# NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Well, the 10,000+ post L&H thread is closed. Doc asked for a new one, as he's on the verge of posting his new stuff. I've had the honor of getting to wear the Oberon proto for a few days, AND I got to see a sneak peek of the new line. It's awesome.

So, let the fun begin...

EDIT: if you need to catch up, start here and work backward https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/new-...ew-huey-thread-1076068-1001.html#post33262802

2nd EDIT: Changed the thread title, for reasons. Read the thread...


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

It was 10,000 posts


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



fearlessleader said:


> It was 10,000 posts


You are quite right. Typo. Typical of me. 10,004 actually. Fixed.

Sparky photo as payment for the error.








And an NTH photo


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

that's cruel... It's like highschool when your buddy meets you the day after a hot date with a chick you like and brags about it...
So, inner bezel gmt?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Sworn to secrecy. BUT I think he's going to reveal stuff soon. Very soon. I will say this, my first L&H watch was the Orthos, which I still own and wear. I bought my son a Phantom. Better. He loves it. I managed to get my hands on the Oberon, and it's extremely nice. I own about a dozen watches, most not considered affordable. The Oberon is as nice as any of them, even considering the price.

The next bunch is better.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Better in what way? It shoots laser beams and controls sharks?


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



dmjonez said:


> The next bunch is better.


I agree wholeheartedly. Having seen the protos, and not being able to say much more, I'll just say that the design, fit and finish are on a different level. I have a Phantom and will likely get an Orthos, wearing the blue Nacken proto at the moment, and preparing to order 2 of the new ones.

If you haven't seen my thread about the evolution of L&H/NTH, it's here:
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=3549138


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

For posterity, here's a photo of the Nacken blue prototype:


----------



## KJRye (Jul 28, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Looking forward to getting the Nacken Modern in my hands soon, and seeing what Doc has up his sleeve for the next release!

Meanwhile...


----------



## Guzmannosaurus (Apr 1, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Would love to see Doc do another square watch. Maybe not as rad as the legends racer,but something square....


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Let me understand what you are saying -- I should immediately sell off my NTH sub preorders because what Doc has up his sleeve is that good?


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

I think you're supposed to buy two more NTH subs and then sell THOSE to fund the preorders for the new models.

That way, you still have two NTH subs and two new models on pre-order.



Tanjecterly said:


> Let me understand what you are saying -- I should immediately sell off my NTH sub preorders because what Doc has up his sleeve is that good?


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



Tanjecterly said:


> Let me understand what you are saying -- I should immediately sell off my NTH sub preorders because what Doc has up his sleeve is that good?


What I am saying is that you need at least one of each L&H/NTH model present and future.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Lol. I'll take your advice under consideration!


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Subscribed.

Eagerly awaiting the "reveal". Crouching Scorpine Hidden Prototype was quite the teaser... But to hear that there are a few blessed enough to have seen said proto, and have such good things to say about it....

I'm intrigued!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Hey, I'll buy it even if it only controls ill tempered mutant sea bass.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



Tanjecterly said:


> Let me understand what you are saying -- I should immediately sell off my NTH sub preorders because what Doc has up his sleeve is that good?


Serious answer: No. If you're looking for a diver, get one of the current models. But if you're looking for something besides a sub, then you'll want to see the next batch. Just as all major brands have models that fill different needs, so will these. Think Aqua Terra/Seamaster, Milgauss/Submariner, etc.

FWIW, I only ordered the Amphion. But having held the Oberon, I probably need that one as well. And having seen (but not held, that's a very exclusive club) the next batch, probably one of those...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



dmjonez said:


> Serious answer: No. If you're looking for a diver, get one of the current models. But if you're looking for something besides a sub, then you'll want to see the next batch. Just as all major brands have models that fill different needs, so will these. Think Aqua Terra/Seamaster, Milgauss/Submariner, etc.
> 
> And having seen (but not held, that's a very exclusive club) the next batch, probably one of those...


So ill tempered mutant sea bass is totally out of the question? Is Doc open to suggestions?


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

I think that's how Doc occasionally refers to his Mother in Law so things might get confusing...



Tanjecterly said:


> So ill tempered mutant sea bass is totally out of the question? Is Doc open to suggestions?


----------



## OvrSteer (Feb 17, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



CMFord said:


> I think that's how Doc occasionally refers to his Mother in Law so things might get confusing...


Yes but can you hack the mother-in-law by pulling out her crown?


----------



## rbesass (Dec 18, 2014)

*Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*


























































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



















Sent via the grapevine

Follow me on Instagram @lifetrekker_


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

^^^ I confess I cannot lie but I like this a lot.


----------



## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



Tanjecterly said:


> Is Doc open to suggestions?


I think as long as the suggestions do not include a nuclear chimichanga...


----------



## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



appophylite said:


> I think as long as the suggestions do not include a nuclear chimichanga...


Or ****ake lume.

Sent via the grapevine

Follow me on Instagram @lifetrekker_


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Gents! New thread; new day; new jokes, no?

I've seen the protos of the crouching whatever, hidden whatever else. It's a beauty, but it is not a Sub. Those who bought the NTH Subs because you love Subs, will NOT be disappointed (I say that with confidence, having handled the Nacken Modern). Those who bought the NTH Subs because you like Doc, will still be happy, because Doc is still and ever will be Doc. Those of you who bought the NTH Subs to be cool, well, you can wear what the cool kids wear, but it's up to you to try to walk the line. You can wear black, but there's only one Johnny Cash. If you like watches with two crowns, and you're smart enough not to be too confused by the choice, chances are you'll like what doc's cooking next. Word on the street is that the protos are finished quality, except we all know doc will insist on tweaking something or other nonetheless. Still, not Subs, so have no fear, plenty of reasons to spend more money whenever doc gets around to spilling the rest of the beans.

Peace and love. And jonezy, it's okay that you confused pages with posts. You were there for us at the start, and that buys a lot of (don't say it, don't say it) ... good will.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

So...about that next model (feel free to share this info elsewhere)...

Whereas I think of all the NTH subs as being generically "the subs" (duh), I've been thinking of the new model(s) as "*The Tropics*", mostly because of the model names, Azores and Antilles, even though, technically, the Azores aren't tropical.

Call me lazy, but "The Tropics" is easier to say (and spell) than "The Archipelagos".

*Inspiration* - I'm aware that some will instantly see a resemblance to the Eterna Kontiki range, and/or the Oris Divers 65, but the real inspiration is the EPSA-cased compressors and super-compressor diving watches produced from the mid-'50's to mid-'70's, by numerous brands, including IWC, Hamilton, Alpina, Titan, Bulova, LeJour, Longines, Wittnauer, and many, many, many others.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, do a Google image search for "vintage compressor dive watch". The bulk of the images that pop up will be cases manufactured for several brands' use by EPSA ("Ervin Piquerez, S.A.", who patented the compressor seal case design for water resistance in 1956), or manufactured under some sort of patent-use agreement with EPSA.

Many of those vintage compressors not only shared a case, but also had similar design cues, typically characterized by 12 applied non-numerical index markers, or dominated by a 12-3-6-9 big numbering layout, often with those numbers in a triangular or rectangular block of color, and often with some fairly funky fonts. These color-block style dials are from where both the Kontiki and the Oris 65 take their cues.

We (that would be me, and my co-conspirators, Rusty, and that other guy) wanted to pay homage to all of the compressors of that era and that look by combining a lot of the cooler details, while updating the straight-lug lines of some of those cases, freshening up the styles a bit, and adding some functionality.

























































You get the idea.

*Current state of things, and plan for pre-order:*

We designed *2 versions of the Azores*, and *4 versions of the Antilles*. Two of the Antilles will be no-date only. Otherwise, they will all have an optional date window.

I've committed to making *at least 300 pieces, 50 of each version*, with the ability to make more depending on how pre-orders go, but I may very likely stop at 300.

I received 6 samples, one for each version. While they are quite good, there are a few small things I've asked my factory to improve or correct, and a couple of things about which we're not yet certain. I'll note those below.

*The updated prototypes will not be completed and sent to me until the end of October.* However, *I will likely begin pre-orders before then*, which means *people will have to take a leap of faith with me if they want to pre-order at the lowest price tier*.

I would ordinarily wait, but I want to deliver these in April of 2017, and so I can't delay the pre-orders until I've got the next set of protos, sent them off to photography and bloggers for review, etc. Because of the Chinese New Year, we need to start production in November.

Because I've only committed to 300, because I'm asking the factory to make some changes, and because movement prices tend to fluctuate until you actually buy them, *I'm awaiting my factory to give me an updated production cost estimate*, and as such, *FINAL PRICING AND PRE-ORDER PRICING HAVE NOT BEEN FINALIZED YET.

*That said, *I know - for certain* - that *these will be more expensive to make than the subs, and therefore they'll be priced higher, by at least 20%, if not 25%.

*The beads of rice bracelet is more expensive to produce than a typical three-link oyster. Giving the bracelet a two-tone finish adds to the cost. The expansion clasp costs as much as the bracelet. The complexity of the case design and finishing drove up the cost.

And, *we've decided to use the Swiss-made STP1-11 automatic movement in this one. *I like what I've read about it, and I believe it'll be superior to the other entry-level Swiss-made calibres from ETA or Sellita.

*General Issues with the current protos - *

Right now, the protos are good enough to envision the final product, but not good enough that I can send them to my photographer or out to bloggers, and I don't want to spend the next 6 months explaining to people how the finished product will be different than the pics on my website.


The bezel lume is weak on all of them. They'll all be improved, but with the thin font of the Antilles' 12-hour bezel, I'm not promising it'll work as a night-light. The broader lines of the Azores' 60-minute count-down/count-up bezels should be quite adequate (yes, the bezels are both count-down and count-up).


The fit of the end-links is okay when looking at them from a normal viewing distance, but in close-up photography, there are some slight gaps visible. We're re-tooling the end-links for a better, tighter fit with the lugs.


The crown lume isn't right yet. The protos just have green C3 in the crown engraving, so it looks white and glows green, but we're going to make it like the NTH subs, where the lume just looks metallic gray in the daylight, but glows either blue or green to match the dial/bezel lume.


The cross-hatch pattern on the bezel crown _may_ be improved. Right now it's sort of waffle, rather than the thin grid-lines I was envisioning (like on many of the vintage compressors)


I neglected to give my factory a case-back design before they started making the protos, and as such, the current protos have completely blank case-backs. I've since given the factory a design, which will be reminiscent of the EPSA-diver's bell logo on many of the EPSA case-backs. We (*meaning my factory and I*) are discussing whether to make it engraved or stamped.

*Engraved:*









*Stamped:*










We will be using a new expansion clasp, which has a number of improvements over the clasps currently used by most micros. However, we'll be the first to get it with an 18mm width (the lugs are 20mm; the bracelet tapers). That 18mm clasp was not ready yet when we got the protos, but the updated protos should have them. The current protos just have un-marked double-locking/folding diver's clasps.

This is a really bad pic of the 20mm clasp. The finish on ours will be reversed - polished top-section, with brushed sides, to match the bracelet links, with the NTH logo engraved on it.

Aside from the stepped/two-layer surface, the other improvements over existing expansion clasps are structural - spring-bar attachment at both ends, instead of a Y-shaped link at one end, and a reinforced hinge at the other.










For the *Antilles*, the bezel numbers were printed a little too far to the outside of the bezel, leaving a small gap at bottom, and distortion at the top. We'll be adjusting those by pulling them all inward.

Specific notes about each/and of the versions will accompany the pics to follow.

*SPECS:

*

316L stainless steel case - 40mm diameter x 48mm lug-to-lug x 12mm thickness with 20mm lug width and solid 316L caseback
200m WR
Double-domed AR sapphire crystal with raised, exposed edge
Swiss-made STP cal. STP1-11 automatic movement - full specs available on demand 24/7 via the Google machine.
Screw-down crown for both movement and bezel operation

*Antilles* - Non-numerical indices. 4 colors planned. Two of those, Black and White, will have optional date windows, with the date wheel matching the dial color. The other two colors, blue and champagne, will be no-date only.

All of the Antilles bezels will be 12-hour bezels with BG W9-lumed markers in a Bauhaus/Sci-Fi font our lead designer cooked up.

The *Black and Blue* Antilles will have brushed-metal-framed handsets and indices, both with BG W9 lume.

The black dial will be offered with or without a date window, located between 4 and 5. The sunray finish is subtle, all but impossible to see without bright light:

















The blue dial will be no-date only. The bezel will look darker or lighter depending on the lighting conditions:

















Again, we're going to improve this lume all around, especially on the bezel, something like this:









And the crown glow will match the dial:









The *Champagne* Antilles will be no-date only.

My factory and I are arguing about the handset and indices. It looks to me like they are "gilt" (PVD gold plated) with BG W9 lume, which I like.

But when I met with my guy from the factory yesterday, neither of us could remember if that's what I specified, and he insisted they only LOOKED gilt because they were reflecting the dial colors, but whatever the truth, I told him to keep them the way they are, so...I dunno, they look gilt to me:









The champagne color really shifts a lot depending on the angle and the light, ranging from a dark caramel to a more orangey-amber:









The *White* Antilles will be a full-lume dial.

The handset will be no-lume, skeleton-style, with blacked-out frames. However, these actually have the BG W9 lume patches.

The indices are currently just brushed metal frames with BG W9 lume, like the blue and black versions. However, I think it will look better if the frames are blacked out, to match the handset. Unfortunately, the combination of the indices' shape, their thinness (especially the lume patches), the order of processes, and the way lume runs downhill, this is a challenge to do. I'm not sure yet what the solution is, but it may end up being we replace the lume on the indices with white paint, and the beveled inner ends may show the exposed metal under the black PVD.

















Again, we're considering how to black-out the frames of the indices, and if we replace the lume with white paint, the indices will just look like solid black rectangles in the dark:









And again, the crown lume will also be blue:









Please understand that while I've said there are still some changes/updates under consideration, _that does NOT mean I want people here lobbying me one way or the other, or suggesting any other changes_.

_*These designs are final*_, subject to the small details noted above, which I will decide in consultation with my factory, and let you all know when the decisions are made.

*Azores* - 12-3-6-9 big-number/triangle markers with a custom old-school font and a sandpaper center dial section, as seen on the vintage NTH sub models.

2 colors planned, black with light-green C5 markers, and black with beige "vintage" lume markers.

No changes or updates planned for these bad boys, other than improving the bezel lume.

























































*EDIT* - I forgot to mention - as you can see, the dial markers and hands of the Azores glow green. However, to get the bezel markers to be white, we decided to use BG W9, so the lume will be two-tone on the Azores, green on the dial, blue on the bezel. Depending on how good your eyes are at distinguishing color, you can somewhat see that here:









The case will have a polished top section with a very thin edge surrounding the crystal, which is double-domed AR sapphire with a raised, exposed edge.

The case sides will be vertically brushed (up and down from crystal to caseback). The lugs will be brushed lug-to-lug, with a polished chamfer:









The current protos have an 11.5mm case thickness, however, the final production version will be 12mm thick. The protos actually contain Miyota 9015's, not the STP movement, which is just a tad thicker, but the dial height requires us to make the caseback 0.5mm more dished.

Other than the 0.5mm deeper caseback, the case itself will be unchanged.

































Currently the same thickness as the subs, but appears thicker due to the differences between case shape, and of course internal vs. external bezel.

























Despite the nearly-identical dimensions the Tropics will likely wear a little larger than the subs, due to the all-dial look:

















I will be bringing these with me tonight when I meet HKEd and the Hong Kong WIS for dinner. I showed them to Sujain, Chip will see them tonight, there were a couple of WUS members who got to see them at the show yesterday, and Iliyan got to see them when we met for drinks last week.

Tomorrow, I'll be giving them back to my factory so they can make the changes noted above. My hope is that between my pics (I've got some more), Iliyan's impressions, and anything said by anyone else who's seen them, people won't feel like they're just taking my word regarding the quality. These are every bit as good as the subs, in every way.

I gotta go meet Suj and Chip for breakfast. I'll try to check in again later.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

I really thought I'd be in for the full lume Antilles but now I'm all about the vintage Azores.

Looks like a few more winners, Doc. Congratulations!


----------



## MEzz (Jan 22, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Blue or black Antilles, that is the question.


----------



## NSG1Tausend (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Vintage Azores all the way, nice Doc, still loving my stealth Phantom!
Regard's
Robt


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

I KNEW it would be an NTH model.
I am surprised to see that the Kontiki did not inspire it.
Here is my prediction on this new NTH Model...the Azores will sell out before the others.
At least in my eyes the Azores is my favorite model out of all of them.


----------



## Laparoscopic Yoda (Nov 4, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Damn you, Chris. Now I want one.

You suck.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Told you he'd reveal something soon. Didn't know it was going to be THAT soon, but I'm good with it.

Oh, and I'm getting the white one.


----------



## cxg231 (Apr 16, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



kendalw3 said:


> Subscribed.
> 
> Eagerly awaiting the "reveal". Crouching Scorpine Hidden Prototype was quite the teaser... But to hear that there are a few blessed enough to have seen said proto, and have such good things to say about it....
> 
> I'm intrigued!


+1 I've been wanting a dual crown for some time now. Almost bought a Gerlach Navigator but wasn't super impressed with the specs. Almost bought the Aevig Balour but it's a little more than I wanted to pay. Both great micros though, IMO.

Edit: Seeing the photos doc posting, I'm intrigued. Love the puck shaped case and although I don't like the Kontiki I am digging the Azores.


----------



## Uberyk (Nov 30, 2010)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

That's pretty crazy. A few months back I picked up an Elgin inner bezel case and was kicking around a couple of kontiki styled renders as options. 
Doc did a much better job of execution.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

The blue Antilles is my favorite so far...very nice!









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Oh, God, here we go again.

Are you trying to bankrupt me, Doc? My wife is going to be severely unhappy with me.

Another frickin' home run.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Vintage Azores or white Antilles, that is the question (sadly I doubt there will be budget for both). Either way I'm 100% in love.


----------



## SigmaPiJiggy (Mar 19, 2016)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

I may be committing an egregious faux-pas - but even though pricing is not finalized, do you have a ballpark?

Especially curious because I read all about this STP movement and I'm psyched about it/wondering about how much more expensive it is over a 9015.

Both watches look completely badass, btw.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

The Azores might seriously scratch my Kontiki itch... (I love that vintage Titan you posted). Have to say that I really like both of the new designs, but will wait for a bit before showing them to the wife.

Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



SigmaPiJiggy said:


> I may be committing an egregious faux-pas - but even though pricing is not finalized, do you have a ballpark?
> 
> Especially curious because I read all about this STP movement and I'm psyched about it/wondering about how much more expensive it is over a 9015.
> 
> ...


I thought I read in his post 20-25% higher than the subs...


----------



## SigmaPiJiggy (Mar 19, 2016)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



GlenRoiland said:


> I thought I read I his post 20-25% higher than the subs...


Reading comprehension fail? A lot of info in that post lol.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



SigmaPiJiggy said:


> I may be committing an egregious faux-pas - but even though pricing is not finalized, do you have a ballpark?
> 
> Especially curious because I read all about this STP movement and I'm psyched about it/wondering about how much more expensive it is over a 9015.
> 
> ...


Ballpark is 20% to 25% more than the subs, so, anywhere from $700-$800, with pre-orders starting maybe around ~$450-ish.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

I forgot to mention - as you can see, the dial markers and hands of the Azores glow green. However, to get the bezel markers to be white, we decided to use BG W9, so the lume will be two-tone on the Azores, green on the dial, blue on the bezel. Depending on how good your eyes are at distinguishing color, you can somewhat see the difference in that wrist/lume/steering wheel shot I posted.


----------



## domoon (Apr 13, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Beautiful! The new clasp, and finally a SWISS movement!! Won't be long until doc put a "Swiss made" stamp on the dial 

Sent from my SM-E500H using Tapatalk


----------



## gcmarx (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Dat champagne though...that might have to happen.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Doc, I have only one thing to say to you:









I saw the pics of the Antilles and I thought, 'Nice, but the dial design isn't for me,' so I didn't feel too much....

And then I scrolled down to the Azores....

CURSE YOU DOC!!!!!!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

The Antilles does little for me, any of them,but the Azores? Mikey likey!


----------



## Guzmannosaurus (Apr 1, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Antilles is on point, great work Doc


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

You said that so much better than I.



appophylite said:


> Doc, I have only one thing to say to you:
> 
> View attachment 9276738
> 
> ...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

For me it will be the Azores although I am intrigued by the blue Antilles.

But damn it, now I am the one analyzing the pictures pixel by pixel to determine which one is best. I keep on going back and forth.


----------



## WorthTheWrist (Jan 1, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



MikeyT said:


> The Antilles does little for me, any of them,but the Azores? Mikey likey!


Interesting. The exact opposite for me.

But black versus blue versus champagne is going to be a tough choice.


----------



## domoon (Apr 13, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

My favorite would be white antilles and vintage lumed azores. 
On the other hand, I wonder how much traffic jump worn and wound get after the reveal. Googled epsa compressor case and theirs are on top of the search result.

Sent from my SM-E500H using Tapatalk


----------



## the5rivers (Mar 10, 2016)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Damn Doc. Another set of beautiful pieces. I am loving the blue Antilles and the black with green Azores. Glad I didn't get a second Nacken.

Also, damn you.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## OvrSteer (Feb 17, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Best of luck, Doc.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

o|o|o|


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

And to think I emailed doc asking him to not forget KonTiki and Seawolf /MKII in his homages.

Now the Azores is great, but I'm thinking of the Antilles which won't "conflict" with my KonTiki. That blue is nice, but as in the Nacken blue, it has no date. And my phantom with white lume dial ticks that box... So it might end up black Antilles with date.

Doc --- please give me a chance to refresh my budget... Please!


----------



## NinthSphere (Jul 28, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

 It's not often I see a watch model where I love all of the variations. The Azores & Antilles both make me wish I had *ALL* the money.


----------



## Opensider (Oct 12, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Many congrats Doc on what I'm sure will be another massive success for you! It looks like I will be ordering yet more NTH watches!

If you don't mind I have question: I note that you have positioned the crowns at exactly the 2 o'çlock and 4 o'clock position. Chip has also done the same with his Balaur, as have other recent dual-crown watches such as the River Watch Company's Tiber. I find this interesting because all the historical dual-crown compressor watches, such as those included in the photos you posted earlier in this thread, have the crowns slightly closer to the 3 o'çlock position i.e. closer together. I'm wondering if this is just because that's most peoples' (including your) preferred appearance (it's not mine by the way - I prefer the "historical"/closer together crown position) or that there is a mechanical/manufacturing reason for this crown placement? Thanks.

Enjoy the rest of your time in Hong Kong and safe travels home!


----------



## RTea (Jun 3, 2010)

*Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Holy moly those are gorgeous and exactly what I've been looking for. Beautiful compressor style case, drool worthy BOR bracelet, and finally a smaller and less cumbersome version of the infamous micro brand racheting clasp. *Slow golf clap*

The only thing that could make it more perfect to me is if I could combine the Antilles dial with the Azores hands and bezel. I might have to buy both the vintage Azores and black dial Antilles and just flip the one that doesn't hit the high notes as hard.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



Opensider said:


> ...I'm wondering if this is ... because that's most people's (including your) preferred appearance ... or that there is a mechanical/manufacturing reason for this crown placement?...


Yes.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

The thing that would help me make a decision would be for you to send me some of those prototypes.

I'll gladly do rigged and favorable reviews. Since you're clearly expanding your range, I am applying for a position like Billy Mays.

*I will be your Billy Mays hawking OxiClean late at night on low view pay cable*.

What do you have to lose? Your pride? I'll take care of that! You'll have none left!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



Tanjecterly said:


> The thing that would help me make a decision would be for you to send me some of those prototypes.
> 
> I'll gladly do rigged and favorable reviews. Since you're clearly expanding your range, I am applying for a position like Billy Mays.
> 
> ...


Now you're talking! I like the direction of this. Good opportunity to roll out some new jokes and keep it clean.

EDIT: I meant to add: doc, for jiminy's cricket's sake, can't we have some consistency and parallel structure? If it's going to be "the subs," it can't also be "The Tropics." The Subs and The Tropics or the subs and the tropics. I suggest capitals--the whole "proper noun" thing--but ironically, remember that it's improper to capitalize "proper." That's all. Pardon the foregoing, but my dog couldn't pee so we went to the vet and had some surgery. Dog's fine but those kidney stones weighed about $3000. Bit punchy this morning.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

What did I tell you guys? These are fantastic. The prototypes are really production quality, the changes that Chris is talking about are very minor. I was really impressed when I saw them. Just like the subs, these punch way above their price tags.

The black Antilles has a very subtle sunburst and a deep black kind of inky color. With a nice black strap it will dress up nicely, which I intend to do with mine. The blue is the one that caught me by surprise. It looks way better in person because the blue is very hard to capture. It's a dark deep blue, reminds me of the Nomos Zurich Blaugold. The sunburst on the blue is more obvious than on the black and it really catches the light. The white and champagne ones have a ton of character. The white looks very elegant.

The Azores are also awesome. The center of the dial has the same texture as the vintage subs and that creates a really nice contrast with the rest of the dial. I was not a fan of the Kontiki et al, but really like those. The cases are very complex and the finishing is a definite step from what I've seen from other micros. They fit my 6.75" wrist like a glove, I didn't want to take it off my wrist when it was time to leave the bar where I met Chris. The crowns are also similar to the subs, with a nice feel. Lastly, I am not a bracelet guy, but it's obvious to me that the bracelet is high quality, it conformed to my wrist perfectly. The Tropics are totally awesome!

Here are some pictures taken in terrible light at the bar after a few beers.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



Iliyan said:


> The blue is the one that caught me by surprise. It looks way better in person because the blue is very hard to capture. It's a dark deep blue, reminds me of the Nomos Zurich Blaugold. The sunburst on the blue is more obvious than on the black and it really catches the light. /QUOTE]
> 
> You and Doc had me when you mentioned the blue of the Nomos Blaugold. I'm a sucker for dark blue sunburst dials and I'm glad Doc has created one in spite of my incessant requests.
> 
> Looks like I'll be getting a blue Antilles and a black Azores.


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Love the old school compressors from back in the day. This is my favorite and something I would love to wear. The BOR style bracelet is a nice touch and it finishes off the watch nicely. Well done









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



jlow28 said:


> Love the old school compressors from back in the day. This is my favorite and something I would love to wear. The BOR style bracelet is a nice touch and it finishes off the watch nicely. Well done
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed. Looking forward to seeing one on a small wrist. 40mm is a great dimension, but I want to see what the lugs look like. Hey, doc, how about a comparison shot of the Tropics case with the Phantom case, so we can see how the L2L compares?


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Showed the wife, and she noted that it was just like the Kontiki she knows I want. 
I told her that I think I want the Azores (vintage) over the Kontiki, and she was fine with that. 
So... when's the preorder Doc?


----------



## Boltz1976 (Aug 15, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Oh man!

Love the white Antilles, especially after reading Doc's planned changes (skeleton hands!).
Really like both of the Azores as well but will never be able to get both.

Now I gotta come up with some cash.... probably gonna have to purge something out of the watch box.
Or sell one of my kids 

Nice one Doc, looks like you've knocked it out of the park again!

c


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



hwa said:


> Agreed. Looking forward to seeing one on a small wrist. 40mm is a great dimension, but I want to see what the lugs look like. Hey, doc, how about a comparison shot of the Tropics case with the Phantom case, so we can see how the L2L compares?


Raise your hand if you have both a Phantom and the Tropics and you're in Hong Kong drinking right now.

No one?

Protos go back to my factory for revision tomorrow.

So, no comparison pics coming.

My phone can beat up your phone...


----------



## jeffreyt (Mar 31, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

I really dig the blue and the champagne Antilles. So that will be a tough decision for me to make when the time comes. Either way I think that they will both look great on a brown leather strap.

jeff


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



docvail said:


> Raise your hand if you have both a Phantom and the Tropics and you're in Hong Kong drinking right now.
> 
> No one?
> 
> ...


No LH minions? Not a single Phantom? @Iliyan doesn't have a Phantom? The horror!

Rusty, c'mon, man, time to break out ol' rubber arm to give us a side-by-side of the Phantom and Tropic on 6.5" wrist...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



hwa said:


> No LH minions? Not a single Phantom? @Iliyan doesn't have a Phantom? The horror!
> 
> Rusty, c'mon, man, time to break out ol' rubber arm to give us a side-by-side of the Phantom and Tropic on 6.5" wrist...


Go back and look at Iliyan's pics. Look closely. There's one with his Phantom in it.

My phone can beat up your phone...


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



hwa said:


> No LH minions? Not a single Phantom? @Iliyan doesn't have a Phantom? The horror!
> 
> Rusty, c'mon, man, time to break out ol' rubber arm to give us a side-by-side of the Phantom and Tropic on 6.5" wrist...


Of course I do.


docvail said:


> Go back and look at Iliyan's pics. Look closely. There's one with his Phantom in it.
> 
> My phone can beat up your phone...


Here's the picture again for the lazy ones. My Phantom in the background. 








Does that help? Probably not...
My wrist is around 6.75", maybe a little less. The Antilles feels a lot more compact than the Phantom. The lug to lug is shorter and obviously there's a difference in thickness. I would never think of wearing the Phantom with a suit, but that's what I want the Antilles for. It does wear larger than the size would suggest, but it's all dial. The Subs wear smaller, but the Antilles is obviously more dressy. I don't think the lug to lug will be a problem for a 6.5" wrist.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Found that the bracelet off my seiko snkn41 fits the Spectre. I'm intrigued with the look. 

















Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## CRetzloff (Jul 10, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Hey Doc, any chance of changing the 30 minute marker on the Azores to numbers instead of the unfilled triangle? The compressor cases with the BOR bracelet look awesome and will be a very intriguing option since I've never had a piece like those before.


----------



## rbesass (Dec 18, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

I have posted my review of the NTH Santa Cruz...

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-santa-cruz-review-3560666.html#post33307194


----------



## RTea (Jun 3, 2010)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Just curious, but does anyone else like rectangular date window cut-outs vs. circular ones? For some reason I find circular date cut-outs to look more like an afterthought such as on some of the Hamilton models.

That being said, it does seem to flow pretty well on the Azores. Small nitpicking since these models look badass and will have me refreshing this thread until pre-order opens.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

I've started a separate thread up for the NTH Azores and Antilles.........

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-azores-antilles-why-i-hate-doc-vail-3560658.html#post33307482


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

:-dThat's a dick move Hornet99. Now people on your thread will not read and enjoy my witty comments about ill tempered mutant sea bass and Billy Mays.:-d;-)


----------



## Gisae (Dec 30, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

SOO MUCH WANT!!!


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



Tanjecterly said:


> :-dThat's a dick move Hornet99. Now people on your thread will not read and enjoy my witty comments about ill tempered mutant sea bass.:-d;-)


I've been called worse things (and that's just today......) b-)

.........your input on ill tempered mutant sea bass are more than welcome in the new thread |>


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Doc's pretty clear in his post that these designs are final save a very few, very minor tweaks here and there.



CRetzloff said:


> Hey Doc, any chance of changing the 30 minute marker on the Azores to numbers instead of the unfilled triangle? The compressor cases with the BOR bracelet look awesome and will be a very intriguing option since I've never had a piece like those before.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



RTea said:


> Just curious, but does anyone else like rectangular date window cut-outs vs. circular ones?


I prefer rectangular date windows. The one or two that I have with round windows look like small portholes and I can't even read the date.


----------



## CRetzloff (Jul 10, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



CMFord said:


> Doc's pretty clear in his post that these designs are final save a very few, very minor tweaks here and there.


Yeah, I'm asking if the change I mentioned would be one of the very few, very minor tweaks...


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Ok, I'll wait and see with you!



CRetzloff said:


> Yeah, I'm asking if the change I mentioned would be one of the very few, very minor tweaks...


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Always pictured Doc as more of a Vince 'You're Gonna Love My Nuts' kind of guy...








Tanjecterly said:


> The thing that would help me make a decision would be for you to send me some of those prototypes.
> 
> I'll gladly do rigged and favorable reviews. Since you're clearly expanding your range, I am applying for a position like Billy Mays.
> 
> ...


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Not a fan of the date windows on these models at all. I've seen a few round date Windows I have liked but not many...



RTea said:


> Just curious, but does anyone else like rectangular date window cut-outs vs. circular ones? For some reason I find circular date cut-outs to look more like an afterthought such as on some of the Hamilton models.
> 
> That being said, it does seem to flow pretty well on the Azores. Small nitpicking since these models look badass and will have me refreshing this thread until pre-order opens.


----------



## Opensider (Oct 12, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

_







Originally Posted by *Opensider* 
...I'm wondering if this is ... because that's most people's (including your) preferred appearance ... or that there is a mechanical/manufacturing reason for this crown placement?...

_


docvail said:


> Yes.


Thanks Doc. It's interesting to hear that mechanical/manufacturing reasons exist for the 2 o'clock and 4 o'clock positioning of the crowns (as opposed to slightly closer together as per the original compressor watches). Cheers!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



CRetzloff said:


> Hey Doc, any chance of changing the 30 minute marker on the Azores to numbers instead of the unfilled triangle?


Zero chance.

The Azores bezel, as currently designed, can be used as either a count-up OR count-down bezel. Changing either of the triangles to a 30 would make it one or the other, but not both.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



RTea said:


> Just curious, but does anyone else like rectangular date window cut-outs vs. circular ones? For some reason I find circular date cut-outs to look more like an afterthought such as on some of the Hamilton models.
> 
> That being said, it does seem to flow pretty well on the Azores. Small nitpicking since these models look badass and will have me refreshing this thread until pre-order opens.


Date window at 3 or 6 = make it a rectangle.

Date window rotated away from 3, typically between 4 and 5 = make it round.

Looks like $h1t otherwise, in almost every case, IMO.

Exhibits A and B, the Alpina Seastrong Diver Heritage, a Swiss-made dual-crown diver, designed by the big boys, available now for just over $1k on Jomashop:









THAT looks like an afterthought.

So, no, our date window was definitely not an afterthought. In fact, just the opposite, I've actually put a lot of thought into it.

Look at where the window actually IS on our designs, not where you think it would look good, and try to picture a rectangular date window there. We can't just put the date window anywhere we want, the position of the date wheel is fixed.

Chip has the right idea. None of his watches come with a date window. No more debate.


----------



## domoon (Apr 13, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



docvail said:


> Chip has the right idea. None of his watches come with a date window. No more debate.


Really can't argue with that

i type butter on phoney.. sometiems


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



docvail said:


> Date window at 3 or 6 = make it a rectangle.
> 
> Date window rotated away from 3, typically between 4 and 5 = make it round.
> 
> Looks like $h1t otherwise, in almost every case, IMO.


IMO I like a trapezoid at 3:00 like the venerable Timex:










(That's just like my watch but not my photo, didn't feel like going upstairs.)


----------



## gcmarx (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

To respond to the subject of this thread: I think Doc is thinking that he wants me to stop thinking about it and start really pushing for that raise/promotion I've been after :--)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



rscaletta said:


> IMO I like a trapezoid at 3:00 like the venerable Timex:


That looks good, too, in that instance. I wasn't really thinking about alternatives to either circles or rectangles.

But again, it looks good there not just because of its SHAPE, but because of WHERE it is.

I can make the SHAPE whatever I want, but I have no control over how far towards the outside of the movement the date WHEEL is located, which determines how far towards the outside of the dial the date WINDOW will be.

See the wheel?









That's where it stays. I can't move it to wherever the hell I want it.

The movement manufacturer dictates where the numbers align with the crown:









When I rotate the crown from 3 to 4, the date wheel rotates with the movement.

I can rotate the window position 360 degrees/31 days, or 11.6129 degrees up or down from the CROWN, but I have to consider A) readability (you don't want the date upside down, or even just rotated to too awkward an angle), and B) how its location affects the dial, in particular what would otherwise be in that spot, and/or what may be nearby, and how the window looks in relation to that stuff.









Guys, c'mon. I do this for a living. Trust me, I know what I'm doing. The ONLY changes I'm considering are the ones I specifically mentioned in the post with all the pics. NO other changes are being considered, nor will they be considered. Other than those small changes I've specifically noted, these designs are FINAL.

No changes to the bezel markings. None.

No changes to the date window. None.

No swapping in one set of hands for the other.

No swapping in one bezel for the other.

None of that.

These are the designs. We've been working on these since FEBRUARY. We went through SEVERAL rounds of revisions just to get here. And I do mean "WE". The designs are NOT changing, other than the items I specifically mentioned.

Anyone who wants to argue with me about any of the above, email me with your work address and hours, so I can pop by to second-guess and critique whatever you're doing.

It'll be fun!


----------



## allonon (Aug 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Damn. I'm so in. A little disappointed it won't have sparky on it. If I could get the champagne with an orange bezel I would get 2. . (Just cause I need an orange accented watch with dual time and on a bracelet.)

Looks really good Doc. Can't wait to put my order in


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



docvail said:


> Anyone who wants to argue with me about any of the above, email me with your work address and hours, so I can pop by to second-guess and critique whatever you're doing.
> 
> It'll be fun!


You make coherent arguments regarding the date wheel. Some things cannot be moved without extensive reengineering.

That said, I'd love to argue with you and pound the table until your face turns puce as long as I can see and fondle your prototypes.

In truth, I'd be like Ray Milland in Lost Weekend when it comes to your watches.


----------



## ohjav (Aug 18, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

The protos look gorgeous doc, you've really hit it out of the park again. Will wait for more proto photos on some wrists but I have a feeling that an all dial 40mm will probably look a tab bit clownish on my chicken 6" wrists. Then again, if pre-order pricing is only estimated to be ~25% more than the subs then it's definitely worth a try! 
Still waiting on steam punk pocket watch.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Geez, I FINALLY get this thread subscribed to and I feel that I've almost missed the gaddamm pre-order.

Everyone with smaller wrists than me (7.15") isn't also blessed with my octave+ reach larger hands and my minimum 42mm case / 22mm lug standards. Yah, it's a bich bein' in my box.

So although I'm a card-carryin' board member (hopeful officer) of the 12-hr bezel watch club and a keeper of now 7 of them (DLC Khaki Phantom included), I'm gonna have to live my craving for the newest Nth Antilles through my brother in non-military dual-time, @Iliyan.

You people have seen my tackle box full of 22's? Yeah, I can't afford to go there with 20's. My own foibles notwithstanding...*Really, VERY nice Doc*. and getting better with each new model, not just different. 

...and I echo the sentiment about Doc's eventual place in the afterlife, with the added bonus (for him) of never having to vacation with his family again.

Or is that what we are all condemning him to?


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



azsuprasm said:


> Everyone with smaller wrists than me (7.15") isn't also blessed with my octave+ reach larger hands and my minimum 42mm case / 22mm lug standards.


I've similar hands and wrist. Believe it or not, but my 34mm Junghans Max Bill w/mesh band looks and feels fine. So some smaller ones might work for you.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



azsuprasm said:


> So although I'm a card-carryin' board member (hopeful officer) of the 12-hr bezel watch club and a keeper of now 7 of them (DLC Khaki Phantom included), I'm gonna have to live my craving for the newest Nth Antilles through my brother in non-military dual-time, @Iliyan.


As far as I am concerned, you are a co-president of the club! The Antilles will definitely be featured in our club meetings


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Iliyan said:


> As far as I am concerned, you are a co-president of the club! The Antilles will definitely be featured in our club meetings


Thanks! Oh, and if, by a miracle of fate, one of the Japanese movement protos were to be made available down the road, I'd have to wear it and maybe buy it. Even with the "spacey" lugs, I'd love one.

DIBS, Doc. Blue, white or Champagne Antilles with date.

Right?


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

You finally got me, Doc. I'll be in for an Azores.


----------



## hairy (Dec 16, 2011)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

As someone with 3+ automatics who is too cheap for a winder, thank you for the no-date option!

My F72 dual crown forum watch feels honored and threatened.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Damn you Doc!!!

CURSE YOU!!!

ok... not really...

But for reals man! My pocketbook hates you and your gorgeous watches! What is worse, is that you continue to make the choices harder and harder! With the Orthos, it was easy for me. The blue/orange was a easy choice over the red/grey one (for me any way). Black Commander was slightly harder to chose over the Blue Commander (still, the blue is gorgeous!). Then you have about a bazillion gorgeous NTH Subs to choose from. It took me all the way up until the pre-order to lock in my ONE choice, but even now I want at least 1 more of those, but simply can't justify the purchase (or at least not to the Mrs). And NOW you are offering us 4 gorgeous versions of the Antilles and 2 of the Azores. Now here is my dilemma with your latest offering. I like both the Antilles and the Azores. If it were just the Azores, I think I could pretty quickly determine that I want the black/green vs the black/vintage.... so that is mostly settled. But, if I sit here and try to decide between the Antilles and the Azores, that is harder. I can't even decide which of the Antilles I like best. Usually I'm not a fan of Champagne colored dials, but you knocked that one out of the park. My watch box is wanting a full lumed dial, and the Black and Blue are stunning.

I'm seriously tempted to assign them numbers 1-6 and roll a dice to determine which to order. Seems the only fair way. At least it would require less thought!

All of that to say: Nicely done Doc!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



kendalw3 said:


> But for reals man! My pocketbook hates you


Do you commonly carry pocketbooks? Not judging just wondering if this is a thing nowadays. But I pegged you as a dude all this time lol 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## cxg231 (Apr 16, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



docvail said:


> Anyone who wants to argue with me about any of the above, email me with your work address and hours, so I can pop by to second-guess and critique whatever you're doing.
> It'll be fun!


I don't want to argue with you, but I work in KOP - ten minutes from Conshy...come on over and tell me what I'm doing wrong! It'll be fun! :-d


----------



## kingcarlos (Nov 26, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Hopefully NTH can offer DLC watch in near future


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Is this an actual suggestion? It will be binned and the OP will be banned.



kingcarlos said:


> Hopefully NTH can offer DLC watch in near future


----------



## ryguy87 (Jan 6, 2016)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Hey Doc,

I wanted to get on the NTH Sub homages pre-order but could not do so but I really like them and also these new upcoming models.

Kind of random but...Been wanting to ask you this question.
Do you hold a Doctorate degree in Horology or something? Or any type of Engineering... Why does everyone call you Doc? Just curious... Thank you for all the fun threads!


----------



## domoon (Apr 13, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



ryguy87 said:


> Hey Doc,
> 
> I wanted to get on the NTH Sub homages pre-order but could not do so but I really like them and also these new upcoming models.
> 
> ...


iirc he was medic in his military days. But i might remembered wrong people, tho...

i type butter on phoney.. sometiems


----------



## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



ryguy87 said:


> Hey Doc,
> 
> ...*Why does everyone call you Doc?* Just curious...


Because of his skills at surgically removing money from wallets with precision scalpel work


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



appophylite said:


> Because of his skills at surgically removing money from wallets with precision scalpel work


Chris "Doc" Vail from the same bloodline as other famous "Docs" 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



domoon said:


> iirc he was medic in his military days. But i might remembered wrong people, tho...
> 
> i type butter on phoney.. sometiems


This.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

After a little thought (very little, as I try not to think much, unless I'm getting paid for it), I changed the thread title.

Love him or hate him (seems there's both bouncing around there), I think Doc's latest works (particularly the NTH brand) deserve more respect than I reflected in the original thread title. If this one runs over 10,000 posts and 1,000 pages, as the last one did, I thought it would be a shame to have the less distinguished title. If someone's looking for info about the brands, I think this title might help them find it.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



kpjimmy said:


> Do you commonly carry pocketbooks? Not judging just wondering if this is a thing nowadays. But I pegged you as a dude all this time lol
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


From the Mirriam-Webster Dictionary:
(my responses in RED)

Simple Definition of pocketbook
: a bag usually with handles and pockets that is used by women to carry money and personal belongings (My wife, aka boss, does in fact carry a purse. Since all the money I make usually goes directly to her.... yep, this applies)
: the amount of money that someone has available to spend : someone's ability to pay for things (this is what I was actually referring to)

Full Definition of pocketbook
1 - often pocket book : a small especially paperback book that can be carried in the pocket (aka ledger, account balance.... yep)
2 - a flat typically leather folding case for money or personal papers that can be carried in a pocket or handbag (aka wallet... exactly!)
3 
a : purse (see comment 1 above. No, i don't carry a purse, but the wife does. Happy wife, happy life???)
b : handbag 2 (umm..... nope. not this one)
4
a : financial resources : income (This is EXACTLY what I meant)
b : economic interests (and this works too)

All in good fun! -- Cheers!


----------



## Laparoscopic Yoda (Nov 4, 2012)

Question, Chris. Have you tried swapping bracelets to see how the Antilles/Azores bracelet looks on the Sub? I'm curious if they would fit. I'm a sucker for jubilee/beads of rice/small link bracelets.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



domoon said:


> iirc he was medic in his military days. But i might remembered wrong people, tho...
> 
> i type butter on phoney.. sometiems





docvail said:


> This.


Doc'll put you together but it may not be quite RIGHT.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Doc, I'm curious about the Titan that inspired the Azores. I've tried finding info on the company, and all I get it the Indian Titan company that started up in the 80s, resurrecting the name. Do you, or anyone here, know more about the company? It seems like it's been lost, though there are some pretty vintage Titans out there. 
That said, even the wife prefers the Azores vintage to the Kontiki.. it looks great!


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

I'm sorry, did someone mention they need a gorgeous dress diver?









No? Ok then. Apologies for the interruption...


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

MOAR OBERON


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Laparoscopic Yoda said:


> Question, Chris. Have you tried swapping bracelets to see how the Antilles/Azores bracelet looks on the Sub? I'm curious if they would fit. I'm a sucker for jubilee/beads of rice/small link bracelets.


I didn't, and the Tropics protos are back with my factory now, so I can't.

If by some chance the lug holes lined up, I doubt the end-links would look good with the Subs' lugs. The cases and lugs are totally different between the two models.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Looks like you've hit another home run. I'm leaning toward the white or blue Antilles but the Azores look good too. I guess it's time to start thinning out the collection to get ready for preorders. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Now that the shipment of the first wave of NTH watches is approaching I am wondering...
Will the packaging for the NTH watches be the same as the Lew and Huey ones with the only difference being a different logo or will it be completely different?


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Yes, let's all bombard Doc for requests for information while he's suffering from a massive hangover and oxygen deprivation from a long flight, and he is going over the details and QC of the first wave.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

ConfusedOne said:


> Now that the shipment of the first wave of NTH watches is approaching I am wondering...
> Will the packaging for the NTH watches be the same as the Lew and Huey ones with the only difference being a different logo or will it be completely different?


I'm anxious to find out... And I will when they arrive on my doorstep. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

^^^^ This is something that I've thought about acquiring. The dome and the lume look good to me.


----------



## goody2141 (Jul 24, 2013)

Doc, liking the new dual crowns. Seems we used similar inspiration for our designs. The big triangle markers didn't work for my design, but it is working great on yours. 

However, I am happy with where my design went. I just hope it can still move forward with this now available.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

goody2141 said:


> Doc, liking the new dual crowns. Seems we used similar inspiration for our designs. The big triangle markers didn't work for my design, but it is working great on yours.
> 
> However, I am happy with where my design went. I just hope it can still move forward with this now available.


From what I've seen of both, they're different watches, for different markets. Personally, I think it's not in our best interests as watch lovers to make every comparison a contest with only one winner. Take the subs for example. There are dozens of variants out there, many of them magnificent.


----------



## thekody (May 21, 2010)

goody2141 said:


> Doc, liking the new dual crowns. Seems we used similar inspiration for our designs. The big triangle markers didn't work for my design, but it is working great on yours.
> 
> However, I am happy with where my design went. I just hope it can still move forward with this now available.


Different sizes, different designs. There is enough room for both IMO. Many of the people that want a 40mm watch wouldn't buy a 42mm watch. Those of us that want 42mm may not buy a 40. So don't worry.


----------



## goody2141 (Jul 24, 2013)

Was not trying to make a contest of it. Just found it interesting that we both used the same inspiration for our design at nearly the exact same time.

Also wanted to give him props for making the design work.

I agree that they are different watches, for different markets.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG @El_Geek


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Obviously a sunny day in New York! So bright it bleached your black dial cream! ;-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ConfusedOne said:


> Now that the shipment of the first wave of NTH watches is approaching I am wondering...
> Will the packaging for the NTH watches be the same as the Lew and Huey ones with the only difference being a different logo or will it be completely different?


Same boxes. Different logo imprinted on them.



goody2141 said:


> Doc, liking the new dual crowns. Seems we used similar inspiration for our designs. The big triangle markers didn't work for my design, but it is working great on yours.
> 
> However, I am happy with where my design went. I just hope it can still move forward with this now available.


Thanks for the kind words, Eric.

Welcome to the world of micro-brand production. Sometimes we spend months working on something, then see someone else do something very similar. It's not fun when it happens, especially if it forces us to modify our plans. This is part of the reason I don't like to talk about my production plans too far in advance.

It's also why I reached out to Chip to ask about his plan for the Balaur when I heard he was planning to produce it this year. We'd been working on the Tropics since at least last February, and I didn't want to be revealing them at the same time he was revealing his design for the Balaur, which wouldn't have been good for either of us.

I'd been planning on holding off on revealing the Tropics until this spring, but with the first batch of Subs almost sold out, and the prototypes done sooner than I expected them to be, I decided to move our timeline up.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Redneck Road Warrior Lottery Winner?

Your chariot awaits!









Jeep Rock Rat by Hauk Designs | HiConsumption

At last year's SEMA Show in Las Vegas, fans of the rat rod culture got quite a dose of a Steampunk/Mad Max mixture that blew them away all thanks to Kenny Hauk of Haük Designs. As an outfitter for Jeeps, Hauk Designs works to enhance the offload capability of the Wrangler, which actually appears to be an understatement for this monster.

Dubbed the Rock Rat, the build is based off a 1947 Willy's CJ2A body that's clearly been chopped and stretched into the beast before you. And, of course, since this apocalyptic Jeep had plans to romp around in the desert Kenny knew it had to host a diesel engine to power the whole project. So what he got was an old 12V from a school bus that he and the good people over at Industrial Injections and Turbonetics tuned up. Now, the Rock Rat boasts over 700hp and 1,200 ft.-lb of torque.

The beast also hosts 44" Pit Bull Tires on B.A.D Beadlock wheels, custom HID Projector headlights with etched skull logos, repurposed safety glass from an old house for the windshield, a shifter made from a 1960s fire truck pump handle, and a Kicker Audio system embedded in the wormy maple wood interior. And with such a powerful and piecemeal project, we have yet to find a more realistic off-road apocalyptic ride.









I don't know about you guys, but they had me at "wormy maple wood".

Heh, "wood".


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Want!



docvail said:


> Redneck Road Warrior Lottery Winner?
> 
> Your chariot awaits!
> 
> ...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I think that the folks on Walking Dead could have used one or two of these.


----------



## domoon (Apr 13, 2014)

Wormy? Sounds like food reserve for when apocalypse hits

i type butter on my phone.. sometimes.. most of the times.. probably..


----------



## saltddirk (May 23, 2014)

I'll raise you mine....









For European Royalty wannabees, the apocalyptic Bugatti Royale, for sale last time i checked, upper 6 digits
Helas no Wiggly worm wood interior, Bring your own Lunchbox, and an umbrella when it rains

D


----------



## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

I'll toss my $0.02 into this game!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

appophylite said:


> I'll toss my $0.02 into this game!
> 
> View attachment 9371754


But can it run on pump gas?


----------



## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

docvail said:


> But can it run on pump gas?


I think if you crumple up the sheet I drew it on, and stick it in a can of gasoline, it'll run that Post-Apocalyptic Jeep you posted for another 1-2 ms...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

appophylite said:


> I think if you crumple up the sheet I drew it on, and stick it in a can of gasoline, it'll run that Post-Apocalyptic Jeep you posted for another 1-2 ms...


Does it come in blue?

What shade of blue is it?


----------



## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

docvail said:


> Does it come in blue?
> 
> What shade of blue is it?


It does come in blue - specifically, HOOLOOVOO

Hooloovoo - Hitchhikers - Wikia


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Does it come in blue?
> 
> What shade of blue is it?


Blurple ftw!

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

I'm thinking the champagne is the one....


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

The white full lume is the type I am keen on.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

QC on all the subs is done. Except for a handful of defects and a few I plan to keep on hand, they're all on their way to the warehouse.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Quality control consists of 

(a) throwing it to your kids and if the watches survive the manhandling, they pass;
(b) tossing your watch to your dog and seeing what he does with it;
(c) tying your watch(es) to your dog and let him swim in the local pool at night and see if the lume and water resistance work; 
(d) giving the watches to your wife to wear and get her wifely approval;
(e) wielding a tube sock full of Invictas and whacking the watches and seeing if they keep on ticking
(f) all of the above
(g) none of the above


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Good boy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

appophylite said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > Does it come in blue?
> ...


Don't panic. HGTTG


----------



## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> Don't panic. HGTTG


Incidentally, Doc's online story sells towels, if I remember correctly. I might need to buy an emergency towel. One never knows when their towel will come in handy!


----------



## SaoDavi (Jan 28, 2014)

docvail said:


> QC on all the subs is done. Except for a handful of defects and a few I plan to keep on hand, they're all on their way to the warehouse.


When you say "all", is that including the second shipment that has the Oberon's in it? Or were you just referring to the initial shipment?

These sub pics are killing me. I'm getting antsy.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SaoDavi said:


> When you say "all", is that including the second shipment that has the Oberon's in it? Or were you just referring to the initial shipment?
> 
> These sub pics are killing me. I'm getting antsy.


All means all.

They're all QC'd. There is no more QC to do.

My phone can beat up your phone...


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

That's mean that I might get my vintage Naken next week!!!

Instagram: @ the_watchier


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Tanjecterly said:


> Quality control consists of
> 
> (a) throwing it to your kids and if the watches survive the manhandling, they pass;
> (b) tossing your watch to your dog and seeing what he does with it;
> ...


I sincerely hope that Doc pick (g). I might have a heart attack if Doc choose (a) to (f), maybe (d) not that bad. :-d


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Sigh ... probably another 3 weeks of waiting for me, as I had informed Doc that I will not be around for next 2 weeks to receive my NTH watches.

Sigh ...


----------



## scott59 (Sep 5, 2013)

Tanjecterly said:


> Quality control consists of
> 
> (e) wielding a tube sock full of Invictas and whacking the watches and seeing if they keep on ticking


I don't understand why you guys keep talking about a "tube sock full of Invictas". I've seen them in the real world (an acquaintance has quite a few). Any more than one Invicta in a sock is serious overkill.


----------



## domoon (Apr 13, 2014)

Tanjecterly said:


> Quality control consists of
> 
> (a) throwing it to your kids and if the watches survive the manhandling, they pass;
> (b) tossing your watch to your dog and seeing what he does with it;
> ...


You forgot the chewing dog test.

i type butter on my phone.. sometimes.. most of the times.. probably..


----------



## Mezzly (Feb 4, 2014)

scott59 said:


> I don't understand why you guys keep talking about a "tube sock full of Invictas". I've seen them in the real world (an acquaintance has quite a few). Any more than one Invicta in a sock is serious overkill.


The real question is how many invictas can you fit in a sock?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Now that the Amphion is here and settled, I'm ready for the next watch. Bring on the Antilles...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

With all the NTH arrivals, I thought of bringing it back to where it all started for me (and me waiting ony NTH lol)










Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

kpjimmy said:


> With all the NTH arrivals, I thought of bringing it back to where it all started for me (and me waiting ony NTH lol)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bluecionna checking in today as well.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mezzly (Feb 4, 2014)

This from Tuesday for me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> QC on all the subs is done. Except for a handful of defects and a few I plan to keep on hand, they're all on their way to the warehouse.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

JakeJD said:


>


Yay.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mezzly said:


> This from Tuesday for me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sidenote...what FP is that? Conklin or Edison?


----------



## Mezzly (Feb 4, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> Sidenote...what FP is that? Conklin or Edison?


Nemosine singularity 0.6 stub. So 2 small great value brands together.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

Oldie but a goodie










Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

jonathanp77 said:


> Oldie but a goodie
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Amazing shot! I just realized that I haven't done anything to my bracelet to make it fit my 6.7 wrist. Probably this weekend 😁

Instagram: @ the_watchier


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

#fannums









Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Just got my Näcken Modern yesterday. Got the bracelet all resized to my 6.5" wrist and it's tickin' away today. Thanks Doc for a great product. Couldn't be happier.

Paired today with the Dunhill AD200 carbon fiber fountain pen that is one of my favorites.










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

I may be in a hotel in a country halfway around the globe from home... But that doesn't mean that I can't play this game too!

I'll match your Orthos...








And raise you a Riccardo..








Team Lew & Huey for the win!!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaaaannnnnndddddd...

Nacken Vintage Black is now sold out.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Congrats!



docvail said:


> Aaaaaannnnnndddddd...
> 
> Nacken Vintage Black is now sold out.


----------



## m0rt (Jun 9, 2012)

docvail said:


> Aaaaaannnnnndddddd...
> 
> Nacken Vintage Black is now sold out.


Congrats Chris (and the receivers)!

Btw, I know you know that Näcken is a nude guy playing the fiddle by a waterfall in Swedish and Näck means nude. But did you know that Nacken (without the dots) means "the neck" and that you pronounce Näcken just like that - Neck-ehn.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

m0rt said:


> Congrats Chris (and the receivers)!
> 
> Btw, I know you know that Näcken is a nude guy playing the fiddle by a waterfall in Swedish and Näck means nude. But did you know that Nacken (without the dots) means "the neck" and that you pronounce Näcken just like that - Neck-ehn.


Yes I did, no, I didn't, but yes, I did (in that order).

Did you know Scorpène is pronounced "skohr-pehn" (like a pen used for writing) in French, but the Brazilians also have a submarine class called Scorpéne (accent over the "e" tilted he opposite way), and that changing the accent in French changes the sound (and apparently that sounds stupid), but in Portuguese, the word, despite having the accent tilted the opposite way, is pronounced exactly the same way, yet I am 100% certain that 99% of the people who buy one will pronounce it "skohr-peen", and I will LQTM (laugh quietly to myself) if I see any French-speakers wincing nearby.


----------



## the5rivers (Mar 10, 2016)

docvail said:


> Yes I did, no, I didn't, but yes, I did (in that order).
> 
> Did you know Scorpène is pronounced "skohr-pehn" (like a pen used for writing) in French, but the Brazilians also have a submarine class called Scorpéne (accent over the "e" tilted he opposite way), and that changing the accent in French changes the sound (and apparently that sounds stupid), but in Portuguese, the word, despite having the accent tilted the opposite way, is pronounced exactly the same way, yet I am 100% certain that 99% of the people who buy one will pronounce it "skohr-peen", and I will LQTM (laugh quietly to myself) if I see any French-speakers wincing nearby.


It's cool Doc. We all know you're laughing inside because you like to "skohr-peen."

LOL!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## accidentalsuccess (Aug 24, 2014)

Oh the waiting game continues...










Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


----------



## stewham (Oct 23, 2011)




----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

stewham said:


>


Amazing shot... simply beautiful!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hope you're still enjoying the spoils of victory, Stew!




My phone can beat up your phone...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

As others have said, whenever I see a picture of that dog, I see a dog farting.


----------



## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

Tanjecterly said:


> As others have said, whenever I see a picture of that dog, I see a dog farting.


I speak from experience - I've never witnessed or experienced my dog farting out of his tail


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

appophylite said:


> I speak from experience - I've never witnessed or experienced my dog farting out of his tail


It's close though. :-o

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

appophylite said:


> I speak from experience - I've never witnessed or experienced my dog farting out of his tail


How have you EXPERIENCED your dog farting? Actually, nevermind. Don't really want to know.


----------



## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

"Silent, but deadly," is ALL too common an experience a couple of hours after the dog has had anything with dairy in it.


----------



## stewham (Oct 23, 2011)

kendalw3 said:


> Amazing shot... simply beautiful!


Thanks



docvail said:


> Hope you're still enjoying the spoils of victory, Stew!
> 
> My phone can beat up your phone...


Sure am!


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Throwback to a classic...the watch that started it all...


----------



## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

Mine showed up on Saturday! I had a full, rich day, so I didn't have a chance to play with it much until Sunday, but then I got to play around with it and even write up a quick review with photos:

































Review at the following link: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/new-arrival-nth-scorpene-house-review-3615754.html#post33935786


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

CMFord said:


> Throwback to a classic...the watch that started it all...
> 
> View attachment 9465970


I really need to find/make a nice strap for mine. Maybe I'll do some searching and order one for my b-day, which is coming up later this week.

In the meantime... I'll leave this here... too much time on my hands this weekend in the hotel, got a little bored. But it fits. Doc's first watch, and my first L&H (I got the Orthos first, then hunted for the Riccardo!)


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

That strap is from cheapestnatostraps and was $15. Love it! Oh, and I'll leave this here for you...it's before I had the black Riccardo:









And why would you put a watch on a lemon?











kendalw3 said:


> I really need to find/make a nice strap for mine. Maybe I'll do some searching and order one for my b-day, which is coming up later this week.
> 
> In the meantime... I'll leave this here... too much time on my hands this weekend in the hotel, got a little bored. But it fits. Doc's first watch, and my first L&H (I got the Orthos first, then hunted for the Riccardo!)


----------



## accidentalsuccess (Aug 24, 2014)

Sooooo, work travel later in the week and NTHs awaiting shipment. It's a race and I am really hoping that I can wear a new NTH out the door at the end of the week. Must. Not. Refresh. Hourly.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Nice! I received my shipping notification for this Wednesday. Now I don't have to continually put on a spray tan to hide that I am (I was) literally green with envy over others getting their NTH subs last week.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Tanjecterly said:


> Nice! I received my shipping notification for this Wednesday. Now I don't have to continually put on a spray tan to hide that I am (I was) literally green with envy over others getting their NTH subs last week.


Me too. :-d


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



SimpleWatchMan said:


> Me too. :-d


Me three, but est delivery on Thursday. No biggy! Still psyched!?

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

This little beauty is back on my wrist again. Still the most worn watch in my collection!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Mil6161 said:


> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


That really is a great mod to an already great watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone interested, I discovered we still had one Commander 300 Black WITH date left in inventory.

First $500 gets it - Orthos, Commander 300 Edition - Black - Janis Trading Company


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> For anyone interested, I discovered we still had one Commander 300 Black WITH date left in inventory.
> 
> First $500 gets it - Orthos, Commander 300 Edition - Black - Janis Trading Company


Aaaaannnnnndddddd....sold.




That's how it happens, folks.


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

Surprised it took that long.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cowboys5sb1997 said:


> Surprised it took that long.


It didn't. It took about an hour.

It sold as I was eating dinner.

A man's gotta eat somtime, amirite?


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

My L&H, NTH collection:


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Fannum Phrydae!


----------



## ryguy87 (Jan 6, 2016)

Hey Doc,

I just registered on janistrading.com and I am looking for an e-mail address to ask some questions...
I have some questions about the Modern Nacken and would like to ask over an e-mail if possible!


----------



## ryguy87 (Jan 6, 2016)

docvail said:


> It didn't. It took about an hour.
> 
> It sold as I was eating dinner.
> 
> A man's gotta eat somtime, amirite?


Life is so not fair!!! I found about this 4 days later...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Questions? After about a million posts, what questions possibly could be unanswered?! Ask them here, you'll get answers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryguy87 said:


> Hey Doc,
> 
> I just registered on janistrading.com and I am looking for an e-mail address to ask some questions...
> I have some questions about the Modern Nacken and would like to ask over an e-mail if possible!


I buried the link for the contact page in the website because I was getting tons of emails with questions answered by the website. I figured that was the only way to get people to actually look at the info on the site before asking me for the same info. People were just too quick to email me when the contact form was right there, and it made me want to toss my laptop out the window.

If your questions are about the product, they may be answered by the product pages, or perhaps one of the general pages found using the navigation at the bottom of our site.

If none of those pages answer your questions about the Nacken, feel free to post them here. It may be I've overlooked something people would want to know, and the answers will be of benefit to all.


----------



## ryguy87 (Jan 6, 2016)

hwa said:


> Questions? After about a million posts, what questions possibly could be unanswered?! Ask them here, you'll get answers
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks and I want to say hi to you hwa! I actually enjoyed your review on the Nacken Modern prototype. And I have been saving up my money since...
Do you happen to know the reason behind snowflake hands change to matte(?) version from metallic finish?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryguy87 said:


> Thanks and I want to say hi to you hwa! I actually enjoyed your review on the Nacken Modern prototype. And I have been saving up my money since...
> Do you happen to know the reason behind snowflake hands change to matte(?) version from metallic finish?


Because people said I should make the frames of the hands white, to match the markers (or for some other reason), and while I don't always agree with people, I do listen, most times, and in this case, I did happen to agree that they'd look better (or, just different) if we made the frames white.


----------



## ryguy87 (Jan 6, 2016)

docvail said:


> Because people said I should make the frames of the hands white, to match the markers (or for some other reason), and while I don't always agree with people, I do listen, most times, and in this case, I did happen to agree that they'd look better (or, just different) if we made the frames white.


Thank you for the reply. Either way, they look so nice!!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryguy87 said:


> Thank you for the reply. Either way, they look so nice!!!


Cheers.

My phone can beat up your phone...


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

ryguy87 said:


> Hey Doc,
> 
> I just registered on janistrading.com and I am looking for an e-mail address to ask some questions...
> I have some questions about the Modern Nacken and would like to ask over an e-mail if possible!


enquiring minds want to know. Plus, someone here may be able to answer and free doc up to continue his evil plans.....


----------



## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

I just went through the 22 pages of the thread, not sure if it was mentioned but will the C5 version of the Azores with the C5 Kontiki Lume have a date option? And how is the C5 Lume Quality? Wouldn't C3 do the same job but brighter? And great job Doc, very happy with this. My first NTH










Though the crown could use more lume, but maybe it was just my example, it doesn't really charge up or glow. It is no where close to the brightness compared to the rest of the watch.











NTH AzoresNTH Azores


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

AVS_Racing said:


> I just went through the 22 pages of the thread, not sure if it was mentioned but will the C5 version of the Azores with the C5 Kontiki Lume have a date option?


It was, and it will:



docvail said:


> ...*Current state of things, and plan for pre-order:*
> 
> We designed *2 versions of the Azores*, and *4 versions of the Antilles*. Two of the Antilles will be no-date only. Otherwise, they will all have an optional date window...





AVS_Racing said:


> And how is the C5 Lume Quality?


Good.




AVS_Racing said:


> Wouldn't C3 do the same job but brighter?


Not if the job is to be green, which C3 isn't, but yes C3 is brighter, slightly. But C5 has that nice minty green color I wanted, and C3 doesn't, so...C5.




AVS_Racing said:


> And great job Doc, very happy with this. My first NTH


Cheers. I'm happy when my customers are happy.




AVS_Racing said:


> Though the crown could use more lume, but maybe it was just my example, it doesn't really charge up or glow. It is no where close to the brightness compared to the rest of the watch.


Lume brightness is a function of lume quantity. More lume would have required wider, as well as deeper engraving, which would have required a wider and longer crown, which would have upset my precisely calibrated and highly sensitive sense of proportions, and driven me up the wall every time I looked at it.

Lume brightness is also a function of light exposure. The crown typically won't get as much exposure to light as compared to the dial and bezel, so...not as bright, typically.

It was not just your example. None of the crowns have as much lume as the dials or bezels, nor will they naturally get as much light while sitting on your wrist, unless you spend a lot of time with your fist pointed at the sun, and if you do, I'd want to know more about this fist-to-the-sun lifestyle you're living, and I'd wonder if your arm gets tired being in that position for extended periods of time.


----------



## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

^^ Haha thanks Doc, probably one of the best responses I've ever had from a Watch Brand Owner.

I look forward to the Pre-orders, I guess time to start selling off watches.

And another one as DJ Khaled would say.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Took a quick shot of the lume and it is incredible!
Only took a few seconds under a flash light and it is way better than my SKX007.
Is it just me or does it appear a little more on the green side?








P.S. I still love the watch and the crown matches the lume. I have already worn and sized this so I do not intend on sending it back.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Here is the lume comparison.
Left is the SKX007 and Right is the Scorpene.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ConfusedOne said:


> Took a quick shot of the lume and it is incredible!
> Only took a few seconds under a flash light and it is way better than my SKX007.
> Is it just me or does it appear a little more on the green side?


I'm going to go out on a limb and assume this question is directed at me.

The lume is BG W9. It glows blue.

Yes, the pics you've been posting do appear to be a bit on the greenish side.

Your phone may not be feeling well.



ConfusedOne said:


> P.S. I still love the watch and the crown matches the lume. I have already worn and sized this so I do not intend on sending it back.


That's a relief. I thought I might have to explain why we don't accept returns of used watches. You'd be surprised how many people are angered when they hear that.



ConfusedOne said:


> Here is the lume comparison.
> Left is the SKX007 and Right is the Scorpene.


Is it just me, or does the Seiko look greener, and the Scorpene look bluer, now that you put them next to each other?


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and assume this question is directed at me.
> 
> The lume is BG W9. It glows blue.
> 
> ...


I agree that it might just be my phone.
Still been rocking the 5C for the past 2 years so I might need to upgrade this year.
Thanks for the response! 
This is why I think micros are for me. 
I can't exactly call up the head honcho of Hamilton or Seiko and ask them about my watch in a few minutes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ConfusedOne said:


> I agree that it might just be my phone.
> Still been rocking the 5C for the past 2 years so I might need to upgrade this year.
> Thanks for the response!
> This is why I think micros are for me.
> I can't exactly call up the head honcho of Hamilton or Seiko and ask them about my watch in a few minutes.


Note to self: complete and submit applications for head honcho positions at Hamilton and Seiko.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> None of the crowns have as much lume as the dials or bezels, nor will they naturally get as much light while sitting on your wrist, unless you spend a lot of time with your fist pointed at the sun, and if you do, I'd want to know more about this fist-to-the-sun lifestyle you're living, and I'd wonder if your arm gets tired being in that position for extended periods of time.


I wear the watch on my right arm, crown up when my hand is at my side. It isn't tiring, and my crown will get more light than others who wear it on their evil arm.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Pictures like these make me reassess my choices in life, as in, maybe I should have gotten a Scorpene.

Enjoy!



AVS_Racing said:


> ^^ Haha thanks Doc, probably one of the best responses I've ever had from a Watch Brand Owner.
> 
> I look forward to the Pre-orders, I guess time to start selling off watches.
> 
> ...


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

There were no wrong choices. The only wrong choice was not to buy...



Tanjecterly said:


> Pictures like these make me reassess my choices in life, as in, maybe I should have gotten a Scorpene.
> 
> Enjoy!


----------



## icenian (Feb 6, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ConfusedOne said:


> I been rocking the 5C for the past 2 years


I suppose rocking a portable telephone is harmless enough, but it strikes me as somewhat eccentric. In Britain one tends to constrain one's rocking to babies.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



icenian said:


> I suppose rocking a portable telephone is harmless enough, but it strikes me as somewhat eccentric. In Britain one tends to constrain one's rocking to babies.


Dry humor FTW!


----------



## icenian (Feb 6, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Dry humor FTW!


Regretfully one is not acquainted with this abbreviation. A vernacular ejaculation, perchance?


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> That's a relief. I thought I might have to explain why we don't accept returns of used watches. You'd be surprised how many people are angered when they hear that.


That's why I haven't unboxed mine yet. Been afraid to convert it to used status!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



icenian said:


> Regretfully one is not acquainted with this abbreviation. A vernacular ejaculation, perchance?


FTW = "For the Win"

Urban Dictionary: FTW

"For The Win."

An enthusiastic emphasis to the end of a comment, message, or post. Sometimes genuine, but often sarcastic.

Originated from the game show Hollywood Squares where the result of the player's response is expected to win the game.
_Bob: Your 1up t-shirt rocks 
Sally: 1up t-shirts ftw._


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pre-orders for the Tropics will start at 9am Eastern Daylight Time (New York, GMT-4) on Monday, 10 October 2016 (Columbus Day in the US, Thanksgiving in Canada, apparently).

FAQ's about the NTH Tropics, pre-orders and delivery timeline

Brands - NTH - Tropics - Janis Trading Company


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

^ so let it be written


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

My poor wallet has barely recovered from the last pounding.



docvail said:


> Pre-orders for the Tropics will start at 9am Eastern Daylight Time (New York, GMT-4) on Monday, 10 October 2016 (Columbus Day in the US, Thanksgiving in Canada, apparently).
> 
> http://www.janistrading.com/blog/faqs-about-the-nth-tropics-preorders-and-delivery-timeline/
> 
> Brands - NTH - Tropics - Janis Trading Company


----------



## accidentalsuccess (Aug 24, 2014)

Then you should have lots of points to spend!

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NTH Tropics Pre-Orders, and the DC Micro-Brands Meetup![UNIQID]

Hey there -

I'm writing to let you know about our *next models, the Tropics*, which *start pre-orders next week*, and also to tell you about an exciting event happening next month.

*Saturday, November 5th* *from 11am to 3pm* will be the first ever DC Metro Microbrand Meetup & Get-Together, co-organized by The Time Bum, with more than a dozen microbrands being represented (including Lew & Huey and NTH), giveaways of watches and other swag, a Q&A panel discussion, and watch enthusiasts from all over the region coming to show off their collections.

This is your chance to meet the people behind some of your favorite brands (and, uhm, me). Click that link above for full details. Hope to see you there!

With that favor to the Time Bum paid off, let me get to the Tropics...

*TROPICS PRE-ORDER*

Pre-orders for the Tropics will begin at precisely *9am Eastern Daylight Time* (New York, GMT-4) next *Monday*, *October 10th* (Columbus Day in the USA, Thanksgiving Day in Canada).

Because of the frenzy which occurred with our last pre-order, *we have decided to double the number of each model available at each pre-order price*.

*Below is a suggested list of preparations to avoid problems during pre-order. 
*


*If you don't already have one, create a customer account before pre-orders start, *so you're not keying in personal data as others are checking out.


*Confirm both your billing address and shipping address are correct in your customer account address book.*
Be sure your *billing address* is *exactly* as it appears on your monthly statement if you plan to use a *credit card*, especially if you are outside the USA. Address mismatches - even a single character difference - can cause problems at checkout.

Be sure your shipping address is confirmed if you plan to use PayPal. We will notship to PayPal addresses which are not eligible for seller protection.

Access your customer account using the link at the top of the site:











*Take a look at the photographs* on each product page, and be aware of theplanned changes listed in our blog post about the Tropics.


Familiarize yourself with the *options* on each product page:










*Date windows* (located between the 4 and 5 o'clock markers) *are optional for all Tropics* models *EXCEPT* the BLUE and CHAMPAGNE Antilles, which will be no-date only.

*All Tropics will come on a 7-llink "Beads of Rice" bracelet, and one tropic-style strap is already included.* Save $5 when you add one of our natural rubber straps or an additional tropic-style strap to your cart from the watches' product pages.


*Redeem your rewards points for coupon codes prior to pre-orders starting*, using the rewards widget at the bottom of our website.

Click "Redeem" to convert points to coupon codes, or "My Rewards" for a record of points you've already redeemed, and any unused codes:




















*Be aware of our large order discounts.* Orders over $800 will ship free, andorders over $1000 will receive an automatic 5% off.



[*=left]*Familiarize yourself with our checkout process:
*










​

*Be logged into your customer account prior to pre-orders starting.

*
*Be aware that we will be actively monitoring pre-orders in real-time, so that we can add inventory quickly when models sell out at each price tier*. If you see one of the Tropics is sold out, try refreshing the page, and please bear with us as we try to keep up.



Thank you all for your enthusiasm and interest in the new line of NTH watches!

Cheers,
Chris Vail
Janis Trading Company


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

CMA22inc said:


> My poor wallet has barely recovered from the last pounding.


TWSS


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Just wanted to update the pic of my lume.
Instead of using a flash light to light it up I stood out in the sun in the afternoon for a few minutes.
Here are the results.









Turns out it was actually the light I used rather than my phone.
I still can't get a good pic of the crown lume yet, but one day I will.
An undeniable neon blue....one of my favorite colors!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those who give a crap what I think -

https://www.wristwatchreview.com/2016/10/05/interview-with-a-watch-maker-chris-vail/


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> For those who give a crap what I think -
> 
> https://www.wristwatchreview.com/2016/10/05/interview-with-a-watch-maker-chris-vail/


?

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> For those who give a crap what I think -
> 
> https://www.wristwatchreview.com/2016/10/05/interview-with-a-watch-maker-chris-vail/


Well done Doc!


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> For those who give a crap what I think -
> 
> https://www.wristwatchreview.com/2016/10/05/interview-with-a-watch-maker-chris-vail/


I am currently going to college for either a Bachelors in Business Administration or Accounting.
I will likely work under a different company in order to truly understand how a business is run.
Seems like if that does not work out I could fulfill my life long dream of owning my own business.
I am not sure it would be watch related, but I would like to think it would be something I am passionate about.


----------



## toosmokeduptosee (Apr 2, 2014)

Heck of a deal on a Cerberus. $175 current eBay bid. Auction ends tomorrow night at 10:15pm ET

Lew Huey Cerberus Automatic Mens Watch Blue Orange w Extra Bracelet | eBay


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

I enjoyed reading that interview. 

Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

docvail said:


> For those who give a crap what I think -
> 
> https://www.wristwatchreview.com/2016/10/05/interview-with-a-watch-maker-chris-vail/


Excellent ???

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk


----------



## BevoWatch (Oct 7, 2015)

docvail said:


> For those who give a crap what I think -
> 
> https://www.wristwatchreview.com/2016/10/05/interview-with-a-watch-maker-chris-vail/


Thank you for posting that. As a relative noob, now I know more about you. I like what I read.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

ConfusedOne said:


> I am currently going to college for either a Bachelors in Business Administration or Accounting.
> I will likely work under a different company in order to truly understand how a business is run.
> Seems like if that does not work out I could fulfill my life long dream of owning my own business.
> I am not sure it would be watch related, but I would like to think it would be something I am passionate about.


I would advise you that it must be something you're passionate about in one way or another in order for it to succeed.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

ConfusedOne said:


> I am currently going to college for either a Bachelors in Business Administration or Accounting.
> I will likely work under a different company in order to truly understand how a business is run.
> Seems like if that does not work out I could fulfill my life long dream of owning my own business.
> I am not sure it would be watch related, but I would like to think it would be something I am passionate about.


double post


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> For those who give a crap what I think -
> 
> https://www.wristwatchreview.com/2016/10/05/interview-with-a-watch-maker-chris-vail/


good read. As I was reading it I was thinking how long it was, when I hit the end I was hoping for more.

pitched right down the center.


----------



## cbethanc (Apr 23, 2015)

Really a beautifully put together and designed watch. I posted some pics of the black vintage Nacken. The lines around the bezel and sapphire crystal are exquisite. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Great interview Chris. Didn't realize this was your full time gig. 

You'll have to put a picture of the family with sad eyes at the beginning of every new product launch. "Please buy a watch so we can have dinner"

On a serious note, I have the Commander and now a pair of NTH and you do excellent work. I'm trying to free up some funds for the Tropics release. 

Can't wait to see what's next. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

What's next? Yet another Phantom pic! I think I finally caught the dial color accurately in this one.

Happy (belated) Fannum Phrydae, this time on a light PVD Schnato.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

I am really digging this watch on this NATO!
I think I would need to flip a coin to figure out if I like it more on a NATO or on its bracelet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I shot a video for people to see the new extension clasp on the Tropics.


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> I shot a video for people to see the new extension clasp on the Tropics.


Can't get to it, Doc.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> I shot a video for people to see the new extension clasp on the Tropics.


I can't wait to try this clasp on my Antilles....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cowboys5sb1997 said:


> Can't get to it, Doc.


Dunno what to tell you, Bill. It seems to be working fine in my browser.

Here's the direct link -


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Dunno what to tell you, Bill. It seems to be working fine in my browser.
> 
> Here's the direct link -


That I can see, thanks!!!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Just a bump. Pre-orders for the Tropics (Azores and Antilles) open this morning, 9am EDT....


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> Just a bump. Pre-orders for the Tropics (Azores and Antilles) open this morning, 9am EDT....


Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... stop telling everyone. I'll be peeved if I don't get mine. ;-)
20 minutes and counting.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

*PSA*: If you plan to order a Tropic, and you run an adblocking or anti-tracking extension in your browser (Adblock Plus, Disconnect, Ghostery, etc), take a minute to *DISABLE *those on janistrading.com before the pre-order!


----------



## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

^^ I thought I was the only one waking up early for this, but done deal watch ordered, this doesn't seemed to be hyped up as much as the subs, but for some reason I couldn't stack coupons, it was either liking the website or use my points, need to ask doc about this.


----------



## awrose (Aug 12, 2015)

Not quite the only one I guess. I'm in for a white Antilles.....


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

I'm not sure you're supposed to be able to combine points and a coupon but I still tried and went with the points discount.



AVS_Racing said:


> ^^ I thought I was the only one waking up early for this, but done deal watch ordered, this doesn't seemed to be hyped up as much as the subs, but for some reason I couldn't stack coupons, it was either liking the website or use my points, need to ask doc about this.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Ahhh... Azores Vanilla coming my way... eventually. 
I didn't wake up early. It's 6:30 PM here in Bangalore. I won't be getting the watch until next June when I go home to Calgary for summer vacation. So while all of you are happily unpacking your watches in the spring time... I'll be watching a video of my brother doing it for me... I better not find it sized for his wrist. ;-)
Happy ordering.


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

Azores Vanilla just added to the Janis Trading collection.


----------



## Jove (Sep 19, 2013)

In for an Azores Mint and an Antilles Champagne. Process couldn't have gone more smoothly.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

AVS_Racing said:


> ^^ I thought I was the only one waking up early for this, but done deal watch ordered, this doesn't seemed to be hyped up as much as the subs, but for some reason I couldn't stack coupons, it was either liking the website or use my points, need to ask doc about this.


Coupon codes cannot be combined.


----------



## kakefe (Feb 16, 2014)

It ll be my first Janis trading watch, just ordered champagne.. Although i was shocked by the shipping cost , everything went very smoothly 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SaoDavi (Jan 28, 2014)

docvail said:


> I shot a video for people to see the new extension clasp on the Tropics.


Is it possible to get this clasp for the NTH subs? This was more of the type of clasp that I was looking for (extension + push-button) and the 18mm size sounds like it might work.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SaoDavi said:


> Is it possible to get this clasp for the NTH subs? This was more of the type of clasp that I was looking for (extension + push-button) and the 18mm size sounds like it might work.


I'll look into ordering more extension clasps. I won't have them in stock until we take delivery of the Tropics in the spring.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kakefe said:


> It ll be my first Janis trading watch, just ordered champagne.. Although i was shocked by the shipping cost , everything went very smoothly
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The shipping is lower than our actual shipping & handling costs, in almost all cases, and definitely on average.

People outside the USA often don't realize how much more expensive the private couriers are when shipping is arranged from within the USA. I know that the costs are about double for DHL, UPS and FedEx.

Here's a screen shot of a rate comparison to ship to Turkey from our warehouse:


----------



## SaoDavi (Jan 28, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'll look into ordering more extension clasps. I won't have them in stock until we take delivery of the Tropics in the spring.


That'd be awesome, if it worked out. The fold-over clasp was the only complaint I had with my NTH sub in the fit/finish department.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Azores Vanilla gorilla! Scratches my Kontiki itch! (hopefully LOL)


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> The shipping is lower than our actual shipping & handling costs, in almost all cases, and definitely on average.
> 
> People outside the USA often don't realize how much more expensive the private couriers are when shipping is arranged from within the USA. I know that the costs are about double for DHL, UPS and FedEx.
> 
> ...


Ouch! That chart says it all.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Black Antilles no date is now preordered!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Oh and I have to say ordering, especially on my phone was easy peasy compared to a few errors I came across last time. Not sure if it was because of refreshing stock with the barrage of orders or whatever. But this time it went down and Doc took my money faster than I could say pineapples. Well done for the smooth transaction!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> Ouch! That chart says it all.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not quite "all".

The chart doesn't show the taxes collected on delivery. My understanding is that people are more likely to be charged when we send shipments using the private couriers, and the charges tend to be higher, due to miscellaneous fees the couriers add on.

The way we ship is the least expensive way available to us.


----------



## kakefe (Feb 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Not quite "all".
> 
> The chart doesn't show the taxes collected on delivery. My understanding is that people are more likely to be charged when we send shipments using the private couriers, and the charges tend to be higher, due to miscellaneous fees the couriers add on.
> 
> The way we ship is the lease expensive way available to us.


Anyway i m glad you r using usps cause i cannot run away from customs tax if you ship via these private couriers...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Edit: suit yourself.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kakefe (Feb 16, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Tax cheating doesn't seem like a great topic for public posting, but maybe thats just me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


please do not try to spoil the fun i have for my first nth cause nobody can... i can explain you in detail thats not cheating but seems unworthy after your impolite accusations

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Easy guys, all in good fun, I'm sure.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Azores Mint won out (meaning that is what I ordered).

Pre-orders started at 6am for me, and I was laying awake in bed for at least 45 mins before that thinking through the various different models. This was a very difficult decision. I think I like the Antilles more, or at least I think they are "nicer" more dressy, but the Azores fit more for what I want it for. I'm not looking for another "dressy" watch at the moment. And the Azores scratches the KonTiki itch. I'm also interested to see the texturing in the center of the dial up close and personal. This will influence how much I decide to hunt down a vintage Nacken or a Modern Nacken later on down the road.

All in all, I don't think anyone can go wrong with any of these 6... they all look amazing!


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

I was giving a lecture starting at 15:00 local time in France (meaning 9:00 in NY)... Still, I managed to grab 1 or 2 minutes at the beginning while students were busy opening laptops and getting the best seats, and ordered a white Antilles, date.
I forgot using the coupon but in the hurry that was to be expected.

The whole process has been very smooth and fast with the only shock being the shipping costs. But that's on USPS, I guess... I did start the lecture only a minute late or two! That'll be my first Janis Trading watch!


----------



## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I posted this morning in the other thread, but I picked up an Azores mint no date this morning. Added to cart at 9:00am and transaction complete by 9:01.

It will be my first L&H/Nth watch. It is also my first pre-order.

Now, the wait begins.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

I hope the lume will be as good or if not better than the Nth Subs


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

AVS_Racing said:


> I hope the lume will be as good or if not better than the Nth Subs


Undoubtedly will be.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

AVS_Racing said:


> I hope the lume will be as good or if not better than the Nth Subs


I assure you the lume will be just as ****.








Here is what the new NTH Tropics will look like lume wise.


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

docvail said:


> For those who give a crap what I think -
> 
> https://www.wristwatchreview.com/2016/10/05/interview-with-a-watch-maker-chris-vail/


I just read the interview. Well done Doc and "stay the course". It's been a great ride so far watching you manage the helm of your micro watch ship. In my opinion the Phantom was the watch that launched you on this great path of success. I hope it continues for you.

Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

ConfusedOne said:


> I assure you the lume will be just as ****.
> View attachment 9607866
> 
> 
> ...


Keep posting these pics and one of the Azores will join the Antilles.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

His & Hers


----------



## om-4 (Dec 5, 2007)

I ordered an Antilles champagne. After handling one in Hong Kong it's the Tropic that will suit my straw hats best. Had to have it.

Great job, Chris!


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

I got in on a vanilla Azores. This will be my one and only watch purchase for at least the remainder of 2016. Now the long wait.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> For those who give a crap what I think -
> 
> https://www.wristwatchreview.com/2016/10/05/interview-with-a-watch-maker-chris-vail/


Pretty interesting interview.

This bit right here - "*I literally spent three months of my life arguing over 1.5mm. My guy at the factory told me - in a nice way - that none of his other customers are as much of a pain in his ass.*" - that's.. y'know, that's pretty awesome. That's how a indie company should be handling designs - push the factories to do the best they technically can, so that something unique is made.

So, er, doc - I was an ass and I was oftentimes wrong. Sorry. In part due to the engineering (11.5mm yay), in part because I just plain like it (esp based off of RL pics of the final versions), one santa cruz ordered yesterday evening.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Pretty interesting interview.
> 
> This bit right here - "*I literally spent three months of my life arguing over 1.5mm. My guy at the factory told me - in a nice way - that none of his other customers are as much of a pain in his ass.*" - that's.. y'know, that's pretty awesome. That's how a indie company should be handling designs - push the factories to do the best they technically can, so that something unique is made.
> 
> So, er, doc - I was an ass and I was oftentimes wrong. Sorry. In part due to the engineering (11.5mm yay), in part because I just plain like it (esp based off of RL pics of the final versions), one santa cruz ordered yesterday evening.


Passionate people can disagree. It takes a great person to apologise. One can not have enough friends.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Pretty interesting interview.
> 
> This bit right here - "*I literally spent three months of my life arguing over 1.5mm. My guy at the factory told me - in a nice way - that none of his other customers are as much of a pain in his ass.*" - that's.. y'know, that's pretty awesome. That's how a indie company should be handling designs - push the factories to do the best they technically can, so that something unique is made.
> 
> So, er, doc - I was an ass and I was oftentimes wrong. Sorry. In part due to the engineering (11.5mm yay), in part because I just plain like it (esp based off of RL pics of the final versions), one santa cruz ordered yesterday evening.


Welcome back.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Pretty interesting interview.
> 
> This bit right here - "*I literally spent three months of my life arguing over 1.5mm. My guy at the factory told me - in a nice way - that none of his other customers are as much of a pain in his ass.*" - that's.. y'know, that's pretty awesome. That's how a indie company should be handling designs - push the factories to do the best they technically can, so that something unique is made.
> 
> So, er, doc - I was an ass and I was oftentimes wrong. Sorry. In part due to the engineering (11.5mm yay), in part because I just plain like it (esp based off of RL pics of the final versions), one santa cruz ordered yesterday evening.


you won't be disappointed. I love my SC.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

GlenRoiland said:


> you won't be disappointed. I love my SC.


^^ +1


----------



## GoJoshGo (Dec 18, 2013)

Finances dictate no Tropics for me. Hopefully I'll pick up a champagne dial from a flipper when they ship... First Doc pre-order I haven't been a part of. Marriage makes people do crazy (sane) things.


----------



## DrVenkman (Sep 29, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

The Nth is his best yet, and confirmed my decision to get a Tropics. The case on the Nth Sub is watch geek perfection.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Every pre-order reminds me how incredibly, amazingly fortunate I've been to have so many people who continue coming back for more. 

Thank you all - those of you who've been there since the beginning, and those who've come along more recently.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Every pre-order reminds me how incredibly, amazingly fortunate I've been to have so many people who continue coming back for more.
> 
> Thank you all - those of you who've been there since the beginning, and those who've come along more recently.


Keep putting out irresistible products in our price range and we will keep coming back to buy them.

SOB...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

GlenRoiland said:


> you won't be disappointed. I love my SC.


I second that X2, it's my favorite watch.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Now I just need Doc to decide to do a 24-hour pilot, or world timer. Right now I look at the Chris Ward C900 and a Glycine. I'd love to see what Doc would do.

Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> Now I just need Doc to decide to do a 24-hour pilot, or world timer. Right now I look at the Chris Ward C900 and a Glycine. I'd love to see what Doc would do.
> 
> Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


Just buy a Phantom.

12 hours on the dial.

12 hours on the bezel.

Boom.

24 hours.


----------



## Scidd0w (Feb 11, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Pretty interesting interview.
> 
> This bit right here - "*I literally spent three months of my life arguing over 1.5mm. My guy at the factory told me - in a nice way - that none of his other customers are as much of a pain in his ass.*" - that's.. y'know, that's pretty awesome. That's how a indie company should be handling designs - push the factories to do the best they technically can, so that something unique is made.
> 
> So, er, doc - I was an ass and I was oftentimes wrong. Sorry. In part due to the engineering (11.5mm yay), in part because I just plain like it (esp based off of RL pics of the final versions), one santa cruz ordered yesterday evening.


Good choice! You will love it.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Just buy a Phantom.
> 
> 12 hours on the dial.
> 
> ...


But I still have to do the math to make the 24 hours. I want to be able to look at the watch, see that it is 21.45 subtract 12 to see that it is 9:45pm... oh wait...

I guess you're not sold on the one rotation in 24 hours type of watch... So, I won't hold my breathe.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

macosie said:


> I guess you're not sold on the one rotation in 24 hours type of watch... So, I won't hold my breathe.


Find an affordable, source-able automatic Japanese or Swiss movement and I'll talk him into it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> But I still have to do the math to make the 24 hours. I want to be able to look at the watch, see that it is 21.45 subtract 12 to see that it is 9:45pm... oh wait...
> 
> I guess you're not sold on the one rotation in 24 hours type of watch... So, I won't hold my breathe.





rpm1974 said:


> Find an affordable, source-able automatic Japanese or Swiss movement and I'll talk him into it.


There's the CJR Airspeed.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bhmagnet/airspeed-regulator-watch/description

It uses the Miyota 8219, which is a basic three-hander, with a small seconds and a 24 dial. They removed the main (12 hour) hour hand, making it both a 24hour clock and a regulator, if you like that sort of thing.

Orient makes GMT movements, but they don't wholesale them.

Not much else out there that's A) affordable, B) automatic, and C) not Chinese.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

rpm1974 said:


> Find an affordable, source-able automatic Japanese or Swiss movement and I'll talk him into it.


That my friend may be a problem... I'll look into it. Seems everything is Russian or expensive... 
I think the one C.Ward used is a modified ETA 2893 movement. 
Rhonda 515 quartz (just for posterity)
Fortis - ETA 2893-2
That means, technically, the selita could be modified. That said, I'm not a watchmaker and have no idea if such mod is affordable. 
Can buy bulk orders of Russian movements. 
I'll keep looking.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Alpina makes a independent hour hand 24h module for the 2824, but I have no idea how you'd get ahold of it even after the citizen sale


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I've never understood why any watchmaker couldn't just take any three-hander and use it with a 24-hour dial, using a long hour hand, omitting the minute hand, and using affixing a plug atop the pinion for the second hand. I think it could be made to look good, but perhaps only good enough for a mod, as opposed to a production piece. Maybe there's a 3-hand movement out there that could easily (relatively) be relieved of its minute and seconds pinions?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

hwa said:


> I've never understood why any watchmaker couldn't just take any three-hander and use it with a 24-hour dial, using a long hour hand, omitting the minute hand, and using affixing a plug atop the pinion for the second hand. I think it could be made to look good, but perhaps only good enough for a mod, as opposed to a production piece. Maybe there's a 3-hand movement out there that could easily (relatively) be relieved of its minute and seconds pinions?


Hmm wouldn't the hour hand cycle the (24h) dial twice during a night/day cycle?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



macosie said:


> That my friend may be a problem... I'll look into it. Seems everything is Russian or expensive...
> I think the one C.Ward used is a modified ETA 2893 movement.
> Rhonda 515 quartz (just for posterity)
> Fortis - ETA 2893-2
> ...


Not cheap.
Too quartz.
Not cheap.
Not cheap.
Not buying Russian movements.



vmarks said:


> Alpina makes a independent hour hand 24h module for the 2824, but I have no idea how you'd get ahold of it even after the citizen sale.


Not cheap.

I'm sure you guys realize this, but the movement is one of, if not the most expensive component in a watch. Prices are constantly going up, and just because I'm "buying in bulk" doesn't mean the prices suddenly become dirt cheap.

It seems like ETA movements are getting easier to source more recently, but that only means they're available, maybe, not less expensive.

Last year, I asked Fred Amos of Bernhardt two questions - how do I get ETA movements, and how much do they cost?

He told me he gets them from someone who deals in over-supply or odd lots - when someone ends up with more than they need, that guy brokers their sale. I asked how much I should expect to pay for something like the Unitas hand-winder, or basic 2824-2, and if I'd be able to get enough to meet my case factory's MOQ of 300-500 pieces.

He said they cost whatever they cost, and there will be as many available as there are. He never knows how much they'll cost or how many there will be until there are some available, and whatever the price is, you pay it or they call someone else (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it). That's why when he re-released his GMT last year, it was a limited run, and all of a sudden. He got a call about a bunch of Swiss GMT movements being available, and he bought 'em.

I can't run a business that way. I need to be able to source movements reliably, from a source that can hold a price and guarantee supply.

None of the Russian movement manufacturers even bother to exhibit at the Hong Kong show. I don't know if they go to Baselworld, but if they do, I've never heard of micro-brands getting access to deep pools of reliable Russian movements being wholesaled at affordable prices.

None of the Chinese OEM's want to use Chinese movements. I don't blame them, knowing what I know about the reliability and defect rates inherent in the Chinese calibres.

That leaves Japanese and Swiss.

For Japanese, it's just Seiko and Citizen - no automatic GMT's to be had.

For Swiss, you're either looking at Soprod (*cough* pricey *cough*), or modified ETAs (and maybe Sellitas, I don't know), which still aren't very "affordable". I think Eterna has a GMT movement, but I met with Eterna in Hong Kong, and the starting prices of their lowest-cost hand-wind-only movements are more than I pay for a completely assembled watch.

There are a lot of things people ask me to make, or things which I'd like to make, like another auto chrono, or a GMT, but I can't just snap my fingers and get my hands on things which don't exist, or exist, but can't be reliably and affordably sourced.

If Orient ever decides to start wholesaling their movements, including their GMT, or if Seiko cuts the price of the NE88 in half, I promise you all I will drop everything, and sell my children to buy 500 pieces.

Until that day, I couldn't make and sell an automatic chrono or GMT for less than $1,000.

TL; DR - buy a Phantom, or an Antilles, which also has a 12 hour bezel, or buy a field watch with the 13-24 numbering. I've got no plans for a GMT or a 24-hour watch (sorry, @L3wy, if you're reading this).


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Not cheap.
> Too quartz.
> Not cheap.
> Not cheap.
> ...


What about the new Ronda automatic? Also expensive I imagine, but I don't know yet by how much.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm wouldn't the hour hand cycle the (24h) dial twice during a night/day cycle?


This. With a long hour hand you get, e.g., a Meistersinger single-hander, but it's still a 12-hour trip around the dial.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Scidd0w said:


> Good choice! You will love it.


Darn it, Scidd0w. Now I have to wait 3 weeks for a cork strap to arrive...


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Hey Doc, 
Thanks for the thorough explanation. It explains why a lot of the 24-hour watches we see coming out are quartz movements. That's too bad. 
I'm interested in the 24 hour watches partly for fun, as I like some of them, but also as a teaching tool. (The teaching tool is an excuse to get one really.) 
I suspect unless you really want to do one, your heart won't be in it, and that's cool. 
Do what you can, and what you want to do. I think you've got the right idea when it comes to making what your customers want. 
I love my Spectre, and can't wait until the Azores(Vanilla) is on my wrist. 
For what it's worth, if I could have, I would have bought either the Santa Cruz, or the Antilles White as well. 
Anyway, I'll keep watching until you finally manage to find a decent affordable GMT movement (Not necessarily for a 24 hour). 
Oh, don't make another square watch until my budget recovers. ;-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> What about the new Ronda automatic? Also expensive I imagine, but I don't know yet by how much.


I spoke to someone at Ronda's booth in Hong Kong.

I asked, "how much are your new automatic movements going to be, and how long before you'll be able to deliver them in real volume?"

"I don't know, and maybe a year, maybe more..."

I'd expect the Ronda movements to cost less than entry level ETAs or Sellitas, but we'll see.

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> I spoke to someone at Ronda's booth in Hong Kong.
> 
> I asked, "how much are your new automatic movements going to be, and how long before you'll be able to deliver them in real volume?"
> 
> ...


Swiss. Chinese and Japanese would give you a quote and lead times.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> Hey Doc,
> Thanks for the thorough explanation. It explains why a lot of the 24-hour watches we see coming out are quartz movements. That's too bad.
> I'm interested in the 24 hour watches partly for fun, as I like some of them, but also as a teaching tool. (The teaching tool is an excuse to get one really.)
> I suspect unless you really want to do one, your heart won't be in it, and that's cool.
> ...


It isn't even about what I personally want to do.

I didn't have any interest in making a sub homage until I could be convinced there was a compelling business case for it.

If there's enough market demand for something, and I believe I can deliver it, I'll make it. If I'm not convinced the demand is there, or if I don't think I can deliver it the way I want to - meaning the delivery isn't half-a$$ed - then I won't make it.

I also have to look at what my competitors are doing, and the market noise. I've had to adjust my business plans four times in the last year because of forces completely outside my control.

Most of my "bets" are going to be high-percentage plays, in order to reduce risk. A 24 hour watch has a more niche appeal, and as such, is never going to be a high-percentage play. When my business is large enough to cater more to those narrow-niche tastes, I'll consider them more, but for now, I have to stick to my bread and butter.

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> It isn't even about what I personally want to do.
> 
> I didn't have any interest in making a sub homage until I could be convinced there was a compelling business case for it.
> 
> ...


i feel like there's some secret message in there.


----------



## Jitzz (Nov 10, 2014)

GlenRoiland said:


> i feel like there's some secret message in there.


Hidden demonic suggestions by taptalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> Swiss. Chinese and Japanese would give you a quote and lead times.


Meh. You'd think so, but...

Back in 2014, Sujain and I stopped by Seiko's booth to ask about the then-new NE88. The young lady we spoke to had no brochure, no price list, and no information about it, but was eager to show us the new VD series bicompax quartz GMT.

Ugh. As if...

This year, I stopped by Miyota's booth. They had three guys at the front, only one of whom spoke English (and not well). They had absolutely no information to give whatsoever, didn't even have the little stand with the QR code that all exhibitors were supposed to have prominently displayed.

The HKTDC has its own mobile app. You scan those QR codes with it, and it populates the app with the vendor's relevant info. If the exhibitor scans your badge, they get to send you a dozen emails a day as soon as you return from Hong Kong. My inbox is one big "who's that" of the exhibitors from the show. This is the real reason I asked Sujain to get me a badge from his booth, but no dice.

These three clowns didn't even have business cards.

I think we spoke to one Chinese movement supplier two years ago, Peacock, which is the brand name for Liaoning. I don't know if they're trying to be the alternative to Sea-Gull, but these names are for the birds...

Anyhow, I don't remember if we asked for prices, but if we did, we probably got them, not that I'd rely on them, nor consider using the movements if I did.

Eterna Movements Asia was semi-prepared this year. They swore up and down they had a price list somewhere, but couldn't find it when I visited on the first day. They did verbally give me enough information to know they're a non-starter - way too expensive - but then they started to get into this "just so you're clear, we're Eterna movements *ASIA*" spiel which gave me an instant headache, trying to figure out why they needed to tell me that and what the relevance is supposed to be.

There wasn't a single Asian in their booth. The sales guy was from Chicago, and the CEO looked like he should be deejaying at a club on the island of Ibiza. Nice guy, though, just young, and swarthy-looking the way Mediterranean guys who sleep with your girlfriend always seem to be.

What were we talking about? Oh, yeah, movements...my guy in HK is juiced in with the right people. If he can't get something, it isn't get-able. When I need to know what can be had, at what price, and when, I just ask him.

The big exhibitors aren't at the show to quote prices to small players like me. I think the idea is I'm supposed to get frothed up over whatever it is they're peddling, then ask my factory to get it, so that they can say it'll be a year-long wait, at which time they'll sell it to us in a volume which is much less or much more than we need, at a price they'll set after making us wait 8 more months.

This is why dental school seems so appealing sometimes.

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Dental school? Anesthesiologist is where it's at. I have thought more than once about packing it in and doing that, whenever it gets rough. 

Almost always at shows I known better than to ask for prices and lead times there. All I want at a show is your sales vp and head project manager contact info. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> i feel like there's some secret message in there.


There isn't.

Unless "suggestion window closed because it doesn't exist" is a secret message.

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Jitzz said:


> Hidden demonic suggestions by taptalk


Oh, well, yeah. There's that...

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

GlenRoiland said:


> i feel like there's some secret message in there.


If you use the super secret decoder ring and you are able to decode the message you will unlock the special Santa Cruz handset. Dont tell anyone (especially Doc) that I told you.


----------



## tissotguy (Oct 31, 2014)

docvail said:


> Every pre-order reminds me how incredibly, amazingly fortunate I've been to have so many people who continue coming back for more.
> 
> Thank you all - those of you who've been there since the beginning, and those who've come along more recently.


Cheers, doc!

NTH is my first watch from your company and I love it!!!! I actually stumbled upon a posting (should've remember the post and thank the guy o|), that recommended NTH and that's when I started knowing the brand. I guess I've been living under the rock... Anyway, really loving the quality of the watch even the SS bracelet. I ordered custom leather straps for it but didn't even change it until now...It looks awesome and feels comfortable on the original SS bracelet.

Anyway, thank you again and hope continue success in the future and also thank you to the WUS folks here that has been sharing their NTHs beauty...so instead of pictures...how about a video this time...*a day with the Nacken *:-d






Can't stop the feeling....love it...love it...love it!!!

Cheers.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm wouldn't the hour hand cycle the (24h) dial twice during a night/day cycle?


Well, if you put it that way... So much for my mathiness.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Yeah, late & recent joiner to the WIS fraternity (and it kinda does feel like a family, dysfunctional and passionately argumentative at times, but all lovable nonetheless), and I'd dipped a toe into Doc's designs with a 2nd hand Acionna (courtesy of an absolute gent of a forummer from this place) which I'm wearing now & love...have pre-ordered what is currently my most expensive new watch in an NTH Vanilla Azores - super excited about that.. and I now have a renewed hankering for a vintage blue Nacken - original orders hit at a bad time for me, and I've regretted having to bypass ever since.

This place is a veritable house of temptation, and Doc, your designs for me right now are the best / worst offenders (delete as appropriate depending on if you're me, my wife or my bank account) 

I'm looking forward to being among the happy new owners (and no doubt one equally proud WIS family member & designer in Doc) of Tropics posting piccies here in April


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

tissotguy said:


> Cheers, doc!
> 
> NTH is my first watch from your company and I love it!!!! I actually stumbled upon a posting (should've remember the post and thank the guy o|), that recommended NTH and that's when I started knowing the brand. I guess I've been living under the rock... Anyway, really loving the quality of the watch even the SS bracelet. I ordered custom leather straps for it but didn't even change it until now...It looks awesome and feels comfortable on the original SS bracelet.
> 
> ...


----------



## tissotguy (Oct 31, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> View attachment 9623386


Not sure what you meant sir. All I want is to share my excitement and how cool the watch looks. That's all. Maybe not the best song choice...
Cheers.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

tissotguy said:


> Not sure what you meant sir. All I want is to share my excitement and how cool the watch looks. That's all. Maybe not the best song choice...
> Cheers.


Just jokin....all in jest 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tissotguy said:


> Cheers, doc!
> 
> NTH is my first watch from your company and I love it!!!! I actually stumbled upon a posting (should've remember the post and thank the guy o|), that recommended NTH and that's when I started knowing the brand. I guess I've been living under the rock... Anyway, really loving the quality of the watch even the SS bracelet. I ordered custom leather straps for it but didn't even change it until now...It looks awesome and feels comfortable on the original SS bracelet.
> 
> ...


Best. Musical. Watch Video.

EVER!


----------



## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

Interesting read about the movement supply, I'm just wondering any plans on more Exotic materials? Carbon, Bronze, Damascus or use of Tritium + Lume?? Deep Blue does a very good job with their T100 watches but I usually find them a bit big, I'm curious why more dive brands don't use Tritium?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

The best guarantee that doc will never build something, as he keeps saying, is to post the idea publicly...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

hwa said:


> The best guarantee that doc will never build something, as he keeps saying, is to post the idea publicly...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good idea!
I think Doc's next watch should be quartz, large, gold plated, and use an uncomfortable gold plated bracelet.
Something that looks similar to this would be a step in the right direction!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

AVS_Racing said:


> Interesting read about the movement supply, I'm just wondering any plans on more Exotic materials? Carbon, Bronze, Damascus or use of Tritium + Lume?? Deep Blue does a very good job with their T100 watches but I usually find them a bit big, I'm curious why more dive brands don't use Tritium?


No, no, no, no, aannnnndddd...nope.

(And because Tritium is overrated, in the extreme.)


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> No, no, no, no, aannnnndddd...nope.
> 
> (And because Tritium is overrated, in the extreme.)


The tubes are fun. Overrated, but fun. They glow all night.


----------



## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

^^^^










I tried


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

^
I mean they seem like fun, but I don't think they can match the brightness of Doc's **** lume.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

AVS_Racing said:


> ^^^^
> 
> I tried
> 
> ...


I also always wanted a tritium watch... So, I got one. Ball. Very nice. But I have to admit, the tritium does now not seem to be as useful as good lume. In the twilight hours, you almost can't see it, it's at its best at 4am in the pitch black. But then, good lume is also legible then, so I've decided that good lume is better overall, for me at least.


----------



## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

^^ I had this argument too until I tried T100, and flat tubes, huge difference, + you don't have to intentionally "flash it" to have lume. Its on any time time any where.

During camping

















Just a night out, no flash required


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

Man... just when you try to take it easy and not spend any more $$$, along comes a Janis Trading email reminding me that I still have unused Reward Points!!!! 

Too bad the new stuff is 40mm as well (right now I'm wearing my Apollon, so yeah, my preference is for larger 42mm+ watches). Are there any wrist shots of the new NTH watches?

NO. NO! I should be strong...

On the topic of Lume vs Tritium, I like both almost equally. 
I have 2 tritium watches: Ball Fireman Racer and Android Skyguardian T100 but I do have to say, not having to "charge" the dial sometimes comes in handy. Other than that, don't really give it much thought.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I have a number of reasons for not using Tritium.

First off, and the primary reason, is its form.

Superluminova is a liquid. It can take any shape, and be used to create printed markers, or coat the top of applied indices, as well as hands. That makes it very conducive to design - it allows me to create any shape I want.

Tritium is cased in tubes ("Tritium Tubes"). As far as I'm aware, that's the only shape they can take, so it limits what I can do from a design perspective. 

I can't create any shape markers I want, or coat hands with it. I have to make hands the way Ball and Deep Blue do - flat panels with Tritium tubes embedded in the middle of them, and make indices in such a way that the Tritium tubes look "right".

From a designer's view, it's very limiting, and honestly, I think those hands look like $h1t, compared to a standard Superluminova patch on a regular handset. I don't like having to limit my dial designs to only those which will work with straight lume tubes.

I also don't like how the lume looks in the dark. Because the lume tubes are the same shape, and their lengths are not much different, it's harder to distinguish the hour hand from the minute hand in the dark. 

So, for all the above reasons, I don't like Tritium tubes, but even if those reasons didn't exist, there are other issues.

There are only a small number of suppliers, and they're not all fantastic, in terms of delivery and quality, which is disappointing, considering what Tritium costs.

Tritium is a radioactive nuclear by-product. I may be mistaken, but when I made some initial investigations into the rules regarding Tritium, I discovered that importation, storage, and shipment of watches with Tritium tubes requires licensing from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Just to apply for the necessary licenses - with no guarantee I'd get them - would cost me over $14,000. 

I spoke to someone at the NRC, and was advised I should hire an expert consultant to make sure my application would be approved. These former NRC employees make a living inspecting your facilities and safety policies. 

I work from my house. My facilities include a shower and toilet, and my safety policy is to remember not to pull a shirt over my head as I'm walking down the stairs, as experience has taught me that doesn't end well. 

I'm not making watches in large enough volumes to justify risking $14,000 plus the cost of a retired government employee's consulting services just so I can enjoy the frustration of trying to design a Tritium watch that isn't ugly, and hope people don't complain about the price I want to ask for it, which is going to be higher than an identical watch with Superluminova.

So...no Tritium.

As for all those other things - bronze, titanium, tungsten, ceramic, blah, blah, blah - also, no. Maybe someday I'll do something with some of those, but today ain't that day. 

Do you know why most watches are made of 316L stainless steel? 

Because it's awesome. 

You just don't realize it, because you've taken it for granted. It's probably the most underrated commercial material on Earth. You like the bezels on the NTH Subs? Yeah, 316L steel.

It's hard, it's strong, it doesn't rust, it's malleable, it's inexpensive, and it doesn't require any special treatment during manufacturing.

Every one of those other materials has a drawback to it. Yes, they all have their benefits as well, but that's the point - there's a trade-off to be made with all those materials, when you look at their pros and cons.

I don't like making trade-offs. I like things that work the way they're supposed to work, don't cost a lot to produce or replace, look good, feel good, and have the broadest appeal. That's steel. It doesn't ask me to give up anything.

Titanium is lighter and stronger than steel, but it's not harder, so it scratches, and the scratches are obvious, because it develops that drab outer layer color, and it's more expensive. Tungsten is also more expensive, plus it's brittle, which means it can shatter, and it's heavy as hell. Ceramic can also be shattered, and isn't exactly cheap. Bronze oxidizes quickly, isn't as hard as steel, and is more expensive. 

I will and do consider any and all materials if there's a reason why I should, but participating in a pointless fad is never going to be a valid reason, in my view. I'd rather make a $500 steel watch than a $900 Carbon/Tungsten/Ceramic/Titanium/Bronze watch. I'm not into "wizz-bang" gimmicks. Smart design is my answer to wizz-bang.

Show me that a material has real advantages, without all the trade-offs, and if it's worth the extra cost, I'll consider it. 

In fact, one of the items on my agenda while I was in Hong Kong was to find sources for a handful of alternative materials I have been looking into - materials I've identified, not already in widespread use within the industry, and with true functional advantages, justifying a price premium - and I wasn't able to find a single supplier for any of them, sadly. 

So for now, plan on my watches being made of steel, and being lit up with Superluminova.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Lots and lots of words...
> 
> Do you know why most watches are made of 316L stainless steel?
> 
> ...


I have to say, I love the steel bezel. Wasn't sure before delivery, but I am now. I've whacked it on all sorts of stuff without a scratch. Or a chip or crack, for that matter.


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

Thanks for the quick summary Doc.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cowboys5sb1997 said:


> Thanks for the quick summary Doc.


Everone's a wisea$$...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

If 316L stainless steel and no tritium tubes is good enough for the Gnomes of Zurich that manufacture Rolexes and Tudors, it's good enough for NTH!


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Everone's a wisea$$...


As my father always said "Being a wisea$$ is always better than being a dumba$$."


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

cowboys5sb1997 said:


> Thanks for the quick summary Doc.


This is comment made me look back to see what he said. I almost thought you were being serious. Nope. Facetious.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Everone's a wisea$$...


Anyone can be a wisea$$, but to be verbose, well, there's a challenge!

As an old teacher once said: "Better to be quiet and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Anyone can be a wisea$$, but to be verbose, well, there's a challenge!
> 
> As an old teacher once said: "Better to be quiet and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."


I give short answers, people argue with me.

People argue with me, I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon.

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

hwa said:


> Anyone can be a wisea$$, but to be verbose, well, there's a challenge!
> 
> As an old teacher once said: "Better to be quiet and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."


That is so true!

Instagram: @ the_watchier


----------



## DrVenkman (Sep 29, 2014)

As far as exotic materials, I found it interesting that Jason at Halios said he will probably never make a Tropik B again due to the difficulty of sourcing the materials. I wonder if the larger companies like Tudor and Oris jumping on the bronze bandwagon have put the squeeze on smaller companies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

#Fun-for-Friday!

Okay, fellas, this is gonna' be fun. Everybody add a line to doc's gem:

I give short answers, people argue with me.

People argue with me, I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon.

I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon, my fingers and eyes start to twitch.



docvail said:


> I give short answers, people argue with me.
> 
> People argue with me, I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon.
> 
> klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> #Fun-for-Friday!
> 
> Okay, fellas, this is gonna' be fun. Everybody add a line to doc's gem:
> 
> ...


I give short answers, people argue with me.

People argue with me, I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon.

I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon, my fingers and eyes start to twitch

I release 12 different versions of a watch and with different colors and people still ask for "blurple".

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> #Fun-for-Friday!
> 
> Okay, fellas, this is gonna' be fun. Everybody add a line to doc's gem:
> 
> ...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> I give short answers, people argue with me.
> 
> People argue with me, I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon.
> 
> ...


Oh, my. let's try this again. I'll give a head start:

I give short answers, people argue with me.

People argue with me, I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon.

I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon, my fingers and eyes start to twitch.

My fingers and eyes start to twitch, ___________________________.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Oh, my. let's try this again. I'll give a head start:
> 
> I give short answers, people argue with me.
> 
> ...


I give short answers, people argue with me.

People argue with me, I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon.

I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon, my fingers and eyes start to twitch.

My fingers and eyes start to twitch, which is bad news because today is taser cleaning day...

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## GoJoshGo (Dec 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> I give short answers, people argue with me.
> 
> People argue with me, I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon.
> 
> ...


People argue with me, I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon.

I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon, my fingers and eyes start to twitch.

My fingers and eyes start to twitch, which is bad news because today is taser cleaning day...

Being my own test dummy and mixing the rapid-fire logic cannon with my extensive taser collection sometimes makes me think


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



GoJoshGo said:


> People argue with me, I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon.
> 
> I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon, my fingers and eyes start to twitch.
> 
> ...


People argue with me, I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon.

I break out the rapid-fire logic-cannon, my fingers and eyes start to twitch.

My fingers and eyes start to twitch, which is bad news because today is taser cleaning day...

Being my own test dummy and mixing the rapid-fire logic cannon with my extensive taser collection sometimes makes me think

Sometimes makes me think if I can make a 3 crowned watch

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

^^ Well that didn't quite go to plan...

Speaking of NTH Subs (*ahem*)


----------



## Uberyk (Nov 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> So for now, plan on my watches being made of steel, and being lit up with Superluminova.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Yes I admit I killed it sorry 😂

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

so uh... 

radium lume?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You: Chris, will you ever do ABC?

Me: Mmmm...probably not.

You: Well, I think you should. ABC would be awesome. Why won't you?

Me: [*Sigh, you called down the thunder, well now you've got it*] Fine, if you insist, here's a comprehensive reply with my well-thought-out and entirely rational reasoning why I have no plans to do ABC.

You, later on, somewhere else: Chris can be cranky sometimes. He hates to answer questions, and his responses are super-long. It's like a wall of text...

Me, later on, reading that, thinking to myself: Yep. That's exactly how that went down. This is why I'm cutting back on my forum participation...

Maybe if you guys don't want the long answers, you'll start accepting the short ones.

It's not the questions I hate, it's having to type all that $h1t out, when it becomes obvious you're not going to let me go unless I do a text-dump on you.

Whatever it is you do for a living, imagine I came into your office, asked you why you were doing whatever it is you happen to be doing at the moment, you gave me a quick answer, so you could get back to it, but instead of letting that be that, I opened up a protracted Q&A session, of indeterminate scope and duration.

How long before you lose patience and tell me to STFU and get out of your office (cockpit, arbitration room, surgery theater, whatever)?

Me: What's this lever do?

You: Don't touch that! That dumps all our fuel, kills the engines, and sends us hurtling towards earth and certain death.

Me: *****! Why would you have a lever like that in the cockpit? Where do you guys keep the parachutes?

You: Okay...time to return to your seat, Chris...

That's like, EVERY SINGLE DAY for me.


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

Chris can be cranky sometimes but most of the time he's pretty cool.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Y
> 
> Me: What's this lever do?
> 
> ...


Aaaaand that's why we lock the cockpit door. That, and the guy who takes his shoes off. And the guy who fouls the lavatory. But mainly the lever-touching guy.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

No wonder you're cranky.

But then again, anybody wielding a tube sock full of Invictas on annoying people meets the definition of cranky.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> so uh...
> 
> radium lume?


Actually, if someone is able to make a nice looking radium tube diver watch, I'll be very keen.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Actually, if someone is able to make a nice looking radium tube diver watch, I'll be very keen.


I don't think radium is used anymore, or supplied by anyone.

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Lume primer for those curious:
Seeing in the Dark: Luminescence in Watches


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

docvail said:


> I don't think radium is used anymore, or supplied by anyone.
> 
> klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


Thanks. I know. Just saying...


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

But....I like reading the text dumps...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

That otter do it.



ConfusedOne said:


> But....I like reading the text dumps...
> 
> View attachment 9648858


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> That otter do it.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

ConfusedOne said:


> But....I like reading the text dumps...
> 
> View attachment 9648858


Ohhhh .... so cute!

Reminded me of this ...


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> You: Chris, will you ever do ABC?
> 
> Me: Mmmm...probably not.
> 
> ...


I LIKE the long answers!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

This message sent in error. Fumble fingers.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Apropos of nothing, will you do ABC?


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

One teensy request (technically an ABC) would be to ask Doc to make his bezels bidirectional instead of just unidirectional.

As I said, it's a minor ABC but I don't want to get coshed by the tube sock full of Invictas.

<ducks and runs to the nearest horizon>


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

Tanjecterly said:


> One teensy request (technically an ABC) would be to ask Doc to make his bezels bidirectional instead of just unidirectional.
> 
> As I said, it's a minor ABC but I don't want to get coshed by the tube sock full of Invictas.
> 
> <ducks and runs to the nearest horizon>


Oh, the tube sock is coming!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

I've been going through photo withdrawal. So, I'm dragging these back up.....


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

^^^ When I posted the above, the images appeared as photos. But when I check back, they display as "Attachment 1234etc..."

Are they showing up as photos or text?


----------



## cxg231 (Apr 16, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> ^^^ When I posted the above, the images appeared as photos. But when I check back, they display as "Attachment 1234etc..."
> 
> Are they showing up as photos or text?


Text for me...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Okay, I think I fixed them...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

cxg231 said:


> Text for me...


Works for me

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

^ photos looks good.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Previously saw just attachments but now can see the gorgeous pictures of the new Tropics. Way to whet all our appetites!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Bidirectional bezel? Whatever for? Counter-productive to the purpose of ensuring you dont run out of air while underwater. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

^^^ Like many people actually take their watches out diving....... It's an ask and Doc can always say No.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> ^^^ Like many people actually take their watches out diving....... It's an ask and Doc can always say No.


No.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

^^^ Ok!


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> ^^^ Like many people actually take their watches out diving....... It's an ask and Doc can always say No.


I do.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Phantom has a bi-directional bezel. It's not a diver.

The Tropics will have a bi-directional bezel, but with a locking crown. 

Any divers I make with external bezels, the bezels will be uni-directional.

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> The Phantom has a bi-directional bezel. It's not a diver.
> 
> The Tropics will have a bi-directional bezel, but with a locking crown.
> 
> ...


You speak Klingon now?

Ric


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> You speak Klingon now?
> 
> Ric


You don't?

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> You don't?
> 
> klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


Due to copyright by paramount, I do not. (People think they can own a language!)


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

docvail said:


> The shipping is lower than our actual shipping & handling costs, in almost all cases, and definitely on average.
> 
> People outside the USA often don't realize how much more expensive the private couriers are when shipping is arranged from within the USA. I know that the costs are about double for DHL, UPS and FedEx.
> 
> ...


International shipping is a LOT more than most people realize, even USPS. I sold a watch a couple of years ago to a guy in Chile for around $200 and the guy balked at the $40 that I was quoted for International First Class or Registered Mail. So he cheaped out and wanted it by ground.

It took 10 weeks to get there. I think it went by donkey down the Pan American Highway or something. And because it was ground, there wasn't any tracking of any sort.

Eventually it got there, but I vowed to myself never to send anything ground international again. Even if the recipient wants it, my answer is "No". We'll both be sorry.

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Some people on Kickstarter shipping items around the world said that they found Endicia.com for USPS is actually cheaper than USPS for insured, trackable, shipping within the US and internationally. Minimal researching shows that Endicia (software for Mac or PC that prints the postage and label on the same sheet) evidently has some deal where they actually get cheaper USPS rates. One comparison I saw as US Priority Package that was cheaper and insured.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fearlessleader said:


> Some people on Kickstarter shipping items around the world said that they found Endicia.com for USPS is actually cheaper than USPS for insured, trackable, shipping within the US and internationally. Minimal researching shows that Endicia (software for Mac or PC that prints the postage and label on the same sheet) evidently has some deal where they actually get cheaper USPS rates. One comparison I saw as US Priority Package that was cheaper and insured.


Since I outsource order fulfillment to a third-party logistics provider, I'll let them worry about it.


----------



## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

Doc, any chances of shorter versions of the upcoming tropic straps? The rubber ones that shipped with the subs are great, but they're too long for my puny 6.5" wrist. You'd be doing us girly-wrist guys a favour since it's impossible to find shorter length tropic straps.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WastedYears said:


> Doc, any chances of shorter versions of the upcoming tropic straps? The rubber ones that shipped with the subs are great, but they're too long for my puny 6.5" wrist. You'd be doing us girly-wrist guys a favour since it's impossible to find shorter length tropic straps.


There will be only one version of the strap, and I haven't received them yet, so I can't say for certain yet what length they are, but there are tang holes almost the entire length of both sides. With at least one free-floating keeper, it shouldn't matter how small your wrists are, they should fit.


----------



## GoJoshGo (Dec 18, 2013)

Family photo (sorry for the crappy quality)









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GoJoshGo said:


> Family photo (sorry for the crappy quality)
> 
> View attachment 9676474
> 
> ...


I'd be more sorry for the Granny Clampett bed spread as background.

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

This is precisely why our math teachers taught us to identify the units... Fixed that for you!



GoJoshGo said:


> Family photo (sorry for the crappy quality OF THE PHOTO)
> 
> View attachment 9676474
> 
> ...


----------



## GoJoshGo (Dec 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'd be more sorry for the Granny Clampett bed spread as background.
> 
> klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


Happy wife, happy life.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GoJoshGo said:


> Happy wife, happy life.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Preach, brother, preach.


----------



## TradeKraft (Apr 11, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

TradeKraft said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looks great, if you don't mind me asking, which strap is that?

Instagram: @ the_watchier


----------



## TradeKraft (Apr 11, 2014)

the_watchier said:


> Looks great, if you don't mind me asking, which strap is that?
> 
> Instagram: @ the_watchier


Thanks! It's a Hadley Roma. It's not as nice as the Crown & Buckle Phalanx but for half the price it's not too bad.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

the_watchier said:


> Looks great, if you don't mind me asking, which strap is that?
> 
> Instagram: @ the_watchier


It's from a company in Greece called "Strapped for Cash".

Honestly, I haven't been keeping up with world events lately.

Is Greece still out of money, or do I need to find a new country to use in that joke?


----------



## theflyingmoose (Nov 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> It's from a company in Greece called "Strapped for Cash".
> 
> Honestly, I haven't been keeping up with world events lately.
> 
> Is Greece still out of money, or do I need to find a new country to use in that joke?


Still applies for Greece, though, if you want to make it more topical, Italian banks reportedly had $400 billion in bad loans in on their balance sheets post-brexit.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

theflyingmoose said:


> Still applies for Greece, though, if you want to make it more topical, Italian banks reportedly had $400 billion in bad loans in on their balance sheets post-brexit.


I tried to come up with a joke involving a Greek, a Brit and an Italian, doing something, but I got nuthin'...


----------



## theflyingmoose (Nov 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> I tried to come up with a joke involving a Greek, a Brit and an Italian, doing something, but I got nuthin'...


It should probably not involve walking into a bar, cause [insert joke about how a certain nationality can't handle their drink here]


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

When you're already busy as hell, someone drops a problem into your lap, and the emails just won't quit...











klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> It's from a company in Greece called "Strapped for Cash".
> 
> Honestly, I haven't been keeping up with world events lately.
> 
> Is Greece still out of money, or do I need to find a new country to use in that joke?


Well... you can use Puerto Rico...


----------



## jmat321 (Sep 30, 2014)

Orthos 2/Commander Owners - anyone finding the bezel insert to be a scratch magnet? Finding that my blue commander's bezel is really getting dinged up. More some than my Sumo, which has seen a lot more wear and tear.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just got the tropic strap samples from the supplier.

Turns out both keepers are free-floating, which I think I like.

The straps I got as samples are just silicon, so they smell like a bike tire, but the production straps will be high quality rubber.



















klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

Friday night lights. Without the lights but with a Näcken.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Just got the tropic strap samples from the supplier.
> 
> Turns out both keepers are free-floating, which I think I like.
> 
> ...


I love the smell of tires. And freshly cut wood. And freshly cut grass. And gasoline.


----------



## TradeKraft (Apr 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Just got the tropic strap samples from the supplier.
> 
> Turns out both keepers are free-floating, which I think I like.
> 
> ...


Are these for a specific watch or will you be selling them separately?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

TradeKraft said:


> Are these for a specific watch or will you be selling them separately?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


they are for the tropics line, but I hope he sells them separately as well...


----------



## TradeKraft (Apr 11, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



GlenRoiland said:


> they are for the tropics line, but I hope he sells them separately as well...


I know i'd buy one!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

The Tropics will include the straps along with the bracelet, but I'll also have these straps for sale.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

GlenRoiland said:


> I love the smell of tires. And freshly cut wood. And freshly cut grass. And gasoline.


Ah yes, manly things. They're becoming less popular and less politically correct and it's a shame. Gasoline, especially racing fuel or nitro is one of my favorite smells.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> The straps I got as samples are just silicon, so they smell like a bike tire, but the production straps will be high quality rubber.


Ah, so they'll smell like high quality bike tires...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I love the smell of napalm in the morning. Very manly, that.



hawkeye86 said:


> Ah yes, manly things. They're becoming less popular and less politically correct and it's a shame. Gasoline, especially racing fuel or nitro is one of my favorite smells.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Eek, honestly, people these days will huff the weirdest of substances :roll: :-d

More seriously - not so keen on rubber/tire scents. But a watchstrap infused with, say, Creed Aventus.. ooh, now that would be marvellous (and practical af).


----------



## TradeKraft (Apr 11, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Eek, honestly, people these days will huff the weirdest of substances :roll: :-d
> 
> More seriously - not so keen on rubber/tire scents. But a watchstrap infused with, say, Creed Aventus.. ooh, now that would be marvellous (and practical af).


Actually some sort of scent retaining strap is a pretty good idea. You could infuse it with your own cologne.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

TradeKraft said:


> Actually some sort of scent retaining strap is a pretty good idea. You could infuse it with your own cologne.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Leather?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Way too quiet. For those who haven't heard, Doc is in DC on Nov 5th. See this:
The Time Bum


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Way too quiet. For those who haven't heard, Doc is in DC on Nov 5th. See this:
> The Time Bum


Too bad. I'll be in Allentown that weekend........


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Saw someone had dug up this thread again and thought I'd contribute...


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

Orthos II on Zulu...


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

Orthos II on Zulu...

View attachment 9866938


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)




----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Orthos on NSC Le Mans with matching paracord by yours truly










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## stewham (Oct 23, 2011)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^^^I don't care what anyone says, those are some damn fine-looking watches.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

From a trade today. Brand new and unworn. Best bezel action ever. No play at all and more solid than even both Sinns I've owned. Great piece but I think I may seek to trade it for a Scorpene.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^^^Nice Jas!

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

SteamJ said:


> From a trade today. Brand new and unworn. Best bezel action ever. No play at all and more solid than even both Sinns I've owned. Great piece but I think I may seek to trade it for a Scorpene.


Good trade!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)




----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Happy belated Fannum Phrydae! This week on a Helgray PVD pilot strap.

From AZ to Ore/Cal, bezel WAS set back one hour since ST came back, but since this was on my home, bezel was returned to 0.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I got the new straps for the Tropics. They're pretty sweet.

On the left (darker) is the silicon sample strap the factory sent me. On the right (shiny) is the actual strap, which is real rubber, not silicon.









A natural light shot (silicon on left, rubber on right):









I don't know if you can see the lint on the silicon strap. I wasn't thinking, and stuck them both in the pocket of my jeans to go outside to take that shot. I know people say silicon is a lint-magnet, but I never saw the stark contrast until I took them out and set them down.

Here's a shot of the back. Again, on the left, silicon, and on the right, rubber.

















I also got some shots of the caseback from the factory:


----------



## TradeKraft (Apr 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> I got the new straps for the Tropics. They're pretty sweet.
> 
> On the left (darker) is the silicon sample strap the factory sent me. On the right (shiny) is the actual strap, which is real rubber, not silicon.
> 
> ...


Are they all 20mm or will you have any in 22mm for sale?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TradeKraft said:


> Are they all 20mm or will you have any in 22mm for sale?


Just 20mm.

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## allonon (Aug 13, 2013)

Anyone have a good bracelet idea for a Phantom? I still want a phantom,


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

That caseback is awesome! I cannot wait to get my Antilles.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Iliyan said:


> That caseback is awesome! I cannot wait to get my Antilles.


Same here. And I must add that despite the fact that I'm more of a bracelet guy, those rubber tropics do look very nice and I might use mine often!

Tapatalk'd over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

allonon said:


> Anyone have a good bracelet idea for a Phantom? I still want a phantom,


I think it'd look good on mesh


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

allonon said:


> Anyone have a good bracelet idea for a Phantom? I still want a phantom,


I like it on the Cerberus bracelet:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Iliyan said:


> That caseback is awesome! I cannot wait to get my Antilles.


Cheers, Iliyan.

I'm trying to avoid participating in the threads discussing the watches I make, so I posted here instead of there, but if anyone wants to share these strap and caseback pics over there, be my guest, and thanks.

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## allonon (Aug 13, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> I like it on the Cerberus bracelet:
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Pretty much what I'm looking for. Although I like mesh, the phantom seem to work for me with straight end links.

Now if I can find a Cerberus bracelet


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Good night! Naken Vintage 😍









Instagram: @ the_watchier


----------



## synaptyx (Nov 25, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Santa Cruz travelling in style!!! Business First from Brussels to Dulles. First leg of the trip home complete... layover photo update...


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> I like it on the Cerberus bracelet:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a couple Cerberi, thanks for the idea for my Phantom!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I was thinking the Tropics' BOR bracelet might fit the Phantom's lugs well, as they're similarly shaped, but then I remembered the different lug widths. 

No bueno.

Sometimes it feels like there's just no winning with these sorts of product decisions. 

Make something with a strap, people go looking for a bracelet to fit it. Plus there's that "for the price, it should come on a bracelet" angle. If the strap is cheap, people complain about the quality. If it's nice, people complain about the price.

Make it with a bracelet, it drives the price up, and people complain, or compare the watch to something with similar specs, but only comes on a strap, but the price is $50-$75 less - yeah, because a half-way decent bracelet will run about $70, at least, so the price difference between a strap and bracelet ends up being $50-$75, minimum. 

Someone on Facebook suggested we should sell just the head, no strap or bracelet, because "everyone's going to customize it with their own strap anyway, and it keeps the price down." 

Yeah, I can only imagine the emails. "Why don't you sell the watch with any strap? How the hell am I supposed to wear it?" and "I just received the watch, but there's no strap. What the hell?"

I tried to explain to the guy that I wasn't looking for ways to reduce my profit on each sale by removing something of value and lowering the price, especially not if doing that would also lower the number of watches I'm able to sell, but curiously, he didn't get the logic, and soon after "blocked" me. 

Go figure.

I need one of those Progressive Insurance "name your own price" tools built into my website. You want it for $25 less? No handset. You want $50 off? No strap or bracelet. You want $100 off? Here's a box of parts, build it yourself.


----------



## allonon (Aug 13, 2013)

Yeah, why didn't you build it the way I wanted it in the first place!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I finally sent the Tropics v.2 prototypes off to the photographer, but I wanted to snap a few pics of the new caseback, and show the watches with the actual production rubber strap.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I finally sent the Tropics v.2 prototypes off to the photographer, but I wanted to snap a few pics of the new caseback, and show the watches with the actual production rubber strap.
> 
> View attachment 9990322
> 
> ...


Holy moley that's awesome looking!!

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> Holy moley that's awesome looking!!
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


My factory does nice work, when they're not making me crazy.


----------



## thekody (May 21, 2010)

Nice work Chris, those look great. I especially like that case back!


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> Holy moley that's awesome looking!!
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


God this is getting hard to resist. That champaign dial is looking awesome. It didn't do it for me before, but they're really growing on me... 
What's the time schedule on these? Might be my first purchase from doc. Need to free some money though.

Sent by 2 thumbs.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My factory does nice work, when they're not making me crazy.


All this time I've been thinking that driving you crazy was part of the job!


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

How's the date window survey doing? A clear winner yet?
Or, forget I asked...


----------



## kakefe (Feb 16, 2014)

Champagne will be my first NTH , very excited. and I m also searcing for used oberon nacken or scorpene if i can catch one


instagram @watchcolony


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> God this is getting hard to resist. That champaign dial is looking awesome. It didn't do it for me before, but they're really growing on me...
> What's the time schedule on these? Might be my first purchase from doc. Need to free some money though.
> 
> Sent by 2 thumbs.


Prices likely to go up soon, probably early next month.

Delivery in Spring.

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fearlessleader said:


> How's the date window survey doing? A clear winner yet?
> Or, forget I asked...


We'll announce the results when the survey closes.

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Looking good. Looking good, Doc. You have a keeper in your factory.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Prices likely to go up soon, probably early next month.
> 
> Delivery in Spring.
> 
> klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


Thanks. That is a shame.. I assume it will be beyond march then, which is a bit too late for me. From the start of march my whereabouts are quite uncertain, so right now I have no clue if and where I could receive a watch from that moment in time on. If it were due in February I could've committed 500$, but can't gamble that kind of money on it now.

It's a gorgeous watch though... Oh well..

Sent by 2 thumbs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> Thanks. That is a shame.. I assume it will be beyond march then, which is a bit too late for me. From the start of march my whereabouts are quite uncertain, so right now I have no clue if and where I could receive a watch from that moment in time on. If it were due in February I could've committed 500$, but can't gamble that kind of money on it now.
> 
> It's a gorgeous watch though... Oh well..
> 
> Sent by 2 thumbs.


Thanks and sorry to hear that. And yes, we are targeting late April for delivery.

I assume you literally mean you aren't sure if you'll be able to receive it, and I see how that would be a problem.

However, if we're just talking about a change in address, or needing to put a temporary hold on it, that's not a problem at all. I do that for pre-order customers quite frequently.

It's not at all uncommon for someone to pre-order, then later ask me to change the delivery address, or hold onto the shipment until they're able to receive it.

Just food for thought, in case you change your mind.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Thanks and sorry to hear that. And yes, we are targeting late April for delivery.
> 
> I assume you literally mean you aren't sure if you'll be able to receive it, and I see how that would be a problem.
> 
> ...


I'm probably traveling by motorcycle and tent for an undetermined amount of time starting somewhere March April, so yeah pretty much unable to receive anything  maybe I'll have some luck on the second hand market afterwards. Probably a 500dollar better spent on travelling anyway.. 

Sent by 2 thumbs.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Behold the Orthos!


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> I finally sent the Tropics v.2 prototypes off to the photographer, but I wanted to snap a few pics of the new caseback, and show the watches with the actual production rubber strap.
> 
> View attachment 9990322
> 
> ...


That caseback is really awesome. I can't wait to see more pics of the v.2 protos.


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)

My first day with the Scorpène. Worth the wait !


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Great pic Jerome!

klatapat yb snoitseggus cinomed neddiH


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Hey all, I've got no skin in this game, but apparently Rusty inhaled too much swamp gas, because he's posted three of the four Legends prototypes for sale. There are only four in existence, each one in a unique color scheme, and there will never be any more. If you've got a hankering for a unicorn, there are three grazing in F29 right now!

Here's a link:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/lew-huey-legends-prototype-janis-trading-black-orange-3792802.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/lew-huey-legends-prototype-janis-trading-blue-gray-3792794.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/lew-...janis-trading-blue-orange-lemans-3792778.html


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> "name your own price" tools built into my website. You want it for $25 less? No handset. You want $50 off? No strap or bracelet.


'S not a bad idea. Well, the strap part at least.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

kpjimmy said:


> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


De ja vu......massdrop


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

How long before there is a L&H/NTH/Docvail app that tells the time with a brand logo on my phone and offers long-winded, slightly jaded, always humorous thoughts for the day?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> How long before there is a L&H/NTH/Docvail app that tells the time with a brand logo on my phone and offers long-winded, slightly jaded, always humorous thoughts for the day?


Oh c'mon!!!

I'm more than just "slightly" jaded.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Oh c'mon!!!
> 
> I'm more than just "slightly" jaded.


Well done sir.....it is rare that I find myself actually laughing out loud at a forum post!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> Well done sir.....it is rare that I find myself actually laughing out loud at a forum post!


I'll be here all week!

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with Tapatalk. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

New dog.
Same watch.


----------



## m0rt (Jun 9, 2012)

Good morning (in Sweden),

I seem to recall a conversation about the bracelet for Cerberus / Orthos about it being complicated to fit right? My bracelet pops loose from time to time as if the spring bar never really attaches to the lug holes or something. Any remedies for this?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

m0rt said:


> Good morning (in Sweden),
> 
> I seem to recall a conversation about the bracelet for Cerberus / Orthos about it being complicated to fit right? My bracelet pops loose from time to time as if the spring bar never really attaches to the lug holes or something. Any remedies for this?


Have you already tried different spring bars?

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## m0rt (Jun 9, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Have you already tried different spring bars?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Not super-different perhaps but yes, another pair at least.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

m0rt said:


> Good morning (in Sweden),
> 
> I seem to recall a conversation about the bracelet for Cerberus / Orthos about it being complicated to fit right? My bracelet pops loose from time to time as if the spring bar never really attaches to the lug holes or something. Any remedies for this?


Hi Martin,

I've seen what you describe a few times. Because the end-link is supposed to have a tight fit against the case, it can be difficult to get the springbar ends to seat correctly when trying to re-install the bracelet. Sometimes the bars aren't perfectly straight, or they are, but the holes aren't perfectly aligned. They can be off by the width of the holes.

Some people will put a slight bend in the spring bar, and that can work, but it's a trial-and-error process which requires a bit of patience.

I just had it happen with one of my bracelets. To get the bar to seat correctly, I used the springbar tool like a crowbar, by inserting it into the slot in the end-link, but next to the bar end, and levering it towards the case.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> I was thinking the Tropics' BOR bracelet might fit the Phantom's lugs well, as they're similarly shaped, but then I remembered the different lug widths.
> 
> No bueno.
> 
> ...


Guilty of wishing I could buy the bezel and insert.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Mediocre said:


> How long before there is a L&H/NTH/Docvail app that tells the time with a brand logo on my phone and offers long-winded, slightly jaded, always humorous thoughts for the day?


How about a GPS with Chris' voice? That's where the real money is!


Let's see if this time you can take the right exit!
Turn left in two miles, don't disappoint me.
How amazing you are, just like that Invicta you're wearing. Turn around and go back.
There won't be foolish line merging or stupid u-turns this time


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Pato_Lucas said:


> How about a GPS with Chris' voice? That's where the real money is!
> 
> 
> Let's see if this time you can take the right exit!
> ...


To quote Larry the Cable Guy: I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> How about a GPS with Chris' voice? That's where the real money is!
> 
> 
> Let's see if this time you can take the right exit!
> ...


Legit LOL.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm sitting in the waiting area of an auto-electronics place. My wife wanted a remote car-starter for Christmas, so...yeah, hanging out, waiting for it to be done.

One of the guys who works here looks like a creepier, more 70's-p0rn, permed-hair version of William H. Macy.










His name is "Randy".

I mean...c'mon...Randy?

Every time he answers the phone and says his name, I can't help but hear Sterling Archer in my head...































I'm going to be here for three hours, I'm told.

Sigh...


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

rpm1974 said:


> To quote Larry the Cable Guy: I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.





docvail said:


> Legit LOL.


Thanks, thanks, I have my moments 



docvail said:


> I'm sitting in the waiting area of an auto-electronics place. My wife wanted a remote car-starter for Christmas, so...yeah, hanging out, waiting for it to be done.
> 
> One of the guys who works here looks like a creepier, more 70's-p0rn, permed-hair version of William H. Macy.


If I miss something of the United States is the human specimens over there, sure, Europe has their own weirdos but they're very far in between and not so "interesting", lol


----------



## gcmarx (Dec 1, 2013)

Hey all,
I've got my Näcken Modern back from Doc's fix-um-haus (thanks Doc!) and onto the NTH official rubber...but now I can't get the spring bars back out of the rubber. Any ideas?

Thanks!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gcmarx said:


> Hey all,
> I've got my Näcken Modern back from Doc's fix-um-haus (thanks Doc!) and onto the NTH official rubber...but now I can't get the spring bars back out of the rubber. Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks!


I'm sure this won't lead to shenanigans...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

gcmarx said:


> Hey all,
> I've got my Näcken Modern back from Doc's fix-um-haus (thanks Doc!) and onto the NTH official rubber...but now I can't get the spring bars back out of the rubber. Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks!












Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm not touching his spring bar problem...


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Sorry Doc.
Watch stuck in tree.
Instructions unclear.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ConfusedOne said:


> Sorry Doc.
> Watch stuck in tree.
> Instructions unclear.
> 
> View attachment 10070658


Very odd post, there.
It sort of reads like Haiku.
But clearly, it's not.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Game on, brother doc
We're overdue for haiku
Quiets the voices


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Game on, brother doc
> We're overdue for haiku
> Quiets the voices
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I count syllables.
Let's see here...five, seven, five.
You're doing it right.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

That is beautiful 
Syllables adding in time
Rhyme however. Not. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Praise for my Näcken Modern.

I'm a consummate watch swapper, sometimes multiple times a day....I'm sure this isn't an unusual disease amongst the WIS here.

I had a leather strap on my Näcken and I really liked it....but I decided as the weather has cooled down here in NJ to swap back to the bracelet. I've probably had this watch on 75% of the time over the past two weeks on and today, I actually forgot that it was on, high praise indeed for me.

The watch is super classy and one of my favorites. Thanks Doc.

Skip Williams










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## phuchmileif (Dec 2, 2015)

Is anyone else highly disappointed in the bracelet clasp on their NTH? The clasp can move up and down like 3mm on the stud, and the lock doesn't stay closed.

It seems like every microbrand uses the same shoddy clasp...it might be excusable, if it weren't for the fact the clasp on my Seiko jubilee (you know, the bracelet that costs like $25) has been absolutely flawless...both stages lock as tightly as the day I got it, despite being a pure friction fit (no buttons).

Would gladly trade a bad milled clasp for a good stamped one.

The watch is fine, otherwise. Doc really nailed the case and bracelet dimensions. Also it has the best crown operation of anything I own.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

This has been beaten to death. Truly. I have a Rolex sub with a clasp that is bent and tinny. Worst clasp I own. I have Omegas that put it to shame at a third of the cost, and my NTHs are better than the Rolex but worse than the Omegas. I have a Damasko bracelet you cant even open without an instruction manual, which isnt provided. And i have Seikos with what looks to be the same clasp as the NTHs. And Strapcodes, too. What's the point? Would you want the NTH if it cost a couple hundred more to allow for a custom clasp? Doc has been over this endlessly, so why keep hammering on it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

phuchmileif said:


> Is anyone else highly disappointed in the bracelet clasp on their NTH? The clasp can move up and down like 3mm on the stud, and the lock doesn't stay closed.
> 
> It seems like every microbrand uses the same shoddy clasp...it might be excusable, if it weren't for the fact the clasp on my Seiko jubilee (you know, the bracelet that costs like $25) has been absolutely flawless...both stages lock as tightly as the day I got it, despite being a pure friction fit (no buttons).
> 
> ...


The safety catch is kept shut with friction. Giving it a squeeze with some pliers will increase the friction, and create a more snug fit.

Once the safety catch is in place, the clasp shouldn't move up and down on the stud, but there has to be some clearance there for the clasp to work correctly, so it may have some play before the catch is in place.

The bracelet and catch have gotten both praise and criticism. There is some degree of "your mileage may vary", based on how tight you wear it, and some variance in the initial friction of the catch, but it's not something you have to live with if it's not tight enough, if you've got a set of pliers in the house.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'm sure this won't lead to shenanigans...


God, I love this movie


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



phuchmileif said:


> Is anyone else highly disappointed in the bracelet clasp on their NTH? The clasp can move up and down like 3mm on the stud, and the lock doesn't stay closed.
> 
> It seems like every microbrand uses the same shoddy clasp...it might be excusable, if it weren't for the fact the clasp on my Seiko jubilee (you know, the bracelet that costs like $25) has been absolutely flawless...both stages lock as tightly as the day I got it, despite being a pure friction fit (no buttons).
> 
> ...


Hager uses a very different clasp. It's still fold over, but is push button release with a sliding diver extension. Look there if you're thinking about frankensteining your bracelet.


----------



## Justaminute (Jun 6, 2012)

I think Janis watches are priced well as equipped.
Just add on whatever suits your sensibilities...








Pay an extra amount up front to a maker or pay aftermarket. Quality clasps are readily available.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

I bought three Nths. One of the bracelets remains in the factory plastic since I swap straps frequently. The clasps on the two I do wear seem fine. In fact, if they were any tighter, I'd have trouble in latching them. I had a couple Seikos that required using the pliers method to snug them up a bit.

Note: put a piece of cloth over the latch before you take the pliers to them. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## m0rt (Jun 9, 2012)

m0rt said:


> Not super-different perhaps but yes, another pair at least.


One hour plus a couple of broken springbars later ... and the bracelet on the Commander sits ... quite well ... I don't trust it, though.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

m0rt said:


> One hour plus a couple of broken springbars later ... and the bracelet on the Commander sits ... quite well ... I don't trust it, though.


If there's no "wobble" in the end link, you should be good.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Just recently found this great video concept for a watch ad.
Doc, if you ever decide to do a video reveal for your next watch I hope it is something like this!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ConfusedOne said:


> Just recently found this great video concept for a watch ad.
> Doc, if you ever decide to do a video reveal for your next watch I hope it is something like this!


That's pretty good, bro.

I like this one, too.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> That's pretty good, bro.
> 
> I like this one, too.


Just say no.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I like Alec's look when he realizes he's been Rickrolled. That would send me into a blind rage killing everyone in sight even the younglings.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Toasting the end of the work week and the purchase of my first Grail. Here's a hint: I'll be ready for Tuesdays on Instagram.

But since this is a Janis thread, here's a unicorn photo.










Blue and Orange "LeMans" is still available. If you send me a reasonable offer in a little while, I may have consumed enough scotch to redefine reasonable. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

rpm1974 said:


> Toasting the end of the work week and the purchase of my first Grail. Here's a hint: I'll be ready for Tuesdays on Instagram.
> 
> But since this is a Janis thread, here's a unicorn photo.
> 
> ...


Congratulations! Is it a BB?

instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

the_watchier said:


> Congratulations! Is it a BB?
> 
> instagram @ the_watchier


Good guess... But nope.

Here's a hint: it has a case shape and profile that closely resembles one of the first Lew and Huey models.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

rpm1974 said:


> Good guess... But nope.
> 
> Here's a hint: it has a case shape and profile that closely resembles one of the first Lew and Huey models.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting! Now I have no clue ?

instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

the_watchier said:


> Interesting! Now I have no clue 
> 
> instagram @ the_watchier


Got any money? I'll sell you one.

For $20, we can skip the clues, and I'll just tell you what he bought.


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Got any money? I'll sell you one.
> 
> For $20, we can skip the clues, and I'll just tell you what he bought.


$20; Sounds great! Can I get 3, please 😉

instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

the_watchier said:


> $20; Sounds great! Can I get 3, please 
> 
> instagram @ the_watchier


Paypal me $60 as a gift for a friend, and I will tell you the next three watches Rusty buys, starting with this one.


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Paypal me $60 as a gift for a friend, and I will tell you the next three watches Rusty buys, starting with this one.




instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## TradeKraft (Apr 11, 2014)

rpm1974 said:


> Toasting the end of the work week and the purchase of my first Grail. Here's a hint: I'll be ready for Tuesdays on Instagram.
> 
> But since this is a Janis thread, here's a unicorn photo.
> 
> ...


Congrats on the Speedy!

Now on to the Scotch... How is the Caribbean cask?


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



TradeKraft said:


> Congrats on the Speedy!
> 
> Now on to the Scotch... How is the Caribbean cask?


I'm a new Scotch drinker, but I do find this one lovely. Not too smoky, just a hint of fruit. I'm really enjoying it neat.

Edit: and thanks! (I have the Mark II incoming)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TradeKraft said:


> Congrats on the Speedy!
> 
> Now on to the Scotch... How is the Caribbean cask?


There goes my $20.

Nice job, Cameron. Remind me to tell everyone the next time you get that rash all over your groin...


----------



## TradeKraft (Apr 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> There goes my $20.
> 
> Nice job, Cameron. Remind me to tell everyone the next time you get that rash all over your groin...


Hey I thought you were a Doc. what happened to the Hippocratic oath?



rpm1974 said:


> I'm a new Scotch drinker, but I do find this one lovely. Not too smoky, just a hint of fruit. I'm really enjoying it neat.
> 
> Edit: and thanks! (I have the Mark II incoming)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Great choice, the MKII is my favorite variant.


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



rpm1974 said:


> I'm a new Scotch drinker, but I do find this one lovely. Not too smoky, just a hint of fruit. I'm really enjoying it neat.
> 
> Edit: and thanks! (I have the Mark II incoming)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Congrats on the Mark II it is an amazing watch indeed. I guess I'm coming from the wrong side of the interwebz where they have Tudor Tuesday! Totally forgot about speedy Tuesday ?

instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TradeKraft said:


> Hey I thought you were a Doc. what happened to the Hippocratic oath?


I took the hypocritic oath, instead.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> I took the hypocritic oath, instead.


I thought that was required to post on WUS?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mediocre said:


> I thought that was required to post on WUS?


Maybe, but if you listen to my critics, I'm really taking the oath seriously.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

Wearing my Cerberus on this Monday morning....









Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cowboys5sb1997 said:


> Wearing my Cerberus on this Monday morning....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice. I broke out my white Cerb for dinner with an Aunt last week, and have been wearing it almost daily since.


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

I put it on this morning and wondered why I don't wear it more often. Then I looked at the three NTH's and the Orthos Commander and had my answer.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Loving my Santa Cruz!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Oh forgot to post here lol









Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Loving my Santa Cruz!!!


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I think tomorrow is an Orthos kinda day


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Maybe but today is an Oberon kinda day!









Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Hot Damn!

Sweaters & Watches time again, boys!

Let's see what you got!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Hot Damn!
> 
> Sweaters & Watches time again, boys!
> 
> Let's see what you got!


Bill is in Florida. What happened, dropped below 80-degrees?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Bill is in Florida. What happened, dropped below 80-degrees?


Don't know about all that, but judging by his bezel, he's timing something that takes precisely 59 minutes...

Or is that one minute?

Honestly, I'm not really good with how to use bezels. I just like to turn 'em and hear the clickies...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Don't know about all that, but judging by his bezel, he's timing something that takes precisely 59 minutes...
> 
> Or is that one minute?
> 
> Honestly, I'm not really good with how to use bezels. I just like to turn 'em and hear the clickies...


Poor Bill. No telling how many shots it took him to get an in-focus photo. Now he has to start all over again.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Does anyone know what happened to my signature block? I just noticed it ain't there no more, and, uhm...it doesn't appear that everyone else's has been deleted, so...


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Does anyone know what happened to my signature block? I just noticed it ain't there no more, and, uhm...it doesn't appear that everyone else's has been deleted, so...


We secretly replaced doc's tapatalk signature with taytay 's blank space... let's see if he....

Dang.


----------



## tanksndudes (Sep 9, 2016)

docvail said:


> Does anyone know what happened to my signature block? I just noticed it ain't there no more, and, uhm...it doesn't appear that everyone else's has been deleted, so...


I have no idea but... funny you would ask that because an hour ago I was toying around with an Azores in the cart on your site and remembered you had a discount code in your sig. Searched WUS for your posts (which are not hard to find) and your sig was gone. Thankfully, I'm half smart and guessed the code on my first try. Now I just need to pull that trigger...


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Don't know about all that, but judging by his bezel, he's timing something that takes precisely 59 minutes...
> 
> Or is that one minute?
> 
> Honestly, I'm not really good with how to use bezels. I just like to turn 'em and hear the clickies...


I knew I'd take crap for that and rightfully so. I cringed when I logged on and saw what I posted.

Andrew it only got up to 61 degrees here today. Definitely sweater weather. I'm going to be freezing tomorrow morning when I tee off at 9am.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

Tropic pre-order locked in!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tanksndudes said:


> I have no idea but... funny you would ask that because an hour ago I was toying around with an Azores in the cart on your site and remembered you had a discount code in your sig. Searched WUS for your posts (which are not hard to find) and your sig was gone. Thankfully, I'm half smart and guessed the code on my first try. Now I just need to pull that trigger...


No pressure, but I wouldn't wait too long. I've been meaning to raise prices, and just haven't gotten around to doing it. Tomorrow marks two months since we started pre-orders.



Ruggs said:


> Tropic pre-order locked in!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice!

Thanks for your biz, Andrew!

(When someone posts that they bought something from the site, especially if they've got their location in their profile, I like to go look at the order history and figure out who they are, then, sometime later, I'll sneak into their house, and short-sheet their bed...)


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> No pressure, but I wouldn't wait too long. I've been meaning to raise prices, and just haven't gotten around to doing it. Tomorrow marks two months since we started pre-orders.
> 
> Nice!
> 
> ...


All about that full service I see, Doc

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ruggs said:


> All about that full service I see, Doc
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gotta be. My competitors always be watching what I'm doing...

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Hey Doc,

Your sig is back!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> Hey Doc,
> 
> Your sig is back!


That's a new sig.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



cowboys5sb1997 said:


> I knew I'd take crap for that and rightfully so. I cringed when I logged on and saw what I posted.
> 
> Andrew it only got up to 61 degrees here today. Definitely sweater weather. I'm going to be freezing tomorrow morning when I tee off at 9am.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


Wow... 
When I tee up this afternoon with a sweater and temperatures in the mid thirties I'll have a thought about you and how hard it must be living in such a hot place  

Tapatalk'd over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pakz said:


> Wow...
> When I tee up this afternoon with a sweater and temperatures in the mid thirties I'll have a thought about you and how hard it must be living in such a hot place
> 
> Tapatalk'd over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


Temps in the mid 30's causes me to shut it all down and not leave the house. No way I'm playing golf in that kind of weather.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



cowboys5sb1997 said:


> Temps in the mid 30's causes me to shut it all down and not leave the house. No way I'm playing golf in that kind of weather.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


Well with a clear sky and nice crisp air, I really love playing in this sort of weather. Balls are hard and go much less distance and the ground is often frozen, punishing your poor contacts but what a blast being out and about in the late autumn... And many people feel like you so courses are "almost empty" (actually far from it, but less people than in summer).

But I'm clearly more of a cold weather guy and it's when temps are above 90 that I'm closing in and not playing too much...   

Tapatalk'd over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Family Photos!!!


----------



## kirkryanm (Jan 5, 2016)

I'll keep it brief - But I wanted to give a shoutout and thank you to Chris for his off the chart customer service. I had an (admittedly) amateur question about one of his watches I acquired second hand. He was incredibly timely with his response, and gracious enough to provide additional pointers. 

No doubt, I will be doing business with him directly on his next project.

Thank you, sir.

RMK


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I was wearing my nice guy underwear today. 

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## kirkryanm (Jan 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> I was wearing my nice guy underwear today.
> 
> We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


HA! Hey, whatever works! Not to mention, this was on a Monday!

Regardless, it is much appreciated and you've got yourself a new customer.

Have a good one! 
RMK

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

docvail said:


> I was wearing my nice guy underwear today.
> 
> We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


Good guys wear brown??


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> Good guys wear brown??


Never claimed to be a good guy.

But my underwear today are clean, soft, and don't pinch.

Coincidence?

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> Never claimed to be a good guy.
> 
> But my underwear today are clean, soft, and don't pinch.
> 
> ...


Who has pinchy undies!?!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ruggs said:


> Who has pinchy undies!?!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lots of dudes, apparently, to judge by those Duluth Trading Company commercials.






We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## stress8all (Sep 21, 2016)

I was going to ask the same thing. Are chastity belts still a thing where you are? 

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

Phantom enjoying a Cuba libre... or 2 or 10 of them...


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> Lots of dudes, apparently, to judge by those Duluth Trading Company commercials.


I love their clothing, don't knock 'em. But don't see their commercials out here in California.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

I've been tempted to try some of their shorts but they're pricey. You can get a Walmart bulk pack for the price of one pair. Savings=more money in watch fund. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

The Original today!!









Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just posted this over in the BSHT thread.

My team has been cooking up some new versions of the Subs. Five of them, actually.

Four of them, I can reveal, because I know how they'll look. I want to see how the prototypes turn out before I reveal the last one.

Here's a sneak peek at the Subs 2.0. Keep in mind that these are DRAWINGS, and the colors may end up appearing slightly different when we get the prototypes...
*
Amphion Vintage Blue*









The Amphion Vintage Blue will essentially be the same as the original Amphion Vintage, but with a blue bezel and blue sandpaper dial, as seen in the Näcken Vintage Blue (same shades of blue). Like the original Amphion Vintage, it will have the same old radium lume on the hands and dial. We're still determining which color lume to use for the bezel insert markers.

*Näcken Modern Blue*









The Näcken Modern Blue will basically be the same as the original Näcken Modern (matte dial, applied markers), but with the same shade of blue bezel and blue dial color seen on the Näcken Vintage Blue. It'll have BG W9 lume all around.

*Amphion Dark Gilt*









Basically, it's the Amphion Modern, but with gilt hands and dial, plus C3 lume on the markers. Bezel markers will still be BG W9, as in the original Amphion Modern.

*Barracuda*









It's a "Root Beer" mash-up of the Näcken and the Amphion, with a sunburst dial, gilt hands and markers, and C3 lume all around.

The last will be called the Santa Fe, which will be a full-lume dial version with markers and hands like the Santa Cruz, but with a printed, matte (not textured in any way) dial, rather than applied markers (picture the Tag Heuer Night Diver, but in the Subs' case). We're still trying to nail down which color lume we're using for the dial.

These will all be EXACTLY the same as the original Subs, in terms of specs and components.

All the common components for these (cases, crowns, crystals, bracelets, bezel insert blanks, clasps, and movements) are already made, and just waiting on me to decide how many of each version we'll make before we finalize the dials, handesets and bezel markings. As such (and as always), I'm not accepting requests for radical changes (anything requiring new tooling or different components) at this time.

It's also too late for me to request alternative designs. The five I've decided on are the five we're producing, no more, no less. The prototypes for these are already being made, and I hope to have them sometime in January. If not, then before the end of February.

Pre-orders will start as soon as we make delivery on the Tropics. Target delivery date to be determined, but could be as early as next summer. It will depend on when we deliver the Tropics, and how pre-orders for these go.


----------



## el_duderino04 (Feb 13, 2011)

Oooooh, barracuda! 



Sorry, couldn't resist. You've got some stunners there, Doc. Well done. Nothing will beat my Santa Cruz, though. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## KJRye (Jul 28, 2014)

Damn, that Nacken Modern Blue...the best of ALL worlds!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

el_duderino04 said:


> Oooooh, barracuda!
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist. You've got some stunners there, Doc. Well done. Nothing will beat my Santa Cruz, though.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk





KJRye said:


> Damn, that Nacken Modern Blue...the best of ALL worlds!


Glad you guys like 'em.

We looked at a ton of different ideas, but when you produce in small volumes, you have to make some tough choices, and these were the five we thought most deserved life.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Killin my wallet again Doc.

Will these be pre-order priced? IE if we get in early we try an avoid divorce court?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ruggs said:


> Who has pinchy undies!?!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> Killin my wallet again Doc.
> 
> Will these be pre-order priced? IE if we get in early we try an avoid divorce court?


Dammit man, I'm a micro-owner, not a marriage counselor.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## Siskiyoublues (Mar 17, 2016)

Damn! my Amphion Modern has me cured from watch buying since it showed up at my door. When that dark gilt is available for preorder that will all change. Thanks Doc! grr


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Same exact case sizing as the first run?


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

Barracuda and Nacken Modern Blue will be added to to collection. Guaranteed!

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Same exact case sizing as the first run?


Everything is exactly the same, in terms of specs.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Everything is exactly the same, in terms of specs.
> 
> We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


In other words, they are exactly the same but different!

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

Color me intrigued! But speaking of color, the Amphion and Näcken blues don't look very "blue" to me. Wonder if it's my eyes or my phone?

Anyway doesn't really matter since I know I like the color of the vintage blue!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rscaletta said:


> Color me intrigued! But speaking of color, the Amphion and Näcken blues don't look very "blue" to me. Wonder if it's my eyes or my phone?
> 
> Anyway doesn't really matter since I know I like the color of the vintage blue!


Yep. The colors in the rendering software are never quite the same as what we see in the metal, and how they look on screen is not always entirely accurate, either way.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Dammit, that Barracuda looks so very good..and the Amphion Vintage isn't far behind in hitting a sweet spot for me

You've just gone & doubled down there Doc - even as just drawings those really catch the eye.

Pre-orders starting after delivery of the Tropics is just one more notch on ramping up my anticipation on my Azores pre-order - and I'm already ticking off the days on the calendar with a surfeit of enthusiasm this in no way helps with


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> *Amphion Dark Gilt*
> 
> View attachment 10187754
> 
> ...


Hubba hubba.........

.........I think you've just given me another reason not to pursue going upmarket Doc! |>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Hubba hubba.........
> 
> .........I think you've just given me another reason not to pursue going upmarket Doc! |>


Like I told you, no Black Bay homage, but some BB-ish stuff.


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

I went back and forth on the Manchester Watch Works limited edition (funds were an issue) but I might have to find a way to fund one of these when pre-orders open up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Like I told you, no Black Bay homage, but some BB-ish stuff.


Yep you did!

.........still don't like you though as I'm gonna have to sell something off to make room!


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Glad you guys like 'em.
> 
> We looked at a ton of different ideas, but when you produce in small volumes, you have to make some tough choices, and these were the five we thought most deserved life.
> 
> We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


Modern näcken gray bgw9 make the cut?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Yep you did!
> 
> .........still don't like you though as I'm gonna have to sell something off to make room!


How could you not like me?

I'm like, totally likable!

My inherent likability aside, I was happy to see you take the time to visit a luxury brand AD, and form the opinions you did.

If I recall, you weren't too enthusiastic about some aspects of the NTH Subs. My hope is the experience, and the impressions formed, cast what we're delivering in a new light.


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

Wow those are good looking. That root beer color is really calling me...

sticking with the 9015 movement? Or going to the stp?

I kind of thought you went STP because the 9015 movements were not exactly available?


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

My wallet is going to take a stupendous hit just on those designs. I already like the Amphion gilt and am giving the fish eye to some of the others. 

I think I'm going to have to take up busking on the streets. Next time you see a busker or even, god forbid, a street mime, please be sure to donate to Doc's fund.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> Modern näcken gray bgw9 make the cut?


Only the five I discussed.

Just those five.

Seriously, I think some of you guys are screwing with me with some of these questions I've been getting.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Only the five I discussed.
> 
> Just those five.


A boy can dream.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

The Barracuda is genius. *Very* clever indeed. It's begging for an ammo / vintaged leather strap.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> How could you not like me?
> 
> I'm like, totally likable!
> 
> ...


Of course I like you! Who couldn't? ;-)

Interesting you should make that last comment Doc, as per usual I decided on tomorrow's watch tonight and surprise, surprise I picked the NTH Näcken modern. OK, I wasn't enthralled by the bracelet quality, but after today and looking at the NTH with a new perspective I'm very happy with it (......and the other two b-)b-)), quality was certainly up there with the Oris.......


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Quazi said:


> Wow those are good looking. That root beer color is really calling me...
> 
> sticking with the 9015 movement? Or going to the stp?
> 
> I kind of thought you went STP because the 9015 movements were not exactly available?


The 9015 is the only movement that will fit in that case AND keep the prices affordable.

The 9015 isn't "unavailable", per se. Its popularity was driving up prices and lead times. But we ordered our movements back in November of last year, so we're good. My factory has been sitting on all the common components, including the movements, for months, waiting on me to tell them what to do with them.

I went with the STP in the Tropics for other reasons, but in a nutshell, the total production cost of the Tropics pushed the retail pricing into that dreaded "for that price, I can buy a watch with a Swiss movement" territory.

So, my thinking was essentially, "if that's people's main objection, eff it, we'll put a Swiss movement in it, and charge more, if that's what people want. Who am I to argue with the market?"

Otherwise, I would have been happy to use the 9015, more or less.


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

Doc,

Thanks for the explanation, I thought your move to STP was very interesting, they look like really good movements. I still want a 9015 movement also ..

your Barracuda is really calling me.

I think you might like to hear this... I keep seeing advertisements for Nth subs .. It seems like your advertising is stalking me. I go to a new web page.. BAM.. I see a picture of your NTH subs... Makes me visit your web page.. Figure out how much the watches would cost after applying my points.. Almost can't resist anymore. 

I left several hints to my wife about new watches for Christmas.. But not sure she wants me to have any more watches... Maybe another hint for next year on this new NTH subs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Quazi said:


> Doc,
> 
> Thanks for the explanation, I thought your move to STP was very interesting, they look like really good movements. I still want a 9015 movement also ..
> 
> ...


The STP looks like a very good movement. I know both Magrette and Borealis are using it in their next models. I can foresee it becoming the new hot chick at the prom, which would be fantastic, if it brings the price of the 9015 down. They're both great movements, but the constant price hikes and longer lead times on the 9015 are out of hand.

As for the ads stalking you around the internet - it's all a part of my evil plan.

Tell your wife we've got free shipping on all NTH Subs through Christmas, with coupon code FREESHIP, and we're down to single- or low-double-digit inventory on most Subs models now.

Just sayin'...


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> The Barracuda is genius. *Very* clever indeed. It's begging for an ammo / vintaged leather strap.


Hell yeah it is!!

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Barracuda. Dark gilt. Do I really need 2 more?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> Barracuda. Dark gilt. Do I really need 2 more?


Uhm, yes?


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Need is a funny word. I have a feeling I'll be in on at least one of the new Subs. I'm not sure which one yet. The gilt looks good as do the blue ones. I just need to forward part of each paycheck to doc's bank so that I can get in on all his new offerings. Just about the time I start thinking I've built up the fund again he brings out a new model. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> Need is a funny word. I have a feeling I'll be in on at least one of the new Subs. I'm not sure which one yet. The gilt looks good as do the blue ones. I just need to forward part of each paycheck to doc's bank so that I can get in on all his new offerings. Just about the time I start thinking I've built up the fund again he brings out a new model.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thats why I intentionally used the word "need".


----------



## Saxman8845 (Jan 18, 2016)

docvail said:


> Dammit man, I'm a micro-owner, not a marriage counselor.
> 
> We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


He's dead Jim.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

Just in case you guys missed my suggestion in the BSHT.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

Hornet99 said:


> Of course I like you! Who couldn't? ;-)
> 
> Interesting you should make that last comment Doc, as per usual I decided on tomorrow's watch tonight and surprise, surprise I picked the NTH Näcken modern. OK, I wasn't enthralled by the bracelet quality, but after today and looking at the NTH with a new perspective I'm very happy with it (......and the other two b-)b-)), quality was certainly up there with the Oris.......


Do you have a link to your review/comparison to the Oris? I'd love to read it.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Siskiyoublues (Mar 17, 2016)

My favorite!


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Siskiyoublues said:


> My favorite!
> 
> View attachment 10193730


Mine too. Which strap do you have it on?


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

As a Nacken Vintage Blue owner, I know how gorgeous the blue NTHs are. I have one and yet that Amphion Vintage Blue looks very tempting. And I have an Antilles on order! I'll need a separate box for my NTHs.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Baccaruda! Yes, I'm that old.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

cowboys5sb1997 said:


> Barracuda and Nacken Modern Blue will be added to to collection. Guaranteed!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


Great minds think alike!!!

... but unfortunately, I can not guarantee, only want really bad at this stage!!! (must make it through Christmas first!!!)


----------



## Siskiyoublues (Mar 17, 2016)

hawkeye86 said:


> Mine too. Which strap do you have it on?


It's one of the Ohmeega style Natos from Phenomenato straps.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> *Näcken Modern Blue*
> 
> View attachment 10187746
> 
> ...


SOLD!!!!

I made the mistake on not buying a NTH on the first pre order and I won't do it again.

Just a couple of questions:

Is it possible to place an after market ceramic bezel on these watches?, for me they're perfect on everything except the steel bezel. I understand why you think it doesn't add enough value to justify the price hike, but in my case it does, just ask my Commander 300 and it will certify me as a knuckle head.

Why not a new Oberon?, just curious, I think it's a highly regarded piece and IIRC you like it a lot. Just curious, the Nacken is my favorite.


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Pato_Lucas said:


> SOLD!!!!
> 
> I made the mistake on not buying a NTH on the first pre order and I won't do it again.
> 
> ...


The bezel insert on NTH is of a customized size. It has a thicker diameter than your average insert.
My personal opinion is that the bezel insert on the NTH is awesome!

instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pato_Lucas said:


> SOLD!!!!
> 
> I made the mistake on not buying a NTH on the first pre order and I won't do it again.
> 
> ...


I'm not aware of any ceramic insert which would be compatible. You'd have to find one with the same interior and exterior diameter, and comparable, if not identical thickness and slope. Good luck with that.

However, I'd ask you to reserve judgement.

The Commander has an anodized aluminum bezel, like A LOT of other diving watches, within a WIDE price range. The top layer isn't much different than printing, and the underlying metal is softer.

By contrast, the Subs' bezels are steel, and the colors come from top-quality (top thickness) PVD. It's going to be MUCH more resilient.

Back in April, I sent three of the v.1 prototypes out into the world, to be used and abused by friends, and the two I've gotten back so far look pristine.

I also don't want to encourage people to try modifying my watches. These aren't $100 Seikos. The bezel assembly is not the same as Seiko's, which lends itself to modifications.

The click spring plate in ours can very easily be damaged just by removing the bezel ring. I actually replace the spring every time I remove the bezel from a customer's watch, because the bezel removal tool I use crushes the spring when the bezel pops off.

Removing the bezel ring (not the insert, but the actual ring itself) without warping it isn't easy, either. Pry it off asymmetrically with a case knife, and you'll likely ruin it. I have a special tool I use, which cost me over $200, and even with it, removing the bezel requires so much force that it hurts my hand.










Ceramic bezels are going to be harder to scratch, but they're not indestructible (nor are they cheap to replace): https://www.google.com/search?q=bro...ved=0ahUKEwiDzIXomPTQAhXo8YMKHR6EDRIQ_AUIBigB.

Our steel bezels may be less scratch-resistant, but otherwise, they are in fact indestructible.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> Why not a new Oberon?, just curious, I think it's a highly regarded piece and IIRC you like it a lot. Just curious, the Nacken is my favorite.


When I started thinking of new Subs versions, the most obvious versions were those people requested, so we're doing a blue Näcken Modern, a Root Beer, a Night Sub, and a Gilt version.

We explored a lot of alternative ideas beyond those, but I didn't see anything which seemed like it would be popular enough to justify making it.

The blue vintage Amphion was the last version we came up with, and it was basically one that was just tossed out there for consideration.

I guess I don't see the Oberon design warranting a new variant. It wasn't the most popular model from the first batch of 8, and is itself a bit of a niche play with more narrow appeal than the others, it seems.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## cerialphreak (May 31, 2015)

Sorry if this has been asked before, but are you planning to make more of the Vintage Black Nacken?



docvail said:


> Glad you guys like 'em.
> 
> We looked at a ton of different ideas, but when you produce in small volumes, you have to make some tough choices, and these were the five we thought most deserved life.
> 
> We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

The bezel on the blue nacken rocks...one
of the best I've seen color wise

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cerialphreak said:


> Sorry if this has been asked before, but are you planning to make more of the Vintage Black Nacken?


It hasn't been asked before, or if it has, not recently.

I haven't ruled it out. Nor have I thought much about including it in the next batch.

We produced each version in numbers according to how well they sold in pre-order up to our production start date. The vintage black almost didn't make it into production, we sold so few of them. Imagine my surprise when they were the first to sell out, by a country mile.

I'm still not sure what that means.

You'd probably say it indicates more demand than I realized, but having used the "percentage sold in pre-order" method for the last few productions, I'm finding that there's always some apparent imbalance in demand as we get low on inventory, and I'm not yet sure what adjustments I ought to make when determining production numbers, if any.

Generally, I'd prefer to make too few of something than too many.

All of which is a long way of saying I don't yet know, but also to give me cover if my decision disappoints anyone. It's my usual "talk long enough and they won't be able to remember what you said" method of being cagey.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> It hasn't been asked before, or if it has, not recently.
> 
> I haven't ruled it out. Nor have I thought much about including it in the next batch.
> 
> ...


Doc, will those who've got janis trading accounts get emails regarding the new subs? Just in case we miss any posts......


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Doc, will those who've got janis trading accounts get emails regarding the new subs? Just in case we miss any posts......


Yep.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> Yep.
> 
> We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


I better get over to the website and create an account then!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cerialphreak (May 31, 2015)

That's fair. Crossing my fingers for new stock!



docvail said:


> It hasn't been asked before, or if it has, not recently.
> 
> I haven't ruled it out. Nor have I thought much about including it in the next batch.
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sgt.brimer said:


> I better get over to the website and create an account then!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep.


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> Yep.


Done!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

The bezel was the thing that sold me on the subs. It's simply superb. If it was ceramic, I would not have bought it. It's the most beautiful blue bezel I've seen and that would not have been possible if it was ceramic. The color is incredible and changes with the light. If you are on the fence and not sure about the bezel material or color, they are perfect as they are.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'm not aware of any ceramic insert which would be compatible. You'd have to find one with the same interior and exterior diameter, and comparable, if not identical thickness and slope. Good luck with that.
> 
> However, I'd ask you to reserve judgement.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, I'll reserve judgement and try the steel bezel, worse case scenario these watches sell on the market for close as the preorder price so I wouldn't lose anything. But I think I'll never sell it, it just ticks all the right boxes.



docvail said:


> When I started thinking of new Subs versions, the most obvious versions were those people requested, so we're doing a blue Näcken Modern, a Root Beer, a Night Sub, and a Gilt version.
> 
> We explored a lot of alternative ideas beyond those, but I didn't see anything which seemed like it would be popular enough to justify making it.
> 
> ...


That's sad, I guess the Oberon is a watch for people who know and have seen too many watches.

I hope that the NTH subs become a fixture model who are re-stocked regularly, pretty much like the Melbourne watches. I don't know about you, but I think they're your best design: just claiming to have the slimiest 300m diver watch with 400mm is no joke!



Iliyan said:


> The bezel was the thing that sold me on the subs. It's simply superb. If it was ceramic, I would not have bought it. It's the most beautiful blue bezel I've seen and that would not have been possible if it was ceramic. The color is incredible and changes with the light. If you are on the fence and not sure about the bezel material or color, they are perfect as they are.


Yes, to be honest the textured dial doesn't speak to me, but those colors in a Nacken modern dial with the white hands, just WOW!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Pato_Lucas said:


> Yes, to be honest the textured dial doesn't speak to me, but those colors in a Nacken modern dial with the white hands, just WOW!


This is why I love my Nacken Modern. For the new versions, I might be easily persuaded to get the Nacken Modern blue and the Amphion Gilt. I may have to get a separate storage box just for NTH watches.

I may be going upscale in many ways but I really like these subs......


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Tanjecterly said:


> This is why I love my Nacken Modern. For the new versions, I might be easily persuaded to get the Nacken Modern blue and the Amphion Gilt. I may have to get a separate storage box just for NTH watches.
> 
> I may be going upscale in many ways but I really like these subs......


Yes, the NTH watches just nail it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## stewham (Oct 23, 2011)




----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Pato_Lucas said:


> I hope that the NTH subs become a fixture model who are re-stocked regularly, pretty much like the Melbourne watches. I don't know about you, but I think they're your best design: just claiming to have the slimiest 300m diver watch with 400mm is no joke!


Wait...400mm thickness?!?
So like this right?









P.S. I know you meant 40mm, but the image was still funny in my head


----------



## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

Tanjecterly said:


> This is why I love my Nacken Modern. For the new versions, I might be easily persuaded to get the Nacken Modern blue and the Amphion Gilt. I may have to get a separate storage box just for NTH watches.
> 
> I may be going upscale in many ways but I really like these subs......


What are you talking about? The NTH subs are upscale. ;-)

The NTH watches punch way above their weight class if you ask me. I think you'd have to go quite a bit above $1K to match their design, fit, and finish from one of the more well known brands.

And BTW, I love my Näcken Modern too. And for that matter my Oberon. Just gorgeous pieces.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

ConfusedOne said:


> Wait...400mm thickness?!?
> So like this right?
> 
> View attachment 10202186
> ...


Dang, you got me on that one, I actually meant to talk about the 11,5 mm thickness, but it was already late and if I'm not the brightest orange in the orchard in waking hours, much less late at night.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

I got a laugh out of "the slimiest 300m diver". Autocorrect and late nights make for some interesting messages. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

hawkeye86 said:


> I got a laugh out of "the slimiest 300m diver". Autocorrect and late nights make for some interesting messages.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And English not being your native language


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> I got a laugh out of "the slimiest 300m diver". Autocorrect and late nights make for some interesting messages.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wow. Don't know how I missed that.

I'm slipping.

Must be all the slime...

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Wow. Don't know how I missed that.
> 
> I'm slipping.
> 
> ...


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

My favouritist watch...........










This one has ended up as the most worn watch two years on the trot! For me it is the perfect size and it sits so well on my wrist. If I had to keep only one of my watches I think it would end up being this one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mid afternoon change to the Champagne Antilles, just back from the photographer.


























__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content

















Lovin' it.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I now agree with those other guys around here... You are a very bad man, a VERY bad bad man.

And btw, your pics are not showing unless I click on them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> I now agree with those other guys around here... You are a very bad man, a VERY bad bad man.
> 
> And btw, your pics are not showing unless I click on them.


Yeah, I tried to copy/paste from another post, but the forum doesn't like to do that with pics.

How about now?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Lume shot!


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Lume shot!
> 
> View attachment 10220970


I can't see that one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Iliyan said:


> I can't see that one.


Howzabout now?

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

The Nacken visits Universal!










Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Howzabout now?
> 
> We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


All good now. Great lume on that thing! I wouldn't say no to more pictures of the Antilles...please?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Iliyan said:


> All good now. Great lume on that thing! I wouldn't say no to more pictures of the Antilles...please?


Tomorrow.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Two things keep amazing me...

(1) Doc's "blue dials" are so so tough to take a photo in which they actually look blue.

and

(2) Doc's lume shots always get the dial AND the crown to glow. I almost never see my crowns glowing... almost never.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



fearlessleader said:


> Two things keep amazing me...
> 
> (1) Doc's "blue dials" are so so tough to take a photo in which they actually look blue.
> 
> ...


1) They are blue alright and not that hard to capture. The second picture was even taken in terrible bar light with my phone.

















2) My crown glows all the time. Tip - tilt the camera so the crown will be included in the picture. And there you have it - dial AND crown in the same shot. Both pictures were taken with my 3 year old phone.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

cowboys5sb1997 said:


> The Nacken visits Universal!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've missed you, Bill, and especially your unfocused hairy arm shots!


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

hwa said:


> I've missed you, Bill, and especially your unfocused hairy arm shots!


Thanks Andrew, missed you too! Lol....

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## whoa (May 5, 2013)

Can anyone post sole comparison shots of the subs with say a Damasko da3x series.. The only 40mm I have! 

/insert clever or funny note here\


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Every time Doc posts pictures of his upcoming watches, I have to question my choices, both in life and in NTH watches. Perhaps I should just give in and buy them all so I have no doubts as to which choice to pick for the Azores and Antilles.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



whoa said:


> Can anyone post sole comparison shots of the subs with say a Damasko da3x series.. The only 40mm I have!
> 
> /insert clever or funny note here\


I can, but what specifically do you want to see? Very different watches.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## whoa (May 5, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> I can, but what specifically do you want to see? Very different watches.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome! Just to see how it wears! Maybe a few wrist shots from 40-50cm

/insert clever or funny note here\


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


The black Antilles must be jealous of all the pictures of its brothers. I think it should be next...


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



whoa said:


> Awesome! Just to see how it wears! Maybe a few wrist shots from 40-50cm
> 
> /insert clever or funny note here\



























Damasko DA36 for reference:


----------



## whoa (May 5, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Iliyan said:


> Damasko DA36 for reference:


Sweet! The Damasko wears larger since it's all dial, and all of my other watches are 42-43.. So can't really figure out if it will look small.. The new blue nacken looks good! Whats your wrist size?

/insert clever or funny note here\


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

If you're used to 42mm divers, a 40mm pilot will not wear small.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

hwa said:


> If you're used to 42mm divers, a 40mm pilot will not wear small.


Very very true, well done.

Ric


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



whoa said:


> Sweet! The Damasko wears larger since it's all dial, and all of my other watches are 42-43.. So can't really figure out if it will look small.. The new blue nacken looks good! Whats your wrist size?
> 
> /insert clever or funny note here\


My wrist is 6.75". They seem to wear about the same. The Damasko is all dial, but I think the muted color of the case and the black dial make it look smaller than if it was a 40mm white dress watch for example. The Nacken has more vivid colors so even though it's dial is smaller, I would say they wear about the same. My other most worn diver is the Magrette MPP at 44mm and the Nacken does not feel tiny when I am switching to it.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



whoa said:


> Sweet! The Damasko wears larger since it's all dial, and all of my other watches are 42-43.. So can't really figure out if it will look small.. The new blue nacken looks good! Whats your wrist size?
> 
> /insert clever or funny note here\


All 3 are 40mm, 11.5-12mm thickness and lug to lug 47-48mm:


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

Bundling up coz it's -8 °C but with wind chill it feels like -17 °C brrrrrr










Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Iliyan said:


> The black Antilles must be jealous of all the pictures of its brothers. I think it should be next...


Next on its way to a blogger?

Because it's on its way to a blogger.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

More pics of Blue. These are from lactardjosh.



















We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Trying to imagine what a blue looks like.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I think it looks about like this one, minus the facepalm









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

^^ Nah... that's vintage... I'm thinking the modern blue. 

Nice try, though, but you could use a shave, dude.


----------



## whoa (May 5, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Iliyan said:


> My wrist is 6.75". They seem to wear about the same. The Damasko is all dial, but I think the muted color of the case and the black dial make it look smaller than if it was a 40mm white dress watch for example. The Nacken has more vivid colors so even though it's dial is smaller, I would say they wear about the same. My other most worn diver is the Magrette MPP at 44mm and the Nacken does not feel tiny when I am switching to it.


Sweet! Thanks for the pic!

/insert clever or funny note here\


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tanjecterly said:


> ^^ Nah... that's vintage... I'm thinking the modern blue.
> 
> Nice try, though, but you could use a shave, dude.


You're a stubborn one. Gonna' be the same blue. Imagine it without the bumps. And whiter lume. Sheesh.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> You're a stubborn one. Gonna' be the same blue. Imagine it without the bumps. And whiter lume. Sheesh.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the help envisioning what it will look like! If it's the same blue, and I have no reason to think it won't, it will be a insta-buy for me; I have particular weakness for blues.

And, yes, I'm a stubborn person as my wife can affirm.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

docvail said:


> More pics of Blue. These are from lactardjosh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn am I glad I picked this one. It's a beauty.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Yep, you CAN get pictures of Doc's blue dials that look blue. But, at least with the 300, maybe only 1 out of 5 pics does the blue look blue.

Those blue Antilles look sweet. Too bad I could only afford one and ended up not going with the Antilles.

and... folks... remember when quoting gobs of pics to just add a sentence or three, you CAN edit the quoted part and not include all of those pics. Just sayin'


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Tanjecterly said:


> Trying to imagine what a blue looks like.


It looks on fleek man, on fleek.



Tanjecterly said:


> Thanks for the help envisioning what it will look like! If it's the same blue, and I have no reason to think it won't, it will be a insta-buy for me; I have particular weakness for blues.


I think it'll be like the Nacken vintage blue but with a plain dial, also an instant buy for me.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I was out for a drive.










Then I came back to the house.










I was outside for ten minutes, on an overcast day.

#LumeKillz

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Under the heading of "seen around Philly"...










Well alright then...

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

Super excited for the Modern Blue.
Is there anything I could say that might encourage a 'date at 6 o clock's option??
I'll just give you my money now!


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Weird sign to have up in a sauna. You were in a sauna, right? That's the only explanation I can come up with for the haze there in the photo...



docvail said:


> Under the heading of "seen around Philly"...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keefy said:


> Super excited for the Modern Blue.
> Is there anything I could say that might encourage a 'date at 6 o clock's option??
> I'll just give you my money now!


You can have the date window anywhere you like it, as long as it's nowhere, because that model won't have any date window at all.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



CMFord said:


> Weird sign to have up in a sauna. You were in a sauna, right? That's the only explanation I can come up with for the haze there in the photo...


That's actually steam coming off my body. I must be low on anti-freeze, and running hot today.


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Scorpene for penultimate work day










Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> You can have the date window anywhere you like it, as long as it's nowhere, because that model won't have any date window at all.


I like the way you think 



arrvoo said:


> Scorpene for penultimate work day
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think this is the second best design next to the Nacken modern, I was seriously expecting to see it on the second batch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, seen around Philly...










We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I can happily report that in the wee hours of tomorrow morning, I'll be pulling the trigger on an L&H Orthos Commander 300 WUS LE no date. Proud to say that this watch will be the last watch I purchase in 2016!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



sgt.brimer said:


> I can happily report that in the wee hours of tomorrow morning, I'll be pulling the trigger on an L&H Orthos Commander 300 WUS LE no date. Proud to say that this watch will be the last watch I purchase in 2016!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Better move fast. This land abounds with ruffians and varlets. Piss on 'em.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Better move fast. This land is full of ruffians and varlets. Piss on 'em.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's already locked in so little chance of my sale being lost (knock on wood). I figured it was just my good fortune that I spotted the watch and talked to the owner and we agreed to the terms of the sale. Perhaps I should buy a lottery ticket too 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



sgt.brimer said:


> It's already locked in so little chance of my sale being lost (knock on wood). I figured it was just my good fortune that I spotted the watch and talked to the owner and we agreed to the terms of the sale. Perhaps I should buy a lottery ticket too
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Congo rats. I love mine. Very happy with how that project turned out.

I assume that's the one I saw for sale from @CMFord?


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Congo rats. I love mine. Very happy with how that project turned out.
> 
> I assume that's the one I saw for sale from @CMFord?


No but if I had the money I'd buy his too!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Same watch, different shirt. 









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Congo rats. I love mine. Very happy with how that project turned out.
> 
> I assume that's the one I saw for sale from @CMFord?


I saw one on blue on the micro brand sales Facebook group, maybe it's that one.


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Pato_Lucas said:


> I saw one on blue on the micro brand sales Facebook group, maybe it's that one.


Nope, but now that the deal is done I can tell you it's a black dial faced and comes with a nice matching NATO.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

sgt.brimer said:


> Nope, but now that the deal is done I can tell you it's a black dial faced and comes with a nice matching NATO.


Congratulations, I have a black no date and it's awesome, I'm confident you won't regret that purchase.


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Pato_Lucas said:


> Congratulations, I have a black no date and it's awesome, I'm confident you won't regret that purchase.


I don't think I will either. When I started following this thread I was immediately in love with that watch, so I felt pretty lucky getting one so quickly (and honestly I didn't think anyone would be selling theirs). I've been impressed with everything about Janis Trading and what they are making. As a diehard Seiko owner, I didn't expect to jump into the micro brand market, but I'm sold on what Janis Trading is doing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

That was mine - I listed it there and here in f29. Sold it and shipped it this morning and I already sort of miss it. The fact I didn't wear it much along with the knowledge that there are people out there who missed the boat on it told me it was time to let it go. It's the first Lew & Huey / NTH watch I've sold.



Pato_Lucas said:


> I saw one on blue on the micro brand sales Facebook group, maybe it's that one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If I don't get the chance to say it later, Merry Christmas, gentlemen (and any ladies foolish enough to hang around here)!


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Now that CMFord sold his watch, that frees up the funds for me to look at pre-ordering one of the NTH Tropicals at the start of 2017 and a Vintage Blue Nacken at some point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Good call! I have a Vanilla Azores on order and am really looking forward to the BoR bracelet, Swiss movement, and all the general DocVail goodness I've come to appreciate and expect in his watches.



sgt.brimer said:


> Now that CMFord sold his watch, that frees up the funds for me to look at pre-ordering one of the NTH Tropicals at the start of 2017 and a Vintage Blue Nacken at some point.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

CMFord said:


> Good call! I have a Vanilla Azores on order and am really looking forward to the BoR bracelet, Swiss movement, and all the general DocVail goodness I've come to appreciate and expect in his watches.


I'm thinking of the Mint Azores with a rubber strap thrown in for good measure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

sgt.brimer said:


> Now that CMFord sold his watch, that frees up the funds for me to look at pre-ordering one of the NTH Tropicals at the start of 2017 and a Vintage Blue Nacken at some point.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Excellent choices. I already have a Nacken Vintage Blue and preordered an Antilles. They'll keep my Phantom company. Great stuff from Chris.


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Of the next watches to be released, I've got my eyes on the Amphion Vintage Blue, which will be a suitable companion to the Nacken Vintage Blue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

Did I miss something? I've seen odd mentions here and there about the second wave of subs, but the only comment I've seen from Doc is that there will be a second wave, and it is very likely to feature a new wave of designs.

Is there specific info about what we can expect?


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

Double post


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Cosmodromedary said:


> Did I miss something? I've seen odd mentions here and there about the second wave of subs, but the only comment I've seen from Doc is that there will be a second wave, and it is very likely to feature a new wave of designs.
> 
> Is there specific info about what we can expect?


Doc has posted renders of almost all of the variations, he posted them on BEST submariner thread, as well as the NTH thread. They are amazing....

instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

the_watchier said:


> Doc has posted renders of almost all of the variations, he posted them on BEST submariner thread, as well as the NTH thread. They are amazing....
> 
> instagram @ the_watchier


Much obliged good sir!


----------



## the5rivers (Mar 10, 2016)

Merry Christmas to all you enablers, especially doc! 

Glad I found this thread and brand in the last year. Enjoy the members, the pics, the stories and of course the product! 



Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Merry Christmas!










We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

A date and no date Santa Cruz. My son came in for Cristmas Eve and we happened to be wearing the same time piece...almost. 









Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Im with doc









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

My Orthos Commander is in town, now I'm waiting for the mailman to deliver it. Today is really Christmas as far as I'm concerned!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

It's here! I have to say, the presentation box is pretty awesome, certainly beats the presentation box I got for my Gruppo Gamma Divemaster! Took me a few tries to get the bracelet off so I can wear it with the provided NATO Bond. I want to say a big thank you to Mr Jensen for not only working with me on this purchase, but for taking the watch with him to ensure it was mailed out on the 23rd when funds were received.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^^^Nice! Enjoy it and wear it in good health, mate!


----------



## Jguitron (Aug 28, 2013)

docvail said:


> I just posted this over in the BSHT thread.
> 
> My team has been cooking up some new versions of the Subs. Five of them, actually.
> 
> ...


Very nicely done!

Can't wait to see the proto pics.

May not be able to resist the root beer!

Maybe a new thread should be started not to miss a beat.

Cheers!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)

This new barracuda seems neat. But, in the meantime, I am quite pleased with my Santa Cruz for the morning.


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

It's interesting to see prototypes being made for a production watch. I'm guessing that just sample dials and bezels with the new color schemes need to be seen as a whole product? Just curious and anticipating the gilt dial. Who doesn't love gilt dials!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

The first review of the Tropics is out, I cannot wait to get my Antilles.


Zundfolge said:


> Check out my hands-on review of the new NTH Tropics. I've got a Mint Azores and a Champagne Antilles. The Time Bum: NTH Tropics: Azores and Antilles
> View attachment 10353138


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

This is usually when I post some sort of retrospective on the year past. Honestly, my head hurts, and most of it is a blur, much of which I'm struggling to remember.

I think 2016 was a crappy year for most people, judging by the comments I read on Facebook (resolution number 1, cut back on looking at Facebook by 90%). I think I speak for many when I say I'm looking forward to changing the calendar.

Was it all that bad? On paper, no, not really.

We finished deliveries on the Phantom pre-orders in January, made delivery on the Orthos II/Commander 300 project in April, and launched NTH with the Subs in May, each of those productions more successful than the previous ones, and marking new high-water marks for this still-young business.

Just looking at that list, you'd think it was an awesome year, especially if you didn't know about all the production delays and shipping disasters involved.

Still, considering how bad 2016 turned out to be for the industry in general, I'm willing to look at this year's results and be thankful they weren't worse, rather than feel bad they weren't all I expected them to be when the year started.

I took another almost-free family vacation in June, courtesy of the two alcoholics who claim to be my mother and step-father. Cape Cod wasn't sweltering hot (I hate sweating), and we apparently went the week before it gets mobbed, so that worked out well.

Plus, I went to Hong Kong in September (which was sweltering hot). I mean, if you didn't read that thread, you might not get it, but that trip is worth 20 hours on a plane with a barefoot dude on one side and a crying baby on the other. Being able to hang out with Chip, Sujain, Jason and Hong Kong Ed (plus Clara and some of the other characters) just made it epic. That will surely go down as one of my top 10 life experiences.

Then there was that Microbrand Meetup in DC in November. That was amazing, considering two guys (The Time Bum and Bill McDowell of McDowell Time) put it all together in just a couple of months. I finally got to meet my micro-brand idol, Fred Amos of Bernhardt, who did NOT disappoint, at all.

My kid started taking guitar lessons. After six months of hearing him butcher chords, a few weeks ago I heard the opening riff to Rush's "Fly by Night" coming from the other room. Last week he played a bit of Cream's "Sunshine of your Love", and the opening to Green Day's "Good Riddance" for my Dad. There's a very powerful and strange sense of parental pride watching your kid do something you can't do.

I'll only mention politics for the sake of saying I'm happy to put the politics of the last year in the past, and hope no one feels compelled to rehash them.

I'm sure a lot of other good things happened this year. I'm just struggling to recall many. A good friend of mine who'd gone through a rough divorce got remarried. That was good to see, and helped make up for all the sick kids, deaths in the families, natural disasters, and other groin-kicks 2016 delivered.

I can't help but repeatedly remember and laugh to myself when I recall a conversation with someone close to me late in 2015, in which I said 2016 was going to be awesome, and her saying the even years were always the good ones. Yeah, not in my experience.

At any rate, all the doom and gloom aside, I am optimistic about 2017, and as ever, I remain sincerely thankful for the many friendships this hobby and business have brought into my life. Thank you all for being here, and being even remotely interested in what I'm doing. This was the year I came to realize just how much it means to me to have people say they actually like my work.

I still miss making lots of money, but if I'm going to be underpaid either way, I'll take "nice job, Chris" over "you suck" any day.

Happy New Year, one and all.

I'll see you all on the other side of midnight...


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Happy New Year Chris. All the best to you , your family and your business in 2017. 

You have a lot to be proud of in 2016 and I'm looking forward to seeing what you have up your sleeve in the coming year. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Rang out 2016 with one of its bright spots...









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Nice job, Chris. May the road run low and the wind be on your back in the new year.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

I didn't know where else to ask this... I was fortunate to find a Blue dialed Riccardo. When I click the stop then the reset chrono button, the chrono hand sometimes zeroes back to twelve and sometimes half a second or a whole second before twelve. I know that some chronos have a way to reset where the hand zeroes out. Is there a way for the user to "fix" this on the Riccardo? (and yes, I did look on the Janis / L&H Web site first) Thanks


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



fearlessleader said:


> I didn't know where else to ask this... I was fortunate to find a Blue dialed Riccardo. When I click the stop then the reset chrono button, the chrono hand sometimes zeroes back to twelve and sometimes half a second or a whole second before twelve. I know that some chronos have a way to reset where the hand zeroes out. Is there a way for the user to "fix" this on the Riccardo? (and yes, I did look on the Janis / L&H Web site first) Thanks


Welcome to the joys of the ST19...

Think of it like a beauty mark, Marilyn Monroe's mole.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fearlessleader said:


> I didn't know where else to ask this... I was fortunate to find a Blue dialed Riccardo. When I click the stop then the reset chrono button, the chrono hand sometimes zeroes back to twelve and sometimes half a second or a whole second before twelve. I know that some chronos have a way to reset where the hand zeroes out. Is there a way for the user to "fix" this on the Riccardo? (and yes, I did look on the Janis / L&H Web site first) Thanks


Nope.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Welcome to the joys of the ST19...


Thanks, and to Doc too. Ok... is it a minor repair task (<$50), or ... if you have to ask, you can't afford it? Are the much more expensive Swiss movements less likely to have this issue? Just curious.

P.S. You've shattered my long time dreams of getting a Riccardo. I didn't like those movements, but figured that if Doc used 'em, they must be fine. I'm guessing this is why he hasn't used these since  other than that, though, it's a nice watch!

As for the Tropics... drooling drooling Niceeeeeeeee


----------



## hikeNbike (Oct 26, 2013)

Kind of wish the modern blue would be the darker blue like in the pic rather than the lighter blue like the previous vintage but still may grab one. Great looking designs overall.

yadda yadda tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



fearlessleader said:


> Thanks, and to Doc too. Ok... is it a minor repair task (<$50), or ... if you have to ask, you can't afford it? Are the much more expensive Swiss movements less likely to have this issue? Just curious.
> 
> P.S. You've shattered my long time dreams of getting a Riccardo. I didn't like those movements, but figured that if Doc used 'em, they must be fine. I'm guessing this is why he hasn't used these since  other than that, though, it's a nice watch!
> 
> As for the Tropics... drooling drooling Niceeeeeeeee


The "way to re-zero a chronograph" question relates to quartz chronos, which generally have a mechanism for re-zeroing the chrono seconds built into the module.

With mechanical chronos (and meca-quartz chronos), the torque involved in the instant-flyback reset can overwhelm the friction holding the seconds hand in place on the pinion, which causes it to reset somewhere other than zero. This typically doesn't happen with the slower, sweeping re-set of the seconds hand in quartz chronos.

There's no built-in way to re-zero it with a mechanical chrono. You need to remove the seconds hand and re-set it, or repeatedly start/stop/reset the chrono seconds until you get it right, basically, trial and error. Neither method can prevent it from happening again.

This can and does happen with any/all mechanical chrono movement (or mechanical chrono function), including the Swiss and Russian movements, though your mileage may vary depending on the fitment and length/weight of that seconds hand.

It's not uncommon to have it happen a lot with one model, and never hear of it with another model, leading some to think it has to do with poor assembly from one company but not the other (Melbourne hasn't had a problem with it on the meca-quartz Carlton, but I believe Vratislavia stopped using the meca-quartz movements because of it), whereas it's more about getting lucky with the hand fitment.

It has nothing to do with any movement specifically, and isn't among the reasons I stopped using the ST19 movement. I stopped using the ST19 because we had a high defect rate with them, and Seagull refused to provide adequate support. I'm not even sure the automatic versions are still available.

Please understand that my ability to provide support for a sold-out/discontinued model with a warranty that ran out at least two years ago is limited. I went to great lengths to ensure everyone who purchased a Riccardo had a working watch or got their money back, including extending an offer of support/replacement more than a year after the warranty expired.

In the future, if you need post-sale support, please do me a favor, and contact me via the website's contact form, or by email. I promise you'll get a quick and courteous response.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hikeNbike said:


> Kind of wish the modern blue would be the darker blue like in the pic rather than the lighter blue like the previous vintage but still may grab one. Great looking designs overall.
> 
> yadda yadda tapatalk


Not wanting to get into how dark it is or isn't, let me just say that the color is actually darker than it appears in many online pics. The color appears brighter in some conditions because of the reflectiveness, which is a function of the finish. The more reflective the finish, the wider the range of appearances (lighter to darker) you'll see.

The available finishes are glossy, which is the most reflective, matte, which is the least reflective, and brushed, which is in between.

We didn't go with matte because that finish is achieved by bead-blasting the metal, which gives it a nice, satin finish with very low variation, but unfortunately also shows marks very easily. Instead, we went with brushed, which resists marks better, and hides marks much better, but at the cost of higher reflectiveness, and more variation in appearance.


----------



## hikeNbike (Oct 26, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Thanks Doc. This is on my list to try if finances allow. Need to decide on which one. Waiting for prototypes but the Modern blue is in the lead. I am intrigued by the Barracuda as well.

yadda yadda tapatalk


----------



## hikeNbike (Oct 26, 2013)

Will add the Amphibion Dark Gilt is fantastic looking. If I didnt have a Raven Vintage in the stable that would probably be the one.

yadda yadda tapatalk


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The "way to re-zero a chronograph" question relates to quartz chronos, which generally have a mechanism for re-zeroing the chrono seconds built into the module.
> ...
> In the future, if you need post-sale support, please do me a favor, and contact me via the website's contact form, or by email. I promise you'll get a quick and courteous response.


For a 2nd or nth (no pun intended) hand watch out of warranty, I never even thought of my question as being a post-sale support query. It was a mistaken view that all chronos might have some reset-to-zero trick that, d'uh, only applies to Quartz chronos. Didn't mean to bother you, but do appreciate the details very much. Thanks.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



fearlessleader said:


> For a 2nd or nth (no pun intended) hand watch out of warranty, I never even thought of my question as being a post-sale support query. It was a mistaken view that all chronos might have some reset-to-zero trick that, d'uh, only applies to Quartz chronos. Didn't mean to bother you, but do appreciate the details very much. Thanks.


While we're at it, if you get the bug to seek a replacement ST19 in the future, you'll likely need to source new subdial hands, as they tend to not be reusable. Dunno why that is, but that's been the report.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



fearlessleader said:


> For a 2nd or nth (no pun intended) hand watch out of warranty, I never even thought of my question as being a post-sale support query. It was a mistaken view that all chronos might have some reset-to-zero trick that, d'uh, only applies to Quartz chronos. Didn't mean to bother you, but do appreciate the details very much. Thanks.


No bother. It's just that email is a more effective way for me to provide post-sale support, and I prefer not to be forced to use discussion boards for that purpose.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## westNE (Nov 23, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Could I trouble one of you guys with a rather round 7.25" for a wrist shot with an Amphion or Nacken? My is about 2.5" across the top and I'm trying to get a feel for wrist presence. Thanks!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## davidozo (Sep 4, 2015)

I opened the new year with the purchase, perhaps the last of the series Santa Cruz.
I hope this will bring me luck and to you Doc.
E 'was love at first sight, but I was on the list this spring but were too long time to achieve these sub, and I left.
A case has brought me on your way back just the first day of 2017 and I crushed the button.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Got a new Hirsch strap for the Scorpene today and it looks perfect!
Only thing not so perfect was the price, but the price is not as bad as Hodinkee at least.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



westNE said:


> Could I trouble one of you guys with a rather round 7.25" for a wrist shot with an Amphion or Nacken? My is about 2.5" across the top and I'm trying to get a feel for wrist presence. Thanks!
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


My wrist is not quite 7.25". I'm not sure how round it is, but if round wrists go together with being overweight, Bob's yer uncle...


----------



## westNE (Nov 23, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My wrist is not quite 7.25". I'm not sure how round it is, but if round wrists go together with being overweight, Bob's yer uncle...
> 
> View attachment 10390562


That's the pic I needed, thank you doc! I've got a second hand Amphion on the way, was a bit worried it would feel a bit small. My only comparables so far have been a big crown TC which was a bit small and a 43mm CW Trident pro that was uncomfortably large. It appears as though this might be the perfect middle ground.

Thanks again! 
Nick

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It is the perfect middle ground, and I'll Indian leg-wrestle any man who says otherwise.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Airports again.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Back to work with the Acionna this #twocrowntuesday


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

It's become my daily wear!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sgt.brimer said:


> It's become my daily wear!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's my same setup - black no-date on the regimental stripe NATO!


----------



## marc4pt0 (Apr 14, 2016)

Shortly after joining this forum I learned about the Riccardo. It became an instant grail for me. Sadly I'm letting it go to fund another hobby. I figured it'd be the fastest to sell among my small collection. If anybody is interested hit me up. I just posted it in the sell forum. 

That said, I absolutely dig my Commander 300!


----------



## marc4pt0 (Apr 14, 2016)

Funny, when I see the pic above (taken last summer) I'm starting to second guess my decision to let it go


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

marc4pt0 said:


> Funny, when I see the pic above (taken last summer) I'm starting to second guess my decision to let it go


----------



## davidozo (Sep 4, 2015)

A curiosity Doc, if I may, why in the first segment of the Sub bracelet, the one near the carrure, remains exposed the pin?


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

So Doc, any chance of you ever doing another run of Commander 300's, or ever making a new "orthos" watch with that logo?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davidozo said:


> A curiosity Doc, if I may, why in the first segment of the Sub bracelet, the one near the carrure, remains exposed the pin?


I'm sorry, David, if I'm mistaking what you're asking me here.

Your picture does look "normal", if you're asking if there's something wrong.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> So Doc, any chance of you ever doing another run of Commander 300's, or ever making a new "orthos" watch with that logo?


The Commander 300 was a limited edition project for the forum. Unfortunately, they limited me to just 250 pieces. Ethics and a desire to preserve my reputation prevent me from making more.

That's not to say I couldn't do something _similar_. I'm just not sure what that would look like, or how I'd pull it off in such a way that the finished product would make sense - is it a L&H, is "Orthos" a new brand, is it a forbidden re-issue of the Commander 300, etc, etc?

For now, I've got other models planned, and plenty to keep me occupied.


----------



## davidozo (Sep 4, 2015)

No, Doc Ok.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

davidozo said:


> A curiosity Doc, if I may, why in the first segment of the Sub bracelet, the one near the carrure, remains exposed the pin?


I think "carrure" means "shoulders," thus lugs, so perhaps the question is why the lugs are drilled, ie exposing the pin?

If thats the question, David, the answer is that it makes for easy strap change

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> I think "carrure" means "shoulders," thus lugs, so perhaps the question is why the lugs are drilled, ie exposing the pin?
> 
> If thats the question, David, the answer is that it makes for easy strap change
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think he means the exposed pin in the first link, specifically, why it's exposed.

Honestly, I don't know. That's just how the bracelets are made. It never occurred to me that I should ask.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

I think he is asking why you can see what appears to be a pin beyond the lugs connecting the end link and the first link...isn't that a rivet in place of a pin that keeps the end links attached when the bracelet is removed? I really appreciate having the end links stay connected whenever I remove the bracelet.



hwa said:


> I think "carrure" means "shoulders," thus lugs, so perhaps the question is why the lugs are drilled, ie exposing the pin?
> 
> If thats the question, David, the answer is that it makes for easy strap change
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## davidozo (Sep 4, 2015)

Doc is, exactly, was what I wanted to say. They are usually hidden in the bracelet polishing.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I think he means the exposed pin in the first link, specifically, why it's exposed.
> 
> Honestly, I don't know. That's just how the bracelets are made. It never occurred to me that I should ask.


On some watches, including my SMP, the endlinks can be removed from the rest of the bracelet by removing that particular pin. That link has an arrow stamped in it, just like those closest to the clasp. Presumably, that is so you could mate some other kind of strap to the endlink. Personally, I dislike that look, but I know that Tag Heuer and others have married leather straps to metal endlinks. Doesn't look like that's the point of the pin on the NTH bracelet, but there you go.


----------



## davidozo (Sep 4, 2015)

This one example.


----------



## kirkryanm (Jan 5, 2016)

My countertop provides a nice background.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMFord said:


> I think he is asking why you can see what appears to be a pin beyond the lugs connecting the end link and the first link...isn't that a rivet in place of a pin that keeps the end links attached when the bracelet is removed? I really appreciate having the end links stay connected whenever I remove the bracelet.


Agreed, it appears David was asking about it, and I believe it is indeed a rivet holding the end-link to the next link in the chain, but I'm not sure why they'd leave it visible if it's not removable, yet they figured a way to conceal whatever hardware is holding the other non-removable links together.

It doesn't appear to make much sense, but it's one of those things I never deemed important enough to figure out.



hwa said:


> On some watches, including my SMP, the endlinks can be removed from the rest of the bracelet by removing that particular pin. That link has an arrow stamped in it, just like those closest to the clasp. Presumably, that is so you could mate some other kind of strap to the endlink. Personally, I dislike that look, but I know that Tag Heuer and others have married leather straps to metal endlinks. Doesn't look like that's the point of the pin on the NTH bracelet, but there you go.


The end-links to the Cerberus and Orthos are both held to the next link with the same spring bar that attaches them to the bracelet, and thus removing the bracelet from the watch also decouples the end-links from the bracelet.

But also, agreed, I never liked the "end-links on a strap" look, either...



davidozo said:


> This one example.


Yep. I know some guys like that look, but I ain't one of them.

As far as I know, the end-links are not meant to be removed from the bracelet, but I may be wrong.



kirkryanm said:


> My countertop provides a nice background.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Non sequitur for the win!!!


----------



## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My wrist is not quite 7.25". I'm not sure how round it is, but if round wrists go together with being overweight, Bob's yer uncle...
> 
> View attachment 10390562


That is the V1 prototype, is it not? I think I notice some silver snowflake hands there.

"Try to learn something about everything and everything about something." -- Thomas H. Huxley

Follow me on Instagram - @lifetrekker_


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



LifeTrekker said:


> That is the V1 prototype, is it not? I think I notice some silver snowflake hands there.
> 
> "Try to learn something about everything and everything about something." -- Thomas H. Huxley
> 
> Follow me on Instagram - @lifetrekker_


You are correct sir.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The Commander 300 was a limited edition project for the forum. Unfortunately, they limited me to just 250 pieces. Ethics and a desire to preserve my reputation prevent me from making more.
> 
> That's not to say I couldn't do something _similar_. I'm just not sure what that would look like, or how I'd pull it off in such a way that the finished product would make sense - is it a L&H, is "Orthos" a new brand, is it a forbidden re-issue of the Commander 300, etc, etc?
> 
> For now, I've got other models planned, and plenty to keep me occupied.


Ed is making a reissue of the Bund project with a different bezel and nobody's crying murder over it, it's just a version 2.0

I'm really interested on seeing your own take on the Commander 300, but then again, I'm also very interested on the things on the future so I understand why making a Commander 2.0 isn't a big priority.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pato_Lucas said:


> Ed is making a reissue of the Bund project with a different bezel and nobody's crying murder over it, it's just a version 2.0
> 
> I'm really interested on seeing your own take on the Commander 300, but then again, I'm also very interested on the things on the future so I understand why making a Commander 2.0 isn't a big priority.


Yeah I was looking at it myself yesterday and thinking maybe a tag aquaracer inspired bezel, and just a slightly reworked dial would be really all it needed. But Doc has gotta do what he has gotta do. If he ever sees real merit in a redesign or inspiration for something better he can act on it as needed. Consumer suggestions and feedback are great, but the creator needs to be the real backbone of any products design or it will probably fall flat long term.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pato_Lucas said:


> Ed is making a reissue of the Bund project with a different bezel and nobody's crying murder over it, it's just a version 2.0


Where is the thread for the Bund project reissue?

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pato_Lucas said:


> Ed is making a reissue of the Bund project with a different bezel and nobody's crying murder over it, it's just a version 2.0
> 
> I'm really interested on seeing your own take on the Commander 300, but then again, I'm also very interested on the things on the future so I understand why making a Commander 2.0 isn't a big priority.


Let's all go get HK Ed. Torches on the right. Pitchforks on the left...

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Karkarov said:


> Yeah I was looking at it myself yesterday and thinking maybe a tag aquaracer inspired bezel, and just a slightly reworked dial would be really all it needed. But Doc has gotta do what he has gotta do. If he ever sees real merit in a redesign or inspiration for something better he can act on it as needed. Consumer suggestions and feedback are great, but the creator needs to be the real backbone of any products design or it will probably fall flat long term.


That goes without saying, Doc always listens but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll follow in our suggestions.

I just think that a Commander 2.0, or Orthos v3 if you will, makes a lot of sense given that the manufacturer already must have the tooling for the cases and bezels.



skipwilliams said:


> Where is the thread for the Bund project reissue?


Here

https://www.watchuseek.com/f626/few...vailable-may-2017-a-3901874.html#post37126258


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Let's all go get HK Ed. Torches on the right. Pitchforks on the left...
> 
> We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


Lol, in Ed's defense it is a legit 2.0. He changed the crystal, added a new bezel option, changed the dial very slightly, etc.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Commander v2 with diff shade of blue and white lume.?..And maybe sword hands option?... Wooo!😎

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Seeing as how much Mr. Vail loves input from the masses I can imagine he is kicking his desk and trying to melt everyone with his mind right now, lol.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Mil6161 said:


> Commander v2 with diff shade of blue and white lume.?..And maybe sword hands option?... Wooo!


We'll end making a new project at this rate, lol.



mplsabdullah said:


> Seeing as how much Mr. Vail loves input from the masses I can imagine he is kicking his desk and trying to melt everyone with his mind right now, lol.


He's too polite to tell us to f*ck off


----------



## Topspin917 (Mar 17, 2012)

Giving the AM a try on mesh.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Mil6161 said:


> Commander v2 with diff shade of blue and white lume.?..And maybe sword hands option?... Wooo!😎


...and maybe resurrect the 12-hr bezel option while you're at it.

Here's us: "BARK! BARK"

Here's Chris: "I'm the wrong tree."


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Pato_Lucas said:


> He's too polite to tell us to f*ck off


uh, not really. He tells us that all the time in his own way, and rightfully so! We bug him incessantly.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Pato_Lucas said:


> He's too polite to tell us to f*ck off


You must be new around here, lol.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> Seeing as how much Mr. Vail loves input from the masses I can imagine he is kicking his desk and trying to melt everyone with his mind right now, lol.


Funny you mention kicking my desk. The bottom drawer in my desk wouldn't shut for about five days, during which time I kicked it frequently.

And by "kicked", I mean painfully banged my shin into it.

Otherwise, none of the recent suggestions here have made me want to use the kill people with my mind power.

Candidly, the Commander 300 project was perfectly timed, as it gave me a very convenient way to finance a second production run of the Orthos at a time I was getting low on inventory.

In retrospect, it's easy for me to say I would have liked the project committee to approve my making more than 250, but the fact is I didn't ask them if I could make more, and I don't remember thinking I should make more at that time. If anything, I think I was happy to be making 250, and figured that would be the full extent of the demand we'd see. I'd rather make too few of something than too many.

It's easy for anyone to look back now and say I should have made more, or that I'd sell a bunch if I were to make some updated version, but I'm not sure that's true. I think there are maybe 50 guys on the web who want one badly enough to pester me about it, and maybe half of those guys would follow through and buy one if we did make another run, leaving me to figure out what to do with the other 275 out of the 300 we'd be forced to make. Meanwhile, I've still got about 100 of the 650 Orthos we've already made left in stock. What sense is there in making more?

I doubt I'll make more of the Orthos in any form, including the Commander 300. There are other design ideas I want to pursue.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Karkarov said:


> Lol, in Ed's defense it is a legit 2.0. He changed the crystal, added a new bezel option, changed the dial very slightly, etc.


Yep, in his posting, he didn't trumpet it as completely new watch, only a small production run with the improvements noted.

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'd rather make too few of something than too many.


Would you like to be consultant of the whole Swiss industry? I'm afraid all of them missed the MBA 101 class.



skipwilliams said:


> Yep, in his posting, he didn't trumpet it as completely new watch, only a small production run with the improvements noted.


That makes sense, AFAIK Ed and Thomas can work in small batches.


----------



## AC81 (Feb 24, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pato_Lucas said:


> Ed is making a reissue of the Bund project with a different bezel and nobody's crying murder over it, it's just a version 2.0
> 
> I'm really interested on seeing your own take on the Commander 300, but then again, I'm also very interested on the things on the future so I understand why making a Commander 2.0 isn't a big priority.


I know it's unpopular, and i've already been roundly hounded for holding this opinion. So i'll say it once and leave it there. 
But i was in on Eds 1963 project from the start. I got my watch, and am very happy with it. A nice little stamp on the back saying "1 of 150".
But that watch has long been in regular production with minimal changes and i wasn't entirely happy about it. 
I entered into what was implied as a 'forum special limited edition'.
And well, lets be honest, it's not.

I think mabee i was a little naive and it'll certainly make me think again about joining another forum project. And to some extent the re-issue of the bund watch re-enforces that.
I know people don't like hearing it, People see that Eds doing something for the forum and they back him. That makes me the 'bad guy' for not liking it. 
Oh well, i still wear and enjoy the watch though. That's something.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



AC81 said:


> I know it's unpopular, and i've already been roundly hounded for holding this opinion. So i'll say it once and leave it there.
> But i was in on Eds 1963 project from the start. I got my watch, and am very happy with it. A nice little stamp on the back saying "1 of 150".
> But that watch has long been in regular production with minimal changes and i wasn't entirely happy about it.
> I entered into what was implied as a 'forum special limited edition'.
> ...


Sounds like the Hexa Osprey project....Meaning it's not the first rodeo; Projects come back in some iteration. Not saying that doc will do this, just saying it has happened before.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



AC81 said:


> I know it's unpopular, and i've already been roundly hounded for holding this opinion. So i'll say it once and leave it there.
> But i was in on Eds 1963 project from the start. I got my watch, and am very happy with it. A nice little stamp on the back saying "1 of 150".
> But that watch has long been in regular production with minimal changes and i wasn't entirely happy about it.
> I entered into what was implied as a 'forum special limited edition'.
> ...





kpjimmy said:


> Sounds like the Hexa Osprey project....Meaning it's not the first rodeo; Projects come back in some iteration. Not saying that doc will do this, just saying it has happened before.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Ed is my friend, and I wouldn't consider him one if I didn't think he was a man of honor. I don't know all the particulars, and so I can't offer up any specific defense on his behalf.

I can only say that in my estimation, he is both smart enough and honest enough that I think he'd be able to differentiate one project from another clearly enough that no one saw what he was doing as unsavory, particularly if either was sold as a "limited edition", even if the differentiation between projects isn't clear enough to everyone, which has led to some difference in opinions.

In other words, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he hasn't gone back on his word to his customers, while allowing for the possibility that the nuances of the situation might lead others to form an opposing view.

As for the Hexa project, I didn't follow it along from its inception, and so I don't know what impression people had about it being a "limited edition" project, if that impression means they could never make more. I vaguely recall seeing some explanation they provided, essentially saying that they never committed to never make any additional models using that case, that the Osprey model differed from the project watch in some way, and that the Osprey's production helped subsidize the project's low pricing.

I take no stand on any of these projects or the companies involved. I can only state what MY position is. My position is that I was given the opportunity to make a forum project watch - an opportunity that worked out quite well for me, the project committee told me I could make no more than 250, and I gave my word that I wouldn't make any more, as the project was a "Limited Edition" - which in my mind means that's all there will ever be.

If I was the customer who bought one of 250, believing it was to be a limited edition, and even if I didn't think my resale value was hurt by the company producing some number more, I don't think I'd have a favorable view of that company turning around and making more.

When we get into these gray areas or nuances involving me, the manufacturer, making something similar enough to satisfy the remaining demand, but different enough to give me the ability to say, "well, it's not EXACTLY the same" - honestly, I'd rather avoid the mess, and just leave it all alone. I'm not going to put my reputation at risk for the sake of making another 100 or 300, or whatever. I'd rather make something different enough that no reasonable person can say I went back on my word. I wish we made 300 to start, but we didn't.


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

I'd like to throw my two cents in here. I'm new to the brand. Spotted a few posts of the NTH watches once in a while on WRUW, but it took me a while to find what Doc Vail was doing. I happened to literally luck out at the end of 2016 when a Orthos Commander 300 WUS LE came up for sale (and the seller was willing to work with me on the purchase). The only other micro brand I own is a Gruppo Gamma Divemaster 300 (I may be wrong with calling them a micro brand, so forgive me if I am). Doc is the only one that I feel I've had some kind of consistent contact with on this forum (I did dabble in the Manchester Watch Works forum during the pre-order for the 62MAS, but I didn't feel a real connection in that forum). As long as my financial situation is stable, I feel confident that I will be purchasing some more watches from Janis Trading (and if Doc does another limited edition I hope to be one of the lucky ones that gets the watch before it sells out). He's building something that I as a consumer believes in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## biggymo6 (May 13, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



sgt.brimer said:


> I'd like to throw my two cents in here. I'm new to the brand. Spotted a few posts of the NTH watches once in a while on WRUW, but it took me a while to find what Doc Vail was doing. I happened to literally luck out at the end of 2016 when a Orthos Commander 300 WUS LE came up for sale (and the seller was willing to work with me on the purchase). The only other micro brand I own is a Gruppo Gamma Divemaster 300 (I may be wrong with calling them a micro brand, so forgive me if I am). Doc is the only one that I feel I've had some kind of consistent contact with on this forum (I did dabble in the Manchester Watch Works forum during the pre-order for the 62MAS, but I didn't feel a real connection in that forum). As long as my financial situation is stable, I feel confident that I will be purchasing some more watches from Janis Trading (and if Doc does another limited edition I hope to be one of the lucky ones that gets the watch before it sells out). He's building something that I as a consumer believes in.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Here, here!

I love what Doc is doing at NTH and plan on owning one (or more!) as soon as I can. Keep up the awesomeness, Doc!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sgt.brimer said:


> I'd like to throw my two cents in here. I'm new to the brand. Spotted a few posts of the NTH watches once in a while on WRUW, but it took me a while to find what Doc Vail was doing. I happened to literally luck out at the end of 2016 when a Orthos Commander 300 WUS LE came up for sale (and the seller was willing to work with me on the purchase). The only other micro brand I own is a Gruppo Gamma Divemaster 300 (I may be wrong with calling them a micro brand, so forgive me if I am). Doc is the only one that I feel I've had some kind of consistent contact with on this forum (I did dabble in the Manchester Watch Works forum during the pre-order for the 62MAS, but I didn't feel a real connection in that forum). As long as my financial situation is stable, I feel confident that I will be purchasing some more watches from Janis Trading (and if Doc does another limited edition I hope to be one of the lucky ones that gets the watch before it sells out). He's building something that I as a consumer believes in.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gruppo Gamma is definitely a micro-brand. I've traded messages with the brand owner, Naoki Tsukumo on Facebook, and from what I can tell, he's an awesome dude. I've almost choked a few times while laughing at something he's said.

Doug from Manchester is also a great guy, though not as outgoing, from what I've seen, but no less passionate, and entirely earnest.

In my observation, many startup micros (and even some established micros) will be fairly deferential when engaging with people on a forum, and go out of their way to avoid offending anyone. It makes perfect sense - you're starting a business, don't piss anyone off. But that often leads to fairly predictable, and often boring discussions...

"Here's the new watch...oh, yes, that's a good idea, I'll look into making that change..."

Yeah, no. That's not what we're doing here.

If you haven't noticed (and eventually, you will), I don't do deferential very well. It's not that I'm disrespectful, it's just that I think it's okay as a business owner to have strong opinions, a clear vision, and to vocally advocate for it, even if that pisses some people off (which apparently, it does).

Rightly or wrongly, my view of things is that I'd rather have a thousand people who are absolutely, insanely, spasmodically enthusiastic about what I'm doing then 10,000 people who like it well enough, kind of, sort of, maybe, when they get around to it, someday.

Life's too short for me to spend my energy figuring out what's going to get 10,000 people on the fence to fall one way or the other, and if I'm being honest, I'm just not wired correctly to play nice in the sandbox, if that's what it takes to get enough of those people to fall my way. I want 1,000 people kicking the fence down, and telling everyone in the sandbox I sold them the $h1t that killed Elvis.

No offense to the people who don't get what I'm doing. I hope they all find what they're looking for, but this ain't that kind of party, and I ain't that kind of DJ. If you come in, be prepared for loud music, bawdy jokes, exposed skin, raw nerves, and the occasional minor injury, because that's the kind of party I throw.

Sound like your kind of party? C'mon in. Chips and salsa on the table, brews in the cooler, don't bump the DJ's table, and don't hit on Sluggo's girl. She's the one in the Daisy Dukes out on the dance floor, dry-humping her girlfriend and eye-f**king every guy in the room. Other than that, enjoy yourself.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Introduce me to Sluggo's girl, will you? I'll take it from there.


----------



## scott59 (Sep 5, 2013)

Pato_Lucas said:


> He's too polite to tell us to f*ck off


What's with all the irony?


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> No offense to the people who don't get what I'm doing. I hope they all find what they're looking for, but this ain't that kind of party, and I ain't that kind of DJ. If you come in, be prepared for loud music, bawdy jokes, *exposed skin*, raw nerves, and the occasional minor injury, because that's the kind of party I throw.


As long as it isn't YOUR skin then I'm game


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> I want 1,000 people kicking the fence down, and telling everyone in the sandbox I sold them the $h1t that killed Elvis.


----------



## davidozo (Sep 4, 2015)

The Doc ideas I really like, he knows what he does and does it seriously.
It would be nice to know from you, Doc, how your NTH Sub are produced and if you follow the production line, because you can see from the pictures that your Sub are very beautiful and quality.
As your production chain? Still if you can say so and if you feel like it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


----------



## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

scott59 said:


> What's with all the irony?


Irony is an important part of your daily diet.
Get your daily allowance with Kellogg's Corn Flakes.

But be sure to check and see to make sure Doc hasn't stealthily switched it to 
some freeze-dried poo that might taste even better than irony. ;-)


----------



## Leekster (Aug 7, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Where else can you get sh1t lume?

I like to make design suggestions to Doc at least once a week.

This week's:
Ceramic bezel insert. Am I right?

Please excuse spelling errors...I'm not very smart.


----------



## davidozo (Sep 4, 2015)

It 'nice to know how much passion we put a person, a micro company to make its .products, there is no need to look elsewhere.
Just a few simple consideration.
It can not grow the value of what you see and read here.
But I see that someone has been given all the intelligence.

I told me here in this room it was so, but I trust Doc.I believe does not need watchdogs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davidozo said:


> The Doc ideas I really like, he knows what he does and does it seriously.
> It would be nice to know from you, Doc, how your NTH Sub are produced and if you follow the production line, because you can see from the pictures that your Sub are very beautiful and quality.
> As your production chain? Still if you can say so and if you feel like it.


Sorry, Davide, but there's really not much to see here. My office is just a desk and a computer. The parts are all made on the other side of the planet.

My "factory" is actually more like a project management operation. All the components are made by specialized sub-vendors, contracted by my "factory" to produce the components to our design and specs. I visited a handful of the sub-vendors' shops two years ago, and it's not as romantic as some seem to think.

There's a bit of marketing hocus-pocus being perpetrated by many in the industry. You see the pictures of the smiling "watchmaker" with the jeweler's loupe up on his forehead, stock photos of cases being turned on a lathe, trays of half-assembled watches, people in white coats and booties over their shoes - all meant to give the impression of watchmaking magic happening - the micro brand owner as an artisan, and you with a warm fuzzy feeling of love inside every piece.

I've never gone in for all that. You'll never see a picture of me with a loupe growing out of my forehead, looking like a mutated minotaur, or anything from me suggesting an operation more complicated or sophisticated than it is.

I'm a guy running a business out of an office in my house. I'm in frequent contact with my guy at the factory throughout the design to delivery process. My factory is one of the best in the business. We don't need to show pics of magical gnomes as a way of enhancing perception. The product and our service ought to speak for themselves.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> .


Best. Comment. Ever.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## davidozo (Sep 4, 2015)

Thanks Doc, that's what I wanted to hear answered.
You are an honest person.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Doc, At the end of the day we want a good quality product at a fair price. You have consistently delivered this. We don't need the smoke and mirrors or other marketing BS. I cringe when I see those ads. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Best. Comment. Ever.
> 
> We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


That's a period.


----------



## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

I still want to hear more about this party. Especially Sluggo's girlfriends, friend, the one she's dry humping in the daisy dukes. It'd be alright if I go and make a fool of myself in front of her, wouldn't it? Is she wearing daisy dukes as well?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> That's a period.


Youre cute when youre jealous

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

hwa said:


> Youre cute when youre jealous
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hell..... I'll take that. Beggars can't be choosers and all that.


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

Just waiting for an invite to the NTH head office site visit/tour.










Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

jonathanp77 said:


> Just waiting for an invite to the NTH head office site visit/tour.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure. Take muffins.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Ric Capucho said:


> Sure. Take muffins.


No, take a cheesesteak for Doc. Even better.


----------



## Jguitron (Aug 28, 2013)

Enjoying this one like on day one!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

That strap really works on that model - great combo!



Jguitron said:


> Enjoying this one like on day one!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Jguitron said:


> Enjoying this one like on day one!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Love the digital desert camo on that watch. Fantastic combination !!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

WE NEED MOAR BARRACUDA PICTURES DAMMIT.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Ice Blue... 









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tom Kelly (Apr 6, 2015)

Mil6161 said:


> Ice Blue...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really like this...but I'm going to wait for a Barracuda!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Going with this bad boy today 









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Still my favourite watch.........










Although that Ice Blue with the arrow hands is a beauty.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

damn, i typed in a longer answer all in hail and praise of DocVail and how i like his ...ehrm... closeness (is that a correct english term?) to his customers, and then it suddenly disappeared.

here is the interview i came across and wanted to share... https://www.wristwatchreview.com/2016/10/05/interview-with-a-watch-maker-chris-vail/


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

hawkeye86 said:


> Doc, At the end of the day we want a good quality product at a fair price. You have consistently delivered this. We don't need the smoke and mirrors or other marketing BS. I cringe when I see those ads.


I have a lot of respect for Doc for not giving us the marketing BS you see on every kickstarter.



GlenRoiland said:


> That's a period.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Näcken Vintage Blue up close.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

The restroom wristi:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> The restroom wristi:


Is that a cork strap you have that on? Always thought of trying one...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> Is that a cork strap you have that on? Always thought of trying one...


Do it. They're awesome.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> Do it. They're awesome.


I might be ordering several straps today. My 9 year old son needs a new strap for his Mickey Mouse watch... gives me a good excuse to buy one or two for me too!


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

kendalw3 said:


> I might be ordering several straps today. My 9 year old son needs a new strap for his Mickey Mouse watch... gives me a good excuse to buy one or two for me too!


Kendal; check out the straps available on the Strap Exchange thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/affordables-forum-strap-exchange-part-2-a-1253698-36.html

I also have a pretty good stash of 12-16mm straps in the bottom of my tackle box, and I'm sure my wife won't notice if there's a Nato missing from the box next to her jewelry. I'm also HOME (AZ) for the next three months; No travel!

Ehem. Back to L&H/Nth content - Some of the straps up there would look great on your Janis product!


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ... the project committee told me I could make no more than 250, and I gave my word that I wouldn't make any more, as the project was a "Limited Edition" - which in my mind means that's all there will ever be.


So, everyone wanting more 300's, gripe to the project committee and not Doc. Oh, that's "us"... more accurately, some of us who were on the project (not me, as I missed it but did later find a 300 for sale).


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



fearlessleader said:


> So, everyone wanting more 300's, gripe to the project committee and not Doc. Oh, that's "us"... more accurately, some of us who were on the project (not me, as I missed it but did later find a 300 for sale).


Truth be told, it took a little while to fill the 250 spots for the project, making it up to 300 would have delayed things quite a bit.


----------



## Relo60 (Jun 14, 2015)

Nacken Vintage Blue on a Threaded Leather Horween strap. One of my best watch/strap combos. At times, I forget it's on my wrist which is a good thing.

On my wrist today.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

The two Janis brothers waiting for the third one to come from the Tropics:


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Relo60 said:


> Nacken Vintage Blue on a Threaded Leather Horween strap. One of my best watch/strap combos. At times, I forget it's on my wrist which is a good thing.
> 
> On my wrist today.
> 
> ...


That's a great combo. Yowza! Care to share source of strap?


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Iliyan said:


> The two Janis brothers waiting for the third one to come from the Tropics:


Those are my 2 favorite watches as well!

instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)

Phantom day


----------



## Relo60 (Jun 14, 2015)

hwa said:


> That's a great combo. Yowza! Care to share source of strap?


PM sent.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Relo60 said:


> PM sent.


Can you please send me the source too? I plan to get the Nacken modern in blue and definitely this strap will do nicely.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

tinitini said:


> Phantom day


That's looking great! Where did you get that strap? Never crossed my mind to use a red strap with an all black watch, but this is making me consider to acquire a pvd watch (curse this forum).

Sent by 2 thumbs.


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)

Wimads said:


> That's looking great! Where did you get that strap? Never crossed my mind to use a red strap with an all black watch, but this is making me consider to acquire a pvd watch (curse this forum).
> 
> Sent by 2 thumbs.


Thank you !

I don't remember exactly which seller exactly, it's been about one year now. But it was one of the numerous sellers from Vietnam doing hand made leather strap. Try to search "Vietnam ostrich watch strap" on eBay.

It may have been vnhandcraftart, as I did order a few times from him. But I am not 100% sure.


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)

Another shot where the strap is more visible


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

tinitini said:


> Another shot where the strap is more visible


Cool thanks, looks less red in this pic 

Sent by 2 thumbs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tinitini said:


> Phantom day


That caseback still blows my mind. Francis is a genius.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

Cerb...









Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Riccardo...


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

kendalw3 said:


> I might be ordering several straps today. My 9 year old son needs a new strap for his Mickey Mouse watch... gives me a good excuse to buy one or two for me too!


Turns out that ordering a new strap for my son was the perfect excuse to order a few straps for me too!

Son gets a nice black leather Hadley Roma...

I get a new strap for my Riccardo
Orange Nato that may find its way onto my Orthos
Shark mesh may get a turn on the Orthos

AND!!!!

Springbar removal tool!!! (I've needed one of these for a while now!!!)

Of course, I will post pictures of any Janis Trading watches that get to wear new shoes once that happens!


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Son's new strap on his Mickey watch and my new orange nato on my Orthos.

















New strap for my Riccardo should be here tomorrow... which is odd. I guess Amazon delivers on Sunday??? Kinda nice, but it would be ok with me if folks got Sundays off still...


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Relo60 said:


> PM sent.


Don't know why you want to PM the info, but I'd like to know too, please. Thanks


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pato_Lucas said:


> Truth be told, it took a little while to fill the 250 spots for the project, making it up to 300 would have delayed things quite a bit.


There's a big difference between filling 300 vs filling 250 and allowing up to 300 to be made *if* Doc wanted to make more than 250. Just sayin'.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

My Riccardo got some new shoes!!!


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Did I just see NTH's on Massdrop???? Maybe Massdrops strategy is to steal products...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ILiveOnWacker said:


> Did I just see NTH's on Massdrop???? Maybe Massdrops strategy is to steal products...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes you did, and no it isn't.

The coincidental timing of my announcement and their sale is unfortunate.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I though NTH wouldn't go on sale ? 
I though NTH was different from the million other micro-brands


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



40mm said:


> I though NTH wouldn't go on sale ?
> I though NTH was different from the million other micro-brands


Odd first post. What was your WUS name before?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



40mm said:


> I though NTH wouldn't go on sale ?
> I though NTH was different from the million other micro-brands


Pretty sure I never said that, but welcome to the forum.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Thanks! It was indeed my first post, sorry if it sounded harsh and I'll keep buying NTH anyway, I simply was surprised to see a sale.


----------



## iceman66 (Feb 24, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Yes you did, and no it isn't.
> 
> The coincidental timing of my announcement and their sale is unfortunate.
> 
> We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


You sure you want to deal with the numpty customers on massdrop?? :-d


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Doc? Anything you can tell us about sticky bezels and plastic? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

hwa said:


> Doc? Anything you can tell us about sticky bezels and plastic?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I seem to remember something to do with Glycine!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

iceman66 said:


> You sure you want to deal with the numpty customers on massdrop?? :-d
> 
> View attachment 10545850





hwa said:


> Doc? Anything you can tell us about sticky bezels and plastic?


Dem crystal protectors will get you every time.

I'm telling ya, they need to make them in tinted colors.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Definitely a Benny Hill or 1970s SNL skit in the making.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

mplsabdullah said:


> Definitely a Benny Hill or 1970s SNL skit in the making.


I hope the watch matches your Pinky Ring, Mr. Peschi.

Someone got the Ytube for that?


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> Dem crystal protectors will get you every time.
> 
> I'm telling ya, they need to make them in tinted colors.


Except then you get: "Hey Mr. [brand], I ordered a white dial, but I received a blue one! Please refund .....!"
Day later: "Wait I'm a fool, forgot there was protective film on the crystal."

Sent by 2 thumbs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wimads said:


> Except then you get: "Hey Mr. [brand], I ordered a white dial, but I received a blue one! Please refund .....!"
> Day later: "Wait I'm a fool, forgot there was protective film on the crystal."
> 
> Sent by 2 thumbs.


Probably true. It literally never ends. I guess I was thinking they'd tint them pink or something, a color that would be least likely to be missed.

I had a couple of people return NTH Subs because they didn't like the colors of the lume, either on the dial or the bezel, or the mis-match between them. I don't remember if I asked the first customer, but I asked the second customer if he scrolled through the pics on the product page of the website.

When I look at the professional shots, those white-background "soldier images", the colors look about the same as they do in real life, at least to me, but since those images are heavily re-touched, it's not uncommon for them to look a little "off" in general, sort of plasticky, which is why I like to include some more real-world shots as well.

When I look at both the soldier images and the real world shots, I'm very sure we've done everything we can to give people the correct expectations regarding the product's appearance.

The guy's explanation was basically that he fell in love with the watch after seeing pics of it on Instagram, where of course lighting conditions vary, and people may be adding various image filters, which affect the appearance, obviously. He said the bezel lume looked whiter on IG, which I admit, it often does.

I'm not upset at all about the return, the guy wasn't a jerk or anything like that, and I want people to be happy with what they get. It's just another "one of those things" I've found, which show me that no matter how much I do to "perfect" the presentation and the process, there are always going to be scenarios in which people - innocently enough - overlook something, and that thing becomes a sticking point.

The bezel-locking crystal-protector is just the perfect metaphor for all of it - a stupid little thing, put in place for a good reason, but because of its combined invisibility and perfect cut/placement, serves to trip up many otherwise intelligent and attentive people.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



40mm said:


> I though NTH wouldn't go on sale ?


Just remember that the Massdrop price is quite a bit more than the pre-order price that most of us paid.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Newest arrival has joined the family.



















Very happy with the new Cerberus! Still not sure why it took me soo long to take the plunge.










It is just about the perfect size for me.










Thanks Chris for another great watch. Here's hoping for many more to come.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

Very nice sir


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Looks great, Sam!

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

April 30 yet? I am actually a bit more excited for this next run of deliveries then I was for the subs (great as they are). Really can not wait to get my hands on my Antilles(s') and the Azores. Plan to go in dark closets often just to check out the all lume dial Antilles. Likely show it off to my kids (all under 5) although they already lost interest in watches along time ago, lol. However whenever I'm trying to adjust bracelets they magically appear and start rearranging (loosing) things for me.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

The Nacken has become one of my two favorite watches together with my Damasko. I love that thing.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Iliyan said:


> The Nacken has become one of my two favorite watches together with my Damasko. I love that thing.


You're a Nacken-lovin' Damaxican!


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> You're a Nacken-lovin' Damaxican!


Haha, I was just wondering what I am. Existential crisis avoided!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Iliyan said:


> Haha, I was just wondering what I am. Existential crisis avoided!


Wow. Lucky you! Im totally at sea. Listening to Wilco sing Red-Eyed and Blue.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

When are the new Nacken colors coming out by the way?


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> You're a Nacken-lovin' Damaxican!


Will that get him deported under the new Trump administration?

Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

40mm said:


> When are the new Nacken colors coming out by the way?


https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=37782762

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

Thanks Doc! I'm tempted to get both the vintage blue, and the newer modern blue  this way I can change depending on the ... color of the sky ? or simply my mood


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just FYI to all - we're down to low-single digit inventory on most versions of the NTH Subs. 

I'll probably make more of the Santa Cruz and the Nacken Vintage Black in this next production run, and include them in the pre-order alongside the new versions, but I don't foresee making more of the other original versions until the production run after that (if I decide to make more of any of them, which I may not), and I don't have a timeline set for that production run yet. 

So...if you're considering buying one of the existing models new, I wouldn't recommend waiting too much longer. 

Actually, while I'm thinking of it - we're down to single-digit inventory on the Acionna and Cerberus, too, both of which are being discontinued once they're sold out, so the same goes for them.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Alright Doc you sumbitch, I caved and ordered a grey and red Cerberus. It best be as sexy as the girl eyeing everyone at your pool party.


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Fingers crossed that a vintage blue Nacken will still be available on the 3rd of February.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I want an Amphion Modern with a Nacken bezel ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> Alright Doc you sumbitch, I caved and ordered a grey and red Cerberus. It best be as sexy as the girl eyeing everyone at your pool party.


EDIT - Yes. Yes you did.



sgt.brimer said:


> Fingers crossed that a vintage blue Nacken will still be available on the 3rd of February.


Four pieces left. We'll probably still have at least one.



Avo said:


> I want an Amphion Modern with a Nacken bezel ...


I want to be taller.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> I want to be taller.


Yeah, doc, sure, but with the Orthos you eventually started offering custom versions.

So I'm biding my time (and my money ...)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Yeah, doc, sure, but with the Orthos you eventually started offering custom versions.
> 
> So I'm biding my time (and my money ...)


I also stopped with the Orthos.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## MisterV (Nov 30, 2016)

So, do I understand it correctly that the new Tropics aren't limited? I'm really digging the Mint Azores, but will have to wait a couple months...


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MisterV said:


> So, do I understand it correctly that the new Tropics aren't limited? I'm really digging the Mint Azores, but will have to wait a couple months...


As far as I know, every model made by Chris is limited. I don't remember if he mentioned the production numbers for the Tropics, but I am pretty sure they are also limited. They are scheduled to come out in April so you have plenty of time to get on board.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MisterV said:


> So, do I understand it correctly that the new Tropics aren't limited? I'm really digging the Mint Azores, but will have to wait a couple months...


Depends on what you mean by "limited".

I've talked about this before.

I'm not Seiko. I don't own the factory or the machines. So there's no scenario in which we turn the machines on to start making a new model, and keep making them until we decide to stop. While not literally "unlimited", that's unlimited production from a practical standpoint - there's no telling when they'll stop making them.

I have to order a certain number of each new model. Generally, I order 300-500 pieces of a new model. That's what I consider "limited _production_" - there's a very finite number we're making - in THAT production run.

That's not the same as "limited _edition_", which different people interpret different ways. In my view an LE is a "special" version of a model, made to order, as in for a project, or to commemorate some event, etc. But I think the essential element is that there will be some small, limited number made, and that's that.

I've yet to produce a second run of any design in exactly the same way it was first produced, and we make everything in relatively small numbers, so you could argue everything I make is "limited edition", but I don't like to call everything we make an LE, because I don't want to be honor-bound to not make more if something sells out and I think there's more demand.

For example, we plan to make more of the Santa Cruz and Nacken Vintage Black in the next run of Subs, because they were the first two Subs versions to sell out, I've gotten requests for more, and they don't directly compete with any of the new models. That will be the first time we've made more of anything in exactly the same way.

We're making 300 pieces of the Tropics. Since we've already started, the production numbers for each version are locked in. We're making more of some versions, less than others (as few as 5 pieces). When they're sold out, they'll be sold out unless and until we make more, which we may or may not ever do.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Ricardo LE 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> Ricardo LE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's funny.

My son was wearing his modded Seiko SKX on a cork NATO, but I guess he's outgrown it.

I was surfing the Cincy Strap Works site for a strap for my kid, and thinking I wanted to check out his new "seatbelt" straps, when I saw he's got a black/orange striped seatbelt NATO.

"Ooohhh, that would look awesome on my Black/Orange Riccardo!"

And then I remembered...

"Wait...I sold my Riccardos..."


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

My first NTH (or anything Janis) is inbound! I'm really curious to check it out when it shows up. I went with one I think people either love or hate. I'm pretty sure I love it, but I guess I'll know soon. Any guesses? (As to which NTH watch might be most love/hate for people?).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jdcooper said:


> My first NTH (or anything Janis) is inbound! I'm really curious to check it out when it shows up. I went with one I think people either love or hate. I'm pretty sure I love it, but I guess I'll know soon. Any guesses? (As to which NTH watch might be most love/hate for people?).


I was going to guess the ___________, but then I thought, "Dude, just go look at your orders."

Yep, I was right.

EDIT/PS - It's underrated, IMHO.


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

Ha ha. I figured that you could just look it up, of course, given the oh so secret nature of my handle here. Pretty cool that it's the one you thought of as most love/hate. I'm curious, is that because of customer feedback, sales, your personal opinion, or some combination?

I'm glad you think it's underrated. I'm looking forward to it.


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

Scorpene?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Still love this watch.

I wear it a little too often, but only because it looks great on anything!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

jdcooper said:


> My first NTH (or anything Janis) is inbound! I'm really curious to check it out when it shows up. I went with one I think people either love or hate. I'm pretty sure I love it, but I guess I'll know soon. Any guesses? (As to which NTH watch might be most love/hate for people?).


Vintage blue Näcken?🤔

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jdcooper said:


> Ha ha. I figured that you could just look it up, of course, given the oh so secret nature of my handle here. Pretty cool that it's the one you thought of as most love/hate. I'm curious, is that because of customer feedback, sales, your personal opinion, or some combination?
> 
> I'm glad you think it's underrated. I'm looking forward to it.


Uhm...

A few times, at least three, just off the top of my head, we've introduced a new model with 2D drawings, or even 3D renders, and people go crazy for one version, but then, when we get prototypes in, and people see the "real life" pics, sentiment swings, and people go crazy for a different version.

Once or twice, something will get off to a slow start, then catch on and take off after we make delivery, and people start posting wrist-shots. Sometimes that can happen if we get it into the hands of someone who can "move the needle" by way of a big social media following.

Sometimes, something is just under-appreciated. Some people get it right away, but most people need to see it in person before they get it. Some watches just fly under the radar that way, for whatever reason. It doesn't matter how many pics you see, or how many nice things you hear about it, none of it clicks until you see one in person.

In the case of the one you've bought, it's a mix of people liking it in the renders, but not as much when they saw the "real life" pics, but also people liking it A LOT more once they see it in person.


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

Everyone's a winner! Wow...the first three responses were exactly the correct watch. Very interesting.


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

I really appreciate that thorough reply. It must be interesting to see, from your end, the way perception changes. Now I'm really curious to see where I'll end up!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jdcooper said:


> I really appreciate that thorough reply. It must be interesting to see, from your end, the way perception changes. Now I'm really curious to see where I'll end up!


Interesting. Frustrating.

Mostly frustrating.

I've seen a lot of watches that look great in online pics, but in real life, they're mostly "meh". Likewise, a lot of watches don't seem all that special online, but then you see them in real life, and you understand the hype.

Sometimes the reasons are more apparent. Like the Citizen Nighthawk. It's not mechanical. The dial is too busy. No one has a clue how to use the slide rule. But when you see one in the metal, you see it works. I feel the exact opposite way about the Seiko Alpinist. Looks awesome in online pics. In person, it's too small, too cluttered, too fussy, etc.

The Scorpene is sort of like the Nighthawk. People think it's too busy, I guess. But they're looking at it magnified, and usually in a pic that's cropped so all you see is the watch. On the wrist, it's a different story.

The Scorpene crushed the others when we did the pre-order interest survey - but that was before we got protos. Once we got protos, people went nuts for the Nacken Modern, Nacken Vintage Blue, and to a lesser extent, the Santa Cruz, and I scaled back on the Scorpene production numbers.

No one liked the Nacken Vintage Black in the renders, or in the pics I posted of the prototype. It almost didn't get made, and it was the version produced in the smallest numbers. I lent the proto to lactardjosh, who takes killer pics, and has a pretty large IG following - BOOM - first to sell out.

Then we made delivery, people started posting wrist shots of the Santa Cruz, with that waffle dial and the chameleon bezel - BOOM - next to sell out.

If we'd sold more Scorpene's in pre-order, I guarantee the added volume of wrist shots would have made it sell out by now, and I'd be sitting here thinking I didn't make enough, the same way I think about the Nacken Vintage Black and Santa Cruz.

I'm *this* close to giving up on trying to match production numbers to apparent demand. I may just go back to making the same number of each version of a new model, and if some sell out faster than others, so be it.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> A few times, at least three, just off the top of my head, we've introduced a new model with 2D drawings, or even 3D renders, and people go crazy for one version, but then, when we get prototypes in, and people see the "real life" pics, sentiment swings, and people go crazy for a different version.
> 
> Once or twice, something will get off to a slow start, then catch on and take off after we make delivery, and people start posting wrist-shots. Sometimes that can happen if we get it into the hands of someone who can "move the needle" by way of a big social media following.
> 
> ...


Definitely the Scorpène.

I feel that your watches have that quality, they just grow on me when I see real life pictures of people actually using them.

I was neutral at best with the Phantom until I saw pictures of people wearing it and then I just had to buy it. Same with the blue & orange Cerberus and Orthos, but now I have a personal policy of not buying anything with 50 mm height.

And don't get me started with the subs, I regret I didn't get them on the pre order.

Lesson learned, don't doubt Doc's watches otherwise you'll be paying full price sooner or later.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

I follow Lactardjosh on instagram, it's my favourite watch account bar none.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Just out of professional curiosity Doc how many responses were you getting in your focus tests? Also did you get a greater number of responses to the actual prototypes than you did from the "concept art", for lack of a better term?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> Just out of professional curiosity Doc how many responses were you getting in your focus tests? Also did you get a greater number of responses to the actual prototypes than you did from the "concept art", for lack of a better term?


I think we peaked at over 550 responses to the pre-order survey, in which people seemed to indicate enough interest to sell over 1,000 watches in pre-order.

We didn't sell nearly that many in pre-order, not that I really expected to. It was obvious we had people responding who weren't going to order, for whatever reason, and that people who responded were often just indicating all the versions they liked, instead of just those versions they actually planned to buy.

Let's say, hypothetically, that the Scorpène ranked high overall, because it was a lot of people's second, or even third choice. If most of those people only bought one or two watches in pre-order (the average pre-order was 1.36 watches bought, meaning we were selling more than four watches for every three people who pre-ordered), that explains why the actual pre orders varied so much from the survey.

Now apply that concept to all 8 versions of the Subs, and you can understand my frustration trying to figure out production numbers.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

As long as you keep a Barracuda stashed away for me, I'm happy. I'm even gonna pay those damn import taxes.


----------



## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

I've been smitten with the Nacken Vintage Black since seeing the first proto photo. Didn't have the money at the time, really thinking about selling some spare wheel sets to raise funds. Glad to see it making a second run.

Love the window on your business. I don't think many people understand the varied headaches that come along with being a one man shop.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Let's say, hypothetically, that the Scorpène ranked high overall, because it was a lot of people's second, or even third choice. If most of those people only bought one or two watches in pre-order (the average pre-order was 1.36 watches bought, meaning we were selling more than four watches for every three people who pre-ordered), that explains why the actual pre orders varied so much from the survey.
> 
> Now apply that concept to all 8 versions of the Subs, and you can understand my frustration trying to figure out production numbers.


I feel you, well not literally, that wouldn't be appropriate.

By trade I am a dirty data analyst for the evil Corporate Overlords of America. So doing this kind of stuff is part of the job. 550 responses is actually really great considering the volume of watches you were ordering. I don't think you should give up doing this kind of survey, just maybe change up the questions a little. I am a big fan of forced questions, I really don't like multiple choice because there is always a decent percentage of people who when they take surveys will choose everything if it is possible. In theory if they could have everything why wouldn't they get everything right? If you force them to only pick one option though you tend to get a better idea of what is really the popular choice.

You could always follow up with a "if you bought a second watch which would it be" as well, just to be on the safe side. In that event I would include a "I wouldn't buy a second watch" option.


----------



## KJRye (Jul 28, 2014)

Newly received Phantom, meaning my 3rd Janis/L&H piece alongside the Commander 300 and NTH.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaaaaannnnndddd....Nacken Modern is sold out.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Newly arranged arrivals, so couldn't resist a few pics of what I'm calling SOTDC (State of the Doc Collection) - apologies in advance ofr my lack of photographic talent, but I couldn't resist sharing

Nacken Vintage Black - gutted when these went out of stock, but tracked down someone who amazingly couldn't get on with it. Cue a short conversation which ended with it winging its way to me









Joining the rest of the gang - mixed bag of new & 2nd hand purchases (I may be developing a slight addiction...) - I've space left for my pre-order Azores, and I'll then need to free up a bit more I think when the Barracuda comes knocking..









and I've discovered 2 in particular are a fab match for appropriate contents in my fridge - I love the colour play of the Orthos in particular, and how it shifts with the angles & light - its a real beauty in the metal (as are all of them actually) that my efforts here really can't do justice to.

















The increasing problem is, where the heck am I going to find any wrist time for anything else?


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Well if I miss the Nacken Vintage Blue this time around, at least I'll have hopes of getting the Vintage Black 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> I feel you, well not literally, that wouldn't be appropriate.
> 
> By trade I am a dirty data analyst for the evil Corporate Overlords of America. So doing this kind of stuff is part of the job. 550 responses is actually really great considering the volume of watches you were ordering. I don't think you should give up doing this kind of survey, just maybe change up the questions a little. I am a big fan of forced questions, I really don't like multiple choice because there is always a decent percentage of people who when they take surveys will choose everything if it is possible. In theory if they could have everything why wouldn't they get everything right? If you force them to only pick one option though you tend to get a better idea of what is really the popular choice.
> 
> You could always follow up with a "if you bought a second watch which would it be" as well, just to be on the safe side. In that event I would include a "I wouldn't buy a second watch" option.


I'm sure I'm making it all out to be more dramatic than it really is.

The pre-order survey was prompted by a combination of things - the madness which occurred with the Phantom's pre-order, the immense interest we saw in the Subs, and my desire to find the perfect pre-order structure which would somehow accomplish multiple, yet contradictory goals, including maximizing interest, maximizing profit, maximizing the customer's experience, and optimizing the production plan.

Yeah, it was a high hurdle.

The biggest challenge is - if I'm making multiple versions of a new model, like the 8 Subs, but I want to limit the lowest pre-order price tier to the first 50 pieces, regardless of which versions are ordered, how do I do that?

50 doesn't divide by 8 evenly, but even if I wanted to make it 48, with 6 of each version available at the lowest price, how do I avoid a situation where we blow through 18 or 24 of one version, while we've only sold 3 of another, and now there's this big price gap, and sales slow down?

With the Phantom, I just set everything up as a single product, with 12 different versions available by choosing your preferred options. The number available was a combined total, so it didn't matter which version people ordered. When we blew through the first 50, I raised the price.

But that meant hundreds of people all flooding the same product page, lots of "broken" orders, and it was a nightmare for me later on, when I went to break that one product up into 3 distinct products, which is a better way to present them after the initial rush of pre-orders.

With the Subs, I wanted to avoid the technical/website issues we had with the Phantom, and also make my life easier later. So I made each version its own product, with date/no-date being the only selectable option, but the pre-order interest survey was supposed to tell me how many of each version to make available.

The survey was off, by a lot, so I ended up modifying the available inventory numbers for each version, on the fly, in real-time, and processing dozens of partial refunds and order changes, all while trying to manage some sort of real-time, reactive, demand-based pricing, which was insane. I'm sure my changing availability and pricing in real-time skewed the results in some way.

I'm still trying to dial in the perfect pre-order structure, but I've been able to shuffle some things around behind the scenes, such that making the "right" number of each version of a new model available at each pre-order price tier isn't as big a challenge as it was, so I don't really need to use a tool like that survey in the future, I don't think.

We didn't have any complaints about the Tropics' pre-order, so that's a step in the right direction, but we also didn't have nearly the same level of hype surrounding the Tropics as compared to the Subs.

We'll see how the Subs 2.0 pre-orders go.

And, speaking of which, I need to go snap some pics, now that the sun is out...


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> Uhm...
> 
> A few times, at least three, just off the top of my head, we've introduced a new model with 2D drawings, or even 3D renders, and people go crazy for one version, but then, when we get prototypes in, ....when they saw the "real life" pics, but also people liking it A LOT more once they see it in person.


Quoting this part of your post, because something like this bothered me the whole time. Might get a longer answer, so pardon my English, only used to short, ironic/sarcastic/praising answering - so I might get a little misunderstood, if so, please ask, so I can try to elaborate.

When the subs came out/were available for preorder, I was SO close to buying the näcken vintage black. I am not US based, so I would have had to pay customs extra. I read some reviews of the lew and Huey's online - and as it is always: ordering something, you'll have trouble with, sending back, when you're not satisfied (trouble for you, trouble for the seller) - I was not sure to pull the trigger. I don't even recall the preorder price. But then eventually the vintage black was sold out, I went "oh great, I don't have to think about buying it, due to lack of opportunity" - then i came across the vintage blue (the FIRST pic on your site, this is noteworthy) and thought: alright, this is a special blue, just like the Tudor pelagos...too blue, I could not wear it. So I ditched the idea and went on.

Then I came across such a nice pic of a NTH Näcken, black dial, aluminum blue bezel: whoa!! Where do I get that?! Checked your site...no this can't be the vintage blue. It is completely different...

Okay, to get to an end here: this one picture in your site: it makes me crazy, this is not the watch i wear now, if you would have put another one online, I would have bought right from the start (i think so at least)

Now I have the VB, payed full price (which I happily did, it is still underpriced, but don't Tell anyone) AND payed an extra in customs. And this is what bothers me: the watch got pricier for me, but you did not get the...how do you call it? ...the additional...ah, you'll understand my meaning.

Conclusion? I don't know, draw them by yourself. One might be: okay, customer, it is your money, your obligation to check the OTHER pictures in my site, they are THERE! Yeah I get that.

But: I've never seen another picture of the VB, where the two blues (dial and bezel) look like that one on your site... 

What adds to the experimental character of ordering from you is that I don't know anyone, who has a nth. So not having the opportunity to check them out live is a bit of a hurdle too. But then again: I bought everyone of my micros online (but from European sellers) - and so far they all exceeded my expectations by far.

Nevertheless, great piece and I am happy to have one.

Sorry for the long read.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I think the safest choice for everyone is to pre-order at least two, then sell whichever one they don't want.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Yeah, I'll keep the shuttlecock


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Aaaaaaannnnndddd....Nacken Modern is sold out.


Congratulations!



docvail said:


> I'm sure I'm making it all out to be more dramatic than it really is.


That's an impossibility! never seen that happen before!!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Fair warning, I am not a photographer.

Also, the way my house faces, there's only two decent locations for natural light shots, and each of those is only good for a couple of hours each day.

It was REALLY hard to get the colors to look right on the Amphion Vintage Blue. I'm still not sure they look right in these pics, where the dial looks darker than the bezel and the dial texture is really exaggerated, but here goes...

Amphion Dark Gilt:

















Amphion Vintage Blue:

















Näcken Modern Blue:


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Damn I think I'll need to order the Amphion Vintage Blue and the Nacken Modern Blue!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Näcken Modern Blue:
> 
> View attachment 10641650
> 
> ...












So glad I didn't get the black version (let's be honest, black drivers are like hoes in Las Vegas, minus the syphilis).


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

I am very interested in seeing a comparison picture between the Santa Cruz and the Santa Fe.

Although if I like the way the Santa Fe looks I won't know if it will be tacky to wear a watch named after the city I live near...

EDIT: Forgot to mention that the Näcken Modern Blue looks DOPE!


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

ConfusedOne said:


> I am very interested in seeing a comparison picture between the Santa Cruz and the Santa Fe.
> 
> Although if I like the way the Santa Fe looks I won't know if it will be tacky to wear a watch named after the city I live near...


I don't know, I think it would be cool to go to Santa Cruz, California wearing a watch named Santa Cruz. It'd probably blow some minds there lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jeffers0n (Sep 8, 2016)

love the modern blue....looks amazing


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Ok that's it, time to save up for the Amphion Dark Gilt and Nacken Modern Blue!!!

Good thing is that I will have a few months to do it. Have to think of how to explain it to the wifey though... hmmm....


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

They look great. Should be more hits. Especially that blue. Will be nice to see how the two turn out .


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> So glad I didn't get the black version (let's be honest, black drivers are like hoes in Las Vegas, minus the syphilis).


"Do you remember anything that might help us figure out what led to the train wreck?"

"I remember hearing someone say something about his p3n1s, Las Vegas, and syphilis, then there was a loud screech, a bright light, and the next thing I knew I was waking up here in the hospital...wait...this IS a hospital, right?"


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> I'm sure I'm making it all out to be more dramatic than it really is.
> 
> The pre-order survey was prompted by a combination of things - the madness which occurred with the Phantom's pre-order, the immense interest we saw in the Subs, and my desire to find the perfect pre-order structure which would somehow accomplish multiple, yet contradictory goals, including maximizing interest, maximizing profit, maximizing the customer's experience, and optimizing the production plan.
> 
> ...


What i'm thinking is needed is a crowdfunding-like / massdrop-like platform, where when enough people commit to preorder a model, it unlocks and they're billed. You pick the models, you set the thresholds, but people have commit to be billed. Needs some thought.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> What i'm thinking is needed is a crowdfunding-like / massdrop-like platform, where when enough people commit to preorder a model, it unlocks and they're billed. You pick the models, you set the thresholds, but people have commit to be billed. Needs some thought.


I'm probably not picking up everything you're putting down, but my pre-order structure isn't "broken", it's more like I'm Thomas Edison, on my way to discovering all the ways you could screw it up.

It's not like MassDrop, where the prices go down when more people get in. It's the opposite of that. My prices go up. It's demand-based pricing.

I've received lots of advice from people about it (mostly unsolicited, and pretty unusable). As I explained to at least one friend, the ideal state isn't necessarily one in which no one complains. I'll explain...

With the last few pre-orders we did, especially the Phantom and the Subs, because I started the pre-order pricing where I did (read, "LOW"), but limited the number available at the each price tier, it helped create a situation where there were more people trying to buy the limited number of pieces available than there were pieces for them to buy.

So some of those people got shut out of the first tier, and had to buy at the next tier, or the one after that. Some of them complained and/or decided not to buy.

Okay. What's my alternative? I should make MORE watches available than there are people looking to buy them? Really? Someone explain how that's good for my business.

What's the incentive for people to pre-order as soon as possible if I make so many available that people feel they can take their time, and get around to it when they get around to it? That doesn't work for me or my business.

Nope. I want to sell as many as I can as quickly as I can, but I also have to consider profitability. The only scheme that makes sense is the one I use - limit the number available at the lowest price, and raise the price when the first tier sells out.

The unfortunate, yet unavoidable by-product is some people don't get in at the first tier, causing some of them to get upset.

Look, when the Stones play the Garden, there are only so many front-row seats available. When they're gone, they're gone, and you get second row. Wait too long, you're in the nose-bleeds, behind a pillar.

Getting pissed at the Stones because someone else got in line before you doesn't make sense. The tickets are priced based on demand, and they're sold on a first-come/first-serve basis.

I want 200 people all lined up to buy the first 50 pieces, or whatever, just like Best Buy wants 500 lunatics waiting outside all night to get a flat-screen for $100 on Black Friday.

Yes, there is a limit to how far I want to take that, though. I'm not TRYING to piss people off, and I can't make too few available or raise prices too quickly, or I might see pre-orders come to a screeching halt.

And there are other considerations, like how many emails I have to field from people who couldn't get through checkout, and as I alluded to earlier, how do I manage lopsided demand when offering multiple versions of a new model?

I think I've pretty much got it figured out, more or less. I just have to prioritize the goals for pre-order, and focus on achieving the more important ones.

Honestly, creating the incentive for people to pre-order sooner rather than later, and getting the production numbers "correct" are both more important goals than avoiding a handful of pissy emails or worrying that I won't get time to eat lunch on pre-order day. If that means I have to manage some of this stuff in real-time, so be it. I did that during the Subs pre-order, which was insane, and I survived.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

I'll keep my ideas to myself. We're not communicating and you know what problems you face better than I do. I wasn't suggesting lowering prices when more people commit, instead using that commitment to get a firm read on actual demand, which sounded like one of the problems you faced. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Thanks Doc for explaining how you price your watches, it certainly makes it a bit easier for me to budget for the purchases. I also know that life happens when we least expect it, so if I happen to miss the first production run, chances are I can get one during the second production run (even at an increase in price). Also I'm hoping to get a promotion at work soon, which means an increase in pay, so my watch collection will grow this year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> I'll keep my ideas to myself. We're not communicating and you know what problems you face better than I do. I wasn't suggesting lowering prices when more people commit, instead using that commitment to get a firm read on actual demand, which sounded like one of the problems you faced.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry, Victor, I think you misread my tone, which was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. My apologies if I sounded abrupt.

Effectively managing pre-orders is one issue among many that plague micros. I'm still a little chafed at some of the comments sent my way after the Subs pre-order, when some people acted like I shot their dog because they didn't get in at the lowest tier.

I didn't betray anyone, but that's how some treated the situation.

This is a hobby. It's supposed to be fun. If people are getting pissed over spending $425 instead of $400 for a watch most people agree is worth more than $600, that's not fun, for them or for me, and it misses the bigger picture.

Meanwhile, this is a business for me, which some people sometimes forget. I think some of the transparency leads people to think my business is a democracy, in which people have a rightful say, but it isn't.

The indignation some people demonstrated during and after the Subs pre-order was a bit much for me to absorb, and I've just gotten less patient with people telling me how to run my business.

I'm trying my best to strike a balance between being the "engaged micro owner" and maintaining reasonable boundaries. It's not easy.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I think it's a safe bet that I'll get at least two. Whether that's a good thing is yet to be determined.

And, Doc, for all the crap that your consumers give you -- this seems appropriate.

When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

I really enjoy reading this and the other Nth and L&H threads. They're like reality TV but actually real and for WIS. Thanks Doc and everyone else.

Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> It's not like MassDrop, where the prices go down when more people get in. It's the opposite of that. My prices go up. It's demand-based pricing.


You could always try to contact Elshan from Zelos if you wanted to talk shop about it. That is how he did his Hammerhead release, for every X number sold a given version would go up in price until it hit full retail.

I feel like he did well with it, but I am also sure there were difficulties a consumer couldn't see.


----------



## iceman66 (Feb 24, 2013)

Pato_Lucas said:


> So glad I didn't get the black version (let's be honest, black drivers are like hoes in Las Vegas, minus the syphilis).


Somewhere, Gin Gin just stroked out


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

sgt.brimer said:


> I don't know, I think it would be cool to go to Santa Cruz, California wearing a watch named Santa Cruz. It'd probably blow some minds there lol
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll do you one better! I sat up in the morning in Santa Cruz counting down to the pre order and ordered my Santa Cruz in Santa Cruz, CA. I have since worn it there. Needless to say, no minds were blown because no one even noticed. Such is WIS life.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Sonic_driftwood said:


> I'll do you one better! I sat up in the morning in Santa Cruz counting down to the pre order and ordered my Santa Cruz in Santa Cruz, CA. I have since worn it there. Needless to say, no minds were blown because no one even noticed. Such is WIS life.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well played sir, well played!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Fullers1845 (Nov 23, 2008)

docvail said:


> Näcken Modern Blue:
> 
> View attachment 10641650


Two Words: Per. Fect. b-)


----------



## poisonwazthecure (Sep 17, 2014)

Wow the nacken modern blue looks great! I wasn't crazy about the sandy dial on the vintage. Awesome


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

As I said on Instagram, that Modern Blue will fly out the door! I'm in!


----------



## poisonwazthecure (Sep 17, 2014)

Keefy said:


> As I said on Instagram, that Modern Blue will fly out the door! I'm in!


I agree. I drool over pics of the vintage blue but the sandy dial wasn't my thing. I have no excuses now! I'll be getting in on the preorder this time.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Phun with photo philters...




























We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

These look great, Doc. If I didn't already have three blue divers, I'd be in for that new Nacken. I sold my Root Beer a while back, though... These next few weeks of waiting for the 'Cuda pics are going to be rough.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

iceman66 said:


> Somewhere, Gin Gin just stroked out


It took me 19 hours to get this joke.

[...*hangs head in shame*...]


----------



## iceman66 (Feb 24, 2013)

docvail said:


> It took me 19 hours to get this joke.
> 
> [...*hangs head in shame*...]


You're excused, I'm sure your mind is elsewhere on more important things, like tiered pre-order pricing and stuff.


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

A little fun color in todays choices.









Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Somewhere in the last few pages there was talk about Santa Cruz the watch and Santa Cruz, California.

Not that it matters, but the name actually comes from Santa Cruz, Argentina, and the Santa Cruz class of submarines used by the Argentinian navy.

Fun fact - When I was naming the Subs, I was just looking at a wiki with a list of submarine classes used by various countries, thinking about which sounded like good names, as well as trying to "spread the love" by finding names from all different parts of the world, while avoiding anything which might backfire, like choosing a name with divisive political baggage in some parts of the world.

When it came to which models would get which names, it was mostly just me looking at the design, and going on gut reaction.

I thought "Santa Cruz" sounded like a good name, and it just seemed to fit the blue/white color scheme. I don't know why.

I think it was WUS user R.A.D, who is from Argentina, who pointed out the color scheme for the watch precisely matched their flag's colors.

I honestly had no idea before he pointed it out:


----------



## iceman66 (Feb 24, 2013)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

iceman66 said:


> You're excused, I'm sure your mind is elsewhere on more important things, like tiered pre-order pricing and stuff.


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

Wait...the Santa Cruz is named after a different Santa Cruz than many of us imagine (that's easy to believe) and the color scheme completely accidentally matches the proper country's color scheme? Wow. Low odds there.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Just double checked and the Santa Fe will be named after a sub as well!
Then again the name of the sub came from the city so...yeah!
Here is some cool information on it here -------->https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Santa_Fe_(SSN-763)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jdcooper said:


> Wait...the Santa Cruz is named after a different Santa Cruz than many of us imagine (that's easy to believe) and the color scheme completely accidentally matches the proper country's color scheme? Wow. Low odds there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk


Yes. It was indeed a complete accident that the Santa Cruz's colors happen to match the Argentinian flag.

A happy accident, but an accident nonetheless.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ConfusedOne said:


> Just double checked and the Santa Fe will be named after a sub as well!
> Then again the name of the sub came from the city so...yeah!
> Here is some cool information on it here -------->https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Santa_Fe_(SSN-763)


This is the list I was using - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_submarine_classes.


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

I looked up Scorpene subs before this part of the thread, wondering if there was a thing.

It would be awesome (impossible) for all color schemes to match the origin.

Of course, the most common divers would have to be flying the Pirate Flag! (Or POW MIA)

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Oberon checking in


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

So the Orthos was named after a Russian Typhoon class sub?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

sgt.brimer said:


> So the Orthos was named after a Russian Typhoon class sub?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dont mix your metaphors! Orthos wasnt one of the subs...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

IIRC, certain Lew &Huey model names referenced Greek mythology. One of L&H's more popular model was Cerberus which was the name of a three-headed dog that had a two-headed brother named Orthrus or Orthus. Perhaps, Orthos is a variation of Orthus?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RNHC said:


> IIRC, certain Lew &Huey model names referenced Greek mythology. One of L&H's more popular model was Cerberus which was the name of a three-headed dog that had a two-headed brother named Orthrus or Orthus. Perhaps, Orthos is a variation of Orthus?


This.

Orthos is an alternate spelling of Orthrus, who was a doublet (sibling) of Cerberus.

As much as I love the caseback design on the Phantom, the Orthos caseback is my favorite, for its (Francis's) creativity.

According to mythology, Orthos and his master guarded a herd of giant cattle on a red sunset island in the western Mediterranean. Francis imagined Orthos as part fish, drawing him in the Japanese style, like a two-headed koi-dog, circling laps around the Island.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> This.
> 
> Orthos is an alternate spelling of Orthrus, who was a doublet (sibling) of Cerberus.
> 
> ...


Thanks for giving me the story on where the name came from. It's been decades since I had to remember mythology.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> It took me 19 hours to get this joke.
> 
> [...*hangs head in shame*...]


Ah the good ole days 

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> This.
> 
> Orthos is an alternate spelling of Orthrus, who was a doublet (sibling) of Cerberus.
> 
> ...


In this case I'm really looking forward the Ares and Hades projects.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> It's funny.
> 
> My son was wearing his modded Seiko SKX on a cork NATO, but I guess he's outgrown it.
> 
> ...


But it would look great on MY Riccardo!!!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

The subs are cool and all but.....



































:think:
Patiently waiting

o|


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

Commander on this fine Friday in Orlando.









Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> This is the list I was using - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_submarine_classes.


I am a former Submariner. I served on a Los Angeles class submarine&#8230; actually, I served on THE LOS ANGELES herself, SSN688. Secretly I've been hoping that Doc will make a NTH Sub named "Los Angeles" with a nod to the "First and Finest"!!! It wouldn't matter what color/dial/handest scheme that watch used, I would have to buy one. So I guess my wallet is happy he hasn't (yet?).

Fun fact about Submariners (not watches, the people who live/work on submarines). Submariner is pronounced suhb-muh-ree-ner, it is NOT pronounced suh b-mar-uh-ner. We take this rather personally. We are NOT "less than mariners"/ "Sub Mariners". We are Submarine-ers!

We also are known to refer to ships (floating ON TOP of the water) as "targets".


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

mplsabdullah said:


> View attachment 10663122


I'm going to try to find out what to do about getting THIS proto eventually, Japanese movement & all.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

As the Keeper Of The Shuttlecock, I strongly approve of the depicted name-giving.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

kendalw3 said:


> I am a former Submariner. I served on a Los Angeles class submarine&#8230; actually, I served on THE LOS ANGELES herself, SSN688.
> 
> Fun fact about Submariners (not watches, the people who live/work on submarines). Submariner is pronounced suhb-muh-ree-ner, it is NOT pronounced suh b-mar-uh-ner. We take this rather personally. We are NOT "less than mariners"/ "Sub Mariners". We are Submarine-ers!
> 
> We also are known to refer to ships (floating ON TOP of the water) as "targets".


"Rime of the Ancient Mariner" is not pronounced muh reen er.

Mariner ( meh ruh ner) is a sailor.

Submariner (sub-meh-ruh-ner) is a sailor below (Not less than. Below. You don't disagree that you're sailors below the surface, do you?)

Submareen-er was an incorrect pronunciation. It has crept into Merriam-Webster in addition to sub meh ruh ner , but is still not in the new oxford American dictionary.

That's the thing about English. Enough people do something incorrectly, we adopt it as accepted.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Playing with the lights


----------



## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

kendalw3 said:


> Fun fact about Submariners (not watches, the people who live/work on submarines). Submariner is pronounced suhb-muh-ree-ner, it is NOT pronounced suh b-mar-uh-ner. We take this rather personally. We are NOT "less than mariners"/ "Sub Mariners". We are Submarine-ers!





vmarks said:


> Submariner (sub-meh-ruh-ner) is a sailor below (Not less than. Below. You don't disagree that you're sailors below the surface, do you?)
> 
> Submareen-er was an incorrect pronunciation. It has crept into Merriam-Webster in addition to sub meh ruh ner , but is still not in the new oxford American dictionary.


Yeah, I am gonna go with the real Submariner. If he says it's pronounced sub-muh-ree-ner, that's how it's pronounced in my book. Your point is like a Englishman insisting that English pronunciation of a French word is more correct than how Frenchman pronounces it. :think:


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Lights off.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

So had hands on this gent for two days now, in fact wearing it right now. Wanted to share my thoughts on it an this seems like the best place.










First off I really like the Dial, it is different. Very retro soft of 70's but not really exactly like anything else. The grey bar texture is also neat because it can look anywhere from charcoalish to light grey, all depending on how the light hits it. I think the red inner bezel is also really cool, at an angle it pops quite a bit and makes the watch look really unique, but from a direct view it is very subtle and not in your face. The hands are also well designed and fit the theme, cool stuff.

Despite Doc not being a caseback guy I also really enjoy that, the three headed doggy is a neat logo. The case is also well finished with brushed and polished surfaces, and sits very nicely on the wrist. Very similar to my Black Bay, just not quite as good. I also like the Omega speedmaster styling to the curved lugs. Overall a great case!

Now there are going to be a few dings though, such is life. I really wish the crown were more interesting, it is a pretty par basic watch crown, and it doesn't screw down. I like screw down crowns. It does have the cute doggy on it so there is that. Dial wise, even though I like it, there are two very small parts on the silver inner ridge where there is some slight damage. On one it is a tiny scratch you can only see in some light, and the other a tiny chip that makes it always look different. Not huge deals, very hard to see unless you know exactly where to look, you may not even be able to see them in the pic. Lastly the date is a little off center, the first digit is a smidge closer to it's side of the window than the second digit. Again not obvious on glance and I can live with it.

The timegrapher tells me it is -6 to +4 in every position I tried it in. Which aint bad at all. I am totally okay with that. For some reason I was surprised it was a Miyota 9015, I was expecting a Seiko NH35 or 36, so that is also a plus.

So is it as sexy as the lady at the pool party? Maybe not, but it is sexy enough for me! Nice watch Doc. It might even sneak it's way into my winder...


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

RNHC said:


> Yeah, I am gonna go with the real Submariner. If he says it's pronounced sub-muh-ree-ner, that's how it's pronounced in my book. Your point is like a Englishman insisting that English pronunciation of a French word is more correct than how Frenchman pronounces it. :think:










From Dictionary.com


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> So had hands on this gent for two days now, in fact wearing it right now. Wanted to share my thoughts on it an this seems like the best place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Glad you like it. Thanks for the kind words.

The crown isn't a screw-down because the case is only 10 ATM WR. Screw-down crowns are generally a safety feature to avoid inadvertently pulling the crown out and changing the time during a dive.

Otherwise, they're not necessary, and for every person who likes them, just because, there'll be two or three guys who whinge about a screw-down crown on a non-dive watch with a movement that can be hand-wound.

Miyota only makes the 9015 with the date at 6 once or twice per year, and in limited numbers. We had to order those movements months in advance of needing them.

Unfortunately, what I didn't learn until I received the full production is that a fair number of the date wheels are printed such that the date doesn't sit centered in the window.

That's how the movements come from Miyota, Miyota doesn't consider it a "defect", and they don't take them back or replace them, so unfortunately there's nothing we could or can do to "fix" it.

When I found this in QC, and got that explanation from my factory, I had to make a decision about what to do.

We came up with what we thought was a fair QC standard - if the date sits entirely within the window, not necessarily perfectly in the center, but it isn't cut off by the frame, and neither of the dates on either side poke into the frame, it's within spec.

I later learned from several watchmakers that Miyota isn't alone, and our QC standard is just that - pretty standard - for most brands.

As for the damage to the dial, the Rolex school QC standard for blemishes and/or debris under the crystal is anything that isn't visible under a 3x loupe "isn't there".

Why do I go by the Rolex standard? Because it's the one most commonly taught by watchmaking schools, and its the one most commonly used in the industry. Even at Rolex, "perfection" down to the microscopic level isn't the standard. If you put any watch under a microscope, you'll find something wrong with it.

If what you're seeing is visible under 3x magnification or less, please email me a pic, if you don't mind, and we'll find a way to sort it out to your satisfaction. I may be able to replace the dial, or if not, we can do a partial refund.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

kendalw3 said:


> View attachment 10668490
> 
> From Dictionary.com
> 
> View attachment 10668506


As I said, dictionary.com and merriams have added the newer pronunciation while keeping the original one.

That's how the language changes. People make a goofy pronunciation or use a word to mean something other than its meaning and eventually enough people do it that a dictionary adopts it. It's only jarring for those of us that know what it was and why.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> If what you're seeing is visible under 3x magnification or less, please email me a pic, if you don't mind, and we'll find a way to sort it out to your satisfaction. I may be able to replace the dial, or if not, we can do a partial refund.


Lol I am kind of OCD, but not kind of anal. It is fine, you don't need to do anything.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Fun Fact:

Scorpène is pronounced "skohr-pehn" in French, where the name comes from, not "skohr-peen", which is how I think most people pronounce it.

But that would be Scorpéne (accent going the other way), which really seemed to irritate a French guy on here when Rusty illustrated it with the accent the wrong way.

However, Brazil also has a submarine class with the same name, and it's pronounced the same way, yet in Portuguese, the accent actually does go the other way, (so in Brazil, it's written as "Scorpéne"), but that would make it "skohr-peen" if you saw it and thought it was actually French, not Portuguese, which, again, apparently irritates French people.

I think the lesson here is that submarines are long and hard and full of submariners, not seamen, no matter how you pronounce the word, and despite the sophomoric joke about them.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm surely glad my Scorpène is not full of seamen. Or something.


----------



## smille76 (May 3, 2013)

docvail said:


> Fun Fact:
> 
> Scorpène is pronounced "skohr-pehn" in French, where the name comes from, not "skohr-peen", which is how I think most people pronounce it.
> 
> ...


+1.

You are right.

Scorpène pronounced like "Skor-Penn" (as in Penn state!).

Scorpéne would be "Skor-Peyne".

Cheers,

S.

Sent from my SHIELD Tablet using Tapatalk


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Sorry, maybe I'm taking this the wrong way, but I doubt I'm the only one who found it 'funny' that someone would quote Oxford to tell another person that he's pronouncing something that 'he is' incorrectly. 

Just in case the use of 'funny' is a bit ambiguous, I don't mean 'funny : ha ha'. 


Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

What? Scubamariners are Full of semen? Damn... 

But I really dig that long answer, sent from doc above. These two threads really educate me.


----------



## Tom Kelly (Apr 6, 2015)

I served 20 years on submarines and I'm not sure of the correct way to pronounce submariner. But I do know I'm waiting patiently for my Azores to arrive!


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

kendalw3 said:


> I am a former Submariner. I served on a Los Angeles class submarine&#8230; actually, I served on THE LOS ANGELES herself, SSN688. Secretly I've been hoping that Doc will make a NTH Sub named "Los Angeles" with a nod to the "First and Finest"!!! It wouldn't matter what color/dial/handest scheme that watch used, I would have to buy one. So I guess my wallet is happy he hasn't (yet?).
> 
> Fun fact about Submariners (not watches, the people who live/work on submarines). Submariner is pronounced suhb-muh-ree-ner, it is NOT pronounced suh b-mar-uh-ner. We take this rather personally. We are NOT "less than mariners"/ "Sub Mariners". We are Submarine-ers!
> 
> We also are known to refer to ships (floating ON TOP of the water) as "targets".


That was a clear explanation about pronunciation, and it was news to me. Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

vmarks said:


> "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" is not pronounced muh reen er.
> 
> Mariner ( meh ruh ner) is a sailor.
> 
> ...


Ah. A counter point. I should read to the end of the thread before I write! Or use my dictionary.

I stick with the OED before M-W for sure, but indeed language really isn't only for the pedants.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

macosie said:


> Sorry, maybe I'm taking this the wrong way, but I doubt I'm the only one who found it 'funny' that someone would quote Oxford to tell another person that he's pronouncing something that 'he is' incorrectly.
> 
> Just in case the use of 'funny' is a bit ambiguous, I don't mean 'funny : ha ha'.
> 
> Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


If i lend you a couple bucks, will you use it to buy a comma or two? I can't figure out what you're saying!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We're not getting through the weekend without two or three arguments happening here, are we?

I think there's only one man qualified to suss out all these disparate views on pronunciation and syntax.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Hwa, save your money. Instead, take vmarks for a beer at a bar frequented by submariners. Have fun teaching then the right way to say it. I'm sure they'll appreciate a grammar lesson too.

Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

"Something something train wreck?"

"Couple of guys arguing about submarines, yadda, yadda, yadda."

"Yo, this Tapatalk is the shizzle f'rizzle. Y'all gotta try some..."


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

macosie said:


> Sorry, maybe I'm taking this the wrong way, but I doubt I'm the only one who found it 'funny' that someone would quote Oxford to tell another person that he's pronouncing something that 'he is' incorrectly.
> 
> Just in case the use of 'funny' is a bit ambiguous, I don't mean 'funny : ha ha'.
> 
> Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


Hint: American oxford is not strictly British. It's compiled by murrican editors. Do some looking into the etymology of the word and its earlier pronunciation. This isn't difficult.

It was strange to me that men with the fortitude to ride around under the water in a tin can powered by nukes would need to pronounce it wrong in order to fend off taunts (sub as less than? No, it means below.) by sailors who ride on targets. But whatever, it's their job, and it seems to have become accepted to pronounce it that way, right or wrong.

Carry on.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

macosie said:


> Sorry, maybe I'm taking this the wrong way, but I doubt I'm the only one who found it 'funny' that someone would quote Oxford to tell another person that he's pronouncing something that 'he is' incorrectly.
> 
> Just in case the use of 'funny' is a bit ambiguous, I don't mean 'funny : ha ha'.
> 
> Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


Hint: American oxford is not strictly British. It's compiled by murrican editors. Do some looking into the etymology of the word and its earlier pronunciation. This isn't difficult.

It was strange to me that men with the fortitude to ride around under the water in a tin can powered by nukes would need to pronounce it wrong in order to fend off taunts (sub as less than? No, it means below.) by sailors who ride on targets. But whatever, it's their job, and it seems to have become accepted to pronounce it that way, right or wrong.

Carry on.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

I'm buying a beer for doc and hwa, and i'm out for the weekend. Dive deep, sail on guys. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

vmarks said:


> I'm buying a beer for doc and hwa, and i'm out for the weekend. Dive deep, sail on guys.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey, man, you bring the beer, I'll bring the whiskey! Any time! Some folks are just too sensitive. We need a disclaimer. Doc, can you help us out with that? Something something yadda yadda?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gdb1960 (Dec 23, 2013)

docvail said:


> We're not getting through the weekend without two or three arguments happening here, are we?
> 
> I think there's only one man qualified to suss out all these disparate views on pronunciation and syntax.
> 
> ...


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

hwa said:


> Hey, man, you bring the beer, I'll bring the whiskey! Any time! Some folks are just too sensitive. We need a disclaimer. Doc, can you help us out with that? Something something yadda yadda?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're on! I like the sherry cask, and I'll bring the laphroaig for ya.

I'm also buying one for the sailor. Man's earned it.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

hwa said:


> Hey, man, you bring the beer, I'll bring the whiskey! Any time! Some folks are just too sensitive. We need a disclaimer. Doc, can you help us out with that? Something something yadda yadda?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, perhaps some people are sensitive, and others are dicks hiding behind what they deem is humour. 
One dumba$$ disrespecting a serviceman, and his grammar cop buddy jumps to his aid. 
Sorry everyone. Didn't mean this to be such a spectacle. Guess I fed these Muppets the attention they so desperately craved. 
I'm done.

Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

vmarks said:


> You're on! I like the sherry cask, and I'll bring the laphroaig for ya.
> 
> I'm also buying one for the sailor. Man's earned it.


I think i own an inch of bog at Laphroaig! You're on!

Meanwhile, whats with newbies showing up and throwing up shade? When the hardcore 'muricans get holier than thou with their own version of political correctness, you know we've jumped the shark. Sheesh.

To all: I apologize for engaging in educated humor here on this thread where I've been hanging around for years. Lets drop it back down to ..... lume and chimichangas. Yeah, right.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

hwa said:


> I think i own an inch of bog at Laphroaig! You're on!
> 
> Meanwhile, whats with newbies showing up and throwing up shade? When the hardcore 'muricans get holier than thou with their own version of political correctness, you know we've jumped the shark. Sheesh.
> 
> ...


I like lume. Big, tracts of glowing lume.

Disagreeing with a sailor about his area of expertise is probably not smart, but I didn't think it was disrespectful.

I apologize to those offended by me.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

vmarks said:


> I like lume. Big, tracts of glowing lume.
> 
> Disagreeing with a sailor about his area of expertise is probably not smart, but I didn't think it was disrespectful.
> 
> I apologize to those offended by me.


I didn't think there was anything disrespectful whatsoever, but some like to look for it.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Did someone say they like LUME:











vmarks said:


> I like lume. Big, tracts of glowing lume.
> 
> Disagreeing with a sailor about his area of expertise is probably not smart, but I didn't think it was disrespectful.
> 
> I apologize to those offended by me.


----------



## Derek N (Jun 12, 2006)

Just put this one together; Lew & Huey Phantom 300 or Phantom Commander?


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Derek N said:


> Just put this one together; Lew & Huey Phantom 300 or Phantom Commander?


But...Why does this look and fit so well!?!


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Derek N said:


> Just put this one together; Lew & Huey Phantom 300 or *Phantom Commander?*


Ok, I've seen what some of you guys have done when given an orb, a loupe and some fine tweezers, but OMG, this is Phrikkin Phabulous, D.N.!!

Now someone send a few straps with PVD/IP/DLC hardware to Hawaii or I will.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

vmarks said:


> I like lume. Big, tracts of glowing lume.
> 
> Disagreeing with a sailor about his area of expertise is probably not smart, but I didn't think it was disrespectful.
> 
> I apologize to those offended by me.


Not offended. I've got a very thick hide. Takes a lot to offend me. The ribbing we give each other on this forum is all in jest. I get it. It is fun. No bad feelings here.

Tom, which sub(s) did you serve on?


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Is that phantom 300 for freaking real?? I have a commander and a dlc phantom sitting in my watch box...Please elaborate on this ??

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

Derek N said:


> Just put this one together; Lew & Huey Phantom 300 or Phantom Commander?


Wow.
Just. Wow.....!!!!!


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

That is seriously cool.
I'm not simply stating that I like it... I'm saying that it's cool in the way that motorcycles, Ray Bans and Led Zeppelin are cool. It has that level of style to it!


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

LOL, if Doc released a LE 'Phantom Commander' I'd buy one.


----------



## whoa (May 5, 2013)

Derek N said:


> Just put this one together; Lew & Huey Phantom 300 or Phantom Commander?


This. Is. Cool.

!!!!!!

/insert clever or funny note here\


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

That is _*the*_ most awesome mod I have seen in ages!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Where's the other half of the mod?? I'm talking about phantom dial in stainless 300 case

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ConfusedOne said:


> But...Why does this look and fit so well!?!


Indeed.

My first thought went to the gentleman to whom I'd sold a replacement Commander dial, trying to remember if I'd asked him to send me a pic of the scratch he claimed was on the one he had. That thought was formed inside my head as, "that lying bastard duped me!"

But no, unless there's some serious subterfuge going on, that's not what I'm seeing.

My next thought was to try to remember the dial diameters for the two models. For some reason I have it in my head that they're not easily compatible, but I'll have to dig out the specs when I'm in my office later.

Until then, color me impressed and intrigued.

"Yo, this Tapatalk is the shizzle f'rizzle. Y'all gotta try some..."


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Yep, that's pretty cool lookin. :-!


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

Damn, I should have ordered a strap.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Codename: Phantom Harbinger



Derek N said:


> Just put this one together; Lew & Huey Phantom 300 or Phantom Commander?


----------



## Derek N (Jun 12, 2006)

azsuprasm said:


> Ok, I've seen what some of you guys have done when given an orb, a loupe and some fine tweezers, but OMG, this is Phrikkin Phabulous, D.N.!!
> 
> Now someone send a few straps with PVD/IP/DLC hardware to Hawaii or I will.


The gentleman who sold me his Phantom sent it with a black and a khaki NATO with blackened hardware; and they look great on both. I just took the picture with the leather strap as I thought that shade of brown/tan would match the aged lame better. I now should invest in some leather straps with black hardware.



Mil6161 said:


> Is that phantom 300 for freaking real?? I have a commander and a dlc phantom sitting in my watch box...Please elaborate on this ??





Mil6161 said:


> Where's the other half of the mod?? I'm talking about phantom dial in stainless 300 case





docvail said:


> Indeed.
> 
> My first thought went to the gentleman to whom I'd sold a replacement Commander dial, trying to remember if I'd asked him to send me a pic of the scratch he claimed was on the one he had. That thought was formed inside my head as, "that lying bastard duped me!"
> 
> ...


Thank you all for the positive comments, it is really appreciated. Please let me explain my rationale and reasoning behind the mods of this Phantom/Commander fusion. I guess you can say that it all started over a year ago. Being a life long collector of watches; I recently let go 2 special Ω SM300s one vintage and a Watchco SM300.










I sold them as they were not getting worn much and because of their expense; and did not want to damage them during day to day wear. This left me with a yearning to search for a substitute Ω SM300 that was similar in appearance and could be worn in daily rotation without fear of it getting damaged. When I discovered about the Orthos Commander 300 project, I knew that that was the watch I was looking for. I hoped that it would look like the watch worn by Bond in "Spectre". I picked one up in the Sales Corner and decided that although it looked similar, the dial was not the same. Being a watch modder, I noticed that aftermarket Seiko parts supplier Dagaz Watches sold a dial/handset that was exactly what I needed. So parts were ordered, arrived in a few weeks, and once it arrived and 30 minutes later; this:










This mod was a simple dial/hands swap; plus you need to add a Seiko SKX chapter ring. I love the look and feel of this watch; very similar to the modern Ω SM300.

When I recently saw a Lew & Huey Phantom for sale in the Sales Corner; a thought crossed my mind that the spare Commander 300 dial might fit it. So I bought the watch and when it first arrived I noticed that the Commander dial was significantly smaller in diameter (2mm?) than the Phantom dial. My heart sank, but I was not too disappointed as the Phantom was an incredibly handsome watch that I would enjoy wearing.

So I wore the Phantom for a few days and the watch modding bug started to kick in saying that it would look awesome with an all red seconds hand. So I took apart the watch and at that time figured why not swap out the dials and see if I can make it work. The dial swap was easy as the dial feet were exactly the same. Hands fit easily. And when I plopped the movement into the case it easily dropped in, no problem with hands/crystal interference because of the domed crystal. Because the diameter of the Commander 300 dial was smaller in diameter, it fitted deeper into the case than it would be with the Phantom dial in place. There was a noticeable gap between the dial and movement holder of about 1.5 - 2.0 mm. Thus this necessitated a spacer that needed to be sandwiched between the dial and movement holder so the movement/dial wouldn't rattle around being unsecured. I ended up using 2 rubber flat case back gaskets of the same diameter sandwiched between the back of the movement and the holder; and now the movement is very secure in the case. I've been wearing it now for the past 2 days without any issues. What I love about this mod is that it reminds me of my vintage Ω SM300: acrylic crystal and push/pull crown as my vintage Seamaster had the NAIAD push/pull crown as well. The DLC coating gives it a rugged tool appearance and should hold up well to minor bumps and bashes during daily wear.



















Now the question is, what am I to do with the spare Phantom dial/handsets? : )


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Derek N said:


> Just put this one together; Lew & Huey Phantom 300 or Phantom Commander?


Well done! So tempted to try this mod because I have both watches too.

IMHO it works so well because the Phantom bezel and case are similar to the Seamaster 300 currently in production.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

There you have it Doc, a totally kosher forum friendly new Commander 300, the Phantom Commander! (sorry couldn't resist, don't beat me.....)

In all seriousness that is an awesome mod, and I do actually like it's interwebs looks better than either of the watches it was made from.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Derek N said:


> The gentleman who sold me his Phantom sent it with a black and a khaki NATO with blackened hardware; and they look great on both. I just took the picture with the leather strap as I thought that shade of brown/tan would match the aged lame better. I now should invest in some leather straps with black hardware.
> 
> Thank you all for the positive comments, it is really appreciated. Please let me explain my rationale and reasoning behind the mods of this Phantom/Commander fusion. I guess you can say that it all started over a year ago. Being a life long collector of watches; I recently let go 2 special Ω SM300s one vintage and a Watchco SM300.
> 
> ...


You win. Something, I don't know what, but you should get a shirt or internet points or something. Awesome!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I admit, that's pretty genius.

I looked up the dial diameters yesterday. If memory serves, the Orthos dial is only 0.5mm smaller in diameter, but shouldn't be so small it slides up into the Phantom's dial opening.

But the Phantom dial is sandwich style, so it's twice as thick (0.8mm vs 0.4mm), so some sort of spacer would definitely be needed to get the Orthos dial to sit correctly in the Phantom's case.

"Yo, this Tapatalk is the shizzle f'rizzle. Y'all gotta try some..."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Snow sux.










"Yo, this Tapatalk is the shizzle f'rizzle. Y'all gotta try some..."


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> Snow sux.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Snow Sux&#8230; but that Tropics DOESN'T!!!
I bet it doesn't make you any warmer though, probably makes you wish you were in the Tropics!


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

*double post


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

I was outside most of the day on Saturday building new steps for the front of the house, it was snowing in the morning, it sucked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> I admit, that's pretty genius.
> 
> I looked up the dial diameters yesterday. If memory serves, the Orthos dial is only 0.5mm smaller in diameter, but shouldn't be so small it slides up into the Phantom's dial opening.
> 
> ...


Looking at the specs for each watch now...

Orthos dial is 32mm, married to a dial opening of 31mm.

Phantom dial is 32.5mm, married to a dial opening of 31.5mm.

The 1mm difference is pretty standard.

So, like I said above, even though the Orthos dial is 0.5mm smaller, it's still large enough that it should sit under the dial opening in the Phantom's case and not slide up into it, but you'll definitely need some sort of 0.4mm dial spacer under the dial to take up the space left by the Phantom's thicker dial, otherwise the movement/dial assembly will be flopping up and down within the case.

Both the Phantom and Orthos handsets should work in either case. Neither handset is long enough to be worried about it scraping the inner case wall. You just want to be careful to mount the seconds hand level. There's not a lot of clearance between the top of the pinion and the inside of the crystal in either watch, so if not mounted correctly, the hand could scrape the underside of the crystal.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> Snow Sux&#8230; but that Tropics DOESN'T!!!
> I bet it doesn't make you any warmer though, probably makes you wish you were in the Tropics!


Yes, it does... no, it doesn't!!! 
No, it doesn't, and yes, it does!

Fun Fact: that shot was taken outside my post office, where my PO box is, about a quarter-mile from my house. My watchmaker's shop can be seen over my right shoulder, directly across the street.

It's not uncommon for me to retreive a watch needing repair under warranty from my PO box, walk across the street to give it to the watchmaker, pick a different watch up, then walk back across the street to return that one to its owner.

That's what we in the watch-selling business call "conveniently located".


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Snow sux.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You made me remember my first winter in Cleveland, the first snow I was "so this is snow... so cool!" one month later I was shoving and saying "more white sh1t!!!!"


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Doc... It think it only fair you sent that watch here to me in India. My thermometer reads 90... That's life in the tropics. Enjoy the snow... 

Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Thanks for testing the snow proof rating of my watch before dropping it off at the post office doc. Your personalized customer service and QC process is second to none. :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Derek N said:


>


Derek - two questions for you...

1. Is it a trick of perspective, or are the two watches in the above pic different sizes? And would you mind telling us which is which, plus their sizes? I'm vaguely familiar with the Watchco back story, but not familiar enough to know why the Watchco wouldn't be the same size as the SM300. I thought the Wathco's were "home brews" assembled using gen Omega parts, which I somewhat understood meant an SM300 case containing a different calibre than what was in the original. It's surprising to see how different they appear, other than the different dial markings.

2. If you wouldn't mind, can you contact me via the website's support page? I'd have emailed you directly, but I couldn't seem to find your info in my customer records. I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask you privately (nothing cringe-worthy, I assure you).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The irony of that Phantom Commander mash-up just occurred to me.

Those who followed that project from its infancy may remember the debate which raged about the case, in which some people felt the Orthos case was all wrong, and wanted to use the Phantom case instead.

That mod gives a glimpse of what might have been.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm not saying the dog in this pic might be Sparky, but you draw your own conclusions.










"Yo, this Tapatalk is the shizzle f'rizzle. Y'all gotta try some..."


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

Pato_Lucas said:


> You made me remember my first winter in Cleveland, the first snow I was "so this is snow... so cool!" one month later I was shoving and saying "more white sh1t!!!!"


In 1967, Chicago had an enormous blizzard (so the history books say). A girl in Florida wrote to a railway owner, asking for her White Christmas dream to come true. They actually made it happen with an entire boxcar of the stuff! There was a big to do about it with press and everything. The girl was so excited. But by the end of the day, she was sick of it already.

No joke.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wb...d4b19573/amp?client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

jdcooper said:


> In 1967, Chicago had an enormous blizzard (so the history books say). A girl in Florida wrote to a railway owner, asking for her White Christmas dream to come true. They actually made it happen with an entire boxcar of the stuff! There was a big to do about it with press and everything. The girl was so excited. But by the end of the day, she was sick of it already.
> 
> No joke.
> 
> ...


That gave me a good laugh, maybe I'm getting old but I kind of miss those simpler, more innocent days.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Need moar pix 









Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Some macro fun:


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

I think that NTH logo is genius and the one who created it deserves a medal. A lumed medal, it should be. Just because.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Double post, I don't know how. Tapatalk. Sorry about that.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nacken Vintage Blue - sold out.

And then there were four...


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Oh well life happened at an unexpected time this month, so I'll have to wait until the next batch of subs comes out. Glad business is rocking for you Doc!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Nacken Vintage Blue - sold out.
> 
> And then there were four...


I'm just going to leave this here.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sgt.brimer said:


> Oh well life happened at an unexpected time this month, so I'll have to wait until the next batch of subs comes out. Glad business is rocking for you Doc!


Thank you sir.

Life does happen. It's only a watch. There will be another for sale on f29 soon enough, I'm sure, if you just gotta have one, and buying used will save you some money. I'd set up an alert on WatchRecon.

My tentative plan is to see how this next batch of Subs sell, and get a feel for leftover demand for the first versions, then try to make more of whatever people want from both batches (plus, maybe some more new versions) in the third batch, which we may produce later this year.

I don't want to make more of the Nacken Modern/Vintage Blue or Amphion Modern/Vintage in this next batch, so we can avoid them competing with the Nacken Modern Blue, Amphion Dark Gilt, and Amphion Vintage Blue.

It would also be nice to see how used prices are affected by these models being sold out, even if it's only temporarily.

As for my business, it's still not where I want it to be yet, but I try to remind myself to be patient, look at what's been accomplished, and be thankful for the interest people have in what we're doing. The positive feedback is a motivating factor.

I've got two new models in development right now for NTH, and two special projects for L&H, all of which I'll hopefully be able to reveal soon. The people I've shown the early design drafts too were pretty enthusiastic about them, so I'm eager to get all the details nailed down.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> ..., then try to make more of whatever people want from both batches (plus, maybe some more new versions)...


I'm reading between the lines here and predicting that there will be a "Los Angeles" model... in which case I will be obligated to buy one.

(wishful thinking anyway. I am NOT trying to influence Doc's choice of model names, design ideas, or making any suggestions at all!)



docvail said:


> ...and two special projects for L&H, all of which I'll hopefully be able to reveal soon...


Please tell me that one of these is the previously discussed "Project Hydra". Lie to me if you must, but I was really looking forward to Project Hydra. Plenty of good discussions "back in the day"....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> I'm reading between the lines here and predicting that there will be a "Los Angeles" model... in which case I will be obligated to buy one.
> 
> (wishful thinking anyway. I am NOT trying to influence Doc's choice of model names, design ideas, or making any suggestions at all!)
> 
> Please tell me that one of these is the previously discussed "Project Hydra". Lie to me if you must, but I was really looking forward to Project Hydra. Plenty of good discussions "back in the day"....


Project Hydra has been mothballed, sitting next to the Ark of the Covenant and the alien corpses from Roswell. It'll be uncrated when the world is ready.

"Yo, this Tapatalk is the shizzle f'rizzle. Y'all gotta try some..."


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> My tentative plan is to see how this next batch of Subs sell, and get a feel for leftover demand for the first versions, then try to make more of whatever people want from both batches (plus, maybe some more new versions) in the third batch, which we may produce later this year.


YES!!!! If Janis could have a first "permanent model" like Melbourne does, it's the subs. Here's hoping we see some Hulk version in the future.



docvail said:


> As for my business, it's still not where I want it to be yet, but I try to remind myself to be patient, look at what's been accomplished, and be thankful for the interest people have in what we're doing. The positive feedback is a motivating factor.


You'll get there man. Remember that every dog will have his day 



docvail said:


> I've got two new models in development right now for NTH, and two special projects for L&H, all of which I'll hopefully be able to reveal soon. The people I've shown the early design drafts too were pretty enthusiastic about them, so I'm eager to get all the details nailed down.


Great to know there's something cooking for L&H, it's been a while. I hope it involves blue and orange, I don't know about the rest but for me it has become the L&H signature.


----------



## Capt Obvious (Jul 21, 2014)

docvail said:


> Thank you sir.
> 
> Life does happen. It's only a watch. There will be another for sale on f29 soon enough, I'm sure, if you just gotta have one, and buying used will save you some money. I'd set up an alert on WatchRecon.
> 
> ...


Well as someone who just ordered a Scorpene a couple hours ago, I'm keenly interested to see what subs you may have in the pipe.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

Phantom Friday...









Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Capt Obvious said:


> Well as someone who just ordered a Scorpene a couple hours ago, I'm keenly interested to see what subs you may have in the pipe.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Thanks Ty!


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Doc,

I told you to lie to me!!! Oh well... I suppose I'm actually happy you told the truth. Project Hydra has been moth balled until the world is ready... roger that!

If/when the world is ready, and Project Hydra is brought back out of it's storage box and released as a product, will you tell us(me) that Model TBD is/was actually Project Hydra? Otherwise I will always wonder: "oooooo!!! Is this one Project Hydra?". I don't know, maybe you never want to hear or speak the words "Project Hydra" ever again. If so, I could live with that. I respect you and your planning/project decisions.

More seriously, I am excited to hear that you have something coming up for Lew & Huey. I was wondering how long it was going to take for something new to come through this product lineup. NTH is awesome, but so was L&H. Looking forward to more from each lineup.


----------



## Derek N (Jun 12, 2006)

docvail said:


> Derek - two questions for you...
> 
> 1. Is it a trick of perspective, or are the two watches in the above pic different sizes? And would you mind telling us which is which, plus their sizes? I'm vaguely familiar with the Watchco back story, but not familiar enough to know why the Watchco wouldn't be the same size as the SM300. I thought the Wathco's were "home brews" assembled using gen Omega parts, which I somewhat understood meant an SM300 case containing a different calibre than what was in the original. It's surprising to see how different they appear, other than the different dial markings.
> 
> 2. If you wouldn't mind, can you contact me via the website's support page? I'd have emailed you directly, but I couldn't seem to find your info in my customer records. I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask you privately (nothing cringe-worthy, I assure you).


Hi Chris,

1. The two Ω SM300s appear to be different sizes because of the angle that the shot was taken. I had to angle my camera so that the glare of my desk lamp did not appear on the acrylic crystals. I am not certain of the size of those watches as I have sold both of them, but I am thinking it was somewhere in the 41 - 42mm range. The one with the large triangle at 12 is the original vintage, and the one below is the Watchco version. They both sport the Ω cal. 565 (date) movements with quickset push/pull date feature. The Watchco SM300 was put together with all new parts except for the movement. The only other difference between the 2 watches is that the Watchco version had a screw down crown, and the vintage a push/pull NAIAD crown.

2. I've emailed you through your Janis Trading Co. website; by the way you have an awesome variety of beautiful watches!


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

Still enjoying my NTH! So good lookin!


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

Ahhh lucky man ! It's gorgeous.
I want a Santa Cruz but no one is selling


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

40mm said:


> Ahhh lucky man ! It's gorgeous.
> I want a Santa Cruz but no one is selling


Post a WTB ("want to buy") thread in the private sales section of the forum.

WTB - Wanted to Buy

Or wait for us to start pre-orders again within the next couple of months.


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

40mm said:


> Ahhh lucky man ! It's gorgeous.
> I want a Santa Cruz but no one is selling


Well, now you know why no one sells it! LOL. It's definitely a looker. 
I'm not into 40mm watches (will actually be selling my Sinn) but this one just takes the cake. It feels great, runs well, and you can dress it up or down.

As Doc mentioned, wait until new pre-orders and jump on it quick!!

Good Luck.


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

OK thanks Doc and Gelocks, I'll wait for the next batch then (soooon ? I hope  )


----------



## biggymo6 (May 13, 2016)

docvail said:


> Post a WTB ("want to buy") thread in the private sales section of the forum.
> 
> WTB - Wanted to Buy
> 
> Or wait for us to start pre-orders again within the next couple of months.


I know that you said that you'd wait on the Nacken Vintage Blue, but I do hope that you run another batch again. Unfortunately, I missed the boat this time around as I "discovered" its goodness after I had just depleted the watch fund, but I certainly plan to purchase in the future!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Doc, Can't tell you how much I enjoy my Nacken Modern. It's comfortable, perfectly sized for my 6.75" wrist. It constantly gets complements at work. Runs within a few seconds a day. 

How much more could you ask?

How about one with a Root Beer bezel and gilt dial.....Oh, I forgot, that's called the Barracuda! GET THAT PROTOTYPE in hand so we can all see it. Darn CNY.

Skip


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## davidozo (Sep 4, 2015)

Dear Doc, I put a slideshow of your sub with lots of photos, here in Italy, the Watches Forum and Passions.
I liked them very much and since we Italians are famous for style and taste of living ( you by chance in your ancestors of the Italians? ), have appreciated the human dimensions of your clocks and processing of materials, colors and great attention has aroused Scorpene and Oberon.
Everyone is waiting for Santa Fe.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

davidozo said:


> Dear Doc, I put a slideshow of your sub with lots of photos, here in Italy, the Watches Forum and Passions.
> I liked them very much and since we Italians are famous for style and taste of living ( you by chance in your ancestors of the Italians? ), have appreciated the human dimensions of your clocks and processing of materials, colors and great attention has aroused Scorpene and Oberon.
> Everyone is waiting for Santa Fe.


As it happens, I'm slightly less than half-Italian, on my mother's side, so grazie, Paisan.

Also, as it happens, I have been to Italy - Milan, in fact - and yes, I would have to be blind to not notice how fashionable Italians are.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

I had a hard laugh, thanks 

and knowing, no pictures makes this thread less picture-esque ( ) behold the näcken VB in all her stainless-steeliness on a nicely tanned Hirsch


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Were I forced to keep only one Janis watch, it would be this one.










Thankfully, no one is forcing me to give up the others.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> Were I forced to keep only one Janis watch, it would be this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Downgrade the EDC, brother, and we can talk. Ive seen your IG account!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Achtungz (Jul 18, 2015)

I have an amphion modern coming in this week!! Just wondering is there a way to source a box sapphire crystal for it? Any parts doc?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

What's a box sapphire crystal? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Capt Obvious (Jul 21, 2014)

A few months back I had an NTH Oberon that while it was a great watch, it wasn't me.

A few days ago I ordered tge NTH Scorpene and I absolutely love it. Chris, Russ, you guys knocked this one out of the park!









Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## gdb1960 (Dec 23, 2013)

Sportin' the Commander!


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

gdb1960 said:


> Sportin' the Commander!


What kind of witchcraft have you used to keep that bezel so pristine?


----------



## gdb1960 (Dec 23, 2013)

Pato_Lucas said:


> What kind of witchcraft have you used to keep that bezel so pristine?


It's a gift, I try to only use it for the powers of light! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

gdb1960 said:


> It's a gift, I try to only use it for the powers of light!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're not fooling anyone!


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

I've had to cut back wearing my Commander because I noticed I had gouged the bezel (not sure how or when I did it). I need to price a replacement, I get a lot of positive comments from people when I wear it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Is that a dark grey or a dark blue strap?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

sgt.brimer said:


> Is that a dark grey or a dark blue strap?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dark gray

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Amphion Modern on "The Condor" from NatoStrapCo




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Achtungz said:


> I have an amphion modern coming in this week!! Just wondering is there a way to source a box sapphire crystal for it? Any parts doc?


I don't have alternative parts for sale. All my parts are the same as stock components, which we use as spares when replacements are needed.

I wouldn't recommend replacing the crystal, as that would void your warranty, but if you were dead set on doing it, you may find thicker crystals or crystals with other shapes via the aftermarket.



hwa said:


> What's a box sapphire crystal?


I believe he means a crystal with a shape like the Phantom's, one which has more pronounced sides, like an inverted cooking pot, as opposed to a simple dome shape, like an inverted frying pan (to stick with the culinary simile), as in the Subs, Orthos, Cerberus, etc.



Capt Obvious said:


> A few months back I had an NTH Oberon that while it was a great watch, it wasn't me.
> 
> A few days ago I ordered tge NTH Scorpene and I absolutely love it. Chris, Russ, you guys knocked this one out of the park!
> 
> ...


Rusty only deserves credit for the case shape, and only partial credit at that, since I had to resort to threats of violence to get him to do what I was telling him to do. Don't build him up too much.

All the dial/bezel/handset designs come from me and our other co-conspirator, who shall remain anonymous, at least for the time being, to protect his safety, and his inbox from being pounded with requests (the way mine is).


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Still one of my favorites!!!


----------



## Achtungz (Jul 18, 2015)

hwa said:


> What's a box sapphire crystal?
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I mean something similar to this :-d


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

How about a little lume battle with Luna?










Ok... maybe Luna wins by a little.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Hot season. Traded my leather for steel. This is borrowed from my SNKN41. Would love to find a bracelet to keep with the Spectre. Anyone have luck? I would love to put this on a black Spectre... Any chance of more of those being produced?

Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> Hot season. Traded my leather for steel. This is borrowed from my SNKN41. Would love to find a bracelet to keep with the Spectre. Anyone have luck? I would love to put this on a black Spectre... Any chance of more of those being produced?
> 
> Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


I believe the Sinn 240 bracelet will fit the Spectre.

I don't plan on making any more of the black Spectre.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Achtungz said:


> I have an amphion modern coming in this week!! Just wondering is there a way to source a box sapphire crystal for it? Any parts doc?





hwa said:


> What's a box sapphire crystal?





Achtungz said:


> I mean something similar to this :-d
> View attachment 10809265


So...that watch has one of two things going on.

It's either as I described with the Phantom - the crystal has a pronounced bowl-shape to it, with walls that rise up before turning flatter across the top, OR, it's actually a fairly conventionally-shaped crystal, more dish-shaped than bowl-shaped, and what you're seeing there isn't the "side of the bowl", but rather the "edge of the plate".

The Subs are actually in fact a less pronounced example of the latter. The Subs' crystals are more dish-shaped than bowl-shaped, but with a portion of their edge exposed, just not as much as you can see with that Grand Seiko in the pic above. I think we exposed 0.35mm of the crystal's edge, which seemed like "enough" for a tool watch, without being "too much".

If you wanted more exposed edge, but NOT the bowl-shape I had assumed you meant, then what you'd look for is a replacement crystal that has the same diameter (29.5mm), but is thicker than stock (double-domed, 2.5mm).

But, again, I would NOT recommend replacing the crystal, at least not until your warranty has expired, as that WILL void your warranty immediately.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> But, again, I would NOT recommend replacing the crystal, at least not until your warranty has expired, as that WILL void your warranty immediately.


What Doc is trying to say is, "Don't be like jelliottz." Pencil hands on the Santa Cruz... (which I dig, BTW)


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> I believe the Sinn 240 bracelet will fit the Spectre.
> 
> I don't plan on making any more of the black Spectre.


You made me think about the Phantom, know about a PVD bracelet that would fit it?



Achtungz said:


> View attachment 10809265


Off topic, but I didn't have to see the dial to know it's a Grand Seiko, outstanding design AND manufacture.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> You made me think about the Phantom, know about a PVD bracelet that would fit it?


With end-links fitted to that case?

No, I do not know a bracelet that will definitely fit.

With straight end-links? Sure, Strapcode has some PVD bracelets.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Achtungz said:


> I mean something similar to this :-d
> View attachment 10809265


Kind of reminds me of the Bulova Moon Watch crystal. I thought it was weird when I saw pics but think it's pretty cool in person....that is...until I shatter it accidentally.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Achtungz (Jul 18, 2015)

Just got my amphion today, and I'm liking every single moment with it


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)

Another Amphion here.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> With end-links fitted to that case?
> 
> No, I do not know a bracelet that will definitely fit.
> 
> With straight end-links? Sure, Strapcode has some PVD bracelets.


Here ya go








Strapcode straight link

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Black Bracelet on a PVD Phantom? On Fannum Phrydae, of course!

On straight end links:









On Shark Mesh. OOOH-hah-ha


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Santa Cruz checkin' in on Feel Good Friday!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Consider this a PSA.

I just snagged this image from someone in my Facebook feed. I thought it would be good to whip out the next time I see someone start a "lowball offers" thread, but I may forget, or lose it, or not see the thread, so anyone here can feel free to post it.










"Yo, this Tapatalk is the shizzle f'rizzle. Y'all gotta try some..."


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

docvail said:


>


:-D I always get that type of reply on just about ANYTHING I put up on Craig's list, and my reply is similar:

*Q: What's the lowest/least you'll take?

A: I don't know; What's the most you'll pay?*

(or if I'm nicer,* "I'll tell you when you get here, but bring what I'm asking, just in case."*)

Money talks, and BS doesn't have bus fare; Just a mouth full of yap in the face of a flake.
- azsuprasm

Jeez, did I just type that? Harsh. In a month or so, I'll see it as someone's forum sig.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

I will raise you by a limbo pole!


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

My first ever wrist shot.

Tapa Tapa Talka Talka


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

It arrived a day earlier than expected, swapped the bracelet for a Clockwork Synergy strap for the time being (they have a blue suede strap that I think will go well with this watch). Thanks again HWA!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Amphion Modern on a Bond schmato from NSC


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

jdcooper said:


> My first ever wrist shot.
> 
> Tapa Tapa Talka Talka


Oh...got two random compliments on it yesterday in the space of 10 min. Nice job, Doc.

Not something I usually hear in general, let alone whatever watch I'm wearing.

Tapa Tapa Talka Talka


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jdcooper said:


> Oh...got two random compliments on it yesterday in the space of 10 min. Nice job, Doc.
> 
> Not something I usually hear in general, let alone whatever watch I'm wearing.
> 
> Tapa Tapa Talka Talka


Why would you usually hear "Nice job Doc", unless that's a name you commonly go by?


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

docvail said:


> Why would you usually hear "Nice job Doc", unless that's a name you commonly go by?


I'm not a doc, and if I were, I certainly wouldn't do a nice job.

But I can tell you a little something about pronouns and antecedents, if you like. 


Tapa Tapa Talka Talka


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

jdcooper said:


> But I can tell you a little something about pronouns and antecedents, if you like.


jdcooper, hwa. hwa, jdcooper.

Can I haz more grammar polize?


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

azsuprasm said:


> jdcooper, hwa. hwa, jdcooper.
> 
> Can I haz more grammar polize?


Polizei, my friend.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm down with pronouns and antecedents, but it's commas that remain at issue. It's not, "nice job doc." Instead, "nice job, doc." To borrow an illustration, there is a difference between, "Let's eat Grandma," and, "Let's eat, Grandma!"

Unless ... UNLESS ... you're typing on a device with only thumbs. Then, anything goes. Eatcher gramma if you like.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

hwa said:


> I'm down with pronouns and antecedents, but it's commas that remain at issue. It's not, "nice job doc." Instead, "nice job, doc." To borrow an illustration, there is a difference between, "Let's eat Grandma," and, "Let's eat, Grandma!"
> 
> Unless ... UNLESS ... you're typing on a device with only thumbs. Then, anything goes. Eatcher gramma if you like.


Eats, shoots, and leaves. 
Eats shoots and leaves.

One is a Panda. The other is not good dinner company.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

vmarks said:


> Eats, shoots, and leaves.
> Eats shoots and leaves.
> 
> One is a Panda. The other is not good dinner company.
> ...


I am, in fact, typing with only thumbs (while walking in a hotel). I have read both books you two reference. (You may be referencing just the sentences.)

Tapa Tapa Talka Talka


----------



## jdcooper (Aug 29, 2014)

jdcooper said:


> I am, in fact, typing with only thumbs (while walking in a hotel). I have read both books you two reference. (You may be referencing just the sentences.)
> 
> Tapa Tapa Talka Talka


Ah...comment got cut off and sent (in and out of wifi?).

Anyway,

Doc made a joke about my comment. His joke was based on deliberately misconstrueing the context. I like that kind of humor. I was just teasing back.

I even put a smiley face emoticon to convey that, as tone is so difficult for a lay person like me. If it offends, I can lay off posting in this thread.

(Also, I did use the comma properly, but hwa may not have been talking to me. At the same time, my use of capitalization and ellipses clearly shows that I'm down with textese as language).



jdcooper said:


> I am, in fact, typing with only thumbs (while walking in a hotel). I have read both books you two reference. (You may be referencing just the sentences.)
> 
> Tapa Tapa Talka Talka


Tapa Tapa Talka Talka


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

All in good fun!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Switch to phantom

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

jdcooper said:


> Ah...comment got cut off and sent (in and out of wifi?).
> 
> Anyway,
> 
> ...


No offense taken here! I thought it was all in fun.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Been wearing this a lot.










"Yo, this Tapatalk is the shizzle f'rizzle. Y'all gotta try some..."


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

You can just go ahead and send that my way. One less order you have to mess with later. ;-P



docvail said:


> Been wearing this a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Super excited for my Mint Azores, but I'm really wishing my budget would have allowed for an Antilles too. I'm really digging that champagne dial, and the full lume dial is super awesome too!


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

When Antilles/Azores were announced I declared to Doc, "You finally got me", and I put in a pre-order. Since then I've been eyeing the subs. Even though I have tons of divers, the dial textures, lumed inserts and crowns, etc., plus a probable quality upgrade compared to a lot of my collection intrigued me. Today a terrific deal on an Oberon popped up on F29. First Doc-watch inbound.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

tslewisz said:


> When Antilles/Azores were announced I declared to Doc, "You finally got me", and I put in a pre-order. Since then I've been eyeing the subs. Even though I have tons of divers, the dial textures, lumed inserts and crowns, etc., plus a probable quality upgrade compared to a lot of my collection intrigued me. Today a terrific deal on an Oberon popped up on F29. First Doc-watch inbound.


Beware, it's quite hard to stop at just one.

This just arrived for me today courtesy of F29 and a fabulous forummer from here on F71

















joins my Vintage Nacken Black, my Acionna, Cerberus and Orthos..and with a Vanilla Azores on pre-order.

I am also trying to stop myself eyeing the Barracuda and Amphion Vintage Blue sneak peeks we've been treated to

I may have developed a slight addiction...


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

HSSB said:


> I may have developed a slight addiction...


Your new Nacken looks fantastic. And, yes, it sounds like you might have a _slight_ addiction.

Cheers, Scott


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

tslewisz said:


> Your new Nacken looks fantastic. And, yes, it sounds like you might have a _slight_ addiction.
> 
> Cheers, Scott





tslewisz said:


> Your new Nacken looks fantastic. And, yes, it sounds like you might have a _slight_ addiction.
> 
> Cheers, Scott


Thanks - I *love* this Nacken. I justified getting it by thinking I'd keep either the vintage blue or the black, but there's enough difference in the character & look of each I'm going to keep the two

It all started courtesy of here and the Acionna, picked up from a forummer - so I kinda blame you all here on F71 in a way  . Just everything 'fits' & feels right on my wrist with these watches - I've cheaper ones, I've more expensive ones, I've others I love equally (e.g. my Deaumar Ensign or CW Trident), but when I go to the watch box & pick each day, there's something that pulls me to one of these & puts a grin on my face more often than anything else.

I think Doc adds a spot of pixie dust to the packaging or something - you buy one, and you are magically ensnared into getting more...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yeah. It's "pixie" dust...

"Yo, this Tapatalk is the shizzle f'rizzle. Y'all gotta try some..."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Full Lume Fever!










"Yo, this Tapatalk is the shizzle f'rizzle. Y'all gotta try some..."


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Why is it that I feel like Doc is fishing, and I'm one of the fish? Love that full lume. 

Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Amphion from Massdrop finally arrived today. 

I'm smitten.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Amphion from Massdrop finally arrived today.
> 
> I'm smitten.


Am I crazy? Why do I think you already had one from the pre-order?

"Yo, this Tapatalk is the shizzle f'rizzle. Y'all gotta try some..."


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> Am I crazy? Why do I think you already had one from the pre-order?
> 
> "Yo, this Tapatalk is the shizzle f'rizzle. Y'all gotta try some..."


You are mistaken. I preordered a red Orthos many moons ago.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> You are mistaken. I preordered a red Orthos many moons ago.


Could've sworn I saw a wrist shot of one from you.

Welp, time for the annual crazy test...

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Eagerly awaiting Amphion vintage blue. And giving a sidelong glance to the Scorpenes.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> Could've sworn I saw a wrist shot of one from you.
> 
> Welp, time for the annual crazy test...
> 
> Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


Adding it to my extensive collection of 5517 homages (which does not include a ginault)

The Amphion is in lieu of a Ginault for the lumed bezel & crown, 9015, thinness and lower price.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

I'm reposting from the other thread in case anyone missed it...


Iliyan said:


> Finally joined Instagram and naturally had to check on Janis Trading. Holy [email protected], I am even more excited about the Antilles, check out that sunburst!


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

I want my Antilles already. April, where are you!?


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Iliyan said:


> I want my Antilles already. April, where are you!?


this


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> Full Lume Fever!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you posted this specifically with the intent of "pushing" me into getting one to add next to the Azores I've already ordered...

...and it is working!!! I MUST RESIST!!! But it is so amazingly awesome!!! So hard to resist!!!


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

My Orthos is trying on a new pair of shoes:


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

Oberon lume 










Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Y'know if the Oberon removed the faux patina and had that green, I think it'd be a winner. Interesting and different.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Tanjecterly said:


> Y'know if the Oberon removed the faux patina and had that green, I think it'd be a winner. Interesting and different.


It's perfect just the way it is.










And the "faux patina" goes really well with cork.


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

Tanjecterly said:


> Y'know if the Oberon removed the faux patina and had that green, I think it'd be a winner. Interesting and different.





rpm1974 said:


> It's perfect just the way it is.
> 
> And the "faux patina" goes really well with cork.


No use trying to convince him. Tanjecterly mailed his Oberon to me today.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

First sub model to sell out - easy to see why, I think...


----------



## gdb1960 (Dec 23, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> It's perfect just the way it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+ like 1000!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

rpm1974 said:


> It's perfect just the way it is.


I think I have somewhat of a legit design question - maybe it's been answered before and i just missed it. On the Oberon as well as a Amphion Vintage - wouldn't the design be more coherent if the bezel lume colour (in daylight) matches the vintage lume on the dial and hands instead of a green/yellow shade? If it's a matter of looking too "bland" with the same colour lume throughout, what about using simple white lume on the bezel to match the minute markers?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Slant said:


> I think I have somewhat of a legit design question - maybe it's been answered before and i just missed it. On the Oberon as well as a Amphion Vintage - wouldn't the design be more coherent if the bezel lume colour (in daylight) matches the vintage lume on the dial and hands instead of a green/yellow shade? If it's a matter of looking too "bland" with the same colour lume throughout, what about using simple white lume on the bezel to match the minute markers?


I'm not Doc, but IIRC, the choices made were made to appease different tastes. That's why he made 8 models, and is about to make 5 more, I think. Some people like stuff NOT to match too closely. I'm one of them. For those who want everything to match, I'm pretty sure there is a model or more that does that. I had an Oberon prototype for a bit, and I really liked the variance in color and lume. I still kick myself that I didn't buy one. BUT I'm pretty sure I'm getting one of the new ones in the next round...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Slant said:


> I think I have somewhat of a legit design question - maybe it's been answered before and i just missed it. On the Oberon as well as a Amphion Vintage - wouldn't the design be more coherent if the bezel lume colour (in daylight) matches the vintage lume on the dial and hands instead of a green/yellow shade? If it's a matter of looking too "bland" with the same colour lume throughout, what about using simple white lume on the bezel to match the minute markers?





dmjonez said:


> I'm not Doc, but IIRC, the choices made were made to appease different tastes. That's why he made 8 models, and is about to make 5 more, I think. Some people like stuff NOT to match too closely. I'm one of them. For those who want everything to match, I'm pretty sure there is a model or more that does that. I had an Oberon prototype for a bit, and I really liked the variance in color and lume. I still kick myself that I didn't buy one. BUT I'm pretty sure I'm getting one of the new ones in the next round...


If you do a Google image search for the vintage Tudor snowflake subs, you'll see why I think Doc chose the colors he chose. Case in point:










The lumed areas patina differently than the non-lumed text and the bezel markers. The off-white markers of the Nth bezel were Superluminova C3, IIRC, and I believe the dial was a mix of C3 - that was an effort to get the green lume to match all around. I think the end result is pretty spot on with many of the vintage pics I see in my Instagram feed and on the web.

Oops! Wrong paste-job there. Here's the Tudor I meant to post.










I'll leave that Santa Cruz pic in the post... because waffle.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Slant said:


> I think I have somewhat of a legit design question - maybe it's been answered before and i just missed it. On the Oberon as well as a Amphion Vintage - wouldn't the design be more coherent if the bezel lume colour (in daylight) matches the vintage lume on the dial and hands instead of a green/yellow shade? If it's a matter of looking too "bland" with the same colour lume throughout, what about using simple white lume on the bezel to match the minute markers?


Not a question with a short answer...

We looked at using the vintage colored lume on all the bezel markers.

I didn't like how it looked in the illustrations, so we went another direction.

If you look at the bezel pip, that is vintage lume. Notice the color doesn't precisely match the dial and hands. That's because of the difference in underlying materials. Even if we wanted to use the vintage lume on the bezel, it wouldn't have been a precise match.

The bezel lume on the v.1 protos was C1. It looks white, but glows green. As lume goes, it's not very bright. People complain about lume that isn't very bright.

That left C3 and BG W9.

BG W9 looks white, but glows blue, which wouldn't match the dial/hands, and isn't as bright as C3. I didn't think it would look right.

The vintage lume on the dial and hands glows green, like C3, which is the brightest, and which I thought would look best, so they got C3.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

In brightest day, in blackest night,

No watch funds shall escape Doc's sight.

Let those who worship evil's might

Beware my power--Green Oberons's light!



jonathanp77 said:


> Oberon lume
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Capt Obvious (Jul 21, 2014)

This may have been asked, but have the 5 new models been revealed yet? If not a no will suffice. I'm asking this way so as to not annoy anybody.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Capt Obvious said:


> This may have been asked, but have the 5 new models been revealed yet? If not a no will suffice. I'm asking this way so as to not annoy anybody.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


4 models have been revealed with images.
I will update when I find the page number.

EDIT: Pg. 93 has pics of 3 of the new watches not including Santa Fe or Barracuda.
Pg. 59 is the official announcement for the new NTH Sub variants.


----------



## Capt Obvious (Jul 21, 2014)

ConfusedOne said:


> 4 models have been revealed with images.
> I will update when I find the page number.
> 
> EDIT: Pg. 93 has pics of 3 of the new watches not including Santa Fe or Barracuda.
> Pg. 59 is the official announcement for the new NTH Sub variants.


Thank you

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Capt Obvious (Jul 21, 2014)

Now that I've seen the new ones so far... I think I'll pass.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Moar pics!









Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This just happened...

https://www.wristwatchreview.com/20...nd-azores-take-it-to-the-limit-one-more-time/


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> This just happened...
> 
> https://www.wristwatchreview.com/20...nd-azores-take-it-to-the-limit-one-more-time/












Gets me every time.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> Gets me every time.


Yup. We were definitely trying to capture as much of that vintage IWC Aquatimer (and Hamilton Cape-Horn) mojo as we could, while injecting some new life into the design, but hopefully without wrecking it.

The vintage IWC didn't have chamfered lugs. The Tropics case is somewhat like a mix of the vintage and the modern IWC Aquatimer, which does have them.

Hands on the Antilles are slightly different - tapered, versus straight on the IWC. Hour indices are very similar.

The vintage bezel, and even most modern internal bezels are sloped inward, with just the 12-hour mark lumed, if there's any lume at all. Our bezel is flat on top, all markers lumed, more like the Maurice Lacroix Pontos.

As you pointed out, we went with the everyday functionality of a 12-hour bezel over the more diver-oriented 60 minute bezel.

The primary fonts used on the dials and bezels of both the Antilles and Azores are original/unique to the Tropics. One of the guys on our design team cooked them up special. But I liked their angularity, how it echoes some of the fonts used on the vintage compressors.

I appreciate your not only mentioning the little details, but recognizing the effort put into getting as close as we could to the vintage look. I like that your reviews will frequently provide the historical context and inspiration for the NTH models.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> This just happened...
> 
> https://www.wristwatchreview.com/20...nd-azores-take-it-to-the-limit-one-more-time/


Very nice review. I'm glad I jumped in on the pre-order! Is it April yet?!?!


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

The regrets I have are not citing the Hamilton, although it seemed slightly further afield with its bigger indices and hands, the Maurice Lacroix for the fully lumed bezel, or the white dialed IWC for the fully luminous dial Antilles. 

You always get the fonts right. The O in Oberon was outstanding. 

What I really appreciate is that's it's as if you were answering the question, 'what would have happened if the 812AD had been in continuous production, what would have changed, without losing what makes it what it is?' 

Beveled lugs. Solid end links. Fully luminous. The solid link bracelet instead of the old folded links. This is how you do it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Ramer864 said:


> Looking forward to getting the Nacken Modern in my hands soon, and seeing what Doc has up his sleeve for the next release! kid animal - kid animal


You won't regret it.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

vmarks said:


> Gets me every time.


Super review, brother vmarks. |> |> |>


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

Fantastic review,
thanks Doc for the additional info, always nice to have your insights...

I'm SO happy I pre-ordered the black version of the Antilles, the wait is killing me !

Looking at the picture I have noticed that the second hand is a bit shorter / unaligned with the dial markers (where it seemed perfectly aligned on the IWC)
Is it a misleading perspective from the photo or is it actually the case, shorter second hand being intentional ?


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Oh yes, this is going to be good.


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

40mm said:


> Fantastic review,
> thanks Doc for the additional info, always nice to have your insights...
> 
> I'm SO happy I pre-ordered the black version of the Antilles, the wait is killing me !
> ...


Second hand has a tip one the end. Look closely at the picture.

Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

40mm said:


> Fantastic review,
> thanks Doc for the additional info, always nice to have your insights...
> 
> I'm SO happy I pre-ordered the black version of the Antilles, the wait is killing me !
> ...


My bad light. The hands are silver and extend further than you see here- you're only seeing the lume, not the silver surround and the tail extending to the end of the minute track.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



vmarks said:


> My bad light. The hands are silver and extend further than you see here- you're only seeing the lume, not the silver surround and the tail extending to the end of the minute track.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk












I didn't use this image because I wasn't happy with it, but it does show the hand length better. I hope it helps.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

It does ! Thanks a lot
Now there is another detail that bugs me 
It seems the second hand's bottom edge starts a bit lower than the bottom of the markers - they're not completely aligned.

the hands and markers seem to have a different lume color but I'm sure that's just the picture


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

40mm said:


> It does ! Thanks a lot
> Now there is another detail that bugs me
> It seems the second hand's bottom edge starts a bit lower than the bottom of the markers - they're not completely aligned.
> 
> ...


You have to keep in mind that these are prototypes, especially with regard to lume color and my bad light. In person it feels right to me. The lume in the hour markers is thin and tastefully subtle no matter how you approach it.

It's true that the square doesn't align with the end of the hour marker but it doesn't on the IWC either. Theirs was a rectangle with no tail, pushed all the way to the periphery. It started further out than the hour marker. Seems weird.

Remember, you want to use the seconds, so you may want it to differentiate itself a little.


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

You're 100% true, and thanks for sharing the picture
I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing that the second hand differs, it's just that I personnally prefer it aligns with this type of markers 

Looking again at IWC though - recent aquatimer at least, I can see it completely aligned.
Looking again at NTH with another photo, it seems the top of the second hand is aligned, it's only the bottom that isn't


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



40mm said:


> You're 100% true, and thanks for sharing the picture
> I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing that the second hand differs, it's just that I personnally prefer it aligns with this type of markers
> 
> Looking again at IWC though - recent aquatimer at least, I can see it completely aligned.
> ...


Look, dig up the 812ad aquatimer, not the current one. Comparing a vintage homage with a new model isn't the right comparison to make.

You have limited choices here. You can have a rectangle with the correct size and proportions and have it without a tail, pushed to the outer edge to align with the hour marker. Or, you can keep the proportions but shrink the rectangle ridiculously small as IWC have done in the modern aquatimer. Or, you can say, 'without a tail, I can't accurately read seconds on the minute track,' add a tail and move it inboard and now it no longer aligns with the hour marker. Doc made one choice. Maybe you might have done it differently. But this is the watch we have.


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Do let us know when and if you'd like to sell your pre-order spot. I'm sure you'll have no problem finding someone here to take it off your hands at the pre-order pricing.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Chris Vail rules.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

40mm said:


> You're 100% true, and thanks for sharing the picture
> I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing that the second hand differs, it's just that I personnally prefer it aligns with this type of markers
> 
> Looking again at IWC though - recent aquatimer at least, I can see it completely aligned.
> ...


You're assuming we have unlimited choices for hands, and unlimited time to screw around trying them all to find the one that looks better than all the others.

We have neither.

We're choosing hands out of the handsets supplier's catalog based on style and total length from the center post to the tip. All we get is a photograph (and not a good one) and total length. They don't tell us how long the tip of the hand is, how long the lume patch is, or how wide.

From just the picture and the total length, we have to extrapolate how the hands will look when mounted, and choose hands based on our best guess.

Even if I was inclined to tell my factory I wanted them to try every available choice to find the perfect one (and I'm not inclined), it's not like there are dozens from which to choose. We may find three, maybe four hands that we like for a design, and our first choice is always just that - our FIRST choice - due to its length, width and style. More often than not, the other options wouldn't work as well.

Custom hands are no longer an option. I've done custom handsets, and they always end up causing production delays.

Sometimes we get lucky, or we'll modify a dial design so everything lines up better. Sometimes everything will line up in such a way to avoid triggering anyone's OCD, but there's no rulebook which says the lume patch of the seconds hand has to perfectly align with the hour indices in some way.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

40mm said:


> You're 100% true, and thanks for sharing the picture
> I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing that the second hand differs, it's just that I personnally prefer it aligns with this type of markers
> 
> Looking again at IWC though - recent aquatimer at least, I can see it completely aligned.
> ...


Now that I'm on my computer, instead of just my phone, and in addition to my previous answer...

Just eye-balling it here, but I don't think the seconds hand on the IWC aligns as perfectly on both ends as you're suggesting. It looks to me like the tip of the seconds hand doesn't go all the way to the end of the seconds/minute marks on the dial, and the inner edge of the lume patch actually sits inboard of the edge of the hour index.

I think it may depend on which model year Aquatimer you're looking at. I've looked at that model a lot, and I've seen some where the alignment looks spot-on, others where the outer edge of the lume patch sits on one or the other side of the outer boarder of the indices. If the pics of both watches were to the same scale, I'd bet the alignments are fairly similar.

The design goal never was and never will be to try to match the alignment of the seconds hand to the hour markers. We look to make each hand's length relate to its designated markers, so if you look at the HOUR hand, you'll see it aligns with the HOUR indices. The minute and seconds hands are appropriately sized for the minute/seconds track.

It seems like many of the newer model Aquatimers dispense with the rectangular patch altogether, instead using an arrow, the base of which neatly traces a printed circle on the dial (or close to it):









Where have I also seen that?









That's how you do precision-matching of dial design and handset. The tip of the hour hand perfectly traces that circle, as does the base of the lume patch on the seconds hand, and that circle also marks the outer tip of the lume patch on the minute hand.

Candidly, 2 out of 3 of those are just very happy accidents. We positioned that circle and sized the hour markers based on the length of the hour hand we chose. The fact that the base of the seconds' lume arrow and the lume patch on the minute hand also trace it is just an example of how sometimes things just fall perfectly into place.

One thing I do notice about the modern Aquatimer - IMO, the minute hand on the IWC in your pic is too short. If you look at the older, vintage models, the minute hand extends to the edge of the dial, as it does on the Antilles.

Regardless of all that, and whatever you think about the IWC's or your OCD's, my earlier answer stands. Unless there's something truly awful about a component choice, it's very unusual that we'll look to replace it once we see assembled prototypes, after spending all the time we did just to find it in the first place.

I'm not exaggerating - AT ALL - when I say it can take me days of scouring the supplier's website to find the handsets I'm looking for with each new design. Nor am I exaggerating when I say we typically only find a small handful which MIGHT work well, and typically the one we choose first is the best choice, so monkeying about with changing our minds later on just isn't an option, again, unless we see that we simply made the "wrong" choice.


----------



## skylinegtr_34 (May 29, 2015)

Total symmetry is boring. There should be some distraction to attract attention. Everyone would like Charlize Theron, it is very obvious why and not interesting. You can spend I life time to understand "why I like Eva Green better" and stay curious.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Damn, I don't even get the problem. Only thing I can relate to is Eva Green > Charlize Theron


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Deleted.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I really like the blue and vanilla Azores below.



docvail said:


> View attachment 10941330
> 
> 
> .


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

Thanks Doc,

I won't lie, I AM being OCD, I know it ... this is what happens when you fall in love with watches I guess 

That being said, I'm extremely excited to receive my Antilles - I think it will look gorgeous.

The details and professionalism you put in your answers makes me a NTH fan a bit more each time.
Watches wouldn't be without watchmakers.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone interested, I was just told that WatchRecon has just added NTH to the drop-down list of brands, which I think means whatever algorithms are working behind the scenes now recognize that as a brand name in their searches, and so anyone looking to pick up a used Sub can create an alert for the brand.


----------



## Maxy (Aug 15, 2011)

docvail said:


> For anyone interested, I was just told that WatchRecon has just added NTH to the drop-down list of brands, which I think means whatever algorithms are working behind the scenes now recognize that as a brand name in their searches, and so anyone looking to pick up a used Sub can create an alert for the brand.


They did it as 'Nth', if possible reach out to them to update that as 'NTH' - should be an easy update!


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Maxy said:


> They did it as 'Nth', if possible reach out to them to update that as 'NTH' - should be an easy update!


If they're really on their game it should be not-case-sensitive. You should be able to type nTh and get NTH nth NtH etc as results.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Just bookmark as NTH and you're good to go.


----------



## Maxy (Aug 15, 2011)

vmarks said:


> If they're really on their game it should be not-case-sensitive. You should be able to type nTh and get NTH nth NtH etc as results.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Tanjecterly said:


> Just bookmark as NTH and you're good to go.


Yeah yeah... I'm aware and its not about the search option which will work fine anyways... but the drop-view option of the brand having the name as 'Nth' instead of NTH (like how IWC shows up).










Anyways it was a minor suggestion to Doc to make his brand name correctly displayed and not really the point of discussion with rest.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Maxy said:


> Anyways it was a minor suggestion to Doc to make his brand name correctly displayed and not really the point of discussion with rest.


Count on me to miss the point!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Careful, brothers, if commas get us in trouble, capitalization surely will be our downfall. Just keep the damn "quotation marks" out of it, mmmkay?


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Thanks, Doc.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Maxy said:


> They did it as 'Nth', if possible reach out to them to update that as 'NTH' - should be an easy update!


Sammy, the guy who created WatchRecon, appears to be a genius (literally, not figuratively, and definitely not sarcastically). My hunch is that his programming isn't case-sensitive.

How could it be? His site turns up sales listings from multiple sites, and infinite users. He can't control how people spell or type the names of any brand or model, so I imagine he's built in some flexibility, to allow for variable spelling, use of case, etc.

Regardless, I mentioned it in my thank you message to him, just to confirm there won't be any issues, regardless of whether people spell it as NTH or Nth in their sales listings.

If he wants to change it in his drop down menu, great. If not, I don't plan to break his chops about it. WatchRecon doesn't earn him a dime of revenue, and he pays to support it out of his own pocket, making it available as a service to the world. It would be bad form for me to get my pants in a twist about such a small discrepancy.

My hope was he'd add the brand to his list, in order to make my customers' listings easier for other people to find, and he's done that.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

So, I just got a leather nato from a fellow forum member. I bought it to put on the Santa Cruz. It is my first leather nato, and I'm not sure my feelings on natos in general yet, but I'm experimenting with a few different ones on a few different watches (you may have seen the orange one on my Orthos). In any case, allow me to share my "noob" mistake / learning:

I've only had minimal experience with natos, and so far, only with the standard nylon ones. The nylon ones slip very nicely and easily between the watch and the spring bars. Not exactly the same with leather ones. I slipped the strap between the spring bar and the watch and slid the watch down into place, and repeat for the other side. Then I put on my lovely new strap on my very much loved Santa Cruz, only to find that I scraped a nice trail down the entire length of the strap. I took a picture below that only shows a small amount of it (I didn't feel like embarrassing myself too much just yet).

Anyway, I'll leave it on for a while so that I can see how it feels and how much I like it or not. If I like it, I'll look to replace it with another one, but probably a few shades lighter.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kendalw3 said:


> So, I just got a leather nato from a fellow forum member. I bought it to put on the Santa Cruz. It is my first leather nato, and I'm not sure my feelings on natos in general yet, but I'm experimenting with a few different ones on a few different watches (you may have seen the orange one on my Orthos). In any case, allow me to share my "noob" mistake / learning:
> 
> I've only had minimal experience with natos, and so far, only with the standard nylon ones. The nylon ones slip very nicely and easily between the watch and the spring bars. Not exactly the same with leather ones. I slipped the strap between the spring bar and the watch and slid the watch down into place, and repeat for the other side. Then I put on my lovely new strap on my very much loved Santa Cruz, only to find that I scraped a nice trail down the entire length of the strap. I took a picture below that only shows a small amount of it (I didn't feel like embarrassing myself too much just yet).
> 
> ...


Curved spring bars or install the bar on top of thicker straps.

No worries I recently did the same scratching the leather, but I used evoo or leather conditioner to rehydrate the scratch. It helps a bit.

Oh and it looks nice btw!?
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

^^ Thanks!


----------



## bobski (Oct 13, 2013)

Hey guys, I have been out for a wee while. Wondering if I have missed the pre-order for the new round of subs (in particular the Nacken Modern Blue). I have looked in both threads but have not been able to find it.

Can anyone help me out with that?


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Hasn't happened yet. I don't have a date for when it will.... I'll defer that to Doc!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Oops


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

None of the dates or pre-order prices for the Subs 2.0 are set yet.

I'm hoping to get the prototypes for the Barracuda and Santa Fe soon, now that Chinese New Year has ended. When I do, I'll snap some pics, send them for photography, and look to finalize the pre-order start date.

There are several complicating factors I need to settle before I do. 

1. All the common components for the next batch of Subs are already made and delivered - cases, crystals, crowns, bracelets, movements, and bezel insert blanks. All we have to do is tell the factory how many of each version to make, so they can get the hands and dials, and mark the bezels appropriately. 

This is totally foreign ground to me. I'm used to a 1-month pre-order, then a 4-5 month production cycle. I'm not certain how long this will take, but I assume it's going to be shorter. I like to be able to tell people a target delivery date when they're pre-ordering, obviously. I think most people would expect it.

Yes, I can ask my factory, but no matter what they'll tell me, I'm leery of relying on that, setting a target delivery date, then blowing past it because of some unforseen delay, which always seems to happen whenever I set an end-date without padding the estimate. It's hard to figure the timing when I don't know how long the pre-order will even last. It could be a day, a week, or a month before we've got enough to start production.

2. Assuming it is a shorter cycle, I think that should be reflected in the pre-order price. You're not going to be waiting 6 months for delivery, more like 3 months, if I had to guess. I have to figure out the pre-order pricing, but to do that, I need to figure out the timing.

3. I've been trying to avoid over-lapping production cycles, or starting a pre-order for the next model before delivering the last model, so that people waiting on a pre-order can use their rewards points to pre-order the next model. I may have to re-think that. 

I've got several projects in development, all of which I want to happen this year, and I may not be able to delay the pre-orders of the Subs on delivery of the Tropics. Yes, I can mark all the pre-orders as "shipped", so the points will accrue, but that creates a lot of other problems in my system, and a ton of extra work for me. 

People may have to suck it up and understand I can't lock my business into a rigid pattern of two production cycles per year. Hopefully it doesn't piss too many people off. 

There are a few other things going on that I'm not getting into publicly, but suffice to say, I'm trying to move a lot of pieces around the board to make all my plans for this year come together.


----------



## 5-Oclock-Somewhere (Feb 4, 2017)

These are nice watches. If they ever go full-on sub homage like the Steinhart Ocean 1, but in 40mm, with Mercedes hands and a smooth black dial, I will be all over one. I just don't care for the textured dial. Nice job though!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Very interested to see what else you have cooking up. :think:


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

5-Oclock-Somewhere said:


> These are nice watches. If they ever go full-on sub homage like the Steinhart Ocean 1, but in 40mm, with Mercedes hands and a smooth black dial, I will be all over one. I just don't care for the textured dial. Nice job though!


Oberon or näcken modern come closest. Honeycomb dial or flat dial in snowflake.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Same here. You got my attention.



mplsabdullah said:


> Very interested to see what else you have cooking up. :think:


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

So Doc, care to tease us with a few drawings or details on the other watches you keep hinting at? 

Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> So Doc, care to tease us with a few drawings or details on the other watches you keep hinting at?
> 
> Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


Nope.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## 5-Oclock-Somewhere (Feb 4, 2017)

vmarks said:


> Oberon or näcken modern come closest. Honeycomb dial or flat dial in snowflake.


Yes. I've seen the Nacken. I'm not really into the snowflake. However, that watch with a sub type dial and Mercedes hands would be wicked. There is no disguising the fact that it is a sub (insert word). They might as well go for it with the right indices, four lines of script at 6, and the correct hands. Like I said, I would have to think hard not to buy one. A size correct sub clone that I could feel easy using as a beater. Awesome in my book.


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

Thanks so much for the update Doc,
Quick question, will the new batch of subs have different components / specs than the current models ?
Also do you plan to drastically increase production volume this year compared to 2016 ?



docvail said:


> None of the dates or pre-order prices for the Subs 2.0 are set yet.
> 
> I'm hoping to get the prototypes for the Barracuda and Santa Fe soon, now that Chinese New Year has ended. When I do, I'll snap some pics, send them for photography, and look to finalize the pre-order start date.
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



40mm said:


> Thanks so much for the update Doc,
> Quick question, will the new batch of subs have different components / specs than the current models ?


Nope.



40mm said:


> Also do you plan to drastically increase production volume this year compared to 2016 ?


Nope.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

5-Oclock-Somewhere said:


> These are nice watches. If they ever go full-on sub homage like the Steinhart Ocean 1, but in 40mm, with Mercedes hands and a smooth black dial, I will be all over one. I just don't care for the textured dial. Nice job though!


Same here. I don't want a Rolex clone, I want those features made my Doc because I know the quality and passion will be there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> There are a few other things going on that I'm not getting into publicly, but suffice to say, I'm trying to move a lot of pieces around the board to make all my plans for this year come together.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

The dude abides


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Taking a hiatus from IG and social media for a bit, but couldn't resist post this here for Flieger Friday.

I love the contrast of this combo.










"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG @watchexposure


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> So Doc, care to tease us with a few drawings or details on the other watches you keep hinting at?
> 
> Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


In no particular order:

+ A semi-retro-inspired diver, but an original design, more toolish and diver-ish than anything we've done previously, probably to be given the NTH badge, even though it's not really an "homage" to the same degree the Subs or Tropics are.

+ A couple of re-workings of previous L&H models, one of which is a potential "Limited Edition". Both would stay under the L&H banner.

+ Some modestly-sized basic 3-handers, almost certainly NTH-badged.

Except for the LE, everything above is pretty certain to make it into the production pipeline, though the timing and sequence on them have not been decided. The LE is dependent on a couple of variables still to be ironed out.

Conceivably, MAYBE there's another version or versions of the NTH Sub to be made. There are one or two "dark horse" ideas that didn't make it into the most recent design discussions.

In addition to the above, project Hydra is always trying to resurface. It's definitely a L&H model, not NTH. It's one I'm not in any rush to do. I still need to go back and clean up the design a bit, and figure out if it's even possible to make it, and if so, can I make the "business case" for it (?). We'll see. Someday, if I give up the idea of making it, I'll publish the design drafts, so people can at least stop wondering what I was doing.

There are a couple of other ideas I've been thinking about, like maybe a "tacticool" model, perhaps under a new brand, and maybe a ladies model (though that is an idea that's been considered and rejected at least a dozen times in the last two years). Sometimes I think about doing a "dressy diver".

There was talk in the Micro Brands group on Facebook recently about a project watch, and someone put my name forward as a candidate to make it. I have no idea if it will ever happen, and if it does, the odds are someone else will make it, but it could be another model to squeeze into the production calendar, somewhere.

*PLEASE *- no one should take this as an invitation to start lobbying me to make this or that, either here, or privately, be it through email or PM. With the Tropics, the next batch (or two) of Subs, the diver, the 3-handers, and the updated L&H models, I've got enough to fill my production queue for the next 18 months, at least. I have too many projects to develop as it is, I am NOT looking for more ideas at this time.

And yes, I mean it. Every "suggestion" email I get starts off the same basic way, "Doc, I know you don't like people pestering you to make stuff, but..."

Stop. Just. Stop.

Trust me, if it's a good idea, odds are it's occurred to me, or been brought to my attention already. And if I'm not making it, there's a high likelihood someone else is, or an equally high likelihood there's a good reason it's not being made.


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Sometimes I think about doing a "dressy diver".


Thinkings is fine. As long as it's only thinking. And only sometimes! lol

A more toolish diver has me excited though!

I'm also guessing you are also due prototype of the Barracuda soon, and that excites the .... outtakes me! I just got my hands on a Nacken Modern and cannot wait to get money down on your root beer!

Btw, also, thanks for sharing so many of your thoughts and really giving customers an insight to the business side of the operation. It really does make a difference and count for something! I'm guessing you must be single. Or at least not have kids. Or else please tell me your time management and multitasking secrets!


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

docvail said:


> In no particular order:
> 
> + A semi-retro-inspired diver, but an original design, more toolish and diver-ish than anything we've done previously, probably to be given the NTH badge, even though it's not really an "homage" to the same degree the Subs or Tropics are.
> 
> ...


This thread should have been started with: "I know it will regret saying this but ..."

Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

EL_GEEk said:


> Taking a hiatus from IG and social media for a bit, but couldn't resist post this here for Flieger Friday.
> 
> I love the contrast of this combo.
> 
> ...


I keep considering trading my Nacken Vintage Blue for a Scorpene but then decide not to. Then I see a pic like this and it gets me thinking again.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Enjoying my new NTH


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I really like this one. It's a great picture and makes me want to go to WatchRecon and check out the ones that are for sale. Unfortunately the two for sale are without date which I must have.



EL_GEEk said:


> Taking a hiatus from IG and social media for a bit, but couldn't resist post this here for Flieger Friday.
> 
> I love the contrast of this combo.
> 
> ...


----------



## 5-Oclock-Somewhere (Feb 4, 2017)

docvail said:


> ...And yes, I mean it. Every "suggestion" email I get starts off the same basic way, "Doc, I know you don't like people pestering you to make stuff, but..." Stop. Just. Stop. Trust me, if it's a good idea, odds are it's occurred to me...


Hmm. I get that the internet is a hodge podge of noise sometimes, but a few things come to mind. First, these WUS WIS are the most likely repeat customers you will ever have. The rest are one-offs. Second, you don't have to be here at all, you are here to gin up business. At the same time you are being intolerant with the same customers you came here to woo. Finally, business 101 (where I come from) states that the customer is always right... even when they are not. It is much more polite and savvy to ignore them, than school them and come off as supercilious. Respectfully offered.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

:asses the popcorn::


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Yup!


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Doc, Thanks for the long version. I was almost happy with 'Nope", as I didn't have to worry. Then you go and give a great long, detailed answer that has my interest piqued. 
I'm looking forward to seeing what comes our way. I'm very interested in the LE, if it's what I suspect it is.

i'm amazed that anyone would think to send you their ideas. I think I have a great idea for a series of watches that would suite the NTH brand, but since you have so many good ideas on your own, I don't think you'd need it. 

I have a couple of your L&H watches that I am patiently waiting for to come up for sale on F29. 

Looking forward to seeing what you have come up with...


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Keefy said:


> It really does make a difference and count for something! I'm guessing you must be single. Or at least not have kids. Or else please tell me your time management and multitasking secrets!


He's married. With kids. Doesn't sleep much.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

SteamJ said:


> I keep considering trading my Nacken Vintage Blue for a Scorpene but then decide not to. Then I see a pic like this and it gets me thinking again.


Thanks. Do it J. The Scorpene is a unique one in my collection. My stable is filling up with field/pilot watches lately, and this one definitely adds some variation, staying with the theme. 


Tanjecterly said:


> I really like this one. It's a great picture and makes me want to go to WatchRecon and check out the ones that are for sale. Unfortunately the two for sale are without date which I must have.


Thanks. I also like a date complication, however the clean dial on this one looks better IMO.

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG @watchexposure


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

5-Oclock-Somewhere said:


> Hmm. I get that the internet is a hodge podge of noise sometimes, but a few things come to mind. First, these WUS WIS are the most likely repeat customers you will ever have. The rest are one-offs. Second, you don't have to be here at all, you are here to gin up business. At the same time you are being intolerant with the same customers you came here to woo. Finally, business 101 (where I come from) states that the customer is always right... even when they are not. It is much more polite and savvy to ignore them, than school them and come off as supercilious. Respectfully offered.


Not sure I entirely agree. Part of his "shtick" is being to the point. Plus, I am certain he gets overwhelmed with relatively stupid requests, and one way to squelch that somewhat is to put it out there. Also not certain the customer is always right. I get inundated with calls on a daily basis. I have over 10,000 clients, and if every one only called me JUST ONE TIME every YEAR, that would be over 32 calls every DAY (we are open 312 days per year). If each call only lasted 6 minutes (and trust me its often WAY longer than that), then I'd have well over 3 hours of JUST calls every day. (and trust me most clients call MUCH more than JUST ONCE every Year) I cant physically do it on top of my regular work day. I have had to find creative ways to minimize customer contacts, otherwise I'd be paralyzed with communication and get nothing accomplished...


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

i was about to pull you back from the fire when i saw your join date...'wait, he's new, don't vaporize him!!!' then as i thought some more, concluded...some lessons must be learned firsthand...just stand over there for a moment...a little to the left, a bit more...ok...what's that light in the distance coming towards you? ah, don't worry about it... 



5-Oclock-Somewhere said:


> Hmm. I get that the internet is a hodge podge of noise sometimes, but a few things come to mind. First, these WUS WIS are the most likely repeat customers you will ever have. The rest are one-offs. Second, you don't have to be here at all, you are here to gin up business. At the same time you are being intolerant with the same customers you came here to woo. Finally, business 101 (where I come from) states that the customer is always right... even when they are not. It is much more polite and savvy to ignore them, than school them and come off as supercilious. Respectfully offered.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

The Watcher said:


> i was about to pull you back from the fire when i saw your join date...'wait, he's new, don't vaporize him!!!' then as i thought some more, concluded...some lessons must be learned firsthand...just stand over there for a moment...a little to the left, a bit more...ok...what's that light in the distance coming towards you? ah, don't worry about it...


ha! that's great. I didn't even look at the join date.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

5-Oclock-Somewhere said:


> Hmm. I get that the internet is a hodge podge of noise sometimes, but a few things come to mind. First, these WUS WIS are the most likely repeat customers you will ever have. The rest are one-offs. Second, you don't have to be here at all, you are here to gin up business. At the same time you are being intolerant with the same customers you came here to woo. Finally, business 101 (where I come from) states that the customer is always right... even when they are not. It is much more polite and savvy to ignore them, than school them and come off as supercilious. Respectfully offered.


Supercilious. Hah! Put down the mirror and stop talking to yourself!


----------



## Capt Obvious (Jul 21, 2014)

Keefy said:


> Thinkings is fine. As long as it's only thinking. And only sometimes! lol
> 
> A more toolish diver has me excited though!
> 
> ...


Nope he is married with 2 kiddos. Livin' la vida loco.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Actually its like those old kung fu movies where the guy wants to learn so he goes to the temple. The master doesn't let him in and says the guy is not serious so the guy sits on the steps for days getting rained on, sweltering in the sun, eating thrown out rice, etc. until the master deems him fit to learn. 

So the trick is to send so many emails with various ideas, hit him up on here with ideas, hit facebook, etc and eventually he will see you are for real and take you into the fold. The key is don't give up. Live your dreams. Believe you can fly. Eat Wheaties. And constantly listen to that song from Karate Kid "Your the best around! Nothings gonna ever keep you down..." :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I feel very strongly that every message I get from someone who thought enough to send it to me deserves a well-considered, polite, appreciative and thoughtful response. 

I get dozens of emails and private messages through social media each day, almost all requiring my attention, some quite urgently, and as a one-man show, it's hard for me to keep up. 

But I make the time, and appreciate people understanding my situation - wife and two kids who also deserve my attention, plus the demands of a business which needs to support itself, them, and me.

I also hate to disappoint people by saying "no", and I dread having to explain to people why I'm saying it. I'm not so lacking in empathy that I'm oblivious to how hard it can be to hear your idea get shot down.

And while I'm sure it's probably my own mental garbage, I do honestly fear the scenario of a WIS latching onto an idea, and me, and not letting go, progressively becoming more emotionally invested in the outcome, which will inevitably lead to their disappointment, which in turn can easily lead to their anger towards me.

I know, it sounds crazy, until you've been here four years, sold a few thousand watches, answered thousands of emails, dealt with a few dozen insane situations, seen fans turn to haters/trolls, been threatened with violence, had people trash your reputation, read vicious lies told about you, seen people encouraged to go prying into your personal life...

Yes, sometimes I can sound a little defensive of the thin, invisible boundary I try to maintain between my already jam-packed days and the avalanche of suggestions/requests/complaints/questions which could easily overwhelm me if I were to ignore the boundary, and give people the idea that I have an infinite capacity to accept, assess, and respond to everyone's input, giving everyone who messages me on a whim a well-considered, polite, appreciative and thoughtful response.

Yes, you're doing me a favor by holding off on sending me that message, or making the suggestion to me here. Yes, I realize some may think me rude for asking for my time to be respected in that way. But not responding to the customers who need my support, or being there for my family, are not viable alternatives.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I really appreciate Doc being here. There are only a handful of manufacturers here, and of those, only a smaller group even bother to post. I've learned quite a bit from all his knowledge, and have witnessed firsthand most of what he describes above: "you won't make MY watch?!?, I will make you rue the day we crossed paths..." Seriously.

Besides, he's funny as heck.

PS one more thing: The customer is NOT always right. "Listen Captain, I'm one of your passengers, and that weather doesn't look too bad to me, I demand we go anyway"


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Meanie. :-(

Michael Rolex invites me over to his cottage for tea and crumpets all the time to discuss design ideas. 

Matter of fact I just split a pizza 2 days ago with Randy Seiko while we discussed the pros and cons of hardlex.


----------



## Maxy (Aug 15, 2011)

Maxy said:


> They did it as 'Nth', if possible reach out to them to update that as 'NTH' - should be an easy update!





Maxy said:


> Yeah yeah... I'm aware and its not about the search option which will work fine anyways... but the drop-view option of the brand having the name as 'Nth' instead of NTH (like how IWC shows up).
> 
> 
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> Regardless, I mentioned it in my thank you message to him, just to confirm there won't be any issues, regardless of whether people spell it as NTH or Nth in their sales listings.
> 
> If he wants to change it in his drop down menu, great. If not, I don't plan to break his chops about it.


Just update an update. NTH appears correctly in Watchrecon now.


----------



## 5-Oclock-Somewhere (Feb 4, 2017)

docvail said:


> I feel very strongly that every message I get from someone who thought enough to send it to me deserves a well-considered, polite, appreciative and thoughtful response.
> 
> I get dozens of emails and private messages through social media each day, almost all requiring my attention, some quite urgently, and as a one-man show, it's hard for me to keep up.
> 
> ...


Now _that_ is business 101. It is a delicate balance to maintain the hand that feeds you at bay while you create, and still keep it coming back for more. Those who understand this succeed. Those who don't hire a business manager. No one forces us to open a business, but once it is open the ancillary responsibilities are sometimes more important than the primary ones. If your client base comes to the conclusion that you don't respect them they will simply move on, especially in an industry as saturated with product as this one. However, if they feel included in the process, even if it is an illusion, they will follow you. If you haven't figured it out by reading the inane posts from members who think they have a clue, WIS are pretty fickle sometimes. Good luck with your endeavors.


----------



## Noni51 (Jun 22, 2015)

Hi all!

Does anyone have any pictures of the Cerberus? How do you find the watch? I was set on a 38/40mm as 42mm seems a bit large for my wrist.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

There is a search feature in this website.



Noni51 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> Does anyone have any pictures of the Cerberus? How do you find the watch? I was set on a 38/40mm as 42mm seems a bit large for my wrist.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Noni51 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> Does anyone have any pictures of the Cerberus? How do you find the watch? I was set on a 38/40mm as 42mm seems a bit large for my wrist.


It was only made in 42mm. We still have a handful left, but the model is being discontinued when the last pieces are sold.

I'd post some pics, but I don't have any left on my phone after the last purge I did. You can find a ton on our Facebook page or Instagram, or just doing a Google image search.

https://www.facebook.com/janistrading/

https://www.instagram.com/janistrading/

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## Noni51 (Jun 22, 2015)

Thanks for the info


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

To be honest Doc, you're probably 50% of the reason why I bought my first NTH watch.
The watchmaker is as important as the watch, and I think the watchmaker's personality gives life and identity to the brand and watch itself.

Said more simply, I'm proud of wearing a NTH watch. Even if it was ugly  (which isn't possible)
Thank you and keep it up Chris 



docvail said:


> I feel very strongly that every message I get from someone who thought enough to send it to me deserves a well-considered, polite, appreciative and thoughtful response.
> 
> I get dozens of emails and private messages through social media each day, almost all requiring my attention, some quite urgently, and as a one-man show, it's hard for me to keep up.
> 
> ...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Noni51 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> Does anyone have any pictures of the Cerberus? How do you find the watch? I was set on a 38/40mm as 42mm seems a bit large for my wrist.


Love mine on a 6.5" wrist. ⌚😍










Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On, "the customer is always right" - I'm not sure I ever agreed, but I'm positive I don't agree now.

I couldn't help thinking about it more, having had the phrase repeated to me by two random people on the internet in the same week. One was a guy who sent me 8 emails in a single day.

He was upset I didn't publish his scathing review to my website. One of his messages was a densely-worded lecture on how I ought to do business. It wasn't the first time someone's tried to school me in that way. I'm sure it won't be the last.

Results of a Google search for the history of the phrase point back to one or another department store founder at the turn of the 20th century, and as most people would likely expect, the intent was supposedly to encourage customers to shop with the store and encourage employees to always put the customer first.

I'm not certain that was in fact the intent of whoever first uttered the phrase, but I'll stipulate that became the meaning of the phrase as it gained popular use.

The only reason I mention the intent is because I spent most of my career in sales, went through numerous sales-training programs, and the phrase was given a different meaning in one of them, which I still remember.

The gist of it, as I was taught, was that if, as a salesperson, in the act of trying to make a sale, you find the customer thinks white-wall tires are the key to success with the ladies, and therefore wants the car with white-walls, don't try to change his mind, or educate him why whatever he said was nonsense, just sell him the car with white-walls. Whatever he wants, because of whatever he thinks, sell it to him, because "the customer is always right".

That particular lesson was chock full of humor, but the underlying point is valid - don't try to talk people out of wanting whatever they want, or convince them to want something else. If the customer thinks wearing a red necktie to the interview is more likely to get him the job than blue, just give him the red tie.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that "the customer is always right" actually means "give people what they want". I'm just giving a different, more up-to-date perspective on how that phrase has been carried forward through the years, and in my view, it's well past its use-by date.

Even "give people what they want" is likely to lead to trouble, if it means I'm constantly chasing down every narrow-niche idea, in an effort to please every palate.

The fact is, the customer is not always right, and any customer who throws that out at me in the midst of any exchange is extremely likely to be arguing beyond all reason, and is probably a customer I'm happy not to have.

It's the ultimate non-sequitur, the logical equivalent of calling someone who doesn't agree with your political views an ideologue or zealot, rather than acknowledging they may actually be making a valid point.

This isn't a new position I've adopted since starting my own business. It's been fundamental to me throughout my career, having had to fire customers from time to time, for abusing me or my employees, making unreasonable demands, or monopolizing my time, at the expense of other people more deserving of my attention.

As a final note on the subject - Top 5 Reasons Why 'The Customer Is Always Right' Is Wrong | The Huffington Post

Argue if you want. I'm sure someone will. Know in advance that if you're arguing with me, your argument will fall on deaf ears.

I know that probably makes me sound like someone unlikely to acquiesce to every customer demand, which some will say is tantamount to having an unfriendly attitude towards customers. If that's how you view it, odds are good you're exactly the type of person businesses don't want as a customer anyway.

It's more important to me to deliver outstanding service to the people who "get it", and appreciate my service, than to try to please those people who can't fathom why a business like mine can't effectively operate with "the customer is always right" as its mantra.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Corollary: trying to please everyone is a recipe for pleasing no one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cerialphreak (May 31, 2015)

Making sure customers receive the product or service they ordered and standing behind it is one thing. Giving into tantrums thrown by entitled people who think every business owes them special treatment is something entirely different. 0 tolerance for that level of ********. For every ...... customer who makes outrageous demands there are 50 people on here who appreciate your product and involvement with the community. Let them throw their tantrums, they can go buy their watches at the mall.



docvail said:


> On, "the customer is always right" - I'm not sure I ever agreed, but I'm positive I don't agree now.
> 
> I couldn't help thinking about it more, having had the phrase repeated to me by two random people on the internet in the same week. One was a guy who sent me 8 emails in a single day.
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I think I just came up with a new nickname for myself, "50-50".

One in 50 people thinks I'm an asshat, but my personality is 50% of the reason that one guy bought the watch from me.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

One in 50? Dont sell yourself short, doc, way more than one in 50 think you're an asshat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cerialphreak (May 31, 2015)

50-50 would be a great name for a pilot watch brand...



docvail said:


> I think I just came up with a new nickname for myself, "50-50".
> 
> One in 50 people thinks I'm an asshat, but my personality is 50% of the reason that one guy bought the watch from me.
> 
> Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

cerialphreak said:


> 50-50 would be a great name for a pilot watch brand...


Or cheap liquor.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a happier note -

I've got three Commander 300's for sale, all new, in box, to be sold with full 2-year manufacturer's warranty.

Before anyone asks - these were assembled from the spare/replacement parts my factory sent me when we received the full production of the Orthos II/Commander 300.

And no, this does not mean I don't have any more replacement parts (like bezel inserts) available. These are just the last three Commander cases (which have a different caseback than the Orthos I & II), and Commander dials, so these really and truly are the last 3 Commanders I'll ever have for sale.

However, I only had two bracelets for some reason, so one of them will be sold at a slightly lower price, on a new Blue Argyle MilSpec strap from Cincy Strap Works.

They are:

1. A black no-date (on bracelet) - Orthos, Commander 300 Edition - Black - No Date - Janis Trading Company

2. A blue no-date (on bracelet, or the NATO) - Orthos, Commander 300 Edition - Blue - No Date - Janis Trading Company

3. A blue with date (on bracelet, or the NATO) - Orthos, Commander 300 Edition - Blue - With Date - Janis Trading Company

Price for each is USD $500 on the bracelet, or $425 on the MilSpec strap, plus applicable shipping charges. The first customer to buy either of the blue versions will have their choice of bracelet or MilSpec strap (no, substituting one of our rubber straps for the MilSpec at the same price is NOT an option, but you can add the rubber strap for just $30 more if you do it from the product page of the watch).

Those interested should click on the links above, quickly, and buy them. Sorry, but no coupon codes may be used on these, except for those from our loyalty rewards program.

Please understand if you live in a country with a less than reliable national postal service (like Singapore, Mexico, Malaysia, Russia, or Turdmenistan), or if I've had any problems shipping there in the past, I may cancel your order.

Sorry, but the last time I shipped the last piece of something I had to Singapore (as an example), the item was of course lost in shipping, and I had to refund the customer because I couldn't replace it with another. I reserve the right to cancel any order on these if the destination country is even remotely sketchy.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> One in 50? Dont sell yourself short, doc, way more than one in 50 think you're an asshat.


You've always been my favorite, Andrew.

Favorite what, is the question.



cerialphreak said:


> 50-50 would be a great name for a pilot watch brand...


I don't get it.



vmarks said:


> Or cheap liquor.


But I would get that.

I can see the commercial now...

"Drinking Mad Dog 20/20? Sure, if you want to take half an hour to get drunk. But not all of us have that sort of time, which is why I drink Dead Horse 50/50. It gets you twice as drunk in half the time, and even if you could beat it, there's no point."


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> You've always been my favorite, Andrew.
> 
> Favorite what, is the question.
> 
> ...


i always get your animal references...

grab a brew. dont cost nothin.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> i always get your animal references...


Your signature always makes me want to ask if Pappus was a Rolling Stone...


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Your signature always makes me want to ask if Pappus was a Rolling Stone...


your signature.....


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

I'd love to have that blue Orthos Commander but sadly my watch funds are spoken for (and very low afterwards). Oh well someone is going to be lucky!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

The way to see it (in my opinion) is : 
- on *service*, the customer is usually *always right *(if he won't come back and bash your brand, something wasn't done right, no matter how you look at it)
- on *product*, the customer is usually *always wrong* (most innovations were not initially accepted by customers, plus what customers think they want and what they actually want / buy are two different things.)

I work in marketing in e-commerce so take it with a grain of salt 



docvail said:


> On, "the customer is always right" - I'm not sure I ever agreed, but I'm positive I don't agree now.
> 
> I couldn't help thinking about it more, having had the phrase repeated to me by two random people on the internet in the same week. One was a guy who sent me 8 emails in a single day.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Is it me or is it that the market for NTH watches is essentially frozen? A testament to the popularity of NTH watches that no one wants to sell them.

I scroll through WatchRecon every day and see the same NTH watches for sale and nothing added to the search results for days on end. 

Doc, you made it so good that no one wants to sell!


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Fannum Phrydae! On a new (to me) 2-pc PVD Schnato.

Who's the pharest of them all?


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Fantom Friday here as well.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Tanjecterly said:


> Is it me or is it that the market for NTH watches is essentially frozen? A testament to the popularity of NTH watches that no one wants to sell them.
> 
> I scroll through WatchRecon every day and see the same NTH watches for sale and nothing added to the search results for days on end.
> 
> Doc, you made it so good that no one wants to sell!


yeah, I have been trolling for a santa cruz for a while now. Just missed one a couple of weeks ago. I really want a well executed light dialed diver watch and they seem to be harder to find than expected. Or I am just super picky.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

idvsego said:


> yeah, I have been trolling for a santa cruz for a while now. Just missed one a couple of weeks ago. I really want a well executed light dialed diver watch and they seem to be harder to find than expected. Or I am just super picky.


No, a nice white dialed diver is hard to find. And I am picky too. I like the overall look of the SC but I particularly dislike Mercedes hands. Wish it had swords.

Halios had a nice white dialed Tropic, but are also hard to find. Glycine has some. There's also the new Borealis Cascais, which is my current pick. I looked at the new Prient !ako, but couldn't deal with the black hands.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

skipwilliams said:


> No, a nice white dialed diver is hard to find. And I am picky too. I like the overall look of the SC but I particularly dislike Mercedes hands. Wish it had swords.
> 
> Halios had a nice white dialed Tropic, but are also hard to find. Glycine has some. There's also the new Borealis Cascais, which is my current pick. I looked at the new Prient !ako, but couldn't deal with the black hands.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The Mercedes hands are what kept me from buying the SC at release but I have come around on them. Lesser of the evils as far as compromise goes, for me. I like black hands on a white dial for legibility. The c ward is one of my favorites too. The Borealis almost got my money but I struggle with pre-orders in general.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Santa Cruz, you say?










Mercedes hands are just fine by me. Of course, you could do as Jelliottz did and swap them if you don't care about a warranty. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)




----------



## Capt Obvious (Jul 21, 2014)

There are some watches I dislike mercedes hands on, and others where I demand them. Call me odd.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Capt Obvious said:


> There are some watches I dislike mercedes hands on, and others where I demand them. Call me odd.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Me too.

Two odds make us even.

Ric


----------



## Capt Obvious (Jul 21, 2014)

I do love the look of the SC also. Hey I bet there'll be more in the next batch.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

Hello everyone still very happy with my trusty commander travelling with me. My photo habilities havent improved in this time but i learnt to live with it


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

If anyone with a blue no-date Commander is looking to swap for a black one PM me!


----------



## dk999 (Jan 18, 2016)

Waiting for next round of nacken modern..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heads-up people.

We just assembled a handful of formerly sold-out NTH Subs.

I've got two Näcken Modern no-dates, one Santa Cruz with date, and one Näcken Vintage Black, no-date.

Get 'em while they're hot.

If you miss out, we'll be including the Santa Cruz and the Näcken Vintage Black in the next round of pre-orders, likely to start within the next 30-60 days.


----------



## Capt Obvious (Jul 21, 2014)

docvail said:


> Heads-up people.
> 
> We just assembled a handful of formerly sold-out NTH Subs.
> 
> ...


Wish I could jump on that Santa Cruz but funds won't allow. Gotta wait for preorders.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Oh snap... Bad timing though. Dang.


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

Doc what is the eta on the Baracuda prototype? Looking forward to seeing some photos.


----------



## Achtungz (Jul 18, 2015)

I'm here to offer some feedback. My amphion is really good so far, but one thing that can be improved is the bracelet clasp. The end edge of the bracelet arm is SUPER sharp. If you're gonna make any improvements maybe just machine the edges a bit rounder. Also the lumed crown on mine is almost nonexistent, but it's not that big of a deal.

Overall I really like the watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Proco2020 said:


> Doc what is the eta on the Baracuda prototype? Looking forward to seeing some photos.


Working on it.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Achtungz said:


> I'm here to offer some feedback. My amphion is really good so far, but one thing that can be improved is the bracelet clasp. The end edge of the bracelet arm is SUPER sharp. If you're gonna make any improvements maybe just machine the edges a bit rounder. Also the lumed crown on mine is almost nonexistent, but it's not that big of a deal.
> 
> Overall I really like the watch.


I'll mention it to my supplier.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Every time I notice Doc has posted in here I hope that it is a shipping notice for the Tropics. Only to find out its not. o|

Yes I know it is still very early however I am a big impatient kid. :roll:


----------



## Achtungz (Jul 18, 2015)

Specifically this corner.


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Happy Friday everyone, have a great weekend!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

sgt.brimer said:


> Happy Friday everyone, have a great weekend!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ill second that


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just FYI - We'll be raising pre-order prices on the NTH Antilles & Azores on March 20th.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I expect to have the Santa Fe and Barracuda prototypes in hand before the end of the week.

Here are the renders, as close as we could make them to real life.



















Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Can't wait for the photos. Love the Barracuda.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## hikeNbike (Oct 26, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Is the Santa Fe a full lume dial? Both look good. Barracuda looks like a huge winner.

yadda yadda tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hikeNbike said:


> Is the Santa Fe a full lume dial? Both look good. Barracuda looks like a huge winner.
> 
> yadda yadda tapatalk


Yes.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hikeNbike said:


> Is the Santa Fe a full lume dial? Both look good. Barracuda looks like a huge winner.
> 
> yadda yadda tapatalk


yes.yes.and,yes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

/ \
|
|
The newest

The oldest
|
|
\ /


----------



## phlabrooy (Dec 25, 2011)

docvail said:


> I expect to have the Santa Fe and Barracuda prototypes in hand before the end of the week.
> 
> Here are the renders, as close as we could make them to real life.


This ^^^

Yeah !!!

Regards,


----------



## hikeNbike (Oct 26, 2013)

phlabrooy said:


> This ^^^
> 
> Yeah !!!
> 
> Regards,


If Doc can pull off good lume on the all Lume dial this one just might be my pick as it would give me something different in the collection. Though the nacken modern blue is still right at the top of the list.

yadda yadda tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

hikeNbike said:


> If Doc can pull off good lume on the all Lume dial this one just might be my pick as it would give me something different in the collection. Though the nacken modern blue is still right at the top of the list.
> 
> yadda yadda tapatalk


He does alright...



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Welp. It looks like I just may have to pick and choose among three of the new Subs. My wife is going to be severely unhappy. C'est la vie!


----------



## phlabrooy (Dec 25, 2011)

If the dial colour of the Santa Fe turns out the same shade as that render, Doc has really nailed the vintage Tag Night Diver look !!!

|> |> |>

Can't wait to see that prototype now ...

Regards,


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

phlabrooy said:


> If the dial colour of the Santa Fe turns out the same shade as that render, Doc has really nailed the vintage Tag Night Diver look !!!
> 
> |> |> |>
> 
> ...












Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This is very "deep in the weeds", and anyone who doesn't care can feel free to skip it, as there's no "news" here.

The reason I didn't reveal the Santa Fe and the Barracuda sooner is that we had 3 different dial colors we were considering for the Santa Fe, and 6 different dial colors for the Barracuda. 

I didn't want to open up a public discussion/debate about which color would be best, especially with the Santa Fe, as the three colors were all illustrated VERY differently, even though two of the dials we produced were actually all but indistinguishable from each other. 

I didn't want people getting pissed off when I didn't pick their favorite, or clamoring to buy the unused prototype dials off me. That's a hassle I don't need. 

For the Barracuda, the 6 dial colors under consideration were all pretty close to each other. The differences were very subtle, but we weren't sure exactly how the bezel insert would look, and so we didn't know which dial color would look best with it. 

I wanted to first see which dial looked best with the bezel, which required us to wait until they were both produced, then we modified the illustration to get it as close as we could to the factory's pics, which were as awful as they usually are.

I'm not sure exactly why those two took as long as they did, when we got the other three a couple of months back, but there you have it.

Now that they're on their way to me (they should be here tomorrow, a day later than expected, thanks to the blizzard which just $h1t a ton of snow on us), I've got a photo shoot scheduled for Thursday, and can hopefully even post some real-world pics tomorrow, depending on what's going on and what time they're delivered. 

I'll be working on finalizing the pre-order start date and pre-order pricing. I figure pre-order might last a week to a month, depending on how things go. My best guess is we'll start pre-orders sometime in April, and be delivering in June/July.

With just the handsets, dials and bezel inserts needing to be produced, the production time on this batch is only going to be about 60 days from production start to shipping, so the pre-order pricing will need to start higher than when it was a six-month wait. I'm guessing closer to $500 than $400.

For those of you itching to get one, and sooner rather than later, feel free to spread the word about all the new Subs versions, and tell people to sign up for our email newsletter.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Very tempting. VERY very tempting indeed. I am so getting at least two and can't wait till preorders are open. Since preorders will begin in April, I can tell myself that it's a birthday present. Yes, that's the ticket. 

The first step to rationalizing a massive purchase is to get the story straight before you tell it to your wife with a straight face.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

:think::-xo|


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Choices, choices, choices! You are spoiling us for choices!

Santa Fe, Nacken Blue, and Amphion Gilt. Hell, I might have to order them all. Are there discounts for mass orders?!


----------



## hikeNbike (Oct 26, 2013)

Tanjecterly said:


> Choices, choices, choices! You are spoiling us for choices!
> 
> Santa Fe, Nacken Blue, and Amphion Gilt. Hell, I might have to order them all. Are there discounts for mass orders?!


Going to be tough decisions for sure.

yadda yadda tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Tanjecterly said:


> Choices, choices, choices! You are spoiling us for choices!
> 
> Santa Fe, Nacken Blue, and Amphion Gilt. Hell, I might have to order them all. Are there discounts for mass orders?!


I'm definitely on the Nacken blue.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


Saaaahhhhhweeeeeet!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)




----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


Wow looks better than expected! But I couldn't pull that color off lol.

Tapatalked using my GS7Edge


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Fuuuuuugh. First doc made me question my hate of mercedes hands with the Santa Cruz, now this is pushing my disdain of snowflake to the back burner. I have been wanting a brown dial/red bezel but this may just work. Solid work again.


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Just noticed it's got a sunburst dial |>

Was there some sort of coloured/hue filter applied to the pic?


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Yup that is spent money. In on this one. Let me just place those funds over here out of the way.

I bet that would look super cool and completely different than everything else with the blue bezel from the SC in an alternate timeline in another reality.



docvail said:


> Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Damn those renderings, they don't come even close to what the watch will look like! I could not wear it - but it looks absolutely gorgeous and on point! 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## hikeNbike (Oct 26, 2013)

Man that Barracuda looks awesome. Any shots of the Santa Fe?

yadda yadda tapatalk


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

The bezel almost looks purple. Is it just the light? The renders were more like light-colored root beer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

Wow! I was pretty set on the Barracuda anyway, and considering photos seem to represent about 8.5% of the awesomeness of these watches I can guarantee that will be a stunner.

That rendering of the Santa Fe is incredible though. I may need that too.

I own a Nacken Modern Black. Will be getting a Barracuda. Am now tempted with a Santa Fe. And still have a desire for the Scorpene and Nacken Vintage Blue. Who else thinks a NTH Subs Swap Club might be needed soon?!? lol


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

The 'Cuda is something special.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Said it before, but it'd look great on one of these.


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


The dial is textured too, right? This is gonna be awesomesauce!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Just noticed it's got a sunburst dial |>
> 
> Was there some sort of coloured/hue filter applied to the pic?


Nope. But I'll post more pics.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hikeNbike said:


> Man that Barracuda looks awesome. Any shots of the Santa Fe?
> 
> yadda yadda tapatalk












Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skipwilliams said:


> The bezel almost looks purple. Is it just the light? The renders were more like light-colored root beer.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It may be the light, or my phone.



















Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keefy said:


> The dial is textured too, right? This is gonna be awesomesauce!


It does have a less obvious version of the vintage sandpaper texture.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## hikeNbike (Oct 26, 2013)

docvail said:


> Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


Thanks Doc looks awesome. Have to see what I can swing if I can grab 2 it will be the Santa Fe and the Modern Blue. If only one will be a tough decision. Want to say the Santa Fe but as I keep going back to the Modern Blue pic that one is going to be tough for me to pass on.

yadda yadda tapatalk


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


That's the coolest fricken thing I'll see today!

Love those two pics of the 'cuda too ... although bizarrely it's those that look slightly purple to me, not the previous one!


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


This turned out great. My favorite from the bunch . You could grow old with this watch.

Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keefy said:


> That's the coolest fricken thing I'll see today!


Now it is.



















Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## sriracha (May 2, 2014)

Santa Fe is sweeeeeeeeeeeettttt!!!!!


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Now it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. Yes it is!


----------



## hikeNbike (Oct 26, 2013)

Can I order now?

yadda yadda tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Santa Fe is a definite hit. Great pics. Thanks for sharing. 

Now, when are preorders open?!


----------



## phlabrooy (Dec 25, 2011)

docvail said:


>





docvail said:


>


Yes, Yes, Yes !!!

Bring it on, Doc !

Superb .....

Regards,


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Seriously, your killin me here Doc. :rodekaart


----------



## hairy (Dec 16, 2011)

Nice work! The Santa Fe design is really unique and attractive.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

I'm not sure what I was expecting but, for some reason, the black bezel wasn't it. This is probably going to be a preorder from me on day one - it looks a lot better than what I had imagined.



docvail said:


> Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

CMFord said:


> I'm not sure what I was expecting but, for some reason, the black bezel wasn't it. This is probably going to be a preorder from me on day one - it looks a lot better than what I had imagined.


Usually I'm anticipating the pre-order to get a "good deal." With this watch, I'd buy one right now at full price, just to make sure I get one.


----------



## phlabrooy (Dec 25, 2011)

CMFord said:


> I'm not sure what I was expecting but, for some reason, the black bezel wasn't it.


Well... I for one, was expecting something like this ...









( Pic borrowed from the net)

... and looks like Doc sure delivered !!!

Regards,


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Usually I'm anticipating the pre-order to get a "good deal." With this watch, I'd buy one right now at full price, just to make sure I get one.


I'll have to create a separate product for you, but we can make that happen...


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


GD doc that thing is hot.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Nacken Vintage Blue on a sunny Friday afternoon. Have a great weekend everyone!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Amuthini (Sep 15, 2011)

what is the pre order pricing for the lume dial santa fe?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Amuthini said:


> what is the pre order pricing for the lume dial santa fe?


Not set yet.

Please subscribe to our email newsletter to be sure you get the latest updates.


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Oh yeah I ordered a new Bond strap from Cincy Strap Works for the Nacken, should be in my mailbox sometime next week. The one I currently have it on is a bit short (it still fits my wrist but there's not enough tail to secure it properly).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Shut up before Doc figures out he probably doesn't need to discount as much for preorders....



dmjonez said:


> Usually I'm anticipating the pre-order to get a "good deal." With this watch, I'd buy one right now at full price, just to make sure I get one.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Bah, the guy's got kids to put through college. I'm paying what it's worth, which is the usual price.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HAGWE everybody, from me, the Barracuda, and the C3 (the mango in the background ain't got nuthin' to say).










Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Am I the only one who sees this as the thread image in Tapatalk?










What the crap is going on? I don't even remember that pic being posted.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Nope, me too.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> HAGWE everybody, from me, the Barracuda, and the C3 (the mango in the background ain't got nuthin' to say).
> 
> 
> 
> ...












Have a good weekend, Doc. Mangoes.


----------



## idrumgood (Mar 16, 2017)

So I know the Barracuda and the Santa Fe are coming in this next batch of pre-orders, but you keep talking about 5 new watches. What are the other 3? I'm 98% sure I'm gonna grab a Barracuda, but holding out to see what the other options are.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

idrumgood said:


> So I know the Barracuda and the Santa Fe are coming in this next batch of pre-orders, but you keep talking about 5 new watches. What are the other 3? I'm 98% sure I'm gonna grab a Barracuda, but holding out to see what the other options are.


Check the "Coming soon" section of the website.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Doc, they're both sweet, but the Santa Fe... if only I had the budget for it. Giant sigh...


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

I realise that this has probably been answered already but I can't find it; what about the gilt version of the new NTH subs? Any pics of this one yet?


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> Am I the only one who sees this as the thread image in Tapatalk?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Me too. But clear your Tapatalk cache and it should update to the latest pic in the thread again. Happens from time to time with any thread ive noticed.

Sent by 2 thumbs.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Hornet99 said:


> I realise that this has probably been answered already but I can't find it; what about the gilt version of the new NTH subs? Any pics of this one yet?


Render on p59, a couple of photos on p93

This post by Doc I think Hornet99 |>

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-93.html#post3

There's also a couple of shots I notice now on the JanisTrading site under 'coming soon'

You know I'm a fan of these anyway, and I'm rather finding myself torn between the Amphion Dark Gilt, the Amphion Vintage Blue (but maybe my / your old Nacken Vintage Blue does too a similar job?) and the Barracuda (that design grabbed me from the first render I saw and hasn't let go).

I guess I have until pre-orders open up to make up my mind ;-)


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Hornet99 said:


> I realise that this has probably been answered already but I can't find it; what about the gilt version of the new NTH subs? Any pics of this one yet?


You referring to this one?


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Slant said:


> You referring to this one?


Might be, is this one of the prototypes? I thought it had snowflake hands?


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Hornet99 said:


> Might be, is this one of the prototypes? I thought it had snowflake hands?


This one then.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Slant said:


> This one then.


Think you are right with the first one, it was the Amphion gilt I was interested in seeing........

Thanks fella |>


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Giving the Oberon the jubilee treatment today.










Nick Furry approves.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

Oh jeez... another white dial for my collection?! Not sure but The Santa Fe looks great!!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> Giving the Oberon the jubilee treatment today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Always knew something was off about you, rusty. #furriesarecreepy

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wromg (Feb 26, 2014)

Is there gonna be a date version of the Santa Fe full lume?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wromg said:


> Is there gonna be a date version of the Santa Fe full lume?


No.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Updated images, including studio-shots of all the new NTH Subs can be found here - Coming Soon - Janis Trading Company.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

That Barracuda... The shade of brown is amazing... Less root beer, more burgundy. Or is it rum?
Either way, you nailed it Doc. Yet again you took something cool and made it more awesome!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cosmodromedary said:


> That Barracuda... The shade of brown is amazing... Less root beer, more burgundy. Or is it rum?
> Either way, you nailed it Doc. Yet again you took something cool and made it more awesome!


Thank you sir.

I admit, I'm very happy with how the last two Subs turned out. I wasn't sure we'd be able to get the sandpaper texture with the full-lume dial on the Santa Fe, or that we'd get the colors the way I wanted them on the Barracuda.

Let's call it "Birch" beer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

There is now one (1) Amphion Modern left in stock. Anyone sitting on the fence thinking about getting one, this is your last call. We will NOT be making more available during the next pre-order.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I wish I could, Doc. I really wish I could.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Dammit Doc. There's never just one watch that grabs me on your preorders. I'm always torn between 2-3, sometimes 4. Nacken Blue for sure. Santa Cruz, very likely. I like the Santa Fe and the Amphion gilt as well. I guess the kid could go to public school next year. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## idrumgood (Mar 16, 2017)

Welp, I'm 100% pre-ordering a Barracuda. It's a really sexy watch.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Looks like four out of the five new ones have no date. Is that right?

For me, for sure, Amphion Gilt. Either blues are a possibility as well.


----------



## Ottski44 (Jul 19, 2014)

Sorry if I missed it earlier but when do the preorders begin?


----------



## hikeNbike (Oct 26, 2013)

Santa Fe for me I've decided. Damn it sucks to choose only one. Nacken modern blue if at all possible but any multiple purchases have to get approval so we will see.

yadda yadda tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> Updated images, including studio-shots of all the new NTH Subs can be found here - Coming Soon - Janis Trading Company.


Wow, that barracuda turned out SO good. Really rich and deep. Somehow purple/burgundy/brown - congratulations!

The shown prices, are these the pre-order prices?

Is there any chance, you'd do something like a näcken modern GREEN or vintage GREEN? This would look awesome as well I think...just a thought

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> Looks like four out of the five new ones have no date. Is that right?


Yes.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ottski44 said:


> Sorry if I missed it earlier but when do the preorders begin?


Soon. Sign up for the email newsletter for the latest updates.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Wow, that barracuda turned out SO good. Really rich and deep. Somehow purple/burgundy/brown - congratulations!
> 
> The shown prices, are these the pre-order prices?


No. Those are in stock prices. Pre-order prices not set yet. Sign up for the email newsletter for the latest updates.



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Is there any chance, you'd do something like a näcken modern GREEN or vintage GREEN? This would look awesome as well I think...just a thought.


Zero chance. Can't do green PVD on steel. No such color PVD from our suppliers.

Tapatalk ain't bad. It's just misunderstood...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wimads said:


> Me too. But clear your Tapatalk cache and it should update to the latest pic in the thread again. Happens from time to time with any thread ive noticed.
> 
> Sent by 2 thumbs.


Tried that. Didn't work.

Whoever posted that pic (and I assume, later deleted it) owes me a new phone. I just threw mine against the wall and it smashed into a dozen pieces...


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Tried that. Didn't work.
> 
> Whoever posted that pic (and I assume, later deleted it) owes me a new phone. I just threw mine against the wall and it smashed into a dozen pieces...


Lol you're right, just tried and didn't work for me either... 
Think it was posted right after you announced the barracuda. 
Edit: found it! Post #628  yes I had nothing better to do.

Sent by 2 thumbs.


----------



## whoa (May 5, 2013)

Yeah I have the same crappy picture and tried deleting the cache.. Same .... xD 

/insert clever or funny note here\


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

This will be my next watch. It's unbelievable.


docvail said:


> Thank you sir.
> 
> I admit, I'm very happy with how the last two Subs turned out. I wasn't sure we'd be able to get the sandpaper texture with the full-lume dial on the Santa Fe, or that we'd get the colors the way I wanted them on the Barracuda.
> 
> ...


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Thank you sir.
> 
> I admit, I'm very happy with how the last two Subs turned out. I wasn't sure we'd be able to get the sandpaper texture with the full-lume dial on the Santa Fe, or that we'd get the colors the way I wanted them on the Barracuda.
> 
> ...


Damn, now I want some birch beer... and a watch.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

It's just as amazing as I expected, I didn't like the sandpaper dial on the past model but this is just so cool. And yet, I'm deciding between this and the Barracuda, I was expecting some boring brown just as you see on my Rolexes but Doc blew it out of the park.

Congratulations Doc, you designed a better looking watch than Rolex.


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

I'm leaning towards the Barracuda as well. I want to have some different colored dials in my collection, and that watch looks really good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> Congratulations Doc, you designed a better looking watch than Rolex.


The internet literally - not figuratively - begins melting down in 3...2...

You tap the talk. Do you wap the walk?


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> Congratulations Doc, you designed a better looking watch than Rolex.


I have owned, do own, or will own a total of eight of Doc's watches...who is this Rolex again?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Can I atleast hide in a closet one time and check out the all lume dial on my Antilles before I have to decide about the Santa Fe? :-s


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

mplsabdullah said:


> Can I atleast hide in a closet one time and check out the all lume dial on my Antilles before I have to decide about the Santa Fe? :-s


I know where this is going...


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

rpm1974 said:


> Giving the Oberon the jubilee treatment today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


. Where did you get the Jubilee and is it a could fit to the case?


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Proco2020 said:


> . Where did you get the Jubilee and is it a could fit to the case?


Don't laugh when you see what I paid for it... look for YGDZ Jubilee 20mm on Amazon. The fit is pretty great, actually. Here are a few better pics of it on the Amphion.



















The only thing I'd change is the clasp. I'm looking for a decent 16mm locking clasp.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

Looks like price may have gone up going by the reviews. No longer $6.99 unless the pound has crashed.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Proco2020 said:


> Looks like price may have gone up going by the reviews. No longer $6.99 unless the pound has crashed.


Here's a link to the item I purchased - still showing $6.99 Prime price.

http://a.co/h29pTAD


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Just received an email saying preorders to start Monday April 17 at noon est. So everyone please wait until about 1 pm before you go to the site so I can have plenty of time to make my selection(s?). Thank you :-!


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

Sadly at that price it doesn't ship to the UK


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Cincy Strap Works Bond strap came in the mail today (a day earlier than expected). It wears a lot better than the other strap I had the Nacken on. Oh yeah they threw in a mini bag of Skittles too!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Test driving the Nth Azores prototype. If you're considering one of the Topics, grab one. This is another winner by Docvail Industries.

Today it's on the tropic rubber strap:


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ottski44 (Jul 19, 2014)

Apologies if this has been covered but are the pre-order prices listed on Janis Trading for the new NTH Subs legitimate? Will they be starting at $500? Need to know what to have ready in the PayPal account. Thanks.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Yes according to the Janis blog: 
*Q: How many of each NTH Sub will be available during pre-order, and how will the pre-order be structured?*
A: We plan to make between 5 and 15 pieces of each model available at each pre-order price tier, for a total of 70 pieces available at each tier, starting at $125 off the final, in-stock retail price ($475-$500 at the first tier, depending on the model). 
As we sell out of a model at one pre-order price tier, we will raise the price $25 and make more available at the next tier. 
The number of pieces available for each model will be visible on that model's product page.

Example: We'll make 15 Barracudas available at $500. When those 15 pieces "sell out", we'll raise the price to $525, and make another 15 available at that price. We'll keep doing that with all 7 versions. 
Additionally, we'll typically raise prices in $25-$50 increments on a more-or-less monthly basis as we near our target delivery date.


----------



## Ottski44 (Jul 19, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> Yes according to the Janis blog:
> *Q: How many of each NTH Sub will be available during pre-order, and how will the pre-order be structured?*
> A: We plan to make between 5 and 15 pieces of each model available at each pre-order price tier, for a total of 70 pieces available at each tier, starting at $125 off the final, in-stock retail price ($475-$500 at the first tier, depending on the model).
> As we sell out of a model at one pre-order price tier, we will raise the price $25 and make more available at the next tier.
> ...


Thank you.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ottski44 said:


> Apologies if this has been covered but are the pre-order prices listed on Janis Trading for the new NTH Subs legitimate? Will they be starting at $500? Need to know what to have ready in the PayPal account. Thanks.


Only quoting you because you mentioned it, but this is something I've seen trip up a number of people.

The prices on the product page are STARTING pre-order prices, like the "early bird" prices on some Kickstarter prices. When we sell through the number I've made available for each model at those first price tiers, the prices will go UP.

There are total of 70 pieces available at the first tier. Not 70 of each model, but 70 total, across the 7 models we'll be selling. There are only 5 to 15 of each model available at each price tier.

I don't recall precisely how many Subs we sold in what time when we did the first pre-order, but it had to be at least 100-150 in the first few minutes, and over 200 before the end of the first day. We blew through the first two price tiers on all 8 models in the first hour, but ended the day with each model still in the third tier ($50 more than the first tier).

People should not expect that they'll definitely be able to get in at the lowest tier. I'd recommend everyone be prepared to spend at least $25-$50 more, in order to avoid being frustrated/angry if it happens.

Also...

If you've never ordered anything from my website before, I HIGHLY recommend creating a customer account before pre-orders start, so you're not keying in all your name and address info while others are cleaning out all the pieces available at whatever tier we happen to be in. As a bonus, everyone who creates a customer account is automatically subscribed to our email newsletter, which I use to send out announcements related to pre-orders.

If you plan to check out using a credit card, I HIGHLY, STRONGLY, STRENUOUSLY recommend taking a look at your credit card statement, and making sure you key in your billing address EXACTLY, PRECISELY, DOWN TO THE CHARACTER the same way it is on your statement.

The undisputed grand champion reason people get hung up at checkout during pre-order is their credit card being rejected because they're not keying in their address exactly as it appears on their statement, with every character, space and capitalization the same way. My checkout security settings are dialed up as high as they are in order to prevent fraud.

If your card gets rejected, STOP, and either check the address on your statement, or just use PayPal. Do not keep trying to run the same card, or even a different card. You'll create problems for both of us, at the worst possible time.

In some cases, attempting to checkout multiple times will create phantom charges on your credit card account, and if that happens, there is literally nothing I can do to resolve them, no matter what your bank says. They have to clear them out on their own, in their own time.

Shipping, Returns, Warranty, Pre-Order Policies & FAQs


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

May want to just copy and paste that in here at least once a week until the day of, lol. ;-)


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

Testing out the prototype NTH Antilles Black










Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Can I say that I cordially detest the people who are trying out these cool prototypes?


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Tanjecterly said:


> Can I say that I cordially detest the people who are trying out these cool prototypes?


Wouldn't be the first time I've been on the receiving end of that sort of disdain.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ways to get a test-drive with one of our prototypes:

1. Write for a blog with a decent-sized audience, and write SOLID reviews, not formulaic puff pieces. It doesn't hurt at all if your reviews are accompanied by decent photos and/or video, and/or if you also happen to have a decent following on instagram. It helps if we've worked together before, and you made yourself easy for me to work with (you published your review and sent my samples back to me within a few weeks to a month, and I didn't need to send you half a dozen emails in the interim).

2. Be a fairly decent, or better yet, an outstanding photographer, preferably with a large following (measured in the thousands, not hundreds) on instagram, and/or be a regular at frequently held local GTG's, *AND* be someone I know and trust, like a friend or repeat customer, or better yet, both.

3. Be an existing member of my inner circle (the one I publicly invited people to join more than two years ago, in the then-active L&H thread). If you're not already a part of it, sorry, but asking for a review sample, "just because" probably won't happen. Those lists are too long and the time between starting the "Whirled Tour" and delivering the model on tour is just too short to start adding names to it.

Ways NOT to get a test-drive:

1. Email me to ask, "just because" ("I bought one", "I'm thinking of buying one", "I can't afford to buy one", "I'll write up a review on WUS/IG", and "I know how to contact you and I don't mind taking your time" all fall under the heading of "just because").

2. DM/IM/PM me to ask, here, or on FB, or IG.

3. Post a comment here, or on FB, or IG, asking.

Sorry, guys, but people hound me with emails and other messages on a daily basis - people looking to get their hand into my pocket, looking for a freebie, or just willing to waste my time blowing smoke at me (not to mention the unsolicited/unwanted design/new model suggestions, or the ill-informed critiques, with those fun-to-read laundry lists of invalid complaints and improvements which can't be made - seriously, why do people insist on sending those to me?).

Sending out review samples costs me time and money. I need a good reason to do it.

This:









Will NOT cut it.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Doc, I respect you for doing business the way you do it. 

I think your day has at least 48 hours. Somehow you mastered time. I mean "the time" - how do you do all this? No need to answer that question, though. 

Keep on doing, what you're doing 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

^^^ LOL. Thanks, Doc, for giving us your views on test driving your prototypes from a business perspective.

I was just being jocular.

Just. <g>


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Tanjecterly said:


> ^^^ LOL.
> 
> I was just being jocular.
> 
> Just. <g>


Me too, my man


----------



## Derek N (Jun 12, 2006)

Happy Fantum Friday; and HAGWE!


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Sending out review samples costs me time and money. I need a good reason to do it.


I have a good reason...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Now that there's a few posts after Jonathan's, I'll post a couple of MY pics...

Two forties:










And dat lume!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Derek N said:


> Happy Fantum Friday; and HAGWE!


Bah, I missed it. Since when did you switch the dial back to the B dial and kept the Commander hands? Did you put the Commander back together with the sword hands from the Phantom?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Derek N said:


> Happy Fantum Friday; and HAGWE!


Yes! Not the only fannum today lol









Tapatalked using my GS7Edge


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

My wife unknowingly helped me pick the minty Azore. Any pics of that one... lume shots... and side-by-side with the vanilla one?


----------



## TheMeasure (Jul 8, 2013)

fearlessleader said:


> My wife unknowingly helped me pick the minty Azore. Any pics of that one... lume shots... and side-by-side with the vanilla one?


Look back to posts 1393 & 1409. I'm pretty sure that's the mint. ;-)


----------



## Derek N (Jun 12, 2006)

azsuprasm said:


> Bah, I missed it. Since when did you switch the dial back to the B dial and kept the Commander hands? Did you put the Commander back together with the sword hands from the Phantom?


I guess instead of trying to explain the process, I'll just show you a picture. : )


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

TheMeasure said:


> Look back to posts 1393 & 1409. I'm pretty sure that's the mint. ;-)


Yup.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Derek N said:


> I guess instead of trying to explain the process, I'll just show you a picture. : )


I love my Fannum: Had Doc originally made the Commander with a 12-hr bezel, I would have bought two as it would have checked all the boxes for me: 41-43mm case, 22mm lugs (deal breaker) and the poor man's 12-hr GMT. The vintage markers & lume would have pushed it into a multiple purchase! Hit me up if you ever get tired of your SS creation, Derek.

Hey, Iliyan! Looks like we have another fan of 12-hr bezels.

More here, updated with all eight of mine (to date): https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/12-hour-bezels-where-have-they-gone-1501202.html


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

azsuprasm said:


> Hey, Iliyan! Looks like we have another fan of 12-hr bezels.
> 
> More here, updated with all eight of mine (to date): https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/12-hour-bezels-where-have-they-gone-1501202.html


The more the merrier! Awesome collection!


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

TheMeasure said:


> Look back to posts 1393 & 1409. I'm pretty sure that's the mint. ;-)


Thanks! Soon... I keep telling myself, soon...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Excellent ..... lume.


----------



## 760274 (Jul 24, 2015)

docvail said:


> This:
> 
> View attachment 11290042
> 
> ...


Hahaha, that made me laugh out loud. Get that almost every day. I work for a bicycle company, and the number of people asking stuff like this is insane. My favorites have been:

- Today is my birthday, can I have a bike for free? Preferably this or that top level model. _(Happens in various forms much more often than you think)_
- I plan this huge trip around the world, can you give me a free bike? I plan a huge book and movie when I get back in a few years. _(Chances are, I will never hear from them again)_
- I'd like to review your product and keep it afterwards. Here is my young single mom's blog. _(Look at site, see dildo test on the front page. Yes, that's where I wanna place my product)

_I'd just love to be allowed to give the kind of responses Doc gives.


----------



## smatrixt (Aug 7, 2014)

Posted this in the WRUW thread the other day, figured it should go here too.

F71 Nato?









BoR Bracelet?









Maybe rubber?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sea-Dog said:


> Hahaha, that made me laugh out loud. Get that almost every day. I work for a bicycle company, and the number of people asking stuff like this is insane. My favorites have been:
> 
> - Today is my birthday, can I have a bike for free? Preferably this or that top level model. _(Happens in various forms much more often than you think)_
> - I plan this huge trip around the world, can you give me a free bike? I plan a huge book and movie when I get back in a few years. _(Chances are, I will never hear from them again)_
> ...


You had me at "dildo".

As we walked to a restaurant for a dinner date on Friday night, I was telling my wife how strange a week it had been, including an uptick in the number of messages I'd received ranging from pure digital panhandling to bloggers/reviewers who can't take a hint, and from customers/friends who I try not to be angry at when they send me stuff I don't want.

I tend to ignore most of the digital panhandlers. If one of them sends me repeat messages, and depending on how insane they seem, I'll either create a rule to automatically and permanently delete their emails, or I may eventually respond to tell them to piss off.

Bloggers/reviewers who can't take "no" for an answer, or don't get the hint when I don't respond to their requests are more or less treated the same way. Ditto for salespeople.

As a note on bloggers/reviewers and salespeople, in case one happens to be reading this - I'm friendly with, and in regular contact with at least 3 dozen of my peer micro-brand owners. If you become a persistent nuisance to any of us, we'll all hear of it. If you step out of line and get nasty with any of us, you'll be blackballed, instantly.

Yes, if you're wondering, it's happened.

The difficult ones are the out-of-left-field messages from customers/friends, or just people on the forum who I sort of know, and we're sort of friends, so I don't want to get pissy with them.

But I do want people to know I REALLY don't want suggestions for new models or changes to existing designs, nor do I have time to give a polite yet detailed explanation why I can't use ANY of those suggestions sent my way to each and every person who insists on doing that despite my frequent and public requests not to.

I don't have time to politely explain why I'm not sending out one of my watches to be test-driven just because someone sees I've sent a watch to someone else, and thinks I'm running a lending library. Last year there was a guy who asked for a test-drive every time I posted a pic of one particular watch to Instagram. It got old fast.

I don't have time to politely explain why I don't need someone who knows nothing about watch production or my production costs sending me a laundry list of "suggestions for improvement", which actually reads like a list of complaints from someone with an inflated sense of their own expertise.

I can't tell you how much I resent that, and yet it happens with surprising frequency. Owning even a few dozen watches does NOT make someone an expert on handset length, AR quality, or any other aspect of something we produce. It makes you a watch-geek, that's all.

I can't adequately express my disgust for someone who comes along six months after we started pre-orders, and has the balls to straight out ask me if they can get a discount on the current price. I've started saying "yes, just as soon as you can deliver me your product or service at an equivalent discount". You snooze, you lose. Buy used if you can't or won't pay my asking price, but don't ask me to lower it, just because.

Everyone who sends me something like any of that probably thinks, "meh, it's just me, it's just one message. How annoyed can he be?"

I get a dozen of those a week. I get really annoyed. There's a reason I get loopy by mid-day on a Friday.

She suggested I stop giving everyone a personalized response, and just create some standardized responses to send out.

I hate when she's right.

So this past weekend, that's what I did. I drafted a handful of standardized, cut-and-dry, hopefully inoffensively bland form-letters which I plan to send as a response to anyone who insists on ignoring all my public statements regarding the above.

Now I can stop stressing out over injecting a sense of my annoyance into my replies, and get back to doing what I need to do to run my business and maintain my sanity.

If someone reading this gets one, you'll know why.


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

Enjoying the prototype NTH Antilles Black










Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

jonathanp77 said:


> Enjoying the prototype NTH Antilles Black
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> You had me at "dildo".
> 
> As we walked to a restaurant for a dinner date on Friday night, I was telling my wife how strange a week it had been, including an uptick in the number of messages I'd received ranging from pure digital panhandling to bloggers/reviewers who can't take a hint, and from customers/friends who I try not to be angry at when they send me stuff I don't want.
> 
> ...


Keep fighting the good fight Doc!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jonathanp77 said:


> Enjoying the prototype NTH Antilles Black
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That pic gave me Rabbititis.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

This is at least the 2nd time I've read a post from Doc and had to hang my head in shame and proclaim "Guilty!"

Sorry Doc!

On a completely un-related note:

The guy who sits in the cube next to me is also a "watch guy / watch nerd / WIS". I've had several conversations with him about watches. Frequently these conversations go to NTH / L&W watches. Like today, when I'm wearing my Riccardo. I've made it a point to cycle through my watches more frequently and try to give each one more wrist time. So he frequently asks what is on my wrist today. I've tried to get him to join WUS, but that hasn't happened yet.

I own the following L&W and NTH watches:

Orthos Blue & Orange --> Still one of my very top most favorite watches
Commander Black --> Still new in box, awaiting me to achieve a personal goal... it will be the reward. 
Santa Cruz --> Right up there with the Orthos, I love it!
Riccardo Black and Orange --> This was my "Moby Dick". I slew that White Whale! And yes, it lives up to the hype!

Tropics on Pre-Order.
Seriously want to jump in on the pre-order for either a Barracuda or Nacken Modern Blue. Don't know if I will have the funds this time around. Might have to wait.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> This is at least the 2nd time I've read a post from Doc and had to hang my head in shame and proclaim "Guilty!"


You're in good company. That club's membership is huge.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Guilty and a little (lot) hard headed!

Keep doing you're thing Doc we will be here to support and encourage you but, will refrain from taking up your time and sorry!

Same here on pre-orders. I'm just trying to justify funds for a third on the next round. Waffling on the white dial and modern blue but, the timing on this release is terrible (for me) I'm stroking a big fat check to uncle sugar this year.

I will find a way none the less....



kendalw3 said:


> This is at least the 2nd time I've read a post from Doc and had to hang my head in shame and proclaim "Guilty!"
> 
> Sorry Doc!
> 
> ...


Watch geek and charter member of the D.D.C. (Doc Disturbers Club)


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Double tap.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> You're in good company. That club's membership is huge.


Membership may be huge, but I'm not so sure it is the club I want to be in.

I'm happy to be in the L&W and NTH Owner's Club.

Don't want to be in the "Annoy, Pester, and Irritate Doc Club"!


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Ruggs said:


> Keep fighting the good fight Doc!


Nah, he shouldn't fight the good fight, he should fight the smart one.

Working hard is awesome, and it will take you to a lot of great places in life. There is definitely a line though where your business is simply too big to personally respond to everything. Doc does a fantastic job with the community and is a model for how you should handle customers. Honest, personable, and not afraid to tell his customer when they are wrong or out of line.

If the personal responses to the people needing those "screw off hoser" messages is making it too hard to keep up with the legit business, screw em, send those form letters!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> Guilty and a little (lot) hard headed!
> 
> Watch geek and charter member of the D.D.C. (Doc Disturbers Club)


Maybe you and Kendal could get together with the others and develop a secret handshake, come up with a nifty little lapel pin...

I planned to provide more examples of "things people in clubs do", but ran out of steam halfway through that sentence.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Doc,
While I appreciate your suggestions, please leave the details of D.D.C club affairs "secret handshakes" and such to me. I got this.

Further, I could draft a detailed, personable, and logical response about how we can't do a "nifty lapel pin" as it defeats the whole purpose of a secret club but, I digress.

/sarcasm

All in good fun Doc 



docvail said:


> Maybe you and Kendal could get together with the others and develop a secret handshake, come up with a nifty little lapel pin...
> 
> I planned to provide more examples of "things people in clubs do", but ran out of steam halfway through that sentence.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> Doc,
> While I appreciate your suggestions, please leave the details of D.D.C club affairs "secret handshakes" and such to me. I got this.
> 
> Further, I could draft a detailed, personable, and logical response about how we can't do a "nifty lapel pin" as it defeats the whole purpose of a secret club but, I digress.
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, this just happened - Phantom, Ghost Rider Edition.

You all can blame @Derek N.















Y'all can feel free to tell people. I'm not a WUS sponsor any more, so I gotta watch I don't abuse their hospitality.

Pre-orders started like 2 minutes ago, when I made that page on the site live. They'll go until we sell enough to order the dials/handsets, or they're all gone. Hopefully, with 57 or less being made, it won't take too long.

And yes, I'm sorry if it puts a wrench into anyone's plans to get one of the Tropics, or one of the next batch of Subs.

I'll be doing this all year, folks. I've got something else like this planned, and two brand, spanking new models in development.

When I tell you all I'm busy, and can't consider any new projects, this is why.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Negative Ghost Rider the pattern is full.

What the hell it's time to buzz the tower...



docvail said:


> Also, this just happened - Phantom, Ghost Rider Edition.
> 
> You all can blame @Derek N.
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those who just joined us and were wondering who the hell Derek N is...

NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail - Page 102

NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail - Page 103

I pretty much got started working on a Phantom LE as soon as I saw Derek post that.

When I say "I" and "started working", what I mean is I told Aaron (@Synaptyx, the third corner in my design-a-trois team) to whip me up a sandwich dial version of the Commander 300 (many will remember he was the lead designer for the forum project), with the Deadhead pilot in place of Sparky on the dial, and drop it in a Phantom case.

As new designs go, this one pretty much designed itself.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Yeah, I'm in. It looks very nice.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This is the easiest business in the world.

1. Post rambling manifestos insulting your target audience.

2. People buy what you're selling.

3. ?

4. Profit.

Thanks guys. I'm out. I was supposed to eat dinner 5 hours ago, so...see y'all mañana.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

o|o|o|



Seriously, your killing me here.


----------



## allonon (Aug 13, 2013)

Created handful of buzz off responses......

Challenge accepted 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Here's me:


azsuprasm said:


> ...Had Doc originally made the Commander with a 12-hr bezel, I would have bought two as it would have checked all the boxes for me: 41-43mm case, 22mm lugs (deal breaker) and the poor man's 12-hr GMT. The vintage markers & lume would have pushed it into a multiple purchase


Here's Doc: 


docvail said:


> Also, this just happened - Phantom, Ghost Rider Edition.
> 
> You all can blame @Derek N.


Challenge Accepted, and don't blame Derek for putting a few more "bones" on Sparky.

Now I'm gonna hafta meet up with Kendal for a watch lunch again later this summer. We'll have some new pieces to compare by then...and we'll definitely shake hands in some manner when we meet.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

docvail said:


> This is the easiest business in the world.
> 
> 1. Post rambling manifestos insulting your target audience.


That's part of your charm, Doc. Or not.

In the cold hindsight of morning, I took another look at the render and I must say that Synaptyx did a great job. There are times when I make rash decisions. This is not one.

I wish I had something wittier to say, but I don't. I think purchasers of this one are in for a treat.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Phantom Ghost Rider is al l what I hoped for... except your timing. Too many bills on the table this month. Brilliant looking watch Doc. Aaron and Derek.

Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

azsuprasm said:


> Here's me:
> 
> Here's Doc:
> 
> ...


You may be happy when you see my tropics... and I'll leave it at that!

Meet you for a lunch time GTG anytime!


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> Also, this just happened - Phantom, Ghost Rider Edition.
> 
> You all can blame @Derek N.
> 
> ...


This looks SOOOOOOOO good! I was never really on board with the Phantom until I saw one in the flesh (courtesy of azsuprasm). It is a beautiful watch!

And this one ticks even a few more boxes for me...

Alas, I, like others have mentioned, do not have it in my budget for Ghost Rider.

[email protected], even just typing that makes me want it more. The name is PERFECT!!! Hate to say "negative" to Ghost Rider!!!

Might have to rethink my budget... and quickly!!!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Dod-gast it! Let my Fannums go and really regretting it, and now this! Ghost Rider. No money at all. At least I still have the C300 and Scorpène.


----------



## Derek N (Jun 12, 2006)

docvail said:


> Also, this just happened - Phantom, Ghost Rider Edition.
> 
> You all can blame @Derek N.


I'll take full blame on this one. : )

Honestly guys, this has to be one of my favorite mods; it is a stunner in the flesh. And with the Ghost Rider sandwich dial on this one, it will look even more stunning! I am glad it is being offered in both SS and DLC, this design compliments both finishes.



I was really hoping that this would have been released later this year; as I have depleted my watch spending budget pursuing a grail watch build. Looks like I am going to be selling a watch or two on the sales corner soon. Good luck Chris on the Ghost Rider!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Completely unrelated, I wanted to post this for anyone interested. You may need to be a member of the Micro Brand Sales group on Facebook in order to see it, but maybe not. If so, send them a request to join.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/147787725590811?view=permalink&id=395132657522982

That's Lee Dowell, owner of Schmutz watches, an honest to goodness trained watchmaker, and a friend of mine (he'll be assembling the Ghost Riders for me).

The watch being sold is the sort of thing I'm always interested to see, a one-off view into what might have been in some alternate reality (sort of like a Commander 300 based on the Phantom case).

As he described it, it's visually very similar to a Scurfa diver, but with a ceramic bezel and automatic movement. As a watchmaker, he's gone the extra step to warranty it, which is unusual for a one-off prototype. Seems like a pretty good deal at $300. Not many like it at 40mm.

You tap the talk. Do you wap the walk?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Derek, unless there's another guy with your name living in Hawaii, I sent you a friend request on FB last night. I posted the Ghost Rider to a few groups, and while I mentioned your name in at least one of the discussions, I wasn't able to tag you.

You tap the talk. Do you wap the walk?


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

CMA22inc said:


> Doc,
> While I appreciate your suggestions, please leave the details of D.D.C club affairs "secret handshakes" and such to me. I got this.
> 
> Further, I could draft a detailed, personable, and logical response about how we can't do a "nifty lapel pin" as it defeats the whole purpose of a secret club but, I digress.
> ...


Leave the handshakes and lapel pins. Now that you've got yourselves organized in a club, you might have some leverage to request a D.D.C club special edition from doc.

Sent by 2 thumbs.


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

A few quick pics of the NTH Antilles, just arrived

























Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Derek N (Jun 12, 2006)

docvail said:


> Derek, unless there's another guy with your name living in Hawaii, I sent you a friend request on FB last night. I posted the Ghost Rider to a few groups, and while I mentioned your name in at least one of the discussions, I wasn't able to tag you.
> 
> You tap the talk. Do you wap the walk?


Sorry Chris, I'm not much of a social media kinda guy. I did get your email though with the heads up; thank you!


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I am new this whole world of watches I did not believe even existed and now I am seeing a brand being made before all our eyes and the designers and owners of these brands are even talking to the their disciples. I find it amazing and incredible that you guys are for the most part a fun loving, positive group. I think my love for watches is growing not from all these beautiful watch pics but the comradery that each of you all bestow upon each other.

Now DAMN IT I am going to start saving for 1 of Doc's watches. Not only are they a beaut but he cares enough to come and talk openly. Bravo Sir...Bravo!!!!


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Damn. I really liked that commander dial in the phantom case, I mean REALLY liked it. This new watch is cool, but that helmet on the dial and no orthos wavey logo is throwing me off. I kinda wish the helmet wasn't there at all and it just said phantom.

Either way with or without me I have no doubts it will sell out, but I gotta do a gut check... tempting tempting tempting.

Edit: Okay Doc you SOB you have more of my money again. Fortunately I had plenty of points to score a discount. Seriously though, I wouldn't mind if you dropped the helmet off the dial, or if needed I can sacrifice a bucket of KFC or something to get you to add the wavey orthos logo?


----------



## goody2141 (Jul 24, 2013)

docvail said:


> Also, this just happened - Phantom, Ghost Rider Edition.
> 
> You all can blame @Derek N.
> 
> ...


Ha. When the Commander was first being discussed I said it should use the Phantom case and not the Orthos. Now look it at. Looks great Doc.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> Damn. I really liked that commander dial in the phantom case, I mean REALLY liked it. This new watch is cool, but that helmet on the dial and no orthos wavey logo is throwing me off. I kinda wish the helmet wasn't there at all and it just said phantom.
> 
> Either way with or without me I have no doubts it will sell out, but I gotta do a gut check... tempting tempting tempting.
> 
> Edit: Okay Doc you SOB you have more of my money again. Fortunately I had plenty of points to score a discount. Seriously though, I wouldn't mind if you dropped the helmet off the dial, or if needed I can sacrifice a bucket of KFC or something to get you to add the wavey orthos logo?


Reads semi-angry rant about not wanting suggestions for design changes.

Buys the watch. Suggests design changes.

You guys all see this, right?


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Reads semi-angry rant about not wanting suggestions for design changes.
> 
> Buys the watch. Suggests design changes.
> 
> You guys all see this, right?


I see nothing
I was not here
I did not even get up this morning






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hah! Good old Schultzy...

You tap the talk. Do you wap the walk?


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Reads semi-angry rant about not wanting suggestions for design changes.
> 
> Buys the watch. Suggests design changes.
> 
> You guys all see this, right?


I never said I wasn't a card carrying member of the DDC. I guess I will just keep all this KFC for myself!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> I never said I wasn't a card carrying member of the DDC. I guess I will just keep all this KFC for myself!


It always cracks me up when someone with a user name that suggests one part of the world, not the US, tells me they bought something, then I go and look at my order queue, and it's Bob Smith from Dayton, Ohio, or someplace equally Americana.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> It always cracks me up when someone with a user name that suggests one part of the world, not the US, tells me they bought something, then I go and look at my order queue, and it's Bob Smith from Dayton, Ohio, or someplace equally Americana.


People got to have aspirations, Doc

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> People got to have aspirations, Doc
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can't they have them somewhere else? Why here?


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> It always cracks me up when someone with a user name that suggests one part of the world, not the US, tells me they bought something, then I go and look at my order queue, and it's Bob Smith from Dayton, Ohio, or someplace equally Americana.


Where I get a chuckle out of is when people say "so you are in Sweden right?" and I get to reply "My location is definitely not Sweden, so why do you think I am in Sweden?" As for my username, well there is a long boring story that has a lot to do with a fascination with history and studying the Ottoman Empire. I would rather not put the forums to sleep though


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> Why I get a chuckle out of is when people say "so you are in Sweden right?" and I get to reply "My location is definitely not Sweden, so why do you think I am in Sweden?" As for my username, well there is a long boring story that has a lot to do with a fascination with history and studying the Ottoman Empire. I would rather not put the forums to sleep though


Ironic.

The name of my company, "Janis" comes from "Janissary" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries

I loved their story when I heard of it, particularly the revenge/comeuppance aspect of it, how the descendants of boys taken and pressed into military slavery rose up and helped weaken an empire, and the strength of their resolve.

In my convoluted thinking, it played into the same themes which led to "Lew & Huey", a phonetic spin on the Mandarin phrase, luen huey, which literally means reincarnation or rebirth, but to me is less interesting than the figurative concept of people reinventing themselves, and overcoming setbacks, being "born again" from the ashes of their past lives.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

I had to chuckle. "Janistrading" put me off for quite a while, because i I know a guy named "Janis", to whom I don't have the best memories. It took quite a while for me to get past that ambivalence...


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## SigmaPiJiggy (Mar 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Ironic.
> 
> The name of my company, "Janis" comes from "Janissary" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries
> 
> I loved their story when I heard of it, particularly the revenge/comeuppance aspect of it, how the descendants of boys taken and pressed into military slavery rose up and helped weaken an empire, and the strength of their resolve.


I always thought it was this guy- from Goldeneye.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 760274 (Jul 24, 2015)

docvail said:


> So this past weekend, that's what I did. I drafted a handful of standardized, cut-and-dry, hopefully inoffensively bland form-letters which I plan to send as a response to anyone who insists on ignoring all my public statements regarding the above.
> 
> Now I can stop stressing out over injecting a sense of my annoyance into my replies, and get back to doing what I need to do to run my business and maintain my sanity.


Congrats, this makes life on this end so much easier. The only possible solution to the problem that it has become to easy to contact a company. 
Congrats also on the Phantom/Commander mash up. Looooove the two tone lume!


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Well, well, well, what's all this, then?


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

SigmaPiJiggy said:


> I always thought it was this guy- from Goldeneye.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yeah that's the guy who tried to pass himself off as a former SAS Soldier in Ronin, got ambushed by a cup of coffee lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

VMarks, you are a very very bad man.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Tanjecterly said:


> VMarks, you are a very very bad man.












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

vmarks said:


>


Yes, you. Come, and dance with me to the "Song of the Summer".

Outstanding reference, vmarks!


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*










Ostriches!


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Must be nice to have all the pre-prod variants sent to you in one big box to play with...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Slant said:


> Must be nice to have all the pre-prod variants sent to you in one big box to play with...


If you mean Victor, there, he only got two.

I sent two to The Time Bum, and one to another blogger, along with one of the original Subs.

I sent 4 of the Tropics out on Whirled Tour, but to four different guys. Two stayed here with me, because their bezel action is kind of wonky, and I don't want people messing with them.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

docvail said:


> Ironic.
> 
> The name of my company, "Janis" comes from "Janissary" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries
> 
> I loved their story when I heard of it, particularly the revenge/comeuppance aspect of it, how the descendants of boys taken and pressed into military slavery rose up and helped weaken an empire, and the strength of their resolve.


Utterly off-topic, but 'The Religion' by Tim Willocks is one of my all-time favourite books. A dude gets kidnapped by Ottoman Turks somewhere in the Balkans and becomes a Janissary. He escapes and becomes a badass mercenary / trader / swashbuckler. Book is about the Siege of Valetta and it's absolutely brilliant.

https://www.amazon.com/Religion-Tannhauser-Trilogy-Tim-Willocks/dp/0765357550

You may now return to your scheduled watch conversation.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Slant said:


> Must be nice to have all the pre-prod variants sent to you in one big box to play with...


I appreciate the privilege for whatever happens to arrive here, and share it with you. If you'd rather I not share it, I can avoid posting photos.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



vmarks said:


> I appreciate the privilege for whatever happens to arrive here, and share it with you. If you'd rather I not share it, I can avoid posting photos.


"Yes, as a matter of fact, I do remember how the train wreck started..."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

That moment you realize the silly question from random internet stranger is just one of your friends trolling you on Instagram...


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> "Yes, as a matter of fact, I do remember how the train wreck started..."


"We were somewhere around Barstow on the edge of the desert when the drugs began to take hold."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dial pics from the factory, every bit as amazing as they usually are...

































"Doc, any other pictures to share?"

"No."

That's all they sent me.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> "Doc, any other pictures to share?"
> 
> "No."
> 
> That's all they sent me.


You sure, sure??😅

Tapatalked using my GS7Edge


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

vmarks said:


> Well, well, well, what's all this, then?


Looks
So
Good!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Utterly off-topic, but 'The Religion' by Tim Willocks is one of my all-time favourite books. A dude gets kidnapped by Ottoman Turks somewhere in the Balkans and becomes a Janissary. He escapes and becomes a badass mercenary / trader / swashbuckler. Book is about the Siege of Valetta and it's absolutely brilliant.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Religion-Tannhauser-Trilogy-Tim-Willocks/dp/0765357550
> 
> You may now return to your scheduled watch conversation.


I may check it out. I like some historical fiction, but I'm not sure how much I'd like the medieval period as a backdrop. I enjoyed the first Ethan Gage novel by William Dietrich, set in the late 1700's, but can't remember anything about the second, which I'm pretty sure I read, but maybe I decided not to after reading the description. I don't like to get sucked into reading an entire series if I can avoid it.

Since starting my business, I haven't been able to read nearly as much as I used to. Other than the next GoT installment - whenever that old coot gets around to finishing it - there isn't much I've been dying to read.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Dat Jubilee doe!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

docvail said:


> I may check it out. I like some historical fiction, but I'm not sure how much I'd like the medieval period as a backdrop. I enjoyed the first Ethan Gage novel by William Dietrich, set in the late 1700's, but can't remember anything about the second, which I'm pretty sure I read, but maybe I decided not to after reading the description. I don't like to get sucked into reading an entire series if I can avoid it.
> 
> Since starting my business, I haven't been able to read nearly as much as I used to. Other than the next GoT installment - whenever that old coot gets around to finishing it - there isn't much I've been dying to read.


The first book of the Ethan Gage series was a good read. The second book sucked and the sequels appeared to suck even more.

The Malta book mentioned above is great. A good perspective on the Janissaries, internal Ottoman politics, Venetian and Spanish and especially Knights of Malta intrigues. You are in the middle of the siege with idiot leaders, and what do you do? You go out and fight on the walls and make sure your leaders don't stab you in the back.

There are many other historical fiction that I can recommend -- Christian Cameron and Bernard Cornwell are two very good authors with wide ranging military history fiction from the Greek-Persian Wars to Saxon England's wars against the Danes.

I also am a sucker for historical fiction in the detective genre. But I digress.

Seriously Doc, if you sell left handed crown watches, you'll stand out among the micro brands!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> ...you'll stand out among the micro brands!


I don't already?


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

You do, yes sir. You do.



docvail said:


> I don't already?


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Slant said:


> Must be nice to have all the pre-prod variants sent to you in one big box to play with...


It is quite nice having a big box of things sent to you too play with. 









Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> Other than the next GoT installment - whenever that old coot gets around to finishing it


Here's to hoping he doesn't go the way of Robert Jordan and DIE BEFORE HE FINISHES IT/THEM!!!

I'm with you on that one Doc. Been waiting for a LONG time now!


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Utterly off-topic, but 'The Religion' by Tim Willocks is one of my all-time favourite books. A dude gets kidnapped by Ottoman Turks somewhere in the Balkans and becomes a Janissary. He escapes and becomes a badass mercenary / trader / swashbuckler. Book is about the Siege of Valetta and it's absolutely brilliant.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Religion-Tannhauser-Trilogy-Tim-Willocks/dp/0765357550
> 
> You may now return to your scheduled watch conversation.


Sounds pretty solid, like Doc I haven't had the time lately to read like I used to. Sounds like a decent justification to spend some time in the reading chair!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jelliottz said:


> It is quite nice having a big box of things sent to you too play with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For those of you who have no idea what is going on in this pic, full story (sort of) here:

The Brotherhood of Submariner Homages (a/k/a BSHT) (Part XX) - Page 97

here - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/brot...s-k-bsht-part-xx-4122570-98.html#post40187786

and here - The Brotherhood of Submariner Homages (a/k/a BSHT) (Part XX) - Page 98

If you're not already a member of the Divers Watches or Microbrands groups on Facebook, you'll want to join. I just opened up the box with all those watches in it before dinner tonight, and they're all pretty amazing one-off Frankenmods.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

^^^ I like the one with the black dial on the top left. Looks like an oldie Omega Seamaster. Where is it from?


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

The blue dial and the california dial with vintage lume look nice. I have to ask... Should I feel bad that when I read those thread titles I read BSHT as Bull****?


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

The Scorpmaster is full of win. When will preorders begin? ;-)


----------



## smille76 (May 3, 2013)

Tanjecterly said:


> Seriously Doc, if you sell left handed crown watches, you'll stand out among the micro brands!


Not sure. This guy did try it and went out of buisness IIRC.









Sent from my SHIELD Tablet using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> ^^^ I like the one with the black dial on the top left. Looks like an oldie Omega Seamaster. Where is it from?


If you mean the watch, read the posts I linked to, and it'll all make sense. If you just mean the dial, ask John (Jelliottz).



Karkarov said:


> The blue dial and the california dial with vintage lume look nice. I have to ask... Should I feel bad that when I read those thread titles I read BSHT as Bull****?


No, you shouldn't feel bad, it's entirely intentional. "BSHT" stands for Best Submariner Homage Thread, or "Brotherhood" of Submariner Homages Thread.

I made sure to post a cheeky comment in the first half dozen or so, suggesting it stood for "Brothers and Sisters Hanging Together (an incest-survivor's support group)", and other such nonsense, but they wore me out with so many threads (that's the 19th, not the 20th), and I ran out of silly acronyms to throw at them.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> I made sure to post a cheeky comment in the first half dozen or so, suggesting it stood for "Brothers and Sisters Hanging Together (an incest-survivor's support group)", and other such nonsense, but they wore me out with so many threads (that's the 19th, not the 20th), and I ran out of silly acronyms to throw at them.


Reminds me of the time I was at work and my boss asked me and another guy to come up with a new acronym based name for a tool we were developing. After ISHT, IFAP, and my personal favorite, just plain old CRAP, he told us we could move on to other projects.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

That left double crowned H Anchor N brand SELLITNA is pretty hot.

Why you holdin out on us Doc?

Also @Tanjecterly your DDC dues are past due. I'm sure just an over site on your part.



Tanjecterly said:


> The first book of the Ethan Gage series was a good read. The second book sucked and the sequels appeared to suck even more.
> 
> The Malta book mentioned above is great. A good perspective on the Janissaries, internal Ottoman politics, Venetian and Spanish and especially Knights of Malta intrigues. You are in the middle of the siege with idiot leaders, and what do you do? You go out and fight on the walls and make sure your leaders don't stab you in the back.
> 
> ...


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> The blue dial and the california dial with vintage lume look nice. I have to ask... Should I feel bad that when I read those thread titles I read BSHT as Bull****?


Absolutely not. 😉

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

That is some cool stuff.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Jelliottz,

Could you post what the "mash-up" or mod is for each of those? I can figure some out, but others not so much. Pretty awesome work though!


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

jelliottz said:


> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


Want.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> Jelliottz,
> 
> Could you post what the "mash-up" or mod is for each of those? I can figure some out, but others not so much. Pretty awesome work though!


Did that:



docvail said:


> For those of you who have no idea what is going on in this pic, full story (sort of) here:
> 
> The Brotherhood of Submariner Homages (a/k/a BSHT) (Part XX) - Page 97
> 
> ...


You tap the talk. Do you wap the walk?


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kendalw3 said:


> Jelliottz,
> 
> Could you post what the "mash-up" or mod is for each of those? I can figure some out, but others not so much. Pretty awesome work though!


Happy to elaborate. The NTH cases have Miyota 9015s. The Orthos cases have NH35As.

1) NTH case with reject bezel insert sample with red paint added. Homage to the Rolex Zerograph. Custom leather by Sona Straps.









2) NTH Santa Cruz case with Explorer dial and Ranger hands. Strapcode oyster bracelet.









3) NTH case with reject bezel insert sample, military field dial (relumed) Scorpene prototype hands. Janis Trading vanilla scented rubber strap.









4) NTH Nacken Modern case, Explorer II dial (relumed) and Plongeur hands. Let&H Riccardo leather strap and deployant.









5) NTH Scorpene case, SMP dial (relumed), Amphion hands (relumed). Strapcode oyster bracelet. 









6) Orthos I case, Orthos II insert, Black Bay Bronze dial and hands (rose gold version). Stainless sharkmesh bracelet. 









7) Orthos II case and insert, Phantom B-dial (relumed), Orthos II hands. Phantom leather bomber strap. 









Hope these wind up in good homes.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

docvail said:


> I may check it out. I like some historical fiction, but I'm not sure how much I'd like the medieval period as a backdrop.


Well, the Siege of Valletta was 1565, so it's not _really_ Medieval. Lots of muskets and cannon.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

CMA22inc said:


> Also @Tanjecterly your DDC dues are past do. I'm sure just an over site on your part.


I thought I was already pre-blackballed from the DDC. But if the dues are past due, the check's in the mail!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Muskets, cannon, swords, halberds, knives, garrotes, and the good old standby, poison.



LordBrettSinclair said:


> Well, the Siege of Valletta was 1565, so it's not _really_ Medieval. Lots of muskets and cannon.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jelliottz said:


> Happy to elaborate. The NTH cases have Miyota 9015s. The Orthos cases have NH35As.
> 
> 1) NTH case with reject bezel insert sample with red paint added. Homage to the Rolex Zerograph. Custom leather by Sona Straps.
> 
> ...


There's a big box of voided warranties.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

I hate you Doc!

When the Barracuda was announced I expected some Rolex wannabe ******** with a weak ass brown:










Which looks even poorer on sunlight:










And then you give us this:










WTF man?, can't you have pity of my wallet and do a week, vomit tone brown just like every "homage" watch out there?

This way I could have bought the Nacken Modern on Blue and be perfectly happy. But nooooo!!!! you had to design a strong brown color with a deep and gorgeous sunlight reflection.










Tell me, how am I supposed to decide now?, please tell me that the finishing of the hands on the Barracuda is rough and sharp so I can make my mind.

Not cool man, not cool at all.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hawkeye86 said:


> There's a big box of voided warranties.


None of them started life as assembled production pieces. They're all made from prototypes or replacement parts, so there were no warranties to start.

I swear, guys, if you click the third link in my post about these, I gave a detailed account of the L&H/NTH parts used in each watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> ...please tell me that the finishing of the hands on the Barracuda is rough and sharp so I can make my mind.


The hands were all soaked in palmolive dish soap, which actually softens hands as you do dishes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> I hate you Doc!
> 
> When the Barracuda was announced I expected some Rolex wannabe ******** with a weak ass brown:
> 
> ...


By the way, that's why I've been thinking of it as "Birch Beer", rather than dreary old, buy it anywhere "Root Beer".


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> By the way, that's why I've been thinking of it as "Birch Beer", rather than dreary old, buy it anywhere "Root Beer".


I was actually thinking in "Stout Beer", but I'm perfectly fine with Birch Beer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> The hands were all soaked in palmolive dish soap, which actually softens hands as you do dishes.


A very old technique, here is a painting documenting the first failed "palmolive wash" prototypes around 1931


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Doc what are the bezels made from. Aluminium inserts? Will they fade?


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



LordBrettSinclair said:


> Doc what are the bezels made from. Aluminium inserts? Will they fade?


Stainless steel.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

R.A.D. said:


> A very old technique, here is a painting documenting the first failed "palmolive wash" prototypes around 1931


It's true. We had to hire sherpas and trek to the height of the Himalayas to find the last living craftsman who knew the proper technique. He hadn't spoken a word or seen another human in years. His first words to us were, "did you bring...any...cheeseburgers?"

We also injected our lume with radioactive space dust from a meteorite that landed in Siberia 10,000 years ago, used dwarf gnomes (yes, DWARF gnomes, which are smaller than regular gnomes) to polish our indices, and invented our own metal alloy to use for the movement spacer, which is also of our own very special, proprietary design.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



LordBrettSinclair said:


> Doc what are the bezels made from. Aluminium inserts? Will they fade?





vmarks said:


> Stainless steel.


Stainless steel, PVD coated (DLC if they're black).

Fade? I suppose given enough time and exposure to light, maybe, but I'd think the dials would show the effects before the bezels, since the dials are printed, rather than coated with a solid material, like a PVD coating.

In my inquiries into the topic of dial/bezel fade, the info I found suggested that the more vibrant colors like blue and orange are more prone to sun-fading than black or white, due to the pigments used, and other science-type stuff.


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Completely unrelated to anything...

When we were at Universal Studios, FL earlier in the month, we caught the tail-end of the "Blues Brothers" performance. 

I had to explain the Blues Brothers to my sons, who've never seen an episode of Saturday Night Live, never heard of John Belushi or Dan Akroyd, and had no basis for understanding improv comedians who became sketch comedians who took on aliases to become a musical act, becoming huge stars in the process, then making a blockbuster film that was both comedy and musical, with more cameos than you could count from iconic musicians neither of them had ever heard of, and achieving cult film status, which is why they were watching these two guys in black suits and hats dancing around some 37 years later, and why it was awesome.

So this past weekend, my 14-year-old and I sat down to watch the movie together.

Have any of you watched that movie since becoming watch-geeks? I lost count of how many watch-related gags or mere mentions were in the film, but after the first few, my son started pointing them out to me, and asking what the deal was. It had been at least a decade since I last watched the movie, so I'd never noticed it before.

The property returned to Jake as he's being released from prison includes a broken Timex, which he wears, and checks, throughout the movie. Elwood's watch is broken some time later, but that doesn't stop him from checking it periodically, either. "They broke my watch" seemed to be the go-to punchline for every car-chase/car-wreck.

Not that I think anyone involved in making the movie was a closet watch-geek. It just becomes a funnier movie if you are a watch-geek, and you notice those little throwaway gags. Anyone who isn't a watch-geek, and is more likely to forget that the watches are broken, isn't going to laugh every time someone looks at their watch for the time, and acts as if there was useful information there.

WIS Cinema at its finest...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HAGWE EVERYBODY!









This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

docvail said:


> It's true. We had to hire sherpas and trek to the height of the Himalayas to find the last living craftsman who knew the proper technique. He hadn't spoken a word or seen another human in years. His first words to us were, "did you bring...any...cheeseburgers?"
> 
> We also injected our lume with radioactive space dust from a meteorite that landed in Siberia 10,000 years ago, used dwarf gnomes (yes, DWARF gnomes, which are smaller than regular gnomes) to polish our indices, and invented our own metal alloy to use for the movement spacer, which is also of our own very special, proprietary design.


Do dwarf gnomes like watches or just shiny objects?

Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jlow28 said:


> Do dwarf gnomes like watches or just shiny objects?
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


They're the only ones with hands small enough to operate the tiny polishing machines.

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> HAGWE EVERYBODY!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that may be illigal in at least 5 states and 3 countries.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I am new this whole world of watches I did not believe even existed and now I am seeing a brand being made before all our eyes and the designers and owners of these brands are even talking to the their disciples. I find it amazing and incredible that you guys are for the most part a fun loving, positive group. I think my love for watches is growing not from all these beautiful watch pics but the comradery that each of you all bestow upon each other.
> 
> Now DAMN IT I am going to start saving for 1 of Doc's watches. Not only are they a beaut but he cares enough to come and talk openly. Bravo Sir...Bravo!!!!


This is overdue.

Welcome to the party, Bob. If you're here, this advice is probably too late, but in case it's not, jam your wallet into your pocket as deep as it will go and run away. This "hobby" quickly becomes an addiction.

If it is too late, well, there are worse places on the web, and even the forum, to hang out, and we are a fairly chill bunch, altogether, notwithstanding my occasional rambling manifestos, the occasional troll/hater popping in, and the occasional disagreement/misunderstanding needing to be broken up before the neighbors call the cops.

One point of clarification, though. I cringe to read any description of my friends/customers as overzealous fanboys, much less "disciples". It makes me feel weird, and gives the haters more license to dismiss me and them.

I'm really a very regular guy, and just happen to enjoy killing an hour or so each day shooting the $h1t with some friends online. If some money gets made in the process, and we have a few laughs, all the better.

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Some sound advice and while it might be a bit late, it is still refreshing to know that it will get better lol. Thanks again foe all you do and I enjoy reading your rants, diatribes, and feelings no matter how harsh they seem at the time. I understand that everyone else needs to just let go. 
Take care and I look forward to seeing all your creations. 
p. s. Tehehe I had a maker address me...


docvail said:


> This is overdue.
> 
> Welcome to the party, Bob. If you're here, this advice is probably too late, but in case it's not, jam your wallet into your pocket as deep as it will go and run away. This "hobby" quickly becomes an addiction.
> 
> ...


Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## ebtromba (Oct 18, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jelliottz said:


> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


Wait. You make the dials too?


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ebtromba said:


> Wait. You make the dials too?


I relumed some of these, but I didn't make them. They're off the shelf items.

I have, however, been known to make a dial or two. ;-)

















Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> I'm really a very regular guy, and just happen to enjoy killing an hour or so each day shooting the $h1t with some friends online. If some money gets made in the process, and we have a few laughs, all the better.


"An hour or so..." Oh that's rich. Thanks man. I needed a good laugh.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

New NTH Subs: Amphion Dark Gilt and Barracuda | The Time Bum


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)

It has been a long time since I took the phantom out of the box for the last time. Love so much the distortions of the plexi.


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

NTH Antilles and Anchor & Crew bracelet









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Looks like the latest Tapatalk update gave me a refresh on the thread image...










This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone interested in those JZ Frankenmods, the auctions just went live:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/microbrandwatches/permalink/476241445833396/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/DiversWatches/permalink/1636168586411427/


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> For anyone interested in those JZ Frankenmods, the auctions just went live:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/microbrandwatches/permalink/476241445833396/
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/DiversWatches/permalink/1636168586411427/


Actually dusted off an old FB account to check these out however it looks like I am not part of the "in" crowd. :think:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Actually dusted off an old FB account to check these out however it looks like I am not part of the "in" crowd. :think:


I just told the admin to let you in.

I think your lack of pics and other FB footprint made them suspicious.

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Actually dusted off an old FB account to check these out however it looks like I am not part of the "in" crowd. :think:





docvail said:


> I just told the admin to let you in.
> 
> I think your lack of pics and other FB footprint made them suspicious.
> 
> This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


Ugh. Resend your request. He'd already deleted it. I told him you were cool. Don't make me look bad by double dipping in the salsa.

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> For anyone interested in those JZ Frankenmods, the auctions just went live:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/microbrandwatches/permalink/476241445833396/
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/DiversWatches/permalink/1636168586411427/


Ah but where is that auction for the california dial with the red coloring on the bezel? Is it diver group only?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> Ah but where is that auction for the california dial with the red coloring on the bezel? Is it diver group only?


That's the one JZ kept. I told him he could keep one for himself as payment.

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Ugh. Resend your request. He'd already deleted it. I told him you were cool. Don't make me look bad by double dipping in the salsa.
> 
> This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


Resent. WUS is really my only online presence. Not sure why I ever made a Facebook account but I in I killed it soon after. I did recently make an Instagram account to oogle kewl watches.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Resent. WUS is really my only online presence. Not sure why I ever made a Facebook account but I in I killed it soon after. I did recently make an Instagram account to oogle kewl watches.


I was off FB for about five years, and only went back for business. It's a huge time-suck, and other than the watch groups, it's pretty much a cesspool of impenetrable idiocy.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Love my Cerberus!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> That's the one JZ kept. I told him he could keep one for himself as payment.
> 
> This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


Sorry for delayed response, I had to cry myself to sleep in a corner. I can't blame JZ though, in his place I would have taken the same one. My hunt for a really cool california dial watch never ends!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I have found again why I can't stand facebook. :-x I need to figure out a way to filter out things on their.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> Love my Cerberus!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My Cerberus says hi!









Tapatalked using my GS7Edge


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> I have found again why I can't stand facebook. :-x I need to figure out a way to filter out things on their.


If you're talking about group notifications (they annoy the hell out of me), you can turn them off within the group info/settings menu of each group.

If you're on a PC, just click on "Notifications" within the group's banner image. I'll edit this post with screen shots from my mobile in a second, but go to "info", then "notification settings".


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> If you're talking about group notifications (they annoy the hell out of me), you can turn them off within the group info/settings menu of each group.
> 
> If you're on a PC, just click on "Notifications" within the group's banner image. I'll edit this post with screen shots from my mobile in a second, but go to "info", then "notification settings".


Thanks for the info. I am actually more so referring to the "people I may know" suggestions. A whole lot of things I do not want to see. Whats actually very freaky is that facebook actually threw a few suggestions at me of people I actually have known. Not real comfortable with that level of intuition(?) on facebooks part.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> Thanks for the info. I am actually more so referring to the "people I may know" suggestions. A whole lot of things I do not want to see. Whats actually very freaky is that facebook actually threw a few suggestions at me of people I actually have known. Not real comfortable with that level of intuition(?) on facebooks part.


They base their algorithm on underwear size.

It's amazing what they know about us.

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> They base their algorithm on underwear size.
> 
> It's amazing what they know about us.
> 
> This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


Looks like I need to add a few more layers of foil to my hat. :think:

I did figure out how to close the suggestion window. |>

I am so glad I grew up way before facebook and the rest of the online world.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> It's amazing what they know about us.


They do things like run credit checks on users and then link that all up to users never telling what they know. See https://www.propublica.org/article/facebook-doesnt-tell-users-everything-it-really-knows-about-them

That's why I won't use FB... so, is there any chance that someone could let us know what those FB links pointed to? Or, better reproduce whatever was on those pages onto a place visible to non-FB users... Please...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



fearlessleader said:


> They do things like run credit checks on users and then link that all up to users never telling what they know. See https://www.propublica.org/article/facebook-doesnt-tell-users-everything-it-really-knows-about-them
> 
> That's why I won't use FB... so, is there any chance that someone could let us know what those FB links pointed to? Or, better reproduce whatever was on those pages onto a place visible to non-FB users... Please...


The links were to the auctions being held in two groups on FB. The auctions are for the 6 Frankenmods Jelliottz made. There were pics posted here within the last few pages, as well as some details regarding what went into each watch. I also posted links to posts in the BSHT thread, where there was further info provided, by both JZ and me.

You're not missing anything. It's all there.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> For anyone interested in those JZ Frankenmods, the auctions just went live:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/microbrandwatches/permalink/476241445833396/
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/DiversWatches/permalink/1636168586411427/


Requested to joing Microbrand Wathces (accepted). Found post for auction, which sent me to the Dive Watch group. Now requested to join that group too.

Once accepted there, I will have joined 3 FB groups in the past 2 weeks from links posted here by Doc.

Doc, you are such an enabler!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Incoming! Thanks Jelliottz and Doc. Great auction for a worthy cause.



jelliottz said:


>


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Incoming! Thanks Jelliottz and Doc. Great auction for a worthy cause.


Congratulations! That was one of my top two favorites.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm chewing my guts that the Scorpmaster went for only $350. That's a fecking ridiculous deal. That watch is ridonkulous. At least the Sexplorer, my other favorite, got to $400.

Nice job on all of them, John. Congrats to the unrelated Jones brothers, Dave and Bill, on their winning bids on the Sea Lander and Nexplorer 2.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

That Scorpmaster really caught my eye as well however the Borthos won me over. Very excited to get my hands on a great looking one off watch. Props Doc and Jelliottz for putting all this together. |>


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I have to many on the way other wise I would have bid more. I did put in a couple but common sense prevailed unfortunately... At least the money goes to something that gives to others and helps.

Congrats to all who won and to Doc & his gang for doing something good.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone who didn't see my comment on FB about it...

The last few times I've done an auction here on WUS, one of our mutual friends has very generously offered to match the winning bid(s) and make an equivalent donation to the same charity. He did the same thing this time, matching the winning bids on all 6 auctions.

Obviously, he doesn't want any recognition, choosing instead to remain anonymous. 

Candidly, doing those auctions isn't a bad thing for my business. It increases market awareness of my brands, and makes me look like something less than a complete jerk. I always feel like I'm making a much-needed donation to my good Karma account, but that's something I could also do making a private donation. 

I like to do these auctions because I think they're a fun distraction from the usual discussions, they bring people together and remind us that there's more to life than this hobby. I was excited to see what JZ would create from a box of parts and prototypes. But most importantly, there's the multiplier effect. 

Between the winning bids, and the generous match from our anonymous friend, we'll raise over $4,000 for two worthy causes. Let's say it's about $700/watch, all-in, including the match. 

That's not a donation I could afford to make on my own, so donating a watch for the auction benefits the cause more than me just cutting a check for a much more modest amount, and it's more than what the watches cost me, so that's why I do them.

Hopefully it also makes others aware of organizations like Heifer and the ASCPCA, and the good work they do. 

Not a bad way to kill a few hours over a couple of days, eh?


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Happy to be a part of it, Chris. Putting some good out into the world is never a bad thing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jelliottz said:


> Happy to be a part of it, Chris. Putting some good out into the world is never a bad thing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Seriously, how pissed would you be if I made a Zerograph version of the Subs? On a scale of "Grrrr" to "I keel you!", what are we looking at?

PS - Any chance you remember the source of that mesh bracelet? It's pretty impressive. I never knew I wanted one before trying on Black Borthos.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Seriously, how pissed would you be if I made a Zerograph version of the Subs? On a scale of "Grrrr" to "I keel you!", what are we looking at?
> 
> PS - Any chance you remember the source of that mesh bracelet? It's pretty impressive. I never knew I wanted one before trying on Black Borthos.


I'm sure another trip to "the room" and plenty of Snackers bars should be able to sway him.


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Seriously, how pissed would you be if I made a Zerograph version of the Subs? On a scale of "Grrrr" to "I keel you!", what are we looking at?
> 
> PS - Any chance you remember the source of that mesh bracelet? It's pretty impressive. I never knew I wanted one before trying on Black Borthos.


Make one! I'm all for it. No anger here.

Pretty sure I bought it on amazon. I'll dig up the link. *Edit* https://www.amazon.com/Ritche-22mm-Stainless-Shark-Mesh/dp/B010H4KZIU

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Remember this from the first batch of subs - you can't take a bad photo of it:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMFord said:


> Remember this from the first batch of subs - you can't take a bad photo of it:


BILL JONES: "Challenge accepted!"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jelliottz said:


> Make one! I'm all for it. No anger here.
> 
> Pretty sure I bought it on amazon. I'll dig up the link. *Edit* https://www.amazon.com/Ritche-22mm-Stainless-Shark-Mesh/dp/B010H4KZIU
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


$21???

THAT'S ridonkulous.

That bracelet has no business being that nice for $21. I can't order pizza and wings on a Friday night for $21.


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

CMFord said:


> Remember this from the first batch of subs - you can't take a bad photo of it:
> 
> View attachment 11418138


Brilliant strap Chris, where's it from?

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Good eye! It's from @AW_Leatherworks on Instagram - her quality is fantastic and the prices are very reasonable.



arrvoo said:


> Brilliant strap Chris, where's it from?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> I'm chewing my guts that the Scorpmaster went for only $350. That's a fecking ridiculous deal. That watch is ridonkulous. At least the Sexplorer, my other favorite, got to $400.
> 
> Nice job on all of them, John. Congrats to the unrelated Jones brothers, Dave and Bill, on their winning bids on the Sea Lander and Nexplorer 2.


I was very tempted to bid on both of those, as they were my favorites as well. I had to choose one, which was super dificult. Thought I'd sleep on it. But I got in too late. Congrats to the winners and awesome job Doc, jelliottz and everyone else that helped set it up. Great cause too.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jelliottz said:


> Make one! I'm all for it. No anger here.
> 
> Pretty sure I bought it on amazon. I'll dig up the link. *Edit* https://www.amazon.com/Ritche-22mm-Stainless-Shark-Mesh/dp/B010H4KZIU
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I also have this mesh strap. I like it a lot. It is currently on my Orthos.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

This pic from @j0nathanp77 is impressive.










This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Unless you ask my dog.










This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> This pic from @j0nathanp77 is impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. Glad you like it.

You're quick. I was about to post here. But you did forget the other pic. My IG post has two pics. If swipe right to left, you'll see the 2nd pic. This one...










Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Unless you ask my dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


   man he's a tough critic

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> This pic from @j0nathanp77 is impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I keep looking at this thinking that bracelet could look awesome on the Santa Fe. They are both 20mm, right? Do the lugs/case shape differ much?


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Keefy said:


> I keep looking at this thinking that bracelet could look awesome on the Santa Fe. They are both 20mm, right? Do the lugs/case shape differ much?


I can have look for you later on the Santa Cruz

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

Anyone else think a Santa Cruz/Santa Fe mashup ala white-faced Rolex 6536 would look fantastic?

Keep the white dial and vintage lume markers of the Santa Cruz, change the text and minute markers to black (maybe the depth rating in red), add the Santa Fe bezel insert and Bob's your uncle.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

WastedYears said:


> Anyone else think a Santa Cruz/Santa Fe mashup ala white-faced Rolex 6536 would look fantastic?
> 
> Keep the white dial and vintage lume markers of the Santa Cruz, change the text and minute markers to black (maybe the depth rating in red), add the Santa Fe bezel insert and Bob's your uncle.


I will keep all my comments and ideas like this to myself. You, my friend, may find yourself owing dues to the DDC if you aren't careful!!!

I was just sitting here thinking that ____________ would look awesome on ____________ by putting ___________ on the Santa Cruz dial and swapping ___________ for __________. Take some notes and lessons from the work of Master Jelliottz and do a little swapping here and some modding there.

In all seriousness, I have taken my first steps in to modding watches, and have a little project that is nearing completion. Gotta love the modability (if that isn't a word, it is now... I am a Webster after all) of the SKX007. Why do I think this is going to be, dangerous? for lack of a better word!?!


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Hey, Let me get your address and I'll drop a welcome / application packet for the DDC in the mail.



So many possibilities! I don't envy Doc on making those decisions on what to release.



WastedYears said:


> Anyone else think a Santa Cruz/Santa Fe mashup ala white-faced Rolex 6536 would look fantastic?
> 
> Keep the white dial and vintage lume markers of the Santa Cruz, change the text and minute markers to black (maybe the depth rating in red), add the Santa Fe bezel insert and Bob's your uncle.


----------



## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

You'll have to excuse my European ignorance, but I am at a loss as to what the DDC reference is.

If it's about copyright issues, I'm not that worried seeing as there's apparently some controversy about whether or not white-faced Submariners ever really existed...


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

WastedYears said:


> You'll have to excuse my European ignorance, but I am at a loss as to what the DDC reference is.
> 
> If it's about copyright issues, I'm not that worried seeing as there's apparently some controversy about whether or not white-faced Submariners ever really existed...


I don't recall what the abbreviation stands for. But basically everyone, who came up towards doc with a "nice idea, what to change" with a certain model is a member. So that means nearly everyone who owns one of his watches and has the ability to write at least complete sentences...

Yep, I am a muted member myself.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

CMA22inc said:


> Guilty and a little (lot) hard headed!
> 
> Keep doing you're thing Doc we will be here to support and encourage you but, will refrain from taking up your time and sorry!
> 
> ...


DDC explained above

All in good fun. Welcome to the club


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

According to my guy at the factory, the Antilles and Azores will be shipped to me the week of the 17th (same week we start pre-orders for the next batch of Subs).

Assuming there are no delays, we should be shipping them out by the middle of the following week (also known as "late April", the delivery time frame we targeted from the jump).


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> According to my guy at the factory, the Antilles and Azores will be shipped to me the week of the 17th (same week we start pre-orders for the next batch of Subs).
> 
> Assuming there are no delays, we should be shipping them out by the middle of the following week (also known as "late April", the delivery time frame we targeted from the jump).


I cannot wait to get my black Antilles! Getting closer...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Iliyan said:


> I cannot wait to get my black Antilles! Getting closer...


You know what else is getting closer?

The next price increase.

Prices go up $50 on Monday.

This is everyone's last chance to save $125 off the in-stock price.

After Monday, they'll cost $50 more, and then go to full price when (or before) we start shipping near the end of the month.


----------



## Mezzly (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm enjoying the sun in my Riccardo today. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mezzly said:


> I'm enjoying the sun in my Riccardo today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oy! Here's a blast from the past. Where have you been hiding, Andrew?

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Filling out DDC app now. 

Santa Cruz with a black bezel would be cool. I am going to end up with 3 of the same blue bezel not that it's a bad thing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mezzly (Feb 4, 2014)

docvail said:


> Oy! Here's a blast from the past. Where have you been hiding, Andrew?
> 
> This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


Ha, yeah I've been trying to stay away. I've had a new house and the renovation work and mortgage is eating up all my watch money. I've even had to resort to selling some of them (although I've also consolidated the collection a bit too). Anyways this place is such a den of enablers that I'd end up living in a cave with loads of watches (If you can try and imagine a pimped out Bin Laden then you're on the right lines).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mezzly said:


> Ha, yeah I've been trying to stay away. I've had a new house and the renovation work and mortgage is eating up all my watch money. I've even had to resort to selling some of them (although I've also consolidated the collection a bit too). Anyways this place is such a den of enablers that I'd end up living in a cave with loads of watches (If you can try and imagine a pimped out Bin Laden then you're on the right lines).


I was imagining Pimp Laden as soon as you went to living in a cave with your watches, so...yeah, right there witcha.

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## Mezzly (Feb 4, 2014)

docvail said:


> I was imagining Pimp Laden as soon as you went to living in a cave with your watches, so...yeah, right there witcha.
> 
> This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


It's a mental image that makes me wish my nonexistent photo shop skills were better.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mezzly said:


> It's a mental image that makes me wish my nonexistent photo shop skills were better.


Nonexistent skillz FTW!

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

People asked if the Tropics BOR bracelet would fit the subs.

Judging by the marriage of a Subs proto and a Tropics proto bracelet, the short answer is "probably, yes (assuming the production pieces are pretty much the same)".

The longer answer is, "but don't expect it to look right (due the completely different shape of their lugs)."










This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Oy! Here's a blast from the past. Where have you been hiding, Andrew?
> 
> This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


How long has it been since you came out with the Ricardo Doc? By the time I first found your brand I think you were just winding down the release of the Orthos 2.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> How long has it been since you came out with the Ricardo Doc? By the time I first found your brand I think you were just winding down the release of the Orthos 2.


Sales started April 22, 2013.

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Hmm...so I was there with my Riccardo KS pledge thingy three months and two days after L&H sales began...and that was the watch that led to the obsession I have now. Wow. It hasn't even been four years yet!



docvail said:


> Sales started April 22, 2013.
> 
> This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMFord said:


> Hmm...so I was there with my Riccardo KS pledge thingy three months and two days after L&H sales began...and that was the watch that led to the obsession I have now. Wow. It hasn't even been four years yet!


Just two weeks shy.

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Good and you









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

The Sealander (nickname not mine). I picked this up in Doc's charity auction. Thanks again Doc, for doing that, btw. This, and five others (all different), were made from extra parts and prototype stuff by Jelliottz. Thanks also for the great work, John. So far, it's +1/day. And it's the only one....


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> The Shorelander (nickname not mine). I picked this up in Doc's charity auction. Thanks again Doc, for doing that, btw. This, and five others (all different), were made from extra parts and prototype stuff by Jelliottz. Thanks also for the great work, John. So far, it's +1/day. And it's the only one....


 Congrats! :-!

It's a *'Looker'* too....

|>|>


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)




----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

Close up of the prototype Antilles dial










Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Bow wow wow yippee yo yippee yeah









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Need to post something to distract from all these Tropics photos! Soon, the wait is almost over!

In the mean time, more cow bell!!!








Or more Santa Cruz!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Sharp!


mplsabdullah said:


> View attachment 11475474


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Rockin' the Riccardo today!


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

From a couple of days ago. Spring break in Fribourg, Switzerland.









Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## TradeKraft (Apr 11, 2014)

IG: Tradekraft


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Bluuuuuu









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Look what I got in the mail today! And the bracelet fits perfectly!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Lume shot!!!


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

Another lume shot, in this one either i was wearing my commander while following a foreign diplomat late at night or while coming back from the pub after maybe too many drinks.... You decide


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

More from Switzerland.

















Sent from my 2014818 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/janistradi...41827.157918217708689/758789570954881/?type=3

Instagram -

__
http://instagr.am/p/BS4JRAKF6A0/

*
...***...DO NOT INCLUDE ANY TEXT ABOVE THIS LINE, ONLY WHAT'S BELOW, AND ALL OF WHAT'S BELOW...***...

Win a Watch from Janis Trading Company

How to Enter:

*1. Post (or repost) any pic of any current Lew & Huey or NTH watch _with this complete text_ to _your Instagram or Facebook feed_.

2. Tag @JanisTrading and use hashtag #JanisTradingGiveaway in your post.

3. Like/Follow @JanisTrading on Facebook or Instagram (if you haven't already).

4. Create a customer account at Janis Trading Company (if you haven't already).

Enter as many times as you wish. Each post to IG or FB is a separate entry. See complete rules below.

The winner will be drawn at random on May 26, 2017, and have their choice of any in-stock Lew & Huey watch or in-stock NTH Sub, subject to inventory availability and location. See all models at Janis Trading Company.

*Giveaway Rules:
*
Giveaway is open to everyone on planet Earth. Choice of prize does not include the NTH Tropics (Antilles & Azores), sold-out models or models in pre-order. All entries must clearly show a current model produced by Lew & Huey or NTH (Acionna, Cerberus, Spectre, Orthos, Phantom, Amphion, Näcken, Santa Cruz, Oberon or Scorpène), include this complete text, tag @JanisTrading and use hashtag #JanisTradingGiveaway. In order to be eligible, the drawing winner must be following Janis Trading on Instagram or Facebook and have a customer account created at JanisTrading.com prior to our drawing.


----------



## Justaminute (Jun 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> View attachment 11512690
> 
> 
> Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/janistradi...41827.157918217708689/758789570954881/?type=3
> ...


Good luck to all...
I don't IG or FB so my loss...

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> View attachment 11512690
> 
> 
> Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/janistradi...41827.157918217708689/758789570954881/?type=3
> ...


Gee, I wonder where that big bold line in red came from?

Oh yeah! That's right! Some crazy guy that wants to win a Lew & Huey or NTH watch, but doesn't know jack about posting stuff like this on FB...

Oh wait! That was me! I'll own it!

Oh yeah... good luck to all the contestants/entries! Super cool of you Doc to do this!


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Justaminute said:


> Good luck to all...
> I don't IG or FB so my loss...


Me too... now if only a post here or a Tweet would count as an entry... since the previous Subs and Tropics sucked my budget dry.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> Gee, I wonder where that big bold line in red came from?
> 
> Oh yeah! That's right! Some crazy guy that wants to win a Lew & Huey or NTH watch, but doesn't know jack about posting stuff like this on FB...
> 
> ...


It's not just you. Failure to follow instructions is a wide spread struggle.

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fearlessleader said:


> Me too... now if only a post here or a Tweet would count as an entry... since the previous Subs and Tropics sucked my budget dry.


As I said in my response to your email last night, we're trying to get the giveaway to go viral, and increase brand awareness beyond the forum, which requires using social media. THAT'S THE POINT.

Out of curiosity, before you sent your email and posted your comment, did you stop to think HOW I'd manage a giveaway like this on the forum, or why I'd want to?

1. As I made clear with the auctions, in just the last few weeks, I'm no longer a forum sponsor. I have to be mindful not to abuse the ownership's hospitality. I can't do this stuff on WUS anymore.

2. We'll be picking the winner from IG and FB entries using that hashtag. I can quickly search IG and FB for tags. How would that work with the forum's amazingly bad search feature?

3. What's the benefit of having a bunch of people who are already customers post pics here, where everyone is already aware of my brand?

Please, stop dropping hints about your displeasure every time I do anything on FB or IG.

Please stop making it a point to say you don't participate in those networks, and demanding we repost everything here "so you can see it", instead of just clicking the links, which, in the case of Instagram, would take you to a viewable page, without having to create a user account (something I'm 100% positive I've explained to you before, when you complained about it).

You know there are things happening on those networks, things you've made a decision to miss by not participating there. That's your choice. I'm not required to limit my online activities to this forum. Quit pestering me about it. I may do more with IG and FB, where there are millions more people than here. I won't be giving into whining about it.

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

I probably missed but how will you be contacting the winners?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> I probably missed but how will you be contacting the winners?


I figure I'll post a comment to whichever is the winning post, asking the winner to contact me.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

You know you really like Doc's watches when you have the Janis Trading Coming Soon page bookmarked.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Tanjecterly said:


> You know you really like Doc's watches when you have the Janis Trading Coming Soon page bookmarked.


I thought everybody did that.


----------



## DenverBuff (May 19, 2009)

Love Doc's stuff.

But I don't Facebook or IG or Tweet either. Guess I'm toast.

Looking forward to NTH's new model just for guys like me: The "Amish Diver". Featuring a special automatic movement that can be wound only by vigorous butter churning and cow milking.


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

Tanjecterly said:


> You know you really like Doc's watches when you have the Janis Trading Coming Soon page bookmarked.


or when you set an alarm for 3am, to be ready for 4am, to then realise you are 24hrs early. Well its the 17th over here! I'm going back to bed ....


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> View attachment 11512690


Thanks a lot for the giveaway!, just so we are clear i should only copy and post the bold red text right? Thats why its bold and red....in any event i mailed you from my 7 different mail accounts to ask about it "[email protected] .com" thats me 

Seriously thank again! If i happen to win i already know which model ill clutch my teeth into....


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

Counting down to the hours when the new NTH subs go on sale. The sad thing is that I'm out to dinner when it starts so I'll have to make my excuses, and fingers crossed place my order.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Got a pre-order Blue Amphion and NOS ice white Orthos

Got my point code discount to work, -$25, 

I tried the Timebum code first, it did not work.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Got my pre-order in for a Barracuda and feeling VERY happy about that

Best wishes to everyone else for whom the great pre-order countdown has just ended!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

yankeexpress said:


> Got a Blue Amphion and ice white Orthos
> 
> Got my point code discount to work, -$25,
> 
> I tried the Timebum code first, it did not work.


First post regarding the preorders. You win one "Like".


----------



## bena87 (Mar 9, 2010)

Barracuda!

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Got a pre-order Blue Amphion and NOS ice white Orthos
> 
> Got my point code discount to work, -$25,
> 
> I tried the Timebum code first, it did not work.


Thanks for your order, Chris!

All codes are only good one time per customer. If you've already used that code on a previous order, it won't work a second time.


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

I'm in for a Barracude and a Santa Fe. Wedding anniversary gifts for me and my wife, which due to logistics mean we won't receive until the end of August! The wait will be painful!
Congrats to all those who are 'in' so far!


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

I'm in!

Had me worried as it was clocking / taking a while to get through (WiFi here not the best) but, I kept pounding away.

I really, really, really wanted to be in for a couple but, our friends with the IRS had other plans for my funds this month and dat Ghost Rider.


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

*Amphions! :-!

;-)*_ Scored on a 'Dark Gilt' and 'Vintage Blue' -- Both 'no-dates'

_Thanks Doc Vail -- You're helping me 'break in' that new-to-me CC.... :-d

|>|>


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

One Dark Gilt ordered. I reserve the right, however, to order another piece.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

I'm in for a 'cuda. First Doc watch in the stable. Can't wait to get it. 


Sent the hard way from my Commodore 64.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

In for a modern blue Nacken. Had plans for at least one more but after some soul searching I concluded that my Amphion is taking an overwhelming majority of wrist time and there was a good chance that any new watch was in peril of spending most of its days in the box. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## idrumgood (Mar 16, 2017)

July 16th can't come soon enough. Vintage Amphion Blue purchased. Super pumped.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Lumahaholic here. In for a lumilicious dial fix. :-!

July yet? :roll:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> In for a modern blue Nacken. Had plans for at least one more but after some soul searching I concluded that my Amphion is taking an overwhelming majority of wrist time and there was a good chance that any new watch was in peril of spending most of its days in the box.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All of my watches spend most of their days in the box.

I don't see the problem.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Barracuda ordered. Why all the fuss about the checkout, btw? It was easy.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Got a pre-order Blue Amphion but as I was on my mobile and the PayPal connection failed twice before working, I forgot to use the coupon.
Well, still very happy to have been able to preorder while boarding the Eurostat shuttle (going from Paris to London)

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Barracuda ordered. Why all the fuss about the checkout, btw? It was easy.


I recently implemented a new, one-page, simplified checkout, which I think cuts down on some issues people had. I also switched credit card processors recently, so any payments that aren't through Amazon Pay or Apple Pay are processed by PayPal, regardless of whether someone's using a credit card or doing a PayPal transfer.

I now turn off some of the widgets built into my site, as I think they sometimes cause issues at checkout, especially during pre-orders. I turn them back on after the initial rush is over.

There are some other, small and subtle things I've done to lessen the problems people have had due to there being only so many pieces of each version available at each price tier, but hopefully without removing too much of the sense of urgency people feel to get in early.

Glad to see fewer problems reported on this go-round.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

My issues were not on Docs end in case I wasn't clear. I'm at a client site today and had to sneak over into a corner and snag WiFi (slow) to get my order in.

The last time I was on a normal connection for an order (Ghost Rider) it was a few clicks and BAM! done.

Props to Doc. The new check out is as smooth and painless as master pick pocket taking your wallet. 



docvail said:


> I recently implemented a new, one-page, simplified checkout, which I think cuts down on some issues people had. I also switched credit card processors recently, so any payments that aren't through Amazon Pay or Apple Pay are processed by PayPal, regardless of whether someone's using a credit card or doing a PayPal transfer.
> 
> I also turned off some of the widgets built into my site, as I think they sometimes cause issues at checkout, especially during pre-orders. I turn them back on after the initial rush is over.
> 
> ...


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

docvail said:


> All of my watches spend most of their days in the box.
> 
> I don't see the problem.


It's not a problem. I think I'm coming to a realization that owning 60-ish watches and wearing 5 or less is may not be the best use of funds and storage space.

Before the Amphion I probably wore 12-15 watches per month. Now I wear the Amphion probably 4 out of 5 workdays and occasionally on the weekends. The weekend watch is usually one of my SKX 007's or a G-Shock depending on risk level of activities.

Ironically I'm wearing the Commander today. It probably hasn't seen the light of day since last fall.

Maybe I'm getting old. Stay off my lawn just in case.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

I will say that the ordering process was fairly smooth. I did get hung up by choosing PayPal as a payment option. The PayPal page never opened and the link from the shopping cart to open PayPal didn't work on the iPhone. I went back and just used PayPal checkout and it worked with no hassle. 

It may have been due to a combination of using an iPhone and a very marginal cell signal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm very happy for all of you who jumped in on the pre-orders. I'm sitting here drooling over pictures of the Barracuda, but I'm trying something new and attempting to utilize some self control. I will be refraining from this go-'round.

So, I will sit back and read all of your comments and eagerly await the deliveries to see some awesome pictures (many of you have great photo skills!) and live vicariously through you and your excitement!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> My issues were not on Docs end in case I wasn't clear. I'm at a client site today and had to sneak over into a corner and snag WiFi (slow) to get my order in.
> 
> The last time I was on a normal connection for an order (Ghost Rider) it was a few clicks and BAM! done.
> 
> Props to Doc. The new check out is as smooth and painless as master pick pocket taking your wallet.


I was clear. I think the right honorable Lord was just referring to past pre-orders, and the reports of wide-spread snafus.

Truth be told, there's no one perfect solution to the challenge of pre-orders. It's as much art as it is science.

While I don't wish my customers to have problems, it is an unfortunate reality that there is a business benefit to having 200-300 people all lined up, digital currency in hand, all trying to get their hands on the first 50-100 watches available at the lowest price.

The alternative is making 200-300 watches available at a higher price, and having 200-300 people in no particular rush to buy them.

Yeah, not going that route. I know where it leads.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Okay, I was on a mega-fast broadband connection and just chose credit card. Was tres smooth.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hawkeye86 said:


> It's not a problem. I think I'm coming to a realization that owning 60-ish watches and wearing 5 or less is may not be the best use of funds and storage space.
> 
> Before the Amphion I probably wore 12-15 watches per month. Now I wear the Amphion probably 4 out of 5 workdays and occasionally on the weekends. The weekend watch is usually one of my SKX 007's or a G-Shock depending on risk level of activities.
> 
> ...


Gotta respect the effort put into lawn maintenance.

I hear ya. I assume your rotational habits are due mostly to preference, and I'm generally happy to hear when someone ends up wearing one of my watches enough to make them question the value of a larger collection.

For me, aside from the fact I don't wear a watch while working, only for the few hours each week I leave the house, my rotational habits do a pendulum-swing between laziness (too much hassle to actually put a watch back in the case and take out another, and set the time...ugh, who has time for that?) and mental baggage I can never seem to shake ("these watches aren't being worn enough, better get in there and wear something different, even if there's literally - not figuratively - no consequence whatsoever to having 20 watches, produced by the company I own, sitting there idle...").

I've occasionally gotten caught up in the idea that seven really would be enough to cover every conceivable scenario from dolphin-punching to high-tea with the Dutchess of Estonia, but lately I've relaxed a bit, and realized A) I seem to like variety more than I value efficiency, and B) whether they get worn often "enough" or not, sometimes I just like looking at them, and that's enough reason for me to keep them, rather than sell them, especially as they do have the added utility of serving as display samples for GTG's or blogger review samples when needed.

I don't need a good reason to own an Atomic Orange Orthos. No one does. Sometimes, that's the point.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

I had zero problems on the pre-order using PayPal - all went very smoothly, so credit to Doc - it can't be easy building a site to cope with bigger-scale sudden uptakes of transactions like this without showing some signs of strain. I saw none... mind you, I knew what I wanted and I was hitting that order button nice & early - mine is timed at 12.02 - probably not the first one placed, but I'd guess not too far down the line.

Now the (not so) long wait begins till July - I know patience is supposed to be a virtue, but jeez, it ain't easy at times like this

..thankfully I have my Vanilla Azores incoming in the not so distant future hopefully to fill the gap :-!


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I don't need a good reason to own an Atomic Orange Orthos. No one does. Sometimes, that's the point.


Indeed.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



azsuprasm said:


> Indeed.


Agreed!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a more-or-less unrelated topic, and feeling a little liberty to vent a little...

Earlier today I responded to an email from my factory, on the subject of a new model in development.

I hesitate to describe any design as "unique" or "original", inasmuch as it seems some view that as a challenge to go looking for similarities to existing designs, and quite honestly, even the most "original" designs we've produced have taken some inspiration (read: "borrowed liberally") from somewhere.

Anyhoo...for lack of a better description, I'll say this design isn't as much of a direct homage to anything else, and as such, we're trying some things we've not yet done with earlier models, but the way *we've* conceived the design is presenting some challenges for the factory to figure out how to actually produce it.

So there is a list of things we need to discuss, or decide upon, or, in some cases, find some acceptable compromise:

1. How the bezel is constructed - is it two pieces or three, and if it's two, can one of the pieces be made as desired?

2. Case thickness - always a challenge, despite the fact that I'm now in the habit of confirming the dimensions of each component and all the necessary clearances, prior to designing the case.

3. Case finishing - frequently a challenge to get the finishing just the way I want it, if the case shape makes it a challenge. Example - I usually like case sides to be brushed lug-to-lug, but we had to do vertical brushing on the Tropics, because we wouldn't be able to get the brush into the inner corner where the lugs meet the case doing horizontal brushing.

4. A particularly "unique" aspect of the case design - When comparing the factory's drawings to our drawings, Rusty questioned whether or not they included one of the key features.

5. Crystal - you wouldn't think there would be so much variety or discussion about it, but there's a surprising amount. As conceived, the crystal was to be your basic double-domed structure, mounted with its edge hidden inside the case (sort of like the Orthos). I don't know if there's been a miscommunication, or if there's some challenge to doing it that way, but it seems they want to make the crystal with an exposed edge, more like the Subs and/or Tropics.

6. The case back design - It's not that complicated a design, but even so, it's presenting some challenges, which may force us to go the two-step stamping/etching route, as in the Phantom.

7. The end-links - Sometimes I don't even know what the factory is telling me about some things. This is one of those times and one of those things.

8. Lume - again, it's supposed to be standard stuff. But getting the color of the lume on the dial to match that of the hands and the bezel, even when you're using the same color from the same supplier, can be a challenge.

9. Misc - there's another aspect of the design I don't want to get into now, but suffice to say the way Aaron drew it, and the way I interpreted it, it's giving the factory fits.

10. Colors - Once I discovered the wonderful world of Pantone colors, I thought getting the exact color I wanted would be a forgone conclusion. Yeah, not so much. Even using Pantones, getting the colors on two different parts to match, when they're made of different materials and colored using different processes, can be very tricky.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a SHORT list of the issues we typically need to address when going from concept to prototyping.

We've actually gotten BETTER with each new model, having learned to use Pantone colors, use stock Superluminova colors, avoid custom handsets, draw everything ourselves, in 3D, using professional tools, check component dimensions and clearances before we draw, etc, etc, etc (which, counter-intuitively, is why the lists have gotten longer, rather than shorter, as we've been getting more "hands-on" with each iteration, and specifying more details which would otherwise, and very likely, get lost in translation, or just get done however the factory sees fit, since most startup micros have no clue - I know I didn't).

Why am I detailing all this?

I dunno. I suppose I'm preaching to the choir if I'm doing it here, but it kills me sometimes, when I see people make comments about what watches ought to cost based solely on a handful of components and specs, or draw comparisons between two watches based on specs, despite the complexities and work involved in producing them being vastly different.

Just do me a favor, and when you see those sorts of comments, try to remember, if not remind others, that in some cases, there are A LOT of little efforts that go into producing these silly things, and they can't so easily be quantified in a list of specs and components.

If the Devil is in the details, his ex-wife runs the factory, and she's a bloody tyrant.

*"_We_" can alternately mean "I", "Aaron" (synaptyx), or "Rusty", depending on who deserves the blame for whatever happens to be going sideways on any given day. Today, it's a truly plural "we".


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

^ I bought, developed and sold a house with less dramas than that!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> ^ I bought, developed and sold a house with less dramas than that!


The drama is just beginning. That's just the first message, the opening salvo in the protracted campaign what lies ahead.

I never had much use for the expression "gird my loins" until starting this business. It always seemed a fairly poof way of saying "sack up", but I've since come around to seeing its value.

Getting from the blank page to a working prototype truly is an emotionally, and considering the 12-hour time-zone difference, a physically exhausting process, which I've come to dread, and I truly do need to gird my loins each and every time it needs to be undertaken.

"Sack up" is what I tell my kid when he complains about taking out the garbage. It's not even close to what torture I'm facing.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

And it's not even the only/most challenging part of owing a micro...


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

What I like most about this thread, besides the pictures of watches and all the snark: doc talking about the hassle of everything related to owning a watch company - but clearly he likes it  - and I can learn a lot here. Thx 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I can not wait to buy one of Doc's watches. At the moment they are a bit pricey due to my Work hours. I am in the roofing industry, manage a supplier and well...No 1 roofs up in Toronto in the winter time so my hours are cut quite a bit. We go from 65 hours to 40 in the winter time. I know this is a bit trivial for some people but hey, so can life be as well lol. Anyways once the hours start ramping up and the bank account gets a little fatter. I definitely NEED one of @docvail watches. I just love how you communicate with us all and I imagine roll your eyes alot, especially at some of us Noobs. 
Thanks for all you do and I always look forward to reading your posts. Keep doing what you are doing brother, because you do it well.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I swear, there really isn't all that much to learn here. Once in a while there will be some semi-decent haiku, but that's about all.

Nothing to learn here.
Semi-decent haiku is all.
The rest is just meh.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I swear, there really isn't all that much to learn here. Once in a while there will be some semi-decent haiku, but that's about all.
> 
> Nothing to learn here.
> Semi-decent haiku is all.
> The rest is just meh.


Like you said, Christoph-
Errr, uhhhmmmm, what was it you said?
Teee. Ellll. Slash. Deee. Aarghh.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Like you said, Christoph-
> Errr, uhhhmmmm, what was it you said?
> Teee. Ellll. Slash. Deee. Aarghh.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hmmm, let's see...5-7-5 syllables, and I guess we'll call that ending a semi-non-sequitur...


----------



## gdb1960 (Dec 23, 2013)

kendalw3 said:


> Need to post something to distract from all these Tropics photos! Soon, the wait is almost over!
> 
> In the mean time, more cow bell!!!
> View attachment 11473626
> ...


Just ordered mine today. Man, July can't get here fast enough!

Exactly how many Tapas are in a Talk?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Hmmm, let's see...5-7-5 syllables, and I guess we'll call that ending a semi-non-sequitur...
> 
> View attachment 11542658


I think the wordyouseek is "evocative." Or "subtle," if you prefer subtlety.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> I think the wordyouseek is "evocative." Or "subtle," if you prefer subtlety.


Doc likes subtlety?
Have you ever met the man?
Sells orange watches!


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kendalw3 said:


> Agreed!


It's what you need.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

The Santa Fe glows
My other watches do not
I have ordered one


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

Oh snap!
I forgot all about this!

Still on the fence... Santa Fe to be side-by-side to my Santa Cruz?
But too many white dials already... but is the one I like the most... LOL! 
ARRGHHH
Plus I will definitely need to sell some stuff... (double Arrrghhh!).

I'm guessing points can be used for the pre-orders?!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gelocks said:


> Oh snap!
> I forgot all about this!
> 
> Still on the fence... Santa Fe to be side-by-side to my Santa Cruz?
> ...


Yes.

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

https://www.wristwatchreview.com/20...n-blue-night-swimming-deserves-a-quiet-night/

This made me LOL:









Well played, Victor.

Well. Played.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> https://www.wristwatchreview.com/20...n-blue-night-swimming-deserves-a-quiet-night/
> 
> This made me LOL:
> 
> ...


More like VictorY!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> The Santa Fe glows
> My other watches do not
> I have ordered one


Doc creates watches;
Horological Einstein.
Time to gird his loins.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gelocks said:


> Oh snap!
> I forgot all about this!
> 
> Still on the fence... Santa Fe to be side-by-side to my Santa Cruz?
> ...





docvail said:


> Yes.
> 
> This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


Oh, and also, since we were doing Haiku right before you got here:


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

This thread needs some watch pics









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Some Orthos are red,
And the Santa Cruz has blue
Tropics are coming!


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Pre-orders are done
Tell us what's coming next, Doc
Take my money now!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

I finally decided that I should download Tapatalk on my phone. I went to the "Play" store, and on the first page for Tapatalk I noticed 2 things right away. 1- Watchuseek is in the "screenshot". 2- The photo in the background of another screenshot is of a Santa Cruz!









No I have one more thing to learn... I hope it turns out to be useful.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Sweet pics! Any bracelet shots Marcos?

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Mil6161 said:


> Sweet pics! Any bracelet shots Marcos?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


The bracelet is too big for my tiny wrists, but regardless I'll take shots with it when I can.

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## gdb1960 (Dec 23, 2013)

R.A.D. said:


> Another lume shot, in this one either i was wearing my commander while following a foreign diplomat late at night or while coming back from the pub after maybe too many drinks.... You decide


Foreign diplomat, and you wore a trench coat.

Exactly how many Tapas are in a Talk?


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

gdb1960 said:


> Foreign diplomat, and you wore a trench coat.
> 
> Exactly how many Tapas are in a Talk?


you got it right!

Plus a commander pic in sports outfit


----------



## gdb1960 (Dec 23, 2013)

R.A.D. said:


> you got it right!
> 
> Plus a commander pic in sports outfit


"Does your dog bite?"

Exactly how many Tapas are in a Talk?


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Been a while since I have posted, but I still love this watch!
I wonder if it will develop a unique lume patina 10 or 20 years from now and how it will look...


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Polaroid (Jul 18, 2010)

Anyone know how many of the Scorpene ended up being made? Love mine.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

gdb1960 said:


> "Does your dog bite?"


"No, my dog does not bite."


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

Ric Capucho said:


> "No, my dog does not bite."


I thought you said your dog did not bite!?!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ruggs said:


> I thought you said your dog did not bite!?!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is NOT my dog...


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> That is NOT my dog...


thats my line!!

Script! Script?

Anybody see Marcos?


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

GlenRoiland said:


> thats my line!!
> 
> Script! Script?
> 
> Anybody see Marcos?


I'm on it...

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

This.... 🤤🤤🤤🤤🤤🤤









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Dayum! I so want one of those, but circumstances forbid.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Oh man, that minty lume.









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Some Nacken Vintage Blue lume goodness for Tuesday morning.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

From last night. Double lume shot









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Phantom today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

EL_GEEk said:


> From last night. Double line shot


Like those straps, especially the one on the left. Where did you pick it up?


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Karkarov said:


> Like those straps, especially the one on the left. Where did you pick it up?


Bought them both from Astor & Banks booth on the last WindUp NYC event by Worn & Wound.

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Minty Azores Proto









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orthos ii mod today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Näcken!!









Tapatalked using my GS7Edge


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Blue Antillies prototype.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Couldn't resist. Been wanting an NTH or L&H for awhile now. Went to order the Barracuda, but the Phantom Ghost Rider just kept calling (just really looks great and really like the meaning behind the L&H name), so I picked that up instead. Anyone see any shots of Ghost Rider outside the few on the site?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Couldn't resist. Been wanting an NTH or L&H for awhile now. Went to order the Barracuda, but the Phantom Ghost Rider just kept calling (just really looks great and really like the meaning behind the L&H name), so I picked that up instead. Anyone see any shots of Ghost Rider outside the few on the site?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


There are none. No prototypes.

This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

^^^ So we're all getting prototypes? ;->


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> There are none. No prototypes.
> 
> This talk was packed by weight, not by volume. Some settling may occur during tapping.


Cool - thanks. Wow, this is a really limited run. Glad there was still a spot available.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Disneydave said:


> Cool - thanks. Wow, this is a really limited run. Glad there was still a spot available.


Yeap, that is ultimately why I ordered too.

Even if a year or two I decide to move on from it, the Ghost Rider is so limited getting the money back should not be hard. Besides, it is a cool looking watch inspired by the forum community, and it is hard not to feel good about supporting Doc's brand.

Can't wait to get some more pics out there once mine arrives, not sure what I will do strap wise yet.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I'm not worried. It looks really cool and different. I'm glad that I got one.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Mmmmh, minty!









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Fully assembled in the USA, I think by Doc's watch maker. We are already well aware of the quality of the parts.

How awesome is that at this price point.



Tanjecterly said:


> I'm not worried. It looks really cool and different. I'm glad that I got one.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

EL_GEEk said:


> Mmmmh, minty!


Still hoping for some comparison commentary of the two tropics style protos you've got... Please...


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

fearlessleader said:


> Still hoping for some comparison commentary of the two tropics style protos you've got... Please...


Haven't forgotten about it, just being busy at work.

Let me start by saying that I have not order any these yet. I know, sue me. They main reason being that I'm holding off for bigger purchases I've been wanting for a while. It is also worth saying that I am a fan of dual crown, internal bezel, compressor style watches and I currently have 6 in my collection. I love the look and functionality.

What I can tell you right now is that when they were first announced, I was more attracted to the Antilles, specifically the champagne dial and the white dial. They are beautiful watches and really well made. However, and this is only MY opinion, the design works better on the Azores.

The combination of the hands, the textured dial, the minty lume (I am also not a big fan of minty lume, but this one is very well executed) the brushed details on the case, the triangle markers, etc. just flows better to me. I keep catching myself admiring the Azores more than the Antilles, but again, this is just MY opinion.

The Antilles is a beauty, don't get me wrong. It definitely has a more elegant, dressy look/feel, and perhaps a more polished case would've been a better fit, like my Pleamar. Again just my opinion.

In the end, you can't go wrong with any of the options offered. Doc and his factory has done an excellent job with these. Yes, they are THAT well executed. I had heard this from other Micro Brand owners before me seeing the protos, but I can now attest this is true.










"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Ok new pickups from the Phillie get together let's hear it for the first of the production Azores and a prototype Phantom I couldn't pass up


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

EL_GEEk said:


> Haven't forgotten about it, just being busy at work.
> 
> Let me start by saying that I have not order any these yet. I know, sue me. They main reason being that I'm holding off for bigger purchases I've been wanting for a while. It is also worth saying that I am a fan of dual crown, internal bezel, compressor style watches and I currently have 6 in my collection. I love the look and functionality.
> 
> ...


Wow! Some great comments... Thank you. I included all of your comments because they were so bang-on great.

I love my KonTiki, but I went with the Azores -- sufficiently different and VERY VERY nice look. Seems like I've made a good choice.

I love that speckled strap on your Azores. I tried over at astorandbanks.com, but no luck yet...


----------



## tissotguy (Oct 31, 2014)

Happy Sunday! It's my daughter's birthday today but
she's not old enough to drink, so...
...


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I honestly can't get enough of the Santa Cruz. Gets my juices flowing fast and furious.....if you know what I mean? This I think is the watch I am asking Santa for this year!! mmmmmmSexah!!!!


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

I'm going to list a few watches and buy an Oberon date....


Instagram - Dec1968watches


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

The Oberon is a winner


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Commander today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

Talk about a versatile watch it even matches my beer


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

May the Fourth be with you!!!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Revenge of the 5th










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

hawkeye86 said:


> In for a modern blue Nacken. Had plans for at least one more but after some soul searching I concluded that my Amphion is taking an overwhelming majority of wrist time and there was a good chance that any new watch was in peril of spending most of its days in the box.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Aaaaaand thanks to all the Santa Cruz pictures posted here I have gone back and ordered one. I was regretting passing on them the first time around. Even if it doesn't get worn often it will be something different and unique in the collection.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

EL_GEEk said:


> Haven't forgotten about it, just being busy at work.
> 
> Let me start by saying that I have not order any these yet. I know, sue me. They main reason being that I'm holding off for bigger purchases I've been wanting for a while. It is also worth saying that I am a fan of dual crown, internal bezel, compressor style watches and I currently have 6 in my collection. I love the look and functionality.
> 
> ...


I had to go cold turkey on watches but am seriously considering falling off the wagon for one of these.

Great to see the brands doing such awesome work, and best wishes to all and especially Doc.










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> Aaaaaand thanks to all the Santa Cruz pictures posted here I have gone back and ordered one. I was regretting passing on them the first time around. Even if it doesn't get worn often it will be something different and unique in the collection.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks Ed!


illumidata said:


> I had to go cold turkey on watches but am seriously considering falling off the wagon for one of these.
> 
> Great to see the brands doing such awesome work, and best wishes to all and especially Doc.
> 
> ...


Cheers, mate!

How many taps does it take to get to the talky center of a Tapatalk? The world may never know...


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

That's 3 NTH on order. I better start planning work from home days so I can intercept the packages. The wife will not be amused 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ossamanity (Nov 28, 2016)

First day with the new to me Commander. 
Really like the quality and everything else about this watch .









Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

The OG of Janis Trading Co.









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ossamanity said:


> First day with the new to me Commander.
> Really like the quality and everything else about this watch .
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome. Glad you like it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those of you who somehow don't get the email updates, all the Tropics orders are now being processed for shipping by our warehouse. I expect they'll all be shipped by the end of the day Wednesday, and everyone should have a shipping notice with tracking info by the end of the week. 

Boom.

Another one in the books...

Oh, and I sent in the order for the next batch of Subs last night, so those are starting production in 3...2...


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> For those of you who somehow don't get the email updates, all the Tropics orders are now being processed for shipping by our warehouse. I expect they'll all be shipped by the end of the day Wednesday, and everyone should have a shipping notice with tracking info by the end of the week.
> 
> Boom.
> 
> ...


I can't wait for my Antilles! My week just got better


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Iliyan said:


> I can't wait for my Antilles! My week just got better


Bringing the sunshine wherever I go...

How many taps does it take to get to the talky center of a Tapatalk? The world may never know...


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Bringing the sunshine wherever I go...
> 
> How many taps does it take to get to the talky center of a Tapatalk? The world may never know...


When the shades of night are falling 
Comes a fellow everyone knows
It's the old dope peddler 
Spreading joy
Wherever he goes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> When the shades of night are falling
> Comes a fellow everyone knows
> It's the old dope peddler
> Spreading joy
> Wherever he goes.


I was thinking more like, "the candyman can", but whatever.

How many taps does it take to get to the talky center of a Tapatalk? The world may never know...


----------



## slim.cognito (Feb 29, 2016)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

With a heavy heart I am selling my NTH Näcken Modern No-Date Sub. I do not have the requisite posts on WUS to post directly for sale; however, the watch is up on ebay currently. Please check it out if interested.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



slim.cognito said:


> With a heavy heart I am selling my NTH Näcken Modern No-Date Sub. I do not have the requisite posts on WUS to post directly for sale; however, the watch is up on ebay currently. Please check it out if interested.


Sorry to hear that, but they seem to be in demand. I have people email me occasionally, asking when we'll make more. If nothing else, I'd check the WTB ("Wanted to Buy") section of the private sales forum.

You may also mention it over in the current BSHT thread. Someone there may be interested. Those guys are nuts for subs of all sorts.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Cerbsday









Tapatalked using my GS7Edge


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

Mint Azores inbound!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Vanilla Azores inbound!

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Just joining in with the excitement - one Vanilla Azores inbound for me also.

..just a shame there not a 'bouncing with excitement' emoji


----------



## GoJoshGo (Dec 18, 2013)

Tuesday bluesday.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Incoming!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Some inbound goodness here as well :-!


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

@doc: What I always thought, even prior to my purchasing the näcken vintage blue: the customs to Europe are a pain in the a.. - have you ever thought about getting an European distributor? I think your customer base would increase significantly. I got at least two friends, who always grab my näcken and complain about customs. Otherwise they would have ordered right away multiple times. Don't want to "suggest" you anything, but I had business several times with the European distributor of magrette and Halios (forasec), as had said friends. 

To me it wasn't about the price I paid for the watch, but the amount of money that did not go to your pocket rather than customs... 

Ah well, if this pledges me guilty for that specific suggestions club (how was it called again!?) - then so be it. Just a thing that crossed my mind several times. 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Black Antilles inbound. Hoping for a Thursday delivery.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> @doc: What I always thought, even prior to my purchasing the näcken vintage blue: the customs to Europe are a pain in the a.. - have you ever thought about getting an European distributor? I think your customer base would increase significantly. I got at least two friends, who always grab my näcken and complain about customs. Otherwise they would have ordered right away multiple times. Don't want to "suggest" you anything, but I had business several times with the European distributor of magrette and Halios (forasec), as had said friends.
> 
> To me it wasn't about the price I paid for the watch, but the amount of money that did not go to your pocket rather than customs...
> 
> ...


Long story, but since you asked...

*1. Euros need to brush up on their logic and math skills. Not looking to offend anyone, but I don't know how many times I can do this...

*The price you pay when you buy something in the EU/UK includes VAT, typically ranging from 19%-21%, so let's say it's 20%, on average, for this example.

If I decide a watch, say the Orthos (to use an easy example) will sell for $500. That's the price I charge selling it from where I'm sitting, here in the USA - $500.

Let's say I've got an identical twin brother, Noah, who's my 50% partner, but lives in the UK/EU, and runs an identical business to mine. When we make a new model, he gets part of the inventory.

He's got to charge $600 for it. That's the law. You're not escaping the VAT when you buy from a UK/EU seller. You're guaranteed to pay it. But all the money doesn't go into "his pocket". He's got to forward $100 for the VAT to the Her Majesty's revenue service.

You pay me $500. I get $500. You pay Noah $600, he gets $500.

So, hypothetically, Noah runs out of Orthos inventory, and now you've got to buy one from me, here in the USA. You pay $500.

Now, when it arrives, MAYBE you get a customs bill for the VAT, but MAYBE you don't, because I ship all packages leaving the USA with our national post (USPS), which in turn will hand them off to another courier in the destination country. Very often, that's the national post for that country, and very often, the package will be delivered without any bill for the VAT.

But, MAYBE you do get a bill. Is it for $100 (20% of $500)?

No, it's not. But even if it was, that would make your total charge $600 (not including the cost of shipping, or any obnoxious brokerage fees assessed by the courier - looking at you, FedEx), so you'd be in no worse a position.

It's not just because I outsource my order fulfillment to a 3PL company ("3rd party logistics"), and I'm not telling them how to complete the customs declaration on each order individually.

It's also because a good portion of my business is pre-orders, whereby people pay less than the full retail price.

This sets up a logistical/clerical challenge for me. If, let's just say, 60% of my sales are pre-orders, for less than full retail price, what value do I tell the 3PL company to put on the customs declaration?

I set the products up in the 3PL company's system so that they mark customs forms with the LOWEST pre-order price paid by any of my customers. That ensures my pre-order customers aren't over-charged for VAT, but it benefits ALL my customers, forever.

Typically pre-order prices start 30%-40% lower. In this case, the last batch of Orthos we sent out en masse had a low price of $350 (the Commander 300 project price).

So, IF you get a customs bill, it's not for 20% of $500, it's for 20% of $350, so not $100, but rather $70. Instead of forking over $600 to my brother Noah, you've now paid just $500 (best case scenario) to $570 (worst case). Even assuming an obnoxious brokerage fee of $15 (about typical, from what I've heard), you're still ahead.​
*

2. I actually HAVE sent inventory to be stored in Europe, the UK specifically.

*It was a MAJOR undertaking to get it there, taking up a lot of my time, not just in the initial organizing and shipping involved, but due to the major screw-up by my 3PL company, the courier we used (DHL), and UK customs, and recurring/persistent problems ever since, and it's not produced much in the way of added value.​

I got it into my head (thanks to some watch-geek friends in the UK) that I could find some savings for myself and my customers by storing some of my inventory in the UK, for shipment throughout the EU, EEA, EFTA and associated countries.

My thinking was that shipping inventory in bulk would save on the transportation costs, allowing me to charge my customers less for the shipping, and that I'd be paying customs tax (VAT) on the wholesale value of the inventory (my cost), rather than my customers paying VAT on the retail value.

That's not how it worked out.

The combined cost of shipping the inventory from here to the UK, plus the corrected VAT I had to pay (I was severely over-charged at first, and it took me months and a lot of aggravation to recover the undue amount), plus the cost of shipping individual pieces to customers from the UK warehouse ends up being slightly MORE than what it costs me to just ship everything from the US.

The only advantage is that people who buy those watches which ship from our UK warehouse end up getting them sooner. Otherwise, there's no added value to be had from storing my inventory in the UK/EU.

Quite the contrary, as a matter of fact...

Now, instead of my warehouse team automatically processing orders to ship to customers in the UK/EU from our USA warehouse, all those orders now sit there in a "Hold" status, waiting on me to go into their system and manually assign the order to one or the other warehouse.

AND I've got to remember to de-select the default option to include actual purchase price on the customs form, so those customers don't end up paying VAT on the full retail price, or whatever price they actually paid, defeating one of the measures I've specifically taken to spare my UK/EU customers the full brunt of your onerous tax policies.

The system's order-routing logic isn't smart enough to automatically assign orders for fulfillment by either warehouse based on the location of the customer and which warehouse has the inventory needed to fulfill the order.

It's supposed to be that smart, I was told it was that smart, and I've even tried, multiple times, to get the order-routing settings dialed in so orders are correctly routed automatically, but the 3PL company finally had to admit their system doesn't work as advertised.

So here I am, now needing to edit EVERY order to EVERY customer in the UK or EU, REGARDLESS of what they order, EVEN if the item is located here in the USA (where 95% of my inventory is).

As I said above, because the costs in getting the inventory to the UK were the same (actually, they're a little higher) as shipping to you from the USA, there's no savings to be had for you, the customer, in shipping, because I'm not charging you any less for shipping, no matter which warehouse ships the order. It's the same cost either way.

It's been an incredible exercise in wasting time, energy, and money, and making my life needlessly more difficult than it ought to be, in an effort to spare some customers from having to think, do math, or pay a customs bill.
​*

3. I actually DO have a European distributor, and I've tried to get more on board.

*WatchfinderGeneral is our authorized reseller in the UK. If you go to their site, you'll note the limited selection of our watches available for sale.

It's a small business, like mine. The proprietor, Lee, is a good bloke, but he's got to BUY the inventory from me. Even though I'm selling it to him at a large discount from retail, imagine the amount of money it requires to stock multiple pieces of each model, and each variation thereof.

There's a limit to how much he can buy, and while I've offered to sell him some of the NTH pieces for his stock, he's unfortunately had to politely/professionally decline, at this time, with mutual hopes for the future.

I've reached out to others in the EU/UK. It's a difficult challenge. Those who can afford to buy the inventory have thus far declined, those who seem most interested aren't the sorts I'd want my brand sold by.

I spoke to Page & Cooper, for example. I forget the name of the gentleman I spoke to, but he was amiable enough. He was polite but painfully honest when he told me he was looking for watches in the $1500 retail range (this was 2 years ago, or thereabouts), and wasn't very interested in carrying any more brands selling in the $400-$600 range which my brands occupy.

I actually sat down and thought about a plan to come up with something for them - automatic chrono, Seiko NE88 movement, all the whistles and bells...

But how the hell do I do that? My customer base is in the $400-$600 range. When I ran the numbers, projecting how many pieces I'd need to make, the likely production costs, how many people I could reasonably expect to pre-order, the pre-order price they'd be likely to pay, and the sizable discount P&C would expect on a large portion of the production - the numbers just didn't add up.

I'd have to finance the bulk of production costs myself, with no real guarantee I'd be able to sell the watches we made, and even if I could, I wouldn't make much if any profit on them. There was no path forward.
​
Do me a favor, all you Euros, as you make your way around the interwebz. Please try to think about the above, particularly the math/logic involved in thinking about the REAL impact of the VAT, and help me disillusion all your fellow continentals.

You're BETTER off buying from me BECAUSE I'm NOT in the UK/EU. You'd be WORSE off if I was, or if you made the same purchase from a UK/EU seller.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Or, I could just be a wiseass, and post this...


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

EL_GEEk said:


> Mmmmh, minty!


Hey, Chris, for some reason these aren't really my thing (I dunno why, they really should be) but I learnt the other day Tasha absolutely adores the Azores! (see what I did there!)

Obviously we're onboard for the subs, so more is not possible right now. I get that this doesn't help your bank balance, but consider it a 'man hands high-5' from her .... or something? lol


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keefy said:


> Hey, Chris, for some reason these aren't really my thing (I dunno why, they really should be) but I learnt the other day Tasha absolutely adores the Azores! (see what I did there!)
> 
> Obviously we're onboard for the subs, so more is not possible right now. I get that this doesn't help your bank balance, but consider it a 'man hands high-5' from her .... or something? lol


Uhm...tell the missus I said "Cheers", and let her know I was only joking about her having man-hands, an unfortunate consequence of the fish-eye effect when taking pics using a mobile device.

You have to admit, her mitts did seem pretty manly in that pic.

But I'm sure she's a lovely lady with completely proportional appendages.

She looks like the reverse Norm MacDonald here, though...


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

@ doc: thanks for the elaborate and educative answer. I'd like to give a witty comment, but unfortunately I'm no quick thinker. I literally had no idea of all the things you stated above - I'll pass your answer along to my guys. 

But don't get me wrong, I was not complaining. Just curious - and you answered not only for your company but others as well. Thanks again! 



Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Uhm...tell the missus I said "Cheers", and let her know I was only joking about her having man-hands, an unfortunate consequence of the fish-eye effect when taking pics using a mobile device.


It's all good, most definitely taken the right way.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> @ doc: thanks for the elaborate and educative answer. I'd like to give a witty comment, but unfortunately I'm no quick thinker. I literally had no idea of all the things you stated above - I'll pass your answer along to my guys.
> 
> But don't get me wrong, I was not complaining. Just curious - and you answered not only for your company but others as well. Thanks again!
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


No worries. Thanks for understanding, on behalf of me, and all sellers outside the UK/EU. It's been a persistent frustration to see Euros on WUS and elsewhere complain about having to pay "extra" to buy something from outside the VAT-zone, when in fact there's no extra charge at all, and it may even be the case that you pay less.

I've tried to explain that at least a half dozen times, but it's sort of like the "Seiko owns Orient" thing (they don't). No matter how much you explain it, people go on believing otherwise.

PS/EDIT - Only because I know I can't mention it without someone challenging me on it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seiko_Group.

Seiko (watches) are produced by Seiko Holdings corp, traded on the Tokyo exchange (SEIKO - TYO: 8050), and headquartered in Tokyo.

Orient (watches) are produced by Seiko EPSON, or simply, "EPSON", also traded on the Tokyo exchange (EPSON - TYO: 6724), and headquartered in Suwa, Nagano.

They're both part of the "Seiko Group" - companies originally founded with some ownership interests in common, and still strategically aligned, a common business practice in Japan, but they're independent of each other, separately owned and managed.

"Seiko" (the watch company) does NOT own "Orient" (the watch company).

...Shedding light on truth and calling BS on "common internet knowledge" wherever I go...


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> I've tried to explain that at least a half dozen times, but it's sort of like the "Seiko owns Orient" thing (they don't). No matter how much you explain it, people go on believing otherwise.


I must have missed it, but then, I did no thorough search on that matter. But I could have thought of it, that I might not be the only one who'd thought of that...

I'll go back to simply posting random pics of my watches, underlined by disjointed comments 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I must have missed it, but then, I did no thorough search on that matter. But I could have thought of it, that I might not be the only one who'd thought of that...
> 
> I'll go back to simply posting random pics of my watches, underlined by disjointed comments
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


I may have posted some explanation of it here, but more likely, most of my attempts were somewhere else.

Unless you're stalking me online, your odds of having seen the posts were extremely low.

You're not stalking me, are you?


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> I may have posted some explanation of it here, but more likely, most of my attempts were somewhere else.
> 
> Unless you're stalking me online, your odds of having seen the posts were extremely low.
> 
> You're not stalking me, are you?


Just the usual IG subscription and I follow your two threads here...closely... ...seemingly not closely enough 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Vanilla Azores arriving Thursday.


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> Vanilla Azores arriving Thursday.


Me too!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Santa Fe arriving whenever Chris stops yammering about VAT and gets it built. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Santa Fe arriving whenever Chris stops yammering about VAT and gets it built.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The proud nail gets the yammer...


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

White Antilles inbound! I'm in Europe and very happy about t your views on selling stuff here and shipping via USPS : 90% of the time I save on the VAT...
If you had an inventory in the UK, I'd still try to buy direct from you in the US ! Better wait one or two more weeks and pay 💯€ less than the opposite!

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

I've also got a white Antilles inbound!!! Super excited!!!

But I'm currently out of the country, so I won't get to see it until I get back home.


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

As a frequent buyer of watches from outside the UK where I live, specifically 8 L&H/NTH watches. I have paid customs costs about 60% of the time. Sometimes you win......

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



arrvoo said:


> As a frequent buyer of watches from outside the UK where I live, specifically 8 L&H/NTH watches. I have paid customs costs about 60% of the time. Sometimes you win......
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


Poker Math Quiz!!!

Q: If the average price paid for a watch sold by a US merchant is $500, the VAT is 20%, but you only get a bill for the VAT 60% of the time, what is the relative value of buying from the US, rather than the UK/EU, expressed as a percentage?

A: 8%
B. 12%
C. 20%
D. 40%

Answer = A, 8%.

$500 x 20% VAT = $100.

$100 x 60% odds of paying VAT = $60 average VAT paid over a large enough sample.

$100 - $60 = $40 average benefit of buying a $500 watch from the US rather than the UK/EU.

$40 / $500 = 0.08 (8%).

In Poker, we'd call that a "free roll", aka a bet with no risk of loss, only the chance for gain, or put more simply, it's a bet you CAN'T lose. In this hypothetical case that bet has 8% positive value.

If the seller marks the customs forms for a lower amount, say, 70% of the $500 ($350), then the bet's value rises to 11.6%.

$350 declared value x 20% VAT = $70.

$70 x 60% odds of paying VAT = $42 average VAT paid over a large enough sample.

$100 nominal VAT on a $500 watch - $42 average VAT actually paid = $58 average benefit of buying a $500 watch from a US seller who marks customs forms with the lowest pre-order price rather than the UK/EU.

$58 / $500 = 0.116 (11.6%).

Mathematics tells us that buying from the US seller will cost Euros 8%-11.6% LESS than buying from within the UK/EU, on average, due to VAT savings.

Everything I needed to know about life, I learned reading books on Poker theory.

How many taps does it take to get to the talky center of a Tapatalk? The world may never know...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If the USPS is doing its job, I reckon some people ought to be receiving their Tropics today. I hope any who do will post some pics up (here, where they are always welcome, but equally, if not more importantly, elsewhere on the forum, FB, and IG, where they're more likely to be seen by folks who've been unaware of them to date, and might fancy a closer look).


Dropping less-than-subtle hints wherever I go...


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Docvails magic math Tricks, x=%+*$£$$$£$<=>¥¥$£$


But if the customs office demands you to bring the actual PayPal/eBay receipt unless you don't want them to keep the watch, you'll always pay 100% customs on the product AND shipping. This happens in 100% of the cases. With every watch I ordered outside the EU.

I don't want to argue, really not, this gamble just doesn't work EVERYwhere. I don't say it doesn't work.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> But if the customs office demands you to bring the actual PayPal/eBay receipt unless you don't want them to keep the watch, you'll always pay 100% customs on the product AND shipping. This happens in 100% of the cases. With every watch I ordered outside the EU.
> 
> I don't want to argue, really not, this gamble just doesn't work EVERYwhere. I don't say it doesn't work.
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


The customs forms we create (with the values we declare) are attached to the outside of the package, but, whenever a customer emails me to request a copy of the invoice, I send them the copy we created at shipping, which has the same value.

Vail Panther. 100% of the time, the math works out 100%.

How many taps does it take to get to the talky center of a Tapatalk? The world may never know...


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

From his office chair
Watches designed with great care
Mailbox filled with air

Due in Friday.... so excite, much wait.



docvail said:


> If the USPS is doing its job, I reckon some people ought to be receiving their Tropics today. I hope any who do will post some pics up (here, where they are always welcome, but equally, if not more importantly, elsewhere on the forum, FB, and IG, where they're more likely to be seen by folks who've been unaware of them to date, and might fancy a closer look).
> 
> Dropping less-than-subtle hints wherever I go...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Mine are scheduled for delivery this Friday. Patiently (o|) waiting.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

*redacted*


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> o...


Alright. All the points go to you.

I am happy I am no business man. I'd loose money. Just wish I'd had asked earlier. Now I'll pass this on to teh friends.

And please remind me next time I'd suggest you something, to read a couple of books about poker maths 

Thanks

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> If the USPS is doing its job, I reckon some people ought to be receiving their Tropics today. I hope any who do will post some pics up (here, where they are always welcome, but equally, if not more importantly, elsewhere on the forum, FB, and IG, where they're more likely to be seen by folks who've been unaware of them to date, and might fancy a closer look).
> 
> Dropping less-than-subtle hints wherever I go...


I wish I could post pics of my Antilles today. I'd post them everywhere! The postal gods decided to visit me tomorrow instead of today.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Oh and I'm sorry for interrupting the very exciting discussion about taxes, customs forms and duties.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

hahah you said duty!!!!



Iliyan said:


> Oh and I'm sorry for interrupting the very exciting discussion about taxes, customs forms and duties.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Iliyan said:


> Oh and I'm sorry for interrupting the very exciting discussion about taxes, customs forms and duties.


Alright alright, let me make up for boredom with a nice macro:









Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)




----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

Doc VAT making house calls today I see. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Alright. All the points go to you.
> 
> I am happy I am no business man. I'd loose money. Just wish I'd had asked earlier. Now I'll pass this on to teh friends.
> 
> ...


Fun Fact: I was never that good a school student, overall. I had raging - and undiagnosed until about 10 years ago - ADHD, and only got through school due to my being able to intuit answers on multiple choice tests fairly well, and a strong talent for BS, which manifested itself as remarkably good essays and term papers.

Apparently I also have a head for numbers, provided there's a practical application behind them and the concepts employed are understandable.

Most of my "real" education has been through my reading as an adult, spanning wide-ranging and eclectic topics, including:


Psychology (good for sales and motivating others).


Statistics (good for making business decisions, but also, Poker).


Poker (good for Poker, but also, surprisingly good for business, and thinking strategically).


Finance (I used to work in financial services, so getting advanced certifications was sort of expected, but it's useful to understand capital structures and uses at a macro level - it helps in business).


Economics (which is different than finance, and surprisingly good for understanding human behavior in context, especially when it comes to illogical/irrational behavior, but also being able to spot trends and predict outcomes).


Philosophy (without a moral compass, there is no business success).


History (learn it, or be doomed to repeat it. If you want to understand why the world is they way it is, history has the explanation).


Politics (sorry, but Machiavelli was onto something), and finally,


Warfare (Sun Tzu would have made chess grandmaster Gary Kasparov his b1tch).

I've tried to compensate for my lack of an academic pedigree by creating a self-selected curriculum of topics few people think much about, in the hopes I'll be the opponent no one sees coming, and no one is prepared for.

So far, so good.

Very few books encompass more than one of those topics, much less most of them, and far fewer of those are very entertaining. One notable exception is one of my favorite books, "The Professor, the Banker, and the Suicide King: Inside the Richest Poker Game of All Time."

It's not the most well-written book I've ever read, but it's not altogether poorly written, and you don't have to be into Poker to enjoy it, or learn from it.

It tells the true story of billionaire Texas banker Andy Beal, who, over the course of several years, took on a syndicate of the world's greatest poker players, at their own game, on their home turf (Vegas, Baby!), and gave as good as he got, with literally tens of millions of dollars changing hands back and forth.

Andy Beal wasn't just another rich a-hole with more money than sense. He's a self-made billionaire and serial entrepreneur, who not only built a huge banking network, but also founded his own private space-exploration company, predating Elon Musk's Space-X by more than a decade. He's a true genius and humanitarian, as well as a fierce competitor, bordering on obsessive-compulsive.

What makes the book remarkable, above and beyond how amazing the story is (and several of the sub-stories are), is how the book intertwines Poker theory (a mutated blend of statistics and psychology) with finance, economics, philosophy, true/pure psychology, politics, and warfare.

The author gives the reader an unbelievably intimate sense of the inner workings of Andy Beal's mind, and the minds of the world's greatest poker players, who cannot be dismissed as a bunch of degenerate gamblers. Most of the members of the syndicate which played against Andy Beal are prodigies in one way or another, in various fields, including mathematics, science, computers, and literature.

Even "Hustler" magazine publisher Larry Flynt makes a brief cameo.

BONUS FUN FACT: Actor Eric Bana played fictional poker player "Huck Cheever" in the fairly mundane date-night movie "Lucky You", opposite Drew Barrymore. In the movie, he makes an insane proposition bet that he can play something like 36 holes of golf in under three hours, without a caddy or a cart.

That actually happened in real life, and is described in the book (among other insane prop bets poker players use to abuse each other). The guy who did it was the inspiration for Bana's character, named Huck Seed (yes, the dude's real name is Huckleberry Seed, and he won the bet, with time to spare).

EDIT - I think I got the details of the prop bet in the movie correct (but maybe not). The actual (six-figure) bet was that Seed could break 100 on a desert golf course four times in one day using just a five iron, sand wedge, and putter.


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

The original and Chris' personal favorite!!









Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The Professor, the Banker, and the Suicide King: Inside the Richest Poker Game of All Time."
> 
> It's not the most well-written book I've ever read, but it's not altogether poorly written, and you don't have to be into Poker to enjoy it, or learn from it.


The well-written version of the same incident, along with details around the poker boom and the rise & fall of Stu Ungar are documented in "Cowboys Full: The Story of Poker" by James McManus.

When I'm back in Wayne July 17-20, I'd love to play if we can pull a weeknight. Our weekend cash game is $20 buys 200, buy what you like, $.20/.50 blinds.

Thinking out loud on the keyboard now...

Summer incoming GRP!! Save the shipping and get it to me that week, Chris.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



azsuprasm said:


> The well-written version of the same incident, along with details around the poker boom and the rise & fall of Stu Ungar are documented in "Cowboys Full: The Story of Poker" by James McManus.
> 
> When I'm back in Wayne July 17-20, I'd love to play if we can pull a weeknight. Our weekend cash game is $20 buys 200, buy what you like, $.20/.50 blinds.
> 
> ...


I don't play Poker anywhere near as often as I used to, when I was gainfully employed (and for a while, obscenely over-compensated) by others. But when I do play, I find my best games are $1/$2 no-limit (max buy-in $300) or $1/$3 no-limit ($500), with a preference for the latter.

I've played in home games for smaller stakes, and limit games (aka "no fold-em hold'em"), but my competitive streak has prevented me from enjoying them.

Win or lose, I only seem to enjoy the games where the risks of loss are large enough to force better play, and reduce the role of luck in the outcomes.

Losing a pot to a guy who called me to the River, only to spike one of four cards needed to draw to an inside straight can literally - not figuratively - make me lose my mind, and put me on full-tilt. From there on, it's just a $h1t-show.

So...maybe we can just link up for drinks and shoot the $h1t a bit, and skip the cards?


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Mathematics tells us that buying from the US seller will cost Euros 8%-11.6% LESS than buying from within the UK/EU, on average, due to VAT savings.


It's the fees that get my goat.

While on a $500 watch it still ends up better value, on average, the extra ~$25 admin fee each time they charge you customs can be quite significant on lower value purchases.

In the UK at least, I suspect a lot of people's frustration stems not from having to pay the VAT, but from this handling charge that continues to rise. Each time I receive a parcel with duty my immediate reaction is "You charge me what now!" It's more than doubled in the last few years and always leaves a nasty taste.

Also, people get lucky and take it for granted. On watches from Russia, Ukraine etc. I have never been hit, and the same from Singapore or Hong Kong irrespective of the value on the box. I haven't bought enough from the US to put a good percentage on it, but I swear from Japan I get charged each and every single time.

Lastly, I think it has an effect on our psyches that in Europe we rarely see prices without tax on them in a shop. In the US it's quite normal for people to have to add sales tax onto the ticket price but as visitors that feels like some sort of trick to us foreigners despite it being the exact same system. I bet the US setup is vastly better for your mental arithmetic too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

$1650 to protect my trademark in Hungary...

[Picture redacted, because I'm an idiot and missed blacking out one of the address blocks on it, but it was a very official-looking letter from some jackwit in Hungary who thinks I'm going to fork over $1650 for them to "assist" me in filing for protection of my NTH trademark there, as if I had $1650 to piss away (I don't), or gave a $h1t about protecting my trademark in Hungary (I don't). Seriously, that's more than my attorney charged me to file here in AMERICA, where 2/3 of my business comes from.]

Somebody dramatically mistook my level of interest in helping European scam artists take my money...

How many taps does it take to get to the talky center of a Tapatalk? The world may never know...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OMG, two in one day!

Slovak republic demands ~$3k!!!

I guess the word is out my NTH trademark application was approved, and apparently I've been giving off that "deep-pocketed yet stupid Yankee" vibe again.

Silly Euros. Trix are for kidz...









How many taps does it take to get to the talky center of a Tapatalk? The world may never know...


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Careful doc, soon a Nigerian prince will just need your credit card, and social security number. I promise he can get you in all the best boutiques in Abu Dhabi at a good rate!

May check out that book about poker though, Beal is an interesting character on his own but Poker stories can be far more interesting than they have any right to be.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmnc said:


> It's the fees that get my goat.
> 
> While on a $500 watch it still ends up better value, on average, the extra ~$25 admin fee each time they charge you customs can be quite significant on lower value purchases.
> 
> ...


1. I agree, the fees are obnoxious (looking at you again, FedEx). The good news is you shouldn't see them with our shipments, since we don't use the couriers that charge them. Like I said, we send with USPS. At least in the UK (my largest market outside the USA, thank you, Britons), they're most likely to be delivered by Royal Mail or Parcel Force. If people are paying them, I haven't gotten the complaints (and trust me, if people want to complain, I'm the first stop on their itinerary).

2. I agree they're even more obnoxious on lower-priced watches, which is why I charge more for my watches, as a courtesy to my customers. No need to thank me.

3. I totally agree that part of the problem is that peeps in the UK/EU have gotten used to seeing prices inclusive of tax, whereas here in the USA, unless I'm mistaken, with the exception of gas (petrol), the prices NEVER include the tax, which gets added at checkout.

Somewhat ironically, I think we've become as oblivious to seeing taxes added as Euros are to NOT seeing it added, and therein lies part of my frustration - you damned Euros refuse to see how much more awesome it is when the government is forced to show you the money they're stealing from you as they're stealing it.

As for our mental arithmetic, standardized test scores and progressively dumber-appearing "graduates" would argue against the theory that our sales taxes are making anyone smarter.

I can't tell you how often I've had to explain to a cashier why I've given them $23.51 when my total is only $13.51, and had to insist they accept the $3.51 I'm handing over, in addition to the $20 bill (so I can get a single $10 bill as change, rather than one $5 bill, one $1 bill, and $0.49 in coins, which is one quarter, two dimes, and four pennies, which, thanks to the devaluation of the dollar, now actually cost more for the Federal Mint to produce than their 1 cent monetary value).

Making cashiers and other people who can't do mental arithmetic (or understand monetary policy) angry, everywhere I go...


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> 1. I agree, the fees are obnoxious (looking at you again, FedEx). The good news is you shouldn't see them with our shipments, since we don't use the couriers that charge them. Like I said, we send with USPS. At least in the UK (my largest market outside the USA, thank you, Britons), they're most likely to be delivered by Royal Mail or Parcel Force. If people are paying them, I haven't gotten the complaints (and trust me, if people want to complain, I'm the first stop on their itinerary).


They're fairly universal. I got one last week from Parcel Force for about £13.50.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

With all this talk about Euros and duty,etc. (thanks Doc, great info) the other side of the coin is:

It seems that most microbrand watches coming from the Euros to the US are about 20-30% more expensive than those "made" here even after taking out VAT.


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

fearlessleader said:


> With all this talk about Euros and duty,etc. (thanks Doc, great info) the other side of the coin is:
> 
> It seems that most microbrand watches coming from the Euros to the US are about 20-30% more expensive than those "made" here even after taking out VAT.


That's interesting. I can't see any reason they'd be so different, assuming that the components tend to come from the same places.

Can you give an example? I've always thought the export prices of something like a Steinhart look pretty good.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

This thread needs pics!! Woo









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^^^Noice!

You like it, Chris?


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> ^^^Noice!
> 
> You like it, Chris?


You bet your azz...here's a pic on strap...thing is sweet looking...really well made...I like it better than the subs..









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


> ...I like it better than the subs..


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Something that does not get mentioned as often is how good the case back is.










It has left quite an impression!!










Since I have been wearing this watch I have been noticing the little things that really add to the quality of this watch. The shine and comfort of the BoR bracelet really looks great. The expansion clasp and it's uses when I overheat and my wrist expands. The brushing on the side of the case that catches the light and creates a beautiful 3D effect.



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Yep, no rush here. Just enjoying the pics of peoples new arrivals and patiently (o|) waiting.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> Yep, no rush here. Just enjoying the pics of peoples new arrivals and patiently (o|) waiting.


https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=4316882

How many taps does it take to get to the talky center of a Tapatalk? The world may never know...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> NTH Tropics - Let's See Them!
> 
> How many taps does it take to get to the talky center of a Tapatalk? The world may never know...


Yep I've been checking out that thread as well. (way too much WUSing while I work) Good news is the package has arrived in my area and should be on the way to the local post office today so it should still be on schedule for tomorrow. Brightsides and half full cups rock.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

expansion clasps are my latest infatuation. I wish the subs came with one.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

I could have sworn I saw drilled lugs in some pics. I guess I wanted to see it lol. The watch is awesome doc. Azores vanilla here. I gots me some pizza slices yo'! 

I am so glad that the brush was consistent under the end links. It's a great case! The raised glass is so cool...


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


>


Wait, is that from L.I.S.A.?

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Wait, is that from L.I.S.A.?


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> View attachment 11792970


Damn. Damn those memories. I still have a copy of this on VHS somewhere. I mean literally a copy that my brother recorded some decades ago on German television - he used to stop the recording during the advertising breaks - and always forgot to restart it for about 1 minute or so...

L.I.S.A. Is written in capitals in fine handwriting on its label.

Great watches, btw. 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Black Antilles checking in. Very very happy!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

idvsego said:


> expansion clasps are my latest infatuation. I wish the subs came with one.


Like this?


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Ha. Yes. Jerk  

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Mine came today. It's a looker. I'll try to get some pics soon. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Chris Vail Productions presents...


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

I never used to be much of a snowflake guy but I am really diggin' the Nacken and Barracuda.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

it's not just going to sit here and look badass all by itself. go get one









Azores - Vanilla


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

...or if you'd rather have a taste of good blues...

















Antilles - Blue


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Abusing the 'noir' filter...




























My brief first impressions of the Black Antilles are as follows:

- Overall very positive! It's easy to dress up.
- The mid-century aesthetic is very well executed. I love the font on the bezel numerals. 
- the subtle sunburst dial was a nice surprise.
- The lume on the dial and hands is strong
- case size is perfect, not too thick.
- vertical brushing on the sides of the case is hot. As are the polished lug chamfers.
- operation of the crowns is smooth.
- movement is performing well. I certainly don't miss the wobble of the 9015s!
- I'm not a fan of the clasp. It's too bulky. However I'm generally not a fan of this style of clasp, so this was expected and I had a cadre of leather straps ready for it. If only Doc would reverse engineer the C. Ward clasp...
- wish the lugs were drilled!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Hm mine looks okay









Tapatalked using my GS7Edge


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> I never used to be much of a snowflake guy but I am really diggin' the Nacken and Barracuda.


I was never a snowflake guy, either, until we started working on the Subs.

Still not much of a Merc hands guy, though, and I don't see that changing.

That's why I've got a custom, one-off/Frankenmod "Black-Flake" version of a Santa Fe proto in the works.

Shhhh...don't tell anyone.

Just between us girls.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

These tropics look gorgeous. Congrats on these designs - with all the individual customer pics coming up, there isn't much more to say, that you hit a/the spot with these. If I could stand the compressor case on the wrist (which I can't, düe to the double crown...) - I'd have chosen something blue...again... 

Really cool. 



Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ruggs said:


> ...
> - crown lume looks uneven. I don't care, but it doesn't look good. Added a pic at the end that sort of shows it.
> - wish the lugs were drilled!
> 
> ...


Lugs aren't drilled because the Fanmen talked me out of it, saying it would ruin the case sides, and make it less dressy.

Hard for me to tell much from a black-and-white macro shot.

Feel free to email me a color pic, plus a lume shot, which might help.

The lume is sealed in with a clear coating. I've never noticed a crown that showed it, but that would be my first guess, that the sealing wasn't as neatly applied. I may have a different idea if I got a better look at it.

If need be, and if it's going to bother you, we may be able to swap in a new crown for you.


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I see the point about it being less dressy with drilled lugs. But as a habitual strap swapper I've learned to love them.

Regarding the crown, I appreciate the quick reply and the concern Doc. It's really not a big deal. I'll email you some pics.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ruggs said:


> I see the point about it being less dressy with drilled lugs. But as a habitual strap swapper I've learned to love them.
> 
> Regarding the crown, I appreciate the quick reply and the concern Doc. It's really not a big deal. I'll email you some pics.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Last time i heard the term, Strap Swapper, iirc, was watching Pacino in Cruising.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Watcher said:


> it's not just going to sit here and look badass all by itself. go get one
> 
> View attachment 11802490
> 
> ...





The Watcher said:


> ...or if you'd rather have a taste of good blues...
> 
> View attachment 11802906
> 
> ...


The strap game = remains strong.

How many taps does it take to get to the talky center of a Tapatalk? The world may never know...


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Last time i heard the term, Strap Swapper, iirc, was watching Pacino in Cruising.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Haven't heard a reference to that movie in many years. My roommates rented it. None of us knew what cruising meant. They saw Pacino was in it and didn't read any farther. We thought it was going to be a hot rod movie. And in some context I guess it was.

I'll see myself out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

The wife told me that my Antilles was delivered today!!! Super exciting, but I'm not home to enjoy... have to wait ONE MORE WEEK!!!


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

docvail said:


> I was never a snowflake guy, either, until we started working on the Subs.
> 
> Still not much of a Merc hands guy, though, and I don't see that changing.
> 
> ...


Ditto! Many a good watch have ben ruined by either the merc hands or the leaf hands. You got yourself some nice watches designed here.

Any consideration to a throwback 40mm field/military watch down the line?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Ditto! Many a good watch have ben ruined by either the merc hands or the leaf hands. You got yourself some nice watches designed here.
> 
> Any consideration to a throwback 40mm field/military watch down the line?


I'll add it to the list of other suggestions.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Just posted a review of the Antilles:
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=4332330


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)




----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

I still love that Antilles. So good. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> I was never a snowflake guy, either, until we started working on the Subs.
> 
> Still not much of a Merc hands guy, though, and I don't see that changing.
> 
> ...


So the Santa Fe has your least favourite hands. And your solution to this problem is to commission a bespoke build swapping in your second-least favourite hands. Lol ?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

As if my santa fe wont have swords...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keefy said:


> So the Santa Fe has your least favourite hands. And your solution to this problem is to commission a bespoke build swapping in your second-least favourite hands. Lol 


I was almost done typing out a detailed, explanatory response, when my browser locked up, and I had to close it down.

Poof - response gone.

I'm not retyping it all.

Snowflake hands have grown on me. I no longer mind them, and actually like them.

I'll spare you the rest of the explanation. Suffice to say that my choices in replacement handsets for the planned mod project were limited to the snowflakes or the snowflakes.

EDIT/PS - well, it seems the image was preserved. Witness part of the reason I'm having the hands replaced - mismatched lume colors between the hands from the donor watch (Oberon v.2 proto) and reject Santa Fe prototype dial:


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Poof - response gone.
> 
> I'm not retyping it all.


Sorry, none was needed.

I've been awake since 4am, I am clearly in "one of those moods".


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Long story, but since you asked...
> 
> *1. Euros need to brush up on their logic and math skills. Not looking to offend anyone, but I don't know how many times I can do this...
> 
> ...


That's a lot of [email protected]@mn words.....lol 

Instagram - Dec1968watches


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dec1968 said:


> That's a lot of [email protected]@mn words.....lol
> 
> Instagram - Dec1968watches


"And I'm going to quote them all..."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



rpm1974 said:


> "And I'm going to quote them all..."
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


BINGO!

Instagram - Dec1968watches


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

All of these photos of Azores!!! Everywhere I look its Azores!!! A few Antilles here and there too! It is safe to say that the NTH Tropics are HOT!

But I'm still out of town, and so I still haven't seen my up close and personal.

So, I've decided that this thread needs more RICCARDO!!!
















You all might be enjoying the newest of Doc's great watches... but I'm still loving the oldest of Doc's great watches!!! The one that started it all!

(The Riccardo, Orthos blue/orange, and Santa Cruz traveled with me... great travelling companions!!!)


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

I need more Lew and Huey watches in my life. Time for some new releases Chris!!


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Back at my hotel after a day of meetings. I am really enjoying wearing the Antilles!!!










The blue sunburst dial truly is stunning and the whole watch has a classic and elegant feel to it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Yeah, c'mon, Chris. Who cares about the Azores x 2 and Antilles x 4, and Ghost Rider in however many variations, and the round of Subs 2.0 in I think four more--all of which are being released within a couple months of each other--we want MOAR new releases. Get up off your fat Philly behind and give us what we want!


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

hwa said:


> Yeah, c'mon, Chris. Who cares about the Azores x 2 and Antilles x 4, and Ghost Rider in however many variations, and the round of Subs 2.0 in I think four more--all of which are being released within a couple months of each other--we want MOAR new releases. Get up off your fat Philly behind and give us what we want!


I get your point, but those are all _NTH _releases.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Well...

There's the Ghost Rider. That's an L&H, and kind of new.

I've got something else "new" planned for L&H, reveal coming within the next 60-90 days, hopefully.

I'm kind of in the process of re-jiggering the brands and models under each, but it's a slow process.


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

I've never really liked the 'bead of rice' type bracelets until seeing these on the NTHs. 

Good pairing Doc


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> I've got something else "new" planned for L&H, reveal coming within the next 60-90 days, hopefully.


<Fingers crossed> Hoping these will be in the 42 - 44mm range...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

To those who didn't buy one of the NTH models, because you weren't fond of one of the aspects (hands, face, band, etc...), further proof they CAN be modded....

Thanks @jelliotz!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> To those who didn't buy one of the NTH models, because you weren't fond of one of the aspects (hands, face, band, etc...), further proof they CAN be modded....
> 
> Thanks @jelliotz!
> 
> View attachment 11846346


Naturally you will get a strap with BLUE STITCHES for that, right?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> Naturally you will get a strap with BLUE STITCHES for that, right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have this watch in the perfect "nothing matches" balance at the moment. I really want to see what it looks like with all the different lume on it. I'll have to carefully consider my options for a strap.

Thanks to John, I've learned that there are about 50,000 different dials and handsets available on eBay.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

watchuck said:


> <Fingers crossed> Hoping these will be in the 42 - 44mm range...


<fingers crossed>. Hopefully not.


----------



## Tom Kelly (Apr 6, 2015)

I'm dreaming of a 38mm NTH dress watch on a high quality leather strap!


----------



## Tom Kelly (Apr 6, 2015)

The dreaded double post.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just typed, then deleted, two separate responses to the current sub-topic of what's in the production pipeline, one serious, but kind of funny, the other funny, but deadly serious.

I can't do it anymore, at least not today. I don't have it in me to entertain the discussion. You'll all have to just wait and see, but in the meantime, feel free to do what you do, and speculate and/or drop those not-so-subtle hints.

I can't promise anyone anything other than you'll want some of what we'll have, so you should start building the watch funds back up to pre-Subs/pre-Tropics levels.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I can't promise anyone anything other than you'll want some of what we'll have, so you should start building the watch funds back up to pre-Subs/pre-Tropics levels.


What he said. Trust me when I say there will be something for just about everyone in the coming months... unless you're into the 55mm+ Invicta Reserve style. In that case, not so much.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Had a hole in one yesterday while playing golf and I received my white Antilles this morning:
That's a hole in one, two (too  )
Love it, the bracelet is superb, case it's great, dial and crystal are real eye catchers...









Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> Well...
> 
> There's the Ghost Rider. That's an L&H, and kind of new.
> 
> ...


Color me excited. And seems to be likely a few hundred bucks less with this announcement


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> I can't promise anyone anything other than you'll want some of what we'll have, so you should start building the watch funds back up to pre-Subs/pre-Tropics levels.


Just please tell us where you'll announce these L&H or NTH projects...


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

fearlessleader said:


> Just please tell us where you'll announce these L&H or NTH projects...


"I will announce them in my bathroom."

Ric


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> Color me excited. And seems to be likely a few hundred bucks less with this announcement


Go back and read the Commander threads and the ghost ride is the other way it could have gone very interesting there was some call for the phantom case and the bezel looks like the bond specter limited


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

fearlessleader said:


> Just please tell us where you'll announce these L&H or NTH projects...


Surely (Shirley) you can't be serious...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> Surely (Shirley) you can't be serious...


It was just my way of saying: Just a waitin'


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I figure I'll announce it the same way I've announced every single previous model for the last four years - email newsletter and social media.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I figure I'll announce it the same way I've announced every single previous model for the last four years - email newsletter and social media.


Capucho beat you to it, Chris. He said you'd announce it from the bathroom... When has Capucho ever been wrong, and when have you ever sent an email from someplace other than the seat of your Sir Thomas Crapper?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Capucho beat you to it, Chris. He said you'd announce it from the bathroom... When has Capucho ever been wrong, and when have you ever sent an email from someplace other than the seat of your Sir Thomas Crapper?


Goddam Capucho.

How many taps does it take to get to the talky center of a Tapatalk? The world may never know...


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

hwa said:


> Capucho beat you to it, Chris. He said you'd announce it from the bathroom... When has Capucho ever been wrong, and when have you ever sent an email from someplace other than the seat of your Sir Thomas Crapper?


And to make this announcement even more unique, he's going to fart it in Morse code.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> And to make this announcement even more unique, he's going to fart it in Morse code.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wait, what?

Four taps and a moisturizer strip help the all new Tapatalk give you a great talk without causing embarrassing bumps and irritation.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Yarrr! Now that's some nice booty!










I suppose that would have worked better with a case back pic...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

docvail said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> Four taps and a moisturizer strip help the all new Tapatalk give you a great talk without causing embarrassing bumps and irritation.


It would likely go viral. Gazillions of views would generate sales.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

hawkeye86 said:


> It would likely go viral. Gazillions of views would generate sales.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Should go without saying that if Doc farts, it most definitely will go viral.

(Goodness sakes, but these softballs are easy to hit.)


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

You hit those softballs they'll splatter. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

hawkeye86 said:


> And to make this announcement even more unique, he's going to fart it in Morse code.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'd strongly advise to take some lessons from "le Pétomane" (the great fartist), mr Joseph Pujol himself. For your viewing pleasure: 



 - if you want to actually HEAR something, there is a YouTube where he farts the French national hymn. Oh, the irony.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

hwa said:


> Should go without saying that if Doc farts, it most definitely will go viral.


How 'viral'?

I could do without contracting digital pink-eye


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

I'll just leave this here






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

*"The value of being a bit of an a-hole, publicly..."*

If you had to guess (read: I'm asking you to guess), what percentage of any random business's customers would you think are "problem customers" for that business?

1%?

5%?

10%?

One of my peers, another micro brand owner, was relating the story of a problem customer today, and it got me wondering, especially as I heard another similar story from another peer just recently.

I asked a few people, and they generally guessed 1%-5%. I probably would have guessed the same.

When I asked a couple of WIS friends, who know how WIS are, they guessed 5%-10%.

Would you believe that after going back through my records and memory, as best as I can figure, my rate of wanting to murder a customer is only 0.25%-0.5%? It's about 1 for every 200-400 watches I sell, and that's including some cases where the problem wasn't really that big.

I'd say only about half the people who made the list are folks I'd actually warn other micro-brands not to sell anything to, lest they regret it later, and the other half are just weird guys who proved to be a bit detached from reality, but whose names I'd never know were it not for them making themselves obvious in some way.

I have no way of knowing if that's "good" or "bad", but all things considered (huge defect rate on our first model, my tendency towards bombast, the OCD-ish tendencies of the typical WIS, etc), it seems good, I think.

I'm not about to infer that the remaining 99.5%-99.75% are all 100% "happy", as I'm sure there's some small percentage who are unhappy but managed to remain silent. Still, it does seem like we're somewhere around the 99% mark for satisfied customers, and I'll take that as a win.

Whenever someone remarks about by general bluntness (or rudeness, or whatever people want to call it), and suggests it somehow hurts my business, part of me can't help but think I'm doing myself a favor, if, by presenting myself as someone with a low tolerance for BS, that dissuades the worst BS'ers from even attempting it with me, or simply persuades them to preemptively take their business elsewhere, especially as the 1 guy in 200-400 who becomes a problem takes up exponentially more time and energy than the other 199-399 who seem happy with what we're doing.

It's also endlessly amusing to me, when I read people's comments about the "good" or "bad" service from this or that competitor of mine, many of whom I know and have spoken to personally, and most of whom generally have the same sort of approach I do, when it comes to handling customers.

I tend to take all the stories of "bad" service with a grain of salt, and wonder what sort of BS the person doing the complaining tried to pull. Likewise, the stories of "good" service will often conjure up a fond memory of the micro brand owner unloading on some idiot who pushed things too far.

This is a weird business.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> *"The value of being a bit of an a-hole, publicly..."*
> 
> This is a weird business.


You think your business is weird? You need to spend a day in my shoes........

I have had MULTIPLE customers threaten my life, or threaten to come down and kick my you know what.......

The only guy that showed up to attempt to perform the deed gave me no warning. His family called me and told me to lock the doors because Kevin was going to come down and "tear the place up." As we hung up the phone, he stormed in, fists cocked, screaming for me. I managed to talk him down (lucky probably for both of us....he was a huge figure standing well north of 6'2").....

One client threatened to kill me because we forgot to give him the two anti-inflammatory pills in the pill bottle. He called me a crook, and I was stealing from him because we intentionally left the bottle empty. Despite my logical attempt to explain...... "an empty bottle is not a good way for me to "skim", rather charging for 28 pills and giving 26 is more logical..." he would have non of it spewing multiple curses and threats until I invited him to come to the hospital to see if his face could cash the checks his mouth wrote.....he too did not show.

Then, I had a client call my wife "Satan" because we would not fill more pain pills for his pet (he should have had a full months supply when he asked for more), and he told her he was going to kill her with his mind......(something I'm sure you are practicing)......

I could go on and on and on and on. like the pert commercials...

I have fired my share of clients. Boy it feels good. Another practice close to me gives his staff one Christmas gift per year. They get to fire one client as long as they can all agree on who it is. They have abdicated their bonuses for this power.........


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Everyone remembers the bad experiences but unfortunately, we often forget the good experiences.

I work in the roofing industry, and roofers are such an odd bunch of people. When I make a mistake serving a Roofer an order, I do hear it from them and often in a very foul manner. It is important to bring the situation down a notch and the easiest way to do that is to find a way that correlates you both. I am a joker and have often rubbed people the wrong way. I guess because of this I have found it easy to de-escalate the situations I find myself in.

Hats of to people like Doc, and other business owners on these boards that quite often hear more of the bad then good. It is tough deal with it but because of your resolve, I have to believe is which makes you all successful. 

Ok enough kissing ass and have a great short week for all the Canadians here. All you Americans, enjoy your upcoming long weekend!!!!!


----------



## 2535.80 (Mar 20, 2012)

Really digging the Azores.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Commander tonight









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

NTH sub on a NTH tropic band...ka'chow!!









Tapatalked using my GS7Edge


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Fiyah!!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

kpjimmy said:


> NTH sub on a NTH tropic band...ka'chow!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


SUCH a good combo.

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Long story, but since you asked...
> 
> *1. Euros need to brush up on their logic and math skills. Not looking to offend anyone, but I don't know how many times I can do this...
> 
> ...


*Make it a sticky
*
Just catching up with some of the back-story now that I will shortly be joining this marvelous, Select Club of NTH-isti.

An issue that we all - well mostly all - suffer from is "out of sight and out of mind" syndrome. Because I may be loitering with no-intent it's ever so easy to fall into the trap of thinking that the person at the other end of the phone/e-mail is equally as busy doing not-a-lot and idly snap-chatting or tweeting their life away. More often than not, there will be many, many plates spinning on the end of long flexible sticks and thankfully, we will not hear the shattering of said plates when the inevitable crash occurs. We so do live in a mouse-click, want to consume it now World. "Where the hell is my Antilles???" I'm sure you get what I'm saying.

It's blindingly obvious that Chris has many, many plates suspended aloft all of the time, such is the pain of running any business these days; how he fits in the time to focus on designs that require an almost neurotic attention to detail is beyond my ken, he obviously has that "passion". You can see that "passion" in several of the other micro watch makers and how they keep that flame burning whilst having to simultaneously sell the manifest labour of their love would be much too tough an ask for this mere mortal. One thing for me personally, is that it will be a micro that gets my attention nearly all of the time now, so much more satisfying.

What prompted my response to the e-mail above is that Chris has gone to extraordinary lengths to explain some very nuanced business decisions, many thanks for that Chris, I for one appreciate your openness.

Anyway, I feel that it would be useful to make the above e-mail from Chris a sticky or a "read this first" entry somewhere. As a customer it goes a long way in relieving me of any doubts or inbuilt bias I may have about how a particular business model works and as a, er, ahem, Euro, I will know for certain it is only the Revenue & Customs who will be stiffing me for my hard earned.

As for customs, I have purchased several items - including watches - from several countries over the past year, some have been impounded until I have coughed-up, however, I have won more than I have lost so I'm probably well over evens on this. It's a constant battle and a fact of life living in this jungle.

Thanks again for your frankness Chris and for taking the time to visit this forum and sharing your time with us.

Cheers,

Alan

P.S. All taxes are theft


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> *Make it a sticky
> *
> Just catching up with some of the back-story now that I will shortly be joining this marvelous, Select Club of NTH-isti.
> 
> ...


You had me at "taxation is theft."

Four taps and a moisturizer strip help the all new Tapatalk give you a great talk without causing embarrassing bumps and irritation.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

I think that we have all been had with the Tax-Man...

Ironically, it will be "Tax-Free Day" here in the U.K. in a few days time, what's that you say - Tax Free? Not quite that; for the majority of salaried workers over here, all of their earnings from January the 1st until now are the equivalent of the taxation that they will pay in all of the various taxes imposed for a whole year, from then it's all yours. It'll be much the same in the U.S. probably, but, Jeez - 5 months slavery for??? And what do governments actually make? that's right, absolutely nothing, except mistakes of course.

Enough already, rant over, let's get back to those luvverlee timepieces....

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Ragl said:


> I think that we have all been had with the Tax-Man...
> 
> Ironically, it will be "Tax-Free Day" here in the U.K. in a few days time, what's that you say - Tax Free? Not quite that; for the majority of salaried workers over here, all of their earnings from January the 1st until now are the equivalent of the taxation that they will pay in all of the various taxes imposed for a whole year, from then it's all yours. It'll be much the same in the U.S. probably, but, Jeez - 5 months slavery for??? And what do governments actually make? that's right, absolutely nothing, except mistakes of course.
> 
> ...


Come come, you get that fancy free healthcare (which is what you're paying for) and that fancy free university (again, paying for). I mean, if they're taking from you to pay for something for everyone, at least get good value for it.

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Hear what your saying vmarks, as for the free healthcare, nothing fancy there mate I'm afraid; great, if you don't mind queuing - I need a hip replacement, "can you come back in 2 years?", you don't mind whilst we deal with this person from the Middle East who arrived yesterday and hasn't made the contributions that you have for over 40 years....... As for free university, wow, that disappeared over 30 years ago, it's been student loans (debt) since then, just like in the 'States. My generation was fortunate - we did have the opportunity for free university and with real, meaningful subject courses. I didn't take up the Uni offer and got my education in other ways, did I lose out? nope, oil & gas has been good to me since the mid 70s and I am currently a Consultant Quality Engineer in the energy sector.
As for our much lauded NHS, having seen it when it was quality and didn't kill you - there have been some bad cases over the past 20 years - it has become a shadow of what it once was, due mainly to government interfering and management self importance, tragic, especially when people die due to gross ineptitude and misconduct. I do not exaggerate.

Anyway, apart from the hip I'm in great shape, and intend to stay that way to ensure that I maintain full Antilles support mode. Did you see what I did there?, have you fed those carrier pigeons yet Chris?

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

TLDR


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

I may have missed it but was the social media winner announced?


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> I may have missed it but was the social media winner announced?












Four taps and a moisturizer strip help the all new Tapatalk give you a great talk without causing embarrassing bumps and irritation.


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

NTH Antilles black on tropic rubber strap.










Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> I think that we have all been had with the Tax-Man...
> 
> Ironically, it will be "Tax-Free Day" here in the U.K. in a few days time, what's that you say - Tax Free? Not quite that; for the majority of salaried workers over here, all of their earnings from January the 1st until now are the equivalent of the taxation that they will pay in all of the various taxes imposed for a whole year, from then it's all yours. It'll be much the same in the U.S. probably, but, Jeez - 5 months slavery for??? And what do governments actually make? that's right, absolutely nothing, except mistakes of course.
> 
> ...


Lucky you...
The day of "tax liberation" in France is towards the end of July!
And when you see results at the recent elections you have to guess they people love slavery so much they demand more of it every time (but I guess it's like Bastiat said, they're fine being slaves provided others suffer even more)...
Anyway, fingers crossed that when my Sub gen2 comes it escapes the ever so greedy tax man. If only for ethical reasons!
And just to make the post less boring, a random pic of the white Antilles...









Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Can we skip the politics and focus on the watches?


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

docvail said:


> Four taps and a moisturizer strip help the all new Tapatalk give you a great talk without causing embarrassing bumps and irritation.


Thank you sir and congrats to the winner.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Hunting for Gaudi in Barcelona.



















Really enjoying the Orthos in this beautiful sunshine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sgt.brimer (Mar 20, 2015)

Happy End of May!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Why not?


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Still honeymooning









Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

indeed!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Watcher said:


> indeed!
> 
> View attachment 11993154


That strap is ridonkulous.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

The Watcher said:


> indeed!
> 
> View attachment 11993154


Hello mr. Fancystraps!

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

The Watcher said:


> indeed!
> 
> View attachment 11993154


Where did you get this strap?

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

I think I wanna jump on the funky town train...









Tapatalked using my GS7Edge


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> I think I wanna jump on the funky town train...
> 
> 
> 
> ...












Four taps and a moisturizer strip help the all new Tapatalk give you a great talk without causing embarrassing bumps and irritation.


----------



## Mezzly (Feb 4, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Four taps and a moisturizer strip help the all new Tapatalk give you a great talk without causing embarrassing bumps and irritation.


I see what you did there 









How many talks would a Tapatalk tap if a Tapatalk could tap talks?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Mezzly said:


> I see what you did there
> 
> 
> 
> ...












Four taps and a moisturizer strip help the all new Tapatalk give you a great talk without causing embarrassing bumps and irritation.


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

A couple of NTH subs hanging out at last night's RedBarToronto gtg.









Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just a quick PSA -

For anyone who likes a good, fast-paced shoot-em-up novel, along the lines of a Tom Clancy or Lee Child, check out the works of Dominic Adler (who is also a bit of a watch-geek, as it happens).

They're all available for download to e-readers (or purchase in paperback), here:

https://www.amazon.com/Dominic-Adler/e/B00EYKGN26/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1

I just finished "The Devil's Work", the second in the Cal Winter series, after burning through "The Ninth Circle". I have to say I found the stories and characters more realistic and believable than a fair number of other books made into movies by Hollywood.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, DevilRay...

http://www.janistrading.com/blog/a-sneak-peek-at-the-upcoming-nth-devil-ray-part-one/


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

September / October? I can make that work... whew



docvail said:


> Also, DevilRay...
> 
> A sneak peek at the upcoming NTH DevilRay (part one...) - Janis Trading Company


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> Also, DevilRay...
> 
> http://www.janistrading.com/blog/a-sneak-peek-at-the-upcoming-nth-devil-ray-part-one/


Cool.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Digging the case and bracelet renders on that Devil Ray👍

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

A colored minute hand would be superb, methinks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ruggs said:


> A colored minute hand would be superb, methinks.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sit tight...all will be revealed soon enough.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I can confirm the minute hand will not be a simple brushed metallic.

I can also confirm that the last set of renders Rusty did had the teeth on the crown going the wrong way.


----------



## Ossamanity (Nov 28, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Ossamanity said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Also, DevilRay...
> 
> A sneak peek at the upcoming NTH DevilRay (part one...) - Janis Trading Company


Orange...turquoise blue....yummmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## backpacker416 (Jul 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> I can confirm the minute hand will not be a simple brushed metallic.
> 
> I can also confirm that the last set of renders Rusty did had the teeth on the crown going the wrong way.
> 
> ...


Looks like a real winner there sir!


----------



## backpacker416 (Jul 18, 2011)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



LifeTrekker said:


> Sent via the grapevine
> 
> Follow me on Instagram @lifetrekker_


For me, this is by far one the best looking watches out there!!! Its on my list


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Thanks guys. I'm looking forward to revealing more. 

The design was "final" about a month ago, but even now, after dozens of messages back and forth with my factory, there are little tweaks being made, and I've learned I don't really enjoy having to answer questions about why some little thing changed between version 1.1 and 1.2, especially when the questions also come with "I liked it better the other way," so it's better if I hold off as long as I can before doing the full reveal.

I hope to have a "FINAL final" version before the end of the week, and ideally, a 3D file to give to Rusty, so he can start ginning up some better views.


----------



## backpacker416 (Jul 18, 2011)

Docvail, love your brand(I assume it is). The Nacken has struck a cord with me and will be mine someday!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



backpacker416 said:


> For me, this is by far one the best looking watches out there!!! Its on my list


And that wasn't event the production version, just the prototype. The production version had the white-framed hands.


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

backpacker416 said:


> Docvail, love your brand(I assume it is). The Nacken has struck a cord with me and will be mine someday!


Welcome to the slippery slope! Might as well just give doc the login to your checking acct!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

backpacker416 said:


> Docvail, love your brand(I assume it is). The Nacken has struck a cord with me and will be mine someday!


Thanks, and it is.

I don't know how far Baton Rouge is from NOLA, but if it's not stupid-far, you may want to link up with Rusty (rpm1974) and bend his ear about doing a local GTG. He's got the largest collection of L&H and NTH watches south of the Mason Dixon.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ruggs said:


> Welcome to the slippery slope! Might as well just give doc the login to your checking acct!


I think Bill (Cowboys superfan) was looking into having a portion of his paycheck direct deposited into my account every week, like a reverse-layaway, and I could just send him each new model as we come out with them.


----------



## backpacker416 (Jul 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Thanks, and it is.
> 
> I don't know how far Baton Rouge is from NOLA, but if it's not stupid-far, you may want to link up with Rusty (rpm1974) and bend his ear about doing a local GTG. He's got the largest collection of L&H and NTH watches south of the Mason Dixon.


Its only an hour or so, depends on traffic and how fast you go! lol I usually go once/twice a month. Thanks for that info, Ill shoot him a PM here shortly.


----------



## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



backpacker416 said:


> For me, this is by far one the best looking watches out there!!! Its on my list


Oh, so you like the Näcken do ya?










Well, I kinda like it too.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



docvail said:


> And that wasn't event the production version, just the prototype. The production version had the white-framed hands.
> 
> View attachment 12051026


I used to think the Amphion Modern was the one, but I can't get the Nacken out of my head. I think it is the new front runner. Even the barracuda looks sharp.

I was never a snowflake guy but this watch just pulls it all together perfectly. Maybe a black date version down the road.

Nice work doc.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



Shockwave said:


> I used to think the Amphion Modern was the one, but I can't get the Nacken out of my head. I think it is the new front runner. Even the barracuda looks sharp.
> 
> I was never a snowflake guy but this watch just pulls it all together perfectly. Maybe a black date version down the road.
> 
> Nice work doc.


*cough* Barracuda *cough*


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



docvail said:


> *cough* Barracuda *cough*


I need a date feature, complication of working shift work is you never know what day it is.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



Shockwave said:


> I need a date feature, complication of working shift work is you never know what day it is.


*cough* Nacken *cough*

I think we needs some 'tussin. Feels like I'm coming down with something...


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



docvail said:


> *cough* Nacken *cough*
> 
> I think we needs some 'tussin. Feels like I'm coming down with something...


I think got something for that. When will the new nacken moderns with date be available?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



Shockwave said:


> I think got something for that. When will the new nacken moderns with date be available?


I dunno. I figure we should finish the current batch in production before we start on the next batch.

Maybe later this year?

I'm not trying to be cagey, but with the Ghost Rider and the current batch of Subs in production right now, the DevilRay in prototyping, and another couple of projects still percolating under the surface, it's getting hard for me to look too far ahead.

I kind of wanted to be sold out for a little while, to give people who pre-ordered the first batch a chance to pump the used prices up a bit.

Not for nothing, but considering there hasn't been a Nacken Modern (the most popular version in the first batch, and thus the one made in the largest numbers) up for sale in a month, they're all selling WAYYYY too cheap, IMO. No one's asking what the Subs (or the Tropics, for that matter) are truly worth.

If I was selling a used NTH Sub in good condition, one of the sold-out versions, I'd be asking at least $500 for it, firm. Anything less is leaving money on the table. But nobody realizes it because the first couple to sell sold for just over the early-bird pre-order pricing, which set the market price too low. But it's supply and demand. Ask someone who has one what they want for theirs, and see if they don't tell you they wouldn't part with it for less than $550.

The new prices were $625 - and WE SOLD OUT. Why anyone would sell one for less than $500 is beyond me.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

People are strange
When you're a stranger
Leave cash on the table



Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

:think: 

:-x 

o|


----------



## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



docvail said:


> I dunno. I figure we should finish the current batch in production before we start on the next batch.
> 
> Maybe later this year?
> 
> ...


Personally, mine ain't goin' anywhere, unless I fall on some really hard times.










Same thing goes for my Oberon date. These watches are definitely two of my faves. They punch way above their weight class.










Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Oh man!!! a mini GTG in Toronto and I did not know..I was out on the town watching the Specials at Danforth Music hall!!! I would have loved to see these in person. To touch em, and squeeze em, and call em all George!!!!

DOC!!!! DevilRay.......My god!!! this is awesome. I silently spend a lil extra time in the shower thinking of the Nacken and Santa Cruz..(I may or may not whisper your name!!)
But this 1 WOW!!. I am excited to see the finish piece as well as price. It might just be my Christmas present to myself. Thanks for the tease.



jonathanp77 said:


> A couple of NTH subs hanging out at last night's RedBarToronto gtg.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I silently spend a lil extra time in the shower thinking of the Nacken and Santa Cruz..(I may or may not whisper your name!!).












Be sure to consult with your physician before beginning a Tapatalk regimen.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> I think Bill (Cowboys superfan) was looking into having a portion of his paycheck direct deposited into my account every week, like a reverse-layaway, and I could just send him each new model as we come out with them.


Are you saying this is an option!?!? Why wasn't I informed earlier!!!


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

Sea Devil looks killer Doc. Pressure is on for the dial and hands now!!......
Thanks for the 6 o clock date option! That, plus that bracelet (and the L2L length) mean I'm about 4/5ths committed already....

Out of interest doc, are all your current projects/ideas focused on divers or might there be anything 38-40mm non-dressy 'dress' watch. Cos I want one, and if there was anything in the pipeline I'd willingly sit tight to see what unfolds.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Keefy said:


> Sea Devil looks killer Doc. Pressure is on for the dial and hands now!!......
> Thanks for the 6 o clock date option! That, plus that bracelet (and the L2L length) mean I'm about 4/5ths committed already....
> 
> Out of interest doc, are all your current projects/ideas focused on divers or might there be anything 38-40mm non-dressy 'dress' watch. Cos I want one, and if there was anything in the pipeline I'd willingly sit tight to see what unfolds.


**cough** Aqua Terra inspired **cough**

Where's that tussin at?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keefy said:


> Sea Devil looks killer Doc. Pressure is on for the dial and hands now!!......
> Thanks for the 6 o clock date option! That, plus that bracelet (and the L2L length) mean I'm about 4/5ths committed already....
> 
> Out of interest doc, are all your current projects/ideas focused on divers or might there be anything 38-40mm non-dressy 'dress' watch. Cos I want one, and if there was anything in the pipeline I'd willingly sit tight to see what unfolds.


No, all the current projects are not exclusively focused on divers.

Yes, there might be anything 38-40mm non-dressy 'dress' watch in the pipeline.


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> No, all the current projects are not exclusively focused on divers.
> 
> Yes, there might be anything 38-40mm non-dressy 'dress' watch in the pipeline.


May I subscribe to the monthly payment plan too then please! lol


----------



## Mezzly (Feb 4, 2014)

I'd actually be really interested to see a doc vail take on an actual "dressy dress watch". 
I love the idea of Chris trying to be all refined, sticking out his pinky finger whilst drinking tea etc.


How many talks would a Tapatalk tap if a Tapatalk could tap talks?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mezzly said:


> I'd actually be really interested to see a doc vail take on an actual "dressy dress watch".
> I love the idea of Chris trying to be all refined, sticking out his pinky finger whilst drinking tea etc.
> 
> How many talks would a Tapatalk tap if a Tapatalk could tap talks?


Just like Denzel.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

Dressy Dress Watch reminds me of...









All in the name of Science! (with a nod to Thomas Dolby...) :-!


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



docvail said:


> Ask someone who has one what they want for theirs, and see if they don't tell you they wouldn't part with it for less than $550.


I have mine on today and I definitely wouldn't sell it for less than $600. Why would I? It's the perfect size for me, superbly readable, and super looking.

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Azores tonight









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Antilles Champagne... the treasure goblin struck gold!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## backpacker416 (Jul 18, 2011)

Is there a list to be put on when certain watches(Nacken) become available?


----------



## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

backpacker416 said:


> Is there a list to be put on when certain watches(Nacken) become available?


If you want a used one, I would suggest downloading the Watchrecon app and setting NTH as a search term. However, as Doc has already mentioned, the initial flow of used Näcken Moderns has slowed to a trickle. But you never know, a crazy person might just decide to sell theirs.

If you want a new one, then I would suggest heading over to Doc's Janistrading.com web site and signing up for his newsletter. That way you'll be on his email list for future product announcements.

And you can always hang out here. This is a pretty good place to catch Doc's pre-sale announcements too.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

It's also worth keep commenting and mentioning you are after one.
I happened to comment I was after one (on Facebook) after I missed out on the Massdrop run and someone PM'd me offering me his.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Hummmm that Sea Devil project looks so very tempting... Get the hands and dial right (and I'm sure you will) and I'll be all over that one ! Would be my third NTH in not too long...

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Antilles is here!!

The postman just dropped this through the letter-box letting me know my Antilles is finally in the Drop-Zone. It's a demand for an outrageous import duty, but, I don't mind, the Antilles is a must have and if I have to be mugged by the revenue for my life savings, so be it.

So I will shortly be rushing off to the post office in Shrewsbury, pay over the bail-bond and I will finally have this beauty in my trembling hands.

To be continued.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Antilles is here!!
> 
> The postman just dropped this through the letter-box letting me know my Antilles is finally in the Drop-Zone. It's a demand for an outrageous import duty, but, I don't mind, the Antilles is a must have and if I have to be mugged by the revenue for my life savings, so be it.
> 
> ...


Her majesty's tax collectors always get their man.

Still, though, not including the obnoxious fee, and if I know my maths, that's just a hair over 13% of what you paid. Considering the VAT in the UK is 20%, it could have been worse.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Those of you who purchased one of the first batch of NTH Subs, particularly those with one for sale on f29, ought to be happy to hear that all the Subs are now sold out.

So...I'm not saying you should ask more for yours, but...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Those of you who purchased one of the first batch of NTH Subs, particularly those with one for sale on f29, ought to be happy to hear that all the Subs are now sold out.
> 
> So...I'm not saying you should ask more for yours, but...


Also, while I'm at it, we're down to single-digit inventory on every version of the NTH Tropics.

If you're sitting around, thinking, "meh, I'll get around to buying one eventually," you may not want to drag your feet.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Quick interpretation of my late night, half asleep post the other night:

:think: Very interested in more info (especially renders) on the upcoming release. Looks/ sounds great so far. I like the turtlish/sumoishness (yep, just did that) of it while being slightly smaller then turtles and sumos. If they are as impressive as the Tropics then :-!. Also interested to check out that new fangled lume all the kids are raving about these days. :think:

:-x Must resist :-x

o| Been technically "trying" (semi successfully) to thin, not thicken the heard. On top of that I usually end up going for multiples of Docs servings. Watch reveal is later and availability is much later. Me want now. Can not wait. Hulk SMASH o|

So yeah, can't wait. Thanks for the emotional roller coaster. I'll be sure to forward all therapy bills your way ;-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Quick interpretation of my late night, half asleep post the other night:
> 
> :think: Very interested in more info (especially renders) on the upcoming release. Looks/ sounds great so far. I like the turtlish/sumoishness (yep, just did that) of it while being slightly smaller then turtles and sumos. If they are as impressive as the Tropics then :-!. Also interested to check out that new fangled lume all the kids are raving about these days. :think:
> 
> ...


Mmmmmyyyyeeeaaahhhhh...sorry/not sorry.

You're gonna want to go easy on your forehead and that wall. Save some for later. I've still got another project to reveal, one that's likely to have an overlapping pre-order and production cycle.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> I've still got another project to reveal, one that's likely to have an overlapping pre-order and production cycle.


Hmmm really? Is it another diver, or something a little more niche?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Mmmmmyyyyeeeaaahhhhh...sorry/not sorry.
> 
> You're gonna want to go easy on your forehead and that wall. Save some for later. I've still got another project to reveal, one that's likely to have an overlapping pre-order and production cycle.


Gee thanx guy. YOU ROCK :-! .................. NOT


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> Hmmm really? Is it another diver, or something a little more niche?


I'll let everyone know as soon as we're ready for everyone to know.

Be sure to consult with your physician before beginning a Tapatalk regimen.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Your dead right of course Doc, I did manage a small victory there - ironically, most of my recent watch purchases have been from the 'States and most of them have been a relative equitable win for me.

Now on to the Antilles, I can tell you that I feel immensely privileged to have such a exquisite piece of horological architecture. As a piece, the design and critical detailing are so well balanced it is such a joy to look at. From any angle it is obvious that each facet of the design has been microscopically sized and shaped to work within the whole scheme, it really does "flow" as you scan around and across the watch, the word beautiful does not do it justice. As you can tell from my thinly veiled enthusiasm, I am smitten; Mr. Vail your watches are masterpieces!!

I managed to grab a couple of photos with my phone whilst S.W.M.B.O. was otherwise engaged - yep, you guessed it, she is unaware the holiday budget has a slight dent in it because of my latest acquisition......









Must dash, she is lurking in the vicinity, in the meantime Doc, many, many thanks for this superlative creation and I promise that I'll start saving now for the next one.
All the very best.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> Your dead right of course Doc, I did manage a small victory there - ironically, most of my recent watch purchases have been from the 'States and most of them have been a relative equitable win for me.
> 
> Now on to the Antilles, I can tell you that I feel immensely privileged to have such a exquisite piece of horological architecture. As a piece, the design and critical detailing are so well balanced it is such a joy to look at. From any angle it is obvious that each facet of the design has been microscopically sized and shaped to work within the whole scheme, it really does "flow" as you scan around and across the watch, the word beautiful does not do it justice. As you can tell from my thinly veiled enthusiasm, I am smitten; Mr. Vail your watches are masterpieces!!
> 
> ...


So...wearing it with the plastic still on the bracelet is not an indication of your plan to sell it quickly then, but more likely an astute precaution to keep the bracelet pristine, for the eventual "going on holiday" liquidation sale?

I can't see any faults in that logic.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> So...wearing it with the plastic still on the bracelet is not an indication of your plan to sell it quickly then, but more likely an astute precaution to keep the bracelet pristine, for the eventual "going on holiday" liquidation sale?
> 
> I can't see any faults in that logic.


Sell it?? What are you saying Man?? Now if I could sell S.W.M.B.O....... or even liquidate..... no, belay that thought, it's too tempting. The devil is in the detail, I had to work quick this afternoon with Wife avoidance manouveurs and the photo was pre-removal of links - best keep the wrap on for that. Anyway, it is sized perfectly now, it wears an absolute treat and will be road-tested tomorrow on a trip up to Yorkshire. You can be sure if people don't notice the Antilles, it will be brought to their attention. One more thing, no probs with the clasp, it is perfect and looks great. Now I must go and discuss vacations with you know who...."Darling, I have some great news...."

Cheers,

Alan

edit - Events moved along even faster this week with the discovery of Massdrop, I do hope that the end - when it comes - is quick.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I prefer to keep mine wrapped in bubble wrap and feathers. 

On the other note: The more I read about the next one the more I like it. It appears to be what I have been quietly thinking about getting in a dive watch. The size, shape, date at 6, color options and of course the lumed cherry on top. I do however wish that you did not announce it already. Waiting is such sweet agony.....


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

Was switching back and forth between these two today to see which one feels better. Definitely prefer the size if the Nacken over the BB.









Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jonathanp77 said:


> Was switching back and forth between these two today to see which one feels better. Definitely prefer the size if the Nacken over the BB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't the BB just 41mm? Is it that different in how it wears?

Be sure to consult with your physician before beginning a Tapatalk regimen.


----------



## jonathanp77 (Jan 17, 2014)

docvail said:


> Isn't the BB just 41mm? Is it that different in how it wears?
> 
> Be sure to consult with your physician before beginning a Tapatalk regimen.


11.5mm thickness is the difference maker

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jonathanp77 said:


> 11.5mm thickness is the difference maker
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Oh, right.

And only 200m WR?

Too bad micro brands aren't innovating...

Be sure to consult with your physician before beginning a Tapatalk regimen.


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Oh, right.
> 
> And only 200m WR?
> 
> ...


Anyone diving past 200m isn't going to wearing a fancy stainless steel dive watch or post here to talk about it. 
Comment was all in good fun... More pics of the Devil Ray!!! Case and bracelet look great and the orange dial will be a big hit !

Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Also, while I'm at it, we're down to single-digit inventory on every version of the NTH Tropics.
> 
> If you're sitting around, thinking, "meh, I'll get around to buying one eventually," you may not want to drag your feet.











...what he said.

Antilles - Champagne


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jlow28 said:


> Anyone diving past 200m isn't going to wearing a fancy stainless steel dive watch or post here to talk about it.
> Comment was all in good fun... More pics of the Devil Ray!!! Case and bracelet look great and the orange dial will be a big hit !
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


Damn you, with your logic and flattery...

Be sure to consult with your physician before beginning a Tapatalk regimen.


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

It's not just the height of the BB, it's the way it carries that height. It's a flat slab with everything up top. Feels a good deal bigger than what the numbers suggest.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

one more for the cause...california dreamin'









Antilles - Champagne


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

Incidently, ...



docvail said:


> we decided to lume the living hell out of everything





docvail said:


> Too bad micro brands aren't innovating...


you're luming the date wheel aren't you!?


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

jonathanp77 said:


> Was switching back and forth between these two today to see which one feels better. Definitely prefer the size if the Nacken over the BB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am glad someone posted it already. I confessed in the confession thread some time ago about no-one believing me on that decision. I was in the market for a (used) BB ETA with the rose - but decided against it in favor for the näcken - because of the thickness. The BB is a nice watch, no question. But the value-packed näcken ticked more boxes.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I am glad someone posted it already. I confessed in the confession thread some time ago about no-one believing me on that decision. I was in the market for a (used) BB ETA with the rose - but decided against it in favor for the näcken - because of the thickness. The BB is a nice watch, no question. But the value-packed näcken ticked more boxes.


I played with the idea of a detailed response here but I will let it go. Instead I will simply correct one error in your post. The Black Bay is not a "nice watch", it is a freaking great watch.

Meanwhile back in Janis land... I was wondering Doc, how many more Ghost Riders are up for grabs still? If the full set is not pre ordered will you lower the production run, or delay production until all are sold?


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

I believed in you. 


Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keefy said:


> Incidently, ...
> 
> you're luming the date wheel aren't you!?


No.

Be sure to consult with your physician before beginning a Tapatalk regimen.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> I played with the idea of a detailed response here but I will let it go. Instead I will simply correct one error in your post. The Black Bay is not a "nice watch", it is a freaking great watch.
> 
> Meanwhile back in Janis land... I was wondering Doc, how many more Ghost Riders are up for grabs still? If the full set is not pre ordered will you lower the production run, or delay production until all are sold?


Some, no and no.

Be sure to consult with your physician before beginning a Tapatalk regimen.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Karkarov said:


> I played with the idea of a detailed response here but I will let it go.


Well, I'd like to read it - maybe you re-play that idea...

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

First day out for Antilles today, a trip up to a Yorkshire Steelworks on a quality surveillance visit for delivery of a steel billet - 12 tonnes of 316L any one? Don't care, I am ridiculously happy with my wrist sculpture that weighs in at just a few ounces; quality and quantity were never more divided. Talking of divided, the Omega Seamaster is now sulking in his box, it will be quite a while before he surfaces again, look what you have done, Doc.......









Cheers,

Alan

Have a great weekend everyone.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Facking Mr.Oh is pissing me off. I have $300 cad in my paypal account burning my ass so now it is my Watch savings account. gonna keep dropping coin each pay until the DevilRay is available for preorder I think. I would rather give the money to someone I can at least talk to without an confusion. Sounds rude but my Korean is almost as bad as his English.

Google translate = BAD with money talkie


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Facking Mr.Oh is pissing me off. I have $300 cad in my paypal account burning my ass so now it is my Watch savings account. gonna keep dropping coin each pay until the DevilRay is available for preorder I think. I would rather give the money to someone I can at least talk to without an confusion. Sounds rude but my Korean is almost as bad as his English.
> 
> Google translate = BAD with money talkie


Short sentences and pictures with circles and arrows.

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

Ragl said:


> View attachment 12079442


Minds me of this


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Yep, those "skellie" hands were a big part of the attraction for me.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, see you all in hell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Well, see you all in hell.
> 
> View attachment 12084058


Hah! Thanks, Jason!

Be sure to consult with your physician before beginning a Tapatalk regimen.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

All this talk about the new models, but the oldies still look pretty f'ing good too...


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

The Watcher said:


> one more for the cause...california dreamin'
> Antilles - Champagne


Very nice strap... where'd you get it / what is it please.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

^ germany - barington grey leather vintage 20mm - watch-band-center.com



fearlessleader said:


> Very nice strap... where'd you get it / what is it please.


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

I keep thinking about the Devil Ray and checking back to the blog post.
Then I see this!
Black sunburst dial, take my money now!!


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

HO! LEE!! SH1T!!! This thing looks mean (in a good way)!


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Awesome! Looking forward to the preorder! Not sure why entirely, cause it's fairly different, but it gives me an Enicar Sherpa vibe (which I love, but can't figure why they are 10-20x the price of other Enicar watches).

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Wow this looks outstanding - really nice color ways! - I can't get past the turtle, but this piece should sell at lightning speed


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

I am especially loving the saw tooth crown!! Such awesome attention to detail.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Awesome! Looking forward to the preorder! Not sure why entirely, cause it's fairly different, but it gives me an Enicar Sherpa vibe (which I love, but can't figure why they are 10-20x the price of other Enicar watches).
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Because there's a piece of an actual Himalayan Sherpa inside each one.

Suck it, Bremont, with your airplane parts. Enicar's putting people inside their watches.

People!!!


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Because there's a piece of an actual Himalayan Sherpa inside each one.
> 
> Suck it, Bremont, with your airplane parts. Enicar's putting people inside their watches.
> 
> People!!!


Nothimg new, humans have succesfully been used as an ingredient before

(i actually came here to say im really excited about the new nth rays)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

R.A.D. said:


> Nothimg new, humans have succesfully been used as an ingredient before
> 
> (i actually came here to say im really excited about the new nth rays)


Heh. That Glagnar always did have a knack for snacks.


----------



## MEzz (Jan 22, 2012)

The renders of the devil ray are very compelling. I am in!


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Heh. That Glagnar always did have a knack for snacks.


and cool slogans "its a buncha cruncha muncha human"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...I'm glad you guys like what you're seeing. 

Feel free to tell others. 

Besides not being a forum sponsor any more, which means I can't be as shameless in promoting new models here, I've been trying to stay out of most/all discussions about my watches, as much as I can, and limiting most of my discussion about NTH or L&H models to this thread.


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

I like the devil ray doc, nice work. 

Talk to me though, about the bracelet clasp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ruggs said:


> I like the devil ray doc, nice work.
> 
> Talk to me though, about the bracelet clasp.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just you, or all us girls?

Same expansion clasp that's on the Tropics, but all brushed, and without the micro adjustment holes, so we can avoid the confusion those caused a few people.

Bracelets will have two half links on each side for better size-ability.

Be sure to consult with your physician before beginning a Tapatalk regimen.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

That Devil Ray looks incredible Doc!
It reminds me of a mix between the Seiko Turtle and the Crepas DecoMaster!
I might be in for a black dial with a date/no date depending on how fast they sell!


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

First a Phantom, full-lume dial, date, DLC.

Then a Ghost Rider...still a ghost for now.

Now a DR date in either Black or Aqua Blue dial, but it's more a question of green or white X1.

Damn my obsession with 12-hr bezels on 40-44mm cases & 22mm lugs. Gotta have some candy when that sweet spot gets hit.

Nice shootin, Doc!


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

The orange or blue is there a texture or a flat color?


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

MikeCfromLI said:


> The orange or blue is there a texture or a flat color?


It will be a matte finish.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

You, sir, are certainly on a roll! Still on the fence on this but it does look sharp! I'll be monitoring attentively. Or, as my wife says, in an OCD induced mania.


----------



## aron (Feb 26, 2009)

The Devil Ray is amazing! I've been looking to add something to my modest collection and I think I just found it.


----------



## Uberyk (Nov 30, 2010)

Doc would you say the devil ray would wear small or large?
Us skinny wristed folks need to be careful when venturing past the 40mm mark.
Hoping it wears similar to the orthos commander at least.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Probably going to buy two of the Devilrays. You only live once, lol. I have four Orthos, so WTH.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Uberyk said:


> Doc would you say the devil ray would wear small or large?
> Us skinny wristed folks need to be careful when venturing past the 40mm mark.
> Hoping it wears similar to the orthos commander at least.


I don't know, Ryan. We'll have to see.


----------



## Guzmannosaurus (Apr 1, 2015)

How about a PVD version of the Devil Ray?


----------



## Uberyk (Nov 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> I don't know, Ryan. We'll have to see.


If you need a skinny wristed tester once/if you get to prototyping, let me know.
I can't promise that the proto won't get lost in the mail when it's time to return...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guzmannosaurus said:


> How about a PVD version of the Devil Ray?


Sorry, but no.

I've already got 8 different versions with date/no-date options, I'm not going to make it 16, just to do DLC, when it's such a low-demand thing. We did DLC with the Phantom, and the stainless versions sold much better.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Uberyk said:


> If you need a skinny wristed tester once/if you get to prototyping, let me know.
> I can't promise that the proto won't get lost in the mail when it's time to return...


I'm sure I can find a skinny wristed tester locally.


----------



## KJRye (Jul 28, 2014)

I'm liking the orange! Have had a hankering for an orange dial lately...

Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

The only thing that gets me out of the shower is the turtle. I am on the fence with that but the rest is foxah and you can call me Shirley instead of Suzy.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Uberyk said:


> Doc would you say the devil ray would wear small or large?
> Us skinny wristed folks need to be careful when venturing past the 40mm mark.
> Hoping it wears similar to the orthos commander at least.


Only because it can be fun to speculate, I will.

I think the most common watch that is also a very close match on the dimensions would be the Seiko SKX007/009, with dimensions of 42.5mm X 46mm X 13.25mm with 22mm lugs, compared to the DevilRay's 43mm X 46mm X 14mm + 22mm lugs.

I always thought the Seiko wore well, if a bit chunky, because of how square its dimensions are, and the way the bezel's diameter crowds the rest of the case out of view. In my mind's eye, it's all bezel, with four feet sticking out, the lower right one being swollen.

My perception, rightly or wrongly, is also that it's a bit asymmetrical, or semi-pear-shaped, again, because of the crown at 4, and the bulging of the case on either side of it.

My hunch/hope is that the DevilRay will wear a little better, due to the smaller bezel and turtle case shape. You'll see more of the case around the bezel, and it will seem more low-slung, even if it's actually thicker.

If anyone's had an Aevig Huldra, I think the feel would be somewhat similar, but the DR is a little larger. The Huldra has a fantastic shape.

I think it will wear a little less chunky then a Doxa Sub, which is a little narrower, a little shorter, and has a 20mm lug width, but is almost half a millimeter thicker - 42.7mm X 44.6mm X 14.4mm.

I really like the look of Doxas, but in person and on the wrist, they feel a bit blocky to me (and I imagine the Certina DS-3 would feel even more so), so I wanted to stretch and flatten out those case dimensions.

Lastly, in my observation, it seems to me that the eye can play tricks on the brain, and make things seem larger/smaller or more or less comfortable than they actually are because of how they look.

Two good (and frustrating) examples for me are the Acionna and the Orthos. Both watches are very comfortable and (relatively) sleek on the wrist, but suffer from appearing either blocky (Acionna) or slab-sided (Orthos).

I went out of my way to shape the sides of the case the way they are, in the hopes the watch will not just BE comfortable, but also LOOK comfortable.

Be sure to consult with your physician before beginning a Tapatalk regimen.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> The only thing that gets me out of the shower is the turtle. I am on the fence with that but the rest is foxah and you can call me Shirley instead of Suzy.












Be sure to consult with your physician before beginning a Tapatalk regimen.


----------



## Guzmannosaurus (Apr 1, 2015)

docvail said:


> Sorry, but no.
> 
> I've already got 8 different versions with date/no-date options, I'm not going to make it 16, just to do DLC, when it's such a low-demand thing. We did DLC with the Phantom, and the stainless versions sold much better.


I know it's low demanding and I suppose that's why I do ask - nobody really wears a black watch and so in a sea of stainless steal it's nice to have something different IMO. Thanks doc


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Yep the sizing on those new ones look like it should be just right for me. Not normally a colorful guy however I am digging the colors on these. Can't wait to see the protos.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guzmannosaurus said:


> I know it's low demanding and I suppose that's why I do ask - nobody really wears a black watch and so in a sea of stainless steal it's nice to have something different IMO. Thanks doc


We still have DLC-cased Phantoms available.

Just sayin'...


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

hiking the AT with my son



http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a508/glenroiland/20170611_124200 1_zpszwlc3qjy.jpg


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Seems like the DR thread is getting a lot of positive hype. Any idea what preorders might look like? Is this Ticketmaster-level frantic refresh every second on 3 devices simultaneously preorder, or they'll be enough for everyone for a few days, watching Netflix via 28.8 modem-level, or somewhere reasonable in between?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Disneydave said:


> Seems like the DR thread is getting a lot of positive hype. Any idea what preorders might look like? Is this Ticketmaster-level frantic refresh every second on 3 devices simultaneously preorder, or they'll be enough for everyone for a few days, watching Netflix via 28.8 modem-level, or somewhere reasonable in between?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Considering we just revealed them, it's a bit soon for me to tell.

If I had to guess, I'd say it would be less frantic than the Phantom and Subs pre-orders, which both had "issues", although for different reasons.

I think we figured all those issues out by the time we did the Tropics pre-orders. I don't remember any complaints from anyone saying they couldn't get through checkout (aside from those attributable to the usual reasons, nothing to do with pre-order rush).

That said, there's always the risk of being the 51st (or 101st) person to try to order one of the first 50 (or 100) pieces at the lowest price. There's really no downside to getting your order in earlier, rather than later.

I can't tell you how much I enjoy reading sob-story emails from people who waited 6 months, and are now beating themselves up that they didn't pre-order when they had ample opportunity.

I'm not sure why they think it's a good idea to explain they didn't think much of the design when they first saw it, but all the wrist shots they're seeing have changed their mind, as if that's somehow a compliment.

It's particularly eyebrow-raising to see those messages claiming poverty from people who post pics of a new arrival every week.

I don't need to know you were in traffic school the day we started pre-orders.

No, they don't get a discount, no matter how sob-inducing their story is. Their story usually ends up getting passed around to my friends, as a cautionary "This is Jack. He's a shameless/shiftless nitwit. Don't be like Jack" sort of tale.

EDIT/PS - it really is amazing I don't have more friends...


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Considering we just revealed them, it's a bit soon for me to tell.
> 
> If I had to guess, I'd say it would be less frantic than the Phantom and Subs pre-orders, which both had "issues", although for different reasons.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I'm gonna be there ordering on day 1 - just wasn't sure if I needed to be there within hour 1 or minute 1. =) I'll play it safe and set a notification once the date/time is decided. Now to decide blue plus either black or white...

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

Set am alarm. Buy as soon as they go on sale. If you know you are gonna buy, then buy!


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

I trust everything with the rays will be great, what im wondering is if there will ever be a book compiling all those great emails released? Should i email about it?


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

R.A.D. said:


> I trust everything with the rays will be great, what im wondering is if there will ever be a book compiling all those great emails released? Should i email about it?


Email it? Compile it!

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I've gotten questions about the color ring on the dial of the Devil Ray. Apparently some people believe it should be on the bezel, as some sort of timing mechanism, like for oxygen supply, or something.

It shouldn't be, necessarily, because it's not.

It's basically a crude/backup depth meter, based on the depths at which colors disappear:

RED - 5m
ORANGE - 20m
YELLOW - 50m
TURQUOISE - ~200m

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_vision#Color_vision


----------



## Uberyk (Nov 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> I've gotten questions about the color ring on the dial of the Devil Ray. Apparently some people believe it should be on the bezel, as some sort of timing mechanism, like for oxygen supply, or something.
> 
> It shouldn't be, necessarily, because it's not.
> 
> ...


now hold on a second, does that mean my blue orthos commander would be illegible past the 200m mark? you sold it as a 300m capable dive watch, I demand a refund.

BTW, whoever you're using as a crown/tube supplier is awesome. I don't keep my watches on a winder so I have to reset the time pretty frequently. The NTH and Commander have the smoothest threads hands down out of the watches I own. Kudos.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Azores on the cork









Tapatalked using my GS7Edge


----------



## phlabrooy (Dec 25, 2011)

These DevilRays are really looking great, Doc !

At first glance, I was liking everything about them except the saw tooth bezel design ... somehow it didn't fit. However, the more I look at these now, the more it is growing on me.

What I really do love about them, is the amount of '70s design elements in them ... that's not something that's easy to come across out there these days !

The Orange for example, really reminds me of the colours and layout of the Tissot Sideral that my brother wore during the '70s ... colourful and very striking ...










(Borrowed from the Net)









Waiting to see real life protos of these babies !

Regards,


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Azores on the cork
> 
> 
> 
> ...












Be sure to consult with your physician before beginning a Tapatalk regimen.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

The Lew and Huey Acionna doesn't get enough love, methinks. As good as Doc's more recent offerings are turning out, this watch still holds its own. Notched RIOS strap is from Panatime.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Trango (Mar 1, 2014)

Has anyone heard if the current round of Sub preorders are on still on schedule for mid-July delivery?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Trango said:


> Has anyone heard if the current round of Sub preorders are on still on schedule for mid-July delivery?


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Doc, do you anticipate that those of us that ordered a Ghost Rider would have our points in time for the Devil Ray pre-order?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Mmmmmm..... pooooiiiintssssss...... 

The devil ray just got better :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

azsuprasm said:


> Doc, do you anticipate that those of us that ordered a Ghost Rider would have our points in time for the Devil Ray pre-order?


I try not to anticipate anything, and I find I'm much happier that way.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

That profile tho...


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

docvail said:


> I try not to anticipate anything, and I find I'm much happier that way.


...and you say you don't have many friends. At least you're happier with the lack of anticipation and all that.









I'll rephrase my question as to possibly (but not likely) lessen the parsing the previous one endured:

*Will* the points from a Ghost Rider sale post to our accounts in time for the Devil Ray pre-order?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

azsuprasm said:


> *Will* the points from a Ghost Rider sale post to our accounts in time for the Devil Ray pre-order?


I love when people ask me to predict the future.

The GR _target_ delivery date (listed on the product page of the website) is before the DR _target_ pre-order start date (mentioned in the blog post about it).

But seriously/honestly, I have no idea, and I appreciate people not breaking my ball$ over future events over which I have little to no control, or $25 in rewards points, which is the most the difference could be with the Phantom's $500 price.

They're loyalty rewards points, not farm-fresh eggs. They don't expire. If you don't get to use them on this one, you'll get to use them on the next one. We're talking about a $25 difference on a $700 watch that will start pre-orders at $450.

It's a bargain at $700. It's a steal at $450. Getting pressed about it makes me want to raise the price $25 just to compensate for the multitudes of people who plan to take $25 off with coupon codes, especially the ones who get their pants in a knot because the pre-order-to-delivery cycles overlap.

I'm running a business. I have to overlap the cycles sometimes. I can't speed up production or delay certain start dates. Cut me some slack. It's $25 for crying out loud.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

If you're getting grief over $25, can you imagine what you'd get for $50 or $75 off.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> I love when people ask me to predict the future.
> 
> The GR _target_ delivery date (listed on the product page of the website) is before the DR _target_ pre-order start date (mentioned in the blog post about it).
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

As much as I try not to look into whatever people are saying about my watches online, sometimes someone will bring something to my attention, and it becomes one of those "can't be unseen" things.

I'm aware some people are confused by, or questioning of the depth meter on the DevilRay's dial, and comparing it to how other companies have done something similar, in some cases saying that ours is "wrong".

For whatever it's worth, I'd think at some point, people will realize I do my homework, and very often, I'm not wrong, but the others may be.

Here's a link to the wiki regarding underwater vision - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_vision.

As far as reliable references go, I sometimes question the value of a Wiki entry, since they can be edited by whomever, but in the absence of evidence that a Wiki is wrong, and short of going to the library to check out a book on the subject, then scanning and posting relevant passages here, a Wiki entry will have to do.

Here's what that Wiki says about color vision at depth:









Exactly as I've said in the edits I made to my blog post about it, and elsewhere, we used the four colors we did to represent approximate depths of 5m, 20m, 50m, and 200m.

The choices of which colors to use, or exclude, were based on a number of factors:

1. We liked two of those colors, the orange and the turquoise, as colors for the main dial, so they were natural choices to include on the depth meter.

2. The pattern of 5-20-50-200 is easy to remember.

3. As far as I've seen, there's no definitive "right" way to do a color-based depth meter, and so there's no "technical" requirement to include any other colors. We took some artistic license to do it our way.

4. Even if there is some definitive "rule", like an ISO - screw it, this is a business, and we often make design decisions that try to strike the balance between what's functional and what's aesthetically pleasing, and I wouldn't want two more colors added to the dial, on top of the ones we've got already. I like what we have, as it is.

Further, I have zero interest in hair-splitting arguments about precisely which hue of "blue", "red", "orange" or "yellow" we used.

The spectrum contains an infinite number of micro-differences, and as you can see from the color-chart in the pic below, the actual depth at which colors disappear varies with location and the clarity of the water.

I think we did a decent enough, if not outstanding job of nailing the right shade of each of the four colors to correspond with the depth at which they'd disappear in the open ocean.









Notwithstanding that, instead of putting a number for the depth over each color, the way some other brands have, we used that space to create a numbered minute/seconds track, which is typically going to be more useful information, and is 100% unchanging (there are always 60 seconds in a minute, and 60 minutes in an hour, but the colors will disappear at varying depths, depending on location and water clarity).

The idea is that even though the colors and depths are set up to be easy to remember (5-20-50-200), by NOT putting specific depth numbers on there, the meter is functional in any environment, assuming the diver knows what environment they're in, and adjusts accordingly.

If someone doesn't LIKE the depth meter, so be it. But that doesn't make it "wrong", and in no way is it either redundant, or non-functional, as designed. We wanted to make the best all-around diver we could, with the best blend of original design, high functionality, aesthetic appeal, and ergonomic comfort.

I'd argue that we made good use of that space, and maximized functionality while still achieving something that's aesthetically pleasing. Sorry if you don't agree. No one's forcing you to buy the watch, thankfully.

I'm also aware people are confused by "X1" lume.

Superluminova is a trademarked product name, for a product made by Tritec, of Switzerland. X1 Superluminova is also made by Tritec, and is their "new and improved" lume.

X1 C5 is exactly like regular C5, which is the pale minty green color, except it's the new X1 variety, so it glows brighter and lasts longer.

GL White is a new color, exclusively for the X1 range. Don't ask me what "GL" means. I don't know. But I do know what "white" means. It means it's "white".

Lastly, I noticed after posting to the blog that the images of the Orange and Turquoise versions had not been completely updated to the current version. The markings on the bezel were wrong (too thin). The blog has since been updated with the most recent revisions, but here are the up-to-date images of those two:















And for the God-knows-how-many'th time, NO, the designs are NOT subject to be changed, no matter how many complaints people post publicly, or email to me privately. Save your energy, and direct it elsewhere. I'm immune to all appeals.

The ONLY changes that will be made (if any are) will be dictated by the necessities of manufacturing, or dictated by me, as the guy whose name gets attached to the product. I will of course make everyone aware of them as soon as they are certain, and BEFORE anyone is asked to fork over one thin cent for pre-order.

The only pending changes at this point are a few very subtle ones to the case, in order to get it closer to my original drawings and vision. I'm not going to elaborate or discuss them any further yet, though, because they are still "PENDING". I want to see what the factory does with it since we discussed it, before updating anyone about it. I only mention them because they may happen, and I don't want to have to respond to snarky comments about how I said there would be no changes.

The BRACELET will not change. It'll be what you see, not a BOR. Deal with it.

The CLASP will not change. It'll be the same expansion-style clasp we used on the Tropics, but this time I asked the factory not to drill the micro-adjustment holes, so there won't be any confusion caused by them being present. It's an EXPANSION clasp. You don't need micro-adjustments. If you've got OCD about it, see a doctor, and ask for some meds.

The LUME COLORS will not be changed. I'm not open to considering anyone else's aesthetic vision about which lume color we should use.

The DIAL COLORS will not be changed, though it helps if you realize that these images are DRAWINGS, not PHOTOS, produced using a COMPUTER, and you are viewing them on a MONITOR, which could be a POS. Please don't pester me with endless questions trying to nail down the precise shade of blue or orange. You'll see real-life pics soon enough.

NO MATTER WHAT, I guarantee the watch will be awesome, better than anyone is expecting, easily worth more than what I'm asking, everyone who doubts me will ultimately be proven wrong, and very likely to regret not getting in on the pre-orders, as soon as they see everyone else posting wrist shots when we make delivery in the spring.

Pre-orders can be canceled. Delivered (and unworn) watches can be returned. Don't get yourself wrapped around the axle thinking too hard. Just get the money ready.

And oh, speaking of which, pre-orders *START* at $450. I haven't yet decided how many we'll make available at that price, but it could be fewer than how many people think they'll get one at that price, so I'd advise everyone to have a little extra set aside, and set their alarms that day (and NO, I haven't set the date and time yet, but when I do, trust me, if you're still on the planet, you'll hear about it, so you don't need to ask me every other week).

If you like it at $450, you should still like it at $475, or $500. It's worth more than the full retail of $700, just like most, if not all of the other watches we've produced have punched above their price. Complaining about it costing you $25 more than the guy in front of you is lame.

Haters, critics, the tsk-tsk'ers and the doubters can bite me. I'm so over dealing with all the noise it's not even funny. If you don't like what I sell or the way I run my business, no one's forcing you to buy from me. Grow. Up.

I'm out. Peace. Enjoy your weekend.


----------



## Uberyk (Nov 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> I'm also aware people are confused by "X1" lume.
> 
> Superluminova is a trademarked product name, for a product made by Tritec, of Switzerland. X1 Superluminova is also made by Tritec, and is their "new and improved" lume.
> 
> ...


So how minty is that minty green color? 
Are we talking like Sensodyne original minty? 
More blueish like the one strip in Aquafresh?
Perhaps something darker like the Ghostbusters Slimer toothpaste?
These are the questions that we need answers to Doc.


----------



## tissotguy (Oct 31, 2014)

A bit of a throwback Friday in the midst of the new and upcoming doc's watches...regardless what you put in...it looks gooooodddddd...:-!











































Tough to choose the favorite combo :think:
Happy Friday and cheers everyone!


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

I find it funny when people debate/complain/moan about actual diving usability. You could make, and sell, 10,000 of these ....ers. How many will go deeper than 5m? Maybe two of em? Five? And then probably not even by the people who ..... and moan in the first place!

Keep on keeping doc!

Personally I love the twelve hour bezel, and the fact it doesn't have a 12 o clock denominator. Which means I can always have it at UK time (either 11 or 13 hours behind me) and the bezel will be useful and not look 'just off where is should be'.

PS, not going down the BOR route was a GOOD move!


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

tissotguy said:


> A bit of a throwback Friday in the midst of the new and upcoming doc's watches...regardless what you put in...it looks gooooodddddd...:-!
> 
> View attachment 12150906


Hell yeah! That looks killer! What strap is that please?


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

Uberyk said:


> So how minty is that minty green color?
> Are we talking like Sensodyne original minty?
> More blueish like the one strip in Aquafresh?
> Perhaps something darker like the Ghostbusters Slimer toothpaste?
> These are the questions that we need answers to Doc.


I second that, also as a SUGGESTION you could make, as a counterpart to the devil ray, a "good ray" edition, i mean good and people friendly where everything will be decided by public vote through facebook, email, twit and text messages, i mean how hard can that be?

Btw the updated renders really look better.


----------



## tissotguy (Oct 31, 2014)

Keefy said:


> Hell yeah! That looks killer! What strap is that please?


Thank you. It's from Panatime - sand distressed vintage.
Cheers.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Guys, stop pissing in Doc's cornflakes. I think he needs a group hug. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

docvail said:


> As much as I try not to look into whatever people are saying about my watches online, sometimes someone will bring something to my attention, and it becomes one of those "can't be unseen" things.
> 
> I'm aware some people are confused by, or questioning of the depth meter on the DevilRay's dial, and comparing it to how other companies have done something similar, in some cases saying that ours is "wrong".
> 
> ...


Reminds me of a joke I heard before,

Once I thought I was wrong, then I realized, I was wrong.


----------



## gogmeister (Apr 4, 2013)

Doc, is shipping from a UK warehouse that you mentioned not long ago (having to do with a clearance sale) going to be an option for the Devil Ray too? it would really suit us Europeans.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gogmeister said:


> Doc, is shipping from a UK warehouse that you mentioned not long ago (having to do with a clearance sale) going to be an option for the Devil Ray too? it would really suit us Europeans.


No, and trust me, it wouldn't.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Long story, but since you asked...
> 
> *1. Euros need to brush up on their logic and math skills. Not looking to offend anyone, but I don't know how many times I can do this...
> 
> ...


^^^For those who need a refresher.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Did you know that repetition causes mental stress?

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## gogmeister (Apr 4, 2013)

All clear...I missed the original post above.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Having been thro' the purchase process recently, just stay on the janistrading webpage and let the 'plane take the strain. It just makes sense.

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

Cloudy sunday today perfect to stay home with the commander and play some irish tunes


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Sunny here, and wearing the Scorpène.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

It doesn't get old not a sub guy and his is THE sub for me.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Hey, the DevilRay looks damn interesting... I'm just not sure if it's for "me" or not. That does NOT translate into any griping or complaining about Doc or the design. Not every design is for everyone... this might or might not be for me... I don't know. I did say that the Orient might be a cheap way to get a feel of whether the overall concept works for ME.

Great job, Doc. No gripes here at all!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Agreed fearless but I didn't know I needed a compressor until I saw the Azores


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

I cant wait for the devilray. I have been trying to find a Doc product that works for me timing and design wise and this one seems like a winner. I am a big fan of 12 hour bezels and that case profile is very nice. The color is an added bonus for me because I have enough black divers. I just need to see the prototype of the dial colors so I can pick one. and stay away from here so I dont drive myself crazy looking at renders and waiting.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

macosie said:


> Did you know that repetition causes mental stress?
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


It might...
But it's also the root of all pedagogy. No learning without repetition (which might be the reason of the stress... Humans tends to not like new things as an evolutionary safety mechanism).

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Repetition is the mother of learning.

Also, this isn't the strangest thing I've ever done, but it's up there...






First 00:06:25 is all talking food in the kitchen with Chef Bardre. Watch talk starts shortly thereafter.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> First 00:06:25 is all talking food in the kitchen with Chef Bardre. Watch talk starts shortly thereafter.


Gotta admit, I didn't really watch the first 06:25... What watches were the Chef and your interviewer wearing? It sounded like you gave Chef one of yours...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fearlessleader said:


> Gotta admit, I didn't really watch the first 06:25... What watches were the Chef and your interviewer wearing? It sounded like you gave Chef one of yours...


Ty had on a Breitling "Blackbird" chrono. Fairly small, and subtle, for a Breitling.










Chef Bardre wasn't wearing a watch, but he got to wear mine while cooking, a one-of-a-kind modified Cerberus. There's a close up and description around the 5 minute mark.

I got it back after we wrapped on video.


----------



## backpacker416 (Jul 18, 2011)

tissotguy said:


> A bit of a throwback Friday in the midst of the new and upcoming doc's watches...regardless what you put in...it looks gooooodddddd...:-!
> 
> View attachment 12150866
> View attachment 12150890
> ...


Beautiful watch!!!


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

So based on this video, Doc is saying we are all his dirty watch mercenary slaves, used to rise him up in life, and give a rebirth to his career. I do know he can spread some toasted almonds with the best of them though!

In all seriousness though, good video, agree on smartwatches. They are planned obsolescence in in physical form, much like the cell phone. Too bad we can't live without that phone in modern society.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

I liked the show. Burger made me hungry, and I liked what Chris had to say, though I would have liked to see a newer model than the Cerberus. 

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Pakz said:


> It might...
> But it's also the root of all pedagogy. No learning without repetition (which might be the reason of the stress... Humans tends to not like new things as an evolutionary safety mechanism).
> 
> Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


True... But having to repeatedly listen to complaints about tax, and seeing the explaination... causes mental stress (physical stress to as I have to scroll though pages of full text quotes). 
Many people won't learn until they actually experience something first hand, no matter how many times it is repeatedly explained to them. 
And up til then, repetition causes mental stress. 

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

So, why are you his "boy" and the chef is his "man"? 

What about the women's watch? 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This is a PSA.

If you're on Facebook, and you like looking for great deals on BNIB watches, you NEED to join the WatchGang Exchange group.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/WatchGang/

Trust me.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> This is a PSA.
> 
> If you're on Facebook, and you like looking for great deals on BNIB watches, you NEED to join the WatchGang Exchange group.
> 
> ...


I applied but they have not accepted yet. Do you have any contacts to help spur the process along?


----------



## Peteworrall (Sep 19, 2012)

docvail said:


> As much as I try not to look into whatever people are saying about my watches online, sometimes someone will bring something to my attention, and it becomes one of those "can't be unseen" things.
> 
> [text removed for brevity]
> 
> ...


Good on ya Doc. It's your business. It's the easiest thing in the world to say what should be done when you're mentally spending somebody else's money, but when it's your own money at stake and your own vision for your own business, you have got to do it your way. The watch looks fantastic and the specs are great. You'll have no trouble shifting them, I'm sure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> I applied but they have not accepted yet. Do you have any contacts to help spur the process along?


I wanted to be a doctor, but I didn't have the PATIENCE.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteworrall said:


> Good on ya Doc. It's your business. It's the easiest thing in the world to say what should be done when you're mentally spending somebody else's money, but when it's your own money at stake and your own vision for your own business, you have got to do it your way. The watch looks fantastic and the specs are great. You'll have no trouble shifting them, I'm sure.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Nobody brevities me and gets away with it!


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> This is a PSA.
> 
> If you're on Facebook, and you like looking for great deals on BNIB watches, you NEED to join the WatchGang Exchange group.
> 
> ...


The 91 /mo level got Azores and Antilles? Pretty sweet. I think I also saw an Oberon over there.

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> The 91 /mo level got Azores and Antilles? Pretty sweet. I think I also saw an Oberon over there.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


Uhm, no.

They started a "platinum" subscription in May, for $299 (which is still pretty sweet). From what I gather, they didn't have enough watches to fulfill demand for all the members who wanted in on that deal, so they pulled it from their site sometime in the last week, and wait-listed everyone who didn't get in.

Their inability to meet demand worked out quite favorably for me.

Apparently last month's platinum partners (the companies providing the watches) were Deep Blue, West End Watch Company, and Iron Bridge/Out of Order (OOO).

This month, along with NTH, it was Gruppo Gamma, Lum-Tec, I think maybe some more OOO's, and "Carrero", a brand I've never heard of before. I can't speak to the OOO's or the Carrero's, but the NTH's, GG's, and LT's were legit $600-$750 watches. Their business model is "complex", to say the least.

I've been monitoring the activity there a little while, since Watch Gang contacted me about doing a deal late last month.

Without wanting to generalize, nor imply anything one way or the other, my impression is that most of the members are not as "hardcore WIS" as the people here. What's popular among the members there seems similar to what's popular among the noobs right before they join WUS.

Which is why I suggest anyone reading this join the Watch Gang Exchange group on Facebook, like, yesterday. The opportunities to pick up an NTH, Gruppo Gamma and/or a Lum-Tec for stupid-low prices are seemingly endless.

If you're low on cash, but you've got some old pre-WIS or non-WIS-approved stuff you're looking to horse-trade away, you may do even better. It almost seems like some sort of strange barter economy, where trading is preferable to getting actual money.

Going back to their subscription levels - it seems yesterday or the day before, they announced a new "Centrum" subscription, for $1,000/month, limited to the first 100 people to sign up. It apparently sold out near-instantly, so fast that people were still asking questions about it, then complaining about how quickly they sold out. One guy on there is offering anyone $1800 to give up their spot to him.

I think the Centrum level watches are supposed to be worth at least $2000, actual sales price, but of course, no one has any idea what they'll get in advance, so...I guess the 100 feel lucky.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Uhm, no.
> 
> They started a "platinum" subscription in May, for $299 (which is still pretty sweet). From what I gather, they didn't have enough watches to fulfill demand for all the members who wanted in on that deal, so they pulled it from their site sometime in the last week, and wait-listed everyone who didn't get in.
> 
> ...


Thanks for explaining. I've lurked there for ages, but missed the different level announcements. You summed it up very well, although people there flip for retail / near retail as well. There's definitely a trade heavy bias that stems from not everyone getting the same watch each month, so they barter around until they get one they like.

It's an odd mix of quartz, movado, and now lumtec/ nth.

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

I suspected there was a reason you were asking all those feeler questions about watchgang in the groups last week Doc. I will throw an application at them, see if they add me on. I think the gimmick itself is not for me, I would have to go in for platinum to get a watch I would actually wear. At that price point.... I would rather save and just buy what I want. Your watches, Gruppo, and Lum Tec being in this month is a huge step in the right direction though. Those are some solid brands.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> I suspected there was a reason you were asking all those feeler questions about watchgang in the groups last week Doc. I will throw an application at them, see if they add me on. I think the gimmick itself is not for me, I would have to go in for platinum to get a watch I would actually wear. At that price point.... I would rather save and just buy what I want. Your watches, Gruppo, and Lum Tec being in this month is a huge step in the right direction though. Those are some solid brands.


I'd already made the deal with them when that discussion took place. I was interested to get people's take, especially from people who might have more WIS-like tendencies.

I also did some digging here on WUS, where the majority opinion seems to be that it's all a scam, or a stupid idea, or whatever. But that's about what I expected the majority opinion to be. Whatever else WIS may be, they tend to be highly skeptical.

Regardless, I stand by my comments (if I remember what I said). Logically, Watch Gang can't be too quickly dismissed as a scam or a stupid idea. If they were sending out watches that weren't worth what they say they are, people would quickly find out, cancel their subscriptions, and WG would be out of business.

That said, I'm interested to see what they do with the platinum level subscription, and if they're able to get more micros on board. My unified theory of this industry is that just about everything "name-brand" selling for $300 and less (what I consider the "mass market") and everything "name-brand" that's $1000 and over ("entry-level luxury") has enough markup/margin for bricks-and-mortar distribution, but most of the "mid market" stuff is sold online, mostly at thinner margins (read: better value), especially micro-brands.

So I don't know if WG will be able to keep up with demand, if they want to supply legit $500-$750 mystery watches for a $299 subscription cost. The numbers don't seem to work as well in that range.

As for WG and WIS - I doubt many WIS will jump on the WG bandwagon. Even if WIS can set their skepticism aside, I think the risk of spending $299 and possibly getting a $500-$750 mystery watch they don't like and don't want will lead most WIS to stick to their current buying/selling/trading habits (unless they want to work the WG exchange network).

If, however, any of you can stomach the idea of rolling the dice that way, it does appear that there's a bustling trade network among the WG membership, and the majority seem to have tastes which are opposite to those of most people here, which would seem to make it the ideal place for a WIS looking to do some advantageous horse-trading. They're under-valuing the best watches, IMO.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PS on the above...

If I sound like I'm criticizing WG, or the guys in that FB group, I'm not. 

So far, I've been fairly impressed with what I've seen from the people working inside WG. All the discussion I've read about their customer support suggests it's top notch. The company is apparently growing its membership base exponentially. And all things considered, the transaction I did with them had the most favorable terms I've ever been offered by any entity that's ever contacted me to inquire about selling my watches.

As for the WG Exchange FB group (the WG subscribers looking to trade), it's sort of like the bizarro-world version of WUS. Everything there is the opposite of what it is here. But I've actually found it a bit refreshing as a change of pace. 

I haven't spotted any trolling, at least nothing anywhere near as obnoxious as some of the trolls I've encountered here. They all seem to get along pretty well, and are supportive/helpful towards each other. The vibe is overwhelmingly positive. Anyone who goes negative is likely to get mocked.

If the typical WIS on WUS is a bit OCD-ish, with a penchant for making lengthy lists of "must-haves" and "deal-killers" as part of a 6-month process to decide on which watch to buy, those guys could not be any further to the other end of the spectrum. It's not uncommon to see one post, "Looking to buy a watch, up to $X. What have you got?"

That's it! Just "watch", and "$X"! That blows my mind. It kills me that I didn't have more I could offer them.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Good to hear from someone on the supply side doc! I think you took most scepticism away. But you're right on the WIS perspective, I'm not going to pay 300 to get something I probably won't like, even if it's actual value.

About that FB group, you say it like anyone that wants to trade watches can join regardless of being WG member, which seems a bit odd. Or am I interpreting wrong?

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> Good to hear from someone on the supply side doc! I think you took most scepticism away. But you're right on the WIS perspective, I'm not going to pay 300 to get something I probably won't like, even if it's actual value.


Actually, that's not the deal. No one would spend $300 to get a $300 watch without knowing what it was.

The whole thing only works because they guarantee the watch you get will be worth at least $500.

"Worth" is obviously subjective, but you bet your a$$ the NTH Subs/Tropics, the Gruppo Gamma Bronze Vanguards, and the Lum-Tec 300m's are all worth more than $500. None of them is worth a penny less than $600, in my PROFESSIONAL opinion (speaking as someone very familiar with what all those watches likely cost to produce, as well as their relative quality, fit and finish, etc).

So, again, if you can stand to roll the dice, it's a good deal, for sure (assuming you get that sort of watch, regardless of whether or not you actually like or want it - as long as the value is right, which it seems to be, mostly, from what I've seen).

Worst case scenario, you trade, sell, or cancel your subscription, and you're only out $300. Give the watch you didn't want to the nephew you don't like for his birthday. That's what I'd do.



Wimads said:


> About that FB group, you say it like anyone that wants to trade watches can join regardless of being WG member, which seems a bit odd. Or am I interpreting wrong?
> 
> Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


Yes, anyone can join their FB group, and buy/sell/trade.

Like I said, in my observation, they prefer to trade, primarily with other members, making 1:1 swaps with people at their own subscription levels. It makes sense, since it relieves them from having to figure out fair market value for any of the watches.

But not everyone is always able to find the right trade, or sometimes they perceive something is in higher demand, so they sell for cash instead, and if you're selling, you want as many people seeing that listing as possible, no?


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> This is a PSA.
> 
> If you're on Facebook, and you like looking for great deals on BNIB watches, you NEED to join the WatchGang Exchange group.
> 
> ...


Oh, I trust you... I don't trust FB, sadly... Dang!!!!


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

It's been too many pages with not enough pictures. So...









Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## borchard929 (Feb 15, 2016)

I just got my first WG Black watch this month, and didn't like it (PVD coated). The SAME Day I got it I got in on a 3-way trade to send it to someone else, and we all sent off our watches that same day. 
Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Well if the platinum ever opens I may let me curiosity get the better of me and try it out. Especially if they can find a way to keep it at the quality level of watches like Janis and Gruppo. To see a micro owner who actually knows what the hell he is doing endorse it gives a real confidence boost.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I was curious so I joined the group. It is amazing some of the prices you see but I guess like Doc says They all seem to want to re-coup their subscription price. I have to read about it a little more to see what levels there are and if it is monthly or some other time frame.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Keefy said:


> I find it funny when people debate/complain/moan about actual diving usability. You could make, and sell, 10,000 of these ....ers. How many will go deeper than 5m? Maybe two of em? Five? And then probably not even by the people who ..... and moan in the first place!


That's WIS for you, I find funny to see people obsessing about the most minimal details in a diving watch, but they'll never go deeper than their local pool.

I consider myself a fairly decent diver, but the most I've reached is 40 something meters, most guys here are over thinking.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pato_Lucas said:


> That's WIS for you, I find funny to see people obsessing about the most minimal details in a diving watch, but they'll never go deeper than their local pool.
> 
> I consider myself a fairly decent diver, but the most I've reached is 40 something meters, most guys here are over thinking.


One of the problems is that we have manuals from watch companies (NOT Doc) that suggest watches stating 50m shouldn't be trusted for more than hand-washing, even though you'd sensibly be fine with an actual 3 or 5 ATM watch paddling about the pool. Hence the need for 100 or more to be sure the watch won't be ruined. Silly, I know. But that's what we have from watch companies.

The rest is aesthetics and aspirational dreaming.

Thank you. You've given me the idea for a blog post.

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

So as much as I really like the Sumo I recently purchased it is just not quite the right fit for me. Really like my turtle as well however its just not something that I gravitate towards on a regular basis. Now what watch could I get that would give me those watches with possibly smaller lug to lug, killer lume, date only (preferably at 6) and maybe a splash of color? :think:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> Well if the platinum ever opens I may let me curiosity get the better of me and try it out. Especially if they can find a way to keep it at the quality level of watches like Janis and Gruppo. To see a micro owner who actually knows what the hell he is doing endorse it gives a real confidence boost.


People need to go into it with their eyes open, that's all.

They need to understand that it's sort of like agreeing to go to a party, and knowing where it is, but not knowing what sort of booze, food, or music they'll have. All you know is it'll be a party, but they may not have your preferred fare. It could be prison hooch and fondue with a country-western soundtrack. Hope the girls are pretty (and that they have low standards).

Speaking as a supplier, I can't tell people in advance when I'd be supplying the watches for that month. I can't say what they paid me for them (favorable terms is as far as I'll go).

I won't be doing any exchanges, plus or minus $25. If someone wants to exchange a $700 Azores they got for $299 for a $725 Antilles, I want $426 plus shipping ($725-$299), not $25 plus shipping. If you want to swap 1:1, do it with the other members, don't ask me. I'm not running a lending library.

We'll manage any repairs, but all support requests and returns for repair need to be coordinated through WatchGang (and as I said, their support sounds excellent).

If you can roll a pair of $299 dice on a $500-$750 mystery watch while understanding all that, then WG could be for you. Or, you can save your money and buy exactly what you want, but less often. OR, third way, join their FB group, and do some aggressive horse-trading.

It is what it is.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



vmarks said:


> One of the problems is that we have manuals from watch companies (NOT Doc) that suggest watches stating 50m shouldn't be trusted for more than hand-washing, even though you'd sensibly be fine with an actual 3 or 5 ATM watch paddling about the pool. Hence the need for 100 or more to be sure the watch won't be ruined. Silly, I know. But that's what we have from watch companies.
> 
> The rest is aesthetics and aspirational dreaming.
> 
> ...


Something, something, it's important to wash your hands?


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Something, something, it's important to wash your hands?


"The state dept. of health reminds you to wash hands after every trip to the tapatalk. "

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

This is one of the things that is wrong with the Society. We must have everything clean. Screw sanitizers, eff soaps...We all need anti-bodies. 
Cough in my face please, 
spit in my eye. 
Just don't scrub me down without saying Hi.

MC Bobbie B OUTTIE!!!!!!!! 5000G <drops mic>



vmarks said:


> "The state dept. of health reminds you to wash hands after every trip to the tapatalk. "
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

I know I can trust my $725 Azores to be able to go diving with me, but as a recreational diver, I trust myself to take my $150 Aragon with me. I'd hate to scratch it on a wreck dive. 
I used to take a 100m rated Seiko down 30+m with never a worry, until I read I shouldn't. It was scratched up on a few dives. 


Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The whole thing only works because they guarantee the watch you get will be worth at least $500.
> 
> "Worth" is obviously subjective, but you bet your a$$ the NTH Subs/Tropics, the Gruppo Gamma Bronze Vanguards, and the Lum-Tec 300m's are all worth more than $500. None of them is worth a penny less than $600, in my PROFESSIONAL opinion (speaking as someone very familiar with what all those watches likely cost to produce, as well as their relative quality, fit and finish, etc).


So how is WG making money, then?

When I first looked into it, it seemed like they were sending out vintage and cheapo (~$10-15) watches with a chance to get something around $50. That seemed somewhat viable for them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kak1154 said:


> So how is WG making money, then?
> 
> When I first looked into it, it seemed like they were sending out vintage and cheapo (~$10-15) watches with a chance to get something around $50. That seemed somewhat viable for them.


Like I said, their business model is "complex" to say the least. My guess is they take a big picture view, play the long game, etc.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Doc, congrats on the on camera feature. What's next, Janis Trading Co the Musical? I can help with that. 
Like others, I joined the group out of curiosity. I have a few watches I want to flip and why not. Don't know yet if all get into the paying club, but it does sound like an interesting concept.

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> So as much as I really like the Sumo I recently purchased it is just not quite the right fit for me. Really like my turtle as well however its just not something that I gravitate towards on a regular basis. Now what watch could I get that would give me those watches with possibly smaller lug to lug, killer lume, date only (preferably at 6) and maybe a splash of color? :think:


When you said a splash of color, the orthos came to mind. You can't find any more beautiful watch with unique colors.
Now this is NTH thread, so here is a pic









Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

With all the discussion about depth ratings with divers, there seems to be forgotten one aspect: with divers there is this one selling argument "depth" - but if you replace "depth" with (atmospherical) pressure resistance (that's the atm) rating, there you have something else. The thing is, the gaskets and everything are tested under artificial surroundings, applying pressure evenly on the case. With showering an washing and moving inside water you'll have punctual exposure to (water) pressure ABOVE 3atm (30m) - this might not be always the case, but it may occur. So. I like the watch to have some pressure resistance. It's expressed through depth rating. It might get expressed through other formulas, units or semantics (and thus even more precisely) - but the meter/ATM rating is the standard, so we'll have to deal with it. I never dive, I seldom swim. I wash hands and I shower. Nothing wrong with 300m diving capacity. It shows commitment  

I even got 2 watches with 500m and HEV...




Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## 760274 (Jul 24, 2015)

Shifting gears - Cheers to Doc for taking the lume maniacs amongst the WIS seriously.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

vmarks said:


> One of the problems is that we have manuals from watch companies (NOT Doc) that suggest watches stating 50m shouldn't be trusted for more than hand-washing, even though you'd sensibly be fine with an actual 3 or 5 ATM watch paddling about the pool. Hence the need for 100 or more to be sure the watch won't be ruined. Silly, I know. But that's what we have from watch companies.
> 
> The rest is aesthetics and aspirational dreaming.
> 
> ...


Nice to know I'm not _completely_ useless!

Please send me a link to the blog post, looking forward to it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> With all the discussion about depth ratings with divers, there seems to be forgotten one aspect: with divers there is this one selling argument "depth" - but if you replace "depth" with (atmospherical) pressure resistance (that's the atm) rating, there you have something else. *The thing is, the gaskets and everything are tested under artificial surroundings, applying pressure evenly on the case. With showering an washing and moving inside water you'll have punctual exposure to (water) pressure ABOVE 3atm (30m) - this might not be always the case, but it may occur. *So. I like the watch to have some pressure resistance. It's expressed through depth rating. It might get expressed through other formulas, units or semantics (and thus even more precisely) - but the meter/ATM rating is the standard, so we'll have to deal with it. I never dive, I seldom swim. I wash hands and I shower. Nothing wrong with 300m diving capacity. It shows commitment
> 
> I even got 2 watches with 500m and HEV...
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


Without wanting to re-ignite an old argument, here goes...

I've yet to see any credible evidence that the pressure tests are insufficient in any way, or that incidental activity, such as showering, diving into a pool, slapping the surface with your hand while swimming, or moving around at depth causes any appreciable increase in "pressure".

I think people must have seen the "static" water tests, and assumed that's the beginning and end of the testing. It's not. Those tests take too long to do, so we don't do them. Most watchmakers, and any decent factory will have a legit pressure testing machine that can identify a seal failure in 30 seconds.

"ATM" (Atmospheres) and "BAR" (100,000 Pa, or Pascals) are just units of measure, used to measure the same thing - pressure - in this application, at depth and/or altitude. They're related in the same way that "inches" and "centimeters" are both units for measuring physical dimensions, just units from a different scale.

"Meters", "Feet" and all other measures for "depth" are not really a "better" substitute, nor would using them without the pressure units be "more" accurate. That would be "less" informative, if anything.

The ATM/BAR ratings are appropriate, and mean exactly what they say - a 30 ATM watch, assuming all the seals are in place, not corroded, the caseback is secure and the crown is screwed down, should be able to survive 30 ATM of pressure, which is the approximate pressure in place at 300m of depth.

Diving into a pool, slapping the surface while swimming, falling down while water-skiing, or showering is not going to create the extreme sorts of "forces" many people argue they do in online debates about water resistance, and those forces don't appreciably increase pressure enough to overcome the WR measures in place. They just don't.

Unless you're Aquaman, you're not swimming that fast, certainly not under water. And if your shower is going to damage your watch, your body is probably going to be bruised in the process.

The caseback seal is between the watch and your wrist. It's not making contact with the surface while you're doing laps in the pool. Neither is the seal in the crown, which is either pointed at your hand or your elbow.

The crystal would only make contact if you're wearing the watch on the inside of your wrist, or doing the backstroke. And either way, stop worrying that you're going to smash it with your Hulk-like technique. You won't.

"Dynamic pressure" (a term casually tossed around in those debates) is a real thing. It's also completely unrelated to water resistance. It has to do with fluids moving through closed systems under pressure, like hydraulics, and concerns the ability of elements within those systems to withstand the pressure created within them.

(The only reason I know this is because I made it a point to go and look it up, after getting exhausted reading all the online arguments about dynamic pressure and dive watches. Surprise! A lot of people are wrong.)

Unless you're diving inside a hydraulic pump or the Alaskan pipeline, "dynamic pressure" doesn't belong in a conversation about water resistance in dive watches.

I think it was WUS user Seppia who debunked it all in his threads over in F74, where he took pics of his 3 ATM Casio strapped on his wrist next to his diving computer, showing his actual depth, which I believe was MORE than 30m. The "don't you dare get it wet" Casio survived unscathed.

People need to not get wrapped around the axle about this stuff. Up to about 500m WR / 50 ATM, the ratings mean exactly what they say, nothing less. If anything, the watches tend to be over-engineered, and so they can probably go a bit deeper.

For anything more than 500m / 50 ATM, I generally suspect the WR ratings are largely "theoretical", since most factories don't have the ability to actually pressure test for more than 50 ATM, and even being able to test above 30 ATM is rare for a factory.

The extreme WR ratings above 500m are usually going to be based on engineering calculations which determine the dimensions for each component, necessary to achieve that WR. More WR typically means thicker crystal, caseback, case walls, and more gaskets, hence, thicker/bigger watch.

It's POSSIBLE that a factory might be able to test for more, or send them out to be tested for more, but it's sort of like testing to make sure the top speed on a Corvette is really 200mph - you're NEVER going to go that fast in one, nor are you likely to be wearing the watch while diving even as deep as 500m, and certainly not 3500, or whatever.

Blue whales typically swim at 330 FEET - or about 100m, which is 10 ATM, and will dive to a MAX depth of 1640 feet (500m / 50 ATM).

Submarines typically tool around at about 500 feet (150m / 15 ATM). A modern nuclear Sea-Wolf has an implied collapse depth of 2400 feet, or 730m.

The world record free dive is 831 feet (250m / 25 ATM). The world record for SCUBA is 1044 feet (318m).

The actual Devil Ray, the FISH, will sometimes hang around in the Neritic zone, which is 200m / 600 feet, considered DEEP water for ocean dwellers, and might range down to several thousand meters, occasionally, but rarely.






Most discussions of the actual, real-world, practical significance of WR ratings are just d1ck-measuring contests, if you understand the above. Arguments about added pressure from anything humans do above, at, or below the surface are just needless.

If anything, I suppose the argument that a higher WR watch is "tougher" makes sense, as far as it goes, since the components tend to be thicker, but I always wonder how tough a watch has to be to stand up to the rigors of whatever the typical office drone would throw at it.

Are you cage fighting or wrestling bears? Yes? Take off your watch first. No? Then nothing you do is going to require a 20mm thick wrist-brick in order to survive. If whatever you're doing is going to break your watch, it'll likely kill you in the process. Dead men don't check the time.

Just make sure your caseback is secure and the crown is screwed down (if it is a screw-down) before going in the water. You'll be fine.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Oh my, I've been docRAILed again  - I don't concur with what you say - I don't even want to argue (no chances for me in that, here!) I was talking about 3 ATM not 30 ATM. And I know it's all theoretical. But everything between 5m and 500m under water is theoretical for me. 

Sometimes I think there is something of a language Barrier for me which leads to misunderstanding. Maybe I should restrain myself (again) to snarky 5-10 word comments and pictures 




Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Oh my, I've been docRAILed again  - I don't concur with what you say - I don't even want to argue (no chances for me in that, here!) I was talking about 3 ATM not 30 ATM. And I know it's all theoretical. But everything between 5m and 500m under water is theoretical for me.
> 
> Sometimes I think there is something of a language Barrier for me which leads to misunderstanding. Maybe I should restrain myself (again) to snarky 5-10 word comments and pictures
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


No worries, my friend, and please don't take offense.

I certainly understand, and would never argue with anyone wanting at least 5 ATM or 10 ATM WR in a watch they planned to wear a lot. I tend to steer clear of anything with less, and even I know my fears about damaging a low WR watch are probably silly. My thinking is probably the same as most others' - "why risk it?"

Beyond that sort of discussion, though, most of the online debate about WR quickly veers off into the realm of the absurd, propelled by forum rumors, pseudo-science, pure speculation, and a healthy dose of bull$h!t from self-professed "experts".

As a rule of thumb, question everything you read online, even here. Anyone who can't make a coherent argument, supported by verifiable science and documented sources is probably an idiot, a troll, or some combination of both.

A trolliot? An idioll?

Somebody help me out here...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

In other news, my factory sent me pics of the Ghost Rider dials last night.

As usual, their photography is awesome.


----------



## huwp (Nov 10, 2015)

All of the stuff you say about -pressure- is quite correct, and even for the most extreme 'recreational' diver (recreational used here to mean someone who isn't being paid a wage to go diving), the ability to resist 200m of pressure is quite adequate.

(Aside: commercial saturation divers can encounter situations where 200m WR is NOT adequate, although there interestingly it is more because they spend a lot of their time under pressure in a dry chamber surrounded by gas rather than water - in that situation helium gas can seep in to the case and cause it to explode from within on ascent - hence the need for helium release valves or special seals - see the story about the creation of the first Seiko Tuna. But these guys are like 0.000001% of potential watch buyers, and frankly don't need watches since they have a whole boat full of support and supervisors to do any timing tasks for them.)

However; there are a few other things to consider when talking about water resistance other than just 'pressure'.

1. The 'slap' on entering the water really can be severe. This is to do with breaking surface tension rather than 'pressure' per se but is still a stiff test for any waterproofing. (Think about the different impacts of belly-flopping in to water rather than a neat dive.) That shock of breaking the surface tension can easily overcome the resistance of seals that can theoretically survive a much greater _pressure_ than is encountered at that point. Example, it's easy to flood an underwater camera housing that is rated to 40 or 60m or the like by exposing it to this kind of slap on entering the water. All else being equal, a watch with greater WR _should_ have a greater ability to resist this kind of slap.

2. Nothing made by man is perfect, and everything has a tolerance. For every story you can share of a 30m watch surviving a dive, you could share a converse story - I've myself flooded a (non-ISO) 200m rated watch in less than 20m, and plenty of other people will have similar stories. All else being equal, the tolerances of a watch with higher WR _should_ be tighter and further from the risk zone when used shallow.

3. ISO certification specifically is about a lot more than just ability to resist pressure - it also includes tests of the robustness of the strap fixtures to reduce the risk of losing the watch under duress, as can easily occur underwater or when pulling on heavy equipment etc. Also resistance to fogging moving from warm air in to cold water (think cold water divers driving in a heated car, then jumping in to cold water etc). All else being equal, ISO certification _should_ increase your watches chances of surviving the general tribulations associated with being around and in the water.

...But to cycle back and agree, 99.99% of watches WR is just about bragging rights.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

As long as I'm not doing the work I should be doing, I might as well update the status on some stuff...

*NTH SUBS* - in production. No updates from the factory. Still expecting them around late July. If I was a betting man, I'd bet on them coming the week I'm on vacation (first week of August - yay!).

*GHOST RIDER* - I'm told we'll get the parts in early to mid-July. I also just found out the watchmaker I had lined up to oversee assembly is moving to Texas in late July. My hope is we can get them assembled before his move, but it's quite possible we could be looking at a delay to sometime in August.

*DEVILRAY* - I think the factory is going to revise their case design to be more like my original drawings, where the bezel shroud is a little taller, the sides of the case are a little more swoopy, and the lug ends sloped under. I'm waiting on them to update their 3D file, so I can hand that off to Rusty for wizz-bang 3D renders. Prototypes were supposed to be done the end of July, but I'm now guessing that means probably the end of August, considering the revisions. Pre-order start date still TBD, but hoping to kick things off in September or October, in order to make a March/April delivery target.

*OTHER STUFF* - I've got one project I hope to reveal sometime this summer, with delivery targeted for this Fall. I don't want to say what it is, other than it's a Lew & Huey. The non-diver that was discussed is something I haven't touched in months, but I need to get back to it. I wouldn't expect to see it before the fall.

Those of you who have heard me talk about my "Ranger Yoda", friend and mentor Sergeant Mack - please say a prayer for his family. I found out the other night that he died in combat.

That's all I've got. I'm taking my family to Hibachi for dinner, and I'm late. So, peace, I'm out!


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Your Ghost rider news is not floating my boat. Fortunately I got in that WatchGang group and reading it's sales posts is entertaining as hell. Really.... want to trade your vintage Omega Constellation for a OOO do you? What's that Mint Azores for 350?


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Karkarov said:


> Your Ghost rider news is not floating my boat. Fortunately I got in that WatchGang group and reading it's sales posts is entertaining as hell. Really.... want to trade your vintage Omega Constellation for a OOO do you? What's that Mint Azores for 350?


Gah... I sent a request and haven't been accepted yet. Maybe I should have lied on the 2 question "entrance exam"


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Those of you who have heard me talk about my "Ranger Yoda", friend and mentor Sergeant Mack - please say a prayer for his family. I found out the other night that he died in combat.


I'm really sorry to hear. My condolences. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

docvail said:


> As long as I'm not doing the work I should be doing, I might as well update the status on some stuff...
> 
> *NTH SUBS* - in production. No updates from the factory. Still expecting them around late July. If I was a betting man, I'd bet on them coming the week I'm on vacation (first week of August - yay!).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update.......but when are the NTH Subs going to be ready?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> I'm really sorry to hear. My condolences.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Cheers.

Unless I'm imagining that I did this, a few weeks back, I recommended a book (or the entire Clay Winter series) by Dominic Adler. I'll renew my recommendation again. He'd like to maintain some separation between his work as an author and his status as a WIS, but hopefully he won't be too pissed at me if I reveal that he's a member of this forum, and a good dude.

Maybe it will help if I say he may be my new favorite writer. The Clay Winter series (available in paperback or for download on Amazon) centers around a group of (mostly British) mercenaries, mostly ex-Special Forces guys, running around either causing or trying to prevent havoc. The series is every bit as well-done as anything by Tom Clancy, and I think it's better than the one book I read from Lee Child (Jack Reacher creator), in terms of realism and authenticity.

Prior to reading the books recently, I already thought about Mack at least once a month. I didn't realize until years after I lost touch with him the extent of the influence he had on me.

The second book in the series included two characters, identical twin brothers, who immediately reminded me of twin brothers Mack and I knew and trained with, Carlos and Roberto Villareal ("Chuck" and "Bob", to Mack, and "the V brothers" to just about everyone else).

The twins in the book were roughneck soldiers who grew up in a London crime family. The Villareal brothers were of Mexican descent, from Brownsville, Texas, and the running gag was that they had crossed our southern border illegally. They used to make a dramatic performance out of crossing the street, as if they were swimming across the Rio Grande. It never failed to crack me and Mack up.

By the end of the third book, I was thinking about Mack, Chuck and Bob every day, and seriously missing my old Army friends, especially those guys. I was a medic. They were Ranger Instructors. I got to hang out with them. It was like being a little kid and getting to hang with your cooler, older siblings.

Better than that. Most of the battalion looked down on our entire platoon of medics, and the guys in charge of that platoon, who should have been looking out for us, treated us like dirt.

Mack and the V brothers were the first and only guys in that unit to treat me like I mattered. Other RI's saw that, started requesting me by name when medics were assigned to various duties, and teaching me to soldier. Being there became bearable, and when I was away from the a-holes in charge of my platoon, fun.

When Mack took on the task of training the V brothers and a few other guys to compete in the Army's "Best Ranger" competition, he pulled some strings to get me assigned as their full time medical coverage, which got me out of that platoon and my normal duty for six months.

Plus, Mack lived two doors down from me on base, so we drove to work together every day during that time. Our wives became friends. We'd go out to dinner as couples. He was funny as hell. It was the best 6 months of my 5+ years in service.

I hadn't seen or spoken to him since I re-enlisted and changed units in 1998, before the days of social media. Like I said, we lost touch, just like I did with all the friends I served with at the Ranger School, but I've since linked up with a half dozen of them on Facebook, and we all keep in touch now. I figured it was time for me to track Brian down, and reconnect.

But what I found instead was his obituary. He was killed by an IED in 2005. Yes, it was 12 years ago, but in my mind, he was still alive, somewhere, doing his thing, until that moment. I was sick with grief.

When I knew him, in that place, at that time, he was the closest thing I had to a big brother. Since I was an only child, and kind of a loner, that was awesome. But like I said, I didn't realize until years later, when I got out of the Army and had to adjust to civilian life, what a profound impact he had on me.

Even now, I'm just remembering Mack was the first guy to refer to me as "Doc", and made it sound like a term of endearment, instead of just calling me "Vail", the way everyone was just called by their last name. Yes, infantry guys will often call medics "Doc", generically, but that's in a platoon with just one medic, not when there's an entire platoon made up of medics, like the one I was in.

It seems like every time my inner Ranger comes out, or whenever I need some motivation, it's Mack's voice I hear in my head.

I posted about it on my Facebook page, and included a link to his obituary:

Sgt. 1st Class Brian A. Mack Obituary: The Obituary and Death Notice of Sgt. 1st Class Brian A. Mack | Legacy.com

Sgt. 1st Class Brian A. Mack

Brian Mack had put in long, hard years with the Army and could have taken a job as headquarters staff. Instead, he volunteered to be a platoon sergeant to young Army scouts.

"Most would have sat back and said, 'I've done my time,' but not Mack," said Lt. Robert Decker. "You couldn't drag him away from troops. He risked his life with us every day, being with his boys."

Mack, 36, of Phoenix, died Jan. 13 (2005) in Mosul, Iraq, when shrapnel from a roadside bomb hit him as he stood in his Stryker vehicle. He was based at Fort Lewis. He is survived by his wife, Lisa, and daughter, Ashley, 17.

Mack joined the Army at the age of 20, and soldiers recalled him as a great leader, teacher and mentor. For most of the past couple of years Mack was in charge of advanced specialty training across the 4,200-soldier 1st Brigade.

"He was the best, and he loved to train soldiers," said Carlton Dedrich, who retired last year as the brigade's command sergeant major. "He was the most passionate leader and soldier that I ever met."

Published online on January 28, 2005.

This is the guy who took me under his wing, Brian Mack:









Seen here with his troops, far right, looking harder than woodpecker lips, not long before he was killed:









To this day, I don't remember how we first linked up, nor do I know why he took an interest in me when no one else did. I do however remember every time I almost fell over laughing at something unexpected he'd say or do, and the "cut through the BS" way he had about him.

Any time I'd start b1tching about anything, he'd drop some mind-blowing bit of unconventional wisdom on me, and they all come back to me whenever I read WIS complaints about anything petty, or I need to reframe a "problem". To Mack, there were no problems, only obstacles to overcome, and the only question was how fast you could complete the objective.

The one and only time I ever saw him bothered by anything was when the Battalion commander would gather all the instructors to discuss the pass/fail target rate for Ranger students.

For reasons I never understood, the Ranger Instructors were supposed to fail ("no-go") a certain percentage of the Ranger School students, regardless of objective merit, and the percentage would change from time to time, which of course meant the RI's had to periodically change how they graded performance.

This was the swamp phase of Ranger School, which was the last of three phases. By the time students got there, they'd already been through at least 60 days of hell, assuming they got straight through. Some had to repeat phases if they no-go'd. The attrition rate is very high, not just from guys quitting, but also due to injury and illness. The entire reason I and another 40 medics were recruited to go there is because 4 guys died in training - AT THAT PHASE - in early 1995.

A lot of the RI's didn't like the mandatory fail rate, and they liked the fact that it changed, making the grading somewhat arbitrary, even less. Most did a good job of concealing it. Mack didn't. He wasn't a political animal. It didn't help that some of the instructors - all non-commissioned officers - felt that the students who were commissioned officers got preferential treatment sometimes. He'd be a grumbling sour-puss for the rest of the day after coming out of those meetings at Battalion.

He didn't like that young soldiers were getting screwed that way. He'd say there should be one objective standard, and you either met it or you didn't. He believed in the meritocracy. It made sense to me, and it must have rubbed off. I never did figure out how to hide my disgust for backdoor dealing and cronyism.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Thanks for the update.......but when are the NTH Subs going to be ready?
> 
> View attachment 12212922


Exactly when I said.


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

Sorry about your loss and friend. 

Sounded like a solid guy. 
I had no idea you were a medic.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

May he rest in peace


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

Seems he was a great man in horrible times. Thoughts go out to friends & family, incl. Doc


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

I cannot wait for new L&H. Doc, you may as well just reserve my spot now.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Most touching story I ever seen at WUS forum. Sorry, Doc, for your lost of a good friend and brother.

If my guess is right, Brian Mack will probably the coolest guy you will ever met in your life.


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

I'm sorry Chris for your loss!

Instagram . the_watchier


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

I'm sorry for your loss, Doc. 


Sent the hard way from my Commodore 64.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Very good story. Thanks for sharing. We all have those who we look up to and learn from. I'm sorry you lost yours. But as long as you apply what he taught, he will live on in you and others.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Yikes! That sucks to hear Doc.
Sorry for your loss.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I appreciate it, guys. 

It was a rough few days after I learned he'd died, but I'm good now.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, seriously, if you're on FB, you have to join the Watch Gang Exchange Group. There are sick deals over there. There's a Champagne Antilles being auctioned off, no reserve. Last bid was $260.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/WatchGang/forsaleposts/


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Doc, you are evil. 
It looks like I've just purchased a Azores mint to go with my vanilla, and I'm in on the bidding war for the Champagne Antilles. Actually, if Jason, they guy I'm bidding against is here in F71, I'll stop bidding against you. Let me know.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Santa Cruz Saturday!









Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> Doc, you are evil.
> It looks like I've just purchased a Azores mint to go with my vanilla, and I'm in on the bidding war for the Champagne Antilles. Actually, if Jason, they guy I'm bidding against is here in F71, I'll stop bidding against you. Let me know.


Jason is SteamJ.

But don't stop bidding against him. Rusty was bidding too, and I think he's pissed that Jason out-bid him, so...I dunno, I guess I find it entertaining when my friends are all engaged in a bidding war?

Really is amazing I don't have more friends...


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

The more people you encourage to bid on your watches used, the less money they have to buy new.

Just a thought ? lol


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keefy said:


> The more people you encourage to bid on your watches used, the less money they have to buy new.
> 
> Just a thought ? lol


The more people pay for one of my watches used, the more money the guy who bought it from me has to come back and buy something else from me, and the more likely he'll be to do that, I'd think.

Just a business logic.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Your watches are like potato chips, you can't stop buying them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Pop of color on the Scorpene









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: .watchexposure


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Part 3.

A sneak peak at the upcoming Devil Ray, part III... - Janis Trading Company


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Not to mention, these guys are currently driving down ghe prices of 2nd hand NTH. Good for me, yesterday I picked up a Azores for less than my pre-order. Now i can decide between mint and vanilla.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

macosie said:


> Not to mention, these guys are currently driving down ghe prices of 2nd hand NTH. Good for me, yesterday I picked up a Azores for less than my pre-order. Now i can decide between mint and vanilla.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


I have a mint incoming from a trade but would prefer the vanilla. Just putting it out there. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

This should make Doc's day:










I wasn't cheating on you, honest.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> Not to mention, these guys are currently driving down ghe prices of 2nd hand NTH. Good for me, yesterday I picked up a Azores for less than my pre-order. Now i can decide between mint and vanilla.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


FWIW, and as a general response to the WatchGang thing, as well the topic of secondary market sales in general, here goes...

1. No micro-brand owner wants their watches to be undervalued, and if we're smart, we consider what happens in the secondary market. But I can't control prices in the secondary market.

Prices are partly a function of supply-and-demand, but unfortunately, they're also driven by skill, effort, intelligence, and other attributes of the sellers. I cringe when I see someone constantly bumping their sales listing, meanwhile their pics suck, their description sucks, and they neglected to mention any sales terms, etc.

I can't get into the differences in production and sales volumes among specific micros, and how that plays a role, but in general, the brands that are touted as having high resale values tend to have a couple things in common - one, they were higher-priced to begin with, and two, they're produced in VERY low volume.

The "solution" isn't for me to charge more (you wouldn't like that, would you?), or produce in lower volumes than I am, as that would lead to higher prices to start (again, you'd say that's no bueno), and I wouldn't be able to run the business. Those brands are run part-time, in most, if not all cases.

I'm jamming as much value as I can into the product. It's up to you all to get in on pre-orders, and maximize what you get on the secondary market, if you decide to sell there.

It doesn't help when people are nice, and decide to "pass along the savings" by listing a BNIB watch that took 6 months to deliver at the pre-order price. All that niceness is costing you all (and me) real money. It kills me to read comments from people complaining about used prices, then turn around and see the same people posting watches still in the plastic for the same price they paid 6 months ago.

Just a suggestion, but maybe think about starting out at $50, or maybe just $100 off the full in-stock price. I know, I know, there will be others selling for just above the pre-order price. Not if you all stop doing that. And even if one or two people insist on doing it, once those one or two pieces sell, what's left?

What's left is your watches, at the "right" price, and even better, you all can make a little profit for the 6 month, interest-free loan you gave me (that's essentially what you're doing when you sell a pre-order at the pre-order price, not that I don't appreciate the loan).

2. I'm not saying I wouldn't work with WatchGang again. But I can't say IF I'll work with them again. That's partly up to WatchGang, the timing of things, what the future holds for their business and mine, etc.

I can say that I don't believe my deal with WatchGang has had any impact whatsoever on prices in the used market, and as such, I don't think anyone can reasonably complain to me about that.

Further, if someone is harboring some festering anger that the WatchGang subscribers got "the better deal", I'd ask that person to take a step back and consider why they're really angry.

The full price of the watch includes getting exactly what you want, right now, from me directly, and dealing with me directly on any service issues which may arise. The pre-order price included getting exactly what you wanted, but waiting 6 months, and all the rest of the terms above.

The WatchGang subscribers didn't get the watches from me, and didn't know what they were getting in advance. They rolled the dice in a way most WIS never would, and still won't. The price they paid included that inherent uncertainty and risk, and a different service level, from a business that isn't me and mine.

I guarantee that anyone in my position, approached by WatchGang with the same terms, would have done exactly as I did, without exception. It was the right business decision, for certain.

If - hypothetically - the inventory I sold to WatchGang was still with me a year from now, or two years from now, I'd be forced to sell it at a deep discount anyway, whoever bought it at those deeply discounted prices would have gotten the "best deal", and all the customers who pre-ordered from me, or paid full price, would be in a worse position, since that would truly depress the value on the secondary market, without a doubt.

I'm not "sorry", but I do hope people understand all that.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> This should make Doc's day:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not really.

It looks like I paid for two ads on the same page, which I think means I was bidding on that space against myself.

Awesome.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I think the sad (ish) thing is these guys in the Gang don't really appreciate the watches they get. Only a few of their listings have specs. They only care if it's a black or platinum issue or a Rolex. It's an odd phenomenon. 
Doc, I'm looking forward to seeing your next L&H.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Part 3.
> 
> A sneak peak at the upcoming Devil Ray, part III... - Janis Trading Company
> 
> View attachment 12240154


Great update, really hope i have watch allowed money for this when pre orders start.

Also dont get this wrong but im glad im just a customer and dont have to deal with all that messy process to get a cool watch :O


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

huwp said:


> 1. The 'slap' on entering the water really can be severe. This is to do with breaking surface tension rather than 'pressure' per se but is still a stiff test for any waterproofing. (Think about the different impacts of belly-flopping in to water rather than a neat dive.) That shock of breaking the surface tension can easily overcome the resistance of seals that can theoretically survive a much greater _pressure_ than is encountered at that point. Example, it's easy to flood an underwater camera housing that is rated to 40 or 60m or the like by exposing it to this kind of slap on entering the water. All else being equal, a watch with greater WR _should_ have a greater ability to resist this kind of slap.


As long as you're not jumping from a bridge I highly doubt that the impact on water will have a harmful effect on the seals, and as Doc said, most likely anything that would break the seals would kill you too, so the point is moot IMHO.



huwp said:


> ...But to cycle back and agree, 99.99% of watches WR is just about bragging rights.


I completely agree. I actually found this article today at Hondikee and I think it couldn't be more appropriate for this conversation:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/w...gs-really-mean-and-whether-you-can-trust-them

The most relevant part for me was this:



> Here is an Oris Diver's Sixty-Five, a watch with a 100m depth rating. Watch enthusiasts sometimes point to such a depth rating and decry it, saying that it is inadequate. While certainly for professional use one always likes to build in as much of a safety margin is possible, the fact remains that most recreational scuba diving takes you down to only about 40 meters, which is the maximum recommended for recreational diving by most training agencies. Deeper than this you start to enter the realm of technical diving, where specialized equipment and further training are necessary.
> 
> 40 meters is less than half the depth rating of a 100m dive watch, so even if it were to be built to fail at exactly its rated depth (which it almost certainly is not) you still have a very comfortable safety margin built in. This is even more true for 200 meter diver's watches. Considering how few dive watch owners will every actually dive, and how few of that number will ever do any +40 meter technical diving and you begin to see how objections to a 100m dive watch are almost entirely academic.


And by "almost entirely academic" we must understand "WIS going full autists"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Well...if Hodinkee says it, it must be true...


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

docvail said:


> Well...if Hodinkee says it, it must be true...


This is a really good one. 👏👏👏👏

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

So, why do watch companies put in those ridiculous statements saying a 100m watch is only good for swimming. Is it propaganda to make us buy more expensive 200 & 1000m watches? 
I dove for years on my SKX033 (100m) with no issues. I stopped because of those articles. I temporarily replaced it eith a $100 dollar g-shock, which my wife now uses when we dive, and now wigh a $120 Aragon, both are rated 200m. I bought the Azores to be a desk diver. I'm clumsy and put a few reasonable scratches on the Seiko, I'd be annoyed as hell if I scratched up a $700 NTH, or a $10000 Rolex. 
I just wonder why companies would say 100m, and then caution you about actually using it for rec diving or snorkeling? Makes me question the quality.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> So, why do watch companies put in those ridiculous statements saying a 100m watch is only good for swimming. Is it propaganda to make us buy more expensive 200 & 1000m watches?
> I dove for years on my SKX033 (100m) with no issues. I stopped because of those articles. I temporarily replaced it eith a $100 dollar g-shock, which my wife now uses when we dive, and now wigh a $120 Aragon, both are rated 200m. I bought the Azores to be a desk diver. I'm clumsy and put a few reasonable scratches on the Seiko, I'd be annoyed as hell if I scratched up a $700 NTH, or a $10000 Rolex.
> I just wonder why companies would say 100m, and then caution you about actually using it for rec diving or snorkeling? Makes me question the quality.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


Honestly, I think when companies put that sort of stuff in their manuals or on their websites, it's to cover their butts, and limit how often they have to deal with warranty claims for things that might actually have been caused by old seals, loose casebacks, crowns that weren't screwed down, etc.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Honestly, I think when companies put that sort of stuff in their manuals or on their websites, it's to cover their butts, and limit how often they have to deal with warranty claims for things that might actually have been caused by old seals, loose casebacks, crowns that weren't screwed down, etc.


Your opinion is clearly better than mine on this, but I believe it's a way to convey higher quality than competition, then sooner rather than later you have an immense d1ck measuring contest on who has the biggest helium release valve, sort of the "XX Jewels inside" claims of decades ago. The thing is that we as consumers LOVE to buy into this crap.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> Your opinion is clearly better than mine on this, but I believe it's a way to convey higher quality than competition, then sooner rather than later you have an immense d1ck measuring contest on who has the biggest helium release valve, sort of the "XX Jewels inside" claims of decades ago. The thing is that we as consumers LOVE to buy into this crap.


I'm not disagreeing with you, but unless I've just lost track of the discussion, I think we're talking about two separate, yet related things.

Why do manufacturers tell you not to go in the kiddie-pool with less than a 100m WR watch?

I think that's the corporate attorneys and the support team trying to cover their own a$$e$ (the company's), and their retail distributors. It's so they can avoid dealing with the guy who got water in his 100m WR watch because he forgot to screw the crown down, or the gaskets were old, or some nitwit at the factory didn't screw the caseback in all the way.

Why do we get stiffies over absurd WR?

Part of it may be because manufacturers tell us not to get anything with less than 200m WR wet. Part of it may be we have no clue about actual, real-world diving depths, and we think 500m is "not that deep", so 200m must therefore be not enough.

Part of it may be we think we're going to get run over by a car, and our left wrist will be caught under the wheel, so we'd better have a "tough" watch, and high WR is a good proxy for "tough".

Lastly, part of it may just be we're a bunch of soft, pasty-skinned office drones who'll never do anything remotely adventurous, but the idea that our watch is capable enough that we could tell time while doing it appeals to our inner savage.

Now if you'll all excuse me, I've got to go wrestle a grizzly. My wife has been acting bored lately, and I need to show her I'm still the alpha male, and she wants to bear my offspring.

EDIT/PS - pun convenient, but not intended (grizzly/bear my offspring).


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Now if you'll all excuse me, I've got to go wrestle a grizzly. My wife has been acting bored lately, and I need to show her I'm still the alpha male, and she wants to bear my offspring.


Remember to p1ss on the grizzly to assert dominance...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> Remember to p1ss on the grizzly to assert dominance...


That's not all I plan to do to him. Let's just say he's gonna need counseling.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## huwp (Nov 10, 2015)

Consumers love to have a single number or single attribute to fix on to denote 'better', because they can't/won't/don't have the time/don't have the inclination to understand that the real world is way more complex than any single number might be able to capture.

Other examples: megapixels in digital cameras; wattage in amplifiers; maximum speed in cars.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

huwp said:


> Other examples: megapixels in digital cameras; wattage in amplifiers; maximum speed in cars.


Don't forget horsepower... Oh, uh, oh...
(That's meant to sound more Home Improvement than Harry met Sally)
(Sorry, I know they are dated references, but it's hard to find macho references from current pop culture other than politics...)

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

huwp said:


> Consumers love to have a single number or single attribute to fix on to denote 'better', because they can't/won't/don't have the time/don't have the inclination to understand that the real world is way more complex than any single number might be able to capture.
> 
> Other examples: megapixels in digital cameras; wattage in amplifiers; maximum speed in cars.





macosie said:


> Don't forget horsepower... Oh, uh, oh...
> (That's meant to sound more Home Improvement than Harry met Sally)
> (Sorry, I know they are dated references, but it's hard to find macho references from current pop culture other than politics...)
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


"Swiss Made"

Don't bother reading into it. Just tuck those two words under your pillow, and wait for the watch fairy to leave a valuable timepiece.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Thread needs moar pics😋









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Yup, more pics. I just realized this thing looks like a negative Santa Cruz...


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

This is still my best picture of my Scorpène.


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Santa Cruz on vacation









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> "Swiss Made"
> 
> Don't bother reading into it. Just tuck those two words under your pillow, and wait for the watch fairy to leave a valuable timepiece.
> 
> New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


Is it an Antilles? Say it's an Antilles! (Promises to go to sleep, stays up all night thinking about Antilles)

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Oberon closeup










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

Is it August yet?


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> Part 3.
> A sneak peak at the upcoming Devil Ray, part III... - Janis Trading Company


I didn't get that email. Thanks for posting the link.

Have I missed any teases about the new L&H yet?

You know, the C300 gets more wrist time than either NTH subs or Azores...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fearlessleader said:


> I didn't get that email. Thanks for posting the link.
> 
> Have I missed any teases about the new L&H yet?
> 
> You know, the C300 gets more wrist time than either NTH subs or Azores...


There wasn't an email about part III, only part II. I may send one for part IV.

You haven't missed any teases.

I did not know.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Shockwave said:


> Is it August yet?


Nope, not even July 4th yet...






OMG. That kid is the new zombie Jonathan!






Still can't decide which one I want to be my new head of answering emails and direct messages. I may need to hold a competition.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Moar pix!

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

What's that you say Antilles? It's nearly time for the Pub to be opening? fab-u-lous!!

It's the r-send of a miz week, so me and Antilles are about to bimble down to the Pub in the village - The Cock Inn (!!) if you must know - to partake of some embrocation in the form of some brewed liquid livener - it's just got to be done....

Have a really great weekend everybody.









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Still can't decide which one I want to be my new head of answering emails and direct messages. I may need to hold a competition.


Since you love unsolicited input i vote for number 1, for example

"hello, i would like to ask when is the next l&h watch teaser please, thanks and love your watches"

reply "wouldnt YOU like to know watch nerd"

(Turns computer off crying)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



R.A.D. said:


> Since you love unsolicited input i vote for number 1, for example
> 
> "hello, i would like to ask when is the next l&h watch teaser please, thanks and love your watches"
> 
> ...


On the other hand...

"hello, i would like to ask when is the next l&h watch teaser please, thanks and love your watches"

reply "cheeseburger!"

(Blinks in baffled silence...)

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

EDIT/PS - The numbering on the depth gauge is wrong here. It should be black, not white (damn Rusty). And the date wheel looks gray because of glare, according to 3D boi Rusty...










EDIT/PS 2 - Case looks thicker here, because the case back isn't "screwed down" (again, damn Rusty).










New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


reminds me of a tie fighter from the front. looking good!


----------



## 2535.80 (Mar 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


Can't wait for this one. March can't come soon enough.


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm curious to know what is reasoning behind the different lengths of the depth markers for the red, orange, and yellow. i.e. Why does the red cover 10 minutes while the orange and yellow covers 5 each?


----------



## KJRye (Jul 28, 2014)

Tell Rusty great job on those renders!

Although, the "Perspective" mode I think is distorting/bloating a few things a little bit...

And, seriously...no one cares about the black. Show me orange! 



docvail said:


> New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Watcher said:


> reminds me of a tie fighter from the front. looking good!


What part of









did you not understand?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> I'm curious to know what is reasoning behind the different lengths of the depth markers for the red, orange, and yellow. i.e. Why does the red cover 10 minutes while the orange and yellow covers 5 each?


Why does it matter?



KJRye said:


> Tell Rusty great job on those renders!
> 
> Although, the "Perspective" mode I think is distorting/bloating a few things a little bit...
> 
> And, seriously...no one cares about the black. Show me orange!


Rusty's gotta fix a few things first. See my edits on the previous page.


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

Do we have anymore photos of the Barracuda? I'm counting the days....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Proco2020 said:


> Do we have anymore photos of the Barracuda? I'm counting the days....


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> View attachment 12287194


 .


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

Ragl said:


> What's that you say Antilles? It's nearly time for the Pub to be opening? fab-u-lous!!
> 
> It's the r-send of a miz week, so me and Antilles are about to bimble down to the Pub in the village - The Cock Inn (!!) if you must know - to partake of some embrocation in the form of some brewed liquid livener - it's just got to be done....
> 
> ...


More pictures with this charming pub in the background please.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

dmnc said:


> More pictures with this charming pub in the background please.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Have a pint on me mate

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

fine print. i'm just here for the watches and straps man



docvail said:


> What part of
> 
> View attachment 12286714
> 
> ...


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> EDIT/PS - The numbering on the depth gauge is wrong here. It should be black, not white (damn Rusty).


I've looked and looked, but can't see any numbering at all on the depth gauge. Sure, I see the ring with the different colors, and I read Doc's description of the colors / changes-by-depth, but for the life of me -- I don't see any numbering other than 05, 10, 15, 30, etc. Must just be me.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

fearlessleader said:


> I've looked and looked, but can't see any numbering at all on the depth gauge. Sure, I see the ring with the different colors, and I read Doc's description of the colors / changes-by-depth, but for the life of me -- I don't see any numbering other than 05, 10, 15, 30, etc. Must just be me.


It's there, it's just tiny, due to the angle. Looks like white spots in these renders. If you look at the older mock-ups, you'll see it. If you're looking with a phone it might be too small to see. On my desktop it's visible.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> It's there, it's just tiny, due to the angle..


Sadly, I've used this line before

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> Sadly, I've used this line before
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You just won the internets!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Part four.

A sneak peak at the upcoming NTH DevilRay (part four...) - Janis Trading Company


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

dmnc said:


> More pictures with this charming pub in the background please.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There you go dmnc, Antilles and I await the lunchtime opening of The Cock Inn, Brocton, Shropshire - except it won't be opening this lunchtime, as the whole village will be at the Annual Village Fun Day at Woodbine Cottage - just love summer in England!









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Part four.
> 
> A sneak peak at the upcoming NTH DevilRay (part four...) - Janis Trading Company
> 
> View attachment 12293106


Deeply wanting........


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> There you go dmnc, Antilles and I await the lunchtime opening of The Cock Inn, Brocton, Shropshire - except it won't be opening this lunchtime, as the whole village will be at the Annual Village Fun Day at Woodbine Cottage - just love summer in England!
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


I'm guessing the daily special is always chicken?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'm guessing the daily special is always chicken?


Yes indeed, how did you guess? They particularly specialise in rooster.....

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Yes indeed, how did you guess? They particularly specialise in rooster.....
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


Just a good guesser, I guess...

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

docvail said:


> Part four.
> 
> A sneak peak at the upcoming NTH DevilRay (part four...) - Janis Trading Company
> 
> View attachment 12293106


I originally thought I'd be sitting this one out but the new renders are really tempting.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## alpapilot (Jul 15, 2009)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I've got a question about the bezel assembly. Are there two separate inserts, one two tone insert or is it a solid piece? Thanks.

I'm really digging the orange and I'm just curious. Nothing is a deal breaker.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



alpapilot said:


> I've got a question about the bezel assembly. Are there two separate inserts, one two tone insert or is it a solid piece? Thanks.
> 
> I'm really digging the orange and I'm just curious. Nothing is a deal breaker.


The black ring is an insert. The metallic is part of the underlying assembly.


----------



## alpapilot (Jul 15, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The black ring is an insert. The metallic is part of the underlying assembly.


Excellent, thanks!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Black dial, with the crystal removed from the model, so you all can see the sunburst.


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Black dial, with the crystal removed from the *model*, so you all can see the sunburst.


Can you do that special effect to other _models_... maybe on Alessandra Ambrosio? b-)


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

BTW Doc, haven't seen much love for the turquoise dial, but you can mark me down for one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> BTW Doc, haven't seen much love for the turquoise dial, but you can mark me down for one.


I haven't kept count, but judging from the comments across multiple discussions here and on FB, it seems like all four are about evenly appreciated, but we'll see which is the favorite when pre-orders start.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Getting ready for horseback riding with the Näcken Modern Blue.










New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The black ring is an insert. The metallic is part of the underlying assembly.


The black ring, meaning the 01-12 ring, right? I'm assuming that's the one that turns since it would seem an amazing mechanical wonder to have the inner bezel (00-59) turn separately from the outer bezel.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> Getting ready for horseback riding with the Näcken Modern Blue.


Wow, I love that your horse uses a key fob!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



fearlessleader said:


> The black ring, meaning the 01-12 ring, right? I'm assuming that's the one that turns since it would seem an amazing mechanical wonder to have the inner bezel (00-59) turn separately from the outer bezel.


The entire bezel turns, both rings together, not either ring separately, nor both independently.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Doc will you be offering further discounts for multiple Devilray pre-orders? At first I thought I just wanted one, now it's two, building on three...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> Doc will you be offering further discounts for multiple Devilray pre-orders? At first I thought I just wanted one, now it's two, building on three...


Same discounts as always. Orders over $800 get free shipping. Orders over $1000 get free shipping plus an additional 5% off.

Please keep in mind everything I sell is already under-priced, even at the full, in-stock retail price. I'm working on too-thin margins as it is. Pre-order prices start at 35% off that number, before applying coupon codes, which makes it more like 40%.

So, hopefully people understand when I get a little eye-twitchy when people ask me how they can save even MORE money, and I start thinking about raising the pre-order price, and making fewer available at the lowest price tier.

Put yourself in my shoes, and imagine your boss asks you if there's a way you could work harder and get paid less. That teeth-clenching, want to stab him in the eye feeling you're getting - yeah, that's pretty much how I feel whenever anyone asks me how they can pay me less for my hard work.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> Same discounts as always. Orders over $800 get free shipping. Orders over $1000 get free shipping plus an additional 5% off.
> 
> Please keep in mind everything I sell is already under-priced, even at the full, in-stock retail price. I'm working on too-thin margins as it is. Pre-order prices start at 35% off that number, before applying coupon codes, which makes it more like 40%.
> 
> ...


I meant no disrespect, apologies.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> I meant no disrespect, apologies.


None taken, none needed. It just gets tiresome for me, people constantly asking me for discounts and whatnot. No one wants to be paid less for doing more. I'm no different.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> None taken, none needed. It just gets tiresome for me, people constantly asking me for discounts and whatnot. No one wants to be paid less for doing more. I'm no different.
> 
> New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


It's not limited to your industry, trust me...

Fine, I'll buy three just to get your paltry, lousy 5% discount (  ..... infinite smilies follow...)


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I am in the Roofing Industry, up here in Toronto it is getting real bad. Not only are we hearing about counterfeit shingles, but also an influx of foreign workers that are not paying the taxes as well as the(workplace and safety insurance) has eaten up the industry like Locusts.
We hear it is the same for a lot of other trades as well. Luckily we have a young handsome Prime Minister that will ensure his Father's legacy will continue and increase their vote tally.



Keeper of Time said:


> It's not limited to your industry, trust me...
> 
> Fine, I'll buy three just to get your paltry, lousy 5% discount (  ..... infinite smilies follow...)


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> None taken, none needed. It just gets tiresome for me, people constantly asking me for discounts and whatnot.


See, like I posted earlier, 'repetition causes mental stress.' 
(And before someone repeats that repetition is the root of pedagogy, yes, agreed, but up to the point before it becomes tedious. So, no need to further repeat that either...)
Therefore, to further reduce unnecessary stress, no need to ask for free watches to do reviews.

Now that that's out of the way, let the man focus on the devil-ray and new L&H projects. 


Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Pre-order prices start at 35% off that number, before applying coupon codes, which makes it more like 40%.


Sorry, did I miss a link for pre-order somewhere earlier in the thread, or am I misunderstanding the discussion?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Sorry, did I miss a link for pre-order somewhere earlier in the thread, or am I misunderstanding the discussion?
> 
> View attachment 12312834


You didn't miss anything. We're still waiting on prototypes. I don't foresee starting pre-orders any sooner than September.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sorry if it seems like I get cranky sometimes. People asking me about discounts is one of those "triggers" for me. I'm already overworked and underpaid for what I deliver. Asking to pay me less is highly likely to make my agent orange act up.

I get that this is the affordable sub-forum, so I expect and can understand a certain amount of value-seeking. That "found a bargain" thread makes total sense to me. Someone finds a popular Seiko for $40 less, yeah, tell all your friends about it.

But I'm not Seiko. This ain't TJ Maxx or Kohls. Yet every week, I get a half dozen messages from people breaking my stones about shipping, customs, or my prices in general. It's obnoxious, especially when I turn around and see the person who claimed poverty last week posting a wrist shot of a new arrival every week. 

I've got a loyalty rewards program in place to incentivize and reward repeat customers. I'm offering huge discounts on pre-orders, plus free shipping and additional discount for larger orders. Opinions are all but unanimous that our quality and execution punches well above our price - that's the full in-stock retail price.

If someone can't afford it, that's understandable. Not everyone can afford it. 

But understand this is a small business, mostly a one-man show, and I've got mouths to feed, too. 

Asking me for a discount, of any sort, for any reason above and beyond the usual discounts I already offer for pre-ordering, large orders, and repeat customers, isn't like asking for an additional discount at Kohls. 

Explain to me why my kids deserve less, and/or how you'll provide me your product or service at an equivalent percentage discount, and I'll consider it. Otherwise, the request is an obnoxious waste of my time, and shows how little value you actually place on what I deliver. 

Life's too short.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Sorry if it seems like I get cranky sometimes. People asking me about discounts is one of those "triggers" for me. I'm already overworked and underpaid for what I deliver. Asking to pay me less is highly likely to make my agent orange act up.
> 
> I get that this is the affordable sub-forum, so I expect and can understand a certain amount of value-seeking. That "found a bargain" thread makes total sense to me. Someone finds a popular Seiko for $40 less, yeah, tell all your friends about it.
> 
> ...


Hard to claim poverty to the man who's chosen to make watches for his life's work. I'm just glad it's marginally sustainable and we get to have these wonderful things exist.

I hope it keeps getting better for you.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> Hard to claim poverty to the man who's chosen to make watches for his life's work. I'm just glad it's marginally sustainable and we get to have these wonderful things exist.
> 
> I hope it keeps getting better for you.


Cheers, Victor.

I'm not saying my family is suffering for my art, but they do remember me earning a lot more when I was working for other people.

It's nice I can work from home, and save on gas, auto maintenance/insurance, dry cleaning, etc. I enjoy not having to listen to empty-shirts give the corporate rah-rah speech every month. I like being the captain of my own ship. But this isn't a business you go into in order to get rich.

And while working from home has its advantages, it's also a global, open-24/7 business facing the widespread (and completely unrealistic) expectation that I'll be awake and online 24/7, capable of responding in a timely way to all messages across every social media channel, and delivering stellar on-demand support, instantly (a lot of people think they can "skip the line" and reach me right now by direct messaging me on WUS, FB, IG or Twitter, but trust me, that's not how best to reach me if you want/need support from me - my first hire will likely be someone whose primary duty is to field all the emails, direct messages and public requests directed at me).

My prices will be higher as soon as a sharp advertising/marketing guru shows me how increasing my ad spent 10% will allow me to raise prices 20%, which is how much higher they should be, at a minimum. At least once a month, I'll have to field an inquiry from a potential reseller, and explain why the deal terms they're expecting won't work for my business, due to our costs vs pricing. It's difficult to bridge the gap between my direct-to-WIS-consumer focus, and the typical reseller's mass market focus, where the bang for the buck quotient is typically lower.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Chris, if you being cranky had any impact on my love of your watches I would not own 9 of them


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> Chris, if you being cranky had any impact on my love of your watches I would not own 9 of them


If we had never met in person, and/or if I didn't know you to be a thick-skinned sumb1tch...nah, I can't lie, I probably would have responded the same way regardless.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a more humorous, only semi-related note, some comments I read online make me wonder if this story about the end of Orsa doesn't offer a glimpse into my future.










New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> If we had never met in person, and/or if I didn't know you to be a thick-skinned sumb1tch...nah, I can't lie, I probably would have responded the same way regardless.


Hey, we are big craft-beer drinking boys. We can take it.

However, you can make it up to me by leaking some more details about this mythical new L&H watch!! Then all will be forgiven.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

I wish I had started in the hobby just a little earlier. I would have loved an Orsa.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> I wish I had started in the hobby just a little earlier. I would have loved an Orsa.


Maybe.

What I find semi-ironic is that as sought after as the old ones are, if someone were to make that exact watch today - a basic, printed-dial dive watch with a Miyota 8215 inside, no lume on the bezel, no exotic materials - I think most WIS would shrug and say, "meh".

Orsa had a distinctive look, which was solid, design-wise, but they weren't earth-shaking in any way, either in design or specs. I have no idea what their pricing was like, so I can't speak to their value.

Three or four years ago, that sort of 200m-300m dive watch with an 8215 inside was the benchmark for micro-brands. See the Bernhardt Shark Diver, all the Obris Morgan models of that vintage, Orsa, Olivier (the debacle which was Olivier notwithstanding - it was a dive watch with the 8215 inside), and countless others.

Now, everyone turns their nose up at the 8215, often saying things like, "I've already got a bunch of 8215's in my collection". A Seiko NH35 is the new "entry-level" movement. And people mostly expect at least a Miyota 9015, if not an STP, Sellita SW200, or ETA 2824-2.

What I'm not sure about is whether or not people's expectations regarding what they'll have to pay have kept pace with their expectations about what they'll get for their money.

It's why I think the Scurfa brand is pretty remarkable. If someone had told me that a startup micro offering a conservatively-styled, modestly-sized, $200 *quartz* diving watch would become wildly popular, I'd have thought they were nuts. It's the exact opposite of what so many people claim to want.

I'm not getting up on a soapbox, here. I just think about this stuff a lot. I watch the trends.

The purchase of Glycine by Invicta, the sale of Frederique Constant to Miyota, the shutdown of the Eterna brand (not to be confused with Eterna Movements Asia, which will continue on, at least for now) - I look at all of these within the context of the annual reports published by the FHS (Swiss Watch Federation), which show a clear trend - and it isn't good, at least not for "luxury" Swiss brands (IMO).

To me it looks like the market is pushing back against luxury-brand pricing and "lifestyle" marketing, expecting better bang for the buck. It seems like all the benchmarks have been raised, but there's a limit on how high you can raise them - the need for a business to earn a profit.

Push any business to increase their value proposition too far, they have to find a way to compensate. I think that's what we're going to start seeing, and what happened with Orsa is just an example of what can happen. Some brands will go away (like Orsa or Deaumar), some will shift focus to a different market segment (like Chris Ward), some will short-sheet the bed when it comes to service (I won't mention names, but examples aren't hard to find).

The WIS segment of the market is the most demanding, most brutal on a small business. Brands like Orsa and Deaumar should serve as cautionary tales about what can result from all the noise.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> The purchase of Glycine by Invicta, the sale of Frederique Constant to Miyota, the shutdown of the Eterna brand (not to be confused with Eterna Movements Asia, which will continue on, at least for now) - I look at all of these within the context of the annual reports published by the FHS (Swiss Watch Federation), which show a clear trend - and it isn't good, at least not for "luxury" Swiss brands (IMO).
> 
> To me it looks like the market is pushing back against luxury-brand pricing and "lifestyle" marketing, expecting better bang for the buck. It seems like all the benchmarks have been raised, but there's a limit on how high you can raise them - the need for a business to earn a profit.


An offshoot of the "pushing back against luxury-brand pricing" is how many sales there are -- and those sales prices tend to make microbrands nearly as "costly" as those "luxury brands" on sale.

Now, granted I have no way of guessing what Invicta will do (or what they HAVE done) to Glycine's previous quality level, but sales have put many Glycines not too far away from many (higher priced?) microbrands and THAT makes things tough for consumers: "Do I get a microbrand at $X or a big wellknown brand for only a little bit more -- or even less?" (e.g. a Glycine Combat 7, Titanium bracelet, Swiss movement is $300'ish on sale).


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

fearlessleader said:


> An offshoot of the "pushing back against luxury-brand pricing" is how many sales there are -- and those sales prices tend to make microbrands nearly as "costly" as those "luxury brands" on sale.
> 
> Now, granted I have no way of guessing what Invicta will do (or what they HAVE done) to Glycine's previous quality level, but sales have put many Glycines not too far away from many (higher priced?) microbrands and THAT makes things tough for consumers: "Do I get a microbrand at $X or a big wellknown brand for only a little bit more -- or even less?" (e.g. a Glycine Combat 7, Titanium bracelet, Swiss movement is $300'ish on sale).


A brand being "big and well known" does not guarantee quality. I am not at all impressed by the quality of Glycine. Both my NTHs are way way better made than any Glycine that I've handled. I am also not particularly attracted to their designs. The market spoke and Glycine is now owned by a brand hardly known for its quality. To answer your "question" - I'll buy a good microbrand any day.


----------



## Diabolic Coffee (Feb 9, 2016)

Coriolanus said:


> BTW Doc, haven't seen much love for the turquoise dial, but you can mark me down for one.


I'm in for one. That thing has looked better with every tweak and render. Count me in.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Just looked at the renders on your IG account. This case shape is so extreme, that i think it is safe to say, it is no turtle anymore, but a new entity of case shape. I really need to see a wristshot to decide for myself. But I think it's great, to see something new - shape- and concept-wise.


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

To all of my W.U.S. - W.I.S. colleagues in the U.S.A., have a great 4th of July.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> To all of my W.U.S. - W.I.S. colleagues in the U.S.A., have a great 4th of July.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


Translation: "On behalf of all Brits, we're glad to be rid of you Yanks."


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Translation: "On behalf of all Brits, we're glad to be rid of you Yanks."


LMTO!! Okay Doc, we all know that you have powers over and above us mere mortals - especially in the realms of time - but since when did you become a mind-reader?

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> LMTO!! Okay Doc, we all know that you have powers over and above us mere mortals - especially in the realms of time - but since when did you become a mind-reader?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


Pfffft! No mind reading necessary. That drunken, Portuguese, ex-pat Brit, Ric Capucho has been telling me that for the last four years.

I don't need telepathy. I've got telecapucho.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Pfffft! No mind reading necessary. That drunken, Portuguese, ex-pat Brit, Ric Capucho has been telling me that for the last four years.
> 
> I don't need telepathy. I've got telecapucho.


Brilliant!! LMTO!! Have a great day anyway Doc and if you get the chance, please ask Ric when the Empire Strikes Back......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Wicked lume.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Brilliant!! LMTO!! Have a great day anyway Doc and if you get the chance, please ask Ric when the Empire Strikes Back......
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


Ric wouldn't know. He's too busy crippling unwary Swiss commuters and throwing his garbage down the Matterhorn, whenever he's not fishtailing all over the Alps in an absurdly over-compensating-for-something German-made convertible.

I don't want to tell tales out of school, but there are two ways to say the brand name - both make you sound like you've got too much money and are half in the bag, which, appropriately enough, is PRECISELY how I always picture Ric.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Ric wouldn't know. He's too busy crippling unwary Swiss commuters and throwing his garbage down the Matterhorn, whenever he's not fishtailing all over the Alps in an absurdly over-compensating-for-something German-made convertible.
> 
> I don't want to tell tales out of school, but there are two ways to say the brand name - both make you sound like you've got too much money and are half in the bag, which, appropriately enough, is PRECISELY how I always picture Ric.


At least it confirms that I really am a complete dick.

Ric


----------



## ChiefWahoo (Jul 4, 2011)

***** Christ, Doc! Congratulations. You've made a watch so hot it's #[email protected]&able. I'd have preferred 44 or 45 with the small dial, but those hands look like they'll be easy to read, even as my eyes continue going to ...... 
In for one, and maybe two. Now to figure out which of my wife's stuff to sell to afford these. . .


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

ChiefWahoo said:


> ***** Christ, Doc! Congratulations. You've made a watch so hot it's #[email protected]&able. I'd have preferred 44 or 45 with the small dial, but those hands look like they'll be easy to read, even as my eyes continue going to ......
> In for one, and maybe two. Now to figure out which of my wife's stuff to sell to afford these. . .


I am potentially coming to the conclusion that the ultimately drastic step of Wife Flipping may be the only way to achieve truth, full enlightenment and a decent watch collection.........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Double post


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Wife flipping? That's a new one to me. But I guess that's better than being flipped by the wife with a rolling pin after she sees all the watches you've accumulated.


----------



## tissotguy (Oct 31, 2014)

Ragl said:


> To all of my W.U.S. - W.I.S. colleagues in the U.S.A., have a great 4th of July.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


----------



## ShamPain (Jun 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Maybe.
> 
> the shutdown of the Eterna brand (not to be confused with Eterna Movements Asia, which will continue on, at least for now)


Wait, WHAT? I hadn't heard about that. I just googled a bit and the most recent thing I could come up with is this, which says the opposite (while noting that the brand is definitely in trouble). Do you know something I don't know?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ShamPain said:


> Wait, WHAT? I hadn't heard about that. I just googled a bit and the most recent thing I could come up with is this, which says the opposite (while noting that the brand is definitely in trouble). Do you know something I don't know?


https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=4358714

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## ShamPain (Jun 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Sad news about Eterna


Ahh. The link I posted post-dates that one. Hopefully these were just rumors. They had new models at BaselWorld this year, so I hope they're not done. Definitely some re-organization needed tho.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Iliyan said:


> A brand being "big and well known" does not guarantee quality. I am not at all impressed by the quality of Glycine. Both my NTHs are way way better made than any Glycine that I've handled. I am also not particularly attracted to their designs. The market spoke and Glycine is now owned by a brand hardly known for its quality. To answer your "question" - I'll buy a good microbrand any day.


I merely mentioned Glycine as ONE and only one brand that was on sale. If you look at Jomashop etc. you'll often see LOTS of high-end brands for sale at the $550-750 range. I'm very very pleased with all of Doc's watches -- his designs, build quality, QC, etc.

My comment was only that it seems to me that all of those higher ends on sale at about the list price of microbrands would, I'd guess, have some impact.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ShamPain said:


> Ahh. The link I posted post-dates that one. Hopefully these were just rumors. They had new models at BaselWorld this year, so I hope they're not done. Definitely some re-organization needed tho.


Doesn't sound very promising.

Their two luxury brands are both losing money. The management team of "almost broke even" Corum is going to share its "expertise" with "even more under water" Eterna?

Expertise on what, exactly? The CEO of Corum left only two months after taking on the additional responsibility of Eterna.

If he was such a good CEO, why is Corum almost breaking even (instead of profitable)? What could he have seen at Eterna that was so bad he ran screaming for the hills?

I barely got through college, with a liberal arts degree from a state school, yet I taught myself enough to start a watch business that's made a profit since day one, starting with almost no money, knowing nothing about the product or the market, and making colossal mistakes all along the way.

How effed up must things be at Corum and Eterna, if neither brand can turn a profit despite respected brand names with decades of "heritage", hundreds of years of combined experience between all the people in their management team, and a $5 million infusion of cash?

Give me half of that amount and a dozen competent people, I'll take over the industry before the end of this decade.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## ShamPain (Jun 3, 2014)

^^ Not arguing with that. I'm only saying I hope they can right the ship. I'm sick and tired of "heritage brand" meaning only like 3 companies, and Eterna has done some really great stuff over their years. 

Yes, I know it's not the same company, but no company is the same as it was 150 years ago.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Doc is in a better shape with no liabilities, a quick thinking marketing strategy, good (and increasingly positive) word of mouth, and premium designs for less cost. 

I'd much rather be in Doc's shoes than Eterna's.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Ragl said:


> I am potentially coming to the conclusion that the ultimately drastic step of Wife Flipping may be the only way to achieve truth, full enlightenment and a decent watch collection.........
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


I'm pretty sure I did some wife flipping on the honeymoon. The good old days.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ShamPain said:


> ^^ Not arguing with that. I'm only saying I hope they can right the ship. I'm sick and tired of "heritage brand" meaning only like 3 companies, and Eterna has done some really great stuff over their years.
> 
> Yes, I know it's not the same company, but no company is the same as it was 150 years ago.


I hope they can right the ship, too. I've always liked the Eterna brand, and their design language.

I'm not in any way knowledgeable about their recent corporate ownership history, vis-a-vis whether or not there was any break in continuity, in which the brand was effectively dormant (not producing anything) before being revived under new ownership.

If that didn't happen, and they've been in constant operation, just under new ownership by Citychamp since they were bought, that wouldn't make them a different company, in my opinion (though no doubt being acquired has some impact on corporate culture).



Tanjecterly said:


> Doc is in a better shape with no liabilities, a quick thinking marketing strategy, good (and increasingly positive) word of mouth, and premium designs for less cost.
> 
> I'd much rather be in Doc's shoes than Eterna's.


I'd rather be in my shoes, too, but then I often work barefoot.

It's ironic how many times I've seen someone remark how the "heritage" brands have an advantage over the more nimble upstart micros. The steady decline in health of the Swiss luxury watch industry never seems to register with the doubters.



hawkeye86 said:


> I'm pretty sure I did some wife flipping on the honeymoon. The good old days.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Stop the thread, this post just won the innerwebz!


----------



## ShamPain (Jun 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I hope they can right the ship, too. I've always liked the Eterna brand, and their design language.
> 
> I'm not in any way knowledgeable about their recent corporate ownership history, vis-a-vis whether or not there was any break in continuity, in which the brand was effectively dormant (not producing anything) before being revived under new ownership.
> 
> If that didn't happen, and they've been in constant operation, just under new ownership by Citychamp since they were bought, that wouldn't make them a different company, in my opinion (though no doubt being acquired has some impact on corporate culture).


I like many of their designs too. I currently own one -- a triple-date moonphase monopusher automatic chrono, based on a Valjoux, with very nice construction -- and had some intention of getting a Kon Tiki at some point. Altho I might scratch that itch with a Sea Wolf or maybe even an Nth (if they aren't all gone)!

I don't think they ever went dormant, but I can't claim expertise on that question.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

docvail said:


> I hope they can right the ship, too. I've always liked the Eterna brand, and their design language.
> 
> I'm not in any way knowledgeable about their recent corporate ownership history, vis-a-vis whether or not there was any break in continuity, in which the brand was effectively dormant (not producing anything) before being revived under new ownership.
> 
> ...


Can I trade the innerwebz for a watch?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ShamPain said:


> I like many of their designs too. I currently own one -- a triple-date moonphase monopusher automatic chrono, based on a Valjoux, with very nice construction -- and had some intention of getting a Kon Tiki at some point. Altho I might scratch that itch with a Sea Wolf or maybe even an Nth (if they aren't all gone)!
> 
> I don't think they ever went dormant, but I can't claim expertise on that question.


I really like the KonTikis. Obviously they were among the influences for the Azores.

If you want a KonTiki, I would jump on the next sale you see. Who knows how much longer they'll be making them.

If you want an Azores, I wouldn't deliberate too long. We're nearly sold out, down to single-digit inventory on them.



hawkeye86 said:


> Can I trade the innerwebz for a watch?


You can't even trade it in for a box of broken hammers.

The innerwebz ain't worth what it used to be.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Sad news about Eterna





ShamPain said:


> Ahh. The link I posted post-dates that one. Hopefully these were just rumors. They had new models at BaselWorld this year, so I hope they're not done. Definitely some re-organization needed tho.


Honestly, I didn't even read the article found at the link in the OP of the thread I'd seen (the one posted above), until just now.

It sounds even worse than I thought - $11 million loss in one year? What's $5 million going to do?

I don't really want to instigate a protracted debate about what's going on inside CityChamp (owners of Eterna and Corum) specifically, or the industry in general, but I do have some opinions, based on my reading of the tea-leaves, and past experience working inside companies infused with outside capital.

1. Outside money is always invested based on a projected return on investment within a certain, often unrealistic timeframe.

It's not hard for me to imagine that whoever pitched CityChamp showed them some projection of cashflows based on assumptions including ramped up production and sales of new models with luxury-brand pricing (the most luxurious thing about that pricing being the profit margins).

But even if those projections weren't known to be utter bull$h1t when they were presented, they couldn't have taken into account the slowdown in Asia (outside the US, China + Hong Kong are the world's largest consumers of luxury watches), or that so many other Swiss brands would also get caught up in over-production.

Citychamp buys the business, and in order to get the projected return, they ramp up production. You see what's happened.

2. All the luxury Swiss brands are out of their minds.

I'm not going to provide a supporting argument. It's been done to death. You either see that they're insane, or you don't.

3. I met with the guys behind Eterna Movements Asia (the movements division within Citychamp, not to be confused with the Eterna watch brand). They seem like good guys with a good product, but it's the wrong product, and they don't want to hear it.

The basic, 3-hand automatic Eterna calibre is triple the cost of the STP1-11.

TRIPLE. THE. COST.

Is it a nice movement? Yes. It's very nice, with beautiful pearlage, and a long power reserve.

But it's TRIPLE. THE. COST.

The market isn't screaming for an alternative to the ETA 2824-2 that costs three times as much, even if it's "better" in some way. If the ETA 2824-2 is the benchmark "affordable workhorse Swiss movement" (and I believe it is THE benchmark by which all other alternatives are measured), and ETA is playing games with the supply chain (which they most definitely are), then what the market NEEDS is an affordable and accessible alternative to the ETA 2824-2.

The Sellita SW200 isn't it. Sellita doesn't have the same level of quality, nor do they have the capacity to meet market demand, nor do they appear to be completely independent of ETA. (Please don't ask me to expound on why the SW200 isn't equivalent to the 2824-2, and you can save the "all my SW200's have performed well" stories - talk to watchmakers who've worked on them, and you'll hear they are NOT equivalent.)

The Soprod A-10 (or whatever it's called now) isn't it. They're nice, but they're still more than double the cost of the 2824-2. They're not THAT nice, and I'm not sure they're WORTH double. I am sure it's hard for me to CHARGE double, so...

The Miyota 9015 was the alternative of choice for the last few years, and now it's looking like the STP1-11 is gaining ground. Having two good alternatives is nice. Having three would be even better, as it puts more pressure on the other two, and keeps them honest.

We'll see what Ronda can do, if they ever do anything. They've been talking about their new automatic calibre for over a year, but don't seem ready, willing and able to actually sell it, at least not to me, since they couldn't tell me what it cost when I asked them in Hong Kong last year, nor have they responded to the inquiry I made following Basel this year.

If Ronda doesn't pan out, there are a small handful of other, less well known companies with the potential to step up. Keep your eye on Horage. That's an interesting story developing there.

When the guy from Eterna movements followed up with me after Hong Kong, I told him all of the above, in more detail, politely, and persuasively. Point blank, the market needs more STP1-11's and Rondamatics - good, affordable, reliable, accessible alternatives to the 2824-2. It doesn't need another over-priced Swiss movement only 0.5% of the population can afford.

His response suggested they were unmoved, but I hope they're considering it all behind the scenes, just like I hope Seiko un-a$$es their heads and sells the NE88 for 1/3 less than what they're currently charging, and Miyota likewise un-a$$es their heads to come up with an improved 9015, not to mention an auto-chrono (and both Seiko & Miyota could use an automatic GMT, while we're heaping criticism on huge companies).

If STP and Ronda come up with affordable automatic chronos and GMT movements, to go along with affordable and plentiful 3-handers, it's game over for shops like Eterna movements and Soprod, and Miyota/Seiko will need to wake up and smell the saké if they want to maintain their share of the mid-market (what I consider $300-$800 retail). Eterna and Soprod are going to be fresh out of brands willing to buy their calibres at inflated costs, as the Germans selling in that $1,000-$3,000 range are developing their own in-house calibres.

They (Seiko, Miyota, Sellita, Soprod and Eterna) have all been slacking in the R&D and market intelligence departments for too long, while STP (and maybe Ronda) have been quietly innovating and building capacity, with a focus on what the market wants. Innovation and market intelligence trump "heritage" and lifestyle marketing, all day long.

Coming up with something to compete head-to-head with the STP1-11 might save Eterna Movements. Their current product range won't. If "$2,000" KonTikis are being dumped on the gray market for $600, maybe we'll see the movements division follow suit, and if so, there could be an Eterna-equipped NTH or L&H coming your way.

But I wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## Trango (Mar 1, 2014)

I would love to see a reverse panda Carrera homage with a NE88 at 38 or 40mm.......but it will never happen


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> I barely got through college, with a liberal arts degree from a state school, yet I taught myself enough to start a watch business that's made a profit since day one, starting with almost no money, knowing nothing about the product or the market, and making colossal mistakes all along the way.
> 
> How effed up must things be at Corum and Eterna, if neither brand can turn a profit despite respected brand names with decades of "heritage", hundreds of years of combined experience between all the people in their management team, and a $5 million infusion of cash?


Too many people on the industry drinking too much of their own kool-aid. Everybody has talked to death about it on the internet, but it's hard to believe how apparently well educated people, with successful careers outside horology, join the industry and pretend is cool to trash their MBA's and start doing what everybody does. It's mind boggling.

1) Calculating inventory shipped to the wholesale distributor as sales instead of you know, the final sale to the customer.
2) Ramping production without an actual plan on how the heck are you going to sell it.
3) Cash conversion cycles from 2 to 5 years for raw materials.
4) Weird and lavish expenditure on promotion / publicity
5) Too many SKU's and special editions.

Man, we can go on and on.



docvail said:


> 1. Outside money is always invested based on a projected return on investment within a certain, often unrealistic timeframe.
> 
> It's not hard for me to imagine that whoever pitched CityChamp showed them some projection of cashflows based on assumptions including ramped up production and sales of new models with luxury-brand pricing (the most luxurious thing about that pricing being the profit margins).
> 
> ...


On a MBA class a professor once told us: "investor money is the most expensive money you can get, ask for it as a last resource and have a good plan to deliver on your promises", but then again, the watch industry is "special" and rules don't apply, it seems.



docvail said:


> 2. All the luxury Swiss brands are out of their minds.
> 
> I'm not going to provide a supporting argument. It's been done to death. You either see that they're insane, or you don't.


I agree



docvail said:


> ...I hope Seiko un-a$$es their heads and sells the NE88 for 1/3 less than what they're currently charging


May I ask how much Seiko asks for the NE88? I've heard about this before but Moto Koure is asking 835 euro for a watch with it. Which being a vertical column wheel, vertical clutch movement, I'd say is dirt cheap. Way cheaper than most watches with the 7750.

https://www.motokoure.com/products/mk-i-mechanical-blue

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the cheapest watch with these characteristics was the master control from Jaeger LeCoultre, for like 8k euro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Trango said:


> I would love to see a reverse panda Carrera homage with a NE88 at 38 or 40mm.......but it will never happen


I think a lot of people would like something like that.

Aside from its price and lead time, the only thing I don't like about the NE88 is its size. It's chunky as hell. At 38mm diameter and any water resistance at all, the proportions would be pretty blocky.

I may be wrong, but I think it's also a large diameter movement. I'm not entirely positive you could make one in a 38mm case with more than 3 ATM WR. For comparison, I remember the ST19 is around 30mm, which is why most of the watches with them are light in the WR department.

I've looked into the NE88 a couple times. Setting aside the lead times and limited availability, with how it's currently priced, I think the absolute lowest price I could charge for a watch with one would be $1200, and it could easily be more.

Drop the cost by 1/3 (which I believe they could do, if they wanted to), let me buy as many as I need, and make them available on demand, we could see micros making and selling them for ~$800. That may still sound pricey compared to some Swatch group models with 7750's on sale for $600-$750, but the NE88 is a better movement all around.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## Trango (Mar 1, 2014)

$1200 would be a tough sell for me personally, but at $800 I'd certainly consider it. Hell - I'd even forgo an automatic and just go with the ST19, especially is it could be 11-12mm thick! I've always thought the 1963's would be a good base to mod for carrera homages.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pato_Lucas said:


> Too many people on the industry drinking too much of their own kool-aid. Everybody has talked to death about it on the internet, but it's hard to believe how apparently well educated people, with successful careers outside horology, join the industry and pretend is cool to trash their MBA's and start doing what everybody does. It's mind boggling.
> 
> 1) Calculating inventory shipped to the wholesale distributor as sales instead of you know, the final sale to the customer.
> 2) Ramping production without an actual plan on how the heck are you going to sell it.
> ...


Believe it or not, the people working at Seiko's booth in HK couldn't tell us the price, so you end up in the weird world of dodgy price quotes from unknown vendors and rumor-mill speculation.

Two or three years ago, my best guess was that it was $150-ish per unit, not taking into account the added costs I'd incur through waiting for it, not being able to buy it in preferred quantities, etc.

I have no idea what it would be now, and I'm not interested enough to investigate.

835 Euro is about $950. Is that in stock, ready for delivery, or pre-order? On a strap or a bracelet? How's their quality? How's their service?

Straton is selling the new Syncro, which looks awesome, for $999 on their site today. It's on a leather rally strap, and has decent specs, as well as a choice of case sizes, date/no-date options, choice of bezel, great color combos, etc. It says "pre-order", but I know they're shipping them all right now.

EDIT - choice of leather strap or mesh bracelet, plus two NATOs with either option. Not bad.

Full disclosure, I'm friendly with the owner, Kyle Schut, but I'd say all this regardless, as he's been doing great work, and his customers seem happy. Here's a link, for those interested:

https://www.stratonwc.com/collections/frontpage

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

I love the sudden flashes of education this thread delivers with an unexpected blast in regular order. Great read 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Trango said:


> $1200 would be a tough sell for me personally, but at $800 I'd certainly consider it. Hell - I'd even forgo an automatic and just go with the ST19, especially is it could be 11-12mm thick! I've always thought the 1963's would be a good base to mod for carrera homages.


My thinking was a $1200 retail, $800 pre-order, but considering the drop off in interest when pre-order prices go above $500, it gets hard for me to see my way to doing it.

If the prices came down to $800 retail, then maybe we'd be at $500 pre-order, which is still more than some can do on a pre-order, but I think the numbers would be more understandable in that scenario.

I think the Riccardo was 14mm thick, maybe 14.5. The automatic ST1940 is a little thicker than the hand-wind only versions, and with a 42mm diameter x 100m WR, the crystal and caseback beefed things up. A 11mm-12mm thick chrono is much more reasonable, and only a little chunky if the diameter is 38mm.

HKEd does (or did) make a version of the '63 with a tan dial and black sub-dials, which had a somewhat Jack Heuer 80th anniversary Carerra look to it. I'm nearly certain they're 38mm.

Jack Heuer 80th Anniversary:









HKEd Project '63:









Jack Heuer:









Ed:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those of you on Facebook, I finally got around to creating a group for fans of NTH/L&H -

https://www.facebook.com/groups/JanisTradingCoFans/

You're welcome to join us.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

I know you said not to ask, but...it is in my name to be confused 
I had always thought that the Sellita SW200 was comparable to ETA 2824, Miyota 9015, and the STP1-11.
This is however coming from someone who has not owned a Sellita SW200.


----------



## GUTuna (Dec 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> 3. I met with the guys behind Eterna Movements Asia (the movements division within Citychamp, not to be confused with the Eterna watch brand). They seem like good guys with a good product, but it's the wrong product, and they don't want to hear it.
> 
> The basic, 3-hand automatic Eterna calibre is triple the cost of the STP1-11.
> 
> ...


Very well put. For point of comparison, the Slovakian microbrand Biatec has released their pilot watch, the Corsair, with the Eterna 3901A using a custom rotor. At retail without VAT, they are going for 1150 Euro.


----------



## SigmaPiJiggy (Mar 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> I hope Seiko un-a$$es their heads....


One thing that BLOWS MY MIND:

They could re-tool their 6R2x movements to simply accommodate a frigging date window and have the 3 hand answer. I have never been overly impressed with a Seiko movement *GASP! Heresy!* I owned a 4S15 Alpinist which is the exception- but it's what I'm sort of suggesting here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ConfusedOne said:


> I know you said not to ask, but...it is in my name to be confused
> I had always thought that the Sellita SW200 was comparable to ETA 2824, Miyota 9015, and the STP1-11.
> This is however coming from someone who has not owned a Sellita SW200.


The SW200 is an ETA 2824-2 clone, so many people believe they're equivalent in quality, since they're equivalent in design, but I've heard from multiple watchmakers that they're not equivalent in quality. I'm told the parts are not as robust, the assembly is not as good, etc.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Duplicate post.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Believe it or not, the people working at Seiko's booth in HK couldn't tell us the price, so you end up in the weird world of dodgy price quotes from unknown vendors and rumor-mill speculation.
> 
> Two or three years ago, my best guess was that it was $150-ish per unit, not taking into account the added costs I'd incur through waiting for it, not being able to buy it in preferred quantities, etc.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback, I wonder what on earth is Seiko thinking, they have the exact opposite problem than Swiss watchmakers: they have the demand, lots of it, but for some half a$$ed reason they refuse to pump production, earlier this year I was thinking on maybe getting a Snowflake, but the only AD on Barcelona is only getting 4 for the year, and of course they're sold out before he even gets them. The internet is full of stories like this.

That being said, $150 for a column wheel, vertical clutch automatic chronograph is pretty sweet considering is orders of magnitude harder to build than a cam lever, horizontal clutch chrono like the 7750.

Thanks for reminding me of the Straton, I've heard really good things about the Moto Koure but obviously the Straton is a good brand, will have to do some thinking.



docvail said:


> For those of you on Facebook, I finally got around to creating a group for fans of NTH/L&H -
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/JanisTradingCoFans/
> 
> You're welcome to join us.


Count me in, having the opportunity to break Doc's balls on different forums is appreciated 

j/k


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pato_Lucas said:


> Thanks for the feedback, I wonder what on earth is Seiko thinking, they have the exact opposite problem than Swiss watchmakers: they have the demand, lots of it, but for some half a$$ed reason they refuse to pump production, earlier this year I was thinking on maybe getting a Snowflake, but the only AD on Barcelona is only getting 4 for the year, and of course they're sold out before he even gets them. The internet is full of stories like this.
> 
> That being said, $150 for a column wheel, vertical clutch automatic chronograph is pretty sweet considering is orders of magnitude harder to build than a cam lever, horizontal clutch chrono like the 7750.
> 
> ...


That was two years ago. The $150 was hard to swallow, considering the costs of the 3-hand Japanese movements at that time were about $25-$40.

When you add in the longer lead times, uncertainty about that being the actual price you'll pay, uncertainty about how many you'll be able to get, the added cost of small production runs, and the need to make a margin on it all, it's not sweet.

You see the pricing you're getting from Moto Koure and Straton. Those are low prices, in my opinion, all things considered. I don't know about MK, but in Straton's case, he's using the same case for automatic or meca-quartz, which helps keep the production costs from getting out of hand, because he's able to meet MOQ's that way.

Seiko had an automatic chrono movement as far back as the late 60's. They stopped production, but that doesn't mean they had to start their R&D from scratch with the NE88 design.

They've had that calibre for years, used it in their own higher-end Ananta line, and for a while, Invicta was using it in watches they sold for $500 on Amazon. It was one of the benchmarks I looked at when making the Riccardo.

Seiko could afford to sell it for less than $150 two years ago, and make it readily available, in known quantities. For some reason, they chose not to, and I've since lost interest.

When I can get them for $100/unit, I may be interested again, maybe, but even at that, the return for repair rate on them would be higher, just for slipped chrono seconds hands, due to the flyback mechanism, so I have to factor that into my costs. I'm not sure I want to be in that business.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



GUTuna said:


> Very well put. For point of comparison, the Slovakian microbrand Biatec has released their pilot watch, the Corsair, with the Eterna 3901A using a custom rotor. At retail without VAT, they are going for 1150 Euro.
> 
> View attachment 12331055


Maybe 15 years ago, a co-worker of mine and I tried to kill a couple of hours we had between appointments by looking at new cars. We were dressed in business attire, nothing shabby, but we got the cold shoulder at a couple of dealerships, one Lexus, one Jaguar.

It was an odd feeling to be treated with open disdain by the lady working the front desk, and not get the time of day from the salespeople working there. I still like both brands, but it lessened my enthusiasm for both. I have a policy about not chasing anyone down to give them my money.

Unfortunately, there's a similar attitude towards small manufacturers (like my business) among the movement manufacturers. I've reached out to ETA, Sellita, Soprod, Ronda, Seiko and Miyota to get info on product availability and pricing, but most didn't even bother to respond.

One of the Japanese shops did (maybe both did), but only to tell me they wouldn't answer my questions, and I'd have to go through my factory, which is bull$h!t. I believe they do that to support the network of middlemen wholesalers, but still, I'm a manufacturer, you could give me SOME info.

STP is an anomaly in how willing they are to communicate with me directly, and to a slightly lesser extent, so is Eterna, inasmuch as the sales guy followed up with me, even after I told them the prices were out of my range.

Even so, within our exchange, when I mentioned STP, he had that "our stuff is more special" air about him, sort of like the lady at the front desk of the Lexus dealership, who dripped with condescension when she suggested we make an appointment just to get some info about a car:

"You guys are trying to _sell_ these, right?"

"We don't have to '_sell_' them, we're '_Lexus_'."

There was a discussion about that Biatec in the Microbrand Watches FB group not that long ago. I remember thinking they were asking a lot of money for a basic, blue-dialed pilot watch. But of course, then you get into the rotor customization, which is nice, but something a lot of WIS get over quickly, and the fact that it's got an _Eterna_ movement in it (sort of like 'Lexus').

I think a lot of people - consumers and manufacturers - buy into that. Like, if you're giving me an attitude, there must be a reason, so I guess I better want what you have, or else I'll be labeled an uncouth slob, and all the swells will point at me and laugh.

The 65 hour power reserve is interesting, until you've got so many watches that the watch is dead when you go back to wear it, no matter how long the PR is. On the other hand, if you're wearing it every day, who gives a f**k how long it will run when you take it off, so long as it's longer than 12 hours?

The PR difference between the Eterna and the STP (44 hours) is 21 hours - not even a full day. 65 hours is 2.7 days. If you're not wearing it for 3 at a time, the added PR is of no value.

Does it have a higher beat rate? No, but even if it did, I doubt I'd notice it once you get above 8 beats per second.

It's rated at +/- 7 seconds/day, but again, if I'm rotating through any more than 2 or 3 watches, I'm never going to notice the difference between +/- 15 secs/day (the spec on the STP1-11) and +/- 7 secs/day (or whatever COSC spec is), when every watch is stopped when I go to put one on.

Even if I'm an accuracy nut, and check the accuracy while wearing it, there are 86,400 seconds in a day. We're talking about the difference between 99.98% accuracy and 99.99% accuracy, before you account for isochronism (the change in accuracy based on PR). No one here is going to miss those 8 seconds (or fewer) enough to pay the price difference.

I struggle to make sense of any "added" value to be had in any mechanical movement when the 9015 and STP1-11 are as good as they are. Why would you, as my customer, want me to pay 2 or 3 times more for a Soprod or Eterna, unless you're some sort of uber-geeky movement snob? I guarantee half the people who've ever typed out the words "co-axial" have no clue what the import of that term is (I know I don't, nor do I care, so put me in with the clueless 50%).

I can see if you're willing to pay $100 more to get a 9015 or STP over a more workhorse NH35 or 8215 - that gets you a higher beat rate and smoother seconds hand, something you see every time you look at the watch, PLUS better accuracy, and with the STP, a longer PR, too.

So, in my opinion, there's a REALLY limited value in having a "nicer" movement, and it puts a very low ceiling over how much more I'm willing to pay to get it. I'm certainly not willing to pay double or more for the finished watch (using the Eterna in the Subs would have made them ~$1300-ish, rather than $600).

A lot of the online discussion comparing higher end movements seems like a d**k measuring contest, but with less potential to impress observers.

If you take the "nicer" movement out of it, what are you buying?

The design, the other specs and components, the quality, etc, which is why I put the work into design and sourcing the best quality, rather than blowing smoke about how super-duper the fancy-pants movement is.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Thanks Doc. I was looking into getting one of the crazy high PR panerei watches (even though it would eat my entire wrist), but now I can't justify spending the extra $12,000!

What to do.....what to do.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> 1. Outside money is always invested based on a projected return on investment within a certain, often unrealistic timeframe.


There are some "rare" other situations... The company wants to grab what they see as a luxury brand in an attempt to change their image. In such cases (right or wrong, good or bad choices), projected ROI is not the concern.



docvail said:


> My thinking was a $1200 retail, $800 pre-order, but considering the drop off in interest when pre-order prices go above $500, it gets hard for me to see my way to doing it.


I know that you're talking about a chrono, but...

A couple of days ago I saw a Tissot T-Navigator T0624301705700 3 hander day/date with an ETA 2836-2 movement for sale on Amazon and Joma (still is) for $225. I don't know what Tissot is like now, but they used to have a great reputation. I'd think that such prices for in-stock new watches with ETA movements must have some impact on the buying public's price perception.


----------



## andrea__81 (Jul 27, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The SW200 is an ETA 2824-2 clone, so many people believe they're equivalent in quality, since they're equivalent in design, but I've heard from multiple watchmakers that they're not equivalent in quality. I'm told the parts are not as robust, the assembly is not as good, etc.
> 
> New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


Funny thing is I asked Elshan "Zelos" whether he considered STP for his upcoming "Swiss movement" collection, he said that he felt STP is too young and unproven, hence he decided to play it safe with the Sellita despite the higher cost. Of course different folks can have different opinions but it may become a bit confusing for the consumer.

Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk


----------



## SuperP (Aug 4, 2015)

Funny thing to me tho is that the SW200 its aboard on more than half of the Tridents from Ward and never heard anybody complaining or saying a bad thing about them.
Sounds like sour grapes to me...


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

I am very fortunate in that I live in a low cost of living location, and I make far more money than the average income for where I live. This enables me to enjoy my hobbies, and I enjoy collecting watches like everyone else on this forum. My collection is pretty darn solid too, I own multiple 9015 watches, a few NH35's, multiple 2824-2's, a SW 200, and a SW 220, a 7750, blah blah blah. Hell I even have a 2892-A2 getting worked on now. 

I don't know, maybe I am a "movement snob", but when I go to buy a watch these days and I see NH35 or 9015 I tend to walk away unless something about the watch is really fantastic. I even feel that way about 2824-2's. I just don't need another watch with a movement I already own three of. So when I saw Biatec, I was excited, and I definitely pre ordered. 

In Biatec's defense, the Movement is not the whole cost. It has an enamel dial, a pretty interesting case design with very different lugs, the customized rotor, diamond style crown, etc. I even recently saw a lume match up video on youtube with one watch reviewer who has a Corsair. He placed it as the second best lume out of the bunch. It lost only to the watch I really enjoy hating, the Seiko SKX, but beat a Rolex Submariner, an Omega Seamaster 300, and a Damasko DA35.

There is a lot more going on in that 1150 euro retail tag than "Eterna 3901-A". Not even going into the fact that Peter, the owner of Biatec, is just a great guy to work with, and very respectful of his customers.

PS: This also is why I have a very close eye on that Horage Kickstarter running right now. I just wish you could get a small seconds, with big date, and no power reserve. That would probably put me over the edge.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

andrea__81 said:


> Funny thing is I asked Elshan "Zelos" whether he considered STP for his upcoming "Swiss movement" collection, he said that he felt STP is too young and unproven, hence he decided to play it safe with the Sellita despite the higher cost. Of course different folks can have different opinions but it may become a bit confusing for the consumer.
> 
> Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk


I can't speak for Elshan, only myself. I don't know how many watchmakers he has access to, or how many other micros he knows personally.

I've worked with four different watchmakers, three of them very well trained and experienced, and compared notes with other micros, so that's how I came to understand the reputation of the SW200 from people who've worked on them and with them. Sellita's reputation isn't good, based on the firsthand experience of people who've used them or worked on them.

I showed the sample STP movements I got to two of the watchmakers I work with, and they were impressed.



SuperP said:


> Funny thing to me tho is that the SW200 its aboard on more than half of the Tridents from Ward and never heard anybody complaining or saying a bad thing about them.
> Sounds like sour grapes to me...


Sour grapes from who, a bunch of watchmakers you don't know, and have nothing to gain from saying they don't like the SW200, or do you mean me?

Like I said, I'm aware many people have watches with them, and haven't had problems. What I'm talking about is watchmakers who've serviced them, and found consistent problems, and had to deal with their supply chain, which isn't overly helpful.

Believe what you want. I won't be using them until their reputation among watchmakers improves.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

I'll take a nice watch, under 400...with nh35 all day long... just saying

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Karkarov said:


> I am very fortunate in that I live in a low cost of living location, and I make far more money than the average income for where I live. This enables me to enjoy my hobbies, and I enjoy collecting watches like everyone else on this forum. My collection is pretty darn solid too, I own multiple 9015 watches, a few NH35's, multiple 2824-2's, a SW 200, and a SW 220, a 7750, blah blah blah. Hell I even have a 2892-A2 getting worked on now.
> 
> I don't know, maybe I am a "movement snob", but when I go to buy a watch these days and I see NH35 or 9015 I tend to walk away unless something about the watch is really fantastic. I even feel that way about 2824-2's. I just don't need another watch with a movement I already own three of. So when I saw Biatec, I was excited, and I definitely pre ordered.
> 
> ...


I'm not trash-talking the Biatec. It looks like a nice watch, and I'm happy to hear the owner sounds like a nice guy, and provides good service, which helps the reputation of all micros. I only discussed it because someone mentioned it.

Of course the movement isn't the whole cost. I never said it was, but it's the driving factor in the retail price on that one. I know because I know production costs, and what components drive them more than others.

The enamel dial adds a very small expense. It's something brands talk about as if it's liquid gold, but it's just a liquid coating that gets baked on, nothing all that complicated or exotic. We could do a glossy finish on a dial, and most WIS would be hard pressed to see the difference.

I just looked at the case. It's good-looking, but nothing exotic or complicated, certainly not something that adds to the cost over any other case design. It's pretty standard, except for what looks like a polished chamfer on the inside of the lugs, which is interesting, but doesn't add that much to the overall cost.

Lume is an expensive material, something I found out when we had custom lume created for the NTH crowns, but getting "good lume" doesn't require using a ton of it. That's not adding that much to the cost. A lot of what people think is "good lume" is just surface area differences - the more surface area, the more glow you see.

The customized rotor no doubt adds more to the cost than the dial, case and lume. Like I said, it's a cool detail, VERY cool in the case of that Biatec, but I think a lot of WIS get over that stuff pretty quickly. Just my opinion.

Horage is interesting to me, inasmuch as I see them as being primarily a movement manufacturer that's gone into making watches, I think in order to showcase their movements and prime the pump for other companies to buy them, so they can ramp up production volume, which is why I think so many of their watches show the movement through the dial, if there even is a dial.

There's nothing wrong with being a "movement snob" if you're into watches. I just have to consider costs and market appeal as they relate to my business. It's hard enough for me, as a microbrand, to deal with people who say, "for $____, I expect a 'name' brand."

We're delivering a level of quality that competes, if not beats, watches which cost twice as much. If we double the cost by using an Eterna or Soprod movement, that doesn't do anything to improve the rest of the package. People have to WANT to pay the added cost, and from what I've seen, most people DON'T. And I understand why, since I'm a pragmatic sort.

If the difference in specs aren't enough to really notice them, I think people get over the "cool factor" of knowing their watch has an Eterna or Soprod inside it pretty quickly, when the watch works about as well as it would if it had a 9015 or STP inside.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Posted on another thread, but just as relevant here:

As if by magic and with impeccable timing, my "new" Commander 300 arrived today!! Bought from a fellow WUS member last week and now filling a very large hole in my watch collection; many thanks ismav123.
But, who is that lurking in the background? That is Omega Master Co-Axial, he is smiling at the moment because it has been a while since he has been out of his box, however, that smile will soon be wiped off his dial as he is going back into his box, probably never to be seen again for a very long time. Will I flip him? maybe, as I have to fund the purchase of Commander 300 and other superior watches that I have my eye on. S'funny what I once thought was cool and on-trend........









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Goodfellas (Dec 19, 2016)

Stop the fu**ing Internet Right Now! I know we often joke about "winning the interwebz" but seriously, this post wins, PERIOD! Most times that comment is made with regard to something humorous but not in this case (at least by me). I've never seen a single post (on a relatively obscure thread, on a "not-high-end" sub-forum, of a "non-mainstream" forum, on just one {of many.. watch websites) provide enough information to turn a watch noob into a serious enthusiast! At the very least, this immediately weeds out the posers. Doc wins...and if you don't like it, you may now proceed to suck it! Now you will kindly excuse me while I step outside to kick my own a$$ for all that kissing a$$ I just did!

*UNPLUG THE NET!
*







*GRAVITY B*TCH!
*







*MAYBE NOT AS KEWL AS A RAPPER TO YOU...BUT WAY MORE IMPRESSIVE TO ME!
**





NO, NOT neil patrick harris...but Mr. Neil deGrasse Tyson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson



docvail said:



Honestly, I didn't even read the article found at the link in the OP of the thread I'd seen (the one posted above), until just now.

It sounds even worse than I thought - $11 million loss in one year? What's $5 million going to do?

I don't really want to instigate a protracted debate about what's going on inside CityChamp (owners of Eterna and Corum) specifically, or the industry in general, but I do have some opinions, based on my reading of the tea-leaves, and past experience working inside companies infused with outside capital.

1. Outside money is always invested based on a projected return on investment within a certain, often unrealistic timeframe.

It's not hard for me to imagine that whoever pitched CityChamp showed them some projection of cashflows based on assumptions including ramped up production and sales of new models with luxury-brand pricing (the most luxurious thing about that pricing being the profit margins).

But even if those projections weren't known to be utter bull$h1t when they were presented, they couldn't have taken into account the slowdown in Asia (outside the US, China + Hong Kong are the world's largest consumers of luxury watches), or that so many other Swiss brands would also get caught up in over-production.

Citychamp buys the business, and in order to get the projected return, they ramp up production. You see what's happened.

2. All the luxury Swiss brands are out of their minds.

I'm not going to provide a supporting argument. It's been done to death. You either see that they're insane, or you don't.

3. I met with the guys behind Eterna Movements Asia (the movements division within Citychamp, not to be confused with the Eterna watch brand). They seem like good guys with a good product, but it's the wrong product, and they don't want to hear it.

The basic, 3-hand automatic Eterna calibre is triple the cost of the STP1-11.

TRIPLE. THE. COST.

Is it a nice movement? Yes. It's very nice, with beautiful pearlage, and a long power reserve.

But it's TRIPLE. THE. COST.

The market isn't screaming for an alternative to the ETA 2824-2 that costs three times as much, even if it's "better" in some way. If the ETA 2824-2 is the benchmark "affordable workhorse Swiss movement" (and I believe it is THE benchmark by which all other alternatives are measured), and ETA is playing games with the supply chain (which they most definitely are), then what the market NEEDS is an affordable and accessible alternative to the ETA 2824-2.

The Sellita SW200 isn't it. Sellita doesn't have the same level of quality, nor do they have the capacity to meet market demand, nor do they appear to be completely independent of ETA. (Please don't ask me to expound on why the SW200 isn't equivalent to the 2824-2, and you can save the "all my SW200's have performed well" stories - talk to watchmakers who've worked on them, and you'll hear they are NOT equivalent.)

The Soprod A-10 (or whatever it's called now) isn't it. They're nice, but they're still more than double the cost of the 2824-2. They're not THAT nice, and I'm not sure they're WORTH double. I am sure it's hard for me to CHARGE double, so...

The Miyota 9015 was the alternative of choice for the last few years, and now it's looking like the STP1-11 is gaining ground. Having two good alternatives is nice. Having three would be even better, as it puts more pressure on the other two, and keeps them honest.

We'll see what Ronda can do, if they ever do anything. They've been talking about their new automatic calibre for over a year, but don't seem ready, willing and able to actually sell it, at least not to me, since they couldn't tell me what it cost when I asked them in Hong Kong last year, nor have they responded to the inquiry I made following Basel this year.

If Ronda doesn't pan out, there are a small handful of other, less well known companies with the potential to step up. Keep your eye on Horage. That's an interesting story developing there.

When the guy from Eterna movements followed up with me after Hong Kong, I told him all of the above, in more detail, politely, and persuasively. Point blank, the market needs more STP1-11's and Rondamatics - good, affordable, reliable, accessible alternatives to the 2824-2. It doesn't need another over-priced Swiss movement only 0.5% of the population can afford.

His response suggested they were unmoved, but I hope they're considering it all behind the scenes, just like I hope Seiko un-a$$es their heads and sells the NE88 for 1/3 less than what they're currently charging, and Miyota likewise un-a$$es their heads to come up with an improved 9015, not to mention an auto-chrono (and both Seiko & Miyota could use an automatic GMT, while we're heaping criticism on huge companies).

If STP and Ronda come up with affordable automatic chronos and GMT movements, to go along with affordable and plentiful 3-handers, it's game over for shops like Eterna movements and Soprod, and Miyota/Seiko will need to wake up and smell the saké if they want to maintain their share of the mid-market (what I consider $300-$800 retail). Eterna and Soprod are going to be fresh out of brands willing to buy their calibres at inflated costs, as the Germans selling in that $1,000-$3,000 range are developing their own in-house calibres.

They (Seiko, Miyota, Sellita, Soprod and Eterna) have all been slacking in the R&D and market intelligence departments for too long, while STP (and maybe Ronda) have been quietly innovating and building capacity, with a focus on what the market wants. Innovation and market intelligence trump "heritage" and lifestyle marketing, all day long.

Coming up with something to compete head-to-head with the STP1-11 might save Eterna Movements. Their current product range won't. If "$2,000" KonTikis are being dumped on the gray market for $600, maybe we'll see the movements division follow suit, and if so, there could be an Eterna-equipped NTH or L&H coming your way.

But I wouldn't hold my breath.

Click to expand...

*


----------



## Goodfellas (Dec 19, 2016)

I stand ready to purchase your Master Co-Axial for whatever you paid for the Commander 300...LOL...I'm not greedy, I just need something in my collection that starts with the letter "O", that's all!


Ragl said:


> Posted on another thread, but just as relevant here:
> 
> As if by magic and with impeccable timing, my "new" Commander 300 arrived today!! Bought from a fellow WUS member last week and now filling a very large hole in my watch collection; many thanks ismav123.
> But, who is that lurking in the background? That is Omega Master Co-Axial, he is smiling at the moment because it has been a while since he has been out of his box, however, that smile will soon be wiped off his dial as he is going back into his box, probably never to be seen again for a very long time. Will I flip him? maybe, as I have to fund the purchase of Commander 300 and other superior watches that I have my eye on. S'funny what I once thought was cool and on-trend........
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'd love to own an Omega Planet Ocean, the older, thinner version that goes for about $2000-$2500 used. 

The problem is I don't love it nearly enough to part with $2000-$2500, so...Orthos fits the bill well enough for me.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Mil6161 said:


> I'll take a nice watch, under 400...with nh35 all day long... just saying
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


I agree. There was a forum project that I was interested in and there was a vote to either go with the NH35 or the more expensive NE15. We're talking about a sub-$400 watch here but the better caliber NE15 won out but it was $100 more at the end of the day. We're talking 25%+ more expensive on an exact same looking watch. There were a few "non-movement-snobs" like myself who dropped out because of that. At the end of the day, $100 difference on a "affordable" makes all the difference to someone who just wants a nice looking watch but don't care much about the movement, as long as it's automatic.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

My sentiments entirely Doc. I bought the Omega a few years ago thinking that it was the thing to have, but even so, the phrase - "is it really worth it?" - has constantly rung through my brain, along with the needling suspicion that I have been taken for a mug. 

As you have so rightly pointed out in several previous posts, how do they justify such big prices? In some ways, it is all "Emperors New Clothes", but some of those with plenty of disposable, pony up because they can and let's face it, the more I spend, the bigger my d**k syndrome comes into play all too often. 

For me today, the so called micros have the edge in so many ways and that is why my Omega will probably be in the private sales ads one day soon - but not for the price of a Commander 300 Mr. GratisShark......

Chow,

Alan


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Slant said:


> I agree. There was a forum project that I was interested in and there was a vote to either go with the NH35 or the more expensive NE15. We're talking about a sub-$400 watch here but the better caliber NE15 won out but it was $100 more at the end of the day. We're talking 25%+ more expensive on an exact same looking watch. There were a few "non-movement-snobs" like myself who dropped out because of that. At the end of the day, $100 difference on a "affordable" makes all the difference to someone who just wants a nice looking watch but don't care much about the movement, as long as it's automatic.


I think I know which one you are talking about. I was a bit of a Johnny-come-lately there, but I have to say that if it had had a NH35 rather than the NE15, I'd not have bought it. Proably would have wound up with an Azores instead. Oh, wait that has an STP1-11. (Sorry, Doc.)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> I think I know which one you are talking about. I was a bit of a Johnny-come-lately there, but I have to say that if it had had a NH35 rather than the NE15, I'd not have bought it. Proably would have wound up with an Azores instead. Oh, wait that has an STP1-11. (Sorry, Doc.)


No worries. Are we talking about Doug's 62MAS project? I haven't followed it that closely, only poked my head into the discussion a handful of times, mostly to see how it was progressing.

Like I said, I understand paying $100 more to go from an 8215 or NH35 to a 9015, or even an NE15, as there are some noticeable differences. I think getting into an STP for $100 more is even better, but it's all good.

I don't understand paying $600-$700 more for a movement with negligible additional performance, or incrementally more capability that most will never really notice.

Someone mentioned Panerai recently. Are they the ones with the 8 day PR, or am I thinking about IWC, or some other brand? Whoever, that's a noticeable increase, but then of course you're into the world of bloated luxury brand pricing anyway.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## Goodfellas (Dec 19, 2016)

Ragl said:


> My sentiments entirely Doc. I bought the Omega a few years ago thinking that it was the thing to have, but even so, the phrase - "is it really worth it?" - has constantly rung through my brain, along with the needling suspicion that I have been taken for a mug.
> 
> As you have so rightly pointed out in several previous posts, how do they justify such big prices? In some ways, it is all "Emperors New Clothes", but some of those with plenty of disposable, pony up because they can and let's face it, the more I spend, the bigger my d**k syndrome comes into play all too often.
> 
> ...


Yeah, yeah, I know... But I'm not ready to spend a couple of grand to increase the size of my member in my own mind... I don't know but it would seem like you could have actual surgery for that if you really needed it... Lol


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

GratisShark said:


> Yeah, yeah, I know... But I'm not ready to spend a couple of grand to increase the size of my member in my own mind... I don't know but it would seem like you could have actual surgery for that if you really needed it... Lol


I love that. Gotta send that to a buddy of mine back home. For the price of his Hummer he could have been hung like John Holmes. (Of course that's at least 10 years ago, and he was in an industry hit hard in 2008... If he needed, he could have sold the hummer.)

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Goodfellas (Dec 19, 2016)

macosie said:


> I love that. Gotta send that to a buddy of mine back home. For the price of his Hummer he could have been hung like John Holmes. (Of course that's at least 10 years ago, and he was in an industry hit hard in 2008... If he needed, he could have sold the hummer.)
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


Let me guess. Could it have possibly been the financial (investments) and/or the mortgage industries? Been there, done that... Lol


----------



## SigmaPiJiggy (Mar 19, 2016)

Slant said:


> I agree. There was a forum project that I was interested in and there was a vote to either go with the NH35 or the more expensive NE15. We're talking about a sub-$400 watch here but the better caliber NE15 won out but it was $100 more at the end of the day. We're talking 25%+ more expensive on an exact same looking watch. There were a few "non-movement-snobs" like myself who dropped out because of that. At the end of the day, $100 difference on a "affordable" makes all the difference to someone who just wants a nice looking watch but don't care much about the movement, as long as it's automatic.


Remember: That project with the NE15 still came out to only $360.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Goodfellas (Dec 19, 2016)

I'm not sure who mentioned the Sellita movement but feel free to consider this yet another anecdotal story. My experiences with Sellita have led to the conclusion that they are NOT equivalent to STP, much less to ETA. You may now begin the process of proving me wrong but don't hold your breath about changing my mind.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Before this Sellita thing becomes a huge distraction, please note I'm not saying they're bad movements. I've only said that they're not equivalent to ETA in quality, nothing more.

As a manufacturer, I have to make decisions about components, taking into account price vs performance, but I also consider availability, and long term reliability and ownership costs for my customers. 

Given other alternatives within a narrow cost range, I've chosen to use other movements, which are better choices, all around, in my opinion.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> I'd love to own an Omega Planet Ocean, the older, thinner version that goes for about $2000-$2500 used.
> 
> The problem is I don't love it nearly enough to part with $2000-$2500, so...Orthos fits the bill well enough for me.
> 
> New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.












They do go quite nicely together


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

docvail said:


> I may be wrong, but I think it's also a large diameter movement. I'm not entirely positive you could make one in a 38mm case with more than 3 ATM WR. For comparison, I remember the ST19 is around 30mm, which is why most of the watches with them are light in the WR department.


Isn't the chrono module built on top of basically a 6R? That movement certainly fits in 38mm watches.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



VF1Valkyrie said:


> Isn't the chrono module built on top of basically a 6R? That movement certainly fits in 38mm watches.


I don't know if it's a module built on top of the 6r. It may be, but they're not the same diameter, if it is.

I know I didn't say it wouldn't fit in a 38mm case. I said I wasn't entirely positive you could make one inside a 38mm case AND get more than 3 ATM WR.

As you add water resistance, the case walls get thicker, generally, and it gets more difficult to do the case engineering with less room to work inside. It gets easier if you add diameter to the case, in order to open up the inside. As you add case diameter and WR, the crystal and caseback also have to get thicker, so everything grows.

Looking at the spec sheet, it seems it's not that wide (though it is marginally wider than the 6r), just 28.6mm. Could you put one inside a 38mm case and get more than 3 ATM WR? Maybe. How much more? I don't know. Since the movement alone is almost 8mm thick, I know that watch would be one chunky monkey.

The Straton Syncro uses it, in a case that's 40mm, and has 20 ATM WR. It's also ~15mm thick.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Lol!!!! My Wife thinks I have a Mancrush on Doc.

I like most dudes here I am sure, does not stop talking about watches. My Wife does not understand but she listens. Anyways, we work together and our Boss is all right but not much of a businessman. I never grew up with much so I do not hold much value in resales. I am ok with giving someone in need something of mine that I don't use much and someone else could use. I have said it a few times but we both Manage roofing supply stores, think Home Depot but for roofing needs. It is a family run business and is currently in 3rd generation ownership which I fear our Boss will run it into the ground. I am not sure how anyone here would run their ****e but our boss try's to sell everything in his showroom. His kids 5 year old clothes, a wood burning stove he found in the garbage, an out of date car seat that was expired for 20 yrs that when my Wife told him to get rid of it he increased the price to $15!!!!

Come back to Doc, I really appreciate the fact he gives us inside details on this business that we all seem to love so much. Thanks for all the info brother!!!! Fear not brother, I am not about to sneak around your front yard shrubbery but if you ever come to Toronto, and need a shoulder rub.......I r there!!! 

BTW I am NOT currently drinking but if I was? Iono!!!


Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## ebtromba (Oct 18, 2015)

docvail said:


> The SW200 is an ETA 2824-2 clone, so many people believe they're equivalent in quality, since they're equivalent in design, but I've heard from multiple watchmakers that they're not equivalent in quality. I'm told the parts are not as robust, the assembly is not as good, etc.
> 
> New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


Was listening to the watchuwant show (one of the 45 minute live YouTube streams they do) with their watchmaker. He was explaining how the sellita movements vary according to who's watch they are in. Some manufacturers take the movements and really work on them and refine them, while some just sort of drop them in. He made it seem like a sellita in an Oris or a Sinn for example was likely to be just as nice as an ETA.

But that's just one guy, on one youtube video.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ebtromba said:


> Was listening to the watchuwant show (one of the 45 minute live YouTube streams they do) with their watchmaker. He was explaining how the sellita movements vary according to who's watch they are in. Some manufacturers take the movements and really work on them and refine them, while some just sort of drop them in. He made it seem like a sellita in an Oris or a Sinn for example was likely to be just as nice as an ETA.
> 
> But that's just one guy, on one youtube video.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


That may be true, as it is for some manufacturers that use ETA movements, but 'massage' them in some way, but it doesn't really negate what I was told.

I've heard multiple tales of parts that failed, difficulty getting replacements, due to a lackluster response from Sellita's supply chain, and replacements that then also failed.

A manufacturer could get the movements, have them broken down, gussied up, and re-assembled, but that doesn't make the parts themselves any more robust or less prone to failure, or the supply chain any better. At best, it makes the parts prettier, and hopefully might improve the assembly.

I'm not warning people off of buying them. All I'm saying is that they're not equivalent in QUALITY to ETA. I think of them as being essentially disposable, the same way I do the 9015 and the STP, and to a lesser extent, the ETA 2824-2, depending on service costs where you happen to be, versus replacement costs.

I'm well aware many brands use them, and many people are happy with them. I'm not trashing them.

I only mentioned them in the context of the industry needing a reliable, affordable, available, quality alternative to the ETA 2824-2, and I don't think Sellita is it, not just because the quality isn't really equivalent, but because they don't seem to have the necessary production capacity to really make a dent in demand, their attitude sucks (from what I'm told), they don't seem to be completely independent from ETA, and considering their costs, they don't represent a good value, in my opinion.

Their quality could be EXACTLY equivalent to ETA's, and everything else I just said would still be enough to keep me from considering them to be the 2824-2 alternative the market needs. Better quality wouldn't make them more available, or the supply chain less dickish. It wouldn't increase their capacity or make them a better value than the 9015 or STP, both of which I think of as reasonably good alternatives to the 2824-2, inasmuch as they seem to be more available, and offer better bang for the buck.

But again, none of that is me trashing them, or trying to tell anyone here to stay away from them.

Every company that uses them tells you they're equivalent to the ETA? Really? What a surprise! No wonder so many people think it's true!

But so many people haven't bothered asking the watchmakers who've worked on them for their opinions. I have, and I'm just telling you their opinions, based on their experience. Don't shoot the messenger, guys.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

As a (hopefully) last note on this whole Sellita thing...you all know what else is a design clone of the ETA 2824-2? 

The Sea-Gull ST21.

Anyone here want to say the Sea-gull is equivalent in quality to the ETA, since they're "clones"? 

No? Why?

"Chinese"? Really? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just being racist, and instead you assume that all the parts being interchangeable doesn't mean they're of equivalent quality, that assembly could be better/worse.

It's not just assembly. There are differences in parts quality, too, differences that can't be seen with the naked eye, nor tested, nor measured in any way other than using them until they break.

THAT'S the difference between an ETA and a Sea-gull, and it's ALSO the difference between an ETA and a Sellita - it's not just assembly, it's parts quality, and when the parts fail, you want a reliable supply chain for getting reliable replacements. 

Sellita's reputation on that score isn't good, at least not based on what I've been told from multiple independent sources with no axe to grind, and nothing to gain by running down Sellita as a way to hype ETA.

They're design clones. The parts from one will fit in the other. That's all. That doesn't make them equivalent in quality or reliability. If it did, why bother with ETA or Sellita at all? Why not get Sea-Gull to supply you with ST21's? 

That's all I'm saying.


----------



## ebtromba (Oct 18, 2015)

Werd doc. Interesting stuff. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## ebtromba (Oct 18, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> .
> 
> They're design clones. The parts from one will fit in the other.


Also, I am not sure this is literally true. The sw500 is a clone of the 7750. pretty certain a broken part in my Sinn chronograph which has a sw500 can't be replaced with the corresponding part from my Hamilton chronograph (7750)

Think this is the for the sw200-2824 and sw300-2836. Just because they're clones doesn't mean parts are interchangeable.

Which, actually, gives your argument even more weight.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ebtromba said:


> Also, I am not sure this is literally true. The sw500 is a clone of the 7750. pretty certain a broken part in my Sinn chronograph which has a sw500 can't be replaced with the corresponding part from my Hamilton chronograph (7750)
> 
> Think this is the for the sw200-2824 and sw300-2836. Just because they're clones doesn't mean parts are interchangeable.
> 
> ...


The degree of inter-changeability of parts from one "clone" calibre to another is getting well outside my area of real expertise. If I had to discuss it, I'd be guessing, based on logic and hearsay, at best.

However, I do know that, as just one example, the crown stem from the ETA can be used in the STP, which isn't even a true clone, since it has an additional jewel, and a longer PR. The STP is said to be "based on" the ETA, for whatever it's worth.

My thinking would be that the parts from one clone are interchangeable with another, based on my reading what people who seem to know what they're talking about have written, but like I said, it's outside my area of expertise. I would be interested to know why a part from the Sellita calibre wouldn't be compatible with the corresponding part from the ETA calibre.

If the parts aren't all interchangeable, it wouldn't surprise me if the reason is design changes the manufacturers have implemented over time, and the calibres have evolved independently. If that's happened, I'm not aware of it, but it would make sense.


----------



## ebtromba (Oct 18, 2015)

Makes sense.

Nacken vintage running like champ


----------



## ChiefWahoo (Jul 4, 2011)

I think the few people left not believing Doc's claims are only comparing owning the watch, not selling, warranting, and servicing the watch.


----------



## ChiefWahoo (Jul 4, 2011)

MikeCfromLI said:


> They do go quite nicely together


That watch on the right is perfect. If that were larger, I would quit watches.*

Chris, I have an offer for you: if your factory ever accidentally makes a one-off 44mm version of that in blue, I will, in exchange for the watch, not only cover all your costs, but also *take your place on your next family vacation*. I'm assuming that's worth more than the cost of the watch.  
You know how to reach me.

*does not include my various fun summer watches.


----------



## Goodfellas (Dec 19, 2016)

Speaking strictly with my "owner" hat on, my opinion is the same...Selitta is absolutely NOT equivalent to ETA and in my opinion it is also not equivalent to STP. The bottom line is that the consumers ultimately decide what manufacturers use by our willingness to spend our money. Now there are plenty of people who are easily influenced by what they hear or what they read so some of the cash will come from them. As for those of you with the intestinal fortitude to decide for yourselves, you have the power to influence what movements small manufacturers are willing to consider. Open your wallets for Sellita if you want; great for me since it removes certain manufacturers from my radar. But ultimately, don't behave as though you have no choices or voice in this discussion. You actually do....and you don't even have to speak in order to "voice" it. Simply vote with your wallets!


ChiefWahoo said:


> I think the few people left not believing Doc's claims are only comparing owning the watch, not selling, warranting, and servicing the watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone who enjoys reading my posts about the state of the industry, and what goes on behind the scenes, I highly recommend James Henderson's blog, Tempus Fugit.

Coincidentally, one of his recent posts related to the turmoil at Eternal, the history of it, the reasons for it, what might fix it, and a not so subtle jab at the pervasive yet often denied xenophobia which runs rampant in both the industry and the market:

http://www.tempusfugit.watch/2017/07/the-transfer-window-opens.html?m=1

Most bloggers stick to reviews, or doing friendly PR for brands with new models or announcements to promote. James does some of that stuff, too, but he is without a doubt the most fiercely ethical blogger in the industry. He flat out refuses to review anything or promote anything from any brand that pays to advertise on his blog. You can pay for advertising, or he can do unbiased reviews. You can't get both. He doesn't have a rate sheet for reviews, unlike some very well known blogs, nor does he have "sponsored content".

But what really sets him apart from the rest is the fact that he's got actual experience working in the industry, knows exactly what goes on behind the scenes, dishes the dirt, and calls out the BS when he sees it in a way that no other blog really does. He's not a cheerleader for the industry elite.

In short, his opinion matters, if you believe the truth matters, and he's worth checking out.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Nice. He has a good sense of humor and writing unlike some bloggers.

"....we have equated a promotion to running *Eterna* with a duck being promoted to a l'orange."


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> For anyone who enjoys reading my posts about the state of the industry, and what goes on behind the scenes, I highly recommend James Henderson's blog, Tempus Fugit.
> 
> Coincidentally, one of his recent posts related to the turmoil at Eternal, the history of it, the reasons for it, what might fix it, and a not so subtle jab at the pervasive yet often denied xenophobia which runs rampant in both the industry and the market:
> 
> ...


I've been following Tempus Fugit since you suggested it in another tread a lot of time ago. That blog is the .... that killed Elvis!

Is it coincidence that with the amount of knowledge he has on the industry he sometimes sounds almost as tired and jaded as you?, food for thought for the people thinking they can easily get into the industry...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> I've been following Tempus Fugit since you suggested it in another tread a lot of time ago. That blog is the .... that killed Elvis!
> 
> Is it coincidence that with the amount of knowledge he has on the industry he sometimes sounds almost as tired and jaded as you?, food for thought for the people thinking they can easily get into the industry...


I think it's just the attitude anyone would have if they don't want to drink the kool aid, especially if that's all you're ever offered.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Couple lume shots for you guys n gals...



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> But, who is that lurking in the background? That is Omega Master Co-Axial, he is smiling at the moment because it has been a while since he has been out of his box, however, that smile will soon be wiped off his dial as he is going back into his box, probably never to be seen again for a very long time. Will I flip him? maybe, as I have to fund the purchase of Commander 300 and other superior watches that I have my eye on. S'funny what I once thought was cool and on-trend........


I've always had a deep desire and longing, but no budget, to get a co-axial movement. I think that George Daniels was a genius and would love one!!!!



docvail said:


> Horage is interesting to me, inasmuch as I see them as being primarily a movement manufacturer that's gone into making watches, I think in order to showcase their movements and prime the pump for other companies to buy them, so they can ramp up production volume, which is why I think so many of their watches show the movement through the dial, if there even is a dial.


Their watches definitely showcase the K1 movement. And that movement sounds great to this neophyte. But, their watches are just too pricey for me at over CHF 1000.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

GratisShark said:


> I'm not sure who mentioned the Sellita movement but feel free to consider this yet another anecdotal story. My experiences with Sellita have led to the conclusion that they are NOT equivalent to STP, much less to ETA. You may now begin the process of proving me wrong but don't hold your breath about changing my mind.


The eta design is a proven one. The implementations can vary.

Sellita are not parts compatible with eta in every way. Finishing differs, number of teeth differ.

I look to the eta powermatic 80 variant that shows what the design can deliver when taken to extremes. But I don't mean that to say affordables should have the powermatic 80, only that I like to see what's possible.

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> I think it's just the attitude anyone would have if they don't want to drink the kool aid, especially if that's all you're ever offered.


True, even as a fan I feel worn out for the marketing talk we're feed on a daily basis.

I can easily imagine it may be exhausting to see every single day statements of "reinventing watchmaking", "affordable luxury", "minimalist design". Man, I'm getting upset of just writing that.



vmarks said:


> Sellita are not parts compatible with eta in every way. Finishing differs, number of teeth differ.


IIRC STP-11 and the SW200 are meant to be drop-in replacements for the 2824. They can use the same cases, hand and dials, but the individual components aren't inter changeable.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Commander today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Great read on the last couple of posts, again. But to keep the picture sets flowing...  bluemonday

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Waffle dial in the morning sun:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> Waffle dial in the morning sun


I love the smell of waffles in the morning.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

And here is today's wearable until mail arrives later this week.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

applejosh said:


> Sig:
> I need a magic watchbox that only reveals itself when my wife isn't looking...


I have one of those. It's called my desk drawer at work.

Comes with cigars, too.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Snowflake hands with round markers? Must mean the 'Cuda prototype has landed!










It's times like these that Docvail becomes a royal pain in the you-know-what. I had the Squale 20 Atmos Root Beer - it was my first post-WUS watch. I sold it to fund an Orthos and got over "the loss" after several weeks. I was perfectly content being root-beer-less. And now this.










SOB, it's good. Squale who? Not even in the same ballpark as the Nth. The steel insert is hard to capture with the iPhone 6. The color changes subtly at different angles but somehow works with the dial at any angle. If anyone is on the fence or needs a root beer in his/her collection, go to the Janis website and click the preorder link.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## larkja (Mar 29, 2016)

Does anybody know if Doc is planning on an Omega 2254 homage? I just picked up a couple NTHs (Amphion Dark Gilt and blue modern Nacken). Been an Omega guy for a while, but I find I wear my other tool watches more because I don't want to ruin my Omega (currently sporting a 2531). I was going to PM him, but that feature is disabled.

Thanks


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)




----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Whoa, you just blew my mind!


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Slant said:


>


Pretty lame homage. Orthos all the way.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

applejosh said:


> Pretty lame homage. Orthos all the way.


A thread relevant to the foregoing with some interesting comments and observations:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/got-f71-commander-watch-well-now-omega-does-4481903.html

Chow,

Alan


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Mil6161 said:


> Commander today


How do you people keep your watches so pristine and spotless? TELL ME YOUR WAYS.

I'll post a picture later, but my Commander looks like it went through a war, a couple of weeks ago I went kayaking and did a huge scratch on the bezel and the lume pip fell off.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Pato_Lucas said:


> How do you people keep your watches so pristine and spotless? TELL ME YOUR WAYS.
> 
> I'll post a picture later, but my Commander looks like it went through a war, a couple of weeks ago I went kayaking and did a huge scratch on the bezel and the lume pip fell off.


I think that you answered your own question right there Pato_Lucas, go to war with your watch and you can expect to accumulate a few scars that even a bathing of Cape Cod medicine will fail to heal. Sorry to hear about the damage to your Commander tho'.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



larkja said:


> Does anybody know if Doc is planning on an Omega 2254 homage? I just picked up a couple NTHs (Amphion Dark Gilt and blue modern Nacken). Been an Omega guy for a while, but I find I wear my other tool watches more because I don't want to ruin my Omega (currently sporting a 2531). I was going to PM him, but that feature is disabled.
> 
> Thanks












Edit - sorry, I just saw that the 2254 isn't the PO I thought it was.

After the Planet Ocean, the 2254 is my next favorite Omega, and the best of the SMPs, in my opinion.










I don't have any plans to do an homage of it. The Commander 300 project was a little closer.

There's a new micro starting up with a similar design. There's a thread about it going on over in F74. I'll see if I can grab a link and a pic.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Edit - sorry, I just saw that the 2254 isn't the PO I thought it was.
> 
> After the Planet Ocean, the 2254 is my next favorite Omega, and the best of the SMPs, in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Here we go.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=4389986










New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Nth Barracuda Prototype - it doesn't get much better than this...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Even looks good under fluorescent light!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of the NE88 - this is interesting:

https://www.hemelwatches.com/products/hemel-hft20-available-july-11?variant=46234790227

Choice of meca-quartz or the NE88 automatic movement, 100m / 10 ATM WR, 42mm x 49mm x 16mm (flat crystal) w/ 20mm lugs, and choice of bezel (GMT, 60-min, or un-metered), with a traditional type 20 aviator look about it, from Hemel.















I can't say I know him very well, but I've met brand owner Marvin Menke once, at the DC microbrands meetup the Time Bum organized last fall, and traded some messages with him since then. He strikes me as a good guy, sincere/earnest, etc.

The auto NE88 is apparently going to sell for $999 (which seems like the right price to me, if not a bit of a bargain), but pre-orders are $569.99 until August 11.

The mecaquartz is $449.99, but $269.40 in pre-order, until August 11.

I don't know much else about it, so don't ask me what the bezel insert is made of, how many clicks it has, or how the lume is, but I do see some interesting details, like the bezel triangle color-matched to the seconds hand, the trumpet crown, and the engraved pushers. Strap looks high-quality, too, judging by the pics.

Anyone who missed out on the HKEd Bundeswhehr forum project may want to give one of these a good look.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> Speaking of the NE88 - this is interesting:
> 
> https://www.hemelwatches.com/products/hemel-hft20-available-july-11?variant=46234790227
> 
> ...


Came across these on IG and just wanted to investigate further  thanks for your input

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Oberon










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ShoreFire77 (Apr 27, 2015)

Posted this in Heads Up! last night but thought I'd drop it here too. Seems like a bargain to me...









https://thegang.com/collections/watches


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Great deals!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ks6177 said:


> Posted this in Heads Up! last night but thought I'd drop it here too. Seems like a bargain to me...
> 
> View attachment 12343507
> 
> ...





Keeper of Time said:


> Great deals!


Uhm....yeah.

Little bit of a mis-fire there on the comms with Watchgang. That's not right, and they just pulled the listings down.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Yikes, sorry to hear that Doc. I just figured they had leftover inventory from the monthly subs and this is how they were disposing of them. Sounds like that was not kosher.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> Yikes, sorry to hear that Doc. I just figured they had leftover inventory from the monthly subs and this is how they were disposing of them. Sounds like that was not kosher.


Nope, nothing going on that would reflect poorly on either company. Like I said, we had a miscommunication, nothing more. It was an innocent mistake.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Something new in the mail...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Now *that's* orange!


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> Now *that's* orange!


Unabashedly so...I like it!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

One landing page to rule them all...

Brands - NTH - DevilRay - Janis Trading Company


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Looks very good! Already looking forward to September/October.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

docvail said:


> Speaking of the NE88 - this is interesting:
> 
> View attachment 12341633


Interesting indeed. Finally another NE88 watch that isn't a racing theme watch.

I had the Moto Koure for a little bit (didn't bond with it) but the NE88 performed solidly.

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Fabulous!! however, any suggestions for matching an appropriate speargun with the blue dial? b-)

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Mmm... Vanilla










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Mint









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

Damn, I should have worn my mint today.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

tslewisz said:


> Damn, I should have worn my mint today.


Yep. All the cool kids are doin it :-!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Wore my Vanilla yesterday, that count? :-d

View attachment 12346332


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Oh, FFS. And I've been so disciplined in my watch buying so far this year, too. Why do you tempt me?!?!?


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Azores in the evening:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Blue Amphion Vintage prototype has arrived and I am loving it. I will be taking this with me to Malaga next week.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> Blue Amphion Vintage prototype has arrived and I am loving it. I will be taking this with me to Malaga next week.


Malaka?

I don't think I want my watch going there.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orthos ii mod









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

The OG









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

OG indeed. I know the backstory on the issues Doc had with these movements and why he doesn't want to do another chrono, but... damn.



EL_GEEk said:


> The OG
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

EL_GEEk said:


> The OG


Without jumping up to look at mine, I don't recall that band being the one that came with it. What band IS IT please? It looks great!

And, the stupid question: What's "OG" in this context?


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

fearlessleader said:


> Without jumping up to look at mine, I don't recall that band being the one that came with it. What band IS IT please? It looks great!
> 
> And, the stupid question: What's "OG" in this context?


The strap is from Stone Creek Leathers, thank you @HWA

OG





"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

After a weekend of nailing down flooring, it's nice to just chill and take a few pics of the Barracuda prototype.




























Photobomb by the five year old. 










And of course a wrist shot:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

EL_GEEk said:


> The strap is from Stone Creek Leathers, thank you @HWA


I guess you mean Stone Creek Straps... They look very very nice, and way out of my price range.

Thanks for the cute explanation of OG. I thought you meant "OP" and mis-typed it


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> After a weekend of nailing down flooring, it's nice to just chill and take a few pics of the Barracuda prototype.


Very very nice. And the fact that you unscrewed the crown with your bare toes is amazing!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

So...adding to the recent discussion about movements...

Ronda announced their new automatic caliber at Baselworld in March 2016. At the September show in Hong Kong, 6 months later, they still weren't able to give us pricing or availability. When I asked when they'd be able to deliver in volume, I was given a tentative, "one year".

Not long after Baselworld this year, there was a discussion on the microbrands group on FB, in which another startup microbrand smugly contradicted me when I said Ronda was still "vaporware" - a product which didn't yet exist, and so didn't yet deserve to be in the conversation.

He was adamant that the product did exist, and they were in the mix, because they just talked about it again at Baselworld, so OBVIOUSLY the product is real.

I mean, why else talk about it (I guess)?

I sent an inquiry into Ronda that day, back in March/April. Still waiting on a response.

Well, it seems my guy at the factory had a meeting with Ronda this week, and got them on the record. It seems I was correct - they weren't yet ready to quote pricing or deliver in volume at Basel this year, even though they'd announced it a year prior.

But, good news*, *it seems like they are preparing to have a first batch released late this year, with a larger production beginning early next year.

Specs are in the right range - 28.8k BPH, 40 hour PR, possibly some other nice features. I'll post a pic below.

Pricing, if what I'm told is true, is also in the right range, as I'd been hoping/anticipating.

In my opinion, this is big news.

It's not that I'm excited to use Ronda movements. I may or may not use them. I'll have to see how it goes. But it's another entrant in the entry-level Swiss movement competition, and more competition hopefully means better pricing, better service, better quality control, better support for the repairs network, etc.

Not only does this put pressure on ETA, Sellita, Eterna and Soprod, it also keeps STP honest, and (hopefully) puts pressure on Miyota, and maybe Seiko, both of whom have been slacking lately. It may also put pressure on Horage, if they want to be in that entry-level range.

Things just got a little more interesting.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

That sounds like good news. Thinks it's too much to wish that they'll make a GMT? 

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> That sounds like good news. Thinks it's too much to wish that they'll make a GMT?
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


Funny you ask...

Last week, I asked STP if they'd make a GMT. I believe they could.

One of the ETA GMT calibres is a modified version of one with a day/date complication, where they convert the day of the week display to the GMT hand.

STP also has a day/date, so why not? I specifically referenced the ETA modified GMT calibre in my inquiry.

Their response was strange. They said they had no plans, because in their view, GMT was a low demand complication.

Uhm...really?

I suppose you could argue that the relative demand for GMTs is low - relative to the demand for basic 3-handers. If that's all they made, I'd understand their position.

But it's not all they make. Not only do they also make a day/date, but they've got at least 4 or 5 other odd-ball configurations that you almost never see outside of the el-cheapo faux chronos from mushroom brands. It's all wacky triple dates, date pointers, and power reserves, with crowns and pushers jutting out every which way. Who's demanding that crap?

My suspicion is that STP bought out the whole design catalog from a Chinese manufacturer, lock, stock, and a barrel of lo mein, then went about improving everything and making it all in Switzerland. It's hard for me to fathom how their product range could have grown into what it is organically, if it was all dreamt up in Switzerland. It just doesn't make sense.

But, that's Switzerland for you.

As for Ronda, it's taken them two years to get from "we're making an automatic!" to "we're making an automatic! No, really! Here it is!"

I haven't heard anyone suggest it's actually a Swissified version of a Chinese or Japanese calibre (the way people talk about Soprod and Tag), so until we know otherwise, my assumption is it's a ground-up new design, and it's taken them a looooonnnnnnggggg time to get this far, with just the one, basic 3-hand calibre.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on a GMT.

Did I mention I could freaking own the Swiss watch industry before the end of the decade if someone would just be so kind as to drop a few million dollars and a dozen solid people off at my office?

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^^^I'm not joking or exaggerating. If someone out there has a few million dollars and wants to dominate the watch industry within a decade, look me up. I'll be your Huckleberry. I've got the gray matter and the will power. I just need the cash.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Look at this. It makes me want to cry. They'll make these, but not a GMT (don't even get me started about a chrono)...

Open heart at 12. Why?










Date pointer at 12, small seconds at 9, pr at 6, pusher at 10:30...










Small seconds, pr meter, day of the week, and whatever the hell that retrograde crap at 12 is...










Small seconds, date pointer, day of the week, pr meter, and day-night indicator. Plus, we've added a pusher, not at 4:30, directly across from the one at 10:30, oh, no. This one's at 4, because your OCD isn't already going bonkers. Telling time is just a bonus function, at this point...










Regulateur, with pr meter...










Only Seiko could out-why these guys...










I know that feel, Seiko. I'm sad, too...

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Not quite as godawful as that Seiko, Doc, but I had this Timex a few years back. Seagull something or other inside. Prolly where Seiko got the idea.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Not quite as godawful as that Seiko, Doc, but I had this Timex a few years back. Seagull something or other inside. Prolly where Seiko got the idea.


Yeah, that movement was in A LOT of mushroom brands a few years back. I think it was even the basis of a handful of Terry Alison scams on Kickstarter.

I guess the logic is the more complicated it looks, the more expensive/impressive it will seem to noobs, which is why I'm sucking wind making 3-handers for the WIS, while the guys behind Xeric are rolling in Ferraris making those Xeriscopes, or whatever those things are called.

True Story - I read some blog post, maybe in ABTW, where they interviewed those guys behind online boutique "Watchismo" (now called watches.com, same guys behind Xeric). The one guy essentially said it was a one-stop-destination for weird yet affordable watches. I remember thinking, "you misspelled 'cheap and ugly'," but the truth is there's SOOOOO much more money in making cheap, ugly watches for the masses than there is trying to please the hyper-critical WIS.

I'm sure those guys don't give a crap what WIS think (or what I think), and are laughing all the way to the bank, just like Eyal from Invicta, and the guys behind all the crap that gets slung about on Evine, or wherever crap is being slung these days.

If I sound jealous, I am. I wish I had it in me to make something so hideous it would raise a million dollars on Kickstarter. You'd never see me here again. I just don't have it in me, unfortunately.

So you all are stuck with me.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Mint Azores today











Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


> Mint Azores today
> 
> 
> 
> ...


^^^Only a true WIS matches his bed-linens to his watch.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> ^^^Only a true WIS matches his bed-linens to his watch.


I did this once with my shoes and my lumes. Proof on IG. Does that count as well? Maybe not, it wasn't a janistrading product 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

That's all too metro-sexual for me.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Lume!!!!!!!

Really enjoying wearing the NTH Amphion vintage blue prototype over the last few days. The lume is great and really glows even in the shadows.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> Lume!!!!!!!
> 
> Really enjoying wearing the NTH Amphion vintage blue prototype over the last few days. The lume is great and really glows even in the shadows.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In the shadows is where it's supposed to glow.

Just sayin'...

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Looking at the Seiko and weird STP movements, that's what happens when you put a Jspanese car designer on the design team. On japanese cars, the taillights all look like smiley or frowny faces. The seiko looks like a frowning chameleon, that regulator looks like steampunk Pinocchio. Who cares if WIS don't need them, the masses will feel happy looking at their watches, and subliminally crave watching a cartoon.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

My Helson may have brighter lume, but the blue lume is better to look at!


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Probably the best looking watch in my collection









Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

ConfusedOne said:


> My Helson may have brighter lume, but the blue lume is better to look at!


Wait a minute... Someone has better lume than Doc? No Way!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone looking for a Commander 300?

NOT my listing - Lew & Huey Orthos Commander 300 black no date, Ltd. Edition | eBay


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


> Orthos ii mod
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chris, in about three seconds, someone on Facebook is going to ask me where you got those hands. Care to share?

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Chris, in about three seconds, someone on Facebook is going to ask me where you got those hands. Care to share?
> 
> New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


No....
.....just kidding... yobokies...if I remember correctly

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Mil6161 said:


> No....
> .....just kidding... yobokies...if I remember correctly
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Cheers. There's a guy in the UK who has five of them, including a modded black/orange Orthos I, a Commander 300, and a purple Orthos II. Now he's looking to mod one with arrow hands.

He's got it bad.

PS/Edit - Next time someone quotes your wrist shot, and asks you where you got those hands, "from my mom" is also an acceptable answer.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Potential NTH owner here. 
I'm considering the Näcken. It seems to have many of the features I'm looking for.

I have come so far that I want to single out a specific model/color. Based on pictures my favorites are vintage black and the blue models, but I have a hard time finding the difference (s) between vintage blue and modern blue. The vintage seem to have more structure on the dial. Are there other differences?

I also got a JT coupon code on twitter, but the text was styled like a personal email i.e. stating the code 
was personal. Will this code work or is it received in error?

Sorry for all the questions, but living in Norway, making bad decisions when buying from abroad tends to get quite expensive.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

I have the vintage blue and am always pondering on the edge for the modern blue. Only reason I don't buy is, it would cannibalize my vintage blue. Possible solution: get the vintage black  


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> Potential NTH owner here.
> I'm considering the Näcken. It seems to have many of the features I'm looking for.
> 
> I have come so far that I want to single out a specific model/color. Based on pictures my favorites are vintage black and the blue models, but I have a hard time finding the difference (s) between vintage blue and modern blue. The vintage seem to have more structure on the dial. Are there other differences?
> ...


No pressure, but whichever version of the Näcken you're interested in, you should get it soon, as we've only got 6 pieces left of either version, and prices go up again on 7 August.

*EDIT* - Correction on the above, we've got 6 of the Modern Blue left, but only 5 of the Vintage Black. Of the 7 versions currently in pre-order, we've only got 65 pieces left available, in total - it's single-digit availability on most of them.

There are several differences between the Modern Blue and Vintage Blue versions:

Dial - Modern is flat/matte, no texture. Vintage is rough, "sandpaper" texture.

Hands - the frames of the hands on the Modern are all white. The frames on the Vintage are brushed steel.

Hour indices - the indices on the Modern are applied pieces, raised from the dial, framed in white. The Vintage has printed indices.

Lume colors - the Modern is all BG W9 Superluminova, which appears pure white, and glows blue. The Vintage has "Natural" (very pale yellow) lume on the dial and hands, with C3 lume on the bezel.

I don't know for sure if I'll make more of any of the existing Subs models. If I do, I don't know how many more I'll make of either of the blue Näckens.

People have asked me to make more of the Näcken Modern, so I probably will make more of that version, but I think we've satisfied market demand for all the other versions, and so I'll likely look to do mostly all-new versions in future production runs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Something we've had in the pipeline for a little while, but "flying under the radar" - a new version of the Spectre (the "Spectre II").

Same case size/shape, and all the same specs as the original Spectre - 44mm x 48mm x 15mm, w/ 22mm lugs, 200m WR, Seiko NH35 automatic, screw-down crown at 4, domed AR sapphire crystal, and "Sparky" etched on the caseback.

Features -


Choice of two dial colors, matte black or sunray blue.
Both with optional date/no-date at 3 (white date wheel only).
If we can make it work, an H-link bracelet, the same one used on the Cerberus, but with a flared end-link to match the Spectre's case.
Both dials will have the choice of yellow or orange seconds hand. Black will have the additional choice of a light blue seconds hand.
Both dials will have the hour/minute hands and markers lumed with BG W9 Superluminova.
Final assembly in the USA.
Limited edition of 250 pieces, so each combination of dial color, date/no-date, seconds hand color will be made in very small numbers.
Planned pricing is $500. I don't know what the pre-order price will be. Since we'll be making everything to order, it'll probably be $500.

All the prototype parts are done, and here in the US. We hope to have prototypes assembled before the end of this month, or early next month, start pre-orders soon after that, and be able to start shipping on them sometime this fall, in time for the end-of-year Holidays.

ILLUSTRATIONS:









RANGE OF SECONDS HAND COLORS (BLUE DIAL WILL NOT BE OFFERED WITH BLUE SECONDS HANDS, BECAUSE THAT'S SILLY):









PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE DIALS (HARD TO BELIEVE THE FACTORY DOESN'T CHARGE ME EXTRA FOR PICS THIS AWESOME):









THIS IS NOT HOW THE FINISHED END-LINK WILL BE FINISHED. THIS WAS A 3D-PRINTED PIECE, MADE FOR A TEST-FIT WITH THE CASE, SHOWN HERE JUST TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA HOW THE ACTUAL END-LINK WILL LOOK:

















*Yes, before anyone asks, I realize I'll likely be overlapping pre-orders.

**No, I don't know if this or that model will be delivered before we start pre-orders on some other model. I've posted the target dates for whatever's in pre-order on the site, I don't have them memorized, and even if I did, they're subject to change. You can look them up, look at a calendar, and figure it out.

***No, I don't plan to tie myself in knots trying to figure out how to alleviate the pain of not having rewards points from one pre-order available to use on another pre-order.

****In fact, I may be doing another pre-order for the next batch of Subs before the end of the year (but don't ask me what versions will be made, because I won't say, and God help you if you email me to suggest something - I won't be held responsible for the aftermath), and if I can make it happen, possibly another new model under the NTH brand.

*****I may have a dozen pre-orders going at once for the next dozen years. I may be sold out of everything tomorrow. YOLO.

******You'll have to manage the ordeal of figuring out what you really want to buy, and how to pay for it, somehow. I have faith in you.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

^^I'm going to need a bigger watch box...

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

^^Sorry kids, it's community collage for you.

Vailcheron Christantin has acquired all the watch companies in this timeline. Like in Demolition Man where all restaurants are Taco Bells except for watches. All watch funds are belong to Doc.

(yes, vague reference is vague)



Disneydave said:


> ^^I'm going to need a bigger watch box...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## awrose (Aug 12, 2015)

If it's a spectre, shouldn't it have guns?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_AC-130#/media/File:AC-130U_Line_Drawing.svg


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> ^^Sorry kids, it's community collage for you.
> 
> Vailcheron Christantin has acquired all the watch companies in this timeline. Like in Demolition Man where all restaurants are Taco Bells except for watches. All watch funds are belong to Doc.
> 
> (yes, vague reference is vague)


Heh. Community 'collage'.

Ironic typo is ironic.

New Tapatalk Ultra gives you the same great talk but with only 98 calories per tapping.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> Something we've had in the pipeline for a little while, but "flying under the radar" - a new version of the Spectre (the "Spectre II").


Looks very nice. I got the original KS version... at the time I was a newbie and went "safe" for the black dial. Nice indeed, but now I'd probably have gone with the orange. The new blue is very nice even if it won't have a blue second hand. I don't see why not, heck I've seen some stealth watches were everything seems to be black -- the numbers, the hands, everything -- so a blue-on-blue doesn't sound THAT weird.

(fixed typo)


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Thank you for the thorough reply Doc.

As I wrote, I have to (as far as possible) try to make a good decision. I know the game, so I understand there will be other temptations along the way, and that I'll most likely will upgrade at some point. I'm just trying to avoid the expensive game of buying wrong. So even if NTH is very high up on my list of candidates, I need to be careful.

BTW: you didn't comment on the coupon code. Is it real? I don't think it will affect my choice, because it's only valid until the 22nd, but it's nice to know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

fearlessleader said:


> Looks very nice. I got the original KS version... at the time I was a newbie and went "safe" for the black dial. Nice indeed, but now I'd probably have gone with the orange. The new blue is very nice even if it won't have a blue second hand. I don't see why not, heck I've seen some stealth watches were everything seems to be black -- the numbers, the hands, everything -- so a blue-on-blue doesn't sound THAT weird.
> 
> (fixed typo)


I'll trade you for the orange.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I'm glad to see Doc's plan for world domination is proceeding apace! CEOs of Swiss companies should be quaking in their Bruno Maglis!


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

NTH Amphion vintage blue prototype in da house!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> Thank you for the thorough reply Doc.
> 
> As I wrote, I have to (as far as possible) try to make a good decision. I know the game, so I understand there will be other temptations along the way, and that I'll most likely will upgrade at some point. I'm just trying to avoid the expensive game of buying wrong. So even if NTH is very high up on my list of candidates, I need to be careful.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I overlooked the question about the code. If it came from me, it's real.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Glow

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

I am beyond pumped about the Blue Spectre. I can just see it on my wrist with a brown leather strap. Thank you Doc!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

A close look at the texture in the center of the Azores Vanilla. So good.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Hey all - if anyone has one of the "Black Tie" Cerebus watches that isn't getting enough wrist time, please PM me. You know I will give it a good home . Thanks!


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Something we've had in the pipeline for a little while, but "flying under the radar" - a new version of the Spectre (the "Spectre II").


Some unexpected and cool revelations leave you


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Also, DevilRay...
> 
> A sneak peek at the upcoming NTH DevilRay (part one...) - Janis Trading Company


I've been away a long time but I caught up on the devil ray blog after getting your newsletter (well randomly remembered the newsletter, found a link here, and then read it). I think you are my hero now for this line


> And make precisely this many removable links on each side, with this many fixed links, so the bracelet can be sized by anyone with a wrist from 6" to 9".Know what? Screw it. Make them all removable. Five-inch wrists need love too!


I'll be there pre order day for a turquois and if you need a local small wrist model after the prototypes come in I'm available


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Barracuda prototype - the dust will cost you extra.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

NTH Amphion vintage blue prototype on a super soft and comfortable brown leather strap.



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> NTH Amphion vintage blue prototype on a super soft and comfortable brown leather strap.


I keep looking for interesting, nice, and yet affordable leather straps... What's this one that you're using please?


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

fearlessleader said:


> I keep looking for interesting, nice, and yet affordable leather straps... What's this one that you're using please?


Truth be told I was given this strap and so I have no idea where it came from. It does have "jf" on the buckle if that helps.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

CMA22inc said:


> Vailcheron Christantin has acquired all the watch companies in this timeline. Like in Demolition Man where all restaurants are Taco Bells except for watches.


For some reason Vailcheron Christantin sounds better than the current naming line up, maybe the exception being NTH.


----------



## Trango (Mar 1, 2014)

fearlessleader said:


> I keep looking for interesting, nice, and yet affordable leather straps... What's this one that you're using please?


Looks like it may be JF Leather Goods


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Just want to share that doc has ruined me in terms of judging watches with hands that don't touch the minute track. Never used to bother me or really notice it until he pointed it out a long while ago. Now I can't unsee it on watches that I used to love.


----------



## larkja (Mar 29, 2016)

Love the look of the new Devil Ray but...

The thing that drew me to the brand was the smaller case sizes and thinner profiles. The DR seems to depart from this (43mm and 14mm thick). I sold my Pelagos because I didn't like the dimensions. Hope doc will continue to develop the smaller, thinner divers.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



larkja said:


> Love the look of the new Devil Ray but...
> 
> The thing that drew me to the brand was the smaller case sizes and thinner profiles. The DR seems to depart from this (43mm and 14mm thick). I sold my Pelagos because I didn't like the dimensions. Hope doc will continue to develop the smaller, thinner divers.


1. Some of my customers (or potential customers) have bigger wrists. I frequently get requests for a 44mm version of the subs, or just "anything bigger than 42mm".

Sometimes I make smaller models. Sometimes I make larger models.

2. It's 43mm from 9 to 3, but only 46mm lug to lug. That's short. It's not all about case width. In fact, how a watch fits is more about the lug length than the diameter.

3. Guess what the bezel diameter is? 40mm, EXACTLY the same as the NTH subs, which actually have a thinner bezel, and thus a larger dial.

It's a turtle case. Making the width smaller would shrink the dial, making it harder to read, and if we wanted 500m WR (which we did), it would force even chunkier proportions on us.

It'd be a super chunky lady diver. And I don't have many lady divers as customers, super chunky or otherwise.

4. 14mm isn't that thick, all things considered. All things being not just the thickness of the movement and the WR, but also the shape of the case, and how thick so many other divers are.

That 14mm includes the domed crystal (something many of my competitors don't include in their case thickness dimensions). Back that out, it's under 12.5mm. It also includes the case back. Back that out, it's 10.5mm. Just looking at the case walls and bezel, which is really the thickness everyone perceives, it's 9.5mm.

It's as thin as we could make it, and I did what I could to shape the case in such a way that it seems less thick.

5. It's our "ultimate diver". It's not meant to be a versatile piece that will easily slip under your cuff. Want one of those? Buy an NTH Sub, an Acionna, or a Cerberus. The thickest among them is just 12mm, and two are 40mm wide.

6. NTH was never about making things smaller, it's about vintage inspiration.

The original MilSubs were 37mm. The NTH Subs are 40mm.

The original IWC Aquatimer that inspired the Antilles was 36mm. The Tropics are 40mm.

The DevilRay was largely inspired by the vintage Cetina DS-3 ph1000m. It was 44mm across and a whopping 18mm thick.

The DevilRay IS a departure, but not because it's "bigger". If anything, the DevilRay is dainty by comparison to its vintage inspiration. If I was following a pattern, I should have made it 50mm wide and 20mm thick.


----------



## ChiefWahoo (Jul 4, 2011)

And I'd have purchased all four.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

While I can understand wanting a watch that fits one's needs, Chris needs to look for his needs from a business perspective. He is making a decision which he thinks is best for his business. I personally will be trying to get in on the pre-order (a first for me) because I do like the design/size. Also, having now 3 docvail productions, I know it will be a quality piece. This more than anything will propel me to a pre-order. He's made me a believer. (And apologies Chris, my last L&H purchase was made through a reseller instead of direct because you only have Cerberus available on the other side of the pond. But I'm assuming it counted as a sale nonetheless since it was a retailer I believe you have/had an official relationship with.)


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

larkja said:


> Love the look of the new Devil Ray but...
> 
> The thing that drew me to the brand was the smaller case sizes and thinner profiles. The DR seems to depart from this (43mm and 14mm thick). I sold my Pelagos because I didn't like the dimensions. Hope doc will continue to develop the smaller, thinner divers.


I thought similarly when I first saw the case dimensions but after looking at the tiny lug to lug, the amount of tapering that is going on with the case, and the percentage of that diameter that is taken up by bezel I'm no longer worried. I won't be surprised if the devil ray ends up wearing smaller than my maratac mid pilot since the pilot is generally on a nato and has minimal case tapering.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

ryan92084 said:


> I thought similarly when I first saw the case dimensions but after looking at the tiny lug to lug, the amount of tapering that is going on with the case, and the percentage of that diameter that is taken up by bezel I'm no longer worried. I won't be surprised if the devil ray ends up wearing smaller than my maratac mid pilot since the pilot is generally on a nato and has minimal case tapering.


It'll wear smaller than the Seiko Turtle, that's for sure.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChiefWahoo said:


> And I'd have purchased all four.


Bears run away from you.



applejosh said:


> While I can understand wanting a watch that fits one's needs, Chris needs to look for his needs from a business perspective. He is making a decision which he thinks is best for his business. I personally will be trying to get in on the pre-order (a first for me) because I do like the design/size. Also, having now 3 docvail productions, I know it will be a quality piece. This more than anything will propel me to a pre-order. He's made me a believer. (And apologies Chris, my last L&H purchase was made through a reseller instead of direct because you only have Cerberus available on the other side of the pond. But I'm assuming it counted as a sale nonetheless since it was a retailer I believe you have/had an official relationship with.)


I do have one gray/red Cerberus available here. I may need to correct the website.



ryan92084 said:


> I thought similarly when I first saw the case dimensions but after looking at the tiny lug to lug, the amount of tapering that is going on with the case, and the percentage of that diameter that is taken up by bezel I'm no longer worried. I won't be surprised if the devil ray ends up wearing smaller than my maratac mid pilot since the pilot is generally on a nato and has minimal case tapering.


I think it'll wear bigger than the Maratac.



Pato_Lucas said:


> It'll wear smaller than the Seiko Turtle, that's for sure.


I'm sure it'll wear smaller than the Seiko Turtle.

You need Wahoo wrists for one of those.

One bottle of all-new Tapatalk in your car's fuel tank will safely clean your injectors, increasing both performance and efficiency.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> I do have one gray/red Cerberus available here. I may need to correct the website.


Well, too late for me, but it is a very nice watch that I can easily wear in "business casual plus" situations. Still got the thank you card and "gift" with it. Assuming it was legit (Long Island Watch). I would have ordered direct if I thought it was possible (and not only because you list it cheaper  ).


----------



## larkja (Mar 29, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> 1. Some of my customers (or potential customers) have bigger wrists. I frequently get requests for a 44mm version of the subs, or just "anything bigger than 42mm".
> 
> Sometimes I make smaller models. Sometimes I make larger models.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the additional information. Didn't realize the crystal sits 1.5mm above the bezel. And yes, that 46mm L to L is very nice  I'll be keeping an eye on this one and look forward to seeing a wrist shot. BTW, I already purchased a couple of your NTHs - the Amphion and Nacken. They haven't arrived yet, but am looking forward to test driving them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



larkja said:


> Thank you for the additional information. Didn't realize the crystal sits 1.5mm above the bezel. And yes, that 46mm L to L is very nice  I'll be keeping an eye on this one and look forward to seeing a wrist shot. BTW, I already purchased a couple of your NTHs - the Amphion and Nacken. They haven't arrived yet, but am looking forward to test driving them.


You can see my original case drawings here - A sneak peek at the upcoming NTH DevilRay (part three...) - Janis Trading Company.

The final version is very slightly different, but not enough that you'd notice.

As drawn, the domed crystal is 1.56mm. Add the 0.72mm slope of the bezel insert, there's 2.28mm of thickness you aren't likely to notice. The caseback is another 1.96mm, but it's partially obscured by the downward curve of the lugs, so there's about 4.25mm of thickness that you're not likely to "feel" when it's on the wrist.

I'm not saying it's really 9.75mm, or that it'll feel like it, but I am saying it's not going to feel all of 14mm - maybe more like 13mm, but c'mon, that's how thick the Orthos is, and don't even get me started on the pot-belly Planet Ocean (15.7mm), or the 14.65mm-thick Omega Seamaster 300 co-axial.

I just compared the case cutaway diagram of the DevilRay to the Subs. Crystal size and dial opening are precisely the same. The dial on the DevilRay may actually look smaller, due to the sloped chapter ring and depth gauge. It'll wear bigger than the Subs, because of the case width and thickness, but it will still be very wearable.

For comparison, the Doxa 1200t is 42.7mm x 44.6mm x 14.4mm with 20mm lugs. The case is also pretty flat across the bottom, has a raised, "pot-lid" bezel with a flat surface, and a bulging caseback. It wears kinda-but-not-too-chunky (yes, I've tried one on - my old watchmaker had one). But you don't hear anyone complaining about it, because, I guess, "Doxa".









The DevilRay is 0.3mm wider, 1.4mm longer, but 0.38mm thinner (it's actually 14.02mm, not precisely 14mm), with a curved bottom and a recessed bezel with a sloped surface (and wider lugs). It's going to wear A LOT differently. Chunky, but hopefully, still sleek, in its own way:









And, just for gits and shiggles, that big-stack DS-3:


----------



## larkja (Mar 29, 2016)

I didn't notice the bezel shroud before. That's a great design element.

Thanks again for all of the additional information. Really like the orange and sunburst black dials


----------



## ChiefWahoo (Jul 4, 2011)

docvail said:


> I'm sure it'll wear smaller than the Seiko Turtle.
> 
> You need Wahoo wrists for one of those.


Well, crap. The turtle is a little too small, even the newer SRP one. Seems passable on bracelet, but I don't think it's long for the collection.

On the other hand, came across these beauties while I was cleaning out the digital photo album. . .


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

due to obvious reasons I deliver the matchy-matchy shot 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

ChiefWahoo said:


> Well, crap. The turtle is a little too small, even the newer SRP one. Seems passable on bracelet, but I don't think it's long for the collection.
> 
> On the other hand, came across these beauties while I was cleaning out the digital photo album. . .
> 
> View attachment 12372543


I'd still wait for protos and release before deciding (which I know you will), but this illustrates why the discussion of ,"why does doc do X?", or, "why doesn't doc do Y?" is so polarizing......

Law of Thirds, my friend......Law of Thirds.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

NTH Amphion vintage blue prototype

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I am supper stoked. Just got my shipping confirmation for my first Doc watch. I was drinking a bit on Saturday, as I usually do on Saturdays but this time it was a local favorite craft beer. I somehow stumbled upon a Spectre orange pic and well....I hope for a new Orange themed watch to wear for Bears training camp.

I think I said on facebook that my next watch I would buy would be a Doc watch. I was almost correct and to tell you the truth, It has been bugging me that I got a Hammy before a Doc EVEN thou I have wanted a Hammy for a few years. Now I feel complete....
I mean DOC!!! 
YOU COMPLETE ME BRO!!!! 
You make me want to be a better WUSer!! lmao


----------



## larkja (Mar 29, 2016)

GlenRoiland said:


> but this illustrates why the discussion of ,"why does doc do X?", or, "why doesn't doc do Y?" is so polarizing......


Not sure it's polarizing, just different strokes for different folks. In business/sales, there's a different formula we use, but very similar. Take 10 people in your target demographic that are considering your product or service. Two will always buy, and two will never buy. It's the six in the middle we're working on - and it scales. So three is easier than four, is easier than five, etc. The trick is, as a business, how much money do I want to spend to capture numbers six and seven, and maybe eight, or do I just spend my resources on the first five or six, and if I get seven and/or eight, that's a bonus?

I think these discussions are very helpful, because if I hadn't posted, I probably would have been one of the third that would not have considered this watch. But after doc chimed in and shared some of the dimensions and design elements, I am now in the "might buy" column.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I am supper stoked. Just got my shipping confirmation for my first Doc watch. I was drinking a bit on Saturday, as I usually do on Saturdays but this time it was a local favorite craft beer. I somehow stumbled upon a Spectre orange pic and well....I hope for a new Orange themed watch to wear for Bears training camp.
> 
> I think I said on facebook that my next watch I would buy would be a Doc watch. I was almost correct and to tell you the truth, It has been bugging me that I got a Hammy before a Doc EVEN thou I have wanted a Hammy for a few years. Now I feel complete....
> I mean DOC!!!
> ...


Enjoy. For that extra orange kick, hope you got the orange natural rubber strap. It's darn comfortable, too.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I am not sure I can do that much Orange.



applejosh said:


> Enjoy. For that extra orange kick, hope you got the orange natural rubber strap. It's darn comfortable, too.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I am not sure I can do that much Orange.


You know you want to.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

applejosh said:


> You know you want to.
> 
> View attachment 12374599


Wow!!!! So much......Orange....

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

larkja said:


> Not sure it's polarizing, just different strokes for different folks. In business/sales, there's a different formula we use, but very similar. Take 10 people in your target demographic that are considering your product or service. Two will always buy, and two will never buy. It's the six in the middle we're working on - and it scales. So three is easier than four, is easier than five, etc. The trick is, as a business, how much money do I want to spend to capture numbers six and seven, and maybe eight, or do I just spend my resources on the first five or six, and if I get seven and/or eight, that's a bonus?
> 
> I think these discussions are very helpful, because if I hadn't posted, I probably would have been one of the third that would not have considered this watch. But after doc chimed in and shared some of the dimensions and design elements, I am now in the "might buy" column.



I guess I need to define my understanding of polarizing. I see it as roughly, "to cause (people, opinions, etc.) to separate into differing groups." I don't necessarily think of it as negative, just differing opinions. To quote you, "different strokes for different folks" would be almost exactly my definition of polarizing. Like I said, "Law of Thirds". I think almost ALL discussions are polarizing. Differing opinions. Not necessarily bad, just opposing opinions, that's all.

I didn't mean to suggest we should not have the discussions, just that I find it interesting when people muse on why "so and so" does "something". I do this all the time with my children, encouraging them to create alternative explanations for the same observation. I see these discussions as important for individuals and productive, just interesting from my perspective.

So, when somebody asks why doc is producing a 43 or 44 mm watch, citing the industry leanings, I know there are at least three camps.........

edit..

and I do understand the value of penetrating into and capturing portions of your target market which is why these discussions are so valuable. I hope I didn't suggest they were unnecessary, unwarranted, or undesirable, just polarizing (see my rough definition). People can switch between the groups in the "Thirds", and as a business I'm certain Doc wants as many sane people in the group of "agrees" and neutral than in the "disagrees"...but I, as a business owner, provide the majority of my efforts toward the people already sold on my "product" then try to convert the negative group. I'd rather give my efforts where they are most likely to be successful.

so...I apologize if I did not convey what I had intended..


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Wow!!!! So much......Orange....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Blue rubber strap is also a possibility for the complete Bears color scheme.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Today was a good day...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

NTH Azores day for me









Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> NTH Amphion vintage blue prototype
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is the bezel lume the same colour on the Amphion Vintage Blue as on the original Amphion Vintage?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> Today was a good day...
> 
> View attachment 12376679


Where did you find a Black-Tie Cerb with the crystal protector still on it?


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Where did you find a Black-Tie Cerb with the crystal protector still on it?


Well, they are the "Keeper of Time"...so maybe hoarding?


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Where did you find a Black-Tie Cerb with the crystal protector still on it?


I was going to ask the same damn thing...I regret selling mine...

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> Keeper of Time said:
> 
> 
> > Today was a good day...
> ...


It's used. The seller was just kind enough to add one for shipping.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Mil6161 said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > Where did you find a Black-Tie Cerb with the crystal protector still on it?
> ...


I managed to find a black spectre too!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> I managed to find a black spectre too!


Not quite as rare, but been sold out longer.

Have to say I admire a man with that sort of dogged determination.

One bottle of all-new Tapatalk in your car's fuel tank will safely clean your injectors, increasing both performance and efficiency.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I am not sure I can do that much Orange.


How about lots of blue? Doc's upcoming watch will come in a blue (ish) dial and you can easily get a "matching" band... Is too much blue a problem?


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Oh I intend to grab the blue/turquoise Devil Ray.



fearlessleader said:


> How about lots of blue? Doc's upcoming watch will come in a blue (ish) dial and you can easily get a "matching" band... Is too much blue a problem?


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Icey bluuu









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Some first-pass renders of the DevilRay on its bracelet...


----------



## larkja (Mar 29, 2016)

docvail said:


> Some first-pass renders of the DevilRay on its bracelet...


Will you be offering a rubber strap only option? For me personally, I don't like the weight of the watch head with bracelet and all my watches wear isofranes. Would love to see this as an option.

Thanks


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

No Diggity!!!!



docvail said:


> Some first-pass renders of the DevilRay on its bracelet...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Looks good. And thanks also for the update on the NTH subs.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

So, I get a mysterious email today from Paypal informing me that Janis trading has issued me a partial refund of $80 bucks or so. I was puzzled so I went fishing around in my junk mail and sure enough came across an email from Doc letting me know that because he had just now noticed that I had two separate orders for two different NTH subs (which I had made maybe two months apart, the second one being an impulse buy near Father's day at my wife's behest), he was taking the liberty of combining the two orders and thereby qualifying me for a discount and free shipping on the two orders as though I had made them at the same time. He also advised me not to freak out if I got an email from Paypal about the refund. 

I had neither requested the discount nor considered the possibility of looking into it because the orders were so far apart and knowing what I do about Doc, I didn't think it worth his time or mine to trouble him about it. Didn't matter because Doc did it anyway, unilaterally and voluntarily. 

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen is how you run a successful, customer-oriented business. Because, while I've always appreciated Doc's style and knowledge as periodically displayed on these boards, I'm now happy to say I'm a loyal customer. For life. And another thing. If anybody comes around talking smack about how Doc runs his business, I call bull$*&#. 

Anyway, that's all to say, thanks Doc. You're a mensch.

***

EDIT: I'm going to preemptively caveat this post by saying YMMV and don't go expecting Doc to magically apply discount codes to your orders if you fail to apply for them correctly in the future. All I wanted to say was how awesome it was that he did it for me in this unsolicited and unexpected manner.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Elbakalao said:


> So, I get a mysterious email today from Paypal informing me that Janis trading has issued me a partial refund of $80 bucks or so. I was puzzled so I went fishing around in my junk mail and sure enough came across an email from Doc letting me know that because he had just now noticed that I had two separate orders for two different NTH subs (which I had made maybe two months apart, the second one being an impulse buy near Father's day at my wife's behest), he was taking the liberty of combining the two orders and thereby qualifying me for a discount and free shipping on the two orders as though I had made them at the same time. He also advised me not to freak out if I got an email from Paypal about the refund.
> 
> I had neither requested the discount nor considered the possibility of looking into it because the orders were so far apart and knowing what I do about Doc, I didn't think it worth his time or mine to trouble him about it. Didn't matter because Doc did it anyway, unilaterally and voluntarily.
> 
> ...


You had me at "$*&#".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

larkja said:


> Will you be offering a rubber strap only option? For me personally, I don't like the weight of the watch head with bracelet and all my watches wear isofranes. Would love to see this as an option.
> 
> Thanks


I'll probably be offering rubbers straps as an add-on, but every watch will come with a bracelet.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> I'll probably be offering rubbers straps as an add-on, but every watch will come with a bracelet.


Hallelujah

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Nice leather nato!
What and who please?


uvalaw2005 said:


>


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I should have ordered an extra strap with my Spectre Fireball. But what can you do when you are drinking are trying to order a watch without your Wife knowing.....HAHAHAH!!


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I should have ordered an extra strap with my Spectre Fireball. But what can you do when you are drinking are trying to order a watch without your Wife knowing.....HAHAHAH!!


I managed it without the wife knowing. Although, she noticed after it arrived and was wearing it. Kind of hard to miss.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

HAHAHAH If I tell her she will just say cool.....I just will not tell her the WHOLE price LOL. Also I grabbed the Spectre that is on clearance priced so Ido not feel as bad. SORRY DOC.....but the wallet pays not what my heart wants..bwahaha



applejosh said:


> I managed it without the wife knowing. Although, she noticed after it arrived and was wearing it. Kind of hard to miss.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

CMA22inc said:


> Nice leather nato!
> What and who please?


Cheapest NATO straps; not sure the model even exists anymore I've owned it so long.


----------



## Goodfellas (Dec 19, 2016)

Elbakalao said:


> I had neither requested the discount nor considered the possibility of looking into it because the orders were so far apart and knowing what I do about Doc, I didn't think it worth his time or mine to trouble him about it. Didn't matter because Doc did it anyway, unilaterally and voluntarily.
> 
> And THAT, ladies and gentlemen is how you run a successful, customer-oriented business. Because, while I've always appreciated Doc's style and knowledge as periodically displayed on these boards, I'm now happy to say I'm a loyal customer. For life. And another thing. If anybody comes around talking smack about how Doc runs his business, I call bull$*&#.


And that is the reason (along with a few others) why I wrote my review of another micro-brand! It had far less to do with the watch itself and more to do with the people behind these brands. So maybe I did go on a bit of a rant when I wrote it, but it is simply because Wes, Cullen, and indeed CHRIS changed my buying behavior and the way I approach each new product.

My perspective is simple and can be characterized like this. When you buy a watch from a big player, you're buying a NAME and the idea that they will be around in the future. When you go with a micro-brand, you may get higher specs for comparable money but you may not have the same peace of mind. The problem is that these assumptions are flawed.

There is NO such thing as SECURITY in business. Today you buy a Glycine and tomorrow you own an Invicta for example. In addition, I've never understood where people get this since of security (which I believe to be false btw). I mean, if your Raymond Weil breaks, will Charlize Theron service it? You know the answer and yet RW paid her 3 million dollars to wear Shine watches. Same question of Roger Federer and Rolex or Kate Winslet and Longines.

So what I see are stupid amounts of money being spent by the major watch manufacturers as nothing more than a cash-for-credibility scheme. A TERRIBLE business model if you ask me but I guess that it must work on enough people to sustain itself.

We then expect (like it's some sort of birthright) for micros (who don't have the added margins provided by the scale of operations) to give us more value for money. YES, I want the sapphire crystal... YES, I expect upgraded lume... How DARE YOU offer me the same specs as the Seiko and charge the same price.

It's highly doubtful that the same thing will happen in the watch business but how many times have you seen your options as a consumer reduced by mergers & acquisitions? How many ISPs did there used to be, or video rental stores (if you're old enough to remember). How about telephone companies, cable TV services, automobile manufacturers, banks, airline carriers, etc, etc, etc.

Now, I say that this is not likely to happen to this industry but let me clarify something. I don't see it happening through buyouts like the industries above. BUT, I CAN see it happening as a result of micro-brands reaching a point where they are no longer able to offer more for less. At a certain point, a business ceases to be; and that occurs when there is no longer a profit.

I have decided to only buy from manufacturers that I trust. And I cannot trust a company if I don't know who stands behind the product. Show me the most beautiful watch in the world and tell me that it offers a dozen upgrades when compared to other compatible watches. I will thank you for bringing it to my attention, but I will pass if I can't determine who is behind it.

RANT COMPLETE... Please resume scheduled programing...

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


----------



## larkja (Mar 29, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'll probably be offering rubbers straps as an add-on, but every watch will come with a bracelet.


Thank you


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just a heads-up, to whoever's been on the fence with any of the NTH or L&H models...

We're down to low-single-digit inventory on all versions of the Tropics ("low-single-digit" being 5 pieces or less, and in most cases, it's just 1 piece).

We're not making more. It's one of those "it'll be at the upper end of affordable, but I believe in it, so we're making it" models that are hard to justify producing more than once. If you want one, don't wait. Get it now. No, they're not going on sale.

We're down to single-digit inventory (mostly low-single-digits) on most versions of the Subs. I guess I screwed up by not asking my factory to make more in the current batch.

We'll probably make more Subs, but I don't know if we'll make more of any particular version, other than MAYBE the Näcken Modern Black, which people sometimes email me to ask about.

Assuming we do make more, I don't foresee making delivery on them until sometime next year. If you want one of the versions currently available, don't wait. Get it now. No, they're not going on sale.

We're also down to single-or-low-double digit inventory on all versions of all L&H models.

The Orthos I (Blue/Orange and Red/Gray), Acionna, Cerberus, and Spectre are all available to ship from our UK warehouse (just those, none of the others, and no, I'm not sending more of anything to the UK, since I'm trying to clear out what's there).

The Acionna, Cerberus and Spectre are all on clearance, at what are effectively pre-order prices - AND I'm offering free shipping on them. I'm never making more of the Acionna or Cerberus, and as you might have seen, there's a new version of the Spectre coming, so they all have to go.

When they're gone, someone's going to email me to ask if I've got one stuffed into a corner of my office, and I will quietly shake my head before sending a polite "no" as my response (this is exactly what I did when two people emailed me this month to ask about the long-gone black-tie Cerberus).

We're not making more of the Orthos. We made a bunch in two production runs, and it sold well, but we're down to the last few pieces, so...get 'em outta here. I just marked the remaining 4 versions of the Orthos I & II down to $400 on clearance, plus get free shipping on 'em.

When they're gone, and you email me to ask if I have anymore, I'll scream "NO!" at my laptop, and crank "Danger Zone" by Kenny Loggins all the way up to 11, before sending you a polite "no" as a response.

"Why is he putting everything on sale? Is his business in trouble?"

Hell no. But I've got this thing about not marking a model as "sold out" while we've still got 6 or 8 pieces of it left, and as much as I want to keep focusing on new models, it's a pain when I've got 6 or 8 pieces left of 50 different models/versions.

Do the math - it's 300-400 pieces of inventory I want to clear out so I can take them down from the website, change warehouses ("Seriously? I thought he did that already") and move on.

They're like that one drunk friend who doesn't realize the party's over and it's time to go home, instead he's insisting you order Domino's and revealing way too much about himself.

"Can we use our coupon codes or rewards points, too?"

YES! For cryin' out loud, just get in there, pick something up, I don't even care what, and get it out of my sight.

Also, danjah zohn.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Just a heads-up, to whoever's been on the fence with any of the NTH or L&H models...
> 
> We're down to low-single-digit inventory on all versions of the Tropics ("low-single-digit" being 5 pieces or less, and in most cases, it's just 1 piece).
> 
> ...


I bought another Orthos a couple days ago because I figured you were getting down there on those models. Just waiting for it to physically ship. Glad to hear business is good and looking forward to the next model(s).


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

I deffo need one of those trick boxes too Doc.........

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Just a heads-up, to whoever's been on the fence with any of the NTH or L&H models...
> 
> We're down to low-single-digit inventory on all versions of the Tropics ("low-single-digit" being 5 pieces or less, and in most cases, it's just 1 piece).
> 
> ...


Really tempted by an orthos now, but am worried about the size. 
I have 6.7" wrists. Does there happen to be anyone here with similar size wrists that could share a wristshot with the orthos? (Preferably taken from some distance, to not skew the perceived size too much)

I've also read that the bracelet can't be sized quite that small, is that true?

Edit: ok, found a review by Watchier, stating he has 6.7" wrist too. Seems to wear nice, but the bracelet couldn't be sized that small.. but it looks nice on perlon (beginning to think all looks nice on perlon)
Shame of the bracelet, but might take the plunge at current price anyway.

2nd Edit:
Ok so it took me half an hour from doubting to placing an order... Is that impulsive? 
But no, have considered one for a long time, but always doubted about the size. Such an enabling post @docvail ... Puts all the big brands' marketing campaigns to shame 

My first janis watch coming in, red-grey orthos 

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Earl Grey (Aug 17, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



uvalaw2005 said:


>


Damn that looks gorgeous, and I am not even into sub homages, and didn't know I liked rootbeer.

What's the lume on that: C3 all around?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> Really tempted by an orthos now, but am worried about the size.
> I have 6.7" wrists. Does there happen to be anyone here with similar size wrists that could share a wristshot with the orthos? (Preferably taken from some distance, to not skew the perceived size too much)
> 
> I've also read that the bracelet can't be sized quite that small, is that true?
> ...


my wrist is near the same size. I had to cut out a link. Somewhere there are a few crappy pics of how I did it here on a thread. Not sure if anybody can locate the pics, but it came out perfect and my scarlet and gray orthos was my number one watch until my nth watches. It still gets wrist time, but it was exclusive for a long time.....


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I would love to grab an Orthos but I just do not have the funds. 

A word to newcomers coming to the forums if any of them read this. DO NOT SUCCUMB TO THE BIG BOYS....Look at the micro's. 

I wish someone would have shaken me a bit when I first came here the at the start of the year. I spent too much of pieces and now wish it were so easy to erase those and buy 1 of the Orthos. 

Oh well live and learn and save for a Devil I shall...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> Really tempted by an orthos now, but am worried about the size.
> I have 6.7" wrists. Does there happen to be anyone here with similar size wrists that could share a wristshot with the orthos? (Preferably taken from some distance, to not skew the perceived size too much)
> 
> I've also read that the bracelet can't be sized quite that small, is that true?
> ...


One of my faves.

The bracelets on the Orthos 1 are a little long, or need 1 or 2 more removable links, depending on your view. Opinions about how small it can be sized differ. HWA was able to size it to his pigeon-wrists without having to cut a link out. I think it's dependent on how you measure your wrist, how tight and where you wear your watch.

My wrist is ~7" around, and I still have at least one removable link in the bracelet and all the micro-adjustments in the clasp.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> One of my faves.
> 
> The bracelets on the Orthos 1 are a little long, or need 1 or 2 more removable links, depending on your view. Opinions about how small it can be sized differ. HWA was able to size it to his pigeon-wrists without having to cut a link out. I think it's dependent on how you measure your wrist, how tight and where you wear your watch.
> 
> My wrist is ~7" around, and I still have at least one removable link in the bracelet and all the micro-adjustments in the clasp.


Ok, well will see when it arrives then. Would be nice if I could wear it on the bracelet, but it looks good on perlon or a nato as well, so could live with that too.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



GlenRoiland said:


> my wrist is near the same size. I had to cut out a link. Somewhere there are a few crappy pics of how I did it here on a thread. Not sure if anybody can locate the pics, but it came out perfect and my scarlet and gray orthos was my number one watch until my nth watches. It still gets wrist time, but it was exclusive for a long time.....


I've got good news, and bad news...

The NEW Official all things Lew & Huey Thread - Page 279

Apparently your pics are so bad Photobucket isn't even showing them anymore. Can't say I blame them.

Maybe you could talk it through? If memory serves, you cut one link out, then found that the pin remaining from that link needed to be hammered through, or something like that.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Earl Grey said:


> Damn that looks gorgeous, and I am not even into sub homages, and didn't know I liked rootbeer.
> 
> What's the lume on that: C3 all around?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep.

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rusty avoids death by gator (narrowly, since the tip of the seconds hand isn't right)...


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

^Attaboy Rusty! |>


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

I said it before and I say it again: that looks exceptionally good. 

But still can't see myself wearing that. But I do really appreciate that piece for all of its details. There is a reappearing "nth" (or should it be Nth  ) style (as in "value of brand recognition" - I looked that one up, though). 

All these colors and rings and stripes - the bracelet looks very "toolish" (toolish as in "masculin" ) too. But one thing bugs me: is the middle link polished? Was it polished all the time? Don't recall...


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I said it before and I say it again: that looks exceptionally good.
> 
> But still can't see myself wearing that. But I do really appreciate that piece for all of its details. There is a reappearing "nth" (or should it be Nth  ) style (as in "value of brand recognition" - I looked that one up, though).
> 
> ...


It is, it was, stop letting little things bother you, or if you can't, try to avoid pointing it out, at least to me, 'cause it's not changing, and I'm not hearing arguments about it, it's gonna be awesome exactly as we have it.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Ok so the barracuda is really looking more and more appealing to me :think:
Actually liked it from the beginning however I tried to let me brain (already have "brown" watches, etc) take over when preordering and just ordered one sub in that round. Should have just let my raw emotions (and Doc's mojo) take over as I usually do when preordering his wares. :-x

Great pics as always uvalaw |>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Every, single, "I like it, but..." sort of comment, summed up for me, perfectly:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Horoticus said:


> ^Attaboy Rusty! |>


Please don't encourage him. The constant threat of death by gator is the only thing that keeps him in line.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I've got good news, and bad news...
> 
> The NEW Official all things Lew & Huey Thread - Page 279
> 
> ...


I forgot all the comments posted after that! Made me laugh reading that again..


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The interlocking 'V' pattern on the new piece's bracelet is really cool, nice idea


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



GlenRoiland said:


> I forgot all the comments posted after that! Made me laugh reading that again..


Still hammering gently, Glen?


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

If the "but" part/video was meant for me, there was no "but" concerning the design choices. Just wanted to know about the polished part. Didn't recall it being as such in the other renders. Plus as i know your allergy against "good intended opinions" - I didn't mean to give one  

Just wanted to make a compliment for your consistency in design choices. You develop a broad variety of models in the nth line but it still is recognizable now with a completely new piece. Maybe I should've written it like this on the first place. 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

The problem with the latest 3d renders by Rusty is that before I was pretty convinced the blue one was the one for me... And now they both (blue and orange) look about as perfect as can be, so back to square one!

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> If the "but" part/video was meant for me, there was no "but" concerning the design choices. Just wanted to know about the polished part. Didn't recall it being as such in the other renders. Plus as i know your allergy against "good intended opinions" - I didn't mean to give one
> 
> Just wanted to make a compliment for your consistency in design choices. You develop a broad variety of models in the nth line but it still is recognizable now with a completely new piece. Maybe I should've written it like this on the first place.
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


It was meant for everyone. A lot of such comments get directed at me, here and elsewhere, and quite honestly, I'm often left wondering what sort of response is expected from me, or, if no response is expected, then...I dunno, why say anything, or why say it to ME?

"I really like the watch, but I dislike the bracelet" (I literally just read that comment made in response to a facebook post of the Tropics). Why would someone go out of their way to tell me that?

"You have a lovely home, but the ceilings all look too low to me..."

Do you apologize, do you argue, do you promise to have the house gutted, and the interior rebuilt with higher ceilings? What sort of reply does the low-ceiling observation warrant?

I suspect people often make those sorts of comments hoping I'll agree with them, apologize, and offer some other accommodation, or promise to change the design. But I never do.

So what's left for me is to argue/explain (I don't always have the energy), ignore (I'm sincerely afraid of appearing rude by not responding in SOME way), or make some snarky reply (often entertaining for others, but my snarky replies can cut kind of deep, and lately, I'm trying to take the high road more often, play things straight, etc).

I don't know how I can make this any more clear. By the time I reveal a design, we've worked on it for months (we started this one on 3 January), it's already in prototyping, it's final, I'm not changing it based on anyone's feedback, and any suggestions/criticisms at that point are going to have no effect on the outcome whatsoever.

Knowing that, what would you expect my reaction to be when you tell me you don't like some aspect of the design ("you" being the generalized "you all" not any one of you, specifically)? Call me a jerk, but if I don't see the point in what someone is saying, I'm very likely to treat it as pointless.

This is why I stopped responding to discussions about my watches in other threads. I realize people will continue commenting/criticizing and making "observations" no matter what my reaction, so best I let those discussions carry on without me.

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## grabby (Mar 1, 2017)

Well, you bastards finally did it. It seems to be your M.O. Whispers of an upcoming model. Early prototypes or renderings. Pre-order madness, then production and initial deliveries... And to you ****ers with the micro lenses, bite me.

And Doc, you are the worst of them. The audacity. The nerve. You come off as this great online persona. A fellow lover of watches and horology. In reality you just stir the pot. I imagine you cackling as you type away on your keyboard, knowing that you are ensnaring weak men. 

My son may never go to college because of this forum and the Sirens who reside within.

There are officially only two NTH Azores in mint left on Janistrading. I folded like a cheap suit. I am beaten.

You guys suck.



I'll post pictures when it arrives!


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

I hear ya! 
Once the Barracuda has been beached and Ghost Rider has been recovered I'll be at a bakers dozen of Doc's designs. They have quickly consumed my collection. 
It's so hard to narrow down the choices with some many great models. You really can't go wrong. I don't see any end in sight as I really like the new models coming soon.



grabby said:


> Well, you bastards finally did it. It seems to be you M.O. Whispers of an upcoming model. Early prototypes or renderings. Pre-order madness, then production and initial deliveries... And to you ****ers with the micro lenses, bite me.
> 
> And Doc, you are the worst of them. The audacity. The nerve. You come off as this great online persona. A fellow lover of watches and horology. In reality you just stir the pot. I imagine you cackling as you type away on your keyboard, knowing that you are ensnaring weak men.
> 
> ...


----------



## Trango (Mar 1, 2014)

Maybe I missed it previously but I just noticed that the subs are no longer on the "Coming Soon" page and now listed to be in stock 8/2! I'm pretty fired up about my vintage black!


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> It was meant for everyone. A lot of such comments get directed at me, here and elsewhere, and quite honestly, I'm often left wondering what sort of response is expected from me, or, if no response is expected, then...I dunno, why say anything, or why say it to ME?
> 
> "I really like the watch, but I dislike the bracelet" (I literally just read that comment made in response to a facebook post of the Tropics). Why would someone go out of their way to tell me that?
> 
> ...


I think its high time we started criticizing the way you keep your goatee. Watches be damned.


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

True story...

I genuinely don't care about asking/concerning myself over little details about the upcoming DevilRay - this is because it looks great. Also having seen in the flesh (and owning) 2 x Cerberus, 2 x Commander, 1 x Orthos (new style) & 1 x Phantom - I completely trust when Doc says it's good... it's gonna be

I am still interested in seeing new pics/renders as they come out, but I'm not gonna sweat the small stuff (spring bar tensile strength, the depth of the brushing in nano measurements, how it will sit on my wrist whilst doing handstands and if course the specific shade of blue)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

grabby said:


> Well, you bastards finally did it. It seems to be your M.O. Whispers of an upcoming model. Early prototypes or renderings. Pre-order madness, then production and initial deliveries... And to you ****ers with the micro lenses, bite me.
> 
> And Doc, you are the worst of them. The audacity. The nerve. You come off as this great online persona. A fellow lover of watches and horology. In reality you just stir the pot. I imagine you cackling as you type away on your keyboard, knowing that you are ensnaring weak men.
> 
> ...


Well, at least now that I know your real name, your username makes sense to me.



CMA22inc said:


> I hear ya!
> Once the Barracuda has been beached and Ghost Rider has been recovered I'll be at a bakers dozen of Doc's designs. They have quickly consumed my collection.
> It's so hard to narrow down the choices with some many great models. You really can't go wrong. I don't see any end in sight as I really like the new models coming soon.


Bruce Willis is hot.



Trango said:


> Maybe I missed it previously but I just noticed that the subs are no longer on the "Coming Soon" page and now listed to be in stock 8/2! I'm pretty fired up about my vintage black!


Sent this out two days ago. If you pre-ordered one, you should have gotten it. If not, then you probably need to check the spam filters.

NTH Subs Pre-Order Production Update[UNIQID]



Keeper of Time said:


> I think its high time we started criticizing the way you keep your goatee.


I was going to say something snarky, but the goatee is something I could actually change based on feedback, so that would make more sense than telling me what you don't like about my watches.

I'm not changing the goatee based on anyone's feedback. I'm just sayin'...it would make more sense.


----------



## Earl Grey (Aug 17, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> It was meant for everyone. A lot of such comments get directed at me, here and elsewhere, and quite honestly, I'm often left wondering what sort of response is expected from me, or, if no response is expected, then...I dunno, why say anything, or why say it to ME?
> 
> "I really like the watch, but I dislike the bracelet" (I literally just read that comment made in response to a facebook post of the Tropics). Why would someone go out of their way to tell me that?
> 
> ...


I totally understand your frustration/puzzlement with this. Here are some random thoughts why people do it.

Possibility 1: I think people may just be really excited about a design, but one thing keeps it from being all they want it to be, and they want to share their excitement and disappointment. I think it's very human.

Possibility 2: while it should be fairly well-known by now that you don't change designs based on customer input, other micros do, even when they don't solicit it. I am currently awaiting delivery of two micros, neither of which solicited design input (62MWW and Halios Seaforth), but both of which were changed (for the better) through forum member feedback. Hope springs eternal. 

Possibility 3: Liking your designs almost but not quite enough to buy one, people are hoping that even if they can't change your mind on a current design, that they may influence your future design choices. Seems to have worked with your logo designs. 

(So here comes: personally I like date displays, but NOT at 4:30, unless it's a dial with 3-6-9-12 numerals. I like a lot of your designs, but the 4:30 dates may continue to keep me from buying one. The irony is that I just bought not one but two date-LESS Seaforths (my only dateless watches). I just found them perfect in every other way. I wonder if they had a 4:30 date option if I would have NOT bought them, wanting a date but hating the date placement, and feeling caught between a rock and a hard place as a result. I know it's not particularly logical (unless you are familiar with the concept of the tyranny of choice) but I think having a date option I don't like keeps me also from buying the no-date version of that watch.)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Earl Grey said:


> I totally understand your frustration/puzzlement with this. Here are some random thoughts why people do it.
> 
> Possibility 1: I think people may just be really excited about a design, but one thing keeps it from being all they want it to be, and they want to share their excitement and disappointment. I think it's very human.
> 
> ...


Don't you use logic on me!

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> It is, it was, stop letting little things bother you, or if you can't, try to avoid pointing it out, at least to me, 'cause it's not changing, and I'm not hearing arguments about it, it's gonna be awesome exactly as we have it.


Usually I totally understand your opinion on suggestions. However this is a watch forum. We very definitely have a right to discuss things we like or don't. If it's your website and you don't want those shenanigans, fine. But this isn't. You didn't even start this thread if I remember right. Nobody is going to like everything about all your watches. And in those comments nobody asked you to change anything.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Well, there goes all the fun out of the thread.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

applejosh said:


> Well, there goes all the fun out of the thread.


Ha. It isn't the first time and won't be the last I am sure. Still buying a devilray even though there are some things I am not crazy about. There are tons of things I am. We just need things to talk about until the watch hits our hands.


----------



## Durkano (Jul 20, 2014)

applejosh said:


> Well, there goes all the fun out of the thread.


Are people only supposed to post postive opinions in a thread about a brand?


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> It was meant for everyone. A lot of such comments get directed at me, here and elsewhere, and quite honestly, I'm often left wondering what sort of response is expected from me, or, if no response is expected, then...I dunno, why say anything, or why say it to ME?
> 
> "I really like the watch, but I dislike the bracelet" (I literally just read that comment made in response to a facebook post of the Tropics). Why would someone go out of their way to tell me that?
> 
> ...


Just my two cents, but often times people just say what they think, because online communication is now treated as normal conversation. They probably don't expect a response, may not even expect you to read it. They just feel like they can say it, so they do.

In our modern internet age a lot of value (not a good thing in my mind) has been placed on peoples random in the moment thoughts, and feelings. This means people will just say random crap, cause that is what social media is for. Posting funny gifs, stupid one liner memes, pics of what you ate for lunch, and selfies. It isn't content that has merit, or even discussion value. It is just what they felt, or thought was cute at that moment. I even fall for it myself sometimes, but I try to restrict it to the low ball lands of internet society that social media represents. I think I even mentioned in the microbrand group how the hands on the devilray didn't shiver me timbers now that I think about it, sorry about that one.

In short, don't overthink it Doc. If you don't want to reply, don't try to. Or even simpler, questions need answers, however, "I really like the watch, but I dislike the bracelet" isn't a question, it's a statement. Statements don't need to be responded to.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

These days, participation is valued, expected, and what makes the Internet flow, even if it does not make immediate sense. ;->

Be happy that you have people commenting on your threads; that shows a lot of interest which is what you're trying to get, I think. That, and sales.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Just for the record, I started the thread. I should get a doughnut or something. And I started it just to keep reading the sort of snarky back and forth that follows EVERY Doc thread. I don't even like watches. I just like snarky comments.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

I'm just here for the fireworks. Somebody pass the popcorn. I need a beer.


----------



## SigmaPiJiggy (Mar 19, 2016)

DevilRay: Definitely makes it move...

BUT:

Waiting on real life proto-photos. I'm in the weird sub 7" wrist category that makes size and wear super finicky. It's almost as if dimensions don't matter on paper. 

Any ETA on having a live one to spread all over the webs? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

SigmaPiJiggy said:


> DevilRay: Definitely makes it move...
> 
> BUT:
> 
> ...


FYI I have ~6.5 inch wrists and have 5 of docs watches and another incoming next month. They all wear fine. The renders are great but when in steel it's so much better IMO.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> Just for the record, I started the thread. I should get a doughnut or something.


Oh, you mean those rubber round things with a hole in the middle that you sit on because of ...


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> Rusty avoids death by gator (narrowly, since the tip of the seconds hand isn't right)...


Since a couple of those renders show a dark bracelet... is that intended to be "shadow" or to indicate that two different bracelets will be available?


----------



## 760274 (Jul 24, 2015)

People make "haul videos" where they judge their everyday shopping items.
No unboxing goes undocumented, each thought has to be shared.
They post anything about everything.

Of course they will post their thoughts about your watches. 
Get over it, Doc, humans can't handle the internet.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Just for the record, I started the thread. I should get a doughnut or something. And I started it just to keep reading the sort of snarky back and forth that follows EVERY Doc thread. I don't even like watches. I just like snarky comments.


Indeed, for the outrageous entertainment value alone, this thread is required viewing. As for Doc Vail, with some of his comments, it's very obvious that his tongue is deeply buried into his cheek - always, always totally priceless and worth a reread or three - don't ever let your standards drop Doc.

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

dmjonez said:


> Just for the record, I started the thread. I should get a doughnut or something. And I started it just to keep reading the sort of snarky back and forth that follows EVERY Doc thread. I don't even like watches. I just like snarky comments.


Ok i guess you earned it, a snarky doughnut


----------



## 2535.80 (Mar 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> Some first-pass renders of the DevilRay on its bracelet...
> 
> View attachment 12379893
> View attachment 12379897
> View attachment 12379899


.... yeah. Just take my money.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, say whatever you want. Criticize if you want.

My attitude has been, still is, and always will be - these are the designs, they're final, I'm not changing them (because I can't, at this point, even if I wanted to), your criticism matters not, don't buy it if you don't like it, or get over it. I'm not looking for suggestions, even for future versions or models, I'm not doing design by committee, right or wrong, this is how I do things.

That may seem rude. I'm not sorry. It's just how it is. I'm tired of defending everything I do to the handful of people who always find some little thing to nitpick. If you come at me with some little nitpicky thing, see above - the designs are final, not changing, I really don't care what the criticism is, and I don't need to hear it, you're not required to buy it...

The value proposition of my business is pretty straightforward - I sell a good product at a fair price, and back it up with stellar service. The proposition does not include me accepting design suggestions from every quarter, apologizing for every little thing someone doesn't like, providing on demand answers to every possible question (especially those already answered by my website), 24/7, via every medium, or suffering verbal abuse in the eventuality your watch has something wrong with it. 

I'm not required to be here, or on social media, but if I am, I think it's fair for me to maintain the position I do - if you wouldn't like a crowd of people who don't really know your job as well as you do, all squeezing into your office, constantly second-guessing every little thing you do, why would you expect me to like it?

If you don't like the value proposition, or my stance on rejecting suggestions/criticism, even if you understand why it's necessary for me to reject it - don't buy. If you do like it, understand what the proposition does NOT include, so that you won't be disappointed when your expectations aren't met.

I'm not angry. I want you all to be happy. Happiness is about having our expectations met. If you're expecting me to change things based on your input, or expecting me to apologize for what you don't like, or engage in an argument about it, get ready for disappointment, but don't get pissy with me, since I've been consistent about this for the last four-plus years.

Criticize all you like, so long as you understand the criticism will fall on deaf ears, and if I respond, odds are good you won't like the response, because, as I've said many times - these are the designs, they're final, not changing...


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Everyone take a deep breath. This is Doc's company and he does what he thinks is best to keep putting dinner on the table. He has a pretty loyal following so he must be doing something right. I thought I was bad with a half dozen of his designs until I heard about the baker's dozen a few posts back. 

Bottom line, we couldn't expect to tell Seiko or Citizen or Rolex how to build their watches and we should extend Doc the same courtesy. I'm sure if he sees enough comments elsewhere in the forum about a style that people want or like it may get the gears spinning but he would put his own touches on it. That is, unless we all suggest a 55mm aluminum foil analog/digital that a big purple dinosaur pops up at 13 past the hour singing a Rick Astley song. He may avoid that. Or maybe not. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SigmaPiJiggy (Mar 19, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> FYI I have ~6.5 inch wrists and have 5 of docs watches and another incoming next month. They all wear fine. The renders are great but when in steel it's so much better IMO.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


I prefer mine on the smaller size (I prefer to live in 38-40mm). Had a Cerberus and loved it but was just too large and had a Santa Cruz and REALLY regret selling and the size was perfect.

Anything over 40/41 I need to sort of obsess over size and break down photos and videos, Zapruder style.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Guys, say whatever you want. Criticize if you want.
> 
> My attitude has been, still is, and always will be - these are the designs, they're final, I'm not changing them (because I can't, at this point, even if I wanted to), your criticism matters not, don't buy it if you don't like it, or get over it. I'm not looking for suggestions, even for future versions or models, I'm not doing design by committee, right or wrong, this is how I do things.
> 
> ...


This isn't your office. You are standing on a street corner. If you don't like the unfiltered conversation, go stand in your office. If you choose to put yourself on the street understand there will be conversation around your product. You have this twisted. On WUS it isn't your world and we are living in it. It's the other way around.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

idvsego said:


> This isn't your office. You are standing on a street corner. If you don't like the unfiltered conversation, go stand in your office. If you choose to put yourself on the street understand there will be conversation around your product. You have this twisted. On WUS it isn't your world and we are living in it. It's the other way around.


You completely don't get it. Like, 0%, not at all.

Doc is saying that anyone can feel free to criticize the watches, his company, him, whatever, but its not going to change his vision for L&H, his design philosophies, or the present (and future) watch offerings. He is not saying, as you seem to interpret, that people should stop. Only that he's not listening.

How you missed that is completely on you. Maybe you've been spending too much time on the street corner.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Keeper of Time said:


> You completely don't get it. Like, 0%, not at all.
> 
> Doc is saying that anyone can feel free to criticize the watches, his company, him, whatever, but its not going to change his vision for L&H, his design philosophies, or the present (and future) watch offerings. He is not saying, as you seem to interpret, that people should stop. Only that he's not listening.
> 
> How you missed that is completely on you. Maybe you've been spending too much time on the street corner.


Because he made comments after people were criticizing, not offering him suggestions. There is a difference. Totally agree on his stance to offers of suggestion. Disagree that people shouldn't be able to say they don't like his design choices... Or are maybe on the fence about them.

There has been a shift that this is his thread. That's fine. Other conversations can take place in other threads and this can be the fan boy thread. All of this is coming from somontwho plans on buying a devilray despite this convo and despite not loving the bracelet. Not suggesting he change it.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> It was meant for everyone. A lot of such comments get directed at me, here and elsewhere, and quite honestly, I'm often left wondering what sort of response is expected from me, or, if no response is expected, then...I dunno, why say anything, or why say it to ME?
> 
> "I really like the watch, but I dislike the bracelet" (I literally just read that comment made in response to a facebook post of the Tropics). Why would someone go out of their way to tell me that?
> 
> ...


Here is where I see the problem. Not all of these comments are directed at you doc. They are directed at the product but we also talk amongst ourselves. You take most things here as a direct address to you personally. You say we can make these comments but you won't respond yet you constantly respond. Your snark is funny for the most part because it is based on truth. Not being able to hear someone say something negative about very without addressing it is based in something else. You make a solid product but there will always be pros and cons. You have said yourself not every watch is for everybody. Sometimes we just need to talk out which ones are for us.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

This thread is getting heated...
But you know what else is heated...this sweet lume!


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

ConfusedOne said:


> This thread is getting heated...


(My brain somehow made an unexpected association out of that)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Let me try this again.

I'm not just a jerk who can't take criticism. 

I take criticism all the time. I'm actually a nice guy.

I don't want to seem rude. I want you to be happy.

If you're going out of your way to find me, in order to deliver your suggestion or criticism, I'm asking you, sincerely, what is your expectation? What do you want from me?

Should I ignore you? That seems rude. Call me an idiot, but I can't understand why you'd go out of your way to find me if you wanted me to ignore you.

You want me to lie to you, out of courtesy, and tell you I'll consider your criticism? I won't do it. I'm not changing the design, ever, based on any criticism. To lie and say I'll consider it would only invite more criticism and suggestions, which I don't want. No doubt some here would get upset if I said I'd consider it, but I didn't make the change. Look how upset people get over me telling the truth. I can only imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth if I was caught in a lie.

I'm not apologizing to every person who finds something they dislike in one of my designs. There will always be people who find something not to like. 

I won't always have the energy to debate with you. Be thankful for it. 

I really want you all to be happy. Chasing me down to deliver criticism doesn't lead to happiness. Not yours. Not mine.

This is the express train to Awesometown. If you don't want to go to Awesometown, don't get on the train. If you want to drive, then drive, your own car. Take a bus if you want. Or buy a plane ticket. But the express train isn't slowing down, it isn't reversing or changing course. We're not making unscheduled stops in Boringburg or Complainersville. No one can stop you from whining to the conductor, but all that does is irritate him and your fellow passengers. 

Call me a jerk if you want. Go tell people on the internet I can't take criticism, if you must. But don't get upset when I disregard your criticism, because I've never asked for it or invited it in any way. If you're expecting a different response than the one I've been giving for four years, plan on being disappointed.

These are the designs. They're final. They're not changing. Complaining to me about them is entirely pointless. Don't buy it if you don't like it, or my attitude, or get over it. Those are your only choices. Pick one.

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> Let me try this again.
> 
> I'm not just a jerk who can't take criticism.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but I'm still not so sure I like that bracelet.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

great fight scenes so far today doc...get your breath, the second wave is coming soon


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Yeah, but I'm still not so sure I like that bracelet.


Gabe, are you poking the bear again!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

"I don't like this one little thing."

"I don't know what you want me to say in response. The designs are final. They're not changing. Your criticism is going nowhere."

"How dare you, sir!?!? This is a watch forum! We like to criticize!"

"Yep. It is. You do. Have at it. I'm not apologizing because you don't like that one little thing, and it's not changing. Now what?"

Do you see?

Complain all you want, wherever you want, to whomever you want.

But why complain _*HERE*_, to _*ME*_?

You're setting yourself up for disappointment. I hate to see you do that to yourselves. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> "I don't like this one little thing."
> 
> "I don't know what you want me to say in response. The designs are final. They're not changing. Your criticism is going nowhere."
> 
> ...


So you equate here to you? I wasn't addressing you and I didn't think the other few around your most recent set of comments were addressing you. That's the only point I was making. But like I said, obviously this thread is considered the direct line to you. That's fine. I didn't understand it to be that based on the OP but I know things change. If other threads pop up about your products please don't consider them addressed directly to you unless someone says "hey doc". You see this kind of convo about all other watches on here. "I like the turtle but not sure about the size " etc. That thread isn't meant for seiko to adjust the size of its watch, just to talk about the pros and cons of a watch to get through the buying process.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> "I don't like this one little thing."
> 
> "I don't know what you want me to say in response. The designs are final. They're not changing. Your criticism is going nowhere."
> 
> ...


All you're saying is that I might be disappointed in the bracelet?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

idvsego said:


> So you equate here to you?


If by "here", you mean Watchuseek or F71, no, certainly not. I don't scour every corner of the forum looking for people discussing what I'm doing, in order to argue with them.

Just the opposite. As I've said, I've deliberately avoided discussions about what I'm doing, happening elsewhere, for the specific reason that I *DON'T* want to get sucked into arguing with people.

But check the title of this thread - this is the ONE thread in all of WUS where you are virtually guaranteed I'll read the comments, PARTICULARLY IF YOU QUOTE ME, which is EXACTLY what started this tedious debate. Someone QUOTED me, and I felt obliged to respond, out of not wanting to appear rude by ignoring the comment.



idvsego said:


> I wasn't addressing you and I didn't think the other few around your most recent set of comments were addressing you.


Huh? The comments about my comments weren't addressed to me? Seriously? What game are we playing? I don't understand the rules.



idvsego said:


> That's the only point I was making.


Candidly, the point you seem to be making is I ought to absorb criticism, of any sort, anywhere, at any time, from anyone, because, reasons, whatever.

Fine. I stand ready to absorb all criticism. I won't apologize to anyone who tells me what they don't like about my designs, nor will I lie to them, and say I'll consider making the change they're suggesting.

Now what?

That seems to be the REAL bone of contention here. It's not that I can't take the criticism. Clearly, I can. It's that people (maybe you among them?) can't take it that my response is one of indifference to that criticism.

It's not really enough that I accept the criticism, is it? I have to act as if it matters, don't I?

Unfortunately, it doesn't, and I'm not into acting like it does.

And THAT'S what pisses people off.

It ain't that kind of party. And I ain't that kind of DJ. There's no request list. Step back from the turntables.



idvsego said:


> But like I said, obviously this thread is considered the direct line to you. That's fine.


Is it obvious? I thought it was, but this whole line of discussion has me wondering if maybe it wasn't obvious.



idvsego said:


> I didn't understand it to be that based on the OP but I know things change. If other threads pop up about your products please don't consider them addressed directly to you unless someone says "hey doc". You see this kind of convo about all other watches on here. "I like the turtle but not sure about the size " etc. That thread isn't meant for seiko to adjust the size of its watch, just to talk about the pros and cons of a watch to get through the buying process.


Uhm...what have I been saying for the last year? I stopped participating in ALL other threads discussing anything I'm doing, because I don't want to stop people from speaking freely, to include criticizing, if that's what they want to do, and because I don't want to argue about it, any of it, ever, at all.

So...to sum up, this is one of the few threads on WUS I still actively participate in, and it's the ONLY thread about what I'M doing that I participate in. If you comment here, I'm very likely to see your comment. If you QUOTE me, I'm virtually guaranteed to see it, and call me crazy, but I think if you do that, you want a response from me. If you're criticizing what I'm doing, and you want me to apologize because you don't like something, or promise I'll change it, I won't.

So...

These are the designs. They're final. I'm not changing them. I don't know how you expect me to respond if you seek me out to deliver your criticism to me. I suspect you want me to apologize for what you don't like, and say I might change it based on your suggestion, but that won't happen, so I'm afraid you're setting yourself up for disappointment, which I hate to see people do, because deep down inside, I truly want you all to be happy.

Seeking me out, for the purpose of delivering your criticism to me, will not lead to your happiness (or mine). Criticize all you like, if you must, but why seek ME out, to criticize what I'M doing to ME, considering how clear and consistent I've been about what I do with that criticism (nothing)?


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Blah......facking blah......maybe it the beer but I don't care.....if Doc you ever in Toronto. Canada, I want to buy you a beer. If buy rare chance I am in Philadelphia? I, want to buy you a beer. I don't care wtf peeps say. You keep doing what you do.. I will buy 1 more this year, maybe 2.....eff em all

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

The add-on rubber straps - would these be made specifically for the Devil Ray (ie curved to fit the case)?

Every render makes it harder to wait for the Devil Ray's release date. =)

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## SigmaPiJiggy (Mar 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> If you QUOTE me, I'm virtually guaranteed to see it, and call me crazy, but I think if you do that, you want a response from me.


Soooo... about the timeline on that DevilRay prototype?*^

*I can admit I'm annoyingly scrupulous about size and shape so seeing some live pics is the balls. Not meant as any sort of critique or change request.

^I would genuinely appreciate the response, as I see the value in the unique opportunity to get info straight from the brand owner.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jollytron (Sep 27, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> Really tempted by an orthos now, but am worried about the size.
> I have 6.7" wrists. Does there happen to be anyone here with similar size wrists that could share a wristshot with the orthos? (Preferably taken from some distance, to not skew the perceived size too much)
> 
> I've also read that the bracelet can't be sized quite that small, is that true?


I have a 5.75" wrist. I had to cut a few links to size it up, but it's a relatively simple process.

Have a pic!


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

fearlessleader said:


> Since a couple of those renders show a dark bracelet... is that intended to be "shadow" or to indicate that two different bracelets will be available?


Just askin' -- no complaints either way.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

From a personal point of view, one of the really pleasurable aspects of this thread is that I get to have a virtual peak over the artist's shoulder as he renders the metaphorical blank canvas into a 3-dimensional, wearable work of art. The imparted creativity most certainly connects me with the artist plus his work and I feel privileged to have the opportunity to watch a concept taking shape. Yes, there is a selling element to all of this, but we are all willing participants in this aren't we?

But, would I deign to interfere in this intricate creativity? Let me put it this way, I would have invited permanent disfigurement if I was to have said to a particular artist - "Snr. Picasso, that black just isn't black enough"; the rest of my life would have been greeted with - "hey, why do you have that paint brush up your nose?".

Yes, this is a _discussion_ platform, about a subject that we all love and enjoy and Chris Vail does seem to go out of his way to satisfy our minutest of cravings with the inevitable consequence of manifold suggestive faux pas from unwitting participants. Will it happen again? probably, but I do hope that Chris continues to take these divergences with his usual good grace and keeps us all regularly informed of the progress with the creation of what we desire, those beautiful watches.

Anyway, about that bracelet........

No, not that one, but this, isn't it the most beautiful bracelet to have ever held a watch to wrist?









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

No, I don't like that bracelet either. Doc, you seem to be having trouble with bracelets, and you ain't no Picasso. Stop acting like you own the Internet and look into something like this:









Or this:









Or this:


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Actually, the bracelet on this one is not terrible.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

uvalaw2005 said:


> No, I don't like that bracelet either. Doc, you seem to be having trouble with bracelets, and you ain't no Picasso. Stop acting like you own the Internet and look into something like this:
> 
> View attachment 12388637
> 
> ...


Er, I stand corrected, these are the most beautiful bracelets ever.....probably, maybe......

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

My favorite feature on this watch is the bracelet. Pretty cool.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Did someone say "bracelet"?

Doc, i have some thoughts. Suggestions, really. Should i get rip-roaring drunk before or after i share them on this thread?

You'd think that after about the 2500th post in a thread, most of which are doc's insufferably inexcusably long thin-skinned denials of thin-skinnediness, none of which are remotely credible.... wait. What was my point again?

Oh. Yeah. Solid end links should be crispy, not squishy. 

Gabe, where'd you leave the matches?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Personally I find it funny that serious watch goofs like myself give two craps what a bracelet or strap looks like. People posting in this thread, on this forum, have surely noticed by now how easy it is to swap a strap, or even replace a bracelet with a non OEM one. Sure that means extra money, assuming you don't already have a good replacement on hand, but it is the one thing you can easily change about a watch. 

Which is also why many watches ship with crappy straps, good way to save costs for the maker, and they know people can swap it easily.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> The add-on rubber straps - would these be made specifically for the Devil Ray (ie curved to fit the case)?
> 
> Every render makes it harder to wait for the Devil Ray's release date. =)
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Nope. Just the 22mm natural rubber straps we've already got in stock, for as long as inventory lasts.

I don't sell a ton of straps. Most are purchased as add-ons to watches being bought. When the inventory I have sells out, I'll probably look to stock fewer straps.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SigmaPiJiggy said:


> Soooo... about the timeline on that DevilRay prototype?*^
> 
> *I can admit I'm annoyingly scrupulous about size and shape so seeing some live pics is the balls. Not meant as any sort of critique or change request.
> 
> ...


We're hoping to have it sometime in September, but given my factory's history of being unable to meet a delivery target, I don't know, nor would I want to guess when in September that may be.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Did someone say "bracelet"?
> 
> Doc, i have some thoughts. Suggestions, really. Should i get rip-roaring drunk before or after i share them on this thread?
> 
> ...


I'll do what I can. As you were the first (or at least, the most memorable) person to obsess over end-links, I think I'll call my current approach "the Andrew Rule". With the exception of the Subs, we're looking to avoid bracelets with end-link styles which will suffer under your intense scrutiny.



Karkarov said:


> Personally I find it funny that serious watch goofs like myself give two craps what a bracelet or strap looks like. People posting in this thread, on this forum, have surely noticed by now how easy it is to swap a strap, or even replace a bracelet with a non OEM one. Sure that means extra money, assuming you don't already have a good replacement on hand, but it is the one thing you can easily change about a watch.
> 
> Which is also why many watches ship with crappy straps, good way to save costs for the maker, and they know people can swap it easily.


I was very disappointed with the straps on the Riccardo. The Acionna's straps were decent enough. But then my old factory failed me again on the Spectre. After that, I looked to make everything with a bracelet (the Cerb, then the Orthos).

By the time we got to the Phantom, I'd been to the Hong Kong show, and found better strap suppliers than the clowns my old factory had been working with (I also found a new factory to work with). Those Phantom straps are awesome, as are the vanilla-scented natural rubber straps we have, and the Tropics' straps.

I try to make sure every model is a "complete" offering, meaning there's no need for anyone to ditch any part of it in favor of an aftermarket solution.

The funny thing is, in my experience, there's no cost savings to be had by choosing a crappy strap, or at least, I didn't realize any cost savings when I was getting crappy straps sourced by my old factory. The straps I get direct from the strap suppliers are about the same price as what I was paying my old factory. Any cost difference is pretty negligible, considering what we're paying for the whole package (including the watch, the box, getting them all here, etc). I imagine those straps must have cost them less (I'd certainly hope so), and they made a bit of profit marking them up on me.

The bracelet quality we've gotten has been good to great, across the board, with the exception of the Acionna. That bracelet wasn't bad, but it wasn't as good as I'd hoped it would be. I think the old factory saved (or made) a few bucks by shaving some cost there. All the other bracelets we've gotten have been better. The Tropics bracelet is about as nice as bracelets get for watches that cost less than $1500, and nicer than some over $2,000.

In my observation, people criticize bracelets without realizing what they're really criticizing. After spending two solid days doing nothing but looking at and feeling bracelets and clasps from every supplier at the Hong Kong show, you realize how much poorly-made crap is out there, and what a solid, well-made bracelet feels like. Here and there, people may find a sharp edge or some other minor quibble, but across the entire production, we're sourcing good quality bracelets.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> In my observation, people criticize bracelets without realizing what they're really criticizing. After spending two solid days doing nothing but looking at and feeling bracelets and clasps from every supplier at the Hong Kong show, you realize how much poorly-made crap is out there, and what a solid, well-made bracelet feels like. Here and there, people may find a sharp edge or some other minor quibble, but across the entire production, we're sourcing good quality bracelets.


Definitely agree in general, it isn't just bracelets either, it gets pretty funny when I see people compare a 15 dollars strap and say it is as good as a 100 dollar jpm. I am a strap junky, probably more than 80% of my posts on WUS are in the strap bracelet section. I have owned "great" fluco and hadley roma straps, overpriced but forgivable bas and lokes, just plain overpriced worn and wound, crappy stretchy bracelets, rattly jubilees, and serious oysters fit for a rolex.

Once you actually start using them, get willing to spend more, and pay attention.... there is a world of difference out there.

The Cerberus bracelet was fine in my opinion, nicely brushed, good taper, solid links, etc etc. The only quibble I would have is the clasp is pretty standard/nothing special. Oh god, not a standard clasp, not that. I think the Sinn H Link is little better, but you are now comparing the bracelet on a 500 dollar watch versus a 1200 dollar watch, the Sinn bracelet is supposed to be a little better.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Blue Orthos in da house!!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Karkarov said:


> Definitely agree in general, it isn't just bracelets either, it gets pretty funny when I see people compare a 15 dollars strap and say it is as good as a 100 dollar jpm. I am a strap junky, probably more than 80% of my posts on WUS are in the strap bracelet section. I have owned "great" fluco and hadley roma straps, overpriced but forgivable bas and lokes, just plain overpriced worn and wound, crappy stretchy bracelets, rattly jubilees, and serious oysters fit for a rolex.
> 
> Once you actually start using them, get willing to spend more, and pay attention.... there is a world of difference out there.
> 
> The Cerberus bracelet was fine in my opinion, nicely brushed, good taper, solid links, etc etc. The only quibble I would have is the clasp is pretty standard/nothing special. Oh god, not a standard clasp, not that. I think the Sinn H Link is little better, but you are now comparing the bracelet on a 500 dollar watch versus a 1200 dollar watch, the Sinn bracelet is supposed to be a little better.


Agreed/no argument from me.

I like the Cerberus bracelet, mostly. I think complaining about the folded split pins in the removable links is a legit complaint, which we remedied on the Orthos, and all bracelets since, with solid one-piece screws. Other than that, I think they were good to great, leaving aside the clasp, just looking at the bracelet itself.

Clasps are tough. It's not even a matter of cost that's the challenge, it's just finding something that's well-made and works well enough, and is "better" than what we're using. I'd pay more if I could find better (and thought my customers were willing to pay more for a better clasp), but most of what I've seen really isn't "better".

The clasp on the Orthos is the same one we used on the Cerberus, the Acionna, and the Subs. It's also the same one used on many Seiko models at various price points. and many, many, many other watches from various brands large and small. It's not amazing, but it's solid and does what it's supposed to do - it's "competent". It works well, looks good enough, and aside from a handful of sheared friction pins (maybe 5 or 6 out of well over 2,000), and a handful of safety catches that need to be tightened with a little squeeze, they're hard to beat for the cost.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> Really tempted by an orthos now, but am worried about the size.
> I have 6.7" wrists. Does there happen to be anyone here with similar size wrists that could share a wristshot with the orthos? (Preferably taken from some distance, to not skew the perceived size too much)
> 
> I've also read that the bracelet can't be sized quite that small, is that true?
> ...




















I have a 7 ish wrist

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

I have a tiny 6.5" wrist and can still pull off the Orthos (at least when it's on the bracelet; I've never tried it on a strap). The L2L is about the max my wrist could possibly handle, but the case is shaped in a way that it still sits properly without awkwardly jutting off the sides of my wrist.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> Blue Orthos in da house!!!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice! Still waiting for mine. It seemed to sit for a couple days, waiting for the post office to pick it up. Should be arriving soon.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Tsk tsk tsk.

Can't leave you lot for a moment without it descending into a bear-baiting contest.

Ric


----------



## Leekster (Aug 7, 2015)

docvail said:


> Guys, say whatever you want. Criticize if you want.
> 
> My attitude has been, still is, and always will be - these are the designs, they're final, I'm not changing them (because I can't, at this point, even if I wanted to), your criticism matters not, don't buy it if you don't like it, or get over it. I'm not looking for suggestions, even for future versions or models, I'm not doing design by committee, right or wrong, this is how I do things.
> 
> ...


I LOVE the design.

But... I would slim the case a little and change the bezel insert to sapphire. Maybe carbon fiber?

The bracelet is a just a tad chunky and probably will make it too expensive so maybe give the buyers an opportunity to pay less money or in tri-annual payments? Maybe include a free winder or optional quartz movement?

I think if the logo was different I would buy two, maybe four.

Other than all that stuff, It looks fantastic. Keep up the great work!

Please excuse spelling errors...I'm not very smart.


----------



## larkja (Mar 29, 2016)

Leekster said:


> I LOVE the design.
> 
> But... I would slim the case a little and change the bezel insert to sapphire. Maybe carbon fiber?
> 
> ...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Oh, but he did!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

INCOMMMINNGGGG! Tracking info received. Can't wait. :-!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> INCOMMMINNGGGG! Tracking info received. Can't wait. :-!


What did you get??

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Fallen back in love with this one after two weeks with the NTH Amphion vintage blue prototype!

I believe there only a few of these left and they are going for a steal on the Janis website at the moment!! For those who are unsure take the plunge and give one a try. I highly recommend them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## smatrixt (Aug 7, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> INCOMMMINNGGGG! Tracking info received. Can't wait. :-!


Ditto!

Amphion Gilt


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

My Santa Fe has been shipped!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

fearlessleader said:


> Just askin' -- no complaints either way.


Nope. One bracelet and finish - brushed stainless with polished center links. The renders simply mimic how the watch _should_ look under different lighting conditions with different reflections from the _virtual_ environment.

When you see a lume render, please - for the love of God - do NOT ask if there's a DLC option. There isn't.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

You guys ever notice how much we talk about Doc in this thread? Crazy.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> Fallen back in love with this one after two weeks with the NTH Amphion vintage blue prototype!
> 
> I believe there only a few of these left and they are going for a steal on the Janis website at the moment!! For those who are unsure take the plunge and give one a try. I highly recommend them.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just received mine. Looks really good. Just waiting for the preliminary check of the accuracy before I start removing all the plastic wrap. I bought it just before doc lowered the price, so it's a deal now. (I'd like to think my purchase brought his inventory low enough to encourage the clearance, so you're welcome - just kidding!  )


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Ooh, received notice that my package arrived at pickup point  That was quick! (Always arrives really fast from UK to here actually) 
Don't have time to pick it up till Thursday though :/ or maybe I'll leave work a bit early tomorrow  hard to resist..

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Awwww, yeah.

DevilRay, Black


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Yes. Doc's pet turtle ray. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2535.80 (Mar 20, 2012)

Santa Cruz getting here tomorrow. .... yeah. Feel like a kid waiting for Xmas!


----------



## 2535.80 (Mar 20, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Awwww, yeah.
> 
> DevilRay, Black
> 
> View attachment 12395193


And I thought the wait for the Santa Cruz was torture...


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

Life is a roller coaster...

- I just went onto Janis trading website and for a split second thought I could place my (DevilRay) pre-order = Mucho happiness
- Realised that it's not available to pre-order yet = Mucho sadness

I guess what could make me happy again - if Doc's willing to discuss some proposed design changes...

<Running away quickly, VERY quickly>

;-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchuck said:


> Life is a roller coaster...
> 
> - I just went onto Janis trading website and for a split second thought I could place my (DevilRay) pre-order = Mucho happiness
> - Realised that it's not available to pre-order yet = Mucho sadness
> ...


I will never like this post.

Ever.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I feel like that scene in Austin Powers where he meets the guy with the huge mole.


----------



## Gisae (Dec 30, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Anyway, about that bracelet........
> 
> No, not that one, but this, isn't it the most beautiful bracelet to have ever held a watch to wrist?


It comes close. I had the Yobokies BOR a while back, based on the finishing I liked that one better.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gisae said:


> It comes close. I had the Yobokies BOR a while back, based on the finishing I liked that one better.


Got a pic?

If you wouldn't mind indulging me, could you be more specific? I swear I'm not luring you into an argument, I'm only interested in hearing more about the bracelet, for the sake of having something I can use as an example or show my factory as a visual aid when I ask for quality improvements.

It helps if I can quantify things in an objective way, as opposed to just saying "I want the bracelet to be better". I've tried that, and it doesn't work, unfortunately.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Not sure if this is what you want, Doc. Yobokies BOR on a Seiko diver.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

I have both an Azores and a Yobokies bracelet. At first I thought the Yobokies was a little better but the more I compared them the more I realized the opposite. The Yobokies is thicker but the quality is definitely lower. I'll try to do some comparison photos later.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

MikeyT said:


>


Eh I can just glance at that and tell it has issues. If the bracelet had proper fit you would not be seeing that gap at the lugs. I never liked beads of rice bracelets to begin with though *shrug*


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Hard to tell much from a pic. It wouldn't surprise me if the Yobokies bracelets were thicker. Like the Strapcodes, they're made for Seikos, which are thicker watches.

It could be the angle of the pic, but I like the looks of our end link better, and it looks like the Yobokies has a bit more flex/play between the end link and next link.

Regardless, I don't have any problem believing Harold (Yobokies) is sourcing good stuff. Finishing might vary from piece to piece, or from one batch to the next, but you can see/feel decent quality in the weight and the joints between links.

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Wow... I just caught up on the past 8 or so pages on this thread. I've been really busy, and neglecting my thread reading time. Anyway, I'm here now. For what it's worth, I really like the bracelet (at least from renders) on the upcoming Devil Ray. In fact, I like everything about it. I'm really looking forward to that one!

Regarding bracelets... I have found that I really am a bracelet guy. I've tried changing straps around, and always come back to the bracelets. I also like good ones much more than the fair-to-middling ones. I find that all of the ones I've gotten with my NTH and L&H watches are good. I also like the vanilla scented rubber straps that Doc sells too, but my wife finds it so strange that they smell. I kinda like it.

I bought a Seiko Blue Monster LE, and it only comes on a blue rubber strap. I ordered a standard Monster bracelet for it right after I bought it. I really like the Monster bracelet. It is comfortable and sturdy and nice. It was more money than I wanted to spend, but turned out to be worth it (to me anyway).

Anyway, I think that the "tank tread" style on the Devil Ray looks awesome, and I imagine it will wear nicely and be comfortable too. I like that it is "unusual".


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I am excited...About to join the Janis Trading club officially any day now. I have a Fireball Spectre on order and it FINALLY cleared customs. I just don't know about the brown strap. I always feel weird wearing brown, not sure why lol.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I am excited...About to join the Janis Trading club officially any day now. I have a Fireball Spectre on order and it FINALLY cleared customs. I just don't know about the brown strap. I always feel weird wearing brown, not sure why lol.


It works well for me, but I also got the black leather strap for occasions when I want to match belt/shoes/etc. (And I stand by the orange strap combo. A lot of orange, but it works in casual situations.)


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Love It!!!!!!!

I actually like the strap. I am very weird with wearing anything brown, not sure why. But so far gorgeous.

Thanks Doc!!! It works lol.









Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I am excited...About to join the Janis Trading club officially any day now. I have a Fireball Spectre on order and it FINALLY cleared customs. I just don't know about the brown strap. I always feel weird wearing brown, not sure why lol.


Welcome to the club.
Fireball Spectre was my first too. I occasionally wear it on a bracelet, but I love that brown leather strap, even though it's a tad short(I've recently been introduced to the 140/90 strap and am debating a strap drawer overhaul). 
The brown is nice. I couldn't wear it with black leather... It'd remind me of the Flyers...and I'd never wear it.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

140/90 strap? hmmm. I should have ordered the black strap to go with it but as I stated earlier, I ordered with a bit of beer on my breath and undercover from Wife interference. It did not occur to me to order another strap. 
I am a Chicago Bears fan so I needed something to kill the bad JuJu. New Orange dialed watch it is and I now have a Doc watch to boot.



macosie said:


> Welcome to the club.
> Fireball Spectre was my first too. I occasionally wear it on a bracelet, but I love that brown leather strap, even though it's a tad short(I've recently been introduced to the 140/90 strap and am debating a strap drawer overhaul).
> The brown is nice. I couldn't wear it with black leather... It'd remind me of the Flyers...and I'd never wear it.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Pickup point was open later than I expected, so could still pick my orhtos up after work! 

I was able to size the bracelet to my wrist, so that's a bonus I almost had given up on. Only one micro adjustment to spare, so definitely a long bracelet.

I did order a perlon for it as well, since I didn't expect the bracelet to fit, so will try how that looks when it arrives. If it looks right, I'll probably be wearing it on that anyway, since prefer the comfort of a strap.

The watch wears really well on my wrist, no worries about size anymore.

And the red dial is amazing  have been looking for a nice red dial for a long time, finally found it!










And enough links left to make a pinky ring  (had to screw out one pin to get it off again..  )









Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> Pickup point was open later than I expected, so could still pick my orhtos up after work!
> 
> I was able to size the bracelet to my wrist, so that's a bonus I almost had given up on. Only one micro adjustment to spare, so definitely a long bracelet.
> 
> ...


Love the "Ortho-ring"

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Right now debating getting one of the subs. I've kind of cooled towards the DevilRay, but that doesn't mean my mind won't change by the time of the pre-sale. (I'm the best kind of customer - overly impulsive.) But the thinness of the subs really has my interest. Other than not being sure which one to get, the only thing giving me pause is the shipping and not knowing when one will actually arrive. I've had orders where I order in the afternoon/evening, and it actually ships the next business day. But I've also had two orders where I order, and it sits there for a while. The shipping label is printed, and then it sits for 2-4 days before it actually goes any place. That makes it difficult to time a delivery with when I'll actually be home to receive it. (I, unfortunately, travel a lot for business.) I know how long a shipment should take once it is picked up to when it arrives; the only wildcard I have is when it will actually be picked up. Seems the warehouse has some issues with that. As far as the subs go, I like the dial of the Amphion but really want the hands of the Nacken. Barracuda looks nice, but not a fan of gold accents (and yes, I agree it probably is the best fit for the root beer color scheme). So, choices, choices.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

applejosh said:


> Right now debating getting one of the subs. I've kind of cooled towards the DevilRay, but that doesn't mean my mind won't change by the time of the pre-sale. (I'm the best kind of customer - overly impulsive.) But the thinness of the subs really has my interest. Other than not being sure which one to get, the only thing giving me pause is the shipping and not knowing when one will actually arrive. I've had orders where I order in the afternoon/evening, and it actually ships the next business day. But I've also had two orders where I order, and it sits there for a while. The shipping label is printed, and then it sits for 2-4 days before it actually goes any place. That makes it difficult to time a delivery with when I'll actually be home to receive it. (I, unfortunately, travel a lot for business.) I know how long a shipment should take once it is picked up to when it arrives; the only wildcard I have is when it will actually be picked up. Seems the warehouse has some issues with that. As far as the subs go, I like the dial of the Amphion but really want the hands of the Nacken. Barracuda looks nice, but not a fan of gold accents (and yes, I agree it probably is the best fit for the root beer color scheme). So, choices, choices.


Maybe get a small po box? Then pick it up when you you can

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> Maybe get a small po box? Then pick it up when you you can
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


It's an option, but for the few times a year where this matters to me, seems like too much effort.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

applejosh said:


> It's an option, but for the few times a year where this matters to me, seems like too much effort.


Ok then hold your mail at the post?

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> And the red dial is amazing  have been looking for a nice red dial for a long time, finally found it!


Have to say that looks really sharp. Congrats.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> Ok then hold your mail at the post?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


Another possibility. That might be the route to take if I can't get a confirmed ship date within a 1-2 day range and really want to get the watch.


----------



## smatrixt (Aug 7, 2014)

Amphion Dark Gilt in the house!

Straight on the jubilee, because I know Doc hates it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

smatrixt said:


> Amphion Dark Gilt in the house!
> 
> Straight on the jubilee, because I know Doc hates it.


It's true.


----------



## Soxman5 (Sep 16, 2012)

I finally joined the club. Love my Antilles. Naturally I scuffed the bracelet clasp while desk diving. Wonder if that high polish area will buff out with stainless steel cleaner and pads or if I should avoid? Regardless the watch rocks!


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Edit...Nevermind...Full price. I found it while looking at the new spectre that is to be released as well. Sorry now back to your regularly scheduled programming!!!!


Ok noob question here. When pre-orders drop is it in fact a pre-order where we pay a deposit and then the rest when the watch is ready for shipment? Or Full price at Pre-order flood gates?


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Looks great. Where did you source that jubilee?



smatrixt said:


> Amphion Dark Gilt in the house!
> 
> Straight on the jubilee, because I know Doc hates it.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Ok noob question here. When pre-orders drop is it in fact a pre-order where we pay a deposit and then the rest when the watch is ready for shipment? Or Full price at Pre-order flood gates?


A Doc pre order, you are paying the full pre order price right then and there. You get to benefit from a price lower than MSRP though. I am actually not aware of any watch company that lets you pay part of the price, then the rest later. Outside luxury options anyway.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Karkarov said:


> A Doc pre order, you are paying the full pre order price right then and there. You get to benefit from a price lower than MSRP though. I am actually not aware of any watch company that lets you pay part of the price, then the rest later. Outside luxury options anyway.


I think Hager did for their Black Bay homage.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

smatrixt said:


> Amphion Dark Gilt in the house!
> 
> Straight on the jubilee, because I know Doc hates it.


No matter what doc says, that looks amazing on jubilee! Seems like the end links fit nicely too.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Going to keep it on perlon I think, comfy and looks good 









Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

The Santa Fe, in the dark (and out of focus, sorry). It exists...


----------



## smatrixt (Aug 7, 2014)

Elbakalao said:


> Looks great. Where did you source that jubilee?





Wimads said:


> No matter what doc says, that looks amazing on jubilee! Seems like the end links fit nicely too.
> 
> Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


Cheap Amazon bracelet, have to do some heavy bending on the springbars but I managed to get them to fit.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01E36CS1A

Credit goes to Rusty (rpm1974) for finding it though.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Oh ...., did I think it was a great dial before, but boy I didn't see it in daylight yet... Gorgeous! 
Pics aren't even close to how good it looks IRL. 









Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## phlabrooy (Dec 25, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> The Santa Fe, in the dark (and out of focus, sorry). It exists...
> 
> View attachment 12399393


Wow !

The first Santa Fe in the wild ...

Waiting anxiously to get shipping info on this one ...

More pics, please, to lessen the wait !

Regards,


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

My Amphion dark gilt arrived yesterday and it's awesome! Been too busy to size the bracelet, so photos will have to wait...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

phlabrooy said:


> Wow !
> 
> The first Santa Fe in the wild ...
> 
> ...


As you wish. Another mediocre photo, I'm rushing off to work. First impressions: It looks much better in real-life than photos (including the professional ones I've seen) show. Beautiful face, awesome detail. I swapped it to mesh, because I like mesh. The bracelet is great. Only complaint, if you charge the lume before you try and go to sleep, it's like sleeping with a night light. I recommend NOT charging the lume...


----------



## Trango (Mar 1, 2014)

Just received my Vintage Black last night. It works well even with my 6.5" wrist. My first mechanical was a SNZH which I've worn for several years. The difference in quality is huge....my seiko bezel feels like it's stuck in peanut butter compared to the deliberate clicks on the Nacken, and the bracelet is great. Thanks Doc!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Glad you guys like the watches you're getting. Feel free to tell others. Let me know if the watches give you any trouble. 

As I've said before, credit for the NTH Subs' case shape belongs largely to Rusty, who did most of the case design on that model, without needing very much input from me. 

Colors, dial styles, handsets, etc, was a group effort, but Aaron illustrated all of them, plus the designs we rejected. Without Aaron's ability to churn out a ton of illustrations quickly, and do rapid revisions, there's just no way we'd have the variety of Subs we do. I wouldn't have the time it would take me to do what he does if he weren't doing it.

I'm working with one of the best factories in Hong Kong. I could ask for fewer delays, better attention to the details of my designs, and better communication, but they do produce great quality at a reasonable cost. I think the case finishing, and in particular, the bezel action on the divers we've made with them demonstrates that. I somewhat prefer the more cushioned feel of the bezel on the Orthos I (made by my old factory), but I know the difference in their construction, and the new factory's approach is functionally superior.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Good news: The Fe has landed! :-!

Bad news: Still at work for a few hours and have plans that will likely tie me up most of the night. Add to that my children love to "help" me (still love em ) whenever I get a new watch and there is no telling when I'll be able to get it sized and on the wrist. :-x

Will likely be a late night with much frustrated looks from my better half as I plan (hope) to get this thing ready for wear tomorrow. :think:

Now the real question: How much will this quench my thirst until THE RAY!? o|


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Totally Stoked!!

Ton o' pics....


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Wow!!! I really have not looked this closely at that piece and now I am flabbergasted...Gawd damn HaWT!!!!!



yankeexpress said:


> Totally Stoked!!
> 
> Ton o' pics....


----------



## 2535.80 (Mar 20, 2012)

Really like the Santa Cruz. I can't stop staring at the dial, and I love how thin it is. The case size is perfect for me.


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

Do we have a shipping date fro the Barracuda? Soo looking forward to receiving it.

I'm interested in the Jubilee as I need one on one of my watches and it's going to be this or a Tiger. Do you have a link for the Jubilee, who, how much?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Proco2020 said:


> Do we have a shipping date fro the Barracuda? Soo looking forward to receiving it.
> 
> I'm interested in the Jubilee as I need one on one of my watches and it's going to be this or a Tiger. Do you have a link for the Jubilee, who, how much?


If you ordered one, check your email spam filters. We sent out an email update to all pre-order customers.

NTH Subs Pre-Order Production Update[UNIQID]


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Grabbed it from my mail box for a quick pic before I go in the house get swarmed by my kids. 







Great looking watch. Really digging the dial texture. Thinking I should have grabbed a root beer as well at pre-order. Already had the champagne Antilles on order and thought the root beer sub would be "brown" overkill. Your killing me over here Doc o|


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

hwa said:


> Did someone say "bracelet"?
> 
> .
> Oh. Yeah. Solid end links should be crispy, not squishy.
> ...


What you're saying is, "please increase the price by $100 to make the end links how I want"

Because that's what happens when you want machined end links.

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> What you're saying is, "please increase the price by $100 to make the end links how I want"
> 
> Because that's what happens when you want machined end links.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[












New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


I genuinely should know better. 

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

vmarks said:


> What you're saying is, "please increase the price by $100 to make the end links how I want"
> 
> Because that's what happens when you want machined end links.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


What's your point?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## phlabrooy (Dec 25, 2011)

mplsabdullah said:


> Grabbed it from my mail box for a quick pic before I go in the house get swarmed by my kids.
> View attachment 12400765
> 
> Great looking watch. Really digging the dial texture. Thinking I should have grabbed a root beer as well at pre-order. Already had the champagne Antilles on order and thought the root beer sub would be "brown" overkill. Your killing me over here Doc o|


Wow, Oh Wow !!!

Just Wow ...

Regards,


----------



## grabby (Mar 1, 2017)

Seeing how we have the unique opportunity of speaking directly to the designer of some awesome watches, I was hoping Doc may indulge me on this question.

After spending countless hours designing and then having your hands deep in the manufacturing process of some well-loved watches, can you tell us aspects of one, several, or maybe all models that you would have changed in retrospect? Small or large details, doesn't matter. I would love to hear what you, as the designer, would have changed if given the chance.

I specifically would really enjoy hearing if there is anything with the Azores line you would have changed.

Thanks!


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

Hello, All....

Here are some photos of one that arrived today....









Take a look at the _texture_....









I'm Lovin' the Blue... 









And here is a 'quickee Lume Shot'









|>|>


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Happy to report that the lume works |>


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

;-) Yup, the *Amphion* Vintage Blue wasn't the only one that arrived... :-d









































































The *Amphion* Dark Gilt is really something special....

G'Nite All....

|>|>


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

grabby said:


> Seeing how we have the unique opportunity of speaking directly to the designer of some awesome watches, I was hoping Doc may indulge me on this question.
> 
> After spending countless hours designing and then having your hands deep in the manufacturing process of some well-loved watches, can you tell us aspects of one, several, or maybe all models that you would have changed in retrospect? Small or large details, doesn't matter. I would love to hear what you, as the designer, would have changed if given the chance.
> 
> ...


I can't imagine, if I was the manufacturer, answering this question in any way that would satisfy you. I might say something like, "I'd have sold more. Thats what I would change."


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

GlenRoiland said:


> I can't imagine, if I was the manufacturer, answering this question in any way that would satisfy you. I might say something like, "I'd have sold more. Thats what I would change."


 The question is will doc go short and humorous or a wall of TMI text so imposing that it crushes the desire for anyone else to ask a question in the foreseeable future.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

grabby said:


> Seeing how we have the unique opportunity of speaking directly to the designer of some awesome watches, I was hoping Doc may indulge me on this question.
> 
> After spending countless hours designing and then having your hands deep in the manufacturing process of some well-loved watches, can you tell us aspects of one, several, or maybe all models that you would have changed in retrospect? Small or large details, doesn't matter. I would love to hear what you, as the designer, would have changed if given the chance.
> 
> ...


I would have made the date on the Acionna at 4 or 4:30, to preserve the 12-3-6-9 layout, and offered it in a no-date version.

I would have made the Cerberus smaller, just 40mm, not 42mm, and offered it in a no-date version.

I would have made the bezel on the Orthos I easier to grip, and offered it in an no-date version.

I would have made the factory stick to my design more on the Phantom. The case isn't really what I wanted it to be, at all, but we ran out of time.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> The question is will doc go short and humorous or a wall of TMI text so imposing that it crushes the desire for anyone else to ask a question in the foreseeable future.


Ordinarily, I'd consider doing that, but I'm on vacation this week, and don't really have the time.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Came for the lume







Stayed for the quality and comfort


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

docvail said:


> Ordinarily, I'd consider doing that, but I'm on vacation this week, and don't really have the time.


What we really want to know is--Will there be a drunk in-law vacation travelog update?!?!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rscaletta said:


> What we really want to know is--Will there be a drunk in-law vacation travelog update?!?!


Not this year.

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

docvail said:


> Not this year.
> 
> New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


Oh well. At least the new merch hits the spot!










I think the Gilt might be the stand-out model of this batch. But I'm sure others have their opinions!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Oldie but goodie









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rscaletta said:


> Oh well. At least the new merch hits the spot!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wait until the Barracudas get delivered.

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> ...snip
> 
> I would have made the Cerberus smaller, just 40mm, not 42mm, and offered it in a no-date version.
> snip...





docvail said:


> Ordinarily, I'd consider doing that, but I'm on vacation this week, and don't really have the time.


Now I'm double disappointed. Enjoy the vacation hopefully it wasn't to Margate.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


>


Is the Vintage Blue dial actually a dark shade of blue, or is it black and just the light/angle makes it appear different than the black version?

edit: oops, that's not the gilt


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Now I'm double disappointed. Enjoy the vacation hopefully it wasn't to Margate.


Williamsburg, VA.

I specifically told my sons to NOT do the "Trump Face"...









New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## 2535.80 (Mar 20, 2012)

Hell yeah.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

applejosh said:


> Is the Vintage Blue dial actually a dark shade of blue, or is it black and just the light/angle makes it appear different than the black version?
> 
> edit: oops, that's not the gilt


Did you just ask if the vintage blue dial is black? It's early, but ive been drinking this week and maybe i misread.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Did you just ask if the vintage blue dial is black? It's early, but ive been drinking this week and maybe i misread.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The vintage blue Amphion. I see the bezel is blue, but it looks in some pictures that the dial is also blue while others it looks black. So asking if the "blue" in the name refers only to the bezel or to both the bezel and dial. (And yes, I could have originally worded that a lot better. Sorry.)


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Fannum Phrydae! On a soft, super comphy perforated silicone diver strap.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

rscaletta said:


> Oh well. At least the new merch hits the spot!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I almost went for this one but already have the Amphion modern. I thought they are too close to have both. I have a Nacken modern blue and a Santa Cruz on order. Waiting patiently, well kinda of patiently, while seeing all the new arrivals.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Meant to post these when it arrived on Wednesday but was too busy drooling on it - good thing, that 300M WR...










Lume after a charge from the Microstream:










Once it settled in, it stayed like this for a while and was still readable yesterday morning:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

^
I sort of regret not picking this up.
Its cool that from a distance it looks plain white, but up close you get that unique texture!


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Not convinced, but thought it worth a look









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Not convinced, but thought it worth a look
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My v.2 Oberon case with reject Santa Fe dial and enamel snowflake hands:










New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Better:









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Leekster (Aug 7, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> Not sure if this is what you want, Doc. Yobokies BOR on a Seiko diver.


nope.

I would disagree. JMHO

Please excuse spelling errors...I'm not very smart.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

docvail said:


> Wait until the Barracudas get delivered.


Now that's just taunting for all of us patiently waiting on our Barracudas to come.



Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I didn't put it up for you. Doc asked to see one and I showed it to him.



Leekster said:


> nope.
> 
> I would disagree. JMHO
> 
> Please excuse spelling errors...I'm not very smart.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

hwa said:


> Better:


I like. That is a fine mod.


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

*Scorpène* Saturday......









-- and --









:think: _My favorite one of the NTH 'Subs'....

|>|>_


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Good night!


----------



## Leekster (Aug 7, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> I didn't put it up for you. Doc asked to see one and I showed it to him.


Absolutely!! I get it.

You expressed an opinion you liked that bracelet better.

I disagree. I like the one he designed the watch with better. It seems more organic to the design.

But hey, we all have different design opinions. I probably should have restrained myself from commenting.

My apologies.

Please excuse spelling errors...I'm not very smart.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

No problem, Leekster.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Williamsburg, VA.
> 
> I specifically told my sons to NOT do the "Trump Face"...
> 
> New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


Nice, I haven't been there since I was a kid but when my daughter is older it is definitely the plan to go back.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Leekster said:


> Absolutely!! I get it.
> 
> You expressed an opinion you liked that bracelet better.
> 
> ...


I may be wrong, but I don't think it was his opinion. I think he was just posting the pic I asked for.


----------



## Leekster (Aug 7, 2015)

docvail said:


> I may be wrong, but I don't think it was his opinion. I think he was just posting the pic I asked for.


Ahhh... My misunderstanding.

I'll sit down now.










Please excuse spelling errors...I'm not very smart.


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

First time to put the orthos on its ss bracelet!









Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

yankeexpress said:


>


Is that the vintage black next to the vintage blue Amphion?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

Is this the prototype or have you received yours? I think I'll be keeping mine, when it arrives in the bracelet for a while.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Proco2020 said:


> Is this the prototype or have you received yours? I think I'll be keeping mine, when it arrives in the bracelet for a while.


Prototype.


----------



## tissotguy (Oct 31, 2014)

Hey doc, just want to say congratulation on the Quill and Pad article. The NTH Antilles made the cut! Something that you and the owners here can be proud off.
Keep the creativity going.

Cheers :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Meanwhile, at Chris's house...










New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tissotguy said:


> Hey doc, just want to say congratulation on the Quill and Pad article. The NTH Antilles made the cut! Something that you and the owners here can be proud off.
> Keep the creativity going.
> 
> Cheers :-!


Cheers.

That's John Keil, a fellow I met at the Diver's Watches FB group GTG up in NY back in April. He's worked for several Swiss brands over the last 20-ish years, and is starting a new online site, Home - WatchGauge, a hybrid e-store/blog/video review site.

It's currently in a sort of "soft opening" status, I think, but I liked the sound of it when he told me about it in April.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, I'm not screwing around. 

The NTH Tropics are now sold out. I seriously doubt I'll ever make any more. I love my two. You didn't get one? Good luck on f29.

I'm getting really close to being sold out on everything else. Word must have gotten out that we make a good product, sell it at a fair price, and back it up with great service. 

If you're thinking about getting an NTH Sub, or any of the Lew & Huey models, this is your last call. 

We just got the Näcken Modern Blue in and QC'd it today. We should be shipping them by the end of the week. We should have the Barracuda shipping by early next week. Once those wrist-shots start popping up here, and on FB and IG, we generally see another spike in sales. 

With each version of these newer models (including date/no-date options), we're typically producing them in VERY small numbers - I'm talking as few as 10 to as many as 75 or 100. 

Even with our older L&H models, The highest number we've produced of any version of anything is just 200. Most have been produced in lower production numbers, usually around 100-150.

I don't foresee making more of anything we've already made (with the possible exception of the Näcken Modern Black), for multiple reasons. I do a fairly good job of gauging market demand for what we produce, and when it comes to the production queue, I generally like to make something a little different, rather than make something just like what we've already made. 

If I'm sold out of everything a month from now, don't be that guy who emails me to complain that I've got nothing in stock, the guy who emails to ask me when I'll make more of something we had available for a year or two but just sold out, or the guy who emails to ask if I've got one piece of something stuffed under my desk. 

When this stuff is gone, it's gone. You snooze, you lose.


----------



## Leekster (Aug 7, 2015)

So is it too late to give you a couple design suggestions?

Please excuse spelling errors...I'm not very smart.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Cuda prototype landed today, more pics soon 









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## PunOnePunAll (Oct 16, 2013)

EL_GEEk said:


> Cuda prototype landed today, more pics soon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sexy


----------



## ser_eloc (May 3, 2014)

EL_GEEk said:


> Cuda prototype landed today, more pics soon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Darn it, stop making me want to buy a Barracuda, one NTH should be enough for me!

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

ser_eloc said:


> one NTH should be enough for me!


Who are you kidding?



















"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Guys, I'm not screwing around.
> [..]
> If you're thinking about getting an NTH Sub, or any of the Lew & Huey models, this is your last call.


Thanks for the warning. One vintage blue amphion less 

Even with the non-discounted price, and int'l shipping taxes, the build quality (fit and finish, all that) is worth it. And I've been missing the santa cruz I let go quite a bit (but the VBA will be easier to wear due to darker dial). Plus checking in every now and then on f29 for "nth", and not that many are up for sale as I had expected (especially in europe).

Glad to hear that your back-inventory (whatever the pro term is) is getting cleared out as well. Looking forward to whatever comes next after the devilray... As long as you can keep your factories producing at the subs' quality level, you'll do well


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

ser_eloc said:


> ... one NTH should be enough for me!


Uhh, yeah - no.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

I'm digging it...









Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> I'm digging it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nnnnnnoooooooo!!!!!

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

A straight end-link jubilee in place of our beautiful beads of rice?

Some people just have no decency.

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> A straight end-link jubilee in place of our beautiful beads of rice?
> 
> Some people just have no decency.
> 
> New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


I like the angles a bit more. And I eat too much rice as it is...

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> I like the angles a bit more. And I eat too much rice as it is...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk












New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


Hey don't you be givin me that bedroom eye...you know how I get



Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Hey don't you be givin me that bedroom eye...you know how I get
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk












New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


Lil horny are we?

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Lil horny are we?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk












New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


Kinky!🤣

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

As much as I try to not comment on what makes others happy around here I have to agree (sorry) that is a strange choice kp. Not only is the bracelet already great on the Tropics but you also lost the fitted end links for straight which looks :-s I do however respect fellow watch enthusiasts choices so rock on sir. I will try -x) to not judge thee.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> As much as I try to not comment on what makes others happy around here I have to agree (sorry) that is a strange choice kp. Not only is the bracelet already great on the Tropics but you also lost the fitted end links for straight which looks :-s I do however respect fellow watch enthusiasts choices so rock on sir. I will try -x) to not judge thee.


Eh no harm no foul. My taste is just that. Mine. Where the majority may not like it, I may find it appealing.

I personally am not a fan of the BoR but it doesn't mean I'll never use it. Just didn't speak to me.

I enjoy the dramatic angles I like the case and view btw the lugs. But that's my personal preference. Yes I'm weird but most who know me already know how I work.

This goes through to my job. Even in finance you can get funky and weird to an extent. That's what makes me go to work everyday.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> Eh no harm no foul. My taste is just that. Mine. Where the majority may not like it, I may find it appealing.
> 
> I personally am not a fan of the BoR but it doesn't mean I'll never use it. Just didn't speak to me.
> 
> ...


I am not sayign I would make the change but i understand the logic. Straight end jubilees look cool on a watch with vintage inspirations to me.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Oh man, I don't know why I didn't get that orthos before. Most dials look best in certain lighting (usually day light) and dull in other lighting conditions. This literally looks stunning in any condition  by far the most striking dial in my collection.
Love the bezel. It isn't easy to grip, but the look of that edge makes up for it, and it's the nicest bezel action of any of my watches.
Only complaint I had is that the 12h marker is one piece instead of two, beveled in-between; but after wearing it for a few days, I think I'm getting used to it and doesn't bother me as much anymore. 
The size feels better also without the bracelet - it's right on the borders of my comfort zone now.










Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> Oh man, I don't know why I didn't get that orthos before. Most dials look best in certain lighting (usually day light) and dull in other lighting conditions. This literally looks stunning in any condition  by far the most striking dial in my collection.
> Love the bezel. It isn't easy to grip, but the look of that edge makes up for it, and it's the nicest bezel action of any of my watches.
> *Only complaint I had is that the 12h marker is one piece instead of two, beveled in-between*; but after wearing it for a few days, I think I'm getting used to it and doesn't bother me as much anymore.
> The size feels better also without the bracelet - it's right on the borders of my comfort zone now.
> Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


My initial intent was for the 12 marker to be be two pieces, not one. I'm looking at my original drawings now, and I see they could be interpreted either way.

I seem to recall (or may just be imagining) a conversation with the factory about it, wherein we gave some consideration to the possibility that they could end up being slightly mis-aligned, as they sometimes are in watches at all price ranges.

I found several online discussions about it happening in watches from Orient to Chris Ward to Patek Philippe, and had several example images stored on my old computer (which recently ...... the bed on me, so I had to go looking for them again, but can't seem to find examples quite as glaring as the ones I'd had before).

I believe we deliberately made the marker that way in order to avoid the possibility.

As an example of what can go wrong with a double-index at 12:


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I found several online discussions about it happening in watches from Orient to Chris Ward to Patek Philippe, and had several example images stored on my old computer (which recently ...... the bed on me, so I had to go looking for them again, but can't seem to find examples quite as glaring as the ones I'd had before).


If they are saved on the hard drive of the old computer you could likely salvage everything off it. Remove the old hard drive and there are enclosures you can put it in to make an external hard drive. Plug into new computer and transfer everything over.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My initial intent was for the 12 marker to be be two pieces, not one. I'm looking at my original drawings now, and I see they could be interpreted either way.
> 
> I seem to recall (or may just be imagining) a conversation with the factory about it, wherein we gave some consideration to the possibility that they could end up being slightly mis-aligned, as they sometimes are in watches at all price ranges.
> 
> ...


Yah, I suspected it would be some kind of compromise like that.
Just a thought, would that be possible to solve by cutting out the positions for the markers in the dial, so the markers fit in the cutouts and will never be misaligned? I'm guessing tolerances might be an issue there (size variance in markers and cutouts).. but then again I'm often impressed by the micro scale of engineering in watches, so could also imagine those tight tolerances could be achieved. Would work in larger scale, but I'm really clueless on what is possible on such a tiny scale as watches...

Edit: or use a cutout dial like that as a mold when applying the markers during production, that should be possible. I suppose merely a 12-sided ring would suffice to align the markers. Tolerances wouldn't be an issue, since the fit of cutouts is irrelevant once mold is removed again. Though I suppose convincing your factory to do something like that is another type of issue...

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> If they are saved on the hard drive of the old computer you could likely salvage everything off it. Remove the old hard drive and there are enclosures you can put it in to make an external hard drive. Plug into new computer and transfer everything over.


I'm not worried about it. I may have deleted the images, or just can't find them. I had all the files transferred to my new laptop. If I still had them, they'd be on the new machine.

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> Yah, I suspected it would be some kind of compromise like that.
> Just a thought, would that be possible to solve by cutting out the positions for the markers in the dial, so the markers fit in the cutouts and will never be misaligned? I'm guessing tolerances might be an issue there (size variance in markers and cutouts).. but then again I'm often impressed by the micro scale of engineering in watches, so could also imagine those tight tolerances could be achieved. Would work in larger scale, but I'm really clueless on what is possible on such a tiny scale as watches...
> 
> Edit: or use a cutout dial like that as a mold when applying the markers during production, that should be possible. I suppose merely a 12-sided ring would suffice to align the markers. Tolerances wouldn't be an issue, since the fit of cutouts is irrelevant once mold is removed again. Though I suppose convincing your factory to do something like that is another type of issue...
> ...


If I had total control over production, there are a lot of things I'd like to do, but with outsourced production, they're just not feasible to attempt, not even attempt to explain.

The dials are made by specialty vendors. The applied indices are attached to the dial by hand, soldered, I think. Each index has two little feet on the underside (I believe), so in theory, misalignments shouldn't happen, but unfortunately, they can and do.

My current factory generally discounts minor misalignments as being within an acceptable range of variation, typically 0.5mm.

It's one of many such things that are commonplace/generally accepted/industry standard, yet many customers just refuse to accept, often leaving small brands like mine stuck in the gap between reality and expectations.

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> If I had total control over production, there are a lot of things I'd like to do, but with outsourced production, they're just not feasible to attempt, not even attempt to explain.
> 
> The dials are made by specialty vendors. The applied indices are attached to the dial by hand, soldered, I think. Each index has two little feet on the underside (I believe), so in theory, misalignments shouldn't happen, but unfortunately, they can and do.
> 
> ...


Hm yah, I suppose that is the reality of making affordable watches. I'd say on a Patek it should be inexcusable though...

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Btw doc, you were supposed to name all the sub models after submarines, but you went slightly off with the Amphion. Not a sub per se, but rather...








(src: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphion_(ship) ) :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Btw doc, you were supposed to name all the sub models after submarines, but you went slightly off with the Amphion. Not a sub per se, but rather...
> 
> View attachment 12412301
> 
> (src: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphion_(ship) ) :-!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphion-class_submarine

The *Amphion class (also known as the "A" class and Acheron class) of British diesel-electric submarines were designed for use in the Pacific War. Only two were completed before the end of hostilities, but following modernisation in the 1950s, they continued to serve in the Royal Navy into the 1970s.

*
I've made some mistakes, though when it comes to details that matter, not often. Generally, I'm quick to admit them, and I'm usually the first, sometimes only person to spot them. Every one of the Subs' names is in fact a class of submarine from some nation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_submarine_classes


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Pfffft. That's like the third or fourth amphion on the list. The swedish amphion is the first, so NYAH 









I do concede that it could be also named after the racehorse. Racehorses make for pretty good sub sandwich filling, no?


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphion-class_submarine
> 
> The *Amphion class (also known as the "A" class and Acheron class) of British diesel-electric submarines were designed for use in the Pacific War. Only two were completed before the end of hostilities, but following modernisation in the 1950s, they continued to serve in the Royal Navy into the 1970s.
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


>


Sometimes jokes go over my head. I'm often oblivious to subtlety.

I admit that if there was a joke there, I still don't see it.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

No jokes here, just pics of a kick @ss watch









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Karkarov said:


> I like. That is a fine mod.


Thank you. It was worth blowing the warranty for those skeleton flakes. Besides, we don't need no warranties. Doc's watches don't break. Except for when they do. And then you can just ..... all over social media and doc'll come pick it up from your house and replace it new, cuz that's how he rolls.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...the possibility that they could end up being slightly mis-aligned, as they sometimes are in watches at all price ranges.
> View attachment 12411631


Haha, i was just thinking about an obvious misalignment like this happening on one of the NTHs or L&Hs - everybody ranting about and accepting it on a PP as "handmade".

And, to share a pic:









Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Haha, i was just thinking about an obvious misalignment like this happening on one of the NTHs or L&Hs - everybody ranting about and accepting it on a PP as "handmade".
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


I had typed, then deleted part of that post, a very short (at least by my standards) mini/semi-rant, about just that.

The unfortunate truth is that I see (and sometimes receive) complaints about things which are not only reasonable in an "affordable" watch, but commonly accepted in watches that cost much more.

Obviously, I don't know for certain why it is, but I've discussed it with others here and there, and there seems to be some general agreement that my observation/opinion that it happens is in fact valid, and, of all people, that loon @chronopolis had some of the most compelling theories about it (he may be crazy, but he's not stupid).

Generally, the prevailing wisdom (combined with my own and Chronopolis's theories about it) goes like this:

1. I and many other microbrands happen to sell in a +/- $200 range around the $500 price point. For many people used to spending no more than, say, $200-$300 on a watch, something like a Seiko diver, the leap to that $500 micro-brand range represents a "step-up", not just in price, but for many, a mental step up in expectations (not necessarily unreasonably so).

Although many of those people may be accustomed to and willing to accept minor misalignments or other small issues in a $200-$300 Seiko/Citizen/Orient/whathaveyou, many of them, rightly or wrongly, consciously or unconsciously, feel that for $500, the watch ought to be "perfect". The heavens should open up and the angels sing when you get your first $500 micro-brand watch, or something like that.

2. For many of those people who are venturing outside their normal $200-$300 comfort zone, there's a certain amount of pre-purchase anxiety, which often transforms into post-purchase buyer's remorse, when they find out, even if the watch IS "perfect", it's still just a watch, and that buyer's remorse often leads them to over-analyze the watch, obsessing over the most minute details, inevitably finding some tiny imperfection, real or imaginary, reasonable to complain about or not.

3. Whereas no amount of online complaining is going to do a lick of damage to the likes of Seiko or Hamilton, it doesn't take much online chatter to damage the reputation of a small micro-brand - many, if not most of which rely heavily on discussion boards/forums and social media word-of-mouth as their primary source of sales and new customers.

As such, some people instinctively feel empowered to complain about things in micro-brands that they would otherwise overlook in more mainstream brands.

4. When you get into the psychology of "luxury" brands, "luxury" pricing, and especially if you mix in the widespread prejudices and biases the market has about "quality" - biases which are heavily influenced by the point of assembly (read: "Swiss", "German", "Japanese", or "Chinese"), you often find people willfully engaging in a level of denial/blindness that borders on clinical insanity.

As a hypothetical, yet not at all unrealistic illustrative example, there are plenty of examples of people who simply can't or won't admit there's a glaring fault in their $3000-$1000 Rolex/Omega/Bremont/Breitling/IWC/whathaveyou, and don't feel at all empowered to criticize these sacred brands, but feel entirely empowered to criticize the lowly micro-brand, because we are everyday Joe's working from home offices, not titans of horology working from ivory towers, and we're using contract manufacturers to produce our watches (like most brands do, even the mainstream brands), often in China, not in the Jura.

My generalized take/response to all that is:

1/2. There's really no such thing as "perfect" in a watch - at least not "perfection" in the absolute. If you put any watch under a microscope and look at it long enough, you'll find something "wrong" with it. If you don't find something real, you'll imagine you do.

So we need to come up with a better, more rational definition of "perfect" that helps set expectations at a reasonable level, certainly taking into account prices, as well as the realities of manufacturing a physical product, where there are going to be some tangible/perceptible variations across a 300-500 piece production run from an "affordable" micro-brand, often owing to inescapable/unavoidable manufacturing tolerances, and the realities of doing some human assembly, especially in a part of the world where "quality" is a highly subjective abstract (and I don't just mean China - talk to some micros using Swiss OEM's, and ask if they're any better).

That said, what most micros are delivering for $500 is more often than not going to rival any mainstream brand's offering at double the price or more, though I'd expect more people to argue with me than agree with me about it.

2/3. If you're stretching to buy a $500 watch from me, and it's your first foray into that price range, stop, and consider who you're buying from, especially if there's even the remotest possibility you could have some buyer's remorse, and/or you're the type to obsess over any tiny imperfection, and likely to take your private dispute to the court of public opinion.

I'm not the guy who's going to grovel and beg forgiveness because you found some 0.1% imperfection when you put a $600 watch (which you got for $400) under an electron microscope, especially not after you were wearing it for a week, and I don't buckle to the social pressure of a public shaming. I'm more likely to call you out for being dishonest in how you represent the situation (as many who attempt a public shaming often are, in my experience).

If you liked it enough to put it on and wear it, you now own it, and I'm not going to argue with you over what is or is not a "defect" at that point, or how I'll handle it.

3/4. There was a time when I wasn't confident enough in what I was doing to argue with people who came to me, complaining about stupid $h1t. That time has passed.

After producing more than 3,000 watches, QC'ing the vast majority of them myself, comparing notes with at least 3 dozen other micros, working with four different watchmakers, talking to at least a dozen factories, and seeing A LOT of MUCH more expensive "luxury" watches firsthand, many with shockingly bad fit and finish, I am supremely confident about my own expertise with regards to what "quality" in a watch means, and I don't give a $h1t when someone starts off their gripe by telling me they've owned a few dozen watches or been collecting for decades.

"Collecting for decades" or "owning dozens of watches" doesn't make anyone an expert in the matter, no more than having owned two dozen cars and having a driver's license for the last 30 years makes me an automotive engineer or a master mechanic. Taking a few karate lessons doesn't make you Chuck Norris.

Collecting for decades and owning a few dozen watches makes you a watch-geek, that's all, and there's a (very low) limit to how much abuse I'll suffer because you want to play the "I've never had this problem with a watch before" card, especially after doing 5 or 6 rounds of QC on 3,000 watches, and having a watchmaker go off on me when I brought up "sticky crowns" and other such petty nonsense.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, for anyone who's waiting on an NTH Sub (Nacken Modern Blue or Barracuda), but didn't see the email, here:

NTH Subs Pre-Order Production Update, 8/8[UNIQID].


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

Staib mesh just arrived. My only past experience with mesh has been of the 'shark' variety. This one is much dressier, and also holds its shape, which I'm still getting used to.

I think it dresses up the Antilles nicely though.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

EL_GEEk said:


> No jokes here, just pics of a kick @ss watch
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gah. Stunning.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Out of interest, has someone placed a pearl ray skin strap on a vintage-dial sub? I was thinking that the dial's bubbly texture could match well with the ray skin texture.


----------



## festus (Jul 5, 2016)

I tried searching this thread but could not find any info on replacement clasps for the Azores/Antilles. As I find the diver's extension clasp on the bracelet a bit on the thick side when diving at my desk, has anybody replaced this with a different clasp? Seems the links going into the clasp is on thicker than usual so I would think it might be troublesome. Someone with any input to this?


----------



## SquelchUSMC (Mar 10, 2015)

Love the watches Doc... and love the honesty. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

festus said:


> I tried searching this thread but could not find any info on replacement clasps for the Azores/Antilles. As I find the diver's extension clasp on the bracelet a bit on the thick side when diving at my desk, has anybody replaced this with a different clasp? Seems the links going into the clasp is on thicker than usual so I would think it might be troublesome. Someone with any input to this?


IIRC, the bracelet has larger links adjoining the bracelet, so I think your thoughts are correct. Rather than replace the clasp, I'd suggest a completely new strap/bracelet, like the mesh in the recent post. Or leather. Finding an exact clasp replacement could be challenging, but there are thousands of other straps/bracelets out there. You can always go back and forth when the need to use the divers extension suits you...


----------



## festus (Jul 5, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> IIRC, the bracelet has larger links adjoining the bracelet, so I think your thoughts are correct. Rather than replace the clasp, I'd suggest a completely new strap/bracelet, like the mesh in the recent post. Or leather. Finding an exact clasp replacement could be challenging, but there are thousands of other straps/bracelets out there. You can always go back and forth when the need to use the divers extension suits you...


I see your point and I have put it on leather and it looks good on a number of straps, however, I really like that beads of rice bracelet, it looks super sexy, but I can't stand the thick clasp. That is why I was looking to replace the clasp only. I guess getting a perfect fit with the watch is hard with a non-std bracelet...

Nobody that shares the same sentiment and that has fixed it somehow?


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

festus said:


> I tried searching this thread but could not find any info on replacement clasps for the Azores/Antilles. As I find the diver's extension clasp on the bracelet a bit on the thick side when diving at my desk, has anybody replaced this with a different clasp? Seems the links going into the clasp is on thicker than usual so I would think it might be troublesome. Someone with any input to this?


I tried to replace it with a flip lock clasp from the nth subs. It didn't fit due to the thickness of the links going into the clasp.

I ended up going the mesh route.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

Is there any common issues with the clasp failing on the NTH line? This past week I've noticed the clasp has become loose and easy to flip open. A few times I have looked at my wrist to find it open with minimal force.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ruggs said:


> Staib mesh just arrived. My only past experience with mesh has been of the 'shark' variety. This one is much dressier, and also holds its shape, which I'm still getting used to.
> 
> I think it dresses up the Antilles nicely though.
> 
> ...


Still better than a jubilee.

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Is there any common issues with the clasp failing on the NTH line? This past week I've noticed the clasp has become loose and easy to flip open. A few times I have looked at my wrist to find it open with minimal force.


Which clasp?

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Semi-related to the topics of quality and the details that matter, this may be of interest, especially if you bought an Antilles/Azores, or if you're looking for a similar tropic rubber strap:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/foun...bber-tropic-strap-2077530-4.html#post43808645

I'd taken those comparison strap pics earlier this year, or maybe it was late last year, whenever it was that we got the Tropics' straps in.

I remember being in a frame of mind to demonstrate how online discussion about quality can often be misleading, biased, etc. It seems to me that there are many such examples, of two things being compared in such a way as to suggest they're equal in quality, yet one costs significantly less, but in reality the comparison is between two things which are not really comparable at all, though you'd have to dig beneath the surface to know why.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Semi-related to the topics of quality and the details that matter, this may be of interest, especially if you bought an Antilles/Azores, or if you're looking for a similar tropic rubber strap:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/foun...bber-tropic-strap-2077530-4.html#post43808645
> 
> ...


I have one of those. 2 actually. It's a silicone strap with decent edges. The width is a bit shy of advertised though. I think it's worth the money but I wouldn't call it amazing. I also wouldn't compare it to anything above it's price range. Your pics do an awesome job of showing how the details are lost on the cheap ones at any distance.

I went to the Janis page to try and find the lengths and maybe buy one of those but they sadly aren't listed.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



idvsego said:


> I have one of those. 2 actually. It's a silicone strap with decent edges. The width is a bit shy of advertised though. I think it's worth the money but I wouldn't call it amazing. I also wouldn't compare it to anything above it's price range. Your pics do an awesome job of showing how the details are lost on the cheap ones at any distance.
> 
> I went to the Janis page to try and find the lengths and maybe buy one of those but they sadly aren't listed.


http://www.janistrading.com/20mm-tropic-rubber-strap-black/

123/80

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> http://www.janistrading.com/20mm-tropic-rubber-strap-black/
> 
> 123/80
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


Ah... I was looking in the 22mm. My bad. Now I need to find a 20mm in the watch box that I can use for some self justification.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Is there any common issues with the clasp failing on the NTH line? This past week I've noticed the clasp has become loose and easy to flip open. A few times I have looked at my wrist to find it open with minimal force.


Any clasp can loosen. On many watches I've had to tighten the flip part by squeezing them together to increase tension.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> Any clasp can loosen. On many watches I've had to tighten the flip part by squeezing them together to increase tension.


Can I assume you accomplished the "squeezing" with only a stink eye?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

docvail said:


> Which clasp?
> 
> New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


The NTH logo'd clasp. Not sure if that part has just become loose on its own or if the clasp part below is putting upward pressure on the locking part.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

hwa said:


> Can I assume you accomplished the "squeezing" with only a stink eye?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


...ooohh. The tension I can increase with stink eye...


----------



## Ossamanity (Nov 28, 2016)

EL_GEEk said:


> No jokes here, just pics of a kick @ss watch
> 
> 
> 
> ...


amazing !!! Agreed and added to my must haves list thank-you

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Ooooh yeah









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Anticipation building. Are the watches shipped from the Philly area?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)

Love this thing on perlon


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> The NTH logo'd clasp. Not sure if that part has just become loose on its own or if the clasp part below is putting upward pressure on the locking part.


That doesn't help. All the clasps have the logo, but the clasp on the Tropics is different from the clasp on the Subs, so, which clasp, or, which model?

Looks like your post had pics, but I'm not seeing them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> Anticipation building. Are the watches shipped from the Philly area?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Close enough. Lancaster area.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

docvail said:


> Close enough. Lancaster area.


Ahh, OK. Somewhere between Intercourse and Blue Balls?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> Ahh, OK. Somewhere between Intercourse and Blue Balls?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The place you describe is just south of Paradise.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/P...b079ccc0090ec3!8m2!3d40.0098226!4d-76.1285654

EDIT - this joke would work better if it were geographically correct. Technically, Blue Ball is north of Intercourse, which is north of Paradise. The only town between Blue Ball and Intercourse is New Holland, but there's nothing remotely funny about it.

Just down the road is Leacock-Leola-Bareville, which I suppose has decent potential for puns, if you want to work hard enough to come up with one, or just smirking and snickering at the name, if you don't.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

festus said:


> I tried searching this thread but could not find any info on replacement clasps for the Azores/Antilles. As I find the diver's extension clasp on the bracelet a bit on the thick side when diving at my desk, has anybody replaced this with a different clasp? Seems the links going into the clasp is on thicker than usual so I would think it might be troublesome. Someone with any input to this?


The links on either side of the clasp were designed and made to taper into the clasp's thickness better. It's unlikely you'll find a clasp that is both thinner than ours yet thick enough to accommodate those links.

New and improved Tapatalk - because making you learn new apps when there was nothing wrong with the old apps is what we do!


----------



## TradeKraft (Apr 11, 2014)

IG: Tradekraft


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TradeKraft said:


> IG: Tradekraft


If only the cerb was 40. Curses. I had the OG blacktie, but just that much too big.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TradeKraft (Apr 11, 2014)

hwa said:


> If only the cerb was 40. Curses. I had the OG blacktie, but just that much too big.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's about perfect for me, it's a beautiful watch for sure.

IG: Tradekraft


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

docvail said:


> That doesn't help. All the clasps have the logo, but the clasp on the Tropics is different from the clasp on the Subs, so, which clasp, or, which model?
> 
> Looks like your post had pics, but I'm not seeing them.


Yep, pics didn't work for some reason. Will try again later.

It is the clasp on the Nacken. The last part that folds in to "lock" the clasp down.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Yep, pics didn't work for some reason. Will try again later.
> 
> It is the clasp on the Nacken. The last part that folds in to "lock" the clasp down.


Like I said. A pair of pliers with cloth wrapped around to squeeze the clasp so that it "grabs" tighter to the portion below it....

it is a common issue with these clasps irrespective of price point or brand........with repetitive opening and closing they can loosen.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

hwa said:


> If only the cerb was 40. Curses. I had the OG blacktie, but just that much too big.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


it is a very nice watch....probably underrated as far as I'm concerned.....even though I wear it I still wish it were 40 as well. See.....we CAN agree on some things...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Yep, pics didn't work for some reason. Will try again later.
> 
> It is the clasp on the Nacken. The last part that folds in to "lock" the clasp down.





GlenRoiland said:


> Like I said. A pair of pliers with cloth wrapped around to squeeze the clasp so that it "grabs" tighter to the portion below it....
> 
> it is a common issue with these clasps irrespective of price point or brand........with repetitive opening and closing they can loosen.


^This.


----------



## Ossamanity (Nov 28, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Happy Fannum Phrydae!

Today on a Stuhrling orange/yellow leather strap that I distressed abit.





















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

...









Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Nice strap! I had a PVD Khaki Fannum, and I really regret letting it go.



azsuprasm said:


> Happy Fannum Phrydae!
> 
> Today on a Stuhrling orange/yellow leather strap that I distressed abit.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gisae (Dec 30, 2012)

First off, I'm a stickler for details. I am aware that my perspective on a lot of thing is far more 'demanding' than most people. So don't take it as criticism, I know a lot of people really enjoy this watch.

There are a few point for me that made the Yobokies better in my opinion;
1. The edges of the links are more rounded, making it less prone to dig into your wrist.
2. The brushed finish is more refined all-round (especially side en back of the bracelet which look and feel 'rough' on the antilles).
3. The clasp, although it has a cheaper feel, isn't as humongous. I know the antilles one is 'premium' but it looks out of place/balance with the rest of the watch and it has really sharp edges.

On the picture below you can see the edges of the links are polished and rounded and the links themselves have the same roundness front and back. My wrists really appreciate that, as they do the clasp.









In the end, the clasp was the decisive reason I've put mine up for sale. A shame since I really looked forward to the watch, especially with the BOR bracelet.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Legends Prototype on KVLR from Panatime


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Gisae said:


> First off, I'm a stickler for details. I am aware that my perspective on a lot of thing is far more 'demanding' than most people. So don't take it as criticism, I know a lot of people really enjoy this watch.
> 
> There are a few point for me that made the Yobokies better in my opinion;
> 1. The edges of the links are more rounded, making it less prone to dig into your wrist.
> ...


I don't own a Yobokies, so please excuse my ignorance......and, seriously, I'm not criticizing. I'm thinking about my preferences.

1. Are those end links hollow?

2. Are those push pins?

3. Do the BOR have a convex surface on the wrist side?


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Sorry for derailing this thread temporarily but I must say that I'm surprised that not a lot of people have posted pictures of their new subs. I'm particularly interested in the Dark Gilt Amphion as I'm convinced that it's the winner in the latest round. That and the blue Nacken. 

Sorry, you may resume posting about bracelets and clasps.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

A sub and couple others as per request for watch pictures. Also, to fit into the other recent topic, I can confirm that each of these came on a bracelet with a clasp and the clasps all work and are proportionally fine for me.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm normally not a big fan of white/light faced watches, but I'd buy this configuration if it was ever offered.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

applejosh said:


> I'm normally not a big fan of white/light faced watches, but I'd buy this configuration if it was ever offered.


Hold that thought! I don't keep much for long...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Amphion Vintage Blue









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orthos ii...









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## pop4 (Jul 10, 2015)

Tanjecterly said:


> Sorry for derailing this thread temporarily but I must say that I'm surprised that not a lot of people have posted pictures of their new subs. I'm particularly interested in the Dark Gilt Amphion as I'm convinced that it's the winner in the latest round. That and the blue Nacken.


I posted two shots in the other NTH thread, but hope this will do |>

This one's been getting a lot of wrist time since I got it a few days ago; I'm really liking the gilt look.


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)




----------



## larkja (Mar 29, 2016)

Okay, please understand I'm not trying to pick a fight here. Just trying to get some clarity.

Was finally able to find a nice, pre-owned black Nacken no date (a couple months old). It's very accurate (running about +2 secs/day) Love the size, the thickness, and the overall look. My problem/issue is with the bezel action. It's very precise, lines up well, and there is no backplay, but it's not tight - as in, I have bumped it a few times and it has moved on me.

Is there a fix so that I can tighten it up? My plan was to use the watch swimming, and snorkeling, and I use the bezel all the time from timing my swims to the meat on the bbq  Not saying it's a mess, but if I slide my hand in my pocket, and the bezel rubs against the jeans, it will move.

Thanks all


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

I have a Näcken Vintage Blue (used) in the mail, and I'm pretty excited. Does anyone know what size screwdriver the bracelet takes to remove links? I have pretty skinny wrists (6.5) so I'm probably going to have to remove a few. I would like to get the right fit before I leave town for a few days, as I'm only bringing one watch with me.


----------



## nemorior (Jan 1, 2017)

Azores on a matching Perlon strap. Really like that watch and wears very comfortably.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I really like the pictures of the Amphion Dark Gilt so thank you!

By the by, it'd be neat to have an Amphion Blue Modern with yellow vintage lume.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

larkja said:


> Okay, please understand I'm not trying to pick a fight here. Just trying to get some clarity.
> 
> Was finally able to find a nice, pre-owned black Nacken no date (a couple months old). It's very accurate (running about +2 secs/day) Love the size, the thickness, and the overall look. My problem/issue is with the bezel action. It's very precise, lines up well, and there is no backplay, but it's not tight - as in, I have bumped it a few times and it has moved on me.
> 
> ...


Dental floss trick.

Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

smkader said:


> I have a Näcken Vintage Blue (used) in the mail, and I'm pretty excited. Does anyone know what size screwdriver the bracelet takes to remove links? I have pretty skinny wrists (6.5) so I'm probably going to have to remove a few. I would like to get the right fit before I leave town for a few days, as I'm only bringing one watch with me.


1.2mm, I think.

Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Some Cuda love...









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like."

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## pop4 (Jul 10, 2015)

smkader said:


> I have a Näcken Vintage Blue (used) in the mail, and I'm pretty excited. Does anyone know what size screwdriver the bracelet takes to remove links? I have pretty skinny wrists (6.5) so I'm probably going to have to remove a few. I would like to get the right fit before I leave town for a few days, as I'm only bringing one watch with me.


I used a 1.2mm screwdriver to resize my bracelet with great success. I've got a 6.5" wrist as well, and just to give you a feel of how many links to remove, I ended up removing everything but 1 full link and 2x half links. I could've used 2 full links, but the bracelet felt better with 1.5 links on one side and a half link on the other.


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

pop4 said:


> I used a 1.2mm screwdriver to resize my bracelet with great success. I've got a 6.5" wrist as well, and just to give you a feel of how many links to remove, I ended up removing everything but 1 full link and 2x half links. I could've used 2 full links, but the bracelet felt better with 1.5 links on one side and a half link on the other.


Wait, you replied in the Tudor BB thread to me a few days ago! Sounds like we have a similar taste in watches.


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

If anyone had a change of heart on a Nacken modern blue they ordered please let me know.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#jubilee










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Amphion Dark Gilt now sold out.



mplsabdullah said:


> If anyone had a change of heart on a Nacken modern blue they ordered please let me know.


Or, and I'm just spit-ballin' here, you could buy one of the 6 pieces I have left, to make sure you get one.

Just sayin'...


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Don't confuse us with logic Doc. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

Really loving the blue in natural light. I can't stop staring at it!


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

smkader said:


> Really loving the blue in natural light. I can't stop staring at it!


Congrats

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaannnnndddd....we're down to one last piece of the Näcken Vintage Black.

Only 50 pieces of that model were made, between the two production runs. I doubt we'll make more, at least no time soon.

Combining date and no-date options for each model, each version of the Subs were made in quantities ranging from just 10 pieces to as many as 100 (based largely on how they sold in pre-order, plus how quickly they sold out), but typically around 50 pieces per version. 

I don't refer to them as "Limited Editions" because there's always the possibility, however unlikely, that I might make more at some point in the future, and because "Limited Edition" usually suggests there's something "special" that separates them from the "regular" model.

That said, I've got other ideas for other Subs versions which we're working on for the future, and after seeing how each version has sold, I think producing 50 of each version, on average, seems to be about the right number for where my business meets the market. I don't know if we'll make any more of any NTH Subs before next year.

Candidly, I don't make these posts because I'm concerned about moving the last 1 or 2 pieces of this model or that model. I make them here - and usually, ONLY here - because you guys are the ones reading this thread, presumably to keep up with what my company is doing, and as such, I want to make sure anyone reading this thread doesn't "miss out" (and because I don't relish the "do you have any more of this long sold-out model" emails, or the "you should make more _____, because I want one" suggestions, as if three people wanting one justifies another 300-piece production run).

I couldn't help but notice used values for the NTH Subs have started to creep up. That's good. I hope it's at least in part because people understand that although we sold a good number of NTH Subs in total, each version was only made and sold in very small quantities, so the likelihood of finding the particular one you want used but in good condition is somewhat low. I just did a search on WatchRecon. Of the 11 Subs versions produced (and delivered) so far, there have only been 6 versions up for sale, and of those, just 1 piece each for 4 of them, and only 2 pieces of the other 2 versions.

Don't say I didn't give you plenty of notice or opportunity to purchase.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I had planned to jump when they where still at $575 and missed that boat by a couple days. First world problems. Everyone please quickly take out your tiny violins. :-x


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Appreciate the heads up, Doc! 
Unfortunately the subs weren't love at first sight for me, but as time goes by I have warmed up to them. Significantly. 
The vintage black Näcken is probably my favorite, just based on the pictures. That, or one of the blue ones. However this isn't the best timing financially. That's life though. 
Luckily it's a very temporary situation so If there's ever a new production run, I won't waste my chance twice.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

it is the best timing financially . good watch is like a dog - it will be happy to be with you every hour, may be with you everywhere and in any situation and even if you get poorer, you will not think of selling it, and subs are made to be comfortably with you in any aspect like that . don't think of value and margin only, it must be on the second place, i know what you mean. and this is not life, so one may get get a real life.
got my nacken vintage black about a week ago which was bought for me by my friend in the US and i know what i am talking about. 

Doc did a great job in metal and customer service


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> Appreciate the heads up, Doc!
> Unfortunately the subs weren't love at first sight for me, but as time goes by I have warmed up to them. Significantly.
> The vintage black Näcken is probably my favorite, just based on the pictures. That, or one of the blue ones. However this isn't the best timing financially. That's life though.
> Luckily it's a very temporary situation so If there's ever a new production run, I won't waste my chance twice.
> ...


I understand, and as we sometimes say here in the USA, I ain't mad at you.

Much of life is "timing", and often, the timing of things seems coincidental. Part of the reason I posted what I did above is because earlier today I saw some discussion on facebook, about micro-brands which sell out of some model, but don't make more of it, and how sad that makes people.

This is NOT directed at you, nor anyone here in particular, but it would be awesome if all the people who want to give me and other micro-brand owners advice about how we run our businesses had the first clue about how we run our businesses. Most clearly don't, and are thus working on severely faulty assumptions.

If I had a nickle for every person who thinks pre-orders are the Devil's step-children, or that I should charge 40% less than what I am (which is like the difference between earning minimum wage and being a slave. Anyone here want to be a slave? No? Didn't think so), or that I should make a handful of models a permanent part of our product range, and make them forever (or make a model with Tritium*, or sell watches without the straps, or make things smaller than 38mm or larger than 44mm, or any number of other equally unworkable ideas), I could just retire on all those nickels, and not have to worry about it all anymore.

I don't expect the armchair-quarterbacks or volunteer/uninvited consulting to stop, and I've lost the energy to argue with all of them, so I've cut way back on my online arguing, and I'll likely be commenting about this stuff less, and limiting my comments about such stuff to this thread and its successors, plus the odd Facebook discussion, if/when I see it, and feel like it's worth adding my $0.02 (it usually isn't).

Anyway - NTH Subs, and all the other stuff we've made so far, inventory is getting low. Don't be the guy to email me with some sob story about having a flat tire and not being able to get to your computer the 6-8 months (or 2 years) we had all this stuff available. I'd sooner hit you over the head with that violin than play it for you (and, with my musical talents, trust me, it'd sound better).

*Also, don't be the guy who takes my once-per-year mention of Tritium as an excuse to ask me why I don't make a Tritium watch. I've been over it before, done it to death. Suffice to say I won't do it, and if you need a reason, here - Tritium sucks (that's not the reason, but if you absolutely need one, it's as good as any) - now leave me alone about it. I've got places to kill and people to visit...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Goddamitall. 

I actually had a different reason for coming back to this thread, but saw the responses to my earlier post, got sidetracked responding to them, and forgot about it...

Those of you who've been waiting on a Nacken Modern Blue or Barracuda - they're all in the warehouse, and it appears all the orders are being processed for shipping, as of earlier today. I expect you'll all start getting tracking notifications over the next 24-48 hours, unless you've requested a hold on your order.


----------



## Jake West (Jan 13, 2017)

docvail said:


> Goddamitall.
> 
> I actually had a different reason for coming back to this thread, but saw the responses to my earlier post, got sidetracked responding to them, and forgot about it...
> 
> Those of you who've been waiting on a Nacken Modern Blue or Barracuda - they're all in the warehouse, and it appears all the orders are being processed for shipping, as of earlier today. I expect you'll all start getting tracking notifications over the next 24-48 hours, unless you've requested a hold on your order.


Now that's the post I've been waiting for. Thanks Doc! Looking forward to getting my Modern Blue.


----------



## EveryDayisSunday (Aug 3, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Well, the 10,000+ post L&H thread is closed. Doc asked for a new one, as he's on the verge of posting his new stuff. I've had the honor of getting to wear the Oberon proto for a few days, AND I got to see a sneak peek of the new line. It's awesome.
> 
> So, let the fun begin...
> 
> ...


Hey, I'm new here and far be it from me to throw stones, but what am I missing? These NTH watches seem to be clones with $89 Japanese movements that have loud rotors. Are these really worth 6 bills? Not knocking, just asking.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> Hey, I'm new here and far be it from me to throw stones, but what am I missing? These NTH watches seem to be clones with $89 Japanese movements that have loud rotors. Are these really worth 6 bills? Not knocking, just asking.


There quite a few reviews on here.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> Hey, I'm new here and far be it from me to throw stones, but what am I missing? These NTH watches seem to be clones with $89 Japanese movements that have loud rotors. Are these really worth 6 bills? Not knocking, just asking.


Since you quoted me, I'll answer. I see by your sig, you've got an Omega. I have three. Great watches. I have two NTH. Great watches. But from your line of questioning, I'm thinking you don't like the 9015, and don't want an homage to the Sub. If that's the case, I wouldn't stop here. There's nothing that anyone can say to change your mind. From the way you framed your question, you're knocking, not asking. And you wouldn't like most of what's in F71. Maybe go hit up F2 or F74.


----------



## EveryDayisSunday (Aug 3, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> From the way you framed your question, you're knocking, not asking. And you wouldn't like most of what's in F71. Maybe go hit up F2 or F74.


F71? F2? F74? I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe that is a good thing. Nevertheless, I assume that this forum is open to frank discussion. The 9015 is a decent, but very low end movement that can be purchased for $89 if you buy one, and probably much, much less if you purchase in bulk. It is way cheaper to replace it than to service it which means that most watches using this movement have a shelf life. All I asked is if a clone sub with little originality outfitted with a cheap movement is worth 6 bills? Sorry if I offended. These watches seem to have a nice following. I'm just asking what justifies the value? If there is something substantive that I am missing I am all ears. You will find me a fair person who will stand corrected if the facts prove me wrong.

PS by the way, I only quoted you because you started the thread. Nothing personal.


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> F71? F2? F74? I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe that is a good thing. Nevertheless, I assume that this forum is open to frank discussion. The 9015 is a decent, but very low end movement that can be purchased for $89 if you buy one, and probably much, much less if you purchase in bulk. It is way cheaper to replace it than to service it which means that most watches using this movement have a shelf life. All I asked is if a clone sub with little originality outfitted with a cheap movement is worth 6 bills? Sorry if I offended. These watches seem to have a nice following. I'm just asking what justifies the value? If there is something substantive that I am missing I am all ears. You will find me a fair person who will stand corrected if the facts prove me wrong.


I also don't know what F# means, but I do own an NTH. The quality is there. A super slim oyster case and wonderful bracelet, a uni bezel with zero back play, screw down crown, sapphire crystal, great lume... These are just a few things that attracted me to the watch. Also, it just looks good on the wrist. 
As far as the 9015 goes, a lot of watches in the same price range are using the movement. Take a look at the Halios for example (the seaforth uses the newer Miyota no date movement, which I believe is otherwise the same).


----------



## EveryDayisSunday (Aug 3, 2017)

smkader said:


> I also don't know what F# means, but I do own an NTH. The quality is there. A super slim oyster case and wonderful bracelet, a uni bezel with zero back play, screw down crown, sapphire crystal, great lume... These are just a few things that attracted me to the watch. Also, it just looks good on the wrist.
> As far as the 9015 goes, a lot of watches in the same price range are using the movement. Take a look at the Halios for example (the seaforth uses the newer Miyota no date movement, which I believe is otherwise the same).


OK. Fair enough. As for the 9015, those watches are using it because the ETA's are harder to get these days. I'm not sold on them. Cheap movements at ETA prices. It doesn't equal value.


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> OK. Fair enough. As for the 9015, those watches are using it because the ETA's are harder to get these days. I'm not sold on them.


Yeah I've read about problems/cost issues with the ETA. I will say that mine has been about -2s in the past two days, so it's running like a champ. As for the noise, its only noticable in a small room, and it's quieter than my Seiko Skx if that's any help.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> Are these really worth 6 bills? Not knocking, just asking.


Yes

(IMO)


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> OK. Fair enough. As for the 9015, those watches are using it because the ETA's are harder to get these days. I'm not sold on them. Cheap movements at ETA prices. It doesn't equal value.


Your post has been edited since my initial response, so can I ask why you don't like the 9015?


----------



## EveryDayisSunday (Aug 3, 2017)

smkader said:


> Your post has been edited since my initial response, so can I ask why you don't like the 9015?


Typos are a B. Anyway, in response to your question, the Miyota 9015 is pretty much a disposable movement. Although it is too new to know for sure, it will probably cost less to replace it than to service it. Who would pay a watch maker $200 to service a movement that can be replaced for $89. That is not what I want in a $600+ time piece.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> Typos are a B. Anyway, in response to your question, the Miyota 9015 is pretty much a disposable movement. Although it is too new to know for sure, it will probably cost less to replace it than to service it. Who would pay a watch maker $200 to service a movement that can be replaced for $89. That is not what I want in a $600+ time piece.


You'd rather pay $200 to service a movement in a $600 watch? I'll wait while you let that logic work its way through you.

The 9015 isn't the same cost as the ETA 2824-2, it's slightly less, but its bang for the buck is much higher, IMO.

The ETA needs to be serviced no less than every seven years. At $210 per service, that adds $30/year to your ownership costs.

The 9015 is likely to run well for decades. Yes, its price makes it essentially disposable, by design, which is a good thing. What's your additional ownership costs with a $90 movement that will run well for decades? If you get 20-30 years out of it, you've more than gotten your money's worth.

Candidly, you either get it or you don't. If you don't, no hard feelings, but also no need to put it down. 2488 happy customers can't be wrong.

Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

docvail said:


> ... 2488 happy customers can't be wrong.


...no, but we can certainly be a pain in your @$$, Doc.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

From looking at the pictures in here, I estimate that NTH owners own 5 NTH watches on average. So that would make it more like 500 extremely satisfied customers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Amphion Dark Gilt now sold out.
> 
> Or, and I'm just spit-ballin' here, you could buy one of the 6 pieces I have left, to make sure you get one.
> 
> Just sayin'...


Make that 5....


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Grumblegrumble

swedish post (or danish post, same company) is being slow, only got the watch through customs today morning. So it'll likely arrive by friday.

ANYWAYS.

Did doc post how many pieces of each sub model were produced? I saw that some were 50 unit runs, but he also mentioned 10 and 100. (also iirc this was broken down sometime ago on the first subs run, but I can't quite find that post anymore ^^)

Also, there was a question about F# stuff: that's a shorthand for the various subforums in this domain. Origin is the URL, for the affordables subforum the url ends with /f71, for dive watches the url ends with /f74, and the "main" subforum (General) is /f2. Hence, locals often refer to these subforums by f2/f71/f74.

P.S. Some of the photos of Santa Fe, the dial reminds me of the surface of the moon. You could def use that same bubble-lume-dial to make a 'moonwatch' thing.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> F71? F2? F74? I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe that is a good thing. Nevertheless, I assume that this forum is open to frank discussion. The 9015 is a decent, but very low end movement that can be purchased for $89 if you buy one, and probably much, much less if you purchase in bulk. It is way cheaper to replace it than to service it which means that most watches using this movement have a shelf life. All I asked is if a clone sub with little originality outfitted with a cheap movement is worth 6 bills? Sorry if I offended. These watches seem to have a nice following.  I'm just asking what justifies the value? If there is something substantive that I am missing I am all ears. You will find me a fair person who will stand corrected if the facts prove me wrong.
> 
> PS by the way, I only quoted you because you started the thread. Nothing personal.


Fair enough. Others have jumped in, but here's my thought: My Omegas need a service every 5-7 years. I use Nesbits FWS. Highly recommend them, BTW. Costs $550. Does that amount sound familiar? That's about what an NTH costs. I can get a new one of these for the cost of a service. Both of my 9015s are running about +4 on the wrist. I never hear the rotor unless I spin it right by my ear. So, as to value: $100 movement (including shipping), $100 Sapphire (cost from yobokies installed), $100 case, $100 bracelet, $50 travel box... That's about what you're paying. Now, why an NTH over the other 1000 micro-brands? These particular watches, the subs, aren't direct homages. As for me, I prefer that. I have the Santa Fe, which hearkens back to the Tag Night Diver, which has been out of production for years. Even more important to me is the size. For some reason most modern micros tend to make 44mm by 15mm watches. Too big. Easier to make, as thickness gives you depth rating. These are 40mm by 11.5. 300 meters. The only other watch that close is the Glycine, which doesn't promise 300m. If you looked at all the other micros out there, you'd see that most cost within 5-10%, and none have the specs of these. If you held one, you'd see how well they're made.

As to F2, F74: each section of this forum has a label. This section is F71, called Affordables. Conventional wisdom says the watches discussed in here cost less than $1000. Coming in and asking why we like what we're buying, and implying that it is substandard, is basically making the implication that our decision is poor. You could have said "what's the attraction?" without the judgement. It's like walking into a busy restaurant and asking "why are you eating here, the food's bad?" If you ask the Rolex section if they'd buy an affordable, you'll get scathing responses. You're much more likely to find a Rolex owner in F71, but they also love the micros. Me included. Like the restaurant analogy, it makes for a varied diet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> From looking at the pictures in here, I estimate that NTH owners own 5 NTH watches on average. So that would make it more like 500 extremely satisfied customers
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was counting all happy customers from all models we've produced, taking into account those who purchase multiple pieces, and netting out the dozen people we couldn't please.

If you just want the number for the NTH Subs, it's probably closer to 450, considering those who've purchased multiples.

Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Make that 5....


Actually, 3.

Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Grumblegrumble
> 
> swedish post (or danish post, same company) is being slow, only got the watch through customs today morning. So it'll likely arrive by friday.
> 
> ...


I didn't break down specific numbers for each version. I don't care to.

It's 10-100 pieces each, typically around 50-55.

Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## EveryDayisSunday (Aug 3, 2017)

docvail said:


> You'd rather pay $200 to service a movement in a $600 watch? I'll wait while you let that logic work its way through you.
> 
> The 9015 isn't the same cost as the ETA 2824-2, it's slightly less, but its bang for the buck is much higher, IMO.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response. OK, so to distill this down from your own words (with my responses):

You: "The 9015 isn't the same cost as the ETA 2824-2, it's slightly less" 
Me: But the NTH watches are at a price point equal to, or higher than watches with the ETA; example the Steinhart Ocean 1 which today sells for about $445.


You: "The 9015 is likely to run well for decades"
Me: We hope, but this is a guess. We have no way of knowing this.

You: "Yes, its price makes [the 9015] essentially disposable"
Me: We agree... its a disposable watch.

You: "Candidly, you either get it or you don't"
Me: I totally get it. No service costs for the disposable 9015 may save money in the long run. Then again, it may not, There is no track record. What we do know is that ETA movements are established, reliable, and available in lower costing watches equal in quality, or perhaps better than NTH. So the question stands, is NTH worth 6 bills in light of what you have admitted about it being a disposable watch which may, or may not last for years?

Finally, I do not harbor, nor do I wish to invoke hard feelings. I simply brought up a point regarding value and movement quality. These are fair points given what you are asking for your watches.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Worth is in the eye of the beholder. 

Do you want Doc to say no? Even if it is not a good deal why would he admit it.

Do you want owners of these watches to say no? They bought them so I would have to think they like em.

Do you want non-owners to say yes or no? You came into a Nth/Janis trading thread asking us all what we think? see above.

Do you want to know why I bought 1? Where else can you buy an item and talk directly to the Owner/Designer/Media exec/..........

All you have to do is troll a bit more to find out that Doc has at the very least, passion for what he is doing. Is it Passion for the Watches? Is it passion to care for feeding and caring for his Family? I do not care what it is, I will drink the kool-aid. At least he made it with passion.

So buy 1 or not. But do not come here and question the value of a watch because, value is truly an individual feeling/thinking.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Let's not confuse a movement with a watch, eh? There's *some* value also in all those other bits and bobs that cover up the 9015/2824-2, and that value can (and does) also differ between various watches. "Disposable" here merely means that replacing it is cheaper than repairing it.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> Thanks for your response. OK, so to distill this down from your own words (with my responses):
> 
> You: "The 9015 isn't the same cost as the ETA 2824-2, it's slightly less"
> Me: But the NTH watches are at a price point equal to, or higher than watches with the ETA; example the Steinhart Ocean 1 which today sells for about $445.
> ...


whoooo
here we go

how many times does it have to be said...'a watch is more than the sum of a bunch of parts'









'but...but...but...it doesn't have the whoopdeedoo123 movement'

enjoy the watches


----------



## KJRye (Jul 28, 2014)

Interesting to see how different some peoples opinions are in regards to disposab-ility being good/bad.

The way I see it...say I'm looking at buying a $30k new car, and have 2 options when it comes to the engine, both of which have the same measurable performance:

1. Engine package 1 costs me $10k in repairs every 7 years.
2. Engine package 2 can be totally replaced with a new one for $5k, is likely to last as long as engine #1, and may even last longer before needing replacement

Why would anyone ever choose option #1 over option #2!?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> Thanks for your response. OK, so to distill this down from your own words (with my responses):
> 
> You: "The 9015 isn't the same cost as the ETA 2824-2, it's slightly less"
> Me: But the NTH watches are at a price point equal to, or higher than watches with the ETA; example the Steinhart Ocean 1 which today sells for about $445.
> ...


These are fair points regardless of what I'm asking for my watches. They're also fair points if you just feel like trolling. They're fair points if I want to question what makes your luxury-brand watch worth thousands of dollars, considering it's not likely to appreciate in value, and doesn't tell time appreciably better than my watch, which only costs hundreds of dollars, or some other watch, which can be purchased for $50.

There's more to a watch than the movement. When you buy any watch, you're (hopefully) buying a "complete package" - top design, top specs, top components, top quality, top service.

You can find "better" movements in watches costing less, just as you can find "worse" movements in watches costing more. Most companies, mine included, set prices according to what they believe the market will accept as the true value of their "complete package", taking into account all factors above, as well as their costs, brand reputation, need to earn a profit, etc. Sometimes, those companies mis-price things, on the low side, or the high side, and will eventually suffer the consequences of making bad business decisions.

I'd dispute that the ETA 2824-2 is "better". It's a "proven" design because of its "track record"? Really?

It's a decades-old design that still has known hand-winding issues, has about a 3% defect rate from the manufacturer, can be called "Swiss Made" even if 100% of the parts are made in China, doesn't keep time better than or have a power reserve equal to the 9015, and requires expensive servicing no less often than every 7 years.

THAT'S its track record, in a nutshell. But, but, but...it's "Swiss", and so...reasons, not racism, it MUST be better, right?

That's marketing.

The Swiss watch-making industry was almost destroyed by the quartz revolution/crisis. What saved them was the genius idea to re-position mechanical watches (_*SWISS *_mechanical watches) as luxury items, a little piece of old-world craftsmanship, identifying the wearer as a sophisticated man of wealth and taste. They've invested billions in perpetuating that image with lifestyle marketing, celebrity endorsements, event sponsorships, and ludicrous nonsense, all while steadily moving production overseas, to China, and devaluing the "Swiss Made" label.

I'm a pragmatist. Spending upwards of $200 to service a $600 watch doesn't make much sense to me. I think I'm like many people, in that I'm more likely to NOT have it serviced, and simply sell it on to someone else, so it becomes their problem, or, if I keep it, just let it run until it stops, which isn't going to be decades, you can be sure.

Am I certain the 9015 will run for decades without servicing? Nope. But there are thousands of vintage, never-been-serviced watches with Seiko and Miyota movements available on ebay and elsewhere, and have been for years. Know what they all have in common? They're all still running, despite not being serviced.

Given the track records of these Japanese movements, compared to the known issues and maintenance requirements of the Swiss movements, I'd bet a dollar to a donut that the 9015 runs for MUCH longer without service than the 2824-2.

I said the movements are essentially disposable. You misquoted me (deliberately, I believe) by saying the watch is disposable. That's not technically true, so long as replacement movements are available. However, I'll play your game - assume a replacement movement can't be located when the first movement begins performing poorly. What then?

Well, if I'm going to concede that a replacement isn't available, I'm also going to maintain that the time when the first movement fails AND a replacement isn't going to be available is going to be sometime pretty far in the future.

How far? I dunno, but surely 10 years, if not 20 or 30. If you spent $600 for the watch, and got 10 years of service out of it, then it cost you $60/year. If you got 30 years of service, it cost you $20/year.

I can buy an el-cheapo $20-$60 watch which might last me a year or two before I toss it out and buy a new one, or I can step up to something of much better quality, specs and components, perhaps something with a better design, which gives me a stronger sense of pride in ownership.

Again, what's the service cost on a 2824-2, if you can even find a watchmaker to service one? It's not like watchmakers are as plentiful as Starbucks. One of the "biggest" schools here in the USA turns out about 5 or 6 graduates per year, most of whom get sucked up by the big, luxury-brand repair networks. There are only a handful of watchmaking schools at that. Good, independent watchmakers who take in new work, happily, and turn that work around quickly are as rare as hen's teeth. They're retiring and dying at a faster rate than we can produce new ones to replace them.

Where I am, the only decent watchmaker for at least an hour in every direction charges about $250 to do a basic 7-year service. He's only open 3 days per week, he's fairly gruff, and takes as long as he takes to turn service work around.

But let's say it's $210, to make the math easy. That's an added $30/year in ownership costs, on top of your purchase price. You'd have to own that watch a LOOOOOONNNNGGGGG time for its ownership costs to equal, or beat, the costs associated with owning a comparable watch with the 9015 in it.

On paper, regardless of cost, I think the 9015 is a better movement than the 2824-2. It's a newer design, doesn't have any known performance or reliability issues, comes well decorated and keeps good time right out of the box, has a longer power reserve, and doesn't require expensive maintenance every 7 years. When it fails, if it does, likely decades from now, a replacement is only $100 away. What's not to like? Why on earth would I prefer the 2824-2?

I look at _*ALL*_ $600 watches as being essentially disposable, on a long enough timeline, regardless of what movement is inside them. The only question is - which movement makes more sense to use?

As for the watch's "value", that's a different question, and as I said, there's more to it than adding up the specs/components and arriving at a price. There's certainly much more to it than just comparing it to some other brand selling something vaguely similar.

There are plenty of reviews available here on Watchuseek. There are also plenty of blogger reviews (links to most/all can be found on our site), and there are hundreds of customer reviews on our site, all easily found on each product's page, all freely offered, volunteered by our happy customers. They all seem to think the watches are worth it.

Why? You'd have to ask them, but as the owner of the company, I'd guess they recognize the value in the "complete package" - they like the quality, the specs, the components, the design, and the service they can count on for their $600. I'd imagine many of them LOVE it all for the $400-$500 most of them paid in pre-order.

In my experience/observation, the people who best appreciate my watches (judging by what they say about them) tend to be from within two camps - those who routinely buy watches in the $400-$600 range, and are very familiar with the quality you get in that range, and those who have typically purchased watches for 3x-10x the price, and are blown away by the quality of what you get in that range. The best compliments I've gotten are from guys who tell me our watches are as nice, if not nicer, than anything they've owned at 2x-3x the price.

They get it. Not everyone does. If you're used to buying $20 el-cheapos or $200 Seikos, you may not see the additional value necessary to spend $500-$600. Those people tend to be the ones who get buyer's remorse, and want to over-analyze and nit-pick.

If you've been brainwashed into believing a watch isn't worth owning if it's not from a luxury brand and doesn't cost at least $2k, you may not get it. Those people tend to be the ones who scoff and dismiss in the most blatantly biased, ignorant way.

If you're on Facebook, this video may help frame it for you: https://www.facebook.com/thedailymash/videos/vb.28373121592/1286067551502410/?type=2&theater

If someone doesn't get it, that's fine. My business caters to those who get it, not those who don't. For those who don't, I sincerely wish them the best of luck finding something they'll love elsewhere, and I thank them for not prodding me or my customers to debate it all.

I'm happy making what I'm making, and my customers are happy buying it. Why rock that boat by poking this bear?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Steinharts are really nice watches and a good value. I had one. It was too big on the wrist with the flat lugs. Many other owners swear by them as their best/favorite watch. There's no "right" answer. If there was there'd be only one watch. For those who value the thin-ness, NTH is a great buy. I don't buy watches as an investment, as there are much better investment choices. I buy watches to wear, and how they fit me is the deciding factor. I wear all my watches to work, and it's a demanding environment, and the watches get banged around quite a bit. The less they stick out or catch on stuff the better. The more durable and the less likely to scratch, the better. The steel bezel on the NTH is as tough as they come.


----------



## EveryDayisSunday (Aug 3, 2017)

docvail said:


> These are fair points regardless of what I'm asking for my watches. They're also fair points if you just feel like trolling. They're fair points if I want to question what makes your luxury-brand watch worth thousands of dollars, considering it's not likely to appreciate in value, and doesn't tell time appreciably better than my watch, which only costs hundreds of dollars, or some other watch, which can be purchased for $50.
> 
> There's more to a watch than the movement. When you buy any watch, you're (hopefully) buying a "complete package" - top design, top specs, top components, top quality, top service.
> 
> ...


That is one of the longest posts I've ever read. It really says nothing new. I asked a serious question about value and the return is an emotional rant that tells me you know your weakness. It is one man's opinion (me) that NTH watches don't offer value commensurate to their price point. Its not trolling. It was a passing comment from a consumer comparing products as consumers do every day. No harm was meant, but now its a full on battle royal. Like I said, your over defensive posture betrays what you already know to be true and are working desperately to deflect. You should have let it go instead of putting it on center stage.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> That is one of the longest posts I've ever read. It really says nothing new. I asked a serious question about value and the return is an emotional rant that tells me you know your weakness. It is one man's opinion (me) that NTH watches don't offer value commensurate to their price point. Its not trolling. It was a passing comment from a consumer comparing products as consumers do every day. No harm was meant, but now its a full on battle royal. Like I said, your over defensive posture betrays what you already know to be true and are working desperately to deflect. You should have let it go instead of putting it on center stage.


You're obviously an argue-bot sent from the future by your AI overlords.

I don't know what I do in the future that has caused them to target me and my business, but I'm assuming it's pretty awesome. Maybe I'm the leader of the resistance?

Have fun with that whole dominating the planet thing.

Some shooting stars as just flying pigs.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Do you need a hug? 
Center Stage? 
It is not like you posted up in the Heads up a deal thread. You posted in Doc's Thread asking about his product. 
Perhaps you should crawl back under a bridge and wait for an unsuspecting goat to trick...I have no idea why I am feeding a troll. 
silly Billy Goat gruff!!


EveryDayisSunday said:


> That is one of the longest posts I've ever read. It really says nothing new. I asked a serious question about value and the return is an emotional rant that tells me you know your weakness. It is one man's opinion (me) that NTH watches don't offer value commensurate to their price point. Its not trolling. It was a passing comment from a consumer comparing products as consumers do every day. No harm was meant, but now its a full on battle royal. Like I said, your over defensive posture betrays what you already know to be true and are working desperately to deflect. You should have let it go instead of putting it on center stage.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Where is the sense in buying a Rolex or omega in the 4-5 digits range? Some would say "it's senseless and obscene" some would say "you get it or you don't" - the very same argument most people will have for docs watches. 

You could pose the question the other way round: what's NOT to like with one of the subs (for example), besides the movement question (to which I am not really qualified to answer)? 

But perhaps you should read the whole thread (yes, the WHOLE) and the other sub-dedicated thread. There you will find an answer. And if you still don't get the answer, maybe you just don't like the watches? That is fine as well. 



Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Fair enough. Others have jumped in, but here's my thought: My Omegas need a service every 5-7 years. I use Nesbits FWS. Highly recommend them, BTW. Costs $550. Does that amount sound familiar? That's about what an NTH costs. I can get a new one of these for the cost of a service. Both of my 9015s are running about +4 on the wrist. I never hear the rotor unless I spin it right by my ear. So, as to value: $100 movement (including shipping), $100 Sapphire (cost from yobokies installed), $100 case, $100 bracelet, $50 travel box... That's about what you're paying. Now, why an NTH over the other 1000 micro-brands? These particular watches, the subs, aren't direct homages. As for me, I prefer that. I have the Santa Fe, which hearkens back to the Tag Night Diver, which has been out of production for years. Even more important to me is the size. For some reason most modern micros tend to make 44mm by 15mm watches. Too big. Easier to make, as thickness gives you depth rating. These are 40mm by 11.5. 300 meters. The only other watch that close is the Glycine, which doesn't promise 300m. If you looked at all the other micros out there, you'd see that most cost within 5-10%, and none have the specs of these. If you held one, you'd see how well they're made.
> 
> As to F2, F74: each section of this forum has a label. This section is F71, called Affordables. Conventional wisdom says the watches discussed in here cost less than $1000. Coming in and asking why we like what we're buying, and implying that it is substandard, is basically making the implication that our decision is poor. You could have said "what's the attraction?" without the judgement. It's like walking into a busy restaurant and asking "why are you eating here, the food's bad?" If you ask the Rolex section if they'd buy an affordable, you'll get scathing responses. You're much more likely to find a Rolex owner in F71, but they also love the micros. Me included. Like the restaurant analogy, it makes for a varied diet.


For what it's worth, I have two STP 1-11 powered watches, which are ETA clone movements. Both have "noisy" rotors (seems to be how the STP is) in that if I'm in a silent room, I can hear the rotor if I shake them back and forth. It's really not a big deal. Just wearing them normally, I never hear it. If that's the worst characteristic of the 9015 (or the thing about it not liking being stored sideways) then I'm not bothered. Certainly didn't stop me from buying the $800, stunningly beautiful (and apparently "disposable") Visitor VPO which also has a 9015 in it. I _don't _like the idea of a $500+ NH35 powered watch from a micro, but I don't think ~$600 for a 9015 is in any way out of line, especially if the performance is comparable to my $1200 SRP Zodiac and its STP.

Assuming I still have the Nacken Blue when it eventually needs service, and it costs less to get a new 9015 than a service costs, then I'll get a new 9015 for it? I'm not sure what the problem is here. The Visitor's 9015 has a beautiful custom rotor, and so I'll have that one serviced if/when it needs it.


----------



## SquelchUSMC (Mar 10, 2015)

I can't believe you all are spending so much time on this troll. 
Everyone has their own opinions, and you either appreciate a watch for what it is or you don't. To me, the idea of coming onto a guys thread, who obviously has put great thought and effort into his creations, and ask him why he thinks it's worth so much is extremely rude and does not deserve the time you guys are giving him. Let's get back to talking about Docs watches. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

SquelchUSMC said:


> Let's get back to talking about Docs watches.


Yeah but _how much are they really worth though?!?!!_

(the fact that they're selling well might be a clue)


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

KJRye said:


> Interesting to see how different some peoples opinions are in regards to disposab-ility being good/bad.
> 
> The way I see it...say I'm looking at buying a $30k new car, and have 2 options when it comes to the engine, both of which have the same measurable performance:
> 
> ...


KJRye - a very good point. I totally agree, I can't see where having This option to replace the whole movement, is bad thing. I guess it would be different if someone saw added value in owning an eta 2824 movement.

I do own a watch with a 2824 movement, it is very smooth, and feels great.... but I wouldn't say its worth any more than a nice Japanese movement. Honestly, I would rather my watches not have a manual winding issue, scares me to the point I don't ever manually wind my watch with the ETA movement in it.

I would have NO problem buying another watch from DOC. I follow this thread and others, because I like to keep up on what he is doing, in hopes I can buy a new watch in the future (with the wif's approval).

I also own an Omega watch, and love it... for what it is.. but it is expensive, costs a lot to service.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> For what it's worth, I have two STP 1-11 powered watches, which are ETA clone movements. Both have "noisy" rotors (seems to be how the STP is) in that if I'm in a silent room, I can hear the rotor if I shake them back and forth. It's really not a big deal. Just wearing them normally, I never hear it. If that's the worst characteristic of the 9015 (or the thing about it not liking being stored sideways) then I'm not bothered. Certainly didn't stop me from buying the $800, stunningly beautiful (and apparently "disposable") Visitor VPO which also has a 9015 in it. _*I don't like the idea of a $500+ NH35 powered watch from a micro, but I don't think ~$600 for a 9015 is in any way out of line.*_


You had me up until that last part.

Everyone's entitled to set their own limits on what they'll pay for anything, but I never did, and still don't get the sense in setting an arbitrary - and in this case, and in my opinion, an arbitrarily low - limit on a watch JUST based on the movement inside it.

There's more to a watch than the movement. If I'm wrong about that, then why isn't everyone just buying movements and calling it a day? Go buy an NH35 on ebay for $50. Why not?

Of course - you need all the other parts, someone who knows what they're doing to do the assembly, and you'd prefer the parts and assembly to be good.

Okay, fine. Buy an off the shelf catalog case with crown and crystal, an off the shelf dial and handset, an aftermarket strap, etc, etc, and away you go. Total parts cost, maybe $200. Assemble it yourself, or pay someone to do it, for whatever they charge.

When you do that sort of mental calculus, whether you realize it or not, you're essentially saying the designer deserves nothing. The person who provides support deserves nothing. All the other tasks which are involved in getting a watch from design to delivery are worth nothing.

Sorry, but that's just not realistic, nor reasonable.

The designer needs to be paid, otherwise, no new designs. The assembler, the marketer, the guy doing the lume application, the QC inspector, the delivery guy, the guy who answers your email, the guy who takes your money - they all need to be paid.

What if it's the ugliest watch on the planet, with the most valuable movement? How much is it worth?

What if it's the most amazing design on the planet, with the most pedestrian movement? How much is it worth? No more than $300 (or whatever your self-set limit on such stuff is)? So...the designer gets nothing then?

There are watches with Miyota 8217's selling for over $1,200. There are watches with Miyota 9015's selling for over $700. There are watches with Seiko NH35's selling for over $500. I've seen some selling for more than $700.

If you want one of those watches, you'll have to pay what the person selling it is asking for it, or you won't have it. Just like if you want a Sinn with a garden-variety SW200 in it, you'll have to pay what Sinn asks (feel free to substitute Chris Ward, Oris, or any number of other brands selling watches with movements you can find in other watches selling for $400).

People here have been incredibly spoiled by the value of micro-brands selling fantastic watches at bargain-basement prices. A micro-brand with an NH35 for $500 is likely to be an amazing watch compared to anything you'll get from a mainstream brand at that price.

Set your own limits on what you'll spend to have something you want, but understand that if you don't allow the people involved in producing it and getting it to you to earn a living by doing it, then what you'll end up getting is something less, whether you realize it or not.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah but _how much are they really worth though?!?!!_
> 
> (the fact that they're selling well might be a clue)


I would've paid more for one. I've wanted a sky blue diver for awhile, and there were two I could find that were the right size and the right color, the Aevig Huldra, and the Nacken Modern Blue. The Aevig when you could still get one was $475. You can't get one now, and nobody but the company has any idea when you might be able to get one again. I've never seen one in person, but I've seen in reviews that the finishing on them is "okay." Someone said that a Dagaz watch is better finished, so likely the Aevig is no more than at its price level in terms of finishing quality. If the level of finishing on the NTH is comparable to something like a Longines or Oris (or even my Zodiac) then it's worth the extra money that it costs, perhaps more.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> View attachment 12432623


Thanks for posting that. I forgot that was coming up in next month or so. Pretty excited for this one as well!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> You had me up until that last part.


In my particular case, it's not because the NH35 costs $50. I really am not that concerned by the cost of the movement. I would just like to see a little bit better movement accuracy, and preferably 28.8K BPH instead of 21.6K for $500. I'm not hugely bothered by the 6 beat second hand in my SKX, because that's a $200 watch. All of my other watches though are 8 beat, including my $475 Borealis with its STP. I know there are $12K watches with 21.6K BPH movements in them, and clearly people are willing to buy them, but I'm not. That's just me.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

kpjimmy said:


> Thanks for posting that. I forgot that was coming up in next month or so. Pretty excited for this one as well!


Yep, really excited for mine to come in. I like the Duneshore, but it's just way too big for me, and I'm not a huge fan of all polished watches, which is one of the reasons why I bought the Nacken Modern Blue over a Squale 1521. The VPO is mostly brushed, is a much more reasonable size I can wear, and I think it has the coolest sandwhich dial out there, short of maybe the $55K Panerai LAB-ID.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> Yep, really excited for mine to come in. I like the Duneshore, but it's just way too big for me, and I'm not a huge fan of all polished watches, which is one of the reasons why I bought the Nacken Modern Blue over a Squale 1521. The VPO is mostly brushed, is a much more reasonable size I can wear, and I think it has the coolest sandwhich dial out there, short of maybe the $55K Panerai LAB-ID.


Sorry to detract the thread all! Well I am still awaiting the completion of the Ghost Rider  I have the DLC on order.

I have the Duneshore and have the bracelet coming along with the VPO. Great start to the fall for me lol.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> In my particular case, it's not because the NH35 costs $50. I really am not that concerned by the cost of the movement. I would just like to see a little bit better movement accuracy, and preferably 28.8K BPH instead of 21.6K for $500. I'm not hugely bothered by the 6 beat second hand in my SKX, because that's a $200 watch. All of my other watches though are 8 beat, including my $475 Borealis with its STP. I know there are $12K watches with 21.6K BPH movements in them, and clearly people are willing to buy them, but I'm not. That's just me.


Yep, I can respect that, if I'm picking up what you're putting down.

"For $500, I want a high-beat movement." - Okay, I guess that's legit, reasonable people can disagree without being disagreeable, etc.

"I won't spend $500 for something with "only" a Seiko NH35 in it." - Ehhh...I think I have to default back to the above. If you're a movement/specs snob (not that it's a bad thing), okay, I get it, but that still seems a bit arbitrary. Let's not argue about it, and I'll say I respect your viewpoint, even if I disagree, if it helps us get over the hump.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Sorry to detract the thread all! Well I am still awaiting the completion of the Ghost Rider  I have the DLC on order.
> 
> I have the Duneshore and have the bracelet coming along with the VPO. Great start to the fall for me lol.


It's cool. Phil from Visitor is a solid dude, and I've been eagerly waiting to see more pics of that Vale Park Officer as well. I'm very impressed with the ambitiousness he's shown following up on his first model.

As a bonus, I love seeing people geeking out over a $700-$800 watch with a 9015 in it, if it helps put this "$600 is too much for a 9015" nonsense in its proper perspective.


----------



## EveryDayisSunday (Aug 3, 2017)

docvail said:


> You're obviously an argue-bot sent from the future by your AI overlords.
> 
> I don't know what I do in the future that has caused them to target me and my business, but I'm assuming it's pretty awesome. Maybe I'm the leader of the resistance?
> 
> ...


Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Hit happy hour a little early, did we? Anyway, good luck with your watches. No one is targeting anything. It was a simple question. As a business man you should be accustomed to questions about your product, and yes, some critique. You should also be better prepared with answers to deal with pain in the a$$ customers. If you had been it would have gone something like:

"I'm glad you asked. We believe our watches offer tremendous quality and value. We are also very pleased to offer the Miyota 9015 in our watches. The 9015 is a relatively new and exciting movement that offers reliability, and longevity, while providing our customers with a lower cost of ownership which is always an issue with mechanical watches. We believe this movement will take its place beside the best Swiss movements offered today, and we couldn't be more pleased to include it in our family of watches. I invite you to give it a try."

It sure beats a desperate and defensive tome.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Hit happy hour a little early, did we? Anyway, good luck with your watches. No one is targeting anything. It was a simple question. As a business man you should be accustomed to questions about your product, and yes, some critique. You should also be better prepared with answers to deal with pain in the a$$ customers. If you had been it would have gone something like:
> 
> "I'm glad you asked. We believe our watches offer tremendous quality and value. We are also very pleased to offer the Miyota 9015 in our watches. The 9015 is a relatively new and exciting movement that offers reliability, and longevity, while providing our customers with a lower cost of ownership which is always an issue with mechanical watches. We believe this movement will take its place beside the best Swiss movements offered today, and we couldn't be more pleased to include it in our family of watches. I invite you to give it a try."
> 
> It sure beats a desperate and defensive tome.


Awesome. You sure told me. Hope you feel better, now go and get your shinebox.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Yep, I can respect that, if I'm picking up what you're putting down.
> 
> "For $500, I want a high-beat movement." - Okay, I guess that's legit, reasonable people can disagree without being disagreeable, etc.
> 
> "I won't spend $500 for something with "only" a Seiko NH35 in it." - Ehhh...I think I have to default back to the above. If you're a movement/specs snob (not that it's a bad thing), okay, I get it, but that still seems a bit arbitrary. Let's not argue about it, and I'll say I respect your viewpoint, even if I disagree, if it helps us get over the hump.


It's really more that I like to see 28.8K if I'm spending over $400. It's not that I'm putting down the NH35 specifically, that's just what you tend to see in micro brand watches with 21.6K movements. The 6R15 is a _very _respectable movement, but I wouldn't buy a $500+ Prospex diver with that movement, because it's 21.6K and I'd rather have a high-beat movement in other watches of comparable build quality, finishing, and design that I can buy for similar money to what Seiko is charging in that market. There are a few micro brand watches that I've seen that I've quite liked, and thought "Oh, if only that had a high-beat movement in it."

The Phantom is a good example. It's not quite what I'm after because it's a little too long for me lug-to-lug, and I'd much rather have a 60-minute timing bezel than a 12-hour second time zone bezel. But if it was for the sake of argument 48mm L2L, had the timing bezel, and had a 6R15 in it, I probably wouldn't buy one because of the BPH rate. If it was otherwise identical but had a 9015, SW-200, or STP 1-11 in it.... then I would seriously consider one, even if using one of those movements meant the price was $600 instead of $450.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

What is a tome?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> It's really more that I like to see 28.8K if I'm spending over $400. It's not that I'm putting down the NH35 specifically, that's just what you tend to see in micro brand watches with 21.6K movements. The 6R15 is a _very _respectable movement, but I wouldn't buy a $500+ Prospex diver with that movement, because it's 21.6K and I'd rather have a high-beat movement in other watches of comparable build quality, finishing, and design that I can buy for similar money to what Seiko is charging in that market. There are a few micro brand watches that I've seen that I've quite liked, and thought "Oh, if only that had a high-beat movement in it."
> 
> The Phantom is a good example. It's not quite what I'm after because it's a little too long for me lug-to-lug, and I'd much rather have a 60-minute timing bezel than a 12-hour second time zone bezel. But if it was for the sake of argument 48mm L2L, had the timing bezel, and had a 6R15 in it, I probably wouldn't buy one because of the BPH rate. If it was otherwise identical but had a 9015, SW-200, or STP 1-11 in it.... then I would seriously consider one, even if using one of those movements meant the price was $600 instead of $450.


What did I tell you guys about using logic on me?

Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## bena87 (Mar 9, 2010)

In other news, Cuda now on its way. Cue schoolgirl excitement...


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

Wow that Cuda car looks good. WOW..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> What is a tome?


A scholarly book, often large, and heavy, especially if your chief form of exercise is pounding a keyboard.


----------



## iceman66 (Feb 24, 2013)

#worthit


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Where is the sense in buying a Rolex or omega in the 4-5 digits range? Some would say "it's senseless and obscene" some would say "you get it or you don't" - the very same argument most people will have for docs watches.
> 
> You could pose the question the other way round: what's NOT to like with one of the subs (for example), besides the movement question (to which I am not really qualified to answer)?
> 
> ...


Hmmm I have 4 Janus watches 3 omegas and 3 gshocks

I also have a newish boss302 67 stang a 72 torino and a well loved beater truck

They all have time and place


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> The Phantom is a good example. It's not quite what I'm after because.//.I'd much *rather have a 60-minute timing bezel than a 12-hour second time zone bezel*.


That's why you're wrong, DK. 12-hr bezels RULE!!

Iliyan, kpjimmy and I will now go and play in our own sandbox.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Just my $.02. My Janis collection will be at 6 by the end of the week (just got a shipping notice. Woohoo). I have yet to question the value of these watches. All have delivered quality beyond my expectations. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Hmmm I have 4 Janus watches 3 omegas and 3 gshocks
> 
> I also have a newish boss302 67 stang a 72 torino and a well loved beater truck
> 
> They all have time and place


I didn't want to get misunderstood this way. I bought one myself, I know at least one or two reasons why I did so. But the same goes for my näcken vintage blue 



EveryDayisSunday said:


> Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Hit happy hour a little early, did we? Anyway, good luck with your watches. No one is targeting anything. It was a simple question. As a business man you should be accustomed to questions about your product, and yes, some critique. You should also be better prepared with answers to deal with pain in the a$$ customers. If you had been it would have gone something like:
> 
> "I'm glad you asked. We believe our watches offer tremendous quality and value. We are also very pleased to offer the Miyota 9015 in our watches. The 9015 is a relatively new and exciting movement that offers reliability, and longevity, while providing our customers with a lower cost of ownership which is always an issue with mechanical watches. We believe this movement will take its place beside the best Swiss movements offered today, and we couldn't be more pleased to include it in our family of watches. I invite you to give it a try."
> 
> It sure beats a desperate and defensive tome.


Really? That is the answer you would have liked and what would have made the whole "experience" here positive?

I think that would have been the usual, generic marketing bull$h:!- as a reply that would have made me avoid buying one of his products. And I a sure many here feel the same (at least this thread is dedicated to his products).

Doc put quite some facts into his answer and shows a never-seen transparency to his business model (and owning a microbrand in general) - and then you come along and want the generic piece. I think either you should take the time and go through the thread - and I am sure even the most educated and sophisticated gentleman with the most refined knowledge about watches, businesses and psychology could learn at least a few things  - or if you don't, you should not waste your time. I think there is some Patek Philippe glossy infotainment "you never own a watch for yourself"-thing to be read and admired somewhere 

You see, and I am sure knew before: people are different, so are their decisions to spend their monies ().

----

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Shipping notice for my modern blue! I'm not a bracelet guy, so I'll be putting it on one of these until I can get a Chris Ward leather strap for it, and for when it's going to get wet. Have to see it in person to know the exact color, but this seemed like a good match.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

EveryDayisSunday sure knows a lot about watches for someone with such a low post count.
In fact... It sure looks as though someone created a fresh account just to pick on one micro-brand.
I wonder how he knows about Doc and his brands?
Hmm... Seems he's also given a lot of thought to how a micro-brand owner should run their business and have pre-canned responses to customers with grievances.
I wonder... could it be a rival micro-brand owner?


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

OMG, I just want the devilray preorders to open. and for secret benefactor to drop a gilt amphion (or cudda, or sante fe, or nacken vintage, or azores vanilla) in my lap because I only have budget for 1.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Shipping notice for my modern blue! I'm not a bracelet guy, so I'll be putting it on one of these until I can get a Chris Ward leather strap for it, and for when it's going to get wet. Have to see it in person to know the exact color, but this seemed like a good match.
> 
> View attachment 12433931


Dave, I have a feeling that blue is going to be more turquoise, whereas the Nacken's dial is more grayish blue.

That said, if you find the strap isn't a good match, and you can't return it, please let me know if you'd like to sell it.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> Thanks for your response. OK, so to distill this down from your own words (with my responses):
> 
> You: "The 9015 isn't the same cost as the ETA 2824-2, it's slightly less"
> Me: But the NTH watches are at a price point equal to, or higher than watches with the ETA; example the Steinhart Ocean 1 which today sells for about $445.
> ...


Dude, why don't you go to the general forum and make the obvious bait post of Rolex vs Omega vs Grand Seiko?, better trolling for your efforts.

Seriously guys, way to feed the troll. Anybody with two brain cells can easily tell the cost/value difference between watches made from stock parts and the ones like Doc's made from custom parts, this guy was such an obvious and lazy troll and you kept going at it.




EveryDayisSunday said:


> Finally, I do not harbor, nor do I wish to invoke hard feelings. I simply brought up a point regarding value and movement quality. These are fair points given what you are asking for your watches.


Hahaha!!!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I think that would have been the usual, generic marketing bull$h:!- as a reply that would have made me avoid buying one of his products. And I a sure many here feel the same (at least this thread is dedicated to his products).


Yeah, exactly this. Hell, everyone knows I've had a fair share of disagreements with doc (to put it politely) - but two of the things that brought me back towards respecting his work were:
1) the subs are really good;
2) he's not doing the same bland BS-marketing that nearly all other microbrands do.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah, exactly this. Hell, everyone knows I've had a fair share of disagreements with doc (to put it politely) - but two of the things that brought me back towards respecting his work were:
> 1) the subs are really good;
> 2) he's not doing the same bland BS-marketing that nearly all other microbrands do.


Reasonable people can disagree without being disagreeable.

Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> That is one of the longest posts I've ever read. It really says nothing new. I asked a serious question about value and the return is an emotional rant that tells me you know your weakness. It is one man's opinion (me) that NTH watches don't offer value commensurate to their price point. Its not trolling. It was a passing comment from a consumer comparing products as consumers do every day. No harm was meant, but now its a full on battle royal. Like I said, your over defensive posture betrays what you already know to be true and are working desperately to deflect. You should have let it go instead of putting it on center stage.


Homie, you brought a butter knife to a bazooka fight picking a fight with Doc in his house.

Sent the hard way from my Commodore 64.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

The Watcher said:


> whoooo
> here we go
> 
> how many times does it have to be said...'a watch is more than the sum of a bunch of parts'
> ...


Wow, amazing strap! Where did you get it?

A shame you put it on such a _disposable_ watch though.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Dave, I have a feeling that blue is going to be more turquoise, whereas the Nacken's dial is more grayish blue.
> 
> That said, if you find the strap isn't a good match, and you can't return it, please let me know if you'd like to sell it.


Haven't seen to many pics of modern blue prototype. Maybe Instagram? Look forward to them

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Dave, I have a feeling that blue is going to be more turquoise, whereas the Nacken's dial is more grayish blue.
> 
> That said, if you find the strap isn't a good match, and you can't return it, please let me know if you'd like to sell it.


Thanks Doc, but it's from Amazon so it will be extremely easy to return if the look doesn't work. I'm also not all that concerned if it's not 100% perfect, as the silicone strap will mostly just be on it if I'm taking it swimming, or doing some type of sweaty activity. When I'm wearing it regularly, it will be on a CW "camel" oak leather strap which should contrast with the blue very nicely. I really wish someone else made XS length leather straps with QR pins so I'd have more choices, but _no one _does, at least not that I'm aware of, so my choices are Christopher Ward, or Christopher Ward.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


> Haven't seen to many pics of modern blue prototype. Maybe Instagram? Look forward to them
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


There have been some on IG. WUS user @DarkShot (IG - @darkshizzle) put some good ones up when he had the proto on loan - https://www.instagram.com/darkshizzle/.

I deferred to Aaron (@synaptyx) on the specific shade of blue used for the Näcken Vintage and Modern Blue dials. He tends to go for the less vibrant, more subtle shades when he picks colors (see the Commander 300 blue as another example, with a similar blue), whereas I tend to go for the more vibrant/saturated shades when I pick them (see Riccardo, Acionna and Orthos for my type of blue).

The general idea with most of the Subs is, "what might these vintage models look like if they were still in production today?"

For the Näcken Vintage Blue, we went with something a little darker, somewhat like the dark teal blues Omega used for the AT "Skyfall" or SMP (these are the shades I was going for with the blue Cerberus).















I like the color of the vintage Näcken, but I could have lived with it being a tad lighter than the shade we picked, which didn't have as much green in it, compared to the Omegas.

I may just be imagining it, but I think we also talked about how the blue Tudor Pelagos is just too saturated, so for the Modern, we went with something more like a faded/vintage Tudor snowflake sub.









Like the blue Commander 300, the color he chose is the opposite of "in your face". It's so subtle that for some, it can be hard to detect that there's any blue there at all, and instead it just looks gray. The brighter the light, the more the color comes out.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Elbakalao said:


> Homie, you brought a butter knife to a bazooka fight picking a fight with Doc in his house.
> 
> Sent the hard way from my Commodore 64.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I may just be imagining it, but I think we also talked about how the blue Tudor Pelagos is just too saturated, so for the Modern, we went with something more like a faded/vintage Tudor snowflake sub.
> 
> Like the blue Commander 300, the color he chose is the opposite of "in your face". It's so subtle that for some, it can be hard to detect that there's any blue there at all, and instead it just looks gray. The brighter the light, the more the color comes out.


That I very much agree with, the Pelagos is too much blue. The matte look makes it less eye searing than something like the Trident C60 blue, but it still really doesn't work for me. The Modern Blue's ability to seem brighter and more aqua colored depending on how much light is on it is what makes it difficult to shop for straps just going on pictures.

Squale has my favorite blue dial out there, sadly in a case that's way too big for my wrist. C'est la vie.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

EveryDayisSunday said:


> You should also be better prepared with answers to deal with pain in the a$$ customers.


The difference is you are not a pain in the a$$ customer. You are a pain in the a$$ troll.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, it's all good. Let's not feed the troll.

He came in with an agenda, obviously. I responded to him politely/thoroughly, but of course he spins that as me being emotional or whatever.

No point in engaging with him further.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Today, I gave my NVB to a friend for the weekend, he wanted to check it out and "feel". Of course I got something in exchange. But I already miss it. It's become
My grab'n'go piece. Plus, the blue of the bezel is incredible versatile.

But who knows, maybe he will get one of the modern blues. He was taken by the Oberon. But that's gone.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## DarkShot (Aug 5, 2013)

Re: the Modern Blue.

She's purty that's for sure.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

DarkShot said:


> Re: the Modern Blue.
> 
> She's purty that's for sure.
> 
> ...


Mines scheduled to arrive tomorrow. Can't wait. Santa Cruz too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

I have a question for doc. I don't want it to become a political debate. Hopefully we're grown up enough that we can resist the urge to act like the rest of the internet. 

Anyway, I've read a couple of articles that suggest the president is looking at our trade deficit with China. Critics say this may start a trade war. How will this affect you and the other micro brands? I understand no one can predict what the response will be but I'm looking for a more generic answer like higher prices or having to move to another manufacturer not in China or, best case, nothing. Have you made any contingency plans? Again don't need specifics and I doubt any sane businessman would share specifics anyway. 

Again. This is not a political discussion so please let's keep it about watches. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> I have a question for doc. I don't want it to become a political debate. Hopefully we're grown up enough that we can resist the urge to act like the rest of the internet.
> 
> Anyway, I've read a couple of articles that suggest the president is looking at our trade deficit with China. Critics say this may start a trade war. How will this affect you and the other micro brands? I understand no one can predict what the response will be but I'm looking for a more generic answer like higher prices or having to move to another manufacturer not in China or, best case, nothing. Have you made any contingency plans? Again don't need specifics and I doubt any sane businessman would share specifics anyway.
> 
> ...


Good question. I have thought about it.

My general understanding is that the two main tools at the US's disposal would be raising import taxes (tariffs), and labeling China a currency manipulator, which I guess comes with some sort of consequences, and thereby we exert pressure on them to de-couple their currency from ours, and let it float freely.

By way of background, and a window into "my" world:

China pegs its currency, the RMB (and the Hong Kong dollar, HKD) to the US dollar (USD). The exchange rate never changes, no matter what either country's economy is doing. In fact, Chinese factories all price their costs in USD, not RMB or HKD. They ask us to send payment in USD. They don't want to know from RMB or HKD.

As a result of that currency-fixing, throughout the time China's economy has been going gangbusters, their currency stayed artificially low. It's a bit of a double-whammy, when you combine it with the fact that their labor costs were already lower than ours.

It's kept the cost of their goods even lower, and helped their exports, at the expense of our wages here, and, theoretically, our exports, or just our own domestic production. Why make t-shirts here for $1 per unit if you can make them there and ship them here for $0.35 per unit?

This is why some want to see China de-couple their currency from ours. The assumption is that theirs will go up against ours, and it will help our cost of labor become less expensive by comparison, make products produced here more comparable in price to theirs, etc.

The tariff thing would have almost no effect on me at all. They could double, triple, or quadruple the import costs, and I (we) could absorb it. I don't want to get into all the reasons why, or the numbers, but in a nutshell, there are some industry practices in place which help minimize customs costs, and I'll leave it at that.

I don't even bother factoring import costs into my prices, at least not in a very precise way. I mostly ballpark what import duties are going to be, and build it into my total production costs.

To put some rough numbers on this, if I did factor import costs into my prices, they might equate to $5-$6 of the retail price you pay me, assuming you're buying something in-stock. If it goes to $10-$15-$20, you might complain, but you're not going to complain too much, because most other micros (at least here in the US) will likely do the same.

The thing that could hurt, in a big way, is the currency de-coupling.

Right now, for guys like Sujain and Chip, who don't live in the USA, the currency fluctuations present some real challenges. To make the analysis easy, let's say we have to pay 30% of our production costs up front, and the remainder when the production is done, before they ship it to us.

Now imagine that your currency fell by 10% against their currency in the 6 months since starting production, and the 70% remainder payment just got 10% more expensive, when denominated in the currency you use every day.

Example: USD $100,000 of production costs for 500 pieces. $30,000 up front. $70,000 remainder payment 6 months from now. You price everything out in your local currency using these numbers. Then, the exchange rate goes against you, after you've started pre-orders, and that $70,000 becomes $77,000. It's "only" 7% more cost per unit, but still - it's $7,000 you weren't expecting to be spending. It sucks. Hard.

It happens. I haven't talked to Suj or Chip about it in a while, but Suj was talking about doing something to hedge against this happening, some sort of currency option, or maybe just converting a bunch of money to USD (bringing with it the risk that the Aussie Dollar would rise against the USD, and he'd lose value because of it). I may be wrong, but I think Jason (Halios) prices things in USD, even though he's in Canada, and I think this is probably why. By keeping everything in US dollars, it insulates him from the swings in the Canadian dollar.

The downside is real. I'm not sure if he publicly disclosed this or not (and if not, I don't think he'd mind that I'm about to), but this was a big issue for Tony from Deaumar. On top of the fact that his planned pricing (especially in pre-order) was a too-low multiple of his production costs, he had Brexit happen to him while he was in production, cratering the pound. I don't think he LOST money because of it, but it certainly wiped out a big chunk of any profit he might have otherwise made.

This is one of the reasons he and I butted heads about his pricing (and we've since become much more friendly). I didn't foresee Brexit, but when micros rely on extreme value-pricing as a means of driving business, there are serious risks. Forget drinking water, nothing cures a "hiccup" like having enough cash on hand.

It'd be like when I deal with vendors in Europe, like my strap suppliers, or STP. They value everything in CHF or EUR. I had the currency exchange go against me when I bought a bunch of rubber straps. Luckily, it wasn't a huge chunk of money, unlike the cost of producing a watch. With STP, they gave me a price quote good for the rest of the year (last year).

The thing about currency de-coupling is that it could backfire. China's economy hasn't been growing at the same pace lately, so I'm not sure what we should assume about their currency rising against ours. Even if that happens, it's going to make a lot of products more expensive for us to buy - not just watches, but EVERYTHING that gets made there.

It's not like someone can just flip a switch and say, "Okay, our labor is now cheaper (relatively), so we've got more demand for it, so we can raise wages, to help all these laborers buy the same products they need for everyday life, but are now 20% more expensive." There's going to be an adjustment period, of unknown duration, during which we'll see higher prices on imports, but not higher wages, and it could be painful, for a whole lot of people, particularly those on a fixed income, like our retirees, and people barely getting by as it is.

My hope is that we can stop short of forcing China to de-couple from the dollar, or implement some sort of limited range of fluctuation (doubtful, but if I were in charge of global currency exchanges, these are the sorts of changes I'd implement), and if we increase import duties, the Department of Commerce can implement a system that takes into consideration the nature of the product being imported, rather than applying a blanket tariff across the board.

Sure, we can make t-shirts here, and iPads, but it's not like I'm making watches in China just because it's less costly than doing it here. We can't do it here. The entire industry is gone. We no longer have the diverse ecosystem of specialty suppliers that exists in Asia. There's a reason "Made in the USA" isn't seen on watches anymore, and it's not purely about labor costs and currency exchange rates. We were already behind the Swiss coming out of WWII, and let the last of the industry go overseas during the quartz crisis.
*
PS/EDIT* - No, I have no contingency plan, not really. If it happens, it'd put me in the same position as Suj, Chip, and every micro outside the USA. I'd have to incur some added expense if I wanted to implement some hedge, which would have to be built into my pricing. Ultimately, it's a big $hlt sandwich, and we'd all have to take a bite.

I have done some very preliminary investigation into bringing some of the production back here, to the US. We're a long way away from a US movement, but I think the case, crystal, and some of the other main parts could be made here, if someone (and it would probably have to be me) could educate the suppliers. We can already do domestic assembly, but I've held off, due to the cost, but also the added complication of shipping all the parts here - what if there's a widespread defect, etc?

I'm not sure how much it would raise costs, honestly. Just looking at domestic assembly, it would add at least $25 to the retail prices you pay, maybe $50, I think, if I just look at the difference in raw costs.

But lately, some of the frustrations I've been having with production over there make me wonder if I couldn't make some of the cost difference up if we had fewer mistakes/delays by doing more here, and I had less stress dealing with all the behind-the-scenes issues I now deal with.

If I could cut 90-120 days off the production cycle (design-to-delivery), that would theoretically speed up my cash flow, by allowing me to make and sell new models more quickly, and it would DEFINITELY reduce my stress level. That might be worth eating $25-$50 per unit.

Right now, we're OVER 1 year in getting from design start to delivery. Look at the DevilRay. We started working on that in January of this year, and won't make delivery until Spring. That's beyond disgusting to me, when I know we lost two months dicking around back and forth with the factory about the design, and I'll have to build at least a 30 day production delay into my delivery estimate.

Take those 3 months out of it, plus drop a month with good-old-fashioned American ingenuity and get'r'done attitude (not to mention not taking a month off for the lunar new year every Jan-Feb), we're down to a 7 or 8-month cycle, or at least a 1/3 decrease, which would let me get another new model in every year.


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

Doc

thanks for sharing that information, that is really interesting.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Thank you for the education. I'm an engineer and my knowledge of finance is sadly lacking. 

I know you have an international customer base but I would have no problem paying a little extra for an assembled in USA watch. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> Thank you for the education. I'm an engineer and my knowledge of finance is sadly lacking.
> 
> I know you have an international customer base but I would have no problem paying a little extra for an assembled in USA watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


About 2/3 of my sales are from within the USA. No doubt many Americans would pony up more if I made a big deal about it, but the increase in price would kill me with non-US customers.

Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Yeah, it's one of the many factors that go into running a business. I have a lot of respect for what you do. Being a designer, purchasing agent, quality control and a myriad of other jobs on top of putting up with all of us is more than I'd want to take on. 

I grew up in Michigan and saw firsthand what happens when the big employers pull out. I'm in favor of anything that brings some jobs back. 

Ive also had a couple beers so take my posts with a grain of salt. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> *Right now, we're OVER 1 year in getting from design start to delivery. Look at the DevilRay. We started working on that in January of this year, and won't make delivery until Spring. That's beyond disgusting to me, when I know we lost two months dicking around back and forth with the factory about the design, and I'll have to build at least a 30 day production delay into my delivery estimate. *


I am not sure if you hear this enough, but I love hearing your insights into the watch industry as I find them very informative.
Also thank you for not rushing the production of the Devilray; I am sure it will be very successful!


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Trying out a Stowa strap this evening.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

After reading all that I now understand why Canadian watch micros charge in USD. As a proud Canadian, it drove me nuts but makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

As for the assembly of your pieces being done the US, there is a whole thread of modders I am sure would be ready to do your bidding lol. #bsht

Again, always look forward to reading your posts. Keep doing what ya do brah.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Q
U
O
T
I
N
G

A

W
A
L
L

O
F

T
E
X
T

... is lame.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

If I never bought another watch, I'd still come here to read this stuff.


----------



## carlitoswhey (Jun 26, 2017)

I have a vintage El Torino with a 14.4 dial-up movement, but a 44 inch chest and huge biceps. Are doc's watches the right size for me?

/kidding.

doc, good info. I can't make watches, but I really find the industry interesting. I wonder if currency hedging and maybe US / Asia risk liaison work could present a business opportunity for me someday. I used to source a bunch of stuff from overseas and could put my business mind noodle to work somehow. A girl can dream anyway.

Thanks for the interesting posts. Very thought-provoking.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Damn Tapatalk, with all the recent long and educative posts (thanks!) - where is docs post where he is talking about the amount of watches he had for each model? Was it in this Thread or in the sub thread? 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Now that thread was a good read. The 1 with the pic of a buff dude.....I am assuming you are referring to that incredible thread of knowledge?



carlitoswhey said:


> I have a vintage El Torino with a 14.4 dial-up movement, but a 44 inch chest and huge biceps. Are doc's watches the right size for me?
> 
> /kidding.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> If I never bought another watch, I'd still come here to read this stuff.


Absolutely and well said, always required reading here - along with the occasional blindfold nose-dive into True Confessions for the guaranteed rip-roaring hilarity, it helps me keep the faith in WUS.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

carlitoswhey said:


> I have a vintage El Torino with a 14.4 dial-up movement, but a 44 inch chest and huge biceps. Are doc's watches the right size for me?
> 
> /kidding.
> 
> ...





Ojibway Bob said:


> Now that thread was a good read. The 1 with the pic of a buff dude.....I am assuming you are referring to that incredible thread of knowledge?


I'm sure I'll regret asking, but I take it I overlooked something funny as it was happening? Anyone got a link to it, or a warning to stay away, unless I want my eyes to bleed?

Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

No No No... really not heavy pic laden just some bodybuilder that mentions all his physical attributes and looking for help with watch sizing with a pic of him in a tanktop. The most important measurement he leaves out was his wrist size I believe. Well worth the 20+ pages of flame on action.. HAHAH

SOMEONE LINK IT!!!!! hard to google that ****e at work and not look like a dumbass!!!



docvail said:


> I'm sure I'll regret asking, but I take it I overlooked something funny as it was happening? Anyone got a link to it, or a warning to stay away, unless I want my eyes to bleed?
> 
> Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Ojibway Bob said:


> No No No... really not heavy pic laden just some bodybuilder that mentions all his physical attributes and looking for help with watch sizing with a pic of him in a tanktop. The most important measurement he leaves out was his wrist size I believe. Well worth the 20+ pages of flame on action.. HAHAH
> 
> SOMEONE LINK IT!!!!! hard to google that ****e at work and not look like a dumbass!!!


https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/36-42-not-sweetspot-claimed-4246090.html

You are welcome


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

HAHAHA Now to save it this time!!!!! Thanks. Now to re-read with my co-worker.|>:-!:-d



idvsego said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/36-42-not-sweetspot-claimed-4246090.html
> 
> You are welcome


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

While we we wait on someone willing to look like a dumbass at work, I've got some random thinks as a follow on to recent discussions about value of watches and quality of movements...

Someone just offered me $600 for my 1 of 6 Atomic Orange Orthos II, a watch which sold for $500 when I had them in stock. Looks like I'll be freeing up another space in my collection.

Value is highly subjective, and largely relative. People will generally pay more for something when they like it enough. This is the value of good design, and I suppose all the other intangibles that might be put under the heading of "brand".

When someone says my watches are overpriced, what I hear is, "I don't like it enough to pay that." That's fine. I don't like the Planet Ocean enough to pay $2500 for a used one. But I'm not going around b!tching that they're overpriced.

I don't wear my watches enough that I'd notice bad timekeeping, but the conversation led me to put it on my timegrapher. Its disposable Seiko NH35 is running +4 s/d.

A movement being low cost doesn't make it bad. I've had an almost 0% defect rate with the Japanese movements, and they perform like champs. 

Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Its posted above READ IT!!!!



docvail said:


> While we we wait on someone willing to look like a dumbass at work, I've got some random thinks as a follow on to recent discussions about value of watches and quality of movements...
> 
> Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Its posted above READ IT!!!!


It was posted while I was typing. I'll check it out later. Link doesn't work on my phone.

Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Look a watch









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Value is highly subjective, and largely relative. People will generally pay more for something when they like it enough. This is the value of good design, and I suppose all the other intangibles that might be put under the heading of "brand".
> 
> When someone says my watches are overpriced, what I hear is, "I don't like it enough to pay that." That's fine. I don't like the Planet Ocean enough to pay $2500 for a used one. But I'm not going around b!tching that they're overpriced.


Word.

I bought a "green diver". I then found another "green diver" I liked better and sold the first at a loss and spent much more for the second one. Then decided I wanted a different "green diver" and sold the second one at a loss. Tried to buy another "green diver" from you however I missed the train on it (sorry again for what happen to your inventory) and you no longer stocked said "green diver". I now have another "green diver" which cost more then the other "green divers" however I am very happy with it and feel it was "worth the money" TO ME.

I have been through a similar journey with "blue watches" except I went through MANY more "blue watches" then "green watches". Recently bought another "blue watch" that I really like however its on the thick side which means it may soon be moving on. The only thing holding me back from the Nacken now is the same thing that held me back at preorder time in that unlike most of you slacker hippies around here I actually check my watches for the date on a fairly regular basis so I am trying not to buy many watches without the date. Not saying I have completely bowed out of the blue Nacken yet because I really like the look and know from experience of owning several other Doc watches that the fit and finish is there.

The watches I own/owned could likely fund some expensive watches however the thought has not crossed my mind. I enjoy what I enjoy.

So to some up: Humans are weirdos. :think:

And: Many watches may look great in pictures or have great specs on paper however they just do not "feel" right from person to person. Such is WIS life yo. :-s The journey is the destination. Live to fight another day. Make lemonade, etc, etc, etc...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

idvsego said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/36-42-not-sweetspot-claimed-4246090.html
> 
> You are welcome


I stopped reading on page three. I may not be in the right frame of mind for that one. The post about buying vintage cell phones was a good one.

For my money, nothing beats a good "Screw you all, I'm outta here" rage-quit-the-forum thread. Hilarity is always bound to ensue.

Please, if you're reading this, don't just fade away. It's always better to burn out, like a star going supernova.

A close second would be the "nevermind" thread. You can't get people to NOT click on your thread by editing the title with "nevermind". That's just asking for shenanigans, like chumming the water.

If you start the day's second WRUW thread, just roll with it. Be proud. Wear it like a badge of honor. Otherwise these guys will go "death by meme" on you.

Four out of five dentists recommend Tapatalk to their patients who do talk.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Look again and there's another watch......









Mr. C has been the chosen one all week.....

Luv 'im.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Someone bought a  Cruz

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Yeah, I'm a bit surprised at the attacks against the nh35 and Miyota 9015. I mean from an horological perspective the second one is really on par if not better than the 2824-2 and the first one is an absolute workhorse that can survive almost anything. Still a similar category not something like the 8L35 or the 3135 that are a definite step above.
Not that you can't find a nh35 that keeps better time than a 6r15 or a 8L35... In fact most of my nh35 powered watches keep better time than my MM300 or my Speedmaster. And all of my 9015 powered watches are superb time keepers.
The only thing that can be said in bad regarding the lower/mid grade Seiko or Miyota movements is that their not as easy to regulate as a base ETA, lacking the dedicated screw...

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pakz said:


> Yeah, I'm a bit surprised at the attacks against the nh35 and Miyota 9015. I mean from an horological perspective the second one is really on par if not better than the 2824-2 and the first one is an absolute workhorse that can survive almost anything. Still a similar category not something like the 8L35 or the 3135 that are a definite step above.
> Not that you can't find a nh35 that keeps better time than a 6r15 or a 8L35... In fact most of my nh35 powered watches keep better time than my MM300 or my Speedmaster. And all of my 9015 powered watches are superb time keepers.
> The only thing that can be said in bad regarding the lower/mid grade Seiko or Miyota movements is that their not as easy to regulate as a base ETA, lacking the dedicated screw...
> 
> Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


You had me at dedicated screw.

The weekend is coming, after all.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Pakz said:


> Yeah, I'm a bit surprised at the attacks against the nh35 and Miyota 9015. I mean from an horological perspective the second one is really on par if not better than the 2824-2 and the first one is an absolute workhorse that can survive almost anything.


Yeah, well, the 2824-2 is "venerable", whatever that means. People keep saying that.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaaaannnndddd...Nacken Vintage Black, now sold out. 

Just four Subs models left in stock, all single or low-double digit inventory. Won't be making more until next year. 

Just sayin'...


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> Aaaaaannnndddd...Nacken Vintage Black, now sold out.
> 
> Just four Subs models left in stock, all single or low-double digit inventory. Won't be making more until next year.
> 
> Just sayin'...


That's what you (you, docvail) get, when you (me) lend your (mine) näcken vintage blue away for thorough testing and pre-honeymooning

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Pakz said:


> Yeah, I'm a bit surprised at the attacks against the nh35 and Miyota 9015. I mean from an horological perspective the second one is really on par if not better than the 2824-2 and the first one is an absolute workhorse that can survive almost anything. Still a similar category not something like the 8L35 or the 3135 that are a definite step above.
> Not that you can't find a nh35 that keeps better time than a 6r15 or a 8L35... In fact most of my nh35 powered watches keep better time than my MM300 or my Speedmaster. And all of my 9015 powered watches are superb time keepers.
> The only thing that can be said in bad regarding the lower/mid grade Seiko or Miyota movements is that their not as easy to regulate as a base ETA, lacking the dedicated screw...
> 
> Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


More food for thought: two of my most accurate mechanicals are Vostoks - an Amphibia and a Komandirskie. Each has gone 10+ days and will stay at LEAST to the minute with my iPhone. Both were purchased by my wife from eBay and have unknown service history.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> While we we wait on someone willing to look like a dumbass at work, I've got some random thinks as a follow on to recent discussions about value of watches and quality of movements...
> 
> Someone just offered me $600 for my 1 of 6 Atomic Orange Orthos II, a watch which sold for $500 when I had them in stock. Looks like I'll be freeing up another space in my collection.
> 
> ...


Very good points. Something is ultimately worth whatever people are willing to pay for it, and something can definitely be more than the sum of its parts. Lotus uses supercharged Toyota Camry engines in the Evora, for example, which costs $90K. Personally, I don't really care whether a watch has an in-house movement or not. I mostly care about whether the design, quality, and finishing is (in my opinion of course) commensurate with the price being asked. When I see something like one of Omega's in-house co-axial movements, I mostly just think "well that's going to cost a hell of a lot to service" and not "oh, well that makes the watch worth so much more than XYZ and its similarly COSC certified ETA 2836, because that's not in-house." Funnily enough, a Seiko 5 has an in-house movement.

That being said, an NH35 running within COSC specs is certainly cool, but of course that doesn't mean _all _NH35s will run like that. I think Seiko allows a variation of something like +/- 30S a day on the 7S26 and its various hacking and hand-winding cousins. Part of what you're paying for with a higher-end movement is that one running +25 a day wouldn't be allowed to leave the factory. There does definitely seem to be a limit as to how much more people will pay for a fancy movement though, as Monta has discovered.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Cant believe you guys slew the troll without me. Not cool. Not. Cool. At. All. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

What is cool? That my atomic orange with orange bezel is worth like a million bucks. And those skeleton 'flakes on my Santa Fe. Those are fućking cool!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Also, we haven't had any good dog pics in a long time. Here's one:









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bena87 (Mar 9, 2010)

Beyond stoked!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Nacken is here!! Here it is, freshly sans bracelet, and next to my current daily driver. The lighting on this shot is crap, but color wise, this is pretty representative of what it "actually" looks like. I have it on the blue CW strap that I normally wear with my Zodiac because the silicone straps (I ended up ordering a few based on Doc's suggestion) aren't here yet, and I have to say this combo kinda works, which is a nice surprise! That means I can wear it on a nice comfy Shell Cordovan strap while I wait a few weeks for the tan CW strap for it. I may also try it on a Strapcode shark mesh, not sure yet.









I LOVE the bezel color, nice job Doc, and props on not using painted aluminum. The steel blue dial is cool too, and as you said, I like how light brings the color out without it being too in your face. That being said, if you guys did an identical run, but with a sky blue sunburst dial ala the Squale 60ATM, I would *SO *buy that watch, and I'd pay twice as much for it. Not joking. I know it's not your usual MO since a vintage Tudor sub never would've looked like that, just saying


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Nacken is here!! Here it is, freshly sans bracelet, and next to my current daily driver. The lighting on this shot is crap, but color wise, this is pretty representative of what it "actually" looks like. I have it on the blue CW strap that I normally wear with my Zodiac because the silicone straps (I ended up ordering a few based on Doc's suggestion) aren't here yet, and I have to say this combo kinda works, which is a nice surprise! That means I can wear it on a nice comfy Shell Cordovan strap while I wait a few weeks for the tan CW strap for it. I may also try it on a Strapcode shark mesh, not sure yet.
> 
> View attachment 12438289
> 
> ...


Congrats! And have to say You have good taste in watches. My list of potential divers to buy is not long, 4 iirc, but both the Näcken and the Cascais are on it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Durkano (Jul 20, 2014)

Just arrived! This is the perfect size watch.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

aicolainen said:


> Congrats! And have to say You have good taste in watches. My list of potential divers to buy is not long, 4 iirc, but both the Näcken and the Cascais are on it!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks! I can definitely recommend both. The Cascais makes a great daily because the ceramic bezel and sapphire glass makes the entire front very scratch resistant. It's also a serious value for what you're getting. The case designs of both watches are very similar, with the Borealis simply being bigger. The main difference pretty much boils down to the polished edges, the ones on the Nacken are larger and more rounded. The crowns on both are excellent, much better than the finicky crown on my Zodiac Seawolf. Both wind smoothly, and screw back down with only a little pressure - and the first time, every time, which is more than I can say for the Zodiac. In terms of bezel action, I would say 1. Zodiac, 2. Nacken, 3. Borealis in terms of feel. The Borealis is fine, but there's a noticeable amount of back play particularly when turning it one click. The Nacken has just a tiny bit, the Zodiac has none. In terms of the sound of the click (this is a personal preference) I would say 1. Borealis, 2. Nacken, 3. Zodiac. The Zodiac's action is very positive, but it makes kind of a hollow sounding click, whereas the Cascais makes a satisfying thunk.

The Borealis's bracelet is not made for small wrists like mine. Very few of the links are removable, so I couldn't wear it even if I wanted to. It does have by far the best clasp of the trio though. With a 4-position ratcheting adjustment/diver's extension that operates with a second set of double push-buttons and can be adjusted on the wrist, in addition to 3-position micro adjustment. Since I'm not any kind of a serious diver, I would prefer that over the Nacken's fold over safety clasp. Since I don't wear bracelets though, none of this really matters to me.









Blue vs. blue, Nacken all day. The blue version of the Cascais is fine, it just doesn't do anything for me. Black vs. black on the other hand I definitely prefer the Cascais. I'm not a huge fan of black dial/bezel watches with pure white hands and indices, I find that look to be a little bit jarring. The Cascais' light sand colored C3 lume works beautifully with the black dial and ceramic black bezel, and its bat signal grade, Seiko shaming brightness is also very cool. The Cascais' silver hands and indices also turn a lovely copper color under light, which is my favorite characteristic of that watch, and the copper look complements the vintage lume color beautifully, much more so than it would on pure white.


----------



## RedRonin27 (Jul 17, 2014)

5day old photo of my vintage black Nacken...









Sent from my SM-A800I using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

A sunburst Nacken would be an automatic buy. But this time around, can we get a date feature, eh?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Tanjecterly said:


> A sunburst Nacken would be an automatic buy. But this time around, can we get a date feature, eh?


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> While we we wait on someone willing to look like a dumbass at work, I've got some random thinks as a follow on to recent discussions about value of watches and quality of movements...
> 
> Someone just offered me $600 for my 1 of 6 Atomic Orange Orthos II, a watch which sold for $500 when I had them in stock. Looks like I'll be freeing up another space in my collection.
> 
> ...


That's what i paid for my orange PO oh I say it is quite worth it


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Thanks! I can definitely recommend both. The Cascais makes a great daily because the ceramic bezel and sapphire glass makes the entire front very scratch resistant. It's also a serious value for what you're getting. The case designs of both watches are very similar, with the Borealis simply being bigger. The main difference pretty much boils down to the polished edges, the ones on the Nacken are larger and more rounded. The crowns on both are excellent, much better than the finicky crown on my Zodiac Seawolf. Both wind smoothly, and screw back down with only a little pressure - and the first time, every time, which is more than I can say for the Zodiac. In terms of bezel action, I would say 1. Zodiac, 2. Nacken, 3. Borealis in terms of feel. The Borealis is fine, but there's a noticeable amount of back play particularly when turning it one click. The Nacken has just a tiny bit, the Zodiac has none. In terms of the sound of the click (this is a personal preference) I would say 1. Borealis, 2. Nacken, 3. Zodiac. The Zodiac's action is very positive, but it makes kind of a hollow sounding click, whereas the Cascais makes a satisfying thunk.
> 
> The Borealis's bracelet is not made for small wrists like mine. Very few of the links are removable, so I couldn't wear it even if I wanted to. It does have by far the best clasp of the trio though. With a 4-position ratcheting adjustment/diver's extension that operates with a second set of double push-buttons and can be adjusted on the wrist, in addition to 3-position micro adjustment. Since I'm not any kind of a serious diver, I would prefer that over the Nacken's fold over safety clasp. Since I don't wear bracelets though, none of this really matters to me.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot for sharing your experience sir. 
My biggest issue with regards to divers is my small wrists. The NTH subs combine nice design with perfect size, so that feels like very safe choice.
The Cascais, all though larger in diameter isn't to bad overall, at least on paper. There are also rumors of a shorter bracelet. I'm not totally convinced it won't look ridiculous on my wrist, but I'm tempted to try it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Thanks Doc, but it's from Amazon so it will be extremely easy to return if the look doesn't work. I'm also not all that concerned if it's not 100% perfect, as the silicone strap will mostly just be on it if I'm taking it swimming, or doing some type of sweaty activity. When I'm wearing it regularly, it will be on a CW "camel" oak leather strap which should contrast with the blue very nicely. I really wish someone else made XS length leather straps with QR pins so I'd have more choices, but _no one _does, at least not that I'm aware of, so my choices are Christopher Ward, or Christopher Ward.
> 
> View attachment 12435139


I'll have to try these. I have a few of the Stowa shorter straps that are very nice but quick release is always a bit of fun.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Under the heading of, "well, that beats a stick in the eye..."

Last week, out of nowhere, I got an email from one of the managers at my old warehouse. It seems they stumbled upon a box containing 10 of the watches we'd previously counted as stolen (or just otherwise lost somehow - I was pretty skeptical they could lose an entire box of a single SKU to theft).

So, if any of you were heartbroken you didn't get a Blue/Gray Orthos II, they'll be back in stock and ready to ship early this week. I've even marked them down to $400, like the other Orthos versions.

Orthos II - Sapphire Blue - Janis Trading Company


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ugh! And just when I'm lowering my white-dial-watch-count, I see pictures of the Santa Fe and... ugh! Got to be strong!!!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gelocks said:


> Ugh! And just when I'm lowering my white-dial-watch-count, I see pictures of the Santa Fe and... ugh! Got to be strong!!!!


Technically, that's not a Santa Fe. He modded it.

Let's call that one the Santa Hwa.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

aicolainen said:


> Thanks a lot for sharing your experience sir.
> My biggest issue with regards to divers is my small wrists. The NTH subs combine nice design with perfect size, so that feels like very safe choice.
> The Cascais, all though larger in diameter isn't to bad overall, at least on paper. There are also rumors of a shorter bracelet. I'm not totally convinced it won't look ridiculous on my wrist, but I'm tempted to try it.


Yep, it was ultimately the Nacken's size that sold me on it. If I could wear the 60ATM Squalematic I would've gotten that, but I can't. It's over 43mm, and way too long for my wrists L2L, and too tall. We all have different definitions of what looks ridiculously oversized. The Cascais has a much thinner bezel than the Nacken, so the dial looks huge in comparison, more like a 43mm. It doesn't wear as big as it looks though, it's kind of strange that way. The lugs cross my wrist nearly identically to the Nacken (it's only 1mm difference) but the dial itself covers a broader area, and it's 22mm lug width, so it definitely has more "wrist presence." I'm not bothered by it, but I could definitely see how some people might think it's too big. It's interesting how different it looks compared to say the 42mm SKX, which looks a lot smaller on the wrist even though it isn't at all (diameter, not L2L).

I also really can't overstate how awesome the lume is. The lume on the Nacken is fine, pretty strong on the bezel and hands, but the indices start fading pretty fast. At full blast though the Cascais is off the charts, it beats everything else that I've seen, including my old Lum-tec, and it also outlasts everything else I have too. My SKX mod with its SARB059 dial is very good, but not that good.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

dmnc said:


> I'll have to try these. I have a few of the Stowa shorter straps that are very nice but quick release is always a bit of fun.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


QR is *the best.* I love being able to come home from doing whatever, pop off the silicone strap, wash it and the watch, and then throw on whatever leather strap I feel like wearing that day in about 5 seconds, with zero worry of scratching the lugs, and no need for a tool. The CW straps aren't quite as nice as some others like ColaReb that you can get for similar money, but the convenience more than makes up for it.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Can't seem to take this off.. not sure if it's still "new watch fever" or if it's becoming my new favorite. 
Had some trouble deciding what I like best for a strap, but think I'll settle on this perlon 










Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> Technically, that's not a Santa Fe. He modded it.
> 
> Let's call that one the Santa Hwa.


Okay, i WILL get docRailed'n'roasted for this: but I really do like this mod and could see something like it somewhere in the future becoming a version --- the Santa Phwah! 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

I'm finding I like the Amphion Vintage on brown leather a lot more than expected










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

My Barracuda appears to have landed in the UK, presumably with customs at Heathrow. Maybe arrive by mid week?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> Under the heading of, "well, that beats a stick in the eye..."
> 
> Last week, out of nowhere, I got an email from one of the managers at my old warehouse. It seems they stumbled upon a box containing 10 of the watches we'd previously counted as stolen (or just otherwise lost somehow - I was pretty skeptical they could lose an entire box of a single SKU to theft).
> 
> ...


The sapphire blue Orthos is nice, but wish they had found a box of Atomic Orange Orthos instead!


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Under the heading of, "well, that beats a stick in the eye..."
> 
> Last week, out of nowhere, I got an email from one of the managers at my old warehouse. It seems they stumbled upon a box containing 10 of the watches we'd previously counted as stolen (or just otherwise lost somehow - I was pretty skeptical they could lose an entire box of a single SKU to theft).
> 
> ...


I was saving for a devil ray but snagged one of these on impulse because I did miss it the first time around. I am bad at holding money.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Amazing what variety and quality you can come up with via WUS. Pictured arrivals this week.

1. HKED 1963 Seagull ST19 chronograph with swapped blue hands (much more readable than gold hands)

2. Chinese Watch subforum project watch with the huge, 3-day Peacock movement. Japanese Pilot incarnation

3. HKED Bundeswehr 2.0 also with the ST19 movement

4. Janis Trading / NTH Näcken Barracuda

5. MWW Seiko 62MAS Homage

Thanks to everyone involved in these projects. A shame that they can't be all worn at the same time.

Skip










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

Here are couple photos of mine to share. Yes I'm keeping it unwrapped and unworn after two weeks.

What I love about Vintage Black especially is it's timeless and alive look, which I was sold on from the very first minute - a bit military and a bit retro, perfect combination for all times. As stated before pictures do not do it justice, when charged the lume just pops out of faded metal and makes it really alive even in common light conditions, just get a little shade. Dial is very eyecatching and subtle at the same time, and I can say that the whole look of the watch changes depending on light, this makes it really interesting, you can always find something new in it. Someone said before that Vintage black is the real grail, I can totally agree.
In addition to all details and efforts that Doc put in it (that you all know) this makes it kind of true companion that may be with you always and in any situation. I found everything i wanted in it, how... No secret Chris wanted it to be like this and he made it. When I first got it I thought ''the matrix has me'', in fact you all know it's too good to be true. Manually winded it keeps +3 seconds a day, what to want more ?!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 12442241


THAT is an awesome pic of the Barracuda, and makes me miss mine (it's currently on WhirledTour with the Fanmen - last I saw, @el_geek had it). I've found it can be very hard to capture its color, especially the bezel.

Hope you like it. It's become one of my personal favorites among all the Subs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

s.z said:


> ...No secret Chris wanted it to be like this and he made it...


Actually...the Vintage Black was all Aaron - not only his idea, rather than something I asked him to illustrate, but it was also his personal favorite, even though it was always the least favorite among the Fanmen, and almost never saw the light of day.

Later, it was the least favorite in our pre-order interest survey. I almost killed it off, but with all the work Aaron put into the Subs' designs, I didn't want to kill off his favorite, so we pressed on.

It was the version which sold in the smallest numbers during the initial wave of pre-orders, and again, I gave serious thought to killing it, but we pressed on. It was only after we delivered them that people took a shine to that one, and it became the first to sell out.

We made exactly 50 of that version - 10 with date, 40 without date. I'm pretty sure we're done with it.

I guess if I'm going to say that, I might as well reveal the numbers for each version we've produced to date.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> Actually...the Vintage Black was all Aaron - not only his idea, rather than something I asked him to illustrate, but it was also his personal favorite, even though it was always the least favorite among the Fanmen, and almost never saw the light of day.
> 
> Later, it was the least favorite in our pre-order interest survey. I almost killed it off, but with all the work Aaron put into the Subs' designs, I didn't want to kill off his favorite, so we pressed on.
> 
> ...


Wow! Both my subs are 1 of 10!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I guess if I'm going to say that, I might as well reveal the numbers for each version we've produced to date.


Out of curiosity, why such low production numbers for date versions? Do you find that it's something most people don't want? I'm fine with it not being on my modern blue because that isn't intended to be a daily driver, but I wouldn't have bought a no date Cascais which is intended for that role.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Out of curiosity, why such low production numbers for date versions? Do you find that it's something most people don't want? I'm fine with it not being on my modern blue because that isn't intended to be a daily driver, but I wouldn't have bought a no date Cascais which is intended for that role.


When given a choice, I always choose a date so the watch can be a daily driver, if needed.

When not given the choice, no date is not a deal breaker. Kind of a breath of fresh air not to have dates on OVM, A9, JelliSub and blue Amphion, as I have dates on OWC, black Amphion and Gigandet milsubs.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> When given a choice, I always choose a date so the watch can be a daily driver, if needed.
> 
> When not given the choice, no date is not a deal breaker. Kind of a breath of fresh air not to have dates on OVM, A9, JelliSub and blue Amphion, as I have dates on OWC, black Amphion and Gigandet milsubs.


I used to insist on a date window. But past couple of Janis purchases have been no date, and can't say I miss it. And they have been daily drivers the past week+. When I think about it, I check date maybe a couple times a week on a watch. Phone/computer/paper wall calendar (gasp) keep me in the know. And not having to worry about setting the date actually makes it easier to grab and go.


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

docvail said:


> Actually...the Vintage Black was all Aaron - not only his idea, rather than something I asked him to illustrate, but it was also his personal favorite, even though it was always the least favorite among the Fanmen, and almost never saw the light of day.
> 
> Later, it was the least favorite in our pre-order interest survey. I almost killed it off, but with all the work Aaron put into the Subs' designs, I didn't want to kill off his favorite, so we pressed on.
> 
> ...


I feel what you are saying, this also makes it even more special and a great unique piece in future. And what is more important on someones wrist right now. Like in that fairytale when a little goose grew up in a gorgeous swan, not sure if it is well known in US. Every sub has its own character I think, some are more straight, some need to find its faithful owner , but according to numbers every sub is special ! Still i understand Aaron for sure..
It can be pretty comparable to one of my life experiences - I had an opportunity to own a bmw z3 coupe for about a year (actually it is a shooting brake made out of convertible, design which is now used by ferrari and porsche only) which was made by official bmw enthusiasts but has not been planned by bmw as a model, numbers of production were really low. It also had strong retro vibes in it while being rather modern at the same time. One may like it or not, but kept in well condition it will always be highly demanded and became an instant classic with affordable pricing. In my life it left unforgettable memories .
I will try to make more photos soon that can represent all its goodness


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Out of curiosity, why such low production numbers for date versions? Do you find that it's something most people don't want? I'm fine with it not being on my modern blue because that isn't intended to be a daily driver, but I wouldn't have bought a no date Cascais which is intended for that role.


It's complicated.

Production numbers are generally based on pre-order sales, plus I might make some adjustment based on experience and my own intuition.

Assuming we plan to offer a model both with or without a date, the production numbers for each version are typically based on how well either version sells in pre-order, plus maybe some adjustment.

I think a higher percentage of WIS prefer a no-date when compared to non-WIS, and since it's mostly WIS pre-ordering from me...you get a lot of no-dates in the mix.

So, if you look at the Oberon, we made an equal number of with date/no-date, because they sold equally well in pre-order. In other versions, the date or no-date might have outsold the other in pre-order, so we made 4-to-1, or whatever.

Whether or not I'll offer a model with or without a date, or as a no-date only, really depends on the other variations being made, where the date window will be located, whether or not I think the date wheel color will ruin the design based on where the window is, etc.

So, for example, let's say we're making 300 NTH Subs, and one or more versions would be absolutely ruined by putting the date at 3, like the Scorpene or Oberon, or any version with vintage lume. The Oberon and Scorpene need to be 3-6-9-12, not *date*-6-9-12.

For those, the date at 3 is a non-starter.

But it's not just those two. If you look at all 13 Subs versions, there's only ONE version that *didn't* have an optional date window *and *it would *not* have been ruined by putting the date at 3 - the Nacken Modern Blue. That's the ONLY one with both white lume and an hour marker that's close enough to the size the date window would be to not throw off the balance of the dial

Any other version, you either had an optional date window, or putting that window at 3 would have killed it.

Trust me on this, because I know EXACTLY where that date window would be, EXACTLY how large it would be, and how AWFUL it would look in place of the marker in the Santa Fe, the Amphion Vintage, etc.

People think they hate the 4 or 4:30 date window, but they never tried to design a watch with the date at 3. Date windows belong where I put them.

Our other choices for date window location with the crown located at 3 are limited to slightly past 4 or ~4:30. There are no other choices.

I think slightly past 4 looks like hell, so that leaves us with the date window at ~4:30.

Further, in order to avoid one of many potential headaches in production, we decide that no matter what version it is, ANY version which has an optional date window will have it at ~4:30. For the sake of avoiding a problem, the window will be at 4:30, or there won't be one.

Then I look at the dial color:

It's black? Fine, date window optional, with black date wheel, at ~4:30.

It's white? Fine, date window optional, with white date wheel, at ~4:30.

It's blue, brown, off-white or some other color other than black or white (the two standard date wheel colors)? Nope, no date window, because a white or black wheel showing through at ~4:30 will look like hell on a blue, brown, or off white dial.

I did that with the Phantoms, where I put a white date wheel under an off-white dial, and I'll never do it again.

Yes, I realize some people think they need the date window to be there so badly that they'd be willing to live with the color mis-match. Those people are wrong.

No one needs the date window that badly. You wear a watch to tell the time without having to look at your phone 20 times per day. If you need to know the date, look at your phone. I guarantee you won't have to look more than twice per day.

It's a small price to pay in order to avoid ruining a good design with an awful date window placement/date wheel color.

"Why don't you put the date window at 3? I hate the date being at 4 or 4:30 anyway."

Because it doesn't always look right at 3. I give you the 3-6-9-12 dial Scorpene or Oberon. Case closed. I'm still kicking myself for putting the date window at 3 on the Acionna (which required re-printing the date wheels, thanks to having the crown at 4, so I know what I'm talking about when I talk about the problems here).

The date wheel is located where it is on the movement. I can't move it somewhere else just because it cuts off a marker, and the window has to be large enough for the date to be seen. It doesn't always look right, especially not if it's cutting off or replacing the hour marker that would otherwise be there, and the marker's size isn't approximately the same as the window, or when the lume color isn't white, as it isn't on many of the Subs.

It often still looks like hell, even at 3, and upsets the balance of the design. At least it's somewhat hidden when I put it at 4:30, and the date wheel color matches the dial color. In my mind, as a designer, that's one of the better locations - out of the way, hidden, unobtrusive, but there when you 'need' it.

"Why don't you put the date window at 6?"

First, that doesn't really solve anything when the dial design is 3-6-9-12 numbering, and still isn't ideal when you've got a non-white lume color and/or a marker size that isn't very similar to the date window size, as in may of the Subs. Even if it's "symmetrical", it can still cause design problems when you put it there.

Even if it's not a 3-6-9-12 dial, and you are using white lume, and the markers are about the same size/shape as the window, in the case of watches with the 9015, the movement used in the Subs, I did that once, and I'll never do it again (just like I'm never re-printing date wheels again, because of the problems doing so causes).

Miyota only makes the 6 o'clock date wheel version of the 9015 once or twice per year, and you have to order it well in advance, so it can put a wrench into production plans. For the Cerberus, I had to order them, and pre-pay for them, 4 or 5 months before we actually needed them.

Making things worse, Miyota doesn't put enough emphasis on printing the 6 o'clock date wheels straight enough, so you always end up with some percentage where the date doesn't sit perfectly centered within the window. And since my customers are among the most nitpicky people on the planet, I catch hell when the date is off by a hair, even if it's fully within the window, and the dates on either side can't be seen poking in.

I put a lot of thought into these things, whether people realize it or not.

The date window, when there is one, is EXACTLY where it should be, and if there isn't one, it's because there SHOULDN'T be one.

"But I won't buy a watch without the date window!"

No problem. There's one less version for you to think about. Consider one of the other versions, with the optional date window. Life's too short to dwell on what we can't have.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Wow! Both my subs are 1 of 10!


This is part of why it kills me to see someone selling an NTH Sub for $400, and why I often think they'll end up regretting it.

Think of how much people are willing to pay for a Seiko "Spork", a model probably produced in the thousands, maybe tens of thousands, but has since been discontinued and sold out.

That's basically a Seiko SKX007 with a different dial - same non-hacking, non-hand-winding low-beat movement, same hardlex crystal, same weak specs - and you'd be lucky to find a used on in good condition for less than $450.

EDIT - the most recent one sold for $600 just five days ago.

Selling a "mint" condition NTH Sub (or Tropics, while we're talking here, just us girls - they were all produced in VERY small numbers - just 5 to 65 pieces per version), one of 10, even one of 75, but now sold out, with a better movement, better components, and better specs, for $400?

Seriously?

Some people need a check-up from the neck-up.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> This is part of why it kills me to see someone selling an NTH Sub for $400, and why I often think they'll end up regretting it.
> 
> Think of how much people are willing to pay for a Seiko "Spork", a model probably produced in the thousands, maybe tens of thousands, but has since been discontinued and sold out.
> 
> ...


In collecting, scarcity doesn't always mean valuable. Neither does initial quality. Tons of great cars have come and gone but then people pay good money for a Nova...which was a cheap ass car by design. Gear heads bought them as a gut job project because they were cheap. They became popular by reputation. It isn't even that good looking of a car but some people still collect them. Ironically I think the same can be said tm for the Skx. Error baseball cards used to be more valuable because they were hard to find. Now they typically are not because nobody cares. It was almost a fad.

There is no using logic to predict what will be valuable after it's initial run. That's why I only collect what I enjoy. If it turns out to be valuable, great. If not, I still enjoy it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

idvsego said:


> In collecting, scarcity doesn't always mean valuable. Neither does initial quality. Tons of great cars have come and gone but then people pay good money for a Nova...which was a cheap ass car by design. Gear heads bought them as a gut job project because they were cheap. They became popular by reputation. It isn't even that good looking of a car but some people still collect them. Ironically I think the same can be said tm for the Skx. Error baseball cards used to be more valuable because they were hard to find. Now they typically are not because nobody cares. It was almost a fad.
> 
> There is no using logic to predict what will be valuable after it's initial run. That's why I only collect what I enjoy. If it turns out to be valuable, great. If not, I still enjoy it.


Goddam all you people using logic on me!

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

docvail said:


> THAT is an awesome pic of the Barracuda, and makes me miss mine (it's currently on WhirledTour with the Fanmen - last I saw, @el_geek had it). I've found it can be very hard to capture its color, especially the bezel.
> 
> Hope you like it. It's become one of my personal favorites among all the Subs.


Thanks Doc.....took that shot by a window on an overcast day so the light was diffused which helped. When you revealed this latest batch a few months ago and I saw the Barracuda, I knew I would be getting that one. So yes, I do like it. My Nacken is one of my favorites in the watch drawer so I already knew how this would wear. The brown is so unusual and such a nice departure from the black, white and blue. Thanks Doc for bringing it to us.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> It's complicated.
> 
> People think they hate the 4 or 4:30 date window, but they never tried to design a watch with the date at 3. Date windows belong where I put them.


I generally hate the 4:30 window, not because of the location, but because of the sideways slanted number. Drives me nuts. I'm not at all bothered by the 3 o'clock date and the 6. 9, 12 markers on my Seawolf, for example. The date window takes up roughly the same amount of area as the 6 marker on the opposite side of the dial, and so I think overall it remains pretty balanced. The date window on the Longines HydroConquest on the other hand I think looks bad, because it's too small compared to the massive 6, 9, and 12 markers.

6 o'clock dates I think can work very well. The 40mm Divers 65 I think does the date perfectly, as does the Cascais. The 6 o'clock marker on the non date Cascais I think looks too big, so cutting off the top to put the date there is perfect. The only time I like a 4:30 date is when the number is right side up, as on a B&R or Sinn.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

I am still glad to be wearing my superior Seiko Spork homage when I don't know which watch to wear.
Sure Seiko has a more extensive history, but this watch like Doc mentioned has so much more going for it!
Out of all the watches in my collection this watch still gets the most wrist time!


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> View attachment 12442989


Thx doc for putting this here.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> I generally hate the 4:30 window, not because of the location, but because of the sideways slanted number. Drives me nuts. I'm not at all bothered by the 3 o'clock date and the 6. 9, 12 markers on my Seawolf, for example. The date window takes up roughly the same amount of area as the 6 marker on the opposite side of the dial, and so I think overall it remains pretty balanced. The date window on the Longines HydroConquest on the other hand I think looks bad, because it's too small compared to the massive 6, 9, and 12 markers.
> 
> 6 o'clock dates I think can work very well. The 40mm Divers 65 I think does the date perfectly, as does the Cascais. The 6 o'clock marker on the non date Cascais I think looks too big, so cutting off the top to put the date there is perfect. The only time I like a 4:30 date is when the number is right side up, as on a B&R or Sinn.


Other makers do a "right side up" date at 4:30. Note the white date wheel. This has a Sellita movement, which Doc is allergic to.


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

Waiting patiently for my Barracuda but wish I'd also ordered a dark gilt as well. In alll the photos it looks awesome, but sometimes your wallet has to the do the thinking for you.


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



yankeexpress said:


> Other makers do a "right side up" date at 4:30. Note the white date wheel. This has a Sellita movement, which Doc is allergic to.


Interesting...I don't think I've ever been bothered by a date in any position. The 3 is fine but normally results in dial markings being omitted or cut short.

Honestly, with the 4:30 date if your limbs are akimbo in natural wear the date is no more askew that the rest of the watch! It's very relative to how you hold your arms. I don't see many people telling time by snapping their arms and wrists up to a vertical position directly in front of their faces, but I suppose it is just one of the those things...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## nemorior (Jan 1, 2017)

docvail said:


> I put a lot of thought into these things, whether people realize it or not.
> 
> The date window, when there is one, is EXACTLY where it should be, and if there isn't one, it's because there SHOULDN'T be one.


Thanks for that!
I generally find that I much prefer watches without a date window. More often than not they mess up the symmetry, the date field has the wrong color, makes the dial unbalanced, etc. 
I especially dislike the date window at the typical 3 o'clock position.

I'm sure there are watches where it works (I've seen good designs with the date at 6 and I also don't mind the way that Damasko does it), but given a choice I'd definitely go dateless more often than not.

I've seen so much bad stuff (even for high-prices watches/brands) that I really appreciate your design choices regarding the date - especially offering dateless versions whenever possible


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I generally hate the 4:30 window, not because of the location, but because of the sideways slanted number. Drives me nuts. I'm not at all bothered by the 3 o'clock date and the 6. 9, 12 markers on my Seawolf, for example. The date window takes up roughly the same amount of area as the 6 marker on the opposite side of the dial, and so I think overall it remains pretty balanced. The date window on the Longines HydroConquest on the other hand I think looks bad, because it's too small compared to the massive 6, 9, and 12 markers.
> 
> 6 o'clock dates I think can work very well. The 40mm Divers 65 I think does the date perfectly, as does the Cascais. The 6 o'clock marker on the non date Cascais I think looks too big, so cutting off the top to put the date there is perfect. The only time I like a 4:30 date is when the number is right side up, as on a B&R or Sinn.
> 
> ...


I don't like that 3 o'clock date on either the Zodiac or the Longines. In both cases, I think it ruins the balance of the design, but that's only my opinion.

With Sinn, I suspect they've been able to special-order their movements with date wheels how they want them. For us smaller guys, especially when working with the bigger suppliers, I'm not sure it's possible to get them to do that, or what it would cost. If it's not possible, or not cost-feasible, then we're stuck with the date wheels with how they are, unless we want to re-print them (and I don't).

Unfortunately, that Sinn is ruined in another way - the minute and seconds hands are clearly too short.

But what do I know? I'm just a no-name brand-owner/designer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Other makers do a "right side up" date at 4:30. Note the white date wheel. This has a Sellita movement, which Doc is allergic to.


Not allergic per se. If Sellita's offered better bang-for-the-buck, and had a better reputation among watchmakers, I'd have no issue with them.

My issue with that watch is the white date wheel under a blue sunburst dial. Ugh. Someone should be shot.

One of the Fanmen told me he'd traded messages with Peter Helson (owner of microbrand Helson). Helson did an AMAZING job of color-matching the date wheels to the dials of the SharkDiver range, but it apparently was an exhaustive process of trial-and-error, and unless I'm mistaken, I think I was told Peter said he'd never do it again, or wouldn't do it again, had he known then what he knows now, or something like that.

Just wait until I'm in charge of everything, boys. People will snap-to or heads will roll. You'll be up to your waist-bands in color-matched date wheels and smelly cheeses.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

6 o'clock date windows done right IMHO. STP and Sellita movements.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

^^^ I like the cut of your jib, Yankeeexpress.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Tanjecterly said:


> ^^^ I like the cut of your jib, Yankeeexpress.


Gybe Ho!

[for the non-sailors: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jibe


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

As much as I really prefer to have a date on all of my watches I'm also am not in favor of putting it there just because. I agree some watches look like the date was an after thought at best and the date completely ruins many as well. However when a date is pulled off and looks "right" on a watch I like I'm a very happy camper.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> 6 o'clock date windows done right IMHO. STP and Sellita movements.


Can't argue with either of those. I think I'd do both the same way.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Which else today? One of a kind sunshine. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> My issue with that watch is the white date wheel under a blue sunburst dial. Ugh. Someone should be shot.


Doc may hold the minority opinion among watchmakers on white upright 4:30 date wheels under sunburst blue dials...here's another:



ETA-2892


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Doc may hold the minority opinion among watchmakers on white upright 4:30 date wheels under sunburst blue dials...here's another:
> 
> ETA-2892


I've never been uncomfortable being in the minority, or even the sole possessor of the correct answer.

There's no better-tasting cookie than having been right while everyone else has been oh so tragically wrong.










Man...even I think my faux-arrogance is starting to sound a bit too real.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaaannnndddd...speaking of 6 o'clock date windows...

I think I'm down to my last Cerberus, the gray/red.

Last one, y'all.

Cerberus Gray & Red


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Proco2020 said:


> Waiting patiently for my Barracuda but wish I'd also ordered a dark gilt as well. In alll the photos it looks awesome, but sometimes your wallet has to the do the thinking for you.


Yes... and I do hate when my wallet has to do the thinking...

Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

You get very odd results on eBay when you do a search of NTH Nacken.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Unfortunately, that Sinn is ruined in another way - the minute and seconds hands are clearly too short.
> 
> But what do I know? I'm just a no-name brand-owner/designer.


Good catch! The minute hand doesn't even reach the minute track! What was Sinn thinking there? Hands that are too short also drive me crazy.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> One of the Fanmen told me he'd traded messages with Peter Helson (owner of microbrand Helson). Helson did an AMAZING job of color-matching the date wheels to the dials of the SharkDiver range, but it apparently was an exhaustive process of trial-and-error, and unless I'm mistaken, I think I was told Peter said he'd never do it again, or wouldn't do it again, had he known then what he knows now, or something like that.
> 
> Just wait until I'm in charge of everything, boys. People will snap-to or heads will roll. You'll be up to your waist-bands in color-matched date wheels and smelly cheeses.


It's interesting, several micros have done color matched date wheels (Eza Sealander being one off the top of my head) while the big guys generally don't do it. Visitor also _lumed _the date wheel on the Duneshore. Awesome.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Ech. Still waiting on mine - it passed through customs on 16th and there's been no updates since (at least I would have expected en-route notices on monday morning). Sent an inquiry to the mail (postnord), if they don't respond today, tomorrow morning I'm calling them and asking wtf is up. This much delay is unusual...

Gaaaaah why don't we have instant point-to-point star trek teleporters yet?!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

^^^^ Yep! Gorgeous!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

The vintage blue is fantastic; sold mine only because I decided to keep the SMP 2531. But, thats why i got the Santa Fe. The texture of the blue vintage dial, which is same as santa fe, is great in pics but better on the wrist. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Amphion Vintage Blue









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

A flurry of activity. My watch is now held in Customs in Coventry.

i live 30 miles from London and and probably 100 from Coventry. Do we not have customs clearance in or near London.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> It's interesting, several micros have done color matched date wheels (Eza Sealander being one off the top of my head) while the big guys generally don't do it. Visitor also _lumed _the date wheel on the Duneshore. Awesome.


Indeed.

Among the problems I see in doing it:

1. It adds to the production cost, yet, depending on how it's done, it's not something I can always bake into my retail pricing.

For example, no one would "pay extra" for the Acionna because I re-printed the date wheels to get the window at 3 when the crown was at 4.

Maybe the color-matched wheels make the Helson Sharkdiver more appealing, and that helps sales, but maybe (and this seems to be most) people just look at the specs and components, and decide, "I'm not spending more than $____ for a watch with ______, ______, and ______ from a microbrand".

I look at the 40mm Helson with sapphire bezel, color-matched date-wheel, Miyota 9015, 500m WR, solid end-link bracelet AND a rubber strap - all for $599 - and I know that's a watch which really ought to be $100 more.

What does the Visitor Duneshore cost? According to the website, pre-orders start at $650. To me, that's reasonable, knowing what I do about production times and costs. To most WIS, that's outrageously over-priced. Most WIS are wrong, but I haven't got the energy, nor the ability, to persuade them all.

2. It adds to the production time. Time is money, especially for a small brand trying to squeeze at least two production cycles into every year, and financing production costs with pre-orders. See above. I can't necessarily bake the added cost into my pricing.

3. Some of the movements will be ruined in doing it.

If the movement manufacturer is willing to supply new assembled movements with the window at 3 when the crown is at 4, that's one thing, but they're not going to do the various color date wheels, or the trial and error, involved in making the SharkDivers.

That means the assembly team have to remove the date wheels from assembled movements, bleach them, have them re-printed, and then re-assemble the movements.

Inevitably, some of the movements will be broken in the process, which increases the production cost, because we have to replace them. See above, re, what I can't bake into my retail pricing.

4. The wheels could be re-printed wrong. Ugh, what a disaster.

Depending on what was done wrong, they might not realize it until they started, or possibly completed, assembly. Imagine having 300-500 pieces with the date not centered in the window.

Even if they realized it pre-assembly. They'd have to re-print them again (adding delays), assuming that it's even possible, or replace all the date wheels (more delays and cost).

5. It adds to the defect rate.

There's always the possibility something was damaged or mis-assembled during the re-assembly, but it doesn't present itself until later. Additionally, re-printed date wheels will often be slightly thicker or have rough spots, and present some latent date-change issues. Both of those potential issues would add to my costs, when I have to repair them under warranty. That's another cost I can't bake into my pricing.

The thing about WIS views on pricing is that WIS tend to compare specs-for-specs and price-for-price, but rarely recognize when they're comparing two watches with very similar specs/components, yet production costs which could easily be 20%-30% different, translating into retail prices of $450-$500 compared to $600-$700.

They don't often consciously recognize the added value of a color-matched date-wheel or correctly-located date window. No one factors in the different costs of the box the watch comes in, a triple-layer dial, a double-domed (vs single-domed or flat) crystal, not just luming the hour markers but also all the minute markers, lumed crowns, stamped case backs, etc.

But there are lots of little things, which when added up, can significantly add to the production cost. When we're doing a new design, I always have in the back of my mind, "what's this going to add to our costs and production time, and is it something that's going to help sales, is it something people will be willing to pay for?" In some cases, I don't care, especially if it's a nominal item, or if it's something that will get noticed. In others, I have to rule it out as being added cost with no added "WIS-value".

In my view, if we can get the movement manufacturer to supply assembled movements with the date wheel configured how we want it - i.e., in either black or white, with the date window position wherever we want it - and it doesn't cost any more or add to the production time, then it makes sense to do it.

In those cases, the manufacturer is producing the movements to our specifications, so the wheels would be printed as needed the first time, pre-assembly.

Otherwise, I design for what we have. If we've only got white wheels with the date at 3 or ~4:30, then that's what I've got to work with.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Proco2020 said:


> A flurry of activity. My watch is now held in Customs in Coventry.
> 
> i live 30 miles from London and and probably 100 from Coventry. Do we not have customs clearance in or near London.


My new NTH's are the same. I've had US parcels delivered before, and they all seem to come into the UK via Coventry. I guess its the route in either for USA sourced mail generally, or that USPS use

...and I'm near half again as far away from Coventry as you are :-(

Still, next step will be Parcel Force delivering the customs charge note (which has come by regular mail the last 2 times I've had this), then hopefully the watches to us both once those we've paid them - which I still think is a mad way to do it (just mail me the customs note so I can pay immediately & you get get on & deliver my watch for heaven's sake, its 2017) and takes far too long. I'm guessing / hoping should be on the wrist by the end of this week, and I'm as excited as hell about that


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You folks outside the USA, when you check your tracking, are you using the links you received by email, or are you logging into the website, and using the link in your order status?

The reason I ask is this - I believe the links in the emails simply go out to the USPS website, and once our US mail hands off to whatever courier they do in the destination country, there may not be any more information to follow at that point. 

However, the links in the order details on the website go out to "AfterShip", which apparently tracks the shipments even after the hand-off is made, and will show which courier has it, where it is in their process, etc.

To find those links, log into your customer account on the website, go to your "order status", click on "view order details", then look for the tracking number link at bottom right. 

Whenever I'm waiting on a delivery, once I get to the tracking page on the courier's website, I'll bookmark it for easy reference in the days to follow, so I'm not always going back to the email, or trying to find the tracking link.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> You folks outside the USA, when you check your tracking, are you using the links you received by email, or are you logging into the website, and using the link in your order status?


I always do it both  but on mobile device I check via the link that is provided via email. Convenience thing



docvail said:


> Indeed.


I understand this. That's why I bought the näcken, although I didn't handle one before. And that's one of the reasons I convinced a friend of mine buying a nth - I had to lend my näcken away for this, but there are businesses, that should be successful where there are businesses, that shouldn't (don't mean anyone specifically with the latter).

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Cheers Doc,

I use the link from the account page on your website..and then check again against the Parcel Force (the UK delivery partner) tracker. The Parcel Force tracker gets updated slightly ahead, but there hasn't been much in it.

Parcel Force in the UK are generally pretty reliable in getting stuff to you..but from experience they are SLOW, and their customer service isn't great - last time my watch was stuck with them it turns out they hadn't sent out any of the invoices for customs duty because "the machine's been broken for a couple of days"..but they also hadn't told ANY customers about that or notified us in any way.. I only found out by accident trying to track down what had happened by calling them on the phone.

Still, even then, they are about 65 million times better than any of my experiences with Yodel, and lets not talk about Hermes couriers and their tendency to just chuck parcels over the fence into your garden in the pouring rain, ruining the contents (twice!)...

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread - we're here to drool over some fabulous watches, not ..... about courier companies


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

when I was pacing back and forth waiting for my Spectre I clicked the link on both mobile, and my comp at home and work ( Impatient lol). I would then copy the tracking number and pasted that into Canada Post tracking.


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

You can tell your British, same experience


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Yep - you can tell a Brit by the world weary cynicism and tales of poor service every time 

Talking of couriers, I had DPD once lose a watch in between transferring it from Paris airport customs to their 'forwarding facility' at the same darned airport..then spend two weeks kicking responsibility back and forth between International and UK office before they declared it lost...that was a series of fun phone & email conversations....

Only UK company that's been flawless in my experience has been DHL - super quick, and never had a single problem with any of their deliveries to me


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> You folks outside the USA, when you check your tracking, are you using the links you received by email, or are you logging into the website, and using the link in your order status?


I always use an app called 17track. It has a website too I think.

It both deals with the handover from one courier to another (you have to specify destination country) and translates the tracking entries when they're not in your language. I highly recommend it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

Mine must be out for delivery as Parcel Force website says "in Transit" (British/European humour)


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> What does the Visitor Duneshore cost? According to the website, pre-orders start at $650. To me, that's reasonable, knowing what I do about production times and costs. To most WIS, that's outrageously over-priced. Most WIS are wrong, but I haven't got the energy, nor the ability, to persuade them all.


I think that's extremely reasonable. An incredibly unique, all polished case with a curved exhibition caseback (does _anyone_) else do that? Completely unique handset, BGW9 Superluminova on everything, AR coated sapphire, and a 9015 with a custom rotor and custom date wheel for $650? And people are complaining about this, when a freaking _quartz _Aquaracer costs $1600+? I don't get it.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> You folks outside the USA, when you check your tracking, are you using the links you received by email, or are you logging into the website, and using the link in your order status?


Using the tracking nr. in local mail's website (postnord). Since they're the ones intercepting and handling all usps mail. All other services are just web-scrapers or connected systems re-posting the same info. Besides... not sure I even have a usps or "aftership" client account - certainly never set one up. Don't want to, tbh - already way too many passwords all over to remember.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Using the tracking nr. in local mail's website (postnord). Since they're the ones intercepting and handling all usps mail. All other services are just web-scrapers or connected systems re-posting the same info. Besides... not sure I even have a usps or "aftership" client account - certainly never set one up. Don't want to, tbh - already way too many passwords all over to remember.


Works the same way here in Norway, you can track it on the USPS site until it reaches Norway / customs, after that you can only track it through the local delivery partner's tracking system using the original USPS tracking number.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

Gents, for those of you still tracking your shipments, here's another of the Cuda to tide you over while you patiently wait....


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Yep, it was ultimately the Nacken's size that sold me on it. If I could wear the 60ATM Squalematic I would've gotten that, but I can't. It's over 43mm, and way too long for my wrists L2L, and too tall. We all have different definitions of what looks ridiculously oversized. The Cascais has a much thinner bezel than the Nacken, so the dial looks huge in comparison, more like a 43mm. It doesn't wear as big as it looks though, it's kind of strange that way. The lugs cross my wrist nearly identically to the Nacken (it's only 1mm difference) but the dial itself covers a broader area, and it's 22mm lug width, so it definitely has more "wrist presence." I'm not bothered by it, but I could definitely see how some people might think it's too big. It's interesting how different it looks compared to say the 42mm SKX, which looks a lot smaller on the wrist even though it isn't at all (diameter, not L2L).
> 
> I also really can't overstate how awesome the lume is. The lume on the Nacken is fine, pretty strong on the bezel and hands, but the indices start fading pretty fast. At full blast though the Cascais is off the charts, it beats everything else that I've seen, including my old Lum-tec, and it also outlasts everything else I have too. My SKX mod with its SARB059 dial is very good, but not that good.


You should really think before you write these things publicly. Being a lumahloic, you just don't give me any choice. 
I read through the whole pre-order thread on the Borealis forum, and the new bracelet seem to be available very soon. Probably even before the funding is available 

Since we are already off-topic (Janis brands), is it only the Squalematic you are interested in? I predict with very high probability to own the 50 atmos (matt/blasted) at some point. Since we seem to have some of the same preferences, I would be interested to know we you don't consider it an alternative to the Squalematic.

Doc, sorry to go off topic. I really want a Näcken too, it's just a timing issue. Now I must look at ways to ease the pain


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

redzebra said:


> Gents, for those of you still tracking your shipments, here's another of the Cuda to tide you over while you patiently wait....
> 
> View attachment 12448541


I know doc, you once said "Green" could not be made on the stainless steel bezels and such. I am just curious. Would you mind to share the knowledge about the coloring of the bezels? Note: this is not a suggestion to what color you "should" go for in a prospective next edition. Just asking, because I imagined, that a merely "unusual" color like brown would've been more difficult to place on S/S. I don't mind, if your answer results in a long read


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I think that's extremely reasonable. An incredibly unique, all polished case with a curved exhibition caseback (does _anyone_) else do that? Completely unique handset, BGW9 Superluminova on everything, AR coated sapphire, and a 9015 with a custom rotor and custom date wheel for $650? And people are complaining about this, when a freaking _quartz _Aquaracer costs $1600+? I don't get it.


You don't get it. I don't get it.

But every day I read online comments from people who complain about micro-brand pricing, many of whom ALSO expect to be able to reach the owner of the company with any question, day or night, and get a near-immediate response, AND will go online to complain if there's even the slightest issue with the watch or delay in the service.

Many WIS expectations are completely unrealistic. You can't have fantastic/original design AND top specs AND top quality AND fantastic service AND get it all for 20%-40% less than what mainstream brands charge, even for their watches which DON'T have fantastic/original designs OR top specs OR top quality NOR do you get fantastic service, delivered personally by the brand's owner/CEO.

"Cutting out the middle man" is a joke. I AM the middle man. Good luck getting my level of service out of my factory when you buy one watch.

But, yeah, tell me more about why my prices should be LESS than what the mainstream brands charge, and the wonderful joy you get from all that "heritage", "staying power" (as if big brands never go out of business), "in-house" movements, and all the other intangible nonsense people go on and on about whenever the micro-brand pricing debate re-ignites.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Using the tracking nr. in local mail's website (postnord). Since they're the ones intercepting and handling all usps mail. All other services are just web-scrapers or connected systems re-posting the same info. Besides... not sure I even have a usps or "aftership" client account - certainly never set one up. Don't want to, tbh - already way too many passwords all over to remember.


There's no need to set up an account with aftership. The functionality is already built into my website.

The only challenge is that I'm working with two different systems - the warehouse sends out their own email, which just has a link to the tracking on the USPS website. But the better link to use is the one for aftership, which is built into my website, but the warehouse doesn't pull into their emails.

So, the only way to get it is to log into your account on the website.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> You should really think before you write these things publicly. Being a lumahloic, you just don't give me any choice.
> I read through the whole pre-order thread on the Borealis forum, and the new bracelet seem to be available very soon. Probably even before the funding is available
> 
> Since we are already off-topic (Janis brands), is it only the Squalematic you are interested in? I predict with very high probability to own the 50 atmos (matt/blasted) at some point. Since we seem to have some of the same preferences, I would be interested to know we you don't consider it an alternative to the Squalematic.
> ...


Whatevs.

I can't say I know him well, but I've traded a few messages with Carlos from Prometheus/Borealis, and he seems like a good bloke. Everything I've heard and seen about his watches - including my firsthand experience seeing some in the metal - suggests they're good value, good quality, etc.

I know he used the new X1 Superluminova on the Cascais, and I hear it's quite a step up in lume brightness and longevity. I'd hope so, since that's what Tritec says about it in their product literature, which led to our decision to use it on the DevilRay.

Just the same, it's not like all other lume is lame. I think we've done a good job when it comes to lume on all models to this point, save for the Riccardo, but lume wasn't really one of the selling features on that one.

As for Squale, none of them have yet float my boat, but to each his own.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

docvail said:


> ...the new X1 Superluminova...quite a step up in lume brightness and longevity...which led to our decision to use it on the DevilRay.
> 
> Just the same, it's not like all other lume is lame.


Doc's not afraid of full lume dials, either (Phantom, Santa Cruz & Santa Fe).

In just a few short years we've gone from $h!+ lume to HOLY $H!+ LUME.

...defined as any watch that you have to keep in the bottom drawer of your watch case because it will keep you up at night if it's in the top tray shining through the glass.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

azsuprasm said:


> Doc's not afraid of full lume dials, either (Phantom, Santa Cruz & Santa Fe).
> 
> In just a few short years we've gone from $h!+ lume to HOLY $H!+ LUME.
> 
> ...defined as any watch that you have to keep in the bottom drawer of your watch case because it will keep you up at night if it's in the top tray shining through the glass.


*Santa Cruz not a full-lume dial.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> *Santa Cruz not a full-lume dial.


But one of the Antilles is. So, there's still three...


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> But one of the Antilles is. So, there's still three...


uh...yeah, what he said! (Thx, dmj)


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> There's no need to set up an account with aftership. The functionality is already built into my website.
> 
> The only challenge is that I'm working with two different systems - the warehouse sends out their own email, which just has a link to the tracking on the USPS website. But the better link to use is the one for aftership, which is built into my website, but the warehouse doesn't pull into their emails.
> 
> So, the only way to get it is to log into your account on the website.


Ah, I see. You meant the account on your website. That's not so bad ^^. looking at it now, yeah, looks like aftership is an aggregator of local delivery systems' information (and a decent one at that).

But yeah, I would normally get the tracking nr. from the email and use it in usps (origin) and postnord (local) post websites. Going through your store/site takes a lot of steps (login, account, orders, select order details) - takes a long time, not particularly convenient esp. when on mobile phone or work computer where private passwords aren't saved.

Looks like the inquiry I sent to postnord yesterday regarding the shipment has had results - customs clearance (again) yesterday evening and started moving towards here this morning.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

aicolainen said:


> You should really think before you write these things publicly. Being a lumahloic, you just don't give me any choice.
> 
> Since we are already off-topic (Janis brands), is it only the Squalematic you are interested in? I predict with very high probability to own the 50 atmos (matt/blasted) at some point. Since we seem to have some of the same preferences, I would be interested to know we you don't consider it an alternative to the Squalematic.


The Cascais is the ultimate lumaholic watch. The BGW9 version is very good, but the C3 X1 lume takes the cake.









I considered the polished 1521 before I bought the Nacken Modern Blue. I didn't want the bead blasted version because the dial is matte, and that wasn't really the type of look I wanted for that "fun summer day watch" role. My SKX is bead blasted, and it goes great with the Yobokies fixed bezel and so dark it's almost black green SARB059 dial. The bead blast on that watch gives it a great military style look.

I don't really like all polished cases though, so that's one knock on the 1521. The 1521 also doesn't have applied indices - another knock, and the bezel insert is painted aluminum and a bit bland - another knock. Lastly, it's just too bulky. It's not any bigger in terms of diameter or lug to lug than the Cascais is, but it's significantly taller at 14mm (misreported on some watch blogs as 13mm). That's 2.5mm taller than the Nacken, and around 1.5mm taller than my Zodiac and the Cascais. It's a big boy, and it would be to bulky looking on my very small wrists. The Squalematic is even bigger and bulkier, and so there's just no way I could ever wear it. I know it has a very similar all polished case as the 1521, but that gorgeous dial (with applied indices) and stunning blue/white bezel more than makes up for it. The Squalematic makes me think of this. The 1521 is nice, but I don't get that same feeling from it.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> The Cascais is the ultimate lumaholic watch. The BGW9 version is very good, but the C3 X1 lume takes the cake.
> 
> View attachment 12449705


Agreed. I plan to get the black dial so I can enjoy that C3 X1. Thats not a problem at all. I like black dials, and I seem to have some blue dials lined up for the future anyways. 
Do you know if Borealis usually do additional production runs when a model is sold out, or are they typically a one off? Just trying to figure out where this investment belongs on my priority list.



Davekaye90 said:


> I considered the polished 1521 before I bought the Nacken Modern Blue. I didn't want the bead blasted version because the dial is matte, and that wasn't really the type of look I wanted for that "fun summer day watch" role. My SKX is bead blasted, and it goes great with the Yobokies fixed bezel and so dark it's almost black green SARB059 dial. The bead blast on that watch gives it a great military style look.
> 
> I don't really like all polished cases though, so that's one knock on the 1521. The 1521 also doesn't have applied indices - another knock, and the bezel insert is painted aluminum and a bit bland - another knock. Lastly, it's just too bulky. It's not any bigger in terms of diameter or lug to lug than the Cascais is, but it's significantly taller at 14mm (misreported on some watch blogs as 13mm). That's 2.5mm taller than the Nacken, and around 1.5mm taller than my Zodiac and the Cascais. It's a big boy, and it would be to bulky looking on my very small wrists. The Squalematic is even bigger and bulkier, and so there's just no way I could ever wear it. I know it has a very similar all polished case as the 1521, but that gorgeous dial (with applied indices) and stunning blue/white bezel more than makes up for it. The Squalematic makes me think of this. The 1521 is nice, but I don't get that same feeling from it.


OK. I get it now. I actually prefer understated designs, so the 1521 appeals more to me than the Squalematic, but I have to agree, objectively, the Squalematic is the most beautiful design of the two. Just not something I see myself wearing.

And, you really point out a big problem in watch buying. It's very hard to estimate how a watch will fit on your hand just by reading the spec, and in most cases the only way to try one on is to buy it. One mm doesn't sound like much, but it could make all the difference...



Davekaye90 said:


> View attachment 12449709
> 
> 
> View attachment 12449713


Nice pictures! Anyone owning that boat should be required to have a Squalematic


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Well, my delivery has cleared UK customs - yay!  Decided to get ahead of the game based on the tracking number and try to speed up delivery without waiting for them to post me an invoice number...

but sadly, when I tried to pay the Customs charge with Parcel Force, I was told "That's fine, but I can't take any payments at this pc, but I'll get the right people to call you back". This was 20 mins ago, no callback received, and their lines are now closed...how very typical :-(

So another go at giving them money tomorrow despite their clear reluctance to take it, and with luck, they may get around to delivering my lovely new NTHs on Friday. I shall keep myself occupied till them by mumbling 'good things come to those who wait' repeatedly and browsing this thread for anticipatory pictures...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Capucho restroom pic starring the Spectre Fireball Orange










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

My custom charges have been raised but no indication of delivery to my local depot. I'll call when I know that bit.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Well, I also picked up a MWW Blobfish on a bit of an impulse, and it seems thats also gone astray on the tracking info - apparently likely to be sat at my local Post Office, they just haven't bothered to inform me that its there & I need to pay customs charges to get it. Since I got into watches that's 5 for 5 that Parcel Force or Royal Mail have made some sort of mess of when there's import duty due - in the UK, anything without customs they are fine with, they just don't seem to deal with any item requiring a payment very well. . 

Not either Chris or Doug's fault in any way at all, and I know I'll be delighted when I've got the watches...but I'm at the point where I would *love* to see an option to ship to the UK via DHL or another really good shipper - heck, I'd pay a bit extra for it.. the speed, lack of stress and knowing you'll not have a pain in the backside somewhere down the line dealing with Parcel Force or Royal Mail would be worth it to me. 

Still, I'll race ya - lets see who can get their NTH out of Parcel Force and onto their wrist first out of us UK buyers here


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

aicolainen said:


> Agreed. I plan to get the black dial so I can enjoy that C3 X1. Thats not a problem at all. I like black dials, and I seem to have some blue dials lined up for the future anyways.
> Do you know if Borealis usually do additional production runs when a model is sold out, or are they typically a one off? Just trying to figure out where this investment belongs on my priority list.
> 
> OK. I get it now. I actually prefer understated designs, so the 1521 appeals more to me than the Squalematic, but I have to agree, objectively, the Squalematic is the most beautiful design of the two. Just not something I see myself wearing.
> ...


No idea, you'd have to ask Borealis. I can tell you that the Cascais isn't especially rare on the used market, that's how I got mine because the black date version is sold out, so it's the only way to get one. This is a very different situation than say Aevig watches, of which I saw I think two posted for sale this year. Used they hold 80-85% of their value, which is pretty damn good. That's another great thing about micro brands - value retention. You'll never see anything close to that if you buy a big brand name watch through an AD, other than maybe some Rolex models.

Gotcha. Yeah the "ocean blasted" 1521 is a lot more reserved than the Squalematic. If I could wear it, it would certainly never be any kind of a daily driver, much too flashy for that. It would just be for those perfect summer days. Sadly, no one else does a dial like that. I looked, believe me. The Samurai Blue Lagoon is close, but I don't really love the Sam case, and it's too big, and it's 21.6K BPH. The Gerlach Otago is also close, but that watch is... not pretty.

Again Doc, a Modern Blue with a dial like Squale's.... all the money. I'd pay all the money. Just sayin'


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> No idea, you'd have to ask Borealis. I can tell you that the Cascais isn't especially rare on the used market, that's how I got mine because the black date version is sold out, so it's the only way to get one. This is a very different situation than say Aevig watches, of which I saw I think two posted for sale this year. Used they hold 80-85% of their value, which is pretty damn good. That's another great thing about micro brands - value retention. You'll never see anything close to that if you buy a big brand name watch through an AD, other than maybe some Rolex models.
> 
> Gotcha. Yeah the "ocean blasted" 1521 is a lot more reserved than the Squalematic. If I could wear it, it would certainly never be any kind of a daily driver, much too flashy for that. It would just be for those perfect summer days. Sadly, no one else does a dial like that. I looked, believe me. The Samurai Blue Lagoon is close, but I don't really love the Sam case, and it's too big, and it's 21.6K BPH. The Gerlach Otago is also close, but that watch is... not pretty.
> 
> Again Doc, a Modern Blue with a dial like Squale's.... all the money. I'd pay all the money. Just sayin'


Hey, man, some of us spent AGES fighting to get the effin' dog off the dial. Now you want to put that dreadful fish on the NTH dial instead of that gorgeous stylized logo? Oy.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

hwa said:


> Hey, man, some of us spent AGES fighting to get the effin' dog off the dial. Now you want to put that dreadful fish on the NTH dial instead of that gorgeous stylized logo? Oy.


I bought 3 L&H based partly on the dog.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

hwa said:


> Hey, man, some of us spent AGES fighting to get the effin' dog off the dial. Now you want to put that dreadful fish on the NTH dial instead of that gorgeous stylized logo? Oy.


The NTH ambigram is awesome don't mess with it one bit


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

applejosh said:


> I bought 3 L&H based partly on the dog.


I own every L&H offering because of the dog....


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

hwa said:


> Hey, man, some of us spent AGES fighting to get the effin' dog off the dial. Now you want to put that dreadful fish on the NTH dial instead of that gorgeous stylized logo? Oy.


Yeah that's what I meant. Not Squale's stunning sky blue sunburst dial that no one else on the market that I'm aware of has done anything quite like, other than maybe that hideous Gerlach. Nope, I want the Squale shark on it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Once you've seen the Omega AT Skyfall, there's no unseeing it. Sorry, Squale. It's a race for second place.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

hwa said:


> Once you've seen the Omega AT Skyfall, there's no unseeing it. Sorry, Squale. It's a race for second place.
> 
> View attachment 12451897


There's no doubt about that...


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> Whether or not I'll offer a model with or without a date, or as a no-date only, really depends on the other variations being made, where the date window will be located, whether or not I think the date wheel color will ruin the design based on where the window is, etc.
> 
> So, for example, let's say we're making 300 NTH Subs, and one or more versions would be absolutely ruined by putting the date at 3, like the Scorpene or Oberon, or any version with vintage lume. The Oberon and Scorpene need to be 3-6-9-12, not *date*-6-9-12.
> 
> For those, the date at 3 is a non-starter.


Confused... my order for the Oberon says "date window" and the above seems to be saying that you feel that a date window on the Oberon would ruin that design. If you, the designer, didn't think it should have a date window but offer one to be nice, I wish that you'd have said so on the description page. I then would have read your preference and then decided. As it was, I just figured I'd get a date window. I didn't even THINK of the 3-6-9-12 being upset... just didn't even think about it even though clearly now I see that it would.

If you offer options that you really would prefer people didn't select, I for one would prefer knowing your feelings / thoughts about that before making my decision.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Pakz said:


> Yeah, I'm a bit surprised at the attacks against the nh35 and Miyota 9015. I mean from an horological perspective the second one is really on par if not better than the 2824-2 and the first one is an absolute workhorse that can survive almost anything. Still a similar category not something like the 8L35 or the 3135 that are a definite step above.
> Not that you can't find a nh35 that keeps better time than a 6r15 or a 8L35... In fact most of my nh35 powered watches keep better time than my MM300 or my Speedmaster. And all of my 9015 powered watches are superb time keepers.
> The only thing that can be said in bad regarding the lower/mid grade Seiko or Miyota movements is that their not as easy to regulate as a base ETA, lacking the dedicated screw...


A slight tangential question please...

With all the talk about the NH35 here, is there a short explanation of why (as with Doug's 62Mas) so many people really wanted to spend $100 more for the NH15 over the NH35? Is there really that much difference? Is it that "dedicated screw"?


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

hwa said:


> Once you've seen the Omega AT Skyfall, there's no unseeing it.


Ahhh a George Daniels co-axial movement... one of theses days I just may try to sell quite a few watches to get one. I just love his design.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

hwa said:


> Once you've seen the Omega AT Skyfall, there's no unseeing it. Sorry, Squale. It's a race for second place.


Eh. It's fine. Not really a fan of the numbers as part of the minute track. I also don't get what the big deal is compared to something like a Seiko SDGM007.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Eh. It's fine. Not really a fan of the numbers as part of the minute track. I also don't get what the big deal is compared to something like a Seiko SDGM007.
> 
> View attachment 12452189


Nice looking, but the big deal is the low-beat movement for a high price, a dealbreaker IMHO.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> Nice looking, but the big deal is the low-beat movement for a high price, a dealbreaker IMHO.


It is for me, but not everyone seems to think so. H. Moser's HMC 200 automatic movement is 21.6K BPH (with 72+ hours of power reserve if you care about that sort of thing) and the Pioneer 3-hander is $12,000. That case though.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> Capucho restroom pic starring the Spectre Fireball Orange
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're showing two hands so doesn't count as a Capucho restroom piccy.

Ric


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

fearlessleader said:


> A slight tangential question please...
> 
> With all the talk about the NH35 here, is there a short explanation of why (as with Doug's 62Mas) so many people really wanted to spend $100 more for the NH15 over the NH35? Is there really that much difference? Is it that "dedicated screw"?


The spring material and anti-shock devices are quite a bit improved plus a few other things and a slightly different design, and the perceivable result of that is that the power reserve is about 10 hours longer if memory serve and stability is better, allowing for a stated accuracy range that is tighter.
Moreover, the added quality of the materials makes the movement generally speaking be of a higher "overall horological quality" : this time it really does compare (despite the beat frequency difference) with the lower end ETAs such as the base 2824-2...


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

fearlessleader said:


> Confused... my order for the Oberon says "date window" and the above seems to be saying that you feel that a date window on the Oberon would ruin that design. If you, the designer, didn't think it should have a date window but offer one to be nice, I wish that you'd have said so on the description page. I then would have read your preference and then decided. As it was, I just figured I'd get a date window. I didn't even THINK of the 3-6-9-12 being upset... just didn't even think about it even though clearly now I see that it would.
> 
> If you offer options that you really would prefer people didn't select, I for one would prefer knowing your feelings / thoughts about that before making my decision.


He said date at 3:00 window. I'm pretty sure none of the subs have a date at 3:00. He was speaking hypothetically why date windows at 3:00 would not work.

And did you look at the pictures of the watch before ordering? Really, it comes down to what you like.


----------



## smatrixt (Aug 7, 2014)

Really disappointed in my Amphion Gilt, this is unacceptable!

The -0.1 period had a day on the winder.

Now I'm mad that I didn't take the time to zero it out exactly when I set it , lol


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fearlessleader said:


> Confused... my order for the Oberon says "date window" and the above seems to be saying that you feel that a date window on the Oberon would ruin that design. If you, the designer, didn't think it should have a date window but offer one to be nice, I wish that you'd have said so on the description page. I then would have read your preference and then decided. As it was, I just figured I'd get a date window. I didn't even THINK of the 3-6-9-12 being upset... just didn't even think about it even though clearly now I see that it would.
> 
> If you offer options that you really would prefer people didn't select, I for one would prefer knowing your feelings / thoughts about that before making my decision.





applejosh said:


> _*He said date at 3:00 window. I'm pretty sure none of the subs have a date at 3:00. He was speaking hypothetically why date windows at 3:00 would not work.*_
> 
> _And did you look at the pictures of the watch before ordering? Really, it comes down to what you like._


^^^This. So much this. All of this.


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

I glanced down and saw an opportunity for a natural 10:10 shot with mint.









Too bad my POS phone focused on my hand rather than the watch. Had to hurry!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Got the amphion vb  All's fine.

Outer box was really f-ed up, crunched and twisted. Clearly had been opened and re-packaged (e.g. the shipping label - the one with address, customs form and all) had been clearly torn off and re-glued. I'm guessing, either customs inspection decided to dig around in the box, or the box had jammed some automatic mechanisms and got crunched as result. Either would explain the delays, too.

Luckily the white-cardboard nth box was fine (but also really banged up corners, it had clearly been tossing around in the big box), and didn't look like the sleeve had been taken out/touched. So the watch itself (and anything in the pleather case) was 100% a-ok. 

Glad to see that this Amphion Sub is just as good as I remember the santa cruz being. Great case, very nice bezel and crown feel (again.. crown is at least as good as I remember on oris 65). And that bubble-dial, WOW. Love it.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Btw, hey doc, on your 'coming son' page:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Btw, hey doc, on your 'coming son' page:
> 
> View attachment 12453347


Thanks for the heads-up. Just fixed it.


----------



## jaeva (Dec 4, 2015)

Wore my new Barracuda for the first time today...


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

checked my order status for the sapphire blue orthos for the 3rd time today. I am not well suited to this patience thing. Thankfully it says SHIPPED!


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

My Barracuda appears to have arrived at my delivery depot that is between my home and office so I'll call them on the way to work and see if I can collect. I've not had the customs demand but hopefully it'll be on the computer.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

applejosh said:


> And did you look at the pictures of the watch before ordering? Really, it comes down to what you like.


Of COURSE it does come down to what I do or don't like. But, as with many artists with whom I've dealt, it has proven very helpful to a mere mortal to know what the artist intended. It might not change my view, but sometimes just knowing what the artist intended has made me view things differently. That's all I'm saying...

Doc's an artist and we consumers should (I think) know a wee bit more of what he intended. Now, perhaps if he doesn't think that a date window would look "right" he just won't offer it... And that's one heck of a statement by the artist.


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

£79.65 duty to pay but not ready to collect yet.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

fearlessleader said:


> Of COURSE it does come down to what I do or don't like. But, as with many artists with whom I've dealt, it has proven very helpful to a mere mortal to know what the artist intended. It might not change my view, but sometimes just knowing what the artist intended has made me view things differently. That's all I'm saying...
> 
> Doc's an artist and we consumers should (I think) know a wee bit more of what he intended. Now, perhaps if he doesn't think that a date window would look "right" he just won't offer it... And that's one heck of a statement by the artist.


If there's one thing about doc, I think he tell us TOO MUCH of what goes into the whole process...


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

fearlessleader said:


> Of COURSE it does come down to what I do or don't like. But, as with many artists with whom I've dealt, it has proven very helpful to a mere mortal to know what the artist intended. It might not change my view, but sometimes just knowing what the artist intended has made me view things differently. That's all I'm saying...
> 
> Doc's an artist and we consumers should (I think) know a wee bit more of what he intended. Now, perhaps if he doesn't think that a date window would look "right" he just won't offer it... And that's one heck of a statement by the artist.


I think doc does express his thoughts. A lot. If you wanted to know about why the date was out in a particular place, I would think it's the consumer's responsibility to ask those questions. I also think it's our responsibility to carefully read what he wrote if it's something we are concerned with. I thought doc did a good job of explaining why 3:00 position wouldn't work, but the quote snippet you cited was the example of why he didn't do something a certain way and you sounded a little accusatory of why he put a date where he did. Made me think that you didn't see the pictures of the watch with the position of where the date windows was on these models.

Also, I now have an image in my head of doc doing a video like Jony Ive explaining aluminum production. Doc, how about it?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Why do i fear doc is busy writing yet another wall of text in reply to yet more bellyaching about date options? Please, chris, let it go unanswered 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Why do i fear doc is busy writing yet another wall of text in reply to yet more bellyaching about date options? Please, chris, let it go unanswered
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Edit - oops, this was supposed to be in reply to Proco2020's post last page

Paid about the same on each watch - I went to the depot and collected it rather than wait till Tuesday for them to deliver...but I have just got home & opened the package to find this wonderful sight









There may be an unwrapping and bracelet sizing frenzy commencing very shortly 

Best of luck - I hope you can get hold of your soon!


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

Wearing my Baracuda, as picked it up and took it to Timpsons to resize (he struggled) at lunch.

First impressions are the dial looks fab, bezel not as bright expected from renders, great size ( took CW C60 off to put NTH on and that felt and looks massive).

Very envious of your Dark Gilt, enjoy.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

NTH tropics Azores for the tropical storm









Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Proco2020 said:


> Wearing my Baracuda, as picked it up and took it to Timpsons to resize (he struggled) at lunch.
> 
> First impressions are the dial looks fab, *bezel not as bright expected from renders*, great size ( took CW C60 off to put NTH on and that felt and looks massive).
> 
> Very envious of your Dark Gilt, enjoy.


I may regret asking, but here goes...

Is that disappointing to you?

I freely admit that it was difficult deciding which photos of the Barracuda to use, because that bezel changes colors so much. It truly does go from a light purplish-mauve to a rich burgundy-brown depending on the light, but I thought the pics where it looks darker would be the best to use, as those are the ones where it most closely matches the dial color.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Anyone else having problems posting pics in Tapatalk? I'm getting a message telling me I need to create an account, but obviously I'm already logged into my account if I can post this.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Anyone else having problems posting pics in Tapatalk? I'm getting a message telling me I need to create an account, but obviously I'm already logged into my account if I can post this.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Nope, but are you on the beta?









Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## CantFightJose (Dec 29, 2016)

Hey Doc, quick question for you (sorry if it's a dumb one). Once a watch sells out, how likely, or unlikely, are you to do a 2nd run of it? The demand is apparent, but I understand if you'd rather create something new instead of revisiting the "back catalog".

The DevilRay looks fantastic, btw.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

ON the Barracuda bezel posts, having just unwrapped mine, I really like it. The bezel is lighter under some angles of view, but it does change so much depending on the amount of light and how it hits it. I think it complements the lovely glint and change of hue you get off the dial as you change the angles you see it from.

That dial is what really holds the attention, at least it is for me. That's a really deep, rich tone that sets off the gilt markers and hands perfectly - I am not sure any static photo I have seen quite does justice to what it looks like in the metal.

Now brace yourselves, I'm about to attempt resizing the bracelet. That went easily enough on my Nacken Vintage Blue though, so I'm not anticipating too much in the way of tears or cursing...

..then on to decide a strap for the Dark Gilt...just to mix things up a bit


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CantFightJose said:


> Hey Doc, quick question for you (sorry if it's a dumb one). Once a watch sells out, how likely, or unlikely, are you to do a 2nd run of it? The demand is apparent, but I understand if you'd rather create something new instead of revisiting the "back catalog".
> 
> The DevilRay looks fantastic, btw.


Let me put it this way...I've yet to make the same exact thing twice.

I may never produce anything more than once, at least not in exactly the same way.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> Nope, but are you on the beta?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dunno.

What I do know is Tapatalk and my new phone can split a big bowl of deep fried monkey turds.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Well, resizing took all of 2 minutes - gotta love a screw link bracelet 

I can't seem to take a good wrist shot on my phone, so that'll have to wait, but for now here's a pic of the watch.









Not a great pic but sorta illustrates what's been said about the dial / bezel hue, just tilt it so the light catches differently and it looks very different..and dial shifts along the spectrum from an almost velvet burgundy at the oblique to glossy root beer at a more normal viewing angle.

Dammit, I wish I had the photographic talent to capture the look properly, or a short 'on the wrist' video out in natural light would do it better justice. Maybe a project for the weekend.. if I get sufficient amount of clear skies and bright sunlight to do it properly (never a guarantee here..)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Welp, back on my laptop, so I can post those pics now...


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

..and a bonus, slightly better, Amphion Dark Gilt pic. I had this NATO just sitting my in my strap box, and I think it works beautifully









Was torn between these 2 when I initially ordered, but so, so glad a stroke of luck meant I could add the Amphion to my order before pre-orders finished

Dammit - I adore them both so much its hard to choose what gets worn tomorrow now - it'd be weird to wear one on each wrist for the next few days wouldn't it?


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)




----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Welp, back on my laptop, so I can post those pics now...
> 
> View attachment 12455941


I dont know about that blue...just kidding. Seriously though, love the bezel. Thats some great stuff. Can I go ahead and pre-pre-order?


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

I'm digging the blue and silver...love the black but i have so many black watches...

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Welp, back on my laptop, so I can post those pics now...
> 
> View attachment 12455941
> View attachment 12455943
> ...


........and the torment continues.... you're twistin' my melon man, you're twistin' my melon...........


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Looks great so far. Can't wait :-!


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> I may regret asking, but here goes...
> 
> Is that disappointing to you?
> 
> I freely admit that it was difficult deciding which photos of the Barracuda to use, because that bezel changes colors so much. It truly does go from a light purplish-mauve to a rich burgundy-brown depending on the light, but I thought the pics where it looks darker would be the best to use, as those are the ones where it most closely matches the dial color.


Truethfully? Yes I was on initially opening the box as I was expecting a much darker bezel insert. I'm a massive fan of the Rolex Rootbeer GMT and I was hoping for something as dark as that towards the burgundy.

After several hours on my wrist I have grown to appreciate the colours and how it changes in the light (in the evening light now it looks awesome) and I think it actually looks like it's faded with a little patina which is a positive in my eyes. I'm not suffering buyers remorse, I'm a sucker for snowflake hands and gilt. It's staying in the collection.

I did fight with myself when ordering and almost ordered the dark gilt as that ticks so many boxes. Gilt, applied indices, sword hands that don't have in my watch box, red triangle. Why did the Barracuda win in the tussle in my wallet? The fully marked insert, I'm just not a fan don't know why, it just looks too busy to my eyes and the fact it would be another black dialled diver.

I tonight picked my wife up from hospital after she'd had a short stay. She never noticed I was wearing another new watch, but she did notice I was playing with it and looking at it constantly (she was wearing my Seagull 1963 and listening to it tick, weirdo!!!) I'd take that as a positive.

So yes I'm happy and will enjoy the watch it gives me something I'm missing in my watch box.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I freely admit that it was difficult deciding which photos of the Barracuda to use, because that bezel changes colors so much. It truly does go from a light purplish-mauve to a rich burgundy-brown depending on the light, but I thought the pics where it looks darker would be the best to use, as those are the ones where it most closely matches the dial color.


The modern blue is the same way. The Bezel is sometimes very light, other times more of a medium blue, and the dial seems to change from navy blue to "blue steel" to just about matching the bezel under the right lighting conditions. This did not make finding a rubber strap easy! You were right by the way, the first strap I ordered was much too light. I ended up with a kind of "ocean blue" strap that I feel matches the watch extremely well under most lighting conditions.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> The modern blue is the same way. The Bezel is sometimes very light, other times more of a medium blue, and the dial seems to change from navy blue to "blue steel" to just about matching the bezel under the right lighting conditions. This did not make finding a rubber strap easy! You were right by the way, the first strap I ordered was much too light. I ended up with a kind of "ocean blue" strap that I feel matches the watch extremely well under most lighting conditions.
> 
> View attachment 12456615


Which watch band is that? Source, please? I tried a couple straps I had laying around, none of which wowed me. It does just look darn good on bracelet, though.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Proco2020 said:


> Truethfully? Yes I was on initially opening the box as I was expecting a much darker bezel insert. I'm a massive fan of the Rolex Rootbeer GMT and I was hoping for something as dark as that towards the burgundy.
> 
> After several hours on my wrist I have grown to appreciate the colours and how it changes in the light (in the evening light now it looks awesome) and I think it actually looks like it's faded with a little patina which is a positive in my eyes. I'm not suffering buyers remorse, I'm a sucker for snowflake hands and gilt. It's staying in the collection.
> 
> ...


Hope all is well with your better half.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I ended up with a kind of "ocean blue" strap that I feel matches the watch extremely well under most lighting conditions.


Pics or it didn't happen.


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

It will be given time. She's home now which is the important thing. Will I ever get my 1963 back is the most important question....


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

applejosh said:


> Which watch band is that? Source, please? I tried a couple straps I had laying around, none of which wowed me. It does just look darn good on bracelet, though.


United Watchbands Silicone QR strap in "Light Blue." $13 from Amazon. They also have a very light "sky blue" strap that would probably match the Devilray well, and a darker Navy Blue. I might try the latter with my Zodiac, the Barton strap I have for that is almost more purple than blue, and doesn't match all that well. I'm not a bracelet guy, so it'll be on this strap until my Chris Ward leather strap for it arrives from the UK. It does wear very well on this strap though, I wore it out hiking yesterday, and it's fantastic to be able to come home, pop off the straps and scrub all of the sunscreen off of them and the caseback with a bit of soap and water before putting it back on.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Pics or it didn't happen.


Quick 'n dirty phone shot. Sorry about the awful white balance, but it gives you an idea, at least.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> United Watchbands Silicone QR strap in "Light Blue." $13 from Amazon.


Thanks!


----------



## pop4 (Jul 10, 2015)




----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> Under the heading of, "well, that beats a stick in the eye..."
> 
> Last week, out of nowhere, I got an email from one of the managers at my old warehouse. It seems they stumbled upon a box containing 10 of the watches we'd previously counted as stolen (or just otherwise lost somehow - I was pretty skeptical they could lose an entire box of a single SKU to theft).
> 
> ...


Great stuff - Just placed my order for the Blue Orthos. Cheers Doc |>

I've been keeping an eye out for a used one for a while, so when these became available again - I just had to jump on it.

Still hope to get on board with the DevilRay - not sure on the Turquoise or Orange yet. I'm hoping the pics of the prototypes will help with my decision.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

applejosh said:


> I think doc does express his thoughts. A lot. If you wanted to know about why the date was out in a particular place, I would think it's the consumer's responsibility to ask those questions....


No, No. You totally misunderstood what I meant.

I meant --- if Doc does offer the date as an option, but he feels that the date really shouldn't be there... THEN I'd like to know it.

If the date's not there at all, that's clearly his design choice and I am totally fine with his choice! And his choice is quite clear.

I didn't think that there were watches on which he offered a date BUT he felt that the date shouldn't be there... however, it seemed like that's what he said. And that's what I was talking about. Have there been any watches which offered a date even though Doc didn't think it should be there? If not, then... "Never mind".


----------



## bena87 (Mar 9, 2010)

Loving this watch!! Not loving the fact it is pretty difficult to get pics of, especially if you are like me and have no talent for photography.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

I picked up my Barracuda from the post office on Saturday and absolutely love it. The dial is simply stunning, and evokes images of rich fortified wine, tallships, rum and raisin chocolates, and Cuban cigars.
Congrats to Chris for pulling it off!
Would I be right in thinking the Barracuda is one of your most successful (I.e. best selling) watches yet Chris?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cosmodromedary said:


> I picked up my Barracuda from the post office on Saturday and absolutely love it. The dial is simply stunning, and evokes images of rich fortified wine, tallships, rum and raisin chocolates, and Cuban cigars.
> Congrats to Chris for pulling it off!
> Would I be right in thinking the Barracuda is one of your most successful (I.e. best selling) watches yet Chris?


You would not be right, I'm afraid, but bear in mind that it's one of 13 NTH Subs variations we've produced so far, and the Subs are just one of 8 or 9 models (depending on how you count). There's some stiff competition in there.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm - I wonder which Sub model (or really, variation..) is the most successful. And how would one even tell? Most units sold is not quite accurate, since these weren't made in the same numbers... Speed of sales? Demand for re-issues? ... least aftermarket resales? Not quite sure which, if any, of these metrics would even lead to determining the most successful Sub...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm - I wonder which Sub model (or really, variation..) is the most successful. And how would one even tell? Most units sold is not quite accurate, since these weren't made in the same numbers... Speed of sales? Demand for re-issues? ... least aftermarket resales? Not quite sure which, if any, of these metrics would even lead to determining the most successful Sub...


Indeed.

In terms of production/sales numbers, combined with the number of people who asked if I'd make more, the Nacken Modern Black was the most "successful" of the NTH Subs, even if it wasn't the first to sell out.

Since we based production numbers on pre-order sales, which would seem to be about as pure an indication of demand as we're likely to get, that alone is a good indicator, but when you layer in the speed of sales, not just at first, but over time, especially as a model gets long in the tooth, the perspective changes.

I think what constitutes a "success" is debatable. The Riccardo sold well, but we only made 250, and given the defect rate, it's hard for me to consider it a "success".

The Commander 300 is up there, with 258 made, and sold rather quickly. But of course, there were two colors, 158 black, and 100 blue. Taken individually, the blue isn't any more successful than the Nacken Modern Black, and the black C300 isn't more successful than the Blue/Orange Orthos. But then again, the Blue/Orange Orthos is two years old, whereas the Commander sold out pretty quickly.

Not everything we make is going to sell as well as everything else. I've accepted that some models are going to be less "successful", but I see them as being part of having a well-developed product range, and sometimes I make concessions for what I personally think is "worth" doing, even if I know going in that something likely won't sell as well.

I wasn't sure how well the Barracuda would sell, but I wanted to make it regardless, at least in part out of wanting to put my own "root beer" Sub into the world, as a demonstration of my vision. If we never make any more, that's fine with me. Now that it's out there, I can move onto something else without thinking any more about it.

I'll also avoid doing things I know would sell very well, if I don't think it aligns well with my business goals. People want me to make a more "entry-level" model, or another Riccardo. Those could sell very well, but they don't get my business any closer to where I want to take it.


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

Doc - would you consider making the subs in a slightly bigger size?

I'm genuinely interested and not trying to wind you up if this question has been asked before (which I'd imagine it has, but I couldn't find it)


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I have no affiliation with Doc but I would like to answer for him.

 No!



watchuck said:


> Doc - would you consider making the subs in a slightly bigger size?
> 
> I'm genuinely interested and not trying to wind you up if this question has been asked before (which I'd imagine it has, but I couldn't find it)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchuck said:


> Doc - would you consider making the subs in a slightly bigger size?
> 
> I'm genuinely interested and not trying to wind you up if this question has been asked before (which I'd imagine it has, but I couldn't find it)


It has been asked before. It doesn't wind me up.

I've nothing against making a bigger watch - the DevilRay is 43mm, but when I think about making a bigger sub, I ask why.

Steinhart makes 42mm subs. Armida makes a 42mm sub with the A2. Ancon makes a 41.5mm and a 43.5mm sub. Hager makes the Commando Pro in 42mm. Aramar makes a 42mm sub. Borealis makes the 42mm BullShark, and launched their brand with a couple 42mm Tudor sub homages. Kemmner makes 42mm subs. I'm sure there are many more from 41mm to 44mm, and probably larger.

Why would I bother?

Yes, yes, I know, "But Doc, we like YOUR take on the Subs".

Sorry, that's not enough for me. Everyone who asks me to make anything has some degree of "we want YOUR take on it" embedded in the request, but that's not how I do new model development.

It took YEARS for the Fanmen to convince me to make ANY Sub homage at all, and to get there, I forced them to tell me what was missing in the existing offerings. I never saw the point in making a sub homage, because there are already so damned many of them.

"39mm/40mm case, thinner, getting the details right, quality, availability, pricing..."

Making it smaller was the first thing on the list. Making it thinner was the second.

The idea behind the Subs was to offer people something that was a faithful homage to the vintage Rolex and Tudor military Subs, and that had the same level of attention to detail as MKII (and the same sort of "love" that went into the Kiger MilSubs), but to make them more affordable and more readily available, and put our own little bit of spin on them.

We did that.

I'm not saying I'd never make any more Subs, or that I'd never make them in a bigger size, but it's a project for another time. Right now, I've got enough projects on my plate that it's not even on my radar. I have to gauge the value of any new product idea against all other possibilities, and I tend to go for the ones I see as having the biggest potential to move the needle.

A bigger Sub just doesn't rev my engine, at least not at this moment. We'll see if it does when we get down the road a bit.


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

as promised more photos of the precious.

at this moment i am still not wearing it, have one more really good microbrand watch coming, waiting period is long, but it may arrive rather soon.
anyway i will need to keep only one of them to better invest our new apartment renovation, so don't be late to message me about it. every time i pick it up i truly resist myself to unwrap this gorgeous piece. really love its bezel, dial and tones

View attachment image1.jpg
View attachment image3.JPG












View attachment image5.jpg


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

s.z said:


> as promised more photos of the precious.
> 
> at this moment i am still not wearing it, have one more really good microbrand watch coming, waiting period is long, but it may arrive rather soon.
> anyway i will need to keep only one of them to better invest our new apartment renovation, so don't be late to message me about it. every time i pick it up i truly resist myself to unwrap this gorgeous piece. really love its bezel, dial and tones
> ...


Mk or visitor?

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

Cheers Doc, all makes sense

I appreciate your thorough response |>


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

kpjimmy said:


> Mk or visitor?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


i think i should not reveal it until i receive it, but you can find it in my personal info ))


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

s.z said:


> i think i should not reveal it until i receive it, but you can find it in my personal info ))


Oh gotcha. I have a sub and "other" as well. Both are awesome! 

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This whole "not unwrapping and wearing the watch" thing is strange to me. Are you thinking of sending it back? If you like it so much, why not unwrap it and wear it? What am I missing?

As for the "other", if it's the Halios Seaforth listed in your profile, you're not going to get my undies in a twist talking about it here. Jason Lim from Halios is a friend, and the Seaforth seems like a really nice watch. 

My undies remain un-twisted.


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

kpjimmy said:


> Oh gotcha. I have a sub and "other" as well. Both are awesome!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


you know i PMed you at instagram when was thinking which one of them to get, and then i went with both ;-) one from european reseller still needs its time, there are some quirks with shipping. by the way how do i need to insert photos to make the larger view able ?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> This whole "not unwrapping and wearing the watch" thing is strange to me. Are you thinking of sending it back? If you like it so much, why not unwrap it and wear it? What am I missing?
> 
> As for the "other", if it's the Halios Seaforth listed in your profile, you're not going to get my undies in a twist talking about it here. Jason Lim from Halios is a friend, and the Seaforth seems like a really nice watch.
> 
> My undies remain un-twisted.


I assume he'll need to decide to possibly sell one.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



s.z said:


> you know i PMed you at instagram when was thinking which one of them to get, and then i went with both ;-) one from european reseller still needs its time, there are some quirks with shipping. by the way how do i need to insert photos to make the larger view able ?


Ah I recall that. Lol

As for the images, I see them fine. I can zoom in on the phone.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

docvail said:


> This whole "not unwrapping and wearing the watch" thing is strange to me. Are you thinking of sending it back? If you like it so much, why not unwrap it and wear it? What am I missing?
> 
> As for the "other", if it's the Halios Seaforth listed in your profile, you're not going to get my undies in a twist talking about it here. Jason Lim from Halios is a friend, and the Seaforth seems like a really nice watch.
> 
> My undies remain un-twisted.


haha no i am not going to send it back. the thing is that i decided to buy them both, the seaforth is on its looong way here, after i receive it i will probably need to keep only one, so the other will hopefuly find its happy new owner. glad we can talk about this freely. 
i'd keep both , yes i appreciate my nacken vintage black , but at this moment ... just waiting


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

I'm not sure there is an advantage in leaving the watch wrapped. I have a sub that when I received it just didn't appeal to me the way I thought it would. I put it away for a while figuring I'd wait a while and see if my mind had changed. I have since offered it to a few folks who missed out. Even though my price is less than a new one when it was available and I'm eating the shipping and PayPal I get told I'm asking too much. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

hawkeye86 said:


> I'm not sure there is an advantage in leaving the watch wrapped. I have a sub that when I received it just didn't appeal to me the way I thought it would. I put it away for a while figuring I'd wait a while and see if my mind had changed. I have since offered it to a few folks who missed out. Even though my price is less than a new one when it was available and I'm eating the shipping and PayPal I get told I'm asking too much.


exactly.
But if i was on the other side, i would be happy to find one new when they are sold out. It will not change a lot for me if i wear it now not for a long time, but may change the whole feel for the one who may get it for life.

Talking Halios again because it is the same what i am talking about and happens now - i am having the best that can be imagined faithful engagement from the european reseller Stephan during very very long unexpected customs and shipping problems and other hidden moments that it changes everything. He is really fair with me since the moment i asked to reserve one and then being first again when the second batch arrived, this means too much and the watch is so good, that i can not refuse it and get the watch at the same time.

I had really good service with Janis trading also. This says it all about Jason and Chris - they are both not only good as ''designers'' , but as business owners and people first. This comes from inside them, and the watch itself or customer service is a result of it. I am glad i come through this and good people around the world.

we live in a world of people, so i am just fair to others and get the same from them

ps I think i may keep both of them if the seaforth will finally arrive . A bit strange that i found two watches that i like so much at exactly the same time. i was searching for a few months to get something for my 30th birthday that i could wear always and would not think of selling it. and then both appeared ))


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

b-)


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> This whole "not unwrapping and wearing the watch" thing is strange to me. Are you thinking of sending it back? If you like it so much, why not unwrap it and wear it? What am I missing?


I left the watches wrapped long enough to inspect it carefully (as instructed to do) and to do a somewhat quick check on the accuracy. If it was trending to be 2 min/day off, I'd like to have the option of sending it back unworn. Never had that issue with a doc product, but I respect his rules on returning items. (And I imagine if something was that far off, he'd want it back regardless so he could see what went sideways.) Generally, the watch is unwrapped/sized/proudly worn within half a day of receiving it.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I have no affiliation with Doc but I would like to answer for him.
> 
> No!


Obviously doc will do what he thinks is best for his business, but I have to say I'm a believer in the current size/proportions of the subs. I used to think that 42mm was my sweet spot (having watches from 38 to 46mm) in terms of legibility (my eyes ain't what they used to be) and feel, but after wearing a sub for the past three weeks plus, I accept I was wrong. This watch is the perfect size for my wrist, and it wears extremely well with dress shirts, etc. I currently have 2; thinking about a third (the Fe). The dimensions just work really well for me.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

applejosh said:


> Obviously doc will do what he thinks is best for his business, but I have to say I'm a believer in the current size/proportions of the subs. I used to think that 42mm was my sweet spot (having watches from 38 to 46mm) in terms of legibility (my eyes ain't what they used to be) and feel, but after wearing a sub for the past three weeks plus, I accept I was wrong. This watch is the perfect size for my wrist, and it wears extremely well with dress shirts, etc. I currently have 2; thinking about a third (the Fe). The dimensions just work really well for me.


Yeah it's not exactly difficult to get a 42mm+ homage as Doc pointed out, plus watches like the Black Bay and Pelagos are now quite beefy themselves - too big for me. The Nacken is so thin and light that I forget it's even on. I have other watches for "wrist presence."


----------



## sabarig (Jan 17, 2012)

I am hitting myself for missing out on the amphion gilt dial. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I must say, I am not sure what or where I was going with this but I am sorry. I have not been in the right frame of mind lately and am sure I was trying to be funny but......

If I offended anyone, please forgive me.



Ojibway Bob said:


> I have no affiliation with Doc but I would like to answer for him.
> 
> No!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I caved... :-x

Again o|

Now I'm just hoping Doc already implemented those fancy delivery drones so my new shiny watch gets here yesterday :-!


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> I caved... :-x
> 
> Again o|
> 
> Now I'm just hoping Doc already implemented those fancy delivery drones so my new shiny watch gets here yesterday :-!


What did you get? My blue Orthos II is set to arrive today and I am super stoked.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Gasps and giggles...I am one of the cool kids finally. Pretty sure the bracelet would fit an elephant but plant of spare links for those without puny wrists like mine. Unexpected bonus, the case is my favorite travel case to date.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

idvsego said:


> Gasps and giggles...I am one of the cool kids finally. Pretty sure the bracelet would fit an elephant but plant of spare links for those without puny wrists like mine. Unexpected bonus, the case is my favorite travel case to date.


Looks good. Glad you like it.

The frequency of people complimenting that travel case continues to amaze me. Using that instead of a clam-shell presentation box might be the single best business decision I've ever made. I chose it because it would fit in a small flat rate mailing box, which saves on shipping. That people seem to like it so much is just a bonus.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Looks good. Glad you like it.
> 
> The frequency of people complimenting that travel case continues to amaze me. Using that instead of a clam-shell presentation box might be the single best business decision I've ever made. I chose it because it would fit in a small flat rate mailing box, which saves on shipping. That people seem to like it so much is just a bonus.


I hate useless packaging. Give me a plain cardboard box or a useful travel case any day. I have similar travel cases from Borealis and Deaumar. The Borealis is nice but I dont like the bungee closing mechanism. Puts stress marks on the flap and the corners always turn up after some time. The Deaumar is better with a full zipper but is a little thicker than this because of the room it adds for an extra strap. Yours is more compact and fits the watch more snugly. If I am just taking a single watch, it will be my guy.

I had hoped taht gettign this would keep me satisfied until the D-Ray ball gets rolling but it is just making me want to get more. Stupid watches, stupid hobby...stupid rent.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I did not keep up with everything lately here, so please dont hate if it has been answered already. A simple "yes, propably Fall next year" or "no, never again" will suffice.

Are there any more subs coming out in the near future or is it over for now? Not asking a specific model or re-issue...JUST IF there will be something to be expected...

Edit: pic didn't show...









Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## ctf0015 (Feb 10, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I am beyond thrilled to say my first Nod To History will be here on Friday! NTH Scorpene which I found from another WUS member. Now it is time to play catch up on this thread! Looking forward to a solid daily and overall high quality watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I did not keep up with everything lately here, so please dont hate if it has been answered already. A simple "yes, propably Fall next year" or "no, never again" will suffice.
> 
> Are there any more subs coming out in the near future or is it over for now? Not asking a specific model or re-issue...JUST IF there will be something to be expected...


I could get hit by a bus tomorrow.

Assuming I don't, we'll likely make at least one more round of Subs, not sure when, but maybe sometime next year, maybe sooner, maybe later.

We've got some new designs worked up and under consideration. I'm not looking for more ideas, as we've already got more than we need, and I'm considering which ones to cut from the list.

I might make more of the Nacken Modern Black, as people have asked about it, though I might not, because I'd rather make too few than too many, and all other things being equal, I see more value in making something new than I see in making more of something we've already made.

I doubt I'll make more of any of the other Subs versions, as I can't recall anyone asking me about them, and even if someone did, I don't see a good business case for making more of any of them, at least not anytime in the foreseeable future.

While we're on the subject - just one Nacken Modern Blue left in stock.

Single to low-double-digit inventory on the Barracuda, Santa Cruz, and Santa Fe.

For that matter, it's the same story on all the L&H models, none of which will I be producing again, as I've got other ideas for the future.

Just sayin'...


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

leave doc alone, he has Devil Rays to make.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...we'll likely make at least one more round of Subs....
> 
> ...We've got some new designs worked up and under consideration. ...
> 
> I doubt I'll make more of any of the other Subs versions....


So i take it there are some fresh sub designs in the water...great outlook. Make it sometime spring/early summer next year, watchfund needs feeding first.

And don't ever change that logo. Now that I've seen it in blue on the SC it's even better  - really, it's genius

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Looks good. Glad you like it.
> 
> The frequency of people complimenting that travel case continues to amaze me. Using that instead of a clam-shell presentation box might be the single best business decision I've ever made. I chose it because it would fit in a small flat rate mailing box, which saves on shipping. That people seem to like it so much is just a bonus.


Love mine, too. My SKX has its dinky little clam-shell box, and my Zodiac has a pretty nice one. They both sit in my closet unused, because I have a 10-slot watch case in my bedroom where I keep all of my watches, straps, and collection of SKX mod parts. The next time I'm at the airport or I'm bringing two watches with me somewhere though, I'll actually use the NTH case. The Borealis fold-over travel case is fine, but you've definitely got them beat.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

idvsego said:


> What did you get? My blue Orthos II is set to arrive today and I am super stoked.


Mine is blue to but it ain't no Orthos b-)


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> we'll likely make at least one more round of Subs ... I might make more of the Nacken Modern Black, as people have asked about it ...


I would like to see an Amphion Modern with a Nacken bezel ...


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Amphion with an Oberon Bezel


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Näcken with an L&H logo.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Me: I'm not looking for more ideas.

You: Hey, I got an idea...


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

sounds like a bunch of guys looking to mod to me


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Me: I'm not looking for more ideas.
> 
> You: Hey, I got an idea...


Mine was less directed at you and more poking the bear that doesn't like the dog logo.

(It was a rough day at work)


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Someone say dog?









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I made my own homage to L&H, with a Top Grade ETA 2824-2 with high decoration, the H3 case and custom hands.

I'm digging the Devil Ray, may have to get in on that in silver or orange.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I might make more of the Nacken Modern Black, as people have asked about it, though I might not, because I'd rather make too few than too many, and all other things being equal, I see more value in making something new than I see in making more of something we've already made.


I, for one, hope you decide to make another run of the Nacken as I am unable to pull the trigger on one right now.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Me: I'm not looking for more ideas.
> 
> You: Hey, I got an idea...


I got bored and thought of this.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Me: I'm not looking for more ideas.
> 
> You: Hey, I got an idea...


The sky was such a nice blue today, and it's like the sun was bursting through the clouds. What? I didn't say anything about watches.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Amphion vintage Blue in da house! Too bad that now the type of USPS used transfers to not the regular post in France : we have now a 100% chance to get bitten by taxes... Well, we're used to that here so...
Anyway, it's my second NTH and certainly not the last. What a gorgeous slim piece! Colours, textures, all is subtle but greatly executed. The bracelet is a nice surprise, too...
Anyway this beauty says hello!










Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Sooooo, watch-ya doing these days?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ConfusedOne said:


> I got bored and thought of this.


You owe me a new laptop! I just spit chai latte all over mine...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> You owe me a new laptop! I just spit chai latte all over mine...


"chai latte"? Will you be enjoying some Grey Poupon with your brunch as well sir? :roll:


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> You owe me a new laptop! I just spit chai latte all over mine...


If you like your chai latte extra spicy I suggest sprinkling some garam masala on top. Credit to Terrain garden café in Glen Mills for that tip.

edit: they also had a nice blueberry chai that worked surprisingly well.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

All my chai latte money goes towards cool watches :-(







:-!


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Well...an NTH on the way now. Sorry doc, this was second hand because I wasnt playing in this sandbox when you first released them. You will get my DevilRay money though. Picked up a good deal on an Azores mint even though I was really wanting a vanilla or Antilles black. I am too impatient for this sometimes.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

New strap arrived for my Barracuda. When the Barracuda arrives I'll post a pic.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

mplsabdullah said:


> View attachment 12470477


Why oh why doesn't this have solid black hands??

More money of mine that doc could have if only if only ...

Disclaimer: this post does not contain any ideas.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Avo said:


> Why oh why doesn't this have solid black hands??More money of mine that doc could have if only if only ...Disclaimer: this post does not contain any ideas.


Funny thing is I actually prefer it a lot more because it does not have solid hands. :-! Imo it would look odd with them solid. Funny that "beauty in the eye" thing and all.


----------



## Watch19 (Oct 15, 2016)

During the day, the skeleton hands are perfect for the white Antilles. They do make it harder to read in the dark when the lume starts to fade. The same hands, but solid with white paint to mimic the skeleton look might have been a solution. Doc may have mentioned that as a possibility during the design phase.
I have the same late night issue with my NY004-09W. The Citizen has lume on the dial and hands which reduces the silhouette effect that would make for better readability in the dark. There are a few NY004 owners that painted the hands black just for that reason.
I'm guessing that solid hands work best in lume faced watches in the dark but aren't as aesthetically pleasing in daylight.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> "chai latte"? Will you be enjoying some Grey Poupon with your brunch as well sir? :roll:


Actually, my lunch had a spicy brown mustard.

Yes, I drink chai lattes. I never developed a taste for coffee, and always preferred teas.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Watch19 said:


> I'm guessing that solid hands work best in lume faced watches in the dark but aren't as aesthetically pleasing in daylight.


Plenty of lume-faced watches have solid black hands: Damasko DA47, Momentum Torpedo, Boschett Harpoon, Lum-Tec V5 ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone within driving distance of Niantic, CT, there's a GTG being organized by the Diver's Watches group on facebook, which I plan to attend on the 10th - WITH THE DEVIL RAY PROTOTYPES.









If you're on FB, it's probably a good thing if you register as attending - https://www.facebook.com/events/882...tory_type":"regular","action_history":"null"}.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> If you like your chai latte extra spicy I suggest sprinkling some garam masala on top. Credit to Terrain garden café in Glen Mills for that tip.
> 
> edit: they also had a nice blueberry chai that worked surprisingly well.


I usually just brew it in a Keurig and drink it. Most of what you just said reads like gibberish to me.

"Garam masala" - seriously, fess up. That's some made-up words right there, right?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm not a fan of solid hands on full-lume dials.

Just be happy I didn't give you jazz hands.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> I usually just brew it in a Keurig and drink it. Most of what you just said reads like gibberish to me.
> 
> "Garam masala" - seriously, fess up. That's some made-up words right there, right?


Chai latte: that drink you like

Spicy: having the quality, flavor, or fragrance of spice

Garam masala: an Indian spice mix that can be found in your local acme, giant, Pathmark (oh wait they are backrupt), or fancier grocery establishment. Fairly similar to the spices in chai tea.

Terrain garden cafe: a restaurant that is part of a larger garden center.

Glenn Mills: that area of Pennsylvania where 322, 1, and 202 meet.

Blueberry: a popular fruit.

Jealous: me of that diver meet up that will get to see the Devil Ray prototypes.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

ryan92084 said:


> Chai latte: that drink you like
> 
> Spicy: having the quality, flavor, or fragrance of spice
> 
> ...


This guy gets it. First in forever. Here's a watch pic of full lume dial with skeletons: tl/dw: change the hands if you dont dig the oem parts.










Another newsflash: doc drinks cider and chai lattes. Not whiskey or beer or coffee. He complains, too, about his weight. Alcohol = sugar. Sweetened alcohol (cider) = more sugar. Chai latte = more sugar. Doc = diabetes risk.

Tl/dr: buy his watches. He's a health risk.

If you met him, youd think: case of beer. Go figure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> This guy gets it. First in forever. Here's a watch pic of full lume dial with skeletons: tl/dw: change the hands if you dont dig the oem parts.
> 
> Another newsflash: doc drinks cider and chai lattes. Not whiskey or beer or coffee. He complains, too, about his weight. Alcohol = sugar. Sweetened alcohol (cider) = more sugar. Chai latte = more sugar. Doc = diabetes risk.
> 
> ...


I actually just started a new diet and exercise plan, and lost 6 pounds in the last 2 weeks, so bite me.

I did once drink an entire case of beer by myself. New Year's Eve. Back in college. Got in a fight. At a fraternity house. Dude split my head open. Still have the scar on my temple.

I once tried to drink an entire keg of beer by myself. Had a party. Back in the army. A bunch of people no-showed on me, so I had to up my drinking. Passed out and wet the bed.

I regret nothing.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> WITH THE DEVIL RAY PROTOTYPES.


I can pre-order tomorrow right? It's September tomorrow.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

Head splitting and bed wetting. I like it...:-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Horoticus said:


> Head splitting and bed wetting. I like it...:-!


Mrs. Doc was not pleased about the bed.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Was she in it?



docvail said:


> Mrs. Doc was not pleased about the bed.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Was she in it?


Up to her neck.


----------



## smatrixt (Aug 7, 2014)

Update on my chronometer Amphion. Since August 3rd it's gained 6.1 seconds for a daily average of +0.2 s/d. This has been with near 24/7 wear with maybe a day or two on the winder.

Just incredible.

Going to give it a rest on the winder for a few days now.


----------



## synaptyx (Nov 25, 2013)

docvail said:


> Up to her neck.


That's some dark stuff right there. Hats off to her for still being mrs Vail. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

synaptyx said:


> That's some dark stuff right there. Hats off to her for still being mrs Vail.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So, she's the Keeper of the Vail, now?

Sorry, unqualified GOT joke.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

I drink English breakfast tea. Love coffee, but am not allowed it for medicinal reasons. Herbal tea never did the trick.

I don't like my watches de-decaffeinated.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

smatrixt said:


> Update on my chronometer Amphion. Since August 3rd it's gained 6.1 seconds for a daily average of +0.2 s/d. This has been with near 24/7 wear with maybe a day or two on the winder.
> 
> Just incredible.
> 
> Going to give it a rest on the winder for a few days now.


Lucky you, my blue Amphion has gained 8.5 seconds in the 24 hours I've had it. Might settle down a bit, still...

But what a beaut'!

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Link doesn’t show where is that?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> So, she's the Keeper of the Vail, now?
> 
> Sorry, unqualified GOT joke.
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Link doesn't show where is that?


Is this for me, about the GTG?

Address highlighted in the image I posted above the link. Sorry, I'm on a different computer, but go back a couple pages, you'll see it.

I'm taking a train up to New London, about 15 minutes away from Niantic. John Keil from WatchGauge agreed to pick me up - he's taking the ferry from Long Island. He owes me after I drove him to get his car back after it was towed here in Philly.

Hope you, and the world's most in-shape veterinarian can join us from LI.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Boop









Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also - Näcken Modern Blue, now sold out.

Thank you, Norsemen. Apparently my watches are well-liked among the Viking-spawn. Without actually counting, it seems like a good portion of the subs are going to Scandinavia.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> Anyone within driving distance of Niantic, CT, there's a GTG being organized by the Diver's Watches group on facebook, which I plan to attend on the 10th - WITH THE DEVIL RAY PROTOTYPES.
> 
> View attachment 12471507
> 
> ...


Which group I Am in awdo and fans of dive watches they link doesn't work and I don't see it on the groups I am in pls help


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> Is this for me, about the GTG?
> 
> Address highlighted in the image I posted above the link. Sorry, I'm on a different computer, but go back a couple pages, you'll see it.
> 
> ...


Damn Phillie was allot closer


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Which group I Am in awdo and fans of dive watches they link doesn't work and I don't see it on the groups I am in pls help


Ah, sorry. Here you go - https://www.facebook.com/groups/DiversWatches/


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

A better pic than last, but it's hard to capture the blue of the beam and of the dial...

So great I have to look at it every time the light is different to see how it looks in these conditions!










Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Also - Näcken Modern Blue, now sold out.
> 
> Thank you, Norsemen. Apparently my watches are well-liked among the Viking-spawn. Without actually counting, it seems like a good portion of the subs are going to Scandinavia.


That's both good news and bad news. Too bad I wasn't able to get one before they sold out. Though if all else fail (i.e. you not making any more of them) with that last piece of info, there's apparently a chance one of them showing up on the secondary market in my neighborhood.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Heads up, there will be some Tropics (all sold out on Chris' site) and some Subs - including the Vintage Black & modern blue Näckens (sold out on Chris' site) available on watchgauge dot com.

So you know, if you missed the boat on these, here's your chance to get some unused ones.


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

yesterday i pulled off the plastic on my nacken vintage black and it was such a pleasure ! yes it plays to senses.
i was thinking of keeping it in literally new condition in case i might need to sell it though i loved it , but really we live once and i am the one who appreciates it right now with full regard, so whom i was thinking about ...
started wearing it today and now full of warm and subtle pleasure, so i'll need to come with photos and more detailed personal description later


----------



## CantFightJose (Dec 29, 2016)

The world needs more Näckens.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CantFightJose said:


> The world needs more Näckens.


It'll have at least one more, the Näcken Renegade.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaannnddd...this just in, courtesy of the assembly team.









I'd open them all and post pics, but my wife wants to go out for dinner, and she gets "hangry", so I gotta run. I'll try to post pics of all of them tomorrow.

So far, though...yeah, I may need to change into some bigger shorts.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> Aaaannnddd...this just in, courtesy of the assembly team.
> 
> View attachment 12474217
> 
> ...


Wait, this is how you are introducing new models these days? By driving-by and sticking it out of the window, leaving the folks here with no information just a pic and the ominous ... "näcken renegade" .... you are a merciless guy 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Wait, this is how you are introducing new models these days? By driving-by and sticking it out of the window, leaving the folks here with no information just a pic and the ominous ... "näcken renegade" .... you are a merciless guy
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


Uhm, yes?

I mentioned the Spectre II a few weeks ago, give or take.

I did say I was working on new versions of the Subs. The one I know for certain I plan to make, I've been calling the "Näcken Renegade", as it doesn't quite fit neatly into the modern or vintage, this color or that color naming convention I've been using for them.

My post above isn't really the "announcement". That's what my email newsletter, Facebook page, and Instagram is for. But it's just us girls hanging out here, so I figured it wouldn't upset anyone's apple cart if I posted a sneak peek.

I'll post more pics in a few.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

All Vail the underdogs
All Vail the new kids
All Vail the outlaws
Tropics and DevilRays

And I say hey
hey hey hey
Watch fund dwindles away

Living like a Renegade...



docvail said:


> It'll have at least one more, the Näcken Renegade.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> All Vail the underdogs
> All Vail the new kids
> All Vail the outlaws
> Tropics and DevilRays
> ...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Also - Näcken Modern Blue, now sold out.
> 
> Thank you, Norsemen. Apparently my watches are well-liked among the Viking-spawn. Without actually counting, it seems like a good portion of the subs are going to Scandinavia.


Glad I was able to get one of the last ones. Mine is getting more wrist time than I thought it would, especially considering I don't even have my leather strap for it yet. On a hot day I tend to grab either it or the Zodiac and wear them on silicone straps, and most of the time it's been the NTH lately. It just makes for a better casual watch, the Seawolf is just a bit dressy. I've discovered I have a rather dangerous addition to blue divers, and I've been kicking myself a bit lately for missing out on Evant's Blue Fume Breguet No. 1646 homage. Apparently I'm not the only one, as they seem to sell within hours on the second hand market, at or *above *original retail. Crazy.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Alright, so...Spectre II's...

It appears that the "orange" seconds hand isn't as dark as I thought it would be, and my phone isn't helping much with its color differentiation, but, believe it or not, one of these seconds hands is orange (light orange, but orange), and one is yellow...









[The one on the left is orange, the one on the right is yellow.]









The matte black dial will be available with or without a date window located at 3 o'clock, with a white date wheel, and your choice of orange (light orange), yellow, or light blue seconds hand:

























The blue sunburst dial will be available with or without a date window located at 3, o'clock, with a white date wheel, and your choice of orange (light orange), or yellow seconds hand. In the pics which follow, the yellow hand is on the dial with the date window, the orange (light orange) hand is on the no-date dial.

Blue & Yellow:

























Blue & Orange:

























My plan is to have these photographed along with the DevilRay protos when I get them, then start taking orders.

We've got all the parts made, and here, so we'll be assembling them to customers' orders, and likely delivering ~30-ish days after we start assembly.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yes, the lume is good.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Looks good


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I like it that every time I turn around, Doc is putting up something interesting and innovative. I like his take on the subs and can see why he'd like to move on to new and more interesting designs. This is one. I like the modern and sleek look, and the lume, OMG.

Edit: The sunburst blue is great. The watch itself reminds me kinda sorta of the Sinn 240.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

The blue Spectre is really cool.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Hmmm... date...? No date...? I'm thinking that the date upsets the balance... not sure though... But... WOW!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*squint* in the blue sunburst pics, did you post the same watch twice or is it really pics of the yellow and orange? On the black I think I can see the difference, but on the blue they look really similar.

Anyways. Looks pretty damn cool.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Spectre - really bigging up on the WoW!! factor - and that blue sunburst...... I'm gonna have to bury that credit card. Just one thing tho' , not meant as a dis but is the C130 silhouette a maybe or a deffo? 

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Glad I was able to get one of the last ones. Mine is getting more wrist time than I thought it would, especially considering I don't even have my leather strap for it yet. On a hot day I tend to grab either it or the Zodiac and wear them on silicone straps, and most of the time it's been the NTH lately. It just makes for a better casual watch, the Seawolf is just a bit dressy. I've discovered I have a rather dangerous addition to blue divers, and I've been kicking myself a bit lately for missing out on Evant's Blue Fume Breguet No. 1646 homage. Apparently I'm not the only one, as they seem to sell within hours on the second hand market, at or *above *original retail. Crazy.


Completely with you on blue, this colour on a watch, in almost any hue, really draws me in and when that blue Evant came out, it was _very _trouser troubling - but.....

I prevaricated on clicking on the "Buy Now" button because something was eating at me and I came to the conclusion that it was just, well, too "pretty" for a dive-watch. Don't get me wrong, that slim, convex, shiny bezel, the exquisite dial layout all had me going, but that Bling factor finally said - no. One other deal breaker was that the Evant is way too deep in the case height for it's dial/bezel relationship; if you want to see how this design requisite is done properly, well you know where to look for that.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Tom Kelly (Apr 6, 2015)

Ragl said:


> Completely with you on blue, this colour on a watch, in almost any hue, really draws me in and when that blue Evant came out, it was _very _trouser troubling - but.....
> 
> I prevaricated on clicking on the "Buy Now" button because something was eating at me and I came to the conclusion that it was just, well, too "pretty" for a dive-watch. Don't get me wrong, that slim, convex, shiny bezel, the exquisite dial layout all had me going, but that Bling factor finally said - no. One other deal breaker was that the Evant is way too deep in the case height for it's dial/bezel relationship; if you want to see how this design requisite is done properly, well you know where to look for that.
> 
> ...


Well I didn't prevaricate, I clicked and bought the Evant. It's my first non Doc watch in a long time. It's a beautiful watch....but it's not an NTH. I will eventually sell it, but right now it's part of my daily watch rotation: Santa Cruz, Azores vanilla, and Blue fume.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Tom Kelly said:


> Well I didn't prevaricate, I clicked and bought the Evant. It's my first non Doc watch in a long time. It's a beautiful watch....but it's not an NTH. I will eventually sell it, but right now it's part of my daily watch rotation: Santa Cruz, Azores vanilla, and Blue fume.
> 
> View attachment 12475381


Totally understandable Tom; I still linger and lurk when one comes up for sale - I may ultimately enable myself into having one.......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jamesezra said:


> Looks good


Cheers, mate!



Tanjecterly said:


> I like it that every time I turn around, Doc is putting up something interesting and innovative. I like his take on the subs and can see why he'd like to move on to new and more interesting designs. This is one. I like the modern and sleek look, and the lume, OMG.
> 
> Edit: The sunburst blue is great. The watch itself reminds me kinda sorta of the Sinn 240.


The Sinn 240 was one of the inspirations.

The concept of the original Spectre was to update the traditional fleiger with an injection of modern racing watch. The Spectre II reverses that, by injecting some vintage racing watch into a modern pilot.



Iliyan said:


> The blue Spectre is really cool.


Thanks Ilyan!



X2-Elijah said:


> *squint* in the blue sunburst pics, did you post the same watch twice or is it really pics of the yellow and orange? On the black I think I can see the difference, but on the blue they look really similar.
> 
> Anyways. Looks pretty damn cool.


Yeah, you'll have to take my word on it, but I admit, at first glance, I thought I got two yellow seconds hands on both the blue and the black. Their colors are similar, and because the hands are so thin, it makes it harder to differentiate them, especially in those pics from my mobile. We've seen before that mobile phone cameras aren't great at differentiating colors, and will often distort them.



Ragl said:


> Spectre - really bigging up on the WoW!! factor - and that blue sunburst...... I'm gonna have to bury that credit card. Just one thing tho' , not meant as a dis but is the C130 silhouette a maybe or a deffo?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


It's a deffo. All the parts are already made. The "protos" are essentially production pieces, just the first five we assembled.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I've seen a lot of those Evants lately. I'm not big on sapphire bezels, personally, but they seem really nice, especially that blue fume. I'm hoping someone at the GTG in CT will have one I can check out.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> I've seen a lot of those Evants lately. I'm not big on sapphire bezels, personally, but they seem really nice, especially that blue fume. I'm hoping someone at the GTG in CT will have one I can check out.


Phew, I am glad. Other than black (on my Magrette MPP Black) I can't stand sapphire bezel inserts.

I tend to think that the marvelous color play on the bezel of the näcken and the Santa Cruz is due to it being s/s - with sapphire you gain "depth" in original color, but loose versatility in its shades...of you understand what I am trying to say...

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> The concept of the original Spectre was to update the traditional fleiger with an injection of modern racing watch. The Spectre II reverses that, by injecting some vintage racing watch into a modern pilot.


This is the kind of stuff I really dig about your watches. Unbeholden to stodgy notions of design heritage, and with the freedom that small-batch watch gives you economically, you can freely mix and match design languages to create new pieces that don't have much equivalent on the market.

I'm excited about the new subs. I'll try to keep some funds tucked away so I can actually snag one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Phew, I am glad. Other than black (on my Magrette MPP Black) I can't stand sapphire bezel inserts.
> 
> I tend to think that the marvelous color play on the bezel of the näcken and the Santa Cruz is due to it being s/s - with sapphire you gain "depth" in original color, but loose versatility in its shades...of you understand what I am trying to say...
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


I just never warmed up to sapphire bezels. Something about them, too cold and hard.

Plus, although they're virtually unscratchable, my understanding is that they're a b!tch to replace if you crack one, and I've seen people post pics showing how they can delaminate - they get moisture trapped under them, and it rots, ruining the markings. I'm not positive, but I think you have to replace the entire bezel assembly, not just the insert, and maybe the entire case.

I've debated using ceramic, which is about as hard and unscratchable, but like steel, has the lume on top, and isn't transparent. There are more colors available with ceramic than there are with steel + PVD/DLC, but I worry about having to replace cracked inserts, something I don't worry about with steel.

I haven't had to replace any inserts since we started using PVD/DLC-coated stainless steel, and if you look around at other micros, some of them are starting to follow suit. Magrette's been using it for the bezels on their recent models, the new Borealis Portus Cale will have a steel bezel, etc.

Last night, as I was standing up to leave the restaurant where we ate dinner, my Scorpene went flying off my wrist. Seriously, at some point, I'll put loctite on all the screws, so this stops happening.

We were eating outside, on a brick patio. My watch when skidding across it. People gasped. I spent the next few minutes looking the watch over - I swear, I couldn't find a mark on it.

I sometimes see people post comments about preferring a raised bezel pip, or b!tching that the insert is steel, rather than ceramic or sapphire, or wanting drilled lugs, or a raised, big-box crystal, or thicker bracelet links, or criticizing the end-link, or the date window location, and it's hard for me not to point out the problems with people's preferences.

Raised pips get knocked off, and you need to replace the insert. Ceramic and sapphire can crack, and you need to replace the insert. Sapphire delaminates, and you need to replace the insert.

Sometimes, the lugs can't be drilled through because of where the holes have to be located, and where those holes would be on the outer surface. The date window can't be moved outward or inward, because that's not where the date wheel is - I can only move it up or down. The links are as thick as they are based on the thickness of the case.

A raised, big-box crystal defeats the point of designing a really thin case. You can't perfectly match the outer surface of the end-link to the case when the bezel is recessed, unless you want the link to come up over the bezel, or have an unsightly, chopped-off top ledge.

I could spend my entire day defending all the little things people criticize, despite being exactly as they need to be, or ought to be.

Ugh...watch geeks...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> This is the kind of stuff I really dig about your watches. Unbeholden to stodgy notions of design heritage, and with the freedom that small-batch watch gives you economically, you can freely mix and match design languages to create new pieces that don't have much equivalent on the market.
> 
> I'm excited about the new subs. I'll try to keep some funds tucked away so I can actually snag one.


Cheers.

Do try to sock away or otherwise raise funds for one of the current or future Subs, if you like them. I'm not sure how many more I'll make.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

> Ugh...watch geeks...


Bwahahahahaha you knew the risks. For example, I like a raised pip / pearl at 12 on a bezel. It's the only itsy-bitsy thing I'd change on the Barracuda. You see I don't care if it gets knocked out. _It's all part of the wabi_, baby!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I don't need no stinking pip 









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Agent Sands said:


> This is the kind of stuff I really dig about your watches. Unbeholden to stodgy notions of design heritage, and with the freedom that small-batch watch gives you economically, you can freely mix and match design languages to create new pieces that don't have much equivalent on the market.
> 
> I'm excited about the new subs. I'll try to keep some funds tucked away so I can actually snag one.


I am in the same boat. I took on this hobby this year not realizing how much gets invested. Just last year I would NEVER spend more then a hundo on a watch. My collection has tripled and now about to drop $500+ on the devilray ( Canadian dollars so it will be a bit more lol).
Now doc drops the Renegade?!?! I pretty much have the devil fund assured and now another Nackén!!! I am going to dig deeper cause I am NOT missing the pre-order boat.

All hail tha Doc...... How evil you are to manipulate the force for your bidding...

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ragl said:


> Completely with you on blue, this colour on a watch, in almost any hue, really draws me in and when that blue Evant came out, it was _very _trouser troubling - but.....
> 
> I prevaricated on clicking on the "Buy Now" button because something was eating at me and I came to the conclusion that it was just, well, too "pretty" for a dive-watch. Don't get me wrong, that slim, convex, shiny bezel, the exquisite dial layout all had me going, but that Bling factor finally said - no. One other deal breaker was that the Evant is way too deep in the case height for it's dial/bezel relationship; if you want to see how this design requisite is done properly, well you know where to look for that.
> 
> ...


Very much agree on the Evant's case height issue. That's the one thing that's giving me pause about putting up a "WTB" post for one. I *love* the bezel, and I love dress divers so I'm not bothered at all by its fanciness... or even the all polished case which I usually don't love. I know it's not supposed to be a "tool" diver. It's just unnecessarily tall for something 30ATM rated with an ETA 2824 in it. It has the case height of a typical Valjoux 7750 powered chronograph, and I'm not sure why. Borealis managed a 30ATM rating at ~12.5mm with the STP, and of course the Nacken does it one better at 11.5mm with the Miyota. Why is Evant's watch pushing 14mm for the same depth rating? The all polished slab sides don't help it either. If it was <13mm I'd be all over it. I may end up just sitting this one out.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



LordBrettSinclair said:


> Bwahahahahaha you knew the risks. For example, I like a raised pip / pearl at 12 on a bezel. It's the only itsy-bitsy thing I'd change on the Barracuda. You see I don't care if it gets knocked out. _It's all part of the wabi_, baby!
> 
> 
> View attachment 12476113


Some guys like the well-worn look of a vintage watch, and/or don't mind it when they buy vintage.

But having sold about 600 various Orthos models with an anodized aluminum insert and raised pip, I can tell you that the typical WIS who spends $400-$600 on a watch will often email me about buying a replacement insert the moment their bezel gets its first scratch, or the pip gets knocked off.

I've gotten so many of those emails, I had to draft a template response, in order to save myself the time I'd been spending banging out replies to all of them.



Mil6161 said:


> I don't need no stinking pip
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mean - it wouldn't give me Forest Whitaker eye looking at it, and I don't dive, and certainly wouldn't be timing my decompression stops using my Orthos if I did, but judging by the number of people who get upset about a missing pip or scratched bezel insert, you and I may be the anomalies among the watch-geeks.

I don't know how many sales I might lose because a bezel doesn't have a raised pip. I do know I haven't gotten any emails about missing pips on the NTH Subs, nor have I had to send out a single replacement insert.

Steel inserts with recessed pips - 1

Aluminum inserts with raised pips - 0

(Glady Knight and the Pips -3)


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I want credit for the gladys knight reference. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> Last night, as I was standing up to leave the restaurant where we ate dinner, my Scorpene went flying off my wrist. Seriously, at some point, I'll put loctite on all the screws, so this stops happening.


I knew your watches were solid, but that's an amazing story. As for loctite on the screws... See comments about the Hamtun H1 bracelet where every link has, as I recall, four screws that each need loctite. Not a nice thing to be needing to do. (i.e. a royal PITA)


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Finally I got it back. A friend of mine borrowed it for 2 weeks.

Day one: he changed the strap. His comment: "wow, I love it"
Day two: changed from leather to NATO. Comment: "awesome piece!"
Day three: showed it to his girl. Comment: "tremendous value!"
Day four: ordered a Santa Cruz for himself. 
Days 5-12: wore it daily until the SC arrived.
Day 13: comparison shots
Day 14: gave it back on bracelet.
From day 15: wears his SC on bracelet after sizing it.

Awesome 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

The dial of the vintage subs under strong lights? Wow!










Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I've seen a lot of those Evants lately. I'm not big on sapphire bezels, personally, but they seem really nice, especially that blue fume. I'm hoping someone at the GTG in CT will have one I can check out.


It's actually not sapphire on the Evant, it's ceramic. It just looks like some of the convex sapphire bezels you see on Blancpains and the like. I tend to like them when they are done well. I also like the SS bezel on the Nacken quite a bit, it has a really unique look that's different than the usual aluminum like on a Glycine, and also different than engraved ceramic. My least favorite bezels are aluminum because they tend to scratch so easily and generally are not lumed either at all or just the pip, and mineral glass as on the Zodiac Seawolf compression, which is just dumb.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> It's actually not sapphire on the Evant, it's ceramic. It just looks like some of the convex sapphire bezels you see on Blancpains and the like. I tend to like them when they are done well. I also like the SS bezel on the Nacken quite a bit, it has a really unique look that's different than the usual aluminum like on a Glycine, and also different than engraved ceramic. My least favorite bezels are aluminum because they tend to scratch so easily and generally are not lumed either at all or just the pip, and mineral glass as on the Zodiac Seawolf compression, which is just dumb.


Wow. I had no idea the insert was ceramic, or that ceramic could look so close to sapphire. Thanks for telling me that.

Logical or not, I think part of what bothers me about the domed sapphire bezels, and in this case, that ceramic bezel, is the way it reflects light. I can't help feeling like I'm looking at something fragile, like porcelain - cold and hard, but brittle.

I don't know what's possible to do about it with sapphire, but I know ceramic can have a matte finish. Some of the Zelos Hammerheads have a matte ceramic insert, and I like that better.

At the same time, matte ceramic is almost too non-reflective, to the point it sort of reminds me of a chalk-board. I think perhaps it would look better in colors other than black.

I like the "warmer" look of most aluminum inserts, when the finish is semi-matte/semi-reflective, but of course they can scratch more easily.

The NTH Subs' inserts are brushed, which is still a little more reflective than I'd prefer, but the less-reflective finish alternative is blasted, which looks fantastic - until you ding it, then it looks like hell.

I asked my factory about using a matte ceramic insert with the DevilRay. It was explained to me to get the markers lumed, the tooling required to make the indents in the ceramic would be wider than what was required to lume the markers on a steel insert.

That would make all the markers wider, like bold-face font, and with the size of the DR's insert, that would mean making it all look more crowded, unless we wanted to increase the size of the watch, to get a larger diameter insert, and more space to work with.

There was also something about problems dealing with numbers that had a center-stroke, which creates "islands", like on 6 and 9, so we'd have to change the font to something more stencil-ish, leaving a break in that line.

Assuming I didn't mind changing the font, getting the bezel to the width we'd need probably would have only added 1mm to the case width, but by the time we discussed it, it had already been almost 2 months since we finalized the design, and we'd already widened the markers from how they'd been in our concept drawings. I didn't want to widen them more, and make it all look more crowded, nor did I want to risk losing more time dealing with the factory's designers changing the case it took me so long to get how I wanted it, so we decided to to stick with steel.

I may look at doing something with a ceramic insert in the future, but for now, I'm a big believer in the virtues of steel.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Speaking of bezel inserts and Zelos...

Okay they did this for dials, but, in theory:

- would it be possible to make a *Meteorite bezel insert*? (Or maybe a meteorite rehaut.. crown... ?)


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Wow. I had no idea the insert was ceramic, or that ceramic could look so close to sapphire. Thanks for telling me that.
> 
> Logical or not, I think part of what bothers me about the domed sapphire bezels, and in this case, that ceramic bezel, is the way it reflects light. I can't help feeling like I'm looking at something fragile, like porcelain - cold and hard, but brittle.
> 
> ...


Domed bezels like that, either sapphire or in this case ceramic I tend to only like if they are very thin, as on the Evant. Large curved bezels I think look like a big rubber tire around the watch, not a fan. With the Evant's overall design, I think the "delicate" look of the bezel works - overall it doesn't look like a watch that you'd ever seriously dive with, unlike say a Helberg CH8 with its sapphire bezel insert, which is 100ATM rated and a "serious" dive watch.

I'm really not much of a fan of matte ceramic bezels, which I agree are a bit too dull looking. The Aquis is available with both glossy and matte ceramic bezels in different versions, and I prefer the glossy look by far. Overall though, I think engraved ceramic tends to only work well in black or dark blue. Otherwise you're right, aluminum tends to look nicer. The green or red bezels on the Combat Sub for example wouldn't look as nice if they were high gloss ceramic.

The brushed steel look definitely works, and it makes your watches pretty unique as it's not all that common. On a thinner bezel like the Cascais though, I'm not sure it would work as well. I think they made the right call with ceramic on that one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Speaking of bezel inserts and Zelos...
> 
> Okay they did this for dials, but, in theory:
> 
> - would it be possible to make a *Meteorite bezel insert*? (Or maybe a meteorite rehaut.. crown... ?)


Is it possible? I don't know. But I'd think not.

I'm no astro-physicist, but I think meteorite is basically "space rock", which I'd think would make it harder to shape and form into all the parts typically made out of metal.

A dial is a flat disk. An insert could also be, but a rehaut and a crown have more complex shapes.

If it is possible, I'm no sure it's advisable, or if it would be very cost-effective, if the added difficulty raises the production cost, and therefore the purchase price, beyond what people are willing to pay, and I'm not sure how well an external part made of rock would hold up over time.

Yes, it's hard, but hard is also brittle, so there's the potential for the part to break or chip. A dial is one thing, but a bezel insert or a crown?

Regarding the costs, case in point - the steel-cased Hammerhead is $650, with "only" a Seiko NH35 in it. I'm not here to say that's too much, but I'm keenly aware of how many WIS have very strong feelings about watches above certain price points which use "lower" level movements.

I have no doubt that the Hammerhead is a great watch, with a lot going for it, but I imagine it costs $650, despite "only" having a Seiko NH35 inside, at least in part because of the use of meteorite for the dials, plus either damascus steel or fully lumed ceramic bezel inserts, lumed crown (wonder where that idea came from), 1000m WR, etc. Look at the bronze case version - it's $850.

Plus - why would you? I mean, using meteorite at all seems a bit gimmicky to start with, in my opinion, inasmuch as it does nothing to increase performance or functionality, and arguably, if it decreases legibility, then it hinders functionality.

I understand it in a dress watch, or something a bit more fun than functional, like a fashion watch, but on a diver, for me personally, I don't care for it. I think tool watches, even if they're never used as originally intended, ought to still be designed in such a way that they COULD be used as intended.

When it comes to the trade-offs which get made, wherein function gives way to style, I'm a bit more conservative. I try to make things look good without sacrificing usability.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

If you're going to use a rare material for a watch, I think it makes more sense to have it go along with the theme of the watch, like the bit of fabric from the Wright Flyer in Bremont's rotor, which doesn't take away anything from the functionality of the watch. A bit of moon dust in a special edition Fortis Cosmonaut or something would be a cool idea. But meteorite dive watch? I don't really get that one.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

They also made one with I think a single drop of the world's oldest glenlivet whiskey in it. (And, no, it's not my favorite just because it is Glen L.I. vet)


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Just doing the preliminary time accuracy check before sizing (maybe) and wearing (might put a strap on it). People aren't lying. The dial does look much more interesting in person. Hard to capture in a quick phone camera pic. (Also extremely surprised USPS delivered on a holiday.)


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

New Spectre looks great. Especially the blue. |>


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Got the mint Azores in. Beautiful watch but confirms I really want the vanilla or a black Antilles. If I can't manage that I will still be very happy with this watch.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Digging my mint Today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

applejosh said:


> Just doing the preliminary time accuracy check before sizing (maybe) and wearing (might put a strap on it). People aren't lying. The dial does look much more interesting in person. Hard to capture in a quick phone camera pic. (Also extremely surprised USPS delivered on a holiday.)
> 
> View attachment 12480863


I'd like to see a pic with more dust on the watch.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'd like to see a pic with more dust on the watch.


I thought I got enough with the camera lens being in my pocket. And surprised there isn't at least some dog hair in the photo.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

applejosh said:


> I thought I got enough with the camera lens being in my pocket. And surprised there isn't at least some dog hair in the photo.


I think that watch needs to shampoo with Head & Shoulders.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Less dust. Same amateur phone camera (and amateur photographer). And very poor attempt at a lume shot. Running very well so far (about 0.5 sec second slow in 6 hours, dial up).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yeah, that lume shot is terrible. Was Glen or Bill holding your phone for you while you posed?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> If you're going to use a rare material for a watch, I think it makes more sense to have it go along with the theme of the watch, like the bit of fabric from the Wright Flyer in Bremont's rotor, which doesn't take away anything from the functionality of the watch. A bit of moon dust in a special edition Fortis Cosmonaut or something would be a cool idea. But meteorite dive watch? I don't really get that one.
> 
> View attachment 12479113


Not-so-fun-fact about that Bremont - the promotion they did about that watch was worded in such a way that people interpreted it to mean that the piece of fabric in the watch actually came from the Wright brothers' plane.

It didn't. As I understood the story which came out under scrutiny, it was cut from a roll of unused material which had been in the Wright brothers' workshop. Same material used on their plane, but NOT a piece of the actual plane.

Still cool?

Maybe, but...couldn't that also be like a piece of rubber from an unused racing tire of a race-winning team? The tire was never on the track. It never came off the truck, but if it did, the car it would have gone on was fast as hell.

The earth is in space. Technically, all dust on earth is "space dust".

It sounds silly, but I seem to remember some brand making watches with sand encased in the crown, the sand coming from some exotic location. How the hell can you be sure the sand in your crown comes from some topless beach in the South Pacific, and not the New Jersey shore, and why would you care?

How about a watch with a special compartment containing 1cc of sea-water, taken from the same ocean where the world-record free dive was performed?

I dunno. I'm kind of anti-gimmick. If the product is good, why embellish it with all that BS?

For some reason, this gets me thinking of the ridiculous messages I get from people who want a free watch because they're hiking the 3rd highest peak in Idaho, or paddle-boarding down the Congo, and planning to document their journey on YouTube for their 600 followers.

Huh? So you're the top-ranked lawn-mower racer in Alabama, or a nationally-ranked extreme debater. Why do I care? How does giving you a free watch help me?

Selling watches with absurd tales of derring-do? Who am I? J. Peterman? How does that move merchandise?


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

You need a blog about a watch surviving harrowing adventures and extreme circumstances? I have 2 ex wives, 1 current wife, 2 kids and 2 step kids. Thats some ..... right there. Can I get a free Santa Cruz?

it is established I am a moron.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Not-so-fun-fact about that Bremont - the promotion they did about that watch was worded in such a way that people interpreted it to mean that the piece of fabric in the watch actually came from the Wright brothers' plane.
> 
> It didn't. As I understood the story which came out under scrutiny, it was cut from a roll of unused material which had been in the Wright brothers' workshop. Same material used on their plane, but NOT a piece of the actual plane.
> 
> Still cool?


Seriously, very seriously uncool; you could almost certainly say the same for see-through "exhibition" case-backs - what's that all about???
Just sayin'.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

back to the domed sapphire bezel I am also not a fan. I think they remind me too much of those 3d stickers/stick on earings


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I don't know how much truth there is to it, but I have heard that at least some of the reason is to make fake movements obvious.



Ragl said:


> Seriously, very seriously uncool; you could almost certainly say the same for see-through "exhibition" case-backs - what's that all about???
> Just sayin'.
> 
> Cheers,
> ...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Yeah, that lume shot is terrible. Was Glen or Bill holding your phone for you while you posed?


Must've been Glen. Not nearly enough hair in the photo for bill to have been involved.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Back on bezels...

Someone recently pointed out to me how the white lume on a not-that-old ceramic bezel was starting to turn brown, which itself is odd, but what's even odder is that the markers weren't all browning at the same rate. The numbers weren't as dark as the non-numerical markers.

I've now seen multiple examples, from different brands, but here's one (matte ceramic bezel insert):









As a manufacturer, this sort of thing scares me. I don't know which factory produced watches for Hexa. I do know which factory produced some of the other watches I've seen with this happening, and I don't THINK it's the same factory Hexa used, but I can't be sure.

Either way, assuming it's not my factory, they could all be using the same supplier for ceramic inserts, and this could happen again. I don't want to have people coming back to me two years after I made a watch, demanding a bezel insert replacement because of lume patina, or have something like this hurt sales of a future model.

Yep, think I may be sticking with steel for a while.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

hwa said:


> Must've been Glen. Not nearly enough hair in the photo for bill to have been involved.


I am scared to know about this statement. please do not expound


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

HAHA!! ohhh I see you and sooooo want to raise ya, but...I am still on a cloud after seeing my Son for the first time in 9 years as well as my brand new shiny cutie Granddaughter. So I will let ya win this hand...



idvsego said:


> You need a blog about a watch surviving harrowing adventures and extreme circumstances? I have 2 ex wives, 1 current wife, 2 kids and 2 step kids. Thats some ..... right there. Can I get a free Santa Cruz?
> 
> it is established I am a moron.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Ojibway Bob said:


> HAHA!! ohhh I see you and sooooo want to raise ya, but...I am still on a cloud after seeing my Son for the first time in 9 years as well as my brand new shiny cutie Granddaughter. So I will let ya win this hand...


I have a solution...we do a traveling watch blog. It stays with me a few months, then to you, and to the next complete moron with questionable life skills.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Sounds good...I don't know about questionable life skills, I mean I taught myself how to drink at 14-16. Had a Son at 17 but I blame that on the death of my Dad which brought me to my 5th foster home so that is neither here nor there LOL.

anyways I love this idea, Doc you can trust us.....<wink wink nudge nudge say no more>



idvsego said:


> I have a solution...we do a traveling watch blog. It stays with me a few months, then to you, and to the next complete moron with questionable life skills.


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

I'm still thinking about meteorite bezels... I believe that most of the dials and such are sliced from metallic meteorites, which are essentially solid chunks of pure iron (maybe some nickel, not sure). I think most of the metallic meteorites can be traced to the core of Vesta, an asteroid that suffered a huge impact billions of years ago and littered the inner solar system with debris. Which is cool but I digress. 

So they don't use the "space rock" variety. However, being made of iron and not steel, I think they would rust when used on the outside of the watch. It would be like a cast-iron bezel...


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

After my idea of making a watch-strap from bacon, I realise the obvious evolution is the pizza-bezel. _Everyone_ loves pizza, and we all love watches. Please tell me this isn't the ultimate Win / Win, and an unsolicited idea even Doc can get behind.

Here's a picture of what America would look like if it were made of pizza:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> After my idea of making a watch-strap from bacon, I realise the obvious evolution is the pizza-bezel. _Everyone_ loves pizza, and we all love watches. Please tell me this isn't the ultimate Win / Win, and an unsolicited idea even Doc can get behind.
> 
> Here's a picture of what America would look like if it were made of pizza:
> 
> View attachment 12483347


C'mon man! I'm down ten pounds since starting my new diet and exercise regimen, and you bring me this?

Next you'll tell me meteorite isn't really space rock...

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

By the way, what's the difference between a meteor, and a meteorite? Is the meteorite just a meteor that's too small for a movie with Ben Affleck?

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

> I'm down ten pounds since starting my new diet and exercise regimen


I notice Pennsylvania appears to have no pepperoni. This cannot be a coincidence.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Congrats on your trip down Healthy ville. It is a tough place to visit but once you settle in. You will glad you made the move.



docvail said:


> C'mon man! I'm down ten pounds since starting my new diet and exercise regimen, and you bring me this?
> 
> Next you'll tell me meteorite isn't really space rock...
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> I notice Pennsylvania appears to have no pepperoni. This cannot be a coincidence.


Clearly you've never been to Pennsylvania. It wasn't too long ago that Philly was ranked America's fattest city.

We got plenty of pepperoni.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

rscaletta said:


> I'm still thinking about meteorite bezels... I believe that most of the dials and such are sliced from metallic meteorites, which are essentially solid chunks of pure iron (maybe some nickel, not sure). I think most of the metallic meteorites can be traced to the core of Vesta, an asteroid that suffered a huge impact billions of years ago and littered the inner solar system with debris. Which is cool but I digress.
> 
> So they don't use the "space rock" variety. However, being made of iron and not steel, I think they would rust when used on the outside of the watch. It would be like a cast-iron bezel...


I was looking at jewelry made with bits of meteorite recently, and one of them said "Don't wear anywhere it can get wet! Always store with moisture-absorbing gel!", so yeah, you'd likely have a rusting problem. Even with a dial, a little moisture past the seals or during service in a damp climate could start some rust.

I suppose dials may be plated with something to inhibit rusting - I've seen gold-plated meteorite dials, for the fans of extra bling.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

So apparently there is a package waiting for me at home that came from the state known as Pennsylvania :think:

You may now resume the pizza covered meteor discussion. :roll:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> So apparently there is a package waiting for me at home that came from the state known as Pennsylvania :think:
> 
> You may now resume the pizza covered meteor discussion. :roll:


Yep. That's from us.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Just ignore this.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



macosie said:


> Just ignore this.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


Can't.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Why do I always come back to this thread. 

Now I learned the us is made of pizza. I always thought it's burgers. Dammit!!


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Why do I always come back to this thread.
> 
> Now I learned the us is made of pizza. I always thought it's burgers. Dammit!!


But you are all mistaken. The US is made of a burger, sitting on top of a pizza, on top of a stack of pancakes, which sits on a rack of ribs, resting upon a plate of waffles with whipped cream and strawberries.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Karkarov said:


> But you are all mistaken. The US is made of a burger, sitting on top of a pizza, on top of a stack of pancakes, which sits on a rack of ribs, resting upon a plate of waffles with whipped cream and strawberries.


You forgot the fried chicken on the waffle.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Yeah, that lume shot is terrible. Was Glen or Bill holding your phone for you while you posed?


No, I screwed the picture up all by myself.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> By the way, what's the difference between a meteor, and a meteorite? Is the meteorite just a meteor that's too small for a movie with Ben Affleck?
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Not sure if you watched Armageddon recently (as I did as part of disaster movie weekend), but meteorites actually hit the earth. Meteor just burns up completely. So saying meteor in reference to Ben Affleck's career is strangely apropos.


----------



## l3wy (Jun 16, 2012)

Hey Doc, it's been quite a while (work dominated for a year or so)... too long apparently because I completely missed your Antilles watches coming out... the Blue and Champagne dials on those look amazing. Also really digging the Black Cherry Orthos II and the Sapphire Orthos II .. at least those two are still available 

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say.. great looking watches


----------



## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

docvail said:


> By the way, what's the difference between a meteor, and a meteorite? Is the meteorite just a meteor that's too small for a movie with Ben Affleck?


Other way around, sort of...

Meteorite if it manages to make it to the ground. Otherwise, it's just a meteor while it's a streak of light in the sky. (And I suppose before it even makes it to the earth, it's neither)

Someone who knows more about astronomy than I do correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

No meteors around here. But....







I'm thinking there's some sort of radioactive materials in there :think:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

l3wy said:


> Hey Doc, it's been quite a while (work dominated for a year or so)... too long apparently because I completely missed your Antilles watches coming out... the Blue and Champagne dials on those look amazing. Also really digging the Black Cherry Orthos II and the Sapphire Orthos II .. at least those two are still available
> 
> Anyway, that's all I wanted to say.. great looking watches


Welcome back Marshall. I was seriously expecting you to say, "Hey Doc, it's been a while since I asked you to make a 24hr watch..."


----------



## l3wy (Jun 16, 2012)

docvail said:


> Welcome back Marshall. I was seriously expecting you to say, "Hey Doc, it's been a while since I asked you to make a 24hr watch..."


Nah, last time was only a week or two ago.. and I don't think you could have grown 6 inches in any dimension that quickly (I could be mistaken) 

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Not-so-fun-fact about that Bremont - the promotion they did about that watch was worded in such a way that people interpreted it to mean that the piece of fabric in the watch actually came from the Wright brothers' plane.
> 
> It didn't. As I understood the story which came out under scrutiny, it was cut from a roll of unused material which had been in the Wright brothers' workshop. Same material used on their plane, but NOT a piece of the actual plane.


Now that is interesting. I'm aware of the watch from the video that TGV did at the Bremont boutique in NY, and they certainly did not imply that the cloth "was around when the flyer was made." I'm a little bit two minds about it. On the one hand, I'm glad they're not taking off little tiny chunks of fabric from one of the most priceless planes in history for something as basic as a watch movement rotor. On the other hand, they could definitely stand to be more transparent about what that fabric actually is.

Yes, you are correct, the Earth is one of eight planets spinning around a pretty large star that has about 5 billion years of life left in it (and will remain life sustaining for 500M to a billion years or so...you know assuming humans don't do something incredibly stupid to cut that time short). Earth dust also technically being "space dust" doesn't make it valuable or interesting though. The moon is much less interesting than the earth, it's a big dead rock. I doubt however if you asked any of the astronauts that have actually walked on it if _they _thought it was less interesting to walk around up there than say down a street somewhere on this planet, my guess is the answer to that question would be no.

Mars dust would be even cooler. Pluto dust cooler still, and exo-planet dust (not that we have the ability to actually go get some) would be ultra cool. It's still all technically space dust.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Aren't we all technically space dust? 

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## l3wy (Jun 16, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Aren't we all technically space dust?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


True... star dust... really ashes I suppose (the by-products of stars "burning"). So maybe putting it on your dial is a bit like putting a bit of the bones of your 40th cousin 1 billion times removed on there


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I believe what we are now talking about is known as "The Force" "It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." quoted by a Wise old man


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Midichlorian rotor pls, doc.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Three words.

Light saber handset.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Three words.
> 
> Light saber handset.


With Sh!et lume

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Three words.
> 
> Light saber handset.


In that case, had better be tritium lume...

*runs and hides*


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Can we have green glow light sabers? And the awesome electronic sounds?!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DevilRay protos on their way to me now. Should have them by COB Friday.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

applejosh said:


> Not sure if you watched Armageddon recently (as I did as part of disaster movie weekend), but meteorites actually hit the earth. Meteor just burns up completely. So saying meteor in reference to Ben Affleck's career is strangely apropos.


But he was the bomb in "Phantoms!"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rscaletta said:


> But he was the bomb in "Phantoms!"


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Three words.
> 
> Light saber handset.


Coooool. Tritium tube hands confirmed!


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> DevilRay protos on their way to me now. Should have them by COB Friday.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> View attachment 12485245


I dont know if I am just now noticing it or I am just trying to justify a Sub but dang, that case finishing is really nice. The small ridge between polished and brushed finishes, the end link to lug transition...spot on.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

idvsego said:


> I dont know if I am just now noticing it or I am just trying to justify a Sub but dang, that case finishing is really nice. The small ridge between polished and brushed finishes, the end link to lug transition...spot on.


Yeah I've been impressed with mine, and I'm surprised at how often I grab it in the morning over the Borealis. It wasn't *supposed* to be a daily driver, but it sort of has become that, or at least shares that duty with the Cascais, which isn't something I would've done with the bulky and flashy Squale 1521. My CW strap should arrive sometime this week, and I'll post some pics when it does. Looking forward to seeing how the tan matches the blue.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

idvsego said:


> I dont know if I am just now noticing it or I am just trying to justify a Sub but dang, that case finishing is really nice. The small ridge between polished and brushed finishes, the end link to lug transition...spot on.


I have three subs, and I wear at least one of them each day. At least for me, they fit exceptionally well, and the accuracy has been fantastic for these (none currently more than 15 seconds off either way for the week, and 2 of them much better than that). Very happy with these so far.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

applejosh said:


> I have three subs, and I wear at least one of them each day. At least for me, they fit exceptionally well, and the accuracy has been fantastic for these (none currently more than 15 seconds off either way for the week, and 2 of them much better than that). Very happy with these so far.


Awesome. Your opinion of them can only get worse from here...

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Awesome. Your opinion of them can only get worse from here...
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## 2535.80 (Mar 20, 2012)




----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Had the Orthos on for the past couple of days









Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

The DevilRay case is a cushion case similar to a Doxa? I have never bought one of your watches but have read many of your posts. Really liking the Turquoise.


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

mine is also running steady +3 secs a day, so accurate that i don't worry about it at all . one little good thing you don't have to worry about in life makes sense )))


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> The DevilRay case is a cushion case similar to a Doxa? I have never bought one of your watches but have read many of your posts. Really liking the Turquoise.


More turtle shaped, but yes.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

...









Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Today I am sick as a .... .... dog. However there were some Ghost Riders in the sky, so it all panned out.

A pic that doesn't suck to follow later, when I feel a bit less under the weather.









Nice work on this one Doc, well worth the wait.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Karkarov said:


> Today I am sick as a .... .... dog. However there were some Ghost Riders in the sky, so it all panned out.
> 
> A pic that doesn't suck to follow later, when I feel a bit less under the weather.
> 
> ...


Nice! Exact same one landing today as well. Wear in good health and feel better!

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

The eagle has landed!!









Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> The eagle has landed!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks sweet enjoy

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Mil6161 said:


> Looks sweet enjoy
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Thanks! I will!️ Love me sum sammich dials!

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nice! Good to see the Ghost Riders out there - mission accomplished!

For those interested, we've only assembled 25 Ghost Riders so far, and only have 5 left unsold - 2 stainless cases with date windows, 2 DLC cases with date, and 1 DLC no date, all of which should be ready to ship by late next week. Depending on demand, we may or may not assemble any more. 

If we do make more, it would be no more than 20 additional pieces, as that's all the parts we've got available.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

My Phantom has become a trusty beater - you know I'm happy with bashed-up watches, and the acrylic dome has a few dings that make it full of character already. I know some people like their watches pristine, but the Phantom strikes me as one of those pieces that can just as easily take the rough with the smooth.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

My WOTD today.

One-off modded Cerberus with orange rehaut, snatched off one of the blue dial versions.










Sometimes people ask me what I wish I'd have done differently. This is one. It's okay with the stock blue rehaut, but I think it's better with the orange, which gives it a little more sporty feel, and channels the Rolex Milgauss a little more.










I wish that I'd made the "black-tie" Cerb as one of the original colorways, and done the rehaut in orange for the white dial.










All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, I somehow screwed up on the inventory numbers for the Nacken Modern Blue. We actually still have one left in stock, which I just made available on the website.

Come 'n' get it.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My WOTD today.
> 
> One-off modded Cerberus with orange rehaut, snatched off one of the blue dial versions.
> 
> ...


Wow, that black tie is _sharp. _I'm a sucker for dark dials with silver accents, and it's pushing my buttons. If you DLC coated that thing........


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Black tie is niiiiiice


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Wow, that black tie is _sharp. _I'm a sucker for dark dials with silver accents, and it's pushing my buttons. If you DLC coated that thing........


It's also sold out.



idvsego said:


> Black tie is niiiiiice


Still sold out.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> It's also sold out.
> 
> Still sold out.


Wait, you didn't get any in stock in the time it tock you to respond to that other guy? What kind of ship are you running?


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> It's also sold out.
> 
> Still sold out.


I sold mine to my hometown buddy, every time I see him with the black tie cerb I want to rip it off his wrist!

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

idvsego said:


> Wait, you didn't get any in stock in the time it tock you to respond to that other guy? What kind of ship are you running?


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Getting ready for story time with the little


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

idvsego said:


> Wait, you didn't get any in stock in the time it tock you to respond to that other guy? What kind of ship are you running?


Not a very good one, apparently.

I can't even get all these guys to wear the uniform.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

The black tie Cerb is indeed a beauty. Every time I see it pop up I start salivating.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My WOTD today.
> 
> One-off modded Cerberus with orange rehaut, snatched off one of the blue dial versions.
> 
> ...


Hey. That my blacktie and wrist! No worries, sold two of thevthree things pictured. Car and watch. Wrist still mine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just went back and tried to figure out how many black-tie Cerbs were made.

I want to say we had 25 of the dials/handsets made up, but a bunch of them were messed up. My sales records show we sold 6 "kits" to convert someone's existing Cerberus into a black-tie version, and sold another 8 pieces that we converted ourselves, for a total of 14. I didn't even keep one for myself.

Never seen one come up for sale on WatchRecon.

Still not the most limited-edition piece we've ever made. There were only 6 of the Atomic Orange Orthos II's. I did keep one of those for myself.

We also only made 6 of the Emerald Green Orthos II. Despite being an Eagles fan, didn't keep one. 

If you want to get into date/no-date and stainless vs DLC case options, there were only 5 pieces made of some of the Phantoms versions.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

One and only.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Not a very good one, apparently.
> 
> I can't even get all these guys to wear the uniform.


At least you can know you have put your men's minds at ease.

That said, yeap the orange and "black tie" look nice. The cerberus is very versatile. You could have even tried a aqua dial with the orange ring to get really milgaussy.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

This strap has been waiting its entire life for this watch. It JUST Might stay on there for awhile.









...said the man that had over 20 straps on his Phantom Khaki.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)

docvail said:


> I just went back and tried to figure out how many black-tie Cerbs were made.
> 
> I want to say we had 25 of the dials/handsets made up, but a bunch of them were messed up. My sales records show we sold 6 "kits" to convert someone's existing Cerberus into a black-tie version, and sold another 8 pieces that we converted ourselves, for a total of 14. I didn't even keep one for myself.


Only 14 of them ? One of them here, in Antananarivo :


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Those new phantoms look very cool. |>


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Each Amphion is one of 10


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

SHOW OFF!!!! lol


----------



## Craustin1 (Apr 28, 2011)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, as you can see, I got the new protos in. 

I'm up to my eyeballs in a-holes and alligators, as usual, so please give me a chance to take a look at them all, and take some pics. I'll post full details and an FAQ as soon as I can. 

Just sit tight.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Craustin1 said:


> View attachment 12491095


Er, Blue please...........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Craustin1 said:


> View attachment 12491095


Big, big lumps of style going on here..... superb.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

I had a good feeling the Devilray would wear/look similar in size to the Seiko Turtle.
They are looking stellar so far!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I'll take the hairless option please. :roll:


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Guys, as you can see, I got the new protos in.
> 
> I'm up to my eyeballs in a-holes and alligators, as usual, so please give me a chance to take a look at them all, and take some pics. I'll post full details and an FAQ as soon as I can.
> 
> Just sit tight.


Looking good! I love the Monster style chapter ring, without the awful Monster ruining day-date. Seriously, please never do a day-date watch if you haven't already. Love the bezel too, and the 1hr timing/12hr second time zone bezel is more useful than DOXA's no-decompression scale, at least for those of us that aren't actually pro divers.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Okay, time make up for yesterdays poop tastic wrist shot pic. I will throw these up on the Docvail FB group too I guess 

As always, feel free to reuse, brand, chew on, or whatever with these images as you like if you want to do something with them Doc.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*DevilRay FAQ's

*
*Can we see the bracelets?
*
Yes! As soon as I get them, hopefully next week. For now, you can see them on any strap you want, so long as it's the orange rubber, the orange NATO, or one of the black silicone straps they're currently mounted on.

*Where's the depth gauge on the dial?
*
It's there, but straight on, it's all but invisible. You can see it when you tilt the watch one way or the other. No, the design isn't going to be changed because of it.

*Is that one dial white or silver?
*
Yes.

I dunno, I guess I'd say it's more silverish, only because of the sunray pattern, but someone could argue it's white.

*I thought the black was also going to be sunray?
*
It is, BUT, it's hard to detect a sunray finish when the color is either pure white or pure black. This is pure black, and with the AR sapphire, it's almost impossible to detect without the sun hitting it.

My factory's whipping up a dark gun-metal gray dial to send me, to see if that looks better. We'll make a decision about which dial to run with when I get it, and see how it looks. Stay tuned.

*The bezel has polished sides. Is that the way it was supposed to be, and is it going to stay that way?
*
I don't know yet. I want to see what people say. We may brush it for production. Apparently I didn't specify how I wanted the bezel edge finished, so they polished it. I think I hate it, but I'm not sure. My wife likes it, for whatever that's worth.

*How's that fancy new X1 Superluminova lume?
*
It's good. See the pics. But it looks like they filled all the crowns in with green-glowing lume, rather than the blue-glowing lume which should be on the crowns of the orange and blue dial versions, to match their blue-glowing BG W9. No big deal. We'll make sure it's right for full production.

*How's their size? How do they wear?
*
They fit my ~7"-7.25" wrist like hand-made Italian shoes. I'm honestly surprised they don't feel bigger/chunkier than they do. If you've ever tried on a Doxa Sub, they feel a lot like a Doxa Sub - not exactly "big", but dense/solid feeling.

*How's the fit, the finish, the bezel action, etc?
*
We'll see how the bracelets fit when we get them. I think my factory is still tinkering with the position of the lug-holes versus where to drill the hole in the link. You want a tight fit, but you don't want people jumping out windows when they can't get the bracelet back on.

Otherwise, the "fit" of everything else seems pretty good.

Finish is spot-on, from what I've seen so far. I daresay production quality.

Caseback looks awesome.

Bezel action is good, overall. The clicks have good sound and feel, precise, etc. There's a TINY bit of play in them, like, maybe ¼ of a click. It's nowhere near "OMG, this slop, I can't take it" territory, but I'll talk to my factory about it, and see if there's room for improvement in production. I guess we'll see.

*Any missed details?
*
I asked them to print a frame around the date windows, which they didn't do. I'll talk to them to make sure it happens in production. Don't be surprised if we photoshop it in for the website pics.

If there's anything else they missed, I haven't found it yet.

*Can I suggest something you should change for production?
*
Do you want to date my sister? No, you don't, if you've met my nephews - they're like Dewey, Dickem and Howe.

The only thing I'm THINKING about changing is the finish on the bezel's edge, and whether to stick with the pure black or go with a dark gun metal dial. Other than that, these designs are as final now as when I revealed them.

*Shut up and take my money?
*
Sit tight. We need to get the bracelets and figure out the black dial and bezel finish situations, then have them professionally photographed.

*How long will that take? When will you take my money?
*
C'mon man, who am I, Kreskin? Sign up for our email newsletter, and follow us on social media, unless you're in a coma, you'll hear when the pre-order start date is announced. My best guess is we're looking at starting pre-orders sometime in October, the earlier, the better, but I'm at the mercy of the factory, the photographer, and the bloggers at this point.

*Pics taken with my new LG G6 mobile in late afternoon light, facing north, temps in the mid-80's (no editing or filters here, no enhancements at all):

EDIT - except the lume shots, obviously. Those were taken in the closet outside our hallway bathroom, with the watch propped up between the TP and the first aid kit.
*
































































































































































I'm heading out for dinner with my wife. Tomorrow I'll be trying to clean up my office and prepare for the Diver's Watches Facebook Group GTG in CT on Sunday, from which I won't be returning until 1am that night, then I'll be back to work on Monday.

All of which is, in case it wasn't obvious, my way of saying any/all further questions are likely to go unanswered until Monday, at the earliest.

Talk among yourselves until then.

Enjoy the weekend.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jason (Karakov) - thanks for those pics. They're great. I'll try to repost them when I get a chance. Please tag me if you post 'em on IG. Otherwise, enjoy it and wear it in good health (or let me know if it gives you any trouble).


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

For what it's worth Doc, with the thinness of that bezel as you see it from the sides, I think the polished look is fine. I'm not a fan of thick polished shark fin bezels, which I think do look better with a satin finish. And I dig the black dial. One of my favorite aspects of the SARB059 dial in my SKX is that it doesn't normally look green at all. The gorgeous, rich deep forest green sunburst only comes out when the light hits it the right way, and that makes it all the more special when it does.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

That DevilRay is f-ing gorgeous! The blue is my favorite. I might have to rethink my decision to skip that one. I think the bezel looks good the way it is. Excellent work Chris and team!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I think you captured the black sunray. It's hard but you got it. And, yes, I'm going to ante up for one.


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

Can we call the orange, the Sun Ray? Not sure what you'd call the mauve


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Proco2020 said:


> Can we call the orange, the Sun Ray? Not sure what you'd call the mauve


Huh?

Ain't no mauve here.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

OK, how am I going to pay for the blue now?


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

Hot, they are all hot!

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Welp, a blue fume Evant Tropic just came up, and I bought it. It's just too pretty, couldn't help myself. It's a good thing that the DevilRay is too big for me, otherwise my wallet would be in serious (more serious) pain. Replacing my old 5-slot watch case with a 10-slot will be the death of me. I'm _already _at six now. I just wanted the 10-slot case for the strap drawer!!!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

A little B and W









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

the devilray's are stunners for sure. The bezel...I could go either way on it so I defer to the people with it in their hands. I hope pics get posted of the grey dial. Its not that I dislike the black, it is just that I have wanted a grey for a long while and I think this would be a good one for it. a slightly lessened contrast from the chapter ring to the dial would be nice. I like the white more than I thought I would because of that very thing. but whatever choices made, there are purchase-worthy watches right there.


----------



## KJRye (Jul 28, 2014)

I think I would rather the brushed bezel, if its up for discussion.

Polished looks good, to be fair. But I foresee a lot of dust and smudges building up in the roots of the sawteeth and being impossible to clean easily, making it always look dirty. Not that it won't happen with the brushed finish, but it wont be as noticeable compared to fully polished.

Just my 0.02 CAD, which we all know is basically worth nothing! 

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

I think you've outdone yourself Doc! Great!

Now, is there a brightness control for that lume?  


Two with date and two no date... sure makes it tough to decide. Yeah, I know... a diver ain't sposed to have a date... but... Maybe? That orange definitely looks RIGHT with no date... but my wife was nudging me (not knowing the prices) to the turquoise and that one just might look ok with the date, but the pics of it with no date...... Y'all get the difficulty here...


----------



## Stevo (May 3, 2007)

I love it. No suggestions about changing from me. I trust you to do the right magic with it. Well done Chris!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

"Darling, how much do you think that we would get for our youngest? I have a several significant and necessary purchases to make in the near future and I need the funds.......". 

Okay, I'm not gonna sell the children - yet, so I'll just have to hand over my credit card to Doc in perpetuity to ensure I get these must haves; Spectres and Devil Rays now and the masterpieces that we know will be coming down the pike in the future. 

These are such superb designs and styles, can't wait to be wearing them.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Very very good looking prototypes...
Recently I was slowly leening towards the orange, but the pics have set me straight again: my Devil Ray will be blue.

Now about the bezel, I like polished in general but not for tool watches as the dirt and scratches show more on polished surfaces.
And what's worse is that when they show they make the whole watch look cheap...

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

They are as good lookin' as my friend 'Susan Perb' aka Superb.

If your looking for opinions on the bezel - I lean more towards it being brushed for reasons already noted (showing up marks, etc). That said, polished still looks great and wouldn't put me off.


----------



## Proco2020 (Feb 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> Huh?
> 
> Ain't no mauve here.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Grey looks a little mauve on my monitor in that light.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

I'll have you know I was just on Vacation with my cousin Vinnie (placed gently on the T) and he saw my NTH Santa Cruz (he also say my antilles, acionna, and nacken vintage black). He always wears luxury watches (he had on a 50th anniversary submarier....and almost exclusively owns rolex, tag, and omega). as we sat there at the table and he inspected the NTH (we always compare watches and he has about 20), he excaimed that he was in love and needed to have one. I directed him to the website, and he purchased it on the spot. He couldnt beieve the quality as he held it against his rolex (I wont pretend the quality is the same so as to avoid an argument, but he wondered how Doc pulled this off at such a low price and he struggled to find any major differences externally) ......fast forward a few days and he had to evacuate the area because of Irma and the watch hadn't arrived yet.....Thursday I get a text from him at his other home in South Carolina as follows:

"Don't worry, the NTH is safe inside my house in Florida. I had my niece stop by to put it inside for me." (and then he showed me a pic og his new Tag pepsi aquaracer he picked up in South Carolina).....

I cant believe he was even concerned about the watch. He didnt even mention his concern about his house....only that the NTH was safe........how funny


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> Three words.
> 
> Light saber handset.


I'd buy one! Sounds like a great idea to me!

May the Force be with you... always!


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> I'll have you know I was just on Vacation with my cousin Vinnie (placed gently on the T) and he saw my NTH Santa Cruz (he also say my antilles, acionna, and nacken vintage black). He always wears luxury watches (he had on a 50th anniversary submarier....and almost exclusively owns rolex, tag, and omega). as we sat there at the table and he inspected the NTH (we always compare watches and he has about 20), he excaimed that he was in love and needed to have one. I directed him to the website, and he purchased it on the spot. He couldnt beieve the quality as he held it against his rolex (I wont pretend the quality is the same so as to avoid an argument, but he wondered how Doc pulled this off at such a low price and he struggled to find any major differences externally) ......fast forward a few days and he had to evacuate the area because of Irma and the watch hadn't arrived yet.....Thursday I get a text from him at his other home in South Carolina as follows:
> 
> "Don't worry, the NTH is safe inside my house in Florida. I had my niece stop by to put it inside for me." (and then he showed me a pic og his new Tag pepsi aquaracer he picked up in South Carolina).....
> 
> I cant believe he was even concerned about the watch. He didnt even mention his concern about his house....only that the NTH was safe........how funny


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> View attachment 12492681


you stopped reading immediately after "Vinnie" didnt you?


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> you stopped reading immediately after "Vinnie" didnt you?


No, just couldn't resist the reference.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Proco2020 said:


> Grey looks a little mauve on my monitor in that light.


Ain't no grey, either.

The colors are orange, turquoise, black, and white/silver, depending on how badly someone feels the need to argue about it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I can't believe you can't better identify the shade of white/silver. And you can't even provide a Pantone reference? God, your customer service sucks.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

SteamJ said:


> No, just couldn't resist the reference.


I will be honest, I stopped reading after Vinnie. But it was only cause I saw these two youts enter da sack o suds across da street.

I have feedback on the devilray though Doc. I admit I like the white dial, and that blue is spiffy. If you could find a way to make it so they printed out say... 20 dollar bills once every 15 minutes or so I think I can justify the purchase. In all seriousness they look great, particularly the white/silver and blue dials.


----------



## flyersandeagles (Oct 24, 2010)

The juggling act is tipping towards the turquoise dial again...

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

The pics were taken in direct sunlight ...thus showing it more silver and sunray than white...Im gonna wait till I see more pics in different shades of light before I pick either blue or silver/white

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> I can't believe you can't better identify the shade of white/silver. And you can't even provide a Pantone reference? God, your customer service sucks.


It truly is terrible. Now excuse me while I go knock down some kid's sand castle.

I guess I'm past the point of trying to provide the precise words which will satisfy people too stupid/lazy to look at the pics before they buy one.

Silver. White. Pantone Turquoise 309.

Seriously, argue without me.










All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

No final decision has been made yet, but after taking the outdoor pics yesterday, reading people's comments, and having a bit of time to think about it, here are my thoughts.

1. I probably won't change the black dial. I like that it looks matte until the sun hits it, and the contrast with the gray minute track.










2. I'm certainly not going to alter any of the other dial colors, and if people want to argue about them, they can argue without me.

3. While I like the polished strip along the side of the case, I'll most likely have them brush the bezel's edge.

I've been trying to avoid all other threads with any discussion about anything I make, in order to avoid getting sucked into stupid arguments. I'll do my best to also avoid stupid arguments here, though, if you've hung around a while, no doubt you've noticed that stupid arguments sometimes find us.

HWA, I'll trust you to remind me when to spit the hook.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Karkarov (Feb 22, 2016)

Required viewing for Doc's customers -


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> It truly is terrible. Now excuse me while I go knock down some kid's sand castle.
> 
> I guess I'm past the point of trying to provide the precise words which will satisfy people too stupid/lazy to look at the pics before they buy one.
> 
> ...


.....! I was planning to skip this on; but after seeing this white or silver, or whatever the color is... I need to have one....

Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

I've been reading forums of old
The legends and the myths
Watches all but sold
Amphion and his gilts
Superlative control
No Batman as of yet
And clearly I don't see a Blackbay upon that list
But he said, what'd you wanna know?
How much you wanna spend?
I'm not looking for somebody
With some suggestive gifts
Some watch hero
Some fairy-tale list
Just something you can turn to
Something I can't kick

I want something just like this.....


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> No final decision has been made yet, but after taking the outdoor pics yesterday, reading people's comments, and having a bit of time to think about it, here are my thoughts.
> 
> 1. I probably won't change the black dial. I like that it looks matte until the sun hits it, and the contrast with the gray minute track.
> 
> ...


I think you're good, Christopher. I think you're good.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

How about a pic of blue not in direct sunlight?

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


> How about a pic of blue not in direct sunlight?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


I'm almost scared to post this. Something about blue dials always seems to cause widespread spontaneous pants-twisting to break out.










All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> I'm almost scared to post this. Something about blue dials always seems to cause widespread spontaneous pants-twisting to break out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Doc...blue it is...well of as today

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

I think minds are going to be blown when they see it on the BoR bracelet.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

CMA22inc said:


> I've been reading forums of old
> The legends and the myths
> Watches all but sold
> Amphion and his gilts
> ...


All your watches are belong to us.



Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

GlenRoiland said:


> He couldnt beieve the quality as he held it against his rolex (I wont pretend the quality is the same so as to avoid an argument, but he wondered how Doc pulled this off at such a low price and he struggled to find any major differences externally) .....


I'm not a huge fan of most Seamasters, but I do really like the Planet Ocean (other than the He escape valve crown at 10 that disrupts the look). If it was $800 I'd buy one tomorrow. But I keep trying to find reasons why I should spend over $3K for a used one, just by looking at it (I'm not a movement snob and I don't especially care about uber fancy in-house movements.) I always come up empty. It's a great looking watch, it just doesn't look... that.. much.. better than my Nacken in terms of the brush work and finishing, which is what I care about most. I'll never use the He valve so that's just a negative, and I don't wear bracelets so paying a ton of money for an exquisitely finished bracelet with the world's greatest clasp is pointless when it'll just be sitting in a drawer.

I could sell all six of my watches and have nearly enough for a Planet Ocean if I wanted to, but I have absolutely no interest in doing that. Despite the fact that I now own four dive watches, I like that they're all unique in both look and feel. I have a sentimental attachment to the Cascais and I love that it's a lume monster (put it on at around 11am today after wearing it yesterday, lume was still going strong) I love how thin and light the Nacken is, and the Zodiac and now Evant will get much more use as dress watches than an actual dress watch, while still being usable every day, basically depending on the strap.

If you didn't know what kind of watch this was, would you guess that the SRP on it is $6500 or so?


----------



## 59yukon01 (Aug 27, 2014)

If I read correctly and the bracelet is now a BOR that's a plus for me. Sticking with my first choice of Whilver for now.


----------



## Hamilton923 (Jan 16, 2014)

I am loving this iteration. In the "for what it's worth" dept., I rather like the polish on the case. I believe it adds to the structural architecture of the piece, making it that more distinctive. Well done on this design. Carry on...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> I think minds are going to be blown when they see it on the BoR bracelet.


That would blow my mind, since the bracelet isn't a BOR.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

59yukon01 said:


> If I read correctly and the bracelet is now a BOR that's a plus for me. Sticking with my first choice of Whilver for now.


You did read correctly, but he was wrong, so...no BOR.



Hamilton923 said:


> I am loving this iteration. In the "for what it's worth" dept., I rather like the polish on the case. I believe it adds to the structural architecture of the piece, making it that more distinctive. Well done on this design. Carry on...


Polish on the case - not going anywhere.

Polish on the bezel - I just bought some very fine-grit wet sandpaper, and plan to see how the bezel looks with a brushed finish sometime in the next few days.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

docvail said:


> That would blow my mind, since the bracelet isn't a BOR.


Wow. I'm clearly going utterly mad. I thought it was.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Wow... Thanks for that one. I wanted black and was wavering but that looks very nice.

If you happen to put a black strap on the blue dial I would love to see that. But I am seriywhen I say don't go through trouble of doing it specifically for my request.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I like the brushed idea. Polished would look much nicer but would show more crud like has been mentioned before.

What ever Doc chooses I'm sure he will not choose lightly. If anything, we know is very thorough and will weigh each detail carefully. Or maybe, he has too many Cider's and decides to just "Wing it"

Slainte......







Thanks for the close up idea...BWHAHA


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This is not a BOR.

Nor is it an engineer.

This is a unique new design, created by Aaron, Rusty, and me. Considering it's on the DevilRay, and the Devil Ray is a species of stingray, I suppose you could call it a stingray bracelet.

As it was semi-inspired by tank treads, I suppose you could also call it a tank tread bracelet.

If you wanted to give credit where it was due, you could call it an Aaron or Chris bracelet, but not a Rusty bracelet, for what ought to be punfully obvious reasons.

Oh, I got the bracelets today.


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content





























__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content




























All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Liking the ARC bracelet....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aside from spring bars, what other mechanisms are there for solidly/securely attaching a bracelet to a watch when the watch does NOT have drilled-though lugs, allowing for a solid screw-bar?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Liking the ARC bracelet....


Like the bezel's edge, the bracelet's links also have polished sides, which, again, I suppose is my factory's way of telling me I really do need to specify everything, because I'm not loving the polished finish any more than I'm loving the two hours it's taking me to securely attach one bracelet.

A king's ransom to whoever can make the spring bar once and forever truly obsolete.


----------



## iuam (Jun 12, 2017)

not to be an arse, but that bracelet reminds me of the one on my old tag 1500


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I'm really liking the tank tread bracelet. I am a bracelet guy and that is what I'll wear it on. I'm getting a blue. Waiting to preorder...


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

The ARC being polished would not do a good job hiding the odd scratch from trying to remove a pin I imagine. 

I am too much a noob to know of any other kind of fastener.

Is there any way to use some sort of sliding lock pin much like a quick removal strap with pin. It is hard to explain but only way I can think of is some sort of an action like a bolt action rifle, only thing would be a way of locking it in place.

IONO!?!?! I am a noob Canadian who knows roofing!!!!! and Wines..and Beers and lagers...and am a bit of a geek/nerd...who likes knives....and guns.....and da Bears..and.....YOU!!! lol


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



iuam said:


> not to be an arse, but that bracelet reminds me of the one on my old tag 1500
> 
> View attachment 12494327


It's okay, you can be an arse. Don't let anyone stop you.

They are similar, but not the same.

The widths of the Tag's bracelet's links go thickest-thinner-thinnest-thinner-thickest.

The DR's bracelet's links go thinner-thickest-thinnest-thickest-thinner.

The Tag's bracelet's links' adjoining edges go straight-angled-straight-angled-straight.

The DR's links go angled-angled-straight-angled-angled.

It appears that the 2nd and 4th links across on the Tag were once polished, whereas the 1st, 3rd, and 5th were brushed.

The DR only has one polished link - the center one, inspired by the DevilRay's tail.

The Tag's 1st and 5th links have gaps about as wide as the one in Arnold Schwarzenegger's grill.

The DR's links are water-tight by comparison.

I like our design better, but I encourage Tag to keep trying.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ojibway Bob said:


> The ARC being polished would not do a good job hiding the odd scratch from trying to remove a pin I imagine.
> 
> I am too much a noob to know of any other kind of fastener.
> 
> ...


The links are held together with screws, but after doing this a while, I think I personally prefer the folded split pins. Never had one of those back out on me, never had the tool for removing them scratch my links' sides, never slipped and drawn blood from a finger trying to get a split pin out, and never had anyone complain about not being able to get one out, unlike screws.

The problem with the spring bars isn't in their mechanism, per se. I know what you mean by quick-release spring bars. They're a feature on some straps, but that's not what's going on here.

The issue is this - in order to get a solid end-link (people like solid links) with a curved inner surface (and they like those too) to fit snugly with the case, the lug holes have to be drilled in a very precise location, so that when the spring bar is in place, it holds the link snug.

The problem - and drilled-through lugs really don't solve it - is that we're dealing with manufacturing tolerances which must, unavoidably, allow for a tiny bit of variation in the placement of those holes, and the space allotted for reaching the flanges on the ends of the spring bar is so small, and the trailing edge of the end-link so thin, that it can be very difficult to get a spring bar to seat correctly when the lug holes are off by even a hair.

I've occasionally been able to lever one end of a spring bar into position, so that it seats correctly, but doing that today actually bent the trailing end of the hole drilled in the end-link, causing it to bend outward, without moving the end of the bar one iota.

So far, I've only tried three of the bracelets against two of the watch heads, and only been able to get 5 of 8 spring bar ends successfully seated, so that there's no wobble in the end-link.

One, it's frustrating as hell to do this - I've bent the crap out of one side of at least three of the end-links, ruined one of the tips on one of my spring bar tools, and scratched the hell out of the back of the lugs on two watches.

Two, while this is something my factory's assemblers will be doing for me when we do the full production, this isn't something which we can simply brush off because these are protos, and say "it'll be fixed in production".

This isn't me, or my factory - this is how these things are made, period. No doubt in my mind, if we make 300-500 of these, some percentage of people are going to remove the bracelet to try some strap, then email me, angry that they can't get the damned bracelet back onto the case once it was removed.

Bending a spring bar MIGHT work, in a pinch, sometimes. It can also be futile, or weaken the integrity of the attachment.

I've used dental floss wrapped around a spring bar tip to pull the tip up into place, but that won't work when the bar end needs to move towards the case, rather than up into the hole. It's the one direction I can't seem to get the bar's end to move.

Drilled through lugs are "easier", and to the extent being drilled through with a single drill makes them more aligned with each other, they help, a little, but even drilled through holes can be slightly off center, so this can still happen with drilled lugs and bracelets.

Solid screw-bar attachment is great, but if you lose one, now you're screwed, and they're really only ideal when you've got a strap. If your lug holes and bracelet end-links aren't perfectly aligned, you can sit there fiddling with it all day, and not get anywhere.

We used a two-piece screw-tube for the Acionna lugs. I think the only reason it worked is because the link and the span between the lugs were both straight-across. And even there, we sometimes had to put a slight bend in a tube to get one to go all the way through, and I know at least one guy who got so frustrated trying to get one out he inextricably lodged a screwdriver in the lugs, destroying the watch in the process.

And there again, it required drilling the lugs all the way through, which is NOT possible with every case. If the position of the lug holes intersects any surface transition on the outside of the lugs, they can't (or perhaps won't) do it.

So...folded end-links, people hate. Straight-end-links on a round-case, lots of people hate. Gaps or rattle between the links and case, people would hate. All of those would solve the problem, but they're mostly unacceptable solutions.

Like I said, a king's ransom to whoever can figure out how to snugly and securely attach a solid, fitted end-link to a case without needing drilled-through lugs or using spring-bars.

These things are barbaric. There has to be a better way.


----------



## iuam (Jun 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> It's okay, you can be an arse. Don't let anyone stop you.


pretty much the response I expected



docvail said:


> They are similar, but not the same.


that's what I said.



docvail said:


> The widths of the Tag's bracelet's links go thickest-thinner-thinnest-thinner-thickest.
> 
> The DR's bracelet's links go thinner-thickest-thinnest-thickest-thinner.
> 
> ...


the differences are quite obvious. btw, that tag in the picture is almost 25 years old.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I can't tell for sure, but I think either the bracelet end-link was changed from how we had it designed, or it's the same, and they just drilled the holes in the wrong spot.

I'm not sure which it is, but I just sent an email to my factory about it and some of the other changes I want to be sure are put into place for the mass production.

Now that the bracelet is on, the bezel is hard to turn. Brushing the bezel's edge will help create some more grip friction, but the big problem is the link is in the way, which is part of why we wanted it recessed under the case surface, not flush with it.

Rusty's renders:

















My reality:

















Sigh...and people think this $hlt is easy...just dial up a factory, slap your logo on a catalog design, using off-the-shelf parts, and 1-2-3-Kickstarter your way to easy money.

If they only knew...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

iuam said:


> pretty much the response I expected
> 
> that's what I said.
> 
> the differences are quite obvious. btw, that tag in the picture is almost 25 years old.


Cool. Glad we're on the same page.

There's a guy on Facebook who's gone out of his way - twice - to tell me the DevilRay looks like the Crepas El Buzo.









Okay...I mean, sort of similar case shapes - from the front - and both have an orange dial, somewhat similar handset styles, and similar index shapes, but Aaron took the lead on the dial/handset design, whereas I drew the case - we worked independently, until the two came together. I'd never even heard of the El Buzo before that guy made it a point (twice) to make sure I knew of it (just like I'd never seen that Tag bracelet before).

At a certain point, I really can't tell who's trolling me, looking to provoke a response, and who's just hanging around, saying whatever comes to mind. After hearing "ripoff!" thrown around a few too many times, I can sometimes get sucked into spontaneous "all the ways they're different" list-building.

If we're going to accuse designers of stealing ideas from somewhere every time they do anything, we're going to end up with nothing but really original, really ugly $hlt. Maybe we can allow for some similarities for aesthetics' sake, and not get our shorts in so tight a knot about who did what first and what degree of homaging is going on.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

Everything looks like something else. Happens when people have been on the same planet for more than a couple of years.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

docvail said:


> It truly is terrible. Now excuse me while I go knock down some kid's sand castle.
> 
> I guess I'm past the point of trying to provide the precise words which will satisfy people too stupid/lazy to look at the pics before they buy one.
> 
> ...


That color looks like platinum to me.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

No, it's more like adamantium or mithril.



CDawson said:


> That color looks like platinum to me.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Tanjecterly said:


> No, it's more like adamantium or mithril.


I was thinking the dull side of aluminum foil...

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Like the bezel's edge, the bracelet's links also have polished sides, which, again, I suppose is my factory's way of telling me I really do need to specify everything, because I'm not loving the polished finish any more than I'm loving the two hours it's taking me to securely attach one bracelet.
> 
> A king's ransom to whoever can make the spring bar once and forever truly obsolete.


Maybe your factory is trying to match the sides of the bracelet with the sides of the case where it's got that strip of polished finish?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> I was thinking the dull side of aluminum foil...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Maybe your factory is trying to match the sides of the bracelet with the sides of the case where it's got that strip of polished finish?


That is one explanation, assuming they told the bracelet vendor to make the sides polished, for that reason.

It's also possible they just assumed they knew what I wanted.

They didn't.

Another explanation is that they didn't specify it, and the bracelet vendor just did it, rather than doing what I would have done, which is to ask, "hey, guys, how does the customer want it?"

Nope, that would have made too much sense.

There's no end to the little things I find get done wrong because it never occurred to me that they'd be done some way other than how I wanted them, and that nobody would bother to ask me, if I failed to specify.

Ever bought a StrapCode bracelet? Their sides are polished. I suspect it's one of those things Asians think westerners like, just like they think we're all enormous men with 10"-12" wrists who smell like cheese.

None of that is funny, by the way. They routinely make their bracelets 10"-12", both in their renders and in real life, and I've been told they think we all (well, at least all us Americans) smell like cheese.

My firm opinion is that when it comes to polished surfaces, a little bit goes a looooooonnnnngggggg way. My usual mix is like 80%-90% brushed, 10%-20% polished. On curved case surfaces, or angular facets, it looks good. On flat surfaces, it looks like a bad chrome job.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...after futzing around with the bracelets for 2+ hours, I'm now putting the straps I had on the watches back on them, because I don't like how the end-links fit.

I think Seiko makes their dive watch straps out of a hybrid of silicone and honey-badger hide. I want this strap to conform to my wrist shape, but just like a honey-badger, it gives zero f**ks, and insists it won't bend any further than required to fit a coffee can.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

At the risk of sounding like "I have an idea" if you are indeed looking for a "better" spring bar attachment method.

You know where to find me. Well unless Irma has other ideas.



docvail said:


> So...after futzing around with the bracelets for 2+ hours, I'm now putting the straps I had on the watches back on them, because I don't like how the end-links fit.
> 
> I think Seiko makes their dive watch straps out of a hybrid of silicone and honey-badger hide. I want this strap to conform to my wrist shape, but just like a honey-badger, it gives zero f**ks, and insists it won't bend any further than required to fit a coffee can.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Ever bought a StrapCode bracelet? Their sides are polished. I suspect it's one of those things Asians think westerners like, just like they think we're all enormous men with 10"-12" wrists who smell like cheese.
> 
> None of that is funny, by the way. They routinely make their bracelets 10"-12", both in their renders and in real life, and I've been told they think we all (well, at least all us Americans) smell like cheese.
> 
> My firm opinion is that when it comes to polished surfaces, a little bit goes a looooooonnnnngggggg way. My usual mix is like 80%-90% brushed, 10%-20% polished. On curved case surfaces, or angular facets, it looks good. On flat surfaces, it looks like a bad chrome job.


agree with all of this


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> So...after futzing around with the bracelets for 2+ hours, I'm now putting the straps I had on the watches back on them, because I don't like how the end-links fit.
> 
> I think Seiko makes their dive watch straps out of a hybrid of silicone and honey-badger hide. I want this strap to conform to my wrist shape, but just like a honey-badger, it gives zero f**ks, and insists it won't bend any further than required to fit a coffee can.


The new straps on the new Seiko Samurai reissue is super buttery soft. They are just too big for me. I should have mailed it to you cuz I'm not using it lol

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## 59yukon01 (Aug 27, 2014)

Personally for me as that's how I'd wear it, I see this as a rubber strap or nato watch. So any option to buy it that way would be welcome.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Aside from spring bars, what other mechanisms are there for solidly/securely attaching a bracelet to a watch when the watch does NOT have drilled-though lugs, allowing for a solid screw-bar?


Are quick-release spring bars (QRsb) possible in a bracelet somehow? Because for leather straps, honestly, upgrading my strap selection to QRsb-equipped ones is probably the best thing I've done. So much more easy and nice to do strap changes now - no more scratching lug undersides, poking a hole in hand when toolbar slips...

Something like that for bracelets would be awesome. 
Or, if not a springbar, then a spring-loaded latch system - thing something like doorlocks, the triangle bit that lets you close the door normally but needs a handle-twist to open. A slot in each lug and the spring-loaded triangle protrusions in the bracelet...

Wrt polish: yeeeah imo you should remove some of the polished parts on the devilray. As-is, it looks WAY more shiny than any Sub, and yet the Subs - designwise - are the dressier of the two, with the devilray being much more 'tool' (or, if you will, a Jacques-Cousteau-boat-tool) aesthetic... But when the bezel and the bracelet's blinging at you, it's... not such a good look, imo.

Imo, what really makes the Sub case work is that single polished outline around the side edges. It's small, so it underlines the shape and the edges, instead of emphasizing a large flat surface. With Devilray, you have a lot of emphasis on the flat surfaces and a lot less emphasis on the edges.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Are quick-release spring bars (QRsb) possible in a bracelet somehow? Because for leather straps, honestly, upgrading my strap selection to QRsb-equipped ones is probably the best thing I've done. So much more easy and nice to do strap changes now - no more scratching lug undersides, poking a hole in hand when toolbar slips...
> 
> Something like that for bracelets would be awesome.
> Or, if not a springbar, then a spring-loaded latch system - thing something like doorlocks, the triangle bit that lets you close the door normally but needs a handle-twist to open. A slot in each lug and the spring-loaded triangle protrusions in the bracelet...
> ...


I don't know if they're possible. It would be great if there was something to that would effectively accomplish the same outcome, but we'd still be faced with the same essential challenge. What if the lug holes and the hole in the end link are out of alignment?

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I love the smell of new prototype in the morning.



















All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Love it, now mix in a little vanilla.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> I love the smell of new prototype in the morning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And goddammit, that train's late again - well, according to _this_ watch it is.........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> I don't know if they're possible. It would be great if there was something to that would effectively accomplish the same outcome, but we'd still be faced with the same essential challenge. What if the lug holes and the hole in the end link are out of alignment?
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


An extreme solution to case snugness would be to add an extra dimension of movement. You could have a slot cut through the end link with springs that push the bar away from the watch. Couple that with a quick release style slider (but perpendicular to the normal alignment) in the bottom of the link and you could mount the end link loose and let it spring onto the case. You could even make a little latch so that you can lock it into the loose position for mounting and release. It's an awful lot of extra engineering though.

Thinking about just the mounting difficulty, why don't spring bars have tapered ends? That would allow them to get into the hole in the lug without perfect alignment. To avoid force on the strap driving them out again you'd need to be careful with the exact profile (i.e. not just a cone) but it would use the spring that's already there to tighten things up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

You could use a setup with two springbars, with each hole in the end link allowing for play in a different direction (horizontal and vertical). Basically how the holes are often positioned in something you'd screw to your wall at home.

Edit: or you instead of the second spring bar, that play in one direction could also be accomplished by the shape of the endlink itself, fitting like a jigsaw puzzle between the lugs

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

I'd say drilled lugs and they get drilled with the bracelet (end piece undrilled until then) in place.
That way you're sure everything aligns. Add a latching spring bar and Bob's your uncle...

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pakz said:


> I'd say drilled lugs and they get drilled with the bracelet (end piece undrilled until then) in place.
> That way you're sure everything aligns. Add a latching spring bar and Bob's your uncle...
> 
> Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


This raises an aspect I wasn't sure if people were clear about.

The case and links are currently drilled separately, whether they're drilled through or not.

Drilling them straight through together would be one way to ensure good alignment, but it would also potentially make each end link incompatible with another case, or even the lugs on the other side of the same case. You'd still want to place that hole as precisely and consistently as possible, to maximize interchangeability.

It would also require there to be no surface transitions where the hole would appear on the outside of the case, and force some other design constraints on us, but I could live with that, I think.

Part of the trouble here is the short lug length. I didn't give the...uhm...hole drill guys a lot of space in which to work.

The extra-dimensionally traveling latching spring bar is an interesting idea, the theoretical implications and potential space-time rifts notwithstanding.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Crude drawing to illustrate my previous post. Wedge shape could also be any other locking shape of course, a simple notch would do the trick as well.









Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Got a bit more creative. What about changing the direction of the spring bars?
That way there's no issue of aligning holes on either side, but you'd require a locking shape of your end link.
I drew 2 spring bars, but I suppose one would do as well if the shape of the endlink is restricting movement enough.









Edit: i suppose if you'd reverse the shape in the top cross section so you'd insert the endlink from the top side, you'd also move all load off the springbar to the lugs and case. minimizing the risk of a failing springbar.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

A small random idea: if the goal is to make bracelet swaps easier, wouldn't it help to increase the size of the bottom cutouts so that ppl can access the springbar end more easily? As-is, on nearly all bracelets I've tried, there's such a tiny pidgeonhole to get to the springbar that I can barely see anything, let alone get some wiggle-room above/below to 'push' the springbar in place.


Btw doc - that shot of the silver-dial with seiko-style black dive rubber strap, that looks great.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Couple things I have had to do on a few cases that were tight.
Round the end of the springs bars slightly.
For lack of a better word countersink the hole in the case slightly creating a bowl to guide the springbar to center.

I think the issue is that the spring bar it the weak link. They tend to be very cheaply made / mass produced.

I wonder if the end of the springbar were more tapered or cone shaped and the hole in the case the opposite shape if that would allow for some degree of variation and yet still pull the case and link together naturally. This is a trick we use in my other hobby.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Wouldn't a round-tipped springbar also be likely to pop out when pulled?

That was the bracelet locking system on the Damasko bracelet clasp, two round-tipped ceramic beads on each side, most likely springloaded.. And yeah they held pretty well, but still, on pulling, they do come open. Same thing with round-tipped springbars no?


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Yes, a round end where only the round part engages the case hole is bad and will pull out. You want the end well past the hole so the sides of the springbar are engaged. On mine the squared off blunt end always seems to stick at the edge of the hole never allowing shoulder engagement. A quick hit with a key file and the taper / chamfered / beveled end no longer sticks.



X2-Elijah said:


> Wouldn't a round-tipped springbar also be likely to pop out when pulled?
> 
> That was the bracelet locking system on the Damasko bracelet clasp, two round-tipped ceramic beads on each side, most likely springloaded.. And yeah they held pretty well, but still, on pulling, they do come open. Same thing with round-tipped springbars no?
> 
> View attachment 12495307


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



CMA22inc said:


> I wonder if the end of the springbar were more tapered or cone shaped and the hole in the case the opposite shape if that would allow for some degree of variation and yet still pull the case and link together naturally. This is a trick we use in my other hobby.


I want to come up with a funny suggestion of a hobby which entails making cone-shaped holes in things, but I got nuthin'.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Karkarov said:


> But you are all mistaken. The US is made of a burger, sitting on top of a pizza, on top of a stack of pancakes, which sits on a rack of ribs, resting upon a plate of waffles with whipped cream and strawberries.


Dude. 
The universe is waffles all the way down.

Sent from my iPhone using an IBM Selectric ]|[


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Just sitting on the train, heading up to the Niantic, CT, GTG, wearing the DevilRay prototype.



















I dozed off and on from Philly to NY, which is where all the people sitting quietly in my car were replaced by all new, not quiet people.

Baby across the aisle is screaming.

Guy next to me is playing Spanish language videos on his phone, on speaker, at full volume.

¿En serio ahora mismo?

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Rusty bracelet for the win!


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Capucho idea to make bracelets easier to fit; Loctite the [email protected] into place.

Patent pending.

Ric


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

Wow impressed with how much better they look in real pics, specially the black one and really like the hands. The case has presence but doesnt look big on the wrist at all.

Even nbc executive jack donaghy was so impressed it gave them an omfg


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Btw doc - that shot of the silver-dial with seiko-style black dive rubber strap, that looks great.


I believe we're calling that platinum...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Incorrect. It's the dull side of aluminum foil. Aluminum dull or dull Aluminum. However you care to call it.



CDawson said:


> I believe we're calling that platinum...


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> Incorrect. It's the dull side of aluminum foil. Aluminum dull or dull Aluminum. However you care to call it.


 I call it platinum.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

It's like the old saying, Chris: Measure twice, cut once. Measure once, cut twice...

Quit *****ing at us and tell your factory to read the damn directions.

Can we get back to debating whether that one dial is grey or gray?


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

Tanjecterly said:


> Incorrect. It's the dull side of aluminum foil. Aluminum dull or dull Aluminum. However you care to call it.


how about dullium? Could be the next rhodium


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

Nthium?


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

docvail said:


>


I'm starting to warm up to this. I'm assuming it would wear smaller than the Seiko turtles?

Long time lurker first time poster (on this thread).


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

R.A.D. said:


> Wow impressed with how much better they look in real pics, specially the black one and really like the hands. The case has presence but doesnt look big on the wrist at all.
> 
> Even nbc executive jack donaghy was so impressed it gave them an omfg


Is there a thread with pics of the dive watch gtg?

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

househalfman said:


> I'm starting to warm up to this. I'm assuming it would wear smaller than the Seiko turtles?
> 
> Long time lurker first time poster (on this thread).


I dunno, but I'd think so.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


> Is there a thread with pics of the dive watch gtg?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


I dunno.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

The color is whilver.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Think I am back on the Blue


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Like the bezel's edge, the bracelet's links also have polished sides, which, again, I suppose is my factory's way of telling me I really do need to specify everything, because I'm not loving the polished finish any more than I'm loving the two hours it's taking me to securely attach one bracelet.
> 
> A king's ransom to whoever can make the spring bar once and forever truly obsolete.


Milanese bracelet, and straight like a strap, but bracelets with QR do exist. Something with solid end links fitted to the case though, I don't think I've seen that done with QR.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> The color is whilver.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Insert Mr. Ed clip here.


----------



## 59yukon01 (Aug 27, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



rpm1974 said:


> The color is whilver.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You "homaged" my word for the color from a couple of days ago.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=44057031


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Better image of the whilver from yesterday.

I want to noodle on some of these bracelet/spring bar ideas some more. Thanks for all of them.










All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

whilver is quickly becoming my favorite...until doc starts posting more black...and then more blue. Going to be a tough decision for sure. I like the less stark transition from dial to chapter ring and it seems to make the depth ring pop more. The color was one of the big draws for me on this design.


----------



## Sillygoose (Mar 5, 2017)

The DevilRay looks great! Any chance we can get pictures of it on a smaller wrist, say 6" or so? 😀

- Tappy Talkied


----------



## footie (Nov 12, 2013)

Whatever happens, please for the love of god do not duplicate the Hamilton Pan Europ curved spring bar debacle. There was some talk of "curved" in this thread and I just want to put in like 10 million votes against going down that road.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sillygoose said:


> The DevilRay looks great! Any chance we can get pictures of it on a smaller wrist, say 6" or so? 
> 
> - Tappy Talkied


I don't think my new diet and exercise plan is going to get me down to a 6" wrist before we start pre-orders.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

footie said:


> Whatever happens, please for the love of god do not duplicate the Hamilton Pan Europ curved spring bar debacle. There was some talk of "curved" in this thread and I just want to put in like 10 million votes against going down that road.


I remember that one had curved spring bars, but I don't remember anything about whatever fallout there was over it.

It's going to take me a couple of days of back-and-forth with my guy at the factory to hash out the end-links and figure out what to do.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> I don't think my new diet and exercise plan is going to get me down to a 6" wrist before we start pre-orders.


Just think of the shapely hourglass figure your wrist could have if you just sized and worked on your new wrist girdle.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I got a reply back from my guy at the factory, to which I just responded. Here's an update:

1. *We're going to do vertical brushing on the bezel's edge*, with a bit of blasting to get the finish all the way into the tight corners of the saw-teeth.

2. There was some confusion - apparently all mine - *regarding the frame around the date windows. 
*
We looked at putting a metallic frame around the windows, a printed frame, or no frame at all. I didn't like the metallic frame, because it protruded too far into the center of the dial, and took up too much real estate.

The "problem" with the printed frame around the window is that the gray quarter-pipe minute track has cut-outs for the hour markers, and it would overlap the frame, which would no doubt drive the more OCD-riddled WIS bonkers:









We talked about making two versions of that minute track, one of them with a wider cut-out at 6, but beside the fact that it would increase costs, we were concerned about assembly errors.

I thought that I'd basically said, "screw the OCD WIS, it's fine that the track overlaps the frame a smidge, so let's print the frames and run with the same minute track on all of them", but apparently (and the confirmed this by showing me the email I'd sent about it), I said, "I was thinking that it would be too complicated to make two sets of applied layers. So, let's just make one set, but not print the frame around the date window."

*So...there will not be a frame around the date window. No change there.*

*3. The sides of the bracelet links will be horizontally brushed.* Easy fix.

*4. The end-links...*

Astonishingly, they were surprised I had such a hard time getting the end links on. They say they tried a few pieces there, and had no problem.

If that's the case, then I'm surprised they didn't notice the bezel becomes nearly impossible to turn once the end-links are on, but that's a fight I don't need to make at this point.

I asked what tools and techniques they were using, just for general knowledge, in case I've been doing it all wrong. Stranger things have happened.

From their further comments about the end-link, it's not yet clear to me whether or not the end-link was changed from what we designed originally, in order to make its surface match the case surface, or if they just drilled the holes in the end-links in a location to effect the same result.

Either way, I'm not yet sure what the fix will be, or how long it will take. I'm waiting on a response to those questions, which I'll hopefully have tonight. I'm sure it won't be curved spring bars, in any event.

*In other DevilRay news...*

I was honestly expecting the DevilRay to wear bigger than it does, so I measured its dimensions.

My calipers confirm the lug length is 46mm, as expected, and the bezel diameter is just a hair less than the 40mm we designed it to be. My assumption is that it was shrunk down in order to get the clearance needed for it to be recessed into the case.

I can't get the calipers into the right position to confirm the case width, due to the crown, but as close as I can get them, my best assessment is that it's 43mm, also as it was designed (they showed 42.5mm right next to the crown, where the case is slightly thinner).

You all know I like thin when it comes to case thickness. I think we (that's Rusty and I) were originally trying to get the case to be no more than 13.5mm thick, based on our rough understanding/estimates regarding the thickness of the components and necessary clearances, but we were willing to accept 14mm, and happy enough when the engineering drawing showed the case was 14.02mm.

According to my calipers, and my watchmaker's, this case is 13.5mm thick, just 0.5mm thicker than the Orthos, which has 200m less water resistance.

I have no idea how thin that is for a 500m WR diving watch, but it definitely doesn't feel like an overly-chunky wrist-brick while wearing it. It seemed like everyone at yesterday's GTG liked how they wear, regardless of wrist size.

If you shy away from anything over 42mm, I wouldn't be too concerned about these. They don't wear huge.

If you shy away from anything under 44mm, I wish I could tell you this is your chunky monkey, but I can't. The best I can say is that it's a solid piece, with good heft, and lots of "wrist presence", and it ought to be wearable, even on a bigger wrist, but I understand if you've got visions of "fat guy in a little coat" taunts keeping you from buying one.

There's always the 44mm x 48mm x 14mm Spectre II, now on a bracelet. If that's still too small for you, you need to lose some lb's, Gigantor.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Informative and interesting as usual, Doc!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

So I have one of your L&H's, albeit I modded it up heavily, anyway I'm very interested in getting in on one of these, so keep me on a list. I'm up for a blue or an orange. On the fence with whilver. Cheers!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> So I have one of your L&H's, albeit I modded it up heavily, anyway I'm very interested in getting in on one of these, so keep me on a list. I'm up for a blue or an orange. On the fence with whilver. Cheers!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Mods must be photographed and pics posted or they Did. Not. Happen.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Mods must be photographed and pics posted or they Did. Not. Happen.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh you are so correct sir!! I really hate being called out like this as I can barely contain my enthusiasm to show off a little bit!!


























So basically I used an H3 case with a display back and placed a top grade and decorated eta 2824-2 in it with the blue L&H dial with some nice hands and a yellow seconds for a little color pop. A Miltat PVD bracelet and we are done here. As I said heavily modded!!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> Oh you are so correct sir!! I really hate being called out like this as I can barely contain my enthusiasm to show off a little bit!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's great! Howd you get date wheel to align? NH35 and 2824 the same for date wheels?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> So I have one of your L&H's, albeit I modded it up heavily, anyway I'm very interested in getting in on one of these, so keep me on a list. I'm up for a blue or an orange. On the fence with whilver. Cheers!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I don't know if you've seen me say I don't make or keep lists, and you're making a joke about it, or if you think I make and keep lists, and I need to once again make clear my complete lack of list maintenance.

There's no list. Subscribe to the email newsletter, and/or follow the brand on social medial. There's zero chance you'll miss the announcement when we set the pre-order date.

Just like there's zero chance I'll start keeping lists of people who tell me they plan to buy something.

Lists.

Why do people think I keep lists? Who runs a business that way?

While I'm at it, why do people ask if I have any updates? When have I ever held out on you guys? If anything, I'm constantly over-sharing.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> That's great! Howd you get date wheel to align? NH35 and 2824 the same for date wheels?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's off ever so much to the left of the window, in the middle teens of the month I can barely see the one (1) in the window, but over all not that much to complain about. I love this piece as it made the barking dog blue dial a lot more menacing than every other stainless steel case and bracelet. Now it howls at the moon. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

https://media.giphy.com/media/8c2gbqyv9BNde/200w.gif

So noted

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> That's great! Howd you get date wheel to align? NH35 and 2824 the same for date wheels?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They are not. They're slightly different. I think the date on that mod is not centered in the window?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> They are not. They're slightly different. I think the date on that mod is not centered in the window?


And you are correct. As I noted in my earlier response the date is cheated to the left of the window. It works for me. Others may not like it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Well good for you, hope you stay strong and keep at it. Make your stubbornness be your strength!!

It took me over 10 years to want to lose weight but only 4 1/2 months to actually do it. I just wish I would have actually do it sooner but the hardest thing I found, was to stay strong even thou after a month I did not see any results. Stubbornness will guide you and if it helps a bunch of WISers pointing and laughing hahah. If I remember I thought I saw you say somewhere you lost 5lbs so far. Anyways enough of this wussy ****e and let's see more Bluquoise plix!!!



docvail said:


> I don't think my new diet and exercise plan is going to get me down to a 6" wrist before we start pre-orders.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> That's great! Howd you get date wheel to align? NH35 and 2824 the same for date wheels?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk












A trio of some of the other builds in case you are interested.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> So I have one of your L&H's, albeit I modded it up heavily, anyway I'm very interested in getting in on one of these, so keep me on a list. I'm up for a blue or an orange. On the fence with whilver. Cheers!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





Rhorya said:


> Oh you are so correct sir!! I really hate being called out like this as I can barely contain my enthusiasm to show off a little bit!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


cool watch and nice work! But if I understand your description correctly, the only thing L&H about the watch is the dial? I mod and I know these lines get blury at a point but I think for it to be a modded whatever you need the movement or the case to belong to the watch you are citing as your mod. Like i have a seiko skx that I have a monster dial in. Its an SKX mod with a monster dial, not a monster mod with an SKX case. kind of an arbitrary distinction I guess. That dial looks very good in a black case, good call there.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



idvsego said:


> cool watch and nice work! But if I understand your description correctly, the only thing L&H about the watch is the dial? I mod and I know these lines get blury at a point but I think for it to be a modded whatever you need the movement or the case to belong to the watch you are citing as your mod. Like i have a seiko skx that I have a monster dial in. Its an SKX mod with a monster dial, not a monster mod with an SKX case. kind of an arbitrary distinction I guess. That dial looks very good in a black case, good call there.


Hey I did say heavily modded. And I draw lines with crayons so there is a wide definition to be sure!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> Hey I did say heavily modded. And I draw lines with crayons so there is a wide definition to be sure!!
> 
> You bring up a good point though, what truly defines any watch? I think the dial. When we find a sterile dial it is without the defining logo. Some watches can be defined by the case but many watches, divers especially use the same case. The movement enhances the watch, and that opens up a whole other discussion on the impact a movement has on a watch. Obviously using an NH35 or a Miyota 9015 establishes a price point for a good reliable affordable watch. You could step it up and go for a Sellita or eta and that not only sets a higher price point but raises the bar on the entire perceived value of the watch. While I prefer to build only using eta or sw movements I appreciate a good design like anybody and it doesn't matter the movement. If after I own a watch design for a while I feel like playing with it then the mod door opens.
> 
> ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

lol...with crayons, I like it.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I don't know if you've seen me say I don't make or keep lists, and you're making a joke about it, of if you think I make and keep lists, and I need to once again make clear my complete lack of list maintenance.
> 
> There's no list. Subscribe to the email newsletter, and/or follow the brand on social medial. There's zero chance you'll miss the announcement when we set the pre-order date.
> 
> ...


Add me to the list of people that now know you don't keep lists.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Like I said, a king's ransom to whoever can figure out how to snugly and securely attach a solid, fitted end-link to a case without needing drilled-through lugs or using spring-bars.


This made me think of an off-the-wall thought that might spark something (or not). One watch I saw had their bracelet fit their lugs in a custom method, but then offered a small adapter for each set of lugs that would accommodate a regular bracelet. The intention was: their bracelet connected however they needed it to; but provided a way to use any bracelet via spring-bars if you wanted to. Please, no poison darts for tossing out this thought...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Better image of the whilver from yesterday.
> 
> I want to noodle on some of these bracelet/spring bar ideas some more. Thanks for all of them.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


I'd actually be really curious to see the DR on a Milanese, I think it might work with the look of the watch very well.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I didn't like the metallic frame, because it protruded too far into the center of the dial, and took up too much real estate.


Good call. The metallic frame on Monta's watch is one of several issues I have with the design of that watch. It looks WAY too big.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



idvsego said:


> cool watch and nice work! But if I understand your description correctly, the only thing L&H about the watch is the dial? I mod and I know these lines get blury at a point but I think for it to be a modded whatever you need the movement or the case to belong to the watch you are citing as your mod. Like i have a seiko skx that I have a monster dial in. Its an SKX mod with a monster dial, not a monster mod with an SKX case. kind of an arbitrary distinction I guess. That dial looks very good in a black case, good call there.


Agreed. Modded Monsters are modded Monsters. Modded SKXes with Monster dials are modded SKXes. I do wholly support name blending however. Seiko Bay, SOXA, or in my case, the SKAlpinist, which is my SKX with a SARB059 dial and hand set.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Agreed. Modded Monsters are modded Monsters. Modded SKXes with Monster dials are modded SKXes. I do wholly support name blending however. Seiko Bay, SOXA, or in my case, the SKAlpinist, which is my SKX with a SARB059 dial and hand set.
> 
> View attachment 12499575


Saw that mod on another forum. I need that dial. If you have a source, PM me please. I like modding seiko with other OEM seiko dials.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Agreed. Modded Monsters are modded Monsters. Modded SKXes with Monster dials are modded SKXes. I do wholly support name blending however. Seiko Bay, SOXA, or in my case, the SKAlpinist, which is my SKX with a SARB059 dial and hand set.
> 
> View attachment 12499575


Now that's a cool mod!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I believe this is how you can get a G-Shock on a strap. I read somewhere recently that there is an adapter available for it.



fearlessleader said:


> This made me think of an off-the-wall thought that might spark something (or not). One watch I saw had their bracelet fit their lugs in a custom method, but then offered a small adapter for each set of lugs that would accommodate a regular bracelet. The intention was: their bracelet connected however they needed it to; but provided a way to use any bracelet via spring-bars if you wanted to. Please, no poison darts for tossing out this thought...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'd actually be really curious to see the DR on a Milanese, I think it might work with the look of the watch very well.


Over my rotting corpse.


----------



## footie (Nov 12, 2013)

docvail said:


> I remember that one had curved spring bars, but I don't remember anything about whatever fallout there was over it.
> 
> It's going to take me a couple of days of back-and-forth with my guy at the factory to hash out the end-links and figure out what to do.


For the Hammy PE, essentially there is one Vollmer bracelet that will fit (Milanese, Doc), no other mesh will even work, and I don't really appreciate the quality of the Vollmer. You're left with certain leather or nato, most rubber doesn't work. I can barely get the OEM Nato from Hamilton that was supposedly made for the watch to go on because of how tight the lug holes are to the case. The end result is I have bought, sold, bought, sold, and bought that watch again - love the watch, but the curved spring bars make it a real pain in the ass. I only offer it up as an example of how not to solve the issue. Just my opinion - if others are like me they like lots of strap options.


----------



## 59yukon01 (Aug 27, 2014)

I still vote for a rubber or Nato option. Not interested in the look of the bracelet on this one, so it would never be worn. It's too Super Engineerish looking for me, and I never liked that bracelet. Also on a 22mm bracelet I've found anything less than an 18mm taper at the clasp on me feels like I have shackles on.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

footie said:


> For the Hammy PE, essentially there is one Vollmer bracelet that will fit (Milanese, Doc), no other mesh will even work, and I don't really appreciate the quality of the Vollmer. You're left with certain leather or nato, most rubber doesn't work. I can barely get the OEM Nato from Hamilton that was supposedly made for the watch to go on because of how tight the lug holes are to the case. The end result is I have bought, sold, bought, sold, and bought that watch again - love the watch, but the curved spring bars make it a real pain in the ass. I only offer it up as an example of how not to solve the issue. Just my opinion - if others are like me they like lots of strap options.


I think the curved spring bar was forced by really, really short lugs. I've measured the distance between the lug holes and the end of the lugs on a few watches, and found they're almost always the same distance. I forget if it's 0.5mm or 1mm (I think 1mm), but if that's the minimum distance needed, and the lugs are so short that the curve of the case would interrupt a line drawn from one hole to the other, then you'd have to curve the bar to get around the case.



59yukon01 said:


> I still vote for a rubber or Nato option. Not interested in the look of the bracelet on this one, so it would never be worn. It's too Super Engineerish looking for me, and I never liked that bracelet. Also on a 22mm bracelet I've found anything less than an 18mm taper at the clasp on me feels like I have shackles on.


I saw the first comment about it, in case my non-response left you wondering, "did he see it?"

There's no vote. This isn't a democracy.

This is sort of like the "for $____, I want more than a Seiko NH35 or Miyota 9015 in it" sentiment. At a certain price, people just expect a bracelet, so I have to make the bracelets, and there's an MOQ on them, basically the same as the MOQ on the cases.

Even if I could make it available without a bracelet, I'd have to find the perfect strap for it, or people will complain about it.

When I run out of the strap version, I'll have people emailing me to ask if I'll remove the bracelet and sell it for less. If I run out of the bracelet option, I'll have people emailing me to ask if I have any more bracelets for sale. I'll have people complaining about the price difference between the strap and the bracelet versions - it's too much, it's not enough, etc.

I'll have people who bought the strap version emailing me to ask if the bracelet will fit (because the lugs holes may be in a different spot), because they found one for sale with the bracelet, but it's not the dial color they want, so they want to buy the watch, to get the bracelet, and sell the watch they don't want on the strap they have.

I'll have people emailing me to complain that the lug length is too short to fit the $100 leather strap they had made for it, and ask why I don't make a version with longer lugs (because I get nonsensical, stupid questions like that - all. the. time.).

I'll have people who email me to ask if this aftermarket bracelet will fit, or if that aftermarket bracelet will fit.

I'll never hear the end of it.

If I offer more than one strap option, each option doubles the number of SKUs. With four dial colors, each available with or without a date window, I've already got 8 SKUs. Making the strap/bracelet optional makes it 16 SKUs. More than one strap option? 24 SKUs, 32 SKUs, 40 SKUs, etc, with each strap option I add.

With every SKU I add, it creates a lot of extra work for me, and takes up a lot of my time to set each SKU up in my website, in the warehouse's system, dealing with tracking available inventory for resellers, etc.

It adds A LOT of expensive photography (I pay about $100 per professional image). I'll have people emailing me to ask if I have a lume-shot of the watch, not on the bracelet, but on the strap (because I get ridiculous, stupid requests like that, all. the. time.).

That doesn't get into the assembly issues (the potential of getting the wrong count on the added SKUs), and the complications involved in trying to drill the lug holes in the ideal place to accommodate both a strap and a bracelet, or drilling two sets of lug holes, if that's even possible with how short the lugs are.

Please understand - I'm not looking for suggestions about how I ought to configure my product for sale. I'm sure as $hlt never putting it to a vote.

I so don't need that sort of added complication in my life. It's hard enough just to get from design (started on January 3rd of this year) to delivery (won't happen until March/April next year, at the earliest), thanks to all the details I have to personally manage just to get this thing over the finish line.

You'll be able to buy it on any strap you want, so long as it's the bracelet.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> It adds A LOT of expensive photography (I pay about $100 per professional image). I'll have people emailing me to ask if I have a lume-shot of the watch, not on the bracelet, but on the strap (because I get ridiculous, stupid requests like that, all. the. time.).


Can you take some comparison shots of the lume in a cave versus a closet and in the trunk of a car? Preferably on a Milanese mesh. Thanks.


----------



## 59yukon01 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> I think the curved spring bar was forced by really, really short lugs. I've measured the distance between the lug holes and the end of the lugs on a few watches, and found they're almost always the same distance. I forget if it's 0.5mm or 1mm (I think 1mm), but if that's the minimum distance needed, and the lugs are so short that the curve of the case would interrupt a line drawn from one hole to the other, then you'd have to curve the bar to get around the case.
> 
> I saw the first comment about it, in case my non-response left you wondering, "did he see it?"
> 
> ...


The word vote was incorrect on my part, as I should have replaced it with hope, so a simple not an option would have worked.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

59yukon01 said:


> The word vote was incorrect on my part, as I should have replaced it with hope, so a simple not an option would have worked.


Not even under consideration.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## ShoreFire77 (Apr 27, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'd actually be really curious to see the DR on a Milanese, I think it might work with the look of the watch very well.





docvail said:


> Over my rotting corpse.











Sorry.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

ohhh the Whilver shark fighter!!!



ks6177 said:


> View attachment 12500489
> 
> 
> Sorry.


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

docvail said:


> I think the curved spring bar was forced by really, really short lugs. I've measured the distance between the lug holes and the end of the lugs on a few watches, and found they're almost always the same distance. I forget if it's 0.5mm or 1mm (I think 1mm), but if that's the minimum distance needed, and the lugs are so short that the curve of the case would interrupt a line drawn from one hole to the other, then you'd have to curve the bar to get around the case.
> 
> I saw the first comment about it, in case my non-response left you wondering, "did he see it?"
> 
> ...


Now I'm confused.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

59yukon01 said:


> ... a simple not an option would have worked.


Says the guy who quoted the entire, unfortunate wall of text...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

If Chris finds a way to monetize walls of text, he can start giving the watches away.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

uvalaw2005 said:


> If Chris finds a way to monetize walls of text, he can start giving the watches away.


I did not even realize watches where being sold on the side until well into his text wall career.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ks6177 said:


> View attachment 12500489
> 
> 
> Sorry.


Dem photoshop skillz, doe!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Says the guy who quoted the entire, unfortunate wall of text...


Screw you...



uvalaw2005 said:


> If Chris finds a way to monetize walls of text, he can start giving the watches away.


And you...



mplsabdullah said:


> I did not even realize watches where being sold on the side until well into his text wall career.


And also, you.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

It's about time you let us see one on mesh...I prefer shark









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You all realize I used to give short answers, yes?

But then people asked follow-up questions, or wanted to debate further, offer alternative ideas, etc.

Now I'm just "cutting out the middleman" by giving you the 100% complete and total answer, to include all alternatives and the answers to all follow-up questions, in my first response.

Yer welcome.

Don't want the complete answer? Don't ask the question, or make me feel pressured to respond by mentioning something repeatedly. Odds are good I saw the first mention, and am deliberately avoiding responding.

Deep in the weeds is where I live, boys. Deep. In. The. Weeds. Y'all want to visit, don't bltch about the hike getting there.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Chris,

I have to say your parcel tracking and delivery is very good. It took no time at all to cross the Atlantic. However, as far as the UK is concerned you might as well not bother hurrying, as our Customs people have only just released my Bloody Barracuda from a grim concrete depot in some godawful part of the Midlands (I'm imagining all of that, apart from the Midlands bit, think Detroit but with comedy accents).

When it arrives I shall pen a review for F71's delectation.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

With all the police procedurals littering the airports, you'd think doc's propensity for bull$hi++ing ... err ... spinning a yarn could be monetized quite readily. 

No doubt, he'd pen a good tale, insist on self-publishing, and then go on a book tour--self-funded of course, with two shirts, a pair of crusty boxers, a box of paperbacks, a random assortment of old prototypes about which he's not sentimental.... you get the picture. 

Hey, where the hell is blurple? And not the fake ones. The one and only. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

docvail said:


> *You all realize I used to give short answers, yes?*
> 
> But then people asked follow-up questions, or wanted to debate further, offer alternative ideas, etc.
> 
> ...


Apologies for my wall of text answer. In my humble, warped Irish sense of humour way, I was trying to sympathize with all you have to go through to try please all the people all the time.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Deep in the weeds is where I live, boys. Deep. In. The. Weeds. Y'all want to visit, don't bltch about the hike getting there.


Will Snackers be provided upon arrival? Thought I read something in here last week about you starting a custom pizza shop as well. If Snackers and pizza are involved my deep weed boots are laced and ready to go. :-!


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Hi there...Do you know my Friend named Mark? He is from Sligo...



kit7 said:


> Apologies for my wall of text answer. In my humble, warped Irish sense of humour way, I was trying to sympathize with all you have to go through to try please all the people all the time.


Is there any risk of gitt'n skeeter's on my peter in dem der weeds b'y?



docvail said:


> Deep in the weeds is where I live, boys. Deep. In. The. Weeds. Y'all want to visit, don't bltch about the hike getting there.


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

Bob I probably do.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Chris,
> 
> I have to say your parcel tracking and delivery is very good. It took no time at all to cross the Atlantic. However, as far as the UK is concerned you might as well not bother hurrying, as our Customs people have only just released my Bloody Barracuda from a grim concrete depot in some godawful part of the Midlands (I'm imagining all of that, apart from the Midlands bit, think Detroit but with comedy accents).
> 
> When it arrives I shall pen a review for F71's delectation.


I'd like to see that.



hwa said:


> Hey, where the hell is blurple? And not the fake ones. The one and only.


In my case, making the others feel so uncool and mainstream, with their 6-to-150-piece production runs, crowing about how he's one of one.



kit7 said:


> Apologies for my wall of text answer. In my humble, warped Irish sense of humour way, I was trying to sympathize with all you have to go through to try please all the people all the time.


You gave a wall of text answer?

Honestly, I skim over most people's posts, just looking for the salient points, and generally assume I've got the gist when I start my reply. If you posted a wall, I didn't notice it, and didn't take offense.

We break each other's balls here. I'm not shielded from it.



mplsabdullah said:


> Will Snackers be provided upon arrival? Thought I read something in here last week about you starting a custom pizza shop as well. If Snackers and pizza are involved my deep weed boots are laced and ready to go. :-!


The Snackers are all gone. We're on to the Recess Peanut Bitter Cups.

They're bitter.



Ojibway Bob said:


> Is there any risk of gitt'n skeeter's on my peter in dem der weeds b'y?


There is something so wrong with you.

But yes, so I'd spray some Deet on your lower extremities before visiting. I can't guarantee the skeeters don't have Yellow Spotted Rocky Mountain Zika Lyme and Cola disease.


----------



## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

docvail said:


> (because I get ridiculous, stupid requests like that, all. the. time.).
> 
> You'll be able to buy it on any strap you want, so long as it's the bracelet.


Sounds like if it wasnt for the customers, end users, service providers, vendors, and suppliers this would be a pretty good business.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> I have to say your parcel tracking and delivery is very good. It took no time at all to cross the Atlantic. However, as far as the UK is concerned you might as well not bother hurrying, as our Customs people have only just released my Bloody Barracuda from a grim concrete depot in some godawful part of the Midlands (I'm imagining all of that, apart from the Midlands bit, think Detroit but with comedy accents).


I presume you mean Coventry? That's where my Orthos II has been sitting until today


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

hwa said:


> With all the police procedurals littering the airports, you'd think doc's propensity for bull$hi++ing ... err ... spinning a yarn could be monetized quite readily.
> 
> No doubt, he'd pen a good tale, insist on self-publishing, and then go on a book tour--self-funded of course, with two shirts, a pair of crusty boxers, a box of paperbacks, a random assortment of old prototypes about which he's not sentimental.... you get the picture.


Wow, that's an interesting picture you paint. No I'm off to bleach my mental images


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

So what you're saying is that you are going to offer a limited edition strap woven from the nether locks of Swedish virgins? Awesome. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

valuewatchguy said:


> Sounds like if it wasn't for the customers, end users, service providers, vendors, and suppliers this would be a pretty good business.


You have no idea.

I just laid into a guy who's been stalking me on Facebook, sending me private messages (which I don't accept from non-contacts), asking if he can review the DevilRay, making outsized claims about how he'd help my business, and posting those "Hey, I sent you a message" sorts of comments under my posts. When that didn't get my attention, he used the contact form on my website.

I've never heard of this guy, ever, and he didn't mention anything about any blog he writes for. He just wants me to send him a DevilRay, for review, because he thinks he'd do a bang-up job.

Seriously? Does anyone think I NEED to work very hard at promoting the DevilRay? It's shaping up to be our most successful model yet. I've got bloggers lined up, ready to review - serious, real bloggers, and had an ad campaign running the last month or two. Analytics suggest it's outperforming all previous campaigns.

I told him if he wanted to review one, the best way would be to buy one.

He asked me (and I quote): "Can you offer a higher discount on the devil Ray if I promise to work hard for you?"

"Promise to work hard"?

What kind of short-pants, sippy-cup, everyone-gets-a-trophy nonsense is that? I wasn't even offering any discount in the first place, you passive-aggressive assumptive punk.

Yes, as soon as you figure out how to deliver your product or service to me (not that working hard at reviewing BS, but your actual day job, the drudgery which pays your bills) at an equivalent percentage discount, and assuming it's something I can actually use, we'll talk about getting you a discount on a watch.

Tell me how you're an orthodontist, local to me, and you'll handle my kids' braces at 20% off, I'll give you 20% off a DevilRay.

Does anyone here think they'd be anything other than offended if your boss asked you to work harder, but for less money? Yeah, me neither. It's an obnoxious, disrespectful thing to do, when you email a small business owner and ask them to accept less for their labors.

This is a business. It's how I feed my family. You may think this is crazy, but I've tried getting the grocery store to accept other people's hard work, in the form of blog reviews and photos, as payment for food, but they stubbornly insist on receiving cash.

I hope that guy gets cancer of the fingertips, just for typing all those messages to me. Let him try to type with his knuckles. I guarantee he'll get a new perspective on what it truly means to "work hard".


----------



## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You have no idea.
> 
> "Promise to work hard"?
> 
> ...


I suppose that means no discount for me then.......crap.....time to get in line for the 6am ordering frenzy like the rest of the chumps...

On a serious note the silver may have just won me over....well done









Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Actually he can get a discount...
A pre-order discount that starts at $450 if he gets in early enough


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> Now that's a cool mod!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks! This is actually the second iteration of this particular SKX. Prior to this it had a Dagaz "Dive-pro" (Seamaster 600M) dial, mil style hands, and a Crystal Times coin-edge bezel which I never really loved the feel of. This I think works much better, and I love the combo of the Yobokies bezel and SARB059 dial. I've thought about doing another with a Samurai Blue Lagoon dial, Transocean hands, and maybe a Dr. Seikostain shark fin bezel or something. Something a bit crazy and fun.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ojibway Bob said:


> ohhh the Whilver shark fighter!!!


I dig it! If I were to buy a DR, that's probably how I'd wear it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Identifying info removed to protect the stupid.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

What, you mean you don't give a 50%-off pricing in exchange for a positive review on forums/blogs? 

Duuuude you're so behind the times, all the good* brands like ginault are doing it!

*- I know they're good because I saw a lot of positive reviews!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> What, you mean you don't give a 50%-off pricing in exchange for a positive review on forums/blogs?
> 
> Duuuude you're so behind the times, all the good* brands like ginault are doing it!
> 
> *- I know they're good because I saw a lot of positive reviews!


I mean...how clear can I make it that I'm not the least bit concerned with what anyone thinks of me?

I make a good product, sell it at a fair price, and back it up with stellar service.

The entertaining wall-of-text posts are just a bonus for you all.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Came here for the texts, got a little confused by some inside-jokes I didn't get, laughed politely at them although I didn't understand it but was compensated by a hilarious documentation of email exchange. That was a really good laugh. Thanks


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

It truly would amaze you if you knew how many people have said some sort of variation of this to me. After I lost my weight (50lbs) I told people that I lost the weight by "pole dancing for crack!" I am not sure if that is a thing or not with the kids now a days but I had a quite a few people turn away and not even look back......WHAT IF I NEEDED A FIX?!?!?



docvail said:


> There is something so wrong with you.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I know some very important people, and I will tell them you suck. 
Now give me a free watch, or I'll also tell them you wear your watches on milanese bracelets, and that your arm is rotting. I possess a picture to proof it, and I won't be shy to show it to them. And let me tell you again, these are really very important people, you wouldn't want to look a fool to them, I can assure you. So you better give me that free watch. 
I'm not going anywhere. I trust you will be interested in working with me.

Best regards,
A seriously influential watch community member.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Sounds connected. Micro Mafia type connected. Should probably just send him the inventory and be thankful he doesn't mean mug you or worse yet unfriend you on Facebook. :-(


----------



## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

My favorite lines were "I'm not going anywhere" and "I know some influential people in the microbrand world"

Hahahahaha....thanks for that

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Random Chrisisms: How tough a person talks in email or on the internet is inversely proportional to how tough they actually are in person.


I've known a lot of tough guys in my day. None of them bothered with threatening messages.


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

Some great stuff going on

Doesnt get more contradictory than saying i love your product, i want your product but im not willing to pay for it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

R.A.D. said:


> Some great stuff going on
> 
> Doesnt get more contradictory than saying i love your product, i want your product but im not willing to pay for it.


OMG!

This guy gets it!

Seriously, this stuff happens every week.

If we're connected on Facebook, you can see when I post the unfiltered versions to my personal timeline. I've publicly outed more than one jackwagon for sending me a nasty-gram.

I figured if people are going to troll me, I'm going to troll the trolls.

"That guy from Janis Trading is an a-hole!"

"Dude, we saw the email you sent him. You're the a-hole, a-hole."


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Give me free things or I will tell everyone I know that you're mean. 

Yours,
Guy On Internet

P.S. I know top men. Top. Men.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Give me free things or I will tell everyone I know that you're mean.
> 
> Yours,
> Guy On Internet
> ...


You owe me a new laptop! I just spit alcoholic beverage all over mine!

Oh God. It's only Tuesday, and I'm already "Friday Loopy". This week isn't going to be as productive as I was hoping...

Dinner time, gentlemen. Ahma go get my grub on. Talk among yourselves.

I'm out.

Peace!


----------



## John Price (Feb 21, 2011)

So, I saw an Nth Azores at a watch get together here in Denver this past Sunday. Cool watch.

Since I wrote that, Doc can you now give me one - that's my positive review. Should be worth a free watch, right????

Seriously, I did see an Nth Azores and now am kicking myself for not getting in on one when they were available for pre-order. Dang it. Truly an awesome watch Doc. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Is this where we find the mean girls of WUS? Which one is Doc? 

Just wondering.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

This is one of the reasons why I am all in for a DevilRay. I have been around for...OMG 6 months already?!?! 
Anyways, I am seeing all these gorgeous pieces everywhere and well...My Money Tree needs watering.

The Devilray I feel I have been a part of it. Of course no planning or anything like that but, I have been watching this from the start so to speak so I find this incredible. I am a bit worried about the case shape as I have never worn a case similar piece. I am not going to sit this out and regret afterwards that I could have gotten it at an incredible pre-order price.

I will roll the dice and learn to hold it, squeeze it, love it, and heck, maybe even call it George... Better yet, CHRIS!!!



idvsego said:


> OMG, I just want the devilray preorders to open. and for secret benefactor to drop a gilt amphion (or cudda, or sante fe, or nacken vintage, or azores vanilla) in my lap because I only have budget for 1.





John Price said:


> So, I saw an Nth Azores at a watch get together here in Denver this past Sunday. Cool watch.
> 
> Since I wrote that, Doc can you now give me one - that's my positive review. Should be worth a free watch, right????
> 
> Seriously, I did see an Nth Azores and now am kicking myself for not getting in on one when they were available for pre-order. Dang it. Truly an awesome watch Doc. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Vee hav vays of making you comply. Send zee free vatch to me and I vill give great review, nudge nudge. Oh yes, und you pay shipping vith tracking und vith insurance.


----------



## CantFightJose (Dec 29, 2016)

I wonder if the people telling Doc to make his watches to their sepcs also start their emails to Rolex with "Now let me tell YOU how to make a watch".


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

watchuck said:


> Wow, that's an interesting picture you paint. No I'm off to bleach my mental images


We dont want to know what youre bleaching. Its not our business, and not that kind of party--as doc used to advise when he was still one of the cool kids.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> You have no idea.
> 
> I just laid into a guy who's been stalking me on Facebook, sending me private messages (which I don't accept from non-contacts), asking if he can review the DevilRay, making outsized claims about how he'd help my business, and posting those "Hey, I sent you a message" sorts of comments under my posts. When that didn't get my attention, he used the contact form on my website.
> 
> ...


Now that's the doc we learned to love. Welcome back, Kotter. You were never Fonzie. Hate to be the one to tell you, but someone had to do it.

Meanwhile, send me a devilray. I'll hit it with a hammer. Thats hard work, no? Anyone else promise that? Then I'll let my puppy have at it. He's nothing but teeth, and I believe if he cant best the sharktooth bezel, he'll eat it whole and s#it it out.

You guys having fun?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

This is better than any soap opera! I'm just sitting back with popcorn and a Yuengling and looking at the empty spot on my wrist and wondering how much longer before a new Devil Ray sits on it. I'd make a list but, well we don need no stinkin lists!! I'll bet that lume would look great in the trunk of a car in a cave on the dark side of the moon! And I really don't mind if it comes strapless, just saying.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Now that's the doc we learned to love. Welcome back, Kotter. You were never Fonzie. Hate to be the one to tell you, but someone had to do it.
> 
> Meanwhile, send me a devilray. I'll hit it with a hammer. Thats hard work, no? Anyone else promise that? Then I'll let my puppy have at it. He's nothing but teeth, and I believe if he cant best the sharktooth bezel, he'll eat it whole and s#it it out.
> 
> ...


Seriously.

My lawyer bought two of my watches, paid full price.

My doctor bought one of my watches, paid full price.

If either had asked to do a trade, I'd have jumped on it, especially my lawyer. I think I'm into that guy for $3k per year. Don't even get me started on my accountant, and I wasn't kidding about my kid's orthodontist, either.

And what do you mean, I was never Fonzie?

Leather jacket? Had more than one, including the "I'm not letting my daughter out with you" fold-over black motorcycle jacket.

Motorcycle? Had three.

Ridiculous haircut? Nothing more ridiculous than the late 80's/early 90's mullet, but some strong contenders in the years before and after.

Apartment above the Cunningham's garage? My then-girlfriend-now-wife and I shared an apartment above an old couple's hardware store. Close enough.

Magical powers over jukeboxes? No, but back in high-school, I could sometimes get those vending machines with the screw-type dispensers to put down two candy bars by rocking the machine back and forth as it was dispensing, and I once got my hand up inside a coke machine far enough to pull out a can. It got a hole punched in it in the process, and I got covered in cola spray, but still...where are there even jukeboxes in operation these days?

Dance contest winner? No, but I rock at Wednesday night trivia, and I've been known to crush a charity poker tournament.

I was way more Fonzie than you've ever been, that's for sure.

So sit on it, Potsy.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

John Price said:


> So, I saw an Nth Azores at a watch get together here in Denver this past Sunday. Cool watch.
> 
> Since I wrote that, Doc can you now give me one - that's my positive review. Should be worth a free watch, right????
> 
> Seriously, I did see an Nth Azores and now am kicking myself for not getting in on one when they were available for pre-order. Dang it. Truly an awesome watch Doc. Keep up the good work.


Cheers, John. Good to see you again.

If you're interested in one of the Tropics, John Keil from WatchGauge bought out the last of my Tropics inventory, and has some for sale. For anyone in the Western hemisphere, he's the last guy holding.

If anyone here is in Singapore, apparently there will be a new micro-watch mega-store (I think it will be mega) opening in some high-end mall there, sometime in October, I think, and they'll have some for sale.

If you're in Hong Kong, check out watchmark-store.com.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Seriously.
> 
> My lawyer bought two of my watches, paid full price.
> 
> ...


Fonzie: ayyyyyyyy

Chris: Blah blah blah etc etc etc

The Fonz never 'splained nothin'

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So Doc, I see your near Phili? So am I, I'm in Hamilton on the Jersey side. I'm a Watch guy and I admire your work. I got started in watches and building them as a hobby when I retired from the Navy in 2004. Gave me something to do. Anyway just wanted to say hello, I enjoy the forum, lots of good fun, and as I said I'm a fan of your work. If your ever so interested to have a local PA/NJ members meeting, first round is on me. Cheers.

Rhorya


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> So Doc, I see your near Phili? So am I, I'm in Hamilton on the Jersey side. I'm a Watch guy and I admire your work. I got started in watches and building them as a hobby when I retired from the Navy in 2004. Gave me something to do. Anyway just wanted to say hello, I enjoy the forum, lots of good fun, and as I said I'm a fan of your work. If your ever so interested to have a local PA/NJ members meeting, first round is on me. Cheers.
> 
> Rhorya
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


PA/NJ/NY......

and count me in for an Irish goodbye....(and check the tab frequently).


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Someone once asked me why I started this thread. Read the last 5-6 pages. That's why. lol


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Doc in leather. Not the Fonz










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

So I threatened Doc I may break my watch forum cherry and post about the ghost rider I just ordered, and thought I should look and see what's out there about his goings on at Janis Trading...... Man this is a goldmine! Just spent the last half hour reading laughing and generally enjoying what my eyeholes are seeing.

Anyhow hope to write soon on my impressions of the phantom, and continue to laugh and lust at the things posted here?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> So Doc, I see your near Phili? So am I, I'm in Hamilton on the Jersey side. I'm a Watch guy and I admire your work. I got started in watches and building them as a hobby when I retired from the Navy in 2004. Gave me something to do. Anyway just wanted to say hello, I enjoy the forum, lots of good fun, and as I said I'm a fan of your work. If your ever so interested to have a local PA/NJ members meeting, first round is on me. Cheers.
> 
> Rhorya
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


We've actually been doing annual GTG's in King of Prussia, usually in April. I set up a facebook group here - https://www.facebook.com/groups/PhillyAreaGTG/.

I've been known to meet people for a drink when they're visiting the western Philly suburbs. HWA has even been to my house, where he met my wife, my dog, my son, and my other son, the pantsless wonder - I swear I can't remember the last time I saw him wearing trousers inside the house.

Jelliottz claims he's been there, the pantry, specifically, putting together the jelli-mods, but he can't prove it, and the police have no basis for a search warrant.

I sometimes get to Jersey, mostly my 'rents' place in Cape May. I try to avoid the rest of it, and as an Army vet, you're not enticing me by telling me you retired from the Navy. I mean, Navy Seals, maybe. At least those guys can shoot. They can't do land navigation for ****e, but they can shoot, I'll give them that.

I'll likely be heading down to DC for that micro-brands meetup the Time Bum is organizing. Assuming I do, I'll no doubt have the stuff you'd want to see - DevilRay protos, obviously, as well as the Spectre II protos, and my personal collection of L&H/NTH stuff.

It should be a good event, which I encourage people to attend. The Bum tells me they got a bigger room this year, which is a good thing, believe me. Last year was nothing but a$$holes and elbows.

I wouldn't mind doing a fall GTG in the Philly area, but someone else would need to organize it. I organize the one in April, which is usually well attended, but I don't have the time to put a second one together, especially as my gut tells me it wouldn't be as well attended, and I know at least half a dozen guys who make a habit of saying they'll be there, then at the last minute they come down with a bad case of "wife won't let me go", which always grinds my gears, thinking about the work I put in.

But, if you or anyone else is up for taking on the job, the Fox & Hound in KoP is an accommodating place. Make sure you tell them you want to reserve the back room with the pool tables for a private party, closed to all others.

Drop my name if you need to. I've worked with the same young woman there the last two or three years, and she usually remembers "gang of watch geeks" before I get to that part. They don't charge a room fee, and the room is the perfect size, the place has plenty of parking, easily accessed from major highways, etc.

I'm good for the first $100 of drinks/food people order, which usually assures people show up promptly, cheap bastards.

Otherwise, let me know when you'll be out on Philly's main line, anywhere between Bala Cynwyd and Exton, and we'll link up for booze and bull$hltting about watches. I work from home, so I make my own hours, and my wife is all too happy to have me out of the house, so that's never an issue.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Doc in leather. Not the Fonz
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not with that hat, no.

Seriously, I know why girls on facebook make the "duckface" - they think it looks seductive. But why the hell would this ponce do it? He looks like he's got one last drop of pee stuck at the tip of his urethra, and it's burning, but he's trying not to let on.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

We'll have to keep the ex mil stuff to ourselves for now, have to vet out the ones who don't need to know. So that's a face to face which I'm sure will be sooner than later. Have to crash. Catch y'all in the am.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Doc in leather. Not the Fonz
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was uncalled for.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> If anyone here is in Singapore, apparently there will be a new micro-watch mega-store (I think it will be mega) opening in some high-end mall there, sometime in October, I think, and they'll have some for sale.


Any chance you know the name of the (future) store?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Any chance you know the name of the (future) store?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Watch Wonderland?

Something like that.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Watch Wonderland?
> 
> Something like that.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Awesome, thanks!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> We'll have to keep the ex mil stuff to ourselves for now, have to vet out the ones who don't need to know. So that's a face to face which I'm sure will be sooner than later. Have to crash. Catch y'all in the am.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


The Marines say hi. 1983-2013


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> You owe me a new laptop! I just spit alcoholic beverage all over mine!
> 
> Oh God. It's only Tuesday, and I'm already "Friday Loopy". This week isn't going to be as productive as I was hoping...
> 
> ...


For anyone who missed that reference:


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Got the Evant, and I'm amazed how they royally botched the design of the lugs. The watch isn't _that _much taller than my Cascais, but the way the lugs are shaped and the lug holes are positioned, they make the case look like it's about a thousand feet tall. A few mm higher positioning of the lug holes would've solved it. I knew about this issue going in, and bought one anyway because I wanted to actually see how it looked in person rather than just in photos, and yeah... it's bad. What I think I might do is have a custom strap shop like The Strap Smith make a strap with the spring bar holes maybe 1.5mm down from normal. This definitely gives me some newfound appreciation for the work you put in to getting your designs right, Doc. You'd think somebody at Evant would've fixed this.

How the Tropic _should _look:









How it _actually _looks:


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Trower44 said:


> So I threatened Doc I may break my watch forum cherry and post about the ghost rider I just ordered, and thought I should look and see what's out there about his goings on at Janis Trading...... Man this is a goldmine! Just spent the last half hour reading laughing and generally enjoying what my eyeholes are seeing.
> 
> Anyhow hope to write soon on my impressions of the phantom, and continue to laugh and lust at the things posted here?


Yep, welcome aboard for the ride to Planet Kaos, with the promise of a constant supply of trouser splitting chuckling; be warned tho', linger too long this side of the portal and there ain't no going back.......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Got the Evant, and I'm amazed how they royally botched the design of the lugs. The watch isn't _that _much taller than my Cascais, but the way the lugs are shaped and the lug holes are positioned, they make the case look like it's about a thousand feet tall. A few mm higher positioning of the lug holes would've solved it. I knew about this issue going in, and bought one anyway because I wanted to actually see how it looked in person rather than just in photos, and yeah... it's bad. What I think I might do is have a custom strap shop like The Strap Smith make a strap with the spring bar holes maybe 1.5mm down from normal. This definitely gives me some newfound appreciation for the work you put in to getting your designs right, Doc. You'd think somebody at Evant would've fixed this.
> 
> How the Tropic _should _look:
> 
> ...


It's almost as if they put a big effort into designing that gorgeous dial, but when it came to the case - "yeah, that'll do...". Also, I have picked up on several issues relating to QC with defects ranging from misplaced dials to troubles with the bezel insert; a real pity. Hope that yours is okay QC wise.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



capitalisttool_mt said:


> This was uncalled for.


Hesitation be damned. How so?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Ragl said:


> It's almost as if they put a big effort into designing that gorgeous dial, but when it came to the case - "yeah, that'll do...". Also, I have picked up on several issues relating to QC with defects ranging from misplaced dials to troubles with the bezel insert; a real pity. Hope that yours is okay QC wise.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


Frankly speaking Spinnaker at 30% of the price was of superb quality

Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> For anyone who missed that reference:


Fun fact about the guy in that clip, "Major Eaton"...

He was also "Porkins" in Star Wars:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> It's almost as if they put a big effort into designing that gorgeous dial, but when it came to the case - "yeah, that'll do...". Also, I have picked up on several issues relating to QC with defects ranging from misplaced dials to troubles with the bezel insert; a real pity. Hope that yours is okay QC wise.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


I'm not sure how I'd fix the lug-hole position. Further towards the case, the lugs stick out past the strap on smaller wrists, but I suppose that's God's way of telling you not to wear big watches.

As for the effort put into the design, it's an homage to the vintage Brequet 1646 diver.









I'm not saying they didn't put ANY thought into it. Even when you make an homage, there's thought put into it, and it's impossible to make anything without effort, but some credit should be given to the inspiration source.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

the_watchier said:


> Frankly speaking Spinnaker at 30% of the price was of superb quality
> 
> Instagram @ the_watchier


Spinnaker's made by Hong-Kong based Solar Time, which owns about a dozen brands, including AVI-8 and Ballast. They also provide OEM services to other brands they do not own.

People can sometimes get down on the quality of something like a $120 quartz AVI-8 or a Ballast with a low-end Chinese mechanical movement, but they (Solar Time) can actually produce really good quality, in terms of fit and finish.

I've met the CEO in Hong Kong twice. It's a family-run business, he's the son of the founder (who I've also met). They're good people, and smart. They've built a pretty amazing business if you understand the scope of it, and the skill employed in launching new brands.

He's offered advice and encouragement to me and other micros.


----------



## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

docvail said:


> Spinnaker's made by Hong-Kong based Solar Time, which owns about a dozen brands, including AVI-8 and Ballast. They also provide OEM services to other brands they do not own.
> 
> People can sometimes get down on the quality of something like a $120 quartz AVI-8 or a Ballast with a low-end Chinese mechanical movement, but they (Solar Time) can actually produce really good quality, in terms of fit and finish.
> 
> ...


This applies to the whole Asian manufacturing market which a lot of people don't seem to understand. They'll make high quality stuff no problem-if you ask and pay for it. The bulk of America and American culture often revolves around buying the cheapest option. Of course, there are always exceptions, but sometimes _you get what you pay for.
_


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

crappysurfer said:


> They'll make high quality stuff no problem-if you ask and pay for it.


preach


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Azores today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

We have all been there. Am I right?



docvail said:


> stuck at the tip of his urethra, and it's burning


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ragl said:


> It's almost as if they put a big effort into designing that gorgeous dial, but when it came to the case - "yeah, that'll do...". Also, I have picked up on several issues relating to QC with defects ranging from misplaced dials to troubles with the bezel insert; a real pity. Hope that yours is okay QC wise.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


There's a very "that'll do-ness" to the case. The main issue I have with it is the watch should be nowhere _near _as thick as it is. I don't know why you need 14mm for 30ATM. I don't expect them to be able to do 50ATM at ~12.5 like Sinn, but obviously substantially thinner cases have been done from other micros with 30ATM ratings (one is one my wrist right now). Worse, the original No. 1646 itself was a lot thinner than the Evant, and it wasn't a hand-wind. It's hard to tell just by looking at it, but I would guess that the '60s original was somewhere around 12mm or so. Most likely it was 10ATM rated, but Evant could've done that and been fine_, _10ATM was good enough for Oris' homage to their own '60s diver. Or make it 20ATM and 12.5mm. The Evant is a great looking watch don't get me wrong, but with ~1.5-2mm shaved off of the height and a much flatter lug profile it would be a stunner.

Other than that, mine looks pretty good. It's hard to complain _too _loudly when you're getting an Elabore grade ETA-2824, sapphire, lumed ceramic, and BGW9 SL plus a beautiful dial for <$500, and I'm curious to see what they come up with next.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

crappysurfer said:


> This applies to the whole Asian manufacturing market which a lot of people don't seem to understand. They'll make high quality stuff no problem-if you ask and pay for it. The bulk of America and American culture often revolves around buying the cheapest option. Of course, there are always exceptions, but sometimes _you get what you pay for.
> _


I agree, for instance Zenton watches out of Hong Kong. You can get a top grade eta movement inside a high tech deep dive case with great anti-mag specs for under $1k. That's a great deal for any similar watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

Hey guys, i'm thinking of the second bracelet that would fit my Nacken Vintage Black well and as i love Strapcode Endmill design (straight end of course) it is my main choice now. 
Did anyone try it on the sub ? and which clasp would be more solid,sleek and thin at the same time - v clasp , button chamfer or divers clasp?

I will appreciate any other solid bracelet suggestions also


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> There's a very "that'll do-ness" to the case. The main issue I have with it is the watch should be nowhere _near _as thick as it is. I don't know why you need 14mm for 30ATM. I don't expect them to be able to do 50ATM at ~12.5 like Sinn, but obviously substantially thinner cases have been done from other micros with 30ATM ratings (one is one my wrist right now). Worse, the original No. 1646 itself was a lot thinner than the Evant, and it wasn't a hand-wind. It's hard to tell just by looking at it, but I would guess that the '60s original was somewhere around 12mm or so. Most likely it was 10ATM rated, but Evant could've done that and been fine_, _10ATM was good enough for Oris' homage to their own '60s diver. Or make it 20ATM and 12.5mm. The Evant is a great looking watch don't get me wrong, but with ~1.5-2mm shaved off of the height and a much flatter lug profile it would be a stunner.
> 
> Other than that, mine looks pretty good. It's hard to complain _too _loudly when you're getting an Elabore grade ETA-2824, sapphire, lumed ceramic, and BGW9 SL plus a beautiful dial for <$500, and I'm curious to see what they come up with next.
> 
> View attachment 12503509


Is it really 14mm thick, though? I saw a review which said it was 13mm, but it wouldn't be the first time a review got it wrong.

Does it NEED to be that thick (13mm, or 14mm)? Not necessarily, but maybe.

With the thin bezel, you get a wider crystal. As crystal diameter and water resistance increase, so does the need for a thicker crystal. Caseback likewise increases in thickness with higher WR.

The Orthos is 13mm thick, at 42mm, but I'd bet the two watches' crystal diameters are very similar, and without looking them up, I think the thickness of the Seiko NH35 in the Orthos and the ETA in the Evant are pretty close, when you include the pinion height (which you need to include).

During the early discussions about the Commander 300 project, when people took issue with the thickness of the Orthos, I went back and looked at the case cutaway diagram, to see if I could have made it much thinner, and honestly, I'm not sure there's any way that model could have been made any thinner.

At best, maybe you'd be able to shave 0.25mm-0.5mm out of it, and mostly by pressing the engineers on everything from component thickness to clearances between moving parts. They hate that, as I learned, painfully, firsthand, during the development of the NTH Subs.

Don't be too sure about the thickness of a vintage (or for that matter, any) model based on shots like that one you posted. It's not at all uncommon for watches to have skinny case walls, but pot-belly casebacks.

This is one of the things I hate about the criticisms of the Orthos. Yes, it's got taller case walls, but that's because I didn't want to have the caseback bulging out from the bottom, which puts more pressure on the area where it contacts your body, and raises the lugs up in the air, so you see daylight coming through under the strap or bracelet. In fact, the caseback is recessed up into the case, cutting into the underside of the lugs, which is why it rides so snug on the wrist, and you don't see that daylight between the first link in the bracelet and your wrist.

Regardless, I once saw someone post the comment that I spend too much effort on case design. That was meant as criticism, but I take it as a compliment. Most manufacturers don't put much thought into it, and it shows.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

s.z said:


> Hey guys, i'm thinking of the second bracelet that would fit my Nacken Vintage Black well and as i love Strapcode Endmill design (straight end of course) it is my main choice now.
> Did anyone try it on the sub ? and which clasp would be more solid,sleek and thin at the same time - v clasp , button chamfer or divers clasp?
> 
> I will appreciate any other solid bracelet suggestions also


I don't know about the straight end-link, or which clasp to use, but I'm fairly certain their fitted end-link bracelets will fit the Subs, based on the fact I fitted them to the Subs' prototypes. The end-links' top surface sits a little under the lugs' surface, rather than flush, like the stock bracelets, but that's actually closer to how it is on modern Rolexes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

crappysurfer said:


> This applies to the whole Asian manufacturing market which a lot of people don't seem to understand. They'll make high quality stuff no problem-if you ask and pay for it. The bulk of America and American culture often revolves around buying the cheapest option. Of course, there are always exceptions, but sometimes _you get what you pay for.
> _


For those of you who don't realize it, crappysurfer is my friend Nick Harris, of the eponymously-named Watches by Nick, and the Orion Project.

So, yes, preach, brother Nick.

I'm not going to get up on the soapbox again, but when people get up in my grill about my prices, I sometimes try to explain why I'm higher than Johnny Micro's latest startup - yes, it's the quality of what you're getting, whether you realize it or not, but it's also my service, the cost of maintaining a solid ecommerce system, paying for good photography, etc.

When it comes to the cost of getting quality, we're truly at the point where there's nothing we can improve upon WITHOUT an increase in cost, bringing with it a necessary increase in price, and I think we've crossed over into that "diminishing returns" realm, where we could spend 20%-30% more for only a 5%-10% increase in quality, some of which wouldn't be very noticeable, if people could notice it at all, and I sincerely fear most people wouldn't feel like the marginal improvement is "worth" the added price I'd have to charge.

Yes, you do get what you pay for (sometimes).


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

The attention to case design is literally what has brought me over to this brand. Please don't change it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Doc will not subvert
quality will def remain
walls of text coming

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Doc will not subvert
> quality will def remain
> walls of text coming
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My good friend Andrew
Your haiku game has improved.
Mine is still better.


----------



## 59yukon01 (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm just here for the journalistic walls of text. Well that, and the Devil Ray.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My good friend Andrew
> Your haiku game has improved.
> Mine is still better.


I wasnt drunk yet
Whiskey improves my haikus
That is five, i think

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> I wasnt drunk yet
> Whiskey improves my haikus
> That is five, i think
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When are you not drunk?
Whisky is your "mother's milk."
Sobriety? Pffft!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Update on the DevilRay...

1. I was wrong about the lume on the crowns being mis-matched, compared to the dial/hands/bezel.

I was looking at the lume using a UV torch. Under the UV, the white lume on the orange and blue dials looks blue, but remove the torch, and it clearly glows green, so the lume on the crown actually does match.

So...good on my factory for getting that detail right.

2. They're remaking the end-link. 

Ideally, it'll look like our illustrations, but I've asked them to attach the bracelet to the case after the end-link is re-done, to make sure the bezel can be turned. If not, then the end-link design could be different. We'll see what happens. You'll all know before we open pre-orders.

3. People ask me my favorite color. 

Seriously, they're all great, and I like them all. I might add one of each to my personal collection, which is unusual for me, lately.

You're on your own for picking which one (or ones) you want.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Spinnaker's made by Hong-Kong based Solar Time, which owns about a dozen brands, including AVI-8 and Ballast. They also provide OEM services to other brands they do not own.
> 
> People can sometimes get down on the quality of something like a $120 quartz AVI-8 or a Ballast with a low-end Chinese mechanical movement, but they (Solar Time) can actually produce really good quality, in terms of fit and finish.
> 
> ...


Just a further point on this/random thinks...

I may be projecting a bit, and this may be a touchy subject, but here goes - whenever anyone talks about companies based out of Hong Kong, I wonder how many people reflexively imagine some sort of "sweat shop" operation, and instinctively associate that with China's reputation for mistreating laborers, which in turn affects how we view the Chinese people involved in those businesses, creating an "us versus them and they're bad" mindset.

It's not like that.

Jake Boudreaux runs Dagaz out of Hong Kong. I don't think he's Chinese. Peter Helson runs Helson out of Hong Kong. I don't think he's Chinese. Solar Time is based in Hong Kong, but the owners aren't Chinese. Judging by their looks and their names, I'd guess they're of Indian descent, but Vishal, the CEO, speaks English with the same tempo and vernacular of anyone who grew up in any American city. Culturally speaking, they're "us".

They're all "Westerners" who've chosen to run their businesses out of Hong Kong. I can't blame them. I was there less than an hour before I wanted to move there. It smells like money and freedom.

As for the Chinese people, there are very real cultural differences between the folks in Hong Kong and the people on the mainland. The folks I met from Hong Kong are also, pretty much, "us".

I feel for them. The economic zone of Hong Kong is small, and although they're "creating" some land, it will always be the case that those folks really don't have anywhere else to go, unless they want to attempt to assimilate into the mainland, which is a tough ask. Hong Kong Ed lives in a suburban area called the "New Territories", which I think is marshland, filled in with enough dirt and sand to build on it. His commute to work in Hong Kong proper is over an hour, maybe longer. I forget exactly how long he told me it was, but I remember thinking, "you poor bastard."

Everyone from Hong Kong who I met while I was there seemed to be working at something. Sloth was non-existent, from what I saw. Their industriousness puts most populations to shame, and yet, other than the girls working the nightclub doors in the red-light district (very few of whom are Chinese - it seems like most of them are Thai or Filipino, plus one obviously Latina girl who eye-banged the hell out of me), I didn't see any indication that anyone worked in a "sweat shop" there. Quite the contrary - the whole place is air conditioned on full blast!

Back in 2014, Chip, Sujain and I went over to the mainland to tour some of the facilities of factories and their sub-vendors. Plus, both then and last year, we met with many folks from the mainland, at the show.

There's definitely a lower standard of living on the mainland, but still, the harshest working conditions we saw were in the dial shop, where they cut dials from brass sheet, or the case finishing shop, but neither was any worse than what I remember from High School metal shop. Both places had huge fans going, which isn't as nice as air-conditioning, but how many auto-repair garages here in the US are air-conditioned? Do we call the Jiffy-Lube a "sweat shop"?

Yeah, there was sweat, but it was Hong Kong in September, and a lot of that sweat was mine and Sujain's. It's hot as balls there that time of year.

Some of the facilities were state-of-the-art. The assembly facility was a dust-free, no-static, vacuum-sealed sort of joint. The PVD/DLC plating place was enormous, but the whole place was climate-controlled, and sparkled with how clean it was. All the people in both joints seemed happy to be there, plugging away.

I don't fully understand the ins-and-outs of how exactly you get to "own" a business in what's ostensibly a communist country, but literally - not figuratively - everyone at every one of these places either owns the business, or is pulling you aside to tell you their plans for starting their own business (when their boss isn't within earshot).

They're hungry to improve their lot in life, and willing to work as hard as it takes to do it. Yes, it would be great if the "Chinese watchmaking industry" could clean up their act when it comes to producing fakes, as well as some lesser offenses, but that's not what everyone there is doing. In fact, when the topic comes up, everyone in the "legit" industry seems sincerely abashed by it.

A lot of them are just doing exactly what a lot of us would like to do - building solid, well-run, honorable businesses to support our families. They just happen to be doing it in Hong Kong or China, which is where it's all (or nearly all) being done these days, at least in this business.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Just a further point on this/random thinks...
> 
> I may be projecting a bit, and this may be a touchy subject, but here goes - whenever anyone talks about companies based out of Hong Kong, I wonder how many people reflexively imagine some sort of "sweat shop" operation, and instinctively associate that with China's reputation for mistreating laborers, which in turn affects how we view the Chinese people involved in those businesses, creating an "us versus them and they're bad" mindset.
> 
> ...


Another wall of journalistic prose. Except this time I felt I was reading the National Geographic Horological edition. Lots of words, no pictures of naked people though. Still a great read!! Feels like I've been there already. Have to get a new stamp in my passport. Go Devils!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Tactical Thursday, and my Ocean 7 Meteor in titanium is appropriate for the occasion. One of the 7? Nobody's talking.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Another wall of journalistic prose. Except this time I felt I was reading the National Geographic Horological edition. Lots of words, no pictures of naked people though. Still a great read!! Feels like I've been there already. Have to get a new stamp in my passport. Go Devils!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


If you really want to feel like you've been there, read these. We documented both trips. Hilarity ensued.

2014 - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/micros-hong-kong-sung-tune-werewolves-london-1078747.html

2016 - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/micros-hong-kong-two-fat-too-furious-3547778.html


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The new end-links for the DevilRay bracelet won't be ready until near the end of the month. I'll try to set up photography ASAP. Hopefully we can start pre-orders by mid-October.

Grrrr...


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Wow, I can not imagine how much time involved on the phone or chatting via email this must take. I also can't fathom the difficulty it is just planning for a family trip. I mean how can you plan anything when, I can only guess (not really!!) soooo much money has to be tied up. By now I know you have some sort of savings and I remember the old loonie tunes ( reasoning for my nickname I use on Facebook) about expanding a business and spending to grow bigger. But still to have a vision and plan for the unforseenable and a way to attack it..

Maybe we should just call you Visionary Vail!!!! Maybe I will get my daughter to draw a Superhero character of you....then maybe I can start a blog, I mean look at my sentence building skullzzz and the use of punctuations...YAAABOII!! Of topic but I was going to say maybe.....I will send you a pm and we can take partnership!!! bwahahahahhah I kill me!!! (spoken like the Comedic genius A.L.F.)

seriously thou.... Peace!!!!



docvail said:


> The new end-links for the DevilRay bracelet won't be ready until near the end of the month. I'll try to set up photography ASAP. Hopefully we can start pre-orders by mid-October.
> 
> Grrrr...


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Love this! Great job!



docvail said:


> This is not a BOR.
> 
> Nor is it an engineer.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> If you really want to feel like you've been there, read these. We documented both trips. Hilarity ensued.
> 
> 2014 - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/micros-hong-kong-sung-tune-werewolves-london-1078747.html
> 
> 2016 - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/micros-hong-kong-two-fat-too-furious-3547778.html


Lol OMG! Good stuff there, just wasted 2 hours at work but laughed my ass off. I've never been to HK, but I've been to Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Philippines, Singapore, India, Ceylon, all over the Persian Gulf, Israel, Djibouti, and a bunch of European countries. So I'm well traveled and I've had many of those experiences!! Good stuff!! Can't wait for the next edition!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Rhorya said:


> Lol OMG! Good stuff there, just wasted 2 hours at work but laughed my ass off.


You've wasted no time. I prefer to think you've simply been nourishing your soul. Productivity boost = assured.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Lol OMG! Good stuff there, just wasted 2 hours at work but laughed my ass off. I've never been to HK, but I've been to Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Philippines, Singapore, India, Ceylon, all over the Persian Gulf, Israel, Djibouti, and a bunch of European countries. So I'm well traveled and I've had many of those experiences!! Good stuff!! Can't wait for the next edition!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yeah, sorry about the missing images and videos. Blame it on any of the last forum updates and/or whatever's been going on with Photobucket the last few months.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Apropos of nothing, I'd love to see an nth take on a pam diver. Y'know, something pam-styled but with all the good things that the subs have - well made, nicely finished, reasonably sized cases, cool (and not-ugly) dials, not straight-up copies.

There was an article on aBtW today about a new batch of pams, and this was my thought process, verbatim:
1) Huh, these look really good. 
2) Come to think of it, most pams look good - at least on their own...
3) Out of my means though. I wonder if there's anything good on micros/f71
--- same hour or two of forum-scrolling later:
4) Not much choice from genuine makers, and I sure as hell ain't going for ebay-homages.
5) what exists (magrettes, maranezes) is usually too large, and cases look like cut by & with a drunk axeman. Rough!

Probably just howling in the wind, but, *shrug*. Just sayin'.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Apropos of nothing, I'd love to see an nth take on a pam diver. Y'know, something pam-styled but with all the good things that the subs have - well made, nicely finished, reasonably sized cases, cool (and not-ugly) dials, not straight-up copies.
> 
> There was an article on aBtW today about a new batch of pams, and this was my thought process, verbatim:
> 1) Huh, these look really good.
> ...


I'm 1000% certain I'll regret posting this, but eff it, here goes.

It's actually an interesting idea.

Having said that, I'd prefer not to start a long discussion about it here, wherein people start chiming in with further input. The simple fact is I don't have time right now to pursue the idea's development, so all everyone would be doing is feeding great ideas to my competitors, no doubt at least one of whom is in a better position to develop it than I am.

In a nutshell, the genesis of the NTH Subs was three years of me saying I didn't see any reason to make a Sub homage, as a response to people who asked me to make one, but eventually, the Fanmen as a whole, and HWA in particular, wore me down.

I vividly remember being in the car with HWA, leaving a DC GTG at GUTuna's restaurant, and asking him, point blank (hoping it would shut him up), "tell me, smart guy, what's missing among the vast array of choices available to someone looking for a good Sub homage?"

What he said, and what others followed on with was, essentially, "everything out there is either too big, too thick, too flat, too long, too expensive, too crappy, the wait is too long, too limited, the details are wrong, etc, etc, etc. What we need is for someone to make a more affordable, have-it-now, yet just as meticulous when it comes to the details alternative to MKII."

So...NTH Subs, and Bob's yer uncle.

My thoughts about PAM's are essentially the same, and I'd ask the same question, _*yet I'd spare no effort to make it clear I am asking RHETORICALLY*_ - what's missing? *(Please, I beg you all, do NOT answer that question, at least, not here. I will be driven to madness if you do. I'm serious. Don't do it.)*

I think Magrette and Benarus/Stevral make fantastic watches, truly, and both have interesting takes on the PAM genre. I understand Magrette's are a bit large, but Benarus did make a 40mm Moray, I think. I suppose the numbers were limited, and they were at the upper end of affordable (not that I foresee making something much cheaper). I'm not too surprised that Maranez and the rest of the field are nice enough at the price, but still lacking in some way.

For whatever it's worth, I really, really, really liked my Cobra de Calibre, and to me, those CDC models are great examples of how to make something PAM-ish without it being reduced to being "just another PAM homage". I only sold mine because my collection grew too large, and anything I didn't make was jettisoned. I think JohnnyBaldJunior is still laughing at the stupid deal he got on it from me. Imperialist bastard...

If I was going to do something PAM-inspired, and I do mean IF, I'd have to spend some time thinking about A) what's missing in the current field, B) how I could make something "better", and C) is it even worth the effort, since, much like with Subs, the market isn't exactly lacking for alternatives, and I haven't had good luck with square cases.

One of my challenges is I find it hard to get motivated enough to invest my time and energy into something that doesn't excite me personally. I've started, then abandoned more than one model, or just let them stall out until I come back to them.

Even though I love Magrette, the Benarus/Stevral Moray, and the Cobra de Calibre, my tastes have changed, bringing me around to smaller watches, and I no longer have the same level of interest in owning a big, cushion-case diver.

Even something as small as a 40mm rounded-square case has an area roughly equivalent to a 45mm diameter round case.

Remember how chunky you thought the Legends Racer looked? Yeah, that was 39mm x 39mm, and only 100m WR. Imagine how chunky a 39mm/40mm cushion case diver with legit WR is going to be. Think "door stop".

That's going to have the same visual "weight" as a 44mm/45mm round case diver, but I'll have to contend with the people who stop reading at 39mm/40mm and say, "Bah! That's too small for me!" (Chief Wahoo, OvrSteer, looking at you, bruhs).

If I make it 42mm, it's still too "small" for a lot of the big-wrist guys, and likely too "big" for a lot of the small wrist guys. As soon as I get to 44mm, I'm in the thick of things, competing with guys who've already nailed it, i.e., Magrette and Benarus/Stevral.

I think I may hate square cases, just for this reason.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Myeah. Certainly a tricky proposition. Thanks for the insight/thoughts, doc - nothing disagreeable, and what you're saying makes sense. As you say, "Door Stop". 
(and, pulling the proverbial tiger tail, the lighthearted reply to a rhetorical question: _polished _edge lines  As for competitors seeing this - *shrug* they'll just keep messing it up the way nearly everyone is already messing it up. _c'est la vie_)

Anyways. I'm just really happy with the Amphion VB. Wears well, fits with everything, and *feels* high-quality. Like, solid. compact.

P.S. cruicial advice - folks, get straps with quickrelease springbars. They're f'ing amazing.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I heard what you said, but the only PAM that does it for me is the Radiomir. I threw back a couple of the cheap homages, but I'd kinda like to see an NTH version. At least it wouldn't be junk....


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> The new end-links for the DevilRay bracelet won't be ready until near the end of the month. I'll try to set up photography ASAP. Hopefully we can start pre-orders by mid-October.
> 
> Grrrr...


Bracelet looks great..and wooo for a photographer!! Hopefully helps me pick what color... because I'm still undecided...

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> HWA in particular, wore me down.


It's what I do best.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> It's what I do best.


#truth


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

docvail said:


> I don't know about the straight end-link, or which clasp to use, but I'm fairly certain their fitted end-link bracelets will fit the Subs, based on the fact I fitted them to the Subs' prototypes. The end-links' top surface sits a little under the lugs' surface, rather than flush, like the stock bracelets, but that's actually closer to how it is on modern Rolexes.


sounds great . how was the overall design feel when installed ? it should be good enough i suppose. there are few fitted endlink bracelets for different Seiko models, do you remember which exactly you tried?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

s.z said:


> sounds great . how was the overall design feel when installed ? it should be good enough i suppose. there are few fitted endlink bracelets for different Seiko models, do you remember which exactly you tried?


I can't remember why, but rather than buy from StrapCode's website, I bought from them through Amazon. Here's a link - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ALDJ600/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1.

That's your basic Oyster-style bracelet for a Seiko with 20mm lugs.

Overall:

Pros
+ Solid build
+ Screw-bar attached removable links
+ Decent clasp (essentially no different than the one we've used.)

Cons
- Polished link sides

Depends
+/- (?) "Thicker" links (compared to the stock NTH bracelet on the Subs).

I never tried the bracelets on whatever Seiko model they were meant for, but my guess would be the end-links were shaped to sit flush with the Seiko's lugs, so, like I said, the links sat a little recessed below the Subs' lugs, which never bothered me much, and seems like it works out well enough for Rolex.

Amusing side-note: I found it ironic when someone re-posted one of my pics of a prototype on the StrapCode bracelet over in the public forum, where Rolex is revered, yet more than one person criticized the step-down from the lugs to the end-links, apparently forgetting Rolex bracelets are the same way.

What's to say about the clasp? It's your standard, ubiquitous, double-locking folding dive watch clasp, similar, if not identical to ours, and Seiko's and dozens of others. The worst thing I've heard about it is sometimes the safety catch needs a bit of a squeeze to keep from popping open while on the wrist. First world problems, to be sure.

I hated the polished link sides, but a scotchbrite pad and a bit of elbow-grease can sort that out.

After reading (and being sucked into) various debates about bracelet-link thickness, I looked into the matter with a bit of hands-on research, and discovered two things:

1. Lots of people equate "thicker" links with "better" quality. Lots of people are wrong, because...

2. Link thickness is almost always 25% of case thickness, give or take, so a thinner case is very likely to have a thinner bracelet, as it should be. Link thickness in no way correlates to quality of construction, regardless of people's personal/subjective preferences.

So...the Subs' bracelet's links are thinner, but other than a few guys who apparently get sliced to ribbons just by looking at them, I believe they're well-made, well-finished, and of good quality. Your mileage may vary.

The StrapCode bracelet's links are thicker, so the whole thing is going to be heavier, and may not be ideally suited to the Subs' thinner/lighter case, but people may differ about that. I think their quality is acceptable for the price. I believe our bracelet quality is a tad better, but I have zero desire to argue with anyone about it. I'm content to let people form their own opinions on the matter.

For $60, the StrapCode is hard to argue with.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Strapcode is awesome!! I have a couple of their bracelets including a Miltat PVD on my Franken-Huey!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Is it really 14mm thick, though? I saw a review which said it was 13mm, but it wouldn't be the first time a review got it wrong.
> 
> Does it NEED to be that thick (13mm, or 14mm)? Not necessarily, but maybe.
> 
> With the thin bezel, you get a wider crystal. As crystal diameter and water resistance increase, so does the need for a thicker crystal. Caseback likewise increases in thickness with higher WR.


Evant themselves quote 13mm, which seems to be parroted in most reviews. However, this reviewer actually used his own calipers to check, and it came in at over 14mm when you include the domed crystal which I'm guessing Evant is not. I would guess the case itself is probably something like 13.7-9mm, and they opted to round down. It definitely looks taller than 13mm. 




The Cascais has a similarly thin bezel and a huge crystal, and Borealis was able to do 12.5mm at 30ATM with the STP. I don't know how that movement compares to the ETA, but I definitely wouldn't be shocked if Evant could've shaved at least a half mm (and even that would've helped) if they really wanted to. Even as is the height isn't the end of the world, it's that lug profile and positioning of the lug holes that really hurts as that exaggerates the height of the case, and that was _definitely _avoidable.

You do make a good point about the old Breguet though, I haven't seen any shots of it with the caseback on, only off.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Evant themselves quote 13mm, which seems to be parroted in most reviews. However, this reviewer actually used his own calipers to check, and it came in at over 14mm when you include the domed crystal which I'm guessing Evant is not. I would guess the case itself is probably something like 13.7-9mm, and they opted to round down. It definitely looks taller than 13mm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Carlos is slicing and dicing if he got the Cascais down to 12.5 with the diameter of that crystal. Hats off.

Does the Event have a big bubble crystal? I wonder how much clearance they had for the hands under it, and if they could have shrunk the case walls a bit to lower it.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Carlos is slicing and dicing if he got the Cascais down to 12.5 with the diameter of that crystal. Hats off.
> 
> Does the Event have a big bubble crystal? I wonder how much clearance they had for the hands under it, and if they could have shrunk the case walls a bit to lower it.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Definitely no bubble, just a very slight dome. The chapter ring is also pretty short, shorter I think than the Nacken and Cascais (though it's hard to tell exactly because there's so much distortion on the edge) and a bit taller than the Seawolf which has a very thin crystal.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Happy Fannum Phrydae!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

docvail said:


> I can't remember why, but rather than buy from StrapCode's website, I bought from them through Amazon. Here's a link - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ALDJ600/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1.
> 
> That's your basic Oyster-style bracelet for a Seiko with 20mm lugs.
> <snip>


I love that bracelet on an 8926.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Regarding the PAM topic, I'll just leave this here, Doug's 41mm take on it. It is very wearable, especially love his take on the case design. I'd be curious to see your take on it doc 









Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Wimads said:


> Regarding the PAM topic, I'll just leave this here, Doug's 41mm take on it. It is very wearable, especially love his take on the case design. I'd be curious to see your take on it doc
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This with a SLC dial designed by NTH and I'd be so in it  --- "i got an idea..." 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HAGWE errbody!



















All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> HAGWE errbody!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I notice you're carefully viewing the fitness center safely through glass. Wouldn't want to get too close. :-d

And I hate effing burpees. :-|

Oh, and nice watch. |>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> I notice you're carefully viewing the fitness center safely through glass. Wouldn't want to get too close. :-d
> 
> And I hate effing burpees. :-|
> 
> Oh, and nice watch. |>


I skipped mon-tues-wed class, but went yesterday and today. They made me pay for my delinquency.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

I'm just gonna sip a cocktail and go boom-chikka-wah-wah...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> I'm just gonna sip a cocktail and go boom-chikka-wah-wah...


Is that a euphemism for something, or are you just sitting there making those sounds between sips of booze?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My lawyer had an interesting comment regarding people who expect free watches or discounts in exchange for doing reviews. I guess I know what I'll be saying in my responses to these people, in the future...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Any chance you know the name of the (future) store?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk





docvail said:


> Watch Wonderland?
> 
> Something like that.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Went back and looked. It is indeed Watch Wonderland.

Apparently they're planning to open on October 1st. I didn't catch the name of the mall, but apparently it's some high-end place in Singapore.


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

Just opened my Orthos II Blue. Love it - the Blue dial is far enough away from the purple to warrant having both.

Now doc; by saying these comments up front - can I get my free watch now ;-) :-d ;-)

Screw the fact that you're watches are worth every penny and that you have reward points to sweeten things - clearly I'm worthy of a free watch as I'm currently writing this whilst standing on my elbow and juggling Orthos' Commander's, Cerberus', Phantom's, etc. 

You should see my watch review writing skilz. For 1 free watch will ensure I tell at least 3 people that I now have a watch and it's gud :roll:

Seriously doc, I don't envy you, having to deal with so many Muppets.


----------



## carlitoswhey (Jun 26, 2017)

docvail said:


> I mean...how clear can I make it that I'm not the least bit concerned with what anyone thinks of me?
> 
> I make a good product, sell it at a fair price, and back it up with stellar service.
> 
> The entertaining wall-of-text posts are just a bonus for you all.


Wall of jpegs of text is an innovation as well.

:thumbsup:

Seriously, I only posted to compliment you for correctly spelling "spiel" in your email to that guy. Reminded me of a funny incident I had on a trip to Austria as a teenager.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## l3wy (Jun 16, 2012)

Picked up an Antilles from lactardjosh 

Even though I lost a finger to my tiny screw driver of mutilation while resizing the beads of frustration bracelet, I have to say I'm very happy with the watch. And I love how the job you did with the inner bezel and it's crown operation, smooth and no extra play to it. Where you turn it to it is where it stays. Perfect.









Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Apparently there's an awful lot of companies violating FTC laws then. I'm not very familiar with how the watch reviewing game works, but I do know the audio component reviewing game pretty well. The guys at Stereophile, The Absolute Sound etc are not paying anywhere _close _to full retail when they opt to buy samples from companies, and that fact is NEVER disclosed to readers. It's also pretty common for manufacturers to send something out to one of them for an "extended vacation" from the factory, right up until the next $50K amplifier shows up from somebody else. Then it goes back.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

l3wy said:


> Picked up an Antilles from lactardjosh
> 
> Even though I lost a finger to my tiny screw driver of mutilation while resizing the beads of frustration bracelet, I have to say I'm very happy with the watch. And I love how the job you did with the inner bezel and it's crown operation, smooth and no extra play to it. Where you turn it to it is where it stays. Perfect.
> 
> ...


And as a bonus, when you add the 12 bezel numbers to the 12 hours on the dial, it's a 24-hour watch, eh, Marshall?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Apparently there's an awful lot of companies violating FTC laws then. I'm not very familiar with how the watch reviewing game works, but I do know the audio component reviewing game pretty well. The guys at Stereophile, The Absolute Sound etc are not paying anywhere _close _to full retail when they opt to buy samples from companies, and that fact is NEVER disclosed to readers. It's also pretty common for manufacturers to send something out to one of them for an "extended vacation" from the factory, right up until the next $50K amplifier shows up from somebody else. Then it goes back.
> 
> View attachment 12509417


There are guys on Facebook saying similar things, about the audio or tech products industries.

I don't know what to tell you. I'm not into that stuff, I don't follow that stuff, don't read about that stuff, etc. All I know is what my lawyer said. He's a law-yer. They know things. Things like, uhm, the law.

What I know is this stuff. I know there's a lot of piece-of-dung guys who are actually "real" bloggers, who play games, and want to be paid for playing them.

They don't get a thin red cent out of me, you can be assured.

As for the wannabes...I try to remember there was a time when I was just starting out, and I should never forget what that was like, so it's good to give a startup blogger a chance every so often. My results have been mixed.

I sometimes send samples out to guys I'll cherry-pick, based on their social media following size, or for various other reasons, and as many people know, it's not uncommon for me to send stuff out on "whirled tour" with the fanmen.

Aside from telling guys up front when there's something wrong with a proto, something we plan to fix in production, I've NEVER even _suggested_ to any of these guys that they have to be positive in what they say. I know my product is good - I want the world to know it, and it's easier for the world to believe when I'm not the only one saying it. If people would just believe me, I could keep all these watches in my office and not bother with the stupid mail.

I get all those pieces back, without fail, unless someone really wants to buy one of them, and I'm willing to sell it, but no one ever gets any deal which remotely resembles a quid-pro-quo in the slightest. I've given some guys a bit of a deal after the fact, because I take care of people, and blogging is something a lot of guys do for nothing more than the opportunity to take something for a test drive for a few weeks. I've never once told any of them I planned to do it before they posted their reviews.

About six months ago, I started telling my fellow micro-brand owners when a reviewer stepped out of line in our communications, or burned me in any way. Call me a "dlck" because I don't want to send you a sample, and you won't take the hint? I burn you with my friends. You'll never get a review sample from any of them.

Step way over the line, and make a veiled threat towards me, or otherwise lose your mind, I go "scorched earth" on you. Your name, email address, and our entire exchange ends up on my Facebook profile, visible to the entire planet. You'll be wanting to delete your profile within 24 hours, after you've been savaged by 50 of my followers, all fellow watch-geeks, "real" bloggers, fellow micro brand owners, etc.

That exchange I posted the other day - it must have had a hundred comments under it within 6 hours, including a dozen micro-brand owners. I sent the guy a link. He begged me to remove his name. Only after he realized he was a jerk did he want to apologize. Internet tough guys - this is how I treat them.

Nope. That's what you get for plssing in my inbox, pal. Feel the burn. You're now an object lesson in how not to act, for every other would-be reviewer who thinks about getting stupid with me via email or instant message.

Like a lawyer friend of mine* says, "govern yourself accordingly".

*Actually, it's UVALaw who says that. He is a lawyer, but I'm not sure he's a friend, or that he even likes me, which is why I'm stealing his phrase. Screw him.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Aside from telling guys up front when there's something wrong with a proto, something we plan to fix in production, I've NEVER even _suggested_ to any of these guys that they have to be positive in what they say. I know my product is good - I want the world to know it, and it's easier for the world to believe when I'm not the only one saying it. If people would just believe me, I could keep all these watches in my office and not bother with the stupid mail.
> 
> I get all those pieces back, without fail, unless someone really wants to buy one of them, and I'm willing to sell it, but no one ever gets any deal which remotely resembles a quid-pro-quo in the slightest.


I wish more companies operated this way. None of my watches are _perfect. _I don't review them for anyone, but if I did, I would have criticisms of all of them. It would be nice if the SKX came with the 4R36 so you could hand wind it. The Cascais has a bit of slop in the bezel action. The Zodiac's crown is annoying. The Evant Tropic is too tall, and the lug design is off. The Nacken....ummm....is kind of hard to criticize. It's pretty damn good. I guess I wouldn't mind a bit more positive action from the bezel, it doesn't quite click into place with the solidity of the Evant or Cascais (which will admittedly then roll back a bit if you push it in the other direction). Oh, and I guess I would've preferred a sunburst dial (if only...)

Seiko could care less what I have to say I'm sure, but I would hope the other guys that aren't humongous watch brands would be able to take criticism. I'm always mistrustful when I see something that *only* has glowing reviews with no critiques or suggestions for improvements (even if said improvements would be impossible to implement). We'll see how the Visitor VPO does when it arrives. I'm reaaaallly hoping I can stop at six, but I doubt that will happen.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Went back and looked. It is indeed Watch Wonderland.
> 
> Apparently they're planning to open on October 1st. I didn't catch the name of the mall, but apparently it's some high-end place in Singapore.


Awesome, thanks! I assume it's either Millenia or Marina Bay, but half of Singapore is a high-end mall, so who knows. But the country is small enough that there's probably only one place called that. Thanks for checking on the store name.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Found a pic of a naked Evant. Can you tell me what I'm looking at here Doc? Could they have cut that down?


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> I don't know what to tell you. I'm not into that stuff, I don't follow that stuff, don't read about that stuff, etc. All I know is what my lawyer said. He's a law-yer. They know things. Things like, uhm, the law.


First, I'm with you about how you've dealt with the jerk wanting a freebie... Now, as for "compensated reviews"... They are a well known legit thing -- provided that the reviewer states up front that they got a freebie or at a discount.

There's at least one major watch review site that has a price-list for "reviews" (actually they get paid to print what you tell them, and supposedly state it's not a review or some such wording or title --- whatever, I think they make those paid press-release-as-articles look too much like a regular review). See The Problem with Watch Payola

But lots and lots of companies do it on all sorts of products over at Amazon. Again, so long as your review makes clear what your compensation was. I know because I once got a product at a discount if I'd post an honest review and didn't make that clear enough to Amazon at the top (I changed it to be clear). My review was "ok, but..." and was completely honest.


----------



## l3wy (Jun 16, 2012)

docvail said:


> And as a bonus, when you add the 12 bezel numbers to the 12 hours on the dial, it's a 24-hour watch, eh, Marshall?


I'm not giving up that easily  .. but maybe if you made a GMT... .. maybe.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I wish more companies operated this way. None of my watches are _perfect. _I don't review them for anyone, but if I did, I would have criticisms of all of them. It would be nice if the SKX came with the 4R36 so you could hand wind it. *The Cascais has a bit of slop in the bezel action.* The Zodiac's crown is annoying. The Evant Tropic is too tall, and the lug design is off. The Nacken....ummm....is kind of hard to criticize. It's pretty damn good. *I guess I wouldn't mind a bit more positive action from the bezel, it doesn't quite click into place with the solidity of the Evant or Cascais (which will admittedly then roll back a bit if you push it in the other direction)*. Oh, and I guess I would've preferred a sunburst dial (if only...)
> 
> Seiko could care less what I have to say I'm sure, but I would hope the other guys that aren't humongous watch brands would be able to take criticism. I'm always mistrustful when I see something that *only* has glowing reviews with no critiques or suggestions for improvements (even if said improvements would be impossible to implement). We'll see how the Visitor VPO does when it arrives. I'm reaaaallly hoping I can stop at six, but I doubt that will happen.


Here's the deal on the bezels:

Someone on this board owns an NTH Sub, the Commander 300/Orthos II, and the Cascais. If not, someone's going to have the first two, plus a DevilRay. If not, well, I own the first two, and I've got the DevilRay protos, so I'm able to compare them, which I've done, and found varying levels of feel and slop.

What do all these models have in common? They all use the same. exact. bezel mechanism.

What's different about all of them? The bezel diameter.

There are 120 teeth machined into the underside of the bezel, and a click spring plate sitting underneath, with tabs that stick up. When the tabs snap into place, you get your click, and they prevent the bezel from being turned the other way.

As your bezel diameter decreases, the width of those teeth decreases, and there's less torque/leverage working against the spring plate tabs. The two combined give you less "slop" in the bezel's rotation, but also subdue the action of the tabs.

As your bezel diameter increases, the width of those teeth increases, and there's more torque/leverage working against the spring plate tabs, so you tend to get a little more slop - increasing in direct proportion to the diameter - but a bit more positive feel.

This isn't something which can be "fixed" without changing the bezel mechanism to something different, which brings with it other trade-offs. Nor is it an indication of quality. It's math and physics.

I won't mention names, but there are some popular micros whose watches use a different, cheaper-to-produce mechanism, one with a different feel and frequently less slop, but it's also less stable, and the parts more finicky. You'll frequently get vertical bounce in the bezel, rusted or snapped springs, and fixing them is harder to do.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Found a pic of a naked Evant. Can you tell me what I'm looking at here Doc? Could they have cut that down?
> 
> View attachment 12509783


Hard to tell for sure.

What jumps out at me is how deep the threads of the caseback go/how deep into that case the movement assembly sits. It looks odd to me.

Maybe they made it a lot thicker than it needed to be? I can't imagine why they would. In my limited experience, when the engineers push for things which increase overall thickness, they tend to be looking for more thickness in critical components like crystal or caseback, or more clearance for moving parts, like the clearance of the hands under the crystal.

For some reason, "thicker crystals" seem to be de rigueur among micros making dive watches, some of whom will advertise a thick-as-a-sandwich crystal, as if it makes the whole thing better, rather than just thicker.

Looking at this, unless the case back is super-thick, it would appear that there's a lot of airspace between the case back and the movement assembly, which doesn't really do anything, I don't think. I'm not sure more threads equals more WR, or if they do, that this many would be required to meet the WR rating they advertise.

It looks weird to me, yes, but I'm still just speculating.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fearlessleader said:


> First, I'm with you about how you've dealt with the jerk wanting a freebie... Now, as for "compensated reviews"... *They are a well known legit thing* -- provided that the reviewer states up front that they got a freebie or at a discount.


Is it well known? That's unproven. Many people may know it, but no one can say how many others do not. I daresay many people have no idea.

Is it legit? Debatable.

Guys who write for auto magazines are compensated to review cars, by the magazines, not the car companies. If the car companies are paying them, the law requires that to be disclosed, in order for it to be LEGAL, but that doesn't make it LEGIT.

How "legit" can the review be if the company which produced the product is paying the reviewer to do the review? How often do you think the reviewer is going to be critical?



fearlessleader said:


> There's *at least one major watch review site that has a price-list for "reviews"* (actually they get paid to print what you tell them,


A Blog to Watch has "sponsored content". It's labeled "sponsored content" right at top and/or with a disclosure at bottom. We can argue over how "prominent" that is, but it's there. Regardless, it's often written by the owner or an employee of a brand, so...it's often pretty obvious.

To my knowledge, A Blog to Watch does NOT charge to do reviews. They've reviewed some of my watches, and I didn't pay them a dime. I got the samples back, so there were no free watches. None of those reviewers bought one, and I never offered any of them a discount prior to doing their review.

I've given A Blog to Watch and Wrist Watch Review one (1) watch each, to use for a prize in a giveaway for their readers. The timing of the giveaways was so detached from the timing of the reviews, it would be difficult for anyone to argue there was some connection of intent between them.

I advertise with a banner ad on Wrist Watch Review, and the Time Bum, which also happen to be two of the primary blogs I work with. I pay for advertising with them because I want to support honest journalism.

One could argue that there must be some understood quid-pro-quo. I'm paying for advertising. Surely that must grant me greater access, and ensure positive reviews.

Both blogs reviewed watches of mine long before I paid for advertising, so there's a history of honest reviews with no possible bias.

If companies like mine don't support honest journalism, then, logically, there will only be dishonest journalism, no?

James Henderson at Tempus Fugit is militant about his independence, refusing to review anything for any of his paid sponsors. I admire that, even though it's kept me from buying a banner ad on his site - because I'd rather he do an honest review.

John Biggs at Wrist Watch Review openly published the "rate sheet" given to another micro by Worn & Wound, a blog I no longer work with, for that and other reasons, even though I'm friends with contributor (and WUS moderator) Brad Homes, who I absolutely believe is doing honest journalism, despite the dubious integrity of that blog's management, and the shadow of doubt hovering over much of their content.



fearlessleader said:


> and *supposedly state it's not a review or some such wording or title*


See above.



fearlessleader said:


> --- whatever, *I think they make those paid press-release-as-articles look too much like a regular review*). See The Problem with Watch Payola


See above.



fearlessleader said:


> But *lots and lots of companies do it on all sorts of products over at Amazon*.


Do they?

I never did, when I was selling on Amazon.

I know there's an entire industry built around writing bogus reviews, both positive and negative, in order to help or hurt sales on sites like Amazon.



fearlessleader said:


> Again, so long as your review makes clear what your compensation was.


...?

Not sure where you were going there.

This is all getting way too hypothetical, past the point where I care about what's being discussed.

I care specifically about MY business, MY industry, and what the people in it do. I don't cotton to social media "influencers", paid reviewers, and their ilk, and I don't respect my peers who play their games.

My lawyer tells me that it's illegal for a reviewer to not disclose any compensation they received to do a review. Are you a lawyer? No? Well then, I think I'll stick with my lawyer's advice.

Remember that tedious, protracted argument you and I had about design patents, back in the last Micros in Hong Kong thread, and your insistence that Chip could have pursued a design patent for his watch designs, because there's such a thing as design patents?

Please stop arguing with me about legal matters which pertain to my business. Trust me, I'm 1000% correct when I weigh in on these matters. I wouldn't weigh in if I wasn't absolutely certain, and I don't appreciate obtuse arguments to the contrary. If I'm unsure of the legality involved, I'll consult with my attorney.



fearlessleader said:


> I know because I once got a product at a discount if I'd post an honest review and didn't make that clear enough to Amazon at the top (I changed it to be clear). *My review was "ok, but..." and was completely honest.*


Being paid in cash or given a product for review is legal, so long as it's disclosed in the review.

Being paid in cash or given a product in exchange for a POSITIVE review is also legal, so long as it's disclosed.

When have you ever seen a review which stated, "I was paid in cash/given this product in exchange for saying nice things about it, regardless of what I actually think"?

You never have, and you never will, yet it happens all the time.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

The "Bezel Click Satisfaction" debate affects all makes of watch, as testified by this owner's review:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/sinn-u1-what-most-people-dont-understand-about-sinn-4402650.html

I read this post a couple of months ago and thoroughly enjoyed the reviewers story relating to answers to his questions given by the manufacturer. It was most enlightening, not just for the "Bezel Click" saga but also for the "Lume Loon" quandary as well. The whole post is worth reading. As for the "Bezel Click" story, here is the relevant WOT from the post:

"Another example I can give from the top of my head is about my former nemesis: bezel play!
It's true that the bezel on my Black Bay felt like heaven. It was just a pleasure to operate. But boy, once either the watch or my hands (Lord behold, or even both) came in contact with the slightest amount of water, the bezel jammed regularly and I simply couldn't even get a grip on it. That makes it useless for actual diving if you ask me, as a nonprofessional diver. 
Now looking at my U1, yes, the bezel has play in every direction and it doesn't feel nearly as satisfying to play with it but it is THE perfect bezel for actual diving.
Just like the lume of Sinn watches, the bezel is just thought out all the way through.
After asking Mr. Schonefeld about the function of the bezel, he again revealed to me what Sinn had to incorporate into their design, in order to create, in my opinion, the perfect dive watch bezel.
First of all the bezel has to be operable at any time, in even the harshest environments and maybe even with the thickest gloves on. That's why Sinn designed the bezels on their diver's watches to be a tad looser so that the diver can operate the bezel using one thumb only. That's also the reason for these pill-shaped cutouts on the edge of the bezel. Apparently they turned out to offer the best grip in even the most severe conditions.
I can also confirm that out of all my watches, the bezel on my U1 is by far the easiest to operate at any given moment. Furthermore, a little bit of room or play under the bezel is needed so that dirt, salt - or even ice crystals won't build up as easily, which might, in the end, lead to an inoperable bezel. Needless to say that no serious diver or operator would ever want that to happen. While enabling all these features listed above, the bezel is still extremely secure and mine has never moved unintentionally.
Simply put: Sinn's bezels are designed for real divers. How often did the bezels on my other watches get stuck after swimming in the ocean? I stopped counting by now. I mean yes, that was always fixable by putting the watch in a sink full of warm water back in the hotel room, but right "in the field'" the bezel was useless often times.
So please keep that in mind when buying a Sinn watch as I've heard even very seasoned watch reviewers complain about the odd bezel action. "

Of course, we all love that gentle resistance, firm click and no-play feel of a bezel action, but the above does give an alternative outcome for a bezel fitment. Also, it highlights one of the manifold design compromises that have to be answered during the design and run-up stage of any new watch and it's final intended use by the customer. Who'd be a watch designer...........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> ...stuff about Sinn's bezels...........
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


Interesting. Thanks for posting that, Alan.

I admit it, I've felt the slop in Sinn bezels, and been aghast by it, especially considering their price. We can't know if all the justification is legit, or merely fabricated excuses, but I'm willing to take all that at face value, and treat it as true.

It doesn't change two inescapable facts, though.

1. Sinn's aren't cheap. Anyone who's never been diving in a harsh environment and needed their bezel to operate regardless is more likely to feel the bezel and be disgusted by the slop, especially knowing what they cost.

2. My customers and WIS online are merciless in their criticism of the most minute details, especially with watches from micro-brands, which inevitably get held to a higher standard. If I produced a watch with that same sort of bezel slop, I'd be crucified by the online rabble, regardless of what they cost.

(3. I still wouldn't mind owning a Sinn 857, even though I love my Scorpene, but I'd never pay what it costs to buy one, even used.)


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Yup, Those Sinn do come at a trouser troubling price - wickedly cool looking tho', 'specially that U1. Continuing the minute detail angle, I posted this on another thread earlier today, again Sinn were the implicated manufacturer:

Thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/helgray-think-twice-4533583-2.html

My post:

"Unwanted inclusions can happen at any price point and QC levels:"

https://www.watchuseek.com/f24/debating-sending-my-u1-pro-remove-speck-underneath-crystal-just-happened-4531773.html

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Yup, Those Sinn do come at a trouser troubling price - wickedly cool looking tho', 'specially that U1. Continuing the minute detail angle, I posted this on another thread earlier today, again Sinn were the implicated manufacturer:
> 
> Thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/helgray-think-twice-4533583-2.html
> 
> ...


Interesting/agreed.

When it comes to defects versus price paid, my views are nuanced.

Any company can miss something like a speck of dust under the crystal. First, there's no such thing as 100% effective QC, 100% of the time. Something can always get through. Otherwise, why have a returns policy for such things?

Price has nothing to do with this, beyond a certain point. If you pay the lowest possible cost for QC, you'll likely get the worst results. But your results don't continue to improve in a linear way, as you pay more for that task. Beyond a certain point, you're just p1ss1ing money away, as a manufacturer.

But, when it comes to gray-area things, like minor mis-alignments, uneven lume, and anything else which might or might not "slip" through QC, and customers might or might not accept, I think it's reasonable for customers to expect more as price goes up, and for companies to deliver it.

If I'm producing 300 watches, using outsourced manufacturing and assembly, and selling them for $500, I think people should understand that we can't guarantee 100% perfection and 100% uniformity (i.e. - they're all identical) across the entire production run, even if we're routinely achieving 99.5% perfection and uniformity across 95%-99% of all productions. To me, complaining about a slightly mis-aligned bezel in a $300 watch with all the specs and components of a $1500 watch is just unreasonable, period.

If we have a bezel mis-aligned by a hair, we have to consider the added cost involved in eradicating all such things - re-assembling, or just tossing the watch in a dumpster and replacing it with another.

But, if you're buying a Rolex for $10k, c'mon, you want perfection, no?

The irony is that many of those "luxury" brands don't consistently deliver it, even with their comparatively huge markups and margins. Many of them could certainly afford to toss a watch in a dumpster more readily than I can.

It is a continuing frustration of mine (and many micros) to be consistently held to a higher standard than luxury brands selling watches costing much more, brands operating with far greater resources, and much higher ability to deliver a superior product, yet don't, and to hear people constantly gripe about our prices, when we consider this.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

docvail said:


> And as a bonus, when you add the 12 bezel numbers to the 12 hours on the dial, it's a 24-hour watch, eh, Marshall?





l3wy said:


> I'm not giving up that easily  .. but maybe if you made a GMT... .. maybe.


I think I have a solution... World Timer.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Spot on about complaints.....

I began in the watch field acquiring some high end and luxury watches. I had an hour marker fall out of a highly recognized Swiss brand. When it was corrected (which took a very long time in switzerland), it was slightly misaligned. I delt with it for various reasons. When i found f71, I was shocked at the value and exclusivity of son of the micros, and appreciate their offerings. Similarly, my cousin Vinnie (once again) owns at least 20 luxury (Some might even call some of his high end) watches until he saw my Santa Cruz. He bought one on the spot and has not taken it off his wrist yet. He is stunned with the quality at the price, and is constantly posting pics near the luxury yachts he sells (Vincent martone facebook). He has already said he is going to get a baracuda AND devil Ray because of how impressed he is. I think some WIS have unrealistic expectations, anf I often think those use to higher costing watches may appreciate the value of affordables and microbrands more than some who are immersed solely and deeply in the affordable and ultraaffordables.

Just my random thoughts.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Yup, Those Sinn do come at a trouser troubling price - wickedly cool looking tho', 'specially that U1. Continuing the minute detail angle, I posted this on another thread earlier today, again Sinn were the implicated manufacturer:
> 
> Thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/helgray-think-twice-4533583-2.html
> 
> ...


Ugh, I just went and read that thread, or at least, the first page of comments, and skimmed the rest.

So...dust under the crystal of a titanium watch purchased for $129?

This is why I don't sell watches below a certain price. No matter what someone pays, they want it to be right. Are you willing to accept 40% less quality or 40% more issues in a $300 watch compared to a $500 watch? I'd bet nobody is. This is one of many reasons why I think under-pricing is the worst thing a micro-brand startup can do.

The "problem" for me and other manufacturers is that if you have X% of your production with issues like this, the return for repair costs are the same, regardless of what the watch cost to make or what you sold it for. The fixed costs like this, on low-price watches are a margin-killer.

I can afford to offer amazing service when I'm charging $500 and selling 300 watches. It's impossible for me to offer the same level of service to 500 people who only paid $300 - the math doesn't work out, and there aren't enough hours in the day. It's the same revenue in both cases - $150,000, but if the production costs are the same, and the return for repair rate is the same, one scenario makes a profit, and the other is a net loss. There's no "making it up on volume" in this game, just like there's no "cutting out the middle-man".

On the one hand, it's a $129 titanium watch. What do you expect, in terms of product quality, and customer service?

There's a prominent seller of mechanical Chinese watches, based in Hong Kong, who puts right on his website a blurb about $120-$130 watches possibly arriving with the hands fallen off the center pinion, and he's not taking them back for repair, or paying for the repair to be done locally.

I admire that sort of chutzpah, but I don't have to imagine the reaction people have when they're the ones who get a dud. There was a forum member here, based in Europe, who waged a protracted campaign to make people aware of his dealings with the Hong Kong seller.

Get one with ejected hands? Have it repaired locally, at your own cost. I understand the OP in that thread would be miffed having to pay someone to blow out that spec of dust for him, but that's a 5 minute, $25 job, tops. It's a quicker resolution than dealing with Helgray's returns support or a credit card dispute.

On the other hand, and I hesitate to weigh in with an opinion about a competitor, but I'll make an exception here - it's Helgray. There are many threads about the customer support experiences of their customers, and customers of their sister brands, Makara, Redwood, and Rosling & Co. I'm not surprised to read they've been unresponsive.

I'm sure there are people who don't realize the company isn't known for stellar support, but anyone who does, and buys anyway, should reasonably be assuming some level of risk in that transaction.

I think if that's how they run their business, they should just make every sale final, buy at your own risk, like the guy from Hong Kong. At that point, at least people have less reason to complain, just like people don't have much of a leg to stand on when I won't take back a watch for replacement or refund once it's been worn. It's not only a fair policy, it's prominently/clearly disclosed on our site.

This past week, I probably received a half dozen requests for support about a variety of issues. Every one of them got a response within 24 hours, most of them within minutes, if I happened to be at my desk, and we're working on a resolution in each case, including sending some of them paid return shipping labels so we can repair the watches, issuing full refunds in some cases, and making arrangements to have the repairs done locally, but at our expense. It takes time, and costs money, but I can spend that time and money because I'm charging enough for what I sell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On an unrelated topic...curious how you all would react, or how you think most WIS would react, to a watch with an odd-ball water resistance rating?

Instead of 200/300/500m WR, what if a watch had 187/243/387m WR, or some other random, not round number, something which couldn't also be expressed as a round number in feet, or any other unit of measurement?

Before giving a rational answer, like, "it wouldn't bother me", please imagine the hypothetical thread about it, here on WUS.

My hunch is some, perhaps many people would be bothered by it, but I could be wrong.

I ask because WR drives case thickness, so you get watches that are thick because they need to be, in order to reach the desired spec.

But what if I were to design a watch with a rigid limit on thickness, and the WR is just whatever we can achieve within that dimension, given the diameter and materials used?

If you were me, how do you think you'd communicate with the public about it?



All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

I'd round down to the nearest 50 and list the true WR in the fine print. 187 becomes 150, 213 becomes 200.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I found some sort of alien substance under my crystal







Possibly alien snot? :think:
I think a %153 refund is order. I'll be contacting my states attorney and NASA regarding this issue.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> On an unrelated topic...curious how you all would react, or how you think most WIS would react, to a watch with an odd-ball water resistance rating?
> 
> Instead of 200/300/500m WR, what if a watch had 187/243/387m WR, or some other random, not round number, something which couldn't also be expressed as a round number in feet, or any other unit of measurement?
> 
> ...


It makes no difference to me but I can already hear heads popping from it.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I was about to jump in on that helgrey sale. Titanium for the price? Come on no brainer, but what stopped me was.. 
1: all the threads about poor customer service. 
2: it is not the blue watch I have been yearning for. (Damn you Doc and your sexah watch making visions.
3. It is a lot easier to save up a few more pennies and spend on that piece that takes your breath away ( again damn you Doc), then trying to figure out who you can pawn off the watch to when you realize it really is not that one.

As I have stated before, I am new to this WIS scene and a few months ago I would bought both the blue and orange colours right away. Now I am stuck with a few watches and no one to pawn them too, lol why bother? I keep em as a constant reminder to wait it out and get what you want.

I love my Hamilton watch but am starting to regret not grabbing a micro but I now know and can wait and get something well thought of and thoroughly planned out not to mention you truly are helping another working person out.

I find it funny that our species always whether it be clothing, cars, electronics, and watches/jewelry needs the next new thing. I am not sure if it is question for completion or keeping up with the Jones's, we all are never satisfied or at least to me seem that way. On the flip side if we were happy with what we had, we would not have such great looking micro out there.

Sorry for the rambling, maybe it's because of my self-induced alcohol prohibition but wanted to chime in.

Carry on brothers and sisters, enjoy your weekend and value each other. 

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



CDawson said:


> I'd round down to the nearest 50 and list the true WR in the fine print. 187 becomes 150, 213 becomes 200.


That didn't take long. I was thinking the same thing.

I suppose I might not even need to bother with the fine print disclosure of telling people the design actually exceeds specs, since I'm pretty sure most watches exceed them. But the Evant discussion got me thinking about the person who complains about the watch being thicker than it needs to be to achieve the lower, advertised number (not that I think that's what's going on with the Evant).

The Phantom and the NTH Subs both ended up thicker than I'd originally planned, in order to meet a desired spec. I was just thinking about the potential aftermath of sticking to a vision for the design, and having to accept a lower spec, perhaps some sort of oddball number.

If I didn't think to round down to the closest round number, I wonder how people would receive the knowledge that I was more concerned with the aesthetic of the design than the capabilities. If the Phantom was only 67m WR, because I wouldn't let it be more than 12mm thick, and wanted the case to have a certain shape, would people still get wrapped around the axle when they see that weird number, or would they understand and accept that function gave way to form?

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



CDawson said:


> I'd round down to the nearest 50 and list the true WR in the fine print. 187 becomes 150, 213 becomes 200.


What he said.

213m or comparable "odd" meter ratings AND your dog on the same dial? Come on...that's on the wrong side of the border...

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> If I didn't think to round down to the closest round number, I wonder how people would receive the knowledge that I was more concerned with the aesthetic of the design than the capabilities. If the Phantom was only 67m WR, because I wouldn't let it be more than 12mm thick, and wanted the case to have a certain shape, would people still get wrapped around the axle when they see that weird number, or would they understand and accept that function gave way to form?


I would have preferred a slimmer phantom even with 67,84m WR


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Round down to the nearest cool-looking number. Not necessarily 50/100/200, but if there's anything that looks cool, or looks cool in some other measurement system, go with that. Doubly so if you've got a good story about that number.

(Edit - but yeah in terms of pleasing the people here, best to stick with the basic divisions.)


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

SteamJ said:


> It makes no difference to me but I can already hears heads popping from it.


Probs because they went just a little bit too deep............

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Glylex (Jan 29, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> We'll see how the Visitor VPO does when it arrives. I'm reaaaallly hoping I can stop at six, but I doubt that will happen.


Man I thought I was crazy about that watch but I was just planning to get one. If you by chance should decide to let one of those go... :-d


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ......... I was more concerned with the aesthetic of the design than the capabilities. If the Phantom was only 67m WR, because I wouldn't let it be more than 12mm thick, and wanted the case to have a certain shape, would people still get wrapped around the axle when they see that weird number, or would they understand and accept that function gave way to form?


I ain't gonna wear no carbuncle on my wrist even if it says 1000atm on the dial. Without, er, deep diving into the whys and wherefores of watch-style/fashion/hipness, it's the form that bites us all initially, all of those depth numbers are just that, numbers and I defy any of your customers to show a picture of them wearing any of your watches over 20 fathoms down: Okay, there maybe a couple or three out there, but most of us are land based 99.9% of the time and we don't ever shower with our watch on. Besides, you can only ever see the numbers on the IG photos........

Create the best design watch first and match a depth to the form after the event, the Subs look awesome in no small part to the relatively slim case, was there ever a better looking all-round dive watch? Caiscais is there too and enough depth proofness to ward off a bad case of the narcs.

I nearly went for the Evant Fume the day it was released, a totally killer dial and bezel, but looking at the proportions, I just couldn't bring myself to buy it, it would "Look" all wrong, which brings me full circle, we buy the overall style and design - an NH35 inside will do just fine and forget those exhibition backs too.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I love the Visitor Vale Park Officer, and I like Phil, so I hope he does very well with them.

It's a great example of the total being more than the sum of its spec sheet.

Sure, some will say, "Bah! For that price, I want more than a Miyota 9015!" 

But they're doing a lot of customization with that rotor, and regardless of what movement is in it, that's not an inexpensive watch to produce, wasn't easy to design, and has a lot of really cool things going on. Plus, he won't be making them by the thousands. If people insisted on a more expensive movement, the price would only be higher. This is why I hate reading comments about not paying more than $____ for a watch with "only" a _____ movement in it. 

I'd happily pay $800 for it, before I'd pay $1200-$1500 for something like the mass-produced SevenFriday, a watch with a worse design and lower-level movement in it, but which inarguably sold really well, thanks to the overwhelming amount of hype surrounding it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> I ain't gonna wear no carbuncle on my wrist even if it says 1000atm on the dial. Without, er, deep diving into the whys and wherefores of watch-style/fashion/hipness, it's the form that bites us all initially, all of those depth numbers are just that, numbers and I defy any of your customers to show a picture of them wearing any of your watches over 20 fathoms down: Okay, there maybe a couple or three out there, but most of us are land based 99.9% of the time and we don't ever shower with our watch on. Besides, you can only ever see the numbers on the IG photos........
> 
> Create the best design watch first and match a depth to the form after the event, the Subs look awesome in no small part to the relatively slim case, was there ever a better looking all-round dive watch? Caiscais is there too and enough depth proofness to ward off a bad case of the narcs.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, and I suppose on some level, consciously or not, I've accepted the notion that I'm going to attract the customer who appreciates what we designed more than the customer who's buying specs. We'll attract the customer who wants the organic shapes and tidy dimensions more than the customer who likes a big, chunky, wrist-brick.

That said, I try to make the product as appealing to as wide a range of people as possible, by seeking the nexus of good design and the right specs/components. I suppose at some point I may have to go out of my way to design something specifically for the guys we haven't been able to attract, because we didn't make a big, chunky, over-spec'd wrist-brick.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Indeed Chris, those wrist-bricks exist for a reason, there is a demand for them and lots of people are happy wearing them and let's face it, the differences are what makes the World go 'round.

As for Visitor, probably the most eye-popping watches for years, absolutely inspired designs and I will probably cave-in eventually and pan-up for a VPO - even if it has a "hidden" exhibition back..... watches like that don't come by very often. If I do buy, deffo a "fake" invoice for my Dearest's scrutiny......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

Doc, as per some previous comments- if you could match up the WR with a cool/meaningful number, I think it would actually be a positive.

FWIW water resistance isn't that important to me on a watch (provided it can take a shower), so having a non-standard rating wouldn't bother me.

I SCUBA dive and can't remember the last time I've taken a watch underwater with me now. With the widespread use of good dive computers, I'd say most people dive with either 1 or 2 dedicated dive computers and often a backup dive timer/depth gauge (as a wrist-mounted single piece, rather than the archaic separate depth gauge & watch)

Although some do still wear watches diving, I'd say the vast majority of divers wouldn't (those I know who do, have an old g-shock or timex stowed in their dive pockets)


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> What do all these models have in common? They all use the same. exact. bezel mechanism.
> 
> What's different about all of them? The bezel diameter.
> 
> ...


Interesting!! I had no idea. I can say that I bought my SKX already modded with a Crystal Times coin-edge bezel, which sucked. It bounced up and down like a trampoline when turning it. That was one of the reasons I opted to convert it to a fixed bezel. I guess I also wouldn't mind if the lume on the indices was brighter (on mine, the hands and bezel are quite a bit brighter than the indices with a full charge) but I know there's only so much that can be done with BGW9. That's pretty much everything I can think of, you guys kind of nailed this thing.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> On an unrelated topic...curious how you all would react, or how you think most WIS would react, to a watch with an odd-ball water resistance rating?
> 
> Instead of 200/300/500m WR, what if a watch had 187/243/387m WR, or some other random, not round number, something which couldn't also be expressed as a round number in feet, or any other unit of measurement?
> 
> ...


I think it would bother me. As you know, 300M and 1000FT don't line up, and yet that's what my Nacken has printed on the dial, because it looks good. I've seen a watch... I totally forget which one, but I've seen it, that says 300M/984FT on it, and I thought it looked a little bit weird. That probably wouldn't stop me from buying it if I really wanted one though.

What I would probably suggest is to underrate your theoretical watch's depth capability to the nearest 00. If it can do 167M, rate it for 100M. I know there are some folks that moan about 10ATM not being good enough for a "real" dive watch, but there would probably be a lot more folks that would moan that the dial said 167M on it.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Glylex said:


> Man I thought I was crazy about that watch but I was just planning to get one. If you by chance should decide to let one of those go... :-d


Hahaha I meant six watches TOTAL, not six VPOs. I have my SKAlpinist mod, the Evant Tropic, NTH Nacken, the Zodiac Sealwolf, and the Borealis Cascais. The Visitor will make six. But my case will still have four empty slots after it arrives. This is a problem.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> I nearly went for the Evant Fume the day it was released, a totally killer dial and bezel, but looking at the proportions, I just couldn't bring myself to buy it, it would "Look" all wrong, which brings me full circle, we buy the overall style and design - an NH35 inside will do just fine and forget those exhibition backs too.


The main issue I have with it is the strap fit problem, and Dangerous9 is going to take care of that for me by custom making a strap to the exact proportions of the case, so it won't look like a grain silo from the side. Yes, this likely means a $240+ strap for a $475 watch. What can you do. In the case of the Evant, the NH35 would've bothered me as it's such an elegant design, and the 8-beat second hand helps with that. If they could've made it thinner by using a 9015 instead of the 2824 though, I would've definitely gone for that.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I love the Visitor Vale Park Officer, and I like Phil, so I hope he does very well with them.
> 
> It's a great example of the total being more than the sum of its spec sheet.
> 
> ...


TGV actually mentioned in his preview video of the VPO that he would've been willing to pay more for a fancier movement, but if the 9015 means that I could get one for $800 instead of $1K+, I'm more than happy to make that "sacrifice." What interests me about the watch isn't the movement, it's the amazing and incredibly unique shape of the case, the level of detail and finishing, which at least in pictures seems up there with watches at 3X the price, and that one of a kind dial. A COSC certified ETA in place of the Miyota on the other hand doesn't add any real value to me.


----------



## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

docvail said:


> On an unrelated topic...curious how you all would react, or how you think most WIS would react, to a watch with an odd-ball water resistance rating?
> 
> Instead of 200/300/500m WR, what if a watch had 187/243/387m WR, or some other random, not round number, something which couldn't also be expressed as a round number in feet, or any other unit of measurement?
> 
> ...


If it was a dive watch make sure it is over 200m....227.....241.......276......whatever as long as it is over 200........that seems to be the defacto standard for desk diving on WUS

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Interesting!! I had no idea. *I can say that I bought my SKX already modded with a Crystal Times coin-edge bezel, which sucked. It bounced up and down like a trampoline when turning it.* That was one of the reasons I opted to convert it to a fixed bezel. I guess I also wouldn't mind if the lume on the indices was brighter (on mine, the hands and bezel are quite a bit brighter than the indices with a full charge) but I know *there's only so much that can be done with BGW9*. That's pretty much everything I can think of, you guys kind of nailed this thing.


That's a shame. Bezel mechanics are one of the things Seiko typically excels at getting right.

BG W9 is one of the brighter lume colors. But lume brightness and duration is very much a 'your mileage my vary' thing, and I tend to discount people's anecdotal observations, in favor of Tritec's (makers of Superluminova) data and specs.

When it comes to people's real-world observations and opinions, initial brightness and duration are going to really vary with quantity of lume material, size and depth of the exposure area, age, length and intensity of charge, time of depletion, ambient light, human error in observation, variations in people's eyesight, and subjective bias/opinions.

As a manufacturer, I can only say a watch has C3 lume, or BG W9, or whatever. I can't guarantee anyone that it will be so many lumens bright for so many hours, or whatever, because it's all so dependent on factors the user controls, not the manufacturer.

It's sort of like, what shade of blue is the dial, is it white or silver, etc. Look at the pics, see for yourself. What do your own eyes tell you?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I think it would bother me. As you know, 300M and 1000FT don't line up, and yet that's what my Nacken has printed on the dial, because it looks good. I've seen a watch... I totally forget which one, but I've seen it, that says 300M/984FT on it, and I thought it looked a little bit weird. That probably wouldn't stop me from buying it if I really wanted one though.
> 
> What I would probably suggest is to underrate your theoretical watch's depth capability to the nearest 00. If it can do 167M, rate it for 100M. *I know there are some folks that moan about 10ATM not being good enough for a "real" dive watch, but there would probably be a lot more folks that would moan that the dial said 167M on it.*


This is the sort of analysis I try to use when making many decisions.

All other things being equal, should the case be 39mm or 40mm? It's only 1mm difference. Why is it such a struggle to decide such things?

There are probably more big-wristed guys who'll moan about (and not buy) a 39mm case than there are small-wristed guys who'll moan about (and not buy) a 40mm case.

It's not just about the size of one segment of the population, but the demonstrated propensity of that segment to moan about that which they don't like.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> TGV actually mentioned in his preview video of the VPO that he would've been willing to pay more for a fancier movement, but if the 9015 means that I could get one for $800 instead of $1K+, I'm more than happy to make that "sacrifice." What interests me about the watch isn't the movement, it's the amazing and incredibly unique shape of the case, the level of detail and finishing, which at least in pictures seems up there with watches at 3X the price, and that one of a kind dial. A COSC certified ETA in place of the Miyota on the other hand doesn't add any real value to me.


Here again, this is the sort of analysis involved in many of the decisions which go into product development.

When I realized what the unit cost of the Tropics was going to be - with a 9015 in it - I realized a lot of people would moan about it only having a 9015, so we put a Swiss movement in it, and raised the price some more to compensate.

My analysis was essentially this - the likely moaning about a $650 watch with a 9015 in it, coming from guys who don't want to pay that much for ANY watch with "only" a 9015 in it, would outweigh the moaning about a $700 watch with the STP, coming from guys who would have loved it if I'd put a Seiko NH35 in it, made it 1mm thicker, and sold it for $200 less.

That's why the protos had 9015's in them - we originally intended to use the 9015, but I realized that would have made it much harder to sell for the price I would need in order to justify production. It seemed to me that it was an easier sell at $700 with an STP than at $650 with a 9015, or at $500 with an NH35.

Honestly, the STP is nice, but I honestly prefer the 9015, all around, even with its quirks. I've never noticed the "noisy rotor", ever. The wobble doesn't bother me, in fact I kind of like it, as it reminds me I'm wearing a watch, and I look at how awesome it is. The winding is super-smooth. And we could have shaved 0.5mm out of the case thickness if we'd stuck with it, rather than adding 0.5mm to accommodate the STP.

But, for all those who put self-imposed limits on what they'll spend on a watch with "only" a _____ movement in it, and like to make everyone aware of it, perhaps to put pressure on manufacturers to lower prices, you see it has the opposite effect.

All we do (those of us who know what we're doing) is INCREASE the specs and components, in order to reach that ideal price vs specs point of equilibrium. The price goes UP, not down.

Congrats! You no longer have to pay me $500 for an awesome watch with "only" an NH35 in it. Now it's $700 for an awesome watch with an STP.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

valuewatchguy said:


> If it was a dive watch make sure it is over 200m....227.....241.......276......whatever as long as it is over 200........that seems to be the defacto standard for desk diving on WUS
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


Forget that the hypothetical watch might be a "diving" watch. Assume it isn't.

If I want to design a watch that's just 9mm thick, but that keeps water resistance from exceeding 89m, obviously it's risky for me to round up to 100m, and call it 10 ATM, to satisfy the guys who insist they "need" at least 10 ATM, because it might rain.

But if I round down, I'm essentially discounting more than 40% of the watch's capabilities in that regard, just so I can offer people with an aversion to un-round numbers a more eye-pleasing "50m / 5 ATM".

Again, this is the sort of analysis I'm always doing. If I have to increase the thickness to 9.35mm, in order to reach that better 10 ATM WR spec, perhaps that's better than holding fast to my desired 9mm thinness.

I imagine people would be more likely to forgive me for rounding 9.35mm down to "9mm" in the specs (I could give you all that tried and true "I wasn't including the crystal/case-back" nonsense) than rounding 89m up to 100m.

When we're developing a new model, we're trying to nail both the case dimensions - particularly thickness - AND the WR spec, but the WR spec is the one which never gets adjusted.

Like I said, I wanted the NTH Subs to be 11mm thick, not one iota more. But to reach 300m WR, we had to accept 11.5mm, and it could have been thicker, if we'd wanted a more pronounced raised/domed crystal, which I considered.

At one point I considered going all the way to 500m WR with them, but (and I absolutely hate to credit him with this), it was UVALaw who made the point that an 11.5mm thick 300m watch was more unusual, and would get more attention, than a 12.5mm thick 500m WR watch.

You know what's even more unusual (probably non-existent)? A 11mm thick watch with 275m WR.

But the reality is all these numbers, for all their roundness and ease of understanding - they're all arbitrary.

At some point in the past, someone decided how long a foot or a meter would be, and that was that. Now that we've got those units of measurement, manufacturers contort themselves into knots trying to get products to conform to people's preferences for nice, round numbers.

But 275m deep is still crazy deep, and 11mm is just as round a number as 300m, no?

Why is it we're more okay accepting a 11.5mm thick watch with 300m WR than an 11mm thick watch with 275m?

I'm making some of the numbers up, but hopefully you see my point.

The WR number is "functional", whereas the thickness is "aesthetic", but...are they? If nobody's using their diving watch for diving, why does the WR matter more than how easily the watch slips under a shirt sleeve, or how much of the case side is visible when you remove the bracelet and put it on a strap?

Which is the "REAL" functional number? One looks good on a dial. One looks good on the wrist.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

valuewatchguy said:


> If it was a dive watch make sure it is over 200m....227.....241.......276......whatever as long as it is over 200........that seems to be the defacto standard for desk diving on WUS
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


Except for Oris. They've taken a bit of flack for the 100M rating on the Divers 65, but I don't think it's actually hurt sales at all, and they had no problem selling through the $2,000 LE Topper version.


----------



## nagov (Mar 29, 2017)

Personally, I think as long as it was clearly explained on your website why it had 275 m instead of 300 m or whatever number, I could look easily look past it and accept it. Now that is just me.

If the number was divisible by 25, I probably wouldn't even notice to be honest. 275 seems just as normal as 150, or 250, 300 etc. If the number was something like 261.1 M, then it would raise more questions, but even that could be passed off as an interesting gimmick to "achieve design parameters" if you spun it right and honestly.

You know this better then most, watch people tend to be particular about all the tiny details, and you won't ever satisfy them all. Maybe some people will get hung up over it. Others will get hung up over thickness. More people in general try and fit a watch under a cuff comfortably then they do dive with them though. I like what you've done with the NTH watches, designing what you think is a good watch and then moving forward with that. If that next watch requires a specific thickness, but an unusual water resistance, I'd say go with it. I think you touched on it earlier, but who decides what is unusual water resistance anyways? Unusual is good, it is what propelled Nomos to where it's at today. 150m was unusual when 100m was the norm. Maybe you'll make the more accurate "divisible by 25" water resistance rating the new norm. Just how I see it.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Honestly, the STP is nice, but I honestly prefer the 9015, all around, even with its quirks. I've never noticed the "noisy rotor", ever. The wobble doesn't bother me, in fact I kind of like it, as it reminds me I'm wearing a watch, and I look at how awesome it is. The winding is super-smooth. And we could have shaved 0.5mm out of the case thickness if we'd stuck with it, rather than adding 0.5mm to accommodate the STP.


Ironically the STP also has a noisy rotor, and subjectively, the noise both STP movements in my watches make sounds much worse than the 9015 in the Nacken, it's kind of a scraping noise that the STP makes that isn't the most pleasant thing in the world. To hear the 9015's rotor I have to spin my wrist back and forth quickly with the watch up to my ear. Does anyone actually do this unintentionally? Also, impressively, the balance wheel in the Nacken is *dead *silent. Even if I'm pressing the crystal up against my ear, I can't hear it. The Zodiac on the other hand I can hear ticking a mile away, and the Borealis, while less audible than the Zodiac, is still clearly ticking if I have it right up by my ear.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I don't know about the STP, but Miyota movements, as I understand it, 90xx as well as 82xx all wind in one direction and freewheel in the other. In other words, if the rotor is spinning, it's not winding. Make it turn in the direction that it winds, and it may not be silent, but it doesn't "wheeee."


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I imagine people would be more likely to forgive me for rounding 9.35mm down to "9mm" in the specs (I could give you all that tried and true "I wasn't including the crystal/case-back" nonsense) than rounding 89m up to 100m.
> 
> But 275m deep is still crazy deep, and 11mm is just as round a number as 300m, no?
> 
> ...


I think it's really cool that Glycine was able to hit 10.6mm case height on the Combat Sub, that's one of the thinnest 20ATM rated divers that I'm aware of. I don't think "oh I wish it was 10.5mm, that sounds like such a better number." However, if the dial said "23ATM" that would look weird. 20ATM looks cleaner, even if the CS can actually HIT 23ATM just fine, which it very likely can. A couple of Seiko's 600M rated divers passed the 1000M mark for example, and that was in 1983. A couple of years ago they tested one of their 1000M rated pro divers, and it passed *4000M. *So clearly underrating your diver is just fine. OVERRATING it though is not something that I would recommend. It's nice that Glycine lists 10.6 on the spec sheet, but if they just rounded down to 10 I don't think anyone would be TOO upset. That isn't the same as overstating the capability of the watch.

Car manufacturers for example are really not supposed to overstate horsepower figures, but the driveline losses that are part of a dyno test allows them a bit of wiggle room. Understating on the other hand is very common, and of course no one gets upset if their Audi S4 is really producing something like 380HP instead of the rated 325 or 333.


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

Thought I'd post a very quick initial impression of the Ghost Rider I received in the mail Friday from Doc.

Love it.

Seriously it's better than I thought, which says alot. I was expecting quite a bit and this watch, and the exceptional service I received didn't disappoint.

Few cell pictures, shot a wedding with my sister today and that is the wrist shot, setting up a side cam to get a second unmanned recording of the ceremony. The two lume shots. One is lume uncharged after crashing in the living room for a bit, second is lume charged for 1 to 2 seconds with my cell. Lume is even, and colour matched throughout. Though I've only tested it one night, the lume was still visible when I got up before the sun this morning, so my lume needs are more than satiated.

Also it keeps great time, I'd rather have a Japanese than a Swiss movement any day....... My wallet agrees whole heartily.

My yeas, nays, and general discussions / thoughts I'll try and post tomorrow. But for now I must hit the sheets, weddings are exhausting....









Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Omega are ahead of yer...

They issued a number of Seamaster 120 models in the late 60s/early 70s with a WR of 120m (just under 400ft).

Ric


----------



## Streichi (Jan 5, 2017)

I`d definetely would round down than write 375m on the dial, except its hitting some really cool numbers. 666ft is imho a pretty cool number and as long its not hitting something like this i`d go down a streight number.I really cant say something about case size, there is no such thing as a ideal size, there is a mark in lugwith where it gets senseless for me but this is a decision everyone has to make on her/his own.
I never owned one of you pieces Doc but what i have seen and read on web pretty everybody is excited. Looking forward to your Devilray 

This one has 300m on the Dial


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> If the Phantom was only 67m WR, because I wouldn't let it be more than 12mm thick, and wanted the case to have a certain shape, would people still get wrapped around the axle when they see that weird number, or would they understand and accept that function gave way to form?


I think if it were only 12mm thick, I wouldn't have sold my Phantom. My spindly wrists just couldn't handle it.

I care only a little about the depth rating, even on a diver, and certainly not the roundness of the number.

In fact, the more I think about it, rounding down to the nearest hundred feels very imprecise. Exactly what I don't want in my watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## nemorior (Jan 1, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> On an unrelated topic...curious how you all would react, or how you think most WIS would react, to a watch with an odd-ball water resistance rating?
> 
> Instead of 200/300/500m WR, what if a watch had 187/243/387m WR, or some other random, not round number, something which couldn't also be expressed as a round number in feet, or any other unit of measurement?


Regarding this and the discussion about uneven case thickness (e.g. 11.6mm or whatever).

I think one of the major differences here is that you hardly (if ever?) see a watch dial that has the watch's thickness printed on it. On the other hand, it is obviously quite common (especially for dive watches) to have their WR printed on their dial.

I'm not sure how I would feel about a "weird" WR number printed on the dial - would depend on the number and the general layout and how all of it would work together. It might work or it might not.

What I am sure about though, is that I don't care about the exact WR. I.e. I would be perfectly happy with a watch (diver or not) that has a "weird" WR (267m or whatever) if that number is not printed on the dial, but only mentioned in the specs, similarly to the watch thickness.

So long story short: as long as the WR is not printed on the dial (and I don't see why it needs to be, especially if it's not a diver) I don't care if it's an even number or not. In fact, I'd rather have a thinner watch and an uncommon WR than a thicker watch just to get the WR up to the next even number.

If the WR is printed on the dial then I'm afraid all of my rambling won't be of much help, since I can't decide if I would like that or not (man, I'm glad I don't have to design watches for WIS).


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Indeed. So, based on the above post, here's the solution:

1) Don't print the WR on the dial, and
2) put the correct number - however 'odd' it may be - on the caseback or website text or packaging.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

I generally look for different things than most, so whatever I prefer, you would be wise to do the opposite. 

I use my watches pretty hard. I don't dive, but they see a lot of action.
I have had and plan to have at least one more flieger with 5ATM rating, just because I like the style and history associated with them, but it would be used mainly for office and urban. I don't care what the actual rating is, I just want it to be slim and true to it's origin.

For my other watches I wouldn't even consider anything less than 200 meters. If it's exactly 200 or 234 doesn't matter. I'm always assuming the printed rating to be a rounded down number. If the rating was more than 250 I would prefer if it was printed, but increments of 50 should be enough. And please write about the actual rating in the manual, to read that the watch is actually tested to 237m adds credibility, a rounded number like 200m, 300m or 1000m looks made up even if it's true or not.

Based on the above, from my way of looking at things I would prefer slimness over a specific WR rating, but no watch should be below 5ATM and anything that is made for hard use, e.g. divers, should not be rated below 20ATM. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Its a funny thing. I think I'm harder on my watches than anybody else. Doc can attest to seeing some of them. My wife and I love an active lifestyle from Mountain biking/hiking (anybody who knows my son is a 46er and I've been with him to most) to parasailing, jet skiing, snow mobiling, skiing both snow and agua, diving, etc...... My watches accompany me everywhere and it shows on them. I've lost a few watches in some cool places, and almost had one stolen from me while diving. I placed a watch on the sea bed in Turks and Caicos to shoot some photos from above when somebody diving below me saw it, picked it up, looked to the left and right and headed off. I had to catch up to him to get it back... there is one I lost on that diving trip, and another while white water rafting upstate NY.

I know, I don't usually type this much. Long winded to get to my point......

I beat the heck out of my watches, and I never thought much about printing the WR on the Dial. Even though it is vital to me in terms of watch "utility" (I rarely wear a watch for any length of time that has less than 200m), I don't need it there on the Dial and it's probably useless info (not as much useless info as a few of my Swiss brands), but it also serves as a space filler. Otherwise a sterile dial is in the making, and I'm not a fan of that. So, printing it on the Dial is a visual occupier, but do I really care about the specific number? My eye likes symmetry, so a palindrome might be a good option (i.e. 656 feet, 202 m, etc), but given the diversity of responses here I'd argue that this is an area where we don't need to reinvent the wheel unless there is a specific demand. Too many differing opinions and again, we may get caught in analysis paralysis...

But would I scoff at, or not purchase, a watch that is otherwise a brilliant design because it had some "odd" rating of WR on the dial?......No. I have purchased many watches overlooking some "complaint" my eye had (like snowflake hands on my Nacken and Mercedes hands on my Santa Cruz which I have strongly come around to), so an odd WR wouldn't deter me, but it also wouldn't attract me. 

Too much pre-coffee rambling....


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

You know, close up pictures of the dull aluminum foil Devil Ray has me seriously reconsidering my initial interest in the black.


----------



## carlitoswhey (Jun 26, 2017)

valuewatchguy said:


> If it was a dive watch make sure it is over 200m....227.....241.......276......whatever as long as it is over 200........that seems to be the defacto standard for desk diving on WUS
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


This sounds right in to me.

I have done a lot of market research and developed products in another (non watch) product category that had numbers in the specs and that features in the design on the product itself. In my experience, as long as our number made the minimum spec that consumers expected as cost of entry into that category, we had the freedom to pick a cool number and even to tell a story about why we chose that number.

Also in my experience, only the geeks paid attention, but those geeks were over represented online so you had to take it on proactively. When we trumpeted some super-big number as part of the specs, regular consumers would sometimes be surprised that it was "only" that number as they had no knowledge what the benchmarks mean. Forget non-divers, a significant number of mainstream watch buyers probably can't convert feet to meters. But! You are selling largely to the cognoscenti here so until that changes you have to stay within category norms.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



nemorior said:


> I think one of the major differences here is that you hardly (if ever?) see a watch dial that has the watch's thickness printed on it. On the other hand, it is obviously quite common (especially for dive watches) to have their WR printed on their dial.
> 
> What I am sure about though, is that I don't care about the exact WR. I.e. I would be perfectly happy with a watch (diver or not) that has a "weird" WR (267m or whatever) if that number is not printed on the dial, but only mentioned in the specs, similarly to the watch thickness.
> 
> ...


Totally agree. If Glycine printed "10.6mm" on the dial that would look weird. But so would 10.5mm or 10mm because nobody prints case thickness on the dial, so it doesn't _really _matter that much. I could likely not even tell the difference between a 10.5mm or 10.6mm Combat Sub. Printing the WR rating on a dive watch dial on the other hand has decades and decades of history. They didn't _always _have it though. The original Seawolf for example just said "Automatic" in fancy script, so the new homage is playing to modern tastes by printing 200M on the dial.

So you don't necessarily need to print the WR on the dial, but here's the thing. Divers are expected to be underrated, right? Is the weird spec number, 284M or whatever, the point at which the watch fails? And wouldn't that only be the case for that specific watch that was tested? Would you test several of them and then take the average fail depth? That Seiko that survived to 4000M for example, that was a regular off the shelf model and not a ringer, but that of course doesn't mean that every single one of them is going to go past 4000M and keep running. That one did, but another one might stop at 3000M. So what does Seiko print? If you pressure test a couple of examples at 275M and they all pass, it seems logical to just put 200M on there and call it a day.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I am an odd ball, Not that anyone would know that about me. I DO NOT dive, I DO NOT need to see the time in the dark. A little Lume is cool, and I do the dishes so as long as my watch can stand 2 feet of water with the kitchen light dim, I'm golden.

What I do like is symmetry and balance and flair, pizzazz. Give a watch with that "je ne sais quoi" I will take it!!!! Probably why I bought the monstrosity of a piece named Aragorn evo 45mm. Well for starters I was drunk, but the purple and lime green markers...SEXAH!!!! Not to mention the size. You can beat a few people down with the meat of that watch 17mm and 11.3 oz....Oh to go back to my early infancy WUS stage and do it all over...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I'd say look, if you are a professional diver you're going to have a top of the line pro dive computer and a good tool watch as a backup. You are going to be In depths where the tool watch ratings mean something and you're going to invest in those really deep dive rated watches that say 3000 meters. If you're a hobby scuba diver you want a good tool watch as well but you're likely going to be more conservative so a 200-300 meter watch is adequate as below that you are on mixed gas and that means a dive computer. When I dive as a hobby scuba I take the cheapest dive watch I have that Is at least rated for twice my dive depth because I'm likely going to bang it on something or it could come off and I'd hate to lose that 900 dollar Zenton or 1500 dollar Deep Blue. Most everyone else is a desk diver time bandit stealing selfies with their latest wrist candy hoping not to get a swirly so it doesn't lower their resale on a flip. Since you aren't building a professional grade tool watch, and I'm sure most of those who buys your watches would be loathe to actually risk losing it on a 50m dive, it's safe to assume that no one is really going to challenge the rating whatever it turns out to be. 50m? I'm good for swimming in the ocean or a friends pool. Got my Deep Blue Ocean Diver for the bottle dives. Nuff said. Now I'll just watch the bubbles rise in my glass of beer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

GlenRoiland said:


> Its a funny thing. I think I'm harder on my watches than anybody else. Doc can attest to seeing some of them. My wife and I love an active lifestyle from Mountain biking/hiking (anybody who knows my son is a 46er and I've been with him to most) to parasailing, jet skiing, snow mobiling, skiing both snow and agua, diving, etc...... My watches accompany me everywhere and it shows on them. I've lost a few watches in some cool places, and almost had one stolen from me while diving. I placed a watch on the sea bed in Turks and Caicos to shoot some photos from above when somebody diving below me saw it, picked it up, looked to the left and right and headed off. I had to catch up to him to get it back... there is one I lost on that diving trip, and another while white water rafting upstate NY.
> 
> I know, I don't usually type this much. Long winded to get to my point......
> 
> ...


I'm very much on board with GlenRoiland, the actual number doesn't bother me so long as it is "good looking" and indeed, multiples of 5 (better yet of 10, 20, 50 or a 100) look good because they feel simpler.
Even numbers look better than odd numbers. Palindrome numbers look great.

333m ? I love that. 4004 ft ? Great... 267m? Not so much, but then 262m is fine and with a clever typography that would be superb, methinks.

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Prime numbers are cool. Doc should engineer the next one to prime specs. E.g., 659, 661, 673, 677, 683, 691, 701


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

...and Barracuda has arrived (even if the courier left it ON TOP of my mailbox...yup.....ON TOP....it must have been a trick to balance it on the curvature. I almost took a pic to prove it, but it could have been contended I placed it there)

Quite like the gilt hands...


even for me a terrible pic, but I could only catch one pic with my dog looking...


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

Well here I go, a short review of the Ghost Rider Phantom.

I first must say I am more than impressed with the response and communication from Chris "Doc" Vail. He emailed me shortly after I ordered the watch telling me it was in assembly and would be shipped out soon. We continued to email back and forth a few times and I was very surprised how down to earth and friendly he is. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, as Doc is active here on watchuseek, but still not something I've really ever encountered, but something that really makes me proud to support and be a part of.









I received the watch during an especially busy time, but I took a few minuets to open the package and look the watch over. It came packed very well in a nice padded watch box, one that I'll actually keep, as its quite nice. The watch came with the date set to the day Chris sent the watch to me, a very nice and thoughtful touch. Just this small aspect shows the excellent care and service you can expect from Doc. The strap is a very nice leather, very well made with a branded clasp that matches the finish of the case. Also included was a nice Nato strap that match the watch very well. I however have a couple of favorite Nato straps I wanted to try it on and this is were I noticed a thoughtful and nice design aspect of the watch case. The bottom edges that rub against a Nato strap are slightly chamfered and slightly brushed, to create a surface that wont dig into your straps as you pass them through, a very nice aspect if you are using a leather Nato, no nasty lines scratched into the leather here! It is not so heavily chamfered and rounded as to cause the Watch to slide around on a Nato when its fastened on the wrist though. This is one BIG design aspect I greatly appreciate, as I change around my Nato's regularly. This kind of design is something that adds value to me the customer, but adds production cost to the case for Chris. Just in the first few moments I knew Janis Trading is a brand I can stand behind.









I went to bed at 11:16, my watch told me, with the aid of its excellent lume. When I was up before the sun, the lume was still bright enough to make the watch legible. Here is a picture of the lume uncharged, then charged for 2 seconds with a 120 lumen led light. I really enjoy the tan vintage lume look as well, I know some hate it but not me! Looks amazing, I love lume.....alot and this watches lume is perfect!
















The caseback Is very cool, I MUCH prefer a cool stamped or engraved caseback to a see-through one. The brushed and blasted surface contrast looks incredible and I'm sure will make me want to change straps more often than I already do to get another look.









The signed crown was another feature I loved, The dog is killer, and again the brushed and blasted surfaces make the dog stand out and look incredible. I do think the crown is a bit thin though, I'm a fan of bigger crowns and this crown is a little on the small side for my taste.









One aspect I'm not a huge fan of is the watches thickens. I've been wearing an early 70's manual wind skin diver that is crazy thin, and after swapping it out for this the one thing that bugged me a bit was the watches thickness. I love the huge Acrylic dome of the watch but the case to me seems a bit thick, I understand it probably is as thin as it can be and still hold the 200m water resistance. I know how much the whole WR aspect of watches seems to matter so much to the market as a whole........for no legitimate reason, but I still wish the case was a bit thinner.....









Now mentioning the acrylic crystal, its good.......its Vostok good! I have an affinity with acrylic crystals, the way the capture the light, they way they wonderfully distort the dial and hands, and the fact if you scratch them you can easily polish them back to perfection! I wear my watches, I in no way baby them so the fact I can scratch the crystal and not worry makes me very happy. Seriously though, this may be one of my favorite watch crystals I've encountered, its really good. In fact in just the few days I've had the watch on my wrist I've already scratched the crystal up a bit......you'll see its not perfect in the pictures and that is entirely because I have not babied this watch at all.





















The dial is very well done, I told Doc one thing that really sealed the deal for me was the skull aviator insignia on the dial. It looks awesome in person. The sandwich dial is clean symmetrical and not over stated. I love the fact that Phantom is the only clearly visible marking on the dial besides the markers and numerals. I purchased one with a date window, because I find myself using my watches with date windows more often, there just more useful to me. I do wish the datewheel was marked with red numerals to match the Phantom, but I know the amount of hassle and work that adds, but none the less I wish it had one.









Chris has made me a huge fan of Janis Trading, I plan on continuing to support his great work. The customer service, attention to details in the designs, and his genuine love and care for his products shows. The Phantom, while great is not perfect, but it is one watch that will never leave my collection.


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

Sorry it's late there are typos and it's not written the best, but I can't find an option to edit the post..... Should have waited till tomorrow I guess... 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Trower44 said:


> Sorry it's late there are typos and it's not written the best, but I can't find an option to edit the post..... Should have waited till tomorrow I guess...
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


Still a very good write-up and a joy to read, you have picked up on many of the elements that make ownership of a watch like the Phantom special. Many thanks for sharing.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Re: WR 

It seems that you pick whatever looks best for the watch itself & the spec sheet in big type, with an asterisk to give fine print to be more exact, based on whichever below suits you:

ATM in steps of 10 or 5
Or
M in steps of 50
Or
FT any way that feels cool or interesting.

That way you use whichever feels right at the time... 10ATM or 200m or 666FT are all fine.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Trower44 said:


> ...I was very surprised how down to earth and friendly he is.


Nope. Just. Nope.



Trower44 said:


> The watch came with the date set to the day Chris sent the watch to me, a very nice and thoughtful touch.


Completely unintentional.



Trower44 said:


> Just this small aspect shows the excellent care and service you can expect if you're a statistical anomaly.


Fixed that for you.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Catching up after vacation:
Huzzah for more DR prototype photos. Still going turquoise.
Bums about the end link issue.
The Vail wall o' texts are as entertaining as always.
Somehow I never knew (or just forgot) the Philly gtg was an annual thing. Time to sign up for the group.
Huzzah for proto fixes/tweaks in the works.
WR ratings are probably best left rounded unless you manage a number that looks "cool".


docvail said:


> I don't think my new diet and exercise plan is going to get me down to a 6" wrist before we start pre-orders.


Not everyone is cool enough to be a small wristed Philadelphian(ish) individual. We are a select group. If I work my wrist real hard to make your watch look good can I get a discount ;-)


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

docvail said:


> Nope. Just. Nope.
> 
> Completely unintentional.
> 
> Fixed that for you.


I still haven't forgiven you for the dead rat you included with my order. And you charged me for it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> I still haven't forgiven you for the dead rat you included with my order. And you charged me for it.


Had to pay a guy to kill the rat, didn't I? It's not as if they just die on my doorstep...


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> I still haven't forgiven you for the dead rat you included with my order. And you charged me for it.





docvail said:


> Had to pay a guy to kill the rat, didn't I? It's not as if they just die on my doorstep...


This is how the 2017 outbreak of plague begins.


----------



## footie (Nov 12, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> 1. Some of my customers (or potential customers) have bigger wrists. I frequently get requests for a 44mm version of the subs, or just "anything bigger than 42mm".
> 
> Sometimes I make smaller models. Sometimes I make larger models.
> 
> ...


Doc - I'm thinking this will wear a smidge smaller than my L & H Spectre. Agreed?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



footie said:


> Doc - I'm thinking this will wear a smidge smaller than my L & H Spectre. Agreed?












All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

doc is super friendly...in the 48 hours after you giving him money. A lot like my ex wife.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> My lawyer tells me that it's illegal for a reviewer to not disclose any compensation they received to do a review.


Whew... since that's what I said, then your lawyer and I agree!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> View attachment 12517065


I'm only up to 3 emails, so it's all downhill from here...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> View attachment 12517065


I actually REALLY like that, and I think I'm going to find this very useful..


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

That Spectre is Uuuuuge. Trust me, I know uuuuuge. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## footie (Nov 12, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Thanks! Quite a bit smaller then.


----------



## footie (Nov 12, 2013)

hawkeye86 said:


> That Spectre is Uuuuuge. Trust me, I know uuuuuge.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Meh, I don't think of it as uuuge. Maybe my perspective on uuuuge is different.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Nice, I find my Spectre wears just fine on my wrist. I do consider my wrists on the baby side of 6.75 but I am happy to see the DR wear a bit smaller.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> I actually REALLY like that, and I think I'm going to find this very useful..


It's a Northeast metropolitan thing. We can be total a-holes with our closest friends.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> It's a Northeast metropolitan thing. We can be total a-holes with our closest friends.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


As a born and raised New Yorker I can confirm this. All of my friends in New York were a-holes. Or was it just me? Meh, don't care.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

I know Doc hates suggestions, but I think I found a solution.


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

Trying out a new Haveston strap. It rides a little high though. Think I'll have to take scissors and a lighter to it for some RAFing.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> View attachment 12517065


:think: Sooo what you're saying is that *everyone* should send at least one and preferably two-to-three emails to you (back-and-forth emails, too, not just one-way)?


----------



## Gdavis111 (Sep 1, 2017)

Just bought a NTH Nacken. I too am very tough on my watches, the close-up photos of my Rolex Submariner when last in for service were a testament to that fact. Never took it off, looked like it had been through a coffee grinder. 
Going to endeavor to take better care of it. The new NHT is going to be by daily driver. Curious about anyone's experience with daily shower and NHT. (I've read the various shower, anti-shower posts in general postings).
Thanks



GlenRoiland said:


> Its a funny thing. I think I'm harder on my watches than anybody else. Doc can attest to seeing some of them. My wife and I love an active lifestyle from Mountain biking/hiking (anybody who knows my son is a 46er and I've been with him to most) to parasailing, jet skiing, snow mobiling, skiing both snow and agua, diving, etc...... My watches accompany me everywhere and it shows on them. I've lost a few watches in some cool places, and almost had one stolen from me while diving. I placed a watch on the sea bed in Turks and Caicos to shoot some photos from above when somebody diving below me saw it, picked it up, looked to the left and right and headed off. I had to catch up to him to get it back... there is one I lost on that diving trip, and another while white water rafting upstate NY.
> 
> I know, I don't usually type this much. Long winded to get to my point......
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

When I meet the guy who started NHT watches, I'm whipping his sas.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## footie (Nov 12, 2013)

Knowing that I'm about to bring the mockery upon myself....the Devil Ray will be my smallest watch, and I'm concerned about that, but I'm buying one anyway because the design is so freaking hot. Hopes, prayers, and whatnot that it doesn't end up being too small for me!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

footie said:


> Knowing that I'm about to bring the mockery upon myself....the Devil Ray will be my smallest watch, and I'm concerned about that, but I'm buying one anyway because the design is so freaking hot. Hopes, prayers, and whatnot that it doesn't end up being too small for me!


Everyone please mock Matt in unison.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

The comedians in this thread are in rare form this afternoon. Kudos.


----------



## footie (Nov 12, 2013)

docvail said:


> Everyone please mock Matt in unison.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Doc, you know Marci will just steal it from me anyway, so not sure why I'm concerned (hands over credit card).


----------



## footie (Nov 12, 2013)

footie said:


> Doc, you know Marci will just steal it from me anyway, so not sure why I'm concerned (hands over credit card).


See what I mean?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

footie said:


> See what I mean?
> 
> View attachment 12519009


People: "44mm is too big."

Me: "Shut. Up."


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

footie said:


> Knowing that I'm about to bring the mockery upon myself....the Devil Ray will be my smallest watch, and I'm concerned about that, but I'm buying one anyway because the design is so freaking hot. Hopes, prayers, and whatnot that it doesn't end up being too small for me!


Oh! The "smallest" watch! May the Gods take pity that this unfortunate soul must suffer the indignation of carrying around a minuscule instrument of horological insignificance!! Perhaps a midget could walk 10 paces behind you carrying it for you all the while exclaiming in a loud voice for all to hear as to how large and magnificent the watch looks in his hands so people won't notice how dainty it must look compared to the grandfather clocks you are used to dragging around. Mockery has ensued...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

footie said:


> Knowing that I'm about to bring the mockery upon myself....the Devil Ray will be my smallest watch, and I'm concerned about that, but I'm buying one anyway because the design is so freaking hot. Hopes, prayers, and whatnot that it doesn't end up being too small for me!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Gdavis111 said:


> Just bought a NTH Nacken. I too am very tough on my watches, the close-up photos of my Rolex Submariner when last in for service were a testament to that fact. Never took it off, looked like it had been through a coffee grinder.
> Going to endeavor to take better care of it. The new NHT is going to be by daily driver. Curious about anyone's experience with daily shower and NHT. (I've read the various shower, anti-shower posts in general postings).
> Thanks


Mine has quickly become my go-to "sport" watch, because it wears so much smaller than my Cascais, and I tend to leave my Zodiac and SKX on leather, particularly the SKX which has a non-QR ColaReb on it. I don't shower with it, but I do wash it with soap and water to get the sweat and/or sunscreen off pretty regularly. No issues to report.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> When I meet the guy who started NHT watches, I'm whipping his sas.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


NHT thinks about getting into watches, reads this thread, quickly reverses course.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Wait. One of doc's customers has been within 3 feet of a girl? Anyone skilled enough to see if that pic was 'shopped?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Wait. One of doc's customers has been within 3 feet of a girl? Anyone skilled enough to see if that pic was 'shopped?


Bro, c'mon.

Not only is she a girl, you've met her. That's Marci, Matt's wife, both of whom visited my table at the DC Micro-brands meetup last year, where you were hanging around, pretending you were helping me.

Go home, Andrew, yer drunk.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Bro, c'mon.
> 
> Not only is she a girl, you've met her. That's Marci, Matt's wife, both of whom visited my table at the DC Micro-brands meetup last year, where you were hanging around, pretending you were helping me.
> 
> Go home, Andrew, yer drunk.


Not now I'm not, but i was then.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

AAAaaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhhh!!!

Sorry, I just need to vent.

I've been trying to source some nice rubber straps, to offer to people as an add-on for the DevilRay, and it's starting to get super-frustrating.

My first stop was to the premier provider of good quality rubber straps - you'd know the name. I was shocked to learn they've doubled their minimum order amount since the last time I bought from them. I'd have to buy 300 straps, total, with at least 30 in each color, instead of 150 straps total, which is what I was expecting.

The 30 in each color part is no big deal, but the 300 total which is way, WAY, WWWWAAAAAYYYYY more straps than I'm likely to sell if I just make them an optional add-on. 150 is more than I'd need, honestly, even if we decide to make 500, or even 600 watches. At most, maybe 1 in 5 people adds a strap. I figure it's worth a punt on 150, even if I end up giving 20 of them away at GTG's.

I think I could possibly make it work, probably buy 30 blue and 30 orange, and make the rest black, but then again, if I have to buy 300, I'd have to seriously consider including them with each watch, and raising the price.

Either way, it would be nice to get the samples that I requested a month ago - still no sign of them. It would be amazing if they had some stock photography of them, that I could just put up on my site, so I don't have to pay a guy to take pics of a strap. I think the samples they supposedly sent me aren't even the style I wanted, just some straps they had lying around, in those colors.

So...perhaps a different supplier is in order...

My next two stops were to the supplier that made the tropic straps for the Antilles and Azores, a shop which I know can deliver good quality, and a strap supplier my factory recommends. 

But because the strap supplier my factory recommended couldn't be bothered to respond to my request for info, my guy at the factory has been playing go-between.

I explained I was trying to match the dial colors of the DevilRay, specifically the turquoise and orange, and so I'd need to see some sort of catalog of both colors and styles - sharpish.

He sends me back four images with varying ranges of "in-focus", showing 10 different straps laid out on a table, glare from an overhead light bouncing off the table, making it hard to see the textures. 

No details regarding whether the straps are straight or tapering, or what the back of the straps look like, nor prices, were provided.

Even better - not a single one of the 10 straps was orange, or anything remotely resembling turquoise blue. There were 3 blacks, 2 blues, 2 yellows, and 3 pinks. 

I mean...seriously? What am I supposed to do with that? "I'll take the darker of the two yellow straps, but in orange, turquoise, and black"? 

C'mon. What game are we playing here? I don't understand the rules. This is less fun than playing "guess which currency I'm giving you" with Sujain (hint: the answer is ALWAYS "aussie dollars").

Confounding me further, both the guys who made the Tropics straps and these new guys who can't provide a catalog want me to buy 300 straps PER COLOR.

Exsqueeze me? Baking powder?

If I can't figure this out within the week, your options for the DevilRay will be the stainless steel bracelet, or whatever you can find from someone else who isn't me. I so don't have time for this nonsense.


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

FWIW be unique and disrupt the industry, send em all with just pink rubber, i mean who will have the guts to top that?


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Tough to hear that Doc, Sorry brother.... I hate the fact we only have an option of liking a thread. I think we need a hug choice too. 

Would it help if you yourself had someone that could speak the language directly to the supplier so you at least you know wtf is being talked about without having to have a neutral in-between?

Just an idea..


----------



## CantFightJose (Dec 29, 2016)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 12520911
> 
> 
> View attachment 12520913


So hot right now.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Tough to hear that Doc, Sorry brother.... I hate the fact we only have an option of liking a thread. I think we need a hug choice too.
> 
> Would it help if you yourself had someone that could speak the language directly to the supplier so you at least you know wtf is being talked about without having to have a neutral in-between?
> 
> Just an idea..


It's not the language barrier getting in the way, I don't think.

The MOQ thing is just the MOQ thing.

If I make 300 watches, they have to be mounted to something, either a strap or a bracelet. The strap and bracelet suppliers know I have to make 300 cases, so I guess they just make their MOQ 300 straps or bracelets.

The idea that I might want to make the strap or bracelet available as an option doesn't seem to occur to them.

Why can't they come off their 300 piece MOQ? I don't know.

With cases, I get it. The cases are molded to our specs. With custom-made anything, I guess I get it, because it's made to our specs. It seems like the tooling for a strap ought to be less costly, and allow for a lower MOQ than the tooling for a case, but maybe I'm wrong.

But when we're talking about a standard, catalog item from a supplier's own catalog, it makes no sense. I'm not an expert in making rubber straps, but it seems like if they've got the item in their catalog, just changing colors shouldn't require all new tooling.

The rest is just par for the course in this business, from what I've seen. A lot of suppliers haven't yet adapted to the reality - big brands are struggling, small brands are growing, but we need better/faster responses than what they're providing. They all have nice trade-show booths. Precious few have decent catalogs, and amazingly few have good websites. They're all still throwing out stupid-high MOQ's for everything, and it's costing them business.

The not having a goddam website or even a catalog that a customer like me can use to see styles and colors makes no sense. I get that they don't want to deal with individual schlubs asking to buy one strap, but make the catalog part of the website password-protected, or send a catalog in the mail once you verify the person asking is legit. STP confirmed my request for info - and sent it - within 12 hours of me asking.

The premier supplier has a website, showing the full range of styles and colors. The guys that made the tropics strap have a site that's totally useless, but at least I have their catalog, and they provided me with the image for the tropics strap, which seemed easy enough, I mean, it's black. Not like I'm asking them to send me a pic of a hot pink tropic strap, right?

Not having any website, or a catalog, and not responding to me at all, and providing almost no details or any remotely helpful info, and expecting me to buy 300 per color?

C'mon. Care enough to fake it.

As of this moment, the premier supplier is looking like the front runner. I can figure out how to make things work with 300 straps. I'll get 30-50 of turquoise and orange, maybe 30 of some other color, something neutral like dark blue, and I'll make the rest black. I'll sell them eventually. No big deal.

But I can't wait another month for a sample and a reasonable way to communicate to my customers what the hell they'd be buying. Like I said, if I can't figure this out, and SOON, I'll probably chuck it all, and get out of the strap business entirely. This is train wreck of Tijuana donkey-show proportions.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

You should ask Joshua to help, doc. He could add value here. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> You should ask Joshua to help, doc. He could add value here.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sure I'm going to regret this, but...who's "Joshua"?

Are we talking about that kid who sent me 57 private messages on Facebook? I'd sooner work with any vendor randomly chosen from the Hong Kong phone book than invite that guy back into my life.


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

Wish you to solve this thing somehow, Chris. 
I also think your fans will understand it if it happens like this. 
Life shows that unexpected thoughts and decisions appear leading to greater destinations when it seems there was no solution, but the whole world may also turn the way we need


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Just throw in a box of multi colored condoms for those that want their rubber to match the watch.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'm sure I'm going to regret this, but...who's "Joshua"?
> 
> Are we talking about that kid who sent me 57 private messages on Facebook? I'd sooner work with any vendor randomly chosen from the Hong Kong phone book than invite that guy back into my life.


Who else but? He might be just the one to prove s.z. correct.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Who else but? He might be just the one to prove s.z. correct.


When a guy sends me 50+ private messages in quick succession, then caps things off by insulting my logo, then immediately takes to Twitter to moan about the advice I gave him (which was legit)...yeah, call me a grouch, but that's not a guy who gets a second bite at this apple.

Even if I was willing to give him a shot, I know others who have, and regretted it. The quality of his product couldn't match his lofty claims.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

To all my UK friends and customers - your customs agents are the biggest of bastards.

I just got an email from a repair shop in the UK, to whom I sent a replacement part.

I declared the package value as USD $50, about GBP £37 at today's exchange rate. There should not have been ANY tax applied, assuming I didn't completely muff the label, and forget to indicate in some way that the part was for a repair, no sale was involved, and so no tax should be due.

Even if I did completely muff it, 20% VAT on $50 is $10, or GPB £7.41.

They're telling me her majesty's customs officials are demanding GBP £23.27, or USD $31.42.

I'm no mathematician, but I'm pretty sure that's a more than 60% tax rate.

This is why we don't send you Christmas cards.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


>


Mood watches.... BAM :-!

Like a mood ring. Only watches. ;-)

I think this was a good enough and big enough idea to break the no suggestion rule. I'll take my free DR now as payment for my idea |>


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> To all my UK friends and customers - your customs agents are the biggest of bastards.
> 
> I just got an email from a repair shop in the UK, to whom I sent a replacement part.
> 
> ...


I believe that the cut-off for taxation is above a value of £20-00. I recently received a VAT bill for £12-00 for 2 straps that I bought from the 'States at a cost of £24-00, breakdown was VAT £4-00 and the processing charge - £8 'effin' pounds!!! It really does make me think twice about any purchase from the USA.

Now I must 'fess-up and say that I have "won" several purchases over the past year and all of the "gifts" from "friends & family" in the 'States have been tax free, but I most certainly do get the deepest urge to drop-kick the nearest tax-man into the next county when I get mugged by the chuffin' [email protected]!!

With the number of acquisitions going on, it does add up and will constitute at least the cost of a reasonably priced watch over a year; I really think that a Trans-Atlantic arrangement with trusted PayPal friends & family is the way to go here despite the threat of draconian measures by the revenue [email protected] such as slow dismemberment - you might as well take an arm anyway..... They know that if you really want to hurt a man - kick him in the wallet.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


>


I just love that every reply that quotes this email will feature a rainbow color changing pile of poop.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> To all my UK friends and customers - your customs agents are the biggest of bastards.
> 
> I just got an email from a repair shop in the UK, to whom I sent a replacement part.
> 
> ...


About par for the course. I once had around £25 of straps delivered here from the USA. Customs charge element was about £5, but the delivery company then added a 'processing & administration' charge (I assume for the privilege of taking my £5 and handing it to HMRC) of just over £9, meaning I ended up paying near 50% overhead. I've had similar stories of a standard admin fee levied on top with other deliveries and other companies, so I'd assume this is not uncommon practice. If you check the detail of your bill, I'd lay reasonable odds there's an 'admin charge' element there that's at times totally out of whack with the overall cost as it doesn't scale down

One of the joys that makes being a WIS that tad more expensive over here :-(


----------



## thekody (May 21, 2010)

I've had Canadian customers get hit with high customs charges on relatively small orders as well.. It's an epidemic!


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

'tis a pain in the arse. Of course I blame the EU / Trump for not getting their arse in gear with a decent free-trade agreement. I digress.

Some American retailers, larger ones obviously, take tax into account when you pay up front. I've bought stuff off Amazon and LL Bean in the US and got all that jazz out of the way at point-of-sale. LL Bean's web-shop is specifically set up to make it easier for UK customers.


----------



## thekody (May 21, 2010)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> 'tis a pain in the arse. Of course I blame the EU / Trump for not getting their arse in gear with a decent free-trade agreement. I digress.
> 
> Some American retailers, larger ones obviously, take tax into account when you pay up front. I've bought stuff off Amazon and LL Bean in the US and got all that jazz out of the way at point-of-sale. LL Bean's web-shop is specifically set up to make it easier for UK customers.


That's pretty cool. So you pay customs on their site or how does it work?


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I did not think of the duty when I ordered a few watches, l luckily I never got dinged for straps because I have ordered a few. Of course I was new in the WUS scene so I figured it was a good deals. Duty sucks!!!! Not to mention the Canadian dollar but what ya gonna do? You want it? MacDaddy gots to pay for et!!


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

theague said:


> That's pretty cool. So you pay customs on their site or how does it work?


Yes, they factor in costs at point-of-sale. When the stuff arrives you don't need to do anything else, and they ship free for orders over UK 75.00 (and TBH there's little point in spending less).


----------



## Gdavis111 (Sep 1, 2017)

Received my NTH Nacken today. Kudos to OSUMBA200, great transaction! Thank you. 
As a daily Rolex Sub wearer, I am and have for 15 years been spoiled. The Nacken as it turns out was a very pleasant surprise. It also is a quality, very nice piece. I am indeed impressed with it. 
So much so, now I'm looking for another.



Gdavis111 said:


> Just bought a NTH Nacken. I too am very tough on my watches, the close-up photos of my Rolex Submariner when last in for service were a testament to that fact. Never took it off, looked like it had been through a coffee grinder.
> Going to endeavor to take better care of it. The new NHT is going to be by daily driver. Curious about anyone's experience with daily shower and NHT. (I've read the various shower, anti-shower posts in general postings).
> Thanks


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> I believe that the cut-off for taxation is above a value of £20-00. I recently received a VAT bill for £12-00 for 2 straps that I bought from the 'States at a cost of £24-00, breakdown was VAT £4-00 and the processing charge - £8 'effin' pounds!!! It really does make me think twice about any purchase from the USA.
> 
> Now I must 'fess-up and say that I have "won" several purchases over the past year and all of the "gifts" from "friends & family" in the 'States have been tax free, but I most certainly do get the deepest urge to drop-kick the nearest tax-man into the next county when I get mugged by the chuffin' [email protected]!!
> 
> ...


I'm well aware the brokerage fees some couriers charge are criminal. Start a petition to end them, and I'll sign it.

The thing that always vexes me is how often people in the UK or EU think of buying something from the US as having an 'added cost' in the form of VAT/etc.

It really doesn't. If I'm charging you $500 for something in the US, you might get a bill for $100 VAT (plus that obnoxious fee), but I'd be adding 20% VAT and charging you $600 for it in the UK or EU. The only difference isn't one of cost - as it's effectively the same either way - the difference is who has to deal with your a-hole tax collectors.

It sucks that it's you, but that would seem to be offset by the odds (which seem good) that you'll escape without paying anything.

I lied. I am a mathematician, but only for the sake of being a half-way decent poker player. If you've got a 50% chance of escaping the $100 VAT, then your imputed cost of a $500 purchase from the USA is $550, compared to a purchase made in the UK, where you're 100% guaranteed to pay that 20% VAT.

Here in the USA, it's common for people to drive over a state line to make a large purchase in a neighboring state without a state sales tax. Here in PA, it's 6%. Twenty minutes away, in Delaware, it's 0%. So long as the savings is more than the gas used getting there, it's a no-brainer. Guess where everyone I know buys their appliances, electronics, home furnishings, and booze?

(Hint: it's Delaware.)

Any chance you have at all - ANY CHANCE - of escaping without paying makes the purchase from the USA a better proposition than the buying the same item in the UK. It amazes me how often people prefer the "convenience" of getting raped for 20% up front on every purchase over the inconvenience of having to pay a tax bill on some, but not all purchases.

The VAT is supposed to foster prosperity, but it's actually a drag on it, because it gives people an incentive to buy from somewhere else, just like my wife and I bought our refrigerator just over the state line.

Economics - I does 'em.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> I just love that every reply that quotes this email will feature a rainbow color changing pile of poop.


*Sparkly.

You forgot to add "sparkly" to the description of the poo.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> 'tis a pain in the arse. Of course I blame the EU / Trump for not getting their arse in gear with a decent free-trade agreement. I digress.
> 
> Some American retailers, larger ones obviously, take tax into account when you pay up front. I've bought stuff off Amazon and LL Bean in the US and got all that jazz out of the way at point-of-sale. LL Bean's web-shop is specifically set up to make it easier for UK customers.


I can only imagine the additional logistics, programming, and documentation accomplishing that must require.

If the Queen wants money from me, she can get in line behind my wife and kids. Hope she's not offended by teenagers going trouser-less, because my 15-year old likes to go trouser-less.


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

To be honest Doc, I now factor in tax at 20% on any outside eu purchases regardless. That way I can compare like for like on prices I could get in the UK (assuming the item is available here). Then if I get hit, it's not a surprise, and if I don't, i've saved some money - which in my happiness I then immediately usually go spend on something else like straps anyway - doh!

It's a pain, but there you go, and if anything it just helps refine my 'do I really want that?' judgement calls when looking at watches and other stuff

Btw, talking of different tax rates in different states, you know what I as a brit fInd confusing? Price tags in the shops when I visit the USA. Finding the price of an item at the till to be more expensive when you go to pay because sales tax only gets added at that point led to a couple embarrassing misunderstandings on my first visit...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HSSB said:


> To be honest Doc, I now factor in tax at 20% on any outside eu purchases regardless. That way I can compare like for like on prices I could get in the UK (assuming the item is available here). Then if I get hit, it's not a surprise, and if I don't, i've saved some money - which in my happiness I then immediately usually go spend on something else like straps anyway - doh!
> 
> It's a pain, but there you go, and if anything it just helps refine my 'do I really want that?' judgement calls when looking at watches and other stuff
> 
> Btw, talking of different tax rates in different states, you know what I as a brit fInd confusing? Price tags in the shops when I visit the USA. Finding the price of an item at the till to be more expensive when you go to pay because sales tax only gets added at that point led to a couple embarrassing misunderstandings on my first visit...


Yep. Your taxes are better hidden than ours.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Happiness is having someone you barely know compliment your watch, and seeing their expression change when you tell them to smell your strap.










All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Here in the USA, it's common for people to drive over a state line to make a large purchase in a neighboring state without a state sales tax. Here in PA, it's 6%. Twenty minutes away, in Delaware, it's 0%. So long as the savings is more than the gas used getting there, it's a no-brainer. Guess where everyone I know buys their appliances, electronics, home furnishings, and booze?
> 
> (Hint: it's Delaware.)


Growing up in York, everyone I knew went to Maryland for their booze, not because of the tax, but because of the friggen PA state liquor laws/stores. Wine? At the supermarket? We can't possibly have such a thing. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!! So happy to be living here in beautiful Oregon (except when it's on fire) where the sales tax happens to be 0.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> I can only imagine the additional logistics, programming, and documentation accomplishing that must require.
> 
> If the Queen wants money from me, she can get in line behind my wife and kids. Hope she's not offended by teenagers going trouser-less, because my 15-year old likes to go trouser-less.


Is your son a fan of "the Smiths" by any chance? The Smiths were an '80's band from Manchester and they pre-empted your vision with one of their tracks - Nowhere Fast - it has a line, "I'd like to drop my trousers to the Queen, every sensible child will know what this means", I remember it caused a bit of a harrumph in, ahem, polite circles back then; however, I'm sure that Her Maj. would be ever so slightly amused at such a sight, if not, perhaps a Devil Ray strap sniff would make her feel better......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> When a guy sends me 50+ private messages in quick succession, then caps things off by insulting my logo, then immediately takes to Twitter to moan about the advice I gave him (which was legit)...yeah, call me a grouch, but that's not a guy who gets a second bite at this apple.
> 
> Even if I was willing to give him a shot, I know others who have, and regretted it. The quality of his product couldn't match his lofty claims.


Im so sad you took me seriously. :headsmack:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Is your son a fan of "the Smiths" by any chance? The Smiths were an '80's band from Manchester and they pre-empted your vision with one of their tracks - Nowhere Fast - it has a line, "I'd like to drop my trousers to the Queen, every sensible child will know what this means", I remember it caused a bit of a harrumph in, ahem, polite circles back then; however, I'm sure that Her Maj. would be ever so slightly amused at such a sight, if not, perhaps a Devil Ray strap sniff would make her feel better......
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


I know the Smiths. For a hot minute, I wore my hair like Morrissey. Laugh if you want, but I wasn't the only one. We had a couple of Morrissey's in my crew, plus a guy who wore his hair like Robert Smith from the Cure. For a while I was Michael Hutchence of INXS, around that "New Sensation" album's release.

That was the stage between "Mullet" and "Maybe if I just got a normal haircut I'd be able to get a better job..."

As for my son, no, I don't think he knows the Smiths, not to say he's got the typically bad musical tastes of today's teens. He's somehow found his way to classic rock, knows almost as much of the music as I do, and gave me a proud father moment when he asked me if we could see Social Distortion live for his birthday this year.

Yes, we went. Yes, it was awesome. Best show I've ever seen. His first concert.

He just doesn't like wearing pants, and ditches his 3 seconds after he enters the house.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Im so sad you took me seriously. :headsmack:
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Never, have I ever, taken you seriously.

Ever.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

The Smiths....WOW awesome, never would have guessed it.

As for concerts that Social Distortion tour, I wanted to go but at that time The Fam was all turned upside down and we are still working on flipping it back right.

Last year I brought a couple of my Kids to their 1st concert which was Prophets of Rage, members consisting of Chuck D from Public Enemy, B Real from Cypress Hill, and the Rage against the Machine band. What made the concert EPIC!!! Was Dave Grohl showed up and played Kick up the Jams!!! It is great when you can share music with your Children. We have to get what ever kind of interaction we can get from them because before you know it, they are grown up.

Anyways enough of my rambling now show moar pix plix!!!!


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Dammit Doc stop flashing that orange Devil Ray around. You already have enough of my money. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> Dammit Doc stop flashing that orange Devil Ray around. You already have enough of my money.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Define "enough".


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

docvail said:


> Define "enough".


Old English.genōg, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch.genoeg.and German.genug

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

Also I agree....... I can't justify funds for that lusty devil right now.... 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

docvail said:


> Define "enough".


I have 6 of your watches...so far. I expect the DR to be #7

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> I have 6 of your watches...so far. I expect the DR to be #7
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Pfft!

JohnnyBaldJunior has at least twice that many.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Now this thread morphed into The Smith's and The Cure......Nice

One of Robert Smith's earliest recordings,


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Ratfacedgit said:


> Now this thread morphed into The Smith's and The Cure......Nice
> 
> One of Robert Smith's earliest recordings,


Vaguely remember Robert Smith as a member of Siouxsie & The Banshees, I say vaguely because I was too busy looking at her.........

Great music from all of these musicians, that I still play occasionally.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

docvail said:


> Pfft!
> 
> JohnnyBaldJunior has at least twice that many.


I guess I'm not your biggest fan. Time to take that banner off the bedroom wall.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Nor can I really but I am scraping it together so this brief pause due to Doc's sourcing problems are helping me out a bit, Sorry Doc again.

Damn surprise Dentist visits...If my Wife didn't look better with Teeth I would say NO..I am also aware of the positives with less enamel in said mouth.

I am worried about this once mentioned Renegade Sub? I know something was mentioned on a variation of 1 of his existing pieces. I regretted not being around for his pre-orders but when he mentioned this 1 I got excited. If this watch is a surprise watch-roll on us (I thought of Rick-roll but Watch-roll sounds better inside my cranium), I am not sure what to do. LOL



Trower44 said:


> Also I agree....... I can't justify funds for that lusty devil right now....
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Too cool for school







b-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> I guess I'm not your biggest fan.


Are we judging based on height and weight, or...


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

docvail said:


> Are we judging based on height and weight, or...


If those factor into it, I may still be in the running.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Not to change things up too much, but I am adding a third Janis Trading watch to my watchbox. Actually, it is a replacement for one I foolishly traded away a while ago. Khaki Fannum incoming. Expected TOA Monday! Pix after it arrives. Thanks, Steve. Your loss is my gain.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Not to change things up too much, but I am adding a third Janis Trading watch to my watchbox. Actually, it is a replacement for one I foolishly traded away a while ago. Khaki Fannum incoming. Expected TOA Monday! Pix after it arrives. Thanks, Steve. Your loss is my gain.


Fannums!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_59c4e9a1e4b06ddf45f71acf?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

Doc be like: "hey, they do that to me, too. Can i get me a free meal?"

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_59c4e9a1e4b06ddf45f71acf?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009
> 
> Doc be like: "hey, they do that to me, too. Can i get me a free meal?"
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's effing fantastic.

I hope this becomes a real movement, with small businesses the world over publicly outing these shameless panhandlers.

Join me, entrepreneurs of the world, as we boldly step into a brighter future...

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

my favorite part is the fact that these people or not established as havign any influence. Put in work. make a good blog and review stuff in a proper way and then people will start sending you stuff without you even asking. or not. either way, you cant trade on future promises. The thing that kills me is with credit cards these guys could be dicks and buy things, review them, then return them...as long as they carefully read the return agreements. Not condone it , just saying they could. But not with food. I dont think it works that way.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

idvsego said:


> my favorite part is the fact that these people or not established as havign any influence. Put in work. make a good blog and review stuff in a proper way and then people will start sending you stuff without you even asking. or not. either way, you cant trade on future promises. The thing that kills me is with credit cards these guys could be dicks and buy things, review them, then return them...as long as they carefully read the return agreements. Not condone it , just saying they could. But not with food. I dont think it works that way.


We don't want to find out if it works with food.

I'm not yet too concerned with people buying stuff for review with the intention of returning it, for a few reasons.

First, most return for refund policies require the item to be unworn, still in as-delivered condition. Hard to do a good review without unwrapping and wearing it.

Second, all our refunds are net of our shipping and handling costs, and return shipping for that scenario would be at the customer's expense, and risk of loss in transit, so it's not exactly a no cost strategy. These guys don't want to spend or risk a dime.

Three, anyone shifty enough to try that likely wouldn't want to gamble that the credit card company finds in my favor. I've never even had a dispute on a legitimate purchase, much less lost a dispute on one. I imagine a guy like that has a record of making a higher than normal number of dubious claims. Credit card companies watch for fraud on both sides of a transaction, but primarily focus on the buyer side, not the merchant side.

Third, worst case scenario, I get the watch back, issue a refund, and sell it again. I can live with that.

Fourth, they may like it so much they keep it.

Fifth, I've offered well-worn review samples to guys, conditional on them paying a refundable 80% deposit, which they'd get back when they return the watch. No one's taken me up on it. Funny how a guy's enthusiasm for my brand falls way off when that's my offer.

These guys just want to get free stuff with the least amount of effort. Beating me at that game, via buying, then returning something, is way more effort and risk than these punks want to accept.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Enough talk. It's been a long week and I demand a picture of the turquoise DevilRay to help end my week on a positive note.


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

SteamJ said:


> Enough talk. It's been a long week and I demand a picture of the BLACK DevilRay to help end my week on a positive note.


I agree and took the liberty to fix the request to put the right colour......


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Fifth, I've offered well-worn review samples to guys, conditional on them paying a refundable 80% deposit, which they'd get back when they return the watch. No one's taken me up on it. Funny how a guy's enthusiasm for my brand falls way off when that's my offer.


well thats BS right there. we knew they were freeloaders but that is the perfect confirmation.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I started wanting the Bluequiose, whiver started to grow on me, but now the Black is catching up close lol...
I agree more pix plox



SteamJ said:


> Enough talk. It's been a long week and I demand a picture of the turquoise DevilRay to help end my week on a positive note.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Yeah, you guys wore me down with all the requests for pix. There were, um, let me see, um, none at all.










Edit: Stolen from the seller


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

MikeyT said:


> Yeah, you guys wore me down with all the requests for pix. There were, um, let me see, um, none at all.


that is gorgeous !! the watch just shines here


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You guys, you "regulars" here, the ones who get what I'm doing, and dig it - this isn't for you.

It's for the others - the ones who read my posts and seethe with hate, those who will sometimes muster the courage to challenge me when I publicly out someone for being an a$$, and try to say "this is really a private matter, you're acting unprofessional, blah, blah, blah..."

I've got bad news for you, the "screw your influence" movement is catching on, and if I have my way, it'll only gain momentum. I'm telling every business owner I know how to fight back.

After reading the HuffPost piece about the chef in Ireland, I checked out his Twitter feed, where he's even more savage than I am towards these clowns, and the comments read EXACTLY like the comments whenever I post something similar.









When someone who is clearly trying to take advantage of someone else gets exposed, dozens, if not hundreds will cheer. One or two haters will spit and curse, call us "unprofessional", and...that will be that. There's no downside for a business standing up to a freeloader.

Good people have an innate sense of justice, of right and wrong. Most of us work for a living. People who make a living by traveling the world for free, eating for free, and getting free stuff do not make for sympathetic figures.

Ask any 1,000 people, and 999 of them will side with the hard-working small business owner over the online, social media "influencer" peddling a "service" of dubious value. My customers work for a living, and have to pay for what they buy. They're not going to side with the guy who wants it for free.

I'm not changing, and I'm not going away - you are. Slowly, but surely, you'll fade away. This is already the twilight of the influencer. Your movement is over. Mine has just begun.

Buh-bye.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Good lord, doc, your naivete is showing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JorgeT (Mar 6, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

This thread. I catch it here and there and it makes me laugh. Very hard. Doc, keep at it. Overstated online presence< wrist presence with something I bought.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

No messin' over at the Campagne, plenty of K.I.S.S. going on there, must look it up next time I'm over in Ireland. As for all of this creepy, crawly "Trip Advisor" nonsense, unfortunately it's all part of the digital jungle that we all now inhabit. At least some of us are savvy enough to spot this latter-day bullsh#t,. 

It's just part of the daily ritual, every piece of info has to be interrogated to ensure that we are not being ragged; it has always been a jungle, only now it has become a real nest of vipers - welcome to the planet. Keep the faith Chris.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Good lord, doc, your naivete is showing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Pffffft.

Hard times don't last. Hard men do.










All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Cider??? Didn't know that you got that bevvy over in the 'States.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm not changing, and I'm not going away - you are. Slowly, but surely, you'll fade away. This is already the twilight of the influencer. Your movement is over. Mine has just begun.
> 
> Buh-bye.


With the Aevig Huldra being unobtanium, the Squale 1521 being not exactly what I wanted, and all of the other sub $1500 blue divers I saw from both traditional brands and micros not doing it for me, that left the Nacken. I looked at one review if I remember correctly, pretty sure it was Wristwatch Review. They are nowhere near the level of popularity as my favorite watch blog Worn and Wound (and ABTW unsurprisingly trounces them) but have pretty respectable traffic.

That's the thing that I think a lot of these "gimme stuff!" guys don't understand. Quote from ABTW: "I would not go so far as to call it tropic, as it is set off (in our review loaner) against a crisp white dial." LOANER. As in temporarily in their possession, until you get it back from them.

ABTW's current Alexa rank is *16,698. *That is some serious traffic, and if you're not going to give free watches to ABTW reviewers, why the HELL would you ever give any to "random internet dude" who like, totally will talk about it on his Facebook page and stuff? Don't you recognize all of the "value" that you're losing by not giving him your product for nothing?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> No messin' over at the Campagne, plenty of K.I.S.S. going on there, must look it up next time I'm over in Ireland. As for all of this creepy, crawly "Trip Advisor" nonsense, unfortunately it's all part of the digital jungle that we all now inhabit. At least some of us are savvy enough to spot this latter-day bullsh#t,.
> 
> It's just part of the daily ritual, every piece of info has to be interrogated to ensure that we are not being ragged; it has always been a jungle, only now it has become a real nest of vipers - welcome to the planet. Keep the faith Chris.
> 
> ...


As much as I love my friend HWA, and all my friends and customers, I point to one unassailable fact...

I'm here, and so are you.

So long as there's a vehicle, a medium, I will carry my message directly to the people, unfiltered, like a shot of nitro for your mind.

I don't need anyone to carry the message for me. The people are all that matters, not the influencers, just the people. If I'm here, and you all are here, the circuit is complete.

As more businesses wake up to that reality, we'll see more authenticity, less insincerity.

Yes, there will always be charlatans, and a fool will be parted from his money, but people always seek truth.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

"....but people always seek truth." 'nuff said Chris, 'cos that is what it's all about. Your own expression is thro' what you do, we see that and we dig it.

Anyway.

So that's the philosophy and the whys & wherefores taken care off, where's the picture of that bluquoise Devil Ray that was requested earlier?

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Pffffft.
> 
> Hard times don't last. Hard men do.
> 
> ...


All I see here is you ignoring my demand for pics of the turquoise...


----------



## 59yukon01 (Aug 27, 2014)

So there is actually a job title as "Infuencer Managers"? WTF! That can only tell me there are too many gullible "influencees" in the world today. Think for yourself people.......


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Need to start giving these out!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Great. Now I'll be smelling the black Devil Ray that I buy for spilled cider and looking for man fur.


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)




----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Pffffft.
> 
> Hard times don't last. Hard men do.


Nice Jenna Jameson quote.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> You guys, you "regulars" here, the ones who get what I'm doing, and dig it - this isn't for you.


Reminds me of this story from a bit back - https://sf.eater.com/2014/9/19/6573...rs-picky-msg-hating-customers-via-window-sign

Don't know how small biz owners deal with some people...

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

idvsego said:


> Nice Jenna Jameson quote.


Only if Jenna served with 3rd SFG.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Special_Forces_Group_(United_States)










All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> [...], but people always seek truth.


Hey doc, nothing against what you've been saying - completely agree - except for this bit. I'd think that an almost absurd infinitum of signifiers, both in history and very recently, show that a vast majority of people *do not bother* to seek truth at all. Heck, in recent terms - just recall all the utter BS spread during the us election campaigns, or in the UK during ( leading up to) those referendums... Whole swathes of people getting their arse-backwards "truth" from social media and random internet blogs (or morons with a radio and microphone with exactly 0 accountability).

The thing is - (imo) people don't often seek out the truth, they accept whichever "truth" they are presented that sounds +- 'correct'. And on social media, there are also swathes of people specializing in presenting these 'correct' "truths" to willing, lazy audiences. That's your influencers / social media marketing managers / whatever they call themselves. Hell, it's not even a new thing or a new concept, not really - all it is, is a more targeted, less genuine form of advertising.

Anyways. Point being - don't put so much faith in people's willingness to seek out truth  On average, they've shown over and over that they don't.


----------



## nemorior (Jan 1, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> I'd think that an almost absurd infinitum of signifiers, both in history and very recently, show that a vast majority of people *do not bother* to seek truth at all. Heck, in recent terms - just recall all the utter BS spread during the us election campaigns, or in the UK during ( leading up to) those referendums... Whole swathes of people getting their arse-backwards "truth" from social media and random internet blogs (or morons with a radio and microphone with exactly 0 accountability).
> 
> The thing is - (imo) people don't often seek out the truth, they accept whichever "truth" they are presented that sounds +- 'correct'.


I agree. However, I'm pretty sure that people look a lot closer at the "truth" once their own ass/money is on the line. So yes, in election campaigns etc people will believe whatever they choose to, because they're promised what they want to hear and it has to be true because it's what they want to hear and believe.

But I believe that once you actually have to spend your own money on something (as is the case here with watches) then you suddenly look at the "truth" very closely.

And since doc's not running for presidency (yet?) I think he's good to go by assuming people look for the (objective, real, ...) truth before spending their own money.

Btw: doc, if you actually run for presidency you could give yourself one of your own watches as a president watch. How cool would that be? You also wouldn't have to worry about advertising any more. Nor would you need to bother with reviews. A watch that's good enough for the president clearly ought to be good enough for the common people. So I reckon the next step in your business plan should be: become president of the US of A.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Only if Jenna served with 3rd SFG.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Special_Forces_Group_(United_States)
> 
> ...


No, but she has probably serviced them


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Question for you guys.

Someone creates a user account on a social media site, posts almost nothing for over a year, then one day they become the biggest troll, for no apparent reason. No history of interactions with others that made him angry. Just shows up one day, more than a year after creating an account, and starts trolling.

In his trolling, though, he's specifically targeting people with whom he's never had any direct contact. He's calling people out, by name, people who weren't even involved in the discussion, people who never heard of him, people who weren't even online at the time.

However, all the people he's targeting were involved in a previous discussion, with a focus on someone who was behaving badly.

How do you explain that?

A. Real account, real name, guy's been lurking in the shadows, reading, and one day he just snapped. Coulda been drunk, might have just gotten fired, maybe caught his girl riding dirty, wanted to lash out at random strangers, the apparent connection between targets is just a coincidence, stranger things happen, shrug...

B. Inactive account, hacked/hijacked by someone with mad computer skills, but just looking to troll for some reason. Spent the energy hacking into an inactive account just to do some really lame trolling. He's probably the same person outed for bad behavior, but now you see how depraved he really is, since, on top of the bad behavior which was exposed, he also apparently hacks into dormant accounts so he can troll.

C. Fake account, started a year ago, just in case the person felt like trolling, some day in the future. Today was that day. The real person behind the trolling isn't a complete stranger. He's probably the same person outed for bad behavior, but now you see how depraved he really is, since, on top of the bad behavior which was exposed, he also apparently has a history of creating fake, troll accounts, going back more than a year.

D. Real account, real name, guy was always a jerk, but decided now was the time to prove it. He's had a mad-on for some internet-famous people for a while, and thought the best way to hurt them was to self-destruct, publicly, but late on a Friday night, when no one was paying any attention. The apparent connection between targets is just a coincidence.

I'd add something about argue-bots sent back in time from the future, to target leaders of the future resistance, because that actually makes more sense than any of the above, but until we can show real progress on escaping the time-space continuum, I'll rule that out as a possibility.

Edit. Nevermind. Apparently you can actually buy fake "aged" social media accounts, started years ago, by diabolical people who somehow saw the future potential to monetize trolling.

So... apparently this person is so pissed off he's spending money to take his trolling to the next level.

This. Is. Freaking. AWESOME!

Good. Spend your hard earned money to troll. Let the hate flow through you, and your money flow to someone else. You'll be the most savage homeless troll on the planet.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Toothbras (Apr 19, 2010)

idvsego said:


> Nice Jenna Jameson quote.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

I have some social media accounts from back I my early days of dating as a single father. Don't want my kids finding such illicit activities about their dad. So you are saying I could now sell them? Sweet


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Full-on PMP laughter going on here with this, anyway, I'm gonna go with answer A.. Deffo not a rant-bot from some other dimension or Stephen Hawking created alt-universe, unless of course Black-Holes are real and one has recently swept past Philadelphia and our insano-troll is the vanguard of an army of mind-messing forum lice, bent on subverting our polite and genteel online society starting with the Doc.

No, I'm gonna stick with answer A. He's a nutter.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The idea someone is spending money and staying up late, plus putting time and energy into making some nondescript comments in advance, just so he can drop a few bad words in a post to a group, a post few people will see, and which will have no impact on anything, truly boggles my mind.

I can't imagine being that unhappy. 

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



SteamJ said:


> All I see here is you ignoring my demand for pics of the turquoise...












Just had to wait for "Saturquoiseday"...get it?

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Just had to wait for "Saturquoiseday"...get it?
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Ok that put me over the top. I made a list of watches to buy but I'm not telling what's on it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

A need a black leather for this baby....really regret not buying 1 when I bought this beauty. That is what ya get when you make a purchase while drinking and hiding from tha wife. Easier to say "Hey Hun, look at my new watch!" Then "Hey Babe, I think I'm going to buy a watch.".

Have a great weekend all. I am sure I will post some stupid crap on my IG...









Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

The USPS lied to me. They told me my watch would be delivered Monday, 9/25. Instead it showed up today even though the seller transposed two digits in the Zip Code. Guess you can't lose them all.



Darn, that dial looks washed out. 'Tain't.


----------



## Spirit of the Watch (Jun 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Question for you guys.
> 
> Someone creates a user account on a social media site, posts almost nothing for over a year, then one day they become the biggest troll, for no apparent reason. No history of interactions with others that made him angry. Just shows up one day, more than a year after creating an account, and starts trolling.
> 
> ...


I feel like here sometimes they're sub accounts to actual members who want to ask a question or do something ludicrous and not be embarrassed/banned. completely missed out on the context of where this happened though. Actually thought you were referring to someone here (but I've never seen you interact w/ or post in the same thread as them)


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> The USPS lied to me. They told me my watch would be delivered Monday, 9/25. Instead it showed up today even though the seller transposed two digits in the Zip Code. Guess you can't lose them all.
> 
> 
> 
> Darn, that dial looks *washed out. 'Tain't*.


'Washed out taint' is how I read that. Not to turn the discussion into anal bleaching...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Spirit of the Watch said:


> I feel like here sometimes they're sub accounts to actual members who want to ask a question or do something ludicrous and not be embarrassed/banned. completely missed out on the context of where this happened though. Actually thought you were referring to someone here (but I've never seen you interact w/ or post in the same thread as them)


If you mean, you have someone you're specifically thinking about, who did something like that, no, I wasn't referring to anyone here, but rather someone on Facebook.

I actually have seen people create fake accounts here, to troll, or for whatever other reason. One guy made the mistake of forgetting which account he was using, and inadvertently signed one of his fake account posts the same way he'd been signing his real account posts, so the jig was up.

No, the back story here goes back a week or two. In case you missed it, the short version is one of these wannabe, so-called "influencers" wouldn't take "no" for an answer when he asked me for a free watch, then a big discount on one, and made the mistake of making a veiled threat towards me.

Usually, I just ignore those guys, or, if they refuse to be ignored, I'll give them a polite rejection, and hope that's the end of it. When a guy gets $hltty with me, though, I burn him down - at a minimum, I tell every micro-brand owner I know about how he stepped out of line, and if he pushes too far, I go public.

In this case, I outed the guy on my personal Facebook page, where many other micro-brand owners came along to have a good laugh, many people posted comments ridiculing the guy, etc.

That same night, someone using a fake account started trolling the microbrands group on Facebook, starting out with my post. I'm 100% certain it was the same guy. He gets booted from the group, and at that exact minute, another fake account is created, and that guy starts trolling micro-brand owners in that group, then he gets booted, and again, 100% certainty - same guy.

It seems that the group's admins have gotten better about keeping out the users with accounts started five minutes ago, so now the guy has moved on to buying fake, but "aged" accounts, in order to troll the group.

Since it's just us girls hanging out here, I don't mind admitting I'm taking a perverse pride in knowing I made someone so angry they're spending money and staying up late just to troll me and my friends.

The moderators of the Facebook group are MUCH less tolerant about trolling, so even if it only costs him $10 per fake account (which is what they cost), he only gets about 5 minutes of fun before he gets shut down. Do the math. That will get expensive very quickly.

Yes, I know, some may ask, "Why? Why do you do this, Chris? Wouldn't it be easier to just hit 'delete' on his message, and move on?"

Yes, it is easier, and I usually do that. But I believe you get more of what you reward, or fail to punish, so if you let bad actors go unchecked, you get more bad actions, just like letting your kid curse at you is likely to lead to more disrespect from him.

A guy who takes a hint and goes away quietly is safe. But a guy who thinks he can threaten me or my friends because we won't give up free goodies gets a smackdown. It's like being the new guy, first day in prison. Stand up for yourself, or you become someone's property.

When I compare notes with my fellow micro-brand owners, we often find we're encountering the same guys, playing the same games, over and over again, just moving from one brand to the next.

It's not just the digital panhandlers. It's the credit card scammers. It's the guys who take up a lot of time coordinating a huge purchase, only to cancel and demand a refund immediately after (what is that, money laundering?). It's the guys who send back three watches in a row for imaginary defects, then demand a refund. It's the guys who make up phony medical issues, in order to generate sympathy, as if getting a free watch somehow cures Parkinson's. It's the scam artists pretending to be major players in retail markets in other countries, as if the market for micro-brands in Paraguay is red-hot.

There are dozens - LITERALLY, DOZENS - of these sorts of cockamamie things happening to microbrand owners and other small businesses, every single day. The most common discussion going on between microbrand owners starts off with, "Does anyone know _____? I got this odd email from him...."

We're tired of it, and so now we're fighting back - primarily by publicly shaming these losers, as a way to show the others lurking out there - this is what will happen to you. The world will see you for what you are, and the jig will be up. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

If all small business owners were as united in their resolve, and in their actions, "social media influencers" would be a dead-end career within a year, and a lot of these stupid scams would go away.

And before you think *I'M* the jerk because I can't just let it go, understand this - it's not just costing me and every other small business owner money, it costs you money. Every hour I spend dealing with these idiots is an hour I get paid for - by you, when you buy my watch.

Part of the price you're paying is an idiot tax. It's like uninsured motorists coverage. We all pick up the tab for the guys who dine and dash.

So, the next time you see a guy get up from his meal and make a run for the door, be sure to trip him. You could be the one getting the free meal, from a grateful shopkeep.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CDawson said:


> 'Washed out taint' is how I read that. Not to turn the discussion into anal bleaching...


Please tell me you're multi-tabbing, and meant to post that comment somewhere else.


----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

You really hit it out of the park with them subs. Im hunting for one!

-Andrjes


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Da Faq?!?



CDawson said:


> 'Washed out taint' is how I read that. Not to turn the discussion into anal bleaching...


Da-Faq?!? Does tha Doc really wanna know?



docvail said:


> Please tell me you're multi-tabbing, and meant to post that comment somewhere else.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Hmm, perhaps creating a troll account named "SteamK" might be a little too obvious...


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Everyone please mock Matt in unison.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


As if this bunch could coordinate to do anything in unison...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Andrjes said:


> You really hit it out of the park with them subs. Im hunting for one!
> 
> -Andrjes


Hmmmm...account started in 2012, but only 52 posts...how do I know you're not an argue bot, sent back in time from the future?

Just kidding. Thanks for the kind words. I assume you're hunting for a used one, since I still have a few left in stock on my website. If it's a used one you want, happy hunting. I'd suggest starting a "Want to buy" thread in that section of the sales forum. You never know.

Or, set up an alert on WatchRecon.

https://www.watchrecon.com/?brand=nth


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Perfect combo.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Da Faq?!?
> 
> Da-Faq?!? Does tha Doc really wanna know?


I don't need a full explanation about where it would have been relevant, I just want to believe that comment was meant for some other discussion.



SteamJ said:


> Hmm, perhaps creating a troll account named "SteamK" might be a little too obvious...


Ya think?



vmarks said:


> As if this bunch could coordinate to do anything in unison...


Oh, I don't know...I bet a bunch of them show up to pre-order at the same time.

But otherwise, yeah, I'm probably asking too much.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> The USPS lied to me. They told me my watch would be delivered Monday, 9/25. Instead it showed up today even though the seller transposed two digits in the Zip Code. Guess you can't lose them all.
> 
> Darn, that dial looks *washed out. 'Tain't.*





CDawson said:


> 'Washed out taint' is how I read that. Not to turn the discussion into anal bleaching...





docvail said:


> Please tell me you're multi-tabbing, and meant to post that comment somewhere else.


No, I was replying to the bolded part that came after the photo (removed). I should have bolded that part in the original post to avoid confusion.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CDawson said:


> No, I was replying to the bolded part that came after the photo (removed). I should have bolded that part in the original post to avoid confusion.


Ah-hah!

I totally missed that line under the pic. Now it makes perfect sense.

And, unfortunately, totally relevant in this thread.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

docvail said:


> Ah-hah!
> 
> *I totally missed that line *under the pic. Now it makes perfect sense.
> 
> And, unfortunately, totally relevant in this thread.


I almost missed it myself. Just caught it out of the corner of my eye as I was scrolling up, which is why I misread it.


----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

docvail said:


> Hmmmm...account started in 2012, but only 52 posts...how do I know you're not an argue bot, sent back in time from the future?





docvail said:


> Just kidding. Thanks for the kind words. I assume you're hunting for a used one, since I still have a few left in stock on my website. If it's a used one you want, happy hunting. I'd suggest starting a "Want to buy" thread in that section of the sales forum. You never know.
> 
> Or, set up an alert on WatchRecon.
> 
> https://www.watchrecon.com/?brand=nth


I of course want something that is not available. Please instruct your clientele not to be so xenophobic. Shipping used Näckens to random people across the world is a matter of common decency.

Love your rants, btw.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Andrjes said:


> I of course want something that is not available. Please instruct your clientele not to be so xenophobic. Shipping used Näckens to random people across the world is a matter of common decency.
> 
> Love your rants, btw.


Yeesh...that shipping outside the USA thing is such a minefield.

It's not a big deal for me. I'm running a business, I'm always shipping watches all over the world, and the vast majority are shipped from our warehouse, using 3rd party shipping insurance, so making claims on lost packages is much easier. It's a numbers game for me.

For someone just shipping one used watch outside the USA, it's crazy-complicated and expensive. Even if the buyer is willing to pay the added cost, I understand why someone wouldn't want to deal with the hassle.

I also understand why it's frustrating for buyers outside the USA. You're typically getting much lower rates with the private couriers (FedEx, UPS, DHL) compared to the rates we get, which are usually more than double what we'd pay to send with US Mail, but that's a whole other mess.

Earlier today I ran quotes with FedEx and DHL to ship a 1kg package from a reviewer in the EU to get it back here, and it's going to cost me about $200. I can ship from here to Denmark for less than half that using the US Mail, but if the package gets lost in transit, filing a claim with them for an international shipment is a nightmare, and unless someone is creating the label online (which I strongly recommend), it requires filling out a long form and waiting in line at the post office (ain't nobody got time for that).

For a more expensive watch, I guess it makes more sense, but for something being sold for a few hundred dollars, the shipping costs and hassles just kill the deal.


----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

docvail said:


> Yeesh...that shipping outside the USA thing is such a minefield.
> 
> It's not a big deal for me. I'm running a business, I'm always shipping watches all over the world, and the vast majority are shipped from our warehouse, using 3rd party shipping insurance, so making claims on lost packages is much easier. It's a numbers game for me.
> 
> ...


I fully understand. I wouldnt ship a watch across the pond. I prefer being dissatisfied, so its a win-win situation.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Just saw this pop up for sale. 1976 Tudor snowflake sub. $7750. I think I'll keep my Nacken.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> I also understand why it's frustrating for buyers outside the USA. You're typically getting much lower rates with the private couriers (FedEx, UPS, DHL) compared to the rates we get, which are usually more than double what we'd pay to send with US Mail, but that's a whole other mess.
> 
> Earlier today I ran quotes with FedEx and DHL to ship a 1kg package from a reviewer in the EU to get it back here, and it's going to cost me about $200.


That friend of mine with the Santa Cruz had a movement issue with another microbrand within the first 6 months of ownership. He had to send it back to the US to get it resolved.

He got on-site pick-up, express shipping both ways on the microbrand's expense. It took 5 working days from leaving his arm, getting to the us, being repaired and getting back on his arm again.

I wouldn't want to imagine what that must've cost. But: I think it didn't exceed the cost of getting the watch repaired here in Germany and refunding the repairing cost, right? Unless the microbrand owner wanted to see for himself and factored in the cost in order to really know what was wrong.

Movement is STP.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If this is one of you guys, screwing with me....well played.










It's almost as if I don't even have an FAQs page on my site, and the support page where this form was submitted doesn't have links to the FAQs above the contact form.



















All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hehe. "NTH, the purveyor of the simplistic watches"... roll: Also not sure why ppl use 'timeless' to refer positively to a watch. Isn't a watch supposed to be all about being time-full?)

Doc, the real problem is, your FAQ is not on your instagram page. Who even reads websites these days, amirite


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I love the fact that the guy from England doesn't have a good command of English.

Kids today...

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> I love the fact that the guy from England doesn't have a good command of English.
> 
> Kids today...


"O Tempora! O Mores! That an Englishman should come to this!"

Indeed, a regrettable and lamentable display in the use of the language. One clue as to his whereabouts, it's not Brum' - that's a decoy - more like London - any contributors to this thread from there Doc?

Chow,

Alan

Cheers,


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

If someone brands themselves as a "style influencer" but I'm not influenced by them, then are they really? I think not...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> "O Tempora! O Mores! That an Englishman should come to this!"
> 
> Indeed, a regrettable and lamentable display in the use of the language. One clue as to his whereabouts, it's not Brum' - that's a decoy - more like London - any contributors to this thread from there Doc?
> 
> ...


Who can say? If your educational system has let the fundamentals of style and prose lapse to the same extent that our system in the USA has, this bloke could have a PhD.



dmjonez said:


> If someone brands themselves as a "style influencer" but I'm not influenced by them, then are they really? I think not...


I mean...no?

There's just so much wrong here. Let's break it down, play-by-play. Here's the original, unedited version, with only identifying info removed:


Hello there! I am [guy's name] a style influencer from Birmingham UK.

I run [stupid blog or social media account] where I expertly curate content inspired by my
travels and personal style such as my new-age take on tailoring which
I share with my followers.

I am huge admirer of your wonderful brand with its simplistic, classic
and timeless pieces.

Do get in touch if you have any questions, or would like to discuss a
possible collaboration.

I'd love to hear from you!​
And here's what it should have said [notated]:
Please forward to the attention of Mr. Christopher Vail

[I.e., the name of the owner of this business, something I determined using Google for 5 seconds, a human being, who might be flattered by the suggestion he runs a large enough organization to warrant my request to direct this to his attention, rather than assuming he'd be the first guy to see it.]

Dear Sir,

["Dear Mr. Vail," is also an acceptable salutation for business communications. "Hello there!" screams, "I'm sending an identically-worded message to a dozen other people, just like you, all of whom I consider faceless nobodies, not worth the time it would require me to use your actual names," and in point of fact, 10 seconds after I compared notes with some friends, I know you did exactly that.]

I am [guy's name], a fashion journalist based in the UK.

[A comma belongs after your name, in order to separate that sentence into two clauses.

You should use a real job title, like "fashion journalist", which tells me you write for a living, and about what, rather than a made-up profession, like "style influencer", which sounds like the posh, label-conscious, fashion-forward kids I hated in school.

"Based" is a subtle nuance, one which might give me the impression you travel for work, suggesting an organization with a travel budget, something my organization doesn't have, and therefore something I might find somewhat "impressive".

Also, since I'm not from the UK, where in the UK you're from is 0% likely to make me exclaim, "You're from Birmingham!?!? So am I!" If I'm a UK transplant living in the USA, I'll ask where you live in the UK. Otherwise, you can assume I don't care.

I'm managing editor for [stupid blog or social media account, somewhere], where my focus is on informing readers about up-and-coming brands of interest, like yours.

[Again, they're called "commas". Learn to use them. 

"I run", followed by a stupid blog or social media account profile name makes you sound like a one-man show. Speaking as someone who runs a one-man show, I know how unimpressed people are by them.

On the other hand, "Managing Editor" makes you sound like you're semi-high up in a press organization involving more people than just you, another subtle nuance that might make me think of you as something more than a guy trying to make a living on social media, in order to avoid getting an actual "job".

As long as you're going to use words to try to bamboozle me, you might as well follow through with some flattery, but make it coherent and relevant, the way I've written it.

Flatter me, always, as the recipient of this message, not yourself, the way you did, by using "expertly" to describe what you do (which sounds like a whole lot of made-up nothingness), something that causes any rational person to instantly think of you as having delusions of grandeur...

"Expertly curate content" is self-aggrandizement of Olympian scale. What you really mean is you copy/paste other people's work and try to get people to think of it as yours. Since the "content" (read: "work") you want to "curate" (read: "copy/paste") here is mine, logic would suggest the only "expert" here is me, which is both scary and sad, knowing what I know about myself.]

I recently discovered NTH/Lew & Huey/Janis Trading while researching the recent explosion in small, boutique watch brands, and I'd like to interview you for a feature about them. 

[You're not a huge admirer of my brand. I doubt you could name either of them, or more than a single model we've produced.

If you were, you'd know what we do isn't "simplistic" (which is actually an insult, even if it was an accurate description, which it isn't). I think the word you want there is something more flattering, like "understated", which still wouldn't be all that accurate as a description of most of my work, but at least wouldn't be insulting:










Likewise, "classic" and "timeless" are nice-sounding, but also the epitome of generic, smoke-blowing blather, the sort of stuff that gets automatically added to marketing copy and bull$hlt emails like yours.

Try saying something that actually sounds like you know why you're writing to me, and why I should care. Use my actual brand or business name, so I know you're not sending me a generic message (which I now know it was). If you're gonna stroke my ego, then get some lotion and STROKE IT.]

Please let me know how best to contact you with questions about your business. We want to get your valuable insights into the industry for our readers.

["Please" - can't be used enough in business communications, or for that matter, any communications, including calling for close-air support: "The enemy is about to overrun our perimeter! Please drop a f**k-ton of bombs just north of our position, before we all die!"

Here again, though, you're writing me - so make it all about me. Unless you're talking to a fellow journalist, and I'm not one, don't use the word "collaboration" with me.

"Collaboration" is clearly code for "you'll do all the work, but you'll pay me as if I'm doing it." Prior to bringing on Aaron and Rusty as my co-designers, my last collaboration that produced anything was with my wife - it produced my sons, and they're nothing but expensive, constant work, so you're not enticing me by using that word, at all.

And before I wrap this up, here's a pro-tip from an old hand at sales - you already know the most likely question I'll ask is what's this going to cost me. Save us both the trouble and just tell me up front. Any and all efforts at subterfuge while trying to make a sale are not just wasted, they're counter-productive. You want something. Tell me what it is so I don't have to ask.]

I look forward to your kind reply.

Warmest regards,
[Guy's name]
Managing Editor 
[Stupid Style Magazine/Blog]

[Something along those lines is how you end a business email or letter - direct but courteous. Not "I'd love to hear from you!"

I'd love to hear from my college girlfriend. What I'd love to hear is she regrets cheating on me, and I was the best lover she ever had. Anyone who wants to sell me something should be more formal in their first contact, and the more useless whatever they're selling is, the more formal they should be.

PS/EDIT - Lastly, a great irony here is that the stupid blog name includes the word "minimalist", which my stuff isn't, and is a word so epic in its misuse it now gives me Forest Whitaker eye.

It makes me want to beat these cretins to death with a heavy, monolithic sculpture, something typical of the "minimalist" art trend of the post-war period of the mid-to-late 20th century, which everyone seems to think is synonymous with "modernist", the true name for the design style of the pre-war, post-industrial period of the early 20th century, best exemplified by leading names of the Bauhaus school of design and architecture, guys like Max Bill, of Junghans Watch fame. Did you mean "modernist" when you said "minimalist"? I'm pretty sure you did.​
The fact that people are using "minimalist" in their "business" names, when they mean "modernist", is further evidence they were all smoking dope instead of paying attention in school.]









​


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> If someone brands themselves as a "style influencer" but I'm not influenced by them, then are they really? I think not...


I use that same logic when walking my pup: its not a dog park, ergo not a dog, ergo definitely not dog poop.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

hwa said:


> I use that same logic when walking my pup: its not a dog park, ergo not a dog, ergo definitely not dog poop.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a much more positive note...









I got that pic from my factory over the weekend. They re-did the end-links, according to our (Rusty's, and my) original design, which - SURPRISE! - allows the wearer of the watch to actually turn the bezel.

So...on a good-bad scale, we call that a good thing.

Still no sign of the strap samples I've been desperately hoping for, not that it will matter much, if I can't find another sucker - ahem, I mean, "fellow micro-brand owner" - to join me in ordering the straps, so I (we) can meet the new, twice as large minimum order size the strap supplier recently implemented.

Prototypes go back to HK tomorrow, for the bracelets to be fitted to them. I hope to have them back before the end of the week, and schedule photos for the following week.

All that said, I can't wait too much longer before starting pre-orders, and so we could be starting before the photos are done.

Stay tuned.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Wait. Doc. Why give that empty bag even a chance at something from your store? How about you make the same offer to me? I'm def a style ... wait, what? A style influencer? Thats not a thing is it? How effin old am I?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

hwa said:


> Wait. Doc. Why give that empty bag even a chance at something from your store? How about you make the same offer to me? I'm def a style ... wait, what? A style influencer? Thats not a thing is it? How effin old am I?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Andrew, you influence me way more than that other guy, for sure. Not necessarily a good thing, or in the direction you intend, but regardless: you're an "influencer".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Wait. Doc. Why give that empty bag even a chance at something from your store? How about you make the same offer to me? I'm def a style ... wait, what? A style influencer? Thats not a thing is it? How effin old am I?





dmjonez said:


> Andrew, you influence me way more than that other guy, for sure. Not necessarily a good thing, or in the direction you intend, but regardless: you're an "influencer".


The only influence this guy is having on me is he's making me want to start drinking earlier than planned tonight.

I'm looking at his IG profile right now, and wondering how many untold thousands of dollars have been spent photographing this marginally handsome yet completely non-descript post-adolescent wearing generic clothes and accessories provided to him through the largesse of people who I can only assume are other millennials working within the PR/Marketing departments of clothing and accessory brands desperate to tap into that perpetually broke and free-stuff-wanting millennial demographic.

My demographic is generally introverted, geeky, 35-55 year old guys with discretionary income, not "style-influencing" tuition-debt-laden wannabe-famous residents of Nevergettingarealjobland.

Who buys anything based on what this kid was able to get for free?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I'm trying to get my girlfriend into the proper watch game. She had a long lost quartz Tag, but now wears a fitbit. She digs the 'cuda, but not quite enough for $625. I have so much "style influence" though that you should totally give me one for half price.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> My demographic is generally introverted, geeky, 35-55 year old guys


Uhhhhhh.................I have no idea what you're talking about.........


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

(Influence on) If you cant manage to include straps and instead offer the devilray with a pair of those checkered trousers of the lower left photo ill buy two (influence off)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

R.A.D. said:


> (Influence on) If you cant manage to include straps and offer the devilray with a pair of those checkered trousers of the lower left photo ill buy two (influence off)


I was trying my best to come up with a joke tying those godawful pants to the expected style preferences of old guys Andrew (HWA) and Dave (dmjonez), but, A) I couldn't come up with anything, and B) neither of them is so much older than me that I feel safe making a joke about their style choices.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I made some updates to the FAQs and support page on our site.

Anyone want to bet when my next "influencer" message will be?

FAQ's:









Support:


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I was trying my best to come up with a joke tying those godawful pants to the expected style preferences of old guys Andrew (HWA) and Dave (dmjonez), but, A) I couldn't come up with anything, and B) neither of them is so much older than me that I feel safe making a joke about their style choices.


I'm old enough that I can actually remember when that style pant was cool. I think Cary Grant made 'em look ok...

As to cool, here's a photo of my uncle when he played in the 1938 Rose Bowl, and some other cool people. My uncle is third from left. Humphrey Bogart is pretty cool...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> I'm old enough that I can actually remember when that style pant was cool. I think Cary Grant made 'em look ok...
> 
> As to cool, here's a photo of my uncle when he played in the 1938 Rose Bowl, and some other cool people. My uncle is third from left.


Am I crazy, or is that Ronald Reagan on the far left?

Edit - I call BS. That's Bogart near far right. Reagan in the Rose Bowl, maybe, but Bogie? No way.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Am I crazy, or is that Ronald Reagan on the far left?
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


That's the guy. Bogart is over on the right.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Am I crazy, or is that Ronald Reagan on the far left?
> 
> Edit - I call BS. That's Bogart near far right. Reagan in the Rose Bowl, maybe but Bogie? No way.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Not BS. Neither Reagan nor Bogart played in the Rose Bowl, but it was in Pasadena, so they came to hang out with the players. Before the NFL was cool, college football was everything. Most of those guys were on the Alabama Crimson Tide team. Don't know who the girls are, but I'll be they were Hollywood types as well. My uncle was the halfback for Alabama.

But we digress. The point is: THEY were cool. Not the "style influencer" with the plaid pants...

Now a photo of a watch. Which is cool.


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Prototypes go back to HK tomorrow, for the bracelets to be fitted to them. I hope to have them back before the end of the week, and schedule photos for the following week.
> 
> Stay tuned.


Will your factory brush the side of the bezel and the sides of the bracelet before sending them back to you?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> Will your factory brush the side of the bezel and the sides of the bracelet before sending them back to you?


Doubtful.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I was trying my best to come up with a joke tying those godawful pants to the expected style preferences of old guys Andrew (HWA) and Dave (dmjonez), but, A) I couldn't come up with anything, and B) neither of them is so much older than me that I feel safe making a joke about their style choices.


Khakis, or suntans for you ex-mil types, dress up or down and can be cutoff if it gets too hot or you run out of toilet paper.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Khakis, or suntans for you ex-mil types, dress up or down and can be cutoff if it gets too hot or you run out of toilet paper.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Improvise and adapt...

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

We need to bring back conscription. That'll teach those pesky kids not to beg for watches.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> We need to bring back conscription. That'll teach those pesky kids not to beg for watches.


I'm in favor of some sort of compulsory service after graduation from High School (~18).

It doesn't have to be military service, either. It could be the peace corps, jobs corps, habitat for humanity - whatever will give them a sense of perspective, force them to learn to work with others, accept differing world views without feeling wounded by them, see how miserable most of the human condition truly is, and disabuse them of the notion they're the center of the universe.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm in favor of some sort of compulsory service after graduation from High School (~18).
> 
> It doesn't have to be military service, either. It could be the peace corps, jobs corps, habitat for humanity - whatever will give them a sense of perspective, force them to learn to work with others, accept differing world views without feeling wounded by them, see how miserable most of the human condition truly is, and disabuse them of the notion they're the center of the universe.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Bring back a mandatory trade in high school. Everyone should learn a trade skill.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'm in favor of some sort of compulsory service after graduation from High School (~18).
> 
> It doesn't have to be military service, either. It could be the peace corps, jobs corps, habitat for humanity - whatever will give them a sense of perspective, force them to learn to work with others, accept differing world views without feeling wounded by them, see how miserable most of the human condition truly is, and disabuse them of the notion they're the center of the universe.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Bill Clinton. Why I voted for him in '92.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

As long as they're wet and miserable I don't care what it is.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> As long as they're wet and miserable I don't care what it is.


Brilliant.

Ric


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> As long as they're wet and miserable I don't care what it is.


Being able to tolerate wet and miserable is a marketable life skill.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

dmjonez said:


> Being able to tolerate wet and miserable is a marketable life skill.


Sure, if you want to spend your life in a wet and miserable job.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> As long as they're wet and miserable I don't care what it is.


Well, obviously.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Being wet and miserable is character-building. Now, I've met people of excellent character who've never been wet and miserable. But they've been the exception that proves the rule. Adversity and humour - the building blocks of character - are seldom garnered on Instagram.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Sure, if you want to spend your life in a wet and miserable job.


It's a good learning experience regardless of your intended career path. One year, my pre-teen daughter wanted to go to a One Direction concert and assumed I would just buy her the ticket. I made a deal with her that she needed to help me with the fall leaves, that year. Not rake them by herself, but simply help me. All told she probably out in a total of 5 hours over 4-5 different weekends; she absolutely despised it. She ended up getting paid ~$25.00/hour for general labor. She is aware the true market value of that job is only$12.00-15.00/hour and will never do that for a living.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

leave this thread for 1 day and you are lost. That's why its pretty much the only thread I keep up with here these days


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Being wet and miserable is character-building. Now, I've met people of excellent character who've never been wet and miserable. But they've been the exception that proves the rule. Adversity and humour - the building blocks of character - are seldom garnered on Instagram.


I was more focused on the punishment aspect.

Those teens have got it coming.

Ric


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

idvsego said:


> leave this thread for 1 day and you are lost. That's why its pretty much the only thread I keep up with here these days


Indeed, we're the blind leading the blind.

Ric


----------



## 760274 (Jul 24, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> Being able to tolerate wet and miserable is a marketable life skill.


And that's what professional divers do for a living!


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Being able to tolerate wet and miserable is a marketable life skill.


I was born and raised in Manchester.

Worked for me.

Ric


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Back to the Antilles... 
Yummy!









Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I wouldn't mind if the kids responsible for this were "volunteered" to join the Fire department for awhile.

Oregon wildfire: Teen suspected of starting blaze, police say - CNN


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

hwa said:


> Khakis, or suntans for you ex-mil types, dress up or down and can be cutoff if it gets too hot or you run out of toilet paper.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Speaking of khakis here is a great candidate for an nth ambassador for the hipster community, the theme for this collage is: "when is my free watch going to arrive"??"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I did NOT receive this message (yet), but I know some fellow micro-brand owners who did. Only posting it here because A) some of this stuff seems entertaining, for at least some of you, and B) I have hidden insecurities which drive me to compulsively over-prove my point.









As for me, so far, so good. The additions to my support page and FAQ's seem to be working. No pandhandler messages in the last 24 hours...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

R.A.D. said:


> Speaking of khakis here is a great candidate for an nth ambassador for the hipster community, the theme for this collage is: "when is my free watch going to arrive"??"


That tucking in one shirt tail, but not the other, is making my eye start to twitch...

All this talk about social media influencers has my brain thinking about the work they put into not actually working. Like, it takes some time and energy to craft and send all those messages, to get (or buy) followers for your social media accounts, to go out and wear the stuff you get, post pics, etc.

I want to see someone put together some sort of CBA - 'cost-benefit analysis' - showing the crossover point where the amount of work required to generate the expected return on that work makes a regular 9-to-5 gig a better proposition.

Less than $30k per year in free stuff, you have to be better off getting a real job, no? Even for the dippiest of dip$hlt 20-somethings, that can't be enough scratch to represent like you're a baller, can it?

The rent and bar tab still need to be paid in cash, no?

I would also love to be a fly on the wall when these cats explain what they do at their parents' dinner-parties.

"Reginald, explain the economics of what you do to Mr. Creasote. I know you've explained it to me a hundred times, but I still don't get it. Mr. Creasote teaches economics at the local community college, though, and so he may be able to understand."

"Mah-ahm! I told you I don't like talking about my work! It's em-BAH-rassing when you do this!"

Yeah, I'll just bet it is, Reg, like when my kid tries to explain the three hours he was in the bathroom.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

docvail said:


> As for me, so far, so good. The additions to my support page and FAQ's seem to be working. No pandhandler messages in the last 24 hours...


You are assuming that social influencers actually read support pages and FAQs. If they're too important to read manuals or take life advice from a jaded watch entrepreneur, I strongly doubt that they'll read the support page and FAQs.


----------



## 59yukon01 (Aug 27, 2014)

So social influencers are hipsters who carry murses.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Up here in Toronto in order for kids to graduate from High School they have to do 20-40 hours of community service. I think it is a great idea myself.



docvail said:


> I'm in favor of some sort of compulsory service after graduation from High School (~18).
> 
> It doesn't have to be military service, either. It could be the peace corps, jobs corps, habitat for humanity - whatever will give them a sense of perspective, force them to learn to work with others, accept differing world views without feeling wounded by them, see how miserable most of the human condition truly is, and disabuse them of the notion they're the center of the universe.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> You are assuming that social influencers actually read support pages and FAQs. If they're too important to read manuals or take life advice from a jaded watch entrepreneur, I strongly doubt that they'll read the support page and FAQs.


I'm not assuming anything.

My support page now says, in bright red font, that any social media influencers who submit that form are subject to me posting their messages on my social media accounts. It's the last few lines of text before you get to the actual form. Did I mention they're in bright red font?

Are they reading it? I dunno. But I haven't gotten a message from one of them since I added that disclosure, in bright red font, immediately above the form, which is how they usually contact me.

I'm sure I'll still get someone who's too stupid not to realize that's the website equivalent of "trespassers will be shot", but if it cuts down on the number of fence-jumpers I need to pump a bunch of buckshot into, I'm willing to chalk it up to that warning being as prominent as it is.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Can we get back to watches? If you want to bash other's clothing, there's styleforum with plenty of advice of how to never Button the bottom button if you want to style-influence only hard enough.

I liked the "trespassers will be shot" part, though .

My contribution to lead us back on the fun part of the island: 









Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Interesting dial idea from Chip at Aevig. The black and blue sunburst dials on the upcoming Thor are fine, though a bit standard. The linen though is cool, you really don't see that these days.

View attachment 12535015
View attachment 12535023


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> Interesting dial idea from Chip at Aevig. The black and blue sunburst dials on the upcoming Thor are fine, though a bit standard. The linen though is cool, you really don't see that these days.
> 
> View attachment 12535015
> View attachment 12535023


Attachments no worky worky so for anyone else interested here you go *

*edit: have a picture instead


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

ryan92084 said:


> Attachments no worky worky so for anyone else interested here you go https://aevig.com/?na=v&id=10&nk=120-62a6d4c6b0


Really liking the linen dial but I am not sure on the case or dial layout for now. Maybe once the prototypes are done I can judge better. I assume Chip is not doing a bracelet so these would probably be a no anyway.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Said it before, I'll say it again. Chip's the best designer in the business.

I was thinking about a linen dial for a future model, but decided to pursue other ideas. Chip's on the right path with that one. 

Not for nothing, but what really strikes me is the crown, with its grip pattern like juxtaposed bullet-holes. That's the sort of detail which puts him ahead of the rest. Hat's off to him.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

ryan92084 said:


> Attachments no worky worky so for anyone else interested here you go https://aevig.com/?na=v&id=10&nk=120-62a6d4c6b0


Not sure if you mind, but that links to your email address and subscription settings for the aevig newsletter. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Disneydave said:


> Not sure if you mind, but that links to your email address and subscription settings for the aevig newsletter.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Huh, not my info. I got the link from Google.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> I did NOT receive this message (yet), but I know some fellow micro-brand owners who did. Only posting it here because A) some of this stuff seems entertaining, for at least some of you, and B) I have hidden insecurities which drive me to compulsively over-prove my point.
> 
> View attachment 12534157
> 
> ...


I'm sure Earnshaw will be delighted to know that they're now a clothing brand.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

ryan92084 said:


> Huh, not my info. I got the link from Google.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Oh lol someone else's then hahaha

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 760274 (Jul 24, 2015)

I'm kinda tempted to write to Doc something funny pretending to be a self important millenial social media influencer.

On the other hand I probably should just get some sleep... and dream of what the next set of NTH subs will be like. Since I didn't find my favorite in the last line-up, I can't stop thinking what they'll be.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Sea-Dog said:


> On the other hand I probably should just get some sleep... and dream of what the next set of NTH subs will be like. Since I didn't find my favorite in the last line-up, I can't stop thinking what they'll be.


Uh oh. Doc will have to update his support page and FAQs that he doesn't receive suggestions for his NTHs via dreams. If anything, any dream suggestions will go right to the dream shredder.


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Can we get back to watches? If you want to bash other's clothing, there's styleforum with plenty of advice of how to never Button the bottom button if you want to style-influence only hard enough.
> 
> I liked the "trespassers will be shot" part, though .
> 
> ...


Nice rig! I've seriously considered an m6 as my next camera purchase. How does the auto winder rate? I love the idea of it but have wondered how loud it is. It the camera still back pocketable with out the lense attached?

Also great looking watch!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Tanjecterly said:


> Uh oh. Doc will have to update his support page and FAQs that he doesn't receive suggestions for his NTHs via dreams. If anything, any dream suggestions will go right to the dream shredder.


"Dream Shredder" is who Doc is known as among the young hip bloggersphere. Out here crushing these poor kids hopes and dreams. Meanie :-(


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> "Dream Shredder" is who Doc is known as among the young hip bloggersphere. Out here crushing these poor kids hopes and dreams. Meanie :-(


"Dreamshredder" is my Native American name. I'm 2% Slapaho.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

too soon, christopher, on every level.


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I did NOT receive this message (yet), but I know some fellow micro-brand owners who did. Only posting it here because A) some of this stuff seems entertaining, for at least some of you, and B) I have hidden insecurities which drive me to compulsively over-prove my point.
> 
> View attachment 12534157
> 
> ...


I first read the email as the writer being from Siberia, which would have made it a more entertaining read.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> too soon, christopher, on every level.


Bah!



jlow28 said:


> I first read the email as the writer being from Siberia, which would have made it a more entertaining read.


In Siberia...something, something...YOU!

For real, sometimes I bring nothing to the table.


----------



## 760274 (Jul 24, 2015)

It's a bit of a pickle: if you tell Doc about your idea, he'll rip your head off and never makes it. And if you don't, he'll never know about the friggin best ideas since sliced bread









Actually, Steinhart should have named their 39mm sub line Dreamshredder. Look what they've done!


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Trower44 said:


> Nice rig! I've seriously considered an m6 as my next camera purchase. How does the auto winder rate? I love the idea of it but have wondered how loud it is. It the camera still back pocketable with out the lense attached?
> 
> Also great looking watch!
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


Oo, oo, oo, a Leica question. Can never resist a proper digression especially on someone else's thread.

I have a Leica M6 (until recently I had a pair, but sanity has risen) and whilst auto-winders are few and far between I've heard they work quite well. But they cost a bomb and aren't as "auto" as the auto winders in even the simplest Japanese cameras of the era. Most M owners enjoy the click-thumb wind-click action of the standard cameras, anyway, but each to their own.

But the standard "manual wind" camera is already beyond pocketable even without the auto-winder bolted on. There are a few pancake style lenses about (checkout Voigtlander) but the classic Leica Summicron in 50mm or 35mm adds to the weight so you got around 900g (a pound and a half) swinging from yer trouser pocket.

Personally my trouser pockets are already fully occupied.

So what's the answer? Money of course. Buy the M6/Summicron regardless and then skip the auto winder and use the dosh to buy yerself to buy an additional Rollei 35S or 35SE which does everything an M6 does but truly fits into yer trouser pocket.

Not mine. It doesn't fit into mine 'cos as I said mine are already full.

Hope this helps,
Ric

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

As we say, pickie or it didn't happen. Even in digressions.

Ric


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Trower44 said:


> Nice rig! ... the camera still back pocketable with out the lense attached?
> Also great looking watch!





Ric Capucho said:


> Oo, oo, oo, a Leica question. Can never resist a proper digression especially on someone else's thread.
> 
> and whilst auto-winders are few and far between I've heard they work quite well. But they cost a bomb ... Most M owners enjoy the click-thumb wind-click action of the standard cameras, anyway, but each to their own.
> 
> But the standard "manual wind" camera is already beyond pocketable ...


What ric said.

I wouldn't have bought it myself, but inherited it. So.

As to "pocketable" I am not quite sure if you're referring to "it fits in the back pocket of my trousers/jeans" - that's definitely not the case. I'll post a comparison shot with my rx III when back home, that one fits into the back pocket. The Leica, well, no. Not even without the winder attached.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

You Leica guys (looks at Nikon D850 swinging 45MP at 7FPs with an AF system that tracks like a shark that smells blood) I just don't get it.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> You Leica guys (looks at Nikon D850 swinging 45MP at 7FPs with an AF system that tracks like a shark that smells blood) I just don't get it.


All the anachronistic guys who wear automatic/hand winding watches and drive cars which don't need a computer based diagnosing system don't get it either. Let's not dwelve into digital/analog discussion here, please.

The pond is huge, there's plenty of different fish. 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> You Leica guys (looks at Nikon D850 swinging 45MP at 7FPs with an AF system that tracks like a shark that smells blood) I just don't get it.


Well, one of the challenges of a film (or digital) Leica M is that it's pretty much manual mode everything.

Aperture: set it manually. Shutter speed: manual. Focusing: manual. ISO: erm, wot it says on the side of the film box, so that'll be ISO 400.

Pointing the camera in the right direction and pressing the shutter: manual.

I like the challenge of all that, but everyone has a different take on it.

Don't think I'm hung up on Leicas. I get the same manual buzz from any number of vintage film cameras worth a fraction of the cost.

Wanna challenge? Spend $200ish on an old Rollei 35 and see if you can get any kind of exposure from a reel of black and white film using the manual settings, which is all you have anyway. I think you'll be pleasantly shocked how easy it.

Ric


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

This thread is like 50 people standing around in the kitchen, waiting for something to come out of the oven. All who wander are not lost...

There is nothing here
But sometimes a watch is here
But not right now, though


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

dmjonez said:


> This thread is like 50 people standing around in the kitchen, waiting for something to come out of the oven. All who wander are not lost...
> 
> There is nothing here
> But sometimes a watch is here
> But not right now, though


lol, yup


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> This thread is like 50 people standing around in the kitchen, waiting for something to come out of the oven. All who wander are not lost...
> 
> There is nothing here
> But sometimes a watch is here
> But not right now, though


why is it that every party I have or go to, everyone stands around the kitchen no matter how small it is?


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> why is it that every party I have or go to, everyone stands around the kitchen no matter how small it is?


It's where the booze is.

And where those kind of girls (that the other girls shun and mutter about behind their backs) also hang out. In the kitchen with the guys with the booze.

Such is the order of things.

Ric


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

I must say this thread has taken a dramatic change for the better.

Classic cameras, booze, those kind of girls.

Yep, it's looking up.

Ric


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Ric Capucho said:


> Well, one of the challenges of a film (or digital) Leica M is that it's pretty much manual mode everything.
> 
> Aperture: set it manually. Shutter speed: manual. Focusing: manual. ISO: erm, wot it says on the side of the film box, so that'll be ISO 400.
> 
> ...


Absolutely delighted to see "wet" film still being used by someone. Although it was a long time ago, I can still recall the smell of "fix" hanging around in my nostrils days after a darkroom sesh. As for digital, I tend to use manual for my work and try to keep it simple, all of those never ending menus on the back screen of DSLRs are just time and life robbing diversions I feel. Also, a straightforward set-up like yours demands that you work that much harder with composition; nowadays, a huge black DSLR brick fitted with an artillery-piece like lens just screams out "tourist" who just takes "snaps".

Oh and your B & W photos on your flickr are belting, I take it you are using yellow/red filters on some. Inspiring stuff and I hope that you persist with film photography.

This post was tapa-typed whilst awaiting the arrival of fresh watch photo/discussion topics.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

GlenRoiland said:


> why is it that every party I have or go to, everyone stands around the kitchen no matter how small it is?


booze and food. no mystery there.


----------



## John Price (Feb 21, 2011)

Just getting caught up here. I own a classic British roadster, I've been cold, wet, and miserable many times. Now, where's my free watch?


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

John Price said:


> Just getting caught up here. I own a classic British roadster, I've been cold, wet, and miserable many times. Now, where's my free watch?


I had a girlfriend like that once.

Ric


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> What ric said.
> 
> I wouldn't have bought it myself, but inherited it. So.
> 
> ...


Ok thanks have never seen the dims with a winder.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

Ric Capucho said:


> Oo, oo, oo, a Leica question. Can never resist a proper digression especially on someone else's thread.
> 
> I have a Leica M6 (until recently I had a pair, but sanity has risen) and whilst auto-winders are few and far between I've heard they work quite well. But they cost a bomb and aren't as "auto" as the auto winders in even the simplest Japanese cameras of the era. Most M owners enjoy the click-thumb wind-click action of the standard cameras, anyway, but each to their own.
> 
> ...


Thanks it does 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

Ric Capucho said:


> Well, one of the challenges of a film (or digital) Leica M is that it's pretty much manual mode everything.
> 
> Aperture: set it manually. Shutter speed: manual. Focusing: manual. ISO: erm, wot it says on the side of the film box, so that'll be ISO 400.
> 
> ...


Yes I love film and have very, very little appreciation for digital. I USED to do wedding photography on the side, but just started to hate it and realized it was because I really A. don't like editing files for ages. B. don't like the popular unrealistic looking photo editing. I grew up with film working in a darkroom just before the start of the digital age (late 90s), and fell in love with the process and the look of film.

Now I do some wedding videography on the side, which I like substantially better, and my sister does all the wedding photography, that is until the past few weddings we've done where I've brought a Russian rangefinder and a Canon AE1 along. The couples have loved the negatives and prints and I've really enjoyed shooting film again. That is why I've considered a Leica M6, but after some thought I may just pick up a screwmount Voigtlander to try out a metered range finder, though my Zorki 3 is more than adequate I'm sure.

Anyone shoot any medium format? I've been having fun with my Ciro Flex and an Agfa Isolette, amazing the detail you get with such a large piece of film!

Here is a couple from the Ciroflex using hp5+ I experimented with and developed in cafenol. I enjoyed the griminess of these, not your usual perfect D-76 or hc110 results......gues it helps I gave 0 *uc*s and they got quite dirty and smudged. last one is a crappy cell picture of my Zorki 3 with a collapsible lense and its russian lover a Vostok.

Anyhow long live film and mechanical watches!


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Trower44 said:


> Ok thanks have never seen the dims with a winder.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


As promised earlier today here's the comparison shot. For reference and to keep the watchgame I put the näcken into it again. And added a solarcan in order to have three cams in one picture 









I'd rate the rx 100 m3 as the maximum I'd put in my pocket size-wise. If wearability and snap-shooting is the question I stick to the iPhone - i know I know. But the best photo is the one you took, not the one you didn't...

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

John Price said:


> Just getting caught up here. I own a classic British roadster, I've been cold, wet, and miserable many times. Now, where's my free watch?


...did you offer to write a killer hipster blog about the watch? No? Aha.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

idvsego said:


> booze and food. no mystery there.


No. Still a mystery. We have a full wet bar in the basement with a fridge behind the bar and all the food you want, plus a full fridge in a kitchen off the basement and a 65 inch tv system, and people still creep around the kitchen. They'll go downstairs if they want a special drink from the bartender, check the score, then head back up to the kitchen. It befuddles me...

top: Bar in basement
next: View of small kitchen and full fridge in basement
below: TV /entertainement
Bottom: Boring kitchen.

I'll put food out on the bar and around the seating in the entertainment room in the basement, and people will STILL congregate in the kitchen. WHY?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ragl said:


> nowadays, a huge black DSLR brick fitted with an artillery-piece like lens just screams out "tourist" who just takes "snaps".
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


Huge black DSLR brick on a "NIKON" or "CANON" strap around the neck, with an 18-180mm F4.5-5.6 kit lens is a tourist. Huge black DSLR brick on a sling strap around the shoulder, with a 24-70 F2.8 is a photographer.. who has a 10-24 and a 70-200 in the bag.


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Huge black DSLR brick on a "NIKON" or "CANON" strap around the neck, with an 18-180mm F4.5-5.6 kit lens is a tourist. Huge black DSLR brick on a sling strap around the shoulder, with a 24-70 F2.8 is a photographer.. who has a 10-24 and a 70-200 in the bag.


Haha. Too true - the wide range variable aperture lenses are worst. Those go hand In hand with third party battery grips.

That said, I have 17-55 2.8 (which takes amazing pictures) but I often feel a little self conscious about it because it's so goddamned big. Like giant mudders on your commuter - folks must think I'm compensating for something. Worse, I probably am.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Everett464 said:


> Haha. Too true - the wide range variable aperture lenses are worst. Those go hand In hand with third party battery grips.
> 
> That said, I have 17-55 2.8 (which takes amazing pictures) but I often feel a little self conscious about it because it's so goddamned big. Like giant mudders on your commuter - folks must think I'm compensating for something. Worse, I probably am.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It could be worse.


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> It could be worse.


Bah! Yes! As far as Penile-extension lenses go, that's up there.

On the real tho, I shot with one of those, over a weekend, not too long ago, and OMG. So much fun. Granted, it cost more than my daily driver, so I'll just have to rock my 1.8 sigma for the time being.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Everett464 said:


> Bah! Yes! As far as Penile-extension lenses go, that's up there.
> 
> On the real tho, I shot with one of those, over a weekend, not too long ago, and OMG. So much fun. Granted, it cost more than my daily driver, so I'll just have to rock my 1.8 sigma for the time being.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For what it's worth, Sigma's new 85mm 1.4 ART is about 97% as good as the Otus, for 1/4 of the price. Sigma has been absolutely killing it with the ART range lately.... except for the new 24-70 2.8, which is a let down. I've very curious to see how Tamron's new 24-70 from their comparable "SP" line stacks up.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> It could be worse.


Just the kind of lens I need to take photos of my cats.

Ric


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ric Capucho said:


> Just the kind of lens I need to take photos of my cats.
> 
> Ric


And watches.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

Trower44 said:


> Yes I love film and have very, very little appreciation for digital. I USED to do wedding photography on the side, but just started to hate it and realized it was because I really A. don't like editing files for ages. B. don't like the popular unrealistic looking photo editing. I grew up with film working in a darkroom just before the start of the digital age (late 90s), and fell in love with the process and the look of film.
> 
> Here is a couple from the Ciroflex using hp5+ I experimented with and developed in cafenol. I enjoyed the griminess of these, not your usual perfect D-76 or hc110 results......gues it helps I gave 0 *uc*s and they got quite dirty and smudged. last one is a crappy cell picture of my Zorki 3 with a collapsible lense and its russian lover a Vostok.
> 
> ...


Totally agree ! Editing this way and editing a lot became popular when computers and programs started to allow such things at home, it was kind of fresh at first, it gives freedom of creating indeed, but should be used more for special needs in future i hope. Real life will be real life with its colors and feels, this is how it should be captured probably. With feel of life, but not creating it virtually or in mind. Should be done with only a touch of editing.

I am now using a fuji xt2 with its manual settings and couple medium wide lenses - it is small and good enough to capture moments that i meet along family life. And i am really glad that i capture them after. They may be printed and some are.

Thinking of getting a film camera now because of all this, never had one , so need to know a bit more and just start .

Зоркий - 3


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Funny---I thought this was a watch thread. Take it to F73, guys.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

MikeyT said:


> Funny---I thought this was a watch thread. Take it to F73, guys.


That was the edited version? Its a doc thread, and sometimes we talk about watches. Othertimes--should be a word, but i digress--otherthings--should also be a word, but again i digress.

Was gonna take a pic of my watch, but heres a camera instead. At least, thats where its supposed to be, but i moved it because ... puppy teeth.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

OK, which of those cameras is L&H? Or NTH? This is f71, aka affordable watches. I say again, take the camera discussion to f73.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> OK, which of those cameras is L&H? Or NTH? This is f71, aka affordable watches. I say again, take the camera discussion to f73.


Nope.

If it helps we can move to classic rock. 

Ric


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I dunno. While I'm waiting for a watch to appear, I don't mind seeing other scenery...

Cars, dogs (no cats), cameras, landscapes, airplanes, boats. A wise man once told me: You can have anything you want, you just can't have everything. So, pick a good hobby (or two), and keep your heart there. I tend to migrate. I also "was into" cameras a few years ago. Passed through bicycles, boats, still love dogs (no cats). Even watches may pass from the front-and-center after a bit. 

But now, a watch! Got an unexpected complement on this, from a waitress who told me it was the nicest watch she'd ever seen. A franken-NTH:


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Oh, watches:


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

And here's another:


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

MikeyT said:


> And here's another:


i was just going to say that i like polished sides on both, but the back needs deep brushing 
when i clicked ''reply'' you changed the photo. 
Scorpene is the one i adore and was one of my two choices among NTH, but was sold out when i was ready. 
Looks fantastic and solid


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

s.z said:


> i was just going to say that i like polished sides on both, but the back needs deep brushing
> when i clicked ''reply'' you changed the photo.
> Scorpene is the one i adore and was one of my two choices among NTH, but was sold out when i was ready.
> Looks fantastic and solid


Yeah, I decided I didn't want to get too close to Band Camp, IYKWIM.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> OK, which of those cameras is L&H? Or NTH? This is f71, aka affordable watches. I say again, take the camera discussion to f73.


Don't blame me, I've sprinkled a nice little näcken here and there over my camera pics 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> OK, which of those cameras is L&H? Or NTH? This is f71, aka affordable watches. I say again, take the camera discussion to f73.


Forgive me father for I have sinned....

Haha ya sorry, I caused a train wreck, sometimes putting the nickel down is just so dang fun though!

In other news.....I was in a bad car wreck, so I've had to go to the doctors, chiropractor and pt, well one of the visiting inspectors of the pt place I visit noticed the phantom and wanted to know more about it!

So does that mean I get a free watch? I mean I'm giving free advertising, I can even, when I'm healed go climb the only mountain in Maine with it! I mean it's a mountain!!!! Who knows I may even be able to get a crappy cell pix with out anyone else in the frame to make me seem even more elite....elcusive, purely luxurious even!!



In all seriousness love this Ghost Rider, such a great watch that I've not had it off my wrist since it landed on the doorstep.

Here she be, in all her glory with a hemp braclet my niece made

Hold strong the weekend draws near!









Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It's cool, guys. Whatever keeps the thread interesting, I doubt I'll mind.

Here's something watch related. Maybe some of you guys from Canada can chime in and help me out.

I had an order from someone in Canada. For reasons not worth getting into, I shipped it to him from our UK warehouse, rather than the USA. 

When I told him that, he got upset, like, angry enough to tell me he'd never order from me again, and would have ordered the same item from another seller, even at a higher price, had he known I'd do that.

I'm baffled. 

Is there a higher duty applied when receiving something from the UK compared to the USA? If so, how much difference? Would it be so much to offset getting a $500 item for $400? What I mean is, if you had to pay customs charges on a $400 item, would they be more than $100? That doesn't sound right.

It's international shipping either way, so I can't imagine the shipping time would be that much different, and we don't guarantee delivery dates in any case, so if he wanted to wear it by a specific date, like, for a wedding or something, we'd be right where we are either way.

Can anyone help me out here? Why would someone be so upset I shipped to Canada from the UK instead of the USA?


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

docvail said:


> It's cool, guys. Whatever keeps the thread interesting, I doubt I'll mind.
> 
> Here's something watch related. Maybe some of you guys from Canada can chime in and help me out.
> 
> ...


Having resided in New Brunswick for a couple of years, I think I know why he's mad....

The import fee may be slightly higher, but the length of time to revive the item is crazy when coming from the US, and is probably doubled when you get an item from Europe.

It's been 7 years, things may have changed a little, but my friends in Canada still always complain about how stupidity slow the Canadian post is.

That would be my guess anyhow.

-Nick

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

Also on a side note, I still find it strange they often sing God Save the Queen at events and such after the Canadian national anthem. I just find that weird, guess the old gal still has a good grip of the nads....

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Trower44 said:


> Having resided in New Brunswick for a couple of years, I think I know why he's mad....
> 
> The import fee may be slightly higher, but the length of time to revive the item is crazy when coming from the US, and is probably doubled when you get an item from Europe.
> 
> ...


Hmmm...so you think this is primarily about the shipping time.

Okay, but...would that really make someone so angry they'd say, "I'll never buy from you again", as a response to a polite message alerting you about it. In fact, my message was actually to explain why I sent him a partial refund, for an extra strap we couldn't include in the shipment because we didn't have one available in the UK.

I'm not looking for "sympathy" here, just trying to understand if there's some real problem I've caused by shipping from one place instead of another, something I want to make sure I don't do again if I just created a mess for this guy.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Hmmm...so you think this is primarily about the shipping time.
> 
> Okay, but...would that really make someone so angry they'd say, "I'll never buy from you again", as a response to a polite message alerting you about it. In fact, my message was actually to explain why I sent him a partial refund, for an extra strap we couldn't include in the shipment because we didn't have one available in the UK.
> 
> I'm not looking for "sympathy" here, just trying to understand if there's some real problem I've caused by shipping from one place instead of another, something I want to make sure I don't do again if I just created a mess for this guy.


I try to give people the benefit of the doubt so I am going to say possibly too much caffeine, argument with wife, lost dog, or maybe someone stole his bike off the porch just before replying to you. Otherwise why would someone not say why they are actually angry?


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

docvail said:


> Hmmm...so you think this is primarily about the shipping time.
> 
> Okay, but...would that really make someone so angry they'd say, "I'll never buy from you again", as a response to a polite message alerting you about it. In fact, my message was actually to explain why I sent him a partial refund, for an extra strap we couldn't include in the shipment because we didn't have one available in the UK.
> 
> I'm not looking for "sympathy" here, just trying to understand if there's some real problem I've caused by shipping from one place instead of another, something I want to make sure I don't do again if I just created a mess for this guy.


Well people are strange beasts. My ex could be VERY agressive and downright mean and rude over things like this. Yet would in a contradictory way organize things to help the food pantry and soup kitchens.

Just a thought, but maybe reach out to James Stacey or the dude from Halios watches to see the specifics of the importation of watches. When I live there I never had a watch shipped to me so I'm not sure if they fall into a luxury/jewelry category that may be taxed more.

Still I'd say some of it at least could be the extended amount of time.

Hope it works out better than it sounds so far

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

BAM!!! 3000 posts!! Might as well place it here...since I've owned many Nth/Lew and Huey watches...and yes I set date wrong









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I can't be a conversion thing because he paid on your site I imagine so the price would not have changed. I received my Spectre from you in about a week and a half and when I order a Haveston strap it comes my way about the same time so I don't see it as a timing issue.
It has to be something to do with the duty fees coming from the UK. Maybe the crusty ole bag double dips us? iono lol. I know for us Canucks the duty seems like there is no rhyme or reason price wise. I paid about $40cad duty for the Spectre. I got a great deal on a Hamilton from Ashford for $295usd and ended up paying almost $100 duty. So us Canucks just accept it, request more, then apologize for putting you out.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Hmmm...so you think this is primarily about the shipping time.


For whatever reason getting things here in Portland from the UK takes forever. Christopher Ward apparently sent my most recent strap purchase by 16th century Galleon. It shipped on 8/30. Not here yet. Thanks Royal Mail. Yobokies in HK got me my Seiko stuff in a week and a half or so.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Trower44 said:


> Maine


Mainer is the house?! What part?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

we don't do sympathy here, doc. Sounds like your customer is a dickbag--can I say that?--and you should cancel the sale asap. If dude wanted to ask you to cover any extra costs from the unexpected event of a US company shipping from Europe, just ask. Why be a dick about it from jump? The hell is wrong with people? Anyway, I thought Canadians were supposed to be nice. Figures doc would find the one bad apple.



docvail said:


> Hmmm...so you think this is primarily about the shipping time.
> 
> Okay, but...would that really make someone so angry they'd say, "I'll never buy from you again", as a response to a polite message alerting you about it. In fact, my message was actually to explain why I sent him a partial refund, for an extra strap we couldn't include in the shipment because we didn't have one available in the UK.
> 
> I'm not looking for "sympathy" here, just trying to understand if there's some real problem I've caused by shipping from one place instead of another, something I want to make sure I don't do again if I just created a mess for this guy.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Portland East or Portland West? Why is everyone suddenly reminding me that I screwed up and moved south?



Davekaye90 said:


> For whatever reason getting things here in Portland from the UK takes forever. Christopher Ward apparently sent my most recent strap purchase by 16th century Galleon. It shipped on 8/30. Not here yet. Thanks Royal Mail. Yobokies in HK got me my Seiko stuff in a week and a half or so.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

Sounds like you moved his cheese.

If no one else gets the reference it's from the book 'Who Moved My Cheese' and talks about the different ways people deal with adversity/change. I had a Colonel make it mandatory reading for my unit but, heard the reference often enough I suspect it was taught at Command school.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

I dont know the details about customs in us and canada, but here is a thing for Europe:

Say I sell a watch from my personal collection to a forum member (non commercially). If I ship it outside europe (from the Netherlands where I'm based), i have to declare customs. However, when i ship within the European union, I don't have to do this - no customs. This is of course not true for (European) businesses, as they'll need to calculate the tax in their prices. But an ignorant customer might be oblivious to that difference, and get angry if a business tells them they'll ship from the US instead of the EU country the business is based in. (US shipments being the one origin country most reliably charged with customs, at least in my experience) - as im sure you have experienced with many European customers, that are aware of your Warehouse in the UK.

Now I don't know what kind of trade agreements are in place between the US and Canada, but maybe some similar confusion might be going on here? 
Either that, or he just had a bad day, his wife left, kid dropped out of school, and at the moment of replying to you, his dog .... on his just vacuumed carpet, and pissed in his beer or whatever.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Mainer is the house?! What part?


Up North, in Presque Isle, soon to be South Western Maine.

Quite like the state, and up in the north and in the west how many secluded and remote places I can go bikepacking in.

Also yes the south sucks.....I can't stand humidity and heat like you get....

You a newenglander at heart?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> For whatever reason getting things here in Portland from the UK takes forever. Christopher Ward apparently sent my most recent strap purchase by 16th century Galleon. It shipped on 8/30. Not here yet. Thanks Royal Mail. Yobokies in HK got me my Seiko stuff in a week and a half or so.


Damn your eyes! Royal Mail is the finest courier company since the Pony Express, and still uses the same technology. You should be grateful. It might take three months to arrive, but in that time it will have been perched on a silken cushion and occasionally caressed by a bevy of beautiful post-ladies.

Colonial ingrates need to get a sense of perspective about these things. Oregon, for the sake of Christ! You need dog sleds. Or cable cars. I think.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

It's all cool. But those sox???



Trower44 said:


> Forgive me father for I have sinned....
> 
> Haha ya sorry, I caused a train wreck, sometimes putting the nickel down is just so dang fun though!
> 
> ...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Wrt the* Angry Canuck*:

you know, it might be ideological reasons, for him getting mad. Maybe he just refuses, on principle, to support UK businesses due to UK/Canadian history?

(I may or may not be serious with this post :roll: )


----------



## smille76 (May 3, 2013)

Hi,

I am located in Quebec, Canada and have ordered plenty of stuff from the USA and occasionally from UK too.

I admit that I don't understand the anger of your customer. The tax lower limit on imports is very low here, about 60$ CAD IIRC.

Anything priced higher than this amount is likely to get taxed when getting imported. However, there are a few things worth considering:

-If the item is delivered by a courier(UPS, FedEx etc), the taxation is 100% guaranteed based on the amount declared by the seller + extra handling and brokerage fees.

-If the item is coming from the national postal service (USPS from the USA and Royal Mail from the UK), there is a small chance that the item will simply slip through unnoticed and untaxed. I have a 50% rate of taxation when the item is sent by EMS mail and delivered here by Canada Post. I had 70$ worth of straps coming from the USA dinged by 23$ of taxes and a brand new SBBN035 worth near 1000$ coming from Japan delivered straight to my mailbox (both items declared accurately by the seller).

USPS and Royal Mail are roughly the same speed to my location, so this would not be a problem for me.

Hope it helps,

Seb

Envoyé de mon Nexus 5X en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> we don't do sympathy here, doc. Sounds like your customer is a dickbag--can I say that?--and you should cancel the sale asap. If dude wanted to ask you to cover any extra costs from the unexpected event of a US company shipping from Europe, just ask. Why be a dick about it from jump? The hell is wrong with people? Anyway, I thought Canadians were supposed to be nice. Figures doc would find the one bad apple.


I don't think we can say dickbag.



CDawson said:


> Sounds like you moved his cheese.
> 
> If no one else gets the reference it's from the book 'Who Moved My Cheese' and talks about the different ways people deal with adversity/change. I had a Colonel make it mandatory reading for my unit but, heard the reference often enough I suspect it was taught at Command school.


I remember that book, but haven't thought about it in a long while, so long the phrase hadn't occurred to me.

Maybe I'm being dense, but...I still don't get it. If you tell me you're sending me something from point A instead of point B, unless there's a dramatically different cost to me, or my wait is much longer - particularly if I "need" it by a certain date, I'm likely to be indifferent about it.

Bear in mind, I'm saying this as someone who's had to learn to deal with many delivery delays in the course of doing business, and I get upset when someone tells me I'll have something on the 3rd, then tells me on the 2nd I won't get it until the 15th, after I sent out a message on the 1st saying we'd have it on the 10th.

That stuff happens to me all the time, and I still buy from the same vendor.

This guy is telling me he'll never buy from me again, as a response to me saying, "I just refunded you $15 for the strap, which we couldn't include with the watch, because it's shipping from the UK, because that's the only place where we have any inventory left for that item (the watch), and we don't have any of those straps there."

Again, we didn't charge any more for shipping, we just shipped it from the UK, rather than the USA, which wouldn't seem to matter, if he's in Canada, unless...



Wimads said:


> I dont know the details about customs in us and canada, but here is a thing for Europe:
> 
> Say I sell a watch from my personal collection to a forum member (non commercially). If I ship it outside europe (from the Netherlands where I'm based), i have to declare customs. However, when i ship within the European union, I don't have to do this - no customs. This is of course not true for (European) businesses, as they'll need to calculate the tax in their prices. But an ignorant customer might be oblivious to that difference, and get angry if a business tells them they'll ship from the US instead of the EU country the business is based in. (US shipments being the one origin country most reliably charged with customs, at least in my experience) - as im sure you have experienced with many European customers, that are aware of your Warehouse in the UK.
> 
> ...


Yeah...this might be what's going on. I think NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) is still in effect, and without knowing all the ins and outs, I imagine it means stuff can be shipped to Canada from the USA without there being any customs charges, but maybe I'm wrong.

Assume there are now customs charges because I shipped from the UK. Okay, so that adds some cost, but how much? Enough to offset a $100 price difference? That would require 25% customs duties. That can't be right, can it?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

smille76 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am located in Quebec, Canada and have ordered plenty of stuff from the USA and occasionally from UK too.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Seb.

It helps me feel like I didn't do anything wrong, but that only means it doesn't help explain why he's so upset.

The package destination is in Ottawa, not far from Quebec. If the shipping speed is roughly the same, that doesn't seem like a reason to be upset, unless he's just assuming there's a big difference, because he doesn't know any better.

No matter which warehouse it ships from, be it our location in the USA, or the UK, it's the same company, so it's the same info on the customs declaration.

It was sent with Royal mail, and if I'm to understand the likelihood of it escaping customs charges is about the same as it is with USPS, then I would think it wouldn't make any difference there, either, but again, he may not know that.

I can only guess that he's assuming the shipping time will be longer, and/or there's a higher likelihood he'll get a customs bill, and/or he thinks whatever bill he gets will be higher, for some reason, but it seems like none of those is really the case here.

I hate to say it, but I have to agree with HWA here, vis-a-vis, if his anger is because he's expecting to pay customs charges now, and that's something he wasn't expecting before, he could raise that issue with me, which would seem more reasonable than simply lashing out, since, for all he knows, I honestly wouldn't know how I've harmed him in any way, at least not in any great way.

If I could somehow determine how much more my shipping from the UK actually cost him, as compared to what it would have if I'd shipped from the USA, and if it was otherwise reasonable, I'd probably cover that difference with a partial refund, and ask him to forgive my mistake. I'd consider it a learning experience, and whatever the refund amount a cheap enough tuition cost.

The package already shipped, so I can't cancel the order now. I suspect there could be some follow-on issue once it arrives. It's often the case that someone with one bone to pick will frequently find another.

I sent him back a courteous message earlier today: 
_
"Hello _____,

I'm sorry to disappoint you. I'm honestly unsure why this would be a problem, though. If you're in Canada, it's international shipping either way, and we didn't charge you any more for that shipping.

Is there some additional customs charge to receive something from the UK instead of the USA? If so, I wasn't aware of it.

What can I do to make this situation better?"_

No response yet.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

hwa said:


> Portland East or Portland West? Why is everyone suddenly reminding me that I screwed up and moved south?


West. The Portland that matters


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Stupid, duplicate post.

Mods, please obliterate.


----------



## smille76 (May 3, 2013)

docvail said:


> Thanks, Seb.
> 
> It helps me feel like I didn't do anything wrong, but that only means it doesn't help explain why he's so upset.
> 
> ...


Hi Doc,

Nothing you can change at this point and this guy 100% knows that importing stuff in Canada = additional taxes and fees. I wonder why he is acting like this.

I always consider taxes and fees when ordering stuff and when, for whatever reason, they don't tax me, I take the extra money I planned for this and take the wife out for lunch!

Cheers,

S.

Envoyé de mon Nexus 5X en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...I finally got those strap samples for the DevilRay.

They arrived the day AFTER I sent the protos back to my factory, for the new bracelets to be fitted.

Sigh...

Also, my factory received the protos last night. They said they'd return them to me - on the 6th, more than a week from now. Why would it take more than a week to replace the end-links on the bracelets, mount them to the cases, and send them back to me, rather than one day? 

Good question, one I just asked. I'm eagerly waiting on a reply.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Here's a thing - "Swiss Made" - it's a bunch of BS, based on my understanding of English, and my ability to do math, but you decide.

"Swiss Made" - Janis Trading Company

Here's the backstory - I've been saying for some time that according to a thorough reading of the "Swiss Made" rules, in their entirety, and some basic math ability, a "Swiss Made" watch could conceivably be 100% parts made in China, or anywhere (but most likely China), but all assembled in Switzerland, and still meet the standards to be called "Swiss Made".

Apparently, my saying that makes some people's eyes bleed, and one guy took it upon himself to write to the FHS (Swiss Watch Federation) for a rebuttal, and I guess, to stop the bleeding.

Some FHS lawyer wrote back, essentially saying I was full of crap, and to prove it, he sent an excerpt of the rules - the same rules I've already read 50 times, and come to the same conclusion after each time. Not surprisingly, he left out all mention of the big, gaping loopholes big enough for the Swiss to fly cargo planes from China through.

How do I know what the lawyer said? Because the guy posted it to Facebook, in a couple of groups, and without mentioning me by name, referred to me obliquely, by quoting things I'd said, to wit "Swiss made could mean 100% Chinese made parts, assembled in Switzerland".

So, as you might imagine, me not being the sort to like being contradicted, I wrote my own thorough rebuttal to their rebuttal. I posted it to my blog, and posted a link to Facebook, spurring a lot of online commentary, but very little disagreement, even though I practically begged people to speak up if they disagreed, and explain to me where the flaw in my reasoning might be.

Apparently not wanting to let it go, the guy sent a link to my blog to the FHS, who had another lawyer write back, saying that I'm still full of crap, but this time he used a bunch more words to say it. I tried to read his response, but it was first-rate bafflery of the highest order, completely impossible to parse - pure gibberish.

This absurd drama has now been going on for two days. Like I need this crap in my life.

Facebook sucks when it comes to trying to actually explain anything easily, since the text boxes are so narrow, and there's no way to format text in any way. Otherwise, I'd post a more thorough rebuttal to their rebuttal of my rebuttal to their rebuttal.

Instead, let me just say it here - they're full of $hlt, and while I may be a fool, I ain't a liar, and while there may not be a great many things I can do very well, comprehending English and doing basic math are certainly on the list.

And I can prove it.

The blog has links to the FHS site, specifically the sections dealing with the Swiss Made rules. If you want to reference them as you follow along, you can find the rules, in their entirety, at those links. In the blog, you'll also find verbatim quotes - in fact, screen shots from the FHS website, all of which support my case.

My interpretation of the rules has been consistent for years, and I'm not alone. Many people who work in the industry take it for granted that many "Swiss Made" watches - especially the more affordable ones - are simply assembled in Switzerland.

And it's not just a "trade secret", not at all. When someone insists that we're all wrong, it's generally just shrugged off with a, "you'll understand the truth, eventually" attitude. This is simply common knowledge/accepted wisdom within the industry - EVERYONE knows it's true, it's just a dirty secret that we're not supposed to acknowledge.

There are MANY stories online, about guys who ordered some spare links from Omega, and not only did they ship from Hong Kong, the customs declaration said they were made in China. There are well-known companies in Switzerland, like Claro-Semag, which take parts made in China, sprinkle some Swiss pixie dust on them, and call them "Swiss" movements.

Every year in Shenzhen, there's a big industry trade show, where all the Chinese suppliers show off the stuff they're making for the Swiss. I saw a blog post from someone once, where he documented his visit with pictures of everything - "here's a Panerai case, here's an Omega case, here's a Longines rotor&#8230;", etc.

It's not as glitzy as the Hong Kong show, and the Swiss would rather they didn't do it at all, but the Chinese factories make no bones about displaying the cases and other parts they make for luxury Swiss brands. I guess they figure, there aren't any logos on the parts, so what is there to complain about? And the Swiss really can't say much about it, since their only alternative is to make parts in Switzerland - at a MUCH higher cost.

I know micro-brand owners who work with Swiss OEM's, and over time, they've been able to piece together the truth - that the Swiss OEM's are buying most, if not all of the non-movement parts from China, and simply assembling them in Switzerland.

The only real question is how much of the "Swiss" movement is really "Swiss", and I think I've clearly demonstrated, repeatedly, based on how the Swiss have written the rules, none of the parts would need to be made in Switzerland, at all, and the movement would still qualify as "Swiss", so long as it meets the criteria:


R&D done in Switzerland
(For mechanical movements) Prototyping and engineering done in Switzerland
Assembly done in Switzerland
Inspected in Switzerland
60% of the manufacturing cost - which includes all of the above, particularly the assembly - generated in Switzerland
50% of the production cost of all the parts is Swiss, not including assembly, UNLESS the parts which are made outside Switzerland are "certified" as equivalent in quality to parts made in Switzerland, and in THAT case, the cost of assembly - done in Switzerland - can be included in the calculation of "Swiss" value, and it's all kosher, so long as the cost of assembly isn't any more than the cost of all the parts made outside Switzerland.

Those are THEIR rules. And it's not hard to figure out how to do the math in such a way to show that it could be entirely foreign made parts, and STILL be called "Swiss Made". Here's a very realistic breakdown, with the actual wholesale cost of a standard grade ETA 2824-2 ($80), and an export value of $300, which is no more than half what the retail price would be:









That breakdown totally conforms to the "Swiss Made" rules, to the letter, and would still qualify the movement and the watch to be called "Swiss Made".

That $120 could be your case, crown, crystal and bracelet, all made in China, and flown to Switzerland for final assembly, in accordance with the rules.

That $180 could be the "Swiss" movement, plus final assembly (movement + dial + hands, etc), R&D, engineering, and "certification" costs. Let's say $80 of it is the "Swiss" movement, and all the rest is $100.

Understand, that $80 for a movement, that's EXACTLY what my factory recently quoted me for a standard grade ETA 2824-2. That's also about what a Chinese made ST19 movement costs. Again, I know, because I know what the ST19 movements cost me when I made the Riccardo four years ago.

Think about that - even though the ST19 is a chrono movement, which means it's more complex, it's entirely made in China. How could an ETA be the same price, if the parts were all made in Switzerland?

Answer, it couldn't be.

Even if only 60%, or just 50% of the parts come from Switzerland, it still couldn't be done.

The labor rates in Switzerland are 15-30 times what they are in China. Skilled laborers in Switzerland earn $3k-6k per month. In China, it's about $200 per month. Even if the ST19 had twice as many parts, and the ETA only had half its parts made in Switzerland, it still wouldn't add up right.

The Chinese earn 7.5 RMB for skilled labor, or about $1 per hour. Say each part takes half an hour to make ($0.50 in labor), the materials cost for each part is equal to the labor costs ($0.50 for materials), and let's just say there are 80 parts in the ST19 - there's your $80 for the Chinese movement.

Now say the ETA has only 40 parts, but only half of them - 20 - are made in Switzerland, and the materials cost for those parts is the same ($0.50/part, or $10, total).

It's still 10 hours of labor to make 20 parts at one half hour per part, at a minimum cost of $20/hour. At $20/hour, and 1/2 hour per part, just the labor costs for those 20 parts would be at least $200! That doesn't even include the cost of the other 20 parts made outside Switzerland, or any of the materials costs for the 20 parts made inside Switzerland!

And the rules REQUIRE the movement to be completely assembled in Switzerland, so there's already going to be the higher labor cost of a Swiss watchmaker assembling all those little parts. How can they possibly ALSO make the parts there?

The FHS can dispute what I'm saying, but this is how their rules are written, by them, and how the math adds up. If they want to clarify the rules, then they should make the rules more clear - crystal clear, preferably. And ideally, they'd adopt a standard like 'Made in America', where a product and all its components need to be all, or virtually all made in America - seems pretty simple to me.

What they shouldn't do is leave the rules as they are, call me a fool or a liar, and hide behind the complexity of those rules, supporting them by throwing out random dates and facts of no relevance, as if they add substance to the debate, which they don't.


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

because the master of end links is on vacation 

glad you solved that straps situation now !!


upd: wow this is solid information ! thanks for sharing, this helps a lot in understanding what things really are.


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

docvail said:


> Here's a thing - "Swiss Made" - it's a bunch of BS, based on my understanding of English, and my ability to do math, but you decide.
> 
> "Swiss Made" - Janis Trading Company
> 
> ...


Amen, glory hallelujah, praise be and such!!

I, being in the machining industry, see this in many avenues in the very money hungry and greedy corporate industry.

I work for a small shop, we sub through a larger shop. The part I've pigeon holed myself into (very finicky super high finish pita part) has many stages of specialty finishing. I produce the part, then it goes to the shop we sub through, then off to China for electro polish and Lazer welding then off to the corporate supplier (us company that mostly sources in China) in China to be distributed.

We get 55 per part, the shop we sub through gets 200, they do nothing but look at the parts and ship them on. We don't have the right certs at the shop for areo space work (nor could we get them) and that's what this falls under. Frustrating to see how the system is setup that we get screwed over, then the company that it goes to runs it back to China and does all kinds of work to it and screws the small guys and the American tax system to sell these "American" parts from China.

Big greedy places hire lawyers and influence laws to further deepen their pockets. It's like that in alot of industries. Just well hidden lies.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> It's all cool. But those sox???


Haha ya I like my socks "loud"

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

For some reason it began raining in New Mexico.
Luckily I chose the right watch for such a rare occasion.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

1. this Thread should be pinned.

2. hodinkee (yes yes, I know) had a post referring to this issue a while back

3. H. Moser & Cie. Launched a campaign a while back referring to the lax regulations the "Swiss made" label requieres and removed the label from their watches. They want them To be "truely made in Switzerland" - whatever that means. The claim the case is being produced in S. - i didn't dig deeper at that time, although I find that Swiss Alp watch really attractive - but it comes at 10k€ or more... 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

I bet those cunning Swiss have got a chocolate factory near Beijing too.


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> I bet those cunning Swiss have got a chocolate factory near Beijing too.


That actually worries me more than the watches


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Huge black DSLR brick on a "NIKON" or "CANON" strap around the neck, with an 18-180mm F4.5-5.6 kit lens is a tourist. Huge black DSLR brick on a sling strap around the shoulder, with a 24-70 F2.8 is a photographer.. who has a 10-24 and a 70-200 in the bag.


I thought that you'd bite...... anyway, I have a similar set-up, but this tourist would be delighted to have the assistance of a porter sometimes....

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

....and those Cuckoo Clocks? surely they're not suspect and snides too........ 

Much too big to wear anyway.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Ragl said:


> ....and those Cuckoo Clocks? surely they're not suspect and snides too........
> 
> Much too big to wear anyway.
> 
> ...


They travel the world twice - they end up in China anyway. But at a 1000% addition in "value". Because they touched Swiss ground and have been blessed by Swiss virgin hands. That's how all the worlds money ends up in Switzerland at the end of the day /stereotyping off. 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

It's not just the Swiss, everyone and I mean *everyone* is doing it. I helped a neighbour fix his john deere combine, opened a guard/cover and half the parts of the header were made in China. As Doc says labour cost is a tiny fraction in China.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ragl said:


> I thought that you'd bite...... anyway, I have a similar set-up, but this tourist would be delighted to have the assistance of a porter sometimes....
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


Heh. For what it's worth, most of the time I'm using my quite small D5500, Tam 10-24, and tiny, el-cheapo Nikkor 50mm 1.8, or sometimes the 85mm 1.8. I'm also not a "pro" by any stretch. I don't especially like the humongous and expensive Nikkor 24-70s, and have been waiting for Sig and Tam to finally get serious in that range. Results from the new Tamron SP G2 look very promising indeed, substantially better corner performance than the Sigma ART.

To keep this at least vaguely about watches, I'm starting to develop a "thing" for the Prospex version of the 62MAS reissue, which I prefer to the more straight versions of the '65 original like Seiko's own crazy expensive LE version and the MWW version... except for the hands and white date wheel. With Marine Master hands and a black date wheel though..........I just might have to do that mod.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

ConfusedOne said:


> For some reason it began raining in New Mexico.
> Luckily I chose the right watch for such a rare occasion.


Inexplicably, a break in the seeming interminable rain here in England, another right choice of watch to suit.....









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Heh. For what it's worth, most of the time I'm using my quite small D5500, Tam 10-24, and tiny, el-cheapo Nikkor 50mm 1.8, or sometimes the 85mm 1.8. I'm also not a "pro" by any stretch. I don't especially like the humongous and expensive Nikkor 24-70s, and have been waiting for Sig and Tam to finally get serious in that range. Results from the new Tamron SP G2 look very promising indeed, substantially better corner performance than the Sigma ART.
> 
> To keep this at least vaguely about watches, I'm starting to develop a "thing" for the Prospex version of the 62MAS reissue, which I prefer to the more straight versions of the '65 original like Seiko's own crazy expensive LE version and the MWW version... except for the hands and white date wheel. With Marine Master hands and a black date wheel though..........I just might have to do that mod.


Indeed, a great camera, similar to mine, but I do yearn for those long-gone days of Olympus OM2s....

As for back to the reality of today's obsession, that Seiko is superb, and sticking to the size theme, of a thickness that just plain works, in a NTH Sub style. If you do get one and suitably mod, please post some pics.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> Again, we didn't charge any more for shipping, we just shipped it from the UK, rather than the USA, which wouldn't seem to matter, if he's in Canada, unless...


Is there a chance that it's an issue of tracking -- USPS does tracking to his house and maybe UK Royal Post doesn't?

Did you ask this jerk why he's so upset? Nah... that'd probably just tick him off even more :-(


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

I don't care where my watch was made. If I found out that my Omega was entirely made in China, I wouldn't care. I didn't buy it because it's "Swiss". I do care about the quality of the product and high quality can be achieved in China, Switzerland, and everywhere else. When I look at my Omega, the quality is there, so I don't care where it was made. It's unfortunate that in this industry people are so stuck on the Swiss Made label. It's not a guarantee of quality and 99.9% of the buyers have no personal connection to Switzerland so it's just stupid. I feel the same way about every product. What difference does it make if the drill I just bought from Lowe's is made in Mexico, China, or USA? Is the quality there? Yes -> buy, no -> don't buy.


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

This arrived yesterday and I love it. I couldn't quite pull the trigger on pre-order way back when, and have been regretting it ever since. I'd be looking for one of these with date or the Amphion date for a while now, but never was in the right place at the right time to get one for the price I was willing to pay. Well things fell together right the other night during the Redskins win.  I picked this up from cheshirecatiii and was lucky to do so as he had 4-5 buyers right away.

Aside from the rotor being pretty of loud, it's fantastic! Any praise I could give it here has been repeated time and again on the forums by those more well written than I, so I'll just say that I doubt this watch is going anywhere for a very long time.










Well done, doc.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

A little bit of reflection in this pic of my blue Orthos. Between this and my blue Amphion I think I could offload all my other watches and still be content.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fearlessleader said:


> Is there a chance that it's an issue of tracking -- USPS does tracking to his house and maybe UK Royal Post doesn't?
> 
> Did you ask this jerk why he's so upset? Nah... that'd probably just tick him off even more :-(


I doubt it's the tracking, but who knows?

I didn't ask in those exact words, but I did try to get some explanation.

No response yet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rice and Gravy said:


> Aside from the rotor being pretty of loud, it's fantastic!
> 
> Well done, doc.


Cheers.

Lubricating the rotor will help the noise. Yes, doing so requires opening the case, which voids your warranty, but in my experience, 99% of warranty issues come up very soon after delivery. If it hasn't needed to be "fixed" before now, odds are it won't before its warranty expires anyway. If you take it to a reliable watchmaker, it shouldn't be a risky nor expensive job.

So, you can wait until the warranty expires, and have the rotor lubricated then, or you can void the warranty by having it lubricated now.

A watchmaker made two videos for me, to demonstrate the pre-/post- lubrication difference in rotor noise of the 9015.

Pre-lubrication:






Post-lubrication:






I may be remembering wrong, but I think he may have told me that the rotor either had very little lubrication, or the lubrication was very lightweight, before he added any.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Iliyan said:


> I don't care where my watch was made. If I found out that my Omega was entirely made in China, I wouldn't care. I didn't buy it because it's "Swiss". I do care about the quality of the product and high quality can be achieved in China, Switzerland, and everywhere else. When I look at my Omega, the quality is there, so I don't care where it was made. It's unfortunate that in this industry people are so stuck on the Swiss Made label. It's not a guarantee of quality and 99.9% of the buyers have no personal connection to Switzerland so it's just stupid. I feel the same way about every product. What difference does it make if the drill I just bought from Lowe's is made in Mexico, China, or USA? Is the quality there? Yes -> buy, no -> don't buy.


I agree with this to some extent. As long as the build quality meets my expectations I don't care about the origin. Doc has proven many times that the Chinese can produce a quality product.

What bothers me is when luxury watch companies cut costs by making the watch in China but still charging like it was produced by Swiss labor. Their $3000 watch likely costs about the same as one of Doc's $500-$600 watches. All the rest is premium for the name.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

hawkeye86 said:


> I agree with this to some extent. As long as the build quality meets my expectations I don't care about the origin. Doc has proven many times that the Chinese can produce a quality product.
> 
> What bothers me is when luxury watch companies cut costs by making the watch in China but still charging like it was produced by Swiss labor. Their $3000 watch likely costs about the same as one of Doc's $500-$600 watches. All the rest is premium for the name.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Totally agree. Chinese made does not mean poorly made by any means. The Azores is one of the most well made watches I've owned and it was 100% made in China. And the Nacken had a more solidly built bezel mechanism than either Sinn diver I owned.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> I agree with this to some extent. As long as the build quality meets my expectations I don't care about the origin. Doc has proven many times that the Chinese can produce a quality product.
> 
> What bothers me is when luxury watch companies cut costs by making the watch in China but still charging like it was produced by Swiss labor. Their $3000 watch likely costs about the same as one of Doc's $500-$600 watches. All the rest is premium for the name.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Here's where my head is with all of this stuff...

1. When it comes to the parts of the movement, my understanding from watchmakers is that there are processes performed to the parts of the movement which strengthen them, processes like "burnishing", just for example.

I'm not certain if anyone can look at a part and tell for sure if it's been done, and as such, I think issues of trustworthiness vs history of cost-cutting measures come into play when you consider where a part is made and/or assembled. I think it's reasonable to wonder about the quality of a part made in China vs the same part made in Switzerland, give what we know about China's track record of cost-cutting when producing goods.

So, if the part is made in China, are they burnishing it there? If the part is shipped to Switzerland, are they burnishing it there?

For the sake of discussion, let's say that when it comes to the parts in a "Swiss" movement, the answer to either question is yes, and the result is a "good" part, equivalent in quality no matter where it's made, which is what that FHS certification seems to be all about. Fine...

2. When it comes to the assembly of the movements (as opposed to the entire watch), I look at the defect rates I've experienced firsthand, and anecdotal reports from my peers, suppliers, and other watchmakers, as indicators of how "reliable" or "good" the assembly work is.

I've bought 250 Chinese movements, parts made in China, assembly done in China and the defect rate was atrocious, so high I can't really effectively calculate it. My best estimate is somewhere between 30% and 50%. The problems were endless. Chinese factories have told me straight out they don't like using Chinese movements. That should tell us something.

I've bought somewhere around 2,000 Japanese movements from Seiko and Miyota. My personal experience is any batch of 300-500 pieces might have a defect rate of 0% to 3%, and my peers seem to confirm this.

I've bought 300 Swiss STP movements so far, and the defect rate has been around 6%, comparable to what my peers have found with that same calibre, and when discussed with watchmakers, their reaction gives me the impression that it's not a surprising number to them, indicating it's within the normal range for Swiss mechanical movements.

So...if I had to rank them for excellence in assembly, I'd say it's Japanese best, Chinese worst, and Swiss somewhere behind the Japanese. Considering the price difference and performance, the Japanese movements offer unparalleled bang-for-the-buck. It's just a shame people don't think they're as "sexy".

3. My problems with the "Swiss Made" rules aren't really about where the parts are made vs where people think they're made, although that is part of it, and market perceptions do come into play.

It's also about the final assembly requirements, which, when combined with the lack of transparency I have into the manufacturing process, give me reasonable concerns about what I'm getting vs what I'm actually paying for.

The "Swiss Made" rules require that a "Swiss" movement be assembled in Switzerland, and the way the rules are written, it's totally plausible that all the parts of the movement could come from outside Switzerland.

But, with a relatively low, or at least acceptable 6% defect rate, and a reasonable performance-for-the-price ratio, I'm fine with that, which is why I haven't put any energy into determining, or even thinking about, where the parts of the Swiss movements I'm using come from.

So long as the price is good, the performance is good, and the defect rate manageable, that's all I care about, not whether the movement is called "Swiss" or not.

But the rules also require the movement to be "cased" in Switzerland.

Given the difficulties I imagine would be involved in shipping a "kit" where the dial, handset and crown are pre-attached to the movement, my assumption is that everything I consider to be "final assembly" - i.e, attaching dial and handset to the movement, dropping it into the case, inserting the crown, and closing it all up - is also done in Switzerland.

The problem there is that final assembly doesn't require the high skill level of a Swiss "watchmaker".

That's something a reasonably well-trained technician could do, at a much lower cost, and there isn't a whole lot that can go wrong in that process - nothing which can't be caught in QC and/or fixed inexpensively.

It's certainly something which can be done to a high standard in China, so why not do it there, where the labor rates are so much lower, especially if that's where all the cases, dials, handsets, etc are made? That's my belief, that all, or nearly all of the non-movement parts - case, crystal, crown, bracelet, movement spacer, etc - in affordable watches are made in China, not Switzerland.

Consider the added production cost of flying all those parts, and the movement, to Switzerland, from China, for final assembly, at a higher cost of labor, just so the watch can be called "Swiss Made". It must add some cost, no? Probably not inconsiderable cost, either.

Then, consider that I, as the "manufacturer", really don't have any way of knowing, for certain, where all the parts are made. At most, all I can do is rely on my OEM to ensure my "Swiss Made" watch conforms to the "Swiss Made" rules, which, as I read them, don't require any parts to actually be made in Switzerland.

And yet, if I'm working with a Swiss OEM, odds are good that the people who work there are being paid more than the people working in an OEM in Hong Kong, so there's an added cost there - not just the assemblers, but the people working in the office, the QC people, my account rep, etc.

I also wonder, are they pumping up the price of all those components, charging me a premium, simply because they're selling me on "Swiss Made"?

The question I always ask is, "Am I going to be paying 'Swiss Made' prices for Chinese-made parts?" If I am, then I might as well use an OEM in Hong Kong. I never worry that they'll be charging me "Made in China" prices for something that's actually made in Switzerland.

I'm just focused on getting the highest performance and quality I can get for the price we're paying. Putting "Swiss Made" on the dial is less important to me than achieving the best bang for the buck. If all the parts are made in the same place, and only the assembly location is different, I don't see where the added value of "Swiss Made" comes from, necessarily.

As far as I can see, dropping a high performance-for-the-price STP1-11 or Miyota 9015 into a case in Hong Kong makes more sense than flying all the parts to Switzerland and doing the same exact thing there, if the end result is the same, in terms of performance and quality (which I believe it is), but comes at a lower cost (which it clearly does, as it must, considering the shipping costs involved, and the difference in labor rates).

When the Swiss change their rules, making them crystal clear, and remove all doubt about the origin of the components, I'll change my opinion accordingly. Until then, I don't buy into the mystique of "Swiss Made" when it comes to "affordable" watches.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

SteamJ said:


> Totally agree. Chinese made does not mean poorly made by any means. The Azores is one of the most well made watches I've owned and it was 100% made in China. And the Nacken had a more solidly built bezel mechanism than either Sinn diver I owned.


Sure. But. Extreme quality control is required, in order to ensure that level of quality. Hell - we've read doc's musings here on just how much control he has to have over basically everything that the factories do. Yeah, costs of labor and production are low - and yet, there is the constant trend of cost-cutting and doing the minimum necessary effort.

And frankly, that quality control costs money (whether you end up paying for it, that's another question...). Most likely, that's also the "good faith" interpretation of swiss-made rules... that the premiums they charge are justified, somehow, by the amount of hands-on time and quality control that they do. Reality, of course, seems to be a bit different - however, I honestly don't think that there are as many "swiss made" brands producing so many bad-quality watches as there are "seagull-made" brands (or kickstarter brands...) producing bad quality watches.

And.. taking a slightly heretical note now..
The "swiss made" model - where parts are made and maybe even assembled in china, and inspected/designed/controlled in switzerland... 
That's the same thing that doc does, isn't it? Minus the badge-on-dial, and maybe with different premium percentages (or maybe not, idk). As doc himself has said - a significant factor in the price we pay for e.g. and nth sub is the cost of the "nth brand" - i.e. the quality control, reserve for ensuring nth is profitable, and the direct and indirect warranty.

Anyway. It's friday evening and I need tea. Cheers y'all.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> Totally agree. Chinese made does not mean poorly made by any means. The Azores is one of the most well made watches I've owned and it was 100% made in China. And the Nacken had a more solidly built bezel mechanism than either Sinn diver I owned.


Well...the movement is from STP, and it's "Swiss", meaning no matter where the parts may have been made, the movement was assembled in Switzerland, if it conforms to the "Swiss" rules, and I have no reason to think it doesn't.

Were all the parts made in China? Maybe, maybe not. I honestly don't know, and I'm not going to bother digging into it, because I don't see the point.

The only reason I'm open to the notion that the parts may not all be made in China is the fact that STP is doing machine-assisted hand-assembly in Switzerland, which, logically, I would think lowers their production costs, and perhaps there's some room in their costs to make some/all of the parts in Switzerland, but perhaps not. Who knows?

Like I said before, I'm fairly convinced that all the non-movement parts in an affordable watch - cases, crowns, crystals, bracelets - are made in China, so there shouldn't be any discernible difference in quality of those parts.

Either way, we know that the assembly of the movement was not done in China.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

I'm with you guys on this one. If the quality is there I'm good with it.

Speaking of quality.

I seem to have developed a new itch that I need to scratch. I really yearning for a white dialed Pam 114 homage. I have a MWW Iconic 2 that is about the perfect shape size / fit finish but, alas Doug I think is done making those for a while and not in white at all.

This turns me back to the usual suspects from the Parnis shops etc. but, damn it Doc you have me spoiled on the quality you produce.
I makes it very hard to pull the trigger on the unknown anymore. I'm not spending 6K on a real one either.

I'm finding that the white dials are very under represented in the homages or is that just me?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Sure. But. Extreme quality control is required, in order to ensure that level of quality. Hell - we've read doc's musings here on just how much control he has to have over basically everything that the factories do. Yeah, costs of labor and production are low - and yet, there is the constant trend of cost-cutting and doing the minimum necessary effort.
> 
> And frankly, that quality control costs money (whether you end up paying for it, that's another question...). Most likely, that's also the "good faith" interpretation of swiss-made rules... that the premiums they charge are justified, somehow, by the amount of hands-on time and quality control that they do. Reality, of course, seems to be a bit different - however, I honestly don't think that there are as many "swiss made" brands producing so many bad-quality watches as there are "seagull-made" brands (or kickstarter brands...) producing bad quality watches.
> 
> ...


There isn't much room for interpretation in the Swiss Made rules when it comes to assembly. The rules require a "Swiss" movement to be assembled in Switzerland, and that a "Swiss" watch includes a "Swiss" movement which is "cased" in Switzerland, which I assume means not just the literal dropping of the movement/dial/hands into the case, but also assembling the dial/hands/movement prior to casing it.

Where the ambiguity lies is in where all the parts are made. Since both the watch and the movement are assembled from multiple components, "60% of manufacturing costs" would surely include assembly costs, and under the new rules, can also include R&D and certification costs.

The "50% of costs of constituent parts of the movement" calculation could be satisfied with Swiss assembly costs, so long as the parts are "certified", which by definition means they were NOT made in Switzerland, and the assembly costs were no more than the total cost of those parts made outside Switzerland.

It took me a few tries to figure out the language and the numbers in such a way that a watch could meet all those tests without having any parts made in Switzerland, and still be called "Swiss Made", but I did it:









The 60% of value in the assembled "Swiss" *WATCH* could be the "Swiss" movement, plus R&D, certification costs, and assembly costs, without any of the non-movement parts made in Switzerland.

The 60% of value in the assembled "Swiss" *MOVEMENT* could also be the assembly costs, R&D, and certification costs, without any movement parts made in Switzerland.

As you can see in my example, the $32 in Swiss assembly costs is no more than the $32 in certified parts from outside Switzerland, and it's a 50-50 split, which satisfies the 50% "Swiss origin" test for the parts cost, considering the rules say assembly costs can be included in the 50% Swiss value calculation when they're using certified parts, so long as the assembly costs don't exceed the foreign-made parts cost.

When combined with $16 in Swiss R&D and certification costs, the $48 sum satisfies the 60% test in an $80 movement.

The new rules allow for R&D and certification costs to be included in the 60% calculations, and in an assembled product or component, assembly costs would ALWAYS be a part of its assembled cost, otherwise it's not a watch or a movement, it's just a pile of parts, which would be valued individually.

The FHS says I'm reading the rules wrong, by the way, and claims the certification process was set up for parts made in France, and hasn't been used in years, anyway. They further say their certification office in Hong Kong isn't for certification, but rather to combat the production of fakes in China, and that they didn't ask for R&D costs to be included in the new rules.

That was about all I could get out of reading their rebuttal. The rest was incredibly long-winded (he said, ironically) and obtuse nonsense.

It all sounded like the sorts of arguments I get from my sons when they don't want to empty the dishwasher or mow the lawn. Somehow their chores are not heir chores when the TV is on and they're angry about doing chores, or something. What they lack in logic they make up for in volume and stubbornness.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> I'm with you guys on this one. If the quality is there I'm good with it.
> 
> Speaking of quality.
> 
> ...


Johnny Lee / Cobra de Calibre made some cool white-dialed, PAM-ish models. Look for them on f29.

No bezel:









Yes bezel:









I don't foresee making any cushion case anythings any time soon, white-dialed or otherwise.

Generally/usually, black dials outsell white dials by a wide margin, so companies tend to produce more black dials than white.

Sujain/Melbourne seems to be an exception to the rule. It seems like with most of his models, the white dials are the better-sellers.

Go figure.

Did you see the white (silver?) DevilRay?

Ya might want to Google it.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

1. Let the guy with the shipping from U.K. issue wallow in his own sorrow and anger because it is all his own from what I can tell.

2. Still don't understand the rotor noise thing with 9015s. Only hear something if I shake my watch and put it to my ear. Never tried the same with my other watches so maybe there is some difference however I do not normally shake my watches and put them to my ears so the sound is a non issue for me.

3. The Swiss made thing is a hustle money grab like most things in the world. Fortunately for me I buy watches based on looks and quality so the swiss made thing does little (%0.0) to impress me.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Should also mention that you may want to be careful Doc. Between your investigative reporting on the swiss and blowing the roof off the hipster blogger swag syndicate you may end up with them teaming up and coming to your place of residence to force you to wear clothes that are 2 sizes too small for your as they force feed you swiss chocolates (not that cheap china made snacker mess your accustomed to).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> 1. Let the guy with the shipping from U.K. issue wallow in his own sorrow and anger because it is all his own from what I can tell.
> 
> 2. Still don't understand the rotor noise thing with 9015s. Only hear something if I shake my watch and put it to my ear. Never tried the same with my other watches so maybe there is some difference however I do not normally shake my watches and put them to my ears so the sound is a non issue for me.
> 
> 3. The Swiss made thing is a hustle money grab like most things in the world. Fortunately for me I buy watches based on looks and quality so the swiss made thing does little (%0.0) to impress me.


I've come to the conclusion that the level of rotor noise is not consistent, so some people may end up with louder rotors than others, just as some people may end up with better out of the box accuracy.



mplsabdullah said:


> Should also mention that you may want to be careful Doc. Between your investigative reporting on the swiss and blowing the roof off the hipster blogger swag syndicate you may end up with them teaming up and coming to your place of residence to force you to wear clothes that are 2 sizes too small for your as they force feed you swiss chocolates (not that cheap china made snacker mess your accustomed to).


I'm still 50 lbs overweight. Unless I'm wearing a tent, all clothes are 2 sizes too small for me.

Down 12 lbs in a month, though, so hopefully I'll get down to fighting weight before next summer.

Think I'll pass on the chocolate, and have a protein bar instead.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

hawkeye86 said:


> Their $3000 watch likely costs about the same as one of Doc's $500-$600 watches. All the rest is premium for the name.


This.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Funny you say that I own a Cobra 3b and a Crossfire and they are gtg but, not in white. :-(

Is the DevilRay a new model or something? 
Duh! I'm getting one. Dullium it might be the color to get.

The hunt continues...


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

So, I told myself - Self, no more watches over 40mm or 13mm thick. Then this pops up at a nice price, and the walls came tumbling down. On the other hand, it's my first L&H, it's a great design, and the crystal is awesome, so there's that. I guess there are exceptions to every coping strategy. Dammit!

My long suffering and loving wife doesn't even ask any more, since the usual dialog is like this: "Is that a new watch?" "No, I've had this for weeks!"











docvail said:


> What they lack in logic they make up for in volume and stubbornness.


I've added this to my cookies list, right above "Hurt feels is the genocide of our times."


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> Should also mention that you may want to be careful Doc. Between your investigative reporting on the swiss and blowing the roof off the hipster blogger swag syndicate you may end up with them teaming up and coming to your place of residence to force you to wear clothes that are 2 sizes too small for your as they force feed you swiss chocolates (not that cheap china made snacker mess your accustomed to).


If that happens please dont post pics of the incident.


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> Cheers.
> 
> Lubricating the rotor will help the noise. Yes, doing so requires opening the case, which voids your warranty, but in my experience, 99% of warranty issues come up very soon after delivery. If it hasn't needed to be "fixed" before now, odds are it won't before its warranty expires anyway. If you take it to a reliable watchmaker, it shouldn't be a risky nor expensive job.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that information! I may do that, although I'm sort of getting used to the occasional whirring. Glad I finally have this watch, I'm quite pleased with it.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> I don't foresee making any cushion case anythings any time soon, white-dialed or otherwise.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Rice and Gravy said:


> Thanks for that information! I may do that, although I'm sort of getting used to the occasional whirring. Glad I finally have this watch, I'm quite pleased with it.


I've developed a bit of a fondness for my noisier rotors, and will frequently give my wrist a twist and put the watch up to my ear to hear it doing its thing. I'm a bit disappointed when I don't get a nice, long spinning whir!


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

Classy friday


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

CMA22inc said:


> I'm finding that the white dials are very under represented in the homages or is that just me?


Think about the original that the watch is paying homage to. The Sub, various versions of the Fifty Fathoms, and classic Seamasters seem to be by far the most popular. Any of these known for their white dials?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Sounds like your customer is a dickbag--can I say that?


Uhm...










All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> Uhm...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe that's one of the guys the other "well connected" guy Is connected to. And that's the first wave of his revenge. Starting low by confusing you. It's like a DDos Attack to your brainz. You'll be so occupied by this strange behavior, that you won't be able to handle any other order or the management of the devil rays! 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Yeah that guy is definitely an ass. On an unrelated note, my Chris Ward strap arrived yesterday, 29 days after it shipped. I think it crossed the Atlantic on a row boat. Will post some Nacken picks with it tomorrow. Good looking combo.


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Uhm...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There should be some sort of bbb for rating buyers. This guy is something else.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

Everett464 said:


> There should be some sort of bbb for rating buyers. This guy is something else.


I know that in other areas, dealers of vintage items do share info on a-holes who rip them off (quite common there is: to one guy "I've got this X to sell you" and to another "I'll buy your X" trying to flip things they don't even own). So, I hope that Doc and his microbrand friends DO share such things.

It almost sounds like this guy purposely bought something in order to make you ship it just to F you over... Making you pay shipping and then cancelling payment. Or WORSE, receiving it / opening it to make it used / then returning it for a full refund.

Sheesh...!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

fearlessleader said:


> I know that in other areas, dealers of vintage items do share info on a-holes who rip them off (quite common there is: to one guy "I've got this X to sell you" and to another "I'll buy your X" trying to flip things they don't even own). So, I hope that Doc and his microbrand friends DO share such things.
> 
> It almost sounds like this guy purposely bought something in order to make you ship it just to F you over... Making you pay shipping and then cancelling payment. Or WORSE, receiving it / opening it to make it used / then returning it for a full refund.
> 
> Sheesh...!


Sheesh indeed. Wow, that guy's a bag of phalluses.
Idk if there's anything that can be done to prevent this. Short of an IP-ban or some kind of credit-card-number-filtering, there's not really any way to stop a random person from just buying the watch. (And tbh if they're intending to troll, it's not hard to make throwaway emails and ip addresses for bypassing such filters).

Based on that email, is there a way to claim some kind of fraud with the buyer's (or your own) CC management company? Because I'd say that that email pretty much proves that this guy is, at best, planning to waste your money and at worst, do some kind of "here's a box of poop haha" scam that you sometimes see on ebay.

Speaking of which.. on ebay, there's a whole lot of people literally doing this trick: "quite common there is: to one guy "I've got this X to sell you" and to another "I'll buy your X" trying to flip things they don't even own". I bought a watchbox there recently, and, yeah, basically got an amazon product delivery. No idea how those ebay resellers even make money out of it.


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> There isn't much room for interpretation in the Swiss Made rules when it comes to assembly. The rules require a "Swiss" movement to be assembled in Switzerland, ...


Reading FHS Ordinance governing the use of the word "Swiss" for watches is eye opening -- and confusing.

Things like:

Development in Switzerland of a movement: for exclusively mechanical movements, at least mechanical construction and prototyping of the movement as a whole [Oh boy, making a prototype in Switzerland!]

Definition of assembly in Switzerland: subassembling of the following constituent parts may be effected abroad... mechanical movements: the gear trains [a mechanical movement's GEAR TRAIN?\

A watch case is regarded as Swiss if: it has undergone at least one essential manufacturing operation in Switzerland (i.e. stamping, machining or polishing) [Polishing? Really?]

I remember looking at this (just to get confused) when some watch by a Hong Kong company said they used a "Swiss" movement which was made by another Chinese company. Very confusing

The quality and defect rate are key and not the WHERE, but... another is: how accurate is the time keeping? In part that comes back to what folks mean by "defect". Is it a defect only if it's DOA? OR is it also a defect if the timing is beyond the stated specs? Heck some stated specs many WIS wouldn't appreciate (e.g. -20 or +30; or -30 +90, etc.).


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Speaking of which.. on ebay, there's a whole lot of people literally doing this trick: "quite common there is: to one guy "I've got this X to sell you" and to another "I'll buy your X" trying to flip things they don't even own". I bought a watchbox there recently, and, yeah, basically got an amazon product delivery. No idea how those ebay resellers even make money out of it.


In one case I heard of from people actually involved, it was nearly $1000 potential profit if they had been able to complete the flip. The point is: they were, in my opinion, committing fraud by offering for sale something they didn't possess.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

fearlessleader said:


> A watch case is regarded as Swiss if: it has undergone at least one essential manufacturing operation in Switzerland (i.e. stamping, machining or polishing) [Polishing? Really?]


Yes, polishing... (and brushing - same operation).

First, it's literally the difference between a lazy bland case and a premium-looking, premium-feeling case.







vs








Second, here's a case in all forms: iron bar -> Stamped blank -> machined blank -> ground/polished case -> assembled watch.








Tbh I think that the final griding/polishing step is THE thing that determines if a case is good or not. Because frankly CuSn8 is CuSn8 in all countries, and 316L steel is 316L steel in all countries (unless there's some major fraud going on...).


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Brutal comparison with the Steinhart, X2, but fair. Ha ha ha.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Without naming names, I am in frequent communication with about two dozen other micros, and we do share a blacklist of customers who pull $hlt like this guy.

My refund policy is clear. He'll have to ship it back to me, at his expense, and I'll refund him, net of what it cost us to ship it to him in the first place. This is exactly the scenario I envisioned when drafting that policy.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Its why we love you, chris. Expect the worst, plan for the worst, get the worst!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Its why we love you, chris. Expect the worst, plan for the worst, get the worst!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm never disappointed.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ....and we do share a blacklist of customers


Plus you can always go raymond reddington on them


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My refund policy is clear. He'll have to ship it back to me, at his expense, and I'll refund him, *net* of what it cost us to ship it to him in the first place.


Exaxtly what I would do. I'd go a step further and take a good hard look at the returned watch and make sure it's entirely untouched. If it can no longer be sold as new, I'd deduct the profit difference between a new and used watch from his refund. His email isn't going to help his cause with his credit card company.


----------



## priamo (Sep 14, 2017)

docvail said:


> Here's where my head is with all of this stuff...
> 
> 1. When it comes to the parts of the movement, my understanding from watchmakers is that there are processes performed to the parts of the movement which strengthen them, processes like "burnishing", just for example.
> 
> ...


Here'a "made" in China Neymar I happened to notice. Some have Japanese movements, some have Swiss movements. Quickly skimmimg the few reviews, they are quite good.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...keywords=neymar+watch&rh=i:aps,k:neymar+watch


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Just the other day I had a client cursing at my front office. I came out like the calm, collected half Sicilian I am and fired him as a client in front of a waiting room full of clients. I told him I have far too many good clients to cater to than to waste my time on him. After he left, the clients in my waiting room applauded. It sent a message that I will not cater to difficult clients, and the squeaky wheel doesn't always get oiled. Additionally, clients are NOT ALWAYS RIGHT. My patient, good clients get rewarded with my time....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



CDawson said:


> Exaxtly what I would do. I'd go a step further and take a good hard look at the returned watch and make sure it's entirely untouched. If it can no longer be sold as new, I'd deduct the profit difference between a new and used watch from his refund. His email isn't going to help his cause with his credit card company.


We've got a 20% fee for any returned merchandise not in as-delivered condition.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> Just the other day I had a client cursing at my front office. I came out like the calm, collected half Sicilian I am and fired him as a client in front of a waiting room full if clients. I told him I have far too many good clients to cater to than to waste my time on him. After he left, the clients in my waiting room applauded. It sent a message that I will not cater to difficult clients, and the squeaky wheel doesn't always get oiled. Additionally, clients are NOT ALWAYS RIGHT. My patient, good clients get rewarded with my time....


According to HWA, the squeaky wheel gets the hammer.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> According to HWA, the squeaky wheel gets the hammer.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


this. Occasionally Andrew and I agree....


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> I bought a watchbox there recently, and, yeah, basically got an amazon product delivery. No idea how those ebay resellers even make money out of it.


It's possible they outsourced their fulfilment to Amazon. It gives you advantages when selling on Amazon (prime shipping etc.) but can also be used for other channels.

If you're curious: https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-amazon/features-benefits.html

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

As promised...


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

Who is going to lube their rotor tonight? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

jlow28 said:


> Who is going to lube their rotor tonight?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


placed gently on the "T".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jlow28 said:


> Who is going to lube their rotor tonight?


It's my rotor and I'll lube it as much and as fast as I want to.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> It's my rotor and I'll lube it as much and as fast as I want to.


"Aw geez mom, remember to knock first!"

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I just can't think of anything to say that's not going to get me kicked from the forum.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



vmarks said:


> "Aw geez mom, remember to knock first!"
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

I think I'm going to go into Devil Ray withdrawal while your factory takes the super necessary week putting the new bracelets on.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Lew&Huey Orthos, my favourite and most worn watch since I got it three years ago.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sunday, 5:50pm my time, my mobile chirps.

Someone submitted the contact form of my website:

"Hello, My Santa Cruz is running a few minutes off each day, please help to get it serviced. This is the second time I email you and I am not getting any reply. It would be a disappointment for such a good watch without the proper service backing it up. Will let watchuseek community to determine if I dont get the fair service."​
Hmmmm...that's odd. In four years, I've yet to determine that I've not received any message submitted through the contact page, nor have I failed to respond to one, quickly and courteously.

So I look through my sent items folder to see if I could locate a response to his message (easier than searching my deleted items for his message, then looking for my reply).

Yup, sure enough, there's the guy's contact form submission, from 2 weeks ago, received Sunday, Sept 17, at 8:35pm:
"Hi I have a NTH Santa Cruz and I am pretty happy with the watch, however, recently it runs faster than normal, average about 2 min faster per day. Can you help ? It 's a brand new watch and not used much and I don't think this is normal and within the tolerance .... thanks"​
99.9% of the time, when a watch which was running fine begins running minutes fast per day, it's been magnetized, so I suggested he have it demagnetized, in a reply I sent him that same night, Sunday, at 8:38pm my time - 3 minutes after I received his message.

So I resent him the message from two weeks ago, and told him, no need to make threats about taking his complaint to Watchuseek, since I sent him an immediate response to his first message, which I'd just resent (as an immediate response to his second message).

"that's really an responsible reply.. without seeing the watch you just throw this diagnosis out? this is the customer service Janis will provide to its customer? How do you know that the watch ever come near any magnet? i tell you never... "​
Okay, so...I'm guessing we're dealing with a bit of a language barrier here, but I explained -

1. Calm down. 
2. Magnetization happens all the time, without people knowing it. I don't need to see it before ruling out magnetization as a first step. 
3. Have it demagnetized. If that doesn't sort it out, let me know, and we'll get it sorted. 
4. You contacted me twice on a Sunday night, and both times, I've given you a an immediate reply. Maybe dial back the aggression a bit.

This guy didn't even buy the watch from me, not that it would matter, but still...

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but do people think they'll get BETTER service when they act like that?


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Stay on your toes Doc.
You may be the target of a concerted effort to damage your brand as retaliation. 
It is all about timing and these two events come on the heels of you outing some dead beats.

Concern trolling is what it looks like on face value.

Carry on and don't forget the hammer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> Stay on your toes Doc.
> You may be the target of a concerted effort to damage your brand as retaliation.
> It is all about timing and these two events come on the heels of you outing some dead beats.
> 
> ...


Maybe, but I believe the guy actually does have a Santa Cruz, it really is running fast, and if he wanted to troll me or try to trash my reputation, he didn't need to start out by contacting me privately, twice. Why not just go online and say he got one of my watches, and it's a POS?

My assessment is he's got just enough watch knowledge to be dangerous, but not enough to know how common magnetization is, and either didn't see, or didn't like my first response, 2 weeks ago, or my 2nd response tonight, so thought he'd get internet outraged with me - https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/nth-s...off-day-micro-brand-services-bad-4544537.html.

I'm not sure how well it's going to work out, but I guess we'll see when the "bash the micro" boys show up.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just an idea - someone should make that guy a lowball offer on the watch. Since he's so disappointed, he may want to get rid of it. 

Have it demagnetized. If that doesn't sort it out, let me know, and we'll sort it out.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Doc, see post 6581 in NTH: A new Line....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Doc, see post 6581 in NTH: A new Line....


Yep. Saw it.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Third Janis watch in a row! Wearing my Phantom today.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I think I am now having dreams about watches!!! 
I thought for sure I saw a post somewhere about a new prototype from Doc, The Renegade complete with pics. 
Am I really dreaming this ****e? 
Is it because my beloved team sucks yet again and we let the Eagles have 1 heck of a WR so I want happiness as well?


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

docvail said:


> Maybe, but I believe the guy actually does have a Santa Cruz, it really is running fast, and if he wanted to troll me or try to trash my reputation, he didn't need to start out by contacting me privately, twice. Why not just go online and say he got one of my watches, and it's a POS?
> 
> My assessment is he's got just enough watch knowledge to be dangerous, but not enough to know how common magnetization is, and either didn't see, or didn't like my first response, 2 weeks ago, or my 2nd response tonight, so thought he'd get internet outraged with me - https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/nth-s...off-day-micro-brand-services-bad-4544537.html.
> 
> I'm not sure how well it's going to work out, but I guess we'll see when the "bash the micro" boys show up.


If it's any consolation, the OP is currently taking a beating in his NTH bashing thread.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bleedingblue said:


> If it's any consolation, the OP is currently taking a beating in his NTH bashing thread.


It is some.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I think my watch already needs a new battery Doc. When I took it out of the box this morning it was not running. :-s







I'll be sure to send several (atleast 15) emails about it as well as start a few threads on here, report this on Facebook, Instagram, send out a few hundred faxes, a full report on my blog and of course alert my states attorney general. :-|


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I can see why Doc's hair may be turning prematurely white.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

Doesn't stress cause hormone release which helps your body store fat? If so, it looks like we're slowly killing Doc.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I have read that is does in fact help with the storage as well as the lack of wanting to move.

I have battled this now for a very long time and sometimes I do not even want to get out of bed, let's not even talk about working out.

So we should all join our collective hands and help Doc up, beat the non-conformists, and when we are all happy, Hug each other with no shirts....lots of hugs from behind!!!



CDawson said:


> Doesn't stress cause hormone release which helps your body store fat? If so, it looks like we're slowly killing Doc.


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I have read that is does in fact help with the storage as well as the lack of wanting to move.
> 
> I have battled this now for a very long time and sometimes I do not even want to get out of bed, let's not even talk about working out.
> 
> So we should all join our collective hands and help Doc up, beat the non-conformists, and when we are all happy, Hug each other with no shirts....lots of hugs from behind!!!


You had me until the behind part.......

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

People are ridiculous sometimes...... obviously not going to turn anyone away from you at wus, but goodness the self-righteousness!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

OOOh the bracelet on the Phantom is nice.


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Just an idea - someone should make that guy a lowball offer on the watch. Since he's so disappointed, he may want to get rid of it.
> 
> Have it demagnetized. If that doesn't sort it out, let me know, and we'll sort it out.


Now you are just being selfish, if everyone had that attitude people would run out of excuses to complain and b!tch online, a very important human need nowadays.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

I ran 2 minutes fast today myself. Should I demagnetize, then? 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## j-s (Dec 17, 2013)

Apologies if this has been answered in the previous 400+ pages, but will any of the currently sold out Nth models be making a reappearance? My Oberon need some Näcken and Azores company…


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

j-s said:


> Apologies if this has been answered in the previous 400+ pages, but will any of the currently sold out Nth models be making a reappearance? My Oberon need some Näcken and Azores company&#8230;


An Azores went up for sale yesterday, and there's another one that's been sitting on the FS market for a couple of weeks. Nackens seem to move fast, so you'll have to set an alert for one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

j-s said:


> Apologies if this has been answered in the previous 400+ pages, but will any of the currently sold out Nth models be making a reappearance? My Oberon need some Näcken and Azores company&#8230;


Maybe.

Shipping, Returns, Warranty, Pre-Order Policies & FAQs


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Uhm...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just an update on this...

The order was placed on the 25th, last Monday. As of the 29th (Friday), the package was in Ottawa, Canada, so good on the UK's Royal Mail, as that's blistering speed, all things considered, and compared to how long it might have taken had we shipped from our USA warehouse.

I would hope that the package would be delivered early this week. 7 to 11 days for us to deliver an order to someone in Canada ain't bad, I don't think. Our website actually says it can take 7 to 10 _business_ days, which could be 9 to 14 calendar days, NOT including the time it takes to clear customs.

The last two orders we shipped to Canada from our USA warehouse took 15 and 17 days, total, including customs clearance.

Still no further response from this gentleman, nor any explanation regarding why he's so upset.


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Still no further response from this gentleman, nor any explanation regarding why he's so upset.


(Covertly steering the thread to hipster bashing again)

If the rumours of rejected blogger retribution are true he might be consulting with the hipster council on how to proceed....

"So children of the universe, who is available tomorrow to go throw broccoli at docs house? That will teach him"


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Do it yourself demagnetizing:

https://gearpatrol.com/2016/08/03/how-to-demagnetize-a-watch/

Or, I've also heard, but not verified, that running it through the thing at Home Depot (or Best Buy, or any other big-box store) that deactivates the alarm strips in expensive stuff will work equally well...


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> Maybe, but I believe the guy actually does have a Santa Cruz, it really is running fast, and if he wanted to troll me or try to trash my reputation, he didn't need to start out by contacting me privately, twice. Why not just go online and say he got one of my watches, and it's a POS?
> 
> My assessment is he's got just enough watch knowledge to be dangerous, but not enough to know how common magnetization is, and either didn't see, or didn't like my first response, 2 weeks ago, or my 2nd response tonight, so thought he'd get internet outraged with me - https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/nth-s...off-day-micro-brand-services-bad-4544537.html.
> 
> I'm not sure how well it's going to work out, but I guess we'll see when the "bash the micro" boys show up.


I had a similar problem with a different watch from a different micro... I had never heard of a watch being magnetized, but looked into it and found out it was a real thing. I found out how to test it. It was not magnetized. Responded to micro owner a 2nd time stating that I had the watch checked, and it was not magnetized. I was provided return info right away. Watch was sent back repaired and working good as new. I sent a follow up email to find out what the root cause was... (my symptoms were slightly different... would "jump" an hour periodically). Turns out on that watch, the hour hand was not installed correctly, or had become loose or something like that.

All this to say that your response to the guy was almost identical to the response I received from another micro owner. Also, the steps taken to resolve my issue sound exactly like the steps in place that you provide. Missing link here seems to be that watch movement magnetization is not really a "known" issue.... especially with "newbs". I just have the nasty habit of researching everything, so found out that this is very common on my own. When it was proven to not be the issue, the return/repair process was smooth and easy.

I still stand by my word that Doc provides great customer service, as does the other micro guy referred to above.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Silly duplicate post...


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

Looks to me like someone has come across an omega watch needing to be de-magnetized in the past https://www.watchuseek.com/f20/when...age-omega-seamaster-3319210.html#post30623138


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kit7 said:


> Looks to me like someone has come across an omega watch needing to be de-magnetized in the past https://www.watchuseek.com/f20/when...age-omega-seamaster-3319210.html#post30623138


I just skimmed that page. First mention of magnetization was 4 days after my guy's post, so it's possible he never saw it.

Bear in mind, I'm fairly cynical when it comes to human nature, so I'm not averse to seeing dishonesty when it seems likely to be involved, but at the same time, I try to avoid looking for explanations which are more complicated, when the simple explanations will do.

The simplest explanation here is this:

1. The guy never heard of a watch being magnetized. That's not hard to believe.

2. Somehow he never saw my initial response, OR, he saw it, but chose to ignore it for some reason, maybe because he didn't like it, and decided to act like I never responded when he sent his second message. I don't know why he didn't see my first reply if he saw my second reply instantly. No idea.

3. When he got my second response, I know he saw it, because he replied to it, but instead of realizing he'd accused/threatened me unfairly, he doubled down.

Why?

Maybe he's a cheap and/or lazy bastard who doesn't feel like bothering with demagnetizing. Maybe he thought I'd pay return shipping to have it done here. Maybe he thought I was blowing him off. Maybe he's a miserable $hlt who enjoys treating people poorly.

I don't know what his reasons are, and they don't really matter to me. I don't need to know.

If he tries to have it demagnetized, and that doesn't work, I'll have him return the watch here, at his expense, whatever that costs. We'll fix it. If it's something covered under warranty, we won't charge for the repair. If it's not covered under warranty, we will charge for it.

Either way, since he didn't buy the watch from me, he'll have to pay return shipping costs when he pays for the repair.

I'm not responsible for shipping costs after I've made good delivery to the original purchaser. Whoever that was, if the watch wasn't working on delivery, I'm sure we'd have heard about it.

If the original purchaser sells the watch to some guy in East Bumf**k, that's not any of my business, nor is covering the cost of getting it back here from there, if the guy in EBF suddenly has some problem with it. That's life in EBF, I guess.

If I would have been inclined to take a different view of things, the email exchange we had, and that thread, has removed any such inclination.

The moral of the story is, don't get $hltty with people and then expect them to go out of their way to help you.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This.

FAQ's about the NTH DevilRay pre-order and delivery timeline. - Janis Trading Company

36 hours from now, we roll.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Just got the e-mail.
Sad to think I won't be able to participate in the pre-order madness this year...stupid college.
I will be admiring at a distance these beauties when they are released to the public.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I build watches and so purchase movements from various sources through the 'Bay. I've gotten movements so magnetized right out of the the plastic case that they jump 5 minutes a day. So now as soon as they arrive I just pop them with the demagnetizer I picked up on Amazon, then I can regulate them after a build.

Oh and here's a picture of a Watch!  btw not one of my builds!










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

It is funny, before the 36 hr countdown, I was about to announce my folding. Wife has recently had a bit of a bout with the Dentist and well, The house always wins...So the funds have a gone a lil downwards.As well as I have been dealing with a bit of self-loathing lately, been a real rough ride this year emotionally.

So I was thinking of waving the white flag on the DevilRay. Now to get the email and see it on Facebook I remembered that quitting is for b!she$ and I have seen too much and lived through too much to back out.

Now my never ending self questioning is asking me, Bluquoise? Black? or coming up a close 2nd the Whilver?

Damn Doc!!! Why bro why?!?!


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Ojibway Bob said:


> It is funny, before the 36 hr countdown, I was about to announce my folding. Wife has recently had a bit of a bout with the Dentist and well, The house always wins...So the funds have a gone a lil downwards.As well as I have been dealing with a bit of self-loathing lately, been a real rough ride this year emotionally.
> 
> So I was thinking of waving the white flag on the DevilRay. Now to get the email and see it on Facebook I remembered that quitting is for b!she$ and I have seen too much and lived through too much to back out.
> 
> ...


Same here buddy.. I'm torn between the colours.. especially the blue and white!

BTW, hope everything's alright at home..


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

jamesezra said:


> Same here buddy.. I'm torn between the colours.. especially the blue and white!
> 
> BTW, hope everything's alright at home..


Go with the whilver

 so there are more turquoise for me.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

ryan92084 said:


> Go with the whilver
> 
> so there are more turquoise for me.


LOL... i see that small font...

Worried about how the white would look. the prototype seems silver-ish/aluminium to me


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Lol I was all for Bluquoise but the black and Whilver is really tickling my cockles

Oh, and about the Home..Usual stuff...15 yr old Daughter Anxiety, Menopausal Wife with other issues, and an 18 yr Son who knows everything....

this is why we have watches!! lol



jamesezra said:


> Same here buddy.. I'm torn between the colours.. especially the blue and white!
> 
> BTW, hope everything's alright at home..


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Lol I was all for Bluquoise but the black and Whilver is really tickling my cockles
> 
> Oh, and about the Home..Usual stuff...15 yr old Daughter Anxiety, Menopausal Wife with other issues, and an 18 yr Son who knows everything....
> 
> this is why we have watches!! lol


Ah I see. Business as usual I guess? 
Everything will blow over...when the Bluquoise is finally released.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I thought I got banned!!! I suddenly got a message that my pasword was expired!!!! 

I was worried I crossed a line somewhere and forgot to look back 

Did I win a prize? Reached a milestone as most useless posts?


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

jamesezra said:


> LOL... i see that small font...
> 
> Worried about how the white would look. the prototype *seems silver-ish/aluminium* to me


Platinum?


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Lol I was all for Bluquoise but the black and Whilver is really tickling my cockles
> 
> Oh, and about the Home..Usual stuff...15 yr old Daughter Anxiety, Menopausal Wife with other issues, and an 18 yr Son who knows everything....
> 
> this is why we have watches!! lol


We're practically twins. I have an 18 year old daughter w/anxiety, a 16 year old daughter who knows everything, and a pre-menopausal wife. I also have a cupboard full of Jack Daniels, so...


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I do enjoy my Whiskey/Whisky/Bourbon. You should try Suntori Japonese. Real nice...I have also been enjoying Gretzky's Red Cask lately. very buttery..... And you are right, it does help hahaha



CDawson said:


> We're practically twins. I have an 18 year old daughter w/anxiety, a 16 year old daughter who knows everything, and a pre-menopausal wife. I also have a cupboard full of Jack Daniels, so...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Here's an idea....and I'm just spit-ballin' here, but...

How about all the "camera geeks" get together with all the "booze geeks", who'll get a good buzz on, then go out and find the "send Chris a nasty-gram" guys, on whom the booze geeks will play nasty pranks, and the camera geeks will immortalize it all with beautiful photography, which will be posted here for everyone's amusement.

Sounds like a plan, don't it? 

Everyone ready? 

We go on 3.

1...2...


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I do enjoy my Whiskey/Whisky/Bourbon. You should try Suntori Japonese. Real nice...I have also been enjoying Gretzky's Red Cask lately. very buttery..... And you are right, it does help hahaha


I mix so there's no point in buying the expensive stuff. I do enjoy Gentleman Jack but that's as much as I'll spend on a bottle.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Whatdya think el_geek and i have been doing all these years?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

docvail said:


> Here's an idea....and I'm just spit-ballin' here, but...
> 
> How about all the "camera geeks" get together with all the "booze geeks", who'll get a good buzz on, then go out and find the "send Chris a nasty-gram" guys, on whom the booze geeks will play nasty pranks, and the camera geeks will immortalize it all with beautiful photography, which will be posted here for everyone's amusement.
> 
> ...


What if your into both? I shoot fairly strait with some fire in my belly

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Looks like my Paypal credit balance is going up tomorrow. I'll be selling a couple on the back end.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Two things.

1.








2.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

I woke up in a literal cold sweat thinking I missed the Spectre II preorders. Did I?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> I woke up in a literal cold sweat thinking I missed the Spectre II preorders. Did I?


Nope.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> Nope.


Because you know I've been asking you for a blue dial Spectre for years now Doc. In fact, just invoice me already for one.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Still laughing at the "when your junk arrives" email. Chris, did the fuzzies drop yet, or are you still squeaking soprano?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Still laughing at the "when your junk arrives" email. Chris, did the fuzzies drop yet, or are you still squeaking soprano?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You know how there are times I know exactly what you're saying, and other times I have no idea?

This ain't the former.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You know how there are times I know exactly what you're saying, and other times I have no idea?
> 
> This ain't the former.


Junk aka testicles aka fuzzies. You may need to demagnetize your brain.

Also your video of the turquoise has me salivating. Ugh i need to decide date or no date and rubber or no rubber. Color match looks great on that rubber

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

CDawson said:


> Platinum?


Hmm.. possibly even the bottom of a soda can?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Wait, do we go on three? Or after we say three?

That blue!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Dull aluminum foil is calling me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Still laughing at the "when your junk arrives" email. Chris, did the fuzzies drop yet, or are you still squeaking soprano?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The story hasn't gotten less entertaining.

After getting the "when your junk arrives" message, I sent a polite (I swear to God, it was polite) response, again expressing that I didn't understand the animosity, but I'd welcome an explanation, and in any case, just let me know when the package arrives, and we'll start the return process.

He never responded, until he wrote to tell me that the package did arrive. I asked him to return it here, to me, and renewed my request for him to explain the animosity (no response on that).

Why have him return it here, rather than back to the UK?

Well, mostly because I like to inspect the condition of returns for refund, especially when I've got reason to believe something screwy may be going on, but also, in the event he didn't do anything $h1tty, the fastest way to get the refund he wants is for me to get the goods back here, to me, rather than have them sent to my warehouse, where I'll have to make arrangements for someone to check the condition there.

So what's he do?

If you guessed, "ignored what you told him, and sent it back to the UK", you've been paying attention.

So he emails me back - no explanation for why he's being the way he's being - just to tell me he sent it back to the UK.

I wrote him back, letting him know that would delay his refund considerably, and said I hope the package isn't lost, or at the very least, he insured it, so he's not out the money he spent.

But...if you guessed I'm praying to dear sweet baby *****, laying there in his crib, all holy and innocent, that this package gets lost, then you're not only paying attention, you know me pretty well.

My best guess is this has nothing to do with the fact that I shipped his order from the UK, and the guy is probably some troll with a mad-on for me, for any number of reasons, some of them probably good, and this was his plan all along. The UK thing was just a pretense.

But again - this is costing him money. He had to pay to ship it back to the warehouse. And his refund, assuming the package isn't lost, will be net of the $30 shipping we paid in the first place. Plus, he spent whatever time he spent schlepping to the Canadian post office, which I hope is a long way away from wherever he lives.

Trolling me is costing him $50, at least, maybe more, depending on what the postage cost him, and whether or not he got a customs bill (please, dear sweet baby *****, let him get a customs bill).

If the package gets lost, and he didn't insure it, then he's just out the money, which will suck for him, and be awesome for me.

If it is insured, and getting Canadian post to pay a claim on an international purchase is even half as frustrating as getting USPS to pay a claim on an international package, he's in for 3 months of waiting, peppered with hours waiting on hold just to be told he called the wrong department, his form was never received, they're waiting on a response from Royal Mail, etc. (My wait with USPS was 6 months).

Meanwhile, eff it. If the watch shows up, I'll have it set aside to be inspected, or I'll get it back here eventually, and I'll either put it back into inventory, into my own collection, give it away, or use it as a parts donor. This really doesn't cost me anything but the time spent responding to his emails.


----------



## KJRye (Jul 28, 2014)

Any chance of a quick shot of the Orange dial on a bracelet?

Actually, that video was better than any pictures are...would love to see the other dial colours in a similar way! If not all, at least the orange.

Did I mention I'm interested in the orange? Well...in case you missed it, its the orange one.

Orange.



Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

KJRye said:


> Any chance of a quick shot of the Orange dial on a bracelet?
> 
> Actually, that video was better than any pictures are...would love to see the other dial colours in a similar way! If not all, at least the orange.
> 
> ...


I agree ...a group shot on bracelet would be nice...I still don't know which one I like the best...

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> The story hasn't gotten less entertaining.
> 
> After getting the "when your junk arrives" message, I sent a polite (I swear to God, it was polite) response, again expressing that I didn't understand the animosity, but I'd welcome an explanation, and in any case, just let me know when the package arrives, and we'll start the return process.
> 
> ...


Not to be a stick in the mud, but is there any chance he "shipped" this "back" to you with a customs declaration of like $5k hoping you get stuck with a big import duty? Just kinda thinking of what I'd do if I wanted to troll someone...

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Not to be a stick in the mud, but is there any chance he "shipped" this "back" to you with a customs declaration of like $5k hoping you get stuck with a big import duty? Just kinda thinking of what I'd do if I wanted to troll someone...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


That's what refusing delivery is for.


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> But again - this is costing him money. He had to pay to ship it back to the warehouse. And his refund, assuming the package isn't lost, will be net of the $30 shipping we paid in the first place. Plus, he spent whatever time he spent schlepping to the Canadian post office, which I hope is a long way away from wherever he lives.
> 
> Trolling me is costing him $50, at least, maybe more, depending on what the postage cost him, and whether or not he got a customs bill (please, dear sweet baby *****, let him get a customs bill).


Is a premium troll a thing? If not you may have created one


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Trower44 said:


> What if your into both? I shoot fairly strait with some fire in my belly
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


That's what VR lenses are for. Booze compensation.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> The story hasn't gotten less entertaining.
> 
> But...if you guessed I'm praying to dear sweet baby *****, laying there in his crib, all holy and innocent, that this package gets lost, then you're not only paying attention, you know me pretty well.


No it hasn't. I hope it goes back on HMS Christopher Ward, which takes 72 days to make it across the pond, usually with several crew lost at sea. Then you can go "ooo sorry, past the 30 days. Too bad, so sad."


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The story hasn't gotten less entertaining.
> 
> After getting the "when your junk arrives" message, I sent a polite (I swear to God, it was polite) response, again expressing that I didn't understand the animosity, but I'd welcome an explanation, and in any case, just let me know when the package arrives, and we'll start the return process.
> 
> ...


Another theory:
Its just a case of buyers remorse. Spent money he couldn't spend and his wife kicked his ass for it and is now pressuring him to get that money back. 
Affraid to admit his mistake to you, he makes up some excuse (like shipping from UK being a deal breaker) and communicates it excessively outrageous, hoping that that might make his case more convincing - which of course it doesn't. When you tell him he has to pay for return shipping himself, the doom of his wife's rage is looming, and of course his despair is being channeled in anger towards you.

Of course you could replace "wife" in this story with "landlord", "tax collector", "mother", "grand dad" etc. Basically anyone he might owe money to...

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Going with my Cerberus for our wedding anniversary. I will be taking the wife out for a meal at a rather nice Turkish restaurant locally.

The Devil Ray looks great Chris, it's just not my particular vice!! Good luck on pre-orders everyone!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

docvail said:


> The story hasn't gotten less entertaining.


Yugley entertaining !!! :-!

(Umm, sorry. :-d)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Trower44 said:


> What if your into both? I shoot fairly strait with some fire in my belly
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


No, NO, NOOOO!!!

Two groups.

Photogs on the right, drunks on the le...wait a sec...

Goddammitall...

Capucho.

We'll never get him to go along with this. He'll insist on holding onto both his camera and his bottle.

Sigh...

Fine. Three groups. Drunks, photogs, and drunk photogs.

I'm sure this won't be a problem.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

As a friend used to say: "I feel sorry for them that don't drink. They know, when they get up in the morning that they aren't going to feel better all day."


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> No, NO, NOOOO!!!
> 
> Two groups.
> 
> ...


If you drew that out as a venn diagram you'd find me in the middle bit wot overlaps.

Ric


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

My favourite Winston Churchill quote:

Shocked lady at a formal event: "You Sir are drunk!"

Winnie: "Indeed I am, Madam. And you are ugly. But I shall be sober in the morning..."

Ric


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> If you drew that out as a venn diagram you'd find me in the middle bit wot overlaps.
> 
> *Hic*


Fixed that for you.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> My favourite Winston Churchill quote:
> 
> Shocked lady at a formal event: "You Sir are drunk!"
> 
> ...


I've frequently used a modified version in my own travels.

Smug a-hole: "You're fat!"

Me: "You're an a-hole. I can lose weight. You'll always be an a-hole."

It's funny, because almost every time I said it, I had no intention of dieting. No intention whatsoever.

Being fat is almost an advantage, considering how often it's led to people underestimating me.

No one ever seems to realize body fat is just stored energy. I'm like the Juggernaut once I get going. You ever tried to stop a fat guy once he gets some momentum?

I wouldn't recommend trying.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Mine is this set-to with Lady Astor, with whom he had an ongoing feud.

She reportedly said "If you were my husband, I would give you poison."

Sir Winston replied "Madam, if I were your husband, I would take it."



Ric Capucho said:


> My favourite Winston Churchill quote:
> 
> Shocked lady at a formal event: "You Sir are drunk!"
> 
> ...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

...Can't afford to get fat, or drink, got a nice selection of watches tho'.........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## KJRye (Jul 28, 2014)

Orange, no-date, ordered!

Edit: This post constituted my 1000th post on WUS. Quite fitting!


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Bluquoise with date ordered.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

SteamJ said:


> Bluquoise with date ordered.


Me too!


----------



## Sillygoose (Mar 5, 2017)

Woohoo! Got my pre-order in! Is it May yet?

- Tappy Talkied


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

With only 500 watches total, I wonder when these are going to sell out. Today?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> If you drew that out as a venn diagram you'd find me in the middle bit wot overlaps.
> 
> Ric


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

It looks like the turquoise is off to an early lead since it's the only one to hit the next tier after 25 are sold.


----------



## KJRye (Jul 28, 2014)

Edit: What he said ^


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

kendalw3 said:


> Me too!


And another here

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Was going to show restraint and order one BUT, I caved and in for 2 at what appears to be right before the first tier cut off. :-!
Tempted by a third :-x
Angered by the wait o|o|o|


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Bluquoise date here...Some how missed the 1st tier pricing because I have problems and forgot to use a damn code!!!! 

I love Justin Timberlake too!!!! Baaah oh well...


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Bluquoise date here...Some how missed the 1st tier pricing because I have problems and forgot to use a damn code!!!!
> 
> I love Justin Timberlake too!!!! Baaah oh well...


I realized that I forgot to use a discount code.... but then made the wise decision not to go back and add it in.... stayed in the First Tier. I can use a code another time... probably not during a pre-order when it is about speed and efficiency!!!


----------



## CantFightJose (Dec 29, 2016)

You guys are making me jealous!!!


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Damn you!!! I had troubles with the security code so I think it refreshed on me?!? I blame it on me being in Canada and ya'll are stealing our Bacon and cheese!!!!! As well I am at work and Big Brother is always watching lol. Oh well what can ya do. As long as I get 1 I will be happy.

Thanks btw for wasting your special 666 post on me...



kendalw3 said:


> I realized that I forgot to use a discount code.... but then made the wise decision not to go back and add it in.... stayed in the First Tier. I can use a code another time... probably not during a pre-order when it is about speed and efficiency!!!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Was sold on the black and on the fence on the blue. That hairy mitten modeling the blue on bracelet is what sold me. |>


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

i can't even get into the website!


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

HAHAH!! LMAO at work. Roofers do not understand watch talk and to have me laughing at that is even more weird.

I did dream of having that hairy Mitt holding my hand and presenting me with a bluquoise thou....damn sexah Mitt!!



mplsabdullah said:


> That hairy mitten modeling the blue on bracelet is what sold me. |>


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Damn you!!! I had troubles with the security code so I think it refreshed on me?!? I blame it on me being in Canada and ya'll are stealing our Bacon and cheese!!!!! As well I am at work and Big Brother is always watching lol. Oh well what can ya do. As long as I get 1 I will be happy.
> 
> Thanks btw for wasting your special 666 post on me...


Don't forget the Maple Syrup!

Also at work... snuck it in anyway 

DOH!!! I didn't even realize i was near 666!!! I need to start preparing for something special when I hit 1000 posts!


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Ya I am slowly creeping up on the 1k post mark as well. I might just give away 1 of the beaters I bought in my first few months here. I can not bring myself to try to sell anything but I might be able to give 1 away. Not that I have anything of great value but they did meant something to me for a month or 2 lol.



kendalw3 said:


> Don't forget the Maple Syrup!
> 
> Also at work... snuck it in anyway
> 
> DOH!!! I didn't even realize i was near 666!!! I need to start preparing for something special when I hit 1000 posts!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jamesezra said:


> i can't even get into the website!


The site's definitely working. Try a different browser, different device, clearing cookies/cache, refreshing, etc.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

GOOD LUCK DOC!!!! Hope it all goes well with very little to no hitches on this launch!

I hate to look forward to the future now I have to wait til May!!!


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> The site's definitely working. Try a different browser, different device, clearing cookies/cache, refreshing, etc.


got in  and saw turquoise in the second tier  but there's a coupon in hand 

I love this emotional rollercoaster.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jamesezra said:


> got in  and saw turquoise in the second tier  but there's a coupon in hand
> 
> I love this emotional rollercoaster.


I do not love the emotional rollercoaster.

My stomach was in knots for ten minutes before starting. I'm always stressed to the max in those moments leading up to a pre-order starting. What did I forget to do? How is this going to go? Will my site crash? What if I have to pee?


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> I do not love the emotional rollercoaster.
> 
> My stomach was in knots for ten minutes before starting. I'm always stressed to the max in those moments leading up to a pre-order starting. What did I forget to do? How is this going to go? Will my site crash. What if I have to pee?


Lol... i kinda have a more mute feeling as compared to the Obris Morgan Infinity Pre-order. Probably because I know there's more inventory from you.


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

I posted in the Devil Ray thread but I'll repeat here as a service to those who may be having the same issue. 

I tried 2 browsers (chrome and explorer), two different credit cards, and paypal and it would not take my order from the desktop. I have no idea what the issue was but I tried to place the order 8-10 times. Logged out and back in, emptied the cart, and anything else I could think of. Anyway I finally got it to work from chrome on my mobile device. Same internet connection as the desktop so maybe it was the mobile version of the website that solved the problem.

All's well that ends well but I missed my shot to get in on the $450 price. Turquoise date with matching strap on order can't wait.


----------



## KJRye (Jul 28, 2014)

Bleedingblue said:


> I posted in the Devil Ray thread but I'll repeat here as a service to those who may be having the same issue.
> 
> I tried 2 browsers (chrome and explorer), two different credit cards, and paypal and it would not take my order from the desktop. I have no idea what the issue was but I tried to place the order 8-10 times. Logged out and back in, emptied the cart, and anything else I could think of. Anyway I finally got it to work from chrome on my mobile device. Same internet connection as the desktop so maybe it was the mobile version of the website that solved the problem.
> 
> All's well that ends well but I missed my shot to get in on the $450 price. Turquoise date with matching strap on order can't wait.


Always curious to see the different experiences people have, I'm sorry to hear you had issues.

I ordered through Chrome browser, used PayPal to check out, and everything was completely smooth and gave me no issues. All within the first minute or so of availability.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bleedingblue said:


> I posted in the Devil Ray thread but I'll repeat here as a service to those who may be having the same issue.
> 
> I tried 2 browsers (chrome and explorer), two different credit cards, and paypal and it would not take my order from the desktop. I have no idea what the issue was but I tried to place the order 8-10 times. Logged out and back in, emptied the cart, and anything else I could think of. Anyway I finally got it to work from chrome on my mobile device. Same internet connection as the desktop so maybe it was the mobile version of the website that solved the problem.
> 
> All's well that ends well but I missed my shot to get in on the $450 price. Turquoise date with matching strap on order can't wait.


Based on your location, I'm going to guess you're Andrew.

I looked at the rejected transactions record, and didn't see any from you, which only means we can rule out anything related to address verification with your card.

With that ruled out, my best guess is you added the watch to your cart when the price was $450, but by the time you got to checkout, all the watches available at that price were already purchased, and so it was "sold out" by then.

Don't know if you read the FAQ's and best practices, but I try to address this in advance - it's going to happen, to someone, inevitably, whenever there are more people trying to buy a thing than there are units of that thing available.

When that happens, you have to remove the item from your cart, go back to the product page, re-add it, and then go back to checkout. Again, I did lay all this out in those blog posts, but I expect that either people don't read it, missed it, or forget it in the heat of the moment.

If that's not what happened, then my only other guess is that it was something on your end - browser/device issues, cookies/cache, pop-up blockers, etc. The site's definitely working, and people are getting through checkout, but it's not uncommon for me to hear someone had trouble trying to get through checkout on their iPhone, or whatever (which is why I put in those tips - best bet is to use a pc, not a mobile device, particularly not an apple iOS mobile device, during pre-order).

Sorry you had trouble, glad you got through, thanks for being persistent.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I was going to order a black leather strap for my Spectre with the bluquoise but I changed that idea because I thought it might mess up the delivery charge and then Doc would pull his hair out wondering WTF I am doing so I got rid of it.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So I ordered a black one with date window. After wrestling with the colors I figured I'd let a little color go a long way against the black dial. And it was still at $450. Cheers!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Pulled off I-95 at 11:50 to snag one. Thought I'd make it home in time but ended up stuck in (never ending) construction traffic. Everything went smooth as butter except the traffic, obviously.

Looks like that was a good call as the turquoise up to 500 already when the rest are still 450.


----------



## footie (Nov 12, 2013)

Got my turquoise! I look forward to receiving it and posting pics of my wife wearing it. Ha.


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

Got home an hour before pre-orders started and was planning to be on it from the start, however, I had to paint the shed. 

Half way through painting I remembered, ran in and managed to snag a second tier Bluquoise (barely avoiding getting wood stain all over the carpet - although I think I might have stained the table a little)

The small issue being - I had to explain to my wife the urgency of my ordering. She now knows I've ordered another watch. Good job she loves me.


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

docvail said:


> Based on your location, I'm going to guess you're Andrew.
> 
> I looked at the rejected transactions record, and didn't see any from you, which only means we can rule out anything related to address verification with your card.
> 
> ...


That is me. I read the FAQ, the tips page, and logged in and verified my info. I was ready to blast the order out in 30 seconds. If I recall correctly I tried to check out the first time and it said unable to process payment (all this was on a PC) The second time it made me update the cart with the new price because the first 25 were gone. After that I just kept trying different ways to check out and every time it would say unable to process payment at this time. It was very odd cause this is the same computer that I ordered my sub on and I buy stuff online fairly frequently. When I gave up and switched to the phone it processed first time. Honestly, with my luck lately it was probably some impossible series of events that a team of NSA experts couldn't unravel.

In in the grand scheme $25 isn't much money and it isn't like I got ripped off on the price anyway. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Blue for me

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm very surprised to see that Orange and Black have the least amount of traffic (at least based on current prices). I figured Orange and Blue would have been neck and neck for the lead and normally I would have guessed black to be a close 3rd, but there was a lot of interest in "whilver"... so I guess I would have put that in 3rd place, but not by much.

As doc has stated before... this is probably something nearly impossible to guess at.

I was on the fence between orange and blue. I ended up with the blue, and I'm happy about that. I'm sure I would be equally happy with orange... or black for that matter. Oddly enough (or not, who knows), the white one was the only one that didn't really call to me that much. I'm glad we all have different tastes! 

I hope these are a big success for you Doc! I'm super excited... now let the waiting begin!!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bleedingblue said:


> ...In in the grand scheme $25 isn't much money and it isn't like I got ripped off on the price anyway...


I'm tempted to make this the only text on the contact page of the website.


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

I definitely agree on the $25 being irrelevant (in watches).

The DevilRay will be my 8th Janis (first NTH) and all mine really are worth their price (by that I mean full retail, so pre-order is a bonus).

I was more concerned about missing out on getting the colour of my choice. 


For anybody on the fence about spending c$500 on a watch for the first time (I was) - understand these watches are a step up from your more regular brands at the same price or under.

That's all.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This isn't a rant, and certainly not directed at most of you here (not at you, Bleedingblue, not at you, other guy who mistakenly thinks it's about you, etc, but maybe at you, guy who must certainly realize this is exactly you), but it's something that comes up every time we do a pre-order, so I might as well address it now, since it's in context.

My main source for generic watch parts and tools has a $20 minimum order size. It's a pain in my a$$ when all I need is some $3 spring bars or a $10 tool, but I get why they do it. For them, it's not "worth it" to have someone put together an order and ship it to me if it's not at least $20. So I don't squawk about it, I just make sure I find $20 worth of stuff to buy before I place my order.

My local watchmaker will charge something like $30 or $50 just to open a case and look inside, regardless of what's wrong, and even if there's nothing wrong. I'm sure some people who walk into his shop balk at that, especially when he's done in a few minutes, or they think whatever he does is just some small thing, but I get it.

For him, it's not "worth it" to even sit down at his bench and spend five or ten minutes dealing with the customer and the customer's watch if he can't charge at least $30 or $50 for his time.

I realized this year how much time I've lost dealing with stupid $hlt, and how much money it costs me. In no particular order, and this is not an exhaustive list, this is the stuff I deal with on a daily basis:

- Major theft of inventory from my warehouse.
- Website crashes.
- Various tech issues.
- The factory insisting on changing the designs my team spent months working on, in spite of my vehement instructions not to do that.
- Shipping delays.
- Coordinating the logistics of returns.
- Chasing commercial accounts down to pay me.
- Chasing other people down to pay me.
- Asking for the same damned thing, over and over again, because people can't be bothered to do their jobs.
- Responding to emails of all sorts, many of them fairly pointless.

The list goes on and on. A lot of it is just putting out fires other people started, which makes me want to put them out, meaning the people, put them out with a bag of hammers, all the way out, permanently.

I'm literally - not figuratively - months behind on everything, because of all the time I spend doing stupid $hlt I shouldn't have to do, but end up doing because that's what's involved in owning a business and dealing with the typical nincompoops who apparently work for every other business that isn't mine, meaning I can't fire them, which I'd totally do, if they were my employees.

The bottom line is, my new, personal, "minimum order size" policy when it comes to editing orders and issuing refunds is $50.

In case you missed the FAQ's and tips for pre-orders, the ones I always strongly suggest people read before pre-orders start, here's some of what you missed:









I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I've literally spent hours going back and forth with some guys during and after pre-orders, guys who somehow thought I wouldn't mind spending a lot of my time re-explaining all the nuances of "orders over $800 ship free, orders over $1,000 get 5% off automatically, coupon codes can't be combined", all in an effort to help help them figure out how to get me to send them back $25 on a pre-order which already saved them $250 on a watch easily worth 50% more than what I plan to charge when it's full price.

It's mind-numbing, and I'm so over it. That's why I put that $50 fee policy in place - so I can charge those guys $50 when I feel like my time is being wasted. If someone can't respect my time more than that, boom, $50 fee to edit the order. It's basically an a-hole tax.

If you missed using a $25 coupon code at checkout, because you were in such a rush to get a watch before the price goes up by $25....I mean, c'mon, do the math.

If you took 30 seconds longer to find that box and punch in that code, but the price went up by $25 in that time, you're in no worse position than you'd be in if you just checked out without it and got the lower price.

It's all upside - take the 30 seconds, slow down, use the code, or just pay $25 more. There's literally no difference in the outcome if the only downside is the price going up $25 in that 30 seconds.

I can't kill a lot of time editing orders and issuing $25 refunds because people couldn't spend another 30 seconds at checkout. The page isn't that complicated. In fact, it's been tremendously simplified.

















If the code you missed using, or whatever change it is that you're thinking of asking me to make to your pre-order isn't going to result in at least a $50 difference, I'm not doing it.

Like Bleedingblue said so well, it's $25, and given the pre-order pricing, compared to what you're getting, it's not like you got ripped off.

The coupon codes don't expire. Use it next time.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> This isn't a rant, and certainly not directed at most of you here (not at you, Bleedingblue, not at you, other guy who mistakenly thinks it's about you, etc, but maybe at you, guy who must certainly realize this is exactly you), but it's something that comes up every time we do a pre-order, so I might as well address it now, since it's in context.
> 
> My main source for generic watch parts and tools has a $20 minimum order size. It's a pain in my a$$ when all I need is some $3 spring bars or a $10 tool, but I get why they do it. For them, it's not "worth it" to have someone put together an order and ship it to me if it's not at least $20. So I don't squawk about it, I just make sure I find $20 worth of stuff to buy before I place my order.
> 
> ...


I was worried about missing the preorder so I didn't use my coupon, BUT with the Blue Spectre coming up I'll just use it then. Or on your next watch. It will work out.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Ordered the Date Whilver (no, that's not a request for you to wine and dine the whiskered lady down the street...), and added the Red rubber strap to it.

The $5 discount on adding an extra rubber strap didn't take on the already discounted Red (Green or Purple), but that means less to me (5x less!) than the Grand Scheme $25.

Happy to be a part of the Whilver expansion!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> I was worried about missing the preorder so I didn't use my coupon, BUT with the Blue Spectre coming up I'll just use it then. Or on your next watch. It will work out.


Not if you email me to ask me to edit the order and refund you $25, it won't.

That's the point of the new policy.

I want to get out of the $25 refund business, because that business sux.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

That is me. My first $500 cad watch is scaring the HELL out of me. I was in the same boat as BleedingBlue. For some reason I could not enter my 3 digit security code and I also had a black leather strap in the cart for my Spectre. I did not even think about the 2nd tier pricing and that makes more sense in why it all reset. Like I said, this is my first BIG buy for myself and I at 1 time would never even by myself a CD.

EFF $25 I will use it on something else. I am sure Doc mentioned another Sub in the works after the Spectre II (am I dreaming?)

Thanks Doc for the liberation and sense of freedom you gave me when I sent you some money!!

You have a lot of happy peeps here.



watchuck said:


> I definitely agree on the $25 being irrelevant (in watches).
> 
> The DevilRay will be my 8th Janis (first NTH) and all mine really are worth their price (by that I mean full retail, so pre-order is a bonus).
> 
> ...


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

docvail said:


> I want to get out of the $25 refund business, because that business sux.


And you can use that $25.00 to buy a bottle of whiskey....to help you deal with the people who want that $25.00. It's the circle of strife.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

Double post


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

Ojibway Bob said:


> EFF $25 I will use it on something else. I am sure Doc mentioned another Sub in the works after the Spectre II (am I dreaming?)
> 
> You have a lot of happy peeps here.


Haha ya he said maybe a while back, so that means it's guaranteed, set in stone right?!!?

Indeed we are

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> Keeper of Time said:
> 
> 
> > I was worried about missing the preorder so I didn't use my coupon, BUT with the Blue Spectre coming up I'll just use it then. Or on your next watch. It will work out.
> ...


No what I'm saying is that I intend to buy more watches from you in the future so I will use the coupon at some point. But also my order already got a discount and I don't need to compromise our friendship nickel and diming you to death.

No


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Hey doc can I just come to your house and pick up my watch and have my $15 shipping refunded? That shouldn't require you to do anything difficult nor involve any awkward conversations with your kids/wife. Also I'm assuming that mean I can get it by January. KTHX

/s

Orange seems to be the last at tier1 pricing. I'm quite surprised.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Well seems I'm lucky. Got the bluquoise no-date I've wanted f from the beginning, used my coupon without problems, paid nice and easy, all was done and dusted about 40s after the pre-order had started.
And to celebrate that... I decided to wear my vintage blue Amphion for the next few days!










Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Doc did say on FB that he loves to have people over at his house and fill them with food and drink...He will even pitch a tent for ya..HAHAH at 46 yrs old and even to type "Pitch a tent" makes me laugh.



ryan92084 said:


> Hey doc can I just come to your house and pick up my watch and have my $15 shipping refunded? That shouldn't require you to do anything difficult nor involve any awkward conversations with your kids/wife. Also I'm assuming that mean I can get it by January. KTHX
> 
> /s
> 
> Orange seems to be the last at tier1 pricing. I'm quite surprised.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

SteamJ said:


> It looks like the turquoise is off to an early lead since it's the only one to hit the next tier after 25 are sold.


It's almost as if light blue dial watches are awesome. It's almost as if, say, a light blue sunburst Sub were offered, that it would be pretty much guaranteed to sell like gangbusters. It's almost like that. Note: this is not an idea.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> No what I'm saying is that I intend to buy more watches from you in the future so I will use the coupon at some point. But also my order already got a discount and I don't need to compromise our friendship nickel and diming you to death.
> 
> No


You had me at "death".


----------



## pop4 (Jul 10, 2015)

Sorry Doc, I just couldn't help myself...










*drunkenly staggers away and hides, NTH on the wrist, bottle of whiskey in one hand and camera in the other*


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

docvail said:


> If you missed using a $25 coupon code at checkout, because you were in such a rush to get a watch before the price goes up by $25....I mean, c'mon, do the math.
> ...
> It's all upside - take the 30 seconds, slow down, use the code, or just pay $25 more. There's literally no difference in the outcome if the only downside is the price going up $25 in that 30 seconds.


Yep... I took my time, but I had no choice bu to use my iPad... Despite your big warnings in advance that there might be some problems with your store and iOS. Sadly there just is no way to use a coupon code on your store using an iOS device -- the place to enter the coupon just does not show up (and a few other things don't show up too, like "send you a message from the website"). But, yep... that's life... and only the cost of a lunch out.


> The coupon codes don't expire. Use it next time.


Yeah... but... Since you can't put your points back into your account after finding out that there was physically no way to use that coupon code; and since you can't combine coupon codes; and since that $500 watch would pretty much give you a combined $50 coupon for next time, it sure would be nice (for me, the consumer... definitely not you the businessman!) to have that $50 coupon next time instead of two separate non-combinable $25 coupons.

I agree that these coupons just might be too much of a hassle for you, and maybe you should stop offering them. And I sure don't want to be "on your nasty list"... just noting how it isn't all trying too fast etc..

Although... getting your provider to fix the store to work with iOS would be kinda nice...


----------



## fearlessleader (Oct 29, 2013)

pop4 said:


> Sorry Doc, I just couldn't help myself...
> *drunkenly staggers away and hides, NTH on the wrist, bottle of whiskey in one hand and camera in the other*


btw... I usually prefer only single malts... But that Monkey Shoulder is amazingly nice, especially for the price!


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

pop4 said:


> Sorry Doc, I just couldn't help myself...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Best post in a while. Why are people so obsessed with 25$ regarding luxury items?! I mean, if you're living off 25$ a week, it's a fortune. If you're spending 400$ for a watch...well...

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

fearlessleader said:


> Yep... I took my time, but I had no choice bu to use my iPad... Despite your big warnings in advance that there might be some problems with your store and iOS. Sadly there just is no way to use a coupon code on your store using an iOS device -- the place to enter the coupon just does not show up (and a few other things don't show up too, like "send you a message from the website"). But, yep... that's life... and only the cost of a lunch out.
> 
> Yeah... but... Since you can't put your points back into your account after finding out that there was physically no way to use that coupon code; and since you can't combine coupon codes; and since that $500 watch would pretty much give you a combined $50 coupon for next time, it sure would be nice (for me, the consumer... definitely not you the businessman!) to have that $50 coupon next time instead of two separate non-combinable $25 coupons.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you mentioned this. I was ordering from my iPhone and could not find a place to enter the code. I looked all over and even left the checkout and started over. I thought I was blind or dumb. (Not denying that I could be one or the other. )

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

hawkeye86 said:


> I'm glad you mentioned this. I was ordering from my iPhone and could not find a place to enter the code. I looked all over and even left the checkout and started over. I thought I was blind or dumb. (Not denying that I could be one or the other. )
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You have to click on this hovering order summary to open up the full one. That allows you add a promo code. It isn't super obvious but doc did add screenshots a few pages ago.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

pop4 said:


> Sorry Doc, I just couldn't help myself...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Love Monkey Shoulder! So smooooooth....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I for one hear and feel your pain Doc. I build watches on a scale of 1 to 2 customs in a month or so, unlike the up and coming established micro brands who I'm not competing with, I do it as a hobby only, and to have to push up a parts list to 18-20 bucks every time I need an ETA part 450 for a couple bucks from OFried is as annoying even at my lower scale. But I get why it's necessary. I also understand the price point of a dive watch at a pre- order of $450 or even $475 over the full price of $700! I can't build a dive watch with a top grade movement and still make a little profit for less than $500. So I appreciate and support the micro brands for the value you can get in these type of offerings. And I applaud the selection of the new movement STP 1-11, as Borealis and Prometheus and Zodiac have also done rather than another Miyota. My research in this has found the quality of this ETA clone to be a large notch over Sellita and Saegull, the other clones falling in line under these. I don't hardly even look at a watch if it has a Miyota. And I can't be bothered with the Citizen or Seiko stuff either, but that's me. 

So I for one will raise a shot glass of Monkey Shoulder to toast your new release and wish you success.

Nuff said. Snakeeyes out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Perspective: that thing we need before complaining publicly about missing out on $25 coupon when buying $500 watch on ANY FREAKING KIND OF IOS DEVICE. 

@fearlessleader needs to be thanked, christopher, because im sending you $25 for past sins. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Very nice!!! I have been dying to try the Monkey Shoulder and Japanese Whisky is very nice as well...I am a little upset there is no Canadian there thou...Gretzky red cask is very buttery and smooth. 
Over on the BSHT thread I seen a pic of Plum brandy so I had to buy a bottle, and now?!? Monkey Shoulder will be mine...

So far these boards have made me refine my Drinking, Cigars, Camera dslr selection (I just picked up an older body for my Son), and there is something else these boards have made me jump in with 2 feet about....Hmmm What time is it?

I NEED A WATCH!!!!



pop4 said:


> Sorry Doc, I just couldn't help myself...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fearlessleader said:


> Yep... I took my time, but I had no choice bu to use my iPad... Despite your big warnings in advance that there might be some problems with your store and iOS. Sadly there just is no way to use a coupon code on your store using an iOS device -- the place to enter the coupon just does not show up (and a few other things don't show up too, like "send you a message from the website"). But, yep... that's life... and only the cost of a lunch out.
> 
> I agree that these coupons just might be too much of a hassle for you, and maybe you should stop offering them. And I sure don't want to be "on your nasty list"... just noting how it isn't all trying too fast etc..
> 
> Although... getting your provider to fix the store to work with iOS would be kinda nice...


1. My site works with iOS, and there in fact IS a way to use a coupon code on my store using an iOS device, so there's not a goddam thing to fix.

Here's a screen shot from my son's iPhone:









What's that big empty box there? Yep, dat be da coupon code box.

I never said my site didn't work with iOS. It's always worked with iOS. What I've said is that some people have reported difficulties using my site with iOS devices. There's a difference. There is no "big problem" with my store and iOS. As far as I can tell, the "problem" isn't with my site, it's with some iOS users.

Since I don't use iOS devices myself, and I'm just a one-man show, I've made a decision that if and when someone falls into the category of "uses iOS/can't figure out a website", I'm not going to stop everything I'm doing, chase down another iOS device user, borrow their device, then step-by-step walk someone through how to get through checkout.

Instead, I'm going to either A) let people wear big-boy pants and figure $hlt out, because that's the adult thing to do, or B) recommend they use a different device, and pray the change in device solves the issue.



fearlessleader said:


> Yeah... but... Since you can't put your points back into your account after finding out that there was physically no way to use that coupon code; and since you can't combine coupon codes; and since that $500 watch would pretty much give you a combined $50 coupon for next time, it sure would be nice (for me, the consumer... definitely not you the businessman!) to have that $50 coupon next time instead of two separate non-combinable $25 coupons.
> 
> I agree that these coupons just might be too much of a hassle for you, and maybe you should stop offering them. And I sure don't want to be "on your nasty list"... just noting how it isn't all trying too fast etc..


2. No, the rewards program isn't set up for people who somehow find a reason NOT to use a coupon code, then want to cancel it, and put the points back into their account, so they can get an even bigger code next time. And guess what? Since we're still only talking about a $25 difference here, I'm not spending the time it would take to do all that for you.

Look, Glenn, I've tried to make this work, but it's clearly not working, this thing. It's not you, it's me. You can't seem to be my customer, and take part in pre-orders, without having some problem, which leads you to lecturing me about how my business and my website should work.

You were shocked to learn I had to be awake to add inventory to my website. You were angry that my site didn't automatically increase the price of the watch in your cart, rather than forcing you to remove it from your cart and re-add it when the price goes up.

The list of your frustrations with me and my business seems never-ending, and no amount of me trying to explain how it actually works seems to prevent this from happening. Most of the stuff I spend my time writing and posting about pre-orders is being driven by you and one or two other guys who seem to have an uncanny ability to not be able to use a website that hundreds of others use without issue.

So, maybe, instead of you telling me how to run my business, I should just cancel your pre-order, refund your money, delete your customer account, and wish you the best in your future dealings with other companies.

Say the word, Glenn. I'll make it happen immediately. For that, I will stop everything.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Forget the Soaps on TV! This has it all! Suspense, drama, intrigue, pictures of watches and Monkey Shoulder! What's not to love? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## synaptyx (Nov 25, 2013)

I just placed an order on my iPhone /shrug


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

synaptyx said:


> I just placed an order on my iPhone /shrug


Right?

I'm a microsoft and android user. I NEVER use iOS anything, at all.

And yet, when I grabbed my son's iPhone, it took zero seconds for me to figure it out.

You know what I can't figure out? Why an experienced iOS user wouldn't be able to.

My site is hosted by one of the largest ecommerce website providers on the planet, a multinational, multi-million dollar business with really smart people working there. It's optimized for all devices, including mobile, and including iOS.

We implemented a simplified, one-page checkout earlier this year. We also consolidated payments processing to a single primary processor for both credit cards and PayPal, to make that simpler, and added Apple Pay and Amazon Pay, to give people as many ways to pay as possible.

I spend hours doing user-testing on my site, and hours more banging out FAQ's and best practices for pre-order, plus I send out email blasts to everyone, in which I practically beg people to read those FAQ's and pre-order tips.

At a certain point, I have to cut my losses. I've tried to make the system as fool-proof as possible, and it seems to work fine for 99% of users. I almost think someone who needs me to hold their hand in order to get through it really just wants to hold my hand...eewww.

I tried to make it clear - I'm out of the $25 refund business, which most people would reasonably extrapolate to mean I'm out of the entire "wasting time doing stupid stuff over $25" business, which would include dealing with canceling unused coupon codes and re-adding those points, but in case it wasn't clear enough, here it is -

I'M OUT OF THE WASTING TIME DOING STUPID STUFF FOR $25 BUSINESS.

If that doesn't sit well with you, or it makes me seem cavalier about $25, okay, I understand, no hard feelings. It's not you, it's me. I'm okay if you want to move on to some other guy, who wants to be in that business.

Say the word, and I'll cancel your order and refund you, or we can just go our separate ways after this one. Consider it that one last fling before the final breakup.

But do NOT seek to lecture me on what a jerk I am when I finally make the decision to stop dealing with the 1% who don't get it. I should have adopted this stance years ago.

My system works. My business runs pretty well, all things considering, and I've got work to do - work which I'll never get done if I have to deal with a few people's nonsense over and over again.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Doc, I'm about 99.9% sure I know the answer to this, but because I couldn't quite tell for sure from the pictures....

Are the new bluerquiose watch straps the same as all the other vanilla scented awesomeness as the others on your site? Also, has one of these been placed on a Devil Ray proto and photographed yet? Sure looks great in the pic directly next to the watch! I'm impressed at how well the colors match! I'm still trying to decide if I want to order one of these straps. I got the orange one for my Blue/Orange Orthos, and I like it, quality is good, smells good, feels good, looks good... but I always seem to go back to the bracelet. I guess I'm just more of a bracelet guy... but having options is always a good thing.... right???

P.S. If a photo doesn't exist yet, no need to take one on my behalf... what you have is sufficient for me.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Instead, I'm going to either A) let people wear big-boy pants and figure $hlt out, because that's the adult thing to do, or B) recommend they use a different device, and pray the change in device solves the issue.


I don't want to sound like a dinosaur here - I may be old, but I was online before there was an internet, back when we wore onions on our belts - but B is my standard recommendation.

My wife, who is brilliant, accomplished, and is a computer expert in her own right, will spend a half-hour trying to make certain online transaction work on her iPad. After listening to the complaints and troubleshooting for a while, I suggest she go use the real computer. This usually works.

Everybody wants to use their phone for everything, including watching movies together. Am I the only one who thinks this is nuts? I bought that 60" TV for a reason!!!


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

MaxIcon said:


> Everybody wants to use their phone for everything, including watching movies together. Am I the only one who thinks this is nuts? I bought that 60" TV for a reason!!!


Nope! Yer not nuts. I don't understand the current fad of doing everything on a phone... especially not that contraption whereby you strap the phone to your face only a few inches from your eyeballs...

Now... I'm not as "old school" as my wife... she would be very happy with just a flip phone. All she does on hers is call and text (and the texting is a fairly new thing for her). She doesn't check her email on her phone, doesn't buy things on her phone... I guess she has now started to use the bank app and maybe one or two other things... but that is it!

But I agree with you completely!!! Watch movies on the TV!!!... and put the phone down/away every once in a while at least. Take some time away from it for a while, relax and enjoy life without constant bings, dings, vibrations, alerts etc. Unplug yourself and enjoy the moment you are currently in.

Oh.... and stop texting the person in the same room as you! Actually talk to peoples faces!!!

*sigh*


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

MaxIcon said:


> I don't want to sound like a dinosaur here - I may be old, but I was online before there was an internet, back when we wore onions on our belts - but B is my standard recommendation.
> 
> My wife, who is brilliant, accomplished, and is a computer expert in her own right, will spend a half-hour trying to make certain online transaction work on her iPad. After listening to the complaints and troubleshooting for a while, I suggest she go use the real computer. This usually works.
> 
> Everybody wants to use their phone for everything, including watching movies together. Am I the only one who thinks this is nuts? I bought that 60" TV for a reason!!!


Or you could accomplish both by streaming to the tv from your phone!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Shhhhh don't say to much!!! You will be held responsible if his head blows!!



ILiveOnWacker said:


> Or you could accomplish both by streaming to the tv from your phone!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

Rhorya said:


> Forget the Soaps on TV! This has it all! Suspense, drama, intrigue, pictures of watches and Monkey Shoulder! What's not to love?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I am eating popcorn currently......

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

Man those pictures are killing me! Really surprised how much I like the silver dial!

I was in a bad car accident the beginning of August and have been out of work (start back next week though) so I'll have to wait a bit to order one, but order one I shall

Keep up the good work Doc, really love how well the blue strap matches in your pictures, don't know if it was worth all the hassle to you, but damn it looks nice!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Trower44 said:


> Man those pictures are killing me! Really surprised how much I like the silver dial!
> 
> I was in a bad car accident the beginning of August and have been out of work (start back next week though) so I'll have to wait a bit to order one, but order one I shall
> 
> ...


Well wishes to a speedy recovery and may you wear your future watches in good health!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> Doc, I'm about 99.9% sure I know the answer to this, but because I couldn't quite tell for sure from the pictures....
> 
> Are the new bluerquiose watch straps the same as all the other vanilla scented awesomeness as the others on your site? Also, has one of these been placed on a Devil Ray proto and photographed yet? Sure looks great in the pic directly next to the watch! I'm impressed at how well the colors match! I'm still trying to decide if I want to order one of these straps. I got the orange one for my Blue/Orange Orthos, and I like it, quality is good, smells good, feels good, looks good... but I always seem to go back to the bracelet. I guess I'm just more of a bracelet guy... but having options is always a good thing.... right???
> 
> P.S. If a photo doesn't exist yet, no need to take one on my behalf... what you have is sufficient for me.


**Not a rant, but since we're on the subject...**

They will be identical to the 22mm natural rubber straps we have listed on our site, in every way but the color.

The turquoise straps aren't made yet.

That one I posted in that pic is not the same strap.

Same color.

Different strap (style).

And it's a style I don't particularly like, so I'm not in any rush to attach it, especially since I have a very real fear anyone who sees it will assume that's the strap, start complaining about it here and elsewhere, and I'll end up having to repeatedly explain to people that it's not the right strap, why it's not the right strap, what the actual strap will look like, etc.

Too much of that, and my mind might snap.

The strap supplier didn't have any of the strap we want in that color, so they sent a different strap, just so we could confirm the color matches (it does, or close enough for my and any reasonable person's needs).

Since we didn't order the straps yet, they're not made yet, so I can't post a pic of one yet.

I'm not futzing around trying to provide an image for every possible combination of dial color, date window option, strap, light condition and wrist size, because I literally just got them back on Wednesday afternoon, we started pre-orders Friday, and we haven't had the pro photos taken yet, so I don't want to monkey around removing and re-attaching the bracelets and all sorts of straps.

It's a time consuming and often frustrating pain in my ball$, which could result in scratched cases, ruined bracelets, me spending time online correcting people's incorrect assumptions, hair loss, binge drinking, etc.

My top priority is keeping the protos pristine long enough to get the pro photos taken. When those are done, I'll send them out for blogger review, and we might see some other strap combos, or we might not see them until we make delivery, and you all start posting them.

Like so many things, such as picturing this watch on that strap under these lighting conditions on a wrist such and such size - I can't always provide that pic, and sometimes I just have to ask people to use their imaginations to take the images I have provided, and reconfigure those in their minds to get a mental image for what you want to see.

Please help me spread the word...the pics I've posted are accurate. Don't ask me if it's white or silver. I don't know. Look at the pics, and decide for yourself what color you think it is. The strap lengths are posted to the product pages for the straps. Don't ask me if they'll fit a 9" wrist. I have no idea how accurate your wrist measurements are, or how snug a fit you like. They're standard size straps. If those don't usually fit you, odds are these won't either. I don't have a favorite among the four dial colors, and I don't have any opinion on what color thread you should use in a custom leather strap, nor is my opinion about the date window in any way relevant or critical info you need in order to make your purchase decision.

I really need everyone to use some common sense. Some questions aren't worth asking.

Also, just a PSA, on future models, I'm probably not going to be providing real world pics of prototypes before starting pre-orders. We'll be joining the ranks of so many other micro brands, and going back to using high quality illustrations.

The reasons are many, but I'm done running my business according to the loudest voices from a vocal yet anonymous minority on this and other forums. If people want to wait for real world pics, that's fine, but the people who trust me to manage new model production to the right end-point will get the best deal by pre-ordering early, based on the amazingly accurate renders I've been paying Rusty to generate. We'll do real world photography once we've got production pieces in hand.

Your imagination.

Sometimes you have to use it.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

docvail said:


> Your imagination.
> 
> Sometimes you have to use it.


Okay.

* thinks *

I'm in a luxury log cabin with Scarlett Johansen. We're playing 'Panzer commander and flirtatious French farm-girl.' The turret on my Panzer IV is definitely rotating.

You _did_ tell me to use my imagination Chris.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

That's what I thought. The bluerquiose straps will be the same as the current straps in stock, just a new color. Thanks.

Also confirms what I thought, and the strap in the picture was the correct color, but not the exact same style as what will be offered. I probably missed the part where you already explained that... I did go looking, but probably not well enough.

I'm 100% ok with just going off of Rusty's renders... I'm 95% sure that was all I had/used when I ordered my Blue/Orange Orthos, and that watch exceeded my expectations.

Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Okay.
> 
> * thinks *
> 
> ...


Your imagination seems to be veering towards mine

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Watch19 (Oct 15, 2016)

ANALOG!



pop4 said:


> Sorry Doc, I just couldn't help myself...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

The straps look great but the devil ray bracelet might be the best looking one I've seen on a Nth yet...just sayin

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Or you could accomplish both by streaming to the tv from your phone!


Yes, I'm especially fond of stuttering, re-buffering, and over-compressed pixelization!

All my entertainment gear is hard wired to the GB network (even though my wifi is a mesh network), and I prefer DVDs to streaming for serious watching. 1080p doesn't mean much at today's super-compressed online streaming quality.

Dinosaur? You bet, but I'm a high-quality dinosaur!


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> ...any reasonable person's needs.


You keep using that word. I don't think you remember where you are posting.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

People, stop asking him all these questions. We need to focus him on selling those devil rays in all the colors of the rainbow (whilver, bluequoise) to generate enough funds to pay rusty to make those renders of the new Näcken ("renegade" it was, wasn't it?) that we (me, that is) want to see ASAP 





Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

docvail said:


> I'M OUT OF THE WASTING TIME DOING STUPID STUFF FOR $25 BUSINESS.
> 
> ...........snipped.........
> 
> My system works. My business runs pretty well, all things considering, and I've got work to do - work which I'll never get done if I have to deal with a few people's nonsense over and over again.


I think I'm going to print this out and frame it. I applaud Doc for speaking his mind. I'm also very sorry that a few people can't figure out how to use a site that hundreds of others have no problem with. But maybe this watch just isn't for everyone.

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Hahah so it wasn't only me!!!! I do remember this. I am just curious about the colour availability.


Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> People, stop asking him all these questions. We need to focus him on selling those devil rays in all the colors of the rainbow (whilver, bluequoise) to generate enough funds to pay rusty to make those renders of the new Näcken ("renegade" it was, wasn't it?) that we (me, that is) want to see ASAP
> 
> 
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

My home internet is down so I had to use my iPad to order. Twice I tried to pay using PayPal, both failed. So I switched to my credit card and it went right through. I didn't try to use a coupon code. Ordered the turquoise with date. Seriously liking the tank tread bracelet. Now if only I could just forget about the watch until it shows up as an awesome surprise...


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> ...snip
> Also, just a PSA, on future models, I'm probably not going to be providing real world pics of prototypes before starting pre-orders. We'll be joining the ranks of so many other micro brands, and going back to using high quality illustrations.
> snip...


You had me until there. Not a fan of buying anything based on renders especially since your designs tend to be quite um... colorful. I guess people can still preorder based of the renders and then cancel based of the protos. However, that might be more of a hassle than just throwing up some shots/a quick video (that bracelet 2.0 video works well for a quick and dirty look) or saving the preorders for after you can get pro photos. Skipping requests to save your sanity makes sense to me.

Maybe that's just me though.

Regardless congrats on the (I'm assuming) successful start to pre orders.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > ...snip
> ...


I'm not sure I see many of his designs to be colorful....

Riccardo,Acionna, cerberus, orthos (there were a few colorways that were VERY limited), phantom, phantom ghost rider, Nacken, Santa fe, Santa Cruz, Barracuda, commander 300....Antilles, Azores.....I don't see these as colorful, but to each his own, I guess..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> You had me until there. Not a fan of buying anything based on renders especially since your designs tend to be quite um... colorful. I guess people can still preorder based of the renders and then cancel based of the protos. However, that might be more of a hassle than just throwing up some shots/a quick video (that bracelet 2.0 video works well for a quick and dirty look) or saving the preorders for after you can get pro photos. Skipping requests to save your sanity makes sense to me.
> 
> Maybe that's just me though.
> 
> Regardless congrats on the (I'm assuming) successful start to pre orders.


Some guys don't like pre-orders.

Fine, buy when production ends, and they're in stock. The price will be higher, but hey, no waiting.

Some guys don't like buying based on renders.

Fine, buy when there are real world pics. The price will be higher, but hey, no renders.

You see where this is going, right?

A lot of our delays are being caused because I've been jumping through hoops trying to please everyone by providing real-world pics of prototypes, instead of making protos out of the first few pieces to come off the line, and making any necessary adjustments then, rather than trying to get our vendors to prioritize a 4-piece order for prototypes over a 300-piece full production order.

So...business is business, and I'm re-asserting control over mine.

We'll be running pre-orders based on renders for future models.

You know what everyone says when they see real-world pics of every model I've ever made?

"It looks so much better than the renders".

Uhm...yeah, so...maybe y'all ought to trust me to deliver above expectations, as I've been doing since I started, and let me run my business the best way I can, without getting wrapped around the axle with a lot of hand-holding, can't buy it before I see real-world pics, need it for $25 less bull$hlt.

Life's too short.


----------



## Toothbras (Apr 19, 2010)

docvail said:


> Some guys don't like pre-orders.
> 
> Fine, buy when production ends, and they're in stock. The price will be higher, but hey, no waiting.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm... rough day?


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Some guys don't like pre-orders.
> 
> Fine, buy when production ends, and they're in stock. The price will be higher, but hey, no waiting.
> 
> ...


If you hadn't put the "probably" there I wouldn't have even brought it up. I should have known better : P

So you are thinking of skipping advance prototypes completely? Interesting, I can see how that would definitely cut down some lead time. Should be good for some more "What will my factory do next?" posts too.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

ryan92084 said:


> So you are thinking of skipping advance prototypes completely?


I read his post as more about skipping taking photos and blogger-sample-sendouts of prototypes, and only used the prototypes for internal quality/checking purposes. Which, I guess, makes sense.

Stopping prototype production completely seems to be risky AF. How many posts from doc have you seen over the previous years about this or that prototype detail not being as expected, or in need of change, or the factory deciding to change this or that? Afaik this kind of thing has been happening to almost every model. Stopping prototypes completely will mean there's no way to have this control anymore (e.g. it would mean that all devilrays would have come to buyers with messy endlinks).

Anyways. Doc mentioned that one can always buy when the watch is properly released and real-world photos are out. That's not a bad approach. Because, no matter what, render, prototype... the final piece is what you get, and it WILL be different from proto & render. It just plain will. And tbh pro photos from a brand are putting the watches in their best possible state (and sometimes impossible). They will not look like that 90% of the time irl. That's where all the user-made photos on forums, reviews, instagrams etc. really become valuable.

The pro photographer taking shots of the watch in a lightbox in a studio with carefully arranged environment, that's not your friend. The average joe taking a wristshot or breakfast-shot with a potato-camera strapped to a Nokia 5510, that's your friend - because that's gonna tell you what's the 'worst level' look for a watch. How does it look when lighting is ****e. How does it look when the lens is banging against the crystal. If you still like how the watch looks then - and at that point you know 100% that that's exactly what you're gonna get too - then it's a very safe purchase.


----------



## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

docvail said:


> Some guys don't like ... Some guys don't like... You see where this is going, right?
> 
> So ... let me run my business the best way I can, without getting wrapped around the axle with a lot of hand-holding, can't buy it before I see real-world pics, need it for $25 less bull$hlt.
> 
> Life's too short.


(In my best Bubba voice) Dude, I feel yer pain, I really do.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> I read his post as more about skipping taking photos and blogger-sample-sendouts of prototypes, and only used the prototypes for internal quality/checking purposes. Which, I guess, makes sense.
> 
> Stopping prototype production completely seems to be risky AF. How many posts from doc have you seen over the previous years about this or that prototype detail not being as expected, or in need of change, or the factory deciding to change this or that? Afaik this kind of thing has been happening to almost every model. Stopping prototypes completely will mean there's no way to have this control anymore (e.g. it would mean that all devilrays would have come to buyers with messy endlinks).
> 
> Snip...


That's what i thought he meant originally but



docvail said:


> A lot of our delays are being caused because I've been jumping through hoops trying to please everyone by providing real-world pics of prototypes, instead of making protos out of the first few pieces to come off the line, and making any necessary adjustments then, rather than trying to get our vendors to prioritize a 4-piece order for prototypes over a 300-piece full production order.
> .


Seems to say otherwise.

Current (overly simplified) process: make renders, advance order one of each color from factory, deal with shipping, take wrist shots, wait for bracelet then more wrist shots, clarify points with factory, potential trip to the factory and back for the protos, have a fancy photoshoot and blogger tour, start preorder, finally make order based on prototypes, wait x months.

Potential misinterpreted process 2.0* : make renders, start preorder, order xxx pieces from factory based on renders, make some complete mockups early in the process, deal with shipping, clarify points with factory, have the factory fix potential quirks, fancy photos/blogger tour, wait less time.

*Or not since I'm not doc. I'm sure we'll find out in the next models preorder FAQ/a wall o' text after the devil ray madness has died down or maybe not.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



skipwilliams said:


> I think I'm going to print this out and frame it. I applaud Doc for speaking his mind. I'm also very sorry that a few people can't figure out how to use a site that hundreds of others have no problem with. But maybe this watch just isn't for everyone.
> 
> Skip


Thanks, Skip. I'm sure I often sound like I don't give a crap about other people's opinions, but the truth is it helps me feel confident I'm doing the right thing when guys speak up and say I'm reacting in a reasonable way when confronted with unreasonable people making unreasonable demands.

BTW - hope you can make our next Philly GTG, unless I'm mistaken, we missed seeing you at the last one, right?



Toothbras said:


> Hmmmm... rough day?


Not really, but life definitely is too short.

When it comes to handling the occasional difficult/unreasonable customer - and every business has them - a lot of what I do was learned watching and listening to my uncle and my step-father, both successful business owners, both fairly accommodating of almost any reasonable request, but both guys I've seen in situations where they had to enforce a boundary, for the sake of the business, its employees, for their own sanity, and in order to not reward - and thereby encourage - bad/unfair behavior from someone trying to take advantage.



Chronopolis said:


> (In my best Bubba voice) Dude, I feel yer pain, I really do.


I wish you didn't. Maybe I'm too transparent with all this stuff.

Now that the initial rush has died down, let me try to clarify some of what's been said since Friday:

1. Pre-orders

I've been evolving the way we do pre-orders since starting my business - that's 12 pre-orders now. I've done my best to balance the needs of my business against what you all would and do consider to be a positive buying experience.

The "early-bird pricing" model of having price tiers and limiting the number of pieces available at each tier clearly works, in that it creates a sense of urgency, which helps my business A LOT, but also helps you all, whether you realize it or not, by forcing me to lower the average price you all pay - regardless of what price any one of you pays - and shortening the amount of time between pre-orders starting and production starting, which means you're not waiting as long for delivery.

We started doing it with the Phantom, that was a big mess, but I learned a lot, and with each iteration, it's gotten better. We haven't had many people complain since the first round of subs. We've done three pre-orders since then, and they've all gone smoothly. At this point, I'm not getting a ton of people complaining about the process being all but impossible to get through, incredibly stressful for you all, etc.

I think it's as good a process and structure as I can make it. The feedback I've gotten from most people has been positive. I know my site works, I try to prepare everyone with what to expect...I mean, what more can I do here, to make this as seamless and low-stress as possible, without losing that sense of urgency?

If someone has gone through three of the last four pre-orders, the last three of which have been fairly trouble-free for the vast majority of people, and STILL manages to have problems, and it's OBVIOUS that nothing I do will prevent that, and they INSIST on making their small problems into big problems for me and my business, that doesn't just hurt my business, it hurts my other customers, if it drives me to make changes that lower the value for you all.

Rather than lower the value for the 99% for whom the system works well, I think it's better to just part ways with the 1% for whom the system never seems to work well enough. I only wish the lead-up didn't require me to drop a series of increasingly less-subtle hints that one way or the other, I will solve the problem.

The only alternative I see is to be much quicker to tell someone I can't meet their expectations, but then of course we'd have more guys going around saying "Doc's a big poopy-head", or whatever they say about me after I've given up trying to help them.

2. Prototypes

When I started, I demanded prototypes for practical reasons. I wanted to be sure the factory (my old factory) could deliver reliably on a small scale before committing to a large scale, I wanted to see they could deliver quality, and I HAD to have a working prototype in order to list my project on Kickstarter under their "product design" category, rather than the "fashion" category, which I saw as less advantageous.

I'm no longer working with that factory. My new factory is among the best in the business. I'm no longer using Kickstarter.

I got used to making prototypes as a part of the process, and we'd use the protos as proofs, a physical sample we could use for photography, and make any necessary changes for production. But, there are some problems with doing that.

First, all the sub-vendors our factory uses have MOQ's for every component. They understand that some idiots out there insist on having 4-6 protos made up before committing to mass production, but if you were them, and you had two orders sitting in your inbox, one for 300-500 dials or handsets, and one for 4-6 dials or handsets, which would you prioritize?

Of course our prototype order is low priority for them, and so we always get delays, of unpredictable duration, and it's killing my business, in a very real way, by slowing everything down, including my cash flow.

Second - the prototypes ALWAYS have some little thing wrong with them, and very often, it's something we can't fix in photoshop, or something I don't want to have to explain to bloggers, or ask them to explain in their reviews, so I have to send them back to be re-done, adding even more delays, and partially defeating the purpose.

Case in point, look at where we are on the DevilRay - I should have had photo-ready prototypes 3 months ago, and I was forced to do pre-orders using 3D renders, just to stick to our delivery target and get back on schedule. Whether you demand real-world pics or not, I've been forced to give you good 3D renders and half-a$$ed real-world pics, which isn't what I want, and isn't what you all want.

And I'm still way behind on everything, in that because of all the time and added work I've had to put into getting the DevilRay to this point, I haven't been able to do the work I need to do on future models, which is why I haven't started pre-orders on the Spectre II, or sent my factory the next batch of NTH Subs designs.

And, because I haven't had good protos, and all the time I've wasted doing stuff I shouldn't have been doing, I haven't been able to promote it the way I should have been, so it's made my job that much harder. I missed the opportunity to do a limited edition version for a group that probably would have been 100 additional pieces. I could have used those sales.

It's a mess. So, does that mean we have to commit to production, and might get details "wrong"? Not really.

For one thing, if I didn't show you guys the designs in all their micro-detail before we get samples, you wouldn't know if or how the samples were different than what I'd planned. It would be frustrating for me, but not disappointing to you.

For another thing, I've been hammering my factory about the changes they've been making to my designs going back to the Subs. They understand I won't accept it, and I'm getting better at preventing it from happening early on.

There are two main areas of changes/problems - the first area is changes to the design, often/specifically my case design. This does cause delays, but it gets straightened out before we start prototyping anyway. We've yet to prototype anything that wasn't according to my design, and needed re-tooling after the prototypes were delivered. If we skipped prototyping, as we've been doing it, there still wouldn't be anything made without me approving it first, and incurring those initial tooling costs.

The other area is minor changes we catch when we get the protos, like the polished bezel on the DevilRay samples, but these are things we can easily fix for mass production - without needing to re-do tooling. It's just a change in finish.

Instead of asking all the sub-vendors to whip up 4-6 pieces of every component, we should just be putting in our order for the full production as soon as we're satisfied that the designs are "final", meaning we've already gotten past any changes they made between me sending them our renders and them sending me back their versions to approve.

All the other little things we catch can still be caught if we take the first few pieces off the line, and use those as the samples we proof for any changes to the rest of the production.

If the factory had taken the first 4 pieces of the DevilRay off the line, and sent me samples with polished bezels and bracelet sides, and the wrong end-lnk - the three things that were wrong in the protos, we could quickly/easily fix all of those, just as we did, and it wouldn't cost me anything in additional tooling, just as it didn't cost me anything the way we've been doing things.

Even that wrong end-link - that was a change the bracelet vendor made, and they had to fix it on their dime, because it wasn't according to the design I approved. It's added what, a few weeks? It wouldn't be a huge problem if we weren't already months behind.

Again, if we just made samples out of the first few pieces off the line, at that point, if there's something which might be slightly different than how I wanted it, and fixing it would require new tooling, it would have to be something really small, probably inconsequential. It shouldn't be a problem, at least not for you all, if i'm not here venting about it.

I can't even think of anything in the last few models' prototypes which was substantially different than how I wanted it AND couldn't be quickly/easily fixed for production. None of these delays has been necessary in order to ensure quality or execution as desired.

And again, I want to point out - look how many well established micros do pre-orders off illustrations, and/or don't provide all the detailed photography I do, going to great lengths to show the watches from every angle, under the most ideal conditions, etc. The vast majority either show you illustrations, or if there is any photography, it isn't very professionally done, nor as detailed as what we're doing. Why am I killing myself over this?

Bottom line, insisting on prototypes, the way we've been doing them, is clearly counter-productive, and if the only need it serves is allaying some people's fears about buying from an illustration, even considering how accurate our illustrations have proven to be, okay, fine, don't buy from an illustration, wait until you can see real-world photos, which, good news, shouldn't take as long, if we're no longer dlcking around for 5 or 6 months trying to get 4-6 prototypes.

I'm not arguing with anyone about it. My business isn't a democracy. Everyone is free to buy or not buy based on their own opinion about the value of what I'm offering and the fairness of how I'm offering it. But for the health of my business, and my own health, I need to make this change, so it's being made.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Doc, Your transparency is why I am always coming back to this thread.
I learn so much and in turn become less confused...maybe I need a new user name.


----------



## dpage (Dec 24, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Thanks, Skip. I'm sure I often sound like I don't give a crap about other people's opinions, but the truth is it helps me feel confident I'm doing the right thing when guys speak up and say I'm reacting in a reasonable way when confronted with unreasonable people making unreasonable demands.
> 
> BTW - hope you can make our next Philly GTG, unless I'm mistaken, we missed seeing you at the last one, right?
> 
> ...


This wasn't my first preorder but it was my first with NTH, I was impressed with all the trouble you went through to instruct us on how it would work. I read it all, looked at the pics and prepared the best I could prior to the start time. Even at that I made some minor mistakes that were my fault but got through it all in pretty good time.

I use my desktop iMac because it is the system I am most familiar with, I have an iPhone and iPad but definitely not as experienced with the iOS operating system and besides don't make purchases on them.

I hope the rest of the process goes as smoothly and the watches meet or exceed expectations in a reasonable time frame!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Sometimes people forget that Doc does all this stuff to try and make a living and feed his family. So, delays cost him money. $25 coupons cost him money. Returns cost him money. A long list of other stuff cost him money. If he can eliminate that long list of stuff, churn out new models quickly, keep quality high, and sell a lot of watches, then his family has a nicer life...


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Thanks to Doc for a heck of a lot more detail & explanation there than I've ever seen from a guy in his position

This was my 3rd pre-order. I always use a PC or full laptop (I do find trying to do something like this on a small phone screen is just awkward personally - but that goes for how I feel about phones in context of pretty much every single e-commerce site I've ever seen running on one, so it could just be me)

Speaking purely personally, the transaction was fine, and I'm now happily awaiting my Devil Rays. I do genuinely feel for those who did struggle, but at the end of the day, as others have said, its sweatin' over relatively small stuff when you're looking at context of maybe $25 on a watch at a price point that is very competitive throughout the pre-order tiers imho. Sometimes you just have to 'let it go' (...and I'm now going to have that darn movie song stuck in my head for the entire evening)

On the shift to ordering off renders, after that post I get why that's happening & the reasoning behind it. If it speeds things up & makes Doc's business a smoother, more predictable to manage & more stable one in terms of schedules, then that's surely a good thing for us all as customers too- not least as it means there'll be more designs coming in the future on a reasonably predictable timeline! If this was a new company off the block, then maybe you'd get the heebee jeebies on pre-ordering off a render, but c'mon, we've all seen the track record here of what Doc puts out as a finished product every darn time... I for one am happy to show a little faith here


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Sometimes people forget that Doc does all this stuff to try and make a living and feed his family. So, delays cost him money. $25 coupons cost him money. Returns cost him money. A long list of other stuff cost him money. If he can eliminate that long list of stuff, churn out new models quickly, keep quality high, and sell a lot of watches, then his family has a nicer life...


The whole "$25 refund because a code wasn't used during pre-order" thing is just absurd.

How many times have we gotten to the cash register in a store, and realized we had a coupon at home, which we either forgot, or just didn't bring because we didn't realize we'd be stopping at that store to get whatever thing it is we had a coupon for?

Suppose the item you're buying is on sale, and you can be sure the price will be going up soon. Maybe you aren't sure if you'll be able to get back there with your coupon before the prices go back up.

You have a choice - go home and get the coupon, or check out without it. Is the store "charging you extra" because you forgot your coupon? C'mon. The store didn't do anything to cost you money, you cost yourself money. How big a deal is it, really?

If you don't want to go home and get the coupon, because you don't want to make two trips to the store, does it make sense to make a second trip to the store later anyway, in order to demand they issue a partial refund for the amount of the coupon? Suppose they say they don't do refunds for coupons that weren't used at the time of sale - are you really going to kick up that big a fuss over $25?

If you insist, if the store accepts returns, and if the coupon hasn't expired, you can return the item, get your money back, and go back through checkout with the coupon, and save that money. But how far are you willing to go for $25, and suppose the price of the item has gone up $25 in the interim? What was the point of all that, if you didn't end up saving anything, and only ended up wasting your time, and someone else's?

That's the scenario here.

I provide coupon codes for people to use, as an incentive to get people to buy something, not because I want to spend my time doing $25 refunds. It's ecommerce, emphasis on the "E", meaning I'm not standing at a register to take your money, it's up to everyone to enter your address, credit card info, and if you have it, a coupon code. If you fail to do that, regardless of the reason or reasoning, how am I to blame, especially if most other people managed to get through it all without a problem?

Is someone really going to argue I'm being unreasonable if I don't want to spend the time it takes me to edit that order, just so someone who cost themselves $25 can take $25 out of my pocket, especially if the situation seems to be a case of someone who places a much higher value on their own time than they do mine, and doesn't seem able or willing to understand everything I've tried to communicate to them about all this?

It's a problem of the 1%, and I'm out of the 1% business. I'm here for the 99% who get what we're doing, and like it.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

here's a kicker....I ordered Turquise.. The thing is, I specifically waited for the rush to be over, and happily paid $500 for a friggin great watch.. I ordered it and spent a little more for many reasons, one of which is I am supporting the man behind the brand. You can even check with Doc when I ordered and the price I paid.

Here's to the wait!!


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I feel prototypes are a waste of time and resources. IMO the finished product almost always looks better than a rendering. If I buy a watch based on a rendering and I don't like it most likely I'll be able to flip it and either break even, make a few bucks, maybe lose a few. That's life.


----------



## idvsego (Jul 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> The whole "$25 refund because a code wasn't used during pre-order" thing is just absurd.
> 
> How many times have we gotten to the cash register in a store, and realized we had a coupon at home, which we either forgot, or just didn't bring because we didn't realize we'd be stopping at that store to get whatever thing it is we had a coupon for?
> 
> ...


I have been wondering something for a while. Coupons and discount codes seem to be a recurring problem. Both in people asking, them being applied during the frenzy and you answering questions about them. The typical response seems to be something along the lines of "really, the coupon code is your decision factor? the watches are worth way more". So my question is this...why do you offer coupon codes or loyalty points? If it is such a complication and aggravation and not a legitimate factor in the buying decision, why not just let your product stand on its pricing?


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

docvail said:


> ?... So my question is this...why do you offer coupon codes or loyalty points?


The answer was in Doc's post, you quoted.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



idvsego said:


> I have been wondering something for a while. Coupons and discount codes seem to be a recurring problem. Both in people asking, them being applied during the frenzy and you answering questions about them. The typical response seems to be something along the lines of "really, the coupon code is your decision factor? the watches are worth way more". So my question is this...why do you offer coupon codes or loyalty points? If it is such a complication and aggravation and not a legitimate factor in the buying decision, why not just let your product stand on its pricing?


I think you're exaggerating the frequency of and degree to which they're a "problem".

The vast majority of transactions take place without issue, even during pre-order. Many of those transactions involve some code being used, so many that I now assume every transaction will be discounted by an average of $15. It's rarely a "problem" at all, of any size or degree.

And yes, I do feel strongly that the product is worth at least what I'm asking for it, if not more. Logically, I'd think 100% of my customers agree, otherwise, why are they handing over their money, if they think the product is worth LESS???

But the simple fact is that it's become so commonplace for people to expect some sort of "discount" when ordering anything online, that analysis has definitively shown that NOT having some sort of code, at least for first-time purchasers, can hurt sales, slow revenue, decrease conversion rates, increase cart abandonment, etc.

Prior to implementing our loyalty rewards program, we just had one code, only good for one use per customer, and it was widely used, usually on someone's first purchase.

After a couple of years, we had a lot of data to analyze, and we discovered I had really high repeat sales, higher than typical, higher than expected. Since it's harder to attract a new customer than it is to get an existing customer to buy again, we decided it would be a good idea to implement an incentive program to get more of our existing customers to become repeat customers, with a program that provided repeat rewards, and possibly increasing rewards. That became a core component of our growth strategy.

It works well, but about a year or two later, we saw that the growth rate attributable to repeat sales leveled out, and it was obvious that in order to keep growing, we should focus more effort on getting new customers, because no one can become a repeat customer until they make their first purchase. So that's about the time we increased our advertising budget, and our ad experts say ads with some sort of incentive offer perform better than those without one.

Most reasonable people will happily save $25 on something if you offer them the chance, but most of those people are unlikely to get too emotional about it if they miss out, and won't kick up a fuss over it, especially not if they're already saving $200-$250, and you tell them the $25 code never expires.

It's the unreasonable people who make a big deal out of a $25 difference one way or the other, and get fixated on it, to the point it's enough to make them angry, cancel their order, etc. Imagine that - getting so upset about having to wait until your next purchase to save $25 that you cancel your last purchase, in which you saved $250.

Me, I don't see the point, and "gets upset over a temporary $25 difference while saving $200-$250" seems as good a litmus test as any for separating the reasonable from the unreasonable.

For that matter, just about everything people challenge me on seems silly at this point. My business isn't the only one of its kind. Why break my balls about the little things you don't agree with?

A few blocks from my house, there's a little commercial district with stores and restaurants. All the restaurants use the sidewalk - the public sidewalk - for outdoor seating. You have to walk through their seating to get down the street. My wife and I walk our dog through sometimes. Lots of people do, and we frequently see people sitting and eating with their dogs sitting nearby.

One time, we wanted to stop at the restaurant on the corner for a burger, but they wouldn't serve us, because we had our dog. They cited local ordnance or some BS.

I thought it was stupid to refuse service when we were already walking through the very area where we'd be sitting, a public sidewalk, probably paid for with my real estate taxes, but we didn't argue with them about it. We just went two doors down, and had a couple of slices of pizza with our dog sitting there.

To me, the policy seemed stupid, just like something I do may seem stupid to other people, but maybe the guy who owns that restaurant is thinking about the potential lawsuit when someone's dog bites some other patron, and he doesn't want to get stuck arguing with me when I tell him my dog doesn't bite. He just wants me to accept the policy, and come back later without the dog.

I didn't go around telling everyone the bar hates dogs and dog owners. Not letting us sit with our dog isn't hurting the place on the corner. The food is good, the price is right, it's ideally located, and the waitresses are easy on the eyes. It's always packed with people. It didn't upset us enough to keep us from eating there three times since then.

Like most things, it's a small deal, until you make it a big deal.

You don't like pre-orders, need real world pics, want to complain about not saving another $25 on a pre-order, and don't like my other policies?

Rather than giving me $hlt about how I run my business, a business which seems to be doing well with the policies in place, why not just go two doors down, and just come back when you don't have the dog?

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## sevens (Nov 2, 2010)

I want to purchase the NTH Nacken Blue and NTH Amphion Vintage.  
Anyone has ? Thanks,


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> <big wall o' text>
> 2. Prototypes
> <big wall o' text mk.II>


Appreciate the insight. No preorder wrist shots for less delays and quicker turn around does sound like a pretty good tradeoff. Makes more sense than what I thought you originally meant (keeping the process the same just minus the wrist shots), not that it needs to of course.

It'll be interesting to see if that causes an appreciable increase in pre-order changes/cancelations. The forum posts seem to say it might "was going to go orange until I saw that the beautiful whilver in the sun" etc. However, they could just turn out to be the vocal minority.

BTW iirc you are cider man. Next time you are picking some up if you see some Downeast I recommend giving it a shot if you haven't. Just try to remember to shake it up first (not a troll it is written on the can).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Public service announcement.

If you lose the screw to one of the links in your watch bracelet, it's in your pocket, like, guaranteed.

I've had it happen twice, maybe three times, and every time, the screw was in my pocket.

I'm no mathematician, but I'm pretty sure that's 100%.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Public service announcement.
> 
> If you lose the screw to one of the links in your watch bracelet, it's in your pocket, like, guaranteed.
> 
> ...


I've heard of pocket pool, but pocket screws? Now there's a thing!!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## 760274 (Jul 24, 2015)

If you loose that screw outside of the pocket, you're screwed.


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

Damn my smartphone died and had to be an adult and pass up on the devil ray for now to use that money for phone acquisition. To those who got or are getting a black one hope that life forces you to sell me a mint one in the future. Nothing personal.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

R.A.D. said:


> Damn my smartphone died and had to be an adult and pass up on the devil ray for now to use that money for phone acquisition. To those who got or are getting a black one hope that life forces you to sell me a mint one in the future. Nothing personal.


I'd make a list and put you on it of people I'll sell mine to after I get it, but according to doc we don't do lists!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

....and fired another client today.................................................................................


----------



## 760274 (Jul 24, 2015)

GlenRoiland said:


> ....and fired another client today.................................................................................


I wish I could say that...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gents (and any Ladies who might be lurking), I want to apologize about some things.

Whenever I have to resolve some irreconcilable difference with a customer, the days leading up to and following that resolution are often a time of reflection for me. I reflect on what I'm doing, how I'm doing it, and why. I try to use it as a learning experience.

I try to mentally play out alternative courses of action, alternative positions I might have taken, etc, in an effort to try to minimize the likelihood of that situation repeating, and to improve how my business serves its customers, as well as make me happier running it. 

Looking back on about a dozen similar situations over the last 4+ years, I'm able to see a few things they all have in common. 

Very often, and in retrospect, I'm able to see that there was a point in time, very early on, when all my instincts told me I was dealing with someone who had a set of expectations which I either considered unreasonable on their face, or they were simply expectations I wasn't able or willing to meet. 

That's someone I should not be dealing with, because we'll never see eye to eye, and no matter what I do, the situation will end badly. 

But instead of acting on that instinct, and taking definitive action right away, I tried to give the person the benefit of the doubt, the doubt that I might be mis-reading the situation. 

Part of it was that I was somewhat scared that by being "too quick" to act, I'd only reinforce the "Soup N4zi" caricature I know already exists about me. Part of it was I thought it would be a good thing if I could treat it as an exercise in being more patient - maybe I could turn these situations around, to a better result. Maybe it would show people I'm not a Soup N4zi.

And so I ended up in a protracted series of interactions with these people, sometimes in private, but all too often, in public, wherein I tried to resolve the disagreements with words, rather than actions. I know some of you found it all entertaining, but I'm sure many of you also got as tired of the drama as I did.

Clearly, that's never worked. I was only delaying the inevitable. My initial instincts were spot-on, in just about every case, and it would have been better for me, and all my customers, if I'd just cut ties at the first sign of trouble. We could have saved all that time, all that drama, and all those wall-o-text posts.

So, I'm sorry, to you all, for not being more decisive earlier on, which led to a lot of silliness and me repeating a lot of obvious crap most of you didn't need to be told. From now on, I will endeavor to listen to my gut more, and be quicker to admit when I won't be able to meet someone's expectations. 

I want to be very clear that this isn't in any way meant to be an ultimatum of any kind. If you've been shaking your head and rolling your eyes at all the nonsense, you're likely to understand exactly what I'm saying, and why. If you've found it entertaining, sorry that I'll be trying to cut back on that sort of entertainment, but I'll do what I can to keep things lively in other ways.

If any of you read about how I canceled someone's order and refunded their money, just know that all I did was admit my own failure to deliver what that person wanted from me. And while it might seem like I was a bit quick to admit failure, I did it because I saw all the usual tell-tale signs, and I felt a duty to that person, a duty to avoid the risk that I'd only continue to disappoint them.

To anyone who reads this and hasn't seen enough to know exactly what I'm talking about, I encourage you to not simply consider the product and its price before you buy anything, but also consider the process you have to go through to buy it, and educate yourself about the policies which guide how that business operates. 

Liking the product and the price isn't enough if you don't like the process or the policies. If that's the situation, understand that in most cases (and certainly, in mine), neither of those is likely to change by brow-beating the business about them, and doing that isn't going to increase anyone's happiness.


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

Rhorya said:


> I'd make a list and put you on it of people I'll sell mine to after I get it, but according to doc we don't do lists!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


No biggie, i could send you a daily email to help you remember and some suggestions on how you should treat the watch in the meantime 

Cant wait to see some nice pics of the dr to get some consolation


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

I'm not about to read all of that nonsense, but I'll say this. If a business owner is willing to put his money where his mouth is (or where his walls of text are) and chooses to forego or return a customer's money rather than leave them dissatisfied or continue an unproductive relationship, I find that refreshing.


----------



## 59yukon01 (Aug 27, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

^^^Refreshing indeed. No matter what the old saying is, the customer IS NOT always right. 30+ years in sales has taught me this well, especially in today's "I'm not to be blamed society". Sometimes you just have to punt and walk off the field.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> I'm not about to read all of that nonsense, but I'll say this. If a business owner is willing to put his money where his mouth is (or where his walls of text are) and chooses to forego or return a customer's money rather than leave them dissatisfied or continue an unproductive relationship, I find that refreshing.


Are you going to the micro-brands meetup in DC? Please do.

I plan to nonsense the $hlt outta you.


----------



## 760274 (Jul 24, 2015)

Doc, does that mean your next novel if officially cancelled?


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

A wall-o-text just as an informer that there won't be wall-o-texts no more? Damn. Can someone please come up with a LIST of SUGGESTIONS or IDEAS? Quick quick!!


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Gents (and any Ladies who might be lurking), I want to apologize about some things.
> 
> Snip.........




I actually thought of you as I was firing this client yesterday. He began to physically threaten my technician, and I told him it has become increasingly obvious to me that I am unable to meet his expectations and as such it would be inappropriate for me to take his money. You popped into my head (of course after I told him he'd leave in a stretcher if he took another step toward my tech)......


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> I actually thought of you as I was firing this client yesterday. He began to physically threaten my technician, and I told him it has become increasingly obvious to me that I am unable to meet his expectations and as such it would be inappropriate for me to take his money. You popped into my head (of course after I told him he'd leave in a stretcher if he took another step toward my tech)......


You're RoboVet!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



59yukon01 said:


> ^^^Refreshing indeed. No matter what the old saying is, the customer IS NOT always right. 30+ years in sales has taught me this well, especially in today's "I'm not to be blamed society". Sometimes you just have to punt and walk off the field.


A cliche perhaps, but a phrase that often springs to mind in sales - "buyers are liars" - run into that one all too often........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Had a long chat myself this morning with a service provider that offered good product and price, but proved unmanageable and inefficient and aggravating having to help them help me. The conversation was to see if my experience is what they meant to provide, in which case i was gone, or something went sideways, in which case i could stomach a second chance. Ive learned that replacement odds are about the same as second chance odds. 

Still, that fellow you fired, doc, just didnt get it. Wasnt going to get it. No surprise that he got it!

And glen, when someone threatens your employee, firing is the least of it. Congrats on your restraint!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

...and here's a watch to mix things up a little...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Congrats on your restraint!


At first I read this as "Congrats on your restaurant!".

As for guys who don't get it, I'm still trying to figure out how best to let guys know I'm considering admitting I failed them and they should not give me their business without sounding like an angry guy telling someone to go pound sand.

Admitting I failed them sounds nicer. Calling them on their bull$hlt feels more natural.

I'm somewhat reminded of the two instances involving guys who submitted VERY negative product reviews to my website, but when I presented them with an opportunity to either send the watch back for a refund or sell it to someone who wanted it, they both stated they actually liked the watch, and wanted to keep it, they just wanted me to publish their negative review.

Let me say that again - they LIKED the watch, wanted to keep it, and didn't want their money back...they just wanted people to see their negative comments.

Okay. I admit it. I'm a guy who doesn't get that.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Something something about having to eat every chicken in room...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Azores rocks










Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Doc, that was one of the best uses of a GoT meme I've seen in a while... good work!


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

I could not find an answer to this, so I'll ask here:

The half-link in the NTH bracelets, is it the same size difference as the micro-adjustment on the clasp or is it in between? I'm currently on the 2nd hole of the clasp with the half-link in, and with the cooler weather the bracelet will be a bit loose for my liking. I don't want to go a full micro-adjust hole down because I think it will be too snug. If I remove the half-link and go _out_ a micro-adjustment, should I find a happy medium? Yes I now realize I probably could have done it in the time it took to explain.


----------



## jeffreyt (Mar 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> At first I read this as "Congrats on your restaurant!".
> 
> As for guys who don't get it, I'm still trying to figure out how best to let guys know I'm considering admitting I failed them and they should not give me their business without sounding like an angry guy telling someone to go pound sand.
> 
> ...


Speaking of bad reviews... I just checked and my horribly written, while drunk, 5 star review of the Phantom is still up. Excellent! The Khaki Phantom is "Better than Butter". I ended up giving the watch to my neighbor because he always complimented me on it every time I wore it. He now wears it everyday and calls it his Huey, Dewey, and Louie watch.

Jeff


----------



## dpage (Dec 24, 2010)

Rice and Gravy said:


> I could not find an answer to this, so I'll ask here:
> 
> The half-link in the NTH bracelets, is it the same size difference as the micro-adjustment on the clasp or is it in between? I'm currently on the 2nd hole of the clasp with the half-link in, and with the cooler weather the bracelet will be a bit loose for my liking. I don't want to go a full micro-adjust hole down because I think it will be too snug. If I remove the half-link and go _out_ a micro-adjustment, should I find a happy medium? Yes I now realize I probably could have done it in the time it took to explain.


Get a ruler and measure!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rice and Gravy said:


> I could not find an answer to this, so I'll ask here:
> 
> The half-link in the NTH bracelets, is it the same size difference as the micro-adjustment on the clasp or is it in between? I'm currently on the 2nd hole of the clasp with the half-link in, and with the cooler weather the bracelet will be a bit loose for my liking. I don't want to go a full micro-adjust hole down because I think it will be too snug. If I remove the half-link and go _out_ a micro-adjustment, should I find a happy medium? Yes I now realize I probably could have done it in the time it took to explain.


This is one of those sorts of questions people ask me, and I assume they assume I'd know the answer, which makes me feel like maybe I should know the answer, but then I realize I've gotten this far without knowing, and if Seiko doesn't supply you with info like the precise diameter of their spring-bars, maybe I don't need to know what size screwdriver to use on the removable links, and it's okay if I leave customers to figure some stuff out for themselves.

I hope I don't sound like a jerk, but there are some things I just don't know, figure I don't need to know, and figure I can get away with letting people do their own measurements or trial-and-error.

Just for gits and shiggles, here's a partial list:

1. What size screwdriver to use on the screws in removable links - for any of the models we've produced.

I've got a handful of small screwdrivers in a cup by my desk. I try them all until I find one that fits. It's never occurred to me to measure that screwdriver or the screw so I'd know for future reference. It takes me 5 seconds to find the right one, typically. If none of them fit, I buy more, in assorted sizes.

2. The length of the links and half links in any of the bracelets we've produced.

I can tell you the links are usually right around 25% as thick as the thickness of the case, because that seems to be the industry standard, but I've never bothered to specify nor learn how long the links in any bracelet are.

3. The distance between tang holes on any strap.

I can't remember if anyone's ever asked me, but it doesn't seem any more esoteric than a lot of other things I distinctly remember people asking.

4. Whether or not any strap will fit any size wrist when mounted on any watch.

I personally know at least two guys who abysmally failed at measuring their own wrist circumference accurately. I suspect one guy tried to do it by moving a flat ruler around his wrist.

My level of confidence in the average forum-regular's ability to accurately measure their wrist is not high. When I can't know if anyone's measuring correctly, or how loose/tight anyone likes their watch to fit, I can't know if any strap will fit anyone.

5. The weight of a watch.

I can certainly weigh a watch. And if it's on a strap, I can know its weight. But when it's on a bracelet, and your factory routinely produces bracelets large enough to fit a gorilla, do you weigh it with all the links in, and if not, how many links should you remove/what size wrist should you assume when weighing?

To your credit, yours is at least a question with an answer I could reach, if I was determined enough to measure (I'm not).

Some questions I get would seem to be obviously very subjective or dependent on individual factors, preventing me from being able to answer, and leading me to wonder if people realize what they're asking me.

^^^All meant in good fun, which I'd hope is obvious, but apparently anything longer than 2 lines reads like a rant, to some.


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

jeffreyt said:


> The Khaki Phantom is "Better than Butter". I ended up giving the watch to my neighbor because he always complimented me on it every time I wore it. He now wears it everyday and calls it his Huey, Dewey, and Louie watch.
> 
> Jeff


Very generous of you. I need to get me some new neighbours. Fancy moving to the UK? ;-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchuck said:


> Very generous of you. I need to get me some new neighbours. Fancy moving to the UK? ;-)


He had me with "butter".

Dieting and exercise suck.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Rice and Gravy said:


> I could not find an answer to this, so I'll ask here:
> 
> The half-link in the NTH bracelets, is it the same size difference as the micro-adjustment on the clasp or is it in between? I'm currently on the 2nd hole of the clasp with the half-link in, and with the cooler weather the bracelet will be a bit loose for my liking. I don't want to go a full micro-adjust hole down because I think it will be too snug. If I remove the half-link and go _out_ a micro-adjustment, should I find a happy medium? Yes I now realize I probably could have done it in the time it took to explain.


Have you tried a new wrist.......

Cheers,
Alan


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Speaking of bracelets.
Anyone ever tried one of these tools? Spring bar chopsticks!
Bergeon makes a high dollar version.
Could this be the trick to tight fitting end links?


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> This is one of those sorts of questions people ask me, and I assume they assume I'd know the answer, which makes me feel like maybe I should know the answer, but then I realize I've gotten this far without knowing, and if Seiko doesn't supply you with info like the precise diameter of their spring-bars, maybe I don't need to know what size screwdriver to use on the removable links, and it's okay if I leave customers to figure some stuff out for themselves.
> 
> I hope I don't sound like a jerk, but there are some things I just don't know, figure I don't need to know, and figure I can get away with letting people do their own measurements or trial-and-error.
> 
> ...


Yes, obvious.  I figured you might know since you were so meticulous with everything else in the design, so I assumed that the half links were specifically designed to fill that in between. Image SHATTERED! But I'll do you a solid in a few; I'll measure and try both out and post up the results so that all future fellow persnickety bracelet fitment ninnies will know exactly what they are dealing with. :-!


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

docvail said:


> He had me with "butter".
> 
> Dieting and exercise suck.


I feel your pain, my GP and a cardiologist just started me on that painful path : "your blood pressure gets too high at time... You should loose about 25 pounds!" Ah...

You're very right, that sucks. Big time.

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rice and Gravy said:


> Yes, obvious.  I figured you might know since you were so meticulous with everything else in the design, so I assumed that the half links were specifically designed to fill that in between. Image SHATTERED! But I'll do you a solid in a few; I'll measure and try both out and post up the results so that all future fellow persnickety bracelet fitment ninnies will know exactly what they are dealing with. :-!


*Deep in the weeds warning*

I'm pretty sure my factory told me they couldn't make the "half" link on the DevilRay precisely 1/2 the size of the other links. I can't recall what they said they planned to do about it - make the half links some length that wasn't really half, or just do away with them completely.

As obsessive as I can be about many details, specific link-length isn't one of them, and sometimes, by the time we get this far, I'm so exhausted from dealing with it all that I stop being so obsessive about every little thing, and I just let the product get made.

I just looked at the bracelets of the DevilRay protos, and I'll be damned if I can tell that there's any difference in length for any of the links. The links themselves aren't that wide/long, and the clasp expands, so I'm already guessing this is going to be one of those things about which some people grouse but I just shrug.

Since I wear my watches a tad loose, it's not hard for me to get a good fit, and it doesn't seem like I'm losing sales because I screwed up on the size-ability of the Subs' bracelets (which is the model I think we're talking about), so there isn't a powerful motivator for me to assign myself the responsibility to figure it all out.

It's a watch bracelet. There are removable links and micro-adjustment ability in the clasp. Find a fit that works for you or put it on a strap.

If all else fails, work out to lose weight or eat bacon to gain weight until you achieve the perfect fit.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> Speaking of bracelets.
> Anyone ever tried one of these tools? Spring bar chopsticks!
> Bergeon makes a high dollar version.
> Could this be the trick to tight fitting end links?
> ...


Funny you mention it.



















I'll let you know.

PS - I expected the tool to be bigger.

PPS - That's what she said!

Boom.

Nailed it.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Great minds think alike. 
I was about to order two and throw one in the mail to you.

I'll await your most studious and well refined book report on the subject.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



CMA22inc said:


> Great minds think alike.
> I was about to order two and throw one in the mail to you.
> 
> I'll await your most studious and well refined book report on the subject.


Bro, this thing was $90, if I recall. I found them cheaper on Amazon/eBay, but only from overseas sellers with expected delivery sometime after the next ice age.

Bottom line, nice of you to think of me, but as cool a dude as you may be, I wouldn't throw $90 plus shipping at you. No need to throw away that much on me.

While we're on the subject, good tools are obscenely expensive. This bezel removal tool cost me two hundy.










All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> *Deep in the weeds warning*
> 
> I'm pretty sure my factory told me they couldn't make the "half" link on the DevilRay precisely 1/2 the size of the other links. I can't recall what they said they planned to do about it - make the half links some length that wasn't really half, or just do away with them completely.
> 
> ...


Alrighty then. Putting this topic to bed with the details which are probably only important to me at this point...

Hole to hole on the micro adjust = 3mm

Screw hole to screw hole on the "half" link = 5mm

So yes, removing the half link and moving the micro adjust 1 spot would make a 1mm difference in fit.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Bro, this thing was $90, if I recall. I found them cheaper on Amazon/eBay, but only from overseas sellers with expected delivery sometime after the next ice age.
> 
> Bottom line, nice of you to think of me, but as cool a dude as you may be, I wouldn't throw $90 plus shipping at you. No need to throw away that much on me.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Paid for in full with dues from the DDC.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rice and Gravy said:


> Alrighty then. Putting this topic to bed with the details which are probably only important to me at this point...
> 
> Hole to hole on the micro adjust = 3mm
> 
> ...


Only because I have a dark sense of humor, I'm hoping you come back and report that still didn't get the fit you were looking for. I secretly want to read the protracted discussion among watch geeks trying to come up with the "correct" methodology to avoid being outsmarted by an inanimate object.

Sorry. I made the mistake of reading a "micro-brands" thread elsewhere on the forum while I was pooping earlier today, and it's clearly affected my current view of the typical forum debate.










All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

docvail said:


> all else fails, work out to lose weight or eat bacon to gain weight until you achieve the perfect fit.


I know the whole losing weight is the healthy/adult thing to do, but man you stake it against bacon...........

The Information Super Highway made me do it.....


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rice and Gravy said:


> Alrighty then. Putting this topic to bed with the details which are probably only important to me at this point...
> 
> Hole to hole on the micro adjust = 3mm
> 
> ...


It's not just you. Trust me. There's a thread somewhere in the "expensive watch" section that lists every possible iteration of link, half-link, and adjustment hole measured to the micro millimeter to get the right size on a particular bracelet. IIRC, it had several dozen followers. I know I've moved stuff back and forth on a few watches several times trying to make it fit juuuuuuust right.

EDIT: Found it!

https://www.watchuseek.com/f20/seamaster-smp-bracelet-sizing-problem-solved-540981.html


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rice and Gravy said:


> Hole to hole on the micro adjust = 3mm
> 
> Screw hole to screw hole on the "half" link = 5mm
> 
> So yes, removing the half link and moving the micro adjust 1 spot would make a 1mm difference in fit.





docvail said:


> I secretly want to read the protracted discussion among watch geeks trying to come up with the "correct" methodology to avoid being outsmarted by an inanimate object.





dmjonez said:


> There's a thread somewhere in the "expensive watch" section that lists every possible iteration of link, half-link, and adjustment hole measured to the micro millimeter to get the right size on a particular bracelet. IIRC, it had several dozen followers. I know I've moved stuff back and forth on a few watches several times trying to make it fit juuuuuuust right.
> 
> EDIT: Found it!
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f20/seamaster-smp-bracelet-sizing-problem-solved-540981.html


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

Ha. Now that's taking it to the extreme, but useful information for some. There's a simple alternative to losing weight or gorging on bacon; if it doesn't fit, you must sell it [/JohnnyCochran]


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> *Deep in the weeds warning*
> 
> I'm pretty sure my factory told me they couldn't make the "half" link on the DevilRay precisely 1/2 the size of the other links. I can't recall what they said they planned to do about it - make the half links some length that wasn't really half, or just do away with them completely.
> 
> ...


This probably falls under your 1% rule but you may want double check the half link status. Anyone who followed the DR blog more closely than this thread may have half link expectations. Doesn't really matter to me since, as you said, the links are smallish already so sizing should be manageable. I just remember it because it was next to my second favorite part of the blog. Viva la twig wrist bracelets.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Photo day.




























All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Thanks for the update. Made me even happier about my choices :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just sayin'...

https://petapixel.com/2017/10/12/not-become-brand-ambassador-photographer/

"...here's what really happens if you have a total strop and start chucking your toys out of the pram. I may shame you on social media. The moment you cross that line, call me names, use abusive or aggressive language you lose any entitlement to anonymity anywhere. I won't put up with it. You came to us because you thought our products were worthy of you, so acting like a child and telling me how s**t we are, and how you could do ten times better elsewhere is really more of a reflection of you....So, here's my advice for those of you that are pre-disposed to meltdowns after rejection: Stop asking for free s**t and you'll save yourself a lot of pain."


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

LOL. I suffer from high blood pressure and no one seems to know why. I am a natural high strung person that hates to feel relaxed so I bet that has nothing to do with it. I am 46 so I am still fairly young.
I did not want to depend on medication so I lost 50lb, unfortunately it did nothing for it. I remember my Doctor telling me I was 145 over 95. I laughed at that number and told him that I have been upwards of 155/100 numerous times so I must be doing better. 
I try to find the good in everything and give people a chance now, too much bitterness in the world for me to add to it.



Pakz said:


> I feel your pain, my GP and a cardiologist just started me on that painful path : "your blood pressure gets too high at time... You should loose about 25 pounds!" Ah...
> 
> You're very right, that sucks. Big time.
> 
> Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

Over there devilray and cars, over here commander and chocolate.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Skillz...









































"OMG. I can't buy anything before I see real-world pics!"

Yes.

Yes you can.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

When you ship mine make sure I get the turquoise dial on the left.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

As someone mentioned the product usually exceeds the renders and it's definitely true here. They look awesome, especially the orange. Glad I didn't second guess myself and go for black. 

There's nothing wrong with black, but it was my 'safe choice' and I have way too many black watches. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> As someone mentioned the product usually exceeds the renders and it's definitely true here. They look awesome, especially the orange. Glad I didn't second guess myself and go for black.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with black, but it was my 'safe choice' and I have way too many black watches.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I actually see one little detail that was changed from our original designs, but we never noticed it until now, and it's not something I'm going to get my shorts in a knot over.

To some extent, I do understand and accept that people would prefer to see "real" photos of the product before buying, but that preference flies in the face of two inescapable facts:

1. Most of the marketing images we see are either very well-done, photo-realistic computer-generated illustrations anyway, or they're photographs which have been so heavily retouched that it would be a stretch to say they accurately reflect reality.

The big, mainstream brands are often showing you images which are idealized in the extreme, and not all that "realistic" when compared to reality.

As an example/true story - prior to our first photoshoot with this photographer, he asked me if we could shoot the watches without the crystals in them.

This image of a Citizen was taken with the crystal removed, and in order to get the crispness of detail at all depths, they had to layer multiple images taken of the watch with varying focal points:









That level of detail isn't something we can affordably achieve with the photography we're doing, but it can be done with 3D illustrations.

2. To whatever degree Rusty's renders fall short of looking "real", I continue to be amazed at how truly accurate they are in so many details, especially the ones that would seem to matter most. And where there's any difference between renders and reality, it's most often a function of external conditions, like lighting, rather than the limits of the program or what Rusty can do with it.

Understand that Rusty's illustrations and the actual parts are all made from the same 3D model. They SHOULD be damned close.

But Rusty has to tell the program what finishes to use on every surface, and the program more or less decides what that's going to look like in real life, so you get tiny differences in the circular brushing of the case, but still, he's nailing so many of the details, so precisely.

I'm sure I've said this before, but I'll say it again - when it comes to both Rusty's renders and photography, my goal is to post images which are most flattering to the product, but without being deceptive in any way.

We go to great pains to not only avoid altering the appearance for the better, but also to correct the appearance where necessary.

When I look at the side-by-side comparisons, there are few things that strike me.

1. Rusty's colors are precisely "correct", in that he's using the specific colors we're specifying for production. The photos have to be color-corrected sometimes, because lighting will make the colors appear lighter or darker than what they actually are. This is part of why we left the reflections on the crystals in these shots.

2. Rusty's renders are done in a "perfect" virtual environment. The 3D renders show what the colors and surfaces look like based on the materials and finishes we define, and the light source. In the photos, the watches unfortunately end up reflecting the environment around them, which includes the camera, the seams of the light-box, the lights, shades, etc. We sometimes have to remove reflections or fingerprints on them. With the illustrations, we rarely have to remove reflections, and we never have to remove prints.

None of which is to say the illustrations are more accurate overall. I'm just saying that they are more accurate in some ways, perhaps as many as the ways in which the photos are more accurate. And I'm certain that if we consider just how accurate they are, I think it's fair for me to suggest some people are being unreasonably skeptical about making a purchasing decision based just on our renders.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

The real like pics look incredible. What I think really makes the real pics better then the renditions, is the crystal. Love how it bends the indices and colours. 
I am so stoked to have been here to see this come to life.

Well done Sir!!


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> I actually see one little detail that was changed from our original designs, but we never noticed it until now, and it's not something I'm going to get my shorts in a knot over.


Is it the printed border around the date window? Do I win a free watch now? I'll be a supercalifragilisticexpialidocious brand ambassador with myfacepagespacebook.

Seriously though good job as usual. Is it spring yet?

p.s. I've met my monthly quota for busting your stones.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Is it the printed border around the date window?


No.



ryan92084 said:


> Do I win a free watch now? I'll be a supercalifragilisticexpialidocious brand ambassador with myfacepagespacebook.


No.



ryan92084 said:


> Seriously though good job as usual.


Thanks (on behalf of our photographer, I guess).



ryan92084 said:


> Is it spring yet?


No.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Is it the printed border around the date window?


We decided against the printed border around the date window before we went to prototyping. I had a misunderstanding about that item with my factory, which led me to asking Rusty to add it, when it should not have been there.

It's the minute markers on the gray chapter ring. They're white on all models, but Aaron originally illustrated them as black on the white-dial version, so Rusty illustrated them the same way.

My guess is the factory decided they should all be made the same way, and I just didn't notice the change between the illustrations we'd sent them (from Aaron), and the version they sent back.

But, it's a perfect example of some tiny little thing that gets overlooked, because it's a tiny little thing, and most people would take a long time to notice it, and few people would be bothered by it.

So why am I making myself nuts trying to make sure every tiny little thing is perfectly the way I wanted it if most people are just going to overlook it anyway?

It's not the only thing, either. I've seen it before, plenty of times - little design details, things I've said (like the frame around the date window - I'm 100% certain I mentioned that change here, and not that long ago).

It's not all that surprising to me that I get emails from people asking me questions that my website answers in multiple places.

I deliberately put something unusual in the text of the product pages for the DevilRay, just for fun, but no one noticed it - NOT. ONE. PERSON. I've since removed it, so don't bother going and looking for it. I'll be mighty surprised if anyone other than Aaron or Rusty knows what it said. I even had to point it out to them.

There are other little things in the photos that look different than reality - that chapter ring on the white dial looks really dark, but it's the same as all the others - but I'm not going to make myself or my photographer nuts trying to get it just right.

We've done that before, and I STILL get people who email me to ask what color this bezel or that dial is in real life, or claim we changed it from prototypes to production, and complain that our photos were misleading.


----------



## Qrocks1 (Oct 9, 2017)

exciting... devil ray fans sleeping well tonight!


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Ah, I recall you mentioning opting out of the applied frame around the date due to alignment issues or some such but not about the printed.



docvail said:


> Thanks (on behalf of our photographer, I guess).


To all involved. You, Aaron, Rusty, and your photographer.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

The blog for the development of the watch and the design decisions was a fantastic read. The pictures are great but reading about the thought that went into the design pushed d me right over the edge. This is my first time preordering a watch....so stoked to get it!


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> It's the minute markers on the gray chapter ring. They're white on all models, but Aaron originally illustrated them as black on the white-dial version, so Rusty illustrated them the same way.
> 
> My guess is the factory decided they should all be made the same way, and I just didn't notice the change between the illustrations we'd sent them (from Aaron), and the version they sent back.


Huh, well look at that.
I pre-ordered the WhiatsiEver dial. I like it with white marks. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Does it come with a matching purse? Doc?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> Does it come with a matching purse? Doc?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My main point with the renders is that I think we've proven, repeatedly now, that they are at least as good, if not better than the studio-shot photos when it comes to being an accurate representation of reality. 

To whatever degree the illustrations are inaccurate, the studio-shots are just as inaccurate, when you compare them to the even more "real-world" shots I take myself, using my mobile. 

I can count as many differences between reality and image with either, and on the whole, the differences don't seem to be the things that end up affecting people's decisions about whether or not and which versions to buy. 

And considering how often (read: ALWAYS) people say the reality looks even better than expected, and "pics don't do these justice", it seems a bit, I dunno, demanding of people to insist on seeing photos before ordering.

But, I'm an accommodating and reasonable guy. I'll still pay for photography to be done. We'll just be starting pre-orders before it is, and those who have the most faith in what we're doing will be rewarded with the largest savings. People who favor doubt over daring will have to adjust to the new reality.


----------



## Trower44 (Sep 10, 2017)

I bought the Ghost Rider based off the renders and was more than impressed with the watch in my hands. I see no problems with pre-orders being renders only, especially if it's easier and allows faster turnaround.



The Information Super Highway made me do it.....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Trower44 said:


> I bought the Ghost Rider based off the renders and was more than impressed with the watch in my hands. I see no problems with pre-orders being renders only, especially* if it's easier and allows faster turnaround.*


Is and does.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I'd prefer an abstract art interpretation made with jello and ketchup of all future watches to facilitate my purchasing decisions.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Aren't the minute hands shorter in the real life pics compared to the 3D renders?
Not that it bothers me in the least: they both look fantastic and I'm very happy to have ordered bluquoise...

Are we in March yet?

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pakz said:


> Aren't the minute hands shorter in the real life pics compared to the 3D renders?
> Not that it bothers me in the least: they both look fantastic and I'm very happy to have ordered bluquoise...
> 
> Are we in March yet?
> ...


Actually, yes.

If you spotted that (rather than remembering me mentioning it, which I can't say for sure I remember doing), you've got a really good eye.

If you just remember me mentioning it (which I probably did, because I say too much), then, yes, and, I dunno, you win nothing either way.

The hands we chose are from a handset supplier's catalog, but it turns out the minute hand needed to be custom-made, in order to get the clearance we needed between it and the crystal/minute track/depth gauge.

EDIT/PS - and, hypothetically, if I'd never mentioned it, and the watch we delivered had a minute hand that was just a wee bit shorter than what had been illustrated, how many people would notice it, AND be certain they weren't just imagining it, AND be upset enough about it to raise a stink?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> EDIT/PS - and, hypothetically, if I'd never mentioned it, and the watch we delivered had a minute hand that was just a wee bit shorter than what had been illustrated, how many people would notice it, AND be certain they weren't just imagining it, AND be upset enough about it to raise a stink?


Did not notice it and do not recall you mentioning it before. Fortunately I have "fill in the blank" letter for my states attorney always ready for these type of situation. I always cc Mr. Cochran as well just to be safe.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Did not notice it and do not recall you mentioning it before. Fortunately I have "fill in the blank" letter for my states attorney always ready for these type of situation. I always cc Mr. Cochran as well just to be safe.












I mean, we've got a 30 day returns policy.

Best case scenario, you save a lot of money when you order based on the render, then, later, the real-world pics confirm your wise decision.

Worst case scenario, you save a lot of money when you order based on the render, we ship the watches before you see real-world pics, but if you don't like it when you get it, you send it back for a refund.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

And another thing, about that dial being white or silver...

One of the reasons I say it's "white", not "silver" has to do with customs on shipments going outside the USA.

I labeled the white-dialed Acionna (which some people said looked silver) as "Acionna - _Silver_, White & Red", and even though we declared the watch as having no precious metal content, it still got held up by some countries' customs officials, because "Silver".

So...people who want to get OCD about the color can bite me. It's white, until you receive it, at which point, you can say it's Plutonium for all I care.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> I mean, we've got a 30 day returns policy.
> 
> Best case scenario, you save a lot of money when you order based on the render, then, later, the real-world pics confirm your wise decision.
> 
> Worst case scenario, you save a lot of money when you order based on the render, we ship the watches before you see real-world pics, but if you don't like it when you get it, you send it back for a refund.


Ok but how does all that logic help my coffee burned nether region???? :-|


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mplsabdullah said:


> Ok but how does all that logic help my coffee burned nether region???? :-|


Dude, you're definitely drinking from the wrong end of the cup.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

docvail said:


> Actually, yes.
> 
> If you spotted that (rather than remembering me mentioning it, which I can't say for sure I remember doing), you've got a really good eye.
> 
> ...


I don't remember you ever mentioning that. But... you did say "there's a difference" so I looked and tried to spot the difference. And that's the first one that I saw.

However, as I said, I'm not bothered in the least by the change. If anything I find it to be better balanced with the slightly shorter minutes hand. 
As long as the watch is good looking and has good specs for the price, I'll buy it. And as long as it works, I'll be happy with it. I have a long history of preorders with micro brands and I only returned one watch in the whole of my "pre-orders career" (5 years or more, I'd say) and that had nothing to do with "non conformity" to initial design, but the movement had some sort of problem and the watch didn't work at all. Short of that, I take my medicine if something is slightly different, and consider that I was lucky to have the ability to buy the watch at a discount and sometimes to have a say on how it's eventually looking.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pakz said:


> I don't remember you ever mentioning that. But... you did say "there's a difference" so I looked and tried to spot the difference. And that's the first one that I saw.
> 
> However, as I said, I'm not bothered in the least by the change. If anything I find it to be better balanced with the slightly shorter minutes hand.
> As long as the watch is good looking and has good specs for the price, I'll buy it. And as long as it works, I'll be happy with it. I have a long history of preorders with micro brands and I only returned one watch in the whole of my "pre-orders career" (5 years or more, I'd say) and that had nothing to do with "non conformity" to initial design, but the movement had some sort of problem and the watch didn't work at all. Short of that, I take my medicine if something is slightly different, and consider that I was lucky to have the ability to buy the watch at a discount and sometimes to have a say on how it's eventually looking.


I'm a little gun-shy about the perception that it's a "privilege" or someone was "lucky" to be able to pre-order something. I certainly don't want that to be the image people have of me or my business.

Ideally, every transaction should be one where both parties come away feeling that the bargain was a fair one. That's my primary goal - that people who buy from me are happy about it afterwards.

As the seller, I think it's my responsibility to make every reasonable effort to make sure the buyer has all the info they'd need to make an informed decision. When someone makes an informed decision, they should have the right set of expectations, and then it's just up to me to meet them.

But I also believe it's up to the buyer to make reasonable efforts to inform themselves (otherwise, they may have the wrong set of expectations, and the odds of me meeting them drop off a cliff).

If they don't make any effort to inform themselves, it's not fair to say the seller deceived them, nor is it fair to complain about the company's policies if they were given ample opportunity to read them before making a purchase.

Just as a hypothetical, yet all too familiar example - how many people actually read the terms and conditions before buying? Probably very few (I rarely, if ever do), even when we're required to acknowledge that we've read them prior to the transaction being completed.

Most of us lie, say we read it all when we didn't, because it's a long, dense bit of legal mumbo-jumbo. And then, if something goes wrong later, we say the company is hiding behind their terms.

This is why I made sure the shipping notification emails reiterate the relevant excerpts from our warranty/returns policies.

The ironic thing is that most companies only have the policies they do because not everyone is entirely reasonable. If everyone was always fair, there would be no need for any policies at all. The policies are in place to protect the company from the entirely unreasonable.

A lot of the complaints I get are from people who apparently didn't read the very clearly written policies before they ordered, but in some cases they didn't bother to read the specs on the product page, and in some extreme cases I think they didn't even look at the pictures.

When I get complaints from people who didn't look at the pictures, it makes me wonder why I spend so much on photography.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> And another thing, about that dial being white or silver...
> 
> One of the reasons I say it's "white", not "silver" has to do with customs on shipments going outside the USA.
> 
> ...


Ya great, now people will get hit at customs for White Gold, which is waaay more expensive than silver.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Ya great, now people will get hit at customs for White Gold, which is waaay more expensive than silver.


See, I know you're making a joke, but there's a part of me that thinks someone is going to read that, believe it, and go running around telling people I'm screwing them over by calling it white.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Sorry to interrupt, I was searching the answer to my question but can't find it. Not sure If it's in the other thread. On my näcken bracelet the little clasp with the nth logo, which secures the bigger one is a little loose and opens if if I bend my wrist (sometimes) - I remember there was a fix to this mentioned in one of the threads. Is it by applying pressure on the sides to make it..."narrow"? Excuse my lack of correct terminology. Don't want to wreck it by doing the wrong thing.


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Speaking of Nacken, I so wish I had come across this brand sooner. I was looking for reviews of some of the other NTH watches and read a great one on the Nacken. That would have been an insta-buy for me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Sorry to interrupt, I was searching the answer to my question but can't find it. Not sure If it's in the other thread. On my näcken bracelet the little clasp with the nth logo, which secures the bigger one is a little loose and opens if if I bend my wrist (sometimes) - I remember there was a fix to this mentioned in one of the threads. Is it by applying pressure on the sides to make it..."narrow"? Excuse my lack of correct terminology. Don't want to wreck it by doing the wrong thing.
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


Basically, yes. A little squeeze on either side of that flip-catch will create more friction between it and the two nubs it mates to.

It's held shut with friction. Enough pressure against it, it'll open. Enough friction in place, it'll stay shut until you pry it open.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I wanted to follow up on my previous post about the blog now that I'm on my computer and can actually type.

I am pretty sure I saw an NTH watch in the dive watch on a WRUW thread and put it into Google. That led me to Janis Trading Company. Of course all the Nackens and the other one I really like Amphiron or something like that, are all sold out. I checked the Devil Ray...initially I was intrigued by the turquoise model. I've been looking for a blue or turquoise faced dive watch for a while, and something about the DR caught my eye. I couldn't decide, though, whether I liked it for two reasons. First, I couldn't understand the dual bezel, with the 12-hour markers around it. Second, the colored "depth meter" made no sense to me. I didn't realize that was what it was for. In both cases, I figured that the designer was just trying to be clever and add superfluous stuff to make the watch "look interesting."

Regardless, the Google overlords were now in my computer. I check the surf multiple times a day on Surfline. For whatever reason, the Devil Ray popped up in their ads very frequently. And occasionally I'd click the ad and go look at the watch again, and see if I could get over the little color depth thing and the 12-hour bezel.

When it went up for pre-order, I didn't commit at the initial price. I didn't realize the prices were going to go up!

BUT, when I saw the picture on the wrist of the turquoise yesterday, I had to have it. I went back to the website, then found the blog, and then read about the thought process behind the design. Absolutely fantastic! Once I understood all the thought that went into this watch, it went from want to must have. Now the color depth meter isn't just a gimmick, it's damn awesome. Now I want it on my watch. I want it on my other watches!

So, a rather long way of saying that the effort that went into the blog got you at least one customer. I looked around last night to see if you did that for any of your other watches but couldn't find anything similar. I am really looking forward to this one...I'm new to the watch world, well, nice watch world, but this seems to be exactly what I have been searching for. I look forward to seeing what you come up with next...I'm a fan.

[/stalker mode off]


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> ...I looked around last night to see if you did that for any of your other watches but couldn't find anything similar. I am really looking forward to this one...I'm new to the watch world, well, nice watch world, but this seems to be exactly what I have been searching for. I look forward to seeing what you come up with next...I'm a fan.
> 
> [/stalker mode off]


That's the first time I documented the design process with that sort of detail.

There isn't always that much that goes into it, and if there is, I'm not sure I'd get into all of it again. For every person who finds it entertaining/interesting, there's a "Gabe", who thinks it's all just ludicrously self-aggrandizing and long-winded BS (I hope I quoted him correctly).

The irony here is only occurring to me now...I used to find it funny that so many WIS have "rules" which constrain their collecting, and would seem to be a hindrance to their enjoyment of the hobby. I used to poke fun at that, but the fact is I have my own rules when it comes to design, and one of the big, unbreakable rules is we never do anything superfluous, just to "make things more interesting".

Whatever it is we do, it's got a purpose, a function, a reason for being there. If it's not a "useful" feature, then it must at least "make sense" in some way, by relating back to the theme of the design.

Plus, to give the counselor his fee - Gabe's not entirely wrong (just entirely mean). I'm not sure my going into painful detail about the thought process behind every aspect of a design adds that much to everyone's enjoyment of it, at least not unless something about it rates above-average in cleverness, which, sadly, not all my thoughts do (ask my wife, she'll happily tell you about all the un-clever things I do and say).

For me, the story behind the DevilRay was interesting enough to tell mostly because it was the first model Aaron, Rusty and I all collaborated on which seemed more like fun than work, perhaps because it's more "original", less "homagey", which is probably also why it was interesting enough for people to read.

I mean - NTH Subs - they're based on Rolex/Tudor military diving watches. Everyone's familiar with them. End-o-story.

As stories go, that one is pretty bo - wait for it - ring!

It doesn't hurt that Aaron, Rusty and I will goof around during the process. No one wants to read about three miserable bastards who don't enjoy what they're doing.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

My Wife uses this technique to rid herself of hiccups. Bent over while drinking on the opposite side of the cup. Very funny to watch.



hwa said:


> Dude, you're definitely drinking from the wrong end of the cup.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I need to know....Shirts on or off?



docvail said:


> It doesn't hurt that Aaron, Rusty and I will goof around during the process. No one wants to read about three miserable bastards who don't enjoy what they're doing.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I need to know....Shirts on or off?


I always picture Aaron working in his undies, like Krieger from "Archer", because that's who he most resembles to me.










I like to picture Rusty slowly dissolving within some gator's bowels. I never considered what he was wearing, but I'm now picturing cutoff jean shorts and a Lynyrd Skynyrd concert tee.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> My Wife uses this technique to rid herself of hiccups. Bent over while drinking on the opposite side of the cup. Very funny to watch.





Ojibway Bob said:


> I need to know....Shirts on or off?


Funny, I had the same question about your first post.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

That is just sick bro!!



CDawson said:


> Funny, I had the same question about your first post.


----------



## pixel_pusher (Oct 15, 2012)

Sorry if this has already been answered, but is the Barracuda going to be available in different color combos in the future?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pixel_pusher said:


> Sorry if this has already been answered, but is the Barracuda going to be available in different color combos in the future?


I love existential questions.

If I made the Barracuda in a different color, would it still be a Barracuda, or would it be a different model altogether?

I didn't have any plans to make the Barracuda in a different color, though I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it. In my mind, the color is a big part of what makes the Barracuda what it is. If we made it, say, black or blue, then it's sort of like a Nacken, just with different markers.

If I wanted to make, say, a black Nacken Modern, but with gilt hands/markers instead of the white-framed hands and markers, would it make sense to also do a Barrcuda in black? Wouldn't they be so similar as to make one or the other redundant, and unneeded?

As it happens, I do have one more version of the Nacken planned, but it's not gilt/black, so that's something we could theoretically produce, but that's sort of a "Black Bay Black", then, which is sort of what we did with the Amphion Dark Gilt. I made our BBB part of the Amphion range, and with sword hands rather than snowflake hands for the precise reason that I didn't want to just make a "Black Bay Black knockoff", or whatever it would inevitably be callled.

Were you thinking sunburst blue with gilt hands/markers, sort of a "GoldenEye" kind of look? That might be interesting, and wouldn't be redundant compared to what we've already produced or were planning to produce.

We can make any dial color we want, but I'm not really enthused about straying too far from the basic black/blue/white colorways.

For bezels, we're pretty limited in color choices, because we're using PVD/DLC coated stainless steel for the inserts. The available colors are limited to gray-to-black, blue-to-slightly-darker-blue, about a dozen shades of gold, and some brownish-purples-to-purplish-browns. There are no greens (so no "Hulk" sub) and no reds (so no "Black Bay").

I've got 6, maybe 8 more Subs designs in development. I could certainly add one more, and a blue/gilt sounds interesting. I'll ask Aaron to whip one up, and see if there's a "Yellowtail" Barracuda to be made.

See...^^^this^^^, this is the stuff that happens behind the scenes while we're designing...lots of stuff like this right here.


----------



## pixel_pusher (Oct 15, 2012)

Existentially, whatever you christen a Barracuda is a Barracuda. 

I didn't have any preconceived color combos in mind. I'm humbled if my question mused a great idea, but it doesn't look like you have any shortage with great ideas for watches. Personally, I saw the Barracuda as a BB with the twist of a uniform color dial and bezel. I didn't equate the specific hue with being so intertwined with the namesake. The answer of "maybe" to my question is suitable enough, however I would add a +1 for a blue gilt version.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pixel_pusher said:


> Existentially, whatever you christen a Barracuda is a Barracuda.
> 
> I didn't have any preconceived color combos in mind. I'm humbled if my question mused a great idea, but it doesn't look like you have any shortage with great ideas for watches. Personally, I saw the Barracuda as a BB with the twist of a uniform color dial and bezel. I didn't equate the specific hue with being so intertwined with the namesake. The answer of "maybe" to my question is suitable enough, however I would add a +1 for a blue gilt version.


The Barracuda design is basically "Tudor BB had a baby with a Rolex Root beer sub". The name was just one from a list of submarine classes, nothing to do with its color.

I had previously been thinking about doing something blue/gilt, but never got far enough with that idea to settle on which dial markers and hands to use.

Doing a different colored Barracuda never really occurred to me, but the question seems perfectly timed and worded to make me put the two ideas together.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

I like the idea of the yellow tail. Sounds like a promising color combo.

I absolutely love my Santa Cruz... Wearing it right now actually, but the barracuda came out so nicely that it is in my want list too. Not in my budget at the moment, but maybe at some point I'll be able to pick one up. But I'm going to guess that Doc will reveal something new that calls to me right about the time I've siphoned away a small amount of cash in my watch fund. A lot like he did with the devil ray.

I'm very excited about the devil ray... Is it spring yet?!?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> ...snip
> 
> I deliberately put something unusual in the text of the product pages for the DevilRay, just for fun, but no one noticed it - NOT. ONE. PERSON. I've since removed it, so don't bother going and looking for it. I'll be mighty surprised if anyone other than Aaron or Rusty knows what it said. I even had to point it out to them.
> 
> snip...


Bah, as someone who read all your FAQs and pages pretty thoroughly this still bugs me. I hope that was your goal because then you've succeeded and I'll feel less bad about the wasted brain time.

All I can come up with is the updated dimensions/weight (not ridiculous), the removal of the batman/purse/whale anecdote, and slathered lume.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I always just assume "unusual" is the "usual" for Doc and it all just blends to the point that I don't notice anything "unusual". :think:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> I always just assume "unusual" is the "usual" for Doc and it all just blends to the point that I don't notice anything "unusual". :think:


This is unusual...




__ https://www.facebook.com/MBGWATCHES/posts/1787760014854462


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Bah, as someone who read all your FAQs and pages pretty thoroughly this still bugs me. I hope that was your goal because then you've succeeded and I'll feel less bad about the wasted brain time.
> 
> All I can come up with is the updated dimensions/weight (not ridiculous), the removal of the batman/purse/whale anecdote, and slathered lume.


It was the Batman/purse/whale thing.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> It was the Batman/purse/whale thing.


Ah, I liked that part, hah.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> This is unusual...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cancel my DevilRay. I knew something felt off with the design and it's clear now that it's not complete without an angry cartoonish pig on the dial.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Ah, I liked that part, hah.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Did you like the part where the ladyboys in Thailand knocked off my DevilRay design, made it an unusable GMT, and put a pig-face logo on it?

Because, I gotta say...I did NOT see that coming.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Did you like the part where the ladyboys in Thailand knocked off my DevilRay design, made it an unusable GMT, and put a pig-face logo on it?
> 
> Because, I gotta say...I did NOT see that coming.


No, their date window is in a worse spot. Although... it does have a printed border.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ryan92084 said:


> No, their date window is in a worse spot. Although... it does have a printed border.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


One "Gabe" per thread is enough, please.


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

this is the watch Jason Statham wants ! 
Brava Gente !


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Chris is just kicking himself for not thinking of the Angry Hawg logo first.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Sorry just spat tea on the keyboard. This company rip-off everyone, just checked them out. They actually make a Spork rip-off with a pig on the dial called the 'S-Pork.' You'd have to have a heart of stone not to admire the chutzpah.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

s.z said:


> this is the watch Jason Statham wants !
> Brava Gente !


"You want me to wear a pig watch? I was 'Handsome Rob'! It's going to sound like I'm hanging up now..."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Chris is just kicking himself for not thinking of the Angry Hawg logo first.


Kicking myself?

I'm already planning my revenge - a line of pork products using that exact same logo.

You remember that scene from Forest Gump, where Bubba lists all the ways to make shrimp?

I'm WAAAAAYYYYYYYYY more creative than Bubba.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> I actually see one little detail that was changed from our original designs, but we never noticed it until now, and it's not something I'm going to get my shorts in a knot over.
> 
> To some extent, I do understand and accept that people would prefer to see "real" photos of the product before buying, but that preference flies in the face of two inescapable facts:
> 
> ...


I used to try and shoot focus stacked photos. The software isn't cheap and the light and other prep is work. And in the end, the photo shot with my iPhone is more honest as a representation of what it will look like on the wrist.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> I used to try and shoot focus stacked photos. The software isn't cheap and the light and other prep is work. And in the end, the photo shot with my iPhone is more honest as a representation of what it will look like on the wrist.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You should receive the review samples today. I guess you'll see how accurate the photos and renders are then.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> You should receive the review samples today. I guess you'll see how accurate the photos and renders are then.


I predict, "accurate"

Any other answer is silly.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> I predict, "accurate"
> 
> Any other answer is silly.


Not as silly as I feel, not being first to market with the "Deviled Ham" watch.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Not as silly as I feel, not being first to market with the "Deviled Ham" watch.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Not all watches are easy to photograph well, trying to minimize crystal reflections, and still see detail in the dial. 
I have a MIDO i'm photographing with Geneva stripes in the dial. If I get it so you can see them, the dial looks gray. If I take it so you can see the dial is black (and it is), the stripes aren't visible to the camera, when they are to the eye.

That's the exception.

Do deviled ham watches ship well? I imagine they get soggy in handling.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> Did you like the part where the ladyboys in Thailand knocked off my DevilRay design, made it an unusable GMT, and put a pig-face logo on it?
> 
> Because, I gotta say...I did NOT see that coming.


My favorite part was looking at the Facebook link to find that it has already been identified as a knock off... And that comment was "liked" by the (I assume) company front man!

Shameless!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



vmarks said:


> Not all watches are easy to photograph well, trying to minimize crystal reflections, and still see detail in the dial.
> I have a MIDO i'm photographing with Geneva stripes in the dial. If I get it so you can see them, the dial looks gray. If I take it so you can see the dial is black (and it is), the stripes aren't visible to the camera, when they are to the eye.
> 
> That's the exception.
> ...


As HWA says, it's no bueno.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> My favorite part was looking at the Facebook link to find that it has already been identified as a knock off... And that comment was "liked" by the (I assume) company front man!
> 
> Shameless!
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk












All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> Cancel my DevilRay. I knew something felt off with the design and it's clear now that it's not complete without an angry cartoonish pig on the dial.


Sorry, Jas, I just saw this.

I'll go cancel your order right now...


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Sorry, Jas, I just saw this.
> 
> I'll go cancel your order right now...


:rodekaart


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Oh. My. Gawd...

This just keeps getting better...


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> One "Gabe" per thread is enough, please.


Is this when i report you for doxxing?

Seriously though they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery but they never saw that pig logo. You need to bring back sparky as a boar hound (aka great dane) now.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ryan92084 said:


> Is this when i report you for doxxing?
> 
> Seriously though they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery but they never saw that pig logo. You need to bring back sparky as a boar hound (aka great dane) now.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Sparky has other ideas...


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Sparky has other ideas...
> 
> View attachment 12590157


More than one way to stab a pig...

alternative caption: more than one reason to hunt a boar.


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

can I have some good peoples pork please ?!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ryan92084 said:


> More than one way to stab a pig...
> 
> alternative caption: more than one reason to hunt a boar.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Sparky has other ideas...
> 
> View attachment 12590157


That's how they'll produce their Lew & Huey rip-off...

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

This forum is anything butt boaring...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Rhorya said:


> This forum is anything butt boaring...
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Spoken like a true-boar-n watch enthusiast

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> Oh. My. Gawd...
> 
> This just keeps getting better...
> 
> View attachment 12590153


Just as long as it's not "long pork".

For those who don't know, long pork is what the cannibals called the meat made of human flesh...

Man these guys (this guy?) are (is) really something else! Is that the Wilbur Ray? He's some pig! Where is Charlotte spinning catch phrases stolen from news paper clippings?... Oh wait... They already stole the watch design...

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> This forum is anything butt boaring...
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro













Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Spoken like a true-boar-n watch enthusiast
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.













kendalw3 said:


> Just as long as it's not "long pork".
> 
> For those who don't know, long pork is what the cannibals called the meat made of human flesh...
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


When I told them all to "bite me", this wasn't what I had in mind.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DevilRay is the other other white meat.










All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Spirit of the Watch (Jun 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> This is unusual...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, garbage like this is why I stay away from Chinese knockoffers...... er, "brands."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Spirit of the Watch said:


> Lol, garbage like this is why I stay away from Chinese knockoffers...... er, "brands."


These guys are Thai.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> These guys are Thai.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


So, you mean, they're rather knock-outers than knockoffers?

Sorry, I'm on a run, as it seems...

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Spirit of the Watch (Jun 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> These guys are Thai.
> 
> All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


Yeah, all the same in regards to watch brands from these places (w/ few exceptions).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Spirit of the Watch said:


> Yeah, all the same in regards to watch brands from these places (w/ few exceptions).


Uhm..."these places"?

Do you mean Asia?

Off the top of my head, I can think of a number of micro-brands based in Asia which are quite respectable, and I respect them a lot. I'm fairly friendly with Naoki Tsukuno from Gruppo Gamma in Singapore, just to name one (and it looks like they copied his case design here).

This sort of thing can originate anywhere. I'm leery of associating it too closely with Asia, but giving a pass to anyone from somewhere else. There are brands in Europe and America with just as little shame. Obvious imitation runs rampant within the luxury segment.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## Spirit of the Watch (Jun 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Uhm..."these places"?
> 
> Do you mean Asia?
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying.... and that's fair. However, a simple google or amazon search shows' _most_ of this comes from China and then poor Asian countries.

When I go to Europe, I expect a certain level of order that I simply don't expect elsewhere. I would much rather be in a bind (if I had to) in the U.K. than China, Thailand, Myanmar, etc.

China simply doesn't believe in copyright laws for non-Chinese products. 

I watch this channel quite a bit, and I think it shows' that they encourage this type of practice if anything.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Spirit of the Watch said:


> I get what you're saying.... and that's fair. However, a simple google or amazon search shows' _most_ of this comes from China and then poor Asian countries.
> 
> When I go to Europe, I expect a certain level of order that I simply don't expect elsewhere. I would much rather be in a bind (if I had to) in the U.K. than China, Thailand, Myanmar, etc.
> 
> ...


There is no IP protection when it comes to the design *OF* a watch (that is, how the watch LOOKS), at least not here in the USA, and I'm unaware of it if there's been a successful case involving some company getting any legal judgment against any other company for copying a design, anywhere in the world.

In the USA, you could only patent the design *FOR* a watch (that is, how it works, and only if it was a new design involving new "art").

Had that debate too many times. Trust me, I'm right on the above, notwithstanding what any internet wannabe attorneys say.

You can trademark your brand, and that's about it. You can't stop anyone anywhere from copying your design (how it looks) once it's out there.

Not for nothing, but most of "it" probably comes from Asia because that's where most manufacturing is done, for most industries. As a percentage of manufacturing volume, I guarantee there's just as much shameless imitation and other dubious acts being perpetrated in Europe and the USA. I'd rather not name and shame, but there's no shortage of charlatans on either side of the Atlantic.

The fact that the west appears more orderly doesn't make westerners any more civil or honest in their business practices.

All new, extra strength Tapatalk, for restoring shine and that new talk smell.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> There is no IP protection when it comes to the design *OF* a watch (that is, how the watch LOOKS), at least not here in the USA, and _*I'm unaware of it if there's been a successful case involving some company getting any legal judgment against any other company for copying a design, anywhere in the world.*_
> 
> In the USA, you could only patent the design *FOR* a watch (that is, how it works, and only if it was a new design involving new "art").
> 
> ...


Actually, I should clarify that part in bold.

There is no IP protection for watch designs (how they LOOK) in the USA. You can only patent the design FOR a watch (how it WORKS), and only if it's new art.

However, there actually has been a successful court case involving one company suing another for copying their design - Audemars Piguet sued Swiss Legend for knocking off the Royal Oak, and won.

But - and this is a BIG "but" - that was NOT an IP infringement case.

It was a "trade dress" case, in which AP alleged unfair competitive practices.

In broad strokes, AP's attorneys successfully argued that the design for the Royal Oak had become essentially synonymous with the AP brand, and that the design had so many characteristic styling cues combined in such a way that it was instantly recognizable as an APRO, and by making something too visually similar, Swiss Legend could confuse the buying public, and thereby damage AP's reputation in the market.

Swiss Legend appealed, and unless I'm mistaken, they lost that appeal, and now owe AP millions, which I think is a large reason why the various business entities tied to Swiss Legend have had some troubles of late.

It's actually a pretty genius argument and way around the IP laws, which don't offer any design protection.

The challenge is that AP is a deep-pocketed company, able to hire and pay big-shot attorneys to bring suit in an American court against a company like Swiss Legend, based in the USA, also with deep pockets, and actually have a point in doing it.

_It's quite different than, say, Aevig, a small, boot-strapped brand based in the Netherlands, bring suit against "Seagull USA", a dodgy, fly-by-night entity of unknown ownership and place of domicile, likely with few assets beyond a desk, a phone, a computer, and a fax machine.

It's quite different than me, a short-on-patience, short-on-cash business owner in the USA trying to bring suit against these Pigwatch guys in Thailand.

In both of the latter scenarios, neither Aevig nor my company is likely to win an argument that a design we've yet to deliver has become synonymous with our brand name, and that Seagull USA or Pigwatch is confusing the public by copying a design few people have seen from a brand few people have ever heard of._

The above italicized section in blue relates back to two separate instances of Seagull USA stealing pre-production designs from Chip Yuen / Aevig, and the preposterous arguments people attempted to make about it all at the time of either incident.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Makes sense. Just don't make anything rectangular with rounded corners or apple might come after you.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

kendalw3 said:


> Just as long as it's not "long pork".
> 
> For those who don't know, long pork is what the cannibals called the meat made of human flesh...
> 
> ...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Once again, I really don’t read this forum to learn about watches. It’s all this other stuff


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

And apparently, my phone thought this was important enough for me to say it twice. So it double posted. So I’m changing it to this


----------



## iceman66 (Feb 24, 2013)

docvail said:


> Just sayin'...
> 
> https://petapixel.com/2017/10/12/not-become-brand-ambassador-photographer/
> 
> "...here's what really happens if you have a total strop and start chucking your toys out of the pram. I may shame you on social media. The moment you cross that line, call me names, use abusive or aggressive language you lose any entitlement to anonymity anywhere. I won't put up with it. You came to us because you thought our products were worthy of you, so acting like a child and telling me how s**t we are, and how you could do ten times better elsewhere is really more of a reflection of you....So, here's my advice for those of you that are pre-disposed to meltdowns after rejection: Stop asking for free s**t and you'll save yourself a lot of pain."


I wanna have his babies


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

iceman66 said:


> I wanna have his babies


Like, on a long roll, with some melted cheese and some ketchup, amirite?

Mmmmmm....long pork babies.


----------



## 59yukon01 (Aug 27, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Sparky has other ideas...
> 
> View attachment 12590157


Come on. After all everyone loves bacon.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I want you to squeal...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

The amazing thing about the honest pig watch is that he is charging more than Doc does for the real thing. 

I remember watching a couple of guys putting together Panerai fakes up in MBK, in Bangkok... I wonder if it was the same group.


----------



## t_mac86 (Jun 1, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> There is no IP protection when it comes to the design *OF* a watch (that is, how the watch LOOKS), at least not here in the USA, and I'm unaware of it if there's been a successful case involving some company getting any legal judgment against any other company for copying a design, anywhere in the world.
> 
> In the USA, you could only patent the design *FOR* a watch (that is, how it works, and only if it was a new design involving new "art").
> 
> ...


Another good exception to this is the Panerai Luminor case design and specifically their trademarked crown-guard. As I understand, after the patent for the crown-guard expired, Panerai (post-Vendome) managed to trademark its 2d design (basically its flat shape) by arguing that it is part of the uniqueness of the brand and allows Panerai to separate themselves from the competition. Now if anyone would like to design a, say, trapezoidal/rectangular crown-guard, they would be allowed to do so, as long as it is different enough from the outline of Panerais.

Again, deep-pocketed luxury giant bends rules to its will.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

It wouldn't be kosher for me to talk about pigs, so here's a picture of a watch.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

vmarks said:


> It wouldn't be kosher for me to talk about pigs, so here's a picture of a watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


SWEET!!! Nice shot!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> The amazing thing about the honest pig watch is that he is charging more than Doc does for the real thing.
> 
> I remember watching a couple of guys putting together Panerai fakes up in MBK, in Bangkok... I wonder if it was the same group.


Really? I was't able to find their website, or the price on this one, but all kidding about the pig logo and the horrible execution on their knockoff aside, these MBG guys are no joke. All their prices are tens of thousands of Baht, which converts into the high hundreds of dollars.

I took a look at their store on FB. They made a titanium-cased SPORK knockoff (the "S-PORK"), with 300m WR and a Seiko NH35, and charged ~$665 for it. It's sold out. I have no idea how many they made, but if it was 300 pieces, that's not chump change. They also made a bronze version.

They make a knockoff of the new MarineMaster 300, for $935. They had a PAM knockoff listed for $845, and IT'S sold out too.

They've got a bunch of PAM and Seiko knockoff-ish stuff, all for $500-$1000, and it's all sold out.

It looks like they've only been in business two years, but it appears that they're absolutely killing it. They've been producing new models at a breakneck speed, and it looks like they all sell out very quickly.

I can't figure it out, unless those prices are BS, and they're raising the list prices after a model sells out (something I've seen done), or they're only producing in smaller volumes, like 100 pieces, but it's hard to find factories that will produce in such small numbers. Maybe it's easier in Thailand. I'm now discovering that they've got a fairly robust domestic watch production industry there, including their own trade magazine.

Assuming they're making 300 pieces of each model, it's a challenge for most micros to sell 300 pieces of anything in less than a year. These guys appear to be turning their inventory over much more quickly than that.

I'm honestly not upset about the DevilRay knockoff, especially since it's so poorly executed. But the fact that they've been killing it with knockoffs/fakes of big brands and out of production models makes it even more shady for them to knockoff a design from a micro-brand before that brand has even had a chance to deliver it, as I imagine they're passing it off as their own design, rather than an "homage".

They got protos within weeks of me having mine, which means they must have decided to copy my design as soon as I revealed it.

When someone posted their bronze S-PORK in the micro-brands group on Facebook, there was obvious interest in it. I wasn't going to buy it, but even I was interested in knowing about it.

But it looks like they're going to catch some heat for this. They took down Aaron's comment, but three more people have commented since then. People are reporting their FB page, and giving them 1-star reviews. If they post that watch to any of the big groups I belong to, like Diver's Watches or Microbrands, they're going to get blasted.

OMG - I just looked at their hashtag on Instagram. They've got a fake (I think it's fake) Panerai, including the Panerai name on the dial, but with the pig-face logo under it. I can't post the pic, because forum rules prohibit posting fakes, but for anyone interested, here's a link to the hashtag, and the specific image...

Tag - https://www.instagram.com/explore/tags/maialebravagente/

Image -

__
http://instagr.am/p/BYoK_Q3B5qU/


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

It looks like he is using a Chinese 6497 for the movement of the fake Pam. He just puts his mark on part of it... but the prices he's charging? I also got the pricing from the FB Shop... 
Who is buying his watches is all I want to know. (I have a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell them...)


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Traffic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> It looks like he is using a Chinese 6497 for the movement of the fake Pam. He just puts his mark on part of it... but the prices he's charging? I also got the pricing from the FB Shop...
> Who is buying his watches is all I want to know. (I have a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell them...)


What are they charging for the DR knockoff?

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Btw... he sold 50 of the MM knock-offs, 100 of the s-pork. His numbers are in the comments of his model designs. His biggest seller is the 111 camo faced watches. Big money for watches made with less than $100 in parts off ebay.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> Btw... he sold 50 of the MM knock-offs, 100 of the s-pork. His numbers are in the comments of his model designs. His biggest seller is the 111 camo faced watches. Big money for watches made with less than $100 in parts off ebay.


It all makes a lot more sense if he's producing/selling 50-100 pieces each. I could double all my prices if I was only making that many.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Is that a monster redial or is that a homage in that feed? Can you homage a monster and it be at all worth it?


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Looks like the DR is still a prototype.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> Is that a monster redial or is that a homage in that feed? Can you homage a monster and it be at all worth it?


Don't know, and don't know.

I found an interview the brand owner did with the Thai industry magazine, which Google translated for me. Hard to say how accurate the translation was or how much BS was in the original, but it seemed like there was discussion of modding existing pieces, probably Seikos, with their own dials and such.

They definitely made/make their own knockoff models, but it is hard to figure out why they'd knockoff the Monster.

Then again, Invicta does stuff like that. They I knocked off the Monster and the Citizen Nighthawk, so who knows?


macosie said:


> Looks like the DR is still a prototype.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


Yes, just revealed in the last day or two.

The more I look at it, the worse it gets. All the details are wrong in some way. I'm embarrassed for them.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

People there must REALLY want that pig thing on the dial. On shirts as well apparently.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Hey do those Chinese watch guys have any of the Riccardos?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Keeper of Time said:


> Hey do those Chinese watch guys have any of the Riccardos?


Thai* watch guys.


----------



## scooter1 (Jun 8, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> There is no IP protection when it comes to the design *OF* a watch (that is, how the watch LOOKS), at least not here in the USA, and I'm unaware of it if there's been a successful case involving some company getting any legal judgment against any other company for copying a design, anywhere in the world.
> 
> In the USA, you could only patent the design *FOR* a watch (that is, how it works, and only if it was a new design involving new "art").
> 
> ...


I've seen entire large shipments stopped at the border by Customs because the contents looked to much like a trademarked product. In particular, one company I know worked with a Chinese company to produce an inexpensive digital multimeter. Because of the Colorway, they ended up having to destroy the shipment. https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1428. Of course, even if you have legitimate IP, that doesn't necessarily make it worth your time and money to defend it -- that's between you, your business plan, your lawyer, ....


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

All those pork product sales numbers could themselves be fake, no? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



scooter1 said:


> I've seen entire large shipments stopped at the border by Customs because the contents looked to much like a trademarked product. In particular, one company I know worked with a Chinese company to produce an inexpensive digital multimeter. Because of the Colorway, they ended up having to destroy the shipment. https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1428. Of course, even if you have legitimate IP, that doesn't necessarily make it worth your time and money to defend it -- that's between you, your business plan, your lawyer, ....


Let me start by saying I don't know if you're agreeing with my post that you quoted, and adding something anecdotal, or disagreeing with it, and providing a contrary example. I don't know, because I'm not sure how the example relates back to my post.

There's trademark protection - which is protecting the branding, to include the brand name and brand marks. That's one form of intellectual property, and one way to protect it.

You didn't mention copyrights, but others have, within this context. They generally have to do with printed or recorded work, so to the extent someone would bring up "copyrights" within the context of a discussion about one watch company copying the design of another, they're at least using the wrong terminology.

The big one that people tend to argue over is patent protection, and it seems to me that the reason people argue over it is because most people largely don't understand it.

Patents are broadly meant to protect new inventions, such as a new mechanism for measuring the passing of time, but because the word "design" gets used within patent law (in this context, meaning a new invention or new "art"), many people mistakenly believe patents could be applied to what we think of as a watch "design", meaning the aesthetic appearance of a device for telling time. But without some new invention or new "art" being involved in that aesthetic appearance, patents would not apply at all, at least not in the USA.

Of course there are shipments which get stopped by customs agents because of suspected brand piracy. That's part of their job.

As hard as it may be for many people to believe, the countries of export also have customs agents who stop exports for the same reason. I had to provide documentation to my old factory, in mainland China, which authorized them to export goods using my trademarked brand, even though I hadn't even gotten trademark registration for that brand in China yet.

A quick scan of the article found at that link gave me the understanding that the products were stopped not because they appeared to be a copied design (and thus a patent infringement), but because the color of the product was the same color used by another brand in their trademarked logo for that same type of product (and thus suspected TM infringement).

I'm not an attorney, so it's not really worth my time trying to understand the rightness or wrongness of the customs agents' actions in that one specific scenario, and without reading the article word-for-word, the gist of it seemed to be that the author felt the agents were mistaken, which is fair enough, and without knowing more nor being an IP attorney, I'm inclined to agree that the agents were mistaken.

I'm just a guy who owns a watch brand, and beyond the relevant implications for the product I sell, watches, I don't give a $h1t about any of this $h1t.

Arguing about it all when it pertains to watches is boring and tiresome for me. I'll be damned if I'll even bother to think about how it all pertains to other products, much less argue with anyone about how it relates to other products. I'm sorry, but I just don't care.

This is the internet. People are obviously free to say and think whatever they want, to include believing things that are wrong, and not believing things that are right. I pray no one takes offense if I refuse to argue with them about it either way.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> All those pork product sales numbers could themselves be fake, no?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Any number put out by any business could be fake.

I just try to look at things logically.

If a business has something to sell, they will generally make it available to be purchased. I'm aware that some will make items unavailable, "sold out", as a tactic to increase interest by faking a larger level of demand, but that's an expensive tactic, as it requires the business to sit on inventory, rather than sell it, while demand builds. Time is money, and a piece of inventory sold today is more valuable than that same piece sold next year, all other things being equal.

The typical suppliers in the industry, whether they're in Switzerland or China, all want minimum order quantities in the hundreds. When you make fewer pieces, you typically pay more, or you get lower quality. I haven't seen anyone able to get fewer pieces of the same quality for the same cost.

If it was possible to go to Thailand instead, and get 50-100 pieces made, with the same quality, at the same or even a lower price, I'd think a lot more people would be doing it.

So, knowing all that, my thinking is they're either producing in smaller quantities, with lower quality or at a higher price, and the 50-100 numbers aren't fake, or, they're producing in higher quantities, say, 300 pieces, and they've either sold out, but are lying about the numbers, which doesn't make a lot of sense, or they're holding back inventory AND lying, in order to make it seem like they're selling out quickly, which helps them sell for a higher price, but that's both a very sophisticated and very risky strategy for some pig-faced, no-name brand selling knockoffs in Thailand.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

First day wearing the Spectre II.










Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I had to say something on their Pam pic....



docvail said:


> Really? I was't able to find their website, or the price on this one, but all kidding about the pig logo and the horrible execution on their knockoff aside, these MBG guys are no joke. All their prices are tens of thousands of Baht, which converts into the high hundreds of dollars.
> 
> I took a look at their store on FB. They made a titanium-cased SPORK knockoff (the "S-PORK"), with 300m WR and a Seiko NH35, and charged ~$665 for it. It's sold out. I have no idea how many they made, but if it was 300 pieces, that's not chump change. They also made a bronze version.
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ojibway Bob said:


> I had to say something on their Pam pic....


Whenever I say anything about anything any competitor does, there's usually a point at which I end up regretting it.

They have 130 followers on instagram.

I mean, I've got almost 16,000. Plus almost 10k on FB, 10k on my email mailing list, and last I looked, something like 1500 followers on Twitter, which I rarely even use. These pig-king guys are not going to have any impact on me or my business.

Copying the DevilRay design was a silly thing for them to do, and a $h1tty move, but their version looks terrible, they're not a threat, in any way, and I swear to God, the entire episode has been more amusing than annoying to me, and hopefully to everyone else.

If we got 2 days of conversation fodder and a few laughs from it, good.

What I don't want is this somehow turning into a story that gets told online, about an egomaniacal micro-brand owner who can't stand a little competition, and sets his fanboys loose to wage internet troll war on some under-powered, third-world knockoff shop that mostly caters to some small club of niche buyers in an out of the way part of the world.

Really, I'm not angry, not upset at all. Like so many things that happen as my business grows, it's often surprising to me when they happen, because I don't see myself or my business as being big enough to warrant the attention or controversy which somehow seems to swirl around us sometimes.

It never occurred to me that some brand I never heard of would knock off the DevilRay, but it just reinforces that I should return to my earlier methods of keeping a lid on things until they're ready for public consumption (as well as reinforces the wisdom of not spending 5 months dicking around with prototypes, the way we've been doing - I could be delivering the DevilRay right now, instead of showing prototypes and having these guys hot on my heels with their version).

True story - I did a pseudo-interview earlier today. One of the interviewers said something like, "everyone knows Janis", and I was like, "Whassat now? Everyone?" That would be awesome if it was true, because it doesn't feel that way to me. From the seat I'm sitting in, this still feels like a very small traveling circus.

"Chris, can you tell us what you're working on for the future? How about a ______?"

No, I can't, and I'd rather you didn't ask me, as this scenario is the exact reason why.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I did nothing to implicate anyone.....I only said "lol...really" because if I would have seen it anywhere I would have said exactly that.

I got you Hommie!!!

On a side note... I take offense to this attack of pigs. This Marvel of a logo is a Boar..I HATES ME BOARS!!!


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

I dunno doc they do have one thing you don't. Little figurines! When can we see little sparky/cerberi for sale?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Those pig watch guys can't do this







b-)


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

I had to laugh about that panerai slc knockoff with the pig instead of the "pig" scuba. They took it seriously. A serious 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## sobwanhoser (Feb 8, 2014)

Keeper of Time said:


> Hey do those Chinese watch guys have any of the Riccardos?


...and steam starts to exit from Doc's ears :-d


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Whenever I say anything about anything any competitor does, there's usually a point at which I end up regretting it.
> 
> They have 130 followers on instagram.
> 
> ...


Hey man, we can go to the burrito stand AND the burger stand!

You don't know it, but I look to you as one of the big microbrand successes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



vmarks said:


> Hey man, we can go to the burrito stand AND the burger stand!
> 
> You don't know it, but I look to you as one of the big microbrand successes.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I understand people see me as a microbrand "success".

To me, it's dangerous to think that way. I work better when I feel like the scrappy underdog. A little chip on the shoulder can be a good motivator.

"Success" is like crossing some sort of finish line, but life isn't over until you die, and so I'll leave it to other people to figure out if I was successful after I'm dead. Until then, the idea of considering my own success is like the joke about the guy falling from a tall building, yelling "so far, so good" as he passes each floor.

I'd rather just look at specific goals and benchmarks, things which we can objectively say were accomplished, or were not accomplished. String together enough accomplishments, success will take care of itself.

This is still a very small business, plugging away in relative obscurity. I'm happy it's profitable enough to keep going. Think about how many brands must be struggling, if they don't seem to be doing as well by comparison, and consider that when the next argument about micro-brand pricing breaks out online, here or elsewhere.

If I'm at all "successful", then it should be seen as validation of a lot of things I've said about this business, things a lot of people said were wrong.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I understand people see me as a microbrand "success".
> 
> To me, it's dangerous to think that way. I work better when I feel like the scrappy underdog. A little chip on the shoulder can be a good motivator.
> 
> ...


Success can fade as quick as it comes. no resting. I'm just happy you're able to keep doing it profitably.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

"It's a ride, it's just a ride....." 

Bill Hicks R.I.P.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*


----------



## Spirit of the Watch (Jun 29, 2015)

Business is an infinite game, not finite. 

Look at the gigantic success of Sears, Enron, Lehman Brothers, etc. Successful, accomplished, but they forgot what game they were playing ;-)

I have to agree w/ Docvail, nothing good comes from resting and saying I made it, I'm successful, time to wine and dine........... it's only a matter of time till the competition feasts upon you.


----------



## John Price (Feb 21, 2011)

What I find interesting (maybe in a rather odd way) is that the pig logo on those MBG watches looks like a bad knockoff the Hampsten Cycles (bike company and related bike touring company) Cinghiale (Italiain for wild boar) logo. I wonder if that's where they got that from.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> "Chris, can you tell us what you're working on for the future? How about a ______?"


Sure: Watches. Next question.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Dude.

I log on every few days to see if there are any updated DR pics. Tonight I check in and stumble into the middle of the great WUS Thai pork roast of 2017. I had to scan back through 8 pages of what mainly seems to be pig jokes and repetitive full-length Docvail quotes just to see what the hell everyone's talking about. 

4 pages back, I found a reference to the company's name, but these guys don't even come up in a google search (at least not the first page).

Probably. Not. A threat.

Doc, please post more pics (of the real thing). Everyone else, go have a beer and leave the piggies alone.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

It's flattering somebody thinks your prototype is awesome enough to want to borrow elements of it...before it's made you a single dollar or sold a single watch.

Of course I'm not sitting in your shoes. But to me this is a non-issue. Funny reading though.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It's a podcast!

https://www.wristwatchreview.com/2017/10/20/hourtime-show-chris-vail-of-janistrading-nth-lew-huey/


----------



## Thirdgenbird (Feb 21, 2015)

John Price said:


> What I find interesting (maybe in a rather odd way) is that the pig logo on those MBG watches looks like a bad knockoff the Hampsten Cycles (bike company and related bike touring company) Cinghiale (Italiain for wild boar) logo. I wonder if that's where they got that from.


I want mine with super record mechanical, lightweights, and ee brakes.


----------



## Zundfolge (Oct 2, 2011)

Lume. Just because lume is cool.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Sooo is the Porkapocalypse over?


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

Nacken went to Hungary ... we had good time together


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just as an FYI / you heard it here first...

I just added one Oberon no-date and two Amphion Moderns to the website (one with date, one no-date).

Oberon

Amphion - Modern

Get 'em while they last.


----------



## ErikP (Jan 27, 2011)

Doc, 

Just came across this thread and learned about NTH watches. They look really cool and rugged.

One question on the Devil Ray - The depth gauge, which I love, shows red to 10, orange to 15 and yellow to 20, after which is all blue. Your blog indicates that the colors disappear at red-5, orange 20, yellow- 50. Why didn't you make the colors match the minute numbers? I mean, you could memorize the relevant depths but wouldn't it be better to have the meters correspond to the minute numbers? Or am I not understanding? Thanks


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ErikP said:


> Doc,
> 
> Just came across this thread and learned about NTH watches. They look really cool and rugged.
> 
> One question on the Devil Ray - The depth gauge, which I love, shows red to 10, orange to 15 and yellow to 20, after which is all blue. Your blog indicates that the colors disappear at red-5, orange 20, yellow- 50. Why didn't you make the colors match the minute numbers? I mean, you could memorize the relevant depths but wouldn't it be better to have the meters correspond to the minute numbers? Or am I not understanding? Thanks


Because Turquoise disappears at 200m, and there's no 200 mark on a clock face.

Don't think about it too deeply.

We like it the way we did it.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Just as an FYI / you heard it here first...
> 
> I just added one Oberon no-date and two Amphion Moderns to the website (one with date, one no-date).
> 
> ...


Chris you are killing me! I really wanted a modern date Amphion but could never find one second hand so I went for the blue.

Good luck to whomever buys them as they are lovely.










Saying that, I do love the blue!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

So happy to have finally found one of these!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Commander rocks









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Mil6161 said:


> Commander rocks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It do!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

$125 per image for professional photos, $3500 total. Just another day in the glamorous life of a microbrand owner.










Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

That's nothing compared to Sparky's gold plated dog bowl.


----------



## Skeptical (Sep 14, 2012)

docvail said:


> $125 per image for professional photos, $3500 total. Just another day in the glamorous life of a microbrand owner.


You could teach Seiko a thing or two.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Skeptical said:


> You could teach Seiko a thing or two.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sure I could teach a lot of companies a thing or two.

When they agree to my $500/hour consulting fee ($50k minimum engagement), I'll be happy to school 'em.

They know how to reach me.


----------



## 59yukon01 (Aug 27, 2014)

A hipster social media influencer carrying a murse could have posted cell pics for a lot less.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

59yukon01 said:


> A hipster social media influencer carrying a murse could have posted cell pics for a lot less.












Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)




----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

That mustache wax isn't going to buy itself, you know...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Stuff...

News from Janis Trading Company[UNIQID]


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I freaking love the lume shots on the Spectre II...


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Make an "Orion" version with a P-3 silhouette, and I'll be the first in line. And I'll bring friends.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Make an "Orion" version with a P-3 silhouette, and I'll be the first in line. And I'll bring friends.


Get 299 of your friends together, I'll make whatever you want.

Until then, I don't do a lot of special requests.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ Fair enough, LOL.


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

OMG!
I haven't been online too much after being battered by 2 hurricanes.
Haven't looked at many pictures (if there are any), nor any information other than the webpage. But man...
I was looking at the Sinn 240... I'm not looking at it anymore (although Sinn is probably one of my faves, this Spectre II... Jeebus!!!)
Ordered.
Doc, I hate you and I love you! Definitely another winner!

Saludos!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gelocks said:


> OMG!
> I haven't been online too much after being battered by 2 hurricanes.
> Haven't looked at many pictures (if there are any), nor any information other than the webpage. But man...
> I was looking at the Sinn 240... I'm not looking at it anymore (although Sinn is probably one of my faves, this Spectre II... Jeebus!!!)
> ...


Thanks for your order, Angel. Please stay safe, my friend.


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> Thanks for your order, Angel. Please stay safe, my friend.


Thank you and will do!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

First review of the NTH DevilRay is up.

http://www.thetimebum.com/2017/10/nth-devil-ray.html


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> First review of the NTH DevilRay is up.
> 
> NTH Devil Ray | The Time Bum


"For the record, the "white" is silver." Better hope custom guys don't read time bum.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Looks great Vail.


----------



## Amuthini (Sep 15, 2011)

docvail said:


> I freaking love the lume shots on the Spectre II...
> 
> View attachment 12604451


Have you done away with the dog for the L&H line?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Amuthini said:


> Have you done away with the dog for the L&H line?


He been promoted from mascot to CEO


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Amuthini said:


> Have you done away with the dog for the L&H line?


Nope.


----------



## dramanet (Jul 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> First review of the NTH DevilRay is up.
> 
> NTH Devil Ray | The Time Bum


The very first picture in the review, of the silver devilray, is very poorly done
Photographically speaking, it is overexposed and aesthetically in poor taste


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

dramanet said:


> The very first picture in the review, of the silver devilray, is very poorly done
> Photographically speaking, it is overexposed and aesthetically in poor taste


I think those photos are the Time Bum's, not Doc's. Maybe complain to him.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

dramanet said:


> The very first picture in the review, of the silver devilray, is very poorly done
> Photographically speaking, it is overexposed and aesthetically in poor taste


On the other hand, maybe it's an accurate representation of what the watch looks like when taken by a regular person. Some people value that more than artificial professional photographs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

you know those customs fellows are complete bum-readers.

I'm resorting to "silver-colored" in the future.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

uvalaw2005 said:


>


I ordered the black, looks great. Come on Spring!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dramanet said:


> The very first picture in the review, of the silver devilray, is very poorly done
> Photographically speaking, it is overexposed and aesthetically in poor taste


Understand, I consider the Time Bum a friend, and among my many faults is a fierce loyalty, which has on occasion led me to put my "goin' to war" pants on, in the name of defending my friends.

I'm not a photographer, and honestly, I don't care to have a photographer explain to me what makes a good photo.

I took photography in High School, and for a brief moment, I was awesome at it. I moved onto other things, since forgot almost everything I learned about the subject, and haven't cared enough to relearn any of it. I somehow get through life despite not having taken a great picture in 30 years.

On average, his pics are better than the ones I take. But he's not paid to be a photographer. I have a professional photographer who charges me $3000-$3500 every time I see him, about twice a year (and it's still not enough to motivate me to learn to take a good pic, just like the money I pay Aaron and Rusty to be on my design team isn't enough to motivate me to learn how to screw off the way they do yet make it look like working).

The Time Bum is a blogger, and I can tell you from personal experience dealing with dozens of them that he's a damned good one. Most of the bloggers I've seen can't write well, some don't read well, many couldn't take a good pic to save their life, and a handful have made me want to beat them with a bag of hammers.

His pics are decent enough, better than many others, and some of them are quite good. His writing is not just coherent, but entertaining, and he is far and away the most prolific blogger on the planet when it comes to the amount of content he's proven able to generate all by himself - and all of it has been consistently good content.

And it's a HOBBY for him. Until very recently, he made NO money from any of it, at all. He just recently added dirt-cheap banner ads to his site, and I know he'll sometimes get free watches sent his way, which he doesn't expect from any brand, nor does he ask for, and a lot of them are crap he'd never have bought for himself anyway.

Plus, I've met him, many times, and he's an astoundingly good person, much better than me, that's for certain. A recent demonstration of his selflessness was quite inspiring - for at least 2 days, I tried to act like a better person. The feeling's since passed, but still, you all can thank him for those two days.

My point is - he's my friend, a damned fine fellow, a criminally underrated blogger, a better than average writer and at least "decent" as an amateur photographer. I'm not sure why anyone would want to go out of their way to criticize his work, unless someone knew none of the above, had a compulsive need to criticize regardless of the above, or they were looking to provoke a reaction out of me, by posting their criticism here.

I think I'm out of the "provoked reaction" business, at least for the time being, having spent enough time reacting to provocation to see how unprofitable a business it is, so if that was the aim, I'm sorry to disappoint. My hope is you didn't realize you were needlessly criticizing a stellar human, or that photography is "your thing", and you feel so strongly about it that it's difficult for you to NOT comment when you see it being done "wrong".

If that's the case, I get it, believe me, because I feel the same way when I see startup micros trying to hump "cutting out the middle man", "timeless minimalism" and "affordable luxury" into the ground. I find it all gag-inducing. It's unfortunate it took me as long as it did to realize how pointless it is when I say anything about it, though.

The sad truth is most folks are happier without me telling them how badly they're screwing up, and everyone watching falls somewhere between mildly entertained and misplaced indignation.

Go figure.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Every time I hope the wall of text will be an acrostic, and every time I'm disappointed.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Why not just tell @dramanet to go screw?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

hwa said:


> Why not just tell @dramanet to go screw?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


interesting handle.....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Every time I hope the wall of text will be an acrostic, and every time I'm disappointed.


That actually makes the time spent typing it all worth it.



hwa said:


> Why not just tell @dramanet to go screw?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because that would be rude.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## dramanet (Jul 7, 2017)

Did not intend to besmirch your friend, I like reading his blog
just observed that, the photo he started the review off with was not a good choice.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

The time bum tends to start his reviews off with an "artistic" shot. I wouldn't call this one any different from the others. It looks interesting in the article preview picture and that's all that really matters.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

dramanet said:


> The very first picture in the review, of the silver devilray, is very poorly done
> Photographically speaking, it is overexposed and aesthetically in poor taste


Very easily resolved, forget the photos, buy the watch and look at the real thing in all of it's uniqueness - end of drama.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Every time I hope the wall of text will be an acrostic, and every time I'm disappointed.


You made me go look up "acrostic." Now I'm equally disappointed...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> You made me go look up "acrostic." Now I'm equally disappointed...


I don't know if this is where he got it, but it reminded me of the recent miniseries about the hunt for the UNAbomber.

The FBI agent who cracked the case wide open was one of those odd ducks who instantly recognized those sorts of patterns, and in fact part of his "job interview" for the UNAbomber task force involved his pointing out a previously unrecognized acrostic in one of the UNAbomber letters.

If you didn't see it, it's on demand (Discovery Channel). Watch it. It was really fantastic, particularly the "end-game" used by the justice system to get the UNAbomber to plead guilty.









While I'm at it, another show which aired during the same timeframe, and which was also really amazing, was the Murder of Laci Peterson (A&E networks). I don't want to spoil it for anyone, so I'll just say that it's the sort of show that makes you feel "normal" telling your wife, "whatever you do, if you're going to die suddenly, please don't disappear or die under mysterious circumstances."


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dramanet said:


> Did not intend to besmirch your friend, I like reading his blog
> just observed that, the photo he started the review off with was not a good choice.


probably nobody would've quarreled with you had you put it that way, and certainly nobody would've quarreled had you phrased it as a question, e.g., "Why that shot, ya' bum?". But to borrow a phrase, your message was very poorly conceived and very poorly executed. It was, to put it short, aesthetically displeasing. Words matter, yes they do.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Let's let it slide. It's the internet, we don't get tone of voice, we don't all know each other well, and speaking as someone who hasn't always made the best first impression, I'm grateful to be given second chances.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys - if you're on Instagram and posting wrist shots of my watches, please try to remember to tag @janistrading, so I can see them, and repost some.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## John Price (Feb 21, 2011)

Just want to say I'm glad to see Sparky making a comeback on the back and crown of that watch Chris. I may be in the minority but I do like Sparky. Watch budget is blown for a while (Alexander Shorokhoff on layaway - wife graciously let me do that as my Christmas gift this year) but when the funds are back up I'm going to be on the hunt for either an Azores or Antilles (love them both but leaning toward that Antilles in blue or champers). Keep up the good work Chris.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That Azores is a good looking watch.


----------



## cheesetime (Sep 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

View attachment 12608851


This is also on Netflix and is fantastic. Check it out!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## R.A.D. (Aug 24, 2014)

^^ that devilray pic is as cool as it gets

Commander into the sunset


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

LOL!!! I stole owe ya an EXTREME!!!! Close up...Fackin criticize my drunkin fire pics!!! lmao



docvail said:


> Guys - if you're on Instagram and posting wrist shots of my watches, please try to remember to tag @janistrading, so I can see them, and repost some.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Matching your watch to your T-shirt FTW!










Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Just ordered 3 more DevilRay watches for friends. Get one while you can!


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Playing strap Barbie today:


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Playing strap Barbie today:


I'm really a bracelet guy, but I like that last strap on this watch!!


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Playing strap Barbie today:


The mesh picks up that's 70's vibe


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Playing strap Barbie today:


Great line.

I too did that yesterday. Pulled the bracelets off my Barracuda and Steinhart OVM + OVGMT and on went matching dark brown straps. Two are W&W straps, the other a Cristopher Ward.

Skip










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Devil Ray on mesh looks great!

But I'm digging the original bracelet look too!


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Took some photos today to enter into the FB Diver's Watches photo contest. I posted the one I like best there, but figured I'd share them all here. Hope you enjoy!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dat blue!










Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Thanks guys for testing out my watches. I think I'm ready for you to ship them my way :-!


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

After seeing that Blue, I am very happy that I ordered it. Just wishing I had a few more bucks stashed for that Black!!!

Very nice indeed!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Is anyone else finding that the forum is acting a bit wonky recently?


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Orange!


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> Is anyone else finding that the forum is acting a bit wonky recently?


Yes

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Is anyone else finding that the forum is acting a bit wonky recently?


The people or the software?


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Is anyone else finding that the forum is acting a bit wonky recently?


Yeah it kept saying I had new posts in threads that didn't and would jump me to a post that was days old when I went to first unread. Marked the whole forum read and it seems good now.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

GlenRoiland said:


> The people or the software?


Both?!! 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Lookie what I just got  Sadly I really can't justify keeping both of them, so if you wanted a Nacken Modern Blue and missed it, now's your chance to get my pristine example which will be going up for sale shortly.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

docvail said:


> Is anyone else finding that the forum is acting a bit wonky recently?


It logged me out and kicks me back to posts from 6 days ago. Not a tech guy but that sounds like something you'd do to eliminate a virus or malware on your server.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

CDawson said:


> It logged me out and kicks me back to posts from 6 days ago. Not a tech guy but that sounds like something you'd do to eliminate a virus or malware on your server.


Same here, thought it was just my Tapatalk. Wonky indeed..

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Derkdiggler (Jul 5, 2016)

CDawson said:


> It logged me out and kicks me back to posts from 6 days ago. Not a tech guy but that sounds like something you'd do to eliminate a virus or malware on your server.


Same here.. Just "liked" a watch that I "liked" 6 days ago, lol.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

I've had problems uploading photos, getting logged off every time I change pages and other wonky stuff to boot

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)

ryan92084 said:


> Yeah it kept saying I had new posts in threads that didn't and would jump me to a post that was days old when I went to first unread. Marked the whole forum read and it seems good now.


Same here. On Tapacrap, sometimes takes me to the latest posts, other times jumps me back several pages.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just had a PM exchange with one of the mods. The site owners are aware of all the issues. Apparently they're scrambling to get it all sorted out. It seems that it's one of those situations where every fix they attempt causes something else to go wrong.

My understanding is that Watchuseek runs on vBulletin software, hosted on servers Ernie owned, which I assume are now owned by Vertical Scope, and that since the site's inception, there have been dozens, maybe hundreds of software updates, combined with various add-in apps and customizations. 

I'm not a software engineer or IT manager, but I imagine that every new software update brings with it the risk of widespread glitches from new bugs being created in the system, and/or these sorts of issues can be caused by over-worked hardware.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

So, uvalaw has the black (great pics btw) and the time bum had the orange and silver but where is the turquoise? I need my fix


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> So, uvalaw has the black (great pics btw) and the time bum had the orange and silver but where is the turquoise? I need my fix


This


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

I'VE DONE IT!...just finished reading the whole thread....

I'd like to say "i dont know how i missed Nth"....but i do, if i'm honest i followed L&H at the start, really liked what you were doing Doc but none of your early designs really sung to me.

I saw the Nacken (loved it) show up on some thread last week and started looking in to Nth and Janis and now feel i see how all the pieces fit together. kicking myself i missed the Nacken

My current Dilemma is where to go for the Ghost Rider (wish there were more pics!) or hold off and wait for a Nacken re release....:-s


----------



## sevens (Nov 2, 2010)

My new Nacken


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

ryan92084 said:


> So, uvalaw has the black (great pics btw) and the time bum had the orange and silver but where is the turquoise? I need my fix












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

GlenRoiland said:


> This












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

vmarks said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





vmarks said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ahhh, that's the stuff.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

I'm gnome photog but, here is Whilver...


----------



## nwatkins (Aug 24, 2017)

CMA22inc said:


> I'm gnome photog but, here is Whilver...
> View attachment 12626573
> View attachment 12626571


Damn. Is that autocorrect?


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

nwatkins said:


> Damn. Is that autocorrect?


Nope it's an Easter egg....
Look close.


----------



## nwatkins (Aug 24, 2017)

CMA22inc said:


> Nope it's an Easter egg....
> Look close.


Okay. I get it.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

That whilver looks great |>


----------



## Minorcollector (Dec 28, 2015)

I'm new to L&H. Just bought a used Orthos Commander. Love it so far. Got my eye on a Cerberus next. Still not knocked out about the name (reminds me of Huey Lewis) and the Radio Shack dog logo could be better. I like that the Orthos doesn't have the logo. After avoiding the brand for those issues, I am very happy with my first purchase.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This post is for anyone/everyone who is currently locked out of the site, unable to log back in.

It's not just you. Watchuseek pushed out a password reset mandate to all users today. Apparently there was some security scare.

If you're finding that nothing you do will get you back in, it's not just you. It's taken many of us multiple tries. Hopefully, something in what follows will work for you.

If you come to a page which says you have to reset your password, the words "this page", on that page, are a hyperlink to the password reset. It's hard to tell there's a link there, because they're the same color text.

If you use the "forgot/reset password" links within the usual login buttons, be sure to clear cookies and cache before you return to the site to try to reset your password. I'm not sure, but I think part of the problem I and others were having is that the site was loading a cached version of that page.

When you use the reset password functions, you'll get 2 emails. The first one has a link you must click to confirm you want to reset your password. Then, there will be a second email, with a temp password. And under that, there's a link to the new password reset page, but I think it will only take you to the correct page if you've first cleared your cookies and cache.

The new password rules are more strict. Passwords must be at least 10 characters long, with at least one capital letter, at least one lower case letter, at least one numerical digit, and at least one "special character", a non-letter, non-number character.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> When you use the reset password functions, you'll get 2 emails. The first one has a link you must click to confirm you want to reset your password. Then, there will be a second email, with a temp password. And under that, there's a link to the new password reset page, but I think it will only take you to the correct page if you've first cleared your cookies and cache.​


Also the initial email is slooooow and if you use the reset function more than once it will invalidate the link you eventually will get from your prior attempts.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

This is the second time for a password reset for me. I remember it was just a few months ago and I actually sent ya a PM (sorry for that btw but I am not sure who is from WUS anymore on my FB lol). I thought I got hacked and did not know if this was a regular occurrence.

As for the pic upload thingy, effing silly mahn!! I think you have to upload to their storage then you are able to share it. Iono I am just a guy sitting here at work watching the clock go tic-toc and oh ya, I frigging Rock!!!



docvail said:


> This post is for anyone/everyone who is currently locked out of the site, unable to log back in.
> 
> It's not just you. Watchuseek pushed out a password reset mandate to all users today. Apparently there was some security scare.
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Who did what now?


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

I wonder what Beelzebub's chapstick tastes like?


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## CantFightJose (Dec 29, 2016)

ryan92084 said:


> I wonder what Beelzebub's chapstick tastes like?


Cherry.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

CantFightJose said:


> Cherry.


you beat me to it... exactly what I was going to say!


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

To all - The Ghost Rider ended up being a 25-piece limited edition. There are 4 pieces left, including a no-date, stainless case I just added to the website, after having my repair guy switch the guts of two watches. When it's gone, I won't be able to make more, as the only cases I have left are a handful of DLC cases.
http://www.janistrading.com/phantom-ghost-rider-limited-edition/

Pic stolen from someone, no idea who:


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Playing strap Barbie today:


What strap is this? Looks great!


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Keeper of Time said:


> What strap is this? Looks great!


Rolled canvas from Clover Straps.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I thought I was over the newb WUS strap thing but you had to mention this!!! Now to look into Clover straps.



uvalaw2005 said:


> Rolled canvas from Clover Straps.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I thought I was over the newb WUS strap thing but you had to mention this!!! Now to look into Clover straps.


Patrik is a great strapmaker and person. He goes by "trikpa" here on the forum.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I thought I was over the newb WUS strap thing but you had to mention this!!! Now to look into Clover straps.


I've gotten around 10 straps from Patrik. He's extremely fair in his pricing and the quality far exceeds what he charges. And he's just an all-around nice guy. I'd highly recommend him.


----------



## RedRonin27 (Jul 17, 2014)

Yum! Yum!









Sent from my SM-A800I using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RedRonin27 said:


> Yum! Yum!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You had me at "Golden Pork Floss".

I mean, if they made floss pork-flavored, c'mon, who here wouldn't floss more, amirite?


----------



## RedRonin27 (Jul 17, 2014)

docvail said:


> You had me at "Golden Pork Floss".
> 
> I mean, if they made floss pork-flavored, c'mon, who here wouldn't floss more, amirite?




Sent from my SM-A800I using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone interested, I did another Hour Time Podcast earlier this week.

I'm not saying I was gossiping, but I did mention Eddie Platts , Carlos Carvalho , and Richard Paige...

https://www.wristwatchreview.com/2017/11/10/hourtime-show-doc-vail-takes-us-to-school/


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

I really enjoyed listening to your interview. Well Done!.


----------



## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

Quazi said:


> I really enjoyed listening to your interview. Well Done!.


Me too !!! 
The more I "get to know" doc, the more I wanna date his sister. :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chronopolis said:


> Me too !!!
> The more I "get to know" doc, the more I wanna date his sister. :-!


Get in line.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FYI to all - just one last piece of the NTH Santa Cruz left.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 12653177
> 
> 
> View attachment 12653179


I predict that when the Barracuda sells out, it'll end up being a highly sought-after model.

I also predict I'll get requests to make more, which I don't foresee doing.

I get that not everyone is immediately drawn to a "brown" watch, but it's more than just "brown", and it needs to be seen in person to really appreciate it.


----------



## Sogeha (Jul 13, 2015)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 12653177
> 
> 
> View attachment 12653179


That looks fantastic

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> I predict that when the Barracuda sells out, it'll end up being a highly sought-after model.
> 
> I also predict I'll get requests to make more, which I don't foresee doing.
> 
> I get that not everyone is immediately drawn to a "brown" watch, but it's more than just "brown", and it needs to be seen in person to really appreciate it.


I REALLY like the Barracuda. I like it a lot. I want one. I have a Santa Cruz that I love. At this point I would need to trade out my Santa Cruz (or another watch in my collection) to allow for adding a Barracuda. I predict that sometime down the road I'll begin the search for a used one, and if I'm lucky, pick one up then.

As of right now, there is only 1 watch in my collection that I think I would trade for the Barracuda, and it isn't a micro... another brand that starts with "S" and ends in "o".

In any case, I agree with your assessment above! Great looking watch!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

UGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH

BARRACUDAAAAA!!!!! o|:-x

Looks great. :-!

o|o|o|:-x:-x

No really, a great looking watch. |>

o|o|:-|:-x

Enjoy ;-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> I REALLY like the Barracuda. I like it a lot. I want one. I have a Santa Cruz that I love. At this point I would need to trade out my Santa Cruz (or another watch in my collection) to allow for adding a Barracuda. I predict that sometime down the road I'll begin the search for a used one, and if I'm lucky, pick one up then.
> 
> As of right now, there is only 1 watch in my collection that I think I would trade for the Barracuda, and it isn't a micro... another brand that starts with "S" and ends in "o".
> 
> In any case, I agree with your assessment above! Great looking watch!


One of the things I think I learned with the NTH Subs is that there are some models or designs which seem to be very well received, and as such, it can be surprising if they don't fly off the shelves. The Barracuda and Scorpene are both examples.

My hunch is that if I show WIS thirteen different versions of the NTH Subs, and asked them to rank them all, I'd find that those models which seem well-loved but didn't sell as well were a lot of people's second favorites.

If a design is a lot of people's favorite, I know how many to make. If a design is only a few people's favorite, I know how many to make. If a design is a lot of people's second favorite, but not many people's overall favorite, it's going to skew the numbers a bit.

No big deal, in the long run. They all sell out eventually.

If I make 13 versions of the Subs, 8 of them with date/no-date options, that ends up being 21 unique SKUs. Ideally, they'd all sell out at exactly the same time, but that's impossible. It's not like I'm selling 21 watches each day, day in and day out, in proportions precisely the same as their production numbers. I'm always going to end up with a handful of versions left over near the end.

Case in point, I'm down to one Santa Cruz, four Santa Fe's, and a dozen Barracudas. I'm not sitting here thinking, "damn, I made too many Barracudas". Hell no. They're awesome, and if I was sold out of them, I guarantee I'd have people asking me if I'll make more. I deliberately made more Santa Fe's and Barracudas (more than the pre-order sales suggested) because they were more-or-less completely different than the other versions (as opposed to being a new color of an existing model), and I wanted to make sure I had enough in stock, in case they took off later.

I made about 700 Subs so far. We're down to 18 left, total, spread across 3 versions, none of which are what I'd call "overstocked" at this point. I'll eventually get around to starting pre-orders on another batch, sometime, when I feel like it, whenever that is. I'm sure I'll end up with 3 or 4 versions in the next batch selling out sooner, and 3 or 4 versions hanging around a little longer. It is what it is.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

I know you don't like design requests, but if you dipped a NTH sub i C3 X1 I wouldn't need to know any other details to jump on a pre-order. 
The Borealis Cascais just feels like too much watch for me, but I just can't let it go until something smaller comes along with that luminisous wonder paint

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> I know you don't like design requests, but if you dipped a NTH sub i C3 X1 I wouldn't need to know any other details to jump on a pre-order.
> The Borealis Cascais just feels like too much watch for me, but I just can't let it go until something smaller comes along with that luminisous wonder paint
> 
> Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk


I'm pretty sure the NTH Subs' lume is pretty respectable as it is. If I added the new X1 lume, it would add to my costs, and I'd be forced to raise the price, bringing with the price raise the moans and groans emanating from people with sand caught in their nether-regions.

Just about everything I make is "maxed out" in terms of what I can offer in that watch at the price I'm selling it for. I can't add anything without adding to the price, and while I understand the appeal of "moar lume", or "CNC-machined endlinks", or whatever narrow-gap filler item it is we're discussing, I hope people can understand that from the business owner's chair, I have to consider the "limits" on what I can charge for something given the basic specs, which people here love to compare.

"Bah! That's too much for a watch with 'only' a [movement calibre] in it!"

As if that one component was the sum total of the watch's production cost, and the only consideration in what its price ought to be.

I can't disagree enough, but at the same time, I can't reasonably expect the market to come around to my way of thinking. There will always be a divide between those who see enough value in what I'm selling, and that the total is more than the sum of its specs, and those who have it cemented in their heads that a watch with X movement can't ever cost more than Y dollars.

The Subs are what I consider to be a "complete package", meaning there's nothing about them which I wish I could go back and change, and whatever 'improvement' I might make wouldn't raise their price. I have to acknowledge that their price is about as much as I think I can reasonably ask people to pay, without a lot of people accusing me of over-charging.

I deal with this a lot, when I consider various components. I think it's a strategic mistake for a micro to make a watch that is a killer in every way, but then disappoint people with one component. Not that the 9015 is a letdown. I think it's underrated, but because it's underrated, the market perception is that it doesn't belong in a watch that costs $700-$800, which is why I can't add $100-$150 to the Subs' $600-$625 price, and give you all X1 lume and CNC-machined end-links, a better clasp, etc.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

That's about the answer I expected. Well, maybe a bit longer  
The subs are like a good record, they just become more and more appealing over time and I'll more than likely jump on the next batch whatever lume you put on it, because I know it will be good. 
It's just that now, knowing what X1 can do, I would love to see it on a watch I presume to be sticking around i my collection for a long time. Living just south of the polar circle, my watches get minimal charges of light for much of the year, and my X1 watch was the first to provide acceptable performance in these conditions. 
I prefer to not having to change to a lesser watch* just because I need the lume, so I'm really hoping that my future sub will make it past that enough-lume-for-crazy-dark-norwegian-winter sweet spot :-D

*The cost of having an additional watch, just for having one with more lume will cost me more than having it all in one slightly more expensive watch. But I also understand the need of a single Norwegian isn't much of a business case. Keep doing what your doing. It makes sense.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Hey Doc, guess who's talking about your watches today...


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Ironically enough the Scorpène and Barracuda were my favorite NTH subs.
Sad to hear they did not get as much love as expected.
I am glad the Scorpène was not released the same time as the Barracuda, otherwise I would have a hard time deciding which one to get.
Maybe once I find a new job I can start saving for a Barracuda.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> I'm pretty sure the NTH Subs' lume is pretty respectable as it is. If I added the new X1 lume, it would add to my costs, and I'd be forced to raise the price, bringing with the price raise the moans and groans emanating from people with sand caught in their nether-regions.
> 
> Just about everything I make is "maxed out" in terms of what I can offer in that watch at the price I'm selling it for. I can't add anything without adding to the price, and while I understand the appeal of "moar lume", or "CNC-machined endlinks", or whatever narrow-gap filler item it is we're discussing, I hope people can understand that from the business owner's chair, I have to consider the "limits" on what I can charge for something given the basic specs, which people here love to compare.
> 
> ...


6/10, not enough bluster.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Hey Doc, guess who's talking about your watches today...


Yep, saw that.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ConfusedOne said:


> Ironically enough the Scorpène and Barracuda were my favorite NTH subs.
> Sad to hear they did not get as much love as expected.
> I am glad the Scorpène was not released the same time as the Barracuda, otherwise I would have a hard time deciding which one to get.
> Maybe once I find a new job I can start saving for a Barracuda.


I don't want to suggest they were poor performers, only that I made more than "not enough".

If I had to choose between making not quite enough and a few more than I "need", I'd rather make not quite enough, but it seems in every production, I end up with a little of both.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> 6/10, not enough bluster.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Blame the new exercise regimen and diet, which is low-bluster.

Mmmm...bluster.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Case in point about the market's perceptions regarding pricing, particularly in the case of micros, and when it comes to movements, read the comments on the TUG video, and you'll see many which are good examples of what I see all the time. 

"$600 is too much for a micro / miyota..."

No point in arguing about it. The minds are made up, in many cases. Best we can hope for is to agree to disagree. 


Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

It's true, but $3k or more for an ETA is fine. Ugh. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> It's true, but $3k or more for an ETA is fine. Ugh.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right?

Wait, that was sarcastic agreement there, right?

Ugh indeed. I'm so tired of pointless arguments on the internet. Everybody just think what you want.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a completely unrelated topic...

Through Facebook, I've gotten to be somewhat friendly with Eddie Platts of Timefactors.com. He told me about this project earlier, but I now see he's just started gauging interest in a chrono he's considering for production. Here's a link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/microbrandwatches/permalink/594500774007462/

There are multiple colorways, all variations on a pretty recognizable theme:









So far, it seems that there are two dials, this black on white Panda, and the reverse white on black Panda. Each looks like it will be available with the black tachy bezel pictured, or the stainless version of the same.

First, let's dispense with the obvious elephant in the room - it's a Rolex Daytona homage (or, if you're an Omega man, a Speedmaster Schumacher LE homage, same thing).

1. I don't care.

Someone needs to make a fantastic Daytona homage.

Alpha's is sketchy as hell, with that ST19 and slaved 12-hour hand in the register at 6. Armida's is quartz. Steinhart's is nice enough, I think, but it's a chunky monkey.

I'm not going to criticize anyone for making an homage. I seriously considered making a Daytona homage myself. If I made one, it likely would have been with the Seiko NE88. It wouldn't have been small, or cheap. The NE88 is a big, thick movement, and it ain't cheap to buy.

2. This could be the best Daytona homage, ever.

Eddie's got a line on 200 pieces of the Lemania hand-wind chronograph movement, the same one used in the Omega Speedmaster moonwatches. That's legit.

Eddie's not a ham-n-egger, fly-by-night operator. If he makes it, he'll make it great - top notch case, top notch finishing, etc.

How much is this going to be?

Uhmmm...not cheap. He told me what the movements will cost, and I let out a little pee. My guess is the watch could be $2000-$2500.

Okay, that's not cheap, even for a mechanical chrono, and yes, I realize you can find used Omega Speedmasters in that range, but...

1. Used Omegas in that range are USED, often without warranties, often beat to hell, and in need of service. This would be a new watch, with a warranty.

2. How much is a used Schumacher LE (the closest thing to a Daytona, in looks), in good condition? I looked, and it looks like they start at $4500, used.

3. Show me a new, 200-piece limited edition hand-wind chrono using that Lemania movement, that looks as good as this, for less than $2500.

Am I going to buy one?

Damn, I'd love to own one, but I can't make myself think about dropping that sort of coin on a watch, even a 200-piece limited edition hand-wind chrono with a Lemania movement that looks like a Daytona. I'm not saying it's not worth it. I'm sure it'll be worth every cent. I just can't pry that many cents out of my pocket.

But man, I hope he makes this. I know it will be amazing.

Why am I telling you about it? I dunno. I guess I like seeing people make bold moves. A microbrand buying 200 pieces of a very expensive movement, in order to make a limited run of chronos for $2k-$2.5k is a big, bold, ballsy, move.


----------



## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

Speaking of unrelated...

Now that I've seen a few of you videos, I cannot read any of your posts anymore 
without hearing your voice, like, you're reading it inside my head. :-!
Dammit. o|

PS: DAT WATCH!!!! I used have the GEVRIL version with ETA 2824 + Dubois. I liked it a lot, but the movement always had me nervous.
..
...

Imagon talk to my wife about making another baby, so I can sell it after a year. I figure, if it's not too ugly, I should be able to fetch 3K for him/her/it. (D'oh!) :-x



docvail said:


> On a completely unrelated topic...
> 
> Through Facebook, I've gotten to be somewhat friendly with Eddie Platts of Timefactors.com. He told me about this project earlier, but I now see he's just started gauging interest in a chrono he's considering for production. Here's a link:
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chronopolis said:


> Speaking of unrelated...
> 
> Now that I've seen a few of you videos, I cannot read any of your posts anymore
> without hearing your voice, like, you're reading it inside my head. :-!
> ...


Selling one's own babies FTW!!!

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Since its now been officially sanctioned as cool on a Youtube channel I just had to wear mine:







Glad I got in on these before you started going all Hollywood on us Doc. :roll:


----------



## Amuthini (Sep 15, 2011)

docvail said:


> On a completely unrelated topic...
> 
> Through Facebook, I've gotten to be somewhat friendly with Eddie Platts of Timefactors.com. He told me about this project earlier, but I now see he's just started gauging interest in a chrono he's considering for production. Here's a link:
> 
> ...


the hour hand seems too long, almost as long as the minute hand.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> Case in point about the market's perceptions regarding pricing, particularly in the case of micros, and when it comes to movements, read the comments on the TUG video, and you'll see many which are good examples of what I see all the time.
> 
> "$600 is too much for a micro / miyota..."
> 
> ...


I guess you aren't entitled to recoup design costs, materials costs, production costs, and turn a profit, it seems.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> I guess you aren't entitled to recoup design costs, materials costs, production costs, and turn a profit, it seems.


Meh. I've gotten far enough along in my business to feel certain amount of validation in the decisions made to this point, including pricing, and I'm past the stage of being too concerned with what the online chatter suggests about any of it. The guys who insist on max specs for minimum price are never going to also get the best design and the best overall experience. No business can be sustained by delivering the max of both tangible and intangible value but without charging enough to do it.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Nth Santa Fe on a Jubilee










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Meh. I've gotten far enough along in my business to feel certain amount of validation in the decisions made to this point, including pricing, and I'm past the stage of being too concerned with what the online chatter suggests about any of it. The guys who insist on max specs for minimum price are never going to also get the best design and the best overall experience. No business can be sustained by delivering the max of both tangible and intangible value but without charging enough to do it.
> 
> Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


But a gentlemen on kickstarter with an impressive video said he will sell me a watch with an ETA movement, sapphire glass and a dial made of Mars rock for $39.95. Hes throwing in band history for free since he once plowed the snow at the Rolex facility. :-s


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

When Google thinks the picture of you and another dude looks like Chris Brown and Rihanna...and you're Rihanna, not Chris Brown...


----------



## laminads (Nov 4, 2014)

docvail said:


> View attachment 12654397


definitely an untapped market. i'd be happy with an alpha if the quality weren't so sketchy. i own a speedmaster schumacher LE but its fat and doesn't have the screw pushers. $2500 is asking for a whole lot but if the quality REALLY is there...i'd do it.


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

Loving my Santa Cruz so far... my baby 

Help : I'm looking to change the metal bracelet for one with a shiny center link (so I guess similar to an Oyster bracelet)
Do you have recommandations on a good quality (.. yet affordable) bracelet with shiny center link that would fit the NTH sub ?

Thanks


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Don't know of a PCL oyster bracelet that will fit, but @rpm1974 found a folded end-link jubilee that fits.


----------



## 40mm (Jan 15, 2017)

Thanks Doc !
I'll keep searching for a PCL oyster but so far I haven't found anything that fits


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> When Google thinks the picture of you and another dude looks like Chris Brown and Rihanna...and you're Rihanna, not Chris Brown...
> 
> View attachment 12659335


First response that comes to mind... inappropriate.
...
Second response that comes to mind... inappropriate.
...
Thirst resp- ahh, nevermind.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Throwback Thursday!









Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Me too!
Why I waited so long to track one down I'll never know. Quickly moving up the rotation.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> When Google thinks the picture of you and another dude looks like Chris Brown and Rihanna...and you're Rihanna, not Chris Brown...
> 
> View attachment 12659335


I had never noticed the resemblance before.......

Are you free Friday night?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> I had never noticed the resemblance before.......
> 
> Are you free Friday night?


Not free, but my time can be bought.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

So, anything new about that NTH Renegade model of yours?


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Yesterday, I wore the Spectre.
Today, I'm wearing the Phantom. 
Tomorrow... It'll be the NTH Azores, but I was thinking another US military plane themed watch would be cool. I like the new Spectres, and I'm kicking myself for spending money elsewhere, rather than on the Ghost rider, but is there a Blackbird, Warthog, Apache or something coming to complete the set... 2 doesn't seem enough.









Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> So, anything new about that NTH Renegade model of yours?
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


Nope.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



macosie said:


> Yesterday, I wore the Spectre.
> Today, I'm wearing the Phantom.
> Tomorrow... It'll be the NTH Azores, but I was thinking another US military plane themed watch would be cool. I like the new Spectres, and I'm kicking myself for spending money elsewhere, rather than on the Ghost rider, but is there a Blackbird, Warthog, Apache or something coming to complete the set... 2 doesn't seem enough.
> 
> ...


Nope.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*


----------



## Leekster (Aug 7, 2015)

docvail said:


> Right?
> 
> Wait, that was sarcastic agreement there, right?
> 
> Ugh indeed. I'm so tired of pointless arguments on the internet. Everybody just think what you want.


Oldie but a goodie.









Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## watchnut69 (Dec 24, 2014)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

I wonder if this is the owl that left 1/3 of rat in my yard?



SteamJ said:


> View attachment 12667675


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

watchnut69 said:


> I wonder if this is the owl that left 1/3 of rat in my yard?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope. That's Doc's new customer service rep.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Nope. That's Doc's new customer service rep.


I leave all the hiring for the CS department to Jonathan, my VP of CS:






ME: "Jonathan, how's the CS department doing? Do you have all the help you need there?"

Jonathan, VP of CS: "Cheeseburger."


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Woo Ghost Rider!! ...If you like black watches , you'll love this one...thx Doc!









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Commander today! Sure is one sexy watch!









Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


> Woo Ghost Rider!! ...If you like black watches , you'll love this one...thx Doc!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


bracelet looks like a great fit!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Thanks! Bracelet is a strapcode..awesome clasp too









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sincere best wishes for the upcoming holiday, one and all. Travel safely, if you're traveling, and don't over-indulge.


----------



## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

docvail said:


> Sincere best wishes for the upcoming holiday, one and all. Travel safely, if you're traveling, and *don't over-indulge.*


And no Charlie Rosing or Kevin Spaceying anyone, no matter what you _think _those in the same room feel. :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chronopolis said:


> And no Charlie Rosing or Kevin Spaceying anyone, no matter what you _think _those in the same room feel. :-!


Good thing you said that. There was a distinct possibility I'd go Charlie Rose on someone this week, but now I'll think better about it.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

You're famous again Doc. Just no "Lion-Shark" editions, please?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Going Charlie Rose is still better than Anthony Weiner!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> You're famous again Doc. Just no "Lion-Shark" editions, please?


Blowin' up like Val Kilmer!










Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

Rhorya said:


> Going Charlie Rose is still better than Anthony Weiner!!!


Respect!
At last! A connoisseur on the finer points of totally unnecessary and uncalled for genital exposure. o|

New Jersey... no wonder. :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

At least three shades of blue... NTH Näcken Modern Blue for "Boy, those 'savages' really saved our asses" day.










Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

docvail said:


> Blowin' up like Val Kilmer!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yikes! But seems to be true

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

My Janis line up









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## powerband (Oct 17, 2008)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I vividly remember being in the car with HWA, leaving a DC GTG at GUTuna's restaurant, and asking him, point blank (hoping it would shut him up), "tell me, smart guy, what's missing among the vast array of choices available to someone looking for a good Sub homage?"
> 
> What he said, and what others followed on with was, essentially, "everything out there is either too big, too thick, too flat, too long, too expensive, too crappy, the wait is too long, too limited, the details are wrong, etc, etc, etc. What we need is for someone to make a more affordable, have-it-now, yet just as meticulous when it comes to the details alternative to MKII."


Well, speaking of MKII... in spending a couple of days with the NTH sub, I'd say that it is subjectively 90% of my MKII Kingston and (for a period of time) my Key West. (The subjective 10% difference is in the 5% for the "elabor Swiss movement vs. the ubiquitous Japanese movement" and the other 5% for the gilt intensity-the gilt in the MKII is brighter while the gilt in the Amphion matches that on the Tudor Black Bay I had. I gave only 5% difference for the movements because I don't give all that much of a sh** when both casebacks are closed off.)

But for the subjective 90% of an MKII project watch, the cost of the NTH sits at only 35% the cost, with no waiting period of 3-6 years (with your prepaid money tied up for many of those years) and very little update for those who paid. No matter where the NTH sub was made and put together, the quality is impressively high. It may cost one or two hundred dollars more than other boutique watches swimming in the same water, but the design details and the fit and finish are noticeably and palpably better-case shape and case size, beautifully polished chamfers, 300M water resistance in an amazingly compact case, excellent Bezel fitment and operation, attractive lug curves, precise endlink fitment into lugs, crown detail, crown operation and crown-stem robustness, and extensive lume usage, etc.

I question why I'd pay nearly 300% for a watch that's only 10% more.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## powerband (Oct 17, 2008)

A few more indoor pictures under harsh lighting.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



powerband said:


> Well, speaking of MKII... in spending a couple of days with the NTH sub, I'd say that it is subjectively 90% of my MKII Kingston and (for a period of time) my Key West. (The subjective 10% difference is in the 5% for the "elabor Swiss movement vs. the ubiquitous Japanese movement" and the other 5% for the gilt intensity-the gilt in the MKII is brighter while the gilt in the Amphion matches that on the Tudor Black Bay I had. And only 5% difference for the movements because I don't give all that much of a sh** when both casebacks are closed off.
> 
> I question why I'd pay nearly 300% for a watch that's only 10% more.


I question if the second mention of the 5% of the movements makes the total 15%, or if it was the same 5%, so it's just 10%.

OCD about math - this is what it looks like.


----------



## powerband (Oct 17, 2008)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I question if the second mention of the 5% of the movements makes the total 15%, or if it was the same 5%, so it's just 10%.
> 
> OCD about math - this is what it looks like.


Gilt difference=5%
Movement difference=5%
Total=10%

Your OCD is worse than mine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



powerband said:


> Gilt difference=5%
> Movement difference=5%
> Total=10%
> 
> ...


I think my OCD should be good for at least 3% back.


----------



## powerband (Oct 17, 2008)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I think my OCD should be good for at least 3% back.


And since buying your watch saved me 65% compared to buying another Key West, I'll spot you back 5% and, please, keep the change.

I'm loving your watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Nope.
> 
> Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


Hahaha to the point!!


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Sincere best wishes for the upcoming holiday, one and all. Travel safely, if you're traveling, and don't over-indulge.


I have discovered the key to not over-indulging. Just come down with some raging food poisoning the night before.


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

Anyone else watch Guy's Grocery Games? Am I crazy, or is that an Orthos?









Sent using Tapatalk


----------



## sevens (Nov 2, 2010)

Hi Doc
I have an NTH and the bezel faced problem. 
Can you fix it or change the new bezel ? thanks


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

sevens said:


> Hi Doc
> I have an NTH and the bezel faced problem.
> Can you fix it or change the new bezel ? thanks


Sevens,

You might have better luck if you use the support link on his website at Janis Trading Company.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Hey Doc, Do you know where to get an equivalent quality tropic rubber strap like the one of the azores/antilles? I'm planning on ordering a yellow seaforth, which i think would look great on that strap. I'd order the strap from you, but since I'm not ordering anything else, international shipping would double the price... So that doesn't make a lot of sense for me..

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Hey, doc, first post-Thanksgiving facepalm?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Happy Black Fannum Phrydae!!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kak1154 said:


> Anyone else watch Guy's Grocery Games? Am I crazy, or is that an Orthos?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ho. Lee. Crap.

That is almost certainly an Orthos.

I just looked, and didn't see a "Guy Fieri" in my customer list. Possibly he picked it up used, or had someone buy it for him. That's pretty crazy.

I once saw some WUS thread alluding to the possibility that come watch-geek celebrities are on the forum. I recall there was speculation about John Mayer being a member.

If any celebs are reading this, let me know if you'd like to be a brand ambassador, and we could maybe work something out.

Bonus irony points if it's Kevin Spacey.



sevens said:


> Hi Doc
> I have an NTH and the bezel faced problem.
> Can you fix it or change the new bezel ? thanks











Shipping, Returns, Warranty, Pre-Order Policies & FAQs











cowboys5sb1997 said:


> Sevens,
> 
> You might have better luck if you use the support link on his website at Janis Trading Company.


^This



Wimads said:


> Hey Doc, Do you know where to get an equivalent quality tropic rubber strap like the one of the azores/antilles? I'm planning on ordering a yellow seaforth, which i think would look great on that strap. I'd order the strap from you, but since I'm not ordering anything else, international shipping would double the price... So that doesn't make a lot of sense for me..
> 
> Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


Equivalent in quality to what *I* sell???

PFFFT!

Inconceivable.

Just kidding. In the EU, try WatchGecko. I know they sell a tropic style strap, and it appears to be good quality, with a fair price. If the rubber isn't silicone, then the quality should be close to or the same as mine, and the price is in the right ballpark.

https://www.watchgecko.com/zuludiver-tropic-rubber-strap.php


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Hey, doc, first post-Thanksgiving facepalm?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope. That happened earlier today, when I discovered my step-father and half-brother had covered my parent's beach house in a thick layer of dust, as a result of trying to replace a few cracked floor tiles in the kitchen.

I knew my mother would not be happy when she returned.

I was right.

She dropped about half a dozen less-than-subtle hints about how unhappy she was within an hour of returning home.

Let the drinking commence!


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> Equivalent in quality to what *I* sell???
> 
> PFFFT!
> 
> Inconceivable.


Of course, what was I thinking 



docvail said:


> Just kidding. In the EU, try WatchGecko. I know they sell a tropic style strap, and it appears to be good quality, with a fair price. If the rubber isn't silicone, then the quality should be close to or the same as mine, and the price is in the right ballpark.
> 
> https://www.watchgecko.com/zuludiver-tropic-rubber-strap.php


Alright thanks! Someone else also just recommended them to me, so will check it out 

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I've noticed that in addition to Guy, Andrew Zimmern appears to be quite the watch guy. I've never been able to identify any of his watches in the quick shots of them you get on TV...never bothered to try to screen cap one.

Anyway....very cool ^ above.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

That's not Guy's arm in the picture. I think it's the arm of another competitor GGG.

Guy wears monsters. Invicta, Android/Aragon, etc...


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Ho. Lee. Crap.
> 
> That is almost certainly an Orthos.
> 
> ...


It wasn't Guy, it was one of the contestants. Season 15, episode 5 if you care to research. I couldn't find the guy's name after a quick Google. They probably said it on the episode, though.

Sent using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kak1154 said:


> It wasn't Guy, it was one of the contestants. Season 15, episode 5 if you care to research. I couldn't find the guy's name after a quick Google. They probably said it on the episode, though.
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk


A few minutes of searching didn't turn up anything definitive, and I'm not paying to watch the episode on YT or Amazon, just to figure it out. I wouldn't mind knowing, but not knowing isn't going to cause me to lose any sleep.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> A few minutes of searching didn't turn up anything definitive, and I'm not paying to watch the episode on YT or Amazon, just to figure it out. I wouldn't mind knowing, but not knowing isn't going to cause me to lose any sleep.


Richard Hales most likely in the Miami region since that is where his restaurant(Blackbrick Chinese) is.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

It is Richard Hales. I found a photo where I can see the tattoo well enough to be sure it's the same.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ryan92084 said:


> Richard Hales most likely in the Miami region since that is where his restaurant(Blackbrick Chinese) is.


Ding. Ding.

It is Richard Hales. He did buy it from me.

But it's not the red, according to my records. It was one of the ones we modded with a purple dial. Weird that it looks red on TV.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Ding. Ding.
> 
> It is Richard Hales. He did buy it from me.
> 
> But it's not the red, according to my records. It was one of the ones we modded with a purple dial. Weird that it looks red on TV.


Huzzah, mystery solved. I only watched the little introductory segment so I don't know if there was a better dial shot or not.

edit: red potential Orthos picture from the interwebz
double edit: picture is from him winning that same episode

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/930104063240343552


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Ding. Ding.
> 
> It is Richard Hales. He did buy it from me.
> 
> But it's not the red, according to my records. It was one of the ones we modded with a purple dial. Weird that it looks red on TV.


Might've bought a used one. It's been known to happen...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## powerband (Oct 17, 2008)

Looks like it has a tinge if purple so the tone might have been altered because of the intense lighting on the camera set.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## powerband (Oct 17, 2008)

Gonna leave these here for a little gilt-love:





































And the over-delivered, highly appreciated detail:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Good and you









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FYI, for all of you.

NTH Exclusives (Pre-Order) - WatchGauge

Here's the deal, for anyone who needs to know....

I'm not in any rush to do another NTH Subs pre-order, considering I've got the DevilRay in pre-order/production already, and the Spectre II in assembly, both targeted for delivery at the same time, and we just delivered a second batch of Subs not that long ago. I figured I'd do the next Subs pre-order in the Spring, for the next batch of Sub designs.

But the recent Urban Gentry videos, including the revelation that he (TGV, the guy at TUG) bought a Nacken Modern Blue has sparked a surge in interest in that model.

I had been in talks with Watch Gauge, about them doing a couple of exclusive limited-editions, including the Nazario (Zerograph homage). Since Watch Gauge wanted to do a Watch Gauge-only pre-order for another batch of the Nacken Modern Blue, it made sense to also do the Nazario at the same time, and to add the Nacken Modern Black, as an alternative color choice.

If you want the Nazario, Watch Gauge will be the only source for it, and I don't know if we'll make it more than once, ever. If you want a Nacken Modern Black or Blue, this is your earliest chance to get one new, and depending on how things go, it could also be your last chance.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Swapped out the bracelet on my Amphion for a very nice jubilee.



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> FYI, for all of you.
> 
> NTH Exclusives (Pre-Order) - WatchGauge
> 
> ...


I knew it was just a matter of time, Ha Lee Wood. Just don't forget us little guys when your out there hob knob'n with the stars. :roll:

Seriously though, Congrats :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> I knew it was just a matter of time, Ha Lee Wood. Just don't forget us little guys when your out there hob knob'n with the stars. :roll:
> 
> Seriously though, Congrats :-!


Cheers.

No calls from Hollywood yet. Still just putting one foot in front of the other over here. Left-right-left, nine to the front, six to the rear, the way we learned in basic training.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

I thought i had more time to get money together!


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

KiwiWomble said:


> I thought i had more time to get money together!


Exactly what I was thinking 

But I just can't miss another opportunity to get this one.
There will be a lot of stuff up for sale the next couple of weeks, hopefully I can keep the house

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

KiwiWomble said:


> I thought i had more time to get money together!





aicolainen said:


> Exactly what I was thinking
> 
> But I just can't miss another opportunity to get this one.
> There will be a lot of stuff up for sale the next couple of weeks, hopefully I can keep the house
> ...


Sorry to spring it on you both and any others. It wasn't what I'd planned.

A few weeks back, I'd still had about 30 pieces of the NTH Subs in inventory. With the DevilRay in pre-order/production, slotted for a spring delivery, and the Spectre II due to be delivered at the same time, I realized it was folly for me to be thinking about another round of NTH Subs pre-orders now, and decided to just let them wait until spring. I turned my attention to other projects.

But...things change.

I had three different resellers place additional orders for the Subs I'd had in stock, and then the Urban Gentry video with John aired, followed closely by the unboxing video TGV did on the Nacken he'd bought for himself.

All of a sudden, I was sold out of everything, which is usually a relief, but not this time, as people have apparently been hounding John about the Nacken Modern Blue, and John has in turn been hounding me about it, looking to capitalize on the sudden interest.

He and I had already been discussing doing the Nazario as a Watch Gauge exclusive LE, and I'd already been considering making more of the Nacken Modern Black as part of the next pre-order of Subs.

Adding in the new twist of a sudden surge in demand for the Nacken Modern Blue, doing a pre-order for all three, but just through Watch Gauge, is the only thing that made any sense to me at this time.

I may or may not do another pre-order of NTH Subs in the spring. I may wait until Summer, or even fall. I don't know if that pre-order will include any more of either version of the Nacken Modern, but as I sit here, I doubt it will. Why would I make more available if we just delivered a bunch in April?

More likely, the next NTH Subs pre-order will be for the new designs, and perhaps any of the original 8 which people have clamored for, but not the Nacken Modern, in either color.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> I may or may not do another pre-order of NTH Subs in the spring. I may wait until Summer, or even fall.


Part of me glad that now NTH became more and more popular, but at the same time I won't be able to see new exciting designs for the Subs line until next Summer!


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

don't apologise!...i think you've just made a lot of people happy!

I'm currently debating another watch and now i have some motivation to pull the trigger one way or the other


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> Part of me glad that now NTH became more and more popular, but at the same time I won't be able to see new exciting designs for the Subs line until next Summer!





KiwiWomble said:


> don't apologise!...i think you've just made a lot of people happy!
> 
> I'm currently debating another watch and now i have some motivation to pull the trigger one way or the other


I continue to truly appreciate the support, and I'll probably continue to struggle to balance my desire to grow my business against the pressure I feel to remain loyal to my F71 "affordable watches" roots, and the many people here who were always the foundation of support for what I've been doing.

The thing about the Subs and pre-orders is that I fear cannibalizing my efforts or those of a reseller by trying to do too much at once.

I still have a handful of Barracudas in stock, but other than those pieces, I'm sold out. I didn't think it would work very well to do a pre-order for new Subs, at a discounted price, while we still had pieces in stock at full price.

Likewise, if John is doing a pre-order at full price, which he HAS to do as my reseller, it's not going to help him if I'm also doing a pre-order at the same time, but I'm discounting the prices on my site.

Either way (or regardless), with the DevilRay in pre-order/production, and the Spectre II in assembly, both due to be delivered in the spring, I was hurting my head trying to figure out how to squeeze in another Subs pre-order on top of them.

When I decided to hold off entirely, and focus on other things, it was a relief. The pressure has been ratcheted up again, though, with the sudden surge in interest following the TUG videos, and so John and I had to come up with a new plan, and quickly.

If all goes well, I may be able to reveal the new Subs sometime in early Spring, before we deliver the DevilRay and Spectre II, so you all can at least SEE them, in preparation for starting a pre-order on them soon after we deliver the DevilRay and SPII.

In the meantime, I'm still behind on just about everything else I need to do, as usual, and so I need to get back to it.

Talk amongst yourselves...


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Great news Doc! Will be selling everything to get the Nazario. 

Nacken’s look interesting and tempting as well! But that would be an outlay of well over $1000!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jamesezra said:


> Great news Doc! Will be selling everything to get the Nazario.
> 
> Nacken's look interesting and tempting as well! But that would be an outlay of well over $1000!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Perhaps contact John at Watch Gauge, to inquire about any large-order discounts, if your order more than one.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> Perhaps contact John at Watch Gauge, to inquire about any large-order discounts, if your order more than one.


Good idea.

Two suffices as large-orders?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jamesezra said:


> Good idea.
> 
> Two suffices as large-orders?


Depends on how big the watches are.


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

Or how large the order form is?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All screwing around aside...contact John at WG and ask what he can do for you if you buy more than one. He's a reasonable guy. I'm sure he'll think of something.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> Depends on how big the watches are.


Hahaha. Good one. Will contact him then!


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

doc, i see you've moved the date to "6", was that a big deal?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Finally sent the Squale root beer to a new owner. What would be a good (better) replacement? :think:


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> Finally sent the Squale root beer to a new owner. What would be a good (better) replacement? :think:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

KiwiWomble said:


> doc, i see you've moved the date to "6", was that a big deal?


Depends on what you mean by "big deal".

It wasn't because people complained, which I want to make clear, just to discourage people from thinking I'll be bent by social pressure.

I had access to some Miyota movements with the 6 o'clock date wheel, and decided to take advantage of that for the NTH Subs, and give people who hated the previous 4:30-ish date window position one less thing to complain about.

See? See?

I'm a giver!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


>


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

Love it at 6


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

KiwiWomble said:


> Love it at 6


As a general rule, I like it better at 6 than at 3, but in either position, if it takes the place of a marker, it has to look "right" in place of the marker, and if not, I'd rather tuck it away at 4:30-ish.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

3 or 6 for me. Hate the 4:30. But then I’m not the watch maker.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> 3 or 6 for me. Hate the 4:30. But then I'm not the watch maker.


Not looking to instigate an argument with you, in fact I totally understand what it is that people don't like about the 4:30 date window placement, but I also totally think that people who have any sort of hard-and-fast rule about it aren't thinking it completely through.

If the markers at 3 or 6 make a significant contribution to the overall dial design, replacing them with a date window will often be a worse design decision than putting the window at 4:30, particularly if the 4:30 placement can be done such that it's less conspicuous, such as using a date wheel color matched to the dial color.

For example, a big-number pilot (a pilot watch with big numbers, but only at 3, 6, 9 and 12) is ruined by replacing either 3 or 6 with the date window. It's MUCH better to put it at 4:30, match the date wheel color to the dial, and avoid upsetting the dial design by leaving the four primary markers in place.

On the other hand, if the dial and date wheel color don't match, but the date window is about the same size/shape as the hour markers, and the wheel is the same color as the markers, then replacing a marker with the date window is fine, and in fact better than sticking it at 4:30, where it's going to stand out A LOT more.

In my view, preferring one position over the other, all the time, is silly, if the preference doesn't allow for the placement to take the design into account.

4:30 > 3 or 6:









With how that window would have cut into the 3 or 6, I'll defend that 4:30 placement all day long.

6 > 4:30 (also stealthy as f**k, every 1st of the month):









With how the date window cuts into the minute track, no way in hell I'd put it at 4:30.

4:30 can also be stealthy as f**k:









Again, with where that date window would be, cutting into the 3 or 6, anyone who would willfully put a date window in either position deserves to be beaten with a tube-sock full of Invictas.

Date window placements. I think about 'em.


----------



## iceman66 (Feb 24, 2013)

No date is best date


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

iceman66 said:


> No date is best date
> View attachment 12689495


Can't argue with that.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just an FYI to all - I'm down to 4 (no-date) Barracudas.

When those are gone, they're gone. 

Apparently I've pissed a bunch of people off by making watches which bear some resemblance to other watches. 

I'll have to figure out how to live with the shame of it all, but in the meantime, I'll be sequestered, questioning all my life decisions to this point, donating my fortune to Doctors without Hats, and working out a new plan to live on WIS respect, since that's apparently now more valuable than the cash I've been working for.

Sorry I made so many of you happy with my errant ways. I led you astray, and enabled your worst, most base desires - to own attractive, well-made timepieces, without spending thousands to acquire them. I didn't realize this profession I've entered required me to hold anyone with such desires in utter contempt.

Only the fabulously wealthy, genius-intelligent, and unearthly attractive people deserve nice watches. I realize that now, albeit, way too late.

I pray for all our redemptions.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Doc,
We are just talking, I’m not one of those who gets mad because of a different opinion lol. I understand the integration of a 4:30 date because of design aesthetics. I just stated my preference. 3 or 6. But you know how people can change their minds. Maybe you come out with a badass watch that has the date at 4:30 and I just have to have it. Or maybe you come out with same watch and I don’t like it. Then my wallet gets a much needed break. Just saying.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Double post


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Nikita70 said:


> Doc,
> We are just talking, I'm not one of those who gets mad because of a different opinion lol. I understand the integration of a 4:30 date because of design aesthetics. I just stated my preference. 3 or 6. But you know how people can change their minds. Maybe you come out with a badass watch that has the date at 4:30 and I just have to have it. Or maybe you come out with same watch and I don't like it. Then my wallet gets a much needed break. Just saying.


I don't think it was we idiots in f71, I believe was another group of idiots elsewhere that made Doc question his life choices. We're his favorite group of idiots. The other group has made a decision that no watch should ever look like any other watch. And you get bonus points if your watch costs more than $10,000USD and has been out of production for a couple of decades. And it only really looks like the other watches if you squint your eyes, that's also important.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> Doc,
> We are just talking, I'm not one of those who gets mad because of a different opinion lol. I understand the integration of a 4:30 date because of design aesthetics. I just stated my preference. 3 or 6. But you know how people can change their minds. Maybe you come out with a badass watch that has the date at 4:30 and I just have to have it. Or maybe you come out with same watch and I don't like it. Then my wallet gets a much needed break. Just saying.


Did we sound mad at each other?

I wasn't mad at you. I didn't think you were mad at me.

I am tired of trying to sound less certain about things, things about which I'm very certain, because my being certain about certain things seems to offend all the uncertain people in the world.

When I post here, all my posts are factually true (verifiable certainties), true as far as I know ($h1t bro, I can only tell you what I've seen or heard, so here it is), my honest opinions (I don't know if this is true, but I truly believe it), or absurdities which I think are obvious (but sometimes, I'm not sure that's true).

The irony here is that the vast majority of what people post online, in their watch-talk, is routinely more certain-sounding, yet invariably less factually true and/or truly absurd.

I like you. I ain't mad at you. We're bros. As my bro, I feel comfortable challenging you, and all my other bros, about things you think are true, or how certain you are about those things, which may not be entirely true.

That's all the date-window talk is, when the dust settles - me, being my true self, honestly asking you to consider, if you will, my view, that many of the things we think are true - even when those things are just about our own opinions or preferences - are in fact, not really all that true, but at best, are only true sometimes, and one of my great pleasures in life is showing you things which you didn't think you'd like, but you might actually like, if you're willing to question what you think is true.

I've been doing that since I started my first thread here.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/automatic-turnoffs-rule-breaker-challenge-798677.html

That was the first thing I noticed about people here.

WIS are obsessed with creating lists, and coming up with self-imposed rules, rules which would seem to create order out of chaos, but in fact (or at least, in my honest opinion) just limit their enjoyment of this hobby.

"I don't like 4:30 date windows. Only 3 or 6 o'clock dates for me, by golly."

Really? C'mon, bro. Embrace the chaos. Let me show you some 4:30 dates that make more sense than 3 or 6 dates. Why? Not because I need to be right, and in order for me to be right, you need to be wrong, but because allowing yourself to be open to the possibility of a watch you'd like with a 4:30 date adds to the number of watches you might enjoy.

That, and it makes it easier for me to get your money.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Bonus irony points if it's Kevin Spacey.


Thanks, Doc. Just spat Captain Morgan all over my laptop screen.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Did we sound mad at each other?
> 
> I wasn't mad at you. I didn't think you were mad at me.
> 
> ...


Jeeze, Doc, there you go making sense again. Oh, the shame....


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

The date window at 3 on the Zodiacs with the triangle numbers just never made any sense to me. It absolutely destroys the symmetry of the dial, period. I'm a no-date guy when possible, but if there has to be a date, it can't be at 3 or 6. It just can't.

And no date should ever be at 6 for that matter. That just looks weird.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

To each their own, for me a watch needs to provide at least a date. A day with date is the most I'd want a watch to provide in functionality. I can't stand Chronographs and all the other various watch functions like moon phases. It's loved by some or many I'm sure but does nothing for me. Also a watch needs to have a hacking seconds hand. As far as where the placement of the date or day windows are is a matter of design coordination with the dial markers and use of either plain markers or Arabic numbers. Gotta have minutes markers. The hours as numbers are less important as the need for immediate processing of the time at a glance without eye searching for the hour and minute hands against a cluttered or confusing dial arrangement. Even more so in night time to discern the orientation of the 12 and quarters. Some designs work great at 3, 4:30, and 6. Some designs end up making the placements of the date window an afterthought. Given that the movements of ETA, Miyota, and others pretty much have fixed locations of the date window based on the date rings and these locations will vary based on the size of the dials and overall watch size. So I've ranted enough and likely bored everyone to death. But I love this forum, great opinions and observations. Cheers y'all!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

In advance of whatever Wednesday, and to highlight my comments above here is an example of a watch with date that works for me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ Can we expand on that for a second?

I would concur that occasions occur..occasionally...where I need the date, and a glance at a watch could help. I usually ask the person requesting the date for whatever form I'm filling out, what is the date? 

Furthermore, I'm 47 and simply can't read a date window on most watches. And I have 20/20 vision at range, I was a pilot, but can't read those little numbers outside of very bright light/sunlight without glasses.

Finally, re: hacking. Is this really a thing? I'm in the Navy, and time is important, but rarely (never) have I relied on a mechanical watch for precision to seconds. When I put on my watch in the morning, especially if it's wound down and I have to set it, I look at my bedstand clock (plugged in and accurate) and guess how close to the next minute it is, and then set my watch in the vicinity. It could be from 1 sec to 1 min off at that point. Between my watch, the clock in my office, and the clock on my computer, none are really in sync. So is hacking really that important?

I'm not saying it isn't. I'm asking why it is. I use my watch all the time, for everything from when it my next meeting, to how long have I been underwater, to how long until I have to pull the tater tots out of the oven. I've never found I needed precision within more than a minute or two. And I use an alarm clock on my bedstand for nighttime time-telling.

Anyway.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ I don't mean to diminish your opinion if it came out that way. I just really wonder how useful and important date and hacking are to an average watch user. For all I know you're an astronomer, and precise time is vitally important! Or maybe you just don't want to burn your crepes? I'm just curious.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All I know is now I'm hungry for tater tots. 


Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> All I know is now I'm hungry for tater tots.


Doc's non sequitur FTW!


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

I like my tater tots with the crunch at 6 o'clock.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Tater tots are a waste of good potato that could have been delicious french fries.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

It's the anal precisionist in me as an Electrical Engineer that I need my seconds to hack and the watch to be accurate with a date. It's these little things in life that provide great pleasure each and every time I get a call to fix somebody's electrical problem because tater tots got stuck in a toaster.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

dmjonez said:


> I don't think it was we idiots in f71, I believe was another group of idiots elsewhere that made Doc question his life choices. We're his favorite group of idiots. The other group has made a decision that no watch should ever look like any other watch. And you get bonus points if your watch costs more than $10,000USD and has been out of production for a couple of decades. And it only really looks like the other watches if you squint your eyes, that's also important.


Most Favored Idiot Status!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)

vmarks said:


> Most Favored Idiot Status!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


MFIS? I'll add it to my signature, but I'm sure those who know me might think of other words to plug into the MF portion of the acronym.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Please don't tell the other idiots I have favorites.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Doc, I’m so mad at you I’m probably going to preorder the Nazario. I like you Doc but my bank balance does not. Just saying.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 12693637


Anyone else having forum issues today?

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

^Extreme wonkiness today. Could not even quote you Doc or post pics. What tha?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I've had to refresh the forum several times just to post, and a few times I just gave up trying.

If this keeps up, I'll be forced to spend time with my wife and children.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Yep. Could not post any pics today along with other wonkyness


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just to see if it will work. Stuck this one in the mail today, traded for something different.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Barracuda - now sold out on my website.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Congrats! Didnt take long!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Congrats! Didnt take long!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks, even though from my chair, it always feels like it takes for - wait for it - ever.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

WatchGauge has 1 left.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Yesterdays picture of my Cerberus.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Just to see if it will work. Stuck this one in the mail today, traded for something different.


I hope MikeyT doesn't mind me revealing, but I'm on the other side of the trade. He's getting a very special Acionna. It is such an amazing watch, but it struggles to find wrist time among my many blue casual to business casual alternatives. I felt like if it ever left my collection, it would have to be in a special way, for a special purpose.

Well, a trade for another one of doc's watches--one that I coveted for a long time and was stupid not to preorder (I think I was cash-poor at the time) seemed to be an appropriate departure. I think the Scorpene will get more beater-type wrist time, and I'm super psyched to try out the uber-thin 300m diver.

Thanks Mike, and thanks again, Chris!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Thanks Kyle, it appears that the Acionna may arrive sooner than USPS estimated. I'm past due to have a blue watch here again.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## Luciano Oliveira (Nov 9, 2017)

Barracuda - now sold out on my website.

Hello everyone, new here so a bit lost yet. Please, what is your website? Thankful.
Luciano Oliveira.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Luciano Oliveira said:


> Barracuda - now sold out on my website.
> 
> Hello everyone, new here so a bit lost yet. Please, what is your website? Thankful.
> Luciano Oliveira.


No worries, Luciano. On some level, I think we're all a bit lost. But the good news is we're lost together.

Janis Trading Company


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Perdendosi said:


> I hope MikeyT doesn't mind me revealing, but I'm on the other side of the trade. He's getting a very special Acionna. It is such an amazing watch, but it struggles to find wrist time among my many blue casual to business casual alternatives. I felt like if it ever left my collection, it would have to be in a special way, for a special purpose.
> 
> Well, a trade for another one of doc's watches--one that I coveted for a long time and was stupid not to preorder (I think I was cash-poor at the time) seemed to be an appropriate departure. I think the Scorpene will get more beater-type wrist time, and I'm super psyched to try out the uber-thin 300m diver.
> 
> Thanks Mike, and thanks again, Chris!


And here it is:



Thanks, Kyle, and thanks, Doc!


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

The bad new is that I need another Cali dial watch like I need a hole in my head (and bank account).

The good new is that I have something to suggest to my wife for Christmas.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*squint* hang on, on those images it looks like the Nazario dial has a regular pattern texture, kinda like a cloth weave.

Is the dial patterned?


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

X2-Elijah said:


> *squint* hang on, on those images it looks like the Nazario dial has a regular pattern texture, kinda like a cloth weave.
> 
> Is the dial patterned?


Good eye! I saw this render a few times already and never noticed it until you mentioned it. Either it's extremely subtle in the drawing, or I need my eyes checked.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> *squint* hang on, on those images it looks like the Nazario dial has a regular pattern texture, kinda like a cloth weave.
> 
> Is the dial patterned?


Waffle texture, like the Oberon.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Usps is playing with my emotions. o|


----------



## Luciano Oliveira (Nov 9, 2017)

docvail said:


> Luciano Oliveira said:
> 
> 
> > Barracuda - now sold out on my website.
> ...


Thank you so much.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

docvail said:


> Waffle texture, like the Oberon.





















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 5minutestobeeroclock (Dec 2, 2017)

Any plans for doing another run of the NTH Nacken Vintage in black/blue?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

5minutestobeeroclock said:


> Any plans for doing another run of the NTH Nacken Vintage in black/blue?


No current plans, but I never say never.

I made every version of the Subs in numbers according to their pre-order sales, and in the case of the Santa Cruz and Nacken Vintage Black, I made them again as part of the second round of Subs.

Two of the models people have asked me about recently were ones where it took me a while to sell the last 10-20 pieces.

Even for the ones that sold "better", it's very difficult for me to justify bothering to make 10 more, just to satisfy the demand for a few more pieces of that version, knowing that I'll have a hard time selling them all, and the longer I have them in stock, the more it depresses the used market values on the ones we've sold, especially if being long on inventory makes me tempted to put them on sale.

I'd rather make 20-50 pieces of a new version that will sell more quickly than a second/third batch of an older version.

We've got a pre-order on the Nacken Modern Black, Nacken Modern Blue, and the Nazario going on Watchgauge.com. I don't know if I'll make any more of those available again after that pre-order ends. If you want one of those models, now is the time to get one.

Here's how this works:

- I make 300-500 of something, and it takes me a year (or worse, longer) to sell them all. I'm not overly eager to make another 300-500. If there was enough demand for another 300-500, I'd have known it the first time around, and I'd have made more than 300-500.

- I make 300 of something, and they sell out in less than a year, but if I want more, I have to make another 300, minimum, which I'm not eager to do, because if there was enough demand for 600, total, I'd have known it when I was making 300, and I'd have at least made 500, so there's no way in hell I'm making 600 total when I couldn't justify making 500 in the first place. I'll get back around to whenever I can't think of anything better to do.

It'll be the same for the Watch Gauge models. Let's say we only end up getting enough pre-orders to justify making 20 of the Nazario, then that's how many we'll make. I doubt we'll go back and make more because three guys ask about it six months from now.

It really doesn't matter how many people ask me to make more of something. It will never be enough to get me enthusiastic about the idea, unless it's dozens and dozens of people, clamoring, for a while. The noise has to be so loud I can't ignore it.

If people THINK they want something, they should buy it in pre-order, or when I have it in stock. By the time I'm sold out, I'm thinking about other things, and often disgusted at how long it took me to move the last 10-20 pieces of something. I don't even want to think about it, nor hear about it, once they're gone.

Mine is a MICRO brand. We don't make the same model forever. More often than not, it's 100-500 pieces, and then we're done, forever. It's better for us to make too few pieces of something than to make too many. I'd rather disappoint three guys who just discovered the brand today than the 300 guys who pre-ordered.

I don't know if I'll make any more of any of the first 13 Subs models again. We had a pre-order for all of them, and I had inventory on all of them available when pre-orders and production ended. It took me a few months to sell through it all, but now that inventory is gone.

I'll likely/maybe/probably do another pre-order, for the next batch of Subs, in the spring. We'll make however many of each model based on how many I think we can sell without waiting around for a year for people to find the brand or find the money.

If you think you MIGHT be interested, make sure you've got $500 ready come spring, and don't do something silly, like spending it on another watch from some other brand.

In the meantime, there's always watchrecon.com. I'd recommend setting up an alert. CMFord just sold a minty Nacken Vintage Black 3 days ago, and cheap, at $450. Had you offered him more, you'd have had it. He started out asking $525.

That, to me, is the ultimate metric. Until people can sell an NTH Sub, instantly, for at least $500, I don't see why I'd make more of any of the ones which are sold out. If the demand was high enough to warrant me making more of any of them, the used ones would be selling more quickly, for higher prices.

https://www.watchrecon.com/?brand=nth&last_days=0


----------



## 5minutestobeeroclock (Dec 2, 2017)

Wow thats a long answer thank you. Sadly I know the brand only Since Last Week so had no chance on getting one of the vintage. I will get one on the Used market. I totally understand your Point of view.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

5minutestobeeroclock said:


> Wow thats a long answer thank you. Sadly I know the brand only Since Last Week so had no chance on getting one of the vintage. I will get one on the Used market. I totally understand your Point of view.


I only do short answers and long answers.

And I've been out of short answers for about 5 years, and counting...

PS/Edit - Sign up for our email newsletter on our website, follow us on FB and IG, and check in here once in a while. Guaranteed, you won't miss the announcements we put out about the next batch of pre-orders.


----------



## sevens (Nov 2, 2010)

Do you have real photos of Nazario ?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

sevens said:


> Do you have real photos of Nazario ?


Mmmmm. Popcorn.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Mmmmm. Popcorn.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My daughter loves popcorn, me not so much. The Watches that Jelli built for auction had what I assume was the inspiration for this watch(Nazario). I'm sure a picture of the watch (with disclaimers etc) would at least give some idea of what it would look like.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jlow28 said:


> My daughter loves popcorn, me not so much. The Watches that Jelli built for auction had what I assume was the inspiration for this watch(Nazario). I'm sure a picture of the watch (with disclaimers etc) would at least give some idea of what it would look like.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


You didn't see doc's side-by-side of his Sub renders and delivered? Nearly identical. WYSIWYG.

And if he had them, dontcha think he'd share them?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

No real life photos.

3D renders.










Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Here's the one-off that Jelli built. I like it a lot, except for the bezel background color, which is a greenish/brownish grey that doesn't match the rest of the palette and triggers a narrow range of my OCD. That said, as a Cali dial fan, it was a rare opportunity to pick up a special watch.

The Nazario's bezel is a more neutral grey, and is much closer to the original feel of the Zerographe. I'm working hard on justifying a Nazario in the next 10 days.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> Here's the one-off that Jelli built. I like it a lot, except for the bezel background color, which is a greenish/brownish grey that doesn't match the rest of the palette and triggers a narrow range of my OCD. That said, as a Cali dial fan, it was a rare opportunity to pick up a special watch.
> 
> The Nazario's bezel is a more neutral grey, and is much closer to the original feel of the Zerographe. I'm working hard on justifying a Nazario in the next 10 days.
> 
> View attachment 12709105


The last I saw, Ryan W on FB owned the Jelligraph, but I saw he was trying to sell it. I'm guessing you bought it from him?

You are correct that the bezel shade is a little different than what we're planning, also the Nazario will have a waffle dial and cathedral hands, but otherwise, yeah, it's as close as we're going to get until we get a real Nazario to photograph.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> The last I saw, Ryan W on FB owned the Jelligraph, but I saw he was trying to sell it. I'm guessing you bought it from him?
> 
> You are correct that the bezel shade is a little different than what we're planning, also the Nazario will have a waffle dial and cathedral hands, but otherwise, yeah, it's as close as we're going to get until we get a real Nazario to photograph.


Yep, as a fan of quirky dials and slim subs, seemed like too good an opportunity to pass up.

I'm especially liking the waffle dial and cathedral hands on the Nazario, since it maintains that Zerographe feel while adding some nice touches and variations that distinguish it from straight-up homages.

Not that Zerographe homages are particularly common - the RXW Zeromaster is the only other one I know of that's not home-built, and they're about as rare as hen's teeth (and almost as attractive). All the more reason to jump on a Nazario and head off that missed-watch regret we all know.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I was aware of the RXW, and obviously it's a much more faithful reproduction of the Zerograph. Not at all interested in revisiting the whole "homage" debate every day, but it makes for a good comparison to the Nazario, which is more of a modern re-interpretation. 

Semi-related...recent semi-ugly discussions had me briefly considering the potential value in creating a brand specifically to do no-apologies high-quality design knockoffs of overpriced luxury brand models. I was thinking, if people are going to say the Näcken is just a Pelagos copy, maybe I should just go ahead and make an exact 1:1 design copy of the Pelagos, including identically sized and shaped titanium case with ceramic bezel, with Swiss movement, and sell it for $800-$1000. 

I doubt I will, but part of me really wants to, both for profit and for spite. Most popular models in the luxury range could be easily knocked off, with good quality, and sold profitably, for a fraction of their price. There's something intrinsically silly in how this industry and market work to sustain nonsense. 


Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

I don't have any California dials. I was just thinking of looking into these more when Doc revealed the Nazario.I'm trying to see if I can make room in my budget for another watch. I wasn't planning on buying another NTH Sub, and if I was to do so, I really wanted to jump on the Barracuda. This Nazario is equally tempting, maybe even more so.I guess all I'm really trying to say here is:Looks great Doc! Great work as always!!!


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

Chris, I think you're on to something, what would be better than making money _and_ ticking off the haters. Knowing how nice your watches are, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Pelagos form you.



docvail said:


> I was aware of the RXW, and obviously it's a much more faithful reproduction of the Zerograph. Not at all interested in revisiting the whole "homage" debate every day, but it makes for a good comparison to the Nazario, which is more of a modern re-interpretation.
> 
> Semi-related...recent semi-ugly discussions had me briefly considering the potential value in creating a brand specifically to do no-apologies high-quality design knockoffs of overpriced luxury brand models. I was thinking, if people are going to say the Näcken is just a Pelagos copy, maybe I should just go ahead and make an exact 1:1 design copy of the Pelagos, including identically sized and shaped titanium case with ceramic bezel, with Swiss movement, and sell it for $800-$1000.
> 
> ...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Semi-related...recent semi-ugly discussions had me briefly considering the potential value in creating a brand specifically to do no-apologies high-quality design knockoffs of overpriced luxury brand models. I was thinking, if people are going to say the Näcken is just a Pelagos copy, maybe I should just go ahead and make an exact 1:1 design copy of the Pelagos, including identically sized and shaped titanium case with ceramic bezel, with Swiss movement, and sell it for $800-$1000.
> 
> I doubt I will, but part of me really wants to, both for profit and for spite. Most popular models in the luxury range could be easily knocked off, with good quality, and sold profitably, for a fraction of their price. There's something intrinsically silly in how this industry and market work to sustain nonsense.


Do it! But under a similarly 'homage' brand/front, to claim plausible deniability just in case. Maybe something like a brand "Stew & Mewey" under a store/umbrella of "Banis Dealing" 

On a more serious note.. You could do it, sure, but you'd also have to advertise & grow the word-of-mouth force all over again - might be a bit more difficult, tbh, with pure homages... At least that's the perception that one gets from how discussions usually go in f71/f2. Then again, if wus would not be the primary market for the BD-SM watches, who knows, might be actually easier to sell stuff.


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

Talking of the bezel color : 
yeah faded real steel colored and textured pvd bezel insert will look great - it was one of the things i really liked about Nacken vintage black . And that textured dial..


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Talking about super rare RXW...

Recently, I found a website where Japanese people use to make auctions inside Japan. https://auctions.yahoo.co.jp is the place to go. And I saw plenty of these rare gems are still being flipped everyday. They just rarely got out of Japan border. I wish I knew Japanese...

And talk about the super rare of super rare, last week Ken himself sold a 10 year-old NOS RXW Zero-grapher. Yes, ZEROGRAPH, with that chronograph pusher:
https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/h269348375


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

s.z said:


> Talking of the bezel color :
> yeah faded real steel colored and textured pvd bezel insert will look great - it was one of the things i really liked about Nacken vintage black . And that textured dial..


Only because sometimes my OCD gets the better of me...

Just so we're clear, the dial is textured (waffle).

The bezel insert color will be, I dunno what to call it...light gun metal gray? I think we're going for something 1/2 to 1 shade darker than "bare metal", but trying to avoid the green-brown tones you sometimes get with the lighter gray PVD colors, something people mentioned with the Nacken Vintage Black.

I don't think the Nacken Vintage Black bezel IS green/brown at all, but I get that it often looks that way in pics.

I think we might go for one increment of difference with the Nazario. I don't expect that to make complete sense. I've got a book of samples from the PVD/DLC supplier, so it may only make sense to me. Trust me, it'll work out fine.

The bezel surface - I hadn't really thought about it as "textured" per se. With DLC/PVD coatings, the choices for surface finish are polished (Yuck. Who am I, MC Blingtastic?), blasted (cool, but as soon as you ding it, the OCD kicks in, and you stare at that dot for - wait for it - ever), or brushed.

We go with brushed. I think it's the most durable, or at least, it hides dings and scratches better than blasted, even though I think the even, matte, less reflective blasted finish is actually more of what I'd want, if it wasn't hard to keep pristine.

I'm still surprised it (the Nazario) has been as well-received as its been. It was one of 6-8 new Subs designs we ginned up, and it was at the bottom of my "which ones are worth making" list. I honestly didn't think very many people would like it.

Watch geeks - sometimes it seems like they only exist to prove me wrong.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Metallman said:


> Chris, I think you're on to something, *what would be better than making money and ticking off the haters.* Knowing how nice your watches are, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Pelagos form you.


That question was rhetorical, right?

I dunno...part of the appeal of the idea is just as an experiment.

Copying a design isn't hard to do. I could just tell my factory to make a 1:1 design copy of the case, bezel, dial, hands, bracelet, etc, make it out of titanium and ceramic, etc, and put a Swiss movement in it, like an ETA, or STP, or a Soprod, or Eterna, whatever.

They could do it, no problem (I'm like, 95% sure). I can ballpark the likely production costs in my head. I figure the final retail would be $800-$1000 with an ETA or STP, and maybe a little more with a Soprod or Eterna.

Part of me just wants to see it. How close could they get? How good would it be? Close enough/good enough to fool people in a blind test, if such a thing could be done?

The haters will hate it. In that scenario, I can't say I'd blame them. At least it would give them a better reason to hate me, not that they seem to need one.

The question is...how many would buy it, really? It challenges the talk people make about how comfortable/uncomfortable they are with homages which they feel are "too" close to the "real thing".

It's all well and good to poo-poo an Alpha Daytona when you have no intention of buying one anyway, because of the movement, but are you SURE I couldn't tempt you with a really well-done $800-$1200 Pelagos clone?

That's really only a half step to two steps removed from the NTH Subs, which were deliberately made "different", and, in my view, "better", but regardless, how can you argue against a well-made Amphion for $600, as an alternative to saving up $100k for a MilSub and waiting for the next one to hit the auction block?

Among the people who "get" that, I wonder how many would also "get" an $800 Pelagos. How big a logical leap is it from one to the other?

How strong is the market demand for something like that, and all the other things which would logically follow - a $1500 Monaco or Carrera or Autavia homage, a $1500 Speedmaster or Daytona, a $600 Milgauss or Aqua Terra? The possibilities are endless.

Is the demand enough to justify investing the time, energy and money into starting a new brand, just to do THAT?

I dunno, but it's something to think about...

(^^^Almost entirely rhetorical questions, by the way.)



X2-Elijah said:


> Do it! But under a similarly 'homage' brand/front, to claim plausible deniability just in case. Maybe something like a brand "Stew & Mewey" under a store/umbrella of "Banis Dealing"
> 
> On a more serious note.. You could do it, sure, but you'd also have to advertise & grow the word-of-mouth force all over again - might be a bit more difficult, tbh, with pure homages... At least that's the perception that one gets from how discussions usually go in f71/f2. Then again, if wus would not be the primary market for the BD-SM watches, who knows, might be actually easier to sell stuff.


Uhm...did you mean to go "BD-SM" with that, or was that just an unfortunate acronym?

It would definitely NOT be under either of my existing brands. I'm not sure if I'd put effort into hiding my involvement, or promoting it. That could cut either way, I suppose.

Doing it under the Janis umbrella is "easier", or at least, simpler, in terms of managing it all.

Asking "who's it for" is actually a money question, and honestly, I'm not sure.

Certainly some WIS would have no problem with it, so there's that group.

Among the mainstream non-WIS, there are those who just buy what they like when they see it*, so getting them to buy it is just a matter of getting it in front of enough of them, which isn't easy to do, but is at least easy to understand.

That leaves WIS who might have a problem with it, and non-WIS who'd need to have it explained to them.

Getting in front of WIS is easy/cheaper than mass-marketing, so I'd have to figure out if the sub-segment of the sub-segment is big enough. There's no way the traditional retail channels would be into it, and I don't foresee me efficiently breaking into the alternative retail channels with it.

I suppose that's really the limiting factor, and why it may not make sense. We may not like it, but the truth is the WIS community is a self-policing community, and the police in this community can be brutal bastards.

*True story - this past Friday evening, my wife and I attended a party, and ended up in a conversation with another couple. My wife knew the other wife from being involved in our kids' school, but it took me 2 seconds to spot the guy's Omega Planet Ocean 2500, 42mm, only my favorite watch, ever.









I swear to God, this is EXACTLY how that conversation went...

ME: [Walking over to join them]: Hi Jennifer. Good to see you. [Turning to her husband] Hi, I'm Chris.

HIM: [Something, probably his name, too loud in there to hear it, and I'm already looking at his wrist anyway, because...]

ME: Nice Planet Ocean!

HIM: Huh?

ME: [Louder] - NICE PLANET OCEAN!

HIM: HUH?

ME: [Walking around my wife, so I can stand next to him, and stop shouting]: Your watch. The Omega Planet Ocean. I like it.

HIM: ...[looks at his wrist]...is that what this is?

ME: ...huh?

HIM: Is that what this is called?

ME: [Concentrating really hard on not letting my face betray my growing sense of disgust at what I know is about to happen]...uhm...yeah.

HIM: I had no idea. It doesn't say that anywhere on it. I just bought it because I liked how it looked.

ME: That's the Omega Planet Ocean 2500, 42mm, inspired by the vintage 1967 Omega Seamaster 300, the iconic tool watch issued to combat divers by the British Ministry of Defense. It's an icon, and it's my favorite watch, ever.

MY WIFE: [Adopting that tone she takes when she feels she needs to step in and explain my bizarre behavior to "normal" people] - Chris makes watches...

HIM: Really? Wait...what? You MAKE watches? How is that possible? What does that mean?

ME: [Wishing I could go back in time to the point right before I walked over here]...uhm, yeah...that's what I do. I own a business making watches [holding up my wrist, showing my Nacken Modern Blue].

HIM: Wow. How is that possible? Explain it to me...

It kind of went on like that for the next few minutes, more or less how you'd expect it to go. I explained "microbrands" and "watchgeeks" to him, and stumbled my way through a dumbed-down, non-WIS explanation of how the NTH Subs and his PO both relate back to military tool watches of the 60's, the pointlessness of my even bothering becoming apparent to me halfway through it.

We live in a "well-monied" area, by which I mean my wife and I are in the "1%" - the 1% who don't belong here in this absurdly wealthy zip code, because I'm not a hedge-fund manager, and my wife is in the business of keeping the hedge-fund manager's wives looking 20 years younger than they really are, because none of them work. We live on one of the worst streets in one of the most expensive zip codes on the planet.

The schools are awesome, of course. The things we do for our kids, amirite?

Sure enough, he tells me he "manages money" (wow, huge surprise, I did NOT see that coming - every fleece-zipper-vest wearing, perfectly-coifed Dad who never bothers to look up from his phone at his son's cub scout meeting or basketball game that I meet is a money manager; they're a dime-a-dozen cliche in this town), and goes on to tell me about the watches his partners have, and how he once ended up in a meeting with some other insanely wealthy dude who happened to be wearing the same watch, and the good laugh they enjoyed at that amazing coincidence.

Omega 2500. What do they cost, used? $3500? I couldn't sell my car for that much. This guy had no idea what it was, and he bought it new, on a whim. He just bought it because he liked how it looks.

I can't even.

Anyhoo...clearly there's a market for stuff that people like, no matter what it costs. I wish I knew how to get my stuff into those stores.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Chillin with Azores today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## jjohn73 (Dec 26, 2014)

I like the way the PO 2500 looks too 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^^^Only because I can't close up shop for the night on that down, bitter-sounding note...

On occasion, watch-geeks I don't really "know" will reach out to me privately and say shockingly nice things, things about how much they love what I'm doing, expressing words of encouragement, and strangest of all, suggesting I'm somehow "inspiring".

Yeah, I don't get it either, but it's happened, and it always fills me with an awkward, icky, not-sure-what-to-say-here, sort of humble feeling.

Maybe a month or so ago, someone reached out to apologize for not pre-ordering a DevilRay, because he was dealing with some personal/family issues. He told me about them, I'm not repeating them, but again, I was blown away.

No one owes me an explanation for not buying something, much less an apology.

We talked a bit. He's someone I only "know" through social media, but after we finished, I looked in my records - he's never actually bought anything from me, nor do I think he's bought anything of mine, even used.

He just felt "connected" to me because we're friends through social media, and I guess I'm "someone" in his world, because he's into watches, and I make them, which, still, is mind-blowing to me, because, in my mind, I'm no one, no matter what you're into.

Last week delivered one of those moments that force us to check ourselves and re-calibrate our perspective on things. A repeat customer and member of this forum posted this to my business page on Facebook:
_
"Chris, we had the memorial for my wife today who died from breast cancer. Although she did not share my love of watches, I wanted to let you know that of all my watches, I wore my red Orthos today in her honor. Red was her favorite color and she always looked so beautiful in red. I just wanted to let you know that although this is a hobby, sometimes even something like a watch can have great sentiment. Thank you for making such wonderful timepieces and in particular the red orthos that will always be special to me."
_
Most of the time, I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing, or why. This can be a lonely, frustrating business with few rewards, monetary or otherwise. I admit that I'm frequently caught up in things which are essentially negative-energy stuff - online arguments over homages, "Swiss" vs whatever, letting my competitive nature get the best of me, not being my best self, losing sight of the big picture, and forgetting what my true purpose in all of this is.

I called him up to see how he was doing. Amazingly, and truly inspiring, he sounded pretty okay, all things considered. I had no idea what to talk about. We talked about watches, and the forum, and life, the meaning of it all, etc.

I felt like I made a friend, but still - that icky, awkward feeling that I don't deserve that sort of participation in someone else's life, just because they bought a watch I made.

This is a business, one which hopefully supports me and my family well enough, but does so by delivering whatever happiness it and I can to our customers. That's it. End-o-story. Nothing else really matters if I can just stick to that. If that's all I can accomplish, so be it. I want us all - me, my wife, my kids, and all of you - to be happy, that's all. Give me some money, I'll send you a little happiness in a box. It's all I got.

I wouldn't mind making a little more money at it, sure, but please, don't mistake anything I say as bitterness about what I'm doing. I am incredibly fortunate I can do this.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Autavia homage!! Yes! Like my Dan Henry 1963, but a mechanical would rock.


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

you are great, Chris
in short


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

It's your willingness to share and invite us along for the ride that I, for one, feel a connection that isn't available on any other major or micro brand forum. As icky as it makes things it's your own fault. You leave the front door open and we come wandering in like cows to a salt lick. But it is the fraternity of watch nerd-dom that we find here that can't be found anywhere else. Cheers to you Doc!! Just waiting for my black Devil Ray to show up so my wife can yell at me some more about those stupid watches blah blah blah . Oh and I do have an Omega Planet Ocean with the 8900 co-axial movement which I love! Sold the 1994 Seamaster Prof Blue Wave dial I had earlier this year for almost what I originally paid for it so that was a great investment of my time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

First watch my wife said she may need to "borrow" from me.|>








My son (6yo) beat her to it .

I enjoy what you got going on sir. :-!


----------



## Kulprit (Oct 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Anyhoo...clearly there's a market for stuff that people like, no matter what it costs. I wish I knew how to get my stuff into those stores.


Put an Omega label on it.

Unfortunately, while he gave you an explicit reason for why he bought the PO--he liked the way it looked--there was also an implicit reason he didn't mention (and maybe wasn't consciously aware of) - luxury brand appeal. I doubt very seriously he'd have bought the same watch had said "Citizen" on the dial and cost $150.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Kulprit said:


> Put an Omega label on it.
> 
> Unfortunately, while he gave you an explicit reason for why he bought the PO--he liked the way it looked--there was also an implicit reason he didn't mention (and maybe wasn't consciously aware of) - luxury brand appeal. I doubt very seriously he'd have bought the same watch had said "Citizen" on the dial and cost $150.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Or the Planet Orient.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

A. We love you, man.

B. Don't forget what started it all for you: the dog. It's all about the dog. When you feel crappy, whatever, get a dog. You can be the biggest ....... in the world. A watch can't fix that, but a dog can.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

MikeyT said:


> Or the Planet Orient.


Or the Ocean Planet.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> Or the Ocean Planet.


That's deep!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

"Baselworld Preview: Bulova Announces Reissue of the Oceanographer "Devil Diver"" via @watchville
https://api.watchville.co/v2/posts/31836/click

BTW, Bulova announced a remake of a vintage Devil Diver to be at Baselworld next year. The case design looks familiar.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> "Baselworld Preview: Bulova Announces Reissue of the Oceanographer "Devil Diver"" via @watchville
> https://api.watchville.co/v2/posts/31836/click
> 
> BTW, Bulova announced a remake of a vintage Devil Diver to be at Baselworld next year. The case design looks familiar.
> ...


Meh. It's no pork good people...










Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> A. We love you, man.
> 
> B. Don't forget what started it all for you: the dog. It's all about the dog. When you feel crappy, whatever, get a dog. You can be the biggest ....... in the world. A watch can't fix that, but a dog can.


Very well said! And yes we LOVE you Chris










Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, this.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Kulprit said:


> Put an Omega label on it.
> 
> Unfortunately, while he gave you an explicit reason for why he bought the PO--he liked the way it looked--there was also an implicit reason he didn't mention (and maybe wasn't consciously aware of) - luxury brand appeal. I doubt very seriously he'd have bought the same watch had said "Citizen" on the dial and cost $150.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That's 100% right. He was looking to spend $4-6000 on a watch and he liked that one. I work with lots of them. They come to me and ask what they should buy for their first nice watch. $1000-1500? Tag, Ball, Hamilton, Longines. Higher? Omega or Breitling. Those aren't the answers I want to give, but it's what they want to hear.

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## sevens (Nov 2, 2010)

Hi Doc

I have heard that you limited some particular model to small quantity of 10 (Amphion Blue Vintage No-date; Amphion Black Vintage with date, Amphion Black Modern with date). 

Could you pls share the reasons and production spreadsheet (if it is not confidential information) ? 

Thanks.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sevens said:


> Hi Doc
> 
> I have heard that you limited some particular model to small quantity of 10 (Amphion Blue Vintage No-date; Amphion Black Vintage with date, Amphion Black Modern with date).
> 
> ...


They're made in proportion to how well they sell in pre-order.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Wow, a lot of good info the last few pages!

First, I think it's really cool, Doc, that you wear your own watches. Perhaps that's a blinding flash of the obvious, but I was actually quite curious.

Second, I think it's natural for a customer to feel an affinity with a creator of some object that has special value to him/her. For example, I surf and I like to ride a few different brands of surfboards: Channel Islands and Rawsons. If I ever ran into Al Merrick or Pat Rawson, I'd want to shake their hand, buy them a beer, and let them know just how much their products have meant to me over the years...how much joy their products have provided. I'm not quite there with watches just yet, but what I think is special about NTH compared to, say, Seiko, is that I can come on here and chat up the guy who is actually building this thing on my wrist that tells time. I'm not sure how to do that with the big brands.

Finally, I think this thread would really benefit from more pictures of the turquoise Devil Ray.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> ...I think it's natural for a customer to feel an affinity with a creator of some object that has special value to him/her. For example, I surf and I like to ride a few different brands of surfboards: Channel Islands and Rawsons. If I ever ran into Al Merrick or Pat Rawson, I'd want to shake their hand, buy them a beer, and let them know just how much their products have meant to me over the years...how much joy their products have provided. I'm not quite there with watches just yet, but what I think is special about NTH compared to, say, Seiko, is that I can come on here and chat up the guy who is actually building this thing on my wrist that tells time. I'm not sure how to do that with the big brands.


I'll get you Phil Knight's email...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> First, I think it's really cool, Doc, that you wear your own watches. Perhaps that's a blinding flash of the obvious, but I was actually quite curious.


I've worn other people's watches, too, and I still get tempted. There are always a half dozen or more watches "on my radar".

But the sad truth is none of my watches get worn very much, because I work from home, don't wear one while I'm working, and only leave the house a few times per week, rarely for more than a couple hours. I tend to wear whatever's new, or just whatever's sitting on my desk or shelf since earlier in the week.

It doesn't make sense for me to own more than two dozen of my own watches, much less own anyone else's watches. I tend to sell them off when I realize they're not being worn, and I feel more guilty about not wearing them than I feel attachment to them.

As I sit here, there are half a dozen watches floating around my office, because I don't have room for them all in my case, plus I've got three sample Aevig Valkyrs I keep for Chip, to display or sell at shows, and maybe 5-6 Melbournes from Sujain, for the same purpose. I've gotten watches on loan from Nick at Orion, and Justin at Blacklist.

None of them ever get worn.

I don't know if he's on this forum, but another WIS I know arranged for his friend to buy my Aevig Huldra. JohnnyBaldJunior bought my Cobra de Calibre. I gave my Melbourne Flinders to a friend as a gift. 3pointRoss bought my Chinese Mech-Watch double-crown project watch.

I think Ismav or maybe mpsabdullah bought one of my Riccardos (I could be remembering wrong). I traded my black Spectre to the owner of Doughboy Watches, Tom Lovelund, who also lives here in Philly, and did the outdoor photography for the Phantom, in partial payment for his photos.

I've sold, gifted, donated or traded away at least 30 watches over the last 4+ years, maybe 40, if you count stuff like the Jellimods, almost all going to WIS.

It feels better to know someone else is enjoying them than feeling like they're going to waste sitting in my case. I like seeing people post those wrist-shots, and thinking, "that's cool - that used to be mine, but now it's over in the UK with Baldy", or wherever with whomever. Part of me hopes when they put it on, they think, "I bought this minty, and cheap, from Chris. He's a solid dude."

I may never get to travel to all these places, but there's a part of me in over 50 countries around the world.

Plus, I'm huge with the Vikings in Scandinavia.



Toonces said:


> Finally, I think this thread would really benefit from more pictures of the turquoise Devil Ray.


Talk to @SteamJ.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

To be very honest, one of the biggest things that drew me into your watches was some posting or thread here on WUS about either (or both) the struggles you went through with the Riccardo and/or how you got into making watches. I don't remember if that was all in the same thread or if it was in 2 different threads.

In any case, I liked the story. I liked the honesty. I liked that you were (and still are) so willing to share so much with us. Not just the good stuff, but the difficulties, the struggles and frustrations as well.

I found the forum WUS when I was looking at buying my first "real" watch. For me the definition of "real" was something more than $200, and soon morphed into something with an automatic mechanical movement. I had found some stupid "10 best watches under $500" or some such web page, and didn't like much of any of them except the Seiko Orange Monster. So, when searching for info about that, it brought me to some great info here on WUS.... and boy did that ever open my eyes and mind to the real world of being a watch nerd.

During this time that I was trying to figure out what watch I wanted to get as my first "real" watch, I read some of your threads, found several people who liked what you had going on, and ultimately found that I was just in time to get in on the Orthos in pre-order. I've been following (and buying) your thread and watches ever since. (I still love my Orange and Blue Orthos!)

All of this, I guess, is to say that, for me at least, a lot of the appeal to Lew & Huey and NTH watches has been getting to know you (Doc) along the way.

And you/ your watches was what got me started in the Micro Brands. Now, the only watch I own that is NOT a Micro is my Seiko Blue Monster LE. I bought it whilst waiting for the delivery of my Orthos. I was looking for an Orange Monster, ans stumbled across that in person in a store in Taiwan at a good price and couldn't pass it up. All this time later, and I have a "good sized" collection and still no Orange Monster, even though it is still on my want list. But, I've not had "watch funds" available for the OM yet, as I've continued to find new Micros (usually NTH/L&W) that I like so much that I don't want to pass up.

Now, I'm basically a "Micro Only" guy. Just like I prefer to shop the "mom 'n pops" places whenever possible. I've NEVER been into "trendy" things. I will NEVER (I know I should never say never... but I feel pretty safe here) own a Rolex. Much for the same reason that I don't own any Apple products (except that my work has given me an iPhone as my work phone... that is soon changing to a Samsung company wide, so I'm almost safe!). That is NOT saying that Rolex or Apple are bad. I will be among the first to say that they are quality products. What bugs me most about those brands, are the people who follow them. I've simply met too many people who are SOOOOOO into Apple that they are unwilling to engage in reasonable discussion, and worse, they seem to put themselves above everyone else. I've seen this far too often. There are far too many people who are so far into the Rolex band-wagon that it makes me sick. So many people respond to those "this or that" with Rolex, even if that wasn't one of the options. Blind following. Trendy. Yuck.

I'm also into motorcycles. I'll never own a Harley. Partly because I truly believe they are over-priced and you are buying the name more than the motorcycle, and partly because they just aren't good quality. They require a lot of maintenance and work. But also, they have the same thing going for them as Rolex and Apple. People buy them because of their name/brand in pure ignorance. They boast about them because everyone else is. They don't actually know what makes them "boast worthy". (disclaimer: there are plenty of Rolex/Apple/Harley owners who DO know and can talk to these points intelligently and discuss/debate reasonably, but they seem to be the smaller percentage or the more quiet percentage).

With Micros, I like knowing that my watch is one of 10 - 1000 or so. I enjoy knowing that I'm not one of the blind jumping on the band wagon. I enjoy being "different".

And, to wrap this up, I agree with what others have said. I feel that I've gotten to know you, Chris. Through this forum, and the various other FB groups. You, your personality and your interaction within these groups are all factors that go into my decisions to buy your watches. If we ever wind up at the same GTG, or bump into each other somehow, somewhere else, I'd be happy to buy you a drink of your choice and sit down and have a chat. Outside the fact that you make great watches, you truly seem like a good person.

Is it April yet!?! #whereismydevilrayalready
Not April yet!!! I'll continue my semi-patient waiting now...


----------



## Minorcollector (Dec 28, 2015)

docvail,

I saw you have a watch called Cerberus and your avatar is the 3-headed dog of hell. Thought you might like this. When I was in the Marines, the squadron I was in had a really boring and almost embarrassing logo. I did some research and discovered that our unit did not have an official insignia approved by the Naval Historical Division. I convinced the CO that we needed to redesign the logo with something completely different. Below is what we came up with. In my opinion it's one of the coolest designs in the Marines. In WWI, the Germans called US Marines "*Teufel Hunde*", or dogs of hell, or "Devil Dogs". Thought you might like this.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

As a noob WuSer. I appreciate the honesty that Chris brings to the table. Much like kendalw3 said above, 6 months ago to spend $100 on a watch? preposterous.... $200? well I have done that now 3 times. $201 PLUS!?!?!? well twice now (Canadian dollars so that counts!!) Thanks to Chris. 
If he keeps showing up that damn sexah a$$ Nazario...Will be 3 well maybe 4!! I have a Spectre, Bluquiose coming, and patiently waiting on news of this preposed Renegade(that was the name right?) and now the foxah Cali piece!!! 

I doubt I will get to Chicago soon, maybe see the Cubs play but eff my Bears!!! But I do want to see Philly. Many reasons!!
1st - The History of the City
2nd - I love It is always Sunny in philly so want to stalk that shiite.
3rd - Since I will stalking, might as well stalk Chris out as well. Go through his garbage. Retrace his steps. Take some shower pics... Usual fanboy ****e!!!! bwahahah!

I really should stop typing how my mind wants me too...Real hard to read the above, and for that I am sorry. 

Not really sorry, Canadian so that is part of our greeting.


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

Doc

>>$600 Milgauss

what an awesome idea... !! I would buy it.. ..it would be epic!!

note..I didn't suggest the watch as I know you love people who suggest watches...im just saying I love the idea

p.s. I have my commander 300 on today... love that watch


----------



## RLextherobot (Jan 10, 2017)

Quazi said:


> Doc
> 
> >>$600 Milgauss
> 
> ...


At the risk of making Doc regret an off-handed example he threw out for the sake of argument, I would 100% buy one. I'll never have 8k to spend on a Milgauss, but an interpretation instead of a straight copy would be right up my alley.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cerb is back in the stable...









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RLextherobot said:


> At the risk of making Doc regret an off-handed example he threw out for the sake of argument, I would 100% buy one. I'll never have 8k to spend on a Milgauss, but an interpretation instead of a straight copy would be right up my alley.


Just sayin'...









Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## RLextherobot (Jan 10, 2017)

docvail said:


> Just sayin'...


Welp, I guess I have something to add to my eBay search alerts.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If any of you happen to visit Philly by train, be sure to stop and admire the neo-classic/art-deco architecture of 30th street station, and check out my favorite statue at its East end...

When I was a kid, I'd sometimes spend weekends in the city with my Dad, and we'd pass through the station while waiting for the local rail to take me home.

That statue always mesmerized me. It depicts an angel lifting the soul of a dead soldier from the field of battle. It's dedicated to all the Pennsylvania railroad workers who died in WWII.

I took these shots last time I was there, on my way to the Divers Watches FB GTG in CT a few months back.









Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RLextherobot said:


> Welp, I guess I have something to add to my eBay search alerts.


Good luck, that's a one-off mod I made by swapping out the stock blue rehaut for the orange one that came with the blue dial.

I'll sell it, for - wait for it...










Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Talk to @SteamJ.


I happen to have had to come home early for a sick kid today so more.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> If any of you happen to visit Philly by train, be sure to stop and admire the neo-classic/art-deco architecture of 30th street station, and check out my favorite statue at its East end...
> 
> When I was a kid, I'd sometimes spend weekends in the city with my Dad, and we'd pass through the station while waiting for the local rail to take me home.
> 
> ...


Yeah 30th street is pretty cool once you leave the SEPTA end (although the exterior structure is pretty neat). Can't say I remember your favorite but the spirit of transportation by the bathrooms has caused me to stop and look a few times.







not my picture


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Yeah 30th street is pretty cool once you leave the SEPTA end (although the exterior structure is pretty neat). Can't say I remember your favorite but the *spirit of transportation by the bathrooms* has caused me to stop and look a few times.
> View attachment 12712339
> 
> not my picture


At first pass, I thought I'd read "transformation by the bathrooms", and there was a second or two when my mind went to a place I never want to visit again...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> As a noob WuSer. I appreciate the honesty that Chris brings to the table. Much like kendalw3 said above, 6 months ago to spend $100 on a watch? preposterous.... $200? well I have done that now 3 times. $201 PLUS!?!?!? well twice now (Canadian dollars so that counts!!) Thanks to Chris.
> If he keeps showing up that damn sexah a$$ Nazario...Will be 3 well maybe 4!! I have a Spectre, Bluquiose coming, and patiently waiting on news of this preposed Renegade(that was the name right?) and now the foxah Cali piece!!!
> 
> I doubt I will get to Chicago soon, maybe see the Cubs play but eff my Bears!!! But I do want to see Philly. Many reasons!!
> ...


Someone get this man a ticket to Philly and a waterproof camera asap.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Yeah 30th street is pretty cool once you leave the SEPTA end (although the exterior structure is pretty neat). Can't say I remember your favorite...


Also...how can you overlook a 30 foot obelisk positioned right in front of the middle door?










Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Also...how can you overlook a 30 foot obelisk positioned right in front of the middle door?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Always have come from the septa entrance(West end?) to the food court, to the benches, to watch the (what is now gone) ticker, and occasionally the bathroom.

Also i was working double shifts at the time and just waiting for the connecting train to go home so i wasn't in the most observant of moods.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ryan92084 said:


> Always have come from the septa entrance(West end?) to the food court, to the benches, to watch the (what is now gone) ticker, and occasionally the bathroom.
> 
> Also i was working double shifts at the time and just waiting for the connecting train to go home so i wasn't in the most observant of moods.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


The SEPTA entrance is the south side, nearer to 29th st than 30th. If you'd walked straight, instead of turning, you'd have bumped into it!

Ugh...this younger generation. In my day...something something...statues.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The SEPTA entrance is the south side, nearer to 29th st than 30th. If you'd walked straight, instead of turning, you'd have bumped into it!
> 
> Ugh...this younger generation. In my day...something something...statues.


Definitely came in from the NW corner and walked straight to the food court. Something something...lost elders

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ryan92084 said:


> Definitely came in from the NW corner and walked straight to the food court. Something something...lost elders
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Hmmmm...I must have gotten turned around coming in on SEPTA. But still...this ain't ringing any bells with you? Nothing?

































I mean...it's kind of hard to miss.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

it was more this one but minus the daylight to backlight the wings. Regardless I'll be sure to check it out next time I'm between trains.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> it was more this one but minus the daylight to backlight the wings. Regardless I'll be sure to check it out next time I'm between trains.
> View attachment 12712699


Ugh...this younger generation today...something something...food court!


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Hmmmm...I must have gotten turned around coming in on SEPTA. But still...this ain't ringing any bells with you? Nothing?
> 
> View attachment 12712673
> 
> ...


What'll really compliment the statue? How about a giant Starbucks iced coffee banner!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Good lookin' watch SteamJ. Thanks!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Non sequitur alert!!!

Speaking of overly-self-indulgent jackwagons*, forum member @chronopolis sent this to me (yes, THAT chronopolis).

It's a long read, but it's an interesting take on the psychology of luxury watch brand marketing - https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/.../luxury_branding_the....

TL;DR - these ads aren't intended for people who've always been wealthy (because people who are born into inter-generational wealth grew up being taught how to spend their money, so they don't need advertising to tell them), but rather the "enlightened" people who've come into their money more recently, the new elites, and there's a creepy undertone of promoting class division in the way they're structured.

There, that's a thing you didn't know.

*I'm 100% positive there's 0% chance chronopolis would take offense at my awkward wording, but for anyone else, the overly-self-indulgent jackwagons to whom I am referring are not him, it's the people who take their watch-buying advice from these ads, and I guess, to some equal or lesser extent, the guys who drop a few thousand dollars on a watch without even knowing what it is, like Mr. Perfect-Hair last Friday evening.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> ... like Mr. Perfect-Hair last Friday evening.


This reminds me of a really great speech from a local motivational guy who was prior special forces, prior "contractor", super-bad @$$ guy. He was asked to help select someone from some sort of elitist group to move up into the super-elitist task force or some such.

Readers Digest version:

There was 1 guy who kicked @$$ at everything. Fastest run times, best scores in nearly everything. Also had a nearly perfect physique and perfect hair (speaker guy is completely bald). So, this guy was dubbed "Hair". There was another guy who barely passed all areas of the testing. But this guy put his whole soul into everything. Barely made the run time, and vomited all over his shoes immediately afterwards. So this guy was dubbed "Vomit Shoes". At the end of all the tests, the people who invited the speaker to help choose who to move up, they were all so proud "Hair", so impressed by his high marks all around, and they thought for sure he would be the one. Speaker guy chose "Vomit Shoes". He had told all the candidates before the testing began to do their absolute best. "Hair" finished his run 1st place, but still had gas in the tank. He did great, sure, but didn't put in 110%. "Vomit Shoes" gave everything he had in all events. Tried his absolute best.

Anyway, he is a great speaker, and my son came back from listening to him and his speech seemed to have a pretty big impact on my son's attitude and outlook on life. (Jason Mow - if anyone is interested)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> This reminds me of a really great speech from a local motivational guy who was prior special forces, prior "contractor", super-bad @$$ guy. He was asked to help select someone from some sort of elitist group to move up into the super-elitist task force or some such.
> 
> Readers Digest version:
> 
> ...


"Vomit Shoes" is a much worse nickname than the one my [email protected]$$ friend Mueller gave me when I had stress fractures in both feet and couldn't wear combat boots for two weeks...

"Sneaker Pimp".

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Chronopolis article, hilarious as it is inciteful. I couldn't give a rats a$$ about a PP watch. But now I have a hankering to watch 9-1/2 weeks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Chronopolis article, hilarious as it is inciteful. I couldn't give a rats a$$ about a PP watch. But now I have a hankering to watch 9-1/2 weeks.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yeah. Kim Basinger, back in the day...that's where it was at.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Non sequitur alert!!!
> 
> Speaking of overly-self-indulgent jackwagons*, forum member @chronopolis sent this to me (yes, THAT chronopolis).
> 
> snip...


There is a reason why lottery winners, athletes, and Johnny Depp often end up worse than they started.


----------



## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

docvail said:


> **I'm 100% positive there's 0% chance chronopolis would take offense at my awkward wording, *but for anyone else, the overly-self-indulgent jackwagons to whom I am referring are not him, it's the people who take their watch-buying advice from these ads, and I guess, to some equal or lesser extent, the guys who drop a few thousand dollars on a watch without even knowing what it is, like Mr. Perfect-Hair last Friday evening.


D'OH!!!
You know me too well. Dammit. 
And I haven't even got to date your sister yet. Sigh. :-!


----------



## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

Rhorya said:


> Chronopolis article, hilarious as it is _*inciteful*_.


I cant tell if that was a typo, or if you're being literary with that masterful use of ambiguity / double entendre.

The fact that it's so ambiguous, tells me it could be the latter. 
Maybe you're slyly channeling, and making use of, William Empson's _'Seven Types of Ambguity', _hmm? :-!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Chronopolis said:


> I cant tell if that was a typo, or if you're being literary with that masterful use of ambiguity / double entendre.
> 
> The fact that it's so ambiguous, tells me it could be the latter.
> Maybe you're slyly channeling, and making use of, William Empson's _'Seven Types of Ambguity', _hmm? :-!


"Ambguity"?, more like Ambguilty! ?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Oh man, that article was brilliant.

Warning: I do not recommend consuming covfefe or any other beverage while reading if you value your keyboard.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Jumping in mid-conservation. I’m in Nigeria at the moment and the internet is spotty...

Doc, don’t make a Pelagos. The Nacken is a better watch. Wears better. I buy your stuff NOT because it looks like something else, but because I get a better watch for the money. 

And I wouldn’t want the kind of friend who’d like me for my watch, regardless.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I wouldn't mind making a little more money at it, sure, but please, don't mistake anything I say as bitterness about what I'm doing. I am incredibly fortunate I can do this.


If you are looking for inspiration and would like to make a little more money, there are a bunch of Enicar Sherpas that would sell like hotcakes if the design were to be refreshed by a plucky and cantankerous upstart watch designer possessing a knack for doing such things.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

More: just had my wife read the Chronopolis article. She informed me that if I wasted $10k on a watch for her before we hire a live-in chef, she’d be pi**ed.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



pb9610 said:


> If you are looking for inspiration and would like to make a little more money, there are a bunch of Enicar Sherpas that would sell like hotcakes if the design were to be refreshed by a plucky and cantankerous upstart watch designer possessing a knack for doing such things.


Now there's a market. Since the target audience is the deep and extremely narrow WIS niche anyway, doing modern reproductions of obscure classics would be a great approach.

Once I reconnected with watches and discovered WUS a year or so ago, after having quit wearing them in the early 90s (since my pager had a clock built in, you know), I became convinced that NTH was a well-known and popular brand in the real world. Then Doc published his production figures...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Jumping in mid-conservation. I'm in Nigeria at the moment and the internet is spotty...
> 
> Doc, don't make a Pelagos. The Nacken is a better watch. Wears better. I buy your stuff NOT because it looks like something else, but because I get a better watch for the money.
> 
> And I wouldn't want the kind of friend who'd like me for my watch, regardless.


I like you for your watch, regardless.

Just sayin'...

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MaxIcon said:


> Now there's a market. Since the target audience is the deep and extremely narrow WIS niche anyway, doing modern reproductions of obscure classics would be a great approach.


The Sherpas have enough models to keep a watchmaker busy for awhile.

I bet Doc couldn't even design a watch with a rotating red ring marker in the timing bezel. Hint. Hint.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Apparently the "Swiss Made" rules are "too lenient, providing no guarantee, creating confusion and encouraging abuses."

Who knew? I for one am shocked! Shocked, I tell you!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ks-precision-for-watch-industry-idUSKBN1E01YT

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

THIS STORY.

I'm a software engineer. I really like the folks I work with. But half the people I work with have smart watches. The other half don't wear them, because phone. And that douche in the fleece vest you described who buys an Omega because it looks nice? In my world we call them "project managers".

So I come here for a few minutes every night just to remind myself that there are other weirdos like me. Thanks Chris.



docvail said:


> That question was rhetorical, right?
> 
> I dunno...part of the appeal of the idea is just as an experiment.
> 
> ...


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> Apparently the "Swiss Made" rules are "too lenient, providing no guarantee, creating confusion and encouraging abuses."
> 
> Who knew? I for one am shocked! Shocked, I tell you!
> 
> ...


Dare I say that I detect a hint of sarcasm there!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Hey Doc, I just came across another thread about NTH. Over there you said all NTH watches are regulated in 4 positions. I was so surprised that you never mentioned it anywhere, on your website, in any blogger’s reviews, or your own interviews... It would make a great advertisement for you watches, don’t you think?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Quite dign' the Barracuda. The pics really do not do it justice.









Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> Hey Doc, I just came across another thread about NTH. Over there you said all NTH watches are regulated in 4 positions. I was so surprised that you never mentioned it anywhere, on your website, in any blogger's reviews, or your own interviews... It would make a great advertisement for you watches, don't you think?


Did I say that? I may need to stop drinking and posting.

If memory serves, I was responding to someone who suggested another company's watches were better because they were adjusting them.

The Miyota 9015 is adjusted to 4 positions, and we test them before/after assembly, and will adjust them if needed. The STP1-11 is adjusted to 5 positions, and, ditto the above. Seiko NH35, 3 positions, ditto.

It never occurred to me that we should advertise the fact that we make sure our watches run within spec. It seemed like a silly argument for anyone to make. If companies are sending out watches which don't run within spec, routinely, and people are okay with that, let me know, and I'll start advertising that what we claim to sell is actually what we sell.

I want the watches to stand on their own merits, which I think are solid design, quality and value. I really don't want to encourage people to challenge me on accuracy specs any more than they already do.

There are 86,400 seconds in a day. If you gain or lose 30, your watch is still tracking within 0.035% of "perfect".

If someone is an accuracy junky, they should buy a quartz watch, not a mechanical watch, or pony up for an officially certified superlative chronometer.

Otherwise, I think worrying about being even 20 seconds out of spec with an automatic watch you wear for one day at a time, a few times per month, is silly, and I'm not going to encourage silliness with advertising.

If it makes any difference (and I'm betting it doesn't), I've been asked why the NTH Tropics and DevilRay don't say "Swiss" anywhere on them.

Same reason - it's a silly thing to worry about, where the movement in the watch comes from, or where final assembly was done, unless you're from the country where either thing happened, and feeling patriotic.

If I'm not going to put "Japan" on them when we use a Miyota, I don't see why I should put "Swiss" on them when we use the STP. I want people to buy the quality, not the labels, which mean nothing to me.

I think it would be hypocritical for me to make a big deal about things which I don't think really are a big deal.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> I want the watches to stand on their own merits, which I think are solid design, quality and value. I really don't want to encourage people to challenge me on accuracy specs any more than they already do.


Thank you for clarifying! Your answer really makes NTH (and Janis Trading as well) stand out. Usually, companies try to "advertise" as many good thing as possible about their watches. So when it comes to comparing one to another, people tend to bring small added feature (regulated movement, hand assembled in xxx) to the discussion as "better in specs" (as you said), and it may help you to sell even more watches if you say it IMO. But I don't know, as I said, that's what makes you really special in this world!


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

Doc,

If it matters, I think I would value a watch that was regulated. I had no idea my commander 300 was regulated... that makes it even more awesome.. I would at least mention it on your web page somewhere.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It's possible I'm misunderstanding the discussion.

When you guys buy a watch, do you not assume that it's running within the manufacturer's stated specs? That's a result of the movement being adjusted to run according to spec. 

They're ALL adjusted, prior to the movements being shipped to the assembly point. 

Maybe there are some brands which are just casing them up at that point, but...are they also putting the specs on their websites, and either way, wouldn't you send the watch back if it arrived and wasn't running within spec?

I'm struggling with the logic here.

We test the movements before and after assembly, to make sure they're running within spec. If they're not, we adjust them to within spec. I don't see that as "special", because I assume it's what everyone is doing, OR, if they're not doing it, that they're taking back a lot of returns due to being out of spec.

Just to put my comment into the specific context, someone said Nodus watches were better because they were adjusting them all. I'd have to go back and read their blog post about it, or maybe confirm with the Nodus guys, but I think they were specifically referring to the Seiko movements, saying that they discovered some were out of spec on arrival, and they made sure they adjusted them all to within spec before shipping them.

Okay. Fine. That's exactly what we do. It's sort of "standard procedure", unless some company is deliberately skipping that step, and willfully overlooking any accuracy issues.

I don't want to criticize the Nodus guys. I've met them. They're good guys. They acted like I was someone they look up to - respect for their elders, but whatever, it showed they've got good character. I'm not sure if they're making a big deal out of something that isn't, or if they just meant to describe their process, since they're doing their own assembly themselves, and some people misread it as being something "special". 

The only difference I see is that Wes and Cullen (Nodus) are doing their own assembly and adjustment, and I'm outsourcing it, but it's still being done either way, and again, I don't want to assume other brands are NOT doing it, unless I know for sure they're not, and so far as I know, everyone's doing the same thing, checking the movements before and after assembly. If not, they're idiots. 

I rarely get returns for watches running out of spec. Like, I may have gotten one, ever. To me, it's just assumed that your watch is adjusted to within spec before it gets to you. 

Am I just looking at this all wrong?


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

docvail said:


> It's possible I'm misunderstanding the discussion.
> 
> When you guys buy a watch, do you not assume that it's running within the manufacturer's stated specs? That's a result of the movement being adjusted to run according to spec.
> 
> ...


Nope, I think your logic is fine. :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Just to see if I can maybe add some clarity or get to the source of confusion here, regarding the accuracy, and adjustments.

The Seiko NH35 specs provide average daily rates for 3 positions.

The Miyota 9015 specs provide average daily rates for 4 positions.

The STP1-11 specs provide average daily rates for 5 positions.

Those are the specs provided by the movement manufacturers. They are adjusted to 3, 4, and 5 positions, respectively, before the movements even get to us.

We test them before and after assembly, adjusting any which need it, to within spec, at worst, or to better than spec, preferably.

That doesn't mean we adjust every watch. Not every watch needs to be adjusted, by US, but every watch IS adjusted - the movements are adjusted before they get to us, and we adjust those which need further adjustment before or after assembly.

So, the NTH Subs are adjusted to 4 positions, because the 9015 inside them is adjusted to 4 positions. But any company that uses that movement can make that claim.

HOWEVER, if they're not including any timekeeping tests in their QC, then they're skipping a vital step, and I would assume they'd have higher returns for watches not running within spec.

And if they're shipping watches without checking them, then I'd say they're effectively lying if they quote the accuracy spec, since it implies adjustment to within spec.

I'd further assume that if not doing any timekeeping tests was a widespread phenomenon, we'd know it. I'd know that I was paying more for the "extra" step of doing timekeeping tests and adjustments, and you'd all know it because we'd see nonstop discussion of how much BS the accuracy specs on people's websites really are, and people would be trying to figure out which brands are making sure the watches live up to the specs.

It's hard for me to believe that what we're doing is "special", since I assume most, if not all of my competitors are doing it.

My point to the fellow in that other thread was that Nodus adjusting the watches wasn't something that made them better than our watches, since ours are also adjusted, and everything I've seen proves we're generally well within spec.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Just to see if I can maybe add some clarity or get to the source of confusion here, regarding the accuracy, and adjustments.
> 
> The Seiko NH35 specs provide average daily rates for 3 positions.
> 
> ...


I think you are over-obsessing this.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> I think you are over-obsessing this.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


That is what I love about Doc.
I would much prefer a watch designer to be over-obsessed than uninvolved.
That is how we get brilliant minds like Chip, Jason, and Sujain among others.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ConfusedOne said:


> That is what I love about Doc.
> I would much prefer a watch designer to be over-obsessed than uninvolved.
> That is how we get brilliant minds like Chip, Jason, and Sujain among others.


But... I'm most brilliant, right?

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Neat.

I had assumed that most microbrands don't really regulate their watches, they just slap the factory-regulated movement in the case and *maybe* check on a timegrapher if it's in spec.

(as opposed to after-the-fact regulation, when every watch gets actual tweezers-on-movement interaction to increase accuracy over what the movement arrived with from factory).

It might be a conflict of interpretations of what people expect when hearing 'regulated by the brand'. E.g:

1) Movement arrives from factory, brand X slaps it in case, sends off to buyers, no checks. _Is that watch unregulated, regulated, or factory-regulated?_
2) Movement arrives from factory, brand X slaps it in case, checks timing - if pass, ship, if fail, toss in the bin. _Unregulated, regulated, or factory-regulated?_
3) Movement arrives from factory, brand X slaps it in case, checks timing - if pass, ship, if fail, re-regulate it. _Is this regulated, if some movements "in spec" from factory don't get tweaked?_
4) Movement arrives from factory, brand X slaps it in case, and re-regulates every watch to better-than-it-was + in-spec. _This is regulated, for sure._

In case 4, the answer is pretty clear. Cases 1-3, you could interpret multiple answers as being "correct". Idk what most people assume. (I'd have gone with "unregulated" for cases 1 & 2, and idk about case 3.)


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Forever8895 said:


> Thank you for clarifying! Your answer really makes NTH (and Janis Trading as well) stand out. Usually, companies try to "advertise" as many good thing as possible about their watches. So when it comes to comparing one to another, people tend to bring small added feature (regulated movement, hand assembled in xxx) to the discussion as "better in specs" (as you said), and it may help you to sell even more watches if you say it IMO. But I don't know, as I said, that's what makes you really special in this world!


You might be surprised at how many people will value the statement that the watches have been regulated, regardless of your assumption that its standard practice. I would put it in my marketing materials, if it were me

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Another aspect of this is the fact that no matter what happens, or what I say, it's impossible to prove, and any watch can show up not keeping good time, if it takes a hard enough knock in shipping to affect the balance.

I'll consider it, but my gut tells me I'd be opening myself up to a whole new range of pointless arguments.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Another aspect of this is the fact that no matter what happens, or what I say, it's impossible to prove, and any watch can show up not keeping good time, if it takes a hard enough knock in shipping to affect the balance.


Or goes through enough scanners to get a wee bit magnetized. Some people go nuts in such cases.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Or goes through enough scanners to get a wee bit magnetized. Some people go nuts in such cases.


That's true, and I was thinking about it, but at least in most of those cases it's an easy enough fix, and thankfully I don't usually catch the blame.

I wonder if that last guy got his watch demagnetized, or if he's still angry at me for suggesting that might be the reason it was running so fast.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Too cool 









Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This will go down as the best "when reached for comment" quote of all time...

"What Charlie Parker did for "How High The Moon," Chris Vail did for various Rolex Submariner references (although when asked for comment, Chris thought it was more akin to what Colonel Sanders did for fried chicken)."

https://www.noduswatches.com/nodus-blog/to-homage-or-not-to-homage


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

I think it is notable that Nodus is doing assembly and regulation here in the U.S. While I don't think that makes it inherently superior to the work that Doc's vendor does overseas before shipping, I do like the idea of increased domestic watchmaking (assembly and regulation are a start!), particularly at the prices Nodus is charging. There is a bright red statement on the Ghost Rider product page that they are assembled in the USA, so I must not be the only one who cares about that.

In addition, it appears they are not just doing QC to ensure the movements are within manufacturer specs. Here's what they say about their regulation:



> NH35As are low-cost and produced in massive volumes. They are unadjusted from the factory and have a wide accuracy range of -20s to +40s a day. On the other hand, the STP1-11 is tested in five positions from the factory which lends to a much better accuracy range of 0s to +15s a day and highly consistent timekeeping in different positions.
> 
> ...
> 
> We aim to regulate all of our STP1-11 movements to a standard of -5s to +5s a day in four different positions, which is very easy to achieve because the movement runs strongly from the factory. As for the NH35A movements, we aim to regulate them to a standard of -10s to +10s a day in four different positions.


I think that such improvement over the factory specs is worth advertising.


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

uvalaw2005 said:


> I think it is notable that Nodus is doing assembly and regulation here in the U.S. While I don't think that makes it inherently superior to the work that Doc's vendor does overseas before shipping, I do like the idea of increased domestic watchmaking (assembly and regulation are a start!), particularly at the prices Nodus is charging. There is a bright red statement on the Ghost Rider product page that they are assembled in the USA, so I must not be the only one who cares about that.
> 
> In addition, it appears they are not just doing QC to ensure the movements are within manufacturer specs. Here's what they say about their regulation:
> 
> I think that such improvement over the factory specs is worth advertising.


Agreed on all points. I don't think it necessarily adds anything tangible to what one might expect in terms of reliability.

With that said, based on my studies of the works of the great horo-philosopher DocVail, I think there is an intangible value to bringing any part of the watchmaking process back to the states. This feels like a little bit of a cheat (or a relatively insignificant move) but it's probably a step in the right direction.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Luv me sum lume 









Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Urs Haenggi (Feb 17, 2015)

Is there a hard date for when the Subs will be stocked again?

I've been lusting after a Santa Fe, but then tonight, I clicked on the Amphion Modern. WTF. How am I just now seeing this?! Doc, make me a no-date please and I'll buy it right now.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Urs Haenggi said:


> Is there a hard date for when the Subs will be stocked again?
> 
> I've been lusting after a Santa Fe, but then tonight, I clicked on the Amphion Modern. WTF. How am I just now seeing this?! Doc, make me a no-date please and I'll buy it right now.


No there's no hard date on when we'll have stock again.

Watch Gauge and Sub Six Watches both have stock on the Santa Fe.

http://www.watchgauge.com/nth/

https://subsixwatches.com/collections/diving-watches

Some stock. Not a lot. I wouldn't wait.

The Amphion Modern? Seriously? That was one of the first Subs models, revealed almost 2 years ago. There was a no-date version. I can't even guess how you might have missed it. Were you in a space-time vortex or something?

Looks like a few have come up for sale in the last few months. I'd create an alert on Watch Recon, and stalk the sales listings in the big Facebook groups.


----------



## Urs Haenggi (Feb 17, 2015)

I know, I know, now that I'm looking at reviews, I see that. I think I just ignored that style until recently. I bought a Santa Cruz early on and regret selling it to fund something else. I'll set a Watch Recon alert.

Thanks for such a quick response and for making some awesome watches.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Sub on a Bond NATO sounds typical, but it seems different with the Scorpène.
I really dig the look and the Scorpène seems to look great on any strap.


----------



## KidThunder (Jan 15, 2017)

docvail said:


> Urs Haenggi said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a hard date for when the Subs will be stocked again?
> ...


Been stalking Recon since late spring for an Amphion Vintage. Nacken and Antilles come up and a sole Amphion modern recently. Just missed a vintage on WUS in April. They are a rare bird indeed. I must've been organizing my Pog collection or something at the time.

I'll just go back to lurking now.....


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I will just leave this here......










It has become my go-to travel watch. This time it's off to Singapore. Currently enjoying a Singapore Sling.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Not sure if mentioned here but i confirmed with watchgauge that date on the modern nacken will be at 6. I have been eyeing nacken for a while but date at 4:30 is not my cup of tea and i already have so many no date divers. Modern nacken in black with date will be a perfect all around watch for me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Not sure if mentioned here but i confirmed with watchgauge that date on the modern nacken will be at 6. I have been eyeing nacken for a while but date at 4:30 is not my cup of tea and i already have so many no date divers. Modern nacken in black with date will be a perfect all around watch for me.


Nacken Modern Blue will also have the date at 6. Both will be in white.

The white date wheel should work well with the Nacken's larger hour indices.

We're going for a recessed indentation in the dial around the window, much like the current Pelagos date window treatment.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MaxIcon said:


> Now there's a market. Since the target audience is the deep and extremely narrow WIS niche anyway, doing modern reproductions of obscure classics would be a great approach.


_ Photos sourced from elsewhere_

Felca Seascoper III









Marcel & Cie Worldtime Diver








Bifora 115









Dugena Watertrip too, but they're still in business, so it's less obscure:









Mister Doctor's modernized watches inspired by these would be incredible.


----------



## nodnod222 (Jun 17, 2017)

How may I obtain a coupon code to be applied in a watchgauge purchase?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nodnod222 said:


> How may I obtain a coupon code to be applied in a watchgauge purchase?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I'm not aware that Watch Gauge has any coupon codes.


----------



## nodnod222 (Jun 17, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm not aware that Watch Gauge has any coupon codes.


It's just that there's a box for coupon code when I was ordering a Nacken Modern Blue, just don't want to miss out on any discount opportunity.

BTW, I'm a late comer and this will be my first NTH watch. Love your watches Doc.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nodnod222 said:


> It's just that there's a box for coupon code when I was ordering a Nacken Modern Blue, just don't want to miss out on any discount opportunity.
> 
> BTW, I'm a late comer and this will be my first NTH watch. Love your watches Doc.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Cheers.

Most template ecommerce sites have a box for coupon codes. That box doesn't necessarily mean the site accepts coupon codes.

It's actually surprising to me that it's not an option which can be toggled on or off. Getting rid of the box on my website would require custom coding. It's aggravating when I think of it, because I've read that the presence of that box at checkout actually causes a lot of people to leave the site before completing a sale, searching the internet for coupon codes which don't exist, and never coming back to finish the transaction.


----------



## nodnod222 (Jun 17, 2017)

docvail said:


> Cheers.
> 
> Most template ecommerce sites have a box for coupon codes. That box doesn't necessarily mean the site accepts coupon codes.
> 
> It's actually surprising to me that it's not an option which can be toggled on or off. Getting rid of the box on my website would require custom coding. It's aggravating when I think of it, because I've read that the presence of that box at checkout actually causes a lot of people to leave the site before completing a sale, searching the internet for coupon codes which don't exist, and never coming back to finish the transaction.


Haha, exactly what I am doing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

docvail said:


> Cheers.
> 
> Most template ecommerce sites have a box for coupon codes. That box doesn't necessarily mean the site accepts coupon codes.
> 
> It's actually surprising to me that it's not an option which can be toggled on or off. Getting rid of the box on my website would require custom coding. It's aggravating when I think of it, because I've read that the presence of that box at checkout actually causes a lot of people to leave the site before completing a sale, searching the internet for coupon codes which don't exist, and never coming back to finish the transaction.


^ True.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Doc, I have to hold off on ordering a Nacken right now. But, since I have an order in on your Devil Ray, I feel comfortable saying hot damn that Nacken Modern Blue is a ....ing killer looking watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Doc, I have to hold off on ordering a Nacken right now. But, since I have an order in on your Devil Ray, I feel comfortable saying hot damn that Nacken Modern Blue is a ....ing killer looking watch.


Cheers, mate.

The vintage blue is no slouch either, FWIW.

Actually, I also like the black, both modern and vintage versions.

Big fan of the Nackens, generally. Can't wait to show you guys the Nacken Renegade. It's "need to change my shorts" hot.


----------



## nodnod222 (Jun 17, 2017)

Code or no code, the deal is done! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Cmon, doc, send him a free one. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I like the modern. They both look good, but I prefer the non-textured dial.

I know I'm cross-threading, but I think there is a lot to some modern productions of classic vintage divers. You don't need my advice. But there seems to be a real appetite for some more vintage inspired divers, and your spin seems to hit it. I mean, you ARE sold out now. 

Do it! DO IT!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

NTH.
Hooper.
$600.

I'll help you carry the bags of money to the bank if necessary.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Cheers, mate.
> 
> The vintage blue is no slouch either, FWIW.
> 
> ...


Challenge accepted. |>
I won't change my shorts until your fancy watch forces me to. ;-)


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I'm not going to shave again until Doc makes a *Hooper*.
Then he'll make his millions and retire to Kauai, end up my neighbor, and we'll sip scotch and discuss chess openings.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I swear to God, and I'm not kidding, I'll make that ....ing Hooper myself as some bargain price if nobody else does before I retire in 3 years. I don't know what's in that Resco watch, but I can't believe we can't get that down to $500 with Doc's contacts.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

That "defects under $500" thread is making my head hurt. Can't keep looking at it. 

I know a lot of you guys range around this and other forums. If the topic comes up, especially if my name or my business gets mentioned, I'd appreciate any of you setting the record straight, by clarifying how we handle our business at docvail industries, inc. 

It's sad that it would even be necessary, but at least we're clear, consistent and fair. Even the densest of bricks should be able to grasp what we're all about.

1. You get 30 days to return any watch, for any reason, for a refund, so long as it's still in as-delivered condition.

I honestly don't care what the reason is. You don't need to explain yourself or your decision to me. You got 30 days. Don't unwrap and wear it in that time, and if you want, you can send it back, no hassle, I promise.

Put it on a timegrapher. Look at it under a microscope. Hold it under the lamp, or outside in the sun, check out the lume just before dawn. Do whatever you need to do to decide if it meets your satisfaction, completely, but do NOT alter its condition. 

If you haven't worn it, and you find something wrong, legitimately wrong, I'm happy to do an exchange for you, or, if I don't agree there's anything wrong with it, I'll offer you a refund, because that's our policy.

If you unwrap and wear it, I don't care what the argument is, I'm not taking it back for a refund or exchange if I can't put it back into my inventory and sell it to someone else as new, without them coming back and saying I sent them someone else's reject. At that point, all we can do is talk about fixing it, if there's something legitimately wrong with it.

2. If you've worn it, and find something "wrong" with it, I'll likely ask for a pic or video to see what we're talking about. If I agree it's a defect, something we should have caught in QC, we'll sort it out for you, you have my word. 

That doesn't mean you'll get a refund or replacement, even if you hold your breath and stamp your feet, or threaten to shame me online. 

It more likely means we'll fix it, within reason - by which I mean, it's easier for me to fix something when I've still got spare parts, and you've had it a few weeks. If you're coming back months or years later, complaining about something you've overlooked all this time, it's a stretch to say whatever it is needs to be fixed because it's "obvious". I may not be able to fix it at that point.

But if I say it's not a defect, because it's within the range of acceptable variation due to manufacturing tolerances, necessary clearances, and human error in assembly, there's nothing I can do for you after you've worn it. 

Because you wore it, you own it. No refund, no replacement, no repair, and no mercy if you want to argue about it, privately, or publicly (and I don't recommend the latter).

I'm not having you send back a watch so we can spin our wheels trying to fix one tiny little imperfection, something you found by looking at it under a microscope, after wearing it a month, at the risk of creating two or three more issues in the course of trying to fix the first non-issue. I'm not going to deal with the risk that you claim we put dings in the case while we had it, or the risk that we scratch the dial while replacing the hands.

"But Doc, how do we know you're not just going to say nothing is a defect, and everything is 'manufacturing tolerances', so you don't have to deal with returns?"

Uhm...because I'm not a $h1theel, and I want my customers to be happy? Because I'm genuinely embarrassed when we miss something we should have caught in QC, and I don't want those pieces out in the world, as examples of how we - and mostly, I - effed up? 

Because I know there's a chance you could go online and try to shame me if we don't see eye-to-eye, and I want to be damned sure I'm on solid ground? Because this ain't my first rodeo, and after 5 years and more than 3,000 watches, I know what is and is not a defect? 

Because I deal with returns as a matter of routine, we're not scared to deal with them, and in fact we're probably one of the best in the business when it comes to no-cost returns and fast turnaround?

Because there are plenty of people who will tell you that's not how I roll? Because I want people to feel like our watches are worth MORE than what we're asking, and that ain't gonna happen if we're sending out watches with defects, and we don't take responsibility when that happens?

Pick a reason.

If you find something wrong with the watch I send you, even if it's some tiny little thing, do NOT ignore it. Do NOT worry that I'll say you're being nitpicky. I swear I won't. I don't get upset by returns for refunds. I'll sell that watch to someone else. I don't get upset about returns for repair or exchange. I'll sort out whatever is wrong, if there is something wrong.

I'd rather exchange it for another piece, or at worst, take it back for a refund, than have you come back later, after you've worn it, saying, "Doc, I saw this when it arrived, and tried to live with it, but I can't stop looking at it, or unsee it..."

At that point, you've severely limited my ability to make you happy. It would have been better to let me know right up front, when I could still offer you either a replacement, or, at worst, a refund, if I don't think there's anything wrong with it, and I would have put it back into inventory. After you've worn it, I can only offer a repair, and only if I see something that warrants a repair.

Bottom line - inspect before you wear. No exceptions. No excuses.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> View attachment 12726797


Perfect watch for every occasion!
I am happy to finally place an order for a docvail watch after following the NTH brand over the last year.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

docvail said:


> docvail industries, inc.


----------



## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

Holy poo! This is so awesome!
Doc, ya gotta buy this design, and use it ! I mean it ! I'd totally get a T-shirt with this on it.



pb9610 said:


> View attachment 12728207


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

Chronopolis said:


> Holy poo! This is so awesome!
> Doc, ya gotta buy this design, and use it ! I mean it ! I'd totally get a T-shirt with this on it.


It's a free font called CGF Locust Resistance and a free fist clip art from google images. Make your own!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pb9610 said:


> View attachment 12728207


Seriously.

My first sales job after the army, as a financial advsior, our regional manager once described my sales style on the phone as "smashmouth". He literally smacked his fist into his other palm when he said it.

I'd only been with the company a few months. We were in a huge meeting, with like 50 associates and a dozen low-level managers in a big room. It was like a scene from that movie "Boiler Room", and in fact this guy looked and sounded exactly like Ben Affleck, arrogant as hell as he's talking.

He's up front, pacing back and forth, talking about how to overcome people's objections to scheduling a meeting - how do you handle it when they say this, how do you handle when they say that, or you can do like Vail, and go smashmouth on them (smacking his fist)...

Everyone turns to look at me. I look around, and some of the expressions tell me these people expected me to be embarrassed that I got spotlighted like that.

I just shrugged, "I get 'em to come in."

I finished the year in the top 1% of over 2,000 first-year advisors nationwide, and they were talking about promoting me to manager right before I quit to go to a better firm.

Results talk. BS walks.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pb9610 said:


> View attachment 12728207





Chronopolis said:


> Holy poo! This is so awesome!
> Doc, ya gotta buy this design, and use it ! I mean it ! I'd totally get a T-shirt with this on it.


@synaptyx - can we upload this to the RedBubble store?

@pb9610 - if we sell 10 t-shirts with that design, I'll send you a free one.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

docvail said:


> @pb9610 - if we sell 10 t-shirts with that design, I'll send you a free one.


Please send it to Martin.

Please.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

docvail said:


> @synaptyx - can we upload this to the RedBubble store?


Didn't realize this existed! I just emailed my pestering son that I found my Christmas present:


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

docvail said:


> Seriously.
> 
> My first sales job after the army, as a financial advsior, our regional manager once described my sales style on the phone as "smashmouth". He literally smacked his fist into his other palm when he said it.
> 
> ...


When you are up front and honest with people, set clear expectations and speak/act with purpose, most people find it to be a relief. Even if you're aggressive, as long as you're not untoward, people appreciate the clarity and forthright behavior.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> Big fan of the Nackens, generally. Can't wait to show you guys the Nacken Renegade. It's "need to change my shorts" hot.


I'm more than intrigued... Curiosity peaked!

Crossing my fingers that it waits long enough for me to recover from Christmas, gotta start putting all my loose change in a jar or something!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pb9610 said:


> When you are up front and honest with people, set clear expectations and speak/act with purpose, most people find it to be a relief. Even if you're aggressive, as long as you're not untoward, people appreciate the clarity and forthright behavior.


Agreed.

One of my great sales coaches used to say, "If you feel it, say it. No mutual mystification. Yes is okay. No is okay. Maybe is BS. If you think someone's BS'ing you, call 'em on it."

That changed my life. It never occurred to me before, that it was okay to not deal in subtleties, innuendo, and implication.

You like what I'm selling? Awesome. Buy it.

You don't like it, or me? Awesome, thanks for not wasting any more of my time. I'm off to show it to someone else.

We waste too much of our lives and energy figuring out how to NOT say what we really mean, but get others to understand what we REALLY mean by what we DO say.

It's not courtesy, or cleverness. It's being a p***y. A veiled threat is still a threat. An subtle insult is still an insult. I've got no time for any of that.

Don't make threats or insults if you can't or won't make them clear. Don't tell me you'll call me back if you won't. If you're not a "HELL YES!", you're a "no". Nothing in between, please.

Life's too short.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

damn Doc....tease us some more!!! Can you at least let us know if there will be a blue available? I am hoping on my Christmas bonus and need a blue dialed watch. Nacken is sweet and sexy. But I would be surprised if a Blue Nacken Renegade is Not Roxy n'Foxy as well.



docvail said:


> Big fan of the Nackens, generally. Can't wait to show you guys the Nacken Renegade. It's "need to change my shorts" hot.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> damn Doc....tease us some more!!! Can you at least let us know if there will be a blue available? I am hoping on my Christmas bonus and need a blue dialed watch. Nacken is sweet and sexy. But I would be surprised if a Blue Nacken Renegade is Not Roxy n'Foxy as well.


I've already said too much.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> I've already said too much.


Said with nearly the shortest Doc post ever!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> Said with nearly the shortest Doc post ever!


I've had shorter.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## J.D.B. (Oct 12, 2009)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Raising my glass to YOU Chris! You hooked me UP! I sent you my poor, molested Spectre along with a fresh movement. I just received (very quickly) one completely refreshed machine of beauty! To your health, Chris! This is "Lucky #7".


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> I've had shorter.
> 
> Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


TWSS


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Doc you now have one more Nazario preorder. Question is which one will I see first, the Nazario or the DevilRay? (I am not looking for an answer here)


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

Chris, did you ever collaborate with other watchmakers or did you think about it ? In terms of creating a watch. 
Two great microbrands may create something super great and supplement each other in the way they and their customers need


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

s.z said:


> Chris, did you ever collaborate with other watchmakers or did you think about it ? In terms of creating a watch.
> Two great microbrands may create something super great and supplement each other in the way they and their customers need


Funny you ask that now.

A few years back, Chip, Sujain and I bounced the idea around. It was back when the NE88 had just come out, but none of us felt confident in our ability to sell enough of them to meet the manufacturer's MOQs for cases, at least not at a price where we'd make enough money to justify the costs, risks, and time spent on doing it.

The basic idea was that we'd agree on one case design, but then we'd all come up with our own version of the watch, using our own dials/handsets, color combos, etc.

We ended up seeing a lot of potential problems - we'd all be coming out with identically-spec'd models at the same time, putting us all into direct competition with each other. What if we ended up designing something similar to one or both of the others? It's not far-fetched. Chip and I have similar design sensibilities. What if we couldn't agree on the case size, style, and specs? We didn't know if we could coordinate our production schedules to sync up at the right time, when we were all ready.

So, we basically just shelved the idea, and went back to running our businesses separately.

Last week, a different micro-brand owner reached out to gauge my interest in doing something co-designed/co-branded/co-sold, etc.

Nothing against the brand, because I like them, but like I said in my post above, if my gut doesn't scream "HELL YES!", I'm a "no".

I didn't see the point. The other brand is doing well. They don't "need" me. I'm doing well enough. I don't really "need" them. If I'm going to partner with anyone to do anything, I want to partner with someone who can do things I can't do, and needs me to do things they can't do, so we're not making each other redundant, and we need to really be in sync with our mindsets. I can't see myself being in business with another stubborn/strong-willed micro-brand owner.

Like, imagine Jason Lim from Halios. Super nice guy. We get along really well. But he makes business decisions which are completely different than the decisions I make, and while I like his design style generally, we're not as in-sync on design as I am with Aaron and Rusty, so I could see us butting heads over it.

And, ultimately, I have to admit, I need to be in charge. I'm really not good at letting others lead. I can't stand spending ten minutes trying to organize a dinner for 6 people. I'd lose my mind if I had to get agreement from another brand on every decision that goes into getting a new model made. The process already takes too long as it is, when I'm the only guy making the big decisions.

Sujain and Chip are my two closest friends in the biz. If I was going to do something like that, they'd have had the best shot. If I couldn't make it work with either of them, I don't think I can make it work with anyone.

I'm not really sure the pie is big enough. I'm barely compensated for a lot of the work I put into new model development. Doing something with another brand sounds like more work, for a smaller slice of the pie. The pie would have to get A LOT bigger for the deal to make sense, and be worth my time.

That's not to say I'd never do anything co-branded, or co-designed, per se. Look at the Nazario, currently in pre-order through Watch Gauge. We had that design already, but it easily could have been a special, co-designed limited edition, and I think I'll end up doing some stuff like that in the future, where I work with another business to create something that's a special version of one of our models, but offered exclusively through a partnership with them. I don't think it will be micro-brands, but more likely resellers who want something only they can sell, and want me to produce it.


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

you know what you are saying - it is felt in words, talking from your experience you've answered it all) , no need for additional questions.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

s.z said:


> you know what you are saying - it is felt in words, talking from your experience you've answered it all) , no need for additional questions.


Thats a long haiku

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 12732331


I know this isn't right, but every time I see your avatar, I think I'm looking at a screen-shot from some Japanese video-bowling game from the '80's, like it's giving you three options for how you want to roll the ball.

Don't choose the middle one. You'll end up with a 7-10 split. The bonus triangular pin in the back is just a decoy to get you to fall for the middle path. Go for the two on the outside. The goal is total points, not bonus points.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> I know this isn't right, but every time I see your avatar, I think I'm looking at a screen-shot from some Japanese video-bowling game from the '80's, like it's giving you three options for how you want to roll the ball.
> 
> Don't choose the middle one. You'll end up with a 7-10 split. The bonus triangular pin in the back is just a decoy to get you to fall for the middle path. Go for the two on the outside. The goal is total points, not bonus points.


Reminds me more of this being a HS fan.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> Reminds me more of this being a HS fan.
> 
> View attachment 12732471


That's just the undercarriage of this:









I'm talking about RedZebra's avatar, that funky, "which way you want to roll the ball?" image.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This probably deserves its own thread, but I'm kind of over trying to have friendly discussions on WUS, because they all seem to end up snarky, so I'll just ask this here...

Have you guys ever seen a watch that you really liked, only to realize you were just looking at a really well-done photograph, and the watch really wasn't all that?

If so, did you ever end up buying it before you realized it wasn't the watch you liked, just the picture of it?

I guess this would be the opposite of "pics don't do it justice". More like, "pics do it way too much justice".

I don't necessarily mean that the pics didn't show quality issues, though I imagine that's pretty common. I mean more along the lines of, you actually thought you really liked the looks of the watch, but then, in person, meh, and you realize you only liked it because of how awesome the photo was.

I used to have that happen with toys when I was a kid. On TV, the kids would be running their RC cars over complex dirt tracks, with a rock soundtrack, and freaking out when the car did spin-outs in the dirt, always shown in slow motion.

Then, I'd get the car, and it'd be like, meh, it ain't the same on the living room carpet, or out in the driveway. There's no music playing, so all we get is that whiny electric motor sound.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

docvail said:


> This probably deserves its own thread, but I'm kind of over trying to have friendly discussions on WUS, because they all seem to end up snarky, so I'll just ask this here...
> 
> Have you guys ever seen a watch that you really liked, only to realize you were just looking at a really well-done photograph, and the watch really wasn't all that?
> 
> ...


Yes, quite a few felt meh after receiving them. 

Edit : Btw Doc, I missed your old avatar. No kidding.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Yes, quite a few felt meh after receiving them.
> 
> Edit : Btw Doc, I missed your old avatar. No kidding.


I'm gonna stick with the smashmouth avatar for a little while, at least.

If the current trend in the forum continues, I may go back to crazy-hair, angry-drunk Nolte as my avatar:


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Nick Nolte is better than that "worth what you paid" fist. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Nick Nolte is better than that "worth what you paid" fist.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


.

Not as good as "You were caught speeding in Takoma Park, that'll be $40" face.










#EffTakomaPark

#TurnSignalsAreForIndicatingATurnNumbnuts

#IHopeYourTownCouncilGetsHepC


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

docvail said:


> I'm gonna stick with the smashmouth avatar for a little while, at least.
> 
> If the current trend in the forum continues, I may go back to crazy-hair, angry-drunk Nolte as my avatar:
> 
> View attachment 12732793


Back where it all started ! Do it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jlow28 said:


> Back where it all started ! Do it!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Can't do it. Whenever I use crazy-hair, angry-drunk Nolte as my avatar, someone always tries to make a joke about Gary Busey.

I mean, c'mon. I can't even.

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

docvail said:


> Have you guys ever seen a watch that you really liked, only to realize you were just looking at a really well-done photograph, and the watch really wasn't all that?
> 
> If so, did you ever end up buying it before you realized it wasn't the watch you liked, just the picture of it?
> 
> .


Helgray Le Mans. It's so flat. I bought it second-hand and sold it within days. Decent overall design, awful execution and implementation.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> This probably deserves its own thread, *but I'm kind of over trying to have friendly discussions on WUS*, because they all seem to end up snarky, so I'll just ask this here...
> 
> Have you guys ever seen a watch that you really liked, only to realize you were just looking at a really well-done photograph, and the watch really wasn't all that?
> 
> ...


Eh, you're just too friendly. So friendly in fact that when you comment on another's thread it tends to be derailed into discussing just how friendly you are.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Eh, you're just too friendly. So friendly in fact that when you comment on another's thread it tends to be derailed into discussing just how friendly you are.


----------



## huwp (Nov 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> Have you guys ever seen a watch that you really liked, only to realize you were just looking at a really well-done photograph, and the watch really wasn't all that?
> 
> If so, did you ever end up buying it before you realized it wasn't the watch you liked, just the picture of it?


Tactico Anko kinda fits this description, at least partially. It has one great trick, where the dial and bezel all light up in shining gold together when the light hits it just right, and they captured this effect to perfection in the pre-release product shots. I mean, when the light comes together it really does look like that, and you can capture nice photos at home that look a bit like the product shots so the photos weren't exactly misleading - but it doesn't look like that most of the time, it looks much flatter. I still own mine, still like it and still wear it, and think it is a nice looking watch but the reality isn't up there with the spectacular photography.


----------



## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

docvail said:


> Have you guys ever seen a watch that you really liked, only to realize you were just looking at a really well-done photograph, and the watch really wasn't all that?
> If so, did you ever end up buying it before you realized* it wasn't the watch you liked, just the picture of it?*..


Whoa! Move ova Jacques Lacan.

Indeed. We never like the thing, anything, but always only the imaginary moment of its idealized perfect state.
Which is about as real as our own daydreams.
Hence the inexhaustible supply of girls and watches and cars in deceptive poses,... and high divorce rates (when the poo of the Real hits the fan of your existential void).

Really, does anyone ACTUALLY like watches, except the engineers / designers who create them?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

There's definitely an art to product photography, and it's a philosophical question to ponder, if it's better to over-flatter the product or under-flatter it, assuming a perfect representation can't be had in a 2D image.

The question came to mind as I was looking at a pic of a watch earlier today, and realized as I was looking at it that I didn't even like the watch, but it was just a really well-done photograph, that it caught my eye, and got me to stop and look at it.

I wonder how many purchases are made, not because someone saw a well-done photo of a watch they liked, but because a well-done photo actually got them to like the watch. Maybe not entirely, but perhaps they might have been on the fence about it, and the photo pushed them over the edge.

Part of how I look at this stuff comes from the fact that I'm personally not very good at photography, and while I hire professionals, it's mostly to do the official soldier-image stuff, not the more detailed "lifestyle" type of shots I see being used to promote a lot of watches. I'm talking about the staged photos with the sunglasses-gloves-notebook type of arrangement you see in a lot of Kickstarter projects.

The photos I'm paying to have done are more "clinical" - sterile background, front-side-back shots. Those are the shots Google pulls for their product ads, so we have to have them, but also, my thinking is I don't want people complaining that they didn't realize how thick the watch was, or wanted to know what it looked like from the back, so I make sure every product page has the sterile shot taken from three sides, plus a lume shot.

But some of the photos I see are really well done. I know Chip does his own photos for Aevig, and his shots always look really nice.





















I have no idea how much time he spends setting up and editing. Even if I had the skill, I don't have the time.

Sujain generally gets good photography, too. I don't know if Nadim does his own photography for Helgray, but I have to give him credit for having good imagery.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Have you guys ever seen a watch that you really liked, only to realize you were just looking at a really well-done photograph, and the watch really wasn't all that?
> 
> If so, did you ever end up buying it before you realized it wasn't the watch you liked, just the picture of it?


Yes. (and no, didn't buy it). Yesterday, in fact. In the recent thread about citizen watches, there's a few shots that look great. And I went looking on ebay etc., and there's one seller that has a bunch of these atomic/titanium/sapphire citizen watches with amazing images. Took me quite some time before I was able to separate the impression those shots gave from the impression I get from the watch itself in neutral views.

A little while longer back (and constantly tbh, on these forums), the oris 65 was like that. I still love it in almost every (well-taken) picture I see; problem is, it didn't look so nice on my wrist, so I ended up selling it.

Oh, also, Orient Star Seeker GMT was THE BOMB approx. three years ago. Glad I didn't end up buying one - would have been an almost instant release.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chronopolis said:


> Whoa! Move ova Jacques Lacan.
> 
> Indeed. We never like the thing, anything, but always only the imaginary moment of its idealized perfect state.
> Which is about as real as our own daydreams.
> ...


Speaking for the designers...maybe this is part of the problem, for me.

When Aaron, Rusty and I are designing a watch, we can get pretty jazzed up about it. By the time we're ready to reveal it to the world, after working on it for months, I wonder if we're underestimating the value of imagery to help sell it, because we've spent so long thinking it's awesome.

People often say that the photos don't do the real thing justice. It's just not in my nature to try to use photography to over-flatter the product, partly because I see that as being somewhat dishonest, but also because, perhaps stupidly/stubbornly, I think the product is awesome, and it should sell itself, without needing to be glamorized with "Barbara Walters" lighting and cheesy props.

It's the same reason you won't see a photo of me with a jeweler's loupe perched on my forehead, looking like a fat unicorn. When I see a brand owner doing that, and I know they're outsourcing assembly, just like me, it comes across as fake.

I'm a product designer, not a watchmaker. The only time I wear a loupe is when I need to see something really small. It would be more appropriate to photograph me hunched over my laptop than hunched over an open watch.

It's probably the same reason I don't make a big deal about some things, like the adjustment thing. I want people to sell themselves, and everything I do to sell them makes me worry that they'll be let down by reality. That can't happen if I'm not over-selling the product.

But...maybe I need to start investing in better imagery.


----------



## huwp (Nov 10, 2015)

I have watches where I like 'em on my wrist better than any photo I have ever seen or have managed to take of them (examples Orient x Somes green, Seiko SRP701)

I've had watches where I like photos of them, including photos I've taken myself, but I end up feeling underwhelmed by the reality on the wrist (prime example Seiko Cocktail Time - I'll admit this is often driven by being too small for my taste)

I've seen individual pictures of watches that have looked absolutely luscious, but after searching for other photos of it I've seen things that have convinced me I wouldn't like the reality. I've purchased watches where this has happened, and learned a bit more about my tastes.

I've seen photos of watches that make me suspect I'd like the watch in reality more than in the photo - likely because of a feature that is prominent in photos that is probably not as domineering in real life (prime example, cross-hairs on dials), but I'm not willing to take the risk.

I've seen a LOT of photos that have left me completely cold, but hey, it takes all sorts.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yes. (and no, didn't buy it). Yesterday, in fact. In the recent thread about citizen watches, there's a few shots that look great. And I went looking on ebay etc., and there's one seller that has a bunch of these atomic/titanium/sapphire citizen watches with amazing images. Took me quite some time before I was able to separate the impression those shots gave from the impression I get from the watch itself in neutral views.
> 
> A little while longer back (and constantly tbh, on these forums), the oris 65 was like that. I still love it in almost every (well-taken) picture I see; problem is, it didn't look so nice on my wrist, so I ended up selling it.
> 
> Oh, also, Orient Star Seeker GMT was THE BOMB approx. three years ago. Glad I didn't end up buying one - would have been an almost instant release.


I think Orient is like the Bizarro Seiko. Seiko's official photography is the worst. The watches always look better in real life. Orient seems to be the opposite.

The Oris 65 is one I just don't get. When it first came out, I thought it was cool, but I quickly got tired of seeing it. Maybe because it was such a huge hit with everyone. I've seen them in person, and didn't feel anything. It's just meh, to me.

A sort of similar watch, but one that has the opposite effect, is the Smiths Everest. It photographs well, but it's even better in person.

The Seiko Alpinist always looks great in people's pics. In person, it's a tiny, cluttered mess (IMO).

The Seiko Marine Master 300 isn't anything special in most pics. In real life, it's awesome.

But at least, with most of the watches I've seen that look better or worse in real life, at least it looks like the watch. The photo I saw today was so good it took me a few seconds to realize I didn't even like the watch. The photo was that flattering. But the more I looked at it, the more I saw that I didn't like, and I can only imagine someone buying it, then actually getting it, and the sense of letdown they must feel.

I'd really like to see the new Visitor Vale Park Officer in person. I know kpjimmy has one, and he's been posting some good shots to IG. There's a guy in the microbrands group on Facebook who has one, and he's been absolutely killing it with the photos he's been posting almost daily. It looks amazing.









My personal one is the Certina DS-1. It was a forum darling about 3 or 4 years ago. I lusted after it for at least 6 months, before I finally saved up and pulled the trigger. As soon as I opened the box, I felt deflated. It was a nice enough watch, but it looked so flat compared to how it looked in pics online.

He's not around much anymore, but then-forum-regular Drew Pflaumer (dpflaumer) had one that he'd sold before I got mine, and I remember emailing him to ask if I was crazy, or if it was way over-hyped. He confirmed it was way over-hyped. I remember he said something like, he thought it would be the poor-man's Tag Carrera, but it had none of the Tag's soul.

In online pics, the dial looks glossy black, and the crystal completely clear. In real life, the dial is more of a matte charcoal gray, and there's no AR at all on the crystal, so the whole effect is just muted and monochromatic.

Such a shame, as that design had so much potential, but they basically just "phoned it in", and overcompensated with enhanced photos.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> But...maybe I need to start investing in better imagery.


It could help. Put it this way - how many people ever bought a Seiko based on the stock photo on Amazon? Now, how many people have bought a JDM seiko based on watchtanaka youtube turntable or seiyajapan pictures?

I entirely believe that the outsized popularity of jdm seikos is not only because the designs are nicer (some are...), but also, in large part, because the photos of them are (almost) always miles better than what we see from western sellers.

Another comparison... check out the product catalog of Stowa (e.g. https://www.stowa.de/en/shop/ ), and the product catalog of Nomos (e.g. https://www.jebsen.com/Jebsen/media/Jebsen/Nomos_Catalog_Eng.pdf ). That is an excellent case study of non-instagram-style product photography in two very different takes. Stowa has these sterile images of just the watch - very professionally lit, but no background, no scene, no story to the image. Nomos tends to put artfully assembled scenes in their product catalogs, in addition to the sterile views. And, imo, that helps significantly with their brand image and appeal (for nomos... idk if the all-sterile take doesn't hurt stowa a bit).

Now, if you go upmarket with your photography... do you go the instagram-style route, the sterile-style route, or the artsy style route? Because nearly all microbrands are doing the instagram style photography (brown tones, deep woody textures, a camera or audio gear or EDC stuff or gloves in scene). You still have a chance of distinguishing your brand(s) by taking different style photos.

Edit: ah, the vale park. Mmmmyeah. I'd also love to see it irl. In a lot of instagram shots it looks great, but thinking about it.. mmm hard to say.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> It could help. Put it this way - how many people ever bought a Seiko based on the stock photo on Amazon? Now, how many people have bought a JDM seiko based on watchtanaka youtube turntable or seiyajapan pictures?
> 
> I entirely believe that the outsized popularity of jdm seikos is not only because the designs are nicer (some are...), but also, in large part, because the photos of them are (almost) always miles better than what we see from western sellers.
> 
> ...


I've mostly been reposting other people's pics to my social media, plus a handful of my own, when I manage to get something halfway decent.

Among the other-people's-pics, there are a fair number of good ones, taken by guys who are decent, if not good, or even great photographers.

That artsy, brown-tones, EDC-stuff type of imagery seems to be ubiquitous right now, but maybe that's because it works?

The other style I see a lot is the blue-tone "splash" photography, almost always with a black backdrop. Watch being dropped into the water, watch coming out of the water, etc. Apparently that's to let us know the watch is water-resistant.

Of course, there's also the "cockpit" shot for pilot watches and racing-themed stuff. Nothing says, "I drive fast" like a watch pictured against a Porsche steering wheel (Ric - can we make that happen?).

It may all seem stereotypical or cliched, but if it works, who am I to argue with it, and what would I do differently?

The only recurring watch-imagery I've been known for is the tube-sock-full-of-Invictas, and I don't know how well a picture of that is going to sell an NTH.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> [...] and what would I do differently?


Use photoshop cut&paste?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Use photoshop cut&paste?
> View attachment 12733421


Easily the single-most ridiculed ad campaign for a watch, ever.

We'll start with that as a benchmark. We can only improve.

Aaannnndd....1:30am. I gotta go to sleep.

G'night, gents. I'm out.

PEACE!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

No pic editing needed









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Sarcasm


Yeah, but only because it is true.

As for the stylistic promo shot sure they can help grab someone's attention but they can also be received negatively (see earlier in the thread about the devil ray review and Leo). You can't please everyone etc.

You dabbled with this a bit for the phantom pilot shoot. I think it worked well because you had your sterile shots to back it up to help mitigate that fall flat in person effect. Those EDC I just dropped my stuff on the table and took a quick shot pics can very easily come across cheesy if you don't have the eye for them. Aevig stylistically does a does a pretty good job but even they throw in a couple sterile shots to bring you back to earth. I'm going off point but what I'm trying to say is imo fancy photos are good for getting a customer's attention but proper product shots should be used to keep them.

Checking out Aevig's site does point out one way to help you achieve this without too much effort. Put those reviews to work on the product pages. If you think borrowing a picture (with permission of course) or using a quote is too forward try linking to them directly instead of to the generic press review page.

Edit: Along a similar line of thought your quick and dirty devil ray bracelet video did a lot to inspire confidence that I wouldn't be disappointed upon arrival.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> a photo of me with a jeweler's loupe perched on my forehead, looking like a fat unicorn


I. Can't. Even.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Yep









Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

I also want to see the Visitor's VPO in real life. I really like all that I've seen from Visitor, and was hoping the Shallows was going to go somewhere. I want to see any and all of these in person. I've almost purchased a few different times, and I believe they will be nice in person too.

But you never know until it happens.

I tend not to trust pictures too much. It is far too easy to Photoshop and touch up and light exactly right. The pictures I like best are the ones that are similar to what I can take. Not edited, not staged, but more "everyday life" type pictures. This is just personal preference. I try to find pictures that are posted by people actually wearing or at least in possession of the watch.

Show me both. Take your best shots, your staged shots, your edited shots. But also show me some more natural ones. Hand on steering wheel, wrist shot, EDC shot, in the office by the keyboard shot... Heck, take em with your cell phone!

I'm happy to pre order off some good renders from trusted sources, like yours Doc. This is because I'm getting in on our order pricing and have confidence that I'll like it or worst case can flip it easily.

If I'm trying to buy a released product, I look for "user" pictures and or reviews. I really like following the prototypes floating around (like the Devil Rays). There are plenty of both types or there, the super great photos as well as the "I'm gonna snap this real quick and post it right now" shots. I appreciate both!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Yeah, but only because it is true.


For whatever it's worth, I don't want to assume your sarcasm was meant to be funny, but you were also making the point that I'm the one making the discussions unfriendly, rather than agreeing with me on what I meant, which is that, generally, the tone of the forum isn't as friendly as it used to be.

I admit that I've unfortunately been sucked into some unfriendly exchanges here, but I will not admit that I've been the one making things unfriendly, certainly not any time recently. It's unfortunate that people seem to confuse "many words" with "angry tone", but that's their issue, not mine.

If someone doesn't like the content or length of my posts, they're free to skip past them, or hide all my posts by adding me to their ignore list. There's no excuse for making personal attacks on me or anyone else because you disagree with something that's been said, or how it's said, or how many words were used to say it.

It's an unfortunate habit of mine that I'm more likely to respond to an attack than ignore it, but that doesn't excuse the attack, and my responses are generally pretty measured.

With almost 20,000 posts on this forum, I've yet to receive a temporary ban, I've only ever received one infraction, and it's been at least two years since any of my posts were deleted by the moderators. Many of the guys who trolled me got banned. The lack of moderator intervention with my posts would seem to indicate that I've kept my cool in all but a small handful of situations, and despite being in a few arguments, I'm otherwise a model citizen around here.

If I was breaking the rules, or causing problems, everyone would know it. The worst thing that can be said about me is that I take the troll-bait way too easily, a fault I've been working on for some time.

I defy anyone to go find a recent example of my entering any thread just to berate someone - remember, number of words does not equate to tone. With even the most ridiculous posts, my responses are well-reasoned, and devoid of personal attacks. I've gone out of my way to treat guys with respect, and give them the benefit of the doubt, even when others were piling on.

What I said is what I meant. The level of discourse on this forum has gone down in the last few years, which has lead to me participating less, commenting in fewer threads, and starting far fewer. Call me argumentative if you must, but please don't suggest I'm the one starting $h1t when $h1t gets started.

I don't trust many of the members to keep things civil, unfortunately the mods can't be omnipresent, and it seems to be the case that they'll tolerate trolling for a good while, so long as none of the forum's rules are explicitly broken. It's to the point where I don't even want to comment at all in some threads, no matter how polite my comments may be.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Leave us alone with your logic and rational thinking you meenie! :-( :-|



I do agree that there has been a fairly regular uptick in "trolliness" and or drive by impoliteness and mean spiritedness around here. It has always been fairly heavy in the public forum however it is leaking all over and unfortunately dripping heavinly into the laid back pond of the affordable forum.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

I'm not active enough to comment on the overall attitude of the board over time.

My comment is only sarcastic in that you being legitimately friendly (helpful) ended up being interpreted as quite the opposite because "the internet". No judgement here.

I have a suspicion it would have ended up that way regardless you were just "lucky" enough to be the main catalyst.

Have a cider and enjoy the snow!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> I'm not active enough to comment on the overall attitude of the board over time.
> 
> My comment is only sarcastic in that you being legitimately friendly (helpful) ended up being interpreted as quite the opposite because "the internet". No judgement here.
> 
> ...


That's how I took your meaning, but I appreciate the clarification just the same.

Recently I've been trying to remind myself that 80% of what I see on the internet is just pointless, over-emotional arguing, and logic/reasoning doesn't seem to have much value for very many people. No sense in trying to inject logic or an attempt to help when someone's real purpose is to rant about a problem, not solve it. That's something which I still find difficult to wrap my head around.

The sad thing is that a lot of people's "problems" are completely avoidable and/or solvable, if they're willing to take some personal responsibility and change their habits. Here again, I have to remind myself that humans are generally more comfortable complaining about self-made problems than they are addressing the habits which lead to those problems, over and over again.

Now, if you'll all excuse me, I've got some "don't take the bait" practice to do...

Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Now, if you go upmarket with your photography... do you go the instagram-style route, the sterile-style route, or the artsy style route? Because nearly all microbrands are doing the instagram style photography (brown tones, deep woody textures, a camera or audio gear or EDC stuff or gloves in scene). You still have a chance of distinguishing your brand(s) by taking different style photos.


Since that Helgray, this annoys me to no end. I know that the instagram and marketing shots are filtered, and altered to look perfect, but I thought/maybe naively believed the webstore/shop photos of the watch would be actual photos of the watch. Instead, they're altered to make a bezel shine and a dial gleam. It's so dishonest, it's bordering on fraudulent.

It's funny, DVI INC. mentioned a Certina DS. I have a Titanium Certina DS-1 with a sunburst blue dial and both the bracelet and dial look way better in person than they do on the website. Same with Bernhardt's Binnacle.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pb9610 said:


> Since that Helgray, this annoys me to no end. I know that the instagram and marketing shots are filtered, and altered to look perfect, but I thought/maybe naively believed the webstore/shop photos of the watch would be actual photos of the watch. Instead, they're altered to make a bezel shine and a dial gleam. It's so dishonest, it's bordering on fraudulent.
> 
> It's funny, DVI INC. mentioned a Certina DS. I have a Titanium Certina DS-1 with a sunburst blue dial and both the bracelet and dial look way better in person than they do on the website. Same with Bernhardt's Binnacle.


I was about to make some point about online photos, but I had to stop typing to go pick up my son and his friend, who stupidly thought it was a good idea to walk around town in a blizzard.

We ended up grabbing my other son, and his friend, and the five of us spent ten minutes doing donuts and drifting in an empty parking lot around the corner, in my POS VW Passat. I'm now officially the coolest. dad. ever.

Don't even remember what it was I meant to say about photos or watches. Don't care. Just high on the afterglow of those sweet, parking lot donuts.

I made all the boys swear they wouldn't tell their parents. Don't need that hassle. One of the dads is a former pro boxer, and the other one is 6' 7".

I can fight a guy 6', maybe up to 6' 2", but that's just too much reach for me to give up.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Chris, brother, trust me. Your game, such as it may be, is all about the ground. You're effin' dead if you let them stay on their feet. Me? Remember that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark, when the two schmos were swinging their scimitars and HF shrugged and then shot them? If I can't outsmart 'em, I'm dead, whether on my feet or on the ground.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Chris, brother, trust me. Your game, such as it may be, is all about the ground. You're effin' dead if you let them stay on their feet. Me? Remember that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark, when the two schmos were swinging their scimitars and HF shrugged and then shot them? If I can't outsmart 'em, I'm dead, whether on my feet or on the ground.


Nah, never been much for the ground game.

I'm more like Mike Tyson. I get inside their reach, and bust 'em up in the inside. Make 'em fight in a phone booth.

"My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable, and I'm just ferocious." - Mike Tyson (before his fight with Lennox Lewis)

Also...

"He was just splendid, a masterful boxer, I take my hand [sic] off to him..he knows I love him and his mother..." - Mike Tyson (immediately following his defeat at the hands of Lennox Lewis)


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Ok, so this doesn't have anything to do with this thread, but I consider you all my friends and can't think of a better place to share.

My brother-in-law... Words cannot describe...

He loves his watch...

I snuck this picture at my kids play.

No words...









Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

To continue this just a little more...

He considers himself a "watch guy".

He's got this one, an Invicta,a few others if little note and wait-for-it

A Tag Heuer. He got the Tag from his place of employment, and it had said companies logo on it too, but it is a Tag, and it's nice.

But the watch above is his favorite and his go-to watch. He wears it everyday.

Again.... No words...

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

And just so you know, I was wearing this one!









Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> Ok, so this doesn't have anything to do with this thread, but I consider you all my friends and can't think of a better place to share.
> 
> My brother-in-law... Words cannot describe...
> 
> ...


Doc, thinking of doing a homage of this?


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

kendalw3 said:


> Ok, so this doesn't have anything to do with this thread, but I consider you all my friends and can't think of a better place to share.
> 
> My brother-in-law... Words cannot describe...
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with it if he enjoys wearing it.
I think it would be a stretch for him to be a "Watch Guy", but who are we to judge?
I am sure when people see me wearing my NTH they think nothing of it or they think "That is boring".

I guess if he starts bragging about how well he knows watches you could bring up famous horological facts to shut him down.
Just start bringing up the history of Grand Seiko's Spring Drive, the history of the Speedmaster, the technology of Damasko/Sinn, etc.


----------



## iceman66 (Feb 24, 2013)

kendalw3 said:


> Ok, so this doesn't have anything to do with this thread, but I consider you all my friends and can't think of a better place to share.
> 
> My brother-in-law... Words cannot describe...
> 
> ...


Model #?


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

In my first 2 or 3 months on WuSdom I fell in love with the Orient Bambino. I finally bought a ver 3, and found that I had a hard time looking at the roman numerals. This was 1 of the reasons why I wanted 1, looked elegant. I am not an elegant guy so not sure why I wanted it but was VERY disappointed putting it on my wrist. I wore it once and then gave it away.



docvail said:


> This probably deserves its own thread, but I'm kind of over trying to have friendly discussions on WUS, because they all seem to end up snarky, so I'll just ask this here...
> 
> Have you guys ever seen a watch that you really liked, only to realize you were just looking at a really well-done photograph, and the watch really wasn't all that?
> 
> ...


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Bro!!!!! A lil heads up would have been nice.

"Sunglasses MUST be equipped to view this Sundial of a piece."



kendalw3 said:


> Ok, so this doesn't have anything to do with this thread, but I consider you all my friends and can't think of a better place to share.
> 
> My brother-in-law... Words cannot describe...
> 
> ...


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> but was VERY disappointed putting it on my wrist.


Common refrain with Orient.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

kendalw3 said:


> Ok, so this doesn't have anything to do with this thread, but I consider you all my friends and can't think of a better place to share.
> 
> My brother-in-law... Words cannot describe...
> 
> ...


Lol! I love the over-the-top 24k granulated gold look - it reminds me of the cultures that like to wear 24k to show off their wealth. My local Silicon Valley multi-brand nice watch and jewelry store has recently started carrying an extensive 24k jewelry line to cater to this market. Big, gaudy, expensive, and obvious!

I was a jeweler in a former life, and I had a 24k ring once - a band with light granulation and enamel; totally impractical for daily wear due to the softness of the gold. Still, I wore it for a while until the enamel was mostly chipped off. Eventually, I gave it to my jeweler friend who melted it down (along with some other stuff) and made a nice chain from it, which my wife now has taken over.

I like that pure yellow gold look. I would never wear a watch like that, but kudos to the guy who has the huevos to pull it off! Will he look back at this moment in 20 years and go "WTF was I thinking?!?"

ETA: Shower thought - if the ancient Etruscans made watches for their royalty, they would look just like this!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just threw up a little bit in my mouth...


----------



## Sogeha (Jul 13, 2015)

docvail said:


> Speaking for the designers...maybe this is part of the problem, for me.
> 
> When Aaron, Rusty and I are designing a watch, we can get pretty jazzed up about it. By the time we're ready to reveal it to the world, after working on it for months, I wonder if we're underestimating the value of imagery to help sell it, because we've spent so long thinking it's awesome.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I've bought watches that looked great in the promo shots and were a bit or a lot underwhelming in reality. It took me a while to warm up to your brand because I'm a weirdo and I like what I know. However I really like that I look at your sales pictures and think "that's not bad, I like the lug droop and the dial and x,y,z, yes, that's okay", then I see real wrist shots from owners and I'm like "wow". In a world of photoshopped promo pictures and filters that is very refreshing. I also like your no bs attitude

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> I just threw up a little bit in my mouth...


My apologies Doc, but I needed to get it out of my system and share with those I knew would feel the same way. I see him at least once a week, and whatever he goes, so does that monstrosity he calls a watch.

I try to ignore it, but it's pretty hard to ignore that! Usually I mutter something under my breath attempt to say something cordial and carry on about my business.

He is an alright guy, and we get along well enough, but if he weren't family we'd probably not hang together. He is crazy in many more ways than one, but then again I guess we all have our things too.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Who here is good at math? I like to think I am, but this is one of those algebra problems that's a little more complex than just solving for the value of N when you know the value of the other parts of the equation.

The STP specs state that it will run +/- 15 seconds per day (or better/less), on average, in 5 positions, with no more than 15 seconds variation between positions.

So, +/- 15 with +/- 15 variation would be +/- 30, but the watch can't be +/- 30 seconds in any one position, otherwise, the average of the 5 positions wouldn't work out to be +/- 15.

Example: -30 dial up and +30 dial down would average out to be 0, but that would be 60 seconds variation between the two positions, which is too much variation, and out of spec.

So my question is, if the average of all 5 positions can be no more than +/- 15 per day, and there can be no more than 15 seconds difference between any of them, what is the MAXIMUM +/- reading we'd be able to see, in any one of those positions, before the watch would be out of spec?

EDIT - I want to say it's +/- 27 secs/day, because if you were +27 in one position, and +12 in the other four positions, that would average out to be +15 s/d, and there would be no more than 15 seconds between the highest and lowest readings.

If you were +/- 28, and all the others were no less than +/- 13 (15 seconds difference), the average would be +/- 16, which would be out of spec.

Anyone good at math - feel like checking me on this?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> My apologies Doc, but I needed to get it out of my system and share with those I knew would feel the same way. I see him at least once a week, and whatever he goes, so does that monstrosity he calls a watch.
> 
> I try to ignore it, but it's pretty hard to ignore that! Usually I mutter something under my breath attempt to say something cordial and carry on about my business.
> 
> ...


It's not just the gold watch, it's also those hairy hands.

What the hell? Is he part hobbit?

Filthy hobbitses. We hates them!


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

we interrupt this thread for a photo


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Watcher said:


> we interrupt this thread for a photo
> 
> View attachment 12737221


That may be the best strap-watch combo I've seen from you yet, Marvin!


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

thanks Chris! More Nths in my future, I'm sure. |>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Back on the cheesy advertising topic...have any of you guys seen the new bat$h1t crazy cologne commercial with Johnny Depp?

I just saw this, and on a scale from one to odd, I can't even...


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> It's not just the gold watch, it's also those hairy hands.
> 
> What the hell? Is he part hobbit?
> 
> Filthy hobbitses. We hates them!


I literally fell on the floor laughing, tears in my eyes as I'm writing this! Well played sir!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

docvail said:


> Who here is good at math? I like to think I am, but this is one of those algebra problems that's a little more complex than just solving for the value of N when you know the value of the other parts of the equation.
> 
> The STP specs state that it will run +/- 15 seconds per day (or better/less), on average, in 5 positions, with no more than 15 seconds variation between positions.
> 
> ...


I guess the question in my head is: Is (average variation per day) = (sum of measured variations in all 5 positions) / 5 ? If so, your 27 in one position, 12 in others looks like it should be correct.

If on the other hand the (average variation per day) is an actual measured value, or not necessarily the mean value of the other 5 measurements, then it seems like it would depend on how they arrive at that value, and could potentially be more or less than 27, though not likely too far away from that.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Back on the cheesy advertising topic...have any of you guys seen the new bat$h1t crazy cologne commercial with Johnny Depp?
> 
> I just saw this, and on a scale from one to odd, I can't even...
> ​


​
He's gone full Nicolas Cage.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Back on the cheesy advertising topic...have any of you guys seen the new bat$h1t crazy cologne commercial with Johnny Depp?
> 
> I just saw this, and on a scale from one to odd, I can't even...


I had 2 thoughts while watching this:
- If he leaves his door and trunk lid open, he's gonna have a dead battery when he gets back.
- Did he put a watch in that hole? He'd better put it in a plastic bag!

Clearly I'm not the target audience for Sausage - I mean Sauvage - cologne.



ryan92084 said:


> [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
> 
> He's gone full Nicolas Cage.


Never go full Nicolas Cage!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

This just in.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> This just in.
> 
> View attachment 12737525


Wait....what?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> Wait....what?


That's a Jelliotz modded prototype with Scorpene hands, an aftermarket face from eBay, and a Jublilee bracelet from that Chinese website that starts with an A and ends with a li. Who says you can't modify an NTH. I don't even remember which version the case was prototyping, but it has a greyish bezel.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The Watcher said:


> we interrupt this thread for a photo
> 
> View attachment 12737221


That is the best watch/strap combo I've seen anywhere. The stitching shape/colour matches ideally with the indices. Custom order?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Back on the cheesy advertising topic...have any of you guys seen the new bat$h1t crazy cologne commercial with Johnny Depp?
> 
> I just saw this, and on a scale from one to odd, I can't even...


Heh. Well, I've seen it now, thanks doc!

Tbh I thought that, as far as commercials go, this one was pretty neat and enjoyable.

On a straight reading, the "story" is pretty clear - the guy is finding out that visual accessories are less necessary than fragrance/scents. hence giving up glitzy guitars, driving out of moody sparkly town into desert, and burying all the wrist-bangles, necklaces etc..

On an ironic take, the commercial pokes fun at itself and commercials in general, but cramming into itself pretty much every "americana for bros" advertisement cheapshot: city-at-night, a rock guitar, classic 'american' rock riff, a muscle car, a 'wild-west' style desert canyon environment, a coyote, a buffalo, (iirc an eagle ?), Ray-Ban(?) shades, Johnny Depp, and nonsensical-but-sexyvoiced narration. Pretty much everything necessary to make the Chads, Brocks, Tophers and Hunters of the world (or at least US) to get all hot-and-bothered.

Or, on a cynical take, the suits in charge of making that advertisement planned for all that stuff in above paragraph, but as a genuine effort instead of ironic deconstruction.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

docvail said:


> Who here is good at math? I like to think I am, but this is one of those algebra problems that's a little more complex than just solving for the value of N when you know the value of the other parts of the equation.
> 
> The STP specs state that it will run +/- 15 seconds per day (or better/less), on average, in 5 positions, with no more than 15 seconds variation between positions.
> 
> ...


Doc, I'm not clear about your question. Based on my understanding, this is more like statistics, than an algebra question.

1) STP specs state +/-15 sec per day, on average. To me, the average of 5 positions is X Bar, in statistic.

2) ... with no more than 15 seconds variation between 5 positions. This to me, is the Range, in statistic, Max - Min.

Your first example.
Position 1 - +27
Position 2 - +12
Position 3 - +12
Position 4 - +12
Position 5 - +12

X Bar = (27+12+12+12+12)/5 = +15, passed 1)
Range = Max (27) - Min (12) = 15, passed 2)

2nd example.
Position 1 - +28
Position 2 - +13
Position 3 - +13
Position 4 - +13
Position 5 - +13

X Bar = (28+13+13+13+13)/5 = +16, failed 1)
Range = Max (+28) - Min (+13) = 15, passed 2)

3rd example.
Position 1 - +28
Position 2 - +19
Position 3 - +20
Position 4 - +16
Position 5 - +13

X Bar = (28+19+20+16+13)/5 = +19.2, failed 1)
Range = Max (+28) - Min (+13) = 15, passed 2)

4th example.
Position 1 - +2
Position 2 - -6
Position 3 - -1
Position 4 - -14
Position 5 - -5

X Bar = (+2-6-1-14-5)/5 = -4.8, passed 1)
Range = Max (+2) - Min (-14) = 16, failed 2)

Based on 4 examples above, only example 1 is fine, imo.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

If it is adjusted to 5 positions to meet +/-15s, wouldn't that indicate the guy regulating aims for +/-15s in each position? So then 15s variation between positions would mean if in one position it runs +5s, then in the other positions it can't run slower than -10s. That is how I would read it as an oblivious customer. 

If I were a watch maker, how would I regulate for an average in 5 positions? I'd need to account for the rate in each position I regulated, and calculate the average, to know when my next position I'm regulating for is within spec. Doesn't make much sense to me. I'd think a watch maker would simply try to adjust the watch within a fixed limit (+/-15s in this case), for each position, rather than calculating an average each time to know what that limit should be. 
So am inclined to think, that STP stating an "average" over 5 positions rather than +/-15s for "each" position, is simply adding a safety margin.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> That is the best watch/strap combo I've seen anywhere. The stitching shape/colour matches ideally with the indices. Custom order?


custom.
strap from italy.
link:
https://www.ebay.com/usr/theleatherstraps?_trksid=p2047675.l2559


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

The Watcher said:


> we interrupt this thread for a photo
> 
> View attachment 12737221


Love that strap.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> I had 2 thoughts while watching this:
> - If he leaves his door and trunk lid open, he's gonna have a dead battery when he gets back.
> - Did he put a watch in that hole? He'd better put it in a plastic bag!
> 
> ...


Holy crap, this actually got not one, but two LEGIT LOL's.

One when I saw the "S", the other when I saw the actual sausage pic up in the right.

OMG, I can't stop laughing.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Heh. Well, I've seen it now, thanks doc!
> 
> Tbh I thought that, as far as commercials go, this one was pretty neat and enjoyable.
> 
> ...


Without knowing which to think it was, that was sort of my take, "did they just jam every stupid cliche possible into one moronic commercial, or did I just miss the ninja-level irony in that?"

"Also, Buffalos don't live in the desert."

"And what's with the eye makeup? Is he about to cry?"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Iandk said:


> I guess the question in my head is: Is (average variation per day) = (sum of measured variations in all 5 positions) / 5 ? If so, your 27 in one position, 12 in others looks like it should be correct.
> 
> *If on the other hand the (average variation per day) is an actual measured value, or not necessarily the mean value of the other 5 measurements*, then it seems like it would depend on how they arrive at that value, and could potentially be more or less than 27, though not likely too far away from that.


So...you're saying you're good at math?

If I understand the part in bold, without actually emailing STP to ask them for clarification, my interpretation is that the movement is regulated such that the average daily reading of five positions is +/- 15 seconds, meaning that it's read ONCE in each of those five positions, and they take the average reading they get in those five positions, rather than taking more than one reading in each position, and averaging those readings for each position, which I think is what you were suggesting could be the alternative interpretation.



SimpleWatchMan said:


> Doc, I'm not clear about your question. Based on my understanding, this is more like statistics, than an algebra question.
> 
> 1) STP specs state +/-15 sec per day, on average. To me, the average of 5 positions is X Bar, in statistic.
> 
> ...


I mean, I guess I don't know the nuanced difference between stats and algebra to say for sure. I was thinking there must be a way to solve for N (highest number which could be included in 5 numbers to average to 15, without being more than 15 higher than the lowest number) algebraically, but I couldn't figure out how to structure the formula in order to do the math necessary to solve for N.

I ended up just building a simple spreadsheet with five columns, and readings from +30 to -30, averaging the values across them, and offsetting them by shifting columns up and down until I figured out 27-12-12-12-12 was the most extreme variation I could find that would average out to no more than +/- 15 with no more than 15 seconds between highest and lowest value.



Wimads said:


> If it is adjusted to 5 positions to meet +/-15s, wouldn't that indicate the guy regulating aims for +/-15s in each position? So then 15s variation between positions would mean if in one position it runs +5s, then in the other positions it can't run slower than -10s. That is how I would read it as an oblivious customer.
> 
> If I were a watch maker, how would I regulate for an average in 5 positions? I'd need to account for the rate in each position I regulated, and calculate the average, to know when my next position I'm regulating for is within spec. Doesn't make much sense to me. I'd think a watch maker would simply try to adjust the watch within a fixed limit (+/-15s in this case), for each position, rather than calculating an average each time to know what that limit should be.
> So am inclined to think, that STP stating an "average" over 5 positions rather than +/-15s for "each" position, is simply adding a safety margin.
> ...


I think the watchmaker aims for 0 in all positions tested, but the average of the 5 has to be no more than +/- 15, and none of the readings can be more than 15 seconds removed from any of the others.

So, he may be able to get it to 0 in dial up, but +15 crown up. That would be an okay start, since the two average out to less than 15, and they're not more than 15 apart. He'd have to make sure none of the next three positions are over 15, since he started with 0, and they also can't be less than 0, because he got +15 for his second reading, so the first two readings in this case establish the boundaries of the range for the 5 readings.

If he got 0 at first, he'd be looking for something between -15 and +15 for the second. Let's say he got +7 for the second. He then knows -8 is the bottom of his range, as -8 and +7 are 15 apart.

If he got +22 at first, he'd probably try to get it within 15 to start, but if his next readings were +7, +8, +9, he'd probably keep going, as the average should be okay.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I didn't tell my wife about the parking lot shenanigans with the boys Friday. I know she wouldn't approve. 

She can't figure out why they worship me. 

She feeds them, chauffeurs them to school in the morning, shuttles them to their friends' houses, listens to their problems, blah, blah, blah. 

I barely acknowledge their presence most of the time. 

It makes her nuts. 

I'm taking them to see Star Wars this afternoon. She agreed to do the laundry for me, which I'd otherwise be doing while watching football. 

She could have taken them, and stuck me with the laundry, but she'd rather do laundry than go see Star Wars. 

And she wonders why I'm the one getting all the high fives. 


Extra-strength Tapatalk should not be taken while operating heavy machinery. Use only as directed. See a doctor immediately if you have a talk that lasts more than four hours.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

We interrupt this thread for a lume shot.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

All yer gonna get, chris, is the low five youll give yourself, if you keep up this yacking 'bout your wife. 

And shutup about the math. Youre making me regret selling that Ginault. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Ohhh that blue 









Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> All yer gonna get, chris, is the low five youll give yourself, if you keep up this yacking 'bout your wife.
> 
> And shutup about the math. Youre making me regret selling that Ginault.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

docvail said:


> If I understand the part in bold, without actually emailing STP to ask them for clarification, my interpretation is that the movement is regulated such that the average daily reading of five positions is +/- 15 seconds, meaning that it's read ONCE in each of those five positions, and they take the average reading they get in those five positions, rather than taking more than one reading in each position, and averaging those readings for each position, which I think is what you were suggesting could be the alternative interpretation.


I guess what was in my mind was the COSC tests, though which without knowing the actual specific procedure, my interpretation of what I've read is that for each day that the testing is done on a movement, the average daily variation was not to exceed the specified amount, meaning it was a measured rather than a calculated number.

Now I'm pretty sure STP does not do a similar extensive 15 day test on each movement, but I was just musing about whether they just measure all 5 positions and average it, or maybe they do whatever they need to do and let it run for a given 24 hours, and if it's under 15 then that's okay. Or maybe they do really mean 'average daily rate for each of the 5 positions is +/- 15', but the language is sort of vague (at least, from the standpoint of a layman in this field; though well familiar with technical language meaning very specific things within other fields that is not necessarily obvious to those outside of it).


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> Who here is good at math? I like to think I am, but this is one of those algebra problems that's a little more complex than just solving for the value of N when you know the value of the other parts of the equation.
> 
> The STP specs state that it will run +/- 15 seconds per day (or better/less), on average, in 5 positions, with no more than 15 seconds variation between positions.
> 
> ...


Your logic is sound.

We have two conditions. The mean of the four numbers is between +-15 and the range is less than 15.

You already spotted that you'll get the worst individual result with one outlier and four other values balancing it. That gives us a set of simultaneous equations.

There are two answers but we'll focus on the positive one.

x is the rate in four positions.
y is the rate in the final position.

Positional variance:
y - x <= 15
Mean rate:
(4x + y) / 5 <= 15

Because we want the worst case, we use the situation of equality.

Subtract the equations and you'll get x = 12 and y = 27. But you already knew that.

I've been trying to work out how to get insight into not just the extremes but the distribution of values, but an assumption that the measurements are randomly distributed is clearly wrong.

From memory, the big variations are between the group of measurements with a flat balance (dial up etc.) and a gravity affected one (crown up etc.).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Please stop mathing all over the thread. Maybe (bear with me, I know this is gonna sound crazy), someone could post some watch pics instead?


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

You've got two beautiful watch shots 6 and 8 posts up. With no walls o text between I'd say the watches to words ratio is well above the average for this thread.



Ratfacedgit said:


> We interrupt this thread for a lume shot.









​


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Yeah, don't mix maths with watches... Here it's watches, then I'll work and it'll be maths...









Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmnc said:


> Your logic is sound.
> 
> We have two conditions. The mean of the four numbers is between +-15 and the range is less than 15.
> 
> ...


Only to put a cap on this (or, maybe just keep it going unnecessarily - time will tell)...

27-12-12-12-12 would be an extremely unlikely outcome, knowing that the watchmaker is aiming to get as close to 0 as possible in all positions.

What we usually see is that the values tend to be fairly close to each other, so the positional variance (the difference between the values) is low, regardless of the average (the overall accuracy).

Likewise, as you say, it seems like it's very rare to get a reading where the accuracy isn't at all affected by a change in plane from dial up/down to crown up/down or 12 up/down, so getting a steady reading in all positions of 12-12-12-12-12 is also extremely unlikely.

Lastly, while it's not entirely uncommon to see movements which will run fast (or slow) dial up/down and then the opposite in crown up/down, generally, when you see that, the readings are pretty close to zero, so you may see +2 +1, and -1 -2 (low variance of 4), but not usually +9 +10, then -5 -4 (higher variance of 14).

So, +10+9 dial up/down, +3+4 crown up/down, and +6, 12-up would be a more likely, to be expected outcome - average of 6.4, variance of 7 - acceptable, and within the manufacturer's specs, but not outstanding.

For those who care about such things, our experience has been that the Miyota 9015's generally run much better than spec (average daily rate pretty close to 0), with very high stability/low positional variance (well within spec).

If I test 10 Miyotas at random, I wouldn't be surprised to find all 10 running within 0-6 seconds per day, in four positions, and it wouldn't shock me if they all ran nearly identically to each other, say -3 to -5 or +3 to +5.

I've actually had almost that exact experience, when I tested 6 or 8 of them, and they were all running within a second of each other, which was freaky.

With the STP's, while they have better specs than the Miyotas, they don't seem as likely to be running that much better than spec, or with the same degree of positional stability (low variance).

If I test 10 at random, I'd expect to find a more random distribution of accuracy readings among the movements, and a wider range of readings for the different positions with each individual movement. They might all run well, but they wouldn't all run as well as the others, or as consistently in all positions.

Ironically, I think most people would prefer the performance profile of the Miyota (high positional stability/low variance, with a high degree of predictability/uniformity across movements), as it makes us think the movement is incredibly consistent (which it is), but the performance of the STP would make it easier for someone (someone who obsesses over accuracy) to use the positional variance to their advantage, to get a more accurate watch over a 24 hour period, with day-to-day wear.

What I mean is, if the Miyota runs -3 to -5 in all positions, you won't be able to get it closer to 0 over a 24 hour cycle by laying it down in a position where you know it'll run +7 overnight. But with the STP, if you know it runs +4 on the wrist, and -7 when laid down dial-up, you can use that larger positional variance to get closer to 0 sec/day by the next morning.

If you wore that watch for 16 hours, and set it down for 8 hours, you'd be at +0.3 with the STP, whereas if the Miyota ran -3, you'd likely always be at -3, no matter what you did.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I hope.....HOPE I never worry or care about such a fraction of a number on a watch. I HATE being late and I do try to set my watches as close as possible but -5 sec? Maybe when I am 80 and hours become minutes I may care, but by then I more then likely will not be able to see well.

Maybe if I had a job that a small fraction in time is needed but...Iono good on y'all to be able to get your time so close to Atomic time, that is what we all should set it on right? Or the World clock? Hmm..


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I have said many a time, that with timeliness you have two practical choices: Be early, or be late. Those are your effective choices, and if your job depends on being on time, choose the former, not the latter. What reasonable human would ever choose to be EXACTLY on time, given the vagaries of the world in which we live? There's always a red light, or a blocked intersection, or too many pedestrians, whatever. 

Doc said it best long ago (or some variant): the NH35 is good enough; the others are just showing off.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Doc said it best long ago (or some variant): the NH35 is good enough; the others are just showing off.


I don't remember saying that, but whenever it was, I was very clever that day.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

hwa said:


> All yer gonna get, chris, is the low five youll give yourself, if you keep up this yacking 'bout your wife.




__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)




----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Ratfacedgit said:


> View attachment 12741701


Great picture!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, just a heads up...

John from Watch Gauge finalized his order with me late last week, which means I'm locking in the assembly numbers with the factory.

The Nazario is going to be a 25-piece limited edition. That's all there will ever be. *There are 8 left available*. The rest are all sold. If you want one, I wouldn't wait.

He's already sold out of the Näcken Modern Black, no date, and he's down to just 2 with date. He's down to 6 pieces left of the Näcken Modern Blue, with date.

I asked my factory to make 15-25 pieces more than what John ordered because two of my resellers asked me to make some for them, and not all the same Subs versions John is getting. If not for those requests, I wouldn't have ordered any more at all for my own store.

I haven't yet confirmed/finalized all the numbers with the factory or the resellers, but my hunch is 1/3 to 1/2 of the added pieces will end up going to Singapore, and half of whatever's left will end up in my inventory - maybe 5-10 pieces, at most.

None of these "extra" 15-25 pieces will be available for purchase until we get them from the factory in March/April. I'm not accepting pre-orders for them. It will be first-come, first serve, when they're available for shipping.

After that, I think we may be done making those versions of the Näcken.

Again, if you want one, your window of opportunity is closing fast. I wouldn't wait.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I have one Nazario on order. Actually very tempted to order another knowing there will only be 25 made. Yes I am one of those terrible capitalists.


----------



## Kulprit (Oct 7, 2017)

Sitting here staring at my watch box, filled with dread because I may have to sell my Azores. Decided to take a family photo of these distant relatives in case the Azores does have to go bye-bye. ☹










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

docvail said:


> Guys, just a heads up...
> 
> John from Watch Gauge finalized his order with me late last week, which means I'm locking in the assembly numbers with the factory.
> 
> ...


What's Next?

What's this we hear about a Styx homage?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Autavia homage


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

yankeexpress said:


> Autavia homage


Riccardavia?







(doc don't hate me)

Side note: I wonder how much rage that lume at 6 and 9 would generate on the forums.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Riccardavia?
> View attachment 12745149
> 
> (doc don't hate me)
> ...


I can't even.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I've got more versions of the NTH Subs in the queue, plus I've been toying with some ideas for a "basic 3-hander", but haven't been able to focus on it enough to be committed to it. 

I've got a lot of irons in the fire for next year and beyond. Just stay tuned... 


New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Hey Doc. Any plans on making more leather straps for the Spectre II? I dragged my feet on ordering a black 1 and now of course gonzo!! The shipping charge was killing it for me but now I said screw it and well.....lol


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> I can't even.
> 
> New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


Thank you for the encouragement to finish my Frankenpiece!







what has been seen cannot be unseen


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Hey Doc. Any plans on making more leather straps for the Spectre II? I dragged my feet on ordering a black 1 and now of course gonzo!! The shipping charge was killing it for me but now I said screw it and well.....lol


I don't know what you're asking me.

The Spectre II wasn't sold with a leather strap. It was sold on a bracelet, and will come with a free rubber strap. Unless I'm mistaken about who you are, you didn't order one, and they're sold out.

The Spectre I came on a strap. I've still got plenty of the brown straps left, for sale on my website - 22mm Padded & Notched Leather Strap for SPECTRE - Tobacco Brown - Janis Trading Company.

The black straps are sold out, because we didn't make as many (actually, I have 2 left, but they're missing buckles, don't get me started). The straps for the Spectre I came from my old factory. I'm not planning to order more of them, because I'm not dealing with that factory any more.

The rubber straps I ordered for the Spectre II will be here soon, and they're available for sale on the site, if you're interested in one.

I don't sell a lot of straps, so I'm cutting back on the number I order and have for sale. I'm not making any more of the Spectre, I or II, after this current production (another reason I don't have any need for more Spectre straps).

The Spectre I strap was modeled after the Di-Modell Chronissimo strap, which isn't cheap, but is really nice (nicer than what we had made). You can find them online, in black, and maybe brown. Here's one - https://www.longislandwatch.com/Di_Modell_137010_watch_strap_p/137010.htm.

I'm not sure what the lug width is on that one, and it looks like they make them in different widths, so you'd want to check before buying. Here's another listing, with a drop-down for widths - Chronissimo BEST SELLER.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Thanks for the link and yes I did not order the II. I was on the fence to order a black 1 for my Spectre I when I grabbed a Devil but I did not know how the shipping would go down and didn't want it to be a hassle.

I was asking because the II is the same case so thought you might be restocking a few straps for people to have a different strap variety. I will check out the other choices and kick myself for being a dumbass lol.



docvail said:


> I don't know what you're asking me.
> 
> The Spectre II wasn't sold with a leather strap. It was sold on a bracelet, and will come with a free rubber strap. Unless I'm mistaken about who you are, you didn't order one, and they're sold out.
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Thanks for the link and yes I did not order the II. I was on the fence to order a black 1 for my Spectre I when I grabbed a Devil but I did not know how the shipping would go down and didn't want it to be a hassle.
> 
> I was asking because the II is the same case so thought you might be restocking a few straps for people to have a different strap variety. I will check out the other choices and kick myself for being a dumbass lol.


Alright, so...I think I'm following here.

You own a Spectre I. You want a black strap. I don't have any more, unless you want to play "find me a buckle" with one of the two I do have. Otherwise, you could order a brown strap, since I still have some.

If you had bought the strap within the same order as the DevilRay, we would have held onto the strap until the watch was ready to ship. It's no hassle at all, unless someone expects us to ship one item now, and another later, which isn't covered if we only charged shipping once, or if they got free shipping, by combining both in-stock and pre-order items into one order.

Thankfully, no one's given me a hassle about that, yet.

If you want to order one of the straps I have, do that, and just shoot me an email as soon as you place the order, asking me to combine it with your watch order. I'll do that, and just refund your shipping charge on the second order. No big deal.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

ryan92084 said:


> Thank you for the encouragement to finish my Frankenpiece!
> View attachment 12746145
> 
> what has been seen cannot be unseen


So I while back I built my own one-off Franken-Huey. It has a top grade eta 2824-2, H3 Tactical case, custom hands I think from OFREI. A MIL-TAT bracelet.

Just thought it would look cool.


























What's been done, cannot be undone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

ryan92084 said:


> Riccardavia?
> View attachment 12745149
> 
> (doc don't hate me)
> ...


Not gonna lie, this does things to me.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)




----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orthos ii mod today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Mil6161 said:


> Orthos ii mod today
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Always enjoy seeing that one. Looks great |>


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I know it's not the latest and greatest, but it looks like Phannum Phriday to me.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

NTH'n it today









Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys (and any strange women who might be lurking in this thread), it's that time of year, time for my annual introspective / retrospective wrap up. It's been both a strange and amazing year (plus a few months), to say the least.

Many of you know about the theft of inventory from our old warehouse, something which first became apparent in the fall of 2016, when we were shipping out the first batch of NTH Subs. That's not the sort of problem (more than 100 pieces stolen) that gets sorted out very quickly, and so that was one of the big challenges I was dealing with when this year started.

But, business must keep moving, so on the 3rd of January, Aaron and I began working on what would become the DevilRay. Some hilarity ensued. Some major frustrations also ensued. Don't get me started.

We delivered the NTH Tropics in May, then the second batch of Subs in August. Somewhere in there, we also made a 25-piece limited edition "Ghost Rider" version of the Phantom, came up with a new version of the Spectre, designed 8 more NTH Subs (to be revealed next year), and sold out (or damned close to it) all our other models.

I changed watchmakers 3 times this year. That wasn't fun, especially when the poo hit the fan just as I was about to leave for vacation. The current guy is like Jeff Spicoli's dad, the TV repairman from "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" - he has an awesome set of tools, and he can fix anything.

But, just the same, big thanks to Fred Amos of Bernhardt (and his watchmaker Frank) for stepping up to help me out of a jam this past Summer.

Big thanks to Chris Wiegand of Lum-Tec for helping me out in a number of ways, and to some other micro-brand owners as well, for their advice and insights at various times, on various subjects - Michael Seals of Seals Watches, Kyle Schut of Straton, Lee Dowell of Schmutz, Carlos Carvalho of Prometheus/Borealis, Nick Harris of Orion/Watches by Nick, and my own personal combination of Jiminy Cricket, Buddha and Yoda, Naoki Tsukumo of Gruppo Gamma.

If you can't buy one of my watches, buy one from Bernhardt, Lum-Tec, or any of those other guys, all of whom are just as solid dudes as my friends (and Hong Kong wolf-pack members) Sujain (Melbourne), Chip (Aevig), Jason (Halios), and HK Ed.

You may have heard my brands got to partner with Watch Gang this past summer. Say what you like about "watch-o-the-month" clubs, they bought up a bunch of my inventory, and introduced NTH and Lew & Huey to a few hundred new people, if not a few thousand, many of whom are now also fans. The company treated me fairly, paid me promptly, and has been forgiving about a few little problems we've had along the way. I really can't complain about them, at all.

You may have heard there's a new micro-brands store which opened up in Singapore, Watch Wonderland. I was honored that NTH and Lew & Huey were among the first brands they approached about being featured there. If you're in Singapore, please stop by and check them out. Even better - buy a watch while you're there, preferably one of mine.

You're no doubt aware that Watch Gauge started this year, and has featured NTH prominently. I'm ecstatic to be working with John Keil and his company, and to have them as partners for the future.

If you'd asked me 6 months ago, I'd have told you the year was going terribly. I distinctly remember being able to rattle off a list with at least half a dozen big problems I'd been dealing with, going all the way back to the theft of inventory last fall. It seems like all the great things happened in the second half of the year, and as such, I'm having a hard time remembering more than 2 or 3 things from that list. All's well that ends well, I guess, and all that.

This past September wast the 5 year anniversary of losing my job, and my watch stopping later that week, which led me to doing this. This coming April will be the 5 year anniversary of our first sale. I'm not sure if it seems like it's been a very long time or no time at all, but it has been interesting time, either way.

None of it would have been possible without people actually buying what I'm selling, that wouldn't happen if there wasn't some level of interest in it, and this forum has been ground-zero, where that support for what I've been doing began, and where it's always been strongest.

I am truly humbled and grateful for it, and all of you (well, most of you), being a part of it, and helping to keep me interested, and stay motivated.

I wish you all the best for the holidays, and the coming year.

Be well,
Chris


----------



## RLextherobot (Jan 10, 2017)

docvail said:


> Guys (and any strange women who might be lurking in this thread), it's that time of year, time for my annual introspective / retrospective wrap up. It's been both a strange and amazing year (plus a few months), to say the least.
> 
> Many of you know about the theft of inventory from our old warehouse, something which first became apparent in the fall of 2016, when we were shipping out the first batch of NTH Subs. That's not the sort of problem (more than 100 pieces stolen) that gets sorted out very quickly, and so that was one of the big challenges I was dealing with when this year started.
> 
> ...


Mazel tov Doc. You're one of the reasons I keep coming back to this forum and I'm happy to hear things are looking up for 2018. I'll be keeping a very close eye on your upcoming releases 

Sent from my SM-T817W using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Happy New Year Chris. Looking forward to seeing more new watches soon.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

*A toast to Chris Vail, L'Chaim *


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


>


Y'all got anymore of that Janis?


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> I wish you all the best for the holidays, and the coming year.
> 
> ...


And a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too. ;-)


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

yes....


Merry Christmas to all....


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

My brother officially became an NTH owner yesterday, on his 50th b-day. He owns 2 or 3 Aragons because of me giving him one. Now, if only the dollar (Canadian) gets better, and my 'hey, check out this watch' works, we'll have another convert. 
( I consider myself good for the economy. )









Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I love the Azores...great design, great looking watch. Excellent choice.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Merry Christmas, all, and have a wonderful time with your families.

Ric


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)




----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Ratfacedgit said:


> View attachment 12755719


stop teasing us.....


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

So as I've alluded to for a while in this thread, I've been lusting after a modern blue Nacken since I first saw it. When I first heard of it, there were 3 in stock at Watch Gauge, so I had kept my eye on those figuring I'd pick one up if they started to move. One night I go to bed, the next morning all three are gone! I was so mad at myself! So I told myself that if they ever came back in stock, I'd buy one right up.

Then came the Devil Ray and I jumped on the pre-order.

Then all of a sudden three more popped on Watch Gauge. But I had just bought the Devil Ray, and it was getting close to Christmas, and I just couldn't justify two $600 watch purchase for myself back to back within a month or two of Christmas. So I went to my wife and told her, I want this watch for Christmas, but you have to act fast because these are the last three in the whole world (this was before the new pre-order).

My wife is lazy about these things, so I got on her a few times. Then, I checked TGV's podcast one night and saw he was doing an interview with the guy from Watch Gauge, and sure enough they're profiling the Nacken. When she comes up to bed I show her the podcast and tell her: you have to get this watch NOW if you're going to do it, because they're going to be out of stock again by tomorrow.

What I didn't know is that just before she came up, she had been on the phone with the Watch Gauge guy to order the very last Nacken in the entire world!

And so, on Christmas, guess what I got? Hell yeah! Absolutely beautiful watch, a real stunner and, frankly, better looking in person than even in pictures. Just a perfect watch. I don't have the tools to size the bracelet so I put it on the vanilla strap for now. Stoked!!11!!

Thanks Doc, and Watch Gauge!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Merry Christmas people!









New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Azores today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Review of the DevilRay up at WWR: https://wristwatchreview.com/the-devils-in-the-details-nth-devil-ray/


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Review of the DevilRay up at WWR: https://wristwatchreview.com/the-devils-in-the-details-nth-devil-ray/


So does that mean he liked it?

Ric


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> So does that mean he liked it?
> 
> Ric


I believe he did, but he's a member of this forum, and stops into this thread every so often, so if he didn't, he may correct the record.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

No new watches, but I did get a new lens for my camera.
It is a manual lens, but I think this picture came out fine!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Another blog post, about accuracy, not from WWR, but from everyone's favorite crank:

Watch-geeks and the Zen of Accuracy - Janis Trading Company


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

Top shot ! 
I really love the air/room in this photo, and great tones as well . 
My congratulations on the lens - which is it?

And Scorpene is my favorite one after after vintage black nacken. A model of its own I would say. They were sold out when I pre ordered, so no way to choose from


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

s.z said:


> Top shot !
> I really love the air/room in this photo, and great tones as well .
> My congratulations on the lens - which is it?
> 
> And Scorpene is my favorite one after after vintage black nacken. A model of its own I would say. They were sold out when I pre ordered, so no way to choose from


Thanks mate! 
It is a 7artisans 25mm f/1.8.
It was my first time using a manual lens and it was fun!


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Ric Capucho said:


> So does that mean he liked it?
> 
> Ric


I dunno, the chapter ring was described as "slops".



ConfusedOne said:


> Thanks mate!
> It is a 7artisans 25mm f/1.8.
> It was my first time using a manual lens and it was fun!


Welcome to the manual lens fun. Next thing you know you'll be scouring ebay for some nice vintage Minoltas.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

OK, time for a round up.
I was very excited when the new batch of Näckens was announced.
The excitement cooled down after a talk with wifey. Selling house, cars or even kids to fund a watch was simply out of the question.
I thought that was the end of it, but Christmas was less devastating to my bank account than expected. And not only that, Watch gauge still had Modern blue Näckens for sale when I realized I actually could afford one!

There will probably be other temptations down the road, but right now I feel this is the most complete diver available for me. 
And, after selling off a few that now become redundant, the math doesn't look to bad 

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



aicolainen said:


> OK, time for a round up.
> I was very excited when the new batch of Näckens was announced.
> The excitement cooled down after a talk with wifey. Selling house, cars or even kids to fund a watch was simply out of the question.
> I thought that was the end of it, but Christmas was less devastating to my bank account than expected. And not only that, Watch gauge still had Modern blue Näckens for sale when I realized I actually could afford one!
> ...


You had me at selling kids.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

I finally got my first Doc watch! An Amphion Vintage and I absolutely love it! I know these have been out for a bit, but being new to me, heres my take. The colors and textures with their vintage vibe is just so appealing to me. It happens to be a size that is right in my sweet spot (40mm on a 7.5") The lack of crown guards differentiates it from any other mil sub I have had, and it works, like a 5510 married a 5517 and had a really good looking kid! Love the case, the dimensions, the finish is great in this range, the bezel was a great choice, more vintage than a modern sub bezel. Definitely a keeper. I just got a new Oris 65, the 40mm, that I should be rocking out, but I can't take this thing off!


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Can't say enough good things. Saving now for some rumored Näcken....


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

skunkworks said:


> I finally got my first Doc watch! An Amphion Vintage and I absolutely love it! I know these have been out for a bit, but being new to me, heres my take. The colors and textures with their vintage vibe is just so appealing to me. It happens to be a size that is right in my sweet spot (40mm on a 7.5") The lack of crown guards differentiates it from any other mil sub I have had, and it works, like a 5510 married a 5517 and had a really good looking kid! Love the case, the dimensions, the finish is great in this range, the bezel was a great choice, more vintage than a modern sub bezel. Definitely a keeper. I just got a new Oris 65, the 40mm, that I should be rocking out, but I can't take this thing off!


You should post a head-to-head comparison thread between the amphion and the oris 65. I bet the results would be interesting.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Hey Doc! Look at the Amphion Vintage, I just realized that in the original renders, all vintage models come with vintage lume. I'm just a bit curious, why do you change that in production model, with Amphion still keeps the vintage lume, but not on Nacken black and blue vintage? Thank you very much and have a nice holiday!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Forever8895 said:


> Hey Doc! Look at the Amphion Vintage, I just realized that in the original renders, all vintage models come with vintage lume. I'm just a bit curious, why do you change that in production model, with Amphion still keeps the vintage lume, but not on Nacken black and blue vintage? Thank you very much and have a nice holiday!


We didn't change it. The Nacken Vintage Blue and Vintage Black have "natural" lume, which has a slightly patina'd color.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

So my family and I are/have been spending Christmas at my brother-in-laws. This is a different one and not the owner of the super gaudy gold watch from earlier.

He was replacing the battery in one of his watches and I told him he needed a real watch. He told me that the other bro-in-law (gaudy) had already tried to give him a watch but that it was too big. I went straight way to my travel roll and had him try on my Santa Cruz as well as my Melbourne Watch Co. Portsea. He likes both of those a lot.

So now I've got to save up and buy him his first "real watch" and I've got my eye on one of the NTH subs. I think this would be the perfect entry into the world of WISdom.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> So my family and I are/have been spending Christmas at my brother-in-laws. This is a different one and not the owner of the super gaudy gold watch from earlier.
> 
> He was replacing the battery in one of his watches and I told him he needed a real watch. He told me that the other bro-in-law (gaudy) had already tried to give him a watch but that it was too big. I went straight way to my travel roll and had him try on my Santa Cruz as well as my Melbourne Watch Co. Portsea. He likes both of those a lot.
> 
> ...


Better hurry if you want one of the Blue Nacken Moderns from Watch Gauge. I talked to John earlier today, and I think he told me he was down to maybe 20 pieces left available.

He's sold out of the Nacken Modern Black entirely. I asked the factory to make me 10 pieces more, 5 with date, 5 without. When they're gone, I think that'll be it for both colors of the Nacken Modern. I don't see much point in making more of them, when I've got 6 or 8 more versions planned.

If you plan to wait for the next batch of subs, understand I doubt I'll start pre-orders on them before April, and we won't have that next batch ready for delivery until next Summer.

Then again, there's always Watch Recon.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

I need to show him some options and determine what it is he likes and what he doesn't like and then choose a model. I don't think either of us would have a problem waiting for the next batch. I'm very excited and interested in what is coming!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

Doc, I made the call and have had to pass on this round of nacken's, thought you might like to see what I got instead, birth year watch


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

KiwiWomble said:


> Doc, I made the call and have had to pass on this round of nacken's, thought you might like to see what I got instead, birth year watch


Awesome. May the quartz be with you!


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

Speaking of Nacken's can Doc or someone post a pic of the New Nacken's with date at 6? I saw a picture of it once and now can't find it anywhere.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Speaking of Nacken's can Doc or someone post a pic of the New Nacken's with date at 6? I saw a picture of it once and now can't find it anywhere.


I asked Aaron to update the renders to try to get the colors and date window treatment closer to reality.

Here you go:


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

docvail said:


> Here you go:
> 
> View attachment 12764841


Until 3:14 PM, I was going to buy the Sante Fe on WG with my next expense check. Then I saw this. :-s


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Wow those are gorgeous, can't wait for April, consider me already in line.


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

They won't be delivered until April??


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> They won't be delivered until April??


That is correct.

We've got them in production now.

All the common components are made (cases, bracelets, crystals, crowns, movements, etc), but we had to finalize the details which make them different (hands, dials, bezels), make all those, and do assembly.

With a month-long work stoppage for Chinese New Year between mid-January and mid-February, what would ordinarily be a 90-day (or less) production/assembly time became about a 120-day production time. Add some time for QC and shipping...mid- to late April.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ryan92084 said:


> I dunno, the chapter ring was described as "slops".
> 
> Welcome to the manual lens fun. Next thing you know you'll be scouring ebay for some nice vintage Minoltas.


Slopes! It slopes!

And yes. I think he liked it. (Yes, I did. Thanks for reading!)

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Ric Capucho said:


> So does that mean he liked it?
> 
> Ric


Yes! I liked it!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## whoa (May 5, 2013)

docvail said:


> That is correct.
> 
> We've got them in production now.
> 
> ...


Date window placement looks great! But what else is different! Couldn't find it with a quick look at your hp!

Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



whoa said:


> Date window placement looks great! But what else is different! Couldn't find it with a quick look at your hp!
> 
> Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk


There isn't anything different other than the date window. I just asked Aaron to make it a more realistic picture.

It's the same thing I ask Rusty to do, except Aaron actually did it.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## whoa (May 5, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> There isn't anything different other than the date window. I just asked Aaron to make it a more realistic picture.
> 
> It's the same thing I ask Rusty to do, except Aaron actually did it.
> 
> New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


Ahh Roger that! It sure looks good so are you gonna ask Rusty to make one as well? To see who's better with realism?? A little competition never hurt anyone in being creative 

Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> There isn't anything different other than the date window. I just asked Aaron to make it a more realistic picture.
> 
> It's the same thing I ask Rusty to do, except Aaron actually did it.
> 
> New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


Daf---?!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

Out of curiosity was there any consideration to a higher dome? Like what you might find on a vostok?


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Shockwave said:


> Out of curiosity was there any consideration to a higher dome? Like what you might find on a vostok?


A cool idea, but it would make the watch thicker.
Having a thin 11.5mm diver makes it unique.


----------



## Stenshuvud (Nov 4, 2013)

It is never to late to go with _either_ 300m or 1k feetsies (or 30 atm or hPa or whatever)


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Stenshuvud said:


> It is never to late to go with _either_ 300m or 1k feetsies (or 30 atm or hPa or whatever)


You win the all-time lowest post/day award. Respect.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

And not only that, but to choose to stick his head up like that once-in-a-hundred-year-desert-bloom to offer "feetsies"! Priceless!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Out of curiosity was there any consideration to a higher dome? Like what you might find on a vostok?


None.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

It would be cool to see a bronze nth sub in 2018. With sandpaper brown or black dial, snowflake hands and a cool vintage leather strap... pretty much same as vintage nackens just bronze  just saying


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> It would be cool to see a bronze nth sub in 2018. With sandpaper brown or black dial, snowflake hands and a cool vintage leather strap... pretty much same as vintage nackens just bronze  just saying


I've never been interested enough in bronze to think about it very much. I spent some time thinking it was a fad that would pass, but clearly, it's not. Regardless, I've never been a fan.

As for the NTH Subs, we'll likely make another 175-180 pieces in 2018 (after the 130 currently being assembled to fulfill the Watch Gauge pre-order). After that, I think we'll be done, at least until 2019 or later. All those cases are already made, in stainless steel, so there won't be a bronze Sub in 2018, if ever.

Aside from the Subs, I've got another model in development (steel case, not bronze), and some other business plans for this year.

If I were to make a bronze version of anything, it would require different tooling, which means a different MOQ. I'd have to make at least 300, just in bronze. I'm just not into it, until I have an idea for something to do in bronze, specifically.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I've never been interested enough in bronze to think about it very much. I spent some time thinking it was a fad that would pass, but clearly, it's not. Regardless, I've never been a fan.
> 
> As for the NTH Subs, we'll likely make another 175-180 pieces in 2018 (after the 130 currently being assembled to fulfill the Watch Gauge pre-order). After that, I think we'll be done, at least until 2019 or later. All those cases are already made, in stainless steel, so there won't be a bronze Sub in 2018, if ever.
> 
> ...


FTFY


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I've got another model in development (steel case, not bronze),


Aside from the Devil Ray do you mean?

I swear you mentioned something a while back about a smaller 'everyday' watch?
I might have imagined that though.

I'm hoping to see a 38mm (ish) everyday 'tool' watch. With crown guards, decent water resistance, screw down crown, date and bracelet.

Please?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Keefy said:


> Aside from the Devil Ray do you mean?
> 
> I swear you mentioned something a while back about a smaller 'everyday' watch?
> I might have imagined that though.
> ...


Yes, aside from the DevilRay, which is currently in production (being made). Any/all other models I'm working on but not yet produced would be "in development".

It won't be 38mm, won't have crown guards, nor will it have a screw down crown. It will have an optional date, and a bracelet.

Stay tuned.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Yes, aside from the DevilRay, which is currently in production (being made). Any/all other models I'm working on but not yet produced would be "in development".
> 
> It won't be 38mm, won't have crown guards, nor will it have a screw down crown. It will have an optional date, and a bracelet.
> 
> Stay tuned.


*Happy New Year! *


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

300 in bronze and King Leonidas of Sparta will thank you and give you a good review in a Watch magazine of your choice.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I've never been interested enough in bronze to think about it very much. I spent some time thinking it was a fad that would pass, but clearly, it's not. Regardless, I've never been a fan.


I agree with you but if I were you and considering it, I'd just declare Johnny Lee the winner of the Bronze War and stay with stainless. The Cobra is the only one I ever considered.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



tslewisz said:


> I agree with you but if I were you and considering it, I'd just declare Johnny Lee the winner of the Bronze War and stay with stainless. The Cobra is the only one I ever considered.


I'm not the judge of who wins the bronze war. I'd say Elshan from Zelos/Ventus is a strong contender, along with Helson and a few others.

I don't know if this makes any sense, but here goes - I've always been more interested in inventing my own games than in playing other people's games. Figuring out how to sell a bronze watch is less interesting to me than figuring out how to do something no one else is doing or has done before.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> some other business plans for this year.


The Adamantium case you were talking about a few weeks ago?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



pb9610 said:


> The Adamantium case you were talking about a few weeks ago?


I've got several "items on my agenda", beyond just designing new models.

I'd like to make a case using a new metal, one not yet used in the industry (as far as I'm aware). I'm also doing some explorations into what it would take to produce more components, to possibly include movements, in the USA. And there's a completely new business entity I'll possibly form, to provide some services to both the market and other businesses like mine.

It's a lot of stuff, and likely some won't see fruition in 2018. But for now, with what's on my plate, I've only got one new model in development.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'm not the judge of who wins the bronze war. I'd say Elshan from Zelos/Ventus is a strong contender, along with Helson and a few others.


Halios?!

Just sayin', just sayin'.

"new metal" sounds good. Hope it doesn't result in "nu metal" 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Halios?!
> 
> Just sayin', just sayin'.
> 
> ...


How many bronze models had Halios made? I can only think of one.

One bronze watch doesn't win the bronze war, I wouldn't think, but like I said, I'm not the judge.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> How many bronze models had Halios made? I can only think of one.
> 
> One bronze watch doesn't win the bronze war, I wouldn't think, but like I said, I'm not the judge.
> 
> New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


We didn't set the rules... but I am sure, there could be an argument if one contribution to a contest wouldn't be enough to win it. But I am not arguing at all.

On the other hand: If one wanted to be nitpicky, there are a couple of models of the tropik bronze. You are right. It is one case design. But still.

And plus: he was the first one To use another alloy, even prior to Tudor.

In my book this qualifies.

Just wanted to hear a bit more of that new metal you were talking about. But I am sure you won't talk about it 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Happy new year, btw


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'm also doing some explorations into what it would take to produce more components, to possibly include movements, in the USA.


I can't find a gif or emoji to convey the shock/confusion/surprise/excitement I felt after reading this sentence. I think you've said "components" previously, but I don't remember you mentioning full movements.

Launching PA watchmaking back to it's rightful place? Count me in!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> We didn't set the rules... but I am sure, there could be an argument if one contribution to a contest wouldn't be enough to win it. But I am not arguing at all.
> 
> On the other hand: If one wanted to be nitpicky, there are a couple of models of the tropik bronze. You are right. It is one case design. But still.
> 
> ...


Happy New Year to you as well, my friend.

I didn't realize the Tropik bronze was a different alloy, although I was loosely aware that there are at least two, possibly more than two types of bronze. Since I wasn't interested in making anything with any type of bronze, I never bothered to learn what differentiates them, unlike the various grades of steel and other materials, into which I've done quite a bit of research...

I've been working on the new metal thing for years, dating all the way back to the Acionna, believe it or not. I recently found a potential supplier that can make cases out of the metal I want to use.

My basic take on materials is that there are pros and cons to all of them, but rather than focus on comparing the pros and cons of each, the focus should be on matching the pros to the desired application.

A watch is a watch, not a submarine, an airplane, a scalpel or a tactical knife, so I don't see why "submarine steel", "aircraft grade steel", "surgical grade steel" or "high-carbon steel" (i.e. "tactical knife steel") would be preferable to some other steel, if some other steel would actually be better suited to making watches out of it.

It seems silly to be impressed by "submarine steel" used for a watch. I'd rather have "wristwatch steel", if such a thing exists, and it's better for the application.

Each of those different types of steels (and for that matter, every material, including ceramic, sapphire, carbon, titanium, tungsten, bronze, brass, etc) has certain qualities which led to it being used for those and other products. The people who made the products knew enough to find the right material for the application.

I don't care that my watch is made of "surgical grade steel" or "submarine steel" if the material is less than ideally-suited to the specific application - the particular application of making a watch with that material.

Because of what concerns us with watches - corrosion from exposure to the elements, magnetization of the movements, and damage due to impact - the ideal metal would be harder and a better magnetic shield than 316L stainless, but without reduced corrosion resistance or ductility (i.e., toughness, which is essentially the opposite of hardness in metals). Ideally, it would be better all around - both harder AND tougher, more corrosion resistant, and a better magnetic shield.

In my view, the new metal I want to use would be superior - for the specific application of watches - than all current alternatives, but early indications are that it's going to be somewhat more difficult/expensive to work with, so my initial goal is to just make the case out of it, before we try to tackle the challenge of getting bracelets and claps made out of it.

When you look at all the alternative metals being used, most are just used in the case, which will come on a strap, not a bracelet, since the bracelet and buckle/clasp vendors are all still using 316L steel, mostly.

The exceptions would be Rolex, Sinn and Damasko, all of whom are using other metals for their bracelets, but all of whom have much greater resources than I do, so this is all still very early-stage.



pb9610 said:


> I can't find a gif or emoji to convey the shock/confusion/surprise/excitement I felt after reading this sentence. I think you've said "components" previously, but I don't remember you mentioning full movements.
> 
> Launching PA watchmaking back to it's rightful place? Count me in!


Believe it or not, the challenge isn't quite what I think most people think it is. Most of the parts of a watch are pretty basic. They're made of metal, which is just a raw material. Ditto sapphire, etc. The exception is really the hairspring, and the jewels.

From what I understand, the jewels are all grown, not mined, and there are multiple existing suppliers, as well as more potential suppliers, so getting them shouldn't be a big hurdle to overcome.

The bigger challenge is that most of the hairsprings come from the Swiss company Nivarox (which makes the springs from a material with the same name, nivarox), and unless we can get what we need from some other source, they're pretty much "the only game in town", with a virtual, if not actual monopoly on the product.

But...last year one of my watchmakers told me about a guy in the USA making hairsprings - good ones - out of silicon. Silicon hairsprings aren't exactly a ready-for-primetime-gonna-shock-the-world innovation.

The idea has been around a while, but there just hasn't been enough demand for them to drive the sort of volume which would be needed to standardize production and bring costs down. Right now, they're essentially a bespoke solution, an expensive, almost one-off component made in small batches.

However, if, let's say, we had an immediate demand for 3,000-10,000 units per year, that might be a good start to ramping up production and bringing the unit costs down.

The real "problem" isn't that any of the materials or components needed are only available in other parts of the world, it's that no one in this part of the world has made them for decades. So we'd effectively need to re-train the vendors to make what we need, according to our specs and standards, and to do that, we need volume, driven by demand, and the money to make it all happen.

Sapphire isn't a rare earth material. We can get sapphire crystals made by domestic suppliers, I'm sure of it. Maybe we go to an industrial glass supplier, like Owens Corning, or companies currently making lenses, or scopes, or scope components. You get the idea.

Ditto for the metal parts. We find the vendors with the capabilities to produce the parts, then we tell them what we need. It might take a few iterations before we see consistent quality in everything from a bracelet link to a clasp to a case or crown to a gear in the movement, but I doubt it would take MORE than a few iterations, which is good enough to justify the up front expense and investment of time and energy.

Putting all the movement parts together is a job for a watchmaker. In case you haven't heard, they're in short supply these days. I know a guy who's working to change that. What's better, he knows where to source a lot of the other stuff we'll need, as well as the necessary details, like specs and standards.

If he can handle the supply side, by lining up the vendors and the manpower - and I think he can - I know I can handle the demand side, and raise the capital we'll need to deliver.

Initial volume will be low, maybe a few thousand units per year to start, and prices a bit higher than what we commonly think of as "affordable", but not outrageously high. I figure a fully-assembled piece might be $1200-$2000, for a truly "Made in America" watch - all the parts, made in America, and assembled in America. If NTH is a higher-volume/lower cost alternative to MKII (which is what it is), think of this as the higher-volume/lower cost alternative to RGM and Weiss.

From there, we could hopefully raise more money, and ramp up production enough to bring the unit costs down. My ultimate goal is a range of watches - dress, tool, etc - with retail prices between $600 and $800, but not just from "my" brand, but rather by creating a USA-based OEM, for companies like mine, currently relying on OEMs in Europe or Asia. Imagine a BUNCH of microbrands doing what microbrands do now, but doing it all in the USA, and doing it better than it's currently being done.

That's the idea.

And it's not the only one I'm working on, so...I gotta lot o' work to do, and I need to get back to it.

PEACE!

I'm out.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My ultimate goal is a range of watches - dress, tool, etc - with retail prices between $600 and $800,


"He was looking for a place called Lee Ho Fook's..."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



pb9610 said:


> "He was looking for a place called Lee Ho Fook's..."


I know this is from "Werewolves of London", and I want to think it has something to do with the 2014 thread about our trip to Hong Kong ("Micros in Hong Kong"), but I'll be damned if the subtlety ain't too subtle for me in this case, and as such I'm baffled beyond knowing what this post means.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Thanks for the insights, doc. There, I stand corrected, having thought you wouldn't talk about it . 

As for the halios' bronze alloy, I might be corrected by someone who's more in the know than i am, it is an alloy of copper and aluminum - unlike the alloy of copper and ... is it silicium? CuSn? 

That CuAl alloy has a more gold-ish hue prior to patina development and the Patina is more "dirty" - it gets darker, like brass. The CuSn ( the "standard" alloy used in bronze watches to my knowledge) has a more reddish hue and gets green when exposed to salty and sulphuric agents. Both seem to be very durable. So it's more or less a matter of color. But still, Jason was first with it. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. 

As for your plans, I really don't see a bronze sub, somehow it's not your style. Although Tudor made something like it  

But I am looking forward to seeing what you have in your drawer for 2018! 

T


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I know this is from "Werewolves of London", and I want to think it has something to do with the 2014 thread about our trip to Hong Kong ("Micros in Hong Kong"), but I'll be damned if the subtlety ain't too subtle for me in this case, and as such I'm baffled beyond knowing what this post means.


Rearrange "Lee Ho Fook" where Ho is the first syllable...


----------



## stillonthebeach (Apr 11, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Sorry if this a stupid question Doc, but what is the advantage of a silicon hair spring rather than the metal they are now being being produced from ?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



stillonthebeach said:


> Sorry if this a stupid question Doc, but what is the advantage of a silicon hair spring rather than the metal they are now being being produced from ?


Availability, if nothing else.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm not aware of any functional advantages of silicon versus nivarox when it comes to hairsprings. 

I imagine silicon might have a slight advantage in being completely non magnetic (nivarox has only a slight amount of ferrous metal, and is virtually non-magnetic). Maybe it's even less susceptible to temperature changes (nivarox is engineered to be unaffected by temp changes). Maybe it would be superior in terms of service life or maintenance interval, I don't know. 

Going back to my earlier point about materials and applications, both materials would seem to be appropriate, but Nivarox has a monopoly on that metal, whereas no one has a monopoly on silicon. 


New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Thanks for the insights, doc. There, I stand corrected, having thought you wouldn't talk about it .
> 
> As for the halios' bronze alloy, I might be corrected by someone who's more in the know than i am, it is an alloy of copper and aluminum - unlike the alloy of copper and ... is it silicium? CuSn?
> 
> ...


SN is tin. From the Latin: Stannum Traditionally, bronze is an alloy of Copper and Tin.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Most (?) "bronze" watches tend to be (or are preferred to be?) CuSn8 bronze, the high tin variety, where tin is the main alloying agent added to copper. 

I believe factories specify "CuSn8" in order to differentiate and clarify that they're not using brass, which is copper and zinc. I don't know why brass is shunned in favor of bronze. Again, I never cared enough to do any research into the topic.

"Aluminum bronze" is basically what it sounds like, where aluminum is the main alloying agent added to bronze. And, again, don't care either way, because no variety of bronze (or brass) has ever interested me very much.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> <snip> ("Micros in Hong Kong") <snip>


I spent the better part of an hour and a half reading that entire thread last night. Oh man, that was a fantastic read! Did you guys ever have a follow-up trip?

That was seriously classic stuff...thanks for sharing it!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

DP.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

TP. Doh.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> bronze bronze bronze bronze bronze bronze bronze bronze bronze bronze bronze bronze
> 
> bronze bronze bronze bronze bronze
> 
> ...


Would it be possible to make Fluoride Bronze? Because that would actually be very healthy - whenever you get stressed, you could gnaw of the fluoride bronze watch case and improve your dental condition as well as relieve stress.

I tells ya doc, there's big bucks in the XYZ Bronze range.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Can't wait to see what's next!


----------



## Torre (Jun 3, 2011)

These are beautiful watches but my concern is with replacement parts.
What is the likelihood replacement crown, bezel, etc. can be purchased several years down the road?
Thanks,
Mark


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Toonces said:


> I spent the better part of an hour and a half reading that entire thread last night. Oh man, that was a fantastic read! Did you guys ever have a follow-up trip?
> 
> That was seriously classic stuff...thanks for sharing it!


Was there a follow up trip?

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/micros-hong-kong-two-fat-too-furious-3547778.html


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Would it be possible to make Fluoride Bronze? Because that would actually be very healthy - whenever you get stressed, you could gnaw of the fluoride bronze watch case and improve your dental condition as well as relieve stress.
> 
> I tells ya doc, there's big bucks in the XYZ Bronze range.


Sorry, sometimes I'm not certain if and when people are joking. This may be stupidly obvious one way or the other, but is fluoride bronze a thing?

If it is, hopefully you'll understand why I don't know the answer, and I'm not motivated enough to look into it, since, as I said, I'm not all that interested in making any sort of bronze watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Torre said:


> These are beautiful watches but my concern is with replacement parts.
> What is the likelihood replacement crown, bezel, etc. can be purchased several years down the road?
> Thanks,
> Mark


Good question.

What's the likelihood you can buy any of those parts, from any brand, several years down the road?

Do you know what every company's spare-parts availability protocols are before you buy, or do you just assume that some brands (the big/mainstream brands) are better in that regard than other brands (the smaller, unknown to the mainstream brands)?

I actually have looked into it, and found that, at least as far as the watchmakers I know are aware, there's no industry standard for spare parts availability.

Rolex apparently maintains a replacement parts catalog going back 45 years, which is amazing, but it seems that most companies, even the big, well-known companies do not have any formalized spares policy, and in most cases, you'd be lucky to get a non-generic replacement part 3 years after a purchase.

That's not an exaggeration. My watchmaker has told me about several specific instances involving his inability to get replacement parts for watches from major brands, only a few years after the watches were purchased. It seems like they only maintain replacement parts for as long as necessary to provide warranty support, after which, you're SOL.

My company has an indefinite parts availability - we get spare/replacement parts with each new model we produce, and will keep those parts for as long as they last, or until such time that they're clearly no longer needed. I've got three shelves in my office with nothing but spare parts.

I like to think that in that regard, we are better than typical within the industry, given that I have parts for models going back 4 years, and it isn't often I get asked for a part and I don't have it.

If you buy a Hamilton, let's say, and the crown, bezel, etc needs to be replaced, and you can't get the part, you're pretty much SOL, right? Does that stop you from buying a Hamilton?

I don't see how it should be a concern with a micro-brand, assuming the brand owner is smart enough to maintain some reasonable replacement parts inventory (not all of them do). But even if they don't, the odds of you needing a replacement part AND not being able to get it seem pretty remote.

What are the odds that you need a new crown? How would that happen? Worst case scenario, there are generic replacement crowns a watchmaker could use.

Bezels? Are we talking inserts, or the actual bezel assembly, including the underlying steel ring? If you need a new bezel assembly, odds are you foolishly tried to pry your bezel off the case using the wrong tool, and wrecked it in the process. I don't think it's fair to take the company to task if they don't have just that part available (which is to say, I don't, and I don't know of any others who do).

Aluminum inserts get dinged up and scratched. Some guys don't mind. They'd still be functional, even dinged up and scratched, so not really a 'necessary' replacement.

Still, for those who bought an Orthos, with an aluminum bezel insert, I more than likely have replacement inserts available. I've probably had to send out a half dozen replacement Orthos inserts, out of 650 Orthos produced (less than 1%, for those who don't like math).

The PVD/DLC-coated stainless steel bezel inserts we've been using on the Phantoms, Subs, and the upcoming DevilRay seem to hold up to most normal abuse pretty well. I don't foresee having to replace very many, but, still, I've got spares.

As of today, I can only think of one guy who showed me one of our steel inserts that was beat to hell, and in need of replacement. I think he said he dropped it out of his car, and it went skidding across the asphalt. It looked like an alligator gnawed on it.

My Scorpene fell off my wrist as I was leaving a restaurant, and went skidding across a paver-stone patio. I'll be damned if I could find so much as a scratch on it.

I had one guy send me a pic of a very faint scuff on his Sub, which he admitted was hard to see, and I think he said it was caused by being dropped on a marble floor or granite counter-top. As of this date, he hasn't gotten back to me about replacing it, and he contacted me over a year ago.

Ceramic and Sapphire inserts can shatter. Talk to the companies that use ceramic or sapphire for their inserts. I can't answer for them. I might use a ceramic insert on a future model. If I do, I'll make sure I've got spares.

Crystals? I have spares, but there are tons of generic replacement crystals available, and even some shops which will make a custom crystal, if need be. I've had to sell exactly 2 spare crystals, in over 3,000 watches sold.

Movements? They're all generic, unless you get something that's been so heavily customized that it becomes unique in some way (which we've yet to do), but even there, odds are a generic movement would still fit into the case, and be a workable solution.

Bracelets and clasps? The clasps are pretty generic. I've got spares, but if I ran out, the aftermarket has good alternatives. I usually have spare bracelets, though recently, it's not many, only because when I got a ton of spares on past models, we ended up not needing them.

Again, worst case scenario, there's the aftermarket, or straps. How did we get into a situation where you need a new bracelet? What did you do to the original one? Go easier on your watches, maybe.

I've had one, maybe two guys ask me to sell them a new case. I actually do have spare cases, though again, not many, and I don't sell them. We use them for warranty repairs, in the very rare instance we'd need to, and if we don't need them, we use them to assemble more watches.

I don't know any company that sells replacement cases, or why it would be necessary. How did the original case get wrecked? At that point, you'll probably have to buy a new watch, or live with whatever is wrong with the original case.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm being dismissive. It's one of those questions which seems to come up fairly frequently, and more often than not, seems to be an unfair ding against micros. It's unfair because it seems like micro-brands would actually have a better likelihood of providing a replacement part than the bigger brands which apparently don't give a $hlt.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ I've actually wondered about one aspect of that, specifically, the desire for "in-house" movements. In fact, a perfect example of what I'm referring to is Ginault. One of their selling points is that they use their own in-house movement for their watches. I would think that this is actually a detriment rather than an asset for a consumer. If my generic ETA or NH35 or whatever movement that everyone and their mom uses breaks, I would think that I could take it to a competent watch repair guy and he could fix it. But if Ginault's unique movement needs a fix, I'd have to send it to a repair guy familiar with it. How many of those can their be? And if Ginault goes TU in 5 years, where am I going to get that specialized movement fixed or serviced in a decade?

I'm not singling out Ginault as a company. I really love the look of their offerings. But I can't understand why an in house movement is something that a consumer would desire over a widely available movement.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

Toonces said:


> I'm not singling out Ginault as a company. I really love the look of their offerings. But I can't understand why an in house movement is something that a consumer would desire over a widely available movement.


The assumption, I believe, is that there would be a finer level of attention to detail if the company was putting their name on it. Advanced "craftsmanship" is the explanation you're looking for.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Thanks. I hadn't thought of it from that perspective, but it makes sense.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Toonces said:


> ^ I've actually wondered about one aspect of that, specifically, the desire for "in-house" movements. In fact, a perfect example of what I'm referring to is Ginault. One of their selling points is that they use their own in-house movement for their watches. I would think that this is actually a detriment rather than an asset for a consumer. If my generic ETA or NH35 or whatever movement that everyone and their mom uses breaks, I would think that I could take it to a competent watch repair guy and he could fix it. But if Ginault's unique movement needs a fix, I'd have to send it to a repair guy familiar with it. How many of those can their be? And if Ginault goes TU in 5 years, where am I going to get that specialized movement fixed or serviced in a decade?
> 
> I'm not singling out Ginault as a company. I really love the look of their offerings. But I can't understand why an in house movement is something that a consumer would desire over a widely available movement.


They may be "in house" movements but it's an ETA 2824-2 clone. Every watchmaker knows a 2824-2. I'll bet some, if not most, parts are interchangeable.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

Ratfacedgit said:


> They may be "in house" movements but it's an ETA 2824-2 clone. Every watchmaker knows a 2824-2. I'll bet some, if not most, parts are interchangeable.


Which is why doc's thoughts on a new venture are so interesting.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

^^

I agree. I have 2 NTH subs with the DR on order. I look forward to what 2018 and beyond brings.


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

Big thanks to Doc - I contacted him recently regarding an order (won't go into details here) and on two occasions he's gone above & beyond.

Anybody who moans about Doc's customer service... I'd suggest you re-evaluate your expectations and the manor in which you approach him. Play nice, he plays nice.

Cheers Doc |>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

There's "in house", and then there's IN HOUSE...

Any company that makes or uses a movement with an identical footprint to any other is essentially selling something with a drop in replacement alternative.

What I mean by "footprint" is, if the movement size, date window location, crown stem height, post height, hand sizes, and complications (if any) are the same, then one movement could be a drop in replacement for another, even if they're not exactly the same, otherwise.

An example would be the STP1-11, the ETA 2824-2, the Sellita SW-200, the Ginault whatever, and the Sea-Gull ST2130. They're not all the same, but each could be swapped in for any of the others, if need be.

The 9015 has an identical date window placement to the ETAs and their clones, and the same movement thickness as an ETA 2892/2893, but a different crown stem height, and a taller hands post, so swapping one for the other might only be possible with some post-production customization. You'd have to confirm the clearance between the hands post and the crystal, and do something inside the case to equalize their crown stem heights.

If you're using something like an in-house calibre from one of the German brands, or even one of then less common but available through wholesale movements, your odds of being able to buy a replacement, or a suitable alternative, will go down.

My repair parts suppliers stock ETA/Sellita and Seiko/Miyota movements, but I haven't seen Soprod/Eterna movements in their catalogs, nor can I get some of the lower-volume parts, like the part I need to convert a date movement to a no-date movement. They only sell the date version of that part. I doubt they'd have access to an in house Nomos/Stowa calibre.

Still, many, if not most watchmakers have the tools and skills necessary to fabricate parts when needed. The hope is you'd never need them to, and that seems more realistic when you're using more common, generic movements.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchuck said:


> Big thanks to Doc - I contacted him recently regarding an order (won't go into details here) and on two occasions he's gone above & beyond.
> 
> Anybody who moans about Doc's customer service... I'd suggest you re-evaluate your expectations and the manor in which you approach him. Play nice, he plays nice.
> 
> Cheers Doc |>


I still like "You wore it, so you own it" better as a slogan, than "Play nice, he plays nice."

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pb9610 said:


> Which is why doc's thoughts on a new venture are so interesting.


We're still early stages here, but...

My initial thought was to copy an off-patent movement, and just make it here, with an eye towards development of a unique calibre.

If we start off with something like a Unitas hand-wind movement, servicing is really a non-issue. That's sort of entry-level work for any watchmaker. The same is true if we made a 2824-2 clone.

If we made a unique movement, it wouldn't be until we could make them in volume, and unlike ETA, our plan would put an emphasis on wholesaling them, not restricting access.

We'd be looking for the calibre to be widely adopted by many brands, and we would foster the independent repair network of watchmakers, rather than try to squeeze them out of business, the way so many of the big luxury brands are doing.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

docvail said:


> We're still early stages here, but...
> 
> My initial thought was to copy an off-patent movement, and just make it here, .


Kind of figured this. Can't wait to see what comes of it


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Hey guys, quick question:
I got the Nacken modern for Xmas. I took the bracelet off and put the springbars from it into the rubber strap it came with. Now I can't get the spring bars out of the rubber strap.

I have a bunch of extra springbars, but they're thinner diameter than the originals and I'm worried the bracelet is going to rattle if I use them. What size springbars do I need to acquire? Any idea of where I can get them cheaply?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Hey guys, quick question:
> I got the Nacken modern for Xmas. I took the bracelet off and put the springbars from it into the rubber strap it came with. Now I can't get the spring bars out of the rubber strap.
> 
> I have a bunch of extra springbars, but they're thinner diameter than the originals and I'm worried the bracelet is going to rattle if I use them. What size springbars do I need to acquire? Any idea of where I can get them cheaply?


This is one of those types of questions I used to feel pressured to be able to answer.

I'm happy to report I no longer feel that pressure.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

Toonces said:


> Hey guys, quick question:
> I got the Nacken modern for Xmas. I took the bracelet off and put the springbars from it into the rubber strap it came with. Now I can't get the spring bars out of the rubber strap.
> 
> I have a bunch of extra springbars, but they're thinner diameter than the originals and I'm worried the bracelet is going to rattle if I use them. What size springbars do I need to acquire? Any idea of where I can get them cheaply?


You really can't push them out with a strap removal tool? Or toothpick?

Sent using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I can't. It's alright, I can't figure out how to get the bracelet link pins out either. I'll let Google help me sort it all out.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I can't. It's alright, I can't figure out how to get the bracelet link pins out either. I'll let Google help me sort it all out.


That's one I can help with.

They're screws, not pins, assuming you meant folded split pins. Don't try to force it. Find the side with the head, use a 1.2mm screwdriver. Lefty-loosey, righty-tighty.

And Robert is your father's brother.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Thank you. I got some jeweler's screwdrivers yesterday but the screw wouldn't come out. I wasn't sure if they were screws or pins since they wouldn't seem to unscrew out. I'll try again tonight.

I'm trying to learn how to do these things myself, but clearly there's a bit of a learning curve.

The drilled lugs are awesome. I don't know why more watches don't use them, it makes everything so much easier.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> We're still early stages here, but...
> 
> My initial thought was to copy an off-patent movement, and just make it here, with an eye towards development of a unique calibre.
> 
> ...


Bit of a tangent but since you brought it up... I was wondering what your thoughts* are on limited selection of microbrand hand winders? This seems especially true when skipping the ones that stuff a pocket watch movement in a 44mm case. Is it a suitable movement availability/price issue or more of a perceived lack of market?

I had gone looking for a new <40mm dressy handwinder but the picking were extremely slim. I've started looking vintage instead but that is a whole other kettle of fish.

*telling me to "stuff it" is a thought


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Bit of a tangent but since you brought it up... I was wondering what your thoughts* are on limited selection of microbrand hand winders? This seems especially true when skipping the ones that stuff a pocket watch movement in a 44mm case. Is it a suitable movement availability/price issue or more of a perceived lack of market?
> 
> I had gone looking for a new <40mm dressy handwinder but the picking were extremely slim. I've started looking vintage instead but that is a whole other kettle of fish.
> 
> *telling me to "stuff it" is a thought


I'm not sure what you're asking me.

The typical hand-winder movements, the Unitas movements, are essentially evolutions of old pocket-watch movements. They're bigger, hence they have bigger cases, generally.

You can sometimes find them in smaller cases, but generally you're going to get lower water resistance, which, speaking as a brand owner, raises concerns about all the online discussion about not being able to wash your hands without at least 100m WR, etc.

Either way, they're surprisingly expensive movements.

I think Chip was talking about using a Miyota hand-wind movement in the dressy Thor, the 8N33, and I think Gruppo Gamma also made a model using that movement, though it wasn't dressy. The thing that concerns me with those movements is that they're derived from the lower-beat, stuttering seconds-hand Miyota 8 series of movements, which many WIS seem to hold in contempt.

Did you look at the Vapaus Veli? Hand-wind, dressy, small, Swiss (clone of the ETA 2804-2) , not cheap (about $850), but....meets all your criteria - sold out.

Notwithstanding the fact that it's sold out, I'm skittish about venturing into the price ranges above $700, just as I don't want to sell watches under $300.

There just aren't a lot of great choices for hand-wind movements, in terms of size, cost and appeal. Most people would prefer an automatic, it seems. Handwinders seem like a narrow-niche sort of play.

It's not exactly "dressy", but take a look at the Hamilton Khaki Field Officer Mechanical, which also uses the ETA 2804-2, is under $400, and is just 38mm.

https://www.borsheims.com/Hamilton-...X4o13BwvYyHA15NLOit-yb10b7DrUzexoCxWsQAvD_BwE


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> I'm not sure what you're asking me.
> 
> The typical hand-winder movements, the Unitas movements, are essentially evolutions of old pocket-watch movements. They're bigger, hence they have bigger cases, generally.
> 
> ...


Sorry I wasn't clear, to rephrase "what in your opinion is the main reason for the for micros largely ignoring the hand wound market? Poor movement choice (if so is the concern price, suitability, availability, etc) or is the market just perceived to be too small/risky?"

You've sort of answered it anyway and it seems to be all of the above. I did come across the Vapaus and I am watching their facebook for what comes next. The Hamilton and Smiths prs-29 just don't tick the right boxes at this time. Stowa has a few options that I'm mulling over. Thanks for the potential lead on Aevig.

Previously I had the 2013 ST-5 project watch but it was lost/stolen in a fire and when I went looking for something to replace it I was just kind of surprised at the lack of choice. You bringing up potentially making a hand wound movement just made me think of asking why.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Thanks, I guess I wasn't clear rephrase "what in your opinion is the main reason for the for largely ignoring the hand wound market? Poor movement choice (if so is the concern price, suitability, availability, etc) or is the market just perceived to be too small/risky?"
> 
> You've sort of answered it anyway and it seems to be all of the above. I did come across the Vapaus and I am watching their facebook for what comes next. The Hamilton and Smiths prs-29 just don't tick the right boxes at this time. Stowa has a few options that I'm mulling over. Thanks for the potential lead on Aevig.
> 
> Previously I had the 2013 ST-5 project watch but it was lost/stolen in a fire and when I went looking for something to replace it I was just kind of surprised at the lack of choice. You bringing up potentially making a hand wound movement just made me think of it.


I think it is much of the above, vis-a-vis the movements.

As my own knowledge develops, I've come to appreciate the technical (for lack of coming up with a better word) advantages of automatics over hand-winders, in that beyond the convenience of not needing to hand-wind the watch (at least not all the time), the automatic winding keeping the watch nearer to full power helps with accuracy. Hand-winders start to seem like an overly nostalgic and pointless throwback, in that context.

Sort of along those lines, I think the hand-wind vs auto thing is somewhat like the date/no-date thing. Most people, even most watch geeks, would seem to have a natural preference for "more"/"newer", and as such it's not surprising that people prefer autos, and having the date, to hand-winders, and not having the date.

I'd forgotten about that ST-5 project. That project was just stellar in how the watches came out. I had one reserved, but canceled it when they gave us the opportunity, when there was some change to the design (or was it the price?), a change I don't even remember. I wasn't bothered by whatever the change was, I just realized I didn't need or really want a smaller, hand-wind dressy watch with a Chinese movement.

In retrospect, I wish I'd gotten it. They are beautiful watches, and I regret letting my experience with the Sea-gull ST19 chrono movement sour me on all Chinese mechanical movements for a time. From what I understand the ST-5 is a sweet little piece, for what it is.

I haven't kept up with where Chip is with the Thor, but I hope he makes it. His designs are always crisp, and he's got some good ideas for that one, it seems, including a linen dial, and vertical tritium tubes (though I think that idea may have been scrapped). Google image search - https://www.google.com/search?q=aev...UICigB&biw=1366&bih=629#imgrc=aUR5mgu0njyEVM:

Your mention of the PRS29 made me think of the PRS36. You should DEFINITELY consider that one, I think. It's a 37mm cushion case, which will wear a bit larger than a 37mm round case, though likely still small enough to be "dressy", and in my opinion, they're fooking gorgeous watches. Under $600? C'mon.

Smiths PRS-36 Timefactors

I have no knowledge about what makes the Peseux movement "special", but to whatever extent you'd geek out over an interesting movement, the way many watch geeks do, there you go.









I don't know if your interest in hand-winding movements is something against autos, but many people seem to associate them with being thinner. They are thinner, if you're comparing a hand-wind and auto version of the same movement, like the hand-wind ST1901 versus the auto version ST1940 chronos, but not all hand-winders are thinner than all automatics. The Miyota 9015 is remarkably thin, as is the ETA 2892, thinner than many hand-wind movements.

Final (hopefully) thoughts - His watches aren't cheap (almost $4k), but there's a young and not-yet-well-known watchmaker in Europe doing some amazing work with smaller hand-wind movements and 3D-printed cases, Michiel Holthinrichs. I don't know him well at all, but we've traded a few words on facebook, and he seems like a good fellow, more of a "quiet artisan" than "outgoing entrepreneur".

https://watch-insider.com/holthinrichs/hands-holthinrichs-ornament-1-delft-blue-limited-edition/

Watches

If you're in the market for a truly unique "grail" level watch, something in that price range, I think his work is very worthy of consideration. The designs are beautiful, and the craftsmanship appears excellent.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Nomos makes a honey of a 38mm.

I suspect handwinds are hard to find because they're hard to sell. Hard to resell, anyway, from my experience. Folks think they're cheap, apparently.

You wont find 649x in anything under 41, fwiw.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Thank you. I got some jeweler's screwdrivers yesterday but the screw wouldn't come out. I wasn't sure if they were screws or pins since they wouldn't seem to unscrew out. I'll try again tonight.
> 
> I'm trying to learn how to do these things myself, but clearly there's a bit of a learning curve.
> 
> The drilled lugs are awesome. I don't know why more watches don't use them, it makes everything so much easier.


The screws in the Subs bracelets do NOT have any thread-locker (loctite) on them. They should come out without too much trouble, although I have seen that the heads can be mauled if you're using the wrong size screwdriver on a screw that's in there tight.

Don't force it. Like we used to say in the Army, be smarter than the equipment you're working with. Use a bigger screw driver. Use a hairdryer to heat the link, or some WD-40 at the threads-end (the end opposite the head), or leave that link alone, and remove one of the others.

It's ironic to me that some people have trouble getting the screws out of one of our bracelets, considering how many of the screws on my personal pieces seem to come out spontaneously, all on their own. It seems like I'll find one trying to make a getaway at least once a month.

Everyone seems to like drilled lugs. We don't do them on some models because we can't in some cases, due to where the lug holes would appear on the outer surface of the case.

Take the Orthos, with it's "twisted" lugs. If the holes were drilled through, the outside of those holes would intersect with the junction of two separate surfaces. Instead of a hole with a "flat" circular opening, you'd get an odd tear-drop shaped hole, like what you see on pre-fabricated furniture, where hardware goes into wood at an angle. That would be fugly. And you can't just re-locate the holes, because they're usually located where they are in order to properly fit a strap or end-link, and have the right clearances. The holes on the DevilRay couldn't be drilled through, due to their placement.

Other times, we don't drill the lugs through because as convenient as it is, it's less aesthetically pleasing. We didn't even ask if the lugs could be drilled on the Tropics, because it seemed less dressy.

I think I'll try to make the lugs drilled through more often, if for no other reason than it helps ensure better alignment, which makes mounting a bracelet on the case easier. When the holes are drilled through, it's a single drill bit passing from one outer surface, through to the other. When they're not drilled through, the holes are drilled by two drills coming into the lugs at an oblique angle, and they're more likely to be out of alignment by just a hair.

We actually saw this being done during our factory tours back in 2014, and it made my eye twitch a little.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> raises concerns about all the online discussion about not being able to wash your hands without at least 100m WR, etc.


I don't go out into the rain with a watch unless it's a minimum of 300m WR.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Hey Doc, thank you again for the assist. Pretty stoked I was able to do this.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Hey Doc, thank you again for the assist. Pretty stoked I was able to do this.


Your work space looks like mine. Crowded, tools everywhere, but all easily ignored in the bright glow of victory.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> seems to be an unfair ding against micros. It's unfair because it seems like micro-brands would actually have a better likelihood of providing a replacement part than the bigger brands which apparently don't give a $hlt.


This. And thx once again for the elaborate answer.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> I think it is much of the above, vis-a-vis the movements.
> 
> As my own knowledge develops, I've come to appreciate the technical (for lack of coming up with a better word) advantages of automatics over hand-winders, in that beyond the convenience of not needing to hand-wind the watch (at least not all the time), the automatic winding keeping the watch nearer to full power helps with accuracy. Hand-winders start to seem like an overly nostalgic and pointless throwback, in that context.
> 
> ...


I will fully admit my preference for handwound in a dress watch is at least 90% an emotional one. As you said sometimes it helps the thickness but often not. Nothing against autos but for a piece I'd wear sparingly enough to not even warrant a winder the benefits don't kick in.

I really loved that blue ST-5 even though the L2L was really pushing the limits for me.

I have seen that image of the linen/blue thors before I just didn't know/forgot it was a planned handwound.

I had missed that Smiths I'll add it to the list.

Those Holthinrichs are interesting. Another maker to keep an eye on.

Anyway, I appreciate the chance to pick your brain a bit.


hwa said:


> Nomos makes a honey of a 38mm.
> 
> I suspect handwinds are hard to find because they're hard to sell. Hard to resell, anyway, from my experience. Folks think they're cheap, apparently.
> 
> ...


It has been a while since I've looked at the Nomos lineup but I see they are making the Ahoi in a smaller size and some more colors now. I've always been a fan of that line for some indescribable reason and is probably my only "grail".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Some of you may have read comments from me, to the effect that with our current vendors, we've reached the point where there isn't much, if anything, we can improve without increasing costs.

That's pretty true, but I still look for little ways to improve quality where we can, especially if the improvements are cost-effective.

One area I've been trying to improve is bracelet and clasp quality. I haven't gotten "a lot" of complaints, but there are a handful of things I've heard enough times to pay attention to them.

When I was at the Hong Kong show in 2016, one of my main agenda items was meeting with several potential new bracelet/clasp suppliers. I sat down and looked at samples from about a half dozen. Generally, only one or two seemed worth consideration, in terms of quality and cost, and I kept their catalogs handy for future reference.

Although I haven't directed my "factory" (meaning my primary vendor, who sources most, if not all the components we use) to start using a different vendor, I have been giving them the feedback I've been getting about the various issues reported - sharp edges/corners of the clasps and links being the most common one, but also the less specific/more vague comment that our clasps "just aren't that good" - a comment some have made about the Seiko-style double-locking clasps we've used from the Acionna through the NTH Subs, not so much about the expansion clasp on the NTH Tropics and the forthcoming DevilRay.

About a year ago (not long after I got back from the HK show), a friendly competitor asked me for help sourcing a clasp for an upcoming model of his. He really wanted something more sturdy and hefty than the clasps we were using, and sent me a pic of the StrapCode clasp he bought as a sample.

Because I don't know which vendor supplies my factory (trade secret), I recommended the company I thought was the best among those I met with in Hong Kong, who he ended up using, and earlier this week, I received a handful of samples I requested from that same vendor a few weeks before Christmas.

My main focus is/was on finding a better alternative to the Seiko-style clasp we've used on several models, but I also wanted to see how the quality of our expansion clasp stacked up with what this vendor had to offer.

I've always maintained that folding clasp is "good enough" - it works well, isn't overly expensive, and is nicely compact, but to be fair, it really isn't very "special", and I understand that on something like a $600 NTH Sub, it may be a bit of a "letdown" for some, given the overall quality of the rest of the watch.

For those who might be interested in getting a sense of how micro-brand owners assess potential new vendors and components, I shot a little video, to give you all a bit of a window into my world. Apologies in advance for the crappy video quality. I have a very specific set of skills, but clearly video ain't among them...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Nice work, Chris. In your inimical fashion, you gave us an 11:00 minute video to say: nothin' to see here. But, as with everything you do, getting there is at least half the fun! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Nice work, Chris. In your inimical fashion, you gave us an 11:00 minute video to say: nothin' to see here. But, as with everything you do, getting there is at least half the fun!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


One morning my friend/mentor Sgt Mack and I drove 17 miles out into the woods to report for work. We stopped in the chow hall for a quick bite, then formed up with the rest of the Ranger Battalion, at 0700hrs sharp, only to be released for the day and sent home.

Back in the car, driving home, I started to grumble, "This is stupid. If they're going to give us a day off, why didn't they tell us that yesterday, instead of making us get up at the a$$-crack of dawn, and driving all the way out to camp, just so they can release us?"

In his inimical fashion, Sgt Mack said, "Vail, some days it's just a long way to go for breakfast."

If I'd just told you guys I looked for better clasps and didn't find any. You wouldn't believe me, or you'd think I just didn't look hard enough, or I was being stubborn. Some smarta$$ would start showing me pictures of different clasps I could use, and I'd feel compelled to explain why I don't use them.

Then you, Gabe, or some other smarta$$ would start riding my a$$ about my "walls of text", and I'd pray to God I could perfect my "kill people with my mind power", just so I could make an example out of a few people.

What I do ain't glamorous. It's 60% "welp, that was a complete waste of time", 30% "oh you gotta be $hltting me", and 10% "it's about f**king time something cool happened". It's all held together with some online jaw-jacking and punctuated with the bi-annual trip to Hong Kong.

If you want better content, subscribe to Netflix. I'm giving you free entertainment here, and you get what you pay for.


----------



## huwp (Nov 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> The screws in the Subs bracelets do NOT have any thread-locker (loctite) on them. They should come out without too much trouble, although I have seen that the heads can be mauled if you're using the wrong size screwdriver on a screw that's in there tight.
> 
> Don't force it. Like we used to say in the Army, be smarter than the equipment you're working with. Use a bigger screw driver. Use a hairdryer to heat the link, or some WD-40 at the threads-end (the end opposite the head), or leave that link alone, and remove one of the others.
> 
> It's ironic to me that some people have trouble getting the screws out of one of our bracelets, considering how many of the screws on my personal pieces seem to come out spontaneously, all on their own. It seems like I'll find one trying to make a getaway at least once a month.


The 'blades' (for want of the correct word) on my jewellers screwdrivers were too fat to fit in the slot when I first tried to resize the bracelet on my sub. i.e. too fat across the short dimension rather than too wide along the longer dimension. Took me a while to understand what was happening. I had to file down the tip to a shiv to get them to fit, after which it was easy.


----------



## sideways2 (Dec 1, 2016)

> What I do ain't glamorous. It's 60% "welp, that was a complete waste of time", 30% "oh you gotta be $hltting me", and 10% "it's about f**king time something cool happened". ​


Anybody in the tech industry knows this statement to be so true LOL!!



> If you want better content, subscribe to Netflix. I'm giving you free entertainment here, and you get what you pay for.​


Doc...you're better than Netflix


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

huwp said:


> The 'blades' (for want of the correct word) on my jewellers screwdrivers were too fat to fit in the slot when I first tried to resize the bracelet on my sub. i.e. too fat across the short dimension rather than too wide along the longer dimension. Took me a while to understand what was happening. I had to file down the tip to a shiv to get them to fit, after which it was easy.


For the bracelet screws on the subs, I had best results when using a small Bergeon springbar tool - the two prongs of the "fork" were just wide and thin enough to fit in the screw slot and provide torque.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

[/QUOTE]If you want better content, subscribe to Netflix. I'm giving you free entertainment here, and you get what you pay for.[/QUOTE]

Doc Vail, I for one appreciate the attention to detail which you are allowing us to see on your journey as a microbrand. It's a refreshing alternative to the mega corps making their decisions based on 3rd party marketing executives and their consumer surveys sitting in their posh boardrooms wondering where they will take their next vacation to.

I'm certain that many of the other micros are quietly stressing over similar issues as the success of the next batch on which you hope to pay bills with could literally be decided by the poor quality clasp and us 'consumers' spreading round bad vibes on our dissatisfaction with the cheap products that that Vail guy now shoves down our throats.

I also appreciated,more than you know, the behind the scenes look into your development of the Devil Ray which you provided in great detail. So when my watch arrives I'll have a greater appreciation of the details because of the story that went along with them.

Yes you can buy a watch purely on its visual presentation without any idea of the struggle to get it produced, as with most other micro and mega brands, but that's what makes the NTH and L&H pieces so much more appealing.

So I can forgive the poor quality video in exchange for the wisdom and knowledge gained from it.

Your still going pretty far for breakfast and that my friend speaks volumes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

As someone who has very little experience with bracelets outside of questionable fashion brands (mainly the wife's Michael Kors) I enjoyed the video purely form an informational point of view. I'd have to double check but I'm pretty sure MK managed a deployment style bracelet clasp with much less play than your sample so they are out there somewhere.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Patience is a virtue......

due to a turgid compound of unavoidable circumstances, I missed this Sub the first time round, but, with the mail this morning:

















And the lume is Phaser on full stun:









Perfect dimensions, superbly styled, designed & crafted and fits like no other diver that I have ever had; Eli, I can't thank you enough for letting this gem go, I am absolutely delighted. Also, thanks to Doc for bringing such wonderful creations to us in the first place.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Doc, just a feedback of my personal experience handling most of the clasps in the video based on my small 6.25" - 6.5" wrist size, I like the Seiko-style double-locking clasps, like the ones in your Subs. It's the best, imho.

However, it would better if it is a bit longer to cater for 4 - 5 micro adjustment holes, instead of current 3 holes. That's all.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

First podcasts, then Youtube fame and now Blancpain is homaging Sparky on their latest:


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Congrats Ragl! Nice watch.

Not to derail the thread, but the problem I had with the screws was entirely user error. The screwdrivers I bought have a bit that can be replaced from the case. I didn't realize this. So as I was turning the screwdriver, I was turning the case around the bit, not the screw. This seems obvious, but even with my reading glasses on I couldn't tell that was happening- I checked. Once Doc confirmed they were screws, I realized the problem must be with the tool so I took a closer look, saw a second screw that tightened up the bit, and once I did that it was mere minutes to size the bracelet. Kind of ridiculous, but there it is.

I don't know if the bracelet on the Nacken is high quality or not. I'm not sure what I'd even look for. FWIW, I like the look of my Chr.Ward Trident Pro bracelet more, but man alive, that watch and bracelet together feels like I'm wearing a brick on my wrist. I love the watch, but I definitely feel it when it's on. The Nacken with the bracelet is so light I forget I'm wearing it. Whether it's higher quality I don't know, but I'll say that it's more comfortable in my opinion.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I'll be curious to see how the Nacken feels compared to the Devil Ray.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Toonces said:


> Congrats Ragl! Nice watch.
> 
> Not to derail the thread, but the problem I had with the screws was entirely user error. The screwdrivers I bought have a bit that can be replaced from the case. I didn't realize this. So as I was turning the screwdriver, I was turning the case around the bit, not the screw. This seems obvious, but even with my reading glasses on I couldn't tell that was happening- I checked. Once Doc confirmed they were screws, I realized the problem must be with the tool so I took a closer look, saw a second screw that tightened up the bit, and once I did that it was mere minutes to size the bracelet. Kind of ridiculous, but there it is.
> 
> I don't know if the bracelet on the Nacken is high quality or not. I'm not sure what I'd even look for. FWIW, I like the look of my Chr.Ward Trident Pro bracelet more, but man alive, that watch and bracelet together feels like I'm wearing a brick on my wrist. I love the watch, but I definitely feel it when it's on. The Nacken with the bracelet is so light I forget I'm wearing it. Whether it's higher quality I don't know, but I'll say that it's more comfortable in my opinion.


Thanks Toonces, love this watch. As for the bracelets, I haven't tried the Amphion with it's supplied bracelet yet, although if my Commander and Antilles are anything to go by, once on the wrist, it should be the acme of comfort - they are not just high-quality eye-candy, they fit and feel just right - well, they do to me.

As for the link removal, I initially ran into that wall when the Antilles arrived, but finding and using the _correct _screwdriver solved the issue instantly; reference to a post by Doc in the middle of last year pointed me in the right direction; within this or other threads, Doc will have covered all aspects of living with his watches, a quick search should unearth any salient query.

Enjoy life with your Nacken Toonces.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> First podcasts, then Youtube fame and now Blancpain is homaging Sparky on their latest:
> View attachment 12779437


I'm just over here practicing my "kill people with my mind" power.

Andrew should be feeling a bit ill right now, at the very least...


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'm just over here practicing my "kill people with my mind" power.
> 
> Andrew should be feeling a bit ill right now, at the very least...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> As someone who has very little experience with bracelets outside of questionable fashion brands (mainly the wife's Michael Kors) I enjoyed the video purely form an informational point of view. I'd have to double check but I'm pretty sure MK managed a deployment style bracelet clasp with much less play than your sample so they are out there somewhere.


The supplier has those sorts of clasps, where the links attach directly to the clasp mechanism itself, like this:









There are a number of problems I have with this sort of clasp.

First - no micro-adjustment ability. This is the precise reason I wanted to see that one clasp I showed in the video. It has micro-adjustments on both sides.

Second - what if it breaks? If one of my folding clasps breaks, it's attached to the bracelet with spring-bars. I can just send the customer a replacement clasp. This type of clasp doesn't attach as easily, and I'd likely have to replace the entire bracelet (maybe). This is another reason I wanted to see the other style.

Third - comfort. The links of the bracelet sit on top of the clasp, as opposed to stopping at the clasp's ends, so the clasp and links are in-line, the way it all works with our current clasps. A lot of these are curved with a too-sharp radius:









That looks like it would be digging into your wrist on either side of your tendons. No bueno.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Doc, just a feedback of my personal experience handling most of the clasps in the video based on my small 6.25" - 6.5" wrist size, I like the Seiko-style double-locking clasps, like the ones in your Subs. It's the best, imho.
> 
> However, it would better if it is a bit longer to cater for 4 - 5 micro adjustment holes, instead of current 3 holes. That's all.


I've heard that complaint about them - not enough micro-adjustment holes.

It's hard for me to understand why anyone would need more than that, if more holes would equal the removal of an entire link (or half link, as the case may be). If we make the bracelet with enough removable links, you shouldn't need that many micro-adjustments to get a good fit.

I mean, they're _MICRO_-adjustments, emphasis on micro. They're meant to get a smaller increment of size change than you can get by only removing links. 4 or 5 of those holes will equal more than one link, depending on the length of the link.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I'll be curious to see how the Nacken feels compared to the Devil Ray.


My money's on smaller, thinner, and lighter.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> The supplier has those sorts of clasps, where the links attach directly to the clasp mechanism itself, like this:
> 
> View attachment 12779737
> 
> ...


Yeah - the lack of microadjustments on those is a problem (one of my aftermarket bracelets has just that type of clasp, and *of course* on the watch I wanted to use it on, the sweet-spot sizing would be exactly between what it can do. With these clasps, you really would need to provide bracelets with half-links and three-quarter-links.

And yes, if the curve is too bad, it's gonna dig into the wrist. Same problem can affect any other folding clasp. E.g. the really fancy ratcheting clasp with the folded bit on the Tempest Commodore (pic below). Who in their right mind decided it's a good idea to have that extreme inwards-curve on the folding bit... wtf? It was genuinely uncomfortable as all hell.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> My money's on smaller, thinner, and lighter.


That's what she said. :rodekaart


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)

docvail said:


> The supplier has those sorts of clasps, where the links attach directly to the clasp mechanism itself, like this:
> 
> View attachment 12779737
> 
> ...


Totaly agree with you on this. I really hate this kind of clasp as they are so unconfortables. Please never go for one of them with any of your watches !!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Yeah I hate butterfly clasps. I have skipped on a few watches I really liked because they had butterfly clasps. Can never get the right fit and I really don't like the look of them on my wrist.


----------



## tinitini (Aug 11, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I mean, they're _MICRO_-adjustments, emphasis on micro. They're meant to get a smaller increment of size change than you can get by only removing links. 4 or 5 of those holes will equal more than one link, depending on the length of the link.


For me : depending of the time and season my wrist is really changing size. When the clasp is of the 5 holes kind i usualy set the bracelet for my average size on the middle hole. And then i have two holes on each side to adjust for the current condition very easily, while adding or removing a link take a bit more efforts.

5 holes clasps are really more user friendly (for my case, at least)


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Easing the pain from Grayson.


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

So much fun stuff here in the last few days. I got too caught up in the thread to click the little multi-quote checkmark, but:

1) (a) Re the handwind dress watch, I actually really, REALLY like the Smitch PRS-35, which I only found out about with Doc's link to the 36:
Smiths PRS-35 Timefactors









It's got some ooh-lala of the Omega DeVille Prestige, without being an homage (though I like the applied numerals on the Omega better). The Smith's might have risen to the top of my 2018 list.









(b) when I clicked "add to cart" on the Timefactors webpage, I got this message:


> I'm closing earlier this year and for this I apologise. My wife has been in hospital since 30 September 2017 with a badly broken leg and has now developed an infection in the operation wound which is failing to respond to antibiotics. This is obviously causing me some concern and, combined with continuing to work over the last 10 weeks and the strain of hospital visiting, I'm completely exhausted.
> 
> I'll add the re-opening date to this message when my wife's condition becomes clearer.
> 
> Eddie Platts



Maybe y'all knew about this already, but what a sad thing to hear. I hope all goes well for Eddie and his wife.

(2) Re: the Nth bracelets: I guess you can put me in the camp of folks who think that your bracelets aren't quite as "nice" as the rest of the watch, Chris, though it's hard for me to articulate why in most cases. Maybe it's just that the braclets on your divers are a tad thinner than other brands? But I have noticed sharp edges too. This was particularly the case on the ratcheting clasp on my Azores. I was wearing it one day when I picked up my daughter to change her diaper, and it scratched her (not particularly severely, but bad enough that she cried and I decided I could never wear the clasp if I were playing with her). It scratched me a time or two as well. Just sayin' that I'm glad you're looking at other options.
Oh, and FWIW, I don't hate butterfly clasps on bracelets. If you provide decently proportioned half links, you can get as good or better of a fit than with a foldover. But then again, I'm fine with the lack of a microadjustment on any clasp, so long as there are decently proportioned half links. My SMP bracelet is extremely comfortable because I took the time to get the right amount of half links and regular links in for the right fit (so many people don't realize that a 1/2 link isn't literally 1/2 the size of a full link, so oftentimes if 1 link is too small 1 1/2 link is too big, you can go with 2 half links for "just right"). But then again I guess my wrists don't shrink or swell a lot depending on season, humidity, or whether I went to Del Taco the night before.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Perdendosi said:


> So much fun stuff here in the last few days. I got too caught up in the thread to click the little multi-quote checkmark, but:
> 
> 1) (a) Re the handwind dress watch, I actually really, REALLY like the Smitch PRS-35, which I only found out about with Doc's link to the 36:
> Smiths PRS-35 Timefactors
> ...


The thinness complaint about the NTH Subs' bracelet is a hard one to accept, knowing the math behind bracelet link size.

I've measured the link thickness on several bracelets from several brands, and what you generally find is that the link thickness is ~25% of case thickness. That's just the industry standard proportion, in the same way lugs are usually 1/2 of case diameter, and diameter is usually around 85% of lug length (give or take, though that ratio varies much more than the others).

Wanna guess how thick the Subs' links are, in relation to the Subs' 11.5mm case thickness (especially taking into account the 0.5mm domed crystal)?

If you guessed 25%, you're paying attention.

The Subs' bracelet isn't too thin. It's precisely the correct thickness for the thinner case. You wouldn't like a bigger, thicker, heavier link on the Subs, trust me.

People confuse link thickness and bracelet weight with quality. It's bull$h1t. Quality is quality. Weight is just a metric. If you've ever felt the rivet bracelet on an MKII, you'd be shocked at how lightweight it is, and I admit my initial reaction was that it was cheap.

The sharp clasp corners on the Tropics are just the result of a new design not being in production long enough to make improvements. That clasp is of my factory's own design, and the Tropics were the first model to use an 18mm version. I've given the factory feedback about it, and we should see incremental improvement on the next iteration.

A sharp edge on either a clasp or a bracelet's links is an unfortunate probability thing. We make 1000 NTH Subs. Maybe 1% have edges not as well finished as the others, perhaps 10% less well finished, if we want to try to quantify the difference.

So, 1%, or 10 guys get a bracelet which is 90% perfect, but 10% sharper edges. The other 990 bracelets are 100% perfect. We're talking about a 0.1% issue. It's not really "fair" to say all the bracelets are sub-par in that scenario. If we had a real and widespread problem with sharp edges on a bracelet, I'd know it, for certain. I'd know it because I'd be hearing it constantly, starting from the first deliveries.

It's just an unfortunate truth that most consumers will assume their own experience is representative of the whole group. If one guy gets a small problem, he assumes the whole batch is that way. It's true for big brands and small.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

Perdendosi said:


> (2) Re: the Nth bracelets: I guess you can put me in the camp of folks who think that your bracelets aren't quite as "nice" as the rest of the watch, Chris, though it's hard for me to articulate why in most cases. Maybe it's just that the braclets on your divers are a tad thinner than other brands?
> [/FONT][/COLOR]


this is actually one of the things i *liked* about the subs - a thinner (or perceived thinner) bracelet. for desk divers especially, a heavy bracelet is not a good thing. i've tried some watches on bracelets that felt like boat anchors, pulling me to the center of the earth. no thanks.

for a watch intending to be a sleeker watch - thin bracelet, thin, simple clasp = more resources to focus on dial, etc. (my preference, not a pronouncement)


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

I bloody love the bracelet on the Subs! Its thin and and therefore 'light', but feels quality. Sure, occasionally the fold-over part of the clasp pops open but I know I could squeeze that tighter if it was really a regular or problematic thing.

I've got a Helm Vanuatu. Awesome watch, but the bracelet is a 22mm non-tapering godzilla of a chunk of metal. I'm a bracelet guy, but I just can't wear something that substantial.

The Nacken (and other subs) are generally such well made comfortable pieces. Anyone who reads this as a potential customer should give one a go. My Nacken is 5/5 for 2018 so far...


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

huwp said:


> The 'blades' (for want of the correct word) on my jewellers screwdrivers were too fat to fit in the slot when I first tried to resize the bracelet on my sub. i.e. too fat across the short dimension rather than too wide along the longer dimension. Took me a while to understand what was happening. I had to file down the tip to a shiv to get them to fit, after which it was easy.


I've heard that the first thing a watchmaker does is sharpen his or her screwdrivers, so welcome to the club!

Oh and be careful out there kids, a slip with a razor sharp blade can do a number on the fingers...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I will admit this - the NTH Subs' bracelet, unless I'm very mistaken, is not a true 3-link bracelet. If that center link is truly a separate piece from the outer links, it must be permanently attached in such a way that keeps it from moving independently, which defeats the purpose of having it be a separate piece.

I'm guessing this saves costs, and that's more than likely why that's what we got. I don't remember specifying that the middle links should be individually articulated (and therefore, I probably didn't).

However, more joints and points of connection equals more points of possible failure. If nothing else, a single piece can't break apart the way two or three pieces joined together can.

Also, and this is something that sort of sticks in my craw sometimes - it's not as if a better bracelet or clasp could have been a part of the overall package without increasing the cost of that total package. If I'd said, "gimme a true 3-link bracelet, none of that one-piece-scored-to-look-like-three stuff", the production cost, and hence the price, would have been higher.

There are a lot of little things I do specify with each new model, and I often get told what I want to do will increase the costs. I tend to filter that sort of issue through a two-step decision process:

1. Is the added cost "worth" it?

I try to think about whether or not the added cost is justified because it will result in some improvement people will actually notice, and appreciate, and feel like it increases the value of the product. 

2. How does the added cost affect the total value offering? Is it near the top of the list of such items in order of priority?

Let's say I'm making the NTH Subs, a $600 diver with "only" a Miyota 9015 movement in it, and there's something I'm considering which might push the price up closer to $700. That's going to impact sales. Is it "worth it" in that context? Is it more important than some other item in the list of features/virtues, perhaps making something else worth cutting out?

If I demanded the center-links of the bracelet be individually articulated, and decided to use a more heavy-duty clasp, and changed nothing else, that would have made the watch more expensive. I'm not sure how many people would care enough about the differences to think the added cost would be worth it.

By contrast, I really wanted to use the Beads-o-Rice bracelet and expansion clasp on the Tropics. Those items were not cheap (you think a 3-link bracelet is nice, try a 7-link bracelet), and I realized the total cost, including a Miyota 9015, would make the retail price too high for "only" a 9015 inside the case.

So I switched to the STP movement, because "Swiss". Boom - $700 watch with a Swiss movement, rather than what could have been a $650-$675 watch with a 9015, or a $600 watch with a 9015, plus a bracelet and clasp not quite as nice as the ones we actually delivered.

I'm sure someone will read this as defensive or excuse-making, but the truth is you do get what you pay for, generally, so long as the person doing the selling isn't trying to rip you off. For $600, the Subs are as nice as we could make them, every single aspect considered, and for what they cost to produce.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

My neck feels fine, chris, but your W 'o T gave me a headache.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

All this talk of bracelets and clasps makes me think of the special clasp that Visitor Watch is/was offering. I haven't looked at it in a long time, but I remember thinking, if nothing else, it sure was different! If I recall correctly it looked rather intriguing and had some potential.

Watching your video, specifically looking at the differences between the ratcheting clasps, the "sample" one had much more of a curved edge/corner where your current clasp had more of a 90 degree edge/corner. You mentioned that this was a newer clasp for your factory and that minor improvements were likely to happen... Was this one of them?

I was going to try to show this by circling some still frames of your video, then I realized that...

Ain't nobody got time for dat!!!



Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I appreciate the explanation. This is good stuff; I'm really learning a lot from WUS in general, but especially these glimpses into how a watch designer thinks.

You can put me into the camp of someone who, without the requisite knowledge, equated heft with quality WRT bracelets. Again, I use Chr. Ward as my example as I don't have that many other watches to which I can compare. 

I know that Rolex is super highly regarded. A number of my colleagues at work wear submariners, so one day when I was wearing the CW with bracelet, I asked to try one on, and I took a really critical look at the bracelet. Truthfully? I was completely underwhelmed, like, "Damn, this feels kinda cheap. What the hell is the big deal, my CW is better than this?!"

Now then, that's probably not true, but the Rolex felt so light, thin, and underwhelming that it simply felt...cheaper.

I really took a good look at the Nacken once I sized the bracelet, and thought for a moment about it. And my thoughts were, "this bracelet kind of feels cheap. But, you know, I think it's because it's so thin and light, kind of like that Rolex. Maybe I have this wrong. Besides, would I really want a bigger bracelet?" Then I thought about swapping it out for my CW bracelet and realized it would look absolutely ridiculous because of how thin the Nacken is.

I guess this is a semi-drunk and long-winded way of saying that you are spot on in a lot of ways, Doc. Regardless, the bracelet keeps the watch on my wrist, looks good, and doesn't feel like an anchor. 

Damn, I'm rambling. Later guys.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

kendalw3 said:


> All this talk of bracelets and clasps makes me think of the special clasp that Visitor Watch is/was offering. I haven't looked at it in a long time, but I remember thinking, if nothing else, it sure was different! If I recall correctly it looked rather intriguing and had some potential.
> 
> Watching your video, specifically looking at the differences between the ratcheting clasps, the "sample" one had much more of a curved edge/corner where your current clasp had more of a 90 degree edge/corner. You mentioned that this was a newer clasp for your factory and that minor improvements were likely to happen... Was this one of them?
> 
> ...


This is the clasp from the Visitor bracelet. Absolutely stunning but I believe it was cancelled along with a couple of the watches.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

SteamJ said:


> This is the clasp from the Visitor bracelet. Absolutely stunning but I believe it was cancelled along with a couple of the watches.
> 
> View attachment 12780921


That's the one!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I thought the Azores was priced higher because of the Swiss movement. Didn't know about the bracelet thing. Damn, I feel like such a sheep sometimes.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

I for one really like the NTH bracelets. They’re very thin and very comfortable for me. I have had zero issues with sharp edges, etc. The Steinhart bracelets are also nice, but i don’t like the snap-up second release as much as the two button release on the NTH. 

With a 6.75” wrist, many bracelets are just too big for me and most are too thick. Again, the NTH are nice and thin and really mate well with my wrist.

Skip


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Speaking of bracelets... maybe it's high time to bring back the old stuff? https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ode-to-rattly-old-bracelets-editorial


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

X2-Elijah said:


> Speaking of bracelets... maybe it's high time to bring back the old stuff? https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ode-to-rattly-old-bracelets-editorial


I'm not on board. Cheers.

Sent from my P027 using Tapatalk


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

The bracelet thickness thing is always weird to me. I think I'm just about opposite of the crowd on this point in that I really like a well machined thin(ish) bracelet. The SARB035 bracelet for instance, in spite of it many (many) flaws, always feels deliciously thin, but excellently well machined. 

I'd size down on just about every other bracelet I own, if given the opportunity. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmyeah. I think overall I'd also like a thin bracelet - but not a rattly/floppy one, nor one that nicks skin. For some reason, seems like you can never have the positives without the negatives - either you have 
A: Thin bracelet (+), but rattles (-) and barely holds together (-), or
B: Thick bracelet (-) with thick clasp (--), but doesn't rattle or twist out of shape (+).

(some might claim that mesh is both thin and not-rattly, but mesh bracelets don't really shape to the wrist enough, and have a *very* specific look that is not always pleasant)


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

To be fair weight is confused for quality in many things (cell phones, power tools, cameras, sandwiches, etc). I don't know if it is just because it is easier to make heavier products feel "solid" or if there is some human conditioning that makes us feel better spending money on something that feels like a brick instead of a feather either way it is a false equivalence.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

False equivalence or not, the way things feel to us, instinctively, does matter.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

I like the bracelet on the Azores. It feels right on the hand, and I love that I can open it up a notch in the afternoon. 
I have two BFWs (50mm each), and they are friggin heavy. One was a second hand buy and the bracelet was too short. There was no way I was going to purchase links because it was 2 inches short and already stupidly heavy. It's sitting happily on leather. The other will need curved springbars just to accommodate a nato strap - bad design choice. I like the look, but it's a constant presence on my wrist, its 45mm sibling was much lighter/nicer. I won't go 50mm or bigger again. Good thing 50mm isn't Doc's thing. 
With modern style bracelets, there is so much added weight. My vintage watches are hardly noticeable with their lightweight bracelets. I definitely don't agree that weight means better quality.

Incidentally, I am back from my Christmas holiday and have full access to my collection again. The first thing I grabbed was my Phantom. Aside from a couple of sentimental pieces, this is my favourite watch. 









Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Sure it matters. However, it is mainly because its hard to sell something when your customer's first impression is "cheap" not because the weight was necessarily the right tool for the job.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Nicely "articulated" Doc!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I thought the Azores was priced higher because of the Swiss movement. Didn't know about the bracelet thing. Damn, I feel like such a sheep sometimes.


It was both.

The original plan was to make them with the 9015. When I found out the total unit cost, I dug into why, and the big factors were the bracelet and clasp. Otherwise, in terms of specs and components, they wouldn't have been much different than the NTH Subs.

But their price would have been higher than the Subs, and I foresaw people griping about paying that much for a watch with "only" a 9015 inside, and not being able (or not wanting) to understand that the movement is just one component, not the only driver of cost.

Instead, I decided to change to a Swiss movement, figuring people would be less likely to gripe about the price, even if it was actually higher than what it would have been had I used the 9015.

It was that, or ditch the Beads-of-Rice bracelet and expanding clasp for something simpler and less costly.

This is something I've been harping about for a while - the WIS tendency to focus so much on movement versus cost, instead of total package versus cost, forces brands like mine to make those sorts of decisions.

I'm not going to take it on the chin because people don't want to spend more than $600 for a watch with "only" a 9015 in it. I'll just change the components to get the price I need. Sometimes that entails actually raising the price, or lowering the value of what you get.

Like I said, so long as the seller isn't trying to rip you off, you get what you pay for. Demanding more only means you'll pay more, or get less in some other area (service, quality, etc).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmyeah. I think overall I'd also like a thin bracelet - but not a rattly/floppy one, nor one that nicks skin. For some reason, seems like you can never have the positives without the negatives - either you have
> A: Thin bracelet (+), but rattles (-) and barely holds together (-), or
> B: Thick bracelet (-) with thick clasp (--), but doesn't rattle or twist out of shape (+).
> 
> (some might claim that mesh is both thin and not-rattly, but mesh bracelets don't really shape to the wrist enough, and have a *very* specific look that is not always pleasant)


I disagree.

I don't think thin bracelets are any more likely to rattle, or "barely hold together" than thicker bracelets. The point of that Hodinkee video was about vintage bracelets, not thinner bracelets.

Our bracelets aren't prone to rattling, and they hold together well.

If you wear your bracelet loose, and shake your wrist, it will make noise. That's not a rattly, poor quality bracelet, it's a loose bracelet.

A real rattle, as often heard with vintage bracelets, came from hollow parts and really loose tolerances. We have neither of those in our bracelets.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Nicely "articulated" Doc!!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Perceptions of weight/quality are all relative.

I showed my personal NTH Subs - bracelets already sized - to my neighbor. He said they were heavy.

I showed the DevilRay prototypes - bracelets sized - to my neighbor, he said they were REALLY heavy.

The guy doesn't wear a watch. He has no idea what "heavy" is in watches, especially affordable, mechanical watches.

I saw an MKII at a GTG. Of course I had the NTH Subs there. I picked up the MKII, and I was shocked at how lightweight the bracelet felt.

Is the MKII bracelet "cheap" - I don't know. It may be. Or, it may be that it feels like it does because that's precisely how Bill Yao wanted it to feel, and he obsessed over getting the feel exactly the way he wanted it, and it's in fact fairly expensive. I have no idea.

Again, if there was a widespread problem with people thinking the bracelet was too thin or too light, I'd know it, because I'd never hear the end of complaints about it. 

If the factory sends me protos, and I don't like anything about them, I don't let the process move forward until we fix whatever I don't like. The first set of Subs prototypes I got mistakenly had non-tapering "President" style bracelets, which I absolutely hated. I made them send me the correct, tapering oyster style bracelet. If I didn't think they felt right, I'd have asked for a thicker link.

In that sense, the NTH Subs' bracelets are what I wanted them to be - appropriately sized in proportion to the thin case, and good quality, despite being less thick and less heavy than some other bracelets which can be found on thicker/heavier watches.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ever pick up a titanium watch? Spooky light. I hated it. I suppose if the design was aesthetically pleasing I'd have gotten past the material chosen. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Glylex (Jan 29, 2017)

SteamJ said:


> This is the clasp from the Visitor bracelet. Absolutely stunning but I believe it was cancelled along with a couple of the watches.


FWIW the Visitor Duneshore bracelet was not cancelled, it shipped last year, and a video on its interesting micro-adjust setup can be found at Facebook and the Visitor site.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Snowy Azores today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Amuthini (Sep 15, 2011)

SteamJ said:


> This is the clasp from the Visitor bracelet. Absolutely stunning but I believe it was cancelled along with a couple of the watches.
> 
> View attachment 12780921


that looks like it would be uncomfortable.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I don't think thin bracelets are any more likely to rattle, or "barely hold together" than thicker bracelets. The point of that Hodinkee video was about vintage bracelets, not thinner bracelets.
> 
> ...


Sorry for causing a misunderstanding - I wasn't trying to imply that subs or azores had light rattly bracelets - imo they don't, the weight is well in line with the rest of the watch and they feel sturdy enough. Fwiw imo the subs bracelet is among good ones in the pricerange, albeit very conservatively styled.

When writing that, I was thinking of the people who intentionally buy old seiko jubilee bracelets for.. god-knows-what reason. That's the rattly, overly flexible stuff I was getting at.

The ideal, of course, would be a light and thin bracelet with damasko-style rigidity. No idea how much that would end up costing though.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

hwa said:


> Ever pick up a titanium watch? Spooky light. I hated it. I suppose if the design was aesthetically pleasing I'd have gotten past the material chosen.


Titanium is my favorite. Light and sturdy - I have a Certina DS Ti that is outstanding. So light, you forget it's there.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Getting ready to wear a Doc Vail's NTH Devil Ray watch!!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Rhorya said:


> Getting ready to wear a Doc Vail's NTH Devil Ray watch!!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


You might need to request some extra bracelet links.. 

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

Half a year ago I tried Certina DS Ti - felt good indeed, how does it scratch in your usage ? 
Though it felt good enough, my Nacken vintage black was perfect - light but not featherweight even on my small 6.5-6.75 wrist, so I suppose it feels even better on bigger ones


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

The Nacken is going like bitcoin had to get one










I have one like this on my aqua Terra is less toolish for a non Diver I would t put it on everything


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

MikeCfromLI said:


> The Nacken is going like bitcoin had to get one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude, we should eventually try to get together.....you might be the closest WUS member to my location..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> Dude, we should eventually try to get together.....you might be the closest WUS member to my location..


Don't do it, Mike. He'll put you in a rear naked choke!

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> Dude, we should eventually try to get together.....you might be the closest WUS member to my location..


Where abouts I live in Nassau and work in Midtown


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I hug from behind never hurts anyone. You just have to ease into the hug. Easy-peezy!



docvail said:


> Don't do it, Mike. He'll put you in a rear naked choke!
> 
> New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> This is the clasp from the Visitor bracelet. Absolutely stunning but I believe it was cancelled along with a couple of the watches.
> 
> View attachment 12780921





Glylex said:


> FWIW the Visitor Duneshore bracelet was not cancelled, it shipped last year, and a video on its interesting micro-adjust setup can be found at Facebook and the Visitor site.





Amuthini said:


> that looks like it would be uncomfortable.


I'm pretty sure I saw Phil R post a video showing the micro-adjustment ability under the clasp.

Let me first say I think Phil MIGHT be a genius. If he's not a genius, he's very sharp, and a solid designer.

Here's the clasp, expanded:









Hiding the micro-adjustments under the clasp the way he did was very smart, but I'm not surprised, because Phil is smart.

But, that aside, it's still a butterfly clasp on a bracelet, and I imagine it's much thicker than the links, such that the clasp stands proud on the wrist, and more than likely, directly over the tendons.

I'm just not a fan of that style of clasp, period, though if you're going to have one, Phil made a nice one, and I applaud the initiative and thought which went into doing something custom-designed the way he did.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Sorry for causing a misunderstanding - I wasn't trying to imply that subs or azores had light rattly bracelets - imo they don't, the weight is well in line with the rest of the watch and they feel sturdy enough. Fwiw imo the subs bracelet is among good ones in the pricerange, albeit very conservatively styled.
> 
> When writing that, I was thinking of the people who intentionally buy old seiko jubilee bracelets for.. god-knows-what reason. That's the rattly, overly flexible stuff I was getting at.
> 
> The ideal, of course, would be a light and thin bracelet with damasko-style rigidity. No idea how much that would end up costing though.


No apologies necessary. I'm well past getting upset simply because someone might disagree with me, but I'm happy for the clarification.

The Subs' bracelets are conservatively-styled, but that was deliberate. They're meant to be (and drew their inspiration from) classic tool-watches. I didn't want anything too fancy or blingtastic.

The biggest question I had to wrestle with regarding the bracelets was how to do the end-link - better as we have it, with the faux center-section of the end-link extending past the lugs (I think it's better), or better to have the center-section cut shorter, such that the center-section of the next link slips up under it (never liked that look, personally).

I don't regret the decision, but in retrospect, that style of end-link frequently lacks the definition around the center-link when the links are molded, as ours are (and just about any affordable watch would have the same). I'll likely look for some better solution on future models. Whether I'll find it or not remains to be seen.

I've seen guys put jubilee bracelets on the Subs, and it doesn't really "bother" me per se. It's his watch, let the guy do what he wants to it. But it goes against the ethos behind the Subs' designs - tough, compact, all-business tool watches, suitable for military divers.

If you're dressing them up, you missed the point. They're not meant to be "dressy divers". James Bond didn't wear his MilSub on a jubilee. If anything, put it on a NATO. But that bracelet is appropriate for the size and style of the watch, and its intended purpose.

Hopefully this is the last point to be made on the Subs' bracelets - the same vendor which provided them also provided the bracelets for the Tropics, and I've yet to see anyone say the quality of those bracelets falls short in any way (save the sharp corners). Ditto the DevilRay bracelets, which few people have seen/felt yet, but which, I assure you, will feel anything but "too thin" or "cheap". The Subs' bracelets are thin, to go with the thin case, but they are not poorly made, notwithstanding the handful of instances where people found a sharp edge here or there.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pb9610 said:


> Titanium is my favorite. Light and sturdy - I have a Certina DS Ti that is outstanding. So light, you forget it's there.





s.z said:


> Half a year ago I tried Certina DS Ti - felt good indeed, how does it scratch in your usage ?
> Though it felt good enough, my Nacken vintage black was perfect - light but not featherweight even on my small 6.5-6.75 wrist, so I suppose it feels even better on bigger ones


One of the reasons I haven't looked into making a titanium watch is the lightness. The original Seiko Samurai, a design which I love, was titanium, but I could never warm up to it in person. It just feels too light. I was excited to see Seiko re-issue them in steel, until I saw the new design (meh, not as good as the original).

Regarding the "weight = quality" thing, I totally get it. There's something about an object which feel too light that prevents me, and likely many others, from feeling like it's "quality", regardless of what our logical minds tell us.

Personally, that's something I like about thinner/smaller steel watches. They have the right feeling of heft when held in the hand, but aren't overly heavy when worn.

While I love the DevilRay, even on the bracelet, I notice its weight while I'm wearing it, something I can't say about the NTH Subs.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'm pretty sure I saw Phil R post a video showing the micro-adjustment ability under the clasp.
> 
> Let me first say I think Phil MIGHT be a genius. If he's not a genius, he's very sharp, and a solid designer.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. I don't love butterfly clasps as all. On this one though I just admire the beauty. I've seen both a Duneshore and a Park Vail firsthand and Phil is probably one of the best designers out there. The Park Vail especially blew me away. I'd say it's worth twice what he asks from a quality standpoint.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> I totally agree. I don't love butterfly clasps as all. On this one though I just admire the beauty. I've seen both a Duneshore and a Park Vail firsthand and Phil is probably one of the best designers out there. The _*Park Vail*_ especially blew me away. I'd say it's worth twice what he asks from a quality standpoint.


Jas - I don't know if you're making a pun with my last name, or if my last name is doing that thing to you, where we get stuck saying someone's name wrong because of some association that gets stuck in our heads, but I'm pretty sure you mean the Vale Park Officer, not the Park Vail.

As for Phil's design chops -

I appreciated the original Duneshore for its originality and the thought which went into it, but it never really appealed to my personal tastes. I like the Vale Park Officer much more, personally, but that's a subjective view, based on my own individual tastes.

What I like in general is that he's obviously carrying some design cues over from one design to the next, which is the foundation of establishing a unique and consistent design language for his brand, something I don't see many micros doing (including me). That he's done it from day one is pretty remarkable.

I also really like the level of thought he's putting into some things, and the challenges he's willing to take on. My hat's off to him for several of the things he's done.

As for his pricing -

I was happy to see he didn't under-price his first model, and I'm even happier to see how well he's doing with the higher prices on his follow-up model(s). It goes to prove that people are willing to pay more for good design, and those people realize that a watch is more than just the sum of its specs and components.

I honestly don't have a very good idea what his production costs are, the way I do with most other competitors. The things he's doing differently add a layer of complexity, and they're things I haven't done myself, so I can't really know. But I reckon they MUST add to his costs somehow, and I further reckon that's a large driver of his prices being what they are (which is not to take anything away from their quality, which, from the limited experience I've had with them, seems very good).

I could write a book on pricing. I won't, but I could. Suffice to say that "correct" pricing is as much art as it is science, and for most micros, it's largely a game of costs-versus-production numbers, but design should be (and sometimes is) a big factor. Even with all the cool things he's done, if Phil's designs sucked, he wouldn't be able to sell them for the prices he does.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> If you're dressing them up, you missed the point. They're not meant to be "dressy divers". James Bond didn't wear his MilSub on a jubilee. If anything, put it on a NATO. But that bracelet is appropriate for the size and style of the watch, and its intended purpose.


I'm not sure what is the exact meaning of "dressy divers", but here is one of the very first Submariner 6204's advertisement:

View attachment 12785959


And I happen to think that is also the idea behind Submariner line ever since: a diver watch that is not so chunky, and is elegant enough to go with you anywhere. (Nowadays no one wears a Submariner for diving )

Back to the NTH Subs line. I'm not talking about the bracelet (not a fan of jubilee either), but is it the original concept of the super thin case is also that it fits well under the cuff for formal occasions? I've never dived, but I like wearing the NTH with a suit!


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Forever8895 said:


> .... (Nowadays no one wears a Submariner for diving ) ...


Not a Submariner, but an NTH Sub...


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kendalw3 said:


> Not a Submariner, but an NTH Sub...


Great to see it underwater! And I'm myself not even a good swimmer


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> I'm not sure what is the exact meaning of "dressy divers", but here is one of the very first Submariner 6204's advertisement:
> 
> View attachment 12785959
> 
> ...


Fitting under a cuff is a happy result of the case being thin. It was never the reason FOR the case being made thin.

We made the case thin because most diver's watches are too damned thick, period. Thicker than they need to be, and we set out to prove it.

If you're attending a formal affair, wear a true dress watch, or no watch at all.

If you're going to wear a dive watch, okay, your call, but at least the thinness of the NTH Subs will help one fit under your cuff.

And therein lies what I believe most people mean when they say "dressy diver" - the diving watch people wear with a suit, despite knowing that a suit and a diving watch really don't go together, but it seems kosher because the watch was designed to be "more dressy", perhaps in light of the understanding most divers watches will spend more time in the office than near any body of water, save for the office water cooler.

The Christopher Ward Trident is what I think of as a "dressy diver" - shiny ceramic bezel, polished center links, lots of polished surfaces, thin stick markers without as much surface area for "killer lume". It may have the specs of a diving watch, but it doesn't have the tool watch aesthetic.















I can't say how many people would wear a Submariner diving, but my wife is a big fan of the TV show "Fixer Upper", and I've noticed that the guy on the show ("Chip") wears a Steel Sub C (the one with the ceramic bezel insert) while doing demolition and renovation.

I always admire that about him when I see him wearing it. He may be a well-paid TV personality, but at least he knows that regardless of the price, his watch is a tool watch, and he wears it like he doesn't give a f**k what happens to it, because he knows the watch can take it. I'd never spend $10k on a watch, but if I did, I'd want one that could take a beating, rather than one I'd be afraid to take outside.

THAT is the NTH Subs' mission, not sliding under a cuff. I made the watches to be worn, not babied.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> THAT is the NTH Subs' mission, not sliding under a cuff. I made the watches to be worn, not babied.


Well said! I wish I could be more active, but my work and study require me to sit behind a desk for hours. Regardless, since I got the Nacken 3 months ago, I can't stop wearing it!


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

docvail said:


> The Christopher Ward Trident is what I think of as a "dressy diver" - shiny ceramic bezel, polished center links, lots of polished surfaces, thin stick markers without as much surface area for "killer lume". It may have the specs of a diving watch, but it doesn't have the tool watch aesthetic.


I had a Trident for about 18 months and was really sad to have to sell it. It's a stunning watch in person. But the 43mm size just swallowed my wrist and the weight was too much for me. I tried to wear it on a strap, but the size was still too much and I missed the bracelet. The bracelet was pretty beefy.

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

s.z said:


> Half a year ago I tried Certina DS Ti - felt good indeed, how does it scratch in your usage ?


Eh, the clasp and the links on the underside of your wrist scratch, but it's kind of expected in a working/tool watch. The trade off for the weight and look is worth it, IMO


----------



## s.z (May 3, 2017)

Got you.
As recently Doc said what makes half of it - subs not meant to be babied. Small and light enough, sturdy with is character and again beautiful enough. I like that philosophy in the subs, though I am not having one for couple months - hundred times I can say it was a good watch. 
I am the one who is afraid of ceramic and sapphire bezel inserts, so Nackens hard steel is perfect. 
Good and bad things we create come from inside of us - to make a good thing useful for other people is priceless


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'd never spend $10k on a watch, but if I did, I'd want one that could take a beating, rather than one I'd be afraid to take outside.
> 
> THAT is the NTH Subs' mission, not sliding under a cuff. I made the watches to be worn, not babied.


That describes all my watches. That's what I like about NTH


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

For formal occasions, I wouldn’t wear the sub. But for business casual to business (below business formal), I’d wear it as a desk diver. Hope to someday take it diving for real, but haven’t had a chance for a number of years. But yes, formal occasions necessitate a dress watch.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

C.ward? Please. SMP sets the standard for dress diver. Skinny-thin before NTH made it cool (and affordable)!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Wow, a lot of interesting things in this thread.

First, WRT the rattly bracelet Hodinkee article. The Rolex I referenced about the cheap feeling bracelet is at least 30 years old. The guy who owns it is a retired Marine infantry officer who's been through a lot of combat. He said he bought it as a young Lieutenant in the PI for $600. When I asked to check it, he literally took it off his wrist and threw it across the room at me. Luckily, even though surprised, I caught it. I couldn't believe he would throw an $8000 dollar watch across the room like that, but he said, "It's a Rolex, it's insured, and it's not going to break anyway." He said he's worn it through everything for 30 years and never a problem. I can't think of a better definition of a tool watch. 

Second, when talking Chris Ward, that's exactly what I think of as a dress diver. Lately I wear a dress shirt and when teaching, a coat and tie, and so the Chr. Ward looks fine. It also is a true diver, so I can wear it surfing after work with no worries. Last month I had to switch to my camo uniform, though, and while I wore the Chr. Ward, I didn't think it really worked with the uniform. It felt too dressy. I thought about it a while, and I think it's the indices. For some reason, those thin lines instead of the harsher round circles makes the watch look more formal...maybe it's more polished too?

Finally, so far I really like the Nacken because I think it splits the difference between the Chr. Ward and my new Seiko SKX007. I think it looks really good with a dress shirt and coat, and also with a uniform. And, it also works underwater. I think it hits a real sweet spot with quality and price; I wouldn't want another $200 added for a Swiss movement, different bracelet, etc. It's where it needs to be.

I'm curious to see how the Devil Ray fits into the mix. I've been posting on SteamJ's thread about this. I feel like the SKX, Nacken, and Chr. Ward really are a great 3-watch combo. The Devil Ray wouldn't seem to supplant any of those watches. I can't wait to see how it looks on the wrist, and how it works in uniform. My next duty station, shortly after I get the DR, will be back to the Fleet and camo every day. And hopefully surfing every day. I'm not sure until I see it how the DR will fit into the rotation, but I'm sure it will.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

One last point: I can't imagine throwing any of my watches across a room, let alone one that costs Rolex money. I really appreciate the tool nature of their watches, but damn man. There is some point, for me apparently right at $600, where I'm no longer to risk my watches to the whims of fate. 

I'm stressing over a wave breaking on my head and whacking my Nacken off my wrist because I used the wrong spring bar. And that's at $600. At $8000? Not going to risk it. I don't have that kind of disposable cash.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I haven't had a chance to try the Nacken in the water yet. I definitely want a watch on a bracelet. I'm not sure how the Nacken's going to work under a wetsuit glove. The Nacken doesn't have a wetsuit extension; I typically wear my winter watches over my glove and under my wetsuit sleeve because under the glove is uncomfortable. Since I have no choice, I'll try the Nacken under glove the next time conditions permit ocean access and waves. It's been a bit ridiculous here the last few days, but mid-week next week we should have some thaw and waves and maybe I can get my Subie to the surf... 

Subaru....the NTH of cars? Maybe...maybe...


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> I always admire that about him when I see him wearing it. He may be a well-paid TV personality, but at least he knows that regardless of the price, his watch is a tool watch, and he wears it like he doesn't give a f**k what happens to it, because he knows the watch can take it.


I always think the same when I watch Hot Rod Garage on YouTube. 'Lucky' wears his Rolex sub throughout so much time in thework shop. That thing must take a hella beating with the work those guys carry out, but ultimately he I guess he knows that watch was designed to take just such a beating.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Toonces said:


> One last point: I can't imagine throwing any of my watches across a room, let alone one that costs Rolex money. I really appreciate the tool nature of their watches, but damn man. There is some point, for me apparently right at $600, where I'm no longer to risk my watches to the whims of fate.
> 
> I'm stressing over a wave breaking on my head and whacking my Nacken off my wrist because I used the wrong spring bar. And that's at $600. At $8000? Not going to risk it. I don't have that kind of disposable cash.


I hear you about the Rollie, but to that Marine, it was a used $600 watch he threw at you. Had he paid $8k the. He might not have been so cavalier. But then again he is a Marine!! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Very interesting and thoughtful discussion regarding the tool/dress trade-off, however, If any dive watch can carry off the dress/formal function it is this one:









There is straightforward elegance to this watch with lots of subtle design detail which means - for me, at least - it can easily work in almost all situations.

A recent business meeting had me sitting next to "Mr. Rolex", he was constantly glancing at my Antilles and after the meeting his first words were as he pointed at my watch "A couple of grand?" "Good guess" was the answer and I didn't clarify things any further. He wasn't a WIS and my immediate thoughts when seeing his Rolex were - is it a snide? which is a potential conclusion that can befall any Rolex, Omega, etc. Having been asked a couple of times whether my Omega was a real one, was enough for me to park it and then eventually sell it, that would have happened anyway after watching Eddie Redmayne in an Omega advert on TV over Christmas poncing about on a yacht.......

Style and exclusivity are no longer the sole right of the guy who can drop a 4 or 5-figure bagatelle of bucks onto a big name Swiss piece, we have an incredible choice of high quality, superbly designed watches available ( perhaps a wee bit _too_ available...) that, quite frankly, outshines much of the stuff that the propaganda tells us we must aspire to, don't you just love it?

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Very interesting and thoughtful discussion regarding the tool/dress trade-off, however, If any dive watch can carry off the dress/formal function it is this one:
> 
> View attachment 12787161
> 
> ...


I used to think there was no discernible difference in quality after you get above a certain price point, and that beyond that point, every additional dollar spent is just wasted, an "unearned premium" due to the mystique of "luxury" brand marketing.

I still think there's a good portion of hype built into luxury brand pricing, but I've come around to a more nuanced view of the quality differences.

It's not that there aren't any. There are, but starting from the first dollar spent, it's a game of diminishing returns, where each incremental step up in quality requires a disproportionately larger step up in costs (and thus, prices), in order to achieve it.

A $100 watch is not twice as good as a $50 watch. The difference between a $1200 watch and a $600 watch is almost certainly going to be even less noticeable, much less quantifiable.

It seems like everyone reaches their own limit of willingness to continue paying more as each step up in price becomes less of a bargain. Once you're at $500, give or take, if you want that 5% extra bump in noticeable quality, it's likely going to cost you 500% more to see it.*

To some, it's worth it. To many, not so much.

*My general / hypothetical example here is of a $500-$700 watch, of the quality we and many top micros produce, which compares well to just about anything you can buy up to about $3000-$4000 (a ~500% increase, or 6x multiple of price), the price range at which there are objective / quantifiable differences which are noticeable.

Semi-related - did you guys see RatFace's thread about gear ratios/winding and accuracy?

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/about-gear-ratios-winding-4604735.html

I'll never be an accuracy nut personally, but recent discussions about it have me thinking about accuracy more lately, and our ability to measure it objectively (as opposed to "fit and finish") provides a concrete example of the above.

He's got an STP that runs -1 sec/day at full wind, and seems like it's running well within spec all the way down to stopping. My guestimate is that it runs +6/+7 on average, from full power to stopping.

Likewise, he's got a 9015 that runs +6/+7 sec/day consistently - astoundingly consistently - across its entire power reserve. Anecdotally, that's far from the best performance I've seen from the 9015, not that it's bad, at all, as it is. It's not unheard of for people to report accuracy well under 6 secs/day.

When a "pedestrian" movement can perform that admirably, it becomes increasingly difficult to understand why anyone would feel compelled to spend more to get more accuracy in a movement, considering what it costs to buy up to a level that is at best, only marginally better. There doesn't seem to be any rational argument to be made that the added investment has much of a return.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Quick wristie









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Blue Devil Ray prototype is here...sweet watch...a manly watch that looks badazz IRL... bracelet is unique and I love it...more pics later...









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Couple more









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Mil6161 said:


> Couple more
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How does it compare for size against your Orthos?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> How does it compare for size against your Orthos?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wears a touch smaller...like 41mm-ish...









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Suite.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> ...A $100 watch is not twice as good as a $50 watch. The difference between a $1200 watch and a $600 watch is almost certainly going to be even less noticeable, much less quantifiable.
> 
> It seems like everyone reaches their own limit of willingness to continue paying more as each step up in price becomes less of a bargain. Once you're at $500, give or take, if you want that 5% extra bump in noticeable quality, it's likely going to cost you 500% more to see it.*
> 
> ...


Related to the above...I see Chris (Mil6161) got the turquoise DevilRay prototype from Jason (SteamJ), and has been posting pics, here and in other threads. (Nice pics, Chris, thank you, and glad you like it.)

I've been doing my damnedest to avoid getting sucked into more online debates about pricing vs quality vs "heritage" (and all the other intangibles associated with established/luxury brands, real or imagined). This is part of the reason I've avoided posting in any threads discussing my watches, with this one being the obvious exception.

I may not post in those threads, but I'd by lying if I said I didn't keep an eye on them. If it seems like my posts in this thread are in response to things said elsewhere, it's only because they are. It's currently as close as I seem able to get to not responding at all.

While he's a newer face around our campfire, RatFacedGit obviously has the other turquoise prototype. He's local to me, we met this past year, and I let him borrow it for some photos.

While we haven't seen quite as much of them, all but two of the other prototypes (I got 8) are also out on "Whirled Tour", and between this forum, Facebook and Instagram, you should be seeing some pics of them. I'd encourage everyone to feel free to ask any of the guys posting pics for their thoughts about them.

(*If you're in the UK*, there's an orange prototype over there, circulating among a handful of Brits, and I think it should be available to see at the next London GTG, whenever that happens. Likewise, a silver/white one is floating around *Canada*, among another handful of Canucks. The black one, and the other orange one are also roaming around the USA, and my hope is we'll see some more of them as they change hands.)

I'll have to leave all those debates/arguments in those other threads to you all. Have them if you want, or don't. There will never be an end to online "experts" who believe they own the franchise on determining what this or that watch from this or that brand should sell for, and they'll always nay-say the quality of a microbrand like mine. The more well-known my brands become, the more detractors we'll have.

A fellow WIS, someone who is a friend, but who has not been a rabid fan or repeat customer, and someone who has owned a fair number of "grail" level watches, told me point blank that our beads-of-rice bracelet was better than Doxa's. I think he said "much" better, but I'll take "better", if that's as far as someone wants to go.

That's obviously his opinion. I've never owned a Doxa, and while I've seen a handful in person, I've never closely inspected their BOR bracelet, so I don't have a personal opinion on the matter.

However, a number of people, people who I know own more expensive watches, have remarked about how good that bracelet is, compared to the usual alternatives, even at much higher prices.

I started sending prototypes out on tour with some long-time friends/customers because I wanted people to feel confident in pre-ordering new models from me. I'm proud of the designs my team has created, and the quality of what my factory is producing. I'm confident about what I'm selling.

It's one thing for people to hear me talk about it, or read a blog review, or read comments from people who bought the watch, just received it, and are in that "justifying a recent purchase/delivery" mode of thinking, where we all tend to be complimentary. But it's harder to argue with someone who got a chance to test-drive a pre-production prototype and came away impressed.

Some say the DevilRay is a Doxa homage. It's not exactly that, but I'm fine, in fact happy with that comparison being made.

I always liked Doxas. They make a nice watch. I like the DevilRay better, all-around, and I don't think it's an underdog, at all, in a direct comparison, regardless of the fact that it's about 1/3 the price (at full retail, much less if you pre-ordered, and there's still time to do so, though availability is low on all versions).

Even at the full retail price of $700, for what you get, and when compared to its most direct competitors, from both micro and mainstream brands, it's a solid bargain.

I'll likely do one more pre-order on the NTH Subs sometime this year. We made 1000 cases/bracelets to start, and have been assembling them in batches for the last two years. I have about 180 of these "kits" left, and after that, it may be some time before we make more, if we ever do. When we open pre-orders, I wouldn't screw around thinking about it too long.

Likewise, my team is working on a new model, which will likely be available for pre-order sometime this year. This will likely be the only other model we produce until 2019. My guess is we'll make ~300 pieces, total, before we move onto other projects and ideas. Again, if you like the looks of what we're doing, I wouldn't drag my feet on the way to checkout.

I sincerely appreciate the enthusiasm you all have for what my team is doing, and the camaraderie we all share. I do see the comments many of you make in other parts of the forum, as well as in other venues, praising our work. I hope you all know how grateful I am, despite my not constantly popping up to add a comment with my thanks. My intent is to be as invisible as I can be, because I'm no longer a forum sponsor, and because unfortunately my presence seems to stir debate, rather than squash it.

My hope is that the more my business grows, the less argument there'll be about the value and quality of what we're selling, and the more redundant/unneeded my presence in discussion will be. Someday I hope to be like Jason from Halios - he seems to be unanimously well-regarded, with his customers' undivided attention on whatever he's doing, and yet we rarely see him pop his head up here.

Until then, I'll be hanging around, mostly lurking, focusing most of my posts here, mostly unfiltered.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


> Wears a touch smaller...like 41mm-ish...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm reading that as the DR wears smaller, despite having a 1mm wider case.

I'd agree, and it makes sense. The DR's bezel and dial are smaller than the bezel/dial on the Orthos, and the DR's lug-length is shorter.

Although the DR is 0.5mm thicker, its case was designed to hug the wrist more, and, in my humble opinion, it actually feels thinner than the Orthos.

Sized to my ~7" wrist, their weights are close - 180g for the Orthos, 198g for the DR, but without removing the bracelet to weigh each, I believe the DR case may be lighter, and most, if not all that weight difference is the DR's thicker bracelet and clasp.

When I hold each in my hand, the DR feels more balanced between case and bracelet than the Orthos does. This also makes sense, as the links on the DR bracelet are 0.5mm thicker than on the Orthos bracelet, and thus I'd expect the DR's bracelet to be slightly heavier than the Orthos bracelet.

In the weeks when I was wearing the DR protos on a strap, it didn't feel overly heavy or large to me at all.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> One of the reasons I haven't looked into making a titanium watch is the lightness. The original Seiko Samurai, a design which I love, was titanium, but I could never warm up to it in person. It just feels too light. I was excited to see Seiko re-issue them in steel, until I saw the new design (meh, not as good as the original).
> 
> Regarding the "weight = quality" thing, I totally get it. There's something about an object which feel too light that prevents me, and likely many others, from feeling like it's "quality", regardless of what our logical minds tell us.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately this view on titanium seems to be quite widespread. In my opinion it's the ultimate watch material. I'm a very practical dude, so I value function first (no rule without exception, of course). As I see it, anything I need to carry on my body should be as light as possible. Titanium is also very resistant to corrosion and some say it's warmer to the touch than steel. It will often not be detected by airport metal detectors (I used to love that feature back when I was traveling more).
Most titanium alloys looks greyish and reflects less light than steel, which is both practical (for some activities) and looks awesome.
With so many great attributes. I'm surprised my hunt for a mid sized mechanical titanium diver is still unsuccessful.

I know you won't do a watch in a material you don't like, so this isn't a request, but more like a data point; there are people out there who prefer titanium, and the market is certainly not saturated.

Oh, and if you did make one, I wouldn't be surprised if it beat the crap out of anything out there ;-)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



aicolainen said:


> Unfortunately this view on titanium seems to be quite widespread. In my opinion it's the ultimate watch material. I'm a very practical dude, so I value function first (no rule without exception, of course). As I see it, anything I need to carry on my body should be as light as possible. Titanium is also very resistant to corrosion and some say it's warmer to the touch than steel. It will often not be detected by airport metal detectors (I used to love that feature back when I was traveling more).
> Most titanium alloys looks greyish and reflects less light than steel, which is both practical (for some activities) and looks awesome.
> With so many great attributes. I'm surprised my hunt for a mid sized mechanical titanium diver is still unsuccessful.
> 
> ...


It's all good.

I'm not saying I'd never make a titanium watch, or a bronze watch, for that matter.

If I had more resources, I'd make a titanium watch, a bronze watch, a GMT, a chrono, a ladies model, a lower priced quartz model, two or more size options on new models, etc.

There are many things people want me to do. I can't do all of them. My selection process is as much art as it is science. But, generally, the selection process is meant to distill all the ideas down to just those which have the most and/or clearest (easiest to see) upside potential with the least downside risk.

My general thoughts about titanium are essentially the same as my thoughts about bronze. Most people seem happy enough with steel. Some fewer number of people prefer bronze or titanium, and thus the choices for watches in those materials are more limited.

But there are choices, and until it becomes clear to me that the demand outweighs the supply, I'm not enthusiastic about investing my limited resources into adding to that already / apparently sufficient supply.

Why then, would I bother investigating other materials? Because I see the calculus as fundamentally different.

Titanium and bronze have clear trade-offs when compared to steel, and there's some history of market demand for each, which I can view as precedent. My goal is to offer a third way - a better choice, with less if any trade-off, and while the demand is unproven, if it exists at all (and I'm certain it does), it's entirely untapped/unmet by currently available offerings.

So, for me, it makes more sense to invest my energy into new materials research than into doing more of what others have already done, with varying degrees of success, just because some number of people hope I'd do something incrementally "better".

I want to do better, always, but incremental improvement doesn't get you a date with the prom queen.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

docvail said:


> (*If you're in the UK*, there's an orange prototype over there, circulating among a handful of Brits.)


Non-picture-taking, non-posting jerks, obviously.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

pb9610 said:


> Non-picture-taking, non-posting jerks, obviously.


IF..... I had one to trial, there would be a constant trickle of enabling fotos across all media......

New Jerk shape Tapatalk, photo shaped for total enabling.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

Ragl said:


> IF..... I had one to trial, there would be a constant trickle of enabling fotos across all media......


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

pb9610 said:


> Non-picture-taking, non-posting jerks, obviously.


I must be the only poor, out in the sticks Irishman who has never even seen let alone tried on any of Doc's watches, and yet have held off buying one. I think it's because they just keep getting better and better *L*b-)b-)*KING* with each new increment.

Glad to hear you've still got a few sub cases left, I almost bought a used one over the christmas break. Only trouble is the divil:roll: (Irish slang word for devil) ray is tempting me. Nice cushion case there in Mil6161 pics, I have a couple of 1970's Seikos with a similar shape to them and they are very comfortable to wear. 
I'm off now to check out TZ UK to see if there are any orange divils to be seen yet;-).

This is the best I could come up with so far https://www.facebook.com/chronopoli...0454821997991/120454658664674/?type=3&theater


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

pb9610 said:


> View attachment 12791007


Brilliant!! My compliments to your optician pb9610, glad that I don't need to make a spectacle of myself yet.......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

@Kit7, I suspect that if you pick up a Devil Ray now at pre-order pricing, you won't have any problem selling it later for your buy-price if you decide it's not for you. When it's retailing for $700 and the hype is up when it hits the street, I bet there will be plenty of fence sitters that would be happy to buy your watch at $125 off retail.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Just chillin









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

Urban gentry has a Nacken review up, looks like it's a keeper


----------



## Mike Kilo Niner (Jan 7, 2018)

Annnd... now I'm second-guessing which Nth sub I want again. That blue is really lovely.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mike Kilo Niner said:


> Annnd... now I'm second-guessing which Nth sub I want again. That blue is really lovely.


First post on the forum. Makes it in the official Janis Trading thread.

That's winning.

Welcome to the Thunderdome, MK9.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys - no screwing around now.

Watch Gauge has just 12 pieces left of the Nacken Modern Blue. The Modern Black is sold out. 

The 25-piece limited edition Nazario is down to just 4 pieces. We're never making more. Ever. I'm not even getting one.

Like I said, less than 180 NTH Subs kits remain. 

After the next pre-order, assuming we decide to assemble all of those last 180 pieces, that's it, unless and until we make more. But if we make more, I have to make 300, at a minimum, and it could be a while before I feel like there's enough demand to do that. I don't foresee any scenario in which we're making any more Subs before 2019, and it's more likely to be beyond 2019.

Those 12 Nacken Modern Blues that Watch Gauge has available, plus 5 more I asked my factory to whip up, 3 of which are going to Singapore, are likely to be the last Nacken Modern Blues which will be made, ever. 

I asked my factory to whip up 5 more of the Nacken Modern Black. Again, 3 of those are going to Singapore. After those are all sold, I think we're likely to be done with the Modern Black, forever.

I also asked my factory to whip up 5 pieces each of the Nacken Vintage Blue and Vintage Black. After those are sold, we're probably done with those two versions, forever.

I'm not putting any of those "extra" pieces I asked my factory to assemble up for pre-order. When they're assembled and delivered to me, we'll make them available for sale. 

You see where this is going, yes? 

You want a Nacken Modern Blue, or a Nazario? Your window of opportunity is rapidly closing. For the Modern Black and the two Vintage versions, the window is currently shut, but will open again, very briefly, in a few months.

Don't be the guy living under a rock, emailing me to ask about these models, months after they've sold out.

PS/EDIT - I typed all that because that Urban Gentry video was posted a few hours ago. 24 hours from now, it'll have 10k views. Say whatever you want about the guy and his videos, he has reach, and a lot of people who watch his videos will buy whatever he likes. 

He just said the Nacken was the best thing since all-day breakfast at McDonald's.

Do the math.


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

Mike Kilo Niner said:


> Annnd... now I'm second-guessing which Nth sub I want again. That blue is really lovely.


How on earth have you made it down this rabbit hole before your first post?!


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Now 7 Modern Blue (No Date) left.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

kit7 said:


> Urban gentry has a Nacken review up, looks like it's a keeper


A boatload of full-on approbation there from TGV - he even bought a Nacken for himself. Worth watching - even if the guy comes across as, well, you know - as his guided tour around the watch is first rate with lots of positive and informative content, think that I'll go watch it again.....

Cheers,

Alan

P.S. As Doc mentions up-thread, this guy gets a humongous amount of attention, 12,755 hits when I watched it - WoW!!


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

Am I on comission for all the sub orders for January?:think: Free delivery for my first order perhaps? :-x


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

kit7 said:


> Am I on comission for all the sub orders for January?:think: Free delivery for my first order perhaps? :-x


........form an orderly queue........|>

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Damn, I don't know I've heard TGV gush so much about a watch before. Those Nacken's are gonna be gone quick quick quick!


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

Which one of you asked him to do a side by side comparison with his Squaleeeeee? It wasn't me.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I dont get him saying snowflake hands and lack of divers extensions are the negatives wtf. That is a huge plus. Who needs a divers extension, its so unnecessary and it just adds bulk. Nacken is a perfectly designed watch, so excited i got my preorder in time for the black date version


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Meanwhile, I've re-installed the bracelet and have been wearing this everyday since it arrived about a week ago - in luuuurve........









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I dont get him saying snowflake hands and lack of divers extensions are the negatives wtf. That is a huge plus. Who needs a divers extension, its so unnecessary and it just adds bulk. Nacken is a perfectly designed watch, so excited i got my preorder in time for the black date version


I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

As soon as I saw the Nacken, my first thought was, "Pelagos Homage." TGV goes to great length explaining why it's not a direct copy or straight up homage, but it's somewhat disingenuous, in my opinion, to not acknowledge the very strong similarities, especially to the lay person, at first glance.

I also would prefer a diver's extension. I realize that most people who wear these watches don't actually dive with them, but some do and the extension is very much a nice thing to have. No way that Nacken is going over this glove without it...at least not on a bracelet.

I'm not saying that Doc needs to include a diver's extension, but I think it's a fair knock against a 300m dive watch.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Toonces said:


> I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you.
> 
> As soon as I saw the Nacken, my first thought was, "Pelagos Homage." TGV goes to great length explaining why it's not a direct copy or straight up homage, but it's somewhat disingenuous, in my opinion, to not acknowledge the very strong similarities, especially to the lay person, at first glance.
> 
> ...


I get what you are saying but here is my angle.
When I take watch in the water I put it on a NATO for safety, gives me piece of mind.
Drilled lugs make it an easy to swap bracelet for NATO.
Watch is 11mm thin so if you had a divers extension the clasp becomes much thicker and/or longer which offsets the balance with the watch head.
I wear my watches tight so that they don't slide or move but they still have to be comfortable therefore thick clasp annoys the heck out of me.
His alternative on snowflake hands was mercedes hands because this looks to much like Pelagos, that is a big WTF, because from that point of view, anything that has mercedes hands looks like a sub right away.
And you will find many more watches with mercedes hands.
I don't mean to argue just to expand on my point of view.
And there will always be people that the first thing they bring up is the topic of homages which is so annoying, you either like it or not, move on lol, others will not even notice your watch anyway so you wear it because you like it, not because Mr. expert TGV said it was a homage to Pelagos


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you.
> 
> As soon as I saw the Nacken, my first thought was, "Pelagos Homage." TGV goes to great length explaining why it's not a direct copy or straight up homage, but it's somewhat disingenuous, in my opinion, to not acknowledge the very strong similarities, especially to the lay person, at first glance.
> 
> ...


A bit of a detour into the weeds, here, but I'm up earlier than usual today...

When we (by "we", I usually mean Aaron, Rusty and I, but in this case, I mean the group of guys in my inner circle, particularly the guys who are also the die-hard Submariner fans, including some BSHT thread regulars) started working on the NTH Subs, we spent all our time looking at various vintage Subs from Rolex and Tudor.

We spent zero time looking at the Pelagos or Black Bay, or the modern Rolex references.

We started with the vintage versions of the Nacken. Hopefully we don't need to argue about whether those versions more closely resemble the vintage Tudor snowflake subs, or the modern Pelagos. We put all our effort into being very faithful to the vintage snowflake models.

The way I remember it, I was concerned that the faux-patina lume and the sandpaper dial of the vintage Nackens would be a turnoff for some, and so I wanted a basic white-on-black version, without any dial texture.

That was the Nacken Modern, and it was originally going to have the bare metal-framed hands, just like the other two.

When I revealed the prototypes, someone here on WUS suggested we make the hands white-framed. Yes, like the Pelagos, but the way I remember it, the suggestion didn't include that specific reference, it was just a suggestion, "the hands would look awesome with white-framed hands", or something like that.

Regardless, at that point in time, in my mind, the design process was done - we had prototypes in hand, and were getting ready to start pre-orders, followed by starting production. In that mindset, the influences were already established, and like I said above, the Pelagos really wasn't among them.

Changing the hands in a small way doesn't change the original intent or original inspiration. It doesn't change history. The history is what it is. We weren't looking at the Pelagos, at all.

Do the white-framed hands make it seem more like the Pelagos? I suppose. I'm not trying to argue that they don't.

But, the intent with all of the NTH Subs was to create one of three things, as an answer to one or the other question:

1. What would this vintage ________ look like, and be like, if it was still being made today, with modern materials and specs, but stylistically unchanged?

2. What would this vintage ________ look like, and be like, if the evolution of the model had taken a different course?

3. What would this vintage ________ look like, if I was in charge of the company that made it, and had access to more modern materials and capabilities we now have, with the same group of guys pi$$ing in my ear about what they like or don't like?

In my mind, none of those original 8 Subs is an homage to any modern, currently available model from Rolex or Tudor, regardless of what resemblances there may be, real or imagined, unlike the Amphion Dark Gilt, as an example, which pays homage to the Black Bay Black / Black Bay One.

If anyone wants to know my inspiration, all they have to do is ask, but no one can tell me what my team's inspiration was, in contradiction of what I know to be true.

As for the expansion clasp - it may be a nice-to-have on a dive watch, but it's a component that adds to the cost, and would have pushed the price up more. My goal was to keep things as affordable as possible.

It's not reasonable to expect more and more nice-to-haves without considering the price and value of what you're already getting, and expecting the price to remain unchanged (although, to be fair to TGV, I believe he said he'd have been willing to pay more for an expansion clasp, which is reasonable).

Not to mention the focus on thin - those expansion clasps are thick as hell (7mm) which is even more noticeable when you shrink the width of the clasp down to 18mm, and put it on a bracelet with 3mm thick links.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*As a reminder, 4. No sales posts or "Want to Buy / Trade" posts of any kind. All such posts will be immediately deleted. There are Sales Corners at WatchUSeek for this express purpose. If you have a special offer you would like to make directly to forum members, email the Moderator(s) first to discuss it. 

-Admin
*

Just sayin'...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FWIW on the above, about the Näcken... 

Sometimes I wish I'd left the hands alone. I like how the new hands look. I liked how the original hands look. But the old hands might have stirred less debate, and that's generally a good outcome. I wish I'd kept the original prototype with the old hands, but I think I let Jelliottz turn it into a Frankenmod. 

All this talk about the Pelagos connection or lack of it is needless argle-bargle. I see the resemblance, of course. I'm not blind. I may be sensitive about how my team and the work we do gets portrayed, but chalk it up as pride in both. 

They share a common source of inspiration, so it's unavoidable, just as it's unavoidable that comparisons will be made between any / all of my models and other brands' models, particularly when the inspiration is clear. And either way, I don't mind sharing my admiration for what those other companies produce. I'm a big Omega fan. So shoot me. 

I'm a product designer, not an artist. I don't fit in skinny jeans. I steal my ideas wherever I can, and do my best to make it all look clever in the execution. 

The Pelagos is a handsome watch. A bit big and chunky for my tastes, but I'm sure my wife would say the same about me. 

If someone likes to think of the Näcken as the poor man's (or smart man's, or thin-wristed man's) Pelagos, and they see that as a good thing, with no derision felt towards the people who like it, I'm happy to accept that state of things. 

It's better than being the foolish man's absurd expenditure to overcompensate for a "lack of personality". 


New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

All of these talks are very interesting. Do you consider writing blogs/journals/books? Maybe 50 years later from now, people will talk about how the NTH came to life, similar to how Rolex made their first Submariner


----------



## Siwash (Jun 10, 2013)

Jumping in unasked, I like the look of the Nacken, especially the blue one, love the size. Love the whited hands.

The real issue is one that will always go around and around. . . to what extent does a person feel comfortable wearing a watch that looks like another watch?

I've got contradictory impulses on this whole homage topic. I think I always WILL have contradictory impulses.

In the meantime, it's been well established that there is a vibrant market for homage watches. . . both the look-alike wannabes and the ones that honestly try to walk off a pace and get a tad design distinction.

FWIW, at a certain point, the good designs get handed around in the end. I'm wearing a simple Tissot with Roman numerals---who doesn't make something looking just like that, from Timex on up?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Forever8895 said:


> All of these talks are very interesting. Do you consider writing blogs/journals/books? Maybe 50 years later from now, people will talk about how the NTH came to life, similar to how Rolex made their first Submariner


In fifty years I'll be dead.

Please send money now.

New travel-sized Tapatalk is more discrete, and fits in your pocket without that embarrassing bulge.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

The thing is, a watch is gonna look like, well, a watch!!! 

They have been around a long time now in every combo of shape, material (including, er, wood - WTF!!), colour, size, detail and price. I - and probably you, am fascinated by the unending variety of hi-dez watches thrust at us via our screens on a daily basis, nearly every one of those watches will echo features of something that has gone before, it really can't be easy to come up with a totally new "recipe". 

However, some of those recipes are truly classic from the point of view of the total togetherness of the design, they are almost perfect and will always be in demand because of those cohesive design & style qualities that are just "right" and that's why we like them, my particular weakness is an Omega Speedmaster, they got that right first time, didn't they? To do it right again, you have to almost copy it and, well there's plenty of those out there. 

Thankfully, things do evolve and what we buy are the results of that evolution. I, for one, couldn't care less which company was first with, say, syringe hands, do they work stylistically on the dial of that watch? great, wrap it up, I'll take it now. Of course, the WIS watch-nerd in me might want to let you all know who did it first and why it only looks right on that watch dah de dah de dah, but that is so borrrrring.........

I wanna just wear a cool, top quality, on trend, very stylish watch that fits my wrist, if it displays a bit of attitude as well, jobsagoodun. I'm sure we all know who can inject that special attitude sauce into the mix and it really does show in the watches and it's part of why we are in the queue at the checkout, looking at you Mr. Vail, please don't ever let your standards drop.

These forums are a fantastic resource for all of us, whether bearer or wearer; if there is a story behind my new watch and some horological history attach too, my heart will truly be warmed. Reading Doc's - and others - WOTs are truly educational and much more important, sometimes very entertaining, but getting hung-up on deep-dive WISery just gets a bit tedious at times, I really do admire Doc's patience with explaining the same point for the third or fourth time.

Looking at my watch, time is moving on, so, enough already, who's next?

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

I, for one, am very happy you went with the white framed hands. 
It's how I want a modern tool watch to look, and as such I think it's very faithful to your "how would XXXX look today" approach. 

I too, think the Pelagos is a great watch design (maybe because that too is an evelution of the original subs?). However, I didn't buy the Näcken because its a poor, thin wristed mans Pelagos. As I see it, it's just a different approach to the same challenge. The sum of Doc's design choices make the Näcken a better watch for me, even if we keep the price out of the equation, so I say his design stands on its own.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk


----------



## Siwash (Jun 10, 2013)

aicolainen said:


> I, for one, am very happy you went with the white framed hands.
> It's how I want a modern tool watch to look, and as such I think it's very faithful to your "how would XXXX look today" approach.
> 
> I too, think the Pelagos is a great watch design (maybe because that too is an evelution of the original subs?). However, I didn't buy the Näcken because its a poor, thin wristed mans Pelagos. As I see it, it's just a different approach to the same challenge. The sum of Doc's design choices make the Näcken a better watch for me, even if we keep the price out of the equation, so I say his design stands on its own.
> ...


I don't think of 40mm as a small watch at all. I'm just a guy with average wrists. Perhaps I should view the divers' watch market as oriented only to the smaller percentage of men with very large wrists. I know I've passed up watches as TDB.

Even if you're a step larger than the average wrist, a 40mm feels really nice on the wrist.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I like how TGV politely responds to the trolls in his comments.


----------



## RLextherobot (Jan 10, 2017)

Siwash said:


> I don't think of 40mm as a small watch at all. I'm just a guy with average wrists. Perhaps I should view the divers' watch market as oriented only to the smaller percentage of men with very large wrists. I know I've passed up watches as TDB.
> 
> Even if you're a step larger than the average wrist, a 40mm feels really nice on the wrist.


I have nearly 8 inch wrists and am perfectly comfortable with anything between 39-45mm. I suspect I might even be happy to go smaller (I love the look of various 36mm pieces) but haven't yet had the opportunity to try.


----------



## Siwash (Jun 10, 2013)

RLextherobot said:


> I have nearly 8 inch wrists and am perfectly comfortable with anything between 39-45mm. I suspect I might even be happy to go smaller (I love the look of various 36mm pieces) but haven't yet had the opportunity to try.


There's a Gigandet chronolo at 46mm I'd love to have, along with the Bulova moon watch, but TDB for comfortable use for me. YMMV.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Just to be clear, my point is simply that it is entirely appropriate for TGV to note the similarity to the Pelagos. I'm not suggesting anything more than that.

And, if adding a diver's extension would add cost or somehow unbalance the bracelet, then obviously I'd prefer the bracelet we got. In all fairness, the watch comes with a rubber strap that works quite well with a wetsuit. 

One last thing. I think my first post in this thread was about the Devil Ray. What convinced me to pre-purchase it was the excellent blog on Doc's website that described the thought process behind the design. I wasn't sure I really liked the DR at first glance, but after reading that blog I found myself in love with the watch. Obviously it's probably not worthwhile to go back and do that for the subs, but I would love to read more behind-the-scenes stuff about the evolution of the new designs when they are announced.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> I like how TGV politely responds to the trolls in his comments.


Indeed. It is very admirable, especially as I know I don't have anywhere near that degree of forbearance in me.

I'm more the "Ahma let you run your mouth another 10 seconds" type than the "thanks for the input" type.

Say what you want about him, he seems to be the consummate gentleman, and it's hard (at least for me) not to respect that about him.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Toonces said:


> One last thing. I think my first post in this thread was about the Devil Ray. What convinced me to pre-purchase it was the excellent blog on Doc's website that described the thought process behind the design. I wasn't sure I really liked the DR at first glance, but after reading that blog I found myself in love with the watch. Obviously it's probably not worthwhile to go back and do that for the subs, but I would love to read more behind-the-scenes stuff about the evolution of the new designs when they are announced.


That's what I said. I really love reading the story of the NTH designs, and I believe many people do, too.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Just to be clear, my point is simply that it is entirely appropriate for TGV to note the similarity to the Pelagos. I'm not suggesting anything more than that.
> 
> And, if adding a diver's extension would add cost or somehow unbalance the bracelet, then obviously I'd prefer the bracelet we got. In all fairness, the watch comes with a rubber strap that works quite well with a wetsuit.
> 
> One last thing. I think my first post in this thread was about the Devil Ray. What convinced me to pre-purchase it was the excellent blog on Doc's website that described the thought process behind the design. I wasn't sure I really liked the DR at first glance, but after reading that blog I found myself in love with the watch. Obviously it's probably not worthwhile to go back and do that for the subs, but I would love to read more behind-the-scenes stuff about the evolution of the new designs when they are announced.


No worries, my friend. I didn't take your earlier post as criticism or argument, and I hope my response didn't sound defensive.

If it wasn't obvious from my blog posts about the DevilRay - Aaron, Rusty and I work well together, at worst, and at best, we sometimes have a lot of fun.

As projects go, the DevilRay was fairly enjoyable. Aaron did most of the heavy lifting early on, which is what I pay him to do, but he got off to a strong start on that one, and I think we knew we were onto something good. That creates positive energy, and propels the process forward.

It's easier for me to stay focused on design when I like the direction we're going. When that happens, I'll make the time needed to force a project along, without being distracted.

I thought it was worthwhile to talk about what went on behind the scenes on that one, because we had fun, and I was proud of what we had. I had a moment of pure sadness the other day, when I realized the DevilRay might mark the creative peak of what we do. I don't know that we'll be able to top it.

It ain't always that way. Sometimes a new model can spend a year or more in limbo, being looked at or ignored for months at a time. I'm never un-enthusiastic about a new model, but some I love, and some I make because I know they'll sell and I have bills to pay.

Love makes for a better story than bills to pay, in my observation.

Aside from that - the Subs are, in fact, homages (and my only argument on that topic is that they shouldn't be dismissed as being "_just_ homages"). While we didn't just make a 1:1 copy of anything, and we did spend a good bit of time debating the nuances of the case, the dials, the colors, the handsets, etc - we didn't invent all those elements (Rusty did invent the case, albeit with cues from Rolex/Tudor, and me cracking the whip constantly).

Telling a story about a bunch of watch geeks arguing crown-guards versus no crown-guards sounds like writing the warning label for a bottle of cough syrup. Not fun for me, not fun for you.

Would telling of my furious emails to the factory about how they took two months to butcher our case design be worth reading? I dunno, but I'd rather tell stories about drinking in Hong Kong with the Wolf Pack, if I only have your attention for so long, before you get bored and go see what's on TV.

(I swear to God, everything I've said about what went on in Hong Kong is exactly what happened. The only thing I exaggerated was Sujain's comment about Rugby versus Aussie rules football. Everything else was an honest accounting.)

I'm not holding out on you guys. Trust me that some stories just aren't worth telling.


----------



## Mike Kilo Niner (Jan 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> First post on the forum. Makes it in the official Janis Trading thread.
> 
> That's winning.
> 
> Welcome to the Thunderdome, MK9.


Yeah I've been an on-again, off-again lurker on WUS for a couple of years after a co-worker showed me his small collection of inexpensive Seiko divers. "Wait, Theo... why isn't the second hand ticking..." And down the rabbit hole I plunged. As much as I enjoy my SKX007, the non-hacking movement and it's tall, square profile catching on my shirtsleeve at work got me searching for "slim diver." Guess where I landed?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Toonces said:


> Just to be clear, my point is simply that it is entirely appropriate for TGV to note the similarity to the Pelagos. I'm not suggesting anything more than that.
> 
> And, if adding a diver's extension would add cost or somehow unbalance the bracelet, then obviously I'd prefer the bracelet we got. In all fairness, the watch comes with a rubber strap that works quite well with a wetsuit.
> 
> One last thing. I think my first post in this thread was about the Devil Ray. What convinced me to pre-purchase it was the excellent blog on Doc's website that described the thought process behind the design. I wasn't sure I really liked the DR at first glance, but after reading that blog I found myself in love with the watch. Obviously it's probably not worthwhile to go back and do that for the subs, but I would love to read more behind-the-scenes stuff about the evolution of the new designs when they are announced.


#metoo on the Devil Ray!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

A few pics needed









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Black Prototype has landed. Seriously cool diver, folks. And it looks even better on the wrist than in pics.










And the lume? It's thermonuclear!










If you're still on the fence, jump off and pull the trigger. You won't be disappointed if you do - but you may be if you don't.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seems legit...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Seems legit...
> 
> View attachment 12798813


If anyone could break him I knew it would be you.


----------



## John Price (Feb 21, 2011)

And just what did you say???? (wink)


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Wow, what did I miss?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Wow, what did I miss?


Nothing, really, unless you were unaware this sort of thing happens from time to time.

This sort of thing being random internet trolls sending me nice little nasty-grams through the contact page on my website.

Nothing attracts haters like consistently winning.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> Nothing, really, unless you were unaware this sort of thing happens from time to time.
> 
> This sort of thing being random internet trolls sending me nice little nasty-grams through the contact page on my website.
> 
> Nothing attracts haters like consistently winning.


Must be all that Tiger Blood running through your veins.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Phannum Phriday










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> Phannum Phriday
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't have any interest in this watch until I saw it on SS. Is that a cerb bracelet you have attached to it?


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Keeper of Time said:


> I didn't have any interest in this watch until I saw it on SS. Is that a cerb bracelet you have attached to it?


Yes it is. I actually bought both together as I only wear watches on bracelets. I think they work well together and the watch is super comfortable to wear due to the flat case back and sloped lugs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

And the lume shot of my Phantom. The camera does not do justice to the reality of the way the domed crystal bends the light and gives a wonderful 3D effect!!!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Really looking forward to the impending doc post saying "thats it, all subs sold out" and the flurry of posts from other people all saying "whaaa waiiiit I just wanted to buy tomorrow/nextweek/in-a-fortnight". 

After all, that's how it usually goes, innit? :roll:


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Okay, so the weekend is here and The Commander has arisen to accompany me thro' the various events. If there is a watch that can make me smile when I look at it, this is the one - best check the time for some more grin inducement:









Plus another glass of Barolo of course, to lubricate proceedings, luvvit!!, have a great weekend everyone.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

My Spectre II will be living at the PO for the next three days thanks to the Holiday because it was on the truck but somehow did not get delivered with the rest of our mail. If it only shipped one day earlier. I'm never buying another LH/NTH watch again!


----------



## Kulprit (Oct 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Related to the above...I see Chris (Mil6161) got the turquoise DevilRay prototype from Jason (SteamJ), and has been posting pics, here and in other threads. (Nice pics, Chris, thank you, and glad you like it.)
> 
> I've been doing my damnedest to avoid getting sucked into more online debates about pricing vs quality vs "heritage" (and all the other intangibles associated with established/luxury brands, real or imagined). This is part of the reason I've avoided posting in any threads discussing my watches, with this one being the obvious exception.
> 
> ...


I hope we don't ever see less of you around here. Even if I didn't own any of your watches, your posts are among the most entertaining here and I appreciate your practical, reasonable approach to this world of ours. Internet forums bring all the window-lickers out of the woodwork and it's nice having someone around to bring a little common sense back into the discussion. I'm more than happy to do it, but who the hell am I? I don't own a watch brand.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Bah! I missed Fannum Phrydae, but I DID wear my Phantom GR this week.

Switched the 22mm straight Panatime deployant (Breitling style) strap for, of all things,
a 22/18mm tapered tan & black Fossil with QR bars.

Winner!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

DevilRay on a schmato - yea, that works!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Kulprit said:


> I hope we don't ever see less of you around here. Even if I didn't own any of your watches, your posts are among the most entertaining here and I appreciate your practical, reasonable approach to this world of ours. Internet forums bring all the window-lickers out of the woodwork and it's nice having someone around to bring a little common sense back into the discussion. I'm more than happy to do it, but who the hell am I? I don't own a watch brand.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Well, in that case...

H. Moser & Cie might be the meteor which kills the luxury brand dinosaurs. - Janis Trading Company


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Diggin' that black DR on the NATO. I'll bet the turquoise will look really good on a dark gray, desert tan, or even a turquoise NATO. I don't think I could pull off the latter, but it might look good on the right wrist.


----------



## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> In fifty years I'll be dead.
> 
> Please send money now.


I've been reading up on the Devil Ray and enjoying the recent wrist shots of the prototypes hitting the forum. I just ordered 2 - a turquoise and an orange. I love the watches but I wanted you to know that what ultimately sold me is your well-thought out responses in this thread and others. You seem a stand-up dude. Respect and money sent.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tanker G1 said:


> I've been reading up on the Devil Ray and enjoying the recent wrist shots of the prototypes hitting the forum. I just ordered 2 - a turquoise and an orange. I love the watches but I wanted you to know that what ultimately sold me is your well-thought out responses in this thread and others. You seem a stand-up dude. Respect and money sent.


Thanks for your business, Brian!

I am a stand-up dude, usually, but it's well past time I ate dinner, and became a lay-on-the-couch-watching-TV dude.


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

Keeper of Time said:


> My Spectre II will be living at the PO for the next three days thanks to the Holiday because it was on the truck but somehow did not get delivered with the rest of our mail. If it only shipped one day earlier. I'm never buying another LH/NTH watch again!


Can't wait for mine to arrive!!
There weren't many pictures shared here though (guess this one wasn't part of a tour... )


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Well, in that case...
> 
> H. Moser & Cie might be the meteor which kills the luxury brand dinosaurs. - Janis Trading Company


Spotted - you've got their plums in the cross hairs.

It has been fairly obvious for sometime that the Swiss watch industry will eventually eat itself, looks like the feast has begun, the entree is a cheese watch.......

As a succinct commentary on the present state of play with things over in Switzerland, you have all points covered there, HMC have decided to light the fuse, will it blow The Emperor's New Clothes off? one likes to think so as the timing is so right, is this the Swiss Watch Black Swan?

"Nothing goes out of fashion quicker than fashion", I'm with Coco on this one and the "fashion" that the high-end Swiss manufacturers have created has been seen at last for what it truly is, monumentally vulgar and fake, just like the cheap and nasty copies of their products that flow out of Asia.

The next phase will be interesting, there will be changes, that's inevitable; one change that would be smile inducing would be if the true "value" of all of those "exclusive" watches out there is finally recognised and prices begin an inexorable slide down to reality levels; in some ways, those prices over at JomaShop are an indicator.

An excellent and finely observed write up Chris, many thanks for sharing.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

Toonces said:


> @Kit7, I suspect that if you pick up a Devil Ray now at pre-order pricing, you won't have any problem selling it later for your buy-price if you decide it's not for you. When it's retailing for $700 and the hype is up when it hits the street, I bet there will be plenty of fence sitters that would be happy to buy your watch at $125 off retail.


I like the way you are thinking but I wouldn't be able to sell it.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Alas, it's unlikely that moser will manage to upset anything. All this is only relevant to the vanishingly small fraction that pays attention to watch blogs. The amount of people in the general public receiving only the swiss watch industry advertising is not exposed to moser's thing..

If something is to shake up and bring down the out-of-nowhere swiss watch inlation, it has to be a globally big thing with exposure way beyond the niche watch media. That said, it would be *extremely nice* if all the watch blogs reporting on this moser thing would, you know, stop hyping up all the brand-caused nonsense that moser is calling out.

Either way... the only thing that could pop this bubble of inflated, unjustified "automatic swiss watches are the best thing because _heritage and soul and crap_" is, well, the swiss watch industry themselves. Thankfully - looks like they're well on the way.

That said..
What the heck is going on with the watch industry, like, globally? Why is everything so regressive?

We have the swiss/german watch industry. They're rehashing old designs, making old technologies, and covering up lack of any innovation with "Superlative Chronometer" and "Swiss Made" etc.

There's the japanese guys. Casio is stuck doing they g-shock thing, a niche that does not appear to evolve any sense of reasonable design. Citizen has this awesome unnoticeable-solar-panel technology, but their designs frankly suck 99% of the time. Seiko is doing old-tech like the swiss (minus 'swiss made' hype and at lower prices, but also without essentials like sapphire glass and properly aligned bezels/dial parts), again, with large majority of old-school design retreads.

The chinese factories are an interesting factor. On the upside - they make microbrands possible, which frankly might be the better (design+features)/price option - but by necessity micros are forced to stick to old technology too - so only innovation comes in design form. Native chinese brands are... well, you know the sh** seagull does wrt. designing or ensuring consistent quality.

Then there's the fashion brands - slapping big-money names on minimally functional watches - they sure ain't going to innovate squat.

Out of all these players, nobody has both _ability _and _willingness _to actually evolve watch designs AND watch technology forwards. And the outsiders trying to do something - the IT companies like apple - are blowing it a little bit by not having a good goal to work towards.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

docvail said:


> Well, in that case...
> 
> H. Moser & Cie might be the meteor which kills the luxury brand dinosaurs. - Janis Trading Company


Reminds me of this article, https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/31/arts/sfmoma-glasses-prank.html


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I'm not suggesting that Moser will singlehandedly bring about real change, or cause the ivory towers to crumble.

What I know is that what I and many others say doesn't matter to the entrenched establishment, because we're outsiders, outside their bubble, and if they even heard us, they'd pay us no mind.

The market clearly isn't enough to force change.

It seems to me that most of the industry is like the passengers in a capsized ocean liner, from that old movie, "The Poseidon Adventure", convinced their situation isn't as bad as it is, and they should just sit tight and wait for it to improve. Moser is like Gene Hackman, trying to get people to understand their predicament, and act, before it's too late.

Moser has a better chance of sparking change than all the microbrands and watch geeks combined, which are like the fires and flooding inside the ship, a real danger, but denying their threat is easier than facing it.

It's tempting to think market forces would bring about change, but I'd bet all my money that the industry craters before that happens, just like the room fills with water before most of the passengers realize Hackman was right. Spoiler alert - they all die, from a combination of denial, procrastination, and ultimately, drowning.

The industry is addicted to habits of their own making and perpetuation. It won't easily admit reality and accept the cure.

Hackman was able to convince a few to fight for their own survival. Given more time, he might have saved more. Similarly, I think most of the luxury brands are doomed, but the industry itself might survive, and thrive. The more Moser's message is heard, the more people accept it, and the faster that happens, the better the industry's prospects become.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Siwash (Jun 10, 2013)

I like that black Devil Ray. Just intuitive gut like.

Seeing it, and knowing it's a doc product, I was wondering whether it was also an homage to some other watch. . . and it makes sense to me to think that "if I'm wondering if it's an homage, then most people will know nothing whatever about it." I mean by this that the Average Guy in the Street (AGS) can recognize watches that look like Rolex. . .and perhaps Omega. I'm more an AGS, and know nothing of Doxa (other than having seen some old ones on eBay). . . so I really did not know the watch inspiration for the Devil Ray.

I can assume that if I buy a Devil Ray, then the AGS also won't know I"m wearing an homage. (Yes, to be sure this has some differences). So MY homage reservation there absolutely disappears: I'm not trying to look like something I'm not, to other people.

Not keen on having people think I'm trying to fake them out. As far as I know, Doxa was a 60s brand, perhaps 70s era, that's not around or not very present today.


----------



## RLextherobot (Jan 10, 2017)

Great read Doc, I admit that I didn't read much into the HMC ad beyond "Haha what a hideous watch" but it certainly does play as satire given context. 

I am genuinely curious about what the next few years brings and whether what happens in the luxury realm impacts those of us down here in the affordables realm. It's nice to fantasize that soon everyone will be able to own a "real Swiss luxury watch" because the pricing will adjust to suit the market but honestly from what I've read it seems like the Swiss brands would rather go down in flames than change how they do business.

Interesting times.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If anyone here owns a Tudor Ranger with 22mm lugs, and also owns either a Cerberus or an Orthos, and feels like doing a fellow WIS a favor, it would be awesome if you'd see whether or not the Cerberus or ORthos end-link can be fitted to the Tudor's case. 

We're not looking for a perfect match necessarily, just that the lug-holes line up with the hole through the link, and the lip on the link doesn't stop the link from sitting flush with the case.

If you could quote this post in your reply, so I see an alert about it, and can let our fellow comrade know, I'd sincerely appreciate it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RLextherobot said:


> Great read Doc, I admit that I didn't read much into the HMC ad beyond "Haha what a hideous watch" but it certainly does play as satire given context.
> 
> I am genuinely curious about what the next few years brings and whether what happens in the luxury realm impacts those of us down here in the affordables realm. It's nice to fantasize that soon everyone will be able to own a "real Swiss luxury watch" because the pricing will adjust to suit the market but honestly from what I've read it seems like the Swiss brands would rather go down in flames than change how they do business.
> 
> ...


I don't have much of a personal axe to grind, really. I think we'd all like to see more clarity/transparency regarding the "Swiss Made" rules.

My assumption is that most or all of the parts in affordable "Swiss Made" watches are made in Asia, and shipped to Switzerland for assembly. I'm fine with that, if that's what's being done, and I see value in having assembly done in Switzerland, considering the alternative, but it would be nice if they could write a set of rules with language clear enough to avoid debate on the topic.

Assuming they did, I don't see that very much would change in my price range. Maybe a $600 "Swiss" Hamilton becomes a $500 "Swiss" Hamilton, but costs put a floor under how low prices can go. If they became $300 "Swiss ASSEMBLED" Hamiltons, I think people would intuitively understand the true nature of what they'd be getting, and there'd be less illusion regarding quality.

I think the real impact will be felt within the next tier up, the $1,000-$10,000 price range, where the bulk of the money and energy is being spent to perpetuate the myths about horology and illusion of luxury. I think a lot of companies would benefit from a more realistic approach to their pricing. If Eterna, Fortis, Oris and the like are going to end up blowing models out on the gray market for $800, they should stop pricing them at $2,000 to start, and go for something more realistic, like $1200.

If that were to happen, I think it puts pressure on all brands to become realistic, which would hopefully make for a lot more affordability in the market.

That might seem bad for me, but I don't see it that way. The problem now isn't really too much competition per se, it's that the market has been shrunk, because of the incessant price-hikes from Swiss brands. If the products become more affordable for more people, that could re-energize interest in them, and grow the market.

Someone pointed out the seemingly hypocritical nature of Moser being the voice of the revolution, given their position and pricing, but I think we have to recognize that Moser isn't among the brands pumping out a bazillion new pieces each year, hiring celebrities or athletes as their brand ambassadors, or contribution much to the "beautiful people" narrative the rest of the luxury brands trade on.

I have no idea what a Moser watch SHOULD cost, but I reckon their prices are what they are because connoisseurs value them, as opposed to all the people who view Hublot as haute horology.

Only as a supporting anecdote - I used to watch a lot of poker on TV. I don't much anymore, but I recently stopped flipping through the channels to watch a bit of the World Poker Tour.

Sure enough, Hublot is now a sponsor, meaning they have a special "Limited Edition" model awarded to tournament winners, and of course there was lots of footage of the lavish, celebrity-studded cocktail party hosted by Hublot the night before the tournament, cut with images of the watches on display at the event, each one uglier than the last.

I don't hate Hublot. I've seen a few which were mesmerizing in their beauty, but that's not the brand's stock in trade, nor is it the sort of thing they promote to the unwashed masses.

What the hell does poker have to do with watches? Racing, I get. Aviation, I get. Even a James Bond movie tie-in, I get. But poker? Sure, the pros may live like ballers, but what's the point of advertising Hublot on the World Poker Tour, where the average viewer is probably a guy like me, who'd never buy a Hublot in a million years?

There are barely enough people who can afford a Tag or an Omega, and are willing to convince themselves they're Mario Andretti behind the wheel, or James Bond in a suit. Few people have an idealized self-image which includes whatever the hell Hublot expects us to imagine. And we don't know what that is, because even Hublot doesn't know, or if they do, they haven't told us (it can't be "you're Floyd Mayweather, or pro poker player", can it?).

That's perfectly typical of what the brands are doing. It shows they're completely out of touch. They'll give free watches to people who can easily buy them, as a means of promoting the watches to people who can't afford them, and wonder why the needle doesn't move.

It's not like cars. Most people NEED a car, and since we NEED them, we find ways to justify buying more than what we need, turning from a $40,000 Honda to a $60,000 BMW. But no one NEEDS an ugly/fancy wrist-brick just to know the time, not when they cost tens of thousands of dollars.

That's what I'm hoping will change. When a good and "serious" (as opposed to silly) watch is unaffordable for most people, society's standards and expectations adapt. If a good and serious watch was affordable for more people, I think society would begin to re-adopt the expectation that owning and wearing a serious watch is just part of being an adult male and having your $hlt together, like not wearing sneakers with a suit, and knowing how to tie a necktie.


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

It's almost the same in the knife market, but instead of Swiss made, it's US made vs Chinese made. This reviewer looks at knives mostly, but there is a few watch reviews there too, 



 I'm sure there are other products too.
Personally a Chinese knife is fine, it's just an everyday tool, but a watch is still a bit of a luxury. I own a few vintage Swiss watches, but can't see myself buying a Swiss (made) watch for over $1000 anytime soon. 
One thing I noticed since I started wearing a watch again is that I leave the phone in my pocket unless it rings, it could be 6pm before I see a text message that was sent that morning. To me a good watch is _almost_ a piece of art, a knife is just a tool. But I think recently more Irish men are wearing a watch again, mostly Seikos though. I think I've seen one Omega and one Rolex in the wild in the last 3 years.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Blah blah blah WoT... Boom! Spectre II has landed.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Siwash (Jun 10, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> Blah blah blah WoT... Boom! Spectre II has landed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ouch! That's seriously good!


----------



## Siwash (Jun 10, 2013)

It's interesting to me that Rolex blows so much on advertising, and I suppose the balance is like this: the rich people turned off by the commercialism are more than made up for by all the middle class strivers' purchases.

I'm a tennis player, and have seen Rolex advertising all over since the 1970s. Now its on billboards on the expressway. In Connecticut, Greenwich's downtown has Rolex clock on posts for downtown infrastructure. Just overkill.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I have a Rolex 16760. I love the look and feel, the weight, the bracelet, pretty much everything about the watch. It’s 30 years old. Keeps virtually perfect time if I orient the crown up or down over various nights of the week. I have a few other watches like a Doxa, Borealis, a few digitals I use as beaters at work. I now have two NTH watches on order. The Rolex is by far my favorite. I’d love a watch to win that place from the Rolex. Maybe to settle it in my mind that I don’t love the Rolex because of cost or prestige. Kind of stupid but our minds can play tricks on us.


----------



## RLextherobot (Jan 10, 2017)

Nikita70 said:


> I have a Rolex 16760. I love the look and feel, the weight, the bracelet, pretty much everything about the watch. It's 30 years old. Keeps virtually perfect time if I orient the crown up or down over various nights of the week. I have a few other watches like a Doxa, Borealis, a few digitals I use as beaters at work. I now have two NTH watches on order. The Rolex is by far my favorite. I'd love a watch to win that place from the Rolex. Maybe to settle it in my mind that I don't love the Rolex because of cost or prestige. Kind of stupid but our minds can play tricks on us.


That's pretty interesting. I admit fully that the thought of "Of course everyone says they love their Rolex, if I paid that much for one I'd make a point of saying I loved it too" has crossed my mind. I had no idea actual owners of Rollies had their own doubts.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

RLextherobot said:


> That's pretty interesting. I admit fully that the thought of "Of course everyone says they love their Rolex, if I paid that much for one I'd make a point of saying I loved it too" has crossed my mind. I had no idea actual owners of Rollies had their own doubts.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I love my DSSD - because it was a gift from my wife. Looking back on it, I'd rather have a Nacken and the additional $13.5k. The Rolex can take a beating (and it has) but there's also something in my mind going "hey idiot, you paid $14k for that thing you're beating up, don't break it" that I don't have with other tool watches that "were meant to take a beating." It's a weird double-standard - even though the cost is way higher, it's easier to replace a DSSD than the Nacken due to production. In a rational mind, scarcity should play a role (and it does; I'm sure someone would sell me their Nacken for $10k), but it seems to play a reduced one. And I understand it could be a substitute-good effect, but it still seems off.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Siwash (Jun 10, 2013)

I can entirely appreciate Disneydave's post above: I bought antique furniture for myself since I didn't want that, "damn, first nick!" pain. . . and I'm apprehensive about buying a new bike this summer for the same reason, "ouch! first scratch!"

Is it obsessive compulsive?


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Gawwd, I wish I'd gotten in on one of these. This will end up being my "one that got away" for 2018.



rpm1974 said:


> Blah blah blah WoT... Boom! Spectre II has landed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

I spent the last 2 weeks traveling internationally. I took only one watch with me - the Antilles. It performed admirably. I love that watch! It's designed and executed superbly. It's remarkably versatile and very convenient when traveling. And I never wished that I'd taken another watch with me, which says something, given that my Omega and Damasko were at home resting.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> I love my DSSD - because it was a gift from my wife. Looking back on it, I'd rather have a Nacken and the additional $13.5k. The Rolex can take a beating (and it has) but there's also something in my mind going "hey idiot, you paid $14k for that thing you're beating up, don't break it" that I don't have with other tool watches that "were meant to take a beating." It's a weird double-standard - even though the cost is way higher, it's easier to replace a DSSD than the Nacken due to production. In a rational mind, scarcity should play a role (and it does; I'm sure someone would sell me their Nacken for $10k), but it seems to play a reduced one. And I understand it could be a substitute-good effect, but it still seems off.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Nope, I get it.

I've spent "a lot" of money on sunglasses - twice. Both times, I ended up losing them, not that long after I bought them. I learned my lesson, and from then on, I only bought cheap sunglasses at drug stores, $20 el-cheapos, almost exclusively (I now have prescription sunglasses, which aren't cheap, so...wish me luck with those).

I still try to take care of the el-cheapos, not because I'm worried about a $20 investment, but because I like them, and don't feel like having to schlep to the store to find another pair, nor do I like pissing away $20. If I dropped $20 between my car and my house, I'd go out and look for it. I ain't that rich.

If I lose them, or when they break, or get scratched, or whatever, I may not be able to replace them with an identical pair, but with so many $20 sunglasses to choose from, it's not hard to find another pair I like well enough.

I think it's the same with so-called "affordable" watches. For most people, $500-$600 isn't exactly chump-change for a watch, but if you lose one, or somehow destroy it, you're not going to be anywhere near as upset as you'd be if it were $10k-$15k, and even if the watch is now sold out, there's the used market, and even if you can't find another, there are plenty of other $500-$600 watches you'll like.

By the same token, life's short. You can't take it with you. I don't get buying anything and not using it, no matter what it is or what it costs.

About 10 years back, I was watching a lot of those shows about guys who buy and fix up old cars, and for a minute, I got it into my head that I wanted to buy a late-80's Ferrari 328, the nearly-identical-looking successor to the 308 Tom Sellek drove in "Magnum, PI". At that time, you could find reasonably low-mileage examples for under $50k, sometimes just under $30k. I wanted it as my daily driver.

Yes, I know, a 20-year-old, expensive to fix, temperamental Italian sports car with very few amenities doesn't seem like a good daily driver for a married guy with two kids and a dog, especially with the horrible roads here in PA, and our weather.

I didn't buy one, for those and other reasons, but I figured for $30k-$50k, I'd rather own a 328 with low miles than a new or recently used, soulless, ubiquitous, electronic-gizmo-heavy sedan from a luxury brand, even though the "entry-level" models from those brands will outperform the 328.

Like a lot of Rolexes, the 328's have actually gone up in value - prices have doubled in the ten years since. Even a beat-to-hell 30 year old Rolex is worth something to someone, just like my heavily-driven 30-year old Ferrari would still hold some decent residual value. In the meantime, I'd have checked an item of my bucket-list. In retrospect, there wasn't much downside.

I like to think of the NTH Subs as sort of like that old Ferrari. Not that I'm expecting them to go up in value, or be worth selling in beat-to-hell condition far into the future, but you can buy 10 of them for what a new Rolex Submariner or vintage snowflake sub will cost you (or 6 for what a Pelagos will cost you, or 5 for what a Black Bay will cost you), and I think they can give you the same feeling as wearing a 30-50 year old Rolex or Tudor, but without the gnawing / nagging feeling of guilt that often comes when you wear a "potentially valuable collectible", the same way I don't think I would have felt any guilt driving a Ferrari if it only cost me $30k, as opposed to driving some mid-six-figure show car.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Gawwd, I wish I'd gotten in on one of these. This will end up being my "one that got away" for 2018.


I'll likely have up to 10 pieces available, none of which would be in perfect/new condition. We had 5 pieces made up as samples, and I think we had another 5 with some very minor blemishes on the case.

My plan is to see what's what once the rest are assembled and shipped, then put those "scratch-n-dent" pieces up for sale.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Mint Azores today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Iliyan said:


> I spent the last 2 weeks traveling internationally. I took only one watch with me - the Antilles. It performed admirably. I love that watch! It's designed and executed superbly. It's remarkably versatile and very convenient when traveling. And I never wished that I'd taken another watch with me, which says something, given that my Omega and Damasko were at home resting.


12 hour bezels are perfect for international traveling. You can leave the hands set for home (so you don't wake up the family when you call), and spin the bezel for local time. I almost bought a GMT watch, and much prefer the simpler bezel set-up.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I'll likely have up to 10 pieces available, none of which would be in perfect/new condition. We had 5 pieces made up as samples, and I think we had another 5 with some very minor blemishes on the case.
> 
> My plan is to see what's what once the rest are assembled and shipped, then put those "scratch-n-dent" pieces up for sale.


Sooo, can I get on a list of some kind for one of these? Gently worn samples and/or new with small scuffs on the case are something I can cope with. Very interested if you have one with a blue dial.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Sooo, can I get on a list of some kind for one of these? Gently worn samples and/or new with small scuffs on the case are something I can cope with. Very interested if you have one with a blue dial.


I don't keep lists, at least not with names of people who express interest in a watch.

If you're interested, shoot me an email through my website, and I'll let you know what I have available right now, and I'll figure out a reasonable price.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I don't keep lists, at least not with names of people who express interest in a watch.
> 
> If you're interested, shoot me an email through my website, and I'll let you know what I have available right now, and I'll figure out a reasonable price.


Message sent through your support page. Thanks!


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

rpm1974 said:


> Blah blah blah WoT... Boom! Spectre II has landed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seriously, I keep coming back to this pic like:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Seriously, I keep coming back to this pic like:
> 
> View attachment 12806979


Another one posted to Facebook - blue no date with yellow seconds hand.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Another one posted to Facebook - blue no date with yellow seconds hand.


Guess I didn't realize that there was a variation of these with a date.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Daylight lume!!!!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Message sent through your support page. Thanks!


I'm not seeing your message.

The last contact page submission was another "social media influencer" guy trying to swing a free DevilRay or Nacken, in exchange for making me as huge as Hasselhoff on German YouTube.

If my mind-killing powers are any better than they were last week (I've been practicing), he should at least have diarrhea by now.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Guess I didn't realize that there was a variation of these with a date.


Yep, date window at 3, with white date wheel.

Date version below, with orange seconds hand. The yellow and orange are hard to tell apart, due to being so thin, and the orange being lighter than expected.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

rpm1974 said:


> Black Prototype has landed. Seriously cool diver, folks. And it looks even better on the wrist than in pics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's the one I've been waiting to see! Love it! Looks so much better than the pics on Janis (no offense, but those pics suck) and now the pre order price went up! Grrrrr

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Objects on website will appear better in real life.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I'm not seeing your message.
> 
> The last contact page submission was another "social media influencer" guy trying to swing a free DevilRay or Nacken, in exchange for making me as huge as Hasselhoff on German YouTube.
> 
> If my mind-killing powers are any better than they were last week (I've been practicing), he should at least have diarrhea by now.


Second attempt sent. Let me know if you get it.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Tonight we ride









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Second attempt sent. Let me know if you get it.


I did, and I sent a reply.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Scrolled through the last 20-30 pages or so to catch up and wanted to express my congratulations on the YouTube feature and the whole watchgauge thing. And the moser references. And the WOTs. 

I was on the fence between the näcken modern and vintage blue. I took the vintage because of the s/s framed hands. I would've taken the modernblue if it's hands would've been framed s/s. But I think it distinguishes the two very well. 

There was a Franken-NTH somewhere with skeletonized snowflake hands - anyone have a pic of that? I thought it looked crazy good. Not suggesting anything at all here  

Congrats again, man! 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Scrolled through the last 20-30 pages or so to catch up and wanted to express my congratulations on the YouTube feature and the whole watchgauge thing. And the moser references. And the WOTs.
> 
> I was on the fence between the näcken modern and vintage blue. I took the vintage because of the s/s framed hands. I would've taken the modernblue if it's hands would've been framed s/s. But I think it distinguishes the two very well.
> 
> ...


Cheers, mate!

The only skeletonized snowflake hands NTH I'm aware of is the Santa Fe that @HWA modified with said hands. Maybe he'll post some pics.

The "Santa Flake" I had whipped up had a set of blacked-out enamel snowflake hands on a slightly different dial, inside an Oberon case.

RE - Moser - I'd forgotten about it, but Victor Marks (regular here, blogger for ABTW and Wrist Watch Review, and host of the Hourtime Podcast) reminded me about the "Swiss Alp" watch, revealed in January 2016.






At the time, it seemed like an obvious jab at the Apple watch. But in retrospect, perhaps it's more accurate to think they were taking a jab at the industry's reaction to smartwatches in general, given that their over-arching intent seems to be trying to smack some sense into the Swiss luxury brands, and I can't fathom why else they'd bother to make fun of the Apple watch otherwise. I doubt Apple even noticed.

When taken together with the Swiss Cheese watch and the latest "Icons" watch, I've come to think of them as the "Moser Trilogy". I don't know if there were other goofs Moser pulled before, or if they plan more in the future, but if they are a trilogy, I think what Moser has done is profound, and it could be a decade or more before most people realize it.

My hunch is the Swiss luxury industry will continue to circle the drain for another decade, and at some point, people will look back and recall the Moser trilogy as being the call for change that too few heeded.

Case in point, I give you all the new "entry-level" and most affordable Vacheron Constantin ever:

https://gearpatrol.com/2018/01/16/v...-61164681&mc_cid=ff47310928&mc_eid=4b0e94c3fa









_"...More notable, though, is that it's the most affordable timepiece Vacheron has ever released, priced at $11,700.
_
_*Who It's For:* Vacheron Constantin is clearly positioning their new piece towards newer, younger buyers..."_

Seriously? A $12k moon-phase, triple-date, for _NEWER_, younger buyers???

What younger (under 30?) customer, new to watches, is likely to drop $12k on a triple-date VC, rather than just getting an Omega, Rolex/Tudor, Tag, Breitling, or any of the other better-known, more mainstream brands?

They've all lost their minds.


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

Andddd...


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Cheers, mate!
> 
> The only skeletonized snowflake hands NTH I'm aware of is the Santa Fe that @HWA modified with said hands. Maybe he'll post some pics.
> 
> ...


Quite simply they are living in a bubble surrounded by people who all think and talk the same. Until someone like Moser takes a look outside they will never see or understand reality.

It does not help that the bloggers and journalists all live in the same world and perpetuate the myths for reality. All they are doing is catering for the 1%-ers!!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yeah. The blogger-bubble is definitely there. Even with worn-and-wound, which is supposedly aimed for more affordable (f71-level) stuff... take their recent editorial Editorial: The Battle for Entry-Level Luxury Heats Up - Introducing the Baume and Mercier Clifton Baumatic 5-day Automatic - Worn & Wound on "entry level luxury", discussing 2000, 5000, 7000 dollar pricepoints.

(And let's be perfectly frank - that new BaumeEtMerc watch looks like Generic Swiss Dress Watch #3942343).

In what bloody universe is multiple-thousand-dollars considered "entry level"?! And as always, any justification just compares to other swiss watches and touts "cosc" or "in-house movement" as somehow worthwhile qualities...


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> (And let's be perfectly frank - that new BaumeEtMerc watch looks like Generic Swiss Dress Watch #3942343).


Yeah. Two grand for _that_? Why would they expect that to be make waves in that price segment?

The lack of imagination and sense behind most of these "youth market" initiatives is kinda staggering.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Hey Chris, any update on timing for the new NTH Sub renders? I've got $$ burning a hole in my watch fund and I really want to see what you have got coming.

Skip


----------



## Mike Kilo Niner (Jan 7, 2018)

Thanks to a seller on the forum, I'm now officially part of the club! What a fantastic watch! Admittedly, I'm no expert and have no enormous collection to compare it to, but this Nth sub is a real winner in my book. It's such an amazing step up from my trusty SKX007. Slim and lightweight, but reassuringly solid. So pretty in its details, but a purpose-built tool. An homage to a classic, but with its own distinct style.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I'll post up the Skanta Fe in a bit, but here's the one Chris shoulda made








Sometimes you gotta put on the big boy pants and build it yourself.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skipwilliams said:


> Hey Chris, any update on timing for the new NTH Sub renders? I've got $$ burning a hole in my watch fund and I really want to see what you have got coming.
> 
> Skip


Soon...

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah. The blogger-bubble is definitely there. Even with worn-and-wound, which is supposedly aimed for more affordable (f71-level) stuff... take their recent editorial Editorial: The Battle for Entry-Level Luxury Heats Up - Introducing the Baume and Mercier Clifton Baumatic 5-day Automatic - Worn & Wound on "entry level luxury", discussing 2000, 5000, 7000 dollar pricepoints.
> 
> (And let's be perfectly frank - that new BaumeEtMerc watch looks like Generic Swiss Dress Watch #3942343).
> 
> In what bloody universe is multiple-thousand-dollars considered "entry level"?! And as always, any justification just compares to other swiss watches and touts "cosc" or "in-house movement" as somehow worthwhile qualities...


The design somewhat reminds of the JLC Geophysic, which is interesting in and of itself, as they're both Richemont brands. I wonder if there was some cross-pollination in design departments.

That said, "Baumatic" is a stupid name, and putting "5 Days - Chronometer" on the dial is a crime against both aesthetics and semantics.

I skimmed the W&W article closely enough to surmise they're impressed with the value proposition. Leaving the boring/bad design alone, I'm willing to stipulate that a high-beat, automatic chronometer with a 5-day power reserve is a noteworthy horological feat, and $2k seems like a reasonably low price point for something that's horologically significant.

Okay, fine, it's got a cool movement. The design is still bland, at best, if not outright bad and the B&M brand is among many caught in the no-man's land of minimal recognition within the mass market.

The sudden emphasis on value seems well past its due date, and it would seem to make all their other pricing seem all the more dubious.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I skimmed the W&W article closely enough to surmise they're impressed with the value proposition. Leaving the boring/bad design alone, I'm willing to stipulate that a high-beat, automatic chronometer with a 5-day power reserve is a noteworthy horological feat, and $2k seems like a reasonably low price point for something that's horologically significant.
> 
> Okay, fine, it's got a cool movement. The design is still bland, at best, if not outright bad and the B&M brand is among many caught in the no-man's land of minimal recognition within the mass market.
> 
> The sudden emphasis on value seems well past its due date, and it would seem to make all their other pricing seem all the more dubious.


Yep.

And, I was thinking that that is exactly the problem: even worn&wound are judging value based on "horological significance", not actual, real-world significance based on, idk, something about how the thing actually looks like, what it does, or how it performs.

End of the day, it's still a generic looking watch that keeps so-so time and costs a kidney. And the only thing genuinely special or worthwhile is just "horological significance", in other words, empty marketing foofoo. It's an emphasis on faux value, not real value.


----------



## jhacker (Jan 9, 2018)

Mike Kilo Niner said:


> Thanks to a seller on the forum, I'm now officially part of the club! What a fantastic watch! Admittedly, I'm no expert and have no enormous collection to compare it to, but this Nth sub is a real winner in my book. It's such an amazing step up from my trusty SKX007. Slim and lightweight, but reassuringly solid. So pretty in its details, but a purpose-built tool. An homage to a classic, but with its own distinct style.
> 
> View attachment 12815597


Nice! I have an Oberon incoming and can't wait to get my hands on it. Would like to pick up an Amphion also if one comes up on the sales forum.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yep.
> 
> And, I was thinking that that is exactly the problem: even worn&wound are judging value based on "horological significance", not actual, real-world significance based on, idk, something about how the thing actually looks like, what it does, or how it performs.
> 
> End of the day, it's still a generic looking watch that keeps so-so time and costs a kidney. And the only thing genuinely special or worthwhile is just "horological significance", in other words, empty marketing foofoo. It's an emphasis on faux value, not real value.


Hmmmm...this seems to prompt some mental debate about utility versus horological wizardry, and their overlap, or lack of it.

Assuming their use of "chronometer" means "more accurate" (as opposed to "time telling device'), that seems useful, and I suppose a 5-day PR is also useful, especially if the accuracy is within spec for the first 2.5 of them (accuracy tends to drop off at less than 1/2 power). Automatic is useful, in helping to maintain the watch at or near full power, and I suppose high-beat is useful inasmuch as we seem to like higher beat rates more.

I guess my point above was that the B&M movement might be worth more for the same reason an exotic sports car is worth more, even if we never need the added performance. It's there, whether we explore it or not.

But, for certain, there are many arguments to be made that many feats of horological significance are of vague, if any utility, and it often seems like we're paying for the show as much as the benefit.

The difference between a Miyota 9015 and a high-end calibre may be like the difference between hiring a carpenter and hiring a carpenter who's also a karate master, who will sometimes break wooden boards as he's working. It's fun to watch boards being broken, but someone still needs to hang these kitchen cabinets. Quit screwing around and shouting "ki-YAH!", hang the damned cabinets, and be gone. If I want entertainment, I'll get it elsewhere.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

Another of Doc's creations joined the collection today from F29. Seller KickToc's pic:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tslewisz said:


> Another of Doc's creations joined the collection today from F29. Seller KickToc's pic:


Definitely one from my "more is more" design phase.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> Definitely one from my "more is more" design phase.


You say that like it's a bad thing! 
I'm a fan.


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

docvail said:


> Definitely one from my "more is more" design phase.


Yeah, I thought they, and Orthos, bordered on overdone, but I liked the looks of this one on leather. Plus, I've been looking at Ball and they're not exactly subdued.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## RLextherobot (Jan 10, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah. The blogger-bubble is definitely there. Even with worn-and-wound, which is supposedly aimed for more affordable (f71-level) stuff... take their recent editorial Editorial: The Battle for Entry-Level Luxury Heats Up - Introducing the Baume and Mercier Clifton Baumatic 5-day Automatic - Worn & Wound on "entry level luxury", discussing 2000, 5000, 7000 dollar pricepoints.
> 
> (And let's be perfectly frank - that new BaumeEtMerc watch looks like Generic Swiss Dress Watch #3942343).
> 
> In what bloody universe is multiple-thousand-dollars considered "entry level"?! And as always, any justification just compares to other swiss watches and touts "cosc" or "in-house movement" as somehow worthwhile qualities...


Also, doesn't Tissot make a COSC certified watch with an 80 hour power reserve for under 1k? Obviously not quite on the same level as the B&M, but I think I could live with 40 hours less PR for half the price.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tslewisz said:


> Yeah, I thought they, and Orthos, bordered on overdone, but I liked the looks of this one on leather. Plus, I've been looking at Ball and they're not exactly subdued.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


What you see in the Cerberus (more than the Orthos) is the result of two things - the sense of pressure I felt at the time to do "more" as a means of differentiating my designs, and the desire I had to establish a design language for my brand.

I've said the Cerberus and Orthos were designed in tandem, and that's almost but not quite literally 100% true.

Their designs overlapped, but I was working on the Cerberus first, and trying to bring back some of the elements of the Riccardo - the concentric patterns, the layering and mix of materials, especially that band of stainless on the dial. At the same time, I was trying to incorporate new elements and textures, and use more of the "canvas", and it was my first attempt at doing something "dressy", such as it was.

The Cerberus is definitely the most densely-packed design I've done, probably more dense with details than the vast majority of designs from any brand, and arguably, you could make the case it was over-designed (aesthetically). I probably should have stopped when I was 80% done. Still, sometimes it's good to drink a full-bodied spirit, just to know the full spectrum of flavor.

For the Orthos, I was trying to echo some of what I did with the Cerberus, but as the Orthos was meant to sit on a lower rung in the L&H product range, I stripped some of the detail away. I still like the Cerberus, but I think I always liked the Orthos more, and if I were to do things over, I'd probably do less, and feel less concern with what people say about the result.

The DevilRay was a return to some of the design themes I was playing with when I did the Cerberus and Orthos. I think it came out better overall, partly because we held back some, partly because the details are just executed better. The designs are better now that I have a team, I'm better now that I've done more, and my factory is better than my old one.

We'll see some extension of those themes again in the future, but watching what some of my competitors have done, especially Jason from Halios and Chip from Aevig, I've come to appreciate that sometimes less is more, so the density of detail will be dialed back a bit, and the connections between designs will be a bit more subtle.

If I stopped now, the DevilRay would be as high as we could reach, whereas the Cerberus and Orthos are as much of me as you could take.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RLextherobot said:


> Also, doesn't Tissot make a COSC certified watch with an 80 hour power reserve for under 1k? Obviously not quite on the same level as the B&M, but I think I could live with 40 hours less PR for half the price.


I'm not arguing. I'm playing Devil's Advocate.

In theory, PR shouldn't matter with an automatic, right? I mean, if your movement winds it, it should always be near full-power while you're wearing it, and anything over 12 hours of PR would seem unnecessary, right?

I'm not literally saying that, and I'm sure we could split hairs over "typical" wearing habits, meaning how long a watch would be off the wrist after being worn and wound to full power, but you get the point - extended PR is a neat trick, but of questionable value in an automatic, if we're moving around enough to get the benefits of automatic winding.

The Powermatic 80 movement is, unless I'm mistaken, a tweaked version of the ETA 2824-2, where the extended PR comes at the expense of a lower beat rate.

Does a higher or lower beat rate matter? To some, yes, though I admit I have no idea what the functional advantage of a higher beat rate might be, aside from "oooohhhhh...such a smooth seconds-hand sweep!"

My point about the BM movement is that it's a 5-day PR without being lower beat, and apparently it's COSC-spec (assuming it is), and all that's very cool, I guess, as far as it goes, but...

The 9015 is capable of running within COSC spec, and judging from RatFace's recent experiments, it could be that the 9015's accuracy isn't affected by being low on power. And it has at least a 42 hour power reserve, which, if I know my maths, would seem to be more than enough to get though the normal human 8-hour sleep cycle without losing a beat, much less stopping.

All discussions about PR inevitably lead me to try to figure out where the advantage is, and I invariably come to the conclusion that extended PR is only helpful if your collection size and wearing habits precisely align with the PR, meaning, if you own 5 watches, and maintain a strict daily rotation, then a 5-day PR matters.

But, on the other hand, if you wear the same watch every day, a 5 day PR doesn't seem like it's of any added benefit, nor would it seem to be if you've got a larger collection, and it'll be more than 5 days until the next time you wear that watch.

Even the COSC accuracy seems like competing for a trophy in a sport no one cares about. +/- 6 seconds per day? You could regulate a Seiko NH35 to do that, if you were determined enough, and the 9015 seems to run within that range for 90% of the people who own one.

Even if your 9015 is +/- 12 seconds per day, there are 86,400 seconds in a day. The difference between 6 and 12 is the difference between 99.99306% accurate and 99.98611% accurate.

It's 0.00695% difference, a number so small that people who deal in small numbers would say it's "none".

To whatever extent there's a real cost to coming up with these horological innovations and complications, and those costs are some component in driving retail prices up, the end result isn't that more people feel the price is worth it.

Nor are they likely to work hard enough to pay it, just as most of us aren't likely to think the incremental performance advantage a Bugatti has over a Nissan GT-R justifies the 10x higher price, and even if we thought it did, few of us are willing to part with that much money, knowing we'll rarely be able to drive as fast as either car can go.

If you can get all the performance you need out of a $500 watch with a 9015, or even better, more than you need, and it's better than you're likely to realize, why pay 5x as much for something with a performance envelope you'll never explore, especially if it also has a shorter maintenance interval, substantial maintenance costs, etc, and doesn't even have the visual flash you get with other displays of horological wizardry, like moonphases or chronographs, which are arguably of more day-to-day utility than a 5-day power reserve, even if you're just timing your eggs.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> But, for certain, there are many arguments to be made that many feats of horological significance are of vague, if any utility, and it often seems like we're paying for the show as much as the benefit.
> 
> The difference between a Miyota 9015 and a high-end calibre may be like the difference between hiring a carpenter and hiring a carpenter who's also a karate master, who will sometimes break wooden boards as he's working. It's fun to watch boards being broken, but someone still needs to hang these kitchen cabinets. Quit screwing around and shouting "ki-YAH!", hang the damned cabinets, and be gone. If I want entertainment, I'll get it elsewhere.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


...well said, enough to quote!


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

tslewisz said:


> Another of Doc's creations joined the collection today from F29. Seller KickToc's pic:


the cerb is definitely one of the best designed l/h watches, period. overdone? no.


----------



## tslewisz (Jan 2, 2010)

The Watcher said:


> the cerb is definitely one of the best designed l/h watches, period. overdone? no.


It mellows a bit in real life compared to his promo photos. I think I like it. Thanks for commenting.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

tslewisz said:


> It mellows a bit in real life compared to his promo photos. I think I like it. Thanks for commenting.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


definitely had to be held in person to be truly appreciated. (hey, that sounds like good ad copy!)


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Hmmmm...this seems to prompt some mental debate about utility versus horological wizardry, and their overlap, or lack of it.
> 
> Assuming their use of "chronometer" means "more accurate" (as opposed to "time telling device'), that seems useful, and I suppose a 5-day PR is also useful, especially if the accuracy is within spec for the first 2.5 of them (accuracy tends to drop off at less than 1/2 power). Automatic is useful, in helping to maintain the watch at or near full power, and I suppose high-beat is useful inasmuch as we seem to like higher beat rates more.
> 
> ...


lol, I installed kitchen cabinets for over 20 years. Just got a kick out of this.


----------



## blakadder (Oct 6, 2017)

The Watcher said:


> definitely had to be held in person to be truly appreciated. (hey, that sounds like good ad copy!)
> 
> View attachment 12818607


That strap tho! Definitely makes it a balanced package. Now I want one too!


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

The Cerberus is my favorite L&H model (especially in the "Black Tie" variation). I don't think it's too busy. It's fun.

Re: PR, it's a decent perk that a salesman can use to hype up a watch when making a sale, but nobody's buying the watch if the watch doesn't catch their eye. That generic-looking B&M model doesn't look like it's about to become the next "gotta have it" piece, even if we're only looking at B&M's lineup.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> lol, I installed kitchen cabinets for over 20 years. Just got a kick out of this.


Thank you for your service, on behalf of all late-night snackers.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

This shot from the DevilRay thread is the best photo of a DevilRay I've seen so far and it stirs things in me...


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

pb9610 said:


> This shot from the DevilRay thread is the best photo of a DevilRay I've seen so far and it stirs things in me...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

SteamJ said:


>


Positively frothing.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Been quiet in here today... Is everyone watching da foozball, or is this thread somehow affected by the government shutdown?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Been quiet in here today... Is everyone watching da foozball, or is this thread somehow affected by the government shutdown?


Foozball.









Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Foozball.


Nice. I'm a Green Bay fan, and still angry over the Vikings putting an end to our season by breaking Aaron Rodgers's collarbone during a late hit. I'm enjoying watching your Eagles embarrassing them. Congrats.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Nice. I'm a Green Bay fan, and still angry over the Vikings putting an end to our season by breaking Aaron Rodgers's collarbone during a late hit. I'm enjoying watching your Eagles embarrassing them. Congrats.


31 point game with 8 minutes left.

We were 3 point underdogs.

You know I love this story line...

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Gonna be an interesting Superbowl, Eagles vs. Patriots


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Who dey say gon' beat dem Eagles?










Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Ouch


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I'm looking for some Patriots!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Go Pats!









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

At least the Pats dynasty is coming to an end. The worse thing for the Pats was trading away Garoppolo. OC and DC both leaving to HC jobs and BB is very close to retiring. Garop could have been the next best thing for Brady to hand of the ball to. 

I understand that Brady was scared of his abilities but Kraft overstepped his boundaries and forced Garops trade. 1 of Belichick's greatest traits was to move players a year before their prime. I believe this is what should have been done with Brady. I know he is still the G.O.A.T.(I hate to type that!!) and you can not trade a QB of his stature but the 49ers did it with Montana. Brady has to be close to his ride into the sunset... I mean my god his records....PLEASE!!!! let him be almost done. lol

By the way my team is 1 of the most storied, and 1 of the saddest in the league. Da Bears.....


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I do love how folks are writing off the Patriots as they head to yet another Super Bowl. Maybe they should lose a few games before they're buried?

Chris, I've been to New Orleans, and to Philadelphia. The very idea of a Philly accent appropriating a New Orleans "Who Dat" has me vomiting all over my keyboard. Let's not turn this football fandom into another homage debate, mmmkay?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Y'all talking about that "carry oblong pigskin in hands" game called 'football'?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> I do love how folks are writing off the Patriots as they head to yet another Super Bowl. Maybe they should lose a few games before they're buried?
> 
> Chris, I've been to New Orleans, and to Philadelphia. The very idea of a Philly accent appropriating a New Orleans "Who Dat" has me vomiting all over my keyboard. Let's not turn this football fandom into another homage debate, mmmkay?


I'm not writing the Pats off. They're a great team. I just love how many have written the Eagles off, repeatedly, since we lost our starting QB, apparently forgetting our backup is as good as he is.

Can you think of any other team in recent history that came into the playoffs as the number one seed, with the best record (tied, but still, tied for the best), a buy week, and home-field advantage throughout, but was still written off as an underdog against any other team, without even knowing which team they'd play in the second round, then brutally trounced the team which was favored to win?

I can't.

I think between the Pats and the Eagles, it's a pretty even contest, and it should be a close game. Vegas odds-makers currently favor the Pats by 5.5 points, which isn't much, and I just made a bet on the Eagles, taking whatever points Vegas wants to give them on game day.

Arguably, the Pats have the better QB and coach. But Brady's 40 years old, with a lot of miles on him, while our QB is pretty fresh, and proven himself to be quite capable of having perfect performances. Belichick is great, but he's on the sidelines, not the field, and our coach has shown his own flashes of brilliance as a play-caller, no matter who's in the game. The Eagles are a team built to perform regardless of injured starters.

Meanwhile, the Eagles have the better defense, and aside from the QB, the offenses are roughly equal. We've got the better running game, the Pats have a better passing game, but they lost Brady's number one receiver, Gronkowsk.

It's anyone's game. I'm happy with how my home town team has done this year, whether they win or lose the big game. If it's lose, so be it, and I'll be the first to congratulate my friends who root for the Pats.

For Brady's sake, I hope he can get through the game without being injured, so we don't have to hear how someone on the Eagles "ended Brady's career". Nothing against him at all, and it would be great to see him retire without any controversy.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

On Friday I got an old friend back. My now-wife bought me a Citizen Aqualand diver back in 1997 for my birthday. For 10 years that was pretty much the only watch I wore, as I wasn't a WIS at that point and the watch was perfect for everything I did.

Anyway, it broke in 2007 or so, and I got a replacement Aqualand that lasted me another many years until I dropped it on a hardwood floor in Hawaii and broke it also.

Well, back before Xmas I finally sent both off to Citizen for repair and I got the original first one back on Friday. Therefore, I wore it from Friday afternoon until this morning.

This morning I switched up to the Nacken, and once again I'm surprised and thrilled at just how thin, light, and comfortable this watch is. It just wears so small and comfortable, even on the bracelet.

I knew that of course, but after wearing my decade-long daily beater again and then switching to the Nacken, it was quite remarkable.

I suppose I kind of have to include a picture.


----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

I saw this poor orphan on f29 last week and had to give it a new home. It arrived today...








Drilled lugs, slim profile(compared to skx divers that I'm used to), precise bezel action, nice machined coin edge, Miyota movement and that dial and hands!







It became available at just the right time and definitely met my expectations. Great watch!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I have a similar story but the Santa Cruz..
Close up and low light with icewine in a cellar. Just beautiful!!!!
Go Eagles go!! For Doc and the It's always Sunny gang....









Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Sorry for posting earlier without talking football. I don’t have a horse in the race but Doug Pederson is a true journeyman that has paid his dues, and already beat NE in XXXI. I hope he wins again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Man, I really like that Santa Cruz. I have a white dial CW that I really like, but I think I like the aesthetics of the Santa Cruz a bit more, with the gold markers and blue bezel. It's really a nice looking watch.

I am also still lusting a bit over the Azores. I saw one up on Watchrecon for a stupidly good price this weekend, but I just don't think I can pull of another watch purchase right now. It's a real bummer because if I'd seen it a month ago I might have been able to buy it and have it blend in with all the Xmas gifts Amazon was bringing. Now, if my wife sees a watch sized box show up on the doorstep...it's not going to go over well! LOL.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Man, I really like that Santa Cruz. I have a white dial CW that I really like, but I think I like the aesthetics of the Santa Cruz a bit more, with the gold markers and blue bezel. It's really a nice looking watch.
> 
> I am also still lusting a bit over the Azores. I saw one up on Watchrecon for a stupidly good price this weekend, but I just don't think I can pull of another watch purchase right now. It's a real bummer because if I'd seen it a month ago I might have been able to buy it and have it blend in with all the Xmas gifts Amazon was bringing. Now, if my wife sees a watch sized box show up on the doorstep...it's not going to go over well! LOL.


Have it delivered to your work, or get a PO Box. In most places, they're $3/month.

You don't need one big enough to accept a package. Mine is the smallest size. When something doesn't fit into it, they put a slip in the box, and the package on the shelf in the back, waiting for me to claim it.

We're talking about hiding stuff from the wife, but all kidding aside, it's been useful to have a secure location for things to be shipped to me, without worrying about having to be home to sign for the package, or something valuable being stolen from my porch.

If you give the Post Office signature authority for you, they can accept packages from other couriers, like UPS and FedEx.

When it comes to FedEx, I have packages sent to the local FedEx Office location near my house. As long as the sender includes my phone number, I get a call when the package arrives.


----------



## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

Sounds like you have a lot of experience with them PO boxes from pre-internet days, if ya know waddamean. :-!
Plain brown paper packages, etc. Ya know... gettin' stuff. But prolly for a friend who's between addresses tho. ;-)



docvail said:


> Have it delivered to your work, or get a PO Box. In most places, they're $3/month.
> 
> You don't need one big enough to accept a package. Mine is the smallest size. When something doesn't fit into it, they put a slip in the box, and the package on the shelf in the back, waiting for me to claim it.
> 
> ...


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

I have a PO box and have sorta made friends with the post office folks there. 
I even get DHL stuff sent there, even tho' they supposedly don’t deliver to PO boxes. 
I use the street address of the post office with the PO box number as an apartment number. 
There are several advantages to this as has been stated and a few others one can use the imagination to fathom.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Y'all talking about that "carry oblong pigskin in hands" game called 'football'?


Sure but its played on foot instead of on horseback. Then it'd be horseball and I might care more.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Brady Schmady- I'm just going to leave this here.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

We now interrupt all this foosball talk for a cool watch on a wintery day pic


----------



## CantFightJose (Dec 29, 2016)

^^That Barracuda looks sexy af.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



rpm1974 said:


> The only stat we care about around here are these
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cerb today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Kinesis said:


> I saw this poor orphan on f29 last week and had to give it a new home. It arrived today...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ugh, I _need _this watch.


----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

JakeJD said:


> Ugh, I _need _this watch.


One on the bay last week BNIB, not sure about the seller. Probably not for everyone, but it's going to be a long honeymoon for me. Good luck!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just an FYI to all (and feel free to tell all yer friends) - we're WAY ahead of schedule on the DevilRay. I just found out we should be delivering before the end of next month (February), a good two months ahead of expected.

As such, I'll be raising pre-order prices to $700 this coming Friday. If you've been sitting on the fence, you've got two days to get yer money down and save $100. 

Clearly, I was too conservative in my delivery timeline.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Just an FYI to all (and feel free to tell all yer friends) - we're WAY ahead of schedule on the DevilRay. I just found out we should be delivering before the end of next month (February), a good two months ahead of expected.
> 
> Clearly, I was too conservative in my delivery timeline.


You know what usually happens whenever anyone makes statements like that right?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> You know what usually happens whenever anyone makes statements like that right?


I'm not anyone.

I'm docvail.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Just an FYI to all (and feel free to tell all yer friends) - we're WAY ahead of schedule on the DevilRay. I just found out we should be delivering before the end of next month (February), a good two months ahead of expected.
> 
> As such, I'll be raising pre-order prices to $700 this coming Friday. If you've been sitting on the fence, you've got two days to get yer money down and save $100.
> 
> Clearly, I was too conservative in my delivery timeline.


Best news I've heard all week. But then again, it's only Tuesday.


----------



## Spirit of the Watch (Jun 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> Who dey say gon' beat dem Eagles?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



View attachment 12832813


Oh man, I don't agree w/ Viking fans doing this. But I saw enough from Eagles fans' quite frankly it's all in good humor.

The Vikings did themselves in and Pat Shurmur took the week to prepare for his new job in New York....... which included interviewing for the DC position and coming to a decision that Eli Manning will start next year. He even spoke to Glazer about his plans during halftime....... while his team was losing.

Zimmer dropped the ball on defense.

Anyhow, I just wanted to share there's a thread in the Café.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f73/nfl-2017-a-4495443-53.html


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I'm pretty sure this is the best news I'll be getting this week.

Suite!


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Just an FYI to all (and feel free to tell all yer friends) - we're WAY ahead of schedule on the DevilRay. I just found out we should be delivering before the end of next month (February), a good two months ahead of expected.
> 
> As such, I'll be raising pre-order prices to $700 this coming Friday. If you've been sitting on the fence, you've got two days to get yer money down and save $100.
> 
> Clearly, I was too conservative in my delivery timeline.


Better early than late. Very much looking forward to its arrival.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> Just an FYI to all (and feel free to tell all yer friends) - we're WAY ahead of schedule on the DevilRay. I just found out we should be delivering before the end of next month (February), a good two months ahead of expected.
> 
> As such, I'll be raising pre-order prices to $700 this coming Friday. If you've been sitting on the fence, you've got two days to get yer money down and save $100.
> 
> Clearly, I was too conservative in my delivery timeline.


Then it will be 2 months earlier for the last batch of subs!


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

The DevilRay is in the house! It wears smaller than I expected and feels much thinner than the dimensions would make you think. The blue dial is very attractive and the ring of color much more subtle than expected. I am not a bracelet guy, but this one fits very well. The watch has a good heft to it - I showed it to my wife and a colleague and that's the first thing they said. Here are some initial shots, I'll post some comparison shots later:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This'll work. NTH Näcken Vintage Blue on tribute to MN premium seatbelt NATO from Cincy Strap Works.










Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not a bad resemblance to the '82 MN look, eh?










Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

God damn Doc...Ya facking with my insides. I love the Tudor snowflake, becoming 1 of my grails. NACKEN!!!! now that is a beaut. I will have 1 this year.



docvail said:


> This'll work. NTH Näcken Vintage Blue on tribute to MN premium seatbelt NATO from Cincy Strap Works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> Not a bad resemblance to the '82 MN look, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Facking with people's insides. 

Just another club in the bag. 


Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Regarding the DevilRay... Chris was kind enough to let me get my hands on a prototype late last year.

I didn't think it would be my bag, to be honest, especially the radial colour wheel / depth thing (technical diveology term). However, I was wrong. The case is excellent - unashamedly masculine, hefty but not comedy-large. The bracelet design is _incredibly_ good - chunky and original with an excellent adjustable clasp. The depth wheel thing (I am the next Jacques Costeau, I tell ya) is not at all obtrusive.

Oh, and the orange just screams retro dive class.

Recommended.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> ...unashamedly masculine, hefty but not comedy-large..


Exactly how my Tinder profile would read, if I was single and looking to mingle.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

docvail said:


> Just an FYI to all (and feel free to tell all yer friends) - we're WAY ahead of schedule on the DevilRay. I just found out we should be delivering before the end of next month (February), a good two months ahead of expected.
> 
> As such, I'll be raising pre-order prices to $700 this coming Friday. If you've been sitting on the fence, you've got two days to get yer money down and save $100.
> 
> Clearly, I was too conservative in my delivery timeline.


Well then, let's post some photos.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Forever8895 said:


> Then it will be 2 months earlier for the last batch of subs!


That would be awesome!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Good night f71.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Good morning F71.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Yes, good morning to all.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Buenas dias muchachos!!!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Bonus dice yourself.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> Good morning F71.


Not watch related, but Good Morning texts with inspirational images are a thing in India, where one out of three people run out of space on their phones daily due to receiving so many of them!

WSJ had an article about it originally, but they're behind a paywall, so here's the Fox version:
India's 'good morning' texts have become a real problem | Fox News

The unpredictable problems of modern life...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Buenas dias muchachos!!!


Aloha Snackbar!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MaxIcon said:


> Not watch related, but Good Morning texts with inspirational images are a thing in India, where one out of three people run out of space on their phones daily due to receiving so many of them!
> 
> WSJ had an article about it originally, but they're behind a paywall, so here's the Fox version:
> India's 'good morning' texts have become a real problem | Fox News
> ...


Having witnessed Indians' love for going shoeless on airplanes, I can assure WSJ and Fox News that good morning texts ain't their biggest problem.

They should add "remember, no one wants to see your feet" to those messages, for a GI Joe style PSA.










Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

MikeT, what watch is that?


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Ah, nevermind I found it through Google. Orthos Commander 300. That's a really sharp watch!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

where ya' been, spicoli? that's the Commander 300. Special run of Seamaster 300 dials in Orthos II case. They're long gone, but they hit the sales forum every now and again. Came in black and dark chalky blue. Certainly no-date; can't recall if there was a date option.



Toonces said:


> MikeT, what watch is that?


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Toonces said:


> MikeT, what watch is that?


Casio G-Shock "Pink Flamingo" Edition.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

hwa said:


> where ya' been, spicoli? that's the Commander 300. Special run of Seamaster 300 dials in Orthos II case. They're long gone, but they hit the sales forum every now and again. Came in black and dark chalky blue. Certainly no-date; can't recall if there was a date option.


There was. And also a blue dial. And only 11, I think, with that particular combination.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Project 'Spectre'

258 total.

100 Blue
158 Black.

Date and no-date options. Can't remember the breakdown. It's in there somewhere.

EDIT - Found it:

Black no date - 120 - this was supposed to be 112, for a total of 250, but my factory mistakenly made 120.
Black with date - 38
Blue no date - 80
Blue with date - 20

Additionally, I had 3 more assembled using extra parts - a blue date, a blue no-date, and a black no-date, so the grand total ended up being 261.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> Project 'Spectre'
> 
> 258 total.
> 
> ...


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

MikeCfromLI said:


>


It's wicked awesome on black rubber. :-!


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> It's wicked awesome on black rubber. :-!


Hirsch Accent


----------



## heyitsthatguy (Sep 18, 2015)

Have been enjoying the C300 on canvas lately.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Commander...best project watch I've ever owned









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Totally top watch:









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Top watch? As the kids* in UK** say now***, "absolute unit"****, that.

*- maybe
**- probably
***- I think?
****- Okay I've just been seeing it on english twitter a lot lately, I think it either means "pretty good" or "massive tonker".


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Awesome pics. I really, really like the looks of that watch.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Posted elsewhere and deserves a posting here too on Fannum Friday:









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

That is the Commander 300, produced by L&H, as the Project 'Spectre' as discussed here: Project 'Spectre'



Toonces said:


> MikeT, what watch is that?


Looks like a lot of people beat me to this. It is one of my favorites.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


> Commander...best project watch I've ever owned
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was very happy with how everything turned out, as a whole.

Yes, it's a great watch (if I say so myself), but the way that project came together, with the James Bond movie release, the Omega SM300 LE tie-in, Aaron and Kyle (WUS user KJRye) working design, Zach (Cincy Strap Works) using the project to launch his business with a couple of awesome custom NATOs, and me getting to combine it with a 2nd production run of the Orthos was like all the planets aligning.

I'm sure some at the time got their feathers ruffled by how I restricted the parameters of the project's design and development, but hopefully everyone who saw it through to the end feels the results justify the process and the control I exerted over it. Usually project watches are like cat-herding, but we got that project done in record time, and I doubt there are many project watches which are as highly sought after.

I may never do another project watch. But if not, I'm glad I got to do that one.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

MikeyT said:


> That is the Commander 300, produced by L&H, as the Project 'Spectre' as discussed here: Project 'Spectre'
> 
> Looks like a lot of people beat me to this. It is one of my favorites.


Thanks. Unfortunately that all took place well before I was a WIS, so I missed it. I'll keep my eyes open on Watch Recon for one to come up for sale.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Top watch? As the kids* in UK** say now***, "absolute unit"****, that.
> 
> *- maybe
> **- probably
> ...


Gettin' troopie with da kids there Elijah, woteva blows yer skirt up Mate...|>

Have a great weekend.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Ragl said:


> Gettin' troopie with da kids there Elijah, woteva blows yer skirt up Mate...|>
> 
> Have a great weekend.
> 
> ...


Seriously, you guys have the worst (like, best [i.e. worst]) slang ever. And that's before bringing the Scots into it all.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Y'all made me want to wear mine today. 









Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Y'all made me want to wear mine today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are only 3 watches in my collection that are "absolutely, without a doubt, no matter what else happens, never going anywhere, no-take-backs" status. Two gifts from my wife/kids, and that beauty.



Mil6161 said:


> Commander...best project watch I've ever owned
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did it also make you want pizza??? It did me...


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

JakeJD said:


> It's wicked awesome on black rubber. :-!


I agree!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

90% of the Planet Ocean's looks at 10% of the price.

Not a bad deal, on the whole, I s'pose.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> 90% of the Planet Ocean's looks at 10% of the price.
> 
> Not a bad deal, on the whole, I s'pose.


If only it was 90% of the size...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Speaking of Limited Editions..

Is the SpeCtre II all it's cracked up to be?

Darn tootin!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> If only it was 90% of the size...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If I was the sort who had to get the last word, I'd point out that the Orthos, at 42mm diameter, is 92.3% of the 45.5mm version of the PO.

But I'm not that sort.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

If i was the sort to point out that i meant 90% of 42mm, well, you get the point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

hwa said:


> If i was the sort to point out that i meant 90% of 42mm, well, you get the point


38mm seems kinda small for a dive-style watch, no?

Edit: Did a search for 38mm dive watch...guess not.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanker G1 said:


> 38mm seems kinda small for a dive-style watch, no?
> 
> Edit: Did a search for 38mm dive watch...guess not.


What are you, the sort who points out the obvious?

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanker G1 said:


> 38mm seems kinda small for a dive-style watch, no?
> 
> Edit: Did a search for 38mm dive watch...guess not.





docvail said:


> What are you, the sort who points out the obvious?
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


I may be losing my mind. I could have sworn that post said something slightly different when I quoted it. Was it edited right after it was posted?

Anyway, I thought I was breaking stones, you know, friendly like.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

First day in Chicago and this is how I start it!!!!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> First day in Chicago and this is how I start it!!!!!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Depending on your coronary artery health, it could also be how you end it.

#WatchYerCholesterol

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Just scored one off the forums a couple weeks ago. My second Janis and quite pleased. Now the hunt begins for a vanilla or mint Azores!


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> 90% of the Planet Ocean's looks at 10% of the price.
> 
> Not a bad deal, on the whole, I s'pose.












Like this


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just sayin'...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

It's a dog and pony show at the New Orleans Fairgrounds










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

docvail said:


> I may be losing my mind. I could have sworn that post said something slightly different when I quoted it. Was it edited right after it was posted?
> 
> Anyway, I thought I was breaking stones, you know, friendly like.


I posted the first line, did a 15-20 second search for '38mm dive watch' and then added the edit line. I didn't change the first line while adding the edit. I thought your reply was super fast. You had to be hitting 'reply with quote' nearly the same moment I was clicking 'save changes'. I like 40-45mm watches. I added the edit because I was surprised by the 38mm dive watch search results...didn't think there were that many out there. Curious what you thought you quoted?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanker G1 said:


> I posted the first line, did a 15-20 second search for '38mm dive watch' and then added the edit line. I didn't change the first line while adding the edit. I thought your reply was super fast. You had to be hitting 'reply with quote' nearly the same moment I was clicking 'save changes'. I like 40-45mm watches. I added the edit because I was surprised by the 38mm dive watch search results...didn't think there were that many out there. Curious what you thought you quoted?


I forget exactly, but whatever it was would have made my response make more sense, albeit in a smartass way. Second-guessing my smartass response is what led me to re-read it, thinking I might want to add a "just kidding".

How often does a desire for clarity lead to questioning one's sanity?

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

In your case, chris, often


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

hwa said:


> In your case, chris, often
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good luck with that.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

This conversation has taken on a sort of weird, awkward vibe.

Oh, here's an idea - Someone post some watch pics!!!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> This conversation has taken on a sort of weird, awkward vibe.
> 
> Oh, here's an idea - Someone post some watch pics!!!


I'll start.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

rpm1974 said:


> I'll start.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agh, you're killing me! I did end up scoring a pre-production demo from Doc (incidentally, a blue/no-date). But to keep it off the wife's radar I had to ship it to my parents' house for safe holding. Eventually I'll retrieve it, then ease it into the rotation during long-sleeve weather, when it only occasionally peeks out.

The wife will immediately notice that I've purchased a new watch of course, but then she'll pretend not to and say nothing. This is our little game. Buying watches is my guilty secret, and my wife lets me get away with it because she knows that it's better than having a husband who's an abusive alcoholic, a gambling addict, or unfaithful.

Barely.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Speaking of weird, awkward vibes...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Some more shots of the DevilRay are in order. It wears really nicely, definitely smaller than expected. My favorite part of an NTH is the case - I have the Nacken and Antilles, and now with the DevilRay, I gotta say that Chris and team really know how to design a great case.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Great pics. Can't wait


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Video preview posted by John "Fight Club" Keil of Watch Gauge...


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

That turquoise watch has me like Randy Marsh in the internet tent.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Nice video. I really like that LE color scheme. I still prefer the turquoise, but the LE would definitely be my second choice.


----------



## RLextherobot (Jan 10, 2017)

Tanker G1 said:


> 38mm seems kinda small for a dive-style watch, no?
> 
> Edit: Did a search for 38mm dive watch...guess not.


This brings up some weird trivia I was reading about the other day. Some of y'all may be aware that Dave Toschi, the cop who was in charge of the Zodiac Killer investigation passed away recently. In reading up on him, I found a quote with regards to the Zodiac watch that one of the prime suspects in the killings was wearing. Per Toschi the watch was "a big watch" and "he wanted people to see what he had on his arm".

The size of that watch? 35mm.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

RLextherobot said:


> This brings up some weird trivia I was reading about the other day. Some of y'all may be aware that Dave Toschi, the cop who was in charge of the Zodiac Killer investigation passed away recently. In reading up on him, I found a quote with regards to the Zodiac watch that one of the prime suspects in the killings was wearing. Per Toschi the watch was "a big watch" and "he wanted people to see what he had on his arm".
> 
> The size of that watch? 35mm.


My what a big watch you have! That must be the largest 35mm watch I've ever seen!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Who's wearing a DevilRay today?


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Coriolanus said:


> Agh, you're killing me! I did end up scoring a pre-production demo from Doc (incidentally, a blue/no-date). But to keep it off the wife's radar I had to ship it to my parents' house for safe holding. Eventually I'll retrieve it, then ease it into the rotation during long-sleeve weather, when it only occasionally peeks out.
> 
> The wife will immediately notice that I've purchased a new watch of course, but then she'll pretend not to and say nothing. This is our little game. Buying watches is my guilty secret, and my wife lets me get away with it because she knows that it's better than having a husband who's an abusive alcoholic, a gambling addict, or unfaithful.
> 
> Barely.


Dude if you're shipping stuff to other addresses you might need to step back and reassess some things, lol.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

skunkworks said:


> Dude if you're shipping stuff to other addresses you might need to step back and reassess some things, lol.


You're absolutely right. Upon further consideration, I now realize... that I need a P.O. Box.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Dam that doc Vail









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

yeah that docvail is really something...let's see what he has up his sleeve next









and to all...a good night


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Iliyan said:


> Who's wearing a DevilRay today?


I am 









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Devil ray and all is nice okay, but I want to see the nuuuuuuuu sh&itz!! What’s in the making for 2018?


Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Spectre 2 on a Schmato


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Stuck on this lately.










Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I feel like I'm being poked with a stick. Repeatedly.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I feel like I'm being poked with a stick. Repeatedly.


That's what she said.

Boom!

Nailed it.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

C'mon Doc, get drunk and give us a glimpse of your plans for 2018!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Toonces said:


> C'mon Doc, get drunk and give us a glimpse of your plans for 2018!


You didn't hear it from me.... >.> <.< >.>

He's planning on making MORE watches.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> C'mon Doc, get drunk and give us a glimpse of your plans for 2018!


Candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Coriolanus said:


> You're absolutely right. Upon further consideration, I now realize... that I need a P.O. Box.


My standard line is "it's a watch that got fixed". She has no idea whether that's true and since I have a separate Watch fund that doesn't mingle with our money, I get a pass.

And with a watch drawer that holds around 60-70 watches she can't tell new from old.

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jhacker (Jan 9, 2018)

I just received my NIB Oberon from the sales forum (thanks bananana!!!) and sized up the bracelet today. Beautiful watch and looks better on the wrist than the photos I have seen on the web. Hopefully Chis will have that next run of subs soon... Would like to pick up a Amphion and Nacken (no date) to go along with this one.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jhacker said:


> I just received my NIB Oberon from the sales forum (thanks bananana!!!) and sized up the bracelet today. Beautiful watch and looks better on the wrist than the photos I have seen on the web. Hopefully Chis will have that next run of subs soon... Would like to pick up a Amphion and Nacken (no date) to go along with this one.


My fav of the subs I just go for the 3-6-9 my only gripe is I am not a Mercedes hands guy stick hands from the amphibious would be perfection


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ready for the game.










Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ LOL.

I currently live in Rhode Island. My son and I stopped at a McDonalds on the way back from his wrestling tournament in Providence, and I didn't even notice that he was wearing his Eagles knit cap. So he goes up to order, and comes back and tells me they almost wouldn't serve him because of his hat!

Doh!

I didn't even notice, or I would have made him take it off. We're lucky we didn't get our asses kicked! I noticed a few people staring at us, and I swear I didn't even get it.

Go PATS!!!11!!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I noticed you've been pretty thin on the forums lately, Doc. At first I thought it might be Super Bowl fever, but now I think that maybe you're in possession of about 300 Devil Rays, and you're giving those bad boys a final QC prior to shipping.

Just sayin'.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Ready for the game.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That fourth and goal was ridiculous. You must have pooped yourself.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> That fourth and goal was ridiculous. You must have pooped yourself.


It's okay. I've got plenty of pants.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> It's okay. I've got plenty of pants.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


Disclaimer: In no way should my "like" or quoting of this comment be construed as an endorsement of wearing pants.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Congrats, Doc. Congrats, Philly!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Ah crap.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Wow. What an amazing game.

Well played game on both sides. The Pats have nothing to hang their heads about.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Philly Philly!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just a heads-up to anyone getting ready to sell an NTH Sub.

The recent videos by The Urban Gentry have caused interest in them to surge, especially among TUG's followers and in the UGWC group on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/1503241666636531/?hc_location=group.

I'd suggest posting your sales there, and that you may be able to ask a little more than they've been selling for on WUS/f29.


----------



## kakefe (Feb 16, 2014)

instagram @watchcolony


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Spectre 2










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hey guys - haven't been around much lately, mostly lurking, and making strategically-placed wiseass remarks in other threads. Please don't feel abandoned.

I'm crazy busy right now - some of the DevilRays coming in next week, the rest next month, plus I'm in the midst of setting up a new warehouse, re-doing my website, working on some new models, and trying to keep up with the support requests I get. 

Aside from all that "business as usual" stuff, I've got some other ideas for related businesses I want to start, with some other people involved, so I've been taking meetings and calls to discuss the ideas, figuring out who'll do what and what it'll cost, etc. 

Busy, busy, busy, as always.

I know there's interest in seeing the next batch of Subs. The Urban Gentry video has spiked interest in them, and I'm getting buried in messages. 

If you're reading this, please don't email me to ask about them, or future production plans, or anything else mentioned above. Whatever I'm working on, I'll reveal it when I can, when it's ready. I'm not into creating a lot of extra work for myself by doing things in halfassed ways. 

Every email I get asking about anything related to stuff I've said makes me regret saying anything. I'm not mad, I just feel pressure to give everyone a polite response, and it's time-consuming. 

For now, all I can say is I plan to reveal the new Subs soon. Not sure when. I'd like to make more after the next batch sells out. Not sure how many, which versions, or when that will be. 

I appreciate everyone's enthusiasm about what I'm doing, no less than I appreciate everyone's patience with me as I do it.


----------



## Relo60 (Jun 14, 2015)

Just so happens this NTH Nacken Vintage Blue is on my wrist today.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

When will we make more NTH Subs?!?!?!? - Janis Trading Company


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> When will we make more NTH Subs?!?!?!? - Janis Trading Company


Will you please answer one basic question? Will the new subs all still be 40mm?


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I wasn't sure if I would like the silver outline on the hands of the Nacken since the indices aren't outlined. However, the more I see pictures of the vintage, the more I think I might even prefer the hands on it over the modern. 

It's a tough call.

Edit: I don't think the watch would look better with the indices outlined in silver. Just wanted to be clear I wasn't suggesting that.


----------



## captaincaveman79 (Feb 19, 2012)

Doc made me a customer for life, guys. A few weeks ago I reached out to him about some dust on the dial of my Azores. Specifically, there was a ring of chalky substance at the seam between dial and internal bezel. I had planned to just open the watch up and dab away with some rodico but wanted Doc's opinion on what was causing the dust to form. He told me to send pics because it could relate to a rubbing issue and I should send it in for warranty repair. That second part blew my mind since the watch is far from brand new and I purchased it second hand. He pays for shipping both ways and the watchmaker turned it around in just a couple of days. To top it off, the repair involved replacing the case with a pristine new one. Bonus!

Heres a pic prior to repairs. The dust is most prominent at about 1 o' clock.









And here it is back on the wrist, good as new. I ve had good customer service experiences with Chris on prior purchases but this really was appreciated. Now I gotta resist picking up a Devil Ray.


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

captcaveman -

wow that looks like a nice watch. Thank you for your story. I never get to hear good stories about customer support. Thank you for posting it. 

oh how I wish Doc would do some sort of new project watch.. LOVE my 1 of 21 blue with date commander 300.. I told a co-worker that only 21 watches like that one exists.. he was Shocked!!.. Love that watch


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

The DevilRay is a project watch. Doc and a few others designed it as a project. Go buy one. Or two.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

It would be great if doc made a project _timepiece_, tbh. There's enough watches already, time to move up, eh. ;-)


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

captaincaveman79, this might help.


----------



## captaincaveman79 (Feb 19, 2012)

Thanks. Yeah I'm loving my azores mint with date. Not as exclusive as your commander but still only 1 of 35 from what I recall so still quite rare.



Quazi said:


> captcaveman -
> 
> wow that looks like a nice watch. Thank you for your story. I never get to hear good stories about customer support. Thank you for posting it.
> 
> oh how I wish Doc would do some sort of new project watch.. LOVE my 1 of 21 blue with date commander 300.. I told a co-worker that only 21 watches like that one exists.. he was Shocked!!.. Love that watch


----------



## synaptyx (Nov 25, 2013)

captaincaveman79 said:


> Now I gotta resist picking up a Devil Ray.


Resistance is futile. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Quazi said:


> oh how I wish Doc would do some sort of new project watch.. LOVE my 1 of 21 blue with date commander 300.. I told a co-worker that only 21 watches like that one exists.. he was Shocked!!.. Love that watch





hwa said:


> The DevilRay is a project watch. Doc and a few others designed it as a project. Go buy one. Or two.











If you're going by production numbers, most project watches aren't that special. Or at least, the Commander 300 isn't.

We made 261 of the Commander 300. The variant made in the lowest numbers was the blue with date, 21 pieces.

I only made 15 pieces of one of the DevilRay versions, out of just 260 pieces of the 4 primary colorways.

I only made 10 pieces of the NTH Amphion Vintage Blue.

I only made 5 pieces of the Phantom, B dial, with date, DLC case.

Nothing we've made so far was made in very large numbers. Everything we've made is therefore "rare", regardless of whether or not it was a project watch, or whether or not we made a big deal about the small production numbers.

The thing I don't like about project watches is the exact thing everyone else seems to love about them. I don't have the patience to explain why I'm doing what I'm doing, and I sure as hell don't want to have to debate it, or put it to a vote, or answer to a committee. I know what I'm doing. I just want to do it.

Every new model I make is like a project watch, but without a lot of the stupid argle-bargle and sense of entitlement so many people have. I decide what I'm making, you guys can talk about it, everyone gets to pick the version they want, and then I deliver it. No voting, no hurt feelings, minimal trolling, the process takes much less time, and doesn't cost you anything more. The Commander 300 was sold for the same price as the Orthos pre-order.

That said, I'll make anything anyone wants, so long as you're buying at least 300 total, and at least 10-20 of each variant. No problem. I'll even make you a nice price.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Out of curiosity, which DevilRay is it that only 15 were made?


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

SteamJ said:


> Out of curiosity, which DevilRay is it that only 15 were made?


Limited Edition My Little Pony DevilRay with pink sunray dial and individual ponies for the indices.


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

SteamJ said:


> Out of curiosity, which DevilRay is it that only 15 were made?


I'm going to guess the orange dial.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

A BronieRay!!! Damn if only I knew!!! It would match my pony jammies....



Keeper of Time said:


> Limited Edition My Little Pony DevilRay with pink sunray dial and individual ponies for the indices.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Mmmmmmm


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

1 of 15? PSH... amateurs.

View attachment 12881423


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> Limited Edition My Little Pony DevilRay with pink sunray dial and individual ponies for the indices.


Best laugh of the week.

Ric


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ric Capucho said:


> Best laugh of the week.
> 
> Ric


You had a $#itty week. Horses aren't that funny, even when little and young and pink.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> Will you please answer one basic question? Will the new subs all still be 40mm?


Seriously?

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

SteamJ said:


> Out of curiosity, which DevilRay is it that only 15 were made?


The Watch Gauge special edition is the one, I think. Gray dial with orange orange outline (chapter ring?). It's pretty sharp looking and definitely the pick of the litter if there were no turquoise option.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)




----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Toonces said:


> The Watch Gauge special edition is the one, I think. Gray dial with orange orange outline (chapter ring?). It's pretty sharp looking and definitely the pick of the litter if there were no turquoise option.


Ah, I forgot about that one. Good call.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> Out of curiosity, which DevilRay is it that only 15 were made?


If I knew off the top of my head, and wanted to say, I'd have said.

If I don't say, then I don't remember, don't feel like looking it up, don't want to say, or some combination thereof.

Everything we make is made in limited numbers, but after a dozen production cycles, and some models with more than 20 variants, I can't remember all the numbers for each one, and I don't have the time or the inclination to go looking them up every time someone needs to feel a little more special about a watch.

I sure as hell don't plan on providing updated numbers if I happen to make more of something. Endless discussion of our production numbers isn't something I ever committed to supporting.

"Limited numbers" should be enough for everyone to get the gist.

Everything we make is made in limited numbers.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


Translation: yes


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> If I knew off the top of my head, and wanted to say, I'd have said.
> 
> If I don't say, then I don't remember, don't feel like looking it up, don't want to say, or some combination thereof.
> 
> ...


Dude, you're a friend but, seriously, if you don't want people asking then don't bother saying. If it doesn't matter to you then don't waste the time mentioning it and inviting questions.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> Dude, you're a friend but, seriously, if you don't want people asking then don't bother saying. If it doesn't matter to you then don't waste the time mentioning it and inviting questions.


Yup, but I literally just got done saying I end up regretting saying things because I don't have time for endless follow up questions.

Many of the questions people ask are pointless. Literally, no point, at all. People are curious, but the info adds no value. And I get tired of answering pointless questions which require me to stop and dig into records, but without there being any benefit to anyone derived from me spending that time.

What difference does the answer make? It won't affect the used market prices any more than prices are affected by the limited availability of everything else I've made. Someone is literally selling a one-of-a-kind watch on f29 right now, for $200.

If I thought it would help me sell them more quickly, or help any of you sell them for more money, I'd make a big deal out of the numbers. No one seems to care enough, so for me, it's not a question I need to consider. It's a waste of time, but I feel pressure to respond, because I'm rude if I don't.

Which is not to say I shouldn't respond when someone else brings it up. I didn't raise the issue.

Someone likes that the blue Commander 300 with date was just 21 pieces. Okay. Awesome. They're all made in small numbers. As an example, one Phantom version was 5 (and there were Subs versions also made in just 5 pieces, unless I'm remembering wrong). There was a DevilRay in 15 pieces, actually more than one version, including the Watch Gauge LE.

I'm a one man show. Consider the time-suck all these pointless questions create. If the answer doesn't matter, does the question need to be asked?

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Yup, but I literally just got done saying I end up regretting saying things because I don't have time for endless follow up questions.
> 
> Many of the questions people ask are pointless. Literally, no point, at all. People are curious, but the info adds no value. And I get tired of answering pointless questions which require me to stop and dig into records, but without there being any benefit to anyone derived from me spending that time.
> 
> ...











I only kid because I care, Doc.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


Why wouldn't I be? That's the reason I will own 3 Devils but 0 anything else. 40mm looks invisible on my wrists. So if the new models you plan for NTH are 40mm then I don't have to worry about saving up for them


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm a bit burnt out. Need a break from the social media stuff so I can clear my mind and get caught up on work. Been seeing way too much negative stuff online lately, and it's clearly affecting my mood. Sorry for my lack of patience. 


Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'm a bit burnt out. Need a break from the social media stuff so I can clear my mind and get caught up on work. Been seeing way too much negative stuff online lately, and it's clearly affecting my mood. Sorry for my lack of patience.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


Good idea. It's in your tone. Hope a break cheers you up. You should be all smiles with that pretty trophy you guys won...

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I'm a bit burnt out. Need a break from the social media stuff so I can clear my mind and get caught up on work. Been seeing way too much negative stuff online lately, and it's clearly affecting my mood. Sorry for my lack of patience.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


We've all been there, Doc. Hang in there. Here's a pic that's done wonders for my mood this week. Hope it gives you a little positive perspective too:


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> Why wouldn't I be? That's the reason I will own 3 Devils but 0 anything else. 40mm looks invisible on my wrists. So if the new models you plan for NTH are 40mm then I don't have to worry about saving up for them


The thing that makes an NTH sub a 'Sub' is the case - the badass case that gets us 300M WR in an 11.5mm thin package. So the case is always the same for every sub. And the case is 40mm.

More money for other stuff now!


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Went down to the beach this morning to catch the sunrise. I've been rocking this majestic beast for about a week now, and it's really growing on me:









I do plan to put it on a leather strap. There's nothing wrong with the bracelet per se, but the way the end links flare in order to meet the lugs also prevents them from rotating fully downward. The result is that they make the watch "wear" a little bigger than a skinny-wristed fellow like myself would prefer. I'm sure it's not a problem for folks with larger wrists. It's a personal preference thing, and a minor one at that. But I already love this watch, and I think a leather strap will make it perfect for me. Bottom line, well done, Doc.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

CMFord said:


> The thing that makes an NTH sub a 'Sub' is the case - the badass case that gets us 300M WR in an 11.5mm thin package. So the case is always the same for every sub. And the case is 40mm.
> 
> More money for other stuff now!


But who's on first?


----------



## brian2502 (May 29, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> Mmmmmmm


 Stunning!! I have one and love it! Looking for an Amphion modern no date now.. Hopefully soon..


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm a bit burnt out. Need a break from the social media stuff so I can clear my mind and get caught up on work. Been seeing way too much negative stuff online lately, and it's clearly affecting my mood. Sorry for my lack of patience.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


Fo reals, grouchy A.F. lol


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Elbakalao said:


> But who's on first?


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Ratfacedgit said:


> captaincaveman79, this might help.


I don't know about captaincaveman79 but pictures help take the sting out of the still early but no longer super early turquoise devilrays.

@docvail just crack a cider and watch the Philly special on repeat for a bit. It might not be a cure but it should help.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Doc do your thang...

Chill with tha Fam, Have a few ciders, watch a few B rated movies. 

Enjoy a few Doc Dayz!!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Chillin at the children's museum with my kiddos


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

docvail said:


> I'm a bit burnt out. Need a break from the social media stuff so I can clear my mind and get caught up on work. Been seeing way too much negative stuff online lately, and it's clearly affecting my mood. Sorry for my lack of patience.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


Doc,
When I feel blue, I pick up the Tele and just play. While listening to this*, loud, very loud. If that lead, bass and drums don't make you happy, nothing will.






*No, I cannot play this, yet.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

The DevilRay prototype has departed


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Just saying, a bronze devilray (keeping the same dial and design) would kick butt.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

That dawg with 3 heads arrived today.

A trawl thro' ebay last week turned up an unwanted Cerberus, it seems that this particular dawg had the horological equivalent of fleas - he was magenetised&#8230;&#8230;.
His owner couldn't be bothered to treat the poor doggie so he wuz gonna be gawn.

A quick round of negotiation brought the price right down to bargain basement territory - Cerberus was mine!!

Had him on a tight leash all day and he is keeping perfect time, but a week of close observation will hopefully tickle out any significant misbehavin', then me and Cerberus will get along just fine. Here is a photo of said dawg; my, my, he is a real 'ansum fella:









View attachment 12892737


Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

CMFord said:


> The thing that makes an NTH sub a 'Sub' is the case - the badass case that gets us 300M WR in an 11.5mm thin package. So the case is always the same for every sub. And the case is 40mm.
> 
> More money for other stuff now!


Fair enough, thanks for the info. More for the rest of you!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orthos ii today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Geckota leather for the Spectre II finally arrived today.


----------



## jhacker (Jan 9, 2018)

Just picked this Amphion up yesterday from a fellow forum member, (Thanks MaxSeven!) off the bracelet and on a nato so far... 

Chris did a great job with the cases on this series, especially lug length and overall height, and I am watching closely for the next run of subs. I hope to pick up a Nacken Modern if he restocks that version (hint hint).


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Mods please delete


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)




----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

watch wars: the latest chapter









revenge of the devil ray
coming soon to a wrist near you
DevilRay, Black​


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I've been wearing the modern blue Nacky the last couple of days and man alive, it is so damn comfortable even on the bracelet. So light and thin, it really is just a joy on the wrist.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jhacker (Jan 9, 2018)

hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Those skeleton hands ROCK!! I really like how the shape of the snowflake hands ties in with the design of the skeleton 3-6-9-12 markers.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Be still my heart. Someone noticed! The skeleton hands on the Santa Fe are the only way to roll. Honestly, you can't read it for ..... at night--the nuclear lume overpowers the skinny handset, but who cares. When the lights are out, I'm asleep or otherwise occupied in non-timed events.


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

Duplicate


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

Does anybody have a pic comparing the size of the NTH subs against a 42 or 44mm diver?

I love the look of the NTH Barracuda and am trying to convince myself the size will look OK for me. The Orthos Comnander with its 42mm case and 22mm lugs are perfect for me, but I'm now thinking the smaller NTH may also work for me.

Obviously I'll need to source one / trade one privately as the're all sold out now.

_#ShouldHaveJustBoughtTheBarracudaDespiteBeingUnsureOfTheCaseSizeAndLugWidth_

PS sorry if a size comparison has already been posted - I did search, couldnt find anything, however, I accept it could have been user error on my behalf


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I managed to get the Nacken out in the water today. I have more practical watches to wear with a wetsuit but I wanted to see how comfortable the Nacken is under the glove. It wasn't too bad at all. I don't know that I'd make it my go-to surf watch, but it's nice to know that if I happen to be wearing it and decide to go surfing it will work. A NATO would be more practical, but I am totally grooving on this bracelet so I don't want to switch it out. It's just so light and comfortable compared to, say, my Chris Ward. That bad boy would take me right to the bottom, left arm first.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Toonces said:


> I managed to get the Nacken out in the water today. I have more practical watches to wear with a wetsuit but I wanted to see how comfortable the Nacken is under the glove. It wasn't too bad at all. I don't know that I'd make it my go-to surf watch, but it's nice to know that if I happen to be wearing it and decide to go surfing it will work. A NATO would be more practical, but I am totally grooving on this bracelet so I don't want to switch it out. It's just so light and comfortable compared to, say, my Chris Ward. That bad boy would take me right to the bottom, left arm first.


That is truly kickin', get amongst it Mate!!

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



watchuck said:


> Does anybody have a pic comparing the size of the NTH subs against a 42 or 44mm diver?
> 
> I love the look of the NTH Barracuda and am trying to convince myself the size will look OK for me. The Orthos Comnander with its 42mm case and 22mm lugs are perfect for me, but I'm now thinking the smaller NTH may also work for me.
> 
> ...


Here are some pics of a Nacken and a DevilRay at 44mm (wears more like 42):










The NTH subs are awesome and don't feel small at all. The Orthos (42mm and thicker) feels bulkier, but the dial/bezel size does not feel bigger. The subs have some of the best diver proportions I've seen.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Toonces said:


> I managed to get the Nacken out in the water today. I have more practical watches to wear with a wetsuit but I wanted to see how comfortable the Nacken is under the glove. It wasn't too bad at all. I don't know that I'd make it my go-to surf watch, but it's nice to know that if I happen to be wearing it and decide to go surfing it will work. A NATO would be more practical, but I am totally grooving on this bracelet so I don't want to switch it out. It's just so light and comfortable compared to, say, my Chris Ward. That bad boy would take me right to the bottom, left arm first.


Dammit. I was hoping you looked more like Spicoli in real life.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's the one!! This should get into production!

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



watchuck said:


> Does anybody have a pic comparing the size of the NTH subs against a 42 or 44mm diver?
> 
> I love the look of the NTH Barracuda and am trying to convince myself the size will look OK for me. The Orthos Comnander with its 42mm case and 22mm lugs are perfect for me, but I'm now thinking the smaller NTH may also work for me.
> 
> ...


I can put my Oberon next to my Ocean 1 and A1 when I get home


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Iliyan said:


> Here are some pics of a Nacken and a DevilRay at 44mm (wears more like 42)
> 
> The NTH subs are awesome and don't feel small at all. The Orthos (42mm and thicker) feels bulkier, but the dial/bezel size does not feel bigger. The subs have some of the best diver proportions I've seen.


Thanks, pics are good... think im going to dust off my buying/trading hat and do some searching for a Barracuda


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I got my hands on a DevilRay........










This watch is very comfortable on the wrist. It wears smaller than I expected considering its size. There are so many elements to love on this watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

watchuck said:


> Does anybody have a pic comparing the size of the NTH subs against a 42 or 44mm diver?
> 
> I love the look of the NTH Barracuda and am trying to convince myself the size will look OK for me. The Orthos Comnander with its 42mm case and 22mm lugs are perfect for me, but I'm now thinking the smaller NTH may also work for me.
> 
> ...


The 40 in the sea of 42's

Hope it helps


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



watchuck said:


> Thanks, pics are good... think im going to dust off my buying/trading hat and do some searching for a Barracuda


That one will be tough to find. I think Doc only made 25 of them IIRR. Mine is staying with me...

Skip










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

An update on the condition of my "new" 3-headed dawg, Cerberus.

Well, it looks like the original diagnosis of fleas was the correct one, as he's gaining about 4 minutes a day. A quick Google came up with a test for a magnetised watch, this requires the use of a compass to sniff out the "fleas"; the following photos show the compass prior to the test and after the watch is placed close to it, when you can see a sizable deflection of the needle, yep, this indicates that this dawg has those magnetic "fleas".

Compass prior to test.








Compass needle is deflected by magnetised watch proximity - diagnosis - deffo magnetic fleas.








The errant dawg - Cerberus








Prescription, order a demagnetiser immediately!!

So a demagnetiser (£7-00 inc. shipping) is now winging it's way from China, until then, Cerberus will be quarantined. As soon as the demagnetiser arrives, Cerberus will have a magnetic hose-down to flush out those pesky fleas and then, if he behaves and keeps time, he can join his mates in the rotation. Can't wait to take this really fine looking dawg walkies.

To be continued.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

The lumetastic Azores










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Phoenix103 (Dec 29, 2017)

Like the watch... don't know the brand is it a microbrand?


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Phoenix103 said:


> Like the watch... don't know the brand is it a microbrand?


Do you not know the brand, or do you not understand what the big deal is?

More obvious trolling I have not seen in some time, rookie.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Phoenix103 said:


> Like the watch... don't know the brand is it a microbrand?


Hmmm, you asked me about the brand a few days ago, did I not give you enough info?
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=45280107


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I think he's a bot.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...seek.com/showpost.php?p=45316021&share_type=t

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Everett464 said:


> I think he's a bot.
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...seek.com/showpost.php?p=45316021&share_type=t
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


With 100 posts you get eggroll.

And the ability to post pics.

And a FS thread.

Just sayin'...


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> With 100 posts you get eggroll.
> 
> And the ability to post pics.
> 
> ...


Mmm... eggrolls.

That's a good point. I went back and looked- probably not a bot. Just post spamming.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Everett464 said:


> Mmm... eggrolls.
> 
> That's a good point. I went back and looked- probably not a bot. Just post spamming.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I could literally murder a couple egg rolls right now.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> With 100 posts you get an egg roll


'bout damn time we got some silly-ass food tangent runnin' here...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Everett464 said:


> I think he's a bot.
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...seek.com/showpost.php?p=45316021&share_type=t
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Troll account, has to be. bashing nth in other threads, has a baby for a profile pic.. pretty obvious, no?


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Ragl said:


> An update on the condition of my "new" 3-headed dawg, Cerberus.
> 
> Well, it looks like the original diagnosis of fleas was the correct one, as he's gaining about 4 minutes a day. A quick Google came up with a test for a magnetised watch, this requires the use of a compass to sniff out the "fleas"; the following photos show the compass prior to the test and after the watch is placed close to it, when you can see a sizable deflection of the needle, yep, this indicates that this dawg has those magnetic "fleas".
> 
> ...


Excellent post. Thank you.

This thread is usually about fun and frolics but every now and again I read something that makes me sit up.

Informative, innit.

Ric


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



azsuprasm said:


> 'bout damn time we got some silly-ass food tangent runnin' here...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I made these last night.

MMMMMMMMM............deviled eggs with red onion, hot mustard, mayo, creme fraiche, tabasco, Hungarian paprika, scallion and Black Capelin Caviar.

I'm sure Docvail would love it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ratfacedgit said:


> I made these last night.
> 
> MMMMMMMMM............deviled eggs with red onion, hot mustard, mayo, creme fraiche, tabasco, Hungarian paprika, scallion and Black Capelin Caviar.
> 
> I'm sure Docvail would love it.


I'm sure he wouldn't.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Silly me, I forgot a photo.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

I traded back for my amphion..









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Mil6161 said:


> I traded back for my amphion..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd like to have my Scorpène back. Or an Amphion.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

I have some regrets about letting my Nacken Vintage Blue go. Though I'd one day perhaps like to add a Scorpene or Barracuda.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I could literally murder a couple egg rolls right now.


Everett can send them my way instead. After that description my breakfast is no longer adequate.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

I sol my Nacken Vintage Blue once and immediately regretted it - bought another within weeks. I don't find myself missing my Vintage Black or Santa Cruz too much although sometimes a photo of the Santa Cruz can bring a tear to my eye...


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ryan92084 said:


> Everett can send them my way instead. After that description my breakfast is no longer adequate.


Are you a style influencer? Imma need you to justify the effort with platitudes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Everett464 said:


> Are you a style influencer? Imma need you to justify the effort with platitudes.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I choose the clothes my toddler wears. I think that counts.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Iliyan said:


> Hmmm, you asked me about the brand a few days ago, did I not give you enough info?
> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=45280107


He's still hoping for info on the in-house movement. At those prices, it's the least you'd expect...


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

MaxIcon said:


> He's still hoping for info on the in-house movement. At those prices, it's the least you'd expect...


It is totally in-house - in this guy's house:


----------



## organika (May 1, 2017)

Quick question - I'm on the nth newsletter and occasionally pop on this site/thread to look for a blue nacken FS. It seems like the only way to get one of these is to keep an eye out in the FS threads or wait until the next pre order? Just want to make sure thats the case.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

organika said:


> Quick question - I'm on the nth newsletter and occasionally pop on this site/thread to look for a blue nacken FS. It seems like the only way to get one of these is to keep an eye out in the FS threads or wait until the next pre order? Just want to make sure thats the case.


Get the WatchRecon app and set up an alert for "Nacken."


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

docvail said:


> It's not just the gold watch, it's also those hairy hands.
> 
> What the hell? Is he part hobbit?
> 
> Filthy hobbitses. We hates them!


***DISCLAIMER*** If you choose to follow the links/info below, it may lead to very upsetting information; the choice is yours ***

Guys, I've been sitting on this information since January 8th. On that day, my life was turned upside down, my heart broken, and my and my children's life forever changed. I've been wanting to "vent" and to "put it out there" for a long time, but didn't feel good about posting the information directly. Now the information is available via a link, so you can choose to click on the link or not. (edit: I'll give instructions at the bottom of this post instead of a direct link)

Suffice it to say that I've been an absolute wreck for the past 1.5 months or so.

And, as I've quoted Doc above, all the information in the link at the bottom of this post refers not to this watch, but the "hairy hobbit hands" it belongs to. People have asked what kind of a man wears a watch like this... well....








Google search "Johnny Amani" to find out. There is a link for an "abc15" news article. Most of the information there is correct. I know all parties involved.

Had to get this off my chest.

On a completely unrelated note, and to get back on topic... how about this:


----------



## Jake West (Jan 13, 2017)

JakeJD said:


> Get the WatchRecon app and set up an alert for "Nacken."


Suggest adding 'NTH' & 'Modern Blue' to the alerts. People sometimes tag the pieces differently. I was after a Marinemaster 300 but found a number of listings that only appeared if I typed 'SBDX017'.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

kendalw3 said:


> snip


Damn dude.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Damn dude.


Ditto

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kendalw3 said:


> ***DISCLAIMER*** If you choose to follow the links/info below, it may lead to very upsetting information; the choice is yours ***
> 
> Guys, I've been sitting on this information since January 8th. On that day, my life was turned upside down, my heart broken, and my and my children's life forever changed. I've been wanting to "vent" and to "put it out there" for a long time, but didn't feel good about posting the information directly. Now the information is available via a link, so you can choose to click on the link or not. (edit: I'll give instructions at the bottom of this post instead of a direct link)
> 
> ...


Kendal, sorry to read of what's gone on, and what no doubt is going on, either for your wife and her family or your sister and hers/yours.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

ryan92084 said:


> Damn dude.


Yeah, absolutely. I hope things get better for you.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Every day is a new day. We have good days and had days. But at least he isn't a threat anymore. Still a long way to go before it is "resolved" but we are working through it.

I appreciate your concerns and empathy, thank you!

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

Whoa. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

I have no will power... another L&H going into the collection. 

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## organika (May 1, 2017)

Jake West said:


> Suggest adding 'NTH' & 'Modern Blue' to the alerts. People sometimes tag the pieces differently. I was after a Marinemaster 300 but found a number of listings that only appeared if I typed 'SBDX017'.


Awesome, cheers guys.


----------



## tissotguy (Oct 31, 2014)

Hmmmm....sexy....thin profile...









- _Style Influencer

:-d_


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

DevilRay in da house!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I hear ya, Tissotguy. My Nacken has become my go-to work watch because it just slides so smoothly under a dress shirt sleeve.

It is definitely a keeper.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Haven't posted in a long while here. Was reconnecting with the OG today.




























"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

QC by the numbers - Janis Trading Company


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> QC by the numbers - Janis Trading Company


Very informative Doc, thanks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Love the last part about blaming the wife.....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> Love the last part about blaming the wife.....


If only I was joking.

(Hint - I wasn't.)


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

EL_GEEk said:


> Haven't posted in a long while here. Was reconnecting with the OG today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like that strap! Where did you get it?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> QC by the numbers - Janis Trading Company


Good Lord, you got through a whole day of QC, then you wrote 3000 words about QC??

Maybe you were born for this.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Very interesting article.


----------



## Baxter (Sep 17, 2014)

docvail said:


> QC by the numbers - Janis Trading Company


Great article! Thanks


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> Good Lord, you got through a whole day of QC, then you wrote 3000 words about QC??
> 
> Maybe you were born for this.


I think it was less than 3000.

Dude, I write. It's always been something I was good at, like making love to a beautiful woman (also something I'm good at). When you're good at something, it comes easy, and you do more of it.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> I think it was less than 3000.
> 
> Dude, I write. It's always been something I was good at, like making love to a beautiful woman (also something I'm good at). When you're good at something, it comes easy, and you do more of it.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.











My bad, it's 2,847 words. I'm not as much of a natural at estimating word count as you are at QC, writing about your passions, or loving the beautiful women.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> View attachment 12915425
> 
> 
> My bad, it's 2,847 words. I'm not as much of a natural at estimating word count as you are at QC, writing about your passions, or loving the beautiful women.


I'll have to add "word count estimation" to my list of humble-brag topics.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

This means the Devil Ray shipments are imminent, no? Itching to get my whilver.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> QC by the numbers - Janis Trading Company


As an engineer in the semiconductor biz, we are exposed to a seemingly infinite number of quality-plan-of-the-year programs. Eventually, you reach the conclusion that it's not so much about following the specific program that's in vogue at the time as it is integrating the goals of those programs on a day to day basis. A journey, not a destination.

Anyway, I took a quality training class many years ago, where the instructor posed the question "How do you define quality?" After lots of responses from lots of people, he told us "Quality means meeting the spec." If there's a problem, check to see if it's called out in the spec. If not, you need to either deal with it or change the spec.

He got quite a lot of argument about that, but it's one of the clearer lessons in my mind.

It's not so easy to define with the judgement calls on small production lots like these watches, especially with subjective things like lume evenness, bezel action, and such. That's where the experienced hand makes the call, and that's not something everyone can be trained to do.


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm also in the semiconductor industry. Small world.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

kendalw3 said:


> I'm also in the semiconductor industry. Small world.


Arizona for you, and Silicon Valley for me. At least Arizona still has some serious industry going still. Silicon Valley has been Software Valley for some years now. There are still a few holdouts here, luckily for me...

There must be others!


----------



## kendalw3 (Aug 27, 2014)

MaxIcon said:


> Arizona for you, and Silicon Valley for me. At least Arizona still has some serious industry going still. Silicon Valley has been Software Valley for some years now. There are still a few holdouts here, luckily for me...
> 
> There must be others!


Yep, AZ has a bunch but it seems a lot moved from silicon valley to Oregon or Austin. CA is too expensive!

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kendalw3 said:


> I like that strap! Where did you get it?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


Thanks. It's from Stone Creek Straps. It used to belong to @HWA but since he sold his Ricardo, it is now mine 

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

What's up with the DevilRay? - Janis Trading Company


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> What's up with the DevilRay? - Janis Trading Company


A former mentor of mine liked to say, "It takes 1 woman 9 months to have a baby. You can't put 9 women in a room and get a baby in 1 month. There's a process for everything, and you can't rush it."

I find this statement terrifying in its potential if the opposite were true.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

docvail said:


> When you're good at something, it comes easy


I saw what you did there.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

MaxIcon said:


> It's not so easy to define with the judgement calls on small production lots like these watches, especially with subjective things like lume evenness, bezel action, and such. That's where the experienced hand makes the call, and that's not something everyone can be trained to do.


This, to my mind, is where a brand, and NTH, makes its money. You buy a watch, talk about it, and get a sense of the kind of product the owner considers representative of his/her perception of quality. And then you vote with your wallet on the next watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> As an engineer in the semiconductor biz, we are exposed to a seemingly infinite number of quality-plan-of-the-year programs. Eventually, you reach the conclusion that it's not so much about following the specific program that's in vogue at the time as it is integrating the goals of those programs on a day to day basis. A journey, not a destination.
> 
> Anyway, I took a quality training class many years ago, where the instructor posed the question "How do you define quality?" After lots of responses from lots of people, he told us "Quality means meeting the spec." If there's a problem, check to see if it's called out in the spec. If not, you need to either deal with it or change the spec.
> 
> ...


Some guy on FB was giving me a hard time because my company (or maybe he meant the entire industry) isn't ISO 9000 compliant.

I read a bit of the overview of ISO 9000. You all can to, if you care. Here's a link - ISO 9000 - What Is ISO 9000? A Standards Series | ASQ.

My reading comprehension may not be what it once was, but the salient line which jumped out at me is this one (the first one) -

"ISO 9000 is a set of international standards on quality management and quality assurance developed to help companies effectively document the quality system elements to be implemented to maintain an efficient quality system."

In other words, as I read it, the ISO doesn't set QC standards for anything, it only sets the standard for DOCUMENTING a company's system for doing QC.

So, it doesn't tell me how far off the alignment of a bezel insert can be, it just tells me that if I want to be ISO 9000 compliant, I have to write down how far off it can be.

Eff ISO, right in the a-hole, all 9000 of them.

That is literally - not figuratively - the most uselessly bureaucratic comment anyone has ever made to me, and I'm saying that as someone who served in the military, and worked in one of the world's most heavily regulated industries (investments).

I don't know if he bothered to read my blog post or not. If he did, I guess he didn't catch the part where I said there's no industry standard for QC, at least not one I'm aware of, and if there is one, I'm pretty sure I'd be aware of it.

I further guess that he's not entirely familiar with the nuances involved in QC'ing watches, where there's a mix of machine production and human assembly, perfection isn't the standard we go by for everything, and the customer base can be a bit OCD-ish.

There are certain things which are cut-and-dry. The movement is either running within spec, or it isn't. The clasp is installed right-side-up, or upside-down. Just about everything else is a judgment call.

Does it seem like my QC judgment is lacking?

Yes, if I was determined to do so, I could come up with a fixed set of standards, for everything, and create tools for measuring it all, but it seems a bit over-the-top in this context - we're generally seeing 100% "perfection" in 99% of the pieces we receive from our factory, and the 1% which aren't 100% perfect are well within 0.5% of it.

Why do I need to create a set of rigid standards and complex tools to determine which of the pieces in that 1% are close enough to perfection, and which aren't, when we are literally - again, not figuratively - talking about such tiny deviations, all of which are unavoidable, if you understand the limitations of manufacturing and human assembly?

At best, I'd just be creating a set of standards and tools we'd use to quantify our uncertainty, if not increase it, by calling into question whether or not the standards are realistic, and whether or not we're correctly using the tools.

Even if, hypothetically, I did come up with some set of standards and tools, and started to use them to reject more pieces in QC, the only possible result is my costs go up, immediately, and by a lot, which means the prices my customers pay go up, immediately, and by a lot. There is no other outcome possible.

Again, I'm reminded why I need to hire someone to take over my social media duties. I'm not saying everything I read on social media is stupid. What I'm saying is that the longer I'm on social media, the more I feel like everything I read is stupid, and there's a point at which I have to admit that part of the problem is me, no matter how stupid anyone else may be.

I may not be stupid, but social media makes me feel like it.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Nacken got another workout today.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

More on the topic of QC, a peer pointed out this video from Omega, and added this comment about it:

"Watch the video... and then show it to your customers when they complain about our QC... There's fluff attached to one of the hands, the smearing of paint on the inside of the O on Omega, not to mention so many specs of dust, so obviously on the dial as the seconds hand glides over them! - saw this on a group, it's interesting people are realizing this is obviously paid by Omega."


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

docvail said:


> Eff ISO, right in the a-hole, all 9000 of them.


Well, I'm glad we have that taken care of. Next!



docvail said:


> I'm saying is that the longer I'm on social media, the more I feel like everything I read is stupid, and there's a point at which I have to admit that part of the problem is me, no matter how stupid anyone else may be. I may not be stupid, but social media makes me feel like it.


#thebotsareworking ;-)


----------



## Mr.Joseph (Nov 7, 2017)

nar·cis·sist
ˈ


a person who has an excessive interest in or admiration of themselves.
"narcissists who think the world revolves around them"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Horoticus said:


> Well, I'm glad we have that taken care of. Next!
> 
> #thebotsareworking ;-)


Seriously. How did we get here? Does anyone remember when common sense died? Is it too late for a zombie-resurrection of it?

"Here's what we do for QC."

"Wait, you're not ISO compliant?!?!?"

"Is there an ISO for QC?"

"Yes! ISO 9000!"

"Awesome. What does the ISO say about how far off of 100% perfect is acceptable for a watch's handset or bezel insert?"

"Oh, it doesn't tell us that. That's for you to decide. It just says how you need to document that decision, once you made it."

"So...I get to make up my own standards for QC?"

"Yes, but to be ISO compliant, you have to document them according to ISO 9000...and of course, pay an ISO certification expert (that's me), to certify that you're ISO-compliant."

"What does that entail, you watching me do QC, to make sure we're doing it right, and following the standards we made up ourselves anyway?"

"Ohhhh, nooooo...I just need to see your ISO-compliant QC standards documentation."

Yadda, yadda, yadda, and that's how the humans talked themselves into extinction, son.

If there's an afterlife, I hope my grandfather isn't watching me entertain this nonsense. I'm sure he'd have thrown half the nitwits I talk to down a flight of stairs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr.Joseph said:


> nar·cis·sist
> ˈ
> 
> 
> ...


You're either calling me a narcissist, or suggesting I'm dealing with some.

Either way, you may be right.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

docvail said:


> Seriously. How did we get here? Does anyone remember when common sense died?


Well, I could suggest a particular date...However, I would have enjoyed chatting with your grandfather about how the nitwits might "use" the stairs. :-!


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> If only I was joking.
> 
> (Hint - I wasn't.)


Good thing that she never looks at this forum....


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

So Doc, after reading the update on the website, your posts here, and the update email I just got, the message I'm getting is "Hey guys, bug me for more updates!"

BTW, been rocking majestic beast non-stop for two weeks. Loving it on this strap:


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Doc,
Speaking for myself I really don’t care how hard the bezel is to turn, as long as it turns. I rarely turn mine on any of my watches that have them, Rolex, Doxa, Borealis. But that’s just me.
any update on the Nazario? Shipping early maybe? Just asking.


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)

Nikita70 said:


> any update on the Nazario? Shipping early maybe? Just asking.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

I do some QC work in an ISO9001 compliant company. I'm no expert, but I've seen it in action and get the gist of how it is supposed to work. The purpose is to ensure that everyone working in a company is working to the same standards. Like Doc said, it doesn't tell you anything about what the standards need to be, only that the standards need to be documented, filed in a sensible and consistent manner, reviewed when required, and that everyone who works to those standards needs to knows where to find the tolerances, and can access them easily. The deliverable it is expected to result in, is that all products be to the same minimum benchmark set by the company, regardless of which employee is on duty that day.

It makes sense for a large company like Seiko, to ensure that the products checked by employees X, Y and Z in factories A, B and C are to the same standard expected and set by the HQ.
If employee X is a perfectionist but employee Y is slack, and employee Z makes his decisions based on his mood on the day, QC will be all over the place. ISO ensures that all employees are equally tolerant towards misaligned chapter rings. Proudly brought to you by paperwork.

In the case of NTH... ISO is irrelevant because Doc doesn't need to write down the tolerances and file them in such a way that all other Docs working for Doc are on the same page as Doc. Unless we need him to start talking to himself. Hasn't he suffered enough?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

So I lived through the scam of the ISO 9000 during the 80's. Biggest money scam for the agencies who did the audits.

ISO 9k is a process where a company documents how they do everything, and then has to create a paper trail to show that they indeed do what has been documented. Then to get the qualifications you have to get an ISO 9k auditor to come in and take their sweet ass time to go through all your documents to say yes you did follow your procedures. The qualifications last 6 months. Then you get to do it all over again!!

The process improves nothing!

If you were a company making concrete life preservers that killed people, as long as you proved you did everything according to your procedures you were golden!!

This was a program created in Europe back in the early 80's, and of course every US company suddenly wanted to get it too in order to be considered as a competitor to foreign business as the specs started including the requirement that bidders must be ISO certified.

Biggest scam ever. From Europe! The place Americans left to come to be free!! We should have just kicked those commie auditors back to France with a tattoo sayin "USA don't play"!! If you want us to come over and win your next world war don't try to bury us with your paper dogma!!

Rant over.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> So I lived through the scam of the ISO 9000 during the 80's. Biggest money scam for the agencies who did the audits.
> 
> ISO 9k is a process where a company documents how they do everything, and then has to create a paper trail to show that they indeed do what has been documented. Then to get the qualifications you have to get an ISO 9k auditor to come in and take their sweet ass time to go through all your documents to say yes you did follow your procedures. The qualifications last 6 months. Then you get to do it all over again!!
> 
> ...


Looks like someone has a severe case of I'm from Jersey!

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Coriolanus said:


> So Doc, after reading the update on the website, your posts here, and the update email I just got, the message I'm getting is "Hey guys, bug me for more updates!"
> 
> BTW, been rocking majestic beast non-stop for two weeks. Loving it on this strap:
> 
> View attachment 12917237


I know you said this was a Gekota, but which one particularly? I love the look.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> QC by the numbers - Janis Trading Company


That's tremendously informative and candid Doc, thanks for sharing.

It's amazing how anal we WIS can get about the most minimal stuff an yet we expect a basically one man operation to have the same QC that brands at least 10 times the price, and still guys like you still do it, lots of respect.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Hear hear as I raise a glass of fine French wine!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Rhorya said:


> Hear hear as I raise a glass of fine French wine!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Which was certainly not iso 9000!

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## tissotguy (Oct 31, 2014)

Time for another pic...as a result of QCed :-!


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Seriously. How did we get here? Does anyone remember when common sense died? Is it too late for a zombie-resurrection of it?











Oh, yeah, here's today's watch. BTW, how ARE those Nazarios doing???


----------



## Mr.Joseph (Nov 7, 2017)

For anyone on the look out for a Barracuda, I just came across this listing : NTH Barracuda Diver Root Beer Automatic Sapphire Crystal 40mm Mens Watch | eBay


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Regarding common sense:

Person buys watch. Receives watch and it has obviously been worn before. Contacts company. Company say they are out of stock and sends the buyer a prepaid label. Buyer complains on here about how angry he is. (Why?). Others agree and say he should contact PayPal. I ask why and someone says they should have given a full refund and let him keep the watch. Because keeping a customer happy is better then loosing the potential thousands this awesome would spend with them.

Am I the weirdo in this?


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Holy SHAAAAAAAT!!!! This thing is freaking awesome. And this is just the proto???

Nicely done Chris. The execution is fantastic.










"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

In case anyone is interested, and you missed it, Sujain and I linked up in NY this past weekend, and did an impromptu panel discussion with the guys from the Urban Gentry, and Marvin Menke from Hemel.

It wasn't planned, but mobiles came out, and it was live-streamed to Facebook and IG. John Keil from WatchGauge uploaded the FB feed to YouTube:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Regarding common sense:
> 
> Person buys watch. Receives watch and it has obviously been worn before. Contacts company. Company say they are out of stock and sends the buyer a prepaid label. Buyer complains on here about how angry he is. (Why?). Others agree and say he should contact PayPal. I ask why and someone says they should have given a full refund and let him keep the watch. Because keeping a customer happy is better then loosing the potential thousands this awesome would spend with them.
> 
> Am I the weirdo in this?


No, you're not the weirdo in this.

Many people don't seem able to understand what's fair, in the "eye for an eye" sense. Many lost the lesson in that one, namely, it shouldn't be a life for an eye, only an eye for an eye.

Suggesting that a company should be penalized, heavily, simply because the customer was inconvenienced, but ultimately not harmed, is simply immature.



EL_GEEk said:


> Holy SHAAAAAAAT!!!! This thing is freaking awesome. And this is just the proto???
> 
> Nicely done Chris. The execution is fantastic.
> 
> ...


Cheers, Marcos. Glad you like it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Regarding common sense:
> 
> Person buys watch. Receives watch and it has obviously been worn before. Contacts company. Company say they are out of stock and sends the buyer a prepaid label. Buyer complains on here about how angry he is. (Why?). Others agree and say he should contact PayPal. I ask why and someone says they should have given a full refund and let him keep the watch. Because keeping a customer happy is better then loosing the potential thousands this awesome would spend with them.
> 
> Am I the weirdo in this?


No, you're not the weirdo in this.

Many people don't seem able to understand what's fair, in the "eye for an eye" sense. Many lost the lesson in that one, namely, it shouldn't be a life for an eye, only an eye for an eye.

Suggesting that a company should be penalized, heavily, simply because the customer was inconvenienced, but ultimately not harmed, is simply immature.



EL_GEEk said:


> Holy SHAAAAAAAT!!!! This thing is freaking awesome. And this is just the proto???
> 
> Nicely done Chris. The execution is fantastic.
> 
> ...


Cheers, Marcos. Glad you like it.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Hey, Doc double posted- everyone gets a free watch? 

Hey, what were we talking about again? 

100% discount for a screw up like that? That sounds reasonable... to a millennial maybe, or someone who is very nostalgic about how great customer service was back in the day when they walked to school 10 miles uphill, both ways, in the snow, in July. Actually, back then they would have sent you a Rolex to fix the mistake.

It is said that common sense can't be taught. That's BS. Sure, much of it's learned from experience and by watching others. It's hard to learn when you are stuck on an ipad or phone, or your parents are too.(Says the man typing on his phone while his kid is quietly eating breakfast while looking at her iPad.) ...., sorry people, apparently my kid is right... I am to blame.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Keeper of Time said:


> I know you said this was a Gekota, but which one particularly? I love the look.


The Simon Vintage Aviator. On sale for $12ish still, I believe.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> In case anyone is interested, and you missed it, Sujain and I linked up in NY this past weekend, and did an impromptu panel discussion with the guys from the Urban Gentry, and Marvin Menke from Hemel.
> 
> It wasn't planned, but mobiles came out, and it was live-streamed to Facebook and IG. John Keil from WatchGauge uploaded the FB feed to YouTube:


Great discussion.

As an aside, every time I see TGV, he looks a little more like Willem Dafoe.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Great discussion.
> 
> As an aside, every time I see TGV, he looks a little more like Willem Dafoe.


Goddamitall. I'm never going to be able to look at him again and not think of Willem Dafoe.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Mr.Joseph said:


> For anyone on the look out for a Barracuda, I just came across this listing : NTH Barracuda Diver Root Beer Automatic Sapphire Crystal 40mm Mens Watch | eBay


That's a good price on that one IMO

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> Goddamitall. I'm never going to be able to look at him again and not think of Willem Dafoe.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


Next time you see him see if you can get him to say "Can Spiderman come out and play?" in his best Green Gobby voice.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

EL_GEEk said:


> "Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"
> 
> Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


Stahhhp!!! I haven't even received my turquoise yet and you've got me wishing that I bought black instead! It looks so good!


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

EDIT: Duplicate post. Deleted.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Coriolanus said:


> Stahhhp!!! I haven't even received my turquoise yet and you've got me wishing that I bought black instead! It looks so good!


Get them both 

Just FYI this is the prototype and not a production run model.

I haven't seen the others but the Black dial is fanfreakingtastic .

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Coriolanus said:


> Stahhhp!!! I haven't even received my turquoise yet and you've got me wishing that I bought black instead! It looks so good!


The black definitely strikes me as the "classy" option. Much more so than the renders indicated, likely because of the dial curvature secreting away the depth gauge. Still no regrets on my turquoise choice. Ratfacedgit and the others who had a visit from the turquoise prototype made sure of that



docvail said:


> In case anyone is interested, and you missed it, Sujain and I linked up in NY this past weekend, and did an impromptu panel discussion with the guys from the Urban Gentry, and Marvin Menke from Hemel.
> 
> It wasn't planned, but mobiles came out, and it was live-streamed to Facebook and IG. John Keil from WatchGauge uploaded the FB feed to YouTube:


I always enjoy these little (in scope not length, hah) insights. Now where to I apply to be your customer service whipping boy?


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

imagine a funny GIF of Defoe dancing from Boondock saints!! facksakes will not work.



docvail said:


> Goddamitall. I'm never going to be able to look at him again and not think of Willem Dafoe.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

The versatility on the Devil Ray is pretty freaking great.

Seiko Rubber strap









Cheapest NATO Straps




































"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

How about some leather?...










"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> So I lived through the scam of the ISO 9000 during the 80's. Biggest money scam for the agencies who did the audits.
> Biggest scam ever. From Europe!


This made me chuckle. Over here in Yurp, we blame any hare-brained business practice on you lot over in 'Merica!

We give you regulatory compliance bullcrap (AKA 'lend me your watch and I'll tell you the time') and you give us MBA business practice bullcrap (AKA 'I'll piss down your back and tell you it's raining).

You see? We've got a two-way Transatlantic bullcrap exchange going on here. Oh, and we only paid back our WW2 Lend-Lease debts a couple of years ago, whereas you showered the Germans and Japanese with Benjamins. That's a special relationship for you. Ha ha ha.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



LordBrettSinclair said:


> This made me chuckle. Over here in Yurp, we blame any hare-brained business practice on you lot over in 'Merica!
> 
> We give you regulatory compliance bullcrap (AKA 'lend me your watch and I'll tell you the time') and you give us MBA business practice bullcrap (AKA 'I'll piss down your back and tell you it's raining).
> 
> You see? We've got a two-way Transatlantic bullcrap exchange going on here. Oh, and we only paid back our WW2 Lend-Lease debts a couple of years ago, whereas you showered the Germans and Japanese with Benjamins. That's a special relationship for you. Ha ha ha.


Sorry I can't hear your pithy British accent over the sound of our awesome freedom over here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

EL_GEEk said:


> How about some leather?...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That looks super-good. Quite probably one of the best looks for the devilray yet.

Annd... what strap is that?


----------



## kirkryanm (Jan 5, 2016)

EL_GEEk said:


> The versatility on the Devil Ray is pretty freaking great.
> 
> Seiko Rubber strap
> 
> ...


Well, that pushed me over the hump. Ordered.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> That looks super-good. Quite probably one of the best looks for the devilray yet.
> 
> Annd... what strap is that?


Thanks, I do like this combo a lot. Sadly I have no idea where the strap is from. I got it from a watch purchase years again and I never figured it out.

The previous owner didn't mentioned, I forgot to ask. It is actually a very well made strap.



kirkryanm said:


> Well, that pushed me over the hump. Ordered.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're welcome. Happy to help

Now Chris you can put my 15% commission into my account 

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> Sorry I can't hear your pithy British accent over the sound of gunfire.


Fixed that for you.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



LordBrettSinclair said:


> Fixed that for you.


Love the smell of gunpowder in the morning!! Smells like victory! Why it hasn't smelled this good since we ran off a bunch of redcoats. Too bad we haven't gotten that tea stain out of the harbor in Boston though. But no worries since that's where we keep the USS Constitution just in case some Wiggies are looking for another lesson in the failure of imperial colonialism.

Since this is a Watch forum, in deference to our host "Doc" Vail, who is also a patriot and veteran like myself, here is a picture of a Watch I built. You'll notice the subtle use of color like red, white and blue!! 










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Great photos of the DR on some other straps- thanks for that. I love the Seiko rubber dive strap and that leather strap in the pic with the cigar. I didn't think the DR would look good on leather from the pics on the bracelet, but that looks pretty fantastic.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Happy 1k post!!



Rhorya said:


> Love the smell of gunpowder in the morning!! Smells like victory! Why it hasn't smelled this good since we ran off a bunch of redcoats. Too bad we haven't gotten that tea stain out of the harbor in Boston though. But no worries since that's where we keep the USS Constitution just in case some Wiggies are looking for another lesson in the failure of imperial colonialism.
> 
> Since this is a Watch forum, in deference to our host "Doc" Vail, who is also a patriot and veteran like myself, here is a picture of a Watch I built. You'll notice the subtle use of color like red, white and blue!!
> 
> ...


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Red, white and blue... I say old chap, but are those not the same colours of the Union Jack?

You won your war of independence. Yeah!

But, you should also note that you really didn't fare that well against the Brits in the war of 1812. Britain was fighting the Napoleon in Europe and the US, on the side, in NA. Almost bankrupted your government because you couldn't get anything out of Conus due to the superiority of the Royal navy. When the war in Europe was finished, and the possibility of the Brits turning their full attention to you, peace was sought.

Benefits... The USA and Britain started trading, so everyone was financially happy. The home of the president got a fresh coat of paint, a new name, and someone wrote a song about it,and it became your anthem.

And to appease the masses...
I don't wear this as often as I used to, but it still brings a smile to my face every time I put it on.









Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Red, White, Blue, Brown, Yellow, Black, Tan, Green... they all look good on the Devil Ray


















"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

And another of the Angle-of-the-Saxon steams in to the fray:

An update on progress with my favourite dawg - Cerberus. Well, the demagnetiser arrived mid-week, so let's plug it in and see what happens:

















Literally a 5 second exposure to the demagnetiser and Hey Presto!! - no deflection of the compass needle, but are those magnetic fleas totally flushed out?? A few days on the wrist will tell. I gently shook the watch for a minute or so to get it started, set the time with my mobile Dog & Bone as a time reference and then wore the watch for the next few days, and the result?

A check today showed that Cerberus is ever so slightly slow over those 3 days, going on the minute hand, a totally positive outcome considering it was running 4 to 5 minutes a day _fast _before. I don't know to the second how Cerberus stands, because I'm really not into that COSC malarkey, but consider this, the watch wasn't fully wound and was only charged from the rotor whilst being worn, I have now fully wound the watch manually and will keep it under surveillance over the next few days to see how it performs, I don't think that I will be disappointed.

Am I happy you ask? You betcha, I am absolutely delighted that I took the risk with a potentially moody Flea-Bay purchase and now I have this very stylish, sharp watch that carries a bit of attitude too - total result.









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

macosie said:


> Red, white and blue... I say old chap, but are those not the same colours of the Union Jack?
> 
> You won your war of independence. Yeah!
> 
> ...


Sorry I lost you after we won the war of independence!! 

And now I'm dying to get my hands on my new Black Dial Devil Ray!!

Cheers!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> what strap is that?


So, the strap has a branding. I don't k ow much about straps , so if you or anyone here knows, please chime in.









"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Getting out of my car in the garage, I checked the time. Funny thing how something like lume can make a grown man smile.









Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

More: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-devilray-4413242-8.html#post45386159


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> More: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-devilray-4413242-8.html#post45386159


DevilRay says, "Best. Review. Ever."

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Goddammit, Chris. Watches don't talk. How many times does my watch have to tell you this?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Hey Doc, technical question. I have a watch case that was supposed to be made for an eta 2824-2 movement. This means the dimension of the crown tube centerline to the internal dial rest Shoulder should be at 2mm. If the case measures 3mm, is there another movement that would fit? I have no experience with Miyota only eta


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Hey Doc, technical question. I have a watch case that was supposed to be made for an eta 2824-2 movement. This means the dimension of the crown tube centerline to the internal dial rest Shoulder should be at 2mm. If the case measures 3mm, is there another movement that would fit? I have no experience with Miyota only eta
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Saw your PM first. Sent the reply there.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Been looking at the pickies of the Devilray, Chris. A triumph, kudos to you and your design team.

Also well impressed with the gifted photo skills of behind those early pickies.

Great, innit.

Ric


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> Been looking at the pickies of the Devilray, Chris. A triumph, kudos to you and your design team.
> 
> Also well impressed with the gifted photo skills of behind those early pickies.
> 
> ...


Cheers, mate.

If you can't have good photo skills, cultivate friendships with those who do.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Cheers, mate.
> 
> If you can't have good photo skills, cultivate friendships with those who do.


Or kidnap their pets.

Ric


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

https://mailchi.mp/janistrading/devilray-production-update-early-delivery-869765?e=[UNIQID]


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I was hoping for mine to arrive closer to my Bday (end of June) anyways so do what you have to and thanks for the heads up.



docvail said:


> https://mailchi.mp/janistrading/devilray-production-update-early-delivery-869765?e=[UNIQID]


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

docvail said:


> https://mailchi.mp/janistrading/devilray-production-update-early-delivery-869765?e=[UNIQID]


YOU'RE TEARING ME APART AAAAAAAAAAGH


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VF1Valkyrie said:


> YOU'RE TEARING ME APART AAAAAAAAAAGH


Are you doing "The Room" with that, or an earlier reference?

I only ask because my son recently became semi-obsessed with "The Room". We went to see "The Disaster Artist" as a family, and bought him a DVD of "The Room" for Christmas. I've yet to watch it, but seen clips on YouTube.

For anyone reading, and without any idea what I'm talking about, "The Room" was an insanely bad film, written by, produced by and starring enigmatic mystery-man and wannabe celebrity Tommy Wiseau. It's so bad it's funny.

It was so bad it somehow became a cult classic, with late-night showings including all the pageantry and cosplay which typically accompany showings of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show".

"The Disaster Artist", starring James Franco, is the Hollywood, bigger-budget film which tells the backstory behind the making of "The Room", and the people involved, Tommy, his friend and co-star, the other actors, the production people, etc.

It includes several shot-for-shot reproductions of scenes from the original movie, and I've been told that like Tommy Wiseau, Franco not only starred in it, he also directed and produced it, and he did it all while staying in his Wiseau character, sort of a movie within a movie within a movie.

They even replaced one of the actors in the movie, and didn't re-shoot his scenes, just like in the original film. If you can appreciate absurdity in film, theater and art, The Disaster Artist is a masterpiece of the genre. I don't know how commercially successful it's been, but I admire Franco's commitment to the project, especially not breaking character, even when he was behind the camera.

It was pretty hysterical, and "You're tearing me apart, Lisa!", "Oh, hi, Mark!" and various other lines from either/both films can frequently be heard around my house.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I forgive you.


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

docvail said:


> Are you doing "The Room" with that, or an earlier reference?
> 
> I only ask because my son recently became semi-obsessed with "The Room". We went to see "The Disaster Artist" as a family, and bought him a DVD of "The Room" for Christmas. I've yet to watch it, but seen clips on YouTube.
> 
> ...


Way older, Rebel Without a Cause.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Are you doing "The Room" with that, or an earlier reference?


I plumbered up posting this previously, so it'll be missed. But if you haven't seen the movie, here's an "Honest Trailer"...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VF1Valkyrie said:


> Way older, Rebel Without a Cause.


Yeah, that's why I asked.

Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon time -

"You're tearing me apart" was a key line in both movies. In "The Disaster Artist", there's a scene depicting Tommy Wiseau (played by James Franco) doing an overly dramatic rendition of that scene from "Rebel" in an acting class.

That over-the-top performance was the catalyst for the friendship with his "Room" co-star, the friendship led to the making of "The Room", and Wiseau went out of his way to pay homage to that line by including it in his own (awful) script.

In 2001, there was a made-for-TV biopic about James Dean, featuring a break-out performance by a future Hollywood A-lister. Wanna guess who that was?

None other than James Franco, writer, director, producer, and star of "The Disaster Artist".


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I had never hear of "The Room" before The Disaster Artist. An example of real life being stranger then fiction.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> , sort of a movie within a movie within a movie.


I see what you did there...









All the other things are waaaaay too meta for me, though. Franco playing James Dean who has been taglined by Wiseau and then playing Wiseau taglining JD ... wait:










Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I know I cannot take a photo worth a damn!! Especially after all the amazing ones from Marcos (El_Geek). However, that being said I am enjoying taking the Orange DevilRay on my business trip.

Soeul, South Korea:



















Khabarovsk, Russia:










Sakhalin, Russia:










This watch is awesome!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I plumbered up posting this previously, so it'll be missed. But if you haven't seen the movie, here's an "Honest Trailer"...


I can't decide if that trailer makes me want to see it, or not see it.

Seth Rogen played a smartass production guy in The Disaster Artist. His main purpose seemed to be uttering all the deadpan observations any normal person would have while watching The Room being shot, or while watching the film, just in case anyone overlooks how bizarre it all is. He had all the best lines.

Highly recommend The Disaster Artist.

The Room is a judgment call. Don't blame me if it drives you insane.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## DarkShot (Aug 5, 2013)

This thing has been marvelous to wear.


----------



## accidentalsuccess (Aug 24, 2014)

^^^^that looks SOOO good on the orange NATO! Summer is coming...somewhere. For now, vintage amphion on phenomenato (very highly recommended, btw).


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I just noticed you are in some hick down in Ontario. GTA GTG and we will meet up with ya...LOL I wanna touch it.



DarkShot said:


> This thing has been marvelous to wear.


----------



## dpage (Dec 24, 2010)

docvail said:


> https://mailchi.mp/janistrading/devilray-production-update-early-delivery-869765?e=[UNIQID]


Chris
I never got this email; update?
Dan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dpage said:


> Chris
> I never got this email; update?
> Dan


The last time a guy told me he didn't get one of our email updates, I looked him up in our subscribers list, and it said he'd unsubscribed from our list.

We had a good laugh about that.

Wanna guess why you didn't get the update?

EDIT/PS - (Hint: You unsubscribed).

I can't re-subscribe you, because that would defeat the purpose of someone unsubscribing. The system won't let me. You have to go back and re-subscribe.

And then, don't unsubscribe.

C'mon, I send that newsletter out maybe 6 times a year. It's mostly for pre-order delivery updates. Sometimes it's entertaining. I can't possibly be the guy who sends you more email than anyone else, the one you just can't deal with anymore.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Apropos of nothing in particular, aside from yet another installment in the never-ending saga of "what makes you think your watch is worth $X?"

What NTH and Lew & Huey are all about. - Janis Trading Company


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

So what was wrong with the turquoise and orange Devil Rays?


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Any news on the new NTH subs? Colors, designs? I know Doc you are probably up to your neck in Devil Ray busy-ness and “new venture”staff. TIA


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeCfromLI said:


> So what was wrong with the turquoise and orange Devil Rays?


I'm kinda over all the over-sharing.

Things weren't right. Things will be fixed. All you need to know. I'll worry about the rest.



skipwilliams said:


> Any news on the new NTH subs? Colors, designs? I know Doc you are probably up to your neck in Devil Ray busy-ness and "new venture"staff. TIA
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I am up to my neck in many things - DevilRays, yes, but I just received the bulk of the Spectre II production today, I'm weeks into a website re-do, in the middle of moving all my inventory to a new warehouse, working on some new models, and trying to figure out a bunch of other things, while trying to finish my taxes, and gather the info my kid's school requires every year for student aid.

When will we make more NTH Subs?!?!?!? - Janis Trading Company

When I catch my breath, I'll talk about the next batch of Subs. Until then, anything I do, say, or reveal only creates more activity, and more questions/discussion, which is more time I have to spend on social media, which is just work, and I don't have time for it now.

Sorry, I just need everyone to realize, I'm working as fast as I can, and don't have the bandwidth to do what I need to do, AND explain it all, answer all the questions, etc.

When I'm ready and able to do the work involved, you'll see what I've been up to.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> The last time a guy told me he didn't get one of our email updates, I looked him up in our subscribers list, and it said he'd unsubscribed from our list.
> 
> We had a good laugh about that.
> 
> ...


Dude. You are the wall-o'-text devil hisself. Just one of your emails is way too effin' many. Even without pictures, it takes 10 minutes to download. We know you're busy; don't encourage us to break your balls when you're already in a bad mood.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> I know I cannot take a photo worth a damn!! Especially after all the amazing ones from Marcos (El_Geek). However, that being said I am enjoying taking the Orange DevilRay on my business trip.


Thanks man. But you are capturing it in your places I can't 

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

hwa said:


> ...Even without pictures, it takes 10 minutes to download...


Bro, I know you feel like that AOL 28.8Kbps modem is a "classic model", but it's seriously time to consider an upgrade...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Posted elsewhere, but deffo worth posting here for Phantom Friday, from a snowbound & freezin' Shropshire........









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Coriolanus said:


> Bro, I know you feel like that AOL 28.8Kbps modem is a "classic model", but it's seriously time to consider an upgrade...


I've got a US Robotics HST modem I'll let go cheap! Very low mileage in the last 20 years or so...


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> I'm kinda over all the over-sharing.
> 
> Things weren't right. Things will be fixed. All you need to know. I'll worry about the rest.
> 
> Kind of a shame the story is what drew me in.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Kind of a shame the story is what drew me in.


After the DevilPig incident, I would share less about future watches too. But don't worry, Doc likes to write, so we will still get at least some of the insider stuff that gas drawn us to his watches.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I'm kinda over all the over-sharing.
> 
> Things weren't right. Things will be fixed. All you need to know. I'll worry about the rest.


Ah, I guess that makes sense - some of the sahring stuff has, after all, caused issues. On the other hand, that has also attracted a lot of people to the l&h/nth brands.

But, ofc - if sharing stuff means exposing secrets etc., ofc it's not productive to do. 
On the other hand, there's a lot of knowledge that doc could share (openly) without harming his own stuff, and helping out the community. E.g. - like, how do you judge quality, knowing what's easy-to-do and what isn't? We tend to talk a lot about fit-and-finish on the forums, and... what does that mean to watchmakers?

Also, the Orion guy mentioned that there are certain grades of sapphire crystal. Is that a thing? Do sapphire crystals vary in some way between themselves?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Morning coffee time and catching up on all the forum chatter. Since the Devil Ray is taking a little while longer to come to fruition I'll just make do with this for now. Knowing Doc, when those Devils hit the streets they will be awesome!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

X2-Elijah said:


> Ah, I guess that makes sense - some of the sahring stuff has, after all, caused issues. On the other hand, that has also attracted a lot of people to the l&h/nth brands.
> 
> But, ofc - if sharing stuff means exposing secrets etc., ofc it's not productive to do.
> On the other hand, there's a lot of knowledge that doc could share (openly) without harming his own stuff, and helping out the community. E.g. - like, how do you judge quality, knowing what's easy-to-do and what isn't? We tend to talk a lot about fit-and-finish on the forums, and... what does that mean to watchmakers?
> ...


Really? I don't know if this is a serious request? 
I personally think Doc has shared enough. I don't know of another microbrand watch owner who shares more about owning a watch company or responding to WUS posts in great lengths. The Orion post was defending , not so much educating .

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't want to discuss what issues we found in the DevilRay because, in my experience, people often take a sliver of information, and make wild leaps of connection and assumptions.

If, hypothetically, I found some problem with ____ in 20% of them, but I fixed those 20%, later on, people will email me suggesting that _____ was wrong in their watch, and we missed it in QC, or that ______ was also wrong in some other model, when it wasn't. 

They'll suggest it's a common issue with micros, or my brand, or my factory, etc. "Micros always have ____ because, reasons, micro, muh Swiss", etc.

Does Ford tell you when they get a bad batch of transmissions, even after they've sent them back to the transmission supplier? No, they don't. They just send them back, get new ones, install them, and sell you the car.

You don't need to know what I found that wasn't right. All you need to know is that I found some things that weren't right, but I'm making sure they're right before we ship.

Let me do my job (it's what you're paying for), and decide what's worth sharing, and what should not be shared.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Went to the National Aquarium today and thought it best to be ready for the worst. #AlwaysBePrepared









I wish I'd still had the Devil Ray to bring along, so I could fit in with this crowd better.








(Sea turtle, manta ray, stingray)


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Saturday Night Devil action



















"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

They look so good on color matching (close enough) straps!


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> I don't want to discuss what issues we found in the DevilRay because, in my experience, people often take a sliver of information, and make wild leaps of connection and assumptions.
> 
> If, hypothetically, I found some problem with ____ in 20% of them, but I fixed those 20%, later on, people will email me suggesting that _____ was wrong in their watch, and we missed it in QC, or that ______ was also wrong in some other model, when it wasn't.
> 
> ...


Yeah, If it isn't something cool/funny like some accidental crazy color combos I really couldn't care less assuming everything gets worked out. Now if it is some super special crazy color Devil Ray where can I potentially throw some money


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Sporting the Barracuda today. Man this is a nice watch










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

docvail said:


> ...As an example, one Phantom version was 5...


B-dial Date DLC incoming to add to the A-dial Date DLC prototype and a SS Ghost Rider Date.

Can't wait for Phrydae.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Dayum! I really like that Ghost Rider.


----------



## brian2502 (May 29, 2014)

Love mine as well..


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Chose the Spectre on its summer shoes to go sell some books today.









Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> Chose the Spectre on its summer shoes to go sell some books today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What bracelet is that?

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> What bracelet is that?
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


Off a Seiko Recraft SNKN41.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



macosie said:


> Off a Seiko Recraft SNKN41.
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


Cool. Thanks. The flared link got me curious.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Cool. Thanks. The flared link got me curious.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


See doc, you had me worried there with the unsubscribe talk, but it's posts (from India this time) like these^^^ that will keep pullin' you back. It's a bit like Hotel California round here. We all appreciate having you here.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Cool. Thanks. The flared link got me curious.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


It's getting hot here, so I put several of my watches on metal. Summer drops my rotation to 10 watches. 
I'm indifferent to the snkn41 on that bracelet, it's a nice watch, just never got worn, and I wanted to wear the Spectre. I like the combo. 
The Seiko wears a 22mm mesh which looks better, so both watches get worn.
That said, I do prefer the Spectre on its original leather, but will wait for cooler days to switch back.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*









#NTHSUBSv3.0


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Forever8895 said:


> #NTHSUBSv3.0


I only regret that I have but one like to give to this post...


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

azsuprasm said:


> Can't wait for Fannum Phrydae!


And here they are on...

Sting ray, Ostrich and Python.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yep. Subs 3.0.










Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Barracuda blue FTW. Those things are going to sell like hot cakes.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Madre de Dios...


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> Yep. Subs 3.0.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You bastard.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Perdendosi said:


> You bastard.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


You misspelled "shut up and take my money!"

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Lets not get hold up into version 3 just yet. I still need my black nacken date from watch gauge first 

JK these look great, love the blue scorpene


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


>


Great googly moogly 

Sunray blue Scorpene! *swoon*


----------



## kingcarlos (Nov 26, 2015)

wish the orange dial one can be in blue like this

https://shop.analogshift.com/products/tudor-submariner-as01929


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Your most recent Devil Ray update has made me far too irrationally angry to ever say "looking sweet" about the upcoming subs. I'm not saying you should promise me deep discounts to keep my frothing, seething, and nigh unquenchable rage about you still being on track for the original timeline from blowing up every bit of social media in existence... but you should definitely do it.



/s although I imagine that might be a little too close to the truth.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

JakeJD said:


> Great googly moogly
> 
> Sunray blue Scorpene! *swoon*
> ]


I seem to have an abnormal attraction to blue watches. That damn blue Scorpene is pure temptation. I've sold 3 blue watches because I had a hard time working them into my rotation, and it was hard enough to say no to the blue Spectre... 
I like the new batch...
Today I'm wearing the Aragon I bought to satisfy my yearning for the Santa Cruz... still yearning. The Aragon is the 'anti-Cruz'... It's huge(50mm), it's thick, it's heavy. I thought it was just a colour combo thing, but I was wrong. Other than the weight, it's not a bad watch, but it's a constant reminder of what it's not... it's not a Santa Cruz.









Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That Scorpene is the queen of the bunch. Honestly...what a stunner. I'm not sure I can resist. 

What seals it? The 12 at 12 o'clock. Seriously...it's that simple.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Blueracuda? Can that be a thing?


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Slightly off-topic, and this isn't necessarily going to sell more watches, but:


We're just recently showing our house that's for sale, and so I had to lock up all my watches to prevent a theft. I'm not a "extra watch" guy, so I went through the collection and picked one watch to rule them all.

The choice? The NTH Nacken Modern (blue). I've been wearing this exclusively for about two weeks now, and I have to say, this might be the perfect watch. I am straight up in love with this timepiece/chronometer. And with the drilled lugs, a strap change would be a snap, but honestly, the bracelet is so damn light and comfortable I'm just chuffed to bits on it as is.

Seriously, this timepiece is just donkeys.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just to change things up a bit: I just bought a (very) slightly used NTH Mint Azores. This will be on my wrist for a while....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

You all will get no logical segue from me...

We recently found a couple of very small differences / improvements between the DevilRay prototypes and the production version.

One was that the crown on the production version is slightly longer.

The other is that there's an all but impossible to quantify difference in the beveled edge of the crystal, which makes the depth gauge more visible when looking at the watch straight on (and brings the case thickness back to the originally expected 14mm).

Production on left, 14mm thick, crown 3.5mm, depth gauge visible straight on.

Proto type on right, 13.5mm thick, crown 2.9mm, depth gauge not visible straight on.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

azsuprasm said:


> And here they are on...
> 
> Sting ray, Ostrich and Python.
> 
> ...


Sounds like the beginning of a corny joke...a stingray, an ostrich and a python go into a bar...



Coriolanus said:


> Barracuda blue FTW. Those things are going to sell like hot cakes.


Apparently inspired by the "Moflake"...












Toonces said:


> Madre de Dios...


Si. Is muy bueno.



Perdendosi said:


> You bastard.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Nope. Pretty sure my 'rents were married. I've seen pics.



DuckaDiesel said:


> Lets not get hold up into version 3 just yet. I still need my black nacken date from watch gauge first
> 
> JK these look great, love the blue scorpene


Yep. Just gotta put one awesome foot in front of the other...



JakeJD said:


> Great googly moogly
> 
> Sunray blue Scorpene! *swoon*


Giggity!



kingcarlos said:


> wish the orange dial one can be in blue like this
> 
> https://shop.analogshift.com/products/tudor-submariner-as01929


I wish I was taller.



ryan92084 said:


> Your most recent Devil Ray update has made me far too irrationally angry to ever say "looking sweet" about the upcoming subs. I'm not saying you should promise me deep discounts to keep my frothing, seething, and nigh unquenchable rage about you still being on track for the original timeline from blowing up every bit of social media in existence... but you should definitely do it.
> 
> /s although I imagine that might be a little too close to the truth.


Ugh. This post gave me cancer.



Coriolanus said:


> Blueracuda? Can that be a thing?


I don't see why not.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> You all will get no logical segue from me...
> 
> We recently found a couple of very small differences / improvements between the DevilRay prototypes and the production version.
> 
> ...


This makes me quite happy!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I will probably regret this but here goes...

In the comments under my post if the new Subs on Instagram, someone said they would like to see more white dials.

One, I'm not that into white dials, so, it's a little more difficult to come up with white dialed Subs.

Two, we did the Santa Fe, which was a pretty faithful homage to the Heuer night subs, and the Santa Cruz, which was a mashup of various influences, taken from the Rolex 6205 "Oreo", mostly, but updated with Yachmaster-esque colors and a waffle dial lifted from elsewhere in the Rolex lexicon.

So...what else is there to do, white-dial-wise?

I think HWA was lobbying for a black bezel, matte dial version, more faithful to the original 6205 (pic below). I think I told him to stop before we got to whether it would be white on white markers/dial or vintage on white, full lume debates, etc.










Before all the suggestions start cascading in, allow me to rule some things out right away.

Bezel colors - the steel inserts are PVD/DLC. Our color choices are limited to blue, shades of gray/black/clear/metallic, a number of shades of gold, plus a handful of brownish shades ranging from amber to sort of purple.

That means no green and no red, which are the two colors people ask about most frequently.

We don't necessarily need to find an existing example from within the Rolex/Tudor history, though I do like to have some existing reference as a foundation for an NTH Sub version if possible.

That would include taking something with a different dial color and making it white, though I'd need a better reason to consider an idea than simply "make this, but white", nor do I want to imply that every version of the NTH Subs might be made in a white dial version. Ideally, there's a design begging to be white-washed.

So..."white" dials...ideas? It isn't often I welcome input publicly. This is your window of opportunity to be a part of the process.

Oh, I suppose we could also consider silver, if it spurs ideas.

Feel free to add ideas for dial finishes, textures, color fades, etc.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

I like the newer one showing more of the color ring( is it the final design?)...but either is fine. Amphion for me today...and a friend of mine wants you to make a yellow nth... just saying









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


> I like the newer one showing more of the color ring( is it the final design?)...but either is fine. Amphion for me today...and a friend of mine wants you to make a yellow nth... just saying
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Yes, the pic shows a production version next to the prototype.

A yellow Sub?

Pull the other one.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> So...what else is there to do, white-dial-wise?


White dial Oberon, as a mash up of vintage Explorers and Subs?










Honestly with the Santa Cruz and Santa Fe, I think you nailed the white dial Subs. It's very hard to make it right with white dial and diver watch, and both the Santa Cruz and Santa Fe are among the best of all the Subs IMO


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> White dial Oberon, as a mash up of vintage Explorers and Subs?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not that I wouldn't do a white 3-6-9 dial, but something about the Rolex-style 3-6-9 just never did it for me personally, so I'd want to see that there was enough interest in it before I asked Aaron or Rusty to develop the idea.

One idea I was somewhat thinking about was "Polar", like a mashup of GMT Explorer II and Yachtmaster, but maybe there's an AirKing set of updated 3-6-9 numbering to add in there...





















Here again, HWA had separately suggested a stainless bezel, and a 12-hour bezel.

So I was thinking maybe the Explorer II GMT-style bezel, but just a 12-hour rather than 24, and rotating, obviously, but I'd have to figure out if it would just be black numbering (no lume), or something else. Maybe we do a mix of the 3-6-9 from the modern Explorer/AirKing, not sure if it would be stick markers or circles for the other hours, maybe a red seconds hand, a la the Yachtmaster or GMT hand on the ExpII...

Or, maybe skip the red seconds hand, make the 3-6-9 Orange, like on the prototype Acionna we never produced, but with the updated font from the AirKing/Explorer, and make the seconds hand orange, which would add a bit of old-school AirKing/Milgauss vibe...





















So...picture a modern 3-6-9 dial with the other markers being sticks (like the white/black AirKing), big triangle at 12, all orange (like the Milgauss), with an orange seconds hand, and a stainless steel 12-hour bezel, maybe more like the Yachtmaster steel-on-steel than the GMT ExpII...maybe we can stamp the insert, so the numbers are indented, and fill them with the same metallic-look lume we use on the crowns, so you get Yachtmaster sort of steel-on-steel look in the daylight, but good glow in the dark...


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Congrats on these awesome new versions. My personal fav is the näcken with the fumed dial and the perfectly positioned date window - it just blends in.

As you said, new ideas are welcome? How about a gmt bezel on the subs? Can you do bi-color in the bezels? Eg Batman with your shades of blue and Black? Just asking! Don't flamewall of text me away! I can accept a simple „no" as an answer 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Doc love you but you suck bro.....

I was hoping that a Nacken blue rebirth would happen. I want to say I am upset about the fact that YOU forgot to include this to the sub 3.0 list.

Now I am obsessing over the Scorpene or Blupene and the Gradient Nacken or is it the Nackient, Graden? 

Whatever anyone calls them they are GORGEOUS!!! So now I need a Nacken Blue, Scorblue, and a Nackengradisexah!!!

Thanks A lot doc!! Thank you!! 

BTW I love the black strap with the Spectre 1. My toes are curently curling typing this,...bwahaha 

Not the bourbon typing btw..it would be my Bourbon driven fingers


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

A. Im always right.

B. If you disbelieve me, see below. :mic drop:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Or here, if you prefer dlc and sticks:









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Or if you need more white dials:









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Congrats on these awesome new versions. My personal fav is the näcken with the fumed dial and the perfectly positioned date window - it just blends in.
> 
> As you said, new ideas are welcome? How about a gmt bezel on the subs? Can you do bi-color in the bezels? Eg Batman with your shades of blue and Black? Just asking! Don't flamewall of text me away! I can accept a simple „no" as an answer
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.


It always feels/sounds weird to me when people congratulate me on an illustration of something I haven't produced yet. It's just a drawing Aaron whipped up. Until I sell and deliver them, and people are happy with them, I don't feel I deserve congrats.

But, thanks, I'll keep them in reserve.

GMT Bezel?

If you mean "poor-man's GMT", well, yeah, as I said, I'm considering a 12-hour bezel, i.e, the poor-man's GMT bezel.

If you literally mean a 24-hour GMT bezel - why would I do that with a 3-hand movement?

If you're suggesting a GMT movement - it won't work, because the Subs' case would only *theoretically* fit the ETA 2893 GMT, which would make it a $900 retail price, and even at that, we'd have to do some re-engineering to get the ETA movement married to the Subs' case.

I actually started to look at this with Rusty, how we could accommodate either the 9015 or ETA movement in one case, and it was do-able, if not "easy", but I quit the idea as soon as I realized the retail price I'd have to charge.

I don't see the business case for the work we'd need to do to get the ETA into the Subs' case, when I'd be lucky to sell 100 pieces at $900, and it might take me a year to move them all. I don't want to think about the stupid online debates with guys carping about my $900 GMT when they can get a Hamilton GMT for $700, or whatever.

Bi-color bezels aren't easily accomplished with the steel inserts. The inserts are PVD coated, so the two colors would have to be two separate pieces, then married together during assembly, when it would be a challenge to get the two pieces perfectly lined up with each other AND the dial, and we'd still likely have an obvious seam where the color change happened.

It's something I've looked at, and discussed with my factory, but without finding a good solution yet.

It's easier with ceramic, but, A) I don't think the Sub's case would accommodate a ceramic bezel insert, and B) even if it did, I'm not a fan of ceramic bezel inserts, from a manufacturer's perspective, because if one cracks or shatters, the entire assembly - insert, plus underlying ring - would likely need to be replaced, rather than just the insert itself.

It's effectively the difference between changing a tire and re-mounting a new tire on the wheel, balancing it, aligning it, etc. I'd have to invest more in replacement parts, which is all wasted money if they're not needed, and we'd probably end up doing most of the replacement work ourselves, rather than selling the part which almost anyone can swap in. I'd rather avoid complicating my life that way.

No flames.



Ojibway Bob said:


> Doc love you but you suck bro.....
> 
> I was hoping that a Nacken blue rebirth would happen. I want to say I am upset about the fact that YOU forgot to include this to the sub 3.0 list.
> 
> ...


So...you're making the same assumption a lot of people seem to be making, judging by some of the comments I've gotten on social media.

I just showed you 5 new designs, right?

Did I say I wouldn't make more of any of the others?

I didn't.

I may make more of some of the other Subs versions within the next batch. I'm undecided at the moment. I'll almost certainly make more of many of the Subs' versions in another production, perhaps starting later this year.

I don't think it's a good idea for me to have two dozen different Subs versions available at all times, or to have 3-4 versions which share a lot of similarities, such that they're almost interchangeable.

I think it's better to have a smaller number of versions available, so that I don't give people too many choices, and I don't get a skewed view of real demand, which is what happened when I released the first batch of 8 Subs designs. That was just too many to do at once.

This is just 5 new versions of the Subs. For now, that's all you know. Don't assume anything else. Don't look to fill the information void with what you think I'm doing.

I don't even know for sure what I'm doing. When I know, I'll say so, then you'll know.

Glad you like the strap. Hope it serves you well. It's the last one, so...yeah, good luck with it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

But, honestly, the Santa Fe kills it. Very hard to nail a white dial. Doc did it. Ive not seen better.

Except this is pretty freakin' nice.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ME [thinking to myself]: "Do I really want to mention that HWA proposed all these ideas? You know how he gets..."

HWA:



hwa said:


> A. Im always right.
> 
> B. If you disbelieve me, see below.
> 
> :mic drop:


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

Damn that Scorpene looks hot!!! You know I'm a sucker for Sinn, and I never got into their 556 because of their 38.5 mm (or so) size. I already have a couple of blue dial watches but man... ... (sweating). Seems like blue will be a theme for me this year (have a Pastel Blue from Halios pre-ordered + your Spectre + a Deep Blue lol!)

Regarding white dial... I LOVE white dial watches. I think you have done great ones too including the Orthos Ice White which I regretted selling the minute I went to USPS to ship the box! Like another poster mentioned, your Santa Cruz and Santa Fe are great offerings. A matte dial (no texture) would be a great addition. I really like what Nodus did with their very very limited polar Trieste, the details just... pop! Your design choices based on the Explorer and Air King sound awesome to me and I can't wait to see a computer proto drawing on that one. I got the Santa Cruz because it actually reminded me of the Explorer... I wouldn't mind seeing your ideas (or other posters) come to fruition.

BTW --> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-...trading-docvail-2914058-394.html#post29852306 lol!


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

hwa said:


> Or if you need more white dials:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Out of curiosity, what exactly is this?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> But, honestly, the Santa Fe kills it. Very hard to nail a white dial. Doc did it. Ive not seen better.
> 
> Except this is pretty freakin' nice.
> 
> ...


1. I think the Santa Fe works because it's not pure white. It has that hint of greenish yellow, and the rice paper dial texture came out REALLY nice. I almost don't even think of it as "white", unlike the Santa Cruz, the prototype of which ended up in my wife's collection, because, again, I don't seem to get on with white dials very well. The Santa Fe did earn a place in my personal collection, though, next to the white/silver Acionna and whilver DevilRay, so...I think it's the little touches of color that make a white dial design.

2. Blue on white (like that PAM) is something I see a lot of people like. It never did much for me, personally, but...I asked Aaron to whip up the "AirGauss" white-orange Sub I described above, to see how it looks. If it looks right, then, perhaps, there could be a version with blue in place of the orange, OR, a less-blue version, if that's just too much blue, something more like that PAM, where there are blue accents.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> .
> .
> .
> .
> ...












Wait...what?
.
.
................
.
.
.
???????










(It sounds very complicated, so I just made this for fun)


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



SteamJ said:


> Out of curiosity, what exactly is this?


NOS Lip EPSA case, ETA 2836, my custom dial design (thanks praz nazri for execution), @jelliotz assembly. 
(And thanks @***** for inspiration with the mkii-dialed beauty)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> Wait...what?
> .
> .
> ................
> ...


Basically, that, but add the 6, and invert the raised/recessed bezel surface, so that the numbers are indented, allowing them to be lumed, and make them a 12-hour bezel, rather than a 60-minute.

Handset? My first thought was MilSub style sword hands, sort of a nod to the "American" MilSub Bill Yao did with MKII, because it had stick markers (and I'm just now noticing it also had a 12-hour bezel), because I'm still not a fan of Merc hands, and because snowflake hands will maybe make it like a Bizarro-world Tudor Black Bay Bronze. I like snowflake hands, but not with that big 3-6-9, which just looks weird to me.















Usually, orange lume isn't very bright, but Tritec (makers of Swiss Superluminova) have developed an orange version of their new X1 lume, so my hunch is that it would be bright enough to please the lume-freaks.

Dial finish? Maybe matte, I guess, but maybe the rice-paper which worked well on the Santa Fe, or maybe something more silver-white sunburst, to give it a bit of that old radial-numbering AirKing vibe.









I've loved both this older version of the AirKing and the MilGauss for a while, and been trying to figure out how to do something like them for about as long.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Throwing this out there... Polar Scorpene: white dial/bezel, with either orange or light blue markers. Sorry, did these in paint... just inverted colours and filled.

disclaimer... these are not Doc's proposed dials... Not official Janis designs... Just a hack. 



















Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I would love to see a white dial black bezel Amphion, with the dial either matt or full lume BGW9. I very nearly bought a Santa Fe, but the dial was a little too green for me.

By the way, I am loving the blue Barracuda!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

azsuprasm said:


> And here they are on...
> 
> Sting ray, Ostrich and Python.
> 
> ...


Love that Ghost Rider on the python. Still kicking myself on not getting the Ghost Rider.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

macosie said:


> Throwing this out there... Polar Scorpene: white dial/bezel, with either orange or light blue markers. Sorry, did these in paint... just inverted colours and filled.
> 
> disclaimer... these are not Doc's proposed dials... Not official Janis designs... Just a hack.
> View attachment 12963793
> ...


Bravo

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Yes, I was talking about that poor mans gmt before, as I thought a true gmt version would require change of movement. And by this the case would need modification what would require changes in production line. Should've specified this. Your insights go along with my assumptions.

As for the bi-color bezels: correct me if I am wrong or thinking of it too simple: but isn't the coloring process the one where the metal is submerged in a liquid and then everything is connected to a magical eletric field and then it comes out blue (or black or red or whatever). Isn't it possible to just dip it HALF the way? And then dip the other half in the other color? No? Perhaps it isn't THAT simple, otherwise you would've done it already....

As to my congratulations: i should've specified this as well. I meant „congrats for these nice renders, they look very promising for what to expect when it comes to the real deal. Based on your last renderings and what came out after that I am pretty much sure the real watch will look even better. And congrats for the decision to go with fumed blues and dates and blued-out scorpene" - better? 

I am no writer, so, apologies.

And I am not much of a learner, it's obvious. 

 cheers !

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Looked at this one, it reminded me of one thing, which lead to another... hence the name. Anyone make the connection?
(By the way Doc, if you want me not to do this with your designs, let me know and I'll take down the posts.)


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Attention in the area: 12 hour bezel with a date window. That is all.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

No interest in using a mix of lume and H3 tritium T100?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

These designs always caught my eye.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Maybe Doc has changed his philosophy, although I doubt it, but I recall reading one of his posts where he said that the surest way to guarantee that something was not made was to post a request or a render here. That was somewhere in the early days of this thread, I think.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

I do believe there is a market for white dial (enamel white?) with black bezel. The White dial Sinn 104 is difficult to get ahold of due to it selling so well.

I also like the idea of this hypothetical white dial watch being a scorpene variant. Stark black/white contrasts. BGW9 lume with black borders.

No orange lume. I suspect the market for orange lume is very niche.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> Maybe Doc has changed his philosophy, although I doubt it, but I recall reading one of his posts where he said that the surest way to guarantee that something was not made was to post a request or a render here. That was somewhere in the early days of this thread, I think.


Doc put us up to this.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Love the idea of a white 369! But I really like 369 dials. I feel like the white dials need that contrasting dark bezel tho, to really make the dial pop compared to white or steel bezels.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



macosie said:


> Throwing this out there... Polar Scorpene: white dial/bezel, with either orange or light blue markers. Sorry, did these in paint... just inverted colours and filled.
> 
> disclaimer... these are not Doc's proposed dials... Not official Janis designs... Just a hack.
> View attachment 12963793
> ...


No white bezels in the available color choices.

Otherwise, it's do-able.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> As for the bi-color bezels: correct me if I am wrong or thinking of it too simple: but isn't the coloring process the one where the metal is submerged in a liquid and then everything is connected to a magical eletric field and then it comes out blue (or black or red or whatever). Isn't it possible to just dip it HALF the way? And then dip the other half in the other color? No? Perhaps it isn't THAT simple, otherwise you would've done it already....


That isn't the process.

PVD stands for Physical VAPOR Disposition. Vapor, as in gas, not liquid. The whole part goes into a chamber, and gets coated. Like I said, to get bi-color, you'd need two separate parts, fitted together.

With a 12-hour bezel, and the bi-color divide going across the middle, you'd have a line going through the 3 and 9, I guess, though that wouldn't seem to make much sense if the line is meant to divide night and day. In that context, a bi-color 12-hour bezel wouldn't make a lot of sense. I'd think it would make more sense to do bi-color with the 15-minute decomp section of a 60-minute bezel.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> View attachment 12964413
> 
> 
> Looked at this one, it reminded me of one thing, which lead to another... hence the name. Anyone make the connection?
> (By the way Doc, if you want me not to do this with your designs, let me know and I'll take down the posts.)


It's cool. I asked for suggestions.



dmjonez said:


> Attention in the area: 12 hour bezel with a date window. That is all.


Pffffft!!!!

Why would I put a date window on the bezel?



Rhorya said:


> No interest in using a mix of lume and H3 tritium T100?


None whatsoever.

Not a fan of tritium tubes, generally. Never say never but the quality of tritium tubes can vary wildly, and importing them is a b1tch.

No thanks.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Maybe Doc has changed his philosophy, although I doubt it, but I recall reading one of his posts where he said that the surest way to guarantee that something was not made was to post a request or a render here. That was somewhere in the early days of this thread, I think.


It's cool in this case. I asked for suggestions.

It's a bit different than the out-of-nowhere, unsolicited idea which might be something I'd do, but not something I'm prepared to do NOW, which makes the timing of the suggestion less than helpful, and making the suggestion something my competitors will likely use before I can.



Cosmodromedary said:


> I do believe there is a market for white dial (enamel white?) with black bezel. The White dial Sinn 104 is difficult to get ahold of due to it selling so well.
> 
> I also like the idea of this hypothetical white dial watch being a scorpene variant. Stark black/white contrasts. BGW9 lume with black borders.
> 
> No orange lume. I suspect the market for orange lume is very niche.


I disagree. I think orange on white is a great combo, and there is a market for orange lume. Even if it's very niche, it's not like I'd make 300 pieces with orange lume. I might make 30.

Stark black on white has never done it for me, personally.



skunkworks said:


> Love the idea of a white 369! But I really like 369 dials. I feel like the white dials need that contrasting dark bezel tho, to really make the dial pop compared to white or steel bezels.


Well, the white bezels are out of the question, so all of the proposed ideas would need to be changed.

Stainless, with no color, is an option, as is black, or blue.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Hmmm. Raw steel 12-hour bezel? Where’ve i heard that suggested (and shot down)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Hmmm. Raw steel 12-hour bezel? Where've i heard that suggested (and shot down)?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sometimes it's the timing and placement of the suggestion.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> No white bezels in the available color choices.
> 
> Otherwise, it's do-able.


Maybe in silver? I'm not sure I get the limitations on how the bezels are painted.

Btw... Ben Franklin is a class of submarine. Franklin was also the name of the Star Fleet ship thst was shipwrecked in Star Trek Beyond, which was being lived in and fixed by the girl/alien who's face popped into my head because it matched the dial...

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



macosie said:


> Maybe in silver? I'm not sure I get the limitations on how the bezels are painted.


Ok, I get it.

I guess I can't really say that I've seen many white-bezel watches as it is.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



macosie said:


> Maybe in silver? I'm not sure I get the limitations on how the bezels are painted.
> 
> Btw... Ben Franklin is a class of submarine. Franklin was also the name of the Star Fleet ship thst was shipwrecked in Star Trek Beyond, which was being lived in and fixed by the girl/alien who's face popped into my head because it matched the dial...
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


They're not painted. They're PVD coated. PVD is physical vapor disposition. My understanding is the application involves a combination of electroplating and elfin magic.

We don't have unlimited color choices with PVD. I'm not sure why. I just know we don't, and I know what the color choices are.

The color choices are:

"Light" or "dark" blue, but I'll be damned if I see any difference between them, so basically just "blue", like I've used on the Santa Cruz and blue Nackens.

Gray-to-black, including what would look like bare steel, somewhat like the Nacken Vintage Black, though lighter, more bare-metal colors are available.

Various shades of yellow gold, which I doubt I'd ever use for an insert.

Rose gold in a couple shades, ditto the above.

Some varied shades of brown ranging from amber/copper to purple (the Barracuda used one of these).

There's no white, no red, no green.

So, all the white-dialed Scorpene ideas are do-able, looking at the dial, but the bezels would not be white. They'd have to be black, blue, or metallic gray.

I never watched any of the new Star Trek movies after the first one, so that one went over my head.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

What about the numbers and indexes on the bezel? What are your options there?

Would you be able to do a variation of the bezel on the Explorer II that you posted?

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



macosie said:


> What about the numbers and indexes on the bezel? What are your options there?
> 
> Would you be able to do a variation of the bezel on the Explorer II that you posted?
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


Typically we stamp the markings into the bezel, and fill them with lume, so, while we could do a black-on-steel bezel, that would likely be un-lumed.

I think we'd more likely go for white lume, or I may look into using the same lume recipe we've used for the crown engraving, so that it would just look metallic when not glowing.

But, for now, black-on-steel isn't necessarily something I'd rule out, depending on how it looked with the overall design.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> They're not painted. They're PVD coated. PVD is physical vapor disposition. My understanding is the application involves a combination of electroplating and elfin magic.
> 
> We don't have unlimited color choices with PVD. I'm not sure why. I just know we don't, and I know what the color choices are.
> 
> ...


White bezel would be possible if you would reverse the stamping (raised markings), you could pvd it black and fill the recessed part with white lume.. So basically a lume coated bezel with pvd markings 
Would be an expensive lume job, but would certainly silence the lume junkies.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...combination of electroplating and elfin magic....


See!! I knew it!! 

Not all what would look beautiful must necessarily make sense other than being beautiful. Okay. Gone too far with this one I guess.

I appreciate the explanation and the above confirmation .

My 2 cents? The white dial would need some structure. The waffle on the Santa Cruz is great!

Aaaaand: that Santa Fe with the hollow/skeletonized snowflake...has a white dial too. Just sayin...just sayin...

Typed on an IBM typewriter.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> White bezel would be possible if you would reverse the stamping (raised markings), you could pvd it black and fill the recessed part with white lume.. So basically a lume coated bezel with pvd markings
> Would be an expensive lume job, but would certainly silence the lume junkies.
> 
> Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


Nope. Not going there. I can only imagine the number of bezel insert replacement requests I'd get as soon as people get their first scratch or chip in the lume.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

One whole page and not one photo.

Fixed.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Here's one more: Mint Azores.


----------



## nemorior (Jan 1, 2017)

Bernhardt has (had?) a nice watch with orange markers on white dial. 
However, no bezel, I personally find the dial looks a bit flat (would maybe need some structure?), and I'm not the biggest fan of the hands. 
But I like the orange markers on white dial


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone who may be interested, I just added 9 of the Spectre II bracelets (also fits Spectre I) to our store.

I had some extras whipped up when we were making the Spectre II. I figured there were some peeps out there with a Spectre I who'd want one.

But that's all there are. When those 9 are gone, there are no more.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Seeing as the idea got lost in the masses, I would like to see a white dial black bezel Amphion. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> Seeing as the idea got lost in the masses, I would like to see a white dial black bezel Amphion.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


+1


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> Seeing as the idea got lost in the masses, I would like to see a white dial black bezel Amphion.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Someone work that up, sounds like the watch that might make me switch from the orange swordfish. A milgaussub! Brilliant


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> Seeing as the idea got lost in the masses, I would like to see a white dial black bezel Amphion.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So...basically a Santa Cruz with black bezel and sword hands, or did you picture it with black markers, more like the Santa Fe?

Gonna need more specifics about the details.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> No white bezels in the available color choices.
> 
> Otherwise, it's do-able.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


Hah I was in the middle of reversing the color of the bezel on that polar blue Scorpene to see how it looked and then I realized I was basically making a Santa Cruz Scorpene mashup. Not that is a bad thing at all (you'll just have to imagine the proper lume and bezel markings)







Sorry @macosie for butchering your image


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> Anyone who may be interested, I just added 9 of the Spectre II bracelets (also fits Spectre I) to our store.
> 
> I had some extras whipped up when we were making the Spectre II. I figured there were some peeps out there with a Spectre I who'd want one.
> 
> But that's all there are. When those 9 are gone, there are no more.


You were right. Now there are 8 or less


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keeper of Time said:


> You were right. Now there are 8 or less


It won't ship for at least a day or two. I just sent them to our new fulfillment center today.


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

How about a "polar 1655"? Homage of the below, but with inverted color dial and a steel 12 hour bezel?


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> So...basically a Santa Cruz with black bezel and sword hands, or did you picture it with black markers, more like the Santa Fe?
> 
> Gonna need more specifics about the details.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


YES! Santa Cruz with black bezel, same orange markers but all sticks like a milgauss with black sword hands with matching orange lume! Oh that's so hot!


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> It won't ship for at least a day or two. I just sent them to our new fulfillment center today.


Flash fry a buffalo in 40 seconds? But I want it NOW!


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

This! Don't judge, I did this by hand on my cell, lol

Same rice paper, obviously match up the dial text, skinnier stick markers I think. Hmmm maybe a lightening seconds hand?


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

svendsenp said:


> How about a "polar 1655"? Homage of the below, but with inverted color dial and a steel 12 hour bezel?
> 
> View attachment 12967369


Kinda like this:









I think Steve McQueen was a fellow southpaw, so a destro would be neato


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

svendsenp said:


> Kinda like this:
> 
> View attachment 12967617
> 
> ...


That's hot! Black+white, plus a touch of orange. +1


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> So...basically a Santa Cruz with black bezel and sword hands, or did you picture it with black markers, more like the Santa Fe?
> 
> Gonna need more specifics about the details.
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


Chris, if we are going for a full lume dial then I would say black markers and hands, but no rice paper dial just matt.

If no to the full lume then something more like the polar Explorer II dial but with sword hands. So probably have the markers and hands as silver with more BGW9 white lume.

And obviously the full milsub bezel from the Amphion with more BGW9 lume.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jzoo (Jul 13, 2015)

Doc, thank you for matching a Dutch sub name with an orange dial.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Couldn't stop playing, little more variation


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jzoo said:


> Doc, thank you for matching a Dutch sub name with an orange dial.


Pffffft!

What did you expect? Did you expect me to NOT go looking for countries with orange in their flags, or countries where the royal family's color is orange, and then not go looking for cool-sounding submarine names from that country?

Because I did all that stuff.

Because I care.

And because I'm huge with the Dutch.

Almost as huge as I am with the Scandinavians.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Watch out, Rusty, you're about to be replaced by kindergarteners. Oh, God, my eyes!


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Ok last one, I promise, I realized I lost the whole 369 dial in all my excited doodling


----------



## brian2502 (May 29, 2014)

Uncanny,.. I'm not kidding, 2 weeks ago I saw the picture of the mkII American and wished it came in a thinner, smaller case. Even saved a screenshot of the picture on my phone coz I found it very good looking! And now Doc says he's probably looking to make something similar.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Deleted... Realized I submitted two watches that were already submitted. Sorry, no insult meant to the previous posters.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Alright, guys, I appreciate everyone's suggestions, and all those renders people have ginned up. Thank you all. We can stop here, at least for now.

I didn't see what I need to justify further development of the idea right now. Maybe we'll come back to it in the future.

What did I need? 

It's hard to explain, but, at a macro level, I'm trying to make all my decisions either a "HELL YES", or just a "no". For something here to be a "HELL YES", I'd need:

1. Something that immediately grabs my attention.

Say what you like - I think I've got good instincts for what will sell and what likely won't. Or at the very least, I can spot ideas that are obvious winners.

2. Something that gets a strong response from the crowd.

If I'm on the fence, the crowd can push me over, sometimes, maybe. If I'm not even on the fence, but pretty much on one side of it, the crowd will need to be larger to lift me up and throw me over to the other side.

My gut instinct is that the demand for white dials is significantly less than the demand for darker colors, most of the ideas here would be better rendered as dark dials, not white dials, and my business still isn't quite large enough for me to justify the work which goes into developing an idea and supporting it from design to delivery if the idea is narrow in its appeal.

So, for now, I'm going to ignore the occasional comment from the random internet guy, who complains when I post new designs, because he doesn't see what he personally likes.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

As always, gents, doc neglected to add: if you have a ggggrrteeeaaatttt idea, and 299 friends, he’ll make whatevah ya like. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

hwa said:


> ... if you have a ggggrrteeeaaatttt idea ...


... What's a "Grrr teat idea"? And why would doc put that on a watch?


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Hot pink dials are The Future, obvs. And leopardskin. Lack of sheer _fabulousness_ in the current line-up.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Hot pink dials are The Future, obvs. And leopardskin. Lack of sheer _fabulousness_ in the current line-up.


Ah, you seem to be quoting the visionaries over at Invicta.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> ... What's a "Grrr teat idea"? And why would doc put that on a watch?


You spelled it wrong

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

[Last 3 days of feverish posting]

Tl;dr: just make more Santa Fes!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Hot pink dials are The Future, obvs. And leopardskin. Lack of sheer _fabulousness_ in the current line-up.


Looks like I'll be working on a hot pink leopard skin sub render - codename: Subulous - this weekend. Thanks a lot, guys. Like I needed the extra work...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> ... What's a "Grrr teat idea"? And why would doc put that on a watch?


Homage to the Rolex nipple dials, of course!


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

'Subulous' I love it darling! I'll take two; one for me and one for my pug, Mister Puglingford.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> 'Subulous' I love it darling! I'll take two; one for me and one for my pug, Mister Puglingford.


Please no.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

I realize the white dial idea discussion is closed. How about this as an alternative? A white chapter ring and black dial ? 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jlow28 said:


> I realize the white dial idea discussion is closed. How about this as an alternative? A white chapter ring and black dial ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A little preview of something coming soon from HKEd.

I have it on good authority there's a black dial version.










Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Interesting hked watch...I like it so far... patiently waiting for his f71 watch prototypes...

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

I've recommended VANTABLACK in the past but the artistic rights were sold to Anish Kapoor. So, you can use Black 2.0 instead and you get the second blackest dial. Make sure you read the disclaimer; it's a fun read.
https://culturehustle.com/collectio...orld-s-mattest-flattest-blackest-art-material


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

A dial coated with vantablack (or, well, 'black 2.0' and anything that behaves similarly) at an "f71" pricepoint would be an instant buy. Not exaggerating. (Well... given a 'good' watch design - so smth like nth etc. yes, smth. like richard mille no.)

The complete light absorption of the dial would mean that everything on it - indices, logos, text - would appear as if floating in an absolute void.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

+1 on Vantablack / Black 2.0 enthusiasm!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Interesting. 

I remember someone on FB posting about that Black 2.0 stuff a ways back. I didn't pay much attention at the time.

I just looked at it. It's acrylic, which is apparently ideal for applying to metals, which the dials are, most often. 

But since the dial surface is under the crystal, and the crystal has at least one, if not two layers of AR, I wonder if it's even worth it. The crystal and the AR will change the appearance, and reflect light themselves. You could have "none blacker" completely ruined by "hi there, I'm sapphire!"

Also, since I'm not there when the dials are being made, for all I know, they could take that bottle, leave it on the shelf, make the dials using their usual stuff, and ship to me, and I'd really have no way of knowing, or disputing what they did, if they say, "oh, no, we used the stuff you sent us".

The only way I could "prove" anything would be to get that stuff, coat a dial blank with it, and stick it into a case with the same crystal and AR, and do a side-by-side. Even if I did, and it looked different, they could tell me the change in appearance is due to a top/clear coat they applied for protection against UV rays, or whatever.

I tend to avoid these sorts of one-off experiments in production. If we ever bring parts production back onshore, or I have a bit of R&D budget, then, maybe, I'll experiment some. Until then, it's a rabbit hole I don't want to go down into.


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

docvail said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I remember someone on FB posting about that Black 2.0 stuff a ways back. I didn't pay much attention at the time.
> 
> ...


But it's black cherry scented! How can you pass knowing that?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

you are one distrustful cuss.

How about this: plexiglass. Stuff your sapphire.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

docvail said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I remember someone on FB posting about that Black 2.0 stuff a ways back. I didn't pay much attention at the time.
> 
> ...


Why must you fight us with logic and reason. It's BLACK.


----------



## CDawson (Mar 8, 2012)

Double post.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

CDawson said:


> I've recommended VANTABLACK in the past but the artistic rights were sold to Anish Kapoor. So, you can use Black 2.0 instead and you get the second blackest dial. Make sure you read the disclaimer; it's a fun read.
> https://culturehustle.com/collectio...orld-s-mattest-flattest-blackest-art-material


Lolwut?



> Simply the best flat, matt, black paint on the planet.
> Unique acrylic co-polymer binder enables more pigment load than any other acrylic paint
> Developed for artists by artists
> State of the art mattifyers reduce light reflection
> ...


Edit: The Amazon results are not glowing: https://smile.amazon.com/BLACK-2-0-mattest-flattest-material/dp/B0758GKKGZ/


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> A little preview of something coming soon from HKEd.
> 
> I have it on good authority there's a black dial version.
> 
> ...


Some might see this post as evidence that it's your manufacturer that's making hked's vintage project..... Those prone to wild speculation and conspiracy theories. Ok maybe just me.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

The whole "Anish Kapoor" thing is a great marketing tool by those black paint guys. I actually want to know the story now, lol. 
From Amazon:


*Note: By adding this product to your cart you confirm that you are not Anish Kapoor, you are in no way affiliated to Anish Kapoor, you are not purchasing this item on behalf of Anish Kapoor or an associate of Anish Kapoor
Question:
Who is Anish Kapoor?


Answer:​Some say he is a bat who takes human form and flies through the night to drink the blood of babies. Other say he is a super villain who is building a giant disk with which he will blot out the sun. Others use a search engine to learn more about him. 
[COLOR=#767676 !important]By J paslawski on February 16, 2018

[/COLOR]


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skunkworks said:


> Some might see this post as evidence that it's your manufacturer that's making hked's vintage project..... Those prone to wild speculation and conspiracy theories. Ok maybe just me.


Or maybe just evidence I'm also on Facebook?










Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm friendly with HKEd. He showed me the designs at least two months ago, but asked me to keep his confidence until he was ready to reveal them.

It appears Derek from EMG watches may be involved somehow, and I guess they're now teasing the new design with posts on FB. If Derek's showing them there, then there's no harm in my reposting those images here, I figure.

Other than proving I'm also on FB, I think it only proves I can be trusted to keep mum about something when asked.


Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Go figure, with a skunk as an avatar, something's sure to smell funny.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

The power of the internet









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=9447658

Anyone who read that and thought I was making it up...










Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Mil6161 said:


> The power of the internet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh they are slick! But where have I seen those bracelets before... I know, I know, I can't help it tho


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Mil6161 said:


> The power of the internet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Matt dial?

Aw man, and there I was hoping for a Jeff dial.


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

skunkworks said:


> Oh they are slick! But where have I seen those bracelets before... I know, I know, I can't help it tho


Looks like he might be using the whole case and bracelet - which, if that gets the project watch funded, I'm 100% behind it.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Everett464 said:


> Looks like he might be using the whole case and bracelet - which, if that gets the project watch funded, I'm 100% behind it.


They both look fantastic! But that's not what I meant, I've seen similar on another awesome watch around these parts.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Not sure what you're intimating. That Doc and HKEd are in cahoots because Ed's using a beads of rice bracelet? They're not in cahoots. HKEd is a WUS legend, if better known over in the Chinese forum for his version of the '63 CAF chrono and the many successful project watches that came out of that forum.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

skunkworks said:


> They both look fantastic! But that's not what I meant, I've seen similar on another awesome watch around these parts.


So you're saying HKED is using the Doxa factory?

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Cahoots. I think I'm going to change my username to cahoots. Either that, or my locations. That way I can always be in Cahoots...


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

I think Doc's greatest contribution to horology was the invention of the Beads of Rice bracelet, personally.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Everett464 said:


> I think Doc's greatest contribution to horology was the invention of the Beads of Rice bracelet, personally.


Just having a bit fun was all


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

HAHAHA what a great post as long as your dog was fine that is. I even read it too my Wife and Daughter in my best Samuel Jackson voice...mutha.....



docvail said:


> The NEW Official all things Lew & Huey Thread - Page 111
> 
> Anyone who read that and thought I was making it up...
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm just guessing HK Ed will be okay with this:

Case - Pretty sure he's making his watch using the same case as the current F71 vintage dive watch project, out of necessity, in order to meet the case factory's MOQ's.

Bracelet - It's a BOR. I didn't invent the BOR, and I'm at least 40% sure Doxa didn't either, but I could easily be wrong, I mean...40% ain't very sure. Either way, that's between Ed, the rice, and whoever put 'em all together in beads.

Cahoots - He showed me an early draft of the design, and asked for my thoughts. I told him what I thought, and he made some changes. I'm not sure what the legal definition of in cahoots is, but...lawyer. I ain't saying anything more until I talk to my lawyer.

Ed's good people. He likes to play tricks on the gwai lo visiting Hong Kong, but aside from that...good people.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Think of it this way: a lawyer and a pilot agree that “cahoots” is a thing, and a watchmaker is nervous. 

Let someone else provide the punchline. 

This has the makings of the fun we haven’t seen in these parts for years. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

hwa said:


> Think of it this way: a lawyer and a pilot agree that "cahoots" is a thing, and a watchmaker is nervous.
> 
> Let someone else provide the punchline.
> 
> ...


I keep telling people I'm only here for the funny stuff, and nobody believes me. On a related note, I swapped out of my Dublin trip for a Paris before I knew you were going. You need to keep me posted on that stuff.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> I keep telling people I'm only here for the funny stuff, and nobody believes me. On a related note, I swapped out of my Dublin trip for a Paris before I knew you were going. You need to keep me posted on that stuff.


You wouldn't want to hook up. Wife and I are going on a walkabout. No airoplanes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I remember someone on FB posting about that Black 2.0 stuff a ways back. I didn't pay much attention at the time.
> 
> ...


I'm getting a deja vecu feeling about this conversation but here we go.

I don't know how expensive the are (probably too much) or how annoying it is to deal with the British regulations (probably very) but you can get samples of vanta black (potentially hazardous nanotubes) or s-vis (you'd want this one) https://www.surreynanosystems.com/vantablack/samples-development Pretty sure you'd have to have the dial coatings done there though ($$) unless you wanted to license it (I'm sure you don't).

They do have a slightly more visible version that doesn't have the licensing text though https://www.surreynanosystems.com/super-black-coatings/vbx-coatings which while not quite as black is still pretty neat and might be worth a look.

There is also this stuff https://hyperallergic.com/395360/meet-singularity-black-the-blackest-paint-on-the-market/ but it sounds pretty fragile/finicky. Since it is readily available stateside it might be good for experimentation though. Only $50 http://www.nano-lab.com/singularity-20ml.html


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm done thinking about none blacker.


Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm just guessing HK Ed will be okay with this:
> 
> Case - Pretty sure he's making his watch using the same case as the current F71 vintage dive watch project, out of necessity, in order to meet the case factory's MOQ's.
> 
> ...


I was really just messing around, trying to start some rumors, poking fun at the secrecy of who's making the watches, etc. Of course I realize bor is nothing new and not unique to Doc. I still think I might be right, lol.

Hked's watches look great, both the project and the other. Can't wait to see the prototypes, but I'm getting in on the project no matter what.

Back to NTH:

I'm digging that new orange sub Doc! Will there be prototypes before preorder?

Was all the blue options an intended theme or just coincidental?

I agree the white dial didn't yeild anything worth making, The idea of a white milsub or 369 still sounds great in my mind, but even after doodling up some ideas myself, they were meh.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skunkworks said:


> I was really just messing around, trying to start some rumors, poking fun at the secrecy of who's making the watches, etc. Of course I realize bor is nothing new and not unique to Doc. I still think I might be right, lol.
> 
> Hked's watches look great, both the project and the other. Can't wait to see the prototypes, but I'm getting in on the project no matter what.


Yeah, I was messing around, too.



skunkworks said:


> Back to NTH:
> 
> I'm digging that new orange sub Doc! Will there be prototypes before preorder?
> 
> ...


No prototypes. We've already produced the NTH Subs. We're going straight to production.

I may not even do a typical "pre-order". I'll likely decide how many of each version to make, on my own, order them produced, then put them up for sale on my website.

They'll be a "pre-order" in the sense that I'll be putting them up for sale before I have them in stock, but all the common parts are already made. We're just whipping up dials/bezels/hands and assembling them, so the wait will be less.

We won't be letting pre-orders run for a while before starting production, and production in this case is mostly just assembly.

I just figure I'll give people a chance to reserve one before they sell out. We're not making that many in this run. It'll be just 10-30 pieces of each version.

All the blue was coincidental. Most ideas were developed in black originally. Blue versions just seem obvious.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> I didn't invent the BOR, and I'm at least 40% sure Doxa didn't either, but I could easily be wrong, I mean...40% ain't very sure.


Lol! There was an article in the WSJ recently about the 40% chance and how useful it is:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-do-pundits-never-get-it-wrong-call-a-40-chance-1519662425


> How Do Pundits Never Get It Wrong? Call a 40% Chance
> Talking heads have learned that forecast covers all outcomes; 'I just said it was a strong possibility.'


It's behind a paywall, but the quote above covers the gist of it pretty well. The whole article is here, if anyone cares: Green All Over: The Rule of 40%


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'm done thinking about none blacker.


Ah but I could smuggle them out of Heathrow for you. I'd cover my body in them and then wrap myself in cling-film, a la 'The Wolf of Wall Street.' If I got caught I could go down in horological history as a martyr.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Although TBH I'm just looking for an excuse to roll around in watch parts and wrap myself in cling film.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Although TBH I'm just looking for an excuse to roll around in watch parts and wrap myself in cling film.


Sounds like a nice pay-per-view option...|>


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Horoticus said:


> Sounds like a nice pay-per-view option...|>


Max. chuckle quotient going on here.........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hey all, just a quick PSA - I primarily use the Janis Trading email newsletter to inform customers about new products and update people about pending pre-orders. If you don't have a pending pre-order, you MIGHT get that newsletter from me 4-6 times per year. I don't send out spam.

If you unsubscribe, you won't get pre-order updates. I can't effectively manage hundreds of individual requests for updates on-demand by email or direct message, and I feel bad embarrassing people who ask me publicly why they didn't get the latest email. Your choices are stay subscribed (or resubscribe) to the newsletter, or wait for your shipping notice. Just sayin'...

Anyhoo - the Black and White DevilRays, order numbers lower than 4961, should start shipping by mid-week.

All others, full info about the timeline for deliveries in our previous update - https://mailchi.mp/janistrading/devilray-production-update-early-delivery-869769?e=[UNIQID]


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Hey all, just a quick PSA - I primarily use the Janis Trading email newsletter to inform customers about new products and update people about pending pre-orders. If you don't have a pending pre-order, you MIGHT get that newsletter from me 4-6 times per year. I don't send out spam.
> 
> If you unsubscribe, you won't get pre-order updates. I can't effectively manage hundreds of individual requests for updates on-demand by email or direct message, and I feel bad embarrassing people who ask me publicly why they didn't get the latest email. Your choices are stay subscribed (or resubscribe) to the newsletter, or wait for your shipping notice. Just sayin'...
> 
> ...


I want to like this post but it doesn't say my turquoise is shipping today. That aside still good news (which I did see in my email previously) and impatiently waiting for mine next month.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > Hey all, just a quick PSA - I primarily use the Janis Trading email newsletter to inform customers about new products and update people about pending pre-orders. If you don't have a pending pre-order, you MIGHT get that newsletter from me 4-6 times per year. I don't send out spam.
> ...


this. All this...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Been a wee bit neglected recently what with new arrivals and some departures, so I'll be enjoying the time with Amphion Blue for Sunday..........

















Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

I'm extremely fond of the blue/black gradient dial Näcken. I have to imagine that that will be popular.

I don't know what will be going on in my life by the time orders open up, but I'm very tempted. I've been considering getting another diver, and the proportions on the NTH subs are perfect.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

http://www.janistrading.com/blog/is-this-an-homage-if-so-to-or-of-what/

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## jbg7474 (Sep 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> http://www.janistrading.com/blog/is-this-an-homage-if-so-to-or-of-what/
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


That's a great article, thanks for sharing!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> http://www.janistrading.com/blog/is-this-an-homage-if-so-to-or-of-what/
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


After reading this I wish I had $ to buy all versions of Subs


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> http://www.janistrading.com/blog/is-this-an-homage-if-so-to-or-of-what/
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


Honored to have one of my Santa Cruz pics shown in the article! I feel like I've made it to the top!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Honored to have one of my Santa Cruz pics shown in the article! I feel like I've made it to the top!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


*Many pics shamelessly pilfered from the innerwebz, without due credit or recognition.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Honestly, I'm less bothered by "it's just a ripoff..." than I am by "...of the Black Bay", which I don't even like very much.

For crissakes, at least know the references.

So...I'm sure there are questions about the new Subs, the pre-order, etc.

Baselworld starts in 3 days, so I'm not expecting lickety-split speed of correspondence with my factory this week. My hope is we can finalize all the details before the end of the week, and start production before the end of next.

I want to make sure we're 100% dead-certain about all the little details before I start pre-order. I have this not-entirely-unreasonable fear that they'll overlook something critical, I'll miss the fact that they overlooked it, and I'll only realize it when it's too late to do anything about it. I hate having to go back to pre-order customers and explain those sorts of situations. Sometimes, the longer I can hold off on starting pre-orders, the better.

In the meantime, y'all can think about which versions you like enough to plunk your money down, whenever that is.


----------



## Relo60 (Jun 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> Is this an homage? If so, to or of what? - Janis Trading Company
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


Great read and informative.

Likewise honored to have my Näcken Vintage Blue grace your blog.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> *Many pics shamelessly pilfered from the innerwebz, without due credit or recognition.





Relo60 said:


> Great read and informative.
> 
> Honored to have my Näcken Vintage Blue in your blog.
> 
> View attachment 12988569


What part of "shamelessly pilfered" and "without due credit" is confusing to y'all?


----------



## Relo60 (Jun 14, 2015)

Iliveonwhacker and I must have beens posting at the same time or close to it. Already have the Scorpene in mind.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Is this an homage? If so, to or of what? - Janis Trading Company
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


A finer selection of inspired, designed, named and executed dive watches I cannot imagine..........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> What part of "shamelessly pilfered" and "without due credit" is confusing to y'all?


I wasn't complaining!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> I wasn't complaining!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It wouldn't do any good.

To whom would you complain, and what could they do about it? Take away my birthday?

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> I wasn't complaining!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Didn't think you were!

Some of my posts are tongue-in-cheek, but I rarely care enough to use emojis, and I detest the use of "lol" as an indicator of intended humor within one's own post.

If you say something funny, I may "lol", but I will NEVER add "lol" when I think I'm being funny. It's an affront to comedy to laugh at one's own jokes.

All of which is a long way of saying, I'm frequently not serious, and it's up to you all to figure out when that is, without the aid of emoji's or gratuitous "lol"s.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...my new warehouse is working out pretty well so far. Compared to the old one, they're setting land-speed records for the time it takes to process inbound inventory and get it ready for shipping.

I sent them the first batch of black and white DevilRays yesterday. They received it today. Guess what? They're already processing orders for shipping. This is usually the part where karma comes along to kick me square in the jubblies.

Anyhoo, if you ordered a black or white DevilRay, without also ordering an orange or turquoise, and your order number is 4965 or lower, your order will hopefully ship today, you'll have a tracking notice by tomorrow, and the seemingly interminable wait for delivery will follow. 

"Basking in the glory of triumph" is not among my strong suits. I'm usually too focused on the next big objective or putting out whatever fires have been sparked. This time is no different. I'm up to my eyeballs in a-holes and alligators, as always.

Because I'll forget otherwise, I'll say it now - I'm very proud of how the DevilRay turned out. I think it's our best work to date, and could end up being our best work ever. I don't know how we'd top it. I sincerely hope everyone who gets one loves it, and enjoys it while they own it.

If you want to tell me that, awesome. It beats, "you suck, and so do your watches". But I'm also not good at receiving compliments, so if I fail to acknowledge yours, please don't hold it against me. As much as I like to hear people tell me they enjoy my work, I'd be ecstatic if you told others how much you enjoy it.

If you're the type to post wrist-shots, particularly on Instagram, please be sure to tag @janistrading, as there's a good chance I'll repost your pic if I see it and it's good. There's almost as good a chance I'll end up using it in a future blog post, after I've lost all ability to figure out whose pic it was, and there again, please don't hold it against me.

In the meantime, I really do have a $hlt-ton of work to do, and need to limit my time here and on social media to brief spurts of promotion and needed communication, plus the occasional tom foolery, just to let off steam. I'll try to stay on top of what's going on, but I hope you'll not let my less frequent posting be a reason to lose interest.


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

docvail said:


> http://www.janistrading.com/blog/is-this-an-homage-if-so-to-or-of-what/
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


Thanks for posting . Well written article. After a few minutes all I remember is orange and the Dutch girl picture.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jlow28 said:


> Thanks for posting . Well written article. After a few minutes all I remember is orange and the Dutch girl picture.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Because THAT'S how you end a blog post, b1tches!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Number #4870 on its way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Is this an homage? If so, to or of what? - Janis Trading Company
> 
> Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


That Bluracuda is on like Donkey Kong. I'd slap HWA's momma to get on the list for one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> That Bluracuda is on like Donkey Kong. I'd slap HWA's momma to get on the list for one.


Never met HWAs mom, but I imagine she's a candidate for sainthood. Why you'd think of slapping her is as much a mystery as why anyone persists in imagining me keeping lists of people and the watches they want.

I have one list. People I intend to kill with my mind-death powers, whenever I perfect them.

That ain't a list you wanna join.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> I have one list. People I intend to kill with my mind-death powers, whenever I perfect them.
> 
> That ain't a list you wanna join.


Excuse me, sir, do you have a moment to talk about Scientology? I think we can help with your problem!


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Never met HWAs mom, but I imagine she's a candidate for sainthood. Why you'd think of slapping her is as much a mystery as why anyone persists in imagining me keeping lists of people and the watches they want.
> 
> I have one list. People I intend to kill with my mind-death powers, whenever I perfect them.
> 
> ...


In the first version of my post I almost offered to slap your momma, but it occurred to me that I'd probably end up on the wrong list.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Duplicate post deleted.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> In the first version of my post I almost offered to slap your momma, but it occurred to me that I'd probably end up on the wrong list.


My momma is 70 years old, but still a force of nature. If you're thinking of stepping up to her, you're gonna need mind-death powers of your own. She's 5 feet 4 inches of holy terror.

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

On a related note, wondering which is more likely:

A) Doc gets mind-death powers
B) Riccardo reissue


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Somebody say something stupid? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Well Doc that list of people to kill is probably a long one so you need one of these to write it all down.










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Rhorya said:


> Well Doc that list of people to kill is probably a long one so you need one of these to write it all down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Got a funny feeling that book's not big enough..........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> Never met HWAs mom, but I imagine she's a candidate for sainthood. Why you'd think of slapping her is as much a mystery as why anyone persists in imagining me keeping lists of people and the watches they want.
> 
> I have one list. People I intend to kill with my mind-death powers, whenever I perfect them.
> 
> ...


You suck and so do your watches! Put me on the list for a Tiburon b1tch!

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Got a funny feeling that book's not big enough..........
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


How thick is it, including crystal and case back? What about the lug length?

Add a bottle of all new Tapatalk to a tank of gas for more power, better mileage, and longer life.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Well Doc that list of people to kill is probably a long one so you need one of these to write it all down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No lie. I looked at this on Amazon, and would have bought it, but the pages are unlined.

And Chris don't do "unlined".



Rhorya said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I believe those are the first pics of a DevilRay in the wild.

You like?


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Ragl said:


> Got a funny feeling that book's not big enough..........
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


It's just one volume in the set.


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

Are there any plans to do any more California dial designs? I think the Nazario looks pretty amazing, but based on the description sounds like it's gonna be rarer than hens teeth and is probably already sold out? Would be nice if there was a non-limited version because itd be cool to see cali dials getting love on something besides a massive Panerai homage.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skuzapo said:


> Are there any plans to do any more California dial designs? I think the Nazario looks pretty amazing, but based on the description sounds like it's gonna be rarer than hens teeth and is probably already sold out? Would be nice if there was a non-limited version because itd be cool to see cali dials getting love on something besides a massive Panerai homage.


No current plans for any more Cali dials, but never say never.

FWIW, there are 25 Nazarios being produced, and soon to be delivered. It's not that small a number compared to many versions of many models we've produced, and we still see some of those others come up for sale sometimes.

I'd watch the sales forums, eBay, and Facebook groups in the weeks/months after we make delivery, when guys decide they're not keepers, or whatever the reason is when they decide to flip them.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> No current plans for any more Cali dials, but never say never.


How about Florida dials? With a Jeff finish, ofc.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Blackracuda!

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> No lie. I looked at this on Amazon, and would have bought it, but the pages are unlined.
> 
> And Chris don't do "unlined".
> 
> ...


I'm totally liking the whole watch now it's actually on the wrist. As you mentioned a while ago the production piece has a better display of the colored depth ring which is a really subtle design element that really stands strong and makes the dial an eye catcher. Well done!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> How about Florida dials? With a Jeff finish, ofc.


No idea what either of those things are, but I went ahead and liked your post anyway.



skunkworks said:


> Blackracuda!


Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?

The thing about the Barracuda - it's the snowflake hands, and Rolex-Sub markers, which is basically the Black Bay, but it doesn't have the Black Bay colors, so it's on the friendly side of "just a Black Bay knockoff".

We did the Black Bay Black color scheme on the Amphion Dark Gilt, but with sword hands, so, again, on the friendly side.

We do a Barracuda in black, with those hands, those indices, and that color scheme - Bro, that's just a Black Bay Black knockoff.

My job isn't to give you a more affordable version of something you want from some other company but can't afford or justify, my job is to get you to want something a little different, which you can afford or justify.

There's an alternate reality where I make tons of money producing 1:1 high-quality knockoffs of well-known luxury brands, and I don't bother to read comments from online haters who despise me and hope I get cancer, but that's an ALTERNATE reality, not this reality.

And besides, the suggestion window is closed. I opened it up a little, everyone lost their minds for a few days, and I remembered why I keep that $hlt locked up tight all the time. Thank God I didn't tell everyone to email me with those renders...

Now if you'll all excuse me, I'm late for my monthly cancer-screening. I'm not the only one practicing mind-death powers, and for all I know, some of those other guys are further along in their training.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Rhorya said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Sweet Baby Jeebus...


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Serious note... Chris, you've probably discussed this somewhere previously, but humor me. Something occurred to me tonight: You've made plenty of watches with recessed crowns, but not a single model (that I'm aware of) with crown guards. Are you opposed to them? Have they simply not fit with any of your designs? What's the scoop?


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Did anyone see Tudor’s NTH homage that was just released?

I think they are calling it the Blackbay Fifty-Eight. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Did anyone see Tudor's NTH homage that was just released?
> 
> I think they are calling it the Blackbay Fifty-Eight.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well played 

They brazenly stole Doc's snowflake hands design. First the BOR bracelet, now this. Where does it end?


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

.


----------



## NoTimeToLose (Sep 23, 2016)

Those Devil Ray pics. Wow.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> Serious note... Chris, you've probably discussed this somewhere previously, but humor me. Something occurred to me tonight: You've made plenty of watches with recessed crowns, but not a single model (that I'm aware of) with crown guards. Are you opposed to them? Have they simply not fit with any of your designs? What's the scoop?


(Not so serious answer)

We don't need no stinkin' crown guards!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Serious note... Chris, you've probably discussed this somewhere previously, but humor me. Something occurred to me tonight: You've made plenty of watches with recessed crowns, but not a single model (that I'm aware of) with crown guards. Are you opposed to them? Have they simply not fit with any of your designs? What's the scoop?


Meh. Haven't felt like they were needed.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

docvail said:


> Meh. Haven't felt like they were needed.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


And I'm grateful for that.
Crown guards have a way to ruin the symmetry of a case and there are very few that really look good...

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> ...
> Because I'll forget otherwise, I'll say it now - I'm very proud of how the DevilRay turned out. I think it's our best work to date, and could end up being our best work ever. I don't know how we'd top it. I sincerely hope everyone who gets one loves it, and enjoys it while they own it.
> 
> If you want to tell me that, awesome. It beats, "you suck, and so do your watches". But I'm also not good at receiving compliments, so if I fail to acknowledge yours, please don't hold it against me. As much as I like to hear people tell me they enjoy my work, I'd be ecstatic if you told others how much you enjoy it.
> ....


Would you accept a "you suck, but your watches look top notch"? That seems passive aggressive enough to maybe work. I'd say they are top notch but the bluquoise are still "late" so I wouldn't know.

please don't put me in your people to mind bullet book


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan92084 said:


> Would you accept a "you suck, but your watches look top notch"? That seems passive aggressive enough to maybe work. I'd say they are top notch but the bluquoise are still "late" so I wouldn't know.
> 
> please don't put me in your people to mind bullet book


Accept it or not, the internet is full of chairborne Rangers and keyboard critics, so it's something people are gonna say.










Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

Maybe spin it into a positive and get Pat Sajak as a brand ambassador?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Guess you shouldn't have stolen Scott's bike in grade school.


----------



## synaptyx (Nov 25, 2013)

Barracuda / Blurracuda - No.  It's 'Barrabluda.'  I know because it was on the dial temporarily when I was doing the drawings for Chris.  
I guess you can call it what you like as long as it's complimentary. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Accept it or not, the internet is full of chairborne Rangers and keyboard critics, so it's something people are gonna say.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haters gonna hate, Doc. As much as we're all concerned with the aesthetic judgements of Scott Assbjorjenstjeinenhjeim, I'd let it go and focus on all the positive feedback.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Guess you shouldn't have stolen Scott's bike in grade school.


Yeah. That discussion is still going, and hasn't gotten any less bizarre. I thought I might have an idea why he's trolling, but his explanation is wildly different and completely lacking in anything remotely resembling logic.

This is a strange business.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

My devilray has been stuck in "in transit to next facility" limbo for three days now, thanks USPS. Expected delivery was supposed to be today ;_;


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VF1Valkyrie said:


> My devilray has been stuck in "in transit to next facility" limbo for three days now, thanks USPS. Expected delivery was supposed to be today ;_;


Sorry, my friend. I don't know if it's weather related, but we got hit with a huge snow storm this week.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

docvail said:


> Sorry, my friend. I don't know if it's weather related, but we got hit with a huge snow storm this week.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


No worries, tracking finally shows it at my post office so it should show up tomorrow.


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

At first I was a little confused thinking he was a FB friend pulling a joke , then I had to comment on his pilot watch. Then somehow I got sucked in.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Now's as good a time as any to simply quit FB. I deleted my account in 2014, and don't miss it one bit. If SpaceX can do it, you can too, Doc.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jlow28 said:


> At first I was a little confused thinking he was a FB friend pulling a joke , then I had to comment on his pilot watch. Then somehow I got sucked in.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I know your real name now...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Now's as good a time as any to simply quit FB. I deleted my account in 2014, and don't miss it one bit. If SpaceX can do it, you can too, Doc.


I prefer FB to the Forum in some ways. The moderators of the groups I participate in are more likely to boot a troll than let them troll, and people are more likely to use their real names, as opposed to an anonymous forum handle.

I was off FB for about 5 years, and didn't miss it at all. I only re-engaged for business reasons.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Block out the noise









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jove (Sep 19, 2013)

Two new arrivals. The Spectre II arrived yesterday, and the DevilRay was waiting for me when I got home from work this evening.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jove said:


> Two new arrivals. The Spectre II arrived yesterday, and the DevilRay was waiting for me when I got home from work this evening.
> View attachment 13001443
> 
> View attachment 13001445
> ...


Only one thing to do...

Schwarzkopf!










Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ No ...., he really did that? 

I've heard TGV say it any number of times, but...damn.

So Schwarzkopf never heard of GMT or what?


----------



## Jove (Sep 19, 2013)

Toonces said:


> ^ No ...., he really did that?
> 
> I've heard TGV say it any number of times, but...damn.
> 
> So Schwarzkopf never heard of GMT or what?


_"I always wore two watches during the [Gulf] war. The one on my left arm was set on Saudi Arabian time and the Seiko on my right arm was set on Eastern Standard Time. That way I could quickly glance at my watches and instantly know the time in both Saudi Arabia and Washington, D.C. Sincerely, H. Norman Schwarzkopf General, U.S. Army, Retired." _

Words from recently departed General Norman Schwarzkopf in a letter to the Antiquorum auction house in the late 1990s when he donated one his watches for a charity auction.

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/remembering-general-norman-schwarzkopf-his-watches/


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Well, a G-shock can do the same thing on one wrist, but what the heck. If I thought I could pull it off, I'd wear my Nacken on my left wrist, and my Devil Ray on the right.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

For good or ill, there was only one Stormin' Norman.



Toonces said:


> Well, a G-shock can do the same thing on one wrist, but what the heck. If I thought I could pull it off, I'd wear my Nacken on my left wrist, and my Devil Ray on the right.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hey, people got ankles for a reason. Just strap a spare watch around one of yer legs.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Sportin' the Commander today:


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Azores for me today. C300 later.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Agent Sands said:


> Sportin' the Commander today:
> 
> View attachment 13002651


Dang, why doesn't mine look that good, lol???

Edit: sporting mine today, too. It *DOES NOT* say hi.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Those of you who have gotten or are still waiting on a DevilRay, this came up in the Divers Watches sub-forum.

If you want the polished side of the center-links on the inside of the bracelet, and the brushed side facing out, just detach the bracelet from the end-link and the link at the clasp, flip it around, then re-attach it to the same links. 

You'll still have the one polished section of the end-link and link at the clasp, but if you really hate them, a little scotch-brite and some elbow grease goes a long way.

Potentially, you could turn the links at the clasp around, but those links aren't symmetrically-shaped, they're wedge-shaped, to better taper into the clasp, so turning them around might impact the way they pivot within the clasp.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Jove said:


> Two new arrivals. The Spectre II arrived yesterday, and the DevilRay was waiting for me when I got home from work this evening.
> View attachment 13001443
> 
> View attachment 13001445
> ...


Thanks for the side-by-side. I was actually just looking at my Spectre II today and wondering how the DR would compare. The Spectre is right at the top of my wearable size range. I actually had to switch from the bracelet to a strap because the flared end-links took it over the top for me. But based on your pics, DR should be right in the sweet spot size-wise.

Doc, hurry up with those turquoise DRs! I'm jones'ing!


----------



## Jove (Sep 19, 2013)

Trying out some different looks on the new Spectre II.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Jove said:


> Trying out some different looks on the new Spectre II.
> View attachment 13006067
> 
> 
> ...


Ooh, I'm digging that NATO. And is that the royal blue rubber strap that Doc sells?


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Don't think I actually posted this one yet. I've been rocking my Spectre II on leather:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Ooh, I'm digging that NATO. And is that the royal blue rubber strap that Doc sells?


That it is.


----------



## Jove (Sep 19, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> Ooh, I'm digging that NATO. And is that the royal blue rubber strap that Doc sells?


The NATO and the orange silicone are both from the Fossil outlet store website ($8 each). I stumbled upon them shortly after buying the Spectre and thought they might work well with it.

https://www.fossil.com/us/en/products/nylon-watch-strap-stripe-sku-s221263p.html

For now, I'm going with Doc's matching royal blue rubber strap, with all its vanilla-scented goodness.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Jove said:


> The NATO and the orange silicone are both from the Fossil outlet store website ($8 each). I stumbled upon them shortly after buying the Spectre and thought they might work well with it.
> 
> https://www.fossil.com/us/en/products/nylon-watch-strap-stripe-sku-s221263p.html
> 
> For now, I'm going with Doc's matching royal blue rubber strap, with all its vanilla-scented goodness.


Just checked, and those NATOs must be sold out. Thanks anyway for the heads-up.



docvail said:


> That it is.


Kicking myself for not scoring one at a discounted rate when I bought the watch. Normally I'm not big on rubber/silicone straps, but that looks gooood...

Also, quick side story: Ordered a super jubilee with straight links from Strapcode via Amazon a few weeks ago.

Pause for quick note: This is NOT a hit on Strapcode. I've dealt with them before and always had good customer service. This is the first time I've ordered from them via Amazon rather than directly. In this case, I believe that their hands were tied by Amazon vendor policy.

Anyway, bracelet arrives and there are no end-links. Had to send it back, and I was so disheartened by the experience that I haven't tried to re-order yet. I might yet, but I'll do it directly from them rather than over Amazon. They're just more pricey directly (why, I don't know - shipping?) and I hate the wait from Hong Kong to the East Coast.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Just checked, and those NATOs must be sold out. Thanks anyway for the heads-up.
> 
> Kicking myself for not scoring one at a discounted rate when I bought the watch. Normally I'm not big on rubber/silicone straps, but that looks gooood...
> 
> ...


As a general rule of thumb, when someone selling a watch offers you an incentive to add on a strap, take it. Worst case scenario, you put it on a different watch, sell it, use it as a deal-sweetener in a private buy/sell/trade transaction, or give it away.

When we offer straps with watches, it's always a good deal - good strap/good value, no added shipping.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> As a general rule of thumb, when someone selling a watch offers you an incentive to add on a strap, take it. Worst case scenario, you put it on a different watch, sell it, use it as a deal-sweetener in a private buy/sell/trade transaction, or give it away.
> 
> When we offer straps with watches, it's always a good deal - good strap/good value, no added shipping.


Very well. You've schooled me, Doctor Vail. I feel appropriately schooled.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Obviously that's one of those things you write down on a lined list of sorts if you made lists with lines, which we now all know Doc Vail won't do the former without the latter if he would ever consider making a list at all. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

DevilRay likes Schmatos










And dark places










That Lume shot was taken as I entered the men's room after being charged with just the fluorescent lighting of the bull pen. X1 is some good stuff.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> ...That Lume shot was taken as I entered the men's room...


Did you look under the stalls for feet before turning the lights out, or...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Did you look under the stalls for feet before turning the lights out, or...


It's a one-hitter. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

So uh with the devilrays. The website says that they will be in stock around may 15. The ones currently arriving are from a different batch? Or is the 'in-stock' date not accurate on the website?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> So uh with the devilrays. The website says that they will be in stock around may 15. The ones currently arriving are from a different batch? Or is the 'in-stock' date not accurate on the website?


EDIT/PS - Not sure why the link I thought I copied didn't stick to the clipboard, but here's the right one:

https://mailchi.mp/janistrading/devilray-production-update-early-delivery-869769?e=[UNIQID]


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

You know what's funny about the Rolex Sub?

Before I joined WUS I thought the Rolex Sub was the perfect watch.

Then I discovered WUS, "homages", "Sub homages", and the idea of buying watches that were "there own thing and not a homage."

And then I started to see watches, and if they were too Sub "homagey" like with mercedes hands, I started to not like them.

And so, somehow, in about 15 months, I've gone all the way to not liking a Rolex Sub because it looks too much like a Rolex Sub.

Does that even make sense? LOL.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Hahaha same here brother. A year and a half the Rolex Sub was the end all be all watch for me.

I am not entirely sure how I stumbled upon WuS but boy, has it changed my views. merc hands drive me crazy at times but the sword hands of a milsub are where it is at for me now.

Of course because of WuS I have found NTH and soooo happy I did. I feel so connected with the DR and have watched it since i signed up to WuS. I am still a bit worried on my color choice but it is unique and know I will love it.

A picture is worth a thousands words, but a Devil Ray on a wrist is a sexy ass novel. I can not wait!!!



Toonces said:


> You know what's funny about the Rolex Sub?
> 
> Before I joined WUS I thought the Rolex Sub was the perfect watch.
> 
> ...


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I just remember the first time I thought, like a flash thought, "Man I don't like that Rolex, it has mercedes hands."

And then I was all like...oh, wait...ummmm....

Crap.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Hey doc, any updates on the watch gauge nacken delivery window? It was originally planned for mid april. Is this still realistic or is it getting pushed back?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Hey doc, any updates on the watch gauge nacken delivery window? It was originally planned for mid april. Is this still realistic or is it getting pushed back?


Time is just a man-made construct.


----------



## Jove (Sep 19, 2013)

docvail said:


> EDIT/PS - Not sure why the link I thought I copied didn't stick to the clipboard, but here's the right one:
> 
> https://mailchi.mp/janistrading/devilray-production-update-early-delivery-869769?e=[UNIQID]


Weird. Even though the text in your message is the link to your DevilRay production update, the URL it points to is a Blog To Watch article.









Here's a clickable link for anyone who, like me, was wondering what Rolex prices have to do with the DevilRay delivery schedule.

https://mailchi.mp/janistrading/devilray-production-update-early-delivery-869769?e=[UNIQID]


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Jove said:


> Weird. Even though the text in your message is the link to your DevilRay production update, the URL it points to is a Blog To Watch article.
> 
> View attachment 13012603
> 
> ...


Thanks, I was wondering about that. Good article though.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jove said:


> Weird. Even though the text in your message is the link to your DevilRay production update, the URL it points to is a Blog To Watch article.
> 
> View attachment 13012603
> 
> ...


Must be another glitch in the forum's software.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Jove (Sep 19, 2013)

docvail said:


> Must be another glitch in the forum's software.


I just figured you were Rickrolexing us.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Jove said:


> I just figured you were Rickrolexing us.


FTW. I wish I could like this post twice.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Time is just a man-made construct.


You cannot comprehend the meaning of so called life.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Now this is a proper sunburst dial. Lew and Huey Spectre II









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Time is just a man-made construct.


Yeah, well, you know, that's just like your opinion, man.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Chris, knowing how much you love dates and timelines, I was just wondering is there any sort of soft target for the new sub preorders? If it starts before I can make up my mind I'll just have to order 2.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skunkworks said:


> Chris, knowing how much you love dates and timelines, I was just wondering is there any sort of soft target for the new sub preorders? If it starts before I can make up my mind I'll just have to order 2.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


Not yet.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Ghost rider does not wait for Fannum Phrydae.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Have a Phantom Good Friday.









Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Soooo, having taken in that stray doggie Silver Cerberus some weeks ago, the opportunity to pair him with his half-brother Bloo was too good to miss. Through the good offices of Luke over in the land of perpetual sunshine - that'll be California - Bloo Cerberus arrived today, appropriately on Cerberus Saturday and here he is:

























Bloo's outrageous good looks speak for themselves, this really is a superbly detailed and styled watch with just perfect dimensions - when is that next Dawg Show???

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

No Cerberii here, but I do have a Mint and minty Azores with a chocolate Rally strap.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

MikeyT said:


> No Cerberii here, but I do have a Mint and minty Azores with a chocolate Rally strap.


Totally out there good looks too, just get a load of the shape of 3 - 6 - 9 - 12 in the triangles, still yearning for this.....

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Jove (Sep 19, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> DevilRay likes Schmatos
> 
> And dark places
> 
> That Lume shot was taken as I entered the men's room after being charged with just the fluorescent lighting of the bull pen. X1 is some good stuff.


Here's one taken after being outside for 90 seconds on a dreary, rainy afternoon. Pretty impressive.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Soooo, having taken in that stray doggie Silver Cerberus some weeks ago, the opportunity to pair him with his half-brother Bloo was too good to miss. Through the good offices of Luke over in the land of perpetual sunshine - that'll be California - Bloo Cerberus arrived today, appropriately on Cerberus Saturday and here he is:
> 
> View attachment 13022769
> 
> ...


If you tire of the blue/orange color scheme, you might swap the rehaut with your other piece, to make a blue-on-blue and an orange on white, like this...










Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Jove said:


> I just figured you were Rickrolexing us.


What the heck, people?? Nobody nominated this pure genius??

Rectified: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/year-end-giveaway-2018-f71-post-year-4666725.html#post45683551


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> If you tire of the blue/orange color scheme, you might swap the rehaut with your other piece, to make a blue-on-blue and an orange on white, like this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for that mod suggestion Doc, that really works too, certainly something to consider come tune-up time.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## synaptyx (Nov 25, 2013)

Over on BSHT the Brotherhood of Submariner Homages Thread this







means exactly the same as 'Incoming!' baby.


















It is also customary to post your unwrapping pics as a tease of the main event.



























































































7 links out for my 6.5" wrist. 












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

synaptyx said:


> Over on BSHT the Brotherhood of Submariner Homages Thread this means exactly the same as 'Incoming!' baby.
> 
> It is also customary to post your unwrapping pics as a tease of the main event.
> 
> ...


That's a lot of emojis.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone in the Atlanta area, I'll be at the GTG on the 28th of the month.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=4666599

Hit WUS moderator @gaopa with a PM for details.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## synaptyx (Nov 25, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Oh, the weather outside is frightful
But a DevilRay on an orange Isofrane is so delightful
And since we've no place to go
Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

Is the new nacken modern blue with date, the same colour as the first run of nacken modern blue?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Is the new nacken modern blue with date, the same colour as the first run of nacken modern blue?


Yep.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Since we brought the nacken up, i have a few new straps ready for the black one i pre-ordered. That watch is so versatile, very excited. I plan on buying a few leather straps and a grey mn strap(and then I will end up wearing it on a bracelet 99% of the time)


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Fannum Furzdaye.......

Posted all over the interwebz and now here too........









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

First the caveats: I'm still relatively new to the whole watch thing, and I'm sure that my attention to detail of what makes a watch super awesome is less than a TGV or other guy. But I do know what I like.

Today I went to lunch with one of my buds who was wearing his Rolex Sub. Turns out I had my Nacken on. So I had him give me his Rolex and I took off my Nacken and I looked very closely at the two side by side.

A comparison isn't exactly apples to apples because the sub (2001 version) had gilted (?) indices whereas my Nacken does not, and so the dial on the Rolex pops a bit more than the modern blue Nacken. But still. From my perspective, the only really noticeable difference between the two in terms of quality in appearance is that the Rolex seconds hand is much smoother. I suppose that's to be expected. I looked really closely at the band and the machining of the links and the polishing on the cases and the cut of the angles and so on. The Nacken holds its own IMO. Nothing about the Rolex really stood out as better or higher quality, or however you want to characterize it.

I'm not saying a Nacken is as good as a Rolex, whatever that even means. But from outward appearances, and on the wrist, the two were very comparable to me.

Of course, my friend's watch is almost 20 years old and mine is about 4 months old, so we'll see how my Nacken looks in 20 years and if it still holds up, but I must say that I'm happy to report that from a regular guy perspective the Nacken is an awfully nice watch compared to the big boys.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Put another way, if neither watch had a logo on the dial and I was offered both at the same price and I had to choose purely on aesthetics, it's a toss up which I would pick.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> First the caveats: I'm still relatively new to the whole watch thing, and I'm sure that my attention to detail of what makes a watch super awesome is less than a TGV or other guy. But I do know what I like.
> 
> Today I went to lunch with one of my buds who was wearing his Rolex Sub. Turns out I had my Nacken on. So I had him give me his Rolex and I took off my Nacken and I looked very closely at the two side by side.
> 
> ...


I always appreciate hearing when people like my work.

I actually admire Rolex in many ways, sincerely, albeit occasionally, sarcastically. This article offers a snapshot of why:

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/rolex-prices-past-60-years-revealing-analysis/









The saying goes, "Rolex makes the world's nicest $1,000 watch, they just charge $10,000 for it."

I don't completely agree. Rolex has invested in R&D, and changed the recipe over time. I don't really know EXACTLY how much it might cost to make a Rolex Sub, and what they should therefore sell for, but I can reason my way to a reasonable number.

They use 904, rather than 316L stainless. Among other differences, 904 has a higher nickel content, so it shines more, which is why they polish the hell out of everything. I guess they figure Rolex and blingtastic go together like teenagers and pimples.

It's not "precious" metal, but it is more expensive than 316. I think the higher nickel content would also make it softer than 316, which would be a functional disadvantage, but it's possible they do something to harden it. I don't know. If I had the resources, I wouldn't choose 904, and I certainly wouldn't polish the hell out of what we did use.

The Rolex movements are all in-house, and reputedly quite good. That said, I imagine a top-grade ETA 2892 or Eterna 39a could be adjusted/regulated to be just as accurate, if you need "Swiss". Recent arguments about accuracy have got me wondering how good a bargain-priced 9015 could be if we invested in 6-position adjustment/regulation during assembly. I know my watchmaker can get them to run within 1 sec/day. As it is, we're just making sure they all run within spec, and the performance is pretty good out of the box.

Your buddy's Sub probably has an anodized aluminum bezel insert. Maybe it's a little better than other inserts, but still, it'll scratch. If I bought a Sub today, I'd want a ceramic insert more, but, and I'm saying this honestly, I really prefer the DLC-coated steel inserts we've been using for the NTH Subs. They're unbreakable, and hold up well to abuse.

The Rolex bezel mechanism is actually very cool, in a geeky, engineering sort of way. I don't actually prefer it, but, it is cool, and the sound/tactile feel is awesome. Ginault figured out how to replicate that, in a watch that either costs $600 or $1300, I'm not sure which, but either way, it ain't $10,000.

The glide-lock clasp is also cool. Again, Ginault got one on a $600/$1300 watch, so...not driving the Rolex price too much, there.

Enamel dial? Meh, dials are a <$5 component. How much could a lick of enamel coating add to their cost?

Lume? Unless I just don't know about it, Rolex doesn't own the franchise on amazing lume.

Design? Meh. Iconic, perhaps, but I think they peaked 40-50 years ago, maybe earlier. And regardless, not driving the price.

So...figure an NTH sub, made out of a better metal (really better, not just shinier), same steel bezel insert, better clasp, enamel dial, same lume, CNC-machined end links ('cause even HWA will tell you, ya gotta have 'em if you wanna look like a baller), and a finely-tuned movement inside, running well inside COSC specs - how much?

Lemme see here...carry the two, put a one over the niner...call me crazy, but I think it's a $2,000-$2,500 watch*. Scale back on some of those features, you get an NTH Sub, that doesn't look or perform tremendously different.

I just did a quick search, and it looks like a Rolex "oystersteel" sub goes for $7500, and I guess AD's might come down to $6k. I don't see the added "value", but if you want the in-house movement, the shinier steel, and that logo, it's only triple. Resale value will likely hold stable for at least a few years, longer if Rolex doesn't get caught with over-production.

*As a benchmark for comparison, check out the Monta Ocean King - SW300 (2892 clone), appears very well-finished, has some nice features, and it's $1730 on a bracelet - https://montawatch.com/collections/oceanking/products/oceanking-60-minute-bezel. The added $300-$700 in my guestimate takes into account a more expensive metal with higher tooling costs, as compared to the 316 in the Monta.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That explains quite a bit. I said the dial "popped" more than the Nacken; I thought it was a function of the gilt on the hands and indices but now that you mention the enamel dial, yeah, I did notice that I just didn't recognize it for what it was.

Also, the case was shinier, but I couldn't put my finger on why. I just thought it was more polished. Yeah, you can notice the metal is different.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Fannum Phrydae.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Toonces said:


> From my perspective, the only really noticeable difference between the two in terms of quality in appearance is that the Rolex seconds hand is much smoother. I suppose that's to be expected.


Aren't the two movements running the same 28,800 BPH speed? Miyota 9015 vs Rolex 3130, right? Why would one appear smoother?

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> So...figure an NTH sub, made out of a better metal (really better, not just shinier), same steel bezel insert, better clasp, enamel dial, same lume, CNC-machined end links ('cause even HWA will tell you, ya gotta have 'em if you wanna look like a baller), and a finely-tuned movement inside, running well inside COSC specs - how much?
> 
> Lemme see here...carry the two, put a one over the niner...call me crazy, but I think it's a $2,000-$2,500 watch*. Scale back on some of those features, you get an NTH Sub, that doesn't look or perform tremendously different.
> 
> ...


I think the in-house movement has to count for more. I know it's market dynamic and not true value, but apart from C. Ward ("in-house" being used loosely there), Nomos, and the Baume & Mercier Baumatic, it's hard to get into any truly in-house movement for less than $3500 (and Nomos is steadily headed that way, with only a handful of models available under that price today). That's about the entre point for Omega, Tudor, Zenith, Eterna, and a few other brands.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

More expense for the brand, perhaps... but more functional benefit to the user? Unlikely.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> More expense for the brand, perhaps... but more functional benefit to the user? Unlikely.


It's a hard value proposition for me. When I fork out the cash for a top of the line fridge, it's because it's supposed to be more reliable and efficient, cost me less down the road. In house movements are the opposite, they cost more up front and tons more later to service. There's no real added benefit, other then assumed exclusivity, which is cool if that's important to you, but as far as contributing to making a better watch, not so much.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> I think the in-house movement has to count for more. I know it's market dynamic and not true value, but apart from C. Ward ("in-house" being used loosely there), Nomos, and the Baume & Mercier Baumatic, it's hard to get into any truly in-house movement for less than $3500 (and Nomos is steadily headed that way, with only a handful of models available under that price today). That's about the entre point for Omega, Tudor, Zenith, Eterna, and a few other brands.


In my view it counts less, as it restricts options for service (driving up maintenance costs), and Rolex is a major d1ck to independent repair shops.

In-house movements haven't ever factored into my calculations of real/true value. When I do the sort of analysis I did above, I'm strictly looking at production costs, and applying a reasonable multiple to come up with a retail cost.

I calculate a watch every bit as good as a Rolex Sub, in every objective way, could be produced and sold for $2,000-$2500.

Whether or not you'd be willing to pay more for a "Rolex" is exactly the advantage Rolex and others seek to perpetuate with talk of in-house movements, heritage, and other intangibles which add no utility, but might actually reduce value (as in, bang for the buck), or increase total ownership costs.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Riccardo for the end of the working week









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

docvail said:


> In my view it counts less, as it restricts options for service (driving up maintenance costs), and Rolex is a major d1ck to independent repair shops.
> 
> In-house movements haven't ever factored into my calculations of real/true value. When I do the sort of analysis I did above, I'm strictly looking at production costs, and applying a reasonable multiple to come up with a retail cost.
> 
> ...


I agree with Chris on this one. The fascination with overvaluing in-house movements is way out of control. I would rather have an industry standard or widely used movement vs something that some mid-sized brand cooked up.

I get it that many brands want to control their own destiny rather than being beholden to a giant that might yank them around on price, availability, or parts (like that's never been done). They also want to be seen as investing in themselves or creating something differentiating.

But for normal guys like me, we want reliability and serviceability at a reasonable cost.

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skipwilliams said:


> I agree with Chris on this one. The fascination with overvaluing in-house movements is way out of control. I would rather have an industry standard or widely used movement vs something that some mid-sized brand cooked up.
> 
> I get it that many brands want to control their own destiny rather than being beholden to a giant that might yank them around on price, availability, or parts (like that's never been done). They also want to be seen as investing in themselves or creating something differentiating.
> 
> ...


It does raise good questions for debate.

A company which makes its own movement is independent from a movement manufacturer, but then the customer has fewer options for support.

I'd like to see more development of "general standard" movements which either conform to standardized designs, or at least can be easily serviced by any watchmaker, without the manufacturers being able to dictate shop standards.

What I mean is, there's an independent watchmaker here in my town, and he routinely tells me about the stupid nonsense he has to put up with from Rolex and Omega, in order to keep his parts account with them and authorized status. His is a small, one man operation, yet they'll come in and demand he invest tens of thousands of dollars in new equipment and renovations, in a place he rents.

Without that authorized status, he can't maintain his parts accounts, and would effectivly be pushed out of business. The big brands seem to be pushing for just that, somewhat like auto dealerships looking to their repair shops as their best source of revenue. The big brands are consolidating power by forcing the service work to be done within the mother ship.

There are many imbalances of power at work in this industry. This is part of why I want to see more alternatives to the ETA base calibres, with comparable price vs performance profiles. My thinking is that it would help distribute power more evenly, and return some balance. It irks me that there are so few good choices, and all of them have their drawbacks.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## appophylite (Jan 11, 2011)

While i love hearing the story behind In-House movements, and I appreciate them, and their development, there is something to be said about whether or not the development justifies the massive prices that more and more companies are charging for luxury, high end watches these days.

Case in point - my parents are currently living in Saudi Arabia as ExPats while my dad works on a project with a university there. I had a chance to get a visa to visit them over March since tourist visas for Saudi Arabia still aren't a thing. Dad suggested that I not wear an expensive watch while I am there, so I decided to go with my Nth Scorpene as the watch of choice - relatively understated, but stands up to the conditions, since I knew it would have to deal with heat, sand blasting and some water. In spite of it being, in my opinion, a not-flashy watch, it did manage to attract a fair amount of attention while I was in Saudi Arabia, and even when I was at the airport in Dubai. Dubai had duty free stops for EVERY watch imaginable - Omega, Rolex, Breitling, Blancpain, Bremont, Breguet, Longines, Bvlgari, Frederique Constant, Cartier, Panerai, Tag Heuer - and even the sellers behind the counters, who go out of their way to catch a glimpse of what the person they are speaking to is wearing, were duly impressed by the build and quality of the Nth, and were impressed that the fit-and-finish of the Scorpene could be had for the prices Doc sells them at. I know my local watch repair guy who works in-house at my local Ben Bridge is also very impressed by the watch build and quality.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

We're a little far afield from my original point, which was not that in-house movements inherently justify higher prices. If Chris's point was that you could sell a watch of comparable quality to a Rolex Submariner for a "fair" retail price of $2000-2500, my point was that that price doesn't account enough for the in-house movement. (From the context I quoted I'd hoped it would be clear, but perhaps it was not, that by "counts for more," I did not mean as a measure of value, but as a cost). Whether or not we think the "in-house" label justifies stratospheric price increases (JLC, GO, etc.), a brand that actually develops, tools, and builds an in-house movement is entitled to a little premium to make back all of those costs. Precision manufacturing is not a cheap business to start or maintain.

In other words, based on everything Chris wrote re: what it could cost, and the bevy of other manufacturers offering entry-point prices for in-house movements at about the $3000-3500 level, it seems like that would actually be a "fair" or "reasonable" or "justifiable" price for a Submariner with an in-house movement in the current market. Build a watch molecule-to-molecule the equivalent of a Submariner, but with a 9015 in it, and we're probably looking at $2000-2500. But if we're going to accept that movements not made by mass-producers like Sellita or ETA are a thing, then we probably have to accept that they will come at a price premium purely as a function of overhead and material costs (whether or not, as Chris argues, this is inefficient at the market level).

Putting that last point another way: It is one thing to overvalue in-house movements (bad), and another thing to fetishize them (bad for the industry), and another still to properly value them (which is all I was trying to suggest).

I don't disagree with a single word anyone has said about overblown prices brands try to justify by the mere presence of in-house movements. I agree it limits consumer choice and contributes to power imbalance in the industry. But it is a thing commercial actors are free to pursue, so a rational economy should price it rationally.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

JakeJD, 
It might be a language or newbie barrier here, but I don't follow your reasoning.

For a company to take on the cost of developing a movement in-house, there should clearly be a better motivation present than just to call it their own.
I work at a small volume technology company, and we constantly face this type of dilemma, but it's always driven by the fact that the OEM parts offered are either too expensive for what they do or not as good as we want them to be. We never develop HW just to have it made in-house.
I think this is true also in the watch business, but with the added benefit that lots of watch buyers give into the marketing, and actually believe there is an added value. 

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

aicolainen said:


> JakeJD,
> It might be a language or newbie barrier here, but I don't follow your reasoning.
> 
> For a company to take on the cost of developing a movement in-house, there should clearly be a better motivation present than just to call it their own.
> ...


I'm not talking about whether anyone SHOULD, just that they already have.

EDIT: I don't want to get too much more bogged down in this -- It wasn't meant to be a broad critique. I totally agree with Chris's point that the Submariner is grossly overpriced; it was just a little quibble that I think maybe it's a small fraction less overpriced than he does. But either way I take well Chris's point that the reason for the difference between his estimate and mine -- that movement -- brings with it a significant hit to the value -- "bang for the buck," as he put it -- when you factor maintenance costs.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

aicolainen said:


> JakeJD,
> It might be a language or newbie barrier here, but I don't follow your reasoning.
> 
> For a company to take on the cost of developing a movement in-house, there should clearly be a better motivation present than just to call it their own.
> ...


Yea kinda lost me too.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

skunkworks said:


> Yea kinda lost me too.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

skunkworks said:


> Yea kinda lost me too.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


Just keep in mind that JakeJD is a lawyer....

Not that he's wrong.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> We're a little far afield from my original point, which was not that in-house movements inherently justify higher prices. If Chris's point was that you could sell a watch of comparable quality to a Rolex Submariner for a "fair" retail price of $2000-2500, my point was that that price doesn't account enough for the in-house movement. (From the context I quoted I'd hoped it would be clear, but perhaps it was not, that by "counts for more," I did not mean as a measure of value, but as a cost). Whether or not we think the "in-house" label justifies stratospheric price increases (JLC, GO, etc.), a brand that actually develops, tools, and builds an in-house movement is entitled to a little premium to make back all of those costs. Precision manufacturing is not a cheap business to start or maintain.
> 
> In other words, based on everything Chris wrote re: what it could cost, and the bevy of other manufacturers offering entry-point prices for in-house movements at about the $3000-3500 level, it seems like that would actually be a "fair" or "reasonable" or "justifiable" price for a Submariner with an in-house movement in the current market. Build a watch molecule-to-molecule the equivalent of a Submariner, but with a 9015 in it, and we're probably looking at $2000-2500. But if we're going to accept that movements not made by mass-producers like Sellita or ETA are a thing, then we probably have to accept that they will come at a price premium purely as a function of overhead and material costs (whether or not, as Chris argues, this is inefficient at the market level).
> 
> ...


I for one don't mind the discussion. Perhaps I ought to clarify some of what I said earlier.

When I think about pricing, I generally start by trying to estimate production costs as closely as I can, then I apply an "industry-standard" sort of markup to arrive at a retail price, then I'll go up or down from there, depending on various factors.

So, as a hypothetical example, let's say I calculate the "fair market price" (the retail price arrived at by applying the industry-standard markup to production costs) of a 300m WR diver with a 9015 in it is somewhere in the $500-$600 range. I may think a slightly lower or slightly higher price is warranted based on some added or missing feature, something about the design which makes it more unique or more generic, etc.

I might understand a $650-$700 price or a $450 price in context, but at the same time, I'd still say that based on production costs, the fair market price is still $500-$600, and anything above or below that is either a premium being paid for some reason, or a watch which is under-priced for some reason.

But, when we start to think about watches which cost more, yet don't offer proportionally more utility, the math starts to include more intangibles. The ETA 2824-2 costs more than the 9015, but it doesn't have any performance advantages, and arguably, it performs worse, so it raises questions about the "fairness" of the pricing which is just based on costs, regardless of utility. For many people, utility is the primary driver for how they view prices.

If you start to extrapolate outward, it isn't long before you start to question the "value" of concepts like "in-house" (in the intangible sense, without regard to the practical implications), decoration, "heritage", and incremental increases in quality or utility/performance, which generally come with disproportionately higher costs. For example, it may cost 50% more to get a watch which proves to be 5% better (I'm making up the numbers, but they are not unrealistic).

Rolex has an "in-house" movement. Forget any potential advantages it may have in performance or utility, total ownership costs, etc. Assume there is no difference in performance or utility. How much more are you willing to spend to get that movement, simply because you understand that Rolex spent money developing it?

I'm not dismissing its points of differentiation, I'm asking you to confine your thoughts, at least for a moment, to the specific question of how much "in-house" is worth, to you as a consumer? And as you're considering the question, ask yourself WHY, and try to work through the question logically...

Didn't ETA also invest money into the development of its calibres? Are you willing to pay more for an ETA in recognition that ETA spent R&D money? No? Why? Because they sell that movement to others? So what? How does that make a difference? Suppose they didn't. Would you suddenly think the movements were worth more?

Every product has a cost of development, period. It's built into the price of the product. It doesn't matter if the product is "open-architecture" or modular, with components being sourced from multiple vendors, or "in-house" with all components being the result of proprietary production.

The NTH Tropics and NTH DevilRay were priced at $700, partially because the Swiss STP movements cost more than the 9015, partially because I know the market is willing to pay more for a "Swiss" movement, partially because of their specs, and components, and designs, and the strength of my brand, etc, etc, etc.

Replace the movement with a 9015, they'd be priced a little less. Give them a Seiko, still less. Swap out the bracelet and clasp for something simpler, back down on the WR specs, simplify the design...it isn't long before they're $400-$500 watches.

Likewise, take the NTH Subs, add a Swiss movement, not just a 2824-2, but something "better" (read: "costs more"), like a 2892, or a Soprod, or an Eterna (something "sexier"), CNC-machine the end-links, use a better clasp, make sure the bracelet has better finishing, use a better (and in this case, I truly mean literally better) metal for the case and bracelet, with a higher commodity price and higher tooling costs...it's a $2,000-$2,500 watch.

Is the Rolex movement that much better than the 2892? How so? I don't think there's anything inherent to the design of that movement which gives it a performance/utility advantage over a well-regulated/well-adjusted 2892.

What is "utility" in a mechanical movement? I'd say it's timekeeping accuracy across all positions, in a wide-range of conditions, across the bulk of its power reserve, with long/longer power reserve, resistance to shock, low (or no) maintenance requirements, ease/low cost of repair/service, resistance to magnetism, and compact size. I think these are all the things we consider when judging all movements.

Most in-house calibres are at BEST, incrementally superior to the "workhorse" calibres, and only in SOME of those areas, at the cost of being WORSE in others.

The 3133 isn't vastly superior to a 9015 or STP in its power reserve - 48 hours, compared to 42-44 for the 9015/STP, and less than the 50hr PR of the Seiko 6r15.

And while Rolex makes sure all 3133's are "officially certified superlative chronometers", that's at least partly due to tuning (regulation/adjustment), not anything inherent in the design. A 9015 or STP could also be tuned to run -2/+2 a day, and they frequently are tuned to run that well. I've got a few running within 1 sec/day, and they came to me running that way.

Meanwhile, a single unit of the 9015 or STP can be bought for less than 1/5 the price of servicing the 3133. My local authorized Rolex guy charges $600, minimum, enough to buy an NTH Sub, or 6 pieces of the 9015 from Star Time Supply, with $60 left over, enough to have the first one installed, and pay a $10 parking ticket (the parking around the watchmaker I know is ridonkulous).

The Co-axial 8500 is also built for accuracy, and does have an admirable 60 hour power reserve, but it's also more complicated, thicker, with a lower beat rate (25,200 bph, or 7 bps, versus 28,800 bph, or 8 bps). Ramp that beat rate up, I'd bet the power reserve (and likely accuracy) would drop, and what you'd have is a thicker, more complicated, more expensive movement which doesn't perform remarkably better than a well-tuned 9015 or STP. Here again, they cost at least $600 to service, probably more.

It leads us (or at least, it leads me) to ask, what good is all that in-house R&D if there's no demonstrable functional advantage for me, and in fact, it comes at an exponentially higher cost of purchase and maintenance, and with several trade-offs I'm not entirely thrilled to accept, such as being thicker, or more temperamental?

The Soprod A10/M100 is a little more costly than a 2892, but has a similar performance profile. The Eterna 39a is even more expensive, and while it has a longer PR, it's a pretty marginal performer otherwise.

I know it probably seems like I'm a cheerleader for the 9015, but only because I'm a pragmatic sort, and it's got such an astounding performance-for-the-price profile.

How much did Miyota invest in developing it? More than Rolex invested in the 3133? Less? Do I care? Not really.

The question is, do you, and if you do, how much do you really care? Enough to spend 10x as much to get it, with servicing costs equal to the purchase price of a watch with a 9015, which will perform about 99% as well out of the box?

So, I gave you all an NTH Sub, which is about as good a watch as you can get for $600 (and arguably better than many which cost 50%-100% more), in every OBJECTIVE way. If I wanted to make you all a Rolex-killer, I'd put an ETA 2892 in it, use a better grade of steel, CNC the end-links, enamel the dial, use a better clasp, have the whole thing coated with industrial-chrome (not shiny), make sure the finish was baby's-bottom smooth, and charge you $2k-$3k for it.

It'd run as well, if not better than a Rolex, be tougher, cheaper to maintain, be as pretty (or prettier), and you could sneer at all the ponces wearing Subs which cost triple, for no good reason, other than "but, but, but, muh in-house!"


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

MikeyT said:


> Just keep in mind that JakeJD is a lawyer....
> 
> Not that he's wrong.


Now it makes sense. It was a really long winded way to say that even though it doesn't add value, it still incurs cost.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skunkworks said:


> Now it makes sense. It was a really long winded way to say that even though it doesn't add value, it still incurs cost.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


My post is even more long-winded.

Just sayin'.

My point is, I'm not even sure it really does add cost.

Okay, sure, a manufacturer who decides to develop their own in-house calibre will obviously incur R&D cost, assuming it's a plain-sheet design, but in-house movements can be developed from existing designs, too.

The main point is - even if you're using an existing calibre, someone paid to develop it, at some point. Even if you're Rolex, and you have to amortize the costs over all your production, c'mon, Rolex has HUGE volume. What sort of added cost per unit does that R&D entail, especially considering the result, which is...what, exactly, in terms of objective functional advantages?

And it's not like they just started R&D five or ten years ago. For crying out loud, they've been making watches since ***** got his first pair of sandals!

If Miyota and Seiko can develop all the calibres they do - dozens of calibres between them, launching a new one with what seems like semi-annual frequency, and not charge a king's ransom for them, why is the 3133 as expensive as it is - 10x what the 9015 costs, but with only 9.5% longer PR, and infinitesimally better accuracy, but with exponentially higher maintenance costs?


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Sometimes following this thread feels a lot like work...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

MikeyT said:


> Just keep in mind that JakeJD is a lawyer....
> 
> Not that he's wrong.


If he's a lawyer, he's wrong by definition, a priori, ipso factum cucumber.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I'm gonna regret this.

This is one of the most interesting series of posts in years, so unsilencing myself to celebrate it.

Some background:

Regarding the classic 5513 Submariner, it's actually the one that more or less followed the model worn by Sean Connery in Dr No that started this whole Sub thing.

The Bond model wasn't truly mass produced 'cos subs weren't A Thing then... but when the Bond product placement lit the blue touch paper, Rolex had a, erm, killer Sub on their hands. So they cleaned up a few design details, specifically shoved on the famous crown guards to cut down on mass warranty claims due to mass bent crowns, plus a few subtle dial details that allowed the Rolex factory to pop 'em out in their thousands.

There were further "refinements" over the years, aimed to make 'em easier to produce, mainly, but the 5513 remained in production for almost 30 years. Not bad.

I agree with Chris that the price in the 1960's for a Sub 5513 adjusted for inflation was somewhere in the region of $1,000 which does indeed beg the question as to why the modern replacement (114060) for the original 5513 costs 8x more.

So what's changed? Current Subs have sapphire crystals, a case made from nicer metal, an evolved inhouse movement, all shoved into a watch largely designed, assembled and finished in Switzerland (more or less, the higher-end brands still do offshore but to a lesser extent than say a Tissot or (cough) an Omega).

So let's be fair and assume that the massively improved modern Rolex Sub in terms of size, materials, complexity and finish (they're basically flawless from the factory, which no one could ever have claimed the original 5513 to be) justifies a 2x price increase. So we're at $2,000... still a tad shy of the $8,000.

Much of Switzerland was impoverished in the 1960s but is now part of a successful, modern, first world economy with insane real estate costs, insane living costs, insane labour costs.

Insane labour costs? Americans should look away now. The average Swiss family house (a modest one, but big enough for a normal family) costs around $1 million. Yep. Have a look on homegate.ch and see for yourself. In and around the main cities, double that. In the areas where watch manufacturing/assembly takes place it's more towards the average. And the cost of living reflects the real estate prices, believe me. As to the average wages for skilled labour? We're talking about $100,000 per annum rising to $150,000 per annum. Non-Swiss Europeans should also look away now. The tax rate is around a third all in. Senior management in the less fashionable industries easily hits 200k and rises north of that if its Banking, pharmaceuticals, precision industry, luxury goods... the Swiss are having quite a party.

So, to take into account the differential between the 1960s Swiss economy and the insanity of the current economy I'm gonna double the modern Sub price again to $4,000.

Ok, so how can Rolex justify charging $8,000? They can't, so hats off to them that their reputation and marketing muscle allows 'em to get away with it. Everyone loves a winner, babe, that's the truth.

Now, a slight change of tack.

If, just if, someone could make a (largely) Swiss designed and Swiss assembled Sub equivalent to the same modern high-end standard of finishing, fancy Rolex-type materials, with a brand name of some historical kudos, then what would it cost?

Answer: $4,000 of course. Silly question. See above.

Thus if yer want a brand new modern Rolex Sub equivalent at the truly "correct" $4,000 price then yer should be buying a Tudor Submariner/Black Bay (delete as appropriate). Which is what I should have started this post with, but sheesh, I'm too lazy to rewrite all this now.

And if a $4,000 Tudor is too rich for yer blood, then talk to Chris and get an NTH for a fraction of the cost. They're better looking than any Rolex Sub or Black Bay and there's enough variation to accomodate most tastes and fetishes. Absolute bargain of the century, I'd say.

Ric

p.s. I bought meself a vintage 1966 Rolex Sub 5513 a while back and it's on a bond nato 'cos I wanna be like Sean Connery (Given up on trying to be like George Clooney). Women will swoon, great men admire, lesser men mutter foul oaths into their tangled beards, and horses rear up then bolt... Erm, no one's even glanced at it yet, but I'm hoping.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ dude, where are the pictures?


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...
> 
> If I wanted to make you all a Rolex-killer, I'd put an ETA 2892 in it, use a better grade of steel, CNC the end-links, enamel the dial, use a better clasp, have the whole thing coated with industrial-chrome (not shiny), make sure the finish was baby's-bottom smooth, and charge you $2k-$3k for it.


My question is, could you do this if you did everything in a watch factory that you own and operate in the USA? If you imported the movements, but did everything else in your factory, how much would it cost?

I was just in Switzerland and picked up my Direnzo. My cousins were interested in it until I mentioned it had a Japanese movement. It spurred a discussion, most if which was beyond my level of German. Their criticism wasn't so much on quality, but that China was steeling Swiss jobs(yes, the Seiko movement is Japanese, but that point was lost).










Had to add a pic not to be a worthless post...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> My question is, could you do this if you did everything in a watch factory that you own and operate in the USA? If you imported the movements, but did everything else in your factory, how much would it cost?
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


I don't know.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ric Capucho said:


> p.s. I bought meself a vintage 1966 Rolex Sub 5513 a while back and it's on a bond nato 'cos I wanna be like Sean Connery (Given up on trying to be like George Clooney). Women will swoon, great men admire, lesser men mutter foul oaths into their tangled beards, and horses rear up then bolt... Erm, no one's even glanced at it yet, but I'm hoping.


Did you go fully authentic with the tiny nato so you can show off some manly spring bar action? Bet you'll get noticed the.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ric Capucho said:


> I'm gonna regret this.
> 
> This is one of the most interesting series of posts in years, so unsilencing myself to celebrate it.
> 
> ...


The math to go from 2k to 4k was, let's say, inelegant, but whatever, it was a fun read. I would think that increase was for the most part included in the inflation adjustment, cost of doing business and all, but I'm no economics expert.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Most importantly I finally chased down an Oberon, woot! Chris do you keep extra inserts for these? Looks like someone took a hammer to this one, I can live with the wabi if I have to, but curious if I have an option not to?









Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> Did you go fully authentic with the tiny nato so you can show off some manly spring bar action? Bet you'll get noticed the.


I read this post twice, and remained baffled. So I read it again, and nope don't get it.

So I liked it.

Ric


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I think he means the Strap being too small for the massive bars like the pic lol.









Ric Capucho said:


> I read this post twice, and remained baffled. So I read it again, and nope don't get it.
> 
> So I liked it.
> 
> Ric


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I think he means the Strap being too small for the massive bars like the pic lol.

View attachment 13040565


Ric Capucho said:


> I read this post twice, and remained baffled. So I read it again, and nope don't get it.
> 
> So I liked it.
> 
> Ric


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Toonces said:


> ^ dude, where are the pictures?


I understood this. So I studied the picture for some minutes just in case.

Note the hairy arms, very Connery-like.

Background are the rolling dunes of Switzerland.

Ric


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Nice. I'm glad you appropriately sized that strap. That Bond picture is a damn travesty.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Toonces said:


> Nice. I'm glad you appropriately sized that strap. That Bond picture is a damn travesty.


In the day, it was probably "who cares?" And they were right. Nobody cared.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> In the day, it was probably "who cares?" And they were right. Nobody cared.


I cared.

Ric


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

docvail said:


> If Miyota and Seiko can develop all the calibres they do - dozens of calibres between them, launching a new one with what seems like semi-annual frequency, and not charge a king's ransom for them, why is the 3133 as expensive as it is - 10x what the 9015 costs, but with only 9.5% longer PR, and infinitesimally better accuracy, but with exponentially higher maintenance costs?


That's something that I wish someone would explains _rationally_ to me. WTH does it COST more to service a Rolex or similar watch?

I know the popular answer is "if you bought a Rolex, you can afford the service cost", but it is still superbly irritating. If their movements are so damned good that they charge 10x over Japanese, they should cost less to maintain.

The whole high price = high service cost is a scam. Brands do it all over the world. Think about cars....Ferrari = high purchase cost, even higher service cost. I'm currently car shopping for a luxury sedan and Mercedes service cost is why I just took 'em off my list. Also the fact that CR has no Mercedes on their top recommendations. It'll be Audi or Lexus for me.

But for all the big watch brands, I see their HUGE marketing efforts with worldwide sports sponsorships, ambassadors, etc. that money has to come from somewhere....and it comes from volume * higher prices. They charge more because they can and justify it with incremental improvements.

By the way I work in the Pharmaceutical industry, which is the king of "I charge more because I can" mentality.

Thanks Chris for trying to start up an effort to develop an alternative, standard movement offering. I hope it is successful.

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



skunkworks said:


> The math to go from 2k to 4k was, let's say, inelegant, but whatever, it was a fun read. I would think that increase was for the most part included in the inflation adjustment, cost of doing business and all, but I'm no economics expert.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


It may be Ric was assuming my hypothetical Sub-hunter involved a lot of Swiss labor, and if so, his math may be more right than mine. At the least, it makes sense if all he meant to do was peg the "real" value of an actual Rolex.

I honestly didn't think much about the "where" of it all. But now that I am, I don't think I'd go fully "Swiss Made" with it. I think it's possible to achieve the same quality of result with a lower labor cost, or labor premium, which is probably a more accurate term to use if we're paying more to get "Swiss", as opposed to simply getting "better".

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skunkworks said:


> Most importantly I finally chased down an Oberon, woot! Chris do you keep extra inserts for these? Looks like someone took a hammer to this one, I can live with the wabi if I have to, but curious if I have an option not to?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Best to contact me through the support page on my site if you have support needs.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> ^ dude, where are the pictures?


I'm not a real doctor, certainly not an orthopedist, but the curve in the young lady's spine looks unhealthy to me, so if you see her, please mention she should come see me, so I can check it out more closely.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skipwilliams said:


> That's something that I wish someone would explains _rationally_ to me. WTH does it COST more to service a Rolex or similar watch?
> 
> I know the popular answer is "if you bought a Rolex, you can afford the service cost", but it is still superbly irritating. If their movements are so damned good that they charge 10x over Japanese, they should cost less to maintain.
> 
> ...


I try to remember the luxury pricing phenomenon was born from the quartz crisis, and further remember that was driven by Japan, which has always had a dramatically different approach to its treatment of "luxury", versus how it develops, prices and presents products.

Simply looking at prices, and assuming they're all justified/rational is flawed logic, but many folks do just that, and it's understandable why they believe a more expensive Swiss movement MUST be better than a less-expense Japanese movement.

But that ignores the fact that the Swiss began raising prices in order to position their products as "luxury" goods in comparison to lower-cost/better-performing goods from Japan, where they don't seem to feel any pressure to play such psychological games.

If the Swiss developed the 9015, the movement would cost much more than it does, not because of higher Swiss labor costs - Japan has high labor costs too! - but because the Swiss believe they CAN charge more.

Japan has always charged less for better products. Bang for the buck is their stock in trade, not lifestyle marketing, which ought to strike every rational person as a ploy to sell over-priced goods.

This is why I've said it was a strategic error for Miyota to price the 9015 as low as they did, and why I say it's criminally underrated, compared to the more expensive ETA 2824-2, which many folks still seem to prefer for some reason.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> This is why I've said it was a strategic error for Miyota to price the 9015 as low as they did, and why I say it's criminally underrated, compared to the more expensive ETA 2824-2, which many folks still seem to prefer for some reason.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Speaking of which, where does the STP1-11 fall in this? It is a Swiss-made drop-in replacement for the 2824-2, is it not?


----------



## georgefl74 (Jun 18, 2015)

The Japanese love long-term plans. Their most valued marketing cues refer to 'the lonely mechanic that persisted for years', cue Spring drive's commercial on youTube. 

Miyota probably underpriced the 9015 to create a positive buzz on their movements. They had a bad rep with the cheapo 8200. Even Invicta quit them.

Why would they sacrifice profit on the mid-range for fame? Cause mama Citizen plans to go mechanical on their luxury line down the road. They threw a couple of models in there to see if it would work a couple of years ago (CTY57-1271/2, NA0000-59E). Now, silence. That's ominous. 

Citizen is under huge pressure with all those new toys around, all the smartwatches, fitbits, etc. Its eating into their core business, the mid-range. They have to follow Seiko's lead with the GS line and move upstream. They need to go mechanical to do that. They've already taken a page off Seiko's manual with the new re-issued chronographs in Basel. That's the next logical step.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> I try to remember the luxury pricing phenomenon was born from the quartz crisis, and further remember that was driven by Japan, which has always had a dramatically different approach to its treatment of "luxury", versus how it develops, prices and presents products.


That's not entirely true. Swiss watches have always been a luxury item. People bought Swiss because it was "better". The American dolar watch was a reaction to expensive Swiss watches and an attempt to open the market to less affluent. People still made the investment in an expensive Swiss watch when they could afford to. The dollar watch should have had the same impact on the Swiss watch industry, but it didn't. Why?



docvail said:


> Simply looking at prices, and assuming they're all justified/rational is flawed logic, but many folks do just that, and it's understandable why they believe a more expensive Swiss movement MUST be better than a less-expense Japanese movement.


Is this the same logic used when purchasing a Cadillac over a Chevy?



docvail said:


> If the Swiss developed the 9015, the movement would cost much more than it does, not because of higher Swiss labor costs - Japan has high labor costs too! - but because the Swiss believe they CAN charge more.


True, and the market agrees with them. The Swiss are known for precision equipment, and have been for a long time. The Japanese are gaining, but not their reputation.



docvail said:


> Japan has always charged less for better products. Bang for the buck is their stock in trade, not lifestyle marketing, which ought to strike every rational person as a ploy to sell over-priced goods.


Not into lifestyle marketing? You have got to go to Japan. As for charging less, the market is still unwilling to pay a premium for most Japanese good, be it watches, cars, or electronics. There always seems to be a European company that can get more. Rich Japanese drive Benz and BMW and wear IWC and Rolex.



georgefl74 said:


> Miyota probably underpriced the 9015 to create a positive buzz on their movements. They had a bad rep with the cheapo 8200. Even Invicta quit them.


It's a 40+year old movement known as a workhorse. Companies are stopping using them because the market is changing. Even Seiko's bulletproof 7s26 was replaced by the winding/hacking nh15.

The reality is that Rolex is appropriately priced. The market has spoken and it seems that many people are willing to pay a premium price for a Rolex, whether you and I think it's worth it or not. I think Rolex markets well and the have managed to survive as a private Swiss company, employing Swiss technicians. I'd be intrigued to know just how much, or little, of its manufacturing is outsourced. (I'd like to see the proof anyone decides to goes off on a 60% Swiss Made rant.) But as it goes, it has to be worth it, or people wouldn't buy it, right?

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Speaking of which, where does the STP1-11 fall in this? It is a Swiss-made drop-in replacement for the 2824-2, is it not?


It's up there with the Miyota, but I'd give the edge to the 9015.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

georgefl74 said:


> The Japanese love long-term plans. Their most valued marketing cues refer to 'the lonely mechanic that persisted for years', cue Spring drive's commercial on youTube.
> 
> Miyota probably underpriced the 9015 to create a positive buzz on their movements. They had a bad rep with the cheapo 8200. Even Invicta quit them.
> 
> ...


I don't think smart watches or fitbits are eating into any watch sales.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> That's not entirely true. Swiss watches have always been a luxury item. People bought Swiss because it was "better". The American dolar watch was a reaction to expensive Swiss watches and an attempt to open the market to less affluent. People still made the investment in an expensive Swiss watch when they could afford to. The dollar watch should have had the same impact on the Swiss watch industry, but it didn't. Why?
> 
> Is this the same logic used when purchasing a Cadillac over a Chevy?
> 
> ...


Too much here to debate it all, and too little interest for me.

Let's agree to vehemently disagree.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Speaking of which, where does the STP1-11 fall in this? It is a Swiss-made drop-in replacement for the 2824-2, is it not?





docvail said:


> It's up there with the Miyota, but I'd give the edge to the 9015.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Sorry, I was thinking about how I've ranked it in my mind, from the perspective of having used them in bulk.

On paper, the STP1-11 is better than the 9015, which is better than the standard and elabore grades of the ETA 2824-2, if we're only looking at specs and features. The STP1-11's specs and features are somewhere between an elabore and top grade 2824-2, but with a longer power reserve.

On paper, the STP has a longer PR than the 9015, is adjusted to more positions, and its accuracy specs are more constrained.

If you layer in price, meaning what they cost to buy in bulk, the 9015's performance for the price and the STP's are very comparable bang-for-the-buck propositions. Which is the better value might fluctuate with their prices at any given time, as the movement prices change periodically.

If you layer in maintenance intervals and service costs, the 9015 pulls ahead. The 9015 was introduced in 2010. Its service life is now 8 years and still running strong. If it proves as maintenance-free as Japanese movements from the '70's, it will trounce the Swiss movements, which require servicing no less frequently than every 7 years.

If you're me, and you see the defect rates and the relative uniformity of performance across a lot of pieces, and you understand the value of things like design simplicity as they relate to ease of repair, it's no contest. The 9015 wins, hands down.

The STP is good, and its specs are better on paper, but the 9015 is a better overall value, and better all around, in my view, especially as it routinely outperforms its specs.

It's unfortunate that the 9015's price and availability have made it seem less "sexy" to many enthusiasts. Again, I may be weird in that I view many things through a lens tinted by financial implications, but to me, its elegance, (relatively) no-nonsense behavior, and bang for the buck make it sexy as hell.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

macosie said:


> That's not entirely true. Swiss watches have always been a luxury item. People bought Swiss because it was "better". The American dolar watch was a reaction to expensive Swiss watches and an attempt to open the market to less affluent. People still made the investment in an expensive Swiss watch when they could afford to. The dollar watch should have had the same impact on the Swiss watch industry, but it didn't. Why?
> 
> True, and the market agrees with them. The Swiss are known for precision equipment, and have been for a long time. The Japanese are gaining, but not their reputation.
> 
> The reality is that Rolex is appropriately priced. The market has spoken and it seems that many people are willing to pay a premium price for a Rolex, whether you and I think it's worth it or not. I think Rolex markets well and the have managed to survive as a private Swiss company, employing Swiss technicians. I'd be intrigued to know just how much, or little, of its manufacturing is outsourced. (I'd like to see the proof anyone decides to goes off on a 60% Swiss Made rant.) But as it goes, it has to be worth it, or people wouldn't buy it, right?


Mmno, your take on the swiss watch industry always being perceived as "better" or "higher quality" is wrong. And, incidentally, a result of heavy, directed swiss advertising throughout the last few decades.

You should read through the excellent recap / history of the industry, published on Hodinkee (but written on much much higher standard). https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/four-revolutions-introduction . In particular, part 1 (covering quartz crisis and the industry state before) and part 3 (swiss repositioning as luxury in the 90s, and the entire industry history from the first mechanical watches up to 1970s) are pertinent to the claims you made.

As an interesting extract, here's one from that series...


> The inescapable fact that a mechanical device can only tell time approximately could easily be hidden by writing "Superlative Chronometer, Officially Certified (i.e., the COSC certificate) on the dial ...


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

"Again, I may be weird in that I view many things through a lens tinted by financial implications, but to me, its elegance, (relatively) no-nonsense behavior, and bang for the buck make it sexy as hell. "

I wanna meet your wife

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> It's unfortunate that the 9015's price and availability have made it seem less "sexy" to many enthusiasts. Again, I may be weird in that I view many things through a lens tinted by financial implications, but to me, its elegance, (relatively) no-nonsense behavior, and bang for the buck make it sexy as hell.


Yeah; the tricky part is that at consumer end, there's very little way to tell which movements are truly reliable and which are actually not. You get to see the return rates etc.; we only have anecdotal evidence and hearsay.

And, unfortunately, the hearsay part is very heavily polluted: how many people have you seen referring to the 2824 as "venerable", "reliable" and "time tested"? Even though the damn things break from handwinding and require regular servicing.

Likewise, the 7s26, nh35, m9015 etc. all get labelled "reliable" just becuase they are from japan and cheap; there is almost no reference to true evaluations... Except for the 7s26 et al. test of "old seikos that ran for 40+ years", which, fine.. but we don't know if that truly applies to 4r36, for example. It probably does, but usually nobody's giving a good reason, beyond "lol japan".

That's kinda why (imo) it's great that you give out some of these hints about reliability-across-scale. It's good to get verification that the 9015 is a good (great?) movement for better, more quantifiable reasons than just "lol japan".


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Azores today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

This is all amazing to me. 

I am just over a year of WuSdome, far from being a savant. I can honestly say I hope I never, EVER get to the point of being a movement snob or feel I have to complain and argue over having a watch be +1 or -1 sec over a day. I hate being late, I always try for 15 min early no matter where I go. I feel I do not have a need to measure this time in seconds.

Again I am a nub so maybe after a few more hundred posts my view may vary and I am not slamming anyone for theirs. I just have other things to worry about then being 1 tenth of a second late.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah; the tricky part is that at consumer end, there's very little way to tell which movements are truly reliable and which are actually not. You get to see the return rates etc.; we only have anecdotal evidence and hearsay.
> 
> And, unfortunately, the hearsay part is very heavily polluted: how many people have you seen referring to the 2824 as "venerable", "reliable" and "time tested"? Even though the damn things break from handwinding and require regular servicing.
> 
> ...


Indeed, much of people's opinions about movements is based on very limited anecdotal info, and I frequently wonder if their opinions might change if they understood the odds of having to go through the hassle of returning a watch with a defective movement, or if they've ever looked into expected service costs.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Mmno, your take on the swiss watch industry always being perceived as "better" or "higher quality" is wrong. And, incidentally, a result of heavy, directed swiss advertising throughout the last few decades.
> 
> You should read through the excellent recap / history of the industry, published on Hodinkee (but written on much much higher standard). https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/four-revolutions-introduction . In particular, part 1 (covering quartz crisis and the industry state before) and part 3 (swiss repositioning as luxury in the 90s, and the entire industry history from the first mechanical watches up to 1970s) are pertinent to the claims you made.
> 
> As an interesting extract, here's one from that series...


The Hodinkee article is great, but it is only based on the watch industry since the introduction of quartz tech. The Swiss watch-making reputation goes back much further than that. The American 'dollar watch' I refer to goes back to the 1900s. I recall reading that Ingersoll believed that the watch industry at the time was too expensive for the average American and came up with the one-dollar watch. The Swiss do like to toot their own horn a fair bit, but Swiss precision is a matter of pride. (Just take a train in Switzerland and you see it.) When you look at the history of companies like Bulova, Waterbury(the 'Switzerland of America')and others, you will see reference to Swiss watch/clock making. Swiss clock making has been famous for hundreds of years. If that is a product of marketing, then they have been doing a good job. Supposedly, Gandhi allowed himself one luxury item, a Swiss Zenith pocket watch which recently sold at auction. 
I'm not actually saying that Swiss watches are better. I'm saying that the global perception is that Switzerland is a country that is known for making high-quality precision tools, including watches. Therefore, people generally accept that Swiss is better and thus justifies it's higher price tag. Prove to me that this perception is wrong? Even Doc says that people want Swiss movements because they believe or perceive Swiss watches to be better. I'm not saying they are better and more precise but prove they are not? Of course, there is the quartz argument, but it is known that both the Swiss and Japanese developed 'quartz watch' technology independently at about the same time in the late 60s. The Swiss declined to continue to develop it because they felt the tech was too expensive to be practical. Big blunder. Seiko saw things differently and capitalized.
I still want you to prove that people don't perceive Swiss watchmaking as 'better'. Perhaps we can look at all the homage to Japanese, Chinese and American watches out there and compare with just homages to Rolex.


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> but we don't know if that truly applies to 4r36, for example. It probably does, but usually nobody's giving a good reason, beyond "lol japan".


Realistically speaking, why wouldn't it? It's exactly the same as a 7S26 but with a hacking lever, handwinding, and better regulation.


----------



## georgefl74 (Jun 18, 2015)

docvail said:


> I don't think smart watches or fitbits are eating into any watch sales.


Citizen does b-) http://www.citizen.co.jp/files/AR2017.pdf


> Competition in the watch market is intensifying not only against
> Japanese brands, but also against high-end Swiss brands, low-end
> Chinese manufacturers and smart watch manufacturers along with
> alternative products such as mobile phones with watch functions. With
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh.

I didn't want to do this, but since you don't seem to want to let it go...



macosie said:


> The Hodinkee article is great, but it is only based on the watch industry since the introduction of quartz tech.


Perhaps, but the quartz "crisis" is called that for a reason, no? Japanese superiority in affordable timekeeping almost bankrupted the Swiss watch brands - in fact it did lead to many of them going bankrupt, and rampant consolidation.

If the Swiss already had a century of marketing to back up the image of Swiss superiority - in any way - wouldn't that have made the crisis a non-event?

Prior to WWII, Switzerland was NOT the leader in watchmaking, by any stretch. The USA and UK were. But WWII happened, our fighting men went off to war, our watch and clock making machines turned to making gun parts, the Swiss stayed neutral, and by the '50's, had gained an advantage over the USA and UK in watchmaking, which wasn't a big deal, since both the USA and UK led in in other industries which were deemed more important.



macosie said:


> The Swiss watch-making reputation goes back much further than that. The American 'dollar watch' I refer to goes back to the 1900s. I recall reading that Ingersoll believed that the watch industry at the time was too expensive for the average American and came up with the one-dollar watch.


And? What of it? Do you realize that most watches in general circulation at the turn of the 20th century were produced in America, not in Switzerland?



macosie said:


> The Swiss do like to toot their own horn a fair bit, but Swiss precision is a matter of pride. (Just take a train in Switzerland and you see it.)


Again, and? We're talking about the Swiss now, right? What point are you making? Mine was about luxury, not about precision.

If the Swiss watch industry was so into precision, why did they willingly cede the accuracy advantage to Japan, by shifting the focus of their efforts from quartz to mechanical, which is less accurate?

Answer - They knew they couldn't compete with Japan in accuracy vs cost, so they made a strategic investment in lifestyle marketing, to promote the idea the Swiss MECHANICAL watches are luxury goods, and accuracy is a secondary concern.

When did that happen? Hundreds of years ago? Nope, it was the late '70's/early '80's. Prior to that, Swiss watches were time-telling tools, after that, luxury goods.



macosie said:


> When you look at the history of companies like Bulova,...


Bulova is an American company, by the way.



macosie said:


> ...Waterbury(the 'Switzerland of America')and others, you will see reference to Swiss watch/clock making.


I've never heard of the "Waterbury" Company. Google turned up a Waterbury Development Corporation, a non-profit in CT. Do you mean Timex? They're Chinese-owned.

Regardless, references to Swiss watch/clock making are - wait for it - marketing. Fabricated heritage is - wait for it - marketing. I can refer to my family's long and storied history in the construction industry, that doesn't make me a master builder, nor does it make my family a development dynasty.

The truth is both my grandfathers worked in construction, one commercial, one residential, but I'm lucky if I can hit a nail straight 8 out of 10 times I swing a hammer.

Diamond ads show attractive people in love. They don't show peasants digging in the ground at gunpoint. That's advertising and marketing for you.



macosie said:


> Swiss clock making has been famous for hundreds of years.


Nothing outside the Bible and history books has been famous for hundreds of years, certainly not Swiss watch or clock making.

It was an ENGLISH carpenter, John Harrison, who gave the world the first accurate clocks, in the early/mid 1700's.

Swiss clock makers stole most of their designs from the USA and UK until the mid 1900's. Anyone who tells you different is either lying to you or doesn't know their a$$ from their elbow.



macosie said:


> If that is a product of marketing, then they have been doing a good job.


The completely fabricated history you've laid out? Most of that is a product of marketing. The rest is likely imagination. Yours, or someone else's.

But, yes, the Swiss have done a masterful job of convincing the world they're better than the Japanese at something the Japanese are way better at doing. It only took them 35 years and billions of dollars in ad spend to do it, too!



macosie said:


> Supposedly, Gandhi allowed himself one luxury item, a Swiss Zenith pocket watch which recently sold at auction.


He took a vow of poverty. Had he not, he might have been able to afford an American-made pocket-watch from Hamilton, Waltham, Elgin, or any number of other American watch companies which all turned out a better product than the Swiss, until shortly before Ghandi's death in 1948.



macosie said:


> I'm not actually saying that Swiss watches are better.


Why not? Some might be better.

I suppose we should ask better than what?

Better than Japanese? Sure, if you're comparing an incredibly well-made yet affordable Japanese watch to something which costs exponentially more from Switzerland, I could see the Swiss watch maybe being a little bit better, maybe, if you believe it to be true, I guess.



macosie said:


> I'm saying that the global perception is that Switzerland is a country that is known for making high-quality precision tools, including watches.


Name one high-quality precision tool Switzerland is known for making, not including watches or clocks.

One.

I'll wait.

The global perception is thanks to billions of dollars invested in marketing over decades. They bought themselves an image of being the world's best watchmakers. They're not, really, the Japanese are, but the Japanese don't so much care what people outside Japan think. They're too busy enjoying all the superior things they make at a lower cost.



macosie said:


> Therefore, people generally accept that Swiss is better and thus justifies it's higher price tag.


Therefore?

Let me get this straight...I say decades of lifestyle marketing has convinced most of the world that the Swiss are the best at doing something the Japanese actually do better, something the USA and UK were the best at before the USA and UK stopped doing it, you agree with me that most of the world believe the Swiss are super-duper the best at it, and...

I honestly can't follow the logic on this one. It seems like what I've said is obvious, and yet you disagree with me, and to prove your point, you repeat back to me exactly what I said in the first place, that luxury prices are the result of deliberate efforts to position Swiss watches as luxury goods.



macosie said:


> Prove to me that this perception is wrong?


When was the last time anyone proved anything to anybody on the internet?



macosie said:


> Even Doc says that people want Swiss movements because they believe or perceive Swiss watches to be better.


Doc has also spent a lot of his time on this forum debunking common myths, and one of his favorite myths to debunk is the illusion of Swiss superiority in watchmaking.

I've noticed the widespread perceptions. Hence, why I've invested energy in debunking the myths which drive them.

Again, I'm not sure I follow the logic here.



macosie said:


> I'm not saying they are better and more precise but prove they are not?


Three words: Seiko Spring Drive.



macosie said:


> Of course, there is the quartz argument, but it is known that both the Swiss and Japanese developed 'quartz watch' technology independently at about the same time in the late 60s. The Swiss declined to continue to develop it because they felt the tech was too expensive to be practical. Big blunder. Seiko saw things differently and capitalized.


Where are you getting this? It isn't true, not even close. Read this - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-16/a-concise-history-of-the-quartz-watch-revolution.

The Swiss were caught off guard by Seiko's superiority in quartz timekeeping, tried to keep up, failed in a spectacular way, almost disappeared as an industry, borrowed enough money from Swiss banks to threaten the Swiss banking industry with a default-contagion-fueled collapse, more than half a billion Swiss Francs, until the banks begged Nick Hayek to rescue them all from oblivion in 1983.

The devastating financial losses forced the Swiss to cut industry employment - 1985 figures were about 1/3 what they were in 1970 - and reduce production volume by more than half. Hayek saw that in order to not only sustain but rebuild the Swiss industry, they'd have to give up competing head-to-head against Japan, and re-position Swiss watches as luxury goods, with a commensurate price hike.

Prior to the late '70's, a Swiss mechanical watch was still quite affordable for someone earning a median income in the USA. By the late '80's, and especially in the 90's, Swiss brands invested millions of dollars in building up the market perception that a Swiss watch was one of the main trappings of true wealth.



macosie said:


> I still want you to prove that people don't perceive Swiss watchmaking as 'better'. Perhaps we can look at all the homage to Japanese, Chinese and American watches out there and compare with just homages to Rolex.


Why would I prove the exact opposite of what I said in the first place?



macosie said:


> That's not entirely true. Swiss watches have always been a luxury item.


Not true. That started in the mid- to late '80's.



macosie said:


> People bought Swiss because it was "better".


Also not true. The "Swiss Made" label was actually invented in the UK, so proper English gentlemen could avoid buying shoddy Swiss-made watches.

True story.



macosie said:


> The American dolar watch was a reaction to expensive Swiss watches and an attempt to open the market to less affluent.


More likely it was a reaction to more expensive American-made watches, and an attempt to get the middle- and lower-classes to see watches as affordable, and eventually, necessary.



macosie said:


> People still made the investment in an expensive Swiss watch when they could afford to.


When was this, and where? Before WWII, not even close to true. Railroad workers in the USA were typically issued watches manufactured by USA-based companies, like Hamilton, Elgin, and Waltham.

I live in Delaware County, Pennsylvania. My grandfather grew up south of here, in Eddystone, PA, home of Baldwin Engine Works, which co-advertised alongside Hamilton, of Lancaster, PA.

Trust me, this is all pretty well-documented history. Prior to WWII, the Swiss lagged the USA and UK in watchmaking, leapt ahead following WWII, then lagged the Japanese through all of the 1970's, until Nick Hayek saved their collective bacon in 1983, and they found God in advertising in the mid- to late '80's.



macosie said:


> The dollar watch should have had the same impact on the Swiss watch industry, but it didn't. Why?


I never heard of the dollar watch until you brought it up. I'm wondering if you saw some documentary about it recently. Its relevance, whatever that may have been, seems to have escaped my admittedly incomplete understanding of watchmaking history, as well as most other people's judging by how little people talk about it.

I mean people talk about it very little, not that people with dwarfism talk about it.



macosie said:


> Is this the same logic used when purchasing a Cadillac over a Chevy?


You asked that following your quote of me saying this:



docvail said:


> Simply looking at prices, and assuming they're all justified/rational is flawed logic, but many folks do just that, and it's understandable why they believe a more expensive Swiss movement MUST be better than a less-expense Japanese movement.


I'm not sure if I'm missing the meaning of your question or if you missed my point in all of this (I suspect a little of both), but...

I assume my grandfather bought Cadillacs because he appreciated the features they had which Chevies of the time didn't. Perhaps he grew up wanting one, and since he made a decent living, he indulged himself by buying Cadillacs. He didn't strike me as the kind of guy who wanted to impress other people, but maybe that played into it some, I can't say. Maybe he preferred their styling. I recall many Pontiacs shared sheet metal with Chevrolet models, but I don't remember many Cadillacs looking like re-badged Chevies.

Why do people buy Cadillacs today? I don't know. Ask the next guy you see driving a Cadillac. If I bought one, it'd be because I liked the styling, and because it's a better value than comparable cars from Germany, though probably not Japan.



macosie said:


> True, and the market agrees with them.


The market is 80% simpletons who don't realize it, 10% people who won't admit it, 9% people who have some sort of clue, and 1% people who are out of their minds.

If you let the market make all your decisions for you, you'd eat pizza for every meal, only listen to top 40, replace all your clothes every year, and buy Aflac insurance.



macosie said:


> The Swiss are known for precision equipment, and have been for a long time. The Japanese are gaining, but not their reputation.


The Swiss have invested billions of dollars over 35 years to convince people they're not second-best or worse at doing something they're actually second-best at, at most.

The Japanese have built their entire culture around achieving perfection in all things, going back to the beginning of their recorded history. They have a right way to pour tea.

The Swiss are amateurs by comparison.



macosie said:


> Not into lifestyle marketing? You have got to go to Japan.


You've misquoted me, so you're arguing something I never said. This is EXACTLY what I said:



docvail said:


> I try to remember the luxury pricing phenomenon was born from the quartz crisis, and further remember that was driven by Japan, which has always had a dramatically different approach to its treatment of "luxury", versus how it develops, prices and presents products.
> 
> Simply looking at prices, and assuming they're all justified/rational is flawed logic, but many folks do just that, and it's understandable why they believe a more expensive Swiss movement MUST be better than a less-expense Japanese movement.
> 
> ...


I didn't say the Japanese aren't into lifestyle marketing, I said it wasn't their stock in trade, bang-for-the-buck is.

Of course the Japanese UNDERSTAND luxury. In fact, I'd argue they understand it BETTER than most of the world. My point was that they don't pi$$ down our legs and tell us it's raining by trying to sell us "luxury goods" which really aren't, by force-feeding us a steady diet of lifestyle marketing to support inflated pricing.

When the Japanese put prices on things, they typically are pricing them lower than comparable products from Europe and elsewhere. They've been accused of price-dumping, in fact.

Do you know what that is? That's when everyone in the world looks at Japan and tells them they're not charging enough for what they're selling, and they're making the rest of us look bad.



macosie said:


> As for charging less, the market is still unwilling to pay a premium for most Japanese good, be it watches, cars, or electronics. There always seems to be a European company that can get more. Rich Japanese drive Benz and BMW and wear IWC and Rolex.


See my comments above about the "wisdom" of the market.

I'm sure rich Japanese include a certain percentage of over-spending, overly brand-conscious/status-obsessed d0uchebags, just like the rich in every other part of the world.

I never cared much about what rich people did with their money, unless they were giving it to me or using it to buy politicians. That's when I start paying attention.



macosie said:


> My completely biased opinion, formed by decades of lifestyle marketing and believing the market knows best, combined with a completely false history of things which never happened, is that Rolex is appropriately priced.


Fixed that for you.

Actually, a Rolex is absurdly priced, and even Rolex is realizing it, judging by their recent efforts to bring lower-priced sister brand Tudor back to a position of prominence.



macosie said:


> The market has spoken and it seems that many people are willing to pay a premium price for a Rolex, whether you and I think it's worth it or not.


The market is largely made up of idiots who are too willing to part with their money and not get enough in return. I don't think luxury brands are worth it, obviously. I sort of built my business around that core concept, and it's been working out so far.



macosie said:


> I think Rolex markets well and the have managed to survive as a private Swiss company, employing Swiss technicians.


Rappers include mentions of Rolex in their lyrics, so, yeah, Rolex has proven they are shrewd marketers. More power to them. I admire that aspect of their business more than some others.

Being a private company doesn't seem like an achievement one way or the other, but if it is, and I just haven't heard about it, okay, so be it.

When you say "Swiss" technicians, do you mean people of Swiss descent, or people who just happen to live in Switzerland? Or did you mean that Swiss tech is somehow different than tech in the rest of the world, and Rolex employs people who know how to work with that tech?

What if they employed an Asian immigrant, and the tech was actually borrowed or bought from some other country? Seems possible, in this global age we live in, no?



macosie said:


> I'd be intrigued to know just how much, or little, of its manufacturing is outsourced.


I'd be intrigued, too. I probably wouldn't care much, but I'd be intrigued to know. I assume very little of their manufacturing is outsourced.



macosie said:


> (I'd like to see the proof anyone decides to goes off on a 60% Swiss Made rant.)


That seems not so subtly directed at me.

Why is it every time I type more than two lines of text, it's a "rant"? C'mon. You don't hear my voice. It's in your head. Get over it, read a little more, and don't assume someone who takes the time to answer you thoroughly is "ranting".

The 60% "Swiss Made" rules are a joke, just not a very funny one, unfortunately. Aside from not being known for high-quality precision tools, the Swiss also aren't known for their sense of humor.

Capucho is funny as hell, but he's British by way of Portugal, and frequently drunk. He just lives in Switzerland, and the only time he laughs at a Swiss person is when he's used one to break his drunken fall from a commuter train.

They apparently don't think the rest of us are very intelligent though, or diligent. If they did, they'd have made those rules harder to find, harder to understand, and they'd have left them in French, rather than translating them into English for us, which, I have to say, was mighty cool of them.

That said, it appears they were at least partially right, at least about our diligence. I've been on this forum 5 years, and in all that time, I'm the only person I know who's actually read the rules, in their entirety, beginning to end, and bothered to actually do the 10th grade math necessary to figure out they're 100% full of $hlt if they want us to believe a "Swiss Made" watch is at least 60% made in Switzerland.

Oh, in case that wasn't subtly directed at me, here's my blog post about it all, thoroughly researched, documented, completely factual, and the math is done for you - "Swiss Made" - Janis Trading Company.



macosie said:


> But as it goes, it has to be worth it, or people wouldn't buy it, right?


People buy all sorts of stupid, over-priced crap. My one son has a number of "finger-boards" - these are tiny little skateboards kids do tricks with, using their fingers.

Don't even get me started on all the stupid, over-priced crap my wife has brought home. I could have bought a Rolex Daytona with the money she's pissed away.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

georgefl74 said:


> Citizen does b-) http://www.citizen.co.jp/files/AR2017.pdf


They'd be called out on it if they didn't acknowledge that smart watches are now a part of "competition", but that doesn't mean that smart watches are eating into watch sales.

Imagine a watch company publishing a stockholders report and not mentioning smart watches - at all.

Yeah, I can't imagine it either.

I get asked about smart watches all the time. I always say the same thing - "I sell an anachronistic, technologically obsolete product to a small segment of the market made up of hard-core enthusiasts who LIKE the product's anachronistic, technological obsolescence. These guys are into MECHANICAL watches. The world's smartest watch poses no more threat to me than it's smartest termite."

#logic.


----------



## georgefl74 (Jun 18, 2015)

docvail said:


> They'd be called out on it if they didn't acknowledge that smart watches are now a part of "competition", but that doesn't mean that smart watches are eating into watch sales.
> 
> Imagine a watch company publishing a stockholders report and not mentioning smart watches - at all.
> 
> ...


Never mentioned your business Doc. You should be doing fine and could even be better off if the 'disconnect' thing gains traction. However, firms that push out toolwatches that sync with Bluetooth, GPS and the like do face a problem. The smartwatch is taking the edge out of their storyline. It's just smarter than their smarter watch. That includes Citizen, Seiko, Casio and Timex. But I'm way out of topic, sorry about that. Just did my conspiracy routine on why Miyota gives away the 9015.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

Seriously, where do you get your 'facts'?

Ingersall sold 3.5 million dollar watches, mostly produced by the waterbury clock company. When Ingersoll folded, they were bought by Waterbury, who later would become Timex, one of the great American watch companies, which is now owned by the Dutch (You can google this.)

Bulova was an American company. They produced their normal watches in the US, and their luxury watches movements in Switzerland(since 1912). See their history on the bulova web site or at: http://www.mybulova.com/bulova-history

Hmmm 1912 is a few years before the war.

You quote Hodinkee and Bloomberg like they are the bible. Neither talk about quartz development before the Astron's commercial release in 1969. Google quartz watches and you will find:

The world's first prototype analog quartz.wristwatches.were revealed in 1967: the Beta 1 revealed by the Centre Electronique Horloger (CEH) in Neuchâtel Switzerland,[15][16].and the prototype of the.Astron.revealed by.Seiko.in Japan (Seiko had been working on quartz clocks since 1958)

Both 1967... So, I'm not wrong, you are.

Where have you read that Hayek saved Rolex? It's not and never has been the property of Swatch. Yes, he did turn around the fortune of the companies in the Swatch group. Yes, many other companies failed at the time. And yes, several companese survived without Hayek's direct help.

Where you get the idea that the Swiss copied horologie from the Americans is amazing. Please cite your sources. I can find reference to clockmaking in Switzerland in early 1700s.

Ferdinand Berthoud was born on March 18, 1727, in Plancemont, Val-de-Travers, in the Canton of Neuchâtel, Switzerland, into a distinguished family of watch and clock makers.

And for Swiss precision... Have you heard of CERN? And if you don't believe me or google, try the CIA world Factbook.

Basically your talking out of you @&&, spreading your own beliefs and prejudice as truth and calling it 'debunking myths.'

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*H4* by John Harrison, the first chronometer, was English (not Swiss or American)










https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitude_(book)

"John Harrison, an 18th-century clockmaker who created the first clock (chronometer) sufficiently accurate to be used to determine longitude at sea-an important development in navigation."


----------



## eroc (Jan 3, 2011)




----------



## sculldogg86 (Feb 14, 2017)

I've mainly lurked on here, and not really a lot. However, that epic post is the most interesting thing I have ever read on the subject of watches.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Ugh.
> 
> I didn't want to do this, but since you don't seem to want to let it go...
> 
> .


You've made me late for my appointment again Vail.........

Great read, great tear-down, I'll read again when I get home.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Fascinating stuff. With all the "you can look it up" flying around, I thought I'd just give Wikipedia a quick hit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_timekeeping_devices

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_watch

Credit there to the Chinese, Italians, French, English, and Catholic Monks. FWIW.

Rolex was founded in England, moved to Switzerland in 1919 due to English taxes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolex

EDIT:

One more addition, just for perspective. Watches are just jewelry. Nothing more. Anyone who needs to know the time for critical purposes, i.e. lives depend on it, doesn't use a mechanical watch. I had a similar discussion with a co-worker recently. When he insisted his Rolex kept great time, I asked him how often he checked it, and against what source. Atomic clock, on his phone, of course.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

And now for something completely different - a man with three....watches. :-!


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I apologize if I missed it or I forgot, does anyone know if the new blue scorpene is going to have the matte or sunburst blue dial?


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Prototype in hand... Er... On wrist!

























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

macosie said:


> Seriously, where do you get your 'facts'?
> 
> Ingersall sold 3.5 million dollar watches, mostly produced by the waterbury clock company. When Ingersoll folded, they were bought by Waterbury, who later would become Timex, one of the great American watch companies, which is now owned by the Dutch (You can google this.)


1. It's Ingersoll, with an "o".

2. Waterbury is in CT. Timex started as an American company.

3. I did Google it. You're right, they're now owned by the Dutch. I know they make the watches in China, and I was told by someone in the industry that they were Chinese-owned, or that was the inference I took away from the conversation, at least.

4. How a formerly American company, now owned by the Dutch, making watches in China, supports the idea of a long history of Swiss supremacy still eludes me.



macosie said:


> Bulova was an American company. They produced their normal watches in the US, and their luxury watches movements in Switzerland(since 1912). See their history on the bulova web site or at: Bulova History | myBulova.com
> 
> Hmmm 1912 is a few years before the war.


No, Bulova *IS* still an "American" company. Their headquarters are in NY. I put "American" in quotes because they're owned by Citizen since 2007, a company based in - wait for it - Japan. But the operations are still in the USA.

1912 is a few years before the war, it's also quite a few years shy of the "hundreds of years" you said the Swiss have been enjoying a reputation for excellence in high-precision gizmos and thingamajigs.

Bulova did establish a plant in Biel, Switzerland, in 1912, but it was a production plant, not an R&D facility. Swiss labor was cheaper back then. They basically made stuff which was developed in the USA. Joseph Bulova maintained his own offices and development operations in NY, including an observatory in Manhattan.

Apparently the USA was still the leader in innovation at that time, through the 1930's and 1940's, until - wait for it - WWII.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulova#History

An interesting side-note revealed by that Wiki page. Despite Bulova's claims regarding being first with the electric clock, it seems another company was actually first, Telechron.

Anyone want to guess where and when Telechron was founded? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone?

Massachusetts, in 1912. Apparently the Swiss were just funneling all their innovation through New England at the turn of the century.



macosie said:


> You quote Hodinkee and Bloomberg like they are the bible. Neither talk about quartz development before the Astron's commercial release in 1969. Google quartz watches and you will find:
> 
> The world's first prototype analog quartz.wristwatches.were revealed in 1967: the Beta 1 revealed by the Centre Electronique Horloger (CEH) in Neuchâtel Switzerland,[15][16].and the prototype of the.Astron.revealed by.Seiko.in Japan (Seiko had been working on quartz clocks since 1958)
> 
> Both 1967... So, I'm not wrong, you are.


I linked to the Bloomberg/Hodinkee article because it was a good article, which gathered together all the relevant history of the quartz crisis, which was what the article was about, and the very event I said led to rampant price-raising on the part of the Swiss, in order to demonstrate "luxury".

Did you happen to find anything in it that was erroneous? No? Then I'd say I quoted them like they're more reliable than the bible, inasmuch as some folks have a hard time believing some of its contents, what with talking bushes on fire and frogs falling from the sky.



macosie said:


> Where have you read that Hayek saved Rolex? It's not and never has been the property of Swatch. Yes, he did turn around the fortune of the companies in the Swatch group. Yes, many other companies failed at the time. And yes, several companese survived without Hayek's direct help.


I didn't read Hayek saved Rolex. I didn't say it either. I said the Swiss banks brought him in to save the industry (as well as the banks), after they lent half a billion dollars to failing Swiss companies.

Was that not true? Does the fact that those Swiss companies needed half a billion dollars in emergency funding, and that they were in danger of failing anyway not shed some doubt over the narrative that the Swiss have been enjoying good times in horology for hundreds of years?

Hayek didn't need to save every company directly. Are you familiar with the concept of contagion, as it relates to the collapse of financial systems?

If Hayek hadn't been able to rescue the companies he did, they would have defaulted on their loans, that would have set off a chain reaction within the Swiss banking system, likely causing a panic, a cratering in their currency, and economic upheaval, which certainly would have had an impact on all the companies he wasn't directly touching.

Maybe instead of being known for highly-accurate precision thingamabobs, they should have been known for precise financial forecasting?

Have you read up on what's going on inside many Swiss luxury brands right now? Massive layoffs, consecutive quarters of net losses, and emergency infusions of cash from - wait for it - Asia.

Why is it that the Swiss are so awesome at making a super-duper product, one people are willing to over-pay to get, yet they're always in need of a rescue, in the form of emergency funding, whereas the Asians always seem to be chugging right along, swimming in cash, never feeling compelled to spend billions on advertising to let us know how awesome they are?

The Swatch Group didn't own a bunch of brands until LATER, following Nick's work to separate the production side of the industry from the brands' design, sales and marketing operations, giving way to the need for a "Swiss Made" rule that tries to compensate for the fact that many of the brands appearing on the watches don't actually MAKE the watches anymore, so where they're made and by who is shrouded in mystery.

Those percentage of value calculations wouldn't be necessary if the Swiss brands were all vertically integrated the way they used to be, prior to the quartz crisis.



macosie said:


> Where you get the idea that the Swiss copied horologie from the Americans is amazing. Please cite your sources. I can find reference to clockmaking in Switzerland in early 1700s.
> 
> Ferdinand Berthoud was born on March 18, 1727, in Plancemont, Val-de-Travers, in the Canton of Neuchâtel, Switzerland, into a distinguished family of watch and clock makers.


Yes. History is amazing. It's amazing how people can isolate in on certain "facts", ignore all others, and fabricate a false narrative to support a warped world view.



macosie said:


> And for Swiss precision... Have you heard of CERN? And if you don't believe me or google, try the CIA world Factbook.
> 
> Basically your talking out of you @&&, spreading your own beliefs and prejudice as truth and calling it 'debunking myths.'


Okay. You win. I didn't expect you to pull out the nuclear option of "CERN", the European Organization for Nuclear Research. I didn't realize it was entirely staffed by Swiss watchmakers. Mic drop. Everyone go home.

I'll be over here in the USA, talking out muh a$$ with the non-geniuses at NASA, Google, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, MIT, NSA, Tesla...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



georgefl74 said:


> Never mentioned your business Doc. You should be doing fine and could even be better off if the 'disconnect' thing gains traction. However, firms that push out toolwatches that sync with Bluetooth, GPS and the like do face a problem. The smartwatch is taking the edge out of their storyline. It's just smarter than their smarter watch. That includes Citizen, Seiko, Casio and Timex. But I'm way out of topic, sorry about that. Just did my conspiracy routine on why Miyota gives away the 9015.


Understood. You said Citizen was under "huge pressure" from all the new toys, specifically mentioning fitbits and smart watches. I said I didn't think smart watches were eating into watch sales (I was thinking about mechanical watches). You said Citizen does, and linked to their stockholders report, including a quote. I found the section with the quote you cited, under the heading of "competition".

I didn't see anything there to indicate Citizen feels "huge pressure" from said new toys. I don't believe Citizen feels such pressure on sales (at least not on mechanical watch sales), but I do believe it would be an eyebrow-raising oversight if they didn't at least mention the existence of smart watches in their report, under that heading, given the amount of attention being paid to smart watches recently.

I have seen some in the industry and some analysts suggest that smart watches are hurting luxury brands, though. And I'm skeptical.

The luxury brands were hurting well before smart watches became a new fad, which is what I think they are. Perhaps they're hurting sales to the extent that some portion of the early-adopter market overlaps with the upwardly mobile demographic who normally over-spends on luxury goods, but I don't think that fully explains what's going on.

My point was anecdotal. I do get asked about smart watches, within the context of their impact on the industry. And my response is a way of demonstrating why I believe their impact is minimal. I'm speaking for ALL *mechanical* watch manufacturers when I say the people who buy mechanical watches don't want a smart watch. The market for those two products is a Venn diagram with no overlap.

All that said, I did come at it all with my view narrowly focused on mechanical watches, not really thinking about the various high-function quartz pieces, many of which are made by Citizen and the other big Japanese brands. I can imagine that there is pressure on those model lines, perhaps not directly from the Apple watch, but from Garmin and the like, the smart/fitness watches with a sports orientation.

I'm reminded of the discussion I had with the guys on the Hour Time podcast. I was told that the Tag Heuer smart watch had been their best selling model the year prior, which was surprising to me.

My interpretation is that Tag is in even worse shape than they appear, if a product from outside their core competency is outselling the product on which they built their reputation. If they're cannibalizing their own sales of a long-term product with something more transient, that would be worrisome for me as a shareholder.

So, let me amend or clarify my earlier response by saying I don't see smart watches having an overall negative impact on mechanical watches as a segment, in the long term, but certainly I can see how they may not bode well for some companies in the short term.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I apologize if I missed it or I forgot, does anyone know if the new blue scorpene is going to have the matte or sunburst blue dial?


Pic









Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Pic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gif


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That's a really sharp looking watch. Ahh like it. Ahh like it alott!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Using "your" both incorrectly and correctly in the same sentence doesn't typically helps one's case... just sayin'.


----------



## macosie (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

It's not worth the time and effort arguing with you but I'll do it just for the fun of it.

1. The point of timex was lost to you, but it proved you know sh#t about watch history. How much of what you spread is crap you've heard from someone else?

1.1 By the way, the disappearance of Timex as an American watch manufacturer puts a screw in your America gave up on watch making because of the war theory. (Oh wait, see point 1)

1.2 America lost the quartz crisis too. You did it by betting on LED instead of LCD. (That's in your precious article too.)

2. You are trying to twist history to fit your needs too. Taking my 1912 reference to prove Switzerland doesn't have hundreds of years of watch and clockmaking history and completely ignore a Swiss clockmaker from the 1700s. Btw, the point of using Berthoud was to date Swiss watch making back to the 1700s. Yes, he did go to France and Uk to improve his knowledge, not the USA... Which didn't exist then. Also, I've never claimed that the Swiss invented clock/watch making. They just got really good at it. Your statement that the Swiss learned watchmaking from America is utter BS. ( Are you going to claim the same for the Japanese, since the US rebuild them after bombing the hell out of them during the war? )

3. Sure CERN has people from around the world working there. So do NASA, Google, etc... (Note... It took Americanising a German war criminal to get your space program working.)

3.1. Your economy is propped up by the Chinese too. What was the point of bringing that up anyway?

4. You rip off, I mean pay homage to, Swiss designs to 'design' your own watches. Your parts are sourced from China, Japan, and (wait for it) Switzerland. You use cheap Chinese labour to make them. You bad mouth the Swiss who are responsible for the watches that made most of the microbrand watch industry possible. (Also, didn't you say if you were to produce an 'American' movement you'd use a Swiss design? That's showing the American spirit(sic).)

I bought 5 of your watches. I liked the designs and I also your posts, but that opinion has changed.

Good luck to you.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Everett464 (Nov 27, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



macosie said:


> It's not worth the time and effort arguing with you but I'll do it just for the fun of it.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



macosie said:


> I bought 5 of your watches. I liked the designs and I also your posts, but that opinion has changed.
> 
> Good luck to you.


You probably want to get rid of those and profiting from it would be tacky...just send them my way and I dispose of them


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Giddyup...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Giddyup...


So awesome. Such a distinctively interesting design.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> So awesome. Such a distinctively interesting design.


Cheers, mate!

I ripped it off from the Swiss!!!

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## georgefl74 (Jun 18, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



macosie said:


> I bought 5 of your watches.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Giddyup...
> 
> View attachment 13050391
> 
> ...


Huh. That looks better than i had expected from the renders.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

> Okay. You win. I didn't expect you to pull out the nuclear option of "CERN", the European Organization for Nuclear Research. I didn't realize it was entirely staffed by Swiss watchmakers. Mic drop. Everyone go home.
> 
> I'll be over here in the USA, talking out muh a$$ with the non-geniuses at NASA, Google, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, MIT, NSA, Tesla...











Sorry, I normally don't weigh in on internet forum pillow fights, but this was just too good to pass on. Also, you forgot SpaceX.

Muhrica.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Gee, it would be nice if we could have had this swiss-watchmaking-legacy-or-sham debate without going to this jingo-istic "murica vs SWISS" black-and-white faceoff. Kinda odd to see how those two got somehow pidgeonholed as the only options, and somehow japanese/english/etc achievements are just used to move the pointer from US to Switzerland and back.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



macosie said:


> [Spoiled man-child rant snipped]


Ah, the final swing of the butthurt "doc doesn't agree with me!" crying fit. "I won't buy your watches anymore!"

Sold-out-NTH-watches say: "Meh."

You lost your cool, dude. "Just for the fun of it"? Yeah, no. You took a pointless debate about history with no individual ramifications to either yourself or doc and turned it into a personal disagreement founded on "being right," made accusations about character and business practices, and threw in some odd tribalism to boot. And iced it with the spoiled WUS equivalent of "I'm taking my ball and going home!"

*Slow-clap*


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JakeJD said:


> Ah, the final swing of the butthurt "doc doesn't agree with me!" crying fit. "I won't buy your watches anymore!"
> 
> Sold-out-NTH-watches say: "Meh."
> 
> ...


Well assessed, put me down for a "no-clap"..........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Would it be cruel of me to point out there would be no 'Swiss' watch industry were it not for the Germans, Dutch, French and of course religious persecution in the 16th Century. Their watchmakers moved to the mountains while the locals were still shooting apples off kids' heads with crossbows, churning out mercenary pikemen and making cheese.

The 'Swiss' watch-making industry was never particularly Swiss.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Would it be cruel of me to point out there would be no 'Swiss' watch industry were it not for the Germans, Dutch, French and of course religious persecution in the 16th Century. Their watchmakers moved to the mountains while the locals were still shooting apples off kids' heads with crossbows, churning out mercenary pikemen and making cheese.
> 
> The 'Swiss' watch-making industry was never particularly Swiss.


Pikemen - those were some sort of fish-man hybrid mermen, like the acquatic version of a minotaur, or something else?

Just say mermen mercenaries next time. We'll know what you mean.

They sound dreadful.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just because.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

docvail said:


> Giddyup...
> 
> View attachment 13050391
> 
> ...


The render is spot on but "In the flesh" with the lighting showing the different surfaces and dial texture, well done Doc.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> Well assessed, put me down for a "no-clap"..........
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


In the words of Russell Crowe, "Are you not entertained?"
Standing ovation from me! I haven't seen a verbal sparring of this calibre in yonks!
Thanks to both participants for the effort and entertainment, and thanks Doc for a few fantastically quotable quips. I thought the burning bush burn was legendary AND ironic.

I'm surprised no-one got in on the famed greatness of the Swiss rail network which proves that they are much better at timing than the Japanese. 
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-42009839


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> They'd be called out on it if they didn't acknowledge that smart watches are now a part of "competition", but that doesn't mean that smart watches are eating into watch sales.
> 
> Imagine a watch company publishing a stockholders report and not mentioning smart watches - at all.
> 
> ...


In case you missed it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Giddyup...
> 
> View attachment 13050391
> 
> ...


Objectively speaking, this watch has no business looking as good as it does. And yet, here we are. That's sick.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Cosmodromedary said:


> In the words of Russell Crowe, "Are you not entertained?"
> Standing ovation from me! I haven't seen a verbal sparring of this calibre in yonks!
> Thanks to both participants for the effort and entertainment, and thanks Doc for a few fantastically quotable quips. I thought the burning bush burn was legendary AND ironic.
> 
> ...


Hmm, my post was a continuum of JakeJD's final slap-down of one of the protagonists cry-off and departure from the ring with an attendant and well deserved slow-clap, I thought that a no-clap was the more deserved denouement.

As for entertainment, this was nose-glued-to-laptop time and if you look back further up-thread, you will see that I posted a moan at the Doc for making me late.....again!!

Really looking forward to the next bout.......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

docvail said:


> Just say mermen mercenaries next time.


Christopher, Switzerland is land-locked, and Lac Leman is not known for exotic aquatic hybrids. Unless you are referring to the legendary Bassmen, who dwell in remote mountain lakes near St. Mortiz and play in the local oompah bands.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Yep that Nazario thingamajig turned out great :-!


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> Giddyup...
> 
> View attachment 13050391


Great looking watch Doc.

For me - I just wish it had snowflake hands, vintage lume, root beer coloured sunburst dial, root beer PVD bezel and had "Barracuda" in place of "Nazario"

#BarracudaSearchContinues

*EDIT: *This is subject to Doc not offending me. If he does, then I may have to kick, scream and whinge about Doc and his beliefs... like has already been done on this forum by a particularly angry elf. Might even have to throw out my existing L&H / NTH watches too. That'll teach him :-d :-d :-d


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Just seems relevant to many parts of this thread going back months to years - https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=45772385

Tl;dr - a mess up results in Seiss Made being on the dial of a Japanese movement watch, but is still ok because of the value of Swiss parts vs others.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Example of a extant Swiss mercenaries... wot guard the Pope even to this day.

The uniform used to be quite the thing a few centuries ago, but for some reason fashions have changed and the local Roman girls are now unconvinced.

To whit: yer can either be a Swiss Guard, or you can get laid; choose one.

True story: me dear old father in law used to be a BIG MAN in the Swiss military. This candy coloured bunch used to report to a bloke wot reported to a bloke who reported to a bloke wot reported to me dad in law.

Second true story: an old mate of mine wot's fallen out of touch over the years used to be one of these Swiss guards at the Vatican. He didn't get laid once during his two year stint. Told him that if he'd tried amongst the vatican's more typical residents (them that're dressed in black and purple) he could have been laid three times a night.

He tried to laugh, I give him that.

Funny old world, innit.

Ric


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Christopher, Switzerland is land-locked, and Lac Leman is not known for exotic aquatic hybrids. Unless you are referring to the legendary Bassmen, who dwell in remote mountain lakes near St. Mortiz and play in the local oompah bands.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Giddyup...
> 
> View attachment 13050391
> 
> ...


Holly crap that looks sweet.
That means you prolly have my Näcken too


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> Example of a extant Swiss mercenaries... wot guard the Pope even to this day.
> 
> The uniform used to be quite the thing a few centuries ago, but for some reason fashions have changed and the local Roman girls are now unconvinced.
> 
> ...


You win.....


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> ...without going to this jingo-istic "murica vs SWISS" black-and-white faceoff.


Sorry, can't hear you, we're playing golf on the moon.


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

I really like the look of the Azores and Antilles. Does anybody know a reliable source in the EU?


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Lest we forget some of the excellent L&H designs, here is my gorgeous Cerberus!!!! So glad I have this one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Root beer floatin'


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nuru said:


> I really like the look of the Azores and Antilles. Does anybody know a reliable source in the EU?


Why not just buy from our website? We just got a few pieces in. It doesn't cost you any more.


----------



## Amuthini (Sep 15, 2011)

Ric Capucho said:


> Example of a extant Swiss mercenaries... wot guard the Pope even to this day.
> 
> The uniform used to be quite the thing a few centuries ago, but for some reason fashions have changed and the local Roman girls are now unconvinced.
> 
> ...


I got a headache trying to read this..... is this like the british version of ebonics?


----------



## Trango (Mar 1, 2014)

I went through the last dozen pages or so, but is there any news or teasers on what Doc will be up to after the DevilRay? I saw mention of another batch of subs (I've been wearing my vintage black every day). Because I know my vote matters so much, I'd love to see a modestly sized reverse panda chrono that throws back to the Carreras and Hamilton with a 7736. Something in the 38mm-40mm range and no more than 12mm thick would be amazing. I'd imagine it would be tough to get a lot of water resistance, but I'd happily trade that for a more reasonable profile. The market is saturated with 42mmx13-16mm chronos.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

3rd time round. 1/25. 10 days, hopefully.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Amuthini said:


> I got a headache trying to read this..... is this like the british version of ebonics?


Nope. Just a hard luck noob feeling pressed. Ric is royalty; try to measure up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Trango said:


> I went through the last dozen pages or so, but is there any news or teasers on what Doc will be up to after the DevilRay? I saw mention of another batch of subs (I've been wearing my vintage black every day). Because I know my vote matters so much, I'd love to see a modestly sized reverse panda chrono that throws back to the Carreras and Hamilton with a 7736. Something in the 38mm-40mm range and no more than 12mm thick would be amazing. I'd imagine it would be tough to get a lot of water resistance, but I'd happily trade that for a more reasonable profile. The market is saturated with 42mmx13-16mm chronos.


Find 299 friends, send chris a blank check, and check your front porch in 9 months.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Amuthini said:


> I got a headache trying to read this..... is this like the british version of ebonics?


Nope, American English is the British version of Ebonics.

Ric


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Why not just buy from our website? We just got a few pieces in. It doesn't cost you any more.


You might or might not know this, but when you select the "In Stock" menu on your site, nothing shows. You actually have to navigate to the individual watch to see if it's available or not. Just an FYI.

For everyone's awareness, as of the time that I last edited this, there are one each of the champagne, black and white Antilles, and an unspecified number of no-date vanilla Azores.

Was hoping for a mint Azores. Blah.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Ric Capucho said:


> Nope, American English is the British version of Ebonics.
> 
> Ric


Amen


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

HAHAH Awesome eh! Now what do us hosers speak.



LordBrettSinclair said:


> Amen
> 
> View attachment 13054745


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Ojibway Bob said:


> HAHAH Awesome eh! Now what do us hosers speak.


French?

Side note: Caught that "Strange Brew" reference. I like what you did there.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> You might or might not know this, but when you select the "In Stock" menu on your site, nothing shows. You actually have to navigate to the individual watch to see if it's available or not. Just an FYI.
> 
> For everyone's awareness, as of the time that I last edited this, there are one each of the champagne, black and white Antilles, and an unspecified number of no-date vanilla Azores.
> 
> Was hoping for a mint Azores. Blah.


Thanks for the heads up. I've been busy the last few weeks, and keeping the website up to date hasn't been my top priority.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Used Azores for sale on the Finn.no website in Norway (not mine). Just a heads up in case there are still vikings around that hasn't been able to acquire a NTH (the best tool to determine longitude when traveling by viking ships)


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

docvail said:


> Why not just buy from our website? We just got a few pieces in. It doesn't cost you any more.


Thanks for your reply. I would guess that the final price would be comparable, but getting such relatively high value items from outside the EU will incur tax and possibly customs charges. And even though the resulting price might still be equal (or less), I somehow prefer knowing exactly how much it will cost me when I click "Buy now".

The other issue is that most delivery services here will either deliver to your shipping address or require you to pick it up at their logistics hub so you can pay the customs duties, taxes and their fee. The logistics hubs are located at rather inconvenient locations and don't always have opening hours compatible with working full time. If your work place does not allow accepting deliveries at work, you're in a pickle.

Long story short: As soon as there is duties/tax to be paid, delivery becomes a bit of a hassle.



Coriolanus said:


> Was hoping for a mint Azores. Blah.


That would have been my preference too.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nuru said:


> Thanks for your reply. I would guess that the final price would be comparable, but getting such relatively high value items from outside the EU will incur tax and possibly customs charges. And even though the resulting price might still be equal (or less), I somehow prefer knowing exactly how much it will cost me when I click "Buy now".
> 
> The other issue is that most delivery services here will either deliver to your shipping address or require you to pick it up at their logistics hub so you can pay the customs duties, taxes and their fee. The logistics hubs are located at rather inconvenient locations and don't always have opening hours compatible with working full time. If your work place does not allow accepting deliveries at work, you're in a pickle.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. Sorry no Mint Azores left.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

Phantom Friday!









Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


----------



## georgefl74 (Jun 18, 2015)

nuru said:


> Thanks for your reply. I would guess that the final price would be comparable, but getting such relatively high value items from outside the EU will incur tax and possibly customs charges. And even though the resulting price might still be equal (or less), I somehow prefer knowing exactly how much it will cost me when I click "Buy now".
> 
> The other issue is that most delivery services here will either deliver to your shipping address or require you to pick it up at their logistics hub so you can pay the customs duties, taxes and their fee. The logistics hubs are located at rather inconvenient locations and don't always have opening hours compatible with working full time. If your work place does not allow accepting deliveries at work, you're in a pickle.
> 
> ...


Basically you're paying local VAT plus fees varying from relatively cheap for USPS and more expensive for DHL/FEDEX/UPS. Where I live getting something via FedEx or UPS equals to paying through the nose for handling. Best shipping service is always USPS Priority or DHL if the weight is more than a couple of pounds.

But there are ways around this, you can have an item from the States shipped to a local service offering a virtual address box. They'll repack and declare for customs the value you tell them. Look up 'Shipito'.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Santa Fe soaking up the lunchtime sun in the break room.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nuru said:


> Thanks for your reply. I would guess that the final price would be comparable, but getting such relatively high value items from outside the EU will incur tax and possibly customs charges. And even though the resulting price might still be equal (or less), I somehow prefer knowing exactly how much it will cost me when I click "Buy now".
> 
> The other issue is that most delivery services here will either deliver to your shipping address or require you to pick it up at their logistics hub so you can pay the customs duties, taxes and their fee. The logistics hubs are located at rather inconvenient locations and don't always have opening hours compatible with working full time. If your work place does not allow accepting deliveries at work, you're in a pickle.
> 
> ...





georgefl74 said:


> Basically you're paying local VAT plus fees varying from relatively cheap for USPS and more expensive for DHL/FEDEX/UPS. Where I live getting something via FedEx or UPS equals to paying through the nose for handling. Best shipping service is always USPS Priority or DHL if the weight is more than a couple of pounds.
> 
> But there are ways around this, you can have an item from the States shipped to a local service offering a virtual address box. They'll repack and declare for customs the value you tell them. Look up 'Shipito'.


This is well-trod territory for me, and when I entertain the discussion, I try not to sound argumentative, especially as some of the folks who've raised the issue seem incapable of understanding logic and math (not in any way meant to imply anything about anyone here, or quoted).

I am very familiar with the ~20% VAT applied to goods purchased in the EU/UK. I am also keenly aware that when those folks buy something from the USA, it often feels to them as if the purchase will cost them "extra" when they get that VAT bill.

It's not necessarily so, nor entirely correct, but I try not to sound dismissive when responding, especially as I also try to convey what steps my business has taken and still takes to address the issue.

First, it's helpful to explain that here in the USA, when we pay sales tax, the tax is not usually included in the stated price. Here in PA, our sales tax is 6%, so anything marked as $500 is going to cost me $530, whether I realize it or not. I'll find out at the register if I don't.

I start there because I'm aware that VAT is built into stated prices in the UK/EU, so if the VAT is 20% on a $500 watch, you'll simply see the prices as $600, and understand 1/6 of that is the VAT, whereas you may or may not intuitively understand that the $500 stated price on a USA-based website does NOT include that tax.

Many people don't seem to get this, nor do many seem to understand that mathematically, a $500 price with a guaranteed 20% tax bill is the same as a $600 price.

That said, I also understand that in addition to VAT on the price, you'll also pay VAT on the shipping cost, which could be higher if you're buying from the USA, especially as our international shipping rates seem higher than what folks pay in other parts of the world, and you could also get whacked with an obnoxious processing fee from FedEx or the like.

So, here's how I've addressed the issue:

1. I encourage folks to pre-order at prices discounted from regular retail prices. If nothing else, you'll save yourself the amount of the discount, plus of course the 20% VAT on that amount.

2. Because we have pre-orders, and many of our customers buy that way, and because we outsource order fulfillment, we set up products and product info within our warehouse/shipping partners' systems with values based on pre-order prices, the lowest of them, not the full retail price. So, if something sold for $450 in pre-order, but it's $600 now, your customs declaration will show the value as $450, not $600, saving the 20% VAT on the difference.

3. We ship with the US mail, which will coordinate with some other courier in the destination country for final delivery. My understanding from several customers is that this method seems to be least likely to attract the attention of customs officials, and in many cases it may help escape import taxes entirely. If nothing else, this method is the absolute lowest cost alternative among all shipping options, so, again, I'm doing what I can to save you money.

4. I'm working on establishing relationships with resellers outside the USA. As you may imagine, it's difficult for a small startup to attract the interest of established resellers, who may not want to take a chance on an unproven brand, or a brand with an owner somewhat known for getting into online arguments with folks. What all you folks outside the USA can do to speed things along is, next time you're in contact with some multi-brand reseller you like, ask them if they've heard of Janis Trading/NTH/L&H, and suggest they should consider carrying our wares.

Hypothetically, if my watch has a $500 retail price, you'd pay $600 for it if I was in the UK/EU, plus perhaps $15 shipping. If you buy it from my site for $500, plus, let's say $35 shipping, you're at $535 so far. If we mark the customs value as $350, and you get a bill for 20% VAT on both the $350 and the $35 shipping, plus a $15 fee thrown on top, you're all-in for $627, so it cost you $12 more to order from my store, but you had the benefit of there being a chance you wouldn't get any tax bill at all, in which case, you'd have saved money, a good bit of it.

If you had actually pre-ordered it, you'd have saved even more.

All that said, I do certainly understand the sentiment about preferring to know how you'll be screwed over not knowing whether or not you'll be screwed, and if so, by how much. That sentiment is precisely what led me to using flat rate shipping, rather than implementing a more complex scheme involving weight/distance calculations done at checkout. And, as I said, I am always working to establish good relationships with solid resellers outside the USA.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

This here is great to know. I was thinking about this the other day after seeing how much the Devil Ray is worth now on the website. I started to some math in my head but thought about asking what the declaration of value would be. Thanks for the explanation.



docvail said:


> 2. Because we have pre-orders, and many of our customers buy that way, and because we outsource order fulfillment, we set up products and product info within our warehouse/shipping partners' systems with values based on pre-order prices, the lowest of them, not the full retail price. So, if something sold for $450 in pre-order, but it's $600 now, your customs declaration will show the value as $450, not $600, saving the 20% VAT on the difference.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

VAT this... .........









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Mil6161 said:


> VAT this... .........
> 
> 
> 
> ...











..and the reference, since apparently I'm old:


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)




----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

rpm1974 said:


> Santa Fe soaking up the lunchtime sun in the break room.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That bracelet looks like a good fit. A third party made, or a stock seiko jubilee? Smth with solid enlinks?


----------



## nemorior (Jan 1, 2017)

Still love my vanilla Azores. You all should get one while you have the chance. 








Regarding the shipping discussion (I live in Europe) my main problem is similar to nuru's in that the custom offices here in Germany are located in annoying locations and have opening hours that are not at all compatible with working hours (essentially that means having to take a half day off to pick up stuff from them). I don't order stuff from outside Europe often enough to know how often I get around paying VAT - so far it hasn't happened to me. 
But...it's not doc's responsibility to fix the system and customs offices' opening hours and he does what he can to make it as easy for us as possible. And I certainly appreciated the value as being marked as the lowest pre-order price. 
So bottom line: it's still annoying ordering stuff from outside Europe (for me) but it's certainly not doc who's causing the issues (if anything it's the opposite).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nemorior said:


> Still love my vanilla Azores. You all should get one while you have the chance.
> 
> Regarding the shipping discussion (I live in Europe) my main problem is similar to nuru's in that the custom offices here in Germany are located in annoying locations and have opening hours that are not at all compatible with working hours (essentially that means having to take a half day off to pick up stuff from them). I don't order stuff from outside Europe often enough to know how often I get around paying VAT - so far it hasn't happened to me.
> But...it's not doc's responsibility to fix the system and customs offices' opening hours and he does what he can to make it as easy for us as possible. And I certainly appreciated the value as being marked as the lowest pre-order price.
> So bottom line: it's still annoying ordering stuff from outside Europe (for me) but it's certainly not doc who's causing the issues (if anything it's the opposite).


I appreciate that. I became aware of the issue with German customs within the last couple years, and was surprised to hear they are making people go to customs offices to sign for shipments. It's ridiculous, and there was one customer who was also so unaware that he blamed me for the inconvenience.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> That bracelet looks like a good fit. A third party made, or a stock seiko jubilee? Smth with solid enlinks?


I actually bought it from Amazon for a whopping $8 a while back, just to test the look. It fits so nicely that I haven't looked for a "better" replacement. The endlinks are folded even.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

rpm1974 said:


> ...from Amazon ... $8 ... endlinks are folded ...


omg.


----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

docvail said:


> This is well-trod territory for me, and when I entertain the discussion, I try not to sound argumentative, especially as some of the folks who've raised the issue seem incapable of understanding logic and math (not in any way meant to imply anything about anyone here, or quoted).
> 
> I am very familiar with the ~20% VAT applied to goods purchased in the EU/UK. I am also keenly aware that when those folks buy something from the USA, it often feels to them as if the purchase will cost them "extra" when they get that VAT bill.
> 
> ...


If you want to address this issue even further, try to work out a breakbulk deal for the main custom zones (and Switzerland, please!). That way your clients would only have to shell out for the VAT and not for the customs processing fees, which is as fair as it gets, IMHO.








I am a bit of an expert in online shopping.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

No Brad, Devil Ray says that he wants to stay with me, he knows that life with me will be be total party-on and off-the-wall, he did tell me this Brad, 'struth......

Devil Ray working that voodoo on me at London GTG:









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Just got the update on the Devil Ray. It ships next week. I can hardly wait. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kirkryanm (Jan 5, 2016)

hawkeye86 said:


> Just got the update on the Devil Ray. It ships next week. I can hardly wait.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Or next month?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Devil Ray. Hmmm... Sounds mildly familiar...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kirkryanm said:


> Or next month?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Depends on which email you got...

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## kirkryanm (Jan 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Depends on which email you got...
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Makes sense - I guess it's obvious we got different emails.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

I just got to post a little review about the Antilles; let me know your thoughts guys









Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Subs are back in stock for anyone interested. http://www.janistrading.com/in-stock/?mc_cid=cdca0a1733&mc_eid=5e916c5e8a

Received an email today


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)




----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Subs are back in stock for anyone interested. http://www.janistrading.com/in-stock/?mc_cid=cdca0a1733&mc_eid=5e916c5e8a
> 
> Received an email today


Thanks! Been waiting on one of those black no date Nackens.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

I think I may have just set a world record for the quickest time between opening an email (from Doc saying some NTHs back in stock) and clicking on the embedded link.

Unfortunately no Barracuda's here.

My precious is out there somewhere. Looking forward to receiving my blue DevilRay to distract me from the sub.


----------



## I_am_Ned (Dec 21, 2017)

I was able to order a Blue Vintage Nacken, a watch I’ve been looking for off and on for a while. Got my fingers crossed that I wasn’t dreaming that it showed 2 remaining, and then 1 after I ordered.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Thanks and congrats (?) to all who ordered.

It was a good day, with about 20 watches sold. 

It beats a stick in the eye.


----------



## I_am_Ned (Dec 21, 2017)

docvail said:


> Thanks and congrats (?) to all who ordered.
> 
> It was a good day, with about 20 watches sold.
> 
> It beats a stick in the eye.


Thanks for making some available. I've been checking your site daily just in case a Nacken showed up. It was after I ordered I saw the notification on facebook and in my email. So...sorta backwards.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Wow, some of those went quick!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Daaaaamn this is the worst timing! xD

Bought a used sub less than a week ago (literally still on the way), and all other funds are very much tied up (and will be until end of the week at the least). Would've loved to pick up a Näcken, especially a fresh new one.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Thanks and congrats (?) to all who ordered.
> 
> It was a good day, with about 20 watches sold.
> 
> It beats a stick in the eye.


I was one of those 20 ?
Thanks, doc


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Daaaaamn this is the worst timing! xD
> 
> Bought a used sub less than a week ago (literally still on the way), and all other funds are very much tied up (and will be until end of the week at the least). Would've loved to pick up a Näcken, especially a fresh new one.


We'll have more available within the next few months.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh, the last five days have been nothing but QC, shipping, and filing my taxes, punctuated with bad weather, and take-out food.

Anyhoo, if you ordered a strap or watch from me in the last 24 hours, I think it shipped. If not, tomorrow, definitely.

If you ordered a Turquoise or Orange DevilRay last October, it should ship within the next 24-48 hours. 

If you wanted leftover pizza or wings, sorry, but I ate all the leftovers. You snooze, you lose.


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> If you ordered a Turquoise or Orange DevilRay last October, it should ship within the next 24-48 hours.


Zang

b-)


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Excellent! Good to hear!


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Ugh, the last five days have been nothing but QC, shipping, and filing my taxes, punctuated with bad weather, and take-out food.
> 
> Anyhoo, if you ordered a strap or watch from me in the last 24 hours, I think it shipped. If not, tomorrow, definitely.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Doc! It was a plesant surprise getting a shipping notice so soon with all that's going on. Thank you!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Ha....
Great news
Can't wait to get my turquoise DR on my wrist!

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Ugh, the last five days have been nothing but QC, shipping, and filing my taxes, punctuated with bad weather, and take-out food.
> 
> Anyhoo, if you ordered a strap or watch from me in the last 24 hours, I think it shipped. If not, tomorrow, definitely.
> 
> ...


Post horribly cold driving rain and flash flood hype.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Today is a pretty good day. The Santa Fe arrived, and the curved endlinks for a watchgecko beads-of-rice bracelet also arrived. And, of course, I had the put it all together asap. It actually kinda fits (the endlinks are just basic folded steel, but they seem to fill in the gap pretty well, albeit while sitting "lower" than the lug tops. For now, I'm okay with this look, because the curve of the endlink top and the lug top is very similar, just at different elevation. (Note.. I don't remember if this is their "standard 20mm" endlink, or their "for rolex 20mm" endlink. I got both, and one pair was way oversized. Idk which was which.)

























All in all.. memories proved true, the subs are great watches. Imo the polishing is not *as* sharp as seiko's zaratsu, but it's better than.. well, seiko's "non-zaratsu".

But. The bezel feel, hoo boy. Excellent. And somehow this bezel insert (on santa fe) seems a lot less, er.. "shiny", compared to the bezel insert on Santa Cruz / Amphion VB. This one feels and looks almost like a different kind of paint. Very deep, rich black. And the dial is just cool. The bumpy texture = win. (Hmm.. could use the same/similar method to produce "paper" and "papyrus" dials, no?)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Today is a pretty good day. The Santa Fe arrived, and the curved endlinks for a watchgecko beads-of-rice bracelet also arrived. And, of course, I had the put it all together asap. It actually kinda fits (the endlinks are just basic folded steel, but they seem to fill in the gap pretty well, albeit while sitting "lower" than the lug tops. For now, I'm okay with this look, because the curve of the endlink top and the lug top is very similar, just at different elevation. (Note.. I don't remember if this is their "standard 20mm" endlink, or their "for rolex 20mm" endlink. I got both, and one pair was way oversized. Idk which was which.)
> 
> View attachment 13067085
> 
> ...


I don't mind a recessed end link surface. It works for Roooollllexxxx, so it can't be a capital crime. The BOR works surprisingly well.

The difference in bezel appearance could be black DLC vs blue PVD.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

The SF is close but far from the SC. SC to me was too flashy with applied indices and bright blue and fancy dial texture, whereas printed dial of SF and sandpaper texture and monochromatic look is just better for me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yep. Granted, it's only the first day, but the bor+SF combination works really well. Probably would go really well with other subs too.


----------



## dpage (Dec 24, 2010)

Turquoise tracking received!!


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

dpage said:


> Turquoise tracking received!!


I did as well. Here's hoping to get it for the weekend.


----------



## dpage (Dec 24, 2010)

And now USPS confirmation that they have it!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dpage said:


> And now USPS confirmation that they have it!


Is that going to be the new thing?

"OMG, it's at the Philly processing hub now!"

"Today it cleared through Poughkeepsie!"

"Woo-hoo! It's on the truck, out for delivery!"

I'm not saying it bothers me, just making sure I know the agenda for the next couple of days.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Is that going to be the new thing?
> 
> "OMG, it's at the Philly processing hub now!"
> 
> ...


I think you need to give your shipping the Spencer Klein treatment and put up Youtube videos of every step.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> I think you need to give your shipping the Spencer Klein treatment and put up Youtube videos of every step.


I don't know who Spencer Klein is, but I went ahead and liked your post anyway.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Semi-off-topic, check this out, a macro-shot side-by-side comparison of 4 crown stems, from 4 different manufacturers:









I asked my watchmaker to put that together, after we had a problem with a crown stem. I wanted to see if we could spot any quality difference in the finishing of the parts.

If you know crown stems, and you recognize these, please don't say which is which from which manufacturer. I don't want the knowledge of which stem goes with which movement to affect people's opinions by possibly injecting bias into their assessment.

If you want to guess, don't cheat by using Google image search.

I'm curious what people are likely to guess about these stems, specifically, their comparative/relative quality.

If you're a machinist, or have knowledge of this stuff, please don't say.

For everyone else, just looking at the pic, do you have any guess about which one(s) has/have the best finish? Do you want to guess where the stems come from, based on how they look?

If it helps, don't assume anything about any of them based on any fibers or particles visible in the background or sticking to the parts. We're just looking at the parts themselves, and assuming any fibers/particles were on the background material. Assume these parts were all cleaned prior to the pic being taken.


----------



## soufiane (Jul 23, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

I really like the work done by NTH


----------



## dpage (Dec 24, 2010)

docvail said:


> Is that going to be the new thing?
> 
> "OMG, it's at the Philly processing hub now!"
> 
> ...


WrongO it went to Newark!


----------



## guspech750 (Dec 15, 2013)

docvail said:


> Semi-off-topic, check this out, a macro-shot side-by-side comparison of 4 crown stems, from 4 different manufacturers:
> 
> View attachment 13068227
> 
> ...


I'm guessing Muh Swiss is the bestest is the rusted turd.

I have no clue. Just a guess. Really though it gave me a good reason to say Muh Swiss is the bestest.

Made me chuckle. LOLzzzz

Sent from my SM-T378V using Tapatalk


----------



## biggymo6 (May 13, 2016)

docvail said:


> We'll have more available within the next few months.


Can't wait! I pulled together the funds and patiently waited to pull the trigger on the Nacken Vintage Blue...it was not escaping me a second time! Except that it did...didn't see the email notice until 3 hours after it hit my inbox, and by then they were gone again...DAYAM...

Now to squirrel that money away for when they come again...

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

docvail said:


> Semi-off-topic, check this out, a macro-shot side-by-side comparison of 4 crown stems, from 4 different manufacturers:
> 
> View attachment 13068227
> 
> ...


I'm not going to guess who are the manufacturers. But I'll say the last one at the bottom seems like having the best finishing. Wished I can see the threading portion of the last 2 below to confirm.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

I'm going to guess #3. Close up, it looks to have the smoothest finishing around the edges. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hard to say, doc. Completely uneducated opinion, but I would call #2 from the top the worst, because of the grot and vertical striations that it has. 

I also don't much like the profile of #1 and #2: the part where the screw thread stops and transitions into the "stem" looks more narrow than it should be; feels like this could be a snapping point.

#3 seems pretty good, I guess.. (sharp point at the end, lines seem crisp), but I'm miffed by the apparent "inset" on the rectangular surface, the light makes it look like a concave surface. Should I judge the fact that the metal looks different, more "oily"? Like, to me it actually reminds of some cheap metal alloy, not steel.

#4 seems like the most straightforward design, simple construction, I guess to me right now that looks as the "best".

I've no idea which is which, so completely random guess, I'd say that #1 and #2 are eta2824-2 (or stp1-11 or w/e it was called) and sw200, respectively (same shape, so same movement clone. Anecdotal hearsay on forums says that sw200 has less nicely finished parts than 2824). #3 and #4 could be 9015 and 4r35. Not sure which way around... #3 has a more complicated profile, so it's more "fussy" - perhaps #3 is the 9015? Usually I would say that 9015 crowns feel a little bit more fussy than 4r35, and the very plain profile of #4 kinda fits what I would expect to see from seiko's movements...


I'm probably 100% off, aren't i?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'll provide answers / details tomorrow or the next day.


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

I'd also guess 1 and 2 to be ETA and Selita. 3 looks like it has better surface finish, so it could be something more high end.
4 looks simpler, as though unnecessary details have been eliminated. I'd therefore suspect 4 belongs to something low priced but robust, i.e. Seiko.

All are poorly designed in terms of stress concentration. Internal corners should be radiused. Sharp edges on concave surfaces are anathema to good engineering and that's why most common movements are known to have issues with stems snapping if they are frequently wound. It literally would not cost 1c more to make it better and eliminate that fault.


----------



## no-fi (Jul 11, 2013)

Dunno what any are but I like one and three.


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

Thanks for all the explanation.



docvail said:


> First, it's helpful to explain that here in the USA, when we pay sales tax, the tax is not usually included in the stated price. Here in PA, our sales tax is 6%, so anything marked as $500 is going to cost me $530, whether I realize it or not. I'll find out at the register if I don't.


6%. Way to make us dream! ;-)



docvail said:


> Many people don't seem to get this, nor do many seem to understand that mathematically, a $500 price with a guaranteed 20% tax bill is the same as a $600 price.


Here, it is rather (500 + s) * c * v + h with s being shippin, c the customs (about 4.5% on watches here, which would make c in the example 1.045?), v being VAT and h the rather arbitrary and slightly extortionary processing fee. Assuming 500 USD goods, 15 USD shipping and a 25 USD handling fee, we'd be at USD 670.81.



docvail said:


> That said, I also understand that in addition to VAT on the price, you'll also pay VAT on the shipping cost, which could be higher if you're buying from the USA, especially as our international shipping rates seem higher than what folks pay in other parts of the world, and you could also get whacked with an obnoxious processing fee from FedEx or the like.


Yup. Those suck.



docvail said:


> 3. We ship with the US mail, which will coordinate with some other courier in the destination country for final delivery.


That is actually pretty awesome! Easiest one to interface with for me.



docvail said:


> All that said, I do certainly understand the sentiment about preferring to know how you'll be screwed over not knowing whether or not you'll be screwed, and if so, by how much. That sentiment is precisely what led me to using flat rate shipping, rather than implementing a more complex scheme involving weight/distance calculations done at checkout. And, as I said, I am always working to establish good relationships with solid resellers outside the USA.


Flat rate shipping might also help with sales. I personally hate having to go through the whole order process, only to know what shipping charges will be. Surely, I am not the only one. Knowing it up-front makes the decision much easier,


----------



## ryan92084 (Jul 16, 2014)

docvail said:


> Semi-off-topic, check this out, a macro-shot side-by-side comparison of 4 crown stems, from 4 different manufacturers:
> 
> I asked my watchmaker to put that together, after we had a problem with a crown stem. I wanted to see if we could spot any quality difference in the finishing of the parts.
> 
> ...


I would suspect 4 is a newer miyota for being simple but well executed. Beyond that all I can say is I hope #2 is quite old because even if that is a reflection instead of oxidation those screw threads look gnarly.


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

4, 3, 1, 2 to my eyes, judging mostly on the quality of the machining.

3 and 1 are close. Wish I could see the threading on 3. Also, I can't if 1 is fuzzy from bad machining or bad focus.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Maybe it turns out that every stem except for #2 is from a seagull or parnis movement. That would be a fun curveball.

Just to clarify my previous answer.. in order of perceived quality, I would also say (best) 4>3>>1>>>>2 (worst).


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Semi-off-topic, check this out, a macro-shot side-by-side comparison of 4 crown stems, from 4 different manufacturers:
> 
> View attachment 13068227
> 
> ...


The bottom one looks like it has the best machining and the simplest design, which leads me to guess it's pedigree is not-Swiss, not-Chinese, and modern. 

I recognize 1 & 2, so I'll just say, if that is corrosion on 2, I'm really surprised and disappointed.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My watchmaker provided more/better pics. These are in the same order as the one posted yesterday.

There is/was no corrosion on the one stem. I don't know if that was some sort of reflection or what, but I regret the negative impression it gave of that one.

Here are the same stems, in the same order, showing more/better details:

























Since I'm here long enough to post these, but still playing catch-up at work, I'll make my comments now, then bugger off again.

From top to bottom, what you see here are stems for the STP1-11, the ETA 2824-2, the Seiko NH35, and the Miyota 9015.

Of note is that the STP and ETA stems are functionally interchangeable, but when we needed new stems in a hurry, we ordered ETA stems from a parts supplier, as that's all they had, and as you can see, they are not exactly the same (although they are indeed functionally interchangeable).

*My watchmaker says that in his judgment, the machining of the 9015 is best, the ETA and NH35 are equal, and the STP is the worst (though not necessarily "bad", just the 4th place finisher in this comparison). 
*
The thing is, the STP and ETA are both "Swiss" (by the Swiss' own definition), and yet folks scoff at the 9015, and especially at the NH35.

This exercise was precipitated by me finding a crown I couldn't pull out past winding position on one of the DevilRays during QC. He was able to get it out eventually, and found the cause was a metal burr (pointed out by the oiler in the pic below), running the circumference of the stem:









Without wanting to sound as if I'm grinding one or another particular axe, the issue of "quality", especially the market's perception of it, has been on my mind lately, within the context of discussions about "Swiss" vs non-Swiss, accuracy, microbrands versus mainstream brands, this movement vs that movement, etc.

If you read much of what I post, you are likely aware of comments I've made about Sellita not being "equal" to ETA, because of quality issues, the 9015 being very under-rated, and generally that a lot of the online discussion about quality and value involves people who don't know their a$$ from their elbow, and are at best, relying on limited anecdotal info, or at worst, just repeating erroneous BS they read online.

I'm sad to say that I *NEED* a watchmaker because we do get mechanical defects, both in movements and in general assembly (aside from the movements), and we frequently find the cause is something microscopic - literally, not figuratively - something which can only be identified by doing a complete tear-down, cleaning every part, and examining them under high magnification. Look at these issues we've found:

A chipped pallet fork bridge jewel:









The impulse face and locking face on the exit jewel on the pallet fork is chipped:









Gummy oil on one of the auto winder gears:









These were all movements which made it through their manufacturer's QC, and our assembly team's QC, only to show problems later, post-delivery. In many cases, these movements tested fine when put on a timegrapher.

Some may say this is "typical for micros", but c'mon, we're using the same off-the-shelf movements big brands are using. These happen to be from movements in our watches, but as I've said in the past, I've heard similar reports from watchmakers and competitors about Sellitas in big-name brands. This isn't a problem with *my* business, or "micros", or with "China" - this is industry-wide.

The reality is, as I have often said, we need to look past country of origin/manufacture/assembly when judging quality, and as many have often said, you need to buy the seller, not just the brand.

As earnest as I've always been, I readily admit we weren't providing the same level of post-sale service when I first started, compared to what we're doing now. Having sold about 4,000 watches, I'm still learning, but thanks to this sort of detail coming from my watchmaker, my confidence in discussing these matters is higher than ever.

Likewise, I'm becoming less patient with the never-ending debates about "Swiss" vs all others in regards to quality. Every problem illustrated above was in a "Swiss" movement.

To be fair, we've also had a measurable defect rate with the Japanese movements, but the rates are much lower, as are the costs of replacement/repair. The Swiss movements cost enough to make repairing them economically worthwhile. With the Japanese movements, anything other than a quick/easy/cheap fix makes replacement a better option, thanks to their lower purchase cost. The lower defect rate of the Japanese movements certainly doesn't hurt, either.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> My watchmaker provided more/better pics. These are in the same order as the one posted yesterday.
> 
> There is/was no corrosion on the one stem. I don't know if that was some sort of reflection or what, but I regret the negative impression it gave of that one.
> 
> ...


The genuine ETA stems have that collar around the back side of the barrel (the only visual difference the 1-11 stem beside it), while - for reasons I will probably never grasp - most of the aftermarket replacement stems do not. You'd think such a major morphological feature on such a small and intricately machined gizmo would, you know, not be entirely superfluous, but apparently you'd be wrong.

Anyone who regards the 9015 as a movement "inferior" to the entry-level, mass-produced Swiss alternatives probably hasn't handled one and isn't paying attention. What I can't figure out is why Citizen can't figure out how to compete more directly with the Swiss brands on this foundation. Citizen automatics running 901x movements? Not exactly must-buy. From a quick survey of citizenpremium.com, they are only marketing 12 automatic watches.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JakeJD said:


> The genuine ETA stems have that collar around the back side of the barrel (the only visual difference the 1-11 stem beside it), while - for reasons I will probably never grasp - most of the aftermarket replacement stems do not. You'd think such a major morphological feature on such a small and intricately machined gizmo would, you know, not be entirely superfluous, but apparently you'd be wrong.
> 
> Anyone who regards the 9015 as a movement "inferior" to the entry-level, mass-produced Swiss alternatives probably hasn't handled one and isn't paying attention. What I can't figure out is why Citizen can't figure out how to compete more directly with the Swiss brands on this foundation. Citizen automatics running 901x movements? Not exactly must-buy. From a quick survey of citizenpremium.com, they are only marketing 12 automatic watches.


My impression is that the Japanese don't entirely grasp the demands of Western markets (or at least not the WIS segment of Western markets), again, largely due to how much the demands of Western markets are driven by marketing, particularly the marketing of Swiss luxury brands.

It sort of goes like this (in a nutshell/broad-strokes):

The Japanese (particularly Seiko) made a big investment in quartz technology (prior to the quartz crisis), understanding that the market demand for low-cost yet accurate watches would be nigh unlimited.

The Swiss tried but failed to keep pace with the Japanese in quartz tech development, leading to the quartz crisis, and eventually shifted their focus - and the focus of their marketing - back to mechanical movements.

Their investments in lifestyle marketing, with terms like "heritage", de-emphasizing accuracy as something which is important, and raising prices all supported the notion that Swiss MECHANICAL watches are luxury goods, not simply tools for telling time.

The Japanese happily took over the market territory the Swiss willingly ceded each time they raised prices and distanced themselves from the mass market.

And while the Japanese continued to develop and support mechanical movements, they never bought into the notion that mechanical movements are "superior" in any way to quartz. They understand what the Swiss are doing, but Japan isn't Switzerland.

Instead, the Japanese continued to invest in quartz technology.

Citizen went all-in on solar-powered Eco-Drive, and bought Bulova, which gives them another quartz play with the high-beat precisionist movements.

Not to be shut out of the solar game, Seiko came up with "Tough Solar", but also developed Kinetic Quartz, meca-quartz, high-beat quartz, and the pinnacle of electronic-mechanical hybrids, Seiko Spring Drive.

Along the way, Seiko, Citizen and Orient have all continued to make mechanical movements/watches, but without mechanical movements being a core focus of their entry-level and mid-range businesses, where the focus remains primarily on the more mass-marketable quartz movements.

I imagine that for the big 3 or 4 Japanese brands, the sales volume for quartz watches is so much higher than it is for mechanical watches that the R&D budget discussions for automatic movements must be really uncomfortable.

Seiko's NE88 is superior to the Swiss Valjoux 7750, but they don't seem very interested in doing much to promote it, which might actually lead to a production volume high enough to bring its cost down, in line with where it would need to be to get me and more micros to use it.

They don't seem too eager to improve on the NE15 (6r15), either, nor add a GMT module.

Likewise, Citizen doesn't seem to care much about doing more with the 9015, such as adding a GMT variant, or God forbid, developing a chronograph from the 9015 foundation.

All of the above is part of why there is, and will likely continue to be opportunity for micros. The Swiss are steadily marching up in price, abandoning large chunks of the market as they do. The competition from entry-level Swiss and mid-range Japanese in the $300-$700 price range is fairly sparse, compared to how thick it is under $300, and over $700. It's not a coincidence that most micros seem to play in that same price range.

The segment of the market served by micros is very small, dwarfed by the larger segments. It's appropriate that it's being best served by smaller, more nimble businesses. The WIS market is likely not large enough for the big brands to effectively understand and penetrate.

To whatever extent the micros are falling short - and some are - some of the blame is actually on the suppliers, both large and small. Not just ETA or Miyota, but on all the other vendors, for failing to see that this mid-market segment, as small as it may be, has the largest potential for growth, compared to the fairly stable under $300 mass market, and the primarily shrinking over $1000 luxury market.

You can blame micros for bad designs, bad QC, bad service, etc, but you can't blame us for the lack of choices in movements and materials, or the quality of those movements and materials. We can only work with what's available to us, and sold to us. Quite candidly, the choices are limited, and often suck.

As much as I love the 9015, and I do, I loathe Miyota's attitude towards their core customer - which isn't the guy buying a Citizen Signature series, it's me and other micros, the guys buying thousands of 9015 movements to put into our watches. Miyota can't be bothered to even talk to us, nor can Seiko, for that matter.

Not that the Swiss or Chinese suppliers are any better. They're not, really. I liked that I could speak to STP directly, but haven't really enjoyed it as much as I thought I would, given their lack of execution on fixing some of the issues we've brought to their attention, issues it seems Sellita, Soprod and Eterna are all equally slow to address, and ETA seems eager to accelerate.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Really? Orange and Turquoise Devilrays landing on peoples' doorsteps and I come here to find...

...two pages of stem pictures taken under a friggin' electron microscope, and associated analysis. 

TL. 
D. 
F. 
R.

Someone make with the Devilray pictures. Seriously.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*










Amazing


----------



## biggymo6 (May 13, 2016)

The discussion about stems has been fascinating to watch unfold and really highlights in my opinion many common misconceptions about manufacturing. 

To explain, let me offer what I believe to be an analogous situation that may equally resonate with the audience here: which car would you expect to be the objectively higher quality car, a Corvette or a Civic? If we're talking the fit and finish of the body then the Civic will win all day long. Why? Because Civics are made in large enough numbers that the production of the body-in-white is highly automated, and robots are far more repeatable than humans. The Corvette on the other hand has significantly less automation in the production of its body-in-white and was well known to have many quality issues when I worked for GM. 

Doc is once again absolutely right: it's ridiculous to think that being "Swiss" makes the movement superior. There is a lot more than country of origin that goes into the quality of the finished product. Really, country of origin should have little to no bearing technically on production these days. (The main exception historically has been China since export controls have prevented the high-end production technology from entering the market, but that's increasingly changing anyway.)

If you need further proof, then I offer one more example: Foxconn machining Apple MacBook cases out of blocks of aluminum. Anybody who understands precision machining knows that this is perhaps one of the most impressive feats ever...it is ridiculously difficult to hold the tolerance needed for the final assembly when machining anything at that scale. (Rolex is an equally impressive example.)

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Very interesting. The new stem pics certainly do change theappearance a bit.

But, okay, the rust is not there. I still think the 2nd one has a machining problem on the rectangular block. If you look at the striations / lines on the faces of rectangular blocks, what do we see? How will those lines affect the stem movement in-out-in-out of positions?

The miyota stem has striations going horizontal, along the stem. So any movement through a rectangular hole will not snag, since the machining lines are along the movement direction.

The seiko I cannot exactly tell, seems like a smooth enough surface. The stp stem has oddly curved striations, which in some parts end up running perpendicular to the stem. So there's going to be more snagging and friction.

The eta stem, however, has clearly visible perpendicular striations (you can see them on the eta vs. stp 2-stem comparison pic). I think that can and would cause eventual wear on the rectangular socket that the stem fits through.

And, yes, that burring problem on the stp stem is bad  Didn't even see it in the first pictures.

I guess it's nice to see clear evidence that the 9015 is using well-finished parts. The "swiss made" label on the entry-level automatic movements turns out to not be any quality guarantee at all.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

X2-Elijah said:


> Very interesting. The new stem pics certainly do change theappearance a bit.
> 
> But, okay, the rust is not there. I still think the 2nd one has a machining problem on the rectangular block. If you look at the striations / lines on the faces of rectangular blocks, what do we see? How will those lines affect the stem movement in-out-in-out of positions?
> 
> ...


What would be interesting now is to see comparable stem photos from Rolex, Omega, and Patak. Is the finishing and machining far superior?

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Very interesting. The new stem pics certainly do change theappearance a bit.
> 
> But, okay, the rust is not there. I still think the 2nd one has a machining problem on the rectangular block. If you look at the striations / lines on the faces of rectangular blocks, what do we see? How will those lines affect the stem movement in-out-in-out of positions?
> 
> ...


You didn't miss the burr in the first pic. It wasn't there. The pic showing the burr was a different stem. We wanted to see four "good" stems side by side.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skipwilliams said:


> What would be interesting now is to see comparable stem photos from Rolex, Omega, and Patak. Is the finishing and machining far superior?
> 
> Skip
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


If we are to assume some correlation between the machining / finishing / assembly of parts and the service interval and the defect rate, would we be assuming too much? Maybe, maybe not. But the service interval and defect rates are at least somewhat known, and perhaps as logical a proxy as we're likely to find.

Based on my experience, combined with what I've heard from other brand owners, and watchmakers, and all the other anecdotal accounts on the web, my bet would be that the parts in a Japanese movement have the best machining / finishing, followed by the Swiss, then the Chinese.

The issue, I think, is when we add specific luxury brand names to our thinking. I think it's very difficult for people to NOT give the luxury brands credit for being better made / finished. I don't necessarily mind assuming the external finish is better, but if the internal workings of the movement were so much better made, better finished, and better assembled, why is it none of them can go without servicing as long as an entry-level workhorse movement from Japan?

It seems to me that the Japanese put more emphasis on perfection, whereas the Swiss seem pre-occupied with the image of old world craftsmanship, making the purchase of a Swiss watch somewhat like buying a finicky sports car, wherein you must accept the purchase includes the prospect of a torrid, long-term affair with a good mechanic.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> The genuine ETA stems have that collar around the back side of the barrel.


I'd like to put a collar around the back side of your barrel, ya dirty man.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> I'd like to put a collar around the back side of your barrel, ya dirty man.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

I hate it when USPS tracking fails me. It left the local distribution center this morning and shows it should be delivered today but it's after noon and it never shows arriving at my local post office or going out for delivery. I'm hoping it's a case of a missed scan as has happened many times. Hoping it delivers today, otherwise it'll likely be tomorrow.


----------



## cowboys5sb1997 (Jul 16, 2014)

JakeJD said:


>


OMG, I genuinely had to laugh at your response to Doc's obviously dirty mind. Well done sir.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Very interesting. The new stem pics certainly do change theappearance a bit.
> 
> But, okay, the rust is not there. I still think the 2nd one has a machining problem on the rectangular block. *If you look at the striations / lines on the faces of rectangular blocks, what do we see? How will those lines affect the stem movement in-out-in-out of positions?*
> 
> ...


The lines or striations would never snag. Remember these photos are probably magnified 250x or more. To the naked eye they are smooth, even under a 10x or 15x loupe they look smooth. Also, a perfectly smooth or polished surface would allow oil to pool into a drop and not spread out to keep the part lubricated, unless it was under some pressure from an oil pump constantly forcing oil between the bearing and polished surface such as a crankshaft or con-rod in an engine. The "rough" texture is needed to allow the oil to spread out and stick to the parts.

This phenomenon is also experienced with air. An air/fuel mixture flowing through a polished bore would create drag and turbulence and effect performance. Everyone in the racing industry were polishing ports and runners. Al Holbert who raced Porsche's knew a "rough" surface created less drag and turbulence then a polished one. He would hone the bores with a stone honing tool and won races because of it. The officials in the racing circuit band honing of the bores. Normal honing is done in a circular motion, so Al did a line honing process to get around the honing rule and keep winning races. Because normal honing was outlawed, line honing was not.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cerberus today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## GoJoshGo (Dec 18, 2013)

Lights, camera...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Action!


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

SteamJ said:


> I hate it when USPS tracking fails me. It left the local distribution center this morning and shows it should be delivered today but it's after noon and it never shows arriving at my local post office or going out for delivery. I'm hoping it's a case of a missed scan as has happened many times. Hoping it delivers today, otherwise it'll likely be tomorrow.


Effing USPS, they have no idea where it is but think it'll deliver by Saturday (but no guarantees).


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

USPS usually does me right, but ocassionally they can't tell their elbow from their a--a--ankle.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

When you been waiting to see people's wrist shots of a bunch of watches you mailed out earlier in the week and you've maybe seen two...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)




----------



## Sillygoose (Mar 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> When you been waiting to see people's wrist shots of a bunch of watches you mailed out earlier in the week and you've maybe seen two...


Here's another one! This'll likely be on wrist for a while.  Trying to figure out what strap to get for it. The rubber one I ordered with the watch was too long. =(









- Tappy Talkied


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Mine should be delivered tomorrow or Monday...
But you said you didn't want updates on where the tracking system says the watches were...
Your suffering is of your own making, sir!

I'll post plenty o' pics when I get mine, promised!

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Got my orange DR yesterday. I’ll post a wristshot when I’m not on the crapper. 

Doc, you knocked it out of the park with this one. Impeccably finished. It’s big and bold and feels heavy and substantial in the hand but hugs the wrist so well I hardly notice I’m wearing it. 

I’m still wearing my Amphion most of the time still, but I see the DR stealing some time away, especially if the sun ever shines again. This weather isn’t exactly screaming “grab your summer watch”. 

Congrats on a job well done


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Makes me want to go to the beach.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

"Summers here and the time is right for..........."









"......... Dog Day Afternoon."

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pakz said:


> Mine should be delivered tomorrow or Monday...
> But you said you didn't want updates on where the tracking system says the watches were...
> Your suffering is of your own making, sir!
> 
> ...


I just said I wanted to know the agenda for the next few days. I was hoping it would include a bunch of wristies.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> Got my orange DR yesterday. I'll post a wristshot when I'm not on the crapper.
> 
> Doc, you knocked it out of the park with this one. Impeccably finished. It's big and bold and feels heavy and substantial in the hand but hugs the wrist so well I hardly notice I'm wearing it.
> 
> ...


Cheers, Mate!

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Seems like the feedback from people who've received their DR's has all been positive. Always glad to hear peeps enjoy my work.

For anyone who missed out and can't do the in-stock price, there's a white no date on f29.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=4687245

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Sillygoose (Mar 5, 2017)

A few more pics. The DR works well on small (my 5.75") wrists too! 









- Tappy Talkied


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sillygoose said:


> A few more pics. The DR works well on small (my 5.75") wrists too!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed, while I did put work into making the case shape more ergonomic, I wasn't expecting it to wear as well as it seems to on smaller wrists. I've had a number of peeps tell me they were surprised how much they like it, more than expected, due to thinner wrists.

Still, it's a hunk of steel compared to the Subs, and feels a lot lighter off the bracelet, mounted on a strap.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Not a DR, but..

black&white ftw. Simple black leather strap makes this watch into a great everyday casual option.


----------



## Sillygoose (Mar 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> Indeed, while I did put work into making the case shape more ergonomic, I wasn't expecting it to wear as well as it seems to on smaller wrists. I've had a number of peeps tell me they were surprised how much they like it, more than expected, due to thinner wrists.
> 
> Still, it's a hunk of steel compared to the Subs, and feels a lot lighter off the bracelet, mounted on a strap.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Oh yeah. The heft of the watch with the bracelet on is very noticeable. It's a nice heft though that strongly hints at the quality of the total package. It's too much for me, but on a strap, I can barely feel the watch on me! I knew this would be an awesome watch (along with your others) based on all the reviews people have been putting up, but being able to experience it first-hand really brings it home for me. I'm extremely happy I finally get to experience an NTH offering! Amazing job, Chris!

- Tappy Talkied


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

So...not that it "bothers" me, but I've seen enough comments about it to feel I ought to address it...

I don't use "silver" to describe colors since the Acionna. We had some issues with watches being held up by customs officials who apparently saw my description of the colors as "red, white, and silver" and thought the watch included precious metals content, making our customs declarations possibly fraudulent. So I use "champagne" instead of "gold", etc.

I specified "black" and "white" for the DevilRay dials, but when you add the sunray texture, the reflection of light creates the effect of making things look "gray" or "silver", etc. Sometimes the dial suppliers will slightly alter color mixes in order to get the effect we want, lightening or darkening colors as advisable, something I can't always control for, and may not even know about.

Lastly, everyone perceives colors internally. What I think is "red" may be someone else's "pink", so I provide photos on the website for anyone buying the watch to see, rather than relying on words like "white" or "black".

I don't really understand the compulsion some may feel to make an argument about the words used to describe colors, given the ability everyone has to actually see a pic before buying the watch, so I try to steer clear of such hair-splitting and pedantic discussions.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Lastly, everyone perceives colors internally. What I think is "red" may be someone else's "pink", so I provide photos on the website for anyone buying the watch to see, rather than relying on words like "white" or "black".


Yeah. There are so, so many filters in the way of color perception. Humans have different amounts of "red/green/blue" cones, each person has slightly different spectral sensitivity curve on their color-sensing cones, then everyone has different interpretations of colors - in part influenced by what words for colors you learn natively [1] ! - , and lastly, because our brains always try to compensate for ambient illumination. The colors we *see* are almost never the colors we *perceive*.

As an example, this "banana" illusion. It's a slightly exaggerated example, but it does make the point. 
Here's a pic of bananas:








Most people tend to agree that the bananas in that photo are yellow. Sure, it's a slightly weird yellow, but it's still a kind of yellow.

Except, no, it's gray tinged with light blue. Not yellow at all.

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









But, because 1) we have "learned" that bananas are yellow, and 2) we have "learned" how colors change under differently colored light, the color our brains tell us is *not* the color coming out of the pixels/objects/displays.

...
Which is a long way towards saying that it's basically impossible to give an accurate indication of how a watch dial is colored, unless you have clear visual cues in the photo on what tone the illumination has and preferably an easy-to-recognize reference object for our brains to process.

[1]- No word for blue - the mystery of history's missing colour - The Chromologist


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Näcken Modern Black today on the wonderful bracelet.

Skip










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Ok, Doc is looking for wrist shots and I already posted my White DR, here are some Nacken Vintage blue for ya.

Since nothing more can be said about the subs, my only input is about the dial color and texture. The dial is a very beep blue and black/purple depending on the light source. The texture is matte or semi gloss depending on the light source.

Here are flash lighting and sun light shots as well as a lume shot, gotta have a lume shot, right?

About the dial texture and color, it looks like Black Capelin Caviar from Iceland. It looks black but is actually a very beep purple. It's briny and fishy and yummy.
































































7" wrist, bracelet sized to 7 1/4".


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)




----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sillygoose said:


> A few more pics. The DR works well on small (my 5.75") wrists too!
> 
> - Tappy Talkied


Thanks for the smaller wrist shots. I'm in the 6-6.5 inch range and seeing that it works on an even smaller wrist has me all the more excited for receipt of my WatchGauge special edition. I spoke with John from WG earlier this week and he estimated that the special editions will be going out at the end of the month or early next month. That said, this is Doc's thread, so it feels weird to be posting a rumored time estimate.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah. There are so, so many filters in the way of color perception. Humans have different amounts of "red/green/blue" cones, each person has slightly different spectral sensitivity curve on their color-sensing cones, then everyone has different interpretations of colors - in part influenced by what words for colors you learn natively [1] ! - , and lastly, because our brains always try to compensate for ambient illumination. The colors we *see* are almost never the colors we *perceive*.
> 
> As an example, this "banana" illusion. It's a slightly exaggerated example, but it does make the point.
> Here's a pic of bananas:
> ...


My hard and fast rule is any post which makes legitimate use of a banana gets an automatic like.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ratfacedgit said:


> Ok, Doc is looking for wrist shots and I already posted my White DR, here are some Nacken Vintage blue for ya.
> 
> Since nothing more can be said about the subs, my only input is about the dial color and texture. The dial is a very beep blue and black/purple depending on the light source. The texture is matte or semi gloss depending on the light source.
> 
> ...


Awesome, awesome shots! I regularly have to resist the urge to source a vintage or modern blue Nacken (although the vintage black one is very cool looking too), as I adore my vintage Amphion. I mean, come on, that dial . . . an absolute keeper.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Thanks for the smaller wrist shots. I'm in the 6-6.5 inch range and seeing that it works on an even smaller wrist has me all the more excited for receipt of my WatchGauge special edition. I spoke with John from WG earlier this week and he estimated that the special editions will be going out at the end of the month or early next month. That said, this is Doc's thread, so it feels weird to be posting a rumored time estimate.


My understanding from John is he said he's "hoping" before the end of the month, and he was being too optimistic at that.

It's April 20th. They're not done yet. I'm hoping to hear my factory is shipping them to me next week, or at the latest, before the end of this month. They still need to get here, clear customs, go through QC, then get from me to John, who will need time to get them from him to you.

I don't think all that will happen before the end of the month. I think it's more likely to be sometime in May.

I understand that the fact we were early with some, and are delivering more but not all now, has created confusion. I'd have avoided it if I could have.

When I announced the pre-order, we targeted delivery for March/April. We're pretty close to being right on target, and have shipped all orders placed before mid-November. I appreciate the patience of everyone who ordered after that, and the understanding that with pre-orders, we need to be realistic and flexible in our expectations.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I am still waiting on my Bluquise up here in Toronto land but I found another fine NTH product to learn about. @docvail when will you be unveiling those hawt Car protos you have been working on. Btw Happy 4-20 for all you indulge. I do not usually but sometimes not matter how hard you try, sometimes you just have to let go. No judgement I hope....Slainte too all and have a dram.










Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Huu... Looks bad for me. The customs have blocked my DR due to "missing invoice" and supposedly will "contact me"... That sounds like a lot of delays... I was so happy at how fast shipping was going this time... Arghhhh...

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## dpage (Dec 24, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Looking fine!


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Guess what day it is? That's right:









UNBOXING DAY.

First, let me dispense with the standard "look how nicely my Christmas present was wrapped SoExcitedSoExcitedSoExcited" pics:

























Now to the important stuff. I'm sorry these pics were taken under my dining room light; they really don't do the turqoise (or any other color, for that matter) justice. Even though I've been stalking pictures of this watch for months, there are a lot of little crisp details that pop in person that just don't come across in the pictures. The hand set, indexes, chapter ring, bezel... they're just right. As always, Doc's extreme attention to detail during design paid off.









Condition of the watch is impeccable. I went over it millimeter-by-millimeter and link-by-link with a loupe and found no blemishes, imperfections or misalignments.

Bezel rotation is firm with no perceptible slop. This is my first STP-11 movement, I could feel the difference from other movements when winding it. Neither good or bad, just... notably different. The stem engaged solidly when adjusting both time and date, and the crown screwed back down smoothly after, so no issues there.

Bracelet quality is one of my pet peeves, so I'm probably going to spend more time on this subject than most of you care for, since about half of you will immediately throw your DRs on straps anyway. But I'm extremely picky about bracelets, and I have to say that this is probably the single best-machined bracelet of any that I own. The links fit together precisely; as I shake my wrist, there's no audible rattle from the bracelet. It looks and feels as though the threading for the screws is almost the entire width of the last link section (of the five, from right to left, opposite where the screw is inserted). The threads are smooth and engage easily. I'm always worried about stripping threads when adjusting bracelets, but this bracelet adjusted easily.

Others have commented on sharp edges on the clasp, and although I found some edges that were slightly sharp on mine, they were on the ends where the clasp meets the links, not on inside portions that come in contact with my wrist. I've only been wearing the watch for about an hour now, but so far it feels extremely comfortable.









Full disclosure, I have a soft spot for cushion-case divers, which is why I've been so excited about this watch. I also own a Doxa 1200T and two Seiko SRP Turtles. Others have made comparisons including pics here before, but I'll reiterate, since I couldn't resist comparing tonight. The DR "wears" a lot smaller than the turtle, owing to its smaller dial and bezel. And although the cases are roughly the same height, the geometry of the DR makes it feel like the case sits a little closer to my wrist. That may be the contour of the case-back, or it may be the DR's recessed bezel. I haven't decided yet.

















Although the price points aren't that much different, the two watches obviously aren't in the same class, and I say that as a guy who loves the SRP. But especially with the recent SRP price creep, I'd tell anyone considering a turtle to scrape together the extra cash and spring for a DR.

Bottom line: Outstanding watch, couldn't be happier with it right now. It will take me a few months of wrist time to really get to know it, but right now my DR is a strong candidate for The Watch.

10 for 10, Chris. Bravo.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Just... Dayum.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> My understanding from John is he said he's "hoping" before the end of the month, and he was being too optimistic at that.
> 
> It's April 20th. They're not done yet. I'm hoping to hear my factory is shipping them to me next week, or at the latest, before the end of this month. They still need to get here, clear customs, go through QC, then get from me to John, who will need time to get them from him to you.
> 
> ...


"Hoping" sounds right (i.e., what was said). But then after calling John, I realized I could bait you in this thread with a questionable time estimate to know with more certainty 

I only pre-ordered a month or so ago, so delivery likely in May is perfectly speedy for me given a late pre-order. Well, if "me" = the logical part of my brain; the emotional side that's been seeing more and more recent wrist shots, well . . .

Thanks for the status update.


----------



## tbs7777 (Jan 29, 2008)

Hi Coriolanus,
could you please post one or two comparison pics with your Doxa 1200T.
Thanks.


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

Quick review:

I've owned a bunch of Doc's watches. A Commander 300, several subs, and a couple Tropics. The devil ray is definitely the nicest of the bunch, and that's saying something as the others were fantastic.

In general the watch is like a Sumo and a Doxa Sub had a baby and dropped it in a radioactive pool of lume. Highlights as follows.

-The case is very nicely executed, with a nice mix of brushed and polished elements and a smoothness to the overall design that reminds me of a river pebble or a bunker or something. The case back doesn't extend much beyond the case, which helps with comfort on the wrist.

-The lume is nuclear. Seriously the best I've ever seen.

-The depth meter/seconds running track is far less noticeable in real life than the renders suggested, but gives a nice pop of color. I like it!

-The dial definitely comes across as charcoal grey per docs earlier comments.

-The bracelet is nice. I like its weight as a counterbalance to the chunky watch head, and it's a unique design that's well executed with all the segments being independent (as opposed to fused together). The small polished center link looks great. One tip: get some loctite on those screws ASAP.

-The clasp is........ Fortunately the endlinks going into the clasp are flat and fit into a standard fliplock clasp! Here's a couple pics:



















Doc, if you did what Raven is doing on the Venture and offered a branded clasp in this style I'd pay you good American dollars for one. Just sayin.

Family shots:



















If you're on the fence on this one take the leap. You'll be happy with it! ?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

tbs7777 said:


> Hi Coriolanus,
> could you please post one or two comparison pics with your Doxa 1200T.
> Thanks.


Yep, was kinda expecting that question, since I didn't do it last night. This is probably a more apples-to-apples comparison than the SRP comparison anyway. I'll try to get some up before the end of the day.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Please delete


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

This is great to hear. I have a 6 3/4" wrist and had thought about this a bit. If I can pull off an Aragon watch, this should be a breeze lol. Great pics btw.



Sillygoose said:


> A few more pics. The DR works well on small (my 5.75") wrists too!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome pics. Thanks for the write up as this will be my first cushion case and it had me a bit apprehensive. I now REAL anxious lol.



Coriolanus said:


> Guess what day it is? That's right:
> 
> View attachment 13076407
> 
> ...


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Took DR down the the beach this morning for sunrise. It frustrates me that I can't seem to capture the way that the turquoise "pops" in pictures. I'll have to keep trying. In the meantime...
















BTW, WIS moment: When everyone else on the beach is fixated on a great sunrise, and you're taking pics of your watch. It's a thing.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Just 1 bad photo for now but more will come when I have the time. Very impressed so far. It's definitely better than the prototype and that was impressive to begin with.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

tbs7777 said:


> Hi Coriolanus,
> could you please post one or two comparison pics with your Doxa 1200T.
> Thanks.


Per your request. This is a much more apples-to-apples comparison (except for price, with the Doxa at 3x):















Sorry the Doxa is on silicone, but that strap was a pain in the @$$ to get on, so I'm not swapping it. They feel much more comparable in terms of how they wear, although the Doxa still feels maybe a bit "taller", due to the DR's recessed bezel. Hope this helps. Now I think I've spammed the thread enough for a little while.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Per your request. This is a much more apples-to-apples comparison (except for price, with the Doxa at 3x):
> 
> Sorry the Doxa is on silicone, but that strap was a pain in the @$$ to get on, so I'm not swapping it. They feel much more comparable in terms of how they wear, although the Doxa still feels maybe a bit "taller", due to the DR's recessed bezel. Hope this helps. Now I think I've spammed the thread enough for a little while.


You're not done until there's a lume comparison, and a comparison of wrist-shots looking down your arm.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> You're not done until there's a lume comparison, and a comparison of wrist-shots looking down your arm.


Touche'...

I can say up front that there will be no competition for the lume. I've never been impressed by Doxa's lume, and as others have documented, if you had 50 DevilRays you could use them to mark a runway at night for aircraft on final approach. The SRP will at least put up a decent fight. But on a side note, this is also my first watch with a lumed bezel. It was strange the first time I looked at it in the dark, because the bezel becomes a part of the dial when only the lume is visible. So I look at my wrist and suddenly I feel like I'm wearing this 60mm Flava Flav special edition 

Side note on the Doxa comparison. I've loved the Doxa design from the moment I saw it, and that hasn't changed. My 1200T was one of the first watches I ordered, before I really knew what to look for on delivery of a new watch. After a few months of wearing it daily though, I started noticing QC issues stuff like the small bit of debris under the crystal that I eventually spotted. There were at least three things that I eventually found wrong with my Doxa any of which would have resulted in me returning the watch immediately if I'd known to look at the things that I check on a new watch today. I'm not trying to bash them as a brand; I still love their design, and the fact that I've yearned for a turquoise edition Doxa (like the Project Aware II) for years is the main reason that I ordered my DR in turquoise. But I had the bad luck to get a watch with flaws (fully acknowledging that it may have been a one-in-a-thousand thing), and that has turned me off to ever buying from the brand again. Someday I'll probably take my 1200T to a watchmaker and get all the little stuff that bugs me fixed. But I'm done with Doxa. I just can't bring myself to reward them with any additional business.

I know there's been a lot of discussion here recently on QC, most of which I've glossed over. But Swiss, Japanese, American... I think that reputation for reliability is almost impossible to win back if lost. In that regard, I find myself migrating towards proven microbrands where I know that the guy in charge is working to earn and keep the business of every customer. Just my .02.


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

Lume comparison. Doxa sub 300 - DR - Sumo w/ aftermarket lumed bezel. 2nd pic is 5 mins after the first.



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Touche'...
> 
> I can say up front that there will be no competition for the lume. I've never been impressed by Doxa's lume, and as others have documented, if you had 50 DevilRays you could use them to mark a runway at night for aircraft on final approach. The SRP will at least put up a decent fight. But on a side note, this is also my first watch with a lumed bezel. It was strange the first time I looked at it in the dark, because the bezel becomes a part of the dial when only the lume is visible. So I look at my wrist and suddenly I feel like I'm wearing this 60mm Flava Flav special edition
> 
> ...


Without wanting to sound like I'm criticizing you or your habits, this and some of your previous posts make me think you're a bit, shall we say, "detail-obsessed", which can sometimes seem "nitpicky".

My intent isn't to put you on the defensive, only to set up the suggestion that I think many WIS can get caught up looking for and/or seeing faults, and it ruins their enjoyment of the hobby. If you put a watch under a microscope and stare at it long enough, you'll find something "wrong", real or imaginary.

It seems like many WIS can't ever say a watch is "perfect", and feel they have to find something to criticize, or risk losing their street cred. It used to irritate me, but now I feel bad for people when I see them working hard to find fault in a watch that anyone in the industry would consider outstanding, if not "perfect".

That's not to say you should just ignore legit problems, but rather to say these things happen. No one's QC is 100% perfect. I've already had to address a couple issues - legit ones - with a couple DevilRays we shipped.

Sometimes things slip through, and when that happens, if the issue is caught in time to get the seller's support, and they offer a remedy, they should be forgiven for whatever was missed in QC (or for selling you something that's only as perfect as they could make it for the price asked). If it's too late to get the seller's support, then try to forgive yourself for overlooking it at first, consider getting it sorted if possible, and just try to enjoy the watch.

I love Doxas, for the most part. My old watchmaker had one, a GMT, and it was awesome. I wanted to make something like them, my version of that style, so we made the DevilRay. Just about everything we've produced is, fundamentally, my version of something I wanted but couldn't have. I usually end up liking my version more.

Semi-related, in case it shows I can walk the walk, not just talk the talk, I recently received the Helson Sharkmaster 300, the third watch I've bought this year, in addition to two Seikos (SBDC053, and an orange Samurai), breaking a multi-year streak of only wearing stuff we've made.

My original intent with all of them was to NOT wear them. I bought them mostly as design references, "competitive research", and possibly to flip for a profit down the road. I figured I'd leave them in in the plastic, in the box, on a shelf. But I realized I'll learn more about the designs by wearing them, what I like or don't like about them, etc.

Before wearing the Helson and Samurai, I removed the bracelets and left them in the case. Neither was "bad", but nor were they "great" in my opinion. I chalked up the weaknesses in them as compromises made when you buy affordable watches. I threw the Helson on a seatbelt NATO from Zach, and the Samurai on a rubber strap.

A couple days ago, I noticed a mark on the side of the Helson, no idea how it got there or when. There was a moment of pure, unadulterated "muthaf**kka!", but that passed quickly, I shrugged, and moved on with my life. It's still a fun watch, and now that it's marked, I can stop thinking about keeping it pristine.

All of which is just to say, life's too short, my friend, to obsess over finding perfection, which is an impossible standard to expect in all things, especially watches, particularly affordable pieces. Embrace the wabi-sabi, and just try to enjoy what you have as much as you can, while you can.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Doc; just out of curiosity, why did you go with the STP movement in this watch rather than the Miyota? You seem to be pretty positive about the Miyota in your posts here, and I was wondering if something about the STP struck you as being superior? My apologies if this is answered somewhere else.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Ratfacedgit said:


> Ok, Doc is looking for wrist shots and I already posted my White DR, here are some Nacken Vintage blue for ya.
> 
> Since nothing more can be said about the subs, my only input is about the dial color and texture. The dial is a very beep blue and black/purple depending on the light source. The texture is matte or semi gloss depending on the light source.
> 
> ...


This was an excellent post. Thanks so much for your wonderful photographs, and your caviar metaphor is interesting, lol


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Without wanting to sound like I'm criticizing you or your habits, this and some of your previous posts make me think you're a bit, shall we say, "detail-obsessed", which can sometimes seem "nitpicky".
> 
> My intent isn't to put you on the defensive, only to set up the suggestion that I think many WIS can get caught up looking for and/or seeing faults, and it ruins their enjoyment of the hobby. If you put a watch under a microscope and stare at it long enough, you'll find something "wrong", real or imaginary.
> 
> ...


Valid observation and sound advice.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Coriolanus said:


> Valid observation and sound advice.


Indeed, *W.R.H.C. - WIS Rabbit Hole Complex* - is a certifiable virus and to be body-swerved at all costs (Hint: stay away from F2), it will deffo negate your wrist watch enjoyment quotient.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> Doc; just out of curiosity, why did you go with the STP movement in this watch rather than the Miyota? You seem to be pretty positive about the Miyota in your posts here, and I was wondering if something about the STP struck you as being superior? My apologies if this is answered somewhere else.


Long story.

Short version - cost-benefit analysis.


----------



## dpage (Dec 24, 2010)

Finally got it on the bracelet, and another phone wristie! Check all screws as several were loose, but great easy to work with bracelet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dpage said:


> Finally got it on the bracelet, and another phone wristie! Check all screws as several were loose, but great easy to work with bracelet.


One word - Loctite.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So, here's kind of a cool thing I just realized...

Tomorrow marks the 5 year anniversary of my first watch sale as "Lew & Huey".




Don't know what I was expecting, but...I dunno, clowns, maybe, and a bounce-house.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> So, here's kind of a cool thing I just realized...
> 
> Tomorrow marks the 5 year anniversary of my first watch sale as "Lew & Huey".
> 
> Don't know what I was expecting, but...I dunno, clowns, maybe, and a bounce-house.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Long story.
> 
> Short version - cost-benefit analysis.


Fair enough; will the STP be featured in future NTH watches as well, or will the Miyota stage a comeback?


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Congrats!! You are a hero to us all!!! (too much?)



docvail said:


> So, here's kind of a cool thing I just realized...
> 
> Tomorrow marks the 5 year anniversary of my first watch sale as "Lew & Huey".
> 
> Don't know what I was expecting, but...I dunno, clowns, maybe, and a bounce-house.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> So, here's kind of a cool thing I just realized...
> 
> Tomorrow marks the 5 year anniversary of my first watch sale as "Lew & Huey".
> 
> Don't know what I was expecting, but...I dunno, clowns, maybe, and a bounce-house.


Congrats and bloody well done Mate, how about that??

Keep on creating, don't ever let your standards drop.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> Fair enough; will the STP be featured in future NTH watches as well, or will the Miyota stage a comeback?


Like Willie Nelson and Elvis sang, the 9015 was always on my mind.

It's never left.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/5-years-huge-thanks-4689107.html#post45854857


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Without wanting to sound like I'm criticizing you or your habits, this and some of your previous posts make me think you're a bit, shall we say, "detail-obsessed", which can sometimes seem "nitpicky".
> 
> My intent isn't to put you on the defensive, only to set up the suggestion that I think many WIS can get caught up looking for and/or seeing faults, and it ruins their enjoyment of the hobby. If you put a watch under a microscope and stare at it long enough, you'll find something "wrong", real or imaginary.
> 
> ...


So I've given this some more thought as the day has gone on, and I'd like to revisit it with a more complete response, though my initial one still stands as far as it goes.

I currently have 14 watches in my watch box, which is to say watches that I wear at least occasionally, as opposed to those that are boxed up in my closet. Not counting the DevilRay (still too new), I can point to each of them to say what's "wrong" with them. Some examples are watches that run within spec but slow enough to annoy me but that I haven't taken the time to regulate, watches that wear too big, watches where the bezel has a little bit of slop, watches where the stem doesn't engage smoothly enough for my tastes when setting date or time, etc, etc. None of these things precludes me from wearing them, but they are things that I'm aware of. In that regard, I'm confirming your statement about being too nitpicky.

Here's where things get irrational and WISy. There are issues that I'm ok with, and issues that I'm not. Furthermore, these issues are taken in context with the cost/expected quality of the watch. For example, one of my two SRP's has the dreaded chapter ring misalignment. but given that it's such a known issue that it's almost a signature of the brand, and given the lost cost of the watch, I'm ok with it. My other turtle runs 25 seconds a day slow, which is in spec, but it drives me up the wall (but 25 seconds a day too fast would have been ok). I'm ok with marks that I put on the case or that I bought used with marks due to fair wear and tear, but anything in or under the crystal bugs the crap out of me. There's no unraveling this ball of crazy; it just is what it is, and it's been an evolving feature of my journey in this hobby.

Regarding the Doxa, I readily acknowledge that I can't blame them for an issue that I never gave them the opportunity to fix. I do kick myself a little about not being more methodical in my inspection. Really, I just popped the thing open, took a few links out of the bracelet and slapped it on; that's how I rolled back then. But under that there is a simmering resentment that one of the most expensive watches in my collection has flaws that I wouldn't expect to make it past the QC of a lower-tier brand. Unfair? Maybe. But that's just how it is with me.

I'm sure that eventually I will zero in on that thing about the DR that starts to bug me, whether I want to or not. But for now, at least, it's "perfect enough", and maybe, just maybe it will stay that way.

I'll close by repeating my original response: "Valid observation and sound advice". Being a WIS is what it is.


----------



## JCartwright77 (Mar 22, 2018)

Picked this up today second hand from a fellow Louisvillian. I have never owned a Lew and Huey, but I'm glad I do now. Attention to detail abounds... How bout that little fingernail cut out in the case under the crown? Your on notice other watch makers I love, I mean the freaking second hand sweep is completely












even with top of indices!!! Thanks Robot Dog Watch Maker Person


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> So I've given this some more thought as the day has gone on, and I'd like to revisit it with a more complete response, though my initial one still stands as far as it goes.
> 
> I currently have 14 watches in my watch box, which is to say watches that I wear at least occasionally, as opposed to those that are boxed up in my closet. Not counting the DevilRay (still too new), I can point to each of them to say what's "wrong" with them. Some examples are watches that run within spec but slow enough to annoy me but that I haven't taken the time to regulate, watches that wear too big, watches where the bezel has a little bit of slop, watches where the stem doesn't engage smoothly enough for my tastes when setting date or time, etc, etc. None of these things precludes me from wearing them, but they are things that I'm aware of. In that regard, I'm confirming your statement about being too nitpicky.
> 
> ...


If it makes you feel better, around here, you're just "normal".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JCartwright77 said:


> Picked this up today second hand from a fellow Louisvillian. I have never owned a Lew and Huey, but I'm glad I do now. Attention to detail abounds... How bout that little fingernail cut out in the case under the crown? Your on notice other watch makers I love, I mean the freaking second hand sweep is completely
> View attachment 13078293
> View attachment 13078291
> even with top of indices!!! Thanks Robot Dog Watch Maker Person


Uhm...yer welcome?

To be fair, the fingernail cutout under the crown is actually pretty common, common enough that I notice its absence. I can't take credit for that one.

The hands' length? Look, I've spent a lot of time on WUS, since before I attempted my first design. I'd have to be blind to not see the frequent WIS-type complaints, handset length being among the most frequent, so...okay, I guess I can accept some cool points for not being blind or ignoring the obvious.

The rest - let me just say I like when people pick up on the little details I or my team spent time thinking about, so, thanks. It's a good feeling to know people enjoy my work.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> Fair enough; will the STP be featured in future NTH watches as well, or will the Miyota stage a comeback?


Sorry, I actually typed out a long-a$$ "wall of text" reply, but deleted it, because too long, maybe too much detail, and who cares that much?

I hope I didn't seem rude in what I actually posted.

There's no short version of what went on with movements, product development, etc, the last two years. It's complicated. As the Dude says, lots of ins and outs.

There were good reasons for every decision, whether they worked out as planned or not, and regardless of any appearance that I may have altered or reversed course.

My current plans involve a lot of 9015. I try not to look too far ahead. For me, having a good compass is better than having a good map.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Day 2 with DR. I too have a Doxa 1200. They wear similar to m as far as weight and they both seem to sit pretty flat on top of my wrist. I like the bracelet that's not just another oyster style but something uncommon with a cool look. Lume is great of course. Funny to me, when I first picked the watch up out of the box I thought it was fairly heavy but on the wrist it definitely doesn't feel that way.


----------



## dpage (Dec 24, 2010)

I have never owned a Lew and Huey, I just never saw one I cared for. Didn't know about NTH until the talk started about the DR, so this is my first but likely not my last. I have my eye on the NTH subs even though I already have too many other subs. I can't wait to see what' next!
Congrats on you five year milestone!!!


----------



## dpage (Dec 24, 2010)

By the way this thread is way too long, it's a pain waiting for it to load!


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Sorry, I actually typed out a long-a$$ "wall of text" reply, but deleted it, because too long, maybe too much detail, and who cares that much?
> 
> I hope I didn't seem rude in what I actually posted.
> 
> ...


No, not rude at all, though I do appreciate the clarification. The only reason I was so curious is because I followed the discussion a few pages back in this thread about QC differences between the various Swiss and Japanese movements, and you seemed like you were very much in the 9015 camp, so I was just wondering if there was anything going on there re. the switch in movements for the most recent watch. I understand there's probably a lot of ins and outs of the business involved (though I'd be lying if I said they didn't interest me in the slightest).


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Sorry, I actually typed out a long-a$$ "wall of text" reply, but deleted it, because too long, maybe too much detail, and who cares that much?
> 
> I hope I didn't seem rude in what I actually posted.
> 
> ...


I enjoy watches, and I enjoy YOUR watches, so for me to be able to kind of get behind the scenes of the decision making is cool... I would never have that opportunity with Omega or whoever, but here I can at least ostensibly post a question and have a reasonable expectation of having an answer, so I figured I'd just try to see what goes on behind the curtain, lol


----------



## JCartwright77 (Mar 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> Uhm...yer welcome?
> 
> To be fair, the fingernail cutout under the crown is actually pretty common, common enough that I notice its absence. I can't take credit for that one.
> 
> ...


I have never owned a watch with that cut out, so that is something I will have to look for in the future, it's a nice feature. As a new watch enthusiast it is fun learning about watch design and the elements of design I feel are important to have included in a piece. I appreciate the thoughtfulness and detail that went into a very affordable watch, like where the second hand ends on the dial, and the shade of blue chosen. I look forward to future designs from you and your team.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

JCartwright77 said:


> I have never owned a watch with that cut out, so that is something I will have to look for in the future, it's a nice feature. As a new watch enthusiast it is fun learning about watch design and the elements of design I feel are important to have included in a piece. I appreciate the thoughtfulness and detail that went into a very affordable watch, like where the second hand ends on the dial, and the shade of blue chosen. I look forward to future designs from you and your team.


In my experience, alot of seiko 5s have that. It's a much appreciated feature, for sure


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

No over or under tightening here. My crown just ends up this way.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

mattm0691 said:


> This was an excellent post. Thanks so much for your wonderful photographs, and your caviar metaphor is interesting, lol


Thank you, I find food references in everything from cars to motorcycles to cigars to guitars to beer to wine. I like food references in music as well, because I can instantly see the image.

One music line that always cracks me up is, "Your eyes look like 2 cherries in a glass of buttermilk."  




RFG


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

docvail said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/5-years-huge-thanks-4689107.html#post45854857


And you will celebrate with caviar and champagne today, right?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ratfacedgit said:


> And you will celebrate with caviar and champagne today, right?


So far it's just been a Jimmy Dean breakfast sammich and a cup of chai latte.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

I'll have to say that all the devilrayposting on here broke my will and forced me to pick up user @mplsabdullah's NIB example that he had listed in the for sale forum. Sooooo... Thanks for costing me ~550 dollars, yall, lol..


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

mattm0691 said:


> I'll have to say that all the devilrayposting on here broke my will and forced me to pick up user @mplsabdullah's NIB example that he had listed in the for sale forum. Sooooo... Thanks for costing me ~550 dollars, yall, lol..


I'll bet a buffalo nickel that you won't regret it.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

DR day two. Stormy day in Florida, sipping morning coffee on the back porch. This watch... smh.









...and a crappy smart phone lume shot from last night. This thing glows so bright it casts shadows.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Coriolanus said:


> DR day two. Stormy day in Florida, sipping morning coffee on the back porch. This watch... smh.
> 
> View attachment 13079631
> 
> ...


I freaking love that countdown/12 hour bezel. It's like having a GMT. TBH that functionality was one of the biggest selling points for me. Really makes this into the total package.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> I freaking love that countdown/12 hour bezel. It's like having a GMT. TBH that functionality was one of the biggest selling points for me. Really makes this into the total package.


It's funny how often the distinctive things some folks love are exactly the things other folks hate on.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> It's funny how often the distinctive things some folks love are exactly the things other folks hate on.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


I'm with Matt. This is definitely a distinctive feature. Curious that anyone would hate on it. BTW, what's the finish on that outer (black) bezel portion?


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

Ratfacedgit said:


> View attachment 13075717


Okay, that's a first for me. Coolest thing I've seen today!


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> It's funny how often the distinctive things some folks love are exactly the things other folks hate on.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Ehhhh I can kind of see why a certain type of person would dislike this. It seems like it would be the same kind of person who CAN'T STAND a date window on any watch because it ruins dial symmetry. I mean, it kind of does in some cases, but hell, it's useful. So, it's a trade off. The countdown/GMT feature definitely makes the bezel look a little crowded, and the purely aesthetic camp probably hates that; but for me, it's a trade off for extra usefulness.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

It does kind of strike me that people would hate on that feature in THIS watch though, because my impression of the DR is that it's all about function, and the form just follows from that. I mean, the inclusion of the depth meter color ring thingie is clearly a nod to an intended "toolish" use, as are the shrouded bezel, and many other features. So yeah, it doesn't make sense that someone would necessarily look for elegance above all else, at the expense of functionality, in this particular example


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> I'm with Matt. This is definitely a distinctive feature. Curious that anyone would hate on it. BTW, what's the finish on that outer (black) bezel portion?


The finish is DLC, brushed.

I suppose there's an element of "hate this guy and his brand, so find something to hate in his watch", but in the absense of seeing a clear pattern supporting that belief about someone, I assume peeps are just expressing their opinions, and some folks view it as too busy, or whatever.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> Ehhhh I can kind of see why a certain type of person would dislike this. It seems like it would be the same kind of person who CAN'T STAND a date window on any watch because it ruins dial symmetry. I mean, it kind of does in some cases, but hell, it's useful. So, it's a trade off. The countdown/GMT feature definitely makes the bezel look a little crowded, and the purely aesthetic camp probably hates that; but for me, it's a trade off for extra usefulness.


This.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

That DR bezel. Doc, how about a Sub with that 12h+timing bezel insert? The DR is a bit much for me to pull off; and there hasn't been a sub yet that hit everything right, but I do love that case design. One with that type of bezel might just do it 

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> It does kind of strike me that people would hate on that feature in THIS watch though, because my impression of the DR is that it's all about function, and the form just follows from that. I mean, the inclusion of the depth meter color ring thingie is clearly a nod to an intended "toolish" use, as are the shrouded bezel, and many other features. So yeah, it doesn't make sense that someone would necessarily look for elegance above all else, at the expense of functionality, in this particular example


I think many micros, myself included, feel a sense of underdog challenge to offer "more" in various ways, which leads to the amazing diversity in microbrand designs and often compelling value. But a large segment of the WIS population is fairly conservative in their tastes, so a lot of it probably just seems like "too much".

The Halios Seaforth, and the seemingly unlimited demand for it may be seen as an example of what that segment of the market really wants. It's distinctive for its lack of distinctive features. It has what I think of as a very "crisp", no-nonsense design.

I've thought about doing something in a similar vein, a more sedate sort of everyday, not trying to be James Bond or Dirk Pitt kind of design. It's actually challenging for me, because I always feel compelled to throw every good idea I have into every model.

Just as an example, I always admired the "Basic Black" look of watches like the Oris Artix. I've thought about doing something similar, and I quickly end up thinking about something that looks more like the Certina DS-1, which I owned. It was so good in so many ways, and more "my speed" in the complexity of its design. It's hard for me to feel excited about or confident in producing something that doesn't stand apart in some way.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wimads said:


> That DR bezel. Doc, how about a Sub with that 12h+timing bezel insert? The DR is a bit much for me to pull off; and there hasn't been a sub yet that hit everything right, but I do love that case design. One with that type of bezel might just do it
> 
> Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


Stay tuned.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> I think many micros, myself included, feel a sense of underdog challenge to offer "more" in various ways, which leads to the amazing diversity in microbrand designs and often compelling value. But a large segment of the WIS population is fairly conservative in their tastes, so a lot of it probably just seems like "too much".
> 
> The Halios Seaforth, and the seemingly unlimited demand for it may be seen as an example of what that segment of the market really wants. It's distinctive for its lack of distinctive features. It has what I think of as a very "crisp", no-nonsense design.
> 
> ...


I think that you're right. This speaks to the shocking and (to me) inexplicable cult status that the Rolex Sub has in the eyes and minds of almost every WIS. Homages abound, and the Sub remains almost the universal grail watch. It seems that most of us are very conservative in our aesthetic tastes, and we get a little nervous when we think about treading outside of the realm of black and white dial, maybe with a bezel. I get it, my tastes kind of lie in that realm as well, and most of my favorite watches or designs tend to be in that camp; but I also think that I have enough black dialled divers at this point in my life where something like the DR with it's multicolored ring around the dial and crowded bezel strikes me as being cool and something I can enjoy. It might not make it as my ONLY watch, because pulling off a piece like that in a more formal setting might not go over as well as a sub or seaforth type design that is bland to the point of innocuity, but it's certainly more exciting, and is a more of the kind of watch that you look forward to the weekend so you can wear it to the beach, and it's a bit of an event.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> I think that you're right. This speaks to the shocking and (to me) inexplicable cult status that the Rolex Sub has in the eyes and minds of almost every WIS. Homages abound, and the Sub remains almost the universal grail watch. It seems that most of us are very conservative in our aesthetic tastes, and we get a little nervous when we think about treading outside of the realm of black and white dial, maybe with a bezel. I get it, my tastes kind of lie in that realm as well, and most of my favorite watches or designs tend to be in that camp; but I also think that I have enough black dialled divers at this point in my life where something like the DR with it's multicolored ring around the dial and crowded bezel strikes me as being cool and something I can enjoy. It might not make it as my ONLY watch, because pulling off a piece like that in a more formal setting might not go over as well as a sub or seaforth type design that is bland to the point of innocuity, but it's certainly more exciting, and is a more of the kind of watch that you look forward to the weekend so you can wear it to the beach, and it's a bit of an event.


I think the mystique surrounding the Rolex Sub is a result which comes from a mix of the merits it's earned, and the benefit of fortunate circumstances.

I'm sure a book could be written discussing it, but I think it boils down to it being a good aesthetic design combined with a solid history and the shrewd management of the brand and business.

Likewise, I'm sure I could write a wall of text about the clear contradictions between what people profess to value (like, "originality") versus what they actually buy (more often than not, the "familiar"), but instead, I'll leave you with this one sentence and let y'all infer the rest.

I gotta get back to work.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

It would be cool to see you do something with an Explorer type piece. Basic is tough for us WiSers around here but a basic stripped down explorer that can be a dressy type watch. That would be the one to blow your mind. 

You know what...Eff that idea. I just came back from a 5 1/2" walk so a bit light headed. So perhaps a lack of blood to my head atm lol.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> It would be cool to see you do something with an Explorer type piece. Basic is tough for us WiSers around here but a basic stripped down explorer that can be a dressy type watch. That would be the one to blow your mind.
> 
> You know what...Eff that idea. I just came back from a 5 1/2" walk so a bit light headed. So perhaps a lack of blood to my head atm lol.


Didn't want to go for 6 inches?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> Didn't want to go for 6 inches?


It's been a while Glen, but worth waiting for...


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Ruggs said:


> -The clasp is........ Fortunately the endlinks going into the clasp are flat and fit into a standard fliplock clasp! Here's a couple pics:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, after a little more wrist time, I have to agree with Ruggs on the clasp. I didn't find it uncomfortable, since the sharp edges (at least on mine) are on the ends and not in contact with my wrist. But this afternoon I noticed that after holding my 10 month-old son with my left arm, the clasp had scratched his leg. It was minor, but that was still obviously a deal breaker. So as of tonight, I've replaced it with a generic $5 clasp that I had in my toolbox, just like Ruggs did:









Still head over heels for the watch otherwise. But I too would welcome the opportunity to buy an NTH signed clasp at whatever price you think is fair.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Likewise, I'm sure I could write a wall of text about the clear contradictions between what people profess to value (like, "originality") versus what they actually buy (more often than not, the "familiar")....


This is fairly prevalent and "proven" in the entertainment industry, especially in movies, music, and video games (I say proven because I haven't actually read the cited sources for the studies).

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Stay tuned.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Another 12-hour fan here. I don't dive. But I do travel . . .


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

ck2k01 said:


> Another 12-hour fan here. I don't dive. But I do travel . . .


We 12hr types congregate here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=1501202

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> It would be cool to see you do something with an Explorer type piece. Basic is tough for us WiSers around here but a basic stripped down explorer that can be a dressy type watch. That would be the one to blow your mind.
> 
> You know what...Eff that idea. I just came back from a 5 1/2" walk so a bit light headed. So perhaps a lack of blood to my head atm lol.


With the Seiko SARB & Alpinist series disco'd, the market is as ready for it as its ever going to get.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

LOL I meant 5 1/2 miles...hahahah

But now that you mentioned it...What ya up to later on big boi?



GlenRoiland said:


> Didn't want to go for 6 inches?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Looking forward to Glen and the ju jitsu redux. Better hide, Bobby. Glen dont take no mess. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

hwa said:


> Looking forward to Glen and the ju jitsu redux. Better hide, Bobby. Glen dont take no mess.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Legit lol on the crapper...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Thanks for the image, glen. Knew I could count on you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Mint Azores today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Coriolanus said:


> OK, after a little more wrist time, I have to agree with Ruggs on the clasp. I didn't find it uncomfortable, since the sharp edges (at least on mine) are on the ends and not in contact with my wrist. But this afternoon I noticed that after holding my 10 month-old son with my left arm, the clasp had scratched his leg. It was minor, but that was still obviously a deal breaker. So as of tonight, I've replaced it with a generic $5 clasp that I had in my toolbox, just like Ruggs did:
> 
> View attachment 13081333
> 
> ...


I've had several of these ratcheting clasps with sharp edges in the past; about 5 minutes with a very fine metal file will have you feeling like you have a custom finished, TO YOUR WRIST, clasp, that fits wonderfully. LOL.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

I keep telling myself that I could stop if I wanted to...


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Coriolanus said:


> View attachment 13084159
> 
> 
> I keep telling myself that I could stop if I wanted to...


That's freaking gorgeous

Looking back at this thread, I think it was your photography of your DR that convinced me to pick one up. I can only hope mine looks as nice on my wrist as yours does on yours, when it arrives!


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Finally got to pick up my Nacken. It's really beautiful. If I may say, at least for me, having an NTH is kinda like having a child - if you don't have your own, you think you know what it's like from the photos or seeing one in the wild, but actually having one is a world of difference that's hard to explain.

Disclaimer - not equating a watch to a child...tho if anyone is on to a trade for a Scorpene... 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm sure someone will say I'm a jerk for posting this, but I can't stop smiling...










Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

<- * Renames collection from "Steve McQueen Collection" to "Paul Newman Collection" :think:


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> <- * Renames collection from "Steve McQueen Collection" to "Paul Newman Collection" :think:


Lol! My dad was a huge sports car buff and a journalist, and loved to tell the embarrassing story about the time he interviewed Steve McQueen, and asked him about placing 2nd at LeMans. McQueen answered gruffly "That was Paul Newman!"


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

6 o clock date baby.
Perfect fit achieved.
Entire house smells like vanilla.
I love the watch! 
Perfect for my 7 inch wrist(but there are enough bracelet links to fit on my ankle)
It has all the pieces that I was looking for.
Great dial with not much writing, date, thin case, thin clasp, big crown (logo lines up too) so much lume, perfect size, great bracelet. 
Now pics:


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Here's my new Ghost Rider. Thanks, Doc.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

Anyone have pics of the new Nacken Modern blue with date?


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)




----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

DuckaDiesel said:


>


What strap is that?


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

JakeJD said:


> What strap is that?


Ndc mn strap from instagram. I bought it a few years ago. I think that jacko straps sells them now for twice the cost what I paid


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Yeah, I looked up those straps a couple of months ago when I saw them on here, cool but a bit speny

https://erikasoriginals.com


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


>


*Jealous*


----------



## soufiane (Jul 23, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



rbesass said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This one looks really good love it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Straight Banana (Dec 22, 2012)

Ah, I was already wondering why the Devilray topic was so quiet. Everybody is showing their new aquisition in the 'notice me senpai' topic it seems.

I must say I suffered from a light but extended case of buyers remorse after seeing the BlueRay in the first wristshots. Orange seemed such a safe bet at first. Those doubts were put to rest a few days ago. OrangeRay is a winner! Great wrist presence combined with lots of detail. The fact that it makes a great match with my favorite nato is a bonus. 

A few niggles. It's a sharp watch. Literally. The caseback is beautiful but feels quite sharp to the touch. As do the bracelet and clasp. It's noticeable when wearing but not a huge problem. The clasp feels like high quality but I miss the option to micro adjust without having to extend the thingamajig at the end.

My 2 eurocents..


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Ndc mn strap from instagram. I bought it a few years ago. I think that jacko straps sells them now for twice the cost what I paid


Thanks -- it looked black on my tablet when looking at it last night, but this morning on the monitor it's def green. In black it would look an awful lot like the fabric strap Tudor is offering with the Black Bay 58...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

While some combination of the Amphion case, case back, and bezel requires installation of leather natos via removal of the spring bars, precise positioning, and reinstallation of the spring bars (versus just sliding the strap in, which scratches the strap), I just adore the look. I recently picked up some higher end natos from WatchGecko and I can't praise them enough: a fantastic balance of price with a premium look and feel.

As it's warming up outside, I'm looking forward to eventual receipt of my Devil Ray--I want to add some chunk to my wimpy sized wrist to go with the short sleeves!


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



KiwiWomble said:


> Yeah, I looked up those straps a couple of months ago when I saw them on here, cool but a bit speny
> 
> https://erikasoriginals.com


They are very nice straps. Far superior to any NATO that I have. The slightly stretchy fabric is a real plus. Hardware is top notch

I'd rather have one of the MN straps at $75 than 3 NATOs at $25 each.

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



skipwilliams said:


> They are very nice straps. Far superior to any NATO that I have. The slightly stretchy fabric is a real plus. Hardware is top notch
> 
> I'd rather have one of the MN straps at $75 than 3 NATOs at $25 each.
> 
> ...


Great tip, thanks


----------



## I_am_Ned (Dec 21, 2017)

Contribution.









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Nacken Renegade, Tiburon, and Scorpene Blue. 

I suggest that you top up on your stock of excellent Tropic straps because I plan on getting some when the preorders open up.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> Nacken Renegade, Tiburon, and Scorpene Blue.
> 
> I suggest that you top up on your stock of excellent Tropic straps because I plan on getting some when the preorders open up.


Uhm...

My MOQ on straps is 300.

Are you ordering 300 straps?

No?

Then I think I'll let stock run out, and not worry too much about it.

There are 12 of them left. When they're gone, I doubt I'll re-order.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

A week on the wrist, and still loving everything about this watch. Just heavy enough to remind me that it's there, but very comfortable on the bracelet. Depending on how the light's hitting it, I'm never quite sure exactly what shade the turquoise is going to show me. But surprisingly, the thing that I find myself liking even more is the dual-indexed bezel with the DLC outer ring. It gives the watch that extra degree of distinction. Running -5 to -6 seconds/day, so not too shabby there. As previously discussed, the only sticking point was the sharp-edged clasp, and I've got a cheap generic clasp on it now while I wait for a better one from strapcode to arrive. All in though, for a watch that I pre-ordered for <$500, There's more value in this watch than I could reasonably expect. I'd buy the same watch again at current retail knowing now how much I like it.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

The DR looks great, and may go well beyond flavor of the month, but I can't swing it right now. I'm going with Fannum Phrydae todae.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

MikeyT said:


> The DR looks great, and may go well beyond flavor of the month, but I can't swing it right now. I'm going with Fannum Phrydae todae.


As much as Chris loves us telling him what to make next... For the love of all that is good and holy I need something explorer-ish before this divorce takes all my watch funds away.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I would suggest that you prepay Doc some funds so you'll have something post-divorce. ;-)


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

I think I’ve offered to do that in the past. Send $100/month his way to build up funds for his next release


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

I have most of his models. Still kind of looking for a Cerb


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

docvail said:


> Uhm...
> 
> My MOQ on straps is 300.
> 
> ...


Well, I've been eyeing your tropic for some time. Your stock should be 8 or less now. ;-)


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Well, I've been eyeing your tropic for some time. Your stock should be 8 or less now. ;-)


Seven now......


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Phantom ghost edition today









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I love my DR so much I am thinking of sending ya a few Toronto made ciders. Not sure if the border guards would like that much thou.









Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ojibway Bob said:


> I love my DR so much I am thinking of sending ya a few Toronto made ciders. Not sure if the border guards would like that much thou.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Toronto? Sounds cold and dark up there. DevilRay likes the Florida sun, just ask her!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Please stop posting pictures of the Turquoise DR. My orange DR is getting jealous. 

Seriously, that color looks great. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

hawkeye86 said:


> Please stop posting pictures of the Turquoise DR. My orange DR is getting jealous.
> 
> Seriously, that color looks great.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry, couldn't resist.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

hawkeye86 said:


> Please stop posting pictures of the Turquoise DR. My orange DR is getting jealous.
> 
> Seriously, that color looks great.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I realize that I'm on the cusp of spamming the thread lately, so today I refrained from posting my beach sunrise WRUW pics here.

Truthfully, if not for the fact that I own a Doxa, I'd have gone for the orange. It still looks damn good.

Of course... there's no reason you can't have twins. I think there are a few flippers for sale on the forum still, and Doc should have more on the 15th.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

SteamJ said:


> Sorry, couldn't resist.
> 
> View attachment 13098611


...ok, FINE THEN:


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


>


Nice shot. Looks like one of my photos


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

GlenRoiland said:


> Nice shot. Looks like one of my photos


That's just what I said when I took it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

There's no finer green dial.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Coriolanus said:


> ...ok, FINE THEN:
> 
> View attachment 13098621


Wise guys... I may have to lock one up before they're hard to get. I've spent a bunch on 3 watches in the past week. One more wont hurt too bad

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Please, could you stop posting pics of the bluquoise DR for a while? Mine is still blocked by the customs, not moving and not with me albeit tantalisingly close...
Arghhhh damn postal services and customs, I'm sooooooo impatient to wear it!

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Got a new camera to play with.


----------



## Straight Banana (Dec 22, 2012)

Jup, also fits sharkmesh.


----------



## dpage (Dec 24, 2010)

Coriolanus said:


> I realize that I'm on the cusp of spamming the thread lately, so today I refrained from posting my beach sunrise WRUW pics here.
> 
> Truthfully, if not for the fact that I own a Doxa, I'd have gone for the orange. It still looks damn good.
> 
> Of course... there's no reason you can't have twins. I think there are a few flippers for sale on the forum still, and Doc should have more on the 15th.


So what beach is that?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Straight Banana said:


> Jup, also fits sharkmesh.


That looks fantastic: I'll definitely be rocking that look on occasion. Thanks for posting.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

dpage said:


> So what beach is that?


Canova Beach, on the Atlantic coast. I try to get over there at least least one morning on the weekends to watch the sun rise.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Santa Fe soaks up the sun...










... and spits it back out at ya!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Straight Banana said:


> Jup, also fits sharkmesh.


Oh that looks good!

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Straight Banana said:


> Jup, also fits sharkmesh.





skunkworks said:


> Oh that looks good!
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


Weird, I wonder why I can't see this picture...


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

JakeJD said:


> Weird, I wonder why I can't see this picture...


Let me try for ya...

With some bonus doc full lume









Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Ghost Rider tonight









Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Does it make me look bad if I admit I think calling it the Ghost Rider was genius?

I can't help it - that logo, the caseback design, it's too perfect.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> Does it make me look bad if I admit I think calling it the Ghost Rider was genius?
> 
> I can't help it - that logo, the caseback design, it's too perfect.


Negative, however we are all eagerly awaiting what is on ready five so we can nose dive our wallets and split s our marriages.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

docvail said:


> Does it make me look bad if I admit I think calling it the Ghost Rider was genius?
> 
> I can't help it - that logo, the caseback design, it's too perfect.


"Ah, don't underestimate yourself; You're an immense slouch."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Looking forward to a limited edition Goat Rider model.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Looking forward to a limited edition Goat Rider model.


The Ghost Rider was a limited edition model, it was a Phantom LE.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> X2-Elijah said:
> 
> 
> > Looking forward to a limited edition *Goat *Rider model.
> ...


Reading is FUNdamental!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> The Ghost Rider was a limited edition model, it was a Phantom LE.


That's alright, I'm okay with Phantom Goats too.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Looking forward to a limited edition Goat Rider model.


Design inspiration









(I honestly just love that this gif exists)


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Looking forward to a limited edition Goat Rider model.


I'm picturing a shot for shot remake of Top Gun with Jim Breuer as Maverick doing goat boy.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh. These puns are baaaaaaddd.


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Here's a thought.

The NTH "Santa" subs are, in fact, special Star Wars editions. Santa Cruz is the Jedi watch, and Santa Fe is the Sith (or Stormtrooper) watch. Think Anakin/Vader, or Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Here's a thought.
> 
> The NTH "Santa" subs are, in fact, special Star Wars editions. Santa Cruz is the Jedi watch, and Santa Fe is the Sith (or Stormtrooper) watch. Think Anakin/Vader, or Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I gotta send a shout out with mad props to my watchmaker. 

I got an email from someone with a support request this past Sunday. I told him to send the watch back to us on Monday. My watchmaker got it in hand today, and already has it sorted. It'll be back in the mail to the guy tomorrow.

Four days, from request to here ya go. 

Haters can bite me.


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> I gotta send a shout out with mad props to my watchmaker.
> 
> I got an email from someone with a support request this past Sunday. I told him to send the watch back to us on Monday. My watchmaker got it in hand today, and already has it sorted. It'll be back in the mail to the guy tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Because you lack the ever honored "heritage" sir. Add that to the equation and people will have the privilege of a 6+ month wait time.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Because you lack the ever honored "heritage" sir. Add that to the equation and people will have the privilege of a 6+ month wait time.


Right?

It's hilarious sometimes, how wrong some folks are.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Initial impressions. Light, fairly thin, good legibility. I usually buy watches with a date complication but this works well without it. I'm a bracelet guy but I couldn't get the screws loosened, not even turned at all. Using the smallest screwdriver I've got, it worked fine on my Devilray. But I like the strap plus it's a bonus, I didn't know it came with one until I opened the box.

Hard to believe only 25 people bought one. I was on the fence at first but am very glad I bought one. Blasphemy I know but I think I may like this more than my Devilray. First impression anyways.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> View attachment 13108273
> View attachment 13108277
> 
> 
> ...


FAIRLY thin?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I gotta send a shout out with mad props to my watchmaker.
> 
> I got an email from someone with a support request this past Sunday. I told him to send the watch back to us on Monday. My watchmaker got it in hand today, and already has it sorted. It'll be back in the mail to the guy tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Thats a lot of bites.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Nikita70 said:


> Initial impressions. Light, fairly thin, good legibility. I usually buy watches with a date complication but this works well without it. I'm a bracelet guy but I couldn't get the screws loosened, not even turned at all. Using the smallest screwdriver I've got, it worked fine on my Devilray. But I like the strap plus it's a bonus, I didn't know it came with one until I opened the box.
> 
> Hard to believe only 25 people bought one. I was on the fence at first but am very glad I bought one. Blasphemy I know but I think I may like this more than my Devilray. First impression anyways.


And WatchRecon . . . engaged.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Thats a lot of bites.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk







Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Fairly thin meaning not too thick. I don’t have my calipers handy but it is thinner than the Devilray, my Doxa, my Borealis, and my Rolex. Not thin like a quartz dress watch but for a 1000’ diving watch it is fairly thin. My guess is around 12mm. Doc can tell us if he is so inclined.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Doc, I want you to take two weeks off and then just quit altogether. As far as coming up with *****in’ watch designs. You are costing me too much money.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Bluuuuue










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> Fairly thin meaning not too thick. I don't have my calipers handy but it is thinner than the Devilray, my Doxa, my Borealis, and my Rolex. Not thin like a quartz dress watch but for a 1000' diving watch it is fairly thin. My guess is around 12mm. Doc can tell us if he is so inclined.


The Nazario?

It's an NTH Sub. Last I checked, they were still 11.5mm thick.

The waffle dials are zero calories.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> Doc, I want you to take two weeks off and then just quit altogether. As far as coming up with *****in' watch designs. You are costing me too much money.


I checked with my wife. She said I had to keep working.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> Fairly thin meaning not too thick. I don't have my calipers handy but it is thinner than the Devilray, my Doxa, my Borealis, and my Rolex. Not thin like a quartz dress watch but for a 1000' diving watch it is fairly thin. My guess is around 12mm. Doc can tell us if he is so inclined.


I was just "busting chops" because at 11.5 they were the thinnest automatic 300m dive watch in production in the WORLD for a while, and they still remain one of the thinnest 300 m auto watches in the world regardless of brand, etc...


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I’m used to having my chops busted lol. I thought I remembered reading it was 11.5 mm but didn’t want to quote that in case I might be wrong. Waffle dial is also really neat.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

rpm1974 said:


> Bluuuuue
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, bluuuee!


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> Right?
> 
> It's hilarious sometimes, how wrong some folks are.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


I gotta get sh!z seriously wrong once or twice before I learn so here's to hoping.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

MikeyT said:


> Yes, bluuuee!


You know, I'd like to throw on my Spectre II and join this party, but I still can't bring myself to swap out the DR. So instead, how about...

...Bluuuuurquoise?


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Nikita70 said:


> View attachment 13108277
> 
> 
> Initial impressions. Light, fairly thin, good legibility. I usually buy watches with a date complication but this works well without it. I'm a bracelet guy but I couldn't get the screws loosened, not even turned at all. Using the smallest screwdriver I've got, it worked fine on my Devilray. But I like the strap plus it's a bonus, I didn't know it came with one until I opened the box.
> ...


Mine just rolled in last night. I was also on the fence, but have a bit of a California dial addiction, so it was easy enough to talk myself into it given a deadline and the low production numbers. No time to adjust the bracelet yet; maybe this weekend. I also got a new Tisell vintage sub this week, and the bracelet screws were all loose enough to give another quarter-turn - I believe too tight is likely better than too loose!


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

rpm1974 said:


> Santa Fe soaks up the sun...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That Jubilee looks great. Where did you get it? Is it a Seiko?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

Newly arrived from the good folks at NTH. It's a very good looking piece. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Elbakalao said:


> That Jubilee looks great. Where did you get it? Is it a Seiko?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I actually bought it from Amazon for a whopping $7 just to try out the look. It fits so well I rarely take it off the Santa Fe.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

rpm1974 said:


> I actually bought it from Amazon for a whopping $7 just to try out the look. It fits so well I rarely take it off the Santa Fe.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Whaaaaaaat?!?!? Any chance you could point me to the seller. That's flippin amazing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gorem (Apr 22, 2016)

My First NTH


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

MaxIcon said:


> Mine just rolled in last night. I was also on the fence, but have a bit of a California dial addiction, so it was easy enough to talk myself into it given a deadline and the low production numbers. No time to adjust the bracelet yet; maybe this weekend. I also got a new Tisell vintage sub this week, and the bracelet screws were all loose enough to give another quarter-turn - I believe too tight is likely better than too loose!
> 
> View attachment 13109961


OK, not an NTH, but when it showed up yesterday, I realized I received 2 California dial watches with cathedral hands in the same week (along with a Tisell vintage sub a few days ago).

I'm starting to worry a little about this watch obsession thing. I'll revisit if watch #4 arrives this week.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

I've got one of these coming for my turquoise DevilRay. I think it'll be a pretty close match.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Boom:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

hwa said:


> Boom:


Moob?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Moob?


Is it sdrawkcab day?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

hwa said:


> Is it sdrawkcab day?


awh sey.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I like it but honestly, I am scared of the Wraith of Doc with all these pics of his DR without his accompanying bands.



SteamJ said:


> I've got one of these coming for my turquoise DevilRay. I think it'll be a pretty close match.
> 
> View attachment 13112575


It will not be your last...We welcome you to NTH club lol.



Gorem said:


> My First NTH
> View attachment 13112119


Come on Bro share the info..



rpm1974 said:


> I actually bought it from Amazon for a whopping $7 just to try out the look. It fits so well I rarely take it off the Santa Fe.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I like it but honestly, I am scared of the *Wraith* of Doc...


Damn. Didn't know he had his own personal banshee to haunt the button pushers. 










Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

damn.....Now we have to offer a virgin sacrifice...DO NOT LOOK directly at him. Thou banshee is a cool name for a watch. Has that been used?



Disneydave said:


> Damn. Didn't know he had his own personal banshee to haunt the button pushers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

That looks like Ray.......


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Devil Ray.......


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Congrats 


docvail said:


> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Doc Hollywood


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Never would have thought TGV to be the Mobb Deep type


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Come on Bro share the info..





Elbakalao said:


> Whaaaaaaat?!?!? Any chance you could point me to the seller. That's flippin amazing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It looks like the listing is no longer valid. I see some for $15 that are very similar in the way they're presented. Might be the same maker? Just search 20mm jubilee on Amazon. Good luck!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gorem (Apr 22, 2016)

Ojibway Bob said:


> It will not be your last...We welcome you to NTH club lol.
> ..


thanks .. I'm impressed by the quality and built of devil ray. ​therefore now looking at orthos.. lol .... look interesting .


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)




----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Think this might be the first NTH with 12H bezel


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Seems so, yeah.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Antilles and DevilRay both have 12 hour bezels.

It is the first NTH Sub with a 12 hour bezel, though.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I gotta admit, this visual from the reveal video made me laugh 









"If in doubt, always stick in a random doofy eagle!"
Aaah, we really do need more eagles in horology.

(edit - just to make sure - this was in no way a serious dig, just a light-hearted joke. Imo this TGV collab is great for both Doc and TGV, and the design altogether makes quite a lot of sense. Seeing how there's so much insane negativity on f71 over last few days (like... wtf?), felt like I had to add this disclaimer just to be safe).


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> Think this might be the first NTH with 12H bezel


Awesome!! It's like doc read my mind. Was literally about to mod myself an skx with 12h bezel and type-A flieger dial. 
This will be impossible to pass on...

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Antilles and DevilRay both have 12 hour bezels.
> 
> It is the first NTH Sub with a 12 hour bezel, though.


When will it be available? No info on your insta and website (curious where yankee got the pic?)

Edit: Never mind, spotted the urban gentry on the dial, and found out on my own. Pre-order placed... My bank account thanks you.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> When will it be available? No info on your insta and website (curious where yankee got the pic?)
> 
> Edit: Never mind, spotted the urban gentry on the dial, and found out on my own. Pre-order placed... My bank account thanks you.
> 
> Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


https://mailchi.mp/janistrading/urban-gentry-special-edition-nth-sub-the-catalina

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

yankeexpress said:


>


Doc, you should have named it "The Dafoe". Just sayin'.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Happy Cinco de Mayo, all!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

The Catalina does look nice, but where and when are the rest of the NTH subs? Open for preorder?


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Finally cleared customs. Awesome again doc. So glad I went with the turquoise. The orange prototype was brilliant but this is a different class.









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Great pics of Devil Rays guys. I see mostly blue on this thread. Id like to see more of the production sunray black if they're out there...looking forward to mine...

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> I gotta send a shout out with mad props to my watchmaker.
> 
> I got an email from someone with a support request this past Sunday. I told him to send the watch back to us on Monday. My watchmaker got it in hand today, and already has it sorted. It'll be back in the mail to the guy tomorrow.
> 
> ...


that guy may have been me lol

Thanks for the quick service


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Took a bunch of DR photos today - no black dial here though...


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

When you post a WTB ad thinking you'd get many "buy mine" offers at outrageous prices but what you get is a reasonable-almost-too-low offer, you take advantage of that sh*t...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

househalfman said:


> When you post a WTB ad thinking you'd get many "buy mine" offers at outrageous prices but what you get is a reasonable-almost-too-low offer, you take advantage of that sh*t...


Slurp it up, that is a bargain beauty for sure, congrats and well done.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Beautiful. Are the bezel markers yellow? I didn't realize that before, or else it's just your picture.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Nacken was with me to Cuba for a week.
(Yes I butchered a good cigar)


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Mine also cleared the customs on Friday. I should have it at least this Monday!
Glad that you like the bluquoise, it's also the colour of mine!


arrvoo said:


> Finally cleared customs. Awesome again doc. So glad I went with the turquoise. The orange prototype was brilliant but this is a different class.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Toonces said:


> Beautiful. Are the bezel markers yellow? I didn't realize that before, or else it's just your picture.


if memory serves, it's the lume doing its daylight thing. the lume matches the dial nicely until you turn on the sun.


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

Inside the movie theater...


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> I gotta admit, this visual from the reveal video made me laugh
> 
> View attachment 13113857
> 
> ...


In case you wonder why they always show eagles from the side:


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

I swapped the nato for a Zealande rubber strap I had bought for my Seamaster before I sold it. The fit is great. There's a little gap but once on wrist, it tightens up against the case nicely.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Yesterday's outing with my offspring


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Antilles and DevilRay both have 12 hour bezels.
> 
> It is the first NTH Sub with a 12 hour bezel, though.


And so does the Phantom.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

You know... I shld have just gone ahead withy Devilray preorder a few months back. Kicking myself now. 

Wouldn't want to miss the next round of NTH subs though. When are the preorders opening again?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> And so does the Phantom.


True, but it's an L&H model, not an NTH.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jamesezra said:


> You know... I shld have just gone ahead withy Devilray preorder a few months back. Kicking myself now.
> 
> Wouldn't want to miss the next round of NTH subs though. When are the preorders opening again?


I haven't announced it yet.

But when I do, trust me, you won't miss it.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> I haven't announced it yet.
> 
> But when I do, trust me, you won't miss it.


That would be awesome. Some spaces in the watch box waiting for them!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

A sunny, smiley watch for a sunny, smiley Bank Holiday; an over-extended pub fest is deffo on today's agenda:









Cheers (hic!!),

Alan


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Ragl said:


> A sunny, smiley watch for a sunny, smiley Bank Holiday; an over-extended pub fest is deffo on today's agenda:
> 
> View attachment 13118747
> 
> ...


I wasn't a WIS yet when these watches were released, and therefore missed my chance on them; and every time someone posts a picture of one, I kick myself for it. That is seriously one of the coolest looking pieces that I'm aware of.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Pakz said:


> Mine also cleared the customs on Friday. I should have it at least this Monday!
> Glad that you like the bluquoise, it's also the colour of mine!
> 
> Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


Totally depressed!
Took the day off to receive the watch. Supposedly the postman didn't find me (I was here all morning... ) didn't even let a notice. I'll have to have my wife pick the parcel up on Wednesday (tomorrow's a bank holiday)... and pay taxes AND handling fees. I just soooooo wish I could tell them "you guys have been awful, I'm not paying your stupid handling fee". Thing is, if I try I won't get my Devil Ray.

So. Thanks to the huuuuge incompetence and laziness of the French Post employees, I'll have my watch Wednesday evening... at best.

Gutted.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> A sunny, smiley watch for a sunny, smiley Bank Holiday; an over-extended pub fest is deffo on today's agenda:
> 
> View attachment 13118747
> 
> ...


How scary is it that I know the underlying pic shows a Bremont, the new S500?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> How scary is it that I know the underlying pic shows a Bremont, the new S500?


Nothing to fear here Doc, this A3 sized magazine dropped thro' my mail box a few weeks ago:









A 30 page hero award ceremony of Bremont's World conquering watches...... yeah, right.

I don't know how they tracked me down as a poss wearer of Antarctica crushing, 'plane crashing triple-tickle watches, but the mag does make an excellent backdrop for photos of my cherished desirables, plus it is a first class mouse-pad, ta muchly you Bremont boys!!

As for their watches, they are firmly and securely in Room 101 along with Rolex & Patek......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

mattm0691 said:


> I wasn't a WIS yet when these watches were released, and therefore missed my chance on them; and every time someone posts a picture of one, I kick myself for it. That is seriously one of the coolest looking pieces that I'm aware of.


Can't help but be in complete agreement; much like yourself, I missed this one first time around, but managed to spear this mint Commander over here in Europe last year. It is seriously cool and it really does make me smile.

They do come up for sale occasionally here:

https://www.watchpatrol.net/?query=Lew+&+Huey

and here:

https://www.watchrecon.com/?query=Lew+&+Huey&last_days=0&since_timestamp=1525550280

Well worth watching out for, or better still, set an alert on the respective pages, best of luck!!

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Nothing to fear here Doc, this A3 sized magazine dropped thro' my mail box a few weeks ago:
> 
> View attachment 13119589
> 
> ...


What kills me is that I'd be crucified if I did something like that.

There are at least 4, if not 5 different fonts in use for the numbers (bezel, chapter ring, primary numbers, depth rating text), counting the date wheel.









And yes, I realize picking on the date wheel is really nitpicky, and I've never re-printed them just to match the other fonts in use, but I sell watches for 1/10 what a Bremont cost. They can reprint date wheels to match dial numbering.

Junghans does it in the Max Bill line, for half the cost of a Bremont, and for that, we thank them.

But if you're not going to reprint the date wheels, c'mon, pick one or two fonts, and stick with them.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> What kills me is that I'd be crucified if I did something like that.
> 
> There are at least 4, if not 5 different fonts in use for the numbers (bezel, chapter ring, primary numbers, depth rating text), counting the date wheel.
> 
> ...


The irony is that you are being metaphorically crucified over on the "Let's chat about Catalina" thread for that very reason - tossers....

Anyway, that Bremont is a total bland-pex, whilst running my mouse over the picture I can now see what you are referring to, how could anyone..... oh, they read the nonse prop and believed it - more tossers......

In the meantime...

祝你旅途愉快

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> The irony is that you are being metaphorically crucified over on the "Let's chat about Catalina" thread for that very reason - tossers....
> 
> Anyway, that Bremont is a total bland-pex, whilst running my mouse over the picture I can now see what you are referring to, how could anyone..... oh, they read the nonse prop and believed it - more tossers......
> 
> ...


Sometimes it's the little things that hit me in the feels.

I can't think about Junghans / Max Bill without thinking of Capucho, who was the first guy I knew on here to get one, and the guy who pointed out to me the Bauhaus font on the date wheel, which takes me back to my one college architecture course.

I somehow remember a good bit of the content, despite it being an 8am class taught by a guy with sub-woofer voice - deep and monotone, like one of those womb-sound generators they play for preemies in incubators.

Both my grandfathers will builders, and I've always loved architecture as a sub-genre of design. I loved the stuff that came out of the Bauhaus movement. The thought that went into that date wheel on the Max Bill is such a small thing, but fantastic in how it shows someone, somewhere, at some time, sweat such a small detail in their quest for perfection.

Then that miscreant Capucho got one. Max Bill is probably rolling in his grave.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Azores tonight









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

SteamJ said:


>


Yeah...

Gunnahaftadodat.

Where'd you order that from again?


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> Yeah...
> 
> Gunnahaftadodat.
> 
> Where'd you order that from again?


It's a double stitched perlon from Clockwork Synergy but I ordered it from Amazon.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Waffle dial Wednesday










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)




----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Been a week and I can’t seem to take the Nazario off my wrist. Other than to sleep. Well done Doc.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Eventually the customs did release my Devil Ray, then the post didn't do its stuff right and I had to chase the package, and got hold of it 20 days after its arrived in the country...
But it's a beauty and looking at it makes me forget all the hassle to get it!









Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

OK fellow NTH fans, after a short delay from the moment that I first got my hands on the Devil Ray, here's my brief thoughts on the watch, and on Doc's customer service. I received the DR a few weeks ago, and my initial impressions were favorable, and mostly in line with what I expected. It's a large(ish), heavy, bold tool watch. My particular example, however, had a minor QC issue which made my totally falling in love with it a little difficult. I won't go into details as to what it was here, because I don't want to put Doc on blast for something he really had no control over.. Just suffice it to say, that it was something very minor, and something which would probably not ever be noticed by someone who didn't have OCD as strong as mine, lol. Anyways, I dropped a service request on the NTH website, and Doc arranged for the watch to be shipped back very promptly. I was actually pleasantly surprised by this- expecting to be told basically that my issue was a non-problem, and to go screw. I never got any impression that my problem was perceived as petty, in our email correspondence, though. 

Anyways, Doc arranged for a pre-paid label to be sent to me, and the watch was gone for a total of maybe a week and a half. I didn't keep track super precisely, and I'm too lazy to check lol, but it wasn't too long at all. The piece just arrived back to me today,and after eagerly taking it out of the USPS box, I examined with trepidation the areas which had given me trouble before. Nothing. Not a thing. The watch is now, as close as I can tell, flawless. Not that it was exactly flawful before lol, but all my concerns were taken care of precisely how I would have liked. So, as a prelude to my brief impression of the rest of the watch, I just wanted to post this testimonial as to the efficacy and professionalism of Doc's operation. Very well done, sir. 

Now, the watch. The first thing that will strike one handling a DR for the first time may well be the lume. Even in a well lit room. This ..... is seriously nuclear- far beyond any Seiko I own, or my PO. Just about everything that can be lumed, is. The crown, in NTH tradition; the multipurpose bezel insert, and of course, the hands and dial. It is fabulously legible.

The case is very nice. Between this and the case on the Nacken that I own, it's a little hard to believe that Doc is essentially a layman in the realm of watch design, and didn't come out of a big Swiss company or something. It's very nicely executed, with gorgeous curvature- perfect for me, because I have smaller wrists. This watch, though certainly on the larger side, doesn't overpower. I especially like that it partially shrouds the bezel. I admire this on my Sumo too, because it seems like a very practical, toolish design feature. It has a nice polished strip running down the side, which serves to visually shrink the large case.

I don't know much about the STP movement inside, but I understand that it's an ETA clone, and that's what it seems like. It feels and sounds like one whilst handwinding. I'll report back re. accuracy later.

The dial is beautiful. My example has the charcoal/black sunburst- it looks great in direct sunlight, where the colors can shift a bit; and the blue hue of the AR adds a little bit of extra depth to the color. I like it quite a bit. I also like the inclusion of the depth meter ring around the outside of the chapter ring, though I doubt I'll ever actually use it for its intended purpose. The hands serve their intended purpose well, of being very distinct from one another. I don't usually go for garish colors on the minute hand, but I'm fine with it on my Squale 1521, and it works well with the theme here, too. I also particularly like the orange tip on the seconds hand. 

The bracelet is nice. Certainly not a type that I've experienced before, but it seems that it's meant to homage a doxa-type bracelet, and I have no experience with Doxa. I know there's alot of bellyaching about the clasp. It DOES have sharp edges. Those also ARE easy to fix if you have a file. I'll add my own gripe though that I'm not crazy about this type of clasp in general. They strike me as overly long due to the ratcheting mechanism, and don't offer proper (IMO) micro adjustment capabilities- you actually have to unratchet the aft part of the clasp a little, making it look a little funny on wrist. Minor gripes, and over all I don't really care. I like the design of the clasp insofar as it is a simple 2 button push deployant- feels a little nicer than the fliplock type. I also like the way that it has a central rectangular ridge in the middle- it almost feels like a Sub style Glidelock clasp from the outside. So, some good, some bad on the clasp- overall, it's fine.

Next gripe. I actually love the design of the bezel insert. I didn't have any watches with a 12 hour insert before this, and I love the utility of it. At the same time, I use a timing bezel for lots of stuff. So, having both is fantastic to me. my only complaint is that the circle which serves as the "pearl" and which would be used to time, gets lost in all the other noise. Especially if you're using it at night- the pearl does not jump out at you as it might if it were the only lumed part. My other confession is that I don't actually like fully lumed bezels, for that same reason, so feel free to take my whining with a grain of salt . I also understand that what I have a problem with is a necessary side effect of the other things about the bezel that I DO like, so I'm not really saying it's bad- it's just an observation.

That's about all I have right now... I'll probably post more as I live with the watch more, and I notice more little things about it. Until then, thanks so much Doc for the great CS, and thanks WIS for reading!


----------



## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

mattm0691 said:


> I especially like that it partially shrouds the bezel. I admire this on my Sumo too, because it seems like a very practical, toolish design feature.


Interesting that you find that the shrouding of the bezel by the case as a toolish design feature. I've always thought it was somewhat opposite in the case-shrouding watches that I own in that it streamlines, sort of hiding, some of the bulk that comes from the bezel, and makes it look less toolish and slightly more dressy. (This is as opposed to the shroud of, say, the Tuna, where it is a purely functional attachment).

I won't disagree with you that it is a very practical feature!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Spectre Fireball on new shoes from Sophie at cheapestnatostraps










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Iandk said:


> Interesting that you find that the shrouding of the bezel by the case as a toolish design feature. I've always thought it was somewhat opposite in the case-shrouding watches that I own in that it streamlines, sort of hiding, some of the bulk that comes from the bezel, and makes it look less toolish and slightly more dressy. (This is as opposed to the shroud of, say, the Tuna, where it is a purely functional attachment).
> 
> I won't disagree with you that it is a very practical feature!


I'm definitely open to the possibility that I'm wrong lol, and maybe Doc can tell us the reasoning behind it, but I always thought it was to help and protect the bezel from blows or shock


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cerb tonight....









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> I'm definitely open to the possibility that I'm wrong lol, and maybe Doc can tell us the reasoning behind it, but I always thought it was to help and protect the bezel from blows or shock


In the case of the tuna-can type shrouds, I can't imagine the purpose is anything other than to prevent the bezel from being inadvertently moved.

In the case of the Sumo, perhaps it's the same.

In the case of the DevilRay, I just thought it would be a cool thing to do, because I liked how it looked on the Sumo, and how other watches with recessed bezels look. I like to challenge myself to do things that we haven't done before, especially if they seem difficult to pull off well.

Sometimes, it doesn't work out. Sometimes, we stick the landing.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

mattm0691 said:


> I admire this on my Sumo too, because it seems like a very practical, toolish design feature. It has a nice polished strip running down the side, which serves to visually shrink the large case.
> .
> !


Hmm. I think you might be referring to the Monster instead of the Sumo?

Btw, I appreciate your inputs on the DR. Makes me want it even more!


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

jamesezra said:


> Hmm. I think you might be referring to the Monster instead of the Sumo?
> 
> Btw, I appreciate your inputs on the DR. Makes me want it even more!


No; the monster has a shrouded bezel as well, but the one on the Sumo is IMHO more similar to the DR


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Apologies my friend. I stand corrected.

My thoughts about your inputs are still valid thought 



mattm0691 said:


> No; the monster has a shrouded bezel as well, but the one on the Sumo is IMHO more similar to the DR
> 
> View attachment 13128809


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




----------



## watchustebbing (Nov 26, 2016)

Silver DevilRay reporting. Don't see many silvers around.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I've been trying out all of the various seatbelt natos lately. I'm really enjoying this C&B on the Amphion. Looking forward to an incoming Santa Fe and Devil Ray, and on the lookout for a Nazario.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

ck2k01 said:


> I've been trying out all of the various seatbelt natos lately. I'm really enjoying this C&B on the Amphion. Looking forward to an incoming Santa Fe and Devil Ray, and on the lookout for a Nazario.
> 
> View attachment 13129261


Don't know if you've tried them yet, but IMO the blushark alpha lines are the best quality and value straps... I've tried just about every brand on the market lol, and that's my conclusion so far


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> Don't know if you've tried them yet, but IMO the blushark alpha lines are the best quality and value straps... I've tried just about every brand on the market lol, and that's my conclusion so far


Try Cincy Strap Works premium SB straps. Same quality, thickness and hardware as the BluShark, but $6 less.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Try Cincy Strap Works premium SB straps. Same quality, thickness and hardware as the BluShark, but $6 less.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Tried 'em both, in addition to the WatchGecko Seatbelt. I'm liking them all/the slight variety (ordered each in a different color/pattern, and they all have their slight nuances). Just waiting for brushed 20mm PhenomeNatos to come back in stock as (1) I hear great things and (2) for completionist purposes.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I went to go buy the Black Bay 58 today. It's, IMO, a beautiful watch. While looking at it, I compared it to the modern blue Nacken I was wearing. I now have $3.3k for future NTH/L&H releases (especially the subs) and my blue Nacken. Those NTH sub cases and the thinness of the overall profile are unparalleled.

BTW, in case anyone missed it, this had thread of the year written all over it until it got shut down - https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4703691&share_fid=13788&share_type=t. I feel like the customer service form at NTH recently got filled out...
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

related to that thread... the recent surge of haters is really odd. Has there been a chlorine leak in some water supply or something?


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

DOC, HOW DARE YOU MAKE SUCH A VERSATILE AND COMFORTABLE WATCH! 
I seriously can't stop wearing this and with the summer heat approaching it is perfect for NATO straps!


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> related to that thread... the recent surge of haters is really odd. Has there been a chlorine leak in some water supply or something?


Have noticed too... Somehow doc hit a sensitive spot a week or two ago, but I don't know where or when or how it happened...

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## I prefer pi. (May 4, 2018)

I think there is a revolt beginning against what some see as bas horlogerie.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

A revolt? oh my! *flutter flutter* *swoon*


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Oh the Irony! 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Hey, if someone doesn't like a watch there's nothing I can do to make them start liking it. But man alive, if you're into divers and not giving that Nacken a try, you're really missing out on a very stylish and comfortable watch.

I have plenty of chunky dive watches. The last two weeks I've been wearing my SKX and a vintagey Citizen Aqualand with that big ole depth gauge sticking out the side. Great watches, but sometimes a guy just wants something a little less bulky on the wrist. The Nacken is just perfect for that.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Every now and then, a few individuals decide that their views are the only answer, and they appoint themselves "Guardian of the Galaxy." They show up in Quartz, G-Shock, Chinese, Russian, Affordable, Dive, and other forums, usually with a pronouncement that "everyone else is doing it wrong...."

Quartz has no soul! Chinese are all copies! Russians break! G-Shock are too big! You can't wear dive watches with a suit!

And you MUST agree with them. You're not allowed to like what you like. If you like something else, then you are ruining their hobby. Rather than frequent the sections of the forum where others agree with them, they venture out into the other sections with religious fervor and start arguments. Happens all the time, sadly.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Spectacular sunrise this morning, plus obligatory beach pic of DR.
















Been wearing this for three weeks straight now, and still going strong. Every morning as I get ready for work, I briefly contemplate my watch box and consider switching out... then walk away with the DR still on for another day.

I'm sure I'll get bored of this watch eventually. I'm sure I'll find something wrong with it eventually. I just haven't yet.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ Fantastic! That Devil Ray sure is a beautiful watch.

Melbourne was on my extremely short list as my next destination, but work decided to take me to the west coast instead. That sure seems like a beautiful part of the country...and certainly warmer than Rhode Island today.


----------



## kirkryanm (Jan 5, 2016)

I assume we’re still on track for the mid, to late May delivery with the rest of the DRs? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

I prefer pi. said:


> I think there is a revolt beginning against what some see as bas horlogerie.


what do you mean, bas horologie? Do you mean like NTH or micros in particular? I don't think anyone here considers NTH the be "bas"- in fact, they're considerably more exclusive in terms of ownership than rolex or even probably patek


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Enjoying the Barracuda while watching the Gira d'Italia bike race today.










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Oh man... I saw this at WatchWonderland today and was quoted USD632!

How much was it when you ordered it?



skipwilliams said:


> Enjoying the Barracuda while watching the Gira d'Italia bike race today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Oh man... I saw this at WatchWonderland today and was quoted USD632!

How much was it when you ordered it?



skipwilliams said:


> Enjoying the Barracuda while watching the Gira d'Italia bike race today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

jamesezra said:


> Oh man... I saw this at WatchWonderland today and was quoted USD632!
> 
> How much was it when you ordered it?


That's about what I paid for mine directly from Doc.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> Have noticed too... Somehow doc hit a sensitive spot a week or two ago, but I don't know where or when or how it happened...
> 
> Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


Either:
A. Doc steals elderly peoples canes when they are not looking.

Or:

B. People are a one egg short of a dozen.

Because making the STRONG effort to bash (not just disagree, critique or dislike) around here makes no sense.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mattm0691 said:


> Don't know if you've tried them yet, but IMO the blushark alpha lines are the best quality and value straps... I've tried just about every brand on the market lol, and that's my conclusion so far


Second this, alpha Slim's are just about perfect. You get that sweet shiny weave pattern without 4mm of strap under your watch, like rest of the seatbelts out there.

But yeah, hwa is right, for what most seatbelts cost, Erikas is the way to go!

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Im telling you guys, alphasharks are too thick, but that’s beside the point. Erika’s are worth the coin. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

ToxicNato's Shiznit is among the best SB natos imo...


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Toonces said:


> ^ Fantastic! That Devil Ray sure is a beautiful watch.
> 
> Melbourne was on my extremely short list as my next destination, but work decided to take me to the west coast instead. That sure seems like a beautiful part of the country...and certainly warmer than Rhode Island today.


It's nice here. I'm a pasty widwesterner, and never had much interest in the beach or the heat. But work brought me here, and I didn't fight off happiness when it snuck up on me. The economy around here is great, what with the commercial space program ramping way up (I have a great few of the launches from my back porch), and there's plenty to do between here and Orlando.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> I went to go buy the Black Bay 58 today. It's, IMO, a beautiful watch. While looking at it, I compared it to the modern blue Nacken I was wearing. I now have $3.3k for future NTH/L&H releases (especially the subs) and my blue Nacken. Those NTH sub cases and the thinness of the overall profile are unparalleled.
> 
> BTW, in case anyone missed it, this had thread of the year written all over it until it got shut down - https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4703691&share_fid=13788&share_type=t. I feel like the customer service form at NTH recently got filled out...
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


That thread had potential.


X2-Elijah said:


> related to that thread... the recent surge of haters is really odd. Has there been a chlorine leak in some water supply or something?


Increased prominence brings increased hate.

Someone recently suggested the sale of the forum led to relaxed moderation, because higher user numbers and traffic warrants higher sponsorship costs.

Or perhaps there's just an ebb and flow to it. The more time I've spent online the less I feel like participating. Every forum and FB group eventually gets infested with trolls.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## dpage (Dec 24, 2010)

Coriolanus said:


> Canova Beach, on the Atlantic coast. I try to get over there at least least one morning on the weekends to watch the sun rise.


My old stomping grounds! I lived on the beach at several locations from Melbourne to Satellite Beach just south of Patrick AFB.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

hwa said:


> Im telling you guys, alphasharks are too thick, but that's beside the point. Erika's are worth the coin.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Kinda disagree about the too thick part; for some reason lately I have been digging the more substantial feel of higher grade seatbelt NATOs. To each their own, though. I love the slim ones, as mentioned above, too. Great all around.

I've also been looking at those Erica's straps.. what makes them good? They seem pricey for what they are..


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> That thread had potential.
> 
> Increased prominence brings increased hate.
> 
> ...


Eh I wouldn't sweat the haters too much. Clearly, these are people who never would have been your customer anyways, because they're not interested in what makes us like your products- cool designs, fair prices, high quality. They want to play highschool games, and not actually enjoy watches. I'd say you're making an ever expanding circle of pretty dedicated fans who will continue to buy new NTH watches given that they continue to live up to the high standards that have been set for the brand already. Lord knows I'm just biding my time until the pre-order for the new sub lines opens up..


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> That's about what I paid for mine directly from Doc.


Hmmm. I thought the preorders started at usd500, with increments of usd25 at each tier?


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Every now and then, a few individuals decide that their views are the only answer, and they appoint themselves "Guardian of the Galaxy."


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

$500

Skip



jamesezra said:


> Oh man... I saw this at WatchWonderland today and was quoted USD632!
> 
> How much was it when you ordered it?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Finally on the bracelet. Got my watch, cigar, wine and my sidekick in the background.








So glad I went ahead and ordered the Nazario. Was kind of on the fence but now that's it's here it was totally the right decision.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Awesome price 



skipwilliams said:


> $500
> 
> Skip
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Awesome price 



skipwilliams said:


> $500
> 
> Skip
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Pre-orders can sometimes be less. I bought my Nacken Blue Modern from Watchgauge at full retail, either $600 or $625. Your quoted price is quite fair, IMO.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mattm0691 said:


> Kinda disagree about the too thick part; for some reason lately I have been digging the more substantial feel of higher grade seatbelt NATOs. To each their own, though. I love the slim ones, as mentioned above, too. Great all around.
> 
> I've also been looking at those Erica's straps.. what makes them good? They seem pricey for what they are..


Easy on, easy off. Easy adjust and perfect fit. No extra length to fold back and tuck. Just enough elastic give. No double thickness under case. Why stick 4mm of cloth under a case specially designed to wear thin?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Coriolanus said:


> It's nice here. I'm a pasty widwesterner, and never had much interest in the beach or the heat. But work brought me here, and I didn't fight off happiness when it snuck up on me. The economy around here is great, what with the commercial space program ramping way up (I have a great few of the launches from my back porch), and there's plenty to do between here and Orlando.


Not to derail the thread too much, but I'm a surfer and have lived in Florida (Jax, Pensacola, Stuart, and Boynton Beach). But Melbourne has always called to me due to the lower cost of living, and good proximity to Cape Canaveral and Patrick AFB, and access to some quality surf breaks both north and south. And good diving a few hours drive south, or inland to the springs.

I was planning on retiring from the Navy to Melbourne this summer, but I got offered a tour in San Diego and the job is pretty fantastic, so I decided to do one more tour, and now I'm planning to retire there. The cost of living is about twice that of Melbourne, so there are some sacrifices that will need to be made. Still, of all the places in the world I had to choose from, Melbourne was within the top 3, along with Kill Devil Hills NC and Hawaii. I envy you and your daily beach sunrises!


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Yeah i know. It's the risk which we all take when diving into pre-orders I guess.

Which is why I'm keeping my eyes peeled on the next round of .... NTH SUBS!



Toonces said:


> Pre-orders can sometimes be less. I bought my Nacken Blue Modern from Watchgauge at full retail, either $600 or $625. Your quoted price is quite fair, IMO.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Yeah i know. It's the risk which we all take when diving into pre-orders I guess.

Which is why I'm keeping my eyes peeled on the next round of .... NTH SUBS!



Toonces said:


> Pre-orders can sometimes be less. I bought my Nacken Blue Modern from Watchgauge at full retail, either $600 or $625. Your quoted price is quite fair, IMO.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

docvail said:


> That thread had potential.
> 
> Increased prominence brings increased hate.
> 
> ...


It's easy to look at the mercedes or snowflake hands and simply dismiss the NTH subs as yet another Rolex "homage." To do that is to miss a lot of the nuances between the watches. Even I had originally thought the Nacken was a Pelagos homage, because I didn't understand the heritage of the brand, and the nods to past subs that the watch incorporated.

To pass an NTH sub off as a higher priced Tissell is to totally miss the point. It might be perhaps even a bit understandable except the owner, Doc, spends an awful lot of time here explaining his design philosophy.

So.

Edit: And I use "homage" in it's most loosest connotation of essentially direct copy with a different brand name on the dial (which NTH subs are not).

Edit x2: Yes, I said "most loosest"


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

jamesezra said:


> Oh man... I saw this at WatchWonderland today and was quoted USD632!
> 
> How much was it when you ordered it?


Lol, bro, you saw it in person at Watch Wonderland too? Imho, it's much nicer in person than most of the pictures I had seen.

I might get this later, 4 - 5 months later, depending on budget I'll be having by then.


----------



## Kalles (Mar 4, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> related to that thread... the recent surge of haters is really odd. Has there been a chlorine leak in some water supply or something?


I think some of it is genuine hate but I also think some of it is a bit of harmless messing about because they know Chris will most likely take the bait and go on a rantpage.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Lol, bro, you saw it in person at Watch Wonderland too? Imho, it's much nicer in person than most of the pictures I had seen.
> 
> I might get this later, 4 - 5 months later, depending on budget I'll be having by then.


Yes, it's one of those models which looks better in person. That sun burst is insane!

Will it still be available 4-5 months later?


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Doc shouldn’t listen to this kind of hate, it has no substance and there’s no rationale Behind it. Mostly it seems to be envy - as he said, with success come people who don’t like you to have it. Part of the game I guess. 

As I said here or on IG, i congratulate him for his expansion spree, it’s great to see this evolving. I am happy for him. 

I’d be happy for ME, if someone in his design team ( 🤣 ) came up with a design with hollow snowflake hands - AGAIN. Not that I’d suggest anything (beware of the rant  - ) just contemplating - again  - 




Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

jamesezra said:


> Yes, it's one of those models which looks better in person. That sun burst is insane!
> 
> Will it still be available 4-5 months later?


Maybe, maybe not. ;-)


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Maybe, maybe not. ;-)


Yeah. That's what I'm afraid of.

Problem is that it's so close to the price of a .....squale GMT!


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

jamesezra said:


> Yeah. That's what I'm afraid of.
> 
> Problem is that it's so close to the price of a .....squale GMT!


Now the question is ... which do you like more between the two? ;-)


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Doc shouldn't listen to this kind of hate, it has no substance and there's no rationale Behind it. Mostly it seems to be envy - as he said, with success come people who don't like you to have it. Part of the game I guess.
> 
> As I said here or on IG, i congratulate him for his expansion spree, it's great to see this evolving. I am happy for him.
> 
> ...


If only...










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Now the question is ... which do you like more between the two? ;-)


That.....is a very tough callllllll!!!!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Kalles said:


> I think some of it is genuine hate but I also think some of it is a bit of harmless messing about because they know Chris will most likely take the bait and go on a rantpage.


Here's the issue: "genuine hate". There's no place for "genuine hate" ANYWHERE in a watch forum. Extreme dislike, preference, choice. All those I understand. If someone brings "genuine hate" to a discussion regarding items other than those things that require it, then that person needs help, and a watch forum is the wrong place to receive it.

I'd list some of the things that deserve "genuine hate" but without re-reading the forum rules, I suspect that all of them are excepted from appropriate topics of discussion here. Today too many people use the term hate WAY too easily and without intellectual thought about the subject at hand.

That is all.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Kalles said:
> 
> 
> > I think some of it is genuine hate but I also think some of it is a bit of harmless messing about because they know Chris will most likely take the bait and go on a rantpage.
> ...


This


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

jamesezra said:


> That.....is a very tough callllllll!!!!


Lol, I understand your difficulty. Bro, I really do. ;-)


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Sigh. Doc really makes it hard to decide!
And to complicate things, the next gen Subs are up for pre-orders soon.



SimpleWatchMan said:


> Lol, I understand your difficulty. Bro, I really do. ;-)


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Sigh. Doc really makes it hard to decide!
And to complicate things, the next gen Subs are up for pre-orders soon.



SimpleWatchMan said:


> Lol, I understand your difficulty. Bro, I really do. ;-)


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

jamesezra said:


> Sigh. Doc really makes it hard to decide!
> And to complicate things, the next gen Subs are up for pre-orders soon.


Just curious, any of the next gen Subs you might fancy?


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

This my friend...









provided I have not caved in for the Barracuda. LOL
On the other hand, I could probably get the Nacken Blue now... it's also available at WW.



SimpleWatchMan said:


> Just curious, any of the next gen Subs you might fancy?


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Tiburon!


SimpleWatchMan said:


> Just curious, any of the next gen Subs you might fancy?


Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

hwa said:


> If only...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the one. And there's even more potential in the whole „hollow snowflake hands" motif. I guess it would be something additional what would set everything apart. Again, I am not suggesting anything here  just saying I like it. Surely I'm not the only one...

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

hwa said:


> If only...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very cool. Where'd you source the hands? I couldn't find anything akin to them at Dagaz, Yobokies, DLW, or eBay.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

PM me. I’ve an extra set. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

hwa said:


> PM me. I've an extra set.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I guess they wouldn't go so good on my näcken vintage blue, would theY... 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I guess they wouldn't go so good on my näcken vintage blue, would theY...
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.
> 
> Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz











Bam, Adam Smith joke.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I guess they wouldn't go so good on my näcken vintage blue, would theY...
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.
> 
> Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


Look for all C3 set, and bobs yer uncle

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I tried out the Cincy Straps Works Premium "SB" OG Bond Seat Belt Strap for the first time today. As advertised, the material is indeed thick, which of course defeats some of the of the draw of the thinness of the NTH subs. The green is also pretty dark, almost pine green. I like the strap nonetheless, but I went ahead and ordered the Geckota Vintage Bond RAF strap, which will probably compliment the Amphion better.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Kalles said:


> I think some of it is genuine hate but I also think some of it is a bit of harmless messing about because they know Chris will most likely take the bait and go on a rantpage.


You keep trying...



Kalles said:


> The only problem with this thread, like most of the threads regarding NTH watches, is Doc always having to jump in to the conversation and defend his brand the minute someone makes a subjective criticism of his watches. I don't see any other micro brand owners on the forums chiming in every time one of their watches is criticised, discussed or picked apart or maybe they have more important matters to tend to. I agree with 'I prefer pi': "subjective criticism at its core, like art and automobiles, watches will have there lovers and there haters." To me NTH watches are just, meh!


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Thinnest 300m affordable on the planet


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

ck2k01 said:


> I tried out the Cincy Straps Works Premium "SB" OG Bond Seat Belt Strap for the first time today. As advertised, the material is indeed thick, which of course defeats some of the of the draw of the thinness of the NTH subs. The green is also pretty dark, almost pine green. I like the strap nonetheless, but I went ahead and ordered the Geckota Vintage Bond RAF strap, which will probably compliment the Amphion better.
> 
> View attachment 13135835
> 
> ...


I have that geckota bond strap, I like the colorway much more than the one on the strap you have there. The green seems almost like a vintage, faded army green on the geckota, whereas that green looks too new and fresh IMO


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

mattm0691 said:


> I have that geckota bond strap, I like the colorway much more than the one on the strap you have there. The green seems almost like a vintage, faded army green on the geckota, whereas that green looks too new and fresh IMO


Looking forwarding to trying it out. I ordered satin hardware. While I was hoping for antique bronze (as I think it'd look great with the vintage Amphion faux patina), I emailed Watch Gecko recently and unfortunately they indicated that they are not planning to restock the bronze hardware.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Amphion today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Yep that's been frustrating me too, I really wanted one w/ bronze hardware to go with a watch with a guilt dial that I have. IDK if it's what you're looking for, but crown and buckle has a vintage bond zulu with bronze hardware- that's the only other bronze hardware/bond combo I could find


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Alberto66 said:


> Last post from the banned, I was actually banned for being thought to have more than one account and trolling. In fact I had only one account and expressed myself honestly and in what I believed to be non inflammatory and within the rules. However I now know my account was thought to be someone else who got banned and they banned my account with theirs, be careful of how you express yourself because certain people have a habit of censoring those who are not like minded. This sadly happens on every forum but in particular those where a certain brand is allowed to have a say in keeping opinions that only reflect that of the like minded. When did not liking something in an opinion based thread/forum become ban/censure worthy when civil language is used. I believe it is in those places where those who are honest and capable of making arguments are not allowed and that is not a place I want to be or share.


Well it looks like you have more than 1 account now. Deuces.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmmm a banned person knows another guy (in real life or on another social network beyond WUS) who posted much the same things and also got banned... And _of course _there was no previous communication between them beforehand and _absolutely independent_ opinions that _just happened_ to be seen as causes for banning...

Pull the other one, mate.

Maybe the intention was to ban this little group of invader trolls, and it's not necessarily "personalized"?


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Alberto66 said:


> And maybe as I always expected of you you are not capable of thinking for yourself.


That is approaching the line, if not actually over it.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Double post.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Alberto66 said:


> Last post from the banned, I was actually banned for being thought to have more than one account and trolling. In fact I had only one account and expressed myself honestly and in what I believed to be non inflammatory and within the rules. However I now know my account was thought to be someone else who got banned and they banned my account with theirs, be careful of how you express yourself because certain people have a habit of censoring those who are not like minded. This sadly happens on every forum but in particular those where a certain brand is allowed to have a say in keeping opinions that only reflect that of the like minded. When did not liking something in an opinion based thread/forum become ban/censure worthy when civil language is used. I believe it is in those places where those who are honest and capable of making arguments are not allowed and that is not a place I want to be or share.


And yet you're still here. And banned in violation of the rules, which you say you follow. And still insulting members. Hmmm


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Lotta conspiritatin goin on round these parts. :think:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Alberto66 said:


> Last post from the banned, I was actually banned for being thought to have more than one account and trolling. In fact I had only one account and expressed myself honestly and in what I believed to be non inflammatory and within the rules. However I now know my account was thought to be someone else who got banned and they banned my account with theirs, be careful of how you express yourself because certain people have a habit of censoring those who are not like minded. This sadly happens on every forum but in particular those where a certain brand is allowed to have a say in keeping opinions that only reflect that of the like minded. When did not liking something in an opinion based thread/forum become ban/censure worthy when civil language is used. I believe it is in those places where those who are honest and capable of making arguments are not allowed and that is not a place I want to be or share.


Wait, what?

Let me see if I got this straight...

You had a different account, and were banned because it looked like you had set up that account just for trolling. Then you somehow connected with another guy who was banned for trolling, and somehow figured out the reason your account got banned is the mods thought you were both the same guy. So you don't want to be here any more, and created yet another account just to tell us all that.

And somehow this is some other person's fault, namely mine, since you've been trolling me?

Do I have all that correct?

Apparently my mind-kill powers aren't fully developed yet. I'm only able to make people lose their grip on reality with my presence, not yet able to kill with a thought.

It's a start, and as super powers go, I'll take it, but I'll need to redouble my efforts.

I wonder if the forum has a "Danger Room" like Professor Xavier's...

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Lotta conspiritatin goin on round these parts. :think:


Is that the Omega Conspiritatin?

I love that model.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Is that the Omega Conspiritatin?
> 
> I love that model.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


I read somewhere that you take elderly peoples canes when they are not looking and thus the hatey shade being thrown your way is justified.. :think: How can we believe you if you say its not true since you at the head of the micro mafia conspiracy. If you say it is true well then you sir are a very bad, bad man. :-|

I also read that you are a very bad, bad man. I also heard that you lock people up in your basement, force them to cobble watches together with random parts and only feed them occasional SnAckers bars. :think:


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

If you get bored around here, just stick around for a while. Boredum will be elevated or alleviated or something. Or maybe Conspiritated.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Pizza ROCKS :-!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

The funniest thing about this entire conversation is that the person-who-has-been-banned for the exact same reasons as his current tirade, seems to think that Doc has a lot of inside influence here and in other forums. No influence. Just admirers. And EXACTLY contrary to “banned’s” logic, he keeps sticking his head into the exact place where most disagree with him, just to insist we have a civil informed conversation, only to insult three people in merely five posts. Time for another “geniune hate” post anytime now...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Porcupines are NOT cool <|

Aside from the the spikey things they are jerks. One borrowed my bike and never returned it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Alberto66 said:


> Wow, the person who pretends to be open minded replying and it makes me laugh as it seems you spend more time on forums than the school of horology where you would be better served. The coincidence was just that but it is typical of what I have seen on other watch forums where you have some influence those people and there views end up banned. What a sad little existence when one cannot except criticism no matter how it is delivered and it is just the opinion of those who like are see something differently but somehow that is trolling, hate, envy or whatever excuse is needed. I will say that scientific fact can influence opinions but opinions rarely influence scientific facts. I feel like the scientist.


I don't usually do this, but I can see you're struggling not to look bat$hit crazy. Here's a pro-tip...

Every so often, when you're typing, you should insert a line-break. It's easy to do. After two or three lines of text, after you hit the period at the end of a sentence, go for that "Enter" key.









In fact, it helps if you learn to use a comma, like that one I just used, and that one right there, to break up the clauses of your inevitable run-on sentences.









Here's what your angry rant looks like if you do that:



Alberto66 said:


> Wow, the person who pretends to be open minded replying, and it makes me laugh, as it seems you spend more time on forums than the school of horology, where you would be better served.
> 
> The coincidence was just that, but it is typical of what I have seen on other watch forums, where you have some influence. [New sentence] Those people and there [<- "their"] views end up banned.
> 
> ...


Phew. So much better now.

In response, I'm sure you do feel like a scientist, the same way my nephew feels like one pressing out monsters with his play-dough monster factory, and my nieces surely felt like grown-up moms having tea with their dolls, complete with full place settings.

Your laughter at my reply is expected. Completely out of place and non-sensical, but expected, because that's what lunatics do, laugh when it's not appropriate. I knew a guy in the Army who thought it was funny to toss his mom's cats up onto the roof as he was leaving for school in the morning, and put his dirty dishes under the sofa. He found it all endlessly hilarious. He was and still is out of his mind.

Look mate, I'm sorry you're unhappy. And before you deny it, don't. No one who is truly happy bothers to go out of their way to tell random strangers on the internet how awful some other person is.

If you and I had some unpleasant exchange at some time in the past, perhaps remind me what it was, and if, in hindsight, I regret my callous treatment of you, I'll apologize for it. You are of course free to accept or reject the apology.

Otherwise, you should get over it. Not because I said so, but because carrying that baggage is weighing you down. Coming here to get some impotent form of "revenge" is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

If you and I never had any unpleasant exchange, and you're just some random guy who noticed me having fun and getting along okay, and that angered you, then you might look inward, and ask why it angers you to see other people getting along, and to see me benefiting from my actions, even if you don't like them.

I don't like what some other folks do or say on the internet, or in the real world. I try not to let it bother me. I certainly don't go out of my way to bother people I don't like. Instead, I go out of my way to avoid them.

If you take nothing else away from this, just take that. If you hate me, and my brand, and my friends so much, consider that you're unlikely to change any of us, especially if I'm as twisted and they're as stupid as you seem to think, and if so, then the only solution is for you to avoid all of us, no?


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Alberto66 said:


> Wow, the person who pretends to be open minded replying and it makes me laugh as it seems you spend more time on forums than the school of horology where you would be better served. The coincidence was just that but it is typical of what I have seen on other watch forums where you have some influence those people and there views end up banned. What a sad little existence when one cannot except criticism no matter how it is delivered and it is just the opinion of those who like are see something differently but somehow that is trolling, hate, envy or whatever excuse is needed. I will say that scientific fact can influence opinions but opinions rarely influence scientific facts. I feel like the scientist.


I am man enough to tell you, "Alberto", that I know for a fact Chris didn't report your trolling @ss, I did, because this little story about confused moderators is nonsense and it was plain as day you were using multiple accounts to troll. *They have your IP address, genius*. They know when 1 person is using multiple accounts. I reported the suspicion, and they obviously reached the obvious conclusion (this was some time ago, so I presume they took their time to make a careful inquiry).

Truth: criticizing a product is criticism. Calling the maker of the product names, using epithets and labels, and making back-handed insults ("it seems you spend more time on forums than the school of horology where you would be better served") are trolling. Don't throw up your hands and claim "hey, it's just my opinion." You can have opinions, and you can make criticisms, and no one is going to bat an eye. Coat those statements in venom, derision, and insults, and you aren't just giving your opinions, you're revealing your true character and intention -- to make someone else feel small so that you can feel superior. On the playground that's a pathetic bully; on the internet, it's a pathetic troll.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Alberto66 said:


> My IP address could not have been the same "genius" because I know for a fact I was not the other person.


Very credible retort. That conclusively clears that up.

Just FYI, guess who else gets banned around here? People who have already been banned. :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Alberto66 said:


> My IP address could not have been the same "genius" because I know for a fact I was not the other person.


Maybe not today, but yesterday?

Is any of us really the same person (or in your case, people, apparently) we were yesterday?

I say no. Each of us is a new person each day.

You're still a loon, just like yesterday, but you're a renewed loon, with a new day ahead of you.


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

Alberto66 said:


> Last post from the banned......


Not so much. 7 more posts since, though I suspect a moderator will be along shortly to correct that problem.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Alberto66 said:


> I am leaving because the weather is too good. I hate leaving a post when it is not raining.
> Go figure where that comes from. Good day all.


Enjoy the good weather!


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Alberto66 said:


> What a sad little existence when one cannot except criticism no matter how it is delivered and it is just the opinion of those who like are see something differently but somehow that is trolling, hate, envy or whatever excuse is needed. I will say that scientific fact can influence opinions but opinions rarely influence scientific facts. I feel like the scientist.


Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

MaxIcon said:


> Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?


You sir won the internets today. :-!

However you have twisted my mind to a point of possible no return. :-s


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Why is it that every thread in Wus lately seems to be full of bitc*ing and trolling?...Enjoy the watches everyone!!...the more options the better....Orthos ii mod today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

So, how 'bout them watches?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Alberto66 said:


> Thank you as I do not live in fear of who I am and what I am not.


I do live in fear of who I am, but only because I know what I'm capable of doing.

Fear of the consequences is the main reason I've been practicing mind-death powers.

I don't fear what I'm not. I'm not a penguin. I don't fear penguins. Ipso facto, I can boldly confront all manner of antarctic flightless water-foul.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

A classic from the archives. I totally forgot about this strap -- I need to go dig it out.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Sevenmack (Oct 16, 2011)

Agent Sands said:


> So, how 'bout them watches?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

So Doc and the mystery man where a magician duo a long time ago now engaged in a battle to create the ultimate illusion whilst sacrificing everything they have to outwit the other.

It all makes sense now. :-!


Edit: Looks like our friends posts have disappeared making some of our responses not make sense. :think: 

The conspiracies are real :-s


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

My responses usually don’t make sense anyway. 

And although it is annoying at first, the comedy involved in this type of exchange is one of my favorite things on the forum...


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ Is that guy really drinking Bud Light? They still make that crap and people still drink it? Really?

Drinking Bud Light is like wearing an Invicta. 

Yeah, I said that.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Toonces said:


> ^ Is that guy really drinking Bud Light? They still make that crap and people still drink it? Really?
> 
> Drinking Bud Light is like wearing an Invicta.
> 
> Yeah, I said that.


 You're pointing at me, but I'm thinking you're actually pointing at somebody several posts earlier. Because I don't think I ever said that I drink Bud Light. There's nothing wrong with that, and I respect those people that do it, and everyone is free to their own choices, but I drink Yuengling...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> You're pointing at me, but I'm thinking you're actually pointing at somebody several posts earlier. Because I don't think I ever said that I drink Bud Light. There's nothing wrong with that, and I respect those people that do it, and everyone is free to their own choices, but I drink Yuengling...


Yuengling!!!

Representing PA, y'all!!!

Gonna be a good day, Tater!

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> You're pointing at me, but I'm thinking you're actually pointing at somebody several posts earlier. Because I don't think I ever said that I drink Bud Light. There's nothing wrong with that, and I respect those people that do it, and everyone is free to their own choices, but I drink Yuengling...


Yuengling!!! Dilly Dilly!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> So Doc and the mystery man where a magician duo a long time ago now engaged in a battle to create the ultimate illusion whilst sacrificing everything they have to outwit the other.
> 
> It all makes sense now. :-!
> 
> ...


How long before we see, "my last two accounts were deleted because they thought I was two other guys, but I'm not, so I created another account, and came back just to pee in your punch again..."?

Y'all have no idea how powerful I feel whenever someone goes out of their way just to tell me how annoyed they are by my mere existence.

Someone out there is seething over something I don't even remember doing or saying, and I'm just walking around, hoping I'll see someone with a dog I can stop and pet.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

huh, I'm offline for less than a day, and I miss some spicy drama??

Sucks, man  lol


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Bud Light? That's like sex in a canoe. Effing close to water.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Bud Light? That's like sex in a canoe. Effing close to water.


LQTM.

Laugh quietly to myself.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All DevilRays have now shipped.

EDIT/PS - Well, except for the two guys who asked me to hold their orders, in case one of you two reads that and starts freaking out.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Good stuff! There was nothing too exciting in any other threads, but this one came thru! 

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

docvail said:


> I don't usually do this, but I can see you're struggling not to look bat$hit crazy. Here's a pro-tip...
> 
> Every so often, when you're typing, you should insert a line-break. It's easy to do. After two or three lines of text, after you hit the period at the end of a sentence, go for that "Enter" key.
> 
> ...


Honestly, if I could, I'll give 100x likes. :-!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Toonces said:


> ^ Is that guy really drinking Bud Light? They still make that crap and people still drink it? Really?
> 
> Drinking Bud Light is like wearing an Invicta.
> 
> Yeah, I said that.


sorry, bro, must disagree. I can take an Invicta and mod it to look like a Rolex. That Bud Light cannot be helped, unless you spill it out and fill the can with whisky.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> sorry, bro, must disagree. I can take an Invicta and mod it to look like a Rolex. That Bud Light cannot be helped, unless you spill it out and fill the can with whisky.


Drinking level: Ninja.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

I love Bud regular (heavy)....don't give a rats azz what people say

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

For the record I don’t drink ‘bud’. Now if we are talking Yuengling, count me in.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> For the record I don't drink 'bud'. Now if we are talking Yuengling, count me in.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Oh I'll drink that too....









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Sometimes in the morning, I set my son in his nursery, turn on the baby monitor, and go to the kitchen to have breakfast and a cup of coffee. Usually, when I check on him after a few minutes, nothing interesting seems to have happened.

But every once in a while, he apparently transforms into a baby tornado. In a matter of minutes while I'm not paying attention, he'll explode his toys and stuffed animals all over the nursery. I mean, every single toy has been disassembled and/or violently relocated.

That's kinda what this thread is like sometimes when I check in after a few days.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Duplicate post deleted.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

mm, its funny. Ironic. And strange. 
I finally have my Näcken modern blue, no date. I missed it twice, at better prices, before finally making sure I get my hands on it this time.
It was a no-brainer. I had been considering this watch for so long. I knew I wanted it, and I new exactly which version I wanted. When the pre-order was announced, it was a quick and clean job. Probably spent less than a minute at watchgauge before I was out again. 

And I have to give it to you Doc, this looks great. So why this weird intro? 
Well, I'm thinking it might be to nice for me. And I mean just that, nice. Yes, it's also expensive by my standards, but I can live with that. It's affordable for what it is.
It's just that it looks like expensive Swiss jewelry. How can I go bang, ding, smear and gunk this thing up with a clear conscience?

I really don't know. 
I sized it, tried it on for a few hours. It feels great, but those thoughts are hunting me...


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ I can see that. I don't baby my watches, but my Nacken doesn't seem like it would improve in looks with battle scars...unlike, say, and SKX which just looks better the more beat up it becomes.

Interesting thought.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I know some people think I'm kidding, but I'm no longer here for the watches. Comedy, beer advice, crazy people, life lessons. All that stuff in one thread. I just buy the watches now to keep it going...

Oh yeah. And apples. But technically, that was the other crazy thread, so I don't know if it really counts. But apples.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I know some people think I'm kidding, but I'm no longer here for the watches. Comedy, beer advice, crazy people, life lessons. All that stuff in one thread. I just buy the watches now to keep it going...
> 
> Oh yeah. And apples. But technically, that was the other crazy thread, so I don't know if it really counts. But apples.


You can lead a bear to water in the woods, but you can't make him grab a bird from the bush.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> You can lead a bear to water in the woods, but you can't make him grab a bird from the bush.


There's a Trump joke in there somewhere, I'm sure of it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> There's a Trump joke in there somewhere, I'm sure of it.


They say theres an a$$hole in every room, and if you cant identify him, youre it.

Hi, Doc. Happy hump day. (Arent they all)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> They say theres an a$$hole in every room, and if you cant identify him, youre it.
> 
> Hi, Doc. Happy hump day. (Arent they all)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't worry, I've identified him. Looking right at him, in fact...

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seems more or less accurate...










Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

heh... if only.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Don't worry, I've identified him. Looking right at him, in fact...
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


so, your monitor reflects your face, too? I hate that mine does that.


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Sadly, I quite like Bud light. But I thought a Yuengling was something out of Lord of the Rings so what do I know? 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

arrvoo said:


> Sadly, I quite like Bud light. But I thought a Yuengling was something out of Lord of the Rings so what do I know?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


It comes in pints? I'm getting one!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Blimey!! Get busy for a day and miss the ripest troll-troubling for many an eon - any chance of inviting him back for a repeat rinsing?? Not just yet tho', as I will have to spend the rest of the afternoon cleaning my half-munched lunch from the monitor, keyboard and the immediate environs - haven't had such a good food splurting laughter sesh for ages........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Sweet!!









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## footie (Nov 12, 2013)

I've got a new blue devil ray in the box, and I'd like to trade it for the black version. Please let me know if you're interested. Thanks.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Sweet on orange ISO


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Ok world might end a guy came up and asked if I was wearing an NTH DevilRay that he just got a Nacken 

Wild had a nice chat with the guy


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Ok world might end a guy came up and asked if I was wearing an NTH DevilRay that he just got a Nacken
> 
> Wild had a nice chat with the guy


90% that he's a member of this forum. Did you ask?


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Ok world might end a guy came up and asked if I was wearing an NTH DevilRay that he just got a Nacken
> 
> Wild had a nice chat with the guy


90% that he's a member of this forum. Did you ask?


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> 90% that he's a member of this forum. Did you ask?


Yes and yes


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## iceman66 (Feb 24, 2013)

Mil6161 said:


> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


It's about time! IYKWIM :-d


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Not a DR, but it is Phantom Friday.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Not a DR, but it is Phantom Friday.


I'd love to grab a ghost rider


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

MikeCfromLI said:


> I'd love to grab a ghost rider


Doc, or rather his watchmaker, converted my Khaki-dialed Phantom to a GR for me. Dunno if he has dials and hands in stock now.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Doc, or rather his watchmaker, converted my Khaki-dialed Phantom to a GR for me. Dunno if he has dials and hands in stock now.


Maybe I can ask him at the GTG


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> Doc, or rather his watchmaker, converted my Khaki-dialed Phantom to a GR for me. Dunno if he has dials and hands in stock now.





MikeCfromLI said:


> Maybe I can ask him at the GTG


We agreed to do a dial/hands swap for Mike because I understood his vision is impaired/failing, and he had a hard time reading the full lume dial.

Ordinarily, we don't do those sorts of modifications on assembled pieces, because of the time and risk involved.

The last thing I need is to spend an hour on back and forth emails about a mod, we end up scratching the case, and I don't have a replacement, all for a $25 mod. Kill me now.

We had Ghost Riders available for a good while, months, in fact. Eventually they all sold.

My focus needs to be elsewhere now, on new model development, warranty support, and promotion.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Sorry, Doc. I should have checked with you bafore I let that out.  And thanks again for making it a bit easier for an old guy.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My focus needs to be elsewhere now, on new model development, warranty support, and promotion.


Don't forget making a new batch of Nazarios, perhaps with Mercedes hands . . .

In the meantime, I'm enjoying my just-arrived Santa Fe (will be trying out the snowflake mod soon--the hands are inbound) and looking forward to trying out the DR upon receipt from John next week. You need to add "amassing NTHs" to that "stages of watch collecting" graphic a few pages back.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> We agreed to do a dial/hands swap for Mike because I understood his vision is impaired/failing, and he had a hard time reading the full lume dial.
> 
> Ordinarily, we don't do those sorts of modifications on assembled pieces, because of the time and risk involved.
> 
> ...


Chris the ask would be any ghost riders Laying about not how about you make me one.... you occasionally have samples etc with you like I bought one of last year


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> We agreed to do a dial/hands swap for Mike because I understood his vision is impaired/failing, and he had a hard time reading the full lume dial.
> 
> Ordinarily, we don't do those sorts of modifications on assembled pieces, because of the time and risk involved.
> 
> ...


Got one on the way from the forum nothing to see here


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> Sorry, Doc. I should have checked with you bafore I let that out.  And thanks again for making it a bit easier for an old guy.


It's all good. I try to say yes to those sorts of one-off requests when I can, but I don't like to invite them, for what I hope are obvious reasons.



ck2k01 said:


> Don't forget making a new batch of Nazarios, perhaps with Mercedes hands . . .
> 
> In the meantime, I'm enjoying my just-arrived Santa Fe (will be trying out the snowflake mod soon--the hands are inbound) and looking forward to trying out the DR upon receipt from John next week. You need to add "amassing NTHs" to that "stages of watch collecting" graphic a few pages back.
> 
> View attachment 13147547


There will be no more of the Nazario, as it was a 25-piece LE.

We might do something similar at some point, but definitely not exactly the same.



MikeCfromLI said:


> Chris the ask would be any ghost riders Laying about not how about you make me one.... you occasionally have samples etc with you like I bought one of last year


On the one hand, I want to say everything I have for sale is on the website, so there's never any need to ask me about anything that isn't, but the truth is I do occasionally have stuff "for sale" that isn't on the website.

Currently I have 4 photo/blogger samples of the Spectre II, but that's all, unless you want to make me an offer on something from my personal collection. I'll have both my personal collection and those 4 samples with me on Sunday, if you'll be at our GTG.

But otherwise, if I have it for sale, it's on the website, so no more Ghost Riders available (John from Watch Gauge took the last few pieces, and I think he sold them quickly), and I don't want to field dial/hands-swap requests if I can avoid it, again, for what I hope are obvious reasons, it's too much time and trouble for not nearly enough money.



MikeCfromLI said:


> Got one on the way from the forum nothing to see here


All's well that ends well.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> There will be no more of the Nazario, as it was a 25-piece LE.
> 
> We might do something similar at some point, but definitely not exactly the same.


Thanks, Chris. I figured as much. I'll keep an eye out for anything new from you in a similar vein, and of course the secondhand market in the meantime.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Still rockin it









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

DR... I can't stop loviiiiiiiing youuuuuuuu!









Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

You guys were right about needing a more truly vintage-colored Bond strap: the WatchGecko vintage Bond RAF is definitely doing the color and svelte trick for me. The darker colors and thickness of the Cincy Strap Works vintage bond seatbelt nato just weren't 100% working for me, so while a nice strap, I think I'm going to let it go.


----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Watchgecko leather works too...








I like the metal, nato-style keepers.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

EL_GEEk said:


> "Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"
> 
> Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


I makes the watches. You photographs the watches.

I like this arrangement.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

docvail said:


> I makes the watches. You photographs the watches.
> 
> I like this arrangement.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!




"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

EL_GEEk said:


> "Life is too short, buy all the watches you like"
> 
> Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


What NATO is this?? It looks great.

Doc, are there going to be more black Scorpenes coming out with the new batch of NTHs? That's yet another one that I always kick myself for missing the boat on, and I'd love to be able to pick one up..


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

mattm0691 said:


> What NATO is this?? It looks great.
> 
> Doc, are there going to be more black Scorpenes coming out with the new batch of NTHs? That's yet another one that I always kick myself for missing the boat on, and I'd love to be able to pick one up..


I believe just the blue scorpene. No black version next batch from what i remember


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I believe just the blue scorpene. No black version next batch from what i remember


[email protected] >_>


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

The strap looks like a Haveston to me.



mattm0691 said:


> What NATO is this?? It looks great.
> 
> Doc, are there going to be more black Scorpenes coming out with the new batch of NTHs? That's yet another one that I always kick myself for missing the boat on, and I'd love to be able to pick one up..


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Ojibway Bob said:


> The strap looks like a Haveston to me.


good call. So it appears to be, andddd I just bought one lol


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mattm0691 said:


> good call. So it appears to be, andddd I just bought one lol


They are awesome straps. I have 3 and love them immensely. You will love the tin that they come in. So many uses for them.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk
Oh, and a pic because even thou i am late to the party, i enjoy what @docvail brings to the proverbial watch table.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> What NATO is this?? It looks great.
> 
> Doc, are there going to be more black Scorpenes coming out with the new batch of NTHs? That's yet another one that I always kick myself for missing the boat on, and I'd love to be able to pick one up..


Next batch? No.

Future batch? Probably.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

And I have a new watch. Dammit Chris!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> And I have a new watch. Dammit Chris!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice to meet you finally, Rhory, and thanks for buying the Spectre, but not for trying to crush all my phalanges with that handshake.

Next time go easy, Thanos.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Does rhory have a BSC like Thanos?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Cant help but wear the Nacken on these two straps.
Bracelet is very nice but these straps make it more rugged and toolish.



















Also added the marathon shoulder-less bars


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Does rhory have a BSC like Thanos?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Big, striated chin?

No, he doesn't.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Big, striated chin?
> 
> No, he doesn't.
> 
> View attachment 13156079


Chin is big enough, no striations. Lots of hair on it though. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Chin is big enough, no striations. Lots of hair on it though.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


No comparison though.


----------



## kirkryanm (Jan 5, 2016)

BOR DevilRay









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## K-Kirk (May 29, 2017)

The black DR is stunning...looks even better than I imagined


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)




----------



## Derkdiggler (Jul 5, 2016)

Love it.









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

So as it turns out, May 23rd = NTH Xmas: my DevilRay arrived, as did the snowflake hands for a Santa Fe mod (thanks to the fellow member for the idea).

































FYI, I've posted more pics of this DevilRay variant in the dedicated F71 DevilRay thread.

























I didn't carve out the snowflake hands as I'm happy enough with this look. I only have an iPhone camera so I can't capture how the dial + hands look in darkness via a long exposure shot, but suffice it to say, the combo looks good to my eye!

















Thanks, Doc.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Holy [email protected]#$ does that Watchgauge LE DR look good...


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

It looks to me like Antilles and Azores were pretty popular. Any chance we might see a re-issue - particularly the sold-out schemes?


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Even a $29 smart phone shows how sweet the DR is.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nuru said:


> It looks to me like Antilles and Azores were pretty popular. Any chance we might see a re-issue - particularly the sold-out schemes?


Maybe. Never say never.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Holy [email protected]#$ does that Watchgauge LE DR look good...


There's also an LE for Watch Wonderland in Singapore. They just got it from me, so they're in the process of doing all the photos and video. It'll be available for sale soon, and I'll be posting links to it on social media, and in our email newsletter.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Living life on edge taking lumed crown pics at work.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Living life on edge taking lumed crown pics at work.


If anyone catches you, just punch yourself in the face, and act like you meant to do it.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> If anyone catches you, just punch yourself in the face, and act like you meant to do it.


I'm saving that for when my boss trys to fire me for spending too much time on WUS and taking watch pics at work. I'll beat myself up and blame her ala sir Edward Norton in the Shakespearean tale Fight Club.

Hoping the settlement money should help me purchase your next few watches. Although now that your going Hollywood on us I may need to actually break something to get enough money to afford your future endeavors.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

I was on my back for two days with an injury and could not get photos done of the WatchGauge DR. Now I'm good.

The gray dial is mysterious in that it changes with the lighting and the angle at which it is viewed.

I hope these do it justice. FYI on 6 3/4" wrist.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I’d trade my black dial for this any day!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Ratfacedgit said:


> I was on my back for two days with an injury and could not get photos done of the WatchGauge DR. Now I'm good.
> 
> The gray dial is mysterious in that it changes with the lighting and the angle at which it is viewed.
> 
> ...


Wow!! and Double Wow!! You could lose yourself forever in that dial, amazing...........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> There's also an LE for Watch Wonderland in Singapore. They just got it from me, so they're in the process of doing all the photos and video. It'll be available for sale soon, and I'll be posting links to it on social media, and in our email newsletter.


Looking forwaed to it!


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Got away from the Nazario for a few days, wore my Devilray, my Doxa, picked up the Nazario and it’s back on my wrist. Almost sad that only 25 people in the world will have the enjoyment I have of wearing this badass watch. Stellar Doc, all I can say.


----------



## footie (Nov 12, 2013)

I'm having a ..... of a time getting the Devil Ray bracelet reinstalled. I don't think of myself as a noob. Anyone else have any trouble?


----------



## footie (Nov 12, 2013)

footie said:


> I'm having a ..... of a time getting the Devil Ray bracelet reinstalled. I don't think of myself as a noob. Anyone else have any trouble?


Ugh. Tried a different spring bar and it went right in. That $0.04 spring bar cost me a bunch of little scratches!


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Coriolanus said:


> Holy [email protected]#$ does that Watchgauge LE DR look good...


Is that what that is, watch guage version? Yea that version looks fantastic!

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Duplicate (somehow). This forum... smh.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> I'm saving that for when my boss trys to fire me for spending too much time on WUS and taking watch pics at work. I'll beat myself up and blame her ala sir Edward Norton in the Shakespearean tale Fight Club.
> 
> Hoping the settlement money should help me purchase your next few watches. Although now that your going Hollywood on us I may need to actually break something to get enough money to afford your future endeavors.


OK, gotta do it...

The first rule of WUS is, you do not talk about WUS (with your wife/girlfriend).

The second rule of WUS is YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT WUS (with your wife/girlfriend).

The third rule of WUS is that if someone posts a sincere apology, the internet pissing contest is over.

The fourth and fifth rules of WUS don't apply. Buy and post pics of as many watches as you like.

Sixth rule: No Invictas.

Seventh rule: Doc's wall-o-text posts will ramble on as long as they have to.

And the eight and final rule of WUS: If this is your first post to WUS, it must include a pic.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

On a more serious note, I've been busy and so not around the forum much lately, but wanted to check in and post a quick update:









I've been wearing this beauty every day for over a month now (Sorry for the funk around the bezel - food covered baby fingers reaching for dad's watch will do that). Still loving it. Not much to say that I haven't said already, as my opinion hasn't changed at all. I guess we'll let it ride and see how long I can keep wearing it before I feel the need to put on something else. But even a month is a really good run for me. Cheers!


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Ratfacedgit said:


> I was on my back for two days with an injury and could not get photos done of the WatchGauge DR. Now I'm good.
> 
> The gray dial is mysterious in that it changes with the lighting and the angle at which it is viewed.
> 
> ...


That is bloody FANTASTIC. You're going to make me buy a second DR. Ridiculous.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Nazario reflecting the sun set.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All-In - The Rise and Fall of a Microbrand - Janis Trading Company


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> All-In - The Rise and Fall of a Microbrand - Janis Trading Company


Huh


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> Huh


Submitted, for whatever it's worth. Take it with a grain of salt, etc.

I take no joy in seeing someone fail in business, but each time it happens, I try to examine the situation, to see if there's some wisdom to be gleaned, or, if nothing else, if the situation seems to confirm or contradict my own view of the industry, and the decisions I make regarding my own business.

For the most part, when one of my competitors fails, and I see what I think are the reasons why, it all helps to validate my own decisions, and bolster my confidence, while at the same time serving as a reminder and warning not to fall victim to hubris.

In a nutshell, I'm comfortable being considered part of the rabble, inasmuch as I've seen what the rabble will frequently do to those who would sit above it.


----------



## georgefl74 (Jun 18, 2015)

docvail said:


> All-In - The Rise and Fall of a Microbrand - Janis Trading Company


That was an interesting piece Doc, but no need to end it in a gloomy note. Chinese may start their own micros but they'll cater to their own market, which is in its infancy now as well. Different markets, different tastes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

georgefl74 said:


> That was an interesting piece Doc, but no need to end it in a gloomy note. Chinese may start their own micros but they'll cater to their own market, which is in its infancy now as well. Different markets, different tastes.


Interesting that you say that, inasmuch as it echoes what my guy in China said at the time - essentially that he sees a burgeoning market for micro-brands and mid-market-priced fare within the emerging Chinese middle-class.

That said, I don't necessarily see the ending of my post as a down note, per se. Like I said above (sort of), I try not to let myself fall victim to hubris, and I've found that I work best when I feel like the wolves are approaching my door. Nothing motivates like impending doom, perhaps.

I'm already seeing increased competition from all the microbrand startups, many of which are under-pricing my brands. Some are short-sighted in doing so, but not all. Some are run by folks living in parts of the world with a lower cost of living, and/or running their businesses with less overhead than mine. But whatever the reason, they can charge less than I do, and survive, if not thrive.

What's it going to be like when China is producing as many entrepreneurs as America does now, many of which are just as hungry for success as I and my contemporaries are? I don't think today's microbrand owners are as smart, on average, as tomorrow's Chinese microbrand owners are likely to be, and they'll have the advantage of being in China, what is likely to be the hot new market, as well as the advantage of proximity to the parts of Asia where today's production is likely to move in the future.

How am I to compete with that?

When I asked my guy in Hong Kong what he sees himself doing in that future, he described a business he'd own which is much different than the one he owns today. Instead of focusing on producing watches for companies like mine, he sees himself selling watches made by Chinese companies like mine, but selling them in Hong Kong, and into China.

He's made peace with the fact he'll have to adapt to survive. I've always adapted to my situation, and found a way to succeed. Blog posts like the one I posted today are partly a reminder to myself - don't get complacent.

And I suppose therein lies the lesson in Niall's demise. As an outsider looking in, it seems to me that Niall's management went "all-in" on an obsolete strategy for a flawed business model. They ignored reality in favor of ancient history.

I don't know what I'll be doing in ten years. What I do know is this - I'd rather see my company change to adapt to its environment than see it die for a lack of adaptability. If it dies, I'd rather it be said that no one could see the reason coming, than have it said I was stupidly looking the wrong way.

Until then, I plan to keep my head on a swivel, and continue working on my ability to see around corners.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Do you (Doc or anyone else) see micros taking a large share away from the semi-luxury brands market (Tag>>Omega>>Rolex) due to people generally moving away from continuing to follow the increase in semi-luxury prices (meaning we will prob see more micros, maybe even with segmentation, but always at affordable prices), or do you think the "prestige of heritage" will keep some of that market chasing the prices with the rest just leaving mechanical watches altogether (i.e. I can't afford a Rolex, but I'd rather have no watch/an Apple watch (perceived luxury in that it's sort of at the "top" of the smart watch space right now) than wear a micro because there's no name recognition mentality)?

tl;dr - what will happen to the people currently in the Tag>>Omega>>Rolex market in the future (near and far) as it relates to micros?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Disneydave said:


> Do you (Doc or anyone else) see micros taking a large share away from the semi-luxury brands market (Tag>>Omega>>Rolex) due to people generally moving away from continuing to follow the increase in semi-luxury prices (meaning we will prob see more micros, maybe even with segmentation, but always at affordable prices), or do you think the "prestige of heritage" will keep some of that market chasing the prices with the rest just leaving mechanical watches altogether (i.e. I can't afford a Rolex, but I'd rather have no watch/an Apple watch (perceived luxury in that it's sort of at the "top" of the smart watch space right now) than wear a micro because there's no name recognition mentality)?
> 
> tl;dr - what will happen to the people currently in the Tag>>Omega>>Rolex market in the future (near and far) as it relates to micros?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Those guys, as ever, will rip your a$$ for wearing fakes. Screw 'em.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Do you (Doc or anyone else) see micros taking a large share away from the semi-luxury brands market (Tag>>Omega>>Rolex) due to people generally moving away from continuing to follow the increase in semi-luxury prices (meaning we will prob see more micros, maybe even with segmentation, but always at affordable prices), or do you think the "prestige of heritage" will keep some of that market chasing the prices with the rest just leaving mechanical watches altogether (i.e. I can't afford a Rolex, but I'd rather have no watch/an Apple watch (perceived luxury in that it's sort of at the "top" of the smart watch space right now) than wear a micro because there's no name recognition mentality)?
> 
> tl;dr - what will happen to the people currently in the Tag>>Omega>>Rolex market in the future (near and far) as it relates to micros?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


I'm not sure I entirely understand the question, but it brings to mind two quotes, "There's a sucker born every minute", credited to P.T. Barnum, and "in the long run, we're all dead", credited to John Maynard Keynes.

In the long run, I have no idea what will happen with those people and those brands, and I don't care, really, because in the long run, we're all dead.

In the short term, I imagine it'll be quite some time before there's no profit to be made exploiting people who have more money than sense.

I assume you read the blog post, and if so, you may have noted the graphic showing those three brands, Rolex, Omega, and Tag are the three most-searched luxury brand names online. By itself, that one fact would seem to bode well for them.

But I'd be interested to see more of the data behind those figures, to know more about the demographics of those doing the searching, and what prompted those searches.

Just by way of explanation/example, the vast majority of traffic to my website is organic. Most people are going directly to my site by keying the URL into their browser, or searching for one of my brand names.

No one on the planet just randomly types my URL into their browser, or randomly searches "NTH Watches". All of those people heard about the business SOMEWHERE, and since I don't do much advertising, it's likely they heard about my business either directly from me, by way of my online engagement here and elsewhere on the web, or through word of mouth, from my customers and fans.

Those people who comprise that organic traffic are "highly qualified", meaning most of them are interested in buying something from my business.

So...who are the people searching for Rolex, Omega and Tag, and why?

Perhaps they're highly qualified online shoppers looking for where they can buy one of those brands, or perhaps they're noobs who heard those are the three best watch brands from some non-WIS, or perhaps they're college students doing marketing research.

And if it's highly qualified online shoppers, in the same way people visiting my website are, what level of marketing spend was required to generate that level of traffic? With me, my spend is very little, albeit, I've invested a lot of my time in online engagement. Those brands have virtually no online engagement at all, so I have to think it's mostly expensive advertising driving that search traffic.

With ecommerce, CCA (cost of customer acquisition) is a key concern, if not the foremost concern. Rolex, Omega and Tag must have insanely high CCA, which is fine, so long as they can drive enough revenue to justify it.

So, the answer to the question, "what will happen to Rolex, Omega and Tag" is "they'll be fine, so long as their sales revenue justifies their CCA, and they won't be fine the day it doesn't".

When will that be, if ever? Possibly soon, the way I read the tea leaves. Look at this slide from Digital Luxury Group's 2014 report:









Global interest in luxury brands may have grown by 5% year over year from 2013 to 2014, but that was almost entirely due to China, which has since seen its economy slow down, a lot. Most mature markets, especially the USA, saw declining interest. How much do you want to bet this picture has gotten worse in more recent years?

Luxury ain't all that. It ain't even what it used to be.

As for micros, it's not about the "share" they're "taking away" from the luxury brands. The luxury brands have steadily been giving away large chunks of the market with each passing year, each price increase, and each celebrity endorsement. I'm not costing luxury brands any money by selling $500 watches. $500 watches aren't luxury watches.

Like so many things, to me, this is all a math problem. It's statistics, demographics, and macroeconomic trends.

Veblen goods theory notwithstanding, demand for a thing generally declines as the price of that thing increases. Layer in slow wage growth, an aging populace, increasing fragmentation in media, and declining interest in luxury brands, and I don't understand why any startup would want to make a play at the luxury market, without having the nearly unlimited marketing budget necessary to make that play viable.

It's a hail mary pass, which rarely work, and are generally reserved for the end of the game, not the beginning. That's just bad coaching, son.

Other microbrands can do what they damn well please as far as their prices and products go. I'll continue to aim my products and prices at what I see as unmet demand. And that ain't in the luxury space.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

The only thing that you can be certain of in life is change, everything is changing, all of the time and change is something that fuman beens hate. 

Looking at that watch-brand search chart tells it's own story, the default wish-for, want or buy for the majority is biased towards the left of the graph, you can't fight gravity and things will probably stay that way for a long time yet; let's face it, punters feel safe and secure there, mostly from a self-image and perceived investment angle. From a business point of view, wouldn't it be great - and very profitable - to gatecrash that particular party? If successful, the pay-off is comfy cushion time, but you will have to be in possession of something truly compelling to achieve this, a highly inflated price isn't it. 

That business plan has to be well researched, costed and do-able, if ever there was an industry where the 6-"P" Principle held sway it is this one, keep you head on that swivel Doc and stay ahead of that pack.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I've been wearing a watch on my wrist for 33 years now, and I never even heard of a "microbrand" until a year and a half ago. And, ironically, that was from an article on artofmanliness about how to choose a watch and the different kinds of watches, and I realized there are forums actually dedicated to discussing them. Whoa.

Somehow, I don't think I'm atypical. 

If you're not on WUS or somehow otherwise made aware of NTH through a friend or something, I don't know how you ever end up on Doc's website and end up buying one of his watches. Hence, I reckon time spent on here is of extraordinary value.

How was Niall advertising? Because I'm not seeing his watches in the wild, I'm not seeing them in magazines, and I sure as heck haven't seen him on WUS...but then again I hang in affordables and divers, so perhaps I just missed "his" 600+ page thread.

For the last 18 months I've been actively actually noticing and looking at the watches on others' wrists. I have yet to see a microbrand, or a brand who's name I don't recognize. At this point, I'd be stoked to even see a Seiko.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

This forum introduced me to microbrands. I have a small collection of 10 watches. 4 are micros, 2 NTH and 2 Borealis. I have a Doxa which I really like. I have a Rolex GMT which is my favorite but I think I’m slowly getting irritated with Rolex. Example, recently went to an AD to see about getting a Pepsi bezel insert. My model is a 16760 which has a Coke insert which is what the watch originally came with. I was told they could not sell me a Pepsi insert because that was not what it came with. I just cannot understand that mentality. It’s like they’re doing you a favor by selling you a watch. I don’t get that feeling from Doc. Just my .02. YMMV.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'm not sure I entirely understand the question, but it brings to mind two quotes, "There's a sucker born every minute", credited to P.T. Barnum, and "in the long run, we're all dead", credited to John Maynard Keynes.
> 
> In the long run, I have no idea what will happen with those people and those brands, and I don't care, really, because in the long run, we're all dead.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Doc. Interesting thoughts on a confusing market (where the cost of goods purposely increases to "prove luxury" rather than decreases with tech advanaces and to take advantage of economies of scale). Enjoy your Memorial Day.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Nikita70 said:


> I just cannot understand that mentality. It's like they're doing you a favor by selling you a watch. I don't get that feeling from Doc. Just my .02. YMMV.


I feel like so many of the big brands (or really, their individual sales associates) have somehow decided *this* is what customer service should be now - exclusivity. Without taking this down the rabbit hole of service based on perceived ability to pay, I do feel like, for some brands, some of this attitude is based on the individual sales associate acting as a "protector of the brand" by feeling like it is a privilege to buy a certain watch, while others is just a luxury differentiator to build in perceived exclusivity (e.g. Patek actually requiring interviews/history sheets to buy certain models of their watch). Either way, it has worked in the past, but it'll be interesting to see if this works on the newer generations.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> I feel like so many of the big brands (or really, their individual sales associates) have somehow decided *this* is what customer service should be now - exclusivity. Without taking this down the rabbit hole of service based on perceived ability to pay, I do feel like, for some brands, some of this attitude is based on the individual sales associate acting as a "protector of the brand" by feeling like it is a privilege to buy a certain watch, while others is just a luxury differentiator to build in perceived exclusivity (e.g. Patek actually requiring interviews/history sheets to buy certain models of their watch). Either way, it has worked in the past, but it'll be interesting to see if this works on the newer generations.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


With that said, I do feel like a shout out is due to both the Tourneau and Omega boutiques in my local mall, King of Prussia. If it cost a quarter to go round the world, I usually look like I can't get round the block, and yet they're consistently accommodating when I go in there.

Last time I had Rusty with me, and he looks like Duck Dynasty's poor cousin. They were even nice to him.









Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I make pool cues, I only make a small number every year. If a person bought a cue whether directly from me or second hand and then say they wanted to change the wrap from linen to leather and I told them no, that’s not what originally came on the cue then a) they’d be pissed off and b) they’d go have someone else do it and c) probably tell other people I’m an a$$.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> I make pool cues, I only make a small number every year. If a person bought a cue whether directly from me or second hand and then say they wanted to change the wrap from linen to leather and I told them no, that's not what originally came on the cue then a) they'd be pissed off and b) they'd go have someone else do it and c) probably tell other people I'm an a$$.


Well, you see, you say that, but...

It's a little different with watches, at least in my view.

I get people emailing me to ask for help with mods, or just ask questions about modding our watches, and it makes me nervous.

First off, I'm in the watch business, not the parts business. I'm not set up to be efficient selling a $15-$20 bezel insert. I don't want to be in that business.

Secondly, suppose you botch the crystal swap, or I give you the size based on the case engineering diagram, but what I don't know is it's actually somewhat larger or smaller than that, your watch gets water in it, and now you blame me, and expect me to fix it?

You want to mod a $200 Seiko? Be my guest. If you botch the job, Seiko isn't likely to feel any pain in the aftermath. But how many WIS are going to eat the cost of a ruined $600 NTH Sub in the wake of a ham-fisted mod attempt?

I have people who blame me when they screw up their bracelet trying to size it. I don't want to deal with botched mod attempts.

People can think I'm an a$$ if they want, but I'll be an a$$ with one less thing to worry about, won't I?


----------



## VF1Valkyrie (Oct 13, 2015)

docvail said:


> All-In - The Rise and Fall of a Microbrand - Janis Trading Company


So what you're saying is someone in Antarctica needs to buy a watch from you, is that was I was supposed to take away from this?


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Well, you see, you say that, but...
> 
> It's a little different with watches, at least in my view.
> 
> ...


I was comparing my above mentioned post to getting a new bezel insert for my Rolex. Their point is I cannot have a Pepsi insert because my watch originally came with a Coke insert. Which has nothing to do with a crystal change or waterproof issues.

I don't want to derail this thread, my original point is how microbrands seem to be more customer friendly than other brands, namely luxury brands such as Rolex, I don't have any experience with PP, AP, Lange, etc.

You say you're not in the parts business, just the watch business. How does it work if I break a crystal or gouge a bezel insert? Just live with it? Always wondered about the longevity of parts availability for micros.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Nikita70 said:


> I was comparing my above mentioned post to getting a new bezel insert for my Rolex. Their point is I cannot have a Pepsi insert because my watch originally came with a Coke insert. Which has nothing to do with a crystal change or waterproof issues.
> 
> I don't want to derail this thread, my original point is how microbrands seem to be more customer friendly than other brands, namely luxury brands such as Rolex, I don't have any experience with PP, AP, Lange, etc.
> 
> You say you're not in the parts business, just the watch business. How does it work if I break a crystal or gouge a bezel insert? Just live with it? Always wondered about the longevity of parts availability for micros.


Yeah, I understood your point, and realize I didn't exactly respond to the point you were making directly. I don't think you're derailing the thread at all, and I'm happy to discuss the issue.

My former watchmaker is an authorized Rolex repair guy. He won't work on any Rolex with aftermarket parts, and I can imagine his reaction to getting a Rolex with the wrong colored bezel, even if it's a genuine Rolex part.

I was in his shop when a guy came in with a rare, and once very valuable "red-depth" Rolex Explorer from the '70's, which had been utterly ruined with aftermarket parts. I could almost see his head getting ready to explode, and his eyes about to bleed. He had to turn the guy away, because he couldn't fix the damage which had been done to it. It wasn't just that there were aftermarket parts - the stock parts had actually been damaged trying to fit the aftermarket ones, and he knew the stock parts couldn't be purchased from Rolex anymore.

I can also imagine why Rolex would have such a policy, refusing that request.

Yes, it's YOUR watch, but it's their "Rolex", meaning, their brand. Your request seems simple enough - just swap the bezel insert, Coke for Pepsi. What's the big deal? But where does it end? Crystal swaps, hand swaps, dial swaps, etc, etc, etc? What if someone wants Tudor parts?

Imagine the nightmare of trying to accommodate all those requests, even the ones which might be absurd, then the difficulty in trying to authenticate a Rolex 10 years from now, with all that going on. It devalues their brand.

If you were Rolex, would you want a bunch of half-a$$ed, one-off mods out in the world, giving people the mistaken impression that you actually produced something like a Rolex Submariner with a green dial, yellow-diamond markers, Pepsi bezel, and Mickey-Mouse hands? I mean, Rolex has made all those things, by themselves, so why not put them all together, right?

I wouldn't want that if I was Rolex, and it's similar to why I don't want people modding my watches. One guy who does it begets three others who think I helped, and who email me to ask for similar help, or want to talk to me about their goofy ideas for their mod.

I cringe when I think of what people will think about my brand based on those mods. I don't even like some prototypes to go out into the world, and won't sell them. When I go to GTG's, and show protos from my own collection, I tag them as protos, and tell people the quality isn't 100% up to production standards.

I'd rather people just buy the watch they want, and leave it as it was designed/made, or buy a bunch of parts off ebay, and assemble your franken watch yourself, but leave my logo off it. That logo is mine, and the design is mine. If you want something different, I don't want my brand on it.

When people ask for my help modding my watches, I politely decline, and beg them not to do it. I've already had a couple of guys email me, telling me they ruined their cases doing mods, and I felt awful telling them I don't sell replacement cases.

I had a guy ask me for help with a crystal swap. I only gave him the info he otherwise could have gotten on his own, before doing the swap, then prayed he would change his mind, or that I wouldn't have to deal with a post-mod warranty claim. I'm still a one-man show, and can't spare the time to deal with that stuff, neither the requests nor the help afterward.

Now, if you need a replacement part, like a bezel insert, crystal, crown, or clasp, and I have the part, that's a horse of a different color. Send me a pic of the part you're replacing, so we can see the damage, and know you're not just hording spare parts (like some modders do), and we'll sell you a replacement part.

There's no industry standard for spare parts retention. I've heard of major brands who can't/won't supply a part in as little as three years after manufacture, whereas I've heard Rolex stocks parts for 45 years, which is amazing, if that's correct.

When I order a new model produced, we typically order 1%-2% extra parts, sometimes more, depending on what they are, and the design, and I have them until they're gone. So far, I've yet to tell anyone I don't have the part they need.

With the Phantom, I ordered a bunch extra of the acrylic crystals. So far, I think we've had maybe 2-3 replacement requests. With the Orthos I/II/C300, I ordered a ton of bezel inserts, and we still have a bunch, even though we've probably sent out 8-10 replacements. We probably have 1-3 pieces of every NTH Subs bezel insert, and so far, I think we've had to replace 3, maybe, but only 2 for damage, and 1 which was lost somehow.

I order extra hands, though rarely need them, and dials (ditto).

Some of the spare parts we order aren't so much for replacement of customer-damaged parts, but to replace parts we reject in QC. I get the parts sent to me so we can just replace them here, rather than sending them back to the factory for re-assembly. The factory always makes extra cases. With those parts, once we do our QC, and a model sells out, and a reasonable time has passed, we'll typically assemble new pieces. That's how I was able to to put together the last few Commander 300's, and some of the Phantom Ghost Riders.

Otherwise, we'll just keep them forever, or, if that seems stupid, I'll send them to a watchmaking school for practice, or I'll use them to modify one of the prototypes, making something like the Basic Blurple, or the Santa Flake.

Last year, we cleaned out a bunch of spare parts to assemble all those "Jellimods" - the Frankenmods our friend John (WUS user Jelliottz) assembled using a bunch of spare and prototype parts, and which we auctioned off for charity, with proceeds going to the groups that support Veterans and prevent cruelty to animals.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

You make many valid points and I agree with most of them. There are definitely certain mods I would not want to be done with any cue I made because as you say with your logo on it it should be your design. 

Generally speaking I am not a watch mod kind of guy. However with a Rolex GMT by changing the insert I can get a different look, basically getting a lot more bang for my buck. I have no desire in modding any of my other watches, yours included. I like them exactly how they are.
Especially the Nazario.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I'm intrigued by modding culture, as I can be cheap (read: do it yourself), I sometimes enjoy customization/personalization, and tinkering tends to leave me with a special sense of affiliation with a specific brand and model. I discovered my pro-mod leanings back when I bought an affordable vintage motorcycle in okay shape that was already partially modded--a beater, essentially. I've done some cool things to the bike, while also introducing more headaches into my life than the mods were probably worth via all things amateur. Would I forego the experience in hindsight? Nah. I tend to learn the most about things in which I'm interested by doing, errors and all, and motorcycle culture always seemed to me to both encourage modification efforts, on the one hand, while also toughening you up by criticizing you for crap attempts, on the other. Was there much to lose financially? Not much, relatively speaking. Would Honda even have serviced the bike in the first instance? I doubt they'd have any more 1979 parts lying around than I or a bike shop could locate online. Do I know this for sure? Nope, but that didn't stop me. Would I recommend it to others? I'm indifferent: I'd honestly share my experience with them, but as it's been mixed, I wouldn't advocate either way.

As with the bike, I learned a lot about watches by opening up a few HMTs, Seikos, and Invictas. I now feel more knowledgeable and passionate about the hobby. At the same time, I've horrified one watchmaker with an early botched mod attempt; I'm sure I made a second watchmaker roll his eyes inside upon presentation of a partially disassembled vintage watch that I couldn't finish a repair job on; and I've wasted a fair deal of money on parts for fleeting modding ideas. Again, it's been a mixed experience for me. Could I have found watchmaking courses? Maybe. Did I? Nah. You learn, and you toughen up to criticism.

The most expensive watch I've opened up, to swap out hands, was the Santa Fe. I'm surprised I did it, because $600-700 is about as much as I'm willing to spend on a watch. I'm sure to Doc's horror, I also sometimes think about getting a brief lyric from an REM song, Nightswimming, somehow input into the case back, for sentimental purposes. But I've become a fan of the brand for several reasons, and I'm especially interested in collecting some of the NTH subs. So, for the reasons I mentioned at the outset, I was willing to play around with one that I had purchased secondhand that already had some blemishes, and a somewhat rough seeming crown/stem (although after reading Doc's QC blog post, I'm sure this is well within standards, and just a WIS-obsessive observation based on anecdotally comparing the crown action on two of my NTH subs). Similarly, given that the NTH subs are tool watches, I was also less concerned about introducing some additional blemishes if they occurred, figuring at worst it'd just add to the "well worn" aesthetic. I now know a little bit more about the Miyota 9015 and the NTH subs build, and I love the franken snowflake hands looks (for what it's worth, Frankenstein was my favorite novel as a kid, and I appreciate that things didn't work out so well for either Victor or his monster). Ultimately, I saved a few dollars, I have an even more unique rare watch (that I now know makes the owner/designer cringe, which is kind of punk rock on top of microbrands being kind of punk rock), and I feel even more "one with" my daily NTH sub companion/tool. And if something goes awry, I know I'm going to have to take a licking from the producer when trying to source a spare.

My conclusions? On many fronts, producers and consumers have shared interests. However, some of their interests differ, and these divergences can be transitory (e.g., you're into modding for a time, and then you're not because of bastardization concerns). If you're going to mod for the idiosyncratic pros, you have to accept several functional/practical cons (that should deter the faint of heart or hobby tourist): by and large, service from the manufacturer is out the window; you can expect headaches; and in most instances, you're the only one who's going to see an increase in value in your one-off, even if others think the modded look or operation is "cool"--your resale value is still likely going to take a hit. I agree with Doc's points, and I modded a watch he designed nonetheless. It's not an either/or debate for me, it's a both/and matter.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Yeah, I understood your point, and realize I didn't exactly respond to the point you were making directly. I don't think you're derailing the thread at all, and I'm happy to discuss the issue.


Thanks for this thoughtful and detailed reply. I too was wondering about this, as I'm still new to the microbrand scene, and I've tended to flip watches too quickly to ever learn much about servicing or replacing damaged parts given limited productions.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Yeah, I understood your point, and realize I didn't exactly respond to the point you were making directly. I don't think you're derailing the thread at all, and I'm happy to discuss the issue.
> 
> My former watchmaker is an authorized Rolex repair guy. He won't work on any Rolex with aftermarket parts, and I can imagine his reaction to getting a Rolex with the wrong colored bezel, even if it's a genuine Rolex part.
> 
> ...


Damn, I felt so guilty now. I am that exact guy who emailed you about swapping crystal. I even set up a thread talking about that (luckily it didn't got much attention). I hope I didn't bring any more problem by people come asking for info. And rest assured that I will never bother you for warranty claim. I fully acknowledge that the problem is mine, not yours to fix.

I used to think opening the caseback may lead to movement failure. When my Armida A9 is running slower than normal, I brought it to a watch maker to have a look. He regulated it by OPENING THE CASEBACK! I was like OMG, what have you done? But it looks very easy and harmless, which made me think heck, I can do that! Then step by step I learned about how the watch works.

It is true as you said, looking at Jelliotz's mod (the Santa Cruz with pencil hands) did inspire me a lot to modify the Nacken crystal. Still it took all of my courage to ask you about that. I really love your story about how you fight with the factory to shave down every millimeters (or even micro-meter?) of the watch to make it as thin as possible. I'm also an architectural student, so I fully understand how you feel when someone wants to change your design. But people's tastes are different, that's why we have Tempus Machina, Bamford, Blaken and so on.

I think those who want to mod a watch themselves, they should fully understand the risk and responsibility they're taking. If they don't, they are an a$$, not you. Again I am truly sorry if you ever feel uncomfortable of my questions. Thank you very much for explaining the risk that you had to take for watch modifying!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Forever8895 said:


> Damn, I felt so guilty now. I am that exact guy who emailed you about swapping crystal. I even set up a thread talking about that (luckily it didn't got much attention). I hope I didn't bring any more problem by people come asking for info. And rest assured that I will never bother you for warranty claim. I fully acknowledge that the problem is mine, not yours to fix.
> 
> I used to think opening the caseback may lead to movement failure. When my Armida A9 is running slower than normal, I brought it to a watch maker to have a look. He regulated it by OPENING THE CASEBACK! I was like OMG, what have you done? But it looks very easy and harmless, which made me think heck, I can do that! Then step by step I learned about how the watch works.
> 
> ...


I wasn't trying to make anyone feel guilty, and you weren't the only one to ask me. I appreciate your understanding how it is from my perspective.

Jelliottz is a friend, so as much as I don't like seeing him put pencil hands on his Santa Cruz, I also trust him (as I would most people) not to try to take advantage of me and my business by making a warranty claim for something he screwed up.

But, as my business grows, not all my customers are guys here on WUS, or guys I know. Every year, there are 3-5 guys who try to pull some BS on me, and some will go online to talk trash if I don't play ball.

Not too long ago, a guy tried to get me to take back a watch after destroying the bracelet trying to size it, then I saw him posting about it on Facebook - using a different name (similar enough to know who he was, but not the name on his order).

That's just one doofus who mangled a bracelet. Now imagine guys like that doing parts swaps.

Also not too long ago, a guy sent us a warranty return, because the watch wouldn't hack anymore.

We got it back, and my watchmaker called BS right away. The caseback had clear signs that it was opened, and if it wasn't obvious, the hacking lever was missing!!!

There's 0% chance we'd have missed that in QC, since the watch can't hack without it, and there's zero chance the guy would have taken 3 months to notice it. He was playing home-watch-repair, and lost the hacking lever, without realizing it, then sent it back, saying it was defective.

Four years back, there was a 25-page thread in this forum, started by a guy who insisted a watch was defective when it wasn't, and made a stink, even after I offered to do an exchange for him. I still see people talking about that one incident, four years later, saying "Doc doesn't stand behind his products". The hell I don't.

When people deal straight with me, I deal straight with them. Tell me you butchered your watch, I'll do what I can to help you out, but I can't help you do something likely to butcher it, and I'll be damned if I should have to deal with fixing it (at my cost) after the butchering.

Part of it too is I know watchmakers hate doing mods. If watchmakers hate it, the odds are good it's not a watchmaker doing the mod, it's some guy who watched a YouTube video.

For crying out loud, Jelliottz started out using home-made tools, like ball-point pens with the ink/points removed, instead of a hands-setting tool, and he's GOOD at mods!

I own two mods, and gave another to my son. I like mods. Mod a $200 Seiko, or even better, a $50 Invicta, or a $40 Tiger Concepts, if you got the bug and can't get it out of your system. Don't mess with a $600 NTH. If you do, you pays your money, and you takes your chances.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> For crying out loud, Jelliottz started out using home-made tools, like ball-point pens with the ink/points removed, instead of a hands-setting tool, and he's GOOD at mods!


Having not been around for the original thread, that Mexican Rolex article of your's and his is a fun read. For anyone who missed it: How to Modify a Watch - The Moflake | The Time Bum


----------



## K-Kirk (May 29, 2017)

Not to change subject but Doc will you be making another run of the Scorpene (I thought another poster said a blue varient may be coming - but wanted to hear from you to validate)?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

ck2k01 said:


> I'm intrigued by modding culture, as I can be cheap (read: do it yourself), I sometimes enjoy customization/personalization, and tinkering tends to leave me with a special sense of affiliation with a specific brand and model. I discovered my pro-mod leanings back when I bought an affordable vintage motorcycle in okay shape that was already partially modded--a beater, essentially. I've done some cool things to the bike, while also introducing more headaches into my life than the mods were probably worth via all things amateur. Would I forego the experience in hindsight? Nah. I tend to learn the most about things in which I'm interested by doing, errors and all, and motorcycle culture always seemed to me to both encourage modification efforts, on the one hand, while also toughening you up by criticizing you for crap attempts, on the other. Was there much to lose financially? Not much, relatively speaking. Would Honda even have serviced the bike in the first instance? I doubt they'd have any more 1979 parts lying around than I or a bike shop could locate online. Do I know this for sure? Nope, but that didn't stop me. Would I recommend it to others? I'm indifferent: I'd honestly share my experience with them, but as it's been mixed, I wouldn't advocate either way.
> 
> As with the bike, I learned a lot about watches by opening up a few HMTs, Seikos, and Invictas. I now feel more knowledgeable and passionate about the hobby. At the same time, I've horrified one watchmaker with an early botched mod attempt; I'm sure I made a second watchmaker roll his eyes inside upon presentation of a partially disassembled vintage watch that I couldn't finish a repair job on; and I've wasted a fair deal of money on parts for fleeting modding ideas. Again, it's been a mixed experience for me. Could I have found watchmaking courses? Maybe. Did I? Nah. You learn, and you toughen up to criticism.
> 
> ...


Doc, is that you?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

hwa said:


> Doc, is that you?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ya, I was a bit meandering with that one. Just procrastinating.

Here's what I'm thinking for my next mod. What do you think, Doc? Maybe an official version for the next, next round of subs?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

K-Kirk said:


> Not to change subject but Doc will you be making another run of the Scorpene (I thought another poster said a blue varient may be coming - but wanted to hear from you to validate)?


There is a blue sunburst version coming.

I'd like to make more of the black at some point, but I have to manage production better than I've been doing. My factory wants me to order at least 50 pieces per version, no more 10 of this, 15 of that, and so I have to try to time production of each version to coincide with the pent-up demand necessary to take up what we're producing.

Personally, I love the Scorpene, and it was the highest-ranked version on the pre-order interest survey we did before the first round of NTH pre-orders. But I think it was a lot of people's second-choice, and not enough people's first choice, so we didn't sell as many as some of the other models, which means I didn't make as many, since I base production numbers on pre-order numbers (or, I did, at the time).

Whatevs, I'm hoping we'll be able to make more of them sooner, rather than later, and I'm sure we'll make more of them eventually.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Doc, is that you?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh come on!

My walls of text have more line breaks.


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Way too much text (albeit very interesting) and way to few pics of docs watches in those last pages...
So, just because it's in my wrist right now...









Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

docvail said:


> I don't know what I'll be doing in ten years. What I do know is this - I'd rather see my company change to adapt to its environment than see it die for a lack of adaptability. If it dies, I'd rather it be said that no one could see the reason coming, than have it said I was stupidly looking the wrong way.
> 
> .


Someone at my old company (was there 15 years) used to say all the time "innovate or die". In my business innovation driven by science is key but every business needs a strategy and adaptability is one asset that a smaller company (not mine) has going for it. 
Being small allows you to be nimble, to make quick decisions and to adapt rapidly. A larger company cannot do this as easily and will hire "experts" upon "experts" (looking st you BCG) to look for ways to adapt and change which usually means lay offs but let's not go there).

So being in tuned w your environment is key and you seem very aware by paying close attention to what others are doing out there in the marketplace.

I have in my past owned some micro brands watches from Helberg to Crepas to Aquadive .... but one thing left me wanting more w the micros. 
Why did I sell these watches? Was it because of bad quality nope , bad movement nope , bad customer service nope , bad price certainly not so what was it that made me want to sell them? What made me want more ?

Part of it I admit is the appeal of the brand ... Yup I admit it, the brand name got me sucked in but why??do i care omega went to the moon ...no, do I care Rolex went deep sea fishing nope, do I care seiko is fully integrated no ... so what was it, what is it that makes the micro less appealing to me even at times when the quality is just there on par w some really good "Swissina or Germina" brands??
Maybe I want that history, maybe I am just shallow maybe I want good resale value but I struggle w keeping micros in my box . right now I do ok work wise and i am very thankful so somewhere I convince myself to get the "real deal" while I still can especially when watches are homages of one another these days. BUT does it really make sense to spend the 9k on that sub?????

if any micro could offer that hook that message, that differentiating factor, that unique look, that I got to have this then I think i would keep them around longer . Monta looks good to me post eterna debacle , nice package at a decent price so I could see that happening. a monta sky quest vs an Oris Aquis could go either way for me because in that price range I think monta offers a better package than Oris. So the value to me is that the Monta seems to offer more bang for the buck in the good price category .
in the sub 1k segment for me the question is why this one vs a seiko w 6r15. First thing that comes to mind for some reason. 
Oddly enough the lower the price the more uniqueness I want because everything north of 3k in Switzerland is marketing that I have long ago made peace with and since it makes little to no sense to spend 3 to 10gs for some irrational reason I find it easier to spend the dollar on them than micros ,,, go figure I think i need to rest now .

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

^^ I'll say the meaning behind Lew and Huey (and later NTH) was a big draw for me. Why - who knows really? Maybe just having it on my wrist reminds me of the meaning behind the name and to apply it to my life. It's not like the sentiment of owning an Omega Moonwatch will somehow make me feel like an astronaut, but it does remind me of the ingenuity of so many people who worked together to put us into space and to remind myself to try to act in the same manner. I suppose that's what L&H and NTH mean to me as well - it's never too late to do something meaningful. I suppose that's at least the hook for me and why I wear them. They look awesome, but what they stand for (and Doc, I take it, as well) is also a private reminder to me to remember what I value and stand for too. If any of that makes sense.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

This thread needs more pictures!!!!




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> This thread needs more pictures!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Alex I'll take things Chris Walken would say for $200

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## I_am_Ned (Dec 21, 2017)

Back on the bracelet from leather. With my very small wrist due to the clasp bend, I find the bracelet extremely comfortable with all the links removed from the 12 o'clock side. The next five days in a different time zone so will have to change the time, which sucks because on its current 10 day timing run, between worn, crown up or dial up overnight, it has gained .7 seconds. Total. I just spent three days in a different time zone and much prefer to have the correct time. I also prefer to not screw up perfection. Why the f do we even have time zones? I love the hell out of this 15 hours a day worn watch.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I_am_Ned said:


> Why the f do we even have time zones?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitude_(book)

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## I_am_Ned (Dec 21, 2017)

Longitude Schmongitude. I don’t want to unscrew the crown every couple days because I can’t get a normal job. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

Maybe an NTH nacken GMT is on the way..........


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

Shockwave said:


> Maybe an NTH nacken GMT is on the way..........


I was thinking this the other day. Like the polar explorer with an orange GMT hand.
I suspect it would add all manner of difficulties for Doc, and I'm guessing fitting it all in the NTH Subs case might be tough (?) , but i'd be at the front of the queue if it ever materialised!


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Doc, please do not make a GMT.

I don’t need any more watches this soon after getting the two from you I just got. Give my bank account a break.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I have no GMT plans.


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> I have no GMT plans.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


We will take that as confirmation that you do, in fact, have GMT plans.

We know that you need to make statements like that to keep your competitors off your tail.

Your secret is safe with us!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> We will take that as confirmation that you do, in fact, have GMT plans.
> 
> We know that you need to make statements like that to keep your competitors off your tail.
> 
> ...


I'm not making a pie-plate sized pocket-watch.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> I'm not making a pie-plate sized pocket-watch.


Now that's just silly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> We will take that as confirmation that you do, in fact, have GMT plans.


GMT most often refers to 24-hr (military) time that can be adjusted, either the hand or 24-hrs around a moveable bezel.

Doc's given us Antiles, Phantom and Devil Ray, and now the new Catalina; they're all 12-hr bezeled...the "poor-man's GMT".

...and to your point about mis-direction, I have a source that told me that Doc's working on a single-hand Roman 48mm dress watch with a pentagon case...

...rumor has it that it'll have a Metorite case and Bronze Dial, too.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



azsuprasm said:


> ...rumor has it that it'll have a Metorite case and Bronze Dial, too.


I heard mother of pearl, engraved, display caseback with a custom (your choice of) serial number too...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Disneydave said:


> azsuprasm said:
> 
> 
> > ...rumor has it that it'll have a Metorite case and Bronze Dial, too.
> ...


And a cabochon crown!


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


>


Every time I've handled one of those Sante Fe models, I've kicked myself for not finding the money when they were originally available. Such a gorgeous dial.

It's even cooler than the Tag Heuer pieces that inspired it.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Agent Sands said:


> Every time I've handled one of those Sante Fe models, I've kicked myself for not finding the money when they were originally available. Such a gorgeous dial.
> 
> It's even cooler than the Tag Heuer pieces that inspired it.


The "rice paper" effect is really cool.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Agent Sands said:


> Every time I've handled one of those Sante Fe models, I've kicked myself for not finding the money when they were originally available. Such a gorgeous dial.
> 
> It's even cooler than the Tag Heuer pieces that inspired it.


Word. Quartz is for suckers.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

The nato attempt was fun, but the DevilRay calls out for its bracelet.

The end links certainly add more bulk, but a 6.5" wrist can still just pull it off.

As the weather heats up, it's fun to feel like I have a little tank on my arm.

It leaves the sense that it is somehow a big ol' hunk of steel that remains at the same time restrained.

Weird but true: it made me think of this this morning:









































(P.S. More hard spacing.)


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

ck2k01 said:


> The nato attempt was fun, but the DevilRay calls out for its bracelet.
> 
> The end links certainly add more bulk, but a 6.5" wrist can still just pull it off.
> 
> ...


That.

Is sooo. Drop. Dead. Gorr Juss......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > Every time I've handled one of those Sante Fe models, I've kicked myself for not finding the money when they were originally available. Such a gorgeous dial.
> ...


It's the coolest, like an all-lume version of the GS Snowflake dial.

If Tag put one out just like it, the Internet would lose its mind with hype about how amazing it is and how Tag is turning things around.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Finally got a wrist shot of the Nazario. I need better lighting for the dial texture, but this is the best my cubicle lighting will do!









And from the porch a few nights ago - a little uneven from using my flashlight:


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

No flashlights here. Just walked from inside out to the garage


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just saw something on Facebook that made me think of these, both from the same blogger friend, who shall remain nameless, lest people stop sending him hilarious BS the rest of us can laugh at...


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Just saw something on Facebook that made me think of these, both from the same blogger friend, who shall remain nameless, lest people stop sending him hilarious BS the rest of us can laugh at...
> 
> View attachment 13185579
> 
> ...


The real weakness in their campaign is that they didn't use the word "craftsmanship" even once!










(Mandatory reference: How to create a unique/successful minimalist watchbrand)


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Speaking of interesting solicitation emails,

I received an email the other day titled "Unmet need"

Sounds a bit hanky panky right? Let's read on:

Dear Sir/Madam,
.
Thanks for your kind interest in (I'm not naming them ) watch.
.
Your valuable opinion means a lot to us...
.
If there is any new watch you will like us to specially produce for you, please feel free to let us know.
.
Thanks for your kind attention.
.
.
God be with you,
.
Kevin

The funny things is this from an established brand with a good dose of heritage. Email looks fake right? However others on WUS have received the same email in the past and according to many it appears to be real, interesting choice of words and all.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> Speaking of interesting solicitation emails,
> 
> I received an email the other day titled "Unmet need"
> 
> ...


My version:

"Here's what we're making, where you can buy it and when. Hope you like it enough to buy it, but if not, we're not changing it, so hope you find something else you like more."

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My version:
> 
> "Here's what we're making, where you can buy it and when. Hope you like it enough to buy it, but if not, we're not changing it, so hope you find something else you like more."
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


I guess I should have given a bit more context. This email was the equivalent of a telemarketing "cold call". I never asked them about anything. Just got on their list a long time back for product info updates.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> I guess I should have given a bit more context. This email was the equivalent of a telemarketing "cold call". I never asked them about anything. Just got on their list a long time back for product info updates.


Meh. Context wouldn't have changed much. It's a bizarre message they sent you.

People send me bizarre stuff sometimes. This hobby attracts some strange cats.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Meh. Context wouldn't have changed much. It's a bizarre message they sent you.
> 
> People send me bizarre stuff sometimes. This hobby attracts some strange cats.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


These ain't just some random strange cats. The is a brand that's been around about 100 years. Which makes this type of marking or whatever even stranger.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> These ain't just some random strange cats. The is a brand that's been around about 100 years. Which makes this type of marking or whatever even stranger.


Maybe I do need context.

If a "heritage" brand is suddenly doing some sort of grassroots, community outreach, that's interesting, if not newsworthy.

What's with the secrecy? Fess with the name, Mysterio.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Chillin








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Maybe I do need context.
> 
> If a "heritage" brand is suddenly doing some sort of grassroots, community outreach, that's interesting, if not newsworthy.
> 
> What's with the secrecy? Fess with the name, Mysterio.


Here you go:

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4583811&share_fid=13788&share_type=t

Anyone receive a similar email from a Ball employee recently


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> Here you go:
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4583811&share_fid=13788&share_type=t
> 
> Anyone receive a similar email from a Ball employee recently


Yup. I've gotten them. Ball seems to be moving into becoming a microbrand! I've had a couple and like them, and I pre-ordered one that's a month delayed but should be arriving soon. So, with the "pre-order" thing and the "what should we make next" tack, they're starting to remind me of a Kickstarter brand. Maybe they are trying to move out of that deadly middle-segment of Swiss watch brands, described in Doc's "Rise and Fall of a Microbrand" thread, and perhaps mimic microbrands to sell each production batch as it's made. Dunno.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Sounds like someone in marketing is trying to think outside of the box. I’ve had their advertisements pop up on my Facebook feed and have come close to buying a preorder but they just haven’t gotten me to bite yet. I’m intrigued by the gas tubes so it’s probably just a matter of time before I do add one to my collection.


----------



## wheelbuilder (Nov 25, 2016)

Dolphin punching and manure spreading...................pure comedy gold.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> Yup. I've gotten them. Ball seems to be moving into becoming a microbrand! I've had a couple and like them, and I pre-ordered one that's a month delayed but should be arriving soon. So, with the "pre-order" thing and the "what should we make next" tack, they're starting to remind me of a Kickstarter brand. Maybe they are trying to move out of that deadly middle-segment of Swiss watch brands, described in Doc's "Rise and Fall of a Microbrand" thread, and perhaps mimic microbrands to sell each production batch as it's made. Dunno.


I mean, they're doing some things differently, if not right, it seems, so it's interesting, and I suppose they deserve credit.

One would think Ball would have the resources which would better enable them to develop a range of models based on the feedback they get, assuming they get a lot of it.

Moving to pre-orders and direct to customer sales seems smart. Soliciting feedback from customers seems smart.

It'll be interesting to see how it works for them, if their pricing changes or not, and if it's something their customers embrace.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Hi there,

I just made an account on doc's website and it says that news are announced via newsletter. Now I don't have the old "newsletter" notifications and was wondering if there is a plan for another batch for the Näcken No-Date Standard in Black. 

I like everything about the watch so I thought I would first try to get one in new condition before the marketplace hunt if possible.

Many thanks!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> doc's website says that news is announced via newsletter.


There's nothing else to know. When we have more available, we'll announce it in the newsletter, and post it to social media.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Have been less active recently and missed a good amount of posts here. Celebrating my comeback with a strap change. If it only wouldn't stink of this vanilla stuff. It's a watchgecko strap. But I looks very nice, and it emphasizes the thinness of this 300m sub 

That's the thing that always draws me back to this piece: it's sooooo thin. It's what won me over in the first place. Sometimes I think if I'd better had taken a modern blue. But then the textured dial hits me again 










Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Love the vintage blue in the sun light.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

One of my bezzie mates, Giles arranged for me to attend RAF Cosford today to assist The British Phantom Aviation Group in the preparation of "Black Mike" for the forthcoming Cosford Air Show, 60,000 visitors are expected for the event, so lots of wash, polish - and most importantly - _ARMING_ the F4 ready for the day, what to wear? Phantom of course:

























Sidewinders deployed, point me at the target..........









Hard work, but a really enjoyable day, with terrific company and Phantom F4 "Black Mike" is now ready to meet the public......... that's worth a pint or three......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Looking forward to it, last year was great. Think I'll wear my Phantom too.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


----------



## wheelbuilder (Nov 25, 2016)

Not an aviation fan, but that is a bad ass looking jet. As a bonus, my name is Mike too! Nice pics.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Hey Doc, I am not sure if you posted a reason why and I missed but I have to ask.

You revealed a few tasty treats a couple of months ago now but why are they posted on your site in the coming soon tab? Sometimes when a dude is alone, all by himself, he needs a few pics to stare at.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Hey Doc, I am not sure if you posted a reason why and I missed but I have to ask.
> 
> You revealed a few tasty treats a couple of months ago now but why are they posted on your site in the coming soon tab? Sometimes when a dude is alone, all by himself, he needs a few pics to stare at.


I assume you mean why are they NOT posted on my website.

Because sometimes when a dude is alone, he can get some work done, if people leave him alone, and don't pester him with nonstop questions. Sometimes the dude has a plan he doesn't feel like explaining.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

If pics are needed, here's one. There are others of this beauty on F29 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

I noticed that the Modern Black Näcken Sub was removed from the website. What would this imply in regard to future batches?

Edit: Was also thinking that the website could be under construction...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Hey Doc, I am not sure if you posted a reason why and I missed but I have to ask.
> 
> You revealed a few tasty treats a couple of months ago now but why are they posted on your site in the coming soon tab? Sometimes when a dude is alone, all by himself, he needs a few pics to stare at.





docvail said:


> I assume you mean why are they NOT posted on my website.
> 
> Because sometimes when a dude is alone, he can get some work done, if people leave him alone, and don't pester him with nonstop questions. Sometimes the dude has a plan he doesn't feel like explaining.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Here's the deal -

I'm not a forum sponsor anymore.

I know I'm not supposed to post links to my site where there's stuff for sale, especially if I'm saying that stuff is for sale.

Apparently I'm not supposed to post ANY links back to my site, including the blog, where there's nothing for sale, because it's on my site, where I have stuff for sale.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't even acknowledge I sell stuff, and not mention it.

So...this is me, not saying I sell stuff, and not saying that stuff I sell will be available on my website, starting in the next two weeks.

I'm not saying if I had stuff for sale, or if I was going to have stuff for sale, I'd announce it in my email newsletter, and on social media, like Facebook, and Instagram. And I'm not saying that when I know the exact start date, I'll announce it there, not here.

Hopefully you guys can find those social media sites, and my pages on those sites, on your own, without me having to post links to them, because I don't want to give anyone a reason to complain, or have those links removed.

Make sense?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Here's the deal -
> 
> I'm not a forum sponsor anymore.
> 
> ...


Hmm, didn't realize that's how that worked. Nonetheless, with > 20k posts, fans would appreciate WUS policy exceptions for substantial contributors :/


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Hmm, didn't realize that's how that worked. Nonetheless, with > 20k posts, fans would appreciate WUS policy exceptions for substantial contributors :/


I don't want to sound like I'm complaining. I'm not. Rules are rules. I'm happy they let me post here at all.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I don't want to sound like I'm complaining. I'm not. Rules are rules. I'm happy they let me post here at all.


Of course. You learn it in torts in your 1L year of law school: there's a rule, and then exceptions get made to the rule, and then the exceptions swallow the rule, and then you make a new rule, and then . . . Oh well, thanks for redirecting to other NTH news sources.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Of course. You learn it in torts in your 1L year of law school: there's a rule, and then exceptions get made to the rule, and then the exceptions swallow the rule, and then you make a new rule, and then . . . Oh well, thanks for redirecting to other NTH news sources.


I actually have no problem with the rules as they're written, nor even as they're enforced. It would be nice to get some sort of explanation in some instances, when the rules seem unclear or vague on some point, but I don't think it's realistic to expect every moderator action to be preceded by a courtesy heads-up message.

I try to remember not to get my pants in a twist, that I'm not a special snowflake, I don't warrant special handling, etc. It's good to be reminded of that sometimes. No one likes it, but that's why it's good, I s'pose. Imagine the internet if everyone believed they were unique, and deserving of special treatment...


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

docvail said:


> I actually have no problem with the rules as they're written, nor even as they're enforced. It would be nice to get some sort of explanation in some instances, when the rules seem unclear or vague on some point, but I don't think it's realistic to expect every moderator action to be preceded by a courtesy heads-up message.
> 
> I try to remember not to get my pants in a twist, that I'm not a special snowflake, I don't warrant special handling, etc. It's good to be reminded of that sometimes. No one likes it, but that's why it's good, I s'pose. Imagine the internet if everyone believed they were unique, and deserving of special treatment...


Are we allowed to post links that others might find useful?


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I’m not unique and deserving of special treatment? What a crock of


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

KiwiWomble said:


> Are we allowed to post links that others might find useful?


I believe so, but this is one of those points which seems unclear.

The rules say you can't post a link to a commercial website unless you're a sponsor, and it's clear that the mods won't allow ME to post such links to my own site.

That said, almost every website is commercial in SOME way these days, even blog sites, and unless I'm misreading them, the rules don't say "only the person who owns the site is prohibited from posting a link to it", they just say the links are prohibited.

And yet, many discussions on the forum include a link out to a commercial website, within the context of discussing some watch and details located at that site.

So, my interpretation is that the mods agree among themselves that any forum member is allowed to post a link out to a commercial site, so long as the member posting the link has no affiliation with whoever owns the site.

That's not really what the rules say, but that's how the rules are enforced.

These are the rules which I think are applicable to the situation:

_5. No posts promoting raffles, auctions, surveys, contests, coupons, marketing campaigns, commercial ventures, businesses, or related activities will be allowed without prior approval by WatchUSeek. All non-sponsors who wish to make posts of this nature should contact an Administrator, Moderator at Large, or a forum Moderator.

13. WatchUSeek's policy regarding links, URLs, or site/entity naming inside posts, signatures, profiles, homepage hyperlinks, usernames, and avatars:
a. links to or naming of personal non-commercial websites/pages/content are permitted. Moderators reserve the right to delete any questionable naming or links
b. links to or naming of commercial ventures/websites/pages/content are prohibited unless you are a Sponsor._

Again, I understand that the mods are looking to enforce the spirit of the rules, if not the letter of them, but without the rules being more explicit, delineating that such links are permitted, so long as they're not posted by the people who stand to benefit from them, it could look like selective enforcement.

I don't think it is. It may just look like it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

After five years in business, I had my second charge back dispute (unrelated to stolen credit card numbers) recently.

The first was really a non-event. A guy sent a watch back for a refund, and filed the dispute as soon as the package was confirmed delivered to my PO box. Kind of a d1ck move on his part, but whatevs, I issued the refund, and the chargeback dispute was closed. It never got to the point of needing any review or resolution, and so it doesn't even show on my merchant record as having been filed.

Short version on this recent incident - a guy pre-ordered a watch, gave us his office as his delivery address, then moved, but never contacted us to update his order details, despite us sending out half a dozen messages imploring pre-order customers to let us know if their address had changed, so we can update the address on their order.

Sure enough, we shipped to his old office, where delivery was confirmed. Rather than driving 6 miles to get the watch, he filled my email inbox with venom, and filed a dispute.

Yesterday, I saw that my account was charged, which meant I lost the dispute, despite providing ample documentation that we did all we could, and delivery was confirmed to the address he provided with his order.

I wasn't given any explanation why I lost, so I sent in an inquiry, and got this back today...









Boo-yah.

Five years in business, thousands of watches shipped, only two chargeback disputes, one of which was removed from the record as being a non-dispute, and the other ruled in my favor.

Perfect records. This is what they look like.


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> Boo-yah.
> 
> Five years in business, thousands of watches shipped, only two chargeback disputes, one of which was removed from the record as being a non-dispute, and the other ruled in my favor.
> 
> Perfect records. This is what they look like.


Reading between the lines, that sounds like a challenge...

Only messing. Certainly won't be from me - just sized the bracelet on the Turquoise DR that I recently picked up from customs.

Now just to round off the edges on the glidelock for complete awesomeness.

Happy days


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

I've now joined the double post club


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchuck said:


> I've now joined the double post club


Yeah, the forum software seems to be defaulting to the double-post lately.

When you click "post reply", and it takes you to the advanced post editing page, don't click "post" again. Right-click on the thread title, and confirm your post doesn't appear before you post it again.

I think someone took our T-bird away, because that's not fun-fun-fun.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Devil Ray rocks








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Mil6161 said:


> Devil Ray rocks
> View attachment 13196157
> 
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


That's such a nice watch. So classy. I keep kicking myself that I never got my stuff together to get in on the Devil Ray order. (Turquoise would have been my shiznit!)

But, I am self-centered enough that I can still brag that I pre-ordered my Santa Cruz in a B&B in Santa Cruz, CA. So silly.

I'm considering parting ways with this one. After a solid year, plus, I have found that I gravitate towards my older blue dial/ orange bezel orthos in most cases...










I wish I could get in on every pre-order and then just sell the ones I don't like after the fact. Ironically, it's the fact that I do not have time to study, price, and sell watches that land me in this predicament. Time....so fickle.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

[mini-rant on]

People keep asking me if the dial on one of my watches is a "fume" dial. I've had at least six people ask me that in the last week.

First off, it's "Fumé" ("foo-me", or "foo-may", depending on how you hear it), French for "smoke". I'm 99% certain most of the people who ask me are thinking it's pronounced "fyoom", as it is in English, but it isn't.

Secondly, it really means nothing, but H.Moser & Cie made it semi-famous by calling their dials "Fumé", and now so, so, so many other brands are picking up on it. Evant and Undone, both low-cost micros, have especially helped to make it a staple of every noob WIS's vocabulary.

Literally, it means nothing. There's no such process as "Fumé" when it comes to making dials. There's no smoke involved, and no mirrors.

There is one thing they all have in common - a color fade. That's all it is. It's done with an airbrush. I know, because I just toured a dial factory, and that's how it's done.

In some cases, the effect is accentuated with an underlying dial texture, usually scored into the dial, such as vertical or radial brushing. When it's radial, we often call that "sunburst", or "sunray".

So, I do a dial with both a sunray (or vertical brushed) finish, AND a color-fade, and everyone asks me, "OOoohhh, is that a fume dial?" As if it's some sort of super-luxurious special technique, only taught in the salons of the continent.

And seriously, if you're looking at a picture, why ask me? You see what it looks like, right? How is my answer going to change your opinion of it? What do you think the difference is, if you can't tell by looking, whether it is or is not a "Fumé" dial?

It's like when someone asks me what color something is, when they're looking at a picture of it.

"What color is that, orange, or tangerine?"

Oh for crying out loud! Look at it!!! What does it look like to you?

If you don't know what one looks like, how would you know to ask if the one you're looking at is one? Was that just a good guess, or is that the first question you ask about every watch you see?

I don't even know what to say in response.

"No, it's a color-fade, sunray dial." That's what it actually is, unless you really want to be specific, in which case, it's an airbrushed color-fade, radially-scored dial.

Fume (or Fumé) is a made-up word. The next person who asks me a question with a made-up word is getting an entire sentence of made-up words in response.

"It's a zulumarzipan-cecilmade dial, with a telliform-silicric-enamel coating. They have to be made in a gashouse, in complete _silencio_, lest they crack from sound vibrations while curing."

Madness, I tell you.

[end rant\]


----------



## skylinegtr_34 (May 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> "It's a zulumarzipan-cecilmade dial, with a telliform-silicric-enamel coating. They have to be made in a gashouse, in complete _silencio_, lest they crack from sound vibrations while curing."


That is a winner move for selling a product, just needs a confusing version number like "telliform-silicric-enamel coating v1.32"


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Here you go... Watch Wonderland special edition.

DevilFox Apnea Trainer.

Looks mighty good Chris! But no funds now


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

Somemore pics. Someone please buy all of them so that I don't need to use my credit card


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> [mini-rant on]
> 
> People keep asking me if the dial on one of my watches is a "fume" dial. I've had at least six people ask me that in the last week.
> 
> ...


Like "whilver" ? 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Rhorya said:


> Like "whilver" ?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Whilver fumé telliform silicric. TM Janis Trading


----------



## wheelbuilder (Nov 25, 2016)

LOL at the fume rant. Good stuff. If I hear "punches well above it's price point". again over on the Dive forum, I feel like I might actually never go online again.


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

You should put out a fumed glass dial just for those people (which makes me wonder actually, whether a glass dial would be possible or practical)


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

skuzapo said:


> You should put out a fumed glass dial just for those people (which makes me wonder actually, whether a glass dial would be possible or practical)


A little pricey but there is at least one with a stained glass dial.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

jamesezra said:


> Here you go... Watch Wonderland special edition.
> 
> DevilFox Apnea Trainer.
> 
> Looks mighty good Chris! But no funds now


Watch Wonderland must consider the US to be in outer space. Because they're charging shipping. But nice looking watch.


----------



## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

wheelbuilder said:


> Good stuff. If I hear "punches well above it's price point". again over on the Dive forum, I feel like I might actually never go online again.


Ah, watch reviewer cliches. The boxing analogy is ridiculously overused. The one that gets me is "workhorse movement" when describing the ETA 2824-2. What are all the other movements? Thoroughbreds? Ponies? Clydesdales? Show horses?


----------



## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

docvail said:


> [mini-rant on]
> 
> People keep asking me if the dial on one of my watches is a "fume" dial. I've had at least six people ask me that in the last week.
> 
> ...


Ok for the record it is neither foo-me", or "foo-may. The oo part is completely inaccurate and there is nothing in English you can write that can remotely get close to the 'u' in fumé even though the word doesn't even exist but fumée does.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

jmanlay said:


> Ok for the record it is neither foo-me", or "foo-may. The oo part is completely inaccurate and there is nothing in English you can write that can remotely get close to the 'u' in fumé even though the word doesn't even exist but fumée does.


Trying to explain the dutch (or french for that matter) "u" sound to an English speaking person is a challenge, even when talking in person... Add the dutch "oo" (oh), dutch "oe" (ooh), and dutch "eu" (ehh, but not quite) in the mix, and they think you're saying the same thing 4 times...

English is a funny language. They have so many ways of writing sounds that sound the same. Sometimes i think they've lost a few sounds over the course of time, but still use the various now meaningless ways of spelling...

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> [mini-rant on]
> 
> People keep asking me if the dial on one of my watches is a "fume" dial. I've had at least six people ask me that in the last week.
> 
> ...


Sell left handed smoke shifters


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

jamesezra said:


> Here you go... Watch Wonderland special edition.
> 
> DevilFox Apnea Trainer.
> 
> Looks mighty good Chris! But no funds now


Looks sweet, and I even find the novelty breath timer thingy to be kind of fun. I think I'm good with one DR, but I definitely dig the new variant.


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Preordered the Näcken Modern Blue today through watchgauge.com. If only it was October already! (That's the estimated shipping time).

I wonder how many Näcken Modern Blues have been produced so far? You don't see many of them online, and some people that posted pics of it on this thread have meanwhile sold it...


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

karmadrome said:


> Preordered the Näcken Modern Blue today through watchgauge.com. If only it was October already! (That's the estimated shipping time).
> 
> I wonder how many Näcken Modern Blues have been produced so far? You don't see many of them online, and some people that posted pics of it on this thread have meanwhile sold it...


Ya am also dreading the October wait on the Catalina... 
Doc, can't you give your factory a good wall of text on why they should start production the minute preorder closes? Or a chinese wall of characters would be more effective maybe.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Watch Wonderland must consider the US to be in outer space. Because they're charging shipping. But nice looking watch.


I don't understand.

They're in Singapore. Why wouldn't they charge shipping?

Also, I'm in the US, and I charge shipping.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> I don't understand.
> 
> They're in Singapore. Why wouldn't they charge shipping?
> 
> Also, I'm in the US, and I charge shipping.


Because the website banner reads as follows? 'FREE SHIPPING WORLDWIDE. OUTER-SPACE DELIVERY EXTRA'

Your site doesn't prominently advertise free shipping...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jmanlay said:


> Ok for the record it is neither foo-me", or "foo-may. The oo part is completely inaccurate and there is nothing in English you can write that can remotely get close to the 'u' in fumé even though the word doesn't even exist but fumée does.





Wimads said:


> Trying to explain the dutch (or french for that matter) "u" sound to an English speaking person is a challenge, even when talking in person... Add the dutch "oo" (oh), dutch "oe" (ooh), and dutch "eu" (ehh, but not quite) in the mix, and they think you're saying the same thing 4 times...
> 
> English is a funny language. They have so many ways of writing sounds that sound the same. Sometimes i think they've lost a few sounds over the course of time, but still use the various now meaningless ways of spelling...
> 
> Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


I just calls 'em likes I sees 'em, or in this case, hears 'em.









Listen for yourselves. Sounds like she's saying "foo-mee" or "foo-may" to me, but make up your own minds.

Whatever she's saying, how would you spell that, phonetically?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wimads said:


> Ya am also dreading the October wait on the Catalina...
> Doc, can't you give your factory a good wall of text on why they should start production the minute preorder closes? Or a chinese wall of characters would be more effective maybe.
> 
> Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


We actually started production already, and pre-orders aren't closed.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Because the website banner reads as follows? 'FREE SHIPPING WORLDWIDE. OUTER-SPACE DELIVERY EXTRA'
> 
> Your site doesn't prominently advertise free shipping...


Ahhhhh....now I follow.

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll mention it to them.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> Ahhhhh....now I follow.
> 
> Thanks for the heads-up. I'll mention it to them.


No worries. The special edition does look awesome. And the pricing is awesome. The shipping is what gave me pause... rubbed me the wrong way. But maybe just oversight on their part.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Because the website banner reads as follows? 'FREE SHIPPING WORLDWIDE. OUTER-SPACE DELIVERY EXTRA'
> 
> Your site doesn't prominently advertise free shipping...


Mentioned it to them. They agree that it's a mistake. They're on it.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I just calls 'em likes I sees 'em, or in this case, hears 'em.
> 
> View attachment 13202259
> 
> ...


I listened for myself. You're just reconfirming my point. Can't explain how to pronounce "u" to an English person, even in person. You're just not hearing the difference... 
For the sake of it, type "uur" and "oer" in google translate for dutch. Maybe then you percieve the difference 

And you can't spell it phonetically in English, because there's no sound like that in English...  s don't know how I'd go about that..

Edit: I think the "u" of the English word fume might actually come closer than "oo". Phonetically that would result in fjuw-mee, just leave out the "j" and "w" sounds in it and you're there. In dutch I'd simply write fuu-mee, not sure if that would get the same message across in English though.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> I listened for myself. You're just reconfirming my point. Can't explain how to pronounce "u" to an English person, even in person. You're just not hearing the difference...
> For the sake of it, type "uur" and "oer" in google translate for dutch. Maybe then you percieve the difference
> 
> And you can't spell it phonetically in English, because there's no sound like that in English...  s don't know how I'd go about that..
> ...


It's exactly pronounced like the German 'Ü'. I know this doesn't help the English-speaking folks much though...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> I listened for myself. You're just reconfirming my point. Can't explain how to pronounce "u" to an English person, even in person. You're just not hearing the difference...
> For the sake of it, type "uur" and "oer" in google translate for dutch. Maybe then you percieve the difference
> 
> And you can't spell it phonetically in English, because there's no sound like that in English...  s don't know how I'd go about that..
> ...





karmadrome said:


> It's exactly pronounced like the German 'Ü'. I know this doesn't help the English-speaking folks much though...


I think you're both confirming my point, the one in my rant.

If you speak English, why are you butchering a made-up, "make me sound like I know what I'm talking about" French word just to ask me about something you can see with your own two eyes?

Whatever the French/German/Dutch word for "car" is, I don't ask people if that's their _____ in their driveway, because I'd sound like an idiot, or a pretentious wanker, or some combination thereof. I just ask if that's their car. We're speaking English, I use English words.

If we had a single word as good as schadenfreude, I'd use it, but we don't, so in that context, using schadenfreude makes sense, and I'm anticipating some German-speaker weighing in just to say it's not even a word they commonly use, but English speakers adopted for lack of a better one.

Fume is a made-up word in this context. It literally translates as "smoke". If someone simply said, "is that a 'smoke' dial", the question would be closer to making sense, but of course if the person asking realized that it just meant "smoke", they'd realize it would also sound silly, and wouldn't ask the question at all, more than likely.

Me saying "it's a color fade", or "it's airbrushed" is actually me being literal, and precise, which is how I like to be when someone asks me a question, but also why I don't know what to make of it when people ask me nonsense questions, like "is that a fume dial", which is sort of like "what color orange is that".

It's also a bit like someone mis-pronouncing Jaeger Le Coultre, thinking they're right, and that they sound smart for getting it right, but not realizing, they're actually wrong, and they sound even more stupid for over-pronouncing it incorrectly in an attempt to sound more knowledgeable than they actually are.

If you're not sure - and most people should be unsure, way more often than not - just say "JLC".

It's okay to admit you don't know what you're talking about, and to shoot for the easiest/closest target. Maybe instead of asking me if the color-fade dial is a "fume" dial, you can ask the next person who calls something a "fume" dial what that means. Put them on the spot. See how they react.

I guarantee most of the people - including the brands - using the word don't know what it really means, literally, as in they don't know how that look is achieved, or figuratively, meaning they don't know it's just French for "smoke", and thus is just a made-up word to describe how something looks, which you can see for yourself, by looking, and doesn't require me to tell you what you're looking at - if you just freaking look at it.

I think it's also like "cutting out the middle man", "minimalist", and "affordable luxury" - tired, overused cliches which are now just completely wrong when used by most people using them.

You're not cutting out the middle man, you are him. You're not minimalist, you mean modernist, or more specifically, "Bauhaus", but you don't know what that really means, because you didn't bother to learn, so you missed it, by a country mile. There's nothing "luxurious" about a $100 quartz Daniel Wellington clone.

Get outta here.

Maybe that's how I'll handle it from now on. Just verbal jiu-jitsu everyone, like my old boss did.

"Is that a fume dial?"

"Tell me what you think that means."

"You know, like _____ does."

"Have you seen ____'s dials?"

"Yes."

"Does this look like those?"

"Yes, that's why I'm asking, if it's 'fume'."

"Tell me what you think that means."

"..."


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> If we had a single word as good as schadenfreude, I'd use it, but we don't, so in that context, using schadenfreude makes sense, and I'm anticipating some German-speaker weighing in just to say it's not even a word they commonly use, but English speakers adopted for lack of a better one.


Schadenfreude is a commonly used term in German, but I won't go into detail how to properly pronounce it as an English native speaker


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



karmadrome said:


> Schadenfreude is a commonly used term in German, but I won't go into detail how to properly pronounce it as an English native speaker


Fair enough.

I'm sure I've done a lousy job in explaining my point in the rant.

There's no special technique or process used to make a dial with the appearance people are calling "fume", and therefore, it doesn't need a special word. H.Moser & Cie gave it a special word anyway, because they're Swiss, they're expensive, they like the sound of French words, and there's nothing remotely romantic in what's actually involved in making one.

It's not like "guilloche". That's a specific process, a high-end and complex, labor-intensive technique. It doesn't really have a direct translation. The process has been otherwise described as engine-turning, which is less elegant as a phrase (not because it's easier to say, but because it's two generic words rather than one specific word), and not really any more descriptive than simply, "guilloche" - assuming you know what that means.

If you saw a guilloche dial, and didn't know the word for it, you'd ask, perhaps. Once you've seen a guilloche dial, you'd never mistake anything else for one, and you'd use that term, correctly, forever thereafter. To see one is to know what the word means.









"Fume" means "smoke". There's no such process in dial-making. "Fume" sounds better than "smoke", I guess, if you speak French, but there's still no such thing as a "fume" or "smoke" process.

When I want a dial with a color-fade, I say to my factory, "gimme a color fade dial. Start with Pantone XXX at the center, and end with Pantone YYY at the edge." To me, therefore, it's a "color-fade" dial.

The process involved in making that effect is just airbrushing. Someone stands there, and literally paints the dial with an airbrush.

Call it a "color-fade" dial. Call it an "airbrush dial". Don't come at me with faux terms because some other company uses them. Do I look like that guy?

If you're looking at it, and it has a color-fade, you can see the color-fade. There's no need to ask me if it has a color-fade. If I show you a picture of someone holding up 3 fingers, you don't ask me if he's holding up 3 fingers. Do you see 3 fingers or not?

If you see a color-fade, it might make sense to ask if it's an air-brushed dial. That actually does make sense, to me, if you asked me. I'd say, "yes, it's done with an airbrush", and I'd feel good that I was able to answer your question.

Asking me, "is that a fume dial?" makes no sense, because I don't know if you even know what the word means (and because it means nothing to me), or if I'll sound like a pretentious, long-winded a$$ explaining it to you (probably, I would).

Anyone who knows what "fume" means in this context wouldn't ask the question. I am therefore left to wonder how I should answer, and if I can do so in a way that doesn't make the person feel silly for asking, in much the same way I'm incapable of avoiding making you feel silly asking me if the guy is holding up 3 fingers.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Reminds me of the poen "The Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den" -

Pinyin:

«.Shī Shì shí shī shǐ.»

Shíshì shīshì Shī Shì, shì shī, shì shí shí shī.

Shì shíshí shì shì shì shī.

Shí shí, shì shí shī shì shì.

Shì shí, shì Shī Shì shì shì.

Shì shì shì shí shī, shì shǐ shì, shǐ shì shí shī shìshì.

Shì shí shì shí shī shī, shì shíshì.

Shíshì shī, Shì shǐ shì shì shíshì.

Shíshì shì, Shì shǐ shì shí shì shí shī.

Shí shí, shǐ shí shì shí shī shī, shí shí shí shī shī.

Shì shì shì shì.

English:

«.Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den.»

In a stone den was a poet called.Shi Shi, who was a lion addict, and had resolved to eat ten lions.

He often went to the market to look for lions.

At ten o’clock, ten lions had just arrived at the market.

At that time, Shi had just arrived at the market.

He saw those ten lions, and using his trusty arrows, caused the ten lions to die.

He brought the corpses of the ten lions to the stone den.

The stone den was damp. He asked his servants to wipe it.

After the stone den was wiped, he tried to eat those ten lions.

When he ate, he realized that these ten lions were in fact ten stone lion corpses.

Try to explain this matter.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

Disneydave said:


> Reminds me of the poem "The Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den"


Ugh.  We're getting into enough trouble trying to deal with sounds that just plain don't exist in another language.

Tonal languages are just going to make things even more confusing...


----------



## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I just calls 'em likes I sees 'em, or in this case, hears 'em.
> 
> View attachment 13202259
> 
> ...


FUU MAI but the FUU is essentially unpronounceable by native English speakers . Pronounce it like u r trying to blow in a whistle w your mouth while saying FUU MAI


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

Shay-den-FUU-may!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jmanlay said:


> FUU MAI but the FUU is essentially unpronounceable by native English speakers . Pronounce it like u r trying to blow in a whistle w your mouth while saying FUU MAI


You're conversing with native English speaker who learned to speak Chinese Mandarin fairly fluently. Mandarin has some words with sounds you don't hear in English.

I also studied French back in school. Just one year, because I hated it, but still, I didn't hate it because I couldn't pronounced "u", and I switched to Spanish, which, as you might guess, I was also pretty good at, despite the language having some letters/sounds which don't really have English equivalents.

Stop trying to make it seem more complicated than it is. I listened to the pronunciation. Phonetically, it's foo-me, or foo-may, and either way (or, if you insist, as it seems you do, neither way), it's not something English-speaking watch-geeks should need to pronounce if all they're doing is asking me if the color-fade dial they're looking at has a color-fade, since that's what "fume" dials have.

Forget I brought up the pronunciation. I should have known better. It wasn't necessary to make my point, and clearly, it only distracted from the point.

Fume dials are just color-fade dials, done with airbrushing. No French words needed. Let's stop calling them fume, or at least, stop asking me about them using French words, just in case the people saying we English speakers can't form the sounds correctly are actually right, and we can't.

God forbid someone hears us mis-pronouncing a non-English word. That'll be WAY more embarrassing than me forcing you to tell me what you think the non-English word you're mis-pronouncing actually means.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

And this is why I like the word "beer". It's pretty much the same everywhere. Biere, bier, bira, bir, beer. They all work. I know. I've used them. If it doesn't work, then cervesa.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Mentioned it to them. They agree that it's a mistake. They're on it.


Not to change the subject from discussion about the pronunciation of the letter "u" (j/k; it's more interesting than half the other forum posts elsewhere), but did Watch Wonderland happen to mention if they were "on it" by removing the banner and still charging for shipping, or keeping the banner and refunding for shipping, or didn't they say? Asking for a friend. I didn't buy another NTH watch when there's not going to be more subs to not order no time soon (I think I got all the double negatives correct there).

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You're conversing with native English speaker who learned to speak Chinese Mandarin fairly fluently. Mandarin has some words with sounds you don't hear in English.
> 
> I also studied French back in school. Just one year, because I hated it, but still, I didn't hate it because I couldn't pronounced "u", and I switched to Spanish, which, as you might guess, I was also pretty good at, despite the language having some letters/sounds which don't really have English equivalents.
> 
> ...


Since I was born and raised there for 20 something years i am pretty sure how to pronounce fumé which would be the same as fumée but what do I know I was just trying to help and give a technic so one could pronounce it properly.
Good luck with all the fumé dials maybe on the description it should read airbrushed ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Not to change the subject from discussion about the pronunciation of the letter "u" (j/k; it's more interesting than half the other forum posts elsewhere), but did Watch Wonderland happen to mention if they were "on it" by removing the banner and still charging for shipping, or keeping the banner and refunding for shipping, or didn't they say? Asking for a friend. I didn't buy another NTH watch when there's not going to be more subs to not order no time soon (I think I got all the double negatives correct there).
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


They didn't say. They only acknowledged it was an inconsistency.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> They didn't say. They only acknowledged it was an inconsistency.


Thanks!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jmanlay said:


> Since I was born and raised there for 20 something years i am pretty sure how to pronounce fumé which would be the same as fumée but what do I know I was just trying to help and give a technic so one could pronounce it properly.
> Good luck with all the fumé dials maybe on the description it should read airbrushed ...


I'm certain you know how to pronounce it. Never doubted it.

I'm not certain why you're convinced an English speaker like me, someone who's learned to speak at least three other foreign languages, including French, wouldn't be capable of listening to someone pronounce it, and then accurately describe that phonetically.

Even if the person I heard pronounce it wasn't pronouncing it correctly, this whole thing started when I tried to demonstrate the phonetic difference between how English speakers pronounce fume and how it's pronounced in this context. Even if she was wrong in how she said it, she didn't pronounce it how an English speaker would pronounce fume.

This isn't "yanni" vs "laurel". It's "foo-me/foo-may" versus someone telling me I can't even get the phonetic spelling right because I'm a native English speaker, and...I dunno, being a native English speaker somehow impairs my hearing and/or my ability to put together an adequate phonetic spelling which would demonstrate to other native English speakers that it certainly isn't "fyoom".

I gotta get off the internet. I started out trying to be funny, and ended up debating whether or not I can correctly transcribe "fume" phonetically. I'm not drunk enough for this.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Doc, I take back what I said before about 3d renders not winning any glamor awards... The new ones in the upcoming releases section on your website look great!


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

docvail said:


> They're made in proportion to how well they sell in pre-order.
> 
> View attachment 12711239


Doc, are these numbers the total production numbers, or the number of watches for each production run?


----------



## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'm certain you know how to pronounce it. Never doubted it.
> 
> I'm not certain why you're convinced an English speaker like me, someone who's learned to speak at least three other foreign languages, including French, wouldn't be capable of listening to someone pronounce it, and then accurately describe that phonetically.
> 
> ...


Only one solution to fix this


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

karmadrome said:


> Doc, are these numbers the total production numbers, or the number of watches for each production run?


Neither.

They were the total numbers as of that date.

I stopped keeping track. I couldn't tell you what the production numbers are for each model without spending two hours poring through my records compiling them.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jmanlay said:


> Only one solution to fix this


Gimme!

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Come on, everyone knows fume is the same thing as smoke. Just like a clip is the same thing as a magazine.

Right Doc? :-|


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ratfacedgit said:


> Come on, everyone knows fume is the same thing as smoke. Just like a clip is the same thing as a magazine.
> 
> Right Doc? :-|


Ahma clip yer magazine, homey.

Seriously, the watch-geek tendency to get side-tracked debating beside-the-point details never ceases to amaze me, certainly no less than my own tendency to walk boldly into that pitfall, time and again, adding beside-the-point details bound for debate, when I really ought to know better by now.

If there's someone on the internet who knows anything, he'll find something to argue about in almost anything I post.

I should take a course in minimalist writing, if such a course exists. Maybe I'll start making all my posts look like Ikea assembly instructions. No words, just pictures.

This is how you assemble the Krakkluuver side-table...

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)




----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Oh man, that Devil Fox is awesome. I thought that was a joke, like a forgery or somebody got clever with photoshop.

My wife is absolutely going to kill me if I get another watch...dayum, this is a real dilemma!


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Toonces said:


> Oh man, that Devil Fox is awesome. I thought that was a joke, like a forgery or somebody got clever with photoshop.
> 
> My wife is absolutely going to kill me if I get another watch...dayum, this is a real dilemma!


----------



## wheelbuilder (Nov 25, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Ahma clip yer magazine, homey.
> 
> Seriously, the watch-geek tendency to get side-tracked debating beside-the-point details never ceases to amaze me, certainly no less than my own tendency to walk boldly into that pitfall, time and again, adding beside-the-point details bound for debate, when I really ought to know better by now.
> 
> ...


There is.............Clear Writing For Successful Prosecution.


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

Are the new nacken's out now? Anyone have a blue modern nacken with pics?


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Shockwave said:


> Are the new nacken's out now? Anyone have a blue modern nacken with pics?


Second that. The world needs more Näcken Modern Blue pics.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

karmadrome said:


> Second that. The world needs more Näcken Modern Blue pics.


Actually I haven't used mine very much. Yet. Could only find one picture, but I guess anything is better than nothing 









Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Now we talking peat but spelled with a oo sound.


jmanlay said:


> Only one solution to fix this


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

docvail said:


> It's all good.
> 
> I'm not saying I'd never make a titanium watch, or a bronze watch, for that matter.
> 
> ...


Was about to ask about titanium but then sense got the better of me and used the search function.

Titanium is something I'm looking for due to pretty severe nickel rash - to the extent that I'm now reluctant to purchase even 316L (SARB035 crown has shown signs of causing irritation).

There really aren't that many small to mid size titanium diver options out there, closest I've found is the Steinhart but then they go and put a stainless case back on the watch ?

With regard to the 3rd option you've mentioned Doc, is hypoallergenic one of the criteria you're looking into? And has there been any further exploration into this?

Cheers,

Ian.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ian_61 said:


> Was about to ask about titanium but then sense got the better of me and used the search function.
> 
> Titanium is something I'm looking for due to pretty severe nickel rash - to the extent that I'm now reluctant to purchase even 316L (SARB035 crown has shown signs of causing irritation).
> 
> ...


Not hypoallergenic per se, but the metal I was looking at was low in nickel content - about 5%.


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Thanks Doc.

Curious stuff that metallurgy witchcraft. 316L SS with 10-14% nickel is typically safer to wear than 304 SS with 8%. Go figure...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ojibway Bob said:


> Now we talking peat but spelled with a oo sound.


C'mon man, Talisker 10 is a classic, and a very nice tasting whisky at that.
Though, of course, if peat is not your thing, then the best option (imo) to go for should be Bunnahabhain 12y.o. - all the marine notes, complexity, and brininess, but without a hint of peat corruption.









(and, of course, there's always Hibiki Harmony for a complex, light, non-scotch blend...


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

Ian_61 said:


> Was about to ask about titanium but then sense got the better of me and used the search function.
> 
> Titanium is something I'm looking for due to pretty severe nickel rash - to the extent that I'm now reluctant to purchase even 316L (SARB035 crown has shown signs of causing irritation).
> 
> There really aren't that many small to mid size titanium diver options out there, closest I've found is the Steinhart but then they go and put a stainless case back on the watch ?


MWW have a Kickstarter right now for a titanium tribute to the old Seiko SUS if that's your style.

Not sure about the case back though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

dmnc said:


> MWW have a Kickstarter right now for a titanium tribute to the old Seiko SUS if that's your style.
> 
> Not sure about the case back though.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Most of that case back is a display window on the MWW sus

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jmanlay said:


> Ok for the record it is neither foo-me", or "foo-may. The oo part is completely inaccurate and there is nothing in English you can write that can remotely get close to the 'u' in fumé even though the word doesn't even exist but fumée does.


Indeed, the French "u" is absent from English sounds, yet "Fumé" does exist, it's the adjective corresponding to "smoked".
And the name corresponds to an old decorative technique that makes perfect sense in watch making: take your dial atop a smoky burning candle. It's going to get "smoked" that is a light layer of brownish grey will be deposited on the dial. Due to convection effects, the translucent layer of brownish grey will be more pronounced towards the sides of the dial and almost absent in the center.
If you're satisfied with the result, lacquer the dial and you're done. Else, wipe and try again...

Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pakz said:


> Indeed, the French "u" is absent from English sounds, yet "Fumé" does exist, it's the adjective corresponding to "smoked".
> And the name corresponds to an old decorative technique that makes perfect sense in watch making: take your dial atop a smoky burning candle. It's going to get "smoked" that is a light layer of brownish grey will be deposited on the dial. Due to convection effects, the translucent layer of brownish grey will be more pronounced towards the sides of the dial and almost absent in the center.
> If you're satisfied with the result, lacquer the dial and you're done. Else, wipe and try again...
> 
> Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


I stand corrected.

The next time someone asks if my dial is a fume, I think I'll just go with "airbrushed".

It would be awesome if the other companies using "fume" in their marketing would stop, since it's essentially a lie, if they're just airbrushing, which seems almost certain.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Fromage dials.

Boom!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

With metal alloys, the compositions lead to variations (trade-offs) in hardness/brittleness, ductility (essentially flex strength, the opposite of hardness), corrosion resistance, and magnetism.

Each alloy therefore tends to be associated with an intended use - surgical grade, marine-grade, aerospace grade, etc.

There are more than three metals in most steels, but the big three to look at with watches are nickel, chromium, and carbon. 

High carbon steel like that found in some tactical knives, and what Damasko uses, is generally lower in the other two. The very low (trace amounts) nickel content makes the metal darker/duller, and harder. The low chromium content makes it more susceptible to corrosion, which is why there's usually some protective coating applied. High carbon steel is magnetic, so it makes for a good magnetic shield (by routing magnetism around, rather than being permeated by it).

Nickel generally adds shininess, as well as ductility and softness, which allows 316L to be given a razor edge quickly and easily. The chromium is what makes stainless steel "stainless", essentially self-healing, and virtually rust-proof, hence, surgical grade. It's non-magnetic, which makes it a weak magnetic shield.

Other metals can be added to get various other alloys with other properties, for various other purposes. The costs are a function of the raw materials, as well as the difficulty in forming the metal.

With affordable watches, I tend to be mindful of the cost-sensitivity of the people who buy them. Take any comment from someone complaining about the price of any watch because of the movement inside it, then add 10%-20% to the price for titanium or bronze, and try to explain it to that guy.

When people ask me if I'll make something titanium or bronze, they never include a price and a set of specs. I always think, "if I made it, I wonder how many would actually buy it, if I priced it how I'd need to, in order to justify it?" 

Would you pay $700+ for a titanium NTH Sub? How many others would?

Yes, I understand other micros make bronze or titanium watches. The ones who sell a lot are under-pricing them. The others don't make very many of them, and make more with good old 316L.


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Sure you have seen this OM Nautilus in some alloy of bronze, 9015 inside, several color options, for $379, less when pre-ordered. 11.2mm thin. Optional mix & match of hand, dial and date wheel colors


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

OM is a great example of a brand to NOT bring into pricing discussions. 

I strongly believe whoever makes those is a rich guy who just feels like releasing inexpensive watches into the world at little to no profit. 

Also they are only available for 45 seconds when released.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Sure you have seen this OM Nautilus in some alloy of bronze, 9015 inside, several color options, for $379, less when pre-ordered. 11.2mm thin. Optional mix & match of hand, dial and date wheel colors


I have.


mplsabdullah said:


> OM is a great example of a brand to NOT bring into pricing discussions.
> 
> I strongly believe whoever makes those is a rich guy who just feels like releasing inexpensive watches into the world at little to no profit.
> 
> Also they are only available for 45 seconds when released.


^^^This.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

docvail said:


> High carbon steel like that found in some tactical knives, and what Damasko uses, is generally lower in the other two. The very low (trace amounts) nickel content makes the metal darker/duller, and harder. The low chromium content makes it more susceptible to corrosion, which is why there's usually some protective coating applied. High carbon steel is magnetic, so it makes for a good magnetic shield (by routing magnetism around, rather than being permeated by it).


Just a note that the steel Damasko uses (or so we believe, since there's nothing "official"; just what's been mentioned in a few patents) is a high nitrogen steel, rather than being considered high carbon. It's got just enough carbon to perhaps squeak into the 'high carbon' category, but it's got about as much chromium content as 316L actually. The problem is high carbon + chromium aren't a good mix in that the carbon tends to mess with the corrosion resistance imparted by the chromium. Hence why this particular steel uses nitrogen instead of (well, in addition to) carbon: the nitrogen gives some similar properties in hardenability as high carbon steels, without as bad a loss of stain resistance from being a true high carbon. So while it's not as corrosion resistant as 316L, it's still fairly high. Makes for some great knives too that hold their edge well, even if it was developed for aerospace bearings to begin with, though knives made out of it is still somewhat uncommon outside of custom made ones.

And the magnetic properties are an issue, since this steel can become magnetized. Damasko uses a soft iron cage to route the magnetism around the movement, in case the case gets magnetized; can't do that with a carbon steel cage from I understand.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Iandk said:


> Just a note that the steel Damasko uses (or so we believe, since there's nothing "official"; just what's been mentioned in a few patents) is a high nitrogen steel, rather than being considered high carbon. It's got just enough carbon to perhaps squeak into the 'high carbon' category, but it's got about as much chromium content as 316L actually. The problem is high carbon + chromium aren't a good mix in that the carbon tends to mess with the corrosion resistance imparted by the chromium. Hence why this particular steel uses nitrogen instead of (well, in addition to) carbon: the nitrogen gives some similar properties in hardenability as high carbon steels, without as bad a loss of stain resistance from being a true high carbon. So while it's not as corrosion resistant as 316L, it's still fairly high. Makes for some great knives too that hold their edge well, even if it was developed for aerospace bearings to begin with, though knives made out of it is still somewhat uncommon outside of custom made ones.
> 
> And the magnetic properties are an issue, since this steel can become magnetized. Damasko uses a soft iron cage to route the magnetism around the movement, in case the case gets magnetized; can't do that with a carbon steel cage from I understand.


Trust me. I've researched this. I know what I'm talking about. I really don't want to argue about it. If I say it online, I'm not guessing. I'm certain. I've looked at this - a lot.

They're almost certainly using 440 steel, most likely 440 A or 440 C, most likely C. It's high carbon steel, with little to no nickel content. It has about the same chromium content, which makes it "stainless", but the higher carbon and lower nickel percentages are what make it harder, and more susceptible to corrosion. It actually has no nitrogen content at all. It has corrosion resistance similar to 304L steel, which is lower than 316L steel. This is why Damasko needs the "Damest" coating.

Damasko adds a farraday cage to the case, not because the case may be magnetized, which isn't a concern, but because it doesn't completely surround the movement, which keeps the case from being an effective magnetic shield by itself. The additional magnetic shielding is to keep the hairspring from being magnetized. If the case completely covered the movement, they wouldn't need the additional shielding.

Again, though, forget I brought it up. I shouldn't have. I should have known bringing it up would lead to some debate about it.

My point was really about why I don't make a titanium or bronze watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just looked at Damasko's website, and found this page - Stainless Steel | Engineering | Watch-Manufacture Damasko

On other parts of their site, when discussing the metal used in their cases to this point, they reveal it's nickel-free, ice-hardened martensitic steel. That, along with some other info I found is what led me to believe - firmly - that they've been using 440 A or 440 C steel, which is, as I said, low in nickel, high in carbon, very hard, magnetic, and less corrosion-resistant than 316L.

Judging by that page, it appears that they've gotten some questions about it, and I wonder if they've had people complain about corrosion, despite their Damest coating, because, according to that page, it looks like they're moving to more corrosion-resistant austenitic steel, which is what 304 and 316 are, but austenitic steels aren't as hard as martensitic.

What's interesting is they're talking about their new steel being "ultra-hard" austenitic, but then, if I'm reading their site correctly, it's got a "surface" hardness of 1600 HV, whereas 316L is usually around 200, which is about as hard as austenitic steels get without cold-hardening.

Here's how I read that - they're likely planning to switch to 316L, but don't want to just come right out and say it. They may harden it through cold-working, or may not, but they're definitely adding some sort of surface treatment to give it a harder surface layer.

That's sort of like Sinn's tegimentation - the underlying steel is softer than the outer layer, which never seemed as good a solution for hardness as compared to Damasko's use of a harder steel throughout.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Duplicate post.


----------



## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

From https://www.watchuseek.com/f8/damasko-report-64554.html



> KD:
> Well, first of all I would like to mention that my major goal always was and still is to construct a watch with superior technical characteristics which should represent a very high standard. The most ideas or let´s say projects have been developed at home, sitting in front of the TV. While my wife is watching television I always have some drafts or paperwork on my knees I am fiddling about with.
> It needed more than 3 ½ years of extensive work (at least the last two years) to realize the DAMINOX process which allows to harden austenitic steel alloy (316L, 904) to between 1000 and 1800 HV, depending on the composition of the stainless steel. So far the "ice-hardening" process of *martensitic steel (we do use 1.41.08)* was only the first step into a new world of hardened steel. Of course I had to face some backstrokes over the time but finally I succeeded.
> All that is based on long years of extensive research which lead to several dozens of patents and I always feel proud when a watch leaves our factory.


and one of their patents: https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1033632B1/en



> For the manufacture of the housing 1 and the outer cover 6 is specifically a steel of the group *X30CrMoN15-1 (1.4108 / AMS 5898 - X30CrMoN15-1)*, wherein this steel carbon, silicon, manganese, phosphorus, sulfur, chromium, molybdenum, nickel, aluminum, nitrogen, titanium and copper having the following proportion, and the proportion of carbon + nitrogen a total of about 0.6 - 0.7:
> X30CrMoN15-1:
> Carbon (C): 0.31%
> Nitrogen (N): 0.40%
> ...


... was from where I was presuming that they were using X30CrMoN15-1 / W-Nr 1.4108 steel.



docvail said:


> I just looked at Damasko's website, and found this page - Stainless Steel | Engineering | Watch-Manufacture Damasko
> 
> On other parts of their site, when discussing the metal used in their cases to this point, they reveal it's nickel-free, ice-hardened martensitic steel. That, along with some other info I found is what led me to believe - firmly - that they've been using 440 A or 440 C steel, which is, as I said, low in nickel, high in carbon, very hard, magnetic, and less corrosion-resistant than 316L.
> 
> ...


Reading that makes me wonder if they're talking about the submarine steel they use in the DSub, which is surface-hardened to 1600 HV.

No idea if it's the same ThyssenKrupp VDM 1.3964 used by Sinn, but they do quote "1.3964/1.4566 PRE value of about 38" on that page.

Sorry for the offtopic, just the metallugy nut in me scratching an itch. ;-)

In any case (pun intended) I'm guessing it's probably not a material that you'd want to work with...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

An excellent and well interpreted summation of the differences in steels, their properties and potential drawbacks there Doc. As you probably know, for every ying, there is a yang and that goes for steel too, this is just natural law. 

Damasko's special patent steel is wonderful material, but it is indeed subject to corrosion, much more so than 316L ( Which will corrode, given the right conditions), of course, despite it's legendary hardness and dent/scratch resistance, it is a dull, flat and lifeless looking material - I know, I have one. So, are Damasko looking to swerve into that shiny, stainless market? looks like it to me, some of their recent releases have been, shall we say, dressy, but they do have a reputation for toughness to sustain and uphold, hence the qualification on their website to, well, "tegimented" steel watches with a shiny attribute, it will probs have their own patent name - jeez, I just love this stuff, but then I am a Quality Engineer working with steels on a daily basis - that can be addictive too.....

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> With affordable watches, I tend to be mindful of the cost-sensitivity of the people who buy them. Take any comment from someone complaining about the price of any watch because of the movement inside it, then add 10%-20% to the price for titanium or bronze, and try to explain it to that guy.
> 
> ...


For my part, I've no option but to pay a 10-20% premium, given it's a necessity rather than just a nice to have. The guy b*tching about a $500+ dollar watch with a Miyota, is he *ever* going to be a customer? ?

I wouldn't hesitate to pay $700 for a Ti NTH sub. I might not be able to buy it immediately, but I sure as hell would once funds are available. The watch at the top of my list right now is a Seiko SARX055, which will cost me about $1050. While I'd rather pay less (who wouldn't), it's still a reasonable price IMO.

Second in line is a Mido Ocean Star Captain Ti. It's the closest diver I can find that matches my specs, but to be honest it's not a watch that *really* excites me. A Ti Sante Fe or Santa Cruz though... ?

But if I put myself in your shoes, a big part of the issue/risk is how long would it take to shift them all (I have no doubt that you would... eventually). Stock on shelf costs money and ties up capital and all that.

So I won't nag/beg/pester on this, but will keep a keen eye on any future updates ?


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

1. Late to the discussion, but maybe use „délavée" instead of „fumée" - no problem with pronounciation despite the accents on the „e"s and it's evenly appropriate plus it has the pretentious („pretentious?!? MOI?!") tone to separate from the ground folk. 

2. talisker: alcohol is no solution. It's a solvent. Just saying.

3. this is a reminder to praise the genius that designed the NTH logo:







this simply needs to be seen more.

4.







because we need more pics.

Edit: why in the world did someone bring in the bunnahabhain whisky in an area, where there is a serious dispute about pronouncing the unpronounceable...

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

I'm actually saving up for a Damasko, because I like the boring, dull and lifeless finish. So I don't want to hear nothing about them moving to a lively shiny material 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

aicolainen said:


> I'm actually saving up for a Damasko, because I like the boring, dull and lifeless finish. So I don't want to hear nothing about them moving to a lively shiny material
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


May be too late and shiny will be the new "boring"..........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Toss a watch in a tumble dryer a few times, will be less shiny 

P.S. Tastewise, Bunnahabhain *is* the marine whisky that Old Pulteney merely claims to be.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Ragl said:


> May be too late and shiny will be the new "boring"..........
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


Guess me needs to get myself a used old boring one, in that low end knife steel.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## IntlMan (Aug 23, 2015)

Any hints about the Tiburón or Barracuda timeline?

I need a blue & gold bezel in my life!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

IntlMan said:


> Any hints about the Tiburón or Barracuda timeline?
> 
> I need a blue & gold bezel in my life!


Email newsletter.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Sorry if this question has been asked and answered earlier in this thread, but are there plans for more Azores and Antilles being produced?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

IntlMan said:


> Any hints about the Tiburón or Barracuda timeline?
> 
> I need a blue & gold bezel in my life!





mattm0691 said:


> Sorry if this question has been asked and answered earlier in this thread, but are there plans for more Azores and Antilles being produced?


Maybe.

Next batch of NTH Subs will be available for pre-sales, at full price, this coming Wednesday, at noon. Delivery in late July/early August. Limited numbers available on everything, but there will be more available from our retail partners at Watch Gauge, and Serious Watches in the EU. I think Watch Gauge will be doing a simultaneous pre-order, but Serious Watches will wait until we've delivered the inventory they've ordered to them, and they can ship it.

Watch Wonderland currently has the Barracuda, the Nacken Modern Black and the Nacken Modern Blue in stock. They also have the Antilles in stock.

We have several new models in various stages of development, including a revised NTH Tropics (Antilles/Azores). Not sure when we'll make them, assuming we will. I'm focused on other stuff right now. I doubt they'll appear before next year.

I don't always know what I'm doing in 3 months, much less 6, 12, or 18. I can't make a lot of anything while I still have other stuff in stock or in production.

I hope people understand I'm managing as best I can. Everything we make is produced based on our assessment of demand, and we've yet to seriously underestimate it. More often than not, the last ~20 pieces of every new model are slow to sell. By the time they sell out, I've been focused on the next model, or the one after that, for months.

When people ask me, a year or more after something has sold out, if I'll make more, my first thought is, "where were you a year ago, when I was tired of looking at them?"

If something sold out quickly, and we had clear and large demand for more, I'd know it, and I'd be working on making more. But my MOQ to produce anything is 500 pieces, total, and I can't keep making 20 pieces of this version, 30 pieces of that version. It's 500 pieces total, and 50 pieces per version, minimum, or I ain't making it.

Best bet - buy it when I have it available, because my goal isn't to have it forever, it's to sell it all as quickly as possible.

If I had a nickel for every person who ever told me they regret not pre-ordering, or regret not getting one when we had them in stock, or that the watches punch above their price, I'd have at least $20.

In the meantime - https://www.watchrecon.com/?brand=nth


----------



## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I stand corrected.
> 
> The next time someone asks if my dial is a fume, I think I'll just go with "airbrushed".
> 
> ...


Would love to see one of the big dogs in the industry fuming dials w a candle then lacquer those dials . At least then they could explain why they charge the ridiculous premiums ...


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Phantom with the Phantom at RAF Cosford Airshow









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Just wanna pop my head in and say that while the conversation re: titanium has no doubt been a bit irritating for Doc, it has been very informative for me.

At any rate, speaking as someone for whom titanium would not be a necessity, I think it's cool enough but I wouldn't ever buy a watch *because* it used titanium.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> Sorry if this question has been asked and answered earlier in this thread, but are there plans for more Azores and Antilles being produced?





docvail said:


> Watch Wonderland currently has the Barracuda, the Nacken Modern Black and the Nacken Modern Blue in stock. They also have the Antilles in stock.


I just realized Watch Gauge also has a few pieces of the Antilles in stock, FWIW.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> mattm0691 said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry if this question has been asked and answered earlier in this thread, but are there plans for more Azores and Antilles being produced?
> ...


It's actually good that I asked, because another user saw my question and offered to sell me his champagne dialled Antilles, so soon I'll be adding that to my ever growing collection of nth watches!


----------



## IntlMan (Aug 23, 2015)

Doc, please excuse if they have already been provided somewhere in this thread, but could you post a real life photo of the Tiburón? I'm very interested in purchasing right away on Wednesday but I'd like to see a photo first. All the images on the website and video preview seem like generated images (maybe I'm wrong?). I don't want to miss out by waiting until they are released, but can't really purchase without seeing a photo of it. You got any of the watch in the wild? Thanks.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

IntlMan said:


> Doc, please excuse if they have already been provided somewhere in this thread, but could you post a real life photo of the Tiburón? I'm very interested in purchasing right away on Wednesday but I'd like to see a photo first. All the images on the website and video preview seem like generated images (maybe I'm wrong?). I don't want to miss out by waiting until they are released, but can't really purchase without seeing a photo of it. You got any of the watch in the wild? Thanks.


I can't, because there are no real-world pics.

All the 3D and 2D illustrations are on the website.

Real-world will always look better.

This is going to be how we'll be doing a lot/most things going forward. We won't be prototyping every new version, just for the sake of doing photos. It's buy from the renders, or wait until the real-world pics start popping up, after we've made delivery, when they may be gone.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Late posting these pics from this weekend, but then again all the regulars to this thread are probably just about sick of my morning beach pics anyway. Haven't posted the last few weekends, but this weekend was just too gorgeous not to.

















Speaking of gorgeous, Doc, you may have just gone and done it this time. This has been on my wrist non-stop for the better part of two months now, and I have no interest in taking it off. Just to prove the point, today I tried to change it up and wear my turtle to work. That dog just didn't hunt. Right back to the DR.

I know that it's not for everyone. I've seen a fair number of these go back up for sale on this forum because the original purchaser just wasn't feeling it. But this watch checks all of my boxes.

That said, Doc, after initially pining for the Bluracuda, now that you're actually about to put them up for sale, all I can think is that I'll buy one, then feel this sense of regretful obligation that I have to take the DR off for a while to wear the new one. I'll regret it later, but I think I'm going to have to pass. You're a victim of your own success.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Hmmm, I'm sure you have your reasons but if I'm being honest I don't like the approach. A full price presale from a render?

You know I love your watches, but not digging the strategy.


docvail said:


> I can't, because there are no real-world pics.
> 
> All the 3D and 2D illustrations are on the website.
> 
> ...


Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> IntlMan said:
> 
> 
> > Doc, please excuse if they have already been provided somewhere in this thread, but could you post a real life photo of the Tiburón? I'm very interested in purchasing right away on Wednesday but I'd like to see a photo first. All the images on the website and video preview seem like generated images (maybe I'm wrong?). I don't want to miss out by waiting until they are released, but can't really purchase without seeing a photo of it. You got any of the watch in the wild? Thanks.
> ...


I'm kind of just at the point where I have interacted with enough nth watches and haven't found a single one to be ugly or aesthetically displeasing, so I trust that if the renders look interesting to me, it'll probably be great in real life..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skunkworks said:


> Hmmm, I'm sure you have your reasons but if I'm being honest I don't like the approach. A full price presale from a render?
> 
> You know I love your watches, but not digging the strategy.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches





mattm0691 said:


> I'm kind of just at the point where I have interacted with enough nth watches and haven't found a single one to be ugly or aesthetically displeasing, so I trust that if the renders look interesting to me, it'll probably be great in real life..


Here's the deal:

1. It wasn't that long ago that ALL micro-brands were doing pre-order based on nothing but renders. Even now, lots of micros still do, quite successfully. I don't just mean the little guys. Chris Wiegand (Lum-Tec) is one of my unofficial mentors. I talked to him about some of the issues I've had in getting from concept to delivery, and he told me, flat out, that a lot of the issues we've had have been due to prototyping, that we should change how we're doing things, and that people will buy off a render. He built his business on illustrations.

2. I started off doing prototyping primarily as a means of proving my factory could deliver a quality product, before *I* committed large sums of money - as in, tens of thousands of dollars - to them. I'm not even working with that factory any more. My new factory is one of the best in the business. I've been working with them since the Phantom. You all know the quality is there.

3. Prototyping adds months to the process. Time is money. Do you want to pay MORE for the watch, to compensate me for the time I lose in prototyping? No? Didn't think so.

4. It's not like it's a completely new design, one which might have some hidden issues. We've made the NTH Subs before. Why would I do sampling again?

5. I've worked with some of the best photographers in the game. Photography is really expensive, and takes a lot of time to coordinate. I spend about $100 per image on my website. And what do people always say? "The pictures don't do it justice." They never do. In fact, Rusty's renders are usually better than real-life photos.

6. I have an easy-to-understand return policy - if you get the watch, and don't like it, SEND IT BACK! What's the risk? The shipping cost? C'mon, small risk, too small to get our pants in a twist worrying about it.

7. I used to discount pre-orders because we were waiting on prototypes, then waiting months for production, and because I was using the pre-orders to finance production, so I needed the money. We've already made all the major components for the Subs going on pre-order Wednesday. They're targeted for delivery in 6-8 weeks, not 6-8 months. I don't need the money. I've already paid for them. I was going to wait until we had them in and ready to ship, but I'm tired of people asking me when we'll start the pre-order, so here you go.

8. They're going to sell out. Maybe before they're ready to ship, maybe soon after. I guarantee it. The people who'll buy them - they're not breaking my balls about seeing real-world pics, or getting a discount. I like that about those guys, way more than I like people demanding I jump through a bunch of hoops and give them a discount, and MAYBE they'll buy.

9. Most of the product images you see online are not realistic. The photos are heavily doctored, or they're not even photos, just ultra-realistic 3D renders. I have photographers who ask me if we can remove the crystal so they can shoot without glare. We manipulate the colors, reflections, and textures. We remove dust. There are photos which are just layered images with multiple focal points. If you really want to know what a watch looks like, you need a wrist shot. My customers take the best pics. Until they get them, you get Rusty's renders, and they're damned good.

I deliver the goods. It's what I do. No one in their right mind can say they regret pre-ordering from me. Every watch I sell punches above its price, and my service is unimpeachable. If not being able to see real-world pics before you buy is going to stop you, so be it. They'll still sell out, so your choice is taking a chance on buying it, and you risk having to send it back, or not buying it, and you risk regretting you didn't buy.

I told you - if I had a nickel for everyone who told me they regret not buying, I'd have $20, at least. If I had a nickel for everyone who regrets buying, I'd have maybe $0.85.

This isn't even a question about whether or not it's happening. It's happening. You're on the bus or you're on the curb, watching the bus drive away.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Duplicate post.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

skunkworks said:


> Hmmm, I'm sure you have your reasons but if I'm being honest I don't like the approach. A full price presale from a render?
> 
> You know I love your watches, but not digging the strategy.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches





mattm0691 said:


> I'm kind of just at the point where I have interacted with enough nth watches and haven't found a single one to be ugly or aesthetically displeasing, so I trust that if the renders look interesting to me, it'll probably be great in real life..


I'm fairly certain Doc could have just used the words "Scorpene with a blue sunray dial and blue bezel" and I'd have


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

IntlMan said:


> Doc, please excuse if they have already been provided somewhere in this thread, but could you post a real life photo of the Tiburón? I'm very interested in purchasing right away on Wednesday but I'd like to see a photo first. All the images on the website and video preview seem like generated images (maybe I'm wrong?). I don't want to miss out by waiting until they are released, but can't really purchase without seeing a photo of it. You got any of the watch in the wild? Thanks.


Google "Nacken Vintage Black" - that's the dial color, dial texture, and lume color of the Tiburon.

Google "Nacken Vintage Blue", or "Nacken Modern Blue" - that's the color of the bezel.

Google "Rolex Bart Simpson" or "Rolex Maxi Dial" - that's the dial pattern.

All real world images.

Boom.

Bob's yer uncle.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Here's the deal:
> 
> <SNIP!>


tl;dr: Prototypes are for Kickstarters, rookies, and porch dogs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bart Simpson...









Tiburon...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> tl;dr: Prototypes are for Kickstarters, rookies, and porch dogs.


Pretty much.

I gotta lengthen my stride and run. Can't be stopping to explain everything I'm doing and why to every person watching me go.

Train's a-leaving. All aboard. No stops between here and Awesometown. Passing right through "Butwhataboutaville" and "Idontagreeaburgh", without even slowing down.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

These renders are friggin' crazy, @rpm1974










This kinda makes a fella wonder about blowing money on a Black Bay...


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

JakeJD said:


> These renders are friggin' crazy, @rpm1974
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm hopping on this barracuda so damn quick when pre orders open, you won't believe it lol


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Either it wasn’t clear or I’m not very smart...are you doing another run of the vintage Nacken blue? It’s caught my eye and I’d like to get one.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Nikita70 said:


> Either it wasn't clear or I'm not very smart...are you doing another run of the vintage Nacken blue? It's caught my eye and I'd like to get one.


http://www.janistrading.com/nacken-vintage-blue-no-date/


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> Either it wasn't clear or I'm not very smart...are you doing another run of the vintage Nacken blue? It's caught my eye and I'd like to get one.


There are some included in the pre-orders on Wednesday.

I can't post links to my site on the forum, but...the site's still there. Look under "Coming Soon".


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Doc, that Nacken Renegade. Stunning. It's like a bargain Clipperton Aquis.


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> Doc, that Nacken Renegade. Stunning. It's like a bargain Clipperton Aquis.


Is that the one with the fumé dial? 😂


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> I gotta lengthen my stride and run. Can't be stopping to explain everything I'm doing and why to every person watching me go.
> 
> Train's a-leaving. All aboard. No stops between here and Awesometown. Passing right through "Butwhataboutaville" and "Idontagreeaburgh", without even slowing down.


Dude, who you kiddin'? You stopped to drop a 9 point bullet list! You know you can't help yourself.

I wasn't talking about prototypes, I understand not prototyping every new colorway. You mentioned before they were already paid for, without presale money, so I was thinking why not get them in and put up pics with delivery right away. I get it, bus or curb. Some peeps enjoy following your business decisions right along with your watches.

No big deal, I just like pictures of pretty watches. I'm having a hard time picking which one I want out of this batch, and real pics are always cool.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ian_61 said:


> Is that the one with the fumé dial?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


>


Just sayin'...


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Davekaye90 said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


I like this new (for nth subs) bezel insert.. I also like that you went for straight white lume instead of trying to ape an aged look with old radium on this model


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skunkworks said:


> Dude, who you kiddin'? You stopped to drop a 9 point bullet list! You know you can't help yourself.
> 
> I wasn't talking about prototypes, I understand not prototyping every new colorway. You mentioned before they were already paid for, without presale money, so I was thinking why not get them in and put up pics with delivery right away. I get it, bus or curb. Some peeps enjoy following your business decisions right along with your watches.
> 
> ...


Guilty as charged, and no worries.

I've come to realize I can't please everyone.

If I do pre-orders, I get guys telling me they hate pre-orders, and people who complain about the wait, and haters saying "risk your own money!".

If I don't do pre-orders, I get guys complaining about having to wait, and paying full price.

If I pay for photography, I still get people complaining that the watches look different than they do in pics, or saying that the pics don't look as good as the renders, or asking me what colors they see, and then I get people saying they're better in real life, and others saying they should have ordered, but didn't because of the pics.

I'm so over it. I'm in a good position, business-wise, in that there's currently more demand for what I'm selling than there is supply, but I've been managing cash flow well enough that I'm not forced to do anything, and can decide what I want to do.

By trying to please everyone, I've actually made things WAY harder than they needed to be, and no one's paying me extra to make things harder on myself.

The DevilRay was my breaking point - that was 15 months from starting on the design to delivery. That's ridiculous. There was just no need to prototype that one. The changes we made for production could have been caught earlier, by me, had I put a better process in place, and taken more time up front.

But instead, we were rushing to get prototypes made so we could get photos, and do pre-orders, and start production. As a result, we overlooked some things, and made mistakes in the process.

We could have had that one last fall, and it would have been right, if not for the process.

The whole point of my last trip to China was to fix what was wrong in the process. We're spending more time and effort on the front end now, so we can be sure about what's being produced, without needing to prototype.

We're developing more retail partnerships. I'm offering all new models to those partners first. So, folks in the EU can stop brow-beating me about having an AD there, and *****ing about the VAT costing them "extra". Folks in Singapore can go into Watch Wonderland and see the watches in person. I'm working on getting a good AD in the UK (verbal agreement in place to work together later in the year), and one in the Middle-East. I go to GTG's so folks can see the watches in person.

I'm trying to address all the little complaints people can't stop lodging with me.

Anything the retailers don't take, I'll sell directly, either after we've gotten them in stock, or before. But I won't be pressured to stop everything until we can get them photographed, at great expense and drain on my time. What's the point, if I've already paid for fairly realistic 3D illustrations, I've only got a few pieces left for sale, and we'll be seeing people's wrist-shots soon enough?

I only made 30 of the Nacken Renegade in this batch. I've sold 2/3 of them already, and I may sell the rest before the end of the week. If you don't get one, we'll be making more for October-ish delivery, and you'll see wrist-shots from those who got one of the first batch.

These pieces currently in assembly - they're the last 170 pieces of the first 1000 NTH Subs. I've only got 50 left. The retailers cleaned me out of the other 120. They didn't break my balls about seeing real world pics. Why would I spend thousands of dollars getting photos taken - which will force me to discount those pieces we photographed, as "photography samples", costing me even more money - just so I can sell 50 pieces that are going to sell anyway?

I don't know what to tell everyone. Those willing to take a little risk with me get the rewards of my efforts, and seem happy they took the leap of faith, more often than not.

Those who aren't willing to take the risk get the leftovers. Enjoy the meatloaf sandwich.

I'm running a business, not running for class president. It ain't show-FRIENDS, it's show-BUSINESS.

You send me money, I send you watch. Brow-beating me about anything isn't a form of currency, or one of the terms included in this transaction.


----------



## Brekel (Sep 18, 2014)

Hi Doc,

In the renders it looks like the Barracuda and Tiburón use a darker blue for the bezel then the Näcken Blue and Näcken Vintage...is that correct?


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Brekel said:


> Hi Doc,
> 
> In the renders it looks like the Barracuda and Tiburón use a darker blue for the bezel then the Näcken Blue and Näcken Vintage...is that correct?
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk


Did you check your monitor's calibration?

They're all the same blue.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

JakeJD said:


> These renders are friggin' crazy, @rpm1974
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wait, isn't this a tudor? 
?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Doc, that Nacken Renegade. Stunning. It's like a bargain Clipperton Aquis.


I'm legally changing my name to Clipperton Aquis.

The third.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Shockwave said:


> Wait, isn't this a tudor?
> ?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope, it's a Barra-Chuda.......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Shockwave said:


> Wait, isn't this a tudor?
> &#55358;&#56644;
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not familiar with the Tudor Wink Poop. Got links?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

"Tudor Wink Poop" is a hell of a kickass homage name.

So which NTH model is it that's getting the "TWP (Tudor Wink Poop") nickname?


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

Lol well that went south fast. 

I put the wink, poop and spoon emoji to show I was stirring the pot


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Shockwave said:


> Lol well that went south fast.
> 
> I put the wink, poop and spoon emoji to show I was stirring the pot
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Tudor WinkPoopSpoon

Say it fast with a Scottish accent and it almost sounds like a thing.


----------



## taileon (Aug 7, 2017)

Just got my Watch Wonderland EE DevilFox 

Am also a very happy owner of a Näcken Modern Blue!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm legally changing my name to Clipperton Aquis.
> 
> The third.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


You'll need one of these, then. Anyone named Clipperton is a yacht man.


----------



## Shockwave (Nov 19, 2013)

taileon said:


> View attachment 13216991
> 
> 
> Just got my Watch Wonderland EE DevilFox
> ...


YES!!!!! I was hoping someone would post the new date version in blue! Daaaaammmnnn that looks good!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ever wondered what a wall of text sounds like?






Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Oh man that Devil Fox is a terribly sexy, tasty beast. Just beautiful!


----------



## I_am_Ned (Dec 21, 2017)

I'm down to three options for pre-order, and due to my travel schedule it may or may not limit my options today.

1) Keep my newish but deeply loved Nacken Vintage Blue No Date that I wear 16 hours a day and be happy, which I am, and don't order anything.
2) Order the Barracuda Blue with date at 6 (if a date, I want it at six). I love the gold accents, but torn because it's blue, like my current blue Nacken. If the Barracuda Brown/Bronze was an option with date at six I wouldn't be typing this, I'd be re-scheduling my travel schedule today.
3) Nacken Modern Black with date at 6. Something about this modern black really pulls me in.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> Ever wondered what a wall of text sounds like?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well... I hate to argue phonetics again, but I'll need to correct you on the Zwaardvis... Because right now it sounds like you're saying "sword dirty"...

So the sword part is right. The vis part should sound like "fiss", basically just like fish, but without the "j" sound at the end. "feese" sounds like the dutch word "vies", which means dirty...

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This is why I hesitate to use sapphire or ceramic for bezel inserts...










Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Wimads said:


> Well... I hate to argue phonetics again, but I'll need to correct you on the Zwaardvis... Because right now it sounds like you're saying "sword dirty"...
> 
> So the sword part is right. The vis part should sound like "fiss", basically just like fish, but without the "j" sound at the end. "feese" sounds like the dutch word "vies", which means dirty...
> 
> Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


Hmm. So saying "Zwaard-fist" would be accurate?


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm. So saying "Zwaard-fist" would be accurate?


Without the T, yes 

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

PSA: Watch Gauge has the Subs 3.0 models on Pre-order today:

https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Watchgauge also made a interview video with someone named "Chris" about these new subs.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Hopped on the pre-order as soon as the clock ticked over to noon! There's now a renegade and blue barracuda somewhere out there with my name on them..

Doc, just a heads up- IDK if it's an issue with your site, or if you already just sent all the no date barracudas out to distributors, but it says that there are none of them in stock, and it did so like right at the crack of noon. It's no biggie because they're available from watchgauge (where I ended up picking mine up from), but in case it's not supposed to be that way, just wanted put that out there.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> Hopped on the pre-order as soon as the clock ticked over to noon! There's now a renegade and blue barracuda somewhere out there with my name on them..
> 
> Doc, just a heads up- IDK if it's an issue with your site, or if you already just sent all the no date barracudas out to distributors, but it says that there are none of them in stock, and it did so like right at the crack of noon. It's no biggie because they're available from watchgauge (where I ended up picking mine up from), but in case it's not supposed to be that way, just wanted put that out there.


Retailers cleaned me out of them. Talk to Watch Gauge, or Serious Watches, who I think is planning to do pre-orders, witnessing this madness unfold.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Retailers cleaned me out of them. Talk to Watch Gauge, or Serious Watches, who I think is planning to do pre-orders, witnessing this madness unfold.


OK cool, I figured that's what happened, and I did end up buying the one I was looking for from WG. Just wanted to make sure there were no SNAFUs for the preorder.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Again, I calls 'em like I sees 'em, or in this case, hears 'em, and it sounds like zvahrd-feese to me...


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> Again, I calls 'em like I sees 'em, or in this case, hears 'em, and it sounds like zvahrd-feese to me...
> 
> View attachment 13218369


Sorry doc, google translate doesn't do dutch better than a native 

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Dammit Doc, I don’t need 10 copies of the same watch but you’re making it hard to resist. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hawkeye86 said:


> Dammit Doc, I don't need 10 copies of the same watch but you're making it hard to resist.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just wait till I start giving them names in English.

"Chris, why don't you ever use German, Dutch, or French names for any of your watches anymore?"

"Because of Germans, the Dutch, and the French."


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

I'm waiting for Dothraki and Na'vi and names for watches.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Just wait till I start giving them names in English.
> 
> "Chris, why don't you ever use German, Dutch, or French names for any of your watches anymore?"
> 
> "Because of Germans, the Dutch, and the French."


I suggest Russian and more Greek names. Japanese would upset the Seiko boys.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Does the Blue Barracuda Date have the Date window at 6H?


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

yankeexpress said:


> Does the Blue Barracuda Date have the Date window at 6H?


It do!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Just wait till I start giving them names in English.
> 
> "Chris, why don't you ever use German, Dutch, or French names for any of your watches anymore?"
> 
> "Because of Germans, the Dutch, and the French."


Looking forward to the "NTH Alabama" or "NTH Benjamin Franklin"* subs 

*- gets a triple bonus because it's a name, it's a sub name, *and* it's a double-name brand a'la daniel wellington.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

NTH Groton


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



yankeexpress said:


> NTH Groton


That's good. Groton is a great destination for a sub...it's so much like the complete opposite of a Key West, Nassau, or Kingston tropical resort. King's Bay, Bangor? Bangor might work. At least it will be good for a few jokes?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Sonic_driftwood said:


> That's good. Groton is a great destination for a sub...it's so much like the complete opposite of a Key West, Nassau, or Kingston tropical resort. King's Bay, Bangor? Bangor might work. At least it will be good for a few jokes?


Did Sunny Point ever handle Boomers?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> This is why I hesitate to use sapphire or ceramic for bezel inserts...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everything is a trade off, right? How many folks have Bond SMPs with their very easily scratched aluminum bezel inserts? Omega doesn't sell just the insert, so your choice is either 1. live with it, or 2. pay $400+ for a completely new bezel. The ceramic SMPs will never have that problem.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Everything is a trade off, right? How many folks have Bond SMPs with their very easily scratched aluminum bezel inserts? Omega doesn't sell just the insert, so your choice is either 1. live with it, or 2. pay $400+ for a completely new bezel. The ceramic SMPs will never have that problem.


Huh?

All materials involve trade-offs, for sure, but it's not like those are the only choices.

Aluminum is a soft metal. The inserts are typically anodized. Yes, it's easier to scratch than ceramic or sapphire.

Ceramic and sapphire are nearly impossible to scratch, but can be chipped and shattered - yes, even ceramic.

My point wasn't "sapphire's bad". My point was - people b1tch at me about wanting sapphire or ceramic bezel inserts, and this is why I hesitate to use those materials - because they can be shattered or chipped.

I prefer to use the steel bezel inserts, particularly with top-grade PVD/DLC coatings, because although they may be scratched more easily, they can't be shattered or chipped. A scratch, most folks can live with, but that chipped sapphire bezel insert? That's going to require the entire bezel assembly to be replaced, not just the insert.

I think about what happens in the real world. In the real world, people wearing watches sometimes knock them into door jambs or metal-tipped railings as they're walking by. I think about the trade-offs in that light, and consider what people would prefer - having a watch with a lightly-scratched steel bezel or a watch with a chipped ceramic/sapphire bezel.

Funny thing - a lot of brand owners seem to be catching on, and using more steel for their bezel inserts. Some of those guys own the very brands which were being held up as examples of what I should be doing, instead of "cheaping out" with steel.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

August yet?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Huh?
> 
> All materials involve trade-offs, for sure, but it's not like those are the only choices.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. For me, it's more about a specific look that I'm after, and what material provides that look. Glass bezels look like glass bezels, there's no way to replicate that look with steel, or aluminum, or ceramic. Similarly, the kind of glossy sheen you get with ceramic I haven't seen matched with other bezel types. I don't worry too much about the vulnerability of each specific material. If that was a top priority, I'd sell all of my watches and get a fully tegimented Sinn.

Top of my list for my next watch is the second gen Monta OK in matte black\gilt, which I think will look spectacular on shell cordovan black leather as a dress diver. The ceramic bezel works better for that kind of role than say, the aluminum on the otherwise very similar Tudor BBB. I'm sure there's a small risk of chipping it if I were to really knock the watch into something, so my plan is to not do that


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Fair enough. For me, it's more about a specific look that I'm after, and what material provides that look. Glass bezels look like glass bezels, there's no way to replicate that look with steel, or aluminum, or ceramic. Similarly, the kind of glossy sheen you get with ceramic I haven't seen matched with other bezel types. I don't worry too much about the vulnerability of each specific material. If that was a top priority, I'd sell all of my watches and get a fully tegimented Sinn.
> 
> Top of my list for my next watch is the second gen Monta OK in matte black\gilt, which I think will look spectacular on shell cordovan black leather as a dress diver. The ceramic bezel works better for that kind of role than say, the aluminum on the otherwise very similar Tudor BBB. I'm sure there's a small risk of chipping it if I were to really knock the watch into something, so my plan is to not do that


I have seen some aluminum bezel inserts with a nice sheen to them, I would easily confuse it with satin finished ceramic bezel, if the specs didn't state otherwise (and untill you'd scratch it) So it is possible. I wonder what a polished steel insert would look like once DLC coated, next to ceramic.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

It all depends on how the surface has been treated. The seiko sbdc051/053 for instance, have alum. bezel inserts that look more glassy/ceramicky due to the lacquer-like coating.

Likewise, a rough brush or anodizing or dlc coating - all could change the appearance of the insert.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> It all depends on how the surface has been treated. The seiko sbdc051/053 for instance, have alum. bezel inserts that look more glassy/ceramicky due to the lacquer-like coating.
> 
> Likewise, a rough brush or anodizing or dlc coating - all could change the appearance of the insert.
> 
> View attachment 13220369


Exactly what I meant! Actually thought those Seikos had ceramic inserts, never was interested so didn't look up the specs.
The look of a sapphire bezel won't be replicated, but a glossy ceramic look is certainly possible 

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

I recommend the next batch be named in Klingon. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> It all depends on how the surface has been treated. The seiko sbdc051/053 for instance, have alum. bezel inserts that look more glassy/ceramicky due to the lacquer-like coating.
> 
> Likewise, a rough brush or anodizing or dlc coating - all could change the appearance of the insert.


Actually, what gives the Seiko SPB053 away as not being ceramic is that it's a relatively complex blue color that changes with the light. Ceramic doesn't do that, the available colors are far more limited than other bezel types, and they tend to be very flat and uniform. The black bezel on the SPB051 is admittedly much harder to tell apart from ceramic, at least at a glance. You will notice though that the markers are painted and not engraved. Ceramic markers tend to be engraved, unless you're Steinhart that is.

Glass is glass though, you'll know it when you see it from a mile away.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> It all depends on how the surface has been treated. The seiko sbdc051/053 for instance, have alum. bezel inserts that look more glassy/ceramicky due to the lacquer-like coating.
> 
> Likewise, a rough brush or anodizing or dlc coating - all could change the appearance of the insert.
> 
> View attachment 13220369


I was gonna mention this model too. I have the sbdc051 and the laquered bezel definitely has a very unique sheen


----------



## footie (Nov 12, 2013)

delete


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

footie said:


> I'm sure this is covered somewhere, but this thread is very long and I can't find it. Tell me more about filing the clasp corners, please.
> 
> ...
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I used the fine side of a nail file. Make one or two passes then check. Go slow like this and you take away the sharp corners and remove almost no material. Unless you looked at it with high magnification you could never tell.

I had to do the same thing with a Tissot clasp. It is just a byproduct of the cutting process sometimes and very easy to remedy.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I can get either a matte, brushed, or glossy finish with either ceramic or steel. The material isn't the difference-maker. 

The more matte the finish is, the less it will reflect light, and the less the color will change based on lighting conditions. 

The colors are limited for both ceramic and steel PVD/DLC, but I can get two different shades of blue with either.

I can in fact give you the same appearance using different materials. Both sapphire and enamel will give you a translucent appearance, but one is super-hard, whereas the other is pretty soft.

If you're after a look, fine, then you're after a look, but understand that a look isn't the same thing as a material. It's just a look. 

I don't like shiny bezels, which is why we give the steel bezels in the Subs a brushed finish.

Harder materials which are harder to scratch are more brittle, and hence easier to chip or shatter. That's not my opinion, it's science. 

I don't like the risk that a more brittle material might chip or shatter, and require an expensive repair - expensive for my customer - which is why I choose steel.

I understand my customers don't like scratches, so we make sure we use the thickest application of PVD/DLC, and I stock replacement bezel inserts, for the rare occasion someone damages one of our bezels. And it is a rare occasion - I've sold about 1,500 watches with steel bezels, and can count the number I've replaced on one hand.

If you see me make a comment about a material, understand I'm not criticizing the material, nor people who like it. It's not personal. People complain to me about not using ceramic or sapphire - I KNOW THAT'S BECAUSE *THEY* LIKE IT - but often those people don't want to hear why I don't use those materials, and when I try to explain, they refuse to accept the truth in what I've said. 

Sometimes they can't let go of the belief that what they like is "better", just like some folks can't stop wanting "muh Switz".

As I've said, there are trade-offs with materials choices. With ceramic and sapphire, what you gain in scratch resistance you lose in shatter-ability. One guy being able to avoid damaging his watch doesn't outweigh all the others who aren't consciously avoiding all hazards all the time.

My goal is to do what I think is right for my customers and my business. I think it's right for me to consider my customers' long-term ownership experience as much as I do my short-term ability to sell a watch. I don't want to sell something I think may have issues down the road.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

For what its worth. Generally I prefer ceramic bezels, but only because 9 out of 10 aluminum bezels are finished in a way I don't like - the way seiko skx/turtle bezels are for example. It actually seems like no finish at all, just what the paint happens to look like once its applied. Ceramic bezels tend to be a lot nicer finished, be it matte, satin or polished. Don't ask me why, it just seems to be that way to me.
Having said that, I love the brushing on the NTH bezels. I don't recall having seen any other brand brushing their bezel inserts, except when theyre bare metal.

To me it is all about the finishing. Ceramic tends to be finished properly for some reason. Sapphire is obviously always properly polished. For aluminum and steel it really depends on the manufacturer and model. NTH getting kudos there, as well as the seiko sbdc.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

footie said:


> delete


I mean literally just take a very fine metal file, and round down anything that pokes you. Run your fingers over the clasp and anything that feels sharp, round it off. I did it on mine and it took just a few minutes. I recommend a traditional, flat bladed file. I got the edges on the 4 corners of the clasp, and the 4 other corners that are revealed when you deploy the ratcheting mechanism. It's pretty easy, just takes a relatively stable hand and a tiny bit of patience


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> For what its worth. Generally I prefer ceramic bezels, but only because 9 out of 10 aluminum bezels are finished in a way I don't like - the way seiko skx/turtle bezels are for example. It actually seems like no finish at all, just what the paint happens to look like once its applied. Ceramic bezels tend to be a lot nicer finished, be it matte, satin or polished. Don't ask me why, it just seems to be that way to me.
> Having said that, I love the brushing on the NTH bezels. I don't recall having seen any other brand brushing their bezel inserts, except when theyre bare metal.
> 
> To me it is all about the finishing. Ceramic tends to be finished properly for some reason. Sapphire is obviously always properly polished. For aluminum and steel it really depends on the manufacturer and model. NTH getting kudos there, as well as the seiko sbdc.
> ...


I've noticed this too. The aluminum bezel on my Tudor BB for example, has a wonderful, silky feel and look about it that is totally unlike a seiko bezel or the like. It can be very nice if done properly.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> For what its worth. Generally I prefer ceramic bezels, but only because 9 out of 10 aluminum bezels are finished in a way I don't like - the way seiko skx/turtle bezels are for example. It actually seems like no finish at all, just what the paint happens to look like once its applied. Ceramic bezels tend to be a lot nicer finished, be it matte, satin or polished. Don't ask me why, it just seems to be that way to me.
> Having said that, I love the brushing on the NTH bezels. I don't recall having seen any other brand brushing their bezel inserts, except when theyre bare metal.
> 
> To me it is all about the finishing. Ceramic tends to be finished properly for some reason. Sapphire is obviously always properly polished. For aluminum and steel it really depends on the manufacturer and model. NTH getting kudos there, as well as the seiko sbdc.
> ...


Just to clarify...

I see people online saying the Subs' bezels are aluminum. They're not. They're steel, and there's a difference (advantage to steel in terms of hardness).

Much of what people complain about, or their preferences, has more to do with specs and process than materials.

Many aluminum bezels are thin, and their markings and colors are just surface coating. They take damage, but that's because of how thin the coatings are, and the softness of the underlying material.

They're not all bad. Sujain's textured bezel on the Sorrento is aluminum, and it's freaking awesome. You would never guess. I didn't believe him when he told me. It's amazing. Likewise, I know that some other micros are getting better results by doing more than just slapping a printed aluminum insert on something. I think Magrette did a lumed aluminum bezel on a recent model, and it looked fantastic.

My point is - I read a lot of online discussion, and having learned what I have by going through so many rounds of production, I can see how many widespread misconceptions there are, which lead people to mistaken beliefs and unfortunate biases.

I don't hate any material. I make choices based on weighing pros and cons in light of the intended application, and likely risks, as well as what we can do to mitigate those risks. I try to think logically. If the case is made of stainless steel, why is it a crime for the bezel to use the same material? That makes no sense.

There are also things people want done which simply cannot be done. If you want a domed bezel with lumed markings, your only choice is sapphire, because the lume is under the surface. If you made a domed bezel with steel or ceramic, the markings would be stamped (into steel) or laser-engraved (into ceramic) on the surface, creating a flat surface where the lume is applied to dry - flat. It doesn't work well if you want a domed surface.

Ceramic is often shiny because of the finish. That seems to be the default - shiny. It can also be brushed or matte, and I've seen samples of both. Brushed would look exactly as our steel bezels do. Matte looked oddly "flat" to me, sort of like a chalk board, too drab.

We could do a glossy finish on steel (or a blasted/matte finish), but I think brushed is a better choice for watch geeks, who are more likely to obsess over tiny, hairline scratches, or rough spots in blasted/matte finishes. So we do brushed, as it's less likely to show signs of wear.

I've looked at other materials. My factory has a process for making gorgeous enamel bezels which look like vintage bakelite bezels. They look awesome, but I'm concerned about their softness. Muhle Glashutte made a model with a bezel strip made from some sort of super-hybrid of vulcanized rubber and some other material I forget. Horoticus has one. It's kind of a cool material, but I couldn't find any suppliers. I've looked into some other alternative materials myself, ones I found on my own, but there are challenges with supply.

Tungsten is heavy (and brittle) as hell. Name a material, there's a downside. Perfection is in the balance. It's not an absolute, where you get a material with no drawbacks.

You guys (WIS) are hard to please. You get obsessed with things, then get bored with them, and often want brands to deliver something that's worse because it sounds better, or to do the impossible.

When the 9015 was new, it was exciting. Now everyone thinks it's boring. I talk to peers about other movements, and hear horror stories about them. But people think muh Switz is more sexier, and don't realize what they're asking for.

You don't care about defect rates or damaged parts until you're the one with the defect or in need of a replacement. But I have to deal with every customer who has an issue. Every time I see a thread started by someone complaining that a sapphire bezel replacement from some other brand is gong to cost $150, I think, "Phew, I dodged a bullet there!"

Ceramic and sapphire, Swiss Movements, fancy clasps - these all add to the cost, but that's not the same thing as improving the product. My focus is on quality and customers' long term experience, regardless of cost.

Folks can argue if they must. I'm not going anywhere.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You don't care about defect rates or damaged parts until you're the one with the defect or in need of a replacement. But I have to deal with every customer who has an issue. Every time I see a thread started by someone complaining that a sapphire bezel replacement from some other brand is gong to cost $150, I think, "Phew, I dodged a bullet there!"
> 
> Ceramic and sapphire, Swiss Movements, fancy clasps - these all add to the cost, but that's not the same thing as improving the product. My focus is on quality and customers' long term experience, regardless of cost.
> 
> ...


Isn't stainless steel the logical choice for a dive watch?

Aluminium - can and does start to rust if in contact with salt water due to galvanic corrosion. I have seen photos of old Seamaster showing this on the underside of the bezel.

Ceramic, Sapphire - very little shock resistance

On a personal note, I prefer scratches on the bezel because the case scratches also and it would look only natural.

Other than that, if the microbrand watch gets old and no one can offer replacement parts I would rather play save and have a steel insert.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

dp


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Seikogi said:


> Isn't stainless steel the logical choice for a dive watch?
> 
> Ceramic, Sapphire - very little shock resistance


Strictly speaking, the logical choice for a dive watch would be whatever allows the most legible indices/lume underwater.

Shock resistance comes only into play when you're bumping into rocks on the seafloor, and - strictly speaking - that's a lack of elegance and poise on the diver's part, as "Rock Bumping" is not really part of the diving process per se.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Strictly speaking, the logical choice for a dive watch would be whatever allows the most legible indices/lume underwater.
> 
> Shock resistance comes only into play when you're bumping into rocks on the seafloor, and - strictly speaking - that's a lack of elegance and poise on the diver's part, as "Rock Bumping" is not really part of the diving process per se.


I am not a professional diver but the ship per se is a dangerious place under certain circumstances. There is a lot of steel to bump into


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Seikogi said:


> Isn't stainless steel the logical choice for a dive watch?
> 
> Aluminium - can and does start to rust if in contact with salt water due to galvanic corrosion. I have seen photos of old Seamaster showing this on the underside of the bezel.
> 
> ...


The underlying assumption in the question is that a dive watch would be used for diving, but we all know most aren't.

So what we're talking about here is more about people's subjective preferences versus real-world experience versus imaginary use.

People may subjectively prefer ceramic. That doesn't make it "better", especially if the preference is due to how it looks, or the WIS fascination with "exotic" materials over materials which are actually better-suited to the application.

In real world use, I think steel will hold up better over time, and the downsides are more than made up for by the upsides:

Scenario A - you scratch your steel bezel, and can't get a replacement. You own a watch with a scratch in the bezel.

Scenario B - you shatter a ceramic or sapphire bezel, and can't get a replacement. You own a watch with a shattered bezel.

What are the odds of shattering a ceramic or sapphire bezel? I dunno. Low, probably, but it can happen. I wasn't Googling "show me pics of dudes with chipped sapphire bezels". That guy's Helson popped up in my Facebook feed. But do a Google image search for broken ceramic watches. You'll find plenty of examples.

























Ruh-roh!!!

But even if the odds are low - it only takes one guy to start a "Microbrand _____ offers crappy service" thread for the story to become legendary. That's what I think about, the guy who blames me because he can't fit through a doorway without cracking his watch into the one piece of metal in 16 recta-linear feet of wood.

What are the odds of of damaging one of our steel inserts?

Well, I recently had someone contact me about replacing one. I forget what the cause of damage was. I vaguely recall something about the watch being dropped from a moving car, or something like that.

I always ask for pics, partly because I want to make sure I'm not participating in anyone's half-a$$ed mod project, but also because I like to know how my stuff holds up to abuse. His pics didn't show much, but I guess I wasn't feeling too argumentative that day, because I agreed to the replacement.

Some of you may recall my personal Scorpene had a screw back out, and fell off my wrist - twice. One of those times involved it going skidding across a bunch of paver stones - and emerging without so much as a mark on it.

Anyhoo, the guy in this case wanted us to do the replacement for him, and again, I agreed, but asked my watchmaker to give me the insert that came out of his watch.

This is it:









I don't know about all of you, but I could live with that, if I had to, if the alternative is this:









Here's another story:

























Maybe I'm just some uncultured, uncouth slob, who doesn't care enough about his appearance, but I know you guys care, so I do my part to keep you all - and your watches - looking good.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Please...argue with me. Tell me why I should be using ceramic or sapphire instead of steel. 

I want to marry stainless steel and have its babies. Awesome little half-irish, half-italian, half-steel babies.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Strictly speaking, the logical choice for a dive watch would be whatever allows the most legible indices/lume underwater.
> 
> Shock resistance comes only into play when you're bumping into rocks on the seafloor, and - strictly speaking - that's a lack of elegance and poise on the diver's part, as "Rock Bumping" is not really part of the diving process per se.


Based on the lack of visibility at depths either due to the turbidity of the silt in the water or that sunlight diminishes with depth is why I'm a huge fan of T100 H3 Tritium flat tubes as they have a constant glow and won't fade over time. Well, maybe a little after 25-50 years.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> Based on the lack of visibility at depths either due to the turbidity of the silt in the water or that sunlight diminishes with depth is why I'm a huge fan of T100 H3 Tritium flat tubes as they have a constant glow and won't fade over time. Well, maybe a little after 25-50 years.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


The half-life of tritium is 12.3 years, which means its brightness is reduced by half in that time. A further 12.3 years will reduce by half again, and the more of those increments, the more it will lose its luminescence. After 24.6 years, it will be 1/4 as bright as when it was new. After 49.2 years, it will be 1/8 as bright. Good thing my half-life is longer than that.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I should add that because tritium lume is so much brighter than chemical lume, after 50 years, tritium may well still be brighter than Luminova.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> Based on the lack of visibility at depths either due to the *turbidity* of the silt in the water or that sunlight diminishes with depth is why I'm a huge fan of T100 H3 Tritium flat tubes as they have a constant glow and won't fade over time. Well, maybe a little after 25-50 years.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I swear on my life I thought you made up a word, "turd-ability".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> The half-life of tritium is 12.3 years, which means its brightness is reduced by half in that time. A further 12.3 years will reduce by half again, and the more of those increments, the more it will lose its luminescence. After 24.6 years, it will be 1/4 as bright as when it was new. After 49.2 years, it will be 1/8 as bright. Good thing my half-life is longer than that.





MikeyT said:


> I should add that because tritium lume is so much brighter than chemical lume, after 50 years, tritium may well still be brighter than Luminova.


I'm no scientist, but I'm not positive those are both correct.

The half-life of tritium - does that equate to losing half its brightness? I honestly don't know. Logically, that would make sense, but I think what it literally means is that the material loses half its radio-activeness in that time, which may not precisely correlate to brightness, especially as tritium tubes are made of more than just tritium, I think.

Pus, I don't think tritium really *IS* so much brighter than other forms of lume. I think its benefit is that it doesn't need to be charged, but I don't think it's actually brighter. It often looks less bright than Superluminova, especially depending on the color and quantity of the SL.

Either way, right or wrong, we are SOOOOOooooooo deep into the weeds now that I don't even remember how we got here.

The whole discussion is like "Inception" - do I remember how I got here, walking in, and sitting down? Nope. Somehow I just found myself in the middle of this bizarre, non sequitur-riddled discussion...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I swear on my life I thought you made up a word, "turd-ability".


I read a thesaurus once. It was a long time at sea, and I had a lot of time to kill. But I digress.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The underlying assumption in the question is that a dive watch would be used for diving, but we all know most aren't.
> 
> So what we're talking about here is more about people's subjective preferences versus real-world experience versus imaginary use.
> 
> ...


Man, I'll take that guys damaged bezel! It's in nicer shape than the bezel I decided to live with in my oberon. Seriously, I'll buy that ...., it would be perfect for me.

For the record I have no idea how this happened, was on the watch when I acquired it. But judging by the wabi on the bracelet dude must have worked construction while wearing this thing. Still looks great and runs beautifully!









Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I can get either a matte, brushed, or glossy finish with either ceramic or steel. The material isn't the difference-maker.


One thing that I've always thought is kind of weird is that nearly every brand that offers a PVD/DLC option for their watch case bead blasts the case first, which gives the black a very dull, flat color, sort of like cerakote but without the sprayed on appearance that has. I get that sort of look for a tool watch, but on the very rare occasion where I've seen a glossy DLC case, it looks amazing. Some crazy person spent 4X as much as the SKX costs getting their SKX DLC coated *without bead blasting it* and the result was this gorgeous almost liquid black color (since the SKX is mostly polished) that I've very rarely seen in a factory DLC option.

I'm with you on matte ceramic, there's a version of the Aquis that has that and I've always preferred the glossy bezels. My blue Aevig Huldra has a really cool metallic blue bezel that really doesn't show at all in pictures, but looks amazing in person with direct light on it. Fortunately I've managed to not scratch it yet, but it does make me a bit hesitant to wear that watch all the time because I want to keep it looking good. If the bezel were ceramic I wouldn't have to worry, but it also wouldn't look as good. My bead blasted SKX on the other hand with its fixed steel bezel I just throw on without a care. It's been knocked around quite a bit, and shows absolutely no signs of it.

Out of curiosity, how much extra effort/expense would it be for you guys to offer different bezel options, say glossy or brushed, similar to the date/no date options? I certainly didn't mind the brushed look on my Nacken when I had it, but I probably would've preferred glossy.

As for the 9015, really the only thing I don't like about it is the uni-directional winding which makes it free-spin. I'm sure some folks are miffed by the -10/+30 minimum specs, but I'm sure in the real world most of them are much more accurate than that. I'll also happily take the 9015's free-spinning rotor over the 6R15's 21.6K BPH beat rate. In undecorated form it's not the prettiest thing to look at, but it's no worse than anything Seiko makes short of GS movements, and plenty of micros have made very attractive looking versions of it. It'll never look as pretty as something like an Omega Co-axial, but of course you're not paying Omega money for it, or Omega service costs.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

MikeyT said:


> I should add that because tritium lume is so much brighter than chemical lume, after 50 years, tritium may well still be brighter than Luminova.


After 50 years Tritium is brighter than 50 year old SL paint? Or new SL? I assume you've seen all of the various Rolexes for sale with "T" markers on their dials. Their Tritium lume is D.E.A.D. dead, and they aren't 50 years old yet. I don't think 50 year old watches with modern style Tritium gas light tubes exist, so it's impossible to say how they'll look. Something like a current Ball though vs. a watch with C3 X1 SL at full charge, the Ball will be nowhere near as bright. C3 X1 at full tilt is like blast furnace bright. After a couple of hours, the Ball will definitely look brighter, but C3 X1 is definitely readable for at least 8 hours assuming it doesn't have another light source to compete with. It will likely be unreadable in a darkened auditorium for example, but perfectly readable during the night at home.

The other problem is Tritium severely limits you in terms of what you can do with shapes. You can't completely fill broad sword hands with lume like you can with SL, you're stuck just plonking tubes on top. Ball has some hour marker designs that aren't the usual tube shape, but they can't do anything else with their handsets. They also have no ability to make luminous Arabic numerals like you would want on a pilot or field watch without making them look like old school segmented LCD display numbers. Not pretty.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> One thing that I've always thought is kind of weird is that nearly every brand that offers a PVD/DLC option for their watch case bead blasts the case first, which gives the black a very dull, flat color, sort of like cerakote but without the sprayed on appearance that has.


I think my own OCD is acting up.

I'm almost absolutely certain they don't blast the case before the coating is applied. The finish is after the coating is applied, FWIW.

Most companies do the blasted finish because it's dull, and less reflective, which I think is the point if you're coating something black. It's "tactical", or whatever.

When we made the Phantom with a DLC case, we did it with - SURPRISE! - a brushed finish, because blasted finishes look great until you touch one hard enough to scuff it, then it looks like $hlt.



Davekaye90 said:


> I get that sort of look for a tool watch, but on the very rare occasion where I've seen a glossy DLC case, it looks amazing. Some crazy person spent 4X as much as the SKX costs getting their SKX DLC coated *without bead blasting it* and the result was this gorgeous almost liquid black color (since the SKX is mostly polished) that I've very rarely seen in a factory DLC option.
> 
> I'm with you on matte ceramic, there's a version of the Aquis that has that and I've always preferred the glossy bezels. My blue Aevig Huldra has a really cool metallic blue bezel that really doesn't show at all in pictures, but looks amazing in person with direct light on it. Fortunately I've managed to not scratch it yet, but it does make me a bit hesitant to wear that watch all the time because I want to keep it looking good. If the bezel were ceramic I wouldn't have to worry, but it also wouldn't look as good. My bead blasted SKX on the other hand with its fixed steel bezel I just throw on without a care. It's been knocked around quite a bit, and shows absolutely no signs of it.


The thing is, as I see it - life happens.

You can buy a tool watch and be really careful with it, because this material can be dinged, or dented, or scratched, and that material can be chipped, or shattered, or you can just wear it.

I'm always bumping into $h1t as I lumber around. I can't have nice things. I like things that can take a beating, and/or look better as they take one.

I get that the Huldra's aluminum bezel may be scratched, but think about it - if you're going to swipe it against something which would scratch it, a smidge more to the side, and your wrist is banging that thing hard enough to shatter sapphire or ceramic.

How much better off are you with one versus the other, if both can be damaged? The difference may be that aluminum takes damage more easily, but the damage is minor, whereas if the ceramic is damaged, it's going to be catastrophic.

I'm not Mr. Moneybags. I'd *NEVER* spend $600 on a watch if I didn't own a watch company. If I did, I'd want it to be tough as hell, because I can't afford to piss away $600 on something I know is going to get beat to hell if I'm wearing it.

I know the horse is dead already, but - steel is the deal. Everything else is just a future repair/replacement waiting to happen.



Davekaye90 said:


> Out of curiosity, how much extra effort/expense would it be for you guys to offer different bezel options, say glossy or brushed, similar to the date/no date options? I certainly didn't mind the brushed look on my Nacken when I had it, but I probably would've preferred glossy.


It's never going to happen.

Every "optional" variation doubles the number of SKUs, and adds another layer of complexity.

1 watch x 2 colors = 2 SKUs.

Add date/no-date x 2 colors = 4 SKUs.

Add glossy/brushed bezel finish x 2 date window options x 2 colors = 8 SKUs.

I need to make at least 50 pieces of each SKU. If I do ONE model, in TWO colors, both with date/no-date options, that's 200 pieces. Add bezel finish options, it's 400 pieces, 200 of which will have glossy bezels, even if only 20 guys would want one.

I'd rather make different dial designs and colors than try to figure out the market demand for a glossy bezel finish which - candidly - I think is a bad idea, since glossy is going to show scratches more than brushed, and create more need for post-sale support, with replacement bezel insert requests.

I didn't pick brushed finish on a whim. I gave it a lot of thought. It wears better than both glossy and blasted.



Davekaye90 said:


> As for the 9015, really the only thing I don't like about it is the uni-directional winding which makes it free-spin. I'm sure some folks are miffed by the -10/+30 minimum specs, but I'm sure in the real world most of them are much more accurate than that. I'll also happily take the 9015's free-spinning rotor over the 6R15's 21.6K BPH beat rate. In undecorated form it's not the prettiest thing to look at, but it's no worse than anything Seiko makes short of GS movements, and plenty of micros have made very attractive looking versions of it. It'll never look as pretty as something like an Omega Co-axial, but of course you're not paying Omega money for it, or Omega service costs.


I actually like the free-spinning rotor. It helps extend the service life, and helps make the movement thinner. The "wobble" I occasionally feel reminds me I'm wearing a cool little mechanical gizmo, something with a quirky little aspect of its design, and I feel connected to it.

The specs are wildly conservative, if that's a thing. I once picked 6 watches with 9015's out of my case at random, and put them all on my timegrapher. Not only were they all running under 8 seconds per day, they were all running within 2 seconds per day of each other.

I've never understood why people complain about how it looks, especially people who also say they like the Unitas 6497/8, which has a similarly "industrial" look to it. It's Scarlett Johansson next to a standard 2824-2. It comes with "Tokyo Stripes" and a radially-brushed rotor right out of the box. If a big-name, luxury Swiss brand had released it, the blogoshere would collectively wet itself, and create new superlatives to describe it.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Chris - Just pre-ordered my 6th NTH, a blue Barracuda and in addition to my 2 Orthos, my 8th Doc watch.



This modded Barracuda lost its bracelet and red OEM lumed bezel insert to its previous owner. Found that the new Glidelock bracelets fit (barely) and I would like to find an OEM red insert. Do any lumed red inserts exist and any chance I can purchase one?


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

yankeexpress said:


> Chris - Just pre-ordered my 6th NTH, a blue Barracuda and in addition to my 2 Orthos, my 8th Doc watch.
> 
> 
> 
> This modded Barracuda lost its bracelet and red OEM lumed bezel insert to its previous owner. Found that the new Glidelock bracelets fit (barely) and I would like to find an OEM red insert. Do any lumed red inserts exist and any chance I can purchase one?


That looks pretty cool. Gotta get one of those glide lock bracelets for my Blue Scorpene (officially ordered!).

Pretty certain none of the NTH Subs had ever had a red bezel insert. Orthos, yes, but the inserts aren't compatible.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

JakeJD said:


> That looks pretty cool. Gotta get one of those glide lock bracelets for my Blue Scorpene (officially ordered!).
> 
> Pretty certain none of the NTH Subs had ever had a red bezel insert. Orthos, yes, but the inserts aren't compatible.


You are correct, the OEM insert was lumed Brown


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> Chris - Just pre-ordered my 6th NTH, a blue Barracuda and in addition to my 2 Orthos, my 8th Doc watch.
> 
> This modded Barracuda lost its bracelet and red OEM lumed bezel insert to its previous owner. Found that the new Glidelock bracelets fit (barely) and I would like to find an OEM red insert. Do any lumed red inserts exist and any chance I can purchase one?


Source for the bracelet please.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

mplsabdullah said:


> Source for the bracelet please.


Be aware these are difficult to install on NTH Sub lugs and require serious persuasion of the springbars to get them to seat in the lug holes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-...m=182147909464&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507


----------



## huwp (Nov 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> Pus, I don't think tritium really *IS* so much brighter than other forms of lume. I think its benefit is that it doesn't need to be charged, but I don't think it's actually brighter. It often looks less bright than Superluminova, especially depending on the color and quantity of the SL.


In my experience - if you put two watches, one with well-charged superluminova and the other with tritium side by side and turn out all the lights:

The superluminova is WAY brighter than tritium for the first 10-20 minutes, comparable to tritium for the next half hour or so, and then dimmer than the tritium for the rest of the night. By morning the superluminova is a vague dim glow while the tritium looks way brighter by comparison as it is still shining just as brightly as it was at the start of the night, and by now your eyes are highly adapted to the dark.

If the tritium has lost half of its brightness after 12 years due to one halftime's worth of decay, then the superluminova will maybe be ahead for the first 20-40 minutes of this test, after which the tritium's steady (albeit steady at a lower level) glow will then still be ahead. Another 12 years later, maybe the superluminova is ahead on brightness for the first hour or so (but hey we are talking about 25 years elapsed time by now and are you really going to complain about 25 years of service...)

I keep a cheap plastic tritium quartz next to bed for reading the time during the night. It's tritium so I don't ever need to think about charging the lume and it's always clearly readable all night without being bright enough to be disturbing, it's quartz so I don't ever need to think about winding it or even keeping it solar charged, it's quartz so I don't ever need to think about accuracy (I'll adjust the time twice a year for start and end of daylight saving time), it's plastic (and quartz) so if I fumble it with sleepy fingers it'll bounce. I'll probably never wear it out of the house but it's fit for purpose.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> After 50 years Tritium is brighter than 50 year old SL paint? Or new SL? I assume you've seen all of the various Rolexes for sale with "T" markers on their dials. Their Tritium lume is D.E.A.D. dead, and they aren't 50 years old yet. I don't think 50 year old watches with modern style Tritium gas light tubes exist, so it's impossible to say how they'll look. Something like a current Ball though vs. a watch with C3 X1 SL at full charge, the Ball will be nowhere near as bright. C3 X1 at full tilt is like blast furnace bright. After a couple of hours, the Ball will definitely look brighter, but C3 X1 is definitely readable for at least 8 hours assuming it doesn't have another light source to compete with. It will likely be unreadable in a darkened auditorium for example, but perfectly readable during the night at home.
> 
> The other problem is Tritium severely limits you in terms of what you can do with shapes. You can't completely fill broad sword hands with lume like you can with SL, you're stuck just plonking tubes on top. Ball has some hour marker designs that aren't the usual tube shape, but they can't do anything else with their handsets. They also have no ability to make luminous Arabic numerals like you would want on a pilot or field watch without making them look like old school segmented LCD display numbers. Not pretty.


Love my Ball Engineer Green Beret! Great watch and COSC.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

yankeexpress said:


> You are correct, the OEM insert was lumed Brown


Right. I guess my point was, if Chris never made a Sub with a red bezel insert, why would he have a red bezel insert for a Sub that he could sell?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

A Blue Sub for Friday.........









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Chris - Just pre-ordered my 6th NTH, a blue Barracuda and in addition to my 2 Orthos, my 8th Doc watch.
> 
> 
> 
> This modded Barracuda lost its bracelet and red OEM lumed bezel insert to its previous owner. Found that the new Glidelock bracelets fit (barely) and I would like to find an OEM red insert. Do any lumed red inserts exist and any chance I can purchase one?


Thanks for your business, Chris. Please understand I don't conduct business via the forum. I'm not allowed to, and it's not how I would do things anyway. I ask all customers to please contact me via email, or through the website.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

huwp said:


> In my experience - if you put two watches, one with well-charged superluminova and the other with tritium side by side and turn out all the lights:
> 
> The superluminova is WAY brighter than tritium for the first 10-20 minutes, comparable to tritium for the next half hour or so, and then dimmer than the tritium for the rest of the night. By morning the superluminova is a vague dim glow while the tritium looks way brighter by comparison as it is still shining just as brightly as it was at the start of the night, and by now your eyes are highly adapted to the dark.
> 
> ...


Some thoughts on tritium...

I also have a tritium quartz next to the bed as my grab-and-go watch (it's my weekend yardwork watch), and this is my experience as well. By midnight or so, the tritium is far brighter than whatever watch I wore that day, and this is T25 to boot. With my dark adjusted eyes, the watch is easy to spot from across the room. I have tritium fobs on my flashlights and keys for finding them in the dark, since I live in earthquake country.

That's another comparison - T25 is 25 mC or less radiation, while T100 is 100 mC or less (so technically T100 could be as low as 26 mC in a budget watch). The serious tritium watch guys typically have a full charge in their T100 watches, and the glow is quite bright - too bright for many people. These will be that much brighter after 25 years than a T25 watch. Of course, replacing the lume on a (future) vintage watch made with tritium tubes is likely to be a lot more difficult than re-luming a traditionally lumed watch, but maybe tube replacement services will pop up in the future.

Finally, the dead tritium watches you see today used tritium lume rather than tubes, and I have some 25 year-ish tritium watches where the glow is stone dead. These will be more limited in how much they glow, since it's a solid material, and the radiation from tritium is quite weak when it comes to penetrating solids. There may be some glow left on the inside of the lume, but you'll never see it. Tritium tubes are going to have a visible glow longer, since it's a gas exciting a layer on the inside of the glass vial, and the gas will always have tritium exposed to the lume, even as it decays, due to the gas molecules drifting about.

Anyway, I'm a big fan of tritium tubes, but am ambivalent about getting them on something nice like a Ball, due to the limited life. I'm pretty sure a new Ball will outlive me, though.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just won a PayPal chargeback dispute against someone who wanted a refund when I told him a loose bracelet screw should have some thread-locker applied to the threads.

Some days, it's the little things...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Another installment of awesome in-progress factory pics...


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Dang the only one that wasn't on my radar, the blue-racuda looks amazing!

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

^Those fume dials look amazing...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Gotta love those, fuming, sprayed, fading - well, you know what they are - Nacken dials, each one is unique, they really are superbly crafted. All of the watches in those photos look almost TOO good, kudos to your factory Chris, the photos scream quality.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Another installment of awesome in-progress factory pics...
> 
> View attachment 13224419
> 
> ...


Holy sh.....

Doc, you've outdone yourself with this most recent run. Everything looks better than I could have hoped. I'm so excited about my orders for a barracuda and renegade! They both look awesome

Thanks for the pics and keeping us up to date


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Another installment of awesome in-progress factory pics...
> 
> View attachment 13224419
> 
> ...


No NO NO NO NO. Blurpene is my beloved -- do not tempt me with these faithless Bluracudas, fumey Renegades, and orange Swordfists! Bad!


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> Another installment of awesome in-progress factory pics...
> 
> View attachment 13224419
> 
> ...


Those are beautiful! And it seems your factory has finally upgraded their camera lol!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> No NO NO NO NO. Blurpene is my beloved -- do not tempt me with these faithless Bluracudas, fumey Renegades, and orange Swordfists! Bad!


I'm legally changing my name to Clipperton Swordfists.

I'm buying a van, and getting a mural on the side, featuring the dragon from the Asia album cover.

Like this:









Except with this:


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'm legally changing my name to Clipperton Swordfists.
> 
> I'm buying a van, and getting a mural on the side, featuring the dragon from the Asia album cover.
> 
> ...


You know that you really want that on a custom dial, 'fess up.........


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

JakeJD said:


> No NO NO NO NO. Blurpene is my beloved -- do not tempt me with these faithless Bluracudas, fumey Renegades, and orange Swordfists!  Bad!


It's all good @JakeJD. Repeat after me: Blurpene, Blurpene, Blurpene...


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> I'm legally changing my name to Clipperton Swordfists.
> 
> I'm buying a van, and getting a mural on the side, featuring the dragon from the Asia album cover.
> 
> ...


And you can park it

DOWN BY THE RIVER!










I'm out, barbecue time. Have a great F Day weekend, ya'll!


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> Some thoughts on tritium...
> 
> I also have a tritium quartz next to the bed as my grab-and-go watch (it's my weekend yardwork watch), and this is my experience as well. By midnight or so, the tritium is far brighter than whatever watch I wore that day, and this is T25 to boot. With my dark adjusted eyes, the watch is easy to spot from across the room. I have tritium fobs on my flashlights and keys for finding them in the dark, since I live in earthquake country.
> 
> ...












Flat tubes work even more so since it has more surface area I agree half life won't me a 1:1 since the tritium is exciting phosphorus in the tubes and they are much less bright than torched lume but anything more than 20 minutes later they rock


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Guys, I'm posting this here because I believe it may do some good. If a few rational people can go out into the world and spread reason and logic, perhaps they can persuade others, and some day, we'll all look at things fairly. At the very least, maybe we can kill off some lingering fallacies.

I'm sure that sounds too optimistic, but I've been pleasantly surprised to see a number of instances recently, involving the reasonable voices outnumbering the unreasonable, so here goes...

I lurk in many threads in this forum and others. I frequently see threads started by someone raising some issue involving some company, and very often, the initial responses from the crowd are along the lines of "clearly defective, send it back", or "they should fix that for you", or "file a chargeback dispute", or "name and shame".

Allow me to suggest that sort of thinking isn't always going to get you where you want to go.

I've been doing this five years, sold over 4,000 watches, and have had to handle a few dozen complaints. In 100% of them, the root of the problem lay in unrealistic expectations. In many cases, those expectations were bolstered by an idealistic - and completely irrational - sense of self-importance and entitlement.

Every year, there are a handful of guys who become "problem customers". Sometimes, they'll attempt to turn a small problem into a big problem, by complaining online, or, more recently, filing a dispute with some "higher authority".

I can specifically recall at least three instances involving someone trying to publicly shame me. I wasn't prepared for the first, but I've been prepared ever since, and once prepared, shutting them down is pretty easy. Most attempts end quickly, and the person making the attempt is the one who ends up retreating in shame.

Until this year, the only chargeback disputes I ever faced involved credit card fraud - someone checking out using a credit card number which didn't belong to them. Those weren't complaints about my product or business.

But today I dealt with the second chargeback complaint in as many months - and I won both - so I feel like I can speak about this stuff from a position of authority.

*First - public shaming doesn't work.*

If my company sells a good product at a fair price, and backs it up with good service, the most you can do with a public shaming is turn a few people off to the brand. But, really, anyone who's going to automatically believe one side of a story, no matter how preposterous it sounds, probably isn't the type of customer we wanted anyway.

Everyone else is either going to know that the story is false, suspect it's false, or reserve judgment until hearing more. If the company has a good reputation, people will speak up, and the discussion turns into a battle of anecdotal experience. If the company gives its side, it becomes a he-said/she-said affair, at best. At worst, the company's version of events is clearly more plausible - if not documented - and the person trying to shame the company looks like a fool.

Does that mean you should never relate tales of bad service? No, that's not what it means. If you have REALISTIC expectations from a company, which aren't met, and that story is mirrored by enough others, the company's reputation will become known to all.

On the other hand, if you try to publicly shame a company unfairly, you're more than likely helping the company, whether you realize it or not. You're making them look sympathetic by being a jerk yourself. If other people speak up in the company's defense, those testimonials are powerful, and make the company look better, not worse.

Every time someone's trolled me, here, in blog review comments, on FB - I see a spike in traffic to my website, an increase in customer accounts being created, and an increase in sales. People come out of the woodwork, on both sides, but the praise my business gets ALWAYS sounds louder and more credible than the sniveling, callow haters.

Some people think it's a PR nightmare for me, and I'd be better off giving in rather than letting the story go public. They're wrong. Those public shaming threads are a net benefit to me. Every wingnut who hears my side, yet still says, "I'd never do business with that guy" is EXACTLY the type of customer I DON'T want, meanwhile, a TON of people see how I respond and think "I like the cut of this guy's jib. He doesn't put up with nonsense. I like that he stands up for himself."

The key is to have REALISTIC expectations, which does not mean the company has to do whatever it takes to please you because you gave them some amount of money, no matter how much it is. Trying to embarrass a company because you're angry is rarely if ever an effective means of dealing with a problem.

*Second - take some personal responsibility.*

Do you ever read a company's policies before you buy? No? Why not? You could save yourself a lot of hassle. If a company doesn't post them, clearly, succinctly, and make them easy to find - buyer beware.

I've read comments on this forum from EU members, who believe the EU requires all sellers to accept returns for 14 days - unconditionally. I recently had a call with a seller in the EU, who put the lie to that belief. It was explained that the EU law requires returns for up to 14 days - in NEW, AS-DELIVERED condition.

That's exactly my policy, but for 30 days. It's Christopher Ward's policy for 60 days. It's the policy for almost every company that sells anything - refunds are contingent upon goods being unused. Why are so many people laboring under the belief that it's otherwise?

Is it the company's fault? Perhaps, if the company's actions have served to foster the belief, even if it's untrue, by hiding their policy in the fine-print. But that's really no excuse for any consumer to avoid responsibility for their own actions.

If you can't be bothered to look into a company's returns policy and warranty before handing over $500 or more, you shouldn't be buying anything, period. You wouldn't switch mobile carriers without knowing the data plan or contract length.

Again - I think I know what drives this. People (mistakenly) believe that perfection is a reasonable expectation, public shaming works, PayPal will always side with the buyer, and companies should (or can be forced to) eat the costs of buyer negligence.

But none of that is true.

My first dispute this year involved a guy who pre-ordered a watch, then moved, but never contacted us to update his shipping address, despite the fact we sent out half a dozen messages asking pre-order customers to do just that, messages I can prove he opened, multiple times, and clicked links therein.

He never bothered to read or reply. He just updated his address in his customer account, which doesn't automatically update orders (as I said, clearly, in those emails), it just saves the address for future orders, which is EXACTLY how all ecommerce systems work. His credit card company sided with me.

My second dispute involved a guy with one loose bracelet screw. I tried to explain the situation - it needs thread-locker. If we put it on during assembly, you'd have to re-apply it after sizing the bracelet. If we didn't put it on during assembly, you'd have to apply it.

Either way, loose screws happen. They're not defects, and not our responsibility to fix. If your bracelet goes flying off your wrist, I'm not replacing it, or issuing a refund. I can't fix stupid. PayPal sided with me.

Each of those cases involved about $600-$700. It certainly wasn't a good use of my time, but as I say to other brand owners, if you give in on one, word gets out, and you get viewed as an easy mark. You're only inviting bad behavior by rewarding it.

From someone who's shut down dozens of attempts to shame me or rob me - my record of success in these matters is 100% PERFECT - allow me to offer some advice about what to look for pre-purchase, and how to handle various issues post-purchase:

*1. Read the terms, particularly the returns policy and warranty, which go together. This is what you want to know:*

*+ Warranty period*

Is it one year? Two? Five? None?

Speaking from my experience, it doesn't matter much if it's one year or five, because 99% of problems will show up right away, within the first week of ownership.

Longer isn't necessarily better. If a company offers a longer-than-usual warranty period, it's probably worth reading the fine print to see what's actually covered, and thinking how much of the price you're paying is the company's inclusion of their costs involved in providing extended warranty service.

I'm not knocking Christopher Ward's 60 day returns-60 month service guarantee, but as an example of the above - 60 months is 5 years, which is right about the time watchmakers say you should have a mechanical watch serviced if you're wearing it all the time.

Odds are the warranty will expire before you get around to looking for that card, finding it, and sending the watch in because it's running 30 seconds fast/slow. But meanwhile, people love the sound of a 5 year insurance policy, and are willing to pay for it, even if it's of dubious practical value.

*+ What is covered under warranty, specifically, without any ambiguity whatsoever, not even a smidge. *

No warranty covers everything a lot of people seem to think. Every time someone says, "it should be covered by warranty", I reach for my wallet, and say a silent prayer that they'll want to bet on it. I'd win 80% of those bets, at least.

Our warranty covers mechanical malfunction of the movement, and any issues arising from assembly errors, meaning parts failing because they were assembled incorrectly. That's what most warranties cover.

It doesn't cover cross-threaded crowns. It doesn't cover magnetism. It doesn't cover the watch running 5 minutes/day fast or slow right after you knocked it off your nightstand. It doesn't cover a dial that fades when you leave it in the sun for 6 months (true story).

It doesn't cover a patch of lume that dries unevenly, or a tiny, hairline scratch on the frame of a handset, that you found with an electron microscope.

It doesn't cover external damage you swear was there on arrival, but didn't think would bother you, but now does, 3 weeks later. Sorry, we can't know how the dent got there, but we assume you did it wearing the watch.

It doesn't cover mis-aligned bezels or hands, which you thought you could live with, and tried to ignore, but now you want it fixed, 3 months later. Sorry, but there are QC standards each piece conforms to, and the standard on alignment of hand-installed parts is not 100% perfection.

It doesn't cover loose bracelet screws, or clasps which fail because you've got an 8 inch bracelet or strap on a 9 inch wrist. Loose bracelet screws need loctite. Clasps, buckles, and all the other little parts in bracelets and straps sometimes break. Spring bars, too. You can't put all that back onto the seller.

If you're certain perfection is the standard, and the warranty covers it, you're likely wrong, and you may want to ask the company what their QC standard is before telling them what you think it ought to be. Trust me, we know better than you.

*+ The returns policy, to include the period of time when returns are accepted, for refund or replacement, and the required conditions for returns.*

This is why the warranty doesn't need to guarantee perfection, right here.

If the returns policy says you can return for refund/replacement within 14, 30, or 60 days, so long as the item is in as-delivered condition, but you rush to get it on the wrist, then you find the bezel or hands are slightly out of alignment, or there's a ding in the lugs, or whatever - that's on you, not on them.

If you find something which isn't perfect, and that's what you expect - don't wear it; send it back! Wearing something, then complaining about it later makes you look like a petulant child.

Buyer's remorse is a real thing. If you're not comfortable spending the money, but you spend it anyway, you'll find a reason to complain later. Be an adult, and listen to your inner voice. If it tells you not to make the purchase, don't. You'll regret it later if you do.

Perfection isn't the QC standard, and doesn't have to be, if you can send something back. Perfection can still be your personal standard - until the moment you wear it. At that moment, you own it, and the company only has to abide by its own terms, not your demands.

If you're unhappy about the alignments, don't wear it, send it back. If the dial printing isn't perfect, don't wear it, send it back. If the bracelet squeaks, don't wear it, send it back. If the color looks different than the website, don't wear it, send it back.

Whatever it is, if it bothers you, don't go online to b1tch about it, and don't wear it, just send it back. Life's too short.

Don't swap the bracelet for a strap, wear it, decide you don't like it, then put the bracelet - still wrapped in plastic - back on it, and send it back to me. We'll know, right away. Don't open the case, fiddle with the movement, then tell me it doesn't work any more. We'll know, right away.

Angry, pouty, threatening emails don't work. At least, not with me. They may work with others, but there's a rising trend of business owners standing up to such bullying tactics.

My saying this is going to make some eyes bleed, but I'm something of a thought-leader among micro-brand owners, many of whom I speak to regularly, and who come to me for advice. I tell all of them to hold the line on all this stuff.

*What does work?*

Courtesy, to start. I have a digital record of every exchange I've ever had with every customer who contacted me about anything. Acting like an arse in a two-week email exchange, culminating in a public shaming thread, or filing a PayPal dispute, isn't a smart strategy.

Someone who emails me with an accusatory, belligerent message is going to find me much less willing to find a solution than someone who inquires (that is to say "ASKS") about an issue and what our stance is on it. Ask me anything, but demand nothing, if you want the best results. Most business owners feel the same, I assure you.

Understand that you're not the center of the universe, and not all solutions are instant, helps. If you contact someone now, it may be the middle of the night where they are. Give then a couple days to respond before you lose your $hlt.

Reading/listening, and considering what you're being told helps. If I tell you the watch is likely magnetized, it's likely magnetized. If I say a loose screw needs thread-locker, it needs thread-locker. If I tell you what you're seeing with your crown is normal, it's normal. If I ask you to follow some troubleshooting steps before we arrange for a return, read and follow the damned steps, in order, precisely, to the letter, and report back when the watch fails one.

If you press me, and I feel forced to PROVE what I'm saying is correct, I can do that, but all you're doing is delaying the solution, and making both of us angry. It's not personal, so don't make it personal.

It's not a contest of wills, but if it is, I'm winning it, 100% of the time. I can sit here and run my business all day. How long do you have for lunch, before you have to get back to work? I can spend two hours putting together the documentation to win a PayPal dispute. Can you? I can and frequently do work for days on end, without food or rest. Can you? I'm relentless. Are you? I'll die before I surrender. Will you?

You're fighting over a few hundred dollars. I'm fighting for the business which feeds my kids. Consider your opponent. You may want to hurt me, but you're about to start a land war in Asia. That's one of the classic blunders.

If you think business owners are looking for a way to deny you service, because we're all untrustworthy, greedy sumb1tches, look inward, and recognize that's a reflection of your own miserly soul.

If you think we all have to bow and scrape to please you, keep your goddam money. I don't want it. The amount involved does NOT matter. There's no excuse for behaving like a spoiled rich-kid with a broken toy. Starting any statement with "for that much money..." is a conversation-ender.

Think logically. Every business wants to enjoy a good reputation, and repeat patronage. I have every incentive to address all reasonable concerns in a reasonable way, and in a timely manner. Why wouldn't I do just that?

Admitting your own part in a mishap helps. Tell me you didn't update your address, I'll try to help. But don't blame me for shipping to the address you provided, or refuse to drive 6 miles to get the package waiting there.

Tell me the package was stolen from your doorstep, and I'll do what I can to help you with the claim. But security at your location is YOUR responsibility, not mine. Get a locking parcel delivery box and set it outside your door if your neighborhood has an unsavory element. Don't expect me to eat the costs of your unpreparedness.

Realize that the person delivering the package doesn't care who signs for it. They don't ask for ID unless it's required, and it usually isn't. There's nothing I can do to ensure delivery if you don't do your part.

Realize that if you live in a secure apartment building, and you're receiving a package, the courier needs to get inside. Maybe instead, consider having the package shipped to your office, or getting a PO box, like I have.

PO boxes are $3/month for the smallest size. If a package doesn't fit, they'll stick it on a shelf, and put a note in your box. Don't be stupid. Get a PO box if you like to order stuff through the mail, and don't want to risk a problem like stolen packages, missed deliveries, arrivals while you're on vacation, etc.

Asking before buying - about anything - helps. My site has a full set of FAQ's on the same page as all the info regarding shipping, returns, and warranty, but I still get questions. It's cool, if you're asking something in an effort to avoid a potential problem post-sale. I'll answer those emails all day long.

Before anyone speaks up to argue any of the above, please read these disclaimers:

1. I keep records of everything. When I'm alerted of a dispute, I gather and submit full and detailed records. If you think PayPal and CC companies always side with the buyer, they don't. They side with the person who provides the best documentation that they acted right, and adhered to the letter of the terms provided by everyone involved. Trust me, I know PayPal and merchant processor requirements better than you do, especially if you never bothered to read them. I had today's dispute resolved in my favor within 10 minutes of getting the alert.

2. I know there are some shady companies out there, who deserve to be shamed. Go ahead and shame a company, if you must, but be HONEST about what happened, and be ready for the blowback. If you're dishonest, you'll more than likely be exposed as such. Forum rules will not save you from embarrassment if you lie about me, I guarantee it. I will document your own feckless behavior in painstaking detail if you try to drag my name through the mud rather than accept what I've told you. If you try to harm another business, many will speak up if that business is well run and taking care of its customers. You're walking into a pie, face-first.

3. There's no such thing as free insurance against the consequences of stupidity, impatience, and other human frailties which lead to failure. I can charge you more for "signature delivery", and packages would still be stolen, after "signed" delivery. I've seen it happen (not in my business, thankfully, but other brands have reported it). The claims won't be paid, and you won't win the chargeback dispute. I can and will update your address if you ask me to, but I can't do anything to re-route a package once it's shipped. If you use the wrong tool in the wrong way, and destroy your watch trying to "fix", modify or size it, that's on you, not on me.

4. The pants I'm wearing are big-boy pants. I sell watches for $400-$600. That's big-boy money. I comport myself like an adult. I expect others to also act like adults. Whinging about problems doesn't solve them, even in this virtual fantasy land of the internet. Action does. If you can't figure out what proper actions to take, consider that the internet isn't the ideal resource for developing "life skills". 100 idiots on the forum may agree with you, but they're still 100 idiots. Better to take advice from one guy who knows what he's talking about, or, if you think that guy's a jerk, do some research on your own - which is NOT the same as asking people on the internet - and find the answers for yourself. I guarantee you'll feel more confident reading the fine-print than taking someone else's word about what it says.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

That's it. Long week. Time to eat, drink, and be merry.

HAGWE errbuddy, I'm out.

PEACE!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

huwp said:


> I keep a cheap plastic tritium quartz next to bed for reading the time during the night. It's tritium so I don't ever need to think about charging the lume and it's always clearly readable all night without being bright enough to be disturbing, it's quartz so I don't ever need to think about winding it or even keeping it solar charged, it's quartz so I don't ever need to think about accuracy (I'll adjust the time twice a year for start and end of daylight saving time), it's plastic (and quartz) so if I fumble it with sleepy fingers it'll bounce. I'll probably never wear it out of the house but it's fit for purpose.


I've honestly never had a problem reading any of my regular lumed watches at any time of the night....except my Aevig Huldra. That watch uses I think "old radium" C3, or if not that one exactly, one of the Luminova versions that looks similar. In any case, it's terrible. At a full charge it's pretty dim, and dark within about 20 minutes or so. My various Seikos with whatever versions of Lumibrite have always been readable all night long, even the dirt cheap Seiko 5, and certainly the SARB059 dial and the MM300 dial remain quite bright and easily readable. The C3 on my Zodiac Sea Wolf is ok, but definitely weaker than the Seikos, same with the BGW9 on my Evant. By far the strongest of them all though, and the only one to take down the Marine Master dial was my Borealis Cascais with its C3 X1. That stuff is seriously crazy bright.

None of them also need that much of a "charge" either. I tend to swap watches every 3-4 days or so, and so several of them just sit in the case for a few days on my dresser, which has a glass top. Even though they've never left the case that day, much less the house, and have gotten no direct sun light, just having the overhead bedroom light on for a bit before going to bed is enough.

Still, every now and then I get the urge to try a Tritium watch just to see what they're like, but I haven't really found one that appeals to me enough to spend the money on. The Fireman Racer Classic is very slick....except for that horrible 4:30 date which ruins the whole thing. I really wish Ball had more no-date options.


----------



## MStillwood (Dec 10, 2007)

Got this in a trade and am super happy with it. Very impressed. Thanks for making such a cool piece.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Another installment of awesome in-progress factory pics...


Cool to see the new dials in the flesh. One thing... is it just me, or does the Renegade dial seem much more this:










Than this:


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Love my Ball Marvelight....and the Devil Ray...both great watches








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

I'm always here but seldom posts but I wanted to drop in just to comment that that novel doc just posted is the kind of conversations I have with myself while stuck in LA traffic.

Also, gotta be honest and say that none of the recent subs make me think that my vintage blue Nackën needs a companion.......wait is that the Bluerracuda ?


----------



## taileon (Aug 7, 2017)




----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

In Amsterdam with my trusted Amphion. And after having no luck spotting any fairly priced vintage blue Nackens on Watchrecon or eBay over the past few months, I'm happily awaiting mine from this most recent pre-order round


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Horoticus said:


> ^Those fume dials look amazing...


Are they genuine fume?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Jtragic said:


> Are they genuine fume?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If it turns out they aren't, I'm sure you can just do a charge back, false advertising and all.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

What kind of fumes do they put out? Im guessing cheesesteak and snarkery. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Pppp


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Yeah, the fume does look more whilver than actual blue.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

docvail said:


> I can and frequently do work for days on end, without food or rest. Can you? I'm relentless. Are you? I'll die before I surrender. Will you?


The best line in that WOT.

Amat Victoria Curam, I'm sure Doc has seen 'The Mechanic' with Jason Statham.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ratfacedgit said:


> The best line in that WOT.
> 
> Amat Victoria Curam, I'm sure Doc has seen 'The Mechanic' with Jason Statham.


I'm sure it all reads like an angry rant to many. It's not. I'm not angry. I feel triumphant, after winning out in another minor skirmish.

I'm encouraged to see some signs of change, both in what I read online, and what I hear from other business owners.

There's no such thing as a business with 100% customer satisfaction. We all have some small percentage of wing-nuts who try to get over.

Most people are fair, and would never even think to try and pull some of the shenanigans I've seen. But how many of you speak up in defense of reason when you see those threads? I'm sure most people who think as I do don't want to get involved, but remaining silent only implies agreement, in the minds of these loons. That's why I'm happy to see it when people do tell it like it is, rather than encouraging bad behavior and faulty thinking.

Would it help if I reminded everyone that every business has to charge all its customers a little more to compensate for the small minority who take advantage and suck up the company's resources? Every hour I spend dealing with nonsense is an hour I can't spend serving my customers.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Are future releases planned for the Lew & Huey brand or is the focus on NTH for now? Just wondering...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



winstoda said:


> Are future releases planned for the Lew & Huey brand or is the focus on NTH for now? Just wondering...


For the moment my focus is on NTH, but never say never.


----------



## HeyWhatTimeIsIt (Apr 29, 2010)

Loving this thread.

Friend of mine worked in a GAP call center one holiday season.

Probably the worst job in the (first) world.

Constant stream of wing nuts and some of them get quite abusive.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

HeyWhatTimeIsIt said:


> Loving this thread.
> 
> Friend of mine worked in a GAP call center one holiday season.
> 
> ...


About 20 years ago I worked in a call center. After a long rant this guy called one of the young lady reps a "waste of sp34m". Young lady just broke down crying. Eventually I worked up to the department that actually made customer service final decisions. The joy I had in helping respectful people by occasionally bending rules was only surpassed by the joy I had in sticking to the letter of rules when (with a smile) I told rude people there was nothing I could do for them.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'm sure it all reads like an angry rant to many. It's not. I'm not angry. I feel triumphant, after winning out in another minor skirmish.
> 
> I'm encouraged to see some signs of change, both in what I read online, and what I hear from other business owners.
> 
> ...


Man, I ran my own one man show website small business for about 10 years. I only had 2 charge backs in all that time, doing 5 to 10 orders a day. Like you, I served up an inch thick paper trail defense, once ruled in my favor and one despite all evidence that I was blameless (package showed as delivered, customer claimed never received) they made me eat it. Grrrr, I know your frustration.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> For the moment my focus is on NTH, but never say never.


On that note.. (or, well, not *that* note but...)

I kinda feel like if you ever decide to make a third brand, the name will need to be even shorter to keep up the progression: "Lew & Huey" -> "NTH" - > "P"?


----------



## Pakz (Aug 16, 2011)

Just because...









Tapatalk'ed over the intertubes from my awesome bacon


----------



## taileon (Aug 7, 2017)

Still amazed by the lume on this one 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## DrGonzo (Aug 29, 2014)

Re bezels: my experience is anecdotal but I've been banging away (at work) on the lovely tungsten bezel on my grey Aquis 40 for a few years, and its reputation for brittleness seems undeserved.

Just an observation, not a demand to change up what you are doing with the subs. Love the Zwaardvis but I burned my 2018 watch budget early. (This includes buying my brother a Devilray, which he loves). Guess I'll be "on the curb watching the bus drive away."



Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DrGonzo said:


> Re bezels: my experience is anecdotal but I've been banging away (at work) on the lovely tungsten bezel on my grey Aquis 40 for a few years, and its reputation for brittleness seems undeserved.
> 
> Just an observation, not a demand to change up what you are doing with the subs. Love the Zwaardvis but I burned my 2018 watch budget early. (This includes buying my brother a Devilray, which he loves). Guess I'll be "on the curb watching the bus drive away."
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


There'll be another bus coming along shortly...

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DrGonzo said:


> Re bezels: my experience is anecdotal but I've been banging away (at work) on the lovely tungsten bezel on my grey Aquis 40 for a few years, and its reputation for brittleness seems undeserved.
> 
> Just an observation, not a demand to change up what you are doing with the subs. Love the Zwaardvis but I burned my 2018 watch budget early. (This includes buying my brother a Devilray, which he loves). Guess I'll be "on the curb watching the bus drive away."
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


On a serious note -

I didn't realize Oris made a model using tungsten. Glad to hear it's served you well.

My intent wasn't to impugn any material, only to explain why I've made the decisions I have regarding materials, while acknowledging that I know full well how many people will disagree with me, based on their own anecdotal experience, just as many disagree with me about many things, like Sellita movements, "Swiss Made", etc.

Generally, materials which are harder to scratch are also more brittle, and having less flex makes them more susceptible to chipping/breaking/shattering. The fact that it doesn't happen very frequently doesn't make what I'm saying untrue or less true. I'm just explaining the science, which simply is what it is, and is part of my reasoning.

Most people seem to emphasize how easy it is to inflict minor damage on a material. The reasoning seems to be "ceramic is hard to scratch, I hate scratched bezels, ipso facto, I want a ceramic bezel."

It seems perfectly logical, and it is, as far as it goes. But I think about it in other ways as well, wondering if there isn't a value in accepting less hardness in exchange for less brittleness, considering the consequences.

Let me try a different analogy. When I first started looking at watches, I briefly labored under the belief that mineral crystals were a good "best-of-both-worlds" middle-ground between acrylic and sapphire.

Sapphire is nearly scratch-proof, but can be shattered. Acrylic is nearly impossible to break, but can be easily scratched. Mineral is harder to scratch than acrylic, and harder to shatter than sapphire, and so, therefore, it must be the superior choice, right?

Everyone here knows that's nonsense. It may be harder to scratch than acrylic, but it will scratch, and its added hardness only makes it harder to get those scratches out, unlike acrylic, where a few minutes with some Polywatch will take the scratches out easily. And it may be harder to shatter than sapphire, but it will shatter if hit hard enough.

So, mineral crystal is clearly not a good middle ground. It's the worst, not the best, of both worlds.

With the bezel material, I see it differently.

Here, the fact that ceramic and sapphire CAN be chipped and shattered makes steel a compelling choice, because, short of spraying it with liquid nitrogen and smashing it, you're not breaking steel.

While steel can be dented or scratched, we can protect it with DLC (diamond-like-carbon) coatings. A steel DLC bezel is much easier/cheaper to replace than ceramic or sapphire, and if a replacement can't be had, I'd rather have a dented/scratched steel insert than a chipped/shattered ceramic or sapphire insert. This could be the difference between a watch you'll still wear and a watch you'll never wear again.

As for tungsten - what can I tell you? It's heavier than steel, and while it's harder, it's also more brittle. Hit it hard enough, it'll break. Until then, you're wearing a heavier watch, albeit one which is harder to dent or scratch as compared to steel.

These are trade-offs. They're all trade-offs. My point was that people often act as if one material is "better" than another, often better than the one I chose, and will act as if my product is less worthy because it doesn't offer "ceramic bezel", or whatever. But in my view, they're overlooking a lot that went into my choice, and I believe I also made the better choice all around, whether they realize it or not.

I'd rather have a Miyota 9015 than an ETA 2824-2, even though the ETA costs more, and it's "Swiss". I'm more interested in performance and long-term ownership costs. I'd rather have a steel bezel than a ceramic or sapphire bezel. I'd rather have a sapphire or acrylic crystal than a mineral one. These are all considered choices, based on understanding the real value and consequences of each choice.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Sapphire is nearly scratch-proof, but can be shattered. Acrylic is nearly impossible to break, but can be easily scratched. Mineral is harder to scratch than acrylic, and harder to shatter than sapphire, and so, therefore, it must be the superior choice, right?


This is why no one likes Hardlex.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> This is why no one likes Hardlex.


Isn't the better grade of Hardlex like what Seiko uses on the MM, SBDC, etc., almost impossible to shatter, though? I thought that was the point of it


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mattm0691 said:


> Isn't the better grade of Hardlex like what Seiko uses on the MM, SBDC, etc., almost impossible to shatter, though? I thought that was the point of it


Supposedly, but then the question is, how likely are you to shatter a sapphire crystal on your MM300, vs. scratch the Hardlex, and how much do scratches bother you? I suppose if you don't care at all what the crystal looks like as long as the watch is still readable, then there may be some advantage to Hardlex. Considering how many MM300s are likely to see serious professional dive work though, it would seem that sapphire would be the better call, which is why there's an entire after market industry that exists for replacing Hardlex crystals with sapphire versions.

I for one am very glad that my SDGC017 came with sapphire. The original owner clearly wore the watch regularly and made no attempt to baby it, as the polished bezel shows. The flat sapphire crystal though is flawless. Hardlex I'm sure wouldn't be.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Cool to see the new dials in the flesh. One thing... is it just me, or does the Renegade dial seem much more this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My bet is on the lighting being poor in the photos. While these pics are better than previous pics from Factory de Chris, they were still likely taken under fluorescents. I'd reserve judgement until Chris posts photos when he gets them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> My bet is on the lighting being poor in the photos. While these pics are better than previous pics from Factory de Chris, they were still likely taken under fluorescents. I'd reserve judgement until Chris posts photos when he gets them.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Plus - is your monitor calibrated?

Not for nothing, but I can't remember my current factory flubbing a color, ever. We specified Pantone color codes, and other than the variations we'll always get with an airbrushed dial, I expect the colors will be as specified.

And, not to make a joke serious, but about those monitors - I have two on my desk. The stand-alone monitor is the only one I use to judge colors, because the one on my laptop is $hlt, just as the one on my last laptop was.

Trust me, the Renegade has a blue-black fade dial, not gray-black, or any other color.

But, if you're unsure, just shoot me an email with a request to cancel your order. I'm sure I've got someone else out there looking for a Renegade. We'll have more available in the next round, just a few months down the road (aka, "the next bus").


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - Hardlex...

I have no idea how good/not-good it is, beyond the fact I once banged a Seiko SKX into a metal doo-hickey while walking around Home Depot, and it survived unscathed.

Have I mentioned I can't have nice things, because I'm constantly banging into $hlt as I lumber around?

Heh, "lumber". Home Depot....


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hardlex Fume dials *and* (inverse) hardlex (reverse) concave fume crystals.

$$$$$4


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

It's a Speedy Spectre kind of day.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Late to the bus stop. But I must say, that renegade is pretty nice. Can’t hop on the bus (if there’s still space, that is) at the moment, due to reasons. 

But congrats for the nice designs and an seemingly awesome product introduction (didn’t read everything now, but what I read suggests, it went well). 

Keep it up (i know you will) and expand your distribution network. It’s really awesome to see your business developing. That’s something I enjoy seeing even more, how you establish your brand in the watch world. 

I said it over and over again. That NtH Logo is a masterpiece - and suitable for the mass (I used google translator for this term, i hope it’s transporting what was meant positively) - unlike the special interest L&H logo (that’s nice as well in my opinion). 

Just my train of thought in regards of my readings here. Don’t judge too harsh  


Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Late to the bus stop. But I must say, that renegade is pretty nice. Can't hop on the bus (if there's still space, that is) at the moment, due to reasons.
> 
> But congrats for the nice designs and an seemingly awesome product introduction (didn't read everything now, but what I read suggests, it went well).
> 
> ...


Cheers.

My website and WatchGauge are both sold out of the Renegade. SeriousWatches.eu hasn't opened up their pre-sales yet, but it sounds like they mean to do that before week's end, in light of all the emails they've been getting from interested parties in the EU (I know that feel).

Whoever wants to be the first kid on their block to get a Renegade, but hasn't gotten one already, they'll have to get one from Europe, until we get more in stock this fall.

Considering the fact that we were doing full-price pre-orders, many of them with nothing more than illustrations (albeit good, 3D illustrations) to show, I think pre-orders went well.

Whatever versions aren't sold out already are down to single-digit inventory availability, and since I already paid the production costs, I'm not too worried about how quickly the rest will go. They can take 6 months to sell, for all I care (please, God, I'm not entirely serious, don't let them take 6 months to sell - baby needs new shoes).

I'm actually in the midst of trying to figure out if I want to add any more to my assembly order for October, and if so, which versions. I was just discussing it with both Watch Gauge and SeriousWatches, and I've got a call planned for tomorrow with another retailer we're trying to bring on board.

For October-ish delivery, along with more of the Renegade and Scorpene Blue, we've got the project going with the guys in the BSHT threads, the Catalina for the Urban Gentry, another limited edition for Watch Gauge, 2 ladies/unisex versions, plus 3 more all-new men's versions, to be revealed after we deliver on the batch currently in assembly.

Is that enough, leading into the Holidays? I don't know. It's 600 pieces so far, with another 300 in reserve for future delivery, but 150 of those 600 are already sold/reserved.

With new retailers coming on board, I'm in uncharted territory, and trying to figure out if it's enough, versus making more, which might be too many. Being out of stock of everything for so long wasn't nearly as much fun as I thought it would be, only marginally more fun than having too much in inventory.

I'm pretty excited about the new versions. Doing a ladies/unisex model is a bit of a gamble, but I think the business case makes sense. All of the new designs are a bit of a departure from most of the other subs, in that we're starting to range a bit outside the usual Rolex/Tudor lexicon for inspiration. None of them resemble anything in Rolex/Tudor's past, but they're all pretty cool, with a good mix of the familiar and the new.

Looking forward to the big reveal later this summer...


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

This is exciting news. I only wish my Wife and Daughter's loved watches as much as I do. I am sure with your vision to details these new pieces will be even more glorious then I can imagine.

We are watching a Legend grow and I look forward to what is in store for the watch world.



docvail said:


> Cheers.
> 
> I'm pretty excited about the new versions. Doing a ladies/unisex model is a bit of a gamble, but I think the business case makes sense. All of the new designs are a bit of a departure from most of the other subs, in that we're starting to range a bit outside the usual Rolex/Tudor lexicon for inspiration. None of them resemble anything in Rolex/Tudor's past, but they're all pretty cool, with a good mix of the familiar and the new.
> 
> Looking forward to the big reveal later this summer...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> This is exciting news. I only wish my Wife and Daughter's loved watches as much as I do. I am sure with your vision to details these new pieces will be even more glorious then I can imagine.
> 
> We are watching a Legend grow and I look forward to what is in store for the watch world.


Cheers.

The thinking, in a nutshell is: Female WIS + Male WIS who will like them for themselves + Male WIS who'll buy them for their wives/girlfriends/daughters + my wife, and her dip$hlt girlfriends + my mom, and maybe a few aunts = 100 pieces.

At least one of the retailers I've been talking to thinks there's pent-up/unmet demand for something like what we're planning, and the feedback from people who've seen the designs has been good so far (my wife likes them, Rusty's wife likes them, my marketing guy's wife likes them, 3 ladies from the ladies watches sub-forum like them, the ladies who work at the retailer's office likes them, etc).

I figure I can't be hurt too badly making 100 pieces in time for Christmas. Any that don't sell will be available for Valentine's, Mother's Day, Graduations, etc. If they go fast, I'll make more. If they don't, it at least gives me something better to say when women I know ask me why I don't make ladies watches.

"I made 100 of them, and they didn't move, so leave me alone," is more convincing then "I don't think there's a business case for them."


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

You just got the undivided attention of a lot of guys looking for presents six months before Christmas for their wives, significant others, etc.


----------



## RCar58 (Mar 27, 2018)

docvail said:


> Retailers cleaned me out of them. Talk to Watch Gauge, or Serious Watches, who I think is planning to do pre-orders, witnessing this madness unfold.


I tried that for the Scorpene, typo-gone before the page even loaded

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> You just got the undivided attention of a lot of guys looking for presents six months before Christmas for their wives, significant others, etc.


Let's hope so.

A few years back, I went looking for a "real" watch for my wife. Of course, to me, a "real watch" meant an automatic with decent bang-for-the-buck. There weren't many choices, and she didn't like any of them.

I started a thread in the ladies watches forum - https://www.watchuseek.com/f469/help-brutha-out-4706681.html, to get some feedback there.

My early concerns were that female WIS are a very small group, with desires which may be hard to fathom, non-WIS females may not "get" a $600 mechanical 40mm diver, and male WIS might want to set a budget for a wife/girlfriend watch closer to $300.

It didn't make sense to do a clean-slate design with a 300-500 piece MOQ, but carving 100 pieces out of the next NTH Subs production is a lower hurdle to get over. The response from the lady WIS has been good, the response from my friends' wives has been good, and I think the retailers will want to stock some.

How many of my male customers will come along and buy a $600 NTH Sub for their wives or girlfriends? I guess we'll see.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

You might see a fair bit of purchases from guys for their daughter/kid (if unisex means smaller mm and not specifically a female design), even if $600 is a bit much for a watch for a child (in hopes that one day they'd share their WIS interests). I'd prob be in for one, assuming I don't spend the funds on a diff NTH for myself (I missed out on the Blue Barracuda).

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> You might see a fair bit of purchases from guys for their daughter/kid (if unisex means smaller mm and not specifically a female design), even if $600 is a bit much for a watch for a child (in hopes that one day they'd share their WIS interests). I'd prob be in for one, assuming I don't spend the funds on a diff NTH for myself (I missed out on the Blue Barracuda).
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


They're not any smaller. They're 40mm. They're just unisex designs with the NTH Subs case, same specs, etc. That's what I mean by carving out 100 pieces of the next NTH Subs production.

I'm well aware of the widespread opinion I should make a smaller size. Those opinions are wrong.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

If you have the same case and same size, what's left to make the designs "unisex"? I hope the answer isn't "pink mother of pearl dial and diamond inlays"...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> If you have the same case and same size, what's left to make the designs "unisex"? I hope the answer isn't "pink mother of pearl dial and diamond inlays"...


It isn't.

I don't know how to describe them in words that won't simply tell you what the pictures eventually will, but the goal was to come up with designs which were less "Butch", but not exactly "girly".

We went for 10% more bling, 20% less hard edges...you get the idea.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Quartz. Most women seem to wear and like quartz. So that's Doc's secret edge. NTH subs in quartz and mother of pearl studded with zirconia.

Either that or gold or hot pink dials.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

If I take my wife of 32 years as an example of what women want in a Watch, definitely quartz because she has too much other stuff to do than wind a stupid watch, has to be able to see the dial even without her glasses, water and food resistant because she will get all kinds of food on it when cooking and then dunk the watch under the faucet to wash it off, a date function because she’s always asking me what day it is (it’s Tuesday!, the 18th!), it has to be metal (I don’t like metal it gets too hot) ok plastic (it has to go with all my outfits) gold (I like silver) arabic numbers ( I like the stick numbers, those are Roman numerals honey), diver inspired ( I don’t go diving, I said inspired honey it means a design concept, but I don’t go diving, ok forget diver inspired), a second hand ( I don’t need a second hand and I cannot see the time without my glasses anyway, have you seen my glasses?, what day is it again?

Where’s the watch I bought you?

Oh you know I hate wearing things on my wrist besides you always have one, one of many, when are you going to sell some of your stupid watches? You never go diving anyway. They all look alike, why do you need so many watches?


And that’s what a woman wants in a Watch. 





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Al Faromeo (Sep 23, 2016)

Hmmm. 
So many women. So many preferences... Oldest daughter (Sporty Spice) is currently saving up for a post 2004/pre 2012 Air King; youngest one (Baby Spice) is looking at second hand Cartier Tank. While they are doing that, they borrow mine.

For dress/office, my daughters (early 30ies) are looking at smallish (36 mm or a bit less but still relatively substantial for a ladies' watch), quartz or mechanical, no date, classical design (whatever that may mean, but certainly not bling); for leisure (but occasionally also for the office) they slightly prefer mechanical, anything from 36 - 42 mm, steel or titanium, auto with a substantial power reserve, especially if it has a date complication.

They rummage though my drawers looking for watches they'd like to '_borrow for a couple of weeks_' - that means that I've had to separate myself from my Tissot chronograph (decently classical), from the Breitling Emergency I (butch), from my a-13a (civilised Italian machismo). 
The Zenith Pacific which is a small watch by today's standards is also a favorite in the classical, dress category. My wife's Constellation much less so as it seen by the daughters as much less gender-neutral. The wife prefers not to steal my watches which is something I appreciate and love in the old girl.

When the daughters borrow my watches, I will hunt 'em down and I seek 'em out and I get my own back. Always.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

docvail said:


> Cheers.
> 
> The thinking, in a nutshell is: Female WIS + Male WIS who will like them for themselves + Male WIS who'll buy them for their wives/girlfriends/daughters + my wife, and her dip$hlt girlfriends + my mom, and maybe a few aunts = 100 pieces.
> 
> ...


I'll buy 2, one for my wife and one for my dip$hit girlfriend.:roll:


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> It isn't.
> 
> I don't know how to describe them in words that won't simply tell you what the pictures eventually will, but the goal was to come up with designs which were less "Butch", but not exactly "girly".
> 
> We went for 10% more bling, 20% less hard edges...you get the idea.


I'm intrigued, if nothing else I want to see what you think speaks to women, lol. My guess is you'll sell em no prob, but mostly to dudes that like the design. My wife is not so enthusiastic about my watch collecting and I can't imagine the mad dog stare I'd get if I tried to buy her one as a present.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> It isn't.
> 
> I don't know how to describe them in words that won't simply tell you what the pictures eventually will, but the goal was to come up with designs which were less "Butch", but not exactly "girly".
> 
> We went for 10% more bling, 20% less hard edges...you get the idea.


They...

They should have sent a poet

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tanjecterly said:


> Quartz. Most women seem to wear and like quartz. So that's Doc's secret edge. NTH subs in quartz and mother of pearl studded with zirconia.
> 
> Either that or gold or hot pink dials.





Rhorya said:


> If I take my wife of 32 years as an example of what women want in a Watch, definitely quartz because she has too much other stuff to do than wind a stupid watch, has to be able to see the dial even without her glasses, water and food resistant because she will get all kinds of food on it when cooking and then dunk the watch under the faucet to wash it off, a date function because she's always asking me what day it is (it's Tuesday!, the 18th!), it has to be metal (I don't like metal it gets too hot) ok plastic (it has to go with all my outfits) gold (I like silver) arabic numbers ( I like the stick numbers, those are Roman numerals honey), diver inspired ( I don't go diving, I said inspired honey it means a design concept, but I don't go diving, ok forget diver inspired), a second hand ( I don't need a second hand and I cannot see the time without my glasses anyway, have you seen my glasses?, what day is it again?
> 
> Where's the watch I bought you?
> 
> ...





Al Faromeo said:


> Hmmm.
> So many women. So many preferences... Oldest daughter (Sporty Spice) is currently saving up for a post 2004/pre 2012 Air King; youngest one (Baby Spice) is looking at second hand Cartier Tank. While they are doing that, they borrow mine.
> 
> For dress/office, my daughters (early 30ies) are looking at smallish (36 mm or a bit less but still relatively substantial for a ladies' watch), quartz or mechanical, no date, classical design (whatever that may mean, but certainly not bling); for leisure (but occasionally also for the office) they slightly prefer mechanical, anything from 36 - 42 mm, steel or titanium, auto with a substantial power reserve, especially if it has a date complication.
> ...





skunkworks said:


> I'm intrigued, if nothing else I want to see what you think speaks to women, lol. My guess is you'll sell em no prob, but mostly to dudes that like the design. My wife is not so enthusiastic about my watch collecting and I can't imagine the mad dog stare I'd get if I tried to buy her one as a present.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


1. They're not quartz.

2. They're not overly blingy or girly. We made them less butch in subtle ways.

3. If you're all just guessing, for the fun of it, be my guests, and guess away. If you're trying to make suggestions about what I should do, you can stop, because I've already done it.

4. I take CALCULATED risks. That means I do research to find as much information as I can, and I take as much time as I need to when considering it all before making a big decision. Trust me, no one here is going to offer up the Rosetta Stone of ladies watch designs.

5. I took a decent-sized sampling of opinions from female WIS and non-WIS, and focused on the intersection between their opinions/tastes and what I could reasonably justify producing. My confidence is bolstered by the positive reactions from both groups.

If you're all curious enough, go check out that thread - https://www.watchuseek.com/f469/help-brutha-out-4706681.html.

You'll get some sense for the direction we went, why, and why it makes sense.

You'll also get some sense for why I always did okay with the ladies, in my day, back when the ladies could have me. Apparently they like it when you ASK them what they want, instead of TELLING them what they're getting.

Go figure.


----------



## jatherly (Oct 7, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Doc throwing down, love it!!


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

So I am on the verge of purchasing my first NTH watch. I have finally narrowed it down to the Devil Ray, but which color? I am torn between the black or the turquoise. Or the white. Maybe the orange. Dammit! The choice is so hard. I am guessing Doc's answer would be "why not all 4?". For those who own multiple colors, I have a few questions.

For the white one, it looks in some pictures to be a more sunbursty silver, but I know pictures can lie. What is this color REALLY like?

For the other colors, how much does the gray contrast with the rest of the dial color? And how noticeable is the multicolored chapter ring? Is it only certain angles or is it prevalent from most angles?

And lastly, is the turquoise as awesome as I want it to be?

I know style and colors are subjective, but I am really struggling here. With most watches I strongly prefer one color over the others, but that is not the case at all here. 

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

When in doubt always go black. I have the black dial Devil Ray and I like the classic dressy look it has. The black dial doesn't draw a lot of flashy color attention to itself. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> So I am on the verge of purchasing my first NTH watch. I have finally narrowed it down to the Devil Ray, but which color? I am torn between the black or the turquoise. Or the white. Maybe the orange. Dammit! The choice is so hard. I am guessing Doc's answer would be "why not all 4?". For those who own multiple colors, I have a few questions.
> 
> For the white one, it looks in some pictures to be a more sunbursty silver, but I know pictures can lie. What is this color REALLY like?
> 
> ...


Don't forget to consider the Watch Wonderland exclusive. Not only is it totally hot but it's a bargain as well...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> So I am on the verge of purchasing my first NTH watch. I have finally narrowed it down to the Devil Ray, but which color? I am torn between the black or the turquoise. Or the white. Maybe the orange. Dammit! The choice is so hard. I am guessing Doc's answer would be "why not all 4?". For those who own multiple colors, I have a few questions.
> 
> For the white one, it looks in some pictures to be a more sunbursty silver, but I know pictures can lie. What is this color REALLY like?
> 
> ...


It's a sunbursty silver. I call things "white" because the last time I used "silver" as a color, customs officials in other countries started holding all our shipments to our customers, thinking we had precious metal content, but didn't disclose it on the import documents. That wasn't fun to deal with.

There's one - ONE - black piece left, with date, and only 3 of the "whilver", so...actually, stock is low on all of them. Buy whichever floats your boat.

A lot of the pics online are of prototypes, and the depth gauge is less obvious, especially seen from the front. The production pieces have a slightly different crystal profile, which makes the depth gauge more visible, especially from front-on.

Is it "obvious"? I'm guessing it's maybe 1mm wide, maybe less. It's not that "in yer face". Most people aren't looking at your watch anyway.

I assume you're asking about the contrast of the gray minute track with the dial. It's "enough" for all the colorways, but least obvious on the black dial, which isn't exactly "black", as in "devoid of all color". We had to lighten it up slightly to see the sunray texture of the dial, so it's more like a dark charcoal gray. In some lighting conditions, the contrast is greater, in others, less.

Same photographer on these two shots. Likely the same camera. Notice the difference in contrast:

















The turquoise is awesome. As awesome as you want it to be? No idea. I try to do my part to curb everyone's enthusiasm just this side of creating unrealistic expectations, which always lead to disappointment.

Let's say it's level 8 awesome, with a couple judges giving it a 10.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Rhorya said:


> When in doubt always go black.


If your thoughts can't deliver, choose whilver.

That's the correct choice of dial color, because it rhymes, and poetry = truth.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Don't forget to consider the Watch Wonderland exclusive. Not only is it totally hot but it's a bargain as well...


Or the Watch Gauge LE.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Was checking out the European NTH AD and I don't know if it's the strength of the dollar or if their pricing is just low, but man... the prices without VAT are nuts. Fighting a losing battle not to buy another Devil Ray...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> If your thoughts can't deliver, choose whilver.
> 
> That's the correct choice of dial color, because it rhymes, and poetry = truth.


Sorry I just can't say the word "whilver" in my head without evoking Mister Ed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## I_am_Ned (Dec 21, 2017)

I'm trying to like other watches. Not very good at it.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> They're not any smaller. They're 40mm. They're just unisex designs with the NTH Subs case, same specs, etc. That's what I mean by carving out 100 pieces of the next NTH Subs production.
> 
> I'm well aware of the widespread opinion I should make a smaller size. Those opinions are wrong.


Ah, I misunderstood what you meant. I agree - smaller sizes I don't think are as popular/well selling as people think. I had spoken with someone else in the micro industry not too long ago about that and they said the same. I'm kinda intrigued to see them and what unisex means in this context.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Dub Rubb said:


> And lastly, is the turquoise as awesome as I want it to be?


I'll let you know soon enough if mine ships in the next day or so. I need it to be delivered by Saturday before I leave on my business trip (and had a couple issues in the past with a delay between order and shipping, but usually it's good).


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Unisex to me means bezel-less. I'm already thinking bezel-less Blueracuda and bezel-less Root Beer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Ah, I misunderstood what you meant. I agree - smaller sizes I don't think are as popular/well selling as people think. I had spoken with someone else in the micro industry not too long ago about that and they said the same. I'm kinda intrigued to see them and what unisex means in this context.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Not trying to say I started "the" trend, but...

When we launched the NTH Subs two years ago, there was a lot of hype around them. "OMG! A 40mm diver! And it's so thin!"

In the last two years, everyone's making 40mm divers, or harping on thinness (often mis-stating the dimensions by leaving out crystal and caseback, the posers). Everyone's doing the "vintage-sized" thing, and some are starting to try to out-do the others, by going smaller, "40mm? Pfffft! Try 38mm!"

Everyone's doing lumed crown engravings now, too (and steel bezel inserts, while I'm ticking off the ways people mirror what I'm doing), but that's a separate rant, for a different day. Don't get me started...

The thing is, although there is a very vocal contingent of online WIS who pine for smaller sizes, they're vastly outnumbered by everyone else.

And I don't want to imply that guys with thinner wrists are more likely to be all hat, no cattle, but I have seen a correlation between guys with smaller frames being a bit more picky, more stingy with their money, etc. Fat guys with big old wrists don't hold onto their wallets as tightly, or "sweat the small stuff" nearly as much.

For every guy who rails against a 40mm Sub, I've got four others who rail at me for not making a 44mm version (true story, and I ain't doing that either, so nobody get excited - looking at you, ChiefWahoo...).

Meanwhile, Footie's wife wears a 44mm Spectre. My wife and Rusty's wife will rock a 40mm Sub or Antilles. I have female customers who bought the 42mm Orthos and Phantom. And I have thin-wristed friends trying to get me to sell them my ~43mm SBDC and my ~44mm Samurai.

DevilRay? Party of 43? Those pics I posted earlier were from the wife of one of the guys who bought one. She wears it as often as he does.

People. C'mon. Don't tell me I "need" to make a smaller watch, when I'm doing just fine NOT making smaller watches, and I don't see people pushing the latest 38mm diver to the top of the WUS/F71 favorites list.

I can't keep the 40mm NTH Subs in stock. I should kill myself trying to please the smaller, pickier segment of the market trying to out-do the last guy making a 38mm? Really? Naaaahhhh, think I'll pass. Let some other guy carve out a niche for himself making 38mm divers and 32mm dress watches.

I'm reasonably sure there are at least 100 people out there who are either ladies willing to rock a 40mm, or guys secure enough in their manhood to wear something less toolish and not worry about what anyone else thinks.

Or, possibly, I'm way off the reservation on this one, "out there, flapping", as my step-father likes to say.

We'll know in 6 months.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> 1. They're not quartz.
> 
> 2. They're not overly blingy or girly. We made them less butch in subtle ways.
> 
> ...


I was like 'man I ain't reading that'.... But then I did.... and it was a pretty good read. Even more intrigued.

I'm picturing polished steel bezels with a pale blue dial variant and a 2nd dial variant of either maroon, grape or salmon. (Just guesses for fun). The read made me feel like the ladies needed it to be 36-38, but who knows.

Good luck with it! I like the fresh idea.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

What you need* to do - is make a 42mm NTH sub.

*well, not need to at all... more I want you to 

:-d


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> It's a sunbursty silver. I call things "white" because the last time I used "silver" as a color, customs officials in other countries started holding all our shipments to our customers, thinking we had precious metal content, but didn't disclose it on the import documents. That wasn't fun to deal with.
> 
> There's one - ONE - black piece left, with date, and only 3 of the "whilver", so...actually, stock is low on all of them. Buy whichever floats your boat.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the pics and more detailed info on the color schemes. I ended up going with the black no date version (which I had to get from watch gauge, one of the last 2!). I will admit that your participation in this forum and giving us a window into the micro brand creation process is a HUGE part of why I purchased this watch. The other HUGE part is that the watch is just effing awesome! Thanks for all you contribute around here, and I am proud to have purchased an NTH as my first micro brand watch.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You'll also get some sense for why I always did okay with the ladies, in my day, back when the ladies could have me. Apparently they like it when you ASK them what they want, instead of TELLING them what they're getting.
> 
> Go figure.


i knew there was something l liked about this guy!...welcome to the brotherhood


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



The Watcher said:


> i knew there was something l liked about this guy!...welcome to the brotherhood
> 
> View attachment 13234931


NOW you're doing it right!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



skunkworks said:


> I was like 'man I ain't reading that'.... But then I did....


This is my typical reaction to most all of Doc's Walls of Text...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> This is my typical reaction to most all of Doc's Walls of Text...


NOW you're doing it right!


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I really like my turquoise DR. Unfortunately I received my Nazario a few days after the DR and the Naz is getting 95% of my wrist time. I’m so into this watch I have thought about creating a specific thread for it but seeing how there were only 25 made I don’t know if it is warranted. 

Doc I think you’re doing pretty solid on your designs and execution. Just keep on doing what you’re doing.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Not trying to say I started "the" trend, but...
> 
> When we launched the NTH Subs two years ago, there was a lot of hype around them. "OMG! A 40mm diver! And it's so thin!"
> 
> ...


I'm recalling the "sweet spot" thread - https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4246090&share_fid=13788&share_type=t. I'm wondering if you should send him a Sub and see what he thinks. 

Seriously tho, the NTH Sub case is easily my favorite watch case - I couldn't think of a single "improvement" to it that wasn't some arbitrary cosmetic thing (titanium, zaratsu polish, whatever the flavor of the week is). The design is stellar.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> I really like my turquoise DR. Unfortunately I received my Nazario a few days after the DR and the Naz is getting 95% of my wrist time. I'm so into this watch I have thought about creating a specific thread for it but seeing how there were only 25 made I don't know if it is warranted.
> 
> Doc I think you're doing pretty solid on your designs and execution. Just keep on doing what you're doing.


Cheers.

I'm not exactly sure which of the fanmen thought up the idea to do a Zerograph homage, but it may have been Jelliottz, originally.

I think it was my idea to do the waffle dial on that one. It was definitely my idea to beat up Aaron (synaptyx) repeatedly until the bezel looked "right".

I shouldn't let the cat out of the bag this soon, but John from Watch Gauge wanted to do a follow-up to the Nazario, and we're doing one, which will also be a WG-exclusive.

I don't want to say you're going to literally $hlt a brick when you see it, but if you happen to own a kilt, you may want to make sure you're wearing it the day it's revealed.

Actually, everyone here should buy a kilt, just because, but definitely wear them the day we announce the next batch of Subs. I don't want to be responsible for the soiled shorts which are sure to follow if this warning goes unheeded.



Disneydave said:


> I'm recalling the "sweet spot" thread - https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4246090&share_fid=13788&share_type=t. I'm wondering if you should send him a Sub and see what he thinks.
> 
> Seriously tho, the NTH Sub case is easily my favorite watch case - I couldn't think of a single "improvement" to it that wasn't some arbitrary cosmetic thing (titanium, zaratsu polish, whatever the flavor of the week is). The design is stellar.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


OMG. I remember that thread.

There have been a lot - I mean, A LOT - of bizarre, "I can't look at this" threads over the years, but that's the one that literally made me turn away before I could finish reading the OP.

I'm not homophobic, but that gave me a very strong sense of having wandered into the wrong bar. What's with the dub-step, all the shirtless dudes dancing, and the whistles?










Seriously, tho, the fanmen had a lot of input into that case design, and as much as I'd love to hog all the credit, most of it belongs to Rusty. I never drew any of that case, and mostly just told him which of the fanmen to listen to and which to ignore. He had that case 90% done before anyone saw it, much less had a chance to say anything about it.

Now, the DevilRay? That case is all mine. I told Rusty to go poach a possum, and let the big dog hump a few legs.

I think you're picking up what I'm putting down, am I right?


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Dub Rubb said:


> So I am on the verge of purchasing my first NTH watch. I have finally narrowed it down to the Devil Ray, but which color? I am torn between the black or the turquoise. Or the white. Maybe the orange. Dammit! The choice is so hard. I am guessing Doc's answer would be "why not all 4?". For those who own multiple colors, I have a few questions.
> 
> For the white one, it looks in some pictures to be a more sunbursty silver, but I know pictures can lie. What is this color REALLY like?
> 
> ...


The turqouise is absolutely as awesome as you imagine.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Very curious, what „unisex" means in the context of a 40mm/20mmL, superslim Diver case with blue/grey/Black/Brown bezels. Unless you'd go 38mm (what I understand you won't).

Only thing I always wondered was, how thin you could go by omitting 100m of WR. I read somewhere in this thread(?) how you scratched away every inch of a mm of the case without compromising on the 300m rating.

Or is the lesser wr no more product of the metal thickness, but of the gaskets in this case? Somewhere the movement and the availability of the pinion (? That thin piece of metal where the hands are attached to) must be the limit of reducing thickness, I know.

If the thickness is separating „unisex" from „manly man watch" my guess would be a 9.8mm thick sub with a tapering bracelet at 200 wr. Thus you wouldn't have to change the mayor components (bezel, maybe crystal - unless part of the -100m derived from scratching away layers of crystal -, caseback.) but the case and the bracelet. The latter could be otherwise useful for established customers to get the „femininity" on their existing pieces .

But what do I know - nothing.

You said we are allowed to guess. I'm just guessing. Not suggesting .

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Nikita70 said:


> I really like my turquoise DR. Unfortunately I received my Nazario a few days after the DR and the Naz is getting 95% of my wrist time. I'm so into this watch I have thought about creating a specific thread for it but seeing how there were only 25 made I don't know if it is warranted.
> 
> Doc I think you're doing pretty solid on your designs and execution. Just keep on doing what you're doing.


I say start a thread about the Naz, it will give me an excuse to post photos to let everyone know what they missed out on.

Better yet, if you don't, I will.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Nikita70 said:


> I really like my turquoise DR. Unfortunately I received my Nazario a few days after the DR and the Naz is getting 95% of my wrist time. I'm so into this watch I have thought about creating a specific thread for it...


Do it!


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Dub Rubb said:


> So I am on the verge of purchasing my first NTH watch. I have finally narrowed it down to the Devil Ray, but which color? I am torn between the black or the turquoise. Or the white. Maybe the orange. Dammit! The choice is so hard. I am guessing Doc's answer would be "why not all 4?". For those who own multiple colors, I have a few questions.
> 
> For the white one, it looks in some pictures to be a more sunbursty silver, but I know pictures can lie. What is this color REALLY like?
> 
> ...


Not to make it harder, but there's the DevilFox Watch Wonderland exclusive too. The blue bezel insert with the breathing timer sold me. Just saying... 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> I don't want to say you're going to literally $hlt a brick when you see it, but if you happen to own a kilt, you may want to make sure you're wearing it the day it's revealed.
> 
> Actually, everyone here should buy a kilt, just because, but definitely wear them the day we announce the next batch of Subs. I don't want to be responsible for the soiled shorts which are sure to follow if this warning goes unheeded.


Don't worry, kilts have gone tacticool










(Literally just spent an evening grilling burgers at my kids' swim meet with a dude wearing one of these and a Hawaiian shirt.)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Very curious, what „unisex" means in the context of a 40mm/20mmL, superslim Diver case with blue/grey/Black/Brown bezels. Unless you'd go 38mm (what I understand you won't).
> 
> Only thing I always wondered was, how thin you could go by omitting 100m of WR. I read somewhere in this thread(?) how you scratched away every inch of a mm of the case without compromising on the 300m rating.
> 
> ...


We didn't go there.

But if we did - in theory, thickness could be shaved by dropping down in WR, because you wouldn't need crystal and caseback to be as thick.

In practice, I can easily imagine my factory telling me to shut up and stop making them nuts trying to be the thin case on the block.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> Don't worry, kilts have gone tacticool
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please say his name was Ricardo. Please say his name was Ricardo...

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Please say his name was Ricardo. Please say his name was Ricardo...
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


His name is Steve. He drives a small pick up truck. And the creepy thing is he has no kids.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

These are the leg wear of choice at burning man.


JakeJD said:


> Don't worry, kilts have gone tacticool
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Please say his name was Ricardo. Please say his name was Ricardo...
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Neither Ricardo nor Steve, but Irish, not Scottish, so that was a 1 point deduction. He was actually an awesome guy and had a definite Captain Ron vibe.


----------



## Sillygoose (Mar 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

A female chiming in with my DevilRay.










Reading some of the guesses of what a unisex watch entails frustrates me a bit because for some reason, men seem to think that women want bling and quartz. While it may potentially be the case for some, I don't think most female WIS are into that at all.

Thanks to Doc for surveying the targeted audience and creating something that illustrates your genuine interest and attention to our comments. The unisex design looks great and I can't wait to see the public's reaction when it's released!

- Tappy Talkied


----------



## K-Kirk (May 29, 2017)

Any chance we see a Bronze version of the subs coming soon???


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

^^^Cough...spit.....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

K-Kirk said:


> Any chance we see a Bronze version of the subs coming soon???


Zero chance soon.

Slight chance, someday, maybe.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Thumbs up for bronze subs.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Zero chance soon.
> 
> Slight chance, someday, maybe.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Too busy working on the new unobtanium subs I guess.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I'd also take Subobtaniums.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Seriously, tho, the fanmen had a lot of input into that case design, and as much as I'd love to hog all the credit, most of it belongs to Rusty. I never drew any of that case, and mostly just told him which of the fanmen to listen to and which to ignore. He had that case 90% done before anyone saw it, much less had a chance to say anything about it.
> 
> Now, the DevilRay? That case is all mine. I told Rusty to go poach a possum, and let the big dog hump a few legs.
> 
> I think you're picking up what I'm putting down, am I right?


I only suggest changes when I think they're needed or would look cool.... like lumed crowns.

Good job on the DevilRay case, Doc. The possum was delicious - about like armadillo. And yes, it DID taste like chicken.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Ratfacedgit said:


> I say start a thread about the Naz, it will give me an excuse to post photos to let everyone know what they missed out on.
> 
> Better yet, if you don't, I will.


Ok, you talked me into it. Probably my longest post ever lol.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> They're not any smaller. They're 40mm. They're just unisex designs with the NTH Subs case, same specs, etc. That's what I mean by carving out 100 pieces of the next NTH Subs production.
> 
> I'm well aware of the widespread opinion I should make a smaller size. Those opinions are wrong.


Nobody needs smaller than a 40mm diver. I've never understood the appeal of 38mm divers like the Chris Ward Trident C60. Too little case width with too much height required for them to hit 60ATM makes a watch that looks weird. The 43mm is much better proportioned, even if it's too big for me. They absolutely nailed it on the C65 though. Easily their best diver yet.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Nobody needs smaller than a 40mm diver. I've never understood the appeal of 38mm divers like the Chris Ward Trident C60. Too little case width with too much height required for them to hit 60ATM makes a watch that looks weird. The 43mm is much better proportioned, even if it's too big for me. They absolutely nailed it on the C65 though. Easily their best diver yet.


Its not really hard to understand that smaller wrists need smaller watches to achieve the same proportions/symmetrie. I agree that thick and small makes them look worse though.

I have my first NTH sub incoming. The Seiko Monster was/is my upper limit. Based on the same l2l the Sub should fit as well. Then again someone with bigger (better shaped) wrists will have a nicer fit. That's why I am happy when the big companies provide the same model in different sizes. I understand it is difficult for micros to handle this that way and I am not demanding it therefore.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I have a 7"-7.25" wrist, which I think is very close to, if not precisely average.

I can comfortably pull off lug-lengths up to about 51mm-52mm before the lugs are sticking out past the point where the top of my wrist becomes the sides of my wrist.

Most diameters are ~82%-88% of lug-length, which means my max diameter is probably ~45mm.

However, my personal tastes, and what I find comfortable, have pushed the upper end of my preferred range down to about 43mm (DevilRay), or 44mm, max, depending on design. Generally, I like 40-42, and the DR suits me because of the short lug length, smaller bezel/dial diameter, and contoured case bottom.

On the lower end, it's obviously a different thought process. I've owned and worn 38mm watches, but they very often look and feel too small on my wrist, and since my vision started to get less than perfect, the smaller faces are hard to read.

I'm not saying I only think about myself and what I like, or the average wrist size when I design, but I do try to take into account the math involved and what I see as widespread preferences among the target customer.

If I go below 38 or above 44, then I'd be designing for smaller or larger wrists, at the exclusion of one or the other.

If I stay in the meat of that range, 40-42, then I'm not just designing for the average, but including a good chunk of both the smaller and larger. 

I can get people with both small and large wrists to wear a 40mm diver. Some within both groups squawk, but overall, it seems like I can get more big guys to come down to 40 than smaller guys to come up to 42.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure there's no getting big guys down to 38 or 39. They draw the line at 40, just like smaller guys might draw the line at 42, and MAYBE I can get them to accept that something like the DevilRay is still do-able due to short lug lengths.

It seems like short lug lengths can get smaller guys to wear bigger, but longer lug lengths don't get bigger guys to wear smaller. Just my perception/observation.

Smaller watches with higher WR will generally seem chunkier, because they are, but the physics say that as the diameter shrinks, the crystal and caseback thickness can also shrink, and still maintain the same WR level. It may not be a linear relationship, though, so you get some smaller watches which wear pretty chunky.

I always liked the CW Trident, but, personally, I think both the 38 and the 43 are "wrong". One's too small, the other is just a tad too large. It's like they made two different watches, one for smaller than average wrists, and one for larger than average, and didn't really make anything for the bulk of people close to average.

I think it's better to pick one size, and go with it. If they made it 40 or 42, I wonder if they wouldn't sell more of them, or if they wouldn't have been better off with 40 and 42 as the two size options, which I think would please more people than 38 and 43 as choices.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Maybe I’m being too shallow but I really don’t like the C. Ward logo. The watches look ok but the logo ruins it for me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> Maybe I'm being too shallow but I really don't like the C. Ward logo. The watches look ok but the logo ruins it for me.


Which one?

I hated the first one (or maybe it was just the first one I saw), with the big C.

I actually liked the next one, which most people hated, the ChrWARD, or whatever it was.

I didn't know what to make of the sans-serif logo at 9.

The new English/Swiss flag logo looks alright, and makes sense - English company, Swiss made - but I haven't seen an iteration that elegantly combines the flags with any text.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Nikita70 said:


> Maybe I'm being too shallow but I really don't like the C. Ward logo. The watches look ok but the logo ruins it for me.


You need to specify which logo. BURN (on CW, not Nikita)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> Which one?
> 
> I hated the first one (or maybe it was just the first one I saw), with the big C.
> 
> ...


Damn you for beating me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Sillygoose said:


> A female chiming in with my DevilRay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My genius is in admitting I don't know...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Seikogi said:


> Its not really hard to understand that smaller wrists need smaller watches to achieve the same proportions/symmetrie. I agree that thick and small makes them look worse though.
> 
> I have my first NTH sub incoming. The Seiko Monster was/is my upper limit. Based on the same l2l the Sub should fit as well. Then again someone with bigger (better shaped) wrists will have a nicer fit. That's why I am happy when the big companies provide the same model in different sizes. I understand it is difficult for micros to handle this that way and I am not demanding it therefore.


My wrist measures around the 7.25 mark and is somewhat flatter than it is round. Here's my Gen 1 Monster.










My Oberon










And the DevilRay prototype










All pics are taken at essentially the same distance from the camera so should be a pretty accurate representation of how they wear.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> My wrist measures around the 7.25 mark and is somewhat flatter than it is round. Here's my Gen 1 Monster.
> 
> My Oberon
> 
> ...


Thank you for the comparison photos. I think I will be able to pull off the modern Näcken. My wrist is flat which should help.

I also had an SKX013 and while the l2l and diameter were smaller, its height made it look ouf proportion.

The case shape is really well done on the sub. I think comparable to the older Rolex Subs and I tried one of those a few months ago.

My wrist size is 6-ish and expands when in hot weather.

Some comparison shots:

42? Havanna Nighthawk








the Monster








5 digit? sub








unfortunately the distance is not the same on all photos


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Seikogi said:


> Thank you for the comparison photos. I think I will be able to pull off the modern Näcken. My wrist is flat which should help.
> 
> I also had an SKX013 and while the l2l and diameter were smaller, its height made it look ouf proportion.
> 
> ...


Yep. You'll enjoy the Nacken.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> Its not really hard to understand that smaller wrists need smaller watches to achieve the same proportions/symmetrie. I agree that thick and small makes them look worse though.
> 
> I have my first NTH sub incoming. The Seiko Monster was/is my upper limit. Based on the same l2l the Sub should fit as well. Then again someone with bigger (better shaped) wrists will have a nicer fit. That's why I am happy when the big companies provide the same model in different sizes. I understand it is difficult for micros to handle this that way and I am not demanding it therefore.


I have tiny wrists, and my Nacken fit me fine. My max is around 48mm L2L, and it's within that limit. Thin watches like that are also easier to pull off on a small wrist than much thicker but otherwise comparably sized watches, like my Evant Tropic. That watch's nearly 14mm case height made it look like I had a soup can on my wrist.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I always liked the CW Trident, but, personally, I think both the 38 and the 43 are "wrong". One's too small, the other is just a tad too large. It's like they made two different watches, one for smaller than average wrists, and one for larger than average, and didn't really make anything for the bulk of people close to average.
> 
> I think it's better to pick one size, and go with it. If they made it 40 or 42, I wonder if they wouldn't sell more of them, or if they wouldn't have been better off with 40 and 42 as the two size options, which I think would please more people than 38 and 43 as choices.


Agreed 100%. This is probably why the new C65 is 41mm, it splits the difference between porridge that's too cold, and porridge that's too hot, and should please just about everyone. At the very least, I think they would be smart to offer the C60 in 40 and 43mm, similar to what Oris does with the Aquis. I have to imagine that the demand for 38mm divers is pretty small.


----------



## K-Kirk (May 29, 2017)

The DR fits great...yes on paper may seem large but in person it's sits well on the wrist without feeling chunky in any way.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I just measured all the watches in my box (14). Smallest is 38mm, largest is just under 43. I have a smidgen less than a 7" wrist, call it 6.9. Fit seems to be more about shape and lug-to-lug than overall size. Proportion also has a lot to do with the feeling of comfort. All my smaller watches are really thin. My larger watches have well designed cases, which make them more "wearable" for me. Point being: design has as much to do with fit (if not more) as size, IMHO.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Which one?
> 
> I hated the first one (or maybe it was just the first one I saw), with the big C.
> 
> ...


The ChrWard. Just not a fan. YMMV. On a brighter note, love your NTH logo. Just saying.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Nikita70 said:


> The ChrWard. Just not a fan. YMMV. On a brighter note, love your NTH logo. Just saying.


Chris Ward logo (current sans font) is just not my cup of tea. Preferred the one right before it.

NTH logo is good.

But I miss the dog...


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

Move along. Nothing to see here. Wasn't a duplicate post. Nope. Not at all...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The dial size does make a difference on how "big" a watch wears. For instance, the CW C65 and the NTH Subs. Okay, cw is 41mm, subs are 40. Almost the same. Almost the same lug to lug too. But the dial diameter on a sub is much smaller*, so the sub wears and looks like a much smaller watch, relatively.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

These subs are perfect size


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> I just measured all the watches in my box (14). Smallest is 38mm, largest is just under 43. I have a smidgen less than a 7" wrist, call it 6.9. Fit seems to be more about shape and lug-to-lug than overall size. Proportion also has a lot to do with the feeling of comfort. All my smaller watches are really thin. My larger watches have well designed cases, which make them more "wearable" for me. Point being: design has as much to do with fit (if not more) as size, IMHO.


So true. 
I have 6 1/4" wrist and have found that divers generally wears better than military/pilots watches because they often has shorter l2l relative to case diameter. But design and thickness also comes into play.
My best fitting watch is actually the Glycine combat sub 42mm. It fits slightly better than my Näcken, and both actually fits better than the 38mm Hamilton Khaki Mechanical.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## DrGonzo (Aug 29, 2014)

docvail said:


> On a serious note -
> 
> I didn't realize Oris made a model using tungsten. Glad to hear it's served you well.
> 
> ...


For reference, what the tungsten bezel looks like after a few years of regular use, and a fair bit of abuse, at work. I knew even less about watches when I bought it and had no idea if it would hold up.









Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

That lume gets me everytime. b-)









And the subs are the best fitting divers for me that I have owned.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> These subs are perfect size


That case really is a bullseye. I used to wonder why Doc recycled it so much, but it would be hard to improve! I'd love to see the same case with PCG's, boo ya! I'd also love to find Scarlett Johansen with a bag of money on my doorstep but that shiz will never happen either.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> So true.
> I have 6 1/4" wrist and have found that divers generally wears better than military/pilots watches because they often has shorter l2l relative to case diameter. But design and thickness also comes into play.
> My best fitting watch is actually the Glycine combat sub 42mm. It fits slightly better than my Näcken, and both actually fits better than the 38mm Hamilton Khaki Mechanical.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


The Glycines are thinner, because they've only got 200m WR, and the crystal is flat, not domed.

I'm not knocking them, at all, because even with "only" 200m WR, they're still quite thin, compared to other divers with the 2824-2, which is thicker than the 9015.

My hat's off to Glycine for making it so thin. I mean that sincerely. It's so thin that I've wondered if it's really 200m WR, because of how thick I know the movement is. I'm not suggesting it isn't, I'm saying, knowing what I went through to get the NTH Subs as thin as they are, shaving every sliver I could out of the case, I think someone had to put some hours into the Glycine's case design. Whoever that was, wherever they are, they're a comrade in spirit with this guy right here.

It also had lugs that curve downward nicely, which also helps them wear really well.

I owned one, and liked it, mostly. I wasn't a fan of how thin and stiff the bezel was (or the two-ply crystal protector, but that's a different story). It was hard to turn (but, hey, thin!). The lume on mine was really meh (small lume plots on my model), and the finishing was just okay, even for the price. I thought it was better on my Seiko SKX, which was 1/3 as much.

I vaguely recall really liking the bracelet, I think.


----------



## Cheddar (May 2, 2018)

Hey Doc,

Enjoy reading your thoughts here and am listening to the Hour Time podcasts you're on. Curious if you have any thoughts on the impact of this morning's Supreme Court decision (states can require entities doing virtual business in their state to collect sales tax) on the watch industry as a whole and on micro-brands in particular? The South Dakota statute at issue requires collection of sales tax if you conduct 200 transactions or $100,000 worth of biz in the state annually, so I would imagine not too many micro-brands would fall under that, but other states may set lower thresholds (which may or may not ultimately be permitted, depending on how low the thresholds courts ultimately decide constitute a substantial nexus with the state, or if Congress ever steps in).

Anyway, curious if this has been a topic of discussion among micro-brands and if there are plans for smaller merchants moving forward with regard to this issue and how it may impact the industry.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Cheddar said:


> Hey Doc,
> 
> Enjoy reading your thoughts here and am listening to the Hour Time podcasts you're on. Curious if you have any thoughts on the impact of this morning's Supreme Court decision (states can require entities doing virtual business in their state to collect sales tax) on the watch industry as a whole and on micro-brands in particular? The South Dakota statute at issue requires collection of sales tax if you conduct 200 transactions or $100,000 worth of biz in the state annually, so I would imagine not too many micro-brands would fall under that, but other states may set lower thresholds (which may or may not ultimately be permitted, depending on how low the thresholds courts ultimately decide constitute a substantial nexus with the state, or if Congress ever steps in).
> 
> Anyway, curious if this has been a topic of discussion among micro-brands and if there are plans for smaller merchants moving forward with regard to this issue and how it may impact the industry.


I was just in a minor pissing match over taxes in another thread.

I've been collecting and paying sales taxes on in-state transactions since day one. I'm not aware of today's ruling or what it might mean for me, but I'm sure I'll hear if it has some impact.

State sales taxes are an endless treadmill of petty nonsense people everywhere find ways to avoid. I don't have to charge tax on anyone outside my state. I can get in my car and drive to Delaware, home of tax free shopping, if I want to save 6% PA sales tax on a major purchase.

The states are losing revenue now in bigger numbers because of online business, so that's their new focus, but if they want me to charge everyone, they'll need to pass a law, and I'd hope most states are smarter than that.

If PA said every online business in the state had to charge sales tax on every sale, regardless of where the buyer is, all the big businesses would relocate to Delaware or some other state. Amazon is coming here, and bringing billions of dollars with them. PA legislators can't possibly be stupid enough to kill that golden goose.

People have been asking me about import tariffs since Trump won. I haven't seen any change at my level, but, just to put people's minds at ease about the future, they could literally double, or triple my import costs, and you'd never notice the price increase. They're such a small percentage of my total costs. It's much worse in countries with the VAT.

Don't even get me started on how stupid the VAT is, because economics.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## ThugzZ BunnY (Feb 3, 2017)

Rhorya said:


> If I take my wife of 32 years as an example of what women want in a Watch, definitely quartz because she has too much other stuff to do than wind a stupid watch, has to be able to see the dial even without her glasses, water and food resistant because she will get all kinds of food on it when cooking and then dunk the watch under the faucet to wash it off, a date function because she's always asking me what day it is (it's Tuesday!, the 18th!), it has to be metal (I don't like metal it gets too hot) ok plastic (it has to go with all my outfits) gold (I like silver) arabic numbers ( I like the stick numbers, those are Roman numerals honey), diver inspired ( I don't go diving, I said inspired honey it means a design concept, but I don't go diving, ok forget diver inspired), a second hand ( I don't need a second hand and I cannot see the time without my glasses anyway, have you seen my glasses?, what day is it again?
> 
> Where's the watch I bought you?
> 
> ...


this just made me laugh for a sold two minutes straight.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Cheddar said:


> Hey Doc,
> 
> Enjoy reading your thoughts here and am listening to the Hour Time podcasts you're on. Curious if you have any thoughts on the impact of this morning's Supreme Court decision (states can require entities doing virtual business in their state to collect sales tax) on the watch industry as a whole and on micro-brands in particular? The South Dakota statute at issue requires collection of sales tax if you conduct 200 transactions or $100,000 worth of biz in the state annually, so I would imagine not too many micro-brands would fall under that, but other states may set lower thresholds (which may or may not ultimately be permitted, depending on how low the thresholds courts ultimately decide constitute a substantial nexus with the state, or if Congress ever steps in).
> 
> Anyway, curious if this has been a topic of discussion among micro-brands and if there are plans for smaller merchants moving forward with regard to this issue and how it may impact the industry.





docvail said:


> I was just in a minor pissing match over taxes in another thread.
> 
> I've been collecting and paying sales taxes on in-state transactions since day one. I'm not aware of today's ruling or what it might mean for me, but I'm sure I'll hear if it has some impact.
> 
> ...


So, just got a few minutes to review the ruling, and here's my take...

If I understand it correctly it says:

1. States are no longer prohibited from enacting laws requiring businesses to collect sales taxes despite not having any "substantial connection" to the state.

What that has meant, until now, is that I have to collect PA sales taxes from PA residents because my business is also located in PA, but if you're outside PA, I don't have to collect sales taxes from you, because you're not in PA. And I don't have to charge sales taxes for your state, where you live, because I don't live there.

It's a lot like not paying VAT when you're in the USA and you buy from the EU.

That doesn't mean I have to start charging everyone sales tax at PA rates. You're still not here. You still don't have any PA sales tax liability.

That doesn't mean I have to start charging everyone sales tax based on where you are.

What it means is, based on where you are, your state could pass a new rule that says sellers in OTHER states have to start charging sales tax when they sell to someone in your state. So, if Texas passed that law, and you're in Texas, I'd be "required" to charge you TX sales tax.

2. The Quill case involved North Dakota, but it seems that a handful of Justices have made noise previously about being willing to take a fresh look at the matter. In particular was Kennedy in 2015, and in response, _*South*_ Dakota passed a law that said any merchant which had more than 200 transactions or $100,000 in annual sales WITHIN THAT STATE to charge 4.5% sales tax on those sales.

As far as I know, South Dakota is the first and thus far only state to make such a move, and it was intended to target large online sellers like Wayfair, Overstock, etc.

...

It's a mess, completely, for many reasons...

First off - for this to become a thing, like, a real thing, several things have to happen.

One, each state has to raise the issue within their legislature, and pass it. Last I heard, state legislatures were leaning more red than blue, so figure 60% of states wouldn't do this on principle, and the ones who'd like to might be smart enough not to do it out of self-preservation.

Every state that passes such a law is hurting itself. What it means is, if I have to abide by it, I'm not shipping to South Dakota, or I'm capping my sales in that state at 199 and $199,999.99 per year.

That's the letter of the law, and it doesn't take a genius to see the loophole. Nor does it take a genius to figure out that not only are South Dakotans going to be paying more for everything they buy because of the new sales taxes, the guys like me who cap sales to that state are going to create artificial scarcity, driving prices higher, which will create a black market, driving prices higher.

Remember when one state passes a huge cigarette tax, what happens? The mob starts stealing cigarette trucks, and people create businesses filling vans with cigarettes in NJ, and driving them to NY.

Secondly - screw you, South Dakota, try to catch me.

I'm a PA resident. I don't have to file JACK SQUAT with South Dakota. I file PA income taxes, and PA state sales taxes, full stop. PA doesn't ask me where all the other sales are going, just what I collected from PA residents, and it's all on the honor system.

Imagine podunk South Dakota, with their stupid, piss-ant annual budget, trying to chase after all the little merchants in the other 49 states, trying to figure out who sold more than 200/$100k into the state.

And, while I'm at it - write a better law, you nitwits. What do I do with the first 199 sales, when I don't know if I'm going to get over 200 or not? Do I charge tax on them, knowing I might not need to, and won't have to refund the customers, or do I NOT charge tax, and then figure out later that I should have, when I'm supposed to pay SD?

Oh, you found the budget to come after me, SD? Awesome. You just offshored ecommerce, idiots. Instead of me paying into the federal and state tax systems, I'm out of business, and some guy in China is now selling to the guys in SD. Good luck collecting sales tax from the guy in China, you buffoons.

I think what's more likely to happen is states start mandating that businesses have to collect sales tax from everyone, at local rates, so if you're in TX, it doesn't matter, I have to charge you PA tax. States will likely expect to see other states follow suit, so it won't matter to you in TX, because TX does the same thing to me in PA.

But, again, that's problematic. Delaware is 20 minutes away, and they have no state sales tax. You want to hurt my business that way, PA? I'll move to DE.

Plus, it's still on the honor system, and that's a lousy system. What's to stop me from reporting sales taxes in an amount half of what I actually collected? Checking my income tax records?

That won't get you there, because you don't know my costs, my margins, etc. You can force me to submit a P&L every year, but there are hundred and one accounting tricks to bury details in big numbers. I'll put every meal I eat on my business credit card, and call it all business related. Prove it wasn't.

And, really, 200 sales or $100k? Really? What if I'm selling 1 item for $199,999.99, or 202 items for $10 each? Can anyone in the SD department of commerce or legislature do math? Can we not see the stupidity in that sort of either-or requirement testing?

It may be a precursor to a nationwide sales tax, but...you need the pro-tax people to gain control of both houses of congress and the white house, all at the same time. Good luck with that.

Roberts made some good points in his dissent:

"Some companies, including the online behemoth Amazon," he wrote, "now voluntarily collect and remit sales tax in every state that assesses one - even those in which they have no physical presence."

He added that small businesses will face new burdens in trying to comply with a tangle of tax laws, giving examples.

"*Texas taxes sales of plain deodorant at 6.25 percent but imposes no tax on deodorant with antiperspirant," Chief Justice Roberts wrote. "Illinois categorizes Twix and Snickers bars - chocolate-and-caramel confections usually displayed side-by-side in the candy aisle - as food and candy, respectively (Twix have flour; Snickers don't), and taxes them differently*."

"One vitalizing effect of the internet has been connecting small, even 'micro' businesses to potential buyers across the nation," he wrote. "People starting a business selling their embroidered pillowcases or carved decoys can offer their wares throughout the country - but probably not if they have to figure out the tax due on every sale."

That's what I'm talking about. Even here in PA, the sales tax gets tricky, and I *LIVE* here.

It's on all non-essentials, so everything but food and clothing, including candy, but not if you order food in a restaurant, or a tailored suit, and books are taxed, unless they're textbooks, and not pharmaceuticals, or anything bought for resale, and you pay it on commercial utilities, but not residential, and you don't pay it on gas, because that's already built in separately, and you don't have to charge it for online sales if the shipping address is out of state...

Give me a break. States can pass whatever they want, but good luck enforcing it and collecting the revenue. I'll stop selling to peeps in SD before I send SD's government one thin dime.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Amazon does not charge me sales tax when delivering to my PO box in NH.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

applejosh said:


> I'll let you know soon enough if mine ships in the next day or so. I need it to be delivered by Saturday before I leave on my business trip (and had a couple issues in the past with a delay between order and shipping, but usually it's good).


Received mine today. The watch is great, and the turquoise color is better than I thought it would be. Watch case is beautiful, it fits my wrist very well (yay for short lug-lug), and the bracelet which I thought I wouldn't like that much is really growing on me. My only nitpick with the watch is the stem doesn't like to go back to position 0. If I pull it out to set the time, in only goes back to position 1. Then I have to finagle it to go back to winding position. Also, winding seems a little rougher than any of my subs. But the one watch I have with an ETA movement in it is the same way, so given the similarity of the STP to ETA, it might just be something in the design to make it feel that way.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

ThugzZ BunnY said:


> this just made me laugh for a sold two minutes straight.


Welcome to my life

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I’m a seller on Amazon. I live in Florida so naturally I collect sales tax on any Florida sales and then remit this to the state every month. Recently Amazon started collecting sales tax in the state of Washington and another state (not 100% sure ATM but Pennsylvania I think). They collect the tax and they remit it to those states.
Amazon is all in favor of a national sales tax, I’ve had emails from them a few times talking about this. eBay is the opposite. But you can bet it’s coming. I’m sure the state legislators are rubbing their hands together in anticipation of getting even more tax money.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Delaware is 20 minutes away, and they have no state sales tax. You want to hurt my business that way, PA? I'll move to DE.


Hope you don't have any kids... our schools are rubbish here compared to Pennsylvania. But you can't beat the sales tax (or lack thereof). Although to do any real shopping you have to drive up to KoP. So it's a catch 22...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

applejosh said:


> Received mine today. The watch is great, and the turquoise color is better than I thought it would be. Watch case is beautiful, it fits my wrist very well (yay for short lug-lug), and the bracelet which I thought I wouldn't like that much is really growing on me. My only nitpick with the watch is the stem doesn't like to go back to position 0. If I pull it out to set the time, in only goes back to position 1. Then I have to finagle it to go back to winding position. Also, winding seems a little rougher than any of my subs. But the one watch I have with an ETA movement in it is the same way, so given the similarity of the STP to ETA, it might just be something in the design to make it feel that way.


With the STP movements, we've found it's quite common for the crown to need a little finesse changing positions when the movement is new. The lubricants in the mechanism may not be spread evenly around yet, and STP's lubricants seem to be a little thicker than what we've seen in other movements. I've had to explain to a few people that the crown action should improve with use, and you'll see more positive position changes.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Ok just strapped on my DR and feel like a total dumbass. One thing that bothered me about the dial is instead of having three lines between the markers there are two. And I just realized the sides of the markers are the minute indicators. Hope I have explained this well enough.
Now I like the watch even more (even though it made me feel stupid).


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> With the STP movements, we've found it's quite common for the crown to need a little finesse changing positions when the movement is new. The lubricants in the mechanism may not be spread evenly around yet, and STP's lubricants seem to be a little thicker than what we've seen in other movements. I've had to explain to a few people that the crown action should improve with use, and you'll see more positive position changes.


Thanks for the explanation and heads up. I was able to "finesse" it, so I removed the wrappings and sized it. It wasn't anything that would prevent me from wanting to keep it. It really is a looker. Disappointed in myself for not doing the pre-order.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> Ok just strapped on my DR and feel like a total dumbass. One thing that bothered me about the dial is instead of having three lines between the markers there are two. And I just realized the sides of the markers are the minute indicators. Hope I have explained this well enough.
> Now I like the watch even more (even though it made me feel stupid).


Maths...

There are 360 degrees in a circle, and 60 seconds in a minute (and 60 minutes in an hour), so we know that every second/minute mark is 6 degrees removed from the one on either side of it.

If you have a thick hour marker on the same track as the minutes/seconds, I can squeeze four second/minute marks between it and the hour marker on either side, if you want me to, but I can't do that AND make them 6 degrees apart, depending on the width of that marker and the size of the circle.









No matter how big or small the circle, it always has 360 degrees, and there are always 60 seconds/minutes, 6 degrees apart, whether there's room to print them on the dial or not.

The only exception is the three-hand watch with the one-hander dial...


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I already admitted I’m an idiot...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> But, again, that's problematic. Delaware is 20 minutes away, and they have no state sales tax. You want to hurt my business that way, PA? I'll move to DE.


There's more than one state in the union with no sales tax. And we're better than Delaware. At...everything.  We've even got our own homegrown watch company. Veros are made right here in PDX.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Dam nabit now I have to re-read this thread again for the 3rd time!!

IT's Gold.....Gold!



Disneydave said:


> I'm recalling the "sweet spot" thread - https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4246090&share_fid=13788&share_type=t. I'm wondering if you should send him a Sub and see what he thinks.
> 
> Seriously tho, the NTH Sub case is easily my favorite watch case - I couldn't think of a single "improvement" to it that wasn't some arbitrary cosmetic thing (titanium, zaratsu polish, whatever the flavor of the week is). The design is stellar.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> I already admitted I'm an idiot...


Sorry mate, wasn't beating you up, only demonstrating the thoughts I have when people online rip into our designs, sometimes without thinking, or maybe just without realizing we know what we're doing, even if they don't...

"Why can't they see that the date window should be located closer to the outside of the dial??? What's wrong with them? It looks like hell there!"

"Nothing's wrong with us, other than knowing that the date wheel is located a fixed distance from the center-post in the movement, so we can't locate the date window anywhere we want, even if we want it closer to the edge of the dial, because if we did that, the date wouldn't show in it, you'd be looking at the movement spacer inside the case. But what do we know? We're only watch designers. We're not internet watch experts talking smack on a forum..."



Davekaye90 said:


> There's more than one state in the union with no sales tax. And we're better than Delaware. At...everything.  We've even got our own homegrown watch company. *Veros are made right here in PDX*.


Uhm...that's not "made in Oregon", Hoss.

According to their site, the case, dial and strap are, and assuming that's true, that is impressive, as far as it goes (I'd be more impressed at 1/2 the price), but the hands, and more significantly, the movement, are made outside the USA. That's a stock Sellita SW200.

Considering the recent demise of Niall, which was selling a similar story, at a similarly lofty price point, I'd love to know how well the business is doing, but I wish them well.

Also, forum software is doing weird stuff lately, including showing URLs for images. That mountain scene is lovely, but the "ilovegrowingmarijuana.com" domain is magnificent, and I wish you even more success in your future endeavor.

Get sticky with the icky.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Good and you








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Wanted to add to the wrist size/watch diameter discussion (also doubles as a SOTC post for December/2018 - 2 watches are out, one not pictured) - I have a 6" wrist (yes! That tiny!) - but ist flat on top and no height.

The Ti h20 has a L2L if 54.2mm and the citizen a lugless Design at 48mm diameter.

My sweet spot is 40-42, putting the näcken and the pam in that area.

I think the näcken (or any other of the nth subs) will fit the vast majority of watch guys / guyettes 










Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Uhm...that's not "made in Oregon", Hoss.
> 
> According to their site, the case, dial and strap are, and assuming that's true, that is impressive, as far as it goes (I'd be more impressed at 1/2 the price), but the hands, and more significantly, the movement, are made outside the USA. That's a stock Sellita SW200.
> 
> ...


Of course, making a watch and making a watch _movement_ is an entirely different ball of wax, and getting one made in the USA isn't exactly easy, I'm well aware of that. We also have different rules for what the word "made" means than say, the Swiss, which is why Ginault watches only claim to be "built" here. I'm sure at their price points, it would be basically impossible. Even companies with vastly more resources than any microbrand like Oris and Frederique Constant that have the _ability_ to make in-house movements choose not to in watches they sell for under multiple thousands of dollars because it's far more cost effective to put an off the shelf Sellita in there.

I just think its cool that we have a local micro doing a lot of the building work here, especially given our relatively small size compared to major US cities. That image actually just came from Google search, it was the first one that came up showing Mt. Hood with the word "Oregon" on it. It does highlight another one of the er... highlights here though. If you want to partake of said sticky icky here in OR, it's 100% legal to do so. You don't even need to pretend to have glaucoma. Freedom and all that.


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

docvail said:


> "Why can't they see that the date window should be located closer to the outside of the dial??? What's wrong with them? It looks like hell there!"
> 
> "Nothing's wrong with us, other than knowing that the date wheel is located a fixed distance from the center-post in the movement, so we can't locate the date window anywhere we want, even if we want it closer to the edge of the dial, because if we did that, the date wouldn't show in it, you'd be looking at the movement spacer inside the case. But what do we know? We're only watch designers. We're not internet watch experts talking smack on a forum..."


That's something I have been wondering too. I was wondering if it wouldn_t be possible to use extra gears/a transmission (not sure if that is the right term) to move the position of the date wheel. Of course, that would introduce new potential points of failure and would probably increase case height. Just wondering if that would theoretically be feasible.

Yup, obviously I'm not an engineer. 



Mil6161 said:


> Good and you
> View attachment 13240457


Would probably be slightly big for me, but so gorgeous!


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

nuru said:


> That's something I have been wondering too. I was wondering if it wouldn_t be possible to use extra gears/a transmission (not sure if that is the right term) to move the position of the date wheel. Of course, that would introduce new potential points of failure and would probably increase case height. Just wondering if that would theoretically be feasible.
> 
> Yup, obviously I'm not an engineer.
> 
> Would probably be slightly big for me, but so gorgeous!


Well obviously its technically possible, but it would basically be modifying the movement. Won't come cheap, and not everyone will be able or willing to do that.


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

nuru said:


> That's something I have been wondering too. I was wondering if it wouldn_t be possible to use extra gears/a transmission (not sure if that is the right term) to move the position of the date wheel. Of course, that would introduce new potential points of failure and would probably increase case height. Just wondering if that would theoretically be feasible.
> 
> Yup, obviously I'm not an engineer.
> 
> Would probably be slightly big for me, but so gorgeous!


Christopher Ward did that here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/new-christopher-ward-c9-harrison-big-day-date-automatic-979826.html

Big effort for what many people would say is minimal gain. I'm all for seeing it happen, but then I also probably wouldn't actually put my hand in my pocket for it. If the date window is floating in the middle of the dial then either make the design work, or give me a no date option. I'm happy with either (and so is my wallet).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Of course, making a watch and making a watch _movement_ is an entirely different ball of wax, and getting one made in the USA isn't exactly easy, I'm well aware of that. We also have different rules for what the word "made" means than say, the Swiss, which is why Ginault watches only claim to be "built" here. I'm sure at their price points, it would be basically impossible. Even companies with vastly more resources than any microbrand like Oris and Frederique Constant that have the _ability_ to make in-house movements choose not to in watches they sell for under multiple thousands of dollars because it's far more cost effective to put an off the shelf Sellita in there.
> 
> I just think its cool that we have a local micro doing a lot of the building work here, especially given our relatively small size compared to major US cities. That image actually just came from Google search, it was the first one that came up showing Mt. Hood with the word "Oregon" on it. It does highlight another one of the er... highlights here though. If you want to partake of said sticky icky here in OR, it's 100% legal to do so. You don't even need to pretend to have glaucoma. Freedom and all that.


You're preaching to the choir, Dave. I didn't literally write the book on the topic, but I have written enough about it to fill a book.

http://www.janistrading.com/blog/swiss-made/

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - moving the date window, particularly further outward, as implied in my earlier post, which was inspired by seeing someone whinge about it - it isn't possible without choosing a different, larger movement.

If you do a Google image search for various affordable movements, just the movement, you'll see the date wheel rides around the periphery of the movement. That's as far from the middle of the movement as it can get. If you moved the date window outward on the dial, you'd be out past the edge of the movement, and looking through the window would only give you a view of the movement spacer in the case.

A better example is looking at the two sizes of the Hamilton Khaki. The small one has the date window at the dial's edge. The big one has it "closer to center", and doesn't look "right" to some. It's the same movement in both. They didn't reposition the window, it's in the same location. One just has a bigger dial/case. That's how far from center the window MUST be, no matter where you'd like it.

Moving the window from 3 to 4, 6, or some other location isn't as hard. It's easy if the movement supplier makes alternative date window variants of the movement. It's a little more complicated to re-print date wheels, but it can be done.

My larger point was, I've read a lot of online design criticism, and a lot of it is impossible nonsense. I can't defy the laws of physics or geometry. What some people whinge about can't be done, and a lot of the rest shouldn't be done, for aesthetic's or logic's sake. And yet, the whinging never stops.

Sorry, the last week or two had me realizing how naive I was when I first discovered forums and thought I was surrounded by such knowledgeable people. But the longer I do this, the less I feel that way, and much of the stuff I read here and on Facebook, put forth with such an air of certainty, has me questioning many of my choices.

It's not you guys, it's all the inanity. It's guys filing chargeback disputes because they didn't update their address or can't be bothered to put some thread locker on a bracelet screw. It's the guys who think the only determinant of price is the movement. It's the guys who think I'm in the parts business. It's the guys who imagine themselves experts in rubber straps, or bracelet finishing, or some other aspect of watch production which is actually beyond their grasp.

Happily, I'm starting vacation tomorrow. I could use the rest and break from the madness.

If you all want to know exactly how I feel, go watch RatFacedGit's video, the one he made showing a Seiko movement attached to a drill, spinning the date change at 3000rpm until it breaks.

I'm that movement, and online WIS are the drill.






Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Enjoy you time-off Doc.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm. Date window thing is simple though. Just hot-glue a wider date disc on top of the existing date disk, then you can move the date window to edge of case, simple as.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm. Date window thing is simple though. Just hot-glue a wider date disc on top of the existing date disk, then you can move the date window to edge of case, simple as.


Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it does seem like, for 2824/2892 variants at least, it could be that simple. [Edit: No, I don't means as simple as hot glue -- but I do mean as simple as a stepped disc design that engages the teeth and date change mechanism, but elevates the actual date numerals over the mainplate.] You might need slightly taller hands posts to clear the dial, and longer dial feet to ensure the dial isn't resting on the date disc. So you're making the whole thing thicker.

Is it worth all that custom manufacturing just to move the date window further out on a wide watch that now also has to be thicker, though? Probably not.


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

docvail said:


> If you moved the date window outward on the dial, you'd be out past the edge of the movement, and looking through the window would only give you a view of the movement spacer in the case.


That is why I - purely out of technical interest - was speculating about moving the date wheel as well as the date window. That you don't see a date if you move the date window somewhere where it is not right above the date wheel sounds like a bit of a no-brainer. ;-)



docvail said:


> Sorry, the last week or two had me realizing how naive I was when I first discovered forums and thought I was surrounded by such knowledgeable people. But the longer I do this, the less I feel that way, (...)


LOL. It's a process of constant triage. Unfortunately, for every little nugget of gold, you have to sift through a lot of dirt.



docvail said:


> Happily, I'm starting vacation tomorrow. I could use the rest and break from the madness.


Enjoy.


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm. Date window thing is simple though. Just hot-glue a wider date disc on top of the existing date disk, then you can move the date window to edge of case, simple as.


Just write it in biro while you're at it I guess.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I love to see this. We need more Women....wait a minute. If we have more Women liking watches, that means more competition in the home for em, which means less watches for us.

LOL J/K but still love seeing a Woman sport a watch other then something blingy....Actually I just hate Blingy so Wear on lol.



Sillygoose said:


> A female chiming in with my DevilRay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys I'm not allowed to post links to my site, but I visited the Veterans Watchmakers Initiative in Delaware today, shot a bunch of Facebook Live videos, and embedded them in the blog page on my site, for anyone interested.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ojibway Bob said:


> I love to see this. We need more Women....wait a minute. If we have more Women liking watches, that means more competition in the home for em, which means less watches for us.
> 
> LOL J/K but still love seeing a Woman sport a watch other then something blingy....Actually I just hate Blingy so Wear on lol.


I just enjoyed seeing a wrist shot without all the nasty arm hair.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## ebtromba (Oct 18, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> This is why no one likes Hardlex.


I thought the math on Hardlex made it a pretty compelling choice. Saw a chart posted here showing while it is not quite as scratch resistant as sapphire, it is close, ie significantly more scratch resistant than mineral. But it's massively more shatter resistant than sapphire and even mineral too.
Seems like it's a great choice for a tool watch.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## ebtromba (Oct 18, 2015)

docvail said:


> I always liked the CW Trident, but, personally, I think both the 38 and the 43 are "wrong". One's too small, the other is just a tad too large. It's like they made two different watches, one for smaller than average wrists, and one for larger than average, and didn't really make anything for the bulk of people close to average.
> 
> .


Yes, I feel EXACTLY the same way. I have owned both sizes at different times. 40-41mm would be a great middle ground and I too suspect it would kill, especially if they would drop the WR to 200-300m so they could make it a bit thinner as well.

My own sizing journey has been all over the map. I'm about 6.8-7" as well, and for a couple years I was very militant on small watches - I was really into vintage and "vintage-inspired" for awhile, and to me anything over 38 or 39 was stupid and grotesque.

Very slowly that changed, and now I kind of like it all, from 38 to 44mm, although I have very specific tastes on design (like all of us here)

Hamilton chrono - 38mm

Breitling Navitimer 'montbrillant' - 38mm, but mostly dial so I think it wears a bit bigger. This and the Hamilton I consider to be my 'dress' pieces, and work great the 4 times a year I wear a suit (obviously I wear them much, much more than that)

GSAR - 41mm

Seamaster GMT 'great white' - 41mm

Speedy professional - 42

And finally, the 1000m Sinn U1 I just received this week - an extra chunky 44mm. It's big, it's bulky, it's heavy, but Ive lusted after it for years and consider the dial and handset design a masterstroke.

--------
Sorry for crapping up your thread with my accidental SOTC lol









Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ebtromba said:


> Yes, I feel EXACTLY the same way. I have owned both sizes at different times. 40-41mm would be a great middle ground and I too suspect it would kill, especially if they would drop the WR to 200-300m so they could make it a bit thinner as well.
> 
> My own sizing journey has been all over the map. I'm about 6.8-7" as well, and for a couple years I was very militant on small watches - I was really into vintage and "vintage-inspired" for awhile, and to me anything over 38 or 39 was stupid and grotesque.
> 
> ...


S'all good, bro. That's a collection full of hotness. You ain't offending me with it, fo' sho'.

I'm sure I often sound unsympathetic. Probably because I often feel that way. There's no intersection between ruthless pragmatism and sympathy.

But when I'm not feeling put on the spot and on the defensive, I am able to step back and consider what it must be like to have a wrist size more than one standard deviation from the average of ~7".

WARNING - NERDINESS APPROACHING!

I had one of those moments in the last couple days thinking about all this stuff, and why it can be hard for me to explain/argue why I don't make a 38mm or 44mm whatever.

And here's the best explanation I can give:









I reckon 2/3 of my target customer base is close enough to ~7" wrist that they can pull off a 40mm or 42mm watch without feeling too put out by having to accept one while preferring the other.

But you start making anything too much smaller or larger, even if it's a 39mm "all dial" design that wears big, or a 43mm diver with short lugs, that wears small, and you're going to have a certain percentage of people who just write it off as being too small or too large, because numbers are easier to understand than design.

I owned a 39mm all-dial Certina DS-1. It wore more like a 41mm/42mm watch, and I loved it. The Seiko SBDC053 doesn't even LOOK like it's 43mm, much less wear like it. But those are really good designs, which belie their dimensions. And it doesn't matter how good the design is, I know 38mm is too small for me, 44mm is too big, and I have an average-sized wrist.

I have friends - guys on this forum - who I would love to see buy one of my watches, and I'm sure it must suck to have a 6" or 8" wrist and not have as many fantastic choices, but c'mon - this is a small business. I can't afford to take a flyer on something that 84% of the population is going to think is too small or too large based purely on the numbers.

And that, unfortunately, is the reality for anyone more than one standard deviation from average. You're either in the bottom 16% or the top 16%, but either way, I design for the 68% in the middle.


----------



## Sillygoose (Mar 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ojibway Bob said:


> I love to see this. We need more Women....wait a minute. If we have more Women liking watches, that means more competition in the home for em, which means less watches for us.
> 
> LOL J/K but still love seeing a Woman sport a watch other then something blingy....Actually I just hate Blingy so Wear on lol.





skunkworks said:


> I just enjoyed seeing a wrist shot without all the nasty arm hair.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


Thanks! For your hairless enjoyment, here's another. 









- Tappy Talkied


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Sillygoose said:


> Thanks! For your hairless enjoyment, here's another.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This reminds me why I got the blue Näcken. Looks so great in pictures! Especially without hair. The Näcken was my first endeavor into blue watches, and, well maybe I'm not a blue watch guy. Have a hard time getting used to it.
I have ordered a green canvas strap, that combo looks fantastic. Will try that before I make my final decision.

Great weekend peeps, and great vacation to you doc.









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



aicolainen said:


> This reminds me why I got the blue Näcken. Looks so great in pictures! Especially without hair. The Näcken was my first endeavor into blue watches, and, well maybe I'm not a blue watch guy. Have a hard time getting used to it.
> I have ordered a green canvas strap, that combo looks fantastic. Will try that before I make my final decision.
> 
> Great weekend peeps, and great vacation to you doc.
> ...


Put the green/yellow stripe erikas on it, you will never be happier. It's an awesome fun color combo with some history.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Maaaaaahnnn! Everytime I see the Nacken blue modern I get a lil lump in my throat. By the end of this year I will grab 1....This I swear!!!!



Sillygoose said:


> Thanks! For your hairless enjoyment, here's another.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Looks like "going hairless" will be on-trend soon, just look what you've started.............

Here's the proto:









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



aicolainen said:


> This reminds me why I got the blue Näcken. Looks so great in pictures! Especially without hair.


Sorry bruh yours doesn't look as nice with all that hair


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



househalfman said:


> Sorry bruh yours doesn't look as nice with all that hair


Great, now I have to make my fiancee wear my watches whenever I want to take pictures.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Devil Ray today








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



skunkworks said:


> Put the green/yellow stripe erikas on it, you will never be happier. It's an awesome fun color combo with some history.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


Have almost ordered that strap several times. This here pushed me over the edge.

Might not be here in time for my vacation though

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm sure it must suck to have a 6" or 8" wrist


Oh it does. More than you realize. It's really irritating how many watch companies don't even bother to list a L2L measurement in their specs, because this is a critically important number for those of us with tiny wrists, just as important as the case width. I really can't wear longer than 48mm, but I don't mind large-ish case sizes. My 42/46mm SKX and Aevig wear just fine, but I can't pull off a 41/50mm watch. Just telling me your watch is 40 or 41mm isn't enough. I went over my limit with my SDGC017, but the way the lugs on that watch arc down sort of disguises the fact that it's too big for me. That and it's just too cool looking, and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to purchase such a rare watch.

Aside from the lug length and case height problem, there's also the problem of bracelets and straps. The way the end links stick out on a lot of bracelets past the end of the lugs can add like another 2mm to the total length of a watch, so while it might be wearable on a strap, it's unwearable on a bracelet. The bracelet may also not have enough removable links to fit at all. Borealis ran into that problem with the initial Cascais run. Straps are another issue. Silicone straps are generally one size fits all, and I don't mind having a lot of extra tail on a silicone strap because it's not supposed to look nice anyway. Tons of extra tail on a leather strap though looks horrible, and the standard 80/120mm strap is way too big for me. I can punch extra holes in it to make it fit, but it will look awful.

I have to buy 70/110mm XS straps, and the number of those available on the market off the shelf is vastly smaller than standard size straps. I strongly prefer straps with QR pins to standard spring bars, and I know of literally _one_ company that makes a variety of XS length leather straps with QR pins - Christopher Ward, which is why I own half a dozen of them.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

QR pins are very easy to buy off of ebay for cheap, and all it requires is to make 1 straight incision in the strap for the QR "stud". I ordered like 20 QR pins (20 and 22mm), and converted all my straps to QR straps. Because the selection of qr-equipped straps off the bat is still too small.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



aicolainen said:


> This reminds me why I got the blue Näcken. Looks so great in pictures! Especially without hair. The Näcken was my first endeavor into blue watches, and, well maybe I'm not a blue watch guy. Have a hard time getting used to it.
> I have ordered a green canvas strap, that combo looks fantastic. Will try that before I make my final decision.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Who could possibly not like blue watches? Blues are the best! My Nacken has since moved on, but I'm always happy to wear my sky blue Aevig, it's just such a fun color.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Who could possibly not like blue watches? Blues are the best! My Nacken has since moved on, but I'm always happy to wear my sky blue Aevig, it's just such a fun color.


I'd love to see Chip bring back the Huldra. That was a fantastic design. I wasn't exactly thinking of the Huldra's case with the DevilRay, but it was definitely the first turtle-shaped case I had, the one that made me love the look.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'd love to see Chip bring back the Huldra. That was a fantastic design. I wasn't exactly thinking of the Huldra's case with the DevilRay, but it was definitely the first turtle-shaped case I had, the one that made me love the look.


As would I. Incidentally, Chip mentioned to me that he wished he had made more of the blue ones. I don't know what the breakdown was between the black, orange, and blue versions, but I wouldn't be surprised if they just made 100 of each for the 300 total run. The market has definitely spoken on that - the other two while not nearly as common as other microbrand divers do show up from time to time on the used market, usually for somewhere around $350 or so. The blue ones don't. It took me something like six months of waiting, and then incredibly two showed up within a couple of days of each other. The first one sold in about 2 hours, and I snatched the second one immediately. I haven't seen another posted since, and I bought this one October of last year.

It's definitely not a perfect watch, the bezel action is overly stiff and pretty vague with a fair amount of back play, and the lume on the bezel, indices and hands is all horrible, way worse than a $100 Seiko 5 diver that I had for a bit. I love the turtle case though, and the way the brushing arcs around the top of the lugs, matching the arc of the bezel. By far the best aspect though is that blue color. There's really nothing else out there like it, other than the light blue Squale 60ATM, a watch I'd buy tomorrow if it wasn't way too big for me (curse of the tiny wrist strikes again.) A consolation prize would be the LE KMZiZ 1521, but those make the Aevig seem about as common as an SKX. They made 35 of them, and they come up never.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Oh it does. More than you realize. It's really irritating how many watch companies don't even bother to list a L2L measurement in their specs, because this is a critically important number for those of us with tiny wrists, just as important as the case width. I really can't wear longer than 48mm, but I don't mind large-ish case sizes. My 42/46mm SKX and Aevig wear just fine, but I can't pull off a 41/50mm watch. Just telling me your watch is 40 or 41mm isn't enough. I went over my limit with my SDGC017, but the way the lugs on that watch arc down sort of disguises the fact that it's too big for me. That and it's just too cool looking, and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to purchase such a rare watch.
> 
> Aside from the lug length and case height problem, there's also the problem of bracelets and straps. The way the end links stick out on a lot of bracelets past the end of the lugs can add like another 2mm to the total length of a watch, so while it might be wearable on a strap, it's unwearable on a bracelet. The bracelet may also not have enough removable links to fit at all. Borealis ran into that problem with the initial Cascais run. Straps are another issue. Silicone straps are generally one size fits all, and I don't mind having a lot of extra tail on a silicone strap because it's not supposed to look nice anyway. Tons of extra tail on a leather strap though looks horrible, and the standard 80/120mm strap is way too big for me. I can punch extra holes in it to make it fit, but it will look awful.
> 
> I have to buy 70/110mm XS straps, and the number of those available on the market off the shelf is vastly smaller than standard size straps. I strongly prefer straps with QR pins to standard spring bars, and I know of literally _one_ company that makes a variety of XS length leather straps with QR pins - Christopher Ward, which is why I own half a dozen of them.


This could have been my rant.
So true.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Heads up, the new Sub preorders are now visible / available on SeriousWatches store.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I owned a blue Huldra. When I sold it, I think it was my fastest sale ever.


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The Huldra (with a tiny bezel mechanism fix) could be an aevig bestseller base in the same way that the Sub has been for NTH.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Heads up, the new Sub preorders are now visible / available on SeriousWatches store.


And the blue Scorpene is available...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Disneydave said:


> And the blue Scorpene is available...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


I bagged mine this morning. Counting down the days now........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## K-Kirk (May 29, 2017)

Agreed can't wait to get my blue Scorpene...😁😁😁


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Just sized the bracelet and threw on my Devil Ray for the first time. This is a seriously hefty watch, but thats part of what I love about it! This is my first micro, and the first watch I've ever paid retail for, but I am very happy with my purchase.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Looks great. I got the turquoise. Wish I had one of each color


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

The black one was my second choice. Went with the turquoise as I have a number of black divers.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

I was torn between the turquoise and black. And then all of a sudden I really wanted the "whilver". Then I thought the orange was pretty cool. It is a tough decision for sure, but I am pretty happy with the black. The turquoise is still on my short list though. 

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Soooo, I went for the obligatory lume shot of the Devil Ray, and my strangest story ensued. Charged the lume via phone flashlight, and stepped outside. Next thing you know(and I AM serious), I see a large glowing orange orb in the sky. Almost the same color as a flame. A distinct bright orange, unlike anything else I have seen in the sky in my 32 years on this earth. It is heading my direction (west to east, from the CA coast inland).

At this point, the object makes a gentle 90 degree turn toward san Francisco, aka South. None of these movements were extraordinaraly quick or abrupt and the general speed was not more than a commercial aircraft. But the color and size was unlike anything I have ever seen.

I tried to convince myself that it was a hot air balloon as that would explain the color, but the speed at which it moved was far greater. At this point I am thinking a test of an ICBM, but seems strange to have it come from the coast inland, as our air force bases are all east of me. Unfortunately my phone could not capture what I saw and made the object look like another star. Oh well, at least I got the lume shot!









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Dub Rubb said:


> Soooo, I went for the obligatory lume shot of the Devil Ray, and my strangest story ensued. Charged the lume via phone flashlight, and stepped outside. Next thing you know(and I AM serious), I see a large glowing orange orb in the sky. Almost the same color as a flame. A distinct bright orange, unlike anything else I have seen in the sky in my 32 years on this earth. It is heading my direction (west to east, from the CA coast inland).
> 
> At this point, the object makes a gentle 90 degree turn toward san Francisco, aka South. None of these movements were extraordinaraly quick or abrupt and the general speed was not more than a commercial aircraft. But the color and size was unlike anything I have ever seen.
> 
> ...


UFO!! Sounds to me like aliens were coming for you. But luckily you wear wearing that devilray, they got scared and made a 90 degree turn elsewhere.


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Fun in the sun









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wimads said:


> UFO!! Sounds to me like aliens were coming to check out that devilray, then got scared and made a 90 degree turn elsewhere.


Fixed that for you.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)




----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

(date function is better come at me)


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm partial to the no-date.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)




----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm just partial.....









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

dub post.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Has become one of my steady go-to's









Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Current favorite...









Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Emcphers (Sep 17, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Would you mind to paste the link where we can bit the snowflake hands mod? TIA


ck2k01 said:


> Don't forget making a new batch of Nazarios, perhaps with Mercedes hands . . .
> 
> In the meantime, I'm enjoying my just-arrived Santa Fe (will be trying out the snowflake mod soon--the hands are inbound) and looking forward to trying out the DR upon receipt from John next week. You need to add "amassing NTHs" to that "stages of watch collecting" graphic a few pages back.
> 
> View attachment 13147547


Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk


----------



## Emcphers (Sep 17, 2017)

Just received this Santa Fe from a fellow member. I like it so much, once I realized there was a pre order going on, I snagged a Nacken Modern Blue as well!









Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)




----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Current favorite...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So this one is a new acquisition, picked it up from SubSix on Ebay with one of the recent 20% off coupons. Love it. Can't stop looking at it. But the downside to me was the NH35... I know many don't have a problem with it but I've had terrible luck. Never ever receive a watch with a NH35 anywhere near regulated. Shocked to see that 24 hours later the Spectre II is spot on with the atomic clock! Beyond impressed.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> So this one is a new acquisition, picked it up from SubSix on Ebay with one of the recent 20% off coupons. Love it. Can't stop looking at it. But the downside to me was the NH35... I know many don't have a problem with it but I've had terrible luck. Never ever receive a watch with a NH35 anywhere near regulated. Shocked to see that 24 hours later the Spectre II is spot on with the atomic clock! Beyond impressed.


I don't know if all other brands regulate watches before they ship, but we do.

Even so, a watch can take a hard drop in shipping, which can affect timekeeping. It can't be helped, and shouldn't be blamed on the movement or the brand.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> I don't know if all other brands regulate watches before they ship, but we do.
> 
> Even so, a watch can take a hard drop in shipping, which can affect timekeeping. It can't be helped, and shouldn't be blamed on the movement or the brand.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Good point... and I realize my sample size is really small. Probably only in my head... but I seem to have much better luck with the 9015 personally.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

So, for the first time in 3 years, my fiance told me that she didn't like my watch. She said it was ugly. And this is with an over 30 watch sample size. It was. . . my Devil Ray. She said the case looked too thick. I explained it was because it was rated for 500m. She said it was weird that the bezel was mostly covered by the case. I explained that was so the bezel couldn't accidentally be bumped and change it's set position. She correctly said that "you're not a diver and will probably never go diving". I said I know, but I love that it is purpose built and I love the throwback vibe of the watch. She reiterated that it was ugly. Thank goodness she doesn't know how much it cost!!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## NoTimeToLose (Sep 23, 2016)

So the wedding's been called off, right?


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

DuckaDiesel said:


>


Beautiful combo!


----------



## therion (Sep 6, 2011)

Never in my life have I bought a watch on pre-order, let alone a watch that I've only seen on a computer rendering pic. But reading this entire thread has convinced me, that a person like @docvail can't possibly make a bad watch. Those are the most intelligent, interesting and witty posts ever. But THE deciding factor was Mark from SeriousWatches.com ( Netherlands) , who has won me over with his amazing service and very kind and professional approach. I managed to snag the last No date Barracuda  So if you're still on the fence, contact Mark, you won't regret it!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

therion said:


> Never in my life have I bought a watch on pre-order, let alone a watch that I've only seen on a computer rendering pic. But reading this entire thread has convinced me, that a person like @docvail can't possibly make a bad watch. Those are the most intelligent, interesting and witty posts ever. But THE deciding factor was Mark from SeriousWatches.com ( Netherlands) , who has won me over with his amazing service and very kind and professional approach. I managed to snag the last No date Barracuda  So if you're still on the fence, contact Mark, you won't regret it!


That's very kind of you to say, but I think you're underestimating me. I'm certain I could make a bad watch if I set myself to the purpose.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## therion (Sep 6, 2011)

You should consider making one in the next run to prove me wrong. And call it NTH Worst.


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

docvail said:


> That's very kind of you to say, but I think you're underestimating me. I'm certain I could make a bad watch if I set myself to the purpose.


Who knows. Maybe it would be like in "The Producers".


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

nuru said:


> Who knows. Maybe it would be like in "The Producers".


I can hear the song now.... "♬ It's springtime for Chris Vail and NTH.......♫"

I'll get my coat.......

"Taxi!!"

Edit:

Here's the video, that Mel Brookes had an eye for the ladies........






Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

My wife didn't like the Devil Ray, either. However, she's the one that bought me the Nacken, so it's not an NTH thing thank goodness.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orthos ii mod today








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I posted this shot over in today's WRUW thread but I felt an additional remark deserved a spot in this thread as well.

I wore my DevilRay today and received two--count them, two--independent compliments. One about the orange ring and one about the band.

Based on my experience with this hobby over the last few years, two compliments in a single day > the Seaforth's Hodinkee effect. Congrats on a job well done, Doc!


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Azores today








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I posted this shot over in today's WRUW thread but I felt an additional remark deserved a spot in this thread as well.
> 
> I wore my DevilRay today and received two--count them, two--independent compliments. One about the orange ring and one about the band.
> 
> ...


Gotta love getting compliments on your watch. It happens too infrequently, it seems.

As for the Halios Seaforth and Hodinkee -

I like Jason from Halios, and am happy for him and his success. I'd be lying if I said I was never jealous in any way, but still happy for him regardless.

Hodinkee seems to focus more on higher-end stuff. Nothing against them, but I think of blogs like Hodinkee as being "part of the problem". Their coverage glamorizes luxury brands which are steadily becoming irrelevant by pricing themselves out of existence.

I think when bad business decisions get rewarded with fawning press coverage, it only delays the inevitable reckoning, and makes it that much less likely the failing brands will be able to recover.

Plus, they're catering to, and enabling, the segment of the market with an unhealthy interest in conspicuous consumption. I wonder if they ever consider the financial and emotional wreckage they're encouraging by promoting "lifestyle p0rn". In my view, what they're doing to men and our self-image as wage-earners is akin to what women's magazines have done to women, by promoting unrealistic body images. People who get paid to exploit other people's insecurities deserve a special place in hell.

Covering a brand like Halios shows that they're not completely out of touch, and perhaps even see the growing importance of mid-range microbrands. But, like too many blogs, they're front-running, or evangelizing, by only covering the brands they can see are popular and deem "cool" enough to warrant their attention, rather than considering what the larger market trends are. They're playing king-maker, looking to crown the future leaders of the segment.

I don't want to name names, but there's a well-known blog which refuses to give my business any coverage at all, yet they heaped praise on another brand which is now on the verge of collapse, despite the huge boost they were given.

Soon after starting my business, I realized that I had to make sure my business could be sustainable even if it got no blog coverage at all. Engaging directly with customers has put me in the position of being able to decide which blogs I want to work with, when, and on what terms. I won't have the success of my business subject to online tastemakers' whims.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...being able to decide which blogs I want to work with, when, and on what terms. I won't have the success of my business subject to online tastemakers' whims.


I remember that quarrel with that „influencer" who wanted a free watch . Thanks for reminding me, good laugh. Again.

I believe hollow snowflake hands should be a thing. Somewhere. Sometime. Maybe in another universe. 

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Gotta love getting compliments on your watch. It happens too infrequently, it seems.
> 
> Plus, they're catering to, and enabling, the segment of the market with an unhealthy interest in _conspicuous consumption_. I wonder if they ever consider the financial and emotional wreckage they're encouraging by promoting "lifestyle p0rn". In my view, what they're doing to men and our self-image as wage-earners is akin to what women's magazines have done to women, by promoting unrealistic body images. People who get paid to exploit other people's insecurities deserve a special place in hell.


Accurate analysis of the state of play as usual Doc, but just one thing.

I'm certain that this pertains for 99% of all the WIS on WUS and other forum, but judging by the large number of watch-filled boxes lying around my abode, some of which only rarely ever have their lume see the light of day, aren't we all guilty of enabling an interest with _IN_-conspicuous consumption? Just an observation........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I remember that quarrel with that „influencer" who wanted a free watch . Thanks for reminding me, good laugh. Again.
> 
> I believe hollow snowflake hands should be a thing. Somewhere. Sometime. Maybe in another universe.
> 
> ...


That wasn't who I was speaking about. Social media influencers are a dime a dozen. I was talking about a major blog which has blackballed my business for some years.


Ragl said:


> Accurate analysis of the state of play as usual Doc, but just one thing.
> 
> I'm certain that this pertains for 99% of all the WIS on WUS and other forum, but judging by the large number of watch-filled boxes lying around my abode, some of which only rarely ever have their lume see the light of day, aren't we all guilty of enabling an interest with _IN_-conspicuous consumption? Just an observation........
> 
> ...


To be fair, yes, I sell a not very inexpensive product to a group of people who often demonstrate obsessive traits in their collecting habits. I may be letting myself off the hook too easily, but here goes...

First, I'm not over-charging for what I sell. If anything, all my prices are a little lower than where they ought to be, if everyone worked off the same minimum markup from factory door to retail floor.

Secondly, I'm not marketing my products with slick, psychologically manipulative ads which exploit people's sense of personal inadequacy. Everything my company says about the product is focused on the product itself and my customers' enjoyment of it. We're not attempting to create any illusions about a purchase being a transformative act or some sort of idealized self-actualization. How many times can I say, it's just a watch and isn't going to make you happier or more attractive to the opposite sex?

Third, I'm friends with many of my customers, and more than once, I've cautioned someone to slow down in their spending. I frequently try to remind folks that this is just a hobby, not a substitute for more important things like taking care of family. And I've happily canceled pre-orders from those who've emailed me, often with apologies, relating some tale of personal woe. It's a relief for me to sometimes give someone back their money, and that feeling that I'm not contributing to their insolvency, rather than being concerned over a few hundred dollars, reminds me I've still got integrity and a conscience.

I sell a good product at a very fair price. I don't go out of my way to sell it to anyone who can't really afford it. I do what I can to put the lie to the industry's many malevolent illusions.

I like to think I'm part of the solution, not part of the problem, but I guess my final judgment will tell me for sure.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Fair comment indeed Doc, although my post was inspired with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek......

As for why we all do this, I just dunno and at this stage of my own life/personal development/enlightenment, I'm not going to dig too deep into that particular area of my psyche to work out what kind of therapy is at work here, all I do know, is that it seems to be working, I think.......

But, I can certainly see the danger of over-spend and I'm glad that you would intervene if you thought that another watch purchase is going to cause some pain to a purchaser somewhere down the line, a true understanding conscience is a rare attribute in the jungle that we all inhabit. Don't ever let your standards drop Doc.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

I understood what you were talking about in the first place, but did poor quoting/responding. 

The whole story reminded me of that influencer guy and somehow I wanted to put that (unknown to me) watch blog on the same page. But you know, if one has to explain one‘s jokes, they’re simply not funny...

Nevermind. 


I wonder which watchblog is the mysterious watch to blog a. 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

Doc’s talking about W&W folks.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> Fair comment indeed Doc, although my post was inspired with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek......
> 
> As for why we all do this, I just dunno and at this stage of my own life/personal development/enlightenment, I'm not going to dig too deep into that particular area of my  psyche to work out what kind of therapy is at work here, all I do know, is that it seems to be working, I think.......
> 
> ...


Have no fear. I didn't think you were trolling me, and I'd probably have forgiven you even if you were. You asked a fair question, I wanted to give you a fair answer.

I've held various theories about this hobby at various times. I can't explain why women would collect watches, but I think for many men, the watch collecting hobby is a substitute for polygamy, writ small.

In a nutshell, young men date, hopefully enough to know what they want in a woman, then settle down when they find it, and hopefully the union lasts. But, even in a happy marriage, men are men, and we're hard-wired to want variety, even after taking our vows. Show me a man who says he's never looked at another woman, and if he ain't blind, he's a liar or a fool.

A case of watches is like a little harem, or a little black book with phone numbers of many "sure things". I suspect many/most WIS collecting habits could be explained well enough by thinking of watches as a substitute for having more women in our lives.

Do we not all tend to consider the eternal questions of quantity versus quality, and seem to have "a type" we go for, whether we're talking about women or watches? How many WIS hide their purchases from their wives, and are they doing it out of fear, or because it's fun? Is having a watch shipped to the office the WIS equivalent of diddling the secretary?

I could be wrong, but...c'mon, you have to admit the similarities are there.

As for my conscience - I'm not a boy scout. I'm in this for the money, but not at the expense of being able to live with myself. Working for myself has given me the freedom to choose what I will or won't do for money. I often wish I was less burdened by ethics. I'd be making more.



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I understood what you were talking about in the first place, but did poor quoting/responding.
> 
> The whole story reminded me of that influencer guy and somehow I wanted to put that (unknown to me) watch blog on the same page. But you know, if one has to explain one's jokes, they're simply not funny...
> 
> ...


No worries. I haven't been secretive about my occasional influencer-baiting. I suppose my complete lack of interest in working with social media influencers is related to my views about working with blogs, and why I sometimes stand apart from my peers, some of whom are less discriminating than I am, when it comes to what they'll do to drive a few sales.

I've made my share of mistakes, but I've avoided making a lot more. I don't regret going about building my business the way I have, and I'm honestly proud of the good working relationships I've developed with the blogs I do work with, all of whom are fair and unbiased. I wish they all got the credit (and the audience size) they deserve.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I don't want to name names, but there's a well-known blog which refuses to give my business any coverage at all, yet they heaped praise on another brand which is now on the verge of collapse, despite the huge boost they were given.


Archie Luxury?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Jtragic said:


> Archie Luxury?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, but since you bring him up...I don't pay much attention to other people's rivalries and interpersonal tiffs, but it recently came to my attention that Archie seems to hate TGV (of the Urban Gentry) with a white-hot passion. I didn't really catch all the details, but from various posts I've seen online, I gather that he's joined forces with Dagaz to promote a design which looks a lot like the Catalina (the TGV-designed special edition NTH Sub).

I don't know if Jake from Dagaz has some axe to grind with me, or why he would. I've always been complimentary towards him and his business publicly. Other than buying some mod parts from him, and trading emails with him pursuant to that transaction, I've never had any words with him. I never really thought of us as competitors, though I guess we would be, if he's selling complete watches, not just parts.

If Archie's mentioned my business, I'm unaware of it. If he's deliberately NOT mentioned it, I'm unaware of it. I don't pay attention to what he's doing, not that I watch many YouTube reviews anyway. I gather he has a dim view of micros, in general, so I can guess what he might say about my business, if asked.

I can't say for sure why the one blog I mentioned black-balled me, but I suspect I know. Perhaps not ironically, I think it may be connected to some dealings I had with a well-known social media influencer, who proved to be without honor, despite his nice-guy online persona. They seem to travel in the same circles, and the timing seems more than coincidental.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Gotta love getting compliments on your watch. It happens too infrequently, it seems.
> 
> As for the Halios Seaforth and Hodinkee -
> 
> ...


You and Jason have the two big WUS micro threads to my eyes. Beyond WUS, it has seemed to me that the Seaforth, especially, got some very high profile reviews, while the NTH subs still got some readily noticeable reviews as well, including TGV. You both have a reputation for being highly involved owners, with a penchant for customer interaction. And then there's the fact that you both clearly have impeccable design sense because . . . you're my two favorite micro brands. So, it seems to me you're both doing the damn thing. While I appreciate that it's business and there's competition to consider, all micro brand owners can be bros (and it generally seems like you folks are)--they can rally against their shared Swiss adversary. Not so different from the three late night hosts vs. Trump.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

My Naz is +5 Seconds after a month. Just saying.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I will say that I would never have even considered a micro brand of it weren't for WUS and Doc's contributions here. For one, I love your no nonsense attitude and your posts reflect that you truly are a watch guy. I also really appreciate the insight in to how much goes into creating these watches and how much thought and hard work you put into them. It changed my perspective entirely and I am now proud to own a devil ray, even if it's the only watch my fiance thinks is ugly. I feel like she will definitely approve of one of the NTH subs though (fingers crossed!).

Your work here on WUS alone has made for at least one new convert!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> I will say that I would never have even considered a micro brand of it weren't for WUS and Doc's contributions here. For one, I love your no nonsense attitude and your posts reflect that you truly are a watch guy. I also really appreciate the insight in to how much goes into creating these watches and how much thought and hard work you put into them. It changed my perspective entirely and I am now proud to own a devil ray, even if it's the only watch my fiance thinks is ugly. I feel like she will definitely approve of one of the NTH subs though (fingers crossed!).
> 
> Your work here on WUS alone has made for at least one new convert!
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


So...you're still going through with the wedding then?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> So...you're still going through with the wedding then?


I wore a Bambino when I got married. Lame. A DevilRay would have been more boss.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> So...you're still going through with the wedding then?


We will see how she feels about one of the subs. If I can get her on board with at least that, then our future is safe.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> You and Jason have the two big WUS micro threads to my eyes. Beyond WUS, it has seemed to me that the Seaforth, especially, got some very high profile reviews, while the NTH subs still got some readily noticeable reviews as well, including TGV. You both have a reputation for being highly involved owners, with a penchant for customer interaction. And then there's the fact that you both clearly have impeccable design sense because . . . you're my two favorite micro brands. So, it seems to me you're both doing the damn thing. While I appreciate that it's business and there's competition to consider, all micro brand owners can be bros (and it generally seems like you folks are)--they can rally against their shared Swiss adversary. Not so different from the three late night hosts vs. Trump.


While Halios and NTH are competitors, I appreciate when small companies that clearly care about their industry and what they do can recognize and appreciate when a competitor has come up with an impressive product. Unfair criticism of a competitor in my mind implies that you're not so confident in your own product. Clearly there's room in the world for both companies, and others who also compete in the same space. I just picked up Evant's second effort for example, the Decodiver. It looks to be substantially better than their somewhat flawed Breguet homage, and that dial just may finally cure that Squale blue itch. I'll just have to try to not smack the ceramic bezel into anything


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> While Halios and NTH are competitors, I appreciate when small companies that clearly care about their industry and what they do can recognize and appreciate when a competitor has come up with an impressive product. Unfair criticism of a competitor in my mind implies that you're not so confident in your own product. Clearly there's room in the world for both companies, and others who also compete in the same space. I just picked up Evant's second effort for example, the Decodiver. It looks to be substantially better than their somewhat flawed Breguet homage, and that dial just may finally cure that Squale blue itch. I'll just have to try to not smack the ceramic bezel into anything


Meh. I kind of liked that Tropic design they did, or at least, I liked the dial ("fyuou-mhaey!"). Haven't been crazy about their case designs, which have seemed a bit blocky. That new one reminds me of something, but I can't quite put my finger on what it might be.

I don't want people to wonder or "worry" about what I like. Who cares? It's your collection, not mine. What I like can change day to day.

I haven't loved everything Halios has made, but Jason's an awesome guy, I admire the following he's built up for his business, and I respect the way he goes about his pursuit of perfection.

I'm friends with at least a dozen other micro-brand owners. I don't love everything they all do. Sometimes I see stuff I like, or love, and I don't know the brand owner at all. I try to be objective in my assessments of designs, regardless of any connection I may or may not have to the company. If I really like something, I'll say so. If I hate something, I won't say anything, or I'll pretend I haven't seen it, or say something coy, like, "I need to see it in the right light."

I haven't even loved everything I'VE made. Sometimes you have to make something that will sell, so you can pay some bills, and afford to make something else you want to wear, or just want to make, because you'll go crazy if you don't.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

For whatever it's worth, I don't care what anyone says, Chip Yuen from Aevig is the best designer in the game, full stop. Yes, he's my good friend, but that friendship sprung directly from my admiration for his design chops.

I'm not sure I ever told this story, but after the Riccardo, I had too many ideas I wanted to pursue, and I was trapped in "paralysis of analysis". I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do next, so I figured I'd hold a design contest, provide some basic guidelines for what I had in mind, and produce whatever design won (that became the Acionna).

I invited Chip to take part, having worked with him on the first F71 project watch, for which he was the lead illustrator, a dubious "honor" he earned from having illustrated some number of F72 (Chinese Mech Watches) projects.

In Chip's effortlessly cool way, he told me to go pound sand (nicely, but with the same result), because he was preparing to start his own micro-brand, which we all now know as Aevig.

As disappointed as I was that he wouldn't help me with the next design, I was thrilled that someone as creative and talented as Chip would start his own brand, and I offered to do whatever I could to help him. I had recently connected with Sujain from Melbourne, and we pulled Chip in as the third member of the wolfpack. We've been friends ever since.

I've been fortunate to see some of Chip's designs before anyone else, including some that haven't been publicly revealed. Every single one is the epitome of what I think of as "crisp" design. There's never too many or not enough details. Everything is perfectly proportioned. Every color choice is spot-on. Every little detail has been thoroughly thought through, and gracefully executed.

There are a few design cues I tend to use repeatedly when we're doing more original designs (as opposed to homages). They're little touches I lifted from Chip's arsenal. The designs I've produced which are most "mine" - the Cerberus, the Orthos, and the DevilRay* - all have elements which show Chip's influence on what I do as a designer.

Chip could design a chair, a car, a pair of shoes, a hat, and you'd love it. He's got that kind of eye for design. He just happens to design watches, but he could design anything, which is what makes him the best in the game.

*Not to diminish Aaron's contribution to the DevilRay.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Meh. I kind of liked that Tropic design they did, or at least, I liked the dial ("fyuou-mhaey!"). Haven't been crazy about their case designs, which have seemed a bit blocky. That new one reminds me of something, but I can't quite put my finger on what it might be.


The Tropic's bezel and dial were great (though the alignment was massively off on mine, Seiko bad). The main problem I had was the case, it was slab sided and a fat 14mm for no reason, and looked like a tuna can on the wrist. With the Deco, they've been able to shave 2mm off of that for a much more rational 12mm height, while keeping the 300M rating. I also like the mix of brushed and polished surfaces, especially that beveled stripe that thins towards the center of the case. Here the blockiness is clearly intentional, they're going for that '70s luxury sport watch look without trying to actually clone the Royal Oak or the Vacheron Overseas. The dial and bezel seem like a mix of Explorer and Fifty Fathoms cues. Will have to wait and see how it actually looks in the flesh. I should know by the end of the week. If I end up not bonding with it, I'm not too worried. I bought my Tropic for $500, and sold it for $500. I imagine the same will apply here once they're sold out.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I've been fortunate to see some of Chip's designs before anyone else, including some that haven't been publicly revealed. Every single one is the epitome of what I think of as "crisp" design. There's never too many or not enough details. Everything is perfectly proportioned. Every color choice is spot-on. Every little detail has been thoroughly thought through, and gracefully executed.


Chip does great work for sure, although I haven't loved all of his stuff...or at least not enough to actually want to open my wallet for them all. The Thor's case for example I think is kind of bland, to me it looks like a very nicely finished Seiko 5 case. I think he nailed it on the Huldra...except for the crown. It's a bit too little, and too difficult to pull out of the winding position after you unscrew it because you really can't grip it at all. The crown you use on the subs is maybe a bit less elegant, but it's certainly a lot more functional.

I'm not really a super compressor guy, but the Balaur is a fine example of the breed, no question. The Valkyr on the other hand I was never that sold on. It plays in the same design pool as the Decodiver... and honestly I think Evant did it better. The Aevig just seems a bit one note. I also thought Zodiac's similarly themed Sea Dragon was a lot more attractive. The Autochron on the other hand....I generally am not interested in chronographs, and am completely unmoved by even superstars like the Speedmaster and Daytona. If he can figure out how to make the Autochron viable though, I might have to buy one. That is just an awesome design.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Chip does great work for sure, although I haven't loved all of his stuff...or at least not enough to actually want to open my wallet for them all. The Thor's case for example I think is kind of bland, to me it looks like a very nicely finished Seiko 5 case. I think he nailed it on the Huldra...except for the crown. It's a bit too little, and too difficult to pull out of the winding position after you unscrew it because you really can't grip it at all. The crown you use on the subs is maybe a bit less elegant, but it's certainly a lot more functional.
> 
> I'm not really a super compressor guy, but the Balaur is a fine example of the breed, no question. The Valkyr on the other hand I was never that sold on. It plays in the same design pool as the Decodiver... and honestly I think Evant did it better. The Aevig just seems a bit one note. I also thought Zodiac's similarly themed Sea Dragon was a lot more attractive. The Autochron on the other hand....I generally am not interested in chronographs, and am completely unmoved by even superstars like the Speedmaster and Daytona. If he can figure out how to make the Autochron viable though, I might have to buy one. That is just an awesome design.


Chip's designs are about the complete package, but I think he really excels at dials/hands. I may be more focused on case design than he is, but I can't say for sure. I don't know for sure if this is right, or if it's changed, but I think he does most of his work in 2D, primarily looking at a design from the front.

It was actually comments from Chip which contributed to me getting more into the minutiae of case design, and working from multiple perspectives. At a glance, he noticed things in the Riccardo that I had never seen.

I think it may be the Decodiver reminds me of the Valkyr case, and I like the Valkyr better. The Decodiver seems disjointed to me - too many details, not all working in harmony together, like a mashup of stuff from too disparate styles.

His autochron concept was originally based on the ST19. If he asked me, I'd advise him to go mecaquartz. He knows about my experience with that movement, so I doubt he'll bother asking.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> His autochron concept was originally based on the ST19. If he asked me, I'd advise him to go mecaquartz. He knows about my experience with that movement, so I doubt he'll bother asking.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


He's already had that thought. "However a compromise can be made with the use of the Seiko VK64 Mecaquartz chrono movement for mass production next to a limited run of true autochrons. The VK64 mecaquartz is a quartz chronograph with a smooth running 1/5sec secondhand mimicking the mechanical counterpart and has an instant flyback reset function vs the 360 degree turn in regular quartz chronographs. The VK64 equiped Mecachron would be in the €300 range where as an automatic will be a minimum 3 to 4 times more expensive."

For me it's gotta be a HW or automatic chrono movement, or I'm not interested. There's already a big pile of cheap MQ chronos out there (Undone, etc). My JDM Citizen BY0044-77E had a comparable 1/5 second quartz chrono movement, with the further advantage of being solar powered and radio controlled, so it was always perfectly accurate. Still boring. Still ugly 1-beat running seconds hand at 6. I'd say go for the ST1940, genuinely nice chronos using that movement are very few and far between. Or hell, why not swing for the fences? Use the Valjoux 7753, or an ETA-2892 with a Dubios-Depraz module! Make it $2500!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> He's already had that thought. "However a compromise can be made with the use of the Seiko VK64 Mecaquartz chrono movement for mass production next to a limited run of true autochrons. The VK64 mecaquartz is a quartz chronograph with a smooth running 1/5sec secondhand mimicking the mechanical counterpart and has an instant flyback reset function vs the 360 degree turn in regular quartz chronographs. The VK64 equiped Mecachron would be in the €300 range where as an automatic will be a minimum 3 to 4 times more expensive."
> 
> For me it's gotta be a HW or automatic chrono movement, or I'm not interested. There's already a big pile of cheap MQ chronos out there (Undone, etc). My JDM Citizen BY0044-77E had a comparable 1/5 second quartz chrono movement, with the further advantage of being solar powered and radio controlled, so it was always perfectly accurate. Still boring. Still ugly 1-beat running seconds hand at 6. I'd say go for the ST1940, genuinely nice chronos using that movement are very few and far between. Or hell, why not swing for the fences? Use the Valjoux 7753, or an ETA-2892 with a Dubios-Depraz module! Make it $2500!


Easy to say when you're not the brand owner, looking at 300-500 piece MOQ's, and large groups of WIS who think all microbrand watches need to be under $500.

I used the ST1940 in the Riccardo. It's a bad idea. I'm not even sure if Seagull even makes it any more. I had a defect rate so high I lost the ability to accurately calculate it. Last I was able, it was over 30%, and I'm not exaggerating when I say factories expect an ultimate failure rate of 50%, which is where I think we ended up.

It always cracks me up when other micros ignore my experience, and think theirs will be different. One fellow micro owner said he was seeing a 10% failure rate almost a year ago, then I talk to a retailer who tells me they're getting back more than half of the pieces they sell of that model from that brand, and plan to send all the unsold pieces back for a refund.

The economics of ST19's and micros just don't make sense. The added production and returns costs eat up all the profits, and no one is willing to pay enough to make it worth the effort, in my view. Are you going to pay $750 for a Chinese auto-chrono? No? I don't blame you, but that's what I'd charge if I had to do it again.

The Valjoux 7753 isn't cheap, nor uber-reliable enough to please incredibly nit-picky WIS, who like to complain about quirky crown action and stuttering chrono seconds hands. The DD module movements are quirky, and thick as hell.

If he HAD to make it a true auto with bicompax registers at 3 and 9, I'd recommend the Seiko NE86, but they're still not cheap, nor thin, nor small in diameter, and unless it's changed, they have long lead times.

I considered making an NE88/NE86 chrono. It would have to be at least $1200 retail, given the expected production costs, maybe more. If I have to make 300 of them, the production costs will be about equal to what I'd pay to make 600 NTH Subs. How many people are going to buy a $1200 autochrono from me? Even if I were to do discounted pre-orders, how many people are buying >$800 microbrands in pre-order? How many times do I have to deal with, "for that much money, I want a brand name"?

If either Seiko or Citizen were selling a solar-powered, high-beat, quartz chrono - not even meca-quartz, just plain solar quartz - I'd buy it, and use it in a chrono. That's all I want - solar-powered, high-beat, and quartz (no flyback reset). Give me those three things in one chrono movement, and price it so I can sell the watch for less than $500, I'd use it.

Otherwise, I'm out of the chrono game, unless someone commissions me to make 300 Seiko NE88's for $1200, and pays in advance.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Easy to say when you're not the brand owner, looking at 300-500 piece MOQ's, and large groups of WIS who think all microbrand watches need to be under $500.
> 
> I used the ST1940 in the Riccardo. It's a bad idea. I'm not even sure if Seagull even makes it any more. I had a defect rate so high I lost the ability to accurately calculate it. Last I was able, it was over 30%, and I'm not exaggerating when I say factories expect an ultimate failure rate of 50%, which is where I think we ended up.
> 
> ...


I guess that would explain why nobody uses the ST1940. I don't think anyone expects El Primero levels of buttery smoothness from the 7750/53, obviously you're not going to get that in a $700 Glycine Combat Chronograph. Where more people will probably balk is when said $700 Glycine needs a $400 service after 6-7 years or so. ~14-15mm cases are also par for the course there. And of course that's not even restricted to chronographs. The in-house Tudor Black Bay is a fat bastard, and it's a three-hander. Seiko's 4R57 based watches are pushing 15mm (for a dress watch??) and all you get there is a power reserve hand and a date sub-dial.

People are always going to complain that everything is too expensive, regardless. I'm sure you get plenty of that now. Monta flew a little too close to the sun when they put an Eterna movement in the original OK and asked $3500 for it, but they seem to be doing fine in the ~$1500 space. The Orion Calamity I'm less sure about. Monta's fit and finish is WAY up there with Oris and Longines if maybe not quite Omega level, whereas the Calamity doesn't really seem all that much better than what Christopher Ward is doing for half the money. Nothing against Nick, but I probably would've put a 9015 in there and cut the price by $500.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Let's not forget those $300-$400 discounted swiss auto-chronos from Bulova. Who cares that they look like poop and dull, boring as a brick, it's still a "SWISS MADE CHRONOGRAPH" for very little money. Surely microbrands should undercut that, right? Oh but also do a better case and better looking dials/hands/finishing. 

...

No, going into chronos is not a smart play. There are a few micro brands who have built their whole identity around making chronographs, and frankly, I wonder what will happen to them when (imo pretty damn soon) the WUS public gets tired of the seiko mecaquartz. The VK movements have sparked the last few years' surge of cheap micro-chronos pretty much exclusively. But lets be honest, nobody is particularly excited or happy about these mecaquartz movements anymore. Give it a few more threads on how they are basically mostly plastic, and the tide will start turning. And as for alternatives... as doc said - a solar chrono module from seiko or citizen might cut it. Plain quartz chronos are not well regarded as-is, and autos/manualwinds are either crazy expensive, or insanely unreliable, or both.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Forgot to use the micro adjustment as the day went on. Any guess on what watch I was wearing lol?









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Easy to say when you're not the brand owner, looking at 300-500 piece MOQ's, and large groups of WIS who think all microbrand watches need to be under $500.
> 
> I used the ST1940 in the Riccardo. It's a bad idea. I'm not even sure if Seagull even makes it any more. I had a defect rate so high I lost the ability to accurately calculate it. Last I was able, it was over 30%, and I'm not exaggerating when I say factories expect an ultimate failure rate of 50%, which is where I think we ended up.
> 
> ...


Hey Doc, have you looked at the Baltic Bicompax? Ok they use ST1901, the hand-winding variation, but it seeemmmmms they are doing well, at least with the Kickstarter project. They released a limited edition with panda dial recently so I think the Bicompax is selling well at 649€ with EU tax.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Forever8895 said:


> Hey Doc, have you looked at the Baltic Bicompax? Ok they use ST1901, the hand-winding variation, but it *seeemmmmms* they are doing well, at least with the Kickstarter project. They released a limited edition with panda dial recently so I *think* the Bicompax is selling well at 649€ with EU tax.


I'm aware of it.

You THINK they're doing well. You don't know. People think any brand getting good press coverage or putting up big numbers on Kickstarter is doing well, right up until they reveal they're not doing well, then shutter their doors. I'm sure people thought Niall, Zixen and Marternero were doing well. Most micros, doing chronos or not, barely make enough profit to justify the time and effort.

I'm doing well enough not screwing around with chronos, mechanical or otherwise. There's no good reason for me to stretch to create a product with narrower appeal, slower sales pace, thinner margins, and more headaches.

649€ is about USD $604 without the taxes. That's not enough, in my opinion, especially if they're truly assembling them in France (?). Plus, that's not what they actually sold them for, just their proposed retail price. Most of the KS pieces were sold for much less than that, no?

It's not hand-winding versus auto. The autos have an extra area of problems, but the hand-winders aren't overly reliable. I'm friendly with HKED, who probably has more experience with the ST19 than anyone else. I asked him how he did it. "We test, test, test, then test some more" is basically what he told me. At least he's in Hong Kong, and can get them fixed there. You can't get them economically repaired here, which is why, if you get a bad one, you have to send it back there.

I'm not set up to test, test, test, then test some more, and manage a lot of pre-delivery defects. There's not enough in the price to compensate me for the time spent doing that. Like I said, if I could charge $750 for one, maybe, but even at that, I wouldn't love the idea, because of the post-sale headaches, and slower sales pace at that price.

Trust me, if there was a good way to do it and I thought I could profitably sell it, I'd have done it already.

Anyone who wants to contract with me to produce 300 NE88/NE86's at $1200 or more has a chance at getting my attention. All others are just spitting into the wind.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> I guess that would explain why nobody uses the ST1940. I don't think anyone expects El Primero levels of buttery smoothness from the 7750/53, obviously you're not going to get that in a $700 Glycine Combat Chronograph.


I know from experience that WIS expectations aren't always realistic, and the higher the prices get, the less realistic the expectations become.

Yes, for $700, many folks expect perfection, buttery-smoothness, etc. I haven't got time to deal with unrealistic expectations from WIS who think they know better than I do what the expectations for the product should be.



Davekaye90 said:


> Where more people will probably balk is when said $700 Glycine needs a $400 service after 6-7 years or so.


True, and even more people will balk at paying $700 for a non-big-name-brand chrono, when Bulova is flooding the market with $500 val.7750's, and Fortis is about to go out of business, creating a tidal wave of cheap, "Swiss Made" watches from a big name brand.



Davekaye90 said:


> ~14-15mm cases are also par for the course there. And of course that's not even restricted to chronographs. The in-house Tudor Black Bay is a fat bastard, and it's a three-hander. Seiko's 4R57 based watches are pushing 15mm (for a dress watch??) and all you get there is a power reserve hand and a date sub-dial.


14mm-15mm at what diameter, and with what water resistance? 40mm? 5 ATM?

Thickness increases as you increase case diameter and WR. A 14mm-15mm thick watch with a 39mm diameter looks like a dwarf hockey puck. A 16mm-18mm thick watch with a 42mm diameter looks like a slightly larger dwarf hockey puck.

The DevilRay is 14mm thick, but does't wear like it. The DR has 500m WR, but the crystal opening isn't any larger than it is on the NTH Subs, and the movement isn't as thick as the chrono movements.

A 100m WR chrono, which is the least WR I'd do, is going to be thick. The Riccardo was 100m WR, and 42mm x 14mm, maybe 14.5mm, I'd have to go look it up, but don't feel like it. The ST19 is not as thick as those other movements.

Trust me, they're thick, and so are the watches.



Davekaye90 said:


> People are always going to complain that everything is too expensive, regardless. I'm sure you get plenty of that now.


They are, and I do, so what sort of lunatic would want to go HIGHER?



Davekaye90 said:


> Monta flew a little too close to the sun when they put an Eterna movement in the original OK and asked $3500 for it, but they seem to be doing fine in the ~$1500 space. The Orion Calamity I'm less sure about. Monta's fit and finish is WAY up there with Oris and Longines if maybe not quite Omega level, whereas the Calamity doesn't really seem all that much better than what Christopher Ward is doing for half the money. Nothing against Nick, but I probably would've put a 9015 in there and cut the price by $500.


I've seen Oris and Longines and Omegas a plenty. They're not that special. I can't remember if I've seen a Monta up close, but in pics, the finishing looks good. I don't think I've seen a Calamity up close, but I'm sure the fit and finish are fine, even at the price.

Chris Wards for half the money don't have ETA 2892's in them, assembled by Nick.

What you're doing there is making my argument for me. For what the Calamity costs Nick to produce, it HAS to be priced as it is. You want an ETA 2892 in a microbrand diver with neat little features? That's $1500. And people balk at the price, comparing it to lower-spec Chris Wards and such.

Why, for any reason, would I rush to make a $1200-$1500 auto chrono, or even a $750 hand-winder with a Chinese movement, when this is the logic WIS use?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> 14mm-15mm at what diameter, and with what water resistance? 40mm? 5 ATM?
> 
> Thickness increases as you increase case diameter and WR. A 14mm-15mm thick watch with a 39mm diameter looks like a dwarf hockey puck. A 16mm-18mm thick watch with a 42mm diameter looks like a slightly larger dwarf hockey puck.
> 
> ...


The MT5602 in the in-house BB is 31.8mm x 6.5mm. The case is 41mm x 15mm, and a totally ordinary 200M WR. It's a fat bastard. I'm not sure of the dimensions of the 4R57, but the Cocktail dial is 34mm, with a 40.5mm x 14.5mm case, and 50M WR. Also a fat bastard. My 6R21 based SDGC017 has an additional complication, a slightly bigger case, and double the WR at 100M, and it's 12mm high.

Depends on which Oris, Longines, or Omega. Some of them are definitely underwhelming in the flesh (Divers 65) others like the Aquis I think are very well done. I do not see anything close to the Aquis from the Calamity. That's true that an $800 Chris Ward is only getting you a SW200-1, but a few hundred more than the Calamity gets you the COSC certified in-house SH21 movement with 5 days of PR, which walks all over the 2892.

I'm not really trying to imply that Nick has massive profit margins on the Calamity, I'm sure he doesn't. Really I'm just not sure about the market positioning. I've seen *loads* of "massively overpriced!!!" comments about the Calamity, so clearly for a lot of people at least, the movement/design/finishing on offer is not matching up with the price tag. Since we don't actually know what the cost to make them is, people are going to assume that there's a margin there. I don't see the same kinds of comments about Monta's watches, even though they actually cost a bit more than the Calamity does with the same 2892 inside. So therefore Monta would seem to be delivering on general WIS expectations of what they should expect for ~$1500.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Depends on which Oris, Longines, or Omega. Some of them are definitely underwhelming in the flesh (Divers 65) others like the Aquis I think are very well done. I do not see anything close to the Aquis from the Calamity. That's true that an $800 Chris Ward is only getting you a SW200-1, but a few hundred more than the Calamity gets you the COSC certified in-house SH21 movement with 5 days of PR, which walks all over the 2892.


Funny thing is after wanting an Aquis for a very long time and finally getting one I was slightly underwhelmed by it. And I really didn't like the awkward dimensions and feel (to me of course) of the 40mm version when I checked one out at an AD recently. Bought a Divers 65 (the 40mm version with the big numbers) and I REALLY like it. Much more then the Aquis. Just shows how subjective all of this really is.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> Funny thing is after wanting an Aquis for a very long time and finally getting one I was slightly underwhelmed by it. And I really didn't like the awkward dimensions and feel (to me of course) of the 40mm version when I checked one out at an AD recently. Bought a Divers 65 (the 40mm version with the big numbers) and I REALLY like it. Much more then the Aquis. Just shows how subjective all of this really is.


Very true. I think on the bracelet the Aquis is one of the nicest divers on the market at around its price point. Of course such a clean look with the integrated lugs is a double-edged sword, the downside being very limited strap options otherwise. The 65 doesn't have that issue, but I thought the case looked kind of plain in person. I definitely prefer a mix of surfaces and edges.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> The MT5602 in the in-house BB is 31.8mm x 6.5mm. The case is 41mm x 15mm, and a totally ordinary 200M WR. It's a fat bastard. I'm not sure of the dimensions of the 4R57, but the Cocktail dial is 34mm, with a 40.5mm x 14.5mm case, and 50M WR. Also a fat bastard. My 6R21 based SDGC017 has an additional complication, a slightly bigger case, and double the WR at 100M, and it's 12mm high.
> 
> Depends on which Oris, Longines, or Omega. Some of them are definitely underwhelming in the flesh (Divers 65) others like the Aquis I think are very well done. I do not see anything close to the Aquis from the Calamity. That's true that an $800 Chris Ward is only getting you a SW200-1, but a few hundred more than the Calamity gets you the COSC certified in-house SH21 movement with 5 days of PR, which walks all over the 2892.
> 
> I'm not really trying to imply that Nick has massive profit margins on the Calamity, I'm sure he doesn't. Really I'm just not sure about the market positioning. I've seen *loads* of "massively overpriced!!!" comments about the Calamity, so clearly for a lot of people at least, the movement/design/finishing on offer is not matching up with the price tag. Since we don't actually know what the cost to make them is, people are going to assume that there's a margin there. I don't see the same kinds of comments about Monta's watches, even though they actually cost a bit more than the Calamity does with the same 2892 inside. So therefore Monta would seem to be delivering on general WIS expectations of what they should expect for ~$1500.


I don't know if I'm following all this. This exchange is all over the place. It's making my head hurt, and I don't want to do it any more. Prepare for a wall of text.

6.5mm is somewhat thick for a movement, especially if that does NOT include the hands height, and I don't think it does. The 6r20 isn't much thinner, at 6.15mm, which definitely does not include the hands height.

I love when people talk about case thickness and quote movement thickness to me, as if I don't understand how it does or doesn't impact case thickness, but they leave out the hands height, which isn't standardized across movements, necessary clearances above and below the movement, necessary clearances at the seconds-hand tip, water resistance, crystal opening diameter, crystal shape, and case construction.

It's almost like people who've never designed a watch think they know more about it than I do.

Trust me, I know what I'm talking about here.

Movement thickness is a primary driver of case thickness, but it's not the only driver, and throwing out various movement thicknesses doesn't really prove anything other than the ability to look up a movement thickness. Without all the other critical info, which also matters, a lot, movement thickness is just *A* number, not *THE* number.

My point wasn't that mechanical chronos are thick compared to other watches (many of which are thicker than they need to be, and some of which are precisely as thick as they need to be), especially not dive watches in general, or the Black Bay in particular.

My point was that they're thick, period, by necessity, because of how thick the movements are, and when you add WR and case diameter, they only get thicker, and, notwithstanding the popularity of some thick watches, generally speaking, people don't like when a watch is too thick.

I understand the BB is a popular watch, but its thickness is one of people's complaints about it, just as it's a recurring complaint about many 6r15-based watches like the Cocktail Time. Maybe I'm not understanding your point, but it seems to be, "The Black Bay is 15mm thick, and the SARBs are thick, so who cares if a chrono is 15mm thick", or something like that.

I don't agree. I think people care, hence the popularity of the very thin NTH subs, and all the interest in thin watches these days. When people stop complaining about thick watches, I'll worry less about the thickness in a chrono. Until then, examples of thick-yet-still-popular watches don't sway me much.

I'm not looking to trash Oris, Longines or Omega (or any other brand). I'm just saying, as someone who's actually produced watches, and as someone who's put hands on watches costing several tens of thousands of dollars - most very expensive watches are generally underwhelming in hand, ESPECIALLY given their prices.

There's no measurable difference in quality between what I'm selling for $600-$700 and what Oris or Longines is selling for twice that. I'm sorry, there isn't. Anyone who thinks they see it is imagining it.

I know because Swiss brands at that level are using many of the same vendors I am. There's no difference in quality. If anything, what we're selling at a lower cost is often BETTER, because micros are held to higher standards of quality, yet hampered by market perceptions about what we should charge, because we're "micro".

We've had *actual* experts - people in the industry, with decades of production experience - look at samples from our factory, and rate them at least as good as Longines, and in some cases as good as Panerai, for fit and finish, construction quality, etc.

People who zero in on some small little nitpick, like the sharpness of the edge of a bracelet or the corner of a clasp - those aren't quality issues. Those are communication issues. I can tell my bracelet supplier - soft edge finishing. I can tell my OEM - choose a different clasp with rounded corners. People think those are quality issues, and they're dead wrong. Those are component or spec choices, not quality issues.

I don't know what "anything close to the Aquis from the Calamity" means. Have you seen a Calamity in person? What did you find lacking in it? Actually, don't tell me, let me guess - the fit and finish? That's the one area with vague enough meaning and widespread enough misunderstanding to give all WIS cover for making biased judgments. Anyone who isn't a true expert shouldn't be throwing it around as if it means something definitive.

I don't know why the SH21 "walks all over" the 2892. How? Because of the lower power reserve? That's one aspect of it. Explain to me why longer PRs matter so much? Honestly, I don't get it.

If you wear the watch every day, anything longer than 24 hours is more than enough. If you don't wear it every day, then the only way a longer PR would seem to matter is if you were wearing it with a very specific number of days or hours in each interval.

Shorter than 2 days between wearings, it doesn't matter, because the ETA's power reserve will get you there. Longer than 5 days, it's stopped the next time you come back to it anyway. So, it matters if you're wearing it more frequently than every 5 days but less frequently than every 2 days. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to matter.

In fact, it actually matters less than that, if you understand PR's impact on accuracy. COSC testing only measures accuracy over the first half of PR. So a watch running 5 days is likely to be gaining or losing a lot of time for the last 2.5 of them, and you'd likely be re-setting the time after 5 days anyway, just like you would if your 40 hour PR watch has stopped after 2 days.

Longer power reserve is a neat thing for manufacturers to talk about, but most people don't really get any added utility out of it.

What about the service costs? I know any watchmaker can service an ETA. How about the CW in-house movement? Flight to the UK, party of one?

The Calamity is under 11mm thick. The CW Trident is over 15.5mm. I know the 2892 is thin. I'm not spending ten minutes looking for the SH21 thickness, but I reckon the 2892 is walking all over the SH21 in that regard.

The Trident on the bracelet is $2k. The Calamity on bracelet is $1500. That's $500 difference. That's enough difference for people to think about.

"For a few hundred more than the _____ you can get a ______" is a game we can play all day, up and down the price range. It's a game I got tired of playing years ago. For less than a NTH Sub with lowly Miyota 9015, you can get a "Swiss Made" ____ from whomever. Fine, go get one. I'm not in that game.

There will always be "better" choices for not much more or "a whole lot less" money. If someone was deliberating about a CW Trident with the SW200, we could as easily say, "for a few hundred more, you can get a Calamity with an upgraded 2892 in it!"

Watch collecting isn't something you can do by the numbers. A watch is either something you want, or it isn't. If it isn't, you'll find a reason to legitimize your not wanting it, and often, that'll be price-based rationalization.

Whenever someone says something is "overpriced", I try to remember what I'm actually hearing them say is "I don't like it enough to spend that much to get it" - that's all it is, period, full stop. It's their personal preferences intruding on their ability to judge pricing objectively.

People who love the Calamity see the value. People who don't love it $hlt on the value. It's just as true for Monta. Welcome to my world. I've been seeing the same thing over and over since I started doing this five years ago.

"We don't know what they cost to make..." Correction. I do know, I can guarantee, within a very tight range of error. I can look at just about any microbrand (and many mainstream brand) watches and guess the production cost. I've done it many times, and I'm routinely told I'm within $5 per unit.

Nick doesn't have massive profit margins on the Calamity, for certain. I don't know what specifically you mean by "market positioning", but I too have seen loads of comments from people who say it's overpriced, and they're all dead wrong. That $1500 price is dead right.

My point was that THEY SAY IT, which is why I've held off on making an >$1000 auto-chrono, or an $800-$900 GMT, or anything else which puts the price into that range where online "experts" are likely to balk, "for not much more, you can get an _____!"

It's not just online experts, either. I saw a microbrand owner recently say a micro should never cost more than $1000. I'm saying that it's dangerous for a micro to cost more, he's saying it should never cost more. There's a difference. What if the watch costs more than that to produce? You have to price it higher, but, it's dangerous, which is what we've seen with Niall, Monta, the Calamity, and others.

My point is - people are out of their minds. There's no logic to it. But I have to run a business, so I try to make good decisions, which take into account people's insanity and lack of logic. I'm not doing anything I think won't work well, even if it's "justified", because I can see insane people crucifying just people.

Again, I'm not sure I follow the course of this exchange. We started out talking about Chip's chrono design. I said he should avoid the ST19, and make it meca-quartz. You said automatic or handwind, or go home. I said cost, reliability, and thickness are concerns. You seem to have said they weren't, and yet, maybe also, they are, because of Black Bay, Seiko something, Monta, and Calamity, and people complain, or don't complain, and Chris Ward, Oris, Longines, in-house movements, and PR.

It's too much for me to keep track of it all. I can't keep entertaining exchanges that start with one narrow topic and three days later we're marooned on a desert island of unlimited/unending watch-geek debates and "Doc, what about ____" hypotheticals with no basis in reality.

Let me wrap this up...

Re - Chip's chrono design - If he makes it, he should avoid the ST19, and I'm guessing he will. He might do what other micros are doing - design a case that will accommodate either the auto-chrono NE8X or the meca-quartz VK whatever, and offer the choice of movement to people who want either a <$500 meca-quartz or a >$1000 auto-chrono. That would seem to be the way to please both the mechanical-or-go-home crowd, and the micros-can't-be-more-than-$X crowd.

Either way, better him than me, because that will be a chunky monkey, and I'm not really into selling either a <$500 meca-quartz or a >$700 anything right now, chunky or not, given what I read in the tea leaves, and what I know about selling chronos, thin or thick watches, online experts' opinions about microbrand pricing, fit and finish, and all the other topics people want to quiz me about, in an effort to stump the chump.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

We need some pictures, too much reading lately.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

It's funny you should mention Longines, I just showed my dad (who got me into this whole mess and happened to be wearing his recently purchased Longines conquest VHP) my Devil Ray. We both just spent some time admiring each other's watches and noticing some similarities in terms of fit and finish and overall quality. I will admit, the conquest sure is a looker, and while I would have gone with the auto, I respect the VHP.

My favorite thing was seeing his reaction when I listed off the specs, but he was especially in love with the overall design of it. "It's kinda like a DOXA, but not" and "It reminds me of my old diver, what was it?". I was very happy to see how he felt about a watch he had never heard of or seen.

He literally pointed out all the little things without prompting. "That's cool how the bezel can only be moved at the top and bottom" "what the. . . Is the crown lumed?!?"

He has been a watch guy for much longer than I have been alive, and was thoroughly impressed with this watch which pretty much made my day. I am looking into getting him a Sub for his retirement or maybe birthday.

Sorry for the rant, started drinking early for the 4th, but I was just excited/surprised by his reaction to seeing his first NTH.










Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I understand the BB is a popular watch, but its thickness is one of people's complaints about it, just as it's a recurring complaint about many 6r15-based watches like the Cocktail Time. Maybe I'm not understanding your point, but it seems to be, "The Black Bay is 15mm thick, and the SARBs are thick, so who cares if a chrono is 15mm thick", or something like that.
> 
> I don't agree. I think people care, hence the popularity of the very thin NTH subs, and all the interest in thin watches these days. When people stop complaining about thick watches, I'll worry less about the thickness in a chrono. Until then, examples of thick-yet-still-popular watches don't sway me much.
> 
> ...


I think my point was (_I'm_ not even entirely sure) that I have different expectations for thickness depending on what kind of watch it is. I know chronos have to be thick, it comes with the territory, especially with "affordable" automatic chrono movements like the 7750, so (and this is just me) I'm not bothered by a 15mm chronograph. It comes with the territory. A watch like the SARY079 on the other hand, even though it's the exact same case height, I think that's _absurd_ because it's supposed to be a dress watch. Dress watches should be thin. I think the B&M Capeland Chrono is a very pretty watch, and I've occasionally thought about buying one. I haven't because I ultimately can't get past the 4:30 date, but I know it's 15mm. I sold my Tropic because it was too tall, and it's shorter than the B&M. It was _unnecessarily_ tall though. A 30ATM diver doesn't have to be anywhere near 14mm thick, as you well know.

Are some people going to whine and complain that the Capeland is too thick? Sure...but those people should do their research. _They're all like that._ Do you want an automatic chronograph? Do you not want to pay $5,000+ for it? Congratulations, your watch will be at least 15mm thick. If you don't like it, either don't buy a chronograph, or save your pennies until you can afford something thinner.

It's been awhile since I had my Nacken in hand so I'm only going by recollection, but I thought the fit/finish was what I would expect for the price. I wasn't disappointed, nor was I blown away by it. I thought the price was fair. It seemed mostly comparable to my Cascais when I had them both, maybe a bit better but not by any significant degree. Borealis watches I do think punch above their prices with their case finishing. The Portus Cale is a hell of a lot of watch for the money. My Visitor VPO when I had that I thought similarly punched above its price. I think they could _easily_ ask $1K for it, maybe more. The 9015 I'm sure puts a price ceiling on it in a lot of people's minds because that's considered a "cheap" movement (personally I don't care, but a lot of people do) but with an ETA in there, $1200+ certainly wouldn't be out of the question.

I never had my Nacken and an Aquis in my hand at the same time, but I have worn them both, and I don't think the Nacken is as nicely finished. That's not a slam on it at all, I wouldn't expect it to be, the Aquis is a $2K watch. Obviously that's just my subjective opinion, but that's how I see it. The Calamity looks (going by macro shots) about where something like the CW C60 or C65 are. Yes you're getting a better movement, but that's not something I really care about. The C60 is on the one hand not as good because of the 2824 clone instead of the 2892, but on the other hand it's better because it has vastly higher WR, if that's something you care about at all. If Chris Ward went down to 20ATM matching the Calamity, I'm sure they could match the case thickness as well.

Obviously you know what you're doing, and you have to be cognizant of the market realities of chronographs, whether they make actual logical sense or not. If it makes no sense for your guys to do another chrono because the headaches aren't worth it, clearly the smart thing to do is not do one, it's not as if there's a shortage. I hope Chip is able to some day make the Autochron a reality, it's a fantastic design and it would be really cool for it to see the light of day.


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

I like the conversation, but I also like pics.
Made some sweet rib-eyes earlier and they turned out perfect!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> I think my point was (_I'm_ not even entirely sure) that I have different expectations for thickness depending on what kind of watch it is. I know chronos have to be thick, it comes with the territory, especially with "affordable" automatic chrono movements like the 7750, so (and this is just me) I'm not bothered by a 15mm chronograph. It comes with the territory. A watch like the SARY079 on the other hand, even though it's the exact same case height, I think that's _absurd_ because it's supposed to be a dress watch. Dress watches should be thin. I think the B&M Capeland Chrono is a very pretty watch, and I've occasionally thought about buying one. I haven't because I ultimately can't get past the 4:30 date, but I know it's 15mm. I sold my Tropic because it was too tall, and it's shorter than the B&M. It was _unnecessarily_ tall though. A 30ATM diver doesn't have to be anywhere near 14mm thick, as you well know.
> 
> Are some people going to whine and complain that the Capeland is too thick? Sure...but those people should do their research. _They're all like that._ Do you want an automatic chronograph? Do you not want to pay $5,000+ for it? Congratulations, your watch will be at least 15mm thick. If you don't like it, either don't buy a chronograph, or save your pennies until you can afford something thinner.
> 
> ...


I think I'm following you now.

You know chronos have to be thick. You don't mind. Not everyone is that easy-going.

A lot of people complain about stuff that can't be helped. I'm tired of having to explain to people who complain about case thickness WHY a chrono is so thick. I'm tired of trying to sell something that's exactly how it needs to be to people who say they would buy it if I changed something that can't be changed, like case thickness for example, or date window placement, or any other of WIS "deal-breakers", faux pas, or whatever it is WIS are whinging about these days.

Lots of people are bothered by case thickness. Mechanical chronos are thick. That hurts sales. Those people aren't more likely to overlook case thickness just because I explain why it has to be so thick. Someone who knows enough about watches to know they don't like thick watches is unlikely to want an automatic chronograph enough to spend what it costs to get one, in spite of the fact they don't like thick watches anyway.

If I took the logo off the NTH, didn't tell you what was inside it, and told you it was a "Swiss Made" watch for $1200, you'd be amazed by it. I'm sorry, it's true. You're human, which means you're subject to cognitive errors.

There's nothing so mind-blowing about the finish of a $1200 _____ that you or anyone else reading this can see any difference compared to a $600 _____. Everyone says they can. Everyone is wrong. It's watch-geek mythology, the collector who buys a dozen watches, and thinks they know quality well enough to discern why one watch costs $600 and another costs $1200.

It's hype, marketing, industry lies, peer pressure, cognitive bias, confirmation bias, and a whole bunch of other BS people want to believe because it helps justify buying expensive man-jewelry.

You know how I know?

You compared a $1500 Orion Calamity with an ETA 2892 inside to a $700-$800 CW Trident with an SW200, then turned around and compared it to a $2k CW Trident with an in-house movement.

Let me explain what that means.

You like the CW Trident better. That's all it means. You like how it looks, maybe you like the brand recognition, or whatever.

Neither the $700/$800 SW200 version nor the $2000 SH21 version is a better value than the Calamity. You just like them better, and so, like every other watch-geek on the planet, your personal preferences overrode your ability to judge value objectively, and convinced you that the CW's were better values than the Orion, which you don't like.

Relax. You're normal.

Not correct, but normal.

Every single person on this forum who is saying, to others, or to themselves, that their _____ is a good value because ______ is rationalizing. They bought something they liked, which is an emotional purchase, and then they justify it with specs, quality, "muh Swiss", in-house, heritage, blah, blah, blah.

That's day one sales training. It's why car companies give you a sheet with all the specs and features, including safety features, especially in sporty cars. God forbid you have to admit you bought it because you like how it looked. You better be able to cite the fuel efficiency and side-curtain airbags, or people might think you were needlessly self-indulgent with money you earned by working hard.

You know why my prices are what they are? Every time I make a new model, I get a production cost from my factory. I take that number, and I think, "what's the most I can charge for this before my customers will tell me to go eff myself?" I take that number, the go eff myself price, and subtract my production cost, and if the difference doesn't justify the time I'm investing, I don't make that model. If it does justify it, then I do make it.

If I had a big-name brand. I could charge you more, and you'd pay it, because resale value, and heritage, and specs, and quality, and finishing, blah, blah, blah. An Oris isn't a "nicer" watch. It's just a more expensive watch. I know, because I know production, and production costs. It costs what it costs because people are willing to believe it's better, and worth more, because "Oris". They're not doing anything we're not doing. There's no secret sauce. They just have better PR.

The Borealis watches punch above their price because they're underpriced. That's simple math.

There are people who say the Visitor VPO is over-priced, because Miyota 9015 and micro. You're saying it punches above its price. That's because you like it. If you didn't, you wouldn't have bought it, and you'd be online, next to all the other guys, saying it's overpriced for a micro with a 9015.

Paying $1200 for it with an ETA inside isn't out of the question for you because you like it. If you didn't, you'd be carping about how a Steinhart with the same movement is under $400.

See what I mean? Your judgments, and every other WIS's judgments, are heavily biased in favor of or against what you like or don't like, and all the rest is just supporting arguments, few of them rooted in fact, the vast majority rooted in imagination and groupthink.

People say watch A is way more awesome than watch B. I know watch A and watch B are actually made by the same vendors, and watch A is precisely as awesome as watch B, no more, no less. I say that, people say I'm a jerk, or I've got an axe to grind, or whatever.

Just let me make the watches. You guys just enjoy the watches. Don't get wrapped around the axle worrying about the small $hlt. If you love the ____, and it costs $1600, or $2000, or $600, whatever, it doesn't matter. As long as you love it, enough to spend what it costs to get it, then get it. Stop looking for third-party validation from other people who are just as needy when it comes to approval from the herd. Stop trying to convince yourself it has features it doesn't have. You don't need justification for spending money how you want. It's your money.

Tell me you like something, that's enough for me. Tell me you don't like something, that's enough for me. I don't need all the supporting documentation for your likes or dislikes.

But don't tell me what you don't like is over-priced, or what you like is under-priced, or what you bought for less is not as well-finished, or what you paid more for is better-finished, because that's a load of steaming hot horse$hlt. It's the same horse$hlt all the other WIS are slinging, and no one calls it that, because everyone is doing the same thing.

You don't need to justify to me why you spent $2k of your money to buy something you like. It's your $2k, do whatever the hell you want with it. I don't care. I'm not your wife. I don't judge, or criticize, or second-guess what you do with your money.

If we took all the logos and price tags off everything, I guarantee a lot of people's collections would look a lot different, and a lot of the arguments on this forum would disappear. Everyone would have to judge everything on its merits, using only what they can see for themselves, and people would end up with watches they'd enjoy immensely more, without all the excess mental baggage we're all trying to saddle ourselves and each other with.

Am I saying there's no such thing as over-priced? Nope, there definitely is. I know what's over-priced, because I know production costs and how to run a business. WIS can be remarkably good (and objective) at judging value, but also remarkably bad (and biased).

The Calamity is a perfect example. Most people think it's overpriced. They're all wrong.

I hope Chip can sell whatever he makes, for as much as possible, whether it's a chrono or not. But I reckon if he does make a chrono, and if it's an automatic, people are going to whinge that it's over-priced, because Aevig is a micro. And I'll be here to say they're just as wrong, because microbrands are all but guaranteed to be good values, by definition, as compared to big brands, which can charge more, all other things being equal, because big brands.

Some will complain that it's so thick. I may or may not explain why. The uncertainty is because I'm not sure what the point would be. You either get why a mechanical chrono is thick or you don't. You either get over it or you don't. I can't keep having the same pointless internet argument, week after week.

Like I said on Facebook, these recurring debates are making me feel like Mr. Incredible, talking about saving the world...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

This just in. Gnomon's shipping is ridiculous, in a good way. Singapore to Portland in one day, for $0. Unbelievable. As for the actual watch, I've only been wearing it for four hours, but first impressions are good. Firm bezel action, almost no play, and it's less stiff than the Tropic's and thus actually pretty usable. Definitely no complaints about finishing here for the price, they nailed it. The crown guards look a bit weird in photos, and they look a bit weird in person. I'm not sure if there's a mechanical reason for why the crown is where it is, or if it's purely a design choice. I definitely would've preferred a recessed crown ala Squale, or at the very least something that blends in a bit more, but I think I can live with it. I wonder if I'm literally the only one that owns both of these blue beauties?


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Good and you








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

ConfusedOne said:


> I like the conversation, but I also like pics.
> Made some sweet rib-eyes earlier and they turned out perfect!
> 
> View attachment 13273227


I appreciate your cross hatch grill Mark game. Looking tasty and a ribeye is one of my favorite cuts! Also, and maybe I should have taken this to PM, you should REALLY look into a sous vide. Total game changer and could be had for about $100. Anyways great looking watch and steak! PM me if you want info on the sous vide.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> It's why car companies give you a sheet with all the specs and features, including safety features, especially in sporty cars. God forbid you have to admit you bought it because you like how it looked. You better be able to cite the fuel efficiency and side-curtain airbags, or people might think you were needlessly self-indulgent with money you earned by working hard.


Cars are very emotion based purchases for most people, though they'll likely never admit it. There are also some people who just hate them and begrudgingly drive the cheapest car they could find because the other option is a bicycle. I'll never understand those people. I've learned a lot about watches in the last couple of years since I started putting together a collection, but I've been into cars since roughly age three, and am absolutely obsessed with getting exactly what I want. This wouldn't be much of a problem if I bought new cars, but I refuse to eat $20K+ in depreciation in two years, so it means sometimes flying across the country to hunt down the one car at the one dealer that has what I want on it. People think I'm weird.


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

I picked up an Oceanus OCW-S100 the other day. $500 for quartz titanium is very reasonable IMO. I can just picture some 60+ year old Japanese gent, who's been training in the art of Zaratsu since age 3, polishing away to perfection on the bezel of my watch. I'm going to head over to Tokyo one day and sit down to a bottle of Saki with him, my shout, tell him what a freaking awesome job he did.

Don't you dare shatter my dreams Doc! 😋


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Ian_61 said:


> I picked up an Oceanus OCW-S100 the other day. $500 for quartz titanium is very reasonable IMO. I can just picture some 60+ year old Japanese gent, who's been training in the art of Zaratsu since age 3, polishing away to perfection on the bezel of my watch. I'm going to head over to Tokyo one day and sit down to a bottle of Saki with him, my shout, tell him what a freaking awesome job he did.
> 
> Don't you dare shatter my dreams Doc! ��


A post like that requires pics



















OCW-S100 is 40mm hardened titanium, sapphire, solar, atomic, perpetual calendar, 30 time zones, solid end links, drilled lugs, Made in Japan. Case made by the same vendor who makes Grand Seiko and Credor cases for Seiko.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

All this thick chrono talk.. I think some proper manufacturer would have a winner if they started making an affordable hand wound chrono movement. Thinner than the automatic counterparts, and priced somewhere in the gap between the Seagull and the rest.
Think the mactime/poljot 3133 was operating right in that space, untill it went down. But think if the swiss or japanese did that, that might have a more merit than some Russian name manufacturing a century old design.
Maybe drop the ball at STP.. I think you once stated they seem to make movements from some chinese catalog in Switzerland - there might be an ST1901 in their catalog


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> A post like that requires pics
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha, Yankeexpress, your pics and thoughts in other threads is what made me pick this up a few months back.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Haha, Yankeexpress, your pics and thoughts in other threads is what made me pick this up a few months back.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


I flipped this one as nice as it was I ended up wearing my AT whenever I'd want that style that said whatever coating they use on their Ti amazing no scratches


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I think I'm following you now.
> 
> You know chronos have to be thick. You don't mind. Not everyone is that easy-going.
> 
> ...


You are on a roll brother! Between this and the polygamy theory... Pure gold!

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## KJRye (Jul 28, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> The C60 is on the one hand not as good because of the 2824 clone instead of the 2892, but on the other hand it's better because it has vastly higher WR, if that's something you care about at all. If Chris Ward went down to 20ATM matching the Calamity, I'm sure they could match the case thickness as well.
> .


Just nitpicking here, but no...CW could not match the thinness of the Calamity by simply dropping the WR, but still using the 2824 clone.

The 2892 is the reason the Calamity is as thin as it is, and I am quite confident that you cannot reach that thinness and WR with a thicker movement. Note that without the dome on the crystal (ie. with a flat crystal instead) the Calamity would be under 10mm thick at it's centre.

Anyways, carry on! I'm enjoying this discussion.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



KJRye said:


> Just nitpicking here, but no...CW could not match the thinness of the Calamity by simply dropping the WR, but still using the 2824 clone.
> 
> The 2892 is the reason the Calamity is as thin as it is, and I am quite confident that you cannot reach that thinness and WR with a thicker movement. Note that without the dome on the crystal (ie. with a flat crystal instead) the Calamity would be under 10mm thick at it's centre.
> 
> Anyways, carry on! I'm enjoying this discussion.


Yes they could. Glycine did it already. The Combat Sub is 10.6mm, 20ATM rated, with the "GL 224" (2824) movement.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



KJRye said:


> Just nitpicking here...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ian_61 said:


> I picked up an Oceanus OCW-S100 the other day. $500 for quartz titanium is very reasonable IMO. I can just picture some 60+ year old Japanese gent, who's been training in the art of Zaratsu since age 3, polishing away to perfection on the bezel of my watch. I'm going to head over to Tokyo one day and sit down to a bottle of Saki with him, my shout, tell him what a freaking awesome job he did.
> 
> Don't you dare shatter my dreams Doc! ?


I love that people love the Oceanus.

Not because I love it, but because I do NOT love it.

$500? I'd never spend that for it. You can tell me it's got all the whistles and bells it has, and I'll still think, "Pfffft! I'm not spending that on a bland-looking quartz watch."

This is exactly the point I was making. Because I personally don't like it, it seems over-priced to me. For $200, or some other price that's lower than it is, I might take a punt on it. As my step-father taught me, at a low enough price, everything will sell.

But if you like it, no doubt you think it's a remarkable piece for $500, and maybe you think it's under-priced, or fairly-priced, or whatever.

If I bought it, for $500, I guarantee I'd find something to complain about. Not because there's anything really wrong with it, but because I'd have buyer's remorse, and my mind would convince me there must be something wrong with it, because that's what your mind does when you ignore what your gut tells you not to do, and you do it anyway.

But guys are here saying it's amazing, the finishing is awesome, etc, etc, etc. I bet if I handed it to an expert, someone who has worked on the production side of the industry long enough, they'd probably say it really is very well finished, remarkable in its own way, whatever. There's no way guys here are saying it's amazing, and it isn't. That's just not possible.

And yet, because it's ONLY $500, many will never be able to appreciate it, because they can't wrap their minds around the idea that a $500 watch could be THAT good. Only $1500 watches from Germany are that good, or whatever.

That's what I mean by taking the labels and price tags off everything. If I didn't know it was a "Casio", and "quartz", and "$500", would I be more or less impressed with it? I don't know, but without that information interfering, triggering bias, I'd be better able to judge it objectively. The same is true for more expensive watches. Take the logos off them, all of a sudden there's no halo of "heritage" and "prestige", and you realize - surprise - it's just a watch.

But as soon as you start adding labels like "micro", or "quartz", or anything else which triggers our bias, we lose our ability to see things clearly.

My problem with it has nothing to do with "Casio" or "quartz". It just doesn't do it for me. But if it DID do it for me, I'm certain my own biases would hold me back from buying it, because "Casio", and "quartz", which is stupid of me, I know, but that's how we are.

We all have the stupidity which comes from our own deeply-held biases, which tell us that _____ is better than _____, because if it wasn't, we'd have a harder time spending $X on it, or we'd feel like we were foolish for having already spent $X.

All the stuff I've said on this topic - it's not about MY business. I'm not defensive, or just saying all this because I have a dog in the fight. If I sold my business tomorrow, I'd be back the next day saying the same thing.

Most of what people argue about here is imaginary stuff. It only exists between your ears. It's mental baggage, and you can put it down whenever you accept that, and realize you don't need to carry it around with you. Free your mind, and your enjoyment will follow.

I honestly don't care what other people do with their money, and I don't judge. I just want everyone to enjoy what they have or get, without getting wrapped around the axle trying to justify or rationalize a purchase to ourselves or others. You don't need anyone else's approval to like what you like.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

You know, nowadays I can’t finish the day without reading a wall of text. And now my day is done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

I bought it because it's a simple travel watch that doesn't set off metal detectors (and Yankee's pics/thoughts sold me on this one). And I agree - I think a lot of people ignore it or can't get past the $500 because "it's Casio" and Casio = cheap, plastic digitals versus just saying, "meh, it's bland, I won't pay $500 for that" (cause it really is bland). It's like the new Grand Seiko logo, which, allegedly, was put on (or rather, they removed the standalone Seiko logo at the 12) because the American market can get past paying more than $200 for a Seiko. Reminds me of working in LA and I was once getting a suit made and the guy told me he makes suits for a big brand name and showed me some finished ones. If I had him make it out of the back room and not add a label, it was $300 cheaper (so, $200 vs $500) than if he put the label on it. I know a brand can be a sign of quality and standardization, but sometimes consumerism/ostentatious display runs away from reality.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> But as soon as you start adding labels like "micro", or "quartz", or anything else which triggers our bias, we lose our ability to see things clearly.


I'm with you except I don't think that 'quartz' is a label in the same way 'micro' is. Maybe I have a bias for German cars over American... but my preference for a car over a pickup truck is more than a bias... two different things. I can quantify the difference between a car and a truck. I see an automatic watch as a totally different animal than a quartz. But that's just me...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

If that Casio Oceanus shows one thing, it shows how much of a deal-breaker non-standard lugs are. That is - at least for me - THE main and only reason why I'm not switching to that watch. I want/need my leather strap options.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Yes they could. Glycine did it already. The Combat Sub is 10.6mm, 20ATM rated, with the "GL 224" (2824) movement.


The Glycine is 10.6mm with a flat crystal. That's actually very impressive, considering it's 42mm wide, and my hat's off to them. Someone put some work into making the case that thin. I'm saying that as someone who put a lot of work into making a case as thin as we could make it. It's a lot of work. I honestly don't know how Glycine did it.

The CW Trident would NOT be as thin, just dropping the WR, using the 2824-2 or SW200, if we're talking about the 43mm diameter version. As I've said, diameter affects thickness, as does movement thickness.

The 40mm Calamity's 2892-2 is thinner than the 2824-2, and the crystal opening is smaller on the Calamity than the Trident. Put a flat crystal in the Calamity, and it'd be under 10mm thick? The CW could not be made that thin with the 2824-2 at 43mm wide.

If we're talking about the 38mm version of the Trident, they could make it thinner than the 43mm version, for sure. As thin as the Calamity? I can't say for certain, but it could certainly be as thin, if not thinner than the Glycine, so...I dunno, maybe ~10.25-ish? Maybe 10mm even?

The decreased diameter would mean you could shave some thickness out of the crystal and caseback, but you still have the thicker movement, and necessary clearances above and below it and the hands.

All other things being equal, I'm pretty sure the 2892 is 0.7mm thinner than the 2824, when you include the hands post (and, trust me, you need to, when discussing case thickness), which may not sound like much, but if a bunch of watch geeks were sitting around arguing over case thickness, it's a lot.

Extrapolating the difference in movement thickness and case width, assuming the CW Trident was 43mm wide, and had the same shape crystal the Calamity does, I think the thinnest it could be with 200m WR and a 2824 or SW200 would be 11.25mm-12mm.

Hey, did I mention the NTH Subs are just 11.5mm with a domed crystal, and with a flat crystal would be 11mm, and they have 3OOm WR??? With a thinner movement (like the 2892), they could have been 11mm with a domed crystal, or 10.5mm flat.

I can do this all day.

...

I'm just sitting here trying to figure out which is the pound-for-pound champ of case thinness, the NTH Subs or the Calamity, if you equalize for movement thickness and WR. It's pretty close, for sure.

I *think* MAYBE we could have made the NTH Subs 0.2mm thinner than they were, without changing the crystal shape, but that would mean dropping clearances down to the absolute minimum. I'm looking at the Subs' case diagram, and scratching my head trying to figure out what it would be with the 2892 inside, and 100m less WR.

If we dropped the movement thickness down by 0.47mm (the difference between the 9015 and 2892), that makes the Subs 11.03mm. For the reduced WR, I'm just guessing - maybe take 0.65mm thickness out of the crystal and caseback...the NTH Subs would be 10.38mm, but I could be off on that. If I'm over-estimating the reduction in crystal/caseback thickness, let's say it would just be 0.25mm, then the Subs would be 10.78mm.

Nick deserves credit. He may have shaved every possible fraction of a millimeter out of that case, maybe more than we did out of the Subs. He might be the new champ.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> I'm with you except I don't think that 'quartz' is a label in the same way 'micro' is. Maybe I have a bias for German cars over American... but my preference for a car over a pickup truck is more than a bias... two different things. I can quantify the difference between a car and a truck. I see an automatic watch as a totally different animal than a quartz. But that's just me...


My point was, that for many people, myself included, there's an arbitrary limit on what we'll spend on a "quartz" watch, and I'm one of many who don't care how "special" the quartz may be.

It's the same with people who put an arbitrary limit on what they'll spend to get a "micro".

In that way, the labels are the same, functionally, in that people get hung up on them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Looking at the NTH Subs case diagram, and pics of the Orion...

Fun fact - the Subs' crystal opening is 29mm, 1mm wider than the 28mm dial opening, which gives the inner case wall between the crystal and the dial a very slight inward slope, and enhances the perception of depth.









Why?

Hands length.

We started out with both being 29mm, but all the handsets we found were too short, by 0.5mm. We had to shrink the dial by 1mm to make the shorter hands work.

But when we shrank the crystal to 28mm, the bezel looked too wide.

It seems like all the handsets we found were sized for a 39mm case. That would have made everything perfectly proportioned, with crystal and dial opening equal.

So, we shrank the dial to 28mm, and left the crystal opening at 29mm, and bridged the difference with a sloped inner case wall.

If we shrunk the crystal opening to 28mm, that would let us make the crystal thinner, and still maintain 300m WR. How much thinner, I can't say, but, thinner, definitely.

It looks like the Calamity has a straight up-and-down inner case wall, just judging by the pics, which, if the crystal opening is smaller than ours, would help the Calamity's thinness.

What's my point?

Only that sometimes I wish we could stop obsessing over the apparent competition between watches, and just enjoy what we like. If I could go back in time, and change that crystal diameter, to make the Subs even thinner, I wouldn't do it.

I like the bezel width as it is, and I like the sloped inner case wall, and the added visual texture it creates, and the 40mm diameter, and the domed crystal. If that means it's 0.25mm-0.75mm thicker than it needed to be, so be it. I think it looks better the way it is.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, just a heads-up...

Prices for the next batch of subs, coming in October, will be going up by $25, so instead of being $600-$625, they'll be $625-$650.

The increased pricing reflects cost increases we've had since producing the first batch of Subs two years ago, as well as improvements to the product. We're improving both the bracelet and clasp with this next production, and Miyota 9015 prices have come up some.

If the price hike burns yer puddin', there's a solution. Serious Watches in the Netherlands, Watch Gauge, and my website all have some stock left - albeit, not much - on the current pre-order, which should be shipping by the end of this month (July).

After that, we'll reveal the new designs coming in October, at the new prices.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I love that people love the Oceanus.
> 
> Not because I love it, but because I do NOT love it.
> 
> $500? I'd never spend that for it. You can tell me it's got all the whistles and bells it has, and I'll still think, "Pfffft! I'm not spending that on a bland-looking quartz watch."


This may be stupid, but I just can't get past the fact that it says "TOUGH MVT." on it. It reminds me a bit of the G-shocks that say "PROTECTION" on them. Why? I get that they wanted to put _something_ at 6 for dial symmetry, but why did it have to be _that_? I really don't need my watch reminding me that its quartz movement is "tough." I'm sure it is. I also *really* don't care.

I'm not a fan of the Oceanus series in general, same with Seiko's Astron range. All of the high-end radio controlled Japanese quartz watches have WAY too much crap crammed onto their dials. Definitely feature creep gone overboard. "It needs day-date! And a 24 hour indicator! And dual-time! And a chronograph function too, can't forget that! Oh, and cram a pointless tachymeter scale on the bezel too, we haven't reached critical information overload yet!!"


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

winstoda said:


> I'm with you except I don't think that 'quartz' is a label in the same way 'micro' is. Maybe I have a bias for German cars over American... but my preference for a car over a pickup truck is more than a bias... two different things. I can quantify the difference between a car and a truck. I see an automatic watch as a totally different animal than a quartz. But that's just me...


Agreed. I'm done with quartz forever. Things like case shape/design, bezel design/materials, brushing quality, hand design/quality, that's all subjective. I'll never buy another quartz watch though, regardless of what it costs or whether it's a Casio or a GS or a Rolex Oysterquartz. If there's no mainspring and balance wheel in there, I'm not buying. I'd much rather wear my SKX with its dirt cheap 7S26.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I thought that domed (double-domed) crystals can be made thinner overall compared to completely flat ones, since the dome shape would distribute pressure towards the sides more whereas flat crystal directs all the force downwards and not outwards.

So a 300m-rated domed crystal should be a bit thinner than a 300m-rated flat crystal. Now, whether the dome elevation can still be less than the thickness difference, I've no clue.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Nick deserves credit. He may have shaved every possible fraction of a millimeter out of that case, maybe more than we did out of the Subs. He might be the new champ.


What are your thoughts on the Portus Cale, Doc? 9015 in that, 11.3mm case height. Did Carlos leave anything on the table?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Rhorya said:


> You know, nowadays I can't finish the day without reading a wall of text. And now my day is done.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Worse for me over on this side of the planet, have to wake up to another W.O.T. and I am invariably late - again. Stop it Doc, just stop it............

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

To go to Calamity. I used a double domed crystal, because aesthetics are still important just beyond maxing out thickness. Using a FLAT crystal for the Calamity would put it at 9.5mm. Then I have the curved caseback, which if i had just made flat and steel would easily get this to 9mm or below, but again, things like comfort and aesthetics are important and each decision comes with a tradeoff. The 11.3 is the dimension from the highest curve of the caseback to the top of the domed crystal. This watch wears as if it were 10mm or slimmer. 

If it comes under scrutiny, for say, the price, it's NOT because I've priced it unfairly but rather because people have trouble figuring out where the value comes from. I understand that only a few people have gotten to see this watch, but the pricing arguments are mind boggling (mostly) and generally come from people comparing downwards in price. The watch could easily stand with the Oris 65 and SMP. If you want a great watch to hate on, look no further than the new DOXAs, gorgeous reissues of a legendary name, fitted with the cheapest catalog clasp and a 2824 for almost $3000. I could make and sell that same watch for $800 or $900 and Doc's Devilray further proves that point-and it's got a nicer clasp.

In my experience as a microbrand owner I've discovered we're held to higher levels of scrutiny while larger brands get to pass off cheap components or cut corners while receiving praise, simply because they're a large trustworthy brand or whatever. Sure some have access to proprietary stuff, or have hugely reduced manufacturing and movement costs because almost all of them are owned by Swatch, but I think it's time to redirect some of the critical eye to the larger brands-since they're being used as a standard, they should be used accurately and honestly, which currently they get away with a lot of cheapness that no successful microbrand would ever be able to sling for long. I've worked on the Calamity for about 2 years now, about 1.5 years with Kyle. Other brands don't have something like this. Other brands come close with flat crystals and flat casebacks, but this pushes the envelope with thinness. If I maxed out the thinness scale on this, like I said, it'd be like 9mm thin and you know what? People would still find a reason to hate on it. There is so much to educate and learn about pricing, watches, the watch industry and manufacturing. But to learn you have to be receptive, so if you like a watch more than the Calamity, that's fine. But nobody really touches it in terms of actual (yall been discussing superficial thicknesses) thickness. Get me a 200m dive watch that's 9.5mm thick. I'll wait, but in 2 years you'll be seeing all your favorite brands slinging them and I'll just sit here and chuckle because Kyle and I did it first.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Tropic T'ursday here in da T'umb.


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I think this is hands-down the most interesting and entertaining thread on WUS.



docvail said:


> Every single person on this forum who is saying, to others, or to themselves, that their _____ is a good value because ______ is rationalizing. They bought something they liked, which is an emotional purchase, and then they justify it with specs, quality, "muh Swiss", in-house, heritage, blah, blah, blah.


That's something I noticed when starting to read presentations on WUS and the wider watchiverse. "It is only XXX USD, but it looks like 3000 bucks." So funny. Honestly, for me, it is rather many 3000-buck-watches that look like 150 USD, but that is a different story.



docvail said:


> And I'll be here to say they're just as wrong, because microbrands are all but guaranteed to be good values, by definition, as compared to big brands, which can charge more, all other things being equal, because big brands.


I understand what you mean, and I think for many brands you are perfectly right. You pay 500 bucks for the watch and 2500 for the brand. But don't you have significant economies of scale in the lower-to-mid price range as well, that might allow for a certain area denial pricing?


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

I'm really intrigued by the Calamity. The only thing to give me pause is the size, I've read its size is even a little less than the specs and I don't have a small wrist. But everything we're talking about lately here in this thread is keeping me away. While I understand the logic of the pricing and I don't think it's priced unreasonably, all these biases we discuss here do exist in our hobby 'community'. And as someone who will inevitably look to flip anything I buy at some point, those biases indirectly affect me. I don't have a problem paying $1400 - I'd never pay that ballpark for something like a Monta (I don't get the Monta premium at all personally). But the 'bias' will kill me on resale. So I have to decide if I want to take a bath there or wait to take advantage of the bias at sometime in the future and buy second-hand. It sucks that there are so many cheap bastards like me out there... I get that. And if my wallet allowed me to be less of a cheap bastard I wouldn't be... but it dictates my situation for now.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> I thought that domed (double-domed) crystals can be made thinner overall compared to completely flat ones, since the dome shape would distribute pressure towards the sides more whereas flat crystal directs all the force downwards and not outwards.
> 
> So a 300m-rated domed crystal should be a bit thinner than a 300m-rated flat crystal. Now, whether the dome elevation can still be less than the thickness difference, I've no clue.


I'm not certain if that's true or not, but what I was referring to with flat versus domed is the height of the crystal, not the thickness of it. Without the dome, a flat crystal, even a marginally thicker one, would make the case thinner.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> What are your thoughts on the Portus Cale, Doc? 9015 in that, 11.3mm case height. Did Carlos leave anything on the table?


A domed crystal.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



nuru said:


> I think this is hands-down the most interesting and entertaining thread on WUS.
> 
> That's something I noticed when starting to read presentations on WUS and the wider watchiverse. "It is only XXX USD, but it looks like 3000 bucks." So funny. Honestly, for me, it is rather many 3000-buck-watches that look like 150 USD, but that is a different story.
> 
> I understand what you mean, and I think for many brands you are perfectly right. You pay 500 bucks for the watch and 2500 for the brand. But don't you have significant economies of scale in the lower-to-mid price range as well, that might allow for a certain area denial pricing?


No, you don't.

Economies of scale is a red herring people throw out to defend the position that big brands offer better value. It's ludicrous, if you understand their markups on cost, and that the cost breaks for volume aren't that big when you outsource production, as most brands do.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

I am not totally done with quartz wood on a gshock or a HAQ Bulova


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

crappysurfer said:


> To go to Calamity. I used a double domed crystal, because aesthetics are still important just beyond maxing out thickness. Using a FLAT crystal for the Calamity would put it at 9.5mm. Then I have the curved caseback, which if i had just made flat and steel would easily get this to 9mm or below, but again, things like comfort and aesthetics are important and each decision comes with a tradeoff. The 11.3 is the dimension from the highest curve of the caseback to the top of the domed crystal. This watch wears as if it were 10mm or slimmer.
> 
> If it comes under scrutiny, for say, the price, it's NOT because I've priced it unfairly but rather because people have trouble figuring out where the value comes from. I understand that only a few people have gotten to see this watch, but the pricing arguments are mind boggling (mostly) and generally come from people comparing downwards in price. The watch could easily stand with the Oris 65 and SMP. If you want a great watch to hate on, look no further than the new DOXAs, gorgeous reissues of a legendary name, fitted with the cheapest catalog clasp and a 2824 for almost $3000. I could make and sell that same watch for $800 or $900 and Doc's Devilray further proves that point-and it's got a nicer clasp.
> 
> In my experience as a microbrand owner I've discovered we're held to higher levels of scrutiny while larger brands get to pass off cheap components or cut corners while receiving praise, simply because they're a large trustworthy brand or whatever. Sure some have access to proprietary stuff, or have hugely reduced manufacturing and movement costs because almost all of them are owned by Swatch, but I think it's time to redirect some of the critical eye to the larger brands-since they're being used as a standard, they should be used accurately and honestly, which currently they get away with a lot of cheapness that no successful microbrand would ever be able to sling for long. I've worked on the Calamity for about 2 years now, about 1.5 years with Kyle. Other brands don't have something like this. Other brands come close with flat crystals and flat casebacks, but this pushes the envelope with thinness. If I maxed out the thinness scale on this, like I said, it'd be like 9mm thin and you know what? People would still find a reason to hate on it. There is so much to educate and learn about pricing, watches, the watch industry and manufacturing. But to learn you have to be receptive, so if you like a watch more than the Calamity, that's fine. But nobody really touches it in terms of actual (yall been discussing superficial thicknesses) thickness. Get me a 200m dive watch that's 9.5mm thick. I'll wait, but in 2 years you'll be seeing all your favorite brands slinging them and I'll just sit here and chuckle because Kyle and I did it first.


There you have it. Nick's the champ. I may have to step up my game to retake the belt.

I find it ironic that two guys from one of America's fattest cities are leading the way on case thinness.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

crappysurfer said:


> Get me a 200m dive watch that's 9.5mm thick. I'll wait, but in 2 years you'll be seeing all your favorite brands slinging them


Fair enough.. but what's to stop companies like borealis, skmei, alpha or whatever to make 9.5, 9.0 thin autodivers with 200/300m claimed wr and something like 30-50-100m actual wr? It's not like anyone tests these limits anyway, it's all taken on faith from the brand/seller. 50m wr should even be enough if someone goes swimming and light-diving.

Once we go into this "thickness/WR" ratio race, idk what's there to stop foul play. We already see this at places with companies straight up claiming smaller-than-actual thickness, or ignoring the crystal and stating case-only. Personally, I cannot tell 100, 200 or 300m WR from just holding a watch. Likewise, Oris65 is 100m, CW C65 is 150m. From having just held them, I cannot "feel" where that difference would come from, they feel about the same in person. With these 9.5mm miracles in 2 years time - who can say for sure that they will be what they claim?

Moreover, if we go to a place where "9.5mm thin with 200m WR" is a huge cost increase justifier - where's the incentive for any brand to actually do the 200m wr, if they can do 50-100m wr, claim 250, and do a 9.2mm thin watch that they can get more $$ for?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Meanwhile, at Janis HQ...Zwaardvis!!!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

winstoda said:


> I don't have a problem paying $1400 - I'd never pay that ballpark for something like a Monta (I don't get the Monta premium at all personally). But the 'bias' will kill me on resale. So I have to decide if I want to take a bath there or wait to take advantage of the bias at sometime in the future and buy second-hand.


Curious, why do you say that? It may be superficial, it's entirely possible that there's more difficult engineering work in the Calamity than the Oceanking, although Monta does have multiple patents on their bezel assembly, so it's not as if they're just throwing a collection of catalog parts together. On the surface though, I see little to no obvious difference between where Monta is and where brands like Tudor and Omega are, and the OK costs a fraction of what the divers from those brands cost. Things like the polished inner bevel on the lugs which is matched by the beveling on the edges of the bracelet, or the incredibly precise fit between the bracelet and the case, or the clasp, which _is_ better than the Calamity's. Sorry, but it's true. Show me a micro that's doing these sorts of fine details better than Monta is, because I haven't seen it.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm not really the "Orange" type but that looks pretty darn good :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Fair enough.. but what's to stop companies like borealis, skmei, alpha or whatever to make 9.5, 9.0 thin autodivers with 200/300m claimed wr and something like 30-50-100m actual wr? It's not like anyone tests these limits anyway, it's all taken on faith from the brand/seller. 50m wr should even be enough if someone goes swimming and light-diving.
> 
> Once we go into this "thickness/WR" ratio race, idk what's there to stop foul play. We already see this at places with companies straight up claiming smaller-than-actual thickness, or ignoring the crystal and stating case-only. Personally, I cannot tell 100, 200 or 300m WR from just holding a watch. Likewise, Oris65 is 100m, CW C65 is 150m. From having just held them, I cannot "feel" where that difference would come from, they feel about the same in person. With these 9.5mm miracles in 2 years time - who can say for sure that they will be what they claim?
> 
> Moreover, if we go to a place where "9.5mm thin with 200m WR" is a huge cost increase justifier - where's the incentive for any brand to actually do the 200m wr, if they can do 50-100m wr, claim 250, and do a 9.2mm thin watch that they can get more $$ for?


Uhm...yes?

Just to clarify, reputable brands, or more specifically, their factories, should be testing WR, at least up to the point where the WR ratings exceed the limits of what can be tested.

When we say a case is 300m or 500m rated, we're actually testing the cases pre-assembly, up to that limit, and post-assembly, we're testing at least up to 200m WR.

Before anyone does a spit-take, follow me on the logic.

If a case passes WR pressure testing pre-assembly, then we know it was made correctly. Post-assembly, we're mostly checking to make sure seals on crown and caseback are in place. If they're not, we're going to see them fail at less than 20 ATM of pressure. If they don't fail at less than 20 ATM, then they're in place, and we're good, because the case was already tested to 300m-500m at the case factory, before being sent for assembly.

Beyond 500m-600m, I think it becomes increasingly likely that the WR ratings are largely theoretical.

As for monkeying with WR to achieve more thinness, it's something I've wondered about, if not here, then somewhere. When we were working on the Subs, I was shooting for nice, round numbers people could understand. The goal was 300m WR and 11.0mm thickness. When we got to 11.5mm, and decided not to flatten the crystal, I wondered about lowering the WR, and what the number would end up being. Would 264m WR with 11mm thickness resonate as well? I didn't think it would.

People seem to like round or increments of 5 numbers. 11.0, 11.5, 300, 200, etc.

I'm not trying to break my arm patting myself on the back. We received a lot of kudos for making the Subs as thin as they are. I'm happy to see other people picking up the gauntlet, and paying attention to case design more.

I like that Phil Rodenbeck from Visitor is pushing at the edges of the envelope with his case designs, and others are lifting cool ideas like curved casebacks (Rusty and I did one on the Legends Racer back in 2014 - I'm not saying we started that trend, too, but...).

I'm not happy with the "not counting crystal or caseback" sort of games some are playing, but it's cool to see Nick, who is a friend, and a fellow Philadelphian, up the ante on case thinness with the Calamity. But he didn't just go for thin, he added other really thoughtful features. That's a solid design from a guy who hasn't been designing cases that long.

I thought he might just hang his hat on having the most monstrously large crowns, but once again, I was wrong.

...

Speaking of the Legends*, if y'all want to see how far Rusty's come in his 3D illustrations, hop into the WABAC machine, and visit our KS project from 2014 - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lewandhuey/the-legends-racer-from-lew-and-huey-inspired-by-le/

That project page has some of the first illustrations he ever sent me, from our first time working together.

(*Also the first square-cased micro-brand to do a windshield-curved crystal, maybe the first brand, period, but again, we're not trying to say we're way more awesome and ahead of the game than everyone else, and everyone is just lifting our ideas, *cough* lumed crowns *cough*...)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Curious, why do you say that? It may be superficial, it's entirely possible that there's more difficult engineering work in the Calamity than the Oceanking, although Monta does have multiple patents on their bezel assembly, so it's not as if they're just throwing a collection of catalog parts together. On the surface though, I see little to no obvious difference between where Monta is and where brands like Tudor and Omega are, and the OK costs a fraction of what the divers from those brands cost. Things like the polished inner bevel on the lugs which is matched by the beveling on the edges of the bracelet, or the incredibly precise fit between the bracelet and the case, or the clasp, which _is_ better than the Calamity's. Sorry, but it's true. Show me a micro that's doing these sorts of fine details better than Monta is, because I haven't seen it.


My general take on Monta - it looks like a nicely turned-out watch. There's a lot to like there.

Is it $1500 nicely turned-out?

I dunno. Ask people who like it enough to shell out $1500, undoubtedly, they'd say yes.

Ask people who don't like it enough to pay that for it, undoubtedly, the'd say no.

Clasp is nicer? Uhm...okay, say it is. How much more are you willing to pay for a nicer clasp?

Nicer finish? Okay, maybe, say it is. How much more are you willing to pay for a nicer finish?

Hypothetically, how much more are you willing to pay for a better movement?

The Monta is probably the closest comparison to the Calamity, in terms of specs and features and brand recognition. It's $235 more, and while its SW300 is a "clone" of the ETA 2892, after talking to many watchmakers and other brand owners, I'd put a higher value on the ETA than the Selitta.

It's 30 ATM, not 20 ATM, so, I'm guessing it's thicker (and no curved caseback) - is case thinness and comfort important? Important enough to place some value on them? Or, maybe you put a higher value on the higher WR? Many do, and I understand that, even if none of them actually go diving.

Again, you like the Monta more, so you see it as a better value than the Calamity. If someone likes the Calamity more, they'll see it as a better value than the Monta.

With all of these, the Monta, the Calamity, the CW Trident, there are no apples-to-apples comparisons to be made. As someone with an understanding of production costs, I'd say they're all pretty fairly priced for what you get, so why quibble over the price of any of them, or set up these pointless comparisons?

I mean, if we're going to compare the Calamity to the $700 CW Trident, do you want me to compare the Monta to the $649 Zoretto Jota, or the even less expensive Nodus Trieste? They all look very similar in design.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So I had to go and check out the Orion Calamity. Meh. I think the Monta is a more interesting design. The Chris Ward Trident CW I like enough to actually own one.

The immediate turnoff is no date function. While the 2892 is an attractor for a watch for me (as it’s in my Victorinox) and not too many brands using it, not providing a date function in a modern Diver especially at that price point is a No for me.

A Mido Ocean Star with a 2836 day and date has better value to me than all three of the aforementioned watches with a nice case proportion and a nice bracelet.

I like my Devil Ray, my Orthos, and my Spectre because they all have a date function.

If I’m looking at any watch near the $1000 price point it better be a Swiss 2824 or Sellita in a top grade or Chronometer rating with a date function, because I can’t justify paying that much for anything less. I can build that spec watch with parts sourced from the bay or other reputable parts suppliers online for around the $650 mark so for me to buy one for $1000 it’s likely for the Chronometer certification with the WR and 3-5 year warranty.

My 2- cents.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Clasp is nicer? Uhm...okay, say it is. How much more are you willing to pay for a nicer clasp?
> 
> Nicer finish? Okay, maybe, say it is. How much more are you willing to pay for a nicer finish?
> 
> ...


Me personally, nothing, because I don't wear bracelets, so I'd save the money and buy the version on the rubber strap. I have a hard time justifying over $2K on _any_ watch, even if it's finished like a Patek or Lange, but I'm willing to pay up to around that point. At some point in the future I'm considering either the gilt dial OK or the Tudor BB 58, and I'd only buy the Tudor used for $2K at the most. To me they look roughly the same, so I can't personally justify any more than that. Granted the Tudor's movement is in-house, but I don't really care about that sort of thing, and if anything the less expensive service cost on the Monta appeals to me more. Branding is a wash, I don't really care that the Tudor is referencing their 64 year history of making divers, whereas Monta has no history. What have you done for me lately.

It is indeed thicker, the 2018 V.2 is 40.7 x 11.9mm. For me, once a diver is under 12.5, I stop caring. That's plenty thin enough. The extra WR is nice, but I don't really care about that either. 5ATM makes me a bit nervous, but I'm perfectly happy with 10ATM and a screw down crown. I've never done anything more than snorkel.

At the end of the day though, you're right, I prefer Monta's design to Orion's. I think they nailed it....except for the white date wheel. I know they did it because they thought it better balanced with the lume at the big 12 o'clock marker and not to save a bit of money by being able to use the same date wheel on all color variants, but I never like the look of white date wheels on black dials. Fortunately sourcing a black date wheel for an ETA is pretty simple, as far as I know the 2824 and 2892 share date wheels, and I think it's the same part on the SW-200/300.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Curious, why do you say that? It may be superficial, it's entirely possible that there's more difficult engineering work in the Calamity than the Oceanking, although Monta does have multiple patents on their bezel assembly, so it's not as if they're just throwing a collection of catalog parts together. On the surface though, I see little to no obvious difference between where Monta is and where brands like Tudor and Omega are, and the OK costs a fraction of what the divers from those brands cost. Things like the polished inner bevel on the lugs which is matched by the beveling on the edges of the bracelet, or the incredibly precise fit between the bracelet and the case, or the clasp, which _is_ better than the Calamity's. Sorry, but it's true. Show me a micro that's doing these sorts of fine details better than Monta is, because I haven't seen it.


I'm hardly an expert when it comes to Monta - you know better than me owning one. Their original pricing turned me off which probably is partly responsible for my 'bias'. I agree with Doc's points as well. And I see on the sales forum that they have disappointing resale prospects, which again seems to to validate my thought that they're overpriced for what they are. It's cool that people who buy them enjoy them... just not for me.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> When we say a case is 300m or 500m rated, we're actually testing the cases pre-assembly, up to that limit, and post-assembly, we're testing at least up to 200m WR.


I didn't know you actually pressure tested every watch. That's awesome!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

applejosh said:


> I didn't know you actually pressure tested every watch. That's awesome!


I may need to sit down and make a list of all the things people seem surprised to hear when I say them. Apparently I'm not doing a very good job explaining the value of what we're selling.

Yes, every case is pressure tested, pre- and post-assembly.

Yes, every movement is adjusted/regulated to run well within spec before we ship the watch.

Yes, I'm even better looking and more charming in person.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Meanwhile, on Facebook...









That comment looked way cooler in Dutch...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

winstoda said:


> I'm hardly an expert when it comes to Monta - you know better than me owning one. Their original pricing turned me off which probably is partly responsible for my 'bias'. I agree with Doc's points as well. And I see on the sales forum that they have disappointing resale prospects, which again seems to to validate my thought that they're overpriced for what they are. It's cool that people who buy them enjoy them... just not for me.


That makes sense. With the original OK, Monta put the Eterna 3909A movement in there (which was supposedly not that reliable in addition to being vastly more expensive than the Sellita they use now) and they also wanted to sell through a small dealer network, and priced the watch accordingly. They bit off a bit more than they could chew, and recognized that. The price was later cut substantially - and where Monta really earned my respect is that they refunded people who put up the initial $3500 asking price the difference. They absolutely didn't have to do that, but they did anyway.

Original OKs are pretty rare on the used market, and the asking prices reflect the price cut. The newer Triumph on the other hand there are many more examples of, and based on what I'm seeing, the depreciation is almost nill. You can get a new one for $1375 on rubber, or $1550 on the bracelet. I'm seeing half a dozen or so for sale recently, with asking prices of around $1300-1400 on the bracelet. That's not exactly what I would call "disappointing" resale. Compare that to a Black Bay, which is $3500 or so new, $2000 used for an ETA version, or a little more for the newer in-house. That's a big bite. If I do end up buying the new OK, I'm not remotely worried about it losing money. So far the only micro I've owned that's ever done poorly on the used market was my Lum-tec quartz chrono, which lost about 50% over new. My Borealis, NTH, Visitor, and Evant all held 80-100% of what I paid for them.

That's one of the huge advantages to buying micros (most of the time). People think they're going to lose out vs. a big brand, but it's actually the opposite, micros lose FAR less, unless you're talking about Rolex.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> The newer Triumph on the other hand there are many more examples of, and based on what I'm seeing, the depreciation is almost nill. You can get a new one for $1375 on rubber, or $1550 on the bracelet. I'm seeing half a dozen or so for sale recently, with asking prices of around $1300-1400 on the bracelet. That's not exactly what I would call "disappointing" resale.


I'm not doubting you but I keep seeing a blue Triumph with bracelet on the sales board.... pages and pages of bumps and reductions. Maybe outside the norm... I've been collecting for about 8 years now I guess and have bought about two thirds of my stash on WUS vs. new and sell many pieces a year... serial flipper for sure. Maybe I should buy low and give them a shot...


----------



## sobwanhoser (Feb 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> I wondered about lowering the WR, and what the number would end up being. Would 264m WR with 11mm thickness resonate as well? I didn't think it would.
> 
> People seem to like round or increments of 5 numbers. 11.0, 11.5, 300, 200, etc. )


I might be the only one here who'd dig a 264m watch with that printed on the dial....but for a watch goof like me, it would be too cool that the design process factored in all these actual details into a watch - I'd like the fact the number is correct, not rounded or exactly 200m etc b-)


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

winstoda said:


> I'm not doubting you but I keep seeing a blue Triumph with bracelet on the sales board.... pages and pages of bumps and reductions. Maybe outside the norm... I've been collecting for about 8 years now I guess and have bought about two thirds of my stash on WUS vs. new and sell many pieces a year... serial flipper for sure. Maybe I should buy low and give them a shot...


It's quite nice as far as field watches go; the sunburst brushing on the bezel is a cool touch. There is one that went up a few days back for $850 sans bracelet, so if you don't care about that, it's a good price.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sobwanhoser said:


> I might be the only one here who'd dig a 264m watch with that printed on the dial....but for a watch goof like me, it would be too cool that the design process factored in all these actual details into a watch - I'd like the fact the number is correct, not rounded or exactly 200m etc b-)


Perhaps. I kind of dig the old "Devil Diver" depth ratings of 666 feet (203m).

Most modern watches' depth ratings are conservative. The NTH Subs are good to AT LEAST 300m, not 300m exactly. But who's going to put 324m on the dial (or whatever the number is)?

I know for me, a lot of my decisions are geared to not generate lots of questions I'll have to answer until my head explodes.

"Why did you make it 324m WR? Why not just 300m, or 325, or 350?"

Kill me now.

Going the other way, if we forced the issue with the factory to give us the thinnest dimensions which could meet 300m WR exactly on the nose, would we be able to shave 0.21mm out of case thickness? If we did, aren't we just going to have people rounding up to the next 0.5mm anyway?

Would anyone care about a 300m WR diving watch that was only 11.29mm thin more than they care about it if it's only 11.5mm thin?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Would anyone care about a 300m WR diving watch that was only 11.29mm thin more than they care about it if it's only 11.5mm thin?


Heh. Where was that thread about diminishing returns? ^^

(Personally, - exactly as you say. Past some arbitrary point - let's say below 12 mm, maybe around 11.5 - watches are "thin enough" for me, for now, and a few decimals of a mm here or there are not that important. As an example.. NTH sub is 11.5, CW C65d is 11.55. To me that difference is completely negligible and irrelevant. Both are thin enough and nice enough. More to the point, Nomos Club is around 8.8mm, and, sure, it feels really thin - but it doesn't feel much thinner than an nth sub all in all, because both are in that mental box labelled "thin watch". Contrast to S. SBDC053, which is, what, around 13.5 or so? That one does not feel thin anymore, it just feels "alright" and could benefit from being thinner still. So the magic point is somewhere slightly above 11.5, where things become "thin").


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Perhaps. I kind of dig the old "Devil Diver" depth ratings of 666 feet (203m).
> 
> Most modern watches' depth ratings are conservative. The NTH Subs are good to AT LEAST 300m, not 300m exactly. But who's going to put 324m on the dial (or whatever the number is)?


I think there's a general expectation that there's a safety buffer in there, sort of like when a car's trip computer reads "0 miles" left on fuel, there's still really at least a half gallon in there or so. I can see the WIS that has the watch pressure tested and it fails at 299m. Probably smarter to leave in the extra room, and sacrifice a tenth of a mm or two.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Totally off topic but mostly hang here this just came










And yes as a chrono it is mad thick


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Heh. Where was that thread about diminishing returns? ^^
> 
> (Personally, - exactly as you say. Past some arbitrary point - let's say below 12 mm, maybe around 11.5 - watches are "thin enough" for me, for now, and a few decimals of a mm here or there are not that important. As an example.. NTH sub is 11.5, CW C65d is 11.55. To me that difference is completely negligible and irrelevant. Both are thin enough and nice enough. More to the point, Nomos Club is around 8.8mm, and, sure, it feels really thin - but it doesn't feel much thinner than an nth sub all in all, because both are in that mental box labelled "thin watch". Contrast to S. SBDC053, which is, what, around 13.5 or so? That one does not feel thin anymore, it just feels "alright" and could benefit from being thinner still. So the magic point is somewhere slightly above 11.5, where things become "thin").


I'm sure all that's true/right. What I was thinking of was more about the "stickiness" of some numbers. If I tell you all a watch is 11.5mm thick and 300m WR, that's easier to remember and process than 11.32mm thick and 264m WR.

Maybe, I think. I don't know. This is a weird discussion.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Looks like Silver Watch Company is trying to get into the thin case wars too... From their Facebook post...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Looks like Silver Watch Company is trying to get into the thin case wars too... From their Facebook post...
> 
> View attachment 13280029


Best of luck to him in his business. He's entering a crowded field with another 39mm/40mm MilSub homage.


----------



## OhDark30 (Oct 2, 2012)

docvail said:


> I was thinking of was more about the "stickiness" of some numbers. If I tell you all a watch is 11.5mm thick and 300m WR, that's easier to remember and process than 11.32mm thick and 264m WR.


Oh totally
I was quite shocked to discover, on buying Russian camera lenses at certain 'precise' sizes, eg 55mm, that Western lenses tended to be rounded up/down to hit the familiar numbers - 35, 50, 80mm - and weren't neatly where I'd expected from what the label said









On watches
I liked 'odd' numbers, even when it was just a conversion factor from metres - maybe just me


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

There's even another new sub on the way:









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Ragl said:


> There's even another new sub on the way:
> 
> View attachment 13280181
> 
> ...


Saw this one today as well. Never heard of those guys till now. The fact that they're in Baltimore City intrigues me.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

winstoda said:


> Saw this one today as well. Never heard of those guys till now. The fact that they're in Baltimore City intrigues me.


Alan Tsao had a successful KS campaign last year and this will be his second watch. It is indeed getting quite crowded out there.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ten-Ten (Feb 6, 2014)

docvail said:


> I may need to sit down and make a list of all the things people seem surprised to hear when I say them. Apparently I'm not doing a very good job explaining the value of what we're selling.
> 
> Yes, every case is pressure tested, pre- and post-assembly.
> 
> ...


I've met Chris and spent a little time speaking with him. I can assure you that that last statement is <<redacted>>.

edit: Hmmmm. I wonder why that happened.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

winstoda said:


> Looks like Silver Watch Company is trying to get into the thin case wars too... From their Facebook post...


Who? They sure don't seem to want people to know that they exist.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Who? They sure don't seem to want people to know that they exist.


Agreed... came across them on the coming releases thread. They don't seem to be up and running quite yet.


----------



## sriracha (May 2, 2014)

docvail said:


> Best of luck to him in his business. He's entering a crowded field with another 39mm/40mm MilSub homage.


Looks like he's trying to do a one to one of the original milsub. Not too crowded a market for well built and affordable ones of those. Only Steinhart's OVM. Or modded Invictas. Lol.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

When I bought the näcken Vintage blue, i was convinced by the 300m WR (not only,but in most parts). Why is that? I don’t dive. I seldom swim. Hell, i am not even Desk Diving. 

For me, it was convincing, that someone put some thought into developing and engineering a case to max out the WR as a means of engineering power. To my amateur sense of understanding value and combining it with an aesthetically pleasing design, there was the perfect mix. For the same reason I went for the zelos dmt with a WR of 500. it’s not about the actual depth rating. It’s about the knowledge that someone put an effort in it. 

I have a diver65 too - it’s a gorgeous watch - and it has the most comfortable metal bracelet I have ever worn. It tapers from 20 to 16 mm and has a nice opening mechanism. Doc is certainly right with his statement regarding perceived value. I’d say, I’d pay 1200-1500 for the Oris. I was lucky to have shot it for a ridiculously lower price - so I take a look at it, and always think, what a obnoxious bargain I made. I don’t know how much one pays for the „Oris“ Name. 

But doc is working hard to make NtH a brand for itself, that is pretty awesome - here in Germany the second hand prices are quite low, I think they will go up a little in the future, when the brand will be more widely known. Partially this may be effective through the European importer. 

Speaking of which, have you ever been in contact with the for a sec guy, Stephan? He stocks Halios, seals, stuckx and tempest.... 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> When I bought the näcken Vintage blue, i was convinced by the 300m WR (not only,but in most parts). Why is that? I don't dive. I seldom swim. Hell, i am not even Desk Diving.
> 
> For me, it was convincing, that someone put some thought into developing and engineering a case to max out the WR as a means of engineering power. To my amateur sense of understanding value and combining it with an aesthetically pleasing design, there was the perfect mix. For the same reason I went for the zelos dmt with a WR of 500. it's not about the actual depth rating. It's about the knowledge that someone put an effort in it.
> 
> ...


I know Stephan well. But I don't need two ADs in the Netherlands.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I know Stephan well. But I don't need two ADs in the Netherlands.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Here's a pic of me hanging with Suj, Chip, Tempest Ben, and Stephan in Hong Kong. Jason from Halios joined us not long after this pic was taken.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

sriracha said:


> Looks like he's trying to do a one to one of the original milsub. Not too crowded a market for well built and affordable ones of those. Only Steinhart's OVM. Or modded Invictas. Lol.


Say what?

MKII (Fulcrum), Kiger, Ginault, OWC 5517, Squale (Militaire), Armida A9, Tiger Concepts, Aramar Artic Patrol, Alpha Milsub, modded Gigandet, etc.

Supposedly 462 milsub homages on Pinterest:
https://www.pinterest.com/mgehlers/milsub-homages/


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Say what?
> 
> MKII (Fulcrum), Ginault, OWC 5517, Squale (Militaire), Armida A9, Aramar Artic Patrol, modded Gigandet, etc.
> 
> ...


I think he's trying to poke the bear.

Whatevs.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I kind of have to wonder about why you would want to jump into the Sub homage game at this stage. I get that it's the most famous diver ever, but it's also the most _copied_ diver ever, and there's already a broad spectrum from Invicta and Parnis at the bottom to MKIIs which cost as much as actual used Tudor Black Bays. Why not do a modern take on something like this instead, instead of trying to find a tiny slice between the umpteen existing Sub homages?


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I kind of have to wonder about why you would want to jump into the Sub homage game at this stage. I get that it's the most famous diver ever, but it's also the most _copied_ diver ever, and there's already a broad spectrum from Invicta and Parnis at the bottom to MKIIs which cost as much as actual used Tudor Black Bays. Why not do a modern take on something like this instead, instead of trying to find a tiny slice between the umpteen existing Sub homages?


Well, in the specific case of Silver it seems to be to honor his grandfather's watch. From what I gathered from their website anyway. But I agree.


----------



## sriracha (May 2, 2014)

yankeexpress said:


> Say what?
> 
> MKII (Fulcrum), Kiger, Ginault, OWC 5517, Squale (Militaire), Armida A9, Tiger Concepts, Aramar Artic Patrol, Alpha Milsub, modded Gigandet, etc.
> 
> ...


Compare all of those to the Rollie and then we'll talk 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

sriracha said:


> Compare all of those to the Rollie and then we'll talk


Compare all those Combined to the auction price of a decent 5517. Done talking.


----------



## sriracha (May 2, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

You don't have to buy a 5517 (insert eye roll here). Just google pics and do side by sides. Any keen eye can see the differences.

Doc did a cool milsub NTH but it was his interpretation of the milsub like the others as well. But Silver's trying to do a one to one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Love the comfort of the Nazario. Lightweight, thin, great bracelet. I have high end watches but with Doc making watches like the Naz and the Devilray for a fraction of what I paid for my higher end watches it makes me think, why would I do that again? 

I’m not a wealthy man but buying another NTH sub isn’t a problem. I really want a vintage Nacken blue and will probably get one at some point. Unfortunately at 10 watches I’m already at the point where some watches just sit in my safe. I’m just hoping Doc’s future designs suck so I won’t be tempted. But I doubt it.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> Looking at the NTH Subs case diagram, and pics of the Orion...
> 
> Fun fact - the Subs' crystal opening is 29mm, 1mm wider than the 28mm dial opening, which gives the inner case wall between the crystal and the dial a very slight inward slope, and enhances the perception of depth.
> 
> ...


I love sloped walls between the crystal and dial, it gives that extra width there that you see with vintage watches where the acrylic would flare out to snap in.

If you look at a TC 5513v2 case, it's a pretty drastic flare out. But it let's you use a Sapphire and get that look that's otherwise only possible with acrylics.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> Curious, why do you say that? It may be superficial, it's entirely possible that there's more difficult engineering work in the Calamity than the Oceanking, although Monta does have multiple patents on their bezel assembly, so it's not as if they're just throwing a collection of catalog parts together. On the surface though, I see little to no obvious difference between where Monta is and where brands like Tudor and Omega are, and the OK costs a fraction of what the divers from those brands cost. Things like the polished inner bevel on the lugs which is matched by the beveling on the edges of the bracelet, or the incredibly precise fit between the bracelet and the case, or the clasp, which _is_ better than the Calamity's. Sorry, but it's true. Show me a micro that's doing these sorts of fine details better than Monta is, because I haven't seen it.


This sounds like a bunch of the 'i like it so here's my justification for the price' stuff that doc was talking about ... Lol, I'm just teasing you, but it's probably a bit true.

I personally think the calamity just looks so much cooler so I'd probably try to sling some justification for it's cost.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Agreed, I can't get past my bias of them charging 3k for that first run. Trying the big brand strategy of selling prestige when you have none was such a turn off that my view of the brand will forever be tainted by it.

Plus I'm more visually attracted to watches than I am by the spec sheet and the ok just is boring to me. The matte Gilt dial and glossy insert clash, the stubby hands are way too short and of course, the date wheel.


winstoda said:


> I'm hardly an expert when it comes to Monta - you know better than me owning one. Their original pricing turned me off which probably is partly responsible for my 'bias'. I agree with Doc's points as well. And I see on the sales forum that they have disappointing resale prospects, which again seems to to validate my thought that they're overpriced for what they are. It's cool that people who buy them enjoy them... just not for me.


Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Just signed up for LTD Ed wow it’s going to be awesome


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> There's even another new sub on the way:
> 
> View attachment 13280181
> 
> ...


He's shown a side profile on FB. Looks like a Bremont homage, at least in the case design.









Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

As for Silver's MilSub...my point was that it's a crowded field of 39mm-42mm MilSub-inspired divers, generally. It seems like there would have been a few which nailed the looks precisely by this point, whereas the rest would have arguably improved on the design in some way, at least in the eyes of those who like one better than the other.

If that's wrong, and no one has really nailed it in a 1:1 reproduction sort of way, then maybe there's still a segment of the market crying out for something like that. It just seems to me that the market's been pretty well sliced and diced by now, so I wonder how large a segment it is. 

I guess we'll see, and I wish him the best of luck.


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

winstoda said:


> Looks like Silver Watch Company is trying to get into the thin case wars too... From their Facebook post...


I tried googling for them and found zilch. I'll stick with waiting for doc's fall round of sub releases, maybe the Nazario or something similar will pop up...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> He's shown a side profile on FB. Looks like a Bremont homage, at least in the case design.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed, just like his first watch which sported Bremont "Triple-Tickle" lugs, they do look shapely and distinctive, but it is just a wee bit too blatant for me....

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> I tried googling for them and found zilch. I'll stick with waiting for doc's fall round of sub releases, maybe the Nazario or something similar will pop up...


Yeah, if they're going to really produce that watch at some point they probably want to look into improving their online profile. I only found the website via their instagram which I only happened upon from seeing another post in F71. Not exactly 'out there' at this point.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Just an odd placement of the crown. I’m ok with the 3 o’clock, 9 o’clock destro or the 4:30 Seiko style. Never got the 12 or 6 and now 2:30? I guess you can put it mostly anywhere and all that is necessary is to arrange the date wheel so the numbers look proper in the window. Well the full reveal may be of interest but I’m already tapped out on a girl named Carolina. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Blanc de Bleu, I know, cheap gimmicky sparkling wine. Celebrating 18 years with the wife.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Congrats!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

skunkworks said:


> This sounds like a bunch of the 'i like it so here's my justification for the price' stuff that doc was talking about ... Lol, I'm just teasing you, but it's probably a bit true.
> 
> I personally think the calamity just looks so much cooler so I'd probably try to sling some justification for it's cost.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


Fair. I think the Calamity has an interesting case, but I find the dial and handset to be dull as dishwater, and I actively dislike the wedge second hand. The gloss dial on the OK is probably the better of the two on the bracelet, but with black leather which is how I would wear it, I think I'd like the gilt dial more. There are unfortunately no pictures of it that way, but this is at least close. I wouldn't mind if the hands were a bit longer, but I think they're ok, not like say a '90s Bond SMP with its WAY too short handset. The Sinn 556 is similar, and I think it's workable.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Took this a few days ago while enjoying a rainy afternoon on the back porch. Still all day every day with this handsome Devil.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Dup deleted.


----------



## guspech750 (Dec 15, 2013)

docvail said:


> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Just wondering if you've considered using the Miyota 9100 in any of your designs?

Sent from the White House on the tax payers dime.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

guspech750 said:


> Just wondering if you've considered using the Miyota 9100 in any of your designs?
> 
> Sent from the White House on the tax payers dime.


Full calendar with PR?

Not really something I'd do.










Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Sogeha (Jul 13, 2015)

Ratfacedgit said:


> Blanc de Bleu, I know, cheap gimmicky sparkling wine. Celebrating 18 years with the wife.


Congratulations

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ratfacedgit said:


> Blanc de Bleu, I know, cheap gimmicky sparkling wine. Celebrating 18 years with the wife.


Congrats, RatFace.

Never thought I'd put those words together in a sentence...

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Relo60 (Jun 14, 2015)

Checking in.

:-! Sunday


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Nikita70 said:


> I'm just hoping Doc's future designs suck so I won't be tempted. But I doubt it.


You and me, both. I keep fussing at him to design something ugly so I can actually get paid in cash instead of watches. So far, I've struck out.

But I've got a nice collection. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Really enjoying the sunshine and the heatwave!!! I just had to pull out my most Summer-y watch........










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> Really enjoying the sunshine and the heatwave!!! I just had to pull out my most Summer-y watch........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks great! I guess great minds think alike  I've been sporting my blessings orange orthos yesterday and today!
And here is an obligatory pic









Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> You know, nowadays I can't finish the day without reading a wall of text. And now my day is done.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Last night I had a dream I had to go back and re-read all my own posts.

It was embarrassing.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> Rhorya said:
> 
> 
> > You know, nowadays I can't finish the day without reading a wall of text. And now my day is done.
> ...


Dream or nightmare?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I think if I gave fewer f**ks I could avoid a lot of the stupid arguments, and fewer arguments = fewer walls of text.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

I’m not going to say I enjoy every wall of text, but I usually find them instructive or, at the very least, entertaining. I don’t mind them in any incarnation.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

applejosh said:


> I'm not going to say I enjoy every wall of text, but I usually find them instructive or, at the very least, entertaining. I don't mind them in any incarnation.


Sometimes, I'm trying to be entertaining, which I think my dad would say is just showing off. I used to enjoy making someone who was deliberately being a jerk look stupid. Now it feels like a chore. They've sucked the fun out of it.

I distinctly recall a time, early in my business, when I felt like I *HAD* to respond when I saw people making what I viewed as outrageous statements. The more time has worn on, the less I really feel that way.

Those statements don't inspire as much outrage now, I don't feel like my business interests are jeopardized much by them, and I have to admit that even if I "win" an argument, the same argument will only arise time and time again as more noobs enter the hobby.

There are only so many times I can "prove" what WR ratings really mean, that "Swiss Made" could be 100% parts made in China, with very little done/made/assembled in Switzerland, that micro-brands aren't intrinsically more risky than big brands, that big brands' service is actually worse, that long-term serviceability is a non-issue, that fit-and-finish is a red herring, that people buy what they like and rationalize it with illogical nonsense, etc, etc, etc.

That basically leaves the long-explanations to people who press me on any topic, like "why won't you make a chrono", and who seem unwilling to accept the short explanations, plus the "accidental" wall of text - I swear to God, sometimes I don't realize how much I've typed until I hit "reply".

I can't spend the rest of my life being a one-man destroyer of internet BS. That's pretty much what most of the internet is - BS. I'm trying to ignore it as much as I can.

The first time I met Steve Laughlin from Raven was when that whole Benarus-is-now-Stevral thing was playing out. The conversation got around to responding to people on the internet, and Steve said something like, "I don't even look at it most of the time, any more. I just let the internet figure itself out."

It didn't make sense to me at the time. How do you NOT look at what people are saying on the internet, and not respond? Won't that be disastrous?

Lately I'm just trying to remember I can't fix stupid. If someone is or wants to be stupid, or a jerk, more often than not, I figure I'll let them be stupid or a jerk.


----------



## carlitoswhey (Jun 26, 2017)

docvail said:


> &#8230;&#8230;. Steve said something like, "I don't even look at it most of the time, any more. I just let the internet figure itself out."
> &#8230;...


This is deep wisdom. I'm going to borrow this for my meditation students. The freaking Dalai Lama could have said something like this.

Otherwise, you end up all...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Heads up to anyone that missed out: There is another no date Nacken Renegade available Näcken - Renegade


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Heads up to anyone that missed out: There is another no date Nacken Renegade available Näcken - Renegade


Serious has them all available with the exception of the Barracuda no date. Will save you a few shekels too if shipping to the US...


----------



## Ten-Ten (Feb 6, 2014)

docvail said:


> I think if I gave fewer f**ks I could avoid a lot of............


Giving fewer f**ks just happens to be my New (fiscal)Year's resolution. 
(Not a fiscal resolution, a resolution that starts July1.)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Heads up to anyone that missed out: There is another no date Nacken Renegade available Näcken - Renegade


Two, actually.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Sometimes people ask what I do when I'm not doing this.

Among other ways to kill time, I like playing Forza 6. I spend a good bit of time creating custom paint jobs for my cars. These are a few of my custom designs.

If you have Forza 6, you may see more of my work by searching for designs by creator and looking for "docvail". I'm not sure it'll work, because I just tried to search for me, but didn't see any of my shared designs, even though I know some others have downloaded them.

The VW Beetle, the Nissan Skyline, and the Toyota Celica seen here are among my favorite cars I own. They've all been upgraded with race engines, race suspensions, and all wheel drive, and absolutely shred. My dad actually had an early '70's Celica in that same shade of blue. I can actually remember him trying to wrestle the radiator out of it one Saturday afternoon.

The VW has a carbon-fiber matte black paint job with ghost flames and the number 53 overlayed on an inverted star number plaque. I call it "Herbie's Revenge".










Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Sometimes people ask what I do when I'm not doing this.
> 
> Among other ways to kill time, I like playing Forza 6. I spend a good bit of time creating custom paint jobs for my cars. These are a few of my custom designs.
> 
> ...


It's really easy to spend a TON of time in the design editor. I did mostly Group B rally car liveries, but I did some originals as well. I don't have any pics, but feel free to search my gamertag (Same as my WUS name) if you're interested.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

docvail said:


> There are only so many times I can "prove" what WR ratings really mean, that "Swiss Made" could be 100% parts made in China, with very little done/made/assembled in Switzerland, that micro-brands aren't intrinsically more risky than big brands, that big brands' service is actually worse, that long-term serviceability is a non-issue, that fit-and-finish is a red herring, that people buy what they like and rationalize it with illogical nonsense, etc, etc, etc.


Did you ever collect those in an FAQ to link to? For those who are not too stupid to be open to arguments.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Very cool indeed. You are a mere mortal after all hahah.

I was a big gamer a few years ago. XBox mostly with a LOT of MMO's mostly WoW and an obscure game years ago called Ragnarok. I still from time to time whip out the old Rock Band and force the family to play with me but that is mostly a party thing now a days.



docvail said:


> Sometimes people ask what I do when I'm not doing this.
> 
> Among other ways to kill time, I like playing Forza 6. I spend a good bit of time creating custom paint jobs for my cars. These are a few of my custom designs.
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nuru said:


> Did you ever collect those in an FAQ to link to? For those who are not too stupid to be open to arguments.


A WOTFAQs?

Brilliant!

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## carlitoswhey (Jun 26, 2017)

A friend's blog had a link to "***" - frequently unasked questions.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> It's really easy to spend a TON of time in the design editor. I did mostly Group B rally car liveries, but I did some originals as well. I don't have any pics, but feel free to search my gamertag (Same as my WUS name) if you're interested.
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


After posting last night, I realized that in order to see anyone else's designs, you have to search for that person's user name while "in" that specific car. So, if you get into any of the cars above, and search my name, you can download my designs and use them, but if you're in any car for which I haven't published a design, your search won't return jack squat.

I have no idea how many designs I've published. I own over 200 cars in the game, but I might have created one-off liveries for a dozen, if that.

It's the same for tuning packages. I've published maybe a dozen, but when you own 200 cars, it could take hours to publish them all, so I've only bothered with the ones that are over-the-top, like the ones that take a '74 Celica, '63 VW Bug, or '69 Skyline and turn them into Porsche-eaters.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Is that a Feeyoomey livery on that Skyline?

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Is that a Feeyoomey livery on that Skyline?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


It's pronounced "fyuoummyeay", but not if you're a native English speaker, because you can't pronounce it correctly anyway.

And no, it isn't.

It's a zvhahrdfhisths livery.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> It's pronounced "fyuoummyeay", but not if you're a native English speaker, because you can't pronounce it correctly anyway.
> 
> And no, it isn't.
> 
> It's a zvhahrdfhisths livery.


Is this all going into WOTFAQ too?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Is this all going into WOTFAQ too?


Don't make me do it.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Ragl said:


> Is this all going into WOTFAQ too?


WhOThFhwAhQh.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

If watchgauge's youtube channel is to be believed, they are doing a sale on a lot of "Lew&Huey" watches at like 20% off.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> If watchgauge's youtube channel is to be believed, they are doing a sale on a lot of "Lew&Huey" watches at like 20% off.


Yes, we all move on to the next best thing, flip, rinse & repeat, but the Orthos range will always be a totally viable style statement, I really can't believe that there are still some available. These are utter bargains now, that's a boatload of stylish attitude and quality for the money, which, for me is tight at the mo' - I can hear that margin-call from the bank now.......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

Sorry for digging up such old content, but I was wondering:



docvail said:


> 2. When it comes to the assembly of the movements (as opposed to the entire watch), I look at the defect rates I've experienced firsthand, and anecdotal reports from my peers, suppliers, and other watchmakers, as indicators of how "reliable" or "good" the assembly work is.
> 
> I've bought 250 Chinese movements, parts made in China, assembly done in China and the defect rate was atrocious, so high I can't really effectively calculate it. My best estimate is somewhere between 30% and 50%. The problems were endless. Chinese factories have told me straight out they don't like using Chinese movements. That should tell us something.


You were saying elsewhere that Chinese chrono movements had terrible reliability. Were those the ones in question? In that case, I guess it would be difficult to compare them to non-chrono movements? If all movements were similar (e.g. three hand + date) this is quite shocking though.

Also, I was wondering why there seems to be a lot of watch production/assembly in Hong Kong. Isn't that a fairly expensive region compared to some parts of Mainland China?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Shocking? It's kinda inline with what I had thought prior to doc's discussions on failure rates etc. There's a reason why there is so much bad word-of-mouth about seagull movements and other no-name clones in parnises.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> If watchgauge's youtube channel is to be believed, they are doing a sale on a lot of "Lew&Huey" watches at like 20% off.


They are to be believed, but it's just 20% off on the last few pieces of the Orthos, not all L&H watches.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> They are to be believed, but it's just 20% off on the last few pieces of the Orthos, not all L&H watches.


Their Spectre in stock is 20% off as well.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



nuru said:


> Sorry for digging up such old content, but I was wondering:
> 
> You were saying elsewhere that Chinese chrono movements had terrible reliability. Were those the ones in question? In that case, I guess it would be difficult to compare them to non-chrono movements? If all movements were similar (e.g. three hand + date) this is quite shocking though.
> 
> Also, I was wondering why there seems to be a lot of watch production/assembly in Hong Kong. Isn't that a fairly expensive region compared to some parts of Mainland China?


No apologies necessary.

Yes, the post you quoted mentions the same caliber, the ST1940 (automatic version of the ST1901), from Seagull.

Comparing them to other Chinese non-chrono movements? I mean, chronos are more complicated, generally, and so we might assume we'd see more problems with ANY chrono as compared to ANY 3-hand movement, but making real apples-to-apples sorts of comparisons would be difficult.

I'm not sure if that's exactly what you mean, i.e., if the defect rate in the ST1940 was 30%-50%, is that what we'd expect with the Chinese 3-hand movements, or, if the rates of the Chinese chrono defects compared to non-Chinese chrono defects are proportional to the defect rates of Chinese 3-handers compared to non-Chinese 3-handers?

It's probably easiest if I just give you my personal experience and observation, as well as what I've been made to understand from others in the industry.

I personally found the defect rates with the ST19 were atrocious. I used the ST1940, but I've heard similar reports from others who used the hand-wind versions, so I don't think it matters.

I've heard reports that other Chinese movements, not chronos, also have higher than acceptable defect rates, though I've not been given numbers.

I know from experience that the Chinese factories I've spoken to will warn you against using Chinese movements. They're adamant about it. They don't want to deal with the defect rate in the movements when they're responsible for delivering the assembled watches.

My old factory allowed that the Sea-gull ST36 (hand-winding Unitas clone) and ST21 (ETA 2824 clone) were "okay". I don't know if that is also true of the Sea-Gull clone of the 2892. I didn't ask.

Even in those cases, though, I'd expect the defect rates to be higher than they are in the Swiss counterparts, and I'd expect the defect rates in Japanese movements to be lower than all of them.

The issues are many. Understand, I personally am not a watchmaker, so my ability to understand and explain the issues is limited.

I've been made to understand that there are processes used to harden or strengthen certain metal components of the movement, things which may not be done enough or correctly with some Chinese parts, and it may be impossible to tell just by looking at them whether or not they've been properly treated.

There are other issues we've seen, but only after tearing a movement down and inspecting parts at high magnification, where we'll see a cracked or chipped jewel, a stray fiber, etc.

That said, it is quite common to see many lubrication-related issues, and those are easy to spot when you dig into the movement. We've found and heard about over- and under-lubrication, and gunked up lubrication. We've even seen rust inside a movement - a NEW movement.

I had a recent conversation with a watchmaker about it. I wasn't able to catch the specific terms or all the details, but my understanding was that there was some substance or additive which was briefly introduced into watchmaking some years past, possibly with the intent of improving movement operation. But it was quickly recognized as being counter-productive, and its widespread use was stopped, however the Chinese may not have gotten the message. It apparently had the effect of thickening the lubricants, and indeed, we've seen instances of movements with surprisingly thick lubrication.

...

As for Hong Kong - there's really nothing being made or assembled in Hong Kong, from what I've seen. The OEM's main offices are often there, but those are really just offices, where they handle sales, design, and oversight of other functions.

Most of them also maintain offices on the mainland, where they do component sourcing and QC. All of the components are made by specialty vendors on the mainland, and very often, the assembly is also performed by contract employees.

I was just there in May, with the specific intent of seeing the operation and processes from one end to the other, and seeing the production of as many components as I could. It was a valuable learning experience, and one of the big takeaways had to do with how different the process is from what we in the west would likely expect.

...

My OEM's main office is in HK, but there isn't much to it. They handle communications with brands like mine, design support, engineering, and coordinate/oversee all aspects of everything else that goes into making the product, which means a lot of phone calls and emails with outside vendors.

Aside from the trays of watches and samples lying around, they could literally be doing anything there, and it wouldn't look any different. It's desks, computers, printers and phones, that's it.

They also maintain an office on the mainland, in Shenzhen. That office has about 6-10 people, mostly engaged in component sourcing, QC, testing and repair. They also house all the spare parts they've had made, above and beyond what brands like mine order, so that they can use them as samples, or to do repairs later on, address QC failures, etc.

Within that office, every component which comes in from their suppliers gets QC'd prior to assembly. Every movement gets tested for basic operation. Cases get pressure-tested, crystals are confirmed as sapphire, bracelets get tension-tested, etc. All that happens pre-assembly.

So, it's also desks, computers, printers and phones, but it's also racks of parts, lots of testing machines and equipment, a big work table, etc.

Because all the component vendors are on the Mainland, it helps HK OEM's to have an office on the mainland, especially when it comes to doing factory site-visits in support of component sourcing and in-process quality checks.

It's insanely expensive to get a license for a car which will allow for travel back and forth between HK and the mainland, so having someone with a car on the mainland is a huge benefit. I think I was told the cross-border license for a car was something like one million dollars US.

Getting from HK to Shenzhen isn't far in distance, but it's a pain in the balls. We had to go through a legit border crossing, with all the rigmarole with passports and visas, etc. Once you're on the mainland, we then take a train further into Shenzhen, because it's so huge.

Once off the train, the guy from the Shenzhen office picks us up in his car, and it's another 20-30 minutes to their office. It could be another hour or more to visit the component suppliers' factories. Many of those factories are farther north, in Dongguan. When we were on the mainland, we'd spend the whole day there, and I mean, literally, it was 12-hour days for us most of that week I was there, 10 of those hours spent in Shenzhen and/or Dongguan.

My OEM's mainland office is one in a line of identical operations all housed next to each other on the same floor of that building. There were 6 or 8 of them, all competitor OEM's, all under one roof.

Across the hall is a series of rooms set up for what might best be called "shared services". Those rooms are staffed and operated by a separate company, which supports all the OEM companies with offices on the opposite side of the hall.

At one end, there's a large room which acts as a staging area for assembly. There are racks and racks of parts, and a window into the next room, where assembly happens. When the people in the staging area see that the assemblers are ready for more work, they gather together component "kits", and pass them through to the assemblers.

The assemblers put the kits together, then hand them off to the people in the next room, where they do some basic testing - pressure testing, basic operation, and I think, basic accuracy. Then, the watches go back across the hall to the OEM's office, where they do post-assembly QC, more pressure testing, regulation/adjustment, etc.

Once all the pieces are through QC, they go back across the hall once again, to the shared services side, to be packed up to be shipped to the OEM's office in Hong Kong.

Back in Hong Kong, they do one last round of QC, then ship to me, or, as it is now, directly to my watchmaker, and we do another round of QC and testing here.

Hopefully we don't need to "fix" much. Sometimes there's nothing to fix at all, but sometimes we'll find something less than 1% which need to be sorted out somehow, usually in some minor way, and often the issue is something which falls into a gray area of judgment calls - mostly minor deviations from "perfect", which have to be considered within the context of machined parts assembled by hand, or the risks/costs of making incremental improvements when we're already within the QC standards.

For instance, bezel insert alignments or hands alignments - 100% perfection in 100% of the pieces can't be the QC standard, at least not without a dramatic increase in costs and retail pricing.

Like I've said on this topic previously, our round of QC is the 5th or 6th round, depending on if or how you count the QC done by the components vendors themselves, and the effective QC which is happening as part of the assembly process. By that point, we shouldn't be finding many issues, and while there's no such thing as NOTHING ever slipping through, we should be catching most issues before customers receive a watch.

While I was in China, inspecting operations, I found a handful of transition points where problems can happen, and I'm working with my OEM to improve the process, in order to get us better results, meaning we'd find fewer issues in final QC, and better quality overall.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheJohnP said:


> Their Spectre in stock is 20% off as well.


My bad. The Spectre is also 20% off.

I think he only has 1 or 2 pieces available of that model.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Some pics taken during my trip to China, showing some of the testing instruments in our OEM's mainland office.

What you see here:

Machine for confirming crystals are sapphire.

Multiple-case (I recall 8 unit) pressure tester.

UV booth for checking lume.

Tension tester for bracelets and strap attachments.

Compression tester, I think, for crystals.

Magnetic field generator.

Automatic winder, with capacity for up to 80 movements, though I think they said they only test 40 at a time, because of weight.

That was all housed within the OEMs own office. There was more testing equipment across the hall, in the shared services area.

There was more I didn't photograph. They have both a handheld tool and a large projector for checking the alignment of dial and bezel elements.

Within the component suppliers, there are likewise teams of people testing each component made, before sending them to our OEM. I posted a number of live videos to my FB feed, showing several aspects of and steps in the process. My marketing guy figured out how to capture FB live videos for YouTube, so I may ask him to create a YT video compiling them.

EDIT - my bad. The pics showing the guy in the white T-shirt, he's on the shared services side, doing post-assembly pressure testing.

The second-to-last last pic shows the pressure testing machine in my OEM's office. Each of those four steel cylinders seen on the right is the cap to a chamber with a 10-watch capacity. The watches are held in a cylindrical rack within those pressure chambers. When taken out of the pressure chamber, the machine with the red vertical tubes is used to identify which of the 10 units failed, if any.










Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

^^^^
Informative, educational and deeply fascinating; but, above all, the lengthy and full-on QC process involved inspires masses of confidence in the final product - many thanks for sharing Doc.

Cheers,

Alan

Edit: More good news!! As I won't be reading the foregoing in the morning, any subsequent lateness can only be attributed to myself - unless another WOT appears overnight...........


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> ^^^^
> Informative, educational and deeply fascinating; but, above all, the lengthy and full-on QC process involved inspires masses of confidence in the final product - many thanks for sharing Doc.
> 
> Cheers,
> ...


Glad you still find it all interesting.

The QC process is a double-edged (if not more-edged) sword.

It does give *US* (that's me and my team) a high degree of confidence in the quality of what we sell, but, because of that, it also sets up the occasional conflict when something slips through.

Of course the factory will say, "there's no way we let that get through, it's impossible", and we (still me and my team) are likely to say the same. Thus, the suspicion always falls on the customer. The thinking is, "this guy's trying to pull a fast one."

That's often completely warranted, and yet, sometimes, things do slip through, which is part of the reason I went to China - to find out WHERE, and HOW things might slip through.

I frequently recall an example with another microbrand, where the customer and the brand owner were at odds over the likely cause of a specific issue, and whether or not it should be attributed to user error, or a faulty assembly, which ought to be covered under warranty.

I had a similar situation arise - once - with the exact same issue, but I knew the customer well, and I had zero doubt about his honesty. 99.9% of the time, I'm likely to believe we did our part, and there's something amiss in the customer's story, because the odds would suggest it. But in that remaining 0.1% of the time, I really don't want to be on the wrong side of the situation. I want to do the right thing, yet without being taken advantage of.

There's also the perpetual disconnect between customers' expectations and QC standards, often supported by common experience.

If 10 microbrands, each in business for five years, produce and sell 5,000 watches each, over the course of those 5 years, that's 50,000 watches out in the world. In that sample, assuming we're all doing the same things to the same standards, 99% of the watches are going to be 100% "perfect", and the remaining 1% might be less than perfect, but only by 0.5%, and often to an even lesser degree than that.

Simply because we're able to deliver 100% perfection 99% of the time, and at least 99.5% perfection the remaining 1% of the time, that doesn't mean the QC standards are 100% perfection 100% of the time. They're not.

Handset alignment has to be within 3 minutes. Bezels can be off by 1/2 of a click. Timekeeping accuracy just needs to be within spec. Visual inspection is done with the naked eye, at 25 cm, not at 10x magnification. There can be a degree of variation within a production, such that not ever piece is 100% the same as every other.

If you're the customer, your experience has likely led you to think we're delivering 100% perfection 100% of the time, and that should be our standard, and therefore your expectation. The one time someone finds something off by 0.5%, they view it as a warranty issue, but from our perspective (the brand owners' perspective), it isn't, because that 0.5% deviation is within our QC standards. We're talking about parts installed by hand, here, literally human hands.

This is why I've injected the "check your stuff before you alter its condition" element into every online discussion about "how much imperfection is acceptable".

My standards are high, but they're not 100% perfection. If your personal standards are 100% perfection, fine, but figure out if the watch I sent you meets your standards before you remove all the covers and start wearing it. Don't come to me a week later complaining about a bezel insert that's off by less than 1/2 a click, or hands that are out of alignment by 2 minutes, or some little spec of something you see under magnification, expecting me to sort it out under warranty.

More often than not (like, 99.9% of the time), the complaints I get about that stuff are all going to fall under the heading of "manufacturing tolerances/acceptable variation/within the QC standards".

I'd rather take an unworn watch back for a refund, or in some rare cases, an exchange, than have to explain to someone that what they see under magnification is technically "not there" from a QC standards perspective.


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Thenks for the even more epic than usual answer.



docvail said:


> I'm not sure if that's exactly what you mean, i.e., if the defect rate in the ST1940 was 30%-50%, is that what we'd expect with the Chinese 3-hand movements, or, if the rates of the Chinese chrono defects compared to non-Chinese chrono defects are proportional to the defect rates of Chinese 3-handers compared to non-Chinese 3-handers?


In principle, I was just wondering if it was an apples-to-apples comparison, as I had read elsewehere that chronos due to added complication were generally more likely to require maintenance. So I was wondering either if you were comparing Chinese to non-Chinese 3-handers, or Chinese to non-Chinese chronos.



docvail said:


> Even in those cases, though, I'd expect the defect rates to be higher than they are in the Swiss counterparts, and I'd expect the defect rates in Japanese movements to be lower than all of them.


Love this, because you often read the watch snobs saying "it's only a 9015, not a Swiss movement".



docvail said:


> That said, it is quite common to see many lubrication-related issues, and those are easy to spot when you dig into the movement. We've found and heard about over- and under-lubrication, and gunked up lubrication. We've even seen rust inside a movement - a NEW movement.


I have occasionally read this for Sea-Gull movements. Normally that they tended to be too sparingly lubricated.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Ragl said:
> 
> 
> > ^^^^
> ...


It should be pointed out that not too long ago I contacted doc with a warranty claim for one of these issues that would probably be considered non existent by most and he took care of it promptly and with no "are you serious" type of questions... This gives me a lot of confidence in the brand


----------



## Cheddar (May 2, 2018)

docvail said:


> This is why I've injected the "*check your stuff before you alter its condition*" element into every online discussion about "how much imperfection is acceptable".
> 
> My standards are high, but they're not 100% perfection. If your personal standards are 100% perfection, fine, but figure out if the watch I sent you meets your standards before you remove all the covers and start wearing it. Don't come to me a week later complaining about a bezel insert that's off by less than 1/2 a click, or hands that are out of alignment by 2 minutes, or some little spec of something you see under magnification, expecting me to sort it out under warranty.
> 
> ...


This is such great advice, but I feel like many U.S. consumers don't want to hear it from sellers, because many have gotten accustomed to the generous return/guarantee policies some U.S. retailers offer. Too accustomed, in fact...witness L.L. Bean's having to scale back its guarantee due to abuse.

I'll admit that I can be OCD about stuff I buy, depending on the item and the cost. I'll also admit that, in the excitement of finally holding a new acquisition in my hand and getting to use it for the first time, I can overlook things that upon closer inspection, later, start to bug me. But I feel bad about returning things to smaller or private sellers if it's something I didn't notice right away, until after I'd used it...because maybe I caused it, or my use has now otherwise affected the item and limits the seller's options if I return it. So I've disciplined myself to closely inspect anything upon arrival, removing only as much packaging as necessary to satisfy myself, and then to use the item in a careful manner for a trial period to check for use defects. That way I'm not stuck later trying to decide whether I want to eat the cost myself or make a fuss about something with a seller that I think, but am not sure, was an issue before I used the item.


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

mattm0691 said:


> It should be pointed out that not too long ago I contacted doc with a warranty claim for one of these issues that would probably be considered non existent by most and he took care of it promptly and with no "are you serious" type of questions... This gives me a lot of confidence in the brand


I second that, I contacted Doc for an issue with my orthos, and there were no questions asked, although others might consider the fault was due to misuse or abuse. He got the watch fixed and shipped back in no time.
Thank you Doc. You are simply awesome!

Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mattm0691 said:


> It should be pointed out that not too long ago I contacted doc with a warranty claim for one of these issues that would probably be considered non existent by most and he took care of it promptly and with no "are you serious" type of questions...


That you *KNOW* about...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cheddar said:


> This is such great advice, but I feel like many U.S. consumers don't want to hear it from sellers, because many have gotten accustomed to the generous return/guarantee policies some U.S. retailers offer. Too accustomed, in fact...witness L.L. Bean's having to scale back its guarantee due to abuse.
> 
> I'll admit that I can be OCD about stuff I buy, depending on the item and the cost. I'll also admit that, in the excitement of finally holding a new acquisition in my hand and getting to use it for the first time, I can overlook things that upon closer inspection, later, start to bug me. But I feel bad about returning things to smaller or private sellers if it's something I didn't notice right away, until after I'd used it...because maybe I caused it, or my use has now otherwise affected the item and limits the seller's options if I return it. So I've disciplined myself to closely inspect anything upon arrival, removing only as much packaging as necessary to satisfy myself, and then to use the item in a careful manner for a trial period to check for use defects. That way I'm not stuck later trying to decide whether I want to eat the cost myself or make a fuss about something with a seller that I think, but am not sure, was an issue before I used the item.


I could write you a book on the topic.

I'll try not to.

First, good on you for implementing some discipline on yourself. I'm encouraged to see signs the practice may be catching on, albeit slowly. It's always a relief when someone contacts me about an issue, but includes mention of the fact the watch is still in as-delivered condition. My preferred way to handle those situations is with an immediate replacement, rather than a return for repair-while-you-wait.

Secondly, I think sellers are partly to blame, when they bury the real terms of their returns policies in the fine print. Most companies require returned items to be in as-delivered condition, but you'd have to go looking for that info in many cases. It's well below the big-font "NO HASSLE RETURNS" headline.

I also think Amazon's returns have become the model people use as the measuring stick, and I was happy to see that they're now cracking down on people who appear to be abusing the system.

There is a disheartening trend I've seen, where people, especially on the internet, act like the ecommerce equivalent of jailhouse lawyers, "EU Laws require sellers to take back anything/everything for 14 days!!! File a chargeback dispute! Demand a refund or replacement!"

Uhm, no, no they don't, according to my understanding. In discussing it with actual EU sellers, I've been made to understand the law requires a returns period for goods still in as-delivered condition, not unconditional returns, regardless of condition. Good luck filing a dispute against me, or demanding anything from me. Mama didn't raise no pushovers.

The sense of entitlement many seem to have leads me to wonder what they're like in their other everyday dealings. When someone behaves as if I've personally harmed them by sending them a watch which now seems to have some issue, whether it's a legit complaint or not, I can only imagine how they might handle a REAL problem.

I try to never let it get personal. This is just a business transaction. You send me money, I send you watch. If there's a problem, I'll do everything within reason to sort it out for you, as best and as quickly as we're able to manage. There's no excuse for accusations, insults, or any form of petulance.

If it's unworn, and we can't see eye-to-eye on the matter, a return for refund is always an option. If it's worn, how we deal with it is at my sole discretion, but I always deal fairly. No reasonable person has ever had cause to complain about how we've remedied post-sale issues.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Hey Doc, speaking of all this QC stuff. I inspected my watch (Devil Ray) visually upon receipt and everything was perfect. I then adjusted the bracelet and threw it on.

It was keeping time quite well for the first couple hours. I took it off and went to sleep. I noticed the next morning that it had stopped at 3:06. No biggie, it probably didn't get a great wind. Shook it up to get it wound and it fired right off. Then, it stopped at 6 past the next hour. Handwing and shaking wouldn't get it started. I gave it a little tap on the side of the case and off it went. Until the next hour. At exactly 6 past the hour. Another tap, good for another hour.

After about 6 or 7 times, it started keeping great time and hasn't stopped since. It has actually been very accurate at +2 seconds a day or so.

I am just wondering if this is something I should be worried about in the future. Or is this just a glitch in the breaking in process.

Thanks!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> Hey Doc, speaking of all this QC stuff. I inspected my watch (Devil Ray) visually upon receipt and everything was perfect. I then adjusted the bracelet and threw it on.
> 
> It was keeping time quite well for the first couple hours. I took it off and went to sleep. I noticed the next morning that it had stopped at 3:06. No biggie, it probably didn't get a great wind. Shook it up to get it wound and it fired right off. Then, it stopped at 6 past the next hour. Handwing and shaking wouldn't get it started. I gave it a little tap on the side of the case and off it went. Until the next hour. At exactly 6 past the hour. Another tap, good for another hour.
> 
> ...


Sounds like user error or human error in observation.

Handwinding helps. We've found the STP's aren't very efficient auto-winders, sometimes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

A little preview of the Näcken Renegade...


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Sounds like user error or human error in observation.
> 
> Handwinding helps. We've found the STP's aren't very efficient auto-winders, sometimes.


Thanks, and your customer service through the website is VERY efficient. I was impressed with the quick response and will go that route in the future. Also, I got my eyes that new Nacken you just posted.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

And just to clarify my non total noobness, it was the second hand stopping after every minute revolution. Just don't want everyone thinking I don't know how to wind a watch lol. Thanks again to Doc and Julie. I still love my Devil Ray as much as my fiance hates it, so a LOT!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> A little preview of the Näcken Renegade...


That's rad af

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


> That's rad af
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


I'm not sure the video can even be trusted. That was just my mobile, and from what I've seen most mobile cameras really don't do very well capturing all the various shades of blue.

I'm not saying it ALWAYS looks blue. At some angles, in certain lights, it looks really silvery-gray, but trust me, it's blue.

We're a little ahead of schedule again. We got the first batch in this week, and I expect the rest within the next few days. We should be shipping them all out before the end of the month, a good two weeks ahead of schedule.

I didn't get the Scorpène Blue yet, but we've seen all the new versions, either the date or the no date version. I'll post some more phone pics in a 'mo...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> I'm not sure the video can even be trusted. That was just my mobile, and from what I've seen most mobile cameras really don't do very well capturing all the various shades of blue.
> 
> I'm not saying it ALWAYS looks blue. At some angles, in certain lights, it looks really silvery-gray, but trust me, it's blue.
> 
> ...


The contrast between the bezel and dial rocks...the sun shots really show the details. ..look forward to seeing some indoor pics too...beauty

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

More pics.

The Barracuda Blue is another one that's just a b1tch to photograph.

The dial and bezel are a dead-on match in some lights, especially direct and bright natural light, but step into a dark corner, you'd swear the dial is purple and the bezel is aqua blue.










Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

So excited to see my choice! They all look great!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I may have to do some downsizing in my collection soon. My case only holds 24 watches. It's full, and I've got 6 more pieces floating around outside of it, not even counting a dozen protos just sitting in a box on my shelf now, or the Santa Flake proto-mod currently on "Whirled Tour" with the guys from the BSHT threads.

I have no idea what I'd get rid of. I could start with the Helson Sharkmaster and the two Seikos, but...I still like 'em. 

Do I really need 12-13 NTH Subs? 

Sell Basic Blurple?

Sell the Commander 300?

Sell the Santa Flake? (LifeTrekker has "dibs" on it.)

Sell the Milberus (my modded Cerberus, white dial with orange rehaut, as close as I'm likely to get to a Rolex Milgauss)?

Sell the one-of-a-kind-custom-engraved Acionna prototype? 

How can I sell any of those special, one-of-a-kind pieces? 

But even the ones that are left, even though I know some haven't been worn in a year, sometimes I just like looking at them.

And no, my sons aren't into it, at least not yet. No way I'm giving either of those knuckleheads any of them, at least not until they can show me they know how to take care of anything. I'm still trying to enforce a "pants, even in the house" rule.

Maybe I'll just buy a bigger case. Is 36 a stupid-high number for a guy who doesn't even wear a watch every day? What about 48? I already look like I'm carrying the nuclear "football" walking into a GTG with my steel 24-slot case. How insane would I look if it was twice the size?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...I was just on Amazon looking for a new case, and...Amazon sucks. Where the hell are the steel travel cases? Why isn't there a sub-section under "Watches" for "Watch Cases"???

Also, with these waterproof cases...if I keep my diving watches in one of these, can I take the case swimming, and if so, how deep can I go? 50m? 500m? 5,000,000m?

I've heard the WR ratings on these cases don't mean what the numbers would indicate. Is that true? What about taking it in the shower? Is hot water a problem? What about a sauna?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Too many great looking watches 

Can't wait to get my hands on that Scorpene. Sold my srpb053 in anticipation


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Well, if it helps, I just went through this predicament this week. There is an easy solution. Just buy that other watch box you know you need! I couldn't imagine giving up any one offs, especially if I was the one behind the watch itself! 

In the end, do what you think is best, but I know that I would personally regret getting rid of watches so special. However. . . if you do. . . I am more than willing to take a couple off your hands!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## OhDark30 (Oct 2, 2012)

Why not have 2 cases: one with watches you’ve made for L&H, NTH ; one with your personal collection including one-offs?

That way, it doesn’t feel overwhelming, and you keep a show-reel of the cool stuff you’ve done


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Just get another steel 24 watch case. If they even make them for 48 watches, it would be ridiculously big. You probably don't need to bring everything to GTGs so you won't have to carry 2 cases.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OhDark30 said:


> Why not have 2 cases: one with watches you've made for L&H, NTH ; one with your personal collection including one-offs?
> 
> That way, it doesn't feel overwhelming, and you keep a show-reel of the cool stuff you've done





Iliyan said:


> Just get another steel 24 watch case. If they even make them for 48 watches, it would be ridiculously big. You probably don't need to bring everything to GTGs so you won't have to carry 2 cases.


Look at these two, trying to talk sense to me.

Pffft!










I'm thinking I should just rip the band-aid off and sell some pieces, maybe a dozen. I feel like an a-hole owning more than 30 watches, most of which never get worn.


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Look at these two, trying to talk sense to me.
> 
> Pffft!
> 
> ...


*This* is the reason?


----------



## Noro (Jun 16, 2018)

docvail said:


> *Right now, we're OVER 1 year in getting from design start to delivery.* Look at the DevilRay. We started working on that in January of this year, and won't make delivery until Spring. That's beyond disgusting to me, when I know we lost two months dicking around back and forth with the factory about the design, and I'll have to build at least a 30 day production delay into my delivery estimate.


Doc I'm curious, a few Q's if you don't mind:

Is this how things remain currently, or has there been any changes on the timeline front in the past year since this post? 
Is this industry wide more or less, as in no matter which manufacturer you work with over there, or do other brands using other factories/suppliers have longer or shorter production cycles?
What factor(s) seem to contribute most needlessly to this timeline which you think could be easily improved if only so-and-so would do X better/faster/smarter?

Thanks


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

If it's like that throughout the industry, that implies a state where all brands are guesstimating the "hot trends" a year in advance...


----------



## Noro (Jun 16, 2018)

That's why it's best not to follow fleeting trends, and instead create timeless designs like doc has with NTH and most other micros have done. Hell, all of us are loving basic design cues from divers 60 years old.

Good design stands the test of time, because good design is based on shapes and colors and textures and design cues that are pleasing to almost all of us watch folk.

The brands that run into issues are the ones that decide to make 45mm or 36mm watches, or lime green and fuscia dials, or 1 inch thick 1000 meter divers, or some gimmick. Or for example models that big brands put out. What percentage of current 2018 Citizen models do you imagine being desirable in 5 years? In 10 years? I think 1% would be a miracle. The big brands put out a bunch of outliers to see what sticks, and to try to cater to _today_.

Micros, almost universally, produce models that have design cues/features/specs people have always loved. They have to really, economically. In turn, following "trends" isn't much of an issue for micros. Sure we may have a "big crown year" and things like that, but not many _major_ changes, simply due to what we here like and demand has changed very little.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Thin is a current trend. Retro is a current trend. Smaller sizes (38-40mm) is a current trend. (Boxed and high-arched crystals are a current trend too). GMT bezels on divers is a very new & current trend. There's no avoiding these things.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> ... Is 36 a stupid-high number for a guy who doesn't even wear a watch every day?


Underwear I can understand, but a watch Doc?

Really?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Noro (Jun 16, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> Thin is a current trend.


I can't recall any time period in my life when thinness was a detriment all else being equal, so I wouldn't call it a trend. People may appreciate something thinner, but as long as its reasonable and they otherwise like the watch it's not required to be the thinnest. If they like it and it's 13mm, they will buy it. You don't have to put out a 10.5 to compete.



> Retro is a current trend


What do define as retro? If you are meaning the current glut of "racing chronographs", sure, maybe. But otherwise people have loved old subs for example and similar watches almost uninterrupted for decades. Again, timeless design.



> Smaller sizes (38-40mm) is a current trend


I would argue ~40mm has been the standard for decades, and the blips of stupid big sizes was the trend. In other words, you are seeing a return to normalcy, not a trend. And really, the desirability for 40 never went away even at the height of watch obesity, there are untold numbers of threads and complaints about giant watches. Turns out wrists haven't really changed and some sanity has returned to dimensions. 40 is always going to sell, unless we evolve back to gorillas sooner than expected.

Again, if you are creating timeless designs like Doc and others there is little to worry about "trends". People are loving the new subs and there's not a high boxed crystal in sight, nor a GMT, nor a 38, and no kitsch "retro". Just good, timeless design. It sells, and it will continue to. I can't think of any watch in the NTH lineup that wouldn't have been liked a decade ago, or won't be liked a decade in the future. They are all selling, and none of them are playing at "trends".


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

1. That näcken renegade looks sweet. Black/grey in one picture, fading blue in the other. Damn it. I can't!! Save one for me somewhere, will ya?!

2. keep all the watches you own. You didn't „pay" for them (at least for the nth/l&h)

3.:









Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

docvail said:


> There is a disheartening trend I've seen, where people, especially on the internet, act like the ecommerce equivalent of jailhouse lawyers, "EU Laws require sellers to take back anything/everything for 14 days!!! File a chargeback dispute! Demand a refund or replacement!"
> 
> Uhm, no, no they don't, according to my understanding. In discussing it with actual EU sellers, I've been made to understand the law requires a returns period for goods still in as-delivered condition, not unconditional returns, regardless of condition. Good luck filing a dispute against me, or demanding anything from me. Mama didn't raise no pushovers.


EU regulations (that AFAIK in this case have to be implemented in the member states' national laws) mandate a 14 day return period for goods purchased by means of "remote shopping". Online shopping, or by phone, fax or letter. The customer, if it was a B2C transaction, does not need to give (or have, FWIW) a reason for returning the good. That said, there are a few exceptions like made to order/bespoke goods.

The overall idea was to protect customers - and bricks and mortar shops. In the latter, a customer can ideally take a good look at the good they are interested in, in order to make their purchase decision. To make up for this not being possible in the same extent when buying e.g. online, the compulsory return period was introduced.

My understanding now is that customers have the right to try goods they buy online like they would in a shop, and have the right to return them afterwards. Just like in a shop, if you drop the vase, you normally will have to pay for it. The shop will not borrow you the suit for your job interview, so ordering one online and sending it back after the interview is definitely not the purpose of the rule.

All this to say that claiming the 14 day return period can be invoked regardless of the item's use and condition afterwards would be a misunderstanding at best.


----------



## carlitoswhey (Jun 26, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> If it's like that throughout the industry, that implies a state where all brands are guesstimating the "hot trends" a year in advance...


In most categories it's longer than that. Even in fast fashion, Old Navy decides "let's do vests" and you see them in store 18 months later. For fast-moving consumer goods, a trend is out for 2 or 3 years minimum before big companies can get on board. To use a good example - Sriracha and habañero were on menus in Brooklyn 10 years ago and now they are in your snack foods.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bradjhomes said:


> *This* is the reason?


Yes?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Noro said:


> Doc I'm curious, a few Q's if you don't mind:
> 
> Is this how things remain currently, or has there been any changes on the timeline front in the past year since this post?
> Is this industry wide more or less, as in no matter which manufacturer you work with over there, or do other brands using other factories/suppliers have longer or shorter production cycles?
> ...


It depends, there have been, I don't know but I think so, I don't know but maybe, and trying to meet ever-increasingly-unrealistic expectations, both from customers and from myself.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

The Nacken Renegade is visually interesting at least. It should be a coveted addition to many watch boxes.

However, it should come with a warning -- do not look at it while driving.

EDIT: I think this one is the winner in the current crop of NTH subs.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> So...I was just on Amazon looking for a new case, and...Amazon sucks. Where the hell are the steel travel cases? Why isn't there a sub-section under "Watches" for "Watch Cases"???
> 
> Also, with these waterproof cases...if I keep my diving watches in one of these, can I take the case swimming, and if so, how deep can I go? 50m? 500m? 5,000,000m?
> 
> ...


You can, but I heard they only test a sample of the units for water resistance (they test all of the cases before watches are added, BUT only a sample afterwards with the watches in them) and it's not ISO rated, so...

Also, it's not Swiss Made, so, yeah..

Oh man, also it's 508mm, so this is likely in the sweet spot for Baron Von Whats-his-name, and a screwdown (locking) crown. I'm back in!

Tho price-wise, it's not bad for a micro, but for $100 more I can get the real thing, a Pelican...

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nuru said:


> EU regulations (that AFAIK in this case have to be implemented in the member states' national laws) mandate a 14 day return period for goods purchased by means of "remote shopping". Online shopping, or by phone, fax or letter. The customer, if it was a B2C transaction, does not need to give (or have, FWIW) a reason for returning the good. That said, there are a few exceptions like made to order/bespoke goods.
> 
> The overall idea was to protect customers - and bricks and mortar shops. In the latter, a customer can ideally take a good look at the good they are interested in, in order to make their purchase decision. To make up for this not being possible in the same extent when buying e.g. online, the compulsory return period was introduced.
> 
> ...


I can't tell if you were agreeing or disagreeing with me.

My point was, I read people's posts, stating EU sellers have to take things back for 14 days, even if the condition has been changed. But as I've understood from EU sellers, that's not true, and in fact returns for refund require no change to goods' condition.

I really don't need to care, because I'm not a seller in the EU. If the laws are what people think they are, they're ridiculous prima facie. If they're NOT as people think they are, then those people are exactly as clueless as they seem and sound.

Either way, it's an example of how unrealistic and unreasonable their expectations have become.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



carlitoswhey said:


> In most categories it's longer than that. Even in fast fashion, Old Navy decides "let's do vests" and you see them in store 18 months later. For fast-moving consumer goods, a trend is out for 2 or 3 years minimum before big companies can get on board. To use a good example - Sriracha and habañero were on menus in Brooklyn 10 years ago and now they are in your snack foods.


I think next hot sauce trend will be Gochujang paste, it's hot, a little sweet with toasted sesame. I've been using it for the last 2 years and it's yummy. Another trend I see is Ghost chili sauce. We use it in Shakshuka, the vapors when cooking make your eyes burn.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Tanjecterly said:


> The Nacken Renegade is visually interesting at least. It should be a coveted addition to many watch boxes.
> 
> However, it should come with a warning -- do not look at it while driving.
> 
> EDIT: I think this one is the winner in the current crop of NTH subs.


Tbh all of the new batch Subs look mighty fine. Even the ZvordVish looks better than I had thought. The Renegade gives a different impression from that video than what I had expected from the render mockups (much more like an "aged" look, and much less "blue sunburst"). A great look regardless.

Iirc from John's video on WatchGauge channel (the interview with doc), he implied that these subs (Renegade etc.) would have two production runs? Or am I misremembering smth?


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> More pics.
> 
> The Barracuda Blue is another one that's just a b1tch to photograph.
> 
> ...


I bought both the renegade and barracuda on pre order, and am veryyy excited right now.. thanks for the pictures


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Tbh all of the new batch Subs look mighty fine. Even the ZvordVish looks better than I had thought. The Renegade gives a different impression from that video than what I had expected from the render mockups (much more like an "aged" look, and much less "blue sunburst"). A great look regardless.
> 
> Iirc from John's video on WatchGauge channel (the interview with doc), he implied that these subs (Renegade etc.) would have two production runs? Or am I misremembering smth?


You're not misremembering.

The Subs we have in production now, targeted for delivery in October/November, include more Renegades and Scorpène Blue, plus some other new versions, to be revealed soon.

Stay tuned.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

My wallet does not thank you although my watch box does; I'll have to do some selling off.

EDIT: Want to make some people VERY happy? Scorpene blue with DATE.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Preview of Barracuda Blue.






Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Digging the previews...keep em coming Doc 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Preview of Barracuda Blue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Talk about a first world problem, but I was majorly struggling to decide between the Barracuda and the Renegade. Ended up choosing the Barracuda. And that video just justified my decision. Looks awesome.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

I picked the wrong time to be broke.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

SteamJ said:


> I picked the wrong time to be broke.
> 
> View attachment 13299599


Just sell something on f29


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

Doc - I have the answer to your predicament...

Sell your NTH Barracuda* to me, then buy another watch box for your remaining watches.

:-d

* Assuming you have a Barracuda in your collection.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Devil Ray today








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Mil6161 said:


> Devil Ray today
> View attachment 13299665
> 
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Chevelle? 69/70ish?


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Chevelle? 69/70ish?


Nova 1970








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Mil6161 said:


> Nova 1970
> View attachment 13299875
> 
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


I was close 
Looks great


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchuck said:


> Doc - I have the answer to your predicament...
> 
> Sell your NTH Barracuda* to me, then buy another watch box for your remaining watches.
> 
> ...


Can't.

Love it too much.

I kind of hate selling anything used, because people want good pics, and a better price, and I'm not really into providing either.

But, hypothetically, if I was going to do a sell-off, here's what I think would be on the chopping block:

NTH Amphions, all three that I have - the Modern Black, Dark Gilt, and Vintage Black.

As much as I thought I was doing this to make my own perfect MilSub, none of them gets worn much. I seem to prefer the snowflake hands and square markers of the Näckens.

Näcken Vintage Black, and maybe the Modern Black. I'd keep the Vintage Blue and Modern Blue, definitely.

The Santa Fe, and it's idiot half-brother, the Santa Flake. I'm not into Mercedes hands, personally, and even though the Santa Flake is cool with its darker dial and enamel snowflake hands, I just don't think I'm that into it enough, and LifeTrekker wants it, so, it'd probably go.

What's that so far, seven pieces?

All three of the Acionnas, even the engraved prototype. They're just not getting worn. So we're up to 10.

All four of my Orthos pieces, the two original colorways of the Orthos I, the Basic Blurple frankenmod, and my Commander 300, though, that one will be tough to part with. Again, they're just not being worn. So, we're up to 14.

My gray/red Cerberus. 15.

Eventually, the Helson Sharkmaster, and the two Seikos I got this past Spring. 18.

I think I'd stop there. That would leave me with 6 NTH Subs (3 Näckens, 2 Scorpènes, and the brown Barracuda), the White/Orange Milberus, a Mint Azores, a Champagne Antilles, and three DevilRays.

A dozen watches, not counting prototypes and other stuff which floats in and out.

Still way more than I need or can regularly wear, but at least I'd feel a little less guilty about it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Don't even remember what it was, but something someone said made me go looking into the thread history for something, and I stumbled back on the date-window placement debate.

I know I'm getting old, and this is an old-man thing to say, but I think I hate 6 o'clock date windows. My eyes can't make out the date when it's at 6.

From a designer's perspective, it's SOOOOOoooooo much easier to achieve symmetry with the date at 6, but the change in orientation makes the numbers so damned tall and skinny, in order to fit in that window, that I can't read them. Even when I'm wearing my glasses, it's hard. 

I'm starting to appreciate the value of the 3 o'clock date window.

Pretty soon I may be jumping on the cyclops bandwagon.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

^^^ That's what the no-date option is for. ^^^


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Don't even remember what it was, but something someone said made me go looking into the thread history for something, and I stumbled back on the date-window placement debate.
> 
> I know I'm getting old, and this is an old-man thing to say, but I think I hate 6 o'clock date windows. My eyes can't make out the date when it's at 6.
> 
> ...


You'd look strange with just one eye stuck in the middle of your forehead Doc, don't do it..........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> Don't even remember what it was, but something someone said made me go looking into the thread history for something, and I stumbled back on the date-window placement debate.
> 
> I know I'm getting old, and this is an old-man thing to say, but I think I hate 6 o'clock date windows. My eyes can't make out the date when it's at 6.
> 
> ...


Just make it bigger?










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## helot (Jun 27, 2018)

docvail said:


> Can't.
> 
> All four of my Orthos pieces, the two original colorways of the Orthos I, the Basic Blurple frankenmod, and my Commander 300, though, that one will be tough to part with. Again, they're just not being worn. So, we're up to 14.
> 
> Still way more than I need or can regularly wear, but at least I'd feel a little less guilty about it.


Free yourself of the guilt. I'll provide the Commander 300 and my pre-ordered Tiburon a fine and loving home.

Thanks for the informative posts on the watch industry and your business process and challenges. New here and to the hobby and have found your writings entertaining and highly informative.

Looking forward to your future L&H and NTH releases.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Haha likewise. No pics needed. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Don't even remember what it was, but something someone said made me go looking into the thread history for something, and I stumbled back on the date-window placement debate.
> 
> I know I'm getting old, and this is an old-man thing to say, but I think I hate 6 o'clock date windows. My eyes can't make out the date when it's at 6.
> 
> ...


I thought I was a no-date person, but after wearing mostly a date watch lately I've come to appreciate this complication. 
I guess the perfect balance would be to have date on the few I wear regularly and no date one the ones I only wear occasionally. The problem off course, is to know which of those categories the watch will fall in at time of purchase. 
I don't really like the 6 o'clock position, so although I would like for you to have perfect vision forever, something good might come from that imperfection. 
I actually think perfection has has to do with why I don't like the 6o'clock position too. It's too perfect. To stylish. 3 o'clock or 4:30 helps to keep things more "toolish".
I'm tired. Nevermind the rambling

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> ^^^ That's what the no-date option is for. ^^^


Preach, brother, preach.

I may want to revisit my keep/cut list to screen for the no-date options. Whenever I pull production pieces for my own collection, they're no-dates, and it's even started to factor into which versions I ask the factory to prototype.

Like, if we're doing both a black and a blue dial version of a design, both with or without the date, and I think I'm going to like one dial color more than the other, I tell them to make that one the no-date, so, hopefully, it'll be a piece I'll want to keep, so I won't need to pull a production piece.

But, then again, as much as I think I really don't need the date on my watch, at least twice a month, I'll need to know the date, look down at my watch for it, and "D'oh!"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Just make it bigger?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not the size of the window, it's the size and orientation of the numbers.

Observe:

Date at 3, window 2.9mm wide x 2mm tall, horizontal orientation:









Date at 6, window 2mm wide x 2.9mm tall, vertical orientation:









Before telling me there's no difference in legibility, leave those two images on your computer screen, then walk out of your house, and across the street, looking back at the screen with a clear line of sight, and tell me which of those two is easier to read.

The date windows are 2mm x 2.7mm-2.9mm, that's really freaking tiny, and it's easier to read the date when the numbers are printed with a horizontal date window orientation than printed in a tall/narrow font, within a vertical window orientation.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I think I figured out why the internet has been slowly driving me insane the last 5 years.

Just as a goof, I posted the waterproof watch case thing to a FB group last night.

At least half the people think I was being serious.

Like, some of them can't believe someone would be that stupid, and some others are actually trying to treat the question as if it's not ridiculous on its face.

They're actually debating it, with half the people in the debate being completely tongue in cheek, and the other half apparently not realizing it.

All this time, I thought I was arguing with people who actually believed what they were saying. Now I'm starting to think a lot of them really didn't believe it, they were just being ridiculous for entertainment's sake, like I was last night...

Ugh, 6:45pm on a Friday, and I'm not even drinking yet. This situation has to be remedied immediately.

I'm out.

PEACE!


----------



## Parsival (Apr 16, 2018)

docvail said:


> I think I figured out why the internet has been slowly driving me insane the last 5 years.
> 
> Just as a goof, I posted the waterproof watch case thing to a FB group last night.
> 
> ...


You got trolled lol.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

Wow. I don't know if I should say, "I wish I spent more time in that FB group," or "I'm SO glad I don't spend very much time in that FB group."

Re: Date/No Date-- I was all about no date, and super psyched when I traded for the no date Scorpene. I wear it a lot. And I invariably need to know the date. And I look down. And there's NOTHING! And I have to REACH INTO MY POCKET and PULL OUT MY CELL PHONE TO CONFIRM THE DATE! A WIS's worst nightmare. I'm now firmly planted in the DATE-YES camp, except perhaps for dress watches that I might only be wearing for an evening event. Or Vostoks.

Re: Date size & placement. I don't know what you're talking about. It's perfectly easy to read the date at 6 o'clock. And I will continue to hold that opinion for exactly 1.75 years-- because my optometrist tells me that, at exactly 42.5 years of age, everyone need bifocals. Ugh. I don't know if I can abide by a cyclops, though. Especially one that looks like Chris.

Re: New Nths. I'm really kicking myself that I didn't get in a preorder of the Renegade. Wowsers. Maybe for my birthday this fall.

Re: Your collection. Don't you need a L&H/Nth "museum" Chris? For when anxious WIS acolytes storm into Pennsylvania in 2030 asking "How did this empire all start? Where are the prototypes that we may bask in their glory and worship their genius creator?" But seriously, you can't get rid of all your Acionnas, can you? At least not for history's sake? Just get a damn box for archiving / travelling around to show the evolution of your brands.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Doc...you're a watch company/Wis owner...wear the freaking things...don't make us pull your card

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Perdendosi said:


> Wow. I don't know if I should say, "I wish I spent more time in that FB group," or "I'm SO glad I don't spend very much time in that FB group."
> 
> Re: Date/No Date-- I was all about no date, and super psyched when I traded for the no date Scorpene. I wear it a lot. And I invariably need to know the date. And I look down. And there's NOTHING! And I have to REACH INTO MY POCKET and PULL OUT MY CELL PHONE TO CONFIRM THE DATE! A WIS's worst nightmare. I'm now firmly planted in the DATE-YES camp, except perhaps for dress watches that I might only be wearing for an evening event. Or Vostoks.
> 
> ...


RE - eyeglasses

I lived in denial about my no longer 20/20 eyesight for a good 3-4 years. Getting old sucks.

RE - New NTH Subs

Kaj from Serious Watches apparently still has Nacken Renegades available. I'm shocked.

RE - curating a museum to my own ego

That's really all it would be, an exhibit of artifacts which are supposed to be some sort of testament to my own greatness.

That's not how I'm wired, at all. I don't think I'm all that great, and I'd be embarrassed if anyone said I was.

When you climb a mountain, you snap a pic at the summit, then you climb down. You don't get to take the mountain with you. You can grab some sand as you cross the desert, and put it in a bottle, and the bottle on your shelf, but no one who sees the sand in the bottle on your shelf can grasp what it was really like to actually be there, and to do it.

I don't keep trophies. Not like that. I have a memento of my time in the Rangers, a coin I was given on the day I left. It's beat to hell, and I use it as a card protector when I play poker.

All my other old Army crap - you know, medals/ribbons, that $hlt - is in a box with a bunch of other crap I keep just in case I die suddenly, and my wife has to piece together who I was so she can explain it all to my sons.

Otherwise, I'm here, alive until I die, and if you want to know something about me, I'll tell you, if you ask me. I don't expect anyone to be interested enough to spend time staring at some stuff I dragged out to show you. If you were on the state championship basketball team in High School, I so don't care. Don't bother showing me your ring. What have you done lately?

When I go to GTG's and meet people, they spend 10 seconds looking in my watch case, and 10 minutes asking me stuff.

I'm the purist example of a true "minimalist" that you're ever likely to encounter. There's really nothing I want, and there's nothing I own that I feel any sort of sentiment about, nothing whatsoever. I donated my great-grand-uncle's Ventura to a watchmaking museum. My grandfather's Seiko is on a shelf, not running, still sized to his wrist, not mine.

That's all just stuff, replaceable, slowly oxidizing or otherwise wasting away. It can't replace the memories of the actual experiences, or the interactions with actual people.

I live in the now.

And right now, I'm overdue for a drink.

Once again, for real this time, I'm out.

PEACE!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Reading Doc's troll train on FB makes me understand why he is what he is.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

Parsival said:


> You got trolled lol.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dear Parsival

Please do not quote an entire wall of text just to comment that someone got trolled (oh the irony)

Your friends at F71


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Don't even remember what it was, but something someone said made me go looking into the thread history for something, and I stumbled back on the date-window placement debate.
> 
> I know I'm getting old, and this is an old-man thing to say, but *I think I hate 6 o'clock date windows.* My eyes can't make out the date when it's at 6.
> 
> ...


sacrelige

date at 6 is intended to be slim - which is why it looks so good from a distance - the date takes the place of an indice - so up close you end up with a lot of the symmetry of a no-date watch, and when you need the date, it is there.

join us on the dark side and up the power on those glasses, man - i've been wearing them for decades. you won't scare anybody

just when we got you making cool 'date at 6' watches, you want to jump off the parade float...we aren't letting you off that easy


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Watcher said:


> ...join us on the dark side and up the power on those glasses, man - i've been wearing them for decades. you won't scare anybody...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Noro said:


> or lime green and fuscia dials


Nothing wrong with that if done properly. I agree that the wrist panzer "Mariana Trench Buster" watches are absurd, but Zodiac's divers had wild colors in the '60s, and I like that they are bringing that back. Everybody else can keep doing black on black.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I know I'm getting old, and this is an old-man thing to say, but I think I hate 6 o'clock date windows. My eyes can't make out the date when it's at 6.


My eyes are starting to go, but fortunately I'm not there just yet. That being said, I've only ever owned one 6 o'clock date watch thus far (Cascais) and it was a black date disc which I think are easier to read than the normal white ones. Regardless, friends don't let friends do 4:30 dates.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13300749


that is indeed, the classic 'looking at walls of text' face


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

docvail said:


> RE - eyeglasses
> 
> I lived in denial about my no longer 20/20 eyesight for a good 3-4 years. Getting old sucks.


Doc, getting old does suck. I've had glasses since I was 22, progressives at 40. Inguinal hernia done at 44. Dr. Jelly Finger for prostate exam at 48. Then you hit 50, yay, my first colonoscopy. Meniscus tear and bone graft on right knee same year. Stage III arthritis on same knee, Dr. says stage IIII is bone on bone, total knee in 10-12 years. 52, back to Dr. Grab-A-Dollar to confirm alcoholic gastritis with an endoscopy, no more wine or whiskey and a 2 beer limit. On top of all that I'm going bald and deaf. I can't wait to see what 53 brings.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

SAMSQUANCH!!!!!!!!!!

After reading some of the FB thread I regret not jumping in. I say it and decided to disregard. for that Doc, I am sorry I did not feed the trolls. As a Nthomite, or are we LewHueisians? It is our duty to feed trolls when the Doc posts? The Doc abides man......



docvail said:


> View attachment 13300749


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I am staring at that 50 number...3 to go but your underlined quote is the one that scares me the most!!!!! THE HORROR!!!!

I am cool with a finger in the butt. It could be worse, I stop the party at 3 fingers thou.....see the underlined quote, I guess there are always exceptions.



Ratfacedgit said:


> Doc, getting old does suck. I've had glasses since I was 22, progressives at 40. Inguinal hernia done at 44. Dr. Jelly Finger for prostate exam at 48. Then you hit 50, yay, my first colonoscopy. Meniscus tear and bone graft on right knee same year. Stage III arthritis on same knee, Dr. says stage IIII is bone on bone, total knee in 10-12 years. 52, back to Dr. Grab-A-Dollar to confirm alcoholic gastritis with an endoscopy, no more wine or whiskey and a 2 beer limit. On top of all that I'm going bald and deaf. I can't wait to see what 53 brings.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Preview of the Tiburón


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

You sir are a very bad bad man. When will it ever be enough for you? Won't just let me own one or two (several?) of your wares and be satisfied. You just keep tempting me over and over again. At what point is it WIS abuse? Is there a hot line for such a thing? I need to report you to someone.

PS: Scorpene vid, pics, mimed or interpretive dance, anything por favor to oogle at until I get mine


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> PS: Scorpene vid, pics, mimed or interpretive dance, anything por favor to oogle at until I get mine


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


>


I did say "por favor" and give a little cry at the end. If I am your supervisor now might be a good time to hit me up for a raise.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> I did say "por favor" and give a little cry at the end. If I am your supervisor now might be a good time to hit me up for a raise.


I'm expecting to get hands on the Scorpene Tuesday afternoon.

Will try to get you and the rest of the peanut gallery a video preview then, or soon after.

Now, about that raise...


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Trixie, my killer dachshund getting ear rubs with a DevilRay.


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

docvail said:


> Pretty soon I may be jumping on the cyclops bandwagon.


Please don't do it! I hate the way a cyclops looks on a Rolex and think it looks worse on anything else. Just not cool.
Also thought I didn't need a date on my watches but I find myself looking at my new daily wearer at least 5 times a day seeking out the date. Going forward, I know what I like. 
If you are taking requests though I would love to see some fixed bezel versions in the near future. Just a thought.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

A special cyclops variant (or a new model with a cyclops) mightn't be such a bad thing, all in all.


----------



## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

Is that a wiener dog? 

I don't care really I just wanted to say 'wiener'...


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)




----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

If you've gotta do one, I think the inverted cyclops that Panerai and Rado use are definitely preferable to Rolex style bubbles. Still don't like them, just dislike them less.


----------



## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

With all this talk about cyclops and progressive lenses, the sudden horrible concept of a progressive cyclops on a watch crystal pops into my mind...

(Yeah, I'm sure that'll look just about as good as the idea sounds)


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Tanker G1 said:


> Is that a wiener dog?
> 
> I don't care really I just wanted to say 'wiener'...


Yes, she is a 'tween wiener. Not a mini wiener(9-12 pounds) or a standard wiener(20-25 pounds). Trixie is an 18 pound wiener. Mom was a standard wiener and dad was a mini wiener. Mom had 8 wiener pups, 6 male wieners and 2 female wieners. She will be 5 in August and was diagnosed with epilepsy 2 years ago. She has a petit mal seizure about every 6 weeks. Wieners are our favorite breed, Trixie being our fourth wiener in 14 years.

There, I said wiener 11 times, no 12. I forgot about the last wiener, oh now it's 13.:roll::roll:


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ratfacedgit said:


> Yes, she is a 'tween wiener. Not a mini wiener(9-12 pounds) or a standard wiener(20-25 pounds). Trixie is an 18 pound wiener. Mom was a standard wiener and dad was a mini wiener. Mom had 8 wiener pups, 6 male wieners and 2 female wieners. She will be 5 in August and was diagnosed with epilepsy 2 years ago. She has a petit mal seizure about every 6 weeks. Wieners are our favorite breed, Trixie being our fourth wiener in 14 years.
> 
> There, I said wiener 11 times, no 12. I forgot about the last wiener, oh now it's 13.:roll::roll:


Dogs are awesome. That is all.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> Dogs are awesome. That is all.


Right you are. All our dogs have been rescues.

Here is Daisy, our rough coat Jack Russell/Bassett hound. Her hair is like a goat but her ears are soft.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

I'm sure there is, but is there a technical reason why a watch crystal just could incorporate the flat, multifocal lensing like a pair of glasses does? I get that the optics here are reversed, but it seems like something could be done via lensing within the thickness of the crystal itself. Maybe not due to water resistance, height tolerance, etc.?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Wonder why there isn’t more use of the internal cyclops so that the outside of the crystal remains smooth?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Never looked into various cyclops alternatives. I guess it's something I may want to look into.

In the meantime, look into this...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

It's orange


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> It's orange


Just as every sword-fist should be.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Just as every sword-fist should be.


I thought it was sword-fish....


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

docvail said:


> I can't tell if you were agreeing or disagreeing with me.


I was trying to provide a bit of context, particularly for non-EU readers. I'll try to be clearer in my explanations. Continental European writing styles are very different from Anglo-Saxon ones and do not necessarily emphasize brevity or clarity.



docvail said:


> My point was, I read people's posts, stating EU sellers have to take things back for 14 days, even if the condition has been changed. But as I've understood from EU sellers, that's not true, and in fact returns for refund require no change to goods' condition.


This is not quite right I think, but IANAL.



> A deduction can be made if the value of the goods has been reduced as a result of you handling the goods more than was necessary.
> 
> The extent to which you can handle the goods is the same as it would be if you were assessing them in a shop.


https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-ri...cts-regulations#cancelling-goods-and-services

Buyers can in effect open packaging, connect the device or even assemble a piece of furniture. This means that a returned good can indeed have a massively diminished resale value, while the vendor has to refund the full purchase price.

So basically, the way I understand it, a buyer can change the condition of the good as much as required to see and understand how it works. They cannot use it beyond that, but there proof gets extremely tricky.



docvail said:


> I really don't need to care, because I'm not a seller in the EU.


And as such, the statutory 14 day cancellation/return period is not applicable.



docvail said:


> Either way, it's an example of how unrealistic and unreasonable their expectations have become.


That is hard to argue with.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nuru said:


> I was trying to provide a bit of context, particularly for non-EU readers. I'll try to be clearer in my explanations. Continental European writing styles are very different from Anglo-Saxon ones and do not necessarily emphasize brevity or clarity.
> 
> This is not quite right I think, but IANAL.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the context, and am more than willing to extend the discussion, while hoping neither of us is seen as arguing over it. I sincerely appreciate the link to the applicable laws in the EU, which spared me from having to go and find them.

I disagree with your interpretation of the highlighted section, inasmuch as your interpretation is opposite of what I was told by a reputable seller in the EU, and opposite to how it would seem to read:









Now, I'm no lawyer, not even in the USA, much less the EU, but my understanding is that the highlighted sections are what give sellers (in this case, watch sellers, specifically) the ability to deny returns for refunds in cases where the condition of the goods have been altered.

Before we (to include anyone here) get into arguing the semantics or the practical applications, allow me to suggest that in reality, this seems like the sort of consumer protection laws which rarely end up being enforced by legal means. Few people are going to file a lawsuit over an affordable watch.

I think it's more likely that sellers with businesses of a size large enough to attract attention have likely consulted with legal counsel about it, to be sure they're compliant with the applicable rules, and sellers who are too small to be worth suing may or may not be overly concerned with compliance.

Either way, my advice is what it's always been - it's better to know the sellers' policies BEFORE you buy, and certainly BEFORE you alter the goods' condition, than to proceed recklessly forward, and gripe about the consequences of your own willful ignorance later.

But, regardless, and referring back to the above screen shot, how I read that, and how it's been explained to me, is exactly as I've said - returns for refund may be contingent upon the goods' condition still being "pristine", and we might infer that removing plastic covers on a watch could fall under the heading of "handling the goods more than was necessary", or we might infer that removing said plastic might indicate a watch has been worn, raising "hygiene reasons".

My personal $0.02 - removing the plastic covers is indeed handling a watch more than necessary to determine if it functions correctly, has any visual defects, and if it meets your overall expectations for quality. I personally am not concerned about the hygiene implications of touching a watch worn by another human, but I know there are other people who are apparently really skeeved out by indirect contact with other humans, and no doubt a skilled lawyer could make an argument that the business has a liability with regards to contagious diseases spread by indirect contact.

But, as I said, and at the end of the day, what those rules actually mean, and how they actually get applied is really not my concern, because I'm not in the EU. What does concern me is the widespread commentary by people who believe those rules provide them with an umbrella excuse for all sorts of unethical practices as consumers.

I've tried to resist the urge to comment in most of the threads, but every time I see some discussion about some issue with some watch, and the ludicrous suggestions that a refund/replacement is due even after the watch has been worn, I cringe. That's my main point - that many people have developed expectations which I think are truly unjust, and those people will often assert that the law is on their side, even if it really isn't.

Logically, that would seem to indicate that, at least in their minds, the sellers' actions aren't just unfriendly, they're illegal, if the seller refuses the customer's demands for a refund or replacement. Such thinking turns normal commerce into criminal behavior. Extreme? Perhaps, but tell me there aren't people who hold extreme views within this little community.

Likewise, I lost track of the thread, but there was a recent one discussing the length of time people take to decide whether or not to return something, and within that thread, some argument broke out, with these EU rules being referenced as a specific defense for what I'd consider "bad faith" behavior on the part of the customer.

All of which makes me even more thankful that I've been largely able to avoid having very many of the most lunatic folks as customers, and only have to deal with a handful of preposterous demands each year. I will continue to encourage other business owners to take a hard-line stance against all such nonsense, rather than live in fear of the consequences of doing what's right, morally.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I feel I should clarify one point above, vis-a-vis, "The extent to which you can handle the goods is the same as it would be if you were assessing them in a shop."

The obvious interpretation is that when you're in a shop looking at a watch, it's not covered in plastic, and as such, you'd be allowed to remove the plastic on a watch received by mail, and the seller would still have to take it back, and issue a full refund.

I disagree, even as I admit, that's the obvious interpretation.

Let's say you're in an AD. Maybe the piece you're handling isn't covered in plastic, but, if it's *MY* AD, that wouldn't be the piece you'd be buying, if you decided to buy one. I'd make sure you got a new piece, still in the plastic protective covering, not the floor sample.

Thus, you would not be able to return a watch to me after altering its condition, in that scenario.

Likewise, I might not have a floor model available for inspection, and might not let you remove the plastic before buying one I have for sale.

Show me the law which says I have to let you alter the condition of an item BEFORE you buy it, and I'll believe it. Until then, this all seems subject to interpretation, and as such, arguable post-hoc, after the fact.

The point is, I don't really care so much what people's interpretations are, since A) the rules under debate don't apply to me either way, and B) to whatever extent they apply to anyone, they only have as much force of effect as people are willing to bring to bear, and C) if they do support the idea that people can stick a seller with worn goods, and still get a full refund, then they're monumentally stupid rules, and clearly contributing to some people willingly acting monumentally stupid.

By that middle part (the B clause) I mean, if you're the customer, attempting to get a full refund on a watch after you've altered its condition, over the objections of the seller, what ability do you have to force the issue? A PayPal or credit card dispute? A public shaming? Those would seem to be the only resources at your disposal, and neither seems guaranteed to deliver the outcome you desire.

You know what would guarantee it? 

If you guessed, "not altering the condition before seeking a refund", you're paying attention.

In speaking to some EU and UK sellers, I've been told they maintain policies similar to those we have in the USA, such that items returned for refund must be in as-delivered condition, which seems both logical and fair to me, notwithstanding the widespread (and silly) opinions to the contrary.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Scorpène Blue...


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Love it! Man this is a beauty


docvail said:


> Scorpène Blue...


Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

One more things guys, there have been a lot of long posts, please let's make it a point, if you are writing a wall of text include some pics even if not related to make it more tempting to read.... More pics guys, more pics!

Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I like the blue Scorpene. Killer look and lume.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I received a pre-owned Vintage Blue Nacken--which I've long been on the hunt for--in the mail today! I promptly threw it on the Erika's Original MN strap I've been saving specifically for it.

The wait and effort was well worth it: this watch definitely doesn't disappoint!









































My subs quest is nearly complete: just awaiting someone to want to part with a Nazario (or for Chris and John to want to make money and release an updated Nazario with gilt Mercedes hands in the next batch of subs designs)!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Wall o text!!

Heck the gerrymandering and juxtaposition to gain an argumentative advantage alone is enough to prevent any illegal border entry!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> My subs quest is nearly complete: just awaiting someone to want to part with a Nazario (or for Chris and John to want to make money and release an updated Nazario with gilt Mercedes hands in the next batch of subs designs)!


We actually have a follow-up to the Nazario in the works.

It won't have mercedes hands.

Stay tuned...



Rhorya said:


> Wall o text!!
> 
> Heck the gerrymandering and juxtaposition to gain an argumentative advantage alone is enough to prevent any illegal border entry!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Bonus points for the Oliver Twist reference. I'm sure my dad will enjoy seeing that the next time he's lurking in this thread.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Am I the only one seeing an annoying Amazon pop-up ad every time I log onto the forum?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> We actually have a follow-up to the Nazario in the works.
> 
> It won't have mercedes hands.
> 
> ...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Am I the only one seeing an annoying Amazon pop-up ad every time I log onto the forum?


Must be a new thing. I'd never seen a pop-up before today, but just got one.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Likewise. Amazon Prime Day. Just another annoying day when the big A wants to sell you dreck. 

I’d rather get the blue Scorpene.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Thank goodness...I thought I had picked up a virus. 

And no, I haven't been to any unsavory websites...mostly.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Am I the only one seeing an annoying Amazon pop-up ad every time I log onto the forum?


Nothing for me. Then again I use uBlock Origin....


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ok I am _seriously_ digging the "Save The Ocean" Samurai dial. I don't like the Sammy itself, but once you can buy just the dial, I may have to do another Seiko mod project.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yeah, adblock/noscript here. Otherwise WUS (and many other websites) is unusable and, frankly, a severe safety risk.


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm getting one for renault cars, which to me is even more annoying, at least I might buy something from the big A.


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

docvail said:


> I appreciate the context, and am more than willing to extend the discussion, while hoping neither of us is seen as arguing over it.


Got no beef with you. ;-)



docvail said:


> I disagree with your interpretation of the highlighted section, inasmuch as your interpretation is opposite of what I was told by a reputable seller in the EU, and opposite to how it would seem to read:
> 
> View attachment 13307665
> 
> ...


I would rather say that in general, in case of alteration, it (only) allows deductions. In specific cases, it grants the seller the ability to deny cancellations.



docvail said:


> Before we (to include anyone here) get into arguing the semantics or the practical applications, allow me to suggest that in reality, this seems like the sort of consumer protection laws which rarely end up being enforced by legal means. Few people are going to file a lawsuit over an affordable watch.


True, although there are some litigious people around. ;-) And it could be the other way around too - merchants wanting to avoid conflict/law suits/hassle and in consequence yielding to (what they believe to be) unreasonable customers.



docvail said:


> I think it's more likely that sellers with businesses of a size large enough to attract attention have likely consulted with legal counsel about it, to be sure they're compliant with the applicable rules, and sellers who are too small to be worth suing may or may not be overly concerned with compliance.


That is what reason would dictate, but the chaos and confusion arising from GDPR implementation (which did not really come as a surprise) makes me wonder.



docvail said:


> Either way, my advice is what it's always been - it's better to know the sellers' policies BEFORE you buy, and certainly BEFORE you alter the goods' condition, than to proceed recklessly forward, and gripe about the consequences of your own willful ignorance later.


I fully agree, but a lawyer (and a pretty good one, I think) once told me she hardly read T&Cs for standard contracts because the legal framework made companies' leeway for unwelcome surprises fairly small.



docvail said:


> But, regardless, and referring back to the above screen shot, how I read that, and how it's been explained to me, is exactly as I've said - returns for refund may be contingent upon the goods' condition still being "pristine", and we might infer that removing plastic covers on a watch could fall under the heading of "handling the goods more than was necessary", or we might infer that removing said plastic might indicate a watch has been worn, raising "hygiene reasons".
> 
> My personal $0.02 - removing the plastic covers is indeed handling a watch more than necessary to determine if it functions correctly, has any visual defects, and if it meets your overall expectations for quality. I personally am not concerned about the hygiene implications of touching a watch worn by another human, but I know there are other people who are apparently really skeeved out by indirect contact with other humans, and no doubt a skilled lawyer could make an argument that the business has a liability with regards to contagious diseases spread by indirect contact.


I read that, at least in some countries, you are allowed to e.g. assemble furniture to see how they look once finished, without losing your cancellation right. Even if that means the item cannot be resold as new. Whether it is considered normal to remove plastic from a watch or whether it is considered a hygiene item will probably depend on what the judge had for breakfast.



docvail said:


> But, as I said, and at the end of the day, what those rules actually mean, and how they actually get applied is really not my concern, because I'm not in the EU. What does concern me is the widespread commentary by people who believe those rules provide them with an umbrella excuse for all sorts of unethical practices as consumers.
> 
> I've tried to resist the urge to comment in most of the threads, but every time I see some discussion about some issue with some watch, and the ludicrous suggestions that a refund/replacement is due even after the watch has been worn, I cringe. That's my main point - that many people have developed expectations which I think are truly unjust, and those people will often assert that the law is on their side, even if it really isn't.
> 
> ...


I very much appreciate the right to cancel and I think it actually makes me buy more stuff that I am initially not 100% sure about, so I believe that sellers can benefit too. It gives buyers peace of mind. That said, I order only things I want to keep, and if I am not completely sure, I'll treat an item like a valuable loan - very carefully.

Of course, there will always be those who abuse the rules - and who are all the more annoying if they believe it is actually their right.



docvail said:


> I feel I should clarify one point above, vis-a-vis, "The extent to which you can handle the goods is the same as it would be if you were assessing them in a shop."
> 
> The obvious interpretation is that when you're in a shop looking at a watch, it's not covered in plastic, and as such, you'd be allowed to remove the plastic on a watch received by mail, and the seller would still have to take it back, and issue a full refund.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a grey area to me. All the more so as many online shops are unlikely to have a physical shop too, so a judge would have to assume some kind of best practices to judge whether a customer treated an item the way he could have in a shop.



docvail said:


> The point is, I don't really care so much what people's interpretations are, since A) the rules under debate don't apply to me either way, and B) to whatever extent they apply to anyone, they only have as much force of effect as people are willing to bring to bear, and C) if they do support the idea that people can stick a seller with worn goods, and still get a full refund, then they're monumentally stupid rules, and clearly contributing to some people willingly acting monumentally stupid.
> 
> By that middle part (the B clause) I mean, if you're the customer, attempting to get a full refund on a watch after you've altered its condition, over the objections of the seller, what ability do you have to force the issue? A PayPal or credit card dispute? A public shaming? Those would seem to be the only resources at your disposal, and neither seems guaranteed to deliver the outcome you desire.


To the extent that the rules apply to a merchant, "a civil lawsuit" would probably be the correct answer (as a final step). Whether that would be worth it is a different question.



docvail said:


> You know what would guarantee it?
> 
> If you guessed, "not altering the condition before seeking a refund", you're paying attention.
> 
> In speaking to some EU and UK sellers, I've been told they maintain policies similar to those we have in the USA, such that items returned for refund must be in as-delivered condition, which seems both logical and fair to me, notwithstanding the widespread (and silly) opinions to the contrary.


In general, for a watch, I find that a rather reasonable policy. You can normally inspect it from all angles and hold it to your arm without removing a single plastic cover. Still, I believe that different lawyers could come to different conclusions on this one.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Ok I am _seriously_ digging the "Save The Ocean" Samurai dial. I don't like the Sammy itself, but once you can buy just the dial, I may have to do another Seiko mod project.


Recently picked this one up myself. Love it. Awesome dial.


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

I agree that the STO dials look very cool. But, on the Samurai it seems like Seiko designers are enjoying some sort of inside joke competition ... how obscenely short can we make the watch hands relative to the dial diameter and still sell the watch? I think whoever is responsible for the Samurai is in the lead right now even though the competition has been going on for years.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sonic_driftwood said:


> I agree that the STO dials look very cool. But, on the Samurai it seems like Seiko designers are enjoying some sort of inside joke competition ... how obscenely short can we make the watch hands relative to the dial diameter and still sell the watch? I think whoever is responsible for the Samurai is in the lead right now even though the competition has been going on for years.


Samurai in the lead for shortest hands on a Seiko?

You must be joking...










Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

Ah! I was only thinking of the Prospex Diver’s, even though Seiko’s catalog is huge. But, there’s further evidence that this is really a thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Blue Scorpene> other blue watches


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Blue Scorpéne... _Blorpéne_ ?
Blue Barracuda... _Barrabluda_ ?

And of course blue faded Näcken = _Fumécken_. (The non-faded blue Näcken can be called the _Blörcken _).


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Sonic_driftwood said:


> I agree that the STO dials look very cool. But, on the Samurai it seems like Seiko designers are enjoying some sort of inside joke competition ... how obscenely short can we make the watch hands relative to the dial diameter and still sell the watch? I think whoever is responsible for the Samurai is in the lead right now even though the competition has been going on for years.


This one has Seiko beaten by far.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sonic_driftwood said:


> Ah! I was only thinking of the Prospex Diver's, even though Seiko's catalog is huge. But, there's further evidence that this is really a thing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can't tell you how many times I've looked at Seikos and thought, "Love everything about it, except those hands, and don't feel like buying it knowing I plan to mod it with different hands, which would just make it harder to sell, which I'd totally do, as soon as I got bored with it, which always happens sooner than I expect..."


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sonic_driftwood said:


> I agree that the STO dials look very cool. But, on the Samurai it seems like Seiko designers are enjoying some sort of inside joke competition ... how obscenely short can we make the watch hands relative to the dial diameter and still sell the watch? I think whoever is responsible for the Samurai is in the lead right now even though the competition has been going on for years.


I'm not a fan of the rocket hands in general, so those would be out. Right now my thinking is the STO dial in an SPB053. I don't like _those_ hands either though, so I'd probably stick Transocean hands in it, and would probably replace the stock enamel bezel with the Yobokies lumed ceramic MAS style bezel.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FWIW, about the Samurai...

I have the orange dial version. Same hands. In real life, they're fine, at least to me, as I don't ever look at them and think, "Bah! Hands are too short!"

If it were up to me, I'd have made each of the hands 0.5mm to 1mm longer, but that's all. It's definitely not the worst example of T-Rex hands I've seen on a watch designed in Asia.

And that "Doxie" watch just makes my eyes hurt. What sort of dimwit has a cartoon dog as a watch brand logo?

EDIT/PS - About the SBDC053 - that was the other Seiko I got when I bought the Samurai. I wasn't crazy about those hands, either, but again, in person, they don't bother me, style-wise, and they're definitely not offensively short.

I liked the original Samurai better, all around. Better dial, better hands, better case, with those little nubs on the side (still too-short hands, though, and I'm not a fan of titanium).















For me, the ultimate Samurai would be the original dial and handset, with original case design, including those nubs, but in steel, and the NE15/6r15 movement.

And if you're looking for the best-designed Seiko Diver in recent years, this side of the Marine Master 300, I think they nailed it with the LE Sumo from a few years back.









The only thing I don't like about the Sumo is that 44mm case with 20mm lugs. Still don't know what they were thinking there.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'm not a fan of the rocket hands in general, so those would be out. Right now my thinking is the STO dial in an SPB053. I don't like _those_ hands either though, so I'd probably stick Transocean hands in it, and would probably replace the stock enamel bezel with the Yobokies lumed ceramic MAS style bezel.


Really liked the transocean, but for some reason - not sure why, because I wouldn't change it anyways - the integrated bracelet stopped me. Maybe I should revisit?

On the subject of short hands - switching the minute and hour hand on one of these with short hands (where it's hard to tell what's what) might make a great April Fool's joke.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

The hour hand is the ONLY thing stopping me from buying one of these. It's not just that it is short, it is so FAT too! I can't get past it. No offense Doc, but it's one of the things that turns me off from a lot of the NTH subs. Not that the hands are short and fat, but I just don't like snowflake hands. However, I much prefer them over Mercedes hands.

I am intrigued by the scorpene. But sad I missed out on the Amphion, and the main determining factor is the hand set. Every other part of the watches is perfect. I know this is just my opinion, and there is a reason you chose them (no trouble selling them all!) But I can't help but relate those handsets to the watches they originated in.

I also understand that much like wheels for a car, it is borderline impossible to come up with a new hand design, as there isn't much to work with, but I just can't bring myself to buy snowflake or mercedes hands unless they are on a Tudor or Rolex respectively. Even so, the snowflake hands are still ugly to me.

That scorpene blue though. . . I keep thinking about pulling the trigger with some funds the woman doesn't know about.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> And that "Doxie" watch just makes my eyes hurt. *What sort of dimwit has a cartoon dog as a watch brand logo?*


Yeah, right............

A wee bit of self referencing going on here methinks......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> FWIW, about the Samurai...
> 
> I have the orange dial version. Same hands. In real life, they're fine, at least to me, as I don't ever look at them and think, "Bah! Hands are too short!"


I may have asked you this before, but how's the bezel action on your Sammy? I thought maybe it was the aftermarket Crystal Times coin-edge bezel on my SKX that I bought pre-modded that was the reason for the awful bezel action - it bounced up and down between clicks like a pogo stick - but I tried on a Sammy at a Seiko dealer and it did basically the same thing. Terrible feeling action with "you've got to be kidding" bezel hop. Are all cheap Seiko divers like that? I tried on an SPB053 immediately after, and the bezel action on that was about 1000% better.

The SBDC027 "SumoMAS" is indeed a great looking watch. It's funny, I never noticed how fat the lugs are on that case until you pointed it out. And I thought the Rolex Maxi case was bad...

I think they did a great job designing the SLA025, though of course in typical high-end Seiko diver fashion, it's the size of an ocean liner. Also... for some reason I get a "toenail" vibe from the hour hand. It's weird.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> The hour hand is the ONLY thing stopping me from buying one of these. It's not just that it is short, it is so FAT too! I can't get past it. No offense Doc, but it's one of the things that turns me off from a lot of the NTH subs. Not that the hands are short and fat, but I just don't like snowflake hands. However, I much prefer them over Mercedes hands.
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


It's an easy fix. Seiko's automatic diver dials are all the same size, so you can put any of their hands in any watch. 4R, 6R, 8L, doesn't matter. There's also a massive aftermarket supply of Seiko compatible hands, including 62MAS lookalike hands for the SPB051/53.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So this forum has now become an official Seiko forum? Isn’t there already one on tap-to-create-wall-o-text?

Sent by smoke signals on top of a mountain.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Am just gonna leave this here, proceed with whatever random topic you have going on.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I'll follow that with this:


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Keep the train going... (not current, alas...)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I may have asked you this before, but how's the bezel action on your Sammy? I thought maybe it was the aftermarket Crystal Times coin-edge bezel on my SKX that I bought pre-modded that was the reason for the awful bezel action - it bounced up and down between clicks like a pogo stick - but I tried on a Sammy at a Seiko dealer and it did basically the same thing. Terrible feeling action with "you've got to be kidding" bezel hop. Are all cheap Seiko divers like that? I tried on an SPB053 immediately after, and the bezel action on that was about 1000% better.
> 
> The SBDC027 "SumoMAS" is indeed a great looking watch. It's funny, I never noticed how fat the lugs are on that case until you pointed it out. And I thought the Rolex Maxi case was bad...
> 
> I think they did a great job designing the SLA025, though of course in typical high-end Seiko diver fashion, it's the size of an ocean liner. Also... for some reason I get a "toenail" vibe from the hour hand. It's weird.


The bezel action and alignments are perfect on both my Seikos.

I may be living a charmed life.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I like snowflake hands.


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Keep the train going... (not current, alas...)
> 
> View attachment 13313799


Wait, where did you get this BOR bracelet that fits so perfectly? I'll have to get one when I eventually get another sub.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Still think this is the best one of the bunch.









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

SteamJ said:


> Wait, where did you get this BOR bracelet that fits so perfectly? I'll have to get one when I eventually get another sub.


Watchgecko BOR bracelet ( https://www.watchgecko.com/beads-of-rice-by-geckota.php ), and the curved endlinks (iirc the 20mm "rolex sub" version, but I don't fully recall if it wasn't the regular 20mm instead) ( https://www.watchgecko.com/curved-ends-beads-of-rice-geckota.php ).


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

docvail said:


> I like snowflake hands.


Nobody is perfect. ;-)

(The hands on the tropics *are* pretty perfect though.)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Watchgecko BOR bracelet ( https://www.watchgecko.com/beads-of-rice-by-geckota.php ), and the curved endlinks (iirc the 20mm "rolex sub" version, but I don't fully recall if it wasn't the regular 20mm instead) ( https://www.watchgecko.com/curved-ends-beads-of-rice-geckota.php ).


Ugh, hollow / folded end-links.

Can't do it. Spent the better part of an hour trying to bend a pair to get an aftermarket bracelet onto the Helson Sharkmaster. Never got them to sit quite right. Cursed the heavens.

From now on, it's all solid end-links, or GTFO of here.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I wonder. How difficult would it be to change the crystal on the Subs from the stock to an aftermarket "box" sapphire? It looks like box sapphires are the big "in" thing now. Would, e.g., the crystaltimes "top hat" ( https://crystaltimes.net/shop/all/all-products/ct096/ ) fit, or is there a different opening size / smth in bezel that prevents such swapouts?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Ugh, hollow / folded end-links.
> 
> Can't do it. Spent the better part of an hour trying to bend a pair to get an aftermarket bracelet onto the Helson Sharkmaster. Never got them to sit quite right. Cursed the heavens.
> 
> From now on, it's all solid end-links, or GTFO of here.


I completely concur.

*So, when are ya gonna make a solid-endlink BOR bracelet for the subs that we can buy? *

(there wasn't much bending necessary on this particular pairing. Slightly push in the springbar with a springbar tool and done - the fit was near-ideal)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> I wonder. How difficult would it be to change the crystal on the Subs from the stock to an aftermarket "box" sapphire? It looks like box sapphires are the big "in" thing now. Would, e.g., the crystaltimes "top hat" ( https://crystaltimes.net/shop/all/all-products/ct096/ ) fit, or is there a different opening size / smth in bezel that prevents such swapouts?


It's a different crystal size.

I don't like to discuss such things, as I don't support mods of watches we produce, for what I'd think are obvious enough reasons - I don't want to be sucked into dealing with the aftermath of botched / ham-fisted mod attempts.

If you have to mod, mod a Seiko, Invicta, or some el-cheapo Chinese whatever. Please don't modify $600 NTH's. If you screw it up, I can't help fix it.

Plus, c'mon, pencil hands (looking at you, Jelliottz!)? Why not just stab me in the pancreas? It'd be less painful.



X2-Elijah said:


> I completely concur.
> 
> *So, when are ya gonna make a solid-endlink BOR bracelet for the subs that we can buy? *
> 
> (there wasn't much bending necessary on this particular pairing. Slightly push in the springbar with a springbar tool and done - the fit was near-ideal)


My MOQ on bracelets is 300 pieces.

Find 299 friends who also want one, and will pre-pay for them, I'll get 300 of them made tout de suite.

FWIW, I just looked again, and Watch Gecko's price on their BOR bracelets is pretty good, assuming they're good quality.

With bracelets, the design complexity, particularly the number of links across, is a key driver of cost, due to the labor costs involved in assembly. More links = more labor. Add individual polishing and their small size, I figure any BOR bracelet we'd have made would exceed $100 retail, for sure.

The one on the NTH Tropics was about as good as they get. Looking at WG's pictures, the only differences which jump out at me are the clasp and the split pin (rather than screw-bar) attachment.

If the fit was near-ideal, then my guess is the end-links you got were the Rolex links, as I think the profile of the lugs is nearly, if not precisely identical.

A few years back, I had an idea about making good quality "universal" bracelets, which involved making a variety of end-links to fit a lot of common models' lugs, but abandoned the idea after looking into the complexity and costs.

People ask me about whether or not the bracelet for watch A will also fit watch B, because both have the same lug width. It might, but only if you're lucky. More often than not, it's a total crap shoot.

You're not just trying to fit the lug width, you're also trying to fit the shape of the surface between the lugs, the thickness of the links/lugs/case, the lug-hole position, the length of the links/lugs, and the slope of the links/lugs.

When Rusty and I are working on 3D models for new case designs, getting the end-links right is often the most difficult task. What I can imagine, and even draw in 2D, can be difficult to illustrate and machine in 3D.

I had what I thought was an awesome end-link design for the Spectre II. It would have radically changed the look of the watch. But since we were making links to fit cases which we'd already had made, with lug holes already drilled in them, we couldn't make what I wanted, because of the lug-hole position.

It was really disappointing, especially after beating the crap out of Rusty to get him to illustrate it right.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

I just want to contribute to the multiple plot-twisting here. I took a watch (the Halios tropik bronze) to a one-watch-trip and by doing this I thought of the last one-watch-trip, where I took my NtH näcken vintage blue to Switzerland. And in an act of self-implied irony paid a visit to the Patek Philippe Museum in Geneva. I was chuckling. Very quiet and just for myself. And I had to think of it right now. Maybe due to the booze. Nevermind. Cheers!









Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I just want to contribute to the multiple plot-twisting here. I took a watch (the Halios tropik bronze) to a one-watch-trip and by doing this I thought of the last one-watch-trip, where I took my NtH näcken vintage blue to Switzerland. And in an act of self-implied irony paid a visit to the Patek Philippe Museum in Geneva. I was chuckling. Very quiet and just for myself. And I had to think of it right now. Maybe due to the booze. Nevermind. Cheers!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Been to that same museum myself.
Definitely worth a visit if you're in Geneva.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rusty is freaking KILLING it with the 3D renders on the next batch of NTH Subs.

Nailing it like a drunk prom date.

I so wish I could show you, but...we have a plan, and we're sticking to it.

But, I can drop a few hints about what's in store for delivery in October/November...

Two ladies/unisex versions.

Something sort of "field watch-ish", a touch vintage-y, a mildly tweaked spin on a familiar theme.

Not one but two special editions, both of which will be single-source-only exclusives for two of our retail partners. 

Not one but two full-lume dials.

Something completely "outside the box" when it comes to the usual inspirations behind the NTH Subs.

More of the Näcken Renegade and Scorpène Blue.

We're taking the initial concept of the NTH Subs, and starting to expand the boundaries of it a bit more. It'll be interesting to see how people react, especially when it comes to the whole "homage" thing.


----------



## Noro (Jun 16, 2018)

Will all of these upcoming models be in the same existing case or is there a new case design for any of them? I love my Näcken but looking for a new design for my next NTH.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

^^YES! Can you please make a 38mm titanium w/ brass bezel? I'm telling you, 38mm is the sweet spot! (Hahaha, jk, ok, Doc, don't kill me, I had to).

@Noro - in all seriousness, no, they will all the be the same cases as the current subs AFAIK. Unless you're asking will there be a non-Sub model coming too, to which I don't know. I do remember some talk of a new style late 2018 maybe?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

docvail said:


> My MOQ on bracelets is 300 pieces.
> 
> Find 299 friends who also want one, and will pre-pay for them, I'll get 300 of them made tout de suite.


Count me in, so that's the 298 more. Who's keeping the tally?

I do have WG's BOR and solid taper mesh bracelets, with their generic respective folded curved ends, and they fit well enough on my speedy. I didn't bother checking them on my näcken but will order the sub-specific curved ends shortly.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Your killing me doc.

Can I at least hold my Scorpene a few minutes before you have me wanting more


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

You're a dangerous man to know, Doc. I can't wait to see what you have up your sleeve.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The "new NTH Subs" will all be, erm, NTH Subs. If it ain't in that case, it ain't an NTH Sub, is it?

We have been working on other new models for a while, including an updated NTH Tropics, a "basic 3-hander", and maybe a reborn Phantom. All that talk about the Spectre II end-links earlier got me thinking about a revised Spectre. 

Nothing ready for a big reveal just yet.


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

docvail said:


> But, I can drop a few hints about what's in store for delivery in October/November...
> .


Very excited to see what you have come up with. 
If you are aiming for an October/Novemer delivery, when do you plan on releasing the new renders and being open for orders?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WhiteSand said:


> Very excited to see what you have come up with.
> If you are aiming for an October/Novemer delivery, when do you plan on releasing the new renders and being open for orders?


Was just talking to my marketing guy about that today.

In broad strokes, this is the plan:

We should be delivering the current batch of NTH Subs in assembly ahead of schedule, sometime before the end of this month. This is the batch currently in pre-order, which were targeted for delivery in mid-August.

We've been furiously working on the new website, and my hope was to launch the new website in conjunction with the big reveal of the next batch of Subs.

Let's say that happens in the first half of August (and preferably, the first week), we tease out those new NTH Subs over the subsequent 4-6 weeks, then possibly open the window for pre-orders in mid- to late September, which should be 4-6 weeks before we'll have the new Subs in stock (the batch currently in production).

I've been trying to avoid doing the reveal and pre-order of new designs when we still have other new designs yet to be delivered, but we got a little out-of-sync due to the big spike in interest in the Subs that started last fall.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> The "new NTH Subs" will all be, erm, NTH Subs. If it ain't in that case, it ain't an NTH Sub, is it?
> 
> We have been working on other new models for a while, including an updated NTH Tropics, a "basic 3-hander", and maybe a reborn Phantom. All that talk about the Spectre II end-links earlier got me thinking about a revised Spectre.
> 
> ...


Now you have my interest piqued. I like the new Subs, though not quite enough that I feel like I need one back in my life. An updated Phantom though *with 60 minute bezel please* and preferably the Miyota in place of the NH35 would definitely get my attention. I'm also curious about this mysterious 3-hander....


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Sorry to derail again, but I thought I ask the question here, due to doc having an extensive knowledge of microbrand-world. With the majors losing ground in the affordables/midsection and the micros filling that gap since a couple of years - and I don’t know if the peak of micros is due yet - is there a possibility of one of the successful micros being bought by a major? Or are the numbers per single micro still not significant enough to really bother the big players ? 

Maybe this has been asked and answered before, but I didn’t read it then...

Preparing for a WoT(tm) ... 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

docvail said:


> We have been working on other new models for a while, including an updated NTH Tropics, (...)


Now you got me excited.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Updates to the tropics.. Hmm. The Temperates or The Polars?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Sorry to derail again, but I thought I ask the question here, due to doc having an extensive knowledge of microbrand-world. With the majors losing ground in the affordables/midsection and the micros filling that gap since a couple of years - and I don't know if the peak of micros is due yet - is there a possibility of one of the successful micros being bought by a major? Or are the numbers per single micro still not significant enough to really bother the big players ?
> 
> Maybe this has been asked and answered before, but I didn't read it then...
> 
> ...


Yes.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

This has to be said. 

Peak Micro!


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

househalfman said:


> Count me in, so that's the 298 more. Who's keeping the tally?
> 
> I do have WG's BOR and solid taper mesh bracelets, with their generic respective folded curved ends, and they fit well enough on my speedy. I didn't bother checking them on my näcken but will order the sub-specific curved ends shortly.


I'm in. 297 to go!


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> I wonder. How difficult would it be to change the crystal on the Subs from the stock to an aftermarket "box" sapphire? It looks like box sapphires are the big "in" thing now. Would, e.g., the crystaltimes "top hat" ( https://crystaltimes.net/shop/all/all-products/ct096/ ) fit, or is there a different opening size / smth in bezel that prevents such swapouts?


Not trying to start anything here, but here's a thread where someone fitted a Crystal Times CT091 domed sapphire to their Nacken. More subtle than the box crystal. Their watchmaker commented on how hard the bezel was to remove, and ended up leaving it place.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/modders%92-advice-needed-make-nth-sub-thicker-4556953.html


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

What the hey. Make that 296.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> Yes.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Ok

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Something sort of "field watch-ish", a touch vintage-y, a mildly tweaked spin on a familiar theme.


You don't have to take advantage of all my weaknesses, you know.

Side note: I generally enjoy the discussions and WoTs in this thread. Between pictures of nice watches there's insight and knowledge to be found. It's all good and it's actually the only thread on WUS I follow, but please guys, I'm mid vacation, I don't really have time to keep up with all this text right now.

Beating a dead horse: I understand there is mixed feelings about titanium in the watch community, but I have a hard time understanding why. I would agree that for a diver used as a diver, stainless steel is a great choice as the density of water makes weight a non issue. But my impression is that very few are used for diving. Being kind of new to divers, and watches in general, I want to use them as rugged sports watches. And weight has proven to be an issue. When I run or bike or engage in other intense activity, SS diver watches have a tendency to knock repeatedly on the overside of my hand. Even though each knock isn't much to cry about, after some time that point of impact gets pretty soar. It can be avoided by keeping the strap/bracelet very tight, but that's not very comfortable either. I would really want to try a titanium diver to see how that works out, but the market isn't exactly flooded with appealingly designed (slim, simple), mid sized (40ish mm), well lumed tool watches in titanium.
As to the the materials ability to withstand scratches, that's only a problem if I want to sell the watch, and I would normally know before it see any hard use. Personally I don't mind if a tool watch looks like a used tool. I understand Doc won't make my titanium watch, no worries, but if any of you WIS's know where I might look for one, I'll appreciate it.

Guess I participated with quite some text myself. Ha ha

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

On the topic of titanium:

I could get onboard with the light weight. And there is a small amount of "cool factor" in having a watch made out of TITANIUM, as it is a more uncommon metal.

However... most titanium (affordable...) watches I've seen or seen pictures of, usually the titanium is only in a single finish (smth between beadblasted and lightly brushed), which makes for an overall monotonous, dull impression. SS watches (such as the subs) have polished edges and parts that make the whole thing more visually interesting.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I have a couple titanium’s. This metal comes in 5 grades with most watch cases made from the 3 lower grades for cost but it’s also softer so more prone to the occasional ding or scratch. The higher 2 grades are more aircraft grade and more expensive but also harder as a metal to machine and that also makes it more resistant to dings.

The finish is a little lackluster but there are ways to cover that such as PVD or DLC coatings.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Well yeah. The finish is mostly a design choice and not something we can blame the material for. 
Me personally really dislike polished surfaces on a tool watch. I understand I represent a minority, otherwise there wouldn't be so hard to find tool watches without some degree of polished surface, but at the same time I'm a bit surprised that WIS people are into this. We usually have several watches anyway, so I would assume there was an interest for a dedicated, no frills, no bling, tool watch in any collection. It makes sense for mainstream watch companies to do the polishing though. Most watch buyers are probably one watch - non WISers, so it's a rational thinking to get something that is suitable in many settings. Polished details might contribute to that. And as you say, standing there in the shop, comparing watches, most one watch people would probably put their hard earned money on something visually interesting. 

Slow day. More text. 


Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

aicolainen said:


> but if any of you WIS's know where I might look for one, I'll appreciate it.
> 
> Guess I participated with quite some text myself. Ha ha
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


First reasonably priced Titanium diver that springs to mind is the Steinhart. ETA 2892 which is not something you normally see at that price point. Bit bigger than you might want at 42mm x 13mm, but it is 50ATM rated and that's gotta come from somewhere. It's too bad the Shogun is so big, because that's Dia-shield coated and so scratches shouldn't be much of an issue.

The finish is basic "Foghat gray" to quote Bender, but you're not going to get high level Titanium finishing for that kind of money.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> First reasonably priced Titanium diver that springs to mind is the Steinhart. ETA 2892 which is not something you normally see at that price point. Bit bigger than you might want at 42mm x 13mm, but it is 50ATM rated and that's gotta come from somewhere. It's too bad the Shogun is so big, because that's Dia-shield coated and so scratches shouldn't be much of an issue.
> 
> The finish is basic "Foghat gray" to quote Bender, but you're not going to get high level Titanium finishing for that kind of money.


Thanks, Davekaye. I've had an eye on that Steihart for a while, but with every reviewer stating that it wears big because of the flat lugs, I find it unlikely to wear well on my 6 1/4" wrist. I keep hoping for a 39mm version. I like the dull grey finish by the way. I'm weird ;-)

Now, I'm not exactly short on dive watches, so there's really no need for a titanium watch to be a diver, but it has to be rugged. A field watch would work great as well, so long as it has decent WR, screw down crown and sapphire crystal.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I honestly don't know how Steinhart does it. All of their prices seem too low by at least 20%-30%.

Here's the deal with titanium and bronze - no.

I'm not into it, at all. 

Alternative metals need their own tooling, which means another 500 piece MOQ. Bronze and titanium are both going to increase prices, and I just don't feel like dealing with all the BS involved there.


----------



## erikclabaugh (Mar 10, 2011)

docvail said:


> I honestly don't know how Steinhart does it. All of their prices seem too low by at least 20%-30%.
> 
> Here's the deal with titanium and bronze - no.
> 
> ...


Huh, so your reaction is that you would have to work too hard or wouldn't make enough money if you were to meet your followers requests?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

erikclabaugh said:


> Huh, so your reaction is that you would have to work too hard or wouldn't make enough money if you were to meet your followers requests?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You say that like I've never said it before.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Forget this talk about Ti, and bronze. I want my next subs to be Hastelloy C-276 or Inconel 600.


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

Hi aicolainen, if you don't mind quartz check out Bertucci Performance Field Watches. Almost exclusively field watches, these are as tough as it gets outside a G-Shock. Make sure to check out the Certified pre-owned section for some real bargins.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Doc has followers? Did I somehow end up in a cult? Are the Snackers and extended stays in "the basement" a part of the membership privileges? Are uniforms involved? :-s


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Yeah, I think I've come across most of the (production) titanium offerings out there. There are quite a few that are close, but buying and trying everything that's close is an expensive game to play. 
I was more curious to why this apparently perfect watch material (user perspective, not production) has such a limited appeal, and if there might be some hidden gem out there that I have overlooked. 

Otherwise, back to topic. 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> Yeah, I think I've come across most of the (production) titanium offerings out there. There are quite a few that are close, but buying and trying everything that's close is an expensive game to play.
> I was more curious to why this apparently perfect watch material (user perspective, not production) has such a limited appeal, and if there might be some hidden gem out there that I have overlooked.
> 
> Otherwise, back to topic.
> ...


Love my Tempest Commodore. A bit larger but wears well.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> ...I was more curious to why this apparently perfect watch material (user perspective, not production) has such a limited appeal, and if there might be some hidden gem out there that I have overlooked.
> 
> Otherwise, back to topic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


There's no such thing as a "perfect" material. All materials have pros and cons, so far, unless and until one material can be seen as having no disadvantages when compared to all other potential materials.

Titanium is more expensive than steel. That right there, is a con. If my costs go up, my prices go up, and my sales tend to slow down.

Just because SOME people are willing, if not eager to plunk down their money to buy a more expensive titanium watch from me, that doesn't mean there are enough people who feel the same way to justify me getting involved.

Just to put some numbers on this, let's say it takes me 6 months to sell 500 steel watches at $600. Let's say using titanium forces me to raise the price by 20%, to $720. How long would it take me to sell them all, assuming no other changes, so, assume there's a 9015 inside, at that $720 price?

Everything which adds to the price potentially slows sales. I have to thread the needle very carefully, and consider not just the real value of what I'm offering, but the perceived value, and the potential pushback from the market.

The market seems willing to accept a $600-$650 stainless steel diver with 9015 from a micro-brand. Would the market as readily accept a $720 titanium diver with 9015 from a micro-brand? I don't know, but my gut tells me it could be a tough sell.

So...let's say I "upgrade" the movement, to an ETA 2824-2. That's really not a "better" movement, but the market will pay more for it, but now my price has to be $800, or more.

I'm well into "for that price, I want a big-name-brand" territory now.

Let's say I downgrade the movement to a Seiko NH35, and get the price under $600, but, it's still titanium, so let's say it's $550. What happens then?

"For that much money, I'd at least expect a 9015!"

See? For me, this all makes no sense. I can't make the business case for any of it, and so I don't do it.

I stick to my knitting, stay in my wheelhouse, stay with what got me to the dance - stainless steel cases, Japanese movements, prices which stay under the dreaded "for that much money..." talk, etc.

If there was a compelling reason for me to do something, odds are good I'd know it, and I'd already be thinking about doing it.

It's taken me 5 years to even consider doing a ladies/unisex watch. It took 4 years for me to use a Swiss movement. It took 3 years to get me to do a Sub homage. It took 2 years to get me to do a legit diving watch.

All things in good time. Now is not the time for me to do a titanium watch. When it is, you'll know, because I'll be talking about doing one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If I get killed under mysterious circumstances, please, have Rolex/Tudor & Doxa brought in for questioning...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I like the look of the Renegade. Like I said, it's one of the attention getters in this round, other than the blue Scorpene. 

And yes, you have to worry about Rolex/Tudor/Doxa hit squads. Better duck.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> If I get killed under mysterious circumstances, please, have Rolex/Tudor & Doxa brought in for questioning...


You're drugging your cult members with tainted Snackers. Only thing that explains someone preferring a watch made in China over the heavenly heritage packed beauties that are produced by the Swiss angels. :think:


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> Thanks, Davekaye. I've had an eye on that Steihart for a while, but with every reviewer stating that it wears big because of the flat lugs, I find it unlikely to wear well on my 6 1/4" wrist. I keep hoping for a 39mm version. I like the dull grey finish by the way. I'm weird ;-)
> 
> Now, I'm not exactly short on dive watches, so there's really no need for a titanium watch to be a diver, but it has to be rugged. A field watch would work great as well, so long as it has decent WR, screw down crown and sapphire crystal.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


I love mine the mugs are better for natos and straps


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

aicolainen said:


> Thanks, Davekaye. I've had an eye on that Steihart for a while, but with every reviewer stating that it wears big because of the flat lugs, I find it unlikely to wear well on my 6 1/4" wrist. I keep hoping for a 39mm version. I like the dull grey finish by the way. I'm weird ;-)
> 
> Now, I'm not exactly short on dive watches, so there's really no need for a titanium watch to be a diver, but it has to be rugged. A field watch would work great as well, so long as it has decent WR, screw down crown and sapphire crystal.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


The screw down crown is problematic because it's generally not considered necessary on sports and field watches. There is the Oris TT3 though. 41mm, 10ATM rated, screw down crown. OOP as far as I know, but not that hard to find used.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

An interesting note on market preferences. The pastel blue dialed Squale Onda Azzurro sold out nearly instantly. The purple dialed Onda Uva...not so much. Maybe take a pass on doing a purple Sub, doc.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> There's no such thing as a "perfect" material. All materials have pros and cons, so far, unless and until one material can be seen as having no disadvantages when compared to all other potential materials.
> 
> Titanium is more expensive than steel. That right there, is a con. If my costs go up, my prices go up, and my sales tend to slow down.
> 
> ...


OK, perfect was a stretch. I did point out that I was only looking at the user side of things though. 
For me, the pros and cons of titanium seem to make it more perfect than other materials, but I don't seem to represent the majority. 
With the limited market appeal and increased production cost, it's easy to understand why you and many other watchbrands shy away from titanium. 
That part I understand.
From my own limited experience, weight is an issue when being active with these chunks of metal on your wrist, so I just don't understand why titanium isn't more popular from the user side. Then again, judging from photos on IG, the prime activity for diving watches is drinking beer. Nothing wrong with that, and obviously SS should be no issue at all.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Tanjecterly said:


> I like the look of the Renegade. Like I said, it's one of the attention getters in this round, other than the blue Scorpene.
> 
> And yes, you have to worry about Rolex/Tudor/Doxa hit squads. Better duck.


On a more serious note, Doc is running rings around the big boys. Despite his WoT and crazy attitude, he's creative and inventive and comes out with interesting variations of products on a three to six month turnaround. Whereas, we all have to wait till BaselWorld to get a trickle of style changes and then it's trickled out over the following summer. And they're take offs of earlier models and are ooh'ed and aah'ed by the cognoscenti.

In the meantime, Doc's releasing two or three rounds of his NTH subs in the same year and with interesting variations and takes.

You do the math.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

I shouldn't like this combo but somehow it works for me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

To anyone waiting on an NTH Sub pre-order, and in case you didn't get the email we sent out this afternoon, we're about 3 weeks ahead of schedule, and ready to ship all pre-orders next week.

If you'll be traveling and need us to hold your order, or if your address has changed, NOW is the time to let us know, before we ship.

Do me (and yourself) a solid, and use the support form on our website to reach us if you need us to hold or edit your order.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> To anyone waiting on an NTH Sub pre-order, and in case you didn't get the email we sent out this afternoon, we're about 3 weeks ahead of schedule, and ready to ship all pre-orders next week.
> 
> If you'll be traveling and need us to hold your order, or if your address has changed, NOW is the time to let us know, before we ship.
> 
> Do me (and yourself) a solid, and use the support form on our website to reach us if you need us to hold or edit your order.


That ^^, is great news, really looking forward to Scorpene Blue landing in the drop zone. Bucking the trend as usual, Doc under-promises and over-delivers, way to go.....

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

aicolainen said:


> OK, perfect was a stretch. I did point out that I was only looking at the user side of things though.
> For me, the pros and cons of titanium seem to make it more perfect than other materials, but I don't seem to represent the majority.
> With the limited market appeal and increased production cost, it's easy to understand why you and many other watchbrands shy away from titanium.
> That part I understand.
> ...


Agree completely with you. Grade 5 Titanium is lighter and harder than steel. It may not be as nice looking for more dressy watches, but on the tooly side of things it definitely looks awsome too. No downsides except a little increase in price. I'd gladly pay 20% more for Titanium.

I get docs business standpoint too. However, seeing the demand for the subs over a thousand by now, shouldn't there be a demand for 300 titanium ones as well?
Maybe reach out to Steinhart and get some stats on the differences between how their SS and Ti models sell.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> To anyone waiting on an NTH Sub pre-order, and in case you didn't get the email we sent out this afternoon, we're about 3 weeks ahead of schedule, and ready to ship all pre-orders next week.
> 
> If you'll be traveling and need us to hold your order, or if your address has changed, NOW is the time to let us know, before we ship.
> 
> Do me (and yourself) a solid, and use the support form on our website to reach us if you need us to hold or edit your order.


This is great news!

What is your experience with shipping to the EU distributors (Seriouswatches)? What arrival date do you think should we expect?


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Doublepost


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wimads said:


> Agree completely with you. Grade 5 Titanium is lighter and harder than steel. It may not be as nice looking for more dressy watches, but on the tooly side of things it definitely looks awsome too. No downsides except a little increase in price. I'd gladly pay 20% more for Titanium.
> 
> I get docs business standpoint too. However, seeing the demand for the subs over a thousand by now, shouldn't there be a demand for 300 titanium ones as well?
> Maybe reach out to Steinhart and get some stats on the differences between how their SS and Ti models sell.


If Steinhart was willing to play 20 questions with me, ten of them would be related to their production and pricing.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> This is great news!
> 
> What is your experience with shipping to the EU distributors (Seriouswatches)? What arrival date do you think should we expect?


They should have them in stock and ready to ship this week, too.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> There's no such thing as a "perfect" material. All materials have pros and cons, so far, unless and until one material can be seen as having no disadvantages when compared to all other potential materials.
> 
> Titanium is more expensive than steel. That right there, is a con. If my costs go up, my prices go up, and my sales tend to slow down.
> 
> ...


This brings up an interesting follow up as to how one would rank movements in the industry?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> This brings up an interesting follow up as to how one would rank movements in the industry?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


1. Japanese

2. Swiss

3. High-end Chinese

4. Chinese pretending to be Swiss

5. Chinese


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Okay, seriously, I know this is you guys screwing with me...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Okay, seriously, I know this is you guys screwing with me...
> 
> View attachment 13323897


Are you fuming about it?

Are you fuming mad?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> 1. Japanese
> 
> 2. Swiss
> 
> ...


This kind of conflicts with your comment earlier regarding upgrade to a Swiss or downgrade to the NH35, I'm presuming this is using the 9015 as the benchmark?

I'm looking at specific ranking of the Miyota 8215, 9015, NH35, eta 2824 and eta 2892.

Are the Chinese clones like the DG or Seagull better than I know?

Of the Swiss movements how does Sellita or STP rank to the eta?

In my view;

1. Eta 2892 then 2824.
2. Sellita clones even with the extra jewel as a design gimmick in my mind. I place them slightly lower because I've found too many soft metal parts in their keyless works.
3. STP
4. NH35
5. 9015
6. 8215
7. Seagull
8. Chinese clones of 2824

This is just my own opinion on things.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Japanese
> ...


No conflict. Probably "upgrade" in price/cost. Not quality.


----------



## CBM_DOC (Feb 26, 2006)

Aw, come on, man,

Why did you have to post those pics? I thought I was controlling my watch addiction, but now here it kicks in again. That Devil Ray white is just outstanding!

Dave


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> This kind of conflicts with your comment earlier regarding upgrade to a Swiss or downgrade to the NH35, I'm presuming this is using the 9015 as the benchmark?
> 
> I'm looking at specific ranking of the Miyota 8215, 9015, NH35, eta 2824 and eta 2892.
> 
> ...


No conflict at all.

There's what I know, and what people think.

Notice I put "upgrade" in quotes, and note the statement which followed it:



docvail said:


> ...So...let's say I "upgrade" the movement, to an ETA 2824-2. That's really not a "better" movement, but the market will pay more for it, but now my price has to be $800, or more...


I know the 9015 is better all-around than the 2824-2 and its clones. But try telling that to the masses, who think "Swiss" is an "upgrade".

If we're just talking about the "entry level" movements found in affordable watches, and we must get specific, here's how I'd rank them, generally:

1. 9015
2. (tied) 2824-2 / NH35
3. (tied) Sellita SW200 / STP1-11
4. (tied) Seagull ST21/ST18 / Miyota 82xx
5. Swiss/Chinese clones of Miyota 82xx

Bear in mind, my judgments are based on performance for the price, defect rates, internal parts finishing, long-term service/maintenance costs, replacement costs, etc.

I really don't give a crap how other people rank them, unless those other people are also manufacturers, preferably who've dealt with more than 1,000 pieces per calibre.

But that's really the rub, isn't it? As a manufacturer, I have to take into account the opinions of people who don't know what I do.

C'est la vie.


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

The horse is probably dead...

But I think it is shortsighted to think about which movement is better than some other without some idea of what your own plans are for that watch. The only reason I can see why an ETA is an upgrade over a 9015 or NH35/6 is if you plan to keep the watch forever, service it, and pass it down as an heirloom. Seiko is going to discontinue the NH35. As with their older movements (like the 7002), parts and willpower to service them will dwindle and newer calibers might not have suitable dimensions for drop-in replacements. The same might be true of the Citizen...but I might bet the 9015 is around longer. Because so much crap is running an ETA and they haven’t changed that design lately while Seiko has gone through three generations of steadily improving auto movements, I don’t think swiss owners are likely to encounter that problem as quickly. My son will probably be able to get a watchmaker (if they still exist in some form) to service that ETA whereas they would take one look at a mid 2000s NH35 and declare it more trouble than its worth. Of course I don’t have any authority upon which to base my prognostication, but it looks good on paper to me.

If, on the other hand, you just want a watch with the capability to be beat at a reasonable rate and be reasonably accurate that you like wearing for now, I see no reason why any of the movements on everyone’s top 3 would factor into the decision at all aside from the purchase cost. Given purchase costs, you can see how an argument follows that the 9015 is better, all things considered, for most watches. And I believe that’s true.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Because we're about at that point where someone feels obliged to post "this thread needs more pics" . . .

I haven't been able to stop wearing each new sub I've acquired, and this Vintage Blue Nacken is no different. I haven't been able to get it off my wrist for a week.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I can't argue with that. I just received a Dark Gilt Amphion today. I doubt that it will be off my wrist anytime soon. Thanks, Doc!


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> This kind of conflicts with your comment earlier regarding upgrade to a Swiss or downgrade to the NH35, I'm presuming this is using the 9015 as the benchmark?
> 
> I'm looking at specific ranking of the Miyota 8215, 9015, NH35, eta 2824 and eta 2892.
> 
> ...


Put 9015 after the 2892 before the 2824 unless chronometer grade. Nh35 great but looses out on the beat rate... then the list looks good

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sonic_driftwood said:


> The horse is probably dead...
> 
> But I think it is shortsighted to think about which movement is better than some other without some idea of what your own plans are for that watch. The only reason I can see why an ETA is an upgrade over a 9015 or NH35/6 is if you plan to keep the watch forever, service it, and pass it down as an heirloom. Seiko is going to discontinue the NH35. As with their older movements (like the 7002), parts and willpower to service them will dwindle and newer calibers might not have suitable dimensions for drop-in replacements. The same might be true of the Citizen...but I might bet the 9015 is around longer. Because so much crap is running an ETA and they haven't changed that design lately while Seiko has gone through three generations of steadily improving auto movements, I don't think swiss owners are likely to encounter that problem as quickly. My son will probably be able to get a watchmaker (if they still exist in some form) to service that ETA whereas they would take one look at a mid 2000s NH35 and declare it more trouble than its worth. Of course I don't have any authority upon which to base my prognostication, but it looks good on paper to me.
> 
> ...


Not much to argue with there, as it echoes my own thoughts, more or less.

We're talking "affordable" watches, right?

Then I'll take the 9015 over anything Swiss, all day long, because an ETA 2824, even the standard grade, costs more than the 9015, doesn't perform as well as the 9015, and will need to be serviced no less frequently than every 7 years, whereas the 9015 is likely to run for decades, but, at the very least, they've been going for 8 years, and I've yet to hear of one crapping out on anyone due to old age and lack of maintenance.

If having watches serviced is on your bucket list, uhm, okay, feel free to prefer the ETA's, Sellita's and all the other Swiss movements. I kind of like the zero-maintenance profile of the Japanese movements, and don't mind the fact that my Seiko and Miyota-based watches might just stop working in 20-30 years, maybe longer.

If that happens, I'll have gotten more than my money's worth, and saved the hassle and expense of servicing my Swiss-movement-based watches 3-5 times in that period, at a rate of $200-$300 per service, give or take.

Or, we can skip the service, and just replace the movements. One 9015 is $90 online, good for 8 years and counting. One 2824-2 is $180, good for 7 years or less.

Do the math.

Collecting is a hobby. I'm in it for the enjoyment. Even if I flip all my watches before any of the Swiss movement pieces would need serviced - *someone* will need to service them eventually, and if I'm buying used, that *someone* could end up being me. Or, if I'm the one selling, I don't want to deal with the "it'll need service soon" negotiation tactic from prospective buyers.

Is a $500 Hamilton or Tissot REALLY going to be "heirloom" material? Really? C'mon. Style and tastes will surely change by the time any of your progeny inherits your watch, if they're even interested in wearing one.

Aaaaannndddd...considering Swatch/ETA's shenanigans ("we're not selling movements/we are selling movements"), does anyone want to bet their burial expenses replacement ETA's or parts for them will still be available in 30 years? Anyone? Have I mentioned independent watchmakers are having their parts accounts canceled recently?

For those who didn't get the memo...



docvail said:


> The 9015 isn't _on par with_ the venerable 2824. It's actually _better_ than both the standard and elabore grades of the 2824, at a minimum, and arguably better than even the top grade, by most, if not every objective measure.
> 
> The 9015 is adjusted to 4 positions, whereas the standard 2824 is only adjusted to two, and the elabore only to three. Advantage - 9015. You have to get the second-most expensive top version of the 2824 before you've got one that is likely to be as consistently accurate in all positions as the 9015.
> 
> ...


----------



## TypeSly (Jan 9, 2018)

Dr. Vail, 

You make some gorgeous watches! Of all the watches I've ordered in the last few years, I have to say I can't remember being more excited for a watch to arrive, than I am waiting for My Orthos II (Black Cherry) to arrive. 

TypeSly from Canada


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Homage








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TypeSly said:


> Dr. Vail,
> 
> You make some gorgeous watches! Of all the watches I've ordered in the last few years, I have to say I can't remember being more excited for a watch to arrive, than I am waiting for My Orthos II (Black Cherry) to arrive.
> 
> TypeSly from Canada


Thanks, but really, most folks just call me "Chris", "doc", "Vail", or if you're a drunken, ex-pat Portuguese Brit living in Switzerland, "Mad Dog".

"Dr. Vail" is way too formal, and not remotely accurate.

Hope you love the Orthos. The Black Cherry was one of the better colorways, IMO.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I’m completely satisfied with the 9015 movement in my NTH. It’s just as accurate as my Rolex 3186 movement, if not more so. And a helluva lot cheaper.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sonic_driftwood said:


> The horse is probably dead...
> 
> But I think it is shortsighted to think about which movement is better than some other without some idea of what your own plans are for that watch. The only reason I can see why an ETA is an upgrade over a 9015 or NH35/6 is if you plan to keep the watch forever, service it, and pass it down as an heirloom. Seiko is going to discontinue the NH35. As with their older movements (like the 7002), parts and willpower to service them will dwindle and newer calibers might not have suitable dimensions for drop-in replacements. The same might be true of the Citizen...but I might bet the 9015 is around longer. Because so much crap is running an ETA and they haven't changed that design lately while Seiko has gone through three generations of steadily improving auto movements, I don't think swiss owners are likely to encounter that problem as quickly. My son will probably be able to get a watchmaker (if they still exist in some form) to service that ETA whereas they would take one look at a mid 2000s NH35 and declare it more trouble than its worth. Of course I don't have any authority upon which to base my prognostication, but it looks good on paper to me.
> 
> ...


I really doubt getting parts for Seiko movements will be a problem. The 7S26 for example is now 22 years old, and still in active production for who knows how much longer. There are _boat loads_ of them out there, and they are so cheap that you could buy an entire Seiko 5 and never wear it, just keep it as a parts donor for some other Seiko for less than the cost of an ETA service. A LOT less. The NH35/6 is a drop in replacement for the 7S. So is the 6R/NH15.

I could see the multi-hand 6R2x movements being more problematic far down the line because they are so much rarer, but keeping 3-hand Seiko running shouldn't be much of a concern.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

This needs to be bookmarked and stickie'd up for posterity.



docvail said:


> Not much to argue with there, as it echoes my own thoughts, more or less.
> 
> Then I'll take the 9015 over anything Swiss, all day long, because an ETA 2824, even the standard grade, costs more than the 9015, doesn't perform as well as the 9015, and will need to be serviced no less frequently than every 7 years, whereas the 9015 is likely to run for decades, but, at the very least, they've been going for 8 years, and I've yet to hear of one crapping out on anyone due to old age and lack of maintenance.
> 
> ...


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

I too love the nh35 and wish more micros would use it more often. I love the idea that I can swap a whole new movement in myself for $30, and that will be the most expensive service I need to worry about.

When doc said:

"Let's say I downgrade the movement to a Seiko NH35, and get the price under $600, but, it's still titanium, so let's say it's $550. What happens then?"

I thought, 'I take out my wallet, that's what happens!'.


Rhorya said:


> This kind of conflicts with your comment earlier regarding upgrade to a Swiss or downgrade to the NH35, I'm presuming this is using the 9015 as the benchmark?
> 
> I'm looking at specific ranking of the Miyota 8215, 9015, NH35, eta 2824 and eta 2892.
> 
> ...


Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

skunkworks said:


> I too love the nh35 and wish more micros would use it more often. I love the idea that I can swap a whole new movement in myself for $30, and that will be the most expensive service I need to worry about.
> 
> When doc said:
> 
> ...


Ditto

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

docvail said:


> No conflict at all.
> 
> I know the 9015 is better all-around than the 2824-2 and its clones. But try telling that to the masses, who think "Swiss" is an "upgrade".


Question Does the Swiss 2824 movements feel better for everyone? Or is it all in my head???

I have a cheaper 2824 watch (Bulova), it feels great/very little sound/wobble.. comparing it to my other movements, like my Laco. The Laco has what I would describe as wobble.. doesn't feel nearly as nice to adjust (gritty?). While I LOVE the watch.. and it has been 100% reliable... I would absolutely say the 2824 is hands down the better movement...

My Commander 300.. I think feels almost as good as the 2824, but I think winding on the 2824 still feels better.. I don't know what movement level the Bulova has (top?). The Bulova watch was around $250, .. so its actually cheaper than most of my other watches...

Here is my list.. this is purely on feel/sound/wobble

1-Vintage omega movement (1022)
2-ETA 2824
3-Commander 300
4-all my orient watches (I really LOVE THEM)
5-Laco watch (Miyota 821A)
Last - my hand winding Russian watches

Now.. I absolutely don't believe that the 2824 or 1022 movement are the best for watches.. I absolutely fear the 1022 when it comes time to service time..as such I don't wear it very much.

But.. I really do think the Swiss movements I own feel/sound/wobble better... 
(I think the wobble has something to do with the rotor and how it feels when winding)

What do other think?

is this feeling all in my head? . does anyone know why a Swiss movement might feel better?


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

skunkworks said:


> I too love the nh35 and wish more micros would use it more often. I love the idea that I can swap a whole new movement in myself for $30, and that will be the most expensive service I need to worry about.
> 
> When doc said:
> 
> ...


Personally I see the NH35 as a pretty significant downgrade as compared to the 9015. For me it's the beat rate. Much prefer the smoother sweep of the Miyota. But respect the other vantage point.


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

winstoda said:


> Personally I see the NH35 as a pretty significant downgrade as compared to the 9015. For me it's the beat rate. Much prefer the smoother sweep of the Miyota. But respect the other vantage point.


I absolutely do notice the beat rate also.. but how does the NH35 compare to the 9015 in noise/feel? (I don't own a 9015 movement watch yet.. hope to own a NTH one some day).


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Quazi said:


> I absolutely do notice the beat rate also.. but how does the NH35 compare to the 9015 in noise/feel? (I don't own a 9015 movement watch yet.. hope to own a NTH one some day).


You'll hear complaints about rotor noise with the 9015. I own a bunch and it's never bothered me personally...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Pretty darn great in the light 









But this gets me every time 










And my 1.5 ¢ on the movement thing after owning many a watch with many a variety of movements is I prefer the 9015 over all others by a moderate amount.

Of course I did recently receive my membership supply of Snackers which may be influencing my judgement.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Quazi said:


> Question Does the Swiss 2824 movements feel better for everyone? Or is it all in my head???
> 
> I have a cheaper 2824 watch (Bulova), it feels great/very little sound/wobble.. comparing it to my other movements, like my Laco. The Laco has what I would describe as wobble.. doesn't feel nearly as nice to adjust (gritty?). While I LOVE the watch.. and it has been 100% reliable... I would absolutely say the 2824 is hands down the better movement...
> 
> ...


"Feel better"?

That's such a subjective thing.

As objective as I can be, the winding on the Swiss movements (all 2824-2's or clones of the 2824-2) I've had felt like they had more resistance or were louder, when compared to my Japanese movements.

I don't view either as "better". I just view them as having different characteristics of sound and feel.

The 9015 rotor wobble is a consequence of its unidirectional winding. I rarely notice it, and I've never been bothered by it when I have noticed it. In fact, the occasional wobble serves to remind me I'm wearing a mechanical watch, and always gets me to stop and admire it on my wrist.

I don't really do subjective assessments when it comes to component choices. I like the 9015 better than the 2824-2 and its clones for all the reasons I stated, all of which are objective and measurable.

"Feels better", to me, seems a lot like "Swiss better", the usual sort of illogical/emotional rationalization for spending more money to get something which objectively isn't better.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I have never noticed a noise from my 9015 watches unless I put one right at my ear


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

A couple of my 9015 watches have "loud" rotors, but hey, it's that subjective thing as mentioned up-thread, for me, I quite like that mechanical sound in a watch. 

As for the 9015 and NH35, make no mistake, these are very high quality movements that just happen to be inexpensive - I could never use the adjective "cheap" for them. I, for one, am extremely happy with my 9015 and NH35 equipped watches and there is never, ever a moment when I "wish it was Swiss". Anything more than the two Japanese movements is just plucking the Stradivarius string, you can tell the difference? possibly and only slightly; of course, the big diffo as mentioned will be future servicing costs, the 9015 & NH35 will do just nicely thanks.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Ragl said:


> A couple of my 9015 watches have "loud" rotors, but hey, it's that subjective thing as mentioned up-thread, for me, I quite like that mechanical sound in a watch.
> 
> As for the 9015 and NH35, make no mistake, these are very high quality movements that just happen to be inexpensive - I could never use the adjective "cheap" for them. I, for one, am extremely happy with my 9015 and NH35 equipped watches and there is never, ever a moment when I "wish it was Swiss". Anything more than the two Japanese movements is just plucking the Stradivarius string, you can tell the difference? possibly and only slightly; of course, the big diffo as mentioned will be future servicing costs, the 9015 & NH35 will do just nicely thanks.
> 
> ...


I've never wished any of my few NH35's were Swiss. I have however wished they were 9015's.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

winstoda said:


> I've never wished any of my few NH35's were Swiss. I have however wished they were 9015's.


The 9015 has been my preference. Keeps great time, no issues so far. The NH35 is fine, but the 9015 has been generally more accurate for me. Only have a couple Swiss movements, and they're no better than the 9015 (at beat) and usually less accurate at higher cost.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Non sequitur...

Last week was my wife's birthday. I bought us Cirque du Soleil tix for the family as a gift.

The show was "Volta". We went last night, and I highly recommend it.

If you want to go, don't feel compelled to upgrade to higher priced tickets. There's no bad seat in the tent. Also, we received a 30% off coupon in the mail last week, after I'd already bought the tickets, so don't buy tickets too far in advance.

Last thing, for some reason, I got the impression from the CDS website that the show was four hours long. It isn't. It's two hours with a 25 minute intermission.


















Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

I'm a newbie, but I agree that there is a subjective feeling of quality in operating my three ETA movements. Mainly related to hand winding, which ironically is supposed to be their weak spot. 
Nothing wrong with my two 9015s, it's just different in a way that inspires slightly less confidence. Actually, IIRC my STP feels slightly similar. 
My current Seiko movements are both 1. Gen Monsters, so no hand winding to compare. Feels solid though. My first NH35 should arrive by end of July, so that will be interesting. 
I guess it's like comparing Japanese and German cars. One is expensive and feels very tight and well built. The other is affordable and doesn't inspire the same level of confidence, but will run forever. 
In cars I tend to choose German anyways, but for a movement hidden inside a watch, I couldn't care less.


Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Just contributing some of my own subjective experiences, for what little it's worth.



docvail said:


> "Feel better"?
> 
> The 9015 rotor wobble is a consequence of its unidirectional winding. I rarely notice it, and I've never been bothered by it when I have noticed it. In fact, the occasional wobble serves to remind me I'm wearing a mechanical watch, and always gets me to stop and admire it on my wrist.


The first *9015*-powered watch I bought was a Tissel flieger, and I was so surprised and unused to the feel and sound of the loose and audible rotor that I thought something was wrong, inquired with Tissel, and ended up flipping the watch not long thereafter because I just felt unsure about the experience. (Plus I started to move up the price spectrum and decided that if I was going to keep a flieger in the collection, it might as well be one from a historical manufacturer like Stowa.)

Fast forward to now, I own several NTH Subs. I've definitely gotten used to the 9015 rotor experience, and like Doc, the rotor experience now serves to occasionally remind me that I'm wearing an intricate little self-propelled machine on my wrist. I also sometimes flick my wrist to spin it when I'm bored--the joys of being an affordable automatic watch collector 

Another thing I've noticed about the winding and screw down of the 9015 is that it seems somewhat crown-dependent: one of my Subs has a more "sandy" feeling and sound when winding and screwing down it's crown, so I assume there's a slight deviation of this crown relative to the crowns in the other two Subs that I have.

I've had several *NH35*-powered watches: mostly Invicta 8926s and Nodus watches. My reaction to the movement has been, "what an awesome little bang-for-buck/cheap movement that hacks and winds well and seems to keep time just fine, but I slightly prefer the higher 28.8k beat/hour rate."

I have an *ETA 2824-2* in my Glycine Combat Sub, and I've probably had it in another watch or two that I've flipped. The rotor is quieter than the 9015 but otherwise the winding experience has seemed pretty much on par between the two (a little scratchy, not too much sandy noise). I trust that if I timed two of my watches with these respective movements inside, I'd find the accuracy of them to be way closer than I ever notice or care about when actually wearing a watch.

My CW C60 Trident Pro is powered by a *Sellita SW200-1*. I was very impressed by the initial buttery operation of the crown, but it seems to have gotten more scratchy feeling and sounding over time. The rotor is quiet, which I like.

I have an NTH DevilRay, which of course has an *STP 1-11* inside. I'm fond of the Sellita because it was the first non-vintage Swiss movement I experienced, but I don't notice any qualitative differences between operating or wearing it or the STP.

I've only had a Seagul 1963 so I can't compare that movement because it was a chrono (nicely/brightly decorated, although perhaps a bit too childish of a motif).


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

So getting back to materials that we know future NTH Subs won't be made out of - what are your thoughts around carbon forged cases? Been flirting with the idea of picking one up just for the uniqueness of it... either the Tempest, Lum-Tec or Helson.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'd have to defer to my watchmaker for a definitive take on the matter of hand-winding feel, but my hunch is the feel is largely the result of the design of and lubrication present within the keyless works. Though I suppose crown diameter, and maybe even stem length may play some part.

If something doesn't feel "right", that's probably an indication something is wrong, not a fair indication of what all those movements are like.

The point is, I don't really understand how anyone could have "more confidence" in one movement versus another based solely on the subjective assessment of preferring the feel of one movement over another while hand-winding either. 

The feel just is what it is. From what I've seen, the Miyota and Seiko are far more resilient and robust than anything "Swiss" within the affordable range, regardless of how any of them "feel".

The German/Japanese car analogy always cracks me up, having had Germans tell me their cars aren't much good past their warranties, whereas modern Japanese cars seem all but indestructible, at least mechanically.

My wife has managed to break 2 out of 4 of the front AC vents in her Acura. I'm not sure whether to blame the Japanese or my wife. But it's 12 years old, with over 120k on the odometer, and still runs very well, despite our always being a bit behind in routine maintenance.

My VW Passat is 17 years old, with over 120k on the odometer. It still runs, but I rarely drive it, and it wouldn't pass the annual emissions inspection were it not for my low-mileage-per-year exemption. More than half the radio buttons don't work. The interior is falling apart. All the bushings on the engine mounts need replaced, it leaks oil, and it needs new catalytic converters. Recently I've been feeling/hearing a "thunk" during some gear changes.

I'm not looking to start a big thing with everyone feeling compelled to defend their personal preferences about movements or cars. Your preferences are your own, as are your justifications/rationalizations for having those preferences.

My point is, as the manufacturer, I have to consider things like defect rates, production and returns costs, "PITA" factors like ease of sourcing, market forces on pricing, etc, and make the best component choices I can. 

If you agree with my choices, you're probably a customer, maybe even a repeat customer. If you don't agree, then you're probably not, but that's cool. No one HAS to buy a watch from me.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

I must be the only one here preferring the rotor noise. Isn't it weird that some people complain about it for what it is... We deliberately buy mechanical watches which work by mechanical movements of metal gears and are then annoyed to hear them?! 

I thought it was enjoyable to hear the rotor move but maybe that's just me.

Edit:
Just to add. While I had many Seikos and was not happy with movement accuracy on some I really like the way they wind. I also have an Omega Dynamic and the winding sound feels like c**p. (Performance is excellent on the other hand)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> So getting back to materials that we know future NTH Subs won't be made out of - what are your thoughts around carbon forged cases? Been flirting with the idea of picking one up just for the uniqueness of it... either the Tempest, Lum-Tec or Helson.


Meh.

Nothing against them, but I don't really see the point, either.

Seems a bit gimmicky to me, and I don't really get the cost vs utility there. At least with titanium, it's lighter and/or harder. But what's the huge benefit of carbon forged cases which justifies their big increase in cost?

And, again, when there's something which increases cost, I'm leery of getting into the whole "for that price, I expect a name brand/better movement" debate with people.

Plus, I've felt them. They feel weird to me, like too light and plasticky.

That said, I had considered, and even looked into, using the material for bezel inserts. Can't remember if I decided against it, and why, or if I just never got too far into it before getting side-tracked with something else.

I'm not a big fan of doing things differently for difference's sake. I'm a big fan of doing things which are better, but only if "better" can be quantified, or at the very least, qualified in some way.

Quantified - costs less, easier to maintain, easier to replace, stronger, harder, lighter, etc.

Qualified - has pros which arguably offset the cons, depending on your view.

I need to get back into the pursuit of using a better grade of steel. I love steel, and I think I'd love a better grade of it even more. I just haven't had the time to explore it more, what with the delays on the DevilRay and increased NTH Subs production. I had been thinking of looking into it for an all-new model, but I haven't been able to work on any all-new models in months.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> Non sequitur...
> 
> Last week was my wife's birthday. I bought us Cirque du Soleil tix for the family as a gift.
> 
> ...


Saw Luzia last year and that was also an excellent show. For what they do, a Cirque performance is a well spent evening out.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Language barrier, maybe? 
I did say ETA (and German cars) gives a feeling of quality. I did not, even slightly, indicate that they actually are (better).

It's like this with a lot of things. Right out of the box, my 1911 did inspire more confidence than my Glock. Anyone into guns can probably guess which one require more maintenance. I knew it would be like that, but I like them both for different reasons. 

Miyota (9015) has become my preferred movement, very much thanks to Docs educational walls of text, but if a watch I like has a 2824 or a (swiss) clone of it, that won't turn me off.

NH35 is a slight turn off because of the low beat rate, but I do not doubt its quality. NH35 is absolutely not a deal breaker, but I would always opt for 9015 if there was a choice. I'd probably opt for swiss 28.8k as well. 

In-house would be a big turn off. 

Chinese is probably a deal breaker.


Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Doc....you must have been a real looker when younger....


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

When I was getting into watch modding and building as a hobby years ago I was tutored by a very good watch-smith who informed me that most movements are not properly lubricated and that is why you hear or feel the dryness of the meshing of the keyless works and gears when hand winding. I use a tiny tiny tiny drop of carbon nano-oil on the keyless and the auto-wind gear train and that has made my watches all wind smoothly and quietly. But that’s what I do. And as I said it’s a very very small droplet. A little goes a long way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> Doc....you must have been a real looker when younger....


I was.

Now I'm just a way better lover.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

You know you're building out shipping zones for a new website when you realize Suriname is in South America, not Asia, Svalbard and Jan Mayen are autonomous regions of Norway, and Bouvet Island is an uninhabited dependency of Norway.

Also, what's up with Norway having uninhabited dependents? If the island is uninhabited, why is it dependent on anybody? That makes no sense. Is Norway the European version of the guy who pays child support for the kid who isn't even his?

Also, apparently there's no way to deliver anything to Guernsey, and a lot of places which are "in Europe" are not actually in Europe, like Mayotte (sorry to all the French citizens who live there, but if your tiny little island is between Africa and Madagascar, you're in Africa, not Europe), and Turkey. But apparently Azerbaijan is "in Asia", even though it's right next to Armenia, which is "in Europe", and it's way more "in Europe" than Turkey is.

I was disappointed to learn the Isle of Man only has one "N", and under the heading of "How can there be an 'Isle of Man' but no ____", I was REALLY disappointed to learn there's no such place as "Whore Island".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> Language barrier, maybe?
> I did say ETA (and German cars) gives a feeling of quality. I did not, even slightly, indicate that they actually are (better).
> 
> It's like this with a lot of things. Right out of the box, my 1911 did inspire more confidence than my Glock. Anyone into guns can probably guess which one require more maintenance. I knew it would be like that, but I like them both for different reasons.
> ...


Uhm...was this directed at me?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think I said you said they were better. I was only responding to the points you and others made related to "feel".


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> You know you're building out shipping zones for a new website when you realize Suriname is in South America, not Asia, Svalbard and Jan Mayen are autonomous regions of Norway, and Bouvet Island is an uninhabited dependency of Norway.
> 
> Also, what's up with Norway having uninhabited dependents? If the island is uninhabited, why is it dependent on anybody? That makes no sense. Is Norway the European version of the guy who pays child support for the kid who isn't even his?
> 
> ...


And St. Pierre & Miquelon are part of the EU even though they're just off Newfoundland. I should have taken Advil PM...


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Uhm...was this directed at me?


Well, I'm Norwegian, so that depends

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## NoTimeToLose (Sep 23, 2016)

Heh. It's the 'Isle of Man', but is also referred to as just 'Mann' (it loses the 'Isle of' but gains the extra 'n').


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh, over 150 countries now programmed into the shipping zone settings, 22 more to go.

How is "Christmas Island" a real place, yet "the Island of Misfit Toys" isn't?

"South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands" makes me hungry for hot spicy barbecue and ice-cold sweet tea.

I propose all countries ending in "-stan" be joined into one self-existential nation, "The Stan's Republic of Stanistan", and everyone from there will just be called "Stan".

Did you guys know there's a "Saint Martin" and a "Sint Maarten", and they're attached to each other on the same island? Those are two distinct shipping locations. I don't know if that makes me angrier at the French on the north side or the Dutch on the south side.









I'm just assuming they don't get along, got to fighting (notice the bruises each sustained, in red) and at some point they drew a line across the middle of the island, and said, "stay on your side of the line", like in a '70's sitcom.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> Ugh, over 150 countries now programmed into the shipping zone settings, 22 more to go.
> 
> How is "Christmas Island" a real place, yet "the Island of Misfit Toys" isn't?
> 
> ...


I suggest you avoid shipping to the Oyster Pond in the south-eastern part of French St. Martin.  - or include a surplus of that mojo-flavored snacks to fanboy them accordingly .

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Watches? What a novel idea.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*INCOMING!!!*









Sooo glad that I'm not Stan from ###stan..........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> Ugh, over 150 countries now programmed into the shipping zone settings, 22 more to go.
> 
> How is "Christmas Island" a real place, yet "the Island of Misfit Toys" isn't?
> 
> ...


The Dutch side has casinos and the French side topless beaches. Great place to vacation.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Watchgauge :think:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Watchgauge :think:


Huh?

Is this about John from WG not shipping yet?

He literally just got back from being out of the country. I sent him the inventory for Watch Gauge while he was gone, but FedEx wouldn't leave it without him signing for it, so he will hopefully have it today, and be getting his orders out before the end of this week.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Huh?
> 
> Is this about John from WG not shipping yet?
> 
> ...


|>


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Devil Ray today








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

Damn you Chris. 
I had to order the Nacken Renegade. The video was just too cool. I'll probably replace my scorpene (bc mine is no date, and I've noticed I really miss the date on casual watches. 

Sad I missed out from ordering from you (rewards points, codes, you get more profit....)

But if I ordered from serious watches does that mean the watch goes from China to Pa to Europe back to Utah?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Perdendosi said:


> Damn you Chris.
> I had to order the Nacken Renegade. The video was just too cool. I'll probably replace my scorpene (bc mine is no date, and I've noticed I really miss the date on casual watches.
> 
> Sad I missed out from ordering from you (rewards points, codes, you get more profit....)
> ...


That's what it means.

It's all good. I'm sure we'll have other stuff you like enough to cash in the points soon enough.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Don't remember who tipped me off on the EO strap, but that was good advice. Looks great and the colour scheme is a perfect fit for my morning coffee.









Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Well, the consignment from SeriousWatches has been delivered, looks like the Full-Kit, which includes a Stroopwafel and a mandatory re-branding of my surname which now makes me an honorary Dutchman.... Good thing my surname wasn't Swordfists........ Come back soon and I should have the big reveal ready by then...........









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Ragl said:


> Well, the consignment from SeriousWatches has been delivered, looks like the Full-Kit, which includes a Stroopwafel and a mandatory re-branding of my surname which now makes me an honorary Dutchman.... Good thing my surname wasn't Swordfists........ Come back soon and I should have the big reveal ready by then...........
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


Stroopwafel = Dutch Snackers.

The cult has officially gone global.

Ps: if that is a Scorpene wrapped in there please whatever you do, DO NOT SHOW PICS IN HERE. The wait for mine is killing me. o|

Or maybe show some. Might help me pass the time. :think:

On third thought, DON'T. :-|

Or maybe just a few.... :-!

(Kudos Doc for getting these out much earlier then expected. :-! That however is not calming the inner child in me that wants it yesterday. :-( )


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> Stroopwafel = Dutch Snackers.
> 
> The cult has officially gone global.
> 
> ...


It's too Late!! I've taken them already......

Grail or what.........

















Cheers,

Alan


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> Doc....you must have been a real looker when younger....


Right? I still don't get it. I mean, maybe he got her really drunk, but to keep her drunk for years?



docvail said:


> I was.
> 
> Now I'm just a way better lover.


Eww...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Ragl said:


> It's too Late!! I've taken them already......
> 
> Grail or what.........
> 
> ...


Looks great. Really can't wait to get mine.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> GlenRoiland said:
> 
> 
> > Doc....you must have been a real looker when younger....
> ...


Made me spit out Pringles cheddar cheese chips on the jersey shore. And I love those cheddar cheese Pringles.....


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> Looks great. Really can't wait to get mine.


Thanks, and I can promise you that it looks even greater in the "flesh", if ever there was a watch for summer........

Here it is, soaking up the evening rays.......









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Thanks, and I can promise you that it looks even greater in the "flesh", if ever there was a watch for summer........
> 
> Here it is, soaking up the evening rays.......
> 
> ...


Looks great/great pics, Alan. Glad you like it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Stroopwafel = Dutch Snackers.
> 
> The cult has officially gone global.
> 
> ...


I think most, if not all of our pending pre-orders were shipped yesterday, and I think Watch Gauge's are set to be shipped within the next two days.

Some folks who pre-ordered from my site should be getting their watches today.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

@Ragl - not for nothing, but as you're 4 or 5 hours ahead of where I am, is it too early for a lume shot?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> @Ragl - not for nothing, but as you're 4 or 5 hours ahead of where I am, is it too early for a lume shot?


timing is good.......









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Hi there,

My first NTH Sub finally arrived! Today was home office day and I was lucky enough to spot the UPS guy before he stopped the car. Not a new model but by far my favorite. Over the last few months I managed to sell and give away all my watches except for an Omega that's hard to sell and the GW-5000 that will stay.

Glad I did and I try to live more minimalistic in all areas of life. I was thinking about doing a review but there are so many and people already made most/all of my points. I plan to leave the forum for the future and do a review next year. I was playing with the idea of doing a travel blog with the NTH. There is a guy in the public forum that does this with his Explorer and I liked the idea. Will see if I find the time for this but for now I will just collect photo material. I plan to wear it 24/7 in all situations just like I did before with the G-Shock GW-5000. Over the last 6 months or so I really enjoyed being a one watch guy.

The Näcken looks really amazing! This is my first snowflake hour hand and no date watch and I like the features more than I imagined. The lume markers remind me of feta cheese which I just had for dinner. I was afraid about the size but it fits perfectly even on my minion sized wrist. 
Also thanks to SeriousWatches for the Stropwaffel and great service! (I was living on those during my stay in Utrecht)

*Here she is!*


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Ragl said:


> timing is good.......
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


Ok now your just rubbing it in :-|


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Ragl said:


> Thanks, and I can promise you that it looks even greater in the "flesh", if ever there was a watch for summer........
> 
> Here it is, soaking up the evening rays.......
> 
> View attachment 13332553





Ragl said:


> View attachment 13332937


Yer killin' me...


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Seikogi said:


> The lume markers remind me of feta cheese...


@docvail, I expect to see this quote in all of your Nacken marketing going forward. |>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> @docvail, I expect to see this quote in all of your Nacken marketing going forward. |>


Way ahead of you...


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Just gonna leave this here

































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

__
http://instagr.am/p/Bloy6-GlTv0/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

EL_GEEk said:


> Just gonna leave this here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh damn


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

EL_GEEk said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/Bloy6-GlTv0/
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Amazeballs with awesomesauce.

I had no idea your hands could move that fast, Marcos!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Cool 

The Bluracuda looks very nicely proportioned and "dressy". And the Blorpéne is amazing, too. Somehow the sunburst just *works* on it. 

Now looking forward to seeing some Fumécken shots.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

docvail said:


> Amazeballs with awesomesauce.
> 
> I had no idea your hands could move that fast, Marcos!


Haven't you read my resume? Under Special Skills: fastest hands on Broadway 

"Time is too short, buy all the watches you like"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

FWIW, I ordered from Serious Watches and got a shipping confirmation this morning. I figured it'd be a week or so to hit the West coast. Nope. Delivery scheduled for Thursday. So not much wait for the state-side orders. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

EL_GEEk said:


> Haven't you read my resume? Under Special Skills: fastest hands on Broadway
> 
> "Time is too short, buy all the watches you like"
> 
> Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

docvail said:


> You know you're building out shipping zones for a new website when you realize Suriname is in South America, not Asia, (...)


That one tends to get me every time.



docvail said:


> (...) a lot of places which are "in Europe" are not actually in Europe, like Mayotte (sorry to all the French citizens who live there, but if your tiny little island is between Africa and Madagascar, you're in Africa, not Europe), and Turkey.


I would say Mayotte is in the Indian Ocean. ;-) Turkey is partially in Europe, the bigger part (East side of the Bosporus) is in Asia. That's why Istanbul is on two continents.



docvail said:


> But apparently Azerbaijan is "in Asia", even though it's right next to Armenia, which is "in Europe", and it's way more "in Europe" than Turkey is.


Armenia, according to Wikipedia, is "Located in Western Asia".



docvail said:


> Did you guys know there's a "Saint Martin" and a "Sint Maarten", and they're attached to each other on the same island? Those are two distinct shipping locations. I don't know if that makes me angrier at the French on the north side or the Dutch on the south side.


Especially Sint Maarten's airport is a favorite for spotters:


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Cool
> 
> The Bluracuda looks very nicely proportioned and "dressy". And the Blorpéne is amazing, too. Somehow the sunburst just *works* on it.
> 
> Now looking forward to seeing some Fumécken shots.


Totally agree on the Barracuda. Reminds me of my Seamaster which I know makes little sense but I get the same dressy vibe from that one too. Was really difficult choosing one Sub from this latest round but glad I chose that one. The applied indices are just so classy looking.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I can't post a link, but if you guys like the looks of this, Google "Northwind Armstrong".









The guy behind the project, Lee Smith, has been an AD for L&H in the UK the last couple years, and he's a good bloke.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

EL_GEEk said:


> Just gonna leave this here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If only I didn't despise snowflake hands....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> If only I didn't despise snowflake hands....


You have to leave now...

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> If only I didn't despise snowflake hands....


More the jazz hands type?


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

These: 

Or these:


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

I can't believe I'm the first to post the infumeous renegade LMAO

Very, very pleased with this. Great work, doc


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mattm0691 said:


> I can't believe I'm the first to post the infumeous renegade LMAO
> 
> Very, very pleased with this. Great work, doc


The pheeeyooo maiyee dial. Very nice. Made by Keebler elves in a tree with torches


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Quick and dirty shots of My NTH snowflakes


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

I have to say, this renegade is a home run. I've spent the past few hours examining it minutely, wearing it, and comparing it to other watches.

In the flesh, the quality seems indistinguishable from my black Bay, with the exception that the black Bay seems to have a more coarse brushing pattern, and the bracelet and clasp are much better. The watch heads though, the finishing levels and the execution of the dial, are just about on par. 

Of course with the exception that the nacken is actually possible to wear comfortably, being so much thinner , and the fact that it's about 1/5 the price.

I am so tickled by this one


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

yankeexpress said:


> Quick and dirty shots of My NTH snowflakes


Pretty impressive those are almost accurate with each other to the second. And the silver bezel is growing on me.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Stop these renegade pictures. Stop them. My trinity would be: näcken vintage blue and vintage black and renegade. Similar To yankeexpress‘ Shot except for the barracuda. 

Very nice pictures. Somehow I am reminded of that matrix pattern, when neo starts to „see“. 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

While I'm allergic to gilt, I really like the Barracuda. I hope that a new round comes along with that one.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Re: movements. I've never noticed any of my 9015s physically "wobbling" the way some folks have. I certainly have heard the rotor free spinning, but it mostly doesn't bother me, at least it didn't in my NTH, and it doesn't in my Aevig. It doesn't happen that often, and when it does it's not that loud. The rotor in my Visitor VPO was certainly louder than I would've liked. Not sure if that was because of the custom rotor, or because it had a display back, or both. Display back watches in my experience do seem to be louder than watches with solid steel backs...though neither of my Seikos with display backs are loud at all. Overall I like that it's an affordable, robust, 4Hz movement that is both inexpensive to service or outright replace if necessary. Winding feel is a very subjective thing. Compared to the STP, the 9015 I think is a bit less "clicky" as it winds, and a bit more "sandpapery" in how it sounds, but I no longer own any STP powered watches so I can't do a direct A/B at the moment. I can however say though that the rotor noise that the STP makes is far more offensive than the 9015. It doesn't free spin, but if you wobble your wrist back and forth it makes a rather unpleasant scraping noise.

So far the only watch that I've sold because I didn't like the noise it made was my Zodiac Sea Wolf, and that was actually due to the balance wheel. It ticked so loudly that you could hear the watch in a quiet room at arm's length, and that eventually got on my nerves. I don't have enough experience with the STP to know if that was my particular example or not, but I can say that my Borealis with the STP wasn't nearly as loud. Could be a display back thing (Zodiac had one, Borealis did not) or maybe not. I may get a ZO9258 at some point, and I suppose I'll find out if/when I do.

Switching crown positions and re-engaging the threads seems to be pretty much entirely crown dependent as opposed to movement dependent. The 7S26 in my SKX is horrible in this regard. "Seiko parts" sells an aftermarket replacement crown/stem that is claimed to fix the wobbly, extremely vague feeling crown, and I may eventually opt to do that mod just because it's kind of a pain to set that watch because of the crap stock crown. The Zodiac switched positions fine, but was very reluctant to screw back down at first, which seemed to improve as it broke in a bit. The Borealis (also STP) was vastly better in that regard. My NTH was better at both than my Aevig is, but I think that's mostly the design/shape of the crown. The Aevig's is very small and slippery in the hand. The best I've yet experienced in this regard though is my new Evant Decodiver. That crown is similarly sized to the Aevig's but far easier to grip, and it _thunks_ between positions with a really satisfying resistance. You _know_ when it's at position 2 or 3 with 100% certainty.

I suppose it's worth mentioning that my 6R21 powered Seiko SDGC is ~7 years old, and definitely needs service. It's running at a consistent -27s/day, and the ratchet wheel is scratched, which is definitely not unheard of with Seiko movements. So while you're likely to have longer service intervals with less issues than Swiss, it's not an absolute guarantee.

Re cars: basically same deal. Acuras were once reliability all stars, now they are thoroughly average. Honda also has a pretty poor track record with new transmission designs going back at least 15 years, which has continued to present day. Nissans decades ago were similarly indestructible, but that's long gone. Google "Nissan CVT problem" and prepare yourself. Same with "Subaru head gasket issue" or "oil consumption." Even Toyota, Japan's shining star of reliability is not totally immune from issues here and there, and certainly anecdotally they make lemons just like everybody else. My Lexus SC was an absolute piece of garbage that basically fell to pieces and munched on O2 sensors like a bag of popcorn. Then there's..ahem..Takata. Japan is most certainly not above cutting corners, even if the results are extremely deadly.

The Germans seem to be doing better lately, to a degree. Porsche's engines no longer tear themselves apart on a whim. BMW certainly has improved since the N54 days where each morning required a prayer that the high pressure fuel pump would still work, but they still have a lot of dumb engineering issues that should've been fixed long ago. Germany's bright spot, amazingly, is Audi, once the black sheep that now is consistently beating Munich and Stuttgart in quality rankings. For what it's worth, I don't consider diesel-gate to be a "problem" so much as them trying to prop up a fuel that is long past its prime in passenger cars. From what I've been able to gather diesels _all_ do far worse in the real world than the static emissions tests, the VW group was just cheating more than other brands, and they got caught first.

For the good ole' USA, it seems to be a model by model crap shoot. Lincoln MKC? Shop queen nightmare. Lincoln MKZ? No significant issues. Always do your research when car shopping folks, regardless of brand/country of origin.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, as always, I'm very happy when others are happy with my team's work. 

If I fail to acknowledge your compliments appropriately, please don't think me rude or ungracious. Part of it is that I've never been that great at receiving compliments, part of it is that by the time you guys get a watch, my own excitement has somewhat passed, and I'm focused on whatever's next on my agenda.

I do sincerely appreciate the compliments, and I am sincerely happy when my customers are happy.

Thank you all. Enjoy the watches. Let us know if they give you any trouble.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Go sniff some phummay!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I am holding of on getting another version of the sub as am hoping that in the near future there is a sub without the bezel and something similar to the sinn 556i. Black Scorpene with smooth fixed bezel. Something in between field/dive/aviation watch. Just saying.


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

As happy as I am to be on vacation with my family (and even my in laws) I'm Jonesing to get home to open my awesome nth package. The new renegade pics. wow. I love the detail, but I also love how the watch seems readable in almost any light. Oh man. Counting the days. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I am holding of on getting another version of the sub as am hoping that in the near future there is a sub without the bezel and something similar to the sinn 556i. Black Scorpene with smooth fixed bezel. Something in between field/dive/aviation watch. Just saying.


+1.


----------



## helot (Jun 27, 2018)

docvail said:


> But, I can drop a few hints about what's in store for delivery in October/November...
> 
> Something sort of "field watch-ish", a touch vintage-y, a mildly tweaked spin on a familiar theme...
> 
> ...


I'm really curious about the above. I've been considering all manner of "field watches" of late from the Aevig Corvid, and MK 11 Hawkinge to variations of the Omega Seamaster/Railmaster and the Tudor North Flag. I'm really curious to see what docvail conjures up. Patiently waiting for the big reveal. Oh, and I should be picking up my Tiburon on Saturday morning from the local FedEx.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

MikeyT said:


> If only I didn't despise snowflake hands....


Me too, seen plenty of "gotta haves" and then I see the snowflake hands, this is followed by deeply sighing........ Other than that, the Blurracuda was a deffo.....

Okay, I'm leaving too.......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> If only I didn't despise snowflake hands....


See, it's the snowflake hands that make the watch for me. I can't Stand Mercedes hands or Mercedes-y hands...

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I'd prefer Rolls-Royce hands.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> I'd prefer Rolls-Royce hands.


Boring...


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> The Germans seem to be doing better lately, to a degree. Porsche's engines no longer tear themselves apart on a whim. BMW certainly has improved since the N54 days where each morning required a prayer that the high pressure fuel pump would still work, but they still have a lot of dumb engineering issues that should've been fixed long ago. Germany's bright spot, amazingly, is Audi, once the black sheep that now is consistently beating Munich and Stuttgart in quality rankings. For what it's worth, I don't consider diesel-gate to be a "problem" so much as them trying to prop up a fuel that is long past its prime in passenger cars. From what I've been able to gather diesels _all_ do far worse in the real world than the static emissions tests, the VW group was just cheating more than other brands, and they got caught first.


The Germans endorse Hyundai. ;-)


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

nuru said:


> The Germans endorse Hyundai. ;-)


Heh. Until _very_ recently nothing out of Hyundai/Kia impressed me at all. They just lacked even basic competence on things like suspension designs, and long term durability on wear parts was embarrassing. Also, speaking of engines tearing themselves apart, witness the initial year Hyundai 2.0T engines ripping themselves to shreds with metal shavings. Oops. They do seem to have turned a corner though within the last few years. The second gen Genesis (now called the G80 as part of the Genesis brand) was really their first seriously competitive product that didn't need a lower price and a longer warranty to justify its existence. The G70 is definitely not yet a match for the Germans, but it's already better than anything Acura has been able to do in that segment in their over 30 year history. At this point they might as well follow Ford's lead and just quit cars altogether. The RLX is just sad. Stick to making upscale school buses.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Sorpene Bloo, do feeyoomayee too.............









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

That's right; rub it in our faces! ;-)


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

helot said:


> I'm really curious about the above. I've been considering all manner of "field watches" of late from the Aevig Corvid, and MK 11 Hawkinge to variations of the Omega Seamaster/Railmaster and the Tudor North Flag. I'm really curious to see what docvail conjures up. Patiently waiting for the big reveal. Oh, and I should be picking up my Tiburon on Saturday morning from the local FedEx.


I've been drooling over the Aevig Corvid (the lumed dial one) for months... finally grabbed one on Ebay for a steal. I'm a dive watch guy through and through - pretty much my entire collection. But been itching for a field watch lately. Can't wait until the Corvid is delivered!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> See, it's the snowflake hands that make the watch for me. I can't Stand Mercedes hands or Mercedes-y hands...
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.
> 
> Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


Well, I might as well have everybody mad at me. I don't much like the Mercedes hands either. The two Subs I have had have are a Scorpene and now this Amphion Dark Gilt. I'm leaving now.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

MikeyT said:


> Well, I might as well have everybody mad at me. I don't much like the Mercedes hands either. The two Subs I have had have are a Scorpene and now this Amphion Dark Gilt. I'm leaving now.


Whilst we are having this chat on the bus heading out of town, really don't like those cathedral hands either.......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> Well, I might as well have everybody mad at me. I don't much like the Mercedes hands either. The two Subs I have had have are a Scorpene and now this Amphion Dark Gilt. I'm leaving now.


That gave me a good chuckle. Thx. Don't forget your hat on the way out .

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> That gave me a good chuckle. Thx. Don't forget your hat on the way out .
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.
> 
> Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


OK.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

#snowflakesrock


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I think I have a "problem"!!! I already have all these and I am still contemplating adding more!!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> I think I have a "problem"!!! I already have all these and I am still contemplating adding more!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A problem shared........ Surely there must be some treatment available for this. I have managed to pass on one recently and a couple of others are heading for the block - maybe, poss........... uummm, we'll see anyway. I'm now hoping that Yankee E will make me feel a whole lot better about my "problem" ....... pictures please Mr Y...









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> Sorpene Bloo, do feeyoomayee too.............
> 
> View attachment 13336761
> 
> ...


Please. For the health of my wallet, stop.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> A problem shared........ Surely there must be some treatment available for this. I have managed to pass on one recently and a couple of others are heading for the block - maybe, poss........... uummm, we'll see anyway. I'm now hoping that Yankee E will make me feel a whole lot better about my "problem" ....... pictures please Mr Y...
> 
> View attachment 13337741
> 
> ...


That's just the "starter kit".

There are guys here who've bought more than 10 from me.

Cowboys Superfan Bill apparently thinks at 20 he gets to date my sister!


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

About 24 hours in... The nacken has lost all of one second. This is typical in my experience, regarding the accuracy of the miyota movements that nth uses. My other two nackens are both also extremely accurate. 

Once again, very pleased with this. One gets chronometer grade time keeping from a 600~ dollar watch. Not to mention the outstanding level of fit, finish etc.

I switched the renegade over to a Barton elite silicon strap in a color scheme that I think goes well. I live in Austin, tx, and the extreme heat makes wearing a bracelet or something that can't be adjusted on the fly inconvenient.

The lume is, as you can see, excellent.

In all, if you can still even find one of these, if anyone is on the fence, consider it highly recommended..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Saw some of those Barton straps at our regional GTG a couple months back. They're pretty awesome, especially for silicone.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Saw some of those Barton straps at our regional GTG a couple months back. They're pretty awesome, especially for silicone.


Agreed. They also come with two different length non-buckle halves- a normal length and a short size. . So, for someone like me with smaller wrists, they're perfect. The keeper also has a notch or tab that locks into the end of the strap, and stops it from wandering around, which is a feature that I love They're definitely my new favorite rubber strap, especially for the price.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> I think I have a "problem"!!! I already have all these and I am still contemplating adding more!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, Omegafanboy, this make me wonder how many Omegas you have. Cause NTH is obviously not your main jam 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

That Renegade looks great and really is a chameleon. :-! If one of those should accidentally end up in my mailbox I think it would be very hard to not wear it a few days (weeks, months?) before rectifying the situation. :think:

;-)

Fortunately I have an awesome Scorpeeeeen expected for delivery tomorrow to keep me satisfied for a while


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> That Renegade looks great and really is a chameleon. :-! If one of those should accidentally end up in my mailbox I think it would be very hard to not wear it a few days (weeks, months?) before rectifying the situation. :think:
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Fortunately I have an awesome Scorpeeeeen expected for delivery tomorrow to keep me satisfied for a while


I feel like I don't even know what color the dial is, lol. depending on the light it's either neon blue, navy blue, silver, grey, black, white, even olive green sometimes. It really is something.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

mattm0691 said:


> I feel like I don't even know what color the dial is, lol. depending on the light it's either neon blue, navy blue, silver, grey, black, white, even olive green sometimes. It really is something.


Thats pretty cool. Now please stop making feel worse then I already do about not owning that watch. :-|

On a serious note Doc really is making it tough for me. These NTH subs fit me just right and they all look great.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

mattm0691 said:


> I feel like I don't even know what color the dial is, lol. depending on the light it's either neon blue, navy blue, silver, grey, black, white, even olive green sometimes. It really is something.


it most certainly is.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

The Watcher said:


> it most certainly is.
> 
> View attachment 13337929


wow, very nice shot showing how the color can change, given any slight difference in lighting!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Watcher said:


> it most certainly is.
> 
> View attachment 13337929


Is that a phoeymayeh strap?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> That's just the "starter kit".
> 
> There are guys here who've bought more than 10 from me.
> 
> Cowboys Superfan Bill apparently thinks at 20 *he gets to date my sister*!


Tish & Pish!! I thought that the qualy was 8.......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Saw some of those Barton straps at our regional GTG a couple months back. They're pretty awesome, especially for silicone.


No kidding. I just tossed all of my silicone straps for some of the new Bartons. They're fantastic, and the short length option is brilliant for those of us cursed with tiny wrists. They're now my go to along with Chris Ward for leather.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Tish & Pish!! I thought that the qualy was 8.......
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


Pfffft!

She doesn't get off the couch and meet you at the door for less than a baker's dozen.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Well, looks like I'm going to get some Barton straps to greet my Renegade.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Erikas strap is the way to go for the subs. I like my watches super tight but still comfortable, this is it


----------



## helot (Jun 27, 2018)

Arrived a day earlier than scheduled. I’m digging the multiple personality disorder evidenced by this watch: hot and cold. Reminds me of a certain ex ....


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I also find that NTH tropic straps work best with Doc's creations. For summertime, I like Erika's and tropic straps.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

helot said:


> Arrived a day earlier than scheduled. I'm digging the multiple personality disorder evidenced by this watch: hot and cold. Reminds me of a certain ex ....


Very nice. Glad to see that the Tiburön also has the same high quality dial as the santa fe.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The Watcher said:


> it most certainly is.
> 
> View attachment 13337929


What strap is that? (aka where could one get that strap?)


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> What strap is that? (aka where could one get that strap?)


It looks like a Berluti Scripto


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Btw, the SeriousWatches (nth's EU retailer) has put up videos of nearly all the new sub variants on their youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/user/SeriousWatches/videos





















Weirdly, the Tiburön looks way nicer than expected, super-legible.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

aicolainen said:


> So, Omegafanboy, this make me wonder how many Omegas you have. Cause NTH is obviously not your main jam
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


When I first joined WUS I was all about Omega. My favourite watch was the Aquaterra followed by the first gen Planet Ocean. At that point I had only a limited knowledge of the variety of watches out there beyond the basic UK high street options. Watchuseek opened my eyes and F71 became my home.

That being said I do still have 5 Omegas in my collection!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> When I first joined WUS I was all about Omega. My favourite watch was the Aquaterra followed by the first gen Planet Ocean. At that point I had only a limited knowledge of the variety of watches out there beyond the basic UK high street options. Watchuseek opened my eyes and F71 became my home.
> 
> That being said I do still have 5 Omegas in my collection!
> 
> ...


The ovoid Deville is killer.........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I am frequently checking this thread to find more pictures of the Nacken Renegade. And the Blueracuda, and the blue Scorpene. And any others.....

I suppose that's when I say, Damn you, Doc, for making such enticing watches!


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Now that the August preorder run has already been shipped in July, I'm crossing my fingers for my October preorder of the Näcken Modern Blue through watchgauge.com to be shipped slightly earlier as well 

Ordered that one in June - waiting 4 months for a watch after is quite a difficult task I tell ya...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Btw, the SeriousWatches (nth's EU retailer) has put up videos of nearly all the new sub variants on their youtube channel:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/SeriousWatches/videos
> 
> ...


Serious is the last place with stock on a few of those, like the Nacken Modern Black and Nacken Renegade.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Tanjecterly said:


> I am frequently checking this thread to find more pictures of the Nacken Renegade. And the Blueracuda, and the blue Scorpene. And any others.....
> 
> I suppose that's when I say, Damn you, Doc, for making such enticing watches!


Can't see you suffering T, so some pics to help with alleviating the symptoms........

























Cheers,

Alan


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

Ragl said:


> Can't see you suffering T, so some pics to help with alleviating the symptoms........
> 
> View attachment 13339783
> 
> ...


Aw wow.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm. Hey doc, in the WG video interview you said that the renegade dial was inspired by one specific photo/watch. Can you share the photo that inspired this brushed/fumed/blue/silver thing?


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

Bradjhomes said:


> It looks like a Berluti Scripto


thanks brad! (or no thanks...i googled this and now i see yet another potential $trap idea to try)

X2, this is actually from combat straps - montreal, canada
see https://www.combat-straps.com/default.html


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm. Hey doc, in the WG video interview you said that the renegade dial was inspired by one specific photo/watch. Can you share the photo that inspired this brushed/fumed/blue/silver thing?


This.









Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



The Watcher said:


> thanks brad! (or no thanks...i googled this and now i see yet another potential $trap idea to try)
> 
> X2, this is actually from combat straps - montreal, canada
> see https://www.combat-straps.com/default.html
> ...


Pics of steel watches
set on stony walls always
shrivel up m'balls.

That's some high quality haiku right there, b1tches.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Ragl said:


> Can't see you suffering T, so some pics to help with alleviating the symptoms........
> 
> View attachment 13339773
> 
> ...


Mine just got delivered!!!

At home. And I'm stuck at work.










































Just a few more hours then yabadabadoo!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

What he said ^ o|


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> This.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Niiiice. Closer than I had expected... this makes the renegade's dial mix of _fume_ and steelbrush make a wee bit more sense now, too.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

JakeJD said:


> Mine just got delivered!!!
> 
> At home. And I'm stuck at work.


Heh. Not so bad, though. I won't get to pick up mine until next friday (back from vacation then).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just a mini-rant I gotta get off my chest...

Anyone here who's connected to me on Facebook may have seen the Facebook "Live" videos I posted during my trip to China a couple months back. The deal with those videos is that, when you post them as "Live" videos, they're not saved on your phone, they only exist on Facebook, and they don't make it easy to download them. You need a special app to pull them from FB and get them as files you can upload to YouTube.

Anyway, my marketing guy found a good app to do that, and I asked him to go back, grab those live videos, and compile them into a single video for YouTube.

He calls me and says he can't find them. They're gone. Poof!

Now, I don't know if any of you have ever tried to get support from Facebook, for anything, but it's literally a black hole of pointlessness. They are the antithesis of helpful, so I haven't bothered to ask what happened to my videos. I assume they're gone for good.

Why would this happen?

A bit of Googling on the topic comes up with a lot of publicly-viewable FB support threads about "community standards", which sounds like the usual mumbo-jumbo to actually mean "we remove anything we don't like", or maybe "anything anyone complains about".

Those videos included:

+ Several videos shot inside factories, showing the process of making certain parts,
+ a video I shot in a shabu-shabu restaurant in Shenzhen, where we boiled cow, 
+ a video I shot of some Chinese ladies line-dancing in a shopping center plaza, 
+ a video of me out drinking in Hong Kong with Sujain, who happened to be there the same week, 
+ and a video of me, in bed (covers pulled up), waxing philosophic about the challenges which stem from consumers' insatiable hunger for cheap-product, juxtaposed with our simultaneous desire to see our own standard of living increased and wages within our own countries sustained, if not improved.

What, on Earth, would anyone find objectionable in any of that? There was no violence, no nudity, very little profanity (I said "f**k you to Suj, and called him a d1ck, when he accused me of being a lightweight when it comes to drinking, but other than that, nada).

So, I have no idea what the explanation is, but I'll say this...

If they pulled those videos because someone complained about them, whoever complained is a d1ck, because there was actually useful, valuable insights to be gained from some of them.

If FB pulled them, I'd love to know why, and if it has anything to do with pressure from the Chinese government, both FB and the PRC can eat a huge buffet of d1cks.

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm wondering if it isn't something to do with the PRC, which effectively locks the internet up within mainland China. I had to get an international calling/data plan for that month just to be sure I could use my phone there.

I have no idea what the mechanism involved would be, how or why someone from Facebook would go out of their way to pull videos I happened to shoot from inside China, just because the PRC keeps a tight lid on social media over there (apparently), but I can't help but think that FB is censoring free speech in an effort to appease the PRC, in the hopes that the PRC will eventually approve FB for use there.

And if that's the case, my most sincere hope is that someone in the PRC pulls a "Jian Yang" like the kid from "Silicon Valley" and makes a "New Facebook".


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm. I thought nobody in china actually used facebook much, since they have their own social network / chat app / payment portal / gov't surveillance tool / money transfer tool all rolled into one mobile app ecosystem (WeChat). Is facebook even legally accesible from prc? I thought not.

.. On a gut-level guess, far more likely that either some troll complained, or some micro or big brand guy didn't like something you showed there.

Or even more likely - might have just been an automatic removal triggered by whatever odd confluence of features triggered their watchdog "AI" system. Given the number of facebook users (excess of 2.2 billion with a B! ), there's no way whatsoever that these sorts of takedowns are human-operated within Facebook itself. It's algorithms and "AI" pattern-matchers all the way down.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> When I first joined WUS I was all about Omega. My favourite watch was the Aquaterra followed by the first gen Planet Ocean. At that point I had only a limited knowledge of the variety of watches out there beyond the basic UK high street options. Watchuseek opened my eyes and F71 became my home.
> 
> That being said I do still have 5 Omegas in my collection!
> 
> ...


Why does it have to be one way or an other I have c300 a DevilRay and an Azores as well as a ghostrider I flipped an oberon and then there Are these


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm. I thought nobody in china actually used facebook much, since they have their own social network / chat app / payment portal / gov't surveillance tool / money transfer tool all rolled into one mobile app ecosystem (WeChat). Is facebook even legally accesible from prc? I thought not.
> 
> .. On a gut-level guess, far more likely that either some troll complained, or some micro or big brand guy didn't like something you showed there.
> 
> Or even more likely - might have just been an automatic removal triggered by whatever odd confluence of features triggered their watchdog "AI" system. Given the number of facebook users (excess of 2.2 billion with a B! ), there's no way whatsoever that these sorts of takedowns are human-operated within Facebook itself. It's algorithms and "AI" pattern-matchers all the way down.


There wasn't anything on the videos any micro or big brand should object to, since none of them showed any other brands' marks, and I didn't mention any of them in the videos, only pics, and only once.

Why some troll would complain is perplexing. I mean - why those videos, but nothing else on my page? What is it about those videos, specifically, that led to someone targeting them, but not the pics I also posted that week, one of which actually showed an Omega caseback being produced in a Chinese factory?

I think more likely it's that the FB mobile app has an embedded geo-location feature which can't be turned off, so they could tell the videos were shot inside the PRC, but...there was one video they never removed. I just deleted it myself a few minutes ago, because it was pointless to have it, as it was just me, talking in the car between factory visits, and what I was saying got cut off when we went through a tunnel.

If they can tell the videos were shot inside China, then I suspect they have some sort of automatic screen for removing them, which can most likely be explained by thinking FB has some reason for kowtowing to the PRC.

At best, it's profit-motivated. At worst, it's an indication that they agree with the PRC's censorship of the internet, which isn't too far-fetched, given FB's own measures at censoring stuff NOT posted from within the PRC.

Either way, it's a nasty business, and I'll be sure to grab the videos the next time I do anything "live" on FB. I'm sure I agreed to such nonsense by accepting their site's user terms, but morally/ethically, that content was mine, not theirs, and it isn't right that it should simply be destroyed. At the very least, they could have removed the ability for others to view it, but left it viewable for me, which would allow me to save a backup of those files.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So I take it that the recent plunge in stock value of FB is totally a coincidence and you had nothing to do with it personally?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> So I take it that the recent plunge in stock value of FB is totally a coincidence and you had nothing to do with it personally?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


No, but I was happy to see Zuckerberg's personal net worth took a $15 billion hit.

I don't remember what it was, but maybe 10 years ago, I was up on my soapbox shouting about the inherent evil of those who build networks thinking they can control the flow of information within them. My rallying cry at the time was, "power to the networkers, not the network!"

My feeling is that social media sites should be relatively, if not entirely idea-agnostic. YouTube, Facebook and Twitter all have enough traffic to generate revenue from ads, there's no reason why they should take an active role in filtering content from anyone, with very few exceptions.

What really makes me nuts is that they apparently don't realize how counter-productive it is. By applying any sort of active censorship, they actually devalue the very networks they created, and cause people to look for alternatives, or question the validity of the information transferred on those networks. They devalue the ads they're trying to sell.

If an idea is bad, the way to show that is to expose it to sunlight, not to drive it into the dark. That just makes it seem more worthy of believing, to some, and the people behind the idea look like internet martyrs. It feeds right into people's natural suspicions and conspiracy theories.

It's the same beef I have with some blogs. By trying to shape public opinion, they end up turning public opinion against themselves.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Despise fb

20% loss couldn't happen to a "nicer" pack of leaches.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f73/facebook-3727146.html


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

If one must store online, in the cloud, use Dropbox


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> If FB pulled them, I'd love to know why, and if it has anything to do with pressure from the Chinese government, both FB and the PRC can eat a huge buffet of d1cks.
> [/ATTACH]


Sadly the huge buffets of d1cks are subject to the new round of tariffs so it's probably going to more cost effective to source a huge buffet of @-holes instead. You can locally source those in the US.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Yup "geo-location" inside PRC = auto scrub algorithm. 
The car trip video might have worked as the car / movement / tunnel blocked the signal or could not get a good geo-loc to tag the video.
I have seen this same thing from other software vendors that have geo fences around PRC.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> Yup "geo-location" inside PRC = auto scrub algorithm.
> The car trip video might have worked as the car / movement / tunnel blocked the signal or could not get a good geo-loc to tag the video.
> I have seen this same thing from other software vendors that have geo fences around PRC.


That makes sense.

So, who's driving that, FB, the PRC, or both? And what's the likely reason why FB would do it?

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

Ragl's incessant badgering has convinced me to move my Estoril down the line and use the proceeds towards a Blorpene.



Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

pb9610 said:


> Ragl's incessant badgering has convinced me to move my Estoril down the line and use the proceeds towards a Blorpene.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Delighted to be of service; relieved to know that my enabling talent is of some consequence. As for the Blorpene, I can assure that you will not in any way be disappointed, it's a killer....

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> That makes sense.
> 
> So, who's driving that, FB, the PRC, or both? And what's the likely reason why FB would do it?
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


My intel points to both being the cause. FB is mad that PRC does PRC stuff and so FB geo-fences PRC as payback.

Look at it like this. Those videos could be considered advertising for vendors in PRC and FB can't have that since FB is not allowed in PRC.

There may be a few other factors at play as well.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> My intel points to both being the cause. FB is mad that PRC does PRC stuff and so FB geo-fences PRC as payback.
> 
> Look at it like this. Those videos could be considered advertising for vendors in PRC and FB can't have that since FB is not allowed in PRC.
> 
> There may be a few other factors at play as well.


So....eff FB.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

On a more joyful note:


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Very happy camper here :-!








Sold my SBDC053 and bought this to be my "blue" watch. VERY happy with the decision.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

MikeyT said:


> If only I didn't despise snowflake hands....


Give it time.

I used to feel the same way about snowflake hands. Then, a couple of years ago, a friend got a Tudor with those "devil hands". I started to slowly look at the watch differently, and now I dig the quirkiness and different style that they are.

Nacken Modern Black incoming!

Doc Savage


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> Very happy camper here :-!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a result....

you're gonna love it.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

I'm wondering if you can recover the videos by downloading all your data from FB? I ksnow there's an option to download your whole history.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Does anyone know if Serious Watches removes VAT for US customers? Just asking for a friend, obviously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> Does anyone know if Serious Watches removes VAT for US customers? Just asking for a friend, obviously.


They do. The site has a vat price and a no-vat price. If they don't remove it at checkout, don't complete the transaction, shoot them an email and ask what to do.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Pics of steel watches
> set on stony walls always
> shrivel up m'balls.
> 
> ...


i hear you...but you're talking to a brother about rhyming? c'mon man. b-) i can also spit off the top of the dome...

pics of steel watches
that are set on stone
must have tape layers underneath 
so the finish is left alone!

how's that for haiku - pow
(note the original photo, you can see a layer of tape actually exposed)

happy friday doc! congrats on the release...take that victory lap!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Sold my SBDC053 and bought this to be my "blue" watch. VERY happy with the decision.


Say that outside this thread.

Heads explode in 3...2...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Say that outside this thread.
> 
> Heads explode in 3...2...


.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



The Watcher said:


> i hear you...but you're talking to a brother about rhyming? c'mon man. b-) i can also spit off the top of the dome...
> 
> pics of steel watches
> that are set on stone
> ...


Well played.

That's a weird word, "played".

If the past-tense of "say" is "said", and "pay" is "paid", then I submit the past-tense of "play" should be "plaid".

Thus, we do not hate the player, we hate the plaid!









Well, perhaps we don't ALWAYS hate the plaid...


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Well played.
> 
> That's a weird word, "played".
> 
> ...


...nope, we don't hate the plaid at all, in this case.

i am a little hurt that you thought i'd ever be capable of abusing such a beautiful watch creation, though. (sniffing) 
sacrilege!

ok, i've reached my talking quota for the month. back to photos









(on carpet!)


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Say that outside this thread.
> 
> Heads explode in 3...2...


Sort of did earlier in here
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4755409&share_fid=13788&share_type=t


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, _hypothetically_, if you get a watch, look it over, find stuff you don't like about it, even things you think are "defects"...if the seller says "return it for a refund", just pack it up and return it for a refund.

If you put any watch under high enough magnification and stare at it long enough, you'll find something "wrong" with it. My advice - don't put watches under a microscope looking for things which might not be 100% "perfect", especially not affordable watches.

Don't get wrapped around the axle dickering about the shipping cost. You bought a watch online, you got it, you decided it's not for you, the reasons don't matter, just send it back.

If you go to the store to return something, the store doesn't pay for your gas and parking, even if that thing was mis-labeled, even if it was truly defective. Don't think that because you found something "wrong" that the shipping should be on the seller.

You ordered something online. Possibly finding a reason to return it is part of the deal. If you don't like it, get up off the couch, drive to the store, and buy something there, so you can see it before you buy it. Those are your choices - drive to the store, or take the chance you'll be returning something you ordered online.

Spending hours looking for reasons to dicker about the shipping cost is just hours you'll never get back. Making passive-aggressive remarks about the quality of the seller's products is not going to endear you to the seller, or make the seller more likely to see things your way.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

docvail said:


> They do. The site has a vat price and a no-vat price. If they don't remove it at checkout, don't complete the transaction, shoot them an email and ask what to do.


TYVM for enabling!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Well played.
> 
> That's a weird word, "played".
> 
> ...


Oh my.....


----------



## rollodes (Feb 19, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You know you're building out shipping zones for a new website when you realize Suriname is in South America, not Asia, Svalbard and Jan Mayen are autonomous regions of Norway, and Bouvet Island is an uninhabited dependency of Norway.
> 
> Also, what's up with Norway having uninhabited dependents? If the island is uninhabited, why is it dependent on anybody? That makes no sense. Is Norway the European version of the guy who pays child support for the kid who isn't even his?
> 
> ...


Actually, most international shippers deliver to Guernsey... DHL, USPS, etc... It is just handled at this end by other people.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Well played.
> 
> That's a weird word, "played".
> 
> ...


Well I find this plaid objectionable and I ask it to be removed. Slowly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



rollodes said:


> Actually, most international shippers deliver to Guernsey... DHL, USPS, etc... It is just handled at this end by other people.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk


I'm sure they do. The issue I have is that I can't find the country in the list of countries in the shipping system my warehouse uses.

Not everything I post should be taken literally.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> Well I find this plaid objectionable and I ask it to be removed. Slowly.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Well plaid.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I think the plan is to start teasing out some of the new NTH Subs designs starting next week, but, eff it, I'm tired of sitting on all of them, so here's a little taste, a bit of Rusty's renders...









See??? I *TOLD* you guys he was killing it lately, didn't I?

Look at that clasp! LOOK AT IT!!!!

"Doc, you're such an a-hole!"

Yes. Yes I am.

Ohhh...fine. Here's a little more...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Your a bad man


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> My feeling is that social media sites should be relatively, if not entirely idea-agnostic. YouTube, Facebook and Twitter all have enough traffic to generate revenue from ads, there's no reason why they should take an active role in filtering content from anyone, with very few exceptions.












That's adorable. Are you a Conservative doc?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

docvail said:


> I think the plan is to start teasing out some of the new NTH Subs designs starting next week, but, eff it, I'm tired of sitting on all of them, so here's a little taste, a bit of Rusty's renders...


Those renders just melted my eyeballs


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Your a bad man


Bad times don't last, but bad men do.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jtragic said:


> That's adorable. Are you a Conservative doc?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm logical.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Ragl said:


> The ovoid Deville is killer.........
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


It is the most comfortable watch I have ever worn. It just sits so well on my wrist. My wife liked it so much we got her two of the ladies version as well.

If I can find a blue with gold ring date only version I may have to buy it as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> I think the plan is to start teasing out some of the new NTH Subs designs starting next week, but, eff it, I'm tired of sitting on all of them, so here's a little taste, a bit of Rusty's renders...
> 
> View attachment 13341527
> 
> ...


Serious let the cat out of the bag on the baby blue one... they're calling it the 'Holland'.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Serious let the cat out of the bag on the baby blue one... they're calling it the 'Holland'.


When did they do that?

Jümping the gün over in the Netherlands?

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Their Facebook feed... dated 7/20... which proves Facebook is nefarious...


----------



## TypeSly (Jan 9, 2018)

Hey Doc,

"Have I told you lately?... That I love yooouuu" :-d


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Their Facebook feed... dated 7/20... which proves Facebook is nefarious...


Dem sumbitches!

I guess that particular cat's worked itself part-way out of the bag, might as well grab him by the scruff and yank him the rest of the way out.

It is called the Holland, and it will be a Serious Watches exclusive, just 50 pieces being made in this production, all no-date, only available through their store, shipping sometime around mid- to late October.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TypeSly said:


> Hey Doc,
> 
> "Have I told you lately?... That I love yooouuu" :-d
> 
> View attachment 13341845


No, but it doesn't get any less creepy each successive iteration.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Brown bezel? That's killer...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Brown bezel? That's killer...


Let's hope so. We went for something darker than the shade we used on the original Barracuda.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If you'd said, "Doc, you should make a watch with a light blue sunburst dial and a brown bezel", I'd have thought you were crazy. That doesn't sound right.

But, then Kaj from Serious watches hits me with, "Chris, can we make something with the color scheme from this Daytona?"















I didn't think it would work, but apparently/obviously, it does.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Very curious to see (eventually) how the Holland will look like once made. This might be a case (as with the renengade) where the renders are more "instructive guidelines" and less "this is how it'll really look". That pastel blue (sunburst?) dial could look all kinds of mad IRL.

I'm pretty happy to see something that looks like a lume-dialled Nazario. ... AND something with cathedral hands and a normal (non-cali) sub dial? Good stuff incoming, for sure.


I take it the new bracelets will be made only in enough numbers to fit the new subs' production? Or will there be a few hundred extras that we could buy for our existing subs?

Either way, a good upgrade. From the render at least it looks like the new claps are not overly thick.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Very curious to see (eventually) how the Holland will look like once made. This might be a case (as with the renengade) where the renders are more "instructive guidelines" and less "this is how it'll really look". That pastel blue (sunburst?) dial could look all kinds of mad IRL.


I mean...when's the last time you've seen someone say they were disappointed in the watch they got from us because the renders looked better than the watch does in real life?

There's only so much we can do with 3D illustrations and studio photography. The real thing is invariably better.

People who pre-order tend to be pretty happy with the watches they get. People who wait to see real-world pics often regret not pre-ordering when we're sold out.

But, good news. We're making 50 of them, and if they sell quickly, and if there seems to be enough demand, Kaj and I are already talking about making more and/or making a date-window version, so if someone wants to take their chances and hold off on pre-ordering one when they become available, there is a chance they'll still be able to order one of the original 50, or that there will be another 50 or more down the road sometime.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Oh yeah, it's almost always better. Just, might also be slightly *different* too, you never know  (like the silver tones on the renegade - that was quite a (pleasant) surprise to see compared to the bright blue renders).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Oh yeah, it's almost always better. Just, might also be slightly *different* too, you never know  (like the silver tones on the renegade - that was quite a (pleasant) surprise to see compared to the bright blue renders).


Yeah, there's occasionally some pleasant surprise.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out how much closer we can get before people realize we're getting close enough, and the rest is just gravy.

It feels like between Aaron's 2D's and Rusty's 3D's, we're getting pretty close, and probably close enough.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

So, let's see...



docvail said:


> ..
> 
> View attachment 13341541
> 
> ...


Looks to be the same watch.. A lume-dial Nazario with white/red/black (carribean? pirate?) colorway and black bezel insert. *The Nazario Buccaneer?* Nice mix of C3 on the dial (same as santa fe, which would be really good) and bgw9 on bezel. Nazario iirc also had two-tone lume.



> View attachment 13341543


Cathedral hands! C3 lume mixed with bgw9 again. black dial/bezel? Note the faint "22, 23" markings on the circles! So the triangle is the "9 o clock" index. SO, a different version of the Zvaardviis dial layout, with a military watch aesthetic. The NTH Combat Sub? *The Battle-Fish?*



> View attachment 13341545


The Hölland. Might be a sleeper hit... Pastel tones are in, after all.

Annywho. Very happy to see that the subs are now becoming a bread-and-butter NTH base with so many variations. It's a very deserving platform to use as a foundation.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> If you'd said, "Doc, you should make a watch with a light blue sunburst dial and a brown bezel", I'd have thought you were crazy. That doesn't sound right.
> 
> But, then Kaj from Serious watches hits me with, "Chris, can we make something with the color scheme from this Daytona?"
> 
> I didn't think it would work, but apparently/obviously, it does.


Interesting! You don't see a lot of sunburst with that kind of color. I dig it, except.... whatever the opposite of a strap monster is, that is that watch. Black no, camel no, blue no, brown obviously would work, but you'd have to get the shade right. It would look good on light blue silicone/rubber though.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Interesting! You don't see a lot of sunburst with that kind of color. I dig it, except.... whatever the opposite of a strap monster is, that is that watch. Black no, camel no, blue no, brown obviously would work, but you'd have to get the shade right. It would look good on light blue silicone/rubber though.


I'm thinking any dark brown strap will work well, as will a turquoise strap, maybe.

There's always NATOs.

https://www.cincystrapco.com/collec...ducts/20mm-premium-carolina-nylon-watch-strap


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



The Watcher said:


> ...nope, we don't hate the plaid at all, in this case.
> 
> i am a little hurt that you thought i'd ever be capable of abusing such a beautiful watch creation, though. (sniffing)
> sacrilege!
> ...


A bachelor pad.
Wall to wall carpet, not shag?
Your stock is crashing.

BBBBOOOOMMMM!!!

HAIKU, B1TCHES!


----------



## TypeSly (Jan 9, 2018)

docvail said:


> No, but it doesn't get any less creepy each successive iteration.


But but... it's a song. :-x

And I still love you! Haha


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Davekaye90 said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting! You don't see a lot of sunburst with that kind of color. I dig it, except.... whatever the opposite of a strap monster is, that is that watch. Black no, camel no, blue no, brown obviously would work, but you'd have to get the shade right. It would look good on light blue silicone/rubber though.
> ...


NATO....NATO? NATO? Ohhhhhhhhhh... you mean milspec!


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

docvail said:


> I think the plan is to start teasing out some of the new NTH Subs designs starting next week, ...
> 
> Ohhh...fine. Here's a little more...
> 
> ...


These two are interesting.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Very curious to see (eventually) how the Holland will look like once made. This might be a case (as with the renengade) where the renders are more "instructive guidelines" and less "this is how it'll really look". That pastel blue (sunburst?) dial could look all kinds of mad IRL.
> 
> I'm pretty happy to see something that looks like a lume-dialled Nazario. ... AND something with cathedral hands and a normal (non-cali) sub dial? Good stuff incoming, for sure.
> 
> ...


The Tiburon renders seemed a little different too. I was expecting a yellow Simpson-esque lume like the renders, but it looks quite white in the reals.

I know, I know, I complained about buying from renders so maybe I'm just looking to justify my complaint. Still a killer watch, no doubt.









Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

^^ Yeah, it's a guessing game.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> A bachelor pad.
> Wall to wall carpet, not shag?
> Your stock is crashing.
> 
> ...


^ for the love of pete, someone stop this guy with the haikus

Yes Doc, a bachelor pad
With hardwood floors
That photo was taken
From the garage, outdoors

That Watcher stock
has never been higher
Lets get back to this latest rollout of great Nth subs
While I keep posting up as a satisfied buyer.









happy saturday, my friend
onward and upward!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

^^ Looks like it take the color from the surrounding area -- in this case the wood. Looks light brown in that light.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



The Watcher said:


> That Watcher stock
> has never been higher


Take a selfie or a pic of your watch next to a globe mini-bar, I'll acquiesce.

Hardwood floors? What else? Potpourri? Yankee candles?

You're a bachelor. Act like it.

Say it with me now - shag carpet. High-end stereo equipment. Globe mini-bar.

That's the holy trinity of men who are single, and looking to mingle.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Too much hilarity enough..........^^^ LMAO


----------



## OhDark30 (Oct 2, 2012)

So I thought
bachelor flat = shag pad

(flooring options unimportant)

Carry on, everyone


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

OhDark30 said:


> So I thought
> bachelor flat = shag pad
> 
> (flooring options unimportant)
> ...


As long as it ain't a flat shag...


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Now I'm officially a member.

Simple, yet classic Modern Black:










Doc Savage


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> When I first joined WUS I was all about Omega. My favourite watch was the Aquaterra followed by the first gen Planet Ocean. At that point I had only a limited knowledge of the variety of watches out there beyond the basic UK high street options. Watchuseek opened my eyes and F71 became my home.


I guess thats how it plays out for all of us. 
I dipped my toe in when I "discovered" the field watch category, I think through some kind of outdoor gear review... 
Anyway, I thougt they looked cool, and had to look into it, and maybe find one for myself.. Thats all it takes to get sucked in I tell ya.


----------



## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

.









Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> Now I'm officially a member.
> 
> Simple, yet classic Modern Black:
> 
> ...


Good choice, the original Nacken! Forget about these homages around here that keep coming out now.










Kidding of course


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)




----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

My Scorpene was on my wrist almost the entire time of my 9 day extended family vacation in Northern Georgia and Southern North Carolina. (a few good stories but my journal would not be nearly as epic as Chris's annual jaunts). Plus I get to arrive home to a new Nth

All in all, not a bad week.










Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Perdendosi said:


> My Scorpene was on my wrist almost the entire time of my 9 day extended family vacation in Northern Georgia and Southern North Carolina. (a few good stories but my journal would not be nearly as epic as Chris's annual jaunts). Plus I get to arrive home to a new Nth
> 
> All in all, not a bad week.
> 
> ...


Another Bill Jones School of Photography grad!

Where "F" doesn't just stand for "Focus", it's also a passing grade!


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> So, let's see...
> 
> Looks to be the same watch.. A lume-dial Nazario with white/red/black (carribean? pirate?) colorway and black bezel insert. *The Nazario Buccaneer?* Nice mix of C3 on the dial (same as santa fe, which would be really good) and bgw9 on bezel. Nazario iirc also had two-tone lume.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking alpinist/field watch for the one with the inner 24hr ring. Make it a fixed bezel and oooooohhh shilz look out!

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

First: it’s great that you develop so many different varieties on that „sub platform“ of yours. I couldn’t come up with so many different styles. Really excited to see, what else is in there. The brown/light blue combination is crazy!

Second: what have you done with the clasp? Is it thinner? Because from that one render it looks like the one I have on my näcken. Maybe my eyes fool me.

And speaking of renders, let me ask one question. It may sound stupid, but it’s honest, so don’t roast me (this goes for anyone who can answer the question):

To me, the renders give a pretty close idea to what the watch will look like (not only nth, but nearly all others that I have purchased based on renders). Only one example of that rule is the zelos dmt, which looked VERY much thinner in the rendering. So. To my question: what makes it so difficult to make a „good“ rendering? I thought, if you’re good with the programs (don’t even know how they’re called. Is it CAD?) - you should come up with a mock-up real fast and then work on it to fine-tune it. Don’t get me wrong, no critiquing here. Just interested in how the work-flow looks like. 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> First: it's great that you develop so many different varieties on that „sub platform" of yours. I couldn't come up with so many different styles. Really excited to see, what else is in there. The brown/light blue combination is crazy!
> 
> Second: what have you done with the clasp? Is it thinner? Because from that one render it looks like the one I have on my näcken. Maybe my eyes fool me.
> 
> ...


The biggest issue with "realistic" renders is to set up two things: Lighting, and Materials. And then there are render engine constraints.

Lighting, means you need to lay out light sources in the 3D scene space - these sources can be point lights, light emitting surfaces, the light can be toned, there can be a limit to how many times it bounces/reflects. There's not that much complexity in this step.

Materials, means that you define how light interacts with a modelled surface. The 3D models themselves are just wireframe style meshes, on which you apply textures (images) and materials (definitions of light interaction). These materials basically tell (via systematic surface scattering models) how each incoming light ray is deflected, refracted, scattered, absorbed, by how much, how the coloring is affected, etc. This is a real hole of complexity, and a huge part of why "realistic" renders succeed or fail.

Then lastly there are render engine restrictions - how many light rays in total the engine can handle, whether the light is projected forwards (from the in-scene light sources) or backwards (traced from in resulting image pixels into the scene space), how many refraction/reflection steps each light ray can take, how many times it can split, etc.. And of course because it still treats light as discrete rays and not as a wave field, there is an ultimate light resolution issue that cannot be truly bypassed, just mitigated by increasing light ray density a lot - but even then the refractive and scattering effects are slightly "hack"-ish and not quite true to the underlying physics of real light.

As for why sometimes renders look thinner than the actual watch.. Three options:
1) The object is angled in such a way as to hide the true thickness
2) The 3D model is wrong and/or misleading
3) The perspective is not modelled correctly and the "distant" convergence point is unrealistically close or far. This is equivalent to messing with a camera's field of view. Sometimes people also do orthographic renders where there is *no* perspective (no convergent lines - parallel in 3D stays parallel in the 2D projection regardless of direction).


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> The biggest issue with "realistic" renders is to set up two things: Lighting, and Materials. And then there are render engine constraints.
> 
> Lighting, means you need to lay out light sources in the 3D scene space - these sources can be point lights, light emitting surfaces, the light can be toned, there can be a limit to how many times it bounces/reflects. There's not that much complexity in this step.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the elaborate and immediate answer.

It sheds a quite informative light on the underlying technique and the problems you have to deal with. I'm totally not familiar with it, as you might guess .

But!: what you described, especially in regards to lighting problems and light absorption and reflection - isn't this a question of the development BEHIND the user interface? I mean, you say you want a stainless steel surface with x length, y height and z width and the light comes from the right above corner from the front - let's say led light with 3700k white - isn't this then the specific program to solve that problem? Which means, the people who write that program on a computing level have to think of the issues you described. Not the designer?

So as a designer you should be thinking about what materials and surface treatment (polished, blasted....) to use - and then in a process of merely trial and error try to find a good solution. Rather than thinking about light absorption coefficients...

I may be completely underestimating the whole process though...

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Not really. In 3D modeling, it's the artist (end-user) who builds up the materials. Standard prebuilt configurations (presets) exist in most tool collections, but there's no way to cover the entire span of real things. E.g. a "stainless steel material" - how shiny is it? is it polished, brushed, blasted, coated, pitted? Is it fresh, weathered, rusty? Is it high nickel steel, 316l steel, 904 steel, other steel, knife steel? All of that will affect how the material should behave, and it's unreasonable to expect the modelling software makers to provide all the infinite variations of all materials. From the program side, the task is to **support** such materials, not provide them off-the-bat. That's what third-party, user-contributed libraries are for (e.g. http://blendermada.com/materials/ and many many more).

If you're interested in an example, this would be a great insight into materials in 3d modelling:

https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/render/cycles/materials/introduction.html
https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/render/cycles/materials/settings.html


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Another Bill Jones School of Photography grad!
> 
> Where "F" doesn't just stand for "Focus", it's also a passing grade!


That camera is clearly not as WIS as it thought the waterfall was more important than the watch.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I definitely was completely underestimating the whole process.
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.
> 
> Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


Fixed.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Ordering Starbucks with the Nacken yesterday and getting a bit of sun on the dial.









Doc Savage


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Scorpene Sunday:









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> First: it's great that you develop so many different varieties on that „sub platform" of yours. I couldn't come up with so many different styles. Really excited to see, what else is in there. The brown/light blue combination is crazy!
> 
> Second: what have you done with the clasp? Is it thinner? Because from that one render it looks like the one I have on my näcken. Maybe my eyes fool me.
> 
> ...


Side by side comparisons of the old and new clasp, and description of improvements to the bracelet here - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/brot...t-27-a-4733169-post46604731.html#post46604731

...

The rendering programs are not that easy to figure out. What makes things harder is that we're often trying to replicate what colors will look like in real life before we've seen them in real-life, or trying to figure out what color best matches something in real life, but without knowing what color to tell the program that is.

For example, if I tell my factory to make the dial color Pantone ______, the 3D rendering package Rusty uses doesn't work with Pantones as inputs, so we have to try to convert that into an RGB (Red, Green, Blue) color, and it's not always exact.

The colors can come out looking slightly different in 3D than they look in 2D, or in color swatches, especially when you add dial finishes and textures, light from multiple sources, reflections, and shadow, which are all assumed within the 3D illustration package.

The bezel insert colors we use aren't Pantones or RGB's. They're literally colors that the plating factory came up with, and assign their own numbers to, like HK01, HK04, etc. I have a book of samples, but that doesn't tell me what to tell Rusty to tell the program if I pick HK01. I have to hold the samples up to my computer screen, and try to find a Pantone or RGB color that's close.

Likewise, the lume colors aren't RGB's or Pantones. Same thing here, except here, I don't even have a book of physical samples to go by. Aaron may illustrate something in 2D based on Tritec's chart of Superluminova colors. That chart is *WAY* off. Take a look at the pics in that same post at the link above. One is a pic of physical samples of the lume colors, printed on a white paper card. The other is Tritec's chart. Notice the colors look different between the two.

Instead, I have to take one of the actual watches I have which have used that color of lume, hold it up to the screen, and try to match the RGB or Pantone colors, and they may be affected by the color of the material underneath, whether or not my eyes are detecting just the color of the lume itself, without glowing at all, or if there may be some glow I'm detecting, without realizing it, making the colors more tinted. Those lume colors are going to look different on a black dial or blue bezel than they look printed on a white card.

Illustrating basic colors like black and white are easy. Black is black. White is white. Getting something like a metallic blue, brown or gray bezel, which changes colors quickly based on the light and angle, to look right, is very difficult. Getting lume colors right is difficult.

The appearance of depth is altered by a crystal's lens-effect. Getting that right is difficult. We have to do trial-and-error on the refraction settings to get them right.

Getting dial finishes and textures right is difficult. The 3D rendering software doesn't come with existing settings for things like sunray finishes and sandpaper texture. We have to "teach" it what those look like and how to render them. We have to dial up or dial down reflections. Even if you can effectively teach it to show a texture, like the sandpaper, that can still be "matte" or "glossy", so it looks dry or wet.

Even getting case finishes and colors right is difficult. Rusty can dial up or dial down the reflections, light, and density of the brushing. If a surface is reflective, it reflects *something*. What is it reflecting? Something white? Something black? A light source? Something in shadow?

When we illustrate it, where are the hypothetical light sources in the illustration environment? Is the watch facing them directly, obliquely? Is it bathed in light, partially lit, all in shadow? Is there more than one light source? How many, and where are they relative to the object being illustrated?

Some of this is about how the person looking at an image interprets it. If we illustrate a lume shot, everything except the lume looks darker. People sometimes think we're showing a DLC-coated version, when it's just the stainless steel shrouded in darkness.

It all sounds easy until you're the one who has to figure all this stuff out. It's not uncommon for me and Rusty to go back and forth tweaking one little thing, like the reflection of a dial, and every little change will affect something else. We have to get every detail as close as we can get it, and it ain't easy.


----------



## helot (Jun 27, 2018)

NTH Tiburon: +4 seconds over the last 24 hours while worn continuously (yes, for the most part, I sleep while wearing my watch).


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> Side by side comparisons of the old and new clasp, and description of improvements to the bracelet here - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/brot...t-27-a-4733169-post46604731.html#post46604731


Thanks for both! The further in-depth explanation of the rendering process ( as I said, I underestimated the work that is put into it, really. I apologize!) and the link to the bracelet/clasp explanation.

MAYBE  you should post such an elemental piece of information in this thread as well .

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

So kewl man


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Thanks for both! The further in-depth explanation of the rendering process ( as I said, I underestimated the work that is put into it, really. I apologize!) and the link to the bracelet/clasp explanation.
> 
> MAYBE  you should post such an elemental piece of information in this thread as well .


We have a plan. All in good time.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Commander tonight








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

docvail said:


> The rendering programs are not that easy to figure out. What makes things harder is that we're often trying to replicate what colors will look like in real life before we've seen them in real-life....
> 
> <snip big rendering rant>
> 
> We have to get every detail as close as we can get it, and it ain't easy.


Plus, the color that Doc sees on his screen is different than the color Rusty sees on his, and from the colors we see on our screens, because every monitor is different. Even if he and Rusty do everything perfectly, they can't account for Dell oversaturating the red when they calibrate their monitors (for example).


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

kak1154 said:


> Plus, the color that Doc sees on his screen is different than the color Rusty sees on his, and from the colors we see on our screens, because every monitor is different.


For work like this, I would assume color calibrated monitors.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Proper monitors that *can* display an accurate and wide gamut are pretty expensive. (And color calibration tools ain't cheap either)


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

nuru said:


> For work like this, I would assume color calibrated monitors.


I would assume Rusty has one (and maybe Doc), but I wouldn't assume every potential customer has one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Annndddd...not every program renders colors the same way. Aaron's 2D program tends to show colors more saturated than they are, as an example. 

We're always working to improve the process and create illustratuons which are as realistic as possible. 

Perhaps it helps if I point out that the goals here inclide people not being disappointed by the watch they receive after seeing the renders, and not short-selling the product with illustrations that don't highlight the positives, but in that order of priority.

If I had to choose, I'd rather undersell the product so that people aren't disappointed, than over-sell it with images that are too flattering.

What exactly is the "problem" we're trying to solve here? That the final product is better than the illustrations? I'm okay with that.


Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> That camera is clearly not as WIS as it thought the waterfall was more important than the watch.


Thank you Dave. I was going to say, "I chose the background for the focus point. Everyone has seen your stupid watch a million times; fewer of us have seen Amicalola Falls in northern Georgia," but putting the blame on the camera is probably just more polite all around...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I love when I throw this on and sooner or later have my first experience of the dial coming alive. So great.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

kak1154 said:


> I would assume Rusty has one (and maybe Doc), but I wouldn't assume every potential customer has one.


You assume too much. 

Typically I'll have an image of the color I'm trying to represent next to the render preview on the same screen. No calibration needed ... in theory.

All of the challenges Doc listed above and those mentioned by X2 are absolutely true. Add to that the fact that I'm using the Lite version of the software and you get just a taste of what I work with when creating these pics.

As for representing dimensions, I don't see why that should be tough for anyone that knows how to use CAD apps. Of course, if someone is purposely misrepresenting the product... well, shame on them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Perdendosi said:


> Thank you Dave. I was going to say, "I chose the background for the focus point. Everyone has seen your stupid watch a million times; fewer of us have seen Amicalola Falls in northern Georgia," but putting the blame on the camera is probably just more polite all around...


Or you know... stop the lens down to something like F11, and get them both in focus. It certainly seems like there was enough light there for that to not be a problem. Ah well, hindsight


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Since the Subs have drilled lugs, maybe this question from another thread can be explained here, or not...

Question: Are the thru-the-lug holes drilled before the case is cut to shape?

Knowing how difficult it can be to drill clean holes in stainless steel on a straight and square stock, drilling a curved, tapered steel such as watch lugs looks like a recipe for many unusable/mistake cases. Or do I have the order of the steps to making a case wrong in my imagination?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



yankeexpress said:


> Since the Subs have drilled lugs, maybe this question from another thread can be explained here, or not...
> 
> Question: Are the thru-the-lug holes drilled before the case is cut to shape?
> 
> Knowing how difficult it can be to drill clean holes in stainless steel on a straight and square stock, drilling a curved, tapered steel such as watch lugs looks like a recipe for many unusable/mistake cases. Or do I have the order of the steps to making a case wrong in my imagination?


TL; DR - drilling the lug holes is a late-stage step in the process. The case already looks like a case, and is almost "done". It just hasn't been given its final finish yet.

I probably don't need to reiterate that my recent trip to China was a big eye-opener.

Until about 6 months ago, maybe further back (but before my trip either way), I had the mistaken notion that all cases and other metal parts were either CNC-machined (and that CNC machining was preferable), or cast in a mold - melting the steel to a liquid, and pouring it into a sand-cast or similar mold, which was less preferable, because of the "porosity" (read: "air-bubbles, basically, but without air") you get with cast parts.

That's not how it works, as it turns out. And in fact, I had a mini-debate about it with a guy on Facebook, who insisted 316L steel couldn't be formed by mold-casting. I insisted he was wrong, but in fact he was right, I was wrong, and if you're out there, guy, and maybe reading this, sorry for my ignorance at the time. Blame it on the fact the case factories use "molds" as a term when I think they really mean "tool and die".

Very few of the parts are CNC-machined, although the case factories do have CNC machines for parts with really complex shapes. And there's no liquid-steel casting from what I've seen.

The parts are generally cut from solid raw material, and then cold-forged (pounded into shape), so there's no issue with porosity in the parts, and no advantage I can see with CNC-machining (though a metal expert may come along to correct me on that).

EDIT - actually, CNC has the advantage of being able to work with tighter tolerances. I forget the precise numbers my factory gave me, but the difference between forging and CNC was something like 0.15mm tolerance for forging and 0.05mm for CNC. So, when you *NEED* tighter tolerances, you need to do CNC machining, but that doesn't equate to a "better" quality product. It could still be crap quality overall, because of poor finishing, or poor machining, which can still happen if the machine is programmed badly, or the follow-on processes aren't done correctly.

Again, I really wish FB hadn't deleted my videos, because I actually recorded big chunks of the process. The best I can do here is describe it.

When we talk about "molds" or "tooling charges" with case factories, it's not for casting. The tooling charges are for a surprising number of tool & die sets created for each case, with each set corresponding to a different step in the process, with each step adding more refinement to the part's shape.

The case factory starts out with long, flat sheets of steel, however thick they need to be to get the case blank thickness they need. The case blanks get cut from that sheet with a machine that's basically the cookie-cutter-of-the-gods.

That blank gets passed to another machine, basically the hole-punch-of-the-gods, for the center to be punched out.

From there, the case blank gets punched, pressed, prodded, pulled, packed, and pounded by a series of machines, each one adding incrementally more refinement to the shape, then super-heated (annealed) in a machine which (I swear this is what they told me) "re-arranges the atoms" of the steel, to remove impurities/weaknesses.

After the annealing, the cases actually go back through another round of punching, pressing, prodding, pulling, packing and pounding, then another round of annealing, more punching, pressing, etc, and that whole cycle gets repeated something like half a dozen times.

I think the processes of cold-forging and/or the annealing serve to harden the steel, as a side-benefit.

That's just what's happening at the case BLANK factory. That's not even the CASE factory. The case factory is a totally different factory, where the case blanks get sent for further refinement and tooling.

The case factory does the lug-hole drilling and final finishing (brushing/polishing). I'm pretty sure the case factory is also making the casebacks, adding the threads to the case for screw-in casebacks or drilling the holes in the case for screw-down casebacks. I'm also fairly certain the case factory adds the crown tube, crystals and WR gaskets, and does the WR pressure testing.

Not all cases can have drilled-through lugs. Indeed the external surface plays a part.

Deciding where to locate the lug holes is part art and part science. One of the things I rely on my OEM and/or the case factory engineers to do is figuring out where to best locate those holes, based on whether we're planning to mount a bracelet with fitted end-links, or a strap, the case thickness, lug-length vs case diameter, ease of attaching end-links, and aesthetics.

The lug holes have to be a minimum distance from the lug tips (clearance), as well as the top and bottom of the lugs, but preferably not too far inward, too low or too high on the lugs, etc.

If the lug length is really short compared to the diameter, it's possible a drill going through both lugs would also hit the case wall between them, which would be no bueno. I think this is why those Hamilton Pan Europs come with curved spring-bars. The lugs are so short compared to the case diameter that straight bars won't work, and the bars need to curve around the case.

If they determine that the lug holes have to be located in a spot where the outer opening of drilled-through holes would intersect with a surface transition on the outside of the lugs/case, then the holes can't be drilled through.

Not only would it be extremely difficult to place the tip of a drill bit securely on that spot without muffing it and damaging the case, even if you could do that, the hole wouldn't be "round", it would end up being tear-drop shaped due to being "shaved" by the angle of the adjoining surface.

I'm sure that doesn't make sense to everyone.

Imagine drilling a hole through the middle of a wood cube, from one side to its opposing side. The opening on each side of the tube you just drilled looks like a perfect circle.

Now imagine slicing that cube diagonally, to create a triangular wedge, with the hole you drilled having an opening on one of those flat sides, and the other opening in the diagonal surface you just created with that cut. That end of the tube you drilled is no longer a circle, it's now an oval.

Now vertically chop a bit off the wedge, near the bottom, cutting down through that hole on the diagonal side, to create a new, adjoining surface, which is vertical. What's that hole on your chopped diagonal/vertical surface look like?

It started as a round, vertical hole on the flat vertical surface of your cube, then it was an oval on a diagonal surface. It's no longer flat or diagonal, nor vertical. It's "bent" around the sloped diagonal surface and the adjoining vertical surface. It looks like a cone you sliced from top to bottom, then laid on its side.

It's an oval that takes a 90-degree turn to become a circle.

You want that on the side of your watch? Me neither.

It's not always a "choice" I'm making to not drill the lugs (it was once, but just once, on the Tropics). Sometimes we just CAN'T drill them through, no matter how much people b1tch about it.

If the lugs are going to be drilled through, then the case gets put in a jig, and a single drill bit passes through the lugs, from the outside of one side to the outside of the opposite side.

If the lugs are not drilled through, the jig has two drills with long bits aimed at the inside of the lugs from very oblique angles.

It's not laser-surgery. It's common for the location of the holes in one case to be a hair off from the next case. With holes that aren't drilled through, those holes aren't drilled perfectly perpendicular to the lugs' inner surface, and may not be perfectly paired to the hole on the opposite lug.

When you're sitting there, trying to get fitted end-links back onto a case, and you're cursing me, my factory, the heavens, and the watch-gods above, because one end of the stupid spring bar refuses to go into the lug hole, remember this...

1. You demanded solid end-links, or I can go to hell.
2. You demanded they fit snugly to the case, or I can go to hell.
3. Someone somewhere worked up a mental sweat figuring out where those holes had to be located, and that's the only possible spot that would work.
4. A small, middle-aged woman in China managed to get the spring bars to seat correctly without scratching the back of the lugs, then you went and removed the bracelet so you could fit a strap, so suck it up and quit yer b1tching.

...

I also visited a spring-bar factory. I didn't ask to see the spring bar factory, but the guy who owned the clasp factory we visited also owned the spring-bar factory around the corner, and wanted to show it to us, so we went and looked at it.

On the way there, I was groaning inside. Spring bars? Why would I want to see spring bars being made? I'll have to fake interest.

I was so wrong.

Spring bars are freaking amazing to me now.

Remember that scene near the end of the last "Matrix" movie, where all the little bots come out to play anal-intruder with Keanu Reeves? That's what the spring-bar factory reminded me of. Unlike all the other factories we visited, where every machine had at least one person working it, popping metal parts in and out, pushing buttons and pulling levers, very few people are involved in the process of making spring bars.

There was a whole room of intricate little machines whirring and chugging away, cutting, rolling, loading and pressing spring-bars together, with one or two guys running around re-loading them with the parts the machines need. The area with the most people was the table where a dozen people bundle the bars together and package them for shipping.

I have a newfound respect for spring bars.

I actually forgot almost everything I saw in the clasp factory because of the spring bar factory.

...

Best job in any of the factories, aside from being the owner, at least from what I saw - the QC guy in the bracelet factory. After the bracelets are assembled, they go to this guy, who sits at a table and slaps them against a miniature pommel horse, I guess to make sure they flex as expected, but without flying apart.

He was doing one or two other things, too, but without the video to watch, I don't remember what those things were. I was mesmerized by this guy slapping steel around, showing those bracelets he's the boss. I literally could have stood there and watched this guy for 10 minutes without getting bored. It was zen-like.

...

Worst job in any of the factories, if you're me, with no patience or manual dexterity - attaching tiny stuff to dials. I'm not talking about applied indices or applied logos, oh no. I'll have to come back and post pics from my phone, but they showed me these dials with a $hlt-ton of rhinestones on them.

Each stone has a little setting it sits in, like the prongs holding a diamond to an engagement ring. Each of those little cups has to be precisely located and attached to those dials without damaging the existing color or dial finish, then each tiny little stone has to be glued into one of those cups.

It was kind of funny, because these were not cheap dials to make, but this wasn't even *our* dial factory. Apparently the *good* dial factory we use was three hours away by high-speed train, and this was just a factory they use sometimes, when they need something done on the cheap and quality isn't as crucial.

They brought me there because I wanted to see all the processes involved, but they didn't want to kill an entire day just seeing one factory with a six-hour round trip train ride.

Before we got there, my guys from HK went out of their way to tell me not to mention the fact that we were going to get lunch when we left there, because the factory owner would insist on coming with us and picking up the check, which is pretty standard practice it seems, and they didn't feel right about letting him do that, considering the fact they hardly give this factory any business at all.

As it turns out, the factory owner went to lunch before we got there, and we settled for yet-another-tea-ceremony with his assistant. If the Chinese are looking for a way to cut out some of the production delays, I'd start with taking the tea-tables out of the owners' offices.

I don't think the factory owner was hurting for money or prestige. On the wall of his office was a photo of him shaking hands with PRC President Xi Jinping, smiling like the cat that ate the canary.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Those dials...










Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

Annealing makes a metal 'softer' and more formable, so it's done if you have a need to pound on it and shape it. If I remember correctly, 316L work hardens, so the forging process would end up hardening it (which you want), but if you don't anneal it between forging steps, it'd eventually end up cracking.

(Haven't ever worked with 316L myself, but when cold working copper-based alloys like brass/bronze you have to follow the same principle of hammering/annealing cycles; different alloys will have different requirements/processes to anneal them though)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Iandk said:


> Annealing re-arranges the atoms in the steel.


FTFY.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Soooo the cases are basically pounded into shape, then? Cool.

That also sounds like a fitting theme for Chuck Tingle's next novel.


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

docvail said:


>


Saw the photo before reading the novel; thought it was supposed to be buckshot.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Spring bars are freaking amazing to me now.
> 
> Remember that scene near the end of the last "Matrix" movie, where all the little bots come out to play anal-intruder with Keanu Reeves? That's what the spring-bar factory reminded me of. Unlike all the other factories we visited, where every machine had at least one person working it, popping metal parts in and out, pushing buttons and pulling levers, very few people are involved in the process of making spring bars.
> 
> ...


And yet they are still a giant PITA. One of the many reasons why my straps are all Chris Wards and Bartons. I even went to trouble of giving my ColaReb strap a couple of incisions so I could get it to accept QR bars. Just out of curiosity, is there a reason why QR is so rare in bracelets? Does the added weight make QR pins more likely to fall out or something? It would seem to be a pretty logical solution to the "I can't get the bracelet back on" problem, and leather straps are often not much better. It probably took 10 minutes to get that friggen Dangerous9 strap off of my Evant Tropic.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

QR springbars all the way. Currently on vacation, and enjoying the fact that I can change from a rubber strap to one or two leather straps in 5 seconds, without needing a knife or needle or a springbar tool at all. Heck, I didn't even need to *take* any tools with me on vacation - just the watch and the two spare straps. Done deal, minimal clutter.

Converting a strap to take QR bars is easy, too - just make a straight incision in the strap underside (no widening necessary), done. QR bars sell on ebay for not much more than "normal" bars. 

Bracelets, unfortunately, remain a problem. Iirc some QR-bracelet designs are patented, too. But inevitably, in 5 years or so, QR-bracelets will become yet another standard of quality, same as sapphire crystals or SS/ceramic/sapphire bezel inserts.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

I think this is old news, but coverage from the local rag:

Perfect timing: $140,000 donation helps veterans watchmaker school - News - Middletown Transcript - Middletown, DE


----------



## Hsvu (Jan 24, 2018)

I have received my Renegade today.
Absolute AMAZING piece.
Of course the design is stunnnig. The lume insane. The case sick.
But I was blown away by the bezel. This thing has ZERO wobble, it is absolutely tight.

WatchGauge was absolutely amazing: great communication throughout and worked really hard to accommodate my timing .

















Thank you Doc for a trully stunning piece. Very very happy with my purchase!!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> And yet they are still a giant PITA. One of the many reasons why my straps are all Chris Wards and Bartons. I even went to trouble of giving my ColaReb strap a couple of incisions so I could get it to accept QR bars. Just out of curiosity, is there a reason why QR is so rare in bracelets? Does the added weight make QR pins more likely to fall out or something? It would seem to be a pretty logical solution to the "I can't get the bracelet back on" problem, and leather straps are often not much better. It probably took 10 minutes to get that friggen Dangerous9 strap off of my Evant Tropic.


I don't know enough about quick-release bars to know why they're not used more, or with bracelets, but I trust there must be a valid reason, otherwise we'd see them.


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

Hsvu said:


> I have received my Renegade today.
> Absolute AMAZING piece.
> Of course the design is stunnnig. The lume insane. The case sick.
> But I was blown away by the bezel. This thing has ZERO wobble, it is absolutely tight.
> ...


Looks great!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

First of the month, perfect for a date window at 6.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hsvu said:


> I have received my Renegade today.
> Absolute AMAZING piece.
> Of course the design is stunnnig. The lume insane. The case sick.
> But I was blown away by the bezel. This thing has ZERO wobble, it is absolutely tight.
> ...


Glad you like it, and that it was a good experience working with John @ WG. I'm happy to hear people are happy with the performance of our retail partners.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Another happy WG Customer here


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> I don't know enough about quick-release bars to know why they're not used more, or with bracelets, but I trust there must be a valid reason, otherwise we'd see them.


I wouldn't be so sure.

This industry is often resistant to accepting innovation.

Doc Savage


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

It's crazy how popular the Näcken Modern Blue (NMB) version has gotten. Sold out at SeriousW., and John from WatchGauge just said in a recent vid that even the next preorders for NMB are all booked. 
I guess, by now, the NMB is the "reference" or "baseline" NTH Sub.


----------



## Anthony (Jan 14, 2007)

Hello,

About Nacken modern blue, have you guys had any problems fitting endpieces back to the case? I have tried like 40minutes now or more trying to get endpieces back between the lugs and pins locked in place.

Somehow spring bar always locks in place in other end but not from the other. Pinhole seems to be bit lower where the pin is, I have tried everything, pushing the sprinbar down, moving the endpiece, but I just cant get both springbars in pin hole. This goes for both top lugs and bottom lugs.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> It's crazy how popular the Näcken Modern Blue (NMB) version has gotten. Sold out at SeriousW., and John from WatchGauge just said in a recent vid that even the next preorders for NMB are all booked.
> I guess, by now, the NMB is the "reference" or "baseline" NTH Sub.


I dunno. I sure see a lot more Modern Blacks here on WUS.

Doc Savage


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The fitment on the Santa Fe I had was very very tight. It needed quite a bit of pushing and prodding with a springbar tool. Basically, get one end in to the hole (and the endlink itself in the right position), and pretty much force the other springbar end into the hole with the tool (springbar will pretty much bend a bit).

So basically, you gotta pry the pin into the slot using a needle or a tool. It's not gonna "slot in" by itself.

...

I guess this is one of the reasons why QR bars are difficult to implement with bracelets - with QR bars, there's no way to "force" them into place by bending the bars. The QR must perfectly fit into the holes, straight. And the bracelet thus must fit perfectly and securely to the case, *without* jamming the bar. Which in turn implies that the bar alone cannot be the only locking mechanism forcing the bracelet-end to jam and stick into place.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> I wouldn't be so sure.
> 
> This industry is often resistant to accepting innovation.
> 
> Doc Savage


Mehhh...the "industry" may be resistant, but microbrand owners seem to always be looking for some way to "disrupt the industry" and "reinvent" something or other. It's hard for me to imagine no one has thought of it and asked their factory about it by now, and discovered the reason why it's not done.



X2-Elijah said:


> It's crazy how popular the Näcken Modern Blue (NMB) version has gotten. Sold out at SeriousW., and John from WatchGauge just said in a recent vid that even the next preorders for NMB are all booked.
> I guess, by now, the NMB is the "reference" or "baseline" NTH Sub.


Blame TGV of the Urban Gentry.

The Näcken Modern Blue was middle-of-the-pack before he put a spotlight on it. We made 30 initially, and I didn't plan on making more anytime soon, but the market suddenly became ravenous for them, and we've since made another 155, all of which have sold quickly.

Will I make more?

I told John about a month ago I didn't think we should make more too soon, because I can't help but feel like the market can't possibly absorb too many more, and we should sit tight and let demand build up for a while.

But since he's sold the latest/current batch of 60 before we've even got them in stock, I suspect he'll be pissing in my ear about making more before too long.



Anthony said:


> Hello,
> 
> About Nacken modern blue, have you guys had any problems fitting endpieces back to the case? I have tried like 40minutes now or more trying to get endpieces back between the lugs and pins locked in place.
> 
> Somehow spring bar always locks in place in other end but not from the other. Pinhole seems to be bit lower where the pin is, I have tried everything, pushing the sprinbar down, moving the endpiece, but I just cant get both springbars in pin hole. This goes for both top lugs and bottom lugs.


I'm guessing you didn't catch this epic post a few pages back:



docvail said:


> ...It's not laser-surgery. It's common for the location of the holes in one case to be a hair off from the next case...
> 
> When you're sitting there, trying to get fitted end-links back onto a case, and you're cursing me, my factory, the heavens, and the watch-gods above, because one end of the stupid spring bar refuses to go into the lug hole, remember this...
> 
> ...


It can take a bit of finagling, sometimes.

It may be your spring bar is a little bent. Sometimes they get a bit "out of whack" when they're removed, and don't want to go back into place. Trying a new one often does the trick.

I've used all sorts of techniques - levering bar-ends into place using tools like they're crowbars, wrapping dental floss around the tips and yanking them outward into place, etc.

I recently picked up a set of quality spring-bar tweezers from Essligner. They're not cheap but they work well in many situations.









Hope some of that helps.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I told John about a month ago I didn't think we should make more too soon, because I can't help but feel like the market can't possibly absorb too many more, and we should sit tight and let demand build up for a while.


Makes sense. In theory, it's always better to underproduce, not overproduce.

Then again, if these are selling like hotcakes at the MSRP... *shrug* why not.

But it is/was a bit weird to see watchgauge taking preorders for NMB for delivery in october/november or so, and at the same time take preorders for the renegade/zvardvis/etc for august. Two different preorder batches, with different delivery times, available simultaneously... Seems very weird. I mean, from buyer perspective, I'd expect all existing preorders of a single watch model to be realized at the same time. Then again, I guess staggered releases isn't uncommon for big brands with AD networks like tudor/rolex/oris...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Makes sense. In theory, it's always better to underproduce, not overproduce.
> 
> Then again, if these are selling like hotcakes at the MSRP... *shrug* why not.
> 
> But it is/was a bit weird to see watchgauge taking preorders for NMB for delivery in october/november or so, and at the same time take preorders for the renegade/zvardvis/etc for august. Two different preorder batches, with different delivery times, available simultaneously... Seems very weird. I mean, from buyer perspective, I'd expect all existing preorders of a single watch model to be realized at the same time. Then again, I guess staggered releases isn't uncommon for big brands with AD networks like tudor/rolex/oris...


No, I think you're right, it is weird, and wasn't what I'd have planned. Things just happened to shake out that way.

We had 30 pieces being made for this most recent delivery, which I thought would be enough, but they sold quickly, and enough people were asking for them that John wanted another 60 for October.

I tried to talk him down off the 30 number, because I wanted to make more of the new versions we just brought out, like the Scorpène Blue, Barracuda Blue, and Renegade, but he wouldn't be swayed. I actually had plans to make other versions in that batch, but had to push them to this pending batch.

I tried to talk him down from the pending 60 number, too, but again, he wouldn't have it. I was very concerned we'd get caught with unsold inventory sitting around, but he was supremely confident. What am I going to do, NOT sell them to him when he's adamant, and has guys emailing him every day?

That's why I'm not sure if or when we'll make more or how many we'd make if or when we do. This feels like when I visited the commodities trading floor in NY. It was exactly like the frozen concentrated orange juice pit in "Trading Places".

I asked the guy showing me around how the traders decide how they'll gamble millions of dollars, making quick decisions all day long, with seemingly no access to outside info?

"They do it by feel."

I think we'll likely have some staggered delivery on the current batch in production, some shipped a little sooner than some others, like the Holland, which didn't exist even as a concept a month ago. I don't currently plan to have another pre-order overlap this one, but anything can happen in the next ~60 days, and I could be announcing more of something or some new version.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

> wrapping dental floss around the tips and yanking them outward into place, etc.


What now? We need a technique video on this...

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pb9610 said:


> What now? We need a technique video on this...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


No you don't.

This is just a trick to use if the bar end is sitting lower than the lug hole when you're looking into the lugs from the back. The end doesn't need to be pushed forward, back or down. It needs to be pulled up.

Get the bar into the end-link. Wrap dental floss around one end, whichever one isn't cooperating. Leave enough floss to wrap both ends around a couple fingers.

Get the end-link between the lugs, get the other side of the bar seated. Is the end with the floss sitting under the hole?

Pull upward on the floss. When the tip of the bar seats, let go of one end of the floss, and pull it out by the other end.

And Robert is yer father's brother.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## Anthony (Jan 14, 2007)

X2-Elijah said:


> The fitment on the Santa Fe I had was very very tight. It needed quite a bit of pushing and prodding with a springbar tool. Basically, get one end in to the hole (and the endlink itself in the right position), and pretty much force the other springbar end into the hole with the tool (springbar will pretty much bend a bit).
> 
> So basically, you gotta pry the pin into the slot using a needle or a tool. It's not gonna "slot in" by itself.
> 
> ...


Holy crap batman, I got one end in !I was again in "stuck mode" with one end in and one out. What I did was pulled back the spring on the stuck one, and jiggled then endpiece, when i suddenl heard satisfying *click*! Now I try bottom endlink&#8230;

EDIT : Bottom endlink in place. I believe.

Splendid.


----------



## Anthony (Jan 14, 2007)

X2-Elijah said:


> It's crazy how popular the Näcken Modern Blue (NMB) version has gotten. Sold out at SeriousW., and John from WatchGauge just said in a recent vid that even the next preorders for NMB are all booked.
> I guess, by now, the NMB is the "reference" or "baseline" NTH Sub.


Thats true, or thats at least how I felt when I tried to track one NMB. Now one is on my wrist and I could not be happier. I believe I know why NMB is popular. Let me tell you a story (with my bad English)

I never liked colored watched. No green, no red, no yellow no blue should ever reside on the dial of a wristwatch. Black was a good color for a dial. However, when I first saw NMB, I thought thats one cool dial : I had never seen that tone of color (blue) in a watch and I knew I had to get that. Its almost like metallic blue, not paint but it reminds me more of a metal discolored by heat. Also I always loved contrast on a dial, like sub or speedy. This watch got great contrast. And that lume, its a strong lume. Also I like the size and proportions of the case.

EDIT : About bracelet links and my fight with endlinks : When I fiddled around with bracelet links, I noticed that some link screws were not tightened well. I tightened every screw, but I plan to put some threadlock in (I got one small tube from Sinn)


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Nth Devil Ray on Seiko z22 strap..








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Doc I want more pictures of the new Nazario I saw a teaser of on Facebook earlier.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

There's one on doc's instagram.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

That’s the one I’m talking about


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Sunday at the pool hall


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I don't know enough about quick-release bars to know why they're not used more, or with bracelets, but I trust there must be a valid reason, otherwise we'd see them.


It's just weird, the $15 junk bracelets you can get on Amazon have them, but you won't find them on anything expensive, well expect for proprietary stuff like the Panerai QR system, or the custom bracelet that ML uses in their Genta homage. Similarly, pretty much all of the cheap silicone straps have them, but you won't find them on something like an ISOfrane. I don't get it, they make life _so much easier_. It's great being able to just swap on a different color strap whenever the mood strikes, and/or bring a couple of wet/dry straps if you're taking only one watch on vacation somewhere. They're not in a position where something is likely to accidentally knock into them like a crown, and I don't get the sense that regular bars are massively more robust or something. That's the whole point of a NATO, springbars break.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

winstoda said:


> I think this is old news, but coverage from the local rag:
> 
> Perfect timing: $140,000 donation helps veterans watchmaker school - News - Middletown Transcript - Middletown, DE


Cheers, Dave! This needs a bump, that's seriously awesome.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> Doc I want more pictures of the new Nazario I saw a teaser of on Facebook earlier.











Howboudat?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Snack on that..........









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Snack on that..........
> 
> View attachment 13356853
> 
> ...


Great.

Now I'm hungry for alien...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Damned duplicate post.

Seriously, what's up with this forum lately? Sheesh.


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> Great.
> 
> Now I'm hungry for alien...


Again...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> It's crazy how popular the Näcken Modern Blue (NMB) version has gotten. Sold out at SeriousW., and John from WatchGauge just said in a recent vid that even the next preorders for NMB are all booked.
> I guess, by now, the NMB is the "reference" or "baseline" NTH Sub.


Modern Blue? Yawn.









=









Get some texture and cream on that dial . . .









=


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Damned duplicate post.
> 
> Seriously, what's up with this forum lately? Sheesh.


It's dem aliens........


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Modern Blue? Yawn.
> 
> Get some texture and cream on that dial . . .
> 
> View attachment 13356907


Agreed. I really dig the Vintage Blue.

Doc Savage


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

ck2k01 said:


> Modern Blue? Yawn.
> 
> View attachment 13356929
> 
> ...


I'm not sure where you are going with this. But Selleck using a cord phone without a cord pretending its a cordless phone is priceless!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> View attachment 13356925
> 
> 
> View attachment 13356935


----------



## helot (Jun 27, 2018)

ck2k01 said:


> Modern Blue? Yawn.
> 
> Get some texture and cream on that dial . . .


Agreed.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13357077


I could have gone the rest of my life without seeing that

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Rhorya said:


> I could have gone the rest of my life without seeing that
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yep, burned into your memory cells and now you can't unsee it............ drat & double drat that Doc Vail and his perverse image library........


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Ok Doc, when’s the big reveal? I want to see what bezel insert you’ve chosen. Red would be the shizzle.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> Ok Doc, when's the big reveal? I want to see what bezel insert you've chosen. Red would be the shizzle.


There are no red bezels coming from NTH, ever. Everyone can stop asking. There's no such thing as red PVD from my suppliers.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I could have gone the rest of my life without seeing that
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





Ragl said:


> Yep, burned into your memory cells and now you can't unsee it............ drat & double drat that Doc Vail and his perverse image library........


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> Ok Doc, when's the big reveal? I want to see what bezel insert you've chosen. Red would be the shizzle.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13356845
> 
> 
> Howboudat?


Full lume California dial? Sweet. 

BGW9 or the new white superluminova?

Edit : Just saw that it's BGW9. |>


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

Another white dial?!?!
YES PLEASE!!!


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13357269
> 
> 
> View attachment 13357273


Screw the Blorpene.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Doc does a Cali Dial. Never thought I’d see the day, but love the result.

Now waiting for the unicorns to gallop past...

Ric


----------



## thewodg (Dec 3, 2015)

docvail said:


> But, hypothetically, if I was going to do a sell-off, here's what I think would be on the chopping block:
> 
> NTH Amphions, all three that I have - the Modern Black, Dark Gilt, and Vintage Black.
> 
> As much as I thought I was doing this to make my own perfect MilSub, none of them gets worn much. I seem to prefer the snowflake hands and square markers of the Näckens.


Can't believe no one has tried to take you up on this yet! I also think the Amphion Modern Black is the perfect milsub, and I would wear it proudly if you were semi-serious about parting with it, especially since it doesn't sound like any more will be available in the upcoming production...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Ric Capucho said:


> Doc does a Cali Dial. Never thought I'd see the day, but love the result.
> 
> Now waiting for the unicorns to gallop past...
> 
> Ric


I love a Cali dial, but given my vision issues, full-lume just doesn't do it for me, especially with lumed hands. All-black hands might work.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> Doc does a Cali Dial. Never thought I'd see the day, but love the result.
> 
> Now waiting for the unicorns to gallop past...
> 
> Ric


Go home, Ric, yer drunk.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

thewodg said:


> Can't believe no one has tried to take you up on this yet! I also think the Amphion Modern Black is the perfect milsub, and I would wear it proudly if you were semi-serious about parting with it, especially since it doesn't sound like any more will be available in the upcoming production...


Someone did take me up on it. MikeyT camped out on my digital doorstep and pounced on me as I was on my way to Facebook, demanding first crack at my Amphion Dark Gilt, which he now owns.

I'm doing a big sell off, I just haven't had time to create the listings on f29.

The Amphion Modern and Vintage Black are both available.

Shoot me a message through my website (*INCLUDE YOUR SHIPPING COUNTRY*). A lot of stuff is on the chopping block:

Amphion Modern No Date - $500 (SOLD!)

Amphion Vintage Black No Date - $475 (SOLD!)

Nacken Modern Black No Date - $500. (SOLD!)

Santa Fe - $500.

Acionna, White - $300.

Acionna, Black - $300.

Cerberus, Gray/Red - $350

Orthos 1, Blue/Orange - $350

Orthos 1, Red/Gray - $350

Orthos II Commander 300, Black, No Date - $450 (SOLD!)

Helson Sharkmaster - $625

Add $10 shipping for USA, $25 for Canada, $35 everywhere else.

I prefer a friends & family payment via PayPal.

Everything is good condition, practically mint condition. My watches don't get worn much.

Prices include "full kit" - box, any papers, spare links, one-year warranty on anything my company produced, and I'll probably be throwing in whatever straps happen to be on them, which includes some nice NATOs and such.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> ...full-lume just doesn't do it for me, especially with lumed hands. All-black hands might work.


Wait for it...


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

docvail said:


> Acionna, White - $300.


You're like a drug dealer.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

pb9610 said:


> You're like a drug dealer.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Pfffft!

Drug dealers don't have loyalty rewards programs.

Those guys are amateurs.


----------



## thewodg (Dec 3, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'm doing a big sell off, I just haven't had time to create the listings on f29.
> 
> The Amphion Modern and Vintage Black are both available.
> 
> Shoot me a message through my website. A lot of stuff is on the chopping block:


Glad I said something! Shot you a message on your website... Thanks, Doc!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So I have two rules. I need a date function and no Roman numerals. But that’s just me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Agreed. I really dig the Vintage Blue.
> 
> Doc Savage


I can't post a link, but Serious Watches still has some NVB inventory available.

Just sayin'...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> So I have two rules. I need a date function and no Roman numerals. But that's just me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Awesome.

Sign you up for two, then?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13357269
> 
> 
> View attachment 13357273


I dig it. While I still might want to try to snag a unicorn original Nazario some time, I could see this variant replacing my Santa Fe.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I can't post a link, but Serious Watches still has some NVB inventory available.
> 
> Just sayin'...


Here: https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth/products/nth-nacken-vintage-blue-no-date


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

For those unaware, this is what inspired the original. It's a really interesting watch, kind of a proto-chronograph. I love that dish shaped bezel too, you really don't see anything like that today.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

docvail said:


> Someone did take me up on it.


I don't see the engraved Acinnoa on the list. That's because I snapped it up. After 30 hours it's running zero point zero s/d. 



Love that 9015.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Pfffft!
> 
> Drug dealers don't have loyalty rewards programs.
> 
> Those guys are amateurs.


Their stuff isn't as addictive as yours, either....


----------



## Solace (Jun 3, 2018)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13357269
> 
> 
> View attachment 13357273


This looks awesome. Have you revealed size yet? My small wrists are hoping for 40mm, haha.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Solace said:


> This looks awesome. Have you revealed size yet? My small wrists are hoping for 40mm, haha.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


It's a Sub, so 40.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13357269
> 
> 
> View attachment 13357273


@rpm1974 -- Damn, Rusty. Seriously.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

JakeJD said:


> @rpm1974 -- Damn, Rusty. Seriously.


Nazario Sauro roughly translates to Sorry, Not SorryO






It'd be nice if Doc would take it easy on us but, Nahh!


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Ok I need that nazario. Is there a way to pre-pre-order lol

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



skuzapo said:


> Ok I need that nazario. Is there a way to pre-pre-order lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Wait a few weeks, and yes.

It wouldn't hurt to subscribe to our email newsletter, and even Watch Gauge's, and follow us on social media. Do that, I guarantee you won't miss the pre-order start date announcement.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> I'm doing a big sell off, I just haven't had time to create the listings on f29.
> 
> The Amphion Modern and Vintage Black are both available.
> 
> ...


If you contact me, please include your shipping country in your email.

Also, if I reply, please get back to me soon. If I have someone else interested, I'll give you 24 hours, but after that, it's back on the chopping block. I'm not playing the "on hold pending funds" game for days on end.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

JakeJD said:


> @rpm1974 -- Damn, Rusty. Seriously.


Aww shucks... thanks for that. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Wait for it...
> 
> View attachment 13357855


Ooh. Ooh. I bet know what that is! Can I guess?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Picked up the Näcken Renegade Date. Will post more thoughts later on, just wanted to mention that a) it's the best Sub version I've had so far & looks very high-end, and ii) SeriousWatches packaging and customer service was/has been above exceptional. You've picked an amazing EU partner, doc - very VERY convenient for me as a customer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> Ooh. Ooh. I bet know what that is! Can I guess?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Picked up the Näcken Renegade Date. Will post more thoughts later on, just wanted to mention that a) it's the best Sub version I've had so far & looks very high-end, and ii) SeriousWatches packaging and customer service was/has been above exceptional. You've picked an amazing EU partner, doc - very VERY convenient for me as a customer.


Glad to hear it. I'm hoping the partnership with Kaj and Serious continues to grow, because he's been as great to work with behind the scenes as people have said his team is on your end of the transaction.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Can someone please tell me if there is a difference in black shade on the dial of modern amphion vs nacken? I am curious if modern amphion has deeper black color. Trying to justify another sub


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Can someone please tell me if there is a difference in black shade on the dial of modern amphion vs nacken? I am curious if modern amphion has deeper black color. Trying to justify another sub


Same black.

Amphion Modern sold. Näcken Modern still available.

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Thanks doc, i have the nacken modern but wanted to justify adding amphion as well.
This makes the decision easy for me lol.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Thanks doc, i have the nacken modern but wanted to justify adding amphion as well.
> This makes the decision easy for me lol.


Still got the vintage.

Just sayin'...

Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Has anyone here ever seen a full-lume California dial before? I can't remember any, and a Google image search didn't turn any up in the first page of results.

This is kind of / part of what I was saying before, about starting to push out the boundaries of "homage".

Rolex made two versions of the Zerographe with white dials, one of which inspired the blue-gold hands on this version of the Nazario, but neither of the Rolex versions was a Cali dial, and of course not full-lume, ours isn't a chrono, doesn't have the inverted bezel slope, uses different hands, etc.

At what point does it cease to be "an homage", and becomes "original"?










Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> At what point does it cease to be "an homage", and becomes "original"?


First, I'm a phan (& lurker). Your line of watches are eye catchers, and are priced really favorably. The subs look amazing, the next better than the previous. I refuse to be a desk diver though, so I need to find a pool/body of water to spend more time in to justify.

About the homage v. original, I think a lot of that has to do with you and your message. I wouldn't have considered the Nazario a homage based on the old Rolexes, because those old Rolexes don't have any purchase in my mind. But when you connect the dots, and based on the other models of yours that do closely resemble classic watches, the homage label just follows along.

To be original, changing the dial and case shape are probably the most necessary. The differentiator is probably somewhere along the lines of, if one had the original watch and wanted to modify/customize it themselves, what could they reasonably do to make it theirs, but still obviously the watch they bought? Changing hands is too easy, getting someone to paint/modify the dial is doable, finding a new bezel/insert (if there is a bezel insert) is a possibility. If those were the significant changes (or lack thereof), homage label would be hard to shake.

Changing the case shape/bezel is a good way to show originality. Going from indices to a California dial, adding features (sub seconds, power reserve, date window/pointer, GMT, etc.)


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I was actually reflecting on the same thing this morning while thinking about the two Nazario versions. I like almost all of the subs designs, but I'm increasingly finding that the more unique variants speak to me the most.

I think you're screwed in ever separating the subs from the homage label, though, chiefly because the base is known as the NTH _Sub_-probably even more so than the physical case design-and because some of the earlier runs included some closer homages (even granted the fact that some of the original references are highly unrealistic grails). So WISs automatically think Rolex Submariner, rather than the clever naming scheme of actual submarines. If you hadn't referred to the subs collectively as such, or been as transparent about the specific historical influences, reviewers probably would have commented "clearly takes cues from," like the DevilRay, rather than "a clever homage," as the subs get.

All of that said, part of the charm of the subs are that in addition to great specs and price (I 'aint paying Rolex collector prices), you get Doc-style thoughtfulness--explanations of historical references known mostly to Rolex/Tudor/Tag collectors, similarities and distinctions, etc., all with clever plays on the primary military submariner referent (e.g., the submarines model names).


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Nah, the Subs would have always been called homages (if not worse). The first round of Näckens were pretty often called Tudor Pelagos homages on social media and youtube comments. Imo it's better that docvail went all-in with explaining the inspirations and laying it all out there - it gave a good counterpoint to all the "its just a copy" comments. 

And, hey, let's be frank - both the case shape, the bezel layout, and most if not all dials are indeed inspired by, and make reference to, various rolex and tudor watches. I've realized that that ain't a bad thing... 'Cos the end result is fantastic.


----------



## bjjkk (Oct 20, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> For those unaware, this is what inspired the original. It's a really interesting watch, kind of a proto-chronograph. I love that dish shaped bezel too, you really don't see anything like that today.


Wow, that is a cool watch. Anyone know what the pusher is for?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

bjjkk said:


> Wow, that is a cool watch. Anyone know what the pusher is for?


Check the video here: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/rarest-rolex-chronographs-in-the-w


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

I don't disagree with you X2-Elijah, but Doc is making his own pieces with thought and consideration as well. In regards to the previous releases, the education was important to show there was intent, instead of a hack job. But now that folks are readily comparing NTH to references of yore, Doc could be losing earned credit for making design choices that are his, even if inspired by a previous iteration. So the question as stated becomes a subjective measure of "how much change is necessary to be original, if inspired previously by past watches?" One could answer, no amount of change is enough. But that answer is myopic and boring.

Doc, do you have a local retailer in the Philadelphia area? If no, my two favorite jewelers are Martin Pulli in Manayunk, and LL Pavorsky in Center City.


----------



## bjjkk (Oct 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> If you'd said, "Doc, you should make a watch with a light blue sunburst dial and a brown bezel", I'd have thought you were crazy. That doesn't sound right.
> 
> But, then Kaj from Serious watches hits me with, "Chris, can we make something with the color scheme from this Daytona?"
> 
> ...


I have had your watches in my cart many times. Something always stop me from completing the order though. Usually stupid stuff like mortgage payments and groceries, but the Holland might be my first NTH, if the Mercedes hand doesn't stop me. Is the design finalized? Any chance the hands will be changed?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

bjjkk said:


> I have had your watches in my cart many times. Something always stop me from completing the order though. Usually stupid stuff like mortgage payments and groceries, but the Holland might be my first NTH, if the Mercedes hand doesn't stop me. Is the design finalized? Any chance the hands will be changed?


Every time I've asked the answer has been no. So I lightheartedly threaten that I'm going to mod and post a picture.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

bjjkk said:


> Is the design finalized?


Yep.



bjjkk said:


> Any chance the hands will be changed?


Nope.


----------



## bjjkk (Oct 20, 2011)

Nice, love the snowflake hands


----------



## bjjkk (Oct 20, 2011)

rpm1974 said:


> Yep.
> 
> Nope.


Oh well, my wallet thanks you. Any chance that light blue dial color will make it to a Naken?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> I was actually reflecting on the same thing this morning while thinking about the two Nazario versions. I like almost all of the subs designs, but I'm increasingly finding that the more unique variants speak to me the most.
> 
> I think you're screwed in ever separating the subs from the homage label, though, chiefly because the base is known as the NTH _Sub_-probably even more so than the physical case design-and because some of the earlier runs included some closer homages (even granted the fact that some of the original references are highly unrealistic grails). So WISs automatically think Rolex Submariner, rather than the clever naming scheme of actual submarines. If you hadn't referred to the subs collectively as such, or been as transparent about the specific historical influences, reviewers probably would have commented "clearly takes cues from," like the DevilRay, rather than "a clever homage," as the subs get.
> 
> All of that said, part of the charm of the subs are that in addition to great specs and price (I 'aint paying Rolex collector prices), you get Doc-style thoughtfulness--explanations of historical references known mostly to Rolex/Tudor/Tag collectors, similarities and distinctions, etc., all with clever plays on the primary military submariner referent (e.g., the submarines model names).


I was thinking about a response to this^ when I read this:



X2-Elijah said:


> Nah, the Subs would have always been called homages (if not worse). The first round of Näckens were pretty often called Tudor Pelagos homages on social media and youtube comments. Imo it's better that docvail went all-in with explaining the inspirations and laying it all out there - it gave a good counterpoint to all the "its just a copy" comments.
> 
> And, hey, let's be frank - both the case shape, the bezel layout, and most if not all dials are indeed inspired by, and make reference to, various rolex and tudor watches. I've realized that that ain't a bad thing... 'Cos the end result is fantastic.


There are lots of "Sub" homages from companies which don't make any reference to Rolex/Tudor in their branding, model names, or marketing. Everyone still calls them "Sub homages".

In fact, some folks seem to ascribe to the brand owners some degree of subterfuge, suggesting that the brands are somehow trying to deny the connection to the source of inspiration. I guess for some guys, the crime of producing an homage is compounded by not acknowledging that it's an homage.

I hope this doesn't sound cliched at all, but I wanted to treat the matter in a way that at least felt authentic to me, and hopefully looks and sounds authentic to others.

The gist of it is, yes, we took inspiration from these Rolex/Tudor models, but also took some other cues from within that Rolex/Tudor history and design lexicon, and even some completely unrelated sources, then we tried to give people a good mix of stuff that stayed very true to the originals, and stuff that...I guess the most fair way to describe the other stuff is to say they're all a mash-up of familiar design cues without any being a direct homage to anything in particular.

Some people WANT a close homage to the 5513/5517, and some people would rather have a Santa Cruz, which really doesn't look much like any Rolex, beyond the Merc hands and dial pattern.

I don't so much care about the haters and the criticism. I wish folks could let go of their biases enough to appreciate things for what they are, not what people think they're trying to be, or what they're not. It would be great if people could accept the homage thing AND appreciate the new stuff we brought to the table, and the quality of the product, etc.

For me, working with Aaron and Rusty, and getting some other guys involved, and seeing how much we can explore what we can do with the Subs as a foundation, has been fun, and I like what we've produced. I like that there are people who get what we're doing and like it. I'm not looking for a parade, just a little slack on the whole "just an homage" thing, because it gets tiresome, and I don't see the point.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

bjjkk said:


> Oh well, my wallet thanks you. Any chance that light blue dial color will make it to a Naken?


I wouldn't say "never" but your chances are much better if you and 49 friends to send money to Docvail and ask for it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> I don't disagree with you X2-Elijah, but Doc is making his own pieces with thought and consideration as well. In regards to the previous releases, the education was important to show there was intent, instead of a hack job. But now that folks are readily comparing NTH to references of yore, Doc could be losing earned credit for making design choices that are his, even if inspired by a previous iteration. So the question as stated becomes a subjective measure of "how much change is necessary to be original, if inspired previously by past watches?" One could answer, no amount of change is enough. But that answer is myopic and boring.
> 
> Doc, do you have a local retailer in the Philadelphia area? If no, my two favorite jewelers are Martin Pulli in Manayunk, and LL Pavorsky in Center City.


The bricks-n-mortar thing hasn't been a priority. I'm on the Main Line, in Wayne. If someone wanted to see something I had in my office, they could contact me through the website, and we could make a date to link up somewhere locally, and they can look at as much as I have here.



bjjkk said:


> Oh well, my wallet thanks you. Any chance that light blue dial color will make it to a Naken?


I doubt it.

The light blue works on the Holland becauseof the applied markers with steel frames. Consider the two types of markers on a Nacken - applied, but with the frames coated white (the "feta cheese" style, apparently), and printed, flat on the dial.

How would either of those look on a pale blue dial, without the contrast the stainless index frames put between their white lume and the blue dial? I think not very good.

As others have said, when we show a new design, it's final. In this case, it's already in production, and my hope is that will be our modus operandi from now on.

Whatever designs I have in mind for the future, I don't like to discuss them until we're ready to reveal them, or not too much in advance of being ready to reveal them, at the earliest.

So, if I were likely to make a pale-blue Nacken, I wouldn't talk about it here and now.

Instead of asking about specific changes or combos we might or might not make, I'd rather people just decide to buy or not buy what we've got available. Asking if we'd ever change this or change that just opens up a bottomless can of worms, one I'd rather keep shut.

Unfortunately, I can't deliver that level of customization to everyone, so we have to focus our efforts on coming up with the designs we feel confident in, the "high percentage plays".


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I was thinking about a response to this^ when I read this:


Eh, you're a, and probably the, foremost contributor in this scene; NTH is frequently included in discussions of the best micro brands; the subs line has become an iconic micro offering; and I imagine you sell a lot more subs a lot more easily than anything else you guys have ever created. So I'd just keep doing what you're doing, which I have no doubt is your plan.

If you want to challenge something like Seaforth reverence, and further distance the subs line from homage comments, maybe find a way that makes business sense to further distinguish the case in small ways (e.g., twist the lugs like an Omega case or something), add a few different bezel options, and allow folks to mix and match parts. Besides very well designed components, and overall design, I still sense that part of the lust Jason tapped into is many affordable WISs' love of personalization/modification, in light of our hesitation to plop down cash on more than one or two variants of the same basic watch.

Oh, and I tend to compare and contrast the subs and Seaforth because the Seaforth and NTH both have threads of epic length relative to any other micro offerings that I've noticed, and owners who are often talked about in personal terms. Whether these similarities correspond to higher sales relative to other micros, I have no idea.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> ... I wish folks could let go of their biases...


Sorry. Pride is now a virtue, and we'll defend our biases to the death.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Eh, you're a, and probably the, foremost contributor in this scene; NTH is frequently included in discussions of the best micro brands; the subs line has become an iconic micro offering; and I imagine you sell a lot more subs a lot more easily than anything else you guys have ever created. So I'd just keep doing what you're doing, which I have no doubt is your plan.
> 
> If you want to challenge something like Seaforth reverence, and further distance the subs line from homage comments, maybe find a way that makes business sense to further distinguish the case in small ways (e.g., twist the lugs like an Omega case or something), add a few different bezel options, and allow folks to mix and match parts. Besides very well designed components, and overall design, I still sense that part of the lust Jason tapped into is many affordable WISs' love of personalization/modification, in light of our hesitation to plop down cash on more than one or two variants of the same basic watch.


1. I have a new model in mind, one which I think might be "our" Seaforth - an interesting and original design which might have the widespread appeal to rival the Subs as a model which "anchors" the brand's product range and could perhaps be considered "iconic" in a micro-brand sort of way.

2. To give Jason his due, he's been at this twice as long as I have, launched his brand before there was a Kickstarter or "crowdfunding" was even a thing, it doesn't appear that he's ever had much of a Facebook presence, and seems to have built his brand and its rabid following the old-fashioned way - solid designs, solid product, great service, hand-to-hand combat in the trenches of this and other forums, etc. My hat is and will remain off to him.

But also, part of the reverence so many of his models get is due to the low production volume. When there are only 100 of a thing, versus 500, and you have 2000-3000 guys who want one, it creates a bit of a mystique, sort of like what Bill Yao has built for MKII. It's not a knock in any way, just an observation, which somewhat ties into what I was saying recently about putting some energy into not over-producing anything. I'd rather have too few of something produced than too many.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

docvail said:


> 1. I have a new model in mind, one which I think might be "our" Seaforth - an interesting and original design which might have the widespread appeal to rival the Subs as a model which "anchors" the brand's product range and could perhaps be considered "iconic" in a micro-brand sort of way.


This is really exciting news. I picked up a Barracuda (blue) and have a Devilray (Devilfox). Also have a Spectre II. I know lots of guys collect the subs and have many of them. But I'm a one of each model kind of guy. And have lots of divers that are similar size to the subs. My point is as much as I'm a fan of the NTH subs, I'll only have one in the collection at any given time. The idea of a new model (like the Devilray - something different than the subs) is awesome... Hope it is near the top of the pipeline!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Welp, he ain't been around much lately, but JohnnyBaldJunior just swooped to scoop the Amphion Vintage Black, which makes me all out of Amphions.

Weird to think we started the whole NTH Subs thing thinking about the various iterations of the Rolex MilSubs, and now I don't own any.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Change is the only constant.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Change is the only constant.


Not quite. The Nacken Modern Black will be a constant in my rotation 

Doc Savage


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Not quite. The Nacken Modern Black will be a constant in my rotation
> 
> Doc Savage


Famous last words . . . I think I've probably felt that way about half of the 20 or so new acquisitions I eventually flipped over the past 2 years 

Case in point: the sub that got me into the line was the Vintage Black Amphion, and I was oh-so smitten with it upon receipt, and I felt it would be my primary daily wearer, and it was. Except that lately I've been thinking more and more as I see it sitting in the box increasingly unworn, "I don't know if I really like X about it, or I kind of feel "meh" about Y. Maybe I should flip it for the upcoming Z?" Nothing with that watch has changed--the inner WIS has just been slowing doing that thing it does to have produced the reality where I've bought and sold 20 or so watches over the past 2 years!


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Famous last words . . . I think I've probably felt that way about half of the 20 or so new acquisitions I eventually flipped over the past 2 years


LOL time will tell!

Doc Savage


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> 1. I have a new model in mind, one which I think might be "our" Seaforth - an interesting and original design which might have the widespread appeal to rival the Subs as a model which "anchors" the brand's product range and could perhaps be considered "iconic" in a micro-brand sort of way.


Interesting. Given what you've said in the past re: bezel materials, I would assume this would continue with a steel bezel, right? I'd hope you would consider the glossy/ceramic look for this one, in part to differentiate it more from the Subs, and in part because that would make me more likely to buy it.


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Interesting. Given what you've said in the past re: bezel materials, I would assume this would continue with a steel bezel, right? I'd hope you would consider the glossy/ceramic look for this one, in part to differentiate it more from the Subs, and in part because that would make me more likely to buy it.


I'd also think it would be interesting if some sort of matte finish was used on the bezel. 
The first time I saw a pelagos in person I was totally blown away by how dead flat it looks and wondered why there were so few watches out there that go that direction (like the only one I've seen that seems sort of close is the squale 1521m's)

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

So, the Näcken Renegade. I like a LOT of things about it.

First off, the dial surface and details are nicely done once again. Brushed texture, coated with a fum'e lacquer, nice thick lume application, and a very nicely bevelled date cutout.









Moreover, the metallic dial works with the metallic hands, the metallic bezel and the metallic case. The whole watch looks like a contiguous, singular whole, with no plastic in sight. The lume and printing is crisp, stark white, which works perfectly with the sharp blacks of the bezel and the dial gloss.

The hand length is perfectly matched to the dial applications. Hour hand just reaches the inside of the big indices. The square on the seconds hand, the bottom aligns with the inside of big indices, the top aligns with the inside of the small indices. The tip of seconds hand goes just out to the end of the minute marks. The minute hand goes into the triangle tip just as it reaches the minute marks. Clever alignment through and through.

















And of course, the sub case wears very well on the wrist. Again - all metal, lots of shiney details... the watch looks pretty expensive  I'm very happy with the renegade dial in particular.









- - - Updated - - -

So, the Näcken Renegade. I like a LOT of things about it.

First off, the dial surface and details are nicely done once again. Brushed texture, coated with a fum'e lacquer, nice thick lume application, and a very nicely bevelled date cutout.









Moreover, the metallic dial works with the metallic hands, the metallic bezel and the metallic case. The whole watch looks like a contiguous, singular whole, with no plastic in sight. The lume and printing is crisp, stark white, which works perfectly with the sharp blacks of the bezel and the dial gloss.

The hand length is perfectly matched to the dial applications. Hour hand just reaches the inside of the big indices. The square on the seconds hand, the bottom aligns with the inside of big indices, the top aligns with the inside of the small indices. The tip of seconds hand goes just out to the end of the minute marks. The minute hand goes into the triangle tip just as it reaches the minute marks. Clever alignment through and through.

















And of course, the sub case wears very well on the wrist. Again - all metal, lots of shiney details... the watch looks pretty expensive  I'm very happy with the renegade dial in particular.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

WOTD

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

So the fun new thing the forum is doing is instead of double posting two messages, it's double posting within one message! How clever!

- - - Updated - - -

So the fun new thing the forum is doing is instead of double posting two messages, it's double posting within one message! How clever!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Goddamnit. Wth is going on with WUS lately. This double-post in one post is beyond ludicrous.

- - - Updated - - -

Goddamnit. Wth is going on with WUS lately. This double-post in one post is beyond ludicrous.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Wow

Doc Savage


----------



## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> So the fun new thing the forum is doing is instead of double posting two messages, it's double posting within one message! How clever!
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> So the fun new thing the forum is doing is instead of double posting two messages, it's double posting within one message! How clever!


We like to keep things fresh and exciting around here.

Reported to the Tech Team.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



CMSgt Bo said:


> We like to keep things fresh and exciting around here.
> 
> Reported to the Tech Team.


I'm not sure why, but this made me LOL!

Unflappable!

EDIT - Holy crap, it just happened to me, too!

FWIW guys, posts can be edited.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ME: I love steel. Steel is awesome. Steel is the deal!

YOU: Oooohhhh, you know what would be nice? Ceramic! With a glossy finish! Or even matte!


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

docvail said:


> ME: I love steel. Steel is awesome. Steel is the deal!
> 
> YOU: Oooohhhh, you know what would be nice? Ceramic! With a glossy finish! Or even matte!


... so how about a bead blasted steel?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> ME: I love steel. Steel is awesome. Steel is the deal!
> 
> YOU: Oooohhhh, you know what would be nice? Ceramic! With a glossy finish! Or even matte!


Do they make FUMÉ steel?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



skuzapo said:


> ... so how about a bead blasted steel?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Why do you think we make the bezel inserts brushed?

If I made them blasted, what happens when you ding the blasted finish? Because blasted finishes tend to mar pretty easily.

"Uhm...I'll email you to ask you to sell me a new one?"

See, THAT'S why I don't do blasted finishes.

What happens when you drop your watch onto a marble floor, or bang it into a door jamb, and the ceramic insert cracks?

"Uhm...I'll email you to ask for a replacement?"

And what if I don't have one?

Imagine the thread started by the guy who finds out I don't stock unlimited supplies of replacement parts, forever, I'm sold out of the part he wants, and can't make new parts on demand?

"Oh, these damned fly-by-night micros, they sell a product, but they can't support it. That's why I only buy mainstream brands!"

I base my component decisions on what materials work best for the application, long term, taking into consideration real-world concerns like the consequences of damage versus repairability and repair cost.

Brushed finishes are going to wear better than blasted. Steel inserts are virtually indestructible. Ceramic inserts aren't. No company, large or small, stocks unlimited replacement parts forever, or can make a single part on demand when one person "needs" one, at least not "affordably".

Guys, I'm not a jerk or an idiot. My decisions are carefully considered, not intended to prevent you from getting what you want, just intended to prevent me from giving you something which might ultimately disappoint you.

"Well, I've owned lots of ceramic bezels, and never had one crack on me, so the likelihood has to be pretty low."

Really?

https://www.google.com/search?q=cra...8tPcAhUp6IMKHdB7AHMQ_AUICygC&biw=1366&bih=629









Brushed finishes conceal marks better than blasted finishes, and if you damage a brushed finish, it can be re-brushed fairly easily and cheaply, using tools from the hardware store, like scotch-brite pads. Fixing surface scratches on brushed finishes is exponentially easier than fixing a blasted finish.

If you damage a blasted finish, you're screwed. The whole surface needs to be re-blasted.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f16/scuffs-sand-blasted-finish-567571.html

"But I *like* ceramic and blasted finishes!"

Awesome. I like selling a product that's low-risk and going to be low-maintenance. I'll keep making products that I can stand behind and support. You keep buying what you like. Hopefully you'll like what I make, but I'm not making what I can't support.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If anyone ever asks me about ceramic bezel inserts or blasted finishes again, I think I'll just provide some links to past explanations. Probably easier:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post34528306.html#post34528306

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post36481354.html#post36481354

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post37071138.html#post37071138

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post44000295.html#post44000295

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post44008611.html#post44008611

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post44712787.html#post44712787

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post46286457.html#post46286457

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post46288429.html#post46288429

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post46290105.html#post46290105

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-790.html#post46693929


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Amphion Dark Gilt, Amphion Modern, Amphion Vintage, and Commander 300 are all now SOLD!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

You could make a list (even though you don't) of all the arguments you've addressed concerning all the various design issues that have been thrown out there from non-microbrand owners, and then number the various now "standard" Vail wall-o-text answers that explain all the sane lucid sober reasons why it is the way it is, and that way the next time you get the next newbie who starts the Q&A all over again we all can just say the number of the "answer" that fits.

Like "what about ceramic"? And the reply would be "15"!

See how easy that was!?

And the obligatory watch on the wrist money shot!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Amphion Dark Gilt, Amphion Modern, Amphion Vintage, and Commander 300 are all now SOLD!


As well as the engraved Acionna, which is the one I really, REALLY, wanted....


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

What about ceramic dials?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> What about ceramic dials?


37!! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> What about ceramic dials?


On an automatic chronograph with a red bezel. It'd be sweet, Doc. = Seaforth-slayer.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

ck2k01 said:


> On an automatic chronograph with a red bezel. It'd be sweet, Doc. = Seaforth-slayer.


A bronze automatic chronograph with a red bezel ...... the Tropic B slayer (seaforth's father).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> As well as the engraved Acionna, which is the one I really, REALLY, wanted....


Sorry, RatFace is local to me, and had that "dibs" on record a while ago, maybe when he first saw it.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Why do you think we make the bezel inserts brushed?
> 
> If I made them blasted, what happens when you ding the blasted finish? Because blasted finishes tend to mar pretty easily.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your periodic explanations of your thought process. It's nice to understand the practical reasons why certain design decisions get made. It also helps to break some of the long-standing biases we consumers sometimes learn/maintain in this oh-so-conservative industry.

Doc Savage


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> 1. I have a new model in mind, one which I think might be "our" Seaforth - an interesting and original design which might have the widespread appeal to rival the Subs as a model which "anchors" the brand's product range and could perhaps be considered "iconic" in a micro-brand sort of way...


If you do this, I think it would be cool to call it the Seaworth, a la "Ser Davos Seaworth", a major character from Game of Thrones. Aside from the coolness of calling it "Seaworth", which is a name that can stand on its own, even if a person doesn't make the GoT connection, there's the whole Davos, Switzerland association.

Doc Savage


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> What about ceramic dials?


Meh. Why? What's the advantage we're trying to gain?

Someone on FB asked if the $200 Tisell Pilot had "heat-blued" hands, or if they were just coated blue.

Questions like that make all my mental gears seize up.

It's a $200 watch. What difference does it make?

If they were heat-blued, they'd look black in most lights. If they're PVD blued, which would be more likely, they'll actually give better contrast and legibility against a black dial.

What's the benefit? Being able to tell people who don't know and don't care that your watch's hands are legit heat-blued?

In-house movements? Explain it to me like I'm a four year old.

In-house production, like, Seiko or someone owns the machines that makes their watches? How do you know? How can you tell?

Real enamel? How do you really know, since I can get the same look with a high-gloss finish? Who is supposed to be impressed?

Fume dials? C'mon, we were just here. No one in their right mind would reasonably expect that a dial was literally held over a candle flame by a master dial maker and then the dial got put into a $500 diving watch.

I don't sell champagne wishes and caviar dreams. I sell tool watches. I build to that purpose.

"Yer a hard man, Vail." - Ric Capucho

"Hard times don't last, but hard men do." - Army Ranger Eric Mueller

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Talking to some peeps on the internet like...










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I particularly like the fist hole in the wall in the background ^^^^^

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Sorry, RatFace is local to me, and had that "dibs" on record a while ago, maybe when he first saw it.
> 
> Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


Yes I did. I remember the day. November 19, 2017 in D.C. at the Microbrand meetup. I loved it the minute I saw it and said to Doc in a serious tone, "If you sell that I what first crack at it".

Thanks again Doc.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> I particularly like the fist hole in the wall in the background ^^^^^
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


I don't know if the show is available in the UK, but the entire Arrested Development series is available on NetFlix here, and it's pretty hysterical. Highly recommend.

For me, watching it, it's somewhat cathartic, as I readily identify with the character played by Justin Bateman, just trying to keep it together and on an even keel while all sorts of lunacy is perpetrated all around him.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

My point with all the ceramic/in-house/fume/whatever stuff isn't to make anyone feel stupid for asking me about it.

There are lots of things I could do to add cost to the product, things which don't really add value, and might even lower the value. I could justify charging you more by explaining to you that it's got an enamel/ceramic/fume dial and a whatever bezel insert, and maybe, you'd buy it.

Just my own view, but I think doing that would make me more patronizing than explaining why I DON'T do all that.

There's a market for products with needlessly expensive features which add no real utility or value. But, if that's what you're into, why are you here talking to me? Just go buy a Rolex or Omega or Patek or AP or whatever brand has the story you want to tell people.

That's what luxury brands are all about - adding costs for their own sake, displaying horological wizardry of no practical value, and getting you to want it so you can explain to others how awesome it is.

How does that work out in real life? Has anyone ever received a promotion or been made happier by bragging about their ceramic bezel or fume dial?

That's the idealized vision marketing implants in your head like an ear-worm, playing its siren song on an endless loop, telling you a product has the magical ability to transform your world, and you.

Stop it. Just. Stop.

I don't give a $hlt if anyone else likes your watch, and neither should you. I just want YOU to like it.

If you want, tell people it cost you $6,000, not $600, and see how they react. If they react positively to that information, and you feel bad lying to them, send me the remaining $5,400.

It only sounds ridiculous if you believe their reaction would be any different if you ACTUALLY spent $6,000, versus $600.

The vision of other people being impressed by such things exists only in your own mind.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I don't know if the show is available in the UK, but the entire Arrested Development series is available on NetFlix here, and it's pretty hysterical. Highly recommend.
> 
> For me, watching it, it's somewhat cathartic, as I readily identify with the character played by Justin Bateman, just trying to keep it together and on an even keel while all sorts of lunacy is perpetrated all around him.


Appreciate what you are saying there Chris, as an interested spectator, I really don't know how you keep up with it all....... as for T.V. lunacy. I'm about to watch a re-run of Hot Tub Time Machine, the concept alone has me in fits of hysterical chuckling.....

HAGWE.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Amphion Dark Gilt, Amphion Modern, Amphion Vintage, and Commander 300 are all now SOLD!


The c300 is a classic


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Why did you sell your private watches? Or did I miss something? You quitting watches for yourself? Or going upmarket?


Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> Appreciate what you are saying there Chris, as an interested spectator, I really don't know how you keep up with it all....... as for T.V. lunacy. I'm about to watch a re-run of Hot Tub Time Machine, the concept alone has me in fits of hysterical chuckling.....
> 
> HAGWE.
> 
> ...


It's funny you mention it, as I've been thinking about the practical implications of Einstein's theories with regard to time travel recently.

Yes, sometimes I think about really esoteric stuff.

According to Einstein, and more recent theorists, time travel is theoretically possible, albeit not within our current capabilities, and perhaps only possible for sub-atomic particles like tachyons. Anything which could travel faster than the speed of light would theoretically travel backward through time.

There are two basic schools of thought regarding the "what if" scenarios of time travel, and what would happen if we could somehow go back in time ourselves.

One theory proposes that the linear nature of time and the sequence of events is immutable. Even if we could travel back in time to prevent some catastrophe, we wouldn't be able to alter the course of history. Things always play out the same way, at a macro level, just like tossing a rock into a stream only temporarily disrupts it.

It's often a depressing view, as it calls into question the concept of free will versus fate/destiny. How free are our choices if the order of events is cosmically determined? "The Adjustment Bureau" dealt with that concept, inventing a cosmic police force to ensure events play out as they are meant to.

The other theory suggests that history can be changed, creating alternate timelines, like in the Back to the Future films. I think this is where we get the idea of parallel universes, each one a degree removed because we chose to turn right instead of left, or whatever. Schroedinger's cat is both alive and dead, until we open the box and discover which of those universes we occupy, the one where the cat is just alive, or just dead.

I tend to subscribe to the "you already made your choice" school of thought, which tends to ruin a lot of time-travel sci-fi for me, though I thought "Paycheck" dealt with the idea of pre-ordainment versus changed history in an interesting way, suggesting that knowing the future can cause the future, sort of like a modern take on Oedipus and the Oracle of Delphi.

Here's a mind-twister - suppose we did come up with a way to travel great distances through space by way of traveling faster than light. If you left Earth for a distant planet, traveling at faster-than-light speed, you'd be traveling backwards through time as you went, and arriving at that planet before you left Earth.

If you turned around and came right back, would you get here before you left in the first place, and if so, could you run into yourself, and if you did, would that rip a hole in the fabric of space-time, and destroy us all, like in Time Cop?

Ah well, enjoy the movie. I remember it being funny.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Why did you sell your private watches? Or did I miss something? You quitting watches for yourself? Or going upmarket?
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.
> 
> Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post46511405.html#post46511405

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post46511735.html#post46511735

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post46516137.html#post46516137


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Last post (hopefully) on the subject of steel vs ceramic bezel inserts, brushed vs blasted finishes, etc.

I don't think I could ever make the case more convincingly than I did here, a post with pics from actual customers - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post46288429.html#post46288429.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Your reasoning is flawless, Doc.
Still, stupid as I am, I really like understated watches. The allready mentioned Pelagos and Squale 1521 matt gets me excited for that very reason. 
I don't care about nicks, dents, scratches and all of that (except on the crystal). Toolmarks are to be expected on a tool. My only worry with a watch is loosing it (and to some extent breaking it). Thats why it doesn't make sense to pay thousands of dollars for a tool watch. 
I'm probably not the typical WIS, so your choices are probably the best for your business and most of your customers, and those choices have brought us some great watches. I just wish there were more to choose from out there, for the few of us that like good quality understated stuff that you actually can afford to break or loose. 

And by the way, your flow chart is wrong. You should never buy a watch in the first place. Especially if you like it. It's a recepy for addiction. 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> Your reasoning is flawless, Doc.
> Still, stupid as I am, I really like understated watches. The allready mentioned Pelagos and Squale 1521 matt gets me excited for that very reason.
> I don't care about nicks, dents, scratches and all of that (except on the crystal). Toolmarks are to be expected on a tool. My only worry with a watch is loosing it (and to some extent breaking it). Thats why it doesn't make sense to pay thousands of dollars for a tool watch.
> I'm probably not the typical WIS, so your choices are probably the best for your business and most of your customers, and those choices have brought us some great watches. I just wish there were more to choose from out there, for the few of us that like good quality understated stuff that you actually can afford to break or loose.
> ...


I hope everyone understands I don't enjoy disappointing anyone. I'm also frequently disappointed with the necessity of some of my own decisions.

Without wanting to get into a long explanation or debate with anyone about it, during my recent visit to HK, my guys there showed me some new enamel bezel inserts they whipped up, which look amazing, and are essentially a current update to the old-style bakelite bezels.

I love the way they look, and asked if I could have one of the samples. They agreed, and I took a box-cutter to it - easily scratched.

Much like sapphire inserts, if you had to replace one of these, you can't just replace the insert. You'd have to replace the entire bezel assembly, an operation which includes the risk of damaging the case, and will absolutely be at a higher cost than replacing a metal insert, which can be done (carefully) without removing the underlying assembly from the case, making it a much lower-risk operation.

I haven't definitely ruled out using them, but...I have to think about the likely future scenario of someone demanding to know why I sold them a watch with an easily scratched bezel insert, and then have the gall to charge $50 (make up a number, whatever it is, someone will complain) for a replacement, which I don't even want to install, for fear the person will claim we damaged their watch while it was in our possession.

My point is - I think about this stuff. I literally cannot accurately predict how many replacements of any part I'll ever need. I have to do my best to guestimate. I don't want to disappoint anyone by not being able to facilitate a repair any more than I want to disappoint anyone looking for a ceramic bezel. I don't want to read threads started by guys complaining that they didn't like my response when they emailed me for support on a 2-year old watch they bought used.

If I make a steel bezel, you can choose whether or not you want to buy it. I'm telling you, it's the material I feel good selling you, and yes, me feeling good about what I sell is important to me. I feel good because I feel like I'm doing the right thing for you, my customer.

If I make a ceramic bezel, and you buy it, you don't get to choose whether or not it'll chip or shatter when you knock it into something, nor do you get to choose when that will happen, or if I'll have a replacement insert for you, and what that will cost to buy, and what it will cost to ship it to you, and to have it installed, etc. The more replacement parts I have to stock, the more I have to charge you for the watches.

And yes, it is a bit like poking the bear, for people to ask me about it every other week, but not because I'm a grump. It's because I care about my customers' happiness, and it really feels like I'm set up to fail when someone asks me about it.

I read what people say about me.

"Don't ask that guy anything, he'll go off on a rant!"

Really? You can't hear my tone of voice. That's in your head. I get the same questions all the time, and I give every person who asks a considered reply.

Pretend you're me. Answer this question effectively and persuasively in a single line of text, one which doesn't sound defensive, bombastic or dismissive in any way, and provides logically sound support for your decision, one made with the best of intents, not for cost-cutting reasons or out of any other negative trait, and doesn't invite follow-on questions or argument:

"Why don't you use ceramic bezels, instead of steel?"


----------



## Dynamite Kid19 (May 19, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I'm glad u let us see behind the curtain. I was debating backing a watch with an enamel bezel but was concerned about durability and couldn't find any comments anywhere with an opinion on them. I do love ceramic (Don't hit me!) but your reasoning for not using them makes a lot of sense.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> It's funny you mention it, as I've been thinking about the practical implications of Einstein's theories with regard to time travel recently.
> 
> Yes, sometimes I think about really esoteric stuff.
> 
> ...


Puff puff pass bro!!

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

DevilRay day.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I got more room on my skin for a NTH.. Just say the word.... Maybe we can get you 1 and we can be Tat bro's?









Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

I've not watched an entire series, but this reminded me of the Chicken Dance montage on YouTube that I have seen, and just watched again.

"Chickens don't CLAP"!

Arrested Development now added to favourites lol

And meanwhile in an alternative universe, I'm sitting back admiring my titanium NTH sub ?



docvail said:


> I don't know if the show is available in the UK, but the entire Arrested Development series is available on NetFlix here, and it's pretty hysterical. Highly recommend.
> 
> For me, watching it, it's somewhat cathartic, as I readily identify with the character played by Justin Bateman, just trying to keep it together and on an even keel while all sorts of lunacy is perpetrated all around him.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> If anyone ever asks me about ceramic bezel inserts or blasted finishes again, I think I'll just provide some links to past explanations. Probably easier:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post34528306.html#post34528306
> 
> ...


Should just put them in your signature.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I got more room on my skin for a NTH.. Just say the word.... Maybe we can get you 1 and we can be Tat bro's?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's fun when you graduate from the "all of my tattoos are super deep" phase, and occupy the phase of "WIS BSH tattoo? Ya cool, let's go with that this week."


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

ck2k01 said:


> It's cool when you graduate from the "all of my tattoos are super deep" phase, and occupy the phase of "WIS BSH tattoo? Ya cool, let's go with that this week."


Thanks brah!

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> ME: I love steel. Steel is awesome. Steel is the deal!
> 
> YOU: Oooohhhh, you know what would be nice? Ceramic! With a glossy finish! Or even matte!


Er.... I meant ceramic *look* steel. Which you said was possible using steel if you felt like doing that way. The brushed look bezel on my Nacken was perfectly fine, but I think I would've preferred a glossy look, all other things being equal.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Dynamite Kid19 said:


> I'm glad u let us see behind the curtain. I was debating backing a watch with an enamel dial but was concerned about durability and couldn't find any comments anywhere with an opinion on them. I do love ceramic (Don't hit me!) but your reasoning for not using them makes a lot of sense.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Well now hold on. Doc's comments on avoiding ceramic due to durability make sense for bezels/cases/bracelets - anything exposed - but it doesn't affect dials at all.

If you manage to shatter a ceramic *dial* in your steel watch, then you done something very wrong and probably effed up the movement and other parts too. Durability should not factor when talking about dials.

You know what should? a) how it looks, b) what it costs.

Here's the thing - okay, maybe an actual enamel / ceramic dial is not *that* much better than a nicely lacquered/gloss-finished regular type dial. Can it really be *that* much more expensive, though?

I mean... Doc's NTH Subs are doing the right thing - they have pretty fancy dial finishes as is (vintage grain, steel brush, lume-soup, sunburst). But why do so many micros (and big brands) default to using the same, frankly crappy-looking matte black dials?

That's where this question of "ceramic dial" comes from, in part. I'm tired of seeing "black" dials that are flat and gray and dull and boring. If it's sold as "black", give me inky dark pit-of-the-abyss proper black! Idk if it takes lacquer or ceramic or whatever to do so - I just wanna know WHY so few brands are able to do this. Is proper black really that much harder than the (relatively common) sunburst?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Er.... I meant ceramic *look* steel. Which you said was possible using steel if you felt like doing that way. The brushed look bezel on my Nacken was perfectly fine, but I think I would've preferred a glossy look, all other things being equal.


I said "ceramic *look* steel???

When did I say that? I don't think I did, because that's not something I'd say, because it makes no sense.

I vaguely recall some discussion about being able to get the same finishes on steel that you can get on ceramic, but that's not "making steel look ceramic", that's just being able to get different finishes on different materials. We can finish either ceramic or steel with a glossy/polished, brushed, or matte/blasted finish. None of those finishes is "native" to either of those materials, so "ceramic" does NOT equal "glossy", if that's what you meant.

If we want, we can go back and look, but honestly, I don't feel like it. I'm pretty sure I've been consistent on this topic. If you or anyone else asked me about the finish, I'd have explained why I do brushed, because it's the best choice between brushed, blasted, and polished.

If people want to bring it up every week, they can, but my answer isn't going to change.

People think they want all sorts of stuff, but trust me, they don't. If I made the insert polished, it would look like hell, and while it is "possible" to finish it that way, it's not possible to finish it that way *AND* lume the bezel markers. Polishing it would ruin the lume filling in the indices.

Again, I didn't flip a coin and say, "heads, we polish, tails, we brush", I *THOUGHT* about it, and made a decision. It was the right one, and I'm not changing it on request, no matter how many times I'm asked.

Y'all say it with me now. What sorts of bezel inserts do I do?

Steel.

Brushed.

You can have any sort of insert you want from me, so long as it's steel and it's brushed.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Well now hold on. Doc's comments on avoiding ceramic due to durability make sense for bezels/cases/bracelets - anything exposed - but it doesn't affect dials at all.
> 
> If you manage to shatter a ceramic *dial* in your steel watch, then you done something very wrong and probably effed up the movement and other parts too. Durability should not factor when talking about dials.
> 
> ...


Maybe?

I'm not sure a true ceramic dial is the best solution if all you want is "deepest, darkest black".

We're making the Carolina project Sub with an enamel-look dial. I've seen a sample my guys produced for another brand, and I'm satisfied it'll be deep/dark enough.

Why don't other companies produce dials like that? I dunno. Have you asked them?

Matte is a choice, so is glossy, or sunray, or whatever.

I don't see the point in a "ceramic" dial because I don't know what you can do with a ceramic dial that you CAN'T do with a metal dial. I don't do meteorite dials because I think they're gimmicky and I'm just not into them. I don't do meteorite bezels because I think it's not a good material for that application.

When we do a matte dial finish, it's because I think that's what the design calls for.

All that said, remember that you're looking at the dial through the crystal, often with a layer of blue-tint AR coating. The trade-off of reducing the glare with AR is a dulling effect on what's seen through it.

There's nothing "wrong" with an enamel dial, at least not functionally. I just don't know why anyone would bother to ask for one if we can do the same thing with a good glossy finish. If we can, and you can't tell the difference, then why pay more for the enamel?

That's all I'm saying here. Ceramic isn't "glossy", it's just ceramic. It can be glossy, brushed, or matte. I can do the same thing with steel. We do brushed, because that's the best choice.

Honestly, it's a tool watch. Why would you want a glossy finish on the bezel? What happens when something scratches the polished finish? Is that not the same damned issue I'd have with the blasted finish? I'd totally do the blasted finish if I didn't know it would be a nightmare to deal with the bezel replacement requests.

I can do a glossy or matte dial. I sometimes choose one versus the other. If you're looking for "glossy", that doesn't require ceramic or enamel, it just requires me to specify a glossy finish for the dial.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> That's all I'm saying here. Ceramic isn't "glossy", it's just ceramic. It can be glossy, brushed, or matte. I can do the same thing with steel. We do brushed, because that's the best choice.
> 
> Honestly, it's a tool watch. Why would you want a glossy finish on the bezel? What happens when something scratches the polished finish? Is that not the same damned issue I'd have with the blasted finish? I'd totally do the blasted finish if I didn't know it would be a nightmare to deal with the bezel replacement requests.


When I think of a ceramic bezel I just tend to think of the glossy look, because that's what the VAST majority of them have. I'm not sure I can even remember seeing a brushed finish ceramic bezel. Matte you do see here and there, but I've never liked the look, I think it looks like a chalkboard. As to why you would want it, on most divers, even tool divers, I think it looks great, and on dress divers it works better than anything else when the watch is worn with a leather strap. Glossy ceramic bezels and sapphire bezels don't scratch.  For me, if it's a question of risk of breaking (relatively low) vs. scratching (relatively high) I'd prefer to risk breaking it. I will also readily admit that I'm not the guy that has to supply the replacement insert/bezel, though I also wouldn't expect to get said replacement for free.

If I scratch my fender, I can't demand a warranty replacement fender from Lincoln. I can put some touch up paint on it, or I can pay for a new one. I was fully prepared to pay for the replacement crystal for my Aevig Huldra for example which had a tiny speck sized scratch when I bought it. It's a very minor cosmetic thing, not something I would expect any warranty to cover. It was incredibly generous of Chip to just send me another one free of charge.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> When I think of a ceramic bezel I just tend to think of the glossy look, because that's what the VAST majority of them have. I'm not sure I can even remember seeing a brushed finish ceramic bezel. Matte you do see here and there, but I've never liked the look, I think it looks like a chalkboard. As to why you would want it, on most divers, even tool divers, I think it looks great, and on dress divers it works better than anything else when the watch is worn with a leather strap. Glossy ceramic bezels and sapphire bezels don't scratch.  For me, if it's a question of risk of breaking (relatively low) vs. scratching (relatively high) I'd prefer to risk breaking it. I will also readily admit that I'm not the guy that has to supply the replacement insert/bezel, though I also wouldn't expect to get said replacement for free.
> 
> If I scratch my fender, I can't demand a warranty replacement fender from Lincoln. I can put some touch up paint on it, or I can pay for a new one. I was fully prepared to pay for the replacement crystal for my Aevig Huldra for example which had a tiny speck sized scratch when I bought it. It's a very minor cosmetic thing, not something I would expect any warranty to cover. It was incredibly generous of Chip to just send me another one free of charge.


Uhm...don't know how to say this without sounding like a smartass, but the Blancpain's bezel isn't ceramic, it's sapphire.

Let me save us both a lot more of this back-and-forth on this topic.

I do steel bezels because steel is a better choice than ceramic. I might do a ceramic bezel someday, but only if I think it's a better application for what we want to do for the design. Until that day, our bezels are steel.

I do brushed finishes on the steel because it's a better choice than glossy or blasted. I don't care what other people think about it. Don't buy it if you don't like it.

If I ever do make a ceramic bezel, I'm brushing it, if it can be done without ruining the lume, because I think that's what looks best. If not, then I'll have to choose between glossy/polished and matte/blasted, and if you need to know which way I'm leaning, it's matte/blasted, because I absolutely freaking hate the glossy look.

I'm not arguing about it any more, with anyone. What's the point?

Please stop asking me. You're never going to like my answer, and it's never going to change.


----------



## Hsvu (Jan 24, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Hate glossy ceramic bezels.
Steel FTW.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nacken Modern Black is now sold, joining all the Amphions and the Commander.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> It's funny you mention it, as I've been thinking about the practical implications of Einstein's theories with regard to time travel recently.
> 
> Yes, sometimes I think about really esoteric stuff.
> 
> ...


Yep,internally debating all of that Space-Time Continuum/Gravity thing can really induce a severe case of brain-pain, best just get a hot-tub..........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Uhm...don't know how to say this without sounding like a smartass, but the Blancpain's bezel isn't ceramic, it's sapphire.


Oh I know, the FF was just an example of a dress diver look that I like. Sapphire and glossy ceramic look fairly similar, if not necessarily identical, and both have basically the same upsides and downsides. Evant for example is clearly referencing Blancpain bezels without using glass.

Different bezel question. One of the things I liked most about my now departed Zodiac Sea Wolf is that the brushed steel bezel (as far as I'm aware) didn't have an insert, the bezel was just one solid piece. Have you guys ever done anything like that? Could you do something like that?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Did somebody mention C300?

Methinks a good call for Sunday morning............









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The DLC brushed steel bezel on the Subs looks plenty good. It's a nice "black is black is black" and has a reasonable ability to show slight reflectivity/shading. I could quibble with the blue-green color oiliness chosen in the blue amphions/tiburon, on personal aesthetic notes, but the black dlc brushed steel option is completely fine, fwiw.

If ya want shinies on the bezel, polish the bezel teeth. Leave the inserts as-is. The talk about polished ceramics reminds me of the steinhart ceramic bezels, which are so glossy that they are completely illegible half the time, and all printing just disappears. That ain't no good.

I guess sapphire doesn't change over time; some of the new bezels with acrylic/plastic "bakelite style" inserts tend to go yellow after a year or two. Iirc it was even mentioned in a recent thread somewhere on f71 that a swiss dive watch (hamilton? davosa? don't recall, one of those brands) started yellowing, fast.

Nah. Gimme steel all over, make it mostly brushed with smart polished accents for visual interest, gimme a *nice* dial and a sapphire crystal, and that'll do. For me, this below is honestly perfect - there's nothing that I can quibble with.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...If not, then I'll have to choose between glossy/polished and matte/blasted, and if you need to know which way I'm leaning, it's matte/blasted, because I absolutely freaking hate the glossy look.


Yeahaa!

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Dynamite Kid19 (May 19, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Well now hold on. Doc's comments on avoiding ceramic due to durability make sense for bezels/cases/bracelets - anything exposed - but it doesn't affect dials at all.
> 
> If you manage to shatter a ceramic *dial* in your steel watch, then you done something very wrong and probably effed up the movement and other parts too. Durability should not factor when talking about dials.
> 
> ...


My bad, I meant bezel. Omega uses ceramic dials, I believe a Watch Time review complained about how shiny it was in bright light and made it difficult to read.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I have a box load of old pocket watches with fired enameled dials. Looks and chips like ceramic.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## RLextherobot (Jan 10, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> What happens when you drop your watch onto a marble floor, or bang it into a door jamb, and the ceramic insert cracks?
> 
> "Uhm...I'll email you to ask for a replacement?"
> 
> ...


Case in point: I sold a diver by a well known microbrand when a fellow owner couldn't get a replacement ceramic bezel for one he cracked. I just didn't feel secure owning it anymore.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Oh I know, the FF was just an example of a dress diver look that I like. Sapphire and glossy ceramic look fairly similar, if not necessarily identical, and both have basically the same upsides and downsides. Evant for example is clearly referencing Blancpain bezels without using glass.
> 
> Different bezel question. One of the things I liked most about my now departed Zodiac Sea Wolf is that the brushed steel bezel (as far as I'm aware) didn't have an insert, the bezel was just one solid piece. Have you guys ever done anything like that? Could you do something like that?


Have we?

No.

Could we?

Yes.

Will we?

Probably not.

Why not?

Please, I so don't feel like getting into it. My answer is "probably not", and let's leave it at that.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> If ya want shinies on the bezel, polish the bezel teeth. Leave the inserts as-is. The talk about polished ceramics reminds me of the steinhart ceramic bezels, which are so glossy that they are completely illegible half the time, and all printing just disappears. That ain't no good.


That's mainly a Steinhart problem, for whatever reason they print the markers on their bezels instead of engraving them like everyone else. Cheaper to do I imagine, but of course far less legible. The glossy ceramic bezels from Rolex, Omega, Oris, Chris Ward, etc etc etc don't have that problem and are readable at all angles under any kind of lighting conditions. It's just one look that I tend to prefer, but obviously it's not for everyone which is fine.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> That's mainly a Steinhart problem, for whatever reason *they print the markers on their bezels instead of engraving them like everyone else.* Cheaper to do I imagine, but of course far less legible. The glossy ceramic bezels from Rolex, Omega, Oris, Chris Ward, etc etc etc don't have that problem and are readable at all angles under any kind of lighting conditions. It's just one look that I tend to prefer, but obviously it's not for everyone which is fine.


Please stop. You don't know that, and in fact you're incorrect.

Unless you're certain what you're saying is true, it's a bit defamatory.

I'm looking at a lume shot of a Steinhart ceramic bezel. It's fully lumed. That can NOT be done without engraving, full stop.

I'm certain they're not printing the markers on the bezel. They're engraving them.

Please, I'm begging you, let this topic go. It's pointless. I'm not making anything with a ceramic bezel insert, so the entire debate here is off-topic and disruptive. You're beating a dead horse now.

If you guys want to debate ceramic vs steel, or whatever, please take it somewhere else.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Please stop. You don't know that, and in fact you're incorrect.
> 
> Unless you're certain what you're saying is true, it's a bit defamatory.
> 
> ...


See, my method would be so much easier!! Number all of your standard answers and then just quote those!

6, 29, 18 and 4!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Someone did take me up on it. MikeyT camped out on my digital doorstep and pounced on me as I was on my way to Facebook, demanding first crack at my Amphion Dark Gilt, which he now owns.
> 
> I'm doing a big sell off, I just haven't had time to create the listings on f29.
> 
> ...


Amphions, Näcken Modern, Santa Fe and Commander 300 all gone now.

Get 'em while they're hot, people!

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also... parenting skillz for the win...










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Please stop. You don't know that, and in fact you're incorrect.
> 
> Unless you're certain what you're saying is true, it's a bit defamatory.
> 
> ...


The ones that aren't lumed, as far as I'm aware, are printed. "Numbers on my ceramic GMT rubbed off. Was very disappointed." Engraved markers do not rub off.

"The bezel numbers are painted onto the ceramic. So the ceramic was never scratched, but the numbers from the 9 o'clock position, through to the 12 o'clock position gradually wore off. "


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> You can have any sort of insert you want from me, so long as it's steel and it's brushed.


'nuff said, Henry. Sounds good.

Doc Savage


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> When I think of a ceramic bezel I just tend to think of the glossy look, because that's what the VAST majority of them have. I'm not sure I can even remember seeing a brushed finish ceramic bezel. Matte you do see here and there, but I've never liked the look, I think it looks like a chalkboard. As to why you would want it, on most divers, even tool divers, I think it looks great, and on dress divers it works better than anything else when the watch is worn with a leather strap. Glossy ceramic bezels and sapphire bezels don't scratch.  For me, if it's a question of risk of breaking (relatively low) vs. scratching (relatively high) I'd prefer to risk breaking it. I will also readily admit that I'm not the guy that has to supply the replacement insert/bezel, though I also wouldn't expect to get said replacement for free.
> 
> If I scratch my fender, I can't demand a warranty replacement fender from Lincoln. I can put some touch up paint on it, or I can pay for a new one. I was fully prepared to pay for the replacement crystal for my Aevig Huldra for example which had a tiny speck sized scratch when I bought it. It's a very minor cosmetic thing, not something I would expect any warranty to cover. It was incredibly generous of Chip to just send me another one free of charge.


I have one ceramic watches and as was said it has all types of finishes on it


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Did somebody mention C300?
> 
> Methinks a good call for Sunday morning............
> 
> ...


One of my faves


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

What this thread needs is less ceramic/steel discussion and more pictures.

I'm still waiting to see more Nacken Renegade pictures myself. Heck, how about the rara avis the Tiburon?

- - - Updated - - -

What this thread needs is less ceramic/steel discussion and more pictures.

I'm still waiting to see more Nacken Renegade pictures myself. Heck, how about the rara avis the Tiburon?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > Someone did take me up on it. MikeyT camped out on my digital doorstep and pounced on me as I was on my way to Facebook, demanding first crack at my Amphion Dark Gilt, which he now owns.
> ...


Orthos Red/Gray withdrawn.


----------



## RCar58 (Mar 27, 2018)

docvail said:


> Orthos Red/Gray withdrawn.


Doc, kudos on the great job that you do. I too am a fan of the 9015, absolutely love it. But I'm really curious as to your thoughts on the STP engine in the Devil Ray. 
Also, a refreshing break from "bezel mania", lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> The ones that aren't lumed, as far as I'm aware, are printed. "Numbers on my ceramic GMT rubbed off. Was very disappointed." Engraved markers do not rub off.
> 
> "The bezel numbers are painted onto the ceramic. So the ceramic was never scratched, but the numbers from the 9 o'clock position, through to the 12 o'clock position gradually wore off. "


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Look at that bezel, isn't it beautiful?


----------



## Hsvu (Jan 24, 2018)

But can we get a bezel made of unobtainium?
Coz steel is so feudal ya know


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Heh. "Feudal". That's a great descriptor. I agree that the NTH subs are righteously feudal and totally tubular. Maaa-aaan.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Ok...I have a bezel option that hasn’t been discussed yet....

A rotating tachymetre!

Instead of timing ascents while diving, why not measure the rate of ascent.

You could also determine how much time you have left in the oxygen tank given actual utilization. 

Think of the possibilities....steel, aluminum, sapphire.....lumed / non-lumed!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Why not take the next derivative, and measure the acceleration of the ascent rate? Sort of like a pressure-dependent gee-force measure for diving.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Hsvu said:


> But can we get a bezel made of unobtainium?
> Coz steel is so feudal ya know


Adamantium all the way.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I am surprised no-one has suggested bronze again!? 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Scratch and sniff bezels.....

BOOM! :-!

Yer Welcome.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RCar58 said:


> Doc, kudos on the great job that you do. I too am a fan of the 9015, absolutely love it. But I'm really curious as to your thoughts on the STP engine in the Devil Ray.
> Also, a refreshing break from "bezel mania", lol
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk


The STP's are okay. Some pros, some cons.

Hard to argue with their value proposition on paper: priced under an ETA 2824-2 standard or Sellita SW200; higher PR than the 2824-2 or SW200, even higher than the 9015; adjusted to 5 positions (compared to 2 for standard grade 2824-2, 3 for elaborated, and 5 for top-grade, or 4 for the 9015), Incabloc shock protection (sames as 2824-2 top grade); Nivaflex NM hairspring (sames as 2824-2 top grade), beautifully decorated (if you care or can see it through a display back)...all pros.

Cons - for the manufacturer, we have to deal with a higher defect rate. The rate I've seen with the 9015 is 0.1%-3%. I'm told the expected rate with the 2824-2 is 5%-6%. With the STP's, it's hard to say, but I think we're probably around 10%. It's hard to say exactly what the defect rate is because of how it presents itself.

Compare to the 9015 - when you replace 1 movement in 500-1000 pieces, or 3 in 100, it's easy to calculate the defect rate. But when you start seeing higher defect rates, it's harder, because you don't know how many your factory is fixing or replacing during assembly and their QC, before they send them to you. Then we fix/replace some in our QC, then we get some back from customers. You can get a batch with a 1% rate and another batch with a 30% rate. We found 8 with problems in 10 replacements we asked for.

So, as best as I can calculate, I think the rate we've seen with the STP in 650 pieces is ~10%, though that may be low, since I don't know what my factory saw, except that they said it was "high", which just means anything higher than 1%.

What does that mean to customers? Nothing, really, so long as you're buying from a seller who has the ability and willingness to support you post-sale, in the event you find your movement seems to have a problem, and especially not if the seller does good QC. Not everyone does enough QC or has the same ability or willingness to provide support.

Ideally, customers shouldn't need to know the defect rate in the movements, because the manufacturer or seller will provide support no matter what it is.

We didn't know the full extent of the problem when we shipped 300 of the Antilles and Azores. When we saw a higher return for repair rate, we ordered extra movements, and prepared to do a lot more testing on the DevilRay during QC.

For the DevilRay, we were more cautious. We talked to watchmakers to define an acceptable range of readings on the timegrapher, gave those ranges to our factory, asked the factory to use them during their testing, and actually test in all 6 positions, not just the 5 specified in the STP's spec sheet.

Then, when we got them here, we tested them all again, thoroughly, in all 6 positions, and repaired/replaced any which looked suspect.

During our QC, I gave my watchmaker something like 50 pieces which seemed suspect. Of those, I think only 25-30 actually needed help, and the rest were fine. He got them all sorted before we shipped. Since then, I think we've only had 1 or 2 pieces with a movement problem come back from a customer.

They're "Swiss Made", but I think there's ample evidence to understand that they're at least partly Chinese, which is why we see the higher defect rate.

We did an experiment. After using Japanese movements in 2500 watches, we made 650 with a "Swiss" movement. My opinion is "meh, they're okay". If I wanted to use another Swiss movement, I'd probably just use an ETA, assuming we could even get them whenever that might happen.

If the defect rate was lower, I'd say the bang-for-the-buck makes the STP as good a value proposition as the 9015, especially if parts suppliers would begin stocking replacement movements, so that people could buy movements to drop in rather than have them serviced. But with the higher defect rate, and without seeing parts suppliers stock them (yet), I prefer the 9015, and think its value proposition is unmatched.

I've left the door open for my opinion to change. I know other micros are still using them. I want to see how they fare over the next couple years, and compare notes with my peers. I told my factory we wouldn't use them again until we saw some improvements, but if we saw them, we might use them again.

I've shared my experience with a bunch of my peers. If they're prepared to support a model with a different movement, then they should likewise be prepared to support a model with the STP. Preparation to provide post-sale support shouldn't be movement-dependent. I have a watchmaker, a parts account with a parts supplier, and a source for movements, if we need them. We're prepared for anything.

Regardless, being prepared doesn't mean I'm ambivalent. Ideally, we wouldn't need to deal with many returns for repair, so I prefer to use movements with lower defect rates, like the Japanese movements.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...If the defect rate was lower, I'd say the bang-for-the-buck makes the STP as good a value proposition as the 9015, especially if parts suppliers would begin stocking replacement movements, so that people could buy movements to drop in rather than have them serviced. But with the higher defect rate, and without seeing parts suppliers stock them (yet), I prefer the 9015, and think its value proposition is unmatched...


Doc, thanks for the detailed explanation once again. Your experience with these movements as a manufacturer, along with my time with my Nacken, has made me a true believer in the 9015.

Doc Savage


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Good response. This bit caught my eye tho:



docvail said:


> You can get a batch with a 1% rate and another batch with a 30% rate. We found 8 with problems in 10 replacements we asked for.


Might be that the factory-repair consisted of:

- Take out 10 movements;
- Give them a good kick in the side, soviet-repair style;
- Put 'em back in;
- That'll do, pig;
- profit!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Good response. This bit caught my eye tho:
> 
> Might be that the factory-repair consisted of:
> 
> ...


I should have been more clear.

We made 300 of the Tropics. I typically request something like 1% extras on all components, but with movements, experience has shown me it's always good to have more spares, so we might ask for 3%, and I might ask for more if circumstances are such that we think we'll need them.

I forget what I asked for with the Tropics, but whatever it was, we blew through the spares quickly.

I reported all our findings in detail to STP directly, as I was raising hell. They asked me to send them back some of the defective movements, which we did, five of them, which was all we had complete. We had others we were using as parts donors.

I asked them to replace the five I sent with ten, explaining my reasoning. Essentially, I said, "you clowns screwed me, here I am helping you with these detailed reports from my watchmaker, and we're still not out of the woods, so make good with some more spares, and unscrew whatever's going on in your supply chain, before I burn you with every brand owner I know."

They sent me 10 replacements, and 8 had issues. We got them sorted, but it wasn't confidence-inspiring.

Understand, by the time we started to see the defect rate in the Tropics, we were already committed to using STP in the DevilRay. By the time we REALLY saw the whole picture, we were in production with it, if you're wondering why we'd go back to them after what happened with the Tropics.

For the DevilRay, we ordered a boatload of extras, so we were and are good, in fact better than good, for the foreseeable future, and I don't expect we'll need to get further support from them.

For now, I'm not concerned. I was very concerned when we blew through all our spares, and they sent me a box with 80% problems. But we got everything sorted, we've got plenty of spares, and so far it appears that we were able to catch and fix the vast majority of issues before we shipped the DevilRay.

Basically, we turned a frown upside down.

PS - Please, nobody email me to ask if I'll sell a movement. I won't. I'm in the watch business, not the parts business.

You can buy a movement, for $700. It comes wrapped in a DevilRay.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Ah, okay. That clears it up.

Guess this goes to show that it's a good idea for any brand - even a micro - to have a watchmaker-type-person on hand.


----------



## Solace (Jun 3, 2018)

Okay, got some lume questions. The Nazario Sauro- blue lumed dial? 

Nacken modern and renegade = blue lume, and the rest green?


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Näkky R-gade is blü lüm throughout (bezel, hands & hourmarkers). I guess BGW-9 or smth similar, since it's a stark clean white in daylight.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Ah, okay. That clears it up.
> 
> Guess this goes to show that it's a good idea for any brand - even a micro - to have a watchmaker-type-person on hand.


It definitely does, and while I won't throw any specific brand under the bus, I know for a fact many micros do NOT have ready access to a competent watchmaker who'll work fast and charge the micro commercial rates.

To be fair, I didn't have any watchmaker at all when I started, and didn't until after we'd produced our first 3 models, and as a result, our ability to provide really good post-sale support wasn't where it currently is.

UVALaw will attest to our past inability to perform an eyelash-ectomy in under 3 months.

Even after that, the first local watchmaker I had wasn't very good, the second wasn't very convenient, the third wasn't very accommodating, the fourth turned out to not be all that reliable, and the fifth was not "my" watchmaker, but rather Fred Amos of Bernhardt's watchmaker, which was an emergency stop-gap measure I took while I figured out my next move, and another reason why Fred is one of my heroes in this business.

Seriously, if anyone ever says anything bad about Fred, they should be hit in the head with a brick.

So far, sixth watchmaker is the charm. He works fast, works cheap, is very conscientious, and can literally fix anything, from a Chinese chrono to a warped bezel. He's fixed stuff I know other watchmakers would have given up on, so I feel very confident when I say, for the time being and the foreseeable future, we're good.

For me, the current situation is as close as I've gotten to ideal - my guy isn't around the corner, but he's within a 25-minute drive, which is pretty local.

For others without anyone local, they should do what I've done for the benefit of my non-US customers - find and establish a relationship with a competent shop in a location and designate that shop your go-to for repairs in that region.

We have a shop in the UK, and they're working out great for UK/EU customers. I have Sujain to help Aussie customers (and I likewise will help out his US customers for him), and we can manage most other repairs well enough through a combination of regional resources of a more informal nature.

There are back-office-by-contract shops in the USA. There's no reason why a micro should be unable to provide reasonably competent / reasonably swift post-sale support when needed. They may not be able to do it as well as we do, but they need to be able to do it well enough.



Solace said:


> Okay, got some lume questions.
> 
> The Nazario Sauro- blue lumed dial?
> 
> ...


Yes,

yes,

and you ain't seen the rest yet, but when you do, lume shot pics = lume colors, and please don't ask me to tell you what color you see, because monitor calibrations, human eyes, computer programs, Rusty, and stuff.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Damn dem aliens..........


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

That's ok, I found the international standard reference for the greens. Authoritative source.


----------



## tbs7777 (Jan 29, 2008)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Doc, thanks for sharing your experience with the STP, very interesting. Can the STP in the DevilRay be replaced with an ETA 2824-2 if one needs a new movement?

- - - Updated - - -

Doc, thanks for sharing your experience with the STP, very interesting. Can the STP in the DevilRay be replaced with an ETA 2824-2 if one needs a new movement?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



tbs7777 said:


> Doc, thanks for sharing your experience with the STP, very interesting. Can the STP in the DevilRay be replaced with an ETA 2824-2 if one needs a new movement?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Doc, thanks for sharing your experience with the STP, very interesting. Can the STP in the DevilRay be replaced with an ETA 2824-2 if one needs a new movement?


The STP 1-11 is a clone movement of the eta 2824-2 so swapping shouldn't be a concern. But as Doc has alluded earlier and elsewhere that the STP is actually a little better finished as a standard and it has the extra jewel. So to contemplate a swap to an eta I would look at an Elabore Top Grade to get the equivalent finish and upgrades that come on the standard finish STP. If you want the extra jewel go with the Sellita in a top grade finish. That's just my observation.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Someone on FB asked if the $200 Tisell Pilot had "heat-blued" hands, or if they were just coated blue.
> 
> Questions like that make all my mental gears seize up.
> 
> ...


Customers want all of these things for the exact same reason they want mechanical movements that cost way more than quartz while at the same time being far less accurate.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



tbs7777 said:


> Doc, thanks for sharing your experience with the STP, very interesting. Can the STP in the DevilRay be replaced with an ETA 2824-2 if one needs a new movement?


An ETA will fit. They're clones, but for a difference of two parts - a lighter spring in the STP (which gives it a longer power reserve), and an extra jewel, rather than a bushing, on top of the barrel which houses that spring. But for those two parts, the movements are part-for-part clones.

As Rhory said, on paper, the STP equates, more or less, to a top-grade 2824-2, but the grades don't impact the ability to swap one in place of another.

The issue I alluded to is replacement cost.

My wholesale cost on the STP is between the 9015 and the ETA. If you can get a single unit of either movement online, you'll likely pay around $90 for the 9015, and twice that for the standard-grade ETA. I haven't seen any parts houses stock the STP yet, which sucks, because I figure if they did stock them, they'd charge less.

All that said, unless and until STP can dramatically lower their defect rate, it may be just as well. Once a parts house sends out a movement, I don't think they warranty them, unless the buyer is a watchmaker they know as trustworthy. They can't guarantee a movement they ship won't turn out to be a dud, which is probably why they don't typically stock Chinese movements. I can only imagine the hassle involved there.

It all presents an interesting dilemma for the future. When your STP is due for servicing, do you:

A.) Wait, and let the movement chew itself up, then drop in an ETA or Chinese clone as a replacement when the movement completely dies?
B.) Pay a watchmaker $200-$300 to service it like an ETA, or ask them to just get a new ETA and drop it in, assuming that would be less costly?

Tell me again what's wrong with Japanese movements that seem to run forever without needing service every 5-7 years? I'm sure I'm just missing the obvious reasons people prefer muh Swiss.



Avo said:


> Customers want all of these things for the exact same reason they want mechanical movements that cost way more than quartz while at the same time being far less accurate.


Erm...not quite.

I prefer mechanical watches because they have the benefit of not needing battery replacements, ever. I also think they're cool, in a watch-geeky sort of way, but that's purely about my own enjoyment. I'm not going around telling people "this watch has a mechanical movement, so you should be impressed with it, and by extension, me."

There's a functional advantage there - no trips to the mall for a battery change. I don't see a functional advantage in heat-blued hands in a black-dialed watch.

Likewise, I don't see any advantage in having an "in-house" movement, if that means it can't be serviced by your neighborhood watchmaker, and instead needs to be returned to the mother-ship for service or repair.

None of which is to deny or argue the point that quartz movements are functionally superior. No doubt they are, and if we could get a solar-powered quartz movement with a smooth-sweeping seconds hand, I might be persuaded to change my preferences.

But as long as quartz movements need batteries and solars tick at one-beat-per-second, I'm just not interested, and it's got nothing to do with any mental baggage I'm carrying around, related to what other people think about my watch.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> An ETA will fit. They're clones, but for a difference of two parts - a lighter spring in the STP (which gives it a longer power reserve), and an extra jewel, rather than a bushing, on top of the barrel which houses that spring. But for those two parts, the movements are part-for-part clones.
> 
> As Rhory said, on paper, the STP equates, more or less, to a top-grade 2824-2, but the grades don't impact the ability to swap one in place of another.
> 
> ...


This WUS 'bug' is going to make your next wall of text even more impressive than usual...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



winstoda said:


> This WUS 'bug' is going to make your next wall of text even more impressive than usual...


Seriously. They should just call this bug "the Equalizer", because it turns all posts into walls of text.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Seriously. They should just call this bug "the Equalizer", because it turns all posts into walls of text.


"Amplifier".

The word is amplifier. A small, badly thought through post gathers a WOT response. That's amplification, that is.

Yer welcome.

Ric


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Idk... A battery change once in 5-10 years, or a movement change / service once in 5-10 years.. Imo in that exchange, the quartz still seems to come out on top.

The "one tick per second" issue remains, but... let's be honest, that is naught more than mental baggage that we all carry. There's nothing fundamentally better or worse if a hand moves once per second, or if it moves thrice / four times per second. Both hands still stutter a bit, both may or may not land on markers, and neither is truly smooth or continuous. And, heck - one second is one of the basic singular time units. Shouldn't a watch measure those?

But, still, mental baggage exists. As you say, if there was a solar quartz with smooth sweep seconds hand, I'd also be all over it.

- - - Updated - - -

Idk... A battery change once in 5-10 years, or a movement change / service once in 5-10 years.. Imo in that exchange, the quartz still seems to come out on top.

The "one tick per second" issue remains, but... let's be honest, that is naught more than mental baggage that we all carry. There's nothing fundamentally better or worse if a hand moves once per second, or if it moves thrice / four times per second. Both hands still stutter a bit, both may or may not land on markers, and neither is truly smooth or continuous. And, heck - one second is one of the basic singular time units. Shouldn't a watch measure those?

But, still, mental baggage exists. As you say, if there was a solar quartz with smooth sweep seconds hand, I'd also be all over it.

- - - Updated - - -

Idk... A battery change once in 5-10 years, or a movement change / service once in 5-10 years.. Imo in that exchange, the quartz still seems to come out on top.

The "one tick per second" issue remains, but... let's be honest, that is naught more than mental baggage that we all carry. There's nothing fundamentally better or worse if a hand moves once per second, or if it moves thrice / four times per second. Both hands still stutter a bit, both may or may not land on markers, and neither is truly smooth or continuous. And, heck - one second is one of the basic singular time units. Shouldn't a watch measure those?

But, still, mental baggage exists. As you say, if there was a solar quartz with smooth sweep seconds hand, I'd also be all over it.

- - - Updated - - -

Idk... A battery change once in 5-10 years, or a movement change / service once in 5-10 years.. Imo in that exchange, the quartz still seems to come out on top.

The "one tick per second" issue remains, but... let's be honest, that is naught more than mental baggage that we all carry. There's nothing fundamentally better or worse if a hand moves once per second, or if it moves thrice / four times per second. Both hands still stutter a bit, both may or may not land on markers, and neither is truly smooth or continuous. And, heck - one second is one of the basic singular time units. Shouldn't a watch measure those?

But, still, mental baggage exists. As you say, if there was a solar quartz with smooth sweep seconds hand, I'd also be all over it.

- - - Updated - - -

Idk... A battery change once in 5-10 years, or a movement change / service once in 5-10 years.. Imo in that exchange, the quartz still seems to come out on top.

The "one tick per second" issue remains, but... let's be honest, that is naught more than mental baggage that we all carry. There's nothing fundamentally better or worse if a hand moves once per second, or if it moves thrice / four times per second. Both hands still stutter a bit, both may or may not land on markers, and neither is truly smooth or continuous. And, heck - one second is one of the basic singular time units. Shouldn't a watch measure those?

But, still, mental baggage exists. As you say, if there was a solar quartz with smooth sweep seconds hand, I'd also be all over it.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I prefer mechanical watches because they have the benefit of not needing battery replacements, ever.


I have a 13-year-old Eco-Drive, still going strong with zero maintenance. Citizen says that, after 20 years of continuous running, the rechargeable battery should still be at 80% of original capacity. I'd definitely bet on an Eco-Drive outlasting any mechanical in daily use for 10+ years.

And if the battery does ever fail, I can buy a new one for $14 and install it myself in a few minutes.

I like and collect mechanical watches, but not because they're better or need less maintenance than the best of modern quartz technology.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> But as long as quartz movements need batteries and solars tick at one-beat-per-second, I'm just not interested, and it's got nothing to do with any mental baggage I'm carrying around, related to what other people think about my watch.


I feel the exact same way. I started the journey with quartz, and I'm done with it. A watch that keeps running for a few years and then dies whether I'm wearing it or not has no soul, and I can't stand the look of dead beat seconds. I like the "wrist machine" thing that needs me to power it. I sometimes wonder if somebody made a quartz movement like the Bulova precisionist that has a sweep comparable to the spring drive in smoothness that could run on a solar capacitor, whether I'd buy a watch with it. I guess it would depend on the watch, but I'm leaning towards no.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Idk... A battery change once in 5-10 years, or a movement change / service once in 5-10 years.. Imo in that exchange, the quartz still seems to come out on top.
> 
> The "one tick per second" issue remains, but... let's be honest, that is naught more than mental baggage that we all carry. There's nothing fundamentally better or worse if a hand moves once per second, or if it moves thrice / four times per second. Both hands still stutter a bit, both may or may not land on markers, and neither is truly smooth or continuous. And, heck - one second is one of the basic singular time units. Shouldn't a watch measure those?
> 
> ...


Oh man, the forum software fixed the double post issue, but now we have quadruple posts within a post?!? I am not sure that's any better.
I never thought I would say it, but give us back double posts lol.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Idk... A battery change once in 5-10 years, or a movement change / service once in 5-10 years.. Imo in that exchange, the quartz still seems to come out on top.


5 years is a pretty short interval for a mechanical. Some very exotic Swiss movements maybe, but most are 7+ years, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Seikos and Miyotas were going fine at 15+ years without being touched. No mechanical will need service after 2-3 years like some quartz watches do.

Dead beat seconds are a subjective thing. I think it looks awful, it just screams cheap shopping mall quartz watch even if I see it in a quartz Omega. It doesn't bother some folks, which is fine. But I don't think "shouldn't a watch measure seconds" is a justification for the main weakness of quartz - it can't sweep like even a 21.6K BPH mechanical unless it's a HF movement, and those are definitely not 10 year battery watches.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Avo said:


> I have a 13-year-old Eco-Drive, still going strong with zero maintenance. Citizen says that, after 20 years of continuous running, the rechargeable battery should still be at 80% of original capacity. I'd definitely bet on an Eco-Drive outlasting any mechanical in daily use for 10+ years.
> 
> And if the battery does ever fail, I can buy a new one for $14 and install it myself in a few minutes.
> 
> I like and collect mechanical watches, but not because they're better or need less maintenance than the best of modern quartz technology.


I know it's anecdotal, but my BY0044-77E had lost more than 20% of its capacity when I sold it, and it definitely was nowhere near 20 years old. The power reserve indicator wouldn't move past the 75% mark on the dial, and in the dark it would be dead after maybe 3 weeks, compared to the like 6 months of one with a fresh solar capacitor. So those things DO go much earlier than that. Maybe I just had a bad one in mine, but it does happen.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> A watch that keeps running for a few years and then dies whether I'm wearing it or not has no soul


:roll:


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Ideally, we wouldn't need to deal with many returns for repair, so I prefer to use movements with lower defect rates, like the Japanese movements.


So the 9015 is cheaper, more reliable and IIRC a tiny bit thinner? As for cons, it is "not Swiss"? I couldn't care less.  (Wearing a Vratislavia Pan-Africa powered by 9015 right now - seems perfectly fine.)


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



nuru said:


> So the 9015 is cheaper, more reliable and IIRC a tiny bit thinner?


Yup.

Potential justifiable downsides that people sometimes remark upon are... free-spinning rotor in one direction (depending on case or smth, this can get audible - never been a problem for me in subs though), and...

that's pretty much it. 9015 is a great movement. Idk about 20+ yrs, but so far we haven't seen many reports of age-related issues. Idk, but I'd guess watchmakers might have some thoughts on the 90xx series too. Dunno how easy it is to get parts/spares for.


----------



## Noro (Jun 16, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

IMO the argument against batteries doesn't make much sense.

It's $10 and 10 minutes at any jeweler in the world, 2 or 3 times a decade, or _once_ a decade with some (or never with solar). You can get it done while your wife is looking at capri pants at Chicos and your kids are at Jamba Juice, then you all head over to Panda Express for lunch. That's it. It's a non-issue. Oh, you're worried it will die right in the middle of the home stretch of your Dakar Rally course in Tunisia? Just get it changed preemptively, then it won't "die" on you. There are people who actually rely on battery powered watches professionally (almost exclusively in fact) and we don't hear about too many lost souls at the bottom of the sea cuz that damned battery died. The entire Scurfa crew wears them and they still aren't dead. The rest of us who are - at most - worried about our dentist appointment can manage too, then.

Here is a logical point against mechanical watches: A mechanical watch needs both external electricity _and_ physical motion. If you don't keep it moving it dies in two days. Then, you need a reference point to set the time (external electricity). You must have both of those things just to keep a poor timekeeping device alive. And you need to do it over and over and over again.

True story- Recently my power went out, and the emergency generator (elevator etc) conveniently died not long after. My phone happened to be dead. My Mech watches were dead as I've been home sick not wearing them. I live 400 feet in the air and can't, say, pop out to my car to check its clock unless I wanted to descend and ascend 400 feet of stairs in the dark. I needed to know the time as I had plans. Then I remembered my Citizen, happily ticking away not needing external electricity nor physical motion to run for years on end. It was the only reliable timekeeper because it didn't need multiple forms of outside intervention to keep time for more than 48 hours. Autonomous timekeeping via a self contained energy source is truly a great thing.

I like mechanicals because it's a little tiny ingenious analogue machine on my wrist. But it sure as hell ain't "less maintenance"- you are maintaining it just keep it from dying every two days, and to _tell *it*_ what time it is.

What I don't understand is why many can't just say "I like mechanicals" and just leave off the weak arguments. There is no need for justification at all, you can just like them. I do!


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I would looove an option for quartz NTH sub without a bracelet if it could be in $250-300 range. It would justify getting different configurations easier for me.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmyeah.

I just went on an hourlong refresher of quartz watch options.
The big problem is:

there just ain't that many (any) quartz watches that:
- are finished to a high degree of quality (e.g. subs level)
- sport one of the fancier quartz movements (multi-jewelled, goldplated, thermocompensated, or *at least* more than $20 retail...)
- aren't chronos.

The range of options is, still, astonishingly low. Especially in the "f71" pricerange sweet spots of "above $250, below $750" - obvious ripoffs excluded, ofc. (*)

But I also get thatfor brands like NTH, the business case for, e.g. a quartz Sub, just doesn't exist. NTH aims at, well, WIS-type customers, and statistically WIS don't do quartz.


*- If someone has any good ideas, please let me know.


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> *- If someone has any good ideas, please let me know.











'Nuff said 😉


----------



## Noro (Jun 16, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> I just went on an hourlong refresher of quartz watch options.
> The big problem is:
> 
> there just ain't that many (any) quartz watches that:
> - are finished to a high degree of quality (e.g. subs level)


I agree with this, it's a struggle to find equivalent quartz options. The irony is that the reason for this situation - the lack of a wide selection and variation of good looking and feeling options - is that the stigma of "crappy quartz watch" has become a self fulfilling prophecy. Meaning, because of that perception, brands aren't creating intriguing quartz watches because they fear no one will buy them at the price they need to sell them at. There are people right now who balk at quality $500 automatic watches, and if those people think quartz is crappy then, well, good luck.

It makes me want to create some quality quartz watches, but I too worry if they can sell. The WIS is fickle, and the normie doesn't see the reason to pay $400 for a micro quartz when a Citizen is $200.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ian_61 said:


> 'Nuff said ��


Nope. Integrated lugs = auto-reject. This also tosses out a lot of otherwise neat citizen satellite-wave watches.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Quartz can be cool!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I would looove an option for quartz NTH sub without a bracelet if it could be in $250-300 range. It would justify getting different configurations easier for me.


Idk if that would be possible. We're talking about a pricecut of $300ish, whereas the movement price difference (9015 vs. an ok-ish eta/rondaquartz) is more like $70. I don't think the bracelet makes up for the remaining $230.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

My automatic watches say "Hi" :-!

My quartz watches just stare at me in a very judgemental way :-(


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Noro said:


> IMO the argument against batteries doesn't make much sense.
> 
> It's $10 and 10 minutes at any jeweler in the world, 2 or 3 times a decade, or _once_ a decade with some (or never with solar). You can get it done while your wife is looking at capri pants at Chicos and your kids are at Jamba Juice, then you all head over to Panda Express for lunch. That's it. It's a non-issue. Oh, you're worried it will die right in the middle of the home stretch of your Dakar Rally course in Tunisia? Just get it changed preemptively, then it won't "die" on you. There are people who actually rely on battery powered watches professionally (almost exclusively in fact) and we don't hear about too many lost souls at the bottom of the sea cuz that damned battery died. The entire Scurfa crew wears them and they still aren't dead. The rest of us who are - at most - worried about our dentist appointment can manage too, then.
> 
> ...


A Toyota Corolla is likely to last longer with little to no maintenance than just about any other car. If you need to move yourself from point A to point B without walking, and you want to spend as little as humanly possible keeping your car running, I don't think there's a better choice. It's also so boring that it makes you want to kill yourself. Quartz watches are Corollas. Functional time pieces. Appliances, just like the famous rolling refrigerator.

Also, solar watches do not have infinite lifespans. They work as long as the capacitor can hold a charge. If I stopped wearing my Citizen Attesa chrono for a couple of weeks it would die, and I couldn't Seiko shuffle it for 5 seconds and get it going. It had to sit under the desk lamp for _several hours_ to start running again.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Well, that's part of the problem.

"quartz" vs "automatic" isn't a "Toyota" vs. "Laborghini" comparison. It's quite literally "electric" vs "diesel/petrol".

WHY are quartz watches built with usually boring feature sets, boring designs, and cheap-arse quality/finishing? That's what makes them boring!

Edit:

This is post # 8000 in this thread. Yay.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Noro said:


> IMO the argument against batteries doesn't make much sense.
> 
> It's $10 and 10 minutes at any jeweler in the world, 2 or 3 times a decade, or _once_ a decade with some (or never with solar). You can get it done while your wife is looking at capri pants at Chicos and your kids are at Jamba Juice, then you all head over to Panda Express for lunch. That's it. It's a non-issue. Oh, you're worried it will die right in the middle of the home stretch of your Dakar Rally course in Tunisia? Just get it changed preemptively, then it won't "die" on you. There are people who actually rely on battery powered watches professionally (almost exclusively in fact) and we don't hear about too many lost souls at the bottom of the sea cuz that damned battery died. The entire Scurfa crew wears them and they still aren't dead. The rest of us who are - at most - worried about our dentist appointment can manage too, then.
> 
> ...


You don't know my personal story.

I got the idea to start this business when the battery in my watch died. It was LESS than ONE YEAR old.

SOME batteries last a few years. Some DON'T.

When I had to get batteries replaced, it wasn't uncommon to pay $25 each for the battery and installation. Going to get batteries installed is a pain in my balls that I can do without, thanks to mechanical watches, and, if someone screws the job up, they can potentially fry the module, killing the watch.

"Pffffft! That never happens!"

No? Ask Fred Amos from Bernhardt how many quartz modules he keeps on hand to replace fried modules due to botched battery changes. Don't tell me it doesn't happen. It does.

So, let me see here...

OPTION A - Quartz watches. Batteries will die eventually, and watch will be useless until battery is replaced. Happens every few years in most cases. Requires inconvenient battery change, which brings with it the risk of frying the module and not maintaining water resistance. Dead-beat seconds. Extremely accurate.

OPTION B - Mechanical watches. No batteries. If the movement is Japanese, likely no service needed for decades. Sweep seconds. More accurate than I need.

Uhm...that's a pretty easy choice for me, and it makes a lot of sense.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Idk.. I don't think it's that hard to swap out the battery at home - if you can swap straps and bracelets without messing anything up, battery in/out ain't that much worse.

The thing is.. remember the "_mahswiss_" thing you've been railing against? That there's no actual sound reason for putting swiss movements as better than some good alternatives?

Well.. isn't the "_mah mechanical_" thing pretty much the same? Especially when we do have decent quartz movements available with long lasting power sources, sometimes solar charging options. And that don't need constant rejiggering every few days to correct for the time drift, or out-of-power resetting.

And what was it about water resistance... don't most brands recommend to regularly check the WR and replace deteriorating seals as needed? (okay, probably overkill.. but come on, swapping a $2 o-ring on caseback during the battery change is dead simple). And with quartz, you're not gonna wear out the crown seal and threads so fast as with HW/auto movements.

Fundamentally.. why do people here actually want mechanical movements?

*Because mechanical movements are more expensive and 'elite'.* That's why people end up making justifications like "mechanicals have soul".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Idk.. I don't think it's that hard to swap out the battery at home - if you can swap straps and bracelets without messing anything up, battery in/out ain't that much worse.
> 
> The thing is.. remember the "_mahswiss_" thing you've been railing against? That there's no actual sound reason for putting swiss movements as better than some good alternatives?
> 
> ...


No, to all of it, but really, I so don't care, and don't need to get sucked into another pointless debate.

I gave a hypothetical that would get me onboard with quartz - solar-powered, long-lasting (like, forever, or at least, decades), and high-beat. If you gave me that, I'd be on board.

But, as far as I know, that doesn't exist.

Whatever point you, Avo, and whoever else are trying to "prove", fine, I give up, you proved the hell out of it. You can stop proving it now.

I haven't changed my mind, it isn't likely to change, and don't know how to get you to change yours, if the fact that I don't feel like dealing with battery changes, and haven't had to in years, isn't enough to make my point.

Let's please just agree to disagree. I'll keep liking mechanicals, you all can go on thinking it's because of imaginary benefits, analogous to whatever, and that I'm being logically inconsistent.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

With regards to quartz vs mechanicals, whats the point of proving anything?
The benefit of each is mostly subjective. 

I'm a noob WIS, so 1-2 years ago when I started looking for a replacement for my old (quartz) watch I didn't really care for mechanical watches. I wanted accuracy, robustness and convenience. I won't bore you with all of that, but after some research I warmed up to the charm of mechanicals, and decided I might get one in addition to a new quartz, just to feed my curiosity. Bad decision.
I used to consider myself an accuracy freak, but the charm of mechanicals got to me.
It's just that. A fascination with how it works.
I do like quartz for their practicality, versatility and accuracy. I'm an electronics engineer, and don't feel uncomfortable changing batteries myself. And the ones that can take a beating are so affordable, that I don't even worry about the watch not being waterproof after I put it together. No self serviced quartz has failed me yet.

The fact that I've become so found of mechanicals just means quartz get less wrist time, even though I believe they are superior in most aspects.
I do however think there is a real downside to quartz, but currently it's only a theoretical one, and it would not really affect one watch people, which would probably leave out most non WIS watch owners. This problem relates to leaking batteries. I have a gazillion electronic gadgets that's powered by some type of battery, and I often experience that ones that I haven't used in a while experience leaking batteries. Sometimes a good cleanup is all it takes to get that gadget back in service, but sometimes it's game over. I don't want to remove the batteries from my quartz watches while they sit in the box as that would ruin the grab and go convenience, but it does bug me that I have all these valuable items laying around with chemical bombs in unknown condition inside.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

With regards to quartz vs mechanicals, whats the point of proving anything?
The benefit of each is mostly subjective. 

I'm a noob WIS, so 1-2 years ago when I started looking for a replacement for my old (quartz) watch I didn't really care for mechanical watches. I wanted accuracy, robustness and convenience. I won't bore you with all of that, but after some research I warmed up to the charm of mechanicals, and decided I might get one in addition to a new quartz, just to feed my curiosity. Bad decision.
I used to consider myself an accuracy freak, but the charm of mechanicals got to me.
It's just that. A fascination with how it works.
I do like quartz for their practicality, versatility and accuracy. I'm an electronics engineer, and don't feel uncomfortable changing batteries myself. And the ones that can take a beating are so affordable, that I don't even worry about the watch not being waterproof after I put it together. No self serviced quartz has failed me yet.

The fact that I've become so found of mechanicals just means quartz get less wrist time, even though I believe they are superior in most aspects.
I do however think there is a real downside to quartz, but currently it's only a theoretical one, and it would not really affect one watch people, which would probably leave out most non WIS watch owners. This problem relates to leaking batteries. I have a gazillion electronic gadgets that's powered by some type of battery, and I often experience that ones that I haven't used in a while experience leaking batteries. Sometimes a good cleanup is all it takes to get that gadget back in service, but sometimes it's game over. I don't want to remove the batteries from my quartz watches while they sit in the box as that would ruin the grab and go convenience, but it does bug me that I have all these valuable items laying around with chemical bombs in unknown condition inside.


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Idk.. I don't think it's that hard to swap out the battery at home - if you can swap straps and bracelets without messing anything up, battery in/out ain't that much worse.
> 
> The thing is.. remember the "_mahswiss_" thing you've been railing against? That there's no actual sound reason for putting swiss movements as better than some good alternatives?
> 
> ...


This seems like a pretty bad argument. I just like mechanicals more. I'll tell you right now I own a bunch of seikos and seiko 5s, and no rolex or PP or any kind of signaller's brand. If I was only into mechanicals because they're more elite, why would I hoard cheap seiko 5s and brands that no non WIS has ever heard of like NTH, rather than have a few Rolex, etc? It doesn't make any sense.

- - - Updated - - -



X2-Elijah said:


> Idk.. I don't think it's that hard to swap out the battery at home - if you can swap straps and bracelets without messing anything up, battery in/out ain't that much worse.
> 
> The thing is.. remember the "_mahswiss_" thing you've been railing against? That there's no actual sound reason for putting swiss movements as better than some good alternatives?
> 
> ...


This seems like a pretty bad argument. I just like mechanicals more. I'll tell you right now I own a bunch of seikos and seiko 5s, and no rolex or PP or any kind of signaller's brand. If I was only into mechanicals because they're more elite, why would I hoard cheap seiko 5s and brands that no non WIS has ever heard of like NTH, rather than have a few Rolex, etc? It doesn't make any sense.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

aicolainen said:


> With regards to quartz vs mechanicals, whats the point of proving anything?
> The benefit of each is mostly subjective.
> 
> I'm a noob WIS, so 1-2 years ago when I started looking for a replacement for my old (quartz) watch I didn't really care for mechanical watches. I wanted accuracy, robustness and convenience. I won't bore you with all of that, but after some research I warmed up to the charm of mechanicals, and decided I might get one in addition to a new quartz, just to feed my curiosity. Bad decision.
> ...





aicolainen said:


> With regards to quartz vs mechanicals, whats the point of proving anything?
> The benefit of each is mostly subjective.
> 
> I'm a noob WIS, so 1-2 years ago when I started looking for a replacement for my old (quartz) watch I didn't really care for mechanical watches. I wanted accuracy, robustness and convenience. I won't bore you with all of that, but after some research I warmed up to the charm of mechanicals, and decided I might get one in addition to a new quartz, just to feed my curiosity. Bad decision.
> ...





mattm0691 said:


> This seems like a pretty bad argument. I just like mechanicals more. I'll tell you right now I own a bunch of seikos and seiko 5s, and no rolex or PP or any kind of signaller's brand. If I was only into mechanicals because they're more elite, why would I hoard cheap seiko 5s and brands that no non WIS has ever heard of like NTH, rather than have a few Rolex, etc? It doesn't make any sense.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> This seems like a pretty bad argument. I just like mechanicals more. I'll tell you right now I own a bunch of seikos and seiko 5s, and no rolex or PP or any kind of signaller's brand. If I was only into mechanicals because they're more elite, why would I hoard cheap seiko 5s and brands that no non WIS has ever heard of like NTH, rather than have a few Rolex, etc? It doesn't make any sense.


This is awesome -- now we get the best of both worlds, double posts AND double-wide posts! #Winning


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmyeah.
> 
> I just went on an hourlong refresher of quartz watch options.
> The big problem is:
> ...


Check out the Longines VHP (HAQ) line.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Off topic,
yesterday I picked up the Hamtun H1 (2018).
I have to admit I'm a little impressed. It was so affordable I didn't even care to use the coupons I had, I really wanted Ross to have all of those 200ish euros for his efforts.
I wouldn't mind a 9015 in there, a wee bit thinner case and C3 X1 lume, a regular clasp with micro adjust and a more masculine contrast color than the shade of blue he uses, but the design, fit and finish appears to be more than enough for a tool watch of this type.
Set the time this morning, and the NH35 is still within 1 second as I write this 7-8 hours later. My first NH35, and finally my first titanium diver. 
I just wanted you to know Doc. I'm good for a while now, no need to rush that NTH titanium watch you secretly been designing for me ;-)


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> I know it's anecdotal, but my BY0044-77E had lost more than 20% of its capacity when I sold it, and it definitely was nowhere near 20 years old. The power reserve indicator wouldn't move past the 75% mark on the dial, and *in the dark it would be dead after maybe 3 weeks*, compared to the like 6 months of one with a fresh solar capacitor. So those things DO go much earlier than that. Maybe I just had a bad one in mine, but it does happen.


Eco-Drives will not work up to spec if you leave them in the dark for significant periods of time. Mine sit in a glass-topped watch case on a dresser, well out of direct sunlight, but this (and the once-a-month or so day on the wrist) is enough to keep them going.

I don't want to hijack this thread into a discussion of solar. My point is that there is no rational reason to prefer mechanicals on any cost / performance / maintenance basis. It's all personal aesthetics and preferences. Which doesn't bother me at all! Buy what you like! Wear what you like!


----------



## Solace (Jun 3, 2018)

Thanks Doc for the lume confirmation. :] 

And on the mechanical vs. quartz - people like what they like. There doesn't really have to be a reason, and/or their reasons can be from personal experiences that don't necessarily make sense to others.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

oh no! endless walls of text...this time quartz vs mechanical!

with no change in position on any side (surprise)

what to do?

i know...throw in some photos. this may distract 'em long enough to dead the topic


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Photos? Ok 

Just got this rubber strap in mail, imo it works really well with the Näkky:









It's a watchgecko "premium italian diver" unscented EPDM rubber.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Decided to part with my BNIB Blue Barracuda. It’s on the sales forum. 

Nothing wrong with it, it’s a gorgeous watch, just bought too many at the same time and need to part with a few. 


“Life is too short, buy all the watches you like”

Follow me on IG @Watchexposure


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Look pic!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Well, that's part of the problem.
> 
> "quartz" vs "automatic" isn't a "Toyota" vs. "Laborghini" comparison. It's quite literally "electric" vs "diesel/petrol".
> 
> ...


It sort of is though. A typical quartz watch is a Corolla, and a high-end quartz watch like a Grand Seiko is a Lexus LS. Very nice car, still boring as hell. Even an incredibly humble, dirt cheap Seiko 5 has some character to it. It's just as much of a machine as any Patek or Vacheron, and works on the exact same principles. Keep wearing it and it'll keep running. You never have to worry about ignoring the skip seconds low battery warning for too long, and having it just be dead one morning when you go to put it on.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> *Because mechanical movements are more expensive and 'elite'.* That's why people end up making justifications like "mechanicals have soul".


The 7S26 is less than the price of a decent steak, and has the refinement of a tractor. It is by no means elite in any sense of the word. It does however have soul, because it has a direct link back to close to 100 years of automatic wrist watches, over 100 years of mechanical wrist watches, and a few hundred more before that of pocket watches. You can buy a Seiko 5 that costs barely more than the price of the movement itself, turn it over, and watch it go to work just like you can with an AP Royal Oak. There's no reason to put a display back on a quartz watch because there's nothing to look at. There's nothing of interest going on in there. It's as exciting as a calculator.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> ... a high-end quartz watch like a Grand Seiko is a Lexus LS. Very nice car, still boring as hell. Even an incredibly humble, dirt cheap Seiko 5 has some character to it.


I seriously have no idea what you're talking about. A seiko 5 has some arcane "character" that a grand seiko doesn't? ... You mean that it breaks more, or..?



Davekaye90 said:


> The 7S26 ... It does however have soul


No, it doesn't. Feel free to go through the spec sheet and show me the part number of component called "Soul". Is it a gear? A pinion? A mainplate? Is it made by Seiko or by a subsidiary company? Or is it liquid and squirted onto the movement during assembly?

I accept that you like mechanical movements. That's cool. I like them too, in fact. I just don't accept this mumbo-jumbo "soul" nonsense. There physically, empirically, and practically is NO soul in an engineered collection of metal parts.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Avo said:


> Eco-Drives will not work up to spec if you leave them in the dark for significant periods of time. Mine sit in a glass-topped watch case on a dresser, well out of direct sunlight, but this (and the once-a-month or so day on the wrist) is enough to keep them going.
> 
> I don't want to hijack this thread into a discussion of solar. My point is that there is no rational reason to prefer mechanicals on any cost / performance / maintenance basis. It's all personal aesthetics and preferences. Which doesn't bother me at all! Buy what you like! Wear what you like!


Same. I had two Eco-drives for awhile at the same time, a World Timer A-T that I bought new, and the Attesa that I bought used. The WT was working properly, it would read 100% charged after a few hours under direct lighting, and then it would keep running for months, even if you put it in a closed drawer. The Attesa, sitting in my glass topped watch case with my other watches, was no longer charging properly. The indirect light it got in the case wasn't enough to keep it topped up, and I could leave it 3" under my desk lamp all day long, and the PR indicator would never move past 75% charged. If I didn't take it out of the case and wear it, after 3 weeks or so it would die and I'd have to charge it again. The capacitor was clearly on its way out.

It did a lot of cool things that no mechanical is capable of doing. It set its own time every night at 2am. There are mechanical perpetual calendars, but they cost a fortune and don't know when DST is. The Citizen did. It also had a Mecaquartz style 5-beat chrono second hand, an alarm, and by changing the city indicator next to the date indicator, it would auto-set to whatever the new timezone was. The finishing was pretty good, comparable to one of Seiko's Brightz models, and it was Titanium so it weighed nothing. Aside from not wanting to deal with getting the capacitor replaced on an imported JDM watch, I sold it because it was boring. I had just gotten an SKX, and that killed any interest in quartz watches, solar or otherwise.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> I seriously have no idea what you're talking about. A seiko 5 has some arcane "character" that a grand seiko doesn't? ... You mean that it breaks more, or..?
> 
> No, it doesn't. Feel free to go through the spec sheet and show me the part number of component called "Soul". Is it a gear? A pinion? A mainplate? Is it made by Seiko or by a subsidiary company? Or is it liquid and squirted onto the movement during assembly?
> 
> I accept that you like mechanical movements. That's cool. I like them too, in fact. I just don't accept this mumbo-jumbo "soul" nonsense. There physically, empirically, and practically is NO soul in an engineered collection of metal parts.


Something like this either speaks to you or it doesn't. To me, this is mechanical artwork. It's interesting for its own sake, and also happens to tell time. A quartz watch is just a tool, like a hammer or a tape measure. There's nothing at all interesting about them. It's the same reason why I like watching ultra high-end turntables play records. They're also mechanical art, massively over engineered to spin their platters as close to 33.33333 RPM as humanly possible. They also happen to play music. A CD player is more accurate than any of them. I also have zero interest in CD players.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Avo said:


> Eco-Drives will not work up to spec if you leave them in the dark for significant periods of time. Mine sit in a glass-topped watch case on a dresser, well out of direct sunlight, but this (and the once-a-month or so day on the wrist) is enough to keep them going.
> 
> I don't want to hijack this thread into a discussion of solar. My point is that there is no rational reason to prefer mechanicals on any cost / performance / maintenance basis. It's all personal aesthetics and preferences. Which doesn't bother me at all! Buy what you like! Wear what you like!


Not wanting to deal with battery replacements, ever, is irrational?

Fair enough.

You win.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Someone set the "Days Since 2 WIS Argued About Watches Having Soul" counter back to 0, please.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, if a request from me carries any value at all, here it is...

This thread isn't supposed to be a catch-all for any/all debatable topics. Ceramic vs steel, quartz vs mechanical, etc - so not the point of this.

I like that this thread is here, as it gives me a dedicated "space" to engage directly with people who are into knowing about whatever it is we're doing/making. I don't mind people asking me why I do what I do or make the decisions I make. And if I get the same questions every other week, fine, I'll answer them. I'm happy to help inform people here, if I can.

But, please, once a topic is raised and the positions stated, let's not continue on to browbeat each other. I've yet to see anyone be persuaded that way.

If you like ceramic, or quartz, or Swiss, or whatever, fine, you're allowed to like all that stuff. I'm not obligated to change my mind about any of it, just as you're not obligated to be persuaded by anything I've said. I'll hear you out, and it would be awesome if you'll hear me out. 

Once we've heard each other out, please, let that be the end of it. It's okay to agree to disagree, in fact it's preferable to the alternative, if the alternative is pages on end of back-and-forth pointless bickering on a topic that's effectively off-topic in this thread.

The fact that someone disagrees with me doesn't change my opinion of that person at all, but if that person can't let it go, and not letting it go turns into a digital slug-fest, I think it lowers people's estimation of the people involved. 

Accept the fact that not everyone will agree with you, and just be okay with it.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Not wanting to deal with battery replacements, ever, is irrational?
> 
> Fair enough.
> 
> You win.


Good! Because I'm right.

An Eco-Drive (that is not left stuffed in a drawer) will easily run 20 years in daily use without any kind of service or battery replacement. Your NTH and L&H mechanicals (like every other mechanical) very likely will not.

So, yes, "not wanting to deal with battery replacements, ever", while dealing with far more frequent (and far more expensive) services on mechanicals, is indeed irrational.

EDIT: I didn't see doc's post that landed one minute before mine. I'm stopping here.


----------



## Solace (Jun 3, 2018)

docvail said:


> Guys, if a request from me carries any value at all, here it is...
> 
> This thread isn't supposed to be a catch-all for any/all debatable topics. Ceramic vs steel, quartz vs mechanical, etc - so not the point of this.
> 
> ...


Voice of reason.

Also, does the Nazario have a white textured dial or matte? I'm in between it, the Nacken renegade, a Seiko, and a Steinhart limited edition for a gift. Please and thank you Doc. :]

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

This thread has become "a forum within a forum." Which is quite fine with me, because it's so civil, even when there's a disagreement. And I need you guys to keep it up, as I'm planning to make my 1000th post on the 100th page...

Watch pic:


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> Guys, if a request from me carries any value at all, here it is...
> 
> ...please, once a topic is raised and the positions stated, let's not continue on to browbeat each other. I've yet to see anyone be persuaded that way...
> 
> Once we've heard each other out, please, let that be the end of it. It's okay to agree to disagree...


WELL SAID.

Doc's statement should be in huge letters on the first page we see every time we log into WUS.

Doc Savage


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Solace said:


> Voice of reason.
> 
> Also, does the Nazario have a white textured dial or matte? I'm in between it, the Nacken renegade, a Seiko, and a Steinhart limited edition for a gift. Please and thank you Doc. :]
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


It's textured, like the Santa Fe.

















From a process standpoint, it's "the same" texture as the vintage versions of Amphion and Nacken, but it seems that coating the dial with lume serves to soften the effect, leading me to dub it "rice paper" rather than "sandpaper".

I like the sandpaper texture on the others, but I LOVE the rice-paper texture with the full-lume.

For whatever reason, I just don't seem to get on with pure-white dials, with very few exceptions, it seems, which is why I just sold my Santa Fe.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

I cannot stop staring at this beauty!


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

JakeJD said:


> This is awesome -- now we get the best of both worlds, double posts AND double-wide posts! #Winning


Eventually, each post will be its own complete thread, dozens of pages long. Welcome to /f2247. Your opinion is duly noted in /f2248!

Back to quartz vs mechanical, I'd like to sum things up:

Each has pluses and minuses, some of which some people care about more than others. Please reply in /f2249!

ETA: This has me listed as post 999, after I broke 1000 yesterday. I'm normally a pretty logical person, but the forum software has me doubting whether this is the correct reality.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

MaxIcon said:


> ...
> ETA: This has me listed as post 999, after I broke 1000 yesterday. I'm normally a pretty logical person, but the forum software has me doubting whether this is the correct reality.


Every reality is the correct one!

Doc Savage


----------



## Solace (Jun 3, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> It's textured, like the Santa Fe.
> 
> View attachment 13371639
> 
> ...


Thank you, I appreciate getting the extra info. :] I'm a huge fan of textured dials.

Probably would think of more to say, but I'm feeling brain dead from 3D printing today.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> I seriously have no idea what you're talking about. A seiko 5 has some arcane "character" that a grand seiko doesn't? ... You mean that it breaks more, or..?
> 
> No, it doesn't. Feel free to go through the spec sheet and show me the part number of component called "Soul". Is it a gear? A pinion? A mainplate? Is it made by Seiko or by a subsidiary company? Or is it liquid and squirted onto the movement during assembly?
> 
> I accept that you like mechanical movements. That's cool. I like them too, in fact. I just don't accept this mumbo-jumbo "soul" nonsense. There physically, empirically, and practically is NO soul in an engineered collection of metal parts.


They don't say hi either! Watches have no souls and they can't talk!!!

I just like cool looking watches, I don't care if the power is in a spring or chemical based, neither is more legit than the other. There's a place for both.

I guess if you only have one watch and it's quartz and and you find it dead one morning, that would be a bummer, having to use your cell for the time that day. But none of us here have one watch. I've never found swapping a battery to be a big deal, so it's hard for me to see someone hating the process so much that they'd not buy a quartz watch.

I can relate more to the romanticism of the moving parts, and how the first watches worked in the same way. But not so much to say a pile of gears and springs is a soul, and exclude quartz completely.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

wow, nice

same sub case? same size?

- - - Updated - - -

wow, nice

same sub case? same size?


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Looks considerably smaller to me &#8230;

But a purple dial! And no minute marks on the bezel!

I might not be able to resist &#8230;


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



KiwiWomble said:


> wow, nice
> 
> same sub case? same size?
> 
> ...


NTH Sub, so, yes.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


>


*Interesting!* I DIG the applied marker design and handset combo, maybe more than any other Sub you guys have done to date. NICELY done there. I'm really curious how the purple dial will do. Gnomon still has some of the purple dialed LE Squale Onda Uvas in stock. The light blue ones both sold out instantly, both runs. So for them at least, the market seems to have spoken.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Mohr pics...

































Both will be available with or without the date at 6, as seen above.

They're NTH Subs, so...everything you know about the Subs is still true.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

We're calling that dial color "magenta".

It's not really "purple", as the images used for the video have the dial somewhat in shadow.

The dial has a color-fade and sunburst. It's going to change colors with the light.

I'm really not into arguing with people about what name we put on a color. For me, I have to define dial colors using Pantone numbers, which can be translated into RGB numbers, so colors become yet another "math problem" for me.

The RGB ("red-green-blue") here goes from 215-31-133 at the center to 106-26-65 at the edge. So, that's a lot of red, not much green, and about half as much blue, all pretty saturated.

Make of that what you will, call it what you like. We'll be calling it "magenta" on the website.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

You should totally do a version of that with a quartz movement and ceramic bezel.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Mohr pics...
> 
> View attachment 13371965
> 
> ...


Links aren't working. The two dial colors aren't quite for me, but if you ever do a black/gilt version, I might have some trouble not hitting the buy button.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

As best as I can figure, the bracelet will be size-able down to 140mm or ~5.5 inches, so should fit most women's wrists, FWIW.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Links aren't working. The two dial colors aren't quite for me, but if you ever do a black/gilt version, I might have some trouble not hitting the buy button.


Images are showing in my browser.

Perhaps try refreshing yours.


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Avo said:


> *Looks considerably smaller to me *&#8230;
> 
> But a purple dial! And no minute marks on the bezel!
> 
> I might not be able to resist &#8230;


yeah, i thought it looked smaller and that would have worked with the idea of a unisex watch so i thought i'd ask...apparently not though


----------



## RCar58 (Mar 27, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> No, to all of it, but really, I so don't care, and don't need to get sucked into another pointless debate.
> 
> I gave a hypothetical that would get me onboard with quartz - solar-powered, long-lasting (like, forever, or at least, decades), and high-beat. If you gave me that, I'd be on board.
> 
> ...


Im almost sorry I asked the 9015 question Doc. No idea it would turn into this. Thank you for your insight tho, I happen to appreciate it. Keep doin what you do....I will keep buying what you build

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Images are showing in my browser.
> 
> Perhaps try refreshing yours.


That did it, cheers. Since you mentioned earlier about when a design stops being an homage and starts becoming "original." to me this seems like the most original Sub to date. Most of the others are obviously pulling from various Rolex or Tudor subs, whereas this one feels more like a tribute to vintage divers in general than any brand/model. It's a really cool design, I hope these do well.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> You should totally do a version of that with a quartz movement and ceramic bezel.


I hate you.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RCar58 said:


> Im almost sorry I asked the 9015 question Doc. No idea it would turn into this. Thank you for your insight tho, I happen to appreciate it. Keep doin what you do....I will keep buying what you build
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk


Honestly, it's rare that I remember who asked what, who said what, and who might have pissed me off.

In my mind, there are only two people in the world - me, and all of you.

You're all basically the same person to me, just with a bazillion different names and faces, but none of them mine. You're all equally Kim Jong Un and Gary Coleman, in my eyes.

Hard to get and stay angry at anyone when you see things that way.

PS/EDIT - I take that back. I'm getting angry at whoever's reposible for the double-post-posts, because that $hlt is gettin' old fast.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Dude, I might buy one just so I can tell people my watch has a pink nipple dial, forget heat blued hands.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skunkworks said:


> Dude, I might buy one just so I can tell people my watch has a pink nipple dial, forget heat blued hands.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


Right?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Also, potential solution for people that like other NTH models but can't get past the Mercedes or snowflakes - buy two, the one you like with the problematic hands, and a Dolphin. Swap handsets. Give the Dolphin to a special lady.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So it seems there really are only two genders?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Incoming. Just ordered. Like the new date placement as a white square over the black hole at 4:30.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Rhorya said:


> Incoming. Just ordered. Like the new date placement as a white square over the black hole at 4:30.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


The Nacken's 6 PM date window is one of the cooler parts of its design. Totally blends in with the hour indices.

Doc Savage


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Yeah. Best integration of a date window in a dial yet. Good thing is that no legibility has been sacrificed - the date window is large, it's got very legible black-on-white numbers, and a nice (not overbearing, but well done) aperture edging. All the 6-o'clock Näcken Dates are grand.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah. Best integration of a date window in a dial yet. Good thing is that no legibility has been sacrificed - the date window is large, it's got very legible black-on-white numbers, and a nice (not overbearing, but well done) aperture edging. All the 6-o'clock Näcken Dates are grand.

- - - Manually Updated - - -

FFS this doublepost-in-a-post bug is THE most annoying thing.


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> View attachment 13372027


Digging a magenta dial. So confused...

[Walks off whistling "Magenta Rain".]


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> The Nacken's 6 PM date window is one of the cooler parts of its design. Totally blends in with the hour indices.
> 
> Doc Savage


Normally, I'm a big fan of white-on-black date wheels. Not at all sure that would be an improvement here.


----------



## nuru (Jan 15, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



nuru said:


> Digging a magenta dial. So confused...


Also, I really appreciate that it has neither Mercedes nor snowflake hands. (Those currently still mark a red line I am unwilling to cross.) But the hands look an ever so little bit too "fat" on the render.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Haven't read the entirety of the quartz thread here,but here is my take.

I now own well over 120 watches. Many of them sit for LONG periods of time. Every single time I go to grab a quartz one, I wonder if it'll need a battery BEFORE I put it on, and it often does. It has nothing to do with money in replacing the battery, or anything to do with the "Prestige" of a mechanical movement. I just want to be able to grab, wind and go. simple. I've never had a dead mechanical yet, but I once brought over 20 watches to the jeweler to replace batteries at once. MosT of them died before i could wear them. Problem solved, most of my quartz watches remain dead, and I wear my mechanicals. If I only had a few watches, different story......simple.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

GlenRoiland said:


> Haven't read the entirety of the quartz thread here,but here is my take...


'nuff said.

Doc Savage


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Still Kraken the Näcken!!










Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Word


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Guys, if you didn't see the thread started by Zundfoldge (aka the Time Bum), the annual "Microbrands Meetup" in DC is now called "District Time", and is set for 30 September.

Yes, I'll be there, with cool stuff to display and a bit of swag. We're an event sponsor, and have taken over the lounge as our designated happy haunting ground.

As it was the past two years, it should be a good time, and I expect it will be the best place to see a lot of cool brands and their products all in one place at one time.

Full details - https://www.dcwatchshow.com/

Pics from last year's show here - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/2017-microbrand-meetup-4541899-post44591811.html#post44591811.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah. Best integration of a date window in a dial yet. Good thing is that no legibility has been sacrificed - the date window is large, it's got very legible black-on-white numbers, and a nice (not overbearing, but well done) aperture edging. All the 6-o'clock Näcken Dates are grand.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Devil Ray today








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Jaybekay (Jul 27, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


>


WHAT A BEAUTIFUL WATCH!

I've been lurking here for a couple of years, bought a few watches, and am really happy with my SKX007 and the couple of others I have

I pop into the local watch shop every once in a while and look at Black Bays and Subs, they're really nice. But I don't like the Mercedes hands of the Sub and the Black Bay is kind of big. I like the smaller size of the sub and snowflake hands have really grown on me.

So what I really want is a root beer Sub with snowflake hands!

That's a great looking watch! Thanks for making those Doc! Now I just need to get my hands on one.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


>


Yeah, I know. But that treats the symptom, not the cause. The annoying part is that this stuff still keeps happening and requires manual intervention in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -



docvail said:


>


Yeah, I know. But that treats the symptom, not the cause. The annoying part is that this stuff still keeps happening and requires manual intervention in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

And I sure as hell don't want to do the manual edits, lest the forums mods/IT-staff decide that all is fine and they can afford to do nothing to fix this damn bug.

- - - Updated - - -

And I sure as hell don't want to do the manual edits, lest the forums mods/IT-staff decide that all is fine and they can afford to do nothing to fix this damn bug.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Well, that's interesting. Successive separate posts get auto-merged into one? Maybe that's the double-post bug cause. (Edit: oh nevermind. apparently not. Itäs all just wonky AF without rhyme or reason).

Anyway. 

The lumedial Nazario. Was it using bgw-9, superluminova C1, or some other mix? Basically... exact same compound as Santa Fe, or something whiter?


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> 'nuff said.
> 
> Doc Savage


Really?


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



GlenRoiland said:


> Really?


Yes. The rest of the quartz thread that you didnt get a chance to read was docvail saying he was really tired of the quartz argument constantly coming up (and that it never actually goes anywhere)
He did say that if they somehow managed to make a quartz movement out of ceramic, hed consider it though. (Joking!!!!)
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Hmmm...
Nacken Vintage White...... :think:

... o|


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Well, that's interesting. Successive separate posts get auto-merged into one? Maybe that's the double-post bug cause. (Edit: oh nevermind. apparently not. Itäs all just wonky AF without rhyme or reason).
> 
> Anyway.
> 
> The lumedial Nazario. Was it using bgw-9, superluminova C1, or some other mix? Basically... exact same compound as Santa Fe, or something whiter?


If it's white-white in the daylight and glows blue, that's BG W9. I doubt we'd ever use C1, but if we did, it would glow green.

The Santa Fe is C3, which glows green, but isn't white-white, more of a very pale yellow.











GlenRoiland said:


> Really?


I think he was agreeing with you, not chiding you.



mplsabdullah said:


> Hmmm...
> Nacken Vintage White...... :think:
> 
> ... o|


Yep.

Also C3, like the Santa Fe, with the same dial texture.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Ooh. Blacked out hands on the Vintage White Näcken. Good call! That one's gonna be very legible.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yep.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Yep.
> 
> View attachment 13374643


Wow!! double-post Wow!!

Hmmm, those black snowflake hands, kinda, sorta, look strangely beguiling.............

Nope, I refuse to believe that I'm starting to like snowflake hands.....

but, then "Black Snow" is such an heretical concept and as a combo with that dial punches your optics out.... Can I live without it???

You have been working that bad-man mantra real hard here Doc Vail, your just twistin' my melon man, twistin' my melon.......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> Wow!! double-post Wow!!
> 
> Hmmm, those black snowflake hands, kinda, sorta, look strangely beguiling.............
> 
> ...


Just sayin'...









Y'all remember that thread 2 years back, with all those guys sayin', "Meh, I don't see how the market needs ANOTHER sub homage. I don't think this will work..."

The next time I get business cards printed, I may just add "Hold my Beer" under my name.

Ugh, I can already hear my Dad...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...let's see, you've now seen the TGV Catalina, the BSHT Carolina, the Holland, the Nazario Sauro, The Dolphins, and the Näcken Vintage White.

We've got more of the Näcken Renegade and Scorpène Blue coming in October, too.

Still two more new Subs designs to show you guys...


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Jaybekay said:


> WHAT A BEAUTIFUL WATCH!
> 
> I've been lurking here for a couple of years, bought a few watches, and am really happy with my SKX007 and the couple of others I have
> 
> ...


https://www.tudorwatch.com/watches/new-black-bay-fifty-eight/m79030n-0001


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I got rid of my Tudor for the simple reason I kept looking for the date. Got tired of having to look elsewhere for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I got rid of my Tudor for the simple reason I kept looking for the date. Got tired of having to look elsewhere for it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


agreed, a little discreet date is a plus for me, key being its so much better when the date wheel matches the face colour


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

double post


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

KiwiWomble said:


> agreed, a little discreet date is a plus for me, key being its so much better when the date wheel matches the face colour


Yup. I'm always impressed when brands go the extra mile there with custom date wheels as opposed to just stock white or black. If they have a correctly oriented 4:30 date, I'm doubly impressed. O&O does a really nice job with theirs.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Ragl said:


> ...
> Hmmm, those black snowflake hands, kinda, sorta, look strangely beguiling.............
> 
> Nope, I refuse to believe that I'm starting to like snowflake hands.....


LOL it's happening! 

Doc Savage


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Can't beat the Seaforth when it comes to matching date wheels...


Davekaye90 said:


> Yup. I'm always impressed when brands go the extra mile there with custom date wheels as opposed to just stock white or black. If they have a correctly oriented 4:30 date, I'm doubly impressed. O&O does a really nice job with theirs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

GlenRoiland said:


> Haven't read the entirety of the quartz thread here,but here is my take.
> 
> I now own well over 120 watches. Many of them sit for LONG periods of time. Every single time I go to grab a quartz one, I wonder if it'll need a battery BEFORE I put it on, and it often does. It has nothing to do with money in replacing the battery, or anything to do with the "Prestige" of a mechanical movement. I just want to be able to grab, wind and go. simple. I've never had a dead mechanical yet, but I once brought over 20 watches to the jeweler to replace batteries at once. MosT of them died before i could wear them. Problem solved, most of my quartz watches remain dead, and I wear my mechanicals. If I only had a few watches, different story......simple.


I did two things to reduce this from happening with my collection 1/2 yours in size.

1. Bought a bunch of batteries in 6-8 of the the most common sizes for $30 online. 10-20% the price of local shops. And bought basic tools to open the backs. So I change my own batteries.

2. I pull out all of the crowns on quartz watches when they aren't being worn, which stops them from draining. Yes, I have to set them if I need to wear one, but that's the same as a mechanical

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



skipwilliams said:


> 2. I pull out all of the crowns on quartz watches when they aren't being worn, which stops them from draining. Yes, I have to set them if I need to wear one, but that's the same as a mechanical
> 
> Skip
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


But isn't the draw of quartz the whole always set and ready to go? I've considered adding one for that reason... but if I had to set the time to put it on I'm back where I started with my mechanicals.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



winstoda said:


> But isn't the draw of quartz the whole always set and ready to go? I've considered adding one for that reason... but if I had to set the time to put it on I'm back where I started with my mechanicals.


Yes, I agree, but it's better than picking up a watch I want to wear and have it be dead. I've grown tired of that game.

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



skipwilliams said:


> Yes, I agree, but it's better than picking up a watch I want to wear and have it be dead. I've grown tired of that game.
> 
> Skip
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Fair enough... can't argue with that... in years past a dead watch battery has ended up with the watch getting lost in a drawer.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

skipwilliams said:


> GlenRoiland said:
> 
> 
> > Haven't read the entirety of the quartz thread here,but here is my take.
> ...


I've been told many times on most of my watches that leaving the crown out potentially exposes the movement to environmental fluctuations, and is generally not a good idea. Still, with the number of watches i own, they could sit for MANY years unworn (I literally have some I haven't worn in multiple years), but when I do get around to them, I know I can just wind them up...

I never discuss the size of my.....collection, but keep in mind when I say well North of, I mean WELL North of........

I have one watch that went unworn for the better part of 15 years. Crown open, the battery corroded and almost ruined a Swiss watch...

I have others unworn for 5-10 years, but eventually I put them on and enjoy them. Wind em up, put them on for a day or so, then back in the box. Doesn't even matter if they are off a minute or so in 24 hours....


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> Yep.
> 
> View attachment 13374643


Winter is coming....


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

docvail said:


> Still two more new Subs designs to show you guys...


Saving the best for last?


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

N00b question(s). I go to the Janis Trading Co website expecting to see some of these reveals, the preorder stuff and etc. But it seems the WUS site is more up-to-date than the official site. So, where is the strongest internet pressence? Facebook?


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RuggerAl said:


> N00b question(s). I go to the Janis Trading Co website expecting to see some of these reveals, the preorder stuff and etc. But it seems the WUS site is more up-to-date than the official site. So, where is the strongest internet pressence? Facebook?


Top source of reveal information is to come to this thread and say "ETA movements are worth it".

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RuggerAl said:


> N00b question(s). I go to the Janis Trading Co website expecting to see some of these reveals, the preorder stuff and etc. But it seems the WUS site is more up-to-date than the official site. So, where is the strongest internet pressence? Facebook?


Sign up for email updates and check IG


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RuggerAl said:


> N00b question(s). I go to the Janis Trading Co website expecting to see some of these reveals, the preorder stuff and etc. But it seems the WUS site is more up-to-date than the official site. So, where is the strongest internet pressence? Facebook?


Follow us on social media - Instagram, Facebook, join our FB group.

Sign up for the email newsletter.

Follow this thread.

I'll always update the website eventually, certainly before I need to, but until I need to, it's not my top priority.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



winstoda said:


> But isn't the draw of quartz the whole always set and ready to go? I've considered adding one for that reason... but if I had to set the time to put it on I'm back where I started with my mechanicals.


I'm not sure why we still have this discussion, but here it goes: 
The draw of quartz is whatever you want it to be. Either you feel the draw or you don't. 
My collection is WELL south of 120 watches, so I have no problem keeping a few quartz watches ready to go. Some are solar powered, the others seem to have battery life of 4 years or better. 
I have no intention of having a large watch collection, but quartz brings something to the table that has value to ME, so there will always be room for at least one in my collection.

As I write this it strikes me that how someone perceive the draw of quartz might be related to lifestyle. 
I'm not much into watches for their attraction and intricate design elements. I'm just into using them. I spend lots of time in the outdoors, hiking, hunting, running, biking, skiing as well as search & rescue training and assignments. In addition I'm a competitive shooter in ISSF and IPSC. I try to find watches that fits into my life, and some of those happen to be quartz.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I like Santa Fe on jubilee!!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Very good fit on that jubilee endlinks. What strap/ends were those?


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



aicolainen said:


> I'm not sure why we still have this discussion, but here it goes:
> ...


It's because people won't let it go.

Doc Savage


----------



## watchgeek96 (Jan 14, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> I like Santa Fe on jubilee!!!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What jubilee is that? I am thinking to put it on my Nacken


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

X2-Elijah said:


> Very good fit on that jubilee endlinks. What strap/ends were those?





watchuseek96 said:


> What jubilee is that? I am thinking to put it on my Nacken


Thanks guys, I got this jubilee from Alixpress. If you search for "Carlywet" you will find a variety of bracelets including the jubilee and some oysters with divers extensions.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I wonder what one would find if you just google that? hahah



Omegafanboy said:


> Thanks guys, I got this jubilee from Alixpress. If you search for "Carlywet" you will find a variety of bracelets including the jubilee and some oysters with divers extensions.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


- - - Updated - - -

I wonder what one would find if you just google that? hahah



Omegafanboy said:


> Thanks guys, I got this jubilee from Alixpress. If you search for "Carlywet" you will find a variety of bracelets including the jubilee and some oysters with divers extensions.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am not even going to attempt to fix this. Sorry y'all for laziness but to be fair. I am at work and should not be here so shhhhhhhh!


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

In San Fran working all week, with just my trusted Vintage Blue Nacken as my companion. Thanks for making a keeper, Doc.

Edit: Forgot to mention, rocking on a navy PhenomeNato, which I'll mod to an RAF when I get back. For now, wearing down-under style.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gotta love this -

__
http://instagr.am/p/BmPm5pon53I/









_What is up with marketing watches as 'for women'!? _

I dunno, the fact that people often like to know who a product is for? What's with ignoring the fact that we said it was a unisex design for men or women?

_When will we (as a community) stop alienating women by relegating alternate designs that use flashy colours, or shiny bits like jewels, to be 'for them'._

I dunno. When will we (as a community) stop thinking we know everything about watches because we spend a little time online talking about them? When will you (wannabe reviewers) do a little research into what you're talking about, or - GASP! - actually contact the manufacturer to ask a few questions?

When will you (wannabe reviewers) stop setting up straw-man arguments (there are no jewels on the Dolphin, and while the magenta may be 'flashy' to some, the women we showed it to love it, and for those who don't, we have the silvery-white version as an alternative)?

_The newly announced NTH sub versions may be marketed as 'unisex', but considering it is the same case, bezel, and bracelet as they have always used, this is simply them saying that these are new 'womens' versions._

It's interesting that you start out with a rant about watches marketed "to women", then you immediately shift to acknowledging we said the Dolphin was a "unisex" design, then immediately do another 180 and say that these are "simply" new 'womens' versions, without saying why.

We actually discussed the size with women, and many we spoke to are fine with it, understood why we DIDN'T make it a different size, and said we'd be fine making it 40mm.

_Why is the assumption made that women don't want a blue or black dial, and would only want a purple or white dial?_

Why assume you know what we assumed? Why assume we assumed anything? Why not ask us why we chose those colors? Why not learn enough to understand the challenges which come from MOQ's, necessitating that we limit color choices? Why not ask women if they like it before assuming they wouldn't?

_Big brands have been doing this forever, taking existing designs, adding jewels or bright colours to 'feminize' them, and then marketing them for women. 
_
"Forever"? A bit hyperbolic, no?

Again, no jewels were added to the Dolphin. But go ahead and focus on the color. Ignore the other design decisions we made to the Dolphin - the smaller circular indices and leaf-shaped primary markers, the complementary leaf-shaped handset, etc. Ignore the brushed steel bezel insert, and the general absence of bling.

_It's an out-dated marketing approach that marginalizes women by making assumptions and conveying the message that women can't like the same watches as men._

"Marginalizes women"? Really? Who made this guy the spokesperson for the NOW?

I actually WENT OUT OF MY WAY TO INVOLVE ACTUAL WOMEN IN THE DESIGN PROCESS - https://www.watchuseek.com/f469/help-brutha-out-4706681.html.

_Shrinking sizes is acceptable, both men and women can have smaller wrists. _

Awesome. So glad we got your approval for making something.

_But let's start working to change the assumptions within this industry when it comes to women, and that they all only want purple or jewels in their watches. For that matter, lets start changing the assumptions that men, or any other gender, doesn't want a purple watch!_

How 'bout we start calling it "magenta" instead of "purple", start reading what we've actually said about it, start making sense, start looking beyond a single image before forming our "expert" opinions, etc?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

You should post that reply on your instagram and tag that "reviewer" in it.

- - - Updated - - -

You should post that reply on your instagram and tag that "reviewer" in it.


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Yeah, us men us men don't want purple watches....... 









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Just so I'm clear here. The guy's lady tried to buy a black Nacken and you refused to sell it to her because she's a woman? You then told her she had to buy your purple watch? I think he may have a point. :-|

Oh, thats not what happened? So she or any other woman are free to buy any black, blue, magenta or other colorway you offer? :roll:

I love the internet o|


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Gotta love this -
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BmPm5pon53I/
> ...


"Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

In the same post he decries marketing watches "to women" (aside: I don't see many WOMEN lamenting that fact that the "big brands" having been aiming smaller sizes at their half of the global population "forever"; perhaps this is less about half-woke gender identity notions and more about decades of preference as expressed through spending dollars? It's not like women haven't had the option to buy "men's" sized watches "forever," or like some of them haven't done so), he turns on the Dolphin for being "unisex," but that you clearly mean that these are intended for women, since the dial is "purple".

And then he faults NTH, or someone, for his assumption that "purple" = "women" and not unisex!
"For that matter, lets start changing the assumptions that men, or any other gender, doesn't want a purple watch!"

If this person had half a brain, he'd realize that the Dolphin is on-the-nose what he's asking for. A watch that is "full sized", isn't marketed explicitly as "for women," and assumes nothing other than that some women and some men would want the Dolphin with a silver or magenta dial. No one is "marginalized" except people who hate those colors, or the word "unisex".

Also, I think these 5000 watches would dispute the notion that any watch maker in the world believes no woman wants a black or blue dialed watch.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> You should post that reply on your instagram and tag that "reviewer" in it.


I support the instinct, but I disagree. This guy is a nobody with 135 followers. Chris has over 15k. All he'd be doing is giving this guy oxygen.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JakeJD said:


> I support the instinct, but I disagree. This guy is a nobody with 135 followers. Chris has over 15k. All he'd be doing is giving this guy oxygen.


Zackly

Doc Savage


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> You should post that reply on your instagram and tag that "reviewer" in it.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> You should post that reply on your instagram and tag that "reviewer" in it.


I posted a link to the thread in the ladies forum, and suggested if he wanted to know more about the thinking that went into it, he could contact us, or simply look at that thread.

Like JakeJD said, I'm not looking to promote the guy. If he was sincere, he'd re-think his comments. If he doubles-down, then he's not worth engaging in discussion.

If he edits his post, and corrects the record, then I would have nothing to say about it. If he doesn't, then what I'd want to say probably isn't worth wasting the energy saying it to him.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

arrvoo said:


> Yeah, us men us men don't want purple watches.......
> View attachment 13377645
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


Doesn't look like that image attachment is working.

I for one wouldn't go out of my way looking for a purple watch, but we made some purple dials for the Orthos, and they sold well enough, though not as well as the other colors.

So, empirically, I'd say few men do want a purple dial, compared to the other colors, and I guess we'll see how many men or women want a magenta colored dial.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

JakeJD said:


> And then he faults NTH, or someone, for his assumption that "purple" = "women" and not unisex!
> "For that matter, lets start changing the assumptions that men, or any other gender, doesn't want a purple watch!"


For me, that magenta Dolphin has been the only NTH I've seen so far that made me consider a purchase. (Not a fan of dive watches, yet really enjoy this thread. Go figure...)

But since I recently picked up the Orion Sylph with the burgundy dial, that color itch and available funds have been spoken for.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Just so I'm clear here. The guy's lady tried to buy a black Nacken and you refused to sell it to her because she's a woman? You then told her she had to buy your purple watch? I think he may have a point. :-|
> 
> Oh, thats not what happened? So she or any other woman are free to buy any black, blue, magenta or other colorway you offer? :roll:
> 
> I love the internet o|


Pretty much.

No idea who this guy is, but he obviously follows us on social media if he's got access to our images that quickly.

It seems like he either just doesn't like my business, and this gave him a convenient excuse to rant about it, or felt like making a name for himself as some sort of women's watch rights crusader.

But if that was the intent, it's entirely misguided, considering I went out of my way to get women involved in the design process.

I've read some of his other "reviews". He makes some good points, misses a few others. He's not coming up with any earth-shattering insights, nothing that any noob here couldn't come up with after spending a few weeks lurking.

It seems like at least once a year, sometimes more often, someone will try to make a name for themselves by taking me on, either here on the forum, or on social media. I don't know if it's the "to be the champ you gotta beat the champ" mindset, or if they just think I'll be goaded into a public pissing contest, from which they'll emerge looking good, and I'll look bad or whatever.

From what I've seen, it's never turned out that way. The guys who come at me here on WUS end up being banned, and go into exile on some lesser-traveled forums. The guys who come at me in FB groups get banned from those groups, and likewise fade into obscurity.

Both tend to attract attention and approval from guys who don't like me already, so they're just preaching to the converted. Everyone else seems to collectively shrug, at worst, when I'm being trashed, or at best, they'll speak up in my defense.

The "reviewers" who trash me don't tend to have big audiences. The big-audience blogs who don't like me are smart enough to not spill any ink talking about me. My own social media profile and reputation among both bloggers and enthusiasts is large enough and positive enough to effectively insulate me from any damage I might take from these guys, and my consistent winning tends to make them all look pretty silly in retrospect.

So...yeah, not really too concerned about it all, but didn't mind taking a few minutes out of my day to craft a hypothetical point-by-point retort.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Just to help make the point, there's an active thread currently bashing Rolex. I don't think Rolex is worried.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> Just to help make the point, there's an active thread currently bashing Rolex. I don't think Rolex is worried.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

That's a ridiculous post. Last year I took a now ex to Alex & Co. to try on watches because she wanted something nicer than her Fitbit for presentations. The first watch they gave her to try was a tiny "Ladies" DJ, which she was not impressed with. What she liked was the 40mm Submariner. Shock of shocks, that size appeals to both sexes.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

When I asked my 27 year old daughter what she likes in a watch, she said a more masculine size and look. Her words. The smaller sizes look “matronly “. Again, her words. So I asked her if she liked purple or magenta? Purple is for kids. Magenta sounds sophisticated. Her words. Submitted for your consideration.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Impressive. In addition to getting everything wrong, he also failed to notice that it's the men who's being alienated by Doc.

"I went out of my way to get women involved in the design process."

..Like he ever does that with us (men).

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> That's a ridiculous post. Last year I took a now ex to Alex & Co. to try on watches because she wanted something nicer than her Fitbit for presentations. The first watch they gave her to try was a tiny "Ladies" DJ, which she was not impressed with. What she liked was the 40mm Submariner. Shock of shocks, that size appeals to both sexes.





Rhorya said:


> When I asked my 27 year old daughter what she likes in a watch, she said a more masculine size and look. Her words. The smaller sizes look "matronly ". Again, her words. So I asked her if she liked purple or magenta? Purple is for kids. Magenta sounds sophisticated. Her words. Submitted for your consideration.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yes, yes...not that I feel it needs a defense, but in case people are wondering...

1. Making a model with a case smaller than 40mm is something I've thought about. I thought about maybe doing a 38mm/39mm whatever, making some portion of them a ladies/unisex design, and making the rest a man's design. I decided against it, for reasons I don't want to re-hash and re-litigate. I'll keep them to myself, just so I can avoid having to open up what will undoubtedly be a days-long debate on the topic, at the end of which, my mind will be just as set as it was months ago. But the point is, I gave this some consideration before I went and did it, probably a lot more than most people commenting gave before they commented.

2. My wife wears the 40mm Santa Cruz, and loves it. My aunt wears a 40mm Acionna and loves it. I have female customers who wear our larger models, like the Orthos, and even the DevilRay. Footie's wife wears a 44mm Spectre, and I see women wearing Panerais, for cryin' out loud. I see the "boyfriend watch" is a thing, and it's typically not a dainty little more-jewelry-than-watch-sized watch. I asked a bunch of women, and got both "make it smaller" and "40mm is wearable" as a response. Making 100 pieces of the 40mm NTH Subs into a unisex model was an easier business case for me to make than making 500 pieces of a smaller model, and making some portion for women.

3. I like purple. This watch isn't purple, but seriously, what's people's beef with purple?

4. I went to the ladies watches forum to ask for women's opinions. No sooner do I hit "post" than I had a bunch of dudes coming out of the woodwork to tell me what I should make. A handful of women popped in to tell the dudes to pipe down. As I figured, we men have no freaking clue what most women want, so why not ask 'em? It's kind of hilarious that some dude is going to chide me because *HE* doesn't think *I'M* paying enough attention to what women want.

5. We're making 100 pieces to start, with 100 more we can make in reserve, before I have to order more dials whipped up. I'm blessed that my business has grown to the point that I can even consider accepting an MOQ of 50 pieces per version of anything, and that I'm not concerned about whether or not we'll be able to sell 100 pieces of the Dolphin, and probably 200 pieces, without too much trouble. Mark my words, if and when that happens, you'll see a half dozen other micros coming out with their unisex models within the next 12 months, and every clown on the internet who criticized me will be buying big, honking, jumbo-sized wheelbarrows to carry all the praise they'll be heaping upon my competitors, throwing around words like "innovative", "original", "disruptive", "daring", etc, etc, etc.

Meanwhile, I'll be over here, with Aaron and Rusty, working on the next cool thing others will want to copy, because that's what we do, and that's what they do.

EDIT - Ugh, these double-post WOT's.

I can't even.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> Impressive. In addition to getting everything wrong, he also failed to notice that it's the men who's being alienated by Doc.
> 
> "I went out of my way to get women involved in the design process."
> 
> ...


Well plaid.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Cool job. I like the Bahia in the new round.

- - - Updated - - -

Cool job. I like the Bahia in the new round.

EDIT: Crazy double post.


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Doc, will the next batch of Näcken Modern Blues set for shipment in October also come with the new improved bracelet?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yeah, so...the other two new designs got revealed.

Meet the Bahia, and the Skipjack...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

karmadrome said:


> Doc, will the next batch of Näcken Modern Blues set for shipment in October also come with the new improved bracelet?


Everything coming in October has the new bracelet - Carolina, Catalina, Nackens, all of them.

So...if you ordered one of the new Nackens from John at Watch Gauge, odds are you under-paid, as we didn't realize the price would be going up, by necessity, until he'd sold something like 40-45 of the 60 pieces he ordered.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

^^^Before anyone points out the "color differences" between the 2D and 3D illustrations, prompting a smarta$$ response from me, yes, I realize they appear different.

Aaron illustrates using some bootleg version of Adobe Illustrator. Rusty's using SolidWorks to do 3D. Two different programs, two different sets of color inputs, different settings for illustrations, two different guys trying to do their best to emulate what some future reality will look like, etc, etc, etc.

The Bahia:

- Bezel is "Dark Gun Metal" - make of that what you will. It's not black. It's not light gray. It's "dark gun metal". That's what the plating factory calls that color. The lume on the bezel is BG W9, so it looks white, and glows blue.

- Dial is matte black. Lume is that "Natural" color of Superluminova we've been using on the vintage Nackens and the new Tiburon.

Skipjack:

- Bezel is "Super Black" - no, I'm not jerking your chain, it's a new blacker-than-our-other-black color of DLC. It's got C3 lume, because I wanted it to have C3 lume, because I think that's what would look best.

- Dial is going to be glossy black, no texture (that's a reflection, not a sunburst), just glossy, like enamel, with more C3. Yes, that's the logo, the full NTH logo with stylized circle, to evoke the bezel. Yes, it's different than the others. Yes, we took some inspiration from the Rado Captain Cook, as well as the Zodiac Red Dot, and a few other places.









The circular logo is a nod to Rado's spinning anchor logo and the red dot on the Zodiac. It's okay if people don't get it, because we do, and we designed it, so we know what we were thinking better than anyone else.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

o|o|o|

:-!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Dayum! I really, really like that Skipjack. Too bad my wallet has run and hid. 'Sides, it comes after that Cali dial. Nazario! Just sayin.'


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Anyhoo...it's almost 7:30, I never ate lunch, and so I'm WAAAAaaayyyyyyy overdue for some food, and alcohol.

Lemme summarize a bit of what's going on before I lock up the shop for the night (or until I get bored of TV and look at Tapatalk)...

You've seen all the new designs now. Hope you like 'em.

Here's what's coming in October:

The BSHT Carolina - a true negative-relief gilt "enamel" glossy dial with (seriously, kill me now) pencil hands and lollipop seconds, made according to the design voting results from the guys in the long-running BSHT threads here in the affordables sub-forum. Just 40 pieces being made, all no-date, and just 2 left available.

The TVG Catalina - the Pilot-Diver mash-up co-designed by Tristano of The Urban Gentry, and exclusively for sale through Watch Gauge. Just 100 pieces being made, all no-date. No idea how many are left, but last I heard from John, it wasn't very many.

The Holland - the sunray-pastel blue/brown semi-homage to the platinum Daytona, just 50 pieces being made, all no-date, exclusively for sale through Serious Watches.

The Nazario Sauro - the red-white-and-blue full-lume rice-paper California dial hotness. Just 50 pieces being made, all no-date, exclusively for sale through Watch Gauge.

The Dolphin, in Magenta, and...I think we'll call that color "Ice", because haters and customs officials can bite me for killing my ability to use "silver", "platinum" and "pearl" as colors, and you boneheads are the only ones who'd understand if I called it "whilver", and as much as I want to call it "Mist", I know at least one jackwagon on Instagram who'll delight in quipping that we "missed".

The Näcken Vintage White - full lume (C3) rice-paper dial with blacked out hands. Love the Santa Fe, everything but the Merc hands? I got your hook-up.

The Bahia - our mash-up tribute/homage to vintage Heuer divers with field-watch numbering and Tudor subs.

The Skipjack - our mash-up tribute/homage to the Rado Captain Cook, Zodiac Red Dot, and...ah, eff it, we grabbed a bit of Omega and threw it in there. We like it, so bite us.

The Näcken Modern Blue - John and Watch Gauge have already blown through pre-orders for all the ones we've got in production, all no date. Sorry if you missed out, but hang around, because we could be making more sooner than even I expect.

More of the Näcken Renegade, because, c'mon, that's the $hlt that killed Elvis.

More of the Scorpène Blue, because, c'mon, we all know it's an instant panty-dropper.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> Dayum! I really, really like that Skipjack. Too bad my wallet has run and hid. 'Sides, it comes after that Cali dial. Nazario! Just sayin.'


Complains about full-lume dials with lumed, rather than blacked-out hands.

Ignores the full-lume / blacked-out hands Nacken in favor of the lumed-hands Nazario.

Par for the course.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Still ain't eaten yet...

Someone here was riding me recently about not keeping this thread up-to-date with stuff I'd posted elsewhere, like the bracelet changes.

As I said, we always have a plan, so...always good to keep your shorts un-knotted and let us work the plan we've got.

Blog post about the bracelet upgrades, price changes, and other stuff went up today. I'm not allowed to post a link, but...seriously, if you're hanging out in this thread, and you don't know how to find my website and its blog section by now, you're probably not going to click on the link I'd post anyway.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Complains about full-lume dials with lumed, rather than blacked-out hands.
> 
> Ignores the full-lume / blacked-out hands Nacken in favor of the lumed-hands Nazario.
> 
> Par for the course.


Yup. What can I say? California dial, NO snowflake hands. Heeheehee. And no darn money.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> Yup. What can I say? California dial, NO snowflake hands. Heeheehee. And no darn money.


I used to hate snowflake hands, but since doing the Subs, they've grown on me a lot, and now I like them. I especially like them with the square markers of the Nackens.

I never liked cathedral hands much, but they've grown on me, too, and I'm thinking I may have to add a Bahia to the personal collection.

You know what hands are never bad?


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The Näcken Vintage White - full lume (C3) rice-paper dial with blacked out hands. Love the Santa Fe, everything but the Merc hands? I got your hook-up.


I just got that Santa Fe off you and now this?? Bastard.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



househalfman said:


> I just got that Santa Fe off you and now this?? Bastard.


Was that you?

Give credit where it's due, I sold the Santa Fe relatively cheap, and it's not like I *knew* you'd rather have a Nacken Vintage White.

Everyone acts like I plan everything. I only plan half the things. The other half, I'm just winging it.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I really like that Bahia. And that Skipjack. Very nice designs!

Hard to pick a favorite, really.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

That's a *lot* of Sub variations.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> Yeah, so...the other two new designs got revealed.
> 
> Meet the Bahia, and the Skipjack...
> 
> ...


I limit myself to only one NTH Sub. I sold my Nacken Vintage black for the Carolina. And dammmnnnn, I love those Bahia and Skipjack, AND Nacken White. Unfortunately (luckily), no more fund at the moment


----------



## ConfusedOne (Sep 29, 2015)

Still kicking myself for not having enough to get a Carolina.
I can at least vicariously enjoy the pictures you guys will post of them around October.


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

When do pre orders start on the new designs?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Hey doc...

What is, from your experience/knowledge, better - a domed sapphire or a flat sapphire crystal?

Afaik buyers generally like domed, but I guess for most it's either an aesthetic or "domed = better 'cos it's more expensive" kind of decision. And lately box crystals are fashionable because "vintage". But, from a watchmaker (or at least somewhat better informed) perspective.. what are your thoughts on this? Are there any objective upsides or downsides to flat or domed crystals?


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Hey doc...
> 
> What is, from your experience/knowledge, better - a domed sapphire or a flat sapphire crystal?


Faceted crystals! Like the ones on Seiko Lord Matics of the early 70's. Now that would be interesting on an NTH Sub..


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Faceted crystals is also a format, true. 

Tbh I wasn't specifically thinking about the subs or, indeed, any particular nth watch. I'm kinda curious in general - if there was no bias from consumer side, what are the objective properties that remain for each format? Is "domed" a clear functional / engineering upgrade over "flat" or not? And where does that leave the boxed and faceted options?


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Faceted crystals is also a format, true.
> 
> Tbh I wasn't specifically thinking about the subs or, indeed, any particular nth watch. I'm kinda curious in general - if there was no bias from consumer side, what are the objective properties that remain for each format? Is "domed" a clear functional / engineering upgrade over "flat" or not? And where does that leave the boxed and faceted options?


I assume domed is better with regards to water resistance due to pressure distribution and perhaps readability in water. But even if this is true I don't think that it is considerable in real life use.

- - - Updated - - -



X2-Elijah said:


> Faceted crystals is also a format, true.
> 
> Tbh I wasn't specifically thinking about the subs or, indeed, any particular nth watch. I'm kinda curious in general - if there was no bias from consumer side, what are the objective properties that remain for each format? Is "domed" a clear functional / engineering upgrade over "flat" or not? And where does that leave the boxed and faceted options?


I assume domed is better with regards to water resistance due to pressure distribution and perhaps readability in water. But even if this is true I don't think that it is considerable in real life use.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

New ad campaign detected
"NTH Subs: Feta Cheese, Panty-Droppers, and the S#!t that Killed Elvis"


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> - Dial is going to be glossy black, no texture (that's a reflection, not a sunburst), just glossy, like enamel, with more C3. Yes, that's the logo, the full NTH logo with stylized circle, to evoke the bezel. Yes, it's different than the others. Yes, we took some inspiration from the Rado Captain Cook, as well as the Zodiac Red Dot, and a few other places.
> 
> View attachment 13378129
> 
> ...


OMG you've got a spinning logo on this one?!? That's so cool !!!

Guys-Doc's put a spinning logo on this SkipJack!!!!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



pb9610 said:


> When do pre orders start on the new designs?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Date not set yet. Sometime in September.

Subscribe to the newsletter. Follow us on social media. You won't miss it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Hey doc...
> 
> What is, from your experience/knowledge, better - a domed sapphire or a flat sapphire crystal?
> 
> Afaik buyers generally like domed, but I guess for most it's either an aesthetic or "domed = better 'cos it's more expensive" kind of decision. And lately box crystals are fashionable because "vintage". But, from a watchmaker (or at least somewhat better informed) perspective.. what are your thoughts on this? Are there any objective upsides or downsides to flat or domed crystals?


Pros and cons. Basically what you said/what you'd think.

Flat = less costly, least distortion, least aesthetically interesting, least likely to take a glancing blow, but perhaps most vulnerable to breaking due to a direct hit.

The more you dome/raise/box the crystal, the more expensive it gets to produce, generally (assuming same material), the more distortion you get, the more likely it is to take (and break from) a glancing blow, but likely less vulnerable to breaking via a direct hit.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

The Skipjack looks badass (they all do really). Until then, the amazing dial on the Näcken Renegade will keep me company. Beyond chuffed with this one.










Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I haven't been especially active on the forum lately (life's pretty busy for me at the moment), but I gotta say those new subs are pretty groovy.

That lume-dial Nacken? Very, very nice.

- - - Updated - - -

I haven't been especially active on the forum lately (life's pretty busy for me at the moment), but I gotta say those new subs are pretty groovy.

That lume-dial Nacken? Very, very nice.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I'd say the Skipjack and the Bahia are the two standouts in the new round. 

I'm already eyeing the Skipjack although I don't generally like arrow hands.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

The skipjack is money! I was just thinking with 2 subs, Carolina on the way, I have all the subs I need. Nope from last last night to this morning I've convinced myself I'll be buying a skipjack.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



skunkworks said:


> The skipjack is money!


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

docvail said:


> Yeah, so...the other two new designs got revealed.
> 
> Meet the Bahia, and the Skipjack...
> 
> View attachment 13378091


Really like the Skipjack (the wonderful name notwithstanding). I like the Captain Cook vibe......which was on my "I like it, but it's too expensive, 37mm is too small, and 45mm is too big" List.

As an alternative to Tanjecterly's post, I REALLY LIKE the arrow hands. Much like the broad arrow hands on the Speedmaster 57, another favorite.

Skip


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



skipwilliams said:


> Really like the Skipjack (the wonderful name notwithstanding). I like the Captain Cook vibe......which was on my "I like, but it's too expensive, 37mm is too small, and 45mm is too big" List.
> 
> Skip
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yep. The Captain Cook is eye-catching, but the more I looked at it, the more things I saw that I wanted to "fix" - the mismatched handset and mismatched indices being eye-sores to me. The white date wheel under black dial and window at 3 aren't ideal. And the sizing there is definitely a bit of "pick your poison", or, if you're more pessimistic, "punch you in the face, or in the d**k?"

At some point, we were looking at doing a more Zodiac Red Dot take on the Santa Fe, but I just wasn't feeling it, so we sort of blended the Zodiac into the the idea we had for the Skipjack, plus added some classic Omega Seamaster vibe. People are going to say it's just a Captain Cook homage, and that's fine, but if they're being fair, they'll see that we changed (read: improved) some details.

We were already talking about doing some glossy dial finishes when the BSHT guys came along with their Carolina project, so that gave us added incentive to talk to our factory about getting the look right. A glossy black dial will show any imperfection and make it glaring.


----------



## qrocks (Apr 19, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Bloom said:


> The Skipjack looks badass (they all do really). Until then, the amazing dial on the Näcken Renegade will keep me company. Beyond chuffed with this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


great watch. there are many aspects that balance so well with each other. I think this watch is my favorite Nth I don't own (I only own 3...). The Dolphin (I'm a Vikings fan) and the Holland (had me at root beer bezel) are looking extra, extra fine as well!


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13378091


See a lot of family resemblance in the Skipjack dial to the Commander. It's definitely a looker and the red logo is badass. If it had sword hands I'd be all over it like white on rice but it has peaked my interest regardless.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



qrocks said:


> great watch. there are many aspects that balance so well with each other. I think this watch is my favorite Nth I don't own (I only own 3...). The Dolphin (I'm a Vikings fan) and the Holland (had me at root beer bezel) are looking extra, extra fine as well!


Agreed with all your points; the other models are cool, but the Renegade is exceptional (at least to me anyway). Another aspect that I dig besides the killer dial is the NTH logo, as it reminds me of an old Viking rune. Badass.

Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> .


So sick that I don't like white dials more than I do.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> More of the Scorpène Blue, because, c'mon, we all know it's an instant panty-dropper.


S'troo, got one, it just so never stops.........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...not tomorrow, but next weekend, my family and I will be doing a little 4-day (Fri-Mon) mini-vacation in Nashville, TN.

I'm not going to have time for a full-blown GTG, but I might be able to break away for an hour or two if anyone in the area wants to grab a drink and see some watches. I'll likely bring the Renegade, the Scorpene Blue, and one or two of my DevilRays. 

So, if you're near Nashville, feel like linking up, and want to see any/all of those in the metal, I'll try to make that happen. I'm sure by mid-weekend my wife will be tired of me, and happy to get rid of me for an hour or so.

We're staying at some joint "in the heart of East Nashville", whatever that means.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We posted the video for the Skipjack today.














I also realized we had this image of the Bahia, which I think is likely to end up being the most accurate representation of what it'll look like:









Call me crazy, but I think Rusty's been nailing the 3D's pretty well recently, considering how challenging it can be...


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Hey Doc, question about the upcoming skipjack. When comparing the renders you just posted to the actual watches, I noticed that the markings and lume look slightly vintage in the render, but white in the real life photos.
Is this going to be the same for the skipjack? Or will it look more like the commander 300?

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> Hey Doc, question about the upcoming skipjack. When comparing the renders you just posted to the actual watches, I noticed that the markings and lume look slightly vintage in the render, but white in the real life photos.
> Is this going to be the same for the skipjack? Or will it look more like the commander 300?
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


The Skipjack is C3; pale yellow-white.

The Commander is not C3; it's "old radium"; beige.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The Skipjack is C3; pale yellow-white.
> 
> The Commander is not C3; it's "old radium"; beige.
> 
> Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


Thanks Doc, you just saved me from buying a hydroconquest tomorrow! I think that money will be better spent on a skipjack. 
After seeing real photos of the tiburon (which also uses c3 I believe) it is Not as yellow as I had feared. 
Counting down the days until pre-order.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Everyone acts like I plan everything. I only plan half the things. The other half, I'm just winging it.


Seem to work just fine for you!

As much as I like these recent iterations, for some reason I still prefer the first batch. That full lume näcken might change that though. That rado homage ain't too bad looking either.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> Thanks Doc, you just saved me from buying a hydroconquest tomorrow! I think that money will be better spent on a skipjack.
> After seeing real photos of the tiburon (which also uses c3 I believe) it is Not as yellow as I had feared.
> Counting down the days until pre-order.
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


The Tiburon is not C3. It's "Natural", like the Nacken Vintage Blue and Vintage Black.

Look at the Barracuda, the Amphion Vintage Black, the Santa Fe - those are all C3.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

*C3 Lume:*

Barracuda - https://www.google.com/search?q=NTH...UICigB&biw=1366&bih=629#imgrc=RNfM4DP2SLfydM:

Amphion Dark Gilt - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...0....0...1.1.64.img..3.6.874....0.bu66VmXqk8s

Santa Fe - https://www.google.com/search?q=nth...o-TcAhWxmOAKHauqBCAQ_AUIDCgD&biw=1366&bih=629

*Natural Lume:*

Nacken Vintage Blue - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...8i30k1j0i10i24k1j35i39k1j0i67k1.0.dtQ4QQ5xvW0

Nacken Vintage Black - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1....1.1.64.img..0.5.488...0j0i24k1.0.FLk05lpHPcA

Tiburon - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...i67k1j0i5i30k1j0i10i24k1j0i24k1.0.SMgZuqleQqU
*
"Old Radium" Lume:*

Amphion Vintage Black - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...0....0...1.1.64.img..4.1.267....0.tLd7INzEdIo

Amphion Vintage Blue - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...0...1.1.64.img..1.1.98...0i30k1.0.lTmgbk_RaHg

Oberon - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...mg..4.2.418...0i5i30k1j0i8i30k1.0.zBBoKdyoofc

Santa Cruz - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...1.1.64.img..3.7.1420...0j0i67k1.0.S4eoEu4MDVI

*BG W9 Lume:*

Nacken Modern Black - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...15.1611...35i39k1j0i30k1j0i24k1.0.aMbn207W-7w

Everyone all clear on the lume colors?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Hmm. In the Näcken white/lumedill, the hands are black-edged, with a black powdery "filling" material in place of lume.

Wouldn't it be easier to just have the hands full (same surface throughout, edge to edge, without the powdery filler material)? Or is there some other purpose that the powdery filler serves?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm. In the Näcken white/lumedill, the hands are black-edged, with a black powdery "filling" material in place of lume.
> 
> Wouldn't it be easier to just have the hands full (same surface throughout, edge to edge, without the powdery filler material)? Or is there some other purpose that the powdery filler serves?


You're over-thinking/over-analyzing.

The hands are blacked out. You're looking at a 3D render. Rusty had to "tell" the software that there's a material which fills a void area in the hands. Rusty had to guess what sort of material that would be. That's just what the software program thinks that looks like.

The handset frames are stainless steel. Their black coating will come from PVD plating.

What's the black material which fills in the lume patches? I have no idea, because I never bothered to ask, because I don't need to know. No one does, except the guy at the factory whose job it is to make sure they don't run out of it.

Is it going to look EXACTLY like that? I don't know. They're tiny little lume patches on tiny little hands. Have you ever looked at lume up close? Did you see that its surface isn't perfectly even? Did it bother you? I'm guessing it didn't, because that's just how lume is.

This is one of those things that isn't worth obsessing over. I guarantee they'll look fine in the metal, viewed at normal viewing distance.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

yes, ofc I have looked at lume up close 

























I was just curious why there even is any filler at all. Seems like it would be simpler to press out a flat metal "hand" without any lumeholes/pits. ... Hmm, that would require making new stamps though.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Oops! I misread as the whole thing was c3 when you clearly listed it as just the bezel. So, just to be clear, the skipjack IS C3 correct?









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Here's a mind-twister - suppose we did come up with a way to travel great distances through space by way of traveling faster than light. If you left Earth for a distant planet, traveling at faster-than-light speed, you'd be traveling backwards through time as you went, and arriving at that planet before you left Earth.
> 
> If you turned around and came right back, would you get here before you left in the first place, and if so, could you run into yourself, and if you did, would that rip a hole in the fabric of space-time, and destroy us all, like in Time Cop?


I'm not sure this is quite right.

Time still elapses during your faster than light journey.

If you travelled at the speed of light (where to you time stands still) for a year, you still arrive, according to outside observers, a year later.

Travel at twice the speed of light over the same distance and it'll take you half a year. It felt to you like you were travelling back in time but, to outside observers, you still arrived half a year later in their timeline.

So, what happens if you do some faster than light travel and then turn around and do the same back is you have a wonderful adventure and get back home younger than you left.

Edit: much more feasible is that you travel really fast below the speed of light. In that scenario you definitely come home having aged less than your contemporaries.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmnc said:


> I'm not sure this is quite right.
> 
> Time still elapses during your faster than light journey.
> 
> ...


You're paining my brain Man.........

Stop it. Watch speak only today, gotta a hang-over.........

Cheers, (hic)

Alan


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

....and all superman had to do was fly so fast he forced the eh to rotate backwards...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> Oops! I misread as the whole thing was c3 when you clearly listed it as just the bezel. So, just to be clear, the skipjack IS C3 correct?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Correct.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmnc said:


> I'm not sure this is quite right.
> 
> Time still elapses during your faster than light journey.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure what I said is precisely right. But maybe someone here is a theoretical physicist, and will speak up.

Einstein theorized, and NASA scientists have confirmed, that the faster you travel, the slower you experience the passage of time relative to others who are travelling more slowly. The passage of time is relative to our speed through space.

Astronauts in orbit get slightly out of sync with us on Earth. Our time continues to pass "normally", as theirs slows down. We age more on Earth than they do in orbit, because more time is passing for us than it is for them, as they are moving faster than we are.

If you traveled exactly at the speed of light, your body would continue to age, but you'd be travelling near-instantaneously between points in space, such that very little if any time would pass between points A and B. It's virtually teleportation.

If you traveled faster than light, again, your body would continue to age - you certainly wouldn't grow younger - but you'd be travelling backwards through time, such that your arrival time at point B would be earlier than your departure time from point A.

Feasible?

None of this is feasible. It's all theoretical, hence, Einstein's "theory" of relativity.

As you speed up, and approach the speed of light, your time passes slower relative to others.

Precisely at the speed of light, your time stops relative to others.

Faster than the speed of light, your time goes in reverse relative to others, and the faster you travel, the faster your time goes in reverse.=


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> yes, ofc I have looked at lume up close
> 
> View attachment 13381669
> 
> ...


Ah.

The filler is there because the hands are made with a void for the lume. Something has to go there, in this case, something black.

They could make the hands without the lume patches, and they do make some hands without them, but not these hands.

Imagine a handset factory making snowflake hands without lume patches.

Why would you even?


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> .
> Faster than the speed of light, your time goes in reverse relative to others, and the faster you travel, the faster your time goes in reverse.=


It's been a while, but I was something a bit like that theoretical physicist a long time ago, though I'm super rusty now.

You're entirely right that at below light speed you appear to others to age more slowly. And at light speed to not age at all.

And the above is correct for above light speed too. From the earth frame your clock would appear to be running backwards, and you would return younger than you left.

You would never arrive before you departed though. Not to people on earth. To people on earth all the funky stuff appears to be going on at your end.

However, as the traveller it might seem like you've arrived before you left because from your spaceship the earth's clock seems to be running backwards. Though this is all quite far fetched. Below light speed is all testable and understandable. Above is more a consequence of the maths.

There's also the whole instantaneous acceleration and turn around issue with these thought experiments but that's a problem for another day.

In terms of it all being "theory", that's a bit like the idea that evolution is only a theory. This stuff is very real. Accurate GPS must take account of relativistic effects. Without special relativity cosmic rays wouldn't get anywhere near as close to the earth as they do. What's more, the whole sky would be full of super bright light in every direction. It doesn't affect walking down the street but is very apparent in more around us than one might expect.

That all said, I did once ask my astrophysics supervisor a very similar question. Something along the lines of "what would it feel like to be a photon and travel at the speed of light?" His response was a disapproving look and "You are not a photon. You have mass and you can't travel at the speed of light. If you did, you would feel no time and experience nothing. Don't worry about it".

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmnc said:


> It's been a while, but I was something a bit like that theoretical physicist a long time ago, though I'm super rusty now.
> 
> You're entirely right that at below light speed you appear to others to age more slowly. And at light speed to not age at all.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you're agreeing with me, but for semantics.

Let's leave the theory of evolution alone, as recent discoveries seem to cast some doubt upon how it's been understood and promoted. It seems it is still a theory, albeit a widely accepted one.

Note that my original post on the topic didn't say your departure and arrival points were in the same physical space. I had points A and B as two planets very far apart.

If they are one light-year apart, one year would pass on both of them as you traveled between them at light speed, yet no time at all would seem to pass for you, correct?

So, if your time would pass in reverse if you were to travel even faster, then, by definition, it would seem, your arrival at point B would be prior to your departure time from point A, and the faster you travelled, the earlier it would be.

I get that it's all theoretical, and none of it was feasible, but for crying out loud, we were talking about sci-fi movies, and my point was that the real science often renders the fiction a bit silly. My arrive-before-you-depart thought experiment being an example of such. If you're saying it's silly, that was exactly my point.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Sounds like you're agreeing with me, but for semantics.
> 
> Let's leave the theory of evolution alone, as recent discoveries seem to cast some doubt upon how it's been understood and promoted. It seems it is still a theory, albeit a widely accepted one.
> 
> ...


It is, as you'd expect, relative. To the people at A and B you appear to arrive younger than you left. To you, you appear to arrive before you left.

Like most of relativity, the explanation from different viewpoints is different. Was the distance shorter or the time it took less etc.

The workings of the universe are quite silly enough without us having to inject extra weirdness into how things work. It would be fantastic to see a sci-fi movie that was all about trying to emulate the genuinely peculiar crap that would go on if we were all travelling around at near light speed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Sounds like you're agreeing with me, but for semantics.
> 
> Let's leave the theory of evolution alone, as recent discoveries seem to cast some doubt upon how it's been understood and promoted. It seems it is still a theory, albeit a widely accepted one.
> 
> ...


You know you only have to be going 88MPH right? Not this speed-of-light garbage.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

egad!

i wake up, sunny day out, getting my gear on for saturday bike ride...'hey, check out wus threads for watches and cool pics before you go' and see...wot's on theory of relativity?

:think:

ok, toss in some pics to distract them back to watches ...everyone have a great saturday!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmnc said:


> It is, as you'd expect, relative. To the people at A and B you appear to arrive younger than you left. To you, you appear to arrive before you left.
> 
> Like most of relativity, the explanation from different viewpoints is different. Was the distance shorter or the time it took less etc.
> 
> ...


Exactly! I would love to see an absurd sci-fi comedy which sets up gags based on how actual science would affect typical sci-fi scenarios.

That's what I was getting at - could you high-five yourself as you passed each other on different legs of your faster than lightspeed journey? I love it when movies throw curveballs like that at you, and get you thinking. Most movies are such a let down, because the story plays out so predictably.

"Oh, gee, I wonder if the creepy dude isn't really what he seems..."

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

There's no instantaneous travel or teleportation.

Special relativity tells us moving clocks run slower than stationary clocks, but only from the perspective of the stationary clock. We have to use this to adjust time on our gps satellites. 

So a person traveling away from Earth at the speed of light, for one light year, will still experience one years passage of time, it's not instantaneous. At the instant one year has passed for the traveler, the stationary clock on Earth will show more than one year has passed. If the traveler returns one light year back to earth at the speed of light, another year will pass for the traveler. But even more time will have passed on Earth. The traveler will have experienced 2 years passage, but the stationary observers will have experienced more than 2 years, ie the traveler has aged less.

This effect obviously gets amplified by faster than light travel.

You also have to factor in general relativity which tells us clocks move slower the closer they are to a heavy mass, like the planet. Some of the time difference will be cancelled out by this, which we also have to account for with the gps satellites.




Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

If you go the speed of light will you glow more like c3 or c1...or bg9...🤪

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

This arrived in the blink of an eye. How fast do you suppose it was traveling to get here from past Uranus?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Damn nails in the tire. Waiting for a new tire then of to see ZZ Top.
At least I have something to stare longingly at









Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'm pretty sure what I said is precisely right. But maybe someone here is a theoretical physicist, and will speak up.
> 
> Einstein theorized, and NASA scientists have confirmed, that the faster you travel, the slower you experience the passage of time relative to others who are travelling more slowly. The passage of time is relative to our speed through space.
> 
> ...


Chris, my wife is a theoretical physicist. She is of the camp that you cannot travel faster than the speed of light, and you cannot time travel backwards. Yes if you travel quickly, you will seem to age more slowly than someone not moving, but that's not time travel. She also hates sci-fi and is not a big fan of string theory, so maybe she's not a very imaginative theoretical physicist.

And please note that the use of the word "theory" somehow makes it less credible. In general, "laws" are simply descriptive of the universe. "theories" try to describe how or why or cause and effect. Some "laws" are theoretical (for example laws of gravity ignoring friction) and some "theories" are very practical. "it's just a theory" is an excuse to ignore very fundamental scientific truths for those whom the result of the theory would be very inconvenient. Please don't encouage that kind of thinking. 
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Perdendosi said:


> Chris, my wife is a theoretical physicist. She is of the camp that you cannot travel faster than the speed of light, and you cannot time travel backwards. Yes if you travel quickly, you will seem to age more slowly than someone not moving, but that's not time travel. She also hates sci-fi and is not a big fan of string theory, so maybe she's not a very imaginative theoretical physicist.
> 
> And please note that the use of the word "theory" somehow makes it less credible. In general, "laws" are simply descriptive of the universe. "theories" try to describe how or why or cause and effect. Some "laws" are theoretical (for example laws of gravity ignoring friction) and some "theories" are very practical. "it's just a theory" is an excuse to ignore very fundamental scientific truths for those whom the result of the theory would be very inconvenient. Please don't encouage that kind of thinking.
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


You (and your wife) beat me to it.

Relativity describes travel as we approach the speed of light. But the speed of light is a fixed barrier. It applies to everything within the universe. The universe could not exist, or more specifically, time, matter, and space could not exist without a limit on velocity.

I am also not a fan of string theory or the multiverse. More science fiction than a respectable theory, imo, and a poor way to cover up our scientific inadequacies in discovering a coherent Theory of Everything.

Doc Savage


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Back on topic - here's a Barracuda No Date I was able to score off the site recently. I'm loving it!










Doc Savage


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> You (and your wife) beat me to it.
> 
> Relativity describes travel as we approach the speed of light. But the speed of light is a fixed barrier. It applies to everything within the universe. The universe could not exist, or more specifically, time, matter, and space could not exist without a limit on velocity.
> 
> Doc Savage


As I understand it, the universe itself expanded faster than the speed of light immediately after the big bang. It can do that. Nothing IN the universe, that we know of, can, at least not in the vacuum of space. In water, light can only go 75% the speed it can in space, whereas electrons in water can go FTL given that limitation. That's how you get Cherenkov radiation in submerged reactors - the charged particles have broken the light barrier.


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Information can travel instantaneously via quantum entanglement though, right? 🤔



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Relativity describes travel as we approach the speed of light. But the speed of light is a fixed barrier. It applies to everything within the universe. The universe could not exist, or more specifically, time, matter, and space could not exist without a limit on velocity.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ian_61 said:


> Information can travel instantaneously via quantum entanglement though, right? ��


Glad you brought it up. ....and its incredible to think about the vast distances we could be talking about......

And the potential sequella.............

Now we're onto the good stuff....

- - - Updated - - -



Ian_61 said:


> Information can travel instantaneously via quantum entanglement though, right? ��


Glad you brought it up. ....and it's incredible to think about the vast distances we could be talking about......

And the potential sequella.............

Now we're onto the good stuff....


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Quantum entanglement alone can explain the spooky double postings.

- - - Updated - - -

Quantum entanglement alone can explain the spooky double postings.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> As I understand it, the universe itself expanded faster than the speed of light immediately after the big bang. It can do that. Nothing IN the universe, that we know of, can, at least not in the vacuum of space. In water, light can only go 75% the speed it can in space, whereas electrons in water can go FTL given that limitation. That's how you get Cherenkov radiation in submerged reactors - the charged particles have broken the light barrier.


Yes, you are right, but that requires it to be in a medium, not in empty space. I was ignoring this, because the earlier discussion was centered around faster than light interstellar travel. And since the vast, vast majority of the universe is empty space, discussions of FTL travel pretty much center on zero medium.

Doc Savage


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Time is a human invention.

Things are until they are not.

People don't think time be like it is but, it do.

All in good fun gents!


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Speed bounded by light
F U says entanglement
Rules should be broken


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

My wife never understood why I was cackling like mad when a local pizza joint, F U Pizza, was mentioned.

That said,

There is no Swiss or Chinese in perceiving time.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> I'd say the Skipjack and the Bahia are the two standouts in the new round.
> 
> I'm already eyeing the Skipjack although I don't generally like arrow hands.


You didn't see the Carolina


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Bleedingblue said:


> See a lot of family resemblance in the Skipjack dial to the Commander. It's definitely a looker and the red logo is badass. If it had sword hands I'd be all over it like white on rice but it has peaked my interest regardless.
> View attachment 13380051


Me too but I have both the commander and the ghost ride on this thread


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The Skipjack is C3; pale yellow-white.
> 
> The Commander is not C3; it's "old radium"; beige.
> 
> Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!












With these and my planet Ocean I wonder why the skipjack is calling to me


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Ok this thread made me go play with my watch box my current state of Chris watches and a Carolina inbound










And this went on for Sunday










Ghostrider


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



CMA22inc said:


> Time is a human invention.
> 
> Things are until they are not.
> 
> ...


Time alone is a human invention, but spacetime exists independent of us. If we could only find a mechanical watch that could measure it...

Doc Savage


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Saturday was such a write off - total alcoholic cloud-out.........

Anyway, did I miss anything, has Back to the Future finished yet........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

winstoda said:


> Can't beat the Seaforth when it comes to matching date wheels...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What BOR bracelet is that? Looks great! Fits right off the shelve or need some fiddling around with a dremel?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Reflection in bright sunlight...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I got a little Sunday reflection going on too. About what I'm going to eat for breakfast.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## dwczinmb (May 28, 2018)

Rhorya said:


> I got a little Sunday reflection going on too. About what I'm going to eat for breakfast.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really liking these Nackens and I especially appreciate that the date is at 6o'clock. A date feature is a must for me and haphazardly placed date windows often ruin a watch I otherwise liked.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Yarp, the 6-o-clock date window really works well with the näckens' indices; the sizing and elevation is spot-on.

- - - Updated - - -

Yarp, the 6-o-clock date window really works well with the näckens' indices; the sizing and elevation is spot-on.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

dwczinmb said:


> Really liking these Nackens and I especially appreciate that the date is at 6o'clock. A date feature is a must for me and haphazardly placed date windows often ruin a watch I otherwise liked.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Totally agree!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## dwczinmb (May 28, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Yarp, the 6-o-clock date window really works well with the näckens' indices; the sizing and elevation is spot-on.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Yarp, the 6-o-clock date window really works well with the näckens' indices; the sizing and elevation is spot-on.


Yes! I can't even fault the white background because it looks just like the indices. I'm sure that's no accident based on the posts I've read from docvail. A Nacken just may be the first over-$200 watch purchase I make. I strongly prefer black dial and stainless case, but the other colors look amazing. Very impressive watches.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I'd suggest the renegade, tbh. The brushed faded dial is to die for.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

All this crazy sci-fi talk... and I'm silly for believing in an all-powerful God. 

BTW - hope your Sunday is Legendary:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Wimads said:


> What BOR bracelet is that? Looks great! Fits right off the shelve or need some fiddling around with a dremel?


Watch Gecko. No fiddling required but you do need the additional endlinks they sell. I bought both the generic and submariner ones... One fits and one doesn't. Unfortunately they arrived unlabeled so no idea which is which. Luckily they're cheap to grab both...

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## dwczinmb (May 28, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> I'd suggest the renegade, tbh. The brushed faded dial is to die for.
> 
> View attachment 13385183


Yes! That one is perfect. I'll have to start looking out for one. I'm guessing these (Nackens, in general) aren't readily available pre-owned?

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Hard to say. Some might pop up on f29. If you keep an eye out, you could snag one for sure.

They are still in stock in SeriousWatches dot com webstore, I think. But ofc it is pricier to buy at full msrp, compared to second-hand.

- - - Updated - - -

Hard to say. Some might pop up on f29. If you keep an eye out, you could snag one for sure.

They are still in stock in SeriousWatches dot com webstore, I think. But ofc it is pricier to buy at full msrp, compared to second-hand.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

winstoda said:


> Watch Gecko. No fiddling required but you do need the additional endlinks they sell. I bought both the generic and submariner ones... One fits and one doesn't. Unfortunately they arrived unlabeled so no idea which is which. Luckily they're cheap to grab both...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


Ok thanks great  think I'll get one in the future. Will look great on my fixie I think. Its a nice vintagy look


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Aaannnndddd...my Helson Sharkmaster 300 is now sold.

Still two Acionnas (black and white), a Cerberus (gray and red) and the blue/orange Orthos left.

I'll consider reasonable offers.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

winstoda said:


> Watch Gecko. No fiddling required but you do need the additional endlinks they sell. I bought both the generic and submariner ones... One fits and one doesn't. Unfortunately they arrived unlabeled so no idea which is which. Luckily they're cheap to grab both...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


Probably the sub end links, I have had 2 different 'made for sub' bracelets that fit the c4th perfectly.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Ain't nobody got time for time!!! Just a Man, a watch, some Whisky, and the vastness of this lovely lake.

I hope all is having a great Sunday. If anyone is near the Bancroft area of Ontario, Canada come on over for a drink, and a great view.

Slàinte mhaith









Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ojibway Bob said:


> Ain't nobody got time for time!!! Just a Man, a watch, some Whisky, and the vastness of this lovely lake.
> 
> I hope all is having a great Sunday. If anyone is near the Bancroft area of Ontario, Canada come on over for a drink, and a great view.
> 
> ...


Make mine a double - need a livener after the drunk-in-gutter sesh the other night..........

Slàinte indeed,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

On the seventh day the NTH Scorpene Blue was created. And there was much lume.









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

I bid on a Riccardo on e-bay, albeit unsuccessfully. I still think they are a great looking watch! Congrats on the unfettered success, and best of luck on the future endeavors!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

yankeexpress said:


>


Almost twinning with my 2:









Doc Savage


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Mediocre said:


> I bid on a Riccardo on e-bay, albeit unsuccessfully. I still think they are a great looking watch! Congrats on the unfettered success, and best of luck on the future endeavors!


Cheers, mate, for that, and for not extending the time-travel debate.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Barracuda today for me.










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Cheers, mate, for that, and for not extending the time-travel debate.


Time travel..... Wtf is with all that noise. Darkness shall prevail...

I am Jack's on and off light switch.









Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Looks good, even under extreme close up:









Doc Savage


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ojibway Bob said:


> Time travel..... Wtf is with all that noise. Darkness shall prevail...
> 
> I am Jack's on and off light switch.
> 
> ...


So you're Jack's liver in the BSH thread and a Jack off over here?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Jtragic said:


> So you're Jack's liver in the BSH thread and a Jack off over here?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Burn!

Doc Savage


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Jtragic said:


> So you're Jack's liver in the BSH thread and a Jack off over here?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You found Jack's pleasure spot.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)




----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

My Nacken with me for a quick trip to see some Redwoods before heading back to the East Coast.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Still sporting my L&H Orthos. Love this dial!!!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> Looks good, even under extreme close up:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Woah! This close and I'm starting to see Chris Vail nose hairs! Maybe too close...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

 Just because.


----------



## helot (Jun 27, 2018)

Two week vacation. One watch. Shark infested waters ...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

That Tiburon looks great :-!


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

edited: because people know more about physics than i do


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

17 hours without a post? That can't be allowed to continue.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Not much news 

Unless doc wants to officially reveal that the followup to the Subs series will be the "Dubs" series. Then we can have all the arguments about Subs vs. Dubs.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

That, and the tilting post in my pic.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hey doc, the updated bracelet/clasp on Subs, is the clasp the same as the new watchgecko heavy clasp? (https://www.watchgecko.com/solid-shaldon-by-geckota.php)

















If yes, fair warning:

I bought that WG prototype clasp/bracelet, just got it, and the clasp feels solid, _but it's also a right b**ch to open_. There's no pushers (friction lock), the sides are slippery, and the end edge of the clasp is fat, rounded, and close to the links, AND obstructed by the little safety flap when the little safety flap is opened (which it has to be to open the clasp...).

In other words, it's very VERY tricky to open, especially if one does not have long and strong needle-nails. You might want to check that the new Subs won't have this exact same issue.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hey doc, the updated bracelet/clasp on Subs, is the clasp the same as the new watchgecko heavy clasp? (https://www.watchgecko.com/solid-shaldon-by-geckota.php)
> 
> View attachment 13392507
> 
> ...


It's not the same clasp.

Look, pushers:

















I got this. I didn't fly to China just to come up short on a clasp.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> It's not the same clasp.
> 
> Look, pushers:
> 
> ...


Sweet!

Doc Savage


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Sweet!
> 
> Doc Savage


I think so.

That side-by-side pic is a sample from the clasp supplier, next to our old clasp.

I compulsively keep my fingernails short, but even I don't have any trouble getting the flip-catch open, and the button-catch mechanism seems very robust.

The old clasps worked well enough, and no one ever complained about them on the Acionna, Cerberus or Orthos. I thought they were fine, and I thought everyone agreed. We actually had some compliments on them. Not many, but some, and I don't remember any complaints before the Subs.

I've had a handful of people report friction pins breaking on them, typically after a couple of years of ownership, but otherwise, the only complaints I've heard about them is that they're just not "wow" inducing, or they're a bit of a letdown, but that's not really very useful as constructive criticism.

The nice thing about the old clasps was that they were fairly compact generally, but fairly thin, specifically.

My goals in sourcing a new clasp were thus:

1. Better-made all-around, to reduce the likelihood of failure, no matter how small the failure rate was on the old one (I think it was one in 300, or 0.333%).

2. Looking/feeling higher quality - whatever that looks like. In this case, it looks like a more streamlined flip-catch, nicely chamfered top edges, and better button action.

3. Not appreciably longer/thicker than the original clasp, to avoid "big buckle" complaints, like the ones we've had about the clasps on the Tropics and DevilRays.

Getting more micro-adjustment positions on the new clasp wasn't something I was necessarily looking for, but they're nice to have.

I think we got the clasp we were looking for, without any compromises. It works well, looks nicer, feels better, is no longer overall, and only 0.1mm thicker than the old one.

Not really a complaint from me, but it is a more expensive clasp than the old one, so it's part of the reason we had to raise prices with this next batch of Subs.

Not looking to open a can of worms, but I am keenly aware of people's perceptions about what to expect at any given price. Sometimes those expectations just aren't realistic. Sometimes people don't seem able to appreciate "the whole package".

They'll complain about the movement, or the clasp, or this, or that, but not realize that if you want it all, you have to pay for it. I can get you a nicer this, but only if you're willing to accept a not-as-nice that. I'd rather give you a nice-enough-for-the-price this and that, but it's hard to demonstrate what that looks like in online pics and a list of specs/components.

With every watch we've produced, it was always as "nice" as we could make it for the price we were charging, and sold about as cheaply as we could afford to sell it. A lot of folks don't realize my price on the 9015 movements went up - by a lot - after we'd already set and announced the price on the Subs. We've been holding that price for 2 years, as our costs have continued to go up.

As I've said many times, we hit the point where there's really nothing we can do to improve quality without increasing prices. I thought it was worth addressing those complaints about the bracelet and clasp which we had heard most frequently. I hope people can accept the price increase, and think the new bracelet and clasp help justify it.

Beyond the new clasp and bracelet, I don't foresee making many, if any changes to the Subs in the future, and I think most new models will be very similar in terms of specs, quality and price.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I think so.
> 
> That side-by-side pic is a sample from the clasp supplier, next to our old clasp.
> 
> ...


Wall-O-Text to say you got a grasp on the clasp!! Love it!! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> Wall-O-Text to say you got a grasp on the clasp!! Love it!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Next time I see you ahma beat you with a wall of text...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Switch to Azores








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Ah, thank god. Very glad to see that the new Subs' clasp is a proper thing. Cheers doc.

- - - Updated - - -

Ah, thank god. Very glad to see that the new Subs' clasp is a proper thing. Cheers doc.


----------



## Pchandrasekar (Jul 30, 2018)

Doc - could you also include additional Nackens - Modern Black, No Date in the upcoming Sept order? Thanks.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pchandrasekar said:


> Doc - could you also include additional Nackens - Modern Black, No Date in the upcoming Sept order? Thanks.


We may make more in the future, but not as part of this production.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Regarding the updated bracelet/buckle, do you intend to offer it seperately as well like the Acionna bracelet ?

- - - Updated - - -

Regarding the updated bracelet/buckle, do you intend to offer it seperately as well like the Acionna bracelet ?


----------



## Pchandrasekar (Jul 30, 2018)

docvail said:


> Pchandrasekar said:
> 
> 
> > Doc - could you also include additional Nackens - Modern Black, No Date in the upcoming Sept order? Thanks.
> ...


Thanks Doc. That's unfortunate. Based on the number of folks currently looking for a modern black on this forum and others, I'd bet you'd sell quite a few of them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Seikogi said:


> Regarding the updated bracelet/buckle, do you intend to offer it seperately as well like the Acionna bracelet ?


I may have a few for sale at some point.

I had bracelets for sale because I ordered extras, and didn't sell very many, which is why I still have those bracelets for sale.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pchandrasekar said:


> Thanks Doc. That's unfortunate. Based on the number of folks currently looking for a modern black on this forum and others, I'd bet you'd sell quite a few of them.


Selling quite a few would be unfortunate, as I'd have to make 50 of each version (50 date, 50 no-date), and I'd want to sell them *ALL,* not just quite a few.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, I get people asking me when we'll make various models again - the Barracudas, the Scorpene, the Nackens, etc. I can't make 50-100 pieces just to please a half dozen guys who missed out on the first, second, or in some cases, third run, or who just found out about them after they sold out.

There's always the used market - https://www.watchrecon.com/?brand=nth.

Because I have MOQs to contend with (500 cases, 300 bracelets, 50 dials per date/no-date version, etc), and it's not good to have too much inventory of any model, I have to be careful about which models we make, how many of each, and how often.

Some of the models/versions people ask me about weren't wildly popular when we made them. I can't wantonly make more. Making something completely different is actually a much easier business case for me to make.

There are probably 50-100 guys out there who'd buy a Skipjack or Bahia. Are there 50-100 guys who'd buy one of the older models, after we've already sold 50-100, maybe not that quickly?

For those of you who have them, and are thinking of selling them used - price accordingly. You're leaving money on the table if you don't. Most of the Subs I see on WatchRecon are selling for north of $500, and some are getting $600.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Someone say Skipjack???!

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

That's a mad decent disclaimer from you Doc. To suggest the secondary market, and then provide advice to price accordingly, tip of the hat. Along that line, and necro'ing an old topic, some big brands are dipping their toes into the secondary market- is that something you have/would consider? Along the lines of, a buyback program for your watches counting as a credit to a new watch (maybe even preferential placement on a pre-order), so you could sell the same watch twice?

Just spit-balling. Your level of communication is mighty impressive.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RuggerAl said:


> That's a mad decent disclaimer from you Doc. To suggest the secondary market, and then provide advice to price accordingly, tip of the hat. Along that line, and necro'ing an old topic, some big brands are dipping their toes into the secondary market- is that something you have/would consider? Along the lines of, a buyback program for your watches counting as a credit to a new watch (maybe even preferential placement on a pre-order), so you could sell the same watch twice?
> 
> Just spit-balling. Your level of communication is mighty impressive.


Cheers.

TL; DR - getting involved with buying/selling used isn't something my business is set up to do in its current form.

I recall the recent bit of news about some big name (was it Richemont?) getting into the used market by buying up some existing used marketplace site, or some such.

I seem to recall speculation that it was a move intended to give them ready access to a proprietary gray market channel, for the sake of moving unsold NEW models, rather than any real apparent interest in the secondary market.

Either way, consider the used car market, specifically used car dealers. With very rare exceptions, you'd get more for your car selling it privately than trading it in or just straight up selling it to a dealer.

I imagine it being somewhat like the risk of "adverse selection" in insurance. Folks who know what their watch is worth want to sell it for as much, and most wouldn't like the offer a dealer would make them, so the core customers would be who, then?

Guys looking to offload watches no one bought on f29 or eBay? Guys who don't understand that the business can't pay full market value for a used watch if it's going to make a profit on the sale? Guys who are overall clueless, a group likely to go online and complain publicly about how the business ripped them off, or tried to? Guys who aren't clueless, know what the watch is worth, and yet are willing to accept less for the sake of convenience, or because they suck at selling used?

Only that last group seems like a good fit for the proposed business, and yet the proposed business would have to contend with all those groups in order to find the good opportunities.

The used market is tricky. Every time I see people discuss resale values, I want to scream about how truly awful so many sales listings are - bad or no photos, no description of condition, way-off pricing, silly terms, etc. People blame the manufacturer when they're disappointed in the used price they get, never themselves for botching the effort (if you can call what they do an "effort").

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

IIRC, someone mentioned the scarcity of QR bracelets. Or I might be far out in the woods... Anyway, I just saw a watch presentation from Long Island Watch of a model from Melbourne Watch Company that has QR bracelet. 
Just so you know they are out there (because I didn't).

4:08 to get right down to business 





Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



aicolainen said:


> IIRC, someone mentioned the scarcity of QR bracelets. Or I might be far out in the woods... Anyway, I just saw a watch presentation from Long Island Watch of a model from Melbourne Watch Company that has QR bracelet.
> Just so you know they are out there (because I didn't).
> 
> 4:08 to get right down to business
> ...


Interesting. Good on Sujain. Just to put this into perspective, the Sorrento is $690-$715. The new NTH Subs are $625-$650.

Sujain's my mate, and the Sorrento is an awesome design, with many great features, but so are the Subs, and I reckon our unit costs are about the same.

Well after discussion about it seemed to taper off, it occurred to me that the topic of quick-release bars was prompted by someone saying they were having trouble getting the end-links back onto their watch.

So...here's the thing - quick release bars aren't the fix for that.

I'm not saying QR bars are pointless. They're not, and I may look into them at some point.

But the issue with a spring-bar not seating into the lug holes easily/correctly isn't because the spring-bar isn't a quick-release. One has nothing to do with the other.

The difficulty getting bar-ends into lug-holes would be the same regardless of whether or not the bars are quick release. That difficulty comes from all the causes I laid out previously - lug-hole location and alignment, tight fitment of end-links, possibly bent bars, etc.

QR bars are a nice-to-have, certainly, but...again, how much more are people willing to pay to have them? I'm already under-charging for what we sell (by about $50 per unit), so I'm not looking to add more costs, and I'm certain the QR bars would add some.

Even if it's just a few dollars per watch - we're making 1,000 watches per year now, and ramping up to more. It adds up.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



aicolainen said:


> IIRC, someone mentioned the scarcity of QR bracelets. Or I might be far out in the woods... Anyway, I just saw a watch presentation from Long Island Watch of a model from Melbourne Watch Company that has QR bracelet.
> Just so you know they are out there (because I didn't).
> 
> 4:08 to get right down to business
> ...


That was me. Another one that has a QR bracelet is the new Ming GMT. Interestingly, Ming also put two sets of spring bar holes in their lugs - one for their bracelet and fitted straps with curved bars, and a "universal" one for third party straps with standard straight bars. They are out there (the Lacroix Genta homage also has them) just extremely rare. As to how much (if anything) people would be willing to pay extra for them, no idea. _I'd_ be happy to pay an extra $25 or whatever for a bracelet with QR, because that's the only way I'd wear the bracelet at all. The first thing I do when I get a new watch is take the bracelet off and put it in the box, and never take it out. Being able to swap between leather and the bracelet whenever I want instead of having to spend 5 minutes fiddling with my Bergeon tool to get the damn thing off (and risk scratching it) means I have no interest in spending another 5 minutes trying to get it back on (and risk scratching it again).

The Ming has QR pins on both sides, and I would imagine this would make it as easy as humanly possible to get the bracelet on or off. My Chris Ward straps only have the pin on one side like pretty much all QR straps, which isn't a problem because you can squeeze the leather a bit and then angle it in. Obviously you can't squeeze a solid endlink. Being able to put it straight in though with both ends of the bar retracted, and then just wiggle it around a bit until the bar snaps into place should be a piece of cake.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I like the Sorrento for the most part, particularly the bezel design with that really cool wave style texture on it. I would've preferred a bigger marker at 12 though, maybe a traditional triangle or diamond shape marker there instead of the double dots which I think look kind of undersized when compared to the big stick markers at 3, 6, and 9. My main issue though is that it's SUCH a FAT BASTARD. 14mm thick for 200m WR? Bueller?

- - - Updated - - -

I like the Sorrento for the most part, particularly the bezel design with that really cool wave style texture on it. I would've preferred a bigger marker at 12 though, maybe a traditional triangle or diamond shape marker there instead of the double dots which I think look kind of undersized when compared to the big stick markers at 3, 6, and 9. My main issue though is that it's SUCH a FAT BASTARD. 14mm thick for 200m WR? Bueller?


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*


----------



## SKrishnan (Dec 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> I like the Sorrento for the most part, particularly the bezel design with that really cool wave style texture on it. I would've preferred a bigger marker at 12 though, maybe a traditional triangle or diamond shape marker there instead of the double dots which I think look kind of undersized when compared to the big stick markers at 3, 6, and 9. My main issue though is that it's SUCH a FAT BASTARD. 14mm thick for 200m WR? Bueller?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> I like the Sorrento for the most part, particularly the bezel design with that really cool wave style texture on it. I would've preferred a bigger marker at 12 though, maybe a traditional triangle or diamond shape marker there instead of the double dots which I think look kind of undersized when compared to the big stick markers at 3, 6, and 9. My main issue though is that it's SUCH a FAT BASTARD. 14mm thick for 200m WR? Bueller?


We are going to make the next version about 1.5mm thinner, and change to an SW200 movement

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



SKrishnan said:


> We are going to make the next version about 1.5mm thinner, and change to an SW200 movement
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice!! 12.5mm is much more like it. I'll definitely be curious to see how the new version turns out.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Insane deal on an Orange DevilRay with date listed on Facebook (not mine) - https://www.facebook.com/groups/Div...55246294503650/?sale_post_id=2255246294503650

UK seller asking $470 (£370). Add ~$70 for DHL shipping outside the UK.


----------



## Trango (Mar 1, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I may have a few for sale at some point.
> 
> I had bracelets for sale because I ordered extras, and didn't sell very many, which is why I still have those bracelets for sale.


I would be happy to pay in advance for one (love my first run vintage black). Hopefully there may be enough others to do the same that it would be worth your time. Thanks!


----------



## Solace (Jun 3, 2018)

Fiancee saw the Devilray. Now she wants the blue dial, and now I'm not sure if I should look for one of those or wait for the Nazario Sauro, lol. 

Thought process here: She's an art education major, the Nazario Sauro has all primary colors when you include blue hands and blue lume. 40mm would fit well, might be her ideal size. California dial is interesting, and she was born there.

But! Devilray has primary colors too, and more prominent. Green lume, she prefers blue. 43 mm-ish case is a bit bigger, but she has a watch that size that she wears and enjoys. 

She has seen both, but directly said "I want that" to the Devilray.

What to do? 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Get her what she wants. ESPECIALLY if she has explicitly stated that she wants the devilray.

- - - Updated - - -

Get her what she wants. ESPECIALLY if she has explicitly stated that she wants the devilray.


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Get her what she wants. ESPECIALLY if she has explicitly stated that she wants the devilray.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Get her what she wants. ESPECIALLY if she has explicitly stated that she wants the devilray.


This. On sooo many levels 

Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Solace said:


> Fiancee saw the Devilray. Now she wants the blue dial, and now I'm not sure if I should look for one of those or wait for the Nazario Sauro, lol.
> 
> Thought process here: She's an art education major, the Nazario Sauro has all primary colors when you include blue hands and blue lume. 40mm would fit well, might be her ideal size. California dial is interesting, and she was born there.
> 
> ...


Why do you even need to ask us?...... I mean I know yes means no and no means yes every now and then with women, and its impossible to know when. But in this case it's pretty clear isn't it..?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Solace said:


> Fiancee saw the Devilray. Now she wants the blue dial, and now I'm not sure if I should look for one of those or wait for the Nazario Sauro, lol.
> 
> Thought process here: She's an art education major, the Nazario Sauro has all primary colors when you include blue hands and blue lume. 40mm would fit well, might be her ideal size. California dial is interesting, and she was born there.
> 
> ...


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Trango said:


> I would be happy to pay in advance for one (love my first run vintage black). Hopefully there may be enough others to do the same that it would be worth your time. Thanks!


+1


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't want to take people's money for bracelets before we have them in. 

Let me get them in, I'll add them to the site, it'll be first-come, first-serve, no pre-orders if I can avoid them at all. 

Just gonna have to be patient, gents. 

Sorry.


----------



## Solace (Jun 3, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

So true, I can have the best intentions, but when she's clear on what she wants just take her word for it and go for what she wants.


Wimads said:


> Why do you even need to ask us?...... I mean I know yes means no and no means yes every now and then with women, and its impossible to know when. But in this case it's pretty clear isn't it..?


Haha, exactly. Why make it complicated when she hasn't?

And Doc- I like your logic and definitely would go for both if I could, and maybe I'll grab a secondhand one.

Admittedly maybe I have been leaning towards to Nazario Sauro because I'd get to wear it occasionally lol


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Barracuda on the beach. I really dig the sunburst dial.









Doc Savage


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Solace said:


> She has seen both, but directly said "I want that" to the Devilray.
> 
> What to do?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


You just answered your own question right there.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Solace said:


> So true, I can have the best intentions, but when she's clear on what she wants just take her word for it and go for what she wants.Haha, exactly. Why make it complicated when she hasn't?
> 
> And Doc- I like your logic and definitely would go for both if I could, and maybe I'll grab a secondhand one.
> 
> Admittedly maybe I have been leaning towards to Nazario Sauro because I'd get to wear it occasionally lol


FYI, if she wants the black dial version, although we're sold out of it, I know SeriousWatches still has the no-date version, and it looks like Watch Wonderland in Singapore still has both versions, plus their "DevilFox" LE.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I just got the Nacken Renegade and it's .... certainly visually interesting. I really like it but will have to wait till daylight to take pictures.

- - - Updated - - -

I just got the Nacken Renegade and it's .... certainly visually interesting. I really like it but will have to wait till daylight to take pictures.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

This hobby is a sickness, for real.

I was just in the BSHT thread, where Fullers posted a pic of the "Santa Flake" out on the BSHT tour. It's called that because we married a prototype Santa Fe dial to a set of enamel-black snowflake hands.

I'm looking at it and thinking, "I like snowflake hands, but I like them better with the square/rectangle markers of the Pelagos than I do with the circle/rectangle markers of the Subs and Black Bays."

Then all of a sudden I find myself thinking, "I wouldn't mind owning a Pelagos, just to see if it feels any different. I wonder what a used one costs, and how big they are. Why do I think they're 43mm? Here's a WatchRecon listing that says it's 42mm. What's the Tudor website say?"

Over to the Tudor website...

"Ugh, that blue Pelagos is way too bright. If I got one, it would have to be the black, definitely. $4400 new??? Outrageous. What are the used ones going for? $3k? C'mon. What about the ones with the ETA movements, before they went 'in-house'? Eff me, they're $3k too? Outrageous. That's insane."

"Well, it's a good thing I've got my Näcken Modern Black...[turning to look at my open case]...damn, I just sold it last week."

Hopefully the Näcken Vintage Blue, Vintage Black, Modern Blue, and Renegade I kept will be enough. I mean, it's 4 Näckens. What sort of loon needs 5?

Seriously, this isn't a new thing. When a blogger had my Scorpène prototype for a while, I started looking for Sinn 857's on WatchRecon, and looking at mod parts.

I just sold both my Orthos Commander 300 and my Helson Sharkmaster 300. Anyone want to start a betting pool for how long it'll be before I start getting the Seamaster 300 itch again?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Geebus.

Someone, anyone, please buy the Sinn 857 for sale on f29 for $1k. That's $500 less than they usually go for.

Don't even get me started on all the $2k Omega SMP 2254.50's on there.

Seriously, I'm begging. I just sold 8 watches, and the money's supposed to pay for a family vacation next year, so I need people to buy this stuff so I'm not tempted.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Geebus.
> 
> Someone, anyone, please buy the Sinn 857 for sale on f29 for $1k. That's $500 less than they usually go for.
> 
> ...


Man, he's been trying to move that Sinn for a long time. The cash or check requirement probably keeping folks away. If I was stocking up the collection versus liquidating I'd be all over that one!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

It's four years old. Who knows what it's been up to?

Yeah, the cash or check requirement is a major negative. It's as if he really doesn't want to sell it. Oh wait...

- - - Updated - - -

It's four years old. Who knows what it's been up to?

Yeah, the cash or check requirement is a major negative. It's as if he really doesn't want to sell it. Oh wait...


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Seriously, this isn't a new thing. When a blogger had my Scorpène prototype for a while, I started looking for Sinn 857's on WatchRecon, and looking at mod parts.
> 
> I just sold both my Orthos Commander 300 and my Helson Sharkmaster 300. Anyone want to start a betting pool for how long it'll be before I start getting the Seamaster 300 itch again?


So you were thinking about modding a watch. Yet you don't like it when people mod your watches?


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

I'm really digging the The Bahia. Is it an interpretation of the Heuer Professional 884 series? Either way, I've been itching for a NTH since I sold mine last year, and this might be the one...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> This hobby is a sickness, for real.
> 
> I was just in the BSHT thread, where Fullers posted a pic of the "Santa Flake" out on the BSHT tour. It's called that because we married a prototype Santa Fe dial to a set of enamel-black snowflake hands.
> 
> ...


No kidding. Speaking of the BHST thread, when I saw there were still some Carolinas available for pre-order awhile back, I had to keep a firm hand on my wallet to keep it closed. "OOooo a gilt relief dial, like a MKII without the insane price tag." "Come on, you've had watches without applied markers before, and you always end up selling them." "Yeah but never THIS kind of dial!" "Stop it, this is $650 that you could put towards the gilt dial OK, and you don't need TWO black/gilt dial 300M dive watches." "Don't I though? Don't I?"

The blue Pelagos is WAY too saturated, and I can't stand the paragraph of text on the bottom, they ruined it. The two-line black ETA Pelagos is the one, though honestly I think the Pelagos line in general is kind of dull. I get that it's supposed to be a "tool" watch without any sort of flash, and the way the hour markers cut into the chapter ring is cool, but I'm just not feeling it for that kind of money. The BB 58 is the looker of the bunch IMO.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Geebus.
> 
> Someone, anyone, please buy the Sinn 857 for sale on f29 for $1k. That's $500 less than they usually go for.
> 
> ...


If it helps at all with the Omegas, scratch that very scratchable bezel insert, and you're stuck with it. Omega does not sell insert replacements, you'd have to buy an entirely new bezel for like $500. For awhile I was considering doing an "electric Bond" mod (Bond SMP bezel on the 2255.80 electric blue) but the cost of getting a bezel for it and the vulnerability of said bezel put a stop to that. It does look cool though.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Doc, you may need to pop over into the WPAC thread 

I get what you're saying about a sickness. That little thought of "I could get THAT WATCH, which has this one tiny thing slightly better" is very seductive, and somehow ignorant of any pricing issues. 

The only way to combat it is to forcefully remind yourself that "THAT WATCH" will have that one thing slightly better, but still not the best, and it will have some other things slightly worse, which will push the next round of "oooh but if I could get THAT OTHER WATCH"...


Until you make the perfect watch that is THEBESTEVR at EVERYTHING, there's no way to avoid this.


Also, you know how swiss movements are. A 4-year-old swiss movement with complications in a used watch and no record of being serviced? I'd pass. Seiko, miyota - sure. But not swiss.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Nikita70 said:


> So you were thinking about modding a watch. Yet you don't like it when people mod your watches?


I was thinking of modding a <$200 Seiko. It's a wee bit different.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

smkader said:


> I'm really digging the The Bahia. Is it an interpretation of the Heuer Professional 884 series? Either way, I've been itching for a NTH since I sold mine last year, and this might be the one...
> 
> View attachment 13399759


It's a mashup of that Heuer and Tudor.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Doc, you may need to pop over into the WPAC thread
> 
> I get what you're saying about a sickness. That little thought of "I could get THAT WATCH, which has this one tiny thing slightly better" is very seductive, and somehow ignorant of any pricing issues.
> 
> ...


Indeed.

The 43mm case and Sellita movement are a buzz kill on the 857. There's also an even more rare 41mm 657 for sale, but I hate the date window on that one.

The 41mm SMP is sweet, and the date looks fine, but the stupid helium release valve at 10 drives me bananas, and I've seen very well how scratchable those bezels are.

I'd love a 42mm Planet Ocean 2500, but they have the date window taking out the 3, which upsets the dial symmetry, the stupid HE valve, and the scratchable bezel.

Something about a $2k tool watch with an aluminum bezel insert makes me want to beat the snot out of a Swiss watch brand exec.

Ah well, good thing I still have the...wait a sec...phew, just checked my case, still two Scorpènes in there, black and blue. Now I'll just have to see about making a better SMP.

If only we could get orange PVD, that'd be REALLY sweet.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Or develop a naturally orange alloy of stainless steel. With infinite Vickers.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Or develop a naturally orange alloy of stainless steel. With infinite Vickers.


Corten steel bezel. Its naturally orange, already rusted to dust, so no need for infinite vickers.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orthos ii mod today....








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I like how the light shifts. Sometimes blue, sometimes grey and sometimes something else. 

This is a very creative watch design and Doc should be justifiably proud of this version. 

I am looking forward to the Skipjack myself.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

I don't think these get the love the deserve


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Now I'll just have to see about making a better SMP.
> 
> If only we could get orange PVD, that'd be REALLY sweet.


You could always try a bronze/brass bezel insert like the one on Brad's Stowa. It looks great with his blue dial version.

In the mean time I am happy with this one.........


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Geebus.
> 
> Someone, anyone, please buy the Sinn 857 for sale on f29 for $1k. That's $500 less than they usually go for.
> 
> ...


I had a Sinn. Very nice (hang on, here it comes) but I didn't like the bracelet and the clasp. Thought you'd need to hear that. Just goes to show, no matter how well something is constructed, someone isn't going to like it...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeCfromLI said:


> I don't think these get the love the deserve


I agree! I wear mine quite a bit, but I have a Sub, a C300, a Ghost Rider and others that need worn....


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

Santa Fe on rubber...


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

househalfman said:


> Santa Fe on rubber...


Very nice. It will be well protected on that. ;-)


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> I agree! I wear mine quite a bit, but I have a Sub, a C300, a Ghost Rider and others that need worn....
> 
> 
> 
> ...












Similar nth collection


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



househalfman said:


> Santa Fe on rubber...


Screw the crown in.

C'mon...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Good lume.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Screw the crown in.
> 
> C'mon...


TWSS!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nashville.










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Devil Ray today








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Burst'n root beer all over


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

One of these is getting sold soon...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Tough call: stadium bezel and cutout indices or fully lumed dial and higher beat movement. I give the edge to the Santa Fe because of the awesome quirkiness of the dial (texture, fully lumed), modestly superior movement (practically speaking), and thinner profile. I liked my own Retrospect but I just really prefer especially thin cases, and I’m not the biggest fan of the cutout-indices look. For what it’s worth . . .


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



househalfman said:


> One of these is getting sold soon...


Those are both cool watches. Tough choice.

Doc Savage


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

Love the retro, just wish it’s 1mm smaller (in all aspects). It’s also very similar aesthetically to the Santa Fe. I can justify having both actually, but I think I’d rather trade the retro to another variant, maybe the industrial brown. 

Love the Santa Fe and I think it’ll be on this rubber most of the time.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

First time buyer. The renegade should be here soon.

I think a bronze variant with a burst brown dial, gold accent, on a leather band would be great. Like a heritage.

- - - Updated - - -

First time buyer. The renegade should be here soon.

I think a bronze variant with a burst brown dial, gold accent, on a leather band would be great. Like a heritage.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



tim_herremans said:


> First time buyer. The renegade should be here soon.
> 
> I think a bronze variant with a burst brown dial, gold accent, on a leather band would be great. Like a heritage.


Welcome. Thanks for buying a Renegade.

No plans to do bronze, or offer it on a band that isn't a bracelet.

Brown sunburst dial and gold accents - that's the Barracuda.









By "like a heritage", I assume you mean the Tudor bronze model.

We're not looking to do 1:1 remakes of current models. The theme here is vintage inspiration, not modern reincarnation.


----------



## OhDark30 (Oct 2, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> View attachment 13406565


Pretty
In the best possible way


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



OhDark30 said:


> Pretty
> In the best possible way


Cheers, Kath.

Didn't think I'd like a brown-dialed watch, nor gilt accents for that matter, but it's become one of my personal faves in the collection.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I shouldn't *hate* the Barracuda, but OTOH I shouldn't *love* it either.

But I do.

It's a very clever watch. Sly, even. It takes classic honky-tonk root-beer tropes, mashes them up with a very elegantly-proportioned sub, and then does something totally different in of, and of, itself.

Appreciate that sounds nonsense, you'd have to strap one on to find out why.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



househalfman said:


> One of these is getting sold soon...


Tough call. I prefer the thinner bezel on the Nodus, and the sandwich dial is cool. I am not a fan of steel hands on white dials though - they should've done black. For a second there I thought they were gilt hands which would've been a horrible choice until I realized it was a trick of the light. If it were me, I'd keep the Nodus and put different hands in it. Seiko compatible black hands are a dime a dozen, but the length might be a problem as all of the 3rd party ones are typically made for the 28.2mm Seiko diver dial size, and I would guess that dial is probably more like 30mm. Don't want to end up with something that looks like an early Bond SMP with its baby hands.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Welcome. Thanks for buying a Renegade.
> 
> No plans to do bronze, or offer it on a band that isn't a bracelet.
> 
> ...


Ahh yes, I agree! One of the reasons that lead to my choice of NTH, quality aside, was that these are not direct clones. I never kept interest in some makers who chose to go this route. IMO, one of the better qualities of the Renegade, is that it had an original vibe to it that I kept going back to. I mention heritage as a nod to the bronze model done by Tudor. Which is very tasteful. The brown barracuda is lovely. To my eyes, the brown dials and or bezels, allow the gold or gilt, to shine in a subtle casual way.
As I am new to world of watch enthusiasm.. this will be my first automatic and I am wholly looking forward to it.
Cheers.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Cheers, Kath.
> 
> Didn't think I'd like a brown-dialed watch, nor gilt accents for that matter, but it's become one of my personal faves in the collection.


Anyone who hasn't seen a Barracuda in person owes to themselves to see one. It's really one of my favorites. I've thought of selling it when it sits in my watch drawer, but when I put it on, the thought races out of my mind like a young wife.....it isn't going to happen.

I have a Näcken and the Barracuda and they both get wrist time, even they're so similar.

Love it.

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## jbg7474 (Sep 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> Now I'll just have to see about making a better SMP.


If you could reproduce the bracelet on the 2254.50, that would really be something. I tried a friend's once and was amazed by how great the bracelet felt.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

jbg7474 said:


> If you could reproduce the bracelet on the 2254.50, that would really be something. I tried a friend's once and was amazed by how great the bracelet felt.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My 2220.80 is awesome bracelet may be the same


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeCfromLI said:


> My 2220.80 is awesome bracelet may be the same


It's completely different.

The 2254.50 had the Speedmaster style bracelet.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Doc,

Is there any way could do some kind of different bracelet for your upcoming models? I'm thinking specifically the Skip Jack would look good with one of those Omega style bracelets.

Doc Savage


----------



## andione1983 (Oct 1, 2010)

Anyone got the Nth nacken? I'm seriously considering one of them and think IMO they look one of the nicest looking dive watch faces out there. Does anyone have one with some real life pics or YouTube links?









Sent from my Mi Note 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

andione1983 said:


> Anyone got the Nth nacken? I'm seriously considering one of them and think IMO they look one of the nicest looking dive watch faces out there. Does anyone have one with some real life pics or YouTube links?
> Sent from my Mi Note 3 using Tapatalk


Start scrolling backwards in this thread. There's quite a few real life pics


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

MikeCfromLI said:


> I don't think these get the love the deserve


Agreed.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Doc,
> 
> Is there any way could do some kind of different bracelet for your upcoming models? I'm thinking specifically the Skip Jack would look good with one of those Omega style bracelets.
> 
> Doc Savage


No.

All the bracelets are already in production. We've got a 300-piece MOQ on bracelets. We're not doing any different this or different that for this model or that model.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

andione1983 said:


> Anyone got the Nth nacken? I'm seriously considering one of them and think IMO they look one of the nicest looking dive watch faces out there. Does anyone have one with some real life pics or YouTube links?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)




----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Nack-jerk reaction in posting these 









Doc Savage


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

I so can't wait for my Näcken Modern Blue. Ordered two months ago, two more to go until it's being shipped.

Never waited so long for a watch.

Keep those pics comin'!


----------



## andione1983 (Oct 1, 2010)

Thanks guys ️

Sent from my Mi Note 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

The color shifting that the Renegade does is pretty remarkable. My Aevig and Evant both change their shade of blue quite a bit depending on the light, but they are always some sort of blue, never gray.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I love this damn thing.









Has anyone ever tried to pull off a beads of rice with it and might be able to share some pics? I imagine straight end links would look awkward, and I don't know whether there's any curved BOR end links out there that would look ok (even if not perfect) with the DR.


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

Recently swapped the bracelet out on my Devil Ray for the rubber strap. I really like the look, it is definitely different from the bracelet. Not sure why there appears to be so much difference in color between dial and strap in the photo, I don't notice much IRL.









By the way, what is the diameter of the spring bar used in the Devil Ray bracelet? I had one shoot off into the great unknown when changing to strap and the ones I have on hand are thinner.


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

docvail said:


> Now I'll just have to see about making a better SMP.


Yes, please!

My unsolicited, likely ignored suggestion: Take the Skipjack, swap the hands for swords, use the textured dial from the Amphion vintage, make the 12:00 marker bigger, and paint the end of the second hand red. That would give a ton of the 2254.50 flavor and I'd absolutely buy one.

I love the 2254.50 but >$2K for a watch with a pre-scratched bezel is tough to swallow.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bleedingblue said:


> Recently swapped the bracelet out on my Devil Ray for the rubber strap. I really like the look, it is definitely different from the bracelet. Not sure why there appears to be so much difference in color between dial and strap in the photo, I don't notice much IRL.
> 
> View attachment 13413021
> 
> ...


The strap is a different color because your monitor isn't calibrated.

From now on, all questions about colors - your monitor isn't calibrated. Calibrate your monitor. Then your camera. It's all in the calibrations.

I honestly don't know what the diameter is on the spring bars. I probably should know, but I don't, and my watchmaker is now in possession of all my spare parts, so I can't even measure one in my office.

Someone over the weekend wanted to know the length of the case, including the protuberances of the end-links. I didn't know, and wasn't home to measure, so I guessed.

I get that people sometimes want to know these sorts of things, and that the expectation of microbrands is that we're willing and able to answer all these sorts of one-off, odd-ball questions, like the crystal thickness, or radius of the underside of the lugs, but sometimes it seems a little unrealistic, or at least, unfair, as expectations go. I can't be a 24/7 online answer-machine. Some stuff, you'll have to figure out yourselves, or accept the uncertainty.

I know, I know, it's a spring-bar diameter. I should know. I don't know. It's 1.8mm, if I had to guess.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bleedingblue said:


> Yes, please!
> 
> My unsolicited, likely ignored suggestion: Take the Skipjack, swap the hands for swords, use the textured dial from the Amphion vintage, make the 12:00 marker bigger, and paint the end of the second hand red. That would give a ton of the 2254.50 flavor and I'd absolutely buy one.
> 
> I love the 2254.50 but >$2K for a watch with a pre-scratched bezel is tough to swallow.


Some of that I'd do, some I wouldn't.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I am pretty sure Doc is right that it is 1.8mm or pretty dang close.

I did the same as you and used a thinner bar. It works fine until you switch out the awesome metal bracelet. If your bar is too narrow you will find the end link will flip up when the bracelet moves a bit. It took me about 3 weeks to figure this out so make sure to grab yourself a few 1.8mm bars.



Bleedingblue said:


> Recently swapped the bracelet out on my Devil Ray for the rubber strap. I really like the look, it is definitely different from the bracelet. Not sure why there appears to be so much difference in color between dial and strap in the photo, I don't notice much IRL.
> 
> View attachment 13413021
> 
> ...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

The more I look at it, the more I think it is a very sophisticated design that looks at home in the office or on a casual weekend. I’m very pleased with the Renegade.

EDIT: And, yes, I'm aware my shirt sleeve is fraying. Time to get rid of it. 

EDIT2: I am still working my way through straps for the Renegade. I've not been satisfied with the Bartons Elite Silicone bands. There is something off about it; I'm not real happy with the QR strap and it feels very slick. Perhaps a little too slick. I ordered a Nomoon strap and it arrived just now and I realized that it's also a QR strap. I'll give it a go in a while but I think in the long run, the Renegade will look at home in the NTH Tropic strap that I have or a navy Erika's strap with white stripe.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Regarding the difficulty in doing good renders...

I've asked Rusty to re-do the 3D's on the next batch of Subs a couple times now. Part of it is just due to him being the sort of bonehead that will run renders using the old bracelet and clasp, then ask me if I really want the new bracelet/clasp in the images.

Yes, dammit.

Part of it is that I'm the sort of bonehead that notices the C3 all-lume dial of the Nacken Vintage White looks different than the C3 lume on the Skipjack, but not until after he's "done" running them all.

Here's part of the challenge - these damned colors can change a lot, even in real life, depending on the slightest change in lighting. Check this out:









That's a screen shot from my machine, just now. I've opened up two different images of the same exact watch, the Santa Fe, in order to compare the Nacken Vintage White renders.

Both of those pics were taken with the same camera, on the same day, at the same time, and in the same location (the windowsill in my office). The only difference is that the watch faces North in one, and South in the other.

Don't know if you see it, but the dial looks a little more green in one, a little more yellow-white in the other.

Now, pretend you're me. Which image do you use as your reference file? Ideally, you'd have a sample in front of you, but assume you're the sort of bonehead that sells his Santa Fe before he's done having illustrations run.

It doesn't really matter, because even if you had a sample, it's going to look different based on the light present in your office at the moment you're holding it up to your screen for comparison.

Now, see that color-selector-thingy? Rusty's program uses RGB inputs for colors. It probably seems complicated enough trying to figure out which color has the right proportion of Red, Green and Blue to match the image you choose as your reference file, but forget that, because it's even more complicated.

We also have to figure out the brightness or saturation level, which adds a fourth dimension to the color selection. You can have a set ratio of Red:Green:Blue in the color, but dial up or down the saturation, to get closer to white or closer to black.

Meanwhile, no matter what color we pick, the program is going to add light and shadow, texture, reflection, gradients, etc, to try to approximate "reality", and that "reality" is going to be a perception based on who knows how many future photographs and/or videos shot by who knows how many people using who knows how many different devices.

No matter what we do here, at some point, someone will look at our images and say they don't look like "reality".

"How hard is it to get a good, realistic illustration?"

Really. Freaking. Hard.

EDIT/PS - "Just wait until you can do photos" really isn't a solution, either.

First, doing that would either require prototypes, which we're getting away from doing, or prevent us from doing pre-orders, which is a direction we're headed in, but not quite entirely there yet.

Plus, I end up spending about as much on photography as I do on illustrations, and the illustrations often tend to be "better" at depicting the product than the professional photographs, which are just as tortured and manipulated by the time we're done with them.

How does this:









adequately represent this:









better than this?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I started following this guy @twolfsden on Instagram recently. He picked up a Nacken Modern Blue, and has posted some great pics.

I just got an email from John at Watch Gauge, with a link to a YT review he put up. Figured you guys may want to check it out. Apparently he's got a pretty sweet collection, and he does some good videos.


----------



## kirkryanm (Jan 5, 2016)

ck2k01 said:


> I love this damn thing.
> 
> View attachment 13412111
> 
> ...


Wear mine on a straight end BOR. love it.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> I started following this guy @twolfsden on Instagram recently. He picked up a Nacken Modern Blue, and has posted some great pics.
> 
> I just got an email from John at Watch Gauge, with a link to a YT review he put up. Figured you guys may want to check it out. Apparently he's got a pretty sweet collection, and he does some good videos.


A fair and balanced review, well presented by the host. Reading 'tween the lines tho', I can see that Miguel is a fellow sufferer of CRAW Syndrome...

C.R.A.W. - Can't Resist Another Watch - the only known cure is is a heavy dose of EBA.

E.B.A. - Empty Bank Account - unfortunately, this is only a temporary reprieve from the permanent condition of Craw, a fresh injection of funds will soon bring on the unstoppable effect of the Craw craving..........

Cheers fellow sufferers,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> I started following this guy @twolfsden on Instagram recently. He picked up a Nacken Modern Blue, and has posted some great pics.
> 
> I just got an email from John at Watch Gauge, with a link to a YT review he put up. Figured you guys may want to check it out. Apparently he's got a pretty sweet collection, and he does some good videos.


A fair and balanced review, well presented by the host. Reading 'tween the lines tho', I can see that Miguel is a fellow sufferer of CRAW Syndrome...

C.R.A.W. - Can't Resist Another Watch - the only known cure is is a heavy dose of EBA.

E.B.A. - Empty Bank Account - unfortunately, this is only a temporary reprieve from the permanent condition of Craw, a fresh injection of funds will soon bring on the unstoppable effect of the Craw craving..........

Cheers fellow sufferers,

Alan


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

kirkryanm said:


> Wear mine on a straight end BOR. love it. [/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180822/8249fa66262777263f8a75a67407aad3.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Awesome, you're the man. Thanks!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Ragl said:


> A fair and balanced review, well presented by the host. Reading 'tween the lines tho', I can see that Miguel is a fellow sufferer of CRAW Syndrome...
> 
> C.R.A.W. - Can't Resist Another Watch - the only known cure is is a heavy dose of EBA.
> 
> ...


Only 22 in his collection! That's cute! I guess at 60 I'm a hoarder?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I am pretty sure Doc is right that it is 1.8mm or pretty dang close.
> 
> I did the same as you and used a thinner bar. It works fine until you switch out the awesome metal bracelet. If your bar is too narrow you will find the end link will flip up when the bracelet moves a bit. It took me about 3 weeks to figure this out so make sure to grab yourself a few 1.8mm bars.


Many thanks.


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

docvail said:


> Regarding the difficulty in doing good renders...
> 
> I've asked Rusty to re-do the 3D's on the next batch of Subs a couple times now. Part of it is just due to him being the sort of bonehead that will run renders using the old bracelet and clasp, then ask me if I really want the new bracelet/clasp in the images.
> 
> ...


Monitor calibration, definitely monitor calibration.

At least that is what I heard.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Ragl said:


> A fair and balanced review, well presented by the host. Reading 'tween the lines tho', I can see that Miguel is a fellow sufferer of CRAW Syndrome...
> 
> C.R.A.W. - Can't Resist Another Watch - the only known cure is is a heavy dose of EBA.
> 
> ...


Ouhh, that sounds so familiar. 
Worst thing is I'm not really into watches. I mean it's interesting and all that, but all along I've just been looking for THE ONE. Maybe when I find it, I'll be able to sell all the others, but I'm not there yet. 
14 watches in just over a year is really too much for something I would consider a side project. CRAW is real

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Ragl said:
> 
> 
> > A fair and balanced review, well presented by the host. Reading 'tween the lines tho', I can see that Miguel is a fellow sufferer of CRAW Syndrome...
> ...


If 60 is a hoarder, then what am I???????


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Linen Hämmer









Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

GlenRoiland said:


> If 60 is a hoarder, then what am I???????


A watch collecting God!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## COZ (Sep 7, 2011)

docvail said:


> It's not the same clasp.
> 
> Look, pushers:
> 
> ...


Looks like the same clasp Nodus is using on their new Contrail piece. I like the many micro adjust holes.

https://www.noduswatches.com/contrail-product/mute-gray


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

COZ said:


> Looks like the same clasp Nodus is using on their new Contrail piece. I like the many micro adjust holes.
> 
> https://www.noduswatches.com/contrail-product/mute-gray


It could be. It's not uncommon for micros to end up sourcing components from the same downline suppliers.

Had an interesting conversation with the guys from Nodus yesterday, as a matter of fact. They're sharp cats, and committed to quality.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Renegade on NTH Tropic. Just love this.


----------



## Brekel (Sep 18, 2014)

Tanjecterly said:


> Renegade on NTH Tropic. Just love this.


Note to self: you must resist temptation!

#resitanceisfutile

Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

GlenRoiland said:


> If 60 is a hoarder, then what am I???????


Just proves the point that the CRAW craving is really unstoppable.... I think that it's contagious as well, so please step away from that keyboard now please.......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## COZ (Sep 7, 2011)

docvail said:


> It could be. It's not uncommon for micros to end up sourcing components from the same downline suppliers.
> 
> Had an interesting conversation with the guys from Nodus yesterday, as a matter of fact. They're sharp cats, and committed to quality.


Yes, I have liked what I've seen from them and owned their Trieste model. Thinking about their new Contrail along with Nth Renegade model coming up in pre-order. Pics of the Renegrade are interesting showing the dial color variation in different lighting.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

COZ said:


> Yes, I have liked what I've seen from them and owned their Trieste model. Thinking about their new Contrail along with Nth Renegade model coming up in pre-order. Pics of the Renegrade are interesting showing the dial color variation in different lighting.


In my conversation with them, we talked a little about design, specifically what they see as being integral to their developing style. I'm sure it'll be the same with them as it was with me - with each new design they are refining and distilling what they're all about.

The Contrail looks nice, like their other models have, but I'm personally most interested in seeing more of their turtle-shaped diver, the Avalon, notwithstanding its apparent similarity to the DevilRay's case shape. I suspect it'll be a blockbuster hit for them.

I don't want to tell tales out of school, but just between us girls, they've been slow to reveal too much about it because they weren't completely satisfied with the first round of prototyping, and they've since been working to get their case maker to nail the details the way they wanted, which is of course another testament to their commitment to quality in the product.

Must be nice to be young, smart, and full of pep. I have to settle for being middle-aged, haphazardly brilliant, and fueled by excess carbohydrates.


----------



## wzkwok (Oct 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> In my conversation with them, we talked a little about design, specifically what they see as being integral to their developing style. I'm sure it'll be the same with them as it was with me - with each new design they are refining and distilling what they're all about.
> 
> The Contrail looks nice, like their other models have, but I'm personally most interested in seeing more of their turtle-shaped diver, the Avalon, notwithstanding its apparent similarity to the DevilRay's case shape. I suspect it'll be a blockbuster hit for them.
> 
> ...


Was awesome catching up, Doc. Looking forward to kicking it in HK in a couple of weeks. They have tons of carbs there so you should be fine. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gazza74 (Jul 27, 2013)

Bloom said:


> Linen Hämmer
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

^^^^ The evidence is incontrovertible...... CRAW has a deeper and longer lasting effect on this particular thread......

Yikes!!!

Cheers,

Alan

P.S. - Upside - you will eventually have the most stylish and tasteful watch collection in all of WISdom.....


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Drat that double post syndrome too......


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Gazza74 said:


> Bloom said:
> 
> 
> > Linen Hämmer
> ...


----------



## Gazza74 (Jul 27, 2013)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> Gazza74 said:
> 
> 
> > Need? When did need enter this hobby?
> ...


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Gazza74 said:


> Hotblack Desiato said:
> 
> 
> > Well, seeing as I NEED a JLC MUT Moon, all other watch purchases are non-essential. But like I said, I'm sure I will buckle and purchase the Renegade.
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wzkwok said:


> Was awesome catching up, Doc. Looking forward to kicking it in HK in a couple of weeks. They have tons of carbs there so you should be fine.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Shoo, shoo!

Damned startup microbrand owners, crashing the party like it's 1988 and my parents are out of town...


----------



## heady91 (Jan 1, 2013)

Hey Doc, quick question. Do you still have Orthos Commander 300 bezel inserts laying around by any chance? 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

heady91 said:


> Hey Doc, quick question. Do you still have Orthos Commander 300 bezel inserts laying around by any chance?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


http://www.janistrading.com/shipping-returns-warranty-pre-order-faqs/#SPARES

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

docvail said:


> The Contrail looks nice, like their other models have, but I'm personally most interested in seeing more of their turtle-shaped diver, the Avalon, notwithstanding its apparent similarity to the DevilRay's case shape. I suspect it'll be a blockbuster hit for them.


They've been prototyping that Avalon even before they started working on the Retrospect, which has been out for a few months now. Based on what I saw, and tried on, last week, it'll be a hit for sure. I know I'll get one once it comes out.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> In my conversation with them, we talked a little about design, specifically what they see as being integral to their developing style. I'm sure it'll be the same with them as it was with me - with each new design they are refining and distilling what they're all about.
> 
> The Contrail looks nice, like their other models have, but I'm personally most interested in seeing more of their turtle-shaped diver, the Avalon, notwithstanding its apparent similarity to the DevilRay's case shape. I suspect it'll be a blockbuster hit for them.
> 
> ...





wzkwok said:


> Was awesome catching up, Doc. Looking forward to kicking it in HK in a couple of weeks. They have tons of carbs there so you should be fine.  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





househalfman said:


> They've been prototyping that Avalon even before they started working on the Retrospect, which has been out for a few months now. Based on what I saw, and tried on, last week, it'll be a hit for sure. I know I'll get one once it comes out.


I think Nodus (Trieste) was the first micro brand I ever tried. Got addicted and switched largely to NTH. Now that I know Wes is lurking in this thread, feel free to steal some business back from Doc by getting that Avalon out (Contrail looks great but too similar to something I have incoming) so I can again rep some Nodus in my collection! (All good Doc, not completely thread-hijacking: I have my eye on the Nazario Sauro pre-order after whining several times in this thread for another California dial run.)


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

Has anybody else been checking watchgauge multiple times a day? I signed up for the mailing list but still feel like I'll miss it otherwise. Their front page with the big picture of the nazario sauro and the tiny "preorder coming soon" has been taunting me...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

skuzapo said:


> Has anybody else been checking watchgauge multiple times a day? I signed up for the mailing list but still feel like I'll miss it otherwise. Their front page with the big picture of the nazario sauro and the tiny "preorder coming soon" has been taunting me...


September 3rd.....


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

And you thought you'd be sleeping in on Labor Day...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

For the waverers or those on the fence. You’re welcome.


----------



## Solace (Jun 3, 2018)

Got a pre loved blue Devil Ray from the Bay. Should come on Saturday- I'm excited to actually check out one of Doc's watches. Fiancee should be pleased in November. :] 



Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> And you thought you'd be sleeping in on Labor Day...


Uhm...yeah.

We're going to be doing pre-orders simultaneously across multiple sites, including mine, and I'll be in Hong Kong that day.

8am on the East coast (where John at Watch Gauge will be) will be 8pm for me in HK, and noon GMT, so 2pm in the EU where Serious Watches is.

It's always too early/too late somewhere, but it was critical to find a time that would allow me to be online watching pre-orders in real-time, and manageable for the others.

If it makes everyone feel better, I'm giving up a night of drinking in Hong Kong, so...


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Any insight on who will have what? Or is it pretty evenly distributed this go round? Not counting the exclusives of course...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Any insight on who will have what? Or is it pretty evenly distributed this go round? Not counting the exclusives of course...


Everyone will have everything, with the exception of the Holland, which will only be available from Serious, and the Nazario Sauro, which will only be available from Watch Gauge.

I think we've got Watch Wonderland in Singapore line up to participate, and...there may be one more site coming on board. Watch for that announcement soon.

So, it could be 5 websites doing pre-orders simultaneously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Solace said:


> Got a pre loved blue Devil Ray from the Bay. Should come on Saturday- I'm excited to actually check out one of Doc's watches. Fiancee should be pleased in November. :]
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Cool! Hope he appreciates how lucky he is to have an enabler as a partner.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> So, it could be 5 websites doing pre-orders simultaneously.


Sounds like you are going to need a night of drinking in HK after that!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheJohnP said:


> Sounds like you are going to need a night of drinking in HK after that!


The reason I need to be online is in case any of the other sites blow through what they have, and want more. If that happens, the "more" will have to come from my own inventory, or from one of the others, who find their numbers aren't as strong. So I'll have to play traffic cop.

Ideally, everything will sell out across all sites, including mine, and quickly, and I can go link up with the others who'll be in town.

I'm really looking forward to this trip. I know at least a dozen brands who'll be there. There's a meetup for brand owners and the public, and that one's got two dozen people so far.


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

Doc - are you going to write up your chinese trip again? I loved your threads... very interesting stuff.. please do that again.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Quazi said:


> Doc - are you going to write up your chinese trip again? I loved your threads... very interesting stuff.. please do that again.


Doubtful.

I realized some things about myself over the last few years:

1. I've been trying too hard.

2. Wherever I am, I'd rather just be there, instead of trying to capture everything in pics/videos and documenting it all. Trying to do that lowers my own ability to just soak in and enjoy the experience, by removing me from the moment, mentally. If I'm with friends, I want to be with friends, not reporting on what I'm doing with my friends to the world, which includes some folks who are definitely not friends.

3. What should be fun inevitably ends up not being fun when I do those play-by-play travelogues. Someone always has to drag the thread into the weeds, starting an argument over something stupid, a few people will latch onto something that was funny for a minute and drag it out for days, I'll feel like everything I do or say is being put under a microscope, and end up wondering why I even bother, etc.

I'm not saying I won't post pics. I'm sure I'll post some. Maybe I'll relate some story about something funny if we have a laugh about something. But otherwise, I plan to be in the moment as much as possible.

For everyone - if you're on Facebook, and you'll be in HK that week, we're planning a big meetup of brand owners and peeps who want to holler at us. Make sure to RSVP if you plan to attend - https://www.facebook.com/events/272651443337203/.


----------



## Gazza74 (Jul 27, 2013)

Apologies if this was mentioned earlier - is anything different on the upcoming pre-order of the Renegade vs the stock that Seriouswatches has?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Please be sure to at least catch a video of the elusive North American dancing bear if he makes an appearance again while your in China this time.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Gazza74 said:


> Apologies if this was mentioned earlier - is anything different on the upcoming pre-order of the Renegade vs the stock that Seriouswatches has?


My understanding is the October/November batch will feature the new bracelet/clasp...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gazza74 said:


> Apologies if this was mentioned earlier - is anything different on the upcoming pre-order of the Renegade vs the stock that Seriouswatches has?


New bracelet/clasp, and $25 more.

Otherwise, same watch.

I'm shocked Serious still has any Renegades in stock.

EDIT/PS - I'm down to my last Tiburon - just sayin'...


----------



## Gazza74 (Jul 27, 2013)

winstoda said:


> My understanding is the October/November batch will feature the new bracelet/clasp...


Thank you!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gazza74 (Jul 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> New bracelet/clasp, and $25 more.
> 
> Otherwise, same watch.
> 
> ...


Thank you!


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

docvail said:


> Doubtful.
> 
> I realized some things about myself over the last few years:
> 
> ...


Thanks - makes sense..

I think I learned a ton about watches/china/manufacturing in your travel blogs. I thought you had an amazing perspective . Heck, I bet you could do a travel/watch show (like some do travel and food shows), it would be an instant big hit! (OH WOW that sounds interesting)..

I hope you have a good time in HK.. your last trip seemed to be very successful.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Doubtful.
> 
> I realized some things about myself over the last few years:
> 
> ...


Someone's been reading up on mindfulness and the middle path of doing mind versus being mind in preparation for his trip to Asia 

Good man.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

"Grasshopper, seek first to know your own journeys beginning and end. Seek then the other journeys of which you are a close part. But in this seeking, know patience."

That Kung Fu malarkey was great TV in the 70's, best get dialing in some of that Eastern Intrigue for the weekend........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Copy all on the pain of making those long travel posts, but man alive those Hong Kong Bigger and Badder threads you started were about the best things I've ever read on this forum. Totally epic and just stupidly funny.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Someone's been reading up on mindfulness and the middle path of doing mind versus being mind in preparation for his trip to Asia
> 
> Good man.


The only thing I've read lately is a pre-release copy of Dominic Adler's next novel, "Dark as Angels", and it was seriously good. Watch for it to be released soon on Amazon.










Other than that, I'm 2/3 through the History of Westeros ("World of Ice and Fire"), waiting for that a-hole George Martin to finish the rest of the series, and about 16 laws into the "48 Laws of Power", which is depressingly cynical yet accurate.

I just find that as I get busier my patience for time-sucking activities wears thinner. The more urgent and/or high-priority tasks I have to complete, the more my mind tends to block out all non-essential info and requests.

I took my boys to a punk rock concert Thursday night. My mind was on work, because that was the priority, not listening to punkers shout into a microphone. Last weekend we were in Nashville, and I hardly thought of work at all.



Ragl said:


> "Grasshopper, seek first to know your own journeys beginning and end. Seek then the other journeys of which you are a close part. But in this seeking, know patience."
> 
> That Kung Fu malarkey was great TV in the 70's, best get dialing in some of that Eastern Intrigue for the weekend........
> 
> ...


Meh.

"Two things you gotta remember, Doc: don't sweat the small $hlt, and it's all small $hlt." - Sgt. Brian Mack, my Ranger Yoda, and now eternal overwatch in the sky.

Documenting my travels in the Orient made more sense to me when it was all new, and I was gold like Ponyboy Curtis. The more of that stuff I do, the more it feels like I'm becoming one of those people trying to one-up everyone with constant selfies, showing every manufactured "awesome" moment in what's actually a pretty mundane existence.



Toonces said:


> Copy all on the pain of making those long travel posts, but man alive those Hong Kong Bigger and Badder threads you started were about the best things I've ever read on this forum. Totally epic and just stupidly funny.


I'm sure I'll end up posting about something funny that happened at some point. If not here, then on Facebook.

I mostly hate FB, because it's gotten so stupid, but one thing it has over the forum is lower anonymity.

Anyone can create a made up user name and act like a dlck on WUS. You can create a phony account on FB, but it seems like more work than most trolls have the energy to maintain, so I've been splitting my attention between here and there.

PS - speaking of the Game of Thrones series, the absurd delays in finishing it were given a hilarious reference in the Steven Soderberg film "Logan Lucky". I watched it on the plane to Nashville, and enjoyed it enough to watch it again with my wife last night. Surprisingly good movie.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Allergic to FB, never go there, suspect many of us who follow this thread never go to FB. Pls keep us innocents in the loop.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Allergic to FB, never go there, suspect many of us who follow this thread never go to FB. Pls keep us innocents in the loop.


Maybe I'll just do a blog post. No comments to keep up with, no trolls, no dragging out every gag.

We'll see if I have the time and energy. Lots on my agenda right now.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Scorpene in the rain.......









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

blurt


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

My first NTH watch and I am really enjoying this one, the Renegade. :-!








* * * 







* * * 







* * *


----------



## watchuck (Sep 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> ...Wherever I am, I'd rather just be there, instead of trying to capture everything in pics/videos and documenting it all. Trying to do that lowers my own ability to just soak in and enjoy the experience, by removing me from the moment, mentally. If I'm with friends, I want to be with friends, not reporting on what I'm doing with my friends to the world, which includes some folks who are definitely not friends.


Indeed. Life is for the living. Enjoy all the little moments


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchuck said:


> Indeed. Life is for the living. Enjoy all the little moments


I'll try. No guarantees.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone who's been wondering, the website's "coming soon" page is now updated with all (well, almost all*) the new models, and there's a new blog post.

(*Waiting on Rusty to update the images for the Catalina and Carolina).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I gotta say this - if you're into watches, and really want to be knowledgeable about how the industry TRULY works, you must read James Henderson's blog Tempus Fugit. Anyone who doesn't needs a check-up from the neck-up.

Tempus Fugit: Because it's Easy to Run 2 Brands!

I've been saying this for a long time - the industry needs a radical makeover. The first step is admitting it has a problem, and that seems unlikely to happen without first hitting rock-bottom.

The recent announcement by Nick Hayek that Swatch was bailing on Baselworld should have been the "come to *****" moment, and it may be, but I doubt it.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but the bald-face, undeniable truth is that the luxury brands have become completely disconnected from reality. It's borne out by their own numbers and their actions.

The thing is - it's one thing when I say it, and people often dismiss it, but it's hard to dismiss it if you read TF consistently. More than anyone else, James is the guy keeping the industry scorecard, and objectively calling balls and strikes.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest we're in the final years of a "golden age", nearing a real transition point, likely to coincide with Swatch group's decision to cut off supply of ETA movements and ebauches to third parties in 2020. I'd have to go and look it up, but I suspect they also plan to cut off supply of Nivarox hairsprings.

If they follow through and make good on their plan to do that, look out. As of 2016, Selitta wasn't able to produce movements on their own without any ETA (and I assume Nivarox) cooperation. Soprod and Eterna aren't viable alternatives, and from what we've seen so far, neither is STP or Ronda, though either might become viable, maybe.

That basically leaves the Japanese, and from what I've seen, all sorts of shenanigans happen when they become the only game in town. We could be back to 6-8 month lead times on movements, "normal - if you're Swiss" defect rates (5%-10%, versus 0.1%), and "eff you, pay me" sorts of price swings.

What happens then?

Possibly, Swiss brands start rapidly folding up shop. Not the ones inside Swatch, and likely not Rolex, but any mid-range or lower-luxury brand, especially the independent ones could be in trouble.

I daresay even the Richemont and LVMH group brands could be in for hard times (Tag Heuer will be okay), since things don't appear to be going very well for Kering group brands, DKSH (Maurice Lacroix) or CityChamp's Eterna/Corum/et al.

Basically, any brand that isn't Rolex, Swatch group, Tag, or one of the very few with the right combination of uber-prestige, independent production, low volume, and piles of cash. See this list - https://www.watchtime.com/featured/who-owns-what-a-guide-to-the-watch-groups/ - most of that list is a future "whatever happened to ____?" discussion just waiting to happen.

There is one area of growth in the industry, it seems, at least according to my reading of the numbers - the USD (well, CHF) $400-$1000 price range, right where most micros work and play. And I suspect Swatch group is already eyeing up this segment, and has been for years, by building up their distribution for Hamilton, Tissot, Certina, and Mido.

For micros, it'll be a challenge to maintain operations as they currently are. Our prices will have to go up if we're all experiencing the same pains stemming from a major shift in the market.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Wondering how Movado picking MVMT fits into the upcoming scheme of things.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm. We might see a huge increase in the use of japanese, chinese, noname, and ronda quartz movements on a lot of these brands, if they lose all access to ETA components. Not to mention that's what a lot of micros will swap to, too.

Some (forum darling) companies like Damasko, Stowa and Oris will be completely effed. I've no clue how independent Nomos actually is.

In general... to a lot of the swiss brands, I wouldn't be averse to saying "good riddance". Makers like the aforementioned Eterna, Corum, Maurice Crocroix... who gives a damn. Honestly - what unique, indispensible service are they providing to the society? Would our world be any worse off without them, even for a 0.000000000000000000001%? 
On the other hand... looking through that list from "who owns what" (https://www.watchtime.com/featured/who-owns-what-a-guide-to-the-watch-groups/ ), there's such a huge amount of "fashion" brands that don't even touch automatics, that it's hard for me to think that most of them will be harmed by ETA's decision.

Now, as far as a more general industry implosion (of which the swatch/eta thing is probably one aspect of)... Might be, might be. If you look at what, e.g. Ball Watch Co. has been doing, with their subscriber/website preorder exclusives - they're panicking and trying out any new model that works; the conventional way of doing things ain't flying anymore.

(joking, but... ) :
Soooo it's kinda ironic that NTH is focusing on sub-$1000 automatics, and establishing a network of (online, regional) AD's for sales and special editions and exclusive preorders.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

@docvail

Noob question- If you forecast a pinch in the supply line, is it possible for you (others) to begin hoarding some of the pieces you expect to be difficult (pricier) to source? Its an obvious cash flow dilemma though.

Read this on Hodinkee today, seems to be a similar thought from the opposite angle of microbrands in the environment. 
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/understanding-the-rise-of-the-microbrands
(have not yet read the Tempus Fugit piece yet, work fire-wall did not approve)


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Perhaps Ginault will come to the rescue with a proper US clone of a Swiss eta? 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

I bet the Chinese would love to produce watch parts.. springs. ect... might not be as good, but stp and others could use them... they might already be making those critical parts for swiss watches now..
..

After reading those links.. Seiko (Orient) and Citizen are in really good spots right now.. I wonder if Seiko (Orient) and Citizen will pick up some of the market share if we start loosing swiss watch companies...

thanks for giving us those links.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheJohnP said:


> Wondering how Movado picking MVMT fits into the upcoming scheme of things.


It doesn't, because cheap quartz.

The volume in the under $400 segment has been pretty stable for years. There's no economic reason why it should change. I think the fact that fewer people wear watches as compared to previous generations is already baked in, and won't appear as a dramatic enough change in the numbers that you'd notice from one year to the next.

On the other hand, the change in the numbers in the other price ranges is noticeable, and can be plotted on graphs, so it's somewhat hard to deny the pattern exists.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> ...(joking, but... ) :
> Soooo it's kinda ironic that NTH is focusing on sub-$1000 automatics, and establishing a network of (online, regional) AD's for sales and special editions and exclusive preorders.


It's a fair observation, joking or not.

I think many of the traditional retailers are struggling largely because they're trying to sell an over-priced, under-marketed product to a shrinking number of people who can afford it, but also because so much commerce has moved online.

My goal isn't to build a huge distribution network with hundreds of physical stores, nor is it to break into places like Nieman Marcus. My goal is to have a half-dozen key retail partnerships with online specialist boutiques, each with a regional focus.

If those partners have bricks-and-mortar showrooms, that's a bonus, and a strategic differentiator, but I expect the focus will continue to be the "e" in "ecommerce". If I have one good partner in each region, mostly selling online, then I don't need hundreds of stores, and in fact adding more only hurts all of us.

I think the industry already is changing, and with change come challenges. If you could hear the conversations I have with retailers, it really is "a tale of two cities" - none of them are very happy with the established brands, yet those who see the market as I do seem to be doing better, and better with brands like mine.

To that end...big announcement coming tomorrow.

Stay tuned.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> @docvail
> 
> Noob question- If you forecast a pinch in the supply line, is it possible for you (others) to begin hoarding some of the pieces you expect to be difficult (pricier) to source? Its an obvious cash flow dilemma though.
> 
> ...


Re - could I or others hoard parts?

Yes and no. Mostly probably no.

If a brand is over-stock on assembled pieces, because their inventory isn't turning over, what's the point in adding stock of un-assembled pieces?

On the other hand, if a brand is turning over their inventory rapidly, then there'd be no way to maintain a hoard of parts, because you'd be using them as fast as you order them.

The most volatile component, in terms of costs, is the movements.

It's not horrible to buy movements and keep them sitting around for a year or two, but it's not great, either. The lubricants will dry up eventually. Not in a year or two, but if it's 10, you don't want to have 2 of them spent sitting on a shelf. At a certain point, you may need to dis-assemble, clean, lubricate, and re-assemble them all. So much for the cost savings of hoarding them when prices were low.

Plus, they're the most costly component. If I have $50k to invest, do I invest it in inventory I can sell for a profit, today, like assembled watches, or do I invest it in movements, which I can't sell, because I think their prices are going up, and in order to use them, I have to go and find another pile of cash to make all the other parts and assemble them all?

As for the Hodinkee article - it reads like they're trying to explain microbrands to their own audience, people who maybe don't get it, or who are predisposed to not like it, and I think I detect a note of derision in the sub-text.

It's the article's overall tone. It somewhat sounds like microbrands are the new quartz crisis for the Swiss industry, something the industry needs to reckon with, an action in need of a reaction, a "phase" which will pass eventually, if/when the industry corrects course.

I don't see it that way. In my view, microbrands aren't the cause of the industry's problems, they're the inevitable result of those problems, which were created by the very players who now feel threatened by the changes their actions have hastened.

If luxury brands had kept prices in the reasonable range, there would be much less market demand for micros.



Rhorya said:


> Perhaps Ginault will come to the rescue with a proper US clone of a Swiss eta?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Riiiiiggghhhhhtttt...

Seriously, I've been made aware of what's been said about me and my brand in some of those Ginault threads, some of which has been downright nasty, despite the fact that the sum total of my comments on the topic of Ginault amount to, "if the product is good, the price is fair, and the service backs it all up, I wish them well."

I can only imagine the $hltstorm it would start if I took the bait and said anything about Ginault which might sound remotely negative in its tone.

I have no idea what's going on there. What I do know is that if I figured out how to get a good quality movement made in America, I wouldn't bother trying to sell it under my own brand of watches, I'd just concentrate on selling the movements, mostly because I think that's the bigger play, and I'm all about the bigger play.

Give me a choice between selling 1,000 watches per year or 10,000 movements per year, it's an easy choice for me to make.



Quazi said:


> I bet the Chinese would love to produce watch parts.. springs. ect... might not be as good, but stp and others could use them... they might already be making those critical parts for swiss watches now..
> ..
> 
> After reading those links.. Seiko (Orient) and Citizen are in really good spots right now.. I wonder if Seiko (Orient) and Citizen will pick up some of the market share if we start loosing swiss watch companies...
> ...


The Chinese already do produce watch parts, lots of them, and not all for Chinese movements. Many of them end up in "Swiss" movements.

I mean, do you REALLY think a $600 "Swiss Made" watch is "60%" parts made in Switzerland? That's what a lot of people believe, but that's not what the rules actually say, if you bother to actually read them, in their entirety, and your reading comprehension is decent.

I've read them, many times, and I'm convinced a watch could have no parts made in Switzerland at all, and still be marked "Swiss Made", if they run the numbers right.

Swiss labor rates are surely comparable to American labor rates (and Japanese rates, for that matter). Why is it an RGM, which is mostly made in the USA, costs north of $5k, but somehow Hamilton can sell "Swiss Made" for $600? There's a lot less Swiss manufacturing there than a lot of people think.

For the most part, I think a metal part is a metal part is a metal part. A jewel is a jewel. The difference doesn't come from where they're made, it comes from what happens to them next. Are the parts given the appropriate hardening treatments, are they properly QC'd and assembled, etc?

I think the Japanese are in a good spot because they just execute better than the Swiss, in general.

If I were Seiko or Citizen, I wouldn't be looking to dump tons of cash buying up struggling Swiss brands. Why are they struggling? Chinese-owned CityChamp hasn't done much to turn things around at Eterna and Corum. The problems within those luxury brands are systemic - from the SWISS system for doing things.

If I was running Seiko or Citizen, I'd just keep plugging away with their own luxury brands with limited distribution, and maintain primary focus where it ought to be, exactly where Seiko and Citizen are eating everyone's lunch - the under $400 segment.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

I agree that the Hodinkee article came across as condescending in some aspects. Although there is caveat given to the differences of what a microbrand represents. The Tempus article made me think of you initially, 2 brands, NTH and Huey & Luey (that is a bit tongue in cheek compared to UN and GP.) The overall story of "these watch companies are in for a reckoning, who's going to figure it out?" seemed consistent between both.

The pre-buying movements came from the commodity market, where a vendor will buy futures of an item, because it is known the item will be needed, fleet services buying gas, manufacturers buying stock.

Speaking of RGM, are there any other movement makers in the States? Surely the finishing detail can be lowered on those to lessen the price, sounds like there's potentially a market for them if someone came in to upscale the capability, the knowledge is there.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> I agree that the Hodinkee article came across as condescending in some aspects. Although there is caveat given to the differences of what a microbrand represents. The Tempus article made me think of you initially, 2 brands, NTH and Huey & Luey (that is a bit tongue in cheek compared to UN and GP.) The overall story of "these watch companies are in for a reckoning, who's going to figure it out?" seemed consistent between both.
> 
> The pre-buying movements came from the commodity market, where a vendor will buy futures of an item, because it is known the item will be needed, fleet services buying gas, manufacturers buying stock.
> 
> Speaking of RGM, are there any other movement makers in the States? Surely the finishing detail can be lowered on those to lessen the price, sounds like there's potentially a market for them if someone came in to upscale the capability, the knowledge is there.


The "running two brands" thing caught my attention, too, but James knows I read his blog, and I doubt he'd take a swipe at me like that, even if he thought I was in need of one. Besides, he's got bigger fish to fry, and I doubt he's paying much attention to what I'm doing.

I don't have anything "against" Hodinkee, or any similar blogs. I just think that in their way, THEY are part of the problem, to the extent their fawning coverage encourages the luxury brands to continue screwing the pooch the way they've been doing for the last 30 years.

I didn't mean to start a "tale of two cities" theme today, but the analogy (metaphor?) plays - it really is a tale of two cities.

The big-name blogs largely cater to the watch-snob set, the ones who care what's going on at SIHH or Basel. That ain't ever been my set, and it ain't ever gonna be. I'm the "throwing a party, and everyone's invited" guy. I go out drinking with other brand owners in Hong Kong, wearing out-of-fashion clothes, and I post pics.

It's the exact opposite of the red-carpet, perfectly composed pics you see coming out of Basel. Half my pics aren't even entirely in focus.

I and other micros are down here in the trenches, doing hand-to-hand combat, selling one watch at a time, creating one loyal customer at a time, not just going around the traditional sales channels, but also bypassing the blogs and other press outlets.

How do you think it looks to them, when a brand like mine can be successful despite little to no press coverage? Yes, I've gotten like 50 reviews, but not many from the really big outlets, and honestly, I don't really need them. I haven't bothered much with reviews at all this year, and if it's hurting my business, I'll be damned if I can tell.

It took me a few years, but eventually I figured out that blog reviews are just gravy on the cake, and it's my own online engagement that's putting the baby in the sausage press.

I think you're picking up what I'm putting down, right?

Do you think it's a coincidence that the brands which are building their businesses without relying on blog coverage don't get a lot of love from the blogs?

We're living in two different cities, if not two different worlds.

Of course Hodinkee's article on "micros" includes Autodromo and Farer. Neither of those brands is all that "micro". They both have deep pockets and clearly developed operations. Neither is very "value oriented". They're a far cry from the typical "one man show" microbrands the article seems to disparage. It wouldn't surprise me if Unimatic wasn't really all that "micro" either.

Those aren't "micro" brands, just "new" brands. But that's not the same thing.

Of course the other two brands are Halios and Raven. I like Jason and Steve. They're both good guys, and I like their stuff, but that's a perfect example of the sort of "safe" play blogs like Hodinkee make, all the time, by continually focusing on the handful of "WIS-approved" brands that have been around more than a few years, since before the current boom.

It's easy to pick winners after the fact, and hold them up as the example of "good" micros. It's harder to put your name behind an unproven startup (especially one with an outspoken owner), but that's what the blogs I've worked with have done, at least early on, and most of them still do that.

The ironic thing is that Hodinkee even feels an article like that is worth posting. Micros have been around 10 years or more. Brands like Lum-Tec and Christopher Ward show what's possible with enough time and effort. I can rattle off a dozen brands which are way more interesting than the ones they're paying attention to, repeatedly, and the typical guy in the microbrands group on Facebook already knows more about micros than that article reveals. Just scanning the comments gives me a sense for who's reading Hodinkee, and it isn't my typical customer.

Where's the "up and coming micros" article highlighting Nodus or Visitor, or Orion? Where's the profile of the wolfpack - me, Sujain, and Chip, arguably the three guys who kicked off the current wave back in 2013, right before Kickstarter blew up with a dozen watch projects every month?

There are so many interesting stories to be told, and most of the blogs are just overlooking them, in favor of the big-name or well-established brands, because they're safe.

Eff safety. If you're not willing to get the real story and tell it, then you're not a journalist, you're a PR flack.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Love me a Wall-O-Text!! I’m like a dog rolling around in a mud puddle!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> The "running two brands" thing caught my attention, too, but James knows I read his blog, and I doubt he'd take a swipe at me like that, even if he thought I was in need of one. Besides, he's got bigger fish to fry, and I doubt he's paying much attention to what I'm doing.
> 
> I don't have anything "against" Hodinkee, or any similar blogs. I just think that in their way, THEY are part of the problem, to the extent their fawning coverage encourages the luxury brands to continue screwing the pooch the way they've been doing for the last 30 years.
> 
> ...


That is one of the reasons why I chose NTH as my one-watch (managed to sell the rest last week & not counting the GW-5000). How rare is it that you can actually talk/discuss to the guy behind the product you buy. 
I doubt that even the ultra high-end brand watch makers will exchange more than a few words with their customers. 
The website is no-nonsense as is the description of the watches. Other than that the product values form over function.

I think the German brands (Sinn, Damasko) have this no-nonsense website - marketing approach. (As fas as I can tell.)

Lately I became allergic to luxury product marketing. Bombarding you with milions of adjectives and lifestyle pictures. Its really hard to buy a product/watch that sells you high quality, smart design and doesn't put their money into reviewers, influencers and web design. Everytime I see this it makes me feel less likely to buy the product because I can see that they are desperate to sell something more. I just want the physical item, if I get more I feel like I am paying more for nothing.

This week I lost my folder knife and I was looking for something more upmarket that has a good steel and a durable design. ... and I thought that Youtube watchr reviews are low quality in content....


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I’ve had some email exchanges with Christopher Ward, he’s a very approachable guy, not as prone to walks of text but personable non the less. Also George Fox of NFW, so it’s very refreshing to actually be able to interact and have a dialogue with actual people who are involved In their watch business and the industry. For everyone else including us who have to deal with the AD’s or online boutiques for the big name brands we are the no-name percentage on a graph in a boardroom marked as sales forecast for third quarter. 

I much prefer a local GTG where I can shake a hand, have a beer and look a guy in the eye and ask a question.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> That is one of the reasons why I chose NTH as my one-watch (managed to sell the rest last week & not counting the GW-5000). How rare is it that you can actually talk/discuss to the guy behind the product you buy.
> I doubt that even the ultra high-end brand watch makers will exchange more than a few words with their customers.
> The website is no-nonsense as is the description of the watches. Other than that the product values form over function.


Be fair.

Our website has a little bit of nonsense.

I mentioned Batman in the original product description for the DevilRay. I said he carried a purse, or something like that. It's not like I'm not throwing a few wild pitches here and there.



Seikogi said:


> I think the German brands (Sinn, Damasko) have this no-nonsense website - marketing approach. (As fas as I can tell.)
> 
> Lately I became allergic to luxury product marketing. Bombarding you with milions of adjectives and lifestyle pictures. Its really hard to buy a product/watch that sells you high quality, smart design and doesn't put their money into reviewers, influencers and web design. Everytime I see this it makes me feel less likely to buy the product because I can see that they are desperate to sell something more. I just want the physical item, if I get more I feel like I am paying more for nothing.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the kind words, thanks for thinking enough of the Nacken to make it your one watch, hats off to you for selling all the others (I still have two Acionnas and a Cerberus for sale, just sayin'...), and sorry to hear about your knife.

The website, in my mind, has always been just a digital catalog/storefront where you can plunk down your money and buy something. It's "no nonsense", for the most part, but it can only be that way because I've really been making the sales here on forums and on other social media, with the engagement. The new website is going to be a bit more...visceral, I guess, in order to be more in line with the "persona" of the business, but still relatively no-nonsense, at least inasmuch as we don't have heavily doctored photos of the beautiful people.

The social media gurus are full of $hlt with their how-to advice, like there's some combination of joystick inputs you can pull off to execute the microbrand success story, and stick the landing. I see other brand owners doing the "which color do you like better" bit on social media, because that's one of the moves on the how-to list, but from what I've seen, it doesn't translate to sales, at least not judging by the way those same guys end up asking me and others for advice on brand-building.

What I've done isn't rocket science. Like Woody Allen said, 90% of success is just showing up. I tell other brand owners that if they took the time they spend bltching about how hard things are, and spent it on a forum, just shooting the $hlt with watch-geeks, they wouldn't be asking which blogs can move the needle, and whether or not forum sponsorship makes sense.

That's really all it is. Sales 101 says it's not what you have, it's who you know. Sales 102 says people don't care what you know (or what you have), until they know how much you care.

You can't buy a following, you have to build it, one "Seiko vs Vostok" or "Which watch should I buy" thread at a time. You can't just show up whenever you have a new model to promote, and otherwise you're a ghost. You have to be a part of the community if you want the community's support. You have to do more than "here's my watch, please buy it."

I love reading comments from people who somehow think it's a criticism to say I've got a legion of die-hard fans. Really? As opposed to what? Brands without many fans, or fans who are just lukewarm in their support? And how is it I have all those fans if I'm such an annoying jerk online, and/or my product really isn't that good?

If it's all the product, then it must be pretty good to get people to look past the brash brand owner. If the product isn't that great, then all those fans must not think I'm all that brash.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

QQ - just to be sure, since the renders show what I believe are shadows, but the bezel on the Dolphin is just the gray steel, right, and not colored (black) like the other subs? Or am I seeing the shadows in reverse?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Well, as for keeping the close contact with the community - aye, it's a good thing, and most likely (one of) the key(s) behind L&H and NTH success; on the other hand, WUS isn't an unlimited resource.

Then again, it's probably a better "community" than whatever one ends up getting through the modern Instagram network. Over the past 2 years especially, it has become painfully obvious how fake and manufactured the instagram presence and the instagram brand endorsements/adverts really are. Plus, by Jove, there is absolutely a fatigue of seeing the same style and type of watch photography from the brands there.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> QQ - just to be sure, since the renders show what I believe are shadows, but the bezel on the Dolphin is just the gray steel, right, and not colored (black) like the other subs? Or am I seeing the shadows in reverse?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


It's just stainless, not black.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Well, I can say first hand that your presence here is the sole reason I own a devil ray and will also be purchasing a sub on the next pre-order.
I originally had no interest in micro brands, but after reading your now legendary WOT's and you giving insight into everything involved in your process, I gained a lot of respect for what you do and learned that the watches you produce are at LEAST on par if not better than the watches I was originally looking at in the same price range.
It was also very cool to show the Devil Ray to my dad (who is an old school WIS) and see how cool he thought the watch was and introduce him to the world of microbrands. His excitement alone was worth the purchase.
Just keep doing what you do, and I wish you all the success you deserve.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Well, as for keeping the close contact with the community - aye, it's a good thing, and most likely (one of) the key(s) behind L&H and NTH success; on the other hand, WUS isn't an unlimited resource.
> 
> Then again, it's probably a better "community" than whatever one ends up getting through the modern Instagram network. Over the past 2 years especially, it has become painfully obvious how fake and manufactured the instagram presence and the instagram brand endorsements/adverts really are. Plus, by Jove, there is absolutely a fatigue of seeing the same style and type of watch photography from the brands there.


The first digital ad agency I hired had another client, RAEN sunglasses, who were apparently killing it. As products go, $100+ sunglasses from a company without a "household name" seemed pretty comparable to $500 microbrand watches. I asked my guy there what RAEN was doing that was working so well.

His response was, "a little of everything."

I've had debates with other brand owners about whether or not it's worth it to sponsor a forum or FB group, or spend time on the forums, or spend money on digital ads, etc, as if there's one silver bullet out there.

Without a doubt, some things work better than others, and no amount of promotion can compensate for lousy design, but it seems to me that some guys think it'll be easier than it is, and happen faster than it's going to, if they can just get me or other "successful" microbrands to open up and tell them what works.

I've been telling them - time spent on forums, FB and Instagram, doing hand-to-hand combat in the trenches, creating one fan at a time - that's how you build a following for you brand. Advertising can help, but if you build up your following, you don't need to spend much on advertising, because the customers should be your best advertisers.

But it doesn't happen overnight. It takes two years of 60 hour weeks before you can even think of taking any money out, and five years before you can even relax, a little, and feel like what you're doing is working. A lot of the new guys think Kickstarter will give them the instant success they need to quit their day-jobs, and are disappointed when it doesn't happen.

It's kind of funny. More than a year ago, I asked Chris Wiegand of Lum-Tec for some advice on how to deal with some frustrations I was having related to the production process, especially the delays and problems stemming from prototyping.

He said that in some ways, it was EASIER when he started his business, some ten years ago. People didn't make a stink about seeing photos of prototypes back then, apparently. He always sold off renders, and not even 3D renders back then. Some brands still do that.

That kind of blew my mind. Ten years ago - before crowd-funding, before the current micro-brand boom, before FB was awash in huge watch groups, before Instagram, when the "affordable" sub-forum was the "Invicta" sub-forum (true story), before Alibaba and similar sites, before everyone was addicted to instant messaging, before WhatsApp.

How was that easier? I have no idea how he did it, but he did it.

I guess I somewhat relate, when I look at what Kickstarter looks like now compared to five years ago. When I did my pre-launch research for my first project, there had been maybe half a dozen watch projects on the platform, ever, which were successful enough to be worth studying, and in retrospect, a lot of those ended up being scams or simple failures.

Today, guys don't even do research. They email established micros - who's your factory, who's your payments processor, who's your photographer, can I use your website copy, which blogs should I work with, is it worth it to sponsor a forum, how can I get venture capital funds interested, blah, blah, blah?

It was easier for me to stand out in that way, at that time, I guess, though I suppose one could argue that Kickstarter didn't have nearly the traffic and legitimacy they have today. Now, it seems like a dozen brands launch on KS every week.

And yet...where are they? Where are the brand owners, on this or other forums? They're all on IG and Facebook, but most of them don't really "engage". They post a pic of a watch to a group on FB, then disappear. There's no interaction with the community if it isn't about whatever they're selling.

They don't go to GTG's! I mean, I spent all day on a train to get to a GTG in CT. I flew to one in Atlanta. There are brand owners who won't drive an hour to see 20-30 watch geeks who are dying to see the brand's watches. The District Time event in DC is open to any brand who wants to be there, and it costs practically nothing. It should be the biggest event of its kind, but its like pulling teeth to get some brand owners to go. I don't get it.

I'm not saying anything here that I haven't said to them. I don't know why so many seem so bashful about interacting with their customers, even online. I had 2,000-3,000 posts here before I asked anyone to buy anything from me. They weren't all "hey guys, I'm starting a watch company". The vast majority were "Seiko vs Vostok", or the usual stuff people discuss here.

I don't know why they think they can show up, first day, ask people to buy something, then disappear, come back when they have something else to sell, disappear, come back again later, then complain that they're not getting traction, or that the people on forums are brutal, or whatever.

Yes, people on the forum can be brutal, when you show up and say you're starting a microbrand. They can be brutal even five years later, when you're supposedly a pillar of the community. If you can't hang with brutal, you shouldn't be starting a watch brand. As brutal as this place can be, it's the primary venue for launching my business. My business wouldn't be where it is today if not for the existence of this place, AND the time I spent here.


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

from my perspective - your approach works. At least for me, I guess.

Never heard of NTH before I stumbled in this forum (affordable watches, I mean) a few month ago . I was active on WuS years before that (other account though), but mostly in the Seiko sub-forum.
Now browsing through the affordable watches sub-forum I learned about NTH and I really like what Im seeing. Atm I dont have the spare funds to buy another watch, but sooner or later (christmas bonus?! *cough*) I will have to satisfy my craving - and now NTH is high up on my "next to buy" list. 

So: Keep up the good work and thanks for your insights in the watchmaking world


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> . My business wouldn't be where it is today if not for the existence of this place, AND _*the time I spent here*_.


A key element to attach to that time is - Quality - it is very much quality time. Well, for me anyway, this particular reader on the other side of the screen gets a great deal of infotainment from your regular W.O.T.s, even if they do make me late for my assignments!! I tell ya, this part of the cosmos would be a poorer place without your regular contribution of searing incisive input and unique blend of 'orneriness and comedic wittery; Sales 103, make 'em laugh and they'll buy the watches........

Keep it up Doc, please don't be dropping your impeccable standards......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

@DocVail - you put babies in the sausage press? Who are you, a Jonathan Swift devotee? I stopped reading after that. I bet you're vegan too, so as not to consume the baby sausage you are making. What goes into your watches if babies go in the sausage?

(This comment adds nothing to the discourse, move along, nothing to see.)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Poerger said:


> ...Atm I dont have the spare funds to buy another watch...


You have to leave, now.



Ragl said:


> ...Sales 103, make 'em laugh and they'll buy the watches.....please don't be dropping your *impeccable standards*...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


They do require constant vigilance...


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> You have to leave, now.




not that easy to get rid of me, Im afraid


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Poerger said:


> from my perspective - your approach works. At least for me, I guess.
> 
> Never heard of NTH before I stumbled in this forum (affordable watches, I mean) a few month ago . I was active on WuS years before that (other account though), but mostly in the Seiko sub-forum.
> Now browsing through the affordable watches sub-forum I learned about NTH and I really like what Im seeing. Atm I dont have the spare funds to buy another watch, but sooner or later (christmas bonus?! *cough*) I will have to satisfy my craving - and now NTH is high up on my "next to buy" list.
> ...





Ragl said:


> A key element to attach to that time is - Quality - it is very much quality time. Well, for me anyway, this particular reader on the other side of the screen gets a great deal of infotainment from your regular W.O.T.s, even if they do make me late for my assignments!! I tell ya, this part of the cosmos would be a poorer place without your regular contribution of searing incisive input and unique blend of 'orneriness and comedic wittery; Sales 103, make 'em laugh and they'll buy the watches........
> 
> Keep it up Doc, please don't be dropping your impeccable standards......
> 
> ...


(Two can play at the WOT game.)

I concur.

I started lurking in this sub-forum about 10 years ago.

I first bought an SKX013 and then over the next few years added some big company (e.g., Casio, Invicta) high-end look-alikes, without much research beyond quick searches for "what are good homages or affordable alternatives to X."

I randomly got more interested in collecting again about 2-3 years ago (likely because my financial situation significantly improved around that time).

I sold everything off and started trialing various usual recommendations sub -$100 and -$200 and then up to around $400 and $500 (so mostly Seikos and vintage) for another year or so. Simultaneously, I started trying my hand at modding sub-$200 Seikos and Invictas. I tried lots of styles: divers, pilots, fields, sports, Chinese chronos, dress, digitals, vintage, mods, etc. I learned I like divers best (like most bros, I suppose). And that I have a relatively puny wrist at 6.5" and am thin (so I prefer shorter and thinner).

It was a lesson for me that while I was in the Seiko/modding/vintage era, and still pretty green as to what I knew about specs, preferences, etc., I'd see the foremost lauded microbrand offerings in various threads (e.g., NTH sub, Squale 1521, Halios Seaforth) and think: I don't get it--I don't like that dial, or logo, or whatever, or the design is kind of bland, and it's a little expensive. Now I adore all of these examples and more, and I'm cool with the price. How'd that happen? I continued to hang around these parts, looked at my Seiko/modding/vintage collection one day, which felt pretty complete at that time, and said--ya, all of this needs to get updated.

I finally stepped up to a > $500 grail: a CW Trident Pro, and then quickly became interested in other popular offerings--so mostly dive watches--in this price bracket of $500-1000, with a strong preference to stay under $700-800. So, naturally, microbrands really came online for me. I tried some of the sub-$500 options and while I liked what I tried, I always reacted to a thing or two in a way that motivated me to flip them (too tall or long, too close in price to the "read deal" flieger to which I might as well step up for brand prestige, etc.).

The CW continued to feel like (and still feels like) a keeper, so I started to experiment with other offerings in the $500-$1000 price range, with implicit curiosity as to whether I had found the "keeper" range for me. Suddenly the NTHs, and Squales, and Halioses, and Ravens, etc. started to look good to my eye, whereas they honestly hadn't before. Best I can figure, my price preferences truly can color my reaction to watch aesthetics, and these interdependent preferences evidently evolve and influence each other over time.

As another example of this phenomenon, as my WIS snobbery increased, I would occasionally see Rolexes and Omegas on folks in my everyday life and think "so ordinary" and "probably an uninspired/shallow purchase/wearer." This judgmental attitude was made easier by the fact that microbrands in the $500-$1000 range are generally comparable to higher-end watches--at least dive watches--in terms of components (with some minor finishing and movement-related distinctions, fine). So I'd think, "oh this jawn over here just doesn't know what he can get comparably for so much less." Still, this was undoubtedly just how I resolved my cognitive dissonance--in reality, I just wasn't ready to step up to that price range, as evidenced by the fact that lately, I've been toying with the thought of stepping up to a Moonwatch (rationalizing that there's no iconic premium microbrand chronos).

Despite my recognition of this phenomenon in myself, I still engage in the oft-mistaken judgment--that I don't like something rather than _I just don't like it yet_: I currently feel this way about German brands, and while my "meh" still holds for Sinn, it's starting to change for Damasko and it has already changed for Stowa.

Returning to my microbrand journey, as I read about and looked more at microbrands, the personalities of the brand owners/companies seemed important to text and video bloggers ("he's a really great guy," "he started on the forums as a collector like everyone else," "he started modding Seikos," "he's from Philly," bla, bla). This aspect of microbrands started to become appealing to me too, in addition to the aforementioned price, design, and quality considerations.

And this is where I think you distinguish yourself best, Doc, at least online (I haven't yet ventured into the meet-up world yet, but I'm sure I will in due time, as I considered making the trek to KOP last time.). I don't have to take a blogger's word for it; I can say to myself, "I've read this guy's stuff and interacted with him a bit; he's evidently cool, has kickass designs, and has taught me about what to look for/that he includes it in his products--I'm proud to rep and tell others about his company."

The value in this for a microbrand? Well, beyond the obvious of building a loyal customer and street-teamer, another thing is that it overcomes the heritage critique. "I don't care if the company hasn't been around for 100 years, or if it's uncertain whether I'm going to be able to get this thing conveniently serviced in the future. The design is rad and it's Doc's company, so I'm good."

And to make amends for this WOT, a shot of my Nacken that accompanied its drafting:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You had me at "jawn".


Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Soooo. . . Am I the only one eagerly awaiting this alleged big news that is supposed to happen today?
I'll be checking in on this thread periodically throughout the day, but the anticipation is killing me!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> Soooo. . . Am I the only one eagerly awaiting this alleged big news that is supposed to happen today?
> I'll be checking in on this thread periodically throughout the day, but the anticipation is killing me!
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


Wait for it...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> Soooo. . . Am I the only one eagerly awaiting this alleged big news that is supposed to happen today?
> I'll be checking in on this thread periodically throughout the day, but the anticipation is killing me!
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


Check the blog.

If you're not in the UK, it's likely not that big a deal. It's exciting for me because I've been chasing this partnership going on four years now.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Check the blog.
> 
> If you're not in the UK, it's likely not that big a deal. It's exciting for me because I've been chasing this partnership going on four years now.


I was hoping for an unexpected new watch, but this is also great news! That's really cool that some people will be able to see your watches and try them on in a showroom setting. Good job, and congratulations!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> I was hoping for an unexpected new watch, but this is also great news! That's really cool that some people will be able to see your watches and try them on in a showroom setting. Good job, and congratulations!
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


Indeed, that's showrooms in the UK, Europe, and Singapore, now.

I know John at Watch Gauge will let people come to his office and see stuff there, but he's not exactly convenient for most people, unless you live way the hell out on Long Island.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Congrats


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Nice.:-!:-!:-!


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

What I really did like and what was very persuasive in the end (and still is) to buy a watch was the level of (perceived) transparency and straight-forwardness I experienced in this and the other nth thread.

It's entertaining, educative, sometimes arguable. But always honest (from what I can tell). And the watch is flatter than the BB .

It was so convincing, that two of my wus-friends (not very adventurous) bought into it as well.

The above „tale of two cities" was very interesting as well, a very nice read. Thanks. I hope your strategy develops they way you want it to. You seem to be on the right track and it's pretty cool to get a glance into your long-term thoughts once in a while.

I'm no writer, sorry for the confusing post










There wasn't a pic for a couple of posts.

Note: NO Filter used. It's the lighting angle.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Congrats on the addition of Page & Cooper to your distributors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


>


I'm just laughing because that's exactly the sort of image I get in response when someone tells me their watch has some obvious bit of whatever under the crystal, and I ask them to send me a pic so I can see what they're talking about.

I swear I'm not joking.

I've had people send me pics of watches taken from across a room, and still out of focus.

I had a guy send me a video clip which was so short that the Windows Media Player shut almost as soon as it opened. I actually thought there was something wrong with my computer, and restarted it.

I can't even count the number of pics taken at 4,000x magnification, so I could see the "obvious defect". Like, if it's so obvious, why do you need a billboard-sized pic to see it?


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Dub Rubb said:
> 
> 
> > I was hoping for an unexpected new watch, but this is also great news! That's really cool that some people will be able to see your watches and try them on in a showroom setting. Good job, and congratulations!
> ...


Swipe at me?


----------



## krockwood (May 15, 2016)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

NTH subs are definitely a well made and enjoyable watch to wear. Well executed and fit like a glove. There's a style for every watch lover in the NTH sub lineup. But I must point out that the price point has gotten a little out of hand. Over $600 for a Seiko NH35 or a Miyota 9015. If you're wondering why these watches are fetching these prices its because of one reason. Supply and demand. These watches are strategically being released in small numbers to increase the demand so not only the price for new models are bloated but also the resale prices because there are simply not enough watches to go around. Rolex executes a similar tactic to keep their prices where they want them to be. Oceanx, Nethuns, Zelos are to name a few other watch brands that offer the same if not better quality for a lesser price tag. I'm not saying NTH isnt an awesome watch cause it is. What I am saying is that these small batch preorder releases with this company is got us all paying a little more than we should be for this tier watch.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

krockwood said:


> NTH subs are definitely a well made and enjoyable watch to wear. Well executed and fit like a glove. There's a style for every watch lover in the NTH sub lineup. But I must point out that the price point has gotten a little out of hand. Over $600 for a Seiko NH35 or a Miyota 9015. If you're wondering why these watches are fetching these prices its because of one reason. Supply and demand. These watches are strategically being released in small numbers to increase the demand so not only the price for new models are bloated but also the resale prices because there are simply not enough watches to go around. Rolex executes a similar tactic to keep their prices where they want them to be. Oceanx, Nethuns, Zelos are to name a few other watch brands that offer the same if not better quality for a lesser price tag. I'm not saying NTH isnt an awesome watch cause it is. What I am saying is that these small batch preorder releases with this company is got us all paying a little more than we should be for this tier watch.


And the smaller batch size couldn't have any other origin? Like production costs required to make larger batches?

Paying more than we should? Here we go. Considering design, execution, post sale support, etc etc. sum of parts and all..... Personally, I'd pay more for exclusivity. Don't see it as a negative. I prefer little known names, etc...

Also, isn't it always about supply and demand? If Doc made just one watch, and it was crappy, he couldn't give it away. There's just too much for me to comment on....

Plus, isn't Doc putting food on his table with this business?
I

As they say, day old calves understand not the glittering of gold.


----------



## krockwood (May 15, 2016)

Anyone buying an NTH is overpaying. Do the research.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



krockwood said:


> NTH subs are definitely a well made and enjoyable watch to wear. Well executed and fit like a glove. There's a style for every watch lover in the NTH sub lineup. But I must point out that the price point has gotten a little out of hand. Over $600 for a Seiko NH35 or a Miyota 9015. If you're wondering why these watches are fetching these prices its because of one reason. Supply and demand. These watches are *strategically being released in small numbers to increase the demand* so not only the price for new models are bloated but also the resale prices because there are simply not enough watches to go around. Rolex executes a similar tactic to keep their prices where they want them to be. Oceanx, Nethuns, Zelos are to name a few other watch brands that offer the same if not better quality for a lesser price tag. I'm not saying NTH isnt an awesome watch cause it is. What I am saying is that these *small batch preorder releases* with this company is got us all paying a little more than we should be for this tier watch.


"Strategically being released"???

"Small batch"???

We're literally releasing 450 watches at once, on the same day, across 5 websites, on 3 continents. It would have been 650, but we pre-sold 200 - at full price, despite a months-long wait - because of overwhelming demand.

I get a dozen messages a week from guys asking me if I have any hidden stock of one or another model squirreled away in my office, or asking when we'll make more of sold-out models. I had to hire a virtual assistant to help me field all the emails and comments on social media, so I can focus on production, to keep up with demand.

Just out of curiosity, aside from comparing one watch to another, when one might be UNDERpriced, what basis do you have for determining that our prices are too high? Do you have some sort of insight into our production costs, sales costs, and operating costs?

It's not like I spend lots of spare time (there is none) screwing supermodels on top of a mountain of cash.

Help me understand the logic here. In your mind, I'm deliberately selling FEWER watches, which means I make LESS money, so that I can charge MORE for the watches, because...?

Do the math. Wouldn't I be better off selling twice as many for 20% less, if that was what the market demand would justify? Why would I willingly sell LESS?

Maybe the price is "right", and we're making them at the right pace, doing a decent job of matching supply to demand.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Give this man some Snackers ASAP


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



krockwood said:


> NTH subs are definitely a well made and enjoyable watch to wear. Well executed and fit like a glove. There's a style for every watch lover in the NTH sub lineup. But I must point out that the price point has gotten a little out of hand. Over $600 for a Seiko NH35 or a Miyota 9015. If you're wondering why these watches are fetching these prices its because of one reason. Supply and demand. These watches are strategically being released in small numbers to increase the demand so not only the price for new models are bloated but also the resale prices because there are simply not enough watches to go around. Rolex executes a similar tactic to keep their prices where they want them to be. Oceanx, Nethuns, Zelos are to name a few other watch brands that offer the same if not better quality for a lesser price tag. I'm not saying NTH isnt an awesome watch cause it is. What I am saying is that these small batch preorder releases with this company is got us all paying a little more than we should be for this tier watch.


The main difference I see between the watches you listed and the NTH subs is definitely case thickness. The OceanX divers start at 16mm thick and go up to 17.5mm! The Nethuns aren't much better at 16.25 either. The Zelos I do like, their designs are great and they only hover around the 13.5mm Mark.
I don't see any other diver on the market at 11.5mm thick in this price range, or even close to it. 
Also, most if not all the other watches have NH35s, and I will take the higher beat miyota every time.
Not trying to jump on the bandwagon, as I am readily considering picking up a Zelos. Just pointing out that what makes these subs different, especially in my eyes is that huge difference in thickness.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

krockwood said:


> Anyone buying an NTH is overpaying. Do the research.


What research? Last time I checked, the Nth held a record for thinnest 300m watch for some time. Great design and engineering....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

THOUSANDS OF CUSTOMERS: "Love this product."

RANDOM GUY WITH 3 POSTS: "You're all a bunch of over-paying fools! Do the research!"


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Please don't feed the troll.


----------



## krockwood (May 15, 2016)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Sorry Doc I cant in good conscience advocate your overpriced homages using the same case design with a dial and hand set change as a savvy purchase. You're in it to make a buck plain and simple with no regard for the watch community. Good for you though cause its working.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



krockwood said:


> Sorry Doc I cant in good conscience advocate your overpriced homages using the same case design with a dial and hand set change as a savvy purchase. You're in it to make a buck plain and simple with no regard for the watch community. Good for you though cause its working.


Carson, is that you?










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> THOUSANDS OF CUSTOMERS: "Love this product."
> 
> RANDOM GUY WITH 3 POSTS: "You're all a bunch of over-paying fools! Do the research!"


I should have looked at his post cpunt. If I saw it was3, I might not hAve responded at all.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

krockwood said:


> Sorry Doc I cant in good conscience advocate your overpriced homages using the same case design with a dial and hand set change as a savvy purchase. You're in it to make a buck plain and simple with no regard for the watch community. Good for you though cause its working.


I hope he's in it to make a buck. But with no regard to the watch community? Really?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> I should have looked at his post cpunt. If I saw it was3, I might not hAve responded at all.


One of the downsides of Tapatalk. Can't see post count. On a PC, it's a different story.










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## krockwood (May 15, 2016)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Hahahaha I love how all your panties are getting in a bunch over this. Keep up the good work Doc cause I still do enjoy flipping your product for a profit.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

krockwood said:


> Hahahaha I love how all your panties are getting in a bunch over this. Keep up the good work Doc cause I still do enjoy flipping your product for a profit.


Making a buck with no regard to the watch community?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> Making a buck with no regard to the watch community?


Let him go, Glen.

The bigger the business gets, the more of this we see. It's becoming predictable. Every time we have any good news to share, the trolls and haters come out of the woodwork.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> GlenRoiland said:
> 
> 
> > Making a buck with no regard to the watch community?
> ...


Sometimes it's difficult for me. The bait is soooooo shiny.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

GlenRoiland said:


> Sometimes it's difficult for me. The bait is soooooo shiny.


Who even needs a watch these days. We all have phones. The whole industry is a scam.

Wait....I have 20 watches.....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> GlenRoiland said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes it's difficult for me. The bait is soooooo shiny.
> ...


Haha..

I wish I only had 20!!!

Lol


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> You had me at "jawn".
> 
> Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


Mission accomplished. Such a versatile Philly-ism.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



krockwood said:


> Oceanx, Nethuns, Zelos are to name a few other watch brands that offer the same if not better quality


No, they don't. Objectively, they just plain don't. Don't be facetious.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Check the blog.
> 
> If you're not in the UK, it's likely not that big a deal. It's exciting for me because *I've been chasing this partnership going on four years now.*


My OCD got the better of me, forcing me to go and find our original exchange.

I emailed them about being my UK retail partner on October 1, 2014.

*True story* - when I first met my wife, she had a boyfriend. I didn't care. I asked her to go out with me, twice a week, every week, for six months. I'd call her at work, and one of the girls she worked with would say, "You know she has a boyfriend, right?" And I'd say, "I don't care. Put her on the phone."

Eventually, she agreed to go out with me - JUST AS FRIENDS.

We've been together ever since.

I asked her out no less than 52 times before she finally said "yes".

When I was a medic with the Rangers, my platoon sergeant was a d**k, and kept passing me over for schools and promotions, in favor of other guys. The excuse he always gave me was that I was out of shape, and they weren't. It was true. They were in better shape than me, but they lacked heart.

Our battalion had a dive team, so they needed a dive medic, and before a guy could go to dive medic school, he had to get through the unit's pre-scuba course, which was basically just a two-week suck-fest, all day, every day. The guys on the dive team would have us doing 8 hours of grueling exercises and tests each day - five mile run, three kilometer open-water swim, then, we'd do some 'real' exercise.

You know what waterboarding is? I've been water-boarded, sort of. The dive team would hold a running hose over our faces while making us do flutter kicks, and sing cadence as it was happening. Try taking deep breaths while someone holds a garden hose six inches from your face.

None of the guys my platoon sergeant sent could last more than three days. He sent four guys in two years, and they all quit within 2-3 days. I told him to send me. He laughed. He was certain I'd quit.

It was the most miserable two weeks of my life, but not only did I complete the course, I was invited back to do it again, because of yet despite the fact that I didn't pass all the tests. The dive team were the studliest of physical studs in our unit, and while they started off hammering me for being out of shape, I was the first medic in five years to finish the course, and even the biggest pr**k on the team had to admit, I was legit.

Word got around. Doc Vail may not be a physical specimen, but he ain't soft. It's what led to my being tasked to work for Sgt Mack, as he was training guys to compete in the Best Ranger competition.

That sort of relentlessness was my calling card as a salesperson. I've had guys call me and say, "Chris, you've called me and left a message twice a week for a year. I kept thinking you'd eventually give up, but you haven't. I've never seen anyone as determined as you. I don't know what you're selling, but whatever it is, I'll buy it...what is it?"

I know it sounds arrogant, but eff it - I am sincerely amused when guys test me, or think a little trolling is going to deter me, or get me off my game.

A girl rejected me 52 times, and I didn't give up asking her out. I spent three years getting screwed over on a daily basis. I submitted myself to two weeks of near torture, just to prove a point. I gave up TV for two years, so I could spend that time studying to get four professional designations, which take most people six years to get. I've been chasing one strategic relationship for almost four years.

Trolling? Haters? Doubters?

Pffffft!

Bring it.


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Ok Doc, all this talk of relentlessness has me inspired.

Would you be prepared to do a titanium sub if preorders could be confirmed? What would the MOQ be?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ian_61 said:


> Ok Doc, all this talk of relentlessness has me inspired.
> 
> Would you be prepared to do a titanium sub if preorders could be confirmed? What would the MOQ be?


500 pieces of the case, 50 per dial/bezel/hands variation.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Nice background on you Doc. Thank for sharing.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



krockwood said:


> Oceanx, Nethuns, Zelos are to name a few other watch brands that offer the same if not better quality


Zelos used to be competitive until they ditched the better high beat 9015 movement for low beat. The others don't even come close.


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

docvail said:


> 500 pieces of the case, 50 per dial/bezel/hands variation.


Tall order. Gives us something to work toward though! Cheers.


----------



## Tman3000 (May 12, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My OCD got the better of me, forcing me to go and find our original exchange.
> 
> I emailed them about being my UK retail partner on October 1, 2014.
> 
> ...


This is the first time I've read one of your many posts and finally get why people like you on the forums so much. Also why they buy your watches, you seem very genuine.

Don't own any of your watches but I like what you do. I'm not sure i want to see as much of what is behind the curtain as you share but seems to be working for you.

I think people like you are what makes it possible to be an enthusiast without spending insane amounts of money and for me that's a big part of this watch obsession. So much about watches from the Swiss brands seems to be more in line with jewelry - where being expensive is what makes something desirable and function takes a back seat to form. The tiny little details that some of us obsess over will never impress the "normals", most of those things à are practically invisible at first glance, but this is the stuff the good micro brands do well. I hope to get to see your watches in person some day, might plan my next vacation around some sort of watch fair (shhhh, don't tell my girlfriend)

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Nikita70 said:


> Nice background on you Doc. Thank for sharing.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tman3000 said:


> This is the first time I've read one of your many posts...


You have to leave now.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

True story. Nothing to do with watches, just because it's funny, and my last WOT reminds me of it...

My wife and I attended a party about 5 years ago, where I met Lee, the husband of one of my wife's friends, Sheila, for the first time. The four of us are hanging out, and one or the other of them asked how my wife and I met, so I told them that story, about how I chased her for six months before she finally agreed to go out with me.

Then we asked how they met.

They were set up on a blind date by a mutual friend. Their first date was another party, a loud one, and Lee couldn't hear a damned thing Sheila said to him, at all, because of how loud it was. All night long, she's yelling stuff into his ear, he can't hear $hlt, and so he's just nodding along, throwing in an "uh-huh", or emphatic "yeah!" here and there.

He was just guessing, based on her expressions. He was utterly clueless about what she was actually saying.

So the next week, Sheila sees the mutual friend who set them up. The girl asks Sheila what she thought of Lee.

"Oh my God, he's great! He's such a good listener!"


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Very inspirational Doc. So much so that you have inspired me to not give up my dream of being a social media influencer. I will again resume sending you (and others) my copy/ paste emails no less then 15 times a day until you finally see me for the star that my mother always told me I was and send me free watches which I will happily take pictures wearing while I do super dope poses on my vintage skateboard. :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Very inspirational Doc. So much so that you have inspired me to not give up my dream of being a social media influencer. I will again resume sending you (and others) my copy/ paste emails no less then 15 times a day until you finally see me for the star that my mother always told me I was and send me free watches which I will happily take pictures wearing while I do super dope poses on my vintage skateboard. :-!


----------



## Watcher1988 (May 10, 2017)

LOL, what is the topic of this thread again??


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



yankeexpress said:


> Zelos used to be competitive until they ditched the better high beat 9015 movement for low beat. The others don't even come close.


The Mako uses the SW200... high beat. Just saying...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I really don't want this to turn into a comparative survey of NTH vs other micros' quality.

My prices are largely driven by my costs. Many micros simply aren't charging enough based on their costs, so there will always be people who look at my prices, compare them to another brand's prices, and come to the conclusion that I'm OVERcharging.

The simple reality is that most micros are UNDERcharging, for various reasons. I don't expect everyone to believe me, but unless you know our production costs, sales costs, and operating costs, AND you understand the margins needed not just to GROW a business, but to actually STAY in business, AND provide good service, you DON'T know what our prices should be.

Many micros, especially the lower-priced ones people like to compare us to, aren't built to last. The owners of those brands are making a fundamental miscalculation in their math, when determining their pricing, and they all realize it eventually, because the math is the same for all of us, and it's inescapable.

Simply comparing A to B, and deciding B is overpriced if it costs more than A, isn't sufficient as a means of judging prices.

If my prices were too high, we wouldn't be able to sell the watches, and we'd have to adjust. We literally can't keep the watches in stock, so it seems like the prices are actually a little low compared to the "total package" of product + service. We've produced almost 5,000 watches. I have ~25 in stock.

I'm not deliberately holding down supply in order to artificially pump up the price. The idea is ludicrous, because not having inventory to sell costs me money, when the guy who has money to spend on a new watch RIGHT NOW ends up buying something else instead. 

We'd have produced more, but we'd have needed more money than we had available. I'm moving away from using pre-orders to finance production costs. We're financing production on our own now. We started production on this next batch of Subs back in June. I ordered production of 900 NTH Subs "kits", with 650 of those to be assembled right away. Three years ago, I was producing in batches of 300.

There are other brands which can price lower because they have lower costs, because their quality is lower. Some don't offer the level of service we do. 

Do you get to play an unending game of "stump the chump" here on the forum with the other brand owners? Do they answer emails in real-time? 

Can they turn repairs around in one week, sometimes one day? 

Are they providing the same quality of images we are? Are they as transparent about what they're doing? Are they flying around the world in pursuit of product improvement? 

How long is the wait to get a watch when you order from one of them? We're typically shipping orders of in-stock items the same day, and our most recent pre-order wait was six weeks, compared to six months for most micros.

Not everyone cares about all that stuff, and would rather not pay to get it. I've had guys straight up tell me they don't care about good product photography or illustrations, and would rather I not provide it, so I can charge less. That's okay, there are companies who don't provide it, and therefore don't charge for it. Go buy from them. 

But I'm not willing to lower the bar on what we're offering. And it's all built into our prices, so if you want all that, you'll pay what we're asking. I'm not going to compete in a race to the bottom, because it's a race I don't want to win. I'm competing in a race to the top. I'm looking for ways to add value, not lower value.

There will always be that segment of the market which doesn't understand the "total package", because they can't see past a spec sheet. They expect Rolex quality for Timex money, and don't care about the business owner's ability to stay in business. They just want cheap product. They hate when someone like me advocates for sustainable pricing, so they troll, and constantly make the same argument - Brand A costs less, ipso facto, NTH is overpriced.

This ain't Brand A, pal. Go buy from Brand A. We'll see how well that works out for you and Brand A in the long run.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Will the timing of the District Time show give you the opportunity to show off any of the new Subs? Thinking of making the drive down to DC for it... looks like a very cool event.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Will the timing of the District Time show give you the opportunity to show off any of the new Subs? Thinking of making the drive down to DC for it... looks like a very cool event.


I hope to have them on display then, yes.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

For those of you persisting in your boycott of Facebook, you're missing out on getting a glimpse into the life stories of some pretty wild people.

For instance, Tony Connell is the real-life Allan Quatermain. The original "badass white-guy adventurer in the deepest, darkest corners of the African bush country".

His occasional posts in various groups are the stuff of legend. If he's making these stories up, and I don't think he is, but if he is, he's perfected the astoundingly deadpan, matter-of-fact delivery which makes them entirely believable.

His profile pic isn't posed. There are dozens of pics of him with the bush hat, the crocodile tooth necklace, the hatchet, the whole getup. He's Chuck Norris meets Gandalf, and he's hilarious for how unassumingly uber-masculine he is...










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My OCD got the better of me, forcing me to go and find our original exchange.
> 
> I emailed them about being my UK retail partner on October 1, 2014.
> 
> ...


Now my image of you has been shattered. From reading your posts I always thought you were smart, head smart and savvy, street smart. I envisioned you as a guy with a 4 year degree, got out of school, and went into financial services or insurance. Got some business chops and then decided to be your own boss. Worked hard, experiencing a level of success, and continues to do so to build your company and brand.
But the ranger medic story blew me away. Explains a lot, at least to me, where your drive and tenacity comes from, as well as your no bull$hit, take no prisoners attitude. Your wife, poor girl never had a chance.
Now I got to go to the DC event to complete the picture.
Most of all, thank you for your service.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RmacMD said:


> Now my image of you has been shattered. From reading your posts I always thought you were smart, head smart and savvy, street smart. I envisioned you as a guy with a 4 year degree, got out of school, and went into financial services or insurance. Got some business chops and then decided to be your own boss. Worked hard, experiencing a level of success, and continues to do so to build your company and brand.
> But the ranger medic story blew me away. Explains a lot, at least to me, where your drive and tenacity comes from, as well as your no bull$hit, take no prisoners attitude. Your wife, poor girl never had a chance.
> Now I got to go to the DC event to complete the picture.
> Most of all, thank you for your service.


Actually, I do have a four year degree. I enlisted after college. It's part of why I had a hard time in the Rangers. No one likes having a smartass guy from the Philly suburbs around when they're screwing the pooch. We're kind of a buzz kill for incompetents.

And when I got out of service, I spent the bulk of my sales career in financial services.

Those four professional designations? Certified Financial Planner, Chartered Financial Consultant, Chartered Life Underwriter, and Certified Options Advisor.

I did work hard, got some business chops, and decided to work for myself. I did really well as an employee, but my financial planning practice didn't work out, so I re-joined the ranks of those with bosses, until I was finally fed up and motivated enough to strike out on my own again, and haven't looked back since.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

More about that Tony...

The guy who started the Divers Watches group, Andreas Gregoriades, thought it would be cool to solicit members to answer some questions about themselves, so people would feel like they knew each other better, and make everyone play nice in the sandbox.

They posted a dozen or more of these "know your fellow members" profiles. And then it happened...Tony's dropped.

There was a wall of comments, many hilarious. I'll just give you a sample...










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Tman3000 (May 12, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You have to leave now.


Nope

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'm just laughing because that's exactly the sort of image I get in response when someone tells me their watch has some obvious bit of whatever under the crystal, and I ask them to send me a pic so I can see what they're talking about.
> 
> I swear I'm not joking.
> 
> ...


Sorry to warm that up, but I don't get it? They complain about what? About the structure on the dial or „the round white thing that covers the nth logo"?

I just thought it to be a cool reflection and that lighting angle caused the bezel to look light blue and with the brushed structure... I'm confused

This picture wasn't meant as criticism at all, I merely wanted to show a nice feature of that watch ?

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Sorry to warm that up, but I don't get it? They complain about what? About the structure on the dial or „the round white thing that covers the nth logo"?
> 
> I just thought it to be a cool reflection and that lighting angle caused the bezel to look light blue and with the brushed structure... I'm confused
> 
> ...


He was saying that people will complain about some small imperfection they noticed on the dial and send an unfocused or far away pic like yours (or worse) as proof. Wasn't saying anything against you or your pic.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Sorry to warm that up, but I don't get it? They complain about what? About the structure on the dial or „the round white thing that covers the nth logo"?
> 
> I just thought it to be a cool reflection and that lighting angle caused the bezel to look light blue and with the brushed structure... I'm confused
> 
> ...


I was making a joke, perhaps not one that was overly clear, or which translates well. But either way, it wasn't at your expense, I assure you. It was a fine pic, especially since you weren't complaining about anything, and it was only the fact that you acknowledged the huge reflection which made me think of similar pics I've gotten...

The joke is/was that sometimes I get people contacting us with complaints about something, and when we ask for pics showing what's being described, the images are often laughably inadequate.

Whatever the complaint is, you'd be surprised how often the pic meant to illustrate the issue has a huge reflection (as in your pic), obscuring the location of whatever they say is under the crystal, or the pic is out of focus, or shows a different location than the one described, or is taken from an absurd distance, or at an extremely obtuse angle, etc.

The "part 2" of the joke is/was about the opposite extreme - the 200x magnification macro-shot to show a microscopic speck of something, or something out of alignment by the smallest of increments, or some other deviation from "perfection".

Invariably, the person sending those pics is sending them to show us as an "obvious defect". The joke being - if the defect is so "obvious", why do we need an electron-microscope to see it?

It may only be funny to me and my watchmaker, and others who deal with similar issues. There's a small percentage of people in this hobby who have ludicrously unrealistic expectations, expecting absolute perfection in all things, and who will spend hours looking for the smallest of imperfections, without realizing that what they end up finding and reporting to us is almost always well within our QC standards.

Almost as often, we'll get people who are quite literally imagining some imperfection which simply isn't there.

If you put any watch under high enough magnification, and stare at it long enough, you're either going to find something which is imperfect in some way, or if not, you'll imagine you do, because the person motivated to examine a watch at length and under high magnification ALWAYS ends up with some complaint about it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I seem to be inspired to create one watch-related meme each month. Here's this month's edition, along with a few of my past favorites...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Commander tonight
View attachment 13438683


Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

It will be interesting to see if the changes to the market re: ETA causes Seiko to take another look at being a high-end movement supplier. The 4L was intended to be a drop in replacement for the 2892, but nobody really bought it other than Soprod, and Seiko's own 4L powered SARA models were a bust. Once the supply of ETAs dries up, and if getting hold of a SW300 becomes problematic, I wonder if we'll start seeing micros like Orion and Monta inquiring about a commercial version of the 6L35, which is basically a slightly different re-born 4L. I also wonder if it will cause Seiko to consider a less expensive 4Hz movement to compete with the 9015 and the 2824, frankly they really could use one. I would imagine there would also be plenty of business there if they can make it a drop-in replacement for the 2824 like the 4L was for its higher-end cousin. 

It will also be interesting to see if there's a reckoning with sort of mid-tier luxury Swiss brands using ETAs and Sellitas. As you said, Rolex, Tudor, and upper tier brands like JLC and Zenith will all be fine, they all have in-house movements and demand for Submariners, Black Bays, Reversos, and El Primero chronos is not going to end any time soon. Brands that have a defining style to them like Panerai and Cartier also have nothing to worry about. 

What's a Maurice Lacroix though, or a Raymond Weil? Why do they need to exist?


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

mplsabdullah said:


> He was saying that...





docvail said:


> I was making a joke


Thanks for the clarification  - first I felt misunderstood, now I feel stupid. You'd think, I should have acquired a basic reading comprehension over the years. But then, I was ridiculously tired after a 24h shift. So... nevermind.

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Azores today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## John Price (Feb 21, 2011)

I need to hunt down an Azores some day soon (so many watches, so limited budget!). A gent here in our local watch group has one and it's very impressive. Watch looks good in photos but in person it's SO much nicer.


----------



## Tman3000 (May 12, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> It will be interesting to see if the changes to the market re: ETA causes Seiko to take another look at being a high-end movement supplier. The 4L was intended to be a drop in replacement for the 2892, but nobody really bought it other than Soprod, and Seiko's own 4L powered SARA models were a bust. Once the supply of ETAs dries up, and if getting hold of a SW300 becomes problematic, I wonder if we'll start seeing micros like Orion and Monta inquiring about a commercial version of the 6L35, which is basically a slightly different re-born 4L. I also wonder if it will cause Seiko to consider a less expensive 4Hz movement to compete with the 9015 and the 2824, frankly they really could use one. I would imagine there would also be plenty of business there if they can make it a drop-in replacement for the 2824 like the 4L was for its higher-end cousin.
> 
> It will also be interesting to see if there's a reckoning with sort of mid-tier luxury Swiss brands using ETAs and Sellitas. As you said, Rolex, Tudor, and upper tier brands like JLC and Zenith will all be fine, they all have in-house movements and demand for Submariners, Black Bays, Reversos, and El Primero chronos is not going to end any time soon. Brands that have a defining style to them like Panerai and Cartier also have nothing to worry about.
> 
> What's a Maurice Lacroix though, or a Raymond Weil? Why do they need to exist?


I think it will cause a ripple amongst some of these brands which sit in a sort of no man's land - not quite high end but way more expensive than the average consumer wants to pay.

I'm curious as to what effect it will have on the sort of movement snobbery around "in-house" that's been going on for the past few years. Will more brands try to build movements from the ground up? The high investment costs makes me think that's unlikely, though we might see brands buy the rights to some movements out of Japan or China and start using them exclusively. I'm thinking something similar to the Tag / Seiko deal.

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

John Price said:


> I need to hunt down an Azores some day soon (so many watches, so limited budget!). A gent here in our local watch group has one and it's very impressive. Watch looks good in photos but in person it's SO much nicer.


https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4767771&share_fid=13788&share_type=t

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Tman3000 (May 12, 2015)

docvail said:


> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4767771&share_fid=13788&share_type=t
> 
> Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


Just looking at this watch, I noticed it has a nice looking extension mechanism on the clasp. Have you ever done that on any of the subs? Its hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like it is a little bit of a thick clasp as well.

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Tman3000 said:


> Just looking at this watch, I noticed it has a nice looking extension mechanism on the clasp. Have you ever done that on any of the subs? Its hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like it is a little bit of a thick clasp as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk


The clasp is thick but that's why the bracelet also has flared links that fit it better so you don't have a big gap between the bracelet and clasp. It works well. I had an Azores for a while. I loved it but I flip almost everything.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

John Price said:


> I need to hunt down an Azores some day soon (so many watches, so limited budget!). A gent here in our local watch group has one and it's very impressive. Watch looks good in photos but in person it's SO much nicer.


I found mine on the Janis Trading page on FB. It was a while ago. The seller had another. Just another place to look.


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

Doc, I tried looking back over the past few months of posts but gave up. Did you say that NTH will be releasing a new, non-sub watch this fall? Am I drunk?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tman3000 said:


> Just looking at this watch, I noticed it has a nice looking extension mechanism on the clasp. Have you ever done that on any of the subs? Its hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like it is a little bit of a thick clasp as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk


We haven't, and don't plan to.



WhiteSand said:


> Doc, I tried looking back over the past few months of posts but gave up. Did you say that NTH will be releasing a new, non-sub watch this fall? Am I drunk?


I didn't, and you may be.


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

Doc, 

quick question... if you make more watches, does your costs per watch come down? or am I only dreaming of one day cheaper NTH watches in the future?
along the same lines... do you start getting treated differently by your factories if you start having larger watch batch runs?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Quazi said:


> Doc,
> 
> quick question... if you make more watches, does your costs per watch come down? or am I only dreaming of one day cheaper NTH watches in the future?
> along the same lines... do you start getting treated differently by your factories if you start having larger watch batch runs?


That's two questions.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Quazi said:


> Doc,
> 
> quick question... if you make more watches, does your costs per watch come down? or am I only dreaming of one day cheaper NTH watches in the future?
> 
> along the same lines... do you start getting treated differently by your factories if you start having larger watch batch runs?


Not exactly.

All the factories price things on the assumption that you're making 500 pieces of the case, 50 of each dial, etc.

When I discovered that my old factory would have made 300, had I pressed them on it, I also found out that my costs on 300 would go UP by 10% per unit.

If I'm making 1,000, instead of 500, my costs don't really go down much per unit, if at all. However:

1. It takes me just as much time to deal with the process of making 300 watches as it does to make 1000 watches, so, all other things being equal, I'm being a lot more efficient with my time when I make 1000, rather than 300.

2. Maybe my factory values my business a little more than the next guy who's only making 300, and so they maybe cut me a little slack by not INCREASING my costs as quickly, which may be a savings I don't even realize I'm getting, or maybe they focus on getting my order done a little more quickly, because bigger orders mean more money for them, and if I get my order more quickly, time is money, so I'm making more.

To be fair (or to sound angry, depending on how you read tone in my comments) - YOU ALREADY ARE FREAKING GETTING CHEAPER NTH WATCHES, NOT IN THE FUTURE, BUT RIGHT FREAKING NOW.

Did you miss it when I said my movement costs when up by 1/3 right after I announced retail pricing on the first batch of NTH Subs, more than two years ago? Did you forget that I didn't immediately raise my prices then? Did you not notice that I hadn't raised them since? Do you think my costs haven't been going UP at all since then?

We just raised prices on the next batch - by a measly $25 - and we simultaneously added cost with the new bracelet and clasp!

How many times can someone say the watches punch above their price tag before you realize they're already a bargain at whatever price I'm currently charging?

And they are. You may have missed my recent post when I said I was undercharging on all of them, by about $50 per unit, across the board.

Everyone really needs to stop making all their price-is-fair-or-not-fair judgments based on comparing my prices to other micros'. Here's the bottom line - WE'RE *ALL* UNDERCHARGING!!!

I just happen to be under-charging by slightly less than many of my peers, because, you know, I really want to be in business longer than the warranty period.

If you can't afford to pay what I'm asking for them, I get it. It's more than I'd want to spend if I didn't own the business. I fell in love with Magrettes when I first joined this forum, but their price was way more than I could afford to pay.

I didn't piss in Dion's ear about making them cheaper. I understood - the price is the price - and so I figured I'd either have to spend more, or focus on things I could better afford.

If you can't afford them, I'm sorry, but I encourage you to look for something more affordable, or buy used. If you don't see the value in what I sell, and you don't think the price is justified, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Guys, please. I'm not getting rich doing this. I drive a POS car. My family doesn't live high on the hog. It's really insulting to me when people get up in my face about what I charge, when I know I'm dramatically under-paid for what I do, and the happiness we deliver.

Imagine I asked you to work harder, for less money, just as bluntly as that. You'd be insulted, too.


----------



## Woody36327 (Jan 26, 2018)

docvail said:


> That's two questions.


3!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seriously...imagine if you went to work every day, and all you heard from your boss was, "I love what you're doing, but you're obscenely overpaid..."

That's exactly what some of you guys do to me. If you're here, because you like what we do, awesome, it's great to have you, but please, for the love of God, don't ask me about charging less.

That's really effed up. It makes no sense, and makes you look like both an idiot and a cheapskate.

I may not have any full-time employees, but I have more than five other people I pay to do work from me. When I get their invoices, I pay them all, immediately, in full, and never balk about what they charge me. Good people are worth their weight in gold. I never look for the cheapest person to do a job, because I know from experience that I'll always end up regretting it, and realizing why they're the cheapest.

I root for other people's success. It's awesome to know so many people root for mine. I so don't need the negativity implied in those sorts of questions. Think about how you'd feel if you got put on the spot as often as I and other microbrands do - publicly, often by people who are completely anonymous, and who say the most ridiculous things, things none of them would have the balls to say in person, to another human being's face.

What I do isn't easy. Many attempt it and fail. I risked a lot - and lost a lot - in the course of starting my business. There are a few people here who could tell you more about my backstory, and know that I'm the opposite of overpaid, but they keep my confidence.

If you don't get why those sorts of questions would bother me, and trying to put yourself in my position doesn't help you understand, then I really don't know what else to say, and so I'll just leave you with this:


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

How to happy:

















Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

docvail said:


> Seriously...imagine if you went to work every day, and all you heard from your boss was, "I love what you're doing, but you're obscenely overpaid..."
> 
> View attachment 13440949


Sorry I guess my question didn't come out correctly..

I love your watches... the fact that you are constantly sold out is proof that your watches have tons of value.

One day I'll get an NTH ...

LOVE my commander 300... best watch ever... I even love it's movement..


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

How much of a discount can I get if you keep the spring bars? I have a few pairs laying around the house.


----------



## clarencek (Mar 25, 2008)

docvail said:


> Seriously...imagine if you went to work every day, and all you heard from your boss was, "I love what you're doing, but you're obscenely overpaid..."


I'm not a customer but love following micro brands. 
Reading through this thread it's clear - you produce a great product, you have a loyal customer base, but there's a segment of folks who can't afford your watches. 
I don't know what you can do to appease them as every product is unaffordable to some segment of customers. 
Is there a budget line with lower quality materials, poorer finishing, cheaper movements, etc? Maybe, but I doubt that's a good option for you.

Anyway, nothing really to add but I hope you don't get too frustrated by this. For folks who actually ideate, build, and release products - there are always critics.

I was looking back at the guy with 6 posts saying you profiteering off the watch community. Ha. I'll just say thanks for all you've done for this community (including before your business).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> How much of a discount can I get if you keep the spring bars? I have a few pairs laying around the house.


You have no idea how not out-of-the-ordinary that sounds, considering some of the emails and comments we get.

Sometimes it seems like there's a monthly theme to the crazy. Like, in June, it'll be people with their shorts in a wad over no-date dials over with-date movements. In July, it'll be people who count the bezel clicks while turning very, very, slowly.

The theme for August seems to be people who really, really hate bracelets, of any kind, and are apparently very upset that we don't sell watches without them.

Said it before, I'll say it again - somewhere between 90% and 99% of the people in this hobby are more or less "normal", reasonable, rational, etc. But it's that 1%-10% who are just absolutely bat$hlt-crazy who suck up so much of my time, and make me want to chuck my laptop out a window.

I didn't create these just because they struck me funny. Each is inspired by a true story:


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

clarencek said:


> I'm not a customer but love following micro brands.
> Reading through this thread it's clear - you produce a great product, you have a loyal customer base, but there's a segment of folks who can't afford your watches.
> I don't know what you can do to appease them as every product is unaffordable to some segment of customers.
> Is there a budget line with lower quality materials, poorer finishing, cheaper movements, etc? Maybe, but I doubt that's a good option for you.
> ...


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13441033


Is this before and after the batshit?

Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Is this before and after the batshit?
> 
> Typed on an IBM typewriter.
> 
> Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


Obvs both.....


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

From my own experience as a small business owner I have found the average person doesn’t have any idea of the costs associated with being a small business. Taxes are, have, and will continue to be of the biggest reasons for the cost of goods. 
Even if you are doing a type of work/business you love, if you cannot make money there is zero sense in continuing to do it. 
I don’t agree with your philosophy on everything Doc but as far as your pricing goes, it’s more than fair.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

clarencek said:


> I'm not a customer but love following micro brands.
> Reading through this thread it's clear - you produce a great product, you have a loyal customer base, but there's a segment of folks who can't afford your watches.
> I don't know what you can do to appease them as every product is unaffordable to some segment of customers.
> Is there a budget line with lower quality materials, poorer finishing, cheaper movements, etc? Maybe, but I doubt that's a good option for you.
> ...


Thanks for ideate, had to look it up to get the definition and pronunciation. This thread just delivers on so many levels.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

The. Absolute. Best!!


----------



## Brey17 (Mar 29, 2016)

hehehe, found a secondhand black Antilles. It is on the way from Canada. I am starting to collect mostly multi-time zone watches. This will be added to my Seiko Navigator Timer (slaved), Tudor BB GMT (true). It will be my first 12 hour bezel in my hands. Got a Seals Black 12 Hour coming as well, although I don't know when. The dimensions of the Antilles are fine! I hope it wears as well I as I am imagining in my mind, which is pretty much spandex on a Spice Girl.


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

Nikita70 said:


> From my own experience as a small business owner I have found the average person doesn't have any idea of the costs associated with being a small business. Taxes are, have, and will continue to be of the biggest reasons for the cost of goods.
> Even if you are doing a type of work/business you love, if you cannot make money there is zero sense in continuing to do it.
> I don't agree with your philosophy on everything Doc but as far as your pricing goes, it's more than fair.


I too am a small business owner and have a lot of respect for the people who take a chance and do their own thing. I don't know the stats, but most small businesses fail in the few first years. If you are not making money, then there is no point in going on and losing; especially if you have a family at home.

Chris, I don't own one of your watches yet, but I think that your pricing seems quite resasonable. Not only that, but you are more transparent than any other brand owner with the regards to the cost associated with producing a watch and running a micro brand business. Of course you are marking up our prices so you make a profit. Hopefully it's enough to keep you going.

People love trying to get a deal from a small business and haggle whenever they can. You would never think of negotiating with a huge company, but for some reason it's ok to take few bucks from the guy who is trying to stay afloat and support his family.

For example; here is an exchange with a customer from the other day (note that I have had this exchange countless times in the past as well; nearly word for word)
Customer: How much is x Service?
Me: That is $y. We have the lowest price around for that service, guaranteed. In fact if you find anyone who will offer it for less, we will beat that price.
Customer: ......Can you do any better? 
Me: No, we are already the lowest price

Hashtag facepalm


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

Was that long enough to qualify for a WOT?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WhiteSand said:


> Was that long enough to qualify for a WOT?


Nah. Maybe if you had the double-post-within-a-post, but otherwise, that's like, half a wall, at most.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Trust me, I'd give shorter answers if people would accept them, rather than asking the same questions over and over again, hoping the answers will change.

Or, just stop asking me questions.

Or, don't ask questions with complicated answers. 

Actually, just stop asking me questions.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Are riddles ok?


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Trust me, I'd give shorter answers if people would accept them, rather than asking the same questions over and over again, hoping the answers will change.
> 
> Or, just stop asking me questions.
> 
> ...


Why?


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

Doc Vail is not a physical specimen? I don't believe it.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I've been gone for a couple of days. Could someone sum up the last few pages? Hmm?


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I've been gone for a couple of days. Could someone sum up the last few pages? Hmm?


Mind numbing...from now on I'm just gonna look at the pics

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> I've been gone for a couple of days. Could someone sum up the last few pages? Hmm?


A very kind man came and explained to us that Doc is fleecing innocent WIS to fund his lavish lifestyle including but not limited to: a vintage 10+ year old car, a clean dog bowl, and wild trips to Tennessee.

It's also been established that Doc loves questions. Especially if they've been brought up before. Or better yet when said questions have answers found on his website.

And Doc once stalked a woman for 6 months until she agreed to marry him so he would leave her alone.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> A very kind man came and explained to us that Doc is fleecing innocent WIS to fund his lavish lifestyle including but not limited to: a vintage 10+ year old car, a clean dog bowl, and wild trips to Tennessee.
> 
> It's also been established that Doc loves questions. Especially if they've been brought up before. Or better yet when said questions have answers found on his website.
> 
> And Doc once stalked a woman for 6 months until she agreed to marry him so he would leave her alone.


You forgot to mention the clasps.

Ric


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mplsabdullah said:


> A very kind man came and explained to us that Doc is fleecing innocent WIS to fund his lavish lifestyle including but not limited to: a vintage 10+ year old car, a clean dog bowl, and wild trips to Tennessee.
> 
> It's also been established that Doc loves questions. Especially if they've been brought up before. Or better yet when said questions have answers found on his website.
> 
> And Doc once stalked a woman for 6 months until she agreed to marry him so he would leave her alone.


So, business as usual, pretty much.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)




----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> mplsabdullah said:
> 
> 
> > A very kind man came and explained to us that Doc is fleecing innocent WIS to fund his lavish lifestyle including but not limited to: a vintage 10+ year old car, a clean dog bowl, and wild trips to Tennessee.
> ...


Legit lol


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Been absent for a month or two, but it's reassuring to come back and find that everything here is still as angsty and snarky as always. Kinda like 'Cheers', only:

1) without the need for actual personal interaction 
2) alcoholism is less self-destructive than watch collecting.

Anyway, going on something like 4 months straight with this beautiful beast. The rest of my watch box is suffering from extreme neglect. You may have gone and done it this time, Doc.









Also, a question for Doc: Is there any possibility that there are some excess DR bracelets that may go up for sale on the accessories page eventually? I find that I really prefer my DR on the bracelet, so if possible I'd like to pick up a spare in case I ever need to swap out somewhere down the line.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Maybe we should spare Doc the hassle and just type the answer we all want. Then Doc can give us the question. A bizarro jeopardy kind of thing...
Could be fun? 

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That Devil Ray is a seriously awesome-looking watch. I have to admit to some serious remorse having sold mine. It just didn't work on my wrist, but man alive is it beautiful.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## MichealChang (Mar 28, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> .


Ohhh the lume man

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Alright lads, the time is almost upon us. I am torn between two subs. The Nacken renegade with date or the Skipjack no date. I am really having trouble with this. 
I like having a date window, and the renegade blends in seamlessly, but snowflake hands haven't yet grown on me.
I love everything about the no date skipjack aside from the minute hand. 
I am tempted to buy both, but this watch is going to be the one the woman gives me as a wedding gift next spring, so maybe I should let her decide.
Which one would you guys go with and why?

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> Alright lads, the time is almost upon us. I am torn between two subs. The Nacken renegade with date or the Skipjack no date. I am really having trouble with this.
> I like having a date window, and the renegade blends in seamlessly, but snowflake hands haven't yet grown on me.
> I love everything about the no date skipjack aside from the minute hand.
> I am tempted to buy both, but this watch is going to be the one the woman gives me as a wedding gift next spring, so maybe I should let her decide.
> Which one would you guys go with and why?


Renegade with date. Gorgeous dial, useful date, hands are Not mercedes, excellent lume.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Renegade with date or Skipjack with date.

I know, I'm not much help here. But I'm fairly certain that you can't go wrong with either choice.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Renegade w/ date.


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

X2-Elijah said:


> Renegade w/ date.


+1. Its a winning combo


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Renegade with date. Plenty of time to get behind the snowflake hand appeal. It’s acquired taste. 


Typed on an IBM typewriter.

Watch my watches on IG: @brrrzkrrz


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Okay okay. So I already have a couple black divers. And a couple blue (3 if you count the SKX009 which is so dark it doesn't count). But I have no blue/bronze/silver dial depending on lighting dials.
I think I am sold on the renegade. The woman likes both of them and didnt want to choose, but in my eyes, the renegade looks like nothing else out there.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Been absent for a month or two, but it's reassuring to come back and find that everything here is still as angsty and snarky as always. Kinda like 'Cheers', only:
> 
> 1) without the need for actual personal interaction
> 2) alcoholism is less self-destructive than watch collecting.
> ...


I don't think I have any extra. Maybe one piece. Doubtful I'd sell it. Probably best to keep it, just in case.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I don't think I have any extra. Maybe one piece. Doubtful I'd sell it. Probably best to keep it, just in case.


Fair enough, just checking. Thanks for the response.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Doc, will the Santa Cruz ever be reissued? Torn I didn't pull the trigger when they were available. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I dunno.

Find another 99 people who want one, we'll make another 100.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Santa Cruz models tend to pop up every now and then used on f29. It's worth keeping an eye out there.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

October yet? o|


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Nazario Sauro incoming 🙂


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Whoa, they are starting to ship out the new Nazarios? WOWOWOWW


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Whoa, they are starting to ship out the new Nazarios? WOWOWOWW


Well, by "incoming," I mean "incoming... eventually" 

(October)


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

More Nazarios? Not the Sauro. Or was 25 all there will be forever?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> More Nazarios? Not the Sauro. Or was 25 all there will be forever?


Of the original 25 Nazarios, with the black waffle dial, there were 25, and we said that's all there would ever be.

Peeps shouted out for more, so we made the Nazario Sauro - 50 pieces, and I'm guessing that's all there will ever be.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> From my own experience as a small business owner I have found the average person doesn't have any idea of the costs associated with being a small business. Taxes are, have, and will continue to be of the biggest reasons for the cost of goods.
> Even if you are doing a type of work/business you love, if you cannot make money there is zero sense in continuing to do it.
> I don't agree with your philosophy on everything Doc but as far as your pricing goes, it's more than fair.


Taxes are a bummer. Because I'm self-employed, I get whacked with the "self-employment" tax of double payroll taxes.

A bigger pet peeve is that I have to file taxes 17 times per year.

Yes, 17 times.

Joint tax returns for me and my wife, at the federal and state level, ever year - that's 2.

Tax returns for the business, federal and state - that's another 2, for a total of 4. Yes, even though there's no tax due at the business level, because it's a "pass-through" for tax purposes, I still have to file returns, even if no taxes are due.

Because I don't get a paycheck, there's no income tax withholding for me. As such, I have to file estimated quarterly income tax payments, at both the federal and state level, so that's 8, plus the first 4 above, equals 12.

I have to file a local business privilege tax once a year. And I pay tax on my revenues, not my profits, so even if I make no profit at all, and even though my home office uses no local resources, the township gets to wet their beak - that's 13.

I have to file state sales tax quarterly - there's 17.

That doesn't even count the import taxes I pay on every new production of watches and boxes.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

You should just buy a long fur coat and hustle watches tax free like Lenny from Good Times.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> You should just buy a long fur coat and hustle watches tax free like Lenny from Good Times.


www.janistrading.coat?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

MikeyT said:


> More Nazarios? Not the Sauro. Or was 25 all there will be forever?





docvail said:


> Of the original 25 Nazarios, with the black waffle dial, there were 25, and we said that's all there would ever be.
> 
> Peeps shouted out for more, so we made the Nazario Sauro - 50 pieces, and I'm guessing that's all there will ever be.


At first I had my heart set on a pre-owned Nazario.

But since I've owned several different Subs at this point, I've come to find that the more creative designs are the ones that most speak to me.

The Nazario Sauro is a lighter-nod-to-history than the Nazario, which I now think I prefer (more innovative dial design, hands, etc.). I'm also feeling gray dials at the moment.

That said, the Nazario is still sweet.


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

Preordered the Bahia. I'm excited to have a NTH back in rotation. I found an old picture of my Nacken Vintage Blue a few weeks ago, and forgot how beautifully thin the case was.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Of the original 25 Nazarios, with the black waffle dial, there were 25, and we said that's all there would ever be.
> 
> Peeps shouted out for more, so we made the Nazario Sauro - 50 pieces, and I'm guessing that's all there will ever be.


OK. I guess my Cali dial Jones will have to be satisfied elsewhere. LOL


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Even though I am a Bigfoot sized person my sweet spot is a light 40mm watch. My original waffle dial Nazario is about as comfortable as they come. It’s a keeper.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> At first I had my heart set on a pre-owned Nazario.
> 
> But since I've owned several different Subs at this point, I've come to find that the more creative designs are the ones that most speak to me.
> 
> ...


It's white, not gray.


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

Glad I got the chance to put in my pre-order for the Nazario Sauro I've been moaning about (seriously, thank you for bringing the design back, it fills an oddly, nearly empty space in the market for an, in my opinion, offbeat but classic design style). 
Very nice renders too, I've been ogling it on the site ever since. 
Now the long wait begins.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Damn Skippy! One Skipjack ordered!


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> It's white, not gray.


Ya? Hard to tell exactly what's going on in the renders, other than a light shade:

















(Don't take the "renders only" or "monitor calibration" bait, Doc.)

I'm looking forward to it regardless--been whining in this thread for another California dial release for awhile, and the "AMERICA?! **** YA!" color scheme sounds cool/different. And I'm no stranger to flipping a Sub if it doesn't get the wrist time someone else will give it


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Welp, I'm in Hong Kong.

Big woop!

Getting here was like a long visit with the in-laws.

My flight out of Philly was seriously delayed, by like, half a day. First it was bad weather in Chicago preventing any flights coming in or going out. When they finally let us board our plane, it turns out the toilets were busted, so we had to wait for a new plane.

And wait, and wait, and wait. It was agony.

By the time we got to Chicago, I'd missed my flight to Hong Kong.

Ruh-roh!

My choices were:

A: Spend the night in Chicago, and arrive in HK a day later, precisely when pre-orders were meant to start.

B: Fly through LA, which would add at least another 10 hours total to what was supposed to be just a 20 hour trip.

So I get to LA, and despite having paid extra for an aisle seat in an exit row on my flight to HK, I had to re-book on a different flight, so...middle seat, non-exit row for me.

It wasn't too bad. Still premium economy, with a little extra legroom. It was worth it just to get off an AA flight and onto the airline I'd originally booked with - Cathay Pacific, or as I call it, "the Cadillac of Airlines".

Instead of arriving at ~8pm Sunday, I get in at ~5:30am Monday.

No courtesy shuttle to my hotel, so it's the regional rail from the Airport to Central HK, then the subway to Wanchai, the section of HK with the convention center any my wonderful, semi-luxury hotel - or so I thought.

It was already pushing 90 degrees at 6am, and humid as hell. Still wearing Saturday's clothes, I spent 20 minutes walking around Wanchai, trying to get my bearings and find my hotel. If it were nighttime, all the clubs and bars would be open, and I'd be able to navigate by club girls, but at 6am, the streets are a veritable ghost-town.

Anyhoo...I find my hotel...the same one Sujain and Jonathan Bordell from Page & Cooper are staying in, a two-minute walk from the convention center. The Hotel Fancy Pants, I'll call it, just so any of my competitors or trolls reading this don't know where I stay in HK.

I'm dying to get to my room, crank up the air conditioning, use the batroom, get a shower, and crawl into bed. The hotel doesn't have my reservation.

What? Are you jerking my chain? I'm CERTAIN I booked this joint 6 months ago. We're standing there for 20 minutes trying to figure this out.

I check my emails for the record. Found it. Here you go. Crap, that isn't it. That's my reservation from two years ago. Search my gmail. Here we go. See here, the Hotel Fancy, booked through Expedia. Now gimme my room.

"Sir, that reservation is for the Hotel Fancy, in Causeway Bay, ten minutes walk up the street. This is the Hotel Fancy PANTS."

Uhm...can't you just phone them and move my reservation here?

"Sorry, sir, but we are not affiliated in any way."

Are you $hltting me? No way I'm walking another ten minutes in this heat. Can you get me a cab?

I'd just gotten into the cab when I remembered - I used up what little HK dollars I had from my last trip to add funds to my regional rail pass, just so I could get here. I only had 20 more HK dollars to pay the cab. With the exchange rate, that's like, 3 bucks, maybe less. I actually had to borrow HKD 10 dollars from the bell hop just to pay for my ride.

So I get to the "right" hotel, and...it sucks. Small room, small chair, small desk, crappy mini-bar (but it's free - all 3 cans of soda and the juice-box of lemonade!), nothing close by (or so I thought)...

I had plans to meet up with Sujain, Chip, Hong Kong Ed, and a vendor we all know for Korean BBQ. The plan was to link up at 6, eat, then I'd duck out to come back to my hotel to start the pre-order.

I email them all - Guys, I screwed up. I'm in a different hotel, the Hotel Fancy, over in Causeway Bay. I'll link up with you, but I may have to duck out earlier.

Then I get the Whatsapp message from Chip...

"Chris, are you in the Hotel Fancy, number 120 on Gloucester? I'm in an AirBNB right next door!"

Alright, so that's cool.

Korean BBQ was awesome. I had no idea how awesome it could be. Back home, my one and only experience with Korean BBQ was my wife putting some meat in a slow-cooker with a jar of store-bought Korean BBQ sauce. Yeah, that ain't Korean BBQ, at all.

The restaurant basically brought out half a cow and a quarter pig worth of raw meat, plus some crazy-spicy kimchi and some other veggies. Then they fire up a skillet in the middle of the table, and leave us to it. We took turns cooking meat and just tossing it into each other's bowls, plus clinking glasses of Sopporo beer every five minutes.

Sujain, our OEM friend, Chip, Ed, and yours truly, enjoying the BBQ:









This morning, via Whatsapp:

Suj: Breakfast guys? I was thinking of McDonald's by the Korean BBQ place.

Me: You had me at Mickey D's. Let's go get our McMuffin on...

Chip: McD's in Hong Kong? You know who you are...

Suj: Let's just link up at Lockhart and Fleming, and see what's in the neighborhood.

Me: So...we're not getting McMuffins? Chip, I'll meet you downstairs on the street in five.

Chip has to be the most chill Asian on the planet when it comes to times for meeting up. I'm ex-military. If I say "five", that's four minutes, thirty seconds. For Chip, that's 8 to 10 minutes. I think maybe he spends too much time on his hair. Me, I just throw on a hat, and I'm good to go.

Sure enough, we end up at our usual place, the Flying Pan, home of 24/7 western breakfast:









Whatever calories I burn by walking around HK are easily made up for with the food. When I left the guys last night, they still had 1/8th of cow and 1/12th of a pig left to eat.

It takes 10 minutes to order breakfast at the Flying Pan because of all the extras they throw in. The waitress must get exhausted reminding people, you get two sides and a drink with that.

And also because Chip takes five minutes to decide how he wants his eggs cooked. I look at him like he's Rain Man - he just ran the categories and racked up a bazillion points, but he's somehow surprised when Trebek announces it's time for Final Jeopardy.

Bro - it's eggs. How are you not prepared to answer that question?


----------



## SKrishnan (Dec 24, 2012)

Good to be catching up again! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cerberus today








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Ya? Hard to tell exactly what's going on in the renders, other than a light shade:
> 
> View attachment 13449781
> 
> ...


The dial is full-lume, with BG W9, which is pure white, and glows blue.

Gray lume which glows blue is possible, but it's white. If it looks gray, it could be your monitor calibrations.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> The dial is full-lume, with BG W9, which is pure white, and glows blue.
> 
> Gray lume which glows blue is possible, but it's white. If it looks gray, it could be your monitor calibrations.


Well, if you end up releasing a gray lume dial which glows blue in the future, I expect you to put my username on the dial above the 6 à la The Urban Gentry.

Happy to post a YouTube video explaining what it's like to be so addicted to collecting that you drop $650 on a watch when you're not sure about the dial color, to justify the dial tag.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mil6161 said:


> Cerberus today
> View attachment 13449811
> 
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Bill Jones School of Photography for the win!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also...Hong Kong hotels are pioneering the field of needlessly complex shower technology. If you have anything hiding in your "back yard", the showers here will find it...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, thanks to everyone who pre-ordered one of the new Subs, whether it was from me or one of our retail partners. 

Now, I need to get cleaned up and head over to the show for the day. I'll try to take and post some pics if I see anything cool, but the vendors discourage picture-taking, for some reason, so it could end up being me, Chip and Suj screwing around more than anything else.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

So I ended up going with the Renegade, even though I told myself I wouldn't buy a watch with snowflake hands unless it was a Tudor. I am sure they will grow on me, and the rest of the watch is very much it's own beast. Nobody is going to mistake it for a Tudor just because of the hands.
Now I just have to wait for October, and THEN until NEXT spring to wear it because My fiancee wanted to give me a watch on our wedding day. Since she can't afford any of the Swiss brands, I went with the next best thing.
I wonder how many people received an NTH sub as a wedding gift from their significant other. I might just be the first!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Dub Rubb said:


> So I ended up going with the Renegade, even though I told myself I wouldn't buy a watch with snowflake hands unless it was a Tudor. I am sure they will grow on me, and the rest of the watch is very much it's own beast. Nobody is going to mistake it for a Tudor just because of the hands.
> Now I just have to wait for October, and THEN until NEXT spring to wear it because My fiancee wanted to give me a watch on our wedding day. Since she can't afford any of the Swiss brands, I went with the next best thing.
> I wonder how many people received an NTH sub as a wedding gift from their significant other. I might just be the first!
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


Well prior to getting my Näcken I eyed the BB58. I then went with the Näcken and don't regret it even after I had the chance to try the BB58 on in a shop. The BB58 is really great and if I could choose anything from the Rolex/Tudor family I would get it. What really sets the Näcken apart are the details. Someone already mentioned it here but the hand length and marker position is fantastic. Hour hand does not overlap with big feta markers and blends in, second hand square touches the big and small feta markers with one corner precisely. Another part that makes the Rolex Sub iconic is the case shape.

I noticed there are tons of beautiful watches if you look at them from the top. When viewing the side you will notive that either the lug shape or thickness do not blend in nicely. This is certainly a matter of taste but imo no other vintage sub case shape nails it as good as the Näcken. The Seiko MM300 is one example... I love the dial and case shape from above but wish they could have shaved at least 5mm of (especially bad looking if your wrists are thin and wide) That is my opinion and I know some here prefer thick watches but yeah.

Here a comparison of what I mean:








and here the perfection! Notice how nicely the lugs go downward.


----------



## Brey17 (Mar 29, 2016)

Woohoo! Just received this slick Antilles. Set the bezel to 16 hours back from Pacific DST.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Good day at the show yesterday, though nothing too earth-shattering in importance. No "Eureka!" moments of thinking we finally found the perfect supplier for something.

The most thrilling moment came when Chip and I stumbled over the company making clasps for some of the better micros, mine included. They had the Tropics clasp, complete with the NTH logo, but coated in PVD, prominently displayed in their booth's external window.

Actually, there were some other cool things that happened or things we saw, but not many which would be entertaining to re-tell. One OEM turned out to be Asian-American, and knew me and Chip from the forums. We're not used to people recognizing our names.

Sujain and I ran into Alan Tsao from Tsao Baltimore and Danny Le from Variant. Some days I think there was some rule change, prohibiting non-Asians from starting micro-brands, and I was given a "grandfather" exception.

Anyway, after our convo with them ended, Sujain and I were left feeling like the "old guys" in the room, after hearing them ask us the same questions we were trying to figure out when we started five years ago.

Dinner and drinks with Chip and Sujain again last night. We were joined by Jonathan Bordell from Page & Cooper. "Tempest Ben" from Tempest stopped by to have one round with us, then took off. Apparently he was flying to Bali for a friend's wedding this morning.









Our old hangout, "The Dog Haus" isn't the Dog Haus anymore. It's now called "the Stadium", or something like that. Other than the name and the decor, not much else seems to have changed, so I think it's now our new hangout.

Dinner ended up being at some Michelin-rated hole-in-the-wall which is apparently known for its roast duck, or roast goose, or some other sort of roast beast. Suj said he passed by the other day, and there was a line out the door to get in. They actually tried to turn us away, but - once again - Chip whipped out some Cantonese on them, and swung us a table.

Apparently, the restaurant had run out of food. All they had left was chicken. Fine, we said, we'll eat chicken. Three minutes after we sat down, they brought out two plates of meat, both of which were definitely not chicken, but they were both delicious, and were followed by another huge plate, which was chicken, plus rice and fried noodles.

I skipped lunch yesterday, because breakfast was huge, and Suj and I'd been drinking for two hours before we went to eat. We were apparently looking for some other restaurant Chip found by way of Google maps. I honestly didn't care what or where we ate, just so long as we got there quickly, because I was tired, hungry, drunk, and had to piss like a racehorse.

Chip was navigating, but the thing is, Chip sucks at navigation. He clearly had no clue where we were going. Although he speaks Cantonese, he can't read a lick of it, so all the signs could be for coin-op laundries for all he knows.

It was only an unwillingness to change direction which finally led us to the hole-in-the-wall, and it was only Chip's Cantonese which kept me from knocking his a$$ out for making me walk that far while drunk and needing to urinate badly. If he hadn't gotten us that table, it would have definitely gotten ugly.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> www.janistrading.coat?


I'd click it.


----------



## MstrDabbles (Mar 3, 2014)

Love these "Tales from the East"
Question Doc: on the Skipjack, how far does the lume on the minute hand reach?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MstrDabbles said:


> Love these "Tales from the East"
> Question Doc: on the Skipjack, how far does the lume on the minute hand reach?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All the way to the end of the lume patch on the minute hand, in the horizontal plane, and all the way from your wrist to your eyes, in the vertical plane.

I'm not sure if I understand the question. We provided pics, and they're usually pretty accurate. Look at the pics, you should see how far the lume reaches on the hand.

EDIT/PS - Don't know if everyone realizes it, but our website is enabled for zoom-in on the pics...









How far does the lume extend? Look at the pics - that far.

What shade of blue is it? Look at the pics - that blue.

Is the dial white or silver or gray? Look at the pics - you tell me.


----------



## MichealChang (Mar 28, 2016)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> It was only an unwillingness to change direction which finally led us to the hole-in-the-wall, and it was only Chip's Cantonese which kept me from knocking his a$$ out for making me walk that far while drunk and needing to urinate badly. If he hadn't gotten us that table, it would have definitely gotten ugly.


Fight of the century - WUS edition. All we need now is a production team, a ring and 6 months of training. Don't need to be a real fight, Can do fake wrestling like WWE.

I'd watch it for $1 streamed over Facebook live using a crappy phone :-d


----------



## MstrDabbles (Mar 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> All the way to the end of the lume patch on the minute hand, in the horizontal plane, and all the way from your wrist to your eyes, in the vertical plane.
> 
> I'm not sure if I understand the question. We provided pics, and they're usually pretty accurate. Look at the pics, you should see how far the lume reaches on the hand.


Just realized that they are inspired by the Omega broad arrow hands and that the lume doesn't reach the minute track by design. D'oh.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MstrDabbles said:


> Just realized that they are inspired by the Omega broad arrow hands and that the lume doesn't reach the minute track by design. D'oh.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't like to think of any handset as being "_____ [brand] hands".

Omega didn't invent the arrow-head hand, as far as I know, and I definitely know we weren't trying to emulate Omega specifically when we chose that handset.

Our choices for handsets aren't unlimited, we know what length we want, then we go hunting for something the correct length which looks right. It's not like the handset supplier's catalog has them listed like "Rolex homage? Page 23. Omega homage? Page 23. Tag Homage? GTFO."

That minute hand wasn't even paired with that hour hand in their catalog. It was just under "dauphine hands". Here's a pic from their site:









Sometimes, in fact frequently, we have to mix-and-match hour and minute hands to find the combo we want. The DevilRay hands weren't a paired set, as a recent example.

Someone always thinks the lume patches are too short, and gets their shorts in a mild twist over it.

The hands' length is dictated by the design and dial diameter. The lume patches have to be smaller than the hands' dimensions, obviously. The lume patches will thus be shorter than the hands, so if the minute hand just reaches the minute track, the lume patch likely won't.

That's not "by design", that's "by default". It isn't "too short", it's "just how it is".


----------



## MstrDabbles (Mar 3, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I don't like to think of any handset as being "_____ [brand] hands".
> 
> Omega didn't invent the arrow-head hand, as far as I know, and I definitely know we weren't trying to emulate Omega specifically when we chose that handset.
> 
> ...


Love how it looks. Can't wait to get it this October.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

First there was Sundick, but when the SPF ran dry, they got Perfect Hard.










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not much worth talking about today, at least not so far.

I spent the morning working in my room, spent maybe 20 minutes putzing around the convention hall and looking at samples, then went to get dim sum with Suj, Chip, and Jonathan from Page & Cooper.

Wes and Cullen from Nodus invited me to get beer with them and John Mack from recent startup Traska, but I passed. I have a complex formula I use to decide when I'll drink based on how early in the day it is, how far I have to walk, and the ambient temperature. It turns out that 3pm, 8/10 of a mile, and 90 degrees is too early/too far/too hot.

The brand isn't as well known on WUS, but I'm friendly with Justin Eterovich of Blacklist, and it's his first year attending the show. A comment he made on one of my FB posts reminded me he was here, so I headed back to the convention center after dim sum, and talked a little shop with him while he ate a sammich.

Jonathan happened to walk by, and because he did, it turns out Steve Chan of Crafter Blue was two tables over. He and Jonathan had met up earlier, apparently. 

Chip, Suj and Jonathan all had meetings this afternoon, so after Justin headed off to his own meeting, I strolled through the "Salon" section of the show, where the glitz and glamour is. Justin had told me Stan from Deep Blue was at their booth, and I wanted to meet him.

So, I met Stan. Super-cool dude. He reminded me a lot of my one uncle from NY, who taught me the retail business. Being an only child, I tend to look for "big brother figures" in business, and I could see Stan being one, like Chris Wiegand and Fred Amos.

There are 20 or more of us linking up for dinner/drinks at 6pm tonight, and then the big meetup with all the local WIS is tomorrow, when we're expecting more than 30 people.

I'll try to post some pics. It should be a good time. I can't remember ever hearing about 20-ish micro owners getting together like this.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> Well prior to getting my Näcken I eyed the BB58. I then went with the Näcken and don't regret it even after I had the chance to try the BB58 on in a shop. The BB58 is really great and if I could choose anything from the Rolex/Tudor family I would get it. What really sets the Näcken apart are the details. Someone already mentioned it here but the hand length and marker position is fantastic. Hour hand does not overlap with big feta markers and blends in, second hand square touches the big and small feta markers with one corner precisely. Another part that makes the Rolex Sub iconic is the case shape.
> 
> I noticed there are tons of beautiful watches if you look at them from the top. When viewing the side you will notive that either the lug shape or thickness do not blend in nicely. This is certainly a matter of taste but imo no other vintage sub case shape nails it as good as the Näcken. The Seiko MM300 is one example... I love the dial and case shape from above but wish they could have shaved at least 5mm of (especially bad looking if your wrists are thin and wide) That is my opinion and I know some here prefer thick watches but yeah.


The flat polished sides are how Subs have looked for quite awhile. On a relatively thin watch like the Submariner itself or the BB58 I think it looks fine. The Black Bay bezels are _substantially_ thinner than the NTH bezels, which has the effect of making the case look taller, even though the 58 is only a few tenths of a mm taller than the NTH Subs are. On the regular in-house Black Bay though, it has the effect of making the watch look like a truck from the side. My old Evant Tropic had the same problem (very thin bezel combined with tall, slab sided case) which made it look like a tuna can. I ended up selling it because I could never really get past that.

Monta's original Eterna based OK was roughly the same height as a 41mm Black Bay, but because the height was more evenly shared between the bezel and case, it looked better overall from the side. The BB58 is also my favorite current Tudor design, but I have trouble with the aluminum bezel for $3600. I know why they do it, but that's one of the reasons why I've leaned towards the gilt dial 2nd gen OK instead, that and it costs literally half as much.

As for the MM300, it has that Japanese pro diver thing of "moar watch = moar better." I love the look of both the spring drive and the hi-beat GS divers, but unless you have at least a 7.5" wrist, they'll just look ridiculous. Seiko really needs to follow up on the SLA017 with a modern design that's rationally sized. The SLA025 isn't that.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I don't like to think of any handset as being "_____ [brand] hands".
> 
> Omega didn't invent the arrow-head hand, as far as I know, and I definitely know we weren't trying to emulate Omega specifically when we chose that handset.
> 
> ...


The lume patches look like pretty much every other dauphine style handset I've seen, and it's not like anyone will confuse the minute and hour hands. That was one of the issues I had with my now departed Sea Wolf. On that watch it looked like they _did_ cut off the lume patch on the minute hand before they had to (though I could certainly be wrong about that), and it was very easy to mistake one hand for the other unless you looked closely. The '50s original was the same way.


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

While Chris is in the Far East, I've been galavanting around Germany with my Näken Renegade (and my daughter, and my wife, when she isn't busy at multiple conferences and/or Skyping home for work meetings (incl. one scheduled for tonight at 10 pm our time).

At the Karlsruhe Zoo today. There are worse places to be the babysitter.










Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> Not much worth talking about today, at least not so far.
> 
> I spent the morning working in my room, spent maybe 20 minutes putzing around the convention hall and looking at samples, then went to get dim sum with Suj, Chip, and Jonathan from Page & Cooper.
> 
> ...


Stan is the man always great CS I visited his HQ before it moved to Brooklyn have a few of his t100 pieces

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## sticky (Apr 5, 2013)

Recently got an email from Page & Cooper in the U.K. saying that they were stocking the NTH Subs. Congratulations Chris.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Madness.

Adding pics from last night on my phone. I'll be back in a minute to edit the post and add commentary...

Alright, so, where was I?

Oh yes, madness.

Last I saw, we had 21 people who'd RSVP'd about last night, yet we somehow ended up with at least 2 dozen or more. I think some may have left before we thought to take a group shot.










Who was there, as best as I can get their names and brands, from left to right -

Danny Le from Variant (USA - VA)
Steve Chan of Undive/Crafter Blue (Hong Kong)
Tõnis Leissoo of Estonia1918 (Estonia)
Roy Klokk (winner, best surname for a microbrand owner) of Valhalla of Norway (Norway, duh)
Next to Roy, gray t-shirt, I think that's Steve Chan's partner. I didn't catch his name, but he had some nice samples of Seiko 62MAS-homage-ish watches, with a brand he's launching soon, something like "Allant", maybe? (Hong Kong)
Tall guy in the back, Wifried, from Atelier Wen, something to do with Chinese made dress watches with Chinese movements to play up the Chinese heritage, something along those lines. (European, I think lives in China)
Down in front, young lady with dark hair, Sonya Tsao, wife of Alan Tsao of Tsao Baltimore, standing next to her, in the plaid shirt. (US -MD)
Behind them, blue shirt and beard, Justin Eterovich of Blacklist (US - CA)
Way in the back, over Justin's shoulder, looking like part of the wood paneling, Nirupesh "NJ" Joshi, of recent startup Bangalore Watch Co (India)
Next to Justin, gray shirt, Jon Mack of recent startup Traska (From US - FL, currently living in China)
Way in the back, can hardly make him out with the light right behind him - Sujain (Australia)
Next to Suj, beard, Jonathan Bordell of retailer Page & Cooper (UK)
Next to Jonathan, gray t-shirt, Cullen Chen of Nodus (USA - CA)
Next to Alan Tsao, hunched over the chair, sleeves rolled up, Glenn Lim, of recent startup Ayers (Hong Kong)
Way in the back, tall guy, Clemens Helberg, of Helberg/Kalmar/H20 (Germany)
In front of him, next to Cullen, orange shirt, Wesley Kwok of Nodus (USA - CA)
White shirt, beard and glasses, Bartosz Knop of Balticus (Poland)
Peeking over Bartosz's shoulder, Gaurav Mehta of Jaipur Watch Co (India)
Down in front, green "B" hat - MX Yang, of retailers Watch Wonderland and Red Army Watches (Singapore)
In back, next to Gaurav - Felix Lam, I think, of Phantoms, very sci-fi looking watches (Asian, living in Canada, I think)
Next to Felix, didn't catch his name, owns a recent startup making vintage-looking military/trench/pilot-style watches with Miyota movements.
Young lady in front, Clara Lim. You may remember her as the person who posted that video of me and Chip dancing at Indian Elvis's bar two years back. She used to work for an OEM, but recently she switched jobs to some sort of assembly operation, I didn't catch the whole story, but I think the shop may be "Eitri" (Hong Kong).
Next to Clara, in back, Nicolas Lehotzky of Waldhoff (Switzerland)
Glasses, next to Clara, in front, Leonardo Tsai of Brokkr & Eitri (Hong Kong)
Chip - Aevig (Netherlands)
Yours truly
Hong Kong Ed, Eddy Tse (Hong Kong, duh)










Couldn't count all the watches there.










Clara's a sweetheart, but I'm not putting the moves on her. Her move is to put a watch on, say nice things about it, then walk away, still wearing the watch. Gotta keep an eye on your product with "Light-fingers-Lim" around.










Steve Chan of Undive/Crafter Blue, that guy with the Miyota-based trench watches, Steve's partner, Tonis of Estonia










Me and Roy Klokk. His brand seems to be all about vikings, runes, self-eating dragon-snakes, and something about a farm he grew up on, with a watchmaker shop next door, both overlooking some legendary fjord, and his plans for a future Klokkfarm hybrid agricultural-horological business.

I'm not entirely kidding, but he was a a super-nice guy and very enthusiastic, even as he was telling me he'd add me to a Norwegian-speaking group on Facebook, where I wouldn't be allowed to post any pics of my own watches.










Clemens Helberg and MX Yang of Watch Wonderland










Bartosz of Balticus, NJ of Bangalore, host with the most.










Cullen of Nodus, Justin of Blacklist, John of Traska, Danny of Variant.










Surprise selfie with me and Wes of Nodus.










People.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

This is Hong Kong. Doc is in Hong Kong. Enough said!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So, big crowd.

Random thinks -

There was a lot of interesting product represented there last night, a lot from brands which don't get a lot of love on the forum. It's interesting to see how these brands are launching and growing market awareness. There was a lot of talk about Kickstarter, pre-orders, how you do this, how you do that, branding, etc. 

It's weird to talk to people you've never met, yet who seem to know a good bit about you, or even weirder, say "you're a legend". I'm a fat guy who works from a spare bedroom in his house. 

It's also a little weird to have people show you something they love, and are excited about, but you really don't know what to say about it, because you don't get it, or there's just not much to get. Some folks have a decent product and just need to build their business, but some guys, you look at what they have, and you don't know where to start with any advice.

It's interesting to see which "more established" brands the newer startups admire and are modeling themselves after. It's clear the guys from Nodus are attending Halios University. I think Jon from Traska is enrolling next semester. Justin from Blacklist and a bunch of other guys should be paying Sujain for his advice on building a brand beyond WIS. 

Jason/Halios and Suj/Melbourne are the two opposite extremes of the microbrand spectrum, in my view, and in terms of WIS popularity versus commercial scale-ability. 

If it seems I'm not spending much time at the show itself, or talking much about it, the truth is I'm not. I don't need to source much stuff now that I'm happy with my OEM relationship. I've spent as much time walking around, laughing at company names as I have actually looking at samples and talking to vendors.

But getting here every other year is valuable because it gives me an opportunity to meet with peers and vendors, get ideas, and think more about my business. I always come home with a renewed sense of mission, and what I want to do to take things to the next level.


----------



## MstrDabbles (Mar 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> So, big crowd.
> 
> Random thinks -
> 
> ...


You make an impression Doc. You can be brutally honest. Something a newbie who has a bunch of yes men around them may need.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

New blog post up on the site, for anyone interested. 

I use the "k" word, rhymes with block off.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Tall guy in the back, French guy, didn't catch his name well enough, or his brand name, something to do with Chinese made dress watches with Chinese movements to play up the Chinese heritage, something along those lines. (European, I think lives in China)


Sounds like Robin, from Atelier Wen, maybe? He has a thread in the Chinese Mechanicals forum.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Interesting to see Clemens Helberg with the gang. Great stuff!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Jeebus. That's a lot of brands. Looks like way more people have realized that they need to go to where their watches are made, to ensure that the watches are made properly. Iirc the first time you, chip and Sujain went to this fair, there were a LOT less other microbrand people around.

Also very interesting to note some of the absentees... zelos, visitor-watch-co, armida, raven...


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Jeebus. That's a lot of brands. Looks like way more people have realized that they need to go to where their watches are made, to ensure that the watches are made properly. Iirc the first time you, chip and Sujain went to this fair, there were a LOT less other microbrand people around.
> 
> Also very interesting to note some of the absentees... zelos, visitor-watch-co, armida, raven...


.....Helson, Obris Morgan, MKII, Undone, Dan Henry, Makara, Borealis/Prometheus, Gavox.....


----------



## MichealChang (Mar 28, 2016)

Disneydave said:


> Sounds like Robin, from Atelier Wen, maybe? He has a thread in the Chinese Mechanicals forum.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


I remembered in his thread (which is amazingly interesting btw) he mentioned that Wilfried is attending HKTDC and meeting up with other microbrand owners.

So I think it's Wilfried.


----------



## MichealChang (Mar 28, 2016)

Sorry double posted.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Sounds like Robin, from Atelier Wen, maybe? He has a thread in the Chinese Mechanicals forum.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Yep, that's the guy. Chip remembered the brand, and now that you mention it, I recall that was his name.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Jeebus. That's a lot of brands. Looks like way more people have realized that they need to go to where their watches are made, to ensure that the watches are made properly. Iirc the first time you, chip and Sujain went to this fair, there were a LOT less other microbrand people around.
> 
> Also very interesting to note some of the absentees... zelos, visitor-watch-co, armida, raven...


Elshan from Zelos is here, but he keeps to himself mostly. We exchanged words for a minute as we passed each other going in opposite directions yesterday.

I think Armida is based here, but I don't know much more about the brand than that.

I spoke to Phil from Visitor about it, but he's in that "tweener" stage - too busy yet still too small for the trip to make sense, not yet felt enough pain that he feels he has to get here.

Raven is run by guys who know what they're doing, have been using the same vendors for years, and don't need to kill a week being here.

It's unlikely to get everyone sync'd up. Jason from Halios was just here for some number of days, but couldn't stay for the show. I seem to recall past years when someone would ask if I was going, and I wasn't.

I like to see the owners of younger brands making the investment in their businesses by getting here. I know the guys from Nodus were here before their brand launched, and get here frequently. Jon from Traska is American, but lives here in China, and unless I drank more than I think I did, I could swear he told me he's been sleeping at his factory while overseeing the final stages of production and QC.

All that said, it's one thing, an easier thing, to go to the show, walk into a booth, and sit down to look at samples. It's another thing to actually go into the mainland and tour a factory, like Chip, Suj and I did back in '14. It's another level when you go and do all that, when the show isn't going on, and spend half a day with each of the factory owners, playing stump the chump.

I'm not exactly bragging about how I did that earlier this year. I felt like it was necessary to plug a lot of holes in my own knowledge, in order to fix what was broken in our design-to-delivery process. I had to go through a lot of pain before I realized the true scale of my own problems. It's not something that will benefit a younger brand as much, if they haven't gone through a few cycles and mastered more fundamental aspects of running a business like this.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> .....Helson, Obris Morgan, MKII, Undone, Dan Henry, Makara, Borealis/Prometheus, Gavox.....


Helson and Obris Morgan are based here. That's all I know about them. When you're based here, you don't need to come to the show.

This week's meetups were largely organized by me and HK Ed via the Microbrand Watches group on Facebook, plus however many email addresses I had for other brand owners. It's not an all-inclusive list of who may or may not be here. It shouldn't be looked at as an indicator of who gives a crap about their business and who doesn't.

MKII - I've met Bill Yao. We're practically neighbors. He doesn't come to GTG's which take place in the town where his office is located, events I went out of my way to ask him to attend. He's not showing up to a meet-n-greet with a bunch of noob brand owners in HK. That guy keeps a lower profile than Bigfoot.

Undone - I think they're based here. I'm nearly certain.

Dan Henry - the guy may live somewhere else, but most of the operation is based here. Considering the volume they seem to be doing, he's probably here a lot. If I had his email, I'd have invited him. If he hung out on FB, in that group, he'd have heard of it.

Makara - Nadim doesn't answer customer support requests, if you believe those threads, and there was that one time he and I butted heads here on the forum. I doubt he'd come to a GTG I organized.

Borealis/Prometheus - I'm sure Carlos has been here before. He's been at this a while, knows what he's doing. I don't think he's here this year, but I'm certain I made him aware of it.

Gavox - Michael Happe must surely have been here. He's not here this year. He knew about the GTG.

Some of the above relates back to comments I've made in other threads about which brands are micro and which aren't. Bill Yao and Dan Henry - those guys are playing a different game (and winning).

Same with Helson, Armida, Obris Morgan and Undone. Not that they're all playing the same game, but they're not playing the one that most of the brands at last night's event are playing.

If Jason Lim or Steve Laughlin had organized a meetup of brand owners five years ago, and there was one seat open, I'd knock Chip and Sujain right the eff out to get that seat. For a lot of the startups last night, it was a rare opportunity to spend an evening not just with the original Hong Kong Wolfpack, they also had two major multi-brand retailers there, in Page & Cooper's Jonathan Bordell and Watch Wonderland's MX Yang.

Any small brand owner in pre-launch or still in startup, who knew about that event, and is here this week, but chose not to attend is a fool. You don't get many opportunities to play stump the chump with a more veteran competitor or successful retailer, when they're drinking, and letting their guard down.


----------



## Fandegrue (Jul 17, 2011)

Disneydave said:


> Sounds like Robin, from Atelier Wen, maybe? He has a thread in the Chinese Mechanicals forum.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Very close! I would have loved to attend, but unfortunately I'm in France these days... I'll be in Shenzhen from end of October onwards, though!



MichealChang said:


> I remembered in his thread (which is amazingly interesting btw) he mentioned that Wilfried is attending HKTDC and meeting up with other microbrand owners.
> 
> So I think it's Wilfried.


That's indeed Wilfried (and thanks for the kind words regarding our thread, Micheal)! He tried to hide out at the Sundick booth, but to no avail...









Best,

Robin.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Fandegrue said:


> Very close! I would have loved to attend, but unfortunately I'm in France these days... I'll be in Shenzhen from end of October onwards, though!
> 
> That's indeed Wilfried (and thanks for the kind words regarding our thread, Micheal)! He tried to hide out at the Sundick booth, but to no avail...
> 
> ...


Welp, looks I heard him wrong. Apologies to both Robin and Wilfried. In my defense, it was quite loud in that room, and Wil's English has a bit of an accent, and I met a lot of people. I'll correct my earlier post momentarily.


----------



## Fandegrue (Jul 17, 2011)

docvail said:


> Welp, looks I heard him wrong. Apologies to both Robin and Wilfried. In my defense, it was quite loud in that room, and Wil's English has a bit of an accent, and I met a lot of people. I'll correct my earlier post momentarily.


No worries. He'll be there tonight as well ;-)


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Fandegrue said:


> Very close! I would have loved to attend, but unfortunately I'm in France these days... I'll be in Shenzhen from end of October onwards, though!
> 
> That's indeed Wilfried (and thanks for the kind words regarding our thread, Micheal)! He tried to hide out at the Sundick booth, but to no avail...
> 
> ...


Oops, sorry about that!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Indian Elvis is in the house!!! Now it's a muthafarkkin party!!! I ain't never comin' home!!!










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Indian Elvis is actually Sri Lankan, it seems.

Rusty asked what he was wearing...









Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> It's interesting to see which "more established" brands the newer startups admire and are modeling themselves after. It's clear the guys from Nodus are attending Halios University. I think Jon from Traska is enrolling next semester. Justin from Blacklist and a bunch of other guys should be paying Sujain for his advice on building a brand beyond WIS.


How repeatable is Jason's formula? I've never owned a Seaforth, Delfin, or Tropik, so I can't say anything about the feel and look of them in the flesh. They seem nice enough, but not hugely different than what you or Chip are making. I guess I just don't quite understand the ravenous demand for them that leads to $1200+ asking prices when people try and flip them. My Huldra is much rarer than any Seaforth, and it's not like I could get $1,000 for mine.

I do like what Nodus has been up to lately though. The dish shaped bezel on the Retrospect is cool, and the fixed bezel Contrail is quite nice. I could definitely see myself wearing one of those on leather.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> How repeatable is Jason's formula? I've never owned a Seaforth, Delfin, or Tropik, so I can't say anything about the feel and look of them in the flesh. They seem nice enough, but not hugely different than what you or Chip are making. I guess I just don't quite understand the ravenous demand for them that leads to $1200+ asking prices when people try and flip them. My Huldra is much rarer than any Seaforth, and it's not like I could get $1,000 for mine.
> 
> I do like what Nodus has been up to lately though. The dish shaped bezel on the Retrospect is cool, and the fixed bezel Contrail is quite nice. I could definitely see myself wearing one of those on leather.


Bro. I said Indian Elvis. That's the end of the questions portion of our program. Y'all gonna have to figure this $hlt out without me. I'm off the clock.










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seriously, I'm drinking, right this instant. Time to rock out with muh c**k out, ride 'em hard and put 'em away wet. If you ain't drinking, I don't wanna know from ya right now. 

I'm out, people.

PEACE!


Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Back to reality for me.....working on decks for a project kickoff meeting. Ugh.

I have had my Barracuda on its bracelet since new, but since I have a Näcken Modern Black and it's such a perfect watch, the Barracuda wasn't getting much love.

Went through my straps last night and tried a few, stopped on this plain Stowa ditty that seems to suit it well. The dial is really nice and since I didn't pull the trigger on the Skipjack, I needed something to spruce up my NTH stable.

(Why no Skipjack? . . . . . I need the funds from the kitty for a new computer to replace the 12 yr old piece of crap that is my main photo editing computer and is blue-screening every few days. It's just worn out, having had the MB, memory, power supply, video card, and hard disks all replaced over it's lifetime. Time to put it out to pasture.)

[ Also amazing the quality of the photos out of an iPhone X. ]










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Bro. I said Indian Elvis. That's the end of the questions portion of our program. Y'all gonna have to figure this $hlt out without me. I'm off the clock.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Be sure to let Jonathan know my 809 is sat waiting for him on his return.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bradjhomes said:


> Be sure to let Jonathan know my 809 is sat waiting for him on his return.


Send me the SARB005, I'll be your message boy.

Until then, you're just a peanut that I used to know...

You're not even wearing trousers!!!


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

docvail said:


> Seriously, I'm drinking, right this instant. Time to rock out with muh c**k out, ride 'em hard and put 'em away wet. If you ain't drinking, I don't wanna know from ya right now.
> 
> Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


This is the strangest post I have ever seen.. I'm actually now worried about Doc.. I sure hope he survives this trip...

doesn't this sound like something river Phoenix might have posted before that fateful night?

please be safe... I love your watches


----------



## ucdan5 (Aug 11, 2011)

docvail said:


> Quazi said:
> 
> 
> > Doc,
> ...


So angry.... we would definitely be friends in real life!

Keep up the good work...


----------



## MichealChang (Mar 28, 2016)

Quazi said:


> This is the strangest post I have ever seen.. I'm actually now worried about Doc.. I sure hope he survives this trip...
> 
> doesn't this sound like something river Phoenix might have posted before that fateful night?
> 
> please be safe... I love your watches


Man, he sounds like he's having the time of his life over there. I bet someone needs to drag him onto his flight back home!


----------



## MichealChang (Mar 28, 2016)

Quazi said:


> This is the strangest post I have ever seen.. I'm actually now worried about Doc.. I sure hope he survives this trip...
> 
> doesn't this sound like something river Phoenix might have posted before that fateful night?
> 
> please be safe... I love your watches


Man, he sounds like he's having the time of his life over there. I bet someone needs to drag him onto his flight back home!


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Quazi said:


> This is the strangest post I have ever seen.. I'm actually now worried about Doc.. I sure hope he survives this trip...
> 
> doesn't this sound like something river Phoenix might have posted before that fateful night?
> 
> please be safe... I love your watches


No worries. This sounds exactly like most of my fellow military (or ex) partiers when they have reached peak fun.

Doc Savage


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Send me the SARB005, I'll be your message boy.
> 
> Until then, you're just a peanut that I used to know...
> 
> You're not even wearing trousers!!!


Heeeeeeyyy!

I know it's just the cider talking.


----------



## Quazi (Sep 19, 2015)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> No worries. This sounds exactly like most of my fellow military (or ex) partiers when they have reached peak fun.
> 
> Doc Savage


maybe I just live a sheltered life... never was in the military


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

This thread makes me want to fly to Hong Kong, drink beer, and start a microbrand so I can hang with the crew. So much epicness in the last couple of pages.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MichealChang said:


> Man, he sounds like he's having the time of his life over there. I bet someone needs to drag him onto his flight back home!


Which part of "I ain't never comin' home" seemed ambiguous to you?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bradjhomes said:


> Heeeeeeyyy!
> 
> I know it's just the cider talking.


Be fair.

I had some beer, too.

Seriously, Somersby cider is dangerous. It goes down like panties on prom night.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Doc has become his spirit animal! The honey badger. Honey badger doesn’t give a fukk!!

Sent by smoke signal from the top of a Smokey mountain.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh, so ready to be done.

At home, I can hardly sleep before 3am. Here, I can hardly sleep past 3am.

Scorpène Blue is still a panty-dropper.










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Curious what you think of Farer's new bi-compax auto chronos doc. They went with the 2894-2 module, so they're about 3mm slimmer than the typical 7750 chrono. Price is around $2K which is pretty reasonable I think for what's on offer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Curious what you think of Farer's new bi-compax auto chronos doc. They went with the 2894-2 module, so they're about 3mm slimmer than the typical 7750 chrono. Price is around $2K which is pretty reasonable I think for what's on offer.


I don't think anything about them.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Lol


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Curious what you think of Farer's new bi-compax auto chronos doc. They went with the 2894-2 module, so they're about 3mm slimmer than the typical 7750 chrono. Price is around $2K which is pretty reasonable I think for what's on offer.


Shame about these. They strike me more as fashion pieces than serious collector pieces. They'd have been better off going with a Meca-quartz and dropping the price to $300.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

SteamJ said:


> Shame about these. They strike me more as fashion pieces than serious collector pieces. They'd have been better off going with a Meca-quartz and dropping the price to $300.


Farer wants so, so badly to be Bremont.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Barracuuuuudaaaaaaaa!

Doin his thing this morning.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone who says they don't like snowflake hands should be made to narfle the garthok.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Snowflake hands?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

SteamJ said:


> Shame about these. They strike me more as fashion pieces than serious collector pieces. They'd have been better off going with a Meca-quartz and dropping the price to $300.


So basically make an Undone then. Meh. It's hardly as if there's a shortage of cheap Meca-quartz chronos with mineral crystals.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Curious what you think of Farer's new bi-compax auto chronos doc. They went with the 2894-2 module, so they're about 3mm slimmer than the typical 7750 chrono. Price is around $2K which is pretty reasonable I think for what's on offer.


I have a pretty long list of watches I'd have to choose between if I had $2k to spend. Farer is not on that list.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Anyone who says they don't like snowflake hands should be made to narfle the garthok.


Pass me that chuffin' garthok, I'm gonna narfle the [email protected]


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

MaxIcon said:


> I have a pretty long list of watches I'd have to choose between if I had $2k to spend. Farer is not on that list.


Fair enough. The B&M Capeland is still my favorite reasonably priced chrono, but that damn date window kills it dead. Farer at the very least nailed that part on theirs.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Scorpène Blue is still a panty-dropper.


My idea. Just sayin'.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I like the Farers well enough.

That B&M is a dumpster fire.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Meanwhile back in the NTH thread...:roll:


----------



## MstrDabbles (Mar 3, 2014)

JakeJD said:


> Meanwhile back in the NTH thread...:roll:


"what to wear with the Skipjack when it comes in???"









No one actually needs a watch.. I kid. I kid.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Nacken rocking the local HS football game tonight.









Doc Savage


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Any good ideas of natos for the Carolina


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Any good ideas of natos for the Carolina


This one maybe?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Cerberus Saturday:









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Been following this thread for quite awhile. 
Found I really enjoy the cut of Doc's jib and respect what he's doing with NTH.
However, my general dislike of sub style divers (and divers on a whole) has kept me from pulling the trigger on one of his pieces.

Lo and behold, put an offer on this Antilles on ebay and the seller accepted.
So now I can join the NTH club.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

The photo didn't turn out great but, long story short, my entire lunch today was chocolate.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



TheJohnP said:


> Been following this thread for quite awhile.
> Found I really enjoy the cut of Doc's jib and respect what he's doing with NTH.
> However, my general dislike of sub style divers (and divers on a whole) has kept me from pulling the trigger on one of his pieces.
> 
> ...


Nice! Those are fairly rare.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Good to be home.

Had the world's smallest/fastest watch-geek GTG at Chicago O'Hare during my layover. Long-time forum regular and Mad-Modder Jelliottz happened to be passing through on his way home from a biz trip to Detroit.

We connected via Facebook with just enough time for one round of beers. I showed him the watches I had in my travel roll, and finally got to see his vintage Titus Calypsomatic.

I even let him borrow my Renegade and Scorpène.










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

People who preordered the NTH Renegade are in for a treat. I find myself constantly wearing it. It's one of my go to watches lately.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Tanjecterly said:


> People who preordered the NTH Renegade are in for a treat. I find myself constantly wearing it. It's one of my go to watches lately.


That's great to hear. I pre-ordered one after lots of back and forth. The response seems to be overwhelming positive.
Unfortunately, I won't be able to wear it until May as it is going to be my wedding gift from my future wife . At least she had the sense to have me pick out my own watch and I will get to see it when it arrives!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Bluuu








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

docvail said:


> Seriously, I'm drinking, right this instant. Time to rock out with muh c**k out, ride 'em hard and put 'em away wet. If you ain't drinking, I don't wanna know from ya right now.
> 
> I'm out, people.
> 
> ...


I know this was from 4 days ago. This thread needs a bump and I'm away drankin' in O.C. NJ.

Doc's theme song from HK,


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

Renegade on a gray leather ColaReb band.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tim_herremans said:


> Renegade on a gray leather ColaReb band.
> 
> View attachment 13472031


Damn.

That may be the best pic of the dial I've seen yet.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yeah, that pic is excellent.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Just love it.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

I think I might just have realised a major change in my watch preferences. 

I used to think (for the <2years I've been into this) that I prefer no date watches. 
The problem is that before I was able to find a no date watch I liked, I got used to wearing watches with a date. I have enough OCD that it is impossible for me to not adjust day/date correctly if it's there, and now I've gotten used to having it available on my wrist. 

Several times a day, I look at my Näcken to check the date, but sadly to no avail. 

I think I might still prefer quartz watches to be no date (or atomic). I think a non-perpetual / non-atomic date on a quartz will ruin the grab and go nature of it.
Mechanicals on the other hand, requires so much user interaction anyway, that setting the correct date isn't really an issue. 

This is a strange realisation. No-date being an important attribute for so long, although usually not a deal breaker, it could probably alter how I rate watches currently on my lookout list.

Yea, I know this wasn't very interesting, but I'm updating my Retropie so I need to kill some time 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> I think I might just have realised a major change in my watch preferences.
> 
> I used to think (for the <2years I've been into this) that I prefer no date watches.
> The problem is that before I was able to find a no date watch I liked, I got used to wearing watches with a date. I have enough OCD that it is impossible for me to not adjust day/date correctly if it's there, and now I've gotten used to having it available on my wrist.
> ...


I have no idea what a retropie is, but I liked the fact that you admitted your post wasn't interesting, so I went ahead and gave it a like.

Keep up the good work. You'll rocket to the top of this organization.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> .


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


>


Yep.

Can't wait for that combo meal deal I have on order.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Making friends wherever I go...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I assume everyone here is signed up for our email newsletter, but if not, this just went out.

https://mailchi.mp/janistrading/chance-for-a-free_nth_sub


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Making friends wherever I go...
> 
> View attachment 13473947
> 
> View attachment 13473949


The problem is that you left out the feta cheese.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Cerberus Saturday:









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Cerberus Saturday:
> 
> View attachment 13479163
> 
> ...


I hear ya 








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

C 300 Sunday. Well, C 300 week.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

I think I'm slowly getting used to the color. It's been on my wrist for over a week now.









Sorry to add another behind the wheels pic, I hate them. The simple truth is that when I'm out and about using it the way it was intended, as a tool watch, I'm usually too preoccupied to realize I should take a picture of my watch. Much easier to remember when your out driving, the light hits your watch in a certain way and it's right in front of you.


----------



## sgtlmj (Jul 13, 2017)

docvail said:


> I don't like to think of any handset as being "_____ [brand] hands".
> 
> Omega didn't invent the arrow-head hand, as far as I know, and I definitely know we weren't trying to emulate Omega specifically when we chose that handset.
> 
> ...


Doc:

Are you going to update or do another blog post like "Is this an homage? If so, to or of what?"? That was a very informative post, and I still refer to it when I'm perusing older Subs that pop up for sale.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

aicolainen said:


> I think I'm slowly getting used to the color. It's been on my wrist for over a week now.
> 
> View attachment 13487571
> 
> ...


I love the steering-wheel shot! Something about the angle and the natural light in the car just seems ideal, more often than not.

Just make sure you don't try to take one while you're moving. Gotta get the camera ready as you're rolling up to stop, hit the stop, then snap away.

Do the cropping and image cleanup in the driveway when you get home.

Post while on the toilet.

That's my routine, anyway.











sgtlmj said:


> Doc:
> 
> Are you going to update or do another blog post like "Is this an homage? If so, to or of what?"? That was a very informative post, and I still refer to it when I'm perusing older Subs that pop up for sale.


No, never - I'll Give You a Knockoff... - Janis Trading Company


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I like that Nacken with the Militaire NATO strap. I've been thinking of ordering one of those straps specifically for my blue Nacken.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I like that Nacken with the Militaire NATO strap. I've been thinking of ordering one of those straps specifically for my blue Nacken.


I don't like those elastic straps. Just can't get used to the feel of them.

Instead, I bought a seatbelt NATO from Zach, but his version was BRIGHT green-n-yellow.

I put it on my vintage Nacken blue, and someone here on the forum asked me if I was color-blind.

I'm not, but the pain and humiliation of that crack led me to replacing the strap with a different one, and I've yet to find another watch I feel comfortable mounting on that strap.

Not all scars are physical, guys. Be nice to each other. We're not all equally good at straps.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Toonces said:


> I like that Nacken with the Militaire NATO strap. I've been thinking of ordering one of those straps specifically for my blue Nacken.


I highly recommend it. I too was a little sceptical with regards to it being elastic, but the comfort it provides is just beyond anything else I have tried. It is probably among the most secure straps you can get as well. The fact that it's a single pass with the ends sewn together keeps it low on the wrist (a perfect match with the slim subs), and it should be almost impossible to lose. The only drawback with this design is that you need to remove the spring bars to replace it. But why would you?
It remains to see how well it holds up, but if it lasts a year or more I think the value is there, and I will keep buying them.


----------



## kecsmade (Jun 3, 2015)

Hi Doc

I just realized, that there are new renders for the Nazario Sauro, which now show gild hour/minute hands and a blue second hand. This was used to be the other way around also the bezel changed...imho neither the hands nor the bezel to the better. How will the Nazario Sauro finally look like? Thanks!
Old:







New:








Erikas straps are really nice. I own two of them and they are really nice to wear...once you have them on the wrist, wich needs a bit of practice.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

kecsmade said:


> Erikas straps are really nice. I own two of them and they are really nice to wear...once you have them on the wrist, which needs a bit of practice.


First time was a real PITA, but after a few tries to figure out the right way, I can now do it blindfolded in a matter of seconds.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Is it like when people just give up on belts and wear pants with elastic all the time?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kecsmade said:


> Hi Doc
> 
> I just realized that *Rusty made a couple mistakes on one round of renders for the Nazario Sauro, which should have always shown gilt hour/minute hands and a blue second hand, and all the minute markers on the bezel. You must have missed it in your rush to get ready for pre-orders.
> CORRECT RENDER:*


Fixed that for you.

EDIT - Actually, that earlier one wasn't correct. Rusty got the colors of the handset frames reversed. I've got him locked to the 3D machine with a box of snackers, so here's the 2D.

THAT is correct.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Fixed that for you.


I really need to stop drinking and rendering...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> I really need to stop drinking and rendering...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The booze does tend to add the occasional plot-twist, but...yes, let's keep the bathtub hooch locked up until all the renders are done.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

Enjoying wearing this one today...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

French Sub Friday:









Weekend is a gnat's gnadger away, have a great one each.........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

While patiently awaiting my suspectly rendered Nazario Sauro (hell, I thought the dial was light gray), I'm slumming it with this guy today.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Unfortunately, I'm not waiting for a newSub.  I am nearing the end of my week with the Commander 300.


----------



## kecsmade (Jun 3, 2015)

docvail said:


> Fixed that for you.


Thanks for fixing and the clarification! I will have a beer now...🍺


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Slinging drinks with orthos ii mod today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kecsmade said:


> Thanks for fixing and the clarification! I will have a beer now...&#55356;&#57210;


Right, but...just to make sure, go back and look at the 2D I just swapped into that post.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

What are the odds this doesn't piss those guys off even more?










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> What are the odds this doesn't piss those guys off even more?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


#Inclusivity


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

I went from "I'm not sure I like subs at all" to "must have a Santa Cruz" in about 3 months and today my consumerist dream came true. Ever get a watch and feel like it should have been in your collection all along? Get yourself amped up for something and aren't let down? Kudos to Chris and team for making such a fine watch. The size is perfect and the color combo is exactly what I hoped for. I'm not a dive watch aficionado by any means, but this is the best bezel action on any diver I have.









A few questions though:
-Because I opted for one of the non-unisex version, should I get a 28mm blingy quartz fashion watch to offset the testosterone that is now seeping into my wrist due to wearing a man's watch?

-Since wearing the watch, I've noticed an increase in the number of people around me who can't keep their underwear on. Cooler temperatures will help keep my wrist covered and everyone's unmentionables in the proper place, but how do you deal with summer? Should I just stay indoors and reap the benefits of my newfound sexiness with my spouse?


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Sussa said:


> I went from "I'm not sure I like subs at all" to "must have a Santa Cruz" in about 3 months and today my consumerist dream came true. Ever get a watch and feel like it should have been in your collection all along? Get yourself amped up for something and aren't let down? Kudos to Chris and team for making such a fine watch. The size is perfect and the color combo is exactly what I hoped for. I'm not a dive watch aficionado by any means, but this is the best bezel action on any diver I have.
> 
> View attachment 13503257
> 
> ...


So much win in this post.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

Duuuuude. Santa Cruz on cork is awesome. I made a cork strap JUST FOR THAT WATCH (and then made some others because my massdrop cork fabric purchase included a whole yard of cork fabric). You have nailed it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> What are the odds this doesn't piss those guys off even more?


Only if it's mistaken for a Rolex ...


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> What are the odds this doesn't piss those guys off even more?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Legit..this made me, my wife, and my daughter laugh....


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> What are the odds this doesn't piss those guys off even more?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Legit....made me, my wife, and my daughter laugh....apparently twice....


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sussa said:


> I went from "I'm not sure I like subs at all" to "must have a Santa Cruz" in about 3 months and today my consumerist dream came true. Ever get a watch and feel like it should have been in your collection all along? Get yourself amped up for something and aren't let down? Kudos to Chris and team for making such a fine watch. The size is perfect and the color combo is exactly what I hoped for. I'm not a dive watch aficionado by any means, but this is the best bezel action on any diver I have.
> 
> A few questions though:
> -Because I opted for one of the non-unisex version, should I get a 28mm blingy quartz fashion watch to offset the testosterone that is now seeping into my wrist due to wearing a man's watch?
> ...


Give this woman one internet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You know what time it is?

If you guessed "time for Chris to shill for TempusFugit Blog again", you may be psychic.

Tempus Fugit: We Sail Tonight for Singapore - The Voyage Continues.

Some of James's posts can be a bit "inside baseball", especially when he's alluding to arguments he's made in the past. In this case, he alludes to the new "Swissness" standards, and some looming deadline at the end of this year.

I don't have the time to dig into it and figure it all out, but my bet is that he's referring to the new "percent of value" calculations, which I guess include some clause which says that all existing inventories which don't meet that standard must be re-labeled once this year ends, unless said inventories are already moved outside Switzerland, which would explain the big increase in exports as the clock winds down.

If that's correct, it explains his recent and intense focus on the spike in EXPORT numbers, his comments suggesting that they do not equate to actual sales, and his further comments which I think suggest a lot of that unsold inventory is bypassing the normal AD retail channels and going straight to the gray market, at a deep discount.

I'd be interested to have a discussion with James about the new percentage of value rules, because, as I read both the old and the new rules, it seems to me that any manufacturer could be compliant simply by manipulating the export value on their watches, in order for the math to work out.

Just as an example - if the old 50% rule led a watch with $50 in foreign-made parts and $50 in Swiss labor to be given an export value of $100, and the new rules require the Swiss component to be at least 60%, all they need to do to make the standing inventory still sitting in Switzerland compliant is to use $125 as an export value when they ship it next year.

A 25% increase in export value doesn't necessarily need to equate to a 25% increase in retail price, or even a 25% increase in wholesale cost, if the retailer and manufacturer can offset the higher export value with some back-door gimmick, like rebates or increased advertising supplement.

I really don't know what to make of his comments about the astounding (and, if I read his comments correctly, dubious) 25% growth rate in exports to Singapore.

I'm not an expert on what's going on there, but my seat-of-the-pants impression is that the place is drowning in money, and they're all bananas for watches, so...I dunno, maybe there's some truth to it.

Also, if a number starts off small, it's easier to get a big growth spike, and Singapore is a small place, so, again, I dunno, but maybe there's some new player in Singapore spiking the punch, or some existing player loading up on dirt-cheap Swiss exports, taking advantage of this once-a-generation opportunity.

At any rate - read TempusFugit.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double posts are the devil.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaannnddddd...speaking of the Devil...

That's cute, Bulova...


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

So Doc... Any plans for a non-diver?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cosmodromedary said:


> So Doc... Any plans for a non-diver?


Maybe.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone here into motorcycles?

Check out my blog post from yesterday. 


Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Saw that post from the email newsletter. My takeaway: electric bikes are the bees knees, so electric watches will be the future too.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Saw that post from the email newsletter. My takeaway: electric bikes are the bees knees, so electric watches will be the future too.


That new electric Harley is sick. Bad case of the wants.


----------



## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

JakeJD said:


> That new electric Harley is sick. Bad case of the wants.


But, is it a panty dropper?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

caktaylor said:


> JakeJD said:
> 
> 
> > That new electric Harley is sick. Bad case of the wants.
> ...


Please use the less offensive terminology..... Non-gender-specific underwear removers, or something along those lines...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

caktaylor said:


> But, is it a panty dropper?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It will definitely drop the panties of all hairy bikers within line of sight. Fellas will be left wearing nought but bumless chaps, that's all you will ever see when riding an electric Harley.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Electric Hog?? Shocking........


I'll get my coat........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

Hey Doc, any plans for new variants of the tropics? There seem to be new subs every 6 months or so but the tropics have only had 1 run, if I'm not mistaken.

Anyway, I found the Santa Fe too sporty for everyday use so ended up trading it for the Azores.

(Yes, the crowns are screwed down. Yes, they look like they're not, but they are)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

househalfman said:


> Hey Doc, any plans for new variants of the tropics? There seem to be new subs every 6 months or so but the tropics have only had 1 run, if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> Anyway, I found the Santa Fe too sporty for everyday use so ended up trading it for the Azores.
> 
> (Yes, the crowns are screwed down. Yes, they look like they're not, but they are)


I could be hit by a bus tomorrow.

I don't make too many plans too far in advance.

I'm not thinking about anything beyond the current batch of NTH Subs.

Sign up for the newsletter. When we have news to share, that's where we'll share it.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 13514669


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Speaking of the new batch of Subs to be shipped late October, is there any news on it regarding the timeframe? Eagerly awaiting my Näcken Modern Blue no date (actually, I never waited so long for a watch (4 months), so anticipation is skyrocketing here )


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

The amount of quality humor in this thread is truly impressive. I love this place.

Here's a watch pic.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

karmadrome said:


> Speaking of the new batch of Subs to be shipped late October, is there any news on it regarding the timeframe? Eagerly awaiting my Näcken Modern Blue no date (actually, I never waited so long for a watch (4 months),skyrocketing here )


I'd say the timeframe is late october.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

karmadrome said:


> Speaking of the new batch of Subs to be shipped late October, is there any news on it regarding the timeframe? Eagerly awaiting my Näcken Modern Blue no date (actually, I never waited so long for a watch (4 months), so anticipation is skyrocketing here )


Ll..


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

A sunny day and the Renegade pair well.


----------



## dodubb (May 22, 2017)

long time lurker here, these thinner divers are so tempting!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Portrait of the brand owner as a doofus...

http://www.thetimebum.com/2018/09/interview-chris-vail-of-janis-trading-co.html?m=1

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

karmadrome said:


> Speaking of the new batch of Subs to be shipped late October, is there any news on it regarding the timeframe? Eagerly awaiting my Näcken Modern Blue no date (actually, I never waited so long for a watch (4 months), so anticipation is skyrocketing here )





GlenRoiland said:


> I'd say the timeframe is late october.


^this.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Elbakalao said:


> The amount of quality humor in this thread is truly impressive. I love this place.
> 
> Here's a watch pic.
> 
> ...


Stolen for my IG feed...

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Well, I managed to fight the gravitational pull of my non gender specific lower garment extraction device long enough to take my kids to the library today. 










However when I got home all bets where off.


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> Fixed that for you.
> 
> EDIT - Actually, that earlier one wasn't correct. Rusty got the colors of the handset frames reversed. I've got him locked to the 3D machine with a box of snackers, so here's the 2D.
> 
> THAT is correct.


Wait... so now I'm confused... 
Are the hands blue or gilt?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

gelocks said:


> Wait... so now I'm confused...
> Are the hands blue or gilt?


Heat-blued gold. (Rose gold, i.e. gold infused with rose petal essence during smelting).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gelocks said:


> Wait... so now I'm confused...
> Are the hands blue or gilt?


See pic in this post. That's what they are.









Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Portrait of the brand owner as a doofus...
> 
> http://www.thetimebum.com/2018/09/interview-chris-vail-of-janis-trading-co.html?m=1
> 
> Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


Enjoyed the article, and as usual humourous and open.

Ric


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Special edition DevilRay?

Yes.

Deep Six, it's called.

Now live on the website.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That's a very sharp looking watch.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

That new devilray looks great


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> That new devilray looks great


Wait 'til you start seeing more pics.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Just made a thread with some pics ..at work...more later









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Bam















Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Holy crap! Can't find it on the website, are these already sold out?


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

> This Item Or Option Is Currently Unavailable Or Sold Out


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Holy crap! Can't find it on the website, are these already sold out?





Coriolanus said:


> View attachment 13526857


Page & Cooper took the last of them.

There aren't many pieces left.

Email them (now) to ask them if you can buy one.

[email protected]

...

All you guys who got the Deep Six - UVAlaw just sold his for MORE than full retail. I'm happy to see the Subs are finally starting to fetch higher prices on the used markets. If that's all you guys paying attention to what I said about the demand for sold-out models - good, someone ought to be paying attention. My sons don't seem to be.

You're going to see more of this - NTH models selling out quickly, strong resell values, etc.

Don't unsubscribe from the newsletter. Don't stop paying attention. Don't tune out. Don't come crying to me if you do, and you miss something. Don't be the guy who emails me, trying to crawl up my a$$ looking for the hidden inventory months later. I don't keep any there. Trust me.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Don't unsubscribe from the newsletter. Don't stop paying attention. Don't tune out. Don't come crying to me if you do, and you miss something. Don't be the guy who emails me, trying to crawl up my a$$ looking for the hidden inventory months later. I don't keep any there. Trust me.


I wouldn't want them if you did. Just saying lol


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

A big bowl of ambition in the morning









Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orthos ii today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaaannnnndddd...we're down to four no-date turquoise DevilRays available from our website. 

Our retailers still have the with-dates, and some of the other colorways, but not many.

Get 'em before they're gone, people.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This just happened...

https://nthwatches.com/


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

New site looks great


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

^ Nice...but can I preorder Rusty’s unicorn mug?


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Outstanding! Love the new site, Doc!

That turquoise Devil Ray is the one I ordered. That's a seriously killer watch.

I dunno, between the turquoise, Devil Fox and Deep Six, it's a toss up as to which is my favorite. I think maybe I'm leaning towards the Deep Six.

I was surprised to see you took the depth meter thing on the chapter ring (?) off, though. It looks really good without it, perhaps cleaner, but still.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Outstanding! Love the new site, Doc!
> 
> That turquoise Devil Ray is the one I ordered. That's a seriously killer watch.
> 
> ...


Taking it off wasn't my idea, but I think it was a good call.

The original colorways were black, white, orange and turquoise, where the black and white are neutral colors, and the orange and turquoise are the same Pantones used on the depth gauge.

The orange minute track on the Watch Gauge LE was also an exact match. The DevilFox LE had a neutral gray dial and black minute track.

I think the depth gauge would clash with that color-fade blue dial too much, so we just made it a dark blue minute/seconds track.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

A new web-site commensurate with NTH World - terrific!! Ramps up the message and is a deffo visual pull-in; obvs to see a great deal of work and perspiration have been sacrificed to achieve this - Team NTH is winning..... This is the platform for the next leap forward, gotta be good....

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

docvail said:


> All you guys who got the Deep Six - UVAlaw just sold his for MORE than full retail.


That was me, was willing to pay more to get one of the few no-dates. I cancelled my pre-order for 2 DevilRays earlier this year because I thought I was moving to Dallas. That never happened but by the time that was settled I'd decided to take a break for a while. Been back at it picking up some cool pieces the last couple weeks. I bought a GS on Sunday because I wanted a Spring Drive before taking another break. That break only lasted about 7 hours until I saw pics posted of the Deep Six...had to have it. Both arrived today and I'm pretty damn happy. Don't think it'll be my last NTH. Like the new site.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I just traded my Mint Azores for a Santa Fe. Oddly, he had just traded his mint Azores for that same Santa Fe, but had regrets as soon as he received it. I think I can live with it, but if anyone has a Nazario who wants to trade, PM me. Or not.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanker G1 said:


> That was me, was willing to pay more to get one of the few no-dates. I cancelled my pre-order for 2 DevilRays earlier this year because I thought I was moving to Dallas. That never happened but by the time that was settled I'd decided to take a break for a while. Been back at it picking up some cool pieces the last couple weeks. I bought a GS on Sunday because I wanted a Spring Drive before taking another break. That break only lasted about 7 hours until I saw pics posted of the Deep Six...had to have it. Both arrived today and I'm pretty damn happy. Don't think it'll be my last NTH. Like the new site.
> 
> View attachment 13529865


Thanks and welcome back. Nice GS. Wouldn't mind seeing some good pics of dial and case.

I was just saying to some guys that when the topic of "grails" comes up, GS doesn't seem to get mentioned nearly as often as the usual suspects from Rolex and Omega, and I wasn't sure why.

I've long wanted an MM300, but $3k is a bit much when my most common watch-related activity is banging my watch into door jambs as I lumber past them.

I'm not even kidding. I was *this* close to banging my Scorpène into a steel railing yesterday. When I realized the danger, I started rubbing it with my other hand. I'm not sure if I was comforting it or myself.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

MikeyT said:


> I just traded my Mint Azores for a Santa Fe. Oddly, he had just traded his mint Azores for that same Santa Fe, but had regrets as soon as he received it. I think I can live with it, but if anyone has a Nazario who wants to trade, PM me. Or not.


I traded my Santa Fe for his azores lol...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

househalfman said:


> I traded my Santa Fe for his azores lol...


I knew that, but I wasn't going to name names.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nice video break-down on the DevilRay by Jonathan of Page & Cooper -


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> This just happened...
> 
> https://nthwatches.com/


Stylistically, I dig the vibe given off by the new NTH website, Doc.

Cool (even somewhat surprising) design (pictures, fonts, team photo stylizations, etc.) and attitude (certain picture choices, team member descriptions, etc.), which may help to further "color" the brand beyond you, the watches, and this thread.

Functionally, I also find it much easier to navigate than the Janis Trading Co. website (the high quality blog posts are finally easily located, Instagram integration, etc.).

Good stuff.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Congrats for the new website, great improvement! Building the brand and giving it a strong base. 

A little frustrating though when every watch listed is sold out 🤣 - but I guess it’s for reference and it’s good for you. 

I like where this is going!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Stylistically, I dig the vibe given off by the new NTH website, Doc.
> 
> Cool (even somewhat surprising) design (pictures, fonts, team photo stylizations, etc.) and attitude (certain picture choices, team member descriptions, etc.), which may help to further "color" the brand beyond you, the watches, and this thread.
> 
> ...


Cheers, mate.

And since you brought it up...

The new site is on an ecommerce platform different than the one the old site still sits on. The primary reason we switched platforms was the UX (user experience), which is SOOOOOO much more modern and flexible on the new site.

It's a shame, because behind the scenes, the old site's platform is MUCH easier to use, and no doubt made the business easier for me to manage.

My plan was to launch the new site, but keep the old site live and visible as an archive of L&H product info, and so that customers could go back and review warranty and other policies if need be. Plus, I figure I'll need access to the historical data for at least a few months, if not the next two years, while the warranties wind down on orders placed through the old site.

I'm now in a possibly-about-to-be-heated email exchange with a VP from the old site's platform. I didn't realize it, but their pricing is partly based on online sales for the trailing 12 months, not just the function-set a merchant like me needs and wants to choose. They don't just let you downgrade when you need fewer functions.

The fact that I don't need the old site to actually "do" anything apparently doesn't matter. They want to keep charging me $250/month until my trailing 12-month sales falls under the threshold for that pricing, then $80/month until the numbers fall below that threshold, at which point, I'll pay $30/month.

I'm not "upset" yet. Maybe because so much work was put into the new site, I'm exhausted, and just happy to have it launched finally (even though there's a lot of cleaning up still to do). But, as a former software salesman, it might start to piss me off.

These guys have a habit of rolling out frequent system changes, and I *ALWAYS* find bugs after each rollout. Usually they're minor, but still, they need to be fixed, and from what their support team tells me, I'm usually the first, sometimes the only guy identifying them. I have to be the only guy providing them with detailed messages describing the bugs, with screen-shots included, and providing proposed solutions. I'm certain I'm the only guy arguing with the head of their code development team ("If I say you have a bug, goddamit, you have a bug, and all you need to do is go find it, exactly where I'm telling you to look for it!")

They had a bug in the code for their new, native PayPal plug-in, which cost me a month's worth of online sales from people outside the USA. I identified it, and it took them three months to fix. They had a bug in the code for their email newsletter subscription plug-in, which I identified, and it took them months to fix. They still have problems related to inventory changes following refunds, and I'm pretty sure I was the first to spot it.

I can't even count the hours I've spent dealing with their bugs, not just reporting them, but helping with the fixes. My email to the VP included 10 bullets on how their system compares to our new site's system, and these are the two biggest ecommerce platforms, so they're heated rivals. I doubt people who leave their system bother to provide that sort of constructive feedback.

I tried to put a human spin on the issue for the VP. I suggested he think about a business that is going out of business, or just in decline. Do they really want that business owner going online to complain about them continuing to bill him based on his sales in better times? "Sorry to see your sales fell off a cliff. You'll be able to lower your monthly fee in six months, assuming you don't do any business at all between now and then." What kind of horse$hlt is that?

I feel like I deserve to be given an exception to their stupid pricing rules. If I don't get it, well...I'm in a few Facebook groups with some other ecommerce business owners. I'll have to let them all know about the shafting I'll be taking.

I'm really not the guy you want going online to make a stink.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Congrats for the new website, great improvement! Building the brand and giving it a strong base.
> 
> A little frustrating though when every watch listed is sold out &#55358;&#56611; - but I guess it's for reference and it's good for you.
> 
> I like where this is going!


As of yesterday, nine watches were listed as in stock. I counted. Just sayin'


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Well, here are more photos of the Deep Six I guess...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Congrats for the new website, great improvement! Building the brand and giving it a strong base.
> 
> A little frustrating though when every watch listed is sold out  - but I guess it's for reference and it's good for you.
> 
> I like where this is going!





CMFord said:


> As of yesterday, nine watches were listed as in stock. I counted. Just sayin'


Right?

I mean...does no one see the pre-orders we have on the site?

When we had stock on two year old models, guys said we were failing. Now we're about sold out on almost everything, and guys are acting like we're doing something wrong.

There's still inventory available from our retail partners. We still have some stuff in stock. We have stuff available for pre-order.

Can you buy a watch off Rolex's website? Nope. Is that frustrating?

Every new release, I say, get your money ready. When we open the sales up, I say, get them now if you want one. When we get low on stock, I say, we're running low, don't wait, don't be the guy asking me about them when (not if) we sell out.

I'm not Seiko. Everything we make is produced in finite numbers.

Something will always be sold out. Every thing else is on its way to being sold out. If it's frustrating that we're sold out, maybe next time buy one before we're sold out.

I want a 1963 Corvette Stingray Split-window for $3k. Unfortunately, they sold out in 1963.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Somebody is gunning hard for that free sub! That picture of the Deep 6 with the moon in the background, and the hand-in-the-pocket shot are pure watch pr0n.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

Chris, the new website is awesome!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Oh jeez we need to get to a new page for this thread, CMFord's hundred photo bonanza takes ages to load and makes the page jump all the time while loading...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

On old Deaumar rubber strap









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

Mil6161 said:


> On old Deaumar rubber strap











Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## Rotosphere (Jan 13, 2017)

Mulling over the Dolphin Ice. Mighty nice, that Ice...


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

MAHNN!!! 


That Deep six. 

How do I look at my Bluquise the same way.

If only!! 

I Blame Da Doc and his stealthy ways. Fine sexah arse piece!!! 

The new subs aren't bad either.

Great looking site btw.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Oh jeez we need to get to a new page for this thread, CMFord's hundred photo bonanza takes ages to load and makes the page jump all the time while loading...


Sorry. It will go on to the next page soon.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Cheers, mate.
> 
> And since you brought it up...
> 
> ...


Seems like either my well-reasoned logic or my implied threat of making a stink had the desired effect. They agreed they could lower my monthly service to the basic plan, if all I want to do is use the site as a static archive of old product info and transactional data.

Now we just need to import all the loyalty rewards info, migrate all the unused coupon codes, re-create all the multi-use coupon codes, re-size all the images, update all the specs on all the product pages, rebalance all the inventory levels, install a few apps to get the full functionality we want, and Robert is your father's brother.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

docvail said:


> Seems like either my well-reasoned logic or my implied threat of making a stink had the desired effect. They agreed they could lower my monthly service to the basic plan, if all I want to do is use the site as a static archive of old product info and transactional data.
> 
> Now we just need to import all the loyalty rewards info, migrate all the unused coupon codes, re-create all the multi-use coupon codes, re-size all the images, update all the specs on all the product pages, rebalance all the inventory levels, install a few apps to get the full functionality we want, and Robert is your father's brother.


To save time and just make things easier on you - put all the reward points and unused coupon codes into my account.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

We don’t need all the details Doc, just tighten up and get it done!


----------



## volgofmr (Feb 3, 2014)

ck2k01 said:


> While patiently awaiting my suspectly rendered Nazario Sauro (hell, I thought the dial was light gray), I'm slumming it with this guy today.
> 
> View attachment 13495065


I so love that.
Great !


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Taking pictures on this beautifully-lit Saturday, so here's my contribution to that right here thread.

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

One more day









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just got this one out of the mailbox.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^^^Bill Jones School of Photography for the win!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Dub post


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> ^^^Bill Jones School of Photography for the win!


It's the New wave of Wristporn expression .............









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

^^ Touche.....^^

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Ragl said:


> ^^ Touche.....^^
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


Sorry, wasn't trying to harsh your smooth.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


>


Well plaid.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I can already hear my Dad, "great job, Kid! Don't get cocky..."










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Smoking Plum Pudding from Seattle Pipe Club with ice cold seltzer, watching the sun go down. Vintage blue Nacken on the wrist.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep Six tonight









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Happened to stop into my local watchmaker's shop yesterday. If you're ever in the western Philly suburbs, specifically Wayne, on a Tuesday, Thursday or Saturday, you should check out Whittle's Watch Works, owned by Swiss-WOSTEP trained Peter Whittle. He always has something cool on display in his counter/case.

Yesterday it took me all of a nanosecond to zoom in on two vintage Hamilton chronos, apparently part of his personal collection, which he dubbed, "the Hamilton Brothers".

I was most smitten with the reverse-panda/tropical dial piece with the bezel, because it seemed Heuer Autavia-esque, but he went out of his way to point out how unique the other, white-black panda-dial piece is.

He said it's got the same movement used in the original Heuer Monaco, noting the unusual location of the crown, opposite from the pushers.

Whereas the one with the bezel was hand-wind only, he said the panda was an automatic. And yet, when he opened the case to show me the movement - no rotor.

He just stood there a moment while I struggled to know what to say.

"Is it a micro-rotor?" was all I could think of, but even if it was, I couldn't see any rotor at all. I thought maybe my eyes were getting worse, and I was just overlooking it.

"Yeah, it is. If you tilt the case up a bit and peer between the pushers, you might catch a glimpse of it, between the plates."

"Wait...what? A micro-rotor BETWEEN the plates??? I've never even heard of that!"

He said he's got no interest in selling either.

Bastard.










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm, micro-rotor between the plates...

Was it a modular movement, with one of the three things (rotor, time-keeping, chronograph) being an add-on to an otherwise selfcontained "base"?


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm, micro-rotor between the plates...
> 
> Was it a modular movement, with one of the three things (rotor, time-keeping, chronograph) being an add-on to an otherwise selfcontained "base"?


The cal 11 was the auto-chrono that Hamilton, Buren, Heuer, Breitling, and Dubois-Depraz jointly developed in the 60s. It is a "modular" design in that the sense that it started from a Buren micro-rotor base plate and they built the chronograph "module" on top, but IIRC it was not a pre-existing Buren base plate, but custom-designed to take the chronograph module DD developed (so it's not exactly "modular" like we sometimes see today, with a DD chrono module attached to a 2824 or 2892).

Edit: I nearly bought one of these a couple of years ago but then I researched the Cal 11 and learned it was rather dreadful for reliability -- they revised the design within just 2 years, then dumped it entirely 2 or 3 years later for the Caliber 12.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

New to me Blue 'Cuda today. This watch should have been called the Chameleon. It looks different in every light source.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

JakeJD said:


> New to me Blue 'Cuda today. This watch should have been called the Chameleon. It looks different in every light source.
> 
> View attachment 13547839


Very well caught Sir..........

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> New to me Blue 'Cuda today. This watch should have been called the Chameleon. *It looks different in every light source.*


Indeed it does. Your pic makes the dial and bezel look like a perfect match. I've seen some which make the dial look purple and the bezel look teal.

Can't be helped. Different materials - pad-printed brass-plate dial versus PVD-coated stainless steel bezel insert. I think the Pantone color we specified for the dial is damned close, if not an exact match for the PVD used on the bezel insert, but the lighting conditions will change how both/either look.

Proof - same watch, same camera, same lighting, just rotated:


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Indeed it does. Your pic makes the dial and bezel look like a perfect match. I've seen some which make the dial look purple and the bezel look teal.
> 
> Can't be helped. Different materials - pad-printed brass-plate dial versus PVD-coated stainless steel bezel insert. I think the Pantone color we specified for the dial is damned close, if not an exact match for the PVD used on the bezel insert, but the lighting conditions will change how both/either look.
> 
> ...


At work, under bright overhead fluorescent lights, the bezel looks exactly the same shade as the lighter areas of the dial (due to the sunburst effect), maybe just a _touch_ greener. At home under indirect incandescent, the dial is very dark and the bezel looks teal. Under bright sun, the bezel looks just a shade lighter than the dial, almost a baby blue. Under overcast skies, they look like exact matches.

I think it's cool  Light play is half the joy of looking at a watch, IMHO.


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

docvail said:


> I can already hear my Dad, "great job, Kid! Don't get cocky..."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One of those is mine!


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 13550613
> 
> 
> View attachment 13550615


Baccaruda


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

...Since it's been a minute. Happy Saturday!


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Here is a pic of a watch. Enjoying a watch, enjoying a beautiful sunset.









Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hey guys - since I'm not a sponsor, I'm not allowed to promote my business by posting the website URL, nor mention the website.

The rules regarding what I'm not allowed to do could be interpreted to include a wide range of things I've done routinely, not because I was deliberately breaking the rules, but because sometimes I forget to be mindful of them, which is totally on me when I slip up.

I would sincerely appreciate it if you all could help me stay on the right side of things, by reminding me if you see me doing something that might be a rule violation.

This the specific rule I'm referring to -

_*13. WatchUSeek's policy regarding links, URLs, or site/entity naming inside posts, signatures, profiles, homepage hyperlinks, usernames, and avatars:

b. links to or naming of commercial ventures/websites/pages/content are prohibited unless you are a Sponsor*_

Obviously, this thread is about the watches I make and sell, but I need to walk a fine line between talking about the watches we make (which is allowed) and mentioning where and when they're for sale (which isn't).

If I forget, I think it would be better if I edited the posts before a moderator has to.

Forum sponsorship isn't in the budget for us right now, but sponsorship pays for the servers and whatnot, so it's fair for the forum owners to limit what business owners can do when they're not kicking into the kitty.

I trust you'll all understand if I have to remain silent at times, but I hope you'll all continue the discussion as you have, and not think me rude when I can't respond.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

ETA: Disregard. Apparently I neglected to read all of Doc's post and asked a question that was already answered.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Coriolanus said:


> Chris,
> 
> I might get pounced on for saying what I'm about to if it's misinterpreted, but please read all that follows as a sincere question and discussion, and not judgment or armchair quarterbacking.
> 
> ...


Not to flame, but he did mention this:

"Forum sponsorship isn't in the budget for us right now..."


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

TheJohnP said:


> Not to flame, but he did mention this:
> 
> "Forum sponsorship isn't in the budget for us right now..."


Yeah, by the time you'd posted this I'd already caught my mistake and edited. Thought I'd read to the bottom, but I apparently had more scrolling to do. My bad.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

No flames needed.

I used to be a sponsor.

Under the forum's previous ownership, there was a lower-cost sponsorship option which suited my purposes, meaning it allowed me to do what I wanted to do, and I felt it had a positive ROI. But since the forum's sale to new owners, that option is no longer available.

I stepped up to a higher-cost option for a while, but I have to assess the relative value of every expense against other alternatives, and when I looked at the sources of traffic to my site, there wasn't any coming from the ads we had here.

I can post and comment in the forum, even though I'm not a sponsor. I'm just not allowed to promote my business by posting links to my website or mentioning it, which, as I said, is fair, and I have no objection to the rule.

If my being here and posting gets more people interested in what we're doing, it's all good, I think, so long as I'm not breaking any rules by linking back to my business, or mentioning the website. Everyone else is of course free to post their watches in the WRUW threads, talk about what we're doing, post links to the site, etc.

Whether I'm here or not, and regardless of what I post, I don't see why that should or would change.

If my business grows to the point that I can justify the cost, and if I see the ROI, I'll become a sponsor again. But until that time, it's just not in the budget, and I'll have to be more mindful about what I say in my posts.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Heh. Looks like that mystery-brand-inhouse-movement-problems story doc hinted at has broached off of forums and onto youtube now. 




Interesting takeaway, tbh. "Don't buy the *first version watches* of an inhouse movement".


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

docvail said:


> I would sincerely appreciate it if you all could help me stay on the right side of things, by reminding me if you see me doing something that might be a rule violation.
> 
> This the specific rule I'm referring to -
> 
> ...


Does this include naming your partnerships (e.g. Page & Cooper) like you have in the past? Honest question, I'm not scolding you. Just trying to understand the rules. I, for one, like to hear about these things, but if it's against the rules, so be it I guess.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

For the sake of (A) keeping this thread fun, interesting, and on-topic, and (B) keeping away from "commenting on moderation decisions," may I suggest we all just like DocVail's comment and leave it at that, rather than quizzing him on any number of scenarios under which we should all feel moved to blast him for breaking the rules?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Heh. Looks like that mystery-brand-inhouse-movement-problems story doc hinted at has broached off of forums and onto youtube now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That wasn't the one I was speaking about, but it is interesting.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> For the sake of (A) keeping this thread fun, interesting, and on-topic, and (B) keeping away from "commenting on moderation decisions," may I suggest we all just like DocVail's comment and leave it at that, rather than quizzing him on any number of scenarios under which we should all feel moved to blast him for breaking the rules?


^This.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmmm...

So there are mutterings of at least TWO brands with in-house movement lemons? Cuuuurious.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> So there are mutterings of at least TWO brands with in-house movement lemons? Cuuuurious.


I may have been muttering, but the source I have was downright ranting about a 100% defective rate in watches from one company.

I personally find the state of things in this industry interesting, not just because I own a watch brand, but also because of how much of it seems to defy conventional wisdom.

Case in point...

I've been thinking, and saying for some time, that the industry has been approaching a turning point, or if you prefer, a breaking point, when companies which have lost money for years simply cease to exist, because that's what happens in every other industry when companies lose money.

But a recent conversation with an industry-semi-insider put a different light on it.

He suggested that there's a pattern of extremely wealthy individuals who want to own a luxury marque buying these struggling businesses, owning them for some period of time, subsidizing their money-losing operations with additional out-of-pocket investments, then eventually tiring of it all, and selling the business to the next uber-wealthy guy in line. Wash, rinse, repeat.

What does owning a heritage luxury brand entail, as far as benefits go, if not profits? Red carpet parties with comely young ladies, backstage passes, front row seats, celebrity photo-ops, etc, would all seem to be part of the package.

Oil sheiks, Russian oligarchs, internet billionaires, dark web hackers, Chinese businessmen - I suppose there's always a dozen or so guys with enough money and enough interest in the glitz and glamour to buy their way into that world, and pay the carrying costs for five or ten years of good times.

In that light, some of what I see makes more sense, and explains why maybe it is all more sustainable than I and most others would think.

So your brand put out a lemon of a movement? So what? So you need to bin a bunch of inventory? So what? If you're not in it to make money, so long as they still invite you to the parties, who cares?

Only the businesses like mine, those run by the owners without prior wealth actually have to make money. The others seem to be part of a larger, self-regenerative eco-system of loose money and dubious value.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

^^ Looking forward to the day when Mr. Ollie Gark snaps up..........Rolex.......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Given Rolex' ownership structure, I find that a bit unlikely, but....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All that said, I still think there will be some sort of "reckoning" in the near future, for several reasons.

At the lower end of the price range, there's Swatch Group's claim they plan to stop selling ETA movements to third parties in 2020. 

Just about everyone I speak to in the industry doesn't think it's really going to happen. The consensus seems to be that Swatch will sell movements to whoever wants them, and their declaration they plan to stop is just smoke and mirrors.

When I try to understand why they think that, no one has provided a very logical explanation. It's certainly possible there is one we're just not seeing, and it's possible that it's both true and completely without a logical explanation.

But...I can think of some good reasons why ETA would want to stop, and why the explanation they gave, the "wanting to help strengthen the industry" is baloney, just a cover-story for what they really want to do - cut off supply of movements in order to pull the legs out from under several competitors.

That would leave several mid-range brands having to come up with an in-house movement of their own, or source one from another company, most of whom don't have anywhere near ETA's capacity, or range, or stability, or low defect rate. 

At the upper end of the range, I'm not sure it matters as much, because of the pattern laid out above, but also because the upper-end brands are more likely to either have their own in-house movements already, or the resources to buy or build one. If the uber-wealthy want to prop-up Richard Mille, as an example, that doesn't really change the landscape for most enthusiasts. 

Rolex, Omega and Tag are all self-sufficient and vertically-oriented companies, so they'll be fine. But from what I'm hearing, there are several well-known mid-range European brands which are really struggling to maintain stability and solvency.

It's not all rosy pictures for brands like mine. If ETA does cut off supply, that's going to change things dramatically, even for companies that never used ETA movements, because of basic supply and demand. There will suddenly be a shortage of good, affordable mechanical movements. 

We're already seeing production costs and lead times going up. I think it's going to be hard for start-ups to maintain margins and operational stability if the trend continues. To me it feels like a race to scale, before the party ends, and the music stops.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmmmm. This sounds a bit as if the eta-sales-shutdown will have a knock on effect of drastically reducing and eliminating a lot of the upstart kickstarter/microbrands.

Which, y'know, considering the increasing coverage across watch media and social channels, might not be far off from one of Swatch group's goals. Micros are, after all, stealing a lot of the "cool" factor away from swatch.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Although, as for why brands are in denial about eta's likelihood of pulling out... it might be an oldfashioned sticking to "but we're long-time business partners, you just don't do things like that! " principles.

You could see a heavy dose of that language recently from a German AD, Wempe, when they got upset about Nomos controlling their gray-market sales: Business News: Wempe Stops Selling Nomos After 20 Years | SJX Watches



> An announcement signed by the retailer's chief executive Kim-Eva Wempe, as well as her father, Hellmut, stated, "We were completely surprised by this decision, because this procedure was not discussed in any way in advance with us. As a traditional family business, we have a different understanding of partnership&#8230; As a Hanseatic company, it is not our style and philosophy to publicly debate differences with partners. After the actions of Nomos, we are now forced to take a stand, or clarify some facts."


I'd guess that a lot of eta-using midrange brands also see themselves as "traditional family businesses with an understanding of partnership".


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Somebody please let the Cat(s) out of the bag....which 2 movement makers have the high defect rates?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Well the one that's known is Tudor, with their new GMT movement (from the black bay gmts), apparently the date wheel gets out-of-alignment. (All their other movements, who knows, might be just fine).

The other brand, doc's not spilling the beans, but with that kind of disastrous rate (100% repair-needed...), I'm surprised af that there's no huge discussions all over wus about it.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

X2-Elijah said:


> The other brand, doc's not spilling the beans, but with that kind of disastrous rate (100% repair-needed...), I'm surprised af that there's no huge discussions all over wus about it.


Which, due respect to Chris and his source, is good reason to be skeptical of the claim.


----------



## Keracticus Pots (Sep 26, 2015)

docvail said:


> ....
> 
> He suggested that there's a pattern of extremely wealthy individuals who want to own a luxury marque buying these struggling businesses, owning them for some period of time, subsidizing their money-losing operations with additional out-of-pocket investments, then eventually tiring of it all, and selling the business to the next uber-wealthy guy in line. Wash, rinse, repeat.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you could be talking about Formula One team ownership. They say the best way to make a small fortune in F1: start with a large one.

KP


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

So what does all this mean? Now at the peak of the whole micro universe, with tremendous value for pretty detailed case works and upcoming original designs and everything we‘ll have to snag everything we can get hold of, because from 2020 on there will be an increase in prices at a decrease of quality? Dying-out one-hit-wonders and not-even-evolved/established-micros? 

When will one of the micros get bought by a major? That will be the turning point 

I need more watches. Definitely. Gotta catch them all. And keep them. Damn.


Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmmmm. This sounds a bit as if the eta-sales-shutdown will have a knock on effect of drastically reducing and eliminating a lot of the upstart kickstarter/microbrands.
> 
> Which, y'know, considering the increasing coverage across watch media and social channels, might not be far off from one of Swatch group's goals. Micros are, after all, stealing a lot of the "cool" factor away from swatch.


Indirectly, I think so.

If the supply of ETA movements dries up, even if Sellita can assemble their movements without any parts from ETA, it still dramatically reduces the number of affordable automatic movements for sale (more on this below), and the new suppliers like STP and Ronda don't appear able to replace what's being removed from the market (ditto).

That would seem to lead to the cost of all movements going up, and longer lead times, just because of supply and demand.

For the start-up micro that's been intent on under-pricing their products, that could change the math dramatically. They'll have to accept higher costs, possibly forcing them to raise prices, probably without their customers' acceptance of the new reality, and they could face challenges from sudden spikes in movement prices or sudden shortages of supply.

It's not all because of ETA. We're seeing capacity issues stemming from a shortage of skilled labor. Even without ETA cutting off supply, costs will inevitably go up, which will make it difficult for any "affordable" brand without much brand recognition or brand loyalty in the market.



X2-Elijah said:


> Although, as for why brands are in denial about eta's likelihood of pulling out... it might be an oldfashioned sticking to "but we're long-time business partners, you just don't do things like that! " principles.
> 
> You could see a heavy dose of that language recently from a German AD, Wempe, when they got upset about Nomos controlling their gray-market sales: Business News: Wempe Stops Selling Nomos After 20 Years | SJX Watches
> 
> I'd guess that a lot of eta-using midrange brands also see themselves as "traditional family businesses with an understanding of partnership".


That all may be true, but I don't know, because those aren't the people I talk to.

I'm talking to retailers, other microbrand owners, bloggers, etc, and piecing together what everyone tells me, connecting the dots to form a picture, and some of what I hear is no doubt based on past history, which may not repeat, or just people repeating what others have said to them.

If, say, Oris thinks their long-standing relationship with ETA counts for something, I'd question what would make Oris think that. As it happens, Oris is using Sellita movements, it seems, as is Sinn, and a lot of other brands in that price range. Perhaps that's a good indication of the value of having a "relationship" with Swatch Group - there isn't any.

Now, if Sellita can't become fully independent from ETA, and ETA does decide to cut off supply of movements and ebauches to third parties, that's the real killer.

As of 2014, Sellita was assembling 1.4 million movements, but they needed parts from ETA for those movements, and 600,000 of those movements were going back to ETA, either for use in Swatch Group watches, or for sale to third parties.

Assume half of the 600,000 ETA movements were for sale, Sellita's disappearance would mean 1.1 million fewer mechanical movements being available, in 2014 numbers, which were already down 12.5% from 2011, the year ETA received approval to begin cutting down on supply.

Compare that to Ronda's projected production capacity of 5,000 movements per year, and you get some sense of the seismic shift which may take place. I don't know what STP's capacity is, but I don't think they can deliver enough quality movements to fill the gap. Add a handful of other potential suppliers, and it's still not enough.

I think Swatch group sees the writing on the wall. They know that the mid-market ($400-$1000 retail price) is the only growth area in the market. Why would they want to supply competitors with movements for that price range?

So, we all switch to Miyota and Seiko? Okay, we should know that's going to increase their prices, and lead times, and lower quality in the short-term. Any small start-up who gets caught under-pricing is going to have a difficult time in that scenario.



X2-Elijah said:


> Well the one that's known is Tudor, with their new GMT movement (from the black bay gmts), apparently the date wheel gets out-of-alignment. (All their other movements, who knows, might be just fine).
> 
> The other brand, doc's not spilling the beans, but with that kind of disastrous rate (100% repair-needed...), I'm surprised af that there's no huge discussions all over wus about it.





uvalaw2005 said:


> Which, due respect to Chris and his source, is good reason to be skeptical of the claim.


It was't 100% repair-needed, it was 100% sent back to the factory by the retailer, before they shipped to customers.

It may sound like a distinction without a difference, but the difference is nuanced. If I ship 250 watches, and 50% have to come back for repair, you're going to hear about it. If I send all 250 back to the factory for repair, before I ship to customers, you probably won't.

That's why the story I've been told isn't yet public information, and may never be, unless the company goes out of business, which may happen. I'm not going to say anything publicly to hurt the company, not when I know what the backlash from some enthusiasts would be.

If the company goes out of business, odds are good someone else will tell the story before I even think to, and you'll hear it then. Otherwise, if/when I hear the company is kaput, I'll feel free to say what I've been told.

It may sound like an extremely rare and unbelievable thing, but...it isn't. There are several very well-known brands having a hard time maintaining quality and profitability without raising prices.

I spoke to a local high-end AD which ended their relationship with a very well-known, well-respected mid-range brand, over persistent quality issues. I heard about a well-known brand losing a lucrative, multi-year government contract after the government sent auditors in to ensure long-term financial stability wouldn't be a problem.

Fortis just got a new leadership team, following very well-known and severe quality issues. A number of mid-range brands are having real problems delivering product which has been on order for months, some more than a year, because they don't have enough skilled workers, but also because their failure/defect rates are so high.

You'll read press reports about a new supplier of a critical component, like hairsprings, or about a new in-house calibre from some brand, but you don't hear when the hairsprings or in-house calibre turn out to be a complete disaster.

You think the wait for a micro-brand pre-order or Kickstarter is long? There are "established" brands showing new models at Baselworld in early March, and can't deliver them by September, six months later.



Keracticus Pots said:


> Sounds like you could be talking about Formula One team ownership. They say the best way to make a small fortune in F1: start with a large one.
> 
> KP


Indeed, the same saying is used in this industry. The person who laid out that pattern to me likened it to owning a soccer team, or similar sort of ego-stroking, pseudo-glamorous business venture.

Another industry-insider I spoke to compared it to his past experience in real estate development. He said, "with real estate deals, one guy gets screwed, and the other guy makes a lot of money. In the watch industry, everybody screws everyone, but no one makes any money."

It's not just the uber-wealthy who fall prey to their own vanity. I've seen many a microbrand owner who seemed so desperate to describe themselves as a microbrand owner that they were willing to own a microbrand which didn't produce any profit.

And that, right there, the business owner who is willing to work for no profit, is what we're dealing with, for the time being. It's all well and good when the customer gets a good watch cheap, but look out when the bottom falls out for any of those businesses, and you've got the bad watch with no support coming.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> So what does all this mean? Now at the peak of the whole micro universe, with tremendous value for pretty detailed case works and upcoming original designs and everything we'll have to snag everything we can get hold of, because from 2020 on there will be an increase in prices at a decrease of quality? Dying-out one-hit-wonders and not-even-evolved/established-micros?
> 
> When will one of the micros get bought by a major? That will be the turning point
> 
> ...


There already is an increase in costs, and a decrease in quality, in some quarters, as we see the gold-rush continue. Not all of it seems to have filtered all the way through to the end-consumer, yet.

One-hit-wonders are all around, as are micros who are likely to prove stuck in place.

Micros might get bought up if and when someone sees a "real business" in them.

I've thought about doing something like a multi-brand store, selling other micros, and found the list of brands I'd feel confident investing in tragically short. When I look for those where I think I could add some value, and I filter for things like full-time management, solid design, solid pricing, strong social media following, clear brand identity, etc, I think I whittled a list of 60-ish brands down to six I thought would be viable partners.

There will always be new startups, but the question is how many start out strong, and are built to last? How many of the brand owners can stick it out long enough to make the business successful? How many have the skills needed? Starting a micro brand is easy. Building it up and running it like a real business is harder.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Explains why last years “new models” of Eterna are nowhere to be seen for sale and their website has not been updated. 

The loaners shown on watch fan sites are all we, the public, have been shown.

So far my bronze LE with new in-house movement has been excellent.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Go Sox!









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> So far my bronze LE with new in-house movement has been excellent.


I wish I could scrounge up the scratch for one of those, and then be able to justify it to myself afterwards. That is a seriously sexy watch...a panty dropper you might say.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Posted without further comment.










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

docvail said:


> Posted without further comment.


Almost pulled a last minute switch to the Skipjack when preorders went live, but I held strong on the Bahia. Glad I did!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

smkader said:


> Almost pulled a last minute switch to the Skipjack when preorders went live, but I held strong on the Bahia. Glad I did!


I believe the Bahia will be the sleeper hit of the bunch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nazario Sauro...










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Näcken Vintage White...










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Thats a very cool watch sir. :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Side by side of the Nazario and Näcken, just in case I need to prove the lume is a different color.










Side by side of the Bahia and Näcken, to show the bezel on the Bahia is in fact dark gun metal gray, not black.










Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

A look at the new clasp and bracelet...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Damn...

<Looks at current checking account balance>

Damn, damn, damn...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

o|o| o|


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

Long shot.. but if anyone has one of these new and improved bracelet/clasp that they'd be willing to sell, or trade for an old-style bracelet/clasp (with some money from me), please let me know! 



docvail said:


> A look at the new clasp and bracelet...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tc3 said:


> Long shot.. but if anyone has one of these new and improved bracelet/clasp that they'd be willing to sell, or trade for an old-style bracelet/clasp (with some money from me), please let me know!


I may have a few extras for sale. We'll add them to the website if/when we have them available.

Please, no one email me, asking me to set one aside, put you on the list for one, offer to pay in advance to reserve one, or any other such stuff.

If and when I have any available, they'll go on the website, we'll make an announcement that they're available, and the first people to buy them will get them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rusty nailing the 3D like a drunk prom date...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Uh-mazing. You're doing a lot of damage to wallets worldwide with that picture.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Rusty nailing the 3D like a drunk prom date...
> 
> View attachment 13568115


So what you're saying is that Rusty will never be nominated to serve on the Supreme Court...


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

...too soon?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Nazario Sauro...
> 
> [/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181017/453e308d5b6b95b5b6ec3ec6687c34d7.jpg[/IMG][/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181017/971e2a58a0d193e3894f99eb2cfd0f79.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!





docvail said:


> A look at the new clasp and bracelet...
> 
> [/video=youtube;cBkQ6TEN6Mw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBkQ6TEN6Mw[/video]


Way pumped for the incoming Nazario Sauro (say what you will but the dial still looks ever so slightly gray to me), and very much looking forward to trying the new clasp as well (although I'm not a bracelet guy so I'm sure off it will go sooner rather than later). Thanks for the live pics and video update, Doc!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Just ordered a Bahia No Date, adding to my Carolina and Catalina inbound que.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Way pumped for the incoming Nazario Sauro (say what you will but the dial still looks ever so slightly gray to me), and very much looking forward to trying the new clasp as well (although I'm not a bracelet guy so I'm sure off it will go sooner rather than later). Thanks for the live pics and video update, Doc!


It's definitely white, but how it looks is dependent on the light.

When I first saw it under indoor lighting, I thought my factory screwed up and used C3, or some other lume color, because it had a beige tint. But in the sunlight, it's clearly white, though the AR coating on the crystal has a slight blue tint, so it's possible that's what your eyes are detecting.

Shot a video - 




Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Looks friggin awesome! Thanks for the follow-up video—can’t wait.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Still digging this one even with the old bracelet style lol


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Nikita70 said:


> [/ATTACH=CONFIG]13571325[/ATTACH]
> 
> Still digging this one even with the old bracelet style lol


While I've slowly come to prefer the Nazario Sauro, this beauty has long been in my Watchrecon Alerts to no avail.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

ck2k01 said:


> While I've slowly come to prefer the Nazario Sauro, this beauty has long been in my Watchrecon Alerts to no avail.


I have a Nazario, and struggled to not get a Sauro to match. I think I've won for now on that front. Now to struggle against the full-lume Nacken. Love those black hands!


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Side by side of the Nazario and Näcken, just in case I need to prove the lume is a different color.


You should post pics of these in the White Dials thread. That could trigger some potential customers. I restarted some interest in Deaumar with my new white dial!


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

I see lots of Antilles photos but never blue...









Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MaxIcon said:


> You should post pics of these in the White Dials thread. That could trigger some potential customers. I restarted some interest in Deaumar with my new white dial!


Please feel free to be my guest.

I'm kind of over posting pics of the watches we make in various threads, even when they would seem relevant. I posted a pic of the Bahia in a thread about field watches, and some of the responses were pretty dickish. I'll do it here and there, but when is really a judgment call.

I posted the Nazario in that Cali dial thread, because the guy said he was looking for a WHITE Cali dial. In less clear-cut scenarios, I'll leave it to others to offer up the recommendations they see fit.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

winstoda said:


> I see lots of Antilles photos but never blue...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed, hardly see the blue at all, if ever, it does look absolutely superb. There was one on ebay just over a week ago and I had to get out of the house so as not to bid; I'd love this, but having Antilles white already, I really do have to draw a line with the size of the watch collection.....

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

What can I say? Oh my.


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

Ratfacedgit said:


> What can I say? Oh my.
> 
> View attachment 13575953
> 
> ...


Did the new Subs start shipping already?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

smkader said:


> Did the new Subs start shipping already?


No.

Ratface is local to me.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Alright, I’ll cede that the dial looks white in ratface’s shots 

Love the quirkiness of all of the colors on the Sauro!


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Näcken Vintage White...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am a little late but...this looks awesome!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nazario Sauro lume video -


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Alright, Iâ€™ll cede that the dial looks white in ratfaceâ€™s shots
> 
> Love the quirkiness of all of the colors on the Sauro!


Well, it's definitely not gray, so hopefully we can put that one to bed, but I will admit I often see a bit of color tint, in most lights, and most pics.

We did the white-dialed Antilles with BG W9, and I never noticed any tint in its color, so I can only speculate that the tint I'm seeing has something to do with the Nazario's rice-paper dial texture, or the Subs' double-layer of AR coating under the crystal.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Heh, no need to humor me with an explanation—just passing time while I wait for John to finish his QC and boxing! Looking forward to posting some pics to accompany ratface’s soon.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

So doc, any thoughts on the Miyota 8315 movement? (seemingly a new replacement/upgrade for 8215, with added hacking and ~60hr power reserve... there's a thread on f2 about it)


----------



## pb9610 (Dec 30, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> So doc, any thoughts on the Miyota 8315 movement? (seemingly a new replacement/upgrade for 8215, with added hacking and ~60hr power reserve... there's a thread on f2 about it)


What is the beat rate?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> So doc, any thoughts on the Miyota 8315 movement? (seemingly a new replacement/upgrade for 8215, with added hacking and ~60hr power reserve... there's a thread on f2 about it)


Interesting. First I've heard of it.

I'd be interested in hearing how different it is from the 8215. I get that it hacks, and has a longer power reserve. But is the seconds hand still indirectly driven? I assume it still has the 21.6kbph beat rate? I further assume it has the same thickness as the 8215? I'm wondering if there are other reasons to like it, beyond the hacking and longer PR.

When someone proposed to me that the longer PR of the Seiko NE15 (6r15) was enough to offset the thinness and higher beat rate of the 9015, I wasn't a believer, and sure enough, a poll we did at the time proved that people preferred the 9015.

60 hours isn't so much longer than ~40 hours that it would seem to be a feature people would be willing to pay more to get, if the alternative is a movement with a higher beat rate, thinner profile, or other, more preferable features. However, if the 8235 and Seiko's NH35 seem roughly equivalent otherwise, I could see people preferring the 8235's longer PR.

The catch is that indirectly driven hand, and people's persistent complaints about its stuttering motion. A recent discussion of a "Swiss" version (read: a Swiss-ified, hacking Chinese clone of the 8215) had me looking into them, trying to figure out the cause of the seconds hand jumping when the watch was un-hacked. Sure enough, it seems the jumping seconds hand, or seconds hand stutter, was presenting itself in an obvious, and apparently annoying way, when people pushed their crowns in after setting the time.

Adding hacking and a longer PR to the 8215 is nice, but I think I'll reserve judgment until I hear about people's actual experience. It's not like I was planning on doing any NH35-based models anytime soon, anyway, so I won't be faced with a dilemma about whether or not to use the 8315 instead.

Now, if this means Miyota may lengthen the PR on the 9015, if being another alternative helps to hold down movement prices, or if this pushes Seiko to advance the ball on a replacement for their aging NE15*, those would all be positive side-effects of this new development.

*A Seiko rep I spoke to in HK hinted that we'd see a replacement for the NE15 soon. He seemed to get that the longer PR wasn't enough to offset the 9015's thinness and higher beat rate, which I took as a positive, but he seemed to equivocate with regards to whether or not *Seiko* understands that.

Sleep better at night with Tapatalk. Your money goes up with the talk, but never down!


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> Interesting. First I've heard of it.
> 
> I'd be interested in hearing how different it is from the 8215. I get that it hacks, and has a longer power reserve. But is the seconds hand still indirectly driven? I assume it still has the 21.6kbph beat rate? I further assume it has the same thickness as the 8215? I'm wondering if there are other reasons to like it, beyond the hacking and longer PR.
> 
> ...


Good to hear that Seiko may be paying attention as they really, Really need to revamp their affordable movements as at the prices they are charging for 6r15 equipped watches, they are ripping off the buyers.

The rest of the 6Rxx line beat at 28,8k bph and the 6r15 should too. The 9015 has been eating their lunch for a few years now and Seiko needs to get with the program in the $500-$1k market segment. The 6r15 just doesn't cut it over $500.

The two 6r15 I sprang for, I waited until they were under $500 on the grey market before buying them, and I really had to think about it. The Alpinist at $356 and a gorgeous 3.0 jade Monster.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

BR > PR


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Apropos Miyota versus Seiko...

I'm an unrepentant and blatant Seiko fanboy. But my Miyota-powered NTH Sub, accuracy-wise, kicks the snot out of my 6r15 SARB017 all day, and twice on Sundays. OTOH, my twenty-year old Seiko kinetic gives the Miyota a run for its money but that's kinda apples-versus-oranges.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Blue on blue.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Doc, I think that I saw you mention something (BSHT thread maybe.....?) about you doing something special for those that wear sub homages exclusively. Can't find it now, but was I imagining it? And if not any chance of sharing some more details?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hornet99 said:


> Doc, I think that I saw you mention something (BSHT thread maybe.....?) about you doing something special for those that wear sub homages exclusively. Can't find it now, but was I imagining it? And if not any chance of sharing some more details?


I did, it was, you weren't, and no chance.

Have to wait until we're ready to do the reveal.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I did, it was, you weren't, and no chance.
> 
> Have to wait until we're ready to do the reveal.


Fair enough Doc. Is the big reveal before the end of the year?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hornet99 said:


> Fair enough Doc. Is the big reveal before the end of the year?


I think so, but it's hard to know when to reveal a new design when we're still dealing with production/delivery delays on the models currently in production.

Ideally, I like to get the current production in, start shipping, see that secondary wave of sales which happens when all those wrist-shots hit the web, then, when that wave subsides, reveal the next designs, to re-ignite the buzz. I don't like to reveal new designs when I think doing so would overshadow the buzz about the last models.

With the current production now a month behind schedule, and deliveries not being fully made until November, I can't yet say if I'd reveal the next thing coming before the end of the year.

Probably, we will do the reveal by then, but at this moment, I don't know for sure.


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

I'm so glad I joined the club... Doc, you knocked it totally out of the park with the Nazario Sauro.


----------



## Ruggs (Apr 1, 2016)

That new clasp looks great Doc.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Cool blue on a cloudy day


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

The Nazario Sauro is probably the 1st NTH watch I really feel like I may miss out on. Responsibilities, kids, bills, blah. I want it and I want it now. Smashing good show Doc. Would you take a Raymond Weil in a trade?

I'm surprised there are still some available, makes the temptation that much greater. Expected them to be gone in pre-order.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skuzapo said:


> I'm so glad I joined the club... Doc, you knocked it totally out of the park with the Nazario Sauro.
> View attachment 13590565
> View attachment 13590567


Tell all your friends. If they got a Jones, Watch Gauge has their fix.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Ratfacedgit said:


> .


That's an awesome example of case engraving, and the Acionna dial really looks great with it.

Having just spent some time poking around in RF matchboxes and filter networks, it strikes me that the hour markers look just like surface mount traces for circuit boards. Just saying...

Also, struggling with pulling the trigger on the Nazario Sauro. It's been a tough month, and I deserve a reward!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> That's an awesome example of case engraving, and the Acionna dial really looks great with it.
> 
> Having just spent some time poking around in RF matchboxes and filter networks, it strikes me that *the hour markers look just like surface mount traces for circuit boards*. Just saying...
> 
> Also, struggling with pulling the trigger on the Nazario Sauro. It's been a tough month, and I deserve a reward!


I'm assuming you mean the non-numerical markers.

*Fun fact/true story* - back when we came up with the design for the Acionna, I wasn't yet as particular about all the little details in each new model, and would let my factory figure out how best to execute based on the illustrations we'd send them.

In my mind, those were just meant to be run-of-the-mill applied stick markers with lume patches on top. For some reason, my factory at the time decided to invent a new marker style. Those are actually little tubes filled with liquid lume, and capped at each end with a little metal part.

Don't ask me how or why they did that. I liked how the protos came out, so we ran with it. I've never seen any other watch with markers made that way, but the lume on that one is outstanding.

















*Fun fact/true story about the engraved Acionna* - the protos from our first factory always had something wrong with them, so I'd usually end up sticking the protos in my desk drawer once production was done. I had the Acionna protos there when "Mr. Peanut" Brad Homes told me he'd enrolled in the TimeZone home-study course in watchmaking.

In an unusual fit of generosity, I decided to send one of the protos to Brad, telling him to do something watchmaker-ish with it. I wasn't sure what I expected that to be, just figured he'd appreciate having something for practice work.

He didn't do anything watchamker-ish with it (bastard), and instead, eventually sent it off to Viljo Marandi (forum user Vilts) for engraving. Getting a watch engraved by Viljo was what all the cool kids were doing at that time. I was even thinking about having him engrave an Acionna for me, with a tentative plan to ask for a celtic pattern, in keeping with the model's name. Acionna was a Gallo-Roman (read: "Celtic") water nymph, or some such.

But then Brad beat me to it (bastard). I don't know if anyone ever came right out and said it, but it seemed at the time that the unspoken rule on the forum was that no one was allowed to copy anyone else's engraving theme.

Anyhoo, Brad enjoyed the watch (and probably, my stewing about it) for a couple years, before offering it back to me. I enjoyed having it for the next couple years, but like so many of my watches, it wasn't being worn, and I eventually agreed to sell it to RatFace.

Good pics from Brad (or maybe Viljo), showing the details. Note the 4 o'clock crown is missing the L&H "Sparky" logo.

















*Last fun fact/true story, related to the Acionna* - before he started Tangramatic, Francis "Bombfish" Del Mundo was commissioned to come up with the caseback designs for the Cerberus, Orthos, the ill-fated/aborted in-utero Legends Racer, and the Phantom.

Because we'd already made the Acionna (and with a transparent caseback at that), there was no reason for him to create a caseback design for that one, but he did anyway. I guess he was bored that day. I really wished I'd have made his acquaintance earlier, because his design is like all the other stuff he draws - awesome.









I used to have a folder on my old laptop, for all the draft doodles and designs Francis sent me. Just some really cool concepts. I lost track of it when my old machine broke, which is a bummer, because some of those illustrations just made me smile.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Some artwork of Bombfish I still have on my machine...









^My forum avatar was his caseback design for the Cerberus.









^A draft/rejected Cerberus caseback design, which I thought would be too complex to engrave in steel.









^The Legends Racer caseback. This is what actual Legends race series cars look like. I loved how he took the 12-6 racing numbers and the trapezoid shapes from the dial and incorporated them into the numbers and decorations on the cars.









Some of his early concept drawings for the Orthos caseback:

















Getting closer to what we finally came up with...









Final...









I love this.

Orthos was a "doublet" (read: sibling) of Cerberus. Whereas Cerberus was the three-headed dog guarding the gates of Hades, according to myth, Orthos and his master Eurytion were charged with guarding the three-headed giant Geryon's herd of red cattle in the "sunset" land of Erytheia ("red one"), an island in the far west of the Mediterranean.

I loved how Francis re-imagined Orthos as a serpentine koi-dog, guarding the cattle by circling the island, pictured against the setting sun.

Here's one he did for "Project Hydra", a model we never made, with a bit of a "spider" theme, obviously:









I can't find the drafts he did for that one, but when we were working on it, he sent me a doodle of a multi-headed dog sniffing at a spider coming down on a web from overhead. Really wish I could find it.

And of course, the Phantom caseback - dead-head combat pilot, F4 dropping bombs on his helmet, complete with anatomically-correct skeleton-Sparky...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ho. Lee. Crap.

Looking through my computer files, and what do I find?

I think these are the first draft 3D's Rusty ever sent me...

































It's amazing I hired him.


----------



## thejollywatcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Perfection has landed.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

thejollywatcher said:


> Perfection has landed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Glad you like it.

Besides RatFace's pics, this is the first one I've seen in the wild.

There's no prize or anything.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'm assuming you mean the non-numerical markers.
> 
> *Fun fact/true story* - back when we came up with the design for the Acionna, I wasn't yet as particular about all the little details in each new model, and would let my factory figure out how best to execute based on the illustrations we'd send them.
> 
> ...


^^ THIS - is _real_ watchmaking heritage.

Yes, you could have been beavering away for the last 100 years in a Swiss hamlet making coma inducing replications of the same old, but perleeze, let's have some soul and spirit sprinkled with a dose of attitude. Of course, we see some or all of these particular attributes manifest with many watchmakers these days, particularly within the so-called "Microbrand" sector and I, for one, relish each new iteration as they are released, just a mighty big shame that I can't own them all......

As for those pieces of art work, they are striking and totally viable for the back of a watch case; personally, I'm really not that bovved about the back of a watch, the action for me is the dial and case, but the F4 bombing the Tits off the Dawg on the back of the Phantom, now that's worth sharing with an appreciative audience, it's brilliant!!

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Well it's been a day with the NS, and I just have to post a glowing review since I've been playing around with a UV flashlight before the sun comes up. (pun intended)

First off, a showoff shot comparing to the rest of my main pieces immediately after a UV blast. 
The top row are my first stringers, bottom are kept for if I feel like changing it up (hence why they aren't set) These are:
Glycine Combat Sub Stealth (black lume), Evant Decodiver, Zodiac Super Sea Wolf 53 compression, NTH Nazario Sauro, Seagull 1963 (no lume)
$10 HMT franken pilot (no lume), $10 franken oris (no lume), Vostok Komandirskie, Parnis Explorer homage (no lume), Dan Henry 1970.
The Nazario seems like it would give indiglo a run for its money immediately after exposure.








While the light output on its own is cool, where it really shines is in twilight/dawn and settings with lots of angular lighting. Flicking the wrist around you can cast parts of the dial into the dark to glow while others remain naturally lit , which looks amazing.
















I've also caught hints of like a pinkish beige in the dial depending on the lighting. Really works with the early-mid century feel of the piece. 
With the texture and the depth (one detail that really stood out is the rounded down edges of the indices, really catching the light in interesting ways and making it seem like the hour markers are floating) this is an extremely impressive watch and great value. Love the packaging as well.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Hey Doc. 
Do we have to make a new account on the Nth site?


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Black on black for today.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Hey Doc. 
Do we have to make a new account on the Nth site? Or does it all port over? 

Sorry if this question has been asked, I did look around at the FAQ's and found nothing. Thou I am at work so undercover.... lol


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Hey Doc.
> Do we have to make a new account on the Nth site? Or does it all port over?
> 
> Sorry if this question has been asked, I did look around at the FAQ's and found nothing. Thou I am at work so undercover.... lol


When I established a new account on the new site, it "knew who I was" and had moved over my points, etc. So, in answer to your question from my perspective, you need to register, but it'll find your stuff...


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I thought this might happen but was a bit apprehensive to click on activate link in my inbox.

Thanks man.



dmjonez said:


> When I established a new account on the new site, it "knew who I was" and had moved over my points, etc. So, in answer to your question from my perspective, you need to register, but it'll find your stuff...


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Curious about the new account on new website. I have my Carolina on preorder, should I create a new account on the new website, or I will still receive notification when it is about to ship from the old website?


----------



## thejollywatcher (Jul 30, 2009)

On Erika's Original MN strap.

Lots to love about the design  and the big crown. 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Hey Doc.
> Do we have to make a new account on the Nth site?


The new site doesn't have a "log in" feature. Your customer data is stored on the back end, tied to whatever email you use, but there's no "address book" or anything like on the old site.

The loyalty rewards program is still there, and you may need to reset your password if yours was one of the newer orders/accounts created on the old site.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Ho. Lee. Crap.
> 
> Looking through my computer files, and what do I find?
> 
> ...


Ok. So I've gotten a little better...










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

****WARNING: LONG UNBOXING/MINI-REVIEW POST AHEAD****

I'm pleased that others beat me to posting photos of their new Nazario Sauros--those pictures looks great!

I had expressed interest to Doc (in this thread) and John (via email) several times about another Nazario run (I love California dials, as well as the obscure Rolex reference inspirations for the Nazarios). So when I learned of the Nazario Sauro, I promptly requested that John save me a pre-order spot. I'd been eagerly awaiting the arrival of the watch since. Thus, it was with a fair deal of anticipation that I picked up my Nazario Sauro last night from FedEx.

Because this is the fifth NTH Sub that I've owned to date, and because I was so excited about the Nazario Sauro, I thought to take unboxing shots, along with some various strap combination shots, which I'd accompany with some mini-review style comments. Here goes!

















*First look at the dial and bezel: winning.*

























I really enjoyed my time with the NTH Santa Fe (the full-lume dial was too cool and atypical to not give a go), so much so that I modded mine with Snowflake hands; I even considered engraving the case back with a line from REM's Nightswimming, inspired by someone's review of the watch. However, the monochrome (black and white) color scheme ultimately proved too stark given my typical clothing palette of grays, browns, blues, etc. So I let it go to a fellow member.

The last California dial I had on the wrist was a Seiko SNK that I modded for an ex-girlfriend. I loved it. I also love the form factor of the NTH Subs. So I kept a close lookout for a pre-owned Nazario for months, but to no avail--no one was flipping his or hers.

When I first saw the Nazario Sauro teaser pics, I thought, "Finally!"; and then, on the one hand, "Full lume? Hell yeah," but on the other hand, "Hmm, I dig it, but light dials rarely stay in my collection for long, so I don't know if this is the variant I'm really after." However, after much starring at the pre-release shots, I came to appreciate the quirkiness of the light and textured dial, steel bezel, and little splashes of red, blue, and yellow (gold). I was in.

The dial and bezel don't fail to disappoint live. As I enjoyed joshing Doc about, the dial in the flesh is unmistakably white with a slight hint of beige--it definitely doesn't have any gray tones 

The little splashes of color--red, blue, and gold--throughout the monochromatic dial and bezel are, in my opinion, brilliant. They perfectly solved the problems I had with the Santa Fe. That is, that the black bezel and white dial were too sharp of a contrast for versatile wear for me, and the pure black-and-white color palette left me wanting . . ."something"--the something of which Doc, Aaron, and John figured out for this release.

The dial texture-sort of popcorn ceiling-like, is very endearing. Doc's use of textured dials on some of the NTH Sub variants is one of my favorite aspects of this line. Clearly: I've owned the Amphion Vintage and Santa Fe, and currently own the Vintage Nacken and now this. The use of subtle texture just adds another layer of interest/style to the dial.

*The refinements to the bracelet and clasp are readily noticeable.*

If memory serves me (I'm not a metal bracelet guy, so I didn't follow Doc's updates about this all that closely), the bracelet links were tweaked for greater range of motion, and the clasp was upgraded.

Indeed, the links feel more flexible than the prior incarnation, especially at the connection with the end link.

















The new clasp (still a pushbutton deployment safety clasp) has a higher-end look and feel than the original (see comparison pictures below). The safety was difficult to open (I imagine this is why it has a little play even when snapped-so that you can get some leverage to pry it open), but since I was eager to get the bracelet off to try out some different straps, I didn't fiddle with it much to ensure that I was manipulating it correctly, or to see if it would loosen up some with regular use. Including one of those micro quick-adjustment tabs would have been awesome, but knowing Doc, I imagine he considered and decided against it for a logical reason. I also happened to find the spring bars very difficult to remove, which I imagine has something to do with the robustness of the spring bars and/or the end link design. Again, I'd have bought the watch without the bracelet if I had been given the option in light of my personal style, so none of these critiques matters much to me, but I figured I'd mention them to be objective and not overly fan-boyish (which my signature gives away that I am).

























































View attachment 13593479










*Now on to some strap combinations.*

*Navy blue nato--this could be my favorite combination of those I tried:*

























*New Bond nato:*

















*Gray nato:*

















*Light brown distressed leather nato--varying it up a bit, to good effect IMO:*

















































*Beads of rice--nicely quirky:*

I've always found beads of rice to be a quirky look, despite the fact that some regard them as one of the dressier metal bracelet styles (whereas they strike me as more casual). So I thought it'd be a cool look to try, to match the aforementioned quirky qualities of the watch head. I think this may be my go-to metal option.

























*Lest I forget . . .*

Finally, while today's Nor'easter has precluded good natural charing, I would be remiss not to end this post without saying and documenting: full-dial lume like a boss (this watch is so cool that you forget it also has this epic feature)!









If there's any of these left at WatchGauge, I highly recommend picking one up before they're gone. If they prove anything like the Nazario, they'll be frustratingly difficult to come by secondhand.

Great job with this one, Doc and co.! I think I have a keeper


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Is it just me or does the security flap on the new clasp have a bit of play? It seems a bit loose, I can wiggle it around (up and down) when both the clasp and the security flap are closed.


----------



## thejollywatcher (Jul 30, 2009)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

thejollywatcher said:


> [/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181027/a19f31b23347aaa17ddd51ab9fd12e20.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> [/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181027/30a8bef05b84fcf3843150b11b7ecfe9.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> ...


That Erika's pairing is banging. I think it's my favorite combo thus far.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Wow! Suddenly need a cigarette after such a slow seductive un-boxing and reveal. 

Nice photos and write-up. Enjoy!

Can't wait for the Carolina!

Love me a Wall-o-text!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re - the Nazario's design* - Rusty deserves no credit. That was Aaron (@synaptyx), me, and John.

*Re - the clasp being hard to open* - my watchmaker is now doing final QC, and he checked all the clasps. He reported to me that he found 5 or 10 clasps with safety catches which were hard to open.

He identified the cause as some polishing compound residue remaining in the mechanism. He found that working those clasps a bit sorted them out, but if you find yours is still hard to open, try running some warm water over the clasp to rinse away any compound which may still be there.

*Re - play in the clasp* - I was about to write that there shouldn't be any, but just checked a couple here. When laying flat, there's no play in the clasp, but, if your wrist shape, and/or where the clasp is positioned on your wrist causes the "shell" part to be pushed upward, that will lever the clasp loose, and create play. See video to see what I mean:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Wow! Suddenly need a cigarette after such a slow seductive un-boxing and reveal.
> 
> Nice photos and write-up. Enjoy!
> 
> ...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Oh.
My.
God.

That Nazario Sauro.

Actually "Hate" Cali dials, but this watch with that bezel colour and other contrasting elements, it's just a heart-breaker seeing these in-the-wild pics.

Please sell them mucho rapido John.......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Oh.
> My.
> God.
> 
> ...


Speaking of those colors, here's a thing...

Perhaps a month ago, someone in a Facebook group asked if anyone knew whether or not the "blued" hands on the Tissel pilot were heat-blued, or just blued some other way.

I admit that I personally am NOT overly emotional about the watches I wear, so it may just be that I don't and never will "get" why people ask such things, and why I instead tend to look at those sort of things more logically (I think).

My response was, in a nutshell - "It's a $200 Chinese-made automatic from Korea with a generic flieger design. Who cares? What are you expecting for $200?"

I may have been slightly more delicate than that, but not much.

"Heat-blued" whatever, real "fume" dials, true "guilloche" textures, and many other such hallmarks of true "horology" - I don't expect many, if any such things in any "affordable" watch, and it always seems to make all my mental gears seize up when people ask such questions about affordable watches. They're AFFORDABLE. Who cares? What are you expecting? Does it change how the dial looks if I tell you it was airbrushed, rather than the dial maker holding it over a candle flame?

In the case of the Tissel pilot - it's a black dial. Heat-blued hands tend to look black in most lights. As it happens, the hands on the Tissel looked bright blue, which I'd think would increase legibility, and people would appreciate that, especially given the handful of complaints I'd received about the black-framed hands on the L&H Phantom.

But, we're talking about the Nazario Sauro. Are the hands heat-blued? No. They're IP-plated, which is just another term for PVD-coated. When we got them in, I took a look, and I have to say, they sure looked black in most lights to me, enough to make me think I could convince some folks that they are in fact heat-blued, if I wanted to pull a fast one.

I'm not trying to make any subtle point about our quality, or my honesty. I'm making the not-at-all-subtle point that quality and a good appearance can be achieved without relying on needlessly expensive techniques which add cost but no real value. I don't know that I'll ever get why someone would feel more or less appreciation for the watch on their own wrist because the hands were authentically "heat-blued", if the appearance is the same.

I'm happy we went with blued hands. I think they look good. Anyone who wants to sneer that they're not "heat-blued" can bite me.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

'Nuff said Doc, all of the colours meld into an overall oneness with this watch, it really is a doozer. As for heat-blued, there is a whole list of last century hangover "so what's??" in horology that traditionalists - for want of a better term - hang onto as if the World stopped turning, thank the Lord things are forever changing and moving on, that's what keeps calcifying boredom at bay.

Keep the faith Doc.

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Hi Doc,

Do I understand you correctly - is the play in the security catch normal with all new clasps or do just some of them have this issue?

Mine is constantly quite wobbly and I fear of getting stuck with it on table corners or the like.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Sooooooo when are ya gonna start using pattern-welded (aka Damascus) steels, doc?


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

This today for me....


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Every time I put this on as part of my rotation, I am reminded how astounding this piece is, from the small profile, comfortable size, good WR, and excellent lume, particularly on a sunny day. This watch was made for days like this.


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

After 5 months of waiting, it is finally here.

And it is stunning - I can't stop staring at it. Thanks Doc for making such a beautiful watch!

Right now it's on a Bond nato which is - true 007 style - a bit too narrow 

As it's my first 20mm lug width watch, I'm going strap shopping tomorrow


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



karmadrome said:


> Hi Doc,
> 
> Do I understand you correctly - is the play in the security catch normal with all new clasps or do just some of them have this issue?
> 
> Mine is constantly quite wobbly and I fear of getting stuck with it on table corners or the like.


Did you watch the video?

There's no play I'm aware of in the clasp, if it's sitting flat. There may be some play introduced if you lever the catch up with the part under it.

If there seems to be an actual problem, please email us or contact us through the website. Let's not try to do troubleshooting or support via the forum.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Sooooooo when are ya gonna start using pattern-welded (aka Damascus) steels, doc?


No plans.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

ETA: Hmmph. For some reason WUS rotated this 90 degrees. Whatev.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

A rainy Sunday.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

BTW, Doc, loving the new clasps. I actually bought the same model (minus the NTH engraving) back in the spring to replace the original clasp on my DR. Any chance you'll be selling these under "accessories" for folks who want to upgrade?


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Disneydave said:


> A rainy Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bravo on the strap selection. That looks really good.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Day 2 of the NS


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Coriolanus said:


> BTW, Doc, loving the new clasps. I actually bought the same model (minus the NTH engraving) back in the spring to replace the original clasp on my DR. Any chance you'll be selling these under "accessories" for folks who want to upgrade?


May I have a link to the clasp. Pm if you prefer


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> May I have a link to the clasp. Pm if you prefer


PM sent.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

ck2k01 said:


> Day 2 of the NS
> 
> View attachment 13595843
> 
> ...


With that BOR bracelet, the Knees of the Bee....... precious metal right there........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> BTW, Doc, loving the new clasps. I actually bought the same model (minus the NTH engraving) back in the spring to replace the original clasp on my DR. Any chance you'll be selling these under "accessories" for folks who want to upgrade?


The clasp by themselves, no. I may have some extra bracelets for sale at some point.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> . . .
> 
> *Re - play in the clasp* - I was about to write that there shouldn't be any, but just checked a couple here. When laying flat, there's no play in the clasp, but, if your wrist shape, and/or where the clasp is positioned on your wrist causes the "shell" part to be pushed upward, that will lever the clasp loose, and create play. See video to see what I mean:
> 
> [/video=youtube;IL3eeUi4o4w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL3eeUi4o4w[/video]


My takeaway from this video: "Hey guy, thanks for criticizing my clasps. You have an awkward wrist."


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ragl said:


> With that BOR bracelet, the Knees of the Bee....... precious metal right there........
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


With the combo, I'm more steel than this guy:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> My takeaway from this video: "Hey guy, thanks for criticizing my clasps. You have an awkward wrist."


I wouldn't put it quite that way.

We tested all the clasps we've shipped so far. We found some of those had safety-catches which could be a bit hard to open, but we haven't found any with any noticeable play in them. But it's a small, moving part, just held in place with friction, which can be overcome.

If someone found the catch on their clasp was coming open on its own, it may be that they're wearing the bracelet so tight that the clasp is popping open when they flex their wrist a certain way, which is the only way I've ever been able to replicate that particular issue.

If you apply enough pressure from under the clasp, yeah, it'll pop open. That's not a "defect", that's just force overcoming friction.

There's no real objective test for how easily one of those catches should open. It either works as it should, with some reasonably small amount of variation expected from one piece to the next, or it doesn't.

If it's popping open, you're wearing it too tight. If there's some play in the catch, a gentle squeeze of the sides should tighten it up.

If it's not working as it should, we'll sort it out, but sometimes we find that the part works exactly as it should, but a customer somehow found a way to make it not work as it should, or just doesn't understand (or refuses to believe) that that's just how it works.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You guys posting mini-reviews here...

I'm always happy to hear peeps are happy with the watches they got from us, and if you feel most comfortable posting those comments in this thread, okay. 

That said, you're "preaching to the choir" here, and you'd reach more people posting those reviews as their own threads. 

Just sayin'...


----------



## thejollywatcher (Jul 30, 2009)

On Watch Gecko leather.














































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> You guys posting mini-reviews here...
> 
> I'm always happy to hear peeps are happy with the watches, and if feel most comfortable posting those comments in this thread, great. That said, you're "preaching to the choir" here, and you'd reach more people posting those reviews as their own threads.
> 
> Just sayin'...


The post length got away from me, and I sure as s**t wasn't uploading a single photo at a time again elsewhere


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

docvail said:


> I wouldn't put it quite that way.
> 
> We tested all the clasps we've shipped so far. We found some of those had safety-catches which could be a bit hard to open, but we haven't found any with any noticeable play in them. But it's a small, moving part, just held in place with friction, which can be overcome.
> 
> ...


Doc, I sent you a PM.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Where can we purchase the BOR bracelet that fits the subs?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



yankeexpress said:


> Where can we purchase the BOR bracelet that fits the subs?


If asking about the one I'm using, = a WatchGecko BOR bracelet.

Just a heads up that the end links are far from a flush fit, height-wise. I'm just not very particular when it comes to that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

karmadrome said:


> Doc, I sent you a PM.


You're much better off contacting him via his website. I'm fairly certain Doc doesn't do PMs here or anywhere else.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Edit: Woohoo! First double-post!


----------



## soufiane (Jul 23, 2012)

I wonder if Doc is going to make anymore Nacken in black. They seem to be sold out that’s a handsome watch! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## soufiane (Jul 23, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> .


Beautiful

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

karmadrome said:


> Doc, I sent you a PM.


I don't do PM's. Please look at my signature.

Sorry if I seem draconian in this, but I need ALL customers to understand. We have an efficient system in place for customer support. It's all managed by emails, to include submissions of the contact page on our site, which come to us by email.

We can forward, CC, reply all, track, flag, and attach docs to emails. We can't do all that with direct/private messages on the forum or other social media sites, so I insist that every customer who needs support go through the proper channel, the one we have set up, and the one we direct all customers to - email/contact page on the website.

If there's a problem, everyone knows how to reach us for support - by email, or the contact page on our website. I hired a virtual assistant for the express purpose of making sure we can provide timely support, even when I'm busy with other tasks.

Don't IM me on IG. Don't DM me on FB. Don't tweet at me. Don't message me on the forum. Don't post a comment directed at me on the forum, not here, not in some other thread. None of those channels are monitored for support.

Everyone say it with me now - email, or the contact page on the website.

Those are the ONLY two ways to get support from us. But if you use either, I offer you a 100% unconditional guarantee you will receive fast and courteous service from us.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> If asking about the one I'm using, = a WatchGecko BOR bracelet.
> 
> Just a heads up that the end links are far from a flush fit, height-wise. I'm just not very particular when it comes to that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I believe they or another source have "Submariner" end-links, which I think I've heard do fit the NTH Subs' lugs fairly well, FWIW.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

soufiane said:


> I wonder if Doc is going to make anymore Nacken in black. They seem to be sold out that's a handsome watch!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We may.

Sign up for our email newsletter on our website, which is how we'll announce it if we make more available.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> I don't do PM's. Please look at my signature.
> 
> Sorry if I seem draconian in this, but I need ALL customers to understand. We have an efficient system in place for customer support. It's all managed by emails, to include submissions of the contact page on our site, which come to us by email.
> 
> ...


Just to follow up on all that...

If there seems to be some mechanical issue, expect us to want to do some troubleshooting before arranging a return. Your cooperation is appreciated. You'd be surprised how often troubleshooting reveals the root cause of an issue is user error in use or observation. Nothing holds up the process of providing support more than someone who doesn't cooperate with troubleshooting.

If there seems to be some aesthetic/cosmetic issue, expect us to want to see pics showing the issue in question. Please send them, good ones, in focus, straight-on, from an appropriate observation distance, etc. Understand that "obvious" issues don't typically require 100x magnification to see, and that we can't tell much from out-of-focus pics taken at extreme angles, or from across the room.

If there's some issue with some moving part, like a clasp, let's say, we may want to see a short video, showing the issue. You don't need to be Cecil B. Demille. Just shoot a short video with your phone, and either send us the file, or if it's too large to email, post it up on YT, and send us a link. Understand that moving parts may have some small amount of play in them, because they move, and movement requires something less than a too-tight-to-move fitment between parts.

Understand the returns policy is very straight-forward. You've got 30 days to look at, time, and inspect the watch, even under high magnification.

If there's some issue which falls OUTSIDE our QC standards, something we should have caught but missed, I'll happily REPLACE the watch for you, if that's your preference. If you'd rather have a REFUND, that's also available as an option. But in both cases, the watch needs to still be in AS-DELIVERED condition.

If it's not still in as-delivered condition, we can sort out any mechanical issue or issue arising from incorrect assembly under warranty, and quickly, but once you accept the watch - by altering its condition - you own it. At that point, even if there's some small cosmetic issue we should have caught in QC, I may not be able or willing to address it, if you've altered the condition, preventing us from returning the item to inventory once we've sorted it out, or if we're unable to sort it out, as the case may be.

If whatever the issue is falls WITHIN our QC standards, then there's nothing to fix, and I'm not arguing the point with anyone. If it's still in as-delivered condition, you can return it for a REFUND. I'll return the item to inventory for sale, and return your money to you. I'm not replacing it. Why would I, if there's nothing to fix?

If you've been wearing the watch, again, I'm not arguing with you about what is or is not a defect, or what is or is not within our QC standards. You wore it, you accepted the condition and quality, and you now own it. At that point, any issues which arise need to be addressed under warranty, and the warranty covers only those which are clearly a mechanical malfunction, or the result of incorrect assembly.

Again, sorry if all the above sounds "angry" (it isn't), or draconian. I've just been at this too long to have the patience necessary to mollycoddle every guy who expects perfection down to the microscopic level, and wants to b1tch about microscopic issues after he's been wearing the watch for a month.

All of the above is why we go to great lengths to tell all customers to inspect all items thoroughly on delivery, so we can avoid the occasional dust-up with someone who didn't, yet expects us to remedy their mistake later on.

If the thought "I'll just file a PayPal or credit card dispute, and then we'll see" enters your mind, shoo it away. My record in these regards is spotless, as in, 100%. Over the course of more than 4,000 transactions, I've been involved in exactly two (2) disputes not involving credit card fraud, and I won both, easily, and quickly. I know what I'm doing.

The product is good. The price is fair. The service is excellent. The only people we can't please are those with unreasonable expectations.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I believe they or another source have "Submariner" end-links, which I think I've heard do fit the NTH Subs' lugs fairly well, FWIW.


I believe I'm using the curved end links WatchGecko used to sell specifically for their BOR bracelet. (Unfortunately they no longer appear to sell them.)

I defer to your memory as to another potential source or set of end links that work well with the Subs and BOR bracelets.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Mmmm afaik/iirc it was the watchgecko bracelet endlinks, as they were billed as 'submariner endlinks'.

And yes, they do ride lower than the lugs, it's just that the profile/shape matches really well so it still goes together


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Is there play in the clasp (part two)...


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I believe I'm using the curved end links WatchGecko used to sell specifically for their BOR bracelet. (Unfortunately they no longer appear to sell them.)
> 
> I defer to your memory as to another potential source or set of end links that work well with the Subs and BOR bracelets.


When I saw that great bracelet/watch combo last posted, WatchGecko was out of stock of the BOR bracelet, and had been for some time. They did have the end links (folded, I think, not solid), and I ordered a set of them because... well... you never when you're going to need some end links, or come across a used WG BOR bracelet. I'm a fan of spare parts.

Now, they have a BOR bracelet in stock, with straight end links, or solid curved end links for their C-01 chrono. It's listed as the "new Beads of Rice", and they don't list spare end links any more.

So, the question is - will the new BOR work with the old end links? I'll be OK with the straight links, but would prefer the look of Ragl's watch. I just bought the new BOR, and we'll see if the old end links fit.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

"Doc, where's my NTH Sub? What the hell is going on?"

Ugh, what isn't?

Truth -

The current production, which we started this past June, is more than twice our usual production size, with about triple the usual number of variations. That added production size and complexity has added to the assembly time, something for which I didn't account when I was figuring out our target delivery date.

Usually, I pad my factory's delivery target estimate by 30 days, to allow for delays, and our own QC and shipping. Usually, it's more than enough. In this case, clearly, it wasn't.

There was a huge typhoon which hit southern China, and stopped work for some number of days. I definitely didn't account for that, and it set us back some more.

There have been some other minor problems which have conspired to add to the delay. None of them are serious or insurmountable, but all together, they're messing with my mojo.

It seems we lost at least one person from our assembly team, who has yet to be replaced. So assembly capacity is temporarily lower than usual. Notwithstanding China's enormous population, there's actually a shortage of skilled labor in the industrialized areas, and so filling vacancies is easier said than done.

To make that situation even worse, apparently the fire marshal didn't like the windows looking into the assembly area from the hallway, so the property owner needed to build walls where those windows once were. As you may imagine, that'll slow progress while that job is happening.

This is the assembly facility I visited this past May, as it looks now:

















It gets worse.

When we redesigned the bracelets with 1mm shorter links, we failed to consider how that would shorten the bracelet overall.

With 14 links total (7 per side), it's 14mm (~0.55 inch) shorter. Normally, it wouldn't be a problem. The bracelets are still large enough to fit ~8 inch (~203.2mm) wrists, and we always include two spare links with the NTH Subs, which will offer up another 16mm total (a hair more than 5/8 of an inch, for a total length of just over 8.5").

Except, in this instance, my factory neglected to order the spare links when they ordered the bracelets, and so we needed to order those on an expedited basis.

In the meantime, we've been harvesting spare links from assembled bracelets, which is why we were only able to ship the Nazario Sauro and Nacken Modern Blue - those are what the factory sent me with the spare links we needed in order to ship a complete kit.

We were expecting to receive the rest of the links by last week, but then this happened:









Grrrr...

Ordinarily, I wouldn't divulge all these details. It's not necessary for everyone to know, and candidly, I don't think it increases anyone's confidence in the process and outcome. So, why am I airing this dirty laundry, in this way?

Because the last time we had production delays, it became obvious to me that everyone assumes that the root cause are quality issues, and as you can see, there are no quality issues at work here, just like there weren't quality issues at work the last time we had a delay, and I freaking hate it when people assume that's the problem. Quality is not our problem, trust me.

The quality is fine. So far, we've received 2/3 of the production, with 0% QC failures. The quality is top-notch. I'd be shipping more watches, but for the missing links.

We're just dealing with a combination of unavoidable delays. Some I should have foreseen, yet I failed to foresee them, and that's on me. Others...I mean, c'mon - deadly typhoons, rampaging fire marshals, forgetful purchasing guys, and environment-protecting bureaucrats? Who can foresee all of that, together, conspiring to put us a month behind?

So, as always, I am once again frustrated, embarrassed and sorry about the delays. I went out of my way to delay starting pre-orders as long as advisable, in order to avoid exactly this situation, and it happened anyway.

I'm not looking for sympathy or trying to pass the buck. Ultimately, it's on me to figure out how to run the business without having to make apologies for things, even things outside my control. We're working towards the day when we won't do any pre-orders, a state I'm hoping we'll reach by the end of our current calendar year.

For all those waiting - again, I truly appreciate your continued patience and faith. As of this moment, I'm hoping we can begin shipping on all NTH Subs versions (except for the SeriousWatches-exclusive Holland) by the end of next week.

For anyone who thinks this $hlt is easy, I invite you to try doing what I do for a year, and seeing how well you fare, before you talk $hlt about microbrands, and what you think we do, and how we do it. Trust me when I say if you think what I deal with is limited to Chinese manufacturers and small brands, you have no clue. This is only a fraction of what is going on inside the industry, and by comparison, our business is a well-oiled machine.

I just need to do a better job running it. No one is more disappointed in this situation than I am. I absolutely freaking hate production delays.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Marshmallow fluff and napalm omelettes. That's what we're cooking up here, folks. 

You want to see how they get made? Once in a while, you're going to get some molten-hot fluff on your face.

If that doesn't suit you, then ya might want to stand back from the kitchen...


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Thanks Doc for being so transparent. 

I for one used to believe in the Chinese production stigma of the sweat shops in the dark. People working under harsh conditions with armed guards following their every move. It is actually refreshing to see that this stuff happens at these assembly facilities. I do not mean that in any way of disrespect or to hinder your shipping progress because, well I am one of those waiting. 

Stuff happens and in the meantime I will just stroke my other NTH/Janis a little extra just for luck.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

It’s a good thing you don’t own firearms. You don’t own any do you?! Don’t answer that!!

Everybody just take a big breath here, slowly exhale!! We’ll get through this. Hey I know! Let’s see some pictures of watches! Yeah, that should do it!!

Pictures!!

I actually am not at home so I can’t grab a relevant watch to take a picture of at the moment. Forgive me.

Anyway Doc you’re the most forthcoming person wearing your .... on your sleeve. Appreciate the heads up. And I’m not sweating the wait.

Sent via Morse code, the original tap to talk!!


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I always apply my microbrand pre-order rule: add 6 months to the original estimate. Then, when my watch shows up early, I'm happy.


----------



## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

Thanks for sharing Chris. It's nice to know the details, even when nothing can be done to speed up the process. We'll get our watches when we get our watches. I, for one, am not too overly concerned. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I know 95% of my customers get it, and are cool with it, and trust me to deliver the goods.

But 5% like to piss and moan when we're a few days behind. The pissing and moaning happens in public, and before long, all micros are getting a bad rap, justified or not.

If it sounds like my pants are in a bit of a twist tonight, I admit it, they are.

It's not just those Whatsapp messages from my factory this morning. It's those, combined with the communication I'm seeing from one of our retail partners, who will remain anonymous.

I can't tell tales out of school, but this retail partner has gotten screwed over by another manufacturer (more than one, actually), a well-known and respected brand name, held in high esteem among WIS for their history of innovation, blah, blah, blah.

Meanwhile, the manufacturer can't deliver on their own commitments. They're late with the product (not a month late, like me, oh no, they're months late, plural), all of the product is messed up (as in, ALL of it), and they can't deliver timely and effective support for it. 

So, who do you think gets the blame? The manufacturer, or the retailer?

The retailer, of course. It doesn't help that the manufacturer throws the retailer under the bus.

God forbid we hold the people who are actually responsible accountable for their actions. Oh, no. They're not to blame, never. They're a well-respected brand name, so it MUST be the retailer, up to some sort of shenanigans. 

No one can believe how badly the manufacturer is effing things up, so they blame the retailer, who I know runs a good shop, and is just trying to do his level best managing the problems the manufacturer caused.

That's why I said - people have no idea what's really going on. A well-known brand screws up, blame the retailer. A small micro screws up, blame all micros, or China, or whatever. Yeah, keep putting your faith in those "heritage" brands, Poindexter. That's their bread-and-butter, the faith of the faithful, which never seems to get rewarded. 

So tired of reading all the half-brained, half-baked, conspiracy-theory BS online. 

When I was in HK last month, I had a chat with the owner of a brand doing a TON of business. He essentially came right out and said that the online watch-geek community is largely responsible when a micro fails, to the extent the micro was jumping through hoops trying to curry favor with the online taste-makers in the crowd, so many of whom are demanding things of the micro which virtually guarantee business failure.

I'm not angry at the WIS crowd, certainly no one here. Just angry at the situation. This industry is overdue for a shake-up. Heads need to roll. Clean house. It chafes me to see how much praise is heaped upon incompetents, and how often real achievement gets belittled. I don't root for any person or business to fail, but don't plan on seeing me shed a tear when the half-wits go tits-up. Plan on seeing me licking my chops to scoop up the opportunities they were too inept to capitalize upon.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I believe I'm using the curved end links WatchGecko used to sell specifically for their BOR bracelet. (Unfortunately they no longer appear to sell them.)
> 
> I defer to your memory as to another potential source or set of end links that work well with the Subs and BOR bracelets.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wouldn't bet the farm on my memory lately. It's usually pretty good, but...I forget where I was going with that.

FWIW, the 20mm bracelets with fitted/curved end-links that Strapcode sells for the SKX013 tend to fit the end-links of the Subs pretty well, albeit slightly recessed below the surface of the lugs, yet with a very similar curve to them. The overall look is very similar to previous generation Rolex Submariners, IMO, which is to say, handsome.

They don't appear to have a 20mm BOR, but...and it pains me to say this...they have...retch...jubilees.

They also have president bracelets, for those of you who think oysters are too pedestrian, BOR's are too flashy, and agree with me that jubilees are for retired mid-level managers from soul-sucking corporations.

https://www.strapcode.com/collections/metal/20mm?sort_by=best-selling

My personal opinion - Strapcode bracelets are the best overall option in aftermarket bracelets. I think our stock bracelets are a little better overall, and I'm not crazy about their polished link sides, but all the feedback I've seen about them, Watch Gecko, el-cheapos from Ali Express, etc, suggests Strapcode is the winner if you want to avoid pissing your money away on some after-market metal. There are cheaper choices, but you quickly realize WHY they're cheaper.


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

docvail said:


> Is there play in the clasp (part two)...


The articulation in those bracelet links is wild. I'm pretty excited for my new sub.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Thanks for the completely transparent update Chris. I'm guessing that most, if not all that read it are repeat customers and have complete faith in your ability to exceed expectations. I am impatient, not because I need another watch, but that I can't wait to see how good this next batch will look. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> It's not just those Whatsapp messages from my factory this morning. It's those, combined with the communication I'm seeing from one of our retail partners, who will remain anonymous.
> 
> I can't tell tales out of school, but this retail partner has gotten screwed over by another manufacturer (more than one, actually), a well-known and respected brand name, held in high esteem among WIS for their history of innovation, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> ...


Maybe reading the tea-leaves a bit (and no confirmation from doc needed, nor acknowledgement), but I'm 95% sure that it's a Page&Cooper vs. Damasko thing.

P&C has a bit of a bad rap on WUS/f2 for being late with shipping damasko watches that they list as 'in stock', or being late in refunding cancelled orders when they fail to dispatch. One very prominent person on f8 is pretty vocal in discouraging people from using P&C. (That same person can very often be seen posting, frankly, advertorial-posts for nearly all german brands, and it's notentirely clear whether that person is on a payroll or what). So it looks pretty stacked against P&C. BUT. Tbh this might as well boil down to Damasko not dispatching the watches they're due to dispatch, while taking the money. (Or sending out broken duds...) And they (damasko) are admittedly notorious for being bad at direct customer support - a lot of people tended to use their authorized dealers as QC/techsupport insulation. And god forbid you enter a bank-transfer-fees conflict with Damasko. If they are as bad at AD-relations as they are with direct customers, then the dealers like P&C really are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Especially since a lot of their earlier marketing on youtube has been very praising of that brand...

Edit:
sidenote on microbrands oft failing due to online customer demands: 
YEP.

For clear evidence, just look at all the headache and bellyaching around forum project watches. Or the fad-driven calls to increase or decrease a watch head's diameter by 1mm so that it "would wear better". Or the design abomination that was the facebook diver-watch group's special "dive medic watch" that Zelos had to make. Or, indeed, if WUS had their way, Christopher Ward would have to keep switching their logo every 6 weeks nonstop.

It's a clear "too many cooks" situation, plus there's actually not that many cooks to support so many brands.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

Interesting regarding Damasko.
I'm only a halfwis so I don't really understand the position Damasko has in the marketplace. Some keep refering to them as a micro brand, while other refer to them as a well established brand with many important innovations along the way.
Anyway, I was keeping a spot open in my watch box for a DA36, but reading this about their CS and general business practice does inspire me to reconsider 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Rhorya said:


> Everybody just take a big breath here, slowly exhale!! We'll get through this. Hey I know! Let's see some pictures of watches! Yeah, that should do it!!
> 
> Pictures!!
> 
> ...


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Dat lume!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

aicolainen said:


> Interesting regarding Damasko.
> I'm only a halfwis so I don't really understand the position Damasko has in the marketplace. Some keep refering to them as a micro brand, while other refer to them as a well established brand with many important innovations along the way.
> Anyway, I was keeping a spot open in my watch box for a DA36, but reading this about their CS and general business practice does inspire me to reconsider
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Keep in mind that in this case, I'm only guessing and might very well be wrong on one or both counts.

However, regardless of P&C or doc or anything, the notoriety of Damasko customer support is well documented across WUS in threads such as https://www.watchuseek.com/f810/damasko-horrible-customer-service-3522170-17.html and https://www.watchuseek.com/f810/damasko-servicing-4652807.html .


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Hey, are those holes in your sleeves thumb holes to keep your hands warm?

No, they are windows so I can tell the time without moving my sleeve.


----------



## johnmichael (Oct 14, 2017)

Love those NTH's, especially the Nachens


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

ck2k01 said:


> The post length got away from me, and I sure as s**t wasn't uploading a single photo at a time again elsewhere


Just copy and paste the "mini"-review here (photos and all - open the post in "edit") into a new thread. Et voila. ;-)


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JakeJD said:


> Just copy and paste the "mini"-review here (photos and all - open the post in "edit") into a new thread. Et voila. ;-)


Heh, touché.

Didn't know whether such a double post would run afoul of a forum rule, which I can't be bothered to review. Just winging it over here!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

johnmichael said:


> Love those NTH's, especially the Nachens


This gives me an idea for a new line of tasty snacks, shaped like watches, in delicious cheese flavors, "Nachens".


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

docvail said:


> This gives me an idea for a new line of tasty snacks, shaped like watches, in delicious cheese flavors, "Nachens".


The lume could be made of jalapeno paste, and I'm jonesing for a guacamole dial.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> The lume could be made of jalapeno paste, and I'm jonesing for a guacamole dial.


We still have to problem solve the current lack of available end links for a beans-of-rice bracelet.

. . .

Nailed it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

^ Bada-bisch!!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Someone please bookmark this page, so that later, when I ask how and when this thread went off the rails, you can post the link back here, to "Beans of Rice" bracelet.

"Sir, do you remember anything before the crash?"

"The last thing I remember, some folks started making food-puns, then there was a loud noise, a bright flash of light, and next thing I know, I'm waking up here in the hospital with Nurse Ratchet jamming a catheter up my urethra."


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Someone please bookmark this page, so that later, when I ask how and when this thread went off the rails, you can post the link back here, to "Beans of Rice" bracelet.
> 
> "Sir, do you remember anything before the crash?"
> 
> "The last thing I remember, some folks started making food-puns, then there was a loud noise, a bright flash of light, and next thing I know, I'm waking up here in the hospital with Nurse Ratchet jamming a catheter up my urethra."


"Beans and rice" and "beads of Spanish rice" bracelet also would have worked. Just sayin'

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

No comment on which manufacturers or retailers are involved in the debacle to which I alluded.

Just for hypothetical exposition, imagine if a company proposed to make a physical product, which has a set of specs, and achieving those specs required getting the machines and materials used in production to a certain temperature, but reaching that temperature with the machines and materials required a certain production volume, yet the manufacturer wasn't able to rationalize that production number, because they saw it as unrealistically high, higher than what they'd actually be able to sell, without lowering the price to "we're losing money" levels.

What would you do, if you were the manufacturer?

Me? I'd wait until I could foresee selling enough to rationalize the needed production volume. Or I'd find another vendor with a better solution. Or I'd partner with a competitor to cooperate on production. Or I'd find a way to finance the production volume needed to meet the specs, and amortize the finance costs over several years, paying the interest with sales revenue. Or I'd find equity investors to provide the liquid capital needed to make all the numbers work out.

What I wouldn't do is make a smaller number of pieces, which fail to meet the advertised specs, and ship the product to customers paying full price, many in advance, then leave my retail partners holding the bag when customers find problems.

I definitely wouldn't advertise specs I knew we couldn't meet. I hate missing a target delivery date. My head would literally - not figuratively - explode if I had to account for why my product didn't meet (if not exceed) advertised specs.

So, you can imagine my sustained bewilderment, knowing what I know, yet watching as people heap praise upon the very clowns turning their own business into a circus, meanwhile not a week goes by when I don't feel the urge to speak up in defense of micros, mine or others, when I see them taking a beating in online discussion.

And people have the chutzpah to describe me as "ranty".


Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

I can't solve many, actually any, of the ills the offend you at the moment. But we're local to each other, and I can offer you a hug. My arms are open and ready Doc.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> What would you do, if you were the manufacturer?


Hmm. Idk. Perhaps adjust the specs to be honest and try to sell based on those. Or, as you said, find other solutions.

I'd sure as hell try to avoid selling something that does not meet the advertised specifications _by design_. Because - unless I'm very wrong - if it can be proven that the product doesn't meet the stated specs, then (I think) it could be grounds for a consumer-protection lawsuit in the EU (and equivalently, a civil lawsuit in the US).

If the hypothetical manufacturer really did make things that don't meet the advertised specs - and if they're pushing the blame on a dealer - then I'd be livid, in the dealer's place. Quite likely, livid enough to burn all bridges and expose the manufacturer publicly (and if necessary, legally under either local or EU system, whichever is possible).

Thing is though.. as long as all this is obfuscated from the end-customers, the industry will keep getting away with stuff like this.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Maaahhnn!! A nice big Man-o-hug.

Is this why it is called the City of Brotherly Love? Because right now....I love you both 



RuggerAl said:


> I can't solve many, actually any, of the ills the offend you at the moment. But we're local to each other, and I can offer you a hug. My arms are open and ready Doc.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

You say that Lume is your drug??...... Let me fix that for you.........









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Mmmm, so you like that yeh? It's the gooood stuff, better have some more.........









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Retrospective:

Sub 1:








Sub2:








Sub 3:








Sub 4:








Sub 5:








All gone now, but... who knows what the future will hold, eh?

P.S. Renegade on top, Santa Fe a *very* close second


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Okay, we need more watch pictures. I got one. So I post it. It shows three watches on bracelets. I must say, that the one on the oris is the most comfortable I have ever worn. The aevig has the most unique styling (it is quite similar to the one that tempest delivers, but way more refined and detailed). And the one on the näcken is plain and simple solid and very comfortable as well.










But I have to say 2 things re the ongoing discussion: 
1) I really like jubilee bracelets. They look wonderful. I'm no manager type, doc  - so I regard what you said as an opinion 

2) the zelos DMT: i own it and i really like it. Yes. It COULD have been slimmer/sleeker, but it's equally good as hefty as it is. The pulsation scale is useless though.

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

On salsa mesh today










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Non sequitur...

Anyone know what font this is?

(Asking for a friend. Seriously.)


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

ck2k01 said:


> On salsa mesh today
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that a hilarious (and tasty) auto-correct fail, or is "salsa mesh" a thing I don't know about that looks an awful lot like shark mesh?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JakeJD said:


> Is that a hilarious (and tasty) auto-correct fail, or is "salsa mesh" a thing I don't know about that looks an awful lot like shark mesh?


It's the closest nachos-related word I could think of for shark 

And if it becomes my contribution to the watch collecting world, then so be it...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

A wall-o-text deserves a man-o-hug!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

RE: X2-Elijah,

I call your close up and raise a closer up.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm. I think I can match that zoom... just about, maybe.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just to make you both feel better:


----------



## TexWatcher (Jul 21, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> Maybe reading the tea-leaves a bit (and no confirmation from doc needed, nor acknowledgement), but I'm 95% sure that it's a Page&Cooper vs. Damasko thing.
> 
> P&C has a bit of a bad rap on WUS/f2 for being late with shipping damasko watches that they list as 'in stock', or being late in refunding cancelled orders when they fail to dispatch.


This very thing happened to an order I placed with P&C. In my case it was a Squale they listed as shipping in 1 to 2 weeks. I placed the order and eventually found out it was delayed far beyond the stated time frame. This continued for over a month (with several calls to the UK to discuss it) and they stated the delay was with the manufacturer.

When I asked for a refund, they talked me into a gently used model instead. After multiple assurances that they would refund me the difference in price between the new and used watches, they never did. This was in 2017.

My advice for anyone wanting to place an order with P&C is to contact them first to verify the item is in stock before payment.


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

TexWatcher said:


> This very thing happened to an order I placed with P&C. In my case it was a Squale they listed as shipping in 1 to 2 weeks. I placed the order and eventually found out it was delayed far beyond the stated time frame. This continued for over a month (with several calls to the UK to discuss it) and they stated the delay was with the manufacturer.
> 
> When I asked for a refund, they talked me into a gently used model instead. After multiple assurances that they would refund me the difference in price between the new and used watches, they never did. This was in 2017.
> 
> My advice for anyone wanting to place an order with P&C is to contact them first to verify the item is in stock before payment.


I got the run around for two months on an Autodromo model that was listed as in stock at P&C. I eventually contacted Autodromo directly and told them what happened and it shipped that week. I would never buy anything from them again.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ending my day on this thread on a high note










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Damn, woman...


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Damn, woman...


Shhhhhaaaawing!


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Damn, woman...


Does the woman know this is posted?


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Damn, woman...


Does the woman know this is posted?

Double post


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> Does the woman know this is posted?


Yes.



GlenRoiland said:


> Does the woman know this is posted?
> 
> Double post


You know, if you're going to take the time to edit a double-post to add the words "double post", you could also just delete the original content of said double post, leaving only "double post".

Just sayin'...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Yes.
> 
> You know, if you're going to take the time to edit a double-post to add the words "double post", you could also just delete the original content of said double post, leaving only "double post".
> 
> Just sayin'...


Or better yet, delete the double post so it doesn't even show.

Which I did with this one.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Damn, woman...
> 
> [/video=youtube;0Cok3GwVrr4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cok3GwVrr4[/video]


I thought this was a clever and fun idea when you first mentioned it, and I still feel that way, even if one I may pass on. Like you mentioned not so long ago, you yourself moved on from the basic mil sub to more novel variants in your personal collection, but I appreciate the NTH to NTH, if you will. What else more nostalgic than the original Submariner and homage modding badge.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Oldie but a goodie tonight









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## fastbucks88 (Sep 24, 2012)

Hey guys, 

So i'm a long time lurker and only recently i just started to post on this forum. I have looked thru alot of post and cant find any information about this, or i suck a searching lol. 

Anyways, with the knowledge of WUS i had purchased a Sub from another brand and i don't know if its frowned upon to state the brand name. But that sub developed a watch case that is said to be in between a rolex 14060 and 114060 case. I have friends and family members who have older 16610 subs (40mm) and since i have a wrist size of 6.5 to 6.75 i find that watch to fit perfectly on my wrist. 

My question is, what case does the new NTH subs closely resemble ? The sub i currently own uses the case i dislike and it is very square like, like the newer/ish 114060. 

Also, Chris your watches are beautiful keep up the good work! I really hope to own one of your subs in the near future. I really hope to purchase an amphion modern with date if possible or the new skipjack with date.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

fastbucks88 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So i'm a long time lurker and only recently i just started to post on this forum. I have looked thru alot of post and cant find any information about this, or i suck a searching lol.
> 
> ...


The NTH subs are a bit thinner and lighter than the vintage rolex, case more like a Tudor 9411 but slightly thinner and no cyclops. Only 50 modern Amphion with date were made.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

fastbucks88 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So i'm a long time lurker and only recently i just started to post on this forum. I have looked thru alot of post and cant find any information about this, or i suck a searching lol.
> 
> ...


The NTH subs are a bit thinner and lighter than the vintage rolex, case more like a Tudor 9411 but slightly thinner and no cyclops. Only 50 modern Amphion with date were made.





Only 50 each of these exact versions were made:


----------



## soufiane (Jul 23, 2012)

docvail said:


> "Doc, where's my NTH Sub? What the hell is going on?"
> 
> Ugh, what isn't?
> 
> ...


I honestly command you for sharing so many details and providing such support! Very few people would do that

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Näcken on dark brown vintage leather today. This watch is a strap monster!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fastbucks88 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So i'm a long time lurker and only recently i just started to post on this forum. I have looked thru alot of post and cant find any information about this, or i suck a searching lol.
> 
> ...


Welcome!

There's no hard and fast rule about mentioning other brands here. I do it frequently enough, so it happens quite a lot, actually. I suppose we all understand it's less cool to go on at length about one.

The case design was primarily inspired by the Rolex 6538 big-crown "Bond" sub from the mid-to-late 1950's, but with some other cues taken from Tudor and elsewhere.

The Skipjacks are in, and they look great. I'll try to post up a pic within the next day or so. I just got them from my watchmaker late yesterday, and I'm preparing to go to NY today, to attend the Diver's Watches Facebook Group get-together. I'll be back sometime tomorrow, so I'll try to get a pic posted up by the weekend.

I don't have any current plans to make more Amphions right away, but...we could see something like them coming within the next 6-9 months, so keep your eyes peeled. I don't want to say too much, but we recently started working on what I think is a cool project, based around the NTH Subs platform.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

.


----------



## fastbucks88 (Sep 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Welcome!
> 
> There's no hard and fast rule about mentioning other brands here. I do it frequently enough, so it happens quite a lot, actually. I suppose we all understand it's less cool to go on at length about one.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for clarifying! Wish i was around the city today to get to meet you and attend the event if it was open to the public lol.

Anyways, guess i have 6-9 months to start saving up my pennies for your next big reveal. Ill be checking this thread for updates, thanks.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I usually follow hurricanes/typhoons pretty closely on the weatherunderground blogs. I was on travel this time and missed the details on the typhoon that hit Tinian, and I'm assuming that's the one referenced above that ended up in China. That storm was no joke...something like 180mph winds at landfall in the Marianas.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> The Skipjacks are in, and they look great. I'll try to post up a pic within the next day or so.


Yes please! Been looking at the renderings every day, trying to decide.

Possible for a local to pick one up directly?


----------



## Fergfour (Jan 4, 2013)

Posted this in other threads but I can't stop taking pics since it arrived last night. The prior owner had it bead blasted. Planning on trying out orange, gray, and cyan perlons, as well as orange or turquoise rubber isofrane type straps. I'm sold on NTH now and I'm already looking into other all the other models. NICE


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Wearing one of mine today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Kind of overcast here today. Can't get much sun on these...


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

While I can't see myself wearing the dolphins, I find the hands/hour markers compliment each other very very nicely. And the faded grey (is it fümay? ) looks mesmerizing in the video.

Do i understand correctly that they share the same case with the other subs? Funny how different they look with these (sorry, i know you call them unisex) more --excuse the lack for a better word-- feminine hands and markers. Trielt very cool and My deepest respect for your ability to change the whole watch by keeping the case (based on the assumption above).

I am so looking forward to seeing your next projects ... and the next...and then the next 

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> While I can't see myself wearing the dolphins, I find the hands/hour markers compliment each other very very nicely. And the faded grey (is it fümay? ) looks mesmerizing in the video.
> 
> Do i understand correctly that they share the same case with the other subs? Funny how different they look with these (sorry, i know you call them unisex) more --excuse the lack for a better word-- feminine hands and markers. Trielt very cool and My deepest respect for your ability to change the whole watch by keeping the case (based on the assumption above).
> 
> ...


They are indeed the same case.


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

Have that Dolphin on order and I can hardly wait till it gets here! Looks wonderful to me Doc!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Soooo what yer saying is that all Subs have a girly case?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Soooo what yer saying is that all Subs have a girly case?


Or even a girly face, there is certainly a non-toolish elegance to the Dolphin that is - for me - just as compelling a wear as the other subs. Talk about spoiled for choice, each of the Sub iterations are so must have..........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Show some sass for Saturday Scorpene........









Ciao,

Alan


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Ragl said:


> Show some sass for Saturday Scorpene........
> 
> View attachment 13610791
> 
> ...


I read that completely wrong at first.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'll try to get some better pics in the sun this weekend.










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Devil Ray says it's time to get out and vote.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'll try to get some better pics in the sun this weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks fantastic!

But I'm still looking forward to the next version with the sunburst dial and spinning NTH logo 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Coriolanus said:


> Devil Ray says it's time to get out and vote.
> 
> View attachment 13611441


Here, election day is election day, not a week or two before.


----------



## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

MikeyT said:


> Here, election day is election day, not a week or two before.


Which probably accounts in part for why Michigan is one of the hardest states to vote in,

https://www.wxyz.com/news/study-michigan-is-one-of-the-hardest-states-to-vote-in


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Woo Skipjack!! Just watched the video on the Nth youtube channel...I love black watches and love arrow hands...right up my alley...here's a screenshot of the video...look forward to this badazz









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Vintage black by the fire.


----------



## Dalen (Dec 12, 2016)

had this one for about a week; my first white dial and first california dial. It's a keeper.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Another day with the Antilles


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheJohnP said:


> Another Bill Jones school of photography alumus.
> 
> View attachment 13612543


FTFY.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> TheJohnP said:
> 
> 
> > Another Bill Jones school of photography alumus.
> ...


Could you fix it further?
I don't quite understand the reference


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheJohnP said:


> Could you fix it further?
> I don't quite understand the reference


Sorry, mate. I was just goofing around.

Bill Jones is a friend of ours, and had been a regular contributor to this and previous threads, but it seems his newborn granddaughter is monopolizing the time he used to spend here, doing the important work of discussing watches.

Bill's photos were legendary for being out of focus. Any time anyone posts an out-of-focus pic, the joke is that they went to the Bill Jones school of photography.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> TheJohnP said:
> 
> 
> > Could you fix it further?
> ...


No offense taken.

Figured it was a good natured take down, as I've seen it referenced before. But not familiar with Bill, so thought I'd ask.

Kind of liked how the logo was more in sharper focus as the rest faded into a softer one.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

While I'm passing on the BSH Sub, I'd buy a Bill Jones-styled Nacken if you made one.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

H'mm, Sunday, let's wear something cool and not too shouty, restrained but retaining max style quotient, gotta be:









Ciao,

Alan


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Mil6161 said:


> Woo Skipjack!! Just watched the video on the Nth youtube channel...I love black watches and love arrow hands...right up my alley...here's a screenshot of the video...look forward to this badazz
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Couple things - the video shows the bezel to have a matte finish, which is awesome. Very "tool-ish". And the minute hand is longer and far more visible than the rendering suggests.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Couple things - the video shows the bezel to have a matte finish, which is awesome. Very "tool-ish". And the minute hand is longer and far more visible than the rendering suggests.


The bezel has a brushed finish. That's the standard finish for our steel bezel inserts. Polishing would screw up the lume, and matte would show scuffs too easily.

I'm 90% sure the minute hand is the same length shown in the renders, as that's a known dimension before we start production, though it may appear differently due to how the lume patch was drawn, or how wide/tapering it is.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Gotcha. I guess the brushing in other colors catches the light more (thinking of the blue specifically).


----------



## Ellipsis... (Jan 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm 90% sure the minute hand is the same length shown in the renders, as that's a known dimension before we start production, though it may appear differently due to how the lume patch was drawn, or how wide/tapering it is.


I'm almost having second thoughts about my Holland preorder as when I decided to commit I definitely thought that the Skipjack had a poorly balanced handset and I was too impatient to wait for a Black 'cuda. I think you're right that the lume length may be the biggest part of how it looks different from the render. Looks sharp though and I love the implementation of the date on that model.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ellipsis... said:


> I'm almost having second thoughts about my Holland preorder as when I decided to commit I definitely thought that the Skipjack had a poorly balanced handset and I was too impatient to wait for a Black 'cuda. I think you're right that the lume length may be the biggest part of how it looks different from the render. Looks sharp though and I love the implementation of the date on that model.


The 2D and 3D renders from Aaron and Rusty are usually fairly good representations of reality, but for a handful of persistent challenges, among them - getting the look of handsets right.

Whereas Aaron can draw a dial with markers of a certain size, and we can transmit the dimensions of those markers to the factory without anything lost in translation, it doesn't work that way with handsets.

We choose handsets from a catalog, based on the lengths and appearance we're looking for. Once we find them, we don't get a precise vector file from the handset supplier, which would allow us to quickly, easily, and perfectly illustrate the hands. Aaron has to essentially trace the hands from a picture on the supplier's website, often a small, low-resolution image.

He does his best. When he's done, he sends the vector file of what he's drawn to Rusty, who then has to render that in 3D. Sometimes, we can't get it exactly the same. Sometimes, even if we got it dead-on, the picture on the supplier's site isn't really right. It could be they changed the hands slightly, or some bonehead just posted a pic of a similar handset, but with slightly different dimensions.

We do our best. I let people cancel pre-orders if they don't like the pics they see. If we've already shipped the watches, and someone doesn't like what they see when they open the box, they can send the watch back for a refund.

All that said - we know what we're doing. Every time we reveal a new design, critics come out of the woodwork, suggesting the hands are too short, or too long, or not wide enough, or the minute markers are too long, or too wide, or make the design look too cluttered, or the design's too busy, blah, blah, blah.

Then the watches come, we post pics, and...crickets. The critics rarely come back and admit they were wrong, but they never come back to argue they were right.

We sell out. Of everything. I think we've demonstrated we have good instincts, and know how to do good designs, don't make too many mistakes, etc.

Don't like something? Don't buy it. But I'm not doing design by committee, ever. The watches always look better in real life. Just be okay with it, and trust us to deliver the goods, because we always do.


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

"We sell out. Of everything."

What is it the kids say... something about dropping the mike...


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

BillHW said:


> "We sell out. Of everything."
> 
> What is it the kids say... something about dropping the mike...


I tend to open cans of worms accidentally... Sorry doc ;-) 
But guess what? Thanks to your vid (and me finally selling the new squall I bought and immediately hated), you just sold another no-date skipjack. Can't wait!

Now... Join me in the squale owner's thread as I trash their ridiculous endlink design and horrible bracelet finishing on the 1545s.:-!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Ellipsis... said:


> I'm almost having second thoughts about my Holland preorder as when I decided to commit I definitely thought that the Skipjack had a poorly balanced handset and I was too impatient to wait for a Black 'cuda. I think you're right that the lume length may be the biggest part of how it looks different from the render. Looks sharp though and I love the implementation of the date on that model.


I love the Skipjack dial(and hands.) I have two similar dials right now -- the Commander 300 and the Phantom Ghost Rider. The Skipjack would be a perfect Tri-fecta, IMO. Too bad I'm bux down.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> I tend to open cans of worms accidentally... Sorry doc ;-)
> But guess what? Thanks to your vid (and me finally selling the new squall I bought and immediately hated), you just sold another no-date skipjack. Can't wait!
> 
> Now... Join me in the squale owner's thread as I trash their ridiculous endlink design and horrible bracelet finishing on the 1545s.:-!


No apologies necessary. I wasn't "ranting", just giving my perspective.

I used to argue more when someone criticized a new design. Now I go out of my way to avoid the discussions, and just let them play out. The product is the ultimate proof of concept.

With each new release, I think more people are tending to trust us and our judgment more. I don't expect to never hear criticisms or suggested changes. I do expect people to understand when I ignore both.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

One thing that would be great, and with your connections in asia maybe you can make it happen, would be an 18mm clasp with tool free adjustment. I've gotten spoiled by the "Glidy-thingy" I got on ebay for my steinhart. But I have a safety pin on my keychain ready for my skipjack :-!

(I mean as a additional item to buy, not to change your whole bracelet again)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> One thing that would be great, and with your connections in asia maybe you can make it happen, would be an 18mm clasp with tool free adjustment. I've gotten spoiled by the "Glidy-thingy" I got on ebay for my steinhart. But I have a safety pin on my keychain ready for my skipjack :-!
> 
> (I mean as a additional item to buy, not to change your whole bracelet again)


Try Strapcode. They specialize in bracelets and clasps.

https://www.strapcode.com/collections/divers-clasp/18mm+20mm?sort_by=best-selling

If a company that specializes in bracelets and clasps and is based in Asia can't find a better, well-made, thin, reasonably-priced expansion clasp, I won't be able to either.

I already tried. I failed. Go figure.

Plus, I'm not in the parts business. I'm in the watch business. I'm not reloading on rubber straps as we sell out of them. I'll likely continue to order extra bracelets with each new watch production, but not a lot of them, and maybe not any, in some cases.

It's just not how my business is built. I think I'll just stick to my knitting.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

The finishing on the one I bought certainly left a lot to be desired. And the openings for the link connections were way out of spec. If you got a sample of one you'd probably be disgusted. I had to spend a few hours making it right.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> The finishing on the one I bought certainly left a lot to be desired. And the openings for the link connections were way out of spec. If you got a sample of one you'd probably be disgusted. I had to spend a few hours making it right.


I had typed, then deleted a longer reply than the one I posted above. I didn't feel like posting another full explanation, which apparently everyone reads as "ranting".

Suffice to say I'm not going to do anything to make anyone's perfect clasp dreams come true. This is a non-starter for my business.

I'd like to exit the discussion of the topic.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

As long as we're doing the whole "pester Docvail with unnecessary & unfeasible requests", imo the Subs case should really really take 1mm off the lug to lug length. Also 0.45mm off of the diameter, otherwise, it's like a full 40mm - and that is, omg, so very unpopular now that all the cool cats are doing 36mm and 34mm cases! 

And yea that 1mm reduction in lug to lug length would completely fix all wearability and appearance issues. 

Besides, it's only a millimeter, surely not that expensive to do.

(this post is sarcasm, heavily based on some other posts seen on f71 recently that, unfortunately, were not jokes).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> As long as we're doing the whole "pester Docvail with unnecessary & unfeasible requests", imo the Subs case should really really take 1mm off the lug to lug length. Also 0.45mm off of the diameter, otherwise, it's like a full 40mm - and that is, omg, so very unpopular now that all the cool cats are doing 36mm and 34mm cases!
> 
> And yea that 1mm reduction in lug to lug length would completely fix all wearability and appearance issues.
> 
> ...


Aaaaannndddd...that's why I'm not reading nor participating in too many threads these days.

I'm not looking for sympathy, only understanding here, when I explain that while I'm more or less happy to entertain discussion on just about any topic, I frequently feel like I'm being put in the position of defending some decision my team has made. The defense/explanations can sometimes be long ("WOT"), because sometimes the answer is complicated, and sometimes it seems like I should try to show that we're being deliberate, considering others' opinions, etc.

There are some guys who apparently have nothing better to do than to stalk me around the internet, looking for those posts, so they can point them out to their buddies, or use them as a reason to dismiss whatever I say. Anyone could tell them, "if you don't like what he's got to say, why not just skip it? Why make an issue of it?", but of course, people who are intrinsically unhappy don't often listen to that sort of reasoning.

I feel bad for anyone who gets that wrapped up in their seething hatred for a stranger on the internet. Life's too short. If I don't like someone, I don't pay any attention to them.

For the time being, I think I have to maintain some level of engagement here and on other social media sites. As long as I'm engaged, I'll just do what feels natural, even if it results in a long post. But when and where I don't think it's necessary, I think I'll try to avoid those situations likely to result in the sort of back-and-forth which always leads me to doing the text-dump of explanations.

Maybe it's better to just say I'm not looking to be in the clasp business (just as an example of the many questions/suggestions I get), and leave it at that, without explaining why.

We're going to do what we want to do. I don't need everyone to like it, and that's never going to be the goal. I need 10%-20% of those who see it to like it enough to buy it. That's all.

The other 80%-90% can go buy something else. Whatever that is, I sincerely hope they love it, and they don't mind leaving me and my team alone to do what we and our customers like.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone here follow Bruce Williams on YT? He's got a nice-sized following, which seems well-earned, judging by the quality of his work.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

His reviews are quality but I have a hard time listening to him after hearing the Air King/PayPal donation story.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yeah, am subscribed to him. Good videos. Disagree with some of his tastes/preferences, but nothing egregious.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Whatever that is, I sincerely hope they love it, and they don't mind leaving me and my team alone to do what we and our customers like.


I stand by my Bill Jones Sub suggestion.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

docvail said:


> Try Strapcode. They specialize in bracelets and clasps.
> 
> https://www.strapcode.com/collections/divers-clasp/18mm+20mm?sort_by=best-selling
> 
> ...


I need to do more knitting. I mostly crochet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MaxIcon said:


> When I saw that great bracelet/watch combo last posted, WatchGecko was out of stock of the BOR bracelet, and had been for some time. They did have the end links (folded, I think, not solid), and I ordered a set of them because... well... you never when you're going to need some end links, or come across a used WG BOR bracelet. I'm a fan of spare parts.
> 
> Now, they have a BOR bracelet in stock, with straight end links, or solid curved end links for their C-01 chrono. It's listed as the "new Beads of Rice", and they don't list spare end links any more.
> 
> So, the question is - will the new BOR work with the old end links? I'll be OK with the straight links, but would prefer the look of Ragl's watch. I just bought the new BOR, and we'll see if the old end links fit.


OK, back in the mists of time (6 days ago), I ordered the new Watchgecko BOR with the solid straight end links. It came in, I pulled out the WG end links I ordered a while back, and lo and behold, they fit. Unfortunately, WG didn't label the two sets of end links they sent me, so I don't know which is which. I haven't fitted them to a watch yet, so hard to say how it will look until I do. Hopefully one set is the same as Ragl's.

I don't know if they'll offer the folded end links again, but if you have some, they'll fit the current BOR. In the meantime, here are some pics.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Giving my Amphion vintage blue some more wrist time.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MaxIcon said:


> OK, back in the mists of time (6 days ago), I ordered the new Watchgecko BOR with the solid straight end links. It came in, I pulled out the WG end links I ordered a while back, and lo and behold, they fit. Unfortunately, WG didn't label the two sets of end links they sent me, so I don't know which is which. I haven't fitted them to a watch yet, so hard to say how it will look until I do. Hopefully one set is the same as Ragl's.
> 
> I don't know if they'll offer the folded end links again, but if you have some, they'll fit the current BOR. In the meantime, here are some pics.


And here are the final results. One set of folded links was too long, and the other fit very snugly - it took a bit of pressure to get the spring bar in. I prefer a tight fit against the case, so this is good for me. The end link is low in the lugs, as Ragl pointed out, and I'm OK with that. There's a bit more gap between the folded end link and the bracelet than there is between the solid end link and the bracelet.

BOR bracelets are one of my favorites, and this is a nice, solid one, so I'll be leaving this one on this watch for now with the folded links.

Here's my pre-Nazario with the solid straight link on one side, and the folded curved link on the other. Please ignore the dust; I always forget to clean things up first...


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> I love the Skipjack dial(and hands.) I have two similar dials right now -- the Commander 300 and the Phantom Ghost Rider. The Skipjack would be a perfect Tri-fecta, IMO. Too bad I'm bux down.


I like that skipjack I took have a c300 and ghostrider very tempting though I have Carolina coming I. The next week or so


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Navario Sauro on Watchgecko BOR with adopted hollow end links from Watchgecko Super Engineer and using the NTH clasp:


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Sick in bed with hot tea and my Näcken..


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep Six today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Keeper of Time (Jan 4, 2015)

Deep Six on Haveston canvas.


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> I'm assuming you mean the non-numerical markers.
> 
> *Fun fact/true story* - back when we came up with the design for the Acionna, I wasn't yet as particular about all the little details in each new model, and would let my factory figure out how best to execute based on the illustrations we'd send them.
> 
> ...


Only just found this post. What's with the name calling? Can't we all be friends?


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

This is the musical equivalent of me talking watches to my significant other


----------



## seedubs1 (Dec 22, 2017)

The Nacken looks like such a perfect watch. Just wish they’d put an ETA in it.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

seedubs1 said:


> The Nacken looks like such a perfect watch. Just wish they'd put an ETA in it.


I, for one, am glad that it has a 9015 in it. With an ETA, it would cost probably $100 more and most likely need more frequent servicing while providing the same beat rate. And if a $600 watch ever needs servicing, I personally would much prefer to pay the $100 or so for a brand new movement as opposed to the $200+ for the servicing. The 9015 makes a lot of sense really.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

seedubs1 said:


> The Nacken looks like such a perfect watch. Just wish they'd put an ETA in it.


Thank the watch gods he didn't,....the 9015 is the perfect movement for its thinness, beat rate, cost, low defect rate, handwindability with no issues and accuracy.


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

seedubs1 said:


> The Nacken looks like such a perfect watch. Just wish they'd put an ETA in it.


Can you help me understand why you'd want me to charge you more for an inferior product?


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

It's fabulous


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Can you help me understand why you'd want me to charge you more for an inferior product?


Chris,

Tapatalk's playing up again. Your ten thousand word response has been truncated to just one paragraph.

Shame, innit.

Ric


----------



## kit7 (Mar 25, 2015)

Ric Capucho said:


> Chris,
> 
> Tapatalk's playing up again. Your ten thousand word response has been truncated to just one paragraph.
> 
> ...


Perhaps it was bedtime?


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

kit7 said:


> Perhaps it was bedtime?


He's been married for twenty years, so definitely not.

Ric


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> He's been married for twenty years, so definitely not.
> 
> Ric


23 years, next week.

Long time, innit?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> 23 years, next week.
> 
> Long time, innit?


Oh no the tapatalk crunch keeps happening


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I am a smitten kitten!









Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

As nice as the new Subs are, I'm glad it's Friday, even with the drawbacks of acrylic crystals


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> As nice as the new Subs are, I'm glad it's Friday, even with the drawbacks of acrylic crystals


Love the ghostrider made me want the skipjack but I already ordered Carolina


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I gotta admit, the gilt dial thing working out well has me feeling like a Ranger with a new roll of duct tape. 

Just looking around for what I can tape next.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I gotta admit, the gilt dial thing working out well has me feeling like a Ranger with a new roll of duct tape.
> 
> Just looking around for what I can tape next.


Is... is that a 70s-era sex reference or something?


----------



## cyberwarhol (Feb 26, 2014)

Here's mine from late last night. Brand new arrival of the limited edition of Carolina.



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Is... is that a 70s-era sex reference or something?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> View attachment 13626779


RIP, Tom Selleck


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Is... is that a 70s-era sex reference or something?


What happens in the barracks, stays in the barracks...

Unless one of your buddies is filming it, then that $hlt gets broadcast on social media...


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> I gotta admit, the gilt dial thing working out well has me feeling like a Ranger with a new roll of duct tape.
> 
> Just looking around for what I can tape next.


They look absolutely incredible, bravo doc. Can't wait to get a hold of mine.

Will your gilt magic process work for other dial & base colors? Say white dial with gilt, or a blue with silver? Really looking forward to see what you do with your duct tape!


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Peteagus said:


> They look absolutely incredible, bravo doc. Can't wait to get a hold of mine.
> 
> Will your gilt magic process work for other dial & base colors? Say white dial with gilt, or a blue with silver? Really looking forward to see what you do with your duct tape!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteagus said:


> They look absolutely incredible, bravo doc. Can't wait to get a hold of mine.
> 
> Will your gilt magic process work for other dial & base colors? Say white dial with gilt, or a blue with silver? Really looking forward to see what you do with your duct tape!


Unfortunately, the electroplating process used to make the negative relief doesn't work for all colors. Only black, "gun" (dark gray), gold and silver work.

I think any of those colors could be the base color or top color, but with just four choices, that only gives rise to a dozen combinations, and off the top of my head, I can only think of a handful that seem worth consideration.

Like, I'm not doing a dial with a gold top layer. Probably not silver, either. I don't see the point in doing black or gun as the bottom layer.

That kills most of the combinations, leaving us with gun/gold, gun/silver, and black/silver, in addition to black/gold, and I'm doubtful the gun/silver would look very good (not enough contrast), which just leaves gun/gold, and black/silver. Of the two, the gun/gold seems more interesting. Black/silver might just look like black/white in most lights.

Until then, I can think of at least three or four different designs we could re-do with the black-gold gilt treatment. And I've already got one in production, with delivery targeted for late this year or early next.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Silvergold. For the NTH BlingItUp edition.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I like the gilt!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm keeping my mom company while my stepfather undergoes surgery today. I just sized her lifetime achievement in the field of raising me award.

She likes it.










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm keeping my mom company while my stepfather undergoes surgery today. I just sized her lifetime achievement in the field of raising me award.
> 
> She likes it.
> 
> ...


You are such a good son!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> You are such a good son!


I have to be. I've got competitors for the inheritance.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Why is her hand wider than yours, doc?


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Why is her hand wider than yours, doc?


Brilliant.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> I'm keeping my mom company while my stepfather undergoes surgery today. I just sized her lifetime achievement in the field of raising me award.
> 
> She likes it.
> 
> ...


Look on the bright side. Your stepdad's gonna have an inside line to an endless supply of legal drugs. I love hospitals.

Ric


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

cyberwarhol said:


> Here's mine from late last night. Brand new arrival of the limited edition of Carolina.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These are the best dial pics so far so I'll be a dolt and quote them :-d
Is the lume blue or green? It looked very much green in another pic I saw.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> These are the best dial pics so far so I'll be a dolt and quote them :-d
> Is the lume blue or green? It looked very much green in another pic I saw.


It's C3.

C3 glows green.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Arrived today: Caroleena #04/40

The arrows on the inside of the bracelet had me thinking “split pins”..... nope, tiny 1.4mm screw pins. Then....

Tried to remove a 1/2 link and reattach a full link next to the clasp, no-go, a full link cannot be next to the clasp on the 6H side. 

So I removed 1 full link and moved the clasp micro adjustment to the 3 hole....perfect fit.


----------



## xAEROPLANEx (Aug 18, 2011)

This watch is insanely beautiful! Well done Doc!!


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

I finally have something to contribute here:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Post your Caroleena serial numbers!


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

Rhorya said:


> Post your Caroleena serial numbers!


I posted a google sheet in the fb group and bsht thread.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cyberwarhol (Feb 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> RIP, Tom Selleck


I think you meant Burt Reynolds right?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

docvail said:


> Can you help me understand why you'd want me to charge you more for an inferior product?


Here we go



Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

cyberwarhol said:


> I think you meant Burt Reynolds right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Uhm...










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## hawkeye86 (Oct 7, 2011)

#30 reporting for duty. Great work Doc. It's gorgeous.

One small thing that has no bearing on my enjoyment of the watch.










Noticed this when I went to micro adjust the clasp. It was like this out of the box. I'm very happy it didn't let go.

Congrats on another great release. It will join the other 3? Subs in the box. I have lost count.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Azores today








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Totally kewl dood.


----------



## biggymo6 (May 13, 2016)

The hunt was long - longer than I ever expected - but oh was it worth it! 









Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It's funny...

There are guys online who dismiss the interest in my brand as being nothing but a bunch of fan-boys, or a cult of personality, suggesting that the watches aren't all that great, not great value, etc. 

Those same guys also tend to portray me as an insufferable a-hole, pointing to my longer posts, or the apparent disdain I show for customers.

When I see that stuff, I think, "Which is it? Do all these guys buy my watches, despite how bad they apparently are, and how bad my service is, because they really like my personality enough to overlook all that, or am I an insufferable a-hole? Those two would seem to contradict each other?"

I mean, if I'm that big an a-hole, the watches must be even more amazing to make up for it. If the watches aren't all that amazing, I guess I'm not really that big an a-hole.

I'm okay with either assessment. I just wish the haters would pick one or the other, and stick with it.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

H'mm, am I missing something here, or are these watches shonky in some way??:

















Nope, can only see out-rage-arse style and quality here. Methinks the snarky ones have a long way to go yet in their cro-magnon development phase.......what a shame......

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

Got my shipping notification today for the Bahia. Very excited to get it on the wrist! I’ll make sure to post some pictures when it comes in.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

smkader said:


> Got my shipping notification today for the Bahia. Very excited to get it on the wrist! I'll make sure to post some pictures when it comes in.


Looking forward to it.

I sized mine the same day I posted those first pics, but didn't quite get it right, and so haven't worn it yet. Just got the sizing the way I wanted it this afternoon.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Got my Navario Sauro and Caroleena......waiting on shipping notices for my Catalina and Bahia.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> It's funny...
> 
> There are guys online who dismiss the interest in my brand as being nothing but a bunch of fan-boys, or a cult of personality, suggesting that the watches aren't all that great, not great value, etc.
> 
> ...


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Refuse to have anything to do with IG since it is owned by fb, so keep us boycotters in mind on this thread when posting news on IG.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Thought I'd get a skipjack yesterday, but it took longer than usual for a truck to go from north jersey to Wilmington and my local PO didn't get it early enough. Hurry up Tuesday!


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Looking forward to the next gilt nth release. Still kicking myself for not buying the Carolina after somehow finding the order link and there was one in stock at the time. Hesitated since I am not frequent on the BSHT tread. Hoping for similar release with regular nth logo and maybe Mercedes hands. In the meantime enjoying my Nacken


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Refuse to have anything to do with IG since it is owned by fb, so keep us boycotters in mind on this thread when posting news on IG.


If we're being consistent, the email newsletter should be the definitive source for brand-related news, and social media should just be a supplemental source.

But the reality is that people unsubscribe from email newsletters, even when they like the brand, just because we all get a lot of email. And even those who remain subscribed may not always see and read the messages we send. So I'm sure we'll also continue to make use of other channels for communication.

The challenge is that if we're no longer forum sponsors, we're limited in what we can post here.

I am sensitive to my customers' preferences regarding the forum vs FB/IG, but at the same time, I have to consider (and I ask my customers to consider) how other brands communicate news to their followers. What are the market-accepted standards? It seems like many brands and their customers have mutually agreed to engage with each other on FB and IG primarily.

Not only that, but consider how each site functions, and the size of each site's user base, when it comes to something like running a giveaway, specifically the goal of having a promotion go viral. I shouldn't need to explain to people how valuable IG and FB are from that perspective.

Whether we like it or not, those social media sites are where many people look for brand engagement, and so there may come a day when customers who don't read the newsletter and aren't on FB/IG will have to get their updates second-hand, from other forum members who do read the emails or do follow us on FB/IG. I may not be able to leverage WUS as much as customers would like.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> Refuse to have anything to do with IG since it is owned by fb, so keep us boycotters in mind on this thread when posting news on IG.


You should open up an IG account and post pics of your million watches over there. You d be very popular.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

yankeexpress said:


> Refuse to have anything to do with IG since it is owned by fb, so keep us boycotters in mind on this thread when posting news on IG.


Do you think Russia and/or China don't already have your SS number along with your credit cards and your whole life?!?


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Macro monday


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Temporarily on one of my other nth bracelets.


----------



## Buellrider (Mar 31, 2014)

A couple I wish I had back.

















And one that is staying for awhile.


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gents, I sincerely appreciate your patience and attention as I address the issues with the new bracelet. I'm dealing with a lot of moving parts here (literally and figuratively).

I made my factory aware of the two big issues with the bracelets - the difficulty removing some screws, and the bigger problem, that the clasp-links can only accommodate the 1/2-links, not the full-size links, which means the bracelet can't be used without leaving the 1/2 links in place, which makes their removability pointless.

The issue with the screws is easy enough to fix. They're sending me more extra-links + screws, and I will replace the links/screws for anyone who inadvertently destroys them, for as long as we've got the links to send people. I will of course not charge anyone for the links or shipping. 

All I ask is people's cooperation - use the right size screwdriver (~1mm-1.2mm seems to be the right size), and if you find one gets stuck as you're un-screwing it, stop, screw it back in, and remove a different one. Use the other links and the micro-adjustments to get the fit you need. I'm sorry for this less-than ideal interim resolution.

The issue with the 1/2 links is not as easy to fix. Our bracelet supplier is owning their mistake, by making us some re-designed clasp-links and 1/2 links, so that we can replace all of those on the existing bracelet. However, they're telling me it'll be at least 3 weeks before we get them, which, knowing how fungible the delivery targets can be, means we might be waiting 4-6 weeks for them. 

So, for now, here's what I'm asking and doing to sort everyone out:

1. If you haven't already tried to remove the 1/2 links, don't. No sense in taking a chance on destroying one of those screws in the attempt. I don't have an unlimited supply of 1/2 links I can send out. 

2. If you've already tried to remove one or both of the 1/2 links, and destroyed one or more screws in the attempt, let us know, by emailing us, or via the contact page on the website, and we'll do our best to replace them as quickly as we can. Please understand that in order to limit the risk of guys requesting links they don't need, and to avoid confusion, we may ask for pics showing the damaged screws and links we need to replace.

3. If you've got damaged screws from the full-size links, let us know, same as above, and we'll replace them.

4. If you've sold or plan to sell one of the new Subs, please make sure the buyer is aware of this situation, and it would be awesome if you gave them your real name and order number, and asked them to contact us with that info, so that when we get the new links in, we can make sure the links get to whoever has the watch at that time.

5. Be patient with us. This is still a small company, and we're doing our best to make things right as quickly as we can. I don't have a good explanation for how this happened, other than to assume it was an oversight on the part of the bracelet vendor. This isn't the sort of thing we'd even think to check in QC. 

Thank you all for your patience and understanding.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Mediocre pics of an awesome piece. Love it doc! Now, which Nth to get next...


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Ha. Thanks doc. I was going to post a comment later about the half links. I had a feeling you didn't intend them yo be that way. Guess the factory took "half" a little too literally.
I didn't have problems with any of my screws because I just poked the ones that didn't come out easily with the straight end of my bergeon tool.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^Nice.

I've been debating whether or not I wanted to add a Skipjack to my own collection. The only piece I pulled out for myself from the latest batch was a Bahia, and as soon as I sized it and wore it once, I was like, "Crap, why did I do this? I like it, but I know I'm not going to wear it enough to justify keeping it." 

I still have way too many watches, even after the big sell-off I just did. I still have 3 of the pieces I want to sell (two Acionnas and a Cerberus), but I added the Scorpène Blue and Näcken Renegade from the last batch. I'm down to 20 pieces, and really, it needs to be closer to 12-13. I'm lucky if I can wear each of them 5-6 times in a year.

I think going forward, I'm not going to pull any new pieces for myself. I'll just wait for blogger samples to come back, and put those in my collection, or wear the "defective" pieces.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

My Skipjack should be here tomorrow...will post pics when I get it...

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That bracelet thing sounds like a real pain in the ass, Doc. I admire your patience and willingness to go the extra mile to fix it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> That bracelet thing sounds like a real pain in the ass, Doc. I admire your patience and willingness to go the extra mile to fix it.


I'd be more than willing to go less than a mile if anyone sees a short-cut.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

This beauty ...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Skipjack....just what I wanted...some quick pics before work...I'll post more later









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

.









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Show me nacken modern blue wrist shots please. I think I need one but I'm afraid I won't like the all white hands in person.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Show me nacken modern blue wrist shots please. I think I need one but I'm afraid I won't like the all white hands in person.


Since the review appeared on The Urban Gentry, that model has become the hot girl at the prom, and we've now produced 200 of them (including both date and no-date). It's almost certainly been the most-photographed Subs model as a result, and I imagine a Google image search will return you more results than you'd ever need to convince you one way or the other.

https://www.google.com/search?q=nac...sdTeAhXjRd8KHQonCmYQ_AUIFCgC&biw=1280&bih=922

Yes, we're making more. I get at least 6 emails a week asking about it.

No, I'm not keeping a list of people who want one, nor am I accepting payment for pre-orders, at least not yet. No, I'm not pinpointing a future date when we'll make them available. I'm trying to get out of the pre-orders and 3-6 months of hyping things before they're made business.

Nor do I want to say how many we plan to make in the next batch, because I don't want to cause people to think we're deliberately under-producing them in order to create hype, nor do I want people thinking, "oh, that's plenty, and I can take my time deliberating."

We're not going out of our way to manipulate the supply-demand curve, but I wouldn't wait too long before getting your money together and pulling the trigger, either.

I am going out of my way to make sure we don't get caught up in OVERproduction, and so we're slowly ramping up the production numbers and pace until such a time I feel confident we've found the supply-demand balance-point. That's the point at which we're not sold out for 6 months at a time, nor are we sitting on too much inventory, which isn't turning over quickly enough.


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Here are some shots of my Näcken. The all white snowflake hands are absolutely beautiful and fit the tool aesthetic very much; still, with it's sleek case it can be very dressy as well. Such a versatile watch.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

.










Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Aaannnd... the first Carolina hits f29, causing momentary excitement for those of us who missed the boat and regret it more with each picture posted.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

The blue bezel on the nacken is like 10 different blues in one. Amazing.
Karmadrome's pics gave me everything I need. Awesome shots


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

A couple quick shots of the Bahia that just arrived. Sadly I don't have a screw driver small enough to change the screws on the bracelet, so I threw it on my Halios rubber strap until a screw driver arrives on Friday. Since having previously owned a NTH I was excited to wear one again, mainly because the size is perfect. I almost forgot how thin it was. I'm really loving it so far, and definitely excited to get it on the bracelet.


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

92gli said:


> The blue bezel on the nacken is like 10 different blues in one. Amazing.
> Karmadrome's pics gave me everything I need. Awesome shots


Thanks 92gli. You won't regret it, the Näcken is an incredible timepiece. The blue of the dial and the bezel changes constantly.

Two more things:

1. I'm looking for suggestions for a good black silicone strap. I've tried one, but it was a bit too thick and thus lifted the watch off of my wrist, if you know what I mean. I wouldn't break in even though it was very supple.

2. Has anyone ever tried fitting a Steinhart 20 mm Jubilee bracelet on an NTH Subs case?


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

mplsabdullah said:


>


I know it's a personal thing, but that is (a) the only full-lume dial I like, because of the blacked-out hands, and (b) the only snow-flake hands I like, because they are blacked-out and in front of that dial.

BTW, I have a SantaFe that I'd swap for one of these....


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

karmadrome said:


> Thanks 92gli. You won't regret it, the Näcken is an incredible timepiece. The blue of the dial and the bezel changes constantly.
> 
> Two more things:
> 
> ...


I really like both Scurfa & Halios's rubber straps. The Halios one you can get on Rakuten apparently, search for "BIWI caoutchouc Rubber Model". Scurfa sells 20mm straps through Toxic Natos. I own both, and both are thin and great. The Halios feels more refined, while the Scurfa feels more sporty. The scurfa has more adjustment with the way the holes are laid out, so you get a tighter fit.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

karmadrome said:


> 2. Has anyone ever tried fitting a Steinhart 20 mm Jubilee bracelet on an NTH Subs case?


I have not tried the Steinhart one but I do have a jubilee on a sub.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Well, don't keep us in suspenders--- which one is it, and did you need to modify the end-links?


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

karmadrome said:


> Thanks 92gli. You won't regret it, the Näcken is an incredible timepiece. The blue of the dial and the bezel changes constantly.
> 
> Two more things:
> 
> 1. I'm looking for suggestions for a good black silicone strap. I've tried one, but it was a bit too thick and thus lifted the watch off of my wrist, if you know what I mean. I wouldn't break in even though it was very supple.


Barton Silicon Elite


----------



## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

karmadrome said:


> Here are some shots of my Näcken. The all white snowflake hands are absolutely beautiful and fit the tool aesthetic very much; still, with it's sleek case it can be very dressy as well. Such a versatile watch.


Wow. I really like the clean bezel on this over the Renegade version. I like the Renegade dial but can't get past the crunched up '10'. It throws the symmetry of the Scorpène off for me too which is the one I'm most wanting. Trivial I know but I'll take any exit ramp I can get at this point.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Skipjack is rad af









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Doc, sorry if I've missed your thoughts on this topic elsewhere, but what do you make of the Prometheus Eagle Ray?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Doc, sorry if I've missed your thoughts on this topic elsewhere, but what do you make of the Prometheus Eagle Ray?


I make it a watch.

I mean...consider the position questions like this put me in.

I sort of know Carlos from Prometheus/Borealis. We're friendly. I don't really want to be asked about any other microbrand models, because, how do I respond? I'm certainly not going to trash a design, even if I hate it. And even if I like it, do I need to go on about it, or run the risk that someone will accuse me of damning a competitor with faint praise?

I will say I'm absolutely certain Carlos and Maria know how to get good quality in production, their watches are invariably good value, and while I may not love every design they do, I definitely love some of them, which I could say about almost any other brand.

I don't know why it would matter what I think of someone else's watch. What matters more is what you think of it.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I make it a watch.
> 
> I mean...consider the position questions like this put me in.
> 
> ...


Yeesh. In the future I'll be more careful about considering the potential third-order geopolitical domino effects within the fragile global microbrand cartel before asking if you have any thoughts on a new model from another watch brand.

As far as what I think of it, I like it enough that I'm considering pre-ordering one. My two points of uncertainty are the internal bezel (which I'm not generally a fan of, but somehow in this case appeals to me a bit) and those big honking crowns.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

You can't go wrong with the Nacken Modern Blue.

And TGV at Urban Gentry did a whole video review of it, which is arguably even better than pictures. I'm sure a Google search will turn it up.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Toonces said:


> You can't go wrong with the Nacken Modern Blue.
> 
> And TGV at Urban Gentry did a whole video review of it, which is arguably even better than pictures. I'm sure a Google search will turn it up.


If only they were in stock!


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Another shot of my beautiful Carolina (31/40, not for sale).









The other haven't unwrapped 17/40 still available ... just saying. ;-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Yeesh. In the future I'll be more careful about considering the potential third-order geopolitical domino effects within the fragile global microbrand cartel before asking if you have any thoughts on a new model from another watch brand.
> 
> As far as what I think of it, I like it enough that I'm considering pre-ordering one. My two points of uncertainty are the internal bezel (which I'm not generally a fan of, but somehow in this case appeals to me a bit) and those big honking crowns.


Please don't take offense if I'm made uncomfortable being asked about a competitor's design.

Before I knew Carlos at all, someone on this forum, maybe Brad Homes, asked for opinions about whether he should get the Prometheus S80 or the then-recently-revealed Halios Tropik.

Because I didn't yet know either Carlos or Jason from Halios, neither of the brands represented people to me. They were just businesses, and even though I was already in the midst of launching my business, I didn't stop to think how my comments might affect their businesses, or might just be read by either of them, and how they'd feel. I don't think I'd enjoy reading a competitor's critique of my work, no matter what was said.

I regret being as free with my opinions as I was at that time, and for some time after. Now, even when I really like a design, I'm often hesitant to compliment it publicly, because I worry that other brand owners will see that, and take offense that I complimented Bob's design, but not Ted's. I'm more cautious about what I say publicly now.

Not long ago, there was a discussion in this very thread, comparing a watch from Monta to one from Orion. I was already friends with Nick from Orion (who read that entire discussion), and I just met Justin from Monta two weeks ago at the Diver's Watches FB Group GTG in NY. He seemed like a solid dude (it didn't hurt that he was complimentary towards me - I'm not immune to flattery). As I was standing there talking to him, I was trying to remember if I said anything critical about his brand in the course of that discussion.

I'm friends with a lot of my peers. I'm not looking to hurt their businesses, or their feelings. Nor am I interested in commenting so much, even if it's all positive, that people start to see me as someone who's always running around commenting on my competitors' designs. It's not my place to do that, and if I did do it, it wouldn't be long before no one put any stock in my opinion anyway.

I don't know what to tell you. If you like the watch, that's more important than what I think about it. I don't want to be asked to comment about other microbrands' designs.


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

Side by side comparison, both are impressive, difficult to choose on looks.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

MikeyT said:


> Well, don't keep us in suspenders--- which one is it, and did you need to modify the end-links?


I bought it off Alixpress from a vendor called Hengrc for about $15. It has solid end links which fit almost perfectly without any modification. I have also bought from Carlywet who have similar Jubilee as well as Oyster and President. I actually have one of the Carlywet oysters on my Amphion as it has a 20-16 taper and a divers extension in the clasp. That also has solid end links and fitted without modification.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> I bought it off Alixpress from a vendor called Hengrc for about $15. It has solid end links which fit almost perfectly without any modification. I have also bought from Carlywet who have similar Jubilee as well as Oyster and President. I actually have one of the Carlywet oysters on my Amphion as it has a 20-16 taper and a divers extension in the clasp. That also has solid end links and fitted without modification.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Could you share the link to the Oyster please? I found quite a few different Carlywet Oyster bracelets, not sure which fits without modifications. Btw, how do you know it would fit the NTH? I'm looking for an endlink piece either folded or solid to put on the rivet bracelet I had


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

karmadrome said:


> Thanks 92gli. You won't regret it, the Näcken is an incredible timepiece. The blue of the dial and the bezel changes constantly.
> 
> Two more things:
> 
> ...


These are awesome. Very soft and flexible. Don't know about the steinhart bracelet. I suspect the end links won't be close enough. 
https://www.bartonwatchbands.com/collections/elite-silicone-quick-release


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Forever8895 said:


> Could you share the link to the Oyster please? I found quite a few different Carlywet Oyster bracelets, not sure which fits without modifications. Btw, how do you know it would fit the NTH? I'm looking for an endlink piece either folded or solid to put on the rivet bracelet I had


I think the end links on these look to be the right shape. Listing doesn't say they taper to 16mm, but I have not seen an 18mm glide clasp so they must. I'm ordering one now, I'll post results when I get it. I like the nth bracelet but I'm spoiled by this clasp (have one on my steinhart).
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...l?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.38.6b0e2505ekxrao


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Forever8895 said:


> Could you share the link to the Oyster please? I found quite a few different Carlywet Oyster bracelets, not sure which fits without modifications. Btw, how do you know it would fit the NTH? I'm looking for an endlink piece either folded or solid to put on the rivet bracelet I had


To be honest I had no idea if it would fit but they are so cheap that I thought why not! I have plenty of 20mm watches so if it did not fit on one it would probably fit another. I actually have one of the Oysters on my Seaforth as well (it's a hell of a lot cheaper than the Ginault everyone is buying!!!!)

I think it was this one I bought. It has a simple single fold over extension .

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32803...e_id=0amp-mcc19UGFcqo1OCWfvxp2aA1542298967257

If you would prefer the full glidelock version then go with this one.

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32830...d=4984amp-mcc19UGFcqo1OCWfvxp2aA1542299098421

Just make sure you select the right colour and size.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Just a quick statement to say that I really like the new white cover on the new NTH subs. I like the picture of the Bahia on the white cover.

This shows that your company is growing in leaps and bounds in terms of professionalism.

I will put my new Bahia through its paces over the weekend but expect that it will be a sterling watch in all respects.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> To be honest I had no idea if it would fit but they are so cheap that I thought why not! I have plenty of 20mm watches so if it did not fit on one it would probably fit another. I actually have one of the Oysters on my Seaforth as well (it's a hell of a lot cheaper than the Ginault everyone is buying!!!!)
> 
> I think it was this one I bought. It has a simple single fold over extension .
> 
> ...


 thanks a lot for your answer!


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Damn, I'm an idiot. I paid $50 just for the glide clasp from a US seller on ebay. I just ordered that bracelet and the whole thing cost half. I'm 99% sure it's the exact same clasp.:roll:
In other news, my skipjack is only 5 seconds slow after about 40 hours. Nice


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

92gli said:


> Damn, I'm an idiot. I paid $50 just for the glide clasp from a US seller on ebay. I just ordered that bracelet and the whole thing cost half. I'm 99% sure it's the exact same clasp.:roll:
> In other news, my skipjack is only 5 seconds slow after about 40 hours. Nice


Carlywet actually sells the clasps on there own as well for about $15.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

..









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> Carlywet actually sells the clasps on there own as well for about $15.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


An update on the clasp from Carlywet, they have a sale on at the mo' and I purchased a couple at the weekend for the bargain price of $11.66 each, ridiculous value and I think that deal is still available.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> Carlywet actually sells the clasps on there own as well for about $15.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What's the clasp look like on the jubilee? The only one I can find doesn't have a clasp like a traditional bracelet. It has a small circle and links extending to the opening. (Also if you have a link for the jubilee as well, it would be great!)


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Damn, alright. In for a Renegade. Early Christmas present?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> Just a quick statement to say that I really like the new white cover on the new NTH subs. I like the picture of the Bahia on the white cover.
> 
> This shows that your company is growing in leaps and bounds in terms of professionalism.
> 
> I will put my new Bahia through its paces over the weekend but expect that it will be a sterling watch in all respects.


Congratulations, you're the first person to mention the new box design.

There's no prize or anything, just the satisfaction of being first.

True-story - I came up with that all on my own. No help from Mssrs Aaron or Rusty. My marketing guy Josh tried to get some graphic-artist/intern-person to do it based on my description of what I wanted, but by her third email asking me for clarification, I hit the tipping point of frustration and said, "eff it, I'll mock it up myself".

I mean, seriously, how hard is it to grasp, "See this pic? Put that on the front of the box ('panel 2'), but wrap it around the edge (onto 'panel 1'), and put this logo on the front, just above it."?

I even printed out the pic, and stapled it to one of the sleeves, took a picture of that, and emailed it to her. She still didn't get it.

OMG, I wish I didn't throw that thing away. You guys would $hlt yourselves laughing at it. It's easily the most pathetic arts-and-crafts project I've ever done in my life, worse than my kindergarten hand-turkey.

Oh, wait, I have the email I sent her, so I have the pics.

Maks sure you guys have a change of shorts available before scrolling down. This is the sort of crazy $hlt I sometimes have to resort to doing just to get a point across. And this person speaks ENGLISH! Imagine what it's like dealing with my guys in Hong Kong.









































After sending her that, and having her tell me it would be a few hundy to mock one up for each of the new models, that's when I took over, and handled the job myself...

This is what I sent my box factory (in China):









I did one of those for each of the new models. That's all they needed. First try - BOOM - nailed it...









Duh.

Why was that so hard?


----------



## Ellipsis... (Jan 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> Why was that so hard?


Think about how dumb the average person is, and then realize that half the population is even dumber than that...

PS New watch day tomorrow assuming UPS gets their .... together!


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

First time I've seen the new package. It does look great.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

docvail said:


> Why was that so hard?


I really don't know sometimes.

I've given up on a few printing places for doing layouts for me at this point, unless it's something extremely simple which they're doing at no cost, and I have time to spare for back and forth email corrections. They never seem to get things lined up right, or centered, or something else (Seriously, are you really trying to align text using spaces?!?)

The local sign shop at least seems to have a competent graphic designer. Don't need signs made too often, though...


----------



## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

(double post)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> First time I've seen the new package. It does look great.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


No lie, I was pretty excited for people to see it.

It's a freaking box.

What's wrong with me?


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Hmm ... my Carolina didn't have the same treatment needed for the white box cover ...

O' well, you win some, you lose some. No worries.

Anyway, here's another shot ...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

...what a sharp watch...









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Hmm ... my Carolina didn't have the same treatment needed for the white box cover ...
> 
> O' well, you win some, you lose some. No worries.
> 
> ...


No hay problema.

All the instructions to create your own graphically enhanced case-cover are comprehensively explained in post #9292 above, it's a must do........

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Congratulations, you're the first person to mention the new box design.
> 
> There's no prize or anything, just the satisfaction of being first.
> 
> ...


Did you ever send her this to show her two things?.....one: what you were talking about. Two: how friggin easy it was.....


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Doc, are you going to provide them retroactively? Early Subs? Phantom Ghost Rider Edition? C300? LOL No, not serious. But it is Phrydae.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Lovely.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ellipsis... said:


> Think about how dumb the average person is, and then realize that half the population is even dumber than that...
> 
> PS New watch day tomorrow assuming UPS gets their .... together!


I recently read that once someone's intelligence gets higher than "slightly above average", their level of happiness starts to drop, and the smarter they are, the less happy they are.

It must be true, because I find myself frequently being made unhappy by people who appear to be happy idiots.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I already tried, but it didn't work. I had to return my scissors I bought for the project as they were the inverted type. Too many chooses out there so screw it. Left handed, right handed, inverted.......

I mean if I really want a pic of Doc I can just copy 1 from above. Then send it to a site like vistaprint and make my a life size poster of Doc to hang in my closet.



Ragl said:


> No hay problema.
> 
> All the instructions to create your own graphically enhanced case-cover are comprehensively explained in post #9292 above, it's a must do........
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Hmm ... my Carolina didn't have the same treatment needed for the white box cover ...
> 
> O' well, you win some, you lose some. No worries.
> 
> Anyway, here's another shot ...


I should clarify that I didn't do the new box covers for ALL the new watches, and we'll still be using some of the old box covers we already had printed.

My box factory had a minimum order quantity on the new sleeves, so the Carolina and some other models didn't make the cut to get the new box treatment, because they were or will be produced in smaller numbers.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I already tried, but it didn't work. I had to return my scissors I bought for the project as they were the inverted type. Too many chooses out there so screw it. Left handed, right handed, inverted.......
> 
> *I mean if I really want a pic of Doc* I can just copy 1 from above. Then send it to a site like vistaprint and make my a life size poster of Doc to hang in my closet.


Hah!

"If".

Don't piss down my leg and tell me it's raining.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

You never know, perhaps NTH could start a sideline selling doc-covered bodypillows.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Why was that so hard?


Creatives... I work on the production end of things in the book publishing industry and dealing with creative-types can be like herding cats whacked out on speed.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> I should clarify that I didn't do the new box covers for ALL the new watches, and we'll still be using some of the old box covers we already had printed.
> 
> My box factory had a minimum order quantity on the new sleeves, so the Carolina and some other models didn't make the cut to get the new box treatment, because they were or will be produced in smaller numbers.


Mhhmmm, yep, I hear that. But you didn't answer my unasked question. Did you do it for the watch I'm most interested in purchasing? Does the Nazario arrive with the new box lay out?

I just "found" (remembered to get reimbursed for an expense) about half the cost of one of these Subs, and this new found money is burning a hole in my pocket. What to do with it? I ain't talkin Wawa.


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

docvail said:


> I should clarify that I didn't do the new box covers for ALL the new watches, and we'll still be using some of the old box covers we already had printed.
> 
> My box factory had a minimum order quantity on the new sleeves, so the Carolina and some other models didn't make the cut to get the new box treatment, because they were or will be produced in smaller numbers.


I want a refund!

Not.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

There's just something about a well-done blue sunburst... this is what one looks like.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> Mhhmmm, yep, I hear that. But you didn't answer my unasked question. Did you do it for the watch I'm most interested in purchasing? Does the Nazario arrive with the new box lay out?
> 
> I just "found" (remembered to get reimbursed for an expense) about half the cost of one of these Subs, and this new found money is burning a hole in my pocket. What to do with it? I ain't talkin Wawa.


No, the Nazario was also under the threshold.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> No, the Nazario was also under the threshold.


Fair, I reckoned as such. Folks have those in hand, someone would've chirped. However, it says nothing about your business acumen, or eye for watches/horology, but I am disappointed in you. The red herring of subs, and Wawa, mentioned so closely together. Of course one wouldn't get a sub at Wawa. But Wawa does sell hoagies.

I'm gonna rethink my purchase decisions. But maybe I'll feel better if you can arts and craft me a new box like the one mocked for the emails.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Cooler than a watch on the edge of the box, my interest would be more piqued if you started including in the box a random wall-of-text rant post from your back catalogue, as a sort-of certificate of authenticity.

Oh, and I'll say it: Sheetz > Wawa

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

I was going to like your post ^. A wall of text inside the box to accompany purchased goods would be an excellent bonus. What is the rant about? Doesn't matter, it'd still be great. 

But then you displayed an egregious error in judgement. That is a bad taek, and many people will be the worse for reading such preposterous drivel. Some things, like what you did, are better left unsaid.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Creatives... I work on the production end of things in the book publishing industry and dealing with creative-types can be like *herding cats whacked out on speed*.


Funny.....that's in my job description almost word for word....


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Update on my NTH journey... 
I managed to sell the rest of my mechanical watches and am down to 1 NTH Sub and one G-Shock (DW-5030). My interest in other watches went down to literally zero. I don't have the desire to add anything or investing time in looking for more watches. I always start comparing them to the Sub which makes other watches look bad compared to it. The proportions, weight and design are simply perfect! No concerns that the BB58 would have been a better watch despite thinking that the 58 is one of the best you can buy in the market. I consider myself lucky to have found "the one"  Are there really no other watches that interest me? Maybe, the King Seiko (Grammar Design) watches from the 70's (especially the one with no date) But seeing Seiko struggle to make watches that are reasonably sized, thick or have no window, I doubt that they are going to release anything that makes sense to buy in the next decades and I don't like the idea of buying a used KS with zero WR and no spare part support.

At one point I am going to get myself an Amphibia to learn how to service my NTH and play a little with modding, but that's about it.

Here the delicious NTH 







and the perfect G


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Hah!
> 
> "If".
> 
> Don't piss down my leg and tell me it's raining.


Hmmm, no Doc, that would be the incontinence kicking in...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Brah, no way Sheetz > Wawa. That's just crazy talk! 

Wawa FTW!


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

docvail said:


> I should clarify that I didn't do the new box covers for ALL the new watches, and we'll still be using some of the old box covers we already had printed.
> 
> My box factory had a minimum order quantity on the new sleeves, so the Carolina and some other models didn't make the cut to get the new box treatment, because they were or will be produced in smaller numbers.


You could have stapled on photos of the Carolina as you did in the prototype, then also the boxes would be collectors items.


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

Sorry, double post


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Today again...prob my favorite nth sub so far...









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Ellipsis... (Jan 5, 2017)

I'm filthy and in the middle of a kitchen renovation so this teaser is going to have to do for now.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> Fair, I reckoned as such. Folks have those in hand, someone would've chirped. However, it says nothing about your business acumen, or eye for watches/horology, but I am disappointed in you. The red herring of subs, and Wawa, mentioned so closely together. Of course one wouldn't get a sub at Wawa. But Wawa does sell hoagies.
> 
> I'm gonna rethink my purchase decisions. But maybe I'll feel better if you can arts and craft me a new box like the one mocked for the emails.


I don't know what's going on in this^ post, but I went ahead and liked it anyway.



ck2k01 said:


> Cooler than a watch on the edge of the box, my interest would be more piqued if you started including in the box a random wall-of-text rant post from your back catalogue, as a sort-of certificate of authenticity.


Okay, now that's funny.



ck2k01 said:


> Oh, and I'll say it: Sheetz > Wawa


You have to leave the thread now.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I guess I just prefer a little bit more country, with more jacked-up trucks and parking lot drug deals, with my hoagies.

I guess we'll all see in 2019, you eastern PA snobs:

https://www.sheetzvswawa.com/


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Man, that Skipjack is a beautiful watch. I'd love to see that in the wild; I have a feeling it would really speak to me.

I don't like it better than my Nacken, but still a fine watch. The Nacken is perfection. I'm pretty sure when I get to heaven and run into *****, he'll be wearing a Nacken modern blue.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

ck2k01 said:


> I guess I just prefer a little bit more country, with more jacked-up trucks and parking lot drug deals, with my hoagies.
> 
> I guess we'll all see in 2019, you eastern PA snobs:
> 
> https://www.sheetzvswawa.com/


LOL. Well heck, I've never even heard of Sheetz. I guess I'm going to have to Google this.

But Wawa still rules.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Toonces said:


> LOL. Well heck, I've never even heard of Sheetz. I guess I'm going to have to Google this.
> 
> But Wawa still rules.


Don't even waste the time Googling: just imagine Wawa but more redneck and better.

Oh, and so I don't get into too much trouble for derailing the thread, an NTH...


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

LOL. I love that on the Nato - great choice!


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Don't even waste the time Googling: just imagine Wawa but more redneck and better.


This debate has been going on for ages between small time touring bands. I can say I'm on the Sheetz side, but I will stop at Wawa any chance I get. Neither are found in Western NY so either is a treat for me.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



smkader said:


> This debate has been going on for ages between small time touring bands. I can say I'm on the Sheetz side, but I will stop at Wawa any chance I get. Neither are found in Western NY so either is a treat for me.
> 
> View attachment 13646609


I'll shut up after this, but I had Wawa on Tuesday and QuickChek yesterday. If I was fortunate enough to have Sheetz in North Jersey, I'd consider it for tonight.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Ellipsis... said:


> Think about how dumb the average person is, and then realize that half the population is even dumber than that...
> 
> PS New watch day tomorrow assuming UPS gets their .... together!


Brutal.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Cooler than a watch on the edge of the box, my interest would be more piqued if you started including in the box a random wall-of-text rant post from your back catalogue, as a sort-of certificate of authenticity.
> 
> Oh, and I'll say it: Sheetz > Wawa
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ellipsis... (Jan 5, 2017)

Just some quick snaps with my phone for you guys:


----------



## Ellipsis... (Jan 5, 2017)

The blue is considerably more muted than I expected, certainly while not in direct light. I can't wait to see what it turns into in the sun tomorrow and maybe then I'll muck about with the bracelet. Bonus pic because I'm an absolute manchild:


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Recently went down to Doylestown in Eastern PA to visit relatives and my first grand-nephew.

Found out that "Wa-Wa" stores are a "thing" in Eastern PA.

Everyone was slippin' and slidin' down there yesterday in the snow storm.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Seikogi said:


> Update on my NTH journey...
> I managed to sell the rest of my mechanical watches and am down to 1 NTH Sub and one G-Shock (DW-5030). My interest in other watches went down to literally zero. I don't have the desire to add anything or investing time in looking for more watches. I always start comparing them to the Sub which makes other watches look bad compared to it. The proportions, weight and design are simply perfect! No concerns that the BB58 would have been a better watch despite thinking that the 58 is one of the best you can buy in the market. I consider myself lucky to have found "the one"  Are there really no other watches that interest me? Maybe, the King Seiko (Grammar Design) watches from the 70's (especially the one with no date) But seeing Seiko struggle to make watches that are reasonably sized, thick or have no window, I doubt that they are going to release anything that makes sense to buy in the next decades and I don't like the idea of buying a used KS with zero WR and no spare part support.
> 
> At one point I am going to get myself an Amphibia to learn how to service my NTH and play a little with modding, but that's about it.
> ...


Agree 100% that Subs and G-Shocks are where-it's-at, but I went the opposite direction instead of selling, I bought in big time with both, wanting to have ALL the nice watch models I like. So now I have eleven different Subs, so many I have not figured out how to photograph all of them together yet.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



yankeexpress said:


> Recently went down to Doylestown in Eastern PA to visit relatives and my first grand-nephew.
> 
> Found out that "Wa-Wa" stores are a "thing" in Eastern PA.
> 
> ...


I think I've seen that Santa Fe before...

Still lookin' good 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> Agree 100% that Subs and G-Shocks are where-it's-at, but I went the opposite direction instead of selling, I bought in big time with both, wanting to have ALL the nice watch models I like. So now I have eleven different Subs, *so many I have not figured out how to photograph all of them together yet*.


S'eazy.......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I already tried, but it didn't work. I had to return my scissors I bought for the project as they were the inverted type. Too many chooses out there so screw it. Left handed, right handed, inverted.......
> 
> I mean if I really want a pic of Doc I can just copy 1 from above. Then send it to a site like vistaprint and make my a life size poster of Doc to hang in my closet.


Don't lie Shane. Not for the closet, for the ceiling.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Jtragic said:


> Don't lie Shane. Not for the closet, for the ceiling.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Enough already, gotta go get a total mind-wipe now to erase that imagery........


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Ragl said:


> Enough already, gotta go get a total mind-wipe now to erase that imagery........


Bleach for your eyeballs not enough?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

MikeyT said:


> Bleach for your eyeballs not enough?


Have had to use it so many times with some of the totally hideous watches shown on F2, my eye-balls have gone all immune.......









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

HAHAH it's funny because I did originally type ceiling. I decided to delete that because I felt it was creepy. The closet is a much nicer place to keep a Doc in leather pic.

I also didn't want the Wifey to gain a weird obsession of Doc because I want him all to myself.



Jtragic said:


> Don't lie Shane. Not for the closet, for the ceiling.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

You could get a print of doc done on the inside of your jacket, so that everytime you wear the jacket, it's like doc's giving you a hug.

How's that for creepy


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

The last fives pages of this thread are a good example of why I fell compelled to check in here everyday. Even if I never buy another watch...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

To encapsulate the last five pages, some overzealous fans are going to petition the nearest Wawa to have a sheet of Doc's face laminated to the ceiling of the store? Is that where we're going?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Tanjecterly said:


> To encapsulate the last five pages, some overzealous fans are going to petition the nearest Wawa to have a sheet of Doc's face laminated to the ceiling of the store? Is that where we're going?


Technically, if doc's laminated on the ceiling, then that makes us _under_zealous fans, not _over_zealous


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

OHHH NICE!!!

I am about to leave for a tat. I could get a Doc stamp HAHAH that is funny just typing that.



X2-Elijah said:


> You could get a print of doc done on the inside of your jacket, so that everytime you wear the jacket, it's like doc's giving you a hug.
> 
> How's that for creepy


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> You could get a print of doc done on the inside of your jacket, so that everytime you wear the jacket, it's like doc's giving you a hug.
> 
> How's that for creepy


Thank god no ones home so I don't have to explain why I just burst out laughing.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Technically, if doc's laminated on the ceiling, then that makes us _under_zealous fans, not _over_zealous


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Honestly, the NTH thread feels like a Discord server to me hahah

We have jokes, memes, references, stories,.. in addition to watch talk ^^


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Ojibway Bob said:


> OHHH NICE!!!
> 
> I am about to leave for a tat. I could get a Doc stamp HAHAH that is funny just typing that.


Doc stamp = tramp stamp? Seems legit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

Got the bracelet sized up. Liking this watch more and more each day.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

^^ Delighted to see a watch related post....^^

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Day 2 with this lad.










WatchGecko ZULUDIVER 335 leather nato. Great affordable strap if you like thin and light, and thus extremely comfortable, highly distressed leather. IMO it wears best using the down-under nato method, as the high flexibility of the material means the keeper floats too much for my liking when worn the classic way.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

This one reminds me that the first time I went scuba diving there was snow on the beach. This might be my perfect winter watch. And I love the hands on this Doc. Thanks!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Old school Nth Sub after a minute outside.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

BillHW said:


> This one reminds me that the first time I went scuba diving there was snow on the beach. This might be my perfect winter watch. And I love the hands on this Doc. Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 13648869


Big congrats there Bill, that really is something special. This is the first in-the-wild photo of the Dolphin that I've seen. So much to like here, in particular those shapely hands, the contrasting outline certainly defines & accentuates their elegant shape which is echoed on the quarter-hour markers. throw in that wickedly kooool colourway and you have one chilling watch, a watch for Winter indeed.

Edit: Oh, and the nato is a terrific colour choice too.

What with the Sauro and now this - please stop Doc, I can't take anymore of this unrequited desire.....

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Came in yesterday, it's nice to be an hour away from the warehouse. Checking it out now but seems like a winner.

I probably missed earlier, but what's the process for the brushed dial? Just curious since I haven't seen too many like this.
It's so fun to look at.

Too bad I think I have to wait until Christmas to break this one out.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

basso4735 said:


> Came in yesterday, it's nice to be an hour away from the warehouse. Checking it out now but seems like a winner.
> 
> I probably missed earlier, but what's the process for the brushed dial? Just curious since I haven't seen too many like this.
> It's so fun to look at.
> ...


1. The dial plate is brushed.

2. The color gets applied. In this case, the color fade is done with an air-brush.

3/4. Dial text and minute track get screen-printed on. The dial gets clear-coated. (<= Not sure about the order here).

5. Markers get applied.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> 1. The dial plate is brushed.
> 
> 2. The color gets applied. In this case, the color fade is done with an air-brush.
> 
> ...


Thanks Doc!


----------



## Ellipsis... (Jan 5, 2017)

Ellipsis... said:


> The blue is considerably more muted than I expected, certainly while not in direct light. I can't wait to see what it turns into in the sun tomorrow and maybe then I'll muck about with the bracelet.


So I finally got the bracelet somewhat fitted. I guess I'll wait on the revised half-links because I'm sorta right in between links size-wise but overall I'm happy with it. That's a good thing too because I don't have a single strap or band that I like with the watch. I have pored over forums and image search trying to get an idea of what people with similar looking (platinum day-date, platinum daytona) watches have used but it turns out they're pretty much all using the Rolex bracelet. I mean I don't blame them but it does mean that I have no frame of reference for what else to put it on. I historically switch up my watch straps after even just a few times on the wrist but I fear this one might be stuck on the bracelet for good. We'll have to see if that dulls my enthusiasm for it over time.

As I suspected, the sun really brings out the bright sky blue tones but it's quite difficult to photograph (at least with only a cell phone). In indirect light outside it looks very silvery to my eyes, it's quite easy to lose the blue until the light hits it just right. Now is that bad? Not necessarily. It's just not what I was expecting from the renders.











docvail said:


> View attachment 13643447
> 
> 
> Duh.
> ...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ellipsis... said:


> So I finally got the bracelet somewhat fitted. I guess I'll wait on the revised half-links because I'm sorta right in between links size-wise but overall I'm happy with it. That's a good thing too because I don't have a single strap or band that I like with the watch. I have pored over forums and image search trying to get an idea of what people with similar looking (platinum day-date, platinum daytona) watches have used but it turns out they're pretty much all using the Rolex bracelet. I mean I don't blame them but it does mean that I have no frame of reference for what else to put it on. I historically switch up my watch straps after even just a few times on the wrist but I fear this one might be stuck on the bracelet for good. We'll have to see if that dulls my enthusiasm for it over time.
> 
> As I suspected, the sun really brings out the bright sky blue tones but it's quite difficult to photograph (at least with only a cell phone). In indirect light outside it looks very silvery to my eyes, it's quite easy to lose the blue until the light hits it just right. Now is that bad? Not necessarily. It's just not what I was expecting from the renders.
> 
> ...


Interesting. The colors indeed look a bit more subtle in the flesh as photographed. I agree: not necessarily a bad thing-obvious pros and cons both ways. Looks great regardless. My second favorite from this run.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ellipsis... said:


> So I finally got the bracelet somewhat fitted. I guess I'll wait on the revised half-links because I'm sorta right in between links size-wise but overall I'm happy with it. That's a good thing too because I don't have a single strap or band that I like with the watch. I have pored over forums and image search trying to get an idea of what people with similar looking (platinum day-date, platinum daytona) watches have used but it turns out they're pretty much all using the Rolex bracelet. I mean I don't blame them but it does mean that I have no frame of reference for what else to put it on. I historically switch up my watch straps after even just a few times on the wrist but I fear this one might be stuck on the bracelet for good. We'll have to see if that dulls my enthusiasm for it over time.
> 
> As I suspected, the sun really brings out the bright sky blue tones but it's quite difficult to photograph (at least with only a cell phone). In indirect light outside it looks very silvery to my eyes, it's quite easy to lose the blue until the light hits it just right. Now is that bad? Not necessarily. It's just not what I was expecting from the renders.
> 
> ...


https://www.cincystrapco.com/collec...ducts/20mm-premium-carolina-nylon-watch-strap


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Ellipsis... said:


> As I suspected, the sun really brings out the bright sky blue tones but it's quite difficult to photograph (at least with only a cell phone). In indirect light outside it looks very silvery to my eyes, it's quite easy to lose the blue until the light hits it just right. Now is that bad? Not necessarily. It's just not what I was expecting from the renders.
> 
> View attachment 13651009
> 
> ...


How about this sky blue leather strap?
Just a little over $10 on WatchGecko's Black Friday sale.

https://www.watchgecko.com/miami-pastel-grain-by-geckota.php


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Ellipsis... said:


> As I suspected, the sun really brings out the bright sky blue tones but it's quite difficult to photograph (at least with only a cell phone). In indirect light outside it looks very silvery to my eyes, it's quite easy to lose the blue until the light hits it just right. Now is that bad? Not necessarily. It's just not what I was expecting from the renders.
> 
> View attachment 13651009
> 
> ...


Don't know this website, but this was the other color style I was thinking about. Dark brown leather with blue stitching.

https://www.watch-band-center.com/s...rap&proid=31247&hkat=1821&skat=718&cwaehr=USD


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

TheJohnP said:


> Don't know this website, but this was the other color style I was thinking about. Dark brown leather with blue stitching.
> 
> https://www.watch-band-center.com/s...rap&proid=31247&hkat=1821&skat=718&cwaehr=USD
> 
> View attachment 13651685


I thinking that one would look really really good...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

watch band center is a reliable place to buy straps from, btw. I've bought from them, on occasion, since about 2014/5. Good place to buy from, especially for european folks.

They stock pretty much a lot of the same stuff that companies like watchgecko etc. buy and rebrand in the same pricerange. They don't tend to have any high-end, ultra-level straps, but for the usual meat-and-potatoes you see on various e-stores, odds are good that it's all the same stuff before the stamping.


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Still looking for a christmas present for your wife? Why not a Rolex? 

http://rolextins.com/


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> watch band center is a reliable place to buy straps from, btw. I've bought from them, on occasion, since about 2014/5. Good place to buy from, especially for european folks.
> 
> They stock pretty much a lot of the same stuff that companies like watchgecko etc. buy and rebrand in the same pricerange. They don't tend to have any high-end, ultra-level straps, but for the usual meat-and-potatoes you see on various e-stores, odds are good that it's all the same stuff before the stamping.


Great.

Now I'm hungry for meat and potatoes...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Really nicely-done video of the Holland.


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

I don't think it's stopped raining/snowing in Buffalo for the past month, and that isn't an over exaggeration. It's hard to get a shot that isn't directly next to a window when the only light you have is overcast.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

smkader said:


> I don't think it's stopped raining/snowing in Buffalo for the past month, and that isn't an over exaggeration. It's hard to get a shot that isn't directly next to a window when the only light you have is overcast.


Great watch, and I miss snow...


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

SteamJ said:


> Great watch, and I miss snow...


Like my Bahia as well and it is snowing to beat the band right now in my remote corner of New England. Another 3-6 predicted by tonight on top of the 4 inches from last week still on the ground.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

yankeexpress said:


> Like my Bahia as well and it is snowing to beat the band right now in my remote corner of New England. Another 3-6 predicted by tonight on top of the 4 inches from last week still on the ground.


Couple quick and dirty snapshots before I walk the dog. She Loves to roll in the snow, a snow bath.





Bahia on my left wrist, Caroleena on my right





Shots out my mudroom entrance from the deck looking east to the little mountain that doesn't have a name. Sheep pasture on top of it beyond the trees.

Love how snowflakes change character. Started as big fat flakes and changed to these tiny ones.

So quiet here. Can hear the snowplow out on the main road from a mile away.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> She Loves to roll in the snow, a snow bath.


Some days I wish I was a dog. She's gonna roll in the snow, and I'm sitting here dreading the thought of reading my email.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Some days I wish I was a dog. She's gonna roll in the snow, and I'm sitting here dreading the thought of reading my email.


Don't worry Doc, the only email I sent you was to say that when I took my Näcken out of the box the crystal immediately exploded and all of my bracelet screws were already stripped.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

basso4735 said:


> Don't worry Doc, the only email I sent you was to say that when I took my Näcken out of the box the crystal immediately exploded and all of my bracelet screws were already stripped.


See...I know you're joking, but...except for the crystal, I got an email that sounded a lot like that, just last night.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I am so glad I live in Toronto, Canada. We hardly ever get snow up here which makes me very happy. It is a bit cold but still got green grass.



smkader said:


> I don't think it's stopped raining/snowing in Buffalo for the past month, and that isn't an over exaggeration. It's hard to get a shot that isn't directly next to a window when the only light you have is overcast.





yankeexpress said:


> Like my Bahia as well and it is snowing to beat the band right now in my remote corner of New England. Another 3-6 predicted by tonight on top of the 4 inches from last week still on the ground.


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I am so glad I live in Toronto, Canada. We hardly ever get snow up here which makes me very happy. It is a bit cold but still got green grass.


The grass is back to green this week, but it's been raining nonstop. I know it's only 2 hours away, but the lake effect snow is a big part of the precipitation difference between Buffalo & Toronto.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Ya we have that rain heading our way for this weekend.

I also feel I have to apologize (not because I am Canadian LOL) I have been a bit cranky lately and even if it did not appear to be an ass of an answer. I did in fact want it to be because well, I feel like a bag o poop. So I am sorry lol.

What I really want is a great big man hug.



smkader said:


> The grass is back to green this week, but it's been raining nonstop. I know it's only 2 hours away, but the lake effect snow is a big part of the precipitation difference between Buffalo & Toronto.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Ya we have that rain heading our way for this weekend.

I also feel I have to apologize (not because I am Canadian LOL) I have been a bit cranky lately and even if it did not appear to be an ass of an answer. I did in fact want it to be because well, I feel like a bag o poop. So I am sorry lol.

What I really want is a great big man hug.



smkader said:


> The grass is back to green this week, but it's been raining nonstop. I know it's only 2 hours away, but the lake effect snow is a big part of the precipitation difference between Buffalo & Toronto.


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

So, we're talking about the weather now?

This thread keeps evolving in the strangest directions.


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

Gave the Santa Cruz a Snow Miser look even though it's still just raining in this corner of New England.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

What has two thumbs and good news to report?

=>THIS GUY<=

Everyone who's been waiting on spare links for the NTH Subs, I think we now have what we need. If you emailed us, you'll likely be hearing from Julie within the next few days to a week, looking to confirm our understanding about which links you need, and that your shipping address hasn't changed.

If you needed links, but you did me a solid by not emailing us, now is the time to email us. Plan on being asked for pics of what you need if you weren't already prompted.

PS/EDIT - to clarify, we're still waiting on the re-made clasp-links and half-links. What we have is newly-made and screws-checked spare links, plus I'm having my watchmaker cannibalize the existing bracelets we just replaced for any 1/2-links needed by anyone who mangled theirs before we got to them.

We're still expecting the re-made links sometime in December.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> What has two thumbs and good news to report?
> 
> =>THIS GUY<=
> 
> ...


From the BSHT:



LifeTrekker said:


> So Chris, are you sending out replacement half links to all who purchased new watches, or only to those who email asking for them if they have problems?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk





docvail said:


> Ugh. I knew it wouldn't be that easy...
> 
> If you bought an NTH Sub from me directly, I'll send you the re-made 1/2 links and clasp-links when we get them in December, whether you asked for them or not. Even if you haven't had a problem, I'll just send them to you, because that's how I roll.
> 
> ...


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

karmadrome said:


> So, we're talking about the weather now?
> 
> This thread keeps evolving in the strangest directions.


Stick around, buddy. You ain't seen nuthin yet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Elbakalao said:


> B-b-b-b-baby, you ain't seen n-n-n-nuthin yet.


FTFY.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

This sort of *excellent* customer service is worth the occasional wall o'text.


----------



## Ellipsis... (Jan 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> https://www.cincystrapco.com/collec...ducts/20mm-premium-carolina-nylon-watch-strap





TheJohnP said:


> Don't know this website, but this was the other color style I was thinking about. Dark brown leather with blue stitching.
> 
> https://www.watch-band-center.com/s...rap&proid=31247&hkat=1821&skat=718&cwaehr=USD





X2-Elijah said:


> watch band center is a reliable place to buy straps from, btw. I've bought from them, on occasion, since about 2014/5. Good place to buy from, especially for european folks.
> 
> They stock pretty much a lot of the same stuff that companies like watchgecko etc. buy and rebrand in the same pricerange. They don't tend to have any high-end, ultra-level straps, but for the usual meat-and-potatoes you see on various e-stores, odds are good that it's all the same stuff before the stamping.


Yeah, looks good. I might pick up both of those, thanks amigos. I have a darker khaki nubuck coming from Molequin that I hope looks ok on it as well. I dunno, the bezel, while gorgeous doesn't play well with a lot of browns IMO.

This year was my first dip into the micro market and I have to say, it's been a pretty good year. Maybe I give in and pick up a Farer Landsell for Christmas or something and really make it a micro year to remember. These two shown below are pretty much perfect complements to each other stylistically though. It's great how differently they come across and wear for both being 40~mm 48~mm l2l 11.5/12mm thin watches.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

....









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Just an update. I received my Renegade yesterday and managed to remove 4 full links without any issues. I am now considering myself a master watchmaker and thumb my nose to all of you amateurs out there stripping screws.
That, or I got lucky. Nah, it's got to be the former.
Now it's back in the box for the long wait until May 25th for me to see it again. It's killing me that I have my 1st NTH sub and can't wear it. Great work on this one Chris, that dial really is something else. I am glad I bought into the hype, the whole watch really is fantastic.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> Just an update. I received my Renegade yesterday and managed to remove 4 full links without any issues. I am now considering myself a master watchmaker and thumb my nose to all of you amateurs out there stripping screws.
> That, or I got lucky. Nah, it's got to be the former.
> Now it's back in the box for the long wait until May 25th for me to see it again. It's killing me that I have my 1st NTH sub and can't wear it. Great work on this one Chris, that dial really is something else. I am glad I bought into the hype, the whole watch really is fantastic.
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


Pics or it didn't happen.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Sorry for the bad lighting. I am a man, and as such live in darkness.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> Sorry for the bad lighting. I am a man, and as such live in darkness.


Just sayin'...we're doing a giveaway of a watch on Instagram. The possibility of winning a watch seems like a reasonable excuse to wear the watch early.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

The first watch bracelet I ever sized, ever, was an NTH.

This is with screw links, after I hammered the .... out of them when I couldn't understand why there were none of those little arrows on the links like in the YouTube videos.

If you can't do it, well, I guess I'm a better watchmaker than YOU at least. 

(but seriously, you must really suck LOL)


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

So I took the Nacken out surfing at Tijuana Slough, just paces from the US/Mexico border. Pretty small, but damn the conditions couldn't have been better, like 2ft but super, ultra glassy with dolphins and whatnot jumping around, 70 degrees and not a cloud in the sky. I got a few nice ones, no barrels, but damn just sliding along felt good. Nacken kept me totally on track and time to pick up friends at the airport at 3...sweet.

If I'd know we were going to be chatting weather I would have taken some pics. Next time, mis amigos.

A long, long a way from this (winter, Rhode Island last year):


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ellipsis... said:


> Yeah, looks good. I might pick up both of those, thanks amigos. I have a darker khaki nubuck coming from Molequin that I hope looks ok on it as well. I dunno, the bezel, while gorgeous doesn't play well with a lot of browns IMO.
> 
> This year was my first dip into the micro market and I have to say, it's been a pretty good year. Maybe I give in and pick up a Farer Landsell for Christmas or something and really make it a micro year to remember. These two shown below are pretty much perfect complements to each other stylistically though. It's great how differently they come across and wear for both being 40~mm 48~mm l2l 11.5/12mm thin watches.
> 
> View attachment 13657339


You and me both, bro.



Mil6161 said:


> ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You bros like to party?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That Devil Ray with the orange chapter ring is friggin' sweet.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Toonces said:


> That Devil Ray with the orange chapter ring is friggin' sweet.


It single handedly dragged me out of the mostly < $500 range to hang with the cool kids in the $600-1000 range. Perfect solution to the "WTF do I wear this all-orange dial with."

Doc and John are a good team, or however the hell John keeps getting some awesome limited designs.

Oh, man jewelry...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> You and me both, bro.
> 
> You bros like to party?
> 
> ...


True Story -

When we went to Hong Kong in 2016, I had dinner with (pictured left to right, starting from the fat white guy in back) Jason from Halios, Chip from Aevig, our friend Clara (WUS user claradead), everyone's favorite Hong Kong Ed, and a customer of Jason's, pictured next to me, far right in the pic below, taken outside the restaurant:









Before I launched my business, and long before I knew Jason at all, Halios was one of the brands I looked at as being...I dunno, sort of a "role model", I guess, as a brand people seemed to really like and follow.

Jason is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. But even though we're friends, and I root for my friends' success, I still have a competitive streak, and there's a little sense of professional rivalry there.

I don't think Jason feels it. It's just me. But when I heard he invited a customer to dinner, I couldn't help thinking, "This is awesome. I'm gonna get the chance to spend some time getting inside this guy's head, to figure out what the Halios 'secret sauce' is, and why Halios inspires such a rabid following."

This guy was the farthest thing from "rabid". He was just another typical nice-guy watch-geek. Nothing remotely unusual about him at all. So then I was like, "Alright, let's make this guy a customer, but you gotta play it cool, can't come across as 'needy', or too 'salesy'."

Dinner was going great overall (Jason was busy stuffing his face with black-bean clams. I swear, he looked like he thought there was a prize for most clams eaten), right up until a screw backed out of my bracelet, and my watch fell onto my plate - CLANK!

That's effectively the equivalent of giving your best boardroom pitch, then realizing you spent the last 20 minutes talking with your fly open.

And remembering you were going commando.

Nothing you can do but turn around, zip it up, shrug it off, and keep on pitching.

We had a good laugh. He did end up buying not one, but two NTH Subs. Solid dude.

Anyway, if you have to spend money on a watch from some other brand, it sucks less for me to see the money spent with a friend.

Not even kidding. See that plate of empty clam shells?

A good 80% of those went inside Jason. That man loves his black-bean clams.









Here he is trying to get rid of the evidence.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*










Textured dials rock



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Pre-Turkey day sunshine.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FOLKS - your attention please. I need to clarify the earlier message about the screws/links.

Do NOT touch the screw in the 1/2 link. If you need to remove the full-size links, start from the top, near the case, not the bottom, near the clasp.

Apparently it's the screw connecting the 1/2 link to the full-size link next to it causing the trouble. The half-links need to be left in place to fit the clasp-links, and the screw in the half-link should be left alone.

Sorry for any confusion about the issue.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Diggity-double post-ah-lah-rooney!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I wonder. Is there anything that's at once superior to both screws and split-push-pins for connecting bracelet links? Because it seems like people have a problem with splitpins, and now people have a problem with screws.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> I wonder. Is there anything that's at once superior to both screws and split-push-pins for connecting bracelet links? Because it seems like people have a problem with splitpins, and now people have a problem with screws.


I don't think the screws in the small links were ever meant to be removed. I'm someone who mangled mine trying to get it out. Since it was mangled anyway I made it my mission one night to extract it. What I found was that the end (the one opposite the slotted end) was mushroomed. I assume this may have been deliberate, a safety measure so it would not back out.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> I wonder. Is there anything that's at once superior to both screws and split-push-pins for connecting bracelet links? Because it seems like people have a problem with splitpins, and now people have a problem with screws.


This is not the normal "can't seem to get it off" situation. There is an actual issue with the pins in the half links attached to the full links. Iv'e removed more then enough screws from bracelets including the troublesome Kontiki bracelet that you had to manage 2 screwdrivers at once. Before learning that you shouldn't remove the half links I tried everything including soaking, heating, etc. It was stuck part way out and could not go back in. Ultimately I had to use very strong pliers to get it out. No other pins from the bracelet will fit in there as well. The screws on the new style bracelet are also a bit thinner and more fragile then the previous bracelet.

Didn't touch the half links on the other one that arrived and I sized it with no problem.

Glad Doc is on the case like Scooby Doo and those meddling kids.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

mplsabdullah said:


> This is not the normal "can't seem to get it off" situation. There is an actual issue with the pins in the half links attached to the full links. Iv'e removed more then enough screws from bracelets including the troublesome Kontiki bracelet that you had to manage 2 screwdrivers at once. Before learning that you shouldn't remove the half links I tried everything including soaking, heating, etc. It was stuck part way out and could not go back in. Ultimately I had to use very strong pliers to get it out. No other pins from the bracelet will fit in there as well. The screws on the new style bracelet are also a bit thinner and more fragile then the previous bracelet.
> 
> Didn't touch the half links on the other one that arrived and I sized it with no problem.
> 
> Glad Doc is on the case like Scooby Doo and those meddling kids.


I feel like Doc just wants us to succeed and we keep letting him down. I may be the reason for the clarification on the half links today, UGH.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> I wonder. Is there anything that's at once superior to both screws and split-push-pins for connecting bracelet links? Because it seems like people have a problem with splitpins, and now people have a problem with screws.


Just my $0.02...

For some reason, WIS have come to associate folded split pins with "cheap", and the consensus seems to be that screws in bracelet links are "better".

I disagree that folded split pins are an indicator of "cheap", and while I once very much agreed that screws are better, I'm starting to re-think it. For the moment, even though I'm starting to think I know better than my customers (sort of like the Miyota vs ETA thing, or the steel vs ceramic thing), it's not a fight I'm willing to take on.

I suspect part of the issue with split pins is that they require a special tool to remove. The choices for tools include cheap/crappy tools that break easily and very well-made, not cheap tools which also break easily (not the tools per se, but those prong-tips bend easily).

When a large group of people come to hate a tool, it makes sense they'll hate the thing which is driving the need for that tool.

But, from my perspective, when I compare the number of customers reporting problems with screws (lots) to those who reported problems with split pins (none), this is starting to feel like a fight I may need to make happen in the future.

Before anyone tells me about the Seiko system, don't. I'm not screwing around with any multi-piece assemblies requiring a high-level of dexterity and involving the high risk of an increased number of people emailing me to ask for replacements of lost bracelet parts.

Not. Gonna. Do it.

PS/EDIT - ^This doesn't even get into the number of people stabbing themselves in the thumb with 1mm screwdrivers. Say what you want about those stupid split-pin removal tools, I've never heard of anyone injuring themselves with one.



Jtragic said:


> I don't think the screws in the small links were ever meant to be removed. I'm someone who mangled mine trying to get it out. Since it was mangled anyway I made it my mission one night to extract it. What I found was that the end (the one opposite the slotted end) was mushroomed. I assume this may have been deliberate, a safety measure so it would not back out.


I'm 99% certain it wasn't intentional.

A reviewer just told me he's been seeing similar issues with other micros lately. My hunch is we're using the same bracelet manufacturer, and someone there has done something to change the recipe for success. Maybe the screws are 304 instead of 316, or they're making them a hair thinner, or they're not hardening them the right way. I don't know what it is, but I plan to make a stink about it.

Making a stink is one of my skills.



mplsabdullah said:


> This is not the normal "can't seem to get it off" situation. There is an actual issue with the pins in the half links attached to the full links. Iv'e removed more then enough screws from bracelets including the troublesome Kontiki bracelet that you had to manage 2 screwdrivers at once. Before learning that you shouldn't remove the half links I tried everything including soaking, heating, etc. It was stuck part way out and could not go back in. Ultimately I had to use very strong pliers to get it out. No other pins from the bracelet will fit in there as well. The screws on the new style bracelet are also a bit thinner and more fragile then the previous bracelet.
> 
> Didn't touch the half links on the other one that arrived and I sized it with no problem.
> 
> Glad Doc is on the case like Scooby Doo and those meddling kids.


The first one we dissected here revealed a small bit of metal flashing (a burr, basically) inside the threads within the link, which caused the screw to get stuck, and not be able to come out or go back in.

Metal debris happens when you you make metal parts. They're supposed to do a better job getting rid of it. I'm not saying that's the ONLY cause of this. I think the mangled screw heads point to a softer alloy and/or a thinner-than-they-ought-to-be diameter for the screws. We used to not have these problems, so something has changed, and it's just a matter of our suppliers finding what it is.



basso4735 said:


> I feel like Doc just wants us to succeed and we keep letting him down. I may be the reason for the clarification on the half links today, UGH.


You were, but you were also the guy to make me realize I needed to clarify, so...I dunno, we'll let you continue on to the lightning round.
...

Guys - I don't have a good excuse for this. I was in this bracelet factory last May. I *KNOW* they're among the best in the biz, and bracelets are all they freaking make. I drank tea and ate boiled cow with the factory owner. I thought we had an understanding.

I don't understand how they muffed the measurement on the clasp-link/half-link, how they're missing the wide-spread issues with the screws, or why they put arrows on the inside of the links if everyone agrees those should only be there when you've got split-pins inside.

The "good news" here is they're taking ownership of the problem. They're remaking all the clasp-links and 1/2-links, and they're resupplying us with what we need to make everyone whole. We'll have all the corrections made for the next iteration using this bracelet.

Now it's just up to my team to effectively manage the situation, which I think we're doing. We got more links, we're sending them out. I don't know what else we can do. We can't effectively QC bracelet screws when the bracelets come wrapped in plastic. They should have done that over there, before doing assembly and sending us the watches.

And, if my suspicion is correct, and I'm not the only guy seeing this, then I further suspect someone is already taking drastic steps to correct the cause. Just in case the appropriate a$$ hasn't already been kicked, I'll be bringing it up with my OEM, who ought to have enough juice with the bracelet supplier to arrest the situation.

It sucks. I hate dealing with stupid problems, and these are stupid. But, I try to see the silver lining. This is an opportunity to show that even when there's a problem, we're Johnny-on-the-spot with the fix, and no one is left hanging. Hopefully it's a story that gets told the next time that old "big brands = better service" argument breaks out.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Doc I think we all appreciate how you’ve handled this bracelet situation.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

My 12/40 reporting in.

Fortunately due to not being home until today and reading all the issues about the links in all the places where Doc posted them I was very forewarned. So I only set the micro adjustment in the middle of the clasp then checked sizing and determined I only needs to remove 2 links. I did so on the watch head side of the 6oclock side of the bracelet as I like the clasp to be more towards the 6 hour side than away if that makes sense. The screws backed out easily, then I made sure they all were snug. The arrows are misleading. I get that they were pointing to the head of the screw but for all other bracelets with arrows it's the direction you are supposed to push from other side to remove the pin. A split pin also looks like a screw on the one end so this can be very confusing if I did not already know it was a screw.

Anyway it's done and I'm satisfied. The watch came with two other links already so I have plenty.

Great job on this Doc!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Mint switch









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

I've scratched enough links (on quite expensive watches as well) to feel confident calling myself an expert on bracelet screws. I'm also comfortable disassembling smart phones and building complicated 1/10 scale radio controlled cars, so maybe it comes naturally. But, four things prevent most problems with bracelet screws -
1 - Set yourself up at a table where you can rest your elbows on it and place a very bright flashlight facing your work. Get your face close to what you're doing. Standing over a low kitchen counter will fail you.
2 - Buy decent micro screwdrivers. $8-10 will get you a nice set. You can spend up to $20 a piece for fancy ones with cnc machined handles. Bottom line is, screwdrivers from the $2.99 glasses repair kits at the pharmacy don't cut it.
3 - With your bright light shining on it, place the screwdriver into the slot and press. Before trying to break the screw loose, make sure the tip of the driver has good purchase by applying a little pressure in each direction. 
4 - (Most important!) The thumb and index finger of the hand not holding the driver should be firmly bracing the end of the driver against the screw until you've backed it out all the way. You'll never stab yourself or scratch a link if you do that every time.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Y'all enjoy the day!










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

92gli said:


> I've scratched enough links (on quite expensive watches as well) to feel confident calling myself an expert on bracelet screws. I'm also comfortable disassembling smart phones and building complicated 1/10 scale radio controlled cars, so maybe it comes naturally. But, four things prevent most problems with bracelet screws -
> 1 - Set yourself up at a table where you can rest your elbows on it and place a very bright flashlight facing your work. Get your face close to what you're doing. Standing over a low kitchen counter will fail you.
> 2 - Buy decent micro screwdrivers. $8-10 will get you a nice set. You can spend up to $20 a piece for fancy ones with cnc machined handles. Bottom line is, screwdrivers from the $2.99 glasses repair kits at the pharmacy don't cut it.
> 3 - With your bright light shining on it, place the screwdriver into the slot and press. Before trying to break the screw loose, make sure the tip of the driver has good purchase by applying a little pressure in each direction.
> 4 - (Most important!) The thumb and index finger of the hand not holding the driver should be firmly bracing the end of the driver against the screw until you've backed it out all the way. You'll never stab yourself or scratch a link if you do that every time.


Great advice. And tagging on: Getting most of the "essential tools" for watch repair/ownership will cost less than a cheap affordable. But it makes the hobby much more enjoyable, and a LOT less stressful.

And Happy Thanksgiving to you all.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Great advice. And tagging on: Getting most of the "essential tools" for watch repair/ownership will cost less than a cheap affordable. But it makes the hobby much more enjoyable, and a LOT less stressful.
> 
> And Happy Thanksgiving to you all.


Indeed, over time I've bought all of the essential tools (in some cases multiples), and even some more exotic ones for the odd project (within reason, I'm no watchmaker or machinist-type).

I concur that the wise budding hobbyist will spend some more $ upfront to get quality tools-not the absolute best necessarily, but at least well-reviewed mid-range priced tools. Or you can dismiss the advice and learn why it's good advice-like I did 

Yes, the differences between quality and ****e tools are subtle. And yes, the subtleties contribute noticeably to lesser or greater amounts of frustration, and minor watch damages, while performing maintenance tasks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

92gli said:


> I've scratched enough links (on quite expensive watches as well) to feel confident calling myself an expert on bracelet screws. I'm also comfortable disassembling smart phones and building complicated 1/10 scale radio controlled cars, so maybe it comes naturally. But, four things prevent most problems with bracelet screws -
> 1 - Set yourself up at a table where you can rest your elbows on it and place a very bright flashlight facing your work. Get your face close to what you're doing. Standing over a low kitchen counter will fail you.
> 2 - Buy decent micro screwdrivers. $8-10 will get you a nice set. You can spend up to $20 a piece for fancy ones with cnc machined handles. Bottom line is, screwdrivers from the $2.99 glasses repair kits at the pharmacy don't cut it.
> 3 - With your bright light shining on it, place the screwdriver into the slot and press. Before trying to break the screw loose, make sure the tip of the driver has good purchase by applying a little pressure in each direction.
> 4 - (Most important!) The thumb and index finger of the hand not holding the driver should be firmly bracing the end of the driver against the screw until you've backed it out all the way. You'll never stab yourself or scratch a link if you do that every time.


Great advise however that still would not do anything to help when a "small bit of metal flashing" is keeping the pin from coming out or going back in. This is one instance where user error is not the issue.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

mplsabdullah said:


> Great advise however that still would not do anything to help when a "small bit of metal flashing" is keeping the pin from coming out or going back in. This is one instance where user error is not the issue.


Yes, but people saying screws are a booby trap is a constant


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

92gli said:


> Yes, but people saying screws are a booby trap is a constant


Gotcha sir |>

Personally I prefer screws over all other options.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I prefer screws, but split-pins don't fuss me much. Pins and collars --- yuck!


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Dang it Doc! I am not supposed to be wearing this yet, as it is gonna be a gift, but I just can't help myself. She's never gonna know right? RIGHT???(deleting pics off of phone as we speak)









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Dub Rubb said:


> Dang it Doc! I am not supposed to be wearing this yet, as it is gonna be a gift, but I just can't help myself. She's never gonna know right? RIGHT???


Right!


----------



## Ellipsis... (Jan 5, 2017)

ck2k01 said:


> You and me both, bro.
> 
> You bros like to party?
> 
> ...


It would appear I brought a knife to a gunfight LOL

That BGW9 goodness:


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

92gli said:


> I've scratched enough links (on quite expensive watches as well) to feel confident calling myself an expert on bracelet screws. I'm also comfortable disassembling smart phones and building complicated 1/10 scale radio controlled cars, so maybe it comes naturally. But, four things prevent most problems with bracelet screws -
> 1 - Set yourself up at a table where you can rest your elbows on it and place a very bright flashlight facing your work. Get your face close to what you're doing. Standing over a low kitchen counter will fail you.
> 2 - Buy decent micro screwdrivers. $8-10 will get you a nice set. You can spend up to $20 a piece for fancy ones with cnc machined handles. Bottom line is, screwdrivers from the $2.99 glasses repair kits at the pharmacy don't cut it.
> 3 - With your bright light shining on it, place the screwdriver into the slot and press. Before trying to break the screw loose, make sure the tip of the driver has good purchase by applying a little pressure in each direction.
> ...


This guy knows what's up. -^

Beautiful break-down my man. It took me several years and far too many jacked up bracelets, thumb-stabs, palm-stabs, neck spasms and grey hairs to figure mose of these things out for myself. Wish someone had hooked me up with a succinct little primer like this one when I was just getting started. Well done.

Kudos!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

The older I get, the more experience I have as a WIS, I have come to appreciate the low profile form factor of NTH sub watches. Those things are so slim and fit comfortably under dress shirts. They’re also light but have an impressive water WR. It’s gotten to the point where I’m looking at other watches and one of the factors I consider is how thick they are. I compare them to the NTH sub cases as a basis for comparison. Sometimes it’s favorable and others it’s not.


----------



## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

CAuse doc's watches are on fire


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Tanjecterly said:


> The older I get, the more experience I have as a WIS, I have come to appreciate the low profile form factor of NTH sub watches. Those things are so slim and fit comfortably under dress shirts. They're also light but have an impressive water WR. It's gotten to the point where I'm looking at other watches and one of the factors I consider is how thick they are. I compare them to the NTH sub cases as a basis for comparison. Sometimes it's favorable and others it's not.


Great post. I have trodden a similar path and for the past 2 to 3 years Janis Trading has been my go-to referral point for dimensional comparisons, not just with the Subs, but also the likes of Cerberus & Phantom, which have - for me - near perfect size characteristics.

If I come across a "Wow!!", I immediately check the dimensions and - because it has happened so many times - I ready myself for the potential disappointment of a watch that will be too large for me; a 1mm excess over my own personal parameters is ruthlessly rejected, a lesson learned with several purchase mistakes.

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> Great post. I have trodden a similar path and for the past 2 to 3 years Janis Trading has been my go-to referral point for dimensional comparisons, not just with the Subs, but also the likes of Cerberus & Phantom, which have - for me - near perfect size characteristics.
> 
> If I come across a "Wow!!", I immediately check the dimensions and - because it has happened so many times - I ready myself for the potential disappointment of a watch that will be too large for me; a 1mm excess over my own personal parameters is ruthlessly rejected, a lesson learned with several purchase mistakes.
> 
> ...


Ditto.

At 6.5", lug-to-lug distance is most important to me, but height isn't too far behind.

It's rare I'd go over 12.5-13mm tall, unless perhaps for a chronograph.

When I see a 10.5-12mm height, I say to myself, "Nice, like a sub, let's do it."

Sometimes there are exceptions based on case shape, crystal shape, etc.-that is, how a watch wears. But I'm talking in generalities-dimensional benchmarks that I use for initial rough screening purposes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Same here. Even though I ain't got a sub at the moment, it's still always at the back of my mind whenever considering other watches. The thinness of the NTH Sub case - objective and apparent - kinda sets a bar for other watches. Anything around 11mm makes me think "ok, cool, that's like a Sub, gonna be comfortable". Anything above 12 is "waaait, does this REALLY need to be so thick?".


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

While I still have brownie points in this thread, does anyone know of a good source of Tropic straps? I'm not a bracelet guy and tend to wear the subs on tropics. But my supply of NTH Tropic straps are not enough. I've tried Nodus, Uncle Seiko, but haven't tried Watchgecko (currently sold out for 20mm). Any other suggestions? At least equivalent to Doc's finest.

TYVM in advance!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Worth taking a look at Barton Elite straps. Sort of a modernized tropic.

WG tropic is decent, very strong vanilla scent though and average softness (nowhere near as horrible as US though). 

There was also a funky green inter-meshing rubber strap that iirc el_geek had on one of his watches. I completely forget the brand name of it though.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## hungdangnguyen23 (Mar 21, 2018)

Just picked up my first NTH an Amphion Gilt. I've been looking for a milsub homage for a while and got lucky that this one popped up on the Bay just as I happened to be looking:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nice review of the Skipjack from Random Rob.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Not great pics but the red/black barton silicone looks great on the skipjack


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Not great pics but the red/black barton silicone looks great on the skipjack


No need for false modesty around here.

Those pics are suitable for framing.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> No need for false modesty around here.
> 
> Those pics are suitable for framing.


Not just suitable for framing, but also for hanging, drawing, and quartering.


----------



## Ellipsis... (Jan 5, 2017)

The first of my Black Friday Strapapalooza purchases arrived already on Sunday and this is one of the two from B&R:


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> No need for false modesty around here.
> 
> Those pics are suitable for framing.


My $225 ZTE phone thanks you. Imagine what I could do if I spent as much on a phone as I do on a sub :-!


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

It's been 31 days straight with the Näcken Modern Blue. #watchfast completed! I think I might actually prolong this watchfast..currently I have no craving for any of my other watches. The Näcken is just so damn fine.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#twocrowntuesday










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## nemorior (Jan 1, 2017)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^^It's like "dueling banjos", except, you know...with Azores.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Bad lighting but...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

To the dogs









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*










Edit: Running at +6 dial up overnight. Nice!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Probably obvious, but here goes...

Guys with young kids - for crying out loud, don't leave your watches lying around, out in the open, where your kids can grab them.

My marketing guy has a DevilRay. It wasn't running right, so I had my watchmaker take a look at it. Watchmaker asks me what the hell he's been doing to it, and sends me pics. It looks like someone dropped it in a blender. Just beat to hell.

Marketing guy has a toddler in the house, and he's been leaving his watch on a table by the door with his keys.

Do the math.

Today he showed me a pic. His wife caught the little punk on camera, running around with the watch.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Probably obvious, but here goes...
> 
> Guys with young kids - for crying out loud, don't leave your watches lying around, out in the open, where your kids can grab them.
> 
> ...


Future WIS, and with good taste.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Future WIS, and with good taste.


There are some things about the situation I find refreshing.

My marketing guy wasn't into watches before I hired him. He loves his DevilRay, but he isn't like us (read: "WIS"). He wasn't even aware of the marks on it, and I'm not exaggerating when I say it looks beat to hell. When my watchmaker sent me the pics showing all the damage ("did he use pliers on the crown?"), I sent them to Aaron and Rusty, and we all had a good laugh (I copied Josh, the marketing guy).

This hobby of yours has given me a livelihood, so I can't gripe too much about WIS quirks. That said, I do like the idea that there are people out there who can wear a $700 watch and not obsess over its condition. It gives me hope I might someday stop seeing emails asking about replacement parts for what appear to be watches in excellent condition.

I mean, it's a tool-watch. I get that $700 is pushing at the margins of what most of us here consider "affordable" in a watch, but still, it's a TOOL watch, not meant to be a safe queen.

But then again, I picture that little rug rat running around the house, knocking it into furniture, and I cringe. Not only is the little bugger banging up a nice watch we made, someday he might end up being angry at himself (or more likely, his parents), that he was allowed to do it.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

RmacMD said:


> Future WIS, and with good taste.


LOL, that's exactly my first thought when I read this!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

In the "banging up watches" category: I used to worry about scratches, etc. But after realizing that when you get enough of them, they actually "camouflage" each other. Hard to find "just one" when there's a bunch of them.

Cracks me up that people will pay MORE for a used Rolex bezel with "patina" than it costs for a new one. Kind of like the jeans sold with mud already on them (Google it, it's hysterical). I enjoy making my own patina, and getting real mud on my jeans.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Some of the Black Friday strap hauls are coming in. This is a Strapsco vintage brown.









A few more coming in from Barton too, canvas and rubber.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> My marketing guy wasn't into watches before I hired him. He loves his DevilRay, but he isn't like us (read: "WIS"). He wasn't even aware of the marks on it, and I'm not exaggerating when I say it looks beat to hell. When my watchmaker sent me the pics showing all the damage ("did he use pliers on the crown?"), I sent them to Aaron and Rusty, and we all had a good laugh (I copied Josh, the marketing guy).


Stolen from the meme thread:


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Probably obvious, but here goes...
> 
> Guys with young kids - for crying out loud, don't leave your watches lying around, out in the open, where your kids can grab them.
> 
> ...


I leave a G-Shock on my nightstand as bait. Little booger eater goes for it every time. Gotta start 'em young.

Actually, joking aside, sometimes when he's sitting with dad, I will take my DR off and let him handle it a little. My favorite is before bed when we're reading bedtime stories in his room and the lights are dim. I'll hit it with the phone light and let him ooh and ahh over the lume. Kids are aweome.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)




----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)




----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Have a drink sweet Carolina!!!









Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Have a drink sweet Carolina!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I shudder at the thought of you licking all that IPA off your watch.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Panda Nacken...


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Hahah I actually did that LOL. I did post a video on my IG I think last night of putting the Watch in my mouth /hmm

There is a lesson here about drinking to much or mixing your drinks. (Whisky/IPA) but I would be damned if I know it yet.



Jtragic said:


> I shudder at the thought of you licking all that IPA off your watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Hahah I actually did that LOL. I did post a video on my IG I think last night of putting the Watch in my mouth /hmm
> 
> There is a lesson here about drinking to much or mixing your drinks. (Whisky/IPA) but I would be damned if I know it yet.


Just spit-balling here, but maybe the lesson is don't mix whiskey and beer?

Isn't the saying "liquor then beer, have good cheer. Beer plus whiskey, *****, what was I thinking?"

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Just spit-balling here, but maybe the lesson is don't mix whiskey and beer?
> 
> Isn't the saying "liquor then beer, have good cheer. Beer plus whiskey, *****, what was I thinking?"
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


Hmmm idk that one. Only saying I know that's similar goes like this: "Beer, whiskey, whiskey, beer, BARF BARF BARF BARF"


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Have a drink sweet Carolina!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Jtragic said:


> I shudder at the thought of you licking all that IPA off your watch.


Make sure you record it when you do!


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Thought it was "beer before liquor, never been sicker. Liquor before beer, all in the clear." Was I doing it wrong all this time???

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

Had a 3% session beer after church, then this in the evening.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_0232.jpg


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Lots of in and out with other brands over the last 2 weeks. It's nice to have an NTH back on the wrist today.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

DR









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^Dayum that's nice.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

New review from Bruce Williams


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## ChadUGWC (Oct 17, 2018)

NTH 'The Urban Gentry' Catalina. Love this watch.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ChadUGWC said:


> NTH 'The Urban Gentry' Catalina. Love this watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Glad you like it, Chad! I'm happy when customers are happy.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Some reflection in front of the fire


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## hungdangnguyen23 (Mar 21, 2018)

My first NTH. Impressive watch, what jumps out at me immediately is the bezel, raised markers on the dial, and the overall case quality/finishing. Well engineered bracelet too that just oozes quality vs some of my other bracelets. Very happy with this watch!


----------



## hungdangnguyen23 (Mar 21, 2018)

Bracelet sized, it is well machined and tolerances are tight on my example. I'm usually very finicky with steel bracelets so we'll see how long I can get along with this one, the watch wears very comfortably probably due in part to the height. It's pretty obvious to me that a lot of thought went into the design of this watch, this is clearly a labor of love and not another derivative dime-a-dozen submariner homages floating around out there.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nice write-up from one of the fellas at WWR - https://wristwatchreview.com/2018/12/06/hanging-out-with-the-nth-nacken-renegade/


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_0273.jpg


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Nice write-up from one of the fellas at WWR - https://wristwatchreview.com/2018/12/06/hanging-out-with-the-nth-nacken-renegade/


T'was a good right-up indeed. Delighted that the reviewer picked out the finish of the case and bracelet; it is difficult to describe, but the brightness of these items has a kind of "glow" and warmth about it, I've not seen a similar effect on other watches in my collection. This effect is subtle, but definitely there and certainly makes my Sub stand out - but absolutely not in a blingy way - as with a well known, shiny Swiss brand that uses high chrome content steel. Hope that you keep on repeating the special magic Doc.

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 13697813


That strap looks very cool on the Näcken - what strap is that?


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

karmadrome said:


> That strap looks very cool on the Näcken - what strap is that?


BluShark Original Navy Blue


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 13697813


That is a great combo!


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

Crown & Buckle Chevron strap. I can't recommend this adjustable single pass strap enough as someone with weird sized wrists.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

smkader said:


> Crown & Buckle Chevron strap. I can't recommend this adjustable single pass strap enough as someone with weird sized wrists.


Don't be so modest. Your wrists aren't just weird-sized. They're weird-looking too.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

hungdangnguyen23 said:


> My first NTH. Impressive watch, what jumps out at me immediately is the bezel,


The engraved brushed bezel is my favorite part of my nth sub. It's a great differentiator without being silly. Love the crown size and shape too.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> T'was a good right-up indeed. Delighted that the reviewer picked out the finish of the case and bracelet; it is difficult to describe, but the brightness of these items has a kind of "glow" and warmth about it, I've not seen a similar effect on other watches in my collection. This effect is subtle, but definitely there and certainly makes my Sub stand out - but absolutely not in a blingy way - as with a well known, shiny Swiss brand that uses high chrome content steel. Hope that you keep on repeating the special magic Doc.
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


One of my recurring frustrations with outsourced production, and I suppose part of it is the overseas part, is that none of us (those paying for the production) know what we don't know. And as such we frequently get what we get because it's what our suppliers think we want, without the benefit of having had much if any discussion about it.

For instance, I've been told there are different options for finishing quality. Do you think the options have ever been presented to me, and I've ever been asked what option I want? Neither has happened, at least not in the explicit sort of way you'd think would happen if business was conducted as it ought to be. A lot of improvement seems to come from a long process of trial and error, implication, subtlety in communication, nuance, etc.

I don't know if it's just a cultural divide, or the result of a language barrier, or something else. Maybe it's just natural, the disinclination of a supplier to spend a lot of time proposing and explaining all the options available for every feature, spec and component.

My primary supplier has told me that their finishing has been judged equal in quality to Longines or Panerai. Their words. What do I know from the finishing on either? It took some questioning to uncover the insight that he was explaining a range of quality available to us, from Longines on the low end to Panerai at the high end.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not disparaging anyone or any brand. I'm sure Longines finishing is fine, many will scoff at the above, and even I couldn't tell the difference without a real expert showing me.

I think we're at the point where we're getting the best quality our vendors are capable of providing, and if anyone is capable of noticing it, that's awesome. All I want is for people who buy the product to be happy with it.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

If only there was some young guy, as inexperienced as he is untrained and uneducated, who could serve as an intermediary between you and your production facilities. Now that would be a great business model, especially if you could encourage him to cold-call you without doing any homework first. Your business could be booming, doc!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

ChadUGWC said:


> NTH 'The Urban Gentry' Catalina. Love this watch.


So here's the deal: I like 12hr bezels. Much more than the regular 60 increment dive bezel inserts.

Doc, do you sell the bezel inserts separately so if it were my druthers I could either order, say, a Zwaardvis with the Calalina bezel insert, or source the insert from Janis Trading for replacement on my end? Would the bezel inserts happen to be a convenient and commonly available size, like aftermarket bezels for SKXs...?

Asking for a friend...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> So here's the deal: I like 12hr bezels. Much more than the regular 60 increment dive bezel inserts.
> 
> Doc, do you sell the bezel inserts separately so if it were my druthers I could either order, say, a Zwaardvis with the Calalina bezel insert, or source the insert from Janis Trading for replacement on my end? Would the bezel inserts happen to be a convenient and commonly available size, like aftermarket bezels for SKXs...?
> 
> Asking for a friend...


Doc has never forgiven me for hounding him into making mod parts back in the L&H days. Do not hold your breath. A couple years ago, I'd tell you to duck, but doc seems to have grown out of his rip-your-head-off days. Hell, his WOT days seem to be dwindling, too!

He might tell you to check out the Nth Tropic or the L&H Phantom, both of which had a 12-hour bezel. He's been resisting the allure of the "poor man's GMT," at least until the Catalina. I suppose if we found a couple hundred friends he'd do a special order for us...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

hwa said:


> Doc has never forgiven me for hounding him into making mod parts back in the L&H days. Do not hold your breath. A couple years ago, I'd tell you to duck, but doc seems to have grown out of his rip-your-head-off days. Hell, his WOT days seem to be dwindling, too!
> 
> He might tell you to check out the Nth Tropic or the L&H Phantom, both of which had a 12-hour bezel. He's been resisting the allure of the "poor man's GMT," at least until the Catalina. I suppose if we found a couple hundred friends he'd do a special order for us...


Yeah, I know of the Antilles and Phantom models -- long sold out, only available used sporadically. I've seen one Antilles up for sale and zero Phantom in a month of paying attention... I just ended up modding a SKX to the same effect. But, been eyeballing an orange diver, Zwaardvis is available...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> One of my recurring frustrations with outsourced production, and I suppose part of it is the overseas part, is that none of us (those paying for the production) know what we don't know. And as such we frequently get what we get because it's what our suppliers think we want, without the benefit of having had much if any discussion about it.
> 
> For instance, I've been told there are different options for finishing quality. Do you think the options have ever been presented to me, and I've ever been asked what option I want? Neither has happened, at least not in the explicit sort of way you'd think would happen if business was conducted as it ought to be. A lot of improvement seems to come from a long process of trial and error, implication, subtlety in communication, nuance, etc.
> 
> I don't know if it's just a cultural divide, or the result of a language barrier, or something else. Maybe it's just natural, the disinclination of a supplier to spend a lot of time proposing and explaining all the options available for every feature, spec and component.


Eeeeh just tell them that for the next watch, you require less _bling_ and more _blang_.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> So here's the deal: I like 12hr bezels. Much more than the regular 60 increment dive bezel inserts.
> 
> Doc, do you sell the bezel inserts separately so if it were my druthers I could either order, say, a Zwaardvis with the Calalina bezel insert, or source the insert from Janis Trading for replacement on my end? Would the bezel inserts happen to be a convenient and commonly available size, like aftermarket bezels for SKXs...?
> 
> Asking for a friend...


I don't sell parts.

We may look at doing some designs with 12-hour bezels at some point.

I do so love reading the comments from internet experts who decry the combination of 12-hour bezels with diving watch specs.


----------



## ibisuk (Dec 27, 2017)

smkader said:


> Crown & Buckle Chevron strap. I can't recommend this adjustable single pass strap enough as someone with weird sized wrists.


How do you adjust the length of these?

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

ibisuk said:


> How do you adjust the length of these?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk


There are holes, like with every other strap you've ever seen. If you think the tail is too long, you can cut it off and burn the ends. Pro-tip: if you want to shorten a nato, clamp the strap between a couple of nickels, use a sharp knife to follow the curve, then heat the ends with a lighter. Et voila.


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

ibisuk said:


> How do you adjust the length of these?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk





hwa said:


> There are holes, like with every other strap you've ever seen. If you think the tail is too long, you can cut it off and burn the ends. Pro-tip: if you want to shorten a nato, clamp the strap between a couple of nickels, use a sharp knife to follow the curve, then heat the ends with a lighter. Et voila.


This is what you DO NOT want to do. It isn't a nato strap. Here's a picture of the buckle to give you an easier understanding of the difference:









If you slide the keeper away from the buckle you can make it shorter, and get a better fit.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Finally got in my Black Friday WatchGecko straps in.
Replaced the BOR bracelet on my Antilles with their Winstone Racing leather strap.
Seems similar in style to the tropic that came with the watch, but since I don't like rubber/silicone straps, the Winstone works better for me.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Why would you want to do it right, when you could screw it up with a knife, a couple nickels, and a lighter?



smkader said:


> This is what you DO NOT want to do. It isn't a nato strap. Here's a picture of the buckle to give you an easier understanding of the difference:
> 
> View attachment 13701109
> 
> ...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orthos ii mod today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## ibisuk (Dec 27, 2017)

smkader said:


> This is what you DO NOT want to do. It isn't a nato strap. Here's a picture of the buckle to give you an easier understanding of the difference:
> 
> View attachment 13701109
> 
> ...


Now I get it. Thanks. Gonna buy one 

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I don't sell parts.
> 
> We may look at doing some designs with 12-hour bezels at some point.
> 
> I do so love reading the comments from internet experts who decry the combination of 12-hour bezels with diving watch specs.


Those guys who think "dive watches" could not serve as "pilot watches" with a 12-hour bezel must have missed the fact that both Rolex and Omega make their Submariner and Seamaster in a GMT version using the exact same case as the divers version. Both of which are awesome. Just sayin'


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I’m pro hybrid pilot-divers. 

When I travel, I like to know that, theoretically, I could fly the plane, parachute out of it into a body of water, and deep dive, all en route to gambling and picking someone up at the bar, and all by virtue of the hybrid pilot’s/diver’s watch on my wrist. 

I guess I just appreciate versatility, you know?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

You forgot the part about 'money for nothin' and the chicks for free'...



ck2k01 said:


> I'm pro hybrid pilot-divers.
> 
> When I travel, I like to know that, theoretically, I could fly the plane, parachute out of it into a body of water, and deep dive, all en route to gambling and picking someone up at the bar, and all by virtue of the hybrid pilot's/diver's watch on my wrist.
> 
> ...


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_0212.jpg


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Why would you want to do it right, when you could screw it up with a knife, a couple nickels, and a lighter?


"I size my bracelets using bolt cutters and a hammer." - Glen Roiland.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> "I size my bracelets using bolt cutters and a hammer." - Glen Roiland.


Last time I'm telling you ANYTHING.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> "I size my bracelets using bolt cutters and a hammer." - Glen Roiland.


Last time I'm telling you ANYTHING.

Edit...double post forced me to tell you twice that I'm not telling you ANYTHING again.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> Last time I'm telling you ANYTHING.


Hey, at least YOU were successful. As opposed to me and the drill press.


----------



## hungdangnguyen23 (Mar 21, 2018)

I randomly went on eBay looking for another NTH and found a Santa Cruz for a great price. With the eBay 10% promo, it was a no-brainer.









This will be my 2nd NTH - got the Amphion a week ago and now the Santa Cruz later this December, pretty good month!

Oh and the NTH is such a strapmonster on a green/red Erika's, this combo works really well to my eye:


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

No matter how much I drank, or how thin my wrist, never had a problem. Moral: never send a pilot or veterinarian to do a lawyer’s job. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> Yeah, I know of the Antilles and Phantom models -- long sold out, only available used sporadically. I've seen one Antilles up for sale and zero Phantom in a month of paying attention... I just ended up modding a SKX to the same effect. But, been eyeballing an orange diver, Zwaardvis is available...


Sweet that you've found our other little 12hr bezel topic thread! I'll just leave this here.









Beg if you must, willing to listen.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Still.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

smkader said:


> This is what you DO NOT want to do. It isn't a nato strap. Here's a picture of the buckle to give you an easier understanding of the difference:
> 
> View attachment 13701109
> 
> ...


I have a couple of these Crown-and-Buckle straps and really love them. With my skinny, 6.5" wrists, most NATO straps are really uncomfortable for me. In fact, I often cut off the part of my NATO straps that provides the broken spring bar protection just to make them more comfortable.

I also have a bunch of nylon Zulu straps, but they're not as nice as the C&B straps.. WHY?

Well, the C&B straps, with their ability to adjust the length with another method rather than buckle holes, allow you get it JUST RIGHT for placement and control the overall length. Regular NATO straps don't do this.

Try one, you may love it.

Skip

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

azsuprasm said:


> Beg if you must, willing to listen.


lolz!

I actually stopped looking after modding the SKX, but another WUS member beat you to the punch with a trade offer of the exact same watch. Considering...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Here's part of the challenge for me..

Everyone agrees it's a good idea for brands to offer new models in different colorways.

If I have to make 500 pieces per production, at a minimum, I want to break that up into smaller numbers, so adding multiple colorways or basic variations on a theme is good. Let's say I offer 5 colors. That's 100 per color.

You guys want date/no-date options. Just doing that doubles the number of SKUS from 5 to 10, and cuts the numbers per SKU in half, to 50, which is the minimum number of pieces I'm supposed to make per SKU, or at least, the minimum number of pieces for each component (dials, bezel inserts, etc). We could just stop there.

I might tell my factory, make 50 pieces of all the unique components (dials, handsets, bezel inserts), but just assemble 25 of each SKU, and put the rest of the parts on the shelf for a later production/assembly. I still have to pay for their production cost now. But at this point, I could make every design with an optional 60-minute/12hr bezel.

But now I'm up to 20 SKUs in a 500 piece production, which is a lot, and makes assembly a complicated affair. Plus, I'm telling my retailers to buy at least two per SKU. Instead of buying 20 pieces, I'm asking them to commit to 40 up front.

I've only got five basic colors, still. But there are four different versions per dial color. I still have to sell 100 of each, total. I'm telling them to buy eight per dial color, when they may not feel equally confident in each of them, and really they only want 2-4 pieces of some.

Plus, now I've got to consider spares. We usually ask for 1%-3% replacement parts, depending on the component. If I make 500 pieces with the same bezel insert, we'll stock 5-15 inserts, all the same. When we start getting crazy with the variations, we end up with a challenge managing spare parts inventory. We get a box of parts no one needs, and requests for parts we no longer have.

I'd rather make 50 of this, with 25 date/no date, and 50 of that, 25/25, so on and so forth, and assemble the designs in numbers according to the apparent demand. If I want to do a design with a 12hr bezel, we'll just make a design with a 12hr bezel, and not screw around trying to make EVERY design with a 12hr bezel.

So why don't I make some more with 12hr bezels? I dunno. The demand for what we make has proven high enough that I haven't felt pressure to change what we're doing. We'll likely make some 12hr bezel models soon enough, just because, but I doubt we'll ever be able to rationalize making every model with either 60min or 12hr as an option.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

And here's a picture of a watch.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Here's part of the challenge for me...


I get all this. I work as a production manager -- granted, in publishing, so we do a bunch of one-off products without the headaches of multiples of, say, colors, let alone date windows vs. no, or bezel designs.

But it is a lot like bicycles. Manufacturer makes something, a bike they think people will like based on what they hear on the street (interwebz), while keeping within the realities of manufacturing to a price point. Inevitably, the hoi polloi will pick it apart over details, like "I would be so there, but they really biffed it with only a 11-36 cassette, not a wider range, and why on earth would they not make this in black with day-glo highlights?!? Not buying!"

However, you have a few different design options, building from the ground-up. Bezel insert the same size as any popular, current, aftermarket line. If it would work without compromising the design of the rest of the watch, same size as SKX or SRP inserts. Standard Bezel-size insert across any given range of watches, so instead of having to stock a spare for one specific model (Catalina), you have a 12hr bezel insert that will fit a range of models.

But how many of us are out here? Like 6 people who happen to be visible and vocal online about their preference for a 12hr bezel? You gonna compromise just for a minority of whingers who think they can do a better job than you but who are too chickens**t to actually do their own thing? No, of course not, f' 'em! And we certainly got alternatives, from other brands, aftermarket sources, more advanced modding, to waiting patiently for the next NTH release with whatever feature we prefer.

I am totally thrilled with the wide range of releases from NTH. The fact that there was a Catalina model with a 12hr bezel. The Antilles, when you just could have stopped with the Azores and called it a day. The Phantom...

Really appreciate what you're doing; query about 12hr bezel was not a criticism or suggestion, more like an honest to goodness question out of sheer ignorance. Thanks!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> I get all this. I work as a production manager -- granted, in publishing, so we do a bunch of one-off products without the headaches of multiples of, say, colors, let alone date windows vs. no, or bezel designs.
> 
> But it is a lot like bicycles. Manufacturer makes something, a bike they think people will like based on what they hear on the street (interwebz), while keeping within the realities of manufacturing to a price point. Inevitably, the hoi polloi will pick it apart over details, like "I would be so there, but they really biffed it with only a 11-36 cassette, not a wider range, and why on earth would they not make this in black with day-glo highlights?!? Not buying!"
> 
> ...


No worries, and I didn't take anyone's comments as whinging, or anything negative.

I'm very aware I have customers and friends who like 12 hour bezels. I'm not against making them, at all. I like them sometimes. It's just not possible for me to produce everything we want to make eventually - but all at the same time.

Sometimes, I have to shelve an idea for a later date. We've got a new Subs design in production now, which is something we've been looking at doing for over a year, since before we started working on the DevilRay.

The Bahia and Skipjack were both sitting on our planning board since about the same time, along with a couple other ideas which may never make it to production. I looked at the half-dozen or so distinct designs we were working on, and started to think, "Why would we make ALL of these AT THE SAME TIME? Why make 3-4 blue dialed watches if they all have the same blue, and the dial pattern is somewhat similar, or the handset is the same? Shouldn't we focus on those we really want to make the most, and time their production so that they're not lost in the shuffle?"

I think we're working on a Sub with a 12hr bezel now. I say "think" because it's a special-edition, and we're taking input from someone else on its design. I've suggested a 12hr bezel. We'll see what they say. If they nix the idea, I'm sure we'll find a way to do a 12hr bezel with some other Sub design. At the end of last week, I was beating Aaron up to come up with a 12hr bezel font distinct from the Catalina. I'll feel...well, not "guilty", but...a little bad if we don't use it now that he's come up with it.

I like that the Catalina was well-received, and I don't have any regrets about how that design turned out. But it's clear that there is more demand for a Sub with a 12hr bezel, and not all of the demand is from people who like the Catalina enough, so I think there's still opportunity there to exploit.

As for what people say online (or email me - yes, it still happens)...

There's a balance to be struck, from both sides.

I think it's good for me and others in my position to give some of those ideas a fair hearing, if we can manage to avoid falling into the trap of doing design by internet committee (kill me now).

Likewise, I think it's perfectly okay for people to say what they want, even if it's couched as criticism of something not quite there, if they can stand me or someone like me telling them why we won't or can't make it, without getting their pants in a twist over it, or feeling insulted because we won't make exactly what you want, how you want it.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...Likewise, I think it's perfectly okay for people to say what they want, even if it's couched as criticism of something not quite there, if they can stand me or someone like me telling them why we won't or can't make it, without getting their pants in a twist over it, or feeling insulted because we won't make exactly what you want, how you want it.


Crap, you're either getting old or soft Chris. That is a softer tone right there...kinda nice.

mconlonx, I'd be honored to get such a response...and I am, admittedly, one of the top-ten 12hr weenies on this forum.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Rhorya said:


> And here's a picture of a watch.


And it's beauty. And one I need to own someday!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



azsuprasm said:


> Crap, you're either getting old or soft Chris. That is a softer tone right there...kinda nice.
> 
> mconlonx, I'd be honored to get such a response...and I am, admittedly, one of the top-ten 12hr weenies on this forum.


I try to be matter-of-fact and precise in my responses, as much as possible. The reality is that sometimes precise and matter-of-fact makes me sound harsh, and in this case I guess it makes me sound like I'm getting soft.

People sometimes can't handle "matter-of-fact", or deal with precision in language. If you ask a stupid question, you may feel stupid after hearing the answer. If you ask a jerky question, don't be surprised if the response makes you sound like a jerk.

I once told a guy if he went around insulting people where I come from, he risked getting hurt. A lot of people lost their minds at that, and said I was threatening the guy. I wasn't. That's just a basic, common-sense observation, something I frequently tell my sons. It's just good advice, as far as I can tell. No threat implied, at all.

I'm too old to worry about guys getting their pants in a twist because I didn't put enough energy into soft-shoeing the answer to the question they asked.

Big boy pants - we all need to wear 'em.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I try to be matter-of-fact and precise in my responses, as much as possible. The reality is that sometimes precise and matter-of-fact makes me sound harsh, and in this case I guess it makes me sound like I'm getting soft.
> 
> People sometimes can't handle "matter-of-fact", or deal with precision in language. If you ask a stupid question, you may feel stupid after hearing the answer. If you ask a jerky question, don't be surprised if the response makes you sound like a jerk.
> 
> ...


Just saw this online. Seems right to me.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> No worries, and I didn't take anyone's comments as whinging, or anything negative.
> 
> I'm very aware I have customers and friends who like 12 hour bezels. I'm not against making them, at all. I like them sometimes. It's just not possible for me to produce everything we want to make eventually - but all at the same time.
> 
> ...


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_0303.jpg


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Love this watch!!!!!!!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tissotguy (Oct 31, 2014)

2.5 years later...still going strong...still loving it!!!! Thanks doc!

















And still in perfect condition :-!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Vanilla










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

hwa said:


> Why would you want to do it right, when you could screw it up with a knife, a couple nickels, and a lighter?


Man, you slayed me with this one. Still laughing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Currently my favourite NTH/L&H out of the five I own. Getting ready for Christmas, putting out the decorations.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nice video review from Armand the Watch Guy...


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Skipjack


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> Love this watch!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When will doc stock an SF with Skeletons, 12-hr bezel, on a jubilee? Cmon, man, we want what we want.

Then again, some of us change things because we can!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Elbakalao said:


> Man, you slayed me with this one. Still laughing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was pretty proud of that backwards mea culpa!

Public service announcement: read the whole post before offering assistance!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Is it possible to do a skellington bezel?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Is it possible to do a skellington bezel?


Don't.

Just. Don't.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

why not? It would be an upgrade.



docvail said:


> Don't.
> 
> Just. Don't.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Some late night lume goodness.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Hey Doc, what's the deal with what looks like a DLC black/gray dial Dolphin in the most recent "Giveaway" email? Is that a thing? Please tell me that's a thing.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Hey Doc, what's the deal with what looks like a DLC black/gray dial Dolphin in the most recent "Giveaway" email? Is that a thing? Please tell me that's a thing.


It is a thing.

It's called a "lume shot".

Ya see, when you turn the lights out, the lume glows, and everything else looks darker.

Sometimes people mistake the regular-old-stainless-steel watches in these darkened images for DLC-coated watches.

I blame Rusty.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Something to brighten up these dark evenings.........









Chow,

Alan


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## hungdangnguyen23 (Mar 21, 2018)

My Santa Cruz just landed in time for the weekend. I like this one even more than the Amphion, that dial pops so hard and I'm a big fan of white dialed watches to begin with.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

When in doubt, always blame Rusty. He’s stuck in a swamp somewhere. What can he do?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> It is a thing.
> 
> It's called a "lume shot".
> 
> ...


Oh you dirty tease. I was really curious if that was a new/upcoming "Ninja Dolphin." Sad face.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Oh you dirty tease. I was really curious if that was a new/upcoming "Ninja Dolphin." Sad face.


We do have something dark coming, but it ain't a Dolphin.

Should be able to reveal it early next week.

If Rusty does his job...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Oh you dirty tease. I was really curious if that was a new/upcoming "Ninja Dolphin." Sad face.


One would think the lumed bits would have given it away...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

Will that be the reveal you teased about a few weeks ago - a sub you wanted to reveal at the end of this year ?

Can't wait, what it will look like 


docvail said:


> We do have something dark coming, but it ain't a Dolphin.
> 
> Should be able to reveal it early next week.
> 
> If Rusty does his job...


Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I'm not particularly into white dialed watches-except this one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

ck2k01 said:


> I'm not particularly into white dialed watches-except this one.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, Yankeexpress is always splashing that thing around making me envious! I differ in the fact I love white dials, and this one in particular. I have decided to make an effort to not buy any more white dial watches because more than half of my collection consists of them, but this thing is killing me!


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> .


Yowza


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

*duplicate post*


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Poerger said:


> Will that be the reveal you teased about a few weeks ago - a sub you wanted to reveal at the end of this year ?
> 
> Can't wait, what it will look like
> 
> Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


It is the end of the year, ain't it?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wait 'till you see what Rusty's been working on.

The watch is sick, but we've also got a new trick up our sleeve for showing new designs. Rusty just got a new toy, and it's enabling him to do some pretty cool stuff. I can't think of any micros, and few if any large brands, who are doing what we'll be doing for new models.

Once he gets really good at using it, we'll be doing some really mind-blowing $hlt.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Mr.Jones82 said:


> Oh, Yankeexpress is always splashing that thing around making me envious! I differ in the fact I love white dials, and this one in particular. I have decided to make an effort to not buy any more white dial watches because more than half of my collection consists of them, but this thing is killing me!


Sell one and buy this. Problem solved.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Excited for the EoY reveal.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Lucky to have the Holland and Dolphin Magenta in the house for a bit - as always, impressed with the comfort of the NTH subs case and the details found in the dials. The Dolphin literally seems like it's glowing.

Took some initial photos of them:


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Mr.Jones82 said:


> Oh, Yankeexpress is always splashing that thing around making me envious! I differ in the fact I love white dials, and this one in particular. I have decided to make an effort to not buy any more white dial watches because more than half of my collection consists of them, but this thing is killing me!


Say what? I'm a flasher now....errr, a Splasher.







Learned in the Time Bum review that it is a homage to this Zerograph. Learn something new every day.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just watch your emails tomorrow, guys.

All I'm sayin'...

Gotta go get some food in me, and watch the Iggles game.

I'm out.

PEACE!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Hmmmmm. What could it be? A watch?

Heres a sneak peek of tomorrow's reveal:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13725659
> 
> 
> Just watch your emails tomorrow, guys.
> ...


Double post. Deserved as I was trying to be a wise arse.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13725659
> 
> 
> Just watch your emails tomorrow, guys.
> ...


I know. Anki vector gets the Alexa integration update. Can't wait.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep 6 ....








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13725659
> 
> 
> Just watch your emails tomorrow, guys.
> ...


Looking forward to it, Doc~


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

I do hope I suscribed to your newsletter successfully. Didnt get an confirmation or anything 

Besides: This is the first newsletter Im eager to get.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> Say what? I'm a flasher now....errr, a Splasher.
> 
> [/img]https://i.postimg.cc/qRQCT2Xq/FB89-E56-F-DB7-C-4-D95-BD84-EAC3-A2-F86330.jpg[/img]
> 
> ...


Mine says hey this morning.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I just traded for one of those Sauros. The guy didn't mention its ability to talk. That's a freakin' huge bonus. Will have to discuss it later with my dog.



ck2k01 said:


> Mine says hey this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> I just traded for one of those Sauros. The guy didn't mention its ability to talk. That's a freakin' huge bonus. Will have to discuss it later with my dog.


Laugh all you want, but I predict that Doc's reveal today is going to be something like



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

If doc's watch could talk like he types, it'd never stfu.

I'd buy one for all my friends!



ck2k01 said:


> Laugh all you want, but I predict that Doc's reveal today is going to be something like
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> If doc's watch could talk like he types, it'd never stfu.
> 
> I'd buy one for all my friends!


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Just in case there is going to be a big reveal, I won't ruin it, but it appears to be up on YT.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

The barracuda vintage black

https://nthwatches.com/collections/subs/products/barracuda-vintage-black


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Marketing guy Josh is sending out the email blast.

Rusty did a cool video animation with original score by Aaron. It's up on Instagram, Facebook, and the NTH Watches YT channel - 




Can't figure out how to embed video with Tapatalk, but that link ought to work.

EDIT - here you go:






I don't know if I'm the only one thrilled by the video, but I think that's smooth as a pimp on rollerblades. The ability to rotate a 3D model to catch the light should help with the challenge of how to show what the watches look like when we're in pre-production. Flat images, even 3D images, just never seem to be quite enough.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## gokce (May 10, 2018)

mplsabdullah said:


> The barracuda vintage black
> 
> https://nthwatches.com/collections/subs/products/barracuda-vintage-black


Gilt dial and gilt hands? Count me in. And just as I was promising myself no more black dial divers.


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

Indeed a very good looking watch 

Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

No 3D VR images? Boooo.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> No 3D VR images? Boooo.


Cue up the video on your phone, mount your phone into one of those Oculus goggles, and voila - 3D VR.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GUY: "This watch has a defect you obviously missed in QC. The bezel insert is mis-aligned by 1/4 of a click."

ME: "Sorry about that. The inserts are installed by hand, so what you're complaining about is actually within our QC standard, which is 1/2 a click, which means it's off by 0.42%, or, if you prefer, it's 99.58% of 'perfect'. But no worries. If it hasn't been worn, send it back for a refund, with our apologies that we couldn't meet your expectations."

GUY: "That's a horrible attitude, and I plan to tell everyone online how horrible you are."

ME: "Uhm...or, you could just return it for a refund (with our apologies). But...I'm getting that weird 'I've been wearing it' vibe now...Have you been wearing it? Why would you wear it if it has an 'obvious defect'? Who does that? I would have happily refunded you if we could re-stock it, but now we can't."

GUY: "I run a business. This isn't how you treat customers! Your FAQ's and emails are defensive, and that's a problem."

ME: "Guy, just in case you opted not to read the returns policy on our website before you made a purchase, it was repeated in each of the EIGHT separate messages you received between your order being placed and being received by you (6 emails, and 2 text messages). That policy was repeated again on the packing slip in the box, and on the little plastic card included with the watch. Are you telling me you didn't understand that we don't accept returns of worn goods - which is basically the policy of every company on the planet - despite our 11 attempts to provide you with this information, and that you went ahead and started wearing the watch anyway, in spite of your clear dissatisfaction with it? Do I have all that right?

GUY: Eff you. I'm going online to complain.

ME: Over something hand-assembled, that's within 0.21% of 100% perfection? Do what ya gotta do, Guy.


----------



## Ellipsis... (Jan 5, 2017)

Oh man that black Cuda is everything I wanted (minus gilt or even just a less bright date text I guess) but I really can't justify another purchase right now. Hmmm.

Holland still looking fine though:


----------



## sideways2 (Dec 1, 2016)

Hilarious!! But sorry man I feel your pain!!


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ellipsis... said:


> Oh man that black Cuda is everything I wanted (minus gilt or even just a less bright date text I guess) but I really can't justify another purchase right now. Hmmm.
> 
> Holland still looking fine though:
> 
> [/ATTACH=CONFIG]13727933[/ATTACH]


Nice strap pairing there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ellipsis... said:


> Oh man that black Cuda is everything I wanted (minus gilt or even just a less bright date text I guess) but I really can't justify another purchase right now. Hmmm.
> 
> Holland still looking fine though:
> 
> View attachment 13727933


That Holland looks hot! One day I'm gonna make my life mission of collecting one of each Subs LE. Although I've got the Carolina, I am always looking at the Holland and Nazarios.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I know I'm going to regret this, but...



Ellipsis... said:


> Oh man that black Cuda is everything I wanted (minus gilt or even just *a less bright date text* I guess)...


Can you explain the underlined part in bold?

The date text? It's white on a black date wheel. What would you rather see?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I know I'm going to regret this, but...
> 
> Can you explain the underlined part in bold?
> 
> The date text? It's white on a black date wheel. What would you rather see?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sideways2 said:


> Hilarious!! But sorry man I feel your pain!!


You don't even know.

I was just para-phrasing, and, as a general rule of thumb, while I sometimes make the other party sound more obnoxious, I make up for it by not betraying how stupid they proved they can be.

I had a guy complain that the turquoise strap he bought didn't match the white dialed watch he bought, and I was a jerk for not letting him exchange the white watch he wore (and lied about wearing) for an unworn turquoise watch, which would obviously be a better match.

Seriously? You're complaining about us shipping you EXACTLY what you ordered, and the complaint is that two different colors aren't - shock-of-shocks - the same color???

It's a shame the forum rules prohibit me re-posting emails. Bezel-boy today tried to tell me that, according to MY math, if the bezel was off by 0.42% at 12, it would be off by 50% by the time you rotated it to 6.

That just hurts my head. I can't understand how someone doesn't understand that a degree of variation at one point on a circle would be constant at every point on the circle, much less how you'd get from 0.42% to 50% going 180 degrees, or 60 clicks, or whatever.

After 5 years doing this, the post-sale support function is pretty standardized. The one problem we can't seem to solve is the guy who complains about an "OBVIOUS" defect in a watch he's been wearing. I've tried asking them to explain why they'd wear a watch with an obvious defect every way I can think of, and tried explaining why the returns policy makes perfect sense every way I can think of, and we still get half a dozen guys a year who can't seem to understand.

If you're not happy with something, don't use it, send it back. If you use it, that's effectively your acceptance of it - meaning you're HAPPY with it. If it was good enough to wear, then it doesn't have any "obvious defect". If you wore it, it isn't returnable for replacement or refund, and if whatever your issue is happens to be within our QC standards, then it's not fix-able under warranty.

"I plan to tell everyone it's risky buying a watch from you."

Really? That 30-day money-back satisfaction guarantee is risky?


----------



## Ellipsis... (Jan 5, 2017)

ck2k01 said:


> Nice strap pairing there.


|> Linen Melange from C&B - I hadn't put it on the Holland before but I just put a new Erikas on the Seaforth and decided to throw the perlon on the NTH. Really like it on there.



docvail said:


> I know I'm going to regret this, but...
> 
> Can you explain the underlined part in bold?
> 
> The date text? It's white on a black date wheel. What would you rather see?


I probably could have said the same (_I know I'm going to regret this, but..._) before my post, lol. I don't think this point is totally without merit though and I'm quite used to saying what is on my mind. If I had one quibble with what I'm seeing with the black Cuda it's just that there is not a single pure white mark on it. With the text and markings being all gilt or red and the C3 90% of the time being a creamier or greener shade I would prefer maybe a slightly cream text which be less distinct and would pair better with the lume. The same watch with C1 or BGW9 I'd say there's no issue and let's be honest it really isn't a big deal overall but it is something that would be on my wish list for my perfect NTH model.


----------



## sideways2 (Dec 1, 2016)

Oh I could probably tell you a story or two lol!! I don't get people these days... lack of common sense and stupidity abounds... in fact those are swear words here in my parts!!


----------



## sideways2 (Dec 1, 2016)

Btw... Princess Bride ... nothing better than that!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double-post that skipped two posts.

That's a new thing.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ellipsis... said:


> |> Linen Melange from C&B - I hadn't put it on the Holland before but I just put a new Erikas on the Seaforth and decided to throw the perlon on the NTH. Really like it on there.
> 
> I probably could have said the same (_I know I'm going to regret this, but..._) before my post, lol. I don't think this point is totally without merit though and I'm quite used to saying what is on my mind. If I had one quibble with what I'm seeing with the black Cuda it's just that there is not a single pure white mark on it. With the text and markings being all gilt or red and the C3 90% of the time being a creamier or greener shade I would prefer maybe a slightly cream text which be less distinct and would pair better with the lume. The same watch with C1 or BGW9 I'd say there's no issue and let's be honest it really isn't a big deal overall but it is something that would be on my wish list for my perfect NTH model.


So...it's a color-matching thing. Got it.

Here's my response...

The date window is 2.0mm wide, by 2.7mm tall. That's absurdly small as it is, and would be hard for many people to read the date when it's at 3 o'clock, and the font is "normal", with the window 2.7mm wide by 2.0mm tall.

When you move the date to 6, the orientation gets turned 90 degrees, and in order to fit the numbers into the thinner window, they make the font "tall", which could also be called "stupid-thin".

Reading the date when it's at 6 is harder than it is when it's at 3, especially when it's a double-digit date. It gets harder again when you have white text on a black background, instead of black text on a white background.

When you start out with compromised legibility, what you DON'T do (or at least, not without thinking it through), is reduce legibility further by decreasing the contrast, by using a darker color for the text.

I'm kind of an amateur statistician. I like to imagine all watch-geeks on a bell-curve of crazy. Most of my customers are within one standard deviation of the center-point on the crazy-bell-curve. But, unfortunately, some like to party out there on those thin tails, two to three standard deviations from the norm.

Preferring the date at 6 to 3, I get. That's symmetry.

Preferring the date wheel to be black rather than white, I get. That's the natural and understandable desire to match the date wheel color to the dial color.

But when your beef with a watch is that the text in the 2mm x 2.7mm date window is white, and there's no other white in the design, because the C3 is just a little bit not pure white, even knowing that if you got what you think you wanted it would be all but impossible to read without bionic eyes...

You're out there past 2 standard deviations.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Hey, crazy person, are you saying red text doesn’t match C3?

Doc, send him a box of C4...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Damn, that cuda is hot ****e. Been a bad week for the credit cards of weak-willed sub homage enthusiasts. First the Steinhart explorer and now this.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I love when we get on a roll that makes me wince and LOL every few hours.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Hey, crazy person, are you saying red text doesn't match C3?
> 
> Doc, send him a box of C4...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't have any C4, but...

*True Story* - when I was a medic with the Ranger School, I somehow got my hands on a green smoke grenade and a whole package of artillery simulators. More than 20 years later, I still have them, unopened.

I keep thinking someone will annoy me enough to throw an artillery simulator at them, or roll a green smoke grenade under their car. I know people have this image of me as this perpetually angry guy, but...c'mon, I've had these things in my home arsenal for more than 20 years, and haven't even opened the package.

Have you ever heard an artillery simulator? Those things are crazy-loud. If I threw one at you, you'd literally - not figuratively - $hlt yourself.

It's one thing when you're out humping through the swamp with a platoon of Ranger students. You *know* the arty sims are coming, especially when you hear the Ranger Instructor chuckle and whisper, "watch this...", and it still makes your heart jump.

But when you're just walking out of your house, and your fat, middle-aged neighbor tosses what could easily be a rolled-up newspaper at you? Bro, you're not expecting that "veeeeeeeeeeeeee----BANG" that's about to ruin your day.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just a general pro-tip...

If you're ever in any way dissatisfied with the support you've gotten from a company after buying something online, don't threaten the owner of that company, in any way, even if it's just with a public shaming.

They've got your name, your email, your address, which is very often your work address, and even if not, they know where you live, generally, so it's not hard to look you up on Facebook, or LinkedIn, or just do a $5 background check. 

You want to threaten me with a public shaming? Really? Me? I mean...have you seen the lunacy I post online?

Do you really want me posting screen-shots of our email exchange to my Facebook page, along with screen-shots of your LinkedIn or Facebook profile? Because, if you go online and say $hltty, untrue things about me and what happened, that's the end result. 

Now, if you want to say $hltty TRUE things about me, well, have at it. I can't complain too much if the things you say are true.

Never in the history of anyone being ruined by anyone has anyone ever been ruined by someone threatening "I'll ruin you!" That's as empty a threat as my mom saying she'd sell me to the gypsies (a traveling circus, and I might have been worried, but we didn't see many gypsies in late 20th century suburban Philadelphia). 

Just deal straight with the business, and they'll deal straight with you. Leave the hollow threats and your watch-buying pedigree out of it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

ck2k01 said:


> I love when we get on a roll that makes me wince and LOL every few hours.


I'd been away awhile. Now if we can get Glen to show up, with Rusty riding shotgun, and God forbid a certain mid-career lawyer shows up to remind me of my foibles, we can start to make a little progress.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I'm not sure getting sold to the Gypsies is an entirely bad thing. Depends on hold old you are...


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Ahhh ....., that Barracuda....can I make it through the holidays with enough cash on the other side? All I wanted was a black bay 58 with a date (and a 1/3 of the actual price).


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

so.......when can I buy one of them barracuda vintage black?


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Sooooo the gilt-cuda are sold out? Or preorder hasn't started yet?

I admittedly didn't read any of the narrative (all-day work meeting, in other word Monday) and went straight to the site to order, currently on the road. Feel free to chastise me.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

hwa said:


> I'd been away awhile. Now if we can get Glen to show up, with Rusty riding shotgun, and God forbid a certain mid-career lawyer shows up to remind me of my foibles, we can start to make a little progress.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok... Now where's Rusty? Does he have his shotgun, or is he riding it?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You guys are killing me. 

Like, I feel like I could die. Do you want to kill me? Because this is how you kill me.

C'mon. 

It's the first line in the email we sent out, at the top of the product page of the website, at the top of the category page of the website, at the top of the Instagram and Facebook posts, at the end of the blog post about it.

If you heard about it, there's NO WAY you didn't have "JANUARY" in your face.

On what planet does a microbrand announce a new model, no prior promotion of it whatsoever, and it's instantly sold out?

Don't tell me "Halios Seaforth". Jason showed those designs for months before they went on sale.

The Barracuda Black was revealed today. Do you really think it's sold out already? I mean, we're good, but NOBODY'S *that* good.

It goes on sale sometime in January. 

No pre-order. When we and our retail partners get them in and ready for sale, then we'll make them available for sale, and they'll ship right away.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> You guys are killing me.
> 
> Like, I feel like I could die. Do you want to kill me? Because this is how you kill me.
> 
> ...


Sorry boss.
I went to re-read the mailer again.

Extract: "The Barracuda Vintage Black is expected to be available for sale with immediate delivery in mid- to late-January 2019"

Got too excited and thought the "mid- to late- January 2019" referred to the "immediate delivery".

In this day and age of pre-orders lasting well over 6 months, 1 month seems "immediate" to me.

Apologies again.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

jamesezra said:


> Sorry boss.
> I went to re-read the mailer again.
> 
> Extract: "The Barracuda Vintage Black is expected to be available for sale with immediate delivery in mid- to late-January 2019"
> ...


tl/dr: I'm a dummy that didn't read.

You tryna kill doc?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> Ok... Now where's Rusty? Does he have his shotgun, or is he riding it?


Glen, it's good to have you back. And I feel badly that I left our pilot off my list. @dmjonez, don't fly the coop.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

hwa said:


> tl/dr: I'm a dummy that didn't read.
> 
> You tryna kill doc?


Well, commas would have made it clearer.

"The Barracuda Vintage Black is expected to be available for sale, with immediate delivery, in mid- to late-January 2019"

Or

"The Barracuda Vintage Black is expected to be available for sale in mid- to late-January 2019, with immediate delivery."

But if you still think I'm a dummy that didn't read, I'm cool with that too.


----------



## Leekster (Aug 7, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I have to be honest.

It wasn't that clear to me either.

I look on this forum occasionally. And while I have even purchased a few watches from NTH and H&L I don't focus on WUS that much. It's recreational and fills time with watch photos.
I don't do Facebook or any of that other stuff.

My emails are sorted by priority. I saw the video link on WUS and went to the website looking to buy and was unsure of what or when the watch was available.

So... now I get it. Available for purchase in Jan. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Fixed it:

"*The Barracuda*, (Vintage, Black,) is _expected_ to be: available, for sale, with (immediate) delivery, in (mid- to late-) January, 2019"

I'll send an invoice for this consulting service shortly


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Fixed it:
> 
> "*The Barracuda*, (Vintage, Black,) is _expected_ to be: available, for sale, with (immediate) delivery, in (mid- to late-) January, 2019"
> 
> *I'll send, an invoice, for - this (consulting) service, shortly *


*

Fixed, that for you.*


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Fixed it:
> 
> "*The Barracuda*, (Vintage, Black,) is _expected_ to be: available, for sale, with (immediate) delivery, in (mid- to late-) January, 2019"
> 
> I'll send an invoice for this consulting service shortly


hehehe... I see what you did there with the commas.

Anyway, just for the others out there...... THE BARRACUDA WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR SALE IN JAN 2019. IMMEDIATE DELIVERY EXPECTED.

Gosh. so many ways to interpret it.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The more we can make that Barracuda sentence look like 1800s marriage agreement requirements towards the bride, the better.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> The more we can make that Barracuda sentence look like 1800s marriage agreement requirements towards the bride, the better.


LOL. Seems like it!


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Doc, I must complain about your disingenuous business practices as well, and I will let the whole world know. This will not stand. 

It's been 52 days since I got my Näcken Modern Blue. It is the 10th watch in my collection. Before the Näcken, I lived a happy watch collector's life with my 9 watches being in constant rotation, each of the watches regularly getting some wrist time. I would change watches almost daily based on my mood and outfit.

Now, ever since getting the Näcken 52 days ago, I've worn the Näcken for 50 days without even thinking about the other watches in my collection. I've been neglecting my watchbox ever since. I've had two days inbetween where I forced myself to wear another watch of my stable, but the Näcken was stronger and reclaimed its place on my wrist just after two days.

It is highly irresponsible of you to conceive and sell a product like this which endangers the species of collectors by involuntarily turning them into one-watch-guys. Further, did you ever think about the feelings of the other watches of your consumers? There's 9 lovely watches that have given me so much, and now they are almost forgotten. There's nothing I can do about it, the force of the Näcken is just too strong. 

I read all your 478 messages, e-mails and cards that came with the watch, and not one single disclaimer about the potential danger this watch can create could be found.

Please stop endangering the watch collecting world by making less perfect, less affordable and less alluring watches! Otherwise I will be forced to sell you my whole collection safe for the Näcken.

BTW, when is the preorder for the Barracuda Vintage Black startin'?


----------



## sideways2 (Dec 1, 2016)

ROFL!!


----------



## sideways2 (Dec 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> The Barracuda Black was revealed today. Do you really think it's sold out already? I mean, we're good, but NOBODY'S *that* good.


BTW Doc... I`m pretty sure there are many that do think that of you!!

***I`m kissin`a$$ and taking names!!***


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I blame the Gypsies!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

jamesezra said:


> Well, commas would have made it clearer.
> 
> "The Barracuda Vintage Black is expected to be available for sale, with immediate delivery, in mid- to late-January 2019"
> 
> ...


Now i just think you're a pedant who didn't infer and missed the joke.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

hwa said:


> Glen, it's good to have you back. And I feel badly that I left our pilot off my list. @dmjonez, don't fly the coop.


Dave? Where are you?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

jamesezra said:


> hehehe... I see what you did there with the commas.
> 
> Anyway, just for the others out there...... THE BARRACUDA WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR SALE IN JAN 2019. IMMEDIATE DELIVERY EXPECTED.
> 
> Gosh. so many ways to interpret it.


Immediate delivery expected (by purchaser) but there will be some time lag between that and reality because people and USPS. Anyway, once you pay, it'll be shipped USPS, but you cannot pay until an as yet indeterminate date expected to be mid-January, because that's when it will be made available for sale.

The website, meanwhile, reads, "sold out," and that's the likely culprit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> Dave? Where are you?


Periodically, I turn off the computer and go to sleep...

Yes, I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

hwa said:


> Now i just think you're a pedant who didn't infer and missed the joke.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

I see what you mean Doc... and I feel for you.
;-)


----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Regularly scheduled program will resume after this brief watch picture...









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jamesezra said:


> Sorry boss.
> I went to re-read the mailer again.
> 
> Extract: "The Barracuda Vintage Black is expected to be available for sale with immediate delivery in mid- to late-January 2019"
> ...


No apologies necessary. I haven't died yet.

I gotta figure out how to make the new website better at conveying some info, that's for sure. The new site is way better in a lot of ways, but not when it comes to dealing with products in pre-order or various related scenarios.

The old site had options for product availability settings which included in-stock, not yet in stock but available for pre-order, not available (but not "sold out", which also allowed for a "call for price" or similar message to be displayed), and allowed us to control the text displayed on products with no inventory, so it didn't have to be "sold out".

The new site doesn't have any of that. If we create a product, and there's no inventory yet, it shows as "sold out". That's the only option. There's no way to make it visible for people to see without having it say "sold out".

We put it in the "Coming Soon" section, and put "available in January" on the product page, the category page, in the email blast, and in the social media announcements, but obviously we can't MAKE people actually read that stuff.

Clearly it's just not efficient to have to field lots of "when can we buy it/why is it sold out?" questions from everyone who just sees the images and doesn't read any of the text, no matter how prominent we try to make the relevant info.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jamesezra said:


> Well, commas would have made it clearer.
> 
> "The Barracuda Vintage Black is expected to be available for sale, with immediate delivery, in mid- to late-January 2019"
> 
> ...


It's the difference between "let's eat, grandma" and "let's eat grandma."

Product pages and "Coming Soon" page have been updated to read "This product is expected to be available for sale in mid- to late-January 2019, with immediate delivery."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

karmadrome said:


> Doc, I must complain about your disingenuous business practices as well, and I will let the whole world know. This will not stand.
> 
> It's been 52 days since I got my Näcken Modern Blue. It is the 10th watch in my collection. Before the Näcken, I lived a happy watch collector's life with my 9 watches being in constant rotation, each of the watches regularly getting some wrist time. I would change watches almost daily based on my mood and outfit.
> 
> ...


It's worse than that. It's bad for repeat business.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Now i just think you're a pedant who didn't infer and missed the joke.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All friends here, all friends, all in good fun, can't read tone in the printed word, please let's not lose sight of the haha's...


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> No apologies necessary. I haven't died yet.
> 
> I gotta figure out how to make the new website better at conveying some info, that's for sure. The new site is way better in a lot of ways, but not when it comes to dealing with products in pre-order or various related scenarios.
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> No apologies necessary. I haven't died yet.
> 
> I gotta figure out how to make the new website better at conveying some info, that's for sure. The new site is way better in a lot of ways, but not when it comes to dealing with products in pre-order or various related scenarios.
> 
> ...


How about having an image, with a banner across it saying "Not yet in stock", as the first image on your product listing?

Potential buyers can still browse through the other images to get an idea of how the product looks like.

This would allow you to control the text to be displayed, without needing to recode.

Just a suggestion.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That is a seriously sexy watch (the Barracuda vintage black that may or may not be sold out already).

Like the poster above, I'm still in love with my Nacken blue...I see me making a sale and freeing up some watch funds for the 'Cuda though. 

I'm thinking the Nacken Blue, Barracuda Vintage, and my SKX could make the perfect 3-watch combo for me. Maybe keep the CWC for those days when quartz is the call.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

mplsabdullah said:


> The barracuda vintage black
> 
> View attachment 13727151


So... no 12-hr bezel, huh...?


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> So... no 12-hr bezel, huh...?


Now you've done it.

Expect a wall of text just as soon as Chris scrapes himself off the ceiling.

Ric


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

karmadrome said:


> Doc, I must complain about your disingenuous business practices as well, and I will let the whole world know. This will not stand.
> 
> It's been 52 days since I got my Näcken Modern Blue. It is the 10th watch in my collection. Before the Näcken, I lived a happy watch collector's life with my 9 watches being in constant rotation, each of the watches regularly getting some wrist time. I would change watches almost daily based on my mood and outfit.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should ask if you can return it...?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jamesezra said:


> How about having an image, with a banner across it saying "Not yet in stock", as the first image on your product listing?
> 
> Potential buyers can still browse through the other images to get an idea of how the product looks like.
> 
> ...


That's actually not a bad idea at all.

I was just in the site trying to fiddle with the text settings. I made the text red, but only the product category page allows me to make it BIG. The text size on the product pages is locked, apparently.



mconlonx said:


> So... no 12-hr bezel, huh...?





Ric Capucho said:


> Now you've done it.
> 
> Expect a wall of text just as soon as Chris scrapes himself off the ceiling.
> 
> Ric


Don't you have an unsuspecting Swiss commuter to cripple?

He's not just going to cripple himself, you know.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> That's actually not a bad idea at all.
> 
> I was just in the site trying to fiddle with the text settings. I made the text red, but only the product category page allows me to make it BIG. The text size on the product pages is locked, apparently.


That's great.

Size doesn't matter (that's what they say), as long as the info is there when customers start to wonder.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jamesezra said:


> That's great.
> 
> Size doesn't matter (that's what they say), as long as the info is there when customers start to wonder.


We'll see. I just replaced the first image on the product pages with this:









Why do I feel like:

A. Now that this is the image seen on the product category page, some folks are going to be less likely to click through to the product page?
B. Even with as clear as I think that is, some folks are going to be confused by "immediate delivery", and forget that they just read "sales will begin in January"?

You guys see what I'm dealing with here, right? There's a small sliver of the population who have the attention span of a gnat. I'm not sure there's any way to make the info any clearer, and obvious, to the point of being un-miss-able, but now we're to the point of being counter-productive on some other front.


----------



## volthause (Oct 4, 2018)

docvail said:


> Why do I feel like:
> 
> A. Now that this is the image seen on the product category page, some folks are going to be less likely to click through to the product page?


Well, you could have overlaid that text on top of the picture of the watch.









edit: also the information about it being available immediately (once sales start) is immaterial at this point. It will be obvious once the sales start that the watches are available immediately.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> I don't have any C4, but...
> 
> *True Story* - when I was a medic with the Ranger School, I somehow got my hands on a green smoke grenade and a whole package of artillery simulators. More than 20 years later, I still have them, unopened.
> 
> ...


Lol! I had an artillery simulator once, sent to me by my brother who was in the Army at that time. I kept it around for years, because the opportunities to do something with them are few and far between.

One day we decided to take it to a relatively remote beach and get rid of it, because it seemed like a silly thing to have sitting in the garage. We got to the beach, which was about a quarter-mile long and lightly occupied, and went off to an empty area to pull the fuse on that puppy.

Everybody on the beach jumped up and looked around. We also looked around, feigning "WTF was that?!?", since we didn't want to be fingered as the perpetrators of the big noise.

It was epic, and still brings smiles when we talk about it. I'm glad we only had one!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

volthause said:


> Well, you could have overlaid that text on top of the picture of the watch.
> 
> View attachment 13729625
> 
> ...


That's a good idea, about overlaying the image.

Though I think the info about deliveries isn't unneeded, knowing the sorts of questions I get from people, who often assume we're doing pre-orders, when we're not.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Just sell the effin watches now. Tell them shipping will be immediately delayed to mid-January. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

You’re increasingly becoming indistinguishable from the schmo in Princess Bride. Dumbies are dumb. Stop spending time trying to guess what they’ll get wrong next. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

Also I would phrase it:

A) immediately available

or

B) will be shipped immediately

The wording "delivered immediately" might let some wise-a$$ think the door bell should ring seconds after payment went through. (If I get the meaning of this wrong, tell me. Not my first language )

Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Poerger said:


> Also I would phrase it:
> 
> A) immediately available
> 
> ...


Literally, you're not wrong. Though there may be some subtlety in the understanding for native English speakers.

Either way, reading the last page or two of this thread has made my left eyeball throb in pain.


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

Mom used to say "it'll be ready when it's ready"...

and Dad used to say "and you'll like it".


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> We'll see. I just replaced the first image on the product pages with this:
> 
> View attachment 13729579
> 
> ...


Better, but... Ditch the "NO XYZ / IMMEDIATE ABC" thingies. "Coming Soon" does everything you want it to convey. At most, add the "Sales begin in january 2019". That way the message conveyed is entirely positive, without any "no" statements (which may turn people off), or possibly mistaken delivery kerfuffles.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Also, you should use a different font on the "Coming Soon" text.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13729671


I cant see the effin watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

So when does the preorder start now? Y'all got me confused.


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

hwa said:


> I cant see the effin watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You actually got me spilling my drink over this. Had to literally laugh out loud there.

I'm sure Doc can't laugh about that anymore, and who could blame him for that.

That being said, can I return my Näcken now?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

That's really cool to know that the second I submit my order I will hear a knock at my door with immediate delivery. I thought Amazon was doing something with 2 day delivery but IMMEDIATE delivery is amazing.

You've won the interwebs Doc. 

PS. I hope you haven't mastered that whole Scanners type "mind kill" thing you've been working on.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> That's really cool to know that the second I submit my order I will hear a knock at my door with immediate delivery. I thought Amazon was doing something with 2 day delivery but IMMEDIATE delivery is amazing.
> 
> You've won the interwebs Doc.
> 
> PS. I hope you haven't mastered that whole Scanners type "mind kill" thing you've been working on.


Not yet, but I'm thinking I may soon tear open that package of artillery simulators...

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> I cant see the effin watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Doc can't help himself from a WoT. Even on an image overlay.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

And people think I'm crazy for wanting mind-death powers...


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

hwa said:


> I cant see the effin watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:-d


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13729671


Yup! That was what I had in mind initially.

To address issues of not being able to see the watch, the other images can still be viewed as this is only the first image.

Good job!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

karmadrome said:


> You actually got me spilling my drink over this. Had to literally laugh out loud there.
> 
> I'm sure Doc can't laugh about that anymore, and who could blame him for that.
> 
> That being said, can I return my Näcken now?


Doc and I have an understanding going way back: he does things. I aggravate him.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

jamesezra said:


> Yup! That was what I had in mind initially.
> 
> To address issues of not being able to see the watch, the other images can still be viewed as this is only the first image.
> 
> Good job!


Sycophant. Doc, I've found my foil.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13729671


And I see you did so for the Nacken Modern Blue too


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ellipsis... said:


> |> Linen Melange from C&B - I hadn't put it on the Holland before but I just put a new Erikas on the Seaforth and decided to throw the perlon on the NTH. Really like it on there.
> 
> I probably could have said the same (_I know I'm going to regret this, but..._) before my post, lol. I don't think this point is totally without merit though and I'm quite used to saying what is on my mind. If I had one quibble with what I'm seeing with the black Cuda it's just that there is not a single pure white mark on it. With the text and markings being all gilt or red and the C3 90% of the time being a creamier or greener shade I would prefer maybe a slightly cream text which be less distinct and would pair better with the lume. The same watch with C1 or BGW9 I'd say there's no issue and let's be honest it really isn't a big deal overall but it is something that would be on my wish list for my perfect NTH model.


I wish there were more watches with "gilt" date wheels, they match SO much better. Zodiac used one on the ZO9700 and it looks fantastic. I can see the argument for not using it on the much thinner font of a 6 o'clock date wheel, although it has been done. B&R I think has used color matched, vertically oriented wheels. They generally put their dates at 4:30 (but THE CORRECT WAY) but it's still the same small size as a 6 o'clock date window. Tudor did as well on the Black Shield.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

hwa said:


> Sycophant. Doc, I've found my foil.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I really hope you are just messing around here and not really mean it with the name calling.

And I hope you were reading the discussions doc and I were having.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jamesezra said:


> I really hope you are just messing around here and not really mean it with the name calling.
> 
> And I hope you were reading the discussions doc and I were having.


I am messing around. I did not read all the words you typed. Both statements are true. Don't read too much into them.

I should add: I wasn't name calling. Never met anybody named Sycophant, tho I recently learned that "ABCDE" and "1234" are in vogue.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> I am messing around. I did not read all the words you typed. Both statements are true. Don't read too much into them.
> 
> I should add: I wasn't name calling. Never met anybody named Sycophant, tho I recently learned that "ABCDE" and "1234" are in vogue.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would really want to comment about the second part of your post but I would instead, graciously thank you for clarifying through your first part.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jamesezra said:


> I would really want to comment about the second part of your post but I would instead, graciously thank you for clarifying through your first part.


Trust me on this: Whatever Andrew (hwa) says, twist it in your mind to mean as positive a thing as possible. Then back it down one notch. That's what he means, regardless of whatever shows up in print.

He's pretty funny in person, after you get a couple of beers in him. Or drink them yourself. End result is the same.


----------



## jamesezra (Mar 1, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> Trust me on this: Whatever Andrew (hwa) says, twist it in your mind to mean as positive a thing as possible. Then back it down one notch. That's what he means, regardless of whatever shows up in print.
> 
> He's pretty funny in person, after you get a couple of beers in him. Or drink them yourself. End result is the same.


Thanks for the clarification, bro. It really is hard to read behind whatever is in print but I'll take your word for it. Would gladly meet up with both of you... with drinks but that would consist of me flying 24 hours around the globe.

And for that, Im gonna have an IPA in the afternoon


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13729671


As my great great great grandpappy used to say, "There's gilt somewhere behind that there frustration."


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

92gli said:


> As my great great great grandpappy used to say, "There's gilt somewhere behind that there frustration."


As my own elders once said, "and in front of all of that, there's a wall of text."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> Trust me on this: Whatever Andrew (hwa) says, twist it in your mind to mean as positive a thing as possible. Then back it down one notch. That's what he means, regardless of whatever shows up in print.
> 
> He's pretty funny in person, after you get a couple of beers in him. Or drink them yourself. End result is the same.


Interesting algorithm. I'll have to think about whether to thank or insult you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Double refund post.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Interesting algorithm. I'll have to think about whether to thank or insult you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And either way, I'll take it in a positive light.  And look forward to the next time we can bend an elbow somewhere.

Life's too short to be annoyed at anything that doesn't draw blood. One's life view changes dramatically once someone else has fired large gauge ordinance in your direction with malicious intent. Much more personal than snarky comments in a forum, where it's impossible to register true intent without the benefit of tone and facial expression.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Phantastic. I went out of my way to give a drive-by-snark-comment, then it Was double posted, then I deleted the second post, now there are both deleted. Great. Maybe it wasn’t just as funny as i thought. 

Great watch, btw.


Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

As always, you are an officer and a gentleman.



dmjonez said:


> And either way, I'll take it in a positive light.  And look forward to the next time we can bend an elbow somewhere.
> 
> Life's too short to be annoyed at anything that doesn't draw blood. One's life view changes dramatically once someone else has fired large gauge ordinance in your direction with malicious intent. Much more personal than snarky comments in a forum, where it's impossible to register true intent without the benefit of tone and facial expression.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

A short interlude for a watch photograph.............









Ciao,

Alan


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I was just looking at a watch that is very similar in appearance to the NTH Barracuda Vintage. Call me crazy, but I think I might like the aesthetics of the NTH more; the red text and red 0/60 mark on the bezel ties the red together better than the other watch. 

My Ancon Sea Shadow II does something similar. I love the Ancon - it was my first automatic watch and my introduction to WIS - but in retrospect I wish I had gone with stainless steel silver instead of rose gold. I find that the gold just isn't as flexible for daily wear as silver.

Hence...why I believe I'm in the market for this new offering from NTH.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^^You just won our "Why are you in the market for an NTH Sub" essay contest...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just opened my Christmas gift from Sujain. The theme seems to be "A taste of Oz," I'm guessing because last year I sent him a sampler box of various Philly-made Tastykakes...










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> Just opened my Christmas gift from Sujain. The theme seems to be "A taste of Oz," I'm guessing because last year I sent him a sampler box of various Philly-made Tastykakes...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Timtams are tasty!


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Just opened my Christmas gift from Sujain. The theme seems to be "A taste of Oz," I'm guessing because last year I sent him a sampler box of various Philly-made Tastykakes...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Just opened my Christmas gift from Sujain. The theme seems to be "A taste of Oz," I'm guessing because last year I sent him a sampler box of various Philly-made Tastykakes...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oooooo...Vegemite, truly nectar of the Gods! I'm packing two full size tubs as we speak on my way to San Fran from Downunder!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

I feel like a trailblazer with the new barracuda announced


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Doc, Is the dial, on the new barracuda, the same faded black as it is on the modern black nacken or is it more glossy and deeper black, similar to another nth model?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Doc, Is the dial, on the new barracuda, the same faded black as it is on the modern black nacken or is it more glossy and deeper black, similar to another nth model?


Same as the Carolina above


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> Same as the Carolina above


Thanks!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Thanks!


BTW. It looks great irl. I haven't seen any pics that catch how good the Carolina looks in real life.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> BTW. It looks great irl. I haven't seen any pics that catch how good the Carolina looks in real life.


I read the bsht tread every now and then and actually did see the link about Carolina orders, there was 1 left when I did, but I hesitated as I am not active on that tread and was not sure how "true gilt" looks in real life.
I really like the pics of Carolina and this gilty barracuda. Also my birthday is in January. I think this one will be a hit


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I know I'm gonna regret this, but...



DuckaDiesel said:


> Doc, Is the dial, on the new barracuda, *the same faded black as it is on the modern black nacken* or is it more glossy and deeper black, similar to another nth model?


Can you clarify what you mean by the underlined part in bold?

The Modern Black dial is just "black". There's no added finish or texture, other than "matte", which I guess technically is a finish, but most people would probably just see it as a lack of finish.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I know I'm gonna regret this, but...
> 
> Can you clarify what you mean by the underlined part in bold?
> 
> The Modern Black dial is just "black". There's no added finish or texture, other than "matte", which I guess technically is a finish, but most people would probably just see it as a lack of finish.


I guess, is it going to be glossy or matte black? I dont mean fume or whatever. 
I would prefer it to be the dial with black color like it is on the sharkmaster or scorpene. But I have not seen scorpene in person and its hard to capture this on pics.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> I guess, is it going to be glossy or matte black? I dont mean fume or whatever.
> I would prefer it to be the dial with black color like it is on the sharkmaster or scorpene. But I have not seen scorpene in person and its hard to capture this on pics.


Got it.

I wish I still had my Sharkmaster so I could take a closer look at the dial, to see if it has a glossy or matte finish, or if the appearance is an effect of the crystal. I think it's just a matte dial, but sometimes AR coatings can dull the appearance of the dial, and we use two layers on the inside of the Subs' crystals. What we gain in glare reduction we may be losing in "POP!" It looks to me like the Sharkmaster has more glare, but also more "POP!"

But, the Barracuda's dial will be glossy, like enamel. And I think the gilt will be even better than on the Carolina. I noticed that with the Carolina dial, you could detect some texture in the underlying dial surface, and brought it up with my factory. I've been told we'll be getting a smoother dial finish with the Barracuda.

But, you tell me, how does it look to you?


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

I've been going to my AD the past couple of weeks to buy a BB58 but they wouldn't even take my money, even if it means I won't get a watch for several months.

I'll show them what's up once I get my hands on one of these bad boys


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Yes, brothers, the BVB will be princely!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> But, you tell me, how does it look to you?
> 
> View attachment 13733217
> 
> ...


Amazing, thank you! 
I think my Ginault had enamel dial and I loved it. That with gilt will be awesome.
I am in on the no date.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Welp... Looks like I may be working for store credit soon. [email protected] that gilt is sexy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Amazing, thank you!
> I think my Ginault had enamel dial and I loved it. That with gilt will be awesome.
> I am in on the no date.


FWIW the Carolina "pops" way more then the Ginault I had did.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> And I think the gilt will be even better than on the Carolina. I noticed that with the Carolina dial, you could detect some texture in the underlying dial surface, and brought it up with my factory. I've been told we'll be getting a smoother dial finish with the Barracuda.


I thought the Carolina dial finishing was intentional  My only criticism for its dial was the sunburst effect will make the gilt less visible in daylight. Now you fixed it, I think the Barracuda will be kick-a$$! Wished I hold off purchasing till now, but it can't beat a BSHT watch anyway!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Got it.
> 
> I wish I still had my Sharkmaster so I could take a closer look at the dial, to see if it has a glossy or matte finish, or if the appearance is an effect of the crystal. I think it's just a matte dial, but sometimes AR coatings can dull the appearance of the dial, and we use two layers on the inside of the Subs' crystals. What we gain in glare reduction we may be losing in "POP!" It looks to me like the Sharkmaster has more glare, but also more "POP!"
> 
> But, the Barracuda's dial will be glossy, like enamel. And I think the gilt will be even better than on the Carolina. I noticed that with the Carolina dial, you could detect some texture in the underlying dial surface, and brought it up with my factory. I've been told we'll be getting a smoother dial finish with the Barracuda.


WOW. These look amazing, brilliant work Doc. I was on the fence on a Carolina, but wasn't quite sold on that handset. With the snowflakes though....... I've been saving up for a Zodiac ZO9271 for awhile, but I may have to back burner it in favor of a gilt 'Cuda in the near term. It's ok to have two black dress divers, right?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Forever8895 said:


> I thought the Carolina dial finishing was intentional  My only criticism for its dial was the sunburst effect will make the gilt less visible in daylight. Now you fixed it, I think the Barracuda will be kick-a$$! Wished I hold off purchasing till now, but it can't beat a BSHT watch anyway!


I wasn't referring to anything regarding the black surface. What I was talking about was the gilt surface, wherein we could see what looked like a bit of brushing. You can see it in your avatar.

The black surface is (I think) just glossy black, and any impression of a texture to it may be an effect of the light bouncing off it.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

FWIW, I actually like the brush effect. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> FWIW, I actually like the brush effect.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


You're weird.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> You're weird.


Haha, maybe I'm the only one...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

You aren't. I was going to 'like' your post Dave but I saw what doc posted and thought I'd lay low awhile... but, nah, I kinda like the brushed look too too. Maybe this dial is enough different to buy a gilt'cuda too?

"No Honey, this one is really different."



Disneydave said:


> Haha, maybe I'm the only one...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

househalfman said:


> I've been going to my AD the past couple of weeks to buy a BB58 but they wouldn't even take my money, even if it means I won't get a watch for several months.
> 
> I'll show them what's up once I get my hands on one of these bad boys


I made the journey from Rattlesnake Junction into the big city specifically to see the AD and determine which OP I was going to buy. Not in stock. But I want to give you thousands of dollars! Sorry. Don't know when. Don't have a list. *sigh*

So I *know* I can buy a gilty-cuda in January...


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

A couple different shades of the Renegade.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just because gilt. No BSHT, no Näcken.


[url=https://ratbob.smugmug.com/Watches/WOTD-2018-4/i-rPP7BZj/A]


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

BillHW said:


> "No Honey, this one is really different."


"They all look the same to me." - Mrs Rusty

"Watchist!" - Me

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> Just because gilt. No BSHT, no Näcken.
> 
> 
> [url=https://ratbob.smugmug.com/Watches/WOTD-2018-4/i-rPP7BZj/A]


Great looking watch however the process and end result for the Carolina and newly announced Barracuda are very different then the watch you posted. Really have to see it in person to get the full feel of it.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Skipjack today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> I wish there were more watches with "gilt" date wheels, they match SO much better. Zodiac used one on the ZO9700 and it looks fantastic. I can see the argument for not using it on the much thinner font of a 6 o'clock date wheel, although it has been done. B&R I think has used color matched, vertically oriented wheels. They generally put their dates at 4:30 (but THE CORRECT WAY) but it's still the same small size as a 6 o'clock date window. Tudor did as well on the Black Shield.


GILT RELIEF DATE WHEEL!!!!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

Not a clean shot but still gobsmacked by the lume on these things.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hey, congrats doc - the textured dial finish you came up with has not even been co-opted by the _haute horlogerie_ brands: https://www.ablogtowatch.com/hermes-arceau-78-watch/ .


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

If you've ever met Doc in person, you'll know exactly how hilarious it is to imagine him wearing a Hermes. Herpes? Way more likely.



X2-Elijah said:


> Hey, congrats doc - the textured dial finish you came up with has not even been co-opted by the _haute horlogerie_ brands: https://www.ablogtowatch.com/hermes-arceau-78-watch/ .


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Speaking of the Carolina - sale price on the Tudor Black Bay "One Watch" was $375K. The next time someone complains about your watches costing too much Doc, tell them that.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Speaking of the Carolina - sale price on the Tudor Black Bay "One Watch" was $375K. The next time someone complains about your watches costing too much Doc, tell them that.


And it didn't even have fitted end-links.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Non-fitted end-links is the new big trend of 2019. Very big, very huge. The best trend.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hey, congrats doc - the textured dial finish you came up with has not even been co-opted by the _haute horlogerie_ brands: https://www.ablogtowatch.com/hermes-arceau-78-watch/ .


Now he needs to return the favor with a new sub with upside down numbers.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

A man could buy a lot of Invictas for $375k... on sale of course, not MSRP.


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Merry christmas everyone! I got a beautiful suede leather strap, handmade from my significant other. She also made a watch roll for me. So stoked!


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

karmadrome said:


> Merry christmas everyone! I got a beautiful suede leather strap, handmade from my significant other. She also made a watch roll for me. So stoked!


Made those for you?
That is amazing. What a wonderful and thoughtful gift!


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

karmadrome said:


> Merry christmas everyone! I got a beautiful suede leather strap, handmade from my significant other. She also made a watch roll for me. So stoked!


Very nice, she sounds like a keeper. 
My wife makes beaded necklaces. This pattern is called a Russian spiral, similar to the DNA double helix. She likes Navy themed watches because her dad was in the USN. On top of that she is a certified technologist in molecular biology, working with DNA.








The manlier versions she made for me.








Merry Christmas to all.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Ratfacedgit said:


> Very nice, she sounds like a keeper.
> My wife makes beaded necklaces. This pattern is called a Russian spiral, similar to the DNA double helix. She likes Navy themed watches because her dad was in the USN. On top of that she is a certified technologist in molecular biology, working with DNA.
> View attachment 13745355
> 
> ...


Nice Raketa sun/moon. Fun.

Merry Cheistmas, all.

Ric


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Unfortunately I don't have a cool "significant other watch gift" story this morning. But this opinionated guy in Philly made me this.










Merry Xmas guys/Doc.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

ck2k01 said:


> Unfortunately I don't have a cool "significant other watch gift" story this morning. But this opinionated guy in Philly made me this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He made this for me.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

That guy! He made this one for himself, then passed it on to me. Of course it wasn't this dusty when he did.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> Merry Cheistmas, all.


Innit?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Merry Christmas guys.

Sorry I've been less connected the last few days to a week. The holidays kind of crept up on me, and I've been wrapped up in family stuff.

Looking forward to virtually hanging out with you all in the new year.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Merry Christmas guys.
> 
> Sorry I've been less connected the last few days to a week. *The holidays kind of crept up on me*, and I've been wrapped up in family stuff.
> 
> Looking forward to virtually hanging out with you all in the new year.


*As much as something which involves 24/7 (mostly bad) music, in-your-face decorations, and my wife watching saccharine movies nonstop on the Hallmark channel can creep up on you...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Merry Christmas errybody









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Merry Christmas all


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

92gli said:


> I think the end links on these look to be the right shape. Listing doesn't say they taper to 16mm, but I have not seen an 18mm glide clasp so they must. I'm ordering one now, I'll post results when I get it. I like the nth bracelet but I'm spoiled by this clasp (have one on my steinhart).
> https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...l?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.38.6b0e2505ekxrao





Omegafanboy said:


> To be honest I had no idea if it would fit but they are so cheap that I thought why not! I have plenty of 20mm watches so if it did not fit on one it would probably fit another. I actually have one of the Oysters on my Seaforth as well (it's a hell of a lot cheaper than the Ginault everyone is buying!!!!)
> 
> I think it was this one I bought. It has a simple single fold over extension .
> 
> ...


FYI - That oyster bracelet from seller "carlywet" arrived saturday. End link shape mates well with the NTH case but the holes don't line up. Not even close, not any closer with bent springbars. I wasted a few hours yesterday trying to ovalize the holes and trim the end links. Got one right; ruined the other - I filed too much off the little shelf at the bottom of the endlink and it could spin away from the case once I got it mounted. Kept the clasp for my incoming Silver and threw the rest away. Oh well.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Skipjack on Barton canvas








Any photos of a sub on isofrane type strap? Wondering if this case is too thin to pull off a strap that thick.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

92gli said:


> Skipjack on Barton canvas
> View attachment 13748309
> 
> 
> Any photos of a sub on isofrane type strap? Wondering if this case is too thin to pull off a strap that thick.


Man, I've been eyeing a seamaster 2254, but the skipjack is hitting all the right buttons!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Skipjack on Barton canvas
> View attachment 13748309
> 
> 
> Any photos of a sub on isofrane type strap? Wondering if this case is too thin to pull off a strap that thick.


Those Barton straps seem very nice, and seem to be catching on with a lot of folks. Good on those guys at Barton.

I don't recall seeing a sub on isofrane. Do they make that style in 20mm? The rubber straps we used to sell were from the same manufacturer, though a different style, and I think somewhat thinner.

I've never really understood the appeal of the isofranes. I get that the abundance of tang holes adds a lot of adjustability, but I've not needed it, I like a strap to taper, and the thickness of those puts me off.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Happy leftovers and naps day. Neville is picking the latter at the mo'...










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Man, I've been eyeing a seamaster 2254, but the skipjack is hitting all the right buttons!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Better get a Skipjack while you can. All our resellers are low on inventory, and we didn't slot any more of them into the next production round, due in April/May. We may or may not make more in the batch after that, which I'd like to have done by mid-summer.

We've got the next ~600 pieces in production already. Most of that batch will be more of existing designs which have been sold out a while. There will be at least four, possibly as many as six new designs included though.

We'll be sending out a preview of what's coming early in the new year. Stay tuned...

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Those Barton straps seem very nice, and seem to be catching on with a lot of folks. Good on those guys at Barton.
> 
> I don't recall seeing a sub on isofrane. Do they make that style in 20mm? The rubber straps we used to sell were from the same manufacturer, though a different style, and I think somewhat thinner.
> 
> ...


Isofrane and all the copies come in 20mm. And you hit the nail on the head - it's all about the very closely spaced tang holes for me. Love that. Also, all the holes gives you great breathability when it's hot. They're so damn comfy.

One of the copies is a little thicker than an isofrane and another is a little thinner. I want to get one of the slightly thinner ones when they are back in stock.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Isofrane and all the copies come in 20mm. And you hit the nail on the head - it's all about the very closely spaced tang holes for me. Love that. Also, all the holes gives you great breathability when it's hot. They're so damn comfy.
> 
> One of the copies is a little thicker than an isofrane and another is a little thinner. I want to get one of the slightly thinner ones when they are back in stock.


I think part of it for me is that I'm not even a strap guy, much less a strap-changer. The benefits of an Isofrane are mostly lost on me, since I'm just not into straps. Most of the watches in my current collection are on their bracelets. I've come to realize, I'm a bracelet guy.

The two Seikos I have are on straps because I didn't feel like screwing around with their bracelets, also because the stock Seiko rubber and the Crafter Blue strap I have are nice/comfortable (not that I wear either of them very often), and since I knew I'd eventually sell them, I figured it'd be best for their resale value to leave the bracelets wrapped up and pristine.

I've got one DevilRay on a rubber strap, and three other pieces on NATOs. The only reason they're not all on their bracelets is because I'm lazy/hate trying to get bracelets back onto their cases once I take the bracelet off.

I hate screwing with strap changes and bracelet-re-attachment so much that I've been giving away the straps on the pieces I've sold from my personal collection. I just put the bracelet and the spare links in the box, along with the watch, on whatever strap is attached to it, and send it off.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*










Took the BSHT NTH Carolina on my family's winter break vacation. Here's a couple of snapshots. Absolutely fantastic watch.

Happy new year, fellas.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I sooooo want to quote that post just to make everyone lurking in this thread scroll through a wall of pics.

But I won't.

All you lazy post-quoters, take note. That's not cool, bros.


----------



## LogisticsCzar (Jun 23, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Elbakalao said:


> Took the BSHT NTH Carolina on my family's winter break vacation. Here's a couple of snapshots. Absolutely fantastic watch.
> 
> Happy new year, fellas.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll do it Doc. This jubilee whoamamma! Carolina really pops on it. Scroll on...

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Elbakalao said:


> Took the BSHT NTH Carolina on my family's winter break vacation. Here's a couple of snapshots. Absolutely fantastic watch.
> 
> Happy new year, fellas.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What's not cool?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



LogisticsCzar said:


> I'll do it Doc. This jubilee whoamamma! Carolina really pops on it. Scroll on...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


Ahahahahahah! Great minds!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Elbakalao said:


> Ahahahahahah! Great minds!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My dad sometimes lurks in these threads, just to catch up on whatever I've been up to lately. He's going to lose his $hlt when he gets to the last two pages...

I'm not saying you guys need to edit your posts. I'm just sayin' you guys ain't helping my Dad see this place as less of a giant waste of everyone's time.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'm just sayin' you guys ain't helping my Dad see this place as less of a giant waste of everyone's time.


I thought wasting time was the entire point of this hobby.


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My dad sometimes lurks in these threads, just to catch up on whatever I've been up to lately. He's going to lose his $hlt when he gets to the last two pages...
> 
> I'm not saying you guys need to edit your posts. I'm just sayin' you guys ain't helping my Dad see this place as less of a giant waste of everyone's time.


Chill bro. Tell your dad I've already bought four of your watches. He'll be alright.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Elbakalao said:


> Chill bro. Tell your dad I've already bought four of your watches. He'll be alright.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think he thinks you're all nuts, but he's happy for me that there are people who like what I do.

FWIW, he was very keen to see a Carolina up close, after seeing pics of it online. He thinks it's a really good-looking design. I had to disappoint him because I'd already shipped them all, but I'm hoping the timing works out so he can see one of the new Barracudas with the gilt dials.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Dear Doc Sr.,

I like your son’s watches. I’ve owned 6 of them, that I can remember. You should be proud. 

Sincerely,

Chris


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I think part of it for me is that I'm not even a strap guy, much less a strap-changer. The benefits of an Isofrane are mostly lost on me, since I'm just not into straps. Most of the watches in my current collection are on their bracelets. I've come to realize, I'm a bracelet guy.
> 
> The two Seikos I have are on straps because I didn't feel like screwing around with their bracelets, also because the stock Seiko rubber and the Crafter Blue strap I have are nice/comfortable (not that I wear either of them very often), and since I knew I'd eventually sell them, I figured it'd be best for their resale value to leave the bracelets wrapped up and pristine.
> 
> ...


Straps are the best! I'm the total opposite - when I buy a new watch I take the bracelet off immediately after taking it out of the box, never to be reattached unless the watch is getting sold to someone else. Bracelets are a giant PITA. I have no patience for sizing pin-in-collar types, so I have to take the stupid thing down to Alex & Co. and have them do it. Try it, take a half link out, try it again, put that half link back in, maybe take it back out, let's try it out but with the clasp on the next micro adjustment hole. I'm sure they love me. Well, they certainly do now because I don't make them do it anymore.

Then there's the fact that some watches just come with crap bracelets - things like no half links and maybe a butterfly style clasp with no adjustment holes at all. Bracelets also increase the weight of a watch by 50%+, and they slip when it gets cold, and can get uncomfortable when it's really warm. And don't even get me started on how terrible clasps can look when they're covered in desk diving scratches.

Straps solve _all_ of those problems. If I don't like the factory punched holes, and I often don't, I can just punch a few new ones myself in a matter of seconds. No taking the watch anywhere. I already have a small collection of 20mm and 22mm straps, so when I buy new watches I don't even need to think about what it comes with: half links or no, butterfly, deployant with holes, or maybe a ratcheting adjustment, none of it matters. Bracelet comes off, existing strap which I've already worn and I already know is comfortable and fits my wrist goes on. All of my straps have QR spring bars, so I can change leather colors/types or swap on a silicone for swimming or when I'll be wearing sunscreen in about 5 seconds.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I like em both, usually, but generally I prefer straps (good ones) over bracelets. (Good ones).

Mainly due to comfort over a longer period of time. Basically, I find that my wrist does swell up/down a bit during a day, mostly depending on temperature, exertion and/or stress.

Bracelets are kinda ill-suited for this, I often find that they get either too tight or too loose during the day - they have no capacity to autoadjust. Straps have an inherent (slight) stretch to them, if they are of good leather. But mostly, straps tend to be grippier on the inside lining, so I don't have to wear them as tight to get a nice stable hold on the wrist. A bracelet worn that loose would slide like crazy, whereas a strap gets the watch to stay in place. 

Though it has to a be a good strap. So so many straps fall into one of two horrible categories - either the filler/padding is stupidly rigid so the strap pinches the sides of the wrist (boooo), or the leather used is ****e and the strap therefore feels ****e too (booo).

If there was a good aftermarket bracelet (with fitting endlinks) that had, idk, some spring mechanism that autostretched as needed, I'd honestly pay $$$ for it. As long as it ain't no clacky ratchety nonsense. I don't want to adjust how my watch fits during the day, I want it to make any and all adjustments by itself. If it gets uncomfortable enough that I have to start fiddling with a ratchet or whatever, it's already failed.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Speaking of straps, for the price these Barton elite silicons are great.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> I thought wasting time was the entire point of this hobby.


Perhaps tongue in cheek, perhaps not, but ironic wisdom nonetheless.

I forget what got me thinking about it, but I was recently reflecting on how much anxiety so many people engaged in this hobby seem to feel, when considering a purchase, or regretting one, or struggling with the decision to buy something affordable versus saving up for something less so. The arguments on this forum and elsewhere certainly make it seem like some people aren't exactly enjoying themselves. If someone enjoys the arguments or simply trolling, I feel sad for them.

It frequently helps me relax a bit to remind myself this is just a hobby, something which ought to be a pleasing distraction from the daily grind. My purpose is to sell something which gives customers some enjoyment. The drama and nonsense are just background noise, to be ignored as much as possible.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> I thought wasting time was the entire point of this hobby.


Well, there's also the wasting money aspect...


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

basso4735 said:


> Speaking of straps, for the price these Barton elite silicons are great.


Yes they are. Only weakness is that they get "polished" in high wear areas fairly quickly.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> I like em both, usually, but generally I prefer straps (good ones) over bracelets. (Good ones).
> 
> Mainly due to comfort over a longer period of time. Basically, I find that my wrist does swell up/down a bit during a day, mostly depending on temperature, exertion and/or stress.
> 
> ...


Overly stiff leather straps often just need break-in. My leather straps are all Chris Wards because they're literally the only ones I've been able to find that are well made, reasonably priced, come from the factory with QR bars, and are available in XS length. I was able to convert a ColaReb to QR by doing surgery on it, but I'd rather not have to do that. The CW straps vary quite a bit in stiffness out of the box depending on what kind of leather it is. The Torro Brava straps are the most pliable and are basically ready to wear straight away. The Oak and Vintage Oak need a bit of break-in first, and the Shell Cordovans are by far the stiffest and need a lot of break-in. Rather than wait through days of wear for them to start to be comfortable, I just put them on a watch not on my wrist, and squeeze it like a stress ball. 10-15 minutes of that and even the Shell Cordovans are good to go.

The one bracelet that I know of that's like that is what Zodiac has on the Sea Wolf 53. It's a butterfly with a spring loaded mechanism that stretches on either side of the clasp on its own. Quite clever. They're fitted for Zodiacs though of course so who knows what else they might fit, and Zodiac doesn't sell their bracelets aftermarket at all, even if you want one for say a Sea Wolf model that comes with a leather NATO or a canvas strap. You're still SOL.


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

"The drama and nonsense are just background noise, to be ignored as much as possible."

hmmm... might have to borrow that to add to my signature.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

That is really poor advice when you're going to the movies or theatre plays, mind.


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

We'll just have to assume most folks can discern the when and where ;-)


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Ragl said:


> Very well caught Sir..........
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


That Barracuda blue is dazzling. I think Doc could probably get away with just making Barracudas and Näckens in a range of colors and the watches would sell themselves.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)




----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

HNY, everybody!


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Again and again I keep putting the Nacken on in the morning. This really can be a "one watch".


----------



## Darthtavion75 (Dec 26, 2018)

*HNY, everybody!*

Mikey T, I bought an Orthos Commander on the forum like the one in your pic only today...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: HNY, everybody!*



Darthtavion75 said:


> Mikey T, I bought an Orthos Commander on the forum like the one in your pic only today...


Congrats! There are a few around, but only a few.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

*Re: HNY, everybody!*



MikeyT said:


> Congrats! There are a few around, but only a few.


Yeah, I think many of the folks that purchased them originally liked them enough to hold on to them.

I don't plan on ever parting with mine.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

So... I have a NTH Antilles (white) coming my way. Super psyched. Especially since it has a 12hr bezel. For some reason, it lacks the original BoR bracelet. Anyone holding, looking to part with one? Failing that, recommendations for aftermarket bracelet with endlinks that might fit correct?


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: HNY, everybody!*



Agent Sands said:


> Yeah, I think many of the folks that purchased them originally liked them enough to hold on to them.
> 
> I don't plan on ever parting with mine.


Nor do I ever expect to let mine go. That one is in my "never sell, never trade" box, along side my Amphion Dark Gilt.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> So... I have a NTH Antilles (white) coming my way. Super psyched. Especially since it has a 12hr bezel. For some reason, it lacks the original BoR bracelet. Anyone holding, looking to part with one? Failing that, recommendations for aftermarket bracelet with endlinks that might fit correct?


Any idea what happened to the bracelet? I'm perplexed.

EDIT/PS - the short answer to your Q - I don't have any recommendation.

The long answer - matching end-links on an after-market bracelet to a case the bracelet wasn't designed for is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You're trying to find the right combination of link thickness, link shape, and lug-hole position.

More often than not, when there's a solid end-link, there's a lip on the link that fits with a slot on the underside of the case.

Your best bet is likely to be an aftermarket bracelet with folded/hollow end-links, and it will likely require a good bit of trial-and-error to get something that still isn't as good a fit as the stock bracelet.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Any idea what happened to the bracelet? I'm perplexed.
> 
> EDIT/PS - the short answer to your Q - I don't have any recommendation.
> 
> ...


Best bet is something with straight ends. E.g.: https://www.ebay.com/itm/20mm-Beads...-Bracelet-for-Vintage-Watch-BOR-/183507459332


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Any idea what happened to the bracelet? I'm perplexed.
> 
> EDIT/PS - the short answer to your Q - I don't have any recommendation.
> 
> ...


You can find straight end BoR bracelets on the 'bay. E.g., https://www.ebay.com/itm/20mm-Beads...-Bracelet-for-Vintage-Watch-BOR-/183507459332


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Best bet is something with straight ends. E.g.: https://www.ebay.com/itm/20mm-Beads...-Bracelet-for-Vintage-Watch-BOR-/183507459332


That's certainly one alternative, and comes with the benefit of not having to screw around trying to bend folded links into shape.

But a lot of guys don't like the straight-link-on-a-curved-case look. I don't blame them. I'm not a fan, either.

There was a time when I would order extra bracelets with a new production, but I quickly realized people weren't buying them, so I stopped ordering so many. Now we just get maybe 1% extra on all parts, and as soon as we're satisfied that we don't need any of those parts to fix defects, we assemble them into watches for sale. We did that, like, almost a year ago now. I'm out of extra Tropics bracelets.

That's why it kills me to read that some wingnut out there is sitting on a bracelet for a watch he sold. Who does that? How does that happen? I've got watches and parts all over my office, which on any given day looks like a tornado hit it, and it still wouldn't take me more than 2 minutes to find the bracelets to go with every watch that came with one but is now on a strap.

That "don't know what I did with it" excuse gives me Forest Whitaker eye.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Ew, eye bleach needed.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Probably the guy selling a watch without the bracelet has lost and/or mangled something on said bracelet. Maybe snapped clasp or something. Maybe fell into the laundry basket and got stuck in some washing machine.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Probably the guy selling a watch without the bracelet has lost and/or mangled something on said bracelet. Maybe snapped clasp or something. Maybe fell into the laundry basket and got stuck in some washing machine.


Sounds like someone might know what happened to the bracelet!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Sounds like someone might know what happened to the bracelet!


Well, since I'm in no way involved in that sale nor have ever had an NTH Tropic watch... No.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> But a lot of guys don't like the straight-link-on-a-curved-case look. I don't blame them. I'm not a fan, either.


On most pieces, it seems awkward and incongruous. The few times when I've thought it works has been on cases with those thin, extended vintage-style lugs with an equally vintage-flavored bracelet.

The Omega Hour Vision barely gets away with it by slightly curving the end-link. I'm surprised more aftermarket bracelet manufacturers haven't tried something similar:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

My local "real" watchmaker, Peter Whittle (WHITTLE'S WATCH WORKS ? EXPERT WATCH REPAIR) always seems to have a watch with a weird story whenever I go in there, which is about once a month, whether I need to or not.

His shop is right across from my Post Office, so I'm in the neighborhood at least once a week. Recall a couple months back he showed me the "Hamilton brothers", with that one piece using the Heuer micro-rotor chrono movement.

Today I actually needed to be there, because I just inherited another vintage piece, a rare Columbia watch company railroad pocket watch, a 7-jewel piece produced sometime between 1898 and 1901. It apparently belonged to my great-grandfather on my mother's side, but that's another story.










It's missing the crystal, the hands are bent, and the balance is broken, so it needs a good rehab. It's not really worth anything, because apparently there's just no market for them, but it was my great-grandfather's, so I'm having him restore it.

As he's digging around for a reference book to look up the Columbia, I spot the profile of a dual-crown piece on his workbench, which reminded me of the Aevig Balaur, so I asked what it was.

"Oh, I gotta show you this..."

I knew I was in for a story. He opens the case-back, and hands me a loupe as he starts to talk.

It was a Girard Perregaux automatic alarm. At normal viewing distance, without the loupe, it looked 100% legit, and "impressive", in the way we all seem to be automatically impressed by blued screws, pearlage, côtes de Genève, etc.

My first thought, "is it fake?" And if it was, from where? China? Russia?

Faking a three-hand watch is easy enough. Lots of 3-hand movements to choose from. Even a GMT, no big deal. But you start getting into chronos, perpetuals, moon-phases, and alarm movements, it starts to get harder to do.

"Well, that was my first thought. When I opened it, I actually called the guy to say I was certain it was a fake, but he said he'd had it serviced by GP once already..."

"So, what made you think it was fake?"

His first clue was the abundance of blued screws. Apparently the Swiss luxury brands don't usually use so many, because it's gaudy. Upon closer inspection, it became obvious that they weren't heat-blued.

Heat-blued parts often look black until they catch the light and you see the glint of blue. These clearly weren't heat-blued. Worse, only the top-surfaces of the screws were blued, either with paint or plating, but even that was poorly done.

Simply tilting the movement, you could see the uneven line where the bluing stopped around the head of the screws. I'm not the guy who puts everything under a loupe and scrutinizes, looking for flaws, but even to me, this was sad to see. It reminded me of seeing painted panels on outlets and light switches, the true sign of zero-f**ks among interior painters.

From there, under the loupe, it was a mess - the pearlage was sloppy, the bridges appeared to be plated, and the plating was rubbing off to show what looked like brass underneath, there were tool marks where there shouldn't be any, the edges of the bridges were rough, the gear-teeth were rough, etc, etc, etc.

It was good enough to fool a layman, at a glance, without a loupe, but anyone who knows what a quality movement looks like under the loupe would be heart-broken.

"So, what is it? Chinese? Russian? Who do you think made this thing?"

"That's the thing - I think it was made by GP."

"Dafuq? I don't understand".

"This looks like Chinese quality, but I think GP paid a company like Sea-gull to make this for them."

"Holy $hlt."

"Yep. I mean, look at that, It's crap workmanship, but at the same time, the rest looks legit, the numbers match, they serviced it, and it's not obviously a Chinese or Russian calibre. Someone went to enough trouble to make it look presentable as 'Swiss', more than you'd typically see with fakes."

He started to go off on a rant about how the industry is starting to go down the tubes with stuff like this, how the new Tissot for $600+ has the unserviceable (and I assume, $hltty, in his opinion) Sistem 51 movement, and who knows what else he was about to say, but a couple customers came in and brought the rant to a halt. One of the customers was super-annoying, so I left before we got to pick up the conversation again.

I guess luxury ain't what it used to be.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Whoa.

Reminds me of that recent controversy when Cartier was caught using cheap plastic retaining rings in their watches.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Adding to the above, and for whatever it's worth, I'm not just throwing the luxury Swiss brands under the bus.

Without naming names, I'm reminded of another story I recently heard...

A recently-launched, not all that affordable microbrand seemed to go through some changes recently. In particular, I noticed the people involved seemed to have a parting of the ways with one particular individual, someone known to many of my peers for being treacherous in his business dealings. 

Some of the people involved with the brand had publicly thrown other micros under the bus, so I was keen to understand what had transpired.

I asked around, what happened?

This guy's modus operandi is to approach startup micros, and pitch them on the idea that he can be their guide through the byzantine world of getting a watch made. He'll help with all phases, from design to delivery, all done through his long-standing and deep partnerships with manufacturers in Switzerland. 

Meanwhile, he dishes the work off on Chinese factories, not even the best ones (not by far), marks their costs up 60% (or more, as appears to be the case in this instance), and pockets the difference.

It seems every company he deals with struggles to overcome the disadvantages inherent in doing business with him, and it's a surprisingly long list, with a number of names many here would surely know. I can tell you in no uncertain terms that a 60% increase in production costs, in exchange for design support and someone overseeing production is NOT feasible, at all, and completely destroys the economics of this business.

In some, if not many cases, he's having the Chinese suppliers mark the dials "Swiss Made", in total violation of the Swiss Made rules, even as lax as they are. In this case, that's exactly what happened. 

If his normal markup on production is 60%, and judging by the brand's retail pricing, my guess is he at least doubled the true production costs by claiming the watches were "Swiss Made".

And, to add insult to injury, apparently he wasn't satisfied with making at least 60% commission on production costs, completely risk-free, for just a few days' work. He contracted to have more pieces made than was agreed upon, and sold the un-branded clones on another website, at a deep discount to the brand he was supposed to be helping, denying any connection to the site selling the unbranded pieces.

When the brand went around him to contact the "Swiss" manufacturer they thought they'd been using, to determine how clones of their watches were up for sale within days of them taking delivery of their own inventory, the manufacturer had never heard of them, their brand, or the fellow who was supposedly acting as their go-between. It was then that the illusion started to unravel for them. It became obvious he was skimming a lot off the top, and under-selling them out the back.

Now, I know that WIS tend to be a bit jaded about the stuff coming out of China, but I have to say, I've yet to encounter any Chinese vendor who gave even a hint that they'd be willing to mark watches as "Swiss Made" if they weren't. 

Not that I ever wanted to have that done, but I've certainly asked suppliers if they knew of it being done, simply because I'm naturally skeptical, and figured it would be easy enough to do. All the suppliers I asked told me they would never do it, because it's dicey, due to the inspections being done before export, as well as the random surprise on-site inspections by Chinese government officials at factories. The penalties for being caught producing counterfeit goods are hefty.

No one wants to pay the fines or have their stuff confiscated, when there are tens of thousands of dollars in play. Why screw around being sneaky when there's plenty of money to be made doing things above-board?

You actually have to put some energy into searching out the vendors who'll do it, and it apparently takes some arm-twisting to get them to do it. You have to be dealing with some desperate, shady vendors to have that done, and they in turn need to be exploiting flaws in the system in order to export.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Ooooooo intrigue.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheJohnP said:


> Ooooooo intrigue.


You have no idea. If I named names, and revealed all I've learned and been told about the clown-college BS that goes on in this business, people wouldn't believe me. Lately I've been feeling like the thin, gilded veneer of the industry is disappearing as I'm watching.

Over the last week, I've been watching some drama unfold with another brand, also one who dealt with the guy described above, and, of course, despite the brand's over-the-top claims of cutting-edge Swiss watchmaking wizardry, the craptastic watches are clearly craptastic, and falling apart, with no support to be had from the brand. Other than the occasional post on Facebook, they appear to have gone into hiding.

The irate customers are posting pics of the watches online, and the signs of low-end manufacturing are painfully obvious. It's like watching a budget car company reveal a stunning design at the big car show, but then you see one going down the road with faded paint and the trim falling off the sides.

I know even some of my friends take some of the stories with a grain of salt, and for sure some folks already don't believe me, but at least if I avoid giving away too many details I don't have to prove anything I'm saying, which is convenient, since a lot of it isn't provable, even though it's clearly true. I see how emotionally invested some people are in some brands, and I don't need them calling for my head on a spike.


----------



## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

hwa said:


> Best bet is something with straight ends. E.g.: https://www.ebay.com/itm/20mm-Beads...-Bracelet-for-Vintage-Watch-BOR-/183507459332


Geckota has more affordable one as well. Good quality and code 'watchuseek' will get you 10% off. Link


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tanker G1 said:


> Geckota has more affordable one as well. Good quality and code 'watchuseek' will get you 10% off. Link


Knew I'd seen one somewhere for less! Thanks for posting that.

https://www.watchgecko.com/beads-of-rice-by-geckota.php

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Damn.

So basically, with microbrands, there's no guarantee that "Swiss Made" is even legit... 
Yeah that's gonna knock off a lot of the "microbrand veneer" for sure.

Jeeeeeeez this is wild. Unfortunately I have some suspicion about which brand might also be involved in this, but imma stay silent on that, I think there's atually a lot of support on these forums for some of the folks involved. OR I COULD BE WRONG YKNOW.

Edit: wait hang on, couldn't this legitimately be sent to a court? I mean, if you as a microbrand/business have a (middleman)supplier claiming to provide swiss-made watches (which they aren't) from a swiss manufacturer (nope) - isn't that legally problematic?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Whoa.
> 
> Reminds me of that recent controversy when Cartier was caught using cheap plastic retaining rings in their watches.


There was a thread in the public forum, not long ago, started by someone who opened up a Tag Aquaracer to see inside, and was critical of the stock Sellita movement and plastic movement holder, going on to say the the widespread WIS loathing of Tag is entirely justified.

I was surprised how many people came to Tag's defense. Particularly surprising was to see how many people said the spacer wasn't "plastic", it was "Teflon", making it out to be a feature, not a bug. They pointed out that it's anti-magnetic, and a good shock-absorber.

Uhm...

The second watch we made, the Acionna, had what appears to be an identical movement holder. Teflon is a synthetic - read: "man-made" - material, I believe petroleum-based, which is to say, it's plastic. Teflon is just a brand-name for a particular kind of plastic. Insisting that it's totally different is semantic hair-splitting.

Is it anti-magnetic? Well, it's not metal, so it can't be magnetized, but neither can the brass movement spacers we use, since brass is a non-magnetic metal. Not that I'm bragging on our "anti-magnetic" properties, since, counter-intuitively, non-magnetic metals don't make good magnetic shields.

What you actually want is a magnetic metal in your shielding, not a non-magnetic metal. But even at that, a non-magnetic metal is going to make a better magnetic shield than a plastic ring, for whatever it's worth.

Is it a shock-protection measure? Meh, not in my mind, it isn't. The movements have shock-protection built into them. Even if the plastic spacer has some flex in it, and they typically do, the motion of the movement is still going to be limited by the dial and crown fixing it in place. I don't see how the plastic movement spacer is going to do much for you.

I can imagine some impacts/angles where you'd be better off with a metal spacer, if it keeps the movement fixed with the dial. If the movement shifts around, but the dial can't, what's to stop the dial feet from being sheared off?

I had a few people complain about the dials of the Acionna shifting around when pushing the crowns in. That was from the flex in the ring. They'd all sit correctly once the crown was screwed down, but people saw it as a sign of cheapness. A handful of them weren't correctly secured in place (we found one installed upside-down), and had some "bounce" in them, causing an intermittent clicking noise, which didn't help.

I was embarrassed, and from then on, I made it a point to confirm we'd always use metal spacers, not plastic, over my old factory's insistence that there was nothing "wrong" with a plastic spacer. I didn't care what the factory said. I knew I'd catch hell from watch-geeks for using a plastic spacer, so I told them to cut the $hlt, and use metal spacers from then on.

It's that sort of $hlt that drives me up the wall about this hobby. If a microbrand uses a plastic spacer, it's cheap, plastic, crappy quality, a rip-off, amateurish, Chinese, blah, blah, blah. Tag Heuer does it, it's teflon, it's shock-protection, it's anti-magnetic, blah, blah, blah.

Honestly, I don't give a crap if Tag uses a plastic spacer. If the watch is nice enough otherwise, who cares? I just want to see some consistency in logic and discussion.

Don't come at me with this "I can get the same components for less" baloney or that "better value from the big brands" nonsense unless and until you've handled a few thousand watches, and you've seen behind the curtain of this business. Most people are buying a story, but don't realize it. It's a confidence game being run on them.

We've got well-known brands using NOS movements without rebuilding them. Rather than tearing the movements down, cleaning and re-lubricating them, the company's just testing them on timegraphers, then casing those which test okay. Then they start misbehaving before they're even halfway to their service interval.

We've got companies being run with parallel operations, but completely different supply chains, resulting in identical-looking watches with clear quality differences, and split-personality brand identities. The pieces sold in one part of the world are better/worse than the pieces sold in another, and they're trying to sell under $600 Swiss-by-way-of-China stuff alongside $2k European-made stuff.

We've got high-end brands out-sourcing their movement production to China. Not just fixed metal parts, but MOVEMENTS. That's the last refuge of Swissness to be had in this business, and it's a refuge in name only.

We've got big-name brands (I mean, BIG names) who can't even finance their own production costs anymore, so they're demanding pre-payments months in advance from retailers. Then they take the money they got from the retailers, make the watches, but go and sell the watches direct to the public, at a discount, before they've shipped to the retailers, leaving the retailers holding the bag for inventory they can't sell.

I can't hardly make sense of it all. I've asked people who've been in it longer than me to explain it. Apparently some of these brand owners just like to see and be seen at Basel. It's a chance to get away with their girlfriends and leave their wives at home. The business produces enough to finance their diving excursions or pay for their other hobbies, but otherwise, they don't make money, and it's all one big circle-jerk.

I was told a small, 2-meter wide, one-window display at Basel is something like $40k, before you get into travel and accommodations costs. A brand like Sinn will spend $1M per year just on Basel, plus go to all the other regional shows.

Why? They're Sinn. They can't even keep up with demand as it is. They could double their prices right now, and still sell every piece they make. Why screw around pissing away $2M per year on shows and travel costs when you can't even ramp up your production to meet current demand?

I keep thinking there's a reckoning coming, but it seems like this is all "normal" for the industry. Somehow these clowns keep smooth-talking deep-pocketed investors to finance this lunacy.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Heat-blued parts often look black until they catch the light and you see the glint of blue. These clearly weren't heat-blued. Worse, only the top-surfaces of the screws were blued, either with paint or plating, but even that was poorly done.
> 
> Simply tilting the movement, you could see the uneven line where the bluing stopped around the head of the screws. I'm not the guy who puts everything under a loupe and scrutinizes, looking for flaws, but even to me, this was sad to see. It reminded me of seeing painted panels on outlets and light switches, the true sign of zero-f**ks among interior painters.


Hm. This is interesting, tbh. Because by now I've seen multiples of examples where ETA movements (2824-2, 6497) of the best-finish-level, that supposedly come with blued screws, actually have exactly as you say, metal screws with blue tops but with white cutouts. Idk if ETA makes them like that or if it's some thirdparty modification, but tbh - as far as I've seen, even in photos - all of the generally affordable ETA top movements have these odd blue-with-white-strip screws...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Damn.
> 
> So basically, with microbrands, there's no guarantee that "Swiss Made" is even legit...
> 
> Jeeeeeeez this is wild.


I don't want to get sucked into the whole "Swiss Made" thing every week, but...it's mostly a crock.

Read the Swiss Made rules, including the footnotes. Do the math. All the parts could be made somewhere else. I'm not saying all of them are made somewhere else. I'm guessing parts like Nivarox hairsprings are made in Europe (but even there, I could be wrong), and maybe the jewels (ditto), but no one can really say.

I've always figured that, at worst, the parts might all be made somewhere else, but shipped to Switzerland to be assembled. I'm talking about the movements, not just casing up movements assembled elsewhere, but it's become clear to me - demonstrably, undeniably clear - that even that's not really the case. When you find fibers, cracked jewels, gummed up lubrication, and rust (yes, RUST) in a new Swiss movement, you can't continue to believe.

It's a math quiz. As long as the markups are correct, and the payoffs are in place, you pass.

The numbers just don't add up. You can't get a movement put together here in the USA and sell it for what the Swiss are selling uncased movements for, and their prevailing labor rates are higher than ours. There's a shortage of skilled watchmakers. They're not working cheap.

I talk to other brand owners. One, who's been at this a good bit longer than me, and sells a lot more than I do, told me the last "Swiss" case he bought came from China.

It's the biggest sham going, the world's worst-kept secret. Some of these Swiss "factories" are just doing what that guy I talked about earlier is doing - taking the order, passing it along to China, marking it up, and calling it "Swiss Made".

The ones that are trying to do it the right way, and truly make stuff in Switzerland, are having their a$$e$ handed to them, because they can't charge enough to make a margin. That's why you've got companies cutting corners, using NOS movements, not being able to keep the machines going enough to maintain necessary temperatures, falling behind in production, and needing retailers to finance them.

Why don't they charge more? For the same reason I don't raise my prices. Every week, some internet expert tells me they can get a watch with the same specs and components as mine for less. If you think I hate hearing that (I've become immune to it - being sold out helps), imagine being the guy trying to make and sell a truly "Swiss Made" watch and having to be priced competitively with companies pencil-whipping the "Swiss Made" thing by having all the real production done in Asia.

Do you REALLY think you can get a TRULY "Swiss Made" watch with all the whistles and bells for under $600? Really? TRULY "Swiss Made", when I can't hardly sell my watches for what I do and make a margin, using Chinese assembly and Japanese movements?

I looked up that GP automatic alarm. Ten years ago, USED values were $3k-$5k. For a watch with what is almost certainly a Chinese-made movement inside. Those Tag Aquaracers are $2k - on the GRAY market - with a basic Sellita-based "Calibre 5", a plastic movement ring...I'm not saying it's a $600 watch, but it ain't a $2000 watch, either.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm. Tbh yes, I thought that "swiss made" was at least an assurance that even if all the hardware is made outside of switzerland, at least it was being assembled, quality-checked and fitted in switzerland (with the implicit assumption that the quality therefore is a bit better, even if it is in a Swiss border town with most employees being French for wage reasons).

If it's really just a print without even that assurance in place, if it's really just an oyster-shell game of buying cheap, rebadging and selling high over and over, then... well, $h1t.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Hm. This is interesting, tbh. Because by now I've seen multiples of examples where ETA movements (2824-2, 6497) of the best-finish-level, that supposedly come with blued screws, actually have exactly as you say, metal screws with blue tops but with white cutouts. Idk if ETA makes them like that or if it's some thirdparty modification, but tbh - as far as I've seen, even in photos - all of the generally affordable ETA top movements have these odd blue-with-white-strip screws...


I got into this recently, here, I think. Someone on Facebook asked if the Tissel pilot had "real" heat-blued hands.

I mean, c'mon. It's a $200 automatic pilot watch from Korea, with all the whistles and bells you could possibly hope for in a $200 automatic watch from Korea. What do you think they are, heat-blued or plated, and why does it matter for $200?

Again, I don't want to insult everyone talking about watches on the internet, but I'm reaching a point where I can't read any more discussions of "quality" and "fit-and-finish" between guys who think they know either because they bought a few under $1,000 watches.

The latest madness that seems to be catching on is the "phantom date-position" deal-killer. Guys buying $600 watches, and complaining about phantom date change positions in the crown. Seriously? We're deep in the weeds of first-world problems if that's the new complaint of last resort. (Please, no one start a debate with me on this. Logic is on my side on this one, trust me, and I will use that logic to defenestrate the opposing arguments about it.)

I'm sorry, but there's just a ton of crap being sold and over-hyped as being better than it is, which just warps expectations and people's perceptions of their own ability to discern the difference.

There's a lot of cheap crap. There's a lot of over-priced, not cheap-at-all-crap. And somewhere amidst all that crap, if you know what to look for, you'll find some good values on stuff that's well-made for the price.

I'm not saying the ETAs with the painted blue screw heads are crap. I'm sure they're well-made movements, for what they are (what they are is 50+ year old tech being touted as superior to cutting-edge Japanese tech), but they're paint-bluing the screws to achieve an aesthetic effect, which isn't the same as heat-bluing them to protect the parts, which is the purpose of heat-bluing. It's one of many examples of how the industry tries to cater to caviar tastes on Ramen budgets.

It's like putting a spoiler on your Honda Civic. It may make the car look more sporty, but it won't go any faster.

If you want horological masterpieces, you have to start shelling out the big bucks for the old-school, small-batch, high-end brands like ALS and Moser. Anyone who thinks they're buying heirloom-quality stuff for less than what a Rolex steel Sub costs needs a check-up from the neck-up.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm. Tbh yes, I thought that "swiss made" was at least an assurance that even if all the hardware is made outside of switzerland, at least it was being assembled, quality-checked and fitted in switzerland (with the implicit assumption that the quality therefore is a bit better, even if it is in a Swiss border town with most employees being French for wage reasons).
> 
> If it's really just a print without even that assurance in place, if it's really just an oyster-shell game of buying cheap, rebadging and selling high over and over, then... well, $h1t.


Some of it is, but maybe not all.

I think there are a lot of games being played, for certain.

You saw the thread I posted about what may happen in 2020, if ETA follows through on their plans to cut off all sales of assembled movements and ebauches to third parties.

From what I gather (and to give credit where it's due), I've not heard anyone in the industry suggest there's any reason to be suspect of the quality of ETA movements. Other than the assumed 5%-6% defect rate (which is laughably high compared to the 0.3% rate with Miyotas), they sound rock-solid.

That's not the case with all the other "Swiss" manufacturers. I get conflicting reports, which isn't a good thing in itself, as indicators go, but with every other Swiss manufacturer, I've got multiple and reliable reports of quality concerns. Add what I've seen firsthand myself, and it doesn't fill me with confidence in the "Swiss" label, even if it's ONLY applied to the movements (since I think we all assume most of the other component parts are made elsewhere).

As it sits, I'm willing to believe ETAs are in fact assembled in Switzerland, which results in a 5%-6% defect rate. The others? Their defect rates are higher, and I would not be at all surprised to learn of "hide-the-good-stuff" sorts of games being played, wherein, say, Zodiac gets the "good" STP movements, and micros get the not-as-good ones. That would certainly explain the vastly different impressions people have based on experience.

It's not just STP. Why did Soprod change their calibre number? Why did brand ____ stop using Eterna movements? Why can't Sellita make complete movements without help from ETA? Why did a guy in Hong Kong tell me he can get me ____ movements made in China tomorrow, but if I want them to be "Swiss Made", it'll take a few months for the rotors to be sent to Switzerland for engraving? Why can't Ronda get the R150 into mass production, even now, going on three years after announcing them at Basel?

These are SWISS companies. They're supposed to be the BEST in the world at this (if you believe their marketing). Am I the only one who understands the whole "Swiss Made" thing only became a thing because the Japanese were eating their breakfast, lunch, and dinner?

Somehow, ETA is the only company, among all of them, who can figure out how to get a reliable "Swiss Made" movement made in Switzerland? Really? In the one place in the world known for making watches, they can't figure out how to make watches that work and don't cost as much as a car?

Their signature movement, the 2824-2, is a 50+ year-old, off-patent design. Who's driving the bus on product development over there, George R.R. Martin?

Seiko and Miyota roll out new calibres and variations at light-speed by comparison, and they're all BULLETPROOF. Don't get me wrong, I have bones to pick with the Japanese, and they play their own games, too. But if I have to pick my poison, let's just say it'll be wrapped in seaweed and get chased down with some Sake.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

9015s 

9015 + Gilt


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> I keep thinking there's a reckoning coming, but it seems like this is all "normal" for the industry. Somehow these clowns keep smooth-talking deep-pocketed investors to finance this lunacy.


I don't know that it will be a true-blue, apocalyptic reckoning because this sort of cut-corners-any-way-you-can strategizing has been part of luxury goods for ages.

After all, a lot of big name, expensive designer clothes are notoriously cheap and awful, and you still find people defending the brands selling what should be a $50 pair of shoes for $2000 just because people are buying the "design." Meanwhile, the designers and their staff have big, expensive events and parties where they can throw back nice champagne and mingle with celebrities (sometimes upwards of 8 different runway shows a year!). This industry doesn't play by sensible rules.

That said, that kind of economic nonsense depends a lot on being able to maintain an illusion of luxury that sustains brand cachet. I'm not sure how well many of the Swiss brands will be able to go on doing that (there are a lot of Swiss brands without much cachet, I'd say), though the wonky structures they've built to support themselves might keep them on life support for a while longer.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just to lighten the mood a bit, and this ain't Swiss at all, just remember it is Friday, scratched crystal and all....


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Agent Sands said:


> I don't know that it will be a true-blue, apocalyptic reckoning because this sort of cut-corners-any-way-you-can strategizing has been part of luxury goods for ages.
> 
> After all, a lot of big name, expensive designer clothes are notoriously cheap and awful, and you still find people defending the brands selling what should be a $50 pair of shoes for $2000 just because people are buying the "design." Meanwhile, the designers and their staff have big, expensive events and parties where they can throw back nice champagne and mingle with celebrities (sometimes upwards of 8 different runway shows a year!). This kinda stuff doesn't play by sensible rules.
> 
> That said, that kind of economic nonsense depends a lot on being able to maintain an illusion of luxury that sustains brand cachet. I'm not sure how well many of the Swiss brands will be able to go on doing that (there are a lot of Swiss brands without much cachet, I'd say), though the wonky structures they've built to support themselves might keep them on life support for a while longer.


Reminded me of this https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/29/business/payless-fake-store/index.html

Proves everything said about "luxury brands", marketing, etc.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

i'm seeing walls o' text. we want watches. counter attack with the walls o' photos


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> I've always figured that, at worst, the parts might all be made somewhere else, but shipped to Switzerland to be assembled. I'm talking about the movements, not just casing up movements assembled elsewhere, but it's become clear to me - demonstrably, undeniably clear - that even that's not really the case. When you find fibers, cracked jewels, gummed up lubrication, and rust (yes, RUST) in a new Swiss movement, you can't continue to believe.





docvail said:


> From what I gather (and to give credit where it's due), I've not heard anyone in the industry suggest there's any reason to be suspect of the quality of ETA movements. Other than the assumed 5%-6% defect rate (which is laughably high compared to the 0.3% rate with Miyotas), they sound rock-solid.
> 
> That's not the case with all the other "Swiss" manufacturers. I get conflicting reports, which isn't a good thing in itself, as indicators go, but with every other Swiss manufacturer, I've got multiple and reliable reports of quality concerns. Add what I've seen firsthand myself, and it doesn't fill me with confidence in the "Swiss" label, even if it's ONLY applied to the movements (since I think we all assume most of the other component parts are made elsewhere).
> 
> As it sits, I'm willing to believe ETAs are in fact assembled in Switzerland, which results in a 5%-6% defect rate. The others? Their defect rates are higher, and I would not be at all surprised to learn of "hide-the-good-stuff" sorts of games being played, wherein, say, Zodiac gets the "good" STP movements, and micros get the not-as-good ones. That would certainly explain the vastly different impressions people have based on experience.


Not to dogpile or continue the bashing, but sharing my real world experience.

Not too long ago, I picked up a new Mido Multifort off Touch of Modern. Price was good and had a targeted discount, which made it even better. It was the 38mm with the ETA 2836-2 (day/date). Seemed they were clearing out discontinued merchandise as Mido US only features the 42mm version now.

Shortly after receiving it and giving it some wrist time, I noticed the next day that the watch had stopped around 10:45pm. Which was odd if it was fully charged. I unscrewed the crown, reset the time and it started up again as if nothing were amiss.
Wore it the next day and took it off at night, and again it had stopped around 10:45pm. Very odd behavior. Reset it and it kept running like normal. Third day out, I watched it stop around the 10:47pm and that's when I knew there was a problem with the movement.

Since it was brand new and the Touch of Modern order listed it featured 2 year manufacturer's warranty, I contacted Swatch about it. 
Explained the situation to the customer service rep and they recommended to send it in for evaluation. They mentioned that a Touch of Modern purchase wouldn't qualify for warranty coverage, but due to the unusual situation they would cover costs of service. 
Through their customer portal, I read that "Foreign objects detected in the movement" was found. 
They received it on 11/8 and I'm getting it back on Monday, so two months isn't horrible considering the holidays and they actually repaired it instead of swapping in a new movement.

I do love the watch and plan to wear it regularly, but I will admit that I am a tad apprehensive of purchasing something with a new ETA movement based on this experience. 
Even with an acceptable 5-6% defect rate, that still makes very cautious. All my other purchases recently have either featured NH35 or Miyota movements with no issues whatsoever. 
I did pick up a used Antilles, but I remember reading about the STP drama you had with their movements to feel confident that if something had been wonky, it would've been addressed before I got it.

Not sure where I'm going with this anecdote, but guess if THE big dog can have issues with their own movements, what does that really say about the myth of Swiss?


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

TheJohnP said:


> Not to dogpile or continue the bashing, but sharing my real world experience.
> 
> Not too long ago, I picked up a new Mido Multifort off Touch of Modern. Price was good and had a targeted discount, which made it even better. It was the 38mm with the ETA 2836-2 (day/date). Seemed they were clearing out discontinued merchandise as Mido US only features the 42mm version now.
> 
> ...


To be fair to Mido/Swatch Group, Touch of Modern watch purchases can be dodgy. They function as a way to move a lot of discontinued/clearanced merchandise with a sleek online storefront. Most of their watch sales are strictly "gray market" stuff with questionable provenance, and even from the more reputable gray market dealers there's a sense of risk involved. These watches might have changed hands multiple times before they ended up at Touch of Modern. It sounds like Touch of Modern might have falsely advertised the manufacturer's warranty (did you reach out to Touch of Modern for clarification on that point?), more likely by accident/carelessness than out of malice. They've had incorrect listings before.

That said, plenty of folks have had issues with ETA calibers even when they go through the AD channels. It happens. I've generally lucked out with my purchases--I've owned two watches with with 2824s and two watches with the comparable Sellitas, and my experience with the ETA 2824s has been positive and my experience with the Sellitas has been merely okay; the Sellitas are clearly rougher movements, as you can tell whenever you go to hand-wind 'em--but I know others who have had issues, such as the dreaded ETA hand-winding problem or bearings loose in the movement, etc.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Agent Sands said:


> To be fair to Mido/Swatch Group, Touch of Modern watch purchases can be dodgy. They function as a way to move a lot of discontinued/clearanced merchandise with a sleek online storefront. Most of their watch sales are strictly "gray market" stuff with questionable provenance, and even from the more reputable gray market dealers there's a sense of risk involved.
> 
> These watches might have changed hands multiple times before they ended up at Touch of Modern. It sounds like Touch of Modern might have falsely advertised the manufacturer's warranty (did you reach out to Touch of Modern for clarification on that point?), more likely by accident/carelessness than out of malice. They've had incorrect listings before.


I did contact ToM and received a response from their Watch Specialist who wrote "Your warranty is covered with the Manufacturer directly - just provide them a copy of your receipt when contacting them."

I'm sure they move a lot of merchandise from whatever vendors are willing to give them a discount for their cut, but from the listing and that response, it sounds like mine came from Swatch Group. 
Which could be a reason they offered to repair at no cost under "goodwill." A way to offer a warranty but still disavow it at the same time?

Movement issues happen. It got fixed. But I still will be wary of brand new ETA movements until I have a more positive experience.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

TheJohnP said:


> I'm sure they move a lot of merchandise from whatever vendors are willing to give them a discount for their cut, but from the listing and that response, it sounds like mine came from Swatch Group.
> 
> Which could be a reason they offered to repair at no cost under "goodwill." A way to offer a warranty but still disavow it at the same time?


Very possible. We've heard a lot of rumblings about the Swiss brands dumping stock directly to the gray market, even though they deny they're actually doing it (for obvious reasons, given how it undercuts the ADs).


----------



## michaeliany (Aug 11, 2014)

Doc and other posters, thanks for your insight into the industry and your obvious passion. I learned a lot.

Also, I’ll be purchasing one of your watches for sure in 2019!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheJohnP said:


> ...Shortly after receiving it and giving it some wrist time, *I noticed the next day that the watch had stopped around 10:45pm*. Which was odd if it was fully charged. I unscrewed the crown, reset the time and it started up again as if nothing were amiss.
> Wore it the next day and took it off at night, and again it had stopped around *10:45pm*. Very odd behavior. Reset it and it kept running like normal. Third day out, I watched it stop around the *10:47pm* and that's when I knew there was a problem with the movement...


That's weird that it stopped at more or less the same time.

My first thought is to wonder if there isn't some problem with the hands, such that the minute hand is getting stuck against the hour hand. We've seen how a seconds hand can become dislodged, go out of plane, and get caught on the minute hand.

But if that's the cause, I'd think it would happen at any random time when the minute hand passes over the hour hand, not at one specific time, when they're not likely to be completely aligned. If anything, I'd think the minute hand would stop just past the hour, if not right on it, whereas at 10:45, the minute hand hasn't gotten there yet.

My technical knowledge of how movements work could be summed up as "there's a coiled spring, a bunch of gears, and those move the hands", so the only other thing I can think of is that there could be one or more teeth broken in one or more gears, and the watch stops because the gears stop being driven whenever the "flat spot" on the wheel is reached.

The handset thing is a little easier to catch in QC. A broken gear tooth ought to be spotted when the movement is being assembled, but of course if it broke subsequently, that could be easier to miss in QC, though it's hard to fathom how a "new" watch would have a gear with broken teeth.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

It could be that the nearby military base is testing their EMP bombs regularly at 10:45...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> It could be that the nearby military base is testing their EMP bombs regularly at 10:45...


There's an advertisement for mechanical watches.

"Quartz is better? Hold my beer while I kill every electrical circuit for miles in every direction....there, how you like my less-accurate mechanical watch now, bizotch?"


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

On a fresher note, whaddaya think folks, when can we expect an NTH Sub Ultraman Edition?


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> On a fresher note, whaddaya think folks, when can we expect an NTH Sub Ultraman Edition?


Orange you glad he asked that question Doc?

I'm a fan of the Ultraman Speedmaster!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Doc ol boy, unlike the click ring, which remains identically misaligned in every position, if hour hand is on plane, but minute hand is not, it’s expectable that it will hit the hour hand at its low point and nowhere else.

Remember summers at the pool? Think of a tetherball as the minute hand, and your junk as the hour hand...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Doc ol boy, unlike the click ring, which remains identically misaligned in every position, if hour hand is on plane, but minute hand is not, it's expectable that it will hit the hour hand at its low point and nowhere else.
> 
> Remember summers at the pool? Think of a tetherball as the minute hand, and your junk as the hour hand...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's entirely possible that I'm thinking about this the wrong way (not likely, but possible). Given our history, it's not at all unlikely I'm just missing your point (or you missed mine), and you're agreeing with me, though one or the other of us don't realize it.

If the seconds or minute hand goes out of plane, and tilts down, then it's always tilting down as it rotates, and if the angle is severe enough, I'd expect it to get hung up on the hand below it when they're aligned.

If it's the seconds hand, and it's either tilted up, or curved (we saw some DevilRays with upward-curved tips, which we attributed to different rates of expansion/contraction due to temp changes, between the uncoated section of the hands and the coated tips), then it may get hung up on the crystal. The seconds hand post can have some small degree of wobble in it, such that the hand hits the crystal at the same point repeatedly, rather than drag across it constantly. I can't really explain it, but we have seen it, so I know it can happen. We've seen examples where the seconds hand always stops within a few seconds of the same spot where it's hitting the crystal. Straightening the tip is the cure.

The more I think about it, it's also possible that the minute hand is getting caught on the nine hour marker, if it's slightly raised, enough to remove the clearance the hands need, though in that scenario, I don't understand why it would always be 10:45, specifically, rather than just any *:45, generally.

Lastly, I never played tether ball at the pool. I was always a "Sharks and Minnows" man, or, failing that, "Marco Polo". Despite my never athletic physique, it turns out I can hold my breath under water a long time.

I'm sticking with my broken gear tooth theory. If that's the cause, I'm not sure how it would make me view ETA, though I suppose it would have to reflect negatively on them. Even if the watch worked in QC, but it's since aged out to become NOS, and the lubrication isn't what it should be, I wouldn't think the gear teeth would break so quickly, unless a gear seized up, and even that would seem to indicate design/engineering weakness or incorrect assembly.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Well, I finally finished reading through the 2020 Event Horizon thread (I stepped away from WUS for a while this summer as I was getting my life in order, so I missed it), and now my eyes are bleeding. If you think the walls of text in this thread are bad... yeesh. But the speculation there is compelling.

To add to that and to the recent comments following from Chris' watchmaker's speculations, I have often suspected that the widely held assumption that the major Swiss watch manufacturers have only been using Chinese and/or non-Swiss labor for manufacturing for case/bracelet materials and not for the movements themselves has always been misplaced. If you look at the "Swiss Made" rules and the big loopholes there, it would be surprising to me if the Swiss movement manufacturers weren't relying on the external resources. My expectation is that if a company is given an opportunity for cost savings, they're going to take it.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Speaking of bracelets (since the above post mentioned them too)...
Just had to resize a bracelet where links are held together by those double-sided screwbars (so a tiny 1-size slot-head on one side and a tiny 1-size slot head on the other side. Neither side has any grip on the links themselves, it's all free rotation). Hooo-lee Sh.... that was a right pain. Trying to jam two screwdrivers one from each side and keeping it all aligned while also applying torque to both drivers... and trying to avoid it all from slipping out..

Yeah that was horrible. 
Anyone who's got any say in what bracelet designs or constructions get used, by god please do NOT choose double-sided screwbars. This was WAY worse than any pin&collar system.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Speaking of bracelets (since the above post mentioned them too)...
> Just had to resize a bracelet where links are held together by those double-sided screwbars (so a tiny 1-size slot-head on one side and a tiny 1-size slot head on the other side. Neither side has any grip on the links themselves, it's all free rotation). Hooo-lee Sh.... that was a right pain. Trying to jam two screwdrivers one from each side and keeping it all aligned while also applying torque to both drivers... and trying to avoid it all from slipping out..
> 
> Yeah that was horrible.
> Anyone who's got any say in what bracelet designs or constructions get used, by god please do NOT choose double-sided screwbars. This was WAY worse than any pin&collar system.


Perfect example of how I'll never be able to please everyone.

If the three available choices are single-piece screw-bars, folded split-pins, or two-piece whatever-you-call-'ems, I've heard people espouse an eternal love or a white-hot hatred for each.

I believe the new Subs bracelets/clasps are generally regarded as improvements over the originals, and yet the complaints I've gotten about them far outpace the complaints I had on the originals.

Granted, some of the issues raised are quite understandable, but that doesn't stop me from wondering if I wasn't foolish to try making an improvement to something that wasn't in dire need of improvement.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'm sticking with my broken gear tooth theory. If that's the cause, I'm not sure how it would make me view ETA, though I suppose it would have to reflect negatively on them. Even if the watch worked in QC, but it's since aged out to become NOS, and the lubrication isn't what it should be, I wouldn't think the gear teeth would break so quickly, unless a gear seized up, and even that would seem to indicate design/engineering weakness or incorrect assembly.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


In my own wall of text, I did mention that they found "Foreign objects detected in the movement"
Which could very well support your broken gear tooth theory. 
And does seem an odd issue for a brand new, albeit discontinued, watch.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

X2-Elijah said:


> On a fresher note, whaddaya think folks, when can we expect an NTH Sub Ultraman Edition?


Looks like Undone beat him to the punch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Well, I finally finished reading through the 2020 Event Horizon thread (I stepped away from WUS for a while this summer as I was getting my life in order, so I missed it), and now my eyes are bleeding. If you think the walls of text in this thread are bad... yeesh. But the speculation there is compelling.
> 
> To add to that and to the recent comments following from Chris' watchmaker's speculations, I have often suspected that the widely held assumption that the major Swiss watch manufacturers have only been using Chinese and/or non-Swiss labor for manufacturing for case/bracelet materials and not for the movements themselves has always been misplaced. If you look at the "Swiss Made" rules and the big loopholes there, it would be surprising to me if the Swiss movement manufacturers weren't relying on the external resources. My expectation is that if a company is given an opportunity for cost savings, they're going to take it.


Again, there was a recent thread in the public forum, started by someone putting forth examples of designs where Swatch-owned Certina seems to be borrowing heavily from the design language of Swatch-owned Omega. I couldn't help but see it as further evidence of a master-plan being put into effect at Swatch.

It's hard for me to imagine they feel very threatened by smaller companies producing lower-cost-yet-similar-looking alternatives to Omega models. But at the same time, even if they're only aware of it, not particularly threatened by it, it isn't hard to imagine they'd see that "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" only makes strategic sense if you CAN'T beat them, and from what I see, they CAN beat them.

I believe the powers at Swatch see the growth potential in the mid-range (retail USD $400-$1000) market, so it makes sense to me they'd want to damage competitors producing alternatives to the entry-level 2824-2, and also have their own in-house, affordable alternatives to their own luxury models.

Why let the likes of Roamer and Rotary enjoy the easy wins of selling $600 "Swiss Made" Omega lookalikes when you can can produce and sell your own with a stronger brand identity (like Certina) and more legitimacy (since both Certina and Omega are owned by Swatch)?

Certina had zero US distribution as recently as 4 or 5 years ago, and even Mido and Rado weren't as widely available here as they are now. The main US-available choices for mid-range stuff from Swatch were just Hamilton and Tissot.

But now they've got 4 brands playing in the $400-$1000 range, with Certina and Mido seemingly positioned immediately above Tissot and Hamilton, and with Rado straddling the upper boundary line, bridging the gap between those brands and Longines.

It makes a lot of sense to have a product range which extends from the under $400 entry-level mass market up through the $6,000 and up luxury market, but with distinct brands at each level, rather than trying to have one brand diluted by trying to be competitive at both ends, which, in my opinion, doesn't seem to work as well for brands like Squale.

It's sort of like when VW produced the Phaeton. It worked well as an Audi A8, but not so much as a big brother to the Jetta and Passat. Most people would rather have an Audi than a VW, all other things (price, specs, etc) being more or less equal. So you get college grads to want a GTI, and as their income grows, they migrate to the Jetta, then the Passat, or cross brands into an Audi A4, then an A6, etc.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> I believe the powers at Swatch see the growth potential in the mid-range (retail USD $400-$1000) market, so it makes sense to me they'd want to damage competitors producing alternatives to the entry-level 2824-2, and also have their own in-house, affordable alternatives to their own luxury models.


This fits with announcements like their intent to develop a new, super-cheap mechanical chronograph (to be priced around $500). And like the Swissmatic/Powermatics, it would presumably be a Swatch Group exclusive, another way for Swatch to undercut the Swiss competition.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



TheJohnP said:


> In my own wall of text, I did mention that they found "*Foreign objects detected in the movement*"
> Which could very well support your broken gear tooth theory.
> And does seem an odd issue for a brand new, albeit discontinued, watch.


Like tiny little illegal immigrants.

"Foreign objects" could very well be broken teeth, or it could be that something which shouldn't be there got lodged in the gears, stopping the works at exactly the same point each time. Your re-setting the hands might have added enough force to get past it, but maybe there wasn't enough force from the energy of the mainspring to push past the obstruction on its own.

Every so often, we'll get a case clamp screw backing itself out, and falling into the movement. That usually results in a full-on "it's broke", not a repeated "it seems to breakdown here". My watchmaker just sent me a pic showing a tiny piece of styrofoam lodged in the balance, which freaked me out, until he talked me off the ledge, by explaining it could have been trapped inside the case, but not yet in the balance when the first couple rounds of QC were done.

Some sort of debris in the case can and does happen, so that wouldn't be a knock on ETA. But if it is broken teeth, that's no bueno, even on something which may have been sitting on a shelf for a few years.

This is really inside-baseball now, but here goes... all the big watchmaking schools seem to work according to the Swiss practices, so watchmakers tend to use Swiss movements like the 2824-2 as the basis for comparison.

A watchmaker told me that he noticed the lubrication in the 9015 was thinner than what he was taught to use. Is that bad? No, not necessarily, if the 9015 was engineered to run with thinner lubricants.

But it seems like the Chinese-assembled movements (which is not to say "Chinese movements", but exactly what I said, movements which were assembled in China, clearly, even if they're marked "Swiss"), when they're bad, often seem to have overly thick lubrication, in some cases crazy-thick, like it's all gummed up.

The obvious suspicion is to think you've got an old movement that needed to be cleaned and re-lubricated, but wasn't. But I'm not certain that can adequately explain it if you're getting something that is supposed to be "new". Yes, sometimes you're dealing with NOS ("new, old stock"), but sometimes it's just "NEW", and it doesn't make sense.

I was visiting the Veteran Watchmakers Initiative sometime last year, and the founder/lead instructor, Sam Cannon, told me that some years back, some company came up with some lubricant additive which the industry briefly adopted (or maybe it was an alternative lubricant), due to its purported benefits, but it was quickly determined that it's use caused the lubricants to gum up, and so the practice ended abruptly. He suggested that the Chinese may not have caught on, and as such may still be using it.

That would certainly explain a good bit of what I've heard and seen firsthand, and it's enough for me to prefer a Japanese movement over an entry-level Swiss movement, if there's even the remote chance the "Swiss" movement may have been even partially assembled in China, especially when combined with the knowledge that the Chinese don't always follow watchmaker practices for strengthening movement parts.

Only in the interest of fairness, and since the rotor noise of the 9015 is a frequently-raised complaint - the rotor assembly lubrication can often be spare, in addition to being light weight. This makes the 9015 rotor spin more freely, which increases auto-winding efficiency, but has the drawback of making it more audible, and I suppose it may increase wear-and-tear on the bearings.

It's extremely rare that we need to work on a 9015 (rather than just replacing one), but when we do, we'll sometimes add some lubrication to the rotor bearings, which will quiet the rotor noise, but also slows it down, so it's a trade-off with the auto-winding efficiency.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> This fits with announcements like their intent to develop a new, super-cheap mechanical chronograph (to be priced around $500). And like the Swissmatic/Powermatics, it would presumably be a Swatch Group exclusive, another way for Swatch to undercut the Swiss competition.


I mean...we all know the WIS market is a sliver of the global market. But I think we tend to forget how simple product segmentation may really be for a big company like Swatch.

Most people would seem to fall into the "give it to me as cheap as possible" under $400 mass market camp, or the "I'll pay whatever you charge for an impressive brand-name" luxury market camp.

Selling Omegas to the latter seems easy enough. Just make everything some limited-edition variation, hype them up, sell them all, wash, rinse, repeat.

But at the other end, the only play that makes sense is to make it fast, make it cheap, make it as gaudy as it needs to be to attract the unwashed masses, and make it visible.

The challenge is that the under $400 market is so insanely crowded, mostly with Asian-made stuff, and the numbers show that the Swiss are seeing declining profits in that segment (increasing volume of units sold, but a decrease in average price per unit).

So it makes sense that they'd want to position themselves as the next rung up the ladder from everything in that market, and just dominate that $400-$1000 space, but to do it with the highest margins possible, which means a lot of flash for not a lot of cash, and charging more for stuff that was once available for less...

In that context, a $500 mechanical chrono with plastic parts from one of Swatch's entry-level brands makes a lot more sense than letting Bulova sell $500 chronos with Valjoux 7750's inside, and then turning around and trying to sell a Hamilton Pan Europ for $1500. That $1500 v.7750 is the future. A $500 price tag on those is about to become the past. You can't go online and buy a single 7750 movement new for less than $400.

Yes, I'm speculating, but to me, the conclusions seem obvious enough that I don't get why more people don't reach the same ones I do. Swatch wants to cut off movement sales to 3rd parties, which wipes out a lot of lower-tier competition, then dominate that space where all the potential growth seems to be, and pump up all their margins by raising prices on stuff that was once commonplace (and cheap) in the mid-range.

They can't stop Tudor, or any other brand from buying Soprods or Eterna movements to dwell in that $1000-$6000 range, and they can't, nor should they want to be slogging it out in the under $400 range, but no one outside Japan seems to have an answer for the 2824-2 in the $400-$1000 range, and even the Japanese don't seem to be focused there, so it's just Swatch, and micros.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Speaking of bracelets (since the above post mentioned them too)...
> Just had to resize a bracelet where links are held together by those double-sided screwbars (so a tiny 1-size slot-head on one side and a tiny 1-size slot head on the other side. Neither side has any grip on the links themselves, it's all free rotation). Hooo-lee Sh.... that was a right pain. Trying to jam two screwdrivers one from each side and keeping it all aligned while also applying torque to both drivers... and trying to avoid it all from slipping out..
> 
> Yeah that was horrible.
> Anyone who's got any say in what bracelet designs or constructions get used, by god please do NOT choose double-sided screwbars. This was WAY worse than any pin&collar system.


Didn't you have a Dagaz Thunderbolt some time ago? If it was like mine, you should be skilled at this already ;-)

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Doc, I think your reading of Swatch Group strategy adds up. Whether or not they'll be completely successful depends on some other factors, but I wouldn't bet against them.

If they win, the general consumer won't notice because they don't pay attention, but it'll be bad for us WIS-types.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Over the last week, I've been watching some drama unfold with another brand, also one who dealt with the guy described above, and, of course, despite the brand's over-the-top claims of cutting-edge Swiss watchmaking wizardry, the craptastic watches are clearly craptastic, and falling apart, with no support to be had from the brand. Other than the occasional post on Facebook, they appear to have gone into hiding.


https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/hauttman-buyer-beware-4862121.html


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Doc, I think your reading of Swatch Group strategy adds up. Whether or not they'll be completely successful depends on some other factors, but I wouldn't bet against them.
> 
> If they win, the general consumer won't notice because they don't pay attention, but it'll be bad for us WIS-types.


Yeah, agreed.

I've been saying for a while that Swatch group is just a bad actor within the business. A lot of potentially bad things flow from how much sway they have over the industry. Nick Hayek can upset a lot of apple carts with nothing more than a press release. Just look at what's happening with Baselworld since Swatch pulled out. I think I read the company which runs it is now projecting a $150 million dollar operating loss this year.

To bring it home to where I live - if ETA does go through with cutting off supply, it seems that the alternatives aren't yet able to step in and keep up with demand. Sellita may not be able to produce complete movements without ETA supplying them with some parts, and Ronda's only projecting annual production volume of 5,000 movements per year, if they can even make that many. I have no idea what STP's capacity may be, but capacity isn't the real issue with them, quality is.

That doesn't even get into what happens if Swatch-owned Nivarox decides not to sell hairsprings outside ETA.

Potentially, a lot of the brands selling in that mid-range, and currently using ETAs or Sellitas (or STP's or Rondas) would turn to the Japanese movements, the way Laco has.

But, that somewhat happened already, back in 2016, which, almost certainly not coincidentally, was when we saw the prices on the 9015 spike, lead times got dragged out to 6-8 months, and all of a sudden their defect rate went from 0.1% to 3%. I don't like the idea that the only sources for affordable mechanical movements would be Seiko and Miyota, because there'd be no way to keep those companies honest.

Since ETA loosened up supply again that same year, by 2017, prices and lead times for Miyotas came back down, plus we got STP entering the fray, with a compelling bang-for-the-buck proposition, but from what I've seen, their quality outside Fossil-owned brands is hit-or-miss.

Ronda has zero production volume outside what they currently supply to Shinola. There's one other "Swiss" brand which MIGHT have an affordable alternative, but like I alluded to in an earlier post, it's clear they're producing the movements in China, and just Swissifying them on request.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but as much as I dislike the Swatch Group, I hope they keep selling ETA movements outside their own brands, and the 2824-2 remains a widely-available option in affordable automatic movements (especially if they continue supporting Sellita). That would hopefully stabilize the market with (barely) enough choices, and keep the workable (enough) status quo in place.

I'm aware of at least one, if not two, and possibly as many as three separate groups of people trying to figure out how to get some movement production going in the USA, but from what I've seen, none of them are anywhere near close to having an alternative to the 2824-2 in the pipeline. Even if or when that happens, it's likely that annual production capacity would start out really small.

To put some numbers on it, 3,000-5,000 units per year would be am amazing feat for an American startup. But Swatch and Sellita together were producing 1.2 million units per year as of 2012. If you add up the ~5,000 units Ronda thinks they'll be making "sometime" in 2019, the theoretical 3-5k units from some as-yet-non-existent American manufacture, and you give STP and the "other Swiss" manufacture credit for a huge capacity figure, you're still nowhere near where we'd want to be if we had to replace the ~500k movements which would disappear overnight if ETA cuts off supply and Sellita has to shutter its doors.

People always argue with me, saying that it's all a bluff by ETA, that they like the revenue from selling movements outside Swatch too much to stop. But I think they could see more potential value in owning the retail sales in the mid-range, and they could set the market value of their movements at whatever number they want if they stop selling outside their own stable of brands.

How hard is it to think that they'd want to pump up the perceived value by limiting supply (looking at you, Rolex/Tudor), and doubling down on the whole "Swiss Made" value? Why screw around making $50 profit per unit selling movements to competitors when you can make $450 per unit selling assembled watches while watching your competitors go out of business, or running down-market?


----------



## ravenhome777 (Jul 21, 2018)

Just purchased an NTH Bahia No Date and I absolutely LOVE IT. All around awesome watch. I may like it better than my LLD. 

One question though. I noticed that the router seems a little loud when I flick my wrist. Is this normal with all miyota movements, or could the router be a little loose on mine? I can hear it when it's about 2 - 3 feet from my head, and I can't hear my LLD router unless its a 1 foot from my head and it's faint. Not sure if all miyota movements are loud or if this one needs to tightened or something?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ravenhome777 said:


> Just purchased an NTH Bahia No Date and I absolutely LOVE IT. All around awesome watch. I may like it better than my LLD.
> 
> One question though. I noticed that the router seems a little loud when I flick my wrist. Is this normal with all miyota movements, or could the router be a little loose on mine? I can hear it when it's about 2 - 3 feet from my head, and I can't hear my LLD router unless its a 1 foot from my head and it's faint. Not sure if all miyota movements are loud or if this one needs to tightened or something?


Welcome to Watchuseek, the affordable watches sub-forum (aka F71), and the madness of this thread. I'm always honored when someone makes their first post here.

What you're hearing is normal for the 9015. They can be more audible than the ETA movement in your LLD.

Glad to hear you like the Bahia. Thanks for the kind words. Enjoy it in good health. Let us know (through the website or email) if it gives you any problems.


----------



## ravenhome777 (Jul 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Welcome to Watchuseek, the affordable watches sub-forum (aka F71), and the madness of this thread. I'm always honored when someone makes their first post here.
> 
> What you're hearing is normal for the 9015. They can be more audible than the ETA movement in your LLD.
> 
> Glad to hear you like the Bahia. Thanks for the kind words. Enjoy it in good health. Let us know (through the website or email) if it gives you any problems.


It's a little sick, but I was thinking about buying another one for a back up.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Any idea what happened to the bracelet? I'm perplexed.


OK, so seller says he had some kind issues with the end links and hooked up with a fellow enthusiast and Antilles owner who was having some other kind of issue with the rest of his bracelet. He sold his bracelet to the guy with good endlinks and everyone was happy.

Was not part of the auction, and I have a habit of removing bracelets in favor of straps, so no big deal on my end. But I do like a complete kit...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> OK, so seller says he had some kind issues with the end links and hooked up with a fellow enthusiast and Antilles owner who was having some other kind of issue with the rest of his bracelet. He sold his bracelet to the guy with good endlinks and everyone was happy.
> 
> Was not part of the auction, and I have a habit of removing bracelets in favor of straps, so no big deal on my end. But I do like a complete kit...


Ugh. It's like a rabbit hole of kill me now.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Ugh. It's like a rabbit hole of kill me now.
> 
> .


They worked.it out a while back, I'm happy with it as-is -- no worries, Doc!


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> How hard is it to think that they'd want to pump up the perceived value by limiting supply (looking at you, Rolex/Tudor), and doubling down on the whole "Swiss Made" value? Why screw around making $50 profit per unit selling movements to competitors when you can make $450 per unit selling assembled watches while watching your competitors go out of business, or running down-market?


Essentially, the question is why should they prefer being a component of the Swiss watch industry when they can *be* the Swiss watch industry?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

aicolainen said:


> Didn't you have a Dagaz Thunderbolt some time ago? If it was like mine, you should be skilled at this already ;-)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Hmyeah. I genuinely don't recall that bracelet being anywhere near as big of a pain, tbh. 
I think the Dagaz bracelet is way better designed, with larger and much more solid screwheads:









See? Nice wide slot-openings, good diameter, probably takes a proper screwdriver.

The bracelet I tried to resize yesterday was this one:

















And those bloody screwheads are TINY. Grrrrrrrrr. And the screwhead is rounded, so you get almost no purchase. And the slot is super-thin, so almost all driver bits that are the right width (end to end) are too thick, and you have to use an even smaller screwdriver bit that actually can slot into those tiny strips.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

TheJohnP said:


> Looks like Undone beat him to the punch.


Hehe, yep, that's the joke. Undone's been doing so many meaningless editions, it's ridiculous. Imo a bona-fide perfect way to destroy their own brand, way too much fragmentation and variation - they lose the "standard look" that got them successful.

Tbh a lot of micros do this, and idk if it's a smart idea or not.

Like - maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that as a watch brand, you always want to have your powerhouse model available (e.g. the standard speedmaster for Omega, the standard sub for Rolex) to a larger capacity than any limited/special/funky editions and variations...

However for micros, well.. there's some that seem to only do funky editions, and there's a LOT of micros who just seem to make something completely different every 6-12 months, without keeping the "powerhouse" model available... (e.g. Aevig - how long has it been since there was a Huldra available?).

I mean, as an example - all the recent Halios models are very Seaforth-like, even the upcoming ones. Why? because the Seaforth is their powerhouse model, and it's design cues now define the "Halios look". For NTH, 100% the Sub is a powerhouse model, or at least a really reliable platform. To me that just seems like a much smarter way to do things, compared to doing a completely new thing every half year.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmyeah. I genuinely don't recall that bracelet being anywhere near as big of a pain, tbh.
> I think the Dagaz bracelet is way better designed, with larger and much more solid screwheads:
> 
> View attachment 13774585
> ...


Good feedback. Valid observations. Don't mess with the half-links too. At least you didn't try to press out the screws thinking they were split pins that the arrows on the back of the links would normally indicate, like some people I know who destroyed those fragile thin pencil points on the bracelet link pin tools. The only thing more annoying to me is a bracelet screw that screws into a tiny mating pocket nut that falls out of the other side of the link never to be seen again because no one thinks to tell you to watch out for it.

Wow I almost created a WOT!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I know it's me, but I see something in this image that is strangely subliminally suggestive in a reproductive manner.

Once seen...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Thanks. I hadn't seen that image before. Now it won't go away....


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Doc ol boy, unlike the click ring, which remains identically misaligned in every position, if hour hand is on plane, but minute hand is not, it's expectable that it will hit the hour hand at its low point and nowhere else.





docvail said:


> The more I think about it, it's also possible that the minute hand is getting caught on the nine hour marker, if it's slightly raised, enough to remove the clearance the hands need, though in that scenario, I don't understand why it would always be 10:45, specifically, rather than just any *:45, generally.


Late to the party but I would guess there's an issue with the day or date wheel binding since it's noted that it stopped at 10:45 PM each day.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hehe, yep, that's the joke. Undone's been doing so many meaningless editions, it's ridiculous. Imo a bona-fide perfect way to destroy their own brand, way too much fragmentation and variation - they lose the "standard look" that got them successful.


Does Undone *have* a proper brand aesthetic? Their bread-and-butter is to offer custom watches, designed according to your own whims.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

The Watcher said:


> i'm seeing walls o' text. we want watches. counter attack with the walls o' photos
> 
> View attachment 13772585
> 
> ...











Interesting stitching on those straps. I've not see that before. Can you share details about them? Thanks.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

3WR said:


> View attachment 13776163
> 
> 
> Interesting stitching on those straps. I've not see that before. Can you share details about them? Thanks.


you mean with a WOT? nah

they have been discussed before here...italian custom, contact ebay seller 
theleatherstraps


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Rhorya said:


> I know it's me, but I see something in this image that is strangely subliminally suggestive in a reproductive manner.
> 
> Once seen...


Attaboy!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Interesting discourse on all of the behind the scene shenanigans of the watch industry.

I've never viewed "Swiss Made" as a big draw. More of a neat extra pro if it was on a watch I already liked for whatever reason. Now, that phrase may give me pause. I've never wanted to pay more for it. And now I don't want to risk questionable tactics used to get that phrase onto a watch in my price range. 

I hope it is safe to blindly enjoy all things Seiko. Maybe one day, a Rolex. And a few carefully vetted microbrands. Have been happy with a couple. Suspect I'd like an NTH Sub if I try one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sorry about the walls-o-text, to all those who just show up here looking for pics and haiku.

This stuff is interesting to me, certainly because it's my livelihood, but also just because I'm just interested in the intrigue behind business stories, good or bad. There's something I find morbidly fascinating about watching someone or a group of people run an company or an entire industry into the ground. 

Can any of us NOT slow down and look as we pass the scene of an accident on the highway? That's how I feel watching some of this stuff unfold. 

I think it also makes me feel smarter to watch people do stupid stuff, especially when there's a group of stupid people cheering them on. Sitting back and thinking, "this is a terrible idea", and then later being proven right, is like the most delicious cookie you could possibly eat.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I guess luxury ain't what it used to be.


Wow, that is a crazy story. At the same time, I saw one reviewer trash one of my favorite watches, the B&R V2-92 Aeronavale, as a "fashion watch" because it's using a SW-300 and not a "real" movement. Using an ETA or clone in your luxury watch will get you ripped apart by watch snobs, but having someone throw together a cheap movement, as long as it's "in-house" and "Swiss made" is A-OK.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> It's sort of like when VW produced the Phaeton. It worked well as an Audi A8, but not so much as a big brother to the Jetta and Passat. Most people would rather have an Audi than a VW, all other things (price, specs, etc) being more or less equal. So you get college grads to want a GTI, and as their income grows, they migrate to the Jetta, then the Passat, or cross brands into an Audi A4, then an A6, etc.


Alfred Sloan understood that from the beginning - you started off with a Chevy, bought a Buick when you graduated from law school, and a Cadillac when you made partner. In the car business at least, when you start running into trouble is when you don't differentiate your mainstream and luxury products well enough. Compare a pre-war V-12 Cadillac or Lincoln to the crap they were producing in the '80s, and it's easy to see why Mercedes and BMW were able to come in and start eating their lunch.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Interesting discourse on all of the behind the scene shenanigans of the watch industry.
> 
> I've never viewed "Swiss Made" as a big draw. More of a neat extra pro if it was on a watch I already liked for whatever reason. Now, that phrase may give me pause. I've never wanted to pay more for it. And now I don't want to risk questionable tactics used to get that phrase onto a watch in my price range.
> 
> I hope it is safe to blindly enjoy all things Seiko. Maybe one day, a Rolex. And a few carefully vetted microbrands. Have been happy with a couple. Suspect I'd like an NTH Sub if I try one.


In some ways I prefer my watches that have had Miyotas in them - mainly because I can hand-wind them without a care at all. The 2824 has a very iffy reputation in that regard. As I understand it you CAN hand-wind it, but you really _shouldn't_, at least not on a regular basis. For that reason I've always Seiko shuffle started my ETA powered watches just to be on the extra safe side. I'm not sure if the 2824 clones have that issue at all.

Seiko issues these days seem to be more cosmetic than mechanical, like the infamous misaligned chapter rings. Their movements have a very solid reputation, although you don't really ever see anything other than the NH35 used commercially. They make an NH15 commercial version of the 6R15, but I don't think I've ever seen a micro brand watch using that movement.

Here's something I've never really understood. Back in the mid '00s Seiko made the 4L25, which was basically an ETA-2892 clone for their SARA models, going so far as to use a geared bidirectional winding system instead of their own Magic Lever, and Incabloc instead of Diashock. The SARA models were a bust, and Seiko killed off the 4L. Clearly though, they have the _ability_ to clone ETA movements if they want to, so why not do it again? With all of the hand wringing going on about what ETA is going to do with the supply of 2824s and associated parts, it would seem like Seiko could handle that demand pretty easily.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> 3WR said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting discourse on all of the behind the scene shenanigans of the watch industry.
> ...


Oh, if Seiko wanted to play hardball, they could eat the Swiss watch industry's lunch. Run-of-the-mill Japanese horology is so vastly superior to run-of-the-mill Swiss horology (and, no, it's not up for debate), and not just when it comes to movements. Hell, Seiko are producing hand-made enamel dials in its Presage line, something Swiss horology tends to market as premium-grade stuff at premium-grade prices.

But Seiko seemingly doesn't want to play hardball and the cultural gap seems too immense for them to deploy a strategy to successfully market their finer watches in western markets in a way that would seriously erode Swiss market share. Seiko only recently figured out that Grand Seiko watches might do well when marketed outside of Japan.


----------



## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

This thread should be required reading for all fans of watches at any price point. Would be curious to see a break down of where the various parts for the movement in my Black bay come from (in-house) I'm sure I'll never know though lol.

And looking at all these watches makes me miss the commander 300 I bought from jakejd (I think that was/is his name)










Really do wish you'd name names though ; )

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> Seiko issues these days seem to be more cosmetic than mechanical, like the infamous misaligned chapter rings. Their movements have a very solid reputation, although you don't really ever see anything other than the NH35 used commercially. They make an NH15 commercial version of the 6R15, but I don't think I've ever seen a micro brand watch using that movement.


The reason you don't see the NH15 is that it is the NE15. Doug Kim used that in his 62MAS homage. I had one, but my chronic flipperitis led to its disappearance from my watch-box.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

MikeyT said:


> The reason you don't see the NH15 is that it is the NE15. Doug Kim used that in his 62MAS homage. I had one, but my chronic flipperitis led to its disappearance from my watch-box.


Lol, I kept my 62MAS homage but flipped my Commander 300. Mainly because I figured out I'm not a fan of faked vintage lume.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

It's odd. Over on the Seiko forum, it seems that the NE15 aka 6r15 movement has a worse reputation than the nh35/nh36 aka 4r36/4r35 ... Apparently people are noticing that 6r15 tends to vary it's accuracy a lot based on positioning.

The nh35 has not been around *that* long, tbh. The precedent, 7s26 (?), has a well-deserved reputation for being just plain tough and reliable. Time will tell with the nh35, but frankly - it's been out for about 6, 7 years or so, used by a ton of seiko and micro watches... and in all this time, no serious design faults or rampant problems have appeared. So far it seems like these are, basically, good movements. (Just like the 9015, tbh).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> It's odd. Over on the Seiko forum, it seems that the NE15 aka 6r15 movement has a worse reputation than the nh35/nh36 aka 4r36/4r35 ... Apparently people are noticing that 6r15 tends to vary it's accuracy a lot based on positioning.
> 
> The nh35 has not been around *that* long, tbh. The precedent, 7s26 (?), has a well-deserved reputation for being just plain tough and reliable. Time will tell with the nh35, but frankly - it's been out for about 6, 7 years or so, used by a ton of seiko and micro watches... and in all this time, no serious design faults or rampant problems have appeared. So far it seems like these are, basically, good movements. (Just like the 9015, tbh).


A Seiko rep I met in Hong Kong last year hinted that they were working on a replacement for the NE15/6r15, something to better compete with the Miyota 9015. I can't remember what clues he gave me, but I'm sure I told him it needed to be high-beat, even if that meant giving up some PR, and it would help if they made it thinner, all the things we all like about the 9015.

The NH3x/4r3x may be "pedestrian" in many people's eyes, but we've had really good experience with them. I can only remember replacing 2 or 3 in over 1500 pieces (1565 to be exact). That's a 0.13%-0.19% failure/defect rate. They may not be sexy, but they're bulletproof.


----------



## ChadUGWC (Oct 17, 2018)

docvail said:


> A Seiko rep I met in Hong Kong last year hinted that they were working on a replacement for the NE15/6r15, something to better compete with the Miyota 9015. I can't remember what clues he gave me, but I'm sure I told him it needed to be high-beat, even if that meant giving up some PR, and it would help if they made it thinner, all the things we all like about the 9015.
> 
> The NH3x/4r3x may be "pedestrian" in many people's eyes, but we've had really good experience with them. I can only remember replacing 2 or 3 in over 1500 pieces (1565 to be exact). That's a 0.13%-0.19% failure/defect rate. They may not be sexy, but they're bulletproof.


Now that is some exciting news. The 9015 is one of my favorite movements, and a Seiko equivalent would be great.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> The NH3x/4r3x may be "pedestrian" in many people's eyes, but we've had really good experience with them. I can only remember replacing 2 or 3 in over 1500 pieces (1565 to be exact). That's a 0.13%-0.19% failure/defect rate. They may not be sexy, but they're bulletproof.


Nobody finds anything sexy that seizes up at the first sign of rough handling. Beautifully delicate, maybe. Sexy? No. If it's the kind of watch that you're going to be afraid to wear on a bicycle, sexy it ain't. After all, Rolex didn't achieve legendary status by making flimsy watches, and its legions of admirers don't seem to particularly mind that Rolex movements aren't examples of cutting-edge technology.

Much of the bias against the NH3x/4r3x is just because it's cheap and commonplace, which leads folks to think of it as being unexceptional. Pretty impressive movement, all things considered.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

MikeyT said:


> The reason you don't see the NH15 is that it is the NE15. Doug Kim used that in his 62MAS homage. I had one, but my chronic flipperitis led to its disappearance from my watch-box.


Ah. Still, it's really really unusual to see anywhere. I wonder if it's because it's still 3Hz. I'm just not sure how much people care about an extra 8 hours of PR over the NH35, and the NH35 is substantially more affordable, so if you're trying to keep costs down, that would be the logical way to go. If you're pricing your watch at $600+ though and competing with 2824/SW-200/9015 watches that are all 4Hz, the slower beat rate would be a competitive disadvantage.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> A Seiko rep I met in Hong Kong last year hinted that they were working on a replacement for the NE15/6r15, something to better compete with the Miyota 9015. I can't remember what clues he gave me, but I'm sure I told him it needed to be high-beat, even if that meant giving up some PR, and it would help if they made it thinner, all the things we all like about the 9015.
> 
> The NH3x/4r3x may be "pedestrian" in many people's eyes, but we've had really good experience with them. I can only remember replacing 2 or 3 in over 1500 pieces (1565 to be exact). That's a 0.13%-0.19% failure/defect rate. They may not be sexy, but they're bulletproof.


Is this different than the new 6L35 that they are using in the SARA015/SJE073? That's 3.7mm, with 45Hrs of PR and runs at 4Hz. So far it's only in that one watch though, and it costs $2100 which is definitely way above where the 9015 is. Incidentally, the multi-hand derivatives of the 6R15 all run at 4Hz, like the 6R21 in my SDGC017. Not sure why Seiko made that decision, but they did.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Wearing the Commander this AM:

View attachment 13777807


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Boring pics, but not something you often see in here.

Doc made a hell of a tropic strap, which I stumbled upon while doing research into them a while back.



















The right length (fits 6.5" with acceptable slack), the right thickness (not too), the right flex (bends nicely but still very rubber-stable), the right look (classic), and nice brushed hardware.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Boring pics, but not something you often see in here.
> 
> Doc made a hell of a tropic strap, which I stumbled upon while doing research into them a while back.
> 
> ...


I agree with your assessment of NTH tropic strap. :-! I ordered 4 pieces. Only used 1, the other 3 still not used yet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Boring pics, but not something you often see in here.
> 
> Doc made a hell of a tropic strap, which I *stumbled upon while doing research* into them a while back....


The lost art of using the search function and Google.

I salute you, sir.

In all seriousness (and speaking of research) - finding a supplier to make those straps took a little doing. The company that makes our natural rubber straps didn't have a close-enough style, but I found one in HK during the 2016 show.

The "problem" is that they gave me four different choices for which rubber compound to use, so I had to do my own research into their various properties and pros/cons. So far as I can determine, no other rubber strap suppliers use the same compound I chose.

I think most are using NBR, which isn't a *bad* choice. I'd say it's second-best to EPDM, which added about 10% to the cost. The differences between NBR and EPDM aren't huge, but based on the difference in their properties, I thought EPDM would feel and wear (over time) the closest to natural rubber.

Fun Factoid - Just to give you a window into our madness, after finally finding the strap supplier, Aaron (@synaptyx) b1tched that the long end of the strap didn't have the correct shape. The vintage tropic straps taper more, and have a squared-off tip.

I told him to pipe down.

Damned Scots. They ruined Scotland!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Fun Factoid - Just to give you a window into our madness, after finally finding the strap supplier, Aaron (@synaptyx) b1tched that the long end of the strap didn't have the correct shape. The vintage tropic straps taper more, and have a squared-off tip.


Yup. *And* they had sawtooth-shaped edge crennelations, not rectangular/stepwise


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The lost art of using the search function and Google.
> 
> I salute you, sir.












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Yup. *And* they had sawtooth-shaped edge crennelations, not rectangular/stepwise


You've just been waiting for the opportunity to use "crennelations" in a sentence, haven't you?


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Yup. *And* they had sawtooth-shaped edge crennelations, not rectangular/stepwise


IMO good rubber straps are more than just materials. What matters is the structure (holes and such) & thickness. Generally I prefer Bonetto Cinturini (not sure which type they use...) due to the nice vanilla smell and many designs. They also used to be quite cheap in the past and I heard that major companies contract them and put quite a premium price on them... Correct me if I am wrong but the almost 100 quid squale strap is made by them.

A non hole rubber, thick rubber strap will always be more uncomfortable. I also have the Tropic Rubber from Watch Gecko which I believe is NBR and its not bad but the strap holes are too far from each other.

I didn't observe any material related comfort differences between the Hirsch Pure and others.

I plan to cut my own design into the Pure to make it more comfortable because the edge finish on this strap is outstanding.









Also, happy late new year and orthodox christmas to everyone!


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Fun Factoid - Just to give you a window into our madness, after finally finding the strap supplier, Aaron (@synaptyx) b1tched that the long end of the strap didn't have the correct shape. The vintage tropic straps taper more, and have a squared-off tip.


I think I prefer the modestly tapered, rounded-pointed end. The strap is still rubberized, and hence "sticky" in operation. I imagine a squared end would prove a tad more difficult to thread through the keepers. But what do I know?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Seikogi said:


> IMO good rubber straps are more than just materials. What matters is the structure (holes and such) & thickness. Generally I prefer Bonetto Cinturini (not sure which type they use...) due to the nice vanilla smell and many designs. They also used to be quite cheap in the past and I heard that major companies contract them and put quite a premium price on them... Correct me if I am wrong but the almost 100 quid squale strap is made by them.
> 
> A non hole rubber, thick rubber strap will always be more uncomfortable. I also have the Tropic Rubber from Watch Gecko which I believe is NBR and its not bad but the strap holes are too far from each other.
> 
> ...


Bonetto uses natural rubber.

One of the reasons they get marked up by other companies is that they charge a lot for tooling when a company isn't using one of their standard catalog designs. I'm not saying all the markups are completely justified, but I've looked at the costs of doing something more custom, and it didn't make economic sense given the low production numbers I'd have.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Agent Sands said:


> Oh, if Seiko wanted to play hardball, they could eat the Swiss watch industry's lunch. Run-of-the-mill Japanese horology is so vastly superior to run-of-the-mill Swiss horology (and, no, it's not up for debate), and not just when it comes to movements. Hell, Seiko are producing hand-made enamel dials in its Presage line, something Swiss horology tends to market as premium-grade stuff at premium-grade prices.
> 
> But Seiko seemingly doesn't want to play hardball and the cultural gap seems too immense for them to deploy a strategy to successfully market their finer watches in western markets in a way that would seriously erode Swiss market share. Seiko only recently figured out that Grand Seiko watches might do well when marketed outside of Japan.


I have to disagree. IMO Seiko is the biggest disappointment in the watch industry.

What bothers me is that they have so much potential yet they completely waste it. There are so many great designs they did in the past, its overwhelming. They try to pay homage to some of them but fail in the execution because they don't seem to care for details at all. 
I believe the dial size is standard 28.5mm which they put into any case they do. The hands then seem to be randomly chosen disregarding any concerns whether the minute hand is long enough to be readable on the dial.

You get the 7S/4R/6R movements which have a day/date change that takes at least 4-6 hours to change. The movements are way too thick which results in most of their designs being bad proportioned.(look at the fat belly on the Seiko 5 line or even the SARBs) Only now they started to do something to change that which is I believe the 6L movement.

They are a huge company and its not even that they have to actually employ engineers to make a new movement. They have the blueprints of those super sexy movements they did in the 70s/80s like the 45X calibers. Beating at 36k and having an instant swap date wheel and being thinner.... that stuff was over 40 years ago!

The only things that are certain are: price increases | limited editions | quality control issues with alignments

It is really sad that japanese reputable sellers such as Seiya have to add a description to stuff that sold at a price over 2k such as the MM300 that dial misalignments are possible.

The amount of turtle limited editions is insane. They used to produce many different turtle's so why not just rerelease those and why not use the original hands. No one is complaining that Rolex uses the same hands on the Sub for the last 60years! Instead people take the initiative and mod the watches because Seiko would rather pop the catalog hands they did in a bulk order. Those LE come of course with a hefty price tag but why not if there are enough collectors or fan boys....

They have such a jungle of watches out yet they can only completely satisfy one party of clients which is >40mm and date on the dial. I understand if small micros can only afford to do date or no date but they are so big and many want no date watches or smaller dimensions. Offering the same successful model in different sizes with date no date option would make sense from every perspective, just look at Rolex or Oris or Omega on some models...

Then there are the Grand Seikos which seem to be a forum favourite company. I just don't get them... Most have no lume and all of them have incredible fit / finish. They look very elegant and I would thus put them into the dress watch category. 
Why on earth do most of them have to be few mm's thicker than a 300m NTH Sub for example?! 
Why do they such huge dimesions and since most don't have rotating bezels the dial looks even bigger. I mean IWC has huge watches but they are mostly brushed and pilot/sports types. For me GS is all about perfect execuation and elegant watches. 
And lastly, why do they ruin the more than beautiful dials with date windows?! at least give the customer an option to buy no date!

Even the Rolex Explorer homage that they did lately with a quart movement is fatter then the NTH Sub. IMO this is beyond embarrassing.

My grail watch was the MM300. I prefer the case shape, hands and dial over the Submariner and could even accept the date window but never got one due to the dimensions. The watch has a one piece case with no removable case back which I believe means more room in the case, still the watch was quite fat.
Now Seiko "upgraded" it with a new price tag, thicker case and removed the Marinemaster text on the dial and it still has that 5 dollar cheap etched prospex logo on the crown. Thanks a lot Seiko!

Sorry for the rant guys! Seiko is just an emotional topic for me because the Monster was the watch that I first loved as a mechanical and still do. It got me into this hobby and it was always my favourite watch brand. I dont want to bore the GF with this WoT and I don't visit the Seiko Forum anymore so I will leave this here.

FYI: I don't really want to compare Seiko to Swiss brands because perhaps they are worse. Idk because I never cared much about most swiss models and rather shop G-Shocks or russian watches. 
That being said I still want to get my hands on some vintage Seiko. Especially some King Seikos and the lovely Panda chrono.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Bonetto uses natural rubber.
> 
> One of the reasons they get marked up by other companies is that they charge a lot for tooling when a company isn't using one of their standard catalog designs. I'm not saying all the markups are completely justified, but I've looked at the costs of doing something more custom, and it didn't make economic sense given the low production numbers I'd have.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


I didn't know that, I thought they used the vanilla scent to cover the vulcanized rubber smell. Tks for the info.

Makes sense regarding the mark up. Some are justified, others not... And who knows which higher end brands actually use them as a supplier with a not so nice price tag.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Seikogi said:


> IMO good rubber straps are more than just materials. What matters is the structure (holes and such) & thickness. Generally I prefer Bonetto Cinturini (not sure which type they use...) due to the nice vanilla smell and many designs. They also used to be quite cheap in the past and I heard that major companies contract them and put quite a premium price on them... Correct me if I am wrong but the almost 100 quid squale strap is made by them.
> 
> A non hole rubber, thick rubber strap will always be more uncomfortable. I also have the Tropic Rubber from Watch Gecko which I believe is NBR and its not bad but the strap holes are too far from each other.
> 
> ...


Yes, the Bonetto Cinturini straps are hard to beat when it comes to rubber straps. They are my favorite rubber straps, I think I have 4 of them.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Seikogi said:


> I have to disagree. IMO Seiko is the biggest disappointment in the watch industry.


As you freely admit, you have a bit of an axe to grind here, and thus we may be talking past one another.

To be clear, I don't think much of Seiko's business strategies as they currently stand. I'm just saying that if Seiko got its act together and developed a cutthroat business plan (which it almost certainly won't), Seiko could greatly erode the Swiss watch industry's market share.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Agent Sands said:


> As you freely admit, you have a bit of an axe to grind here, and thus we may be talking past one another.
> 
> To be clear, I don't think much of Seiko's business strategies as they currently stand. I'm just saying that if Seiko got its act together and developed a cutthroat business plan (which it almost certainly won't), Seiko could greatly erode the Swiss watch industry's market share.


Could be possible, then again even if they had the best strategy there exists a general opinion that Swiss made is great in the collective mind. Idk how much marketing could influence to change that but it is not impossible. There are a lot of very well regarded Japanese cosmetics e.g.

Personally, I think the industry is a rather slow one to move/react or innovate.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Seikogi said:


> Personally, I think the industry is a rather slow one to move/react or innovate.


It's absurdly slow, which is why a company with extensive resources that was able/willing to move quickly and aggressively could really make some waves.


----------



## guspech750 (Dec 15, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Only in the interest of fairness, and since the rotor noise of the 9015 is a frequently-raised complaint


I must be one of the few that actually enjoy the sound of a rotor spinning around doing its job. Sort of like hearing my wife's mechanical heart valve or hearing the great exhaust note or supercharger wine on my car. It's a mechanical thing making music to my ears and knowing it's working doing its job.

I like it, I love it I want some more of it! LOLzzzzzz

Sent from my SM-T378V using Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



guspech750 said:


> I must be one of the few that actually enjoy the sound of a rotor spinning around doing its job. Sort of like hearing my wife's mechanical heart valve or hearing the great exhaust note or supercharger wine on my car. It's a mechanical thing making music to my ears and knowing it's working doing its job.
> 
> I like it, I love it I want some more of it! LOLzzzzzz
> 
> Sent from my SM-T378V using Tapatalk


Lol... Equivalent of open pipes on a Harley huh. An open case back so you can impress/annoy the noobs with your rotor spin within half a mile radius passing by.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gents - update on the remade links on the recent batch of NTH Subs...

It took a couple weeks longer than projected, but we got a bunch. Thank you all for your continued patience.

I think it's all of the links we've been expecting, but we won't know for certain until we go through and bundle them together, then count. It's 6 links per watch, so 3900 pieces altogether (6 links x 650 watches). 

Assuming we're good, we should be sending them out within the next week to ten days. Here's what I need from all of you, please:

1. If you still have the watch, don't sell it until you get the links.

2. If you sold it already, email me or use the contact page of the website to give us your order number, plus the name, shipping address, and email address of the person you sold it to, so we an send them the links directly. 

Please don't email us to tell us you bought the watch from someone else. That's only going to cause confusion, and we're not sending links out to every random person who emails us claiming they bought a watch from some other person.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_1767.jpg


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Are there any real life pics of the gilt Barracuda? Other than the blurry ones posted before.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Are there any real life pics of the gilt Barracuda? Other than the blurry ones posted before.


I wanted to get some today, but...shlt happened (figuratively, not literally).

If it's a nice day, I'll snap a couple tomorrow.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I wanted to get some today, but...shlt happened (figuratively, not literally).
> 
> If it's a nice day, I'll snap a couple tomorrow.












:-d:-!

If you like stupid movies, Wanderlust is great. There's a funny Alan Alda scene featuring figuratively vs. literally.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sounds like you've got them in hand, doc. Let's see... I land in BWI at 6, carry the 1.5, I'll see you at 7:30.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

One mostly in shadow, one mostly in the light.

I took a video too. Watch for that to drop soon. Gave it to my marketing guy to edit.










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> One mostly in shadow, one mostly in the light.
> 
> I took a video too. Watch for that to drop soon. Gave it to my marketing guy to edit.
> 
> ...


Looking good. I have the funds ready to go for this one.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Hot stuff


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Looks great! Was originally going to grab one but have something else in the fire at the moment.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

basso4735 said:


> Looks great! Was originally going to grab one but have something else in the fire at the moment.


Watches don't belong in fire.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

I, for one, like my watches lightly singed.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> One mostly in shadow, one mostly in the light.
> 
> I took a video too. Watch for that to drop soon. Gave it to my marketing guy to edit.
> 
> ...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Been sporting my Seaforths a lot lately. It's nice to have my favorite NTH back on the wrist today.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

TheJohnP said:


>


Jeez, that Ann Wilson could belt it out; this takes me a long way back, I swear that my car used to run better when I played this.......

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Watches don't belong in fire.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


My wallet certainly does.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> Lol... Equivalent of open pipes on a Harley huh. An open case back so you can impress/annoy the noobs with your rotor spin within half a mile radius passing by.


I have a watch with a Miyota 9015 movement and I'd rather go with: equivalent of a Ducati with dry clutch -- to the uninitiated, sounds like something is wrong; to those in the know, music to their ears.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> I have to disagree. IMO Seiko is the biggest disappointment in the watch industry.
> 
> What bothers me is that they have so much potential yet they completely waste it. There are so many great designs they did in the past, its overwhelming. They try to pay homage to some of them but fail in the execution because they don't seem to care for details at all.
> I believe the dial size is standard 28.5mm which they put into any case they do. The hands then seem to be randomly chosen disregarding any concerns whether the minute hand is long enough to be readable on the dial.
> ...


28.2mm. And that's only for most of the divers, and a lot of the smaller Seiko 5 models. The bigger 5s (40mm+) use a large dial size. The MM300 is actually smaller, 28mm even, and the SLA017 uses a 30mm dial. That's why you've never seen a "62MAS mod" putting an SLA017 dial in an SKX. Can't do it, whereas the MM300 dial fits with a bit of minor surgery. I'm not sure how big the SLA025 dial is because I've never seen one for sale, but the Alpinist dials are larger, as are all of the dress watch dials. The Cocktail is something like 31 or 32mm.

What the 7S/4R have going for them is that they are dirt cheap. Yes the date change is lazy, and the rated accuracy is pretty weak (my 7S runs at +3, FWIW), but their reliability is _legendary_, and you can outright replace them for all of about $50. Where Seiko does have a genuine weakness is the step up from that. The Miyota 9015 is just better than the 6R15, which would probably explain why basically nobody uses the NE15 in anything. It's 4Hz and 3.9mm, while the 6R is 3Hz and 5.3mm. The 6R2x multi-hand derivatives oddly operate at 4Hz and lose a few hours of PR as a result. The 8L35 can compete with the ETA-2892, but Seiko really doesn't have a good answer for the ETA-2824 or the Miyota, and as prices for 6R15 watches keep rising ($500 has become $1000) they get harder and harder to justify vs. something with a Sellita in it.

If the 6L35 is supposed to finally solve that problem, it needs to start showing up in watches a lot more affordable than the SARA015.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> I have a watch with a Miyota 9015 movement and I'd rather go with: equivalent of a Ducati with dry clutch -- to the uninitiated, sounds like something is wrong; to those in the know, music to their ears.


Dropping the dry clutch on a Ducati sounds like dropping a wrench into a toolbox.

Best way I can describe it.

Better than "potato, potato, potato" as a description for the exhaust note of a Harley Davidson.

Hard to remember my old Triumph straight-3 cylinder well enough, but my guess is it was something like "chug-a-lug-a-lug".

My old Yamaha FZR rice-rocket was just straight up "wup-wup-wup-WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!"


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> Could be possible, then again even if they had the best strategy there exists a general opinion that Swiss made is great in the collective mind. Idk how much marketing could influence to change that but it is not impossible. There are a lot of very well regarded Japanese cosmetics e.g.
> 
> Personally, I think the industry is a rather slow one to move/react or innovate.


I think it could be done. Granted it's not exactly the same thing, but uber high-end Japanese knives are held in much higher regard than their heavy, dull, soft German rivals. Japanese knife making goes back centuries though. Credor has nowhere near the heritage of a brand like Patek, JLC, or Breguet, but at the same time, Rolex isn't all that old either, so it isn't JUST about heritage.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Dropping the dry clutch on a Ducati sounds like dropping a wrench into a toolbox.
> 
> Best way I can describe it.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> I think it could be done. Granted it's not exactly the same thing, but uber high-end Japanese knives are held in much higher regard than their heavy, dull, soft German rivals. Japanese knife making goes back centuries though. Credor has nowhere near the heritage of a brand like Patek, JLC, or Breguet, but at the same time, Rolex isn't all that old either, so it isn't JUST about heritage.


Well japanese sword art is legendary. I have done some Kendo a few years ago... swords in japan are like beer in germany, part of the culture. Rockstead makes some amazing knives with amazing finish.

Regarding watches I have mixed feelings. Someone posted a recent survey regarding perceived popularity/innovations by watch brands with wealthier households. To my surprise lots of high end fashion brands made it in the top list.

Seems that the general public is more into those (fashion X watch) things although I don't fully trust any statistic.
Checking current offerings I feel that the price increase they have been doing lately is very much noticeable.

Its not what it used to be a few years ago where I got a Seiko Monster (not too long ago) for 220 quids online. 
Nowadays they slap a new dial, put a 6R into them and go above the 500 mark. They discontinue forum favourites which offered great value and introduce lots of LE's without added innovation. Plenty of guys are happy to pay x2 for a different dial color, plenty are not.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> [
> I think it could be done. Granted it's not exactly the same thing, but uber high-end Japanese knives are held in much higher regard than their heavy, dull, soft German rivals. Japanese knife making goes back centuries though. Credor has nowhere near the heritage of a brand like Patek, JLC, or Breguet, but at the same time, Rolex isn't all that old either, so it isn't JUST about heritage.


Yeah, I think they could do it. It would take investment and savvy, but it could be done.

The public at large doesn't know much about watches, after all (which is why all that Kickstarter "affordable luxury" guff works on so many people). A good, smart campaign could go far if matched with a sound business strategy.



Seikogi said:


> Its not what it used to be a few years ago where I got a Seiko Monster (not too long ago) for 220 quids online.
> Nowadays they slap a new dial, put a 6R into them and go above the 500 mark. They discontinue forum favourites which offered great value and introduce lots of LE's without added innovation. Plenty of guys are happy to pay x2 for a different dial color, plenty are not.


To my eyes, Seiko moved prices up because they realized they could. And that's fair, even if we who loved the screamingly good bargains of yore miss the good bargains of yore. It seems to me that watches that were amazingly good deals are now priced about fairly, given the market demand.

But in terms of what pieces they've been releasing, well, I think Seiko could do much better. Seiko does very badly when it comes to organizing and promoting their too-numerous product lines.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Agent Sands said:


> But in terms of what pieces they've been releasing, well, I think Seiko could do much better. Seiko does very badly when it comes to organizing and promoting their too-numerous product lines.


Seiko I think also has yet to really recognize the trend back to more moderate watch sizes. The SLA025 is a Panzer IV for the wrist, and all of the GS divers are equally humongous. It's baffling that Seiko doesn't bother to try and compete with watches like the SMP.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > But in terms of what pieces they've been releasing, well, I think Seiko could do much better. Seiko does very badly when it comes to organizing and promoting their too-numerous product lines.
> ...


Yeah, I rag on the Swiss brands for being slow to recognize market trends, but Seiko is arguably even worse at that.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Sounds like you've got them in hand, doc. Let's see... I land in BWI at 6, carry the 1.5, I'll see you at 7:30.


Yours is already on its way to Watch Gauge.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Yeah, I rag on the Swiss brands for being slow to recognize market trends, but Seiko is arguably even worse at that.


They should all hire me to be their consultant.

I'm available.

Just sayin'...

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> If the 6L35 is supposed to finally solve that problem, it needs to start showing up in watches a lot more affordable than the SARA015.


I have to wonder if this isn't the movement the guy in HK was talking about.

Yes, I see that the SARA015 is $2300 on Seiya Japan, but that doesn't necessarily tell us much about what the movement costs, if we take Seiko's past history of taking movements which were exclusively available in their own models, and making them available for wholesale.

The most recent example I can point to is their auto-chrono movement, the NE88. Before they made that movement available for wholesale, you couldn't find it in any Seiko Ananta model under $3k. Most were north of $3500, some up to $5k. Look at close-out and used prices, and they're all still north of $1500-$2000.

But now that it can be purchased wholesale, I see some microbrands getting the retail prices on some NE88 models down to ~$1,000, though most with decent specs will be closer to $1200-$1500. Take the same sort of price decline and apply it to the SARA/6L35, it's easy to see a $600-$700 retail price from micros using that movement once it's available wholesale.

What strikes me is the beat rate and thinness, plus the PR. The whole package seems like it would compete well against the 9015, and I have to wonder how they could come up with some way to differentiate a *different* calibre to slot in below it, within the 9015 cost range.

What I mean is - if this ISN'T the 9015-competitor, but some other yet-to-be revealed calibre is, how will Seiko effectively differentiate the two from each other, in order to justify the higher cost of one over the other? Is the 9015-competitor going to be thicker, lower beat rate, etc? That's not going to help it compete against the 9015 as well as the 6L35 would.

This would actually be a 9015-killer, depending on the price and defect rate. It's got the same beat rate, but a higher PR and a lower thickness (depending on the hands-post height).


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Yours is already on its way to Watch Gauge.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


And I headed south from airport...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I rag on the Swiss brands for being slow to recognize market trends, but Seiko is arguably even worse at that.
> ...


If Seiko hires you as a consultant, you must promise me you'll do two things:

1) Take 'em for all they're worth

2) Get me a perfect Sea Lion reissue


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Agent Sands said:


> If Seiko hires you as a consultant, you must promise me you'll do two things:
> 
> 1) Take 'em for all they're worth
> 
> 2) Get me a perfect Sea Lion reissue


Oooooo.... a Nth Tuna with gilt perhaps... and sapphire glass!! Now that I would have a crack at Doc!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> What I mean is - if this ISN'T the 9015-competitor, but some other yet-to-be revealed calibre is, how will Seiko effectively differentiate the two from each other, in order to justify the higher cost of one over the other? Is the 9015-competitor going to be thicker, lower beat rate, etc? That's not going to help it compete against the 9015 as well as the 6L35 would.
> 
> This would actually be a 9015-killer, depending on the price and defect rate. It's got the same beat rate, but a higher PR and a lower thickness (depending on the hands-post height).


Yeah it would be logical for them to go after the 9015 and the ETA/Sellita directly with the 6L35. I'm not really sure why the SARA015 is as expensive as it is. The SARX055 is almost the same watch, but has the 6R15 and its case is actually more expensive Titanium instead of SS, and it costs $1000. So reverting to SS like in prior SARX models, and putting in the 6L35 more than doubles the price? That seems weird. Obviously Seiko didn't go to the trouble of developing a new movement (or maybe more accurately rehashing the old 4L) for one watch, so it will be very interesting to see what other models the 6L appears in further down the line, and at what price points. The only other real reference point is the recently reintroduced Marine Master, which is still using the 8L35 and is now $2,800. Seiko seems to want to reserve the 4 and 5Hz versions of the 8L for their TOTL non GS models, but they must know that there is a real price ceiling on the 6R15, and I think watches like the SARX055 have already hit that ceiling. Nobody is going to buy a $1500 Seiko with a 6R15 in it.

That would have to mean that if they want to make an automatic dive watch between their $1K 6R15 based models and the new $2800 MM, and that is a _huge_ gap, the 6L35 would have to fit the bill.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'm not really sure why the SARA015 is as expensive as it is. The SARX055 is almost the same watch, but has the 6R15 and its case is actually more expensive Titanium instead of SS, and it costs $1000.


The SARA015 is an LE release that has the "Zaratsu" finishing they apply to Grand Seikos, and it has a new, complicated front-loading watch case for additional thinness over the SARX055.

That's the stated rationale behind the price, anyway.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Agent Sands said:


> The SARA015 is an LE release that has the "Zaratsu" finishing they apply to Grand Seikos, and it has a new, complicated front-loading watch case for additional thinness over the SARX055.
> 
> That's the stated rationale behind the price, anyway.


The finishing is not such a big price increase tbh, since the sbdc053 allegedly also has zaratsu line (not across the whole case, just one line, but still). And it has diashield. So.....

Imo the high price of sara015 is in line with the price increases on most seiko's other new models. No true justification beyond Seiko feeling like they should get this much for their watches now.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Also, here's a thought. If seiko turns the 6l35 into a miyota9015 competitor with similar price, then that pulls the rug out from underneath Seiko's feet in terms of their own watch pricing structure. If 6l35 starts popping up in $500 micros, then there's no more justification at all for seiko's presage & prospex model prices... the 6r15 is completely destroyed and 4r35 is turned even further into "the affordable movement". 

Most likely, the seiko branch dealing with watch models and pricing has too big of a horse in this to allow their movement making branch to go all out on a value movement.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > The SARA015 is an LE release that has the "Zaratsu" finishing they apply to Grand Seikos, and it has a new, complicated front-loading watch case for additional thinness over the SARX055.
> ...


Oh, like any price justification it's really just a matter of "We think we can get people to buy it for X." Seiko has previously used the "limited edition" tag to justify the high prices of the upper-tier non-GS Seiko models.

I don't know what the actual cost of applying Zaratsu to Seiko cases is, but I suspect it isn't all *that* much, given that folks have said the Casio Oceanus has comparable finishing.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Idk, I suspect Zaratsu (blade) polishing is actually really expensive, since you have to get a lot of damascus katana blades and rub them against the watch case often enough to polish the tops of the iron atoms.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Idk, I suspect Zaratsu (blade) polishing is actually really expensive, since you have to get a lot of damascus katana blades and rub them against the watch case often enough to polish the tops of the iron atoms.


Gotta get those atoms SHINY.

My understanding is that what Seiko calls "Zaratsu" simply involves applying a rotating tin plate to case by hand, a task which requires a veteran case-polisher to do when the angles are as complicated as they are on a lot of those very angular Grand Seiko cases. But it's not a fundamentally complicated process.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yeah. Idk if it was in this thread or somewhere on f21, but "Zaratsu" was a japanified variant of an american or european brand making the polishing machines.

I think the main diff. between the zaratsu-style polishing and ... let's say "microbrand" style polishing is that in zaratsu, they push the target part against the flat side of a rotating tin disc and don't really move the case much (if at all) while in contact, whereas normal polishing pushes the target part into the round part of a disc or a buffing wheel, possibly twisting the case as they go. Hence the flatter polished surface and less reflection distortions in zaratsu polishing.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Zaratsu - me like shiny:






Don't see any super-secret sauce here.........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Ragl said:


> Zaratsu - me like shiny:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just goes to show how much advertising work goes toward romanticizing conventional industrial processes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Two pages of Seiko-related stuff? Really? 

Alright, I'll be your Huckleberry.

Here's Seiko's new model development and pricing strategy, in a nutshell - lots of stuff for the global, under $400 mass market, and a bit less stuff over $400, primarily aimed at the JDM (Japanese Domestic Market).

Anyone here see a lot of people on WUS talking about the Seiko Gallante or Ananta lines, like, they own one? No, you don't. And yet, someone must be buying them. More than likely, it's someone in Japan. How many Credor discussions are there in other parts of the forum, parts not focused on Seiko?

We often forget that the WIS market is a tiny, self-obsessed segment of the global market. We tend to try to make sense of things from our own perspectives, when very often companies aren't even thinking about us.

Does the $2300 price tag on the SARA015 make sense to us, even if it's got special finishing and it's an LE? Not if the same movement can be found in a $500-$700 microbrand. 

But it's not available in a $600-$700 micro yet, and they're not worried about selling it outside Japan. I just did a Google Shopping search for one, and didn't find any, at all. I had to go to JDM sites to find one.

We can't get wrapped around the axle trying to figure out what Seiko will do based on what we'd do if we were in charge at Seiko. It's better to just look at what Seiko has done in the past, and apply those patterns to the future.

They have a habit of focusing a lot on the JDM, with higher-priced stuff, using movements which aren't available wholesale - YET. But those movements sometimes become available for wholesale, and the retail prices of the non-Seiko watches using those movements are often much less expensive.

Miyota isn't much different. Recall their Citizen Signature models with the 9015 pre-dated micros having access to that movement, and they were more expensive than micros using that movement now, some years later. 

If you knew what those movements used to cost, you'd know the Signature models were sold at a very nice premium to their production cost. But now, you can buy the Grand Classic for $600, often less, yet some sellers are still trying to get $750 for them, a remnant of their previous retail pricing.

If Seiko has a movement with low enough R&D investment or they can produce it in high-enough volume to sell it for a price which makes it a 9015 competitor, why invest in the R&D to come up with a different movement, when we'd expect it to be very similar to what they already have? 

It'll be easier to amortize their up-front R&D costs by making more of an existing calibre. That makes a lot more sense than investing more in R&D to do something different, if it over-complicates their product range.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Two pages of Seiko-related stuff? Really?


Hey, at least it wasn't two pages of SEIKO VERSUS ROLEX stuff.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Well, obviously, rolex doesn't have zaratsu.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Were we talking about the Swatch Sistem51 recently?

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4866363&share_fid=13788&share_type=t

For me, so much of this Swiss-not-Swiss talk seems to revolve around the false binary dichotomy of Swiss vs Chinese, in which Swiss is more expensive by default because it's not Chinese, and it's better, so don't question the numbers. The problem I always see is Japan.

If the Japanese can make more reliable mechanical movements, which are also more affordable, despite the high labor rates there, then it makes me think the Swiss are just addicted to over-charging, and maybe just incapable of matching Japan move for move, even if both are outsourcing a good bit to places like China or Malaysia.

The industry blogs and most retailers I talk to don't have any real insights into what goes on within the Japanese watch companies, at least not to the same degree that we seem able to peer into the Swiss companies. I wish I could get some sense for why Japan always seems able to make a profit without a lot of drama or gimmicks. It seems like the Swiss companies are just too mired in their own way of doing things, and can't figure out how to right their ship, or are unwilling to face the difficult necessities of doing so.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how things play out as we near the 2020 ETA cutoff.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> If the Japanese can make more reliable mechanical movements, which are also more affordable, despite the high labor rates there, then it makes me think the Swiss are just addicted to over-charging, and maybe just incapable of matching Japan move for move, even if both are outsourcing a good bit to places like China or Malaysia.


Almost certainly a "bit of column A, bit of column B" situation.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that the whole "made in Switzerland" thing doesn't add much value in Japan. In fact, I might even suggest in much of Asia. I've spent some time in China, and they're pretty happy with their own stuff. And there are LOTS of people over there...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys - regarding the remade links, please note - 

If you bought the watch from one of our retailers - you'll get the links from the retailer, not us. The retailers should be contacting their customers directly within the next 2 weeks (I'm guessing), as we're just sending them their links now.

If you bought the watch from someone else, who bought the watch from us - that person needs to tell us they sold the watch to you, rather than you telling us you bought the watch from them.

Why?

Record-keeping.

We don't have a record of every sale our retailers made. They do. 

Limited supply.

We don't have unlimited supply. We're not mailing links to anyone who emails us to say "I got the watch now". Nope. We're contacting the original purchasers who bought the watch from us, and they need to tell us "this other guy has the watch now". 

Please don't email us with details of someone else's purchase. Doing that only slows the process down.

If you sold the watch you bought from us, and want to let us know, please do. If you want to let the retailer know you sold the watch, and who bought it, please do. We're keeping records for that. Otherwise, if you don't contact us, we'll be contacting you, and if you don't respond, we'll just send you the links.

If you bought the watch second-hand, you'll want to make sure you go back to the original purchaser and make sure they tell us you have it now.

Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.

PS - Before anyone asks - all the Subs coming in now have the correct links, albeit there are still arrows on them, so don't be fooled into thinking they've got split-pins. They're still solid screws. We're also going through and replacing the links on any watches we still have in inventory.

I think the bracelet vendor added the arrows because the links are symmetrical in profile now, whereas before it was easy to tell the inner surface from the outer surface.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Let's step away from the Seiko and Swiss talk a bit. Saw this on FB. New L&H model has dropped


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Forever8895 said:


> Let's step away from the Seiko and Swiss talk a bit. Saw this on FB. New L&H model has dropped


:-x :-s :-x


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> Let's step away from the Seiko and Swiss talk a bit. Saw this on FB. New L&H model has dropped


Uhm....yeah.

I saw that guy post his Kickstarter project in one of the Facebook groups. I tried not to sound like a jerk when I suggested the L&H moniker might cause confusion with Lew & Huey, which is often abbreviated as L&H.

He said he'd never heard of Lew & Huey.

Really?









It doesn't bother me, because he's not going to hurt my business at all, and I don't think he was trying to leverage the Lew & Huey reputation. I was just pointing out that it's not a good thing if someone goes looking for your brand online and finds a bunch of links to pages which are about some other brand.

He didn't seem to get it, or didn't want to get it. Some other guys tried to help him get it, but I don't think that worked.

I don't think it will end up mattering. The project is only 4% of goal with just 10 backers after launching on the 3rd, after an aborted earlier project which hit 2%. It seems like most projects that don't hit the goal in the first 48 hours are doomed these days.

Everyone wants to be a player. No one wants to put in the time on the practice field.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> Uhm....yeah.
> 
> I saw that guy post his Kickstarter project in one of the Facebook groups. I tried not to sound like a jerk when I suggested the L&H moniker might cause confusion with Lew & Huey, which is often abbreviated as L&H.
> 
> ...


Maybe it will help him if you post a link to the Kickstarter campaign on your website!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

docvail said:


>


Doc, I'm interested in how the gilt-relief dials on the Barracuda Vintage Black and Carolina compare visually to the gilt dial on the Amphion Dark Gilt. Are there pictures/videos that can illustrate the differences, or is it something that has to be seen in the flesh to appreciate? For instance, I'm wondering if the minute track on a gilt-relief dial appears recessed, which wouldn't be the case on the Amphion Dark Gilt?

Thanks!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tc3 said:


> Doc, I'm interested in how the gilt-relief dials on the Barracuda Vintage Black and Carolina compare visually to the gilt dial on the Amphion Dark Gilt. Are there pictures/videos that can illustrate the differences, or is it something that has to be seen in the flesh to appreciate? For instance, I'm wondering if the minute track on a gilt-relief dial appears recessed, which wouldn't be the case on the Amphion Dark Gilt?
> 
> Thanks!!


No, there are no side-by-side pics, and there won't be any, unless/until someone gets an Amphion Dark Gilt and either a Carolina or Barracuda together in the same photo. I can't do it, because I sold my Amphion Dark Gilt, and I've shipped all the Barracudas to our retail partners.

The gilt bits on the new pieces don't look recessed, but only because the upper layer of black simply isn't thick enough to make it appear recessed.

The biggest differences will be two, mainly - first, the Amphion had raised, applied indices, whereas the gilt relief dials don't, and the gilt relief is going to reflect the light, whereas the gold-print on the Amphion and Barracuda aren't really reflective.

The gilt relief isn't something that's going to easily translate to photography. Ask anyone with a Carolina, and they'll tell you pics just don't do it justice. Video comes closer. It's really about how the light plays on the gilt bits, and you just don't get the full effect in a 2D static picture.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Uhm....yeah.
> 
> I saw that guy post his Kickstarter project in one of the Facebook groups. I tried not to sound like a jerk when I suggested the L&H moniker might cause confusion with Lew & Huey, which is often abbreviated as L&H.
> 
> ...


I liked that watch the first time I saw it, when it was called the Airman and it was a functional GMT.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Obviously not the same as the 'Cuda vs. Amphion, but here's a side-by-side of a gilt relief MKII vs. an applied Tudor. This should give you an idea, at least.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

tc3 said:


> ... or is it something that has to be seen in the flesh to appreciate?
> 
> ...
> 
> Thanks!!





docvail said:


> ...
> The gilt relief isn't something that's going to easily translate to photography. Ask anyone with a Carolina, and they'll tell you pics just don't do it justice.
> 
> ...


^ This


----------



## ocoee (Oct 4, 2018)

Doc's quick video showing the Carolina gilt-relief nicely:


----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Does the future hold any chance of an NTH sub with a smooth, non-rotating bezel that could be worn while “exploring”? Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

ocoee said:


> Doc's quick video showing the Carolina gilt-relief nicely:


Damn woman I'm recording this!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Kinesis said:


> Does the future hold any chance of an NTH sub with a smooth, non-rotating bezel that could be worn while "exploring"? Thanks.


Check out the Smiths Everest PRS-25 sold by Timefactors.com. It comes in 2 sizes 36mm and 40mm with a 9015 movement (same as NTH subs) and newest versions have a ratcheting dive clasp, all at a fair price.









Note the interesting (odd?) hand lengths.

The 40mm is 14.5mm thick vs. the NTH at 11.5mm.
The 36mm is only 11.3mm thick.

Older 40mm Everest have a different (IMHO inferior) dial without the trick clasp.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Yeah, if only the guys at NTH could figure out a three-hander so we could quit making our own....










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Apogee84 (Jun 27, 2008)

Davekaye90 said:


> I liked that watch the first time I saw it, when it was called the Airman and it was a functional GMT.


Ok, I get that the company name is a little unfortunate given the fame of Lew and Huey and the Kickstarter campaign doesn't have a snowball's chance but why isn't it a functional GMT? Looks like a decent watch to me.

Now if Doc turned his considerable talents to a 24 hr dual-time GMT, that would be most impressive! Until then, I will wait patiently for the re-issue of the Nacken Modern Black.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Anyone here see a lot of people on WUS talking about the Seiko Gallante or Ananta lines, like, they own one? No, you don't. And yet, someone must be buying them. More than likely, it's someone in Japan. How many Credor discussions are there in other parts of the forum, parts not focused on Seiko?


FWIW, I'm in Tokyo now and was just in Waka watching 2 different couples buying those crazy expensive Gallante watches and looking at Credors.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Apogee84 said:


> Ok, I get that the company name is a little unfortunate given the fame of Lew and Huey and the Kickstarter campaign doesn't have a snowball's chance but why isn't it a functional GMT? Looks like a decent watch to me.
> 
> Now if Doc turned his considerable talents to a 24 hr dual-time GMT, that would be most impressive! Until then, I will wait patiently for the re-issue of the Nacken Modern Black.


Not my comment, but I'll bet he was referring to the Glycine Airman, which has a pretty strong resemblance to this. And as to the "true GMT", along with many other definitions, it doesn't have a second hour-hand like the Glycine (and many others). It's "just" a 24 hour watch. GMT usually means that the watch has two hour hands. And FWIW, the Glycine can be had for less.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Kinesis said:


> Does the future hold any chance of an NTH sub with a smooth, non-rotating bezel that could be worn while "exploring"? Thanks.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That wouldn't be a "Sub". That would be something else.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Apogee84 said:


> Ok, I get that the company name is a little unfortunate given the fame of Lew and Huey and the Kickstarter campaign doesn't have a snowball's chance but why isn't it a functional GMT? Looks like a decent watch to me.
> 
> Now if Doc turned his considerable talents to a 24 hr dual-time GMT, that would be most impressive! Until then, I will wait patiently for the re-issue of the Nacken Modern Black.


I've looked at making a GMT. Unfortunately, I just don't like the movement choices for the costs.

I keep hoping Orient will open up their movements for wholesale, but so far, no dice.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Remember when doc still had a functioning brain?

Edit: not gmt related.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Not my comment, but I'll bet he was referring to the Glycine Airman, which has a pretty strong resemblance to this. And as to the "true GMT", along with many other definitions, it doesn't have a second hour-hand like the Glycine (and many others). It's "just" a 24 hour watch. GMT usually means that the watch has two hour hands. And FWIW, the Glycine can be had for less.


^This.

It appears they took a GMT movement, and removed the 12-hour hand, to make it just a 24 hour watch.

I get that a lot of watch enthusiasts dream of someday producing their own watch, and while it isn't brain surgery or rocket science, it isn't as easy as sketching a design on a napkin, having a factory produce it, and selling it on Kickstarter.

Imagine never having had any music lessons, then someone hands you a guitar and says you go on stage in 6 hours. The difference between liking watches and making watches is like the difference between liking music and making music.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rusty's renders are just next level these days.

Side by side comparison between 2016 launch image vs updated 3D render, plus real-world photo...


----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

docvail said:


> That wouldn't be a "Sub". That would be something else.


So you're saying there's a chance. Thanks, can't wait!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> ^This.
> 
> It appears they took a GMT movement, and removed the 12-hour hand, to make it just a 24 hour watch.
> 
> ...


Cmon, its just shelf parts from an alibaba catalog. Your secret's safe with us.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, just FYI, we're not going to have ANY of the Nacken Modern Blue or the Barracuda Vintage Black available from the NTH website. They're only going to be available from our retail partners. 

We've got partners in the USA, Canada, the UK, the EU, Hong Kong, Singapore, and we'll soon be announcing a new partner in Indonesia. Please feel free to contact them to register your interest.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Grrrrrrrr....double post.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

One Barracuda Vintage Black No-Date headed my way via WatchGauge.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> One mostly in shadow, one mostly in the light.
> 
> I took a video too. Watch for that to drop soon. Gave it to my marketing guy to edit.


Purdy.

I increasingly appreciate what you did with the bezels on this line. Not just because of the benefits of the material itself, but because I've come to realize that I really don't like the high-gloss look of most ceramic diving bezels.

It's particularly off-putting, I think, with the current generation Rolex Sub and its derivatives, which is a case of the prime tool-watch diving design yielding to a "luxury" watch aesthetic (down to the utterly naff ROLEXROLEXROLEX branding that now circles the dial). I didn't make this connection until recently, but I think that's the main reason that when Rolex and Tudor debuted dueling Pepsi GMTs, I actually preferred the Tudor.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> One Barracuda Vintage Black No-Date headed my way via WatchGauge.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The same thing from the same place is heading my way. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> Rusty's renders are just next level these days.
> 
> Side by side comparison between 2016 launch image vs updated 3D render, plus real-world photo...
> 
> ...


Are you bringing back the Santa Cruz?

Can't think of any other reason Rusty would be updating a rendering.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheJohnP said:


> Are you bringing back the Santa Cruz?
> 
> Can't think of any other reason Rusty would be updating a rendering.


Yep. Got more coming in this spring.


----------



## Apogee84 (Jun 27, 2008)

dmjonez said:


> Not my comment, but I'll bet he was referring to the Glycine Airman, which has a pretty strong resemblance to this. And as to the "true GMT", along with many other definitions, it doesn't have a second hour-hand like the Glycine (and many others). It's "just" a 24 hour watch. GMT usually means that the watch has two hour hands. And FWIW, the Glycine can be had for less.


The Glycine Airman comes in two versions, "The Purist" and "The GMT". The Purist is a true 24 hour watch with a second time zone on the bezel. This is how the Airman was originally designed based on input from pilots back in 1952 and as released in 1953. The GMT version has a 4th hand that tracks a 2nd time zone but the problem has always been that the regular hour hand on the GMT version is a standard 12 hour hand on a 24 hour dial. Both versions are GMT watches. There are folks that like each design and that's fine. I personally don't like having a 12 hour hand with a 24 hour dial and enjoy a true 24 hour watch. The design of the L&H Atlantic closely resembles the purist version of the Airman. The one improvement is a lumed bezel that allows for tracking the 2nd time zone in low-light conditions.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> Yep. Got more coming in this spring.


Noooo! I don't want the market price of mine to go down!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We're going to start mailing out the remade NTH Subs links this coming week, gents.

If you sold yours, please let us know ASAP, using the contact form on our website, or by email to [email protected].

We're happy to send the links directly to whomever now owns the watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Noooo! I don't want the market price of mine to go down!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I doubt it'll have much effect. We're only making 50 for this run - 25 with date, and 25 no-date.

Considering the Santa Cruz was one of the more popular versions of the Subs, and we made more because of it, the secondary market prices seem to have held up pretty well.

Looking at Watch Recon, they all seem to sell for north of $500, except for one which was given away for $400 last fall.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> I doubt it'll have much effect. We're only making 50 for this run - 25 with date, and 25 no-date.
> 
> Considering the Santa Cruz was one of the more popular versions of the Subs, and we made more because of it, the secondary market prices seem to have held up pretty well.
> 
> Looking at Watch Recon, they all seem to sell for north of $500, except for one which was given away for $400 last fall.


It's ok...I'm not selling it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Apogee84 said:


> The Glycine Airman comes in two versions, "The Purist" and "The GMT". The Purist is a true 24 hour watch with a second time zone on the bezel. This is how the Airman was originally designed based on input from pilots back in 1952 and as released in 1953. The GMT version has a 4th hand that tracks a 2nd time zone but the problem has always been that the regular hour hand on the GMT version is a standard 12 hour hand on a 24 hour dial. Both versions are GMT watches. There are folks that like each design and that's fine. I personally don't like having a 12 hour hand with a 24 hour dial and enjoy a true 24 hour watch. The design of the L&H Atlantic closely resembles the purist version of the Airman. The one improvement is a lumed bezel that allows for tracking the 2nd time zone in low-light conditions.
> 
> View attachment 13796879


I like the 4-hander with 12-hr dial better than the 3-hand with 24-hr dial. I can't force my brain to recognize 12 being at the bottom of the dial.

I didn't realize until seeing that pic how close the L&H design is to the Glyince, right down to the elongated tail on the hour hand. I don't get it. Why bother making such a similar design when you can pick up a new Glycine for $500-$700?

The L&H is ~$503 on Kickstarter (on a strap). You can find an Airman on a bracelet for $550 online right now. As similar as the designs are, I think the Glycine is easier to read, at a minimum, if not better looking (in my opinion - especially the blue dial).


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Apogee84 said:


> The Glycine Airman comes in two versions, "The Purist" and "The GMT". The Purist is a true 24 hour watch with a second time zone on the bezel. This is how the Airman was originally designed based on input from pilots back in 1952 and as released in 1953. The GMT version has a 4th hand that tracks a 2nd time zone but the problem has always been that the regular hour hand on the GMT version is a standard 12 hour hand on a 24 hour dial. Both versions are GMT watches. There are folks that like each design and that's fine. I personally don't like having a 12 hour hand with a 24 hour dial and enjoy a true 24 hour watch. The design of the L&H Atlantic closely resembles the purist version of the Airman. The one improvement is a lumed bezel that allows for tracking the 2nd time zone in low-light conditions.
> 
> View attachment 13796879


It actually comes in over a dozen versions. The Double Twelve, the SST, the Sphair, the DC-4, the Base 22, the No. 1, the 18, the Airfighter, the Airman 46, the 44 Bronze, and more vintage versions. But you asked why the other poster didn't think the "L&H" was a GMT, and I gave you the popular distinction between the Purist and the GMT. As you yourself pointed out. I'm pretty sure, though I didn't make the comment myself, that it was tongue-in-cheek. How about we segue back to the regular thread?

Watch Photo as a lead-in:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> It actually comes in over a dozen versions. The Double Twelve, the SST, the Sphair, the DC-4, the Base 22, the No. 1, the 18, the Airfighter, the Airman 46, the 44 Bronze, and more vintage versions. But you asked why the other poster didn't think the "L&H" was a GMT, and I gave you the popular distinction between the Purist and the GMT. As you yourself pointed out. I'm pretty sure, though I didn't make the comment myself, that it was tongue-in-cheek. How about we segue back to the regular thread?
> 
> Watch Photo as a lead-in:
> 
> View attachment 13797223


It ain't the length of your wing.

It's the girth of your engine.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> It ain't the length of your wing.
> 
> It's the girth of your engine.


Next time I go to work, I'll get you a shot with a bigger motor.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Next time I go to work, I'll get you a shot with a bigger motor.


Keep it in the hanger, Dave.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Keep it in the hanger, Dave.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> View attachment 13797279


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jokes and dogs aside...

First - wait 'till you see what Rusty's been working on. Remember the animation he ginned up for the Barracuda Vintage Black? This one's gonna make that one look like it was done by my idiot nephews using a box of crayons.

Secondly - I've got a "here's what's coming in 2019" email/blog post planned for sometime in the next couple weeks, but since it's just us girls here, I'll give you cats a preview of the preview....

1. For April/May(ish) - More of some previous versions of the NTH Subs - we're bringing back the Barracuda Blue, the Barracuda Brown, the Nacken Vintage Blue, more of the Nacken Modern Blue, the Nacken Modern Black, the Renegade, the Scorpene Black, and like I said earlier, the Santa Cruz.

































(^Seriously, tell me Rusty's 3D's aren't about as close to the real-world pics as you can get.)

2. Also for April/May(ish) - More new versions of the NTH Subs - at least two, if not three special editions only available through our retail partners, including one by a semi-well-known customizer, plus two new production models, the Odin Black and Odin Blue, all of which will be revealed soon.

3. For later in the year (~June/July-ish) - We'll likely make more of some of the other recent vintage Subs designs, almost certainly the Skipjack, and maybe the Nacken Vintage White, plus some more new versions we've been working on (we've got at least 3 or 4 ready for production, just not sure which ones we'll make first). Assuming the Barracuda Vintage Black is a hit, we'll make more of it, and probably come up with some other gilt-relief designs.

4. Q3/Q4 - We've also got a plan to do a somewhat more modern-styled, beefier "L/XL" version of the Subs - same spirit, but slightly different, and somewhat larger (42mm-44mm). Think of it as a mash-up of vintage Sea-Dweller and modern Pelagos. We're still designing it, but my hope is to get it into production in time to make delivery before the end-of-year holidays, if not late Summer/early Fall (that's August/September for those of you south of the equator).

That's where my focus is at the moment. I plan to make the NTH Subs a permanent part of the product portfolio, so that we've always got a batch in production, with delivery staggered every few months. That's our bread-and-butter, don't-need-to-reinvent-the-wheel model.

We've gotten people asking us to make a "basic 3-hander" (and we've had one on the drawing board for more than 2 years now), more of the DevilRay, more of the Tropics, and I was thinking about doing an updated version of the Phantom, but all of those projects are on hold until I see how the next 4-6 months go.

I'm not planning anything off-the-wall, like a Swiss GMT or chrono (thought about doing them, decided against it, at least for now).

There just aren't enough hours in the day or dollars in the bank for me to take on more than what we've already got planned.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> I've looked at making a GMT. Unfortunately, I just don't like the movement choices for the costs.
> 
> I keep hoping Orient will open up their movements for wholesale, but so far, no dice.


Just to elaborate, since it keeps coming up...

I like to keep things thin. I'd like to make a GMT with the ETA 2893-2, but the cost of the movements would force an $800-$900 retail price, minimum, possibly >$1k, and I just don't want to get caught up in the "for that kind of money, I can buy a brand name" stuff. And honestly, I don't trust ETA as a supplier, nor do I like Sellita as an alternative.

I could use the modified ETA 2836-2, where the day wheel becomes the GMT hand, which would keep the price down, and I think the quick-set hour hands for both the 12-hour and the GMT hand is a better solution than the 2893-2's quick-set GMT hand. I actually think the 2836-2's GMT is even a better solution than Rolex's GMT, where the GMT hand is slaved to the minutes. But the 2836-2 is thicker, and it's an ETA, plus I'm not sold on the idea of using a movement modified by a 3rd party, since they don't come as GMT's standard from ETA.

Chinese movements are out of the question. Just a non-starter.

The only GMT movement that really interests me is Orient's, but like I said, they don't wholesale it, unless you're Vostok Europe.

I'm not looking to make any "GMT's are stupid" arguments, but I've come to really appreciate the elegant simplicity of the 12-hour bezel as a poor-man's GMT. It doesn't require us to design the case around the movement, and adds nothing to the cost.

I think we'll likely do some 12-hour bezel versions of the Subs soon. We recently proposed one as a special-edition for one of our retail partners. If they don't bite on it, then it's almost certainly going to be something we make as a production model.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Black Scorpene is the best sub version. 
I think I am going to pass on the gilt and wait for that one.
They never come up for sale used.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> I'm not looking to make any "GMT's are stupid" arguments, but I've come to really appreciate the elegant simplicity of the 12-hour bezel as a poor-man's GMT. It doesn't require us to design the case around the movement, and adds nothing to the cost.


12-hour bezels are honestly much more useful than your traditional diving bezel. I'm surprised they're not more common.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I like the 4-hander with 12-hr dial better than the 3-hand with 24-hr dial. I can't force my brain to recognize 12 being at the bottom of the dial.
> 
> I didn't realize until seeing that pic how close the L&H design is to the Glyince, right down to the elongated tail on the hour hand. I don't get it. Why bother making such a similar design when you can pick up a new Glycine for $500-$700?
> 
> ...


Not to mention the glycine is already made and has a decent reputation. Why go for a brand new, untested knockoff?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Not to mention the glycine is already made and has a decent reputation. Why go for a brand new, untested knockoff?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah. All that. I don't get it.

Make a $500 homage to some $5,000 or long-out-of-production whatever? Sure, I get it. But this, I don't get. It reminds me of another startup brand that made something which looked exactly like a $200 watch from a major brand. I can't wrap my head around it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Black Scorpene is the best sub version.
> I think I am going to pass on the gilt and wait for that one.
> They never come up for sale used.


It's one of my faves. Never could figure out why it wasn't in the top 3 versions.


----------



## Apogee84 (Jun 27, 2008)

Nacken modern black, black scorpene, and subs with 12 hr bezels. I got some serious decisions to make regarding my watch budget for the year!

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Secondly - I've got a "here's what's coming in 2019" email/blog post planned for sometime in the next couple weeks, but since it's just us girls here, I'll give you cats a preview of the preview....
> 
> 1. For April/May(ish) - More of some previous versions of the NTH Subs - we're bringing back the Barracuda Blue, the Barracuda Brown, the Nacken Vintage Blue, more of the Nacken Modern Blue, the Nacken Modern Black, the Renegade, the Scorpene Black, and like I said earlier, *the Santa Cruz.*


Will the Santa Cruz be the same as the old model or "tweaked". Must admit, I've been hanging for this one..... This may get me over the line...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Huh, an "NTH Odin" model. The name certainly peaks interest.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

I had the rare occasion to see these two side by side - I won't compare them to each other, obviously there are differences. But they could easily coexist due to their different concepts.

But man, that pelagos wears huge!










Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Huh. That's really neat. The NTH genuinely looks aged/older in that head-to-head.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Huh, an "NTH Odin" model. The name certainly peaks interest.


Just throwing this out there...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin-class_submarine


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I had the rare occasion to see these two side by side - I won't compare them to each other, obviously there are differences. But they could easily coexist due to their different concepts.
> 
> But man, that pelagos wears huge!
> 
> ...


When I first got the Nacken Modern prototype on my wrist, I thought immediately: wearable Pelagos for those of us who just can't wear the Pelagos. Price aside, Pelagos is big and thick.

I guess tudor didn't want to cannibalize its own sales with different sizes of its designs, but medium and XL clothing never stopped me from buying size L.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)




----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> It's one of my faves. Never could figure out why it wasn't in the top 3 versions.


I'll always regret having traded mine away. (


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I've worn the Nacken Modern Black, and I've owned the Santa Cruz, Santa Fe, Oberon, Vintage Blue Nacken, and presently own only the Nazario Sauro. The Vintage Blue was fabulous, and I'd buy it again if I could part with my SMP (which I won't). That vintage blue is outstanding; so much better in real life than the pics, and it looks good in the pics. If the forthcoming Barracuda Vintage Black is as good as it should be, that's damn near a one-watch, as of course Tudor knows...


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Wow, that Pelagos looks substantially beefier next to the Nacken.

I think the Nacken is the perfect size.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Will the Santa Cruz be the same as the old model or "tweaked". Must admit, I've been hanging for this one..... This may get me over the line...


No change.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I had the rare occasion to see these two side by side - I won't compare them to each other, obviously there are differences. But they could easily coexist due to their different concepts.
> 
> But man, that pelagos wears huge!





hwa said:


> When I first got the Nacken Modern prototype on my wrist, I thought immediately: wearable Pelagos for those of us who just can't wear the Pelagos. Price aside, Pelagos is big and thick.
> 
> I guess tudor didn't want to cannibalize its own sales with different sizes of its designs, but medium and XL clothing never stopped me from buying size L.





Toonces said:


> Wow, that Pelagos looks substantially beefier next to the Nacken.
> 
> I think the Nacken is the perfect size.


You guys know we're detail-oriented when it comes to new model design, particularly when it comes to the case.

We spend a lot of time looking at the case in profile or from the lugs, thinking about how it will feel on the wrist, and what we can do to trick the eye, so that we can make things look even smaller/thinner, and eliminate awkward transitions. We try to balance aesthetics with functionality and ergonomics, by looking at things like the height of the bezel teeth, shape/size of the crown, etc.

I'm a fan of the Tudor Pelagos aesthetic. I think the snowflake hands and square markers work really well together, as they did with the old snowflake Subs. The Pelagos just ups the game by recessing the markers into the stadium rehaut, and by avoiding Rolex-style bling by keeping things monochromatic and matte. A glossy bezel or reflective dial would just ruin it.

In my opinion, where Tudor loses points is in its blocky case design. Modern Rolexes have a bit of the same thing happening, compared to vintage Rolex/Tudor models. I'm not a fan of slab sides and thick, squared-off lugs. I like the sleeker lines of the vintage models better.

Since launching the NTH Subs, we've had some people asking for a bigger version. I've been wanting to try doing something which incorporates some different design cues, still blending vintage and modern, but maybe something which would be seen as being a bit more of its own thing.

I have no doubt many will draw comparisons between what we're working on and the Pelagos or Sea-Dweller/Deepseas, but hopefully others will appreciate what we did differently. Like we did with the NTH Subs, we're imagining what a classic, vintage model might look like if it was kept in continuous production, and its design development had charted a different course.


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

docvail said:


> In my opinion, where Tudor loses points is in its blocky case design. Modern Rolexes have a bit of the same thing happening, compared to vintage Rolex/Tudor models. I'm not a fan of slab sides and thick, squared-off lugs. I like the sleeker lines of the vintage models better.


I will say the Black Bay 58 is a step in the right direction. Now if I could get a downsized Pelagos...


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Huh, an "NTH Odin" model. The name certainly peaks interest.


Aevig has a model called "Thor". Since Chris wants to make an "Odin" he surely intends to show who the real boss is in micro-brasgard


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

smkader said:


> I will say the Black Bay 58 is a step in the right direction. Now if I could get a downsized Pelagos...


I agree, but when I look at all the Tudors in profile, the proportions never look "right" to my eye. It's not just about raw dimensions, but about how the elements look altogether. I don't like it when one element dominates the others. I think it exaggerates the disproportions when your eye is drawn to a single element, to the exclusion of the others.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Aevig has a model called "Thor". Since Chris wants to make an "Odin" he surely intends to show who the real boss is in micro-brasgard


Nice.

I wasn't even thinking about that. I know Chip likes to draw on Norse mythology when coming up with model names, whereas the Subs are all named for submarine classes (with the exception of the Catalina, which was a sea-plane, and the Carolina, which refers to non-Submarine US naval vessels). The overlap here is just a coincidence.

Some guys here know I'm a fan of the TV show "Archer", so I had to consider the connection to Isis rival spy agency Odin. There's also a Facebook friend who posts pictures of his bulldog Odin every day.

I can't always predict what connections people are going to draw. The Nacken has gotten a lot of comments from Scandinavians. People mispronounce some of the names, which also leads to some unfortunate associations in some people's minds. We get people asking about why we named this or that model what we did, or sneering that we used a non-English name, as if we were trying to be foreign-sounding.

There are only so many Submarine classes to choose from, and not all of them look/sound good. I may need to find a new naming convention before too long.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Since launching the NTH Subs, we've had some people asking for a bigger version. I've been wanting to try doing something which incorporates some different design cues, still blending vintage and modern, but maybe something which would be seen as being a bit more of its own thing.
> 
> I have no doubt many will draw comparisons between what we're working on and the Pelagos or Sea-Dweller/Deepseas, but hopefully others will appreciate what we did differently. Like we did with the NTH Subs, we're imagining what a classic, vintage model might look like if it was kept in continuous production, and its design development had charted a different course.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Agent Sands said:


>





Docvail said:


> Since launching the NTH Subs, we've had some people asking for a bigger version. I've been wanting to try doing something which incorporates some different design cues, still blending vintage and modern, but maybe something which would be seen as being a bit more of its own thing.


Yeah, so now I'm in double trouble.... always coveted the Santa Cruz no date, but 40mm was always just that tad too small. Emailed Doc long time back about the possibility of something a bit bigger in the 42-44mm range... and now this. Damn.... just threw down for a Nodus Avalon Monarch, got an itch for the Seiko SBBN013 and now Doc does this to me.

Hopefully the bigger watches will be ugly as and I won't be tempted......

Interestingly I've always shied away from 40mm watches but took a punt on the Tisell Submersible and it's become one of my regular go to watches. Just seems to wear bigger than 40mm, so reckon that may have bridged me to the Santa Cruz.

Will await Docs offerings with interest!!


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

I'll just be watching from the sidelines. I always appreciate what Chris does from a design POV. Even when it isn't to my taste, it's very easy to detect the thought and attention to detail behind his choices. Besides, the current NTH subs are plenty big for my wrist. 

If I'm honest, I'm not really in the market for a diver right now, anyway. I've got the hearty Orthos Commander 300 filling the diver slot in my predominantly dressy collection, and I have no intention of ever parting with it (though the prospect of getting one of the lume dial NTH subs has briefly made my commitment waver). I'm in a phase of collecting where, after a few years of abundant acquisition, I sold a lot of watches off and I'm now trying to build relationships with the pieces I own and love. Additionally, my financial capital at the moment is generally being directed to other things than watches. 

Luckily for Doc, he doesn't seem to need my business! As far as NTH goes, business appears to be a-boomin'.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...my Philadelphia Eagles are about to play Rusty's New Orleans Saints in the NFL Playoffs. Win or go home.

I may be looking for a new 3D guy after today.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> So...my Philadelphia Eagles are about to play Rusty's New Orleans Saints in the NFL Playoffs. Win or go home.
> 
> I may be looking for a new 3D guy after today.


Rooting for both the Eagles and the Saints....want to see a good game and may the best team win.

As of just now it is 14-0.....the Eagles came to PLAY.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> So...my Philadelphia Eagles are about to play Rusty's New Orleans Saints in the NFL Playoffs. Win or go home.
> 
> I may be looking for a new 3D guy after today.


New 3D guy it is then Doc.....start advertising!!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> So...my Philadelphia Eagles are about to play Rusty's New Orleans Saints in the NFL Playoffs. Win or go home.
> 
> I may be looking for a new 3D guy after today.


And I didn't even gloat.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> And I didn't even gloat.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:cough:

Regardless, suck an egg, Philly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> :cough:
> 
> Regardless, suck an egg, Philly.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is why I don't invite you over.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> This is why I don't invite you over.


You won last year. Don't be greedy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Apogee84 said:


> Nacken modern black, black scorpene, and subs with 12 hr bezels. I got some serious decisions to make regarding my watch budget for the year!


Scorpene with a 12hr bezel and/or date window, and I'd be first-ish in line. Already, I'm thinking seriously about a Scorpene blue, anyway.

But in the meantime, this just arrived...









Didn't realize and am totes stoked that the hands are windowed. The AR gives the internal bezel a blue glint around the edge. 12hr bezel. *swoon*


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> You won last year. Don't be greedy.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Go tell it to New England.

I don't know if others feel the same way, and I'm not sure I really feel this way, but I think I'd rather not get into the playoffs at all then get into the playoffs and not win the Superbowl. It's impossible to not get your hopes up, and there's just something about being a lifelong (and suffering) fan here in Philly.

Whatevs, I'm proud of how my team played down the home stretch of the season, and how the players represent our city both on and off the field. There are half a dozen guys on the team who are truly inspirational. You can't be anything but proud of selfless guys like Nick Foles, Jason Kelce, Jalen Mills, Darren Sproles, and Chris Long (donating his entire salary to charity, and playing the season for free). They don't have anything to hang their heads about.

The Saints were just the better team yesterday, and deserve the win. Brees, Kamara and Thomas were on fire, that punt fake was a helluva call by Payton, and the Eagles failed to capitalize on a number of opportunities which could have changed the outcome. The loss can't be blamed on bad calls by the refs or injuries to our starters; we just got outplayed, which is less painful than feeling like we were robbed of a win that was rightfully ours.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Scorpene with a 12hr bezel and/or date window, and I'd be first-ish in line. Already, I'm thinking seriously about a Scorpene blue, anyway.
> 
> But in the meantime, this just arrived...
> 
> ...


Nice!

Let us know if it gives you any problems.

There's a gen 1 Scorp blue for sale on f29. I'll vouch for the seller - https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-o...new-condition-free-shipping-$575-4840777.html.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm. Is it still a brain-trauma-sport-galore or did they make any meaningful changes from this year onwards to prevent all their players literally banging their brains into scar-tissue?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm. Is it still a brain-trauma-sport-galore or did they make any meaningful changes from this year onwards to prevent all their players literally banging their brains into scar-tissue?


There are many rules added in recent years to cut down on helmet-to-helmet contact, but it's impossible to prevent all of it. They've also been enforcing mandatory concussion-check protocols during the games, often over the objections of the affected players.

It's interesting to me that we don't hear as much about the effects of concussions in other sports involving contact but no head protection, like Rugby. Even soccer has it's share of head traumas, it seems. Hockey seems at least as dangerous. But people seem fixated on Football as an outlier.

I'm not saying the history and statistics don't warrant the measures taken to make it a safer game to play. I'm just saying we need some time before we're able to validate that the measures taken have had the desired effect.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Nice!
> 
> Let us know if it gives you any problems.
> 
> There's a gen 1 Scorp blue for sale on f29. I'll vouch for the seller - https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-o...new-condition-free-shipping-$575-4840777.html.


Super-nice. So far, so good, 2hrs in...

Saw that one for sale, too...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> Scorpene with a 12hr bezel and/or date window, and I'd be first-ish in line. /splice/
> 
> 12hr bezel. *swoon*


One of us. One of us. One of us.
One of us. One of us. One of us.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/12-hour-bezels-where-have-they-gone-1501202.html


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

azsuprasm said:


> One of us. One of us. One of us.
> One of us. One of us. One of us.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/12-hour-bezels-where-have-they-gone-1501202.html


Have you ever found a thread with hundreds of entries and when you read, like, the last four pages, you immediately go to the first page and then read every single post ever posted?

I have.


----------



## Apogee84 (Jun 27, 2008)

mconlonx said:


> Scorpene with a 12hr bezel and/or date window, and I'd be first-ish in line.


+1 on the Scorpene with a 12 hr bezel. That would be one impressive and unique watch! I'll be right behind you in line. I've been considering a Seiko mod like that for years.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Apogee84 said:


> +1 on the Scorpene with a 12 hr bezel. That would be one impressive and unique watch! I'll be right behind you in line. I've been considering a Seiko mod like that for years.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


Yeah good point the Scorpene line makes sense for a 12 hour bezel. They do have pilot hands & style already etc.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Just thought I would point out that, if you can divide by 5, a timing bezel becomes a 12hr bezel. Jus' sayin.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> Just thought I would point out that, if you can divide by 5, a timing bezel becomes a 12hr bezel. Jus' sayin.


Too: if you can multiply by five, a 12hr bezel becomes a timing bezel. Just sayin'...

Just blew up my watch budget on a Sinn 856 UHT, so the Scorpene in any form will have to wait.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> Too: if you can multiply by five, a 12hr bezel becomes a timing bezel. Just sayin'...
> 
> Just blew up my watch budget on a Sinn 856 UHT, so the Scorpene in any form will have to wait.


And if you can add or subtract, a three-hander can tell time everywhere at once.

Or you could retire and stop giving a .....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

The only reason I'd like to see Chris work on a piece with a true GMT hand is that there are plenty of vintage GMT pieces--classic or otherwise--that don't have good successors in the current market. While it'd be possible to do variations on them while doing the "poor man's GMT" thing, to preserve the logic of the designs you really have to have the GMT hands.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I'd really like NTH to release a GMT+1 watch. GMT is nice and all, but that's not my domestic timezone so it's not really all that relevant. GMT+1 is where it's at. 

(Also please a special "Daylight Savings Time" edition too!)


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> I'd really like NTH to release a GMT+1 watch. GMT is nice and all, but that's not my domestic timezone so it's not really all that relevant. GMT+1 is where it's at.
> 
> (Also please a special "Daylight Savings Time" edition too!)


Specific DST complications for all EU nations please. This would be the new most complicated watch ever made.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Too: if you can multiply by five, a 12hr bezel becomes a timing bezel. Just sayin'...
> 
> Just blew up my watch budget on a Sinn 856 UHT, so the Scorpene in any form will have to wait.


What kind of math whizzes are you?

I'll stick to just buying the same with with different bezels, thank you very much.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> I think we'll likely do some 12-hour bezel versions of the Subs soon. We recently proposed one as a special-edition for one of our retail partners. If they don't bite on it, then it's almost certainly going to be something we make as a production model.


Please do so, I know that you hate unsolicited advice so take it as a customer request: I still have and really love my Phantom A Khaki with DLC case, it's just so beautiful and well designed... if only the dimensions where right. I'd really love to see an updated version with the subs.

Other than that, looking forward the next batch, a modern Nacken or that Renegade are definitely on the books.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Pato_Lucas said:


> Please do so, I know that you hate unsolicited advice so take it as a customer request: I still have and really love my Phantom A Khaki with DLC case, it's just so beautiful and well designed... if only the dimensions where right. I'd really love to see an updated version with the subs.
> 
> Other than that, looking forward the next batch, a modern Nacken or that Renegade are definitely on the books.


I love the functionality of 12-hour bezels, but in owning a few, I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I do sometimes have that gnawing sense that they're a tad "busy." I wonder if this would prove especially true on the Scorpene?

24-hour GMT bezels are arguably even worse.

Solution? Own multiple watches 

But seriously, IDK if I'd go with a 12-hour bezel for a one-watch collection. I'd probably opt for a gmt hand, secondary 24 hour marks on the dial, and dive bezel in such a situation.

The DevilRay is also a great compromise.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

One last plug for the 12 hour bezel/GMT approach: I'm going to just hazard a guess and say that many of you haven't shared a beautiful bottle of cabernet and a couple of Belgian quads over a stunning French meal, and then try and figure out what time it is after about 3 hours of sleep. Having watched many of my compatriots try to do math under those circumstances is extremely amusing. Spinning a bezel is SO much easier...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SOMEONE: It would be awesome if you make a GMT.

ME: I've got no plans for a GMT. Here's why. We might make a poor-man's GMT with a 12-hour bezel.

MORE GUYS: 3 pages of GMT discussion...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh. Double post.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> SOMEONE: It would be awesome if you make a GMT.
> 
> ME: I've got no plans for a GMT. Here's why. We might make a poor-man's GMT with a 12-hour bezel.
> 
> MORE GUYS: 3 pages of GMT discussion...


Stop acting like you don't know how this all works


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> SOMEONE: It would be awesome if you make a GMT.
> 
> ME: I've got __ plans for a GMT. Here's why. We might make a ____-___'_ GMT with a 12-hour bezel.
> 
> MORE GUYS: 3 pages of GMT discussion...


There's a difference between what you say and what we want to hear.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On another topic...

Like I said in a recent post, the NTH website won't have any of the Nacken Modern Blue or Barracuda Vintage Black for sale. You'll all want to be contacting our retail partners about them, and I wouldn't wait too long.

For those of you who already have the Nacken, I suspect the current batch will sell quickly, and those who get shut out will go looking for them on the used market. Could be a good time to flip it for top dollar if you're thinking of letting one go. We won't have more available until April/May-ish. I see one sold right after Christmas for $610 (BNIB, I might add).

The same may be true for the Barracuda (God, please let the same be true for the Barracuda). Anyone in the habit of doing the "never wore/wore it once" flip might want to wait at least a few weeks, or whenever they sell out, before listing it for sale. 

Hah! Wore it once. Watch geeks are strange birds. 

The "never wore it" flip is even stranger to me. We'll take returns of unworn goods for up to 30 days. Why not send it back for a full refund, rather than sell it for a loss, even a small one?

Not too long ago, I saw someone selling an unworn Commander 300 for $300. 

UN. WORN. 

I jumped on it like a fat kid on a candy bar, and immediately flipped it for $500, which was the full price when new, 3 years earlier. 

I think I sold my Atomic Orange Orthos for $500, maybe $600 ($100 over new), and it was worn, albeit still in new condition. 

UVAlaw got $50 more than full price for his Deep Six DevilRay.

I get emails from guys asking about sold-out stuff, then I'll look on WatchRecon, and see forum members dumping the same stuff - in NEW condition - for 30%-35% less than the guy emailing me would happily pay.

Yes, it helps to sit where I'm sitting, getting the emails from guys asking me if I've got one piece keistered for a rainy day, but c'mon - you should know when you've got something a lot of guys want. 

The demand is out there. No reason to sell something for less just because you got a good deal in pre-order, or whatever the story is. Take good pics, and price according to supply and demand. When there is no supply, any demand at all likely warrants a higher price than a lot of you are asking for.

I hate seeing people leave money on the table.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Any requests for a true GMT 4-hander from Doc must be made via Haiku...

...and then will be summarily dismissed.

Must have GMT?
Why do you keep on asking?
Quit bothering Doc.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

azsuprasm said:


> Any requests for a true GMT 4-hander from Doc must be made via Haiku...
> 
> ...and then will be summarily dismissed.
> 
> ...


12 hour bezel
Or it could be GMT
Either one is good


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

azsuprasm said:


> Any requests for a true GMT 4-hander from Doc must be made via Haiku...
> 
> ...and then will be summarily dismissed.
> 
> ...


Double posts are bad
Why do they always happen
I must change it now


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

I just want to sing some more praise for the crown action on these subs. Screwing down this crown is heaven compared to Seiko and Orient. Good job Doc.


----------



## LogisticsCzar (Jun 23, 2017)

docvail said:


> On another topic...
> 
> Like I said in a recent post, the NTH website won't have any of the Nacken Modern Blue or Barracuda Vintage Black for sale. You'll all want to be contacting our retail partners about them, and I wouldn't wait too long.
> 
> ...


Who buys a watch then doesn't wear it? Is it all a lie has it been worn once and they hated it? Ahhhh how I'd love to get into people's minds sometimes. Working on it ESP and such no luck yet.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Posting up a ghostrider in f/s shortly first dibs In here


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LogisticsCzar said:


> Who buys a watch then doesn't wear it? Is it all a lie has it been worn once and they hated it? Ahhhh how I'd love to get into people's minds sometimes. Working on it ESP and such no luck yet.


Cellophane still on the bracelet - https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-nth-nacken-blue-diver-mint-4855909.html

Is it possible the guy was BS'ing, that he pulled the bracelet off and mounted it on a strap? Possibly, but if there are marks on the back of the lugs, odds are the buyer on WUS would see it, and call BS, so it's less likely the guy would say "never wore it" rather than "wore it once, on a strap, bracelet is still unworn/wrapped, and no marks on the case."

If there are no marks from a strap-change, then it would be all but impossible for us to refuse its return as "unworn", so he could have returned it for a refund, within the returns period.

The sale post date was 2 weeks back, so it must be from the batch we delivered (through Watch Gauge) back in October/November, so it's not like he'd be returning it for a refund to me, it'd be Watch Gauge, and even though I assume WG doesn't typically accept returns after 2 months, I bet John would take it back anyway, so long as it really was unworn.

The Nacken Modern Blue is in high demand. Watch Gauge had every piece sold in a New York minute. We get at least a dozen emails a week about them. That seller could have gotten full price for it, if not more than full price, especially since it's still BNIB.

I'm not saying every guy selling a used NTH Sub should be asking for the full/new price, and I'm happy to see that used values seem to be staying north of $500. I'm just saying - we try to produce each version according to apparent demand. No matter how many pieces of each version we made, there's probably demand for more, because we're trying to avoid over-production, and if a model was a slower seller, I don't make more.

I get that there's some "I got a good deal in pre-order, so I'm going to pass along the savings to the next guy" thinking here on WUS. It's one of the things I like about this place. But if you got a good deal in pre-order, it was because you were willing to wait months for delivery, put up with delays, and all the other drawbacks of doing pre-orders, like the risk I'd blow your pre-order money on hookers and cocaine.

Why give the next guy the benefit of the risk you took and the wait you put up with when he's getting it immediately, with no risk? Why sell it for $400 when a new one is $600-$650, if we even have them available? I definitely don't get why you'd do that when we DON'T have them available, at any price, and there are FOUR PAGES of wanted-to-buy NTH threads in the WTB forum.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Doc's right. I have a Nazario Sauro. first $3K gets it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Doc's right. I have a Nazario Sauro. first $3K gets it.


Legit LQTM (laugh quietly to myself).


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Why give the next guy the benefit of the risk you took and the wait you put up with when he's getting it immediately, with no risk? Why sell it for $400 when a new one is $600-$650, if we even have them available? I definitely don't get why you'd do that when we DON'T have them available, at any price, and there are FOUR PAGES of wanted-to-buy NTH threads in the WTB forum.


As someone who has at times flipped subs under the market value...
Well the weird part is that putting up the initial for-sale post at +- decent price, and there's no actual reaction or response for more than a week. Idk what's up with the actual demand (especially earlier when subs were newer), but either the people wanting-to-buy are really picky about particular variants, or the demand in the us is different from the demand here in europe. Tbh it is really irritating to have a watch that should be "hot", list it for sale, and see no activity/reaction.


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

My Nacken Vintage was one I regret letting go. Sweet watch.


----------



## watchustebbing (Nov 26, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Picture time!

Devil Ray and Drake's Ripcut









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> As someone who has at times flipped subs under the market value...
> Well the weird part is that putting up the initial for-sale post at +- decent price, and there's no actual reaction or response for more than a week. Idk what's up with the actual demand (especially earlier when subs were newer), but either the people wanting-to-buy are really picky about particular variants, or the demand in the us is different from the demand here in europe. Tbh it is really irritating to have a watch that should be "hot", list it for sale, and see no activity/reaction.


I can't claim to be all-knowing when it comes to what works/doesn't work in sales posts. Maybe geography has something to do with it. I think good timing is part of it. I don't think you'll do as well selling a watch we just delivered when we still have them in stock, but waiting until we're sold out would certainly seem to improve your prospects.

Recently I noticed an up-tick in the number of emails we were getting from people who'd bought one of our watches used on eBay. In almost every case, it seemed that the eBay listings were for more than the listings on f29, which I found interesting. I asked around, and heard that some frequent sellers will often start on f29, and if an item doesn't sell, they'll move the listing to eBay, where it frequently sells for a higher price than it was listed for on f29.

I don't know what to tell you. I certainly wouldn't want to discourage people from listing on f29, but a lot of the demand we're seeing is coming from people who don't frequent WUS, whereas the buyers on WUS may be too bargain-oriented, so it may pay to list it elsewhere, such as eBay, Reddit, in FB groups, etc.

Not every Subs model is in equal demand. Some are in more demand than others. But across the board, we get inquiries about all but a few versions.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

ck2k01 said:


> I love the functionality of 12-hour bezels, but in owning a few, I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I do sometimes have that gnawing sense that they're a tad "busy." I wonder if this would prove especially true on the Scorpene?


Funny thing, I find the 12-hour bezel on my Phantom tremendously useful to time runs and walks, going for a 1 hour run?, just align the 12 hours mark with the minutes hand, when said hand reaches the six it's time to go back. Lovely simple, and I love the design, that's why I'd love to see it updated to the subs case.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> Recently I noticed an up-tick in the number of emails we were getting from people who'd bought one of our watches used on eBay. In almost every case, it seemed that the eBay listings were for more than the listings on f29, which I found interesting. I asked around, and heard that some frequent sellers will often start on f29, and if an item doesn't sell, they'll move the listing to eBay, where it frequently sells for a higher price than it was listed for on f29.
> 
> I don't know what to tell you. I certainly wouldn't want to discourage people from listing on f29, but a lot of the demand we're seeing is coming from people who don't frequent WUS, whereas the buyers on WUS may be too bargain-oriented, so it may pay to list it elsewhere, such as eBay, Reddit, in FB groups, etc.


That's been my experience also, a watch not selling on f29, and selling on eBay for more than I initially wanted. A wider audience and being drawn in to keep bidding.

Before I sell a watch I usually check to see what they are selling for on one versus the other to kind of know what to expect.

In the mean while, I'm patiently waiting for my Barracuda Vintage Black to arrive next week.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

MarkND said:


> That's been my experience also, a watch not selling on f29, and selling on eBay for more than I initially wanted. A wider audience and being drawn in to keep bidding.
> 
> Before I sell a watch I usually check to see what they are selling for on one versus the other to kind of know what to expect.
> 
> ...


I typically find it about a wash with eBay's relatively high fees.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

ck2k01 said:


> I typically find it about a wash with eBay's relatively high fees.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's why I try f29 first. If I don't get any interest after a few weeks I'll sell it on eBay as a last resort. I used to sell a lot of things on eBay, but not so much anymore since the fees have gone up from what they were.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Recently I noticed an up-tick in the number of emails we were getting from people who'd bought one of our watches used on eBay. In almost every case, it seemed that the eBay listings were for more than the listings on f29, which I found interesting. I asked around, and heard that some frequent sellers will often start on f29, and if an item doesn't sell, they'll move the listing to eBay, where it frequently sells for a higher price than it was listed for on f29..


It's happened to me several times. List here... Crickets, or ridiculous low balls and scammers with 0 posts. Put it on ebay at a *higher* price to try to offset the fees, and it's gone quick. In a couple cases I netted less, but at least the buyer on ebay was staying engaged.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

basso4735 said:


> I just want to sing some more praise for the crown action on these subs. Screwing down this crown is heaven compared to Seiko and Orient. Good job Doc.


Seriously. And steinhart. WAY better than steinhart


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

When it comes to sales based on my experiences people have no idea watch recon exists. How they miss it when they search online is beyond me or maybe they are afraid to use it in fear of getting scammed etc.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> As someone who has at times flipped subs under the market value...
> Well the weird part is that putting up the initial for-sale post at +- decent price, and there's no actual reaction or response for more than a week. Idk what's up with the actual demand (especially earlier when subs were newer), but either the people wanting-to-buy are really picky about particular variants, or the demand in the us is different from the demand here in europe. Tbh it is really irritating to have a watch that should be "hot", list it for sale, and see no activity/reaction.


I never managed to sell a single watch on wus. Most people lurking there are "conus, conus conus" only and don't want to bother with customs. I use either the Uhrforum or eBay.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

hwa said:


> Doc's right. I have a Nazario Sauro. first $3K gets it.


I mean we could conspire and put all our subs on ebay for 3k. ~100 pieces will do.. 
This will then set a chain reaction (possibly) and others will adapt to our price.

then get some "unbiased" influencer to tell the world about them and why they have been unhappy their whole life and ... tadaa
meanwhile doc cuts production , hires those lifestyle instaphotographs and plays a rolex rep.

btw. wasn't this how some italian business man pulled the rolex daytona scheme. Buying tons of them (when everyone thought they were ugly) and after the marketing kicked in selling the hype. I think I read or heard about this somewhere... correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Everyone expects to buy a NTH sub for $500 on WUS, be it 7 days old or 2 years old, I never understood that. I guess better to do ebay then and sell to TGV followers for a few bucks more. Or guys if you are reading this, stop giving them away lol, keep them firm at $575-600


----------



## Rusty_nl (Jul 2, 2017)

Just ordered the Barracuda Vintage Black. Finally it is on stock, can't wait to get it. Will be perfect next to my nacken modern blue


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

It just happened to me again. I listed a brand new borealis isofrane here for msrp - yes, no discount but someone in the states would have it in a few days instead of weeks.
Put it on ebay for $4 over msrp and it was sold in an hour.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

**Attention, everyone waiting on the re-made links for your NTH Subs, purchased directly from NTHwatches.com or JanisTrading.com, delivered between October and the end of last year (not including Zwaardvis)** 

We should have all links shipped by the end of today. If you don't see an email with tracking info within the next 48 hours, please contact us via our website, providing your name and order number.

This ONLY applies if you bought the watch directly from our website, not one of our retailers, and ONLY applies to the NTH Subs delivered in the most recent production, with delivery dates between October and December 2018. 

If you purchased the watch from one of our retailers or another individual, please contact them about the links. We sent replacement links to all our retailers, and emailed all direct customers to ask them to respond to us if they sold the watch to anyone. We've shipped the links to anyone who didn't respond regarding a private sale. If we were informed of a private sale, we shipped the links to the buyer.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> If we were informed of a private sale, we shipped the links to the buyer.


That is so above and beyond it is likely causing watch company executives in Switzerland to collapse in laughter induced exhaustion (if they're lurking here of course). But those people getting those links straight from you are going to buy another Nth someday. :-!


----------



## arogle1stus (May 23, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

dmjonez:
NTH on mesh. How stunning!!!

X Traindriver Art


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> That is so above and beyond it is likely causing watch company executives in Switzerland to collapse in laughter induced exhaustion (if they're lurking here of course). But those people getting those links straight from you are going to buy another Nth someday. :-!


I'm happy if customers are happy.

I just see it as cutting down on the future pain in my a$$ of people coming back to say they bought the watch used but never got the links, and insisting it's somehow out fault.

We sent out multiple emails to everyone who bought a watch from us, plus I posted the same messages to both this thread and the BSHT threads (because Carolina), and to both the Janis Trading fans group and the Carolina project group on Facebook.

No one can say we didn't make an honest effort.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Need more Barracuda Vintage Black imagery... The wait is killing me...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> Need more Barracuda Vintage Black imagery... The wait is killing me...


@HWA - that's your cue.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm just waiting on the man. Should be soon.



docvail said:


> @HWA - that's your cue.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

^^^ WOW!!! ^^^

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Double Drat that Double Post..........


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

[Soooooo want to quote the whole post, with all those images, but I won't...]



hwa said:


>


Even though I know you're not the "just got it, now I'll flip it" type, let me be the first to call "dibs".

Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it in good health, my friend.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Giveaway - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/show...t-isnt-now-you-cant-unsee-either-4870647.html


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

New clasp links received and fitted, all good!


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

hwa said:


>


*Stunning...*

Remember a few pages back I asked about visual differences between the gilt-relief models vs the printed gilt models? Well this is why.. I couldn't pass up the chance to pick up an Amphion Dark Gilt from a fellow member. It's my favorite flavor of the Amphion models (having owned and sold an Amphion Modern), and I'm very happy with the Dark Gilt. So now my NTH stable looks like this:
















Even so.. the more I see the Barracuda Vintage Black, the more I'm tempted...


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

Nice! I think mine should ship tomorrow.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> [Soooooo want to quote the whole post, with all those images, but I won't...]
> 
> Even though I know you're not the "just got it, now I'll flip it" type, let me be the first to call "dibs".
> 
> Let us know if it gives you any trouble. Otherwise, enjoy it in good health, my friend.


Brother, it's the best yet, and I've had a bunch of them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

tc3 said:


> *Stunning...*
> 
> Remember a few pages back I asked about visual differences between the gilt-relief models vs the printed gilt models? Well this is why.. I couldn't pass up the chance to pick up an Amphion Dark Gilt from a fellow member. It's my favorite flavor of the Amphion models (having owned and sold an Amphion Modern), and I'm very happy with the Dark Gilt. So now my NTH stable looks like this:
> 
> ...


Not to make trouble for you, but there's no comparison between the applied gold markers and gilt relief. The former has a nice formal look, the latter reflects and pops. Look at the way the light hits one spot but not the other. The relief looks fluid. It's not a knock on applied indices, its an aesthetic appreciation I'm expressing. It really is that good.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Brother, *it's the best yet*, and I've had a bunch of them.


Arguments over which is the best Sub break out in 3...2...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Not to make trouble for you, but there's no comparison between the applied gold markers and gilt relief. The former has a nice formal look, the latter reflects and pops. Look at the way the light hits one spot but not the other. The relief looks fluid. It's not a knock on applied indices, its an aesthetic appreciation I'm expressing. It really is that good.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I tend to agree.

I like the gold-print text and minute track on the original Barracuda in brown, but it didn't do it for me on the Amphion Dark Gilt. Now that I've seen true gilt relief, I wonder if what I like about the brown version is just the brown, not the gold.

Applied markers are nice. They give a dial a degree of visual texture and depth. They add character. But the gilt really does add something very cool with the way the light plays off it.


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

hwa said:


> Not to make trouble for you, but there's no comparison between the applied gold markers and gilt relief. The former has a nice formal look, the latter reflects and pops. Look at the way the light hits one spot but not the other. The relief looks fluid. It's not a knock on applied indices, its an aesthetic appreciation I'm expressing. It really is that good.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh geez.. so you're saying they're different enough to possibly justify having both??? :think:


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> I tend to agree.
> 
> I like the gold-print text and minute track on the original Barracuda in brown, but it didn't do it for me on the Amphion Dark Gilt. Now that I've seen true gilt relief, I wonder if what I like about the brown version is just the brown, not the gold.
> 
> Applied markers are nice. They give a dial a degree of visual texture and depth. They add character. But the gilt really does add something very cool with the way the light plays off it.


You guys are making my Oberon (my 3rd favorite right now) nervous at the prospect of a potential new home..


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

So we m posting hoping to be the 10,000th in this thread!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



tc3 said:


> Oh geez.. so you're saying they're different enough to possibly justify having both??? :think:


I'm not doing this yet, but yeah, you could make the case for two.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

tc3 said:


> You guys are making my Oberon (my 3rd favorite right now) nervous at the prospect of a potential new home..


You'd miss the honeycomb and 3-6-9. No comparison. Those can cohabitate!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

10001. Boom

EDIT: Dang. 10003 by the time I hit the post button. Fast moving ball game


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> 10001. Boom
> 
> EDIT: Dang. 10003 by the time I hit the post button. Fast moving ball game


Missed the landing again. Sorry, Cap'n, it's easier to nail a landing on a heaving ship.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skipwilliams said:


> So we m posting hoping to be the 10,000th in this thread!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Wow.

That snuck up fast. I remember when we were in the low 900's, thinking "should we start a new thread?"


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Stolen root beer Barracuda alert.

Somewhere between Minnesota and North Carolina someone opened the box and took the barracuda out. USPS left it in the buyer mail box without getting the signature I paid for.

Me no happy.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I tend to agree.
> 
> I like the gold-print text and minute track on the original Barracuda in brown, but it didn't do it for me on the Amphion Dark Gilt. Now that I've seen true gilt relief, I wonder if what I like about the brown version is just the brown, not the gold.
> 
> Applied markers are nice. They give a dial a degree of visual texture and depth. They add character. But the gilt really does add something very cool with the way the light plays off it.












Yes,a few of us had this a while the LE it is a stunning piece. No one will be disappointed and it is even more stunning in the flesh


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Stolen root beer Barracuda alert.
> 
> Somewhere between Minnesota and North Carolina someone opened the box and took the barracuda out. USPS left it in the buyer mail box without getting the signature I paid for.
> 
> Me no happy.


Man, that sucks. Sorry to read this, my friend.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## arogle1stus (May 23, 2013)

docvail:
65+ year watch owner, flipper and gifter (to relatives and pals)
Danged awesome IMO.

X Traindriver Art


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

I saw that WatchGauge still has the NTH Näcken Vintage White in stock, and so I once again pulled out my Commander 300 to see if I could bear parting with it to help fund a new purchase, but I just can't do it.

I'm just too much of a Bond fan to let it go.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeCfromLI said:


> Yes,a few of us had this a while the LE it is a stunning piece. No one will be disappointed and it is even more stunning in the flesh


I have an Amphion Dark Gilt, and I find the dial and hands to be stunning. I thought all of the hoop-la about the gilt relief to be a bit, um, questionable until I saw the pic from MikeCfromLI. No more. That outdoes the Dark Gilt by far. Now to get the bux together....


----------



## Rusty_nl (Jul 2, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Photos do not do this watch justice, it is stunning. An awesome addition next to my Nacken Modern Blue. My 3th and by far not last NTH. 
And great service and attention to details from SeriousWatches.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Could this gilt-ing process be done with elements like Platinum and Ruthenium?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Could this gilt-ing process be done with elements like Platinum and Ruthenium?


Why would we want to?


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> Why would we want to?


so you can impress nobody that you remembered the periodic table.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteagus said:


> so you can impress nobody that you remembered the periodic table.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Why would we want to?


For a shiny silver effect, I guess?


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Mikecfroml said:


> Yes,a few of us had this a while the LE it is a stunning piece. No one will be disappointed and it is even more stunning in the flesh





MikeyT said:


> I have an Amphion Dark Gilt, and I find the dial and hands to be stunning. I thought all of the hoop-la about the gilt relief to be a bit, um, questionable until I saw the pic from MikeCfromLI. No more. That outdoes the Dark Gilt by far. Now to get the bux together....


Err... that Carolina pic that MikeCfromLI posted is mine, sorry to say.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> For a shiny silver effect, I guess?


We can get that polishing any metal of that color.

Not sure why we'd do it.

The only colors we can do with the plating process used on the dial are black, gold, gray, and silver.

Black on gold looks good. I don't think any of the other possible color combinations are worth doing.

MKII did a gilt-relief dial using silver instead of gold. It doesn't look as good.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Err... that Carolina pic that MikeCfromLI posted is mine, sorry to say.


It may be









Looking for the best showing of that gilt it is soo much better in person


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Why would we want to?


Because it looks nice?

Nomos does ruthenium-coated dials on some watches and, well, it looks nice. Same with platinum.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

MikeCfromLI said:


> It may be
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True. Can't argue with this fact. ;-)


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

“Gilty” as charged!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Let me clarify about the gilt stuff, because now that we're doing it, it seems to be prompting questions about alternative ideas.

The dials are made of brass plate. The gilt relief is done by electro-plating, masking off the areas we want to show, then electro-plating again. 

There are only four colors available with this process - black, gray, gold, and silver.

We're not changing the dial material, say, to steel, so we can do PVD, and get colors like blue, as an example. That process doesn't produce good results when you try to get two colors plated on a single part using masking. The reject rate is too high.

We can't mask off and get the same results using paint/ink, pad printing, screen printing, etc. The thing about plating is that nothing sticks to the masking. When you paint/print over masking, it creates a single, solid layer on top, which gets ruined when you try to remove the masking.

Can we plate with alternative metals, like platinum, or ruthenium? Maybe, but what would be the point of using a metal that looks silver, if we can already get silver?

Let me stop everyone from an exercise that leads nowhere. 

We're doing black on gold. 

I seriously doubt we'll do any other color combos, or go out of our way to find alternative metals which add nothing as a result.

I'll do any sort of gilt-relief dial you want, as long as it's black and gold.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Because it looks nice?
> 
> Nomos does ruthenium-coated dials on some watches and, well, it looks nice. Same with platinum.


"More beautiful than plain black..."

Really?

That's marketing hype. It sounds better than "looks exactly the same as plain black, but you'll rejoice in telling people it's 'ruthenium, a metal from the platinum group', and that's enough for us to charge $3k for a plain as paper watch."

Sorry, I can't do it.









Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

hehe. Touche  

On second thought, thank God you aren't doing that - else we'd be looking at $3000 subs!


----------



## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

I just joined the NTH club. Pretty darn pleased, too.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> "More beautiful than plain black..."
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...


I think I've seen that one in-person and I thought it was nothin' too special, kinda like how some allegedly expensive enamel dials really look like enamel and others just look like yer typical standard-issue, dime-a-dozen glossy dial.


----------



## Maradonio (Nov 19, 2015)

docvail said:


> X2-Elijah said:
> 
> 
> > Because it looks nice?
> ...


Taking cheap shots at nomos, theres no need for that.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> "More beautiful than plain black..."
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...


How much did it cost you just to use the Nomos reference and image? 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> hehe. Touche
> 
> On second thought, thank God you aren't doing that - else we'd be looking at $3000 subs!


I know I often sound like a dlck. That's just how I sound. I can't help it.

I was sort of thinking exactly that, though.

I believe Nomos is really using ruthenium, but, to play Devil's advocate, if they weren't, how would you know?

I understand ruthenium is "part of the platinum group", but...what exactly does that mean? Steel and gold are both "metals", but only one is "precious". Is ruthenium valuable, the way gold is, such that you'd pay more for it (even if it just looks black or silver)? I don't know.

The Nomos dial looks "black". Is it more beautiful than "plain black"? I dunno, but, let's assume it is.

Look at the Barracuda dial. It's more beautiful than plain black, because it isn't just plain black. It's not a basic matte black dial, by any stretch.

My evil side wishes I'd had the forethought to tell everyone we were doing "real" gold plating, and "real" ruthenium on top, and make a big noise about it, hyping the hell out of it, then charging suckers through the nose, without any fear of being exposed as a liar, but that's just not me.

I can give you all the beauty and style without the hype, and I don't need to over-charge you for it.

Just say nice things about me when I'm dead. I want my legacy to be cutting through the BS. People can say I was a dlck, but they can't say I ripped anyone off.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Maradonio said:


> Taking cheap shots at nomos, theres no need for that.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Maradonio said:


> Taking cheap shots at nomos, theres no need for that.


Nomos charging a ridiculous premium - there's no need for that.

Mate, the entire luxury industry runs on selling "champagne WISHES and caviar DREAMS." Salespeople are taught from day one to sell the sizzle, not the steak.

You may be _*getting*_ the tangibles of sparkly alcohol and salty fish eggs, but you're _*buying*_ the intangibles cooked up in the lifestyle marketing department.

Getting drunk and smelling like salty fish won't change your life for the better any more than wearing an Omega will make you James Bond.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Getting drunk and smelling like salty fish won't change your life for the better any more than wearing an Omega will make you James Bond.







Please, just take a brief moment to think about how much money went into that terrible ad.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Please, just take a brief moment to think about how much money went into that terrible ad.


I want to make a joke about how the ticking/ringing sound in the video still isn't as loud as the 9015 rotor noise, but I think I just did.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> I understand ruthenium is "part of the platinum group", but...what exactly does that mean? Steel and gold are both "metals", but only one is "precious". Is ruthenium valuable, the way gold is, such that you'd pay more for it (even if it just looks black or silver)? I don't know.


Had to look it up.

Today's spot price on Platinum - $802/ounce

Gold - $1,291/ounce

Ruthenium - $266/ounce

How much of any of that stuff do you think is on a dial, about 30mm wide, with a coating thickness measured in microns (just for reference, the dial plate is only 0.4mm thick)?

Answer - Way, WAY, WAAAAAAYYYYYY less than one ounce.

Yeah, and I'm out of line calling BS on what happens in this industry.

Pull the other one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> I'm not doing this yet, but yeah, you could make the case for two.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You may be the first/only guy in a position to compare the Barracuda to the MKII.

Without naming names, I asked someone to compare the gilt of the Carolina to an MKII, and was told that the gilt of the MKII was more glossy, as opposed to the apparent brushed texture on the underlying surface of the Carolina.

I didn't get the chance to take a macro lens pic of the Barracuda before I shipped them all, but when I noted the brushed look of the Carolina, the factory told me they would improve the finish on the Barracuda dials.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> I want to make a joke about how the ticking/ringing sound in the video still isn't as loud as the 9015 rotor noise, but I think I just did.


What I'd give to see a version of that ad with you swimming through a backyard pool with 9015 rotor noises in the background...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> What I'd give to see a version of that ad with you swimming through a backyard pool with 9015 rotor noises in the background...


Doesn't sound travel faster/farther underwater?

We could say the rotor noise is a feature, not a bug, as it helps divers locate each other in an environment where they can't speak.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Doesn't sound travel faster/farther underwater?
> 
> We could say the rotor noise is a feature, not a bug, as it helps divers locate each other in an environment where they can't speak.


_The NTH subs feature advanced underwater echo-location technology..._


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Maradonio said:


> Taking cheap shots at nomos, theres no need for that.


Boy, it's a great thing you're here to stand up for Nomos! I heard their corporate offices were shocked... SHOCKED... that somebody on some interweb discussion board thought their $3K black dial looked like a $3 black dial.

Lighten up, Frances, shots is what we've been drinking and delivering here for the last 10,000 + posts.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

You thought this was the Janis Training thread?

No! THIS IS THE LUXURY BRAND SMACKDOWN THREAD!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Agent Sands said:


> What I'd give to see a version of that ad with you swimming through a backyard pool with 9015 rotor noises in the background...


Why did you do that?

Getting flashbacks of the imagined imagery now, gotta go get an immediate mind-wipe.............

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Ragl said:


> Why did you do that?
> 
> Getting flashbacks of the imagined imagery now, gotta go get an immediate mind-wipe.............
> 
> ...


Just imagine the associated print campaign:


----------



## Maradonio (Nov 19, 2015)

Since we are talking black dials. This is my favorite nowdays. 190 usd. 
Really deep black and glossy. Citizen fugu edition.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Did someone say "black dial"? Because the Bahia is killer:


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Wondering when the Vantablack(tm) dial NTH sub will make an appearance...


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> Wondering when the Vantablack(tm) dial NTH sub will make an appearance...


Enough with the black dials. I want a GOLD dial!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

92gli said:


> It's happened to me several times. List here... Crickets, or ridiculous low balls and scammers with 0 posts. Put it on ebay at a *higher* price to try to offset the fees, and it's gone quick. In a couple cases I netted less, but at least the buyer on ebay was staying engaged.


Same. My Zodiac ZO9204 sat in the FS section here for weeks, with almost no bites at all other than a few extremely low ball offers. Put it on eBay and it was gone.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Maradonio said:


> Taking cheap shots at nomos, theres no need for that.


Truth hurts.

Overpriced is what it is.


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> Wondering when the Vantablack(tm) dial NTH sub will make an appearance...


Yeah, I'd buy that one.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> We can get that polishing any metal of that color.
> 
> Not sure why we'd do it.
> 
> ...


Black and gold always wins.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ruthenium is for chumps. If you really want to impress me, coat your dial in carbon nanotubes. How much more black? None. None more black.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> Black and gold always wins.


Ah, but *which* gold?

#teamrosegold


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

Vantablack would actually be of interest to me. Applied indices would appear to float in a void.

Obscure metals that are the distant cousin thrice removed from platinum... Not the least bit interested.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Iirc docvail had a discussion about vantablack some time ago. Imo it's an interesting idea, but there are two to three near showstoppers:

1) Technically, the real "vantablack" color (and technique?) is held as a patent or trademark by some guy who is really restricting the color's use in anything "art"-related, including watches. (There are cop-out clauses for scientific uses, idk about industrial, definitely not for accessories/profit). So to use a real "vantablack" dial, doc would have to get permission from the owner of "vantablack" patent. Probably expensive. _However, there are nearly-as-good alternatives out there, that might be viable._

2) Applying it seems to be a tricky process, it might be expensive to refit a dial manufacturing facility to support vantablackization. Maybe better option would be to pre-coat or pre-make the dials locally and ship them to the assembly plant.

3) The reflections off of the underside of sapphire and mineral crystals will ruin the "pure black" effect, since, sure, the dial surface will be pure black, but the crystal above will still overlay its glare an reflections. So the watch as a whole will not look like a black hole or a pure physics-bending void, it will mostly just look like a really black dial. Like, in that photo of the Panerai - it just looks like a normal black dial. There's no magic "hole into nothingness" effect, because of the crystal reflections.

4) Perceptually, the real "magic" of vantablack is that it removes our ability to sense texture and structures of the coated surface. (like the moving face relief, where you only see a black shape but can only resolve the outline, which keeps changing as the 3D relief rotates). A flat dial is, well, a boring object. No matter how you rotate or skew it, it will look like a flat oblong circle. So the benefit from what vantablack does is much less. If a watch's *case* was fully coated in (somehow durable) vantablack, that would be a completely different thing.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

H. Moser's watch pulls off the "infinite black" look better than the Panerai does. From certain angles it looks like it doesn't have a crystal at all, and you're looking at exposed hands on a pure black dial. I normally don't like double AR coated crystals, but I think on this sort of application it makes a lot more sense than it does on a Sinn or Damasko. (Not saying that's what Moser did here, just that it would make logical sense to do it with a vantablack dial).


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Doc, what are your thoughts on the Damasko bracelet? I recently read X2-Elijah's review of a Damasko when I first noticed it. What I find interesting is the clasp solution. The solution looks very consistent and elegant. Other than that they use torx type screws which is another great feature.

I haven't seen any sub homage using that type of clasp solution on the market. 
This would imo also fit very good into the overall dynamic design of the nth subs.
The price is super high on those things then again those 2 feautures (clasp + torx screws) are really interesting.

here some pics:


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

bloody dp


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Iirc docvail had a discussion about vantablack some time ago. Imo it's an interesting idea, but there are two to three near showstoppers:
> 
> 1) Technically, the real "vantablack" color (and technique?) is held as a patent or trademark by some guy who is really restricting the color's use in anything "art"-related, including watches. (There are cop-out clauses for scientific uses, idk about industrial, definitely not for accessories/profit). So to use a real "vantablack" dial, doc would have to get permission from the owner of "vantablack" patent. Probably expensive. _However, there are nearly-as-good alternatives out there, that might be viable._
> 
> ...


Boring my a$$










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Seikogi said:


> Doc, what are your thoughts on the Damasko bracelet? I recently read X2-Elijah's review of a Damasko when I first noticed it. What I find interesting is the clasp solution. The solution looks very consistent and elegant. Other than that they use torx type screws which is another great feature.
> 
> I haven't seen any sub homage using that type of clasp solution on the market.
> This would imo also fit very good into the overall dynamic design of the nth subs.
> ...


Had it. Sold it. Overrated.

Burnishing aside, thick and chunky. The torx is a pain, not an upgrade. Hard to open that bracelet clasp.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Had it. Sold it. Overrated.
> 
> Burnishing aside, thick and chunky. The torx is a pain, not an upgrade. Hard to open that bracelet clasp.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the feedback.

I was not thinking that the bracelet style/links would fit for the NTH design, merely the clasp design and torx.

Torx: Idk how it is a pain because I have more control and the screw head gets less wear on the edges. I use them around the house and have them on my pocket knives. :/

Clasp: I heard that from the review but that is Damaskos fault imo.

My dad has a jacque leman watch with this style of clasp and it works neatly.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Regarding plutonium, torx bracelets, Black-hole paint and the like: here's my opinion (before Doc wakes up and hits us with a WoT)

All of that stuff is costly to make. Having read ALL of Doc's Walls of Text, where he really shines is making stuff that competes with the watches on the market, with better specs, and costs LESS. I'd wager that making a meteorite watch with a hand-blown-glass dial and a bluetooth bracelet (I know, I'm exaggerating, but I'm doing it on purpose so don't get mad), would put him in Rolex territory. And it's pretty difficult for a micro-brand to compete with them. BUT, a solid diver with a reliable bracelet with great specs and a comfortable bracelet for $700 will send his kids to college...


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Regarding plutonium, torx bracelets, Black-hole paint and the like: here's my opinion (before Doc wakes up and hits us with a WoT)
> 
> All of that stuff is costly to make. Having read ALL of Doc's Walls of Text, where he really shines is making stuff that competes with the watches on the market, with better specs, and costs LESS. I'd wager that making a meteorite watch with a hand-blown-glass dial and a bluetooth bracelet (I know, I'm exaggerating, but I'm doing it on purpose so don't get mad), would put him in Rolex territory. And it's pretty difficult for a micro-brand to compete with them. BUT, a solid diver with a reliable bracelet with great specs and a comfortable bracelet for $700 will send his kids to college...


I believe the sub is great, the bracelet is good. Good is enough for many, most watch companies are fine with mediocre imo.

This might have gotten confused with the dial discussion but I wasn't talking about torx bracelets, timascus bezels or pip boys.

Torx for the removable links and a seamless clasp. No clue what the costs involved are. From a logical point of view it shouldn't be too much but pricing never makes sense.

Simply an idea that I wanted to share with you.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Look, we can all agree that the subs would be better with jubilee bracelets...

(Just kidding, Chris. Well, kinda. I do quite like jubilee bracelets.)


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Agent Sands said:


> Look, we can all agree that the subs would be better with jubilee bracelets...
> 
> (Just kidding, Chris. Well, kinda. I do quite like jubilee bracelets.)


Or BOR even.........

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> All of that stuff is costly to make. Having read ALL of Doc's Walls of Text, where he really shines is making stuff that competes with the watches on the market, with better specs, and costs LESS. I'd wager that making a meteorite watch with a hand-blown-glass dial and a bluetooth bracelet (I know, I'm exaggerating, but I'm doing it on purpose so don't get mad), would put him in Rolex territory. And it's pretty difficult for a micro-brand to compete with them. BUT, a solid diver with a reliable bracelet with great specs and a comfortable bracelet for $700 will send his kids to college...


FWIW, I was totally kidding with the Vantablack suggestion a few posts ago -- licensing and use of the material alone would probably exceed the current cost of any given sub. Not worth it. My vote: Doc's doing a fine job, as-is, keep up the good work. Maybe release another run of Devil Rays at some point...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Or Devilrays with a vantablack dial. Demonrays.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not doing Vantablack, nor am I at all interested in making changes to the bracelet or clasp.

You can accept that at face value, or you can press me on it, at which point I'll either ignore you or do a text dump on you.

I like it better when people just accept my first answer, and don't press me further.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

*Top Ten Ways to Improve the NTH Subs
*
1. Add a jubilee bracelet with torx screw attachments and a Rolex-grade glide-lock clasp and a quick-release lug attachment system
2. Swap the Miyota for a high-grade ETA movement with a hand-engraved custom rotor
3. Add a sapphire display caseback
4. Add platinum-filled ceramic bezels coated in sapphire
5. Coat all dials in patented vantablack
6. Apply zaratsu-grade finishing to the case and bracelet
7. Add a helium escape valve
8. Engrave the rehaut with NTHNTHNTHNTHNTHNTHNTHNTH all the way around
9. Get a high-profile celebrity endorsement from someone like Armie Hammer
10. Forge the watch case in the fires of Mount Doom


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Agent Sands said:


> *Top Ten Ways to Improve the NTH Subs
> *
> 1. Add a jubilee bracelet with torx screw attachments and a Rolex-grade glide-lock clasp and a quick-release lug attachment system
> 2. Swap the Miyota for a high-grade ETA movement with a hand-engraved custom rotor
> ...


Agree, I would also like to pay under $500. Thanks.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Seikogi said:


> I believe the sub is great, the bracelet is good. Good is enough for many, most watch companies are fine with mediocre imo.
> 
> This might have gotten confused with the dial discussion but I wasn't talking about torx bracelets, timascus bezels or pip boys.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to single you out at all, and I meant no harm. But you must admit, the last few posts have ALL been about how Doc could change the subs. I too like the butterfly clasp. But having been here for a bit, I wanted to share my own understanding. And in your own words, the subs are great and the bracelet good. I think "mediocre" may be a bit strong in context. And your own admission about costs is spot on. Doc has shared a bit with us in the past, but that surely doesn't mean things won't change in the future. Please don't be offended at my response.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Under $400 would be better!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Time for a watch Photo anyone?









This particular Cerberus Blue landed today, snaffled on ebay for a ridiculously low price. Hate to see good dawgs mistreated, so I had to bring him home. Invested an hour with Cape Cod and a Sunshine cloth, et voila - this dawg has brushed-up all **** & span, looks to be keeping excellent time too.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Ragl said:


> Time for a watch Photo anyone?
> 
> View attachment 13815957
> 
> ...


Lovely.

The Sante Fe is my favorite NTH watch, but the Cerb is my favorite L&H release (aside from the Commander, natch).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Agent Sands said:


> *Top Ten Ways to Improve the NTH Subs
> *
> 1. Add a jubilee bracelet with torx screw attachments and a Rolex-grade glide-lock clasp and a quick-release lug attachment system
> 2. Swap the Miyota for a high-grade ETA movement with a hand-engraved custom rotor
> ...





basso4735 said:


> Agree, I would also like to pay under $500. Thanks.


Aaaaaannnndddd...that's watch-geeks, in a nutshell.

We're at the point where there's nothing we can improve without increasing costs. We're also at the point where we can't increase costs, at all, without people grousing about it, unless we go full-bore, making a laundry list of changes, not just one or a few incremental ones, and the costs will go up by a lot...

Some recent issues with bracelets led to a discussion with my primary vendor about our bracelet supplier. I brought up the semi-frequent occurrence of finding that the holes in the end-links and the holes in the lugs aren't perfectly aligned.

I think the ends of a spring bar, depending on the gauge, are ~0.5mm in diameter. The tolerances allow for the holes to be within 0.1mm of the specified location, sometimes leading to difficulty getting the spring bars to seat correctly. I don't know how often it happens, maybe it's as much as 5% of the time, but I know it must be frustrating for customers, because it's frustrating for me.

He suggested an alternative, reputedly "better" supplier, and additional tooling to make customized clamps for the hole-drilling, but the projected cost increase would translate to a $25-$40 increase in the retail prices of the watches, something I'm hesitant to accept when I don't know how often or how big the issue we're solving really is.

There are a handful of competitors who sell a watch like the NTH Subs, with comparable quality/specs and nearly identical components, including the 9015, for $700 or more, but they tend to either be larger/more established brands, or other micros which don't seem to be selling very many watches.

For every guy who thinks we should add _____, there are many others who don't want that, most likely because of what it would add to the price, but some simply because they don't agree that it would be a true improvement.

If I had to guess, I'd say 80% of most people's assessments of price "fairness" with microbrand watches comes down to comparing a handful of core specs/components, without many, if any people including adjustments for harder-to-quantify aspects of what we do, like quality, customer experience, or all the little add-ons which don't often make it into a spec sheet.

It's like the guys who gripe about the phantom date change position on the crown when you have a with-date movement under a no-date dial. If it bothers 5% of the people, does it make sense to increase costs, by any amount, for the other 95%, in order to address it?

I don't think it does. I'd rather have 95% of my customers feeling like they got outstanding value than worry about pleasing the 5% who will find something to nitpick no matter what we do, or complain about the price, if they can't find anything else to complain about.

I'm very proud of what we're able to deliver for the price we charge. I don't think it needs any apologies, in any way. I have to be very deliberate when considering any changes which would add cost, and weigh those changes/costs against how they'll affect sales and customer satisfaction among the vast majority of customers.


----------



## larand (May 15, 2017)

Ragl said:


> Time for a watch Photo anyone?
> 
> View attachment 13815957
> 
> ...


Damn, that's a good-looking watch.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Seikogi said:


> Torx for the removable links and a seamless clasp.
> 
> .


I'm pretty sure Nth would lose a lot of business if they had butterfly clasps. They suck. I'll never buy another watch with one. Ever.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

92gli said:


> I'm pretty sure Nth would lose a lot of business if they had butterfly clasps. They suck. I'll never buy another watch with one. Ever.


I actually quite like butterfly clasps. I have good ones on my Hamilton Jazzmaster and pre-Accu-Swiss rebrand Bulova Accutrons that are very comfortable and easy to use.

That said, the whole idea of a diver-appropriate clasp is that it's a bit more secure than other kinds of clasps, and I think that trying to make a butterfly clasp robust enough to satisfy the standard of "diver toughness" generally makes it more difficult to use (my Victorinox Night Vision has a butterfly clasp that that they added a safety catch to and it's a bit of a nuisance). Butterfly clasps aren't also as easy to adjust as a standard diver clasp.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I'm also not a fan of butterfly clasps. Especially on a toolish or diver watch. I'm good with the current nth bracelet especially with the recent upgrades.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Aaaaaannnndddd...that's watch-geeks, in a nutshell.
> 
> We're at the point where there's nothing we can improve without increasing costs. We're also at the point where we can't increase costs, at all, without people grousing about it, unless we go full-bore, making a laundry list of changes, not just one or a few incremental ones, and the costs will go up by a lot...
> 
> ...


Stfu and make watches. We don't pay you to type

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Anyone else notice the 1.5 year lull around here has ended? The snark has improved lately 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Agent Sands said:


> Butterfly clasps aren't also as easy to adjust as a standard diver clasp.


This is the weak link for me. I like the look and feel of butterfly clasps, but that lack of easy on-the-fly adjustment is a problem, especially with heavier bracelets. I do have a modded Parnis Datejust style with a butterfly clasp and a surprisingly good jubilee bracelet, and it's a pleasure to wear, but it's small with a relatively light bracelet.

Not a sub or a Seiko:


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

It is totally understandable and normal that Doc tries to get the 95% happy, not the 5%. Everyone would do the same and that's IMO one of the hard parts in this industry. Chris is really good at this judging by his results and I am sure he will continue to deliver this quality.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

dp again..


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Too much gold going on in here. Let's Ice things up a bit. The wife is LOVING her new watch.

















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

MaxIcon said:


> This is the weak link for me. I like the look and feel of butterfly clasps, but that lack of easy on-the-fly adjustment is a problem, especially with heavier bracelets. I do have a modded Parnis Datejust style with a butterfly clasp and a surprisingly good jubilee bracelet, and it's a pleasure to wear, but it's small with a relatively light bracelet.


The one butterfly style I could see wearing is Zodiac's due to the on the fly spring-loaded adjustment. Not sure if Zodiac has any kind of patent on that idea, but I haven't seen anyone else do anything like it. One of my long departed Citizens had a normal butterfly and I didn't like it, because I could either have the bracelet sized to be too lose some of the time, or too tight some of the time. My other Citizen had a deployant with a ratcheting extension and didn't have that problem.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ME: "I'm not changing the bracelet or clasp."

GUYS: Three pages of debate about bracelets and clasps.


Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> ME: "I'm not changing the bracelet or clasp."
> 
> GUYS: Three pages of debate about bracelets and clasps.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> ME: "I'm not changing the bracelet or clasp."
> 
> GUYS: Three pages of debate about bracelets and clasps.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


Hey, there could be some GALS here too. Your newer watches are unisex, right? I bet the gals would love a butterfly clasp!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Hey, there could be some GALS here too. Your newer watches are unisex, right? I bet the gals would love a butterfly clasp!


Nah. The lack of microadjustments outweighs the benefit of a less bulky clasp regardless of gender. My Jazzmaster is always just a little too loose or too tight, even with half links. Looks great as it's leaving a dent on my wrist though.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The odd thing about the Zodiac's bracelet clasp (referenced above) is that in a lot of the reviews of the watch it shipped with, a lot of the reviews mention that particular clasp mechanism being very fiddly to operate.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

92gli said:


> I'm pretty sure Nth would lose a lot of business if they had butterfly clasps. They suck. I'll never buy another watch with one. Ever.


Love it on my aqua Terra


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Not sure what everyone is talking about as I tend to skip many pages but I will randomly chime in that the only thing I wish it would be different is if end links had the middle part that rotates so that it drops down and not be fixed which ultimately extends lug to lug for 2mm.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> The odd thing about the Zodiac's bracelet clasp (referenced above) is that in a lot of the reviews of the watch it shipped with, a lot of the reviews mention that particular clasp mechanism being very fiddly to operate.


Are you talking about the original Sea Wolf clasp, or the new one? The original homage to the '53 Sea Wolf used a two piece clasp that was indeed fiddly, and not well liked. After that they went with a standard deployant on the Sea Wolf "compression" model. The current Wolf is no different than any other basic double push-button butterfly - except the two halves can pull apart on springs - demonstrated in the video below @ 7:00.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Speaking of 60 minute vs. 12 hour bezels, I really like the way Tag designed this particular bezel on the Autavia chrono. The 60 minute timer (which is likely to be used more often) is given priority, along with per-minute markers that you generally don't see on 12 hour bezels. The 12 hour scale is still there though when you need it, but small enough that it almost disappears when you don't need it.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Sussa said:


> Nah. The lack of microadjustments outweighs the benefit of a less bulky clasp regardless of gender. My Jazzmaster is always just a little too loose or too tight, even with half links. Looks great as it's leaving a dent on my wrist though.


Don't want to bring this topic up again but why the need of misinformation? There are butterfly clasps with microadjustments or more state of art engineering like the Zodiac down there.


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Davekaye90 said:


> Speaking of 60 minute vs. 12 hour bezels, I really like the way Tag designed this particular bezel on the Autavia chrono. The 60 minute timer (which is likely to be used more often) is given priority, along with per-minute markers that you generally don't see on 12 hour bezels. The 12 hour scale is still there though when you need it, but small enough that it almost disappears when you don't need it.


Speaking of Tag's bezel... I think I've seen something similar here before ;-)


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Not sure what everyone is talking about as I tend to skip many pages but I will randomly chime in that the only thing I wish it would be different is if end links had the middle part that rotates so that it drops down and not be fixed which ultimately extends lug to lug for 2mm.


^^ This, I totally understand. :-!


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_2659.jpg


View attachment DSC_2664.jpg


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Not sure what everyone is talking about as I tend to skip many pages but I will randomly chime in that the only thing I wish it would be different is if end links had the middle part that rotates so that it drops down and not be fixed which ultimately extends lug to lug for 2mm.


I agree. Some people whine about steinhart bracelets being like that because they don't like seeing the side of the center link :roll:
I think the articulation in that spot makes a bracelet feel a little more flexible.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Stfu and make watches. We don't pay you to type
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is why I told Rusty to kick you in the nuts when he saw you.

Twice.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Speaking of 60 minute vs. 12 hour bezels, I really like the way Tag designed this particular bezel on the Autavia chrono. The 60 minute timer (which is likely to be used more often) is given priority, along with per-minute markers that you generally don't see on 12 hour bezels. The 12 hour scale is still there though when you need it, but small enough that it almost disappears when you don't need it.
> 
> View attachment 13817921


I can't make up my mind about whether or not I like this bezel.

Just my out-loud thinks...

The Subs are primarily dive watches, such that a 60-min bezel seems more "right", even if actual, real-world use by my customers might make the choice of bezel markings a bit more arbitrary. Maybe a 12 hour bezel would be more useful for more people. Hard to know.

When I look at the designs we've done, the 60-minute bezels seem appropriate given the inspiration for each design. We could argue that the Scorpène is a big-number pilot, so it might have been better with the 12-hour, but that design is done, so no point in arguing.

The more Subs we make, I think the new designs will be more unique/original, and where it seems "better", I'm happy to use a 12 hour meter instead of the 60-minute, even knowing it will draw criticism from dive watch purists.

That sort of hybrid/dual scale might solve the dilemma, but I wonder if it doesn't make the design look too busy. We may look for a way to massage that concept a bit, to make it a more elegant solution.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Sporting a 1st Gen Barracuda on a nice Stowa strap. I think the brown/brown theme really works well.

Skip










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Pissodes (Sep 7, 2018)

EL_GEEk said:


> Too much gold going on in here. Let's Ice things up a bit. The wife is LOVING her new watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow I have not seen the Dolphin pictured like that. That ice is on fire. Might be my new favorite NTH.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone looking for either a Nacken Modern Blue or a Barracuda Vintage Black -

This most recent release wasn't as well-coordinated as I tried to make it. With six retail partners, and another to be revealed soon, I wasn't able to get them all on the same page at the same time. 

Sometimes it's like herding cats. Except in this case, the cats need to do bank wires and arrange international shipping. 

I know it seems like they were all sold out instantly. They aren't/didn't. 

There are still a few pieces available from those retailers who have been taking orders already. And our new retailer, not yet revealed, ordered some of both models, but obviously no one knows about the store or those pieces which are available, until they launch their website. 

Obviously, everyone would like to order from within their own country, or region. But if you really want one, there are still some pieces out there. Look at our retailers' websites, or email them. 

Our new retail partner will be in Indonesia. They ordered 15 of each model - 5 no-dates, 10 with-dates. If none of the other retail partners can get you sorted, watch for our announcement of this shop going live. 

In the meantime, we've got more of both models in production. We should have the Nacken in April/May(ish). If the Barracuda isn't also available at the same time, it'll be available not too long after.

I'm doing my best to keep up with demand. I'm also doing my best to get the retail partners we bring on up to speed with how we do business. It can take a little while for all of us to get in sync (read: for them to run/work at my pace), but we're getting there.

I appreciate everyone's patience. I'm sorry for anyone's frustration.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Pissodes said:


> Wow I have not seen the Dolphin pictured like that. That ice is on fire. Might be my new favorite NTH.


Thanks. The dial is stunning, that sunburst silver/white ("whithver"?) is beautiful. It even looks like MOP on certain lights 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I can't make up my mind about whether or not I like this bezel.
> 
> Just my out-loud thinks...
> 
> ...


One of the oddest hybrid designs I've seen is what Chip did with the Balaur. Compression diver with the 12 hour scale given priority....and a countdown timer? ......okay?


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I appreciate everyone's patience. I'm sorry for anyone's frustration.


What is this, Rolex?!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Slant said:


> Speaking of Tag's bezel... I think I've seen something similar here before ;-)


True, but the Fox's bezel is clearly a wink and a nod at Doxa but with the 12 hour scale in place of the decompression scale. What's interesting about the Autavia is that it's _mostly_ a timing bezel, with the 12 hour bezel there on the occasion you might need it. It's a little bit like the Sinn 756 UTC in that way. It's _mostly_ a 3-hand chrono, except it can also measure a second time zone if you want it to. When you don't need that, you can hide the skeleton hour hand since it's a second 12 hour hand, and not a traditional 24 hour hand.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Of course there's also nothing stopping you from doing a fully indexed 12 hour bezel. I actually prefer that to the usual type, as I feel like otherwise 12 hour bezels look a bit barren.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'll figure it out.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



EL_GEEk said:


> Too much gold going on in here. Let's Ice things up a bit. The wife is LOVING her new watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man, this is making me want to get my soon to be wife into watches. It looks great! The downside would be a whole new watch fund for me to support. I think I don't want her to be into watches, she has enough luxury goods as it is.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> This is why I told Rusty to kick you in the nuts when he saw you.
> 
> Twice.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


He forgot.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I can't make up my mind about whether or not I like this bezel.
> 
> Just my out-loud thinks....


I'm as big a fan of 12hr bezels as any, but they have a place and time. I don't mind that most drivers are traditional 60 min. That's kind of the definition of tradition.

As a pilot-style watch, certainly the Scorpene would be appropriate, but even a company like Sinn makes pilot style watches with 60 min bezels.

Devilray has the dual-count bezels, so if I want an NTH with a 12hr bezel, I can wait for another release of those... Or I could hang on to my Antilles...









I mean, I can't even promise that if a new NTH came out with 12hr bezel that I'd like the style enough to buy it. History is littered with products which were the result of a very vocal minority that a) failed in a more general marketplace, or b) had some other fatal flaw that offended the same vocal minority who clamored so hard for it.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> I mean, I can't even promise that if a new NTH came out with 12hr bezel that I'd like the style enough to buy it. History is littered with products which were the result of a very vocal minority that a) failed in a more general marketplace, or b) had some other fatal flaw that offended the same vocal minority who clamored so hard for it.


This reminds me of the trope about how all automotive journalists want a brown AMG wagon - preferably with a manual. No one actually buys those, and thus dealers don't stock them.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Man, that Dolphin is _SHARP_!

And great photography.

I'd love to get something like that for the wife, but there is a very strong point about not getting into a whole second watch fund thing.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> This reminds me of the trope about how all automotive journalists want a brown AMG wagon - preferably with a manual. No one actually buys those, and thus dealers don't stock them.
> 
> View attachment 13820313


But I want a high HP wagon with a manual! I am also that guy who will buy it preowned with 15,000 miles for $30K less though. I don't know who buys them new, but I want them to keep doing it. AFAIK MB hasn't offered a manual of any type in the US in well over a decade.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> He forgot.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was just about to when you and Mrs hwa had to run out for that early dinner.

I'll get you next time, Gadget. Next time!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



rpm1974 said:


> I was just about to when you and Mrs hwa had to run out for that early dinner.
> 
> I'll get you next time, Gadget. Next time!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Keep reading that good book and keep yer hands to yerself!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The more Subs we make, I think the new designs will be more unique/original, and where it seems "better", I'm happy to use a 12 hour meter instead of the 60-minute, even knowing it will draw criticism from dive watch purists.
> 
> That sort of hybrid/dual scale might solve the dilemma, but I wonder if it doesn't make the design look too busy. We may look for a way to massage that concept a bit, to make it a more elegant solution.


IMO, you and your team are at your best when you're being the most creative with your Sub designs or new models.

I appreciate you have a business to run, so there's a lot of considerations you have to balance, beyond just raw creativity/cleverness.

But just wanted to send along a  for some of the keepers you've made that deeply resonated with me.

I'm glad you took your hobby to the next level, amigo.

For as much as we poo on Swiss and the whole buying heritage thing, I do enjoy populating my box with hobbyist brands from designers whom I appreciate on a personal level. It adds a human touch to this thing, like that fantasy of an old Swiss guy sitting at a bench putting together your watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Dub Rubb said:


> But I want a high HP wagon with a manual! I am also that guy who will buy it preowned with 15,000 miles for $30K less though. I don't know who buys them new, but I want them to keep doing it. AFAIK MB hasn't offered a manual of any type in the US in well over a decade.


Drove the piss out of a 5-speed Benz stick from '84-90. Seems like just yesterday.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Dub Rubb said:


> But I want a high HP wagon with a manual! I am also that guy who will buy it preowned with 15,000 miles for $30K less though. I don't know who buys them new, but I want them to keep doing it. AFAIK MB hasn't offered a manual of any type in the US in well over a decade.
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


That's the issue - it's hard to sell new cars that only make sense as used cars. It's a fantastic time to buy high dollar/horsepower lux cars though as the market continues to crater in favor of jacked up mini buses. Thinking about replacing my MKZ soon with a '16 Cadillac CT6 with all of the toys. $90K list, and they are now the price of a well spec'd Camry.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> That's the issue - it's hard to sell new cars that only make sense as used cars. It's a fantastic time to buy high dollar/horsepower lux cars though as the market continues to crater in favor of jacked up mini buses. Thinking about replacing my MKZ soon with a '16 Cadillac CT6 with all of the toys. $90K list, and they are now the price of a well spec'd Camry.


Regarding HP it depends where you are located. In Austria lux cars with lots of HP are cheaper than the same with much less due to the insane tax that is calculated with HP.

E.g on my F10 with 258HP I pay around 1,4k tax (without insurance) per year. If I want double the HP I don't pay double its much more because the formula is not linear and increases much more.

That's why noone buys those older Porsche Cayennes with 500HP, super expensive replacement parts and high fuel consumption for the price of merely a Rolex Sub.

I always buy used, buying new is literally burning money.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

How about a watch pic? What a concept!


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Here's another.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

.


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

docvail said:


> I tend to agree.
> 
> I like the gold-print text and minute track on the original Barracuda in brown, but it didn't do it for me on the Amphion Dark Gilt. Now that I've seen true gilt relief, I wonder if what I like about the brown version is just the brown, not the gold.
> 
> Applied markers are nice. They give a dial a degree of visual texture and depth. They add character. But the gilt really does add something very cool with the way the light plays off it.


Can you do a gilt relief minute track and applied hour markers?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tennesseean_87 said:


> Can you do a gilt relief minute track and applied hour markers?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We can, but we won't.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> We can, but we won't.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Sigh.. Ok I'm too curious. Since Page&Cooper is an AD for NTH watches, I wonder.... what the heck is going on between P&C and the "bigger" brands they stock, like Laco/Damasko/Squale. It seems like every now and then the thread on f2 about them gets bumped (https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/page-cooper-experience-4715983.html).

And here's an anecdote. When I was thinking of buying a Damasko DS30 (or was it DA30) this autumn, I got advice from let's say "very well known poster on f8" to not go through P&C. That plus the reports on f2 are, honestly, difficult to match up with the fact that docvail's endorsing P&C via letting them stock NTHs. It feels like 2+2=5.

And yes I recall some things that may have been posted in this thread earlier, and then... makes me wonder, are german brands really that effed up / underhanded in terms of their business partners & production approaches?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Sigh.. Ok I'm too curious. Since Page&Cooper is an AD for NTH watches, I wonder.... what the heck is going on between P&C and the "bigger" brands they stock, like Laco/Damasko/Squale. It seems like every now and then the thread on f2 about them gets bumped (https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/page-cooper-experience-4715983.html).
> 
> And here's an anecdote. When I was thinking of buying a Damasko DS30 (or was it DA30) this autumn, I got advice from let's say "very well known poster on f8" to not go through P&C. That plus the reports on f2 are, honestly, difficult to match up with the fact that docvail's endorsing P&C via letting them stock NTHs. It feels like 2+2=5.
> 
> And yes I recall some things that may have been posted in this thread earlier, and then... makes me wonder, are german brands really that effed up / underhanded in terms of their business partners & production approaches?


No comment.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Chris is a straight-shooter, but asking him to comment on a business partner seems... ill-advised.

Anyway, I'd just like to express my wish, as a fan of watch design, to see more interesting sub hybrids, like the Scorpene or the Catalina, that use the diver as a foundation for new concepts that keep the essential robustness of the submariner design while pushing them into new territory. I'm glad that Chris has hinted that there might be more of that kind of thing on the way.


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Sigh.. Ok I'm too curious. Since Page&Cooper is an AD for NTH watches, I wonder.... what the heck is going on between P&C and the "bigger" brands they stock, like Laco/Damasko/Squale. It seems like every now and then the thread on f2 about them gets bumped (https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/page-cooper-experience-4715983.html).
> 
> And here's an anecdote. When I was thinking of buying a Damasko DS30 (or was it DA30) this autumn, I got advice from let's say "very well known poster on f8" to not go through P&C. That plus the reports on f2 are, honestly, difficult to match up with the fact that docvail's endorsing P&C via letting them stock NTHs. It feels like 2+2=5.
> 
> And yes I recall some things that may have been posted in this thread earlier, and then... makes me wonder, are german brands really that effed up / underhanded in terms of their business partners & production approaches?


Not just bigger brands. I waited 2 months for an Autodromo from them around this time last year. The only reason I finally received it was because I emailed Autodromo and asked if they really had a watch to sell me or if they were just holding on to my money for 2 months straight. I will never buy from them again.


----------



## smkader (Aug 8, 2017)

smkader said:


> Not just bigger brands. I waited 2 months for an Autodromo from them around this time last year. The only reason I finally received it was because I emailed Autodromo and asked if they really had a watch to sell me or if they were just holding on to my money for 2 months straight. I will never buy from them again.


I would like to add, it did say "in stock" when I bought it. 
New order confirmation: November 29, 2017. 
11 emails between P&C, Autodromo later and Delivery Confirmation: January 24, 2018


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Maybe let’s not bash doc’s business partners in this thread?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

It's not "bashing", it's reporting actual experiences. Why should that be verboten?


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Avo said:


> It's not "bashing", it's reporting actual experiences. Why should that be verboten?


It's not verboten, just seems like it's in bad taste to clog this thread up with that (especially since Doc understandably can't respond to it) when there's already a thread dedicated to it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heads, I say nothing, and the comments about some other business go unanswered.

Tails, I respond, and end up making points I know are true yet can't "prove", looking like I'm throwing a competitor under the bus, looking like I'm making excuses for a partner in a self-serving way, attracting unwanted attention from fans of other brands, drawing ire from people who's opinions differ, etc.

With very few and very rare exceptions, I don't have any comment in response to anyone's comments about how businesses I don't own are run, and the people who run them.

There's an entire forum available for customers to post their stories about other brands and/or retailers. This thread really isn't the place for reporting on a business I don't own, or posting comments to which I really can't respond. I can't stop anyone from doing it, but it does seem bad form to pollute the waters that way.

There are many objective, informative, unbiased, non-confrontational comments I would like to make, but experience has shown that once you open the can of worms, there's no getting the worms back into the can and the lid securely fastened. I know for certain that if I entertain the discussion, I'll be in an argument within 2 posts. 

It's an argument I don't feel like having, because it's one I can't win by having. It's one I can only win in time, when time proves what I'd have said is true. No need to say it. Time will say it for me.

I've been doing this going on 6 years. Does it seem like I know what I'm doing? If it seems like I don't, then there's probably no helping me. 

If it seems like I do, then there's probably more going on, things I'm privy to but which I can't entirely reveal, things to which I can only allude vaguely, and I hope people have seen enough to have confidence in the soundness of the decisions I make about how I run my business.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Here's a watch. Got it from a guy in Australia. Excellent service.










Here's another product of excellent service










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

I'm coming around to the appeal of California dials.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Deleted post containing previously posted info.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> I'm coming around to the appeal of California dials.


Wait for it...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## COZ (Sep 7, 2011)

Agent Sands said:


> I'm coming around to the appeal of California dials.


Yeah, I'm with you, something different. I really like the Nazario, but I need a 41-42mm piece. Tried 40mm too many times thinking I could make it work but I think the bezels (too wide) make it too small for me.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

More Dolphin









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gokce (May 10, 2018)

This is not a California dial, but beautiful nevertheless. It is true what others have said about the Carolina / Barracuda and their gilt-relief dial: it has quite a different feel than applied and printed gilt dials. It's more subtle compared to applied markers and much more alive than printed ones.

This photo is not great at showing this liveness of the dial as it was taken under low-light conditions, but I hope it at least provides a glimmer.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

My Carolina and Kingston are near impossible to photograph.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Jtragic said:


> My Carolina and Kingston are near impossible to photograph.


Yep. Photos don't do them justice 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> Regarding HP it depends where you are located. In Austria lux cars with lots of HP are cheaper than the same with much less due to the insane tax that is calculated with HP.
> 
> E.g on my F10 with 258HP I pay around 1,4k tax (without insurance) per year. If I want double the HP I don't pay double its much more because the formula is not linear and increases much more.
> 
> ...


Here we don't have anything like the taxes you see in Europe based on displacement or power. The only thing you'll get hit with is the gas-guzzler tax which applies when combined FE falls below 22mpg, which starts at $1000 and goes up from there as FE goes down. It only applies to cars though, so BMW could sell something like a supercharged X5-M with 1000 horsepower, and there would be no extra tax on it at all. That's part of the reason why you don't see cars like a 5 series with a 1.4L diesel here, there's no advantage to it.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

COZ said:


> Yeah, I'm with you, something different. I really like the Nazario, but I need a 41-42mm piece. Tried 40mm too many times thinking I could make it work but I think the bezels (too wide) make it too small for me.


For bigger Cali dial affordables, it's hard to beat the 44mm Glycine Incursore for the money. The pre-Invicta models have syringe hands, which I like better, and screw-down crowns.

They're more spartan than the Nazario, which I wear more often than the Glycines.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

So I received something "new" this morning. The NTH was feeling lonely as my only mechanical and wanted some company. I tried to get this watch at min. 5 auctions and failed every time but not this one!

I am talking about the King Seiko 45-7000. One of the last Seikos before mass production kicked in and my favourite watch design ever. The classic sub case gets place 2 on my list followed by the speedy case on place 3.

This beauty beats at 36k, features no-date (yeah Seiko used to offer non and date versions, how smart they used to be...), and a cal 4500A which is handwinding.

Its ultra thin and has a nice doomed crystal. The only con is WR. Its 50years old so I will get it completely serviced but I won't take it swimming or showering with me as I do with the Sub. A GS would have solved this with average 100m WR but I doubt that they will ever manage to get rid of ugly date windows, 40+ diameters (in dress watches) and shave off 5mm to my liking.

Pretty faces, one 36 the other 40mm. Both dials around the same size, the way it should be imo. Best of both worlds, my favourite dive watch indices & elegant polished indices with black paint in the middle on the KS.







Grammar of design case language on the KS and the best modern case shape on a sub style case. There is no other submariner style case that gets the lugs so nicely looking downwards as the NTH sub.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Not normally a California dial fan, but this one is exceptional:


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Seikogi said:


> .


How thick is the KS?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> I am talking about the King Seiko 45-7000. One of the last Seikos before mass production kicked in and my favourite watch design ever. The classic sub case gets place 2 on my list followed by the speedy case on place 3.
> 
> This beauty beats at 36k, features no-date (yeah Seiko used to offer non and date versions, how smart they used to be...), and a cal 4500A which is handwinding.
> 
> Its ultra thin and has a nice doomed crystal. The only con is WR.


I used to have one when I thought I needed a dress watch, and was curious to try out a high-beat movement. I too though this KS a very cool vintage piece.









































































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> How thick is the KS?


I don't have calipers with me but measured with a ruler around 8,5mm with glass and 7,5mm case only. The sub is insanely thin for a 300m diver. If I were to take off the sub bezel the height difference would be barely noticeable.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

ck2k01 said:


> I used to have one when I thought I needed a dress watch, and was curious to try out a high-beat movement. I too though this KS a very cool vintage piece.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great photos. Its one of the watches that makes my heart go faster 

Also, very nice Seiko chrono! Few years ago I had my eyes on a 7A38-7000. The movement has a deep history and I believe 15 jewels!

The Nazario is one of the designs I didn't like when I first saw it. Few months later after many wrist shots I started to really enjoy looking at it. The same cycle I had with now gone Seiko Monster.
With a bead of rice bracelet it looks like a 50k watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> So I received something "new" this morning. The NTH was feeling lonely as my only mechanical and wanted some company. I tried to get this watch at min. 5 auctions and failed every time but not this one!
> 
> I am talking about the King Seiko 45-7000. One of the last Seikos before mass production kicked in and my favourite watch design ever. The classic sub case gets place 2 on my list followed by the speedy case on place 3.
> 
> ...


Congrats on the KS pickup. Big fan of Seiko's case designs, and can't help but love a no-date design.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

OUT. FOR. DELIVERY.

*Why do I have to work??????*

Oh right, so I can earn money to buy watches.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

The gilt dial on the Vintage Barracuda really needs to be seen in person to appreciate all its nuances. It's really a stunning dial.










Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

JakeJD said:


> OUT. FOR. DELIVERY.
> 
> *Why do I have to work??????*
> 
> Oh right, so I can earn money to buy watches.


Lol, I feel your pain. I'm expecting a delivery also. It requires a signature and I won't be home until after the delivery window. I changed the delivery to the local FedEx store so I can pick it up after work. Now to just make it thru the work day!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Bloom said:


> The gilt dial on the Vintage Barracuda really needs to be seen in person to appreciate all its nuances. It's really a stunning dial.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Best shot I've seen of that watch yet (no offense @hwa). Cannot wait to unbox mine!


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

JakeJD said:


> Best shot I've seen of that watch yet (no offense @hwa). Cannot wait to unbox mine!


Thanks Jake!! It's really one that you have to see in person to get the full effect; pictures don't do it justice.

Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Got the Antilles, but no stock bracelet. Had been using the rubber dive strap, but figured this might be a good opportunity to try mesh. Hmm...

























Not bad...


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Word from the wife a FedEx package just got delivered. Glad she was working from home to sign but no chance of hiding this one!

I wonder how many more of these John has, date version is still available...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

JakeJD said:


> OUT. FOR. DELIVERY.
> 
> *Why do I have to work??????*
> 
> Oh right, so I can earn money to buy watches.


I have my watches delivered to me at work...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Wait, is this when we post vintage Seikos in the NTH thread? OK...:









6309-8019. It came on a black and red NATO strap, which was fuglier, and besides I hate NATO straps. This Mankey Hook Strap in screamin' safety organge showed up same day, so...

Funny thing, before I saw the other KSs in this thread, I was sniffing around WR and the 'bay for hand-wind King Seikos...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

JakeJD said:


> Best shot I've seen of that watch yet (no offense @hwa). Cannot wait to unbox mine!












Hang on, Jason, let me take my finger out of my ear so I can hear you better. All that whining you were doing had me itching for quiet. Now, then, whats that you say?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

It's a looker. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13827551


If someone offered me my choice, I certainly wouldn't go with the Tudor (assuming, of course, that I couldn't flip the Tudor and then pick up multiple watches with the funds).


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

I just picked up my 1st NTH. I see what the gilt dial fuss is all about. It's hard to capture in pictures, it just shimmers in the light. Perfect!

Great job, Doc!









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

This makes me so. freakin'. happy.









*This* is the vintage-styled dress diver I have been waiting for! 10/10, home-run. Can't say enough nice things without sounding ridiculous.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> Can't say enough nice things without sounding ridiculous.


----------



## sayhellotomylittlewrist! (Jan 24, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> I have my watches delivered to me at work...


+1.

and i even sneak off to a conference room to open up the package and take wrist shots during lunch break lol #WISSPROBLEMS


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

It's going to be a loooooooong honeymoon with this one!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

JakeJD said:


> It's going to be a loooooooong honeymoon with this one!


Superlative watch, so mucho desiro...........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

JakeJD said:


> It's going to be a loooooooong honeymoon with this one!


I agree 100%!









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

Too lazy to size the bracelet right now but it looks cracking on the cincy stealth nato...


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Some old school Lew & Huey Phantom for my trip to Latvia for work. I needed a simple timezone reference.......










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

tfw u see the Odin renders


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Someone say Cali dials are growing on them?






Guys, c'mon - give props to Rusty - he taught himself how to do animations in Solidworks, now he's got moving parts.

I can't figure out Photoshop, this cat's making movies.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> tfw u see the Odin renders


Watch for it...


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

"Guys, c'mon - give props to Rusty - he taught himself how to do animations in Solidworks, now he's got moving parts.

I can't figure out Photoshop, this cat's making movies.[/QUOTE] "

Good job, Rusty! The renders and animations are a great way to introduce the new watches.

I take pictures, crop them, adjust the colors, etc, and that's about it for me.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

doublep


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Well done, Rusty! The intro music reminds me of p... I mean watchp0rn 

Does the Azurro bezel insert change color?

Odin looks like a homerun imho.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Well done, Rusty! The intro music reminds me of p... I mean watchp0rn
> 
> Does the Azurro bezel insert change color?
> 
> Odin looks like a homerun imho.


The bezel's just blue.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Why do I check this thread after joining WPAC. Now I am convincing myself that once I sell a few watches, I should definitely pick up a black Odin! Like I don't have enough divers. It just looks so dang perfect. Good job on this one, I haven't been this tempted in a while.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> Watch for it...


A blue no date SMP 2254! Love it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Watch for it...


When this hits, I wanna see a shot of the Commander and the Odin side-by-side.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Odin is a great name for that version!

So with Avengers Endgame in mind, can we expect a GS style purple Thanos and green Loki release in 2019?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> When this hits, I wanna see a shot of the Commander and the Odin side-by-side.


I've had Odin prototypes since last Summer.

Yes, last summer. We've been sitting on the Odin design that long. We had the Odin "in the can" for over a year. I had the protos at the District Time event in DC.

Don't have my C300 any more. Can't do a side-by-side unless/until someone with a C300 shows up at a GTG with one.

Hint, hint...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

MarkND said:


> I agree 100%![/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190124/96360a399af5cc30c7e01f36d1957e1b.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo





househalfman said:


> Too lazy to size the bracelet right now but it looks cracking on the cincy stealth nato...
> 
> [/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190124/1dae23386a3d17b7bee60dca14a571fe.jpg[/IMG]


Killing it with the strap choices there, guys.



docvail said:


> Someone say Cali dials are growing on them?
> 
> [/video=youtube;NL1NBJTEuVU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL1NBJTEuVU[/video]
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> Watch for it...
> 
> [/video=youtube;fjxCfDQIi7s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjxCfDQIi7s[/video]


Crushing it with the new designs/reveals, Doc/Rusty.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Don't have my C300 any more. Can't do a side-by-side unless/until someone with a C300 shows up at a GTG with one.
> 
> Hint, hint...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

JakeJD said:


> It's going to be a loooooooong honeymoon with this one!


Beautiful shot. You guys are killing me with these. I've already got the Direnzo coming in May, but I feel the grip on my wallet rapidly loosening anyway. Best looking NTH sub to date (IMO).


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The Odin... when is it available at retailers (not at preorder but as "buy now get now or at most one week later)"?


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> The Odin... when is it available at retailers (not at preorder but as "buy now get now or at most one week later)"?


Why do you need such info when abstaining?


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

sayhellotomylittlewrist! said:


> +1.
> 
> and i even sneak off to a conference room to open up the package and take wrist shots during lunch break lol #WISSPROBLEMS


Before I started working from home I had a set of bracelet screwdrivers in my office desk. Lol


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Double


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Someone say Cali dials are growing on them?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know I now expect my bezels to auto rotate!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Great looking new releases.  My bank account hates you sir.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Fannum Phrydae!

Post 'em if you got 'em.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Fannum Phrydae? OK. Ghost Rider edition.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Everything we're making now, we're expecting in spring, sometime between March and June, probably April-May.


----------



## rickpal14 (Jul 6, 2017)

docvail said:


> Everything we're making now, we're expecting in spring, sometime between March and June, probably April-May.


So glad to hear about the decision to produce larger diameter styles in your latest email update!!! Hopefully you have the Santa Cruz in mind!!!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Another Fannum Friday Fly-by..........









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## whoa (May 5, 2013)

MarkND said:


> I just picked up my 1st NTH. I see what the gilt dial fuss is all about. It's hard to capture in pictures, it just shimmers in the light. Perfect!
> 
> Great job, Doc!
> 
> ...


What strap is this??

- whoa... Just whoa! -


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

whoa said:


> What strap is this??
> 
> - whoa... Just whoa! -


It's a Crown and Buckle Chevron strap. They are out of stock right now, but are supposed to get some in next week. They are one pieces and adjustable, length wise. They really look good on this watch.

Top view.









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## whoa (May 5, 2013)

MarkND said:


> It's a Crown and Buckle Chevron strap. They are out of stock right now, but are supposed to get some in next week. They are one pieces and adjustable, length wise. They really look good on this watch.
> 
> Top view.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the quick reply! Benn looking for something similar to the Tudor black Bay strap.. This seems to go that way! Looks thicker/softer than a nato?

- whoa... Just whoa! -


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

whoa said:


> Thanks for the quick reply! Benn looking for something similar to the Tudor black Bay strap.. This seems to go that way! Looks thicker/softer than a nato?
> 
> - whoa... Just whoa! -


It's a little thicker than a standard Nato, probably more like a Zulu. I wouldn't say it's softer, just different. It has a different weave which gives it a different feel.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Wimads said:


> Why do you need such info when abstaining?


Grrrrrrrrr


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rickpal14 said:


> So glad to hear about the decision to produce larger diameter styles in your latest email update!!! Hopefully you have the Santa Cruz in mind!!!


It's not in mind for the initial batch, but if the L/XL version sells well, no doubt we'll look to add some variety.


----------



## rickpal14 (Jul 6, 2017)

docvail said:


> It's not in mind for the initial batch, but if the L/XL version sells well, no doubt we'll look to add some variety.


Fair enough!! I'll take what I can get for now!! Thanks Doc!


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Legendary Friday

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> It's not in mind for the initial batch, but if the L/XL version sells well, no doubt we'll look to add some variety.


All the majors going smaller in diameter, doc sizes up!!

Looking forward to seeing what these will look like.

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> All the majors going smaller in diameter, doc sizes up!!
> 
> Looking forward to seeing what these will look like.
> 
> ...


Meh, we'll see if this is a good idea or a bad idea soon enough.

The NTH Subs have been great, wonderful, fantastic. We're ready to do something a little different, make "our Pelagos", if you will - vintage-styled, but less of an homage, more originality in the design, yet still familiar, in a good way.

With each new version of the 40mm Subs, the calls for a larger version have become louder and more numerous. Now that we have some distribution built out with our retail partners, it makes sense to add a new model, something still within the brand's vintage theme, but a little different.

What we're working on isn't simply a blown-up version of the 40mm Subs. There will be a family resemblance, for sure, but there will be clear differences.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Get your hands off of me, you damned double post!


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

Those double posts seem to be a product of using a computer to post on Watchuseek. Of course, it would harder to type up a wall of text on smart phone or tablet. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

They aren't too hard to beat with a bit of luck and some smarts.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Not joking, how "big" beyond 40mm are we talking?

I've always thought the size, width and thickness, was a huge attractions of the subs.

I know the Nacken totally changed my perspective of my 43mm Chr. Ward Trident for example. You wouldn't think 3mm would matter that much, but bruddah let me tell you....it DOES.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Any idea what the L2L might be on the larger ones Doc? My Aevig and SKX are both 42s and wear fine, but if you're planning to go longer than 49mm, that'll be me out.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

MarkND said:


> Those double posts seem to be a product of using a computer to post on Watchuseek. Of course, it would harder to type up a wall of text on smart phone or tablet.


Double posts happen on posts from tablets too.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

yankeexpress said:


> Double posts happen on posts from tablets too.


I always use Tapatalk, maybe that's the difference?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## brent300 (Dec 10, 2018)

Just got the barracuda vintage black..... Its awesome!!!


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

MarkND said:


> I always use Tapatalk, maybe that's the difference?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


I've e had them on tapatalk.

I wouldn't mind 38mm subs, but I wouldn't buy another after the Carolina. She's here to stay.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All will be revealed in time.

I'm not into divulging more than "bigger sub" right now.


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

on a night out.. #notgiltrelief


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I'm not into divulging more than "bigger sub" right now.


NTH Tub? joking, joking.

Looking forward to this, whatever it is. I've said before that the 4 NTH Subs I sold, I sold 'em mostly because they felt a touch too small while wearing. So a bigger sub (tub) but still made as nicely as the subs (steel bezel inserts, nice dials, good lume, good case) would be the bees knees.

Bonus points if you go with 23mm lug width just to spite everyone 

p.s. word on the watch-youtube-media-street is that gold details and even gold cased watches are coming back.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Bonus points if you go with 23mm lug width just to spite everyone


There's been more than a few times were I've found a really interesting watch, liked the design, size seemed good and.... oh. 19mm lugs. See ya. I have a big pile of 20 and 22mm straps, and that's what I'll be using thank you.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yeah, same here. Ain't nothing a bigger deal-killer than a watch using 19, 21 or 23mm lugs. Thankfully most microbrands are well aware of this.


----------



## Fabrizio_Morini (May 20, 2017)

Good morning guys. I have just received this wonderful Barracuda Vintage gilt dial and I would like to size the bracelet. In order not to make any disaster, does anybody know if there are screws or pins in the bracelet?









Sent from my NX531J using Tapatalk


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Fabrizio_Morini said:


> Good morning guys. I have just received this wonderful Barracuda Vintage gilt dial and I would like to size the bracelet. In order not to make any disaster, does anybody know if there are screws or pins in the bracelet?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's screws, not pins in the bracelet.


----------



## Fabrizio_Morini (May 20, 2017)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> It's screws, not pins in the bracelet.


Ok thanks. I have also asked because the arrows stampe on the back were confusing me.

Sent from my NX531J using Tapatalk


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

+1 on how incredible the Barracuda Vintage Black is. UK based, so I picked up apparently the last no date version Page & Cooper had in stock (and tbf given some online commentary I was a bit wary about that...but it was a pretty flawless transaction, no complaints from me)

my photos are notoriously poor compared to the shots already on here so I'm not gonna even try, but suffice to say, not even the best of them really capture how stunning that dial is as the light catches it at different angles - its very different from my Amphion Dark Gilt, and that's a heck of nice a watch in its own right

Consider me converted to gilt relief dials - going to be interesting to see what else Doc may cook up in future using them


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Awesome


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

HSSB said:


> (and tbf given some online commentary I was a bit wary about that...but it was a pretty flawless transaction, no complaints from me)


Thank you for mentioning this btw.


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

tc3 said:


> on a night out.. #notgiltrelief
> 
> View attachment 13833985


I think this would make an awesome watch with a gilt relief 3-6-9 dial.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Fabrizio_Morini said:


> Ok thanks. I have also asked because the arrows stampe on the back were confusing me.
> 
> Sent from my NX531J using Tapatalk


I know. I've been fooled 2 times before by the arrows.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> I know. I've been fooled 2 times before by the arrows.


Me too, from two microbrands other than NTH. Broke my $2 pin-pusher gizmo the first time, thankfully did not harm the watch. Why watch companies don't routinely include a little instruction sheet with these sorts of details (maybe doc does, I dunno) is beyond me.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

The little Dutch watch


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Avo said:


> Me too, from two microbrands other than NTH. Broke my $2 pin-pusher gizmo the first time, thankfully did not harm the watch. Why watch companies don't routinely include a little instruction sheet with these sorts of details (maybe doc does, I dunno) is beyond me.


If customers feel strongly enough that I ought to have little books printed up and shipped out with the watches, which is to say, so strongly that they'd be willing to pay more for the watch, I'll do it.

In the meantime, the little card that comes with the watch says everything you need to know is on our website.

And, what do you know? The card doesn't lie...


----------



## Fabrizio_Morini (May 20, 2017)

docvail said:


> If customers feel strongly enough that I ought to have little books printed up and shipped out with the watches, which is to say, so strongly that they'd be willing to pay more for the watch, I'll do it.
> 
> In the meantime, the little card that comes with the watch says everything you need to know is on our website.
> 
> And, what do you know? The card doesn't lie - https://nthwatches.com/apps/help-center#!how-do-i-size-my-bracelet.


Thank you Docvail, I didn't read it. The watch is superb and I have bought it after that I saw the Carolina, that unfortunate is without date but have a strong meaning for the brothers.

Sent from my NX531J using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

"Why the hell are there arrows on the inside of the links?"

I found myself asking that same question. Why would they do that? Doesn't that indicate folded split pins?

Not necessarily.

With some bracelet links, like the gen 1 bracelets, the shape of the links is such that it's obvious which surface is the inside, and which is the outside. 

Likewise, with a bracelet like the DevilRay's, even though the shape wasn't any indication, only the outer surface was polished. The inner surface was brushed. So, obvious which side faces out, and which side faces in.

Not so with the new bracelets. Link shape doesn't tell you which is the inner surface and which is the outer. Neither does the finish. 

Know what does?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Any. One?

Yeah, the arrows on the inside of the links. They point the direction for the screws to be removed. Those arrows guarantee no one tries to force a screw in with the link facing the wrong way while sizing their bracelet. It's an elegant solution to what might otherwise be a problem.

But, apparently everyone agrees arrows mean folded split pins, all the time, not simply indicating the direction which something like a screw might need to be removed. 

Don't get me wrong. I agree. I wasn't expecting arrows there, and soon realized they were causing widespread confusion, with an epidemic of broken split-pin removal tools, our informative website notwithstanding.

So, for future runs, we're omitting the arrows.

I predict widespread complaints from people saying that without any markings to indicate which is the inner versus outer surface of the links, they inadvertently destroyed their bracelet trying to force screws in with the links facing the wrong way.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> the little card that comes with the watch says everything you need to know is on our website.
> 
> And, what do you know? The card doesn't lie - https://nthwatches.com/apps/help-center#!how-do-i-size-my-bracelet.


Good to know, I wish every watch company would do the same.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



EL_GEEk said:


> Too much gold going on in here. Let's Ice things up a bit. The wife is LOVING her new watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice photos. And cool that your wife likes watches. Or at least a watch.

At one time, I'd all but convinced myself to try a Dolphin. I think the coloring, indices and hands are all interesting. Would you wear it? Or does it really say "woman's watch" in person?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Nice photos. And cool that your wife likes watches. Or at least a watch.
> 
> At one time, I'd all but convinced myself to try a Dolphin. I think the coloring, indices and hands are all interesting. Would you wear it? Or does it really say "woman's watch" in person?


So far, most of the Dolphin sales have been to men, FWIW.

No doubt some may be buying gifts for a woman, but I've seen guys posting wrist shots.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> I've had Odin prototypes since last Summer.
> 
> Yes, last summer. We've been sitting on the Odin design that long. We had the Odin "in the can" for over a year. I had the protos at the District Time event in DC.
> 
> ...


I likey will


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> "Why the hell are there arrows on the inside of the links?"
> 
> So, for future runs, we're omitting the arrows.
> 
> I predict widespread complaints from people saying that without any markings to indicate which is the inner versus outer surface of the links, they inadvertently destroyed their bracelet trying to force screws in with the links facing the wrong way.


What about just a different symbol, like a dot, or maybe a screw icon?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Got 2 sets of links from Doc this week and installed them in the Bahia and Carolina.

Still waiting for 2 sets from the other NTH dealers for the Catalina and Navario Sauro.


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I don't know for sure, but I have been told that most major brands don't include instructions on bracelet sizing because they don't consider any part of the product except putting it on and off a "user serviceable" part of the product. They assume that you will dutifully take your bracelet to a knowledgeable jeweler for sizing, as most non-WIS probably do...

So, to them, not including bracelet sizing instructions is as natural as phone manufacturers not including battery replacement instructions with your phone. Pros only.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> So far, most of the Dolphin sales have been to men, FWIW.


IT'S EUROPEAN!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> What about just a different symbol, like a dot, or maybe a screw icon?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Where does it say that arrows ONLY mean folded split pins?

You see where I'm going with this, right?

It's shared knowledge, communal. The first time anyone saw it, no one knew what the arrows meant. Then someone figured out they point the direction something (in most cases, folded split pins) need to be pushed out.

Notice, it's just an arrow. It's not a drawing of a split pin, or something that's close, like a lambda (Λ).

Okay, so now we all believe arrows = folded split pins, but, they really don't. They're just directional indicators.

The bracelet suppliers already came up with tooling to use arrows as universal signs, indicating "something inside the link needs to be removed, in this direction".

Now, what, we have to come up with a new language of symbols, wherein arrows ONLY mean folded split pins, but there's another sign for screws, and I guess another sign for pin-and-collar, and who knows what else?

How does that help the guy who doesn't know the language? He's still going to be lost the first time he sees these symbols.

They're screws, or split pins, or whatever. Get a magnifying glass or a loupe out, make sure you know what you're dealing with before you start using the wrong tool, and avoid breaking the tool or your bracelet. Take 3 extra seconds to do a job the right way (how we all know we should do it), and save some aggravation.

I get it. "Everyone" thinks arrows = folded split pins (and everyone CAN'T be wrong). I can't help that. I didn't decide that. The industry didn't decide that. The online community decided that.

But what if the online community is wrong? What if the entire industry just uses arrows to indicate the direction something inside the link needs to travel to be removed, and everyone's just mistakenly assumed they meant folded split pins?

I recently started seeing people post videos to Facebook, showing the right way to use a can opener, and do other mundane tasks, things most of us have been doing wrong all our lives. It happens. We can all be wrong.

Arrows on the inside of links don't equal folded split pins.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Nice photos. And cool that your wife likes watches. Or at least a watch.
> 
> At one time, I'd all but convinced myself to try a Dolphin. I think the coloring, indices and hands are all interesting. Would you wear it? Or does it really say "woman's watch" in person?


I would ABSOLUTELY wear it in a heart beat, the wife is in honey moon face with it and is wearing it all the time. Also the bracelet so is sized for her wrist. I'll try and take a wrist shot on a different strap tomorrow

You have to see the watch in person, the dial is truly stunning and it is extremely legible. I'm a fan of white dials and this surely does not disappoint










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Got 2 sets of links from Doc this week and installed them in the Bahia and Carolina.
> 
> Still waiting for 2 sets from the other NTH dealers for the Catalina and Navario Sauro.


Talk to Watch Gauge.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Nice photos. And cool that your wife likes watches. Or at least a watch.
> 
> At one time, I'd all but convinced myself to try a Dolphin. I think the coloring, indices and hands are all interesting. Would you wear it? Or does it really say "woman's watch" in person?


Seems pretty unisex to me. The indices remind me a bit of some of the classic Rolexes that used smaller indices, and I don't think the handset is any more feminine than typical Mercedes hands.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Where is it written that the arrows ever meant split pins anyway? Or the direction of ejection. Why wouldn’t the arrow indicate the point of entry of the bracelet pin remover tool? The knowledge is tribal, we know. But it’s not necessarily a written in stone commandment. Or is it?


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Oberon beeches!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Where does it say that arrows ONLY mean folded split pins?
> 
> You see where I'm going with this, right?


Don't get me wrong - I'm with you. I take the arrow to mean the direction the pin goes out (or, more importantly, the side you should put it back in from, which isn't intuitive because I could see how the arrow would indicate direction of pin travel, meaning the pin should be pushed in again from the opposite side it came out of).

I see your point - a new icon likely will ultimately lead to "this icon means it's always a screw" - which defeats the purpose if that's not the case. If it is the case, you then need an icon for every pin type, plus an arrow for direction.

Just not sure how to really help the situation (assuming it's a big enough issue to fix) I guess. Maybe some print on the receipt? Just trying to figure what might save you some headache.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Sure, an arrow doesn't inherently symbolise a split-pin, it's just an arrow pointing our a direction. But in the watch community, it pretty clearly does indicate that. So, within the area, the definition of what an arrow means must be updated to match reality. That's how language works, across the board - words develop new meanings, and once widespread enough those meanings get added to the dictionaries and the "official" language. 

Railing against that, and starting lengthy arguments about "arrows should just be arrows darnit and you kids are using them wrong" is a pointless effort. Languages evolve, and so does symbology. That ain't a bad thing. Besides, using an arrow to mean "this is the bottom of the link" is a very, very big symbological stretch (nothing inherent in the arrow symbol means "this is the bottom surface").

P.S. Most (all) bracelets with split pins I've seen/had used arrow indicators. Most (all, except for the new subs) bracelets using screw links don't use arrow indicators. An arrow on a screw-bracelet is pointless (heh), since screws operate in a highly specific, well-understood fashion. You twist it and it moves out. Splitpins are almost uniformly thin, and depending on milling, you *could* force them out the wrong way. There, the arrows are *necessary* to avoid really damaging the bracelet. With screws, that necessity is utterly gone, especially as you never push a screw in/out, you twist it and it follows the thread.


*shrug* the bracelet factory messed up. That's all it is. No need to try and tell the world that the world is somehow using common indicators wrong...


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

X2-Elijah said:


> Most (all) bracelets with split pins I've seen/had used arrow indicators. Most (all, except for the new subs) bracelets using screw links don't use arrow indicators.


In the past three months I've bought two new non-NTH microbrand watches; both have bracelets with screws and arrows.

Alas, the screws and arrows of outrageous bracelets!


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Nice photos. And cool that your wife likes watches. Or at least a watch.
> 
> At one time, I'd all but convinced myself to try a Dolphin. I think the coloring, indices and hands are all interesting. Would you wear it? Or does it really say "woman's watch" in person?


I have one and love it. Not a "woman's watch" but I can see how some ladies might want one. Saw a smallish woman wearing some big ol' sub the other day at the shopping... now THAT looked out of place. The Dolphin is no more 'feminine' than a yachtmaster. Beautiful watch. Love the handset and how they play with the indices. Thanks doc!


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Disneydave said:


> What about just a different symbol, like a dot, or maybe a screw icon?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

This is all very interesting, but my Amphion Dark Gilt has no arrow, no screwhead, no nuthin' on the backs of the links, and I didn't ruin any tools or the bracelet. Just LOOK at the darn thing. It is obvious, fer crineoutlowd.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

***mental note to self....

NEVER. EVER start a watch company.....


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

GlenRoiland said:


> ***mental note to self....
> 
> NEVER. EVER start a watch company.....


You and me, too!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> ***mental note to self....
> 
> NEVER. EVER start a watch company.....


It's much better to just know someone who has one. So you can keep giving them suggestions and advice. Something to do when you're bored and you enjoy watching pyrotechnics...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> ***mental note to self....
> 
> NEVER. EVER start a watch company.....


This forum has developed new ways to create double posts. I thought I had it figured out, but now it took me to the "advanced page". Pretty soon, it's going to start double posting my edits to my double post.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

dmjonez said:


> This forum has developed new ways to create double posts. I thought I had it figured out, but now it took me to the "advanced page". Pretty soon, it's going to start double posting my edits to my double post.


You would think that after all of these months that a moderator or administrator would have come up with an answer to these double posts. That is, if they wanted to.

Oh this one was doubled, too, until I killed that.


----------



## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

docvail said:


> All will be revealed in time.
> 
> I'm not into divulging more than "bigger sub" right now.


I for one, am excited. I owned one of the very first Nackens and ultimately and reluctantly sold it because it was a tad too small for my wrist. Loved everything else about it and do sigh wistfully when thinking about it. A new NTH sub in the 42 to 44 mm range would be greatly appreciated by at least some of us.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Sure, an arrow doesn't inherently symbolise a split-pin, it's just an arrow pointing our a direction. But in the watch community, it pretty clearly does indicate that. So, within the area, the definition of what an arrow means must be updated to match reality. That's how language works, across the board - words develop new meanings, and once widespread enough those meanings get added to the dictionaries and the "official" language.
> 
> Railing against that, and starting lengthy arguments about "arrows should just be arrows darnit and you kids are using them wrong" is a pointless effort. Languages evolve, and so does symbology. That ain't a bad thing. Besides, using an arrow to mean "this is the bottom of the link" is a very, very big symbological stretch (nothing inherent in the arrow symbol means "this is the bottom surface").
> 
> ...


Disagree.

The factory didn't mess up. The community is wrong, and it can (and likely will) continue being wrong, until the community updates its knowledge.

It's exactly like all the people using a can opener the wrong way (and I've been one of them), for most of their lives. Did the company which made the can opener mess up?

Clearly, it didn't.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

MikeyT said:


> You would think that after all of these months that a moderator or administrator would have come up with an answer to these double posts. That is, if they wanted to.
> 
> Oh this one was doubled, too, until I killed that.


How'd you kill it?

I previously realized it was happening when I got the "wait 10 seconds before posting again" message, and then I'd just close the window. This time the software took me to the "advanced page" with no other indication. I'm thinking that may have been the indicator, and if I had simply just closed THAT window it would have deleted the second post. Sadly, it won't ever let me delete a post, either the first or second one. Kind of funny, that. I've seen lots of posts that I bet people wish they could have deleted seconds after they posted them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> This is all very interesting, but my Amphion Dark Gilt has no arrow, no screwhead, no nuthin' on the backs of the links, and I didn't ruin any tools or the bracelet. Just LOOK at the darn thing. It is obvious, fer crineoutlowd.


But you have the old bracelet. It's links are C-shaped in profile. So you know which side is the inside, and which is the outside.

The new bracelets are symmetrical/ovoid in profile, and brushed on both sides. Once you get a screw out, it's not obvious which side goes in, and someone might put the screw in the wrong way, and get it stuck.

How do I know? Because the newly-made 1/2 links don't have arrows on them, and I twice almost jammed a screw in one going the wrong way.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

If you can afford a $650 bracelet and lack enough life experience not to force any mechanical part, consider your busted part replacement costs your tuition. Work smarter, not harder. Watches aren’t hammer and duct tape time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> If you can afford a $650 bracelet and lack enough life experience not to force any mechanical part, consider your busted part replacement costs your tuition. Work smarter, not harder. *Watches aren't hammer and duct tape time*.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


GLEN: "Hold my beer..."


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> GLEN: "Hold my beer..."


Ima tell you first hand, the results weren't easily repeatable. Apparently, one must have first-hand experience in removing testicles from unwilling subjects as subject-matter training.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> Ima tell you first hand, the results weren't easily repeatable. Apparently, one must have first-hand experience in removing testicles from unwilling subjects as subject-matter training.


I know you're joking, but, at the same time, it does make you wonder if he's got some instrument that looks like a one-handed pair of testicle-scissors (the dog-balls equivalent of bolt-cutters), so he can hold the sack with his other hand, or if he's using a scalpel, or if there's somehow room for an assistant to get in there and hold the balls for him so he can see what he's doing.

And what about cats? Smaller ball-scissors? Do they come in a set, like finger-nail and toe-nail clippers, or is it one size snips all?


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> GLEN: "Hold my beer..."


You beat me to the punch! As always...late to the party.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> Ima tell you first hand, the results weren't easily repeatable. Apparently, one must have first-hand experience in removing testicles from unwilling subjects as subject-matter training.


You must be correct, because I easily repeated the process a few times.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I know you're joking, but, at the same time, it does make you wonder if he's got some instrument that looks like a one-handed pair of testicle-scissors (the dog-balls equivalent of bolt-cutters), so he can hold the sack with his other hand, or if he's using a scalpel, or if there's somehow room for an assistant to get in there and hold the balls for him so he can see what he's doing.
> 
> And what about cats? Smaller ball-scissors? Do they come in a set, like finger-nail and toe-nail clippers, or is it one size snips all?


Have you seen the emasculators they use on farms?........


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

dmjonez said:


> How'd you kill it?
> 
> I previously realized it was happening when I got the "wait 10 seconds before posting again" message, and then I'd just close the window. This time the software took me to the "advanced page" with no other indication. I'm thinking that may have been the indicator, and if I had simply just closed THAT window it would have deleted the second post. Sadly, it won't ever let me delete a post, either the first or second one. Kind of funny, that. I've seen lots of posts that I bet people wish they could have deleted seconds after they posted them.


When you see that page, just delete it. Before it posts, delete it. Then when it takes you back to the previous page, reload. That will, (or at least always has) post your original.

Edit: I haven't had a double post since I figured this out.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



GlenRoiland said:


> Have you seen the emasculators they use on farms?........


WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T GOOGLE SEARCH THIS. I warned you.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Disagree.
> 
> The factory didn't mess up. The community is wrong, and it can (and likely will) continue being wrong, until the community updates its knowledge.
> 
> ...


Okay, so after this second mention of the can opener thing I had to look it up. Holy smokes! I am looking forward to opening a can now for some strange reason. On that youtube adventure I also discovered something else I have been doing wrong.
I can't be the only one who pulls the whole roll of plastic wrap or aluminum foil out of the box on accident. Who knew that the boxes had a built in roll securing device?!?!
Mind blown









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



GlenRoiland said:


> Have you seen the emasculators they use on farms?........


There's a "Farmer's daughter" joke in here, somewhere, I'm certain of it...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> When you see that page, just delete it. Before it posts, delete it. Then when it takes you back to the previous page, reload. That will, (or at least always has) post your original.
> 
> Edit: I haven't had a double post since I figured this out.


RE - double posts...

I haven't seen it with Tapatalk, only on a PC browser.

When I've seen it happen, at least until recently, it almost always involved hitting "submit reply", but instead of the page refreshing and showing the thread with my post now added, it refreshed to that "edit post" page, with the message "This forum requires that you wait 10 seconds between posts. Please try again in 9 seconds.".

First time it happened, I clicked "submit" again, and, boom, double post. Since then, I've been right-clicking on the thread title, to open up a new tab, going to the last page of the thread within that new tab, confirming that my post was added, then closing the other tab with the edit-post page.

I do all that to avoid the frustration of having to re-type a post, in the event my post didn't actually get added, and navigating away before confirming risked losing my work.

Yes, I see the cosmic justice, given the length of some of my posts.

But, lately, most of my double posts have just happened, on their own, and sometimes separated by other people's posts between them, which is just weird. They're more random, apparently, now.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> There's a "Farmer's daughter" joke in here, somewhere, I'm certain of it...


Umm, no. 15"-18" long OAL.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> Okay, so after this second mention of the can opener thing I had to look it up. Holy smokes! I am looking forward to opening a can now for some strange reason. On that youtube adventure I also discovered something else I have been doing wrong.
> I can't be the only one who pulls the whole roll of plastic wrap or aluminum foil out of the box on accident. Who knew that the boxes had a built in roll securing device?!?!
> Mind blown


My sincere interest isn't in arguing with the crowd about the arrows on the links. I don't see the big value in it, for me or for the crowd.

For certain, the can-opener thing, the arrows, and all those "10 things you've been doing wrong your whole life" sorts of click-bait articles do point to the communication gap which exists between companies that sell products and the people who buy the products.

My websites have always had pages set up with all our terms and operating instructions, easily found, in plain language, and easily scanned for relevant info. The emails we get tell me 99% of customers never look there.

Every product page has full specs. And yet, we get people who somehow find the contact page on our website, to submit a question, asking about specs we list on the product page.

Obviously, we don't like reading instructions.

I've never bothered to look at the sides of the box on a roll of cellophane or tin foil. I could argue that the manufacturers should print a note on the FRONT of the box, where I'd see it, rather than the sides of the box, where I'll never look, but the manufacturers aren't going to do that. I'm sure they know more about how to make and package their product than I do, so I'll defer to them on the what's and why's of it all.

So, logically, I have to push back a bit, when someone suggests we need to provide a printed booklet, thick with instructions, maintenance guidelines, details about sizing bracelets, etc. Why would I? That's going to add to my cost, no one will read it, and we'll still get the same emails and questions. I've gotten those booklets with other watches. Never opened one. If I want to know something, I do an internet search.

Extending the logic further, suppose we did come up with another marking for the inside of the links. Okay, I already know what will happen. We'll STILL get people who have problems, because they don't know what the markings mean.

Even if we come up with something that makes it obvious that the bracelet uses screws, not split pins, this isn't the first time we've had customers with screw-related issues. People use the wrong size screw-drivers, or drivers with blunted tips.

I've read comments from people who tried using a screw-driver on bracelets that really were split-pins. They see the seam at the end of the pin, and think it's a slot for a screw-driver. In most cases, I guarantee the links had arrows on the inside, which, if I understand the crowd correctly, ALWAYS means "split pins". If so, what possessed that person to try turning the pin with a screw driver???

This isn't a challenge the industry can fix from the manufacturing side. Even the smartest of people can do bonehead things.

The watch-geek crowd will continue to perpetuate a vast array of ideas which are entirely wrong (Swiss is always better, Seiko owns Orient, arrows always mean split-pins, perfection is a reasonable QC expectation, microbrands don't offer service as good as big brands, water resistance ratings mean something other than what they mean, etc, etc, etc), no matter what we do.

The onus is not on me to fix what's wrong here. I already know how the conversation will go if I go back to our bracelet supplier and demand they create new tooling for new markings on bracelet links, to conform to the incorrect assumptions of a thin segment of the market.

The onus is on individuals to be open-minded to the idea they might be wrong about something, and open to learning new information, and incorporating that new info into their knowledge. Hopefully, when lots of people learn something new, they go out and spread that knowledge (hence, "that's not how you can-opener" videos on Facebook).

We're in a stalemate here. Kvetching online about it isn't going to change anything. Who's wrong and who's right matters less than increasing and spreading knowledge, and as always, I'm more than happy to do my part...

Arrows don't mean split-pins. They're just pointing a direction, and making sure you don't put the inside of the link on the outside of the bracelet, and jam a screw in the wrong way.

If you do that, don't ask me to sell you two links, to replace the two you can't use because they're stuck together with a wrong-way-in screw sticking out. I don't sell links. I sell complete bracelets. Boneheaded moves by people too smart to read instructions are not covered under warranty.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

I never once thought the bracelets on the DR or Renegade were split pins and thought the arrows were there to remind me which way the screw came out. It is wild to me that this is a big deal.

You wanna know why I didn't have any trouble with sizing my bracelets (aside from having done it on other watches)?









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fabrizio_Morini (May 20, 2017)

I have just found the time to size this beauty that I have received on Friday. The dial is marvellous and the overall quality of the watch and bracelet is really high. My compliments and thanks to Docvail for having done such a great job. Thanks also to Watchgauge to send it to me, in Italy, really fast and with many gadgets. 









Inviato dal mio SM-N9300 utilizzando Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> I never once thought the bracelets on the DR or Renegade were split pins and thought the arrows were there to remind me which way the screw came out. It is wild to me that this is a big deal.
> 
> You wanna know why I didn't have any trouble with sizing my bracelets (aside from having done it on other watches)?
> 
> ...












To be fair, we needed to update that page on the site. Indeed it used to say arrows indicated split pins. It was one of the guys in the BSHT thread who tipped me off, after getting the Carolina, which was shipped prior to the other new models.

Not that it's mattered much. I saw at least half a dozen different "broke my split pin remover" incidents long after we'd updated the website.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> Umm, no. 15"-18" long OAL.


One-handed animal-ball removers.

How are humans smart enough to invent something like that, but not smart enough for millions of us to avoid using a can opener the wrong way most of our lives?

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



GlenRoiland said:


> You beat me to the punch! As always...late to the party.


That's because you're a grappler, not a boxer. Duh.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> Umm, no. 15"-18" long OAL.


I could have gone my whole life without having seen those. My wife keeps asking me "Why do you keep wincing, and grimacing?"


----------



## Fabrizio_Morini (May 20, 2017)

Wonderful lume the Barracuda Vintage gilt dial 









Sent from my NX531J using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Loving me some WALL-O!-TEXT!!


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Nice photos. And cool that your wife likes watches. Or at least a watch.
> 
> At one time, I'd all but convinced myself to try a Dolphin. I think the coloring, indices and hands are all interesting. Would you wear it? Or does it really say "woman's watch" in person?


Grabbed the Dolphin from the wife and put it on a cheapest nato strap suede so I could wear it



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Loving me some WALL-O!-TEXT!!


My text-walls bring all the boys to the yard...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> My text-walls bring all the boys to the yard...


I got carpal tunnel ignoring the last one. I figure you said something like: if you broke it, i aint fixing it, and i aint got no time fo dat

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> I got carpal tunnel ignoring the last one. I figure you said something like: if you broke it, i aint fixing it, and i aint got no time fo dat
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Seriously, you're like my best frenemy.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



rpm1974 said:


> That's because you're a grappler, not a boxer. Duh.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actual lol...


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> I could have gone my whole life without having seen those. My wife keeps asking me "Why do you keep wincing, and grimacing?"
> 
> View attachment 13838677


This is the best. I was laughing so hard And typing, my wife actually had to ask in an accusatory tone, "who are you typing to that is making you so happy?"

I just showed her the last few pages. She couldn't contain laughter, managing to get out, "isn't this a watch forum?". Now she gets why I hang around here.

Dave....this is the best thing I have ever seen. I absolutely love it, and a m going to print it out for work....

Actual, literal, laughing out loud. Thanks to the pilot, you genius!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep 6 today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



EL_GEEk said:


> Grabbed the Dolphin from the wife and put it on a cheapest nato strap suede so I could wear it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice. Thanks for sharing. I found a review thread by sillygoose (a woman, ironically given my concerns) that also had some very flattering photos.

I'm sorely tempted. If I'm not careful, I may go from zero NTHs to a pair in a span of two weeks.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

MikeyT said:


> When you see that page, just delete it. Before it posts, delete it. Then when it takes you back to the previous page, reload. That will, (or at least always has) post your original.
> 
> Edit: I haven't had a double post since I figured this out.


I may have misled you. When you see that page, just push your back button. Then it will go back to what you typed in the box. Then reload.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

MikeyT said:


> I may have misled you. When you see that page, just push your back button. Then it will go back to what you typed in the box. Then reload.


Yes, this is correct. I did exactly the same, for the past 2 years, if I remembered correctly. I seldom have any double post since then.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Yes, this is correct. I did exactly the same, for the past 2 years, if I remembered correctly. I seldom have any double post since then.


When you get the "wait 10 seconds to post again" page, just click this link, then click "Last Page."


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> I'm sorely tempted. If I'm not careful, I may go from zero NTHs to a pair in a span of two weeks.


You won't be the first, nor the last 

"Life is too short, buy all the watches you like and can afford"

Follow me on IG: @watchexposure


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

JakeJD said:


> When you get the "wait 10 seconds to post again" page, just click this link, then click "Last Page."
> 
> View attachment 13840419


This. Avoids doubleposts 100% of the time.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

JakeJD said:


> When you get the "wait 10 seconds to post again" page, just click this link, then click "Last Page."
> 
> View attachment 13840419


Yup, this will work too. :-!


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Double post, sorry


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

EL_GEEk said:


> Grabbed the Dolphin from the wife and put it on a cheapest nato strap suede so I could wear it


I have a question for Doc, I'm sure this may have been answered before, but I need to know: Why using renders on the site and not real product photographs?

I plan to buy a NTH through Serious Watches and I was deciding between the Renegade and the full lume one, but looking at the real life photographs of this one made me re-think.

I believe this is a common occurrence for Doc's watches, several times when I've seen the pre-order renders I think "well, that looks nice", but when I see actual photographs from other people I bang my head for missing a pre-order.

I understand that on the pre-order you may not have all the models ready, but once they're on stock seems like an obvious decision. I'm sure there most be a really good reason for doing that, just wanted to provide my honest feedback.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

Still in the honeymoon phase with the Barracuda. Swapped to a Nick Mankey strap, super comfy.









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

So clean, I love the Santa Fe! This one has been modified with skeleton snowflake hands and an aftermarket jubilee and I think it really enhances the watch. I know Chris hates jubilees but in this case I think it works.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

MarkND said:


> Still in the honeymoon phase with the Barracuda. Swapped to a Nick Mankey strap, super comfy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Too awesome. I just ordered one of these myself. :-!

Haven't been able to take my BVB off!


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

JakeJD said:


> Too awesome. I just ordered one of these myself. :-!
> 
> Haven't been able to take my BVB off!
> 
> View attachment 13842827


The gilt dial is addictive!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Small break from all the giltiness going on in here lately.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_2846.jpg


----------



## volthause (Oct 4, 2018)

Tell me again how I'm using a can opener wrong? I'll just leave this here...


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 13843001


I'm a sucker for black/red combos.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

#twocrowntuesday










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

volthause said:


> Tell me again how I'm using a can opener wrong? I'll just leave this here...


But... But...

I saw it on the internet, it HAS to be true! ;-)


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Two Crown Tuesday it most certainly is:









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

volthause said:


> Tell me again how I'm using a can opener wrong? I'll just leave this here...
> 
> View attachment 13843003


Would it be correct to assume that this is part of the original patent filing?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

volthause said:


> Tell me again how I'm using a can opener wrong? I'll just leave this here...
> 
> View attachment 13843003


Not that kind of can opener. The newer ones have a different design, and some added features. You'll get it about 24 seconds in on this video...


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

There are more than one kind of can opener duh.

There are top cut (old style) which, leave sharp edges and poke down into your food. Yuck.

The new style smooth open (side cut) are way better, leave no sharp edges and don't contaminate your food. Most folks use a side cut smooth opener wrong because they grew up with the top cut style.









Can we now conclude the great can opener debate of ought 19?


----------



## volthause (Oct 4, 2018)

docvail said:


> Not that kind of can opener. The newer ones have a different design, and some added features. You'll get it about 24 seconds in on this video...


Totally got it when it came up in the discussion, I've used side-cut openers with great effectiveness. Just trying to add some humor in the fray.

With that said, that can opener in the video is a down-cut variety not a side-cut (by the looks of it)


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Did you watch till the end when she flips the lid over?

Side cut.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> I have a question for Doc, I'm sure this may have been answered before, but I need to know: Why using renders on the site and not real product photographs?
> 
> I plan to buy a NTH through Serious Watches and I was deciding between the Renegade and the full lume one, but looking at the real life photographs of this one made me re-think.
> 
> ...


TL; DR - it's complicated.

1. Professional photography is crazy-expensive, and yet isn't guaranteed to produce fantastic images. I've spent a TON of money having pro photos done, and never been entirely thrilled with the results.

2. Professional photography can suck up a lot of time and resources. Each version of a new model requires dozens of shots. I end up being there, in the studio, with the photographer, the entire time, so that we don't have to come back and re-shoot later, when we don't get the images we want.

3. No matter what you shoot, pro photos end up going through a lot of editing, to remove glare, fix colors, etc. The photo environment starts off very "artificial", with a properly set-up light-box. When you take images from an artificial environment, and do a lot of editing to get them "right", they end up looking "different" than reality, and not always very flattering to the product.

4. Rusty's getting so good with 3D renders, that we can now provide images that are certainly AT LEAST as good as what we've gotten from photographers, as far as being accurate depictions of the product, but also flattering enough without going over-board, and we have a lot more control over the digital environment, and positioning of the 3D model.

Instead of spending two days in a photographer's studio and paying through the nose to get two dozen images that all look slightly different, Rusty can produce those same images with the models positioned EXACTLY the same way, with EXACTLY the same lighting settings, and the colors precisely calibrated. It allows us to have a repeatable system in place for each new release. With photography, we never got better, and sometimes we got worse. With 3D illustration, we're getting better each time.

5. There was a time when we'd produce 300-500 watches, sell 40%-50% in pre-order, to guys who demanded to see real-world photos of prototypes (requiring us to spend 4 months making prototypes, 1/3 of our year), and the rest would go into inventory.

Paying for photos in that scenario seemed to make sense, sort of, less so when we were spending thousands of dollars to photograph prototypes, but then making visual changes for production, leading people to ask why the watches look different than they do in our photos.

That's not our scenario any more. We're not prototyping. We're not really doing pre-orders. I don't need to care about guys demanding to see real-world photos before they'll pre-order, because we're not doing pre-orders.

We're promoting with 3D renders, and when the watches are sold, we're leveraging real-world photos from our customers, some of whom are producing better images than what pros have produced. We've added some to the product pages on our website, but 90% of our web traffic is coming from Instagram, Facebook, and the Forums, where people have already seen real-world pics.

Why does it matter WHERE you see the pretty pics, so long as you see them? At this point, I wonder if we really need images on our website at all.

Follow me on the logic - no one who visits our website just stumbled on it by accident. If you're there, you got there somehow. You've seen our watches SOMEWHERE. I could post a link to images of those watches on IG or FB. Even if you're not a registered user of those sites, you can still see the images.

The images on our website aren't meant to sell the product. That's what social media is for. The images are just there to make sure someone doesn't buy the wrong product by accident.

Why do I need to take a dozen pieces out of my inventory, burn them up as "photographer samples", kill two days of my precious time standing around looking over a photog's shoulder, paying thousands of dollars for images not as good as Rusty's, images which will take me weeks to get from them, by which time, we're already sold out of those new models?

Screw that. One of my retailers keeps telling me, we need more pretty pictures, which flatter the product. I ask him the same thing. Why? Why would I go through all that when we're sold out? I mean - WE'RE SOLD OUT. I tell him, if you've got 3 pieces left of something in inventory, re-post some pics from our Instagram account, or take one out to the park and shoot some pics. I'm not spinning my wheels doing something unproductive just because someone thinks I should.

Everyone thinks they know what I should do, because that's how "everyone else" does it, or how it's always been done. Bullspit. "Everyone else" is dying a slow, agonizing death, yet I can't ramp up production fast enough. Clearly, what "everyone else" does isn't working, but what I'm doing is. I don't give a $hlt what people THINK works. I'm all about what I can PROVE actually does indeed work, because I measure the results.

We're coming up on 6 years in business, and 5,000 watches sold. We can't ramp up production fast enough to meet current demand. Most of my competitors, large and small, are struggling. The industry is awash in red ink. The big shows are shrinking. Major manufacturers can't deliver on their own commitments. You have no idea how bad it is.

Why would I do what they're doing?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Holy cow. Now I need to go buy a new one of those. Threw my old one away ... oh ... about 20 years ago.



docvail said:


> Not that kind of can opener. The newer ones have a different design, and some added features. You'll get it about 24 seconds in on this video...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Uhm ... because we want to see more of that guy from the Phantom photoshoot? I'd like to see him in a sub uniform, underwater, without the sub, but with a nice watch.



docvail said:


> TL; DR - it's complicated.
> 
> 1. Professional photography is crazy-expensive, and yet isn't guaranteed to produce fantastic images. I've spent a TON of money having pro photos done, and never been entirely thrilled with the results.
> 
> ...


----------



## volthause (Oct 4, 2018)

CMA22inc said:


> Did you watch till the end when she flips the lid over?
> 
> Side cut.


I believe when the blade sits at an angle like that, it means it's intended as a down-cut. The side cut blades run more parallel to the body of the opener.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Arguments about can openers.

Our threads got 'em.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Uhm ... because we want to see more of that guy from the Phantom photoshoot? I'd like to see him in a sub uniform, underwater, without the sub, but with a nice watch.


I was connected to that guy on IG, for a while. He posted some...interesting pics.

We're not connected any more.


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> There are more than one kind of can opener duh.
> 
> There are top cut (old style) which, leave sharp edges and poke down into your food. Yuck.
> 
> ...


forget the can openers, i dont think you can stick a "ought" in front of a double digit year....you'd be referring to the zero in the 20....you can go "ought 5" or "ought 9"...but from 10 onwards i think you just have to go with the number

derail the derailment of a thread?...thats how i roll ;-)


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

What Doc said. Why spend the money for photography when real life shots in different lighting are taken by yahoos like me.

View attachment 13843739


View attachment 13843917


View attachment 13843919


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I'm a broken record with this combo but what can I say? IMO it's perfect.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

You lot are soooo last century:














Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

KiwiWomble said:


> forget the can openers, i dont think you can stick a "ought" in front of a double digit year....you'd be referring to the zero in the 20....you can go "ought 5" or "ought 9"...but from 10 onwards i think you just have to go with the number
> 
> derail the derailment of a thread?...thats how i roll ;-)


It's funny (well, at least to me).

I'm aware of discussions about me, in which guys can't figure out why anyone would buy from me, if I'm in the habit of arguing with people online, even customers.

I mean...look at my customers. You guys are arguing about the proper use of "ought" when referring to years, whether or not a can opener is a top-bltch or side-bltch, and who knows what other off-topic stuff, in addition to all the on-topic stuff about bezel insert materials, finishes, size preferences, GMT styles, colors, etc, etc etc.

Maybe it's cool to argue about something, and be okay with the other guy afterwards. Maybe there's hope that we're not doomed to destroy ourselves over petty, stupid $hlt.

What those guys don't know is - I'm actually an optimist.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Ratfacedgit said:


> What Doc said. Why spend the money for photography when real life shots in different lighting are taken by yahoos like me.
> 
> View attachment 13843739
> 
> ...


Outrageously exquisite detailing and style - if I ever get to wear one of these, my gaze would be totally and constantly fixed - and how much did they go for?? it would have been well into four figures if it had been made in the home of Cuckoo clocks and Toblerone.......

Cheerz,

Alan

P.S. Terrific photograph too, Mr RFG


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Can openers and what aught year it is?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> I'm a sucker for black/red combos.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Can we get Rusty to do one of those automated renders of a can opener?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> It's funny (well, at least to me).
> 
> I'm aware of discussions about me, in which guys can't figure out why anyone would buy from me, if I'm in the habit of arguing with people online, even customers.
> 
> ...


Differentiate between the possible the plausible and the expected.

We're doomed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Can we get Rusty to do one of those automated renders of a can opener?


His day job is working for a company that makes industrial pumps and the like.

The first video he showed me looked like one robot humping another robot in a tiny robot hotel room inside an industrial pump.

True story.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> It's funny (well, at least to me).
> 
> I'm aware of discussions about me, in which guys can't figure out why anyone would buy from me, if I'm in the habit of arguing with people online, even customers.
> 
> ...


Pff, these guys are freakin' amateurs.

"Ought" (or "aught") literally means "all" or "anything," so it should never be used to mean "zero." That's "naught." So pretty much everyone in this thread is wrong.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Yabbut, people been using "aught" for years on place of zero -- "double aught buckshot" -- so it's a thing. Kinda like arrows on a bracelet indicate pins...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> Pff, these guys are freakin' amateurs.
> 
> "Ought" (or "aught") literally means "all" or "anything," so it should never be used to mean "zero." That's "naught." So pretty much everyone in this thread is wrong.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> TL; DR - it's complicated.
> 
> 1. Professional photography is crazy-expensive, and yet isn't guaranteed to produce fantastic images. I've spent a TON of money having pro photos done, and never been entirely thrilled with the results.
> 
> ...


I understand, fair enough. But I'm just saying that no render has actually sold me one of your watches, it's actually until I see the real life, in the flesh photographs when I think I really like one of your watches.

I mean, if a bunch of dorks taking pictures with their phones do a better job than a render I think a DSLR camera and a white screen will go a long way.

But as you say, you're sold out, so the point is moot anyway.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> TL; DR - it's complicated.
> 
> Everyone thinks they know what I should do, because that's how "everyone else" does it, or how it's always been done. Bullspit. "Everyone else" is dying a slow, agonizing death, yet I can't ramp up production fast enough. Clearly, what "everyone else" does isn't working, but what I'm doing is. I don't give a $hlt what people THINK works. I'm all about what I can PROVE actually does indeed work, because I measure the results.
> 
> Why would I do what they're doing?


So I guess you could say you are "disrupting the industry"? But thats what all those other guys said!
Just kidding Chris, keep up the good work. That Odin is tempting my WPAC plan for the year. Dam youuu!!!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I see all your can openers (including the electric, I've used them) and raise you this. I'm vegetarian and get most of my protein from beans, so a proper can opener is something I care way too much about. (That being said, don't even get me started on cookware and knives).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> I understand, fair enough. But I'm just saying that no render has actually sold me one of your watches, it's actually until I see the real life, in the flesh photographs when I think I really like one of your watches.
> 
> I mean,* if a bunch of dorks taking pictures with their phones do a better job than a render I think a DSLR camera and a white screen will go a long way.*
> 
> But as you say, you're sold out, so the point is moot anyway.


I thought so, too.

I was wrong.

A DSLR camera and a light box gets you expensive photos that don't sell the product any better (and arguably, they sell it worse) than the 3D images. Why on earth would I bother?

Again, we're not doing pre-orders here. I'm not asking anyone to plunk down $600 and wait 6 months for something that MIGHT look like what we illustrated. It ain't that kind of party anymore.

We're just using 3D illustrations in place of studio shots, because the 3D illustrations are better than the studio shots. They're obviously good enough that we're selling through most of our inventory shortly after we get watches out of production. before anyone's seen a real-world pic.

For those who love the looks of the 3D illustrations, they frequently like the looks of the watch even better in real life. For them, we under-promised, and over-delivered, and they were rewarded for their faith in my team.

For those who insist on seeing real-world pics, okay, we've been adding them to our site. Have you looked past the first image on the product pages? They're there, and where they're not, certainly a Google image search will turn some up.









Now, if it turns out a watch you like is already sold out, just based on the renders, well, next time have more faith in us if you want to get in on the first batch, or buy one used, or wait for the next batch.

The watches always look better in real life. That's just how it is, no matter what sort of images we use.

Rusty just upgraded the illustration package on his software. The new images are MUCH better, just in the last few weeks.

Old package, Barracuda:















New package:















There's no way in hell a DSLR camera and a light box are going to be able to reliably replicate the quality of those images in a repeatable, predictable way.

Is the reality better? Yes, absolutely. I'm okay with that. I'd rather have people say the watches are better in real life, and that our pics don't do them justice, than complain that the online images are deceptive.

We're trying to strike a balance here - flatter the product, but not so much that people complain we deceived them, give people an accurate representation, achieve a uniform look, with uniform image quality, across all products.

That's not something you can do with photos. It is what we're doing with 3D.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> We're trying to strike a balance here - flatter the product, but not so much that people complain we deceived them, give people an accurate representation, achieve a uniform look, with uniform image quality, across all products.
> That's not something you can do with photos. It is what we're doing with 3D.


Which is why 90+% of the images of watches you find on the website of "the big brands" are renders, too. Really, really good renders, but renders all the same.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Pato_Lucas said:


> I understand, fair enough. But I'm just saying that no render has actually sold me one of your watches, it's actually until I see the real life, in the flesh photographs when I think I really like one of your watches.


So you're saying.Doc's strategery of relying on fans posting to social media is a success?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Pato_Lucas said:


> I understand, fair enough. But I'm just saying that no render has actually sold me one of your watches, it's actually until I see the real life, in the flesh photographs when I think I really like one of your watches.
> 
> I mean, if a bunch of dorks taking pictures with their phones do a better job than a render I think a DSLR camera and a white screen will go a long way.


Renders sold me on a few NTH subs, but actual owner photos persuaded me, pushed me over the edge, on the Bahia and Nazario Sauro.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

BillHW said:


> But... But...
> 
> I saw it on the internet, it HAS to be true! ;-)


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

volthause said:


> Tell me again how I'm using a can opener wrong? I'll just leave this here...
> 
> View attachment 13843003


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

because...can openers, pre-orders, wot's, and renders


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Jtragic said:


>


That right there, all irony aside, is why hell is now freezing over. 

Here's a watch made by a friend 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

MarkND said:


> Still in the honeymoon phase with the Barracuda. Swapped to a Nick Mankey strap, super comfy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just ordered one of these in army green with cooper stitching and matte hardware.

Thanks for posting the deets: this looks to be an awesome alternative to my Erika's straps.

I'm looking forward to trying it out to see if I might want to grab one in black or maybe brown too.

I'll post some pics of it on my Subs once it arrives.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

ck2k01 said:


> I just ordered one of these in army green with cooper stitching and matte hardware.
> 
> Thanks for posting the deets: this looks to be an awesome alternative to my Erika's straps.
> 
> ...


That's the army green in the picture. I also have a maroon one, and a black one on its way. They are easily the most comfortable strap I've used.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

I have a "sail cloth" strap coming in today from B&R Bands. Looking forward to trying it out on this guy.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I got one of those Mankey Hook Straps to check it out vs. an EO MN. Actually like them both. The Mankey is stretchier, which allows for a set and forget kind of thing -- no unhooking to get it off your wrist. The EO feels a bit less elastic, more substantial... and you get a stylin' stripe down the middle. I'll probably end up with a couple more of both.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Just arrived from Page & Cooper, this is simply stunning:

























Really dunno how Doc does it..........

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Really dunno how Doc does it..........


I beat the $hlt out of Aaron and Rusty until they do it.

It's pretty simple, really.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My wife is enjoying hers...










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> I beat the $hlt out of Aaron and Rusty until they do it.
> 
> It's pretty simple, really.


I feel for you Doc, it's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it................ 

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> Umm, no. 15"-18" long OAL.


Wait, if that is used to de-ball an animal, with such a short handle, isn't the farmer (or chief technical operating engineer) at serious risk of being kicked to death by the suddenly-enraged animal?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> I feel for you Doc, it's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it................
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


Meh. It's a calling. Not everyone has the stomach for it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Wait, if that is used to de-ball an animal, with such a short handle, isn't the farmer (or chief technical operating engineer) at serious risk of being kicked to death by the suddenly-enraged animal?


That's why they approach from the front, and get up under the animal.

Here's a pic of Glen doing one, from his younger days...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> That's why they approach from the front, and get up under the animal.
> 
> Here's a pic of Glen doing one, from his younger days...
> 
> View attachment 13845987


Sure sure but his hands are nowhere near the deballing area. So I can only presume that the pictured Glen is trying to literally *kick* the balls off of that cow (which has laid down to prevent said kickage)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Sure sure but his hands are nowhere near the deballing area. So I can only presume that the pictured Glen is trying to literally *kick* the balls off of that cow (which has laid down to prevent said kickage)


He's just lulling the cow into a false sense of comfort first.

He's kosher.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Wait, if that is used to de-ball an animal, with such a short handle, isn't the farmer (or chief technical operating engineer) at serious risk of being kicked to death by the suddenly-enraged animal?


With steers, we use rubber bands. Tie 'em up tight and eventually they fall off. (Don't try this at home...)


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> My wife is enjoying hers...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let's be honest, the dial color on that one was picked to match the wife's gloves.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Sure sure but his hands are nowhere near the deballing area. So I can only presume that the pictured Glen is trying to literally *kick* the balls off of that cow (which has laid down to prevent said kickage)


Cows don't have balls. They are female. Bulls have balls, as they are male. At least until the balls are removed, after which they are steers. Neutered. That can be accomplished with the afore-pictured clamps or the rubber bands noted by mconlonx. He can post a pic of that device if he wants. I'm done with the subject, except to say that my Dad always used a clamp. He thought that the rubber bands had a greater chance of failure. ????


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

basso4735 said:


> Let's be honest, the dial color on that one was picked to match the wife's gloves.


My wife is very girly-girl. She loves pink. She bought our boxer a pink ballerina dress.

The dog doesn't like it.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

This will do!


----------



## VaEagle (Nov 29, 2017)

I don’t own an NTH watch yet, but it’s probably just a matter of time … and choices. 

So many great looking dive watches: the Azores (esp. the mint), Nacken, Antilles (esp. the brown or white dials), the Devil Ray, Holland, Barracuda and the Dolphin (love the gray or bold magenta dial). It’s wonderful too that Doc is a frequent voice on the forums, often posting sage advice for us watch addicts and his fellow entrepreneurs.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

You could build a pretty formidable collection from just Janis Trading pieces, and I don't think that's something I'd say of any other micro I've encountered.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

This thread movies a mile a minute and I've tried to do my due diligence before asking this question, but, Chris, have you ever explained the inspiration for the Bahia? I'm inclined to believe that, like some of the other models, it's a mash-up of various watch design impulses (one that comes off *really* well, IMO), I was just curious if there was some clear vintage antecedent I wasn't aware of.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> This thread movies a mile a minute and I've tried to do my due diligence before asking this question, but, Chris, have you ever explained the inspiration for the Bahia? I'm inclined to believe that, like some of the other models, it's a mash-up of various watch design impulses (one that comes off *really* well, IMO), I was just curious if there was some clear vintage antecedent I wasn't aware of.


It's a mash-up of vintage Heuer and vintage Tudor.

Mix these together:

















Get this:


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Within 24 hours I've learned how to properly open a can AND de-ball farm animals. With all the valuable information generated by Doc earthly (and forum) presence it feels like the watches are basically free. Quite a bargain.


----------



## nvrp813 (Sep 12, 2015)

YES!! After 10 hours of reading (I started on page 900), I must say, I learned a lot. Some of these learnings include:
- ETA vs Miyota and why Miyota is preferred
- "Swiss Made" made in China
- Seiko business model
- Arrows on bracelets and the hysteria they cause when you have screws
- The proper way to use a can opener
- Rusty being a wizard with 3-D models
- A few de-balling techniques and instruments used

In the middle of this reading, I also bought my first NTH Sub. A Barracuda Date from WatchGauge (perhaps I got the last one as shortly after completing checkout the watch was marked 'sold out').

I really appreciate Chris' candor and engagement with his fan-base . Very few brand owners, in any market, interact this way with the buying public. Also being from the North East I find his delivery very 'at home' feeling and can appreciate his humor and sarcasm.

Thanks everyone for making this thread so enjoyable to read! It was a blast.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

I wonder if a can opener, is using it in the correct orientation, can open a case back. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> My wife is very girly-girl. She loves pink. She bought our boxer a pink ballerina dress.
> 
> The dog doesn't like it.


I'm guessing it's not the color.

Also:


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> Cows don't have balls. They are female. Bulls have balls, as they are male. At least until the balls are removed, after which they are steers. Neutered. That can be accomplished with the afore-pictured clamps or the rubber bands noted by mconlonx. He can post a pic of that device if he wants. I'm done with the subject, except to say that my Dad always used a clamp. He thought that the rubber bands had a greater chance of failure. ????


Thanks, that is quite a difference to the German terminology:

Stier (read: steer) is the young bull, not yet fertile

Bulle (Bull-ay) is the above described Bull.

While the castrated male cattle (english term: steer) is called Ochse (ox-ay).

I like this thread. Always learn something unexpected. I also learned that „to steer" is not only „to guide the ways of a vessel kn water" but another word for „to castrate". Formidable.

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Agent Sands said:


> You could build a pretty formidable collection from just Janis Trading pieces, and I don't think that's something I'd say of any other micro I've encountered.


Definitely not most, although I might argue on whether or not Chris Ward counts as a micro. If it does, you could have a jumping hour, moonphase, pilot, chrono, diver, etc all with C.W. on them.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > You could build a pretty formidable collection from just Janis Trading pieces, and I don't think that's something I'd say of any other micro I've encountered.
> ...


I don't think Ward counts as a micro anymore.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > This thread movies a mile a minute and I've tried to do my due diligence before asking this question, but, Chris, have you ever explained the inspiration for the Bahia? I'm inclined to believe that, like some of the other models, it's a mash-up of various watch design impulses (one that comes off *really* well, IMO), I was just curious if there was some clear vintage antecedent I wasn't aware of.
> ...


Thanks!

The Bahia is the best-looking watch there.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nvrp813 said:


> YES!! After 10 hours of reading (I started on page 900), I must say, I learned a lot. Some of these learnings include:
> - ETA vs Miyota and why Miyota is preferred
> - "Swiss Made" made in China
> - Seiko business model
> ...


You should come to our GTG. Maybe you can catch a ride with Rhory and Skip, and the three of you can drag Horoticus out of his spider-hole and bring him with...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Thanks!
> 
> The Bahia is the best-looking watch there.


If I turn up dead under mysterious circumstances I want Tudor and Heuer brought in for questioning, along with my wife.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

If you started reading at Page 1, you'd appreciate his involvement quite a bit less. And if you started reading way back in the old thread, holy cow, he'd star in your game of Fu¢k, Marry, Kill. Trust me on that.



nvrp813 said:


> YES!! After 10 hours of reading (I started on page 900), I must say, I learned a lot. Some of these learnings include:
> - ETA vs Miyota and why Miyota is preferred
> - "Swiss Made" made in China
> - Seiko business model
> ...


----------



## nvrp813 (Sep 12, 2015)

docvail said:


> You should come to our GTG. Maybe you can catch a ride with Rhory and Skip, and the three of you can drag Horoticus out of his spider-hole and bring him with...
> 
> View attachment 13847253


I absolutely would if my wife didn't have a c-section planned for April 12th (second kid, this one will be a boy to complete the set).

Appreciate the invite though.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> If you started reading at Page 1, you'd appreciate his involvement quite a bit less. And if you started reading way back in the old thread, holy cow, he'd star in your game of Fu¢k, Marry, Kill. Trust me on that.


----------



## nvrp813 (Sep 12, 2015)

hwa said:


> If you started reading at Page 1, you'd appreciate his involvement quite a bit less. And if you started reading way back in the old thread, holy cow, he'd star in your game of Fu¢k, Marry, Kill. Trust me on that.


Even starting at page 900 I could, with certainty, eliminate one of the three options.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nvrp813 said:


> I absolutely would if my wife didn't have a c-section planned for April 12th (second kid, this one will be a boy to complete the set).
> 
> Appreciate the invite though.


What's the big deal? Our GTG is the NEXT day.

Can't she and the kid get an Uber home?


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> My wife is enjoying hers...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What came first? The gloves or the watch? Good color match regardless.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

nvrp813 said:


> I absolutely would if my wife didn't have a c-section planned for April 12th (second kid, this one will be a boy to complete the set).
> 
> Appreciate the invite though.


...if you would have used the emasculator......


----------



## nvrp813 (Sep 12, 2015)

GlenRoiland said:


> ...if you would have used the emasculator......


I tell myself that with every trip to Buy Buy Baby...


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

docvail said:


> You should come to our GTG. Maybe you can catch a ride with Rhory and Skip, and the three of you can drag Horoticus out of his spider-hole and bring him with...


It's just my anti-polar vortex bunker. Very toasty. Might need some more beer nuts by April, though. :-!


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

While I await the the Mankey strap, the MN, while overpriced, still is nice. Doc's watch is alright too.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> ...if you would have used the emasculator......


Glen checking in for the win!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

VaEagle said:


> I don't own an NTH watch yet...


You have to leave now.



VaEagle said:


> ...It's wonderful too that Doc is a frequent voice on the forums, often posting sage advice for us watch addicts and his fellow entrepreneurs.


The more my business grows, the less sage my fellow entrepreneurs seem to feel my advice is.

Go figure.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nvrp813 said:


> YES!! After 10 hours of reading (I started on page 900), I must say, I learned a lot. Some of these learnings include:
> - ETA vs Miyota and why Miyota is preferred
> - "Swiss Made" made in China
> - Seiko business model
> ...


It was his last one. @smatrixt got his second to last one.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13847253


It doesn't mention the scheduling for the conference/panel discussion on de-balling trends in the swiss watch industry though. When's that scheduled?


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Maybe it's cool to argue about something, and be okay with the other guy afterwards. Maybe there's hope that we're not doomed to destroy ourselves over petty, stupid $hlt.


Ha! Did you grow up in Delco? I did. And it prepared me for an adult life where I didn't get offended about every little slight or criticism from co-workers or whatever. Ruthlessly busting on each other was a way of life when I was in school. Nothing was off limits. Occasionally a mom joke or a comment about someone's sister would go too far and someone would be mad for a day, but we always forgave. It's funny how when I got to college, some of my new friends from Chester county (who proposed themselves as pretty tough guys) thought I went a little too far with my jokes. Snowflakes before people started calling kids snowflakes.

The GTG is on my calendar. But as it's my busiest season (realtor), I will inevitably have buyers that will want to look at houses that afternoon.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Fug. Speaking of balls, it's cold as balls out.

At least I have the right watch for it.





































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Ha! Did you grow up in Delco? I did. And it prepared me for an adult life where I didn't get offended about every little slight or criticism from co-workers or whatever. Ruthlessly busting on each other was a way of life when I was in school. Nothing was off limits. Occasionally a mom joke or a comment about someone's sister would go too far and someone would be mad for a day, but we always forgave. It's funny how when I got to college, some of my new friends from Chester county (who proposed themselves as pretty tough guys) thought I went a little too far with my jokes. Snowflakes before people started calling kids snowflakes.
> 
> The GTG is on my calendar. But as it's my busiest season (realtor), I will inevitably have buyers that will want to look at houses that afternoon.


I did grow up in Delco.

Still live here.

This tells you all you need to know about being from Delco - http://www.cc.com/episodes/mzkr3m/delco-proper-the-funeral---uncensored-season-1-ep-101.

Same guys - https://www.youtube.com/user/BirdText/videos

Delco 4 life!


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Cold AF in NJ now. Not as bad as the Midwest but still sucks.


----------



## nvrp813 (Sep 12, 2015)

docvail said:


> It was his last one. @smatrixt got his second to last one.


Well would you look at that! Usually I'm the statue but feels nice to be the pigeon this time.


----------



## nvrp813 (Sep 12, 2015)

This was a double post but now it's a picture of tomatoes


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nvrp813 said:


> This was a double post but now it's a picture of tomatoes
> 
> View attachment 13848905


So is this.

Courtesy of a sick bastard to whom I'm connected on Facebook...










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

docvail said:


> This tells you all you need to know about being from Delco - Delco Proper - Season 1, Ep. 1 - The Funeral - Uncensored - Full Episode | Comedy Central.
> 
> Same guys - https://www.youtube.com/user/BirdText/videos


I just wet my pants. In my bunker. With tomatoes...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Horoticus said:


> I just wet my pants. In my bunker. With tomatoes...


You should watch the videos on their "Bird Text" YT channel. The "Real Househusbands of Philly" and the Hall & Oates stuff are pretty hysterical.

Those guys managed to capture all the worst stereotypical characteristics of everyone from this area. We all know guys who are EXACTLY like what they portray in their videos. Half the guys I started my sales career with were those prototypical catholic-school basketball meatheads.

I still cringe whenever anyone tells me they went to "La-SAHHLLL".

Really? You went to LaSalle? I couldn't tell when I heard you talking, loudly, from way down the hall, bragging about how "banged up" you got on Red Bull and Vodka at the club last night.

Let me guess - despite being your most charming self, you didn't go home with a girl, the least-drunk of your friends drove your crew to the Llanerch Diner, before you got to bed at 3am. You barely had time to shower this morning, got to the office 20 minutes late, and pretended you got stuck in traffic on the Conshohocken curve.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> You should watch the videos on their "Bird Text" YT channel. The "Real Househusbands of Philly" and the Hall & Oates stuff are pretty hysterical.
> 
> Those guys managed to capture all the worst stereotypical characteristics of everyone from this area. We all know guys who are EXACTLY like what they portray in their videos. Half the guys I started my sales career with were those prototypical catholic-school basketball meatheads.
> 
> ...


Since you mention LaSalle, I miss meeting Beaver College grads.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Mmmmmmmm,Beaver


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ratfacedgit said:


> Mmmmmmmm,Beaver


Local references for the win.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Since you mention LaSalle, I miss meeting Beaver College grads.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's just not the same since they renamed it Arcadia University, is it?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Apologies to any LaSalle alumni who read that and take offense. 

No doubt you don't all sound that way. I've just met a lot of you who sound EXACTLY that way.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Apologies to any LaSalle alumni who read that and take offense.
> 
> No doubt you don't all sound that way. I've just met a lot of you who sound EXACTLY that way.


They'll be fine.

I went to grad school @ Drexel. People are like "oh that $hitty school near Penn?"

And before Penn people get on their high horses, you remind them that most people think Penn = Penn State.

And everyone's just happy not to have had to spend 4 years in the "Templetown" euphemism.

And Temple laughs @ Philly U and Rutgers Camden . . .

I could go on. You get the idea. In Philly you break balls.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> They'll be fine.
> 
> I went to grad school @ Drexel. People are like "oh that $hitty school near Penn?"
> 
> ...


I graduated (eventually) from Penn State (and took one masters-level executive ed course in accounting at UPenn), but Drexel is sort of my "family school" - my grandfather, an uncle, and at least 3 of my cousins all went there. Anyone who says it's a $hltty school needs a checkup from the neck-up.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I graduated (eventually) from Penn State (and took one masters-level executive ed course in accounting at UPenn), but Drexel is sort of my "family school" - my grandfather, an uncle, and at least 3 of my cousins all went there. Anyone who says it's a $hltty school needs a checkup from the neck-up.


The degrees I got there have undoubtedly served me very well professionally. More importantly, their food trucks put everyone else's to shame.

But cool to hear re: your family connection. Consider it another reason why I strongly like/support your brand.

And before we get bashed for chatting/flirting too much, here:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> The degrees I got there have undoubtedly served me very well professionally. More importantly, their food trucks put everyone else's to shame.
> 
> And before we get bashed for chatting/flirting too much, here:
> 
> ...


Speaking of food trucks near Drexel...

TRUE STORY -

My step-father recently had surgery down at UPenn, literally around the corner from Drexel, near 38th and Market. I was keeping my mom company there, the whole day.

Mom: "Where do you want to go for lunch?"

Me: "Whatever. I'm easy. I know there are some places down the street (38th), right off campus. I remember there's a sandwich place that's good."

My step-father, Rich, still waiting to be called: "Oh, 'Lizabeth (in 35 years together, I've never heard him pronounce the "E" in front of her name), you should take him to that place we found last time we were here. That was really good."

Mom: "Ooooh, yeah. We loved that place. Chris, we discovered this great little place around the corner, inside one of these other buildings. It's like a little corner bakery, but they make the best sandwiches. Rich, how did we get there?"

Rich: "Ah! I can't remember. It was in one of these buildings [vague, sweeping gesture with his hand, towards the city outside the window]."

Me: "Sounds great. What's it called? I'll look it up and get the address."

---blank stares---

Me: "Awesome. You don't know which building it's in, or what it's called."

Mom: "It's nearby. We'll just walk around 'till we find it."

Me: "It's freezing rain and miserable outside."

Mom: "Shaddup. It isn't far."

Me: "Awesome."

So we ask around as we're walking out. A guy says there's a "corner bakery" in the building across the street and half a block down. That's got to be the place, the one with the name my parents can't remember.

So we get there.

It's called "Corner Bakery".

It's part of a huge chain, like, probably 300 nationwide. I've seen at least six in Philly. My parents were acting like they found this out-of-the-way joint, a hidden gem known only to locals. I literally doubled over laughing as we came within sight of the door.

Me: "Seriously? This is the little 'corner bakery' you two world-travelers discovered, with the name you couldn't remember? It's called CORNER BAKERY, Ma. They're on every corner downtown."

Mom: "Oh, you're so fresh. We didn't know. We'd never seen one before."

Me: "Boy, I can't wait to see what surprises are on the menu. I hope they have mesquite BBQ potato chips. I bet they do."

Mom: "Shaddup and get inside or you're buying your own lunch."

I love my parents, but don't ask them to remember what any place is called, or how to get there. Just, don't.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Speaking of food trucks near Drexel...
> 
> TRUE STORY -
> 
> ...


Haha! I guess you never took them to the one that used to be in Suburban Square when they were out your way. You could have saved some money on dinner if you had known then that that was all it took to wow them.

For the uninitiated, it's about as local as Panera Bread is:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Haha! I guess you never took them to the one that used to be in Suburban Square when they were out your way. You could have saved some money on dinner if you had known then that that was all it took to wow them.
> 
> For the uninitiated, it's about as local as Panera Bread is:
> 
> ...


It gets better.

My mom grew up on Long Island. The first time I drove there by myself to visit her family, she gave me directions, but she couldn't remember the town in New Jersey where you get off the turnpike to go over the Goethals bridge onto Staten Island.

It's Elizabeth.

Elizabeth, New Jersey.

My mom's name is Elizabeth.

My childhood wasn't normal.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

It’s because New Yorkers pretend Jersey doesn’t exist. 

I’d take Jersey over the purgatory that is LI and whatever Staten Island is any day 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> It's because New Yorkers pretend Jersey doesn't exist.
> 
> I'd take Jersey over the purgatory that is LI and whatever Staten Island is any day
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Born and raised on long island. Still live here. Where is the armpit?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



GlenRoiland said:


> Born and raised on long island. Still live here. Where is the armpit?


https://armpitnj.com/about/

I'd propose we meet in the city so I could apologize in person Glen, but it'd take you 3 hours to get there.

EDIT: adding a  lest my "just joshing"/sarcasm not come through over the interwebs.

EDIT #2: and since I'm being so chatty, some NTH pics:



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## nvrp813 (Sep 12, 2015)

docvail said:


> Apologies to any LaSalle alumni who read that and take offense.
> 
> No doubt you don't all sound that way. I've just met a lot of you who sound EXACTLY that way.


Ahhh.. The good ol' days at manor apartments, partying at belfield, chanting "NBA" every time Rasul Butler had the ball, the meatball guy on the corner of 20th and Olney, China America deliveries from Ping, underage drinking at the Four Horsemen

Don't worry Doc, no offense taken. We all sound that way.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> I did grow up in Delco.
> 
> Still live here.
> 
> ...


Thanks Doc.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Parents grew up in Philly and met at Temple. They moved to York before I was born, but I know that accent all to well.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Can opener operating procedures, bovine castration devices, X-rate tomato pictures, and the social ramifications of growing up and living in the Philadelphia suburbs. I ask you, were else can one find such a variety of stimulating discourse on the internet?

And now, Chris getting his come-up-pance from his mom. Priceless.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> Parents grew up in Philly and met at Temple. They moved to York before I was born, but I know that accent all to well.
> 
> [/video=youtube_share;dOb6p1m5lQg]https://youtu.be/dOb6p1m5lQg[/video]


The Kroll Show's parody of Philly, Pittsburg, and Bal-Dee-More stereotypes is classic. Haven't seen it in a while. Thanks for the reminder!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

ck2k01 said:


> The Kroll Show's parody of Philly, Pittsburg, and Bal-Dee-More stereotypes is classic. Haven't seen it in a while. Thanks for the reminder!


Yeah the Pawnsylvania bits were great. Those were my favorites on the show I think aside from the "Spotted Ox Hostel" ones with European person.

This isn't embedding for some reason:


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

nvrp813 said:


> chanting "NBA" every time Rasul Butler had the ball


too soon!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

So, so good.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I liked the Bahia so much that I tracked down and got one of the last Skipjacks.


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


>


Where'd you get the strap?

Here's my blarracuda/giltrracuda on a CloverStrap...


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

househalfman said:


> Where'd you get the strap?
> 
> Here's my blarracuda/giltrracuda on a CloverStrap...


This is just one of the ~$10 ones from CheapestNatoStraps. I bought five or six a while back just to check them out. I love the quick release spring bars for fast strap changes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

I set the Bahia on the kitchen sill so I could do a quick oil change in the car. Had to snap a lumeshot in the hallway to capture the result.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Leekster (Aug 7, 2015)

Canadian, eh.









Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Leekster said:


> Canadian, eh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And continue to ignore Michigan. We're used to it.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Is anyone sick of the ads in the latest version of Tapatalk? I think I hit them 75% of the time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Is anyone sick of the ads in the latest version of Tapatalk? I think I hit them 75% of the time.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Buy the premium version. It's like $4.

No ads.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Is anyone sick of the ads in the latest version of Tapatalk? I think I hit them 75% of the time.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't use tapatalk, use a normal browser.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Is anyone sick of the ads in the latest version of Tapatalk? I think I hit them 75% of the time.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I switched to premium long ago, the moment ads started appearing inbetween the posts. Pay in money or pay in inconvenience.


----------



## nvrp813 (Sep 12, 2015)

Just to confirm what others have been saying, Chris, you did an amazing job with the Barracuda. It's my first NTH watch but I'm blown away.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> Buy the premium version. It's like $4.
> 
> No ads.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


I can't afford that....I have watches to buy!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, there was a mix-up with some inventory and one of my other retailers. The result is Watch Gauge has more of the Nacken Modern Blue and the Barracuda Vintage Black, if anyone was looking for either/both and couldn't locate one/either.

Just an FYI.


----------



## soufiane (Jul 23, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> I'm a sucker for black/red combos.


Very nice so am I

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## nvrp813 (Sep 12, 2015)

Just saw the Barracuda Date & No Date, as well as the Näcken Modern Blue Date & No Date, are in stock at WatchGuage for those who missed them previously.


----------



## nvrp813 (Sep 12, 2015)

docvail said:


> Guys, there was a mix-up with some inventory and one of my other retailers. The result is Watch Gauge has more of the Nacken Modern Blue and the Barracuda Vintage Black, if anyone was looking for either/both and couldn't locate one/either.
> 
> Just an FYI.


And I missed this post. Oops


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

As a very happy owner of a Nazario Sauro, cool recent blog post, Doc.










FYI, you'd cause me some internal strife if you made more of the original Nazario.

Or with all of this talk about black/gilt, I can envision a cool 4th Nazario variant...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> As a very happy owner of a Nazario Sauro, cool recent blog post, Doc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There won't be any more of the original Nazario. Against my advice, John at WatchGauge called it a "LIMITED" edition of 25, rather than the more non-committal "special" edition or "exclusive" edition.

Most people who ignore my advice figure it out eventually.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> There won't be any more of the original Nazario. Against my advice, John at WatchGauge called it a "LIMITED" edition of 25, rather than the more non-committal "special" edition or "exclusive" edition.
> 
> Most people who ignore my advice figure it out eventually.


I'm sure he'll budge eventually. Or if not, I feel solid about the gilt idea.

I should add that the forthcoming one looks cool. My collection is just blued out ATM, and they feel like keepers (CW Trident Pro "smurf blue," Seaforth GMT Abyss Blue, NTH Vintage Näcken Blue).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I'm sure he'll budge eventually. Or if not, I feel solid about the gilt idea.
> 
> I should add that the forthcoming one looks cool. My collection is just blued out ATM, and they feel like keepers (CW Trident Pro "smurf blue," Seaforth GMT Abyss Blue, NTH Vintage Näcken Blue).


Oh, he got it, as soon as the last of the original Nazarios sold out, and people started emailing him to ask if we'd make more. I explained why we shouldn't limit ourselves to just 25 pieces, and leave the door open to producing more, based on apparent demand, but he either wasn't listening, or didn't get it.

Since then, he gets it.

I just saw one of the original Nazarios sold on ebay for $725 - $100 more than the new price - in used condition.

There's a Barracuda Vintage Black on Chrono24 for over $700, and some other guys on ebay asking more than full retail for other Subs, in used condition. Most seem to be going for somewhere between $600 and $650, with a handful selling at a premium to the new, in-stock price.

















Seems like things are headed in the right direction.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Oh, he got it, as soon as the last of the original Nazarios sold out, and people started emailing him to ask if we'd make more. I explained why we shouldn't limit ourselves to just 25 pieces, and leave the door open to producing more, based on apparent demand, but he either wasn't listening, or didn't get it.
> 
> Since then, he gets it.
> 
> ...


Word. Glad the resale prices are starting to reflect NTH's position among the upper echelon of micro brands in this price bracket. Congrats to you, your team, and your partners.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Word. Glad the resale prices are starting to reflect NTH's position among the upper echelon of micro brands in this price bracket. Congrats to you, your team, and your partners.


Cheers.

It took 6 years of hard work to become an overnight success...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Cheers.
> 
> It took 6 years of hard work to become an overnight success...











Bla bla

(I realize I'm inviting I Love Lucy memes, and that this thread may well take a weird turn for a short while.)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> View attachment 13861495
> 
> 
> Bla bla
> ...


The first thing that always comes to mind whenever anyone mentions Lucille Ball is the genius "Isle of Lucy" line from "Spinal Tap."






Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The first thing that always comes to mind whenever anyone mentions Lucille Ball is the genius "Isle of Lucy" line from "Spinal Tap."
> 
> [/url]https://youtu.be/tZrqC5LL_oo[/url]
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


IMO (and I know this isn't a very unique comment), one of the funniest movies of all time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

This thread took a weird turn a couple of years ago. Just for the record...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> IMO (and I know this isn't a very unique comment), one of the funniest movies of all time.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For certain.

I've heard a lot of the best lines weren't scripted, including that Isle of Lucy line. You get the sense those three guys were just so used to each other that they knew the gag before the other guy even finished it, so they were just riffing a lot of the time, and letting the camera roll.

So many classic gags in one movie. Every time I provide the dimensions of anything in inches, I think about the model of Stonehenge, "in danger of being trod upon by a dwarf."

"Look, this is what you drew for me!" [whips out unfolded napkin sketch of Stonehenge, 18" tall...]

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Fabrizio_Morini (May 20, 2017)

Doc, isn't serious watches one of your partners in Netherlands? 

Inviato dal mio SM-N9300 utilizzando Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Fabrizio_Morini said:


> Doc, isn't serious watches one of your partners in Netherlands?
> 
> Inviato dal mio SM-N9300 utilizzando Tapatalk


Yes. They're our EU reseller.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Actually, I sympathize with the guys seeing the Stonehenge model for the first time, considering what I've gone through trying to get a product made...


----------



## Fabrizio_Morini (May 20, 2017)

docvail said:


> Yes. They're our EU reseller.


Thanks, I have asked for a friend of mine.
The Barracuda Vintage Gilt Dial is really a bomb! 

Inviato dal mio SM-N9300 utilizzando Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Fabrizio_Morini said:


> Thanks, I have asked for a friend of mine.
> The Barracuda Vintage Gilt Dial is really a bomb!
> 
> Inviato dal mio SM-N9300 utilizzando Tapatalk


I can highly recommend them. Fast shipping, lovely packaging. I also had some issues at the beginning with my Näcken. CS replied in a matter of hours. Very professional.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Skipjack tonight









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Bahia on steel today.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Amphion Dark Gilt today.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> Bahia on steel today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're making that look really good

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

hwa said:


> You're making that look really good
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Easy to do. It IS really good. On steel and leather:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

On "sail cloth"


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

basso4735 said:


> On "sail cloth"
> [/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190205/be5345962562ea2eb56f57bca3b0c0c7.jpg[/IMG]


Nice. Looks good.

I don't see sail cloth straps as much as I used to. I guess I really only noticed them a lot when the 55 Fathoms mod was all the rage.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Snapped this one last night just before bed. I had it sitting under the lamp on my bedside table for just a few minutes.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skipwilliams (Apr 15, 2009)

Love that Barracuda










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## PKC (Jun 1, 2013)

I received my first NTH today. It is ridiculous how good is this watch. That dial is something to be seen in person as no picture can do justice to its beauty.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Y'all know I enjoy hearing how happy you are with the watches. 

Really, I do. I love reading those happy customer comments.

I'm not exactly asking you all to spread the word by making those comments in other threads or sub-forums, or asking you to submit a review to our website (or the retailers' websites), but I'm not asking you NOT to do that, either.

Just sayin'...word-of-mouth is the best advertising.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Great watch!


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

More Cuda...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

redzebra said:


> More Cuda...
> 
> View attachment 13867487


Great looking strap. Where is it from?


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

After a few months of constantly alternating between a Steinhart ovm and an Nth sub I'm starting to think the OVM is expendable. Really enjoying the comfort of the slim profile and flat as a pancake backside of the NTH. It's well behaved on every strap I try; I rarely have to adjust it. The ovm on anything except rubber spins around very easily.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

92gli said:


> After a few months of constantly alternating between a Steinhart ovm and an Nth sub I'm starting to think the OVM is expendable. Really enjoying the comfort of the slim profile and flat as a pancake backside of the NTH. It's well behaved on every strap I try; I rarely have to adjust it. The ovm on anything except rubber spins around very easily.


I also really like the NTH subs, and my OVM on leather wears very well


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For the record, I've nothing but admiration for Gunter Steinhart and the business he's built.

But do you guys follow "horological_dicktionary" on IG, and if so, did you see the latest post?









I read through the comments a few hours ago, while I was, uhm...otherwise occupied away from the office (and let's leave it at that). The cross-trolling haters versus fanboys fun fest was exactly what you'd expect, and I'm betting it's only continued.

As I read, I had to wonder, "whoever this guy is, how long before he gets NTH in his cross-hairs?"

I heard Archie Luxury recently bashed NTH in one of his videos, alongside Squale, which makes sense, and Daniel Wellington and MVMT, which really doesn't. If the negative comments hurt my business at all, I can't tell.

They say there's no such thing as bad press.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

That definition of Steinhart of wreaks of Larry David. Imagine a Seinfeld episode where George is about to receive an honorary degree in marine biology from a prestigious university, drinks too much coffee, can't find an open bathroom stall and craps his pants.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Reminds me of the 5517 owners who wear OVM as daily drivers.

And the reddit post a few years ago at the MLB game where a famous actor wearing a real 5517 had a great meetup with an OVM wearer and they talked watches in the bleachers. And the actress/wife liked the OVM better.

There is a lot to like about a 42mm MilSub.


----------



## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

There are dozens of homages to the Cartier Tank, some by major manufacturers like Seiko, Citizen, and Hamilton. We never see any ire of the anti-homage crowd in this direction. Homages of the MM300 and Tuna by Sharkey and Merkur. Same with Smael and the Casio G-Shock. Pitchforks and torches? Collective shrugs. I'm sure we can come up with many more examples.

But if anyone dare create a homage of a Rolex, then the gloves come off. Steinhart, Ginault, Silver, Invicta, and many, many others. The anti-homage crowd gets fire in their bellies and come out swinging with thousands of posts about how it's lazy, a ripoff, disingenuous, fraud, poseur, satanic (above, about Steinhart) and hundreds of other negative adjectives to describe the watch that is somehow defiling the honor of the mighty Rolex.

I find it all curious and ultimately exhausting. Why do watch enthusiasts find it so compelling to defend Rolex designs and very rarely others? Why so much anger for something they have no control over whatsoever?


----------



## BillHW (Oct 6, 2018)

Whole lot of folks need to get a life... 
You ever feel the need to dump on somebody else because of, whatever?
No. Me neither.

...stuff like that is why I don't do IG anymore, and never did do FB.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Yup, never did ig or fb. Too much bs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So....

I don't entirely disagree with the comments here, about all the homage hate. A lot of it seems overblown.

That said, my personal opinions about homages are nuanced. I think some are awesome, some are awful, and most fall somewhere in between. 

I follow horological_dicktionary because it's funny, generally, regardless of whether or not this particular post is funny, or hits too close to home. Not every SNL skit was iconic. Some sucked.

If HD had taken aim at NTH in this way, rather than Steinhart, I dunno, I think we have to be able to laugh at ourselves, but I would like to see a better joke being made. 

Steinhart makes homages, lots of them, and while I don't think the company should be condemned, or that the models are all just 1:1 shameless design ripoffs, I understand how someone could dismiss Steinhart based on the sheer number of homages, and their degree of similarity to the original source of inspiration, so I understand the hate, even if I don't agree with it.

They're not the sphincter of Satan. Steinhart seems to have built a very successful, enviable business making lots of customers happy, by delivering a good product at a fair price. Their homages may not be very "original", but they do have a number of very solid original designs. 

It's said that dying is easy, but comedy is hard. I believe it. If HD ever does decide to roast NTH, I hope he can come up with something better than what he did with Steinhart. If he does, I hope I can see the humor and laugh at it.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

yankeexpress said:


> I also really like the NTH subs, and my OVM on leather wears very well
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wut? Did I wander into the Steinhart thread by mistake??


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

This


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> For the record, I've nothing but admiration for Gunter Steinhart and the business he's built.
> 
> But do you guys follow "horological_dicktionary" on IG, and if so, did you see the latest post?
> 
> ...


I have 5 NTH's 4 Steinharts and 4 Omegas they all rock


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Lee_K said:


> There are dozens of homages to the Cartier Tank, some by major manufacturers like Seiko, Citizen, and Hamilton. We never see any ire of the anti-homage crowd in this direction. Homages of the MM300 and Tuna by Sharkey and Merkur. Same with Smael and the Casio G-Shock. Pitchforks and torches? Collective shrugs. I'm sure we can come up with many more examples.
> 
> But if anyone dare create a homage of a Rolex, then the gloves come off. Steinhart, Ginault, Silver, Invicta, and many, many others. The anti-homage crowd gets fire in their bellies and come out swinging with thousands of posts about how it's lazy, a ripoff, disingenuous, fraud, poseur, satanic (above, about Steinhart) and hundreds of other negative adjectives to describe the watch that is somehow defiling the honor of the mighty Rolex.
> 
> I find it all curious and ultimately exhausting. Why do watch enthusiasts find it so compelling to defend Rolex designs and very rarely others? Why so much anger for something they have no control over whatsoever?


Cause your devaluing their special a Rolex I am sure is a fine timepiece but allot of people have them for bad reasons 'look at me'


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

A non gilt Carolina with date might work.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Visually stunning.......

























Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> For the record, I've nothing but admiration for Gunter Steinhart and the business he's built.
> 
> But do you guys follow "horological_dicktionary" on IG, and if so, did you see the latest post?
> 
> ...


I can post to the Internet and make a YouTube video with my iPhone.

I don't know how to design or manufacture watches.

IMO you win.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 13869513


Okay, now _that's_ an awesome strap! Where'd you get it???


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

JakeJD said:


> Okay, now _that's_ an awesome strap! Where'd you get it???


I had some DMC thread at home and decided to experiment with it. 
I got a cheapo strap from ebay and removed the thread from it to replace it with this gilt thread to see how it looks.
I've looked for another thread that is has a little darker gilt color but haven't been able to find any yet.
In real life the gilt thread you see is a little too shiny for me so I've been experimenting with it to make it darker.
For starters I soaked it in vinegar but that hasn't had an effect on it. I'll try some other home remedies when I get a chance... any chemists on this thread?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redzebra said:


> I had some DMC thread at home and decided to experiment with it.
> I got a cheapo strap from ebay and removed the thread from it to replace it with this gilt thread to see how it looks.
> I've looked for another thread that is has a little darker gilt color but haven't been able to find any yet.
> In real life the gilt thread you see is a little too shiny for me so I've been experimenting with it to make it darker.
> For starters I soaked it vinegar but that hasn't had an effect on it. I'll try some other home remedies when I get a chance... any chemists on this thread?


Cue @jelliottz.

"Have you tried coffee grounds?"


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

docvail said:


> Cue @jelliottz.
> 
> "Have you tried coffee grounds?"


I will, and I'll try baking it too.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 13869513


Great shot, mate!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

redzebra said:


> I had some DMC thread at home and decided to experiment with it.
> I got a cheapo strap from ebay and removed the thread from it to replace it with this gilt thread to see how it looks.
> I've looked for another thread that is has a little darker gilt color but haven't been able to find any yet.
> In real life the gilt thread you see is a little too shiny for me so I've been experimenting with it to make it darker.
> For starters I soaked it in vinegar but that hasn't had an effect on it. I'll try some other home remedies when I get a chance... any chemists on this thread?


Try soaking it in tea - black tea for a darker dye, green or white for a more subtle change.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I think I can probably explain at least some of the hate that Rolex and specifically Sub homages tend to get. If you ask a typical "normie" what the most expensive watch they can think of is, I would guess that probably 99% of the time, then answer will be Rolex. Anyone who says Patek at least knows something about watches, and anyone who says Richard Mille is a WIS.

Beyond that, even when it comes to Rolex, the Sub and to a somewhat lesser extent the GMT-Master have a special place as arguably the best known luxury watches on the planet. If you're making fake watches, it's pretty obvious what you should be ripping off, with maybe the AP Royal Oak/Offshore and Panerai Luminor Marina not too far behind. If a brand decides to make a near 1:1 DateJust homage, I don't think anyone will care, because the DateJust doesn't get noticed at a glance like a Sub or GMT-Master does.

This leads to arguments between people that will say "you're just buying that homage because you want to look like you're wearing a Sub without worrying about a cheap fake" and people that say "I like the look of this or that classic Sub/Tudor Sub, but I'm not about to drop tens of thousands of dollars on a 40+ year old watch." I say wear what you want to wear, but I will admit to rolling my eyes a bit when yet another company decides to launch yet another Submariner homage into a market that's already loaded with them, and already sliced from $100 Parnis homages at the bottom, to $2K MKIIs at the top.

It's hardly as if there aren't any other vintage diver designs that could be brought back. Zodiac has been proving this point for years now by digging through their old catalog of funky retro diver designs. Why not take even a _bit_ of a risk? Certina's old back catalog alone is rich with cool ideas. Side note: I think they blew it with their recent plus-sized reissue of the PH200. The old 40mm version was FAR more attractive.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

That weird badge-y Certina that's reminiscent of the Zodiac Sea Wolf is nifty.

The stigma surrounding Rolex Sub homages is definitely tied to its position as a recognizable status symbol. That said, I agree that Submariner homages are now overplayed (whenever I see a micro doing a more or less 1:1 Submariner mimicry, or something close to it, I tend to just move along). That said, I don't really like the current gen Rolex Submariner and its chunky case, so I'm actually kinda happy to see versions out there that preserve the design language of the earlier, more elegant Submariner case, even if I'm not going to go out of my way to pick one up.

I actually quite like Steinhart and feel like the folks who complain about the brand probably haven't handled one in person. While I don't own one myself, I've been impressed by how Steinhart pieces come off in person. When you get to handle them, many of their models don't feel as beholden to Rolex as you'd think they might.


----------



## OhDark30 (Oct 2, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Visually stunning.......
> View attachment 13868975


You said it, Alan - fabulous picture!
And Chris, if you were to do some more Dolphins, with an orange or petrol blue dial, I think I'd finally crack and buy a watch from you


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OhDark30 said:


> You said it, Alan - fabulous picture!
> And Chris, if you were to do some more Dolphins, with an orange or petrol blue dial, I think I'd finally crack and buy a watch from you


You know selling you a watch is on my bucket list...

I need to sell through the Dolphins we've made before I make other colors. At the moment, I can't rationalize making more, but things can change quickly, and I wouldn't mind expanding the range in that way.

Some of the ladies over in the ladies watch forum requested something in that orange/salmon neighborhood, but my wife's favorite color is pink, and I figured a silver/white would balance things out by being more neutral, so those were the two colors that got the nod for the first round.

All that said, yes, I like the idea of having a range of fun colors, so long as there's enough demand to rationalize their production.

Keep your fingers crossed, please.


----------



## huwp (Nov 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> All that said, yes, I like the idea of having a range of fun colors, so long as there's enough demand to rationalize their production.
> 
> Keep your fingers crossed, please.


Fingers crossed for a rich, deep green dial with that dolphin steel bezel. Oh and in a larger 44mm case. Since I know you love suggestions.


----------



## OhDark30 (Oct 2, 2012)

Excellent!
Well I won’t hold my breath then, but good to know it’s not automatically a no-no 

Personally I like simple sports team-like colours, on crisp design (so not so sold on salmon, more a blaze orange)
But oh, the depth of that Dolphin dial in Alan’s pic
Will keep hopin’


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

huwp said:


> Fingers crossed for a rich, deep green dial with that dolphin steel bezel. Oh and in a larger 44mm case. Since I know you love suggestions.


The bezel on our XL Sub is going to be 43.75mm.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> The bezel on our XL Sub is going to be 43.75mm.


Sycophant

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Agent Sands said:


> That weird badge-y Certina that's reminiscent of the Zodiac Sea Wolf is nifty.
> 
> The stigma surrounding Rolex Sub homages is definitely tied to its position as a recognizable status symbol. That said, I agree that Submariner homages are now overplayed (whenever I see a micro doing a more or less 1:1 Submariner mimicry, or something close to it, I tend to just move along). That said, I don't really like the current gen Rolex Submariner and its chunky case, so I'm actually kinda happy to see versions out there that preserve the design language of the earlier, more elegant Submariner case, even if I'm not going to go out of my way to pick one up.
> 
> I actually quite like Steinhart and feel like the folks who complain about the brand probably haven't handled one in person. While I don't own one myself, I've been impressed by how Steinhart pieces come off in person. When you get to handle them, many of their models don't feel as beholden to Rolex as you'd think they might.


Agreed, if somebody made an homage to whatever that model was called with old radium SL, I'd probably buy it. There were then and are now a few watches with the Sea Wolf style triangle markers like the Eterna KonTiki or of course Doc's own Azores, but I haven't seen anyone do anything like that Certina.

I'm not a fan of the Rolex super case either. It feels like they wanted to make the watch look chunkier and more modern, but without changing the actual 40mm size, and so the solution was to give it fat '80s shoulder pad style lugs. I'm not a fan. Ironically if you want a new watch that looks like a 5-digit sub with the classic proportions, but you want a modern style bracelet with a glidelock style clasp instead of the rattly old Rolex bracelet that you get with a 5-digit, you have to buy a Ginault.

I'm surprised they haven't done a GMT yet, I'm sure they could clean up with that.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_2930.jpg


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I've had a Nacken Modern Blue for a couple weeks. Really enjoying it. Reminds me of my SARB033 in a way. Picking it up and looking at it, I think, "yeah, OK, nice watch". It's not until I catch a random glance of it during the day that I think, "hot damn, that thing is gorgeous!" I think it is the light playing on all of the surfaces vs. examining it head on.

My favorite view of the Nacken by far is at an angle in soft light when the dial looks black. This photo is a poor representation but it shows the angle. A blue-bezeled Nacken Modern Black would be interesting.

There are two other Subs that are really calling out to me. If there were ever smaller Subs, I'd be way into that as well.


----------



## Buellrider (Mar 31, 2014)




----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Barracuda matches pretty well.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Buellrider (Mar 31, 2014)

Another...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Is this limited to these gilt relief Subs, or can an old-timer squeeze in?


----------



## Opensider (Oct 12, 2012)

I haven't seen too many photos of this one, so ....


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Is this limited to these gilt relief Subs, or can an old-timer squeeze in?


----------



## Ot1S (Apr 18, 2018)

Doc?? What will be the dimensions of the bigger sub??
Or will there be a medium and a large?
Case 41,75 (as stated in "what if" thread) with a bezel of 43,75?? as said above?
Is this both correct?? I would really like to know before Creation watches has a restock of the current subs.
Thanks.......


----------



## Buellrider (Mar 31, 2014)

Gone but not forgotten.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ot1S said:


> Doc?? What will be the dimensions of the bigger sub??
> Or will there be a medium and a large?
> Case 41,75 (as stated in "what if" thread) with a bezel of 43,75?? as said above?
> Is this both correct?? I would really like to know before Creation watches has a restock of the current subs.
> Thanks.......


Creation watches stocks the Subs?

How long was I asleep???

The bigger Sub is still in development. We'll reveal all in time. We haven't sent the case design to the case factory engineers for proofing yet, so its design and dimensions are subject to change, but as conceived the case cylinder is 41.75mm in diameter, but the bezel is 43.75mm. I think lug length will be ~51mm, with downward curved lugs.

Trust me, it'll all make sense when we do the full reveal.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Doc's partnering with CreationWatches now? Whaaaaaaaaaaa?!


----------



## Ot1S (Apr 18, 2018)

Sorry, My BAD, I ment Serious watches of course, Somehow i get these names mixed up all the time : (
Can't wait to see it Doc.
I'm sure it would make sense when it's behold.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'm not a fan of the Rolex super case either. It feels like they wanted to make the watch look chunkier and more modern, but without changing the actual 40mm size, and so the solution was to give it fat '80s shoulder pad style lugs.


Well put.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> The bigger Sub is still in development. We'll reveal all in time. We haven't sent the case design to the case factory engineers for proofing yet, so its design and dimensions are subject to change, but as conceived the case cylinder is 41.75mm in diameter, but the bezel is 43.75mm. I think lug length will be ~51mm, with downward curved lugs.
> 
> Trust me, it'll all make sense when we do the full reveal.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Creation watches stocks the Subs?
> 
> How long was I asleep???
> 
> ...


Way too long for these tiny wrists unfortunately, but I'll definitely be curious to see how they turn out at least. Curse of the Popsicle stick wrists strikes again.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Hey Doc, will the next round of black Nacken moderns have the 1-15 markers on the bezel like the Renegade etc?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RotorRonin said:


> Hey Doc, will the next round of black Nacken moderns have the 1-15 markers on the bezel like the Renegade etc?


No.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

NTH Watches. You can have it any way you like it, so long as you like it the way it comes!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> NTH Watches. You can have it any way you like it, so long as you like it the way it comes!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're wasting your natural talent for promotion toiling away as an attorney.


----------



## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

docvail said:


> The bigger Sub is still in development. We'll reveal all in time. We haven't sent the case design to the case factory engineers for proofing yet, so its design and dimensions are subject to change, but as conceived the case cylinder is 41.75mm in diameter, but the bezel is 43.75mm. I think lug length will be ~51mm, with downward curved lugs.


This is music to my ears, he says while typing this post wearing a 45.5 mm 2500 series Planet Ocean. I can't wait!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lee_K said:


> This is music to my ears, he says while typing this post wearing a 45.5 mm 2500 series Planet Ocean. I can't wait!


45.5?

You're the dude on the left, correct?

View attachment 13882611


----------



## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

docvail said:


> 45.5?
> 
> You're the dude on the left, correct?


Go big or go home!


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Wasn't 45.5 determined to be the "sweet spot" by Baron von-Somethingorother before? 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Wasn't 45.5 determined to be the "sweet spot" by Baron von-Somethingorother before?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Are you talking about that guy, in that thread, the one who appeared in spandex?

I never figured out if that was a goof, or he was serious. It was pretty epic if he was just trolling.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Disneydave said:


> Wasn't 45.5 determined to be the "sweet spot" by Baron von-Somethingorother before?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Yes. Based on the circumference of his thigh.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Are you talking about that guy, in that thread, the one who appeared in spandex?
> 
> I never figured out if that was a goof, or he was serious. It was pretty epic if he was just trolling.


That's the one. I feel like he was serious. At least he seemed it.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> That's the one. I feel like he was serious. At least he seemed it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


That's why it was epic if he was just trolling. That was Ninja-level.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Depending on your view, I've either been blessed or cursed to have what seem to be precisely average dimensions for an adult American male - height of 5'9.5", shoe size 10, wrist size ~7", waist hopefully getting back to 34", then less.

It's a curse when I try to buy jeans, and my size are the first ones sold out, but it's a blessing in that I feel like I can pull off any watch from 39mm to 43mm.

Maybe I'm just giving people too much credit, but I'd think it's obvious that we're not all the same size, and that some guys need smaller watches, some need bigger.

That's why I think that guy might have been trolling. Like, what sort of loon thinks that just because he's 6'2" and 220 (or whatever he was), that he's got the franchise on knowing what size is "perfect" for a watch, and all the guys bemoaning the big watch trend are wrong, or bltching over nothing, and just need to get over it.

Just because my personal dimensions are "average" doesn't make me oblivious to the fact not everyone is built like me. It's hard to believe that someone that much larger than average doesn't realize it.

...

As for the L/XL Sub design - we started out with a set of dimensions we wanted to match, in order to keep the visual proportions "correct". We weren't overly rigid about it. I think we actually shaved a mm or two off the lug length. Even though 51mm sounds long to some, we're curving them downward, to make the watch fit better on wrists of all sizes, which is our habit anyway.

Also depending on your view, the L/XL Sub will be either less of an homage, just as much of one, or maybe even more of one. We were looking at the 1967 "Double Red" Sea Dweller (ref 1665), which had a 40mm bezel, 20mm lugs, I think a 47mm lug length, and ~17mm case thickness. Yes, it was a chunky monkey.

We wanted to emulate some of that case's lines, but blew it up to have 22mm lugs, which gives us a 43mm bezel, and a 51mm lug length. Those are the numbers to keep the visual proportions. Likewise, the DRSD's bezel was wider than the case itself, which is why we've got two different diameters, of 43.75mm and 41.75mm.

We're going for a higher WR number than the 40mm Subs. I think we'll be able to keep total thickness down to 13mm, but with a design that will both appear and wear thinner than that. So while the proportions from the front will be very similar to the DRSD, it will be dramatically different from the sides.

In addition to the slimmed down case profile, we added some other design touches, mostly inspired by vintage models, but unique to our design.

For the dials, hands and bezels, I think we'll be trying to thread the needle with looks that are familiar like an homage but without being a very close homage of anything in particular.

Our aim was to come up with something that is a more sleek, vintage-themed alternative to the more chunky, clunky, slab-sided looks of the modern Seadweller range and Pelagos.

I kind of got sucked into the history of Rolex in the 60's, from the collaboration with Comex (retro-fitting an HEV to the ref. 5513) in '63 to the MOD switch from Rolex to Omega in '67. That was a very important year in the history of dive watches, as it gave us both the Seadweller, and the Seamaster 300.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...wrist size ~7" ...I feel like I can pull off any watch from 39mm to 43mm.
> 
> Maybe I'm just giving people too much credit, but I'd think it's obvious that we're not all the same size, and that some guys need smaller watches, some need bigger.


5'7", 8.5 shoe, 7" wrist, 33" waist.

It might be that I can pull off a larger watch, but 40mm is my self imposed upper limit and I'm a lot more comfortable in the 36-39mm range. This might come from years alternating between a 37mm Seiko 5 SNK809 and grampa's vintage Longines at 32mm.

Tried a couple 42mm watches and even though they wore OK (Squale 1545, San Martin Pilot 42mm), they just looked too big to me. NTH Antillies at 40mm, also felt it was a tad large, and I just ditched a Sinn 856 UTC (40mm) in favor of a Sinn 556 A (38.8mm). I do have a 40mm diver, Zelos Mako, but short lug to lug of 46mm seems to work best.

At some point, I'll need to try an NTH sub, and will undoubtedly kick myself for not getting one sooner, just for the fit...


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Depending on your view, I've either been blessed or cursed to have what seem to be precisely average dimensions for an adult American male - height of 5'9.5", shoe size 10, wrist size ~7", waist hopefully getting back to 34", then less.


I would say that I am the opposite of average! I am 6.5", 240, shoe size 12 and a wrist size 7.75". That being said I wear watches from 35 to 45mm with my sweet spot being 40mm. I actually have a converted pocket watch which is 48mm with a 55mm l2l that is still comfortable to wear!

There is no one perfect size for all people, that is why we all wear what works best for them. I actually find that thickness and curve of the lugs is what defines my preferences.

That is why I love the L&H and NTH watches. I have three in my top 5 most worn and 5 in my top 10. This one takes second behind my blue Amphion.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> 5'7", 8.5 shoe, 7" wrist, 33" waist.
> 
> It might be that I can pull off a larger watch, but 40mm is my self imposed upper limit and I'm a lot more comfortable in the 36-39mm range. This might come from years alternating between a 37mm Seiko 5 SNK809 and grampa's vintage Longines at 32mm.
> 
> ...


The Antilles and Azores wear larger than 40mm because they're all-dial. The Subs wear smaller than the Tropics.

I don't foresee making a diver smaller than 40mm, as I just don't see the point, but clearly there's demand for larger sizes, so I can rationalize the investment in developing a scaled-up Sub.


----------



## hairy (Dec 16, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The Antilles and Azores wear larger than 40mm because they're all-dial. The Subs wear smaller than the Tropics.
> 
> I don't foresee making a diver smaller than 40mm, as I just don't see the point, but clearly there's demand for larger sizes, so I can rationalize the investment in developing a scaled-up Sub.


Doc,
Do you think there is a business case for making a smaller 3 hander platform? Like 38mm with a thin case and decent WR (100m), that you could use for field dials, dress dials, bauhaus dials, bezel-less divers, etc? Same tooling for the case, just different finishing to match the styles.

There doesn't seem to be much interest from the micros for <40mm, but there are so many classic watches to draw inspiration from.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hairy said:


> Doc,
> Do you think there is a business case for making a smaller 3 hander platform? Like 38mm with a thin case and decent WR (100m), that you could use for field dials, dress dials, bauhaus dials, bezel-less divers, etc? Same tooling for the case, just different finishing to match the styles.
> 
> There doesn't seem to be much interest from the micros for <40mm, but there are so many classic watches to draw inspiration from.


We've been thinking about/working on a "basic 3-hander" since December 2015, the time when we had the NTH Subs ready for prototyping, but hadn't yet revealed them or launched the NTH brand.

There's been a lot of debate within my inner circle, about case size, style, etc. I've changed my view a few times, and obviously, other projects have cut in line.

The design team spent enough time working on it that anyone watching would have thought we'd be producing it in 2017, but then we stopped to work on the DevilRay, and have been cranking out 40mm Subs designs since, plus working on the L/XL Sub more recently. I was just about to go looking for handsets for it, but I'm procrastinating, because I dread that task.

Without wanting to commit to anything specific yet, my current thinking is a 39mm case, maybe even 40mm depending on the crystal diameter vs case diameter differential, 100m WR, thin, vintage styled, with a particular "theme" I want as our focus, which isn't really going to lend itself to field watches or Bauhaus designs. At least, I'm having a hard time imagining a military-style or Bauhaus dial working well with the rest of what I'm thinking.

I'm just not sure what the real demand is. Yes, I know I'm about to have a dozen people tell me that there's tremendous demand for a 38mm/39mm whatever, and you'll all buy it, but...

1. A dozen people isn't nearly enough to convince me. Multiply that number by 100, and we'll be hard at work on it tomorrow.

2. No, you won't all buy it, no matter what it is. I'm not falling for that again.

I have to produce at least 500 pieces of any case we make, and at least 50 per version. And it can't take 12 months to sell them all. That won't work. I need to sell at least 80% within 3-4 months, or it's not worth doing.

With just one exception, every manufacturer and retailer I talk to says the same thing, "watch geeks all say they want smaller sizes, but when we have smaller sizes available, they don't buy them, whereas the bigger sizes sell out."

I'm not joking. I talk to retailers, and my peers, who also talk to other retailers, and other peers. I know guys who've fallen for this trap, and get stuck with inventory they can't sell. It makes them wish watch-geeks who post to forums get cancer of the finger-tips.

And, I'm not just going to make a "poor man's Sinn 556", a "better SARB033", or "yet another 39mm field watch". I've learned we don't work well when we're making something we're not excited about making, and, sorry, but I don't find any of that stuff remotely exciting.

"Put the NTH spin on it" isn't enough to get me interested if I think an idea has been done to death, and/or if I just don't see enough demand.

"Why do so many micros focus on divers?" Why? Because they SELL. Divers sell. Bigger sizes sell. A smaller-case non-diver? Meh, I'm not rushing into it. If and when I do something, it'll be something that I think will stand out and be desirable despite being a smaller-case non-diver. That's not something you rush.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Without wanting to commit to anything specific yet, my current thinking is a 39mm case, maybe even 40mm depending on the crystal diameter vs case diameter differential, 100m WR, thin, vintage styled, with a particular "theme" I want as our focus, which isn't really going to lend itself to field watches or Bauhaus designs. At least, I'm having a hard time imagining a military-style or Bauhaus dial working well with the rest of what I'm thinking.
> 
> I'm just not sure what the real demand is. Yes, I know I'm about to have a dozen people tell me that there's tremendous demand for a 38mm/39mm whatever, and you'll all buy it, but...
> 
> ...


The "big watch" trend is here to stay. Yes, the excessively large watches of a few years back are probably not returning any time soon, but popular tastes have shifted toward watches that have significant wrist presence. Probably permanently.

That said, I'd be interested in a non-diver, 3-hander with 100m WR, particularly one with the kind of vintage-inspired experimentation the NTH line has represented. I've been relentlessly paring down my collection over the past few years--heck, I just sold off five watches in the past few months, and I'm probably going to sell more--and that's the one gap I find.

I don't think the options out there in the sub-$1000 range for the 100m WR non-diver watch are really all that exceptional, so it'd be easy to make something that differentiates itself from the competition. I love the SNZG a fellow WUS member sent my way recently and intend to joyfully put it through hell, but it wears big; I would love something that wears a bit smaller and has better build quality. (I've been looking at the Bernhardt Binnacle series, but the non-hacking movement and the lug design make me reticent to pick one up.)

Whether you'd actually be able to sell as many as you'd need to? Well, you'd know better than me.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The Antilles and Azores wear larger than 40mm because they're all-dial. The Subs wear smaller than the Tropics.


This is why I need to try a Sub at some point...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> 2. No, you won't all buy it, no matter what it is. I'm not falling for that again.


This. I'm the first to line up for a nebulous "38mm, 100wr" 3-hand watch, but once you start getting into the details, there's bound to be something that makes me shrug "meh" and give it a pass.

No date? Snowflake/mercedes hand. Sorry, lost me...


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

We're all picky. We don't buy watches based on broad strokes, but on the specifics of the design and how appealing we find its appearance overall. Chris knows this better than anyone, having endured years of "I'd buy one, but..." comments.


----------



## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

Chris once mentioned how he designs watches for a certain range of wrist sizes and can almost predict that someone outside that curve is going to complain. I loved the first generation Nacken Modern I got, but it wore too small for my 7-1/4" wrist and therefore didn't get much wear in favor of other larger divers like a Sumo, Turtle, and Tuna. I sold it, but not shaking my fist in anger at Doc but instead perfectly accepting of the fact that this one wasn't for me. And also understanding that future watches he designs may indeed be a little bit bigger and therefore include me in the the population of potential customers. Now, it looks like my patience is going to be rewarded and I'm very pleased about that.

I'm always amused at the almost guaranteed chorus of "it's too big!" responses that seem to predominate the conversation whenever any new watch in the 42 to 44 mm case size gets introduced. It's almost like they think that the designer has a personal vendetta against smaller-wristed people and they are affronted that their needs aren't met. Also a seemingly endless stream of, "I'd buy that in a second if it came in 38 mm!" when we know that is mostly bravado and rarely comes to fruition when it comes time to place an order. The world has many choices because we all have different sizes and body types. To get angry because a certain product doesn't exactly meet your unique requirements is silly, in my opinion. Also, to demand that a micro-brand company put out multiple sizes of every watch they make is devoid of any appreciation for the harsh realities of economic risk-taking and minimum order quantities from vendors.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Lee_K said:


> I'm always amused at the almost guaranteed chorus of "it's too big!" responses that seem to predominate the conversation whenever any new watch in the 42 to 44 mm case size gets introduced.


While most size talk is nonsense--fit has more to do with case design than anything, with L2L being the most revealing dimension--I think the animus against the large watches just stems from the fact that the "traditional" watch sizes haven't been well preserved in the marketplace right now.

There's just not a lot out there in what we might call the "classic" sweet spot of 38mm-40mm. If we just focus on the 100m WR three-handers in the <$1000 range, your options are *really* limited if you want something at 40mm and under, but you have significantly more options if you can wear 42mm or slightly larger.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I was going to say "don't mistake my skepticism for bitterness", and go on to say something else, which I swear was meaningful, but then I got sucked into an instant message exchange with Rusty, then Rusty and Aaron (discussing the new L/XL sub design), and now I can't remember what the hell it was I'd planned to say, other than skepticism/bitterness.

I'm not bitter about anything, other than my shortening memory and limited attention span. 

I really like a couple ideas I've had for a basic, no-bezel 3-hander. 

One watch I had that was almost perfect was the 39mm, all-dial Certain DS-1. Add a layer of AR to the crystal, lume to the hands, and a decent-sized lume patch to the hour indices, and I'd probably still have it. Even better if the dial was as inky-black as it appears in pics (it isn't that way in real life). 

So, "make the DS-1 Certina should have made" sounds good at first, but then I start to think, "But, is that ALL it's going to be? How are you going to design something with the same sort of feel without getting sucked into making something that's just a DS-1 with AR and lume?"

Answer - I don't know. 

In addition to that quandary, an all-dial design doesn't lend itself very well to the other styles people looking for a 38mm/39mm case seem to be looking for. All-dial cases don't usually go with pilot or field watches. For that, you kind of want a bit of steel around the dial.

So lately I've been leaning in a different direction, one that is vintage-themed, but not the same old, well-worn path so many others have gone down. It probably won't be all-dial, and it won't really lend itself to the basics of pilot/field/explorer styles, but beyond that, I don't want to disclose too much until we've got a design we like and are ready to go to production with it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also - please, for the love of all that's holy, do not take this as a great opportunity to start posting ideas for what we ought to do, your guesses about what we might do, etc, etc, etc.

There's no best-case scenario there. There are only three possible outcomes, and they're all worst-case:

1. I hate your idea, don't want to say that, but inevitably, I'll end up saying it, because you won't pick up on the subtle hints that I hate it. You'll hate me because I hated your idea, and was honest about it.

2. I love your idea. It may even be the exact idea I had. And I really wanted it to remain a secret until we were ready to do it, but now every competitor who reads this thread has the same idea, and I want to kill you with my mind. If it wasn't the same idea, but it's still good, guaranteed my competitors will be able to capitalize on it before I will, because we spend twice as much time doing design, on average.

3. No one likes your idea. You decide to hate me for it, because that makes bizarre sense, to hate me, because it's the docvail show, even if everyone else is throwing rotten vegetables. 

Whatever you want to see get made, please, do NOT post it here. Post it anywhere else. I'll find it. Send me a link using the contact page on my website if you really want to be certain, but know for certain that this is the last place on the internet I want anyone suggesting anything we should make.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Whatever you want to see get made, please, do NOT post it here. Post it anywhere else. I'll find it. Send me a link using the contact page on my website if you really want to be certain, but know for certain that this is the last place on the internet I want anyone suggesting anything we should make.


Yeah, yeah, I get it, but, y'know, what I'd really like you to make is...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Agent Sands said:


> The "big watch" trend is here to stay.


I don't know if it's here to stay or not. Just being a "trend" would seem to suggest the style has a finite shelf-life.

That said, as they say in the stock market, "the trend is your friend."

It means, don't go against the herd, even if you believe strongly that the herd is wrong, based on the fundamentals. If everyone is buying the stock of some dog$hlt company, don't short it, because you'll lose your shirt.

At the same time, there's value in being a bit of a contrarian. The trick is to be VERY calculated in your approach. Sometimes, rather than going in the opposite direction, it's better to head off at an angle.

I know I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. When someone says they're starting a microbrand, I tell them to pay attention to what their target customers - the guys on forums and in Facebook groups - say about what they like. More importantly, pay attention to what they seem to actually BUY.

Then I'll turn around and say you can't pay too much attention to what the guys on forums say, because so many of them are ultra-picky, OCD types with extremely narrow tastes, which run counter to what the rest of the market wants, and what you can actually sell. Don't let the forum guys get you chasing your own tail.

Which is correct? It's me saying both. They're both correct, obviously.

I mean it. They're not contradictory statements. It is important to pay attention to what the people in your base of support want, but you have to be able to filter that through your own observations, run some numbers, do some thought experiments, think about it, find the unexplored part of the well-explored area.

It's not easy, which is why I'm not rushing to make a 38mm/39mm anything, just because a bunch of watch geeks - many of whom are good friends - tell me I should. If I have to invest my time, energy and money somewhere, right now, I see a better return on that investment developing more 40mm Subs, and a new L/XL Sub, than spinning up the design team to work on the 3-hander, for the third time in as many years (literally, we've started/stopped twice already).

If I had a great idea for an obvious winner, I'd have made it by now.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Here's why I think the "big watch" thing is here to stay:

Watches aren't everyday tools anymore. They're now expressly fashion jewelry worn as a fashion accent. The idea of the "discreet" watch is now practically a thing of the past; when folks drop the money that a watch now requires, they're dropping money on a luxury good and they're naturally going to be drawn to something that's noticeable. Now, I'm not saying that's why WISes who like chunky divers purchase chunky divers, but I do think that's generally why the masses have been drawn, and remain drawn, to larger pieces.

Maybe I'm wrong and that trajectory will move toward smaller, more discreet watches, but I have a hard time imagining *why* things would head in that direction.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Here's why I think the "big watch" thing is here to stay:
> 
> Watches aren't everyday tools anymore. They're now expressly fashion jewelry worn as a fashion accent. The idea of the "discreet" watch is now practically a thing of the past; when folks drop the money that a watch now requires, they're dropping money on a luxury good and they're naturally going to be drawn to something that's noticeable. Now, I'm not saying that's why WISes who like chunky divers purchase chunky divers, but I do think that's generally why the masses have been drawn, and remain drawn, to larger pieces.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong and that trajectory will totally reverse, but I have a hard time imagining *why* it would reverse.


I understand and agree with the logic behind why bigger sizes sell well. I differ with some of what you said, though.

For most in the mass market, at either the "cheap crap" end or the "look at me, I'm rich, bee-otch!" end, yes, watches are fashion accessories.

But, and I may be wrong, but I don't think that's who's buying NTH's. I think the people buying NTH's are collectors/enthusiasts, and people who are transitioning away from either of the two extremes which make up the mass market. I think for them, these are not just fashion accessories. They are part of the everyday kit, what I think of as the "grown up male uniform" - shoes, long pants (not shorts, looking at you, year-round shorts guy), shirt with a collar, belt, watch.

For that reason, I understand why the big-watch trend is reviled by those within our circle. It's why I don't simply dismiss all talk about making a smaller size watch. I actually do see that there is SOME demand. My real struggle is figuring out if and when there's ENOUGH demand for me to rationalize the development and production of a new model.

Just as an easy example - my wife, my mom, my aunts, my sisters, my niece, every woman I ever spoke to in website tech support, and all my wife's friends have all harangued me, for years, to make a woman's watch. I resisted, for years, because I knew, for certain, down deep in my bones, that the market for women's watches is not even 10% the size of the men's market, and much like the mass market, most of the women's market is bifurcated between "cheap crap", and "look at me, I'm rich, bee-otch!"

What sort of loon would think it's a good idea to invest in the development and production of a woman's watch, if said woman's watch was from a microbrand, with the price range I need to stay in to remain profitable, when I have to make AT LEAST 500 pieces, and I can't afford to take 5 years to sell them all?

I never considered making a woman's watch until I started making smaller men's watches. I actually did consider developing a smaller case model, which might have been the 38mm/39mm whatever, and allocating a portion of that production to designs for the fairer sex.

The problem is that I wasn't really convinced I could sell enough of any of them to rationalize the plan. So, instead, we made 100 pieces of the Dolphins, 50 Ice, 50 Magenta, and if it takes a year to sell them all, I don't give a crap, because my wife, mom, and two of my aunts all got one, so they shut up about it, and all the other 40mm Subs are selling faster than we can make them, so I can afford for those 100 pieces to not sell as quickly.

See? THIS is how I rationalize what I'll work on, and what I won't. It's both art and science.

Making a unisex design wasn't just about the case size, or the size of the women's market. It was also about timing. The Dolphin worked okay, now. It might have worked better next year. It would not have worked as well three years ago, when we didn't have 7 retailers, and weren't doing the production volume we are now.

When will I make a smaller man's watch? As soon as I can clearly see all the pieces are in place, where they need to be, so that I don't feel like I'm taking a flyer on the stock of some dog$hlt company, without seeing the strength in their fundamentals.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> For most in the mass market, at either the "cheap crap" end or the "look at me, I'm rich, bee-otch!" end, yes, watches are fashion accessories.
> 
> But, and I may be wrong, but I don't think that's who's buying NTH's. I think the people buying. NTH's are collectors/enthusiasts, and people who are transitioning away from either of the two extremes which make up the mass market. I think for them, these are not just fashion accessories. They are part of the everyday kit, what I think of as the "grown up male uniform" - shoes, long pants (not shorts, looking at you, year-round shorts guy), shirt with a collar, belt, watch.


Yeah, I think you're right--as always, divergent tastes coexist within the same market--I was just speaking to the larger industry trend. A microbrand is, of course, able to depart from those trends, and in some ways needs to in order to differentiate itself.

Anyway, none of this is meant to pressure you one way or another (not that you'd let yourself be pressured).


----------



## hairy (Dec 16, 2011)

So a 36mm quartz skeleton is the next NTH project. Got it. All metal hands would look dope.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

I always get a chuckle when big watches are called a trend. That's the same thing they were saying on the watch forums 20 years ago, big watches are a trend and it will pass. I've had a Seiko 6309 diver since 1986, and they are like 44mm in diameter. Big watches have been around for a while and aren't going anywhere.

My watches range in size from 36mm to 44mm, depends what I feel like wearing. Lately it's been this one.









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I don't know if this is even relevant, but I find it enlightening that Christopher Ward makes their hallmark Trident Pro in 38 and 43mm.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

When Omega revamped the SMP, they phased out the 38mm and issued only a 42mm model. Not that you can tell much from the behavior of one (or even two) brands. It's my understanding that even F.P. Journe, who operates largely in the "dress watch" category, phased out 38mm models a few years ago in favor of 40mm and 42mm models because the 38mm models just weren't selling, and you'd think the F.P. Journe arena was the arena where 38mm would be the "right" choice.

So while we've seen major brands deliver smaller models here and there in the past few years--and I've no numbers to back this up, just casual observation--my guess is that when you catalog the watch releases from major brands over the last three years, my guess is that you'll still find substantially more above-40mm than sub-40mm releases.

Again, talking broad trends here... and, as Chris has pointed out, the broad trends don't necessarily determine the "right" direction for NTH.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I don't know if this is even relevant, but I find it enlightening that Christopher Ward makes their hallmark Trident Pro in 38 and 43mm.


It's relevant if you consider Chris Ward's production and sales volume currently dwarfs mine. Just because Chris Ward does it doesn't mean it's something I should do. It's possible for two companies to do the same thing, but with dramatically different results.

I get other microbrands asking me for advice, asking specific questions about specific things. It's hard sometimes for me to explain that even if I told them exactly what I do, or would do, it's not going to work for them.

If you haven't put in the time to build the foundation of support, your house is going to fall down. If you don't have the runway, your plane can't take off. You can't make spaghetti if you haven't got a pot to boil water. Me telling you the temperature at which water boils won't do you any good.

Do you know the breakdown of sales for each size? I don't. I'd find that more enlightening.

Whatever the numbers are, CW has obviously grown to the point that they can rationalize making a model in two sizes. My business hasn't grown to that point yet, just like it's not yet at the point where I can rationalize making a $800-$900 GMT, or a $1500 automatic chrono, or a 38mm field watch, or an under $300 entry-level watch.

I'm not going to make a wild-a$$ guess about the demand based on a few forum comments. I'm not going to just do whatever Chris Ward does, the way Burger King just puts in a restaurant down the street from a McDonald's, after McD's invested millions in doing site surveys and traffic analysis.

This is still a small business. I take calculated risks, and trust my instincts, but mostly, I think long and hard, all the time, about everything. I know what works for my business, and I've sunk enough shafts down enough dry wells to know better than to keep doing that.

*EDIT/PS* - as for the 38mm/43mm Trident, I've sometimes wondered if they wouldn't be better off just making it 42mm. 38mm is way too small for many, and 43mm is way too large.

Again, I'm fortunate to have a precisely average size wrist. My sweet spot is 40-42. I've stopped looking at watches when I saw they were outside that range. The 38mm watch I had was definitely too small, and I think most 43mm watches I've tried are too big.

As a strategic decision, does it make more sense to make two sizes at opposite extremes, or one size that hits dead-center? I think it makes more sense to hit dead-center.

It's about what's going to be within range for the most people.

If the average wrist size is 7", then over 2/3 of all people are going to have a wrist size within one standard deviation of that average, which means, most people's wrists are going to be close enough to 7" that their preferred size ranges are going to overlap. Less than 1/3 are going to be way out on the extremes, where they'd prefer something that the majority wouldn't.









You guys can complain all you want about how this or that watch is too big or too small, even when it's 40-42, but that's not going to change the math, or the economics here.

I can rationalize 40-42, all day long, and i can sell 40-42, all day long. Eventually, we may grow large enough that I can start caring about guys who want a 38 or a 44, but for now, I can't afford to care.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

MarkND said:


> My watches range in size from 36mm to 44mm, depends what I feel like wearing. Lately it's been this one.


Where'd you get that strap?


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

Agent Sands said:


> Where'd you get that strap?


It's a Crown and Buckle Chevron strap. A perfect match for the NTH BVB. It makes it that much harder to take this watch off.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> You're wasting your natural talent for promotion toiling away as an attorney.


Fact.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Depending on your view, I've either been blessed or cursed to have what seem to be precisely average dimensions for an adult American male - height of 5'9.5", shoe size 10, wrist size ~7", waist hopefully getting back to 34", then less.
> 
> It's a curse when I try to buy jeans, and my size are the first ones sold out, but it's a blessing in that I feel like I can pull off any watch from 39mm to 43mm.
> 
> ...


Can somebody please PM me a 375:1 translation? Thx.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hairy said:


> Doc,
> Do you think there is a business case for making a smaller 3 hander platform? Like 38mm with a thin case and decent WR (100m), that you could use for field dials, dress dials, bauhaus dials, bezel-less divers, etc? Same tooling for the case, just different finishing to match the styles.
> 
> There doesn't seem to be much interest from the micros for <40mm, but there are so many classic watches to draw inspiration from.


Yes. Get in line. See Rolex Explorer I.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> We've been thinking about/working on a "basic 3-hander" since December 2015, the time when we had the NTH Subs ready for prototyping, but hadn't yet revealed them or launched the NTH brand.
> 
> There's been a lot of debate within my inner circle, about case size, style, etc. I've changed my view a few times, and obviously, other projects have cut in line.
> 
> ...


Why say "yes," when yes will do? Let doc explain. Pour a drink. It's gonna be awhile.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> This. I'm the first to line up for a nebulous "38mm, 100wr" 3-hand watch, but once you start getting into the details, there's bound to be something that makes me shrug "meh" and give it a pass.
> 
> No date? Snowflake/mercedes hand. Sorry,


Nobody wants to see that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Here's a watch. Let doc explain... (doc: you get only 1,000 words to explain one picture. That's the rule.)










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

True story (hand to God, this happened)...the people involved shall remain unnamed, to protect both the innocent and the guilty, alike.

When I was in Hong Kong last year, I heard the owner of a business which is much more successful than mine was around. I suggested to some other brand owners I was with that we should go and meet him, but no one else wanted to go, so I went by myself.

I got to talk to this guy, this titan of the industry, for almost 20 minutes, uninterrupted. It was awesome.

Very recently before that trip, there had been a discussion on the forums, about all the microbrands which had gone out of business, and with speculation about why. That thread came up in discussion...

"Why do all the microbrands go out of business? I'll tell you why - because the owners put too much stock in what the guys on the forums say. They all bltch about big watches. They all say watches should be smaller, under 40mm. They have no idea what sells. 42mm and up, that's where it's at..."

I didn't argue with him. I wasn't going to point out my best selling model, by a country mile, is a 40mm diver. That wasn't what I was there for, and it's not the point. 

That guy has built an empire out of making larger watches. How can I argue with his results? I can't. 

So, when I say, I don't feel like rushing into making anything under 40mm, because I don't see enough demand to rationalize the investment in development and production, how can anyone here argue with me? No one knows as much about my business as I do, not even close. I live and breathe this, all day, every day, and have been, for the last 6+ years. Everyone else is just a spectator, guessing about what I'm doing and why.

Look at the scoreboard. I'm winning. Clearly, whatever I'm doing, it's working.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Here's a watch. Let doc explain... (doc: you get only 1,000 words to explain one picture. That's the rule.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Better than the Tudor BB58, less than 20% of the price, no waiting, and no maintenance costs, ever. When it dies, in 20-30 years, bin it.

How'd I do?


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

So my takeaway from all these Walls o' Text is that Doc is hard at work developing a 37mm three-hander with a Vantablack dial and Jubilee bracelet and an in-house, made-in-the US movement. It will retail for $299.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> So my takeaway from all these Walls o' Text is that Doc is hard at work developing a 37mm three-hander with a Vantablack dial and Jubilee bracelet and an in-house, made-in-the US movement. It will retail for $299.


I was looking at a very successful kickstarter project earlier today. Wildly successful. Huge numbers. Enormous. YUGE.

They're practically giving away the product. They're "making a profit", but they're not making money. Yes, there's a difference. They put a ton of work into the project, and they'll be putting even more in. They're not prepared, they're not going to be adequately compensated, and if they're not careful, it could be the end of their business.

I re-watched "Moneyball" recently. I freaking love that movie. All those so-called "experts", and more often than not, they were all wrong, just guessing, and usually guessing wrong.

My favorite scene is the one where Brad Pitt drags Jonah Hill out to the parking garage, and makes him talk...

"There is an epidemic failure within the game to understand what is really happening."

This industry is fundamentally broken. It's obvious to anyone who understands the most obvious and basic fundamentals of business. I didn't get this far doing what everyone else was doing, because what everyone else is doing hasn't been working. The Oakland A's weren't going to field a championship team trying to compete for high-priced talent against the Yankees.

Like the subtitle to the book (Moneyball) says, it's an unfair game. I can't win playing by the old rules. The industry needs a shake-up.

Most big brands are wrong in their approach. Most small brands are wrong in their approach. The math is the same for all of us, and it's inescapable. The ones who are winning are the ones who are doing things differently.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Better than the Tudor BB58, less than 20% of the price, no waiting, and no maintenance costs, ever. When it dies, in 20-30 years, bin it.
> 
> How'd I do?


you killed it. all of it. there's nothing left.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Sorry Doc, I didn't mean to provoke you with the Chr. Ward comment.

I have two Trident Pro's, both 43mm. When I got the first, and then the second, I thought they were a good sized watch for my wrist...heavy, but acceptable.

When I got my NTH Nacken, frankly, it knocked the Wards off my wrist. When I strap the Wards on now, they feel like Flavo-Flav's clock on my wrist. 

Now, I'm not bagging on the Trident Pro. It's a fantastic watch. What I find interesting is that there is no 40mm version. It's like C. Ward took the two outlyer sizes. And he's very successful at these two sizes, and not that sweet spot 40mm. I just wonder why? I wish I had a 38mm Trident Pro to try on next to my Nacken to see how the dimensions stack up.

I posted a long time ago that I was at lunch with my CO a year ago and I tried on his Rolex Sub while I was wearing my Nacken. It was an older version, but size-wise the two watches were very similar. Given that NTH Subs are becoming as hard to get as Rolex Subs, I'd say you're both on the sweet spot for watch sizing.

Hence my comment, I find it awfully interesting that Ward straddles this seemingly money-making sweet spot. One has to choose between a watch that is too big, or too small, and yet the company is very successful. I have no idea what the implications of this observation is.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

In the most positive way - Doc - your ideas and discourses remind me of Nassim Nicholas Taleb and his writings.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep six'in tonight









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> you killed it. all of it. there's nothing left.


Be fair.

I forgot resale value.

I think it's a push. The Subs seem to be holding their value, if not selling for a small premium on the secondary market.

I'm seriously considering buying a pre-owned Barracuda Vintage Black if I can find a no-date for sale.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Sorry Doc, I didn't mean to provoke you with the Chr. Ward comment.
> 
> I have two Trident Pro's, both 43mm. When I got the first, and then the second, I thought they were a good sized watch for my wrist...heavy, but acceptable.
> 
> ...


I didn't take your comment as provoking me. Didn't mean to sound as if I took it that way. I actually find it interesting, too.

You're not the first person to point it out to me, and that wasn't the first time I made my case that I think they're "wrong" for making the Trident in those two sizes, rather than just one size in the 40-42 range.

Then again, I don't know what their sales are, and no one knows if they'd sell more of just one size. Perhaps their strategy makes sense, if they're offering something that's harder to find at 38 or 43, but would have lots of competition at 40-42.

I think at some point, I said it would make more sense to me if they made it in 40 and 44. If I didn't say it before, I'm saying it now. I think that would make more sense. I'd think more guys would buy a 40 than a 38, and the guys who might prefer a 43 to a 44 probably aren't going to get that bent out of shape by an extra 1mm over their personal ideal.

Plus - perfect proportions to have even-number lug-widths. With 40/44, you get 20mm and 22mm lugs. With 38/43, you get 19 and 21.5? WTF?

My friend Andrew isn't the only one pissing in my ear to make a 38mm, or even smaller watch, and pointing to the Rolex Explorer as the only argument they need.

Imagine my business is a teeny, tiny version of Rolex, like a 1:100 scale version, 1% the size of Rolex.

How many watches do they produce in a year? I don't know. Within that number, how many are 40mm divers/GMT's, how many are 43-44mm SeaDwellers, how many are Daytonas, and how many are 40mm and under no-bezel non-divers, like the MilGauss, Air King, Datejust, and Explorer?

I'd bet all my money that the 40mm designs are the bulk of their sales, the 43-44mm SeaDwellers are next, and then everything else just rounds out their business in a marginal, incremental lift kind of way, like McDonald's selling the McRib. It's popular enough to make it available once a year, for a month, but not popular enough to offer year-round.

Now, even if they sell 10,000 watches per year under 40mm, if my business is only 1% the size of theirs, that means I'll sell 100.

But, I have to make 500, minimum, and I need 80% to sell within 3-4 months, or this just doesn't work, full stop. How am I going to sell 400 pieces in 3-4 months if I can only sell 100 per year?

You see my problem here, or you don't (all of you, generally, no one in particular, specifically). It's the same for every microbrand and why so many of us make divers, not <40mm no-bezel non-divers.

My business isn't yet large enough for me to take a flyer and make 500 pieces of something and not be very sure we can sell 400 of them in 3-4 months. If my production volume was 3-4 times what it is now, yeah, I'd be more inclined to work on a 38mm whatever, because it would make up a much smaller portion of our total annual production.

But, I can't afford to make 500 pieces of everything everyone thinks I should make, when it would be a big portion of what we produce this year. I won't sell enough $800-$900 GMT's, $1500 auto-chronos, or 38mm whatevers for the numbers to work out.

So, you'll get more 40mm Subs, a new L/XL Sub, and if things go my way, maybe something else, but only when I can rationalize making the investment in development and production, and not feel like I'm rolling the dice with the future of my business.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Be fair.
> 
> I forgot resale value.
> 
> ...


It's the only watch I brought me on my current 1-week trip. It's the only watch I brought with me on my last two 1-week trips. Do the math. Credit to jelli for noticing the dial's tropic vibe. The satin finish on the bezel is tops. I would fight you over the endlinks if I thought I could win, but last time we argued the point, I conceded that the Tudor doesn't have CNC'd links, either, so yeah, whatever, you win. Haven't yet had the opportunity to compare it 1:1 with the BB58, but I look forward to the opportunity. I don't think the BB58 will demonstrate an 8:1 value proposition.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> I didn't take your comment as provoking me. Didn't mean to sound as if I took it that way. I actually find it interesting, too.
> 
> You're not the first person to point it out to me, and that wasn't the first time I made my case that I think they're "wrong" for making the Trident in those two sizes, rather than just one size in the 40-42 range.
> 
> ...


I think you have the correct business model for today's market. The majority of your buyers aren't the ones yapping in your ear to make smaller watches, GMT's, etc. They are average Joe's like me who read the forums enough to know what watches are out there. Your 40mm Subs hit the sweet spot for most people. The watches I wear most are 40mm, though I do wear my bigger watches like my MM300 more often in the summer than I do in the winter (I live in Minnesota).

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> *EDIT/PS* - as for the 38mm/43mm Trident, I've sometimes wondered if they wouldn't be better off just making it 42mm. 38mm is way too small for many, and 43mm is way too large.


They kind of did. C.W. seems to be more focused on the C65 these days - they just introduced an automatic version with applied indices. Both that and the prior hand-winder are 41mm only. It's also worth mentioning that they generally only sell the "basic" C60 models in 38mm. Usually all of the special colors/editions/COSC versions/in-house movement only come in the 43mm size.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*This isn't a suggestion*

One of the more interesting vintage style 3-handers I've seen is the Longines Conquest Heritage. They made a 35mm almost 1:1 reissue, which definitely takes some guts to do these days. That being said, I have tiny wrists, and I wouldn't buy it. Because they actually want to sell some watches, they also made a 40mm modernized version. That I would buy, but I just can't get past the weird date at 12 thing. Big date watches can get away with that, otherwise, no. I'm aware that's how the original was, but that still doesn't make it a good idea. Oris moved the date on the Divers 65 vs. the original. It's an improvement. You're allowed to do that.

Also, one of the things I really dislike in general about vintage dress watch reissues is the "gotta put a date on it" thing. No. No you don't. Stop it. You're ruining classic design with an off the shelf ETA-2824 white 'LOOK AT ME" date wheel.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

I'm not picky about size. I have a small wrist (6.25"), but it's flat enough that it can sustain 50mm L2L without overhang. 40mm tends to wear as well for me as 38mm does.

When it comes to contemporary watch design, the gold standard for a GADA three-hander is the revamped 40mm Omega Railmaster. I didn't love it in pics, but in-person it's pretty striking. I'd go as far as to say it's the best watch in the current Omega lineup. The vintage reproduction LE they put out at the same time was smaller but, frankly, not as cool; this is a case where the revamp significantly improves on the original.

I've no idea how well it's selling and, admittedly, I do have eccentric tastes. I think the not-selling-all-that-well Milgauss--another 40mm three-hander--is the only truly attractive watch in the current Rolex lineup.

(This is not a request for Chris to make an homage to either, and both designs fall outside of NTH's "vintage mashup" mission, anyway.)


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Agent Sands said:


> I'm not picky about size. I have a small wrist (6.25" in), but it's flat enough that it can sustain 50mm L2L without overhang. 40mm tends to wear as well for me as 38mm does.
> 
> When it comes to contemporary watch design, the gold standard for a GADA three-hander is the revamped 40mm Omega Railmaster. I'd go as far as to say it's the best watch in the current Omega lineup. (The vintage reproduction LE they put out at the same time was smaller but, frankly, not as cool.)
> 
> ...


Can't help but agree about the Milgauss, there is something singing with that particular Rolex, as for most of the others.......

As for 3-handers, Doc has been there before and all are eminently wearable, one in particular is the Cerberus. As we have been discussing optimum dimensions, size wise for me (71/4" wrist), it brushes the outer envelope with a width of 42mm and that all important Lug-to-lug of 50mm - sweet spot or what? As for style, there is so much mustard cutting going on here:









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yes.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

The "Black Tie" Cerb is one of my favorite watches that Chris ever produced:










If I could have my pick of any three Chris Vail watches, it'd be the Commander, the "Black Tie" Cerb, and the Santa Fe. Love 'em all to pieces.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

First blogger review of the Odin, for anyone interested - NTH Odin | The Time Bum


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Let me preface this by saying I think Doc is doing an amazing job, going his own way, successfully. And I understand that there is very little impetus to get away from a very successful model of selling as many 40mm as he can produce, as fast as he can produce them. Also, that there is probably much more demand for a larger diver than there is for a smaller non-diver, by at least an order of magnitude.

I'm a fan of Zelos, I just got a Mako V2 in bronze, specifically because it's a smaller (40mm) diver. But before Elshan did another run of Mako, he did a run of Great White at a larger size, which was by all accounts successful. I don't doubt that the L/XL NTH will do as well, probably better.

Having said that, I'm always casually on the lookout for a Chr Ward GMT 38mm. I have a watch coming to me, a vintage Fortis Cosmonauts GMT 611.22.148, which is also 38mm. Steinhart seems to do OK with their 39mm offerings (even if, yes, they did expand to larger watches, and very successfully, probably now outselling the traditionally sized homages...).

One data point I'd be interested in hearing about is if Doc is ever in touch with the guy running Timefactors. They seem to be successful with sub-40mm three-handers, all the way down to 36mm. The few times I've checked stuff out on their site, they seem to have sold through on their smaller watches.

Now maybe they've just established that as their niche, and people know to go their way to pick up smaller, new manufacture watches. Maybe they are sucking exactlly or nearly all the oxygen out of the sub-40mm non-diver microbrand market. But dammit, there ought to be room for more sub-40mm non-diver watches in the microbrand market... NOT THAT NTH IS THE PARTICULAR BRAND THAT NEEDS TO BE DOING THEM.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> You see my problem here, or you don't (all of you, generally, no one in particular, specifically). It's the same for every microbrand and why so many of us make divers, not <40mm no-bezel non-divers.
> 
> My business isn't yet large enough for me to take a flyer and make 500 pieces of something and not be very sure we can sell 400 of them in 3-4 months. If my production volume was 3-4 times what it is now, yeah, I'd be more inclined to work on a 38mm whatever, because it would make up a much smaller portion of our total annual production.
> 
> ...


For me, I am glad that most micros are making divers because I dislike divers. Which means I can keep my collection relatively manageable. The only NTH I own is the Antilles, because it is the least diver looking model.

However, for the sake of discussion (not argument) per your point about everyone asking for a smaller sized, three hand, non-bezel watch, what if you offered a deposit system where everyone can put their money where their mouth is?
Something along the lines of $50-100 deposit, so the buyer isn't putting out too much of their own cash to wait on a longer term production. Then you have a good sense of how many you could actually sell of a smaller model. And if after a specified period of time if the demand doesn't justify continuing down that path, for instance only a dozen or a hundred or so chip in, then call it a day and refund the deposits. Or if there is significant demand, then you have some pre-existing interested buyers to move forward. Either you're going to prove yourself right that there is no real demand just chatter, or you are wrong and end up having something that could sell well.

I know I've basically described a Kickstarter campaign, but thinking something more targeted directly to your audience and base.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Let it not be said I'm too far up my own a$$ to make objective assessments of my own work.

I was and still am proud of the Cerberus design. I think it was some of the best work I did on my own, before Aaron and Rusty joined the design team. My intent with the Cerberus, then the Orthos, was to begin establishing a persistent design language for the L&H brand, and if I had continued in that direction, I think it would have been a good thing.

But, I should have made it smaller. 

That isn't the first time I've said that. Every previous time, I don't remember anyone disagreeing. That would have worked better as a 40mm design.

I also wish I'd have thought to make that "black-tie" version one of the original colorways, rather than a re-dial project. It was only my fourth model, and I hadn't yet refined my new model development process (or, candidly, my thinking) to the point that I saw the value in offering both date and no-date versions, and more variety with different colorways and dial layouts.

As it was with the alternative dials we had produced for the Orthos, there weren't enough of them which passed QC to make more, so they ended up being exceedingly/needlessly rare. This is why we made some of the Orthos II colorways in such small numbers. So many of the dials were rejected in assembly. 

People generally assume I've abandoned the L&H brand. I look at it like an aging rock band. They can always release a new album or go on tour, but until they do, it looks like they retired. We may come back with another L&H-branded design at some point, but for now, I simply don't have enough bandwidth to run NTH effectively and give any energy to L&H, so I just look at L&H as being on a temporary, but possibly indefinite hiatus.

I get that NTH as a brand is much less polarizing than L&H was. I think all of the L&H models might have been more successful as NTH-branded models.

I'm not saying I plan to re-make the Cerberus as a 40mm NTH model, but the idea has crossed my mind, and I wouldn't necessarily rule it out. I think it's pretty close to that Certina DS-1 style I really liked, but with the AR and lume the DS-1 lacked, and I think that more conventional case style is a bit more flexible as a platform to do designs ranging from mild to wild.

It isn't the idea I've had in mind for the 3-hander most recently, but it is one worth considering, perhaps. It may even be worth considering blending the two ideas, but we'll see.

All that said, the Cerberus's brother, the Orthos, sold more quickly. I get that 42mm is a better size for a diver than a no-bezel non-diver, and maybe the Cerberus at 40mm would have given the Orthos a run for its money, but I honestly doubt it. I think divers just sell better, generally, as I've said, so I have to be a bit more deliberate before I delve back into the world of non-divers.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Let me preface this by saying I think Doc is doing an amazing job, going his own way, successfully. And I understand that there is very little impetus to get away from a very successful model of selling as many 40mm as he can produce, as fast as he can produce them. Also, that there is probably much more demand for a larger diver than there is for a smaller non-diver, by at least an order of magnitude.
> 
> I'm a fan of Zelos, I just got a Mako V2 in bronze, specifically because it's a smaller (40mm) diver. But before Elshan did another run of Mako, he did a run of Great White at a larger size, which was by all accounts successful. I don't doubt that the L/XL NTH will do as well, probably better.
> 
> ...


That's Eddie Platts, one of the brand owners I look up to as an unofficial (he never agreed to be my) mentor. I have traded messages with him a number of times, and I admire his business very much.

He is the one exception I was speaking about. He's on record that his smaller models are doing quite well, perhaps even out-selling his larger models, and was characteristically Eddie when he publicly thanked all other micros for leaving the under 40mm market all to him.

It's funny if you know Eddie at all. He's got that sort of personality, from what I can tell.

But, again, I think it would be dangerous for another micro to emulate what Eddie is doing now without first emulating what Eddie has done. He's been at this for more than a decade, he built a solid reputation and following for his business. He even owns his own forum.

I'm not Eddie. I'm not in a position to do what he's doing, at least not yet. And, to play devil's advocate, there's always the possibility that he's full of $hlt, and the smaller models aren't doing nearly as well as he's made out.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheJohnP said:


> For me, I am glad that most micros are making divers because I dislike divers. Which means I can keep my collection relatively manageable. The only NTH I own is the Antilles, because it is the least diver looking model.
> 
> However, for the sake of discussion (not argument) per your point about everyone asking for a smaller sized, three hand, non-bezel watch, what if you offered a deposit system where everyone can put their money where their mouth is?
> Something along the lines of $50-100 deposit, so the buyer isn't putting out too much of their own cash to wait on a longer term production. Then you have a good sense of how many you could actually sell of a smaller model. And if after a specified period of time if the demand doesn't justify continuing down that path, for instance only a dozen or a hundred or so chip in, then call it a day and refund the deposits. Or if there is significant demand, then you have some pre-existing interested buyers to move forward. Either you're going to prove yourself right that there is no real demand just chatter, or you are wrong and end up having something that could sell well.
> ...


Many times, I've told people, "find 499 friends to put down non-refundable pre-payments, in full, and I'll make it."

I sometimes go on to say those pre-payments need to be made in advance of even seeing the design, which I do realize is a ridiculous demand.

And yet, I say that because of all the people who bluster, "I'd buy one right now if you make a ______." Really? Before you've even seen the design, you'd be willing to buy one, right now? Great, go find 499 friends who feel the same way.

Every startup microbrand invests the time in design "on spec", meaning, on the speculation that they'll be able to sell it when they're done. That's just how the game is played for brands in pre-launch and startup. It's like a noob sales guy working on commission only, eat what you kill. No veteran salesperson with bills to pay is going to do that.

That's not me anymore. I recently took the time to calculate what I'm spending on design support from Rusty and Aaron, not even including my own investment of time, and the number is not insubstantial.

I don't want to invest that time and money in a model we might not produce, or if we do, might not sell very well. I've done that, and it's just wasteful. Now, before we begin designing anything, I need to feel very sure that we'll see it through to production, and that it will sell well enough to justify the investment up front.

Understand, I don't just assess new ideas on their own merits anymore, and haven't for some time. I make comparative assessments. I ask myself, should I devote the resources to coming up with a new, from-scratch design, without really knowing how successful it may be, or should I just keep cranking out 40mm Subs, which sell as fast as we can make them?

Should I focus our energy on an under 40mm non-diver, or an over 42mm diver? Which is likely to produce the higher return on that investment of time and money? We're currently working on an over 42mm diver, because my instincts tell me it'll have a higher ROI than a less than 40mm non-diver.

So, while it's not fair for me to demand 500 people give me non-refundable pre-payments for some hypothetical, yet-to-be-designed whatever, that is exactly what it would take to get me to invest the resources in that project. If it's not my idea, and if I'm not very sure it'll work, then I'm not financing its development. Someone else can. I'm not working on spec anymore.

Think of it like this - I could be your production partner. You and 499 friends decide what you want, pay for it in advance, and we'll make it for you. I'll pay Rusty and Aaron to design it once I know we've got it sold.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkND said:


> I think you have the correct business model for today's market. The majority of your buyers aren't the ones yapping in your ear to make smaller watches, GMT's, etc. They are average Joe's like me who read the forums enough to know what watches are out there. Your 40mm Subs hit the sweet spot for most people. The watches I wear most are 40mm, though I do wear my bigger watches like my MM300 more often in the summer than I do in the winter (I live in Minnesota).
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk Turbo


Minnesota has summer???

How long was I asleep?

Seriously, I was in Minnesota, in the summer. The cab from the airport rolled over when a mosquito hit the side.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> They kind of did. C.W. seems to be more focused on the C65 these days - they just introduced an automatic version with applied indices. Both that and the prior hand-winder are 41mm only. It's also worth mentioning that they generally only sell the "basic" C60 models in 38mm. Usually all of the special colors/editions/COSC versions/in-house movement only come in the 43mm size.
> 
> View attachment 13887125


I'd really love to know the numbers.

You could read that different ways. It may mean that they don't sell enough of the 38mm to make it in all the varieties they make the 43mm (and I think that's how most, including I, would read it), or you might read it as they don't sell enough of any one version of the 43mm to make it in just that one version and sell all the 43mm cases, so they make more versions using that case, but each version in smaller numbers.

My gut tells me they sell more 43's than 38's. My gut also tells me they'd sell more 40's than 38's, and probably as many 44's as 43's.

I wonder if they wouldn't sell enough 42's to not bother making 40's or 44's. But Rolex makes the Submariner in 40mm, and the Seadweller range goes from 43mm to 44mm, so perhaps Chris Ward is the Burger King to Rolex's McDonald's. Why bother putting in the effort to figure out your product range when Rolex already figured it out? Just do what Rolex does, and bank your money, Chris.

I'm not there yet, but I think we're headed in the right direction. I'm happy we started NTH with the 40mm Subs, and an L/XL version at 43/44 seems like a logical next step. Four years ago, I wouldn't have been able to wrap my head around doing what we're doing, rather than just splitting the baby in half by making a single 42mm model.

So, to sum up - no, I'm not investing in any under 40mm non-diver model right now, but I wouldn't rule it out for the future, even though I think a precisely 40mm non-diver might be the better play, and I'd rather let the circumstances develop to the point that the right move becomes clear, instead of trying to figure it out now, with a lot of needless discussion/debate.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Many times, I've told people, "find 499 friends to put down non-refundable pre-payments, in full, and I'll make it."


499 friends?

I can't even convince *10* friends to all show up at a single happy hour.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> 499 friends?
> 
> I can't even convince *10* friends to all show up at a single happy hour.


True.

With help from HKEd, I organized a dinner for microbrand owners in Hong Kong last year, and it was like herding cats. I hadn't even gotten to the restaurant yet, and the last minute messages I was getting from people made me question my own sanity for bothering.

Coming into 2018, the growth of my business had leveled off for three years running, and I had to admit I needed expert help to get it to the next level. I spent two full days with some small business growth consultants, doing a deep dive into everything, to see what was working well, and what needed to be improved.

A good bit of our focus was on the new product development process. One element of that was the concept of feasibility, the idea that not every idea is equally worthy of pursuit, and so we needed to be more methodical, more analytical in our process, to avoid investing in ideas which just aren't feasible.

We solved a lot of problems in those two days, and as a result, the business grew more in 2018 than it had since its first year.

A lot of brands are using the spaghetti method. Throw everything at the wall, and see what sticks. That's a poor way to run an operation, and it guarantees a slower rate of growth, if there is any growth.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Agent Sands said:


> 499 friends?
> 
> I can't even convince *10* friends to all show up at a single happy hour.


First round on you and I'm there!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> Let it not be said I'm too far up my own a$$ to make objective assessments of my own work.
> 
> I was and still am proud of the Cerberus design. I think it was some of the best work I did on my own, before Aaron and Rusty joined the design team. My intent with the Cerberus, then the Orthos, was to begin establishing a persistent design language for the L&H brand, and if I had continued in that direction, I think it would have been a good thing.
> 
> ...


don't play with my emotions man


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'd really love to know the numbers.
> 
> You could read that different ways. It may mean that they don't sell enough of the 38mm to make it in all the varieties they make the 43mm (and I think that's how most, including I, would read it), or you might read it as they don't sell enough of any one version of the 43mm to make it in just that one version and sell all the 43mm cases, so they make more versions using that case, but each version in smaller numbers.
> 
> My gut tells me they sell more 43's than 38's. My gut also tells me they'd sell more 40's than 38's, and probably as many 44's as 43's.


Right now, you can get the 38mm C60 with a black or white dial in SS, or a blue dial in bronze. In 43mm, there's the black with SS bezel. Not an insert as far as I can tell, they made a separate bezel for it. There's 5 color options for the standard SS case, including the black and white also offered in 38mm. There's the blue/bronze one, and interestingly they didn't even bother making a rubber strap for the 38mm version with its smaller 20mm lug width. If you want to actually swim with the 38 bronze, you'll have to get the canvas, or buy your strap elsewhere.

Then there's the LE bronze COSC, blue day-date COSC, bronze GMT, and the two titanium models.

Doing the math, that's three 38mm models, and twelve 43mm models. Combine that with the fact that they couldn't even be bothered to make a blue 20mm rubber strap for the bronze 38 (they make a black rubber strap in 20mm for the regular ones) and I think that's a _really_ strong indicator that the 43s outsell the 38s by an order of magnitude.

When it came time to launch a new, thinner and more wearable model with a more modest 150M WR (not that the C60's 13.3mm case height is necessarily outrageous), I think C.W. recognized what we're all thinking - 38mm is too small, and 43mm is unnecessarily large, and so they split the difference at 41mm, which is likely to please the most people at once. The L2L is a very reasonable 47.1mm which fits even tiny wrists like mine, and at the same time, the big dial/thin bezel look makes the watch appear larger than it is, so even folks with wrists the size of tree trunks shouldn't be put off by it.

Now if only they could something about that damn logo....


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

I was quite keen on the 38mm c60 GMT but they’re rare as hens teeth


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Another note, my current grail watch is the B&R V2-92 Aeronavale, which is identical in size to the CW diver - 41/47. The prior version, the BR123, was 43mm and over 50mm L2L, and it was too big. One reviewer described it as a "blue and gold billboard." B&R didn't redesign it because they wanted to sell less watches. I think 40-42 and 46-49 L2L is how you get just about everyone. There's a market for <40s, and there's a market for >42s, just ask Panerai. I think both of those markets are smaller though, particularly at <40.


----------



## Fabrizio_Morini (May 20, 2017)

Stunning watch  have a good day guys









Inviato dal mio NX531J utilizzando Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> I think both of those markets are smaller though, *particularly at <40*.


...


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> Another note, my current grail watch is the B&R V2-92 Aeronavale, which is identical in size to the CW diver - 41/47. The prior version, the BR123, was 43mm and over 50mm L2L, and it was too big. One reviewer described it as a "blue and gold billboard." B&R didn't redesign it because they wanted to sell less watches. I think 40-42 and 46-49 L2L is how you get just about everyone. There's a market for <40s, and there's a market for >42s, just ask Panerai. I think both of those markets are smaller though, particularly at <40.
> 
> View attachment 13889359
> 
> ...


I will kindly thank you not to publicize that this watch even exists. They are darned hard to come by, and we don't need the competition. ;-)


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> First blogger review of the Odin, for anyone interested - NTH Odin | The Time Bum


Maybe I missed it, and for fear of it resulting in a 4 paragraph explanation of how time is relative or some such, can I ask when these are expected to be released?

And since there's been discussion of CW above, rumor is a 40mm CW Trident C60 is supposedly on the way in May.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Finally trying out the Nick Mankey hook strap.

INITIAL REACTION:

It's damn comfortable-a frontrunner for the title of most comfortable strap I've ever worn.

The look is very, very casual, so that's perhaps a trade off.

Getting it to hold its positioning/sizing seems a bit finicky.

I'm on the fence ATM because of the latter two observations.

But the instructions say you eventually get the hang of it, so I'll give it a day or two on the wrist and reassess.

Similarly, it took me a little while to master hooking an Erika's MN.




























(Looks somewhat bulky but not so when it all gets compressed on wrist.)










FOLLOW-UP THOUGHTS:

I think I have the sizing and positioning figured out. So rather than describing it as "finicky," I'll instead just say that there's a little bit of a learning curve to the strap system.

This seems to be how the hardware needs to be positioned under the wrist to prevent slouch that would then need to be readjusted:










Lots of strap and stitching color, and hardware finishing, combos can be ordered.

A nice addition to a casual wear collection of natos, Erika's, perlons, etc.

Consider this a strong endorsement of the Nick Mankey hook strap; IMO, a good accompaniment for an NTH Sub!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Rice and Gravy said:


> Maybe I missed it, and for fear of it resulting in a 4 paragraph explanation of how time is relative or some such, can I ask when these are expected to be released?
> 
> And since there's been discussion of CW above, rumor is a 40mm CW Trident C60 is supposedly on the way in May.


In review you posted he says at the end "Vail plans to release the NTH Odin in the spring through NTH's webstore and authorized retailers."

Which is whats been said in here as well.


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

I did see that, but thought perhaps something more specific had been mentioned.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Valentine will love this........









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

The entire watch-size debate reminds me of trousers and shoes. For someone to suggest that waist-size 34 ought to be right for everyone, and all should wear size 9 footwear (sorry I don't know the EU size equivalent) sounds ludicrous. But people make a similar suggestion regarding watches all the time.

HOWEVER, when you go to look for both off-the-rack shoes and pants, you'll find most of the mid-ranges sizes are in short supply, but there are lots of the "fringe" sizes. 

Point being: there's a market for everything, but there's a bigger market in the middle. Regardless, if you have a 28" waist or wear a size 16 shoe, the mid-range won't fit as well. It's nice that Eddie, Doc, Chris Ward, and others manage to hit all the sizes between them...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rice and Gravy said:


> Maybe I missed it, and for fear of it resulting in a 4 paragraph explanation of how time is relative or some such, can I ask when these are expected to be released?
> 
> And since there's been discussion of CW above, rumor is a 40mm CW Trident C60 is supposedly on the way in May.


Be fair.

I could have kept that response to two paragraphs.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Finally trying out the Nick Mankey hook strap.
> 
> INITIAL REACTION:
> It's damn comfortable-a frontrunner for the title of most comfortable strap I've ever worn.
> ...


I have a couple of MHSs and will confirm all this. Comfortable -- very. Nick markets them as being "like a sweatshirt" comfortable, but just about as casual-wear.

I don't even unhook to remove -- just slide it off and on -- unlike EO MNs, there's enough elasticity to allow for this. Which makes it even more convenient. You need to like a strap which hugs your wrist instead of being slightly loose.

You also need to like one solid color, no stripes, because the only contrast will be the cross stitch, and for me, it's not visible, on the bottom of the wrist, in use. Alternately, there is a rainbow of colors -- I have one in boring black with cream stitching, but the other one I got is screaming orange, which is a way-bright near fluorescent safety orange color, with electric blue stitching.

Unlike with a NATO or Perlon, but like with EO MN, you do need to remove the springbars to install. Upshot is that Nick includes a pair of quick release bars with every order.

I tried these out as an alternative to EO MN straps, and it works well in that role, very appropriate considering the price difference. I don't like NATO straps because of the double-pass of strap beneath the watch, which is why I prefer RAF, Perlon, and EO single-pass straps. Mankey beats them all, with no fabric under the watch, when installed.

Endorsed, +1.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

So, here's some random thinks...

I recently started binge-watching The Grand Tour on Amazon Prime. If you don't know it, it's the same three British idiots from Top Gear, basically doing the same shtick, but even less structured.

It's brilliant.

Anyhoo, one of my favorite bits is when they compare three seemingly uncomparable cars, argue about them a lot, and ultimately learn nothing.

Sound familiar?

Last night I watched them do a rally race through a gravel quarry in a Bentley SUV, a Range Rover, and a Jaguar F-pace, three SUVs which few people would ever comparison shop. Just to give one data point - the OPTIONS PACKAGE alone on the Bentley costs more than the $51,000 Jaguar.

Sort of like comparing the Barracuda to the Black Bay. Of course the Black Bay is "better". It costs more than 5 times what the Barracuda costs. It's effectively a Rolex by another name. It's got heritage, cachet, hopefully better finishing, applied markers, they're probably more accurate on average, etc, etc, etc. It's the Bentley vs the Jaguar. How can I say the Barracuda is "better"?

I dunno. I liked the Jaguar best out of the three SUVs. I thought it was the best looking, inside and out, and made the most sense as a daily driver.

I thought the Bentley was an ugly beast, and it's many advantages/features over the Jaguar came at an obscene cost. The dash panel has wood from trees which only grow on the side of some cliff somewhere far away. They have to lower people down on ropes to harvest them. We cut down two trees at my old house. They could have had that wood for the cost of renting a chainsaw. Silly tits, if you ask me.

At one point Jeremy Clarkson said you buy the Jaguar if you can't afford the Range Rover. Maybe, but it's possible to thoroughly enjoy what you can afford, and not miss that which you can't afford. I can't afford a yacht. I don't mind not having one. I never really liked boats much. The Range Rover doesn't do much for me, honestly. It looks like a rolling, oversized toaster.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> I have a couple of MHSs and will confirm all this. Comfortable -- very. Nick markets them as being "like a sweatshirt" comfortable, but just about as casual-wear.
> 
> I don't even unhook to remove -- just slide it off and on -- unlike EO MNs, there's enough elasticity to allow for this. Which makes it even more convenient. You need to like a strap which hugs your wrist instead of being slightly loose.
> 
> ...


Great additional thoughts re: easy albeit "tight" removal, wrist hugging, coloring considerations, installation, and good cost.

I often modify my natos to single pass RAF style, including removing some metal hardware and creating a fabric holder from some excess removed fabric. The cut portion, which gets burnt to prevent fraying, can be felt on the wrist.

Compared to a modified nato, the NM hook strap is simply a more comfortable wear.

That said, variety is the spice of life, and with straps, there's lots of cool textures, and pros and cons to different styles.

So for a WIS, you've gotta have them all in your drawer 










P.S. Lest it be forgotten with all this strap talk, the Nazario Sauro is a great watch and strap monster 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

i could post a WOT, but that would be out of character

so i hope a photo will do









damn you chris...the battle for watch box space continues


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Great additional thoughts re: easy albeit "tight" removal, wrist hugging, coloring considerations, installation, and good cost.
> 
> I often modify my natos to single pass RAF style, including removing some metal hardware and creating a fabric holder from some excess removed fabric. The cut portion, which gets burnt to prevent fraying, can be felt on the wrist.
> 
> ...


+2 on the Mankey straps. They are the most comfortable straps I have. I have 3 of them at present.

That being said, I still have a variety of Nato and Zulu straps I still wear on other watches. I've made all of mine single pass. I kind of have certain straps and colors for certain watches.

Basically, I have way to many straps.

Sent from my Commodore 64


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> So, here's some random thinks...
> 
> I recently started binge-watching The Grand Tour on Amazon Prime. If you don't know it, it's the same three British idiots from Top Gear, basically doing the same shtick, but even less structured.
> 
> ...


I had contemplated selling a few watches and getting a Black Bay. But I decided I like the variety of my watch collection and didnt want to thin the herd that much. I solved the problem of wanting a Black Bay by getting a NTH BVB. I like the case and dimensions of the NTH more than the Black Bay. I can only wear any watch for so long before I feel the urge to change to a different watch. I must have some sort of mental condition.

Sent from my Commodore 64


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Dunno what my life would be like if I couldn’t read new posts on this thread 2-3 times a day.

Anything might happen here, and I love it.

Enlightening, innit.

Yer modern Tudor ain’t a rebadged Rolex in terms of level of quality, but it ain’t nowt to sniff at either. Yer Rolex finishing’s gone up up up since their nostalgic tool watch days, and IMHO it’s right up there with many of the top luxury brands. Maybe not with the very top, but it’s well up there.

Tudor is middle of the road, finishing-wise, and no less desirable for it. Who needs fancy finishing on a watch that’s designed to be immersed in salt water? So no, I don’t think Tudor’s quality’s beyond the reach of NTH. And the aesthetic design of NTH is arguably better. I certainly think so, but many can’t see beyond the badge.

Ric


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

What!???


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

Oldie but goodie...


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

MarkND said:


> I always get a chuckle when big watches are called a trend. That's the same thing they were saying on the watch forums 20 years ago, big watches are a trend and it will pass. I've had a Seiko 6309 diver since 1986...


If anybody is so lucky to have the opportunity to pay a visit to the Patek Philippe Museum in Geneva, there you can see that „big watches" have been a „trend" at least since the 1920ies. They have a nice exhibition on the 2nd floor iirc that leads through the decades. They had 40mm rectangular watches back then and equally sized round/oval wristwatches as well. I don't remember the references, but it struck me.

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> What!???


Pleb.

View attachment 13891165


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Better than the Tudor BB58, less than 20% of the price, no waiting, and no maintenance costs, ever. When it dies, in 20-30 years, bin it.
> 
> How'd I do?


Crap.

I also forgot 0.4mm thinner, a lumed crown, lumed bezel markers, steel rather than aluminum bezel insert, drilled lugs, 2 half-links, 50% more water resistance, 100% more micro-adjustments on the clasp, and a more articulated bracelet.

Feels like I should be charging way more than $650, now that I'm looking at this list...


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Crap.
> 
> I also forgot 0.4mm thinner, a lumed crown, lumed bezel markers, steel rather than aluminum bezel insert, drilled lugs, 2 half-links, 50% more water resistance, 100% more micro-adjustments on the clasp, and a more articulated bracelet.
> 
> Feels like I should be charging way more than $650, now that I'm looking at this list...


I'm not paying a cent more until you get a Vantablack[SUP]TM[/SUP] dial.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Agent Sands said:


> I'm not paying a cent more until you get a Vantablack[SUP]TM[/SUP] dial.


I wonder if whatever is inside those riveted links on the BB58 can only be inserted into the links one way. From the images I've seen, there's no arrows on the inside of the bracelet.

I also wonder how many people lose parts of the bracelet in the process of sizing it, and if Tudor includes additional "extra" links, like NTH does.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

That's one I let get away. Should've kept it, even if it was too big for me.



Agent Sands said:


> The "Black Tie" Cerb is one of my favorite watches that Chris ever produced:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I doubt it.



docvail said:


> Be fair.
> 
> I could have kept that response to two paragraphs.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Just because I need to feed the bear once in a while, you're pushing your luck here.

I suspect many around F71 could afford the BB58 if they really wanted one and could get it. I picked the BVB over the BB58 because I wanted it for a different purpose. I wanted a great looking watch I wouldn't kick myself for kludging. But I'll bet my first born that most of the "extra" value for the Tudor comes in the bracelet and the packaging. I don't care a crap about packaging--it's just boxes in my closet that make them more expensive to ship--but those Tudor rivet bracelets are outfuckingstanding. The NTH bracelet is fine, but it's not as good as the head. Sorry. It's just not.



docvail said:


> I wonder if whatever is inside those riveted links on the BB58 can only be inserted into the links one way. From the images I've seen, there's no arrows on the inside of the bracelet.
> 
> I also wonder how many people lose parts of the bracelet in the process of sizing it, and if Tudor includes additional "extra" links, like NTH does.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Just because I need to feed the bear once in a while, you're pushing your luck here.
> 
> I suspect many around F71 could afford the BB58 if they really wanted one and could get it. I picked the BVB over the BB58 because I wanted it for a different purpose. I wanted a great looking watch I wouldn't kick myself for kludging. But I'll bet my first born that most of the "extra" value for the Tudor comes in the bracelet and the packaging. I don't care a crap about packaging--it's just boxes in my closet that make them more expensive to ship--but those Tudor rivet bracelets are outfuckingstanding. The NTH bracelet is fine, but it's not as good as the head. Sorry. It's just not.


Monta's bracelet is the best I've seen yet from any micro. They charge $225 for it. A top shelf bracelet and a better clasp like Tudor's or Rolex's costs more to make than an NTH bracelet, of that I have no doubt. Not _that_ much more, though. What you're paying for is the MT in-house movement vs. a Miyota, and the fact that it says Tudor on it. I would say Tudor's finishing is definitely above average, but the problem is I don't know enough about watchmaking to be able to tell the difference between what I _think_ looks more expensive vs. what actually does cost more to produce.

For example, I think Tudor's thin bezel with the very fine polished coin-edge looks more expensive than the NTH sub bezel with its much broader edges. Is it? No idea. It's entirely possible that the NTH sub bezel design is completely an aesthetic choice, and that Doc could make a 1:1 copy of the Tudor bezel if he wanted to and keep the price relatively the same. I personally like the look of the Tudor bezel more. Am I going to pay $4K for one? No.

If there's a difference in finishing quality between Tudor and B&R, it's small enough that I really don't care. The B&R comes with a Sellita, which to me is an advantage over the MT movement. I don't care about in-house movements whatsoever, and the fact that any watchmaker who's ever worked on an ETA-2892 can service it is a huge plus. Then there's the fact that I can buy a V2-92 Aeronavale GM, with no waiting at all, for about 60% the price of a BB58. You can't argue with that.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> So, here's some random thinks...
> 
> I recently started binge-watching The Grand Tour on Amazon Prime. If you don't know it, it's the same three British idiots from Top Gear, basically doing the same shtick, but even less structured.
> 
> ...


The car business is weird. Years ago, VW thought it would be a good idea to make a really expensive flagship luxury sedan. Nevermind the fact that VW owns Audi, who had already been making just such a car called the A8 for years, or the fact that VW is mostly known for $25K Golf diesels and the GTI, which is a Golf with a turbo. They had to do it anyway, because Ferdinand Piech was running the show at the time, who is an insane person. So they made the Phaeton, which was an enormously complicated, incredibly unreliable beast that nobody bought.

Rather than chuck the entire platform and pretend the whole thing never happened, VW instead decided to put a big bloated coupe body on it with a Bentley badge, and triple the price. They couldn't make them fast enough. Nevermind the fact that a bunch of the parts and switches on the inside were straight out of the VW parts bin, including really obvious stuff like the shift lever, and similar parts in Audis also at 1/3 of the price were better. If you lived in southern California and you wanted to show that you had a lot of money, you bought a Continental GT.

The British look at Range Rovers the way some Americans look at the Jeep Wrangler - they seem them as the greatest cars ever made, and are completely blind to their many, many faults. In the case of the Wrangler, that would be that until a few years ago they were practically undriveable on any sort of paved surface. With the Range Rover, it's literal faults - they are consistently some of the most, if not _the_ most unreliable cars you can buy.

The problem Jag has is that no one buys their cars. It's gotten to the point that they are actively considering scrapping their entire lineup and instead going after Tesla with electric models only. Why no one buys them is that Jag has the same problem as Cadillac, whose cars don't sell either. Lots of development in suspension tuning and handling; interiors that are thrown together with very little thought and are barely better than what you'd get in a Honda.

A new Jag comes out, people yawn and buy the BMW.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> The car business is weird. Years ago, VW thought it would be a good idea to make a really expensive flagship luxury sedan. Nevermind the fact that VW owns Audi, who had already been making just such a car called the A8 for years, or the fact that VW is mostly known for $25K Golf diesels and the GTI, which is a Golf with a turbo. They had to do it anyway, because Ferdinand Piech was running the show at the time, who is an insane person. So they made the Phaeton, which was an enormously complicated, incredibly unreliable beast that nobody bought.
> 
> Rather than chuck the entire platform and pretend the whole thing never happened, VW instead decided to put a big bloated coupe body on it with a Bentley badge, and triple the price. They couldn't make them fast enough. Nevermind the fact that a bunch of the parts and switches on the inside were straight out of the VW parts bin, including really obvious stuff like the shift lever, and similar parts in Audis also at 1/3 of the price were better. If you lived in southern California and you wanted to show that you had a lot of money, you bought a Continental GT.
> 
> ...


That is all fine as an American point of view, but on a global scale I think you will find that Jaguar and Range Rover have a far larger appeal and audience.

As for the VW/Audi/ Bentley discussion I think you will find that the entire VAG share their parts across all of the brands. If you look under the hood of any model you will see the same components everywhere.

I once spent a day test driving various cars looking to buy one. I test drove an Audi A4, a VW Passat and a Skoda Octavia and sitting inside them felt almost exactly the same! They had the same engines, gearbox and chassis, with only the handling and acceleration to really differentiate them.

Similarly to the watch market it becomes all about brand and design! At a basic level the components are all shared, it is just down to which brand and design you prefer, and how much you are willing to pay for it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Omegafanboy said:


> That is all fine as an American point of view, but on a global scale I think you will find that Jaguar and Range Rover have a far larger appeal and audience.
> 
> As for the VW/Audi/ Bentley discussion I think you will find that the entire VAG share their parts across all of the brands. If you look under the hood of any model you will see the same components everywhere.
> 
> ...


VAG and Swatch group would be pretty much equivalent.

I have noticed for example the dial in my Union Noramis is pretty much the same as in a Certina DS-1. Both sunburst grey, with same kind of curve on edge of dial. Same pale tone to the rose gold markers. Found out by some other member posting pictures of his DS-1. Different layout, but base dial and material of markers seem identical. Very likely the same dial manufacturer.
Union and Certina, Audi and VW. Same business model, different industry.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Just because I need to feed the bear once in a while, you're pushing your luck here.
> 
> I suspect many around F71 could afford the BB58 if they really wanted one and could get it. I picked the BVB over the BB58 because I wanted it for a different purpose. I wanted a great looking watch I wouldn't kick myself for kludging. But I'll bet my first born that most of the "extra" value for the Tudor comes in the bracelet and the packaging. I don't care a crap about packaging--it's just boxes in my closet that make them more expensive to ship--but those Tudor rivet bracelets are outfuckingstanding. The NTH bracelet is fine, but it's not as good as the head. Sorry. It's just not.


The Tudor bracelet may be amazing in every way, yet the fact remains our bracelet is more articulated, and I'd bet a dollar to a donut ours is more comfortable.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

The gilt is strong today.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Monta's bracelet is the best I've seen yet from any micro. They charge $225 for it. A top shelf bracelet and a better clasp like Tudor's or Rolex's costs more to make than an NTH bracelet, of that I have no doubt. Not _that_ much more, though. What you're paying for is the MT in-house movement vs. a Miyota, and the fact that it says Tudor on it. I would say Tudor's finishing is definitely above average, but the problem is I don't know enough about watchmaking to be able to tell the difference between what I _think_ looks more expensive vs. what actually does cost more to produce.
> 
> For example, I think Tudor's thin bezel with the very fine polished coin-edge looks more expensive than the NTH sub bezel with its much broader edges. Is it? No idea. It's entirely possible that the NTH sub bezel design is completely an aesthetic choice, and that Doc could make a 1:1 copy of the Tudor bezel if he wanted to and keep the price relatively the same. I personally like the look of the Tudor bezel more. Am I going to pay $4K for one? No.
> 
> ...


That's a whole nother can o worms. Personally, i like the NTH with its Miyota, because I haven't reset it in two weeks. Whatever the hell its running, its good enough for me. If it breaks, a new one is under 100.

Chris hates this, but id gladly pay 750 for an upgrade on bracelet. That's just me. He knows his business, and I'm the guy looking for the XXXL In pale yellow, when everyone else is buying medium blue.

Still, the BVB is my longest honeymoon ever. It's awesome.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The Tudor bracelet may be amazing in every way, yet the fact remains our bracelet is more articulated, and I'd bet a dollar to a donut ours is more comfortable.


You'll owe me a dollar, or a doughnut, not sure what youre saying. I love you, bro, but I bring it straight or not at all. There's no shame in Tudor's seconds.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Just because you challenged me. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> That's a whole nother can o worms. Personally, i like the NTH with its Miyota, because I haven't reset it in two weeks. Whatever the hell its running, its good enough for me. If it breaks, a new one is under 100.
> 
> *Chris hates this, but id gladly pay 750 for an upgrade on bracelet. *That's just me. He knows his business, and I'm the guy looking for the XXXL In pale yellow, when everyone else is buying medium blue.
> 
> ...


I don't hate it, no more than I hate it when someone says they'd be willing to pay more for me to have the date complication removed rather than have a phantom date change position on the crown.

I get that you'd pay $100 more for a bracelet which I guess would be $100 nicer (whatever that looks like), and that Phil the Phantom Date Change Hater would pay $100 more for us to remove the date complication.

The problem is - what about everyone else? Is everyone else going to see the $100 in added value, or are they going to piss and moan about the $750 price tag?

Considering how people piss and moan about the $650 price tag, my keen sense of the obvious tells me it's a terrible idea.



hwa said:


> You'll owe me a dollar, or a doughnut, not sure what youre saying. I love you, bro, but I bring it straight or not at all. There's no shame in Tudor's seconds.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How are you not sure? I said our bracelet has more articulation (which it absolutely does), and that I'd bet a dollar (mine) to a doughnut (anyone else's) that our bracelet is more comfortable.

Does it look nicer? Meh, that's subjective. I think rivet bracelets look stupid, personally. I prefer the clean lines of just about any other style. I can't decide if I dislike rivet bracelets or jubilee bracelets more, but they both suck, I know that.

Is ours as "good" as Tudor's? Meh, I'm guessing not, but what's a Tudor bracelet cost? If it's more than our watch, I won't be surprised. Is it worth that? I seriously doubt it.



hwa said:


> Just because you challenged me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for proving my point. That looks like refried $hlt. Now quit screwing around, and put the stock oyster back on it.


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

docvail said:


> I don't hate it, no more than I hate it when someone says they'd be willing to pay more for me to have the date complication removed rather than have a phantom date change position on the crown.
> 
> I get that you'd pay $100 more for a bracelet which I guess would be $100 nicer (whatever that looks like), and that Phil the Phantom Date Change Hater would pay $100 more for us to remove the date complication.
> 
> ...


mmmmm fried oysters


----------



## bjjkk (Oct 20, 2011)

That Tudor bracelet looks awesome, just saying


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That bracelet looks like ass on that Barracuda.

And I would complain if the subs were priced any higher. I've already scratched the .... out of my Nacken's bracelet; I see no reason to do that kind of damage to a bracelet that cost me $100 more for the privilege.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The Tudor bracelet may be amazing in every way, yet the fact remains our bracelet is more articulated, and I'd bet a dollar to a donut ours is more comfortable.


I have both. While I won't say the NTH is MORE comfortable, it's def AS comfortable as the Tudor. Given the price difference (of what one would pay for it if buying separately as a consumer), I'd say that's easily a point in the NTH column.

Edit: So, you might technically owe him a , but it's prob worth it.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

This thread is gold...

I can afford neither a NTH nor a Tudor bracelet right now, yet, I am scrimping for one of Doc's future 8.25 inch wrist friendlier wares. Tudor, meh... lovely, yet.. unsullied by character.

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I don't hate it, no more than I hate it when someone says they'd be willing to pay more for me to have the date complication removed rather than have a phantom date change position on the crown.
> 
> I get that you'd pay $100 more for a bracelet which I guess would be $100 nicer (whatever that looks like), and that Phil the Phantom Date Change Hater would pay $100 more for us to remove the date complication.
> 
> ...


Love it! But f'real, yer a kook. Comfort is as subjective as appearance.

And to your point, gray market tudor bracelet is $575 last I checked. Is it worth it, suit yourself

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Maybe I should add: this isnt a tudor bracelet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

That looks a lot like the watchgecko bracelet. If it is that, then it's much more of a PITA to resize than the previous gen Subs bracelet, but it has nicer brushing and link shape. Cannot compare to the latest version of subs bracelet (someone please send your sub my way for all eternity), but by the sound of things, some folks currently are talking about objectives like build quality while other folks are crying about subjectives like aesthetic appeal of _magnus equus asinus_.

Edit: FWIW if we talk about bracelet comfort, from what I've tried, the by far most comfortable bracelet is the (deliberately?) rattly-with-sh*t-clasp UncleSeiko Z199 jubilee for seiko turtles, and second comfortable bracelets would be any of the currently popular generic beads-of-rice bracelets (assuming a good clasp with microadjustments). The Z199 is a step above the BoRs. In part it's the strong taper, and mostly it's the light weight, thin link profile (it maters way more than I expected. Thin, short links FTW), and the generous flex in each joint (which makes it 'rattly' but also makes it drape more like cloth than metal). For BoRs, the comfort (imo) comes from the generous lateral flexibility and short link length.

That "rivet-style" bracelet is very similar to your basic (old variant) subs bracelet comfortwise, since links are about as long and as thick, tolerances are about equally tight (no rattle), tapers are about the same, and clasps are about the same too. There's just not enough to physically cause a major difference in how these bracelets drape over the wrist curvature... the diff can mostly come from either link weight difference, or clasp adjustment*. The big difference is more in the link design (so aesthetics).

* - Imo we should generally consider bracelets i.e. link profiles/build as separate from clasps, because the two are very different components, often independent of each other in design, feel, and construction.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Love it! But f'real, yer a kook. Comfort is as subjective as appearance.
> 
> And to your point, gray market tudor bracelet is $575 last I checked. Is it worth it, suit yourself
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


$575.

For a bracelet.

That's the Bentley SUV of watch components - uglier than a chimpanzee's a$$ and 5 times what a really great bracelet will cost you from any number of sellers.

For that much money, you could buy an Orthos from WatchGauge, a Subs' bracelet from me, and still have enough cash to get $hitty drunk.

You need a role model.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Omegafanboy said:


> That is all fine as an American point of view, but on a global scale I think you will find that Jaguar and Range Rover have a far larger appeal and audience.
> 
> As for the VW/Audi/ Bentley discussion I think you will find that the entire VAG share their parts across all of the brands. If you look under the hood of any model you will see the same components everywhere.
> 
> ...


JLR sold 592,000 cars world wide in 2018, 180,000 of which were Jags. The BMW group typically sells well over 200,000 cars - _per month_. As I said, no one buys Jags - anywhere. That's why they are considering a complete re-do of their entire line, and moving away from internal combustion entirely. You don't do that if things are going well.

As far as WVAG parts sharing is concerned, it depends on what. The Golf and Audi A3 for example share a platform, and both use Haldex based AWD system. VW badges it 4Motion, Audi calls it Quattro. The Passat and A4 however do not. Audi B, C, and D segment cars ride on their own architecture, with engines that sit longways. VW engines sit sideways. Those cars also use the traditional Torsen Quattro system, which no VW offers. When it comes to the SUVs, things get a lot more complicated. The Q3 is Golf based. The Q5 rides on the same platform as the A4, and doesn't share structure with the VW Tiguan. The Q7, Porsche Cayenne, and Bentley SUV though all use the same structure.

This isn't at all unique to them. Any car company with a mainstream brand and a luxury brand share drivetrains and architecture to some degree. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan do it, as do Ford and GM. My own Lincoln MKZ is a platform twin to the Ford Fusion. Platforms, engines and transmissions are simply too expensive to give each brand something unique to use for their entire lineup.

The difference between today's Continental GT and the one from 15 years ago isn't that it has nothing in common with any VW - it's that they've gotten much better at hiding those bits. Well... most of them. The buttons on the steering wheel for example are straight out of an Audi. It seems somewhat counterintuitive, but basic switchgear like that is enormously expensive to develop. That beautiful machined cruise control stalk on the other hand is all Bentley. That bit is plastic even in the most expensive A8 model.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> That's a whole nother can o worms. Personally, i like the NTH with its Miyota, because I haven't reset it in two weeks. Whatever the hell its running, its good enough for me. If it breaks, a new one is under 100.
> 
> Chris hates this, but id gladly pay 750 for an upgrade on bracelet. That's just me. He knows his business, and I'm the guy looking for the XXXL In pale yellow, when everyone else is buying medium blue.
> 
> ...


The Miyota is an accurate, ultra reliable 4Hz movement that's nearly as cheap to replace as a Seiko NH35. What's not to like about that? It's like Lotus using Toyota engines in their exotic sports cars. The engine is the one thing you can absolutely count on in those cars not to break.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Textbook lesson on when to stop writing on your dial. Absolutely gorgeous blue on this LE Seiko, made so much worse by three lines of text in three different fonts, none of which need to be there.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Subs and their bracelets, bla bla . . .










The DevilRay = puts hair on chest (at least if you have a wee wrist like mine).










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Subs and their bracelets, bla bla . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Magnum PI, wireless communication pioneer, talking on a princess phone that ain't connected to $hlt, circa 1986.










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Magnum PI, wireless communication pioneer, talking on a princess phone that ain't connected to $hlt, circa 1986.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He did have nice watches.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MarkND said:


> He did have nice watches.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Rolex Pepsi GMT.

Because even when you're a private investigator who only works in Hawaii, you still want to know the time in London, England, and maybe somewhere else, too.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Rolex Pepsi GMT.
> 
> Because even when you're a private investigator who only works in Hawaii, you still want to know the time in London, England, and maybe somewhere else, too.


Yes. Clearly his corded yet cordless, waterproof phone didn't have a world time function yet.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

For everyone's knowledge, this is the second time I've struck up conversation in this thread about Tom Selleck, based on shirtless photos of him in the ocean talking on a ridiculous cordless phone.

They just always come up when I Google Image "hair on chest," and the fact that they come up with this search, and the photos in their own right, just makes me laugh.

I think the universe is telling me that I've finally found my user name avatar...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I can't decide if I dislike rivet bracelets or jubilee bracelets more, but they both suck, I know that.


Hear hear!


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

I just wanna say that Jubilee bracelets are awesome and Oyster bracelets are boring.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> I just wanna say that Jubilee bracelets are awesome and Oyster bracelets are boring.


You have to leave now.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > I just wanna say that Jubilee bracelets are awesome and Oyster bracelets are boring.
> ...


I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to post a picture of the Commander 300 on a Jubilee just to drive you mad.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Rolex Pepsi GMT.
> 
> Because even when you're a private investigator who only works in Hawaii, you still want to know the time in London, England, and maybe somewhere else, too.


The watch in the picture is a Chronosport Sea Quartz 30. The Rolex appeared later in the series. Magnum PI was my favorite show back in the 80's.

Sent from my Commodore 64


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Rivet bracelets were cool when they, like, had actual rivets.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

92gli said:


> Rivet bracelets were cool when they, like, had actual rivets.


Yeah, that's what bugs me about modern variants. It's fakery.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Someone points out there are no oysters in an oyster bracelet in 3...2...


Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Someone points out there are no oysters in an oyster bracelet in 3...2...
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


Yeah well don't get me started on the rice grain stainless steel bracelet. Seriously, how long would you need to let that simmer to make a risotto?

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Red PeeKay said:


> Yeah well don't get me started on the rice grain stainless steel bracelet. Seriously, how long would you need to let that simmer to make a risotto?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


I know a guy....


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I know a guy....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OMG. Can't stop laughing at Grand Tour.

First episode of Season 2, they do a hill climb event in Switzerland, to compare a Lamborghini, the new Acura NSX, and an all-electric "supercar", the Rimac Concept One, from Croatia, which claimed to be the world's fastest accelerating electric car.

It was fast. Blistering fast. So fast that it apparently put Richard Hammond into a trance, such that he forgot to press the brake after crossing the finish line, went off the road, did a dozen cheetah flips, and burst into flames, nearly losing his life, but miraculously only breaking his leg...

















And...losing his Rolex Submariner.

Or so it seemed...

Fast forward to episode 3, it's Christmas, and thoughtful Jeremy Clarkson reunites Hammond with the watch, which apparently survived the inferno, sort of.

















It looks like it was (badly) customized by those "Black Ops" twits.

James May was equally thoughtful, in presenting Hammond with a pair of new running shoes, adorned with the logo of Hammond's favorite car, the Morgan Plus 8...









Hammond was not enthused...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OMG, it gets better.

Clarkson also got him an alarm clock, complete with overturned, wrecked car on top...









And when the alarm goes off...


----------



## Deledda (Jun 15, 2014)

I'm sure it's been mentioned, but pretty sure I saw a red Orthos while watching Diners, Drive ins and Dives last night. Always hawking wrists on that show.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rob.deledda said:


> I'm sure it's been mentioned, but pretty sure I saw a red Orthos while watching Diners, Drive ins and Dives last night. Always hawking wrists on that show.


I thought it was Guy's Grocery Games, but maybe it was both/same guy.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Science attempts to determine the ideal watch size...










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Science attempts to determine the ideal watch size...


That's about what I would've expected.

I think the results would shift if you were asking about a specific *kind* of watch, but even if you were asking about a dress watch design, I still think you'd find 40mm to be the more popular size than 38mm and under.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> That's about what I would've expected.
> 
> I think the results would shift if you were asking about a specific *kind* of watch, but even if you were asking about a dress watch design, I still think you'd find 40mm to be the more popular size than 38mm and under.


To be fair, that poll was posted in the Diver's Watches group on Facebook, so I'd expect it to skew towards larger sizes.

I'd expect the results to be different if we got specific, especially if we specifically said the watch in question would NOT be a diver, and we'd probably skew even smaller still if we add "dress watch", or other verbiage to suggest a smaller size would be more appropriate.

It's not really scientific. But I think it is instructional to note the preference for 44 vs 38 by a more than 3 to 1 margin.

Since the recent discussion seemed to be (in so many words), "since you're making a >42mm diver, will you make a <40mm no-bezel non-diver", I think the poll results are relevant enough to lend some validity to what was already my strong suspicion - there are more people interested in the former than the latter.

None of which is to day I'll never make anything under 40mm, only that I don't plan to invest the energy into developing an <40mm model until my annual production/sales volume is large enough for it to make sense to add one to the product range.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yep, it was Guy's Grocery Games...

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post44628633.html#post44628633


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

rob.deledda said:


> I'm sure it's been mentioned, but pretty sure I saw a red Orthos while watching Diners, Drive ins and Dives last night. Always hawking wrists on that show.


Black Cherry? Pic from Lew and Huey site.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> ack Cherry?


Nope. It was the original Krypton Red.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

That one predates my time here, Doc.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> That one predates my time here, Doc.


Two original colorways...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Yep, it was Guy's Grocery Games...
> 
> [/url]https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post44628633.html#post44628633[/url]
> 
> View attachment 13901103


Pretty cool.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Damn double


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> Yep, it was Guy's Grocery Games...
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post44628633.html#post44628633
> 
> View attachment 13901103


It's Guy Fieri, he does Guy's Grocery Games and Diners, Drive-ins and Dives.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MarkND said:


> It's Guy Fieri, he does Guy's Grocery Games and Diners, Drive-ins and Dives.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The actual DDD car retired at a diner I frequent in Jersey:



















And an NTH shot from yesterday (textured dials are the s knees):










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> OMG. Can't stop laughing at Grand Tour.
> 
> First episode of Season 2, they do a hill climb event in Switzerland, to compare a Lamborghini, the new Acura NSX, and an all-electric "supercar", the Rimac Concept One, from Croatia, which claimed to be the world's fastest accelerating electric car.
> 
> It was fast. Blistering fast. So fast that it apparently put Richard Hammond into a trance, such that he forgot to press the brake after crossing the finish line, went off the road, did a dozen cheetah flips, and burst into flames, nearly losing his life, but miraculously only breaking his leg...


As far as Hamster racing car wrecks goes, this one is the equivalent of a fender bender. The big one several years ago on Top Gear very nearly did kill him. The guy may be short, but he's got some stones. If that first crash ever happened to me, I don't think I could ever get back into a car at racing speed. Hell I'm not sure I'd want to drive after that _at all_.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

I've been busy a few days, and so has this thread, apparently.
Just want to chime in on the small vs large diameter watch thing.
Generally there seems to be a larger demand for larger size watches, I agree, but I don't think it's as easy as looking at what's selling fastest.
There is also a self-fulfilling prophecy at play here. As long as makers are more reluctant to invest in smaller size models, these are going to be less interesting/appealing.
I have 6.25" wrists, and no trend is going to change the fact that a large watch will just look silly on my wrist, but as long as I can't find interesting watches in the small to medium sizes, I ain't buying them.
Just look at what happened in the mobile phone market when Sony, as the first maker, dared to release a smaller model matching the specs of their larger models. It sold like hot cakes.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

aicolainen said:


> I've been busy a few days, and so has this thread, apparently.
> Just want to chime in on the small vs large diameter watch thing.
> Generally there seems to be a larger demand for larger size watches, I agree, but I don't think it's as easy as looking at what's selling fastest.
> There is also a self-fulfilling prophecy at play here. As long as makers are more reluctant to invest in smaller size models, these are going to be less interesting/appealing.
> ...


Yeah, and this is why almost all modern smartphones are small...
?

Yeah no wait smartphones are also settling on huge sizes. And Sony is nowhere near the top competitors in phone sales.


----------



## aicolainen (Aug 3, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah, and this is why almost all modern smartphones are small...
> ?
> 
> Yeah no wait smartphones are also settling on huge sizes. And Sony is nowhere near the top competitors in phone sales.


Nah.

My point was that even if the majority wants the large size, there will always be a not insignificant number who needs or wants smaller as long as the specs are comparable.

Off course this was a snapshot in time, when the compact versions were introduced. User habits change fast in the smartphone market, so this isn't as relevant today. The phones are now able to replace gaming consoles, tablets and PCs for many users. And wearables filling the void for portability.

Unfortunately for Sony the quality wasn't there either.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

aicolainen said:


> I've been busy a few days, and so has this thread, apparently.
> Just want to chime in on the small vs large diameter watch thing.
> Generally there seems to be a larger demand for larger size watches, I agree, but I don't think it's as easy as looking at what's selling fastest.
> There is also a self-fulfilling prophecy at play here. As long as makers are more reluctant to invest in smaller size models, these are going to be less interesting/appealing.
> ...


Sony Xperia Z Ultra. Released 2013, and one of the first top shelf phones to break the 6" screen barrier at 6.4". It was 7.06" x 3.63" x 0.26". The current spec king - Huawei Mate 20 Pro. 6.4" display, 6.21" x 2.85" x 0.34". The Z Ultra was so big that it was basically unusable, whereas the M20 Pro is now considered ordinary in size. The main advancement with phones has been pushing the screen closer and closer to the edges. Because of that, there's very little interest in small phones when even something with over a 5.5" screen which used to be considered huge (I remember friends making fun of my early Galaxy Notes) is now on the smaller side.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Sony Xperia Z Ultra. Released 2013, and one of the first top shelf phones to break the 6" screen barrier at 6.4". It was 7.06" x 3.63" x 0.26". The current spec king - Huawei Mate 20 Pro. 6.4" display, 6.21" x 2.85" x 0.34". The Z Ultra was so big that it was basically unusable, whereas the M20 Pro is now considered ordinary in size. The main advancement with phones has been pushing the screen closer and closer to the edges. Because of that, there's very little interest in small phones when even something with over a 5.5" screen which used to be considered huge (I remember friends making fun of my early Galaxy Notes) is now on the smaller side.


I can remember thinking to myself, "what idiot needs to carry a phone around in his pocket?" Now I don't know what I'd do without mine. I do still miss my tiny Nokia, but I have to admit, carrying Google maps in my pocket while I attempt to get lost in Europe has saved me countless times.

But I still prefer 40mm watches.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_1800.jpg


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Yeah, there was a time when small phones were all the rage.









I was never into having the smallest phone, but then smart phones came along, anyway.

With the latest iterations of smart phones, bigger is better. Moar screen, and even plus sizes. If Zoolander III was produced now, Derek would be holding a plus size tablet to the side of his head to mock the current trend.

Actually, one of the things that really got me back into watches was the increasing size of phones. It was convenient to whip out a smaller phone to check the time, but as size increased, less so. The new Galaxy S8 isn't the biggest phone out there, but it did push me over the edge to where I'd rather wear a watch than check that phone.

Subtle thing, but there you have it.

Look back through horological history and you'll find periods when smaller watches were all the rage, and the trick was to pack as much as one could into the smallest package. We're on the other side of that, and apparently, like with phones, the bigger the better.

I started my watch obsession with Grampa's 32mm Longines, and picked it back up with a 37mm Seiko SNK809. I'm uncomfortable sporting a 40mm watch without a bezel, no matter that it may actually, technicallly fit my wrist. Current wear includes a 40mm Zelos Mako, a 38.5mm Sinn 556A, a Fortis Cosmonaut GMT at 39, and a Seiko SNE031 at 37mm. I could pull off an SKX because of the reasonable L-L and because it has a bezel; I bet I'd love a NTH Sub even though an Antilles didn't work for me.

But from a business perspective, NTH is on the right track, not doing a sub 40mm watch. Just not where sales are at right now. And it's not like there aren't enough other choices out there, either new or used. Supposedly the trend for big watches is reversing and when/if it does, I'd expect NTH to jump on that bandwagon, but not until. And in the meantime, the regular NTH subs at 40mm are actually on the smaller size for available divers and Sub homages.

I look forward to the day when smaller watches are back in vogue. To the point that NTH actually does release a 3-hander non-diver at <40mm. But it doesn't even bother me that it's not in the pipeline -- plenty of other choices out there to cover my wants.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We're doing mobile phone analogies now?

Fine.

The vast majority of phones I see for sale, and in people's hands, are roughly the same size - not super-small, not super-large.

My wife, my 13 year old son, my 16 year old son, my 72 year old mom, my 77 year old step-father, my sisters, my brother, his wife, my idiot brother in law, my nieces, my nephews, my sons' male friends, their female friends, every person I saw talking on a phone in Hong Kong - all pretty much the same size, which is the same size I own, and the same size of the last four mobiles I've owned.

Know why?

Because manufacturers have figured out that there's an ideal size range which fits the vast majority of people's hands, and pockets, and can be produced without being too heavy, or too difficult to operate, fits in a car's cup-holder, etc, etc, etc.

Are there people with much smaller hands, or people with bad eyes, who'd appreciate a much smaller or much larger size? Yes. Maybe a lot of them. 

Enough to rationalize development and production of XS and XXL size phones? 

Meh, I doubt it.

Understand, it's not just about being able to sell some, or even ALL of them (be they a smaller phone or a smaller watch), it's about the return on investment in R&D and production.

We developed the 40mm Subs once. One time, we put in a ton of development work. We want to wring every bit of value we can out of that investment. So far, we've produced and sold almost 2,000 NTH Subs. We'll be at or over 3,000 by the end of this year.

3,000.

I don't have to go back through the case design. I don't have to prototype again. I don't have to "sell" anyone on the dimensions, or quality, or lume, or any of that. They're a known quality. I decide which models to make and how many of each, send the order to the factory, and when they come in, they sell, fast.

We sold 300 of the Tropics. 350 of the DevilRay. A few more than 600 of the Orthos. 415 of the Phantom. I could go on, but you get the idea. 

Most micros produce 300-500 pieces of something, sell 50%-60% at a discount in pre-order, maybe 20% at full price, then blow out the rest at a discount. Know why? Because they're making what the market says it wants, rather than what they know the market will buy.

Every model we make, the investment of time, energy and money is the same, no matter how many pieces we produce for sale. If I make a 38mm this or a 43mm that, it costs me the same amount of time, energy, and money.

For most micros, it's a challenge to sell 300 pieces of anything in under a year, at any price, and it can often take 2 years to sell through a 500 piece production, even with discounted pre-orders, Black Friday sales, etc. That's a long time to have to wait to see the payoff on your investment in a new model's development.

I can't make 40mm Subs fast enough, and we sell them all at full price. 

We've delivered 850 Subs since last November (650 in November, 200 in January). I don't know exactly what my retailers have left in stock, but the last numbers I have show that we've got maybe 80 pieces left available, including the unisex Dolphins, which I knew would take longer to sell. We've sold 90% of what we produced in under 90 days. We sold the last 200 pieces we delivered in under a month. That's a blistering pace, for any watch brand, of any size.

Where's the highest ROI on our development costs? Anyone? Anyone?

Anyone?

Everyone and their brother thinks they know what I should make. An auto chrono. A GMT. A bronze watch. A titanium watch. A quartz watch. An entry level watch. A 38mm field watch.

Everyone says, "I'd buy it right now if you had it for sale. You're leaving money on the table, Chris."

I call BS. 

A search of Amazon has over 500 watches under 40mm, under $1000, with mechanical movements. A search of eBay shows over 2000 NEW pieces from 36mm to 39.9mm, steel case, round, mechanical, under $1000, etc. The first page of results has Seiko, Hamilton, Junghans, Rado, Laco...many at a huge discount to MSRP. The Junghans Max Bill is a gorgeous, 38mm Bauhaus dress watch, for $650, down from a gray market price of $1000. The Rado is $450, down from over $2000 MSRP. The Laco looks like a poor man's IWC Top Gun - under $400.

Eddie Platts has 2 versions of the 39mm Speedbird available, a 3-hander and a GMT. Go buy one.

MKII has the 38mm Hawkinge. Go buy one.

Chris Ward has countless 38mm-39mm models - divers, chronos, dress watches, field watches. Go buy one.

Glycine makes the Combat 6 in 36mm. Go buy one.

Seiko and Hamilton make under 40mm models out the wazoo. Orient has them, too. Oris has/had them. Every Nomos is under 40mm, aren't they?

What am I missing here?

"We want YOU to make one, Chris!"

Why? Again, I love that people appreciate what my team does, but I'd love it more if everything we produced sold as well as the 40mm Subs. I'll keep offering other models, and maybe at some point we'll hit on something that rivals the Subs, but I have to be mindful of what's best for my business, because what's best for my business is also what's best for my customers and my family.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

FWIW, IMO, the Sub case is the ideal Sub case - thin, nice profile shape, comfortable. It's my basis now when comparing other dive watches. I think what people might really asking for (tho I could be wrong), is for you and NTH to really redefine the [insert watch type here], like what was done with the Subs - which, I'm sure, is no easy task.

I'm with you on not trying to bottle more lightning while there's still plenty in the jar - especially when it doesn't look like there's much of a storm going on (i.e. certain areas don't look ripe for redefining and/or have a large enough base). I just think that lots of groups are not content with the current offerings in their "space" and are looking to you in hopes that you'll redefine said space like you've done with the 40mm diver. But I could be wrong too...

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Deledda (Jun 15, 2014)

docvail said:


> Yep, it was Guy's Grocery Games...
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post44628633.html#post44628633
> 
> View attachment 13901103


Cool. I do not watch that show. Same guy has a couple places in Miami that were on Triple D. Kick ass with the exposure.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

That's the thing - watch geeks, as a group, are never content, generally.

Guys are saying they want a smaller watch. I can show you dozens of examples of watches to choose from, which fit your stated preferences. I know what will happen. I know all the complaints about all the under 40mm watches already available.

The lugs are too long, the date window ruins it, I hate the logo, it costs too much, the lugs are too short, I need a date window, I hate the font, I won't buy that brand, I need a bracelet, the lugs are the wrong width, the crown's too small, the crown's too big, the hands are too short, there's not enough lume, I hate the bracelet, it's PVD, it's two-tone, I want DLC, I don't like vintage lume, blah, blah, blah.

When we make the Subs, we hear the same thing. The difference is, we make 30 different versions (so far), with or without a date, so there are lots of choices, and no matter how many reasons people can find to NOT buy one, we still have enough people who are elbowing each other out of the way to buy one.

40mm I can sell. 42mm I can sell. Over 44? Under 40?

Meh, I don't think I'll sell as many, or those we make will sell as quickly. I know no matter what we make, we'll hear the same complaints - the lugs, the date window, the lume color, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

And why should I worry about it, and stress over it, if I can't make 40mm Subs fast enough?

"Why bother making a bigger Sub, then?"

Because, at some point, we will be maxing out the value of the 40mm Sub, and I'll need another model if I want to continue growing my business. I should be working on finding that model now, and keep working on it until we find it. Every model we develop, the goal isn't to sell 500, total, it's to come up with something that we can make 500 per year, or even more, year after year.

If I have to work on a new model, I want to work on something my gut tells me has the best chance for success, and which I feel motivated enough to work on, the way I did with the Tropics and the DevilRay. 

I've tried to design stuff that I personally wasn't all that excited about, just because the market apparently wants it, and it just never works. The ideas I've had for an under 40mm model are things I like, and they're not 38mm field watches. I've tried twice to get into designing a "basic 3-hander", and twice we've stopped to work on other stuff that was more interesting.

"How do you know the under 40mm whatever won't be that model?"

My gut tells me it won't be, because of my observations and calculations. I've been watching the market carefully, intensely, and thinking about it all the time, since September of 2012. I've explored enough, produced enough, and talked to my peers enough to know what sells and what doesn't. 

It's not just about the apparent demand, it's also about your brand's effective reach. Until my reach AND the demand align, it's a non-starter.

People have suggested to me that I could make NTH nothing but the 40mm Subs. So far, it looks like they're right. I don't see enough demand to make more of anything else we've made under either the L&H or NTH brand. Maybe some day I will, but it ain't today.

I'm not getting out of bed to work on a new model if I can't sell 500 pieces in under 120 days. I don't want to think about any version of anything if we can't sell 50 or more in that time-frame. It's not worth the mental energy, much less the design time and expense. The return on investment isn't there.

Find 499 people to pay the full price, in advance, non-refundable. I'll make anything you want. Until then, I decide what we make, based on my own reading of the tea-leaves, and I'l take everyone's "leaving money on the table" comments under advisement.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rob.deledda said:


> Cool. I do not watch that show. Same guy has a couple places in Miami that were on Triple D. Kick ass with the exposure.


Yeah. I had to go back to 2017 and re-read the posts at that time. He's Richard Hale, a friend of Guy's, and also a celebrity chef, I take it.

Are people writing into the show to ask about his watch? I doubt it, which is why I'm not a huge believer in social media influencers. If a guy on TV isn't moving my needle, the musicians, the UFC fighter, and the guy with half a million Instagram followers didn't do squat, I think it's safe to say I'm not missing the boat by not having a bunch of "famous" people pimping my brand.

Nothing against Richard or anyone else. I know who and where the needle-movers are. Most of them are too far up their own a$$ for me to bother with them.


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

there one factor you didn't mention in you're rant about people asking for different things...some of us WANT TO BUY FROM YOU BECAUSE WE LIKE WHAT YOU'RE DOING but don't have the funds to buy several watches and so are looking for our perfect one...one factor in the list of want for that perfect watch is the NTH logo on it.

for me it would be a 40/38mm GMT

maybe just chill, not throw around the BS calls and be flattered 

i look forward to what every you come up with after your larger watch


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Doc, what does your gut or the tea leaves tell you about another compressor-style watch in the future?


----------



## Deledda (Jun 15, 2014)

docvail said:


> Yeah. I had to go back to 2017 and re-read the posts at that time. He's Richard Hale, a friend of Guy's, and also a celebrity chef, I take it.
> 
> Are people writing into the show to ask about his watch? I doubt it, which is why I'm not a huge believer in social media influencers. If a guy on TV isn't moving my needle, the musicians, the UFC fighter, and the guy with half a million Instagram followers didn't do squat, I think it's safe to say I'm not missing the boat by not having a bunch of "famous" people pimping my brand.
> 
> Nothing against Richard or anyone else. I know who and where the needle-movers are. Most of them are too far up their own a$$ for me to bother with them.


I get it. Thought it was cool to see a local brand on TV.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

KiwiWomble said:


> there one factor you didn't mention in you're rant about people asking for different things...some of us WANT TO BUY FROM YOU BECAUSE WE LIKE WHAT YOU'RE DOING but don't have the funds to buy several watches and so are looking for our perfect one...one factor in the list of want for that perfect watch is the NTH logo on it.
> 
> for me it would be a 40/38mm GMT
> 
> ...


For you all, this is a hobby.

For me, it's how I feed my children. I don't have a "Plan B". I've made myself unemployable, I don't have any better ideas for a different business, and, unfortunately, I'm committed to proving I'm awesome at this, just because I know it'll piss a lot of people off, because pissing doubters off is my favorite cookie, going on 40 years.

If this was how you fed your children, you'd focus on it as much as I do, and it would chafe you as much as it chafes me when people don't take "no" for an answer, but instead keep coming at you, week after week, with the same request or suggestion, and want to argue with you when you try to explain your reasons for doing what you do.

None of these people has actually done it themselves, and yet, many of them speak with an astonishing air of certainty. For them, being wrong about what I should do has no consequences.

Every day, I have to defend every decision I've made, and make now, here, on Facebook, on Instagram, etc. It never ends, ever. I think I handle it better than most people would.

You want the brand owner to be engaged on social media? Here I am, a big target for haters and trolls. You want to play "stump the chump" every day? Okay, I'll play. Don't get upset when I give you the answers. If you don't like the answers, stop asking the questions.

I'm running a business, not running for class president. Every decision I make has bigger consequences than having to flip a $600 watch for a 20% loss.

At a certain point, I think I'm within my rights to tell people to get on the bus or stay on the curb, but I'm driving, and I know where we're going, so sit down, strap in, and let me drive. I'll get us there, but not with every passenger shouting conflicting directions at me, asking me if we can stop for Happy Meals, and demanding that I explain why we're going the way we are, instead of some other way.



RmacMD said:


> Doc, what does your gut or the tea leaves tell you about another compressor-style watch in the future?


My gut tells me they're more fun to design than they are to sell.

The tea leaves are bitter AF.

EDIT/PS - one of our resellers still has a handful of the Tropics in stock. I'm not allowed to post a link, but, look for them, and you'll find them.

We made those in 2017, two years ago. My email isn't blowing up with people asking us to make more. I get 3-4 emails a day asking about the Subs.

You can find used Tropics and DevilRays on WatchRecon for less than $500. New, they were $700-$725. You can find used 40mm Subs selling for $100 over retail.

Pretend you're me.

What would you make more of?


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

I am disturbed by the recent lack of Näcken pictures here?!

Sorry for the dust... I cleaned and cleaned and everytime I do a picture its there
... I should probably be concerned about my lungs right now


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

@uvalaw2005 - Amazing quality photos... Which camera/lens do you use?

I should probably stop showing high quality NTH p0rn photos to the girlfriend for the sake of my credit card.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Doc, if you can ever find a way to monetize Walls o' Text, you'll be set for life.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Agent Sands said:


> Doc, if you can ever find a way to monetize Walls o" Text, you'll be set for life.


How about a TV show where he reads comments on WUS and slaps back with a WOT?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

People: "Doc, will you make _____?"

ME: "No."

People: "Why not? I think _____ is awesome, but most current ____ suck."

ME: "Here's a thorough explanation of my reasons, backed up by many analogies, firsthand examples, documented sources, numbers, data, facts..."

People: "OMG, what a jerk. Why can't you just say 'no', and leave it at that?"

----

ME: "You should quit your job and become a magician. Wait...a juggling magician!"

YOU: "What? I'm a lawyer. I'm not quitting my job to become a juggling magician."

ME: "Why not? Top magicians make a lot of money. That guy who started Cirque du Soleil? He's a BILLIONAIRE. He started as a street juggler."

YOU: "I went to law school. I'm still paying off the loans. I have a mortgage, car payments, kids in private school. My wife spends $300 a month doing hot yoga. Go away."

ME: "You could have just said 'no', and left it at that. I like you. You're a good lawyer, but I'd like you better as a juggling magician."

----

I've been doing this over 6 years. Not selling watches. That just pays the bills. I mean this, right here, this little dance we do, on the forum and social media. Whatever I do, people want to debate it. No matter how many ways I say "no", people don't stop. Sometimes, they get pissed off, and go around saying I'm a jerk, because I said no, or because I gave them a wall of text which says "no". 

This is the Chris show. Tickets are free. Souvenir watches are $600-$700. You know what the show is. You throw knives. I catch them, and occasionally throw them back. Why are you here if you don't like throwing knives? Why would you get upset if you know walking in I sometimes throw them back? 

People who bought front row tickets to see Gallagher brought rain gear. They didn't complain that he smashed watermelons. THAT'S THE SHOW.

Thanks for coming to the show. Please stop by the gift shop on your way home.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

We'll always have this thread. This is my primary source of entertainment...


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

"My gut tells me they're more fun to design than they are to sell.

The tea leaves are bitter AF.

EDIT/PS - one of our resellers still has a handful of the Tropics in stock. I'm not allowed to post a link, but, look for them, and you'll find them.

We made those in 2017, two years ago. My email isn't blowing up with people asking us to make more. I get 3-4 emails a day asking about the Subs.

You can find used Tropics and DevilRays on WatchRecon for less than $500. New, they were $700-$725. You can find used 40mm Subs selling for $100 over retail.

Pretend you're me.

What would you make more of?[/QUOTE]

No worries, I get it. Just asking.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

The NTH Subs hit the sweet spot, fastball down the middle swatted out of the park. 

Own 11 different versions, plus 2 Orthos and I missed out on the orange Orthos thru my own inattention. 

Doc knows WTF he is doing and I trust his instincts with my watch funds.


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

i assume you get a lot more abuse on other forms of social media or email than you do here, almost every comment on here seem very positive and at worst simple inquiries as to the future direction of about the process so far


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Seikogi said:


> @uvalaw2005 - Amazing quality photos... Which camera/lens do you use?
> 
> I should probably stop showing high quality NTH p0rn photos to the girlfriend for the sake of my credit card.


Nikon D7200 / Tokina 100mm macro


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

What are the odds of getting a sub made to the following specs:

Turkey, bacon, sharp cheddar, mustard, on a 38mm brioche, with a sandwich dial?

Mmmmmmm, turkey club sub...


Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

KiwiWomble said:


> i assume you get a lot more abuse on other forms of social media or email than you do here, almost every comment on here seem very positive and at worst simple inquiries as to the future direction of about the process so far


I never said "abuse". Your words, not mine.

Read my post above, with the summary dialogue.

I love to say "yes" when it makes business sense. I hate to say "no", but when I do, I'd love to just say "no", and be able to leave it at that. But, no one ever wants to take "no" for an answer.

People think the long posts are "angry". They're not. If I was getting angry, I'd leave the forum, and never look back.

I'm happy to hang around and entertain the discussion, about just about anything. You want to debate something? Okay, I'll debate it.

I don't understand why anyone would come into this thread, read my posts, and then complain about their tone or length.

No one is forcing anyone to read any of it. I'm not putting anyone down, or insulting anyone. I said "no" to a question, and when pressed on it, I provide an explanation for why my answer is "no".

I'm not sorry. We're adults, aren't we? If my saying "no", and providing you with my reasoning upsets you, I can't help that.

Imagine if you had to defend your every move at your job, every day, to your boss, customers, whoever. Imagine if you were able to do that, but even so, the very people demanding you defend your every move then turn around and gripe that you're able to do it, or gripe about how you do it. Imagine people being angry at you in this scenario.

I can't please everyone. I'm not pizza.

Show me one other brand owner who is as engaged as I am, who is as transparent as I am, who willingly subjects himself to whatever people throw at him as much as I do. I take the good with the bad. I'm happy for the compliments, and I accept the criticism.

I'm not changing. This is the show. If you don't like it, there are other shows. You're all free to come and go as you please, but I'm telling everyone up front what the show is, and that it's not changing, ever.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

92gli said:


> Rivet bracelets were cool when they, like, had actual rivets.


Kinda like today. Still riveting.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> OMG. Can't stop laughing at Grand Tour.
> 
> First episode of Season 2, they do a hill climb event in Switzerland, to compare a Lamborghini, the new Acura NSX, and an all-electric "supercar", the Rimac Concept One, from Croatia, which claimed to be the world's fastest accelerating electric car.
> 
> ...


SeaDweller. Not Submariner, rookie. If date without cyclops didn't give it away, the word "seadweller" on dial should've.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> We're doing mobile phone analogies now?
> 
> Fine.
> 
> ...


I aint got no time fo dat.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> SeaDweller. Not Submariner, rookie. If date without cyclops didn't give it away, the word "seadweller" on dial should've.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you had no f**ks to start, and someone asked you for a f**k, how many f**ks could you give?

Zero.

Zero f**ks.


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> I can't please everyone. I'm not pizza.


As a father of 3, I can assure you that even pizza doesn't please everyone..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tc3 said:


> As a father of 3, I can assure you that even pizza doesn't please everyone..


There are half a dozen decent-to-outstanding pizza places within a mile of our house. We know the owners of two of them. One of them is the son of the guy who gave me my first job thirty years ago.

My sons like to order from Domino's Pizza, or as I call it, Diarrhea Broken Toilet.

There's no accounting for taste.


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

docvail said:


> I never said "abuse". Your words, not mine.
> 
> Read my post above, with the summary dialogue.
> 
> ...


My point is more a case of i dont actually see people arguing with you on here about "why not" and yet you mention people do just that, i assume you get it elsewhere. most of what i see on here is

"are you thinking of doing this"
"no...and heres why"
"gutted, but fair enough, fingers crossed one day something will change"


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

The part I don't understand is why so many of the sub models are never re-made once the first batch has sold out.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Avo said:


> The part I don't understand is why so many of the sub models are never re-made once the first batch has sold out.


Stay tuned.


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

chris has said before he only goes ahead if he thinks he can sell what ever number of them so i assume those not made again didnt sell fast enough


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

KiwiWomble said:


> My point is more a case of i dont actually see people arguing with you on here about "why not" and yet you mention people do just that, i assume you get it elsewhere. most of what i see on here is
> 
> "are you thinking of doing this"
> "no...and heres why"
> "gutted, but fair enough, fingers crossed one day something will change"


My point was, I resent this sort of characterization:



KiwiWomble said:


> there one factor you didn't mention in you're *rant *about people asking for different things...some of us WANT TO BUY FROM YOU BECAUSE WE LIKE WHAT YOU'RE DOING but don't have the funds to buy several watches and so are looking for our perfect one...one factor in the list of want for that perfect watch is the NTH logo on it.
> 
> for me it would be a 40/38mm GMT
> 
> ...


No one can hear my tone. You're reading typed words, not hearing my voice.

And yet, many assume I'm "angry" and call my posts "rants". People tell me to "chill".

That's like telling someone who isn't yelling to stop yelling, telling someone who's calm to calm down, saying someone who isn't defensive to stop being defensive. It's gaslighting and it's insulting.

Seriously? People can't read more than two lines of text without making an ad hominem attack, which is what that is, calling my post a rant. It's a way to dismiss the validity of what I say by trying to portray me as "angry" and "ranting".

The truth is those people just don't like the fact that I'm willing to speak up and defend my own opinions and reasoning. As soon as the logic is too much, they say I'm ranting, and posting walls of text.

Eff that. You want the debate? I'll debate. Argue the merits, not the man. I don't go around posting anti-38mm rants in "Why all the big watches" threads. I'm here, every day, responding to whatever topics people want to throw at me. No topic is off limits.

Search this thread for "38mm". Two pages of results going back almost two years. Search "GMT". Three pages, going back more than two years. Search "ceramic". Search "chrono".

Most brand owners pretend they'll consider what you say, then ignore it and do whatever they want. I actually do consider it, all of it, but I have to reject some of it. Search "bigger". People asked for a bigger Sub, going back two years. I listened. We're developing a bigger sub.

But people do argue with me, constantly, when they don't like my response. Ceramic bezel inserts, GMT's, auto-chronos, smaller sizes, bronze, titanium, CNC machined end-links, what is or isn't a defect, fit and finish, etc, etc, etc. Every topic has been raised, repeatedly.

I don't lose patience with any of it. People lose patience with me. It's not enough that I say "no current plans, maybe in the future." Nope, not good enough. I have to make it now. No explanation for why I won't will suffice for some folks.

If I wasn't willing to entertain these topics, repeatedly, why am I here every day? Let's not pretend I go off every time any one asks me anything.

I can't think of a single topic which hasn't been the subject of debate, and when called for, I offer a well-reasoned response. And when they don't like my reasoning, they sometimes get pissed off, and become haters and trolls. They say I'm a jerk.

Really? Is the lawyer who corrects you when you're wrong about the law a jerk? How about the doctor who tells you to lose weight before you develop diabetes? At what point do people understand I actually know what I'm doing better than the people telling me what I ought to do, just like the lawyer and doctor are experts on their subject matter?

This is supposed to be a hobby, right? It's supposed to be fun. People take it way too seriously, if they're getting pissed off at me for not making their dream watch, because my business has to support a family.

If I say "no", there's a reason. If you need to hear it, I'll give it to you.

There are certain phrases WIS use which are in fact BS - "I'd buy one right now" being among them. When I hear BS, I call BS. That's part of my brand. Don't ask me to stop doing the very thing which got me to the dance.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> The part I don't understand is why so many of the sub models are never re-made once the first batch has sold out.


It's okay to not understand. I could explain, but...wall of text.


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

docvail said:


> My point was, I resent this sort of characterization:
> 
> No one can hear my tone. You're reading typed words, not hearing my voice.
> 
> ...


that's my point...i don't...and almost no one else does either. people tent to ask a question which you answer with a good explanation of your reasoning, they say thanks anyway and you start arguing with them.

76 posts mentioning 38mm out of 10,747 doesnt exactly seem like a huge argument...and several of those are just epople mentioning the CW 38mm, hence my suggestion there are comments we dont see here

too clarify, i have no suggestions or critiques on your business, you seem to be doing very well and seem to have a good reason for everything you've done, hence why i'd like to buy one of your watches. Any preference i have in the next watch i buy is only that...my preference, its not a critique on your business. i think people like me simple ask things about what might be coming so we dont miss out, hoping the next time we ask we get a "stay tuned" or a "you never know"


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

^ you're a tenacious one, but it keeps the thread going


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> My point was, I resent this sort of characterization:
> 
> No one can hear my tone. You're reading typed words, not hearing my voice.
> 
> ...


So now I have to lose weight? I didn't think you were a real doc, Doc.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> ....
> 
> I don't understand why anyone would come into this thread, read my posts, and then complain about their tone or length.
> 
> ...


Im not so active here recently, but always enjoy coming back to this thread and having a good chuckle. It never fails to deliver. That above is so true. It's true.

I mean, i can understand why anybody might feel a little overrun by your WOTs, especially when new to that specific area of 71 right here 

Keep going. Just keep going

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

I needle ya about the Walls o' Text, Chris, but I love 'em. Wouldn't hang in this thread if I felt otherwise.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

The Watcher said:


> View attachment 13905613


Nice strap!


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I do love a basic 3-hander!!!!!!










I would love to see one with an NTH logo and nuclear lume that is also super slim, but for now this one meets my needs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Yes. 3 hands are good, even when cross-posted.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Doc, ol’ buddy, my Dad likes to say that if you walk into a room, and 9 out of 10 tell you your drunk, you may as well lie down. 

Your tone may just be more evident than you suppose. 

But hey, 9 out of 10 of us like it that way. And we love the 1 who comes along to stir the pot. Every Johnny needs his Ed. 

Aa for the 1, there’s a saying for him, too, but let’s keep it light today! Unless y’all want to hear it. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

hwa said:


> Doc, ol' buddy, my Dad likes to say that if you walk into a room, and 9 out of 10 tell you your drunk, you may as well lie down.
> 
> Your tone may just be more evident than you suppose.
> 
> ...


When I used to go to Philly regularly, I used to think everyone there was angry with me. Until I realized they were just from Philly. They make New Yorkers look like push-overs, by comparison. But they do make a great Cheese Steak.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> But, no one ever wants to take "no" for an answer.


Point of order: when I asked about the bezel on future Nackens, you said "no" and I took that for an answer.

That is all. You may proceed.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

hwa said:


> Kinda like today. Still riveting.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Reminds me of that joke:

"I watched a documentary on how they put airplanes together.

_It was riveting._"


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> There are half a dozen decent-to-outstanding pizza places within a mile of our house. We know the owners of two of them. One of them is the son of the guy who gave me my first job thirty years ago.
> 
> My sons like to order from Domino's Pizza, or as I call it, Diarrhea Broken Toilet.
> 
> There's no accounting for taste.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

KiwiWomble said:


> that's my point...i don't...and almost no one else does either. people tent to ask a question which you answer with a good explanation of your reasoning, they say thanks anyway and you start arguing with them.
> 
> 76 posts mentioning 38mm out of 10,747 doesnt exactly seem like a huge argument...and several of those are just epople mentioning the CW 38mm, hence my suggestion there are comments we dont see here
> 
> too clarify, i have no suggestions or critiques on your business, you seem to be doing very well and seem to have a good reason for everything you've done, hence why i'd like to buy one of your watches. Any preference i have in the next watch i buy is only that...my preference, its not a critique on your business. i think people like me simple ask things about what might be coming so we dont miss out, hoping the next time we ask we get a "stay tuned" or a "you never know"


Fair enough. Point taken.

Just for clarity's sake, I'm not angry. For fairness's sake, I do admit sometimes I offer the explanation without being prompted. It's not because I feel that there was already an argument, usually it's to head off the argument I feel coming, based on past experience. Other times, it's because I figure people appreciate hearing more than a simple "no", which I sincerely fear would be perceived as rude, and I don't want to be rude.

All that said - yes, in theory, I could just answer questions with less detail, avoid debate, accept compliments graciously, and offer platitudes rather than being completely honest, just as most other brand representatives/brand owners do.

But, I truly suck at all that. I think we can all agree on this, yes? I'm addicted to detail, I give great argument, I'm tragically incapable of accepting any compliments, and I'm not deft enough to effectively deploy platitudes.

If I tried to do all that, I'd fail, in epic fashion.

At every point in my life when I tried to be like "normal" people, it's been a disaster. I had to accept my profound character flaws, and work around them, like old sports cars without synchros in the transmission - you grind gears until you learn to match revs by heel-and-toeing (sorry, still binge-watching Grand Tour, you'll be getting automotive analogies for quite a while, I suspect).

I wish I was normal. I have normal relatives who are uber-successful people. My cousin makes obscene money, his wife is super-model attractive, his kids are straight-A students and all-american athletes, he's good-looking, everyone loves him.

You wouldn't bother to watch what he does or have him narrate as he does it. You'd be bored to tears.

I quit a job making obscene money, my wife often threatens to kill me in my sleep, my kids seem determined to waste their natural talents, I struggle to weigh less than livestock, and even my "friends" will tell you I'm an irredeemable a-hole. I may be "on the spectrum". It wouldn't surprise me at all.

Trust me, the show isn't me being like everyone else. The show is me crashing around, knocking over furniture, injuring myself, then miraculously sticking the landing.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> Fair enough. Point taken.
> 
> Just for clarity's sake, I'm not angry. For fairness's sake, I do admit sometimes I offer the explanation without being prompted. It's not because I feel that there was already an argument, usually it's to head off the argument I feel coming, based on past experience. Other times, it's because I figure people appreciate hearing more than a simple "no", which I sincerely fear would be perceived as rude, and I don't want to be rude.
> 
> ...


That's why we like you. 

Sent from my Commodore 64


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Thanks to everyone in the thread, and Doc as master of ceremonies, for making this hobby more fun.

There's a design sense, attitude, backstory, and WIS-ness to it all that explain why I rep three NTHs (and have owned several more) and champion the brand.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Everyone should hug Doc when they see him. :-!








And then whisper their awesome new watch design ideas in his ear. ;-)


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

mplsabdullah said:


> Everyone should hug Doc when they see him. :-!
> 
> And then whisper their awesome new watch design ideas in his ear. ;-)


Apparently you better hug him now while you can. Poor man looks like a twig, wasting away to nothing.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

Agent Sands said:


> Nice strap!


Thanks. that is the wild weekend look - this watch lends itself to strap versatility with the drilled lugs (thanks doc!)

This is my more typical, buttoned down weekday look:


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Another very nice strap!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Rhorya said:


> Apparently you better hug him now while you can. Poor man looks like a twig, wasting away to nothing.


S'true, Doc's but a mere shadow of his former self.......

It'll all work out okay tho' coz when he gets the obligatory carb craving again, he'll be back to looking like the W.O.T. that we all know and love.........


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

So it doesnt look like theres been any discussion of the Nazario Azzurro, at least that my search pulled up. I just came back to the forums (took a break to try to relieve temptation but sort of failed at that with 4 pieces on preorder now from that timespan, including the azzurro lol) 
It's sort of hard to tell based on renders/ single photos as always, but what sort of blue is it? 
The dial looks like scorpene super bold blue but the bezel looks like it could be sort of towards a NMB color with a little bit of a greenish tint (which looks really good). Either one would be fine by me, obviously.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

skuzapo said:


> So it doesnt look like theres been any discussion of the Nazario Azzurro, at least that my search pulled up. I just came back to the forums (took a break to try to relieve temptation but sort of failed at that with 4 pieces on preorder now from that timespan, including the azzurro lol)
> It's sort of hard to tell based on renders/ single photos as always, but what sort of blue is it?
> The dial looks like scorpene super bold blue but the bezel looks like it could be sort of towards a NMB color with a little bit of a greenish tint (which looks really good). Either one would be fine by me, obviously.


"The renders are accurate" is probably all you'll get for now


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

It's probably purple green irl.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

It's actually a Vantablue[SUP]TM[/SUP] dial.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skuzapo said:


> So it doesnt look like theres been any discussion of the Nazario Azzurro, at least that my search pulled up. I just came back to the forums (took a break to try to relieve temptation but sort of failed at that with 4 pieces on preorder now from that timespan, including the azzurro lol)
> It's sort of hard to tell based on renders/ single photos as always, but what sort of blue is it?
> The dial looks like scorpene super bold blue but the bezel looks like it could be sort of towards a NMB color with a little bit of a greenish tint (which looks really good). Either one would be fine by me, obviously.


TL; DR - The colors we specified are exactly the same as the Scorpene Blue.

That said...

1. Sometimes we specify something for production, and what we get is slightly different than what we expect.

It happens. It's among the reasons I don't want to do pre-orders any more, if we can avoid it. It's also why I tell people who don't like to buy from 3D illustrations to wait for the real pics to start rolling in, but with the caveat that if it sells out in pre-order, you're SOL.

So maybe consider buying it, and if you don't like it, return for refund, or flip for profit.

2. The color fade is air-brushed, by hand.

Literally, every single dial is a unique, one-of-a-kind production. Not only can we not guarantee every dial will look the same (and so even if we gave you photos, it's totally possible yours would look slightly different), we can't even guarantee whoever airbrushes the dials will do them the same way as a previous model (in this case, the Scorpene Blue).

3. The bezel inserts are PVD/DLC.

The plating vendor doesn't use standard color specs like RGB or Pantone, the way we do for dials. They gave me a book with samples, each with their own unique name and number - IP 201 Dark Blue, IP 202 Light Blue, as two examples.

This prevents us from being able to specify what color the bezel insert ends up being, or even knowing exactly what color IP 201 Dark Blue looks like when we try to illustrate using RGB or Pantone colors. They don't tell us, "IP 201 is equivalent to Pantone 2855, or RGB 180, 56, 2." They just expect us to look at the sample in their book and know - that's the blue.

I literally - not figuratively - have spent hours holding watches up to my computer monitor, and comparing them to color swatches on screen, to try to get our illustrations to accurately depict the appearance of bezel insert colors as they catch the light, and lume colors (where, again, we just get Swiss Tritec's own color codes, not any indication of what those colors equate to in Pantone or RGB).

The plating colors can vary, not just from one production to the next, but from one insert to the next, though usually, the variation is slight. We've compared spare inserts to assembled pieces, and you can see the difference.

4. Pigment colors can vary.

Whether the dials are pad-printed or painted, colors can vary from one batch to the next, and sometimes, from one dial to the next within the same production run. Blame the companies that make the inks and paints.

---

We put a lot of effort into providing images which are fair representations of the product. If you get a watch, and you don't like how it looks, don't wear it. Put it right back in the box, and send it back for a refund.

The consensus always seems to be that reality is better, but I think we're getting pretty good with the 3D's...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I literally - not figuratively - have spent hours holding watches up to my computer monitor, and comparing them to color swatches on screen, to try to get our illustrations to accurately depict the appearance of bezel insert colors as they catch the light, and lume colors (where, again, we just get Swiss Tritec's own color codes, not any indication of what those colors equate to in Pantone or RGB).


Don't bother. Difference between reflective (sample in hand, solid color tint) vs. transmissive (off the screen, RGB) colors, metallic and textured vs. flat colors, and color calibration of your monitor vs. anyone else's monitor. Close is as good as you can hope for. I know, I know, people expect color IRL to exactly match what they see on screen, but they are ignorant, unlearned, and probably smell bad, too.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> Don't bother. Difference between reflective (sample in hand, solid color tint) vs. transmissive (off the screen, RGB) colors, metallic and textured vs. flat colors, and color calibration of your monitor vs. anyone else's monitor. Close is as good as you can hope for. I know, I know, people expect color IRL to exactly match what they see on screen, but they are ignorant, unlearned, and probably smell bad, too.


You don't even know.

We (two of my retailers and I) recently had an interesting evening dealing with an...uhm..._interesting_ customer, who all three of us dealt with on the same night, when he lost his mind.

Among other complaints, he convinced himself that the dial of the Nacken Modern Blue he bought from one retailer was a different blue than the dial of the other Nacken Modern Blue he bought from the other retailer, and/or one or both were different than the colors he'd seen in "pics online", by which I understood him to mean other people's pics, not ours.

He sent a side-by-side pic, complaining that the blue on one isn't as vibrant as what he expected, or as vibrant as the other. He says he loves the blue on the with-date, but the no-date was disappointing...









I mean...maybe I need to get my eyes checked, but...I can't detect any difference there, much less enough to say one is vibrant and the other isn't.

As for comparing them to pics online - different lights, cameras, filters, screens, etc, etc, etc. What am I supposed to do? Did you look at the colors of the actual pic on the website where you actually bought the watch? You did? Really? Because...









When we sent the first samples out for review Victor Marks said the dial was BLACK. He said it was the same as the Nacken Modern Black. I had to send him a side-by-side to show that it was actually blue, albeit a very low saturation blue. It's Pantone 7547 C. Here it is on the Pantone color wheel - low saturation, very dark, not at all vibrant...









Believe it or not, THAT's the color we specified for the 3D illustration above, and I can show you pics posted online where it looks EXACTLY like that, but also much darker, or much lighter. We've made more of that version than any of the others, by a country mile. There are more pics of it posted online than any others. No way we're off so much that you're shocked on delivery.

Judge for yourselves - https://www.google.com/search?q=nac...hOAKHVkdBrcQ_AUIDygC&biw=1280&bih=921#imgrc=_

He asked one of the retailers to give him my "personal email" address. The retailer called me on the phone, and said (and I quote), "I'm not signing my own death warrant by giving this guy your email. I know how that will end."

He contacted us through the website, listed his complaints, and demanded resolution.

I told him to send both back for a refund. There's your resolution.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

To add to the above - yes, I fully realize the 3D is a brighter blue.

This is the EXACT same 3D model, using different lighting settings:

View attachment 13907995


The image here is actually the one available when he bought his watch. We updated the images when Rusty got an upgrade to his illustration software, and could manipulate the light settings.

These are more images, same model, just run at different times, with slightly different settings, or in a slightly different position. All of these have the correct Pantone color code specified for the dial...

View attachment 13908001


View attachment 13908005


View attachment 13908011


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

This is the exact answer I was hoping to get and no such thing as TLR for me, I like learning about processes (real processes, the ones involving spending hours on what any sane person would probably consider fool's errands, not the glossed over ones) and as always the renders are excellent, with the only limiting factor being as you note, in a good render as in real life, if you change the angle by a few degrees or the specular/diffuse components the whole appearance changes, before you even get to the screen you display it on. That's part of the fun for me. And why every watch I've bought lately is a preorder, it's like I get myself a present a few months later and it's still a little bit of a surprise lol.
Now that you mention there being a fade it's even more exciting (I like colorful watches, and always thought it would be suited to the offbeat cali dial feel)


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> True story (hand to God, this happened)...the people involved shall remain unnamed, to protect both the innocent and the guilty, alike.
> 
> When I was in Hong Kong last year, I heard the owner of a business which is much more successful than mine was around. I suggested to some other brand owners I was with that we should go and meet him, but no one else wanted to go, so I went by myself.
> 
> ...


Stan?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Stan?


Me: "I want to leave names out of it."

You: "Was it ______?"










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> View attachment 13907883
> 
> 
> I mean...maybe I need to get my eyes checked, but...I can't detect any difference there, much less enough to say one is vibrant and the other isn't.


I took color sample from the same spot near the 9 minute marker on each dial.

Left:








Right:








Clearly a QC failure. </sarcasm>


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

^^FWIW, I see a "difference", but it's clearly due to non-uniform lighting. I mean, if something as small as a slight color diff is enough not to like something, online purchasing is not for you. I recently got a watch (~$200) with the wrong handset and it wasn't enough for me to return it as not liking it (thomaybe that's a more extreme example).

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

New shoes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

And again, this is why I  when someone complains self-righteously re: Doc and friends here or elsewhere.

With whom else can you watch geek out this hard, based on essentially the question, "Hey, what kind of blue is that new Nazario?"

Not a blog post. Not a website article. Just impassioned, detailed, sourced forum postings, and some (often times much lazier or one-off) community back and forth.

IMO, it's reasonable for Doc to be self-righteous around these parts. Dude owns and operates his own watch company that has longevity and fans. Plus he irreverently counterbalances it with warmth, genuineness, passion, extraordinary sharing, and the like.

Call it fanboy-ism. I experience it as lively WIS learning and brotherhood akin to any of the great threads (e.g., BSH, for which there is now a palpable link between the two).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> When I used to go to Philly regularly, I used to think everyone there was angry with me. Until I realized they were just from Philly. They make New Yorkers look like push-overs, by comparison. *But they do make a great Cheese Steak.*


You are, of course, referring to *Pat's*.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Geno's Steaks rules!


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Y'all are all wrong. It's all about Steve's Prince of steaks. Don't fall for the media's hype game.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Pats and Genos both use horse meat. Doc tenderizes it with his fists after he gets done reading complaints about the phantom date click. :-d


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Everybody in Philly and its suburbs knows that the best cheese steaks are found at a no-name hole-in-the-wall neighborhood joint, not at one of those touristy joints.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

I don't know. One time I had the best cheesesteak ever at this little cart next to the Liberty Bell. The food poisoning that came later was unrelated. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Unless any of those steaks have got eye-melting lume, I just ain't interested...........









Cheers,

Alan

P.S. - Ease up on the food-speak guys, have some sympathy for those that are willfully doing without........ 

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

There's this joint on the south side of Rte 202 where it's divided at the DE/PA line that served me a 12" Cheesesteak that I thought would kill me. It was great going down, but my body went on strike for the next 36 hours before punishing me. Didn't have another cheesesteak for about 8 years after that one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

In the city, I like Ishkabibble's on South Street, across the street and half a block East of Jim's, which is the worst, and a total tourist trap.

Ishkabibble's is a literal hole in the wall - there are no tables, just two counters, the longer of which is only about 8 inches wide, and only seats 5-6 people. Most people just order through the window and eat while standing on the street.

That said, I've had one cheesesteak from a food truck in the city, and it was surprisingly good. Not Ishkabibble's good, but good for being cooked on something with wheels.

I'm not a huge fan of either Pat's or Geno's, but if I gotta go to one, I think I like Geno's better.

For those who have never been or don't know, those two have the most heated rivalry in all of food service. They literally face each other at the same narrow intersection of 9th and Passayunk in South Philly:









I'm pretty sure Geno's was the place Bianca and Donny went in the movie "Creed". Fun fact, my brother tends bar at Johnny Brenda's, in Fishtown, the club where Donny found Bianca singing.

Outside the city, if you're in Delco ("Delaware County"), it's Thunderbird or GTFO. It's worth the drive, if you're anywhere close.

Restaurants in Broomall PA: The Original Thunderbird

They made the Best of PA bucket list - https://www.paeats.com/feature/cheesesteaks-in-pa-bucket-list/

Family owned since 1956.

Current owner/operator Billy Greco Jr. is the grandson of the founder, and son of the guy who gave me my first job, the late Bill Sr.

I was 15 or 16 when I started working there. The old man (Billy's grandfather) must have been in his 80's or 90's, and was supposed to be retired, but he'd still come in to putz around in the kitchen and get in our way. He gave zero f**ks.

I had no idea what was happening the first time he came in after I started - just some old man barging in to make himself a sandwich. I never heard him speak a word of English, he'd just bark orders in Italian.

No, I don't speak Italian.

Billy's younger brother Mike (a huge Oris fan, by the way) owns the pizza shop I mentioned earlier, New Wayne Pizza, less than a mile from where I live now, and I graduated high school with his youngest brother (there are four), Tommy (seen here, right, with Billy, left):









Billy buys so much top-grade steak that his supplier can't supply anyone else in the immediate area, and he only uses rolls from Philadelphia's famous Amoroso bakery, the gold standard in hoagie/cheesesteak rolls.









You want to know where to get good cheesesteaks, you ask someone who grew up here.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

As a former Delco resident, yes, Thunderbird is aces.


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

I wonder how often these cheesesteak shops get asked to make an 11 inch or 13 inch version to accommodate people with slightly smaller or larger stomachs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sussa said:


> I wonder how often these cheesesteak shops get asked to make an 11 inch or 13 inch version to accommodate people with slightly smaller or larger stomachs.


You win the internet!

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seriously, though, my ideal size is 7 inches.

Holy crap - that's also my wrist size!

I see a fat government grant in my future, to do research into the wrist-size vs ideal cheesesteak size correlation...


Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Thunderbird is very good indeed. The best in Chester county are at Ron's original in lionville.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

According to Food Network's Alton Brown the best cheesesteak is REALLY south of Philly

https://www.facebook.com/altonbrown...now-in-atlanta-fredsmeatbre/1344779482218323/


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

The Nacken blue's color is HUGELY dependent on what kind of light is on it and how much. It wasn't quite the right blue that I was looking for, which is why mine has moved on and my Huldra hasn't. It strikes me as odd though that you could like one and not another identical one. I bet if you put those two date/no-dates directly next to each other, they would be indistinguishable. The only difference I could tell in that photo was the color of the light.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Just for the sake of pointing it out...

You can't very well state this:


docvail said:


> That said...
> 
> 4. Pigment colors can vary.
> 
> *Whether the dials are pad-printed or painted, colors can vary from one batch to the next, and sometimes, from one dial to the next within the same production run.* Blame the companies that make the inks and paints.


And then have an issue with this:


docvail said:


> ...he convinced himself that *the dial of the Nacken Modern Blue he bought from one retailer was a different blue than the dial of the other Nacken Modern Blue he bought from the other retailer*, and/or one or both were different than the colors he'd seen in "pics online", by which I understood him to mean other people's pics, not ours.


Especially since we're talking date vs. no-date runs. And after talking at length about differences between colors where lighting, photography, and electronic representation is concerned. Maybe the customer's photo just isn't showing the difference on your screen like they are seeing IRL.

I just visited a printing plant that specializes in color component jobs. We had an interesting discussion with his prepress expert regarding what people send for files and what they see in proofs. Different proofing processes -- Fuji dot-for-dot proofs, Epson digital, soft PDF proofs, press proofs, etc. Also, what a competent press-person can do on-press as the job is printing to push color levels one way or another. Ultimately, for the kind of books we publish, we don't need high end or press proofs -- we are not publishing lipstick ads, and skin-tone is usually not critical; we're not Nat Geo. Color is just not that critical for us, and besides, in all manufacturing, there are tolerances, which also apply to colors and color ranges over a run of anything to which color is applied.

So pretty much, still this:


docvail said:


> ...I told him to send both back for a refund. There's your resolution.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheJohnP said:


> According to Food Network's Alton Brown the best cheesesteak is REALLY south of Philly
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/altonbrown...now-in-atlanta-fredsmeatbre/1344779482218323/


According to Watchuseek's docvail, Alton Brown is a big poopy-head.

He's wrong. I've tried cheesesteaks in many places outside Philly. Many were admirable efforts given the available materials, but the keys to making the best are ingredients and technique. The technique can migrate anywhere, but the ingredients are best here, at ground zero for cheesesteaks.

It's not that you can't get good quality meat or bread somewhere else. Of course you can.

But if you want clam chowder in a bread bowl, you get the best along the northern California coast, where the alkalinity of the water west of the Rocky Mountains makes better sourdough bread, and the clams are fresh from the ocean. I could get clam chowder in a bread bowl in Philly, but it's just not the same as it is getting it on Fisherman's Wharf in Monterey.

It's the same thing with cheesesteaks. Because they come from here, the "right" meat and bread are here. It may be good quality meat and bread elsewhere, but it's not the "right" meat and bread, guaranteed.

Those may be good sandwiches, but they're not the best cheesesteak.

That guy needs a checkup from the neck-up.

*TRUE STORY - *

A guide to Pennsylvania's iconic dish ? the Philly cheesesteak - Lifestyle - Flavored Nation - New York, NY









And then, the punch-line...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> Just for the sake of pointing it out...
> 
> You can't very well state this:
> 
> ...


The colors can vary SLIGHTLY, if and when they do.

*Is it at all possible he got two watches from the same production, where the two dials were slightly different colors? *

Yes.

*Is it possible the colors were different enough to notice? *

Doubtful. Extremely doubtful.

*Is it possible the colors were not just different enough to notice, but different enough to say one was "vibrant", and the other, not so much, when the specified color for both is the opposite of "vibrant"?*

No. No it is not.

*Am I going to entertain the idea of stocking infinite replacement parts for every component, so that we can swap dials, bezel inserts and handsets an infinite number of times, until the most OCD of customers is satisfied that he hasn't gotten a "defect"?*

GTFO.

It ain't that kind of party, and I ain't that kind of DJ.

You get the watch, you look at the watch, inside the house, outside in the sun, under a microscope, under a blanket with a flashlight, whatever you want, but you only have two options - accept as-is or return for refund (if whatever it is you're complaining about is within QC standards) or replacement (if we missed something in QC that is not within standards).

And once you accept it, and start wearing it, a return for refund or replacement is no longer an option, and the warranty only covers mechanical issues arising from parts failure or incorrect assembly, not stuff which was visible on delivery.

"Replace this, that, and the other for me" is not an option.

It's a cry for help.

You don't want a watch. You want a relationship.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You don't want a watch. You want a relationship.


I'm guessing here -- bear with me -- it's a long shot here -- but I'm thinking that Doc doesn't want a relationship with an OCD guy like that.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> View attachment 13910091
> 
> 
> You want to know where to get good cheesesteaks, you ask someone who grew up here.


Thank God, the peppers are on the side.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Truth - 99% to 99.75% of watch geeks are normal enough that I can deal with them.

That's not an exaggeration, or at least, it's not an exaggeration of my personal experience. I once went back and counted all the "problem customer" situations I'd ever had to that point, divided by the number of sales I'd made, and came up with the problem customer rate of 0.25%-0.5%, or, conversely, an implied customer happiness rate of 99.5%-99.75%.

Something's gone on recently, leading to an increase in the "go away, I mean it" scenarios, so I'm dropping the lower end of the happiness rate range down to an even 99%.

But, even with such high happiness / low "you're out of your mind" rates, the numbers are high enough that I'm dealing with 10-12 loons every year, and I'm just not equipped with the compassion or patience to mollycoddle them. 

I don't molly. I don't coddle. I sure as $hlt don't mollycoddle.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

92gli said:


> Thunderbird is very good indeed. The best in Chester county are at Ron's original in lionville.


When I lived in Chester County, my go-to spot for a cheesesteak was the Pepper Mill in West Chester.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Thank God, the peppers are on the side.


No lie - my wife orders her cheesesteaks with fried onions, fried mushrooms, and - wait for it - mayonnaise.

I told my Dad that just this week, and he actually paused to consider whether I'd made a mistake marrying her.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Mayo?!

Blasphemy.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> No lie - my wife orders her cheesesteaks with fried onions, fried mushrooms, and - wait for it - mayonnaise.
> 
> I told my Dad that just this week, and he actually paused to consider whether I'd made a mistake marrying her.


And when my wife first told me she DIDN'T like mayo, I had second thoughts about MY decision.

Now, out of respect, I wouldn't do that to a cheesesteak - especially a bread-less one, thanks to Mr Celiac.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Double......


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Truth - 99% to 99.75% of watch geeks are normal enough that I can deal with them.
> 
> That's not an exaggeration, or at least, it's not an exaggeration of my personal experience. I once went back and counted all the "problem customer" situations I'd ever had to that point, divided by the number of sales I'd made, and came up with the problem customer rate of 0.25%-0.5%, or, conversely, an implied customer happiness rate of 99.5%-99.75%.
> 
> ...


A few things. First, I use to think I had more problem clients than I actually do. I started actively terminating difficult clients a while back. I have now fired around 22 clients over the last year. In that same time period, I had around 10,000 active clients.....doing the math , only 0.22 percent reached "fireable" status. Second, every single staff member has been very gratified by the firing. Third.....the demographics aren't what I expected at all. Fourth, I'll never deal with a crappy client ever again. It's very cathartic. I think it has salvaged my career for me.....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> A few things. First, I use to think I had more problem clients than I actually do. I started actively terminating difficult clients a while back. I have now fired around 22 clients over the last year. In that same time period, I had around 10,000 active clients.....doing the math , only 0.22 percent reached "fireable" status. Second, every single staff member has been very gratified by the firing. Third.....the demographics aren't what I expected at all. Fourth, I'll never deal with a crappy client ever again. It's very cathartic. I think it has salvaged my career for me.....


The difference is you deal with people who like dogs and cats - mostly normal people.

I mean, except for the ones with cats.

I deal with watch geeks. Let's all acknowledge that this hobby seems to attract a certain percentage of..._interesting_ peeps.

I'm actually amazed my numbers are what they are. I suspect I probably benefit from some self-selection bias, wherein the guys who decide not to buy from me because they think I'm a jerk are more likely to be the same guys who'd end up in that group of problem cases.

When I compare numbers with my peers, I get the sense they see a higher percentage of problem cases than I do. They tell me they're creating good will by appeasing the more demanding types. I tell them they're just encouraging those guys to be more demanding, and attracting more customers just like them.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> No lie - my wife orders her cheesesteaks with fried onions, fried mushrooms, and - wait for it - mayonnaise.
> 
> I told my Dad that just this week, and he actually paused to consider whether I'd made a mistake marrying her.


Your wife's and your progeny (the Domino's thing) culinary idiosyncrasies must surely challenge your sanity on a regular basis.
I can maybe see fried onions and/or mushrooms, i.e. sauteed. But mayo, hell no!
Might be going to New Castle in the spring. Any chance some of that Philly goodness drifted downstream?


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> The difference is you deal with people who like dogs and cats - mostly normal people.
> 
> I mean, except for the ones with cats.
> 
> ...


Dude...I've been in the animal field for 29 years and one month. There's no crazier group of people on the planet, I assure you. Then, add in their concern about their baby, and the crazy gets pinned out. Trust me. If you could hear about the details of the fired clients......even still,it is a vast minority of vocal jerks.

Plus, I have determined the group of animal owners is so crazy that my sensors have become numb over the years. I have gotten rid of the upper echelon of the crazies. Tier two is next....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Your wife's and your progeny (the Domino's thing) culinary idiosyncrasies must surely challenge your sanity on a regular basis.
> I can maybe see fried onions and/or mushrooms, i.e. sauteed. But mayo, hell no!
> Might be going to New Castle in the spring. Any chance some of that Philly goodness drifted downstream?


I'm sure you can get a decent cheesesteak in Northern Delaware, but I wouldn't know where.

And yes, they do drive me nuts.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I'm relatively new to this hobby and WUS, but I've been wearing dive watches my entire life.

And I swear, some of the things that folks on here notice, or questions they ask...it absolutely boggles my mind in a not good way.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I mean seriously, how closely, how intently must you have to be looking at your watch to notice something like this?

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/uneven-lume-unqiue-cool-flip-immediately-4894699.html


----------



## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'm sure you can get a decent cheesesteak in Northern Delaware, but I wouldn't know where.
> 
> And yes, they do drive me nuts.


Claymont Steak Shop. Pickles and chips. Both are excellent in North DE area! I used to work at a pizza/cheesesteak place and a TON of people got mayo on their cheesesteaks, especially those that got the cheesesteak sub


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I’ve never had a Montreal Smoked Meat sandwich...


Just saying...



I’ve also never had a philly cheese steak sandwich... Odd, though... Edmonton.


Carry on.


Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

HammyMan37 said:


> Claymont Steak Shop. Pickles and chips. Both are excellent in North DE area! I used to work at a pizza/cheesesteak place and a TON of people got mayo on their cheesesteaks, especially those that got the cheesesteak sub


Great place!! I used to work at the Conoco-Phillips refinery in Trainer PA, and we would go to Claymont steak shop for lunch. Little baskets filled full of cheesesteak sandwich, chips and a pickle. Now I'm hungry!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Toonces said:


> I mean seriously, how closely, how intently must you have to be looking at your watch to notice something like this?
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/uneven-lume-unqiue-cool-flip-immediately-4894699.html


Was just reading that before I came here. I can see why it'd drive the .25 to .5 percent loons up the walls. Still, life is too short to worry about that, but it's long enough to worry about debating the merits of cheesesteaks with Wiz. And mayo.

EDIT: To be fair, my wife considers me part of the loon population over my *strong interest* in watches.


----------



## HammyMan37 (Apr 27, 2015)

Rhorya said:


> Great place!! I used to work at the Conoco-Phillips refinery in Trainer PA, and we would go to Claymont steak shop for lunch. Little baskets filled full of cheesesteak sandwich, chips and a pickle. Now I'm hungry!


I was wondering where the hell Trainer was and realized we just call that whooole area Marcus Hook!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I mean seriously, how closely, how intently must you have to be looking at your watch to notice something like this?
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/uneven-lume-unqiue-cool-flip-immediately-4894699.html


That's part of the problem - a lot of watch geeks think every watch should be perfect, even at high magnification, and any imperfection they find is a "defect".

It's just not so, and it drives manufacturers crazy.

Rolex uses a 3x magnification to inspect during QC. If it can't be seen at 3x, it's "not there".

Most of the complaints we're getting now need 10x magnification to see, which only exacerbates the difficulty in responding to them. If you can see something with the naked eye, at arm's length, you'd see it as soon as you open the box and look at the watch. But these guys don't see anything wrong at first, only after they've been wearing the watch, then decided to put it under high magnification, and insist whatever they find needs to be sorted out under warranty.

That's 90% of the problem cases now - guys who want us to fix stuff they don't like after they've been wearing the watch. Maybe 1 in 1000 watches come back immediately on delivery, because the person just didn't like it, or just wasn't satisfied, but it seems like 1 in every 100 watches we sell goes to someone who just doesn't understand why we don't let customers dictate our QC standards to us, and refuse to replace or repair whatever they don't like.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Toonces said:


> I mean seriously, how closely, how intently must you have to be looking at your watch to notice something like this?
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/uneven-lume-unqiue-cool-flip-immediately-4894699.html


Would not care about the lume plots, but I couldn't stand that chapter ring alignment.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Agent Sands said:


> When I lived in Chester County, my go-to spot for a cheesesteak was the Pepper Mill in West Chester.


I live very close to there. We patronize it on a limited basis. Do they buy quality meat? Yes. Are the cheesesteaks tasty yet slightly skimpy? Yes. Is it one of the filthiest food dispensaries I've ever been in? Yep. Is the "stoned off their friggen gourd" high school kid staff infuriating? Why yes, yes they are. They've screwed up my orders many times.

The place got famous when Ron Inverso (of the previously mentioned Ron's Original in Lionville) owned and ran it. The current owners are lucky to have inherited a reputation that is taking them years to destroy, because they clearly can't be bothered with things like replacing a few hundred dollars worth of grease covered drop ceiling tiles once a decade.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> I live very close to there. We patronize it on a limited basis. Do they buy quality meat? Yes. Are the cheesesteaks tasty yet slightly skimpy? Yes. Is it one of the filthiest food dispensaries I've ever been in? Yep. Is the "stoned off their friggen gourd" high school kid staff infuriating? Why yes, yes they are. They've screwed up my orders many times.
> 
> The place got famous when Ron Inverso (of the previously mentioned Ron's Original in Lionville) owned and ran it. The current owners are lucky to have inherited a reputation that is taking them years to destroy, because they clearly can't be bothered with things like replacing a few hundred dollars worth of grease covered drop ceiling tiles once a decade.


Everyone knows it's the grease that makes drop ceiling tiles taste so good...

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> According to Watchuseek's docvail, Alton Brown is a big poopy-head.
> 
> He's wrong. I've tried cheesesteaks in many places outside Philly. Many were admirable efforts given the available materials, but the keys to making the best are ingredients and technique. The technique can migrate anywhere, but the ingredients are best here, at ground zero for cheesesteaks.
> 
> ...


Hold on...so we're supposed to take the word of the guy who makes watches about what works for the watch business.
But NOT take the word of the guy who makes his living from food about a food item?
Alright then.

For the record, just taking the piss here.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Soo where's the best Philly vegan cheese steak 'wich?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Soo where's the best Philly vegan cheese steak 'wich?


Steak is honestly pretty hard to replicate in plant form. You're either going to get strips of Seitan, which....eehhh, or soy curls. Those are marginally better suited to the job, but as a former meat eater who's had the real thing, it's not even close to the same. When it comes to red meat substitution, you're much better off trying to duplicate hamburger - so a meatball sub instead. I don't know about Philly, but here in Portland there's a place called Brass Tacks that makes an absolutely fantastic white bean meatball vegan sub.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Pickled jackfruit (Trader Joe's) with some flavoring works decently as a meat substitute. Not sure for a cheesesteak tho?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheJohnP said:


> Hold on...so we're supposed to take the word of the guy who makes watches about what works for the watch business.
> But NOT take the word of the guy who makes his living from food about a food item?
> Alright then.
> 
> For the record, just taking the piss here.


I have no comeback. You stumped the chump.

Does that place in Atlanta deliver to Philly?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> Was just reading that before I came here. I can see why it'd drive the .25 to .5 percent loons up the walls. Still, life is too short to worry about that, but it's long enough to worry about debating the merits of cheesesteaks with Wiz. And mayo.
> 
> EDIT: To be fair, my wife considers me part of the loon population over my *strong interest* in watches.


See...maybe I just don't get it.

If there's something you can only see at high magnification, not with the naked eye, why would it drive you up the wall?

You're wearing the watch on your wrist. You look at it without magnification, from 10-15 inches away. At that distance, you can't see any of the stuff watch geeks find when they start looking at the watch under high magnification.

I get that once you do look at it up close, and you see the small imperfections, now you know they're there, but if you can't see them when you look at the watch on your wrist, why would they bother you?

That's exactly the sort of situation I have to deal with in most of these cases. If you look at any watch long enough, under high enough magnification, you're either going to find some imperfection, or imagine you do.

100% perfection and 100% uniformity can't be guaranteed with manufacturing and assembly, at any price, unless you're charging enough to throw away any component or assembly which isn't 100% perfect, and stock infinite numbers of replacements.

If people can grasp that not all mechanical movements can keep perfect time, all the time, under all conditions, and there's an acceptable range of variation, why can't they accept the fact that there's an acceptable range of variation with all the other components?


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> See...maybe I just don't get it.
> 
> If there's something you can only see at high magnification, not with the naked eye, why would it drive you up the wall?
> 
> ...


It's called Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). I think watch geeks are more likely to have it, or all have to some degree.

Sent from my Commodore 64


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Uhm. I'm not - I hope - one of those loons that criticize dial color differences across a particular product or posting threads about uneven lume.

What I do is get several watches when my wife thinks one is enough. And she sighs and says you're weird when she sees me wearing two watches at one time (just to wind them up, honest!) and asks me not to do that outside the house. What I will concede that is that I am one of the _*different*_ people that populate this website. And post non sequiturs in a failed attempt at humor. The older you get the more you realize just how different and strange we all are so it's hard to determine what is normal.

But Doc gets a good and prolonged exposure to the strange bits when selling his wares to a group of people that skew towards the OCD range. That can't be good for his mental health.

C'est la vie.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> If people can grasp that not all mechanical movements can keep perfect time, all the time, under all conditions, and there's an acceptable range of variation, why can't they accept the fact that there's an acceptable range of variation with all the other components?


Because people.

One time, in a recovery group session, we had to answer a basic question: "What's your biggest problem in life?" I answered, "Other people." This was not the correct answer...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Disneydave said:


> Pickled jackfruit (Trader Joe's) with some flavoring works decently as a meat substitute. Not sure for a cheesesteak tho?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Soy curls would work better than jackfruit in a faux cheesesteak. Jackruit is really closer to pulled pork than anything else, and it actually makes a pretty decent pulled pork style sandwich. It's a little bit like shredded chicken as well. I suppose you could try mixing it in with pasta, but I've never done that. I'm not a huge fan, the texture can be a little weird sometimes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Beating the dead horse further, Rusty pointed me to this one earlier this week.

I've discussed both QC standards and the viability of "fixing" minor variations with at least a dozen factories and watchmakers. They all essentially shake their heads and shrug. It's watch geeks and unrealistic expectations, nothing you can do.

I attempted to offer the manufacturer's viewpoint in that discussion. It was an uphill battle, but I think I changed at least a few minds.









Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I'll just leave these here.......




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Mmm. Bahia.










My new favorite with the Oberon a close second.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkND said:


> It's called Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). I think watch geeks are more likely to have it, or all have to some degree.
> 
> Sent from my Commodore 64


I don't disagree, but I think there are multiple explanations, all understandable...

1. OCD - obsessive people doing obsessive things.

2. Noobs - new to the hobby, don't yet understand what constitutes reasonable expectations.

3. Price-range jumping / Buyer's remorse - guys moving up to $500-$600 micros from $200-$300 Seikos/Citizens, expecting the angels to sing when they open the box, disappointed to find it's still just a watch. Anxiety and regret starts to take hold, and they look for imperfections to validate their feelings.

4. Black Swan effect - this is the killer, and the one that I think leads many, if not most normal people to have a hard time understanding it from the manufacturer's perspective...

I'd estimate that 99% of what we produce is close enough to say it's 100% perfect. The remaining 1% which isn't 100% perfect is off by 0.5%, so it's 99.5% perfect, and the odds are good that most people who have that 1% will never notice the 0.5% that's less than perfect.

If you look at the typical experience of a WIS, you could easily buy 50, 100, even 200 watches, and never have any reason to think any of them aren't 100% perfect.

The odds are just that much in your favor, and as such, it's entirely understandable, in fact predictable, that you'll believe perfection is a reasonable standard and expectation, and that any deviation from perfect, even 0.5%, is a "defect", and it must be corrected under warranty, even if it was visible on delivery, yet the customer missed it.

It makes total sense from a consumer's perspective. Who cares if you missed a blemish and wore it anyway? Why wouldn't the company sort it out under warranty?

But it's impossible from a manufacturer's perspective, as it means we'd have to stand prepared to replace any component or an entire assembly on customer demand, even if the component or assembly is functional, and within an unavoidable or acceptable range of variation.

Don't like the dial color? Demand we replace it. Think the bracelet or clasp has sharp edges? Demand we replace it. The hands aren't perfectly aligned? Demand we re-set them. Bezel has one marker with a small speck of something stuck in the lume? Replace the bezel insert.

It's not just those things which are in fact some degree removed from perfect, it's also those things customers might imagine are wrong. That's the logical end-point if you have to accept whatever customers decide is wrong, and let customers dictate QC standards.

The transaction would never be complete until the warranty period ends or you go out of business. For the life of the warranty, you're on the hook for unlimited replacements and repairs. That's impossible to manage. The transaction has to be complete when money is exchanged for goods and both parties accept what they received.

The only solution is to have the returns and warranty terms most companies do - anything visible and/or present on delivery is covered under the returns policy, up to the point the condition is altered, at which point, you've accepted the condition/quality; and the warranty covers only that which is not visible on delivery or parts failure.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Because people.
> 
> One time, in a recovery group session, we had to answer a basic question: "What's your biggest problem in life?" I answered, "Other people." This was not the correct answer...


Sounds very reasonable to me!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This isn't a rant. I mean it. It isn't. Consider it a combination of "progress update on the L/XL Sub", "window into my world", and related/supporting commentary on the difficulties of manufacturing, as they might relate to QC...

Here's the process so far on the L/XL sub, and where we're now "stuck"...

1. I came up with the dimensions for the new case, looking at it from the front - bezel diameter, crystal diameter, lug length, and lug width. I added the case diameter under the bezel, in case it was needed, for the next step.

2. We sent the crystal diameter, crystal shape, bezel diameter/case diameter, movement calibre, and water-resistance spec we wanted to the factory, and asked them to send us back a simplified diagram of the case internals, so we'd see how thick all the parts of the case "sandwich" (crystal, clearance, movement, spacer, clearance, caseback) need to be to hit our specs and have all the necessary clearances, which we'd need for the next step.

3. Once we got the simplified diagram back, Rusty and I went to work on the case design, making sure we maintained the total thickness for all parts assembled together, the minimum thickness for each part, and all the necessary clearances. Once our case model is "done" from our perspective, we send it back to the case factory engineers.

4. At this point, we still haven't got hands, dial or bezel designed yet, so Aaron's done next to nothing. We don't get Aaron started until we have the factory engineers proof our case design. We need them to make sure we can still hit the WR spec, and have all the clearances we need. If they have to change the crystal diameter to meet the specs, we want to know that before we get Aaron started, and before I spin my wheels looking for handsets.

The reason we do it this way is that with every previous model, the designs we came up with were radically changed between us sending them for review and getting factory proofs back. The reasons are many, but this is now our process. 

The goal is to get the engineers to approve our case design with little to no visual changes. We have them give us the thickness dimensions and case internals diagram early on in order to increase the likelihood we won't have unauthorized design changes later on.

Aaaaannnnddd...that's where we're currently "stuck".

We seem to have solved the problem of having the case re-designed because we didn't first have them tell us the minimum thicknesses. But now we're getting back into the difference between what we can do on paper, and what we can do in the real world.

The metal parts are cold-forged, and we've got a tolerance for each forged part of 0.15mm, meaning the dimensions, of everything - not just the gross part dimensions, but every surface of those parts - can be +/- 0.15mm from spec.

It's one thing to accept 21.85mm lug width in lieu of 22mm, but it's another thing when you're dealing with a chamfered surface that tapers to 0.5mm. We can draw it, but that doesn't necessarily mean we can effectively produce it with a high enough degree of uniformity in the end-results.

There's also the issue with clearances. 

We can look up the hands height on the movement, and make sure we have enough clearance for the minute hand to clear the hour markers and the seconds hand to clear the inner case wall or a raised outer section of the dial. 

But in assembly, that hands height is a bit variable, and not every hand is going to be mounted perfectly parallel to the dial, and perfectly formed (I had a recent complaint from a guy who sent me a pic showing the hour hand was very slightly twisted, like a propeller blade, so the leading edge was slightly higher than the trailing edge - no, I didn't agree it was a defect, since it wasn't affecting operation, and wasn't visible but for high magnification).

Even if the hand is mounted at precisely the right height, and it's perfectly level, apparently the fourth wheel post (the seconds hand post) can have a small bit of wobble in it, which means even a "level" hand will have some vertical travel along its length.

If the minute hand or seconds hand are mounted a little too low, or they're too far out of plane, they'll drag on the markers or some part of the case, and it's a QC fail, so a lack of adequate clearance in the design becomes an assembly and QC nightmare. 

Add in the variability of dial thickness, index thickness, movement spacer thickness, inner case wall diameter, and crystal mounting height - you see why my factory pushes back when we try to make things thinner, and why we had to fight to get the 40mm Subs case as thin as it is. 

The design of the 40mm Sub is 11.5mm thick, but you might measure one and find it's +/- 0.25mm, and it wouldn't surprise me, at all. There are at least three, maybe four parts of the case sandwich that could each add or subtract 0.1mm to the total.

We spent the last week going back and forth with the guys at our OEM (our primary vendor). They haven't even sent it to the case factory engineers yet. We're still negotiating, and most of the back-and-forth has been about two dimensions on two surfaces.

One week. Going over two dimensions, less than 1mm each.

It's not unusual. We've gotten into all kinds of esoteric topics, such as:

+ How thick the font needs to be on the bezel in order to have adequate width to lume.
+ How thick the printing on the dial needs to be if we want it lumed
+ How thick the bezel insert needs to be if we want it lumed (if it's not thick enough, the lume plots won't be deep enough).
+ The thickness of an applied index.
+ The distance between the feet on an applied index.
+ The difference in rate of expansion/contraction of the seconds hand when the tip is coated (we found that extreme temp swings can lead to the tip of the DevilRay's seconds hand curving, and dragging on the crystal, but apparently it only happens when the tip is orange, not black, as far as we can tell).
+ The difficulty in luming a sloped surface when the lume needs to be applied to the inner slope (think "stadium" or downward-sloped inner bezel) versus outer surface (think sloped outer bezel). 
+ The granularity of detail which can be achieved using high-relief stamping versus chemical etching on a caseback.
+ The granularity of detail which can be printed on a dial, using screen-printing versus pad-printing.

I'm sure there are more. Those are just the ones I can think up on the spot. You get the idea, though. Every one of those has come up in the course of solving some challenge which arose between concept and delivery or shortly thereafter. 

When the idea of "perfection" as an expectation comes up in the context of watches, these are the sorts of challenges I wish people could understand. 

Something as small as an applied index not being perfectly centered between two minute markers printed on the dial will send some guys into fits, and I'm thinking, "$hlt, bro, it's off by a hair. Why are you looking at it that closely? If you knew how hard it is to get the dial feet perfectly placed and soldered onto the bottom of that index, you'd expect them all to be off by more than that one is."


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> This isn't a rant. I mean it. It isn't. Consider it a combination of "progress update on the L/XL Sub", "window into my world", and related/supporting commentary on the difficulties of manufacturing, as they might relate to QC...
> 
> Here's the process so far on the L/XL sub, and where we're now "stuck"...
> 
> ...


Dude....god made a Planet and populated it in 7 days. What's your beef?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Jay Zuss Doc!!! ^^^ That is a head-hurting process. 

If any of you other WIS out there read the above, totally inward digest and still want to become a watchmaker...........


Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Beating the dead horse further, Rusty pointed me to this one earlier this week.
> 
> I've discussed both QC standards and the viability of "fixing" minor variations with at least a dozen factories and watchmakers. They all essentially shake their heads and shrug. It's watch geeks and unrealistic expectations, nothing you can do.
> 
> ...


This one left me shocked. Its not only about QC but also CS. Well done to the AD but the other parties should be ashamed of themselves imho.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/seikos-sla025-sbex007-pictorial-4894387.html


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Seikogi said:


> This one left me shocked. Its not only about QC but also CS. Well done to the AD but the other parties should be ashamed of themselves imho.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/seikos-sla025-sbex007-pictorial-4894387.html


Holy crap! Not only was his expectation with a Seiko diver "perfect at 6x magnification," but his idea of a satisfactory ending was for the AD to sell him a 10-year old watch they still had lying around? o|


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Seikogi said:


> This one left me shocked. Its not only about QC but also CS. Well done to the AD but the other parties should be ashamed of themselves imho.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/seikos-sla025-sbex007-pictorial-4894387.html


These are great reads, keep em coming! Makes me feel far more normal.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Uhm, yeah...reading that gave me agita. I couldn't see anything wrong with that watch, at all, even at high magnification. 

I absolutely despise the lecture on quality control from the customer who thinks they know better than the manufacturer. It's like the lecture from the cop who pulled you over. Write me a ticket, or don't, but don't stand there lecturing me because I rolled through a stop sign. 

If you're going to put it under a 10x lens, do it before you leave the AD, or as soon as the watch arrives. If the manufacturer tells you it's within spec/tolerance/standards, then it's within standards. Don't argue with them, just keep it or return it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Jay Zuss Doc!!! ^^^ That is a head-hurting process.
> 
> If any of you other WIS out there read the above, totally inward digest and still want to become a watchmaker...........
> 
> ...


To be fair, we make it more complicated than it needs to be, because we want things the way we want them. I'm certain not everyone goes to the same extremes. There are some designs I look at, and I can tell the brand delegated big chunks of the design to the factory.

Straight-up-and-down case walls without any contours to give them more character are a hallmark of what I consider "standard Hong Kong case design". They basically draw the case from the front, and extrude the 3D shape like turning a circle into a cylinder.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Uhm, yeah...reading that gave me agita. I couldn't see anything wrong with that watch, at all, even at high magnification.
> 
> I absolutely despise the lecture on quality control from the customer who thinks they know better than the manufacturer. It's like the lecture from the cop who pulled you over. Write me a ticket, or don't, but don't stand there lecturing me because I rolled through a stop sign.
> 
> If you're going to put it under a 10x lens, do it before you leave the AD, or as soon as the watch arrives. If the manufacturer tells you it's within spec/tolerance/standards, then it's within standards. Don't argue with them, just keep it or return it.


Being a manufacturer doesn't make the person automatically more knowledgeable in the field and their opinion more important. Depends on the situation. Customer could very well be an ex Seiko watch maker with tremendous insights and the person representing Seiko a beginner there. Pretty sure this wasn't the case there but its wrong to generalize here.

If those are the specs/tolerances for a 5000$ diver then its within standard as you said since the manufacturer decides on their standard. A restaurant can have sh**y food and say its within "specs", I'll stop eating there and write a negative review. If a significant number of people think the food is bad at the price asked the business will suffer.

Thank god we have a free market.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Being a manufacturer doesn't make the person automatically more knowledgeable in the field and their opinion more important. Depends on the situation. Customer could very well be an ex Seiko watch maker with tremendous insights and the person representing Seiko a beginner there. Pretty sure this wasn't the case there but its wrong to generalize here.
> 
> If those are the specs/tolerances for a 5000$ diver then its within standard as you said since the manufacturer decides on their standard. A restaurant can have sh**y food and say its within "specs", I'll stop eating there and write a negative review. If a significant number of people think the food is bad at the price asked the business will suffer.
> 
> Thank god we have a free market.


I would say at a certain point, having manufacturing experience does make someone more knowledgeable than someone without it.

It's not a matter of opinion I was speaking of. I'm talking about the guy who's bought a few watches, even a few dozen, and feels knowledgeable enough to tell me about QC standards.

I've QC'd a few thousand watches. I've made it a point to learn the QC standards used for every component and assembly, and the reasoning behind them. Our standards aren't subject to anyone's opinion. They just are what they are.

Buying a few dozen watches doesn't qualify anyone as an expert in QC standards any more than owning twenty cars in thirty years has made me an automotive engineer, or wrecking three has made me a stunt driver.

You only know what you know. A lot of guys think they know more.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

I really hope that guy doesn't stay in hotel rooms. The hotel's definition of "clean" and his definition are likely to be world's apart. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Ragl said:


> Jay Zuss Doc!!! ^^^ That is a head-hurting process.
> 
> If any of you other WIS out there read the above, totally inward digest and still want to become a watchmaker...........
> 
> ...


Yeah, Doc and this thread have very effectively killed any illusions I may have had for a second career as a micro-brand watch company owner.

I'd prefer something a little less stressful...like air traffic controller.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

There is a difference between professional QC and educated opinion. It’s about as far apart as art and science. QC is bound by tolerances to limit subjectivity, art is nearly entirely subjective. 

The cool part about items like watches, is the balance between the two paradigms. Engineering viewed subjectively.

I’ve encountered a bit of the QC brain in my career during the construction and maintenance of the industrial beast, chemical plants, refineries etc, and the QC has engineering specifications to abide by, zero leeway within established engineering tolerances. I can’t see that watch QC would be viewed any differently than a root weld inspection, or bolt up torque ratings. The ultimate exercise in futility is to argue with QC.


Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> And when my wife first told me she DIDN'T like mayo, I had second thoughts about MY decision.
> 
> Now, out of respect, I wouldn't do that to a cheesesteak - especially a bread-less one, thanks to Mr Celiac.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thats literally a bowl of meat hash. Like dog food. Goodness, Rusty, we need to figure a Celiac-approved bread substitute to get you off your knees and back on your feet. Imagine: eating a cheesesteak with all of it dumped rightthefuck into your waiting hands.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Slightly off topic, but I know there are some fans of the Nazario here.

This thread in the public forum is a great read if you haven't seen it:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/california-definitive-history-peculiar-dial-4887795.html


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

hwa said:


> rpm1974 said:
> 
> 
> > Now, out of respect, I wouldn't do that to a cheesesteak - especially a bread-less one, thanks to Mr Celiac.
> ...


Look for Against the Grain GF bread in the frozen food section--rolls, baguette, and pizza crusts. No hoagie rolls, but either the smaller rolls or a length of baguette would work for cheesesteak.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)




----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

View attachment 13916131


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)




----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Dat dial doe










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

this is turning into a...a...PHOTO...thread (gasps)


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

> dupe


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Slightly off topic, but I know there are some fans of the Nazario here.
> 
> This thread in the public forum is a great read if you haven't seen it:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/california-definitive-history-peculiar-dial-4887795.html


I skimmed the OP in that thread some time back. Possibly I missed the salient points, but my takeaway was that for all the research, nothing too definitive was determined about either the origin or purpose of the California dial, aside from the Rolex patent, which seemed to follow earlier use by other manufacturers.

Feel free to correct me. I wouldn't mind knowing the basics for certain - reason for the name, reasoning for the mix of Arabic and Roman numerals, and "inventor".

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## volthause (Oct 4, 2018)

I work in manufacturing, currently in an engineering / QA / QC role. Dealing with customer parts on a daily basis where we have to hold +/-0.0005" (0.013mm) tolerances. I'd dance a jig to only have to hold 0.15mm for a watch case. lol.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> I skimmed the OP in that thread some time back. Possibly I missed the salient points, but my takeaway was that for all the research, nothing too definitive was determined about either the origin or purpose of the California dial, aside from the Rolex patent, which seemed to follow earlier use by other manufacturers.
> 
> Feel free to correct me. I wouldn't mind knowing the basics for certain - reason for the name, reasoning for the mix of Arabic and Roman numerals, and "inventor".


That post does a great job rolling up all the various theories, with some levels of detail I've never seen.

The reason for the name is the only part that doesn't seem to have a handful of possible explanations - it was the burst of the dial's popularity in the 80s exploited/triggered by the LA dialmaker who retrofitted a bunch of watches with the newly renamed California dial. Was it the re-dials by Kirk Rich that started the trend, or was he responding to a new demand? Chicken, egg; somebody who was there would have to say.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> That post does a great job rolling up all the various theories, with some levels of detail I've never seen.
> 
> The reason for the name is the only part that doesn't seem to have a handful of possible explanations - it was the burst of the dial's popularity in the 80s exploited/triggered by the LA dialmaker who retrofitted a bunch of watches with the newly renamed California dial. Was it the re-dials by Kirk Rich that started the trend, or was he responding to a new demand? Chicken, egg; somebody who was there would have to say.


I went back and re-skimmed it, to get to that part. I think I skipped past it last time.

I think that's got to be the most likely explanation - lots of dials coming from California. I can imagine it becoming contemporaneous industry-lingo as it was happening, and getting from meaning "dials from California" to "dials that look like this are California dials" is a pretty natural evolution in the etymology.


----------



## heyitsthatguy (Sep 18, 2015)

It seems to be Commander 300 day.


----------



## heyitsthatguy (Sep 18, 2015)

Commander 300 night too. RIP my lume pip, whichever door frame it’s stuck in.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> To be fair, we make it more complicated than it needs to be, because we want things the way we want them. I'm certain not everyone goes to the same extremes. There are some designs I look at, and I can tell the brand delegated big chunks of the design to the factory.
> 
> Straight-up-and-down case walls without any contours to give them more character are a hallmark of what I consider "standard Hong Kong case design". They basically draw the case from the front, and extrude the 3D shape like turning a circle into a cylinder.


No idea whether that's actually what happened in this case, but what you're describing reminds me a lot of the Marloe Haskell. Very cool dial design with a nicely integrated date at 6, but the actual case looks like a tuna can with two Popsicle sticks glued to either end.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)




----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Steak is honestly pretty hard to replicate in plant form. You're either going to get strips of Seitan, which....eehhh, or soy curls. Those are marginally better suited to the job, but as a former meat eater who's had the real thing, it's not even close to the same. When it comes to red meat substitution, you're much better off trying to duplicate hamburger - so a meatball sub instead. I don't know about Philly, but here in Portland there's a place called Brass Tacks that makes an absolutely fantastic white bean meatball vegan sub.


I never looked too hard, but I always thought the Govinda's and the precursor to Blackbird Pizzeria (Gianna's) were neck and neck, followed by maybe Sabrina's.

Portland indeed has some good veggie/vegan eats-I felt superior to many East Coast spots I've tried.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Leekster (Aug 7, 2015)

I had a Dutch buddy and his wife over for dinner tonight and coincidently.... Seriously, I'm not making this up.

Guess which watch the Dutch guy was wearing and which one I was wearing...









Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Leekster said:


> I had a Dutch buddy and his wife over for dinner tonight and coincidently.... Seriously, I'm not making this up.
> 
> Guess which watch the Dutch guy was wearing and which one I was wearing...
> 
> ...


I'm going to guess you were wearing a Hamilton and since you're buddy is Dutch, he was wearing a Frédérique Constant.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Leekster said:


> I had a Dutch buddy and his wife over for dinner tonight and coincidently.... Seriously, I'm not making this up.
> 
> Guess which watch the Dutch guy was wearing and which one I was wearing...
> 
> ...


That's awesome. Your wives probably groaned and rolled their eyes.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Leekster (Aug 7, 2015)

docvail said:


> That's awesome. Your wives probably groaned and rolled their eyes.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


They did when they saw where we put the watches next....

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Leekster said:


> They did when they saw where we put the watches next....


Ouch!


----------



## valuedcustomer (Dec 12, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

valuedcustomer said:


> Not a sub but it is on leather
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That awkward moment when you realize you mistook the NTH thread for the BSHT thread...


----------



## valuedcustomer (Dec 12, 2017)

Oops


Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Pleased with that lume.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

valuedcustomer said:


> Oops
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


Too right.... no photo attached!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

...


----------



## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

...


----------



## Sogeha (Jul 13, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

.


----------



## Buellrider (Mar 31, 2014)

Oh snap!


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Was never here and didn't happen


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

goyoneuff said:


> ...





goyoneuff said:


> ...





Sogeha said:


> .





Buellrider said:


> Oh snap!





Jtragic said:


> ...


Looks like I missed something good... :roll:


----------



## Sogeha (Jul 13, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Looks like I missed something good... :roll:


Depends on your point of view I guess. Brother G has been up to his mischief again, but after posting we collectively felt that it may deeply offend some people and that has never been our intention.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

The paddywhack machine he goes!!

gonna get my paddle nice and hot too..



Sogeha said:


> Depends on your point of view I guess. Brother G has been up to his mischief again, but after posting we collectively felt that it may deeply offend some people and that has never been our intention.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Sogeha said:


> Depends on your point of view I guess. Brother G has been up to his mischief again, but after posting we collectively felt that it may deeply offend some people and that has never been our intention.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I hate censorship! If somebody wants to be offended, lettum be offended. Political correctness be damned.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Meanwhile, some yahoo in Philly was making some watches...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

JakeJD said:


> Meanwhile, some yahoo in Philly was making some watches...


Wiz or wizout I wonder?


----------



## Leekster (Aug 7, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> I hate censorship! If somebody wants to be offended, lettum be offended. Political correctness be damned.


I agree!

I'm very offended they thought they might offend me!

This is outrageous!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)




----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Huh?

Anyway, my still favorite NTH.

IMO it represents the essence of the brand so well: upgrade a hard/expensive-to-acquire and arguably fragile (due to era and aging) famous vintage dive watch referent with modern materials/specs, mix in some creativity, and offer it at an affordable price.

And given the history of the referent, I'm really digging it on this Navy-inspired Erika's MN strap.
















































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Deledda (Jun 15, 2014)

Rhorya said:


> Wiz or wizout I wonder?


Come on man. Wit or wit out?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> View attachment 13931177


That's my joint!

Say hello to whichever Greco brother is there today.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Deledda said:


> Come on man. Wit or wit out?


*Wit or widdout.

Put me down for widdout. They always put way too many onions, and never chop them up small enough.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> That's my joint!
> 
> Say hello to whichever Greco brother is there today.


I stopped just to take that pic for you big dog. Lol
Was on my way back from my mother's. It smelled so good outside but had a big breakfast with mom.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> I stopped just to take that pic for you big dog. Lol
> Was on my way back from my mother's. It smelled so good outside but had a big breakfast with mom.


Clearly you need to consider your priorities.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

First video review of the Odins.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Those are awesome


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Why isn't it April/May yet?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> First video review of the Odins.


Saw it in my feed this morning. I like Bruce's channel a lot. Straightforward and to the point, critical dimensions including L2L right up front, and great macro shots. Not sure where TGV went, he hasn't posted in a couple of months now.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> Saw it in my feed this morning. I like Bruce's channel a lot. Straightforward and to the point, critical dimensions including L2L right up front, and great macro shots. Not sure where TGV went, he hasn't posted in a couple of months now.


TGV was copyright-claim-bombed (over some instagram photos he added to his latest Grand Seiko videos) by some jerk who's in cahoots with TGV's youtube-competitors (archieluxury and associated "sour grapes" scum). It's laughably petty*, but resulted in youtube placing a temporary ban on TGV from any uploads or advert/view revenue. Nobody knows for sure what duration it is and whether the aforementioned competitors are pushing for yet more.

*- imagine the average contemporary "Reality TV" feuds, and it's basically that, except over who has the bigger ***** (YT viewer count), plus some unknown bad-history between TGV and some competitors.


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> First video review of the Odins.


Let it never be said that anyone makes a nicer blue watch than you.

What's the story behind some, but not all, of the new models having the stylized bezel/circle around the NTH logo?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> First video review of the Odins.


Reading the youtube comments is amusing....some guys have no clue.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

$200 max.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

yankeexpress said:


> Reading the youtube comments is amusing....some guys have no clue.


"I'd rather buy something that feels like crap, looks like crap, is impossible to flip, and is mostly made of Chinese parts... AS LONG AS IT SAYS "SWISS" ON IT!!!":roll:


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

It's funny how people some that play in the high end pricepoints fall all over themselves to buy watches that have totally fatal flaws like bracelets that don't articulate and hockey puck dimensions. Some people who play in the affordable pool want to race to the bottom... just to be right. Somebody should make a pot metal 16mm thick diver with a cardboard dial, mineral crystal, a 2824, and "swiss" printed all over it. Price it at $199 and make billions!


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

92gli said:


> "I'd rather buy something that feels like crap, looks like crap, is impossible to flip, and is mostly made of Chinese parts... AS LONG AS IT SAYS "SWISS" ON IT!!!":roll:


Most people are dumb. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## whoa (May 5, 2013)

That blue Odin is crisp! 

- whoa... Just whoa! -


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteagus said:


> Let it never be said that anyone makes a nicer blue watch than you.
> 
> What's the story behind some, but not all, of the new models having the stylized bezel/circle around the NTH logo?


Let me concoct a story before I tell it to you...

Actually, there isn't a lot to it, really.

I had a 1.0 version of the NTH logo I'd been working on for a while. It was just the 3 letters, styled to make the H look like a reverse N.

Aaron took my draft design and cleaned it up a bit, and gave it the hexagon footprint. For a short while, I think we all thought we were "done".

Then, not too much later, once we had settled on how we'd do the bezel pips on the watches, Aaron added the circle with the triangle/circle at top to the logo. It's meant to suggest the motion of the bezel rotating to a stop (in case no one realized that was the subliminal suggestion), and to echo the way we were doing the bezels on the watches, which we thought was clever.

I can't remember the precise timeline, but obviously, we must have been working with just the 3-letter version, no circle, for a while prior to that - it was on all the dials, the boxes I'd ordered, etc, but when we used the logo for the website, we added the circle.

It may be that we (or maybe just I) didn't think the with-circle version would look right on the dial, as it's not exactly symmetrical. Using it was never really discussed as an option.

But when we did the Skipjack, I wanted to give a little tip of the hat to the Rado rotating anchor logo and the red-dot of Zodiac, so we used the full logo on that model.

I think we may use it on some others, where it looks right. We've got a new design in development which uses it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> It's funny how people some that play in the high end pricepoints fall all over themselves to buy watches that have totally fatal flaws like bracelets that don't articulate and hockey puck dimensions. Some people who play in the affordable pool want to race to the bottom... just to be right. Somebody should make a pot metal 16mm thick diver with a cardboard dial, mineral crystal, a 2824, and "swiss" printed all over it. Price it at $199 and make billions!


Pricing is something I think about a lot, and when called upon, I'll discuss with others.

In my opinion, as well as my experience (in business), there's a "correct/minimum" markup from landed production costs to retail price. This is the minimum markup the manufacturers and sellers need to maintain a minimum level of profitability and deliver what customers expect.

It doesn't matter how many people/entities are involved in getting the product from the factory door to the retail floor. They all need to get paid, and every task needs to be compensated, so there's really no such thing as "cutting out the middle man".

It could be one guy doing 12 tasks or 12 guys doing one task each - it all has to be done, and paid for, or the business falls apart. Eventually, whichever task isn't compensated won't be completed. That's just human nature.

So, logically, any retail price which is set using a lower markup is too low, objectively, and any price which is higher would represent a premium the seller is charging. Whether or not they can get people to pay it, and whether or not they've earned it, is a separate consideration.

But, in my observation, most brands are typically either under-charging (often the case with micros and startups), or over-charging (i.e., charging a premium - often the case with luxury brands, or any brand spending a lot on marketing). Very few are using the "correct" markup, or hovering very close to it, give or take a little.

Consumers (especially WIS) tend to consider the lowest-priced competitor as their benchmark for "correct" pricing, and consider every brand charging more to be over-charging. So, as an example, if you can get a watch with the same specs as the NTH Subs for less, I'm over-charging, case closed.

Unfortunately, that's just not logical. If A costs more than B, it's possible B is under-priced, and the business making/selling B isn't sustainable for the long term, or cutting corners in some way.

Making price comparisons using the lowest priced competitor as a benchmark doesn't take quality into account, or design effort/cost, or the "customer experience", in which I'd include website ease of use, images, brand engagement on social media, returns/warranty policies, etc - essentially, all the things you can't include on a spec sheet, but which customers clearly care about.

I know what my costs are - production and operating costs, and I've never been more than a few dollars off when I've guessed at my competitors' costs, so I know whether or not I'm under/over-charging, as well as which brands are under- or over-charging.

I can't run my business letting the market dictate to me that I'm only allowed to charge as much as my lowest-cost competitor. That competitor either isn't providing the same value I am, or if he is, doesn't have a sustainable business. The math is the same for all of us, and it's inescapable.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep 6 today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> TGV was copyright-claim-bombed (over some instagram photos he added to his latest Grand Seiko videos) by some jerk who's in cahoots with TGV's youtube-competitors (archieluxury and associated "sour grapes" scum). It's laughably petty*, but resulted in youtube placing a temporary ban on TGV from any uploads or advert/view revenue. Nobody knows for sure what duration it is and whether the aforementioned competitors are pushing for yet more.
> 
> *- imagine the average contemporary "Reality TV" feuds, and it's basically that, except over who has the bigger ***** (YT viewer count), plus some unknown bad-history between TGV and some competitors.


That's too bad. I know some folks criticize him for going what they would say is way over the top on a watch like the Seiko SNZH, which is at least an arguable point, but some of the other stuff is just ridiculous. Also, Archieluxury is by far the most unwatchable watch channel on YouTube.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

So Doc... Rants about the Blue Alpinist, artificial scarcity, and the scalper economy seem to be all over WUS and facebook at the moment. You seem to have a pretty good handle on the economics of the watch biz. Do you have any thoughts about big brands that are capable of volume production deliberately restricting supply to drive up their prices/prestige? Are all the "limited editions" we're seeing an inevitable / necessary evil that had to happen in response to many years of overproduction?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Blue Alpinist is not scarce. You could go on ebay and buy one right now. Whether or not you want to pay market price for a low supply / high demand item is up to any potential buyer. See also: Halios Seaforth.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Blue Alpinist is not scarce. You could go on ebay and buy one right now. Whether or not you want to pay market price for a low supply / high demand item is up to any potential buyer. See also: Halios Seaforth.


You're saying it's just a tree, and that other tree was bigger.
I'm not so interested in individual trees, I'm concerned we're entering a forest. Are we in danger of this being a sustainable business model, and most desirable watches skyrocketing in price if/when production numbers are slashed?

Doc has been telling us for a while that the industry is going to change, and that the days of cheap grey market overstock items will end, because that was never sustainable. If low production volumes and high prices become the new norm, and more brands try to follow the Rolex business model (waiting lists, scalpers, etc) how will that play out?

It's at this moment that it feels real. I think we've reached the turning point.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

DP


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Pricing is something I think about a lot, and when called upon, I'll discuss with others.
> 
> In my opinion, as well as my experience (in business), there's a "correct/minimum" markup from landed production costs to retail price. This is the minimum markup the manufacturers and sellers need to maintain a minimum level of profitability and deliver what customers expect.
> 
> ...


caveat emptor as always. You get what you pay for in the end...........









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cosmodromedary said:


> So Doc... Rants about the Blue Alpinist, artificial scarcity, and the scalper economy seem to be all over WUS and facebook at the moment. You seem to have a pretty good handle on the economics of the watch biz. Do you have any thoughts about big brands that are capable of volume production deliberately restricting supply to drive up their prices/prestige? Are all the "limited editions" we're seeing an inevitable / necessary evil that had to happen in response to many years of overproduction?





mconlonx said:


> Blue Alpinist is not scarce. You could go on ebay and buy one right now. Whether or not you want to pay market price for a low supply / high demand item is up to any potential buyer. See also: Halios Seaforth.





Cosmodromedary said:


> You're saying it's just a tree, and that other tree was bigger.
> I'm not so interested in individual trees, I'm concerned we're entering a forest. Are we in danger of this being a sustainable business model, and most desirable watches skyrocketing in price if/when production numbers are slashed?
> 
> Doc has been telling us for a while that the industry is going to change, and that the days of cheap grey market overstock items will end, because that was never sustainable. If low production volumes and high prices become the new norm, and more brands try to follow the Rolex business model (waiting lists, scalpers, etc) how will that play out?
> ...


Generally, the biggest parts of the industry are in real trouble, of their own making, largely due to over-pricing/over-producing, which are really just two sides of the same coin. It's easy enough for me to say that, because it's easy enough for anyone to see it.

When we get into more specific examples, we may have to settle for making some educated guesses.

RE - Seiko - Generally, the Japanese play the game by different rules than the Swiss. On the one hand, the Japanese seem to be fairly straightforward in their actions, such that their motivations would seem fairly apparent, but on the other hand, they often behave in ways which defy interpretation.

To make that clearer - I think they discontinue models when they perceive that demand is weakening (straightforward). Yet sometimes they seem incapable of understanding demand, when it comes to the models they stop vs those they continue, and the sorts of movements they develop, which often seem out of sync with what the market would seem to want.

I haven't paid attention to the blue Alpinist story, but I gather people freaked out over it, a buying craze ensued, creating a bubble effect?

Potentially, perhaps there's some intermediary between Seiko and the consumers, who committed to buying a certain number if Seiko produced them, and Seiko produced exactly that many, so the scarcity is a function of how many the intermediary could rationalize.

It may be simpler than that. Perhaps Seiko wanted to test the waters with a limited run, before producing more.

Or, maybe we're back to simply not understanding why Seiko does anything, because, Seiko, who knows why?

RE - the Swiss - Generally, the Swiss are laughably bad at concealing their motives, which are usually all-to-clear, despite what their messaging says. Likewise, they seem largely incapable of recognizing (or perhaps accepting) market demand. I'd say only a portion of the Swiss industry has a reasonably good handle on what demand truly is, and only that portion is acting accordingly.

The "limited edition of the week" phenomenon seems like a logical result to me. It's somewhat like what I've done with the Subs. We produce 25-50 per version at a time, which we hope is a little less than what the market wants, so they sell quickly, and if that happens, we make more. If it doesn't, then we don't make more, or we wait a while.

The difference is that the big Swiss brands don't make 25-50, they make 2500-5000, and charge 5x-10x what an NTH Sub costs, so there's still a fundamental problem of the market's appetite for what they're making being more limited. There's really no "scarcity" in those cases, unless one of those limited editions becomes highly sought-after, for whatever reason. It can and sometimes does happen.

The Rolex/Tudor version of scarcity does seem forced, but, again, for obvious reasons. They want to create a frenzy, and a buzz about waiting lists, and watch resale values exceed new purchase prices.

With some NTH models, they'll sell for more than full retail on the secondary market. The difference is I literally cannot afford to produce watches fast enough to keep up with demand, unless I'm willing to risk over-production by over-weighting the mix of models we're producing in favor of those hot-sellers.

Again, to make that clearer - we've got a production going right now. We're making 13 models, most with date/no-date options, for a total of 21 unique variations. We're making at least 25-50 pieces of each of those variations, but for the hot-sellers, we're making more than that.

If we make 100, it may not be enough, but 200 may be too many. I don't know, and I don't want to risk over-production, so we're gradually raising the numbers. With each production, we're watching the sell-through, continuously working to dial-in the numbers, to get to a point where we're supplying what the market wants, as accurately as possible, in a timely way.

Rolex/Tudor aren't limited for resources the way I am. *They could easily make enough to keep up with demand*. They choose not to. I know many resent them for it, but, honestly, I think it's smart of them, when we look at the rest of the industry, and see how over-pricing/over-production is killing it.

*EDIT* - _I just realized I contradicted the above statement with my post below.

What I should have said is, we probably all assume that Rolex could easily increase their production volume to keep up with demand. Maybe they could, but we don't know. It is possible that they can't do it efficiently, because they'd need to increase capacity with a stepped-up increase in costs that would outstrip the likely increase in revenue they'd be able to recognize in the near term._


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

docvail said:


> The Rolex/Tudor version of scarcity does seem forced, but, again, for obvious reasons. They want to create a frenzy, and a buzz about waiting lists, and watch resale values exceed new purchase prices.
> 
> Rolex/Tudor aren't limited for resources the way I am. They could easily make enough to keep up with demand. They choose not to. I know many resent them for it, but, honestly, I think it's smart of them, when we look at the rest of the industry, and see how over-pricing/over-production is killing it.


I'm struggling to understand why it is good/smart for Rolex for resale to exceed retail. Is it just for brand building? They're losing money by not making enough and not raising prices. Why choose to do this on only certain models and then make a million Datejusts that nobody buys?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kak1154 said:


> I'm struggling to understand why it is good/smart for Rolex for resale to exceed retail. Is it just for brand building? They're losing money by not making enough and not raising prices. Why choose to do this on only certain models and then make a million Datejusts that nobody buys?


I'd disagree that they're losing money. It's an argument similar to the one I made in another thread discussing the phenomenon surrounding the Halios Seaforth, but it could also be applied to the NTH Subs.

Right now, we're struggling to balance market demand against our ability to produce - which is limited not only by our financial resources, but also by the time involved, 3-4 months per production.

The time it takes and the cost of production make it impossible for me to perfectly sync production to demand, the way I could if we were selling something that cost $1 per unit and took 1 day to produce.

In a perfect world, if it took 3-4 months per production cycle, it would take exactly that long to sell through the pieces we make, but that would require us to know in advance how many we could sell in that time, which no one can accurately forecast. And I mean no one, in any company, of any size.

As such, you have to pick your poison - make fewer, and risk demand outstripping supply, which creates the opportunity for your product to sell for more on the secondary market, or make more, and risk over-production, which puts downward pressure on pricing, and hurts your brand.

Between the two, the better choice should be obvious.

But, why not just raise prices to the point where equilibrium between supply and demand is reached? Because the reality is that the demand/supply/price curve isn't perfectly linear. At certain points ("price points", the term so many WIS hate, often because they don't understand it), the demand will rise or fall in a non-linear way:









To give a personal example - I've had people suggest I should raise prices of the NTH Subs, since we're having trouble keeping up with demand. My response, generally, is, no, I don't think that we should, because my gut tells me that if we raised prices just a little, we could see demand drop off a lot, and that could be disastrous.

If we're going to increase prices to keep up with demand, we have to make sure that demand is in fact large enough to warrant a price increase without creating excess supply (over-production).

You have to look at each case individually.

Could Halios raise prices on the Seaforth? Maybe, but you'd need to know his production numbers, and compare them to the apparent demand, and compare that to the expected drop off in demand with an increase in prices.

Could NTH raise prices? I don't think we can, at least not at the moment, though perhaps with more growth in market awareness, we could.

Could Rolex/Tudor increase prices or their production volume?

As for pricing, there's nothing stopping Rolex/Tudor AD's from charging more for the product. Hell, maybe they'd be smart to auction them off to the highest bidder. But I wonder how much of the excitement and pricing power is tied up in the scarcity on the supply side.

Would putting them on auction turn too many people off, once the price gets out of reach for too many people?

*EDIT* - _What follows below contradicts my post above, which I just edited to remove the contradiction._

On the supply side, increasing production volume is easier said than done, especially for companies as vertically-integrated as Rolex is.

When I want to increase production, I just tell my vendors to make more watches. As long as I'm over the MOQ, there's really no upper limit, although I've found that there's a practical limit to how many can be produced without delays and other problems.

The point is, though, I don't own the factory, and the factory has additional capacity available if we need it. If I want to increase by 20%, from 500 to 600 pieces per production, it's no big deal.

But if I want to double my volume, not only do I need the money to pay for production, I may also have to hire a full-time watchmaker to do QC and post-sale support, so I have to be very sure I can sell that many before I make that investment and take that risk.

I think it's generally assumed Rolex DOES own their own factories. The challenge for them is one of stepped-increases in costs which arise when they add capacity, and the cost increases outpace the profits from the production increases. I'll explain...

Assume that they're currently producing as many units as they can with their current level of staffing and manufacturing capacity. If they want to increase production, they have to add staff/shifts, or buy a bigger factory, or more machines, etc. There's a huge capital cost up front, and an ongoing expense, regardless of how big an increase they want in production, or how big an increase they'll see in sales.

Let's say that if they want to make just one more watch per day, they have to add enough capacity to produce another 10 per day.

It may be the case that to add 1,000 pieces per year, if that's enough to meet demand, they have to finance the costs of increasing capacity to 5,000 units per year, and they won't reach a break-even point until they're producing AND selling 2500 pieces per year, and they project that they won't get there for 5-10 years.

So, if they want to make another 1,000 pieces per year, to meet market demand, they have to be willing to accept an immediate and huge capital cost, and accept annual losses on the additional capacity they've built, for the next 5-10 years. Is the added profit from those 1,000 pieces enough to rationalize those investments?

No? Then don't do it.

If they raised prices, there's the possibility that the market demand would fall more than they'd want, erasing the perception of "scarcity", and eroding the resale value which helps drive demand.

If they raised production volume, the same thing might happen - no more scarcity, AND, they'd be dealing with a huge capital investment and ongoing expense.

My hunch is Rolex is smart enough to figure all this out. They know how to set prices and production volume to create a buzz and support the long term viability of their brand.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

More importantly, when's the NTH x Macy's crossover watch?

A slight tangent on the Alpinist - yep, hodinkee made some # of those available (# = anywhere between 100 and 1950ish), sold out instantly (apparently), and now it's listing (and maybe selling) for approx 1.5x - 2x the hodinkee-price on ebay.

People are upset at the limited nature of it, especially as it's a much better-looking and much more mass-appealing colorway than the "regular" green Alpinist. Which got discontinued.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

People honestly shouldn't be surprised by this. Look at what happened to the "Ninja Turtle" for example. A regular turtle on bracelet is about $300. At one point NTs were going on eBay for like $900+, for what is essentially nothing more than a PVD Turtle. Take a watch with a cult following like the Alpinist, discontinue it, and then release a very attractive LE model with a universally popular color like blue that's never been available before, and it's practically guaranteed to sell out instantly. I'm sure plenty of people bought the watch with absolutely no interest in ever wearing it, they bought it purely to flip at a profit. Take away the "limited to 1959" status, and the market changes substantially. Even if Seiko decides they only want to make 2,000 of them, but they don't actually state that up front, it's still a very different situation. If people _assume_ that the watch will still be there to buy after the initial fervor dies down, they're going to wait, and not pay prices flippers are asking.

As for Rolex, there's another side to the "limited availability" thing that I think some people miss. Two guys walk into an AD wanting a BB58. The AD only has one. Tudor was stupid, right? They just cost themselves a sale, they clearly should've made more. Or are they? What if one of those two guys wanted the BB58, as opposed to a similarly priced competitor like a SMP, because he knew that the BB would hold 100%+ of its value, whereas the readily available Omega wouldn't? The resale boosting effect of limited availability may have gotten Tudor a sale that they otherwise wouldn't have gotten if their watches depreciated 50% like an Oris Aquis or Tag Aquaracer.

So it's entirely possible that Tudor would've sold one watch either way. The difference is that if they over produce, they risk falling into the trap that everyone else is in - GM sales at 40% off new, etc. If they under produce, they don't have to add the associated costs of increased manufacturing capacity that doc talked about, and they better protect their brand and market positioning. The choice to me seems obvious.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

kak1154 said:


> I'm struggling to understand why it is good/smart for Rolex for resale to exceed retail. Is it just for brand building? They're losing money by not making enough and not raising prices. Why choose to do this on only certain models and then make a million Datejusts that nobody buys?


Precisely because it does enable them to raise prices, it helps to justify the increase, and ensures that all stock is sold out instantly as opportunists buy up the full inventory. The next time a model is launched, anyone previously on the fence will now impulse buy, because
a) it will only be more expensive if you decide you want it later, 
b) if you change your mind, you can flip it and make money off it.
c) you definitely don't want it, but flipping it is free money, right?
So now the brand has worked out a way to sell watches, even to people who don't want it!
That's a marketing miracle!

The discussion (complaints etc) surrounding underproduction further help create the perception of brand exclusivity and desirability. When you have thousands of pissed off people posting online that they really wanted something and missed out, it creates a buzz, and people who otherwise weren't interested will be curious what the commotion is about. With all the posts on facebook, I bet a lot of people are googling "what the eff is a Blue Alpinist?" You can't pay for marketing like that.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

This was the very first Facebook post in my feed this morning.
Everyone is talking about the BA, even when they aren't...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Cosmodromedary said:


> This was the very first Facebook post in my feed this morning.
> Everyone is talking about the BA, even when they aren't...


Just gonna say that my life was easier and less complicated before I looked into the Montblanc 1858 auto...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cosmodromedary said:


> Precisely because it does enable them to raise prices, it helps to justify the increase, and ensures that all stock is sold out instantly as opportunists buy up the full inventory. The next time a model is launched, anyone previously on the fence will now impulse buy, because
> a) it will only be more expensive if you decide you want it later,
> b) if you change your mind, you can flip it and make money off it.
> c) you definitely don't want it, but flipping it is free money, right?
> ...


A lot of what you said there is exactly right, vis-a-vis the psychology at work when the feeding frenzy happens. Let me add this, with regards to a few semi-specific examples:

Halios - I know Jason personally, though maybe not enough to say I know him well. I do have some sense of his production volume, and the challenges he would face in increasing his production, if he wants to maintain his operations as they are (which is to say, he does literally everything himself, taking as long as it takes, with an obsessive attention to detail and quality). I categorically reject any assertion, by anyone, that he's playing a game in which he's artificially limiting supply. Trust me, he isn't.

NTH - I'm not really playing a game, but I am definitely being deliberate in how quickly we ramp up production generally, and the numbers for any given model specifically. I have refused to over-weight production of any model, not because I want to start a frenzy, but because I'm afraid of what happens when we decide to dramatically ramp up production just as we're approaching the bottom of the demand barrel. It took me 5 years to get on the right side of the supply-vs-demand curve, and I'm not looking to back-slide by getting caught up in over-production.

Rolex/Tudor - I suspect there's some game-playing going on, but it's also possible that they're approaching the limits of what they can produce without a huge step up in the costs of creating and maintaining additional production capacity, and that raising prices as a means of lowering demand to meet available supply could backfire on them.

Hodinkee's stuff (if that's what the blue Alpinist was - I'm still not paying attention, because I don't care) - That's pure gamesmanship. I have no idea who's paying for what in their deals, or who's getting what, but I am certain that whoever's bankrolling production, they could easily finance the production costs for a much larger production if they wanted to maximize profits by making sure supply matches demand. That's not what they want. They want the frenzy, because that's what helps build the Hodinkee brand, which is their most valuable asset, and is way more important than whatever percentage they get on the watches they help sell.

The common denominator in all of the above is brand-building, pure and simple. As the knucklehead CMO of my old company told me, "Brand = Demand". It was stupid when he said it, because it doesn't apply to software for insurance companies, but it's genius now, because it definitely applies to watches.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> Just gonna say that my life was easier and less complicated before I looked into the Montblanc 1858 auto...


Edit: oh, you said the auto. Whoops. Nevermind. Here's a watch.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I recently scored a very nice used Bahia. It's great. Compared to my Nacken Modern Blue, the hands are slim and subtle instead of big and bold. The dial is warm and soft and mellow compared to bright and crisp and stark.

In person (for me, at least) the red numbers tend to disappear. Without concentrating, I don't see them as numbers. More like subliminal details giving some depth and added interest to the dial.


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

NTH Dolphin, soon to be modelled by the wife









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

The lumetastic Bahia.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> The lumetastic Bahia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The crown lume looks more blue than the bezel lume.

Clearly defective. I'd leave negative feedback everywhere.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> The crown lume looks more blue than the bezel lume.
> 
> Clearly defective. I'd leave negative feedback everywhere.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


QC sucks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

So does CS. I wore it around for only 1 month like this and they won't give me a refund! 

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Umm, doc sucks 

The DevilRay doesn't though. It can handle the poo weather outside right now.



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ I really, really like that one!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heads up for the Instagram users. We were finally able to change our username to @nthwatches. For some reason we couldn't do it months ago, when we launched the new website, but today it worked.










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

That time Doc nailed perfection.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone here get in on the Hamtun H2 project that launched on Kickstarter today?

Apparently it's the new hot girl at the prom...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rossdavis/kraken-h2-premium-titanium-watch-without-the-retai

He gave me a sneak peek at the blue version...


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Anyone here get in on the Hamtun H2 project that launched on Kickstarter today?
> 
> Apparently it's the new hot girl at the prom...
> 
> ...


Nope. I'm waiting for the much anticipated 42-44mm Nth hot release... coming soon?

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Nope. I'm waiting for the much anticipated 42-44mm Nth hot release... coming soon?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


If we can figure out the difference between 1mm and "none", we'll get moving again. At the moment, that seems to be where we're stuck.


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

docvail said:


> Anyone here get in on the Hamtun H2 project that launched on Kickstarter today?
> 
> Apparently it's the new hot girl at the prom...
> 
> ...


I did. For someone that works with numbers all day, you'd think I could add 8 hours to 17:30GMT. Apparently not (dumb a$$), so I missed the early bird pricing. Still a great watch at £240 IMO. If the base model had a Miyota 9015 and appropriately thinner case it'd be near perfect!

Now I just have to keep my fingers crossed that backers vote for the ratcheting extension clasp rather than the meteorite dial ?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ian_61 said:


> I did. For someone that works with numbers all day, you'd think I could add 8 hours to 17:30GMT. Apparently not (dumb a$$), so I missed the early bird pricing. Still a great watch at £240 IMO. If the base model had a Miyota 9015 and appropriately thinner case it'd be near perfect!
> 
> Now I just have to keep my fingers crossed that backers vote for the ratcheting extension clasp rather than the meteorite dial


Send me some TimTams and ten croco-dollas, I'll drop Ross a note about it.

Even at the now-current price of USD ~$315, c'mon, that's just an insane deal for what you get.

I see the stated dimensions show 13.9mm thickness, but the case diagram appears to show just 13.5mm. It's a little chunky, but from what I can see looking at the case cutaway, it doesn't look like it could be any more than 1mm thinner.

The case profile looks like it won't feel quite that chunky, and no doubt the lighter weight of titanium will make it feel thinner, too.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Send me some TimTams and ten croco-dollas, I'll drop Ross a note about it.
> 
> Even at the now-current price of USD ~$315, c'mon, that's just an insane deal for what you get.
> 
> ...


What if he just smiles while making you a Vegemite sandwich?

Made that joke to an Aussie SAS Major once somewhere near Tikrit in 2006. He didn't seem amused.

Also, I'm in on that Kraken as well.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

...In other news, I'm old enough to remember when Doc didn't just make subs. Devilray will always be my true love, but Spectre on a Strapcode Hexad Oyster is miss right tonight.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> What if he just smiles while making you a Vegemite sandwich?
> 
> Made that joke to an Aussie SAS Major once somewhere near Tikrit in 2006. He didn't seem amused.
> 
> Also, I'm in on that Kraken as well.


Everyone knows Aussie military members surrender their sense of humor when they take their oaths of allegiance to the crown.

Read a book.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Anyone here get in on the Hamtun H2 project that launched on Kickstarter today?
> 
> Apparently it's the new hot girl at the prom...
> 
> ...


Wow. Zoinks. Another rough-and-tumble-looking diver. Astounding.

Ok, tbh it's _fiiiiine_, it's just floating in a sea of many many very similar watches.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Anyone here get in on the Hamtun H2 project that launched on Kickstarter today?
> 
> Apparently it's the new hot girl at the prom...
> 
> ...


Is Hamtun a play on Hampton?

I dig the shapes. Hands and markers are cool. Ti is nice. Is a crooked date better when it's at 4 instead of stuck between 4 and 5? Dunno... Still hate it though. The 3 marker is almost big enough to have a date window within it. Lack of product dimensions on Kickstarter pages is obnoxious. 
Can I "pledge" to this project and back out without losing $ if the ratchet clasp isn't added? I don't even understand how that's a question.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> *Is Hamtun a play on Hampton? *
> 
> I dig the shapes. Hands and markers are cool. Ti is nice. Is a crooked date better when it's at 4 instead of stuck between 4 and 5? Dunno... Still hate it though. The 3 marker is almost big enough to have a date window within it. *Lack of product dimensions on Kickstarter pages is obnoxious. *
> *Can I "pledge" to this project and back out without losing $ if the ratchet clasp isn't added?* I don't even understand how that's a question.


I don't know.

They're there.

Yes.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Thanks, I found more info. When I clicked through to the campaign from their site I was at a different landing page.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Not my cuppa. I actually prefer some of the handset choices they've illustrated as early design renders. Oh well. It's good that I don't like _all_ the watches. I have been thinking about a titanium, I'd just want it to be a smidge smaller.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

42mm GPW Auto Ti...with the 12hr bezel? still $300 just about everywhere.

https://www.amazon.com/Military-Titanium-Automatic-GPW-Sapphire/dp/B01M1J9AJ8/ref=cts_wa_2_vtp

I have the big date quartz version and it's on my heavy weekend rotation. Crappy pic on a lovely red vanilla Janis strap!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GUY:



JakeJD said:


> Not my cuppa. I actually prefer some of the handset choices they've illustrated as early design renders. Oh well. It's good that I don't like _all_ the watches. I have been thinking about a titanium, *I'd just want it to be a smidge smaller.*


(It's 41mm)

You:



azsuprasm said:


> *42mm* GPW Auto Ti...with the 12hr bezel? still $300 just about everywhere.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Military-Titanium-Automatic-GPW-Sapphire/dp/B01M1J9AJ8/ref=cts_wa_2_vtp


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It really is amazing I don't have more friends...


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Bah. I got it wrong again.

I’ll be over here in the corner if anyone needs me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

92gli said:


> Is Hamtun a play on Hampton?
> 
> I dig the shapes. Hands and markers are cool. Ti is nice. Is a crooked date better when it's at 4 instead of stuck between 4 and 5? Dunno... Still hate it though. The 3 marker is almost big enough to have a date window within it. Lack of product dimensions on Kickstarter pages is obnoxious.
> Can I "pledge" to this project and back out without losing $ if the ratchet clasp isn't added? I don't even understand how that's a question.


Hamtun is the Saxon name for the city that became the modern day Southampton, which is the hometown of Hamtun Watches. Southampton is not the most prepossessing of places, but at least the Hamtun name scans reasonably well on the watch dial unlike those awful abbreviated, amusing for 4 seconds, but distinctly uncool names ending in r and rg - you know who they are.........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Dunno, now I'm looking harder at the white one. I do like that color scheme and I could justify making this my white dial diver (right now a whilver Seiko). And hard to argue with the price... Except September. Ack.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Hamtun is the Saxon name for the city that became the modern day Southampton, which is the hometown of Hamtun Watches. Southampton is not the most prepossessing of places, but at least the Hamtun name scans reasonably well on the watch dial unlike those awful abbreviated, amusing for 4 seconds, but distinctly uncool names ending in r and rg - you know who they are.........
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan


It sounds like the cockney accent way of saying "Hampton", though I imagine they'd shimmy an "S" in there at the beginning, like, "S'hamtun", but that would definitely not look right on the dial.

On occasion, my mind wanders around to thinking about what name I might give some other brand I might start, to do something different from NTH, and just thinking about it always gives me stomach upset, knowing the impossibility to give a new brand any name and not suffer some ridicule from someone, somewhere.

The only thing I can do to chase the melancholy away is think about my latest most favorite brand, Noob Factory.









That's not a joke. These were all all over Amazon late last year. They had fantastic knockoffs every every Rolex you can imagine, plus some Pateks and others.

Amazon seems to be scrubbing them off their site, but if you search "Noob", you can still find a few, though it appears the sellers have been blurring the logos...









I mean...NOOB factory. That's freaking genius! My biggest headaches all come from noobs. I wish to God I'd had the comedic foresight to name by brand "Noob".


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

JakeJD said:


> Dunno, now I'm looking harder at the white one. I do like that color scheme and I could justify making this my white dial diver (right now a whilver Seiko). And hard to argue with the price... Except September. Ack.


I'll continue commenting here because I assume doc started the discussion in the interest of his market research. Like you, I keep looking at the white one. Don't have anything with a white dial. Really like the oversized Seiko-esque markers. Really like the hands too. Black outlines on the markers and hands... yes please. Also don't have anything Ti. I can kind of forgive the thickness cause it's light. I could live with the bracelet without ratcheting, again because it's light. I'm even getting over the crooked date. See how nicely shaped the window is? And that little step down around the border, nice touch. The gray bezel insert is speaking to me. Price is really good. Alas... I know re-setting the date all the time will drive me nuts. Can't do it!!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> It sounds like the cockney accent way of saying "Hampton", though I imagine they'd shimmy an "S" in there at the beginning, like, "S'hamtun", but that would definitely not look right on the dial.
> 
> Sort of got it there Doc with the Cockney Rhyming, a "Hampton" is the abbreviated version of "Hampton Wick" which corresponds to, ahem, "Pr'ck ............... something like "That geezer is in a right two and eight and talks nuffin but a load of old pony, eez just a total Hampton".
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> I'll continue commenting here because I assume doc started the discussion in the interest of his market research. Like you, I keep looking at the white one. Don't have anything with a white dial. Really like the oversized Seiko-esque markers. Really like the hands too. Black outlines on the markers and hands... yes please. Also don't have anything Ti. I can kind of forgive the thickness cause it's light. I could live with the bracelet without ratcheting, again because it's light. I'm even getting over the crooked date. See how nicely shaped the window is? And that little step down around the border, nice touch. The gray bezel insert is speaking to me. Price is really good. Alas... I know re-setting the date all the time will drive me nuts. Can't do it!!


I had a better response typed out, but when I went to add a pic, my browser froze up, and I lost it.

Anyway, I think the white is the best version overall, for the way the details of the date window are most visible, the way the date wheel matches the dial color, and the contrast of the blue font.

It's not market research. Ross is a good bloke (his goofy portrait notwithstanding), and I'm happy to see him crushing it on Kickstarter with his current project. Sometimes it feels good to call attention to a friend's moment of victory as it's happening. It's a nice break from the usual (the usual being my thinking about my own businesss).


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Did you have a word to Ross already Doc? He's looking into a slimmer case for the Sellita. There goes another £100. Box of Tim Tams coming your way! And a jar of Vegemite too if that's your thing, personally I can't stand that sh1t...

I'm still in the fence on dial colour. White was my first choice but then Ross emailed a yellow dial render a few weeks back. While I love the look of yellow, my worry is that in a year or two I'll say to myself "what the hell was I thinking"? Doubt that's be a concern with white.

And those soldiers you met, are you sure they weren't Kiwis? 😄


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ian_61 said:


> Did you have a word to Ross already Doc? He's looking into a slimmer case for the Sellita. There goes another £100. Box of Tim Tams coming your way! And a jar of Vegemite too if that's your thing, personally I can't stand that sh1t...
> 
> I'm still in the fence on dial colour. White was my first choice but then Ross emailed a yellow dial render a few weeks back. While I love the look of yellow, my worry is that in a year or two I'll say to myself "what the hell was I thinking"? Doubt that's be a concern with white.
> 
> And those soldiers you met, are you sure they weren't Kiwis?


I haven't traded messages with him since a few hours after his project launched.

I'll be interested to see if he can swing the slimmer case for the Sellita. I don't think the Sellita is all that much thinner, but assuming the difference merits producing a different case, it would mean a new MOQ for the second case, and my back-of-the-envelope math suggests more people have been pledging for the Seiko, by such a wide margin that I don't think he's got enough to rationalize its production.

It's possible I'm wrong. Hopefully so.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Making friends wherever I go...










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Making friends wherever I go...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's awesome.


----------



## Champagne InHand (Dec 15, 2015)

I got the super early bird Hamtun H2 Kraken and paid the £100 for the Sellita. Plus £10 shipping to the USA, though it ten to ship anywhere. 

I would like the ratcheting clasp as well. 

I think I am getting the white as the AR looks quite good. I currently have zero white dials unless you count my great grandfather’s Hami pocket watch, or a GP sundial from the 50s which is more ivory. I don’t wear these vintage pieces except a birth year Tudor and that’s only on my birthday. 

I’m actually and avid EPL football fan and I always hope Southampton makes the relegation cut each year as well as a few Sunderland teams. It gives the mote Northern teams a break to head South and warm up a bit, especially during cups and when still competing in Champions League. One of the reasons I liked the H2 was the coloring of the dot on the seconds hand and the Kraken printing as it my teams home color. 

I figure that I only have one other Ti watch as well and I like the idea of the clear scratch protection as I’ve had Ti before and I always seem to bump it into something as I’m getting old and it marks up my Ti time piece. 

Anyhow, while a diver, which I have many of, they are my favorite type of watch, even though I have a few watches with no bezel. Not many that see wrist time other than a Ball Fireman Glory. I live in the cold North and hibernate/live in my cave during the arctic like months if I don’t venture down to South America or someplace warm. 

I’ve really enjoyed NTH watches. I was so happy to have alternative choices for mil-subs other than OVM type watches that use old radium lume and don’t have applied indices. 

I have the Amphion modern and find it just beautiful. 

I do b*#ch about the noise of the 9015, but that movement is thin, accurate, high beat and sturdy so I don’t gripe too much. It’s a give and take and I would take the Amphion over the Ginault OR any day. 

Thanks for all your hard work Doc. 

As I read through I saw mentions of TGV. I’ve watched quite a few of his videos. Corny for the most part. Cult like. 

As for Noob, they are one of the biggest producers of super replicas. I’m sure they would love to get into the legit business but when they have cult like followings where guy’s routinely pay over $509, just to swap out pieces of the replica with OEM parts of what they claim are ORM parts and then find some fool that will pay $1400 for the Frankensteined watch only to buy the next Noob version of whatever replica they’re listing after, I don’t see much motivating factors for Mr. Noob to work to hard at going legit. 

Sorry for covering so many topics on one post. I just stumbled across this thread and read almost all of it. It’s snowing outside, 13F with 20-30 knot winds so I’m just trying to avoid cabin fever. It’s definitely difficult this time of year when looking for any sign that the Winter is coming to an end. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Anyone here get in on the Hamtun H2 project that launched on Kickstarter today?
> 
> Apparently it's the new hot girl at the prom...
> 
> ...


None of the stretch goals are for a "no date" option, so nope. I don't like 4 o'clock dates any more than 4:30 dates.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> None of the stretch goals are for a "no date" option, so nope. I don't like 4 o'clock dates any more than 4:30 dates.


Watch geeks be like...










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Making friends wherever I go...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like to go snorkeling. Sometimes I take photos. Gimme a watch plz and I will take photos of it.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Watch geeks be like...
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


*Looks down at dateless 12mm Huldra on wrist* yup. Very few girls get to come home with me, and even fewer get to stay. The Huldra is in it for the long haul, whereas I wanted to like the Decodiver more than I actually do, and we're now divorced. Down to three until the Drz_02 gets here. I even put up with the fact that the lume on the blue Huldra lasts for about 12 seconds and is by far the weakest of any watch I've ever owned because I love the design so much. Also, the light sand color that Chip used is _perfect_. Crisp white BGW9 would've been 10X brighter I'm sure, but it wouldn't look anywhere near as good, and it's not like I'm actually gonna _dive_ with the thing anyway. If I need good lume, well that's what the SARB059 dialed SKX is for.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> I like to go snorkeling. Sometimes I take photos. Gimme a watch plz and I will take photos of it.


"I've also decided that I don't like cheap watches. Please give me a high quality one. Not because I want it, but because my volunteer role requires it. I'm sure you understand."

So much to unpack in that message...


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Hi. My name is Steve. I trespass local golf courses in the middle of the night to dive for golf balls. This job requires a watch with great lume and my mom... I mean, my boss, won't buy me one. Your products appear to fit my needs perfectly. If you send me one I'll gladly post many photos on Instagram of me wearing it while playing Fortnight, eating Cheetos and chain smoking in my basement lair. Thanks bro, Steve


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

Some - 5 F early morning gilty goodness.









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

The "Shaun post" kinda reminds me of this scam from years ago that someone played along with regarding an Apple PowerBook (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1016390). Tl;dr - they knew they were being scammed, so they sent the scammer some junk, which,thinking it was actually the PowerBook, he had to pay the customs duties on to get. I wonder if maybe you should play along and send over like a paper cutout of one of the Subs or something. Or maybe a website with a "print and cut out your own sub" you can direct them to.









Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Hi. My name is Steve. I trespass local golf courses in the middle of the night to dive for golf balls. This job requires a watch with great lume and my mom... I mean, my boss, won't buy me one. Your products appear to fit my needs perfectly. If you send me one I'll gladly post many photos on Instagram of me wearing it while playing *Fortnight,* eating Cheetos and chain smoking in my basement lair. Thanks bro, Steve


I'm pretty shore it's "Fork Knife".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Too good not to share. From a guy on Facebook.










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Ha! Perfect.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Nope. I'm waiting for the much anticipated 42-44mm Nth hot release... coming soon?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


So....

The new case has some design elements which weren't too hard to draw (the hardest part was getting Rusty to do his damned job and draw them), but as I've alluded to before, just because you can draw something doesn't mean you can manufacture it.

We sent our primary vendor ("OEM") the case drawing, got their inputs, made some small changes, got stuck on some others. The ball is in their court at the moment. They're supposed to be making the additions/changes to the case, then sending it back to us. I'm hoping to get it tonight/tomorrow, but...might be over the weekend or early next week.

I'm not sure if we're just being stupid/stubborn about it. This is why I don't like showing people designs before we've got them done, because we sometimes have changes forced on us, and I hate having to explain/defend them. Easier to keep it all under wraps until things are "final". If you don't know there's been some changes, I don't have to explain or defend them.

Which just leaves me to wonder if we're being needlessly stupid/stubborn. There are two small things that I wanted in the design, because vintage inspiration, and they look better, and just plain cool-because-no-one-else-does-it-that-way.

I think people would be and may yet be fine if we have to let these two things go, or accept their being slightly changed. It's not like it's a whole different design without them. It's just frustrating to put the effort into creating something, sort of falling in love with it, then being told, "nah, you can't have that."

Once we get the case finalized, we can get to work on the rest of the design. I think it'll go pretty quickly after that. I gave Aaron some ideas about where I think I wanted to go with it aesthetically. My hope is we can have it out of production and ready to ship to customers by fall (Sept-Oct-ish). That means we need to start production by May/June, at the latest.

If we can get Aaron to move faster than Rusty, we might even get ahead of schedule.

Just between us girls here...does a bigger/badder MilSub, something that looks like the 5513/5517 mixed with the Pelagos sound too homagey? We've been talking about going a bit more "original" with it, maybe, and making it look less like an homage of anything in particular, with just some subtle nods to the sources of inspiration.

My heart (and Rusty's incessant yammering) says we should go more original, but my gut tells me a modern MilSub/Pelagos mashup will sell like conjugal visits to guys serving life in prison.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> So....
> 
> Just between us girls here...does a bigger/badder MilSub, something that looks like the 5513/5517 mixed with the Pelagos sound too homagey? We've been talking about going a bit more "original" with it, maybe, and making it look less like an homage of anything in particular, with just some subtle nods to the sources of inspiration.
> 
> My heart (and Rusty's incessant yammering) says we should go more original, but my gut tells me a modern MilSub/Pelagos mashup will sell like conjugal visits to guys serving life in prison.


By Mil-sub/Pelagos mashup, do you mean basically a 5517 with a Pelagos bezel insert, or something different? My only concern there is that Steinhart already makes a 42mm 5517 homage. I'd personally like to see you guys do something a little different, but then I won't be buying the watch regardless because it'll be too big for my wrist. I think something like this would be awesome (dial and bezel wise, not the case), but you're the one actually in the business of selling watches.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I would definitely be interested in some form of Milsub, but I am also waiting for the Phantom/Sinn/Spork pilot version you hinted at. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> So....
> 
> Just between us girls here...does a bigger/badder MilSub, something that looks like the 5513/5517 mixed with the Pelagos sound too homagey? We've been talking about going a bit more "original" with it, maybe, and making it look less like an homage of anything in particular, with just some subtle nods to the sources of inspiration.
> 
> My heart (and Rusty's incessant yammering) says we should go more original, but my gut tells me a modern MilSub/Pelagos mashup will sell like conjugal visits to guys serving life in prison.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

docvail said:


> Too good not to share. From a guy on Facebook.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that the vintage or modern black

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> By Mil-sub/Pelagos mashup, do you mean basically a 5517 with a Pelagos bezel insert, or something different? My only concern there is that Steinhart already makes a 42mm 5517 homage. I'd personally like to see you guys do something a little different, but then I won't be buying the watch regardless because it'll be too big for my wrist. I think something like this would be awesome (dial and bezel wise, not the case), but you're the one actually in the business of selling watches.
> 
> View attachment 13956463


It won't be very much like Steinhart's OVM.



tim_herremans said:


> Is that the vintage or modern black
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looks like the Modern Blue.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I'd stick with the conjugal visit version. The philosophy behind the Nacken was perfect, IMO.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep 6 today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JakeJD said:


>


Actually, it's not necessarily too much. We could do both, by making different versions with the same case.

So far, we've got a case design, and we've been looking at doing some sort of beveled or curved rehaut.

The case "footprint" (how it looks from the front) will echo the shape of Seadwellers (which are similar to the Submariner) from the late '60's / early '70's to late '80's (the original Seadweller was revealed in 1967, but not available to buy until 1971).

The original Seadweller had a 40mm bezel, 47mm length, and 20mm lugs, whereas ours has a 43.75mm bezel, 51mm length, and 22mm lugs. Our case will have crown guards and the more traditional/iconic scalloped bezel grip. But, our case will be much thinner overall, and we've added some subtle things to make it wear even thinner still.

Visually, the Seadweller case was very similar to the 5513/5517 MilSubs. Within the modern Rolex and Tudor product range, the one which most resembles those vintage Submariners, in my opinion, is the Pelagos. It has more tapered lines than the modern Seadweller range or modern Submariners. It's thinner at the lug ends, has pointed crown guards, and chamfered case sides. It's mostly differentiated by its knurled bezel grip, its rehaut, and its modern materials.

Where we're stuck with our case is on some small designs elements which differentiate the earliest versions of the Seadweller from the later versions. Generally, our case shape is classic MilSub, but enlarged, making it closer in size, and vaguely similar to the Pelagos. If we have to accept the changes the factory wants, it'll look slightly more like the later models than we'd planned, which are closer to the Pelagos and modern iterations of the Submariner and Seadwellers.

The Pelagos has a two-stepped rehaut with cut-outs for the markers. We've been thinking about doing something like that, but with a single surface, either sloped, or curved, like on the DevilRay.

So far, you've got an up-sized vintage-Submariner/Seadweller inspired case, but with lines and a rehaut that will remind some of the Pelagos or current Seadweller. At this point, if we gave it the same dial pattern and handset as the Nackens, it's effectively a Seadweller/Pelagos mash-up, which I think many people might like, even though many others will dismiss it as just an unoriginal mashup of borrowed design elements.

If we drop the rehaut, then it's even more of an up-sized, beefed-up Sub, and draws comparisons to the modern Seadwellers, or the many various 42mm-44mm homages to the vintage Submariners.

If we give that a big-number pilot dial and hands, like the Scorpene, but still without the rehaut, people call it a poor-man's Sinn 857 or beefed up Seiko Spork, which no doubt would please some, but with the same sort of criticisms. If we keep and modify the rehaut to work with the big-number dial pattern, it differentiates it from the Sinn/Spork.

If we give it sword hands and the traditional Submariner dial pattern, it gets compared to the Steinhart OVM and any other upsized MilSub homages. If we give it 3-6-9-triangle numbering, people will say it's a Black Bay Bronze without the bronze.

So, we've been fighting to keep the case shape more vintage-looking, and fighting to keep those little things we did to make it ours/different, and make it appear thinner. My thinking is no matter what we get for the case, we'll use the rehaut on most versions, to further differentiate it from the sources of inspiration.

When we've discussed changing things further, the ideas we've disccussed include changing up the dial patterns a bit, and changing up the hands, the bezels, etc. It doesn't take much to avoid looking like a 1:1 design reproduction. Just changing the hands is often enough for people to overlook the fact that a design is 90% the same as something else.

We can make designs that share less with the Submariner/Seadweller and Pelagos, but still evoke the sources of inspiration in some ways, especially with the case proportions. And we can make those right alongside other models that are less differentiated.

At this point, we're just trying to figure out which direction we want to go in first, to get us off to a good start. If we start out with 4 to 6 different versions, I want them to be the versions that are going to have the largest appeal to the most people.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmmmmmm. 

I wanted to post a joke about how to make rehouts more "interesting" (joke being, more rolex-y with a slight twist), but actually it might be a legit good idea so I won't post it out here in the open, just in case.

Instead, imma just say "whatever you do, please at least consider if a box-sapphire would work". As you've probably noticed, almost everyone - micros and biggos alike - are moving to box sapphires now that the sapphire grinders have figured out how to do them. "Box sapphire > flat sapphire" is the modern day "sapphire > mineral".


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmmmmmm. 

I wanted to post a joke about how to make rehouts more "interesting" (joke being, more rolex-y with a slight twist), but actually it might be a legit good idea so I won't post it out here in the open, just in case.

Instead, imma just say "whatever you do, please at least consider if a box-sapphire would work". As you've probably noticed, almost everyone - micros and biggos alike - are moving to box sapphires now that the sapphire grinders have figured out how to do them. "Box sapphire > flat sapphire" is the modern day "sapphire > mineral".


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmmmmmm.
> 
> I wanted to post a joke about how to make rehouts more "interesting" (joke being, more rolex-y with a slight twist), but actually it might be a legit good idea so I won't post it out here in the open, just in case.
> 
> Instead, imma just say "whatever you do, please at least consider if a box-sapphire would work". As you've probably noticed, almost everyone - micros and biggos alike - are moving to box sapphires now that the sapphire grinders have figured out how to do them. "Box sapphire > flat sapphire" is the modern day "sapphire > mineral".





X2-Elijah said:


> Hmmmmmm.
> 
> I wanted to post a joke about how to make rehouts more "interesting" (joke being, more rolex-y with a slight twist), but actually it might be a legit good idea so I won't post it out here in the open, just in case.
> 
> Instead, imma just say "whatever you do, please at least consider if a box-sapphire would work". As you've probably noticed, almost everyone - micros and biggos alike - are moving to box sapphires now that the sapphire grinders have figured out how to do them. "Box sapphire > flat sapphire" is the modern day "sapphire > mineral".


I'm gonna give you 2 likes for the double post, then just drop it here:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Hmmmmmm.
> 
> I wanted to post a joke about how to make rehouts more "interesting" (joke being, more rolex-y with a slight twist), but actually it might be a legit good idea so I won't post it out here in the open, just in case.
> 
> Instead, imma just say "whatever you do, please at least consider if a box-sapphire would work". As you've probably noticed, almost everyone - micros and biggos alike - are moving to box sapphires now that the sapphire grinders have figured out how to do them. "Box sapphire > flat sapphire" is the modern day "sapphire > mineral".


Because common terms can be commonly misused, and end up meaning different things to different people, I prefer to avoid those terms, in favor of precise language.

We haven't made a watch with a flat sapphire crystal since the Acionna. Every sapphire crystal on every model since then has been domed. The current NTH Subs have a double-domed sapphire, albeit, the dome isn't dramatically pronounced, and the edge is minimally visible, if at all.

I'm aware that the dome on the Subs and some other models not being more pronounced leads to some people calling them flat. Those people are wrong, but that's an argument I don't feel like having over and over again.

"Box", in my mind, would mean a crystal with a pronounced vertical wall which transitions smoothly into a flat top surface, like the acrylic crystal on the Phantom. Its shape is like an overturned soup pot or frying pan.

I don't really like that for sapphire, due to the vertical surface increasing the possibility of the crystal being shattered when it gets knocked into something. It also affects the engineering, leading to additional WR measures and overall thickness. I also prefer the more organic shape of a domed, rather than flat top surface.

One of the things I think about with our designs is long-tern reliability, to include the likelihood of needing to replace parts which were damaged (needlessly) due to a design being compromised by the aesthetic preferences of the day. These are tool watches, not showpieces - work horses, not show ponies. We want them to be structurally sound enough to fulfill their intended purpose.

One way to approximate the same look with a simple domed crystal is to have a part of the crystal's edge exposed, above the bezel. We did that with the Tropics and the DevilRay. The more of the edge you expose, the more it looks like a "box" crystal.



















I think we'll do the same thing with this model, as it also helps to make the watch look thinner, by reducing the height of the case walls and/or the bezel grip, while leaving total thickness (and all the necessary clearances inside the case) unchanged.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> I'm gonna give you 2 likes for the double post, then just drop it here:


A perfect example of aesthetic preferences compromising structural integrity / fitness for purpose.

I doubt we'll ever do something so needlessly exaggerated with a material so unfit for that sort of application.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Need to break up the WoT. Finally got a new camera.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> A perfect example of aesthetic preferences compromising structural integrity / fitness for purpose.
> 
> I doubt we'll ever do something so needlessly exaggerated with a material so unfit for that sort of application.


1000% agree with you here Doc. The NTHs are all built like tanks. But I just love the look of it so much, couldn't resist!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> 1000% agree with you here Doc. The NTHs are all built like tanks. But I just love the look of it so much, couldn't resist!


Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the nice look of a big old domed crystal. They look nice.

It's just that as the designer/manufacturer, and the one ultimately responsible for long-term support of the product, I have to find the right balance of aesthetics, ergonomics, real-world functionality, long-term reliability, and practical considerations, like our ability to meet customers' expectations for support.

Pronounced domes like that raise concerns for me, similar to ceramic bezel inserts and other such nice-to-have's. They increase production cost, which puts upward pressure on prices (or downward pressure on margins, if I can't raise prices enough), and increase the challenge of figuring out how many replacement parts we need to stock, what we charge for replacements, and how much of that added cost can be built into the product.

Just to put some very hypothetical numbers on it, suppose a domed crystal like that increases the production cost by 5%, but also increases the post-sale support demand for replacements by 10%. I doubt I can build that into the retail price enough to compensate for the added costs and work it creates.

It also has a sales impact. Most people just look at the dimensions and specs, without considering the shape. That case is no longer 11.5mm thick with that big domed crystal (nor is it still 300m WR). How many would look at "13mm thick/100m WR" on the spec sheet, and move on to look at something else?

We try to balance the raw numbers against the aesthetic appeal, and find the happy middle ground as much as we can.


----------



## Champagne InHand (Dec 15, 2015)

docvail said:


> So....
> will sell like conjugal visits to guys serving life in prison.


Okay Doc you almost made me piss my pants laughing so hard on this. Especially funny if you've ever known or talked with somebody serving life.

Don't beat yourself up. I'm sure it will look badass in the final form.

I love the 42mm size but I have thick flat wrists.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Deledda (Jun 15, 2014)

docvail said:


> Watch geeks be like...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She has a nose?


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the nice look of a big old domed crystal. They look nice.
> 
> It's just that as the designer/manufacturer, and the one ultimately responsible for long-term support of the product, I have to find the right balance of aesthetics, ergonomics, real-world functionality, long-term reliability, and practical considerations, like our ability to meet customers' expectations for support.
> 
> ...


I totally got your point. I was surprised by how many comment around the net: 650$ and ghost date? No ETA? Another Rolex replica? None of them can see past the price and look into how good the watch case really is, not to mention added value like the limited production number and direct customer service. Imagine adding an acrylic crystal onto that... "I rather buy a Tissot/Hamilton/anything ETA *insert 'Swiss made' stuff here* for half the price"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Forever8895 said:


> I totally got your point. I was surprised by how many comment around the net: 650$ and ghost date? No ETA? Another Rolex replica? None of them can see past the price and look into how good the watch case really is, not to mention added value like the limited production number and direct customer service. Imagine adding an acrylic crystal onto that... "I rather buy a Tissot/Hamilton/anything ETA *insert 'Swiss made' stuff here* for half the price"


For certain there are many price/spec-zombies on the net, who seem to lack the ability to fairly assess value. I'm happy enough to not have them as customers.

In a recent post, I said that I don't think we could raise prices on the NTH Subs in their current form, despite the fact that demand currently outpaces our ability to keep up with supply.

One of the reasons I believe that - I see some brands which are selling something very similar, if not identical in specs and materials to the Subs, such that the production costs ought to be very similar, and yet their prices are higher.

Can you think of many, if any watches, which have the same specs/components, but which are priced above mine, which get discussed here, or in similar venues, with any regularity? I can't think of any.

For the most part, I think the higher prices on those watches puts them outside of what the majority of people consider to be a "fair" value. Most of the brands and models which get discussed a lot are those which would seem to offer better bang-for-the-buck (at least on paper, if all you want to compare is specs/components for the price), or those which are in "the next level up".

I have to be very careful about making any changes which are going to drive costs/prices higher, and consider if those changes are likely to increase the demand in a proportional way. If the changes increase my costs, but not the demand, then they're simply not feasible.

In a semi-related way...I don't want to get into the specific details, but at times when I had to address some quality issue with my OEM, it became apparent to me that how the vendors address such quality concerns depends on the amount paid for the components or assembled products. Two brands could find the same quality issue, but get two different responses from the vendor, based on the dynamics in place between vendor and brand.

Because we're paying for the best quality our vendors can deliver - and for the most part, we're getting it - we benefit from tighter QC standards, and any problems we find tend to get resolved quickly, and without any drama or argument. We might be able to lower our production costs by some small amount, but that would mean we'd have to accept a lower level of quality, and a more rigid stance from our vendors when those inevitable quality issues pop up.

I know not everyone will believe me, and many just want to assume that production costs are all more or less the same, just the sum of the costs of the constituent parts, but it's just not the case. Every single component can have a range of quality standards with a proportional range of costs.

When someone complains about what we charge, because they "can get a watch with the same components and specs for less", it really only appears that way to someone comparing spec sheets online. The specs may be the same, but there are demonstrable quality differences, as well as a measurable difference in how quality issues get addressed.


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> So....
> 
> The new case has some design elements which weren't too hard to draw (the hardest part was getting Rusty to do his damned job and draw them), but as I've alluded to before, just because you can draw something doesn't mean you can manufacture it.
> 
> ...


Doc, go with your gut, it seems to have steered you right so far...


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I know how you love wild suggestions and speculations, but what are your thoughts on mystery dials? I've sort of wondered why I dont see many of those except from Zodiac, so it would definitely be a way to stand out from the crowd that should not necessarily require a large amount of work.
I bring it up because I was pondering ways to make a watch seem to be "worth more" than the current price point without getting into making external material changes that I know you dont want due to durability concerns (personally having one of your pieces and seeing your process in developing them, I definitely see your watches as a cracking value already, but I'm not a tough market by any means if you make something that looks good to me). My first thought was using a gmt movement (split in two 12 hour cycles) to drive an aesthetically pleasant tide meter (which could be adjusted via the quickset if somebody really wants to keep track of tide over 1 day, not exactly accurate though, and also serve as an aesthetic enhancement). My second , wilder thought was to stick a linear polarizing filter disc on a gmt drive to create a dial that would reflect light differently depending on your position and the time of day, to drive the color OCD folks absolutely bonkers


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I get that box or "top hat" crystals are the "in" thing right now, but I think double domes still look the best, especially if they are paired with a bezel insert that also slopes upward a bit, giving you one clean arc from the center of the dome to the edge of the bezel. Not a fan of flat crystals though, at least not on divers. I don't mind the one on my SDGC017. Though much rarer, single domes can also be really cool. The Aevig Huldra has one, and the warping you get at extreme angles is really neat.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



skuzapo said:


> I know how you love wild suggestions and speculations, but what are your thoughts on mystery dials? I've sort of wondered why I dont see many of those except from Zodiac, so it would definitely be a way to stand out from the crowd that should not necessarily require a large amount of work.
> I bring it up because I was pondering ways to make a watch seem to be "worth more" than the current price point without getting into making external material changes that I know you dont want due to durability concerns (personally having one of your pieces and seeing your process in developing them, I definitely see your watches as a cracking value already, but I'm not a tough market by any means if you make something that looks good to me). My first thought was using a gmt movement (split in two 12 hour cycles) to drive an aesthetically pleasant tide meter (which could be adjusted via the quickset if somebody really wants to keep track of tide over 1 day, not exactly accurate though, and also serve as an aesthetic enhancement). My second , wilder thought was to stick a linear polarizing filter disc on a gmt drive to create a dial that would reflect light differently depending on your position and the time of day, to drive the color OCD folks absolutely bonkers


Uhm...

If the question is simply, "what do you think about 'mystery' dials?" - I think they're cool, in an admittedly gimmicky sort of way, and wouldn't mind having one. I love the Astrographic:









If the question is, "do you think they justify a price increase, one which might be more than enough to offset any increase in cost or complications of production?" - I don't know, but my fear would be that on top of the risk that we CAN'T increase the price enough to offset the added production cost, there's the additional risk that we have no way of predicting what the increase in complications we'll encounter before and after production might be.

Consider the fact that we've spent 2-3 weeks going back and forth with the factory over a very few, very small little details, in what is in every way a very un-complicated design. It's entirely possible we'll spend 2-3 months dealing with the back-and-forth over a mystery dial's execution.

I'm not expecting any increase in the returns rate which would stem from the details we're arguing over now, but I would not be surprised if we saw an increased need for support of a mystery dial, where the engineering is more complex, and there's less margin for error.

To give a real-life example - we had some of the NTH Tropics come back because the internal bezel was rubbing against the dial. We thoroughly reviewed the case engineering, and pulled all the cases which came back to us apart, looking for the error, and never found it.

None of them was incorrectly assembled, and there was no clear flaw in the case design going into production.

We finally determined that the rubbing was simply because one or more parts might be larger than spec, by a matter of nanometers, literally, small fractions of a millimeter. We simply didn't have enough clearance between parts built into that design, to allow for the parts to be out of spec as much as they turned out to be.

We wanted to have the absolute minimum clearances for the sake of keeping the case thin, and we paid for it later, with a higher returns rate.

Likewise, with his first model, the quartz Corvid, Chip from Aevig discovered that the factory engineers failed to accurately calculate the torque required to motivate the hands based on their length, and/or the factory failed to adequately test the movements in QC. Some of the movements didn't have enough torque, and as a result the watches ran slow.

If we have those sorts of problems with something as seemingly straightforward as an internal bezel, or something as fundamental to a watch as the turning of the handset, imagine the complexity involved in developing our own proprietary mystery dial, or something equally as out of the ordinary.

It's not just the added cost/complexity on the surface, it's also the added expectations of the market. Let's say I had to increase the cost by $100, to $750. How many will say, "for that much money, I have to have a Swiss movement."?

Too many. The "Swiss" movement will cost more, AND, to add insult to injury, it won't perform as well, or be as reliable, and we'll have an additional returns rate because of it.

Why do I need to do all that, and go through all that, when I can't make 3-hand Subs (with Miyota movements) fast enough to keep them in stock at our current prices?

The question is rhetorical, not argumentative. It's one every idea has to answer in order for me to consider it. It's integral to the idea of product feasibility. It's not enough for me to know that people like bronze/titanium, or GMT's, or chronos. I have to be able to determine that the product can be sold at the right price, and with the right pace, to rationalize the investment in its development and production.

*Fun Fact/True Story* - This is why I don't like doing photography with prototypes. Check out the 12-marker on Zodiac's stock photos of the Astrographic:









That's a shame. They've got retailers using that image, yet I couldn't find any real-world photos showing the marker being cockeyed like that. You never get those problems when you use 3D illustrations instead of photos.


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

I just see an oddball technology/ design being used by a single relatively large company in a reasonable priced watch and sort of wondered why there arent many other examples (or well, any that I know of outside of ridiculous expensive watches). I guess the same funky 60s-70s gimmickiness that draws me to it was sort of the answer to that. I just like to hear how you work through any sort of design problem though.

I see something that would create a watch with no direct competitors (if it was executed in an oysteresque case) and sort of a captive market that couldn't just run to an option out there for a few hundred less, but you're right I guess a "captive market" of a few goofballs wouldnt justify the development time working on the outside of the case to clear the dials. I would think on the movement side it would be relatively simple as long as they are light-if anything they should be balanced better than a traditional hand


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Blah blah blah blah ...

BOOM! Bahia










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

skuzapo said:


> I just see an oddball technology/ design being used by a single relatively large company in a reasonable priced watch and sort of wondered why there arent many other examples (or well, any that I know of outside of ridiculous expensive watches). I guess the same funky 60s-70s gimmickiness that draws me to it was sort of the answer to that. I just like to hear how you work through any sort of design problem though.
> 
> I see something that would create a watch with no direct competitors (if it was executed in an oysteresque case) and sort of a captive market that couldn't just run to an option out there for a few hundred less, but you're right I guess a "captive market" of a few goofballs wouldnt justify the development time working on the outside of the case to clear the dials. I would think on the movement side it would be relatively simple as long as they are light-if anything they should be balanced better than a traditional hand


I'm frequently concerned my walls-of-text read as "angry". Trust me, I'm not. As long as I've got the time available, I don't mind taking a walk down "what if" street.

About 4-5 years back, Rusty and I were trying to work through how we'd execute on a design sort of like the Seiko "Discus Burger".









I don't remember exactly how our concept differed from the Seiko, only that it did differ in some way, and in my mind, our idea was "better". There were exposed gears and such, above the dial, all actuated by the hands-posts.

At that time, we hadn't yet learned what we now know about clearances and such, nor did we know anything at all about the engineering which would answer questions about whether or not our design would even work - questions about how much torque it would require versus the weight and friction of the gears we envisioned, etc.

It was one of those ideas that was fun to think about, for $hlts and giggles, but eventually we scrapped the idea, mostly because we didn't know if it would work, didn't have the resources to do the necessary R&D, didn't have a manufacturing partner with obvious expertise, and weren't sure if it would even be a strong enough seller to justify further development.

Instead, we just made another 3-hand watch. That worked out pretty well.

I've had a design for a chrono, what I was calling "Project Hydra", going back about the same length of time. It's an incredibly ambitious design, but I've no urge to pursue it at the moment, because it's so complex that I'm not even sure it can be made as I've designed it, and because the choices in movements just don't warrant its development.

I've done research into alternative metals. I found what I believe would be the best material to use for a watch case, better than all other current choices. I haven't pursued its use, because it would come with a cost/price increase. The increase certainly seems reasonable enough for the added value we'd get with the material, but that higher cost/price would force me to sell the watch outside the price/value range where I think we need to stay if we want to continue our current growth rate.

My general point here is that there are some really cool things we *could* do, conceivably, but which we don't do, because the economics of these ideas just don't make sense for a business that is still as small as mine is. We simply don't yet have the scale necessary to pursue every idea which comes out of left field.

In my mind, there's a progression we have to go through, just like you have to crawl before you walk, and walk before you run. I have to go through a number of stages before we're ready to start doing narrow-niche, gimmicky sorts of projects.

I also think it's not just about whether or not my business is ready, but also about whether or not the market is ready. The market still has preferences which do not align with my reality as a manufacturer. I know certain components are better choices, even if the market doesn't.

I know a modestly domed sapphire is a better all-around choice than a box acrylic crystal. I know steel inserts are a better all-around choice than ceramic or sapphire. I know Japanese movements are more reliable than anything Swiss at twice the price.

There are some choices I make despite what I know the market prefers, but other choices I can't make, because the business case for them can't be made. I'm okay if the market disagrees with me, so long as my business can afford for the market to disagree with me.

When the market's "wisdom" catches up to mine, hopefully I'll be in a better position to capitalize on it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

We need to let sleeping dogs lie. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LogisticsCzar (Jun 23, 2017)

hwa said:


> We need to let sleeping dogs lie.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aw you could at least tickle them toes though, how can you not?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Dp


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Been so pleased with the NTH subs I have, for the time being have decided not to get anymore at this point, just enjoy what I have. 

The new Odin (sorta Omega homages) are tempting, but just got a closer Omega homage in the Helson SM300. 

Any new NTH are going to have to be very compelling to crack the wallet open. That said, the Navario Sauro (Zerograph homage) really was stunning and caused the wallet to spring open, so it could happen.

Nothing wrong with close homages.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Wrt mystery dials:

they look a lot less cool after a year or so when the transparent plastic holding the "mystery hand" turns yellow from sun/UV and collects various residues.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

Unsolicited suggestion for the next watch design- instead of a diving bezel, make a compass one. Or, make a rotating bezel that accepts inserts, and sell both/either/or. Take my money?


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

Any thoughts or plans for another Nazario release after the current? I liked the Sauro and this blue version looks solid, albeit loud, looking forward to the photos. I wonder how a tropical dial with cream lume would render. just a thought. 

Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Time for:

Scorpene Blue/Nick Mankey Hook Strap combo, this is probably the most comfortable watch/strap mix that I have ever worn. A bit of a fiddle setting it up, but sure as hell, it beats any nato hands down:

















Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

RuggerAl said:


> Unsolicited suggestion for the next watch design- instead of a diving bezel, make a compass one. Or, make a rotating bezel that accepts inserts, and sell both/either/or. Take my money?


Yes! Spare parts! You can make pennies while spending dollars!

I talked him into it once. Pretty sure thats when i went from friend to frenemy. Or maybe that made me straight enemy, and it was the subs that got me back to the plus side of the ledger. Hard to remember.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

If not specs, can we order a wall of text, please?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Wrt mystery dials:
> 
> they look a lot less cool after a year or so when the transparent plastic holding the "mystery hand" turns yellow from sun/UV and collects various residues.


Stuff like that - things I don't anticipate - is another reason I like to stay in my lane. I can envision guys emailing me a year after they bought the watch to demand I resolve that sort of issue under warranty, and putting me on full blast if I don't.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> Unsolicited suggestion for the next watch design- instead of a diving bezel, make a compass one. Or, make a rotating bezel that accepts inserts, and sell both/either/or. Take my money?


I'll sell you any part you want. They cost $650 each, and will ship with all the other parts you need to make a watch. We've already done the assembly for you. You're welcome.



tim_herremans said:


> Any thoughts or plans for another Nazario release after the current? I liked the Sauro and this blue version looks solid, albeit loud, looking forward to the photos. I wonder how a tropical dial with cream lume would render. just a thought.
> 
> Thank you.


Funny you ask. Just this past week, we started going through some ideas for other versions of the Nazario. I think we've settled on which one will be next, and we're debating what to do for the one after that.

We'll reveal the next one soon.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Stuff like that - things I don't anticipate - is another reason I like to stay in my lane. I can envision guys emailing me a year after they bought the watch to demand I resolve that sort of issue under warranty, and putting me on full blast if I don't.


I seriously doubt that's an across the board issue with mystery dials. Here's a 1971 Zodiac that still looks plenty mysterious.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yuck. That thing's foggier than a finnish sauna.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Yeah. Fuglier, too.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

hwa said:


> Yes! Spare parts! You can make pennies while spending dollars!
> 
> I talked him into it once. Pretty sure thats when i went from friend to frenemy. Or maybe that made me straight enemy, and it was the subs that got me back to the plus side of the ledger. Hard to remember.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well then, just compass inserts, thus, no spare parts.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I was going to quote something you said a few posts back, Doc, but the gist of it was about the practicality of those box crystals. I've never actually seen a watch in person with one of those; I don't think I like the aesthetic but maybe it's neater on the wrist.

However, it would seem that the last thing one would want is to have the crystal stick out from the metal surrounding it. How do you possibly keep from banging that into something and shattering it?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

It's not that big of an issue. I've had (for various lengths of time) a lot of watches with sticky-outy-crystals, such as steinhart ocean 1 bronze(twice), bulova moonwatch, modded seiko turtle, CW c65 diver (twice), etc. Some of 'em had gotten a few bangs, without any damage to the crystals. Just like a few aforementioned things, imo the "oh no crystal might shatter" is a needlessly inflated fear.

For instance. Steinhart ocean 1s have had that boxy-raised crystal for years (until mid-2018 when they changed to boring dome instead). How many reports of shattered steinhart ocean 1 crystals have there been on WUS since Steinhart came out with that watch? Afaik 0...


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ Great point.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'll sell you any part you want. They cost $650 each, and will ship with all the other parts you need to make a watch. We've already done the assembly for you. You're welcome.


Excellent! I'll take one Amphion Modern dial, please.


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

NTH Dolphin









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Excellent! I'll take one Amphion Modern dial, please.


That part is not currently available, sorry.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tell us what you think about a bigger NTH Sub - It's a POLL!!!

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/NV3Z8XN


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Tell us what you think about a bigger NTH Sub - It's a POLL!!!


42mm yes, 44mm no, is not an option on the survey.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

Avo said:


> 42mm yes, 44mm no, is not an option on the survey.


42 yeah

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> 42mm yes, 44mm no, is not an option on the survey.


The case is 41.75mm. The bezel is 43.75mm.

It's not an option because we've already designed the case, with those dimensions.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I'd prefer a 41.75 case with a 43.75 bezel..

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



captainmorbid said:


> I'd prefer a 41.75 case with a 43.75 bezel..
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


I've got good news...


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)




----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

3WR said:


> Excellent! I'll take one Amphion Modern dial, please.


There's one on WatchRecon right now. What are you waiting for?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

hwa said:


> There's one on WatchRecon right now. What are you waiting for?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, I'm all too aware. Thanks. It is on the next browser tab over from this thread. For an Amphion, I think I'd prefer a date version. Plus, if I got serious about buying it, I'd be forced to study every picture I could find of every version to confirm my initial impression that Modern is my favorite flavor of Amphion.

I'd love to see one of the vintage dials in person. The texture looks a little much for my taste in a lot of photos. But I wonder if those photos intentionally highlight the texture and if it might be more mellow in person.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Just get the Amphion Modern with date while gettin' is good. Think only 50 of them were made.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Just get the Amphion Modern with date while gettin' is good.


----------



## Digital_1 (Jan 6, 2014)

Absolutely love my Skipjack. Any plans on making more of the Nazario Sauro white dial?


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> Just get the Amphion Modern with date while gettin' is good. Think only 50 of them were made.


Wow. Nice trio! Great to see them all next to each other. The vintage ones look great in that shot.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

3WR said:


> Wow. Nice trio! Great to see them all next to each other. The vintage ones look great in that shot.


Different perspectives


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I've got good news...


Whew... I was worried that I was being overly specific...

Let's see if you can guess lug to lug..

And bonus pints for lug width..

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Tell us what you think about a bigger NTH Sub - It's a POLL!!!
> 
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/NV3Z8XN
> 
> View attachment 13962189


That's an ashtray.
This is a pole!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

"X-Rage"? pfffffft


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Tell us what you think about a bigger NTH Sub - It's a POLL!!!
> 
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/NV3Z8XN
> 
> View attachment 13962189


Done. I'm the idiot who asked for a bronzo....

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> The case is 41.75mm. The bezel is 43.75mm.


Maybe the survey should make that clear?

I voted yes on the survey, but a 43.75 bezel is likely bigger than I would go for.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I strongly feel that a 43.68 mm bezel is the exact widest allowable width.
43.75 will be comically oversized, like a clown watch, whereas 43.68 is the biologically valid sweet spot of perfection.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> I strongly feel that a 43.68 mm bezel is the exact widest allowable width.
> 43.75 will be comically oversized, like a clown watch, whereas 43.68 is the biologically valid sweet spot of perfection.


References and peer reviewed scientific studies supporting this outrageous allegation please.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Of course, here you go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Of course, here you go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio


Well that works for me! Because science, and math physics stuff.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



captainmorbid said:


> Whew... I was worried that I was being overly specific...
> 
> Let's see if you can guess lug to lug..
> 
> ...


51mm?

What do I win?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Done. I'm the idiot who asked for a bronzo....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


You need to aim higher.

I've done *WAY* more idiotic things.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Maybe the survey should make that clear?
> 
> I voted yes on the survey, but a 43.75 bezel is likely bigger than I would go for.


It's a 41.75mm case.

Just how I see it - if the case and bezel were the same diameter, I'd state the number. Eventually, I'll have to figure out how to make sure people understand what they're buying before they get it, but for now, I think an argument could be made for using one or the other figure (or an average of the two - 42.75mm?), and I'd rather people not get overly fixated on either of them.

So...I said 42mm-44mm, which is close enough, for now. My hope is that guys who'd prefer 42 will look at the case diameter/lug length, and guys who'd prefer a 43/44 will focus on the bezel diameter.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> 51mm?
> 
> What do I win?


In 3-5 months, cash! Hopefully, with a beneficial margin..

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)




----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

For those of you who don't remember, there was life before the Subs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



captainmorbid said:


> In 3-5 months, cash! Hopefully, with a beneficial margin..
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


I like your optimism and plucky spirit, but 3-5 months ain't gonna git 'r done.

We're not even done designing it yet. It'll take 4-5 months to produce it, assuming we skip prototyping (which we may).

I still haven't even gotten the case design back from them yet, so...don't start that clock just yet.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I like your optimism and plucky spirit, but 3-5 months ain't gonna git 'r done.
> 
> We're not even done designing it yet. It'll take 4-5 months to produce it, assuming we skip prototyping (which we may).
> 
> I still haven't even gotten the case design back from them yet, so...don't start that clock just yet.


I'll be here. Longer to save the shekels..

Positive spin, now with slightly diminished optimism.

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just don't lose the plucky.

Stay gold, Ponyboy.


Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## LogisticsCzar (Jun 23, 2017)

tim_herremans said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Let me guess green is buy blue is sell?


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those who may not be aware of it, there's a new YouTube channel just launched, which will feature content from multiple contributors. My contribution is a series called "Doc's House Calls". The first installment is a live video chat with Phil Rodenbeck of Visitor, and it just went live.

Playlist here - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8hB30v4e5WEu02vO7yp6K03Hy0ZZxTtv


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> For those who may not be aware of it, there's a new YouTube channel just launched, which will feature content from multiple contributors. My contribution is a series called "Doc's House Calls". The first installment is a live video chat with Phil Rodenbeck of Visitor, and it just went live.
> 
> Playlist here - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8hB30v4e5WEu02vO7yp6K03Hy0ZZxTtv


Looking forward to more content!

The NTH logo intro visual effects reminds me of Anonymous haha


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Looking forward to more content!
> 
> The NTH logo intro visual effects reminds me of Anonymous haha


Cheers.

Next episode is with the guys from Nodus, Wes and Cullen.

These first two episodes were recorded late last summer, so some of the discussion is a little out-of-date. The channel was supposed to launch in September, then it was October, then November, then January...and here we are. It just went live.

I'm working on upgrading the video/audio recording setup in my office. The sound quality and volume balance on the first two episodes isn't great, and we had no way of knowing until after the recording ended, so we're learning what works through trial and error.

I've got two other brands lined up, and a half dozen feelers out to others. My guess is that now that the channel is live, it'll be easier for brand owners to make the time, and see the value in it.

Hopefully we'll be able to produce two episodes a month without me running out of people to talk to. I'm already thinking I may switch things up by doing some calls with prominent watch-geeks - guys with big IG followings, guys who have some sort of "claim to fame", etc.

My understanding is that there are about a half dozen different contributors lined up so far.

John Keil and Anthony Koslowski (formerly of Bremont) will do most of the Watch With Us podcasts, and I think Anthony will also be doing some sort of "man about town" sort of metrosexual series - young, fashionable guy riffs about which shoes go with which watch, or something like that.

I think we've got a guy planning to do an "industry news" series, one or two reviewers, one or two guys focused on higher-end brands (I think Bremont and/or Tudor may be involved), and I think they're looking for someone to focus on the Seiko/Citizen/Orient stuff.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Cheers.
> 
> Next episode is with the guys from Nodus, Wes and Cullen.
> 
> ...


Very cool. An interview with Sergio from Direnzo would be really interesting. Also, I'm sure our local boys from Vero would be up for it as well.


----------



## Digital_1 (Jan 6, 2014)

Doc, on the NTH website blog I saw mention of a "first-ever collaboration with an independent co-designer/customizer (more details to follow soon)." Any information you can share on this one?


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

content discussions on watches...that definitely works!









and go see your nth retailer while you're at it, mine was courtesy of
https://www.seriouswatches.com/collections/nth


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Digital_1 said:


> Doc, on the NTH website blog I saw mention of a "first-ever collaboration with an independent co-designer/customizer (more details to follow soon)." Any information you can share on this one?


Not yet, but soon.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

low light does seem to bring out the best in the gilt dials.



redzebra said:


> View attachment 13976367
> 
> 
> View attachment 13976369


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> For those who may not be aware of it, there's a new YouTube channel just launched, which will feature content from multiple contributors. My contribution is a series called "Doc's House Calls". The first installment is a live video chat with Phil Rodenbeck of Visitor, and it just went live.
> 
> Playlist here - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8hB30v4e5WEu02vO7yp6K03Hy0ZZxTtv


Very enjoyable and insightful, plus a great production.

Can't wait for the interview with the guy who makes the Subs........

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## captaincaveman79 (Feb 19, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you feel the full lume dial is easier to read? I had a Santa Fe but the time was unreadable in the middle of the night due to the lumed hands which blended into the dial. Do the blacked out hands contrast enough with the lume dial to be legible at, say, 3am?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

captaincaveman79 said:


> Do you feel the full lume dial is easier to read? I had a Santa Fe but the time was unreadable in the middle of the night due to the lumed hands which blended into the dial. Do the blacked out hands contrast enough with the lume dial to be legible at, say, 3am?


I also previously owned the Santa fe. I had no real complaints about it however I would say that yes the contrast better on this one.

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## captaincaveman79 (Feb 19, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> I also previously owned the Santa fe. I had no real complaints about it however I would say that yes the contrast better on this one.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk


Ok good to know. Now do you think it is easier to read than a conventional dial? I like the idea of full lume and they glow like a spotlight at full charge but I found, with the SF, that a regular dial was still better at telling the time after the initial burst of brightness and a few hours time had passed.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Been wearing my new Zelos Mako bronze the past couple weeks, but always nice to throw the slim NTH back on wrist.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

Doc
A quick note to say I enjoyed watching your chat with Visitor.
I did not know about the proprietor's background in automotive design, but now that I know that, I can see how that shows up in his watches.
I likened that segment of your chat to an author talking about a book or a director talking about a film.

Of the episodes you mentioned that are coming up, I look forward to the one with Aevig.
I know you are fond of the Huldra as I am, so do explore with him how that came about and how it was developed if you would.

Congrats on this new venture.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

So. According to watchgauge, the new subs are coming in may?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

A big thanks to Aaron for giving up the Blue dial C300, luvvem both, but which one to wear today???









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redzebra said:


> Doc
> A quick note to say I enjoyed watching your chat with Visitor.
> I did not know about the proprietor's background in automotive design, but now that I know that, I can see how that shows up in his watches.
> I likened that segment of your chat to an author talking about a book or a director talking about a film.
> ...


Cheers.

I've been likening it to "Comedians in cars getting coffee". It's basically the same thing, except no comedians, no cars, and no coffee.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> So. According to watchgauge, the new subs are coming in may?


According to NTH, they're coming in April/May.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Digital_1 said:


> Doc, on the NTH website blog I saw mention of a "first-ever collaboration with an independent co-designer/customizer (more details to follow soon)." Any information you can share on this one?





docvail said:


> Not yet, but soon.


The collaborator is working out the details of some things he wants to do for the launch. And we're trying to narrow down the time frame of when the actual watches will be delivered.

Because of the size and complexity of our current production, we're expecting some pieces to be available in April, some in May, and maybe a few not until June (hence, "April/May"). But we're not yet certain which pieces we'll be getting when.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Digital_1 said:


> Absolutely love my Skipjack. Any plans on making more of the Nazario Sauro white dial?


We've got an all-new version of the Nazario planned for the next production, but we'll also be making some more of the white Nazario Sauro.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

docvail said:


> We've got an all-new version of the Nazario planned for the next production, but we'll also be making some more of the white Nazario Sauro.


Great to hear.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Digital_1 (Jan 6, 2014)

docvail said:


> We've got an all-new version of the Nazario planned for the next production, but we'll also be making some more of the white Nazario Sauro.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


That is great news Doc. Thank you.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Digital_1 said:


> That is great news Doc. Thank you.


Thank John Keil. I was willing to let the Cali dial Sub idea die, but he gave it mouth to mouth.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## LogusE (Jan 2, 2019)

Hi all, first time posting here. I sadly have to let go of my nth nacken modern blue w no date. Was wondering if there are any interested takers?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LogusE said:


> Hi all, first time posting here. I sadly have to let go of my nth nacken modern blue w no date. Was wondering if there are any interested takers?


Welcome to the forum and the thread.

Unfortunately, forum rules prohibit sales activity anywhere but the sales section of the forum. I've done that same "anyone interested" thing, and been warned by the moderators.

Here's a link to the sales section. I think you need at least 100 posts before you can post pics, and probably before you can post a sales thread. In the meantime, I'd try eBay.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

With really hot items, like the various Näckens (especially of the blue persuasion), listing them on an auction site like ebay might not be a bad idea.

The demand for NTH näckens is strong enough, a 7-day ad ending on a sunday afternoon will draw in a lot of people. Sure, ebay and paypal will take their share, but even with that, it might be a higher net gain than what people on f29 are willing to pay*.

*- anecdotal evidence, but exactly this happened with my bulova moonwatch last week. Put up on f29 like a month ago, asking for €300 (reasonable considering the eu prices), absolutely nothing aside from an €200 lowball... I decided to list in on ebay instead, and last week, it sold on ebay for *just _over_ €300*. F29 of late has a very, very closed-pockets-minded community.


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> *- anecdotal evidence, but exactly this happened with my bulova moonwatch last week. Put up on f29 like a month ago, asking for €300 (reasonable considering the eu prices), absolutely nothing aside from an €200 lowball... I decided to list in on ebay instead, and last week, it sold on ebay for *just _over_ €300*. F29 of late has a very, very closed-pockets-minded community.


I put my new Lorier up for sale here for $420, no takers other than a few lower offers (which I actually would've agreed to if they were in stock). Sold on the bay in 1 day for $600 .

Sometimes we forget how small this community is.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm sure I'll regret posting this, but here goes...

As truly thankful as I am for this forum and all the watch-geeks who populate it, watch-geeks as a group are a cruel, hypercritical, and often miserly audience. I've been blown away by the clear difference seen between listings on f29 and eBay recently. 

I only pay attention to it because I try to keep an eye on the used market for NTH's, just to see how the brand is doing there. Watches which routinely sell for $400-$500 on f29 have repeatedly sold for $600-$700 on eBay. 

Don't get me wrong, I hate eBay, generally, for many reasons, including the volume of scammers, the impenetrable bureaucracy of dispute resolution, the fees, the lack of user-friendliness in their system, etc. 

But, let's be honest - even if the vast majority of transactions on f29 go smoothly, if not downright friendly, there are still many horror stories, as evidenced by the frequent catfights which break out in the buyer/seller feedback section, some of which will occasionally carry over to other sub-forums.

None of which is to say eBay guarantees a good result. I was looking at some past sales last night, and saw that there can be a $200 swing between sales of identical pieces, with listings only a few weeks apart. The low end of the eBay range seems to be the low-to-average range for f29.

Maybe some of the things I don't like about eBay are the same things which drive higher sales prices - the fact that sales are often auctions, the time-limit on listings, the sheer volume of traffic on that site, etc.

If you're a chronic flipper, I'd suggest buying on f29 but selling on eBay.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The auction format (and a properly chosen ending-time) is crucial to selling on ebay. And, you're right to mention all the downsides it has. For sellers, it's a bigger risk and much more fee-laden choice to sell on ebay, vs. doing it on f29. You always gotta balance the risk/fees vs. the higher gross price you get...

Or, from another aspect, when dealing with f29 nonsense gets too much, then ebay is a good way to regain some sense of normalcy in the world. At least until someone claims "item not as described" and sends you back a rock in a box using the return shipping label you pay for.

As for NTH... imma just say this: I'm very very happy to see the brand do well enough to command space on multiple online retailers, have a number of recurring and sold-out models, not do multi-month-long preorders, and have a solid reputation & reviews on youtube. Throughout the past year, from the sidelines it looked (and looks) like NTH is finding a nice, solid footing for itself.

P.S. Sixth time's the charm


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

househalfman said:


> I put my new Lorier up for sale here for $420, no takers other than a few lower offers (which I actually would've agreed to if they were in stock). Sold on the bay in 1 day for $600 .
> 
> Sometimes we forget how small this community is.


Similar story with my Zodiac ZO9204. I wanted around $500 for it, which is what I put into it. I put it up for sale here and it sat for a couple of weeks, usual one or two bites (I know you said $500, but will you take $350?) etc. Put it on eBay, Sold at like $525 or something like that. No issues.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Or, from another aspect, when dealing with f29 nonsense gets too much, then ebay is a good way to regain some sense of normalcy in the world. At least until someone claims "item not as described" and sends you back a rock in a box using the return shipping label you pay for.


There are things you can do to avoid those types of situations, especially with more expensive watches. Take date stamped pictures showing it in the shipping box for one. You can even take a shot of it on the counter at the post office or UPS store before you close it up with shipping tape. Then ship insured and signature required. eBay doesn't let you be as strict with buyer requirements as I would like - I think the best you can do is to have it automatically block buyers with more than one complaint in the last month which really isn't good enough. If you're willing to go in manually though, it's easy enough to watch your auction and remove buyers with 0 feedback and brand new accounts if you're selling an expensive watch. Somebody that has an account that's several years old with 200+ feedback and a 100% rating I don't really worry about.


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Whoops! Wrong thread. Keep it up!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Sonic_driftwood said:


> Whoops! Wrong thread. Keep it up!


TWSS.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I got sucked into another internet argument today, and almost got sucked into yet another, second argument. 

Of all the ways I amaze myself (and believe me, the ways are many), nothing amazes me more than the fact I keep walking into the same hornets' nest, repeatedly. 

It always starts out with good intentions. I'll see some ongoing discussion, and think, "I have knowledge which will add clarity here. I want to help."

That lasts about ten seconds, until someone wants to argue with me about something I've said. Then it's off to the races with the usual back-and-forth. Inevitably, when it's clear that logic, reason, and very often, hard-and-fast proof are on my side, the personal attacks start. 

"You're unhinged, taking it all personally," etc. If you ever see someone doing that, know that they're out of ideas, and simply can't support anything they've been saying. 

I think I may start shifting more of my focus to blogging, and less time engaging on forums and social media. The ability to carry on a dialogue is pointless when the dialogues can't be constrained the way they can in the real world, where people feel less emboldened to spout nonsense and hurl invective when they disagree. 

The good news for you all is you'll still get to enjoy the walls-of-text, but without the pages-on-end of silly debate.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Also, free meme. I created this myself (after yet another stupid internet argument - the source for so many of my best memes). I'm supposed to charge $1 for my watch-meme-of-the-month, but it's just us girls, so...here, free meme.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I got sucked into another internet argument today, and almost got sucked into yet another, second argument.
> 
> Of all the ways I amaze myself (and believe me, the ways are many), nothing amazes me more than the fact I keep walking into the same hornets' nest, repeatedly.
> 
> ...







An actual re-enactment of the internet, from the futurist group Monty Python circa 1972...

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


Pics like that make me miss my Phantom.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Pics like that make me miss my Phantom.


It's a bloody fine watch.

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> I got sucked into another internet argument today, and almost got sucked into yet another, second argument.


Means you haven't given up hope yet...

Every now and then I read a stupid comment that I feel like commenting/correcting, (mostly on IT forums) because the person is clearly misinforming anyone who reads that.

I proceed to type my answer and before I press "Send" I read another time through it.

I realize that I'll get dragged into a discussion that always ends the same way and I waste time through it, so I delete the text and close the tab. This works out 90% of the time.

Anyway, bought some strawberries today!


----------



## sobwanhoser (Feb 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> I got sucked into another internet argument today, and almost got sucked into yet another, second argument....
> 
> I think I may start shifting more of my focus to blogging, and less time engaging on forums and social media. The ability to carry on a dialogue is pointless when the dialogues can't be constrained the way they can in the real world, where people feel less emboldened to spout nonsense and hurl invective when they disagree.
> 
> The good news for you all is you'll still get to enjoy the walls-of-text, but without the pages-on-end of silly debate.


https://tenor.com/view/charlie-brown-fail-lucy-sports-football-gif-4460715

Unfortunately (for you! , I think a big part of your "persona" is related to your presence on forums and your interaction with watch fanatics on social media...for better or worse.
Nobody wants walls of one-sided text, no matter how logical it might be...the silly debate is gold Doc!, GOLD!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Blogging in text form is a dead-end, unfortunately. Ain't nobody got time to pay attention to that. 
Doing more appearances on youtube might be good for you, doc - especially on a podcast format where you literally can have a civil discussion. It'll get a bigger reach than a text blog.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

I have a joke ready about how if a certain watchmaker with extreme OCD spent even one third the time Doc does on this forum, people would be waiting 40 years for delivery of their watches instead of 9.

Let me know when you want to hear it ;-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Blogging in text form is a dead-end, unfortunately. Ain't nobody got time to pay attention to that.
> Doing more appearances on youtube might be good for you, doc - especially on a podcast format where you literally can have a civil discussion. It'll get a bigger reach than a text blog.


I'd like to do more podcasts and/or video, but it's hard.

Writing comes easier to me. I can quickly bang out a blog post whenever inspiration hits. I can add to, edit and have a post reviewed before it goes live. With podcasts and tube videos, you basically get one take, and you have to be on, even if you're not feeling it. Writing requires no special equipment to appear professional.

Personally, I prefer to read a blog post than watch a video or listen to a podcast. I can skim for details or go back and re-read if I want. Not as easy to do with analog recordings.

My primary means of engagement has been forums and FB. It's all written. I feel like we'd all be better off if I just put it all in my blog, so that anyone can point to it, rather than having to re-litigate the same discussion repeatedly. I can then restrict my forum and FB participation to shorter posts, mostly responding to people's questions.

I'm really tired of the silliness of most online arguments. Blogging would let me state my case in an organized, dispassionate way, and avoid the needless back and forth which always seems to end up in snarky insults from one or both sides.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> I'd like to do more podcasts and/or video, but it's hard.
> 
> Writing comes easier to me. I can quickly bang out a blog post whenever inspiration hits. I can add to, edit and have a post reviewed before it goes live. With podcasts and tube videos, you basically get one take, and you have to be on, even if you're not feeling it. Writing requires no special equipment to appear professional.
> 
> ...


Just make sure to disable the comment section on your blog posts.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Fair points. 

Imo, you would still really benefit from a podcast format. Here's why:

A lot of your really really good posts have come as reactions to an existing discussion, or as responses to someone or something. 
With a text blog format, firstly, you lose that impetus, and the text comes across as less conversational and more didactical. This may invite a different type of scrutiny or perception from readers. Secondly, all that bickering would still pop up, probably somewhere on WUS or FB or whatever, as "response". The benefit, sure, is that you're no longer wasting time on that. But it wouldn't eliminate the misinformation. Thirdly... again, some of your best posts have come from reacting to other people. The blog format loses that.

The podcast format, imo, solves at least the first and third points in a positive way - you get at least one more person, hopefully knowledgeable AND positively disposed (i.e. not a hater/troll) AND interested in exploring the points you make. That person may help to direct the discussion in an interesting way, to explore some aspects that will appeal to the regular listener that you'd otherwise skip over... And, since the presentation format is a casual discussion (NOT a debate!), you have a stronger claim about having enabled a (reasonable) discussion from the outset.

Of course, you do you. I get that the downsides you mention with podcasting are real, and there is some added difficulty in ensuring a base level of audio quality* on top of everything else.

It's just that, well, one of your major, major strengths is your persona and your ability to discuss and respond. It would be unfortunate to lose that (at least from a biased consumer perspective... Idk what the implications on business of all this would even be - that's an analysis I don't even want to begin contemplating).


*- easiest way for you: 
- Have a decent-ish usb microphone (meaning, $30 or so and up is enough) with any kind of audio-recorder-app on pc, OR your phone with dictophone app next to you.
- Earbuds, headphones, or earbugs during the discussion, AND the dictophone app also running to record what you say independent of Skype/Zoom/etc.
- After the call, email your recording to the other side, let them sync it up.

In a podcast, you'd be the guest with the industry angle - you shouldn't do too much of the technical stuff of cutting it all together. The above process adds maybe extra 30-60 minutes for whoever is splicing the podcast together and uploading to youtube, maybe 5-10 minutes extra for you to email the recording... but you instantly get near-studio quality, making the audience, especially accidental audience, so much more open & willing to hear what you're saying.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheJohnP said:


> Just make sure to disable the comment section on your blog posts.


The blog is built into my website. There's no comments section.

I'll probably end up disabling comments on any YT videos we do.

One thing I appreciate about FB is the lack of anonymity. If someone comments, you see their name (whatever name they're using), you can see their profile, and look at their post history within a group. You get a sense for who's a troll and who's not.

I think most blogs should turn commenting off. Seth Godin is arguably the most successful blogger, ever, and made a succinct yet persuasive case for why his blog doesn't have comments - https://seths.blog/2006/06/why_i_dont_have/ :

_"I feel compelled to clarify or to answer every objection or to point out every flaw in reasoning. Second, it takes way too much of my time to even think about them, never mind curate them. And finally, and most important for you, it permanently changes the way I write. Instead of writing for everyone, I find myself writing in anticipation of the commenters."_

Yeah, I know all those feels.

My walls-o-text are basically an attempt to preempt further debate or follow-up questions. I've frequently added way more detail than I might have needed to, because I was anticipating the objections or questions I'd get without that supporting detail.

It's carried over into my business. While trying to make critical business decisions, I've found myself wandering off into "what will the guys online say" territory. Rusty and I recently argued over the direction of the design for the new L/XL Sub, questioning what the online peanut gallery will have to say about it.

The reality is that social media and popular user-generated content sites have made everyone feel as if they have some birthright to not only have an opinion, but to have it heard. It's led to all sorts of unintended consequences which don't benefit anyone.

Rotten Tomatoes is now in the process of revising their content-submission guidelines to improve the usefulness of their ratings. Apparently they had people submitting reviews of films before they were even available for viewing. Yelp is a cesspool of negativity. The user-review has become weaponized.

I've had guys email me to question why our reviews page doesn't have a link to their YouTube or blog review, or why we didn't approve their product review for publication.

It never seems to dawn on them that my website is for the benefit of my business, it's not a platform for anyone with a keyboard to sound off about that business. If you want to sound off, fine, but I don't have to provide the venue.

I think I'm going to just start bottling up the ideas as they come to me, posting to the blog, and restricting my real-time engagement to those topics which seem less likely to stir debate and ill-will.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Personally, I prefer to read a blog post than watch a video or listen to a podcast. I can skim for details or go back and re-read if I want. Not as easy to do with analog recordings.


This. I hate listening to people jabber on about whatever pops into their mind while they wander their way to the point. I can read a post or article in a fraction of the time it would take listening to it spoken, and can quickly skim ahead to the parts I care about if I want.

I realize I'm not in the target demographic for much of any marketing these days, though.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> This. I hate listening to people jabber on about whatever pops into their mind while they wander their way to the point. I can read a post or article in a fraction of the time it would take listening to it spoken, and can quickly skim ahead to the parts I care about if I want.
> 
> I realize I'm not in the target demographic for much of any marketing these days, though.


You'll listen to me jabber and watch me wander, and you'll LIKE IT!

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Yelp is a cesspool of negativity. The user-review has become weaponized.


Depends on what. Businesses that I've found to be truly exceptional generally have that reflected in very positive yelp ratings. I recently needed some basic electrical work done. I contacted 6 local electricians, only 1 of which even bothered to respond. They quoted around $500 for something that would take maybe an hour. Then I looked up "handyman" services in the area that are licensed for electrical work. The one with perfect Yelp scores got back to me immediately, told me they'd be here at 10:30am and got here at 10:30am *on the dot*, and did the work for $85. With that kind of service, you're going to earn perfect Yelp scores.

User ratings absolutely can be weaponized. I recently listened to the Dollop podcast episode on the "truck nuts war," and that's basically what the entire episode was about. However, I'd _much_ rather have Yelp than not have it, especially when Google reviews and a few other sites are sometimes suspicious in their overwhelming positivity when the Yelp rating is 3/5.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Doc threads, and a few watches, are why I’m here... 

The interactions are just as useful as the actual content. Learning that the people behind the trinkets are people, is a huge chunk of the appeal of microbrands to me. If the maker had blessed me with tinier wrists, and more disposable cash I’d have single handedly paid for, at minimum, three decent sandwiches, for Doc, in watch profits!


Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

MaxIcon said:


> This. I hate listening to people jabber on about whatever pops into their mind while they wander their way to the point. I can read a post or article in a fraction of the time it would take listening to it spoken, and can quickly skim ahead to the parts I care about if I want.
> 
> I realize I'm not in the target demographic for much of any marketing these days, though.


I can listen to a podcast while doing dishes or cleaning the bathroom. Blog reading not so much. There are upsides and downsides.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

captainmorbid said:


> Doc threads, and a few watches, are why I'm here...
> 
> The interactions are just as useful as the actual content. Learning that the people behind the trinkets are people, is a huge chunk of the appeal of microbrands to me. If the maker had blessed me with tinier wrists, and more disposable cash I'd have single handedly paid for, at minimum, three decent sandwiches, for Doc, in watch profits!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


There is no benefit to having tiny wrists. Trust me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Depends on what. Businesses that I've found to be truly exceptional generally have that reflected in very positive yelp ratings. I recently needed some basic electrical work done. I contacted 6 local electricians, only 1 of which even bothered to respond. They quoted around $500 for something that would take maybe an hour. Then I looked up "handyman" services in the area that are licensed for electrical work. The one with perfect Yelp scores got back to me immediately, told me they'd be here at 10:30am and got here at 10:30am *on the dot*, and did the work for $85. With that kind of service, you're going to earn perfect Yelp scores.
> 
> User ratings absolutely can be weaponized. I recently listened to the Dollop podcast episode on the "truck nuts war," and that's basically what the entire episode was about. However, I'd _much_ rather have Yelp than not have it, especially when Google reviews and a few other sites are sometimes suspicious in their overwhelming positivity when the Yelp rating is 3/5.


Yelp reviews make sense for localized businesses, particularly those selling a service. Where to get the best soup in town? Who does good electrical work for under $100? Sure, all day long.

It's stupid for a business like mine. This is your yelp, right here, the forums, and to a more or less equal extent, Facebook groups. Leaving me a review on Yelp does nothing.

People shopping for a $600 watch are likely to do more research than go looking at Yelp reviews. Most searches start generalized ("good dive watch under $200"), and end up specific ("Seiko SKX007"). By the time anyone has their decision narrowed down enough, they're not looking at Yelp.

And just like Yelp reviews can be weaponized, so too can forum reviews, or just plain opinion. The point isn't the value of Yelp, generally. The point is the inflated sense of importance people are now attributing to their own opinions, now that forums and Facebook groups have democratized the mechanisms involved in managing a brand's reputation.

It used to be we got our information from "experts", and hoped the experts were unbiased. We expected objectivity from industry journalists, as if everyone worked for Consumer Reports.

Blogging gave rise to the less-than-unbiased "expert", then the not-remotely-unbiased-non-expert, and now everyone is free to create forum user accounts for the sole purpose of trolling, and every noob thinks they're an expert after their third purchase and 300th post.

It's gotten to the point that I can't read almost any thread wherein people are making comparisons between watches, waxing philosophic about fit-and-finish, meanwhile I know enough about the products being discussed to know how full of it so many of those guys making those comments really are.

And those are the guys who truly believe they're being honest. That doesn't account for the guys who are simply vicious, and dishonest, because to them this is a bloodsport. They're like the crowds watch gladiators fight. They don't care about the result, so long as it's bloody.



captainmorbid said:


> Doc threads, and a few watches, are why I'm here...
> 
> The interactions are just as useful as the actual content. Learning that the people behind the trinkets are people, is a huge chunk of the appeal of microbrands to me. If the maker had blessed me with tinier wrists, and more disposable cash I'd have single handedly paid for, at minimum, three decent sandwiches, for Doc, in watch profits!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


I don't think I have it in me to simply disconnect and go unilateral with my communications. I still enjoy participating in some online discussions, and I think it's critical to maintain direct contact through the forums and FB groups.

I'm not saying I'll keep all my posts pithy. I'm just looking for the graceful way to bow out of the repetitive arguments. How many times can I destroy the myths of water resistance, only to watch them rise again, before I give up trying to stop people from being wrong on the internet, and just let my blog posts be my first, last, and only words on those topics?

As I sit here, I can't think of any online argument I've ever had that I didn't have more than once. As stupid as I often think the person I'm arguing with is, I always end up feeling more disappointed in my own stupidity for not seeing that trap before I walked into it.

I realize some folks may perceive me as someone who likes to argue, and always has to be right, but in my reality, I don't go into any argument if I'm not very certain I know what I'm talking about. That's part of the frustration for me. If I wasn't sure, I could be persuaded, and it doesn't take me long to realize I'm uncertain, at which point, I'll stop, and go looking for more information. I've learned a lot as a result of actually listening to someone I'd been arguing with, and going to try to find the proof, one way or the other.

It's never like that when I *KNOW* I'm right. It's like arguing with my dog when she's barking because she smells food on the counter. There's no arguing with her. All you can do is get up and put the food away, or give her some. I'm tired of trying to talk to guys who just want to sit there and bark at me until I get tired enough to give up.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Some images to depict the emotional stages I go through with repetitive arguments on the internet...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Yelp reviews make sense for localized businesses, particularly those selling a service. Where to get the best soup in town? Who does good electrical work for under $100? Sure, all day long.
> 
> It's stupid for a business like mine. This is your yelp, right here, the forums, and to a more or less equal extent, Facebook groups. Leaving me a review on Yelp does nothing.


Gotcha, yeah I'm definitely not going to be looking up micro brand reviews on Yelp. I usually start with a blog I like like W&W, and then I'll check to see if a channel like Average Bros has covered it. I would use Yelp to check out ADs if I was thinking about buying a retail brand watch, but not for the actual watch.

In other cases, I think the democratization away from just "industry professionals" has been quite positive. Take the car industry, for example. Look at some of the absolute trash that Motor Trend was handing out "Car of the Year" awards to back in the '80s and '90s before the internet was a thing. You can't get away with that pay to play crap anymore, because Motor Trend and Car and Driver are no longer the absolute arbiters of what's good and what isn't. I think it's made them more honest because they have to be in order to stay relevant, and also provides many more points of view so that you can make an informed decision. Sure some people are idiots, but it's easy enough to dismiss those people.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> It's like arguing with my dog when she's barking because she smells food on the counter.


Isolated for posterity.

Also, it took three tries.

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> There is no benefit to having tiny wrists. Trust me.


Pickpockets and people in handcuffs may disagree. I have to take my pants off to get change out of my pockets. It can be quite disconcerting to panhandlers, as I am a generous soul...

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Gotcha, yeah I'm definitely not going to be looking up micro brand reviews on Yelp. I usually start with a blog I like like W&W, and then I'll check to see if a channel like Average Bros has covered it. I would use Yelp to check out ADs if I was thinking about buying a retail brand watch, but not for the actual watch.
> 
> In other cases, I think the democratization away from just "industry professionals" has been quite positive. Take the car industry, for example. Look at some of the absolute trash that Motor Trend was handing out "Car of the Year" awards to back in the '80s and '90s before the internet was a thing. You can't get away with that pay to play crap anymore, because Motor Trend and Car and Driver are no longer the absolute arbiters of what's good and what isn't. I think it's made them more honest because they have to be in order to stay relevant, and also provides many more points of view so that you can make an informed decision. Sure some people are idiots, but it's easy enough to dismiss those people.


It's good and it's bad.

It's good that forums and FB groups allow brands like mine to avoid having their success held hostage to the whims of a handful of influential, online taste-makers.

I don't have to give a $hlt what any blog thinks, or whether or not they like me or my brand, so long as I can reach the people directly, and I've got a message which resonates with the people. Let the guys who can't or won't communicate rely on the blogs to carry their water for them. I like to carry my own water.

It's bad in that volume and vitriol have replaced knowledge and temperance. The ultimate example is Archie Luxury - no matter what he says about any watch, he's best known for his bluster. He's the predictable result of user-generated content turning smash-mouth. He didn't invent the game, he's just escalated it.

Think of it in terms of citizen "journalism". Now that everyone has a video recorder with them at all times, we've all become on-the-spot, ad-hoc news reporters. Anyone who can whip out his mobile and record a convenience store confrontation can get his fifteen minutes of fame, and we're all eager to do it. We all want people sharing our video, we want to go viral.

But is that good, for anyone? How often do lives get destroyed because some guy with a phone happened to capture someone at his worst? How much division has been sowed because of a 2 minute video without any context? Individuals with video cameras and no accountability can cause a lot of damage before anyone realizes what's happening.

How much different is it when a few dozen forum regulars decide to hate on a brand, or perpetuate a story that was blown out of proportion in the first place, but they keep dredging it up for years after?

How much misinformation about water resistance ratings, the "Swiss Made" rules, and so many other topics, gets perpetuated by online "experts" who are just repeating the same nonsense over and over?

Forums and social media give everyone equal ability to express opinions, informed or not. You have equal ability to spread truth or falsehood. The democratization is only constrained by forum rules, and the moderators' willingness to enforce them.

Unfortunately, the rules tend to favor a bare minimal level of civility over maximum veracity. Moderators are here to maintain decorum. They're ill-equipped to be the arbiters of truth (even though I have occasionally seen moderators step in to speak up when speculation, or sheer fantasy, goes over the top). They're cops, not teachers.

I've tried to do my part to bring clarity as much as I can, but I can't do it alone, against a constant onslaught of perpetual lunacy and entrenched bias. If I'm going to keep speaking up, I don't want to keep doing it in forums or FB groups, where the rules and moderation are focused on defusing conflict, rather than resolving it.

That's really the bottom line, for me. The conflict never ends so long as the truth is put on equal footing with untruth. I don't want conflict, I want clarity. It's not within my power to force clarity upon forums or FB. But I can control my own messaging, and unilateral vehicles like a blog, podcasts or YT videos offer a different dynamic. In those vehicles, the content creator is also the moderator.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> The blog is built into my website. There's no comments section.
> 
> I'll probably end up disabling comments on any YT videos we do.
> 
> ...


You should leave comments on. It's a way for people to interact with your brand regardless of pros or cons. You also don't need to/shouldn't respond to everyone.

Its really there for others and you should probably not even look at them.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> It's good and it's bad.
> 
> It's good that forums and FB groups allow brands like mine to avoid having their success held hostage to the whims of a handful of influential, online taste-makers.
> 
> ...


Doc, please don't let the inmates get away with it. I for one, applaud your efforts to correct "common knowledge" about our watch hobby and have learned a tremendous amount through your WOT's. A benefit that doesn't get mentioned enough is the fact that myself (and others I'm sure) have used the information we learned from you to help/correct others. Now, I'm not saying I have been as passionate or articulate as you have in making various points but I have made mention about certain realities that micros face when people like to complain.

For example, I've relied to several threads where the OP laments the fact that they can't get a part for their micro-brand watch even though it's second hand and "only' five years old. Through information learned from your postings, I've pointed out how expensive it would be for a micro-brand owner to have on hand every possible replacement part for every model they've ever made over the last x-number of years. I also make mention of things like the MOQ that I would have never known about had I not read about them from you.

I know it can be quite frustrating having the same arguments over and over again, especially with people who clearly don't have a clue, but I do want you to know that there are people like me who have learned a great deal from your efforts and sincerely appreciate the time you've taken to give back to our hobby. We are all better for it. Now get cracking on those 42 mm Subs cause I've got money burning a hole in my pocket.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> You should leave comments on. It's a way for people to interact with your brand regardless of pros or cons. You also don't need to/shouldn't respond to everyone.
> 
> Its really there for others and you should probably not even look at them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Sorry if I wasn't clear.

My intent isn't to stop discussion. I just don't want to be the host for the discussion. Let my blog post be a stand-alone item, and if people want to discuss anything within it, they can link to it, and start a thread on a forum or FB.

I don't want to host, full stop. I just don't see how that ends well. The comments sections of several blogs and YT channels are just cesspools of negativity, lorded over by a handful of the loudest, most obnoxious voices.

And, I don't trust the trolls to not use my lack of response against me. If I respond to some, but not all, that in and of itself becomes a point of debate, "he only talks to the yes-man/fanboys who agree with him, he's afraid to debate with anyone who disagrees with him, he deletes comments he doesn't like..."

Rather than host that party, and watch as my furniture gets broken, let those debates play out here, or in FB groups, where there's no custom which would seem to create any expectation of a response from me, personally.

In the meantime, I'll likely still maintain some lower-profile presence here and in FB groups.

I used to comment in lots of threads, in many sub-forums. Over time, my comments have become increasingly confined to this thread, and the occasional thread I start, or feel like I can comment within without any drama breaking out. I rarely if ever bother to respond to comments made about my brand, other than the occasional acknowledgement of someone's compliment. I do all I can to avoid debating the haters and trolls, and only respond to the most slanderous comments they might make.

The logical evolution of that would be just what I've described - less back-and-forth on any/all topics. Just the occasional short response to casual questions or comments, nothing too heavy, nothing likely to lead into debates or walls-of-text.



Metallman said:


> Doc, please don't let the inmates get away with it. I for one, applaud your efforts to correct "common knowledge" about our watch hobby and have learned a tremendous amount through your WOT's. A benefit that doesn't get mentioned enough is the fact that myself (and others I'm sure) have used the information we learned from you to help/correct others. Now, I'm not saying I have been as passionate or articulate as you have in making various points but I have made mention about certain realities that micros face when people like to complain.
> 
> For example, I've relied to several threads where the OP laments the fact that they can't get a part for their micro-brand watch even though it's second hand and "only' five years old. Through information learned from your postings, I've pointed out how expensive it would be for a micro-brand owner to have on hand every possible replacement part for every model they've ever made over the last x-number of years. I also make mention of things like the MOQ that I would have never known about had I not read about them from you.
> 
> I know it can be quite frustrating having the same arguments over and over again, especially with people who clearly don't have a clue, but I do want you to know that there are people like me who have learned a great deal from your efforts and sincerely appreciate the time you've taken to give back to our hobby. We are all better for it. Now get cracking on those 42 mm Subs cause I've got money burning a hole in my pocket.


Whether the knowledge you gain is from my walls of text here, or from my blog, I don't think it matters much, if you use the knowledge in the same way regardless.

My goal isn't to stop doing what I do, my goal is just to modify the tactics, and take up a more defensible position.

I'm not trying to throw the mods under the bus. I understand the reasoning why forum and FB group moderation is conducted the way it is.

But it's gotten to the point that I'm getting moderated for my comments in these debates, not because I've used profanity or been insulting, but just because I've been a party to a protracted debate, and each volley has gotten more intense.

Their concern isn't who's right or wrong, their concern is keeping the peace, and they're not wrong in saying I've participated in disturbing it.

If I want to maintain my "good forum citizen" status, I can't be getting dragged into a raucous argument every week. If I was a mod, I'd kick me out, if that was happening. I don't want to get banned, and just getting a warning from a moderator feels like getting called down to the principal's office for dropping cherry-bombs down the boys' room toilet. It sucks to feel that anxiety, as a grown-up.

So...the only solution I see is to focus my argument energy into a venue which allows me to state my case, and be done. Let the debate happen elsewhere, without me involved, and without me being seen as its instigator.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PS - for those who want the knowledge, and prefer the video or podcast format, you'll like the upcoming episodes of Doc's House Calls.

So far we've shot them with Visitor, Nodus, Straton, and Hamtun. I've got 3-4 others I'm trying to line up. My hunch is that with each episode, more will seek me out, and I won't have any trouble filling my dance card.

Each episode so far delves into the particulars of how both those brands - and mine - are run, and delivers many insights into the industry. If you want to maintain that "window into my world", Doc's House Calls is shaping up to be a very large, very transparent window.

If you're just tuning in, and you don't know what Doc's House Calls is (are?), it's a YouTube show I've started doing, recording unscripted video-calls with other microbrand owners. It'll be one of the series featured on the recently launched "Watch With US" YouTube channel. You can subscribe to it here - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8hB30v4e5WEu02vO7yp6K03Hy0ZZxTtv

I think we'll post a new episode every 2 weeks, for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Wow. Nice job....TAG? Did I just say that out loud? Also, Zodiac's new Aerospace GMT is quite cool. If they do a version with 1675 GMT Master colors, I might have to buy one, and I don't even need a GMT.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Those two I like. The rest, meh. Tudor literally shrunk the size of its fanboi base today.

Perhaps the doom and gloom over the Swiss watch industry is well deserved if they can produce a polished turd like Tudor just did and seriously expect to sell it.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> I can listen to a podcast while doing dishes or cleaning the bathroom. Blog reading not so much. There are upsides and downsides.


This makes sense for many people. I can't keep focused on the thread in those situations; even while driving, I can't listen to ebooks, as my mind comes back around from wherever it's been and I've missed a few minutes. It's all music for driving, dishwashing, whatever.

I didn't see the latest Tudor mentioned above posted, so here it is. I happened to make my monthly visit to the Rolex/Tudor subforum today, and the rage is palpable. Everyone was expecting a vintage sub homage, and this is what they got.










A great read:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f23/[email protected]


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Just wait till you see Doc's inhouse spring drive NTH Sub. Limited to 100 pieces in gold and 20 in platinum.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> This makes sense for many people. I can't keep focused on the thread in those situations; even while driving, I can't listen to ebooks, as my mind comes back around from wherever it's been and I've missed a few minutes. It's all music for driving, dishwashing, whatever.
> 
> I didn't see the latest Tudor mentioned above posted, so here it is. I happened to make my monthly visit to the Rolex/Tudor subforum today, and the rage is palpable. Everyone was expecting a vintage sub homage, and this is what they got.
> 
> ...


I said this in response to a friend's post about that watch on FB - I can't decide if I love it or hate it, but I applaud Tudor for stepping way outside their usual box.

My hunch is they'll make those in very limited numbers, get the big blogs to hype the hell out of them, sell out quickly, then never make any more, and they'll become Unicorns forever after. Expect secondary market prices to be stupid-high.

I know I hate the flip-lock end-links, 4 o'clock crown, and hinged-lug-strap. But without all that, it would just be a Black Bay Steel with a 12hr bezel, which might have been a better idea.

If nothing else, it got me thinking about some things we might like to do, and so I spent a few hours today going back and forth with Aaron and Rusty on some new ideas for both the 40mm and L/XL versions of the Subs. Hopefully we'll be able to start showing them to y'all soon (read: in 2-3 months).


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

docvail said:


> My hunch is they'll make those in very limited numbers, get the big blogs to hype the hell out of them, sell out quickly, then never make any more, and they'll become Unicorns forever after. Expect secondary market prices to be stupid-high.


Yep, people will be lining up to buy them and squirrel them away and sell for a profit in 20 years and....Unicorns!

But I have to enjoy the frothing in the Tudor forums everywhere.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I also can't decide what to make of the new Zodiac Aerospace GMT. I want to like it, but...I feel like I might like the blue-fade Glycine Airman GMT more, especially on a bracelet, but the blue-orange bezel on the Zodiac is gonna get noticed more.

That Tag is interesting. Like the others, I can't decide if I like it or not. It feels vaguely Bremont-meets-Bell & Ross-ish. I've never been a big-fan of full-number dials, with very few exceptions, and that doesn't feel like one of them.

Lastly, for those who think Tudor either built the bed or $hlt in it, take a look at what our boy @jelliottz posted to IG today -

__
http://instagr.am/p/BvPClYGHLUQ/


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> I don't think I have it in me to simply disconnect and go unilateral with my communications. I still enjoy participating in some online discussions, and I think it's critical to maintain direct contact through the forums and FB groups.
> 
> I'm not saying I'll keep all my posts pithy. I'm just looking for the graceful way to bow out of the repetitive arguments. How many times can I destroy the myths of water resistance, only to watch them rise again, before I give up trying to stop people from being wrong on the internet, and just let my blog posts be my first, last, and only words on those topics?
> 
> As I sit here, I can't think of any online argument I've ever had that I didn't have more than once. As stupid as I often think the person I'm arguing with is, I always end up feeling more disappointed in my own stupidity for not seeing that trap before I walked into it.


I think it's clear that a lot of us appreciate and value your engagement, walls-o-text and all. At the same time, the type of repetitive arguments you're describing here would wear anybody out.

I like your idea of blog posts on various topics that often come up in inquiries/discussions/debates. That way, to respond to the next forum/FB post that wants to argue about a topic, you can just reply with a link to the relevant blog post . "Why don't we sell spare parts? Here you go: *link".. "Why won't you make a 36mm diver? Here you go: *link".. At the very least it saves you lots of typing, and hopefully you can maintain some mental peace saving yourself from having to explain the same thing for the 50th time.

If people actually read the blog post and come back with earnest follow up questions, you can address those then (and perhaps add more info to the blog post). If people respond and just want to argue, you'll just have to refrain from indulging them; knowing that you've already provided the information. Obviously, the hardest part might be deciphering people's intent and motives.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Lastly, for those who think Tudor either built the bed or $hlt in it, take a look at what our boy @jelliottz posted to IG today -
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BvPClYGHLUQ/


I'm always impressed by talented modders, but this is extreme. I can't even begin to imagine what it would take to pull this off!


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> I'm always impressed by talented modders, but this is extreme. I can't even begin to imagine what it would take to pull this off!


Just the right case, a basic understanding of proportions, and the willingness to go through trial and error to teach yourself to make your own dials. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jelliottz said:


> Just the right case, a basic understanding of proportions, and the willingness to go through trial and error to teach yourself to make your own dials.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

MaxIcon said:


> I didn't see the latest Tudor mentioned above posted, so here it is. I happened to make my monthly visit to the Rolex/Tudor subforum today, and the rage is palpable. Everyone was expecting a vintage sub homage, and this is what they got.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


YIKES. It has a similar unfortunate "chin wart" crown as my Evant Decodiver, which is my biggest problem with that watch. Other than that, to me it looks like the world's nicest SKX013 Tudor homage. *Hard pass*


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I also can't decide what to make of the new Zodiac Aerospace GMT. I want to like it, but...I feel like I might like the blue-fade Glycine Airman GMT more, especially on a bracelet, but the blue-orange bezel on the Zodiac is gonna get noticed more.
> 
> That Tag is interesting. Like the others, I can't decide if I like it or not. It feels vaguely Bremont-meets-Bell & Ross-ish. I've never been a big-fan of full-number dials, with very few exceptions, and that doesn't feel like one of them.
> 
> ...


The Bremont connection I definitely see, particularly the bezel/insert which is very Supermarine. I normally hate full number dials as well, although mainly that's because most of them put the date at 3 which kills the symmetry. The date at 6 is a MUCH better choice. I also find flat dials with painted markers to be boring as hell, which is what most full number field watches tend to be. That's DEFINITELY not going on here. The raised numbers and stepped rehaut/chapter ring give it a ton of visual interest. I'll have to go take a look when the TAG AD here gets them, although at 42, I'm guessing those lugs are at least 50mm, too much for me.

I'm curious to see what wacky colors Zodiac eventually comes up with for the Aerospace, assuming it's successful. The two launch colors are fine, but a bit predictable, and it's just a basic black dial on both. The glass does mimic the bakelite look beautifully though. A brown dialed classic root beer would be amazing though, as nothing else really looks like that, including Rolex's own reinterpretation which I think just looks like a rose gold Coke bezel.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Pleasant surprise this morning: drizzly weather light makes the Vintage Nacken pop. The play of the bezel, dial, and case with the light is quite the treat.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just sayin'


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> If nothing else, it got me thinking about some things we might like to do, and so I spent a few hours today going back and forth with Aaron and Rusty on some new ideas for both the 40mm and L/XL versions of the Subs. Hopefully we'll be able to start showing them to y'all soon (read: in 2-3 months).


Dying to know what _this _means, you tease!



docvail said:


> I also can't decide what to make of the new Zodiac Aerospace GMT. I want to like it, but...I feel like I might like the blue-fade Glycine Airman GMT more, especially on a bracelet, but the blue-orange bezel on the Zodiac is gonna get noticed more.
> 
> That Tag is interesting. Like the others, I can't decide if I like it or not. It feels vaguely Bremont-meets-Bell & Ross-ish. I've never been a big-fan of full-number dials, with very few exceptions, and that doesn't feel like one of them.


Agree about the Zodiac. The overall aesthetic is nice but kind of meh. I don't see anything to lust over there. And the black/gray bezel looks weird -- like maybe there's a reason you don't see that very often.

The Tag Isograph in blue on bracelet is pretty smashing. Which Tag seems to understand since they've price the models on bracelet at a ludicrous $4000. But dat crown. I like a big crown as much as the next guy, but this feels like over-compensating.










The "black" dial is far too gray and tinted too cool, so it ends up looking green.



docvail said:


> Lastly, for those who think Tudor either built the bed or $hlt in it, take a look at what our boy @jelliottz posted to IG today -
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BvPClYGHLUQ/


Broken link, yo. (It got doubled somehow.)


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Whoa, hadn't seen this before this morning. Nomos with 300m Tangente and Club "Sport" models, 10.9mm thick on the Tangentes, and *10.2mm* on the Club. Yowzers. That's thinner than that Bathyscape Blancpain introduced a couple years ago (10.77mm).

@docvail - 10mm or bust! :-d










https://nomos-glashuette.com/en/club/club-sport-neomatik-42-date-black-781


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Blah, double post. Forum's acting nuts this morning.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Or, y'know, 10.5mm @ 400m WR.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

JakeJD said:


> Agree about the Zodiac. The overall aesthetic is nice but kind of meh. I don't see anything to lust over there. And the black/gray bezel looks weird -- like maybe there's a reason you don't see that very often.
> 
> The Tag Isograph in blue on bracelet is pretty smashing. Which Tag seems to understand since they've price the models on bracelet at a ludicrous $4000. But dat crown. I like a big crown as much as the next guy, but this feels like over-compensating.
> 
> ...


I'm not much of a Tag fan, but this blue one is pretty great, with all that dimensional goodness. Now, I always fall into the trap of seeing these huge close-up photos and thinking I'll be able to admire these fine details on my wrist, but hope springs ever eternal.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> ...it would just be a Black Bay Steel with a *12hr bezel*, which might have been a better idea.
> 
> If nothing else, it got me thinking about *some things we might like to do*...


Bold = hint, hint...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> Dying to know what _this _means, you tease!
> 
> Agree about the Zodiac. The overall aesthetic is nice but kind of meh. I don't see anything to lust over there. And the black/gray bezel looks weird -- like maybe there's a reason you don't see that very often.
> 
> ...


I fixed the link. Blame forum software. Here it is again -

__
http://instagr.am/p/BvPClYGHLUQ/

I really want to like the Zodiac. So much of what they've been releasing in recent years has been so spot-on, but that GMT just looks oddly generic.

I can't put my finger on what it is exactly I don't like about that Tag, but it feels...confused, like there's just too much going on there.



JakeJD said:


> Whoa, hadn't seen this before this morning. Nomos with 300m Tangente and Club "Sport" models, 10.9mm thick on the Tangentes, and *10.2mm* on the Club. Yowzers. That's thinner than that Bathyscape Blancpain introduced a couple years ago (10.77mm).
> 
> @docvail - 10mm or bust! :-d
> 
> ...


So...my Facebook feed has been blowing up with news from Basel, and it feels like there are more people trying to be first-to-post all the latest news than in previous years.

I think those Nomos are hand-wind only, which helps with thinness. I also think I saw that they're 42mm, which...just doesn't make sense to me.

If they want to make dive watches, fine, put a proper bezel on it, and make it 42mm. But a 42mm Bauhaus-styled hand-wind Nomos with 300m WR and a "whatever we could find" sort of bracelet just doesn't scan.

So far, the Tudor P01 is actually the best, or at least, the most interesting thing I've seen come out of Basel.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Tudor -- if it was 40mm, with shorter lugs and lost the bezel lock endlink shrouds I'd totally be there. Except, y'know, the price. I'd also be tempted to get one to match my Terreblanche-designed Ducati Multistrada, one of the most serious design gaffes in all contemporary motorcycling. Agreed -- this will be a very limited run, much sought after by collectors 10-20 yrs hence. The Blue Alpinist LE of Tudors...

That Tag is cool. But nah. Rather get a NTH Scorpene for less $$$.

The Zodiac Aerospace GMT is getting closer, especially the one with the funky blue and orange bezel.

But what really appeals to me is the new Monta Atlas GMT. 38.5mm dia; 10.5mm thick...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

That Monta is very nice.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The Nomos thing is, indeed, crazy. Their small watches - the 36mm and the 38mm Club I can vouc hfor personally - already wear much larger than you'd expect from the size spec. A 42mm all-dial Nomos is beyond dinnerplate.

As for the Tudor....
Okay, so, it is daring and interesting; unfortunately it is also very very ugly. In large part due to those massive polished lug-hoods. I bet if you took those off and just put normal springbars & 22mm straps instead, it would be a pretty neat watch. But, no, Tudor had to put on the bling grills.

P.S. Love that TagHeuer 3hander. The Zodiac, on the other hand, looks like a reskin of their existing skindiver models, which already have played a lot with funky 70s pastel colors.

Monta effed it up with printing "GMT-150 ____________ _m_". What's up with that spacing?! No, seriously, I wanna know: what does "GMT-150" mean, and what does "_m_" mean there?


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Gosh darn double posts! The old workarounds aren't working, this is new...


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> So...my Facebook feed has been blowing up with news from Basel, and it feels like there are more people trying to be first-to-post all the latest news than in previous years.
> 
> I think those Nomos are hand-wind only, which helps with thinness. I also think I saw that they're 42mm, which...just doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> ...


Neomatik = automatic, actually. No quibble about the design, though. It's clearly not meant to be a dive watch, but just a "sport" watch. So 300m and those thicknesses are really just showing off.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I said this in response to a friend's post about that watch on FB - I can't decide if I love it or hate it, but I applaud Tudor for stepping way outside their usual box.
> 
> My hunch is they'll make those in very limited numbers, get the big blogs to hype the hell out of them, sell out quickly, then never make any more, and they'll become Unicorns forever after. Expect secondary market prices to be stupid-high.
> 
> ...


Doc:

Just curious: with 12-hour bezels becoming more and more in vogue, manufacturing wise, what does it take to achieve a bidirectional bezel versus a unidirectional bezel? The cases or bezels obviously appear to not be readily interchangeable.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> The Nomos thing is, indeed, crazy. Their small watches - the 36mm and the 38mm Club I can vouc hfor personally - already wear much larger than you'd expect from the size spec. A 42mm all-dial Nomos is beyond dinnerplate.
> 
> As for the Tudor....
> Okay, so, it is daring and interesting; unfortunately it is also very very ugly. In large part due to those massive polished lug-hoods. I bet if you took those off and just put normal springbars & 22mm straps instead, it would be a pretty neat watch. But, no, Tudor had to put on the bling grills.
> ...


First off - goddam you for pointing out that gap in the text in the Monta. Now I can't un-see it.

I was never into Nomos, or that Germanic Bauhaus style anyway, so never paid them much attention. But, yeah, I figure 38mm is about as big as you'd want to go with an all-dial watch like that, so 42mm is pie-pan.

I don't know who it's for. Guys who like big watches? Those guys don't typically go for that sort of thing, I wouldn't think. Guys who like that Nomos style, but want a sportier watch? They could have kept it to 40mm and called it a day, with or without a Bezel.

The Tudor thing - the Omega Ploprof is uglier than a Tijuana donkey show, but people love them so much two or three brands make homages to them. And that's not the only example, not even the only one within Omega's history. Sometimes ugly can be beautiful.

It's "Chu-dah", and it's funky, and it's got that tacticool thing going for it, with the "we almost got a US DOD contract" back story, and they'll probably make 5,000 of them, ever, which will be sold before I finish typing this sentence.

I hate it, because it's ugly, but...I kind of like it, because it's ugly in kind of a cool way.



JakeJD said:


> Neomatik = automatic, actually. No quibble about the design, though. It's clearly not meant to be a dive watch, but just a "sport" watch. So 300m and those thicknesses are really just showing off.


Yep. Just saw that they are indeed automatic, and returned here to see who was first to correct me.

42mm, with that WR, and an automatic movement is just crazy-thin. But, it's their in-house calibre, so it's not like I've got many choices in movements if I want to compete with them. Not including the hands-post, it's a full 0.5mm thinner than the 9015.











ck2k01 said:


> Doc:
> 
> Just curious: with 12-hour bezels becoming more and more in vogue, manufacturing wise, what does it take to achieve a bidirectional bezel versus a unidirectional bezel? The cases or bezels obviously appear to not be readily interchangeable.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good question. My knowledge is limited, however, there do seem to be some limitations which come into play, depending on the diameter, number of clicks, and the direction of rotation.

I can't exactly remember what I was told with the Phantom, but I think I wanted 120 clicks, and was told we couldn't do a bi-directional bezel of that size with that many, so I'd have to settle for 60.

If you're asking with an eye towards getting a bi-directional bezel on the NTH Subs, that's not going to happen. They all share the same case, and thus the same case design. They're all going to stay 120-click, uni-directional.

Even *IF* we could re-engineer the case to get a bi-directional bezel, with any number of clicks, it would create some additional challenges for us in assembly and post-sale support.

You can't tell by looking at a case without the bezel insert installed if it's uni-directional or bi-directional. Yes, you could just turn the bezel to find out, and then assemble accordingly, but I know how these things go, and I know we'd end up having a lot of issues, and we'd need to wait for pieces to be re-assembled correctly.

For me, this is another of those "not worth screwing around" things. The added appeal for a handful of people isn't something I can add into my price to compensate for the added hassle.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Yep. Just saw that they are indeed automatic, and returned here to see who was first to correct me.
> 
> 42mm, with that WR, and an automatic movement is just crazy-thin. But, it's their in-house calibre, so it's not like I've got many choices in movements if I want to compete with them. Not including the hands-post, it's a full 0.5mm thinner than the 9015.
> 
> View attachment 13996173


They gain additional height savings by using a movement with a 6:00 seconds.

I was just kidding about 10mm or bust. To get even to 10.5 I'm guessing you'd have to start using a bunch of custom components designed for less space and tightened tolerances. Like the Mido Baroncelli Heritage I had for a while; 6.75mm with a 2892, but Mido had to use custom-length posts, laser-cut and extremely thin hands separated by a hair's breadth, and a .15mm dial with flat text on it. Was it impressive? Sure. But that's a lot of engineering just to say "thinner." And, frankly, it was a little boring to look at (the clever etching they did to make the hands look faceted notwithstanding). Dimensionality is important, especially in a diver.

It also sounds expensive and like a QC headache in the making. I'll take a tough and reliable 11.5mm Sub that looks awesome over something flat and boring but uber-thin any day. :-!


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> First off - goddam you for pointing out that gap in the text in the Monta. Now I can't un-see it.
> 
> I was never into Nomos, or that Germanic Bauhaus style anyway, so never paid them much attention. But, yeah, I figure 38mm is about as big as you'd want to go with an all-dial watch like that, so 42mm is pie-pan.
> 
> ...


Nah, I was really just curious about the under-the-hood differences rather than anything business-related, or whether it might be offered on a sub in the future. I figured more brands would do them if it was that simple. And since Jason is currently making one as a new model, I figured it had to be a "from the get go" design choice to be viable.

I had a Murphy bidirectional bezel on an SKX mod once. So I knew, like you indicated, that different bezel architectures could accommodate the same base case. But I don't pay that close attention to engineering details, nor do I have that watch any more to look for myself, so I figured you'd probably know.

Thanks as always for sharing your insights.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This has been pissing me off for a while.

Miyota makes the 9039, which is the no-date version of the with-date 9015. Awesome, thank you, Miyota-san, we needed a no-date option.

But then, they go and make the hands-setting heights different.

Seriously, Miyota-san, why do you hate me?

Why is that a big deal? I'll tell you why. Because it means the hands aren't interchangeable. If we want to use the 9039 for the no-date version of a watch that uses the 9015 in the with-date version, we have to have different hands made.

Why don't we do that? I'll tell you why. Because the hands would be visually identical, down a fraction of a mm. The minute hand would be no more than 0.5mm different, and the hour hand would be within 0.3mm.

That means, when we go to do assembly, it would be an absolute, 100% cluster-f**k, with a $hlt-ton of assembly errors.

What am I talking about? I'll tell you.

Hands aren't flat. They look that way from the top, but underneath, they've got little tubes jutting down to keep them level on the hands-post, and to maintain proper spacing (I'm guessing that's why, I'm not a watchmaker, so it's never been explained to me, and I never cared enough to ask).

Check out my stupendous illustration of what the hand looks like close up, from the side, below, in blue.

Those tubes - their depths would be the ONLY way you could tell a 9039's hand from a 9015's hand, and with manufacturing tolerances, the differences could be less than 0.3mm / 0.5mm.

I'm guessing the 9015's hour hand has to be 0.3mm higher to get the clearance they need between the hand and the dial, and the dial and the date wheel. I don't know why the spacing on the minute hand is different, but it doesn't matter.

When other brands make a no-date version of a movement, they use the same hands-height. They just remove the date wheel and use a different setting jumping lever. Done. Finito.

But NOOOOOOOOO, not Miyota, those jackwagons just had to use a different hands height.

That means, for every model we make with an optional date/no-date, we have to use the 9015 for both, and I gotta put up with all the online whinging about phantom date change positions on the crown.

Screw you, Miyota.

Screw. You.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> They gain additional height savings by using a movement with a 6:00 seconds.
> 
> I was just kidding about 10mm or bust. To get even to 10.5 I'm guessing you'd have to start using a bunch of custom components designed for less space and tightened tolerances. Like the Mido Baroncelli Heritage I had for a while; 6.75mm with a 2892, but Mido had to use custom-length posts, laser-cut and extremely thin hands separated by a hair's breadth, and a .15mm dial with flat text on it. Was it impressive? Sure. But that's a lot of engineering just to say "thinner." And, frankly, it was a little boring to look at (the clever etching they did to make the hands look faceted notwithstanding). Dimensionality is important, especially in a diver.
> 
> It also sounds expensive and like a QC headache in the making. I'll take a tough and reliable 11.5mm Sub that looks awesome over something flat and boring but uber-thin any day. :-!


So...

See my post above, if we went all no-date, we could shave 0.35mm out, just with a shorter hands post on the 9039.

I was looking at the NTH Subs case engineering drawing last night, and calculated that with a flat crystal, it would be 0.5mm thinner.

Shave that 0.85mm out of 11.5mm, you're at 10.65mm.

Back in 2016 (wow, three years ago), when we were arguing with the factory engineers about all this, I was convinced they were taking 0.15mm more of clearance than they needed.

Looking at the engineering drawing last night, I sill think that *MAYBE* we could take that 0.15mm back, and if we did, you'd be down to 10.5mm, which is pucker-up-and-kiss-my-Philadelphia-a$$-if-it-ain't-the-thinnest thin.

But, after the experience we had with the bezel-on-dial contact with the Tropics, I'm happy we didn't make a federal case out of that last 0.15mm. Ain't nobody got time f'dat.

I saw some guys arguing somewhere online about the relative impressiveness of the NTH Subs case being as thin as it is. One guy said it was impressive, another guy wasn't too impressed.

Screw you, not-impressed guy. Let's see you design a case to be this thin, and go through what we went through to get it, using any off-the-shelf-movement that existed in 2015 (before the 9039), and keep the retail price under $700.

The base unit on the ETA 2892-2 is actually a little thicker than the 9015's, but I think it manages to be slightly thinner overall, due to the hands-post height, but it costs *A LOT* more than the 9015, and is nowhere near as bulletproof.

Other than decreasing the diameter (smaller diameter crystals don't have to be as thick to maintain the same WR spec), those are the ONLY ways to make that case thinner - go no-date only with the 9039, use a flat crystal, or go dangerously thin with the clearances between parts inside the case.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

So...will we receive a 'Super Bass-o-matic' with every future NTH purchase? Enquiring minds need to know.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

my Phantom has a BI directional bezel?!

I know I'm sliding towards dotardy, but c'mon me!

I think I may have too many divers.. 

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> my Phantom has a BI directional bezel?!
> 
> I know I'm sliding towards dotardy, but c'mon me!
> 
> ...


If you're seriously saying you never realized the bezel would turn both ways, that's awesome.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> If you're seriously saying you never realized the bezel would turn both ways, that's awesome.


It never came up.

Also, I'm barely serious...

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## NoTimeToLose (Sep 23, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Monta effed it up with printing "GMT-150 ____________ _m_". What's up with that spacing?! No, seriously, I wanna know: what does "GMT-150" mean, and what does "_m_" mean there?


The spacing's weird, but I think they did it to make the "GMT-150 m" exactly the same width as the word MONTA. I've no idea why that might be important.

"GMT-150m" means it's a GMT watch that's notionally waterproof to 150m.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Watches and Scotch..









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NoTimeToLose said:


> The spacing's weird, but I think they did it to make the "GMT-150 m" exactly the same width as the word MONTA. I've no idea why that might be important.
> 
> "GMT-150m" means it's a GMT watch that's notionally waterproof to 150m.


Only if the notion doesn't include dynamic notions.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

NoTimeToLose said:


> "GMT-150m" means it's a GMT watch that's notionally waterproof to 150m.


Sure, sure, but that's not what the dial says. The dial, on that line, says 2 very separate things, distinguished from each other both by spacing and by italicisation of the fonts. So, I'm still really curious, what does "GMT-150" mean? 150th gmt microbrand watch this year? Internal revision 150 of the Monta GMT design? The fictional timezone of GMT minus 150 hours?

And that standalone "_m_" is also bugging me a lot. Completely arcane in its purpose, there.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Tudor -- if it was 40mm, with shorter lugs and lost the bezel lock endlink shrouds I'd totally be there. Except, y'know, the price. I'd also be tempted to get one to match my Terreblanche-designed Ducati Multistrada, one of the most serious design gaffes in all contemporary motorcycling. Agreed -- this will be a very limited run, much sought after by collectors 10-20 yrs hence. The Blue Alpinist LE of Tudors...
> 
> That Tag is cool. But nah. Rather get a NTH Scorpene for less $$$.
> 
> ...


The Monta is very nice, if a bit predictable. They basically just combined the Triumph and Skyquest into one watch. I'd like to see them really do something different. The handset for example is basically the same as what's on the original Oceanking from a few years ago, and the dial here is identical to the Skyquest. Their execution is top shelf as usual, but I kind of have a "what else ya got?" feeling about it. As for the Zodiac - it looks that way because the original looks that way - that's what they do. I imagine there will probably be a new version of this black/tan one too at some point. Still pulling for a root beer because I don't have $12,000 for a 16753.


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Any chance of seeing some sort of gulf racing/ monaco-esque colorway from you?

I really liked that aerospace gmt purely for the bezel but remained disciplined because my collection feels like it's already getting heavy on the zodiac but now that I woke up to see it already sold out I just want it even more and I'm scrambling for something to scratch the itch. I think the market has just proven itself for the softened blue/ orange color combo.
Itd be awesome to see like a holland dial but with orange border nacken indices (either on the index as in the seawolf or printed around the lume on the dial if that isnt feasible) , or orange dial with blue border indices. I feel like it would be a nice crossover to slightly homage the zo9265 and its vintage forebearers (especially if you keep it under the nacken umbrella). Or you could go all out and make a a truly wild nazario.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Btw, that Tag Heuer isograph watch will also come in a bronze variant, will become available later in 2019 according to watchgecko's article.

That might legit be a big talking point once the realse draws nearer. Right now basel and tudor01 is overshadowing the discussion, but if tudor BBBronze showed anything, it's that the watch media loves a well-sized ad well-proportioned bronze diver from a big brand.

And, hey, it does look really good. The bronze material even makes the crown size seem more stylistically reasonable.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Btw, that Tag Heuer isograph watch will also come in a bronze variant, will become available later in 2019 according to watchgecko's article.
> 
> That might legit be a big talking point once the realse draws nearer. Right now basel and tudor01 is overshadowing the discussion, but if tudor BBBronze showed anything, it's that the watch media loves a well-sized ad well-proportioned bronze diver from a big brand.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, great dial, love that texture, but that case....... just goes a long way to disprove the notion that you can't polish a turd.......

Edit: Also displays shrinking hand syndrome, what an almighty fail.

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

As it's Friday, best be wearing an appropriate Fannum.........









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hey, doc, could you please shed some light - one way or another, all's good - on this:

- Was there any kind of a bezel alteration (shape / profile / slope / insert thickness / gearing) between the recent Subs batch (with the new fancy bracelets) and the early subs batches (c.a. santa fe, 1st gen santa cruz era)?


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Ragl said:


> As it's Friday, best be wearing an appropriate Fannum.........
> 
> View attachment 13997671
> 
> ...


Otay,


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

docvail said:


> First off - goddam you for pointing out that gap in the text in the Monta. Now I can't un-see it.





X2-Elijah said:


> Sure, sure, but that's not what the dial says. The dial, on that line, says 2 very separate things, distinguished from each other both by spacing and by italicisation of the fonts. So, I'm still really curious, what does "GMT-150" mean? 150th gmt microbrand watch this year? Internal revision 150 of the Monta GMT design? The fictional timezone of GMT minus 150 hours?
> 
> And that standalone "_m_" is also bugging me a lot. Completely arcane in its purpose, there.


Technically, they're correct in putting the space there, according to the National Institute of Standards and Technology. But I never liked that rule anyway, and the italicization is definitely unnecessary. The hyphen as well. Maybe it's meant as a separator. If so, something like "GMT • 150 m" would have worked better.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

1 space I can live with - that is, indeed, correct.
3 spaces is too much.


----------



## nemorior (Jan 1, 2017)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> The Monta is very nice, if a bit predictable. They basically just combined the Triumph and Skyquest into one watch. I'd like to see them really do something different. The handset for example is basically the same as what's on the original Oceanking from a few years ago, and the dial here is identical to the Skyquest. Their execution is top shelf as usual, but I kind of have a "what else ya got?" feeling about it. As for the Zodiac - it looks that way because the original looks that way - that's what they do. I imagine there will probably be a new version of this black/tan one too at some point. Still pulling for a root beer because I don't have $12,000 for a 16753.
> 
> View attachment 13997331
> 
> View attachment 13997333


Monta is establishing a consistent design language for the brand. I've gone back and forth about whether or not I think that's a good idea for brands. On the one hand, it simplifies product development, and creates a memorable, unified image for the brand. If you've seen one Magrette, you kind of know what all Magrettes look like.

On the other hand, people probably aren't as likely to go back and buy another, compared to the likelihood someone who owns an Aevig Valkyr might also get the Balaur, Thor, or Huldra.

As for Zodiac - I think "looks that way because that's how the original looked" only makes sense if the original couldn't do with a bit of improvement. Otherwise, sticking to how it was done before could be stupid.

I'll catch heat for this, but look at the re-release of the Rado Captain Cook. The hands don't match, not even close. The broad-arrow hour hand has a tail which comes to a point on the opposite side of the post. The minute hand has a pinched neck, and no tail:









It's clear that Rado used a mis-matched pairing on the original, but they could have come up with a matched set on the re-release.

Let me help you out, Rado...









"That's how the original looked" doesn't always wash.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



skuzapo said:


> Any chance of seeing some sort of gulf racing/ monaco-esque colorway from you?
> 
> I really liked that aerospace gmt purely for the bezel but remained disciplined because my collection feels like it's already getting heavy on the zodiac but now that I woke up to see it already sold out I just want it even more and I'm scrambling for something to scratch the itch. I think the market has just proven itself for the softened blue/ orange color combo.
> Itd be awesome to see like a holland dial but with orange border nacken indices (either on the index as in the seawolf or printed around the lume on the dial if that isnt feasible) , or orange dial with blue border indices. I feel like it would be a nice crossover to slightly homage the zo9265 and its vintage forebearers (especially if you keep it under the nacken umbrella). Or you could go all out and make a a truly wild nazario.


No current plans.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hey, doc, could you please shed some light - one way or another, all's good - on this:
> 
> - Was there any kind of a bezel alteration (shape / profile / slope / insert thickness / gearing) between the recent Subs batch (with the new fancy bracelets) and the early subs batches (c.a. santa fe, 1st gen santa cruz era)?


None.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

NoTimeToLose said:


> The spacing's weird, but I think they did it to make the "GMT-150 m" exactly the same width as the word MONTA.


You do that with kerning -- adding space between each letter over the whole line. Not by adding an extra space -- that's type design pre-school. And trying to match the width of the logotype is a lame reason to try spacing that text out in the first place.

I'm not hip on watch design beyond, "Hey, I like that!" but I dabble in type design, professionally. If I were to guess, I'd say there's something funky going on between the regular display font for 150, and the itallic "m," which didn't exactly translate WYSIWYG from screen to production. And/or simply a couldn't see the forest for the trees oversight while trying to get everything else right on a new release model.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

kak1154 said:


> Technically, they're correct in putting the space there, according to the National Institute of Standards and Technology. But I never liked that rule anyway, and the italicization is definitely unnecessary. The hyphen as well. Maybe it's meant as a separator. If so, something like "GMT • 150 m" would have worked better.


There's rules... and then there's house/industry style. X2 is correct, there shouldn't be any space between 150 and m by traditional watch dial WR style nomenclature style. You can be correct to some Standards style rules and still be wrong within a particular industry -- it's not reportage of a technical detail for scientists or engineers on a watch dial, it's consumer marketing.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> If you've seen one Magrette, you kind of know what all Magrettes look like./QUOTE]
> 
> But I like it .....
> 
> ...


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

I think it's valuable for a brand to establish itself with a certain image/foundation to build up credibility and Value. Especially in the price point that Monta is playing in.

Once that is established, they can move to other themes.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

So....
Earlier today, my Bahia (date) arrived. _(wpac disclaimer - .... yeah, I know. Sorry.)_

I think, during my time away into seiko turtles etc, I had forgotten how good the subs actually are. 
The crown threads feel so, so, so much better, much tighter, no crossthreading. Even unscrewed, the crown stem is rock-solid. 
Bezel is really tight, can't even compare with the turtles (unless modded). 
Dial printing feels better. 
DLC-black steel insert > ceramic and aluminum, for sure.
Case polished lines are more crisp. Brushing is more crisp, more even and smooth too.
Brushing _on the hands_ is finer (smaller grain, more consistent) than on turtles and most other micros.

The new bracelet is a _very good upgrade_. Flexibility is great, thickness (or thin-ness) is spot on. Double-jointed articulation ftw. The new clasp is pretty good too - on the outer limit of thickness/bulk, but still within bounds of sanity. Endlinks are... I think, slightly better than before, and more tightly pressed against the case, but they could have a sharper down-slope a bit. *shrug* But, nitpicking the endlinks is literally the only thing to pick on in an otherwise stellar watch.

Overall, it's pretty surprising how tight and crisp and dense everything feels on the sub. Compared to it, most all other watches just seem floppy and loose.

Fwiw, I'm fully of the opinion that _*the subs are worth the asking price*_. There's nothing else, for the money, that can match the sub on build/construction quality.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Kerning is one of those things - I'm glad I've got Aaron handling it. 

You really want to pull your hair out - try finding handsets in your supplier's catalog. It's one of the things I hate most about what I do.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > If you've seen one Magrette, you kind of know what all Magrettes look like.
> ...


I've always loved Magrette's style. But, assuming I was just another watch geek buying watches, I'd only own one, whichever one was my favorite. There used to be a forum regular who I think owned 4-6, but I haven't seen him around lately, and I can't recall ever seeing anyone else who owned more than two Magrettes at a time.

It's not meant to be criticism, at all. It's just an observation, which relates to having a consistent design language, but also relates to whether or not a brand should make the same model indefinitely.

Logically, if all of a brand's models look more or less the same, with only very minor variations, there's not much point to buying more than one. Likewise, if a brand makes the same model over and over, they can't expect a lot of repeat sales.

But there could be a value in having a singular "look" for a brand, if it makes the brand identity more "sticky", and thereby helps market awareness, and lowers the effort involved in each new model launch.

By contrast, I know there are guys who get very loyal to one brand, and will buy each new model the brand makes, because the models are different. That's great, but the downside is it means the brand has to consistently be more creative, and accept the risk that their results with each new model will be hit or miss.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmmm. The design consistency is a weird thing. Too little or too much, you have problems either way.

Magrette is an example of too much consistency. There's literally no reason at all to have 2 or more Magrettes. You pick the one that is most to your taste, and that's enough - the others aren't different enough. Heck, even that rally-sport-car offshoot brand that Magrette spun off, even those watches look too much like Magrette.

On the other hand, too little consistency isn't good either. This may ruffle some feathers, but.. I sort of feel that way about Aevig. Their Huldra was/is an awesome design. The Corvid was/is awesome too, but so very different that I don't see any overlap beyond the logo. 2 great designs, but no crossover. The Thor, again, something completely out of left field (especially the way it ended up, trading the lume dots for basic baton indices). That 2-crown-diver watch, Balaur, again - good watch, no design relation to huldra or corvid or thor. As a fan of the Huldra, if I think "Hmm, I want a watch like that", currently Aevig doesn't have anything else to scratch that itch for something similar.

Halios... they are a bit too close to the same-same design, lately, imo. 

Zelos is perhaps doing it right. Their designs vary, quite a bit, but you can always spot a Zelos by the intangibles, be it materials, overall design and proportions sensibility... That's a good method (imo) to get and keep repeat customers.

Geckota is an interesting case study of a brand that's still trying to establish a certain "look". Their E-01, G-01 and G-02 watches share a handset, typography, proportions, and dial aesthetics, while still varying enough to feel like 3 distinct watches. And yet, they also still have stock of various other pieces (flieger, different-design dailies, older divers) that are all over the place aesthetically.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Fannums!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> So....
> Earlier today, my Bahia (date) arrived. _(wpac disclaimer - .... yeah, I know. Sorry.)_
> 
> I think, during my time away into seiko turtles etc, I had forgotten how good the subs actually are.
> ...


High praise indeed. Cheers.

None of what follows is meant as argument.

*Re - the new clasp* - I know it feels bigger than the old one. The overall length is the same, though, because the folding arms are the longest part, and they're the same. The top part of the clasp is longer, but it has to be if we want more micro-adjustments. Overall thickness is almost the same, just 0.1mm thicker on the new clasp.

When I was looking for a new clasp, I was really just looking for "better". I didn't know exactly what we wanted, I figured I'd know it when I saw it. It wasn't like I wanted to find "better" but also "no change in size", though I was looking for something that wouldn't be overly thick.

I think the new clasp is a win, generally, even if it doesn't feel quite as streamlined as the previous model. I think its virtues more than outweigh any perceived drawback.

*Re - the end-links* - I'm aware (very aware) that people have criticized the definition of the raised center-section.

While my initial assessment was that the only way to sort that out would be to use CNC-machining, with an unacceptable increase in cost, I think that assessment overlooks the root cause. The "problem" isn't that we're NOT doing CNC machining. The "problem" is a direct result of the thinness of the case and lugs.

This is a geometry challenge Rusty and I frequently struggle with, whenever we go from case design to end-link considerations.

The lugs of any case generally slope down as you move away from the thicker center of the case. If the inner surface of the end-links, where they meet the case, is curved, that circumference pushes the middle of the links outward, and the link gets thinner towards the middle.

If you want the top surface of the outer sections of the end-links to match the top surface of the lugs, the center section starts farther away from the case, and it will be thinner in the middle.

What all that means is this...

Look at the case in profile, specifically the lugs. See how thin they are. We made the outer sections of the end-links sit flush with the top surface of the lugs. The center portion, where everyone is focused on its definition from the outer portions, can't be made thicker, because its thickness is limited by the lug thickness at that point in 3D space.

If the case was thicker, the lugs would be thicker, that center section would be thicker, and there would thus be more obvious definition between the center section and the outer sections. Because of how thin the case is to start, and the way the lugs taper, the definition is reduced. That's not a quality issue, that's just geometry at work.

In other words, because of how thin the case is, we're limited in the definition we'll get from a cold-forged end-link.

Even if we were to CNC-machine those links, it wouldn't change the geometry, at all. We could get sharper edges and corners, but that's all we'd get, and the difference would be pretty minimal after finishing. The difference in tolerances between forging and CNC is 0.5mm vs 0.15mm, so 0.35mm, before you start removing material with the brushing.

I figure doing CNC-machined end-links would add at least $50, if not $100 to the retail price of the watch.

Most people wouldn't even notice the difference, and would be more likely to complain about the price. Even if I told them, "we raised the price to give you CNC end-links", most would just say, "give me the forged end-links, and let me keep my $50-$100".

Even those who actually understood and would appreciate the difference would likely find it a little disappointing in the metal, and many would end up feeling it wasn't worth the added cost.

That's a long way to go for a pretty minimal difference.

The only other thing we can do to eliminate this complaint altogether would be to switch to the other style of oyster end-link, where the male part is in the center of the next link, and it slides into the center section of the end-link. This is the style seen on Steinhart's bracelets:









With those links, the center section typically isn't raised from the other sections at all, so there's no discussion of the definition there. The only separation of those sections is from a line scored into the steel.

But there are some challenges there.

First - I hate that. I like the style we use now much better. Yes, I realize, my personal tastes aren't as important as my customers' preferences, but I'd be willing to bet customers' opinions aren't all opposite mine.

Secondly - my factory hates that. With that style of end-link, the links comes apart from the bracelet when you detach the spring bar from the lugs. It adds an additional dimension of difficulty in machining and assembly.

With the end-links we have now, there's one hole drilled through the links, and getting the spring-bar to attach is perhaps a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being stupid-easy, 10 being stupid-hard).

When you have to get the hole in the next link drilled in such a way that it perfectly aligns with the hole in the end-link, and both holes perfectly align with the holes in the lugs, it takes you from a 5 to an 8.

I've made bracelets both ways, with the "stays connected" style of end-link and the "comes apart" style. Without a doubt, the comes apart style gives us a lot more headaches, from people who take the bracelet off to fit a strap, then can't get the bracelet back onto the case later. I've easily had 5 times as many support requests from the one than the other.

We're at the point where the ONLY things people criticize about our watches now tend to be the really small things, like the definition of the center-section on the end-link, or some nominal fit-and-finish deficiency that isn't present across an entire production run, often only found with high magnification, or under some other form of intense scrutiny.

On the one hand, it drives me a bit nuts, because, A) the only complaints I get are the extremely nitpicky ones, and B) there's really nothing we can do about any of it without dramatically raising prices.

On the other hand, I try to think of it all as a testament to how right we're getting things. If the only things people can complain about in a $650 watch are truly the pickiest of the nitpicky things, we're getting it pretty damned right.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yep. 

Btw. Idk what exact type of black you chose for the Bahia dial, but it's genuinely the blackest matte black dial I've handled. (glossy black dials, sure, different thing). All other matte black dials are just dull gray-black in comparison. Idk if it's the matting texture, ink shading, or something else. No clue. All I know is, it works in a way that other matte black watches haven't.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

The OMG look of the Bahia was a surprise, better in real life than the renders, had to revise my thinking and grab one after seeing other guys photos.



Good candidate for a Jubilee


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Man alive that Skipjack is hot.

And that Azores remains the one that got away. Two great watches!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmmm. The design consistency is a weird thing. Too little or too much, you have problems either way.
> 
> Magrette is an example of too much consistency. There's literally no reason at all to have 2 or more Magrettes. You pick the one that is most to your taste, and that's enough - the others aren't different enough. Heck, even that rally-sport-car offshoot brand that Magrette spun off, even those watches look too much like Magrette.
> 
> ...


Rolex is inarguably the most successful watch brand in existence today.

Look at the Milgauss, Datejust, AirKing, and Daytona - what do those designs have in common with the Submariner range?

Nothing.

But, a Submariner is a Submariner, from across the room, from any year of production. You recognize what makes a Submariner, a Submariner.

I reckon they probably sell more Submariners than any other model, and so it makes sense for them to maintain a fairly consistent design language from one year to the next, but apparently it doesn't hurt the sales of the other models to NOT look like the Submariner.

Aevig hasn't produced multiple iterations of too many models. I think the Corvid is the only one, and the design language from one batch to the next was unchanged. A quartz Corvid from the first batch is clearly the same design as the automatic from the last batch, just a different case, by necessity.

That's not to say Aevig wouldn't benefit from making certain design elements "standard" for multiple models, but...would the Thor be better looking with the hexagonal markers from the Huldra? I doubt it. From a design perspective, there aren't many things from any Aevig model which would easily carry over to all, or even most of Chip's designs.

By contrast, Zelos seems to be trying to break land-speed records for its pace of new model release, and while I think there's enough variation to say they don't all share the same design language, I have noticed certain cues becoming recurring motifs.

For NTH - we're starting to standardize certain things. We really only use thee lume colors consistently, with a fourth occasionally. We're starting to use the same exact blue in all blue versions of the Subs, and use the same orange from one model to the next (the Zwaardvis and DevilRay orange dials are the same orange). We've been using the same two or three fonts pretty consistently.

Although they're different brands, there are design themes the Cerberus and Orthos share with the DevilRay, and which the Acionna shares with the Antilles/Azores. It wasn't necessarily intentional, more just the result of my own design sensibilities. We're developing some NTH Subs which will borrow some from our existing lexicon, established by past models.

I've started to "define" the difference between models. A "Barracuda" is gilt snowflake hands on a traditional Sub style dial pattern, with a glossy/sunray texture. Without those elements, it's not a Barracuda. Nackens have snowflake hands with square/rectangular markers. Amphions are sword hands with fully-indexed bezels and traditional Sub dial patterns.

They may not all look like each other, but a Barracuda will always look like the other Barracudas, a Nacken will always look like a Nacken, and so on.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yep.
> 
> Btw. Idk what exact type of black you chose for the Bahia dial, but it's genuinely the blackest matte black dial I've handled. (glossy black dials, sure, different thing). All other matte black dials are just dull gray-black in comparison. Idk if it's the matting texture, ink shading, or something else. No clue. All I know is, it works in a way that other matte black watches haven't.


It's a special color we call "black".

It's just that matte texture isn't very reflective, so there's less variation in the color from reflections. It may also be that we use a double-layer of slightly-blue-tinted AR on the inside of all the crystals, which may darken the appearance of the black as it's cutting down on glare.

It may also be the bezel, which isn't "black", really.

Unlike the "Ultra Black" color we specified for the bezel on the Barracuda, Skipjack and Nacken Vintage White, the color of the Bahia bezel was supposed to appear slightly weathered, and that color would be what our plating vendor calls "Dark Gun" (dark gun-metal gray).

I suppose the slightly lighter bezel color might trick your eye into perceiving the dial is that much blacker by comparison, if your mind is saying "the bezel is 'black', but look at how much blacker the dial is."

I would have preferred the bezel to be a slightly lighter color, but looking at the samples I have for all the plating colors, the other choices were all either too light, or had a touch too much brown in them.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Monta is establishing a consistent design language for the brand. I've gone back and forth about whether or not I think that's a good idea for brands. On the one hand, it simplifies product development, and creates a memorable, unified image for the brand. If you've seen one Magrette, you kind of know what all Magrettes look like.
> 
> On the other hand, people probably aren't as likely to go back and buy another, compared to the likelihood someone who owns an Aevig Valkyr might also get the Balaur, Thor, or Huldra.
> 
> ...


One thing Monta has done that's REALLY smart is that the bracelets are interchangeable between all of their models. Even though the Triumph is smaller overall than the Oceanking and Skyquest, the lugs are the same, so you could buy an Oceanking which has a far superior clasp to the bracelet that comes with the Triumph, and just use that. It does mean changing out bracelets which I absolutely hate, but you can do it, and that also allows their customers to save a bit of cash if they want to since the leather/rubber versions are cheaper.

Since Monta is still pretty young, I think it's fine for them to establish a "look" similar to the Submariner/GMT-Master/Yacht-Master etc. Those are the watches you think of when you think "Rolex," not the Sky-Dweller, or arguably even the Daytona. I like that Rolex has the guts to make the Sky-Dweller though. They could sell nothing but Submariner style dial/bezel watches and do perfectly fine, but I like that they also branch out and do completely different things, and I'd like to see Monta get there eventually.

That Rado handset is ghastly. Zodiac generally hasn't been doing total 1:1 remakes, usually they tweak a few minor details here and there and generally improve the overall design compared to the original while still being very faithful to it. There's really only been one where I've felt the changes they made weren't for the better - the compression model. The original shovel/paddle hands were not skeletonized. On the new one they are, and I don't like it as much.


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> Good candidate for a Jubilee


I'm still looking for 49 friends so Doc can make us a jubilee bracelet. Or is that 299 friends? I don't recall.

Hate that Steinhart end link gap! Same gap that the Lorier Hydra/Neptune's (excellent) bracelet has.

Love that on docs subs the end links stay attached to the rest of the bracelet...one less thing to lose!

Oh and a picture!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

househalfman said:


> I'm still looking for 49 friends so Doc can make us a jubilee bracelet. Or is that 299 friends? I don't recall.
> 
> Hate that Steinhart end link gap! Same gap that the Lorier Hydra/Neptune's (excellent) bracelet has.
> 
> ...


For a jubilee, it's 1299.


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

docvail said:


> For a jubilee, it's 1299.


Reasonable as always


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Luuurve my 'Pène&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I likes my Amphion Dark Gilt.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Am I the only one who feels good seeing pics of a watch I sold posted by the guy I sold it to?

I'm serious. Most of the watches I've sold from my own collection, I never see them again. It's cool to see another guy is enjoying one.

Sometimes it's the little things...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I've always loved Magrette's style. But, assuming I was just another watch geek buying watches, I'd only own one, whichever one was my favorite. There used to be a forum regular who I think owned 4-6, but I haven't seen him around lately, and I can't recall ever seeing anyone else who owned more than two Magrettes at a time.
> 
> It's not meant to be criticism, at all. It's just an observation, which relates to having a consistent design language, but also relates to whether or not a brand should make the same model indefinitely.
> 
> ...


I know you've currently got the L/XL in development/production, but isn't this pretty much where you're at with the Subs?

You've spend thousands of keystrokes describing how that you've figured out this watch thing and rather than go way out on a limb with something completely new (smaller sport watch, GMT, etc.), stick with a known quantity (Subs) in variations.

Of course I know that there have been all kinds of different styles done under both the NTH and L&H brands, but it sure seems like those happened before the recent make-Subs-collect-money model to which you've subscribed. Very limited perspective on my side, having not been in this for too long and not knowing much history of NTH at all. But that's what I get out of your recent posts -- you've figured out what works, why mess with a good thing?

So now we get a rotation of subs and sub designs, variations on themes, with the same basic case, movement, etc. Nothing wrong with that, as you note, establishing a niche and brand design identity is never a bad thing.

But at this point, it seems like NTH is settling into the same thing you are faulting Magrette for. I take a look at the Subs range and think to myself, "Man, I should really get one of those to check out what the Subs are all about. Maybe next time they do one with date and 12hr bezel..." Not, "I need five different NTH Subs."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I know you've currently got the L/XL in development/production, but isn't this pretty much where you're at with the Subs?
> 
> You've spend thousands of keystrokes describing how that you've figured out this watch thing and rather than go way out on a limb with something completely new (smaller sport watch, GMT, etc.), stick with a known quantity (Subs) in variations.
> 
> ...


I wasn't faulting Magrette at all.

I don't think there is anything wrong with putting the coals to a good thing. If a business discovers a winning formula, why change it?

I once had a job making great money without working very hard, and my boss left me alone. Great benefits, two assistants, and a nice company-paid vacation every year. Like an idiot, I got bored/fed up when things started to change, and quit. I've since sworn, many times, I'd never make that mistake again.

There's an expression in sales, "that worked so well, we stopped doing it." It happens more often than you'd think. I'm determined not to let it happen to me.

The growth I plan for the business will come from a combination of new customers and repeat sales to existing customers. At this moment in time, we can't keep up with demand for the Subs, so that's where most of my focus is, but I don't plan to stop development of new products.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of the Zodiac GMT, this isn't surprising...










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> So....
> Earlier today, my Bahia (date) arrived. _(wpac disclaimer - .... yeah, I know. Sorry.)_
> 
> I think, during my time away into seiko turtles etc, I had forgotten how good the subs actually are.
> ...


Exactly my thoughts!

Just to add to "There's nothing else, for the money, that can match the sub on build/construction quality."

Since I have the sub I lost interest in more expensive or similar priced watches. Sure, I can get better finish, precious metals or sophisticated movements up there but I don't see the value in it personally, because if I do the maths, it always ends up that the Näcken ticks more boxes and the to me more important boxes than anything else out there.

I'd say apart from vintage Seikos that are uber cool, over engineered Vostok Amphibias or G-Shocks with sensors, the interest in getting something shiny new is gone. Reached the "GADA" goal and moving on


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

docvail said:


> Am I the only one who feels good seeing pics of a watch I sold posted by the guy I sold it to?
> 
> I'm serious. Most of the watches I've sold from my own collection, I never see them again. It's cool to see another guy is enjoying one.
> 
> Sometimes it's the little things...


Always gets an instant "like" from me! Same thing with guys posting pictures of a watch he bought from a guy I sold it to.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

I think microbrands like Nodus and Lorier have built a good brand look built around similar designs but each a little different.

Lorier with the neptune and hydra (and falcon models)

And Nodus with the retrospect, avalon, etc. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

I hate that guys sell watches on reddit, which sucks. Saw an NTH there, don’t know how to contact the seller. 

Must be a much bigger buyer pool here on WUS F/29 sales forum.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Speaking of the Zodiac GMT, this isn't surprising...
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


Yup, looks like Topper already sold through their allotment as well. The Rally bezels which Zodiac announced awhile back of are still around though, definitely much less hype there.


----------



## applejosh (Aug 29, 2015)

docvail said:


> We're developing some NTH Subs which will borrow some from our existing lexicon, established by past models.


Please be the dog logo
Please be the dog logo
Please be the dog logo
...


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

applejosh said:


> Please be the dog logo
> Please be the dog logo
> Please be the dog logo
> ...


No such luck. This is the Nth brand. That is the pew and huey. Being a veterinarian, I LOVE sparky....


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

applejosh said:


> Please be the dog logo
> Please be the dog logo
> Please be the dog logo
> ...


No such luck. This is the Nth brand. That is the pew and huey. Being a veterinarian, I LOVE sparky....

This time I am 100 percent certain i did nothing to get the double post. I just pressed the button once, and waited.....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> That is the pew and huey....


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Thanks Doc, that pic made me smile.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> I fixed the link. Blame forum software. Here it is again -
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BvPClYGHLUQ/
> ...


An autavia should be a chrono. And it was. Releasing a three hand field watch as an autavia muddies what it is. Heuer is best when they mine their own history. This one just doesn't add up for me.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14002629


Doc, the meme lord, vail.

Check out the meme thread @ f2. That's the highest quality content on the public forum


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

vmarks said:


> An autavia should be a chrono. And it was. Releasing a three hand field watch as an autavia muddies what it is. Heuer is best when they mine their own history. This one just doesn't add up for me.


I hadn't even thought of that.

I love vintage Autavia chronos, and that three-hander doesn't seem worthy of the name. I don't know if it's so much because it's a 3-hander, or because it's just so NOT an Autavia, as compared to the 3-hand versions of the Carrera and Monaco.

The 3-hand Monaco is still clearly a Monaco. Tag has made so many versions of the Carrera that it seems like almost any Tag that isn't a Monaco, Monza or Autavia could be a Carrera. But the Autavias were so distinct and iconic, it doesn't feel right to make something so different and slap that name on the dial.

Of course I'm biased towards micros, but I think anyone who's capable of being objective would see that micros as a group are generating more interesting designs than the big-name brands these days.

The Hamilton "Murph" and blue Alpinist didn't even register as blips on my radar screen. But look at the Royal Europe or Avant Garde from Vratislavia Conceptum. Look at the upcoming Nexus from Gruppo Gamma, a true jumping-hour watch inspired by depth gauges.

Look at the Ianos Avyssos using a hand-wind Peseux movement on Kickstarter right now. Look at the designs coming from Sergio DiRenzo (I've seen what he's working on next, and it's awesome). Look at the Aevig Thor. Look at the Orion Sylph. Look at anything from Visitor.

You want "real" horology? Check out Brellum. I'd murder a Pygmy to have a blue Pandial. You want techo-wizardry? Look at the case technology of Mauron Musy, or Formex.

Most of these brands get little to no attention from the big blogs.

I'm not saying every microbrand is doing amazing work. Some are crap. But as a group, compared to stuff coming from the big-name brands? C'mon, micros are the modern-day impressionists.

_"Impressionism can be considered the first distinctly modern movement in painting. Developing in Paris in the 1860s, its influence spread throughout Europe and eventually the United States. Its originators were artists who rejected the official, government-sanctioned exhibitions, or salons, and were consequently shunned by powerful academic art institutions."_


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Can anyone confirm whether there is another batch of NTH subs due soon and especially if there will be any of the Barracuda Vintage Blacks available?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Can anyone confirm whether there is another batch of NTH subs due soon and especially if there will be any of the Barracuda Vintage Blacks available?


Yes, yes, and yes.


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

How soon is soon? 

Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Yes, yes, and yes.


Thanks doc!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Poerger said:


> How soon is soon?
> 
> Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


Really very soon.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Really very soon.


That's a direct quote from his faq page.....


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Really very soon.


That's a direct quote from his faq page.....


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Of course I'm biased towards micros, but I think anyone who's capable of being objective would see that micros as a group are generating more interesting designs than the big-name brands these days.
> 
> The Hamilton "Murph" and blue Alpinist didn't even register as blips on my radar screen. But look at the Royal Europe or Avant Garde from Vratislavia Conceptum. Look at the upcoming Nexus from Gruppo Gamma, a true jumping-hour watch inspired by depth gauges.
> 
> ...


Generally I would agree, although honestly I think the Royal Europe just looks like a DateJust homage with a different case, one that's not an improvement over Rolex's design. Not the most original thing I've seen lately. One top end micro that has caught my eye though is the Laventure Sous-Marine. The original "steampunk Nautilus" fixed bezel version didn't quite do it for me, but I think it works _so much better_ with the steel dive time bezel.

View attachment 14004975


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Everyone congratulate @GlenRoiland for earning his black belt in brazilian jiu jitsu. Seriously. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> That's a direct quote from his faq page.....


Paraphrased by the blog post I just...erm...posted.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Everyone congratulate @GlenRoiland for earning his black belt in brazilian jiu jitsu. Seriously.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you don't, he'll choke you unconscious.

And you don't want to know what happens to guys as they lay there unconscious in the dojo.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

hey guys.. do know when nth or if Chris is reading this when will barracuda vintage (date) will come back in stock?


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Chris? Chris's not here man.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

yankeexpress said:


> I hate that guys sell watches on reddit, which sucks. Saw an NTH there, don't know how to contact the seller.
> 
> Must be a much bigger buyer pool here on WUS F/29 sales forum.


That was mine, honestly I'm having better luck on reddit and eBay than WUS recently.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

hwa said:


> Everyone congratulate @GlenRoiland for earning his black belt in brazilian jiu jitsu. Seriously.


Tackle & Grapple!

...someone please post the .gif of the K&P sketch.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

liquidtension said:


> hey guys.. do know when nth or if Chris is reading this when will barracuda vintage (date) will come back in stock?


Check his response to this question here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post48511037.html#post48511037


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Hornet99 said:


> Check his response to this question here:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post48511037.html#post48511037


got it.. F5 will be my best friend for now...


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Hornet99 said:


> Check his response to this question here:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post48511037.html#post48511037


duplication bug.... please delete.


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

> Interested in one of the NTH Subs? Be sure to contact your.closest NTH Retailer.to get on their waiting list.


I sure am.

Doc, is the barracuda vintage only available through the retailers or also in your shop?

Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dupe post.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Poerger said:


> I sure am.
> 
> Doc, is the barracuda vintage only available through the retailers or also in your shop?
> 
> Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


Depends on how many my retailers buy.

They get first "dibs". Whatever they don't buy, I'd more than likely put up for sale in my own store.

But my long-term goal is to focus more of my business efforts on product development and manufacturing, less on the stuff directly related to getting product into the customers' hands.

So I've been advising everyone to start getting to know our NTH retail partners, and not planning on the NTH website being the first, last, or only place to buy an NTH watch. More often than not, the retailers will be able to maintain their stock levels better than I can.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I would like to ask everyone to please understand - the forum isn't the best way to get all your questions answered, if you're hoping I'll be the one answering. We've got a website, with a blog, an email newsletter, a business page on Facebook, and an Instagram account. Even if you're not on FB or IG, c'mon, there's the website, the email newsletter, the blog. 

I can't be available for answers on-demand 24/7. The website and email newsletter are going to be the most reliable sources of Chris-provided info, followed by the social media pages, and then by anyone here who's been paying attention.

I can't post a link to my site. Anyone else can. The home page has two big product sections - "In Stock", and "Coming Soon". All the target timelines, the models coming, etc - it's all there, and up to date. 

The top navigation has links to the easily-navigated blog, and a dedicated page for links to our partners' websites. The site is searchable for key words. The FAQ's are also searchable.

I know part of the appeal of "micro" brands is the direct interaction with the brand owner. I don't plan on going full-on "No one can see the wizard", but that doesn't mean I can spend all day playing one-on-one games of "stump the chump" with whoever has time to kill at work but doesn't feel like opening up another tab on their web browser.

Please understand that I do my best to make all the answers to all the questions readily available, for anyone who is interested enough to spend two minutes looking for them on our website. 

It's just not possible to maintain a high-level of support AND be available online for 24/7 on-demand answers. My priority will always be on providing the best possible support to those who use the channel we have dedicated to providing it (that would be the website). 

It's "e-commerce", emphasis on the "e", as in "electronic". Like it says in my signature - the website is your go-to source for authoritative info and support.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Generally I would agree, although honestly I think the Royal Europe just looks like a DateJust homage with a different case, one that's not an improvement over Rolex's design.


Really?

Numbers on the dial - Omega and perhaps some others

Baton markers, hands? Sure Rolex has them on the DJ but that's just such a generic feature, every 5th dive watch has them.

Case is a King Seiko homage.

Dial texture looks amazing, similar to GS stuff there. To me it clearly pays homage to the vintage KS.

here is mine


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Really?
> 
> Numbers on the dial - Omega and perhaps some others
> 
> ...


This.

If it wasn't already obvious - I care about case design, a lot. For some guys, it's date windows, or lume, or bracelets. For me, a well executed case is a thing of beauty, and a $hltty case design makes me want to put in a tube sock and beat the designer about the head, neck and shoulders with it.

So...yeah, they did a Seiko homage case, which...no one else worth discussing seems to be doing.

Hands/dial? Stick hands, baton markers - don't piss down my leg and tell me it's raining Rolex Datejusts.

It's 40.5mm. Okay, I'd have made it smaller, but that wasn't the point of the post where I mentioned it.

The point was - screw all the un-earned praise, lavishly heaped upon the latest v.0.0.0.X iteration of the whatever model from the big brands dropping Puerto Rico's GDP in Basel this week. The small brands are doing more, with less, and charging you WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY less to get it.

You guys do realize - these big-boy brands are as "old world craftsman" as the guys staring into Bloomberg terminals down on Wall Street, right? It's BUSINESS for them. There's no true passion in what they're doing, no love of the art in any of this, no thought given to what the customer actually thinks, feels, or says once money's been exchanged.

Like the VC Royal Europe or hate it, it's a small company putting something beautiful into the world, and making it accessible for most people who'll see it.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep 6









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Oh come on. In terms of the dial - I'm not talking about the case - the nod to the DateJust is more than a little obvious, and nothing at all like that KS. Stick a cyclops on it and it's a near copy.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Oh come on. In terms of the dial - I'm not talking about the case - the nod to the DateJust is more than a little obvious, and nothing at all like that KS. Stick a cyclops on it and it's a near copy.
> 
> View attachment 14008957
> 
> ...


You missed the point.

It's okay. Different strokes for different folks. We don't all need to like the same things, nor do we all need to agree on who's being clever and who's a bore.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Uh, hey, doc... when I check your blog pages ( https://nthwatches.com/blogs/news ), I cannot figure out what the ordering is. Is it chronological? reverse chronological? random? Is the newest stuff on top, or bottom?

(Edit: okay, I see, reverse chronological. Just thinking, it would help at a glance if the post picture square had a small date on it, too).


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I can't post a link to my site. Anyone else can. The home page has two big product sections - "In Stock", and "Coming Soon".


Coming soon: https://nthwatches.com/collections/coming-soon

In Stock: https://nthwatches.com/collections/in-stock

BTW, the planned run for Scorpene in black -- will there be date models, too...? Edit: Nevermind -- saw "Coming Soon" for date model on A Time To Watch...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Uh, hey, doc... when I check your blog pages ( https://nthwatches.com/blogs/news ), I cannot figure out what the ordering is. Is it chronological? reverse chronological? random? Is the newest stuff on top, or bottom?
> 
> (Edit: okay, I see, reverse chronological. Just thinking, it would help at a glance if the post picture square had a small date on it, too).


Don't know if that functionality is available.

Either way, most blogs are organized that way - most recent post first, then preceding posts in reverse chronological order. Doing it any other way would seem to be the opposite of what would be most useful to readers.

Also struggling to understand why it would help to see post dates on the menu page. It's not like I've posted about the same topics more than once, other than to discuss what's in our production plan. That info is more readily available simply by looking at the "coming soon" section of the website.

Worst case, when you go into the blog posts, I believe the date is there, so anyone reading for more expansive detail would be able to see if they were looking at a post which has since become "old news".

I'm just trying to think of the "use case" here. Someone finds the blog, it's in most current to least current order. It's unlikely they'd somehow end up looking at old news first, and be confused.

Judging by the emails and comments we get through social media, the biggest challenge isn't organization of the information we make available, it's actually getting people to read it at all.

ME: "Here are pics of the Odin, coming in April/May. Full details here: ______ [link to page with full pricing and specs]."

THE INTERNET: "Wow. When and where can I buy this? How much is it? What are the specs? Why does your website say it's unavailable?"

I mean...there are some things no amount of smart action on my part can fix.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yeah. Encouraging clickthroughs is difficult. That's what you get with blogposts, very few people bother reading them. Youtube video, somehow, is less of a barrier to consumption.

I think, maybe, people don't lik to switch platforms or environments... Here on WUS, most people who are into NTH will read the NTH thread's last few posts - so any info you post here will be seen by the WUS locals. CLickthrough to a blog might be far less. On instagram, whoever is browsing there, will see the images there and the accompanying text. But, clickingthrough to a different website with entirely different content is a no-no.

Same for youtube, imo - people on youtube will watch the vids, and then watch other vids - but they won't easily click out of youtube. 

No matter how you cut it, written content on a blog is not "native" to any of the platforms where people are - so you have to force them to clickthrough - which they often won't. Putting the content itself on the platforms where people are, is more effective for getting the casual eyeballs.

Whoever figures out how to get people to buy things directly off of youtube/instagram without needing to go to a shop site, will be raking $$$$$$$$$. (Maybe, for instagram, this is already happening, Idk).

(also, + all this to facebook, I guess - I don't use Facebook so I don't know if there is any community there beyond crazy free gun men rights speech activists and political-influencer bots targeting racist domestic grannies).


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Oh come on. In terms of the dial - I'm not talking about the case - the nod to the DateJust is more than a little obvious, and nothing at all like that KS. Stick a cyclops on it and it's a near copy.
> 
> View attachment 14008957
> 
> ...


One of those watches is pig-..... ugly- and it's not the green one........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ossamanity (Nov 28, 2016)

Bored on a domestic flight with no tv? Well 
take pictures of your NTH.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah. Encouraging clickthroughs is difficult. That's what you get with blogposts, very few people bother reading them. Youtube video, somehow, is less of a barrier to consumption.
> 
> I think, maybe, people don't lik to switch platforms or environments... Here on WUS, most people who are into NTH will read the NTH thread's last few posts - so any info you post here will be seen by the WUS locals. CLickthrough to a blog might be far less. On instagram, whoever is browsing there, will see the images there and the accompanying text. But, clickingthrough to a different website with entirely different content is a no-no.
> 
> ...


So...

*"Encouraging clickthroughs is difficult. That's what you get with blogposts, very few people bother reading them."*

If you're reading my blog, you're already on our website. No click-through necessary.

Do you know where our website traffic comes from? I do.

Over - WELL OVER - 90% is what I consider "organic". It's from people who type our brand or model name into their search, or navigate directly to our site, without clicking through a link from anywhere else.

Of the remaining 10%, the vast majority of that is coming through social media. Most of that is funneled directly from our accounts on FB and IG.

Click-throughs aren't my concern.

*"Youtube video, somehow, is less of a barrier to consumption."*

My experience reading comments on YT hasn't demonstrated to me that there's a substantive difference in information uptake and comprehension.

Case in point, in the recent video review of the NTH Odin, the video's text description starts out with "New NTH Odin subs will be released May 2019", and the first three seconds of the video's sound is Rob saying "Alright guys, I want to talk about a NEW RELEASE FROM NTH..."

And yet, almost right away, and even weeks later...

















*"I think, maybe, people don't lik to switch platforms or environments... Here on WUS, most people who are into NTH will read the NTH thread's last few posts - so any info you post here will be seen by the WUS locals. CLickthrough to a blog might be far less. On instagram, whoever is browsing there, will see the images there and the accompanying text. But, clickingthrough to a different website with entirely different content is a no-no."*

I have to disagree with you.

WUS is great in many ways, but as an easily search-able archive of on-demand info, everyone knows it's doo-doo. It's set up for real-time discussion. It's anything but ideal for the purpose of a manufacturer providing static information to the market.

THAT's what the WEBSITE is for.

You can't buy my watches on WUS. You have to buy them on a website, either mine, or increasingly, one of our retailers. I cannot fathom how someone who understands WHERE to BUY a thing doesn't understand that same place where you buy it is also WHERE you find INFORMATION about that THING you BUY.

If, on the other hand, you're on our Facebook business page, we have the functionality available, which will let you buy the product right there, from that page, without having to navigate to the site. The app kind of sucks, if you ask me, but it exists, so the FB page is at least a more seamless communication-store interface than a forum.

But, as it happens, most people who go to our FB page do NOT buy through FB. They buy off our website, or now, through one of our retailers.

Likewise, if you're on Instagram, you can email us directly from our IG profile. When we tag a product in our posts, something we often do, it'll take you right to the integration with Facebook store, as well as give you the option to view it on our website (where most people buy it).

I have detailed analytics which can, theoretically, tell me all I want to know about click-through rates and sources of web traffic, but, honestly, I don't really need that data to tell me what I already know, and learned before Al Gore invented the internet.

When someone wants to buy something, especially a thing like a watch, where all the data shows buyers tend to do a good bit of pre-purchase research - ON THEIR OWN - they tend to be self-motivated to find the info on their own.

Conversely, when someone posts those questions that rookies think of as "buying questions", like 'How much?' or 'What size?' I rate the probability of a future purchase by that person as extremely low.

Why?

Because - you're already on the internet. You know how to get on a forum, or Facebook, or Instagram, or YouTube, or Pinterest, or Twitter, etc. You went to the trouble of creating a user account in order to access content, and leave your own commentary. You know the internet is where things are bought and sold. There's more commerce being done online now than in bricks-and-mortar stores.

You can't possibly expect me to believe that you're seriously interested in making a purchase of my watch, and yet, you don't even know what price it is, or what size it is, or what movement is in it, or what the specs are, or when it will be available, nor can I believe you're simply incapable, or merely too busy, to access that information.

Stop. Right. There. Read that again.

You want me to believe you want the watch, and yet - you know nothing at all about it.

You don't want it. You don't. Period. You want me to see your comment about it, or your question. Maybe you're "testing my responsiveness". If so, go pound sand. I'm not here to be tested. Maybe you want to be my friend. My friendships don't start that way.

Read all the above again, from the top. Almost all the traffic to our website is organic. Almost all purchases are made there, not through our social media pages. Everyone who actually makes a purchase manages to do it via a website.

All the data proves - unequivocally - that most watch purchases made by watch enthusiasts are made only after A LOT of research. Our typical conversion happens after someone's been to our website a dozen times or more. Yes, 12, sometimes 20 times, before a purchase is made. We see the breadcrumb trail for every conversion. Even with people clearing cookies and cache, the percentages don't change.

When I was paying for web display ads, I looked at Google website analytics every month, to measure the ROI of our ad spend. 100% of our sales were made after a miles-long breadcrumb trail, with multiple visits spread out over weeks, if not months.

Trust me - six years doing this, obsessive attention to every spec of data, an exhaustive analysis of every conceivable trend, and no effort spared to uncover every insight of even the smallest potential value.

I know what moves the needle, and rings the register. We're sold out, of everything, at full price.

Does it seem like I don't have things very well in hand?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just to add to the above, in a tangential way...

I'm in a FB group which is ostensibly for microbrand "creators", despite the fact that there are a few hundred members, and only a small percentage are truly brand owners.

I recently had a friendly discussion/debate with someone who is in fact, a peer, a guy who I met in Hong Kong last year, who is nice enough, and with whom I get along.

He was asking about retail distribution in one particular region of the world. As it happens, I've noticed something strange about this region. When I look at the analytics regarding our social media followers, I see a disproportionately high number of followers from this region.

Why "disproportionate"? Because the percentages can't be explained simply by population density or apparent access to the internet. There's more going on than the obvious.

I've also noticed a remarkably high correlation between those "How much?" sorts of comments and people from this region. And, I will go to my grave quite certain that never, in all the history of anyone buying anything, has anyone made their business a success rushing to assist customers who start out that way, asking the price on a product before knowing anything else about it. 

Further, this region isn't home to the sort of well-developed, mature economies known for having a thriving middle class, which is the primary target customer for mid-market watches. 

When I suggested to my friend that there seemed to be something cultural going on, leading to a high volume of time-wasting behavior emanating from that region, my friend responded by saying my description could apply to any people, from anywhere, who just happen to be on the internet.

My hot take - you either get that I'm achieving different results by doing things differently, or you can't understand how I'm doing it, when I seem to be doing everything "wrong", as compared to "how everyone else does it", and you assume everyone else is actually "right".

Most everyone else is struggling, because of how they're all doing it. My business is doing quite well, thank you very much, because of how I'm doing it. I've even offered to show others how to do it, to include introducing others to my key advisors, just as I've introduced peers to my primary suppliers in the past.

I'm not cut-throat about this. I want to see my peers succeed. I do what I can to explain why I do what I do, and provide all the supporting data, as well as my reasoning. 

I'm at the point where I'm struggling to even communicate with my peers any more, because the gap has widened to the point where the "facts" can't even be agreed upon.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

^^ This is why I don't ever read the comments on YouTube. I've never seen a better case for the "people are stupid" argument than a YouTube comments section.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Ossamanity said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dang, monochrome Amphion is hot stuff!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Found the perfect strap for the Bahia. Here it is:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

THE INDUSTRY: "Are you going to Baselworld?"

ME: "Nope. Never do."

TI: "Why not?"

ME: "Don't see the point in it."

TI: "But, but, but...it's BASEL. You have to go."

ME: "Why?"

TI: "Because everyone who's anyone will be there."

ME: "Like who?"

TI: "Well, all the big brands..."

ME: "Don't care."

TI: "And retailers..."

ME: "Which ones? The ones I'm already in business with, or the other ones I see dumping their inventory at huge discounts when it doesn't turn within six months?"

TI: "Well, also the bloggers..."

ME: "Which ones? The mega-bloggers, from *AMERICA*, who won't give me the time of day, or the small ones, from *AMERICA*, who I'm already working with? You know I also live here in America, right? I could see most of these guys in NY. I could buy them all dinner at Smith & Wol's. If they bothered to respond to me, I might even do it. Why do I need to fly to Switzerland to be ignored by guys when I can be ignored by them from the comfort of home?"

TI: "Well, don't you have a new model to reveal?"

ME: "Revealed it months ago. Email newsletter. Website. Blog. Social Media. Got blog reviews and video reviews done. Currently building the image archive. Cost me next to nothing."

TI: "Well, you should go, at least once. EVERYONE goes to Basel."

One. Week. Later...

ME: "So...how was Basel?"

TI: "Oh, my gawd. It was EMPTY. There was NO ONE there."

---

There's a show coming up. I just heard about it. Just like Wind-Up, my invitation must have gotten lost in the mail.

The organizers are charging $5,000 for a table. I'd have to fly there, and stay in a hotel. My wife will probably want to come with me. Even if not, I'll have to bring someone with me to help man the table. 

If I don't have any inventory available to display and sell, there's no way I can make the trip pay. If I do have inventory, I'll have to ship it there, then ship it back.

I figure, conservatively, that show would cost me $7500, probably closer to $10,000.

I'd have to sell ~15-20 watches to make the show "worth it." Could I do that? Maybe. Don't know. Hard to know what I'd sell there. I know we're sold out without me having to go there.

Last year, I flew to Atlanta for their GTG. I stayed with a friend who lives there, for free. I attended the GTG, for free. I offered to kick in some money, for the privilege of being there, but the organizer, WUS moderator gaopa, wouldn't have it. I bought lunch for three friends, and flew there and back. All-in, the trip cost me about $500. 

I got to meet my college friend's new wife, glad-hand with a bunch of cool watch-bros, including half a dozen or more forum regulars I've known from here for 5-6 years, but had never met, and put my product in front of at least 50 people, plus made a new contact with a blogger, who did a nice review and posted some nice pics to IG.

I could go to 15 or 20 of those, anywhere from Boston to Atlanta, and as far West as Chicago, and be home in my own bed by the end of the weekend, for what I'd spend going to this upcoming show. I've gone to every GTG in Baltimore/DC for the last 5 years, attended two in NY, taken a train up to one in New England, flown to Atlanta, and organized 5 or 6 GTG's in my own backyard.

Once again, I've organized our upcoming Mid-Atlantic GTG, here in Philly. Last year, we had over 50 guys who came in from as far away as DC and NY. I always go out of my way to make it crystal clear to all my microbrand owner peers - you're welcome to attend. It costs you NOTHING to be there, other than your travel costs. You can sell any inventory you bring with you. I'm not charging a dime for the time I spent putting this shindig together.

How many brand owners do you think come? How many do you think I see when I'm in DC, NY, RI, or ATL? 

They're all elbowing each other out of the way to go to these events with low ROI. They tell me it's good to get the product in front of the people. Yeah, I know, I've been saying that for years, as I was explaining why I travel up and down the East Coast going to regional GTG's. 

You know what else is good? Engaging directly with customers on forums and through social media, rather than hiding out and spending exorbitant sums on internet ads that don't work (trust, me, I've seen the numbers firsthand). You get more mileage out of a well-written blog post than a well-designed digital ad.

But...what do I know? I'm just the guy who doesn't piss money away needlessly, and sells out near instantly.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Alright all you WoTers,

Bling bling










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

ck2k01 said:


> Alright all you WoTers,


Right? Geebus Cripes!

Bahia in the light of the break room window:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

The only white dial watch I like enough to own.










I suppose GS snowflakes are cool but I'm not spending ~$5k on one, thank you very much. Moreover, I assume Doc could make me a similarly textured dial for way cheaper if he cared to-which I have no doubt he doesn't.

EDIT: the last sentence is a compliment, not a goad.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Oh Yeah?? Gor blimey - Scorpène, slight illumination via the muted mid-afternoon gloom in the garden.....









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OMG, Basel...

https://www.fratellowatches.com/beware-swiss-customs-targeting-baselworld-2019-attendees/

Short version - tired of spending $400/night to stay in a rent-a-dump hotel room (I know someone who went to Basel this year, that's what his room cost, and it was, apparently, a dump), the author outwits greedy Swiss hoteliers by staying in Germany or France, and taking a short train ride into Basel.

Unfortunately, he neglected to declare the watches he had with him, which apparently were quite valuable.

I'm no customs expert, but I think the rule is, if you're planning to leave with whatever you have, it's personal property, and not subject to customs.

Likewise, I'm no VAT expert, but I think sellers are required to pay VAT on goods sold, when sold, not on goods brought in just to show people, and which might not be sold.

Didn't matter. Swiss customs officials assessed USD $4,000 in taxes, duties and fines, and our author now faces the impenetrable might of Swiss tax authorities if he wants to reclaim their ill-gotten booty.

So much for trying to save money on your trip to Switzerland.

My every-other-year trip to Hong Kong costs me $3k, all-in, including food and (often copious) booze. My hotel rooms have ranged in size from "cozy but well appointed" to "why is there an echo in here?", and never have I not had one with a decent view of the water or mountainside.

Unlike Baselworld, the show is free to enter. A sandwich, bag of chips, and 12oz Coke in the HK convention center might be $10. At Basel, a 10oz Diet Coke is $12.

I've gone in and out of HK with half a dozen watches in my bag, and never had so much as a stern look from customs officials. The choices for in-flight entertainment provided by Cathay Pacific Airways are slightly less expansive than what I can get at home with cable, Amazon Prime, and Netflix.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

I read the Fratello Watches post and there's no question he got screwed. I know some people weren't on his side but it's clear to me that Swiss customs customs just flat out chose to disregard a reality they've already seen for years.


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

Chris, as much as I enjoy reading your posts and getting an insider's glimpse into your industry, sometimes I worry for you that you risk oversharing invaluable insight which gives your business an edge. Then I read this



docvail said:


> Most everyone else is struggling, because of how they're all doing it. My business is doing quite well, thank you very much, because of how I'm doing it. I've even offered to show others how to do it, to include introducing others to my key advisors, just as I've introduced peers to my primary suppliers in the past.
> 
> I'm not cut-throat about this. I want to see my peers succeed. I do what I can to explain why I do what I do, and provide all the supporting data, as well as my reasoning.


and it all makes sense.

You're a good man, Chris Doc Vail.. don't change. b-)


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> It's okay. Different strokes for different folks. We don't all need to like the same things, nor do we all need to agree on who's being clever and who's a bore.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


Fair. Your overall contention I think is quite valid though, it _is_ the micro guys that are doing the really interesting things these days, even if we don't agree 100% on what's interesting and what isn't. Even little things - I mentioned to Sergio for example that I've never seen anyone do a a blue sandwich dial with blue lume under it, anywhere, on any watch. I'm sure it's possible that someone did, but I've never seen it. I can't even recall a blue/blue watch with painted or applied lume. That version of the Drz_02 is _incredibly_ unique and cool, and I had to have one. Then there's other little things that micros can do. Laventure lets you pick a color and _length_ of leather strap to go with your Sous-Marine. This is critical, because the strap is fitted to the lugs - I can't just slap a 20mm Chris Ward in there and call it a day like I do with the rest of my watches. Omega isn't doing that.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tc3 said:


> Chris, as much as I enjoy reading your posts and getting an insider's glimpse into your industry, sometimes I worry for you that you risk oversharing invaluable insight which gives your business an edge. Then I read this
> 
> and it all makes sense.
> 
> You're a good man, Chris Doc Vail.. don't change. b-)


Opinions vary...

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4703691&share_fid=13788&share_type=t

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Opinions vary...
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4703691&share_fid=13788&share_type=t
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


To adopt a well patina'd colloquialism, wtf?!

He wasn't a disgruntled, unsponsored life guard, was he?

Mind you, while I am a fan of supremely well constructed verbal beatdowns, I'm somewhat glad Doc didn't grace that particular gem.

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Opinions vary...
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4703691&share_fid=13788&share_type=t
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


No one tell him that Lotus uses Toyota Camry engines in their cars. He'll probably have an aneurysm.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Opinions vary...
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4703691&share_fid=13788&share_type=t
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


No one tell him that Lotus uses Toyota Camry engines in their cars. He'll probably have an aneurysm.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> Opinions vary...
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4703691&share_fid=13788&share_type=t
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


I missed that thread when it happened. I loved the "I have a 3.98 GPA at a major university". What a classic douche bag statement.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> Opinions vary...
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4703691&share_fid=13788&share_type=t
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


Wow, that made me feel both sad and glad at the same time that I don't get to hang around the forums more.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> To adopt a well patina'd colloquialism, wtf?!
> 
> He wasn't a disgruntled, unsponsored life guard, was he?
> 
> ...





Davekaye90 said:


> No one tell him that Lotus uses Toyota Camry engines in their cars. He'll probably have an aneurysm.





MarkND said:


> I missed that thread when it happened. I loved the "I have a 3.98 GPA at a major university". What a classic douche bag statement.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk





tc3 said:


> Wow, that made me feel both sad and glad at the same time that I don't get to hang around the forums more.


This was the post that won that thread:









I forget what I was trying to do when I went back in time and found that thread the other day, but whatever it was, I had to stop and re-read some of the comments.

When someone starts off with an epic rant like that, you know hilarity is about to ensue.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Oh, I forgot why I came back here just now...

Next episode of Doc's House Calls, this one with the guys from Nodus, goes live tomorrow at 10 am EDT (GMT-4). 

No, the sound isn't better than it was on the first episode. We're using trial-and-error to figure out what combination of settings works. I think the problem might be that I'm one of those idiots who talks louder when there's some electronic device transmitting the messages back and forth. 

We'll see if I can remember to use my "inside voice" when we do our next call. 

After Nodus, we've got Straton and Hamtun. You can hear my guests better on both those calls, but, unfortunately, I sound like I'm using the "Charlie Brown's Teacher" trombone filter on my end.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Some pics I took of the Odin Black today.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> This was the post that won that thread:
> 
> View attachment 14010937


Oh heck, yeah! I'm still laughing at that comment. Well played, OvrSteer!

The GPA comment made me think of this...


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I think I'm obsessed with this brand.. more obsessed when I can't get a hand of it.. help.


----------



## StevenNguyen (Mar 5, 2019)

Love all things have Blue on this


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

tc3 said:


> Chris, as much as I enjoy reading your posts and getting an insider's glimpse into your industry, sometimes I worry for you that you risk oversharing invaluable insight which gives your business an edge. Then I read this
> 
> and it all makes sense.
> 
> You're a good man, Chris Doc Vail.. don't change. b-)


You are all assuming that doc's watch business that's doing well.

You also haven't seen much lately from sparky....and now I know why.

Doc's rebranded and is making his money on his new venture. I bet the watch business is just his hobby:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> You are all assuming that doc's watch business that's doing well.
> 
> You also haven't seen much lately from sparky....and now I know why.
> 
> ...


Now that explains the smoke and mirrors!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> You are all assuming that doc's watch business that's doing well.
> 
> You also haven't seen much lately from sparky....and now I know why.
> 
> ...


At first glance, I read that as costumed magic whores.

And I was like, "damn, why didn't I think of that?"


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Now that explains the smoke and mirrors!


the watches are what's smokin'

View attachment 14011931


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

The Watcher said:


> the watches are what's smokin'
> 
> View attachment 14011931


Somebody's smoking something!


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I'll just leave this here

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ossamanity (Nov 28, 2016)

Man I love the texture of this dial.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Omegafanboy said:


> [/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190328/ebb64a8ebbc86c4c00e87b7d7cdfdf7c.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> I'll just leave this here
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Miss mine with those hands. Super cool piece.



Ossamanity said:


> Man I love the texture of this dial.
> 
> [/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190328/958690e9691f1c0288633a79fcc8c643.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I love the textured dial subs most!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


>


I'm enjoying these vids, Doc.

Nice lineup of brands, casual/collegial/open vibe, a little prying on your end (so we learn something new), etc.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I'm enjoying these vids, Doc.
> 
> Nice lineup of brands, casual/collegial/open vibe, a little prying on your end (so we learn something new), etc.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was just thinking about this earlier today - I'm enjoying these chats, a lot.

Most of these guys, we've "known" each other to some degree already, but for the most part, the familiarity is limited, even a bit superficial.

I've met Phil from Visitor twice that I can remember, but both times were at shows or get-togethers, where people tend to be a more buttoned-up version of themselves. I think we spoke on the phone once before that video, then maybe traded a few messages by email or on social media. I felt like I knew him a little, but I definitely know him better now.

Same with the guys from Nodus, more or less. We met twice in Hong Kong, talked at the show, attended a couple dinners together, but I never had that 2nd or 3rd hour with them to get to know them better.

The call with Kyle Schut from Straton was really an eye-opener. We've traded a lot of messages online, and been friendly a while, but it became clear during our House Call that I really didn't know him that well at all, and I gained a new level of admiration for him.

My hope is that the series will be informative regarding what goes on behind the scenes within microbrands, but also give people insights into the personalities, character, and stories of the brands' founders.


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> No, there are no side-by-side pics, and there won't be any, unless/until someone gets an Amphion Dark Gilt and either a Carolina or Barracuda together in the same photo. I can't do it, because I sold my Amphion Dark Gilt, and I've shipped all the Barracudas to our retail partners.
> 
> The gilt bits on the new pieces don't look recessed, but only because the upper layer of black simply isn't thick enough to make it appear recessed.
> 
> ...


Well well, please allow me... with much thanks to fellow members who were willing to sell me their watches. Pardon the less-than-stellar pictures, I can hardly contain my excitement..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I was in Tourneau earlier today, looking at some Tudors, including the BB58.

Gilt-relief dial wins. Hands-down.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

If I can unload a few of my under-worn pieces I really think that Barracuda might be my next watch purchase. I have yet to see a bad picture of it. Every time I see it I think, "man, sweet watch!"


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

Playing with light.










Glowing bright.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Kind of a cool thing -

https://wristwatchreview.com/2019/03/28/microbrand-u-a-startup-school-for-wristwatch-brands/


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dupe post.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Kind of a cool thing -
> 
> https://wristwatchreview.com/2019/03/28/microbrand-u-a-startup-school-for-wristwatch-brands/


Yes, a very cool thing. Congratulations Professor Vail.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Yes, a very cool thing. Congratulations Professor Vail.


Because "Mister Professor Doc Vail" would just sound silly-redundant...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

tc3 said:


> View attachment 14015749


Dang it. Now there are three models in the spring batch I'd really like to try. Two comments:

1. Gilt relief Amphion, please.

2. Were it possible, I wonder what it would look like to have the date window framed in gold. Similar to how the Nodus Retrospect II has it framed by the lumed layer of the sandwich dial. Maybe with a white date wheel, it could approximate the look of having a (fat) 6 o'clock marker and still tell you the date.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Dang it. Now there are three models in the spring batch I'd really like to try. Two comments:
> 
> 1. Gilt relief Amphion, please.
> 
> 2. Were it possible, I wonder what it would look like to have the date window framed in gold. Similar to how the Nodus Retrospect II has it framed by the lumed layer of the sandwich dial. Maybe with a white date wheel, it could approximate the look of having a (fat) 6 o'clock marker and still tell you the date.


1. Maybe some day. Not today, or tomorrow. Probably not any time soon.

2. We're not changing the design, not even the date window or wheel.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


>


Very interesting video. Great insight into the micro brand business from another perspective. Looking forward to the next one.
*BIG PLUS* for me is now I know the correct pronunciation of Magrette, my lovely, each one looks the same Magrette :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Very interesting video. Great insight into the micro brand business from another perspective. Looking forward to the next one.
> *BIG PLUS* for me is now I know the correct pronunciation of Magrette, my lovely, each one looks the same Magrette :-!
> View attachment 14016227


I *think* it rhymes with spaghetti. I forget who told me that, but I remember whoever it was sounded quite certain about it, enough to convince me.

Don't ask me where the name comes from, since the dude who owns it is named McAsey.

I've had one of those weeks where people are causing me to question how I pronounce everything.

Is Zenith "zee-nith" or "zen-ith"?

Is Trieste "tree-est" or "try-est-ay"?

Is Longines "lahn-zheen" or "long-jeans"?

*True story* - the first time I saw Unitas, I pronounced it "ew-nit-TAHS". I figured, it's European, they'd make the pronunciation as complicated and frou-frou sounding as possible. I called it that for about a year, then, someone at a GTG said it was just "unite-us", like football great Johnny Unitas.

I felt like an idiot, and started pronouncing it "unite-us", from that point on.

Then, about a year ago, a master watchmaker, trained in Switzerland, with 30 years in the business, told me it was, in fact, "ew-nit-TAHS". But, I'd been saying it "unite-us" for so damned long, I couldn't break the habit for a long time, and every time I said it, we'd both wince in agony from the ear-pain.

I started out pronouncing Tissot as "tiss-oh", then somehow got to thinking it was "tee-soh" (very French sounding, rhymes with miso), and then I recently heard someone else pronounce it yet another way. I literally have no idea how it's pronounced now.

Is Rado "ray-doh" or "rah-doh"?

Is Mido "my-doh" or "mee-doh"?

Please don't tell me Certina is "certain-ah", because I've spent the last 6 years saying it "ser-TEEN-ah".


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Very interesting video about Nodus and how they clicked.. I have some plans with a buddy of mine whom also has started the friendship through music.. the difference is as what you mentioned... drummer and guitarist... let's see if I can keep the rhythm (drums)


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Going old school with my Orthos, I would love to see this style of dial in an NTH case 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I *think* it rhymes with spaghetti. I forget who told me that, but I remember whoever it was sounded quite certain about it, enough to convince me.
> 
> Don't ask me where the name comes from, since the dude who owns it is named McAsey.
> 
> ...


Right, it all depends if the name originally comes out of Swiss German or Swiss French.

Zenith is pronouced Zen-it, according to my watchmender wot is Swiss German.

Unitas is pronouced as you say, you-knee-tass.

Trieste is a port between Austria and Italy, so I'm going with Tree-est.

Longines is French, so Lon-jean (without the s, all of you at the back sit up).

Tissot is pronouced Tiss-oh, cos that's how my watchmender says it.

Certina is Cert-ee-nah.

Mido is My-dough.

Rado is Raah-dough.

Hope that helps.

Ric


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Is "Unitas" pronounced you-nee-tas or ooo-nee-tas?

Also, you didn't specify, how is 'ric' pronounced.


Edit:
More to the point, how the heck does one even pronounce "nth" or "lew & huey".


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ric Capucho said:


> Right, it all depends if the name originally comes out of Swiss German or Swiss French.
> 
> Zenith is pronouced Zen-it, according to my watchmender wot is Swiss German.
> 
> ...


Edit: I see the links with time pins didn't work, so I'm adding the time-stamps.

According to Mido's CEO, it's pronounced MEE-dough. (1:10)






Similarly, Tissot's CEO (and every ad of theirs I've ever seen) pronounces it TEE-so. (Also, if you wait for a shot of him during the interview, he's Schwarzkpofing it with a watch on each wrist :-!).

(3:07)





Rado's commercials pronounce it RAA-do (like RAD).

(1:25)





As for Zenith, having had a ZEE-nith TV when I was a kid, I just can't make my brain or tongue say ZEN-it!

(0:15)





And don't get me started on Jaeger Lecoultre

(1:09)


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Edit:
> More to the point, how the heck does one even pronounce "nth" or "lew & huey".


Personally, "N-T-H" and "Lou and Hewey." Although I understand it's probably supposed to be "huay"


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

JakeJD said:


> Personally, "N-T-H" and "Lou and Hewey." Although I understand it's probably supposed to be "huay"


I say "enth" in my head, and I do my watch nerding online, so no one makes fun of me (at least not for pronunciation).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> Right, it all depends if the name originally comes out of Swiss German or Swiss French.
> 
> Zenith is pronouced Zen-it, according to my watchmender wot is Swiss German.
> 
> ...


Go home, Ric, yer drunk.



X2-Elijah said:


> Is "Unitas" pronounced you-nee-tas or ooo-nee-tas?
> 
> Also, you didn't specify, how is 'ric' pronounced.
> 
> ...


It's you-nit-TAHS.

Ric rhymes with *hic!*, which, knowing he's usually drunk when he posts, ought to be easy enough to remember.



JakeJD said:


> Edit: I see the links with time pins didn't work, so I'm adding the time-stamps.
> 
> According to Mido's CEO, it's pronounced MEE-dough. (1:10)


Dammit!



JakeJD said:


> Similarly, Tissot's CEO (and every ad of theirs I've ever seen) pronounces it TEE-so. (Also, if you wait for a shot of him during the interview, he's Schwarzkpofing it with a watch on each wrist :-!).


I KNEW IT!



JakeJD said:


> Rado's commercials pronounce it RAA-do (like RAD).


Well, that's just stupid.



JakeJD said:


> As for Zenith, having had a ZEE-nith TV when I was a kid, I just can't make my brain or tongue say ZEN-it!


Preach, brother. It hurts my ears to hear an American pronounce it zen-ith. It's zee-nith, or GTFO.



JakeJD said:


> And don't get me started on Jaeger Lecoultre


Not even watching the video. I pronounce it zha-zher-le-cool-truh, and I ain't going back to saying it yay-grrr-le-cool-truh.



JakeJD said:


> Personally, "N-T-H" and "Lou and Hewey." Although I understand it's probably supposed to be "huay"


I say N-T-H, but enth wouldn't be incorrect.

I say lou-and-hewey, but hoo-ay would be truer to the pronunciation of the Chinese Mandarin phrase for reincarnation - luen huey, or "loo-en hoo-ay".

Fun Fact - "Acionna" can correctly be pronounced as ah-kee-oh-nah, ah-see-oh-nah, a-show-nah, or, and I swear this is true, ahs-thee-oww-nah.

I say it as ah-kee-oh-nah.

ETA?

I say "eh-tah", like the Greek letter. Blame my poor decision making as a young man, which led to my pledging a fraternity, first semester, freshman year.

I remember Ric (rhymes with *hic*) once tried to fool me into thinking it was ay-tuh, or some other such nonsense. Pull the other one, Ric.

I personally don't like when people pronounce it E-T-A, but I think that could arguably be the most correct pronunciation, as I believe I've read that ETA stands for Eterna-something-or-other (I couldn't find the other two words in two minutes of searching, so I gave up).

It's interesting to read the history, and see the names involved in all the mergers and consolidations, particularly Eterna and A.Schild, considering both Eterna and A.Schild are now separate movement manufacturers.

Reading that history, and the histories of some other companies, it's understandable why someone might call the heritage of some companies into question, inasmuch as the lines in many cases aren't exactly unbroken. How is it that Eterna and A.Schild are both independent of ETA now, when both were once absorbed into ETA?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA_SA#History

https://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=A._Schild


----------



## time-lord (Jun 29, 2016)

docvail said:


> For those who give a crap what I think -
> 
> https://www.wristwatchreview.com/2016/10/05/interview-with-a-watch-maker-chris-vail/


I had a chance to purchase one of your watches and did some research on them. One of the reviews I read had a link to this thread and even though it is already a few years old I thought I would respond. No one cares what you think "doc". You sell watches made from a parts catalog, have the designs changed just a bit and then sell them on the net or in a store or two. No different than a hundred other microbrands.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

time-lord said:


> I had a chance to purchase one of your watches and did some research on them. One of the reviews I read had a link to this thread and even though it is already a few years old I thought I would respond. No one cares what you think "doc". You sell watches made from a parts catalog, have the designs changed just a bit and then sell them on the net or in a store or two. No different than a hundred other microbrands.


Even less do we care what 'you' think, oh Lord of Time.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

time-lord said:


> I had a chance to purchase one of your watches and did some research on them. One of the reviews I read had a link to this thread and even though it is already a few years old I thought I would respond. No one cares what you think "doc". You sell watches made from a parts catalog, have the designs changed just a bit and then sell them on the net or in a store or two. No different than a hundred other microbrands.


Now that you've skewered me, I'll wait for you to eat me.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Edit: troll post reported. Let's not feed him any more goats.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

In the meantime, here's a watch made out of catalog parts


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

time-lord said:


> I had a chance to purchase one of your watches and did some research on them. One of the reviews I read had a link to this thread and even though it is already a few years old I thought I would respond. No one cares what you think "doc". You sell watches made from a parts catalog, have the designs changed just a bit and then sell them on the net or in a store or two. No different than a hundred other microbrands.


I see they still let the hopelessly uninformed post here...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> In the meantime, here's a watch made out of catalog parts
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What can I say?

We've got the best catalogs.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Toonces said:


> If I can unload a few of my under-worn pieces I really think that Barracuda might be my next watch purchase. I have yet to see a bad picture of it. Every time I see it I think, "man, sweet watch!"


That Gilt Barracuda looks sexy as hell. Funny thing about gilt is you really do not understand the shear beauty until you look at it in real life.

I actually can stand to look at gold jewellery. Something about the colour gold bugs the hell out of me. At a recent get together up here in Toronto I got a chance to see the Kingston in the flesh. I was stunned, I could not believe how incredible it looked. Then you learn about the process and the possible failure rate to produce these dials make them extra special.

I have a Carolina but if I did not, I would be all over that gilt Barracuda. If you have a chance to snag one do it because you will regret it if you ever see one in the wild. It makes it even more special that Doc had his sexy lil hands on it.

HAHAH I HAD TO GET WEIRD....


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

time-lord said:


> I had a chance to purchase one of your watches and did some research on them. One of the reviews I read had a link to this thread and even though it is already a few years old I thought I would respond. No one cares what you think "doc". You sell watches made from a parts catalog, have the designs changed just a bit and then sell them on the net or in a store or two. No different than a hundred other microbrands.


Oooh. Careful, don't fall onto that wicked sharp edge you got there, lord.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

One should desist, one knows.

ETA is Ay-tay-ahh.

Someone’ll be along any moment to say they saw a CEO on Japanese TV pronouncing it as eeee-tee-aaaaay. I’ll concede to anything these days.

NTH is pronounced UNNNNNGTH like someone with their tongue cut out.

And Vail calling *me* a drunk? Kettle, black, calling, pan. But one should fess I’m half way through my second glass of wine.

Ric


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> One should desist, one knows.
> 
> ETA is Ay-tay-ahh.
> 
> ...


I like to picture you stepping outside to piss off your porch, tripping, then rolling the entire way down the Swiss mountainside, into town, right through the door of the local pub, coming to an abrupt halt at the bar, brushing yourself off, and ordering one more for the trip back home, as if you'd planned the entire debacle to the last detail.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Ric Capucho said:


> NTH is pronounced UNNNNNGTH like someone with their tongue cut out.


Sounds about right.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> I like to picture you stepping outside to piss off your porch, tripping, then rolling the entire way down the Swiss mountainside, into town, right through the door of the local pub, coming to an abrupt halt at the bar, brushing yourself off, and ordering one more for the trip back home, as if you'd planned the entire debacle to the last detail.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


Reverse the sequence and you're spot on.

The rolling up hill part used to be tricky, but now we have an app for that: Uber.

Ric


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

docvail said:


> Not even watching the video. I pronounce it zha-zher-le-cool-truh, and I ain't going back to saying it yay-grrr-le-cool-truh.


I pronounce it jay-ell-see.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> What can I say?
> 
> We've got the best catalogs.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


Only topped by the Sears catalog of yesteryears.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JakeJD said:


> Edit: troll post reported. Let's not feed him any more goats.


Ya, the mods quickly closed the last attempt at this, as a new thread, while we were all having fun trolling the troll.

I know that we all as NTH fans and customers eye roll and just move on when this occasionally occurs; I hope Doc does too.

I just can't imagine Doc responding directly to the odd troll is worth his time at this stage of his business (that is, that a troll could have any measurable impact on NTH's reputation or sales).

(This isn't an invitation for a reply, Doc, as it would defeat the point that I'm trying to convey. I appreciate how you've always replied promptly to my other questions and contributions, though.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Ya, the mods quickly closed the last attempt at this, as a new thread, while we were all having fun trolling the troll.
> 
> I know that we all as NTH fans and customers eye roll and just move on when this occasionally occurs; I hope Doc does too.
> 
> ...


I'm on the phone trying to make vacation arrangements. I've got a few minutes to kill.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'm on the phone trying to make vacation arrangements. I've got a few minutes to kill.


Anywhere cool?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'm on the phone trying to make vacation arrangements. I've got a few minutes to kill.


OMG...this is torture.

Readers of my past years' travelogues may recall my parents are drunks who got drunk before going though a time-share tour, drunkenly bought a bazillion points with a time-share company, and been taking us on an agonizing vacation every year, along with my sisters, their idiot husbands, and rotten children.

Last year, we'd had enough of that, and decided this year, we'd go our own way, and plan our own trip, somewhere the rest of my family wouldn't be.

My parents, wanting to be helpful, said we could use some of their points for accommodations, but, my God, is this company's help the least helpful help I've ever received.

I've been on the phone for 40 minutes, and all I've accomplished is finding out how unhelpfully unhelpful they are.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Anywhere cool?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


England.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> England.


Oh no. Why? Are ya really that interested in fog and sheep?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

We're headed to England.

I'm still on the phone. It's taken me the last hour to book hotel rooms over the phone, rooms I'm certain I could have booked online in five minutes, and saved myself an hour of face-palm-worthy frustration. I could scream at the poor young lady I'm speaking to at this moment.

We'll be in the Southwest part of England (Devon, Cornwall, etc) from 16 to 19 June, then London from 19 June through 23/24 June. We might get up to Bristol, Bath and Cardiff sometime in that first half of the trip (16-19).

Page & Cooper is organizing some sort of "come and throw vegetables at the owner of NTH" party, which I assume will be somewhere near London on the 21st or 22nd, but as yet details aren't settled.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Well while you’re there remind the Empirical Tea-Baggers that the Colonists are still pissed at them.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> We're headed to England.
> 
> I'm still on the phone. It's taken me the last hour to book hotel rooms over the phone, rooms I'm certain I could have booked online in five minutes, and saved myself an hour of face-palm-worthy frustration. I could scream at the poor young lady I'm speaking to at this moment.
> 
> ...


Started to accrue veg ammo already, hope that you are partial to brussel Sprouts.........

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> Started to accrue veg ammo already, hope that you are partial to brussel Sprouts.........
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


As it happens, I loathe brussel sprouts.


----------



## Rocat (Sep 17, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I'm on the phone trying to make vacation arrangements. I've got a few minutes to kill.


Please! For all that's Holy and Just in this world, please create a thread about your vacation to England.

Your vacation threads in the past should have been published and sold as a book. lol


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm really looking forward to this trip. England's been on my bucket list for a long time, and it's been the largest market for my business, outside the USA. 

I figured out today that I've got over 300 customers there. Let's hope some can make it to the RottenVegetablePalooza.

I wish we had more time. 

Our original thinking was to do a tour of some cities on the European continent, then swing through London, but we realized that just wasn't feasible within our budget and the time we had available. 

Then, I was thinking, okay, we'll do a tour of the UK and Ireland. But nope, not really enough time for that.

Then, it was going to be London-Bristol/Bath/Cardiff-Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool-Glasgow/Edinburgh-York-back to London, but even that would have meant spending half our times on trains, literally an hour or three a day, every day.

So...we're settling for London and Devon/Cornwall, plus, if we can make it work, some time in Bristol-Bath-Cardiff. We'll see some of London, and also the "English countryside by the sea" type stuff.

I plan to be drunk for most of it anyway, so...it's all good.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Never know what you might find on display in your local watchmaker's case. How about a 1974 Rolex "Pepsi" GMT...for $600???
• • •
True Story - stopped into my local watchmaker's shop yesterday - Whittle's Watch Works - and got treated to a little wrist-candy, including the '74 Pepsi (purchased for $600, but 18 years ago), along with the Hamilton panda automatic chrono with Heuer Monaco micro-rotor, and the cherry on top - a gorgeous vintage Patek, all pieces purchased for a song, more than a decade ago.

The Patek and Rolex together are easily worth over $100k now.










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

^^What the hell happened to the spring bar on that Hamilton???

That Rolex is sexy as hell.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The hammy has 2 curved springbars; the bottom one is just pointing straight up towards the camera so you don't see the curve as easily.

Also, that old rolex... you mean he's _selling_ it for $600? If so, I might need to book some cross-atlantic there-and-back flight tickets asap...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Dark Gun bezels are rad.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> The hammy has 2 curved springbars; the bottom one is just pointing straight up towards the camera so you don't see the curve as easily.
> 
> Also, that old rolex... you mean he's _selling_ it for $600? If so, I might need to book some cross-atlantic there-and-back flight tickets asap...


Read the story again.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Hey Chris - Want to alert you to a situation I see that you may be in a unique position to take advantage of.

Hamilton recently released the Murph watch from the Interstellar movie and watching the youtube unboxing videos and reading the peanut gallery comments, there are several issues folks have with the Hamilton version of the Murph.

- The Murph is too big for many potential customers at 42mm and 52mm L2L.
- The H-10 lowbeat movement sucks bigtime.
- The price is too high at $995.

NTH could issue the perfect Murph with a sub case at 40mm, a 9015 movement and a $600 price tag by using the hands from the Bahia and the vintage lume from the Amphion and all you would need to do is a Murph Khaki dial and a black leather strap.

I would buy one and I suspect you could sell a boatload of them to this ready made market of guys who want a smaller Murph.

Just a thought. Check out the Murph videos


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Maybe. That same peanut gallery might go bananas over the concept of a field watch dial having a dive watch bezel (GASP!) though. There was already a lot of that nonsense on the catalina threads...


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Now you’ve done it... mother of a WOT being worked on right now.

Ric


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)




----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Maybe. That same peanut gallery might go bananas over the concept of a field watch dial having a dive watch bezel (GASP!) though. There was already a lot of that nonsense on the catalina threads...


The Catalina is the Only NTH with a 12H bezel, a fantastic oceangoing sailors watch


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Hey Chris - Want to alert you to a situation I see that you may be in a unique position to take advantage of.
> 
> Hamilton recently released the Murph watch from the Interstellar movie and watching the youtube unboxing videos and reading the peanut gallery comments, there are several issues folks have with the Hamilton version of the Murph.
> 
> ...


Cheers.

Not a fan of full number dials, generally.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> As it happens, I loathe brussel sprouts.


Mission accomplished.........

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> I'm really looking forward to this trip. England's been on my bucket list for a long time, and it's been the largest market for my business, outside the USA.
> 
> I figured out today that I've got over 300 customers there. Let's hope some can make it to the RottenVegetablePalooza.
> 
> ...


It's taken you 5 years, but you've finally accepted you want another piece of Brad.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bradjhomes said:


> It's taken you 5 years, but you've finally accepted you want another piece of Brad.


Oh, I accepted it right away.

It took me five years to recover from the last piece.


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Oh, I accepted it right away.
> 
> It took me five years to recover from the last piece.


Yeah. It'll linger like that.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bradjhomes said:


> Yeah. It'll linger like that.


Like the aroma of a smelly cheese.


----------



## Rocat (Sep 17, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'm really looking forward to this trip. England's been on my bucket list for a long time, and it's been the largest market for my business, outside the USA.
> 
> I figured out today that I've got over 300 customers there. Let's hope some can make it to the RottenVegetablePalooza.
> 
> ...


This alone will make for a more colorful thread once you start writing it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Changing topics...

Many of you know I'm a bit of a data-hound. I've come to believe data and the insights we can tease from the data are key to making better decisions.

I just saw that a friend posted this graphic to FB, and I thought it was interesting, as I have never seen such a clear indication of annual production volume for some of the big brands.









Coincidentally, when I visited Tourneau two days ago, I got to overhear as the salesperson rattled off some production numbers for the luxury brands they carry, and was astonished at how large some of the numbers were.

Within the comments of that post, someone linked to this ABTW post from this past December, which I'd not seen, but am now skimming for details - https://www.ablogtowatch.com/ablogt...ch-industrys-biggest-problems-in-2019-beyond/.

I'll spare you my complete summary. It has to do with stock analysts' assessment of the luxury watch industry, and - SURPRISE - they see overproduction as a major problem, albeit, they've got a different explanation than the one I've always assumed (over-production is really just the flip side of over-pricing).

But, I do want to call out this graphic, on page two of the article:









The gist here is that Morgan Stanley is suggesting a move away from the traditional through-retail-AD channels, towards more direct-to-consumer selling, using this as a hypothetical example. I had to read the actual report, to figure out where these numbers come from.

Some of their assumptions are hard to rationalize (like a 50% return rate, and a $250 cost of shipping a single unit), but there are two numbers which jump out at me as being very revelatory.

Remember - this is a report by stock analysts, using data from publicly available shareholders reports issued by publicly traded companies. While it's certainly POSSIBLE that some, even many of the numbers provided by those companies are fudged, there are serious risks and penalties in doing that.

And, further, there are TREMENDOUS risks in a stock analyst firm misrepresenting material facts. Morgan Stanley's analysts aren't going to just start making up numbers, even for a hypothetical scenario they put together as the basis for their industry reform recommendations. So I'm willing to accept that the numbers are somewhat "real", at least as far as Morgan Stanley can tell by way of their analysis, especially as they'd likely be able to tell if the numbers seemed at all fishy.

So..those two numbers - they're the top two of sales (10,000) and cost of goods sold (1650). In simplest terms, those are exactly what they sound like - the total amount of revenue from selling watches, and the total cost of producing the watches which were sold.

The ABTW article links to the report. The explanatory text is on page 14. This is a hypothetical scenario of one $10,000 watch produced for $1650. It's not clear to me whether or not that $10,000 is the initial retail price, or the ultimate sale price, after some retail discounting, or the "new" retail price after some wide-spread industry reform which leads to more sane initial prices, and an end to discounting.

But either way, those two numbers tell me a lot.

If you divide the sales of 10,000 by the COGS of 1650, you get ~6, or, in other words, we're being told these big brands are working on a 6x markup from costs to retail price - at least.

Whoa.

First, that would be a very nice markup from production cost to retail prices, in most industries involving manufactured goods, where 4x is more the norm. This would certainly still support my belief that they've been habitually over-pricing, especially with a higher-priced luxury good, where the dollar figures are high enough to possibly support thinner margins.

But, secondly, if you'd put a gun to my head and made me guess what their markups were, I'd have said 10x, at least, and maybe more, if you wanted to get specific, possibly as high as 20x for the best-known brands, like Rolex and Omega. I figured a steel Rolex Sub might cost $500 to produce, and should sell for $2k at a 4x markup, but at $10k, it was a 20x markup, hence, a big premium for the privilege of owning a "Rolex".

If Swatch and Richemont are indicative of the other luxury brands, and these numbers are to be believed, they've got bigger problems than I realized.

Here's why - even with rampant over-production and rampant discounting, a 10x-20x markup still leaves them with plenty of margin. These numbers make it seem like I've been dramatically under-estimating their production costs, which is entirely possible, as I've been working from my own as a starting point, and trying to add up the additional costs of going "Swiss Made", and things like in-house movements, etc.

Part of the problem here isn't simply over-pricing (using too large a markup multiple), but also that their costs are way too high, beyond even my understanding and ability to rationalize. It's hard to believe that the costs just are what they are, due to the higher cost of Swiss labor, given how much production is actually done outside Switzerland, or if it's inside Switzerland, using a good bit of immigrant labor from less-well-off parts of Europe, at lower wages.

I have to think that there's a good bit of fat they could trim form their COGS, and I wonder how much of that figure is just bloated overhead within their supply chain.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rocat said:


> Please! For all that's Holy and Just in this world, please create a thread about your vacation to England.
> 
> Your vacation threads in the past should have been published and sold as a book. lol


Gotta second this! I re-read your two China threads about a month ago, back to back, and laughed my ass off all over again. Absolutely classic!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Also, I reckon you already have a plan for everything you're going to do in London, but if not, TGV's video of the stuff he does when he goes to London is worth a view.

Edit: I think this is the one. Let's see if this works....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Also, I reckon you already have a plan for everything you're going to do in London, but if not, TGV's video of the stuff he does when he goes to London is worth a view.
> 
> Edit: I think this is the one. Let's see if this works....


No time for that. I've only got 2.5 months before my trip, and have to start brushing up on my English.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

make sure you wear flipflops, cargo shorts, oversized tshirt (red) and raybans.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Changing topics...
> 
> This is a hypothetical scenario of one $10,000 watch produced for $1650.
> 
> I have to think that there's a good bit of fat they could trim form their COGS, and I wonder how much of that figure is just bloated overhead within their supply chain.


Yeah that figure of $1650 is disturbing. It reminds me of the company Gymboree (everyday clothes for kids). They are filing bankruptcy and liquidating stock, but even at steep 70% discounts, their clothes are still priced higher than the regular price of comparative clothes at competitors, which makes me think they have a production/supply chain problem. I wonder what the actual cost of the physical watch is versus the remaining COGS.

How do AD costs figure into COGS?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## redhed18 (Mar 23, 2013)

Rocat said:


> This alone will make for a more colorful thread once you start writing it.


All posts during this time must be written in the Queen's English...

Do carry on.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> No time for that. I've only got 2.5 months before my trip, and have to start brushing up on my English.


Plus eating with your fork in the left hand, knife in the right.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

That markup is interesting. I kinda assumed that it was less, tbh. 6x already feels a lot (5x pure profit), 10x or 20x is just insane.

Iirc Christopher Ward like a year ago said they do a 3x markup on their watches (as stated here: https://www.christopherward.eu/why-cw)


> Honest Pricing, Fair Margins
> 
> Again, it's a simple philosophy that informs our approach to pricing our watches. Whatever the cost price of the watch, we multiply this by around 3 times and that is the selling price, including VAT. This gives us enough margin to make a fair profit after covering the running costs of the business. Every penny we have profited has been poured back into the business to help us continue towards our mission of making fine watches accessible to everyone.
> 
> ...


This also gives a hint how much of that is thanks to the AD's and how much, the brands themselves. Plus, that "7 to 10 times" matches pretty well with what Doc dug up wrt Rolex etc.

P.S. the swatch group's production numbers (annual!) are madness. Who's buying that many crappy tissots?!


----------



## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

redhed18 said:


> All posts during this time must be written in the Queen's English...
> 
> Do carry on.


Let's start with something easy, like making sure the silent U (eg. 'colour') is put back in its proper place. ;-)


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

RmacMD said:


> Plus eating with your fork in the left hand, knife in the right.


Is there another way?


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Cheers.
> 
> Not a fan of full number dials, generally.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


+1

I personally find full arabic numbers dull. Especially combined with a generic font on a black dial. For my first Vostok I went with urdu numbers. Used in India, Pakistan and is a form of "hindustani"

The numbers are filled with blue lume. hands have green lume.

I know, not the most legible boy but very refreshing to look at. He'll also get a gold plated bezel if I find someone doing this in Austria


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Pretty sure if Chris lived anywhere near me, he'd be on his way over to throat punch me.

NTH Cudamatic. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Pocket shot of the Orthos in the late afternoon sun.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Changing topics...
> 
> .
> 
> ...


Point of order: most smaller consumer electronics are 5x math, except audio speaker products which tend to be 4x.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Disneydave said:


> How do AD costs figure into COGS?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


They don't. Retail margin comes after cost of goods. What does it cost to produce something at the factory and get it on a boat? That's cogs fob. What's it cost to get it made and in a warehouse on your side of the ocean? Landed cost.

We're using 4x math (and so on) as shorthand here. That's back of napkin math. When you're actually doing this, you (well, I at least) have a cost calculator spreadsheet that lays out cost of goods fob (freight on board) or landed, what the retailer needs for margin, what they need for marketing dollars (want an end cap placement? Signage?), VAT (where required), any royalties, net net, distributor cost, and so on.

Basically, you don't get 4 or 5x to keep, you end up paying the distributor, freight, Vat, a rep firm, retailers... you may only make 25% of the retail price as your margin. Depending on the product.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Bradjhomes said:


> Is there another way?


I do find myself switching during fine dining in public.
He will also have to remember to LOOK RIGHT before crossing the street, at the Zebra of course.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RmacMD said:


> I do find myself switching during fine dining in public.
> He will also have to remember to LOOK RIGHT before crossing the street, at the Zebra of course.


England has zebras?

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh, what a Saturday.

My wife's car battery died last night, leaving her stranded at work. She didn't want to deal with it last night, so I picked her up and we went out to dinner. So, today, we drove over to see if we could jump the battery.

Nope, no luck. We just bought the car in December. It's 5-6 years old. I figured it's likely the original battery, and just due for replacement. So, I take her home, grab my tools, and head back to her work to take the battery out.

I pull up to her car - DAMMIT! - I realized I forgot her keys. Can't get into the car to open the hood. Gotta turn around, go back home, get the keys, then turn around again, and come back to take out the battery.

I got the wires off the battery, but then discovered my standard socket set couldn't reach the nuts on the bracket holding the battery in the car, because the manufacturer made the bolts two inches longer than they needed to be, and there was no room at all to get a regular wrench onto the nut and turn it.

I call my friend Sean, an auto mechanic, to ask if he's got an extended-length socket set. "Of course I do. What size do you need? Lemme guess - 10mm?"

The inside-joke here is that Sean, our mutual friend Darren, another friend of theirs, Dennis, and Dennis's brother Rich are all current or one-time mechanics. We're all in a never-ending group-chat on Facebook, and there was a recent gag, involving the apparently recurring phenomenon of needing a 10mm socket and never being able to find one.

So I have to drive over to the next town to get Sean's extra long 10mm socket, then back to get the battery out of the car (and, seriously, why don't they all come with handles? Goddamn those things are heavy), then to the auto-parts store to get a replacement battery (and an extended-length 10mm socket for my own collection of sparingly-used tools), then over to Sean's to give him back his socket, then back to drop the new battery into my wife's car, then back home for dinner.

I used half a tank of gas just putzing around trying to get my wife's car sorted today.

I just this second polished off my second vodka and tonic, so...I'm nearly back to normal.

Wall-o-text-multi-quote-reply coming right up...


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> England has zebras?
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


Queen's English Zeb-ras


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

docvail said:


> Ugh, what a Saturday.
> 
> My wife's car battery died last night, leaving her stranded at work. She didn't want to deal with last night, so I picked her up and we went out to dinner. So, today, we drove over to see if we could jump the battery.
> 
> ...


And that is why I keep a set of tools in my wife's car. Extended sockets and all.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> Ugh, what a Saturday.
> 
> My wife's car battery died last night, leaving her stranded at work. She didn't want to deal with last night, so I picked her up and we went out to dinner. So, today, we drove over to see if we could jump the battery.
> 
> ...


At least modern batteries are less likely to leave you with a bunch of holes in your clothes. Back in the day, when you had to top off car batteries with distilled water, anytime you handled one you were likely to contaminate your clothes. It didn't show until you put them through the wash, and then the fabric disappeared wherever the sulfuric acid touched. There was also that burning, itching sensation...

Here in sunny Silicon Valley, we get about 5 years out of a battery. The first time one struggles to start the car in the morning, it gets swapped out, and I write the date on it. I've trained the kids to let me know before they're stranded somewhere, after many adventures similar to yours above.

Speaking of zeb-ra crossings, there's Shriekback:


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



vmarks said:


> They don't. Retail margin comes after cost of goods. What does it cost to produce something at the factory and get it on a boat? That's cogs fob. What's it cost to get it made and in a warehouse on your side of the ocean? Landed cost.
> 
> We're using 4x math (and so on) as shorthand here. That's back of napkin math. When you're actually doing this, you (well, I at least) have a cost calculator spreadsheet that lays out cost of goods fob (freight on board) or landed, what the retailer needs for margin, what they need for marketing dollars (want an end cap placement? Signage?), VAT (where required), any royalties, net net, distributor cost, and so on.
> 
> Basically, you don't get 4 or 5x to keep, you end up paying the distributor, freight, Vat, a rep firm, retailers... you may only make 25% of the retail price as your margin. Depending on the product.


Thank you for the detailed explanation. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RmacMD said:


> Queen's English Zeb-ras


Or as ze Germans say " Ze Bra"...

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Disneydave said:


> *Yeah that figure of $1650 is disturbing.* It reminds me of the company Gymboree (everyday clothes for kids). They are filing bankruptcy and liquidating stock, but even at steep 70% discounts, their clothes are still priced higher than the regular price of comparative clothes at competitors, which makes me think they have a production/supply chain problem. *I wonder what the actual cost of the physical watch is versus the remaining COGS.
> 
> How do AD costs figure into COGS?*


It's disturbing to me simply for its size. I sell watches for $650. I struggle to figure out how a watch could have a production cost of $1650, even allowing for higher labor costs, higher materials costs, etc. Okay, if there's precious metals involved, that's one thing, but for a steel watch, it boggles the mind. Where is all that money going?

It's simply not all "Swiss" labor. Pull the other one. A lot of that labor happens in China, with the same costs I see. I know from other brands that some "Swiss" suppliers are just marking up the cost of goods produced in China, for the sake of calling them "Swiss", which is what I mean by unneeded fat in the supply chain. But, even still...you can BUY something like a Monta for $1500-$2000. Where the hell does $1650 in production costs go???

I wish I lived in Switzerland. Being a Swiss OEM has to be the cushiest gig in the world. Just get everything made in China, have it shipped to Switzerland, turn a few screws, apply the right markup to qualify as "Swiss Made", and call it a day.

I'd like to know if those numbers include some sort of amortized R&D costs. That would make it at least somewhat more understandable, in the case of in-house calibers and/or some technical innovations. I've never had to figure out, nor have I ever been made familiar with, the proper methodology for amortizing R&D costs, so I simply don't know if they might be included in that figure.

Reasonable people can argue over what ought to be included in COGS. I have an accountant to help me figure out my taxes, and make some minor corrections to my books when needed, but for the most part, I do my own bookkeeping, for now.

The "revenue" number in my books is NET of selling costs, the biggest being merchant processing fees charged by PayPal or credit card processors. Typical range is 2.5%-3%. I think that, technically, those sales costs really should be accounted for in some way, but generally, at least in my business, and likely most ecommerce businesses like mine, they're not, because they get charged before we receive any money.

There's nothing shady going on. If you pay $600 for a watch, and PayPal nets 2.5% as their fee, $585 hits my bank, and my books as sales revenue. If I marked the books as $600, then took out 2.5% ($15) for merchant processing fees as an expense, the end result is the same.

I could argue that the sales costs or COGS should also include expenses related to shipping goods from the factory to me, and possibly even costs associated with returns, but, generally, those costs are hitting the P&L (profit & loss statement) further down, where they get counted as operational costs.

My opinion is that most variable costs tied to the production, shipping, and sales of inventory should be at least CONSIDERED as components of COGS, even if the books don't reflect that total cost.

What I mean is, suppose I wire my factories $100,000 for the production of watches and boxes (two products, two factories), and I sell all those in the same year. On the books, my COGS is just that $100,000, but in my mind, the additional shipping and customs costs, at a minimum, should be included, or at least considered, when I set prices. Additionally, I might consider any additional QC costs, and my costs in preparing the inventory to ship to customers.

So, using that same example, let's say that in addition to the $100,000 I spent for watches and boxes, I've got $10,000 in costs of shipping, customs, QC, and shipping that inventory to our warehouse. Even if that $10,000 is counted as an expense elsewhere in the P&L, in my mind, it's part of COGS, and I consider it when setting prices. I add that 10% to my unit costs.

I tend to use "landed costs" when I think about it - that's the total production costs per unit, plus the cost of shipping and customs. I tend not to bother including my cost of final QC and preparing the inventory for shipping, nor do I think about returns costs or merchant processing fees.

The reason why is that I'd do QC on my own if I wasn't paying for it, and I'd be doing my own order fulfillment if I wasn't preparing the inventory to ship to our warehouse, and everyone has the same merchant fees, more or less, so I don't see the point in including any of those costs as part of my landed costs.

AD's don't figure into my COGS, at least not directly, because revenues from AD's are in the top line revenue.

What I mean is, if I sell 100 watches direct to consumers at $600 each, that's $60,000 of revenue. If I sell to an AD for 60% of that, then I've got $36,000 of revenue. My COGS is unchanged. All that's changed is my top-line revenue, which is less when I sell through AD's than it is when I sell direct. My costs are the same either way.



X2-Elijah said:


> That markup is interesting. I kinda assumed that it was less, tbh. 6x already feels a lot (5x pure profit), 10x or 20x is just insane.
> 
> Iirc Christopher Ward like a year ago said they do a 3x markup on their watches (as stated here: https://www.christopherward.eu/why-cw)
> 
> ...


I'd be wary of accepting any company's public disclosure of their markups and margins, until and unless they're publicly traded companies, and have to publish their financials in their reports to shareholders and the public. Until then, you simply don't know whether or not they're telling the truth.

I don't know, nor do I want to guess what is meant by "(5x pure profit)", but, in my experience at this end of the market, and in my opinion (which, at least as far as *MY* specific business goes, is "expert"), a 4x markup (give or take) from landed costs to retail price is reasonable and fair, depending on other variables. I'll get into why in a moment.

When I think about, or discuss pricing, I try to impress upon people that its as much art as it is science. You can't just put a 4x multiple on production costs and call it a day. It would be nice if we could. Time in business, reputation, strength of design, utility, uniqueness, and a lot of other factors play a part. I think of that 4x multiple as a starting point for consideration, a jumping-off point, from which, the retail sales price of a watch could be adjusted up or down, depending on various factors.

What I do NOT adjust for is the distribution model. This is an ongoing bone of contention between me and many of my peers, and not just those who are startups. The conventional wisdom is that "cutting out the middle man" by selling direct to the consumer means the multiples can be changed, and the margins shrunk.

Let me be crystal clear about this - the conventional wisdom is 100% WRONG.

There simply is no "cutting out the middle man", and people who buy into that are fools. It doesn't matter how many people or entities are involved in getting the product from the factory to the customer. It could be one person/entity or one hundred. All the same tasks need to be performed - and COMPENSATED. There's no additional costs to have a retailer involved, only an underpaid person and/or under-compensated (if not un-compensated) task involved when there's not enough markup being charged.

It doesn't change the price you pay if I design the watch myself, or pay Rusty and Aaron for their help. It's not costing you more for me to pay Aaron and Rusty. Having their help allows me to focus my attention elsewhere, and be more efficient. It's the same with the retailer. They're providing me - AND YOU - with a value-added service. If I had to provide you with that service, the price you pay shouldn't change.

As evidence - both my brands, Lew & Huey, and NTH, started out being 100% direct to consumer. Over time, I shifted more of my sales to retailers, and yet, the prices of the watches have never changed because of it. If anything, the VALUE of what you're getting has gone UP, despite there being more people involved. Just like Aaron and Rusty have improved our design function, the retail partners have improved our sales function, and help deliver a higher overall value, at the same price I'd charge if I had to do everything myself.



vmarks said:


> Point of order: most smaller consumer electronics are 5x math, except audio speaker products which tend to be 4x.


Perhaps I should have done more to qualify the statements I made in my earlier post.

True, the markups from production cost to retail price can vary by industry, and even within an industry, depending on price range and other factors. My point was just that, generally speaking, there are certain markups/margins businesses need to maintain in order to remain viable.

Potentially, a business can work off a thinner margin if the prices or volume are higher, but the bottom line is that every industry tends to find its own natural "homeostasis" - that equilibrium point where markups need to be in order for the businesses within that industry to remain minimally sustainable.

I'm sure I've alluded to this previously, here or elsewhere, but I'll reiterate it again now - whenever any company is charging an excessive markup, it is INEVITABLE that competitors will see that, and begin under-cutting that company.

That, right there, is the essence of why homages exist. Everyone intuitively realizes that luxury brands are charging an enormous, largely un-earned premium for their products. OF COURSE competitors are going to imitate those products and sell them for less. This is why I view so much of the Swiss industry's anti-fakes campaign as being disingenuous, by putting the onus on consumers, rather than acknowledging the underlying root cause of the production of fakes - the luxury brands themselves creating so much value in intangibles like "brand".

Competition keeps companies "honest" with their pricing, to some extent. When someone says I'm over-charging with NTH, I point to the fact that we're sold out, and the fact that those competitors who offer something similar at a lower price struggle to offer the same value, at that lower price, and grow their businesses.

As much as I've spoken about this stuff publicly, I've thought about it A LOT more. I'm 100% convinced I'm right when it comes to the multiples brands like mine need to work on in order to survive. I know that a lot of my competitors are flailing because they're straying too far away from the ideal markup, either on the low side or the high side.



vmarks said:


> They don't. Retail margin comes after cost of goods. What does it cost to produce something at the factory and get it on a boat? That's cogs fob. What's it cost to get it made and in a warehouse on your side of the ocean? Landed cost.
> 
> We're using 4x math (and so on) as shorthand here. That's back of napkin math. When you're actually doing this, you (well, I at least) have a cost calculator spreadsheet that lays out cost of goods fob (freight on board) or landed, what the retailer needs for margin, what they need for marketing dollars (want an end cap placement? Signage?), VAT (where required), any royalties, net net, distributor cost, and so on.
> 
> Basically, *you don't get 4 or 5x to keep*, you end up paying the distributor, freight, Vat, a rep firm, retailers... you may only make 25% of the retail price as your margin. Depending on the product.


Some of that is more complicated than what I do, but for the most part, I agree, and that part in bold is the salient point here.

If the markup from cost to retail price is 4x, that could be the retail price I charge, or the retail price my retailer charges. It doesn't matter, because it's the same 4x from cost to retail - the price the customer ultimately pays, no matter who's being handed the money. The only difference is the way that 4x is split between me and the retailer, or if there is no retailer, then it's just me.

It may sound like a lot, but, it's not. Like I said above, the are certain tasks which need to be completed in the course of getting a product made and into the hands of a customer, and all those tasks need to be compensated. Any task which goes un- or under-compensated eventually won't be done, or won't be done well.

When you read about brands that don't offer good pre- or post-sale support, don't answer emails, don't stand behind the product, can't turn a warranty repair around in less than 6 months, are doing generic designs, can't finance their own production costs, the owner still works another full-time job, the website sucks, the images suck, etc, etc, etc - those are all signs of a company struggling to survive on too small a markup.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Fair pts. 

For whatever it's worth, I prefer being able to buy nth (etc.) watches from an in-europe AD; it makes everything relating to resolving shipping issues and so on much simpler; and (at least with SW) the communication & handling is typically better and faster. From the customer side, it is indeed added value.

Not added-enough to justify an outright higher price - the internet is still the internet, and if the math worked out cheaper, I'd still order direct from nth whilst grumbling about slowness of usps and customs delays & duties. It woul just make the overall experience a lot less positive.

I guess a lot of the "big" brands who think of cutting out ADs and moving into direct-sales only, and raising margins up on that, are looking at it very optimistically - they probably assume that they will be able to retain as many sales numbers as they have now through all those ADs. Whithout reworking their entire advertising processes, imo that is unlikely. Then again... idk, the big ADs who carry the big brands, do they actually do any promotions or brand-boosting activities outside of under-the-table-discounting?


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> England has zebras?
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


Nope, the hyenas ate them all years ago.

Ric


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Fair pts.
> 
> For whatever it's worth, I prefer being able to buy nth (etc.) watches from an in-europe AD; it makes everything relating to resolving shipping issues and so on much simpler; and (at least with SW) the communication & handling is typically better and faster. From the customer side, it is indeed added value.
> 
> ...


Here's how I look at it all, and how I think everyone ought to look at it.

Right now, there are "factory owned brands" - brands based in China or Hong Kong, which are making watches, and selling them direct to the public, at obscenely low prices. I'm not just talking about the stuff you get on Tabao or AliExpress, or Parnis, either.

I'm talking about factories which might otherwise be supplying a brand like mine, but instead are bypassing the brands and selling direct to the consumer. There are a couple of factories, in particular, that I'm thinking about, at least one of which is using the tooling a microbrand paid for.

What kind of box do you get with those watches? What sort of pre- and post-sale support do you get? How's the experience of buying from those companies, generally? How's their English? Is their website a fount of product info, brand info, etc? Does their site automatically give you prices in your local currency? Is it automatically translated into your local language? Do they have a rewards program? How's the resale on those brands?

How's the photography? Are you generally getting really outstanding designs? How long does it take them to ship, send you tracking info, and respond if there's a problem? Where do you send the watch back to if there is a problem? Do they do a good job with QC? How do they handle problems?

You see where I'm going with this.

That factory, which might otherwise be selling 500 watches at a time to me - THAT'S what their business is set up to do, i.e, sell 500 watches at a time, to guys like me. They're not really set up to provide all the additional value to the customer who just wants to buy ONE watch.

Their service probably sucks, overall, especially if you actually have to use it, as opposed to just going to their site, buying the watch, waiting to get it, and not needing to return it. In that scenario, maybe you're happy, and if so, awesome, you're no longer my customer. God help you if you need REAL support beyond the basic transaction.

But, if you want all the little extras - good design, good pre- and post-sale support, the engagement with the brand owner, the IG profile, the social approval, the 2 year warranty, the 1-day turnaround on repairs, the same-day shipping, same-day email response, etc, etc, etc, well, you only get that from me, or guys who run their business the way I run mine.

I get emails from people asking if I've got phone support. Hell no, I don't have phone support. I can't afford to risk getting stuck on the phone with some chatty Cathy who wants to talk watches with me all day. I don't want people having my number on caller ID. But, most, if not all of my retailers offer phone support.

People want to know if they can come see the watches, like, will I tell them how to get to my house. Uhm, no, I don't want people showing up on my doorstep. That's why I use a PO box for my business address. But, some of my retailers do have showrooms, or at least, they'll let you come to their office to look at watches before you buy.

The retailers add value, not just for you, but also for me. They buy my inventory in bulk, which smooths out and speeds up my cash flow. They amplify the promotion my team is doing. They provide aggregated customer feedback, and valuable market / competitive intelligence. They lower my risk, make me smarter about many things, and introduce my brand to new customers.

I got to a point in my business where I realized that I simply could not grow the business any more doing all the work of a manufacturer and all the work of a retailer, which is what a brand that sells direct to a customer is doing - both sets of tasks. I had to choose one set to focus on. I chose to focus on product manufacturing, and let my retailers provide you with the services of a retailer. The fact is - they're better at it than I am.

John Keil or Jonathan Bordell will get on the phone and talk watches with you. I don't even want to talk to my closest friends on the phone. I freaking hate the phone. I lose patience after two minutes talking to anyone. They'll both sit and show you watches all afternoon, and offer you coffee or tea. I get annoyed when a member of my family comes into my office, and God help the boy who asks me what's for lunch.

The only way the direct-to-consumer thing works is if the retail prices are effectively unchanged, AND the company doing the selling builds out the capacity to effectively do it. If they don't have the proper mechanisms in place, they'll fail. They'd be better off keeping their AD network, albeit, they'd be wise to realize it's a digital world with fast shipping, so they don't need nearly as many AD's as they all seem to have. Having all those AD's is part of the problem, as it sets them all against each other.

The unspoken dark cloud surrounding Morgan Stanley's silver lining is this - the only way their recommendation works to the brands' benefit is if the brands are willing to put their AD's out of business, by replacing their AD's, and, that really doesn't solve the underlying problem the industry has, if the numbers don't change. I think the hypothetical they gave is just way too optimistic.

I'm not saying the number-crunchers over at Morgan aren't bright. I'm sure they're bright enough, but that sort of MBA-consultant type of solution ignores reality. They don't really understand this business, or this market, at all, and so they're really not all that qualified to diagnose what's wrong and offer a prescription.

It looks to me like the big brands have a ton of wasted costs in their COGS. like, 70% to 90% of their costs are pure bloat, and it seems they're largely unaware of it. Those costs, combined with their inflated sense of brand-importance, are driving prices too high, and effectively shrinking the market for those goods. The only real solution is to bring costs and prices down, at a minimum, and maybe they'd still need to lower their production volume at that point.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

This is what it's all about people...


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Interesting analysis, as always, Chris.

Luxury industries tend to invite bloat. You'd laugh so much you'd cry if you'd ever heard what some prominent fashion houses thought qualified as belt-tightening.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Interesting analysis, as always, Chris.
> 
> Luxury industries tend to invite bloat. You'd laugh so much you'd cry if you'd ever heard what some prominent fashion houses thought qualified as belt-tightening.


Back when I was an insurance wholesaler, I'd sometimes have to do speaking events with someone from our company's retirement plans division. They always sent the same guy. He was tall, and looked good in a suit, but Americans loved listening to him because of his charming Australian accent.

I must have done half a dozen events with this guy, so I knew his shtick. He said the same thing at every event.

One of the things he said, which always stuck with me, was, "A rising tide lifts all ships, but when the tide goes out, you see who's been swimming naked."

It always got a laugh.

I'm reminded of it now, because I'm sure I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear about bonehead decision making within prominent fashion houses. I'm sure a lot are swimming naked.

I mean...do you even know me at all? Have I not made my utter contempt for how most companies are run abundantly clear already? I don't just mean WATCH companies. I worked for a dozen companies before starting my business. I hated most of them, because of all the bad decision-making I saw, and how the promotion-by-attrition perpetuated the worst traits of so many of those companies.

My dad once asked me how things were going, career-wise. I remember being at an emotional low-point, just completely disgusted. I said almost every company I'd ever worked for, almost every manager I'd ever had, almost every job I'd ever interviewed for - they were all crap, and if I were running things, I could do better.

He cautioned me against being too arrogant, but...that's what fathers do.

Look at me now. I'm running things. My business is like a well-oiled machine. It's the AK-47 of small businesses (feel free to insert your preferred metaphor, using anything known for being insanely reliable, even under the worst conditions). "Hoping for the best"? That's rookie, son. If you bring a fishing pole, bring a camera, too. Plan for success.

I'm sure I'd laugh. I already do laugh. Every day. I laugh hard, like the Predator, the sound of it echoing through the jungle, because just like the Predator, I'm blowing up.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I tried a few of the nth subs yesterday at watch wonderland @ singapore, I have to say it wears smaller than the pictures. And I just want to say thank you for making a sub at this size and height. It is one of a kind, fits like a glove and the weight to size ratio is perfect. Most often other subs I tried have the issue that it's always top heavy. Unfortunately they dont have the models I want so I have to wait for the next batch of barracuda and nacken. I just want to thank you for making a sub of this size. 

However, I think the height of the watch and wearability will improve further with a supercase. Any chance in the future you are looking at it?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> I tried a few of the nth subs yesterday at watch wonderland @ singapore, I have to say it wears smaller than the pictures. And I just want to say thank you for making a sub at this size and height. It is one of a kind, fits like a glove and the weight to size ratio is perfect. Most often other subs I tried have the issue that it's always top heavy. Unfortunately they dont have the models I want so I have to wait for the next batch of barracuda and nacken. I just want to thank you for making a sub of this size.
> 
> However, I think the height of the watch and wearability will improve further with a supercase. Any chance in the future you are looking at it?


Cheers for the kind words.

Don't know what you mean by "supercase". Don't tell Rusty the case isn't already super.

Whatever it is, if it's not a larger version, the odds are that we are not looking at it.

As for Watch Wonderland - I hope you made your desires clear to them.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> Cheers for the kind words.
> 
> Don't know what you mean by "supercase". Don't tell Rusty the case isn't already super.
> 
> ...


Same diameter, wears larger as the lugs are wider, aka maxi lugs. Understood that you may not look at it, as it not actually vintage but more modern. NTH case is already super.
I did tell them about the desire for barracuda and nacken however they mentioned that you guys are not making anymore or they are not getting anymore, so you might want to check with them on this as your newsletter has them linked to it (broken url).


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I do manufacturing for a small publisher and some of this may apply, much may not. 

For new books, we look for a retail price at 5x unit cost. Unit cost is made up of some fixed costs--prepress work including editorial and design, printing setup costs--and some variable costs, like paper and press time. 

For straight reprints without prepress costs involved, 10x ppb (paper, print, bind). 

When we get to inventorial COGS, we also add in a chunk of overhead, which includes operational costs and other expenses. 

On the trade book publishing end, there's also author royalties to consider, but I don't know of an equivalent in the watch world--maybe licensing a design or character, like Mickey or Snoopy?

In any case COGS may include expenses you don't. Different companies account for COGS different ways, and based on the summary descriptions, I wonder if the bigger companies include overhead expenses in their COGS that NTH doesn't.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> Same diameter, wears larger as the lugs are wider, aka maxi lugs. Understood that you may not look at it, as it not actually vintage but more modern. NTH case is already super.
> I did tell them about the desire for barracuda and nacken however they mentioned that you guys are not making anymore or they are not getting anymore, so you might want to check with them on this as your newsletter has them linked to it (broken url).


If I understand you correctly, a "supercase", as you call it, would be the same case, but with wider lugs?

That's a new term to me. If I understand you correctly, we're definitely not thinking about it, and it doesn't sound like something we'd do, in the ordinary course of business, as lug width is generally 1/2 of diameter, and that ratio generally seems to give a watch the most appealing proportions, at least for watches with round cases. I think wider lugs would make more sense with square and cushion cases.

I have been speaking to Watch Wonderland recently, but your report is helpful, so thanks for that.

We are in fact making more of the Barracudas - all three colorways (Blue, Brown, and Vintage Black), and 4 of the 6 Nacken Models - the Modern Blue, Modern Black, Vintage Blue, and Renegade. We'll likely make more of the Vintage White at some point later this year or early next.

If Watch Wonderland decides not to stock them for some reason, you can order from one of our other retailers, or the NTH website. TheWatchdrobe in Hong Kong is ordering some, as are all the other retailers.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> If I understand you correctly, a "supercase", as you call it, would be the same case, but with wider lugs?
> 
> That's a new term to me. If I understand you correctly, we're definitely not thinking about it, and it doesn't sound like something we'd do, in the ordinary course of business, as lug width is generally 1/2 of diameter, and that ratio generally seems to give a watch the most appealing proportions, at least for watches with round cases. I think wider lugs would make more sense with square and cushion cases.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Doc. I am aiming for one barracuda vintage and one nacken modern blue. These will be my grails. The Watchdrobe indeed is my second choice if Watch Wonderland doesn't stock them.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Was the Nacken Vintage Blue ever offered with date? Noticed today it isn't shown as an option. Looks good without. Just curious if date was ever an option on that model.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I do manufacturing for a small publisher and some of this may apply, much may not.
> 
> For new books, we look for a retail price at 5x unit cost. Unit cost is made up of some fixed costs--prepress work including editorial and design, printing setup costs--and some variable costs, like paper and press time.
> 
> ...


Perhaps, but...COGS are variable costs, for certain. With manufactured goods, overhead costs of the business shouldn't be in there, they should be separate line items, further down the expense sheet. If I or another company wants to add in some ancillary costs which can be directly tied to the sale of inventory, yeah, that can make sense, within reason, but they have to be somewhat alike when compared to production costs.

What I mean is - cost of the watch + box + shipping all here + customs? Sure. so far so good.

Sales costs, like merchant processing fees? Not exactly accurate, technically (I don't think, any accountants here, please correct me if I'm wrong), to include them in COGS, but understandable, inasmuch as the expense is recorded at the time of the inventory's sale, just like the production costs.

Cost of QC, cost of shipping the inventory to my warehouse for individual shipping? Yeah, again, I can see that, so long as those costs are only recorded as expenses when the inventory is sold, not when the cash is laid out. Again, not technically correct, maybe, but understandable.

Bank fees when I wire funds to my factories? I mean - I pay $40 for an international wire transfer. What difference does it make where I put that on the P&L?

R&D, or tooling costs, or what I pay Rusty and Aaron to do design? Mmmmmnnnoo, I don't think so. Those costs are like software development costs. It contributes to the cost of the product being sold, but it cant really be broken down and evenly applied to every unit, when you don't know how many units to apply it to in advance, and those costs are incurred regardless of how many units get sold, or when they get sold.

Those really need to NOT be included in COGS. I think tooling costs might even be left off the P&L entirely, and put somewhere on the balance sheet, if we're actually creating tooling that we'd "own". Accounting standards require R&D to be listed as expenses, as incurred, so they definitely should not be included.

If you go back and look at the Morgan Stanley hypothetical, that graphic lists other costs, in big groupings - personnal [sic - that MUST mean "personnel"], rental (office space, I guess?), advertising, and the big catch-all, SG&A ("selling, general, and administrative"). There really isn't anything else that wouldn't fall under one of those headings.

Nope, the more I think about this, the more convinced I become that their supply chains are just too bloated, like a first semester fraternity pledge.

Understand, even if the costs are higher for "Swiss" labor, that only gets you so far. How can brands like mine order ETA 2842-2's in bulk for ~$100 if Swiss people are assembling them in Switzerland, at some enormous multiple to labor costs somewhere else? Why don't they cost $500, if the labor costs are just that high?

That's the most expensive component, and that's the cost for guys like me. Swatch Group brands are no doubt buying at a lower cost. Even for the higher-end movements, it doesn't make sense. Swatch's in-house co-axial movement is 15x more expensive for them to buy internally than the 2824-2 is for me to buy externally? Really? That's crazy.

The rest of the components? I mean, I know most of those components are being made outside Europe, and even for the highest quality - it just doesn't cost that much. Dials don't go from being a $10 component to being a $200 component. There's no way.

The only thing that makes any sense to me at all is this - and I can't believe I'm about to say this - they need to cut out the middle man.

Before you all fall over laughing, I'm not talking about retailers. I'm talking about people I think exist within their supply chains, getting paid to pass paper between company A and company B, and add their own markup in the middle, but don't actually do anything, or add any value.

I have an OEM. They're responsible for sourcing all the components, which they do, directly from the individual component suppliers. I'm totally fine paying them to do that. But imagine if they weren't doing it. Imagine it they were just calling another guy, who knows a guy, who knows a guy, and every guy added 20% for himself.

It's not far-fetched. Without naming names, I've had people with more industry experience than I have allude to the practice of Swiss suppliers buying in components, parts their customers thought that they were making "in house", but really were just marked up from somewhere else. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but I saw an amazing example of that, just recently, on this very forum.

Looking more closely at the Morgan Stanley hypothetical - the gain in profits isn't just from taking the margin away from retailers. They're showing some $1100 in savings on overhead costs.

Sure, cut advertising, what they're doing isn't working anyway. But I don't know how they think their personnel and SG&A costs are going to go DOWN if they take on the added functions the retailers were performing. That's not going to happen, unless, of course, they've got A LOT of people on payroll who are just dead weight.

But, riddle me this - if your company already has a ton of dead weight, and your plan for success involves cutting those people, and either getting the ones left to do MORE, or hiring more people to replace the ones you got rid of, uhm...what makes you certain you know which people are dead weight, and who to keep? What makes you think you can get the people you keep to do more than they're used to doing now, when they're surrounded by dead weight, or that the people you bring in to replace the dead weight won't be just as useless?

I'm not saying dead weight doesn't exist in their organizations. It absolutely does. But they're not going to solve their problems with new people. The entire industry is already a carousel of people that never stops. They need to fix the top line stuff - the prices, and their COGS.

The guys at Morgan Stanley would understand all those expenses, like personnel and advertising. They know what the overhead for an office is. They don't know what production costs are, or what they should be, so they don't realize how insane that COGS number is.

Seriously, put me in charge of the big brands for a decade. Industry dictator. Heads will roll, but ten years later, all these brands will be hopping and popping like a kid whose mom just walked in on him with a skin mag and a bottle of moisturizer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Was the Nacken Vintage Blue ever offered with date? Noticed today it isn't shown as an option. Looks good without. Just curious if date was ever an option on that model.


It was never an option, and I don't have plans to make it one.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

FWIW, the handful of times I've gone, my experience has been that the Watch Wonderland gang aren't the most talkative group out of the gate. However, they are helpful and knowledgeable and did talk up NTH to me when I was looking at the Bahia there a few weeks ago.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Disneydave said:


> FWIW, the handful of times I've gone, my experience has been that the Watch Wonderland gang aren't the most talkative group out of the gate. However, they are helpful and knowledgeable and did talk up NTH to me when I was looking at the Bahia there a few weeks ago.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Same experience with me. It's a 50/50, I've had worse experience with another shop across the main-road. It felt like the person's body language is "leave me alone".


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

liquidtension said:


> It felt like the person's body language is "leave me alone".


If/when I get that feeling in a store, I give them just what they want. Permanently.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> FWIW, the handful of times I've gone, my experience has been that the Watch Wonderland gang aren't the most talkative group out of the gate. However, they are helpful and knowledgeable and did talk up NTH to me when I was looking at the Bahia there a few weeks ago.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk





liquidtension said:


> Same experience with me. It's a 50/50, I've had worse experience with another shop across the main-road. It felt like the person's body language is "leave me alone".


Good to know. Thank you both for these insights.

I've been told their focus is more on the in-store experience than online. One would think that the people in the store would create a welcoming, enjoyable shopping experience.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> But, riddle me this - if your company already has a ton of dead weight, and your plan for success involves cutting those people, and either getting the ones left to do MORE, or hiring more people to replace the ones you got rid of, uhm...what makes you certain you know which people are dead weight, and who to keep? What makes you think you can get the people you keep to do more than they're used to doing now, when they're surrounded by dead weight, or that the people you bring in to replace the dead weight won't be just as useless?


This is always the problem with top-down cleanups.

It's very hard for the folks at the top to get true visibility into the intricate workings of even modestly sized operations--for a variety of reasons, but, broadly speaking, folks at the top are executives, and, generally, executives like to behave like executives and do executive things, which means that they rarely interact with lower tiers of the organization directly, which means that they're dependent on subordinates to actually make the directives happen. Subordinates will always prioritize their own survival, and, particularly if they haven't been brought in from the outside, thaey are often complicit in the organizational "inefficiencies" (and, even if they have been brought in from the outside, they often construct new inefficiencies in an effort to make themselves look "essential" to an organization).

To do a really thorough and successful organizational cleanup requires a lot of patience, a lot of careful inquiry, and a willingness to dive straight in to the day-to-day operation of a business. You can't truly evaluate how a business is working just by attending frequent boardroom meetings with leadership teams.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> This is always the problem with top-down cleanups.
> 
> It's very hard for the folks at the top to get true visibility into the intricate workings of even modestly sized operations--for a variety of reasons, but, broadly speaking, folks at the top are executives, and, generally, executives like to behave like executives and do executive things, which means that they rarely interact with lower tiers of the organization directly, which means that they're dependent on subordinates to actually make the directives happen. Subordinates will always prioritize their own survival, and, particularly if they haven't been brought in from the outside, thaey are often complicit in the organizational "inefficiencies" (and, even if they have been brought in from the outside, they often construct new inefficiencies in an effort to make themselves look "essential" to an organization).
> 
> To do a really thorough and successful organizational cleanup requires a lot of patience, a lot of careful inquiry, and a willingness to dive straight in to the day-to-day operation of a business. You can't truly evaluate how a business is working just by attending frequent boardroom meetings with leadership teams.


Indeed.

The last software company I worked for, the executive leadership team was completely detached from the ground-level reality. We had a team of outside consultants brought in to help fix some of the big underlying problems in the company's products, and I got kind of friendly with one of them.

One day she came into my office, just to rant about how effed-up the whole system was, all "flat file based" (think 2D spreadsheet, when you need 3 or more dimensions of data indexing), like it was built by idiots. They were putting band-aids on amputees. The whole system could collapse at any time, and be down for days.

Meanwhile, all the top execs were strutting around like peacocks, and making plans for new add-ons / extensions, telling investors the system was near-infinitely scalable, and selling vaporware (programs which didn't yet exist).

I haven't said this in a while, but as we're sitting here talking about what could be done to fix the industry, I'm thinking of it again...a big part of what's killing the Swiss watchmaking industry is the very thing they've been propped up by - the "Swiss Made" rules.

That trademark is increasingly meaningless as product quality becomes increasingly equalized regardless of the presence or absence of the label. And yet, that label adds needless cost, to whatever extent the product is required to have some "touch" happen in Switzerland, in order to bear the mark.

If they did put me in charge of the industry, I'd change the rules to make them more like the USA's "made in" labeling laws, requiring all or virtually all of the product to be made there in order to bear the mark. Assuming that would prevent all but the most expensive pieces from bearing the mark, the rest could drop it completely, and restructure their operations and focus to be more like mine and other micros', with a commensurate drop in costs.

They wouldn't just be ABLE to compete on a level playing field, they'd be FORCED to, which would force them to focus on all the things micros do, in order to please customers. Quality for the price would actually get better.

I'd also force a breakup of Swatch group, separating the retail brands from the manufacturing concerns of ETA and Nivarox. Then I'd force a roll-up of a lot of the other manufacturers, cobbling together a combined entity which could be a viable alternative to ETA. Having multiple good choices would help keep ETA from being a total monopoly.

I'd also funnel more R&D investment towards silicon hairspring technology, in order to lower the industry's reliance on Nivarox, and create incentives for companies to develop patent-worthy innovations.

I'd try to get the big brands and manufacturers to contribute resources towards shared R&D labs, like cooperatives, where all the brands and manufacturers involved would benefit from the results. There's room for cooperation on the production side of the business.

Lastly, I'd reform the AD system, with a focus on developing more nimbleness within the retail distribution channel. I'd create incentives for AD's to do business online, host in-store events, do pre-orders, and participate in regional/seasonal pop-up markets.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

And then, as if on cue, one of my retailers emails me this...

https://www.watchpro.com/baselworld-owners-share-price-hits-18-year-low/

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Every 30,000 words you need to insert a watch picture.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Good idea!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

@cmford might have posted these here already, but if not..


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Last time I included a bunch of photos in a single post I got some negative feedback about page loading or something. So thanks for doing that - now you can handle the complaints!!


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Still pressing on F5... constantly.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Good to know. Thank you both for these insights.
> 
> I've been told their focus is more on the in-store experience than online. One would think that the people in the store would create a welcoming, enjoyable shopping experience.


Yeah, I don't feel unwelcome, but it's not the doting crowd - which works for me - I like WW. To be fair, the store is laid out like a car show experience - very focused on independent browsing (i.e. no "behind the counter" areas, everything is displayed well and easy to see 240 to 360 degrees, etc). It doesn't beg for interaction with a person. If you have any specific questions you'd want answered, just lemme know. Happy to provide market feedback.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Disneydave said:


> Yeah, I don't feel unwelcome, but it's not the doting crowd - which works for me - I like WW. To be fair, the store is laid out like a car show experience - very focused on independent browsing (i.e. no "behind the counter" areas, everything is displayed well and easy to see 240 to 360 degrees, etc). It doesn't beg for interaction with a person. If you have any specific questions you'd want answered, just lemme know. Happy to provide market feedback.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Well.. he did entice me with a Waldhoff tourbillion when I wasn't even looking for it and I almost bought it. I don't know what's is his name but his passion is there.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Look at that hands... such beauty...


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ Oooooh....that's nice. Man alive, there are so many NTH subs in the lineup I like, I keep forgetting which one is my favorite. I thought it was the Barracuda, but hot damn that Skipjack speaks to me too...

The only solution is probably to get both. I don't know how to decide.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Toonces said:


> ^ Oooooh....that's nice. Man alive, there are so many NTH subs in the lineup I like, I keep forgetting which one is my favorite. I thought it was the Barracuda, but hot damn that Skipjack speaks to me too...
> 
> The only solution is probably to get both. I don't know how to decide.


Barracuda is still in my wishlist... pending stocks. Answer is get both!


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Part of the problem here isn't simply over-pricing (using too large a markup multiple), but also that their costs are way too high, beyond even my understanding and ability to rationalize. It's hard to believe that the costs just are what they are, due to the higher cost of Swiss labor, given how much production is actually done outside Switzerland, or if it's inside Switzerland, using a good bit of immigrant labor from less-well-off parts of Europe, at lower wages.
> 
> I have to think that there's a good bit of fat they could trim form their COGS, and I wonder how much of that figure is just bloated overhead within their supply chain.





docvail said:


> R&D, or tooling costs, or what I pay Rusty and Aaron to do design? Mmmmmnnnoo, I don't think so. Those costs are like software development costs. It contributes to the cost of the product being sold, but it cant really be broken down and evenly applied to every unit, when you don't know how many units to apply it to in advance, and those costs are incurred regardless of how many units get sold, or when they get sold.
> 
> Those really need to NOT be included in COGS. I think tooling costs might even be left off the P&L entirely, and put somewhere on the balance sheet, if we're actually creating tooling that we'd "own". Accounting standards require R&D to be listed as expenses, as incurred, so they definitely should not be included.


Not an accountant, but an MBA here. With a lot of experience on Supply Chain and Manufacturing.

In my experience, R&D, tooling, and cost of equipment are added to the COGS. They're basically summed up and amortized over a period of time. To calculate it you just divide this amortization cost between the number of products manufactured, and probably this explains why the industry is so obsessed with over producing: because they have a ton of amortized expense to share; or in other words, they're paying the bill.

This is why in house movements are so damn expensive for companies who used to buy of-the-shelf movements, if they need to buy the machinery and make the tooling, that has to be added to the cost of every individual piece you make. That's why Omega says that their in-house coaxial calibre is five times more expensive to make than the ETA 2824, they're still paying for the investment on tooling, CNC machinery, line erotion equipment and the like, meanwhile the old ETA-2824 is being manufactured on decades old equipment already "paid for".

I think also part of the ludicrous manufacturing expense is in the inventory itself: I remember reading a report years ago that most companies have an average time of raw material to manufactured product conversion of one year and some, with some raw materials taking up to five years to be fully converted in sell-able items. This isn't your average stupid: this is advanced, pants-in-the-head stupid! By the time you make the damn thing the raw material is so frigging bloated with cost of inventory that it's no surprise it's priced as if were made of unobtanium!!!

I don't have experience on the watch industry itself, but I'd agree that there has to be some 'bloat' or middle men on the Supply Chain, specially on semi manufactured items that most companies cannot make in-house, like the hair-spring, balance wheel and escape mechanism. But in the end of the day, steel and gold have a fixed and expected price and no company owner is going to allow for such thing. And from the report you linked there's four companies that are well documented they make EVERYTHING in house: Rolex and the big three. If intermediaries where the only explanation for the bloated cost these four would have a much smaller COGS.

Anyway, that's my .02, take it for what it's worth.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

liquidtension said:


> Look at that hands... such beauty...
> 
> View attachment 14030337


Nice, ain't they?





C300 and Ghost Rider of course. I NEED a Skipjack. But no money....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> Not an accountant, but an MBA here. With a lot of experience on Supply Chain and Manufacturing.
> 
> In my experience, R&D, tooling, and cost of equipment are added to the COGS. They're basically summed up and amortized over a period of time. To calculate it you just divide this amortization cost between the number of products manufactured, and probably this explains why the industry is so obsessed with over producing: because they have a ton of amortized expense to share; or in other words, they're paying the bill.
> 
> ...


If it wasn't already made abundantly clear, I do the research necessary to make sure what I'm saying is correct before I post here, because I don't know who might read it.

Trust me, R&D can't be included in COGS.

https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/accounting/research-and-development-rd/

*Accounting for R&D*

The general problem with R&D accounting is that future benefits from research and development are uncertain and *R&D expenditures cannot be capitalized*. *Accounting standards require companies to expense all research and development expenditures as incurred. *However, in case of an M&A transaction, the R&D expenses of the target company may be capitalized because the acquirer can recognize the fair value of the R&D assets. *The R&D costs are included in the company's operating expenses and are usually reflected in its income statement.*









Note that COGS is near the top line. The cost of goods sold expense can only be accounted for AS GOODS ARE SOLD.

Note that R&D is a separate item, farther down the balance sheet. The R&D expense MUST be accounted for AS INCURRED. When doing R&D, there's no way for a company to know how many products they'll be making and selling, so they CANNOT simply add up the R&D costs, and divide by the number of products sold - they haven't sold ANY yet.

R&D absolutely cannot be included in COGS, in any company, regardless of the product being made, even in-house movements.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

OK, I stand corrected then


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

PS -



Pato_Lucas said:


> ...And from the report you linked there's four companies that are well documented they make EVERYTHING in house: Rolex and the big three. If intermediaries where the only explanation for the bloated cost these four would have a much smaller COGS.
> 
> Anyway, that's my .02, take it for what it's worth.


The report only focused on publicly-traded Swatch and Richemont group. The only one of the "big three / holy trinity" brands owned by either is Vacheron, part of Richemont.

Rolex is privately held, and so doesn't have to disclose any financial info publicly. The other two holy trinity brands, AP and Patek, likewise appear to be privately held.

I generally assume the production of Rolex is fairly vertically integrated, but there's no way to tell, and even if they own their own facilities, that doesn't mean all their facilities are in Switzerland.

I know AP's isn't entirely integrated. We passed their crown factory in Shenzhen on our way to tour a case factory.

I wouldn't put too much stock in online "experts" who say any watch company is "making everything in-house, in Switzerland/Germany", at any price. "EVERYTHING"??? That's an awfully high hurdle. More likely, they're using outside specialty vendors for some components, and if so, then there's opportunity for middle-man bloat.

Understand - I've toured factories making almost every component. I never saw crystals, handsets, or crowns being made, but that's about it. I've seen assembly, plating, straps, cases, bracelets, clasps, dials...even spring bars being made.

Every facility I went to, for the most part, was huge. Enormous. They have to be, in order to gain economies of scale, and keep production costs within the realm of the reasonable. For one company to own that much plant and equipment - in SWITZERLAND - with all the associated industrial waste and overhead, is virtually unthinkable.

Even for a company producing with the volume of a Swatch Group, I don't think it would make sense. But, assuming they do own and operate a lot of heavy-industry type facilities in Europe, that could possibly explain the COGS.

Beyond the higher cost of European labor, I could see the higher cost of energy (imported from Russia?), regulatory compliance (worker safety, environmental impact), infrastructure (gotta have roads, fences, security, power lines, drainage, etc), etc.

The thing is - I've seen luxury brand components being made in China. People might ask how I knew they were real, not fake. To which I say - if they were real, why do they cost so much more than my parts? If they were fake, trust me, the quality was good enough to fool anyone, so WHY WOULDN'T the Swiss offshore their production to China, where the production costs are going to be so much lower?

Semi-related...not long ago I mentioned inheriting my great-grandfather's railroad pocket watch. It had a broken balance staff. My watchmaker tells me he ordered one, but it was too short, indicating it was the wrong part. He told me he could make a new one on his lathe, but then he'd be charging me $200 just for that part, on top of his other work, and the watch is only worth $100-$200, tops. He's still looking for a ready-made part, so we don't have to go that route.

One part, a small one, made by one guy, on a lathe - $200. Okay, it's just one part. Surely the per-unit costs would be less if a company was cranking out that part over and over again, and the guys standing there at the lathe weren't WOSTEP-trained watchmakers. But, still...

Take that, and extrapolate to a ETA 2824-2 purchased in bulk for $100 - all those parts, plus assembly, for $100. All "made in Switzerland"? I don't think so.

In that context, a $1650 COGS might seem like a bargain, if you think it's all done in Switzerland, but in that case, the numbers wouldn't add up, and it would need to be MUCH higher.

The numbers never seem to add up. All I can do is look at my own costs, and quality, and research prevailing rates for skilled labor in various countries, and make some comparisons.

Japan, Switzerland and America are all well-developed economies, with high labor costs, and high operational / regulatory compliance costs. A hand-crafted, hand-wind RGM starts around $3k. An automatic Grand Seiko starts a tad higher, ~$3300.

https://www.conference-board.org/ilcprogram/index.cfm?id=38269

[^Link may not work. Looks like that site restricts access in some way.]

Compensation costs (within manufacturing) in Japan have been coming down, compared to the USA, and as of 2016, were about 2/3 (68%) of what they are in America.

In Switzerland, they'be been going up compared to the USA. As of 2016, they're 55% higher than the US.

In China, they've been steadily rising (something I'm well aware of). As of 2013, the most recent year for which I was able to find figures, they were 11% of US costs.

https://www.conference-board.org/ilcprogram/index.cfm?id=38270#Table4

[^Link may not work. Looks like that site restricts access in some way.]

Those are just labor rates. Raw materials should be more-or-less the same. All the other costs - utilities, real estate, regulatory compliance - those are all potentially big variables.

Okay, so...someone explain it to me. How do you get to $1650 COGS for a Swiss watch, and a $10,000 retail price? I'm not being sarcastic. I really am struggling to make sense of the numbers, given the lack of transparency into and explanation of them.

If the Swiss are truly making everything in Switzerland, the COGS should be much higher (I'd think). If they're not, then why aren't the COGS much lower, closer to mine?

Whatever the explanations may be, the bottom line is a $10k retail price makes their market VERY small, and their production numbers way too large in that context.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

A part of their COGS must be middle-man markup, and we know that for a fact, because of the Swiss Made stamp. That stamp and its rules are very finely optimized to support "Swiss" component supplier factories who buy in asian-made components and "Add value in Switzerland" (i.e. bump up the cost - that is the value they add, literally), so enable whomever is buying further in the chain to use "swiss made" badging.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> A part of their COGS must be middle-man markup, and we know that for a fact, because of the Swiss Made stamp. That stamp and its rules are very finely optimized to support "Swiss" component supplier factories who buy in asian-made components and "Add value in Switzerland" (i.e. bump up the cost - that is the value they add, literally), so enable whomever is buying further in the chain to use "swiss made" badging.


More or less exactly.

This is the main reason I've been saying the Swiss Made rules are part of the problem, for the Swiss.

If Tissot and Hamilton were to stop trying to meet the standards for "Swiss Made", and just did everything the way most companies in that price range do things, maybe their costs go down, maybe not (probably not), but at least, there wouldn't be any implied deceit. We could stop pretending a $600 watch is "Swiss Made".

But, more importantly, take the needless markups out of the watches being made elsewhere, but passing through Switzerland in some form, in order to be called "Swiss Made", no doubt SOME of those prices would come down, at least SOMEWHAT. Think about brands like Longines, or Oris, or pretty much anything from $1000 and up - there's got to be some costs they could cut.

They'd still need to address their operational costs, where I assume there's more bloat, but removing the increasingly irrelevant "Swiss Made" label would open up opportunity to streamline their productions, where it looks like there's a good bit of fat around the edges.


----------



## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

FWIW, Rolex isn't entirely in-house. I'd say their vertical integration is somewhere in the 90% zone. Their model generally consists of outsourcing to a competent factor, buying exclusivity of that factory if not buying the factory outright entirely. Even with almost total manufacturing control, they still don't create everything.
My tours and communication with the Swiss revealed that there is a great deal of manufacturing they do within the country, but they aren't shy about saying which parts (largely crystals and casing components, depending on the brand) they outsource to China. Bear in mind the stipulation for bearing the mark Swiss Made is much more lax than Made in the USA


----------



## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

FWIW, Rolex isn't entirely in-house. I'd say their vertical integration is somewhere in the 90% zone. Their model generally consists of outsourcing to a competent factor, buying exclusivity of that factory if not buying the factory outright entirely. Even with almost total manufacturing control, they still don't create everything.
My tours and communication with the Swiss revealed that there is a great deal of manufacturing they do within the country, but they aren't shy about saying which parts (largely crystals and casing components, depending on the brand) they outsource to China. Bear in mind the stipulation for bearing the mark Swiss Made is much more lax than Made in the USA


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

MikeyT said:


> Nice, ain't they?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Skipjack is probably one of the underrated one!


----------



## Scila (Apr 4, 2019)

Class!


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Scila said:


> Class!


Awesome first post.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Scila said:


> Class!


Awesome first post.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Ossamanity (Nov 28, 2016)

So sad I flipped it.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ossamanity said:


> So sad I flipped it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More coming soon.

Just sayin'...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just a general FYI, for everyone...

We're looking at the next batch of Subs coming in near the end of this month or early next. It's always the same, with every production. There's always some small detail to sort out, for quality's sake, and I never know for sure when I'll get them until they're on their way to me. For now, I'm just guessing late April/early May.

Yesterday we sent out an email blast to folks with more than 5,000 loyalty rewards points, in which we explained how to redeem them (double-secret, exclusive, gotta-know-the-secret-knock, loyalty-rewards-members-only pre-order). If you know you've got more than 5,000 points, you should have seen that email. 

If not, check your junk mail folder, or, maybe you unsubscribed from our email list. So far, 100% of the people who told me "I never got the email" were people who unsubscribed themselves. You can re-subscribe using the form on the website, and we might re-send the email early next week. You might want to resubscribe before then.

If you got that email, please, for the love of all that's holy, do NOT re-post it, or any links within it. You would NOT be helping, if you did that. Like I said, it's double-secret, exclusive, gotta-know-the-secret-knock, pre-order for loyalty-rewards-members-only.

If you're not sure how many points you have ("Do I have over 5,000 points?"), and you find you can't log into your rewards points account on the website, create a new password, and use the same email you've used when ordering from either of our websites in the past. You'll see your existing points balance. We sent out an email to folks about it, last fall, when we changed websites. It seems two or three dozen people overlooked it ("Why can't I log into my account?").

There are a few versions of the upcoming Subs which we won't have available on the NTH site, at all, because the retailers bought most of them, and people who had loyalty rewards points to redeem have claimed the few we had left. 

If you want one of the upcoming Subs, and you've got over 5,000 rewards points to redeem, you should convert those points to coupon codes, and get one, sooner, rather than later. 

If you don't have over 5,000 points, I strongly recommend registering your interest with your closest NTH retailer, sooner, rather than later. I'm guessing most of what we've got coming will be sold within 30-60 days of us receiving them. The last big production we received (in November), our store was sold out in 6 weeks, and today, our retailers maybe have 20 pieces left, worldwide. The 200 pieces we got in January went faster than a 16 year old boy in an '89 Camaro.

Don't be the guy who emails me to ask when we'll be making more of something we were promoting for 4 months, had in stock for 2 months, and don't plan to make again for at least 12 months. 

Be the guy who plans ahead, and gets what he wants. I'm being your friend, here.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I didn't receive that email.. on wait. I don't have 5,000 points. Anyway I have contacted one of the retailers for interest list.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Thanks Chris,









My 3rd Barracuda


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

lots of barracudas you have there.... I only need one. and one nacken.. and one skipjack and one of everything..

Anyway, Chris anyplans for DLC cases?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> View attachment 14035953
> 
> lots of barracudas you have there.... I only need one. and one nacken.. and one skipjack and one of everything..
> 
> Anyway, Chris anyplans for DLC cases?


Weird, you're the second person to ask me today.

Not weird - also the second person to be told no, no plans.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> I didn't receive that email.. on wait. I don't have 5,000 points. Anyway I have contacted one of the retailers for interest list.


If you're in Singapore, you should contact theWatchDrobe in Hong Kong. It doesn't appear that Watch Wonderland will be ordering any from this batch.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

It's crazy. I went to your website (stoked to be part of the super secret club) to look at those Dolphins for my wife...she's decided she wants a "good everyday watch...like yours, hon." <eyeroll>

Anyway, man alive Doc, you're sold out of everything. I guess you're doing something right. SS Rolex Sub is almost easier to get than an NTH sub lately.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> Weird, you're the second person to ask me today.
> 
> Not weird - also the second person to be told no, no plans.


I see. Just that's ok. DLC coating will increase the price quite a bit.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> If you're in Singapore, you should contact theWatchDrobe in Hong Kong. It doesn't appear that Watch Wonderland will be ordering any from this batch.


Yup, that's what I did. The guy I contacted is super helpful too  Top notch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> It's crazy. I went to your website (stoked to be part of the super secret club) to look at those Dolphins for my wife...she's decided she wants a "good everyday watch...like yours, hon." <eyeroll>
> 
> Anyway, man alive Doc, you're sold out of everything. I guess you're doing something right. SS Rolex Sub is almost easier to get than an NTH sub lately.


We're sold out of everything now, but our retailers still have some pieces available, depending on what you were looking for. Check their sites. I was wrong when I said above that there might be 20 pieces left, worldwide. I think it must be more like 50-ish, but none of them is sitting on many pieces of anything.

It's nice to be sold out. It beats the alternative. I'm thankful, and yet, also kind of frustrated sometimes.

In an ideal world, the last guy who wanted any watch would buy the last one we have, the day before we get the next batch in. But, obviously, that's not how things work out in the real world.

Instead, we blow through some models, and get guys asking "what happened?". Meanwhile, we sit on other models for 2-3 months longer than expected, or end up pointing people to the one retailer who still has a few pieces of something in stock, for some reason. We're still trying to figure out the "right" mix of models and the geographic distribution.

But, yes, for the moment, I think we've got a lot of the numbers pretty well dialed-in, to the point that we're not seeing everything sell out instantly, everywhere, but we're also not seeing everything lingering on the shelves for 6 months or more. When we see something sell out quickly, we make more right away. If a model takes longer to sell out, we'll wait longer before we make more.

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk. I want people to be happy. I hate to disappoint people. But I can't keep every model in stock indefinitely. We have to turn the inventory over at about the same pace it takes to produce it, otherwise, the business just doesn't work. That means customers can't take 3-6 months to think things over, starting from the date we've got inventory in stock.

If you need 3-6 months (and I know that's pretty normal for most in this hobby), I'm forecasting what we've got coming months in advance. We started talking about this inbound batch in January. I posted to my blog about all of them on January 27th. If we get them in by the end of April, that will be 3 months we've been talking about them. They might be sold out within 60 days, give or take. That's 5 months from January to June-ish.

I appreciate that people come here to keep up with what we're doing, or follow us on IG or FB, or subscribe to the email newsletter, or read the blog. I want all you guys to get what you want. I feel terrible telling a guy we're not planning on making the watch he wants anytime soon.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Aaaaannnnddddd... we finally (YAY!) got the L/XL case design back from the case factory engineers, literally today, so we can get back to working on that. I'm extremely happy with the case in its "final" form. It's been a while since Rusty and I dug into the small details on a case design, but it was worth it. 

In much the same way that the 40mm case combined an iconic look with a new benchmark for thinness-at-a-spec, I think the L/XL Sub will be equally remarkable. It's hard to search for watches by cross-referencing water resistance by case thickness, but I think it may be the thinnest case ever produced with its WR spec.

Once we're ready to reveal the designs, maybe folks here will help us out by doing some internet sleuthing.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> I see. Just that's ok. DLC coating will increase the price quite a bit.


Pretty much the reason I gave.

DLC does raise the costs. A company has to decide if they want to charge more for the DLC version, or spread the costs out across all versions. I really can't do that, because we're not making a new model. Everyone already knows what the Subs cost. I'd have to charge more for the DLC.

When we did the Phantoms, the DLC versions were $25 more, but that was just a DLC case, and DLC buckle on the leather straps. If you want a DLC bracelet, the right way to do it is to individually coat every link separately, then assemble them. It adds a good bit more to the price.

Even though the price on the Phantom was only $25 more, we didn't sell as many in pre-order, so we made fewer of them, and they still ended up being the last ones to sell.

Doing a DLC Sub with DLC bracelet would add at least $50, if not $100 to the price. Now we're talking over $700 for a microbrand watch with a 9015 inside. A lot of people balk at that price, and not nearly enough people really want the DLC badly enough to pay for it.

The longer I do this, the less I can afford to spin my wheels dealing with one-off, low-volume specials. I'm not doing any more 10 or 15-piece editions. We're making at least 50 pieces of anything we make, and preferably we'll be able to rationalize producing more than that.

Maybe we can sell 50 DLC Subs for over $700 each, maybe not. But I'm 100% certain we can sell 50 stainless steel Subs, for $100 less, so why screw around taking a flyer making 50 pieces of something we're not sure we can sell?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

DLC sure does look dark


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

FWIW, seriouswatches has some Dolphins in stock.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> In much the same way that the 40mm case combined an iconic look with a new benchmark for thinness-at-a-spec, I think the L/XL Sub will be equally remarkable. It's hard to search for watches by cross-referencing water resistance by case thickness, but I think it may be the thinnest case ever produced with its WR spec.


Hmm. Interesting, that. Unlikely that it'd be 300m and thinner than the regular sub, considering what you've said about tolerances and crystal size already. Sooo, either it's a crazy flat dinnerplate with 100m wr, or it's more than 300m WR without the "chunk" that a lot of 500m or 1000m or 2000m divers have. Will be interesting to see how the actual numbers turn out, and how it ends up looking.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm. Interesting, that. Unlikely that it'd be 300m and thinner than the regular sub, considering what you've said about tolerances and crystal size already. Sooo, either it's a crazy flat dinnerplate with 100m wr, or it's more than 300m WR without the "chunk" that a lot of 500m or 1000m or 2000m divers have. Will be interesting to see how the actual numbers turn out, and how it ends up looking.


You're on the right track.

It's a diver, and bigger than the 40mm, so no way to make it thinner. We went for more WR, and kept it as thin as possible overall, plus employed our usual tricks to make it wear even thinner.

The case is awesome. A nice mix of vintage and modern. We looked at small details we never looked at before.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

docvail said:


> If I understand you correctly, a "supercase", as you call it, would be the same case, but with wider lugs?
> 
> That's a new term to me. If I understand you correctly, we're definitely not thinking about it, and it doesn't sound like something we'd do, in the ordinary course of business, as lug width is generally 1/2 of diameter, and that ratio generally seems to give a watch the most appealing proportions, at least for watches with round cases. I think wider lugs would make more sense with square and cushion cases.
> 
> ...


Chris,
I was under the impression that the Nacken range when released in 2016 were "Limited Edition" items, is the planned production identical to the 2016 release, and if not, what is the difference.


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

docvail said:


> If I understand you correctly, a "supercase", as you call it, would be the same case, but with wider lugs?
> 
> That's a new term to me. If I understand you correctly, we're definitely not thinking about it, and it doesn't sound like something we'd do, in the ordinary course of business, as lug width is generally 1/2 of diameter, and that ratio generally seems to give a watch the most appealing proportions, at least for watches with round cases. I think wider lugs would make more sense with square and cushion cases.
> 
> ...


Nacken range list omitted from previous post


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

BigEd said:


> Chris,
> I was under the impression that the Nacken range when released in 2016 were "Limited Edition" items, is the planned production identical to the 2016 release, and if not, what is the difference.


List of Nacken range omitted from previous post


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

BigEd said:


> Chris,
> I was under the impression that the Nacken range when released in 2016 were "Limited Edition" items, is the planned production identical to the 2016 release, and if not, what is the difference.


Sorry Ed. I'm certain I never meant to give that impression, that they'd be limited editions. But I have tried, often, to clarify the difference between "limited edition" (as in, we make a set number, then no more), and "limited production" (as in, we don't own the factory, so we produce limited - meaning finite - numbers).

Those numbers were just a snapshot in time of the models we'd produced as of whenever I posted that graphic. I've since stopped keeping count for each model.

The models haven't substantially changed. We moved the date window from ~4:35 to 6 on some models, added a with date version to some models, changed the bracelet/clasp, and made some incremental quality improvements, but that's all.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> You're on the right track.
> 
> It's a diver, and bigger than the 40mm, so no way to make it thinner. We went for more WR, and kept it as thin as possible overall, plus employed our usual tricks to make it wear even thinner.
> 
> ...


Sooooo, 3-5 months? Heh...

Also, my swear jar is filling up rapidly... er, watch fund jar...

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Black watches?









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

hwa said:


> Black watches?


^ Must be tricky to set the time on that last one.

Manual wind or automatic?

Etc., etc.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Not at all, Jake. The last is solar-powered and it’s always on. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Sooooo, 3-5 months? Heh...
> 
> Also, my swear jar is filling up rapidly... er, watch fund jar...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


I wish.

As is so often the case, instead of getting things back when I've got time available to work on them, we get them back when I've got no time.

I'm away on a 4-day mini-vacation this weekend. I'll have all of two days in the office this coming week. We're doing a workshop for startup microbrands this coming Thursday and Friday, then our Mid-Atlantic GTG is Saturday. I'm going to be jammed up for the next 8 days.

We had some design discussions about a month or so ago, maybe farther back. I sent Rusty and @synaptyx some ideas I thought we could explore. We're in a place where we want to do things which are still vintage-inspired, but yet not quite so obvious about the source of inspiration. The challenge is striking the right balance between paying homage and being original.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I wish.
> 
> As is so often the case, instead of getting things back when I've got time available to work on them, we get them back when I've got no time.
> 
> ...


No worries Doc, take your time. I'm fully confident that whichever lean the design tilts towards, I'll be there. I have fought the urge to "in the meantime" fill my varied shopping carts with anything drastic... though, there IS a Devil Fox on the dreaded 'Bay... Damn fine piece that one.. Doubt the seller would take my OBO seriously at this financial juncture..

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cerb









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

nthb.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Loving the skipjack








Strapping it with tropics strap makes it very "tool-ish"


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

f.a.o. docvail, "eta movement shortage has started": https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/eta-shortage-has-started-real-what-sellita-place-4930101.html


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> f.a.o. docvail, "eta movement shortage has started": https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/eta-shortage-has-started-real-what-sellita-place-4930101.html


So...since I don't currently use any Swiss movements, and am not trying to make a GMT, this has no impact on me.

That said, I'm torn between thinking there's more going on here, and less.

I've known about brands using NOS movements for a while. At least one of the names would surprise people. They've had similar problems to what MV are claiming. On the one hand, then, the story rings true.

On the other hand, the use of NOS movements predates this MV project, by a good bit, and happened at a time when new ETA movements were still available. The use of NOS movements is apparently a cost cutting measure. If you know the right people, ETAs are still available, from what I've been told, fairly recently.

Draw your own conclusions. It certainly seems possible to me that a project based on the availability of NOS ETA movements, then switching to Sellita, could just be neophyte project creators discovering the problems with NOS movements, and not a sign of the impending apocalypse.

That's not to say that all is fine. I still think we'll see some dramatic changes in the supply chain over the next few years, but I don't think this MV project is necessarily proof of anything other than MV being too far out in front of their skis, something that can and does happen to startup brands.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> A remake of the Phantom A in a DLC case and leather strap would be awesome, just saying.
> 
> Speaking of the email, I decided to just wait for Serious Watches to have the models in stock and not having to deal with customs, is this still possible or is everything sold out everywhere?


Nothing is sold out anywhere, yet. We haven't started sales yet, other than taking reservations from our loyalty rewards customers.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Ah, interesting. (I just pinged you since you've been quite open with your thoughts on Swatch's long term strategy - I figured this might interest you as a discussion topic in that field. No relation to NTH brand per se  )


P.S. with xc skiing, the real risk is being too far behind your own skis. That's when the skis slip out in front and you fall backwards.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Pato_Lucas said:


> A remake of the Phantom A in a DLC case and leather strap would be awesome, just saying.
> 
> Speaking of the email, I decided to just wait for Serious Watches to have the models in stock and not having to deal with customs, is this still possible or is everything sold out everywhere?


Best if you message the SeriousWatches guy and say you're interested in X. He can probably set up some kind of a local "reserved" queue on his end.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Best if you message the SeriousWatches guy and say you're interested in X. He can probably set up some kind of a local "reserved" queue on his end.


Might as well do, I really want a Barracuda, thanks for the tip.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Ah, interesting. (I just pinged you since you've been quite open with your thoughts on Swatch's long term strategy - I figured this might interest you as a discussion topic in that field. No relation to NTH brand per se  )
> 
> P.S. with xc skiing, the real risk is being too far behind your own skis. That's when the skis slip out in front and you fall backwards.


No worries. I saw the fracas about the MV project developing on Facebook. Hard to miss. I don't really want to comment much. No point, really, unless and until people take the story and make it about all micros, or the industry, or anything more than simply about one brand's problems, which I suppose is inevitable. In that case, all I'd want to do is plead for people to use some reason and logic, and hopefully add clarity if and where I can.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Doc said "In that case, all I'd want to do is plead for people to use some reason and logic ...."
Considering the time in which we live and past posts of this forum, that is quite unreasonable and illogical!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Ah, interesting. (I just pinged you since you've been quite open with your thoughts on Swatch's long term strategy - I figured this might interest you as a discussion topic in that field. No relation to NTH brand per se  )
> 
> P.S. with xc skiing, the real risk is being too far behind your own skis. That's when the skis slip out in front and you fall backwards.


This is an alpine crowd. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

soon...soon.









odin blue


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

I'd like to share my summer setup with you guys 









FYI, its a "Cheapestnatostraps" strap.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Been a weird few weeks.

We get at least half a dozen collaboration / influencer pitches each week. Nothing new there. But in the last 3 weeks, we've been pitched on a feature in a semi-obscure magazine in a completely unrelated industry, a coffee-table book, a new social media platform, and some sort of new curated microbrands website. We're passing on most of these. Too much effort, not enough upside. 

I couldn't help but think back to the private chat I had with none other than Ric Capucho, back in 2013. I predicted the coming wave of microbrands, like prospectors looking to strike gold. He cynically suggested the way to profit from the inevitable gold rush would be to sell picks and shovels. 

Ric is many things. An idealist isn't one of them.

All these guys pitching "exposure" and other ideas to make life easier on startup brands certainly seem to be selling picks and shovels, but some of the picks seem to be missing handles, and the shovels are either full of holes, or full of $hlt.

Meanwhile, I'm hearing about half a dozen brands, not all of them startups, completely $hltting the bed, and people asking me "what would YOU do in this situation?"

What would I do? I dunno. I make sure I $hlt in the toilet, not in the bed, and watch who I get into bed with. If the person sharing the bed $hlts in it, jump out, shower, and find another bed to sleep in. I guess you can tell everyone that Joe Blow $hlts the bed, but what good does that do you or them after Joe's emptied his bowels?


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Always amazed people will sell "expertise" and not know jack. I received an email today from some saying they have extra "credits" our team has that we can use to set up lunches with "experts" in our field and learn new things - the caveat; in their experience, only 1 out of 5 was actually an expert, and only half those experts did you actually learn from. I ask, "why don't we just try to return the credits." But I digress. Anyways, you could always do an NTH x L&H and be your own collaborator.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Always amazed people will sell "expertise" and not know jack. I received an email today from some saying they have extra "credits" our team has that we can use to set up lunches with "experts" in our field and learn new things - the caveat; in their experience, only 1 out of 5 was actually an expert, and only half those experts did you actually learn from. I ask, "why don't we just try to return the credits." But I digress. Anyways, you could always do an NTH x L&H and be your own collaborator.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I've seen competitors (if you can call them that) advertising OEM services ("we'll make your watch for you"), or "we'll help you launch your microbrand" types of consulting services.

It's actually kind of scary, if you know the guy offering to make your watch makes really crappy watches for his own brand, or the people who want to be your launch consultants never got off the ground themselves.

For a New York minute, I was interested in helping other brands get their watches made, but came to my senses and realized how terrible an idea that was. I can only imagine being on the other end of the phone, with a guy complaining about production delays, or design changes. It's hard enough for me to deal with it when it's happening with my own watches. I can't see myself being able to effectively manage that situation without driving to someone's house and throat-punching them.

I also briefly toyed with the idea of being the back-office for other brands. I'd plug their products into my website, offer their customers support, do their order fulfillment, etc. Again, I came to my senses, and realized I don't want to deal with other people's problems, self-made or otherwise.

"An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in a narrow field." - Niels Bohr.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of brands $hltting the bed...

I just want to check the air temperature here, so to speak.

Let's say Brand A is screwing up in some way that potentially hurts customers, and Brand B knows it. What's your impression and feeling if Brand B speaks out about Brand A?

Generally, I don't feel any qualms about criticizing a wide-spread industry practice, if I think the practice isn't good for business, but with very few exceptions, I'll stop short of naming the offenders, especially if it's another small brand. I can only think of one exception I ever made, and in my view, the exception was entirely warranted.

My feeling is, condemning a practice, like "cutting out the middleman" marketing BS, rather than a person or business, is kosher, if the criticism of the practice is fair. But I don't like to play that "name and shame" game, and wouldn't want another brand targeting me for attack (although it's happened).

I could do some serious damage to some competitors, if I disclosed some of what I know about them. It might benefit customers to know, but as much as I might want to help the public, I think that sort of disclosure just invites reprisals, and leads to a scorched-Earth outcome for one and all. 

But, not everyone agrees. I saw a recent example of one brand owner throwing another right under the bus. No lies were told as far as I know. Brand A was legitimately screwing up, but I was uncomfortable watching Brand B doing the take-down. 

What I found surprising is how little criticism Brand B got for taking down Brand A. It makes me wonder if people just tend to focus on the misbehavior of the Brand A's more than the unseemliness of the Brand B's acting as the whistle-blowers, or if there's a silent majority which is disgusted, and yet doesn't speak up.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hard to say. I don't have a negative view on whistleblowers at all - so in the hypothetical, I wouldn't get mad at brand B - especially if B is NOT doing the same thing as A. 

And it would help categorize the wheat and the chaff and lift some of the iron curtain secrecy, because let's be honest, currently we as customers know very little of what kinds of ...... things a lot of our (possibly) favoured brands are (possibly) doing. 

From that side, I'd like to see more clear callouts/exposes/investigations - because the industry "journalists" (bloggers, hodinkers, instagrammers, youtubers) sure as heck ain't gonna keep anyone accountable - and the only ones with enough reach to maybe actually get to such details (some Hodinkers) are too busy pleasuring Rolex/Tudor to even look elsewhere.

On the other hand, this A-B scenario absolutely will lead to bad blood between brands and definitely there will be reprisals, possibly even fanboy crusades and sh*tposting as retaliation for perceived slights.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

What Elijah said.
I like to be informed, even if sponging information purely for entertainment. Watching watch news can be a spectator sport. That's said I am invested in NTH's rep and don't necessarily want you to declare war on another brand.


But if you did I'd be sure to make popcorn and watch.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Tough situation. Brand A vs Brand B. I’m sure we’d all like to know if certain brands are shady. One of the reasons I’m hesitant to buy expensive watches is the paranoia that the higher price would just be buying hype. Or worse, a crappy watch. 

Hard to ask you to roll on your peers, though. 

But I’d happily read whatever details any insiders have shared. Where would one find the recent A vs B bus toss you mentioned?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I think there's an unspoken yet understood code of silence embedded within the industry code of conduct. 

Small brands vs big brands stuff? Sure. That's to be expected.

Small brands vs small brands stuff? Not so fast.

The handful of times I've seen small brands try to throw other small brands under the bus, I know it irked a lot of small brand owners, and we giddily watched as that same small brand later had problems of its own making. That schadenfreude was too delicious not to enjoy. 

If there was rampant brand-on-brand crime, I do think there would be reprisals, between brands, and it would drag enthusiasts into the fray, in support of their favored brands. I can't see how it could possibly turn out well.

I've spent the last 6 years thinking that I'd follow the maxim I learned in the Army, "lead by example", and wait for the industry and market to catch up to what I saw as developing best practices. 

But, while some of that does seem to be happening, there's still the recurring examples of businesses behaving badly, at the expense of customers, who in turn seem to lump all small brands together when the sheets are pulled back, and the $hlt in the bed gets discovered. I don't like seeing small brands doing things which hurt the market perception of small brands, because I think it hurts all of us.

So like I said, I've been trying to toe the line by calling out what I see as bad behaviors without naming those behaving badly, and letting the market do its own sleuthing and labeling. I was and still am made uncomfortable when I see brand owners try to elevate themselves at other brands' expense, even if they're telling the truth about the brands being "outed". 

A handful of times, when I've seen people I know - I mean you people, not brand owners - struggling in their dealings with a brand, I've reached out privately to those guys, and tried to shed light, "the movement is 'Swiss' by way of China; the lume shouldn't just fall out of the bezel insert; their proposed solution is BS," etc. 

The guys I was speaking to always seem to appreciate the insights, and I've never felt bad about helping them in that way, but it's hard for me to imagine crossing the line from private exchange into a public exposition of a brand's shady ways.

But, like I said, I've seen some brand owners target other brands for a take down, and it doesn't always cause a backlash, at least not a big, immediate, publicly-visible backlash. It got me wondering if maybe I'm missing something, and the code of silence is something I've just been imagining, or brought with me from my past careers.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

There's something in the water right now, it seems.

It's only Wednesday. Just this week, I've heard of 4 brands going under. Two I know (the two smaller ones), two yet to be revealed (larger), though I've got a hunch about one of them. 

Funny that Basel was just last month. Probably coincidental, but ironic timing nonetheless, given the insane expenses involved with that show.

I recently developed a theory about the life span of paradigms or regionalized hegemony within the industry. Looking at how long each epoch lasted, it seems to me that they're all about half as long as the one which preceded them.

Period 1 - UK dominance - John Harrison's invention of marine chronometers for determination of longitude at sea, c. early/mid-1700's to the mid-1800's, about 100-150 years.

Period 2 - USA dominance - Rejection of the English guild system in watchmaking, western expansion by rail, the rise of railway watches, c. mid-1800's to the great wars, about 50-75 years.

Period 3 - Swiss dominance - America and England turn their attention and industry to the wars, then manufacturing of automobiles and other mass-produced products. Switzerland stays out of the wars, and leap-frogs over the USA and UK in watchmaking dominance, c. early/mid 1900's to the '70's/'80's, about 35 years.

Period 4 - Rise of Japan/the electronic age - Japan, specifically Seiko, goes all in on quartz movement development, starts eating Switzerland's breakfast, lunch and dinner, creating the so-called "quartz crisis", and nearly eradicating the Swiss industry. Swiss banks call in Nick Hayek, who breaks up the vertically-integrated Swiss maisons, dividing the industry between "front office" functions (design, sales, marketing) and "back office" (manufacturing), while simultaneously consolidating brands into the Swatch Group. The Swiss industry group FHS trademarks the "Swiss Made" label, and Swiss brands all decide to market Swiss watches as luxury goods, rather than utility goods, in order to avoid head-to-head price comparisons with lower-priced / better-performing quartz watches from Japan. C. mid/late '80's to late 2000's. About 20 years. 

Period 5 - Rise of China and micros - As Swiss brands continue to go up in price, and Japanese brands gobble up the territory the Swiss leave behind, China turns up the heat by becoming the world's home of outsourced manufacturing, giving rise to microbrands. China also starts taking market share away from Japan at the lower end of the market, so the Japanese begin to follow the Swiss uphill. Meanwhile, the global recession which starts in 2008 beats the Swiss luxury brands like a rented mule.

That's where we've been, for the last 10 years. If the pattern holds, period 5 should last 10-12 years. we're due for a new paradigm to emerge, starting at any moment.

When I made the case that Swatch Group's move to cut off supply of ETA movements was with the foresight regarding the recent industry trends, this is what I think Nick Hayek sees - we're headed for some upheaval, blood in the streets. I'm definitely seeing it. There's just too much production capacity, too many brands, too little margin, too few customers, etc, etc, etc.

I spent the weekend at Disney. Our last day there, we visited Disney Springs, an outdoor outlet mall. The mall itself was packed, but almost every store I looked into was virtually empty. In my head, I kept thinking, "retail is dead."

The one exception was Tokyo-based UniQlo. Amazingly, the store was bustling, despite being enormous. It dwarfed all the other stores - about a city-block-sized footprint, and two stories. I spent the rest of the day trying to analyze why that one enormous store packed a crowd when all the other, smaller stores were dead. I have some ideas, but the one undeniable differentiator was their lower-than-typical-for-that-mall prices. People love a bargain.

I went into a luxury watch AD. They carried Breitling, Zenith, Bremont, Ulysse Nardin, and Hublot, plus lower-priced brands Movado, Shinola, Tissot, and Citizen. They had 7 employees working the floor. I was the only customer in there for the first ten minutes I was there. They only had two more by the time I walked out, and my hunch is those two didn't buy anything too expensive, just judging by their appearance. The rent, utilities and salaries for that day couldn't possibly be justified by whatever sales they may have made.

That sort of thing simply isn't sustainable long-term.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

and in light of the latest industry news...something to cure the blues...


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> The one exception was Tokyo-based UniQlo. Amazingly, the store was bustling, despite being enormous. It dwarfed all the other stores - about a city-block-sized footprint, and two stories. I spent the rest of the day trying to analyze why that one enormous store packed a crowd when all the other, smaller stores were dead. I have some ideas, but the one undeniable differentiator was their lower-than-typical-for-that-mall prices. People love a bargain.


I'm a big fan of Uniqlo, and it's because you can get good quality stuff that's somewhere near the forefront of daily wear casual fashion for a reasonable price. Target's cheaper, but their quality and fit isn't as good. Nordstrom has better quality and more fashion-forward lines, but is a good bit more expensive. I buy my shirts and shoes at Nordstrom, but almost everything else at Uniqlo.

In the age of $200 jeans, you can get a pair of slim Uniqlo jeans in a soft, comfy denim, with free tailoring on the length, for $50. Are they as good as the $200 jeans? I've only owned a few pair of those, and I don't really see the difference (but I'm not a jeans nerd). They also have cool t-shirts, affordable button down shirts for the office types, inexpensive good quality outerwear, and so on. You have to be the slim fit type for Uniqlo to work for you, but if you are, it's hard to beat their quality for the money.


----------



## hairy (Dec 16, 2011)

Period 6 - Nano brands - Additive manufacturing technology becomes cheap enough with improved tolerance to produce near net shaped cases and bracelets. Watch cases can be built at manufacturing hobby shops on rented machines, or with relatively few pieces (printer, finishing wheel, drill press, etc) in basements. Novel new designs are enabled by printing. Movements, crystals, hands, and dials continue to be outsourced from China. "Support local designer and manufacturing" movements take off, similar to farm to table in restaurants. Doc unveils his 38mm 3-hander after years of berating on the forums, tells everyone to leave him the f- alone now.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hairy said:


> Period 6 - Doc tells everyone to leave him the f- alone now.


FTFY.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

MaxIcon said:


> I'm a big fan of Uniqlo, and it's because you can get good quality stuff that's somewhere near the forefront of daily wear casual fashion for a reasonable price. Target's cheaper, but their quality and fit isn't as good. Nordstrom has better quality and more fashion-forward lines, but is a good bit more expensive. I buy my shirts and shoes at Nordstrom, but almost everything else at Uniqlo.
> 
> In the age of $200 jeans, you can get a pair of slim Uniqlo jeans in a soft, comfy denim, with free tailoring on the length, for $50. Are they as good as the $200 jeans? I've only owned a few pair of those, and I don't really see the difference (but I'm not a jeans nerd). They also have cool t-shirts, affordable button down shirts for the office types, inexpensive good quality outerwear, and so on. You have to be the slim fit type for Uniqlo to work for you, but if you are, it's hard to beat their quality for the money.


When I was recently in New York I walked past a Uniqlo store in midtown. I have seen the brand a few times, but I'm not a customer or terribly familiar. It was packed, so I lingered and looked in the windows for maybe 45 seconds, wondering what all the fuss was about.

Later that day I got an email from Uniqlo offering me a coupon good online or in-store. It addressed me by name.

I'm not on Facebook (or Twitter, or anything else), I've opted out of Verizon's marketing partner sharing programs, I don't allow Google's or Apple's location tracking on my phone, and the only apps that have access to my location are set to "when I'm using it," and I wasn't using anything. I'm still at a loss for who told Uniqlo I stopped in front of their store for half a minute and sent them my name and email address. Maybe it was just a huge cosmic coincidence and some other company I do business with happened to sell my data to Uniqlo, who happened to send me a first email on that day at that time. Don't know. But there was one guaranteed result -- I ain't never, ever shopping at a Uniqlo.

[/OT]


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I so didn't need this $hlt today...

"OMG! Look at this! He's making watches for $10-$20 each! He's ripping us off!" - said every person who was shocked to hear Chinese factories do this $hlt all the time.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

JakeJD said:


> I don't allow Google's or Apple's location tracking on my phone, and the only apps that have access to my location are set to "when I'm using it," and I wasn't using anything.
> [/OT]


On Android, it doesn't matter what you indicate, google is still tracking (and reporting to google's servers) your phone's position very regularly. That imo is the most likely source of this chain of events.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> On Android, it doesn't matter what you indicate, google is still tracking (and reporting to google's servers) your phone's position very regularly. That imo is the most likely source of this chain of events.


iPhone, but I use Google Maps. ;-) Further, it wasn't an email address for me that Google has.


----------



## sirgilbert357 (Mar 21, 2012)

docvail said:


> I so didn't need this $hlt today...
> 
> "OMG! Look at this! He's making watches for $10-$20 each! He's ripping us off!" - said every person who was shocked to hear Chinese factories do this $hlt all the time.
> 
> ...


Wow...sorry to see this Doc. That is infuriating. I don't get it though...are the sellers just THAT good at copying your product from a distance, or did someone at your factory actually sell off your design plans or something? Or do you think these are just images, and the actual product delivered would be way different than how the pics portray it?


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

sirgilbert357 said:


> Wow...sorry to see this Doc. That is infuriating. I don't get it though...are the sellers just THAT good at copying your product from a distance, or did someone at your factory actually sell off your design plans or something? Or do you think these are just images, and the actual product delivered would be way different than how the pics portray it?


Unless I'm mistaken (i mean 3d has gotten pretty good lately, and my eyes have been getting not so good) they literally took the render of the model and used a photo editing program to make it sterile


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

sirgilbert357 said:


> Wow...sorry to see this Doc. That is infuriating. I don't get it though...are the sellers just THAT good at copying your product from a distance, or did someone at your factory actually sell off your design plans or something? Or do you think these are just images, and the actual product delivered would be way different than how the pics portray it?





skuzapo said:


> Unless I'm mistaken (i mean 3d has gotten pretty good lately, and my eyes have been getting not so good) they literally took the render of the model and used a photo editing program to make it sterile


It's a simple matter of sending that seller $3000-6000 to settle the issue. :-!


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I so didn't need this $hlt today...
> 
> "OMG! Look at this! He's making watches for $10-$20 each! He's ripping us off!" - said every person who was shocked to hear Chinese factories do this $hlt all the time.
> 
> ...


This reminded me of the Balaur. Sea-Gull stole the design from Aevig then sold it before Chip even finished designing the Balaur

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

In terms of those regular 10or12-years-or-so upheavals, perhaps the next "pull the rug out from underneath everybody" will be the chinese watch manufacturing industry completely locking down its brand-contracting work to the west (maybe due to a gov't policy) and rely in their own personal inhouse brands. More than 50% swiss brands become non-productive, a lot of german brands go under, micros are done for, fashion brands are fff-ed, and the only unscathed players are the truly integrated expensive swiss brands (plus swatch) and german giants in the expensive range, and the japanese trio in the affordable end, facing an audience groomed to expect microbrand-style stuff.

This is kinda already happening with newcomers like Spinnaker, that take the "microbrand" ethos and undercut prices for most real micros.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

If I know the owner or a known agent of Brand A was personally involved in a takedown of Brand B, even if legit, I'd probably avoid Brand A product. I mean, if it was a legit complaint, I probably wouldn't be rushing out to buy Brand B out of some sense of support, either, but no one likes a snitch. It usually crops up on consumer end of things, anyway, sooner or simultaneously, which will sink Brand B just as good, and without Brand A having to act the dick. 

A savvy Brand A player would have a stooge or sock acct to do the dirty work, besides -- if Brand A owner is seriously out there slagging on some other brand specifically to get a leg up in the industry, not only are they scumbag, but they are also not smart enough to deserve the business...

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like entities who put others down to raise themselves up.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sirgilbert357 said:


> Wow...sorry to see this Doc. That is infuriating. I don't get it though...are the sellers just THAT good at copying your product from a distance, or did someone at your factory actually sell off your design plans or something? Or do you think these are just images, and the actual product delivered would be way different than how the pics portray it?


Sorry, I thought this sort of thing was commonly understood.

Here's what's happening, in broad strokes:

1. That's not my factory.

2. That factory just went to my website, and took the images right off our website. I know the factory. It's a well-known factory. They've done this before, to other brands, both large and small.

3. They don't have the engineering drawings for my watch (why I don't post them online). They couldn't make the DevilRay exactly the same without them, and/or without putting a lot of work into getting all the details just right. The DevilRay is a b1tch to produce. I had to wrestle with the factory over every aspect of its case design, internal and external.

4. There's no way in hell they could make it for $10-$20 each. Just a single component like a case or clasp would be more than that, let alone the movement, all the other parts, and assembly, and QC. This is basic AliBaba Factory BS 101. They put pretty pictures next to meaningless numbers, and hope to show up near the top of search results when people sort from lowest to highest cost estimates.

5. When you email them about that watch, they tell you they need you to send them YOUR design, then they can give you YOUR cost on YOUR design. The image and numbers are all meaningless.

6. The problems get created for micros when some jackwagon noob goes on there, sees that, then goes online to scream bloody murder that NTH is charging $700 for a watch that cost $10-$20 to make, because, everything you see on the interwebs is true, obviously.

This isn't really a "problem" for me. I posted this here, and on FB, with screen shots of my complaint to AliBaba, and emailed the factory directly, to tell them to remove the images, right away. I figure they will.

But even if they don't, still not a problem for me. Anyone stupid enough to think I'm working on those sort of margins deserves the ridicule they'll get for going online to scream about it.

In the meantime, I got out in front of any potential scandal erupting, by blowing the whistle on them, before someone thought they'd be blowing the whistle on me. It's the classic switcheroo!

That factory, ironically enough, was the first factory I hired to produce prototypes of my first watch. Not the Riccardo, the other first watch, which we never made. They never delivered the prototypes, after nearly 6 months of screwing around, so I fired them. They're a terrible factory, as anyone who's worked with them has discovered. They actually did me a huge favor. That first design sucked, and the quality would have been as bad.

Anyone silly enough to work with them, thinking they're getting THE DevilRay for $10-$20, deserves the rude awakening they're in for.

EDIT/PS - the most irritating thing about this is the timing. I've got 4 hours of work to do before tomorrow, and haven't been able to get to it, because of this and other things getting plopped on my plate today.

I blame Rusty for most of it.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> 2. That factory just went to my website, and took the images right off our website.


Their stupidity/laziness is to your benefit -- you can bust them just like you did under Alibaba rules, and if you wanted to take it a step further, copyright law.

Just sayin': since you're not making an NTH with a 12hr bezel, someone was bound to fill the void...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> In terms of those regular 10or12-years-or-so upheavals, perhaps the next "pull the rug out from underneath everybody" will be the chinese watch manufacturing industry completely locking down its brand-contracting work to the west (maybe due to a gov't policy) and rely in their own personal inhouse brands. More than 50% swiss brands become non-productive, a lot of german brands go under, micros are done for, fashion brands are fff-ed, and the only unscathed players are the truly integrated expensive swiss brands (plus swatch) and german giants in the expensive range, and the japanese trio in the affordable end, facing an audience groomed to expect microbrand-style stuff.
> 
> This is kinda already happening with newcomers like Spinnaker, that take the "microbrand" ethos and undercut prices for most real micros.


I don't know how realistic some of those specific details are, but, consider this, as food for thought...

I was interested to see that the labor costs of manufacturing have been steadily rising in Switzerland AND China, as compared to the labor cost component of manufacturing costs in the USA. It was equally interesting, though I'm not sure if it's at all relevant, to see the costs in Japan have been falling, compared to the USA.

The Chinese costs rising jives with what I learned on my visit there about a year ago - they're labor and manufacturing costs are going up, and it seems that it's led to some imbalances in their prices vs capacity. My guide predicted that most of the manufacturing would move to Vietnam or Thailand within the next 10 years.

What does that mean? Well, I think it means that the CHEAPEST manufacturing will move, but China will continue on, but will become (ironically), known for doing the better, higher-quality stuff.

If the Swiss brands can get away from the silliness of the Swiss Made label, and openly embrace Chinese manufacturing, the process could accelerate.

Micros, of course, will get the squeeze, if all that happens.

My goal is to grow and solidify my business as much and as quickly as I can before the shake up and the dust settles. I think we're all in a race against time, so to speak, to reach viability and sustainability before the landscape shifts under our feet, and we're unable to adjust quickly enough.

I don't think many in the industry realize it. That seems to be "normal". Most people don't realize they're in trouble until it's too late. We're all focused on what's right in front of us. But, if you're able to take some steps back, and widen your scope of view, you may be able to identify the patterns which are emerging.

That's all I've been trying to do. How can I reconcile what I'm seeing on Kickstarter, from all the startups, with what I'm hearing from my retailers and peers, and from my vendors, and reading in the industry numbers, etc? Do all those dots connect in some way, to form the outline of an image?

I think they do. I think the gold rush always has an end. No one is moving to Deadwood, 125 years later, to prospect. That party's been over a long while now.

It's not just about the "event horizon" of what Swatch is planning to do in 2020. That's just one indicator. I think there are many others to notice, and they all tell me I need to be focused like a laser beam on positioning myself and my business to get to 2021 and beyond.



mconlonx said:


> If I know the owner or a known agent of Brand A was personally involved in a takedown of Brand B, even if legit, I'd probably avoid Brand A product. I mean, if it was a legit complaint, I probably wouldn't be rushing out to buy Brand B out of some sense of support, either, but no one likes a snitch. It usually crops up on consumer end of things, anyway, sooner or simultaneously, which will sink Brand B just as good, and without Brand A having to act the dick.
> 
> A savvy Brand A player would have a stooge or sock acct to do the dirty work, besides -- if Brand A owner is seriously out there slagging on some other brand specifically to get a leg up in the industry, not only are they scumbag, but they are also not smart enough to deserve the business...
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I don't like entities who put others down to raise themselves up.


I feel the same way. I don't like snitches.

But at the same time, I also don't like to see bad behavior get concealed by corrupt networks devoted to protecting their own. I wonder if how I feel is how the good cop feels in the midst of all the bad cops. He doesn't like what they're doing, and isn't doing it himself, but isn't he somewhat guilty of being an accessory to their misdeeds if he remains silent?

I don't think there's a lot of upside in being the whistle-blower. When I've been in situations like this before, I've usually looked for the way out of the situation, rather than trying to change the situation. Call me a coward, but I'd rather be a living coward than a dead hero.

I doubt I'll change much in what I've been doing. I may continue to call BS on practices without putting a spotlight on the practitioners. I've been trimming down on my associations, and playing my cards a bit closer to the vest lately. My gut tells me a shoe is about to drop, so I've been keeping my feet under me.


----------



## watchnut69 (Dec 24, 2014)

Here's another ripoff Chris, the Antilles - https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...l?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.23.5a3c5935nUMR2s


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> The Chinese costs rising jives with what I learned on my visit there about a year ago - they're labor and manufacturing costs are going up, and it seems that it's led to some imbalances in their prices vs capacity. My guide predicted that most of the manufacturing would move to Vietnam or Thailand within the next 10 years.
> 
> What does that mean? Well, I think it means that the CHEAPEST manufacturing will move, but China will continue on, but will become (ironically), known for doing the better, higher-quality stuff.


Saw this in the bicycle industry, where Japan used to be cheap and lower quality. Then they started upping their game and Taiwan became the next low cost, low quality manufacturing mecca. Then China.

In the book industry, China used to be go-to for cheap 4c printing. But now their manufacturing/labor prices have risen to the point that it's getting economical to print domestically again, or other countries are on the rise -- work I used to send to China now goes to Singapore/Malaysia. Or Estonia, of all places. What's left behind when the low-budget business goes elsewhere, is higher quality manufacturing with a better trained and more experienced workforce. The good Seikos are still manufactured in Japan; the mass market Seikos are made in Malaysia or elsewhere...

This is not a new phenomenon and manufacturers within the watch industry ignore it at their peril.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Their stupidity/laziness is to your benefit -- you can bust them just like you did under Alibaba rules, and if you wanted to take it a step further, copyright law.
> 
> Just sayin': since you're not making an NTH with a 12hr bezel, someone was bound to fill the void...


Who said I wasn't making an NTH with a 12hr bezel?

The factory is based in mainland China. There's zero chance of getting them into court, in China or the USA, for using my photos without authorization.

Not directing this at you, only the crowd, generally - people love to invoke the courts and lawyers as a means to resolve industry disputes. They're simply not. If Rolex sees a brand based in the USA or somewhere in the developed world violating a patent or trademark, sure, they can sue, but otherwise, that's just not the way to go.

AliBaba, to their credit, actually has some muscle, and they aren't afraid to use it. If you lodge an official complaint about an Alibaba vendor, or just threaten to, the vendors will jump out of their socks to rectify the situation, rather than risk killing their golden goose. Filing the complaint with AB was the best course to get the factory's attention.

Beyond the factory, I really only care about the market. I did my part to get out in front of it.

But, and I kind of figured this would happen, of course there's now a wingnut on FB, who doesn't know who I am, but has gone way out on a limb...

"This watch does not have NTH logo on it. Are you sure they not the source factory for the watch? There's several well known micro brands that use Hong Kong manufacturers which ends back up from China. They order catalog watches and modify some small stuff. Especially the ones that produce under 20,000 pieces."

So, as I do, I called BS, and then...

"I didn't know you own the brand and didn't mean to offend. Truthfully is alot more then you think of them micro brand watches that use catalog watches. Not all of them just some of them. Especially when during start up times. They do not have the budget nor the manpower to make casings. Most manufacturers wouldn't even talk small micro brands without a minimum quantity order of 10,000 pieces. They would have to go through a 3rd party (broker) to find a factory to produce the item."

This joker supervises table games in some mid-west casino. He knows diddly squat about how things work in the industry. All that crap reads like noob internet rumor-mill stuff, and none of it is remotely accurate.

And, as I like to do, I challenged him to provide any real-world examples of his claims. Show me some well-known micros using catalog cases. He can't, of course. Even if a micro was using a catalog case, you couldn't prove that the micro didn't actually design the case in the manufacturer's catalog. That actually does happen, unfortunately.

People lose their minds when I actually ask them to back up their wild internet speculation with cumbersome facts and demonstrable evidence. Apparently you don't need that $hlt on the internet, if the story is good.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

watchnut69 said:


> Here's another ripoff Chris, the Antilles - https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...l?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.23.5a3c5935nUMR2s


Christ. I'm not getting any work at all done today...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Who said I wasn't making an NTH with a 12hr bezel?


Oooo!



docvail said:


> The factory is based in mainland China. There's zero chance of getting them into court, in China or the USA, for using my photos without authorization.
> 
> Not directing this at you, only the crowd, generally - people love to invoke the courts and lawyers as a means to resolve industry disputes. They're simply not. If Rolex sees a brand based in the USA or somewhere in the developed world violating a patent or trademark, sure, they can sue, but otherwise, that's just not the way to go.


No, of course not -- not worth the money it would take when that could be better spent developing the next new thing or running new production batches.

I'm just thinking back to Brompton bicycles, when they challenged a Chinese manufacturer pumping out fakes. There was nothing they could do about the design or expired patents for their unique take on folding bicycles, but the fakes manufacturer used their exact copy and some photos to market the fakes, so Brompton was able to shut them down over copyright infringement. They're not a huge company, but apparently thought it was worth it enough to pursue it through European courts. Didn't stop the manufacturer from producing the fakes, but did stop them from selling specifically where the majority of Brompton's market is, the EU and USA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Oooo!
> 
> No, of course not -- not worth the money it would take when that could be better spent developing the next new thing or running new production batches.
> 
> I'm just thinking back to Brompton bicycles, when they challenged a Chinese manufacturer pumping out fakes. There was nothing they could do about the design or expired patents for their unique take on folding bicycles, but the fakes manufacturer used their exact copy and some photos to market the fakes, so Brompton was able to shut them down over copyright infringement. They're not a huge company, but apparently thought it was worth it enough to pursue it through European courts. Didn't stop the manufacturer from producing the fakes, but did stop them from selling specifically where the majority of Brompton's market is, the EU and USA.


Not the same situation here, at all.

These guys aren't making DevilRays. They just stole my pics. See my explanatory post above.

It's copyright infringement, but there's nothing a US court can do to stop it, since AliBaba isn't a US website or entity, nor is the factory that stole the pics.

Ironically, if they did make a knockoff DevilRay, there'd be nothing I could do about that, either, because aesthetic designs for watches (how a watch looks) aren't protected under US IP law, only functional designs (how a watch works - and that would be patent law, not copyright law, which would apply to our images here).

I'd bet the Brampton case was NOT about copyright, but more likely was about patent. Both IP law areas, but not the same. I can enforce a patent in the US, if I had any patents, which I don't. I can stop a US business from infringing our copyright by using our pics. I can't stop a foreign entity from using our pics by way of US law.

Trust me, I know what I'm doing here. I've got two attorneys, and Google. There's nothing I don't know that I can't find out in 10 minutes of searching or phone calls. And most of what I need to know, I already know.

Take my word on it, all the forum talk about suing people and companies as the way to resolve these matters is entirely misguided. There's nothing a lawyer can do for me here.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Not the same situation here, at all.
> 
> These guys aren't making DevilRays. They just stole my pics. See my explanatory post above.
> 
> ...


I get that they are not manufacturing Devil Rays. You know your business obviously, but sure, I'll keep pushing:

A US court could issue an injunction against marketing a product in the US based on copyright infringment, as far as my understanding goes. And while they can't do anything against Alibaba that has any real meaning, why would Alibaba give a hoot about your claims to the photos in the first place if there wasn't some threat of international retribution? But that's really just me talking out my ass -- maybe it is actually calculated good business practice on their end having nothing to do with IP.

Far is I've researched it, Brompton could not make an issue over design, and any patents they might have had were decades-expired. Pretty sure it was actually copyright issues that sunk the fakes. Check it out if you have some spare time (ha!).

And, not having anything to do with some company pilfering your images, but just for s**ts and giggles where IP is concerned... More to the point and industry specific, check out this post over in the _Are Erika's Original straps worth the price?_ thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f222/do-erikas-straps-deserve-price-4644869-73.html#post48542407

This was news to me, too, that a design could be internationally registered as IP in any kind of enforceable manner. But somehow, EO has been shutting down fakes manufactured in Asia...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I get that they are not manufacturing Devil Rays. You know your business obviously, but sure, I'll keep pushing:
> 
> A US court could issue an injunction against marketing a product in the US based on *copyright infringment*, as far as my understanding goes. And while they can't do anything against Alibaba that has any real meaning, why would Alibaba give a hoot about your claims to the photos in the first place if there wasn't some threat of international retribution? But that's really just me talking out my ass -- maybe it is actually calculated good business practice on their end having nothing to do with IP.
> 
> ...


I don't really have time for this, but since my OCD has already kicked in...

Copyrights pertain to artistic works - songs, images, etc. They would apply to my photos, but not the designs themselves. IP law is very clear on this, trust me.

The design would be protected under patent law, but only if I patented some new way for a watch to WORK. You can't patent (or copyright) how a watch LOOKS.

Trademark protects my brand.

The images on AliBaba:

1. Don't use my brand, so there's no trademark infringement.

2. Don't make unauthorized use of any patent, so there's no patent infringement.

3. Aren't there in support of any company trying to sell any product into the USA, the company which posted the pictures isn't based in the USA, and the website, AliBaba, while seemingly interested in complying with IP law, has a lot more money to pay lawyers than I do, and so I'm not about to sue them because a factory posted pics they stole from my site on the AliBaba website.

What's my claim against AliBaba? That they somehow profited from a factory stealing my pics? What are my damages? How do I show damage to my business here? How do I prove they were culpable in any way? Why would they be any more responsible than any number of eBay sellers (or forum sellers) who steal images from my website (pics that do use the logo, and are meant to sell a product, from people who are in the USA)? Why would the pics on their site cause me more harm than the pics on this site?

AliBaba does, in fact, give a hoot about IP, or at least, they give some hoot. Why? I imagine it's because they make a ton of money as the globe's number one site for factories looking for outsourced manufacturing business, and so it's in their self-interest to keep the heat on themselves to a minimum. Maintaining at least the semblance of good corporate citizenship is in their best interest.

That's why they have a robust mechanism for reporting IP infringement.

Yes, you're talking out your a$$.

Don't care about some case I never heard of involving some company I never heard of (Brompton) in an industry I don't care about (bikes). Not looking it up. Don't care.

Erika's Originals - as far as I know, she's not based in the USA, is she? Doesn't matter. Don't care. Not clicking that link, or reading that thread. I can imagine it's a lot of wild speculation and half-educated guesses, just like most of the nonsense crap I see spewed on the forums and Facebook every day. So over it. I can't spend all day every day proving idiots are idiots.

Like I said, I've got two lawyers (one of whom is the top IP guy at the top IP firm in Philadelphia), and Google. If I need to know what I'm talking about (and I like to know), I can Google it, or pick up the phone and ask my attorney, which is exactly what I did when that whole Swatch v. Vortic thing came to my attention.

I found out in five minutes on the phone with an IP lawyer what five weeks of idiots arguing on the internet couldn't resolve.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

A few more paycheques, and I’ll be all in on that 10$ Weevilrey! 

Thanks Doc!




Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Christ. I'm not getting any work at all done today...


... and yet you're still here posting WoTs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

By Odin's beard!!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Not surprised that FB wingnuts who have no idea what actually goes into watches would scream about them being $20. They have no idea that a 9015 alone costs way more than that. 4X more to be specific if you want to buy one yourself. Here's a question though, are fashion brands like MVMT, Vincero etc actually buying off the shelf $10 Chinese watches, or is it a case of them having their design made by a Chinese factory which then spits out its own unbranded version for $10?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I can't decide how I feel about the Onda Mezzanotte and whether I actually want one or not. It's the first Squale Onda I've liked at all, but it's still kind of....odd.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I actually bought a MVMT many years back.. it only lasted me 6 months and cost me USD50. Now I have a Starking AM0184 and it cost me 40USD.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

EL_GEEk said:


> By Odin's beard!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


good seeing you around these parts again...let those great photos you're known for fly!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

JakeJD said:


> When I was recently in New York I walked past a Uniqlo store in midtown. I have seen the brand a few times, but I'm not a customer or terribly familiar. It was packed, so I lingered and looked in the windows for maybe 45 seconds, wondering what all the fuss was about.
> 
> Later that day I got an email from Uniqlo offering me a coupon good online or in-store. It addressed me by name.
> 
> ...


But you have an android phone....welcome to googles world, you are the product and you have been sold. Have a nice day.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> Their stupidity/laziness is to your benefit -- you can bust them just like you did under Alibaba rules, and if you wanted to take it a step further, copyright law.
> 
> Just sayin': since you're not making an NTH with a 12hr bezel, someone was bound to fill the void...


Say what? Witness the only NTH made so far with an OEM 12H bezel, the Catalina:


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Withdrawn


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Wow, I am just not communicating well...

I am not suggesting you take any legal action at all -- that's your business, and I respect it. Plus, when I was making things back in the early 90s, a mentor once said, "You can spend your time and money developing new things, refining existing things, or actually making things, or you can waste your time and money in legal pursuits. But until you get big enough that you can have someone do that for you without undue financial burden, you're only hurting yourself if you choose the latter."



docvail said:


> Copyrights pertain to artistic works - songs, images, etc. They would apply to my photos, but not the designs themselves. IP law is very clear on this, trust me. Don't need to trust you, I know this.
> 
> The design would be protected under patent law, but only if I patented some new way for a watch to WORK. You can't patent (or copyright) how a watch LOOKS. Also know this. But see below.*
> 
> ...


To sum up:
- Not telling you that you should do anything, and certainly not that you should go after anyone legally. Your business, not mine, and legal pursuits are largely time and money wasters.
- Only got into this conversation because IP law interests me, professionally and personally.
- If you are at all interested in international IP protection where design is concerned, WIPO resources are here:
general -- https://www.wipo.int/hague/en/
US as a signatory -- https://www.wipo.int/export/sites/www/treaties/en/documents/pdf/hague.pdf

I'm not even suggesting this is applicable to your business, like it is with EO MN straps -- if it was, I'd expect someone like Rolex to register their Sub design and go after all the homage manufacturers, right? Just that I had no idea designs could be protected, and it sounds like you didn't, either.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> There's something in the water right now, it seems.
> 
> It's only Wednesday. Just this week, I've heard of 4 brands going under. Two I know (the two smaller ones), two yet to be revealed (larger), though I've got a hunch about one of them.
> 
> Funny that Basel was just last month. Probably coincidental, but ironic timing nonetheless, given the insane expenses involved with that show.


Wonder who went under?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Same here...
Or at least, is there some place we should look for, to see who's gone under? Is it announced anywhere?


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Double post


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Who said I wasn't making an NTH with a 12hr bezel?


Just make a remake of the Phantom with that sweet full lume dial, DLC case, 60 click 12 hours bezel and a leather strap; but using the NTH case, and you'll be my best friend ever.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> I feel the same way. I don't like snitches.
> 
> But at the same time, I also don't like to see bad behavior get concealed by corrupt networks devoted to protecting their own. I wonder if how I feel is how the good cop feels in the midst of all the bad cops. He doesn't like what they're doing, and isn't doing it himself, but isn't he somewhat guilty of being an accessory to their misdeeds if he remains silent?
> 
> ...


It seems that the industry can benefit from a robust and independent press, where tips can be made anonymously and lead to "investigative reporting". I know.. it's probably too much to ask for.

From a intellectual standpoint, consumers should appreciate any light shed on bad actors because the net result should benefit/protect the consumers. However from a emotional perspective, I think a brand only stands to lose when/if it's involved in a take down of another brand, however legitimate.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> But you have an android phone....welcome to googles world, you are the product and you have been sold. Have a nice day.


It's the telecom (Verizon).

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

So I know this is blasphemy and potentially treasonous, but has anyone considered what the black Odin would look like with a bead blasted finish?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tc3 said:


> It seems that the industry can benefit from a robust and independent press, where tips can be made anonymously and lead to "investigative reporting". I know.. it's probably too much to ask for.
> 
> From a intellectual standpoint, consumers should appreciate any light shed on bad actors because the net result should benefit/protect the consumers. However from a emotional perspective, I think a brand only stands to lose when/if it's involved in a take down of another brand, however legitimate.


I'm friendly with several bloggers, and those I'm friendly with are all upstanding people. No compromised integrity, from what I've seen or can tell.

But, generally, and unfortunately, it's not in bloggers' interest to air the industry's dirty laundry. James Henderson does it a bit with Tempus Fugit, and he should be canonized for it, but he's one of the few, if not the only one who plays that role.

As for what consumers do, I've got mixed feelings. I think it's conditionally appropriate. If a company is consistently delivering a bad product or bad service, consumers sharing those stories online may be their best or only recourse, and I don't think they're in any way wrong for doing that, so long as they're being fair and accurate in their accounts.

But, unfortunately, there are too many people who are too quick to and too energetic in their efforts to damage a company's reputation, simply because they were displeased or disappointed, however slightly. I've had it happen to me a few times, and in each case, the consumer started out with unrealistic expectations, and was less than accurate in his account of what happened.

Some instances of bad business behavior I've seen involve disputed facts, leaving consumers to debate the merits of the company's story. I don't like to see guys arguing with each other on forums or facebook, knowing I have some behind-the-scenes knowledge which could settle some of the debate.

I've hesitated to insert myself into those discussions directly, for many, mostly obvious reasons, but I've also largely avoided giving people that info privately, except in the rare case where I know the consumer personally, and my advice will benefit them directly. I have a friend and customer who is, like many of you all, not overly discriminating when it comes to picking up watches at good prices on Kickstarter or in pre-order, but he seems a bit "unlucky" when it comes to buying the ones destined for problems.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Wow, I am just not communicating well...
> 
> I am not suggesting you take any legal action at all -- that's your business, and I respect it. Plus, when I was making things back in the early 90s, a mentor once said, "You can spend your time and money developing new things, refining existing things, or actually making things, or you can waste your time and money in legal pursuits. But until you get big enough that you can have someone do that for you without undue financial burden, you're only hurting yourself if you choose the latter."
> 
> ...


You're a good bloke, and I regret (once again), letting my obsession with accuracy drive me to the point of being pedantic. I'm sorry, and will thank you for understanding and forgiving me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> So I know this is blasphemy and potentially treasonous, but has anyone considered what the black Odin would look like with a bead blasted finish?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


If you mean anyone on my team, I'm sure we've discussed blasted finishes occasionally, and I seem to recall talking about them recently, though not in connection to the Odin, specifically.

For most all of the NTH Subs, I think the mix of brushed and polished surfaces is appropriate, to highlight their chamfered edges, to add visual texture, and to make them more versatile.

There's a new version we came up with recently, in my mind, more military-ish, and we discussed giving the bezel insert a blasted finish. The problem we always come back to is the fear they'll be scuffed, which will lead to a greater demand for replacements.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


>


Nothing wrong with the sound quality.

Chris always sound like that.

Ric


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> Nothing wrong with the sound quality.
> 
> Chris always sound like that.
> 
> Ric


True story:

Thankfully it was edited out, but at the very moment he asked me to start talking about the watches, I reached for one, and knocked an entire mug of hot tea into my lap.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Watchoss (Apr 6, 2019)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*

Hi All,
Just bought a Nacken modern blue with date, pre-owned off a member on here. I love look of these watches! 
I just have a question about the movement: I can hear it when I walk and when I shake it, the oscillating weight sounds like it keeps spinning for a long time (4-5 seconds) after i stop shaking it. Is this normal for this movement. I'm sorry if this question has been answered elsewhere. Thanks


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



Watchoss said:


> Hi All,
> Just bought a Nacken modern blue with date, pre-owned off a member on here. I love look of these watches!
> I just have a question about the movement: I can hear it when I walk and when I shake it, the oscillating weight sounds like it keeps spinning for a long time (4-5 seconds) after i stop shaking it. Is this normal for this movement. I'm sorry if this question has been answered elsewhere. Thanks


Since the Miyota 9015 rotor only winds in one direction, the other is free-spinning. It's perfectly normal and expected with this one.

Enjoy your Nacken!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

It's normal - the movement is free-spinning in one direction and winding-engaged in the other direction. In the free-spinning direction, there's no dampener/brake, so the rotor spins up pretty fast. 

On the upside, so far - aside from audibility - nobody has had any problems from this; seems like the ball bearings holding to rotor can handle this freespinning pretty well.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


>


This confirms that docvail is a bona-fide Mumblecore enthusiast. Every single video with doc has super-quiet audio


----------



## Watchoss (Apr 6, 2019)

*Re: Janis Trading/NTH/L&H/WTF is Doc thinking thread*



rpm1974 said:


> Since the Miyota 9015 rotor only winds in one direction, the other is free-spinning. It's perfectly normal and expected with this one.
> 
> Enjoy your Nacken!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Great, thanks very much for the reply! I will.


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

Does anybody else like the unidirectional 9015 rotor? I mean I've heard people say it sounds cheap but personally I like being able to hear it freewheeling. Sometimes when I put it on I have to give it a whirl. And when I'm frustrated it's like almost as satisfying to flick the wrist and get it going as it is to throw something (and much less irresponsible)


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

skuzapo said:


> Does anybody else like the unidirectional 9015 rotor? I mean I've heard people say it sounds cheap but personally I like being able to hear it freewheeling. Sometimes when I put it on I have to give it a whirl. And when I'm frustrated it's like almost as satisfying to flick the wrist and get it going as it is to throw something (and much less irresponsible)


Same here. I'll frequently give it a flick and try to get a good spin going. It's a little disappointing when I try this with a quiet rotor movement and don't get anything...


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

no rotor stories to share, so how about a blue odin sighting?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

skuzapo said:


> Does anybody else like the unidirectional 9015 rotor? I mean I've heard people say it sounds cheap but personally I like being able to hear it freewheeling. Sometimes when I put it on I have to give it a whirl. And when I'm frustrated it's like almost as satisfying to flick the wrist and get it going as it is to throw something (and much less irresponsible)


9015 is far and away my favorite Affordable automatic movement.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> If you mean anyone on my team, I'm sure we've discussed blasted finishes occasionally, and I seem to recall talking about them recently, though not in connection to the Odin, specifically.
> 
> For most all of the NTH Subs, I think the mix of brushed and polished surfaces is appropriate, to highlight their chamfered edges, to add visual texture, and to make them more versatile.
> 
> There's a new version we came up with recently, in my mind, more military-ish, and we discussed giving the bezel insert a blasted finish. The problem we always come back to is the fear they'll be scuffed, which will lead to a greater demand for replacements.


Wouldn't a bead blasted insert be less susceptible to scuffing than a brushed one? Not more? I thought that was sort of the point. I bought my SKX second hand prior to having it modded, and the high polished areas were scratched up pretty badly, especially the caseback. The bead blasting erased all of the scratches like magic, it looks completely uniform now.

Since SKX finishing is so mediocre in general, I think having it done is an improvement on that watch. The sub case is much better done than that, but if someone does want a blasted sub, it's not exactly difficult to just have it done on your own. Duarte at NEWW did my SKX, including a new steel chapter ring for all of like $50. Sadly that's not the case for DLC. I love the kind of "black mirror" look you can get by using DLC over polished steel, but having a watch DLC coated is _hideously_ expensive. Very few watchmakers do it at all, and if you can find one that does, it'll cost you like $900.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

skuzapo said:


> Does anybody else like the unidirectional 9015 rotor? I mean I've heard people say it sounds cheap but personally I like being able to hear it freewheeling. Sometimes when I put it on I have to give it a whirl. And when I'm frustrated it's like almost as satisfying to flick the wrist and get it going as it is to throw something (and much less irresponsible)


I'm pretty indifferent to the way it sounds, but getting that "Miyota wobble" going is kind of fun. If a movement is bi-directional I want it to be dead silent. My Seikos and ETAs are, but the STP 1-11s I've experienced are not, and the rotor noise they make is actively unpleasant.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> Wouldn't a bead blasted insert be less susceptible to scuffing than a brushed one? Not more? I thought that was sort of the point. I bought my SKX second hand prior to having it modded, and the high polished areas were scratched up pretty badly, especially the caseback. The bead blasting erased all of the scratches like magic, it looks completely uniform now.
> 
> Since SKX finishing is so mediocre in general, I think having it done is an improvement on that watch. The sub case is much better done than that, but if someone does want a blasted sub, it's not exactly difficult to just have it done on your own. Duarte at NEWW did my SKX, including a new steel chapter ring for all of like $50. Sadly that's not the case for DLC. I love the kind of "black mirror" look you can get by using DLC over polished steel, but having a watch DLC coated is _hideously_ expensive. Very few watchmakers do it at all, and if you can find one that does, it'll cost you like $900.


The problem with bead blasting isn't that it scuffs easily, it's that we mere mortals have no means of DIY fixing a scratch or scuff on a bead blasted surface. Polished areas we can buff, brushed areas we can brush. Bead-blasted we can... Live with it. Or pay Duarte $50 to refinish it, I suppose.


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)

tc3 said:


> It seems that the industry can benefit from a robust and independent press, where tips can be made anonymously and lead to "investigative reporting". I know.. it's probably too much to ask for.
> 
> From a intellectual standpoint, consumers should appreciate any light shed on bad actors because the net result should benefit/protect the consumers. However from a emotional perspective, I think a brand only stands to lose when/if it's involved in a take down of another brand, however legitimate.


Email [email protected].


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

JakeJD said:


> The problem with bead blasting isn't that it scuffs easily, it's that we mere mortals have no means of DIY fixing a scratch or scuff on a bead blasted surface. Polished areas we can buff, brushed areas we can brush. Bead-blasted we can... Live with it. Or pay Duarte $50 to refinish it, I suppose.


Fair enough. For what it's worth, my SKX is my beater, and the finish still looks pretty much flawless despite it getting smacked around pretty regularly. I somehow managed to scratch the _sapphire_ though, and it's on its way back to Duarte for a crystal swap.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

EL_GEEk said:


> By Odin's beard!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How many do I need to buy to rate proto's lol


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

MikeCfromLI said:


> How many do I need to buy to rate proto's lol


More than twelve, apparently


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> *Wouldn't a bead blasted insert be less susceptible to scuffing than a brushed one?* Not more? I thought that was sort of the point. I bought my SKX second hand prior to having it modded, and the high polished areas were scratched up pretty badly, especially the caseback. The bead blasting erased all of the scratches like magic, it looks completely uniform now.
> 
> Since SKX finishing is so mediocre in general, I think having it done is an improvement on that watch. The sub case is much better done than that, but if someone does want a blasted sub, it's not exactly difficult to just have it done on your own. Duarte at NEWW did my SKX, including a new steel chapter ring for all of like $50. Sadly that's not the case for DLC. I love the kind of "black mirror" look you can get by using DLC over polished steel, but having a watch DLC coated is _hideously_ expensive. Very few watchmakers do it at all, and if you can find one that does, it'll cost you like $900.


No.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> The problem with bead blasting isn't that it scuffs easily, it's that we mere mortals have no means of DIY fixing a scratch or scuff on a bead blasted surface. Polished areas we can buff, brushed areas we can brush. Bead-blasted we can... Live with it. Or pay Duarte $50 to refinish it, I suppose.


This.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeCfromLI said:


> How many do I need to buy to rate proto's lol





yankeexpress said:


> More than twelve, apparently


Steps:

1. Build a time machine.
2. Go back to 2013, become my friend and customer then.
3. Build an Instagram following of a few thousand people by 2018.
4. Take awesome, not just decent photos.

I've got a lot of customers. A lot of repeat customers. A lot of repeat customers who are friends. A lot of repeat customers who are friends, have been friends for years, take awesome photos, and have decent-sized Instagram followings, which benefits my business.

And even at that, I don't send them all prototypes, because we don't have time, because I have to send them to bloggers and video reviewers first.

The point isn't to give a guy a prototype for a week, because he'd enjoy it. Everyone would expect to get a turn with one. The point is to get a prototype to someone who's going to do something with it to benefit my business, AND get the prototype back without me having to ask a dozen times or become pen-pals.

(LOL)


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> Steps:
> 
> 1. Build a time machine.
> 2. Go back to 2013, become my friend and customer then.
> ...


Ummm it wasn't a serious question.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Beer, and watches!!!









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> More than twelve, apparently


Twelve?! And here I was wondering if it was reasonable to want more than a couple Subs. I guess I should stop fretting about that, get a new watch box for NTH and start filling it up.

I remember seeing photos of parts of your collection. Well done.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Dang, first double.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> Steps:
> 
> 1. Build a time machine.
> 2. Go back to 2013, become my friend and customer then.
> ...


Since facebook and its ilk like instagram are verboten to anybody who values at least the illusion of privacy, have to give up some stuff so as to not be completely sold out and owned by big tech.

Obviously really like the various sub iterations and enjoy owning them, comparing them and occasionally modding them. Perfectly happy to pay for them too, as long as I can find a discount.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Got my hands on a Santa Cruz. I originally dismissed this model completely. Glad something made me reconsider. I really like it! Looks nice at a glance. And if you have time to admire it, there is a lot to see. The dial texture, all of the interesting colors, light bouncing off of everything.

It is my first experience with the previous style bracelet. I like the newer clasp. I have zero issues with the older links and kind of like the extra thickness. The good news there for me is that the bracelet won't be a con to buying an older model.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



yankeexpress said:


> 9015 is far and away my favorite Affordable automatic movement.


What's that sterile one on the left? Hmmm. (Well, not sterile, but you know what I mean)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Taken at the PA meetup yesterday:


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Happy Sunday team.

I inherited this strap from one of our own when I bought a secondhand Santa Fe.

I flipped the Santa Fe but held on to the strap (I love it, and now the maker Martu more generally-affordable, vintage stylings, incredibly soft and comfortable leather, and slow shipping from South America).

I'm glad I held on to the strap as I think it looks equally great on the Nazario Suaro 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

odin blue!









have a great day


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

At least I held the proto...at the GTG










Stunning piece


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeCfromLI said:


> At least I held the proto...at the GTG
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was actually a reject proto.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> That was actually a reject proto.


Bezel play?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Bezel play?


There wasn't any.

I didn't like the lume color.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

blue skies, strap, and dial. great days.









...odin


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> What's that sterile one on the left? Hmmm. (Well, not sterile, but you know what I mean)


Bought it off eBay cheap with that sterile bezel and missing the OEM bracelet. Put it on a chinese Glidelock oyster and left the bezel as is. Guessing the seller wanted those parts for some other project.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



yankeexpress said:


> Bought it off eBay cheap with that sterile bezel and missing the OEM bracelet. Put it on a chinese Glidelock oyster and left the bezel as is. Guessing the seller wanted those parts for some other project.


Strange. You'd think he woulda just bought a bezel off doc.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

While I was browsing all the L&H/NTH watches at the G2G, what occurred to me as being the strength of Chris' watches is that Chris is always putting the watches first. He's always considering market demand, sure, but at the end of the day he's trying to make watches that are cool and well-built to the point where they sell themselves, and using those watches to build brand equity rather than using brand appeal to move watches. I'm not going to point fingers at other brands in this post, but I think we've seen our fair share of the latter even among some well-liked micros who have put more effort into strategy than the details of their watches. And if any of these microbrand watches are still going to be appealing to folks years down the road, it's because they were cool and well-built, not because they came up with a flashy marketing campaign and brand identity that briefly caught the attention of watch YouTubers and Instagrammers.

The Bahia, by the way, is really quite something, and if I was another man I'd sell off my Commander 300 and another watch or two to have some cash in reserve so that I could grab one if Chris makes another batch.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yeah. The Bahia is a less flashy model, compared to the others, but it also *just works*.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Agent Sands said:


> While I was browsing all the L&H/NTH watches at the G2G, what occurred to me as being the strength of Chris' watches is that Chris is always putting the watches first. He's always considering market demand, sure, but at the end of the day he's trying to make watches that are cool and well-built to the point where they sell themselves, and using those watches to build brand equity rather than using brand appeal to move watches. I'm not going to point fingers at other brands in this post, but I think we've seen our fair share of the latter even among some well-liked micros who have put more effort into strategy than the details of their watches. And if any of these microbrand watches are still going to be appealing to folks years down the road, it's because they were cool and well-built, not because they came up with a flashy marketing campaign and brand identity that briefly caught the attention of watch YouTubers and Instagrammers.
> 
> The Bahia, by the way, is really quite something, and if I was another man I'd sell off my Commander 300 and another watch or two to have some cash in reserve so that I could grab one if Chris makes another batch.


+1

Everytime I check out a new microbrand, go to their website and read stuff like "Our Story", "Timepiece", "Adventure", "Capture moments" bla bla bla, I immediately close the tab and say goodbye.

While its a nice to have after the company has any history, I don't want to buy stories, I look at for other values first.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

You mean y'all aren't buying NTH subs because of Doc's long stories-in-a-post responses?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Thanks for the kind words, gents.

My business growth coach, my chief marketing officer, John Keil from WatchGauge and I spent Thursday and Friday with five pre-launch microbrand owners in our Microbrand University workshop, then Rusty flew in from Louisiana for our GTG, and he's literally flying home right now.

So, I had a lot of discussions and time to think about my own business, and this industry, in the last four days. I'm very happy with the way things have been going, and am gratified to hear others like my team's work. I know Rusty and Aaron feel the same way, and that we all enjoy seeing people enjoying the watches we make.

Yesterday Rusty, my son, his friend and I went to the Philly comic-con. I think we met Rusty's brother from another mother...










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



tc3 said:


> It seems that the industry can benefit from a robust and independent press, where tips can be made anonymously and lead to "investigative reporting". I know.. it's probably too much to ask for.
> 
> From a intellectual standpoint, consumers should appreciate any light shed on bad actors because the net result should benefit/protect the consumers. However from a emotional perspective, I think a brand only stands to lose when/if it's involved in a take down of another brand, however legitimate.





docvail said:


> I'm friendly with several bloggers, and those I'm friendly with are all upstanding people. No compromised integrity, from what I've seen or can tell.
> 
> But, generally, and unfortunately, it's not in bloggers' interest to air the industry's dirty laundry. James Henderson does it a bit with Tempus Fugit, and he should be canonized for it, but he's one of the few, if not the only one who plays that role.


I honestly believe that it's impossible to have an "investigative" press in watches, just as in videogames. The press/brand relationship is too codependent and endogamic for it to work.

The press needs access to something to write something about. And the brands need press, but obviously only good press will make it, this isn't the show business and "I don't care what the newspapers say about me as long as they spell my name right." won't help, if that phrase ever worked to begin with.

This relationship creates a codependency, if the press gets too contrary and starts being perceived as too negative they will get fewer exclusive access, fewer "exclusive" content and sooner that later they'll find themselves as Tempus Fugit, receiving only the the standard and canned "send to all" emails. This can only work for James Henderson because he's a one man show and he doesn't give a ....., but and actual company cannot afford such luxury.

There's a middle ground I think, when a writer can report the facts and leaving the negatives almost as a footnote, and as neutered as possible: "using a tried and true formula", "taking no risks", "an evolution on the past model". But even that it's a bit rare on the media.

I for one I've just given up on finding actual investigative or "calling as it is" press on videogames and watches and rather treat them as somewhat glorified press releases.


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


>


Congrats on the weight loss Chris. It's really something when you and Rusty can both share the one shirt.

Cosy.


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

Looking good! Keep grinding!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Agent Sands said:


> While I was browsing all the L&H/NTH watches at the G2G, what occurred to me as being the strength of Chris' watches is that Chris is always putting the watches first. He's always considering market demand, sure, but at the end of the day he's trying to make watches that are cool and well-built to the point where they sell themselves, and using those watches to build brand equity rather than using brand appeal to move watches.


And this is the reason why Chris is the most popular brand in my collection: no fake history, no "affordable luxury", no posing, no ......... Just plain good .....


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

So today an order of erika's straps came (preparing for my aerospace gmt which based on reports has a bracelet that wont fit me) and I also bought a vintage strap and threw it on my nazario sauro for the moment. It sort of feels like sacrilege to take off the excellent oyster, even with the wonky clasp configuration of this particular iteration (I'm lazy and never bothered trying to fix the half link angle issue), but given the namesake of both it also feels so right.

Anyways, thank you so much for having drilled lugs  I always dread making strap changes but it really was totally painless.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> +1
> 
> Everytime I check out a new microbrand, go to their website and read stuff like "Our Story", "Timepiece", "Adventure", "Capture moments" bla bla bla, I immediately close the tab and say goodbye.
> 
> While its a nice to have after the company has any history, I don't want to buy stories, I look at for other values first.


If you haven't read the making of the Devil Ray series of posts on Doc's website, you really should make some time for it. I thought that was one of the more insightful and interesting details on how to design a watch that I've ever read. I actually bought the watch because I liked the story so much.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I know that's outside the scope of your post, but it's what I thought of when I first read it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pato_Lucas said:


> I honestly believe that it's impossible to have an "investigative" press in watches, just as in videogames. The press/brand relationship is too codependent and endogamic for it to work.
> 
> The press needs access to something to write something about. And the brands need press, but obviously only good press will make it, this isn't the show business and "I don't care what the newspapers say about me as long as they spell my name right." won't help, if that phrase ever worked to begin with.
> 
> ...


I think that's mostly true, with some rare (sadly, too rare) exceptions.

James Henderson of Tempus Fugit is the most obvious exception. I once emailed him to say I worried the big brands would put out a contract on his life, for airing the industry's dirty laundry in such a brazen way.

The thing about James is, for some reason, he truly gives zero f**ks. He's been behind the scenes, knows the wizard's secrets, and the big brands have always ignored small outlets like Tempus Fugit, so he feels underappreciated, and rightly so.

To be fair, while he's been consistently puritan in his refusal to do the pay-for-play thing with his blog, he's got a side-gig as a consultant to some brands, and he's been involved with some for-profit industry stuff, like the Hype show, so one could argue his role as a piss-broke/honest journalist might in some way be compromised by his other, more profit-oriented endeavors.

John Biggs, founder of Wrist Watch Review (and his whole team, including Patrick Kansa and forum regular Victor Marks) is another. John published the Worn & Wound "rate card" for editorial content, with a scathing indictment of such brazen pay-for-play schemes.

There again, I wrote John, to express my concern for his health, given that he'd just crossed one of the "made men" in the horology blog mafia. Like Henderson, Biggs appears to give zero f**ks, and said as much to me in his reply.

But, like Tempus Fugit, Wrist Watch Review isn't among the largest blogs with the most monthly views. What's clear is that honest journalism doesn't appear as lucrative as co-opted journalism.

Last one - people generally think the blogs only exist to publish positive, if not glowing reviews. But I know there are blogs which will refuse to review a watch if they know they wouldn't like it, or publish if they didn't like it.

The Time Bum is one of those who frequently refuses to accept review samples from brands when he knows he wouldn't be able to be honest in his praise. In that way, while his refusal to post a negative review might be seen as evidence that all reviews are positive, we need to understand that it is the lack of his positive review which is the criticism.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I got back from the hospital about 20 minutes before my last post.

One of the guys in our MBU workshop last week apparently got diverticulitis Friday night, while he was still here in Philly, and has been in the hospital ever since, which I didn't realize until my marketing guy Josh told me today. I thought he went in after he got back to California.

He wasn't checked out of the hotel when he called for an ambulance. Someone there had to pack up his bag for him. So I went over, got it, and took it to him in the hospital.

This is what happens when you try to digest too much information.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I got back from the hospital about 20 minutes before my last post.
> 
> One of the guys in our MBU workshop last week apparently got diverticulitis Friday night, while he was still here in Philly, and has been in the hospital ever since, which I didn't realize until my marketing guy Josh told me today. I thought he went in after he got back to California.
> 
> ...


those wot's will get 'em everytime, chris!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah. The Bahia is a less flashy model, compared to the others, but it also *just works*.


Agree, the Bahia is one of two NTH subs I initially passed on when seeing renders (the Nazario Sauro white dial being the other) and then when I saw real life photos, I realized I needed to jump fast to grab one as they were different enough to be interesting.

This photo by another WUS member woke me up to the Bahia:



On a BOR bracelet (watchgecko), this one shines.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> This photo from docvail woke me up to the Bahia...


FTFY.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



The Watcher said:


> those wot's will get 'em everytime, chris!


Wait until you've gotten to HEAR a wall of text in real-time. It's pretty epic.

On Thursday, I hit 'em with this: "Anyone here an accountant? No? Good. I'm about to give you a semester's worth of business accounting in five minutes. Brace yourselves..."

At one point last Friday, I got on a real roll, and spoke for 45 minutes straight...on a single breath.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Wait until you've gotten to HEAR a wall of text in real-time. It's pretty epic.
> 
> On Thursday, I hit 'em with this: "Anyone here an accountant? No? Good. I'm about to give you a semester's worth of business accounting in five minutes. Brace yourselves..."
> 
> At one point last Friday, I got on a real roll, and *spoke for 45 minutes straight...on a single breath*.


Sooo looking forward to June 20...........

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I am looking forward for end of the month. After my next 2 purchases, i'm joining WPAC until 2020.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah. The Bahia is a less flashy model, compared to the others, but it also *just works*.


In person (and in good photos), those red accents pop. It has a tacticool vibe I find kinda irresistible.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Got this baby from eBay from a guy that insist he's not the Chronopolis from these forums.

Is it possible that I got the last NOS Cerberus?, looking at it makes me feel a bit nostalgic about Lew & Huey, the designs weren't for everybody and that was perfectly fine, I've always respected a no f*cks given approto things.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> Got this baby from eBay from a guy that insist he's not the Chronopolis from these forums.
> 
> Is it possible that I got the last NOS Cerberus?, looking at it makes me feel a bit nostalgic about Lew & Huey, the designs weren't for everybody and that was perfectly fine, I've always respected a no f*cks given approto things.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In fact, he is NOT the Chronopolis from these forums. I know both of their real identities.

The @chronopolis from these forums is a reclusive billionaire who runs a charity helping young, impoverished children create pointless memes.

This is who you bought from - https://www.chronopolis.co.uk/.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> In fact, he is NOT the Chronopolis from these forums. I know both of their real identities.
> 
> The @chronopolis from these forums is a reclusive billionaire who runs a charity helping young, impoverished children create pointless memes.
> 
> This is who you bought from - https://www.chronopolis.co.uk/.


My sides! When a joke is so on point that you're a bit unsure if it's actually sarcasm.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captaincaveman79 (Feb 19, 2012)

The Azores seems to work on this Seiko-style waffle strap. Wait, hear me out before you dismiss the idea... See the waffle pattern on the 2 o'clock crown? And the 70s vibe seems to match the funky compressor style.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Toonces said:


> If you haven't read the making of the Devil Ray series of posts on Doc's website, you really should make some time for it. I thought that was one of the more insightful and interesting details on how to design a watch that I've ever read. I actually bought the watch because I liked the story so much.


I completely agree.
I felt like I was part of the process. I was new to WiS and to have a brand owner communicating with the very people he is making the watches for, well it blew me away.

The devil ray was my first "big" watch purchase. Add to that the Canadian dollar exchange....well I just hope my Wife doesn't investigate a bit more lol.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

captaincaveman79 said:


> The Azores seems to work on this Seiko-style waffle strap. Wait, hear me out before you dismiss the idea... See the waffle pattern on the 2 o'clock crown? And the 70s vibe seems to match the funky compressor style.


that does look quite nice.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Toonces said:


> If you haven't read the making of the Devil Ray series of posts on Doc's website, you really should make some time for it. I thought that was one of the more insightful and interesting details on how to design a watch that I've ever read. I actually bought the watch because I liked the story so much.


Concurred re: that blog post and excellence of the watch. For me, it fits the "hearty, manly dive watch" slot in my box perfectly.



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



yankeexpress said:


> Agree, the Bahia is one of two NTH subs I initially passed on when seeing renders (the Nazario Sauro white dial being the other) and then when I saw real life photos, I realized I needed to jump fast to grab one as they were different enough to be interesting.
> 
> This photo by another WUS member woke me up to the Bahia:
> 
> ...


(Sorry, on phone, so too lazy to try to consolidate three posts into one.)

While I've been rocking the Nazario Sauro on other straps for a while, I do like to think that I was one of the first to confirm that it rocks on a WatchGecko BoR (imperfect end link pairing notwithstanding).

My favorite shots of the combo (definitely reposts):




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Wait until you've gotten to HEAR a wall of text in real-time. It's pretty epic.
> 
> On Thursday, I hit 'em with this: "Anyone here an accountant? No? Good. I'm about to give you a semester's worth of business accounting in five minutes. Brace yourselves..."
> 
> At one point last Friday, I got on a real roll, and spoke for 45 minutes straight...on a single breath.


My poor students have to suffer through my own tendency to do this. They smirk whenever I give them a (always way underestimated) time estimate about an off-the-cuff tangent I'm about to go down. Obviously there's lots of evidence in this thread and elsewhere that you have a professorial personality 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

(Last wall of posts.)

Doc,

I randomly noticed today that you’ve never done a red bezel Sub (e.g., on a Nacken). Too obviously an homage? View red bezels as a passing fad? Just not into them? 

Just curious. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

ck2k01 said:


> (Last wall of posts.)
> 
> Doc,
> 
> ...






docvail said:


> There are no red bezels coming from NTH, ever. Everyone can stop asking. There's no such thing as red PVD from my suppliers.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JakeJD said:


>


Grazie. Figured we had talked about it before. I suppose the search box is a virtue.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This^^^

No red PVD. Also no red ceramic from my suppliers, or at least, not the right red, even if I wanted to do a ceramic bezel, and for the time being, I don't.



ck2k01 said:


> (Last wall of posts.)
> 
> Doc,
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> My poor students have to suffer through my own tendency to do this. They smirk whenever I give them a (always way underestimated) time estimate about an off-the-cuff tangent I'm about to go down. Obviously there's lots of evidence in this thread and elsewhere that you have a professorial personality
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


John Keil and I went out drinking with some of the guys from the workshop on Friday night. We were both riding an emotional high from the previous two days. I think we both realized we like being "on stage", and telling our war-stories directly to guys interested in being in this business.

It's a different experience when you hear someone talk, compared to reading what they have to say. When I get on a roll, I talk fast, so it doesn't seem like I'm talking as long, and usually, when I'm telling a story, I know there's a punchline coming, so I'm working toward it. You don't get that same sense of accelerating pace reading a wall-of-text.

It was an awesome workshop. I think it exceeded ALL our expectations. I'm actually about to go meet with the rest of our coaching team, to discuss the next one, and improvements we can make.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> While I've been rocking the Nazario Sauro on other straps for a while, I do like to think that I was one of the first to confirm that it rocks on a WatchGecko BoR (imperfect end link pairing notwithstanding).


You inspired me to put the WG BOR on my pre-Nazario, and it hasn't left it since. It makes for a great combination of vintage styling and modern manufacturing quality! I'm thinking about moving it to my Nazario 1st gen, though.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MaxIcon said:


> You inspired me to put the WG BOR on my pre-Nazario, and it hasn't left it since. It makes for a great combination of vintage styling and modern manufacturing quality! I'm thinking about moving it to my Nazario 1st gen, though.
> 
> View attachment 14068377


Haven't seen a photo of the prototype in a while-very, very cool piece! While it goes without saying, definitely hang on to that one.

And glad to hear I contributed to its current pairing 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

yankeexpress said:


> On a BOR bracelet (watchgecko), this one shines.


These are the endlinks that you should use:
https://www.watchgecko.com/curved-e...-by-geckota-designed-for-rolex-submariner.php

Trust me, I know. (older photo


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Actually, come to think of it, here's a quick retrospective. Reverse-chronological.

Sleeper hit:








Cold steel:








The miami style:








The actually best sub:








The flash-in-the-pan (aka too-blue):








The first sub:








The ancestor:








It'd be really difficult to order these watches in any best-worst scale, though - through all these changes - some small things are known:

- The black dlc-like bezel insert rocks. Best bezel insert in the game, and best among the subs.
- no-15-min-markers ftw. Bezel symmetry is good.
- Rect. date at 6 rocks.
- Smaller / more slender handsets rock. The dial is small-diameter, so hands must be proportional.
- The subs case is best-in-the-game. Not spec-wise, but looks-wise.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Agent Sands said:


> The Bahia, by the way, is really quite something, and if I was another man I'd sell off my Commander 300 and another watch or two to have some cash in reserve so that I could grab one if Chris makes another batch.


You're welcome 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Actually, come to think of it, here's a quick retrospective. Reverse-chronological.
> 
> Sleeper hit:
> [/ATTACH=CONFIG]14068607[/ATTACH]
> ...


I think I've owned 5 Subs to date myself. I see why Doc is thus doubling down on them!

My Vintage Blue Nacken is still my fav.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Haven't seen a photo of the prototype in a while-very, very cool piece! While it goes without saying, definitely hang on to that one.
> 
> And glad to hear I contributed to its current pairing
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just to clarify, that wasn't "the" prototype. It was a frankenmod assembled by @jelliottz (hence, "jellimod"), using a prototype case, and aftermarket hands and dial.

John (jelli) hand-painted the red on the bezel, which has/had a different finish than the actual Nazario. The dial and hands are very different.

I think that was one of the jellimods John put together for us to auction off, but I said he could keep one, and I think that was it, but then he sold it later on.

It's truly a one-of-a-kind, one-off piece.


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> It's truly a one-of-a-kind, one-off piece.


I do that from time to time.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

%99 of people do not notice or care whats on your wrist. All that matters is that YOU like what you see.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

As long as we're comparing the Subs' versions to each other, I think my personal faves are:

Scorpène Black - I loves me a big-number pilot with a diver's bezel, copperplate font, and ridonkulous lume. Matte black and white goes with everything.

Näcken Renegade - Blue-black fade, vertically-brushed dial, killer lume. If I need just ONE version to show someone as an example of what NTH is all about, that's the one.

Barracuda Brown - It matches almost nothing I wear. But it's gorgeous, and has a funky '70's vibe I dig, a lot. 

The Näcken Modern Blue and Modern Black get honorable mention. The Modern Blue I still own gets decent wrist time (compared to the others). And even though I sold the modern black proto I had, within a week I was looking at the Pelagos and thinking I should snag one of the Modern Blacks we've got in production.

I honestly have no clue how I feel about the Barracuda Vintage Black. I haven't had more than three seconds to look at one in person. They've all been sold before I could snag one for my own collection. I had one set aside from the inbound batch, but Keil wanted it for his store, so I'll have to wait and hope I can take one from the next batch. 

I just got rid of my Näcken Vintage Blue prototype. John Keil brought his friend to help us with the workshop. I wasn't able to pay him very much, and so I got drunk and just gave it to him, right off my wrist. He's a good egg. He'll take care of it. Or not. I don't meddle, or live in the past. 

I can't make up my mind what I want to do with the Näcken Vintage Black prototype, or the Scorpène Blue I have. The Vintage Black doesn't get worn much, and I think I got the lust for the Scorp Blue out of my system.

My collection is now at 17 pieces, after buying Rusty's Citizen Nighthawk this past weekend, for reasons I now can't remember. There's no reason why I should own so many, when most of them get worn no more than a few times per year.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

Does the vintage black prototype have that kind of coffee colored tropical bezel? I love that one in photos.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



tim_herremans said:


> Does the vintage black prototype have that kind of coffee colored tropical bezel? I love that one in photos.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Protos have canary yellow pips on the bezel. Production pieces had pips with the same color lume as the rest of the bezel.

The inserts can look different colors depending on the light. Unless you dump a lot of creamer in your coffee, I'd say the brownish look they sometimes have is more chai latté.










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I saw the watch that I presume is the watch the Bahia is based on; I didn't know those red numbers on the inside of the white ones was a thing on another watch. I can't remember what brand it was, but it just goes to show that I'm completely out of my league when it comes to inspirations and homages.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Doc, I'd be curious to hear about your daily wearers. One would think that as the owner of a watch company you'd be making and wearing your dream watch, but I know it's never quite as simple as that.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

That nacken vintage blue story...&#55357;&#56834; Someone tried to give me a watch off his wrist once. It was one of the oddest experiences of my life. I believe it was a Michael Kors &#55358;&#56596;


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Toonces said:


> I saw the watch that I presume is the watch the Bahia is based on; I didn't know those red numbers on the inside of the white ones was a thing on another watch. I can't remember what brand it was, but it just goes to show that I'm completely out of my league when it comes to inspirations and homages.


It's a homage to Heuer Monnin 844 from 1979


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I saw the watch that I presume is the watch the Bahia is based on; I didn't know those red numbers on the inside of the white ones was a thing on another watch. I can't remember what brand it was, but it just goes to show that I'm completely out of my league when it comes to inspirations and homages.


Lemme help with that...










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

So this happened yesterday...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Doc, I'd be curious to hear about your daily wearers. One would think that as the owner of a watch company you'd be making and wearing your dream watch, but I know it's never quite as simple as that.


I work from home, rarely leave the house, and don't wear a watch while I'm working. "Daily wearers" doesn't apply in my case.

Almost every watch we make is an attempt to make my dream watch. But I've got raging ADHD, so the dreams change more often than underwear, and I'm never entirely satisfied, so there's almost always more motivation to make something new.

My inability to be satisfied with and enjoy anything is the driving force behind this company's product development.

You're welcome.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



92gli said:


> That nacken vintage blue story...&#55357;&#56834; Someone tried to give me a watch off his wrist once. It was one of the oddest experiences of my life. I believe it was a Michael Kors &#55358;&#56596;


Hah!

"Mmmmmyeah, don't do me no favors, guy...".










Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Thanks for the pic of the Heuer. I wish I could remember where, or in what context, I saw it. But when I saw it, I thought Hey that looks like Doc's watch! LOL.

I guess it would have been pretty expensive, but it would have been really cool if you kept one of every model watch you made in a display case. A guy like you must have a man cave for that. I'm thinking like a bookcase with glass doors and those little jewelry store lights that make everything look so sparkly.

All I've got are old paperbacks and badly wrinkled issues of Playboy.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Thanks for the pic of the Heuer. I wish I could remember where, or in what context, I saw it. But when I saw it, I thought Hey that looks like Doc's watch! LOL.
> 
> I guess it would have been pretty expensive, but it would have been really cool if you kept one of every model watch you made in a display case. A guy like you must have a man cave for that. I'm thinking like a bookcase with glass doors and those little jewelry store lights that make everything look so sparkly.
> 
> All I've got are old paperbacks and badly wrinkled issues of Playboy.


No man cave yet.

I'm not sentimental like that, and don't need or want a physical altar to my ego.

Call me superstitious, but I don't count myself a winner while I'm still playing cards. That sort of thing can anger the poker gods, and I imagine the watch gods are just as vengeful.

My sense of satisfaction in what I do comes from seeing others enjoying the work product. My grandfathers both worked in construction. Their names aren't etched on the buildings. I know they built them, and that's enough for me.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I just tried to count how many watches I'd have if I kept one of each version of each model. Not even counting date/no-date options, it would be over 60, maybe over 70. 

I could easily get by with 6-7 watches in my collection. 

I was never much of a collector of anything. It's just not how I'm wired. I like getting the new ones in, but at this point, most of them are "just a watch" to me. I keep those versions I like best, but I can't wear them all often enough to want them long term, so eventually most get moved on.


Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

92gli said:


> That nacken vintage blue story...�� Someone tried to give me a watch off his wrist once. It was one of the oddest experiences of my life. I believe it was a Michael Kors ��


I had it happen once. Except (a) it was more of a try-before-you-buy scenario, where I'd pay him later if I decided to keep it, and (b) it turned out to be a fake!


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

liquidtension said:


> So this happened yesterday...
> 
> View attachment 14069675


Is that the Squale strap? I found it pretty expensive. How do you like it?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Forever8895 said:


> Is that the Squale strap? I found it pretty expensive. How do you like it?


Yup that's the squale strap, it's an impulse buy. I quite like it especially how it tappers down. But I think I prefer the tropic rubber strap from gecko watches, although the look is bit different.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> ............... and I think I got the lust for the Scorp Blue out of my system.


I got lust that ain't going anywhere, anytime soon, have total system-wide lusting for this baby; a truckload of perfection or what???









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

The first pic I took at the GTG in Philly this weekend was this one:










Yep. It's a good'n.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Interesting to see the range in opinions as to favorite Subs.

While the two I own are my favorite, it's interesting to think about which of the Subs is my third favorite, for if I were to pick up another one.

1. Vintage Nacken Blue
2. Nazario Sauro and Nazario (tied)
3. ?
4. ?
5. ?

The guilt relief dials have been getting a lot of buzz. So maybe a BSH? Or a Barracuda Vintage Black?

I've always thought the Holland was pretty cool looking. Same for the Nacken Vintage Black. So we can throw those in at the 4 and 5 spots, respectively.

My #1 today:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Don't even own one, but top 3:

1. Scorpene Black
2. Nacken Vintage White
3. Catalina

Dream NTH sub: Scorpene Black, with date and 12 hr bezel.

Scorpene black with date due back in stock late May, from what online retail partners are saying, and I know there's one in f29 right now...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

With all the Scorpene talk I had to wear mine today









%99 of people do not notice or care whats on your wrist. All that matters is that YOU like what you see.


----------



## Amuthini (Sep 15, 2011)

docvail said:


> I just tried to count how many watches I'd have if I kept one of each version of each model. Not even counting date/no-date options, it would be over 60, maybe over 70.
> 
> I could easily get by with 6-7 watches in my collection.
> 
> ...


what is your favourite watch that you created, model and variant


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

%99 of people do not notice or care whats on your wrist. All that matters is that YOU like what you see.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Amuthini said:


> what is your favourite watch that you created, model and variant


I don't have a favorite.

If you mean "favorite to wear" - I end up wearing one of a handful of Subs most often, because they're so wearable - lightweight and comfortable. I have six of them now, but that number could as easily be 3 or 8. I posted my favorite three within the last couple days. I like those three about the same.

If you mean "favorite design" - I think the DevilRay is my team's best design work, overall, but I'm sentimental about the Cerberus and Orthos, because those were the only two I designed from scratch, by myself, and are/were the best examples of my personal design sensibilities. I'm proud of my team for the DevilRay, I'm proud of myself for the Cerb and Orthos.

I have 3 DevilRays - Black, White, and Deep Six. I like them all about the same.

I have 1 Orthos, the red/gray Orthos 1, and only because my son wants it. I'd have sold it otherwise, for lack of wrist-time. I've got 2 Cerbs, and one, the gray/red is for sale. The other is the white, but modded with the orange rehaut from the blue. It's not going anywhere.

With all the Lew & Huey models, including the Cerb and Orthos, there are little things I wish I could go back and change. Nothing huge/major, but things I think could have been better, had I known then what I know now.

I don't feel that way about the NTH Models, but for a very small number of very small nitpicks on some of the first 8 Subs versions we produced. It took us until the second and subsequent batches to dial in and correct those little things.

There's nothing I'd change about the Tropics or DevilRay, or any of the Subs we're making now. The only thing I can think of that I wasn't thrilled with is the expansion clasp on the Tropics and DevilRay, because it's chunky.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> If you mean "favorite design" - I think the DevilRay is my team's best design work, overall, but I'm sentimental about the Cerberus and Orthos, because those were the only two I designed from scratch, by myself, and are/were the best examples of my personal design sensibilities. I'm proud of my team for the DevilRay, I'm proud of myself for the Cerb and Orthos.
> 
> I have 3 DevilRays - Black, White, and Deep Six. I like them all about the same.
> 
> There's nothing I'd change about the Tropics or DevilRay, or any of the Subs we're making now. The only thing I can think of that I wasn't thrilled with is the expansion clasp on the Tropics and DevilRay, because it's chunky.


The DevilRay be like:





































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> This^^^
> 
> No red PVD. Also no red ceramic from my suppliers, or at least, not the right red, even if I wanted to do a ceramic bezel, and for the time being, I don't.


For what it's worth, there isn't even a real red ceramic bezel even from Rolex. Under most lights that bezel looks pink/purple and only under the right angle/light it passes as red.

Funnily enough, Tag Heuer seems to be able to do a better red ceramic bezel.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Will doc be making more Carolina?


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

liquidtension said:


> Will doc be making more Carolina?


Next model will be Martha, because everyone's mother's name is ...


----------



## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



liquidtension said:


> Will doc be making more Carolina?


No, the Carolina was a collaboration with the BSH group. The closest right now is the Vintage Black Barracuda I believe.

IG @porterrrrrr


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Porterjrm said:


> liquidtension said:
> 
> 
> > Will doc be making more Carolina?
> ...


Oh wow ok. Barracuda it is

Oh wow. Ok


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Seikogi said:


> Next model will be Martha, because everyone's mother's name is ...


Zona.. but I have traced her Family to the 1500's.

I know there was a Martha somewhere down the line.

What is yours?

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> For what it's worth, there isn't even a real red ceramic bezel even from Rolex. Under most lights that bezel looks pink/purple and only under the right angle/light it passes as red.
> 
> Funnily enough, Tag Heuer seems to be able to do a better red ceramic bezel.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Chris Ward Trident:









Looks red enough to me. It's been a while since I've seen one in person, but when I did, I don't remember thinking that it didn't look "red".

I don't know where they get their ceramic. My suppliers don't have that color. The closest thing they have is a reddish brown, like the bezel on the Rolex Daytona Platinum.









Doesn't matter, because I'm not going to make a watch with a ceramic bezel, because I don't want to. Our steel inserts are nigh indestructible.

At 2250 watches made with those inserts (NTH Subs, plus L&H Phantom), we've replaced maybe five inserts. Two or three of those were barely scuffed, such that a lot of people wouldn't even have noticed the damage or bothered with a replacement. One of those was an insert we'd already replaced, but the replacement wasn't perfectly made (so, it wasn't a situation where the insert was damaged in some way).

The insert that one replaced was dropped from a car. I kept that insert, just so I can show people the worst-case, and that it isn't all that bad. It's got some dimples in it. The metal under the DLC isn't even showing through.

The replace for damage rate is about 0.2%, or less. Other brands have started making more steel inserts, and I haven't noticed any uptick in the number of "____ micro told me it would be $[insert offensively large number] to replace my damaged bezel" threads, like the ones we've seen about ceramic or sapphire inserts.

How many inserts would I have to replace if we used ceramic? Dunno, but I'm pretty sure I've subjected my Scorpene to abuse which would have chipped or shattered a ceramic bezel (bracelet screw backed out, watch went flying across a bunch of paver stones), and I swear it still looks pristine. I'll take steel's higher ability to absorb damage (because it's softer) over ceramic's higher ability to resist scratches (because it's more brittle).

It's not just about the causes, consequences, and rate of damage, or the cost increase (which I think would make it a deal-killer, in any event).

According to my OEM, for some reason, we can't brush a ceramic bezel if we also want to lume the bezel. Apparently we can only do glossy finishes, or maybe also matte, and I don't really like either. I hate shiny bezels, and matte ceramic has a chalkboard look that also looks like arse.

And, before someone shows me the lumed/brushed ceramic bezel insert, check out the way the lume started to get discolored on the ceramic bezel inserts on the Hexa Osprey (and others), or the way the lume fell right the f**k out of the ceramic inserts on the Deaumar Ensign (and others).

Can you all imagine how I'd lose my mind if I had to deal with that stuff, all because I went against my own instincts, and did a ceramic bezel insert, because the people demanded it?

Nope. Don't need that $hlt in my life. I ain't fixing what ain't broken.

Steel is the deal. Its virtues are tattooed on my heart. I want to marry steel, and have steel's babies.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Matte ceramic inserts suck. Seen and handled more than one watch with those, and it looks like crummy plastic.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> According to my OEM, for some reason, we can't brush a ceramic bezel if we also want to lume the bezel. Apparently we can only do glossy finishes, or maybe also matte, and I don't really like either. I hate shiny bezels, and matte ceramic has a chalkboard look that also looks like arse.





X2-Elijah said:


> Matte ceramic inserts suck. Seen and handled more than one watch with those, and it looks like crummy plastic.


Talking purely aesthetically, I love the matte ceramic look on my Nodus Avalons.

So count me on team "chalk."

Different strokes for different folks I suppose 

EDIT: And to keeps Doc's comparisons going, opinions are like arseholes-everyone has one and they all stink.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

...


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Seikogi said:


> Next model will be Martha, because everyone's mother's name is ...


If you know the backstory then this is an incredibly crass, insensitive comment.

If you don't, perhaps you should refrain from commenting on things you know nothing about.


----------



## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

Jtragic said:


> If you know the backstory then this is an incredibly crass, insensitive comment.
> 
> If you don't, perhaps you should refrain from commenting on things you know nothing about.


+1


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Jtragic said:


> If you know the backstory then this is an incredibly crass, insensitive comment.
> 
> If you don't, perhaps you should refrain from commenting on things you know nothing about.


I dare say a lot of us have no idea what you are talking about. Is docvail's mom named Carolina or something? Or, err, Martha? I'm lost here.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> I dare say a lot of us have no idea what you are talking about. Is docvail's mom named Carolina or something? Or, err, Martha? I'm lost here.


My mom is named neither.

I have no idea what the backstory is. I assumed it had something to do with the Batman v Superman thing, when they realized both their moms were named "Martha".


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

JakeJD said:


> I dare say a lot of us have no idea what you are talking about. Is docvail's mom named Carolina or something? Or, err, Martha? I'm lost here.


Same here. Closest reference Google could come up with was some lame scene in a superhero movie... and a Deadpool comic book poking fun at it.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> My mom is named neither.
> 
> I have no idea what the backstory is. I assumed it had something to do with the Batman v Superman thing, when they realized both their moms were named "Martha".


+1 that's it. I thought the DC universe is even a bigger thing in the US than Europe... like 6 pages back there was a picture @ comic con with rusty & doc.

very often I happen to not get "inside" jokes and references but then again, I am not that salty to assume the person who wrote that meant to mentally harm somebody.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> My mom is named neither.
> 
> I have no idea what the backstory is. I assumed it had something to do with the Batman v Superman thing, when they realized both their moms were named "Martha".


Ah, I missed that one, but I do vaguely remember some blabber about that now that you mention it.

So, is the reference "crass" because the story behind both of their moms being named Martha is tragic in some way (other than comic book tragic, I guess)?

We're way off the WUS reservation here, sorry, I'm just intrigued and befuddled about an accusation that anyone is being "crass" and "insensitive" about a Superman movie...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Chronopolis has been called worse so I wouldn't worry about it.



JakeJD said:


> Ah, I missed that one, but I do vaguely remember some blabber about that now that you mention it.
> 
> So, is the reference "crass" because the story behind both of their moms being named Martha is tragic in some way (other than comic book tragic, I guess)?
> 
> We're way off the WUS reservation here, sorry, I'm just intrigued and befuddled about an accusation of being "crass" and "insensitive" about a Superman movie...


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

JakeJD said:


> I dare say a lot of us have no idea what you are talking about. Is docvail's mom named Carolina or something? Or, err, Martha? I'm lost here.


Unless you were involved in the creation of the LE Carolina, I wouldn't expect that you would understand the significance behind the name.

As such, flip comments about the name do not sit well with some.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Jtragic said:


> Unless you were involved in the creation of the LE Carolina, I wouldn't expect that you would understand the significance behind the name.
> 
> As such, flip comments about the name do not sit well with some.


Wait, so you were offended that he suggested calling the next one something other than Carolina? It had nothing to do with the stupid movie joke?

I'm no less confused.

I don't mean to be annoying. I can stay confused. It's that kind of day for me anyway...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*I have no idea about the backstory here...



Jtragic said:


> If you know the backstory then this is an incredibly crass, insensitive comment.
> 
> If you don't, perhaps you should refrain from commenting on things you know nothing about.


If people refrained from commenting on things they know nothing about, the internet would die.



Jtragic said:


> Unless you were involved in the creation of the LE Carolina, I wouldn't expect that you would understand the significance behind the name.
> 
> As such, flip comments about the name do not sit well with some.


Maybe so. But if the Carolina was an actual LE, wouldn't the next model necessarily have to be named something different...?


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Nvm.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

I have no idea what's going on in this thread right now or why people's feelings are hurt, but the "Martha" moment in BATMAN V. SUPERMAN deserves scornful mockery.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Talking purely aesthetically, I love the matte ceramic look on my Nodus Avalons.
> 
> So count me on team "chalk."
> 
> ...


I'd thought I'd responded to this earlier, but apparently forum software decided to take a post back, in trade for the many duplicate posts we've been given.

Anyhoo..

I actually think the matte ceramic bezels on those Avalons look great. I gotta tip my hat to Wes and Cullen for doing all the legwork to source each and every component. I hope they don't have any of the problems others have had.

There's one model, from one brand, which has a blasted black ceramic bezel. I saw it in person, and the first thing I thought of was that it looked like a used chalkboard. Not really all that black, and just a bland, washed out sort of look to it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> I have no idea what's going on in this thread right now or why people's feelings are hurt, but the "Martha" moment in BATMAN V. SUPERMAN deserves scornful mockery.


Worst. plot. device. ever.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jtragic said:


> Unless you were involved in the creation of the LE Carolina, I wouldn't expect that you would understand the significance behind the name.
> 
> As such, flip comments about the name do not sit well with some.


To be fair to all, and with sincere respect, I believe the original comment had nothing to do with the Carolina project, or the stories of anyone involved.

As I and others assumed, it appears the comment was about the Superman v Batman thing, how both of their moms were named Martha, and any coincidental resemblance to those behind the Carolina project was just that - purely coincidental.

While the Carolina may have been named such because of a specific story, we can't expect everyone to know the story, or the related stories behind it. To most, it's just a watch, and it's just a name, and there's no reason for them to think that either are due any reverence.

I'd suggest this was a confluence of innocent conversation and unfortunate coincidence, nothing more, and no harm was meant.


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*










Sorry for the broken image. I tried to post a Martha meme but apparently I have no idea what I am doing. I would describe it in a WOT but it wouldn't be as funny. Carry on.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

docvail said:


> Chris Ward Trident:
> 
> Can you all imagine how I'd lose my mind if I had to deal with that stuff, all because I went against my own instincts, and did a ceramic bezel insert, because the people demanded it?
> 
> bies.


But didn't you once said if someone wants a blue car, don't sell them a red car?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

In natural light, it is kinda blood red












Inside it is a little brighter shade of red


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DanBYU said:


> But didn't you once said if someone wants a blue car, don't sell them a red car?


I say a lot of $hlt. I don't keep a record of it all.

If you can't deliver and service a blue car, don't sell a blue car. If you can only deliver and service a red car, then sell, deliver, and service red cars.

I don't commit to deliver what I can't effectively support. I think that's a good rule. Some brands sell what they can't support, and customers get stuck with bad product.

If you want something I won't sell, buy it from someone else. You pays your money, and you takes your chances.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



yankeexpress said:


> In natural light, it is kinda blood red
> 
> [/img]http://s5.postimg.cc/xyspc5rzb/image.jpg[/img]
> 
> ...


Grr. I want one. I don't need one (I rarely wear my one red bezeled watch as it is). But I want one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Wrt ceramic bezels - here's an example of a ceramic bezel that (partly in photos, completely irl) did not look good. And it's not due to colour, it's due to the surface finishing. As said, just looks like plastic.


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

Only the third time I have worn the Commander 300 since June 2016 and I have managed to bump the bezel against the granite worktop, wonder if I can get a replacement bezel?


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I think the matte ceramic bezel on this guy looks and feels really nice. Love the overall package. _38mm_ of goodness.

(By the way, is Christopher Ward considered a micro brand?)

The Sub bezels are great. Perhaps my next move should be to get a fully indexed version.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

BigEd said:


> Only the third time I have worn the Commander 300 since June 2016 and I have managed to bump the bezel against the granite worktop, wonder if I can get a replacement bezel?
> View attachment 14075471
> View attachment 14075471


Yes. Please use the contact form on the website. Julie and Dan can help you out.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I work from home, rarely leave the house, and don't wear a watch while I'm working. "Daily wearers" doesn't apply in my case.
> 
> Almost every watch we make is an attempt to make my dream watch. But I've got raging ADHD, so the dreams change more often than underwear, and I'm never entirely satisfied, so there's almost always more motivation to make something new.
> 
> ...


I know the feeling. I'm surprised I still like my Seiko SDGC017 as much as I did the day I got it. That almost never happens. Occasionally I'll even think about selling my Huldra, and then eventually come to my senses after I see it change about eight shades of blue and remember why I like it so much. I check Dr. Seikostain's page way too often because I'm always thinking about doing another SKX mod. (Shogun dial, Transocean hands, black sharkfin bezel, Planet Ocean insert. No, Submariner. No, coin edge. No, polished sharkfin. No, forget the whole thing.) Recently for a few days I decided I just HAVE to own a Cartier Drive de Cartier. Now I don't want that watch anymore.

I DO however want a black dial Chris Ward Grand Malvern Power Reserve, which of course Chris Ward doesn't make anymore, or at least it's not on the site now. Sigh.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I'm generally not a fan of matte ceramic bezels. Oris has a brushed one that's okay, but I don't love it either. That new deep blue/green one they have on the Clean Ocean though, YUP.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

I actually prefer to have a bezel that can scratch to have an "even" finish of scratches across the whole watch except on the crystal for the sake of readability. Does it not look weird to have a scratched watch case but no scratches on the bezel? 

Just my 2c.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Seikogi said:


> I actually prefer to have a bezel that can scratch to have an "even" finish of scratches across the whole watch except on the crystal for the sake of readability. Does it not look weird to have a scratched watch case but no scratches on the bezel?
> 
> Just my 2c.


But while you can repolish/rebrush the watch case, you cannot do the same for the bezel. Having to replace fewer bezel means less trouble for Doc. But I agree with you, I love the beat up, faded aluminum bezels of vintage Submariners


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Forever8895 said:


> But while you can repolish/rebrush the watch case, you cannot do the same for the bezel. Having to replace fewer bezel means less trouble for Doc. But I agree with you, I love the beat up, faded aluminum bezels of vintage Submariners


It really depends... If you have many small scratches and a few deep/big ones, polishing/rebrushing will make the smaller ones go away. The issue is that the bigger ones are even more noticeable afterwards, especially on polished surfaces. At the end of the day, its a matter of taste.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Forever8895 said:


> I love the beat up, faded aluminum bezels of vintage Submariners


I too love that look. No idea what is causing this but I would assume cheap paint combined with lots of salt and sun


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> But while you can repolish/rebrush the watch case, you cannot do the same for the bezel. Having to replace fewer bezel means less trouble for Doc. But I agree with you, I love the beat up, faded aluminum bezels of vintage Submariners


It's possible to brush out or polish out lighter scratches, even on the bezel, but deeper marks on any steel surface are going to be nearly impossible to remove.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Could you use that bodge (bog? idk the spelling) material that ppl use to re-finish and fix corroded car panels? And then cover it in a matching paint (or repaint the bezel).


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


>


There goes another half-hour of my day, chasing a watch I'm not going to buy. The sold-out NTHs are bad enough! I'm like a dog chasing cars...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Could you use that bodge (bog? idk the spelling) material that ppl use to re-finish and fix corroded car panels? And then cover it in a matching paint (or repaint the bezel).


Don't know if this question is for me, nor do I know what material you mean.

For light scratches on polished surfaces, Cape Cod cloths will work. For light scratches on brushed surfaces, scotchbrite pads will work.

For medium scratches on brushed surfaces, we have a small block that looks like a pencil eraser, which we can use to brush out those scratches.

I just had a local watchmaker use his brushing/polishing machines to get 90% of the damage out of a case which had been fairly well trashed.

If the case is dented, you're not getting that out with any sort of surface treatment.

When I was in talking to the watchmaker about that case, he showed me pics of badly damaged small metal parts which had been rebuilt using laser welding, which apparently can bond repair material to the remaining surface of a part. The watchmaker can then remove material to shape the part as needed. It was pretty amazing work and results, in my opinion, but still, small parts.

Could that be applied to a case or other large part? I don't know, but I'd think so. He doesn't have a laser welder himself. The pics he had were from some peer of his, who'd just gotten one. Apparently it's relatively new, still quite expensive tech. So, while we may not live in a world where all damage can be fixed cheaply yet, perhaps that world is coming.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

X2-Elijah said:


> Could you use that bodge (bog? idk the spelling) material that ppl use to re-finish and fix corroded car panels? And then cover it in a matching paint (or repaint the bezel).


Do you mean Bondo? Or one of the similar materials? In a word, no.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> When I was in talking to the watchmaker about that case, he showed me pics of badly damaged small metal parts which had been rebuilt using laser welding, which apparently can bond repair material to the remaining surface of a part. The watchmaker can then remove material to shape the part as needed. It was pretty amazing work and results, in my opinion, but still, small parts.
> 
> Could that be applied to a case or other large part? I don't know, but I'd think so. He doesn't have a laser welder himself. The pics he had were from some peer of his, who'd just gotten one. Apparently it's relatively new, still quite expensive tech. So, while we may not live in a world where all damage can be fixed cheaply yet, perhaps that world is coming.


I understand it's getting more common in the Rolex world to use laser welders to build up over-polished cases, then re-shape them back to something resembling the original bevels.

Un-polished cases are something Rolex nerds obsess over, and being able to appear unpolished can add thousands to a vintage watch.

Likewise, my jeweler friend tells me laser soldering is becoming much more common in higher end jewelry repair, due to the ability to finesse the repair and avoid heating the piece up the way a traditional torch does. The gear is still expensive, though.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









%99 of people do not notice or care whats on your wrist. All that matters is that YOU like what you see.


----------



## Watchoss (Apr 6, 2019)

Hi there,
Just wanted to put it out there, my blue modern nacken was running about plus ten a day. I tried different rest positions: crown up=no change, crown down=speed up about five seconds more a day, crystal up=no change, crystal down=slowed it down to about five seconds a day. I didn't test them for long and your results may vary, but maybe a good place to start. Doc, I'm sure you know better then me.
ps, love the watch!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Watchoss said:


> Hi there,
> Just wanted to put it out there, my blue modern nacken was running about plus ten a day. I tried different rest positions: crown up=no change, crown down=speed up about five seconds more a day, crystal up=no change, crystal down=slowed it down to about five seconds a day. I didn't test them for long and your results may vary, but maybe a good place to start. Doc, I'm sure you know better then me.
> ps, love the watch!


I don't know better. I don't care about accuracy. I don't have to. None of my watches gets worn for more than a few hours at a time. I'd rarely notice if one wasn't running well.

In the last 6 years, I've only ever had reason to wonder if my watch wasn't running well once. It was keeping great time. If one runs within 10 secs per day, that's awesome. If it's 30 seconds per day, I'd barely notice.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Watchoss said:


> Hi there,
> Just wanted to put it out there, my blue modern nacken was running about plus ten a day. I tried different rest positions: crown up=no change, crown down=speed up about five seconds more a day, crystal up=no change, crystal down=slowed it down to about five seconds a day. I didn't test them for long and your results may vary, but maybe a good place to start. Doc, I'm sure you know better then me.
> ps, love the watch!


Miyota specs -10/+30 as within spec. I think you're fine.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

%99 of people do not notice or care whats on your wrist. All that matters is that YOU like what you see.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Forever8895 said:


> But I agree with you, I love the beat up, faded aluminum bezels of vintage Submariners


I think all watches (even dress watches) look better once they look a little lived-in. Watches are meant to be worn, to be everyday companions.

There's something a little sterile and fussy about a perfectly maintained watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - accuracy - 

In one of the handful of online discussions regarding accuracy I've been involved in, I made the point that manufacturers and users tend to test accuracy differently. Manufacturers will use a timegrapher to test a watch at full power, and users tend to make their observations over 24 hours, some on the wrist, some off the wrist. But isochronism (the effect of losing accuracy as a movement loses power) could easily make the 24 hour results much different.

My point was that users' real-world experience is often different than spec.

Someone responded that users' real-world experience is more meaningful or important. I really can't argue with that. Of course it is, just as the gas mileage your car actually gets is more important to you than the manufacturer's estimated fuel efficiency.

In my observation, people seem to be more aware of how position affects accuracy than how power reserve affects it. We've had people suggest their watches were stopping prematurely, not holding power, but in almost every case, the watch was fine, and the user simply wasn't hand-winding it nor moving around enough to keep it wound on the wrist. 

If people over-estimate the contribution of their own activity to auto-winding, it stands to reason that they'd be less likely to realize their watch is running at low power, and more likely to be less accurate.

Also, when someone looks at their accuracy over a 24 hour period, I often wonder, are they hand-winding it some before setting it down for the night, or assuming that the watch is fully wound after a day of wearing it? That seems to be the wide-spread assumption. But the difference in performance over 8 hours at full power and 8 hours at low power could be huge, with some movements.

Forum member RatFacedGit started a thread which delved into the gear ratios of various movements, in which he compared the number of turns of the crown required to hand-wind a movement to full power to the number of rotor rotations.

For hand-winding, 25-40 full rotations of the crown will get an automatic movement to full power (depending on the movement), but it takes over 1,000 turns of the rotor. I think the 9015 takes over 1200. 

Since it's uni-directional in its winding, assume each swing of your arm adds 1/3 of a rotation - you'd need to swing your arm almost 4,000 times in a day. If you're not taking 3,000 steps in a day, it's likely that your watch is NOT at full power when you take it off to set it down.

People will often put down the 9015, because it's a uni-directional winder, or simply because it's not "Swiss". But our experience with it has been great. What I liked about the thread RatFace did was that he measured the effect of isochronism on the 9015, and compared it to a Swiss movement. 

When the Swiss do COSC testing, they test the variation in daily rate as the watch is set in different positions. They test at full power, and again after 24 hours, when the watch would be at slightly less than 1/2 power. It's understood that beyond 24 hours, even the most accurate mechanical movements are going to lose accuracy, and drift out of spec.

But, despite being a "pedestrian" movement, what we've seen (and what RatFace demonstrated) is that the 9015 is remarkably resistant to both posture changes and isochronism. It may be that your 9015 runs at +/- 15 seconds/day, but it's more than likely that it would run that way regardless of position, and from full power all the way down to almost no power. Whereas a standard ETA/Sellita movement which runs more accurately at full power, in 2 positions, may have much more posture variation, and not run as well as its power runs down.

We might reasonably think the 9015's unidirectional winding, especially when combined with the higher auto-winding ratio (it needs more rotor rotations than a Swiss movement) makes it a less efficient auto-winder, but anecdotally, we've found the opposite. Perhaps the freer-spinning rotor translates to more efficient auto-winding. We've had more people asking about power reserve with the Swiss movements than we've had with the 9015.

Why does all this matter? Because your real-world experience is more important, and can be very different than what we manufacturers see on a timegrapher, and what we put on a spec sheet. 

I think a case can be made that a movement which runs at +/- 15 secs/day, regardless of position, and even at low power, and is a very efficient auto-winder, has an advantage over one which has a lower daily rate (is more accurate) at full power, but also has more variance from position changes and power loss, and is a less efficient auto-winder. It may be that your +/- 10 seconds/day equates to +/- 20 seconds over 24 hours.

I think that positional stability and resistance to isochronism equate to predictability, and/or ease of use, if it means that user activity and input (hand-winding) are less important or have less impact on your experience.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Back on the topic of the health of the industry...

http://www.tempusfugit.watch/2019/04/the-forecast-calls-for-pain.html?m=1

The big take away is the cutting of hours or worse, layoffs, of assemblers.

If a brand is doing badly, they cut employees. People see that, and it's pretty transparent that the brand is struggling.

If my brand struggles, that sucks for my OEM, but he's got other brands besides mine to work with. If my OEM struggles, that sucks for his vendors, like the company handling assembly, but those vendors have other OEMs to work with.

There are layers of insulation there, such that one or more brands failing may not be an indication of very much, other than those brands possibly just being poorly run.

When the assemblers start letting people go, or cutting hours, it's a bigger, more undeniable indication that the trouble is more widespread. If other brands and OEMs are not stepping in to fill the void when one or more brands fall off the ledger, things are bad all over.

Conversely, our assembly partners can't keep up with the volume they're seeing.

The luxury industry needs a radical restructuring, and the longer it's delayed, the more painful it gets, and the more painful it will be.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Re - accuracy -
> 
> In one of the handful of online discussions regarding accuracy I've been involved in, I made the point that manufacturers and users tend to test accuracy differently.


This seems analogous to Samsung and how they are/were testing their folding phone's bendy display / hinge - with perfect open-closer robots doing a perfect 180-degree opening at perfectly uniform rate in a dust-free temp-and-moisture controlled facility...

And within a week of the phone's review units getting to reviewers, they start breaking due to delaminating display layers, dust getting stuck in the hinge under display panel, one of two display controllers dying...

Real-world testing cannot be replicated by setting up a proxy functionality test under perfect conditions only.. real world ain't perfect conditions and people ain't robots. If something is tested for human use, it ought to be tested in the conditions under which people actually use the thing. In the coming months, Samsung is gonna pay dearly for forgetting that.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> This seems analogous to Samsung and how they are/were testing their folding phone's bendy display / hinge - with perfect open-closer robots doing a perfect 180-degree opening at perfectly uniform rate in a dust-free temp-and-moisture controlled facility...
> 
> And within a week of the phone's review units getting to reviewers, they start breaking due to delaminating display layers, dust getting stuck in the hinge under display panel, one of two display controllers dying...
> 
> Real-world testing cannot be replicated by setting up a proxy functionality test under perfect conditions only.. real world ain't perfect conditions and people ain't robots. If something is tested for human use, it ought to be tested in the conditions under which people actually use the thing. In the coming months, Samsung is gonna pay dearly for forgetting that.


I'd agree it's analogous, but it raises the question - how do manufacturers deal with it, if we're talking about users' experience of a watch's accuracy making them think it's "out of spec", when it isn't, according to how manufacturer's test?

Just consider this very real-world hypothetical...

You buy a watch from me. You measure its accuracy over a 24 hour period using a mobile phone app, or just comparing it to the atomic clock. You find that the watch gains or loses 40 seconds per day, and that's out of spec.

For the sake of the example, we'll rule out any user error in observation, and just assume that you wore the watch "normally", to mean maybe you gave the crown a few turns to get it going, then put it on and wore it during the day, then took it off and set it down at night.

When you email us to complain, we tell you to take it to a watchmaker, have it tested at full power, and send us the timegrapher report. We send you the complete accuracy spec for the movement used:

*STP1-11* - Average daily rate of +/- 15 seconds/day, tested at full power (25 complete crown rotations, or 50 half-turns), measured in 5 positions of dial up, dial down, crown up, crown down, and 6 up, with up to 15 seconds/day of variance between positions, and up to +/- 20 s/d difference due to isochronism (loss of accuracy at less than 1/2 of full power).

*Miyota 9015* - Average daily rate of -10 to +30 seconds/day, tested between 10 and 60 minutes of full power (40 complete crown rotations, or 80 half-turns), measured in 4 positions of dial up, 6 up, crown up, and crown down, with up to 40 seconds/day of posture difference, and 20-40 seconds/day difference due to isochromism (loss of accuracy at less than 1/2 of full power).

*Seiko NH35* - Average of -25 to +35 seconds/day, tested between 10 and 60 minutes of full power (55 complete crown rotations, or 110 half-turns), measured in 3 positions of dial up, 6 up, and crown down, with up to 60 seconds/day of posture difference (12 up, 6 up, 9 up, 3 up), and 20-40 seconds/day difference due to isochromism (loss of accuracy at less than 1/2 of full power).

The watchmaker measures the daily variance in each of the positions listed in the movement specs, and finds that the average daily rate of the watch in those positions is within spec. He finds that the maximum difference in daily rate between positions is within spec, too.

What's left? He tells you it's running fine - and it is, at full power. If you're convinced it's not, the only thing left to test is the performance as the power winds down.

Look at the numbers. These movements can gain or lose an additional 20-40 seconds per day, on top of the average rate, as the power winds down. They usually perform better than that, but if they perform exactly that badly - it's still within spec.

So, if you're an accuracy nut, and you learn we're not going to regulate your watch for you, because it's within spec, even if it's gaining or losing 40-60 seconds every 24 hours, how upset are you about the difference between our specs and your real-world experience?

My guess is, you're pretty upset. Does it matter to you that it might take a watchmaker hours and hours of adjustment and testing to get that watch running the way you want it? If you have to pay for it, it probably matters. If not, then you probably don't care. My guess is you'd want us to pay to sort it out.

I asked my watchmaker what he'd charge someone if they wanted their 9015 adjusted/regulated to run within COSC spec. He said $200. Compared to what it costs to buy a watch with a COSC movement, that's cheap. But compared to the $500-$700 the watch with the 9015 cost, a lot of people are going to balk at that number.

For me, as the manufacturer, this is part (a big part) of why I love the 9015. Out of the box, it's adjusted in 4 (out of 6) positions, and from what we've seen, it's very resistant to both posture changes and isochronism.

That means that if we go the extra step and regulate them to run better than spec, at full power (which we do), there's a very good chance that watch will continue to run within spec all the way down to a dead stop.

Some will run better, even within COSC spec, but we're not worried about accuracy complaints with the Japanese movements, the way we would with movements like the standard 2824-2 or SW200, which are only adjusted to 2 positions, and more susceptible to posture changes, isochronism, and shocks.


----------



## captaincaveman79 (Feb 19, 2012)

Sailing to the bahamas on a cruise. That blue dial...


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Back on the topic of the health of the industry...
> 
> http://www.tempusfugit.watch/2019/04/the-forecast-calls-for-pain.html?m=1
> 
> ...


The reckoning is nigh.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jelliottz said:


> I do that from time to time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would never. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Someone say ceramic bezel insert? It's an upgrade. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> I would never.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


NTH without an external bezel?
Now you're speaking my language.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> It's an upgrade.


Oh. no. you. didn't...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



TheJohnP said:


> NTH without an external bezel?
> Now you're speaking my language.


I'm multilingual, and a heathen.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> I'm multilingual, and a heathen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What bracelet is that? How does the clasp look?


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Slant said:


> What bracelet is that? How does the clasp look?


It's just a random R bracelet copy. I asked him a while back and bought what I thought was the same thing on eBay. The end links weren't even close. I ruined them trying to make it fit but I kept the glidey-thingy clasp. Lol


----------



## Mattedialdoc (Oct 5, 2016)

Hey docvail,
Will the DevilRay be restocked?
Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Slant said:


> What bracelet is that? How does the clasp look?


Some guy in lithuania makes them. Half the cost of the Ginault bracelet, about half the quality. I dumped the clasp in favor of smaller fliplock. Glidelock is long for small wrists.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Could that be applied to a case or other large part? I don't know, but I'd think so. He doesn't have a laser welder himself. The pics he had were from some peer of his, who'd just gotten one. Apparently it's relatively new, still quite expensive tech. So, while we may not live in a world where all damage can be fixed cheaply yet, perhaps that world is coming.


It can be applied to a whole case and the results are pretty impressive.

https://instagram.com/lapinist_watchrestoration share before and after pictures on Instagram.

They specialise in grammar of design vintage Seikos where the sharp lines can easily get lost. The lack of transparency about pricing would indicate it's fairly spenny though.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

QUOTE=docvail;

I'm sentimental about the Cerberus and Orthos, because those were the only two I designed from scratch, by myself, and are/were the best examples of my personal design sensibilities.

I've been lurking a bit. I always thought these were your standout designs.








'nuff said really 

Peace, Love & Prosperity to all, as always.

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jelliottz said:


> I do that from time to time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





hwa said:


> I would never.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Best 2 NTH mods I ever seen! Just speechless !!

@hwa PRS-25?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



92gli said:


> It's just a random R bracelet copy. I asked him a while back and bought what I thought was the same thing on eBay. The end links weren't even close. I ruined them trying to make it fit but I kept the glidey-thingy clasp. Lol


We have the new gen 2 oysters for sale now, just FYI. I know people were asking about them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mattedialdoc said:


> Hey docvail,
> Will the DevilRay be restocked?
> Thanks!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I may have a few pieces available soon.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmnc said:


> It can be applied to a whole case and the results are pretty impressive.
> 
> https://instagram.com/lapinist_watchrestoration share before and after pictures on Instagram.
> 
> They specialise in grammar of design vintage Seikos where the sharp lines can easily get lost. The lack of transparency about pricing would indicate it's fairly spenny though.


Indeed, those results are impressive, and I was told it's quite expensive to do.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Forever8895 said:


> Best 2 NTH mods I ever seen! Just speechless !!
> 
> @hwa PRS-25?


Thanks, but let's not confuse what I did with @jelli's artistry. You've no idea what it took to find a new insert that actually fits, and then custom lumed handset?! Next level.

As for my method?









This was a good mod, too:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

John Keil and I did a turn on James Henderson's podcast, for anyone interested.

Download or listen here - https://anchor.fm/james-henderson3/...per-Look-with-heist--Ail-and-John-Keil-e3qe2o.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Nick Mankey is a legit genius


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

So something kinda cool happened to me today. I was walking through the cafeteria at work at lunchtime, and this guy flagged me down: "Excuse me, is that an NTH DevilRay?"

Me, kinda stunned: "Yes it is. Great eye!"

Although he was wearing a Helson Shark Diver today, it turns out that he owns a Skipjack and a Nazario. I mentioned that I also own an L&H Spectre, we chatted about the brand for a couple minutes then went on our separate ways. I just thought it was a really cool encounter. Sort of made my day.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> So something kinda cool happened to me today. I was walking through the cafeteria at work at lunchtime, and this guy flagged me down: "Excuse me, is that an NTH DevilRay?"
> 
> Me, kinda stunned: "Yes it is. Great eye!"
> 
> Although he was wearing a Helson Shark Diver today, it turns out that he owns a Skipjack and a Nazario. I mentioned that I also own an L&H Spectre, we chatted about the brand for a couple minutes then went on our separate ways. I just thought it was a really cool encounter. Sort of made my day.


So...you did NOT make plans to have lunch together tomorrow?

You know that guy's probably on here, wondering why you didn't exchange numbers and emails, right? You probably hurt his feelings.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> So...you did NOT make plans to have lunch together tomorrow?
> 
> You know that guy's probably on here, wondering why you didn't exchange numbers and emails, right? You probably hurt his feelings.


I messaged him on our internal Skype for Business service and added him as a contact. He seemed like a pretty cool guy and I'm sure we'll see each other around the playground during recess, but I can't just be jumping head first into watch bromances.

And you're probably right that he's on here somewhere, but isn't it possible that your brand's fan base has begun to grow beyond this forum? That would be interesting.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> I messaged him on our internal Skype for Business service and added him as a contact. He seemed like a pretty cool guy and I'm sure we'll see each other around the playground during recess, but I can't just be jumping head first into watch bromances.
> 
> And you're probably right that he's on here somewhere, but isn't it possible that your brand's fan base has begun to grow beyond this forum? That would be interesting.


It's more than possible. We've got fans in more places than a Tijuana brothel.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> It's more than possible. We've got fans in more places than a Tijuana brothel.


Original response deleted. I don't feel like getting banned tonight.

But on a more constructive note, (and I'm sure this conversation has taken place somewhere around here already), when does a microbrand just become a brand? Is there any consensus? Is it number of watches sold, some sort of revenue threshold, or some other less tangible metric like brand visibility, marketing, etc?

Not to hate on any other particular brand by name, but I can name at least one that seemed to come out of nowhere, with a poor reputation for QA or customer service. I hear ads for them in some podcasts that I listen to regularly and wonder if they made a decision to put all their eggs in one basket, spring for huge marketing, and hope that sales revenues from one-time customers yielded a worthwhile return. Random thoughts...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Original response deleted. I don't feel like getting banned tonight.
> 
> But on a more constructive note, (and I'm sure this conversation has taken place somewhere around here already), when does a microbrand just become a brand?


As soon as the owner's height exceeds 5'11".

I'm like, 5'10", so...we're good.



Coriolanus said:


> Is there any consensus? Is it number of watches sold, some sort of revenue threshold, or some other less tangible metric like brand visibility, marketing, etc?
> 
> Not to hate on any other particular brand by name, but I can name at least one that seemed to come out of nowhere, with a poor reputation for QA or customer service. I hear ads for them in some podcasts that I listen to regularly and wonder if they made a decision to put all their eggs in one basket, spring for huge marketing, and hope that sales revenues from one-time customers yielded a worthwhile return. Random thoughts...


In all seriousness, it's an open topic for debate. I have my own thoughts. Others will likely disagree with me. In no particular order (according to me, and some other brand owners):

Microbrands are brands that meet *MOST* of these criteria:

+ A solo practitioner, or a company with a very small number of employees.
+ Typically outsources most production of parts and assembly.
+ Typically produces a very small number of models each year (2 or 3, tops), and typically in smaller volumes (300-500 pieces per production run, sometimes fewer).
+ Typically using movements which are not produced "in-house" (something which usually requires tremendous resources).
+ Typically selling exclusively online, and primarily through their own website.
+ The brand owner is generally accessible to customers, by way of contacting them through the brand's website, or often, through their presence on social media.

I would add my own personal benchmark - you're not a microbrand until you've got your second model in production. Before that, as far as anyone knows, you just did a one-and-done project watch, and slapped a brand name/logo on it.

So, logically, a brand would cease being "micro" when they no longer meet most of those criteria.

It's unfortunate that many people tend to not think too much about what separates brands, and thus lump every Kickstarter project, every factory-owned brand, every new brand, and every pre-launch or post-failure brand together.

Because of the haphazard way brands get lumped together, and how amateurish so many seem, I've been getting pushback from some retailers to start referring to NTH as something other than a "micro" brand, and instead use some other term with potentially better associations, like "boutique" brand.

I dunno, but I don't think it matters too much what I call NTH. It's not like people are going to stop considering it a microbrand just because I stop calling it one. I think running the business in a professional way does more to differentiate it than the terms people use.

As for brands that sell a sub-par product with no or bad customer support - you'd think it would be a recipe for failure, but, sadly, it's not. It's actually a more viable business model than the way most micros are run, where the owners are under-paid and over-worked.

There will always be a ready market for cheap-yet-pretty garbage, sold at can't-pass-it-up prices, and marketed with slick imagery and copy.

P.T. Barnum was no fool...

"Nobody ever lost a dollar by underestimating the taste of the American public."

"There's a sucker born every minute."

It frequently occurs to me I'd be more successful if I was less honest.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Coriolanus, you should definitely go out and get a lottery ticket, because I have to believe the odds of running into another WIS that recognizes a Devil Ray have to be greater than the local pick-six. What a cool story.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> It's more than possible. We've got fans in more places than a Tijuana brothel.


I was going to say: no

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## thewodg (Dec 3, 2015)

Coriolanus said:


> Original response deleted. I don't feel like getting banned tonight.
> 
> But on a more constructive note, (and I'm sure this conversation has taken place somewhere around here already), when does a microbrand just become a brand? Is there any consensus? Is it number of watches sold, some sort of revenue threshold, or some other less tangible metric like brand visibility, marketing, etc?
> 
> Not to hate on any other particular brand by name, but I can name at least one that seemed to come out of nowhere, with a poor reputation for QA or customer service. I hear ads for them in some podcasts that I listen to regularly and wonder if they made a decision to put all their eggs in one basket, spring for huge marketing, and hope that sales revenues from one-time customers yielded a worthwhile return. Random thoughts...


Ariel Adams actually just put out a youtube video that addressed, among other issues, this topic.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> Original response deleted. I don't feel like getting banned tonight.
> 
> But on a more constructive note, (and I'm sure this conversation has taken place somewhere around here already), when does a microbrand just become a brand? Is there any consensus? Is it number of watches sold, some sort of revenue threshold, or some other less tangible metric like brand visibility, marketing, etc?
> 
> Not to hate on any other particular brand by name, but I can name at least one that seemed to come out of nowhere, with a poor reputation for QA or customer service. I hear ads for them in some podcasts that I listen to regularly and wonder if they made a decision to put all their eggs in one basket, spring for huge marketing, and hope that sales revenues from one-time customers yielded a worthwhile return. Random thoughts...


Are you asking doc if he's more of a grower than a shower? Am I understanding this exchange?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

thewodg said:


> Ariel Adams actually just put out a youtube video that addressed, among other issues, this topic.


I like Ariel. I respect his clear desire to inform consumers and advocate for the industry.

That said, I wish bloggers who attempt to define "microbrands", or even more contentious, come up with lists like "5 micros you should know" would stop and solicit input from actual microbrand owners and buyers.

Performance on the field defines an athlete. Coaches and general managers determine who gets to play on a team. A team's regular season record determines if they get into the playoffs. Playoff performance determines which two teams play in the Superbowl. Players, coaches and fans vote on which NFL players get to the Pro Bowl. I think that's about as merit- and results-based as you can get.

Where do you see sports journalists unilaterally defining who is or isn't an "athlete", or determining who are the best? The closest analogous situation I can think of is pro fighter rankings, but even there, the rankings are determined by journalists voting en masse, and the voting is heavily influenced by fighters' records. You don't see bad fighters at the top of the rankings.

There's no such thing as journalists all individually coming up with their own definitions and rankings, or at least, if there are, those one-off rankings aren't taken seriously. But that's exactly what we have with every blog coming up with its own definition and "best of" lists, which are often just lists of five brands who agreed to cooperate with whoever made the list, or a list of that person's five favorites.

The end result is what we have - widespread ambiguity about which brands are micro, what that means, which are the best, etc. That's the main reason I and other brand owners put the effort into coming up with some sort of definition we could all agree on, and why I've occasionally made the effort to get that definition out there into the public realm.

I think the NFL Pro Bowl is the best analogy, inasmuch as the regular season-playoffs-Superbowl paradigm is a zero-sum, winner-take all scenario. That's not how it is with micros. There's no one big winner, and the rest are losers. There's no clear-cut, objective measure by which micros can be judged.

I think microbrand owners themselves are best suited to understand what we have in common, and what thereby makes our brands "micro". We know more about our businesses than bloggers or consumers do, and therefore determining the definition ought to be up to us. I think it should be up to brand owners and customers to determine which are the best ones.

I think it would be interesting to see a blogger solicit opinions from brand owners, about which brands they admire, and why, especially if the brand owners were really honest, and we looked beyond apparent popularity, to get into things like design, quality, strength of following, reputation, etc. Those are things which combine to make "the whole package", whereas most of those "best of" lists seem so superficial and arbitrary.

As long as we're playing in never-gonna-happen land, here are some things I look at, when I look at other brands:

- Quality
- Pricing (are they over-priced or under-priced, in my opinion)
- Apparent speed of inventory turnover (how quickly do they sell out, an indication of how well the brand is managing supply vs demand)
- Related to both pricing and turnover, how much discounting are they doing, via pre-order/crowd-funding, or periodic sales.
- Design
- Following among enthusiasts 
- Market awareness and perception
- Buyer experience
- Customer support
- Brand/design cohesiveness
- Execution, by which I mean, are they always late with new models, by a little or a lot, is there always some problem with their new models, how are those problems addressed, etc.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a separate note, about those inbound NTH Subs...

We said we'd have them in April/May. It's looking like we'll be getting them in three batches, and by the time we get them through our QC and shipped to our retail partners, we're looking at 3 availability dates starting around May 10th, then another every 10 days, until the end of May.

It looks like the first batch we'll get will include the Odin Black, Scorpene Black, and the Nacken Renegade. 

I hoped to have them sooner, but apparently the bezel inserts weren't up to snuff, and so they needed to be re-made, putting us 2-3 weeks behind our expected timeline. These things happen, but that's why I pad our delivery estimates, and avoid giving exact dates. I said "April/May", and it'll be May.

My retailers have already purchased about 75% of the inventory we're expecting, and I expect them to buy another 20% of it soon after we start sales. I'm already sold out of 4 versions we've got coming. I'll be surprised if I'm not sold out of most, if not all models by the end of June/beginning of July. 

If you are hoping to get your hands on one of the new Subs, and you haven't already done so, I urge you to contact your closest NTH retailer, and get on their waiting list. I anticipate they'll be sold out of most models by the end of July. 

We've already got more production started. We're expecting the next batch sometime in June/July. I need to confirm the timeline with my OEM. We're trying to accelerate the deliveries, so that we're getting new pieces in every 2 months, rather than every 4 months. So, after the batch expected in June/July, we're looking towards August/September.

You may notice that when we get there, we'll have fewer versions with each delivery. Rather than hitting you with 12 models every 4 months, it'll be more like 6 models every 2 months, and we'll determine which models we're making based on how those models have done in the past. 

We'll likely "leapfrog" the productions, such that it will be rare to see the same models available in back-to-back deliveries, unless they're just wildly popular and selling out near-instantly. We're ramping up production of the most popular versions, so that if/when we sell out of them, we've already got more on their way. 

Otherwise, it will probably be at least six months between repeat productions of most models. So, most of the models we're expecting to receive for April/May won't be seen again until October/November, at the earliest.

Here and there we'll sprinkle some new models in with the familiar ones, so expect to see 1 or 2 new models included with each delivery, more often than not.

What's coming, you ask?

We've got more Skipjacks in the pipeline, and designs for 3 or 4 new versions either "done" or nearly done (we need to finalize the handsets on 3 of them). I want to get at least 2 or 3 of the 4 into production for the August/September batch, and the remaining 1 or 2 into the batch after that, with an October/November target.

The June/July batch is already in production. I'm trying to figure out what will be included in the August/September batch now. We'll determine the October/November models once we see how the inbound batch do.

Yes, we're still working on the L/XL Sub. Now that I've found some handsets I think I like for the new 40mm Subs versions, I can get back to working with Aaron on the designs for the L/XL model. I hope we can have a handful ready for production to start by the end of May, so that we can target early fall for delivery.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> These things happen, but that's why I pad our delivery estimates, and avoid giving exact dates. I said "April/May", and it'll be May.


That's actually pretty good. When I usually hear someone in the watch world announce April/May, in my head that translates to June/July, but probably July. Maybe August.

So yeah, kudos!


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Spent 2 hours to find matching 19mm fat spring bars for the Seiko diver. 

That made me wondering, what is the recommended spring bar tip/end diameter size for the subs?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> That's actually pretty good. When I usually hear someone in the watch world announce April/May, in my head that translates to June/July, but probably July. Maybe August.
> 
> So yeah, kudos!


I used to get more frustrated with delays.

Not taking pre-orders has helped alleviate some of the pressure. We still get people asking when the new models will come in, but at least we don't have anyone's money, and as such, we don't owe anyone an explanation.

Not taking pre-orders means no one cancelling their order because of a delay, no updating people's addresses or holding orders while they're traveling, no email updates to a sub-set of subscribers every other week, no going online, hat-in-hand, making a mea culpa. If someone wants to give me $hlt about it, I can just tune them out.

It also helps that I know the reason for the delay. When a factory tells you 60 or 90 days, then on day 84 tells you it'll be another 3 weeks, without any explanation why, and you've been telling all your pre-order customers you'll be shipping in the next week, it's maddening.

That used to happen to me, almost every production. The factory would tell me everything was hunky-dory on Sunday. I'd send out a pre-order update on Monday. By Tuesday, we'd suddenly be delayed two weeks, and my blood pressure would boil over.

Now, we just project the future delivery date, go +/- 2 weeks on either side of it, add another 2 weeks for potential delays, and we usually come in within a week or two of the projected range. When we get a delay, they tell me why, and I know enough not to flip out about it.

We started production on this batch back in mid-November. With the break for Chinese New Year, I figured we'd get them in mid-April, at the earliest, but we might end up in early May. Here we are, pretty much exactly where I figured we'd be. Yesterday I was told they'd be shipping to me that day. Today I got tracking info. We're right on track.

If they say the bezel inserts weren't good enough, I don't ask why they weren't good enough to begin with. I just thank them for making sure the inserts were remade to meet our quality standards. Sometimes things aren't good enough the first time around. Better to give them time to fix it than to push them to deliver sub-standard quality in order to meet an arbitrarily set deadline.

I still get anxious as we get into the final days of the timeline, and I know my retailers are getting antsy about when we can start taking orders, but it feels a lot better than what I used to deal with, and it's apparently a lot better than what they still deal with from some other brands.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Spent 2 hours to find matching 19mm fat spring bars for the Seiko diver.
> 
> That made me wondering, what is the recommended spring bar tip/end diameter size for the subs?


I recommend the ones we ship with the Subs.

I don't know their size. It's one of many things I don't know, because I don't need to know.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> I recommend the ones we ship with the Subs.
> 
> I don't know their size. It's one of many things I don't know, because I don't need to know.


Long gone, I wear my sub most of the time - 24/7.

If someone here could measure the "tip - diameter" size of the OEM spring bars, much appreciated!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Looks like Chris Ward was listening to the complaints about their porridge being either too hot or too cold. Apparently the upcoming Trident Pro may offer as many as three versions in 38/40/42. If they're all 1000M though like in the teaser that has me worried about the case height. Unless they're going to an SW-300, I would imagine they'd struggle to keep it under 14mm.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Looks like Chris Ward was listening to the complaints about their porridge being either too hot or too cold. Apparently the upcoming Trident Pro may offer as many as three versions in 38/40/42. If they're all 1000M though like in the teaser that has me worried about the case height. Unless they're going to an SW-300, I would imagine they'd struggle to keep it under 14mm.


This may be stating the obvious, but I don't think the bigger brands are overly concerned with their customers complaining about the watches being too thick. If they were, they'd make them thinner. The trend seems to indicate that people want specs they can brag about, not thinness they can brag about. More specs = more thickness.

That said, it's interesting that most big brands only publish the case diameter, and maybe the lug width. It's rare to see the case length or thickness mentioned. And they seem to go out of their way to have the product photography obscure their bulging case-backs.

Meanwhile, sit tight. We're about to launch the world's thinnest ____m WR diving watch (again).


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> Looks like Chris Ward was listening to the complaints about their porridge being either too hot or too cold. Apparently the upcoming Trident Pro may offer as many as three versions in 38/40/42. If they're all 1000M though like in the teaser that has me worried about the case height. Unless they're going to an SW-300, I would imagine they'd struggle to keep it under 14mm.


"TI Elite" tag line at the end suggests it's titanium. Maybe titanium can be thinner at the same WR compared to 316?


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Seikogi said:


> Long gone, I wear my sub most of the time - 24/7.
> 
> If someone here could measure the "tip - diameter" size of the OEM spring bars, much appreciated!


The OEM bars on my BVB are .8mm at the tip and 1.7mm at the barrel.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> This may be stating the obvious, but I don't think the bigger brands are overly concerned with their customers complaining about the watches being too thick. If they were, they'd make them thinner. The trend seems to indicate that people want specs they can brag about, not thinness they can brag about. More specs = more thickness.
> 
> That said, it's interesting that most big brands only publish the case diameter, and maybe the lug width. It's rare to see the case length or thickness mentioned. And they seem to go out of their way to have the product photography obscure their bulging case-backs.
> 
> Meanwhile, sit tight. We're about to launch the world's thinnest ____m WR diving watch (again).


That's very true. I really hate having to wait for a reviewer to break out the caliper to find out how big a watch _actually_ is. You make the damn thing. You know how big it is - why can't you just put that in the specs? The Seiko Transocean for example is something like 54mm L2L, and you won't find that listed on any retailer's website. Companies are also inconsistent about measuring case height to the bezel, or to the top of the crystal if it's a big dome or a box crystal. L2L measurements on some watches are nearly impossible to find. That might not matter if you have 8" tree trunk wrists, but if you have Popsicle stick wrists like mine, L2L is pretty important. Anything over around 48.5 looks like my wrist is wearing a hat.

Thinness to me matters - but really only to a point. On a dive watch I think anything less than 13mm is great. I appreciate how much effort you guys put into making the sub as thin as it is, and it's a really impressive achievement, but if it was an "ordinary" 12mm height, I certainly wouldn't be put off by that, and I would bet that probably 95% of your customers wouldn't be either. It's really only when you start getting well past 13mm that a watch can start to look like a truck on the side, doubly so if the case is slab sided like the Black Bay.

The Samurai for example is pretty chunky, but I feel like it hides that fairly well. The 14.4mm thick Seiko 4R57 based power reserve Cocktails are inexcusably thick though for what are supposed to be _dress watches_, and the case design doesn't hide any of that bulk. I'm not sure why adding a power reserve and date subdial complication adds nearly *3mm* in height over the 4R35 Cocktail. Seems like something is very wrong there, this isn't a chronograph module we're talking about.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

As to the spring bars, I think it's a generic 20mm spring bars nothing out of the ordinary (not seiko's fat bars). I have swap it in-between the provided spring bars and a generic one that I got from buying straps. works fine without an issue.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> Meanwhile, sit tight. We're about to launch the world's thinnest ____m WR diving watch (again).


My guess would be 600?? H2O recently launched the Tiburon with an impressive 11.9mm thick case with dome sapphire crystal and 500m WR, but they use ETA 2893. That's pretty tough to beat but we have faith in you!


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> The Samurai for example is pretty chunky, but I feel like it hides that fairly well. The 14.4mm thick Seiko 4R57 based power reserve Cocktails are inexcusably thick though for what are supposed to be _dress watches_, and the case design doesn't hide any of that bulk. I'm not sure why adding a power reserve and date subdial complication adds nearly *3mm* in height over the 4R35 Cocktail. Seems like something is very wrong there, this isn't a chronograph module we're talking about.


+1

also note how the big watch blogs/news never or very rarely show photos of the sides of a thick watch... Especially Grand Seiko. Even my Rangeman G-Shock doesn't look thick if I were to only shoot photos from above.

Seiko is a special case, idk maybe they do it on purpose? Even a manual wind no date dress watch GS is over 12mm thick. I wish they would use modified Miyota movements since their in house offerings are too thick for any non diver.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

The samurai is a chunky metal. I need to get rid of it after experiencing nth subs 11.5mm. Doesn't look chunky on camera but the top wobbles alot when wearing it


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Myeah. After the subs, a lot of 13mm+ watches - that some years ago would have been just normal - now feel uncomfortable.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> My guess would be 600?? H2O recently launched the Tiburon with an impressive 11.9mm thick case with dome sapphire crystal and 500m WR, but they use ETA 2893. That's pretty tough to beat but we have faith in you!


Is that 11.9mm total, including case-back and crystal? The 2893 isn't that much thinner than the 9015. Getting 500m WR into 11.9mm doesn't sound right.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> The samurai is a chunky metal. I need to get rid of it after experiencing nth subs 11.5mm. Doesn't look chunky on camera but the top wobbles alot when wearing it


I love the Samurai's case design, and its diameter helps it seem less chunky, but, yes, it's still a bit chunky/top-heavy.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Is that 11.9mm total, including case-back and crystal? The 2893 isn't that much thinner than the 9015. Getting 500m WR into 11.9mm doesn't sound right.


Visually looks like it could be 11.9.









hard to say how true the 500m rating is, ofc, unless we get an independent third party to actually test a bunch of these microbrand watches.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Visually looks like it could be 11.9.
> 
> View attachment 14093115
> 
> ...


I don't know Clemens Helberg well, but it's hard to imagine he'd fudge the numbers. He doesn't seem like the type to do something like that for the sake of pumping up sales.

I wonder what the case diameter is, and more relevant, what the crystal diameter is? If that is in fact 11.9mm total, that's really remarkable.

I may have to take a second look at the 2892 vs 9015 difference. We (Rusty and I) spent a little time trying to figure out if we could design a case which would accommodate either the 9015 or the 2893 GMT. I remember them being very close in size, and the main challenge we had was accommodating the differences in crown-stem height and hands-post height.

I wonder if maybe the non-GMT 2893 has a much lower hands-post height, without the GMT hand.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Good questions.

Idk about dial diameter... Here is a pic from the configurator, maybe that gives an idea how wide the aperture is. Case diam. is 42.









Specs on site (https://www.h2o-watch.com/h2o-tiburon.html) say this... Interesting how closed caseback / 11.4m thin = 300m wr, seethrough back w/ 11.9mm thin = 500m wr.

SPEZIFICATIONS: 
CASE MATERIAL: Edelstahl 316L
CASE BACK: Closed case back or sapphire display case back / SS 316L
CASE DIAMETER: 42.00mm
BEZEL DIAMETER: 42.50mm
CASE HEIGHT: 11.90mm incl. sapphire crystal and sapphire display case back
11.40mm incl. sapphire crystal and closed case back
CASE LENGTH: 48.00 - 52.70mm / variabel turnable lug plate
WEIGHT: 77g only complete case / ca. 99g watch case incl. leather strap
LUG WIDTH: 22mm
WATER RESISTANCE:

300M with closed case back
500M with sapphire display case back
CROWN: SCrew down crown / 6mm diameter
DIAL: Two different designs in black and blue color / all dials with sunburst brushing / SWISS Super-LumiNova BGW9
HANDSET: Three different handsets
MOVEMENT: SWISS ETA 2892, Automatik, 28.800 bph, second stop


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> Is that 11.9mm total, including case-back and crystal? The 2893 isn't that much thinner than the 9015. Getting 500m WR into 11.9mm doesn't sound right.


I've read somewhere that 11.9 is the total thickness. Interestingly it is the sapphire caseback that have higher WR. I really want to buy one, but the Subs is the largest watch I can put on. Sometimes I even feel like the 39mm Aevig Valkyr looks big on my wrist.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

P/s: yes X2-Elijah posted above, 11.9 is the total thickness


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I wonder if maybe the non-GMT 2893 has a much lower hands-post height, without the GMT hand.


2893-2: 4.10mm thickness.
2892-a2: 3.6mm thickness.

Seems like a meaningful diff.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Good questions.
> 
> Idk about dial diameter... Here is a pic from the configurator, maybe that gives an idea how wide the aperture is. Case diam. is 42.
> 
> ...


The way that's worded, "11.40mm incl. sapphire crystal and closed case back" seems to make it clear that it does indeed include both.

That's amazing. My hat's off to Clemens. Even with what appears to be a smaller-diameter crystal for a 42mm case diameter, I wouldn't have guessed that was possible. I'll definitely have to go back and re-compare the 2892 to the 9015 and see if I can figure it out.

Seems like a nice bargain at EUR 790 (USD ~$880 at today's exchange rate), too.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> I've read somewhere that 11.9 is the total thickness. Interestingly it is the sapphire caseback that have higher WR. I really want to buy one, but the Subs is the largest watch I can put on. Sometimes I even feel like the 39mm Aevig Valkyr looks big on my wrist.


The 11.9mm is actually with the sapphire case back. With the solid case back, it's 11.4mm.

Either way, those numbers are incredible for 500m WR and 42mm diameter.

Case shape can have a lot to do with how thick a watch feels, aside from the measured thickness, so your mileage may vary. But all other things being equal, 0.4mm difference isn't much, and with the wider diameter, and the thin case wall on the Tiburon, I imagine it wouldn't feel much, if any thicker than the Subs.

I'll look forward to reading people's comments about them. I'm sure people will love them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> 2893-2: 4.10mm thickness.
> 2892-a2: 3.6mm thickness.
> 
> Seems like a meaningful diff.


Thanks for saving me some internet searching.

Notwithstanding what I just posted about 0.4mm being not that big a difference in total thickness, 0.5mm is a meaningful difference in movement thickness.

Those figures don't include the hands-post height, which could add to the difference. I vaguely recall the 2893's post height being shorter than the 9015's, and the 2892's might be even shorter.

If the total difference in thickness is ~0.7-0.8mm, that helps me wrap my head around it.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> Thanks for saving me some internet searching.
> 
> Notwithstanding what I just posted about 0.4mm being not that big a difference in total thickness, 0.5mm is a meaningful difference in movement thickness.
> 
> ...


I just remembered that's how Nick got his Calamity down to 10.5mm thanks to the 2892. I never like ETAs as a whole, but this is truly impressive. It makes me laugh when the first Black Bay used ETA 2824, and 2x (or 3?) more expensive.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> The way that's worded, "11.40mm incl. sapphire crystal and closed case back" seems to make it clear that it does indeed include both.
> 
> That's amazing. My hat's off to Clemens. Even with what appears to be a smaller-diameter crystal for a 42mm case diameter, I wouldn't have guessed that was possible. I'll definitely have to go back and re-compare the 2892 to the 9015 and see if I can figure it out.
> 
> Seems like a nice bargain at EUR 790 (USD ~$880 at today's exchange rate), too.


Does anyone else find the crown at 6 to be odd?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Does anyone else find the crown at 6 to be odd?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Crowns at 6 or 12 are not my thing, but it is kind of cool.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Does anyone else find the crown at 6 to be odd?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'd hopnestly prefer it at 12. Right now, if the folding lug folds, the watch dial will slant to the outside; with crown and folding lug at 12, the dial would slant inwards closer to viewer.

Buuuut it's not that siginificant. As a design thing, imo it's cool.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Forever8895 said:


> I just remembered that's how Nick got his Calamity down to 10.5mm thanks to the 2892. I never like ETAs as a whole, but this is truly impressive. It makes me laugh when the first Black Bay used ETA 2824, and 2x (or 3?) more expensive.


I was going to bring that up.
Nick aka Crappysurfer should have all the info regarding hands-post height and such on the 2892 from his Calamity.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

What the guy above me said.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This one got a bit long (TWSS), but the latest episode of Doc's House Calls is up.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Listening to it now. (33 min. in). 

Good conversation so far.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*










Love that dial. Bezel is looking cool and dark too with drizzly nighttime weather.

EDIT: And with some light:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> This one got a bit long (TWSS), but the latest episode of Doc's House Calls is up.
> 
> [/video=youtube;Lgaj1ZevQa0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lgaj1ZevQa0[/video]


Wall of YouTube.

Doc just likes walls.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I talk fast.

I type fast.

For you guys, it's a lot of words. For me, it's just "talking".


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I talk fast.
> 
> I type fast.
> 
> For you guys, it's a lot of words. For me, it's just "talking".


For realsys, though: I appreciate all of the content in here and elsewhere.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I spend too fast.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Grows on you, and seems to be look better with rubber/leather strap. But this is preference.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

liquidtension said:


> Grows on you [...] But this is preference.


Could be a fungus tho.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

It is... The good sort.. i dare say sotc ends with nth


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> For realsys, though: I appreciate all of the content in here and elsewhere.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Except for that puke picture you posted above, yeah, the content usually is good.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Except for that puke picture you posted above, yeah, the content usually is good.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Easy, big guy. Let's not start a big thing...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Forever8895 said:


> I just remembered that's how Nick got his Calamity down to 10.5mm thanks to the 2892. I never like ETAs as a whole, but this is truly impressive. It makes me laugh when the first Black Bay used ETA 2824, and 2x (or 3?) more expensive.


To be a little bit fair to Tudor, it wasn't an off the shelf 2824 like most watches use, nor did they just stick something like a red rotor in it like Oris does with otherwise OTS Sellitas and put their own branding on it. The regulation system is completely different from what ETA uses. Whether that makes a noticeable difference over a normal Top grade 2824 is another matter. That being said, the BB has never attempted to be a thin watch. The In-house MT version is actually thicker than the ETA version.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> To be a little bit fair to Tudor, it wasn't an off the shelf 2824 like most watches use, nor did they just stick something like a red rotor in it like Oris does with otherwise OTS Sellitas and put their own branding on it. The regulation system is completely different from what ETA uses. Whether that makes a noticeable difference over a normal Top grade 2824 is another matter. That being said, the BB has never attempted to be a thin watch. The In-house MT version is actually thicker than the ETA version.


I have no grudges against Tudor. I admire their recreation of the vintage Submariner. Their BB 1 is what brought me to the WIS world. In fact Tudor's prices are much more sensible in the world of luxury Swiss brands.

Honestly I never own an ETA piece, let alone a Tudor. I'm not sure if their modification of the 2824 made any difference in performance. The BB41 is not made to be thin, sure, but everyone knows what a massive hit they made with the BB58. In some places AD still doesn't have any BB58 in stock. Thin and comfortable watch is what people really want.

People are willing to spend 3500$ for a BB, but say the Calamity at 1500$ is over-priced. I love both watches, but if money is no objection, I'll buy a BB58 in a heartbeat...

and a Kingston...

and a couple of limited-ed NTHs


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Far too many posts to go through, but why isn't doc at windup? 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> Far too many posts to go through, but why isn't doc at windup?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


My invitation must have once again gotten lost in the mail.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> My invitation must have once again gotten lost in the mail.


Meh I totally disagree with that, you sell as many if not more watches than some of the brands there. I think you are more than relevant enough to be there.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> Meh I totally disagree with that, you sell as many if not more watches than some of the brands there. I think you are more than relevant enough to be there.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Feel free to forward all that to Zach and company at W&W. He stopped responding to my attempts at communication not long after I told Adam Craniotes of Red Bar he had no honor, for keeping the samples he agreed he'd send back to me.

Funny how small a world it can be, sometimes.

Let's be honest - I haven't made a lot of friends in the blogger community, or at least, not among those who like to play the role of king-maker.

If I ran a business which depended on convincing small brands (and some big ones) that they needed my patronage to be successful, I wouldn't like the owners of brands like NTH, either, for demonstrating that it's possible to succeed even without gushing praise from online taste-makers.

At this point, even if they did invite me, I doubt I'd go. I'd have to sell a ton of watches just to break even, and I never have a ton available for sale any more.

It's all good.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Just for jumping on my predictable response to pictures of the orange monster (seiko homage?), I did it again. Just make 'em, big guy. Low-hanging fruit.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Just for jumping on my predictable response to pictures of the orange monster (seiko homage?), I did it again. Just make 'em, big guy. Low-hanging fruit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Amazing.

Would be even better with a rotating, fully-lumed bezel.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Amazing.
> 
> Would be even better with a rotating, fully-lumed bezel.


In all seriousness...

The last time this thread had a bout of why-don't-you-make-this-itis, it later occurred to me that I would (will?) in fact make anything/everything, just as soon as my business gets to the point that the success of all those things become foregone conclusions, and/or it's obvious there's no value in making more of what we're already making.

In case that last part isn't clear enough...

We can't make NTH Subs fast enough to keep up with demand. If you were me, and you had to choose between making more of what sells out instantly, and making something new, with uncertain results, what would you do?

Yeah, me too, I'm making more NTH Subs.

As soon as our supply catches up to demand, I'll turn my attention to basic 3-handers, GMT's, chronos, bronze, titanium, or whatever.

The only reason I'm letting my team get involved in the L/XL Sub is that we've got some unused capacity on the design side, while waiting for production to catch up, and I see clear (and strong) demand for a larger version of the Subs. *THAT* is the REAL low-hanging fruit, right there.

No one should take my rejection of their idea as poo-pooing it on its own merits (notwithstanding the fact that some ideas are poo). I just don't have the capacity needed, nor do I see the value in getting wrapped up in developing those ideas now.

"Do you really have to limit what ideas you explore?"

Yes, I really do. I've sunk too many shafts down dry holes to keep doing that, over and over. Our resources for, and my patience with new model development are both limited. My team isn't working to develop anything we're not VERY sure we want to put into immediate production.

When the time is right, I'll know it. Until then, the time ain't right, and y'all just pissing in the wind with all the "what about this" suggestions.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

No worries, bro. Just having some fun on Friday. No whiskey, so irreverently modding watches to pass the time


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Feel free to forward all that to Zach and company at W&W. He stopped responding to my attempts at communication not long after I told Adam Craniotes of Red Bar he had no honor, for keeping the samples he agreed he'd send back to me.
> 
> Funny how small a world it can be, sometimes.
> 
> ...


The world of watch blogs is incestuous and intellectually dishonest. I do however think most who work/live in it are decent people. But the way the business model is working is not advantageous for us the consumer nor for businesses, that won't scratch their backs. Worn and wound for example, the bias within their reviews are blatant. And they do way more promoting of their own products then they do comprehensive reviews. I'm not upset about it I would do the same thing to chase that pay day. But we need to be aware they aren't providing us with a service, they are a marketing tool and a retail shop. Sadly they also play the friends game and because of the dominance of that circle it leaves out many decent brands. That's my Friday rant. I just crave some real and genuine reviews.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> The world of watch blogs is incestuous and intellectually dishonest. I do however think most who work/live in it are decent people. But the way the business model is working is not advantageous for us the consumer nor for businesses, that won't scratch their backs. Worn and wound for example, the bias within their reviews are blatant. And they do way more promoting of their own products then they do comprehensive reviews. I'm not upset about it I would do the same thing to chase that pay day. But we need to be aware they aren't providing us with a service, they are a marketing tool and a retail shop. Sadly they also play the friends game and because of the dominance of that circle it leaves out many decent brands. That's my Friday rant. I just crave some real and genuine reviews.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


They're out there. I'm generally a fan of the blogs with which (whom?) I've regularly worked. The Time Bum, the guys at Wrist Watch Review, Joshua from Watch it all About, Bruce Williams and Random Rob on YouTube - all good people, doing what they do for the love of it, not the big payday. I'm sure I'm leaving some folks out, but I'm out drinking with an old friend, so hopefully I'll be forgiven for my omissions.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> My invitation must have once again gotten lost in the mail.


Just got back. Some nice/friendly people there (Damasko, Zelos), but you're not missing much. A good amount of people (customers) for sure, but with the exception of ONE brand and Zelos' new GMT, there's nothing much new.

Also, seeing as it's in an old art gallery in an area where the foot traffic isn't interested in stopping (they are trying to get the the shipping district), it's mostly WIS in attendance, who prob know all the brands already.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Just got back. Some nice/friendly people there (Damasko, Zelos), but you're not missing much. A good amount of people (customers) for sure, but with the exception of ONE brand and Zelos' new GMT, there's nothing much new.
> 
> Also, seeing as it's in an old art gallery in an area where the foot traffic isn't interested in stopping (they are trying to get the the shipping district), it's mostly WIS in attendance, who prob know all the brands already.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I did the math on the NY show, and the LA show, and couldn't make the numbers add up to making it worth the investment.

I feel a wall of text coming on, about the cost of value-suckers in this business, but I think I'll just keep drinking and enjoying my night out. The only reason I'm checking my phone is because my friend keeps going outside to smoke.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I just listened to the interview you did with John, Doc. It sounded as if you were calling in from an actual Sub. Rather than recommending a new Sub variant, I'm going to instead pitch something like this for the Subs box, but with a picture of you Subbed in.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I feel a wall of text coming on, about the cost of value-suckers in this business, but I think I'll just keep drinking and enjoying my night out. The only reason I'm checking my phone is because my friend keeps going outside to smoke.


Ha. These W&W shows are like the microbrand version of the "swiss made" from-factory-importers in switzerland. The only value added is the (meaningless) association with some authority (W&W, swiss law) and a boosted price because of that added value.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Amazing.
> 
> Would be even better with a rotating, fully-lumed bezel.


I smell a hit. You should totally make something like that. Also, while production fixed bezel NTH "subs" would be cool, there's also something cool in having a one of a kind mod, even if it's something as seemingly simple as a fixed bezel conversion. Seiko could easily make a brushed steel bezeled Samurai for example. They don't, which makes a Samurai with said bezel that much cooler because it's not something you can just go out and buy.


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> I smell a hit. You should totally make something like that. Also, while production fixed bezel NTH "subs" would be cool, there's also something cool in having a one of a kind mod, even if it's something as seemingly simple as a fixed bezel conversion. Seiko could easily make a brushed steel bezeled Samurai for example. They don't, which makes a Samurai with said bezel that much cooler because it's not something you can just go out and buy.
> 
> View attachment 14098229


Really nice and classy, where did the brushed bezel come from?


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

Mad props, that brushed bezel looks the bomb!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Ha. These W&W shows are like the microbrand version of the "swiss made" from-factory-importers in switzerland. The only value added is the (meaningless) association with some authority (W&W, swiss law) and a boosted price because of that added value.


I don't entirely disagree, but there are exceptions.

I plan to be at the DistrictTime event in DC again this year. It's organized by The Time Bum and McDowell Time.

Neither behaves as if they are remotely interested in wielding power over the brands which attend, and if they make any money from the event this year, I like to think it's at least in part due to me telling them they need to make at least *SOME* profit for their efforts in putting it all together.

It's a good event. Perhaps not as well-attended as some others, but I can drive there (no airfare or inventory shipping expense), and it's not nearly as expensive to exhibit, so the break-even point is much lower. Plus, I like going to DC (once a year), I like the organizers (Loren the Bum and Bill McDowell are good eggs), and I like seeing the other brands there, many of whom are friends.

This year, we'll be doing our second Microbrand University Workshop, there in DC, on the two days prior to the DistrictTime event, so the overall expense of attending DistrictTime will be mitigated by the fact that we'll be there anyway.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

And, of course, DC is where doc gets his annual dose of @hwa to try to distract him away from his successful business plans in favor of odd turns to the left and right.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

A cool pair









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Mattedialdoc (Oct 5, 2016)

Hey docvail,

Are the colors of the blue Odin and Näcken the same shade? Dial and Insert? It’s hard to tell. Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Mattedialdoc said:


> Hey docvail,
> 
> Are the colors of the blue Odin and Näcken the same shade? Dial and Insert? It's hard to tell. Thanks.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope.

The dial on the Näcken is a very low saturation (not vibrant) blue. It's almost gray. In some lights, it's hard for some people to detect that there's any blue in it.

The dial on the Odin is a high saturation (very vibrant) blue, meant to match the color of the bezel insert, as close as we could get.

The bezel inserts are PVD. The color choices are limited. We specify the same PVD color for both models, but that color might vary slightly from one batch to the next.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> And, of course, DC is where doc gets his annual dose of @hwa to try to distract him away from his successful business plans in favor of odd turns to the left and right.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You know how much I enjoy our occasional chats.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> You know how much I enjoy our occasional chats.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


Tell me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Tell me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's like primal scream therapy. It's supposed to make you feel good. It's loud and gives me a headache. Later I wonder why I paid to be there. Then even more later, I go back again, and when asked, I tell people I enjoy it.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

BigEd said:


> Really nice and classy, where did the brushed bezel come from?


Namoki. A few of the usual suspects for Seiko mod parts also make similar steel bezel inserts, but their's I think looks the nicest, really deep engraving and HQ painting. You will also need an SRP Turtle bezel to do it, or any replacement bezel designed for the Turtle. Inserts that fit the Sammy's stock knurled bezel are still pretty limited; DLW has a few ceramic ones but that's really it. However, some enterprising folks discovered that the Turtle bezel is a drop in replacement for the Sammy, and thus any Turtle bezel insert can then be fitted to a Sammy.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Huh. Didn't know you used to have your own comic series, Doc.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> Huh. Didn't know you used to have your own comic series, Doc.
> 
> View attachment 14099923


It kind of looks like Doc too!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

docvail said:


> Nope.
> 
> The dial on the Näcken is a very low saturation (not vibrant) blue. It's almost gray. I some lights, it's hard for some people to detect that there's any blue in it.
> 
> ...


This surprises me - I really thought the two blues were roughly the same if not identical. And I would have never guessed the Odin was less blue than the Nacken Modern! Thoroughly confused now...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMFord said:


> This surprises me - I really thought the two blues were roughly the same if not identical. And I would have never guessed the Odin was less blue than the Nacken Modern! Thoroughly confused now...


You would have guessed backwards.

The Odin is more blue than the Näcken.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> You would have guessed backwards.
> 
> The Odin is more blue than the Näcken.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


it really is...as in, a true blue, like pelagos. beautiful color.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









%99 of people do not notice or care whats on your wrist. All that matters is that YOU like what you see.


----------



## Digital_1 (Jan 6, 2014)

Digital_1 said:


> Doc, on the NTH website blog I saw mention of a "first-ever collaboration with an independent co-designer/customizer (more details to follow soon)." Any information you can share on this one?


Doc, any updates on this? Looking forward to getting the Black Scopene in hand by the way.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> You would have guessed backwards.
> 
> The Odin is more blue than the Näcken.
> 
> Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


This may help illustrate.

When we pick colors for dials, we use Pantone numbers. I pick colors using the Pantone Color Wheel embedded into MS programs. The wheel format allows me to see, at a glance, how saturated (vibrant) versus unsaturated (not vibrant) they are, plus how much green versus purple is in a shade of blue, or how much green or red is in a shade of yellow.















Colors near the middle of the wheel, like 7547 C (the color we use for the Nacken Modern), are low saturation, meaning not as vibrant. Colors near the outside of the wheel, like 2955 C (the color we use on the Odin), are high saturation, meaning more vibrant.

Saturation just refers to the raw quantity of the colors within a color - how much red, how much green, how much blue, without regards to the proportions. High saturation means more color in that color, whatever colors are in it.

Because of where they are in relation to the other colors, both 2955 and 7547 would have a mix of green and purple in roughly equal proportion, making both of them fairly neutral tones of blue (neither more greenish nor more purplish).

But 2955, being more highly saturated than 7547, is going to be more vibrant, making it "more" blue. They are both neutral tones, but more vibrant/more highly saturated means that, if we were to convert from Pantone to RGB ("red-green-blue"), the sum total numerical value of all colors included would be higher.















So, 2955 (the Odin's color) has more color (the sum total of all of them - red, green, and blue) than 7547 (the Nacken's color). It's both more vibrant (because there are more of all colors), and more "blue" (because the blue value is higher).

The Odin has more colors in its color, in total (more vibrant), and there's more blue in it (more blue), even though both models are fairly neutral shades (neither more greenish nor more purplish).

Hope that all makes sense. Y'all know how much I love the "but which SHADE of blue" discussions that happen every so often.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Digital_1 said:


> Doc, any updates on this? Looking forward to getting the Black Scopene in hand by the way.


Nope.

The person we've got the collaboration with wants to handle the majority of communication and promotion regarding the project, and on his own timeline. It'll be revealed when it gets revealed. I don't know when that will be.


----------



## Digital_1 (Jan 6, 2014)

docvail said:


> Nope.
> 
> The person we've got the collaboration with wants to handle the majority of communication and promotion regarding the project, and on his own timeline. It'll be revealed when it gets revealed. I don't know when that will be.


Thanks.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> So, 2955 (the Odin's color) has more color (the sum total of all of them - red, green, and blue) than 7547 (the Nacken's color). It's both more vibrant (because there are more of all colors), and more "blue" (because the blue value is higher).
> 
> The Odin has more colors in its color, in total (more vibrant), and there's more blue in it (more blue), even though both models are fairly neutral shades (neither more greenish nor more purplish).
> 
> Hope that all makes sense. Y'all know how much I love the "but which SHADE of blue" discussions that happen every so often.


Something I'm curious about - do you know how a dial color is going to react to light before you make it? The color wheel obviously shows just one color, whereas in the really real world the Nacken MB shifts from blue to gray depending on lighting conditions, and my Huldra is quite the chameleon that can change from a fairly dark sea blue to a pretty light sky blue. These are the same watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Something I'm curious about - do you know how a dial color is going to react to light before you make it? The color wheel obviously shows just one color, whereas in the really real world *the Nacken MB shifts from blue to gray depending on lighting conditions*, and my Huldra is quite the chameleon that can change from a fairly dark sea blue to a pretty light sky blue. These are the same watch.


Yes, I seem to be aware the colors change based on the light, camera, etc..



docvail said:


> ...The dial on the Näcken is a very low saturation (not vibrant) blue. *It's almost gray. In some lights, it's hard for some people to detect that there's any blue in it.*
> 
> The dial on the Odin is a high saturation (very vibrant) blue, meant to match the color of the bezel insert, as close as we could get...


----------



## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

The Watcher said:


> it really is...as in, a true blue, like pelagos. beautiful color.
> 
> View attachment 14103129


This might be the most beautiful blue NTH sub I've seen. Finally a blue dial that has a vintage look to it. Nice job!


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Nope.
> 
> The person we've got the collaboration with wants to handle the majority of communication and promotion regarding the project, and on his own timeline. It'll be revealed when it gets revealed. I don't know when that will be.


Uh oh. Hope he doesn't take 9 years :-d


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Uh oh. Hope he doesn't take 9 years :-d


Me too. But it's his rock show. He can walk out on stage whenever he's ready.

We had some crossed signals with regards to the launch plan on that one. My bad. If I'd realized, I wouldn't have mentioned it as soon as I did. Too late to put the cat back in the bag now.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jlow28 said:


> This might be the most beautiful blue NTH sub I've seen. Finally a blue dial that has a vintage look to it. Nice job!


I'm sure I've discussed this before, but repeat discussions happen...

Like I said above, when *we* pick colors, we use Pantones. But when *I* pick Pantones, I use that color wheel, for the reasons I gave. I like being able to see the saturation and mix of colors at a glance.

When Aaron picks Pantones, he's not using MS programs. He's not looking at a wheel. He's looking at a page with color tiles in a grid, grouped together by their hue. That format doesn't give him any indication of their saturation, nor how they relate to each other.

I've long suspected that his machine or monitor makes the colors more vibrant to his eyes. But whatever the explanation, he's always picked darker, and lower saturation colors. The dial of the Näcken Modern Blue is very close to, if not the same shade of blue as was used on the Commander 300 project. They both appear gray in some lights.

The C300 was the first time he and I worked together. The original NTH Subs were only the second time. It took me two or three iterations to realize he and I were picking dramatically different colors when left on our own to choose, and that his picks were always low saturation.

There's no right or wrong. Maybe that's just what looks best to his eye. But once I realized it, I started proofing the color choices before the designs were finalized. It helped to have some actual dials and bezels in hand for comparison to what we see on screen with an illustration.

With the real product in hand, we can see how the bezel changes colors with the light, and we can try to use dial colors to match or complement the bezel.

It's challenging because the colors of either component can vary slightly from one batch to the next, the AR coating on the crystal has a blue tint, and the way the colors react to the light will vary a lot with the dial texture/finish.

"Blue" in particular has been vexing. We've used just two shades of red, and a single shade of orange. Black is black, and white is white. The results have been very constant, and thus predictable. We've been all over the map with the blues.

A matte dial like the ones in the Odin and Näcken Modern will vary less than ones with a texture or glossy finish, or both, like the Barracuda Blue, Scorpène Blue, Näcken Vintage Blue, and the Näcken Renegade. It's hard for even me to believe that we're using the same colors on some of them.

Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

As today is the birthdate of the person whose passing was the inspiration for this tribute watch, I say happy birthday to Carolina and thank you to you Chris for working so diligently to create this watch for us. Cheers!


----------



## vmarks (Dec 21, 2010)




----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Looks like the new Trident is out. The case is a huge improvement over the old slab sided MK2, and interestingly they were able to scale down the height to sub 13mm on the 38 and 40, likely taking advantage of the smaller crystal to keep the 600M WR. The most interesting part for me - quick release bracelet. I'm not positive, but this may be the first dive watch to ever have that.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Thoughts and prayers









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

For Carolina. For Camilo.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm 63% certain Melbourne used a quick release system on one of their models, I think the Sorrento.

Interesting to see the Trident has 600m WR and is only 13mm thick. That takes some of the air out of our L/XL tires.

The L/XL Sub will technically have a better thickness to WR ratio, but not by much.


Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> I'm 63% certain Melbourne used a quick release system on one of their models, I think the Sorrento.
> 
> Interesting to see the Trident has 600m WR and is only 13mm thick. That takes some of the air out of our L/XL tires.
> 
> ...


Here's a hint:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double post.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm 63% certain Melbourne used a quick release system on one of their models, I think the Sorrento.
> 
> Interesting to see the Trident has 600m WR and is only 13mm thick. That takes some of the air out of our L/XL tires.
> 
> ...


Yup, you're right, it did. Just for the record, the 38 is 12.7mm, and the 40 is just a hair under 13 at 12.95mm. The 42 is 13.4mm, so I imagine you have them well beat there since the XL Sub would be competing with that one. They needed to go to 14.6mm for the 100ATM Elite 1000 model.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

These new C60s are really formidable watches, tbh. Bracelet is those QR pins, a thin (!) pushbutton clasp with on-the-go hidden ratchet expansion, milled-sharp endlinks; the case finishing is clever and multilayered, so these look even thinner than they are (and they are really thin)... (overview e.g. 



 )

I wasn't keen on the C60's dial design leaks, but everything else about these watches is really impressive - for €1000, that kinda sets a high bar for other micros playing in/near that space. Idk how much longer brands like Halios, Zelos can play in that space - because they're getting outclassed fast, and the respective gimmicks (Halios "exclusivity", Zelos' meteorite dial stuff) imo won't hide the fact that the quality is less...


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Well, been a while since I was in this thread -been kinda busy as you may imagine from the line below this :-d ...but I thought I'd post a pic.

I had the enormous pleasure of wearing my Barracuda Vintage Black on the rather special occasion of getting married this last weekend. Happiest day of my life - this watch is going to always prompt some very special memories when I look down at my wrist in future

Good health to you all!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

HSSB said:


> Well, been a while since I was in this thread -been kinda busy as you may imagine from the line below this :-d ...but I thought I'd post a pic.
> 
> I had the enormous pleasure of wearing my Barracuda Vintage Black on the rather special occasion of getting married this last weekend. Happiest day of my life - this watch is going to always prompt some very special memories when I look down at my wrist in future
> 
> Good health to you all!


The heartiest of congratulations!!

'Cuda fits in so well on this very happy occasion, all the very best for the future.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HSSB said:


> Well, been a while since I was in this thread -been kinda busy as you may imagine from the line below this :-d ...but I thought I'd post a pic.
> 
> I had the enormous pleasure of wearing my Barracuda Vintage Black on the rather special occasion of getting married this last weekend. Happiest day of my life - this watch is going to always prompt some very special memories when I look down at my wrist in future
> 
> Good health to you all!


Awesome! Congrats on the nuptials. Here's the only marital advice you'll ever need:


----------



## HSSB (Mar 5, 2016)

Cheers Doc,

Wise advice - I shall have to print it out and stick it on the corner of the bathroom mirror to remind myself each morning 

Was actually quite funny - the photographer was wearing a Nomos, and got to admiring my NTH while he was doing the 'groom prep' bit. That is one of very, very few times in my life anyone has noticed whats on my wrist. Ended up having a bit of a chat about watches which helped calm my nerves a bit


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

HSSB said:


> Cheers Doc,
> 
> Wise advice - I shall have to print it out and stick it on the corner of the bathroom mirror to remind myself each morning
> 
> Was actually quite funny - the photographer was wearing a Nomos, and got to admiring my NTH while he was doing the 'groom prep' bit. That is one of very, very few times in my life anyone has noticed whats on my wrist. *Ended up having a bit of a chat about watches which helped calm my nerves a bit*


For me it was alcohol.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

I own a Nacken. The fold over locking mechanism on the bracelet clasp now freely swings. Do you know of any remedies to tighten up its action or does it have to be replaced? Are any of the later clasps available?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> These new C60s are really formidable watches, tbh. Bracelet is those QR pins, a thin (!) pushbutton clasp with on-the-go hidden ratchet expansion, milled-sharp endlinks; the case finishing is clever and multilayered, so these look even thinner than they are (and they are really thin)... (overview e.g.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah I think CW has really thrown down the gauntlet with the MK3 C60. The prior version was "nice," but had a number of flaws. The case was a bit bland, the 38mm was too tall, your choice of sizes was either too small or too big, the handset was a bit wonky and the wave dial looked a bit dated, etc. The MK3 basically solves all of those issues, and the subtle twin flags logo at 12 helps keep that space from looking like a barren wasteland which makes me not mind the 9 o'clock "Christopher Ward" branding. Chances are actually pretty good that I'll be picking up the 40mm sooner rather than later.

Aside from the microbrand competition that now has a much more formidable watch to contend with (is the Oceanking really 2X as nice as this, for example?) I think they're also now going to be able to go more directly at watches like the Aquis, Aquaracer, and RW Freelancer. The Tag definitely isn't 3X as nice as this, and most of those watches have half the WR. Putting it up against something like a SMP is likely still a bit of a stretch, but even that is probably not night and day better like it used to be.

It definitely makes me that much more curious to finally see what you guys have come up with for the XL sub.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

HSSB said:


> Well, been a while since I was in this thread -been kinda busy as you may imagine from the line below this :-d ...but I thought I'd post a pic.
> 
> I had the enormous pleasure of wearing my Barracuda Vintage Black on the rather special occasion of getting married this last weekend. Happiest day of my life - this watch is going to always prompt some very special memories when I look down at my wrist in future
> 
> Good health to you all!


Congrats! The VB definitely pulls off the "dress diver" role very nicely.


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)

tim_herremans said:


> I own a Nacken. The fold over locking mechanism on the bracelet clasp now freely swings. Do you know of any remedies to tighten up its action or does it have to be replaced? Are any of the later clasps available?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hit Chris up via the website:

https://nthwatches.com/apps/help-center#!how-should-i-contact-janis-trading-company


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)

Also, a watch


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tim_herremans said:


> I own a Nacken. The fold over locking mechanism on the bracelet clasp now freely swings. Do you know of any remedies to tighten up its action or does it have to be replaced? Are any of the later clasps available?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Squeeze the sides to tighten it up.


----------



## Mattedialdoc (Oct 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Squeeze the sides to tighten it up.


Ditto. I've had to do this on Rolex clasps too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

Okay thanks, that was my thought too. Just wanted to ask before I proceed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> ....... for €1000, that kinda sets a high bar for other micros playing in/near that space. Idk how much longer brands like Halios, Zelos can play in that space - because they're getting outclassed fast, and the respective gimmicks (Halios "exclusivity", Zelos' meteorite dial stuff) imo won't hide the fact that the quality is less...
> 
> View attachment 14109265
> 
> ...


Zelos can definitely "play in that space" evidenced by the old design of the case of the Helmsman, released a few years ago with design elements now contained in the new CW case. CW is just now catching up.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> Zelos can definitely "play in that space" evidenced by the old design of the case of the Helmsman, released a few years ago with design elements now contained in the new CW case. CW is just now catching up.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> There's always something that seems just vaguely "off" to me about Zelos watches. Some of them like the Mako 500M are overstyled to a cartoonish degree, and the Swordfish's dial seems kind of amateur hour as far as sandwich dials go. Their new GMT though is actually pretty restrained and "grown up" for a Zelos, and not too shabby for the asking price, at least where it is right now. After it increases to $849 near the end of the month then I'm not so sure, as that's right around where the new CW Trident GMT is.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tim_herremans said:


> Okay thanks, that was my thought too. Just wanted to ask before I proceed.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


GENTLY squeeze the sides.

Don't go all Glen Roiland on it. Power tools and toothy pliers don't have a place in this operation.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RE - ChrWARD - that was their logo the last time they made a watch I really wanted. Not knocking their quality, which I think is nice, and may be improving, but their design language peaked about 5 years ago, IMO. That was also the last time their prices made sense to me.

Also, I'm now getting conflicting reports about the actual thickness of the new Tridents, and I may have to retract my earlier comment about our tires being slightly deflated. They may in fact still be fully flated.

RE - Zelos - For some designers, like Jason Lim (Halios), less is more. For some, like Chip Yuen (Aevig), the perfect amount is more. For others, like Elshan of Zelos, more is more. They're all talented designers.

Me? I like Chip's style best, if I have to be the critic and choose just one. I think he's got the strongest instincts about when to keep going and when to stop. But as the consumer (and often as the designer), I can appreciate different approaches, depending on my mood.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

docvail said:


> GENTLY squeeze the sides.
> 
> Don't go all Glen Roiland on it. Power tools and toothy pliers don't have a place in this operation.


So you're saying to use the bench vice and give it a good torquing. Got it.

(I'll just apply some hand pressure and go from there. Or light taps with a small hammer)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I quite like the Zelos Horizon, the design stands out from the pack. Almost pulled the trigger, then I realize I have 2 NTH reserved from watchdrobe....


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I have a high regard for Halios and Zelos. I'm not sure they have significant quality deficits in comparison to Chr. Ward. At least I don't see any in the hand or on my wrist. And, some of their gimmicks add a lot of character to their watches that Chr. Ward has been lacking since they decided to go more understated on their dials and hands.

But, the new, third Trident isn't all as mind-blowingly revolutionary as the reviewers make it out to be:










Really?










I'll keep my "Mark 1" or whatever it's going to be called. It's got the good hands AND a better dial all in one package.

The crystal/bezel combo looks great though on the new ones.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tim_herremans said:


> So you're saying to use the bench vice and give it a good torquing. Got it.
> 
> (I'll just apply some hand pressure and go from there. Or light taps with a small hammer)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


One, Glen's a doctor (veterinarian, whatever), so he's been trained to hammer gently. If you ain't been trained, put down the hammer. You're not even allowed to look at a set of bolt-cutters until you've finished your first year of residency.

Two, my most-frequently-used tool is a set of regular, every-day pliers, but with masking tape wrapped around the teeth. They're great for squeezing loose safety-catches on clasps, loosening over-tightened crowns, and all manner of sundry uses.

Three, if you wear the bracelet tight enough, and flex your wrist, that catch will pop open, no matter what you do. Maybe don't wear your bracelet so tight, or lose some weight, fatty.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Sonic_driftwood said:


> I have a high regard for Halios and Zelos. I'm not sure they have significant quality deficits in comparison to Chr. Ward. At least I don't see any in the hand or on my wrist. And, some of their gimmicks add a lot of character to their watches that Chr. Ward has been lacking since they decided to go more understated on their dials and hands.
> 
> But, the new, third Trident isn't all as mind-blowingly revolutionary as the reviewers make it out to be:
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Anyone calling the MK3 "revolutionary" I think is being a bit silly. CW themselves say it's a refinement of the prior design. The case is more "right sized" for most folks, they say people were begging them for a 40mm so they made one, though only in black, curiously, and the handset is more typical mainstream modern diver, which folks will either love or hate. I never liked the old hands, so I'm good with the change. People complained about the lume so they added more of it and went to a much stronger formula of C1. It really needed some beveling and a mix of surfaces on the case to give it some character, and now it has that.

The old one was "not bad, for the money" if you wanted a 60ATM diver and could live with the 43mm size. Now it's just a genuinely nice watch, full stop, and 40/47 or 42/49 should please just about everyone. Add in CW's nearly perpetual 15% discount, and I think the price is quite reasonable for what's on offer. I wouldn't say it obliterates any of the micro divers that compete in the $700-1000 space, but brands like Halios will need to continue to bring their A game.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Good marketing, builds hype. That's how people spend money for things they don't need.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

With all the talk and hype about the new Chris Ward Tridents I had to pull out this beauty. The CW C60 Trident Day Date COSC 600. Only 200 of these were offered in 2017.

At 43mm x 13.85mm I know it's bigger than what a lot of people like, but a COSC 2836 in a dive watch rated for 600 meters for only $1100 was a steal!

This is such an elegant watch I wear it as a dress watch. The new ones don't much appeal to me as being that unique. I think the biggest appeal was the tear shaped hour hand which was iconic with the CW watches. Now they gave that up, and while the watches are nicely detailed and good amount of specs I have a hard time seeing anything that tops this.

Cheers!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nobody:

Guys in NTH thread: Let's talk Chris Ward!


Tapatalk now available over the counter in prescription strength. Claims of increased male virility not assessed by the FDA.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Chris Vail, Chris Ward, probly same person anyway.


----------



## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

I’m patiently waiting for the re-release of the Santa Cruz, I might’ve even had a dream about it last night


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Meanwhile, a swift return to the NTH Thread:



Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

qiao.feng said:


> I'm patiently waiting for the re-release of the Santa Cruz, I might've even had a dream about it last night


It'll be available again with the next 2 weeks. You should get on the waiting list with your closest NTH retailer, or be ready when we add them to the NTH website.


----------



## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

docvail said:


> It'll be available again with the next 2 weeks. You should get on the waiting list with your closest NTH retailer, or be ready when we add them to the NTH website.


As soon as the news hits, I'm all set for WAR!


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

docvail said:


> Three, if you wear the bracelet tight enough, and flex your wrist, that catch will pop open, no matter what you do. Maybe don't wear your bracelet so tight, or lose some weight, fatty.


Just used a little plastic ended hammer meant for removing link pins and the catch is staying down again like new. My 6.75" wrist is just too massive, I know. I wore the bracelet too loose for too long, then I removed a half link awhile back. Now it's much more enjoyable to wear and it doesn't bind at my wrist anymore.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> RE - ChrWARD - that was their logo the last time they made a watch I really wanted. Not knocking their quality, which I think is nice, and may be improving, but their design language peaked about 5 years ago, IMO. That was also the last time their prices made sense to me.
> 
> Also, I'm now getting conflicting reports about the actual thickness of the new Tridents, and I may have to retract my earlier comment about our tires being slightly deflated. They may in fact still be fully flated.
> 
> ...


Imo Aevig is the king of watch dials. Lots of attention to details and always fresh design elements. Especially the way he implements his logo, GS should hire him.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tim_herremans said:


> Just used a little plastic ended hammer meant for removing link pins and the catch is staying down again like new. My 6.75" wrist is just too massive, I know. I wore the bracelet too loose for too long, then I removed a half link awhile back. Now it's much more enjoyable to wear and it doesn't bind at my wrist anymore.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've lost about 30 pounds since January. I'm not positive, but it feels like all my watches are looser now, and I'm procrastinating on re-sizing them all.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

docvail said:


> I've lost about 30 pounds since January. I'm not positive, but it feels like all my watches are looser now, and I'm procrastinating on re-sizing them all.


That'll do it. Might as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> Imo Aevig is the king of watch dials. Lots of attention to details and always fresh design elements. Especially the way he implements his logo, GS should hire him.


I actually think I would give that honor to Farer, at least as far as microbrands are concerned. They just seem to keep getting better with every new release, and I really admire their willingness to do their own thing and go well off the beaten path. If I needed/wanted a chrono, I'd be taking a very long look at this. That being said, my Huldra is now one of two watches to survive several years in my collection, so Chip definitely did something right there.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

This is a good'un

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> I've lost about 30 pounds since January. I'm not positive, but it feels like all my watches are looser now, and I'm procrastinating on re-sizing them all.


resize them all and throw the spare links away.. that way you'll force to stay the same weight..


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

I need/want a chrono...

That Farer is a beauty for sure!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Dragging it back to the real, bona fide, original and one & only L & H/NTH thread again:









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Ragl said:


> Dragging it back to the real, bona fide, original and one & only L & H/NTH thread again:
> 
> View attachment 14115415
> 
> ...


Any chance for an upcoming batch of those beauties?

Love the logo and font choice!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Any chance for an upcoming batch of those beauties?
> 
> Love the logo and font choice!


Zero chance.

Forum project. Limited edition.

Plus, I'm on to other things.


----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

Are you sure, Chris?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Seikogi said:


> Any chance for an upcoming batch of those beauties?
> 
> Love the logo and font choice!


That Orthos does look a little bit like an Odin, if you squint.


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

Chris, I need a brown 'cuda in my life. When is the next run expected?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RPDK said:


> Chris, I need a brown 'cuda in my life. When is the next run expected?


Soon.

We'd planned on having them available within the next 2-3 weeks, but it appears we need to re-do the bezel inserts on that model.

Stay tuned for updated timeline.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> That Orthos does look a little bit like an Odin, if you squint.


Except the odin is wearable by guys my size, which is why i sold the C3 and an odin is incoming!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Maybe I'm missing something on the sites, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to subscribe so I get notified when the barracuda comes back in stock.

I subscribed on nth website but haven't gotten a confirmation email. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> Maybe I'm missing something on the sites, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to subscribe so I get notified when the barracuda comes back in stock.
> 
> I subscribed on nth website but haven't gotten a confirmation email.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


There isn't a confirmation email. When did you subscribe? We sent out an email blast about 5 hours ago.

Watch your email, follow us on Instagram, there's not much to it. When we have news to share, we make a pretty big noise.

You might want to get on a waiting list with your closest NTH retailer. More than 75% of what we've got coming in has already been sold.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> We'd planned on having them available within the next 2-3 weeks, but it appears we need to re-do the bezel inserts on that model.


Does this apply to the Bluracudas as well?


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

^^ Blur-acuda? Jk









Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Does this apply to the Bluracudas as well?


I was just responding to the question about the Barracuda Brown.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

EL_GEEk said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Those hands are brushed steel aren't they? They look kinda white in that pic, and boy do they look good!

I cant resist a black dial/white hand combo!


----------



## Keefy (Oct 16, 2016)

EL_GEEk said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Those hands are brushed steel aren't they? They look kinda white in that pic, and boy do they look good!

I cant resist a black dial/white hand combo!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Keefy said:


> Those hands are brushed steel aren't they? They look kinda white in that pic, and boy do they look good!
> 
> I cant resist a black dial/white hand combo!


Brushed steel, not white.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> These new C60s are really formidable watches, tbh. Bracelet is those QR pins, a thin (!) pushbutton clasp with on-the-go hidden ratchet expansion, milled-sharp endlinks; the case finishing is clever and multilayered, so these look even thinner than they are (and they are really thin)... (overview e.g.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you are applying to much logic here. Brand affinity and brand loyalty is something that seems to overrun all else. People pay 20k for a Rolex blro when you can buy a steinhart for $600? It's about names and brands as much as it is about specs and value. People want the cool factor and a brand like halios has that. And his quality continues to improve as does the hong Kong micro scene.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> These new C60s are really formidable watches, tbh. Bracelet is those QR pins, a thin (!) pushbutton clasp with on-the-go hidden ratchet expansion, milled-sharp endlinks; the case finishing is clever and multilayered, so these look even thinner than they are (and they are really thin)... (overview e.g.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





JLS36 said:


> I think you are applying to much logic here. Brand affinity and brand loyalty is something that seems to overrun all else. People pay 20k for a Rolex blro when you can buy a steinhart for $600? It's about names and brands as much as it is about specs and value. People want the cool factor and a brand like halios has that. And his quality continues to improve as does the hong Kong micro scene.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I agree that the CW is an impressive piece, even compared to the better quality microbrands. But that's been true of previous iterations as well, I think. I never thought about it in these terms, but CW seems to have maintained a position just above other micros, certainly in price, and arguably in quality.

If the new CW was consistently priced just a hair above other micros, mine included, I think it would present itself as a sort of benchmark, or gate-keeper for micros looking to move upmarket. Brands looking to play in the same price range, or above it, would theoretically need to justify that price with the quality of the product.

All that said, the CW brand is a bit mercurial. Is the brand identity about luxury or bang for the buck, being British or being Swiss, specs or style? The messaging seems to have been diluted and muddied, with the frequent logo changes, and the every-other-week discounting.

I can't say I know, or even have a strong opinion about how well the brand is positioned for the space it seems to want to occupy in the market. At $900 on a bracelet, it's up against some stiff competition in the entry-level luxury space, from the likes of Alpina, Longines, and Oris. At the typical 15% discount, say, $775, it's a compelling alternative to the pricier micros like Raven and H20. At the occasional 30% discount, it's under $650, and a real bargain.

But, all that rebranding and discounting takes its toll, for certain, judging by the online discussion, which seems to indicate they're losing brand loyalty. I suspect the watering-down of their design language is also a negative on balance. While many may think the less in-your-face handset and no-texture dial are improvements, I think they're losing character, which also contributes to a loss of interest in the brand.

I think it's dangerous whenever any brand starts to do "product-design-by-checklist", wherein brands start to market their new models with a laundry-list of features, yet overlook the aesthetic aspect, which is what really gets people interested.

I don't think Jason is deliberately trying to build any "exclusivity" mystique around Halios. I think he's just doing things his way. Likewise, I think Zelos has always embraced the latest trend in gimmicky features, because there's always a market for that stuff.

"The Hong Kong micro scene" implies that there's some real distinction between brands that are transparent about the watches being produced in China, and those which portray themselves as being made in Europe. I know many don't believe me (or don't want to), but there really isn't much, if any substantial difference.

Most of the components are being made in China, regardless of what the brands say. The differences in quality, often minimal, are largely due to using better vendors, and having tighter control over the production process and quality standards.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys on the internet: "Blogs never post negative reviews."

The Time Bum: "Challenge accepted."

Aquatico Oyster and Bronze Blue Angels | The Time Bum


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^^^Sometimes ignorance really is bliss.

I can't begin to count how many times I've had to explain our QC standards after someone put a watch under high magnification, looking for imperfections. If you look at anything closely enough, for long enough, you'll either find imperfections, or imagine you do. 

The key to enjoyment isn't proving to yourself that something is perfect, it's in not obsessing over finding the potential imperfections.

All that said, some stuff is impossible to miss, even with the naked eye looking at it from a normal viewing distance. Having examples of low quality purchased at a low price does help illustrate why quality does tend to go up as prices rise, and why a watch really is more than just the sum of its component parts.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Guys on the internet: "Blogs never post negative reviews."
> 
> The Time Bum: "Challenge accepted."
> 
> Aquatico Oyster and Bronze Blue Angels | The Time Bum


<<<guy on the internet says rarely but I do like to see negative reviews because noway everything is good.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I agree that the CW is an impressive piece, even compared to the better quality microbrands. But that's been true of previous iterations as well, I think. I never thought about it in these terms, but CW seems to have maintained a position just above other micros, certainly in price, and arguably in quality.
> 
> If the new CW was consistently priced just a hair above other micros, mine included, I think it would present itself as a sort of benchmark, or gate-keeper for micros looking to move upmarket. Brands looking to play in the same price range, or above it, would theoretically need to justify that price with the quality of the product.
> 
> All that said, the CW brand is a bit mercurial. Is the brand identity about luxury or bang for the buck, being British or being Swiss, specs or style? The messaging seems to have been diluted and muddied, with the frequent logo changes, and the every-other-week discounting.


I think CW is really more of a "boutique" brand than a traditional micro at this point. They still sell direct, but direct vs. having retail partners is no longer really a distinction on what is a micro vs. what is not. I would definitely say NTH is a microbrand, and obviously you no longer have to buy direct from the website. Previous Chris Ward watches were certainly well made with good specifications, but there was always something a bit..."not quite there yet" about their design language.

I own nearly a dozen of their straps and so I've been paying attention to them for awhile, and while the straps are great, none of their actual watches ever interested me enough to want to actually buy one. There's nothing necessarily wrong with the sort of case shape on the old C65, but it's extremely generic. Literally anyone could've made it. The new C65 was the first watch where it looked like they put some real effort into case design as opposed to just making a reasonably well finished generic movement holder. I feel like the new C60 and watches like the Grand Malvern are going in that same direction. They're really _trying_ now. Perhaps not always successfully, but despite losing the old hands and wave dial (details I would argue were just cribbed from other watches) I think the MK3 C60 will be more successful and make more of a mark than its predecessors did.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Have a great weekend all!

Sry for the iphone potato cam.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

Seikogi said:


> Have a great weekend all! Sry for the iphone potato cam.


Das ist gut! :-!


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

So, what is this I *think* I've read (a few weeks ago maybe) about an "XL" Sub?? I'm sorry if it has been recently discussed, or if I'm confused and it was mentioned sarcastically, but are there more details available? Being a Phantom, Specter and previous Orthos owner, I actually like 42+mm more than 40mm (but I'm not getting rid of my Santa Cruz ever!! lol). I mean, a 42+mm Santa Fe... *insert excited wide eyed emoji here*

Just curious.

Thanks.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gelocks said:


> So, what is this I *think* I've read (a few weeks ago maybe) about an "XL" Sub?? I'm sorry if it has been recently discussed, or if I'm confused and it was mentioned sarcastically, but are there more details available? Being a Phantom, Specter and previous Orthos owner, I actually like 42+mm more than 40mm (but I'm not getting rid of my Santa Cruz ever!! lol). I mean, a 42+mm Santa Fe... *insert excited wide eyed emoji here*
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> Thanks.


We're working on a plus-sized version of the NTH Sub, somewhat inspired by the original Deep-Sea Dweller.

Bezel diameter is 43.75m, case diameter is 41.75mm, 22mm lug width, 51mm lug length. Will be very thin given the WR rating.

Case design is done. Still working on the rest. We need @synaptyx to stop screwing around with domestic duties, like tearing down garden sheds, and get back on the important tasks of design.

We're probably not going to launch the new model with as many versions as we had when we launched the original NTH Subs. No plans for a white-dialed model yet.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

White dialed you say?

I am sitting here at the Tattoo shop. I could just get the NTH I always wanted and I would never lose it. But with your constantly new planned sexy AF watches. I could never choose one so I might just sit this one out and enjoy watching my Wife squirm lol.

Forgive my words, I had quite the potent mixture last night haha.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I like how these came out...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I like how these came out...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very pretty. I like this one a lot more than the Scorpene. The markers are so big on that watch that I think it actually hurts the at a glance legibility because there's just so much...stuff...on the dial. That's definitely not the case here. Very clean, very sharp.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

docvail said:


> I like how these came out...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful dial and the red plays nicely with the blue.

Having said that, I generally prefer boring neutral dials, that would be a fun one to wear though. I'd still like to get the Nazario Sauro, when that gets remade and also looking forward to the next Nazario reveal to see which I prefer.

I currently love the Renegade.. but would consider trading it up for a vintage black, white, possibly blue. Just those though. I won't sell/trade it until I know in person as I don't want to have regrets.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

It sucks we cant see these in person, i want this Nazario so bas but unsure if blue shade on the dial and blue on the bezel insert match well. I don't like the match of these on the blue scorpene and I have a feeling same blue tones are used on this one too. But again thats on photos and zoomed in. in real life it may be completely different

Clock is ticking before these sell out, must make up my mind soon ugh


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Seven minutes until the new GoT episode.

The hardest part about the arrival of my Bluracuda will be taking this beauty off after wearing it almost exclusively for the last year.

Cheers, Gents.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> It sucks we cant see these in person, i want this Nazario so bas but unsure if blue shade on the dial and blue on the bezel insert match well. I don't like the match of these on the blue scorpene and I have a feeling same blue tones are used on this one too. But again thats on photos and zoomed in. in real life it may be completely different
> 
> Clock is ticking before these sell out, must make up my mind soon ugh


You want to know the Pantone numbers?

EDIT/PS - For real, though. That's why there's a returns policy. Buy it, and if you don't like it, don't wear it. Just send it back for a refund.

Or, even better, wait until they've been sold out a month or two, then put it up on eBay for $100 over full retail. I $hlt you not, I've seen Nazarios and other popular models go for a premium like that.

EDIT 2/PPS - We only made 50. Last I checked with Keil, he had maybe 20-ish left unsold, and that was 2-3 weeks ago. Like almost every model, these look even better in real-life. Once they start shipping, and those real-world pics start popping up on IG and elsewhere, they're not going to last long.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You want to know the Pantone numbers?
> 
> EDIT/PS - For real, though. That's why there's a returns policy. Buy it, and if you don't like it, don't wear it. Just send it back for a refund.
> 
> ...


Thanks Doc.
I reached out to John to get one. 
Renders were a killer but I waited for a real pic to pop up first. When I saw the post, it was an immediate, I gotta have it feeling.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Thanks Doc.
> I reached out to John to get one.
> Renders were a killer but I waited for a real pic to pop up first. When I saw the post, it was an immediate, I gotta have it feeling.


Like the first time I saw my wife's backside.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cerb today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Yesterday's watch, posted today


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> Yesterday's watch, posted today.


That sort of punctuality will propel you into the upper echelons of this organization.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> I like how these came out...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've been fighting it but what can I do when you flash those eyes my way. So once again I've been caught in your snare. ;-)

Also you did well in working with Watchgauge. John's a great guy although somehow I feel like I'm cheating on you when I buy from him. :think:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> I've been fighting it but what can I do when you flash those eyes my way. So once again I've been caught in your snare. ;-)
> 
> Also you did well in working with Watchgauge. John's a great guy although somehow I feel like I'm cheating on you when I buy from him. :think:


Now you're just somebody that I used to know...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Love these vintage NTHs. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

That's perfect!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> We're working on a plus-sized version of the NTH Sub, somewhat inspired by the original Deep-Sea Dweller.
> 
> Bezel diameter is 43.75m, case diameter is 41.75mm, 22mm lug width, 51mm lug length. Will be very thin given the WR rating.
> 
> ...


Sounds good!
Can't wait to see how these turn out.

Thank for the info!


----------



## Fluffyfreak505 (Jan 16, 2016)

hwa said:


> Love these vintage NTHs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That watch is the SS equivalent of meth. My god is it awesome!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Fluffyfreak505 said:


> That watch is the SS equivalent of meth. My god is it awesome!


It's interesting. Obviously Doc's and Tudor's bezel designs are very different. Take those differences away though, and the watches start to look pretty similar.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I love my Amphion.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> It's interesting. Obviously Doc's and Tudor's bezel designs are very different. Take those differences away though, and the watches start to look pretty similar.
> 
> View attachment 14126707


Aside from case and handset, which are pretty much the same, the Nacken dial offers a LOT more pop. And this $5 jubilee shakes and rattles like it should!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

Omegafanboy said:


> I love my Amphion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a beauty!


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

It looks fantastic in a bezel-less case and vibes well with the vintage dial. Although, I am not a true fan of modding in this sort of way. If NTH ever offered a vintage inspired bezel-less release, I’d love to see it. But, that’s another case design ha.

36-38mm w/o bezel or 40mm with bezel is the perfect size for my wrist but I’m still looking forward to seeing the XL line on others wrists. ☕


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



tim_herremans said:


> It looks fantastic in a bezel-less case and vibes well with the vintage dial. Although, I am not a true fan of modding in this sort of way. If NTH ever offered a vintage inspired bezel-less release, I'd love to see it. But, that's another case design ha.
> 
> 36-38mm w/o bezel or 40mm with bezel is the perfect size for my wrist but I'm still looking forward to seeing the XL line on others wrists. ☕
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It was as much to see if I could solve the problem of sticking a 9015 into a 2824 case, formerly thought to be impossible due to stem height difference.

Not anymore!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Good luck to whoever's planning to pre-order a Renegade, Scorpene or Odin Black tomorrow. Hopefully you get what you want, with no problems. 

I'm hoping we can start pre-orders on the Odin Blue, Barracuda Blue, and the Santa Cruz by the end of this week, or early next.

Still waiting on the rest to get here, so...I dunno, maybe by the week of 20-24 May, we'll be ready to sell/ship on all the other versions.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Black Odin Date nailed! Think I’ll leave it a diver. Hmmm. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, beads...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^Had these in the works for a while. Not a whole lot available, but saw an opportunity to order fewer than 300 pieces, and had to jump on it.

Get 'em before they're gone, people.


----------



## Mattedialdoc (Oct 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14128935
> 
> 
> ^Had these in the works for a while. Not a whole lot available, but saw an opportunity to order fewer than 300 pieces, and had to jump on it.
> ...


Is the clasp on this BOR the same as the regular bracelet ?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mattedialdoc said:


> Is the clasp on this BOR the same as the regular bracelet ?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep, same clasp.

Only because I'm anticipating someone asking - I have no idea if they'll fit on any other watches. I just shipped all of them off to our warehouse, and I don't have any other watches here, which I could use to check, even if I still had the bracelets here.

They were made specifically for the NTH Subs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4949879&share_fid=13788&share_type=t

I sell *watches*. I don't run a parts store.

If you buy a modified watch, I'm not selling you the parts to restore it to original condition.

The FAQs on our site are crystal clear on this...










If you buy a modified watch, ask the seller for the original parts. If the original parts are damaged, because they were modded, live with it.

Or, don't modify your NTH, and don't buy a modified NTH. Maybe think about selling the watch if you don't like it in its original condition, before butchering it.

I'm going to have to start requiring people to send their watches back here, and charging higher prices for parts and service if the this keeps up.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Dude bought a bahia for $250 and wants a rare spare part to return it to full value? What’s in it for the good doctor?

Doc, bro, you should sell that spare crown for, let’s see, $650!

(There’s a reason those nths I’ve recased are still mounted on 9015s, gents. It’s because I can put ‘em back just like doc built them, no harm no foul, and out of warranty anyway!)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Just ordered some beads.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Dude bought a bahia for $250 and wants a rare spare part to return it to full value? What's in it for the good doctor?
> 
> Doc, bro, you should sell that spare crown for, let's see, $650!
> 
> ...


You're not on FB, or if you are, you don't stalk my personal page, because if you did, you'd know I did *EXACTLY* that with a guy who wouldn't accept that we don't sell casebacks.

*True Story...*

Our boy @thewatcher sold his Renegade. The dude who bought it wrote me to ask for a replacement caseback, because his was all scratched to hell.

Come again? Who sells casebacks? Did the sales listing show and/or disclose the scratches? If not, take it up with the seller.

We told him we don't sell casebacks.

He wouldn't have it. He said we're legally required to sell replacement parts.

I told him I'd sell him the caseback, for $650, and that it would come with all the other parts needed to make a watch, and that we'd do the assembly for him, pre-shipping, at no extra charge.

He didn't think that was funny.

I wondered, who'd he buy it from, that it was all beat to hell? How does a caseback on a practically new watch get all scratched up? So I looked it up.

The Watcher sold it? Seriously? No way.

I'm scrolling through the pics, when I see it - our boy never even removed the protective sticky from the case-back. It was still there, in the pics of the sales listing.

So I write the guy back - bro, I know who sold you the watch, and I'm looking at the listing. The cover is still on it, so how did the case-back get all scratched up? What the crap are you trying to pull here?

"I wasn't happy with the accuracy, so I had it regulated, and the watchmaker scratched it all up when he had it."

Whoa, hold the phone. There's a lot to unpack there.

First, if old man Shaky Hands scratched your case back, why not demand he refinish it, rather than throwing veiled threats about potential legal action my way?

Second, if it wasn't running well, why not contact us first? It was still under warranty. If it wasn't running within spec, we'd have regulated it for you.

Third, you voided the warranty. No matter what else is wrong with it, I don't want to know about it. No telling what Shaky Hands did when he had his creepy old-man digits inside the case.

"I didn't want to deal with the watchmaker again, because he was such a pain, and I didn't realize your warranty was transferable."

So...c'mon, man up, Hoss. Don't go starting trouble in town. Stay on the ranch and mind the herd.

It's a caseback. You don't see it when you're wearing the watch. Being scratched up isn't stopping you from enjoying it. You're worried about resale, but, Dude - you *JUST* bought it!

---

We get a handful of parts requests every week. Most from people who clearly didn't read the FAQ's. We ask them all for pics of the parts needing replacement. It's usually obvious who's looking for mod parts. They never come back with pics of the parts they want to replace.

I stock replacement parts so that no one can say, "I won't buy an NTH because microbrands can't supply replacement parts." How is it going to work out if I sell all my spare parts to jackwagons who can't leave a good watch alone, and want to mod them?

@Jelliottz mods watches. He's modded some of mine. He keeps the original parts safe, so he can revert to original condition if he ever decides to sell. He knows what he's doing.

You pays your money, you takes your chances. I'm in the watch business, not the parts business. I don't want to know from guys who buy a used watch, knowing it's jacked up, then want to come to me looking for help fixing it.

If you buy a jacked-up watch used, you bought a used, jacked-up watch, not a project for us to deal with.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Another true story...

Had a guy email us last week. The bracelet on his 2+ year old NTH Sub broke, and he wants to know how he sends it back for repair.

Come again? We don't repair broken bracelets. How did you "break" a stainless steel bracelet? Were you exposed to gamma radiation, Banner? That's not covered under warranty.

So we pointed him to the replacement bracelets on the website.

He wasn't happy. How dare we suggest he buy a replacement for a part not covered under warranty, after the warranty had expired? He was snarky to Julie (if you want to see my inner Ranger come out, send my virtual assistant a snarky reply, and you'll get to meet him).

I asked for clarification. What part broke? Is it the clasp? We can sell just the clasp.

Nope. Not the clasp. Here's a pic (one of the screws is gone).

Uhm...help me out here. It looks like a screw backed out. Is that what happened? You lost a screw?

"Yes".

Hoss, that ain't "broken". That's a lost screw. You didn't put thread-locker on it when you sized the bracelet, 2 years ago, and now, 2 years later, it backed out, and you lost it.

"Lost" isn't "broken". If you lost the whole damned watch, you wouldn't tell people it wasn't working.

We don't stock screws. They're not universal, or generic. I don't know the part number. I'm not giving you the email for the owner of the bracelet vendor. I don't even have it.

You guys here, you know, that bracelet will go from 6" to 9", no problem, because we included 2 additional/extra links with every NTH Sub.

"I lost both of them, somehow."

Uhm...help me out here. You *SIZED* the bracelet. You removed links. Even if you lost the 2 extra links we sent with the watch, what happened to *ALL* the other links you took out of the bracelet???

The warranty doesn't cover lost screws. We don't sell individual screws, or link-screw pairs. We shipped the watch with a built-in solution to misplaced links/screws. If you somehow managed to lose every link/screw that came with the watch, except for the ones still attached to it, buy a bracelet.

He wasn't happy. I'm waiting to see his "Doc's an a-hole" thread pop up.

Seriously. I keep all these emails. I have a special "crank file" for these exchanges, so I can easily find them and post screen-shots when the bashing starts.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

There’s a difference between modding and wrecking. It’s really not a fine line. 

Pulling a caseback and dropping the movement and dial is cake; it gets progressively harder from there. Practice on a busted invicta! 

You should not be altering a $650 watch if you can’t afford to dump it for, say, $250 when things go wrong. And if you buy a $650 watch for $250, you gets what you pays for. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I can't tell if this is ok to say now, or not, but....I prefer my dive watches to have a bezel, but that bezel-less Nacken looks really sharp!

And, beads of rice? You sneaky devil!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Toonces said:


> I can't tell if this is ok to say now, or not, but....I prefer my dive watches to have a bezel, but that bezel-less Nacken looks really sharp!
> 
> And, beads of rice? You sneaky devil!


I look at it like this: if you love the Sub but not the Explorer, you're only getting 50%

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> There's a difference between modding and wrecking. It's really not a fine line.
> 
> Pulling a caseback and dropping the movement and dial is cake; it gets progressively harder from there. Practice on a busted invicta!
> 
> ...


Agreed. I wish I could say this is the first time I've had to deal with it, but it isn't, which is why I posted about it.

Maybe half a dozen times, I've gotten emails from guys who bought a used watch, on the forum or eBay, and were complaining about quality issues.

Not modded watches. Not malfunctioning. Not truly defective. Just "this looks a little off to me" sort of BS.

I mean...c'mon.

If the guy who bought the watch originally was happy with it, which we know he was, if he didn't return it to us on delivery, but you saw exactly what you're complaining about in the sales listing, and you bought it anyway (cheap!), don't come to me expecting me to fix/replace whatever under warranty, or even sell you a part.

Think about it. Even a scratched dial - if it was scratched when we shipped it (and I'd bet $100 to $1 it wasn't), no one would accept it if the scratch was "obvious", and if it was overlooked, all this time, then it isn't "obvious".

But, how do we know someone didn't crack the case, remove the innards, scratch the dial in the process, then put it all back together, and sell it cheap on eBay?

I've seen the listings - pics or description mention the rough spot in the lume, or the speck of whatever, or the slight misalignment, or the ground-down crown. I know you knew about these issues when you bought the watch. I know what you paid. I know why it was sold cheap.

Trust me. My momma didn't raise no suckers. I can Google as well as anyone. If you try something shady, I'll KNOW.

Coming to me looking for us to sort it out like we did something wrong is shady. If you aren't happy with the condition, don't buy it, or take it up with the seller. Don't make me explain our policies to you. They're the same policies every other company on the planet has, because of exactly this type of BS.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hmmm...skipped post/double post. Ain't seen that one before.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> I look at it like this: if you love the Sub but not the Explorer, you're only getting 50%
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But it's the good 50%.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

The bor bracelet description says "straight, solid endlinks" but the render looks to have fitted endlinks. 

While I'm pretty sure it's a fitted endlink bracelet I just want to confirm.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> The bor bracelet description says "straight, solid endlinks" but the render looks to have fitted endlinks.
> 
> While I'm pretty sure it's a fitted endlink bracelet I just want to confirm.


Good catch.

It's curved/fitted.

This is why I shouldn't build ecommerce products while drunk.

I'm assuming I was drunk.

The only other possible explanation is I copy/pasted the description from the Acionna bracelet, and missed that word.

Even-money which is the correct explanation.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Good catch.
> 
> It's curved/fitted.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. Just noticed the pic you posted earlier as well.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> Thanks for the reply. Just noticed the pic you posted earlier as well.


No worries. Thanks for the catch.

Turns out, I copied it from the text of the Oyster bracelet for the Subs, which was copied from the text for the Acionna bracelet.

I'm amazed you caught it. All the emails I get had me convinced no one looked below the pics on the product pages, to read the text.

"I was on your website, looking at this product, and didn't see the specs."

"They're on that page, with that product, under the image."

"Oh."


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

BoR ordered. It'll go nice with my Devil Ray duvet cover from Red Bubble.









Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> BoR ordered. It'll go nice with my Devil Ray duvet cover from Red Bubble.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> You're not on FB, or if you are, you don't stalk my personal page, because if you did, you'd know I did *EXACTLY* that with a guy who wouldn't accept that we don't sell casebacks.
> 
> *True Story...*
> 
> ...


ah, yes. the great caseback caper. as stories go, that's one for the rafters. gotta love f29

via Imgflip Meme Generator

get your new sub releases soon gentlemen...


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

The Watcher said:


> get your new sub releases soon gentlemen...
> 
> View attachment 14129485


On order, waiting patiently. Thanks for the with-date pic, confirms my correct choice.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

BoR looks great on these Sauro, this one being a Watchgecko with finagled hollow end links.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

yankeexpress said:


> On order, waiting patiently. Thanks for the with-date pic, confirms my correct choice.


+1


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> On order, waiting patiently. Thanks for the with-date pic, confirms my correct choice.


Which way is correct - w/ date? Some Santa Cruz photos w/ date helped convince me I wanted nothing to do with date on that model.

I have been thinking this might be a good model to get with date. Seems the window has beveled edges which looks nice. Lower looks penalty required to get the convenience of the date function.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

BOR bracelets now sold out.

Sales of Odin Black, Nacken Renegade, and Scorpene Black are open.

We're still waiting on 22 pieces of those models (sum of all 3 models), so, if you order one from the NTH website, don't freak out if you get an email explaining that it won't ship right away. I had to ship all the retailers' inventory to those guys first. I'm not 100% certain when we'll get the rest, but I'm hoping we'll be able to get them all in, through QC, and ready to ship to customers by early next week.

3:40am.

I'm going to sleep now.

Chris is tired.


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

I'm glad I jumped on the BOR during my lunch break, I would have missed out if I hadn't.

I figured there was risk of them selling out that fast!


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

oh man BoR sold out. I'm glad I bought one! Maybe should have ordered +1


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> BOR bracelets now sold out.


Holy crap that was fast. Missed out this time; I wanted to get to know my Bluracuda on the Oyster before I made the jump.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Disneydave said:


> BoR ordered. It'll go nice with my Devil Ray duvet cover from Red Bubble.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This brings to mind some wisdom from "Fight Club":



> *Tyler:* Do you know what a duvet is?
> *Narrator:* A comforter.
> *Tyler: * It's a blanket. Just a blanket. Why do guys like you and I know what a duvet is? Is this essential to our survival in the hunter-gatherer sense of the word? No. What are we, then?
> *Narrator: * I don't know. Consumers.


Sometimes I end up in a thought spiral that goes a little like this:

"Why am I buying another watch? Do I really need it?"

"No. But I work hard, make decent money, and provide for my family. The bills get paid and the retirement savings are on track. I should be able to buy myself something nice every once in a while, and watches are the only nice things I'm interested in. I don't care about clothes. I bought most of my wardrobe at Target. I don't care about cars. My truck is reliable and it gets me where I need to go. Travel is nice, but I have a toddler to raise, so this isn't really the right time in life for that."

"Ooh, look! BoR bracelet!"


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Good catch.
> 
> It's curved/fitted.
> 
> ...


We'll spend the day creating alternative explanations. Hopefully, each more specious and scandalous than the next

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Glad I jumped on the BoR. Said duvet cover / blanket still in stock. Just saying...

But seriously, was that intentional, or is it just redbubble adding the Devil Ray logo to a randomly selected item?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Holy crap that was fast. Missed out this time; I wanted to get to know my Bluracuda on the Oyster before I made the jump.


I'm trying to sort out getting more.

Ordinarily, my MOQ on bracelets is 300 pieces.

This was sort of a special circumstance, which enabled me to get 23. There was a bit of a mix-up in production, and so I might be able to get another 25, due to the mistake. I'm still trying to sort it out.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Disneydave said:


> Glad I jumped on the BoR. Said duvet cover / blanket still in stock. Just saying...
> 
> But seriously, was that intentional, or is it just redbubble adding the Devil Ray logo to a randomly selected item?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Wait...you're saying you DIDN'T order the duvet cover?


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

docvail said:


> Wait...you're saying you DIDN'T order the duvet cover?
> 
> View attachment 14130163


Lol, no, sorry. But likely a shirt or two (or 3).

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Next episode of Doc's House Calls is up.






Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I got the last BOR bracelet in the middle of the night last night. I know this because I had two in my cart however when I went to check out it dropped my order to one making my rewards coupon no longer workable. :-( After I placed my order for the one they where gone. :-!


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

3WR said:


> Which way is correct - w/ date? Some Santa Cruz photos w/ date helped convince me I wanted nothing to do with date on that model.
> 
> I have been thinking this might be a good model to get with date. Seems the window has beveled edges which looks nice. Lower looks penalty required to get the convenience of the date function.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You talking Gen 1 Santa Cruz, or Gen 2? Gen 2 (the one you can order soon) has the date at 6:00, if you weren't aware:


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

The rarely seen Nazario


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rarely seen in an image that large and high-res.

Next time, not so large and high-res, yeah?


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I’ll put my best man on it Doc. Additionally, sizing and resizing pictures is not my strong suit. I’m lucky if they even post sometimes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> I'll put my best man on it Doc. Additionally, sizing and resizing pictures is not my strong suit. I'm lucky if they even post sometimes.


The good news with sizing an image is that there's zero chance of a screw falling out later.

Yeah, I just went there.

"I've never heard anyone make a funny joke about a watch falling off someone's wrist."

Me: "Hold my beer..."


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

On what planet are you legally obligated to supply someone with a new caseback? That seems beyond insane. Also yes, any watchmaker that can't handle a watch without wrecking the finish on the caseback shouldn't be allowed anywhere NEAR an actual movement which is considerably more delicate than said caseback. Just polish them out. Or you know, ignore it because it's a friggen caseback.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> On what planet are you legally obligated to supply someone with a new caseback? That seems beyond insane. Also yes, any watchmaker that can't handle a watch without wrecking the finish on the caseback shouldn't be allowed anywhere NEAR an actual movement which is considerably more delicate than said caseback. Just polish them out. Or you know, ignore it because it's a friggen caseback.


On *THIS* planet, Dave.

No, seriously, I have no idea where he thought that line of argument was going, but I do know it didn't go where hoped.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

consider the possibility that the "watchmaker" was the buyer.



Davekaye90 said:


> On what planet are you legally obligated to supply someone with a new caseback? That seems beyond insane. Also yes, any watchmaker that can't handle a watch without wrecking the finish on the caseback shouldn't be allowed anywhere NEAR an actual movement which is considerably more delicate than said caseback. Just polish them out. Or you know, ignore it because it's a friggen caseback.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Whenever I post those sorts of "wait till you guys hear this" sorts of stories, in my mind, they're funny, but...maybe they sound like I'm ranting.

I'm not.

99% of the people I deal with are cool, reasonable, courteous enough, whatever. The vast majority of support requests we receive get handled completely without drama.

It's the 1% crazy people, or crazy situations, which get stuck in my mind, because, they're crazy.

It's not just me. It's every microbrand owner I talk to, plus the watchmakers, etc. We all have the same "you won't believe this" sorts of stories.

It was the same thing when I was growing up, listening to the real estate sales talk over the dinner table. There's nothing interesting about the person who had entirely reasonable expectations, clearly communicated them, got what they expected, and went off happy.

That ain't good dinner conversation. Nobody cares.

Admit it, y'all like hearing about the crazy. I do too. Stories without a bit of crazy ain't worth telling.

I can prove it. Look at this:









Nice guy. We got that situation sorted out with no drama. He's happy, and did us a solid with that feedback online.

Boring as hell, am I right? Would you buy a coffee table book with nothing but these sorts of stories?

No, you wouldn't.

If I ever write a book, believe me, you'll want to read it, because it'll be a few hundred pages of the most riotously bat-$hlt insane stories you've ever heard.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Whenever I post those sorts of "wait till you guys hear this" sorts of stories, in my mind, they're funny, but...maybe they sound like I'm ranting.
> 
> I'm not.
> 
> ...


Tom Hanks' plane crashed and he washed up on an island. A day later, a search plane found him and he made it home safely. Not a great movie.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Currently have the NTH Dolphin on loan and sized for my wife.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

hwa said:


> Dude bought a bahia for $250 and wants a rare spare part to return it to full value? What's in it for the good doctor?


Hey now.. at least I asked nicely, and was perfectly fine with "no" as an answer. Like most other life situations, I don't make the cut for the "1%". b-)

Like I told doc, I got a screaming deal on an awesome watch.. it would have been icing on the cake if I could replace the crown.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Great video. 
I am really enjoying these.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tc3 said:


> Hey now.. at least I asked nicely, and was perfectly fine with "no" as an answer. Like most other life situations, I don't make the cut for the "1%". b-)
> 
> Like I told doc, I got a screaming deal on an awesome watch.. it would have been icing on the cake if I could replace the crown.


That exchange went WAAAAYYYYY better than I was fearing.

Thank you for not making it a sleepless night for me. You're a gentleman and a scholar.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Great video.
> I am really enjoying these.


Please hold all your applause, and just throw money.


----------



## parsig9 (Jul 28, 2015)

This just in. First NTH. Color is amazing.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Funny thing, I’ve got a caseback for a Rolex Milsub... Every time I call Switzerland to ask them to replace the part that fell off...


Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Doc gotta eat, too. That’s all I’m saying. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

parsig9 said:


> This just in. First NTH. Color is amazing.


Thats THE combo


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ I was just coming on here to say the same thing. That watch pairs oh so well with that strap.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

A very nice blue Doc....well done...quick pic...I'll post more tomorrow









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

that nacken... Anyway. doc, Watch wonderland just confirmed with me that they will have stocks coming in the next batch!


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

parsig9 said:


>


I'm glad that you guys are diggin' the OD & yellow stripe on the bluey hueys of the s'Nacken...I love the strap but I am not at all feelin the color.

Khaki strap with a white stripe? Ooooh, yeah.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

azsuprasm said:


> I'm glad that you guys are diggin' the OD & yellow stripe on the bluey hueys of the s'Nacken...I love the strap but I am not at all feelin the color.
> 
> Khaki strap with a white stripe? Ooooh, yeah.


I'm going to strap mine with a ballistic bronze/brown nato strap once I get the watch haha


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

liquidtension said:


> I'm going to strap mine with a ballistic bronze/brown nato strap once I get the watch haha


Love heavy 3-ring zulus! Good choice.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

the 3 ring zulu is inspired by TGV..


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

It is starting to show a few knocks, and I can no longer hand wind it but it is still a favorite.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

JakeJD said:


> You talking Gen 1 Santa Cruz, or Gen 2? Gen 2 (the one you can order soon) has the date at 6:00, if you weren't aware:


I wasn't aware. Thanks.

Had seen this render in a google search. But only the round hole date in real photos. Wrongly assumed the render was older.

Will be curious to see photos of Gen 2. For now, I'm digging my no date.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> It is starting to show a few knocks, and I can no longer hand wind it but it is still a favorite.


Why can't you hand-wind it?


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

Love the stories! Who files down the crown on a watch? That thought would never even cross my mind.

Some gilty goodness. What's the white .... on my green grass?









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkND said:


> Love the stories! Who files down the crown on a watch? That thought would never even cross my mind.
> 
> Some gilty goodness. What's the white .... on my green grass?
> 
> ...


MinneSNOWta.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Why can't you hand-wind it?


I'll contact you at Janis Trading.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cruzin









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Since this came up, whats better for miyota 9015, shake it gently until it starts up or wind it manually. I never wind mine manually, i either wear it and set the time when it starts up or do the shuffle.

Also, this is coming to me next week, so excited!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Something has come adrift in the movement. Turn the crown from now 'til Monday and nothing happens. I'm a Seiko guy from way back so I swirl it around a few times and away we go.


Hmmmmmm...let me ask Dan about it. Maybe there's an easy fix by resetting something in the keyless works.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Since this came up, whats better for miyota 9015, shake it gently until it starts up or wind it manually. I never wind mine manually, i either wear it and set the time when it starts up or do the shuffle.
> 
> Also, this is coming to me next week, so excited!


Nothing wrong with hand-winding it. Crown winding is more efficient than auto-winding. It takes 40 revolutions of the crown to reach full power, but over 1200 rotor revolutions.

Giving it half a dozen or even a dozen cranks will get it going, and help get it to full power faster. It might increase accuracy a bit to avoid running it at very low power, where accuracy drops off.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

azsuprasm said:


> I'm glad that you guys are diggin' the OD & yellow stripe on the bluey hueys of the s'Nacken...I love the strap but I am not at all feelin the color.
> 
> Khaki strap with a white stripe? Ooooh, yeah.


Because "nod to history."


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> there's an easy fix by resetting something in the keyless works.


Makes sense. It will reverse the tachyon flux polarity and reboot the synchrotron engine, thus cleaning out the jammed Jefferies tube.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Loving this one....









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> Nothing wrong with hand-winding it. Crown winding is more efficient than auto-winding. It takes 40 revolutions of the crown to reach full power, but over 1200 rotor revolutions.
> 
> Giving it half a dozen or even a dozen cranks will get it going, and help get it to full power faster. It might increase accuracy a bit to avoid running it at very low power, where accuracy drops off.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


One of the other benefits of Doc using the 9015 instead of a 2824. The ETA doesn't like being wound every day. The Miyota handles it like a champ.

_Doc Savage_


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> One of the other benefits of Doc using the 9015 instead of a 2824. The ETA doesn't like being wound every day. The Miyota handles it like a champ.
> 
> _Doc Savage_


I'm hoping not to start a big thing here, but...here goes.

I've spoken to more than one watchmaker about the reputed "problems" with hand-winding the 2824-2.

None of them knew about the problems, and none of them agreed with the online reputation, once we discussed it.

Their assessment is that the people who are complaining about some imagined weakness in the parts involved with hand-winding are most likely just not having the watch serviced soon enough. The parts are going to get wear-and-tear when they're used. If you don't have them serviced, they're going to wear out, and eventually, they'll break.

If you're wearing that watch every day, and hand-winding it often, you should have it serviced every 5 years. Even if you're wearing it less frequently, the lubrication will dry up, and so you shouldn't go longer than 7.

I don't want to contradict all the online "experts". I'm just reporting what I've been told by people who are truly experts, including a guy who went through WOSTEP in Switzerland, and the guy who actually founded a cutting-edge watchmaking school, both of whom have more than 20-30 years experience with their craft. If they don't know about a built-in weakness in something as common as the 2824-2, it doesn't exist.

That said - the 9015 don't need no stinking $300 service. Let it run until it dies, then throw the watch away or drop a new movement in it for $100.

Game, set, and match.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Wow, I've read through a lot of this thread (don't tell my boss, although I see him on WUS too) and I'm sold. Love you all.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> I'm hoping not to start a big thing here, but...here goes.
> 
> I've spoken to more than one watchmaker about the reputed "problems" with hand-winding the 2824-2.
> 
> ...


My comment was based solely on my own experience with brand new watches with 2824 movements. I was blown away last year when 3 of mine developed problems purely due to daily winding.

I'm not looking to start any movement wars either. Just happy you are using the 9015 in your subs.

Doc Savage


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> I'm hoping not to start a big thing here, but...here goes.
> 
> I've spoken to more than one watchmaker about the reputed "problems" with hand-winding the 2824-2.
> 
> ...


... so the real weakness is the shorter service interval before things break, no?


----------



## parsig9 (Jul 28, 2015)

So I might just post a few more pics of this beauty. Silver Timefactors NATO today.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

The new Nazario looks killer.

I will own a Nazario release one day soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> My comment was based solely on my own experience with brand new watches with 2824 movements. I was blown away last year when 3 of mine developed problems purely due to daily winding.
> 
> I'm not looking to start any movement wars either. Just happy you are using the 9015 in your subs.
> 
> Doc Savage


Yeah. I'm not a watchamaker or metallurgist, so all I can do is report the news as it happens.

Is it *possible* ETA made a decision to use sub-par metal in the gears? Sure.

Is it possible the lubrication isn't enough? I guess.

But, more likely, it's just that more use equals more wear-and-tear, and a shortened service interval.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> ... so the real weakness is the shorter service interval before things break, no?


I mean...it does raise the obvious question: Why don't the Japanese movements seem to break down as quickly?

I forget when it was, but I posted that high-magnification pic of the crown stems from 2 Swiss and 2 Japanese movements, showing the difference in machining and finishing. That's just 1 example from each, and just 1 part, but if we extrapolate that to be an indication of the overall quality, the Japanese have the edge.

My watchmaker has worked on Swiss, Russian, Chinese, and Japanese movements. He's not a classically-trained watchmaker. He's a former machinist and mechanic. He taught himself watchmaking. He's a mechanical genius who can fix anything. Yes, anything. He's fixed stuff other watchmakers gave up on. He wasn't indoctrinated to be biased about where a movement comes from. In fact, he's the most stubborn skeptic I know. He wants to know WHY stuff works or why it breaks. He doesn't take anyone else's word for it when he can prove it himself.

He's been impressed with the elegance of the 9015's design. There are a lot of little things which just make life easier for him on the rare occasions he has to work on one. They just work, and work well.

Okay, the 2824-2 is 50 years old. It's "tried and true", but it's also a 50-year old design. It's not cutting edge. It's the opposite of that.

I've stopped trying to argue with guys online who prefer the 2824-2. I just read a comment from a guy on Facebook, saying he likes the Subs, but he would only buy one if it had a Swiss movement in it. Okay, don't buy one, guy, your loss. Go buy something that will cost you more, both to buy and to maintain, and will never work as well as what you could have bought if you opened your mind and looked past the 30 years of "Swiss Made" hype.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JakeJD said:


> Because "nod to history."


Two can play at this game (undoubtedly reposts, but who can keep track?):




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)




----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

oh since we're sharing pics of our NTH.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I mean...it does raise the obvious question: Why don't the Japanese movements seem to break down as quickly?
> 
> I forget when it was, but I posted that high-magnification pic of the crown stems from 2 Swiss and 2 Japanese movements, showing the difference in machining and finishing. That's just 1 example from each, and just 1 part, but if we extrapolate that to be an indication of the overall quality, the Japanese have the edge.
> 
> ...


To me, the 9015 is a plus over a Swiss movement. Whether real or imagined, the 2824's reputation of a fragile handwinding system always sticks in the back of my mind. I've always shuffle started my 2824 powered watches "just in case." Never done that with my 9015s, never had to. It's incredibly robust, ticks at 4Hz and yet costs less than the Seiko NE15 which is 3Hz, doesn't (AFAIK) scratch the ratchet wheel like Seiko movements sometimes do (the 6R21 in my watch did) and mainly you just don't have to think about it. I get why some people go gaga over an El Primero or a Rolex 3135 or JLC movement. ETA-2824s are not that. I just don't understand why people would go, "if only it had a similarly off the shelf movement that was objectively worse in pretty much every way, but SWISS!"

It sort of reminds me of California sparkling wine vs. French Champagnes. There are some very affordable California NVs that beat the pants off of Champagnes that cost twice as much or more, but they aren't _French_, so clearly they can't be as good.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Idk about durability, I sure as hell know that 2824-2 movements feel really gritty and rough while handwinding (especially when not totally empty). NH35/36, NE15, miyotas 8215 and 9015, nomos alpha & unitas 6498, even sellita sw200 and stp 1-11... had all these movements, have wound all these movements. None of them feel as rough and gritty as the 2824-2s (and by now I've had quite a bunch of them).

The 8215 had quite a lot of grittiness to it, admittedly, but it wasn't paired up with the horribly strong resistance to turning that 2824-2s have. Most (all, imo) 2824-2s feel like you're forcing something you shouldn't be and the whole geartrain is whining and straining, when handwinding.

Depending on the watch, some 2824-2s are more rough than others to wind. Yes, there is variation. Still, even the smoothest/lightest 2824-2 I've tried was more rough than any of the other movements I've tried.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Idk about durability, I sure as hell know that 2824-2 movements feel really gritty and rough while handwinding (especially when not totally empty). NH35/36, NE15, miyotas 8215 and 9015, nomos alpha & unitas 6498, even sellita sw200 and stp 1-11... had all these movements, have wound all these movements. None of them feel as rough and gritty as the 2824-2s (and by now I've had quite a bunch of them).
> 
> The 8215 had quite a lot of grittiness to it, admittedly, but it wasn't paired up with the horribly strong resistance to turning that 2824-2s have. Most (all, imo) 2824-2s feel like you're forcing something you shouldn't be and the whole geartrain is whining and straining, when handwinding.
> 
> Depending on the watch, some 2824-2s are more rough than others to wind. Yes, there is variation. Still, even the smoothest/lightest 2824-2 I've tried was more rough than any of the other movements I've tried.


Some 2824 really are smoother winding than other brands. The Squale are particularly smooth.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

X2-Elijah said:


> Idk about durability, I sure as hell know that 2824-2 movements feel really gritty and rough while handwinding (especially when not totally empty). NH35/36, miyotas 8215 and 9015, nomos alpha & unitas 6498, even sellita sw200 and stp 1-11... had all these movements, have wound all these movements. None of them feel as rough and gritty as the 2824-2s (and by now I've had quite a bunch of them).
> 
> Depending on the watch, some 2824-2s are more rough than others to wind. Yes, there is variation. Still, even the smoothest/lightest 2824-2 I've tried was more rough than any of the other movements I've tried.


Same feeling i have with my 2824, I hardly wind it. When I had the steinhart(I sold it) the winding causes a clicking sound every time, and it seems "normal" not sure how normal is a clicking sound apparently it's an indication that's fully wind and the gears are being released back.

But with my squale I never had the same clicking sound, in fact it winds much nicer... so could be variant difference ?


----------



## green_pea (May 10, 2016)

anyone ordered or received their ODIN yet?


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

I have Seiko, Miyota, ETA's, and one Vostok I bought when I was stationed in Turkey in 1999-2000. The only movement that ever broke on me was an ETA 2824 when I was handwinding it. Now I never give an ETA more than a couple turns, just enough to get them going.

An interesting story on the Vostok I've probably shared before. Most of the watch shops outside of Incirlik AFB in Turkey sold mostly cheap replica watches. A couple also sold Vostoks. When I was checking them out the shop owner demonstrated how tough the watches were by using one to pound a nail into a piece of wood. Looking at the case, it had been used quite a few times to pound nails. It kept right on ticking. I'm not saying it didn't mess something up inside the watch, but it kept running. I still have the Vostok I bought for $25. It keeps excellent time.









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

MarkND said:


> I have Seiko, Miyota, ETA's, and one Vostok I bought when I was stationed in Turkey in 1999-2000. The only movement that ever broke on me was an ETA 2824 when I was handwinding it. Now I never give an ETA more than a couple turns, just enough to get them going.
> 
> An interesting story on the Vostok I've probably shared before. Most of the watch shops outside of Incirlik AFB in Turkey sold mostly cheap replica watches. A couple also sold Vostoks. When I was checking them out the shop owner demonstrated how tough the watches were by using one to pound a nail into a piece of wood. Looking at the case, it had been used quite a few times to pound nails. It kept right on ticking. I'm not saying it didn't mess something up inside the watch, but it kept running. I still have the Vostok I bought for $25. It keeps excellent time.
> 
> ...


The two Vostoks (one hand-wind and one auto) I have keep excellent time as well - probably my most accurate mechanicals, honestly. I'm pretty sure both are 80's-90's vintage.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

rpm1974 said:


> The two Vostoks (one hand-wind and one auto) I have keep excellent time as well - probably my most accurate mechanicals, honestly. I'm pretty sure both are 80's-90's vintage.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mine is a hand wind. Vostoks are the AK-47's of the watch world.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Ok, Enablers, a Holland is on the way to me. Can’t wait!

Ps, Mark and Wies at Serious Watches were awesome. I gave them a few production numbers to see if they had them still (x/50, etc), they looked through their stock, found one, and were cool about it. High-five!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Well, it is Friday. And it used to be a thing. Fannum Phrydae.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Just like the oysters, sizing the BoR was a real bear. But it's on now. Fits superbly and mighty comfy. Glad I got in on that.







Love those murdered-out snowflakes. Panda Nacken is my fave.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

I've been on the fence about getting a blue Odin, but when I put the Nacken on, I'm reminded of what an awesome model that one is. 









Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Another example of customers "gone mad"
https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/my-unfortunate-oris-experience-4951113.html

Cliff notes: The thread was originally titled Why Oris is Garbage. Do Not Buy One . I think the mods may have changed it.

Guys claims Oris wants to charge him more then he paid for the watch to fix it. Then says he just wants a crown however they want to charge him $300 for it. People are mostly replying that he's out of it and he keeps coming back insisting that Oris is the devil and everyone is hypnotized by them. Slowly comes out that he's owned the watch 10 years and over the course of that time he's had it in for repairs and he then started doing his own repairs. The Oris repair center rep chimes in and explains that OP has sent it to them over the years for things however when they recommended it be serviced he declined. As of late he's called them and yelled at them even though they tried to help him beyond what they needed to. Old thread from 3 years ago is posted https://www.watchuseek.com/f22/heart-broken-need-advice-3437386.html#post31953994 which shows he actually owned the watch for 18 years and has been giving Oris grief for quite a while on this.

Thread is now locked.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Idk about durability, I sure as hell know that 2824-2 movements feel really gritty and rough while handwinding (especially when not totally empty). NH35/36, NE15, miyotas 8215 and 9015, nomos alpha & unitas 6498, even sellita sw200 and stp 1-11... had all these movements, have wound all these movements. None of them feel as rough and gritty as the 2824-2s (and by now I've had quite a bunch of them).
> 
> The 8215 had quite a lot of grittiness to it, admittedly, but it wasn't paired up with the horribly strong resistance to turning that 2824-2s have. Most (all, imo) 2824-2s feel like you're forcing something you shouldn't be and the whole geartrain is whining and straining, when handwinding.
> 
> Depending on the watch, some 2824-2s are more rough than others to wind. Yes, there is variation. Still, even the smoothest/lightest 2824-2 I've tried was more rough than any of the other movements I've tried.


It's been a while since I had a watch with an ETA in it. I honestly don't remember the winding feel, but, I feel like I'd remember if it felt odd in some way, or gave me reason to be concerned about it.

With the STP's we used in the Tropics and DevilRays, my recollection is that the winding feel was fairly consistent, but if we found one that felt like it was giving us more resistance, we'd pull it and send it to get checked out.

Again, I don't remember that happening very often, and I cant remember the outcome of them all, or any, really, but if we had a recurring problem with poor lubrication in the keyless works, or something like that, I'd remember it, the same way I remember the problems we did in fact find with some frequency. We did see a number of "helicopter" rotors which would spin while hand-winding, and lubrication in general seemed to be a recurring issue, though not one that seemed to present itself very often as rough hand-winding.

Not to beat a dead horse, but it's very rare for us to find anything at all wrong with the 9015's in our final QC, and the winding feel does seem pretty consistent. We've made and shipped something like 2500-3000 watches with the 9015 so far, and never been able to identify any problem which occurred frequently enough that we'd start to look at it.

Most of my watches have 9015's inside. I have a habit of giving every watch 10-20 hand-winds before I put one on, if it's been stopped and I had to set the time. Honestly, I don't pay much attention to the feel on any of them, but if I felt something odd in any of them, whatever was inside, I'd have Dan take a look at it.

To be fair, they're not all perfect. We do have a small rate of them simply failing inexplicably, usually within a short time after we've shipped one to a customer. Because they're cheaper to replace than to service, we typically just replace them, and set the bad ones aside as parts donors. We haven't had enough to feel like it was worth tearing them apart to find a common cause, if one even exists.

Part of the problem with doing that is that unlike the STP's, the 9015's that go bad don't give us any early warning signs. They test fine, then one day they just stop. With the STP's, we can often spot the early signs of trouble in QC or timegrapher testing, and even if we don't, customers will often notice funny behavior before they simply quit.



liquidtension said:


> Same feeling i have with my 2824, I hardly wind it. When I had the steinhart(I sold it) the winding causes a clicking sound every time, and it seems "normal" not sure how normal is a clicking sound apparently it's an indication that's fully wind and the gears are being released back.
> 
> But with my squale I never had the same clicking sound, in fact it winds much nicer... so could be variant difference ?


The clicking sound is the mainspring slipping because it's fully wound. It is normal. If you don't hear it, it could simply be due to differences in case construction.



MarkND said:


> I have Seiko, Miyota, ETA's, and one Vostok I bought when I was stationed in Turkey in 1999-2000. The only movement that ever broke on me was an ETA 2824 when I was handwinding it. Now I never give an ETA more than a couple turns, just enough to get them going.
> 
> An interesting story on the Vostok I've probably shared before. Most of the watch shops outside of Incirlik AFB in Turkey sold mostly cheap replica watches. A couple also sold Vostoks. When I was checking them out the shop owner demonstrated how tough the watches were by using one to pound a nail into a piece of wood. Looking at the case, it had been used quite a few times to pound nails. It kept right on ticking. I'm not saying it didn't mess something up inside the watch, but it kept running. I still have the Vostok I bought for $25. It keeps excellent time.
> 
> ...


If I ever go to Turkey, I'm going to PM you to ask for the location of that store. I don't want to die without seeing a Turkish street merchant using a Russian watch to pound nails, crack walnuts, crush amphetamine to snort, run it through a coffee grinder, and any other feats of resilience he can dream up.

I want to see the look on his face when, after acting suitably impressed, I ask him about the crown wobble, and suggest it feels like the whole thing is going to fall apart in my hands.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> Just like the oysters, sizing the BoR was a real bear. But it's on now. Fits superbly and mighty comfy. Glad I got in on that.
> View attachment 14135403
> 
> Love those murdered-out snowflakes. Panda Nacken is my fave.


Help a brutha out.

Why were the bracelets hard to size?

If the Oyster was hard because of the half-link issues and dodgy screws we found in November's delivery, I get that. Other than those issues, which we sorted, all the feedback I've gotten is that the Oysters are easy to size.

The BOR? Yours is the first feedback. If there's a problem which we might see again and again, I'd like to get out in front of it.

If it helps - one of the most frequent explanations when people have had trouble sizing bracelets was that they were using a too-small screwdriver. It seems 1.2mm is the usual size needed with our bracelets. It helps to make sure the blade is sharp, so a little filing may be necessary, if it's been well-worn.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> Well, it is Friday. And it used to be a thing. Fannum Phrydae.
> [/url]


Still is! Fannums galore!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

mplsabdullah said:


> Another example of customers "gone mad"
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/my-unfortunate-oris-experience-4951113.html
> 
> Cliff notes: The thread was originally titled Why Oris is Garbage. Do Not Buy One . I think the mods may have changed it.
> ...


I had to read the entire train-wreck of a thread. The OP just kept digging and digging. Awesome comments and observations by the peanut gallery, tho...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> I had to read the entire train-wreck of a thread. The OP just kept digging and digging. Awesome comments and observations by the peanut gallery, tho...


The reply from the Oris service center guy and the link to the old thread made for a beautiful cherry on top.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> On what planet are you legally obligated to supply someone with a new caseback? That seems beyond insane. Also yes, any watchmaker that can't handle a watch without wrecking the finish on the caseback shouldn't be allowed anywhere NEAR an actual movement which is considerably more delicate than said caseback. Just polish them out. Or you know, ignore it because it's a friggen caseback.


That sounds a little like the automotive industry where manufacturers are compelled (by exactly what authority, I'm not sure) to make repair parts available for something like 10 years after a car goes out of production.

Clearly bananas to claim the same type of thing applies here.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> Currently have the NTH Dolphin on loan and sized for my wife.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Striking! Almost wish I was man enough to wear a pink watch.

But more importantly, I support the notion of female wrist models. Beats looking at the normal hairy gorilla arm photos. I propose man arms strictly for size reference. And woman arms for watch beauty shots.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> The reply from the Oris service center guy and the link to the old thread made for a beautiful cherry on top.


I'm sure at some point I've been "burned" as a consumer. We all have. But I'll be damned if I can remember the last time it happened. It's pretty rare. I can't help but feel that the vast majority of "this business done me wrong" threads are started by people with unrealistic expectations, or worse, devious intent.

There was one recently, in the public forum, started by a guy who bought a $150 Deep Blue. He got it, never looked at it, stuck it in a drawer for 3 months, then, later, when he took it out, he saw that the lume patch from the 12 marker on the dial had come dislodged, and was floating inside the case.

Deep Blue offered to replace the watch for him. All he had to do is send the first watch back. He's balking at having to pay the return shipping. They said it was because it's been so long since they shipped the original.

Okay, I see his point. He's never worn it, and never looked at it, if we take him at his word, but...

C'mon. First, it's a $150 watch. How much expense do you expect the seller to eat? There's not much profit to start. Round-trip re-shipping starts to eat into it. It's fair to expect better service when you pay more, right? Okay, so, isn't it fair to accept less service when you pay less?

Secondly, seriously, who gets a watch, and doesn't even look at it, for 3 months? And, even if he's telling the truth, how does the company know? How do they know he hasn't been wearing it, and dropped it, causing the lume to get dislodged?

Third, if you buy something in a store, get it home, and find something wrong with it, the store doesn't pay for your gas to get back to the store, or for your parking on your second trip. Bricks and mortar, or buying online, there's always the risk you'll get the dud, and there will be some added cost to getting it sorted out. How much are you really going to complain if the seller is offering you an immediate replacement, even after 3 months since the purchase?

Plus, he started a thread with a title to suggest it was a QC failure. How is that a QC failure? If they shipped the watch that way, it would be, maybe (assuming it happened before the watch went into the box, not after), but if it was dislodged in shipping, or if it happened while the watch was in his possession, then they wouldn't have been able to catch it in QC, because it happened later.

Every time one guy gets one watch with one small problem, it's proof that the company does $hltty QC? Really? Deep Blue makes watches by the thousands. It's the law of large numbers. Eventually, one will have a problem. No company is 100% perfect all the time. They're actually being remarkably helpful in this case, offering to send a replacement, rather than demanding he send it back to them for a repair.

How much is it to ship the watch back? $20? $25? Suck it up, send it back, get the replacement, and move on with your life.

I also love the "Seller isn't helping me with a package that tracking says is in transit but was supposed to be here already" threads. As if the seller has the ability to get couriers to move more quickly.

Inevitably, the guy who started the thread is in a different country than the seller, so we're dealing with customs delays - in the BUYER'S country - and the vagaries of delivery services in the third world, plus a language barrier.

Lost package? Sure, the seller should do something. Package marked as delivered, but you don't see it, or package still in transit? There's not a lot we can do. We're all at the mercy of the couriers, the customs agents, etc.

I got that Certina DS-1 a few years back. One of the split-pins was inextricably lodged in the bracelet link. I had to take it to the mall, to get it drilled out at one of those Fast-Fix places. It cost me $15 and two hours of my time, plus gas.

I didn't go online to trash Certina. I bought it from their AD in Spain. I didn't email them 20 times in 2 days to scream bloody murder. They even charged me VAT, when they shouldn't have. I knew going in what I was getting and what I'd be paying. I had a little problem, but I dealt with it, moved on, and actually enjoyed the watch while I had it.

I know, I know. I'm crazy. What sort of loon has a problem and doesn't go online to complain and warn others, as a public service? I don't know. I guess I'm strange in that way.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Striking! Almost wish I was man enough to wear a pink watch.
> 
> But more importantly, I support the notion of female wrist models. Beats looking at the normal hairy gorilla arm photos. I propose man arms strictly for size reference. And woman arms for watch beauty shots.


Put it on the ballot. I'll vote for it.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I also love the "Seller isn't helping me with a package that tracking says is in transit but was supposed to be here already" threads. As if the seller has the ability to get couriers to move more quickly.
> 
> Inevitably, the guy who started the thread is in a different country than the seller, so we're dealing with customs delays - in the BUYER'S country - and the vagaries of delivery services in the third world, plus a language barrier.


I'm planning on setting up a "watch courier service". I'll hand carry stuff back and forth. For a small fee. Nigeria costs more.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

JakeJD said:


> Because "nod to history."


Oh, so I guess that explains the textured dials on NTH vintage models. What's that meme bit? I was today years old when I learned that well aged Tudors have bumpy dials.

They started out like the top photo and ended up like the bottom?


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

mplsabdullah said:


> The reply from the Oris service center guy and the link to the old thread made for a beautiful cherry on top.


Was thinking the same thing.

Doc Savage


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

docvail said:


> Help a brutha out.
> 
> Why were the bracelets hard to size?
> 
> ...


I think my tools were proper size and sharp. Probably just my clumsy fingers and eyes (closeup focus not the same since having the lasik) on very delicate tiny work. Didn't mean to imply it was a defect or the like. Just difficult for me. But the tiny is what makes it comfortable I figure so worth the trade. Ended up succeeding with my Leatherman Wave of all things (with a very finely sharped screwdriver bit). I just can't seem to get the purchase on these tiny watch/eyeglass screwdrivers. Especially if/when there is loctite to be overcome.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Got this in email, first i thought it was some funny joke from Doc about the Subs


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

My watch radar always alerts when I see this logo on a building or truck.

Also, saw a work email this week with a name misspelled as "Janis". For a moment, I considered the possibility that the author was a WIS who had actually typed out Janis Trading at some point in the past and it had auto corrected to that. I concluded the odds of that are hovering somewhere around 0%. WIS sightings are rare. Further, I consider myself one and an NTH fan and I myself have now typed "Janis" three times ever - all in this ramble.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

3WR said:


> Oh, so I guess that explains the textured dials on NTH vintage models. What's that meme bit? I was today years old when I learned that well aged Tudors have bumpy dials.
> 
> They started out like the top photo and ended up like the bottom?


Sometimes paint bubbles. It's a defect, actually. It's just doc capitalizing on cool.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> I'm planning on setting up a "watch courier service". I'll hand carry stuff back and forth. For a small fee. Nigeria costs more.


Good idea. There is some precedent that suggests there are customers for that type of service. At least one US based express delivery company will send a courier to pick up a package from anywhere, board a flight with the package, land and take the package to its destination. They may balk at servicing geopolitical hotspots. Your willingness to do so may be your competitive advantage.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

3WR said:


> Good idea. There is some precedent that suggests there are customers for that type of service. At least one US based express delivery company will send a courier to pick up a package from anywhere, board a flight with the package, land and take the package to its destination. They may balk at servicing geopolitical hotspots. Your willingness to do so may be your competitive advantage.


I'm actually kidding.  I already carry stuff back and forth for friends, but I could only image the hassles with getting strangers to pay, etc., and then be patient with me while I try and pick up a trip to wherever they live. I just read Doc's comments and the thread posted elsewhere regarding a buyer's impatience with a watch making its way to Eastern Europe. If I DID ever do it, I'd be so expensive nobody would want to use me...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> I'm actually kidding.  I already carry stuff back and forth for friends, but I could only image the hassles with getting strangers to pay, etc., and then be patient with me while I try and pick up a trip to wherever they live. I just read Doc's comments and the thread posted elsewhere regarding a buyer's impatience with a watch making its way to Eastern Europe. If I DID ever do it, I'd be so expensive nobody would want to use me...


Roger that. I was joking around, too. If there is an ultra high end aviation style watch maker (Breitling but turned up to 11?), it might be cool if they delivered watches by flying them to the airport nearest their customer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I'm planning on setting up a "watch courier service". I'll hand carry stuff back and forth. For a small fee. Nigeria costs more.


Define "stuff"...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> I think my tools were proper size and sharp. Probably just my clumsy fingers and eyes (closeup focus not the same since having the lasik) on very delicate tiny work. Didn't mean to imply it was a defect or the like. Just difficult for me. But the tiny is what makes it comfortable I figure so worth the trade. Ended up succeeding with my Leatherman Wave of all things (with a very finely sharped screwdriver bit). I just can't seem to get the purchase on these tiny watch/eyeglass screwdrivers. Especially if/when there is loctite to be overcome.
> View attachment 14136083


The struggle is real.

When I first started with watches 6 years ago, I could size them without any vision assistance. Lately, I'm using a jeweler's loupe in order to see what I'm doing.

I think my wife may have hit me in the head with a frying pan a few years back, knocking me unconscious, and affecting my vision. I'm too afraid to ask her, and probably wouldn't blame her. But it's crazy how quickly my vision has deteriorated.



Forever8895 said:


> Got this in email, first i thought it was some funny joke from Doc about the Subs


Ugh.

I got a bunch of emails about it today. Here's what happened...

Y'all know we launched the new website last fall. It's on a completely different platform than the old website. Two different companies/systems. But we were able to keep using the same email newsletter service, until recently.

The email newsletter service and the new website company apparently couldn't play nice in the sandbox, and so we had to find a new newsletter service, and fast. We were already considering a change anyway, but we had to rush to get the new system set up and running this past week.

Given that we're receiving a new batch of Subs, we're neck-deep in QC and shipping, the timing could not be less ideal.

I did nothing, by the way. I paid my marketing guy and an outside sharp-shooter with expertise in these ecommerce systems to set the whole thing up. I got enough on my plate trying to keep Rusty and Aaron from $hltting the bed on me, and don't even get me started on the regular shenanigans coming out of Hong Kong, or the never-ending cavalcade of guys who want to argue with me in emails about stuff most people have figured out, like loose bracelet screws, or whatever.

So...they got it set up, and everything was hunky-dory, until today, when all of a sudden, we apparently started sending out that stupid story box email.

I think it's fixed. Maybe it isn't. I don't know. This is the first problem in a long time I couldn't blame on Rusty. Or Aaron.

I need booze. Like, now. I think I'll go get me some booze. Maybe some food, too, but...mostly booze.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> The struggle is real.
> 
> When I first started with watches 6 years ago, I could size them without any vision assistance. Lately, I'm using a jeweler's loupe in order to see what I'm doing.
> 
> ...


I know some guys in Nigeria who can fix this for you. One of them is an actual Prince.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> I got a bunch of emails about it today. Here's what happened...
> 
> Y'all know we launched the new website last fall. It's on a completely different platform than the old website. Two different companies/systems. But we were able to keep using the same email newsletter service, until recently.
> 
> ...


Believe me, I knew it was an error email right from the third look...

Why third?

Because it sounded like a genuine Doc-style-newsletter's headline! "What's a story box? An image and some text". I couldn't hold my laugh imagining you actually typed this!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Oh, so I guess that explains the textured dials on NTH vintage models. What's that meme bit? I was today years old when I learned that well aged Tudors have bumpy dials.
> 
> They started out like the top photo and ended up like the bottom?


Acne.

Teenage years were hard, awkward years for Tudor as they were coming up.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Forever8895 said:


> Got this in email, first i thought it was some funny joke from Doc about the Subs


I thought it was just Doc's method of positive reinforcement. Or redundancy to the Nth degree. Or side affects of the frying pan incident manifesting themselves again.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Ooooh, Bluracuda!

(Been waiting weeks to make that pun)

I'll take the plastic off as soon as I finish inspecting it with an electron microscope, then emailing Doc for a partial refund due to the metallurgical imperfections that I document.

Joking aside though, she's beautiful.

ETA:

Seriously, love at first sight with this watch. It's scratching an itch I didn't even realize I had.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm sure at some point I've been "burned" as a consumer. We all have. But I'll be damned if I can remember the last time it happened. It's pretty rare. I can't help but feel that the vast majority of "this business done me wrong" threads are started by people with unrealistic expectations, or worse, devious intent.


I have. For whatever reason, it's always furniture. Years ago I bought a pretty nice leather couch from Raymour and Flanigan. It arrived, and something felt off - it didn't sit right and was kind of uncomfortable, and it looked like there might've been some sort of issue with the frame in the back, there was a little piece sticking out a bit. R&M says they will try to repair, but need parts. Cut to 5 months later when the parts finally arrive, and they are the wrong parts. R&M then finally agrees to give me a replacement rather than wait another 5 months for hopefully the correct parts, and THAT one is weird and uncomfortable too. I ended up selling it on Craigslist for like $300.

Otherwise things tend to either work as advertised, or are easily returned if there's a problem. The worst issue I've had thus far on a brand new watch was my Evant Decodiver, which arrived with a tiny scratch on the polished beveled edge just above the crown. Didn't bother me enough to care.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Nice work on the BoR, doc. Great fit, great look. Put me in a vintage frame of mind. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

New hotness









Family photo


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Nice work on the BoR, doc. Great fit, great look. Put me in a vintage frame of mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Happy to know people who got them like them. I didn't keep one for myself.

I'm weird, I know, but I realized my personal taste in bracelet styles runs opposite to what people believe is their relative comfort level.

H-link > Oyster / President > BOR / Jubilee / Engineer.

I think I just appreciate visual simplicity more, and never noticed any real big difference in comfort.

I'd love to get a rally style bracelet, just to try one out, but I've got a feeling that's taking simplicity just a bit too far, and the mostly-one-piece sides would make for an awkward fit.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Odin









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I hated the look of BOR until I bought a DOXA. Its my favorite bracelet now and in person it actually looks cool. So comfortable, especially in the summer, i guess its more breathable. I will need to get in on the next run of nth bor if there is one.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I agree, these are awesome.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I really really really want to like the Odin more, but its missing something.

Its the small 3-6-9 numbers (although usually the date eliminates the 3 or 6).

I like the big triangle at 12 look with the sword hands and blue is very attractive.

As i looked at all the Omega homage watches available, such as Helson, Borealis, Precista, CWC, MKII in addition to NTH, the one detail missing on the Odin was the numbers. I get that it was likely the intent to be similar but stand apart on its own, by having enough design markers that its obvious as to the homage but perhaps eliminating something considered to be superfluous. But its that one detail that just anchors the design for me.

I ended up with a Helson, but i do like the Odin too. I just wish i could like it more.

So ill now have to wait for some other design that i can add to my Spectre II, Nacken Black, Devil Ray, and Carolina.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I really really really want to like the Odin more, but its missing something.
> 
> Its the small 3-6-9 numbers (although usually the date eliminates the 3 or 6).
> 
> ...


I wanted it to be a mix of '67 SM300 and SMP 2254.50 without being too much of either.

















Like it or not, that's what it is, IMO.

I like it.

It's selling well.

And without the numbers, plus the other differences, it avoids being too close to either for people to lose their $hlt about it (so far).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^^^Nice "fit" on those SMP end-links.

Just sayin'...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> I wanted it to be a mix of '67 SM300 and SMP 2254.50 without being too much of either.
> 
> View attachment 14139195
> 
> ...


I totally get it and i think it is a really attractive design. Its my own little quirky personal taste thing and the more that i see it itll likely grow on me.

Glad they are selling well for you too!

Cheers!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

BORocks


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> I wanted it to be a mix of '67 SM300 and SMP 2254.50 without being too much of either.
> 
> View attachment 14139195
> 
> ...


I was wondering why you didn't go with the sword minute hand, but now I see why.

Love the hands on my 2254. If I hadn't just gotten it, I would have definitely gone for an Odin.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> I was wondering why you didn't go with the sword minute hand, but now I see why.
> 
> Love the hands on my 2254. If I hadn't just gotten it, I would have definitely gone for an Odin.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


this. the 2254 'ray donovan' is one of my favorite watches - if i hadn't gotten it before the odin came out, i'd be wearing an odin black right this moment.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

...but in the meantime...bor. i can dig it.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

The Watcher said:


> this. the 2254 'ray donovan' is one of my favorite watches - if i hadn't gotten it before the odin came out, i'd be wearing an odin black right this moment.
> 
> View attachment 14139395
> 
> ...


Close! Ray Donovan (Liev Schreiber) wears a 2264.50. It's the quartz version of the 2254.50.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Close! Ray Donovan (Liev Schreiber) wears a 2264.50. It's the quartz version of the 2254.50.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yeah, i know his is a quartz version. trust me, this is as close as i get to 'movement talk'. i leave the rest of that discussion to the pros


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> I was wondering why you didn't go with the sword minute hand, but now I see why.
> 
> Love the hands on my 2254. If I hadn't just gotten it, I would have definitely gone for an Odin.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is a sword hand. They both/all are, just different kinds of swords.

I went back and forth about how much SM300 vs SMP 2254 to incorporate into the Odin. If I wanted to do a straight-up 1:1 homage of either, we could have, but I didn't really want that.

We didn't exactly split the difference. The Odin is more SM300 than SMP, but without the 3-6-9-12 numbering, and without the SM300's typeface, which we kept the same as all the Subs. And obviously, the case is much different.

But I always thought the SMP2254 was an SM300 redux, anyway, just with different hands, no numbers, slightly different indices, and the textured dial. There isn't a whole lot that separates them, stylistically.

Rather than lean more towards the SMP, we went more SM300, because vintage.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double post.

Random image to replace duped text...


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

There's always a second-hand Ghost Rider around. Just can't see them too often because...well, they're ghosts.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

The Watcher said:


> ...but in the meantime...bor. i can dig it.
> 
> View attachment 14139403


Awesome.

I have a Vintage Barracuda Black on order, and I tried to get a BoR band, but they sold out before I could make the purchase. Was hoping to have your exact combo.

Doc Savage


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Last one for the day, I promise:


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Any of you BOR guys want to sell me your oyster bracelet?


----------



## Mattedialdoc (Oct 5, 2016)

Hey Docvail,
Will the BOR bracelet be restocked?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

Mattedialdoc said:


> Hey Docvail,
> Will the BOR bracelet be restocked?


Seems there is a possibility. He posted this a few days ago.



docvail said:


> I'm trying to sort out getting more.
> 
> Ordinarily, my MOQ on bracelets is 300 pieces.
> 
> This was sort of a special circumstance, which enabled me to get 23. There was a bit of a mix-up in production, and so I might be able to get another 25, due to the mistake. I'm still trying to sort it out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

RotorRonin said:


> Any of you BOR guys want to sell me your oyster bracelet?


https://nthwatches.com/collections/...-stainless-steel-oyster-bracelet-for-nth-subs

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Hi all! I received an email from nth saying that the black vintage barracuda will be re-released. I just wanted to be sure bc that’s amazing news. Also I was asking on another thread about sizes and someone mentioned they will producing a 42mm? Anyone have any info on what type or when?? Thanks and I can’t wait to get my first nth!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mattedialdoc said:


> Hey Docvail,
> Will the BOR bracelet be restocked?


Not sure.

My MOQ on bracelets is 300 pieces.

I saw that another brand my OEM produces was making a model with a BOR bracelet, so I asked if we could "piggy-back" on that production by adding 25 bracelets for me. All we'd need to do is ask the bracelet vendor to produce 25 pairs of a different end-link, to fit the NTH Subs, and get our clasp supplier to send us 25 clasps.

I got the 25 bracelets, but we couldn't get the end-links to fit. The spring-bars wouldn't seat in the lug holes correctly. They were about 0.5mm to 1mm off. It looked like the end-links were made too long, by just that small amount.

They were supposed to make me 25 pairs of new end-links. I don't know what happened, but they ended up sending me 23 all-new, complete bracelets. Don't get me started. I guess they made 25, but 2 were rejected for some reason. Maybe they just made 23. I don't know, and I'm not making a homework assignment for myself to find out what happened.

So, I still have 25 bracelets, but they don't fit the Subs, and I'm not sure what they would fit. I asked my OEM if we can get the 25 pairs of links I thought we were getting, and it doesn't seem like that's going to happen, because, like I said at the start, our MOQ is 300 pieces, so it was a bit of a favor to get the bracelet vendor to agree to making the first 25 pairs of end-links, then re-make them, AND add another 23 bracelets.

I'm looking into having the end-links on the original 25 modified, so they'll fit, and I can sell them. It's not my top priority, with everything else going on. If it happens, it'll happen when it happens.

---

No, I'm not going to make a batch of NTH Subs with 300 or more BOR bracelets. Doing that would double the number of SKUs, and add another layer of complication for me any my retailers, trying to figure out how many to make or buy of each version.

They cost more, so we'd have to raise the price, and I don't want to deal with the situation involving people constantly badgering me about why.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mikefable said:


> Hi all! I received an email from nth saying that the black vintage barracuda will be re-released. I just wanted to be sure bc that's amazing news. Also I was asking on another thread about sizes and someone mentioned they will producing a 42mm? Anyone have any info on what type or when?? Thanks and I can't wait to get my first nth!!


The Barracuda Vintage Black is coming. We're expecting to start selling them soon, hopefully by the end of this coming week, or early the following week. You'll want to get on a retailer's waiting list. We won't have any for sale through the NTH website.

We are making a larger version of the Subs, but at this moment, we're not working on a version that looks like the Barracuda.

The case design for the XL Sub is done. Aaron and I started to work on the rest of the design (dials, hands, bezels, etc), but we got a little side-tracked finalizing some new versions of the 40mm Subs, which we needed to get done, so we could get them into production.

We finalized those 40mm versions last week, and I sent my OEM a request to get them into production yesterday, so yesterday I was able to get back into the XL Sub design, with some ideas and revisions I sent to Aaron.

Aaron's away on holiday at the moment, but I'm sure he'll get back to it when he returns.

We're not going to rush things. We're giving ourselves time to explore a few different ideas. It'll be done when it's done.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> (...)we got a little side-tracked finalizing some new versions of the 40mm Subs, which we needed to get done, so we could get them into production.


Hulk Barracuda?   



> We're not going to rush things. We're giving ourselves time to explore a few different ideas. It'll be done when it's done.


By all means, Chris, slow your roll for a bit. I need to let the waters settle with the wife (and the bank account recover) after picking up the Barracuda Blue before I think about any additional purchases. I hate missing the bus on a new watch because I just burned up that last of my dry powder.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I really really really want to like the Odin more, but its missing something.
> 
> Its the small 3-6-9 numbers (although usually the date eliminates the 3 or 6).
> 
> ...


He also already did this


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Hulk Barracuda?


Never gonna be a Hulk. No green PVD from our suppliers.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

In the upcoming Bond film, Bond wears a no-date Omega SE SMP on a thin mesh bracelet, so to kinda/sorta approximate the look, I've taken my Commander off the stock bracelet and have ordered a Milanese mesh for it.

In the meantime, I'm sporting it on leather.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Never gonna be a Hulk. No green PVD from our suppliers.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I'm actually glad to hear that. I've finally found my favorite green diver (and a couple green non divers) and I need no further temptations on green watches.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Commander 300 - also not really a 1:1 design reproduction.

'67 Seamaster 300 dial, but with broad arrow / dauphine handset, Planet Ocean / Co-ax SM300 bezel, and case based on SMP chronograph.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to deny the inspiration, or that we've made homages. I'm just being consistent. We always find a way to do something just a little different.

The haters can bite me.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Never gonna be a Hulk. No green PVD from our suppliers.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


That feels like a challenge.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Commander 300 - also not really a 1:1 design reproduction.
> 
> '67 Seamaster 300 dial, but with broad arrow / dauphine handset, Planet Ocean / Co-ax SM300 bezel, and case based on SMP chronograph.


Yeah, it was a mash-up of Omega past and present, like an alternate vision of what Omega's revamped SM300 might've been like had they gone down a different path.

There are micros that have released versions that are closer to reproductions of vintage SM300 designs. If I remember right, you either bought one or were thinking about buying one?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Garage shot with no charge.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

mplsabdullah said:


> Garage shot with no charge.


Holy schnikes; need to grab my shades!! Killer!!

BTW, is the blue Scorpène available with date? Only seeing it in black with date.

Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Yeah, it was a mash-up of Omega past and present, like an alternate vision of what Omega's revamped SM300 might've been like had they gone down a different path.
> 
> There are micros that have released versions that are closer to reproductions of vintage SM300 designs. If I remember right, you either bought one or were thinking about buying one?


Borealis made the Estoril. Helson made the Sharkmaster 300. Both were very close homages to the '67 SM 300.

I bought the Helson.

I don't know Carlos from Prometheus/Borealis well, but we've traded a few words here and there. He seems a good chap, and was kind enough to give me advice when I needed it. I didn't want to criticize his design, but I thought it missed on the typeface and choice of lume color, whereas Helson nailed both.

I would have preferred the 9015 in the Estoril (Helson had an ETA), as well as the Estoril's thinner case, and likely better bracelet. I have no doubt the Estoril quality was every bit as good as Helson's, which I thought was very good. My only real complaints were the folded end-links on the bracelet, and the crown was a little small, with an appearance that looked different than the case, almost unfinished.

I sold the Helson after wearing it a few times. It was very nice for the price I paid, but I wasn't wearing it enough to justify keeping it. It felt a little top-heavy on my wrist. I felt like I scratched my vintage SM 300 itch, and stopped thinking about it ever since.

It was helpful to have it in hand, in order to compare the Helson's C3 lume to the v.1 Odin prototypes we made, which had the same stark-white BG W9 lume used on the Extoril. The little touch of yellow in the C3 makes a big difference, in my opinion, and it helped convince me we needed to make the Odins with C3 on the dial and hands, not BG W9.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Never gonna be a Hulk. No green PVD from our suppliers.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Have you guys ever done a green dial at all on the subs? I don't recall seeing one. Nothing stopping you from doing green/SS right?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bloom said:


> Holy schnikes; need to grab my shades!! Killer!!
> 
> BTW, is the blue Scorpène available with date? Only seeing it in black with date.
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river...


It's a no-date only model.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

docvail said:


> It's a no-date only model.


Thanks for confirming Doc; that's a bummer for me. May spring for the blue Odin then.

Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

I’m seriously torn right now between a barracuda vintage black and the new Odin. They literally are both screaming at me to get them. They both meet criteria on itched I need scratched. Either one of these watches wear bigger than the other? 7 inch wrist and I’m so used to the 42mm I usually get. I had a estoril and it wasn’t that it felt small, it just looked wildly different for some reason so I sold it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Mikefable said:


> I'm seriously torn right now between a barracuda vintage black and the new Odin. They literally are both screaming at me to get them. They both meet criteria on itched I need scratched. Either one of these watches wear bigger than the other? 7 inch wrist and I'm so used to the 42mm I usually get. I had a estoril and it wasn't that it felt small, it just looked wildly different for some reason so I sold it.


I think the Odin will wear smaller than the Estoril.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Have you guys ever done a green dial at all on the subs? I don't recall seeing one. Nothing stopping you from doing green/SS right?
> 
> View attachment 14142217


I haven't thought about it, and nothing's stopping me, except for a complete and unshakable lack of interest in it.

Please, let that be the end of the discussion about it. Please don't push me to explain my reasons, and $hlt all over the idea.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, just a heads-up, in case you missed it.

My retailers get first crack at all the inventory with each new production. In some cases, they buy all of the pieces for some models/versions, and we won't have any for sale on the NTH website. If you want one of these models, we won't have them on the NTH site, and you're going to want to get on a retailer's waiting list:

- Barracuda Brown
- Barracuda Vintage Black
- Näcken Modern Black
- Näcken Modern Blue, WITH DATE (we'll have the no-date available)
- Näcken Vintage Blue
- Odin Black WITH DATE (we'll have a couple pieces of the no-date)

^^If you're hoping to buy one of those, we won't have them. I don't hide any in my office. If the site says sold out, we're sold out. You want to contact one of our NTH retailers about them. 

Tomorrow we'll start sales of the Barracuda Blue, the Odin Blue, and the Santa Cruz. We won't have very many available on the NTH site. Again, if our site says sold out, we're sold out. You'll want to contact one of our retailers to get on the waiting list.

We should be able to start sales of the Barracuda Vintage Black, the Näcken Modern Black, and the Näcken Modern Blue by the end of this week, or early next. Don't let this confuse you. Look at the list above. Most of these are only going to be available from our retailers.

The Barracuda Brown is delayed. We're remaking the bezel inserts. We might have them available by the end of the month. Stay tuned.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Mikefable said:


> I'm seriously torn right now between a barracuda vintage black and the new Odin. They literally are both screaming at me to get them. They both meet criteria on itched I need scratched. Either one of these watches wear bigger than the other? 7 inch wrist and I'm so used to the 42mm I usually get. I had a estoril and it wasn't that it felt small, it just looked wildly different for some reason so I sold it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You clearly need to get both 

Doc Savage


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Just pulled the trigger on the barracuda!!! I can’t wait!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Mikefable said:


> Just pulled the trigger on the barracuda!!! I can't wait!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


On Tuesday, I'll post a side-by-side of BVB and Odin Black.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

hwa said:


> On Tuesday, I'll post a side-by-side of BVB and Odin Black.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Awesome! Thanks! It's funny to me how watches with the same dimensions can look so wildly different on. Example, I had a 42mm ocean from steinhart. It looked huge on me. To me at least. On the other hand I have an oris 65 42mm that looks just perfect to me. Not too big or small. The venture ii was the same way. It looked like the biggest 42 I've ever owned lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

If you are in the fence to get which model.. most of the time you should get both. Because for NTH. One is never enough!


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Well.... finally succumbed, one Santa Cruz no date on its way. Will match my white Santa Cruz Nomad mountain bike.

Will have to post a picture of the pair when the watch arrives.

Now for those XL Nth subs. Hopefully they look like rubbish and I save myself some money! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Something that I would not expect that this is a watch that has the most rotation in my collection. It keeps growing on me...


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

These Scorpene lume shots are seriously going to put a dent in my wallet if you all keep this up. Seriously growing on me too. Grrr!


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

BoR on Skipjack..


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Put the Commander on perlon for today:


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Twehttam said:


> These Scorpene lume shots are seriously going to put a dent in my wallet if you all keep this up. Seriously growing on me too. Grrr!


From one Lumaholic to another, Scorpene is your gateway drug to total addiction:









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Is there a collab going on between NTH and Rolex?

Note the 3D render animation on their website, must be the newest NTH magic... https://www.rolex.com/


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Ragl said:


> From one Lumaholic to another, Scorpene is your gateway drug to total addiction:
> 
> View attachment 14144141
> 
> ...


That's amazing!! Is that the blue or black version?

Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Doc, will you be making another run of the blue Scorpène version, or are they pretty much gone at this point?


Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Ragl said:


> From one Lumaholic to another, Scorpene is your gateway drug to total addiction


Jeepers creepers. I'm so mad at myself for missing grabbing a Spork and am not going to pay crazy second-hand market prices. Plus, this case size is so much better (IMO). My Holland is on the UPS truck to be delivered today... do I buy another before that even gets here? :-d


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Bloom said:


> That's amazing!! Is that the blue or black version?
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river...


It's the Scorpene Blue, the lume is retina melting, the Scorpene Black will probz be just as blinding......

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

liquidtension said:


> BoR on Skipjack..


Damn. I'm not really a BOR fan but that solves my problem of my skipjack looking too "plain" on the original bracelet. That goes VERY well together!


----------



## nyonya (Jun 23, 2015)

I've gone back on forth on the NTH subs pretty much since they were first introduced, but have yet to take the plunge. Wondering if there's a resource somewhere out there showing every variation that's been produced? I think I like the Skipjack the most but always like some color in my watches so trying to see if there's one out there I've missed. Thanks!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

nyonya said:


> I've gone back on forth on the NTH subs pretty much since they were first introduced, but have yet to take the plunge. Wondering if there's a resource somewhere out there showing every variation that's been produced? I think I like the Skipjack the most but always like some color in my watches so trying to see if there's one out there I've missed. Thanks!


Try this.

https://nthwatches.com/collections/watches


----------



## nyonya (Jun 23, 2015)

Tanjecterly said:


> Try this.
> 
> https://nthwatches.com/collections/watches


Well don't I feel dumb - thanks!

Another question - do all watches that have shipped since last fall have the updated bracelets? For anyone that has handled both the "old" and the "new" - how much of a difference is there?


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Twehttam said:


> do I buy another before that even gets here? :-d


Clearly yes. :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bloom said:


> Doc, will you be making another run of the blue Scorpène version, or are they pretty much gone at this point?
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river...


There are a handful of pieces left with a few of our retailers. I think A Time to Watch in Canada has some. We're not planning on making more any time soon, until we see demand built up again.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> Try this.
> 
> https://nthwatches.com/collections/watches





nyonya said:


> Well don't I feel dumb - thanks!
> 
> Another question - do all watches that have shipped since last fall have the updated bracelets? For anyone that has handled both the "old" and the "new" - how much of a difference is there?


Don't feel dumb. Not every version we've made is on that page.

We took some down from the site, to make it less cluttered. The site will be mostly for models we have in production, models we have in stock, and models still available from our retailers. We don't plan on maintaining a visible archive of every model we've ever produced.

If we did, the list would be 32 right now, and 36 soon enough, maybe 40 by the end of the year - that's just for the NTH Subs.

It's too many to have on the site if we're not going to keep them all current.

EDIT/PS - Regarding the bracelet -

Every Sub we had delivered *TO US* since last November has the updated bracelet. There were some pieces of other models, and some older stock of current models, which still had (or have) the older bracelet on them.

But, if you're looking at a model which was new as of November, it's the new bracelet. Nothing in our store has the old bracelet. I think there's maybe a half dozen or so pieces among our retailers which have the old bracelet, but their prices should reflect that. The ones with the new bracelet and clasp are $25 more.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

docvail said:


> There are a handful of pieces left with a few of our retailers. I think A Time to Watch in Canada has some. We're not planning on making more any time soon, until we see demand built up again.


Thanks Doc; appreciate the info.

Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bloom said:


> Thanks Doc; appreciate the info.
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river...


From what I can see, it looks like the last pieces available are in Canada, at a Time to Watch, and in Hong Kong, at the Watchdrobe.

I'm not allowed to post links to their sites, but you can find them on the resellers page of our website.

I wouldn't sit around thinking about it. At most, it's 4-5 pieces, and that's it. They won't be there a month from now.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Some BoR photos with the Santa Cruz...


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> There are a handful of pieces left with a few of our retailers. I think A Time to Watch in Canada has some. We're not planning on making more any time soon, until we see demand built up again.


Doc,
How do you determined when the demand is " built up again"?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Doc,
> How do you determined when the demand is " built up again"?


My dog knows. She tells me.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

CMFord said:


> Some BoR photos with the Santa Cruz...
> 
> View attachment 14145219
> 
> ...


 Very nice! I can't wait until mine arrives, been having dreams about it constantly


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

She’s here! Wowza. Thanks, Doc!

Ps, the unboxing and presentation from Serious Watches was first class. And even a free RWB NATO strap. Thumbs up.

More pics soon... had to rush these.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

qiao.feng said:


> Very nice! I can't wait until mine arrives, been having dreams about it constantly


I dreamt I was sick and vomiting blood last night.

Anyone else watching the Chernobyl mini-series on HBO, or just me?

I also dreamt I left my entire watch collection in a hotel room full of hookers.

Not sure where that one came from. I know it ain't Game of Thrones.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> She's here! Wowza. Thanks, Doc!
> 
> Ps, the unboxing and presentation from Serious Watches was first class. And even a free RWB NATO strap. Thumbs up.
> 
> More pics soon... had to rush these.


Glad you like it. Kaj and his team at Serious Watches are top notch, for sure.


----------



## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

docvail said:


> I dreamt I was sick and vomiting blood last night.
> 
> Anyone else watching the Chernobyl mini-series on HBO, or just me?
> 
> ...


Could be the water, what've you been drinking doc? Sort of make sense, you got too distracted by the hookers that you left your entire collection, full of grief, you got so sick until you vomited blood


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Doc,
> How do you determined when the demand is " built up again"?





docvail said:


> My dog knows. She tells me.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


In all seriousness...

It's part art, part science.

We get emails from people asking when we'll make more of this or that model. Our retailers get the same type of messages. Some of us have mechanisms built into our website which allow people to subscribe to availability updates about specific models. We use website analytics. We do surveys. We look at comments on social media. We look at past sales history.

Generally, if we're making a dozen models in one production, like we are now, I have a good sense of how many to make of each, which are going to sell out first, etc. It's just a sense you develop over time, through experience. Some sell faster than we expect, and that's not the worst problem to have. Better to underproduce than overproduce.

Case in point, Scorpene Blue. I think we made 20 pieces for delivery early last summer. We made another 50 for delivery this past November. If they were sold out by January, and we had people clamoring for them, we'd be looking to make more. If we have 4-5 pieces left unsold, which is what we have, we don't need to make more any time soon. When we get enough requests for more, we'll know it's time to make another batch.


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

This is where my soon to arrive Barracuda Vintage Black is going to go... CAN'T WAIT !!
I spend too much time looking at watches, .. but when I saw the BVB I stopped in my tracks...

Then after looking into it dug into NTH and this blog... NTH watches check so many boxes I knew I had to have one, .. and quite honestly might just be a slippery slope.. re the Nacken modern blue , Odin , and and more...

A BIG plus for me is getting to see behind the curtain... having Doc be so present with all the behind the scenes stuff re: design, build details, watch world politics etc. Id much rather spend my money with an entrepreneur who is really invested in quality and value... the purposeful attention to detail is evident ..

I'm not one of the " gang " here yet.. love the humor in these threads......I am REALLY excited to get my first NTH..


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

View attachment 14145285

This is where my soon to arrive Barracuda Vintage Black is going to go... CAN'T WAIT !!
I spend too much time looking at watches, .. but when I saw the BVB I stopped in my tracks...

Then after looking into it dug into NTH and this blog... NTH watches check so many boxes I knew I had to have one, .. and quite honestly might just be a slippery slope.. re the Nacken modern blue , Odin , and and more...

A BIG plus for me is getting to see behind the curtain... having Doc be so present with all the behind the scenes stuff re: design, build details, watch world politics etc. Id much rather spend my money with an entrepreneur who is really invested in quality and value... the purposeful attention to detail is evident ..

I'm not one of the " gang " here yet.. love the humor in these threads......I am REALLY excited to get my first NTH..


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Black Odin Date in the wild. Sorta.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Don't feel dumb. Not every version we've made is on that page.
> 
> We took some down from the site, to make it less cluttered. The site will be mostly for models we have in production, models we have in stock, and models still available from our retailers. We don't plan on maintaining a visible archive of every model we've ever produced.
> 
> ...


Amphion Dark Gilt 
Amphion Modern Black
Amphion Vintage Black
Amphion Vintage Blue
Bahia
Barracuda Blue
Barracuda Brown
Barracuda Vintage Black
Carolina - The BSHT LE
Catalina - The Urban Gentry SE
Dolphin Ice
Dolphin Magenta
Holland - The Serious Watches LE
Nacken Modern Black
Nacken Modern Blue
Nacken Renegade
Nacken Vintage Black
Nacken Vintage Blue
Nacken Vintage White
Nazario - Watch Gauge LE
Nazario Sauro - Watch Gauge SE
Nazario Azzurro - Watch Gauge SE
Oberon
Odin Black
Odin Blue
Santa Cruz
Santa Fe
Scorpene Black
Scorpene Blue
Skipjack
Tiburon
Zwaardvis

"LE" - limited edition - we're not making more.

"SE" - special edition - available only through a single retail channel. We might make more. We might not. Depends on whether or not the retailer wants us to make more.

It's 2500 pieces, right there. Average of about 75-80 per model, but I think the range goes from 10 pieces up to over 200.

There's one not on the list, that collaboration design, which is still under wraps. I'd forgotten about that one.

We've got a new Nazario planned with Watch Gauge, plus three other new designs going into production now.

If we had all of them on the site, it would be 37, which is way too many when we want to focus attention on what's available, or what's coming soon.

We've got two more designed, not yet in production, plus another special edition in development, and two we prototyped, but decided not to produce.

Like I said, we could be at 40 different models before the year ends.

The new Nazario and the other three new designs should be revealed soon, within the next 30 days, I figure.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

CMFord said:


> Some BoR photos with the Santa Cruz...
> 
> View attachment 14145219
> 
> ...


Lovely... where did you source the bracelet. I have a SC incoming and may consider switching. TIA.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

92gli said:


> liquidtension said:
> 
> 
> > BoR on Skipjack..
> ...


I'm not really a bor fan too I think skipjack looks ok with the provided bracelet. With bor it looks a lot more like a vintage captain cook, the bor will pair well with santa cruz and barracuda vintage black due to the vintage look.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Lovely... where did you source the bracelet. I have a SC incoming and may consider switching. TIA.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Start here - https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=48866021

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Start here - https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=48866021
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Thanks Doc, I'll jump in and order. Hopefully you can combine the items then. Cheers.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

CMFord said:


> Some BoR photos with the Santa Cruz...
> 
> View attachment 14145219
> 
> ...


These pictures are making me want to order a santa cruz... No....


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Start here - https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=48866021
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Just looked, all sold out. You're doing something right there Doc.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Amphion Dark Gilt
> Amphion Modern Black
> Amphion Vintage Black
> Amphion Vintage Blue
> ...


Which have date option?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Thanks Doc, I'll jump in and order. Hopefully you can combine the items then. Cheers.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Keep reading. You won't be ordering.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Which have date option?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Some. Not all.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Just looked, all sold out. You're doing something right there Doc.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Yep.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

I see this post duped... cant see how to delete the dupe....


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Lovely... where did you source the bracelet. I have a SC incoming and may consider switching. TIA.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


This is one of the near-unicorn NTH Beads of Rice bracelets that sold out in a day last week. Made precisely for the NTH Subs line...


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> These pictures are making me want to order a santa cruz... No....


I sold the first one I owned...and then bought another because it's so good.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

MarkLH said:


> I see this post duped... cant see how to delete the dupe....


Now you're one of the guys. Takes most of us hundreds of posts to realize the site duplicates everything and makes nothing easily deletable.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

CMFord said:


> I sold the first one I owned...and then bought another because it's so good.


no.... i already have 3 in pre-orders...


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Waiting for the Allfather Odin to arrive


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

First off, I’m an idiot who obviously doesn’t wear metal bracelets.

The half link got me. I definitely should have read the posts from six months ago... whoops! So, thoughts? Try to force the screw out? Don’t think it’s going back in flush. Otherwise, I probably need a replacement half link? Urgh, totally on me.

Bask in my shame... o|


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

what did you do.. use a plier if it helps?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Bonk it with a mallet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMFord said:


> This is one of the near-unicorn NTH Beads of Rice bracelets that sold out in a day last week. Made precisely for the NTH Subs line...


Seven hours.

But who's counting?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Twehttam said:


> First off, I'm an idiot who obviously doesn't wear metal bracelets.
> 
> The half link got me. I definitely should have read the posts from six months ago... whoops! So, thoughts? Try to force the screw out? Don't think it's going back in flush. Otherwise, I probably need a replacement half link? Urgh, totally on me.
> 
> Bask in my shame... o|


1. Stop messing with that screw.

2. Remove that link and the two on either side of it by disconnecting the link from the clasp (it's a spring bar in there), and removing the next screw up the line. Just pull all three links together.

3. Replace all three of those links with three of the six replacement links Serious should have included with the watch.

4. Repeat that procedure on the other side of the clasp.

The half-links and clasp-links were all mis-made, such that only the half-links would fit the clasp-link. Additionally, the tolerances on those screws in the 1/2 link were often no bueno.

We had our vendor remake the six links on either side of the clasp, and sent them out to everyone who had one of those watches. I thought the retailers might replace the links before they shipped remaining stock, but it may be that the remade links are being sent along with the original bracelet.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks, Doc!


----------



## nyonya (Jun 23, 2015)

Thanks for the replies Doc! Wondering if you're ever thought about 70s-inspired, more colorful versions? Something with a blue face and orange bezel, as an example? I think there's definitely a market for a smaller, colorful diver!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)




----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

nyonya said:


> Thanks for the replies Doc! Wondering if you're ever thought about 70s-inspired, more colorful versions? Something with a blue face and orange bezel, as an example? I think there's definitely a market for a smaller, colorful diver!


:cough: orthos

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## nyonya (Jun 23, 2015)

hwa said:


> :cough: orthos
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're right - but the Orthos is too big for me!


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Odin today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Mil6161 said:


> Odin today
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice!! I have that one incoming. Really hope Doc restocks the BOR bracelet as I think it would look killer on this model (or my Nacken Renegade).

Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

🤣
Earning my stripes I reckon.. if it’s such a known issue.. is there a way to delete dupes? ..

when I get my BVB’ Ill have paid my ‘Initiation ‘ fee ...


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

... and then I can flood Doc w dial , color, font, and case design suggestions cause he loves to hear advice from the peanut gallery


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

MarkLH said:


> ��
> Earning my stripes I reckon.. if it's such a known issue.. is there a way to delete dupes? ..
> 
> when I get my BVB' Ill have paid my 'Initiation ' fee ...


You likely get a screen that says your post is a duplicate of one you posted within the last 10 seconds. If you see that, hit your 'back' button. Don't post it, just go back. When it goes back, your post will be in the text box you posted in. Hit reload. Presto-chango,it will post with no duplicate post.

It seems that the mods can't fix this. It has been brought to their attention dozens, if not hundreds of times. Or maybe they just don't give a r--r-rip.


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

MikeyT said:


> You likely get a screen that says your post is a duplicate of one you posted within the last 10 seconds. If you see that, hit your 'back' button. Don't post it, just go back. When it goes back, your post will be in the text box you posted in. Hit reload. Presto-chango,it will post with no duplicate post.
> 
> It seems that the mods can't fix this. It has been brought to their attention dozens, if not hundreds of times. Or maybe they just don't give a r--r-rip.


Thanks Mike .. I'll see if it happens again.. especially cause I'll probably post about 50 pictures of my BVB as no one has seen this fine watch before.. and I'm all excited ..


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Still like it after 24 hours.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Commander on mesh:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

nyonya said:


> Thanks for the replies Doc! Wondering if you're ever thought about 70s-inspired, more colorful versions? Something with a blue face and orange bezel, as an example? I think there's definitely a market for a smaller, colorful diver!


No orange PVD for inserts.

We've used most of the PVD colors worth using. It's black, really very black, blue, slightly lighter blue, brown, darker reddish brown, really dark almost black gray, dark gray, not quite as dark gray and clear/gray.

Y'all just let me, Aaron and Rusty work on the designs. We got this.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Hey, Doc, any DevilRays coming to the site soon? I think I’m down with any color/combo, so tell me “yes”, please.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Hey, Doc, any DevilRays coming to the site soon? I think I'm down with any color/combo, so tell me "yes", please.


Actually, yes.

We found a few pieces in a dank corner, all no-date (Black, Orange, and Turquoise - sorry, no white). As soon as I get them in hand, I'll send them to our warehouse, and add them to the site. It might be a week or two before it happens.

I'm not positive, but I'm maybe 63.8% sure that A Time to Watch in Canada has some, though I don't see them on the site. Trust me, if you want a with-date version, particularly the silver/white (****e), it's worth emailing Emilio there. I think he's got the black, turquoise, and white, all with-date.

If "limited edition" is your bag, Watch Wonderland in Singapore still has stock on the "DevilFox" LE, both date and no-date.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

My double-posts bring all the mods to the yard...


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

New shoes for the Commander. It's an EMG brand cork rally strap. The cork is a thin veneer on top of leather.

A leather rally strap on a dive watch? Odd, but it looks great so who cares.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Orange you glad you woke up today?









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Orange you glad you woke up today?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



redzebra said:


> View attachment 14150063


It's one of those pictures ...

I stumbled upon nth through the bsh thread and the Carolina especially. Unfortunately I was too late for the Le, but was stoked to hear about the BVB - the next best thing.

Well since then I followed this thread and pictures like yours are the reason why I really started to dig the näcken blue, barracuda brown and Odin ...

Decisions, decisions...

Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

So I got a nice surprise today.... I'm sort of speechless so I'll let a wiser man than I speak for me: 
"I blue myself"


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

^ skuzapo

Nice watch(es)!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

My Odin Blue No Date is on it's way! Can't wait!


----------



## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

Mil6161 said:


> Odin today
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 My blue no date is on it's way! Can't wait!


----------



## awrose (Aug 12, 2015)

My Nazario showed up too.... this is _nice...._


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

awrose said:


> My Nazario showed up too.... this is _nice...._
> View attachment 14151085


That is a beauty. Nicely done, Doc.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

awrose said:


> My Nazario showed up too.... this is _nice...._
> View attachment 14151085


Congrats. 
Mine is going to deliver tomorrow.
I am so particular about color matching that I panicked when I saw the pic of azzuro above yours. Bezel insert looks green lol. 
This is much better.
I hope I like it in person. 
If not going back to exchange for no date santa cruz or black odin.


----------



## awrose (Aug 12, 2015)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I am so particular about color matching that I panicked when I saw the pic of azzuro above yours. Bezel insert looks green lol.


It's definitely read as blue in every light I've looked at it in so far, but it may be a touch more green than the dial color.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I knew when I opened up the box, the Nazario Azzurro was hot. I was seriously considering grabbing one for myself.

Re - bezel vs dial color...

See my previous comments on the topic. Different materials/finishes are going to reflect the light differently. Add to that the limited ability some/many mobile device cameras have to accurately render various colors, and you're going to see some online pics that don't accurately reflect reality.

I'm not saying it's a perfect match in every light. I'm saying, it's a perfect match, or at the very least, a complementary match, in most lights. 

It's a good-looking watch, in any light. If you don't like it when you get it, don't wear it. Just send it back for exchange or refund. Someone else will want it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Goddam you, double posts.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

awrose said:


> It's definitely read as blue in every light I've looked at it in so far, but it may be a touch more green than the dial color.


Its definitely the best looking Nazario so far.
Enjoy it


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> I knew when I opened up the box, the Nazario Azzurro was hot. I was seriously considering grabbing one for myself.
> 
> Re - bezel vs dial color...
> 
> ...


Yes sorry. 
Should not have even said anything. 
I have been following this thread for a year or so and always feel bad when you have to repeat yourself over and over


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Good natural-light look at the Nazario in this video, at the ~1min mark.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Yes sorry.
> Should not have even said anything.
> I have been following this thread for a year or so and always feel bad when you have to repeat yourself over and over


Seriously, @hwa is a friend from way back, and he doesn't hesitate a second before making me repeat myself. I almost jumped out of his car to get away from him - when it was still moving. You barely know me. I ain't mad atcha.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Good natural-light look at the Nazario in this video, at the ~1min mark.


Oh yeah, thats hot.
Looks amazing


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Seriously, @hwa is a friend from way back, and he doesn't hesitate a second before making me repeat myself. I almost jumped out of his car to get away from him - when it was still moving. You barely know me. I ain't mad atcha.


Revisionist history. Fact is, i unlocked the door and accelerated hard through a sharp left turn. Almost lost him. I tried. WoT not my fault.

Also true that i ask him to repeat himself to be sure what i *thought* i heard was accurate. That man says some things...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Curious about Tiburon vs. Nacken Vintage Blue. Obviously, hands and hour marker shapes are different. 

Does Tiburon have a black dual vs. dark blue? 

Do they both have the same color bezel and bezel text? 

Are there other differences? I do see that Tiburon was available with date. 

Thanks.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Random watch anecdote from today. Paraphrased...

Work person 1: ".. and I've realized sometimes you get what you paid for."

Work person 2: "Yeah, that's why you pay more for the Rolex."

I immediately thought, "Yes, of course, Rolex is great! Most very good looking, high quality, good movements, solid reputation. No brand shenanigans mentioned in NTH thread. But you're also paying a large premium* for the name and marketing." Luckily, I was able to bite my tongue and not launch into that out loud. Would not have been cool to dissect a perfectly well made point with watch nerd stuff.

*Edit: I should have said it is widely believed that you pay a premium for name and marketing. What do I know?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Rolex is being compared to like how everyone compares every other phone to the iPhone. And the same thing is happening, iPhone has not been innovating for a while because it felt it doesn't need to.... until other does. I feel this is where it's going to go too.. the spring drive.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Curious about Tiburon vs. Nacken Vintage Blue. Obviously, hands and hour marker shapes are different.
> 
> Does Tiburon have a black dual vs. dark blue?
> 
> ...


Tiburon dial was black, Nacken Vintage is dark blue.

Same color bezel on both. Same lume used on both.

Different bezel markings, different handset.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Revisionist history. Fact is, i unlocked the door and accelerated hard through a sharp left turn. Almost lost him. I tried. WoT not my fault.
> 
> Also true that i ask him to repeat himself to be sure what i *thought* i heard was accurate. That man says some things...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kulprit (Oct 7, 2017)

You know, I’ve been pretty good over the last year with staying away from the forums (except for WRUW threads) because they lead me to buy more watches. And it’s worked; and I’ve been happy. 

But now you’ve gone and re-released the Scorpene. Damn you! I don’t need another damn watch.....

I’ll try to resist, but if you ever released a GMT version (ala Sinn 856/857 UTC) I fear my will would be inexorably crushed (does Miyota even make a 9000-series GMT?).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

No, unfortunately no 9000-series GMT.

But, if you go with Seiko movements, you have a couple of very nice NH35-offshoots with a seconds subdial and a 24-hour subdial.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Revisionist history. Fact is, i unlocked the door and accelerated hard through a sharp left turn. Almost lost him. I tried. WoT not my fault.
> 
> Also true that i ask him to repeat himself to be sure what i *thought* i heard was accurate. That man says some things...
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Adorable. You guys should elope sometime :-d


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



92gli said:


> Adorable. You guys should elope sometime :-d


That might be taking the whole "keep your friends close, and your frenemies closer" too far.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

300m Drool Proof










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sweet!

Doc Savage


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Kulprit said:


> You know, I've been pretty good over the last year with staying away from the forums (except for WRUW threads) because they lead me to buy more watches. And it's worked; and I've been happy.
> 
> But now you've gone and re-released the Scorpene. Damn you! I don't need another damn watch.....
> 
> ...


You can relax. Unless / until someone makes an affordable/reliable/accessible/automatic GMT movement which will fit into our case without major modification to either case or movement, there won't be an NTH Subs GMT.

The only GMT which is available (*if* it's available) which MIGHT fit would be the ETA 2893-2, which would double the retail price, and *if* it fit, it would require us to modify the case.

I have no idea how big Orient's GMT movement is, and it doesn't matter, because they won't wholesale their movements, which is why I also have no idea how much they'd cost.

There's no 9xxx GMT from Miyota. Can't understand why.

They make the Citizen Nighthawk. Solar quartz GMT. They make the 9xxx with a bunch of complications I don't want. No GMT.

Don't get me started...


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Actually, yes.
> 
> We found a few pieces in a dank corner, all no-date (Black, Orange, and Turquoise - sorry, no white). As soon as I get them in hand, I'll send them to our warehouse, and add them to the site. It might be a week or two before it happens.
> 
> ...


Are these still brand new devilrays? 
I am going to keep an eye on the announcements. Intrigued by the black no date.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Are these still brand new devilrays?
> I am going to keep an eye on the announcements. Intrigued by the black no date.


Brand new.


----------



## det55 (Apr 19, 2017)

I have to say, I stumbled on this thread at just the right time. As I explore the world of watches, I've become a fan of plenty of watches made by the big guys. I've also seen a few micro-brand pieces that I'd love to have, but disappointingly always seem to be sold out. I'm not a collector and I don't aim to become one, so life will certainly go on. I also understand the delicate and risky balance of making too few or too many, so I'm not about to tell Doc or anyone else how to run their business. 

This time around, however, I found this thread just before actual new stock will be made available! Thanks, Doc, for your involvement in the community and your transparency in running your business. You don't have to do that, your product seems to speak for itself, but thanks to your posts I am now hopeful I can get a watch that I would otherwise have always found to be "unavailable."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yep.

Just FYI - another bunch of models go on sale worldwide this coming Tuesday.

It'll be the Barracuda Vintage Black, the Näcken Modern Black, the Näcken Modern Blue, and the the Näcken Vintage Blue. Be advised:

1. There won't be many pieces available on the NTH site, and for some models, none at all. Retailers took 2 out of every 3 pieces we made, and what's left has been going fast. The NTH site will have NO Barracuda Vintage Black or Barracuda Brown. We're down to our last piece of the Barracuda Blue. We're out of the Näcken Modern Black no-date, the Näcken Modern Blue with-date, and the Santa Cruz no-date.

Most of the rest, it's all single-digit inventory, meaning, it's more than 80% gone. I'm not screwing around. Don't be the guy who thinks I'm holding stuff waiting for him to email me. I can't even grab a watch for my own collection. If you haven't already, get on a retailer's wait list for what you want.

2. We're still waiting to receive about 90 pieces from QC. Don't be surprised or upset if you receive an email saying your order may not ship right away. I'm hoping we'll get those 90 pieces next week, and will be able to ship them the following week.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

det55 said:


> I have to say, I stumbled on this thread at just the right time. As I explore the world of watches, I've become a fan of plenty of watches made by the big guys. I've also seen a few micro-brand pieces that I'd love to have, but disappointingly always seem to be sold out. I'm not a collector and I don't aim to become one, so life will certainly go on. I also understand the delicate and risky balance of making too few or too many, so I'm not about to tell Doc or anyone else how to run their business.
> 
> This time around, however, I found this thread just before actual new stock will be made available! Thanks, Doc, for your involvement in the community and your transparency in running your business. You don't have to do that, your product seems to speak for itself, but thanks to your posts I am now hopeful I can get a watch that I would otherwise have always found to be "unavailable."


Just so everyone understands - everything in the "In Stock" section of our site is still available *somewhere*, even if it's not available from the NTH site.

We recently added some new product page buttons for models we don't have, which will give people the option to see a list of our retailers, or get an alert when those items become available from our website (again, or, for stuff not available yet, soon). For models which are only available from one retailer, there's a button which just takes you right to that page on their website.

I know it's confusing when the site says "Currently Unavailable" when you look at all the products next to each other. We just rolled out the new buttons on the product page, so now we need the developer to either remove that text entirely, or change it to "Check Retailers/Notify Me When Available."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dubble bubble.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Just so everyone understands - everything in the "In Stock" section of our site is still available *somewhere*, even if it's not available from the NTH site.
> 
> We recently added some new product page buttons for models we don't have, which will give people the option to see a list of our retailers, or get an alert when those items become available from our website (again, or, for stuff not available yet, soon). For models which are only available from one retailer, there's a button which just takes you right to that page on their website.
> 
> I know it's confusing when the site says "Currently Unavailable" when you look at all the products next to each other. We just rolled out the new buttons on the product page, so now we need the developer to either remove that text entirely, or change it to "Check Retailers/Notify Me When Available."


That's a great idea for anyone not following this thread.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Captain America in the house.
I love it!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

basso4735 said:


> That's a great idea for anyone not following this thread.


I mostly just want the "when will it be available again" emails to stop.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Captain America in the house.


Looks awesome. Glad you're happy with it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Captain America in the house.
> I love it!


Congrats! Also a big fan of the Nazario. Dang, now I want a California Dial...


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Looks awesome. Glad you're happy with it. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.


I love it! 
Stickers off, bracelet sized.
Ready for action.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bezel insert looks a little greenish in your pics...


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Bezel insert looks a little greenish in your pics...


Hahahaha


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

Im usually the guy who’s a day late...
Glad I found these NTHs a few weeks ago , made my decision and contacted John at Watchguage to get my name on a Barracuda Vintage Black .., he’s noted his allocation is all sold by now ... whew...
NTH is getting like Rolex..people waiting in line to pay full price, and - turning ‘em away to boot

Pretty soon , if you dont have a “good relationship “ with an NTH AD.. well .. you know (🤣)


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

In my best Ron Burgandy voice, "GREAT ODIN'S RAVEN!!"










Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## jeffreyt (Mar 31, 2015)

Today's Nth email said that my new blue barracuda is in the mail.

Now I'm just waiting for the pretty brown barracuda to be listed for sale. 

Jeff


----------



## dodubb (May 22, 2017)

Like it


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkLH said:


> Im usually the guy who's a day late...
> Glad I found these NTHs a few weeks ago , made my decision and contacted John at Watchguage to get my name on a Barracuda Vintage Black .., he's noted his allocation is all sold by now ... whew...
> NTH is getting like Rolex..people waiting in line to pay full price, and - turning 'em away to boot
> 
> Pretty soon , if you dont have a "good relationship " with an NTH AD.. well .. you know (&#55358;&#56611


F'rizzle.

Email from random guy, back in April: "I want to buy a [model released in November]. Will they be available again soon?"

Us: "No. But there are still two or three pieces left with our retailers, right now."

Guy: "I prefer to buy in a bricks-n-mortar store, or from a US operation. Is that possible?"

Us: "Uhm...no. That's the last of them. We don't have any in production now, and don't know when we'll produce them again. That's the last of them, for a while, or forever."

Guy, responding *TODAY*: "When will the Barracuda Vintage Black be available?"

Me (thinking) - "Seriously?"

Me: "Uhm...Tuesday, but...you probably won't get one. They kind of sell out fast, and there's a waiting list. You may want to contact one of our retailers. We have this newsletter, sent out by email. Did you subscribe?"

Guy: "No. I just subscribed to the availability updates [the ones we literally rolled out last week]. I don't see it on Watch Gauge's site. Will it be available from Watch Gauge?"

Me: "Mmmmmmmmyyyyyeeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhhh...you're gonna want to subscribe to the email. It's not there because it's not Tuesday yet. And I don't think WG has any left in any case. If email newsletters aren't your thing, we have a blog where we post updates, and an Instagram account, and a FB group...we tend to sell out kind of fast, so you're gonna want to do something more than emailing us once a month to ask when something will be available."


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

I love the feeling when you remove the watch from a box and are completely satisfied with your purchase

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mikefable said:


> I love the feeling when you remove the watch from a box and are completely satisfied with your purchase
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Beats the hell out of "what the f*&k was I thinking?"

How many microbrand owners set up WatchRecon alerts so they can buy one of their own watches?

I got like...two. I was already seriously jonesing for a BVB and now, I think I need a Nazario Azzurro in my life.

I need a role model. Where the hell is Hornet, or one of those "Abstinence Club" jackwagons when I need him?


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> Beats the hell out of "what the f*&k was I thinking?"
> 
> How many microbrand owners set up WatchRecon alerts so they can buy one of their own watches?
> 
> ...


I can't tell you how many times I've said that. At least drunk shopping on amazon it's always a surprise when something shows up I don't remember ordering. Ordering a watch comes with the anticipation of waiting and the letdown of being disappointed with my decision. Then the task of trying to convince myself that I like it followed by admitting defeat and selling or trading. 
Completely happy with this watch. Bang up job totally. Can't wait to get a nacken now.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

docvail said:


> F'rizzle.
> 
> Us: "...we tend to sell out kind of fast, so you're gonna want to do something more than emailing us once a month to ask when something will be available."


it's obvious ( to me ) these watches are special.. and in limited supply...

I told John I'd put down a deposit to make Damn sure I didnt let this opportunity slip through my fingers... that actually makes these more desirable ( ie the "Rolex " factor .. more demand than supply.. people lined up to pay full pop and happy to just have the opportunity to do so )

I dont know of any other ( micro / boutique ) watch co. with this RDF ( Rolex Demand Factor )

Got this purchase cleared through channels ( read: the wife ...) weeks ago (?)


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Mikefable said:


> I love the feeling when you remove the watch from a box and are completely satisfied with your purchase
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ditto
I think my last 5 were a disappointment. 
Finally hit a home run.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkLH said:


> it's obvious ( to me ) these watches are special.. and in limited supply...
> 
> I told John I'd put down a deposit to make Damn sure I didnt let this opportunity slip through my fingers... that actually makes these more desirable ( ie the "Rolex " factor .. more demand than supply.. people lined up to pay full pop and happy to just have the opportunity to do so )
> 
> ...


Haters point out we're not Rolex in 3...heritage...2...

For real, I'm beyond appreciative for all the support. Deep down inside, I like feeling like the work my team does makes other people happy. It's cool that I don't have to go to work hating what I do every day.

I swear, I'm not deliberately warping the supply-demand curve to create hype, or whatever the conspiracy theory-du-jour is. I never understood people thinking that about small brands that blow up. Trust me, if I could figure out how to sell more watches, at higher prices, I'd be doing it.

We're limited by our ability to finance production costs through cash flow, as well as our retailers' ability to absorb and sell what we produce, and by my team's ability to do what I need them to do. I was telling Keil the other day, even if someone wanted to give me money to invest in the business, there really isn't anything I could do with it at this point.

Wonder-twins Aaron and Rusty work for me part time, off-hours. Ditto for Dan. We're very close to the point where I'll have to do some rejiggering of the business if we want to keep growing in spite of the limited time they can give me. I can't really afford to hire any of them to work for me full time, much less hire all of them, as much as I'd like to.

Even now, when I've pushed a lot of the work off my plate, towards them, they don't do ALL of it. I still get tied up with design details, production management, etc. Getting a few hundred pieces from QC and prepared for shipping takes me all day, and often most of the night.

A couple days back, I worked from 7am to 2am, only taking breaks to eat and make trips to the bathroom. It's 10:22, and I'm still in the office, because it's just one of those weeks.

I'm not complaining. I love what I do (most of the time). It feels amazing to be on the other side of the first few years in business, when I was a nervous wreck, on the verge of a breakdown every day.

Knowing that there are guys lined up to pay full price and still wait weeks for delivery makes it SOOOOOOOoooooooo much easier to laugh at this nonsense when it happens...


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Best news ever for the stocks for barracuda and nacken! Thanks, Chris for making them available again!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> Best news ever for the stocks for barracuda and nacken! Thanks, Chris for making them available again!


Uhm...you're welcome?

What are we talking about? We got 3 Barracudas and 4 Nackens available now/next week/next month.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> Uhm...you're welcome?
> 
> What are we talking about? We got 3 Barracudas and 4 Nackens available now/next week/next month.


oops I was referring to nacken modern blue and barracuda vintage black..


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

ugh I really don't get those guys j€rking off on the 2824. I can always source a spare 9015 should I need it... good luck with ETA on that. Even the 2892 (which is a fantastical movement) offers no practical advantages for me as a buyer. 

Only slight dislike I have is the adjusting mechanism... wish they would use an adjustment screw.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Is this one too big Doc?
Liking the new blue Nazario. Not as much as this one but it's nice.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> View attachment 14154001
> 
> 
> Is this one too big Doc?
> Liking the new blue Nazario. Not as much as this one but it's nice.


Not too big, but we only made 25 of them, and I didn't keep one for myself.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Nikita70 said:


> Is this one too big Doc?
> Liking the new blue Nazario. Not as much as this one but it's nice.


adorable dobermann, they are great dogs! 

i miss mine.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> oops I was referring to nacken modern blue and barracuda vintage black..


You're in Singapore, right? Forgive me if I'm thinking of someone else.

Watch Wonderland didn't get their order to me in time to get the Barracuda VB, but I think they ordered the Nacken Modern Blue. I'm certain Jason at the Watchdrobe in Hong Kong ordered both. I'd urge you to contact him to get on the wait list.

We've got more of the BVB in production already, for a early/mid summer release, hopefully. I can already tell I'm going to have a bunch of guys trying to crawl up my a$$ looking for one by the end of next week.

And no, I still don't keep any there.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> You're in Singapore, right? Forgive me if I'm thinking of someone else.
> 
> Watch Wonderland didn't get their order to me in time to get the Barracuda VB, but I think they ordered the Nacken Modern Blue. I'm certain Jason at the Watchdrobe in Hong Kong ordered both. I'd urge you to contact him to get on the wait list.
> 
> ...


Yes, Singapore. And yes watch wonderland, I didn't order through them (i did then I got a refund because they are not getting them to the date variant I want for nmb). I have already contacted Jason and he was very helpful in putting my name in the waiting list. That's why I thanked you for getting them! I've been waiting for them since Feb.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> adorable dobermann, they are great dogs!
> 
> i miss mine.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Somebody say Devil Ray?









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Beats the hell out of "what the f*&k was I thinking?"
> 
> How many microbrand owners set up WatchRecon alerts so they can buy one of their own watches?
> 
> ...


You called Doc.......?

......and you know where we are if you need MORE help.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> You called Doc.......?


You Rang?!










Lurch


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> You Rang?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apart from the tux, pretty accurate....


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> Haters point out we're not Rolex in 3...heritage...2...
> 
> For real, I'm beyond appreciative for all the support. Deep down inside, I like feeling like the work my team does makes other people happy. It's cool that I don't have to go to work hating what I do every day.
> 
> ...


I'm not even sure if that's you. If it is, I thoroughly enjoy a business owner who's not afraid to ruffle someone's feathers lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> I can already tell I'm going to have a bunch of guys trying to crawl up my a$$ looking for one by the end of next week.


Next week? You said I could stop by today at 3. 








:-d

(Damn... Should have photoshopped a watch over the ring)o|


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> even if someone wanted to give me money to invest in the business, there really isn't anything I could do with it at this point.


It's like you're double-dog daring me. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

This arrived recently but I haven't taken any photos till today. Love this dial and the integration of the date is fantastic. So comfortable to wear, the thinness of the watch is one of the biggest draws for me. I also am enjoying the new clasp (have an Amphion from the first run). Great watches.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mikefable said:


> I'm not even sure if that's you. If it is, I thoroughly enjoy a business owner who's not afraid to ruffle someone's feathers lol
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, that's me.

Some folks here are connected to me on FB, or members of the same groups. They'll confirm I'm an even bigger a$$hol1e on FB than I am on here. Anyone who's met me in real life will confirm I'm exactly the same person I appear to be online.

No matter what I say or do, somebody somewhere is going to get their shorts in a knot over it. I'd never be happy twisting myself into knots trying not to piss anyone off. I just let myself be who I am. It's liberating, and become part of the brand. Like it or hate it, it makes people take notice.

Just my personal observation - I think we all hate seeing the business owner grovel at the feet of the impossible customer. As customers ourselves, we feel a sense of neglect when that happens. While the business owner puts up with some guy's BS, the rest of us who patronize the business aren't being served as well. And I think we all feel a sense of revulsion watching another human being abused for the sake of earning a living.

Life's too short. I don't need that big a living. I can't buy back my self-respect once it's gone.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

"Life's too short. I don't need that big a living. I can't buy back my self-respect once it's gone."

This.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)




----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

The nacken blue. From the real pics I’ve seen it looks a bit on the teal. Is this accurate? Trying to decide between the blue or black rn.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Finally, a chance to sit in the sun, smoking some Plum Pudding and watching the world go by. Doc Vail is the man.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Please don't ask me or anyone else to tell you what color your eyes see. It's just an impossibility, from a logical standpoint. The color just is what it is. You see what you see. Words don't do this job. What I see as "blue", you may see as "green".

Rather than people discuss the color, just look at the pics. That's the color. No words needed.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> Please don't ask me or anyone else to tell you what color your eyes see. It's just an impossibility, from a logical standpoint. The color just is what it is. You see what you see. Words don't do this job. What I see as "blue", you may see as "green".
> 
> Rather than people discuss the color, just look at the pics. That's the color. No words needed.
> 
> View attachment 14156147


But one of them looks MORE blue to me! Explain that! (Jk....you already did).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This is why the "what color is it REALLY?" questions kind of drive me batty...

Same watch (literally, the exact same piece, and two of these pics were taken with the same camera):





















---

Same watch:



























---

Same watch:



























---

When guys ask me what color something is, it always makes my stomach churn. In what light? With what camera? On whose screen? With whose eyes?

Don't ask me what color something is. I could tell you it's blue, or brown, or gray, and someone will come at me saying it's really gray, or red, or black.

Just look at it. Use your own eyes. I'm not asking anyone to buy anything based on a drawing or a single image. Every watch we sell, there are dozens, if not hundreds of pictures posted online, from lots of customers, using various cameras, under various lighting conditions. I can't tell you what color your eyes perceive, or equalize all those images so that there's only one single appearance.

Bezel inserts, dials, lume, etc - they all look different based on the light, camera, your screen, etc. Sometimes the color can vary slightly from one piece to the next, or one batch to the next, but only SLIGHTLY. We haven't changed the color spec on anything, ever, from one batch to the next.

If you're not happy with it on delivery, don't wear it, send it back for a refund.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Fair enough. Extremely hard to tell they are those colors compared to the pictures I’ve seen. The pics floating the internet machine look very teal. 
This actually helped a lot 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

I’m not trying to get ideas for photo shoots on color or lighting spectrums. I bought a pair of nikes online a while back that were labeled “crimson” got them in the mail and they were as pink as something that is very pink. You’re right though, looks like a different color in every light. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mikefable said:


> I'm not trying to get ideas for photo shoots on color or lighting spectrums. I bought a pair of nikes online a while back that were labeled "crimson" got them in the mail and they were as pink as something that is very pink. You're right though, looks like a different color in every light.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm just saying, I get that a lot, and it's as I said - a logical impossibility for me to know how anyone else's eyes will perceive a color. I can tell you the RGB (red-green-blue) numbers, but unless you do a lot of this stuff, I suspect that would be like trying to describe a taste using numerical values for salty, sweet, and bitter. At best, all I'm doing is telling you that there's more green than red in a blue, or whatever, but that only gets us so far.

I don't want to be put into that position, of trying to explain all that, but also the position of feeling like I'm trying to "sell" someone by describing the product in terms which they may later feel were too flattering.

Our returns policy is the ultimate mistake-reverser. It kills me when I see someone complain about one of our watches, because the color wasn't what they expected, and yet - they kept the watch, rather than sending it back to us. Some of these guys trash us online because of it. I recently got a complaint from a guy after more than two years. He got the watch, but never wore it, because he didn't like the color, and wanted to piss in my ear about it, two years later.

When we create the product pages, we don't just use 3D renders (which are usually pretty accurate, FWIW). We also include real-world pics. We do our best to find good real-world pics which accurately portray what those watches look like in those lighting environments.

But even then - is your monitor correctly calibrated? On any given day, I'm looking at the exact same images on four different screens - two laptops, my mobile, and an external monitor - they don't all render colors the same way. I know which one is the most accurate (the external monitor), so I don't judge using any of the other screens. Mobile device screens are particularly bad for judging colors, and yet, more than half our website traffic is on mobile devices.

At the end of the day, people have to figure some stuff out without me. This is part of that stuff.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

True! And actually the color cards made it the easiest! Definitely going with blue. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

I’m enjoying these watches far too much to make complaints about colors lol. You said so exactly, that’s what returns are for if it’s that big of a deal to people. People who complain abt a product on fb have rarely ever been punched in the face for being that sassy “and it shows” lol. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> I'm just saying, I get that a lot, and it's as I said - a logical impossibility for me to know how anyone else's eyes will perceive a color. I can tell you the RGB (red-green-blue) numbers, but unless you do a lot of this stuff, I suspect that would be like trying to describe a taste using numerical values for salty, sweet, and bitter. At best, all I'm doing is telling you that there's more green than red in a blue, or whatever, but that only gets us so far.
> 
> I don't want to be put into that position, of trying to explain all that, but also the position of feeling like I'm trying to "sell" someone by describing the product in terms which they may later feel were too flattering.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you deal with a lot up uptight people lol.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

I think, if the other watches are like the azzurro, regardless of exact shade, PD Blue would be a good description (or GNDUD blue for the more sensitive)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mikefable said:


> It sounds like you deal with a lot up uptight people lol.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You misspelled "watch geeks".


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Mikefable said:


> I'm enjoying these watches far too much to make complaints about colors lol. You said so exactly, that's what returns are for if it's that big of a deal to people. People who complain abt a product on fb have rarely ever been punched in the face for being that sassy "and it shows" lol.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was asking a few days ago about azzuro color match of bezel and dial and probably irritated doc a little bit. 
All i can say is if you remotely like the pics of any model just get it. Much nicer in person. I still cant get the accurate color to show on my photos.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> You misspelled "watch geeks".


It's beyond annoying to see those guys on posts. If anyone has seen the new glycine add for their Pepsi colored bezel. They are out in force. Stfu and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Fresh from fedex



















NTH Odin


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mikefable said:


> It's beyond annoying to see those guys on posts. If anyone has seen the new glycine add for their Pepsi colored bezel. They are out in force. Stfu and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Funny you mention it...

The Glycine was all over my FB feed earlier this week, largely due to one of Keil's buddies posting it to a few groups I'm in.

My first, immediate, gut reaction - change the hands to some snowflakes, you have a decent quality Tudor GMT homage, minus the GMT and the

My second thought - I owned a Glycine Combat Sub, from before they got bought by Invicta, and they weren't all that.

My third thought - wow, those ain't photos, they're 3D renders, and not very good ones.

There was one thing in particular I was looking at, and sent it to Rusty. He saw it right away - the finish on the lower right lug looks like wood-grain or something. It's really weird. The Combat Sub I owned had circular brushing on the case. No idea what their renders are supposed to show, unless it's deliberately meant to look like a finger print on the case.

I get geeky sometimes, when I get onto thinking about this stuff, and one thing just leads to another...

We do vertical brushing on the NTH Subs' bracelets, and lug-to-lug brushing on the case, so all the brush strokes line up. I never really understood circular-brushing on a case like that, where vertical is an option.

And yet, a lot of companies do it, including Rolex and Tudor (though not on every model). I think it looks like $hlt, to have circular brush strokes on the top of the lugs, running right into vertically-brushed end-links.

It's one of those little things I think about when people say we're just ripping off Rolex or Tudor. I mean, if I wanted to make a 1:1 clone, we could do it, easily. And I'm not just doing things differently for the sake of being a little different. We think about this stuff, and if we think it makes more sense to something a different way, that's how we do it.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> Funny you mention it...
> 
> The Glycine was all over my FB feed earlier this week, largely due to one of Keil's buddies posting it to a few groups I'm in.
> 
> ...


I had dislikes and criticisms abt it as well. I'll mention it with a friend that is into watches as well. I don't take time out of my day to troll on a fb ad ****ting on everything. What's more annoying (as with your fb post on here earlier) is the handjobs that THINK they know wtf they are talking about. Everything in my soul not to begin trolling these guys

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> It's one of those little things I think about when people say we're just ripping off Rolex or Tudor. I mean, if I wanted to make a 1:1 clone, we could do it, easily. And I'm not just doing things differently for the sake of being a little different. We think about this stuff, and if we think it makes more sense to something a different way, that's how we do it.


I really like the case upgrades over Rolex/Tudor.

Drilled lugs
Better bezel grip
12h bezel dot is recessed and you won't have to fear to chip of that nipple
stainless steel insert beats aluminium and ceramic 
sharper lugs as on some vintage rolex subs - looks more refined
polished line a la Seiko for elegance
crown inside the case design to avoid fat crown shoulders and have protection

Also, I am a big fan of "star" brushing as seen on vintage amphibias. Its different from most things and reflects light nicely.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Please don't ask me or anyone else to tell you what color your eyes see. It's just an impossibility, from a logical standpoint. The color just is what it is. You see what you see. Words don't do this job. What I see as "blue", you may see as "green".
> 
> Rather than people discuss the color, just look at the pics. That's the color. No words needed.
> 
> View attachment 14156147












There's the vintage blue without the bezel affecting the dial appearance. Bezel lightens the look.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I'll tell you this about case finishing. This gen Rolex is not finished better than the slew of NTHs I've owned and still own.

True, this is older, but unretouched.










And hell, the alpha case compares favorably, too










There are other things you could compare, but finishing steel isn't rocket science.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm not saying it's *bad* finishing. I'm just saying, based on the case shape, circular brushing isn't necessary, and as such, it doesn't make sense to me.

Case geometry makes certain brushing directions impossible, or mandatory, depending on the surface contours.

We did circular brushing on the top of the DevilRay. That was the only possible choice, due to the case shape. We did vertical brushing on the sides of the Tropics. Again, only choice possible, given the case geometry.

We could brush the top of the Subs' case like Rolex, if we wanted to, but we don't *have* to. We could do either circular or lug to lug. With the vertical brushing on the end links, lug to lug just seems obvious to me.

It's like the subs-seconds markers on some dials. I still see people breaking the seconds up into five increments, but none of them are using 5bps movements. It's outdated, doing something without thinking about it, because that's how someone has seen it done.

I've seen people gush over the circular brushing on a Rolex, even as they're posting pics showing the clash in brush strokes as the lugs meet the links. I always wonder what Rolex was thinking. 


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Please don't ask me or anyone else to tell you what color your eyes see. It's just an impossibility, from a logical standpoint.


Funny thing. Every person has slightly different amount and distribution of "red", "green", "blue" cones in their retinas. AND they may have slightly different reactivity curves (after all, you get people who are "red-green colorblind" etc. just because there's not enough separation in the perception spectra...). In short, from a purely biological and physics standpoint, different people have different eyes, that (demonstrably) perceive colors a little bit differently than others.

Funny (or at least anecdotal) thing #2: My left eye sees "warmer", more saturated colors in sunlight, compared to my right eye. Not a huge difference, but it's noticeable. How effed up is that, eh... same brain doing the color processing, same head, ostensibly same DNA from eye to eye, and STILL there's difference in the retinas.

Even if we all get the display and computer color rendering issues solved, there will still be no solution to these color-difference issues. It's just not how humans are built.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Funny thing. Every person has slightly different amount and distribution of "red", "green", "blue" cones in their retinas. AND they may have slightly different reactivity curves (after all, you get people who are "red-green colorblind" etc. just because there's not enough separation in the perception spectra...). In short, from a purely biological and physics standpoint, different people have different eyes, that (demonstrably) perceive colors a little bit differently than others.
> 
> Funny (or at least anecdotal) thing #2: My left eye sees "warmer", more saturated colors in sunlight, compared to my right eye. Not a huge difference, but it's noticeable. How effed up is that, eh... same brain doing the color processing, same head, ostensibly same DNA from eye to eye, and STILL there's difference in the retinas.
> 
> Even if we all get the display and computer color rendering issues solved, there will still be no solution to these color-difference issues. It's just not how humans are built.


You're telling me that different people have different eyes, have you seen those spooky peepers glaring out of the face of Chronopolis in his avatar pic? I have to scroll real fast when one of his posts comes up, he dun bin staring at me like a wild, dingbat staring thang........

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> You're telling me that different people have different eyes, have you seen those spooky peepers glaring out of the face of Chronopolis in his avatar pic? I have to scroll real fast when one of his posts comes up, he dun bin staring at me like a wild, dingbat staring thang........
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


You should see him in real life...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> You should see him in real life...


You won't see him... But he WILL SEE YOU. With his creepy eye buckets. STARING.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Mint Azores today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I have been wearing my Cerberus all week. The 9015 has been running at about +3 seconds per day.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

My Nazario has not gained or lost a second over last 50 hours.
I also totally missed a memo that the crown has no "ghost date" click or whatever it is called and not that I would mind but pretty cool.
Also a pic


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Waiting on my new links, but every day I have to at least see her... so so good, Chris!


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> My Nazario has not gained or lost a second over last 50 hours.
> I also totally missed a memo that the crown has no "ghost date" click or whatever it is called and not that I would mind but pretty cool.
> Also a pic


Colors on this are near perfect, the California dial isn't my thing but even so it looks perfect. And the miyota is a MN amazing movement.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> My Nazario has not gained or lost a second over last 50 hours.
> I also totally missed a memo that the crown has no "ghost date" click or whatever it is called and not that I would mind but pretty cool.
> Also a pic


Good looking watch. Didn't think I needed one, but as usual, I'm questioning that conclusion.

Are you sure about no date position for the crown? The NTHs I've handled have it. Not that it bothers me at all.

Mine are all no-date. I've thought it interesting that I never hear/feel the date change. It must be a Miyota thing. I can sense the change without looking on a lot of my other watches.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Maybe five minutes outside under a cloudy sky. Crazy lume.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Good looking watch. Didn't think I needed one, but as usual, I'm questioning that conclusion.
> 
> Are you sure about no date position for the crown? The NTHs I've handled have it. Not that it bothers me at all.
> 
> Mine are all no-date. I've thought it interesting that I never hear/feel the date change. It must be a Miyota thing. I can sense the change without looking on a lot of my other watches.


Yeah you are probably right, must have missed it.


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

Still one of my favorites!!!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

gelocks said:


> Still one of my favorites!!!


Nice.

I think the Santa Cruz looks great on the bracelet. But you've inspired me to give it a try on a strap.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, the specs on the NTH site all say 9015, but we do use the 9039 when it makes sense, usually with no-date only models, when we're not also assembling with-date versions using the same hands.

So, yes, in some cases, there will be a true no-date movement in the case, and thus, no phantom date change position.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Guys, the specs on the NTH site all say 9015, but we do use the 9039 when it makes sense, usually with no-date only models, when we're not also assembling with-date versions using the same hands.
> 
> So, yes, in some cases, there will be a true no-date movement in the case, and thus, no phantom date change position.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


RIP Doc's inbox because people will now be *****ing and demanding a 9039


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Taken my wife to a 25 mile time trial this morning. She managed it in 70 minutes!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Watchoss (Apr 6, 2019)

Trip to The Arches National Park.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> RIP Doc's inbox because people will now be *****ing and demanding a 9039


Exactly.

I debated changing the specs on the site, and discussing it all publicly, but figured the explanation was simply too complex, and no doubt it wouldn't satisfy many people.

The phantom date change really seems to have become the WIS hang-up du jour. Personally, it's never bothered me, and as the manufacturer, it irks me to no end, in its illogic.

Follow me here...

I could make all the watches with date windows. I've done that before. Many companies do.

But, some guys want a no-date version. No problem, I say, you'll have it.

So I give you a dial with no date window. Problem solved. No loss of symmetry.

But nooooooooooo...some jackwagon has to turn phantom date change positions into a crime against humanity.

The 9015 didn't have a no-date variant, in the same way the Swiss movements do. For years, the only alternative was the open-heart 90S5, which, last I heard, cost 2/3 more than the 9015.

But then, Miyota makes the no-date 9039. Hallelujah, right?

Not so much. Different hands post, and different hands setting heights, which means we get visually identical handsets, but which are not, in fact, interchangeable. So using both the 9015 and the 9039 in the same production becomes an unending parts sourcing, assembly, QC and post-sale nightmare.

So, now, instead of guys who want a no-date version being happy it's available as an option, guys are upset about a useless position on the crown. Some say we're cutting corners, and cheaping out.

Those guys don't have a clue.

There are some things that make me want to put a watch in a tube sock and beat a man about the head, neck, and shoulders with it. The phantom date change complaint is high on the list.

On a separate note..."shoulders" is another weird word. If "should" is pronounced "shood", then I really think the tops of the arms should be pronounced "shooders", and we've all been saying it wrong as "shoalders".

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> So, now, instead of guys who want a no-date version being happy it's available as an option, guys are upset about a useless position on the crown. Some say we're cutting corners, and cheaping out.


This is the ironic part: people don't want a phantom date which is solved in two ways:

1) Get a no date movement, which you already said isn't straightforward.
2) Order custom crown pivots without the offending indentation or however is named.

Both cost money, which obviously as customers we have to pay, this is capitalism 101.

But because some logical acrobatics, it's the manufacturers cheaping out, not the customers, nevermind that juggling two different stocks for the same item (effectively speaking, two SKUS), already costs money and you're paying for it.

I wouldn't mind paying a bit more for removing the phantom date, but I know quite well I'm in the minority and I don't make a fuss.

I swear this hobby attracts the most autistic and emotionally stunted people... The only worse hobby is Warhammer 40k.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> This is the ironic part: people don't want a phantom date which is solved in two ways:
> 
> 1) Get a no date movement, which you already said isn't straightforward.
> 2) Order custom crown pivots without the offending indentation or however is named.
> ...


Full disclosure - I'm not a watchmaker.

That said...

When we used the STP's, we got both with-date and true no-date movements. My understanding is there are two main differences. There's the lack of a date wheel, obviously, and a small difference in one part. It's not really part of the crown assembly.

It's called a setting lever jumper. There's one for a with-date movement, and a slightly different one for the no-date. It's just a very small metal part:









In theory, we could just replace that part on a with-date movement, and move on down the road. Obviously, if we didn't also take the date wheel off the movement, someone would eventually ask about it, and the revelation that we didn't go the extra step would no doubt drive people to call for my self immolation.

Side note - someone recently asked me if there was a date wheel under the dial of a no-date watch, or if we removed the wheel, even though the date-change position remained. I mean...why would we?

The challenge here with Miyotas, as compared to the other movements, is that with STP's, the parts are ETA clones. If we need to convert a with-date movement to a no-date movement, or vice-versa, we can just order that one part for an ETA, and do the swap.

Parts supply houses don't stock the part for Miyotas, as far as I know. And it's not like we can just ask Miyota for them. Miyota doesn't sell direct to guys like me, or even guys like my OEM. They sell to wholesale distributors in Hong Kong, who sell to the OEMs. When I try to talk directly with Miyota or Seiko, they completely ignore me.

Even if we could get the parts, we'd have to pay for them, and pay to have them swapped into the with-date movements, and pay to have the date wheels removed. It's costly, and when it also leads to other issues, like damaged movements, we have even more costs.

We ordered date and no-date movements from STP, in the proportional quantities we needed them. The only time we've had to mess with swapping in that part to do the conversion is when we had to replace a bad movement, and needed to convert from one to the other. It's not like we were paying to convert them all before assembly.

We very rarely need to replace 9015's, and I expect the 9039 will be the same.

So, there really aren't a lot of good alternative solutions here...

1. Pay 2/3 more for the no-date 90S5. I don't even know if the hands height is the same as the 9015, but assuming it is, I can't imagine people being willing to pay the added price we'd have to charge.

2. Make everything no-date, and just use the 9039 for everything. There goes all my sales to guys who want the date.

3. Use the 9015 for everything, and tell people who complain about phantom date change positions to shut up (in a nice way, but, still, shut up).

4. Try to manage using both 9015 and 9039 simultaneously, which is going to inevitably drive higher prices, because of the added costs and work involved, thanks to Miyota's decision to use different hands heights. Again, I can't imagine people being willing to hear, understand, and accept the explanation.

5. Use both, the way we are, and try to deal with the never-ending questions about why some watches with no date window still have the 9015, if we're also using the 9039 in other no-date models.

6. Use both, the way we are, and just stay mum about it, until the subject comes up on a public forum.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You should see him in real life...


Brilliant, innit.

Ric


----------



## Digital_1 (Jan 6, 2014)

Loving my Scorpene on the nato.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Want a perfect color match between dial and bezel?

Buy the black one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double post.

You get random pic from my downloads folder...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Yep. Black









By the way, 90S5 identical cost as 9015 in some corners. I picked up a few the other day...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Sunrise at the beach with the Blurracuda today:

























And as a bonus, fresh turtle nesting tracks this morning. Seeing these makes me hopeful that we haven't managed to poison our oceans beyond recovery yet:


----------



## tc3 (Feb 10, 2012)

Think I found a strap that works well. Happy Sunday!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Yep. Black
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My comment was based on a discussion about it with Jason Lim, of Halios, back in 2016, when we were both in Hong Kong, and he'd bought a bunch of them to make the no-date Seaforth. At *THAT* time, the number he quoted was 2/3 more than what the 9015 was at that time. I asked my OEM to look into it, and he confirmed it.

This was also after Sujain had used the 90S5 on the Avalon, so I knew it cost more, at least as recently as 2015.

If you're buying "a bunch" - is that a few hundred, or a few pieces?

I buy a few hundred at a time. Buying a few doesn't tell you what they really cost, when purchased in bulk. If someone had some small number for sale, odds are they didn't need them, and were looking to unload them. They might have been happy just to get their cost back. It's not like there's a red-hot market for open-heart Miyota movements.

But, since you mentioned it...I just checked the drawings on both. It appears the 90S5 has the same hands-height as the 9015. I can check with my OEM about the price, but, if it was the same, he'd know it, and he'd have suggested we use it.

On a related note - this reminds me of a recent debate with a repeat-wingnut who frequents some of the same FB groups I do. He recently said the NH35 was a $17 movement.

Really? How would he know? Seiko doesn't advertise their bulk prices. Neither do their wholesalers in HK.

I asked him to post a link to where they could be purchased in bulk, at that price. I knew he couldn't do it. He didn't do it, of course, and got defensive/insulting about it.

It's a funny business. I've owned a lot of cars. Never considered myself knowledgeable enough to argue with an auto manufacturer about them. But the internet abounds in guys who've never produced a watch, yet want to argue with me about them, because they've owned a few.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

When I say I picked up a “few,” I meant three, specifically. I bought them new from a well-known parts supplier located in the States, who requires an account to purchase. 

Of course, I’ve got nothing to say about your prices. Don’t know nothin’ bout that, except to surmise that if one can be had at the same price as the 9015, chances are either that the 9015 was jacked, or the 90S5 was being closed out. Given price I paid, I’d say the 9015 was about 10% high compared to what I’ve heard from guys sourcing them off the ‘bay, and the 90S5 I really don’t know how to assess. I only got the S5 because I’m using them in no-date builds and the price was the same. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Watchoss said:


> Trip to The Arches National Park.


Where on LI do you reside?


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> Exactly.
> 
> On a separate note..."shoulders" is another weird word. If "should" is pronounced "shood", then I really think the tops of the arms should be pronounced "shooders", and we've all been saying it wrong as "shoalders".
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> When I say I picked up a "few," I meant three, specifically. I bought them new from a well-known parts supplier located in the States, who requires an account to purchase.
> 
> Of course, I've got nothing to say about your prices. Don't know nothin' bout that, except to surmise that if one can be had at the same price as the 9015, chances are either that the 9015 was jacked, or the 90S5 was being closed out. Given price I paid, I'd say the 9015 was about 10% high compared to what I've heard from guys sourcing them off the 'bay, and the 90S5 I really don't know how to assess. I only got the S5 because I'm using them in no-date builds and the price was the same.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Understood. I wasn't reading anything into your post which would relate to my prices.

I honestly haven't thought about the 90S5 since 2016, when it was 2/3 higher. If prices have come down to equal the 9015, AND if the hands post is the same height, I want to know about it.

But I can't judge based on one guy sourcing one or three movements online. That means nothing to me, just like one guy's experience with a movement means nothing to me. I have access to larger data sets, and more relevant, current info. No reason I shouldn't make use of them.

There's one way to know - I ask my OEM.

I've asked my OEM to check the price relative to the 9015, and confirm the hands height. If it's an option, then I'll be glad you made me look into it by raising the issue. If not, then it was just a small waste of time, and I can continue thinking I'm doing things as I should be. No harm, no foul.

Prices from parts suppliers or on eBay aren't indicative of my actual costs.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> My comment was based on a discussion about it with Jason Lim, of Halios, back in 2016, when we were both in Hong Kong, and he'd bought a bunch of them to make the no-date Seaforth. At *THAT* time, the number he quoted was 2/3 more than what the 9015 was at that time. I asked my OEM to look into it, and he confirmed it.
> 
> This was also after Sujain had used the 90S5 on the Avalon, so I knew it cost more, at least as recently as 2015.
> 
> ...


Well I need to slightly disagree with you here. How many microbrand cars are there? The barrier to entry in the micro watch world is quite small. The ability to buy and source parts is farily easy to get. Not too long ago you were sitting on the other side of the table. I guess the point I am trying to make is that the ability to access the supply chain in which you live is not impossible for someone who has a passion for watches. Everyday we see more and more brands start up. Success and longevity is what you have on them and experience. Many start and many fail and many that do find success don't last as long as you. You no doubt have "made it" and the $17 dollar guy was likely talking out of his ass. But the ability to find out pricing and supply chain metrics is far from hard. Making it all work is another story all together.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> Well I need to slightly disagree with you here. How many microbrand cars are there? The barrier to entry in the micro watch world is quite small. The ability to buy and source parts is farily easy to get. Not too long ago you were sitting on the other side of the table. I guess the point I am trying to make is that the ability to access the supply chain in which you live is not impossible for someone who has a passion for watches. Everyday we see more and more brands start up. Success and longevity is what you have on them and experience. Many start and many fail and many that do find success don't last as long as you. You no doubt have "made it" and the $17 dollar guy was likely talking out of his ass. But the ability to find out pricing and supply chain metrics is far from hard. Making it all work is another story all together.


You're allowed to disagree with me. People do all the time. Most of them are wrong.

Pricing on a movement is one thing - *JUST* one thing.

Not a month goes by I don't get someone trying to tell me something about what I do, based on their experience owning a few watches. There are layers upon layers of depth to it. One day it's movement pricing, the next it's finishing, or specs, or QC, or shipping, or materials, or whatever.

Owning a few, even a few dozen watches doesn't make anyone an expert in their manufacture, no more than having owned a few dozen cars makes me an expert on making them.

There's nothing fundamentally different in the basic process of making a microbrand watch as compared to how the bigger brands do it, so we can leave the micro label out of it. There are brand owners who don't know what they're doing, at both big and small brands. If they don't know, someone who's never done it surely won't, either.

Every day, nonsense gets spouted online, believed, and repeated, by people who really don't know what they're talking about, yet for some reason feel empowered to argue with someone who does. It's why I've stopped commenting much in other threads on WUS.

People can argue with me, but I'm not just repeating what I've read from others. I'm actually dealing from firsthand knowledge of the subject, having made it my business to know all I can about my business.

Meh. People can believe what they want, including nonsense. As long as it doesn't affect my business, it's nothing to me.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I got a decent deal for this 9015 and the guy threw the case, hands, dial, crystal and bracelet in for free


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

I got a first-class deal on my 9015 too, also managed to snaffle a genuine and very rare NTH Beads of Rice bracelet to totally enhance the package 
and dial it up to 11..........









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...mark you calendars, it turns out I was wrong.

My OEM informed me last night that the 90S5 is no longer that much more expensive than the 9015. It's not quite 10% more, as opposed to the 2/3 more it was as recently as 2016.

Good news, so far, and cheers to Andrew for making me aware of the possible change in the state of affairs.

It also seems that the hands-height is the same as the 9015. More good news.

I asked about using the 90S5 for no-date versions of models which have a date/no-date option. Why haven't we been doing that, if it's such an obvious solution?

That's where it apparently gets tricky...and, THIS, right here, ladies and gentlemen, is EXACTLY the sort of thing that makes actually RUNNING a business like mine different than simply reading about it online, and checking movement prices...

Miyota sells the movements to a wholesale distributor, who sells to the OEM's. Part of the reason it's so tedious for me to argue movement prices with someone online is that they're not sold over the counter like groceries. They're more like commodities. Prices can vary with supply and demand, and the time of year.

Plus, it's really not exactly like *I* have a price on movements. It's more like my OEM has a price, and they build that into my total production cost. Yes, every component has its cost, but my OEM needs to make a profit, too, so it can be difficult for either of us to do a line-item breakdown of what each component costs them versus costs me. I wouldn't ask them to do it. 

I don't need to know the cost of any one component, other than situations in which I need to know how two or more alternatives for a single component compare in cost.

When my OEM orders movements, they're supposed to order each in a certain quantity, according to the wholesaler. And, even with a movement like the Miyota 9 series, where the defect rate is extremely low, they have to assume SOME defect rate, and the small rate makes it difficult to plan.

For example - 

Let's say we're assembling 500 watches, which gets broken down as 200 no-date only (for which we'd want the 9039), and 300 date-optional - 150 with-date (9015), and 150 no-date (90S5). But, what if they're required to buy at least 200 pieces per caliber? They end up having to buy 100 more movements than they need, and either using them on another project, or selling them.

Let's say they assume a 1% defect rate. The wholesalers don't take them back. They just buy 1% extra. How many extra pieces would you buy if you were buying 150 pieces of a calibre?

The numbers aren't exactly that way. I think both the MOQ's and the defect rate are lower, but it does create some additional challenges for my OEM, especially now that I'm asking them to assemble and ship me 300 watches every other month, with just 25 pieces of some versions.

So...we'll see what we can figure out. 

---

Only to clarify my earlier point, about people online arguing with me...I'm not suggesting I know it all, and am always right, and everyone on forums or in FB groups knows nothing. Far from it. There are lot of very knowledgeable people online, and a lot of what I now know is the result of having them tell me what I once thought was actually wrong.

I can't count the number of things I've been wrong about. It's mortifying, and I'm still embarrassed by some of my past posts. Most of what I thought, which I later discovered was wrong, was stuff I'd read online.

My point is, reading WebMD doesn't make someone a doctor. Reading legal advice online doesn't replace hiring a lawyer. Even going to law school, and passing the bar, doesn't yet make you a really GOOD lawyer. 

True mastery comes from experience. In his book, "Outliers", Malcolm Gladwell found that it generally takes 10,000 hours of practice to become truly proficient.

Where do you go to learn about the business of manufacturing watches? Here, other forums, and FB groups, of course. But, how many people here have actually mass produced watches, and are sharing their insights? 

Very few. The sad fact is that a lot of what people online say is just repeated information, not necessarily correct. But it keeps getting repeated - what the Swiss Made rules say, Seiko owns Orient, how parts are made, how much they cost, working conditions, etc, etc, etc.

When I enter the picture in some discussions, and try to shed light on a topic, you'd think the knowledge that I actually make watches would get reasonable people to listen and defer to my experience, just like I don't argue with the doctor about how the body works, or argue with my accountant about tax law, or a mechanic with how my car works, but...that's not always what happens.

Many people seem to believe that having equal access to the internet makes us all equal in our knowledge, but clearly, that can't be. There's a huge difference between dialing up a factory to get a cost quote on making a watch (or buying movements), and actually knowing what it really costs to make them. Knowing the ostensible price of a movement isn't really the same as knowing that the prices change, and that the price quoted isn't really the price paid.

It's not just costs. It's everything. There's no one price on a component. No one MOQ. I've come to understand that the facts-of-life in this industry can vary between brands, depending on a number of factors. I've read comments from people, saying things I know for certain they heard from someone else, yet it's clear to me that they never fully understood it when they heard it, because they're oblivious to the context.

The Swiss Made rules don't actually say what so many people seem to think they say. Seiko doesn't own Orient. Cases which aren't CNC-machined also aren't cast from molten steel. "Sweat shops", "factories", "middle men" - so many wrong "facts" being tossed around, and vigorously defended, beyond all reason.

In most cases, I have no dog in the fight. If I try to enlighten someone, that's all I'm trying to do - shed light on a topic, to correct misinformation. If I'm vehemently stating something, rest assured that I am 100% certain what I'm saying is correct, because I know from experience that if I'm wrong, someone will come along to make sure I know it. 

Before I go full-on-vehement, I double-check that I'm right about what I'm saying. If you're arguing with me about something related to making watches, and you're not in the business of making them (and, sadly, even if you are in some cases), odds are high you're incorrect in what you believe, and you should accept what I'm telling you.


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> On a separate note..."shoulders" is another weird word. If "should" is pronounced "shood", then I really think the tops of the arms should be pronounced "shooders", and we've all been saying it wrong as "shoalders".


"shooders" - rhymes with that wet stuff that comes out of the faucet in philly.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> So...mark you calendars, it turns out I was wrong.
> 
> My OEM informed me last night that the 90S5 is no longer that much more expensive than the 9015. It's not quite 10% more, as opposed to the 2/3 more it was as recently as 2016.
> 
> ...


Always interesting to read the inside story of the watch business. Thanks, Doc.

Doc Savage


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> , and you should accept what I'm telling you.


tl;dr

Summary above...

Ok, what's the next watch? I can't wait.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_2966.jpg


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone lose a watch?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Soooo, of course, the Subs with the 9039 movement are a few fractions of a millimeter thinner than the ones with 9015, due to shorter hands post, right?

#BurnItDown


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 14164371


He's back!?!?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Soooo, of course, the Subs with the 9039 movement are a few fractions of a millimeter thinner than the ones with 9015, due to shorter hands post, right?
> 
> #BurnItDown


You want on the frenemies list?

Because that's how you make the frenemies list.


----------



## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

Finally! Thank you Doc and John. My first NTH Sub, but definitely won't be my last


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> tl;dr
> 
> Summary above...
> 
> Ok, what's the next watch? I can't wait.


c'mon...you know what we have to do for counterbalance when chris starts warming up the wot machine...photos!

































...the year of the 'nth degree'...thumbs up!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Watcher said:


> c'mon...you know what we have to do for counterbalance when chris *starts warming up the wot machine*...photos!


Please.

The machine stays on, all the time, so it stays warm. That's the only way my WOT's can meet their spec.

Otherwise, it's just a bunch of sub-par quality, and nothing but complaints from our WOT customers.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Seiko doesn’t own Orient?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> So...mark you calendars, it turns out I was wrong.
> 
> My OEM informed me last night that the 90S5 is no longer that much more expensive than the 9015. It's not quite 10% more, as opposed to the 2/3 more it was as recently as 2016.
> 
> ...


What I think you said: it takes 10,000 hours on average to be an expert, but an average guy can get lucky in hella less time. :boom:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

10,000 hours! Inconceivable!

I’m sure there is a Wikipedia page for it. Much faster. Even without WiFi. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Anyone lose a watch?


The other day I was playing with excel/(onlyoffice) and created a sorted list of my watches with attributes.

Some of them had serial numbers on the caseback, others didn't. 
I think 99.9% of the people don't care, at least I have never heard anyone talk about it but it would be a nice to have imo.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Seiko doesn't own Orient?


Seiko does not own Orient.

People think they do. People are wrong.

People argue with me about it in 3...2...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Seikogi said:


> The other day I was playing with excel/(onlyoffice) and created a sorted list of my watches with attributes.
> 
> Some of them had serial numbers on the caseback, others didn't.
> I think 99.9% of the people don't care, at least I have never heard anyone talk about it but it would be a nice to have imo.


I'm a big fan of serial #s for dating and record keeping - and the silly fun of finding special pieces (birthday watches, etc.). I wish everyone did this.


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> Seiko does not own Orient.
> 
> People think they do. People are wrong.
> 
> ...


I do not like my Epson printer, despite its longevity. I just don't think it does a quality job. I've had it probably 8 years. And it's longevity is now making me like it even less, because it prevents me from having the appropriate motivation to replace it.

This makes me wary of purchasing an Orient. I'm afraid I won't like it much, and I'll be slightly disappointed with various aspects of it, but that it will just keep running forever without any maintenance and I'll be stuck with it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

When I bought this watch a couple of years ago, I could of sworn that the bezel was a single shade of blue. When I looked at it tonight, it's morphed into multi-blue.

Wait....is it even blue???










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> When I bought this watch a couple of years ago, I could of sworn that the bezel was a single shade of blue. When I looked at it tonight, it's morphed into multi-blue.
> 
> Wait....is it even blue???


Blue-Green, aqua, turquoise ish

Alpina calls it Glacier Blue



Gorgeous color, especially on a vintage Corvette.










GM called it Quasar Blue


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> 3. Replace all three of those links with three of the six replacement links Serious should have included with the watch.


All is right with the world again... time to get this on my wrist. |>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Seiko does not own Orient.
> 
> People think they do. People are wrong.
> 
> ...


Had this argument sooooooo many times.

Side by side comparison:









ME: "They're separate companies. Both publicly traded, under distinct ticker symbols. Seiko doesn't own Orient."

PEOPLE: "But it's *SEIKO* Epson Corporation, *SEIKO*!!!"

ME: "Right, which trades simply as 'Epson', not 'Seiko Epson'. They had some shared history, but not anymore. Look - separate ticker symbols, separate headquarters, each company has its own chairman, CEO, and president. One makes Seiko watchess, the other makes Orient Watches. How do you not see that they're not related in any way, and that Seiko certainly doesn't own Orient?"

PEOPLE: "But they're both part of the Seiko Group, so they're technically owned by Seiko.

ME: "Technically, you're being an idiot."









The part in yellow is accurate. The part outlined in red, in the gray section, is not, as far as I can tell.

Seiko Holdings (what we think of as "Seiko") owns SII (Seiko Instruments), which makes the movements for Seiko. SII wholesales those movements through TMI (Time Module). They always have a big booth at the HK show.

Orient (part of Epson) doesn't make the movements for Seiko. They make movements for Orient. They had their own big booth at the HK show when I was there last year, 2 booths away from the TMI/Seiko booth.

None of the products are the same. None of the management is the same. They both trade separately, and report their own revenues. Anyone who understands how to tell when one company isn't related to another company can tell these two companies ain't related.

Except watch geeks. A lot of them are still not sure Seiko doesn't own Orient.

And a lot of those guys want to argue about it.

PS/EDIT - if all that logic doesn't work, try math. Look at the revenue figures for Seiko - 257 Billion. Now look at Epson - 1 trillion.

How does Seiko end up with less revenue than Orient if Seiko owns Orient?

Anyone? Anyone? Anyone?

Anyone?

Seriously, anyone?

Keep going. Look at the employees count - 13k for Seiko. 68k for Epson.

I'll wait while the watch geeks gather to figure out how I'm wrong this time.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Twehttam said:


> All is right with the world again... time to get this on my wrist. |>


That blue celophane - looks a little greenish in your pics.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



yankeexpress said:


> Blue-Green, aqua, turquoise ish
> 
> Gorgeous color, especially on a vintage Corvette.


Sweet 'vette.

Doc Savage


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Had this argument sooooooo many times.
> 
> Side by side comparison:
> 
> ...


That time that no one argued with Doc, so he went on autopilot, replied to his own comment, and argued with no one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> That time that no one argued with Doc, so he went on autopilot, replied to his own comment, and argued with no one.


That's how efficient my operation has become.

I'm ending arguments before they've even started.

Y'all can thank me later.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sonic_driftwood said:


> I do not like my Epson printer, despite its longevity. I just don't think it does a quality job. I've had it probably 8 years. And it's longevity is now making me like it even less, because it prevents me from having the appropriate motivation to replace it.
> 
> This makes me wary of purchasing an Orient. I'm afraid I won't like it much, and I'll be slightly disappointed with various aspects of it, but that it will just keep running forever without any maintenance and I'll be stuck with it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Honda Civic/Accord. Will bore you long before it breaks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> That's how efficient my operation has become.
> 
> I'm ending arguments before they've even started.
> 
> Y'all can thank me later.


Why are we supposed to care whether orient and seiko share ownership, control, influence, employees, management, or even a lunchroom or proximity to the same starbucks?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Why are we supposed to care whether orient and seiko share ownership, control, influence, employees, management, or even a lunchroom or proximity to the same starbucks?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You shouldn't. I don't.

But, for some reason, insisting that Seiko owns Orient is one of the hallmarks of the 23 stages of WIS evolution, along with arguing over homages, IP law, whether or not Rolex ripped off Blancpain, and a zillion other stupid things which seem important enough for WIS to argue over.

None of the stages of WIS evolution ends with being a fully-formed human, by the way. You START as human. It's all just decay and the wheels coming off from there on out.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Barracuda Vintage Black ordered!


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

liquidtension said:


> Barracuda Vintage Black ordered!


Same

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

liquidtension said:


> Barracuda Vintage Black ordered!


Mine arrived, the date version. Sweet watch. Fun to contrast and compare with the Carolina, which is no-date.


----------



## jeffreyt (Mar 31, 2015)

My new blue Barracuda on a synthetic orange strap.

This is my third L&H and/or Nth.

Jeff


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Coriolanus said:


> That time that no one argued with Doc, so he went on autopilot, replied to his own comment, and argued with no one.


I wish I could like a comment twice


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

liquidtension said:


> Barracuda Vintage Black ordered!


I call shenanigans, there's no stock still on serious watches!!!!

That's the one I've been waiting for.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

That time Doc was telling people for months to get on a retailer's wait list, but people didn't, and were then shocked to find they couldn't buy the watch they wanted...

Yep, it's official, the race to find a Barracuda Vintage Black hidden up my rectum is on. Multiple emails and messages from guys on social media, asking when they'll be available, hitting me like the strong aroma of I told you so, with hints of where-have-you-been...



Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

docvail said:


> Yep, it's official, the race to find a Barracuda Vintage Black hidden up my rectum is on.


Doc, please report to the Proctology OR. #sphincteralert


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

This is insane.
5 days on the wrist. 
I went through 60 watches in the last few years, only Ginault was this accurate. 
I have had some COSC certified watches too and even they gained a few seconds over 2-3 days. Now if I only had the ghost date underneath the dial to make sure date flipped at midnight that would be sweet.

#greenpvdbezelinsert


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

I grabbed my NTH BVB when the first batch became available. The gilt dial is hard to beat.









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

MarkND said:


> I grabbed my NTH BVB when the first batch became available. The gilt dial is hard to beat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed.









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

b-)


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Ho. Lee. Schnikeys.



















Put on your sunglasses for this next pic..










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

after going through all kind of straps I came to the conclusion that I like the sub case best on a bracelet. I think what bothers me most is the empty space between strap and case. Since the lugs don't have any bevel and "tall" walls it feels incomplete. 
I know... OCD

the pineapple slayer personally...


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Seikogi said:


> after going through all kind of straps I came to the conclusion that I like the sub case best on a bracelet. I think what bothers me most is the empty space between strap and case. Since the lugs don't have any bevel and "tall" walls it feels incomplete.
> I know... OCD
> 
> the pineapple slayer personally...
> View attachment 14166989


Get a thicker strap?
Here is the Nacken I had.
Sold after realizing I am not a fan of snowflake hands


----------



## det55 (Apr 19, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> after going through all kind of straps I came to the conclusion that I like the sub case best on a bracelet.


Busted out the ol' credit card for one of these this morning. Why isn't it here yet!?!
I'm spoiled by Amazon Prime and I'm somewhat more excited for this purchase than for a bulk shipment of dish soap or whatever it was I bought last on Amazon. 
You guys should hire some robots and oompa loompas to get that 2-day shipping magic.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I am not a fan of snowflake hands.


GTFO.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Get a thicker strap?
> Here is the Nacken I had.
> Sold after realizing I am not a fan of snowflake hands


Had it even on an Isofrane (the Borealis one) and still, I somewhat enjoy the SEL more.

It was mostly rubber straps though as I started going swimming quite often and also shower with it.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> GTFO.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Sword hands for life


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

det55 said:


> Busted out the ol' credit card for one of these this morning. Why isn't it here yet!?!
> I'm spoiled by Amazon Prime and I'm somewhat more excited for this purchase than for a bulk shipment of dish soap or whatever it was I bought last on Amazon.
> You guys should hire some robots and oompa loompas to get that 2-day shipping magic.


Congrats!

I know this feeling... I sometimes feel like a crack junkie, refreshing those tracking apps every other minute.

Mine came from Serious and I waited around 3 days I believe. The packaging was lovely done btw.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

det55 said:


> Busted out the ol' credit card for one of these this morning. Why isn't it here yet!?!
> I'm spoiled by Amazon Prime and I'm somewhat more excited for this purchase than for a bulk shipment of dish soap or whatever it was I bought last on Amazon.
> You guys should hire some robots and oompa loompas to get that 2-day shipping magic.


Seriously, we've been shipping in-stock items the same day, if not the next day.

Why DON'T we have a teleporter, am I right?


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Had this argument sooooooo many times.
> 
> Side by side comparison:
> 
> ...


I'm a day late on this discussion, but here's an aid for the visual learners:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> b-)
> 
> View attachment 14166961


*True / sad but maybe funny story - *

Keil called me yesterday. Guy bought some NTH Subs from him (yes, some, more than a few), but had a lot of concerns with the quality on delivery, and wanted to gripe.

Ruh-roh. Tell me more.

He had a list. Some of it was the usual "I expect perfection even when it's unreasonable" stuff I sometimes have to deal with, but there were also some items which were next level...

The guy was convinced one of the bezel inserts was "double-stamped" (I guess he thinks they stamped the markings in it twice), and the lume smeared all over the bezel.

"Let me stop you there. We were delayed in production because the bezel inserts on several models needed to go back to be re-made, which means, my guys are looking closely at all of them, if they caught bad ones, and insisted they be re-done. I've seen inserts being stamped. The guy standing at the machine would NEVER bother to stamp one twice, and if he did, there's NO WAY it would get to assembly, much less through QC.

"When we get them, Dan 'if there was a problem, yo, I'll find it' the watchmaker does our final QC. Maybe one in 500 pieces will slip past him with something amiss, but that something ain't gonna be a 'double-stamped' bezel insert with lume smeared all over it. Tell the guy to send you some pics."

So...the guy sends some pics to John, who sends them to me, saying he doesn't know what the guy is talking about, and he doesn't see anything wrong.

But I did...

I $hlt you not, in one pic, the numbers on the bezel looked like the 30 on the pic above, which is to say "out of focus", by a lot. And the pic was obviously taken indoors, with the flash on.

The bezel insert wasn't double stamped. The pic was out of focus.

The lume wasn't smeared, the flash caught the brush-strokes in the insert.

I've never seen this before, but I realized - this guy must have really bad eyesight, and is using the pics to inspect the watch, rather than his own eyes, but as bad as his eyesight must be, his photography skills were so, so, so much worse.

The more I looked at it, the crazier it got. The side-walls of the bezel teeth looked like they were all sloped, not straight. Nothing really looks "right" in an out-of-focus pic, and the pics didn't even make the watch look the same from one shot to the next. Like, how does he not realize he's looking at a Shaky Hands McGee photo montage?

I told John to ask the guy if he's looking at the watches using his own eyes, or if he's looking at the pics, and if he says it's his own eyes, and he's convinced that's what the watches look like, tell him to send them all back for a refund...but...wait a minute...

The guy already removed the bracelet on one (got that BOR on there). He's been wearing at least that one. Which raises the question - how does a guy with eyesight THAT bad manage to get the bracelet off the case, at all, but more importantly, without scratching it all to hell?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> I'm a day late on this discussion, but here's an aid for the visual learners:
> 
> View attachment 14167257


Stick to lawyering, pal.

The problem (I think) for so many people, is all that "Seiko" in that disorganization tree. Seiko must own Orient, because the parent company name has "Seiko" in it. Telling them that's really just "Epson" doesn't put the cat back in the bottle, once he's out of the barn.

Know what I mean?


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

Just ordered the barracuda vintage black no date 

I've got to say: my experience with serious watches is extraordinary. Very nice and helpful - and as I continued to bug them about the availability of the bvb they told me I was on the list already 

Now the waiting game begins /o\

Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Poerger said:


> Just ordered the barracuda vintage black no date
> 
> I've got to say: my experience with serious watches is extraordinary. Very nice and helpful - and as I continued to bug them about the availability of the bvb they told me I was on the list already
> 
> Now the waiting game begins /o\


Congrats!!! Cannot recommend Serious enough. Mildly kicking myself for not picking up a BVB, but am looking forward to your pics.


----------



## green_pea (May 10, 2016)

Odin on canvas.
Anyone have any photos on rubber?


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> That time Doc was telling people for months to get on a retailer's wait list, but people didn't, and were then shocked to find they couldn't buy the watch they wanted...
> 
> Yep, it's official, the race to find a Barracuda Vintage Black hidden up my rectum is on. Multiple emails and messages from guys on social media, asking when they'll be available, hitting me like the strong aroma of I told you so, with hints of where-have-you-been...
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Thanks for the suggestion!

One thing I'm not sure affects you or not, but I tried getting on several retailer lists and it was not very intuitive to find out where to subscribe. Would help them for future business to make that process more visible/easy.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

I had no clue that Epson owned by Seiko.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion!
> 
> One thing I'm not sure affects you or not, but I tried getting on several retailer lists and it was not very intuitive to find out where to subscribe. Would help them for future business to make that process more visible/easy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Not trying to be a d1ck here, but, every time I said it, the gist was, "contact your closest NTH retailer, and register your interest/get on their waiting list." There's an implied action which needs to be taken in that statement - the contact.

It's not the sort of thing easily built into a templated ecommerce website. It's all done with website contact forms and email.

Sorry if the message wasn't clear. Would have happily clarified if I knew there was confusion about any of it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...influencer story of the day, a sneaky little $hlt is threatening me with a slander suit (he means libel, but whatever) because I outed him and his fake charity scam on Instagram...









This kid's been pestering me by email for months, making the usual pitch - send us free stuff, we'll make you a social media sensation. I blew him off, until today, when he actually replied to the auto-responder email which says don't also submit the contact form on the website if you're here emailing us.

His response was just to say he'd already done both.

That kind of irrational exuberance just begs to be smothered.

I told him we weren't interested (bluntly), and he should go away (clearly). That didn't sit well with him, apparently, because he sent me a tidy little response on manners, suggesting my business might be more successful if I had some.

No. You. Didn't.

Forum rules won't let me post screen-shots of our exchange. Even if they did allow it, the profanity would get me booted.

So, now you've got my attention, kid. Congratulations. You're about to find out why you were better off before I knew your name. You didn't want me looking at your IG profile, and spotting that "Help the Troops" hashtag. Really, you didn't.

Know why?

Because I got the name "Doc" by serving as a medic in the Army, just like my Dad served, and his Dad, and his uncles, and my uncles, and my other grandfather, and lots of guys who don't cotton to the whole fake charity/stolen valor thing.

So, I look up the business...

Total scam, claiming to support veterans and Wounded Warrior Project. Fake patriotism has never been more fake or less patriotic...















.

Following this so far? "We ARE (present-tense) big supporters of the WWP. Huge."

But, maybe not really...









You silly little bastard. You have no idea what sort of $hlt-storm you just created for yourself, because you couldn't accept "go away" without getting in that one parting shot.

Next I looked him up, using his email domain - lion18marketing.com. We live in a digital world. You'd think a punk kid fresh out of college would know that.

First stop, his Upwork profile.









Bethel, PA, outside Pittsburgh. $30/hour. Your email said you're the CEO of a top-tier social media marketing firm. Your Upwork profile says you live with your parents and probably stink of Axe body spray.

Three seconds on Google, I had his LinkedIn profile, too. Upwork says he's based in State College, PA (Penn State). LinkedIn profile shows Penn State, and a location of Pittsburgh. That's our boy.

Not on IG? It's okay. You can still view my post here -

__
http://instagr.am/p/BxvhqZ-FmfF/
.

Since then, he's been rapid-firing emails into me, threatening legal action (slander, which I tried to explain was really libel), and telling me that he's not the same guy, despite having the same exact name, an email address the same as the name of his Upwork profile, and all the other ironclad proof he seems to not understand.

No, I'm not worried. I'm also not a lawyer, but I know the truth is an absolute defense against a libel claim. That much of a lawyer, I am.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I mashed my nose when I ran into my friends deck, because I wasn’t watching where I was going...

This feels similar. 

I learned something from it, hope that kid does too.


Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Still loving the BoR!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I mashed my nose when I ran into my friends deck, because I wasn't watching where I was going...
> 
> This feels similar.
> 
> ...


I swear to God this is true...he's trying to convince me he's not THAT Kevin Krieger.

I mean...he emailed me, from his Lion18Marketing email address, and gave me a link to his IG profile, which has a link to his website.

He must be the only social media influencer on the planet who doesn't realize how social media works.

Just Googling his name and email domain gets you right to his Upwork profile and LinkedIn profile.

Upwork - Kevin Krieger, Lion18Marketing, LLC, lives in Bethel Park, PA, outside Pittsburgh, PA. Founded his business in State College PA, where Penn State is.

LinkedIn - Kevin Krieger, in Pittsburgh metro area, went to Penn State (home of the Nittany LIONS), class of 2018.

That's not YOU, Kevin?

Really?


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

green_pea said:


> Odin on canvas.
> Anyone have any photos on rubber?












This?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Doc, I liked the biannual donation he promises. Thats very generous, giving $0 every other year! He probably meant he’d give $0 twice a year. 

Hahahahaha 

What a moron. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Doc, I liked the biannual donation he promises. Thats very generous, giving $0 every other year! He probably meant he'd give $0 twice a year.
> 
> Hahahahaha
> 
> ...


Yeah.

Did you see the blurbs scroll on his site? It reads like the audience reviews for the Amazing Alexander, "I loved it. It was much better than Cats. I'm going to see it again and again."









































I also went to Penn State. I know the difference between semi-annual and bi-annual. I'm embarrassed we share an alma mater.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> That time Doc was telling people for months to get on a retailer's wait list, but people didn't, and were then shocked to find they couldn't buy the watch they wanted...
> 
> Yep, it's official, the race to find a Barracuda Vintage Black hidden up my rectum is on. Multiple emails and messages from guys on social media, asking when they'll be available, hitting me like the strong aroma of I told you so, with hints of where-have-you-been...


They told me they aren't allowed to make pre-sales and the best they could do is give me a heads up when it went live. Got a text yesterday and I'm here in the office pressing F5 on the site hoping to get their only Barracuda.

So it's not that I somehow failed to reach the retailers


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Poerger said:


> Just ordered the barracuda vintage black no date
> 
> I've got to say: my experience with serious watches is extraordinary. Very nice and helpful - and as I continued to bug them about the availability of the bvb they told me I was on the list already


I hate you so much, now it's sold out.

Enjoy it and cherish it, you jerk.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

You can still get it from thewatchdrobe, albeit wait a little while as it ships from HK but only no date variant is available https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/sub-barracuda-vintageblack


----------



## green_pea (May 10, 2016)

are you saying you don't like my ODIN and don't want it to procreate?


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

liquidtension said:


> You can still get it from thewatchdrobe, albeit wait a little while as it ships from HK but only no date variant is available https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/sub-barracuda-vintageblack


Thanks for the tip, I'll think about it because I don't really want to deal with taxes here in Spain. That was the big appeal of a local dealer so they could do the work for me


----------



## coffeebreak (Jun 22, 2013)

Are NTH watches available in any retail shops in Singapore?


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Is the date on the new Scorpene at 6 or at 4:30?


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Is the date on the new Scorpene at 6 or at 4:30?


4:30, which if you ask me, should be defined as a crime against humanity.



liquidtension said:


> You can still get it from thewatchdrobe, albeit wait a little while as it ships from HK but only no date variant is available https://www.thewatchdrobe.com/products/sub-barracuda-vintageblack


In other news I could finally order a Barracuda Vintage Black no date from Serious Watches. Who I may say are a dear to deal with, outstanding people!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Pato_Lucas said:


> In other news I could finally order a Barracuda Vintage Black no date from Serious Watches. Who I may say are a dear to deal with, outstanding people!


Even better: You get a stroopwaffle. Or at least they did that with early orders. Let me know if they still do it, as I'm targeting them for my next order. In the meantime, I'm going to try and get Watchgauge to buy some stroopwaffles.


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> Even better: You get a stroopwaffle. Or at least they did that with early orders. Let me know if they still do it, as I'm targeting them for my next order. In the meantime, I'm going to try and get Watchgauge to buy some stroopwaffles.


Really?, that's a lot of winning for a day!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)




----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

Pato_Lucas said:


> 4:30, which if you ask me, should be defined as a crime against humanity.
> 
> In other news I could finally order a Barracuda Vintage Black no date from Serious Watches. Who I may say are a dear to deal with, outstanding people!


Glad you could get one 

I guess that means, that someone didn't pull the trigger on his reserved one.

Those guys are fast 
I ordered yesterday and tomorrow it will arrive tomorrow (if one can trust the estimate of USP).

Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

Poerger said:


> Glad you could get one
> 
> I guess that means, that someone didn't pull the trigger on his reserved one.
> 
> ...


Well, I was one of those who reserved one. I suppose there was some miscommunication one my side because I saw no stock on the website and asumes I was left out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Even better: You get a stroopwaffle. Or at least they did that with early orders. Let me know if they still do it, as I'm targeting them for my next order. In the meantime, I'm going to try and get Watchgauge to buy some stroopwaffles.


S'true, as Dave says, just like this:









Serious Watches are seriously good to deal with, fab communication, delivery and thoughtful packaging, oh, yeah and stroopwaffles as a thank you - gotta be good, highly recommended.

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ragl said:


> S'true, as Dave says, just like this:
> 
> View attachment 14169439
> 
> ...


Dood I want a stroopwaffle!! Screw the watch!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pato_Lucas said:


> They told me they aren't allowed to make pre-sales and the best they could do is give me a heads up when it went live. Got a text yesterday and I'm here in the office pressing F5 on the site hoping to get their only Barracuda.
> 
> So it's not that I somehow failed to reach the retailers


That's correct. They were not to take pre-orders. I asked them to start a wait or alert list of those people who are interested, and let them know when the watches became available.

I know some did keep an actual list, and worked down it, in order, the way you'd think a wait list would be worked. If some simply put them up for sale, and alerted everyone on the list, okay, then that's what they did.

As the brand owner, there are some things I can dictate to retailers, and some things I can't. I can tell them not to take deposits or pre-orders until they've received inventory and we're all ready to start selling. I can't really force them to use a wait list, and work it the way I might, or some others might.

We have more Barracuda Vintage Blacks in production already. There will be more.

I'm sorry you didn't get one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

coffeebreak said:


> Are NTH watches available in any retail shops in Singapore?


Yes, Watch Wonderland. I'm not allowed to post a link, but you can find one in the list of retailers on our website.

Not in Singapore, but, in Asia, we also have the WatchDrobe, in Hong Kong.



DuckaDiesel said:


> Is the date on the new Scorpene at 6 or at 4:30?


4:30.



Pato_Lucas said:


> 4:30, which if you ask me, should be defined as a crime against humanity.


Oh c'mon!!!

It's a big-number pilot. That means 3-6-9-12. You want me to ruin the symmetry by putting the date at 3, or 6? That's cutting off 25% of the BIG NUMBERS.

I'll go to my grave knowing I'm innocent of these charges.



Pato_Lucas said:


> In other news I could finally order a Barracuda Vintage Black no date from Serious Watches. Who I may say are a dear to deal with, outstanding people!


All that pissing and moaning, and look at you now, happy as a clam.

That's another one - what makes clams so happy? Little a-holes ain't got legs, or arms, or fins, or eyes. They basically sit around and do nothing until someone shucks one.

We need better sayings.

Happy as a fat kid with a candy bar. That makes sense. We'll use that from now on.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Poerger said:


> Glad you could get one
> 
> I guess that means, that someone didn't pull the trigger on his reserved one.
> 
> ...





Pato_Lucas said:


> Well, I was one of those who reserved one. I suppose there was some miscommunication one my side because I saw no stock on the website and asumes I was left out.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well...here's the thing...

If you're going to keep a wait list, and you're not taking deposits, then it makes sense to just keep adding to the list, even if it gets more names than you'll have watches to sell them, because you don't know which guys are going to bail out when asked to buy.

So, it could be that they had more on the list, and got to you, or, and it could be that you thought you had one guaranteed simply because you were on the list (which is not how it works).

Kaj at Serious did tell me he had so many on the list, he'd sold them all before they even listed them on the site, and I know Keil did as well. I think Page & Cooper, too.

It's good to be the hot girl at the prom. I'm used to being the fat guy at the buffet, asking when they'll re-fill the mac-n-cheese.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Well...here's the thing...
> 
> If you're going to keep a wait list, and you're not taking deposits, then it makes sense to just keep adding to the list, even if it gets more names than you'll have watches to sell them, because you don't know which guys are going to bail out when asked to buy.
> 
> ...


Doc....when are they going to refill the Mac and cheese?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> S'true, as Dave says, just like this:
> 
> View attachment 14169439
> 
> ...


*True story*

My wife liked the Holland, so I kept one for her, which was fine with Kaj. But I sent it to some friends to check out, and one of those wanted to buy it. Never being the fat kid to pass up a candy bar, I sold it to him, and ordered another from Kaj.

Got the box - no Stroopwafel.

You don't even know how deflated I was. I literally dumped the box over and went through all the packing materials twice, to make sure we didn't overlook it.

Nope.

No stroop. No wafel.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Doc....when are they going to refill the Mac and cheese?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


There's never been a buffet on the planet which had enough mac-n-cheese.

Something fat people know about other fat people - they like mac-n-cheese, and they love buffets.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> There's never been a buffet on the planet which had enough mac-n-cheese.
> 
> Something fat people know about other fat people - they like mac-n-cheese, and they love buffets.


Accurate

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> Dood I want a stroopwaffle!! Screw the watch!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


S'too late - I've eaten it already.......

Edit: and I ain't fat........


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Just too good.










And a lume shot next to the Bahia last night.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pato_Lucas (Aug 21, 2015)

docvail said:


> Oh c'mon!!!
> 
> It's a big-number pilot. That means 3-6-9-12. You want me to ruin the symmetry by putting the date at 3, or 6? That's cutting off 25% of the BIG NUMBERS.
> 
> I'll go to my grave knowing I'm innocent of these charges.


I blame the people who purchase watches that doesn't need a date to begin with.



docvail said:


> All that pissing and moaning, and look at you now, happy as a clam.


As a Spaniard I have to piss and moan about something, sorry but not sorry XD



docvail said:


> That's another one - what makes clams so happy? Little a-holes ain't got legs, or arms, or fins, or eyes. They basically sit around and do nothing until someone shucks one.
> 
> We need better sayings.
> 
> Happy as a fat kid with a candy bar. That makes sense. We'll use that from now on.


Happy as Pato with a new watch?



docvail said:


> It's good to be the hot girl at the prom. I'm used to being the fat guy at the buffet, asking when they'll re-fill the mac-n-cheese.


Well, you've earned it, to be the hot girl I mean, not sure if you need more mac-n-heart-attack 

Now go make a Phantom DLC using the subs case! that's what mankind needs!



docvail said:


> *True story*
> 
> My wife liked the Holland, so I kept one for her, which was fine with Kaj. But I sent it to some friends to check out, and one of those wanted to buy it. Never being the fat kid to pass up a candy bar, I sold it to him, and ordered another from Kaj.
> 
> ...


Oh well, I'l have to stop by HEMA then


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

Woo Hoo!! Order placed w John for a BVB No Date... Im almost a card carrying NTH owner... ( at this point its just my charge card carrying the debt &#55358;&#56611

now that Im almost “in” the club.. Im looking for the promotional swag... logo’d beer can foam coolers.. lanyards, key fobs, stickers, patches, and embroidered stocking caps... Im sure all will be incredibly well designed and carefully thought out by Doc, Aaron & Rusty

Im like a kid waiting for the decoding ring as ive sent in all the required boxtops.......


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

Woo Hoo < dupe post >


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> S'too late - I've eaten it already.......
> 
> Edit: and I ain't fat........


Yet.


----------



## arrvoo (Jan 17, 2015)

Ordered from Page and Cooper yesterday, arrived today. Gilt dial is amazing









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

What has two thumbs, and just posted a video chat with Tony Villa of Deaumar?

THIS GUY!!!


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Damm Doc, you are killing me. 
Ordered Odin this morning and Devilray just now.
Yep I subscribed after you said you ll be putting them back.
So excited!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Yes, Watch Wonderland. I'm not allowed to post a link, but you can find one in the list of retailers on our website.
> 
> Not in Singapore, but, in Asia, we also have the WatchDrobe, in Hong Kong.
> 
> ...


It's because they smile, anthropomorphically speaking, ya booger

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Just landed Downunder....









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

arrvoo said:


> Ordered from Page and Cooper yesterday, arrived today. Gilt dial is amazing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Innit?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Skipjack today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Damm Doc, you are killing me.
> Ordered Odin this morning and Devilray just now.
> Yep I subscribed after you said you ll be putting them back.
> So excited!


Yep.

That's the last of the DevilRays, and the Antilles. There won't be more added unless and until we do another big production.

Y U no order rubber strap for your DevilRay? I added some of those to the site today, too.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Yep.
> 
> That's the last of the DevilRays, and the Antilles. There won't be more added unless and until we do another big production.
> 
> ...


I had to pay for shipping. JK I don't like using rubber

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

After about 30 hours, the Nazario Azzurro is running about +3 sec/day. I'll take it!



















It's a mighty fine watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

I hate the waiting game. I also hate not having a detailed tracking ...

Perfect weather and I'm afraid to even go into the garden just not to miss ups

/blog

Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Nazario









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Man those Nazarrios are sick...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I had to pay for shipping. JK *I don't like using rubber*
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


No one's going to touch that?

Really?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Yep.
> 
> That's the last of the DevilRays, and the Antilles. There won't be more added unless and until we do another big production.


Just to clarify - that wasn't the last piece. We have a few more. I was just saying - the few pieces we just added are the last few of the original production. When they're gone, we won't get more unless/until we make more.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> No one's going to touch that?
> 
> Really?


Haha yea I was surprised too

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

I propose a beauty contest. Which NTH Sub looks best on the NTH BOR bracelet? (Sorry if I missed any others, these were all the images in the thread that aren't throwing errors at the moment).

Carolina









Scorp Blue









Skipjack









Santa Cruz









'Cuda Vintage Black









Nacken Modern Blue









Nacken Vintage White









Nacken Vintage Blue









Whatever the hell this thing is









*Others to nominate?*


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

@JakeJD This work??









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> @JakeJD This work??


Updated! :-!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

JakeJD said:


> I propose a beauty contest. Which NTH Sub looks best on the NTH BOR bracelet? (Sorry if I missed any others, these were all the images in the thread that aren't throwing errors at the moment).
> 
> Carolina
> 
> ...


SmiNTH Oberest? Everon? What it is, is flat awesome. Wait'll you see the Odin when I'm done with it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> No one's going to touch that!


TWSS

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Nazario
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good, innit?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> TWSS
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, Rusty, well played.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> Good, innit?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Antilles today:









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

JakeJD said:


> I propose a beauty contest. Which NTH Sub looks best on the NTH BOR bracelet? (Sorry if I missed any others, these were all the images in the thread that aren't throwing errors at the moment).
> 
> Carolina
> 
> ...


So far, I'd say the Santa Cruz or the Antilles above just posted.

The nacken is close behind.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

ryan850 said:


> So far, I'd say the Santa Cruz or the Antilles above just posted.


Complete Bracelet to head look? I'm going with the Skipjack on this one.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

^^^^
I would have to go with the Santa Cruz looking the best on the BoR. The colours and style just works the best. Then maybe the Nacken White as a second, although it would be interesting to see a Santa Fe on a BoR as well. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Skipjack on BoR looks badass, so it wins. Close second is Santa Cruz on BoR, it looks very "miami cocaine" kind of badass, so it almost wins on the whole and absolutely wins during summer.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Santa Cruz on BOR is standout, but I would love to see a Nazario Sauro - the white one -on a BOR.

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Yes, Rusty, well played.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Legit LOL.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All the other kids are quoting the ginormous wall of pics, so figured I would, too...



JakeJD said:


> I propose a beauty contest. Which NTH Sub looks best on the NTH BOR bracelet? (Sorry if I missed any others, these were all the images in the thread that aren't throwing errors at the moment).
> 
> Carolina
> 
> ...


Plus - BONUS!

Multi-quote post, with the wall of pics. Yes, I know, I'm awesome. You don't need to say it.



azsuprasm said:


> Complete Bracelet to head look? I'm going with the Skipjack on this one.





X2-Elijah said:


> Skipjack on BoR looks badass, so it wins. Close second is Santa Cruz on BoR, it looks very "miami cocaine" kind of badass, so it almost wins on the whole and absolutely wins during summer.


I'm with these two. Something about the Skipjack and the BOR just feels so right, and I don't wanna be wrong.

All the others look "right" on the Oysters. Not that they don't look good on the BOR, but the Skipjack and BOR look like they were meant to be together, IMO.

So...Skipjack - my final answer.

Also, I've seen a lot of badass, but never even heard of Miami cocaine badass. That's going in the "whip it out later" file.


----------



## Sotelodon (Apr 20, 2018)

docvail said:


> All the other kids are quoting the ginormous wall of pics, so figured I would, too...
> 
> Plus - BONUS!
> 
> ...


Wow, the scorp blue is just awesome


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

my vote is for santa cruz on BOR

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

I bet Oberon looks great on the BOR, too (we could ask @hwa to show us, but his has been heinously dismembered).

I'm also leaning toward the Santa Cruz looking the best (although Nacken White is pretty dang sexy, too).

Which is hard on me - because I already owned and sold a Santa Cruz (which I do regret), and I don't have any watch money, but now I have a bracelet that feels like it was separated from the Santa Cruz at birth. Which is giving me longing, man.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

I vote Santa Cruz. The lume looks so ... delicious. The waffle texture on the dial makes it very vintage imo.

Nobody asked, but my 2 cents on the BOR.

Wish it had 20/16mm taper and an integrated clasp like this one.

Other than that.. its perfect imo .. although I am more of a jubilee guy.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> I am more of a jubilee guy.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

rpm1974 said:


> Good, innit?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, you got me. I yield! I like the Nazario. I'm afraid to check if they are still available. Either answer is a bad one.

After this, I'm serious, NO MORE! I can't like ALL of the subs. Its just not practical. They are good value. But you start stacking sub upon sub upon sub and the cost starts to add up.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I think it would be skipjack, santa cruz and barracuda for me.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Holy moly, I am digging Santa Cruz on strap.

Decent photos by my standards. But the live eyeball view is still better.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

BOR? Skipjack or Blurracuda for me. Either/or.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just FYI, to all, FWIW...

We've shifted over 90% of the inventory on the most recent batch of Subs.

To make that clearer - between what my retailers have taken, and what people have bought directly from the NTH site, it's more than 90% gone.

The NTH site is sold out of:

- Barracuda Brown
- Barracuda Vintage Black - both date and no-date
- Nacken Modern Black - both date and no-date
- Nacken Modern Blue - both date and no-date
- Odin Black no-date
- Santa Cruz no-date

Everything that's left- single digits. I've got 44 pieces left available on our site, total, no more than 7 pieces on any one version.

That's not to say all those are unavailable everywhere else, other than the NTH website. I believe some of those are still available from our retailers, but...it can't be many. 

I've been trying to get the retailers to report back to me on the sell-through. Early this week, they had all moved around 60% of those pieces they'd received and we'd started sales on. That was before we started the next round of sales on Tuesday, which was a good day for all involved.

I don't think any of them have any of the Barracuda Vintage Black left, but...you never know, check with The WatchDrobe in Hong Kong, maybe.

Yes, Watch Gauge still has some Nazarios left. I don't think it's too many. I actually had dinner with Keil tonight, and he was wearing his. It's a panty-dropper, and I don't care who that offends. 

If you want one of the current batch of NTH Subs, seriously, I mean it, you don't want to screw around thinking about it. This ain't that kind of party. I ain't that kind of DJ. My email has been blowing up with people asking if what's "sold out" is really "sold out", and when we'll make more.

I've been accused of over-stating the demand, in order to create some sort of self-perpetuating/insatiable-demand hype cycle. Uhm...it ain't me, and it ain't hype. I'm just trying to do my job here, letting people know what we have for sale, and when, and how to get it. 

It's a milkshake. It brings boys to the yard. That's what milkshakes do. Don't hate the shake machine.


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Santa Cruz wins the BOR beauty contest IMO.

There could be a wildcard entrant though, haven't seen a pic of the combo but the Holland could be badäss...


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

EL_GEEk said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have this on order. Can't wait to see it real life, slightly different and unisex (I can swap between myself and wife)


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

TGIF.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Ragl said:


> Santa Cruz on BOR is standout, but I would love to see a Nazario Sauro - the white one -on a BOR.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan




Old Strapcode BoR with finagled endlinks.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Since I missed out on the BoR flash sale, this will have to do 

(Reposts, sorry x2)





































I'd still give the nudge to the Santa Cruz. Followed by the Skipjack and Nazarios, which perhaps tie for second place.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

The Holland on the BoR could be a wild card, but I still stick with the Santa Cruz as my favourite for now. The Santa Fe could be interesting but I am slightly biased as I love mine on the Jubilee.........



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> Old Strapcode BoR with finagled endlinks.


That works a real treat....

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> Old Strapcode BoR with finagled endlinks.


That works a real treat....

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Since I missed out on the BoR flash sale, this will have to do
> 
> (Reposts, sorry x2)
> 
> ...


The Nazario Sauro is really something special, spesh on BOR still regret not jumping on that one.......

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Double post virus strikes again, so have a picture:









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> The Holland on the BoR could be a wild card, but I still stick with the Santa Cruz as my favourite for now. The Santa Fe could be interesting but I am slightly biased as I love mine on the Jubilee.........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That one is a beauty!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I'll give you heinous dismemberment:









You know what you can do with your BoR: put it on vintage where it belongs!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

liquidtension said:


> I have this on order. Can't wait to see it real life, slightly different and unisex (I can swap between myself and wife)


That's what we do in the house. Actually, this is my wife's but I borrow it from time to time.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Well, it's Phrydae innit?


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Omegafanboy said:


> The Holland on the BoR could be a wild card, but I still stick with the Santa Cruz as my favourite for now. The Santa Fe could be interesting but I am slightly biased as I love mine on the Jubilee.........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doc must have been eating oreo biscuits when he designed this. I love the color combo, especially the black used on the hands.

#TeamJubilee 

- I have a similar one incoming (solid endlinks) for my Seiko diver that has legendary 19mm lug width... will be a ton of work to reprofile.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> The Nazario Sauro is really something special, spesh on BOR still regret not jumping on that one.......
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


Did we just see the forum's first triple post?

Wow. $hlt just got real...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Doc must have been eating oreo biscuits when he designed this. I love the color combo, especially the black used on the hands.
> 
> #TeamJubilee
> 
> - I have a similar one incoming (solid endlinks) for my Seiko diver that has legendary 19mm lug width... will be a ton of work to reprofile.


That's not how we designed it.

Blame that one on HWA.

He's one of those "not satisfied with perfect" types.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Sounds like somebody needs to get busy cranking out more milkshakes.

And, I think the Skipjack is the winner on the BoR. That is a killer combo.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Sounds like somebody needs to get busy cranking out more milkshakes.


Ya think?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^Must be a Spaniard.

(Sorry, @Pato_Lucas, couldn't resist.)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Following up on the "Mister Support the Troops" influencer story (for those who don't follow me on Facebook)...

After his threat to sue me for slander (libel) didn't get me to take down my Instagram post, and after me proving to him, by pointing out the email domain he used to contact me and the contents of his message both unequivocally proved he was in fact the same guy he claimed not to be, and that he was a lying sack of $hlt, he adopted a bold new strategy.

He started using a different email address to contact me, and asked for my phone number, so he could have someone from Wounded Warrior Project call me, to straighten out the misunderstanding.

I told him I don't give out my phone number, but he could have someone from WWP email me (so I could see the email domain), and that I'd verify the identity of the person I was talking to by confirming it with the WWP.

Haven't heard from him since. No email from anyone at the WWP.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Odin landed. 
I love it! 
Superb CS by John at Watchgauge as always.









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Sooooo doc, you _are_ making more BöR bracelets in the near future, right?

As for the Blöö Näcken, there's literally at least one still available from SW. And a blue Ödin, too. And the Blue Renegades. So Europe is deffo not sold out yet.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Odin landed.
> I love it!


That looks really noice and rugged.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Random but if anyone is looking for shoulderless springbars for the subs.
These are perfect fit and excellent quality

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/352115283631

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Sooooo doc, you _are_ making more BöR bracelets in the near future, right?
> 
> As for the Blöö Näcken, there's literally at least one still available from SW. And a blue Ödin, too. And the Blue Renegades. So Europe is deffo not sold out yet.


We're trying to get more BOR's available.

I feel like I explained this.

Our MOQ on bracelets is 300 pieces, which is way too many. When I order watches, I might order maybe 10-20 extras on the bracelets, just in case people want them, but that's just extras of the standard Oysters, not the BOR. It takes me two or three years to sell 20 spare bracelets. So, I wasn't about to order 300 BOR's.

I was able to get fewer than 300 pieces of the BOR when another brand ordered some for their watches. I asked my OEM to try to piggy-back on the other brand's order, getting us 25 pieces, but with an end-link made to fit the Subs, and with our clasp.

Easy-peasy, right?

They sent me the 25 bracelets, but the links didn't fit. They're maybe 0.5mm-1.0mm too long, such that the spring bars won't go into the lug holes.

So, I asked for the end-links to be re-done.

Instead, they remade all the bracelets, but for some reason, I only got 23. Two of them must have been effed up somehow. Never got an explanation. They just credited my account for the 2 we didn't get.

So...still got 25 here, which don't fit. What to do?

I asked if we could get the bracelet vendor to make us 25 pairs of end-links, like the ones on the 23 BOR's we just got, which fit. I was told we can't. It was a huge favor to get those pieces made, apparently.

I've got Dan "I can fix anything" the watchmaker working on it. He thinks he can get them to fit by boring out the holes in the links. I don't think that will work. I think he's better off trying to grind 0.5mm-1.0mm off the inner surface of the links.

He's got the bracelets. But, they're not a priority. QC'ing the NTH Subs and providing good warranty support are the priority.

If he can get them sorted, we'll have more for sale.

If not, then, we probably won't.

I'm not ordering 300 BOR bracelets. Seriously, I'm not.

And I'm not going to make 300 NTH Subs with a BOR bracelet as standard. No, I'm really not.

And I'm not going to order 300 bracelets and make the BOR vs Oyster an option for customers to choose. GTFO.

Dealing with bracelets, and straps, and parts - that's not really how my business works. I sell watches. WATCHES. Want a $650 watch? Awesome. We sell those.

Want a $10 handset, or a $20 dial, or a $35 strap, or a $150 bracelet? Meh, honestly, with fixed costs and the added time involved in doing one-off sorts of productions and transactions, all that stuff ranges from marginally profitable to I'm losing money just talking about it.

I'm not in the parts business. I'm not in the straps or bracelets business. I mostly got those BOR's just to prove how stupid jubilees are to a few peeps here. Mission accomplished. I proved my point, we made 23 guys happy, and we made a little money. No reason for me to get distracted trying to figure out how to sell another 25 bracelets when I should be thinking about getting to 2500 watches.

And on that note, I'm out.

PEACE!


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Random but if anyone is looking for shoulderless springbars for the subs.
> These are perfect fit and excellent quality
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/352115283631
> ...


he is like the only guy on this planet that lists all specs and has an incredible range. from Australia to Austria .. the things we do for our watches


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Seikogi said:


> he is like the only guy on this planet that lists all specs and has an incredible range. from Australia to Austria .. the things we do for our watches


Lol that's right the one and only.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Another one or two and I will stop









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I mostly got those BOR's just to prove how stupid jubilees are to a few peeps here. Mission accomplished.


Not.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> Not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jubilee is the BOR's less-attractive, less-intelligent cousin.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Just FYI, to all, FWIW...
> 
> We've shifted over 90% of the inventory on the most recent batch of Subs.
> 
> ...


Just cut a deal with a new retailer. Watch for the email announcement next week.

Nacken Vintage Blue, also now sold out.

Down to just 30 pieces in stock at the NTH website. Everything we have, but for two versions, it's all low-single-digits. The average inventory for the 9 versions we have left in stock is 3.33 pieces.

Of the 20-ish versions we produced, it seems like our retailers have sold out of about half of them.

We haven't even gotten everything out of QC yet.

30 days. Within the next 30 days, every single piece we now have will be gone. Maybe sooner.

Don't be the guy thinking about it for 31, and emailing me on day 32.

Where were you, guy?

I don't like that guy.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Blue Odin on a Bonetto Cinturini. This one's not mine, so I didn't want to size the bracelet. Wears really well on the BC.


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

rpm1974 said:


> Not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love how it looks like a BoR but better


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

rscaletta said:


> I love how it looks like a BoR but better


This guy gets it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

rscaletta said:


> I love how it looks like a BoR but better


It's the "I Can't Believe It's Not BoR! Original!" bracelet.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Nothing better than a trip to the pub on a sunny afternoon to enjoy a pint of ale and some chips. This Santa Fe is just perfect.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

rpm1974 said:


> Not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> Jubilee is the BOR's less-attractive, less-intelligent cousin.


Meh, I like them both.

Doc Savage


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

I'm only slightly drunk, but I've got to say: kudos to doc.

I received my barracuda vintage black two days ago and it's just stunning.

Tbh I had my doubts regarding the miyota as I own two watches from Laco with a 8215. The rotor in both watches is very loud - so much, that I rarely wear them since I dislike it.

The 9015 in the bvb is way quieter. I hardly notice it.

That's 'just' the movement, but the watch itself is just beautiful. Way slimmer than everything I'm used to (in regards of divers) and the quality is really great. On top of the gilt dial, the lume ... just everything is great.

Happy to have pulled the trigger after I've missed out on the Carolina and the first run of the bvb.

It is the first one... but probably not the last nth









Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 4X mit Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I like my DevilRay neat.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Thanks to all you south of the border who had done this great globe service for us all. Sláinte to you all, some of us north of the appreciate it.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Erikas and Odin









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)




----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Matching your watch to your apparel is for rookies. Matching your watch to the garden - that's pro.










Bonus: cool hallway lume shot.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

Thank you so much Doc Vail - This watch is beautiful


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

drwindsurf said:


> View attachment 14179039
> 
> 
> View attachment 14179041
> ...


Ugh, with those macro shots, I can see the home-spun enamel on the hands.

Glad you're enjoying it.

I'm thinking I may need to do something else with it if/when I get it back.


----------



## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Another one or two and I will stop
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice! Very nice!


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

drwindsurf said:


> View attachment 14179039
> 
> 
> View attachment 14179041
> ...


Apart from the snowflake hands do I also spy a different bezel? I am sure the standard has BGW9 with a C3 pip but you appear to have C3 with a BGW9 pip.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> Apart from the snowflake hands do I also spy a different bezel? I am sure the standard has BGW9 with a C3 pip but you appear to have C3 with a BGW9 pip.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think you are correct. This is a custom travelling watch Doc made for the members of BSHT here on WUS


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> Apart from the snowflake hands do I also spy a different bezel? I am sure the standard has BGW9 with a C3 pip but you appear to have C3 with a BGW9 pip.





drwindsurf said:


> I think you are correct. This is a custom travelling watch Doc made for the members of BSHT here on WUS


That is the "Santa Flake".

The case is from the v.1 Oberon prototype, which had C3 lume in the bezel.

The dial - before we made the Santa Fe, I asked my factory to send me 3 dial samples with that pattern - one C3, one in "Natural", and one in C5. Respectively, they looked very pale yellow/white, more yellow, and green.

We took some spare Nacken Hands, added black enamel to them, jammed them onto the C3 dial sample, and shoe-horned it all into the prototype Oberon case.

We didn't "make it for the BSHT". I just asked one of my past watchmakers to make it, because I wasn't wearing the Oberon proto, and felt like seeing what a set of blacked-out snowflake hands would look like on a C3 dial.

I think you know why...









I wasn't wearing the Santa Flake much, either, so figured I'd send it on tour with the BSHT, mostly because I knew some of those guys weren't convinced NTH Subs were all that.


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

The SantaFlake looks awesome on leather 









I hope you are having a fantastic long weekend.

Thank you Doc


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

docvail said:


> That is the "Santa Flake".
> 
> I wasn't wearing the Santa Flake much, either, so figured I'd send it on tour with the BSHT, mostly because I knew some of those guys weren't convinced NTH Subs were all that.


- Sorry Chris, I didn't mean to misrepresent the SantaFlake origin story.

I think all doubt has been removed - We love your work Doc 
I am sure this travelling watch has lead to additional sales...NTH is on my list of "to buy" watches (just deciding which one) and I let my son wear the SantaFlake last night and now he is saving to buying one.
Thank you for generously sharing this watch with us


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

Double post


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

drwindsurf said:


> - Sorry Chris, I didn't mean to misrepresent the SantaFlake origin story.
> 
> I think all doubt has been removed - We love your work Doc
> I am sure this travelling watch has lead to additional sales...NTH is on my list of "to buy" watches (just deciding which one) and I let my son wear the SantaFlake last night and now he is saving to buying one.
> Thank you for generously sharing this watch with us


No apologies needed.

I get particular about the details of some stories, like this one, as I've seen how they can lead to discussions I'd rather not have.

I've since stopped using prototypes to make Frankenmods. Just too much of a distraction. Not that we're making many prototypes any more. We've pretty much stopped.

Glad you're enjoying it. Happy to know others have become converts because of it.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just a public service announcement, not just about NTH watches...

Every so often, clean them. I don't mean have them serviced. I mean, freaking clean them. Get the sloughed off skin cells, sweat, dust, grease and grime off the case, crown, and crown tube. If you need a watchmaker to do it, fine, have one do it for you.

Years of wear without cleaning will create a build up of gunk, and that will eventually cause problems, particularly with crown operation.

If you need it done, don't go to the manufacturer and claim there's a mechanical problem. That's not cool.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Loving my Santa Fe on Jubilee.......










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Regarding my post above, about cleaning the watches, and the implicit story behind it, involving getting one back from someone who told us they had a broken crown...

Not every story is from my own experience. I talk to other brand owners. We share stories. We commiserate. Please don't assume I'm always relating a personal tale of woe. Sometimes, it's someone else's woe.

I wouldn't publicly shame someone for an innocent mistake. Most of my public shaming is in self-defense.

That said, I should be more mindful of the convergence of events, and realize I could be inadvertently causing someone embarrassment, without meaning to. 

For instance, if Mike reported a problem with the crown on his Orthos, here, in this thread, recently, it would be horribly bad form for me to mention dirt being the cause of a crown problem a few days later, if said reference made Mike or anyone else think the comment was in reference to Mike's crown. 

I would never do that.

I would, however, occasionally be dumb enough to completely forget that Mike sent us his watch for a legitimate crown problem (which we are going to fix for him), and which wasn't due to dirtiness. I'd be exactly dumb enough to post a "clean your watches" PSA without realizing Mike would understandably think the post was directed at him, even though, it wasn't.

Sorry, Mike, truly. I'd be miffed if someone did that to me. 

For the record, Mike's crown broke, but not because he's a dirty bastard. 

We got a different watch in, from someone who said the crown was broken, when it wasn't. The watch was just filthy, and the years of built-up crud caused problems with crown operation. We had some crown issues with that model, so we told him to send it back for repair. This was my first time having do deal with a situation like this, wherein someone told us something was broken, when in fact it was just disgusting. 

The person the watch belongs to doesn't frequent this thread or forum, as far as I know. If he does, I haven't mentioned him by name, so there should be no implied shame. If by some chance there is, okay, understand that I have a habit of occasionally turning a post-sale support request into a "teachable moment."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Just cut a deal with a new retailer. Watch for the email announcement next week.
> 
> Nacken Vintage Blue, also now sold out.
> 
> ...


96% of the NTH Subs we produced in the most recent batch are now shifted*.

Every comment on social media is "the one I want is sold out."

*Again - I can't see into my retailers' inventory. I'm down to the last 4% of what we made in *MY* inventory, just 26 pieces of the 650 we made.

Early last week, when I asked them, the retailers were sold through half, on average, it seemed. I assume less is left now, based on the social media comments, and what I can see on my retailers' websites, where it looks like half the models are sold out, and I assume they're not sitting on 100% of the ones that are NOT sold out yet.

Whatever we have left - we're probably not making more of that version in the near future. We'll make more of the stuff that sells out first, and hold off on anything that's hanging around more than a week or two from when we start sales. So, if you're looking for something in stock, and wait, don't be surprised if it's sold out later, and we're not talking about more being made.

Three new models coming later this summer. Stay tuned for the reveal soon.

More Skipjack coming in late June/ early July.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Watch Gecko has a video showing different strap options on a Tudor Black Bay 58. With its stylistic similarities to the Barracuda Vintage Black, I thought the video might be of interest here. My surprise favorite was the Kington Racing strap.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Three new models coming later this summer. Stay tuned for the reveal soon.

More Skipjack coming in late June/ early July.[/QUOTE]

Oh my....hints??

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Above post gave me an idea plus I am bored.
Some strap options for the ODIN









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

3WR said:


> Watch Gecko has a video showing different strap options on a Tudor Black Bay 58. With its stylistic similarities to the Barracuda Vintage Black, I thought the video might be of interest here. My surprise favorite was the Kington Racing strap.


Ironic that you posted this. I actually have a blue Highley Douglas on the way from WG for my Barracuda Blue. They call out a brown one as the first option for the BB58 in that clip. I also have a brushed steel deployant clasp from Strapcode waiting with the strap arrives. Pics to follow.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I look forward to Monday to wear NTH.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

3WR said:


> Watch Gecko has a video showing different strap options on a Tudor Black Bay 58. With its stylistic similarities to the Barracuda Vintage Black, I thought the video might be of interest here. My surprise favorite was the Kington Racing strap.


I have the Gecko tropics strap, I have to say it's one of the better ones. My BVB is coming today, I have one horween chromexcel waiting for it too.


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

The BVB looks great on a charcoal grey leather...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Mike will forevermore be known as ODB. 

Who the hell is Mike? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Too much talk....









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)




----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

hwa said:


> Mike will forevermore be known as ODB.
> 
> Who the hell is Mike?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know what you're thinking and it's not me. I only have a Carolina and it's still here.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Jtragic said:


> I know what you're thinking and it's not me. I only have a Carolina and it's still here.


Nah, I knew not you! I was thinking Long Island Mike.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

hwa said:


> Mike will forevermore be known as ODB.
> 
> Who the hell is Mike?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That would be me. The Krusty Olde Pharte.

And it's all good, Doc.


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)




----------



## Relo60 (Jun 14, 2015)

Checking in. Happy Monday:-!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Noice! 

That pearl-ray dial texture never ceases to look great.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Nuclear









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Relo60 said:


> Checking in. Happy Monday:-!
> 
> View attachment 14183057
> View attachment 14183059


Noomoon strap. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## EL_GEEk (Jan 10, 2014)

Love the Odin on a Barton Bands










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Not seeing as much Renegade love as I used to, but now I can finally participate! Here are the 2 new pieces of jewellery I received on Saturday from now Mrs. Dub Rubb. 6 months of it in her possession and I can finally wear my 1st NTH sub. Thanks Chris for putting out such a great product and making our special day that much more special! (for me at least!)









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Awesome.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

More Näcken


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Ratfacedgit said:


> .


very nice custom job! Did you do it yourself?

also, many thanks to you for providing those youtube videos. You saved and guided me through my amphibia movement service adventures


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Interesting note: asking prices for vintage Tudor snowflakes are now at 5-figures. Or, save yourself a bit and get a Nacken


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> very nice custom job! Did you do it yourself?
> 
> also, many thanks to you for providing those youtube videos. You saved and guided me through my amphibia movement service adventures


The engraved Acionna has a story. I'll shorten it.

It's one of the Acionna prototypes. I sent it to @Bradjhomes. I think when/because he'd started some online watchmaking course. I figured he could use it for practice, or whatever.

He ended up sending it to Viljo (@vilts), to be engraved with that Celtic pattern.

Brad wore it a few years, then offered it back to me. I jumped on it like a fat kid jumps on a candy bar. I had it a few years, then, during one of my occasional collection purges, sold it to RatFace, who is local to me, and saw it at our local GTG.

There was a 6-18 month period where it seemed like everyone here was getting a watch custom-engraved, and Viljo was doing a lot of those projects.

He doesn't work cheap, but his work is amazing.

Some samples -

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/engraved-blackionna-proto-2269273.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/engraved-geckota-k3-2652697.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/so-if...ime-bide-vilts-engraving-project-3401138.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/engraved-halios-tropik-b-2461753.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/engraved-aevig-corvid-2502890.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/engraving-sottomarino-933694.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/celtic-invicta-1903274.html


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

#endgame


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

liquidtension said:


> #endgame
> View attachment 14184545


#rookie


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Late into the gilt relief game.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

liquidtension said:


> #endgame
> View attachment 14184545


wow, I really like the print on the packaging. Makes me want to collect all the boxes (and models)


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

That might be impossible. Some models I think are already sold out and unlikely to be re-made (e.g. santa fe).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just seeing the news about the tornadoes in Ohio. Hope any of you guys who live there are safe.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

3WR said:


> Watch Gecko has a video showing different strap options on a Tudor Black Bay 58. With its stylistic similarities to the Barracuda Vintage Black, I thought the video might be of interest here. My surprise favorite was the Kington Racing strap.


It's nice to know that most of Geckota's straps aren't just too long for me. Just about every one of those leather straps is too long for that wrist model, too.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

My NTH trilogy is completed.
Devilray is INSANE. 
It does not look anything like Doxa which is one of the frequent comments on youtube reviews from people that must have never seen a Doxa in person. 
I will say that it is just as well finished if not better in most aspects than the 2 Doxa subs I had. 
I love Doxa but dammit I just bought a Devilray and 2 subs all brand new for less than a used Doxa with their shady customer service.

Devilray is so unique and such a rugged and well executed watch. Every mm of the watch that you examine is well thought of and executed on the luxury watch level.

I love it and I appreciate doc for making this watch and making it available for $700.

Below pics may be useless, if they are I ll remove them. I have no patience to take better ones.










Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Nothing here but us parfait lovers


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

DuckaDiesel said:


> My NTH trilogy is completed.
> Devilray is INSANE.


Nice pair of Doxas you had there.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just sayin.'


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Straposphere mn straps. 
Perfect length for my 7 inch wrist and great deal at 3 for $60. Also got some good quality spring bars









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

both are 40mm, but dolphin looks smaller here. Lighter colors is supposed to look "bigger".. trickery of camera or smart designing?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> My NTH trilogy is completed.
> Devilray is INSANE.
> It does not look anything like Doxa which is one of the frequent comments on youtube reviews from people that must have never seen a Doxa in person.
> I will say that it is just as well finished if not better in most aspects than the 2 Doxa subs I had.
> ...


The pics aren't useless.

That dial is amazing.

Sometimes, it's better not to look at things too closely.

I'm always happy to know others are happy with my team's work. The DevilRay in particular is a source of personal pride. The case Rusty designed for the NTH Subs is a wonder, as many of you know, but because it was inspired by vintage Rolex, it's often dismissed as "just an homage", whereas I think the uniqueness of the DevilRay design is undeniable.

The black may be my personal favorite of the bunch. The white is no slouch, either though. Plus, the Deep6...yeah, they're all pretty sweet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> both are 40mm, but dolphin looks smaller here. Lighter colors is supposed to look "bigger".. trickery of camera or smart designing?
> View attachment 14186645


Camera trickery - the black is closer to the lens. Mobile phone cameras have very shallow depths, so the fish-eye effect is amplified (based on what I've read).

Equalized, the black may look bigger because black dial + black bezel, versus white(ish) dial + silver bezel, where the silver blends in more with the surrounding steel of case and bracelet.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The pics aren't useless.
> 
> That dial is amazing.
> 
> ...


I do get a sense that devilray was sort of a proof of concept for you to just show off what you can do and shut everyone up, if that makes sense. I love the subs and feel that I have a perfect combo with Nazario and Odin and am now hoping for some gilt version to see the appeal in person. 
The devilray has the x factor and its a beauty but you do have to like the style. 
At this point in this hobby/obsession/crack, i am fine with just having NTH in my collection. I am tired of getting bad QC pieces, spending 2-3k (few ocassions even more) on a watch then getting dissapointed because I dont get it, having uncomfortable watch, bad or no customer service...
I have found my sweet spot with NTH and looking back to the 60+ watches that went through my hands, they are the only ones that I truly clicked with. I dont have honeymoon periods, I either love or hate the watch after an hour lol.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> Camera trickery - the black is closer to the lens. Mobile phone cameras have very shallow depths, so the fish-eye effect is amplified (based on what I've read).
> 
> Equalized, the black may look bigger because black dial + black bezel, versus white(ish) dial + silver bezel, where the silver blends in more with the surrounding steel of case and bracelet.


kinda make sense hahah dolphin is one of a kind and for a unisex watch I think you have nailed it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> I do get a sense that devilray was sort of a proof of concept for you to just show off what you can do and shut everyone up, if that makes sense.


Yes, it was, to some extent, us showing off.

We get tired of the online hate. We don't toot our own horn as much as we could, about some things we've done, that most people don't even notice or talk about. Sometimes we feel like making a "f**k off" statement. The DevilRay was it.

Plus, I wanted something like a Doxa for myself, there was no way I'd shell out $2k for one, and figured we could make something better for 1/3 the cost.

Boom.



DuckaDiesel said:


> I love the subs and feel that I have a perfect combo with Nazario and Odin and am now hoping for some gilt version to see the appeal in person.


More Barracuda Vintage Black already in production. Coming soon.

Good news - if you don't like it, you might be able to sell it for more than you paid. The resale prices on NTH Subs has been pretty shocking lately, in a good way.



DuckaDiesel said:


> The devilray has the x factor and its a beauty but you do have to like the style.


True. I notice I don't wear my DR's as much as the Subs. I think I need to try them on some straps. I love the DR design, but it's a tank on the bracelet.



DuckaDiesel said:


> At this point in this hobby/obsession/crack, i am fine with just having NTH in my collection. I am tired of getting bad QC pieces, spending 2-3k (few ocassions even more) on a watch then getting dissapointed because I dont get it, having uncomfortable watch, bad or no customer service...
> I have found my sweet spot with NTH and looking back to the 60+ watches that went through my hands, they are the only ones that I truly clicked with. I dont have honeymoon periods, I either love or hate the watch after an hour lol.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


I gotta tell you, that sort of brand dedication, while heartwarming on one level, scares me on another.

Don't take this the wrong way - I've had maybe two dozen "problem customers" since starting the business, and more than a few of them were one-time superfans. Apparently it really is a thin line between love and hate.

There are a lot of great watches out there. I'm looking forward to the release of the Aevig Huldra, which I hope is a success, and people who get them love them. I'm a genuine fan of a lot of what some of my peers are doing.

I'm happy to have your business, but would still encourage you not to limit your horizons to NTH, and only NTH. Lots of great work being done by others.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Plus, I wanted something like a Doxa for myself, there was no way I'd shell out $2k for one, and figured we could make something better for 1/3 the cost.
> 
> Boom.
> 
> ...


My collection is small, you will not see me buying 10 versions of subs thats for sure.
I am ok with 3-5 pieces at most at any given time, thats what I meant. 
I 100% agree that Devilray trumps Doxa. 
I am going to buy a teal Huldra for sure, I have been waiting on them to release version two for a while. 
Also need to try Nodus at some point but do not like their dial layout on any model thus far.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Blurracuda on a Geckota Highley Douglas with a Strapcode brushed stainless deployant clasp.

Jury's still out on this combo. Thoughts?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> View attachment 14186863
> 
> 
> Blurracuda on a Geckota Highley Douglas with a Strapcode brushed stainless deployant clasp.
> ...


Bingo! Looks really handsome!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> View attachment 14186863
> 
> 
> Blurracuda on a Geckota Highley Douglas with a Strapcode brushed stainless deployant clasp.
> ...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The black may be my personal favorite of the bunch. The white is no slouch, either though. Plus, the Deep6...yeah, they're all pretty sweet.


Yeah, thing is, they are out of stock everywhere.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah, thing is, they are out of stock everywhere.


I just sent two pieces to Serious Watches in the Netherlands - the black no-date, and an orange no-date.

There's one orange no-date left on my site.

A Time To Watch in Canada just had the black, turquoise and orange with-date versions, last month.

There's a white no-date available from the Watchdrobe in Hong Kong.

Watch Wonderland still has stock on their "DevilFox" version.

So....not quite out of stock everywhere.

We made 350, including all the LE versions. Considering we first delivered them a year ago, that there are still a dozen pieces left anywhere is sort of embarrassing. If we'd distributed them more strategically, they'd have been gone long ago.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> More Barracuda Vintage Black already in production. Coming soon.
> 
> Good news - if you don't like it, you might be able to sell it for more than you paid. The resale prices on NTH Subs has been pretty shocking lately, in a good way.


From what I see on used market, the gilt dial of Vintage Barracuda is the biggest hit, maybe even more successful than the Blue Nacken of TGV! *cough* BSHT *cough*


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Forever8895 said:


> From what I see on used market, the gilt dial of Vintage Barracuda is the biggest hit, maybe even more successful than the Blue Nacken of TGV! *cough* BSHT *cough*


both has beauty of it's own. the gilt of barracuda and the clean well executed square indices and beautiful shade of blue of the nacken


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I was trying to find pictures of nacken with marine national straps, does anyone have some?

-- edit -- it's ok I found some in the thread.. somewhere..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Interesting note: asking prices for vintage Tudor snowflakes are now at 5-figures. Or, save yourself a bit and get a Nacken
> 
> View attachment 14183685


The vintage market may be getting out of hand. It feels like prices are being bid up because people see the watches as investments, rather than buying for their own enjoyment. That's how bubbles get fueled.

Don't know if it's in popular use yet, but I recently heard the term "the Hodinkee effect" to describe how prices on some vintage models, if not all vintage watches, are being propelled by the popularity of Hodinkee, and some other blogs putting a spotlight on vintage pieces.

I don't know enough about how the markets for vintage collectibles operate for me to speculate about the future trend. But I wonder, for things like cars and watches, which require some ongoing maintenance, how that will affect their prices in the future, as parts and the people with the skills to do the work become harder to find.

It also seems to me that the trend starts out focused on the very old and/or the very rare, but that leads to rampant speculation on the less old and less rare.

I get the reasoning for bidding up prices on a rare and iconic Tudor, or something from a similarly iconic brand, but there are beat-to-hell watches from no-name brands being bid up to crazy levels, and it just seems like dumb money chasing what people hope will be the next big thing, or just another boat being lifted on a rising tide.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

liquidtension said:


> I was trying to find pictures of nacken with marine national straps, does anyone have some?
> 
> -- edit -- it's ok I found some in the thread.. somewhere..


It looks even better on blue nacken









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I took my Orthos to Geneva for a few days. This watch is awesome.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> More Barracuda Vintage Black already in production. Coming soon.


Doc,

Any chance of the Amphion reappearing? Especially the Dark Gilt and the Modern. Unfortunately for me, NTH wasn't on my radar when you made those... and I love them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



gsurf said:


> Doc,
> 
> Any chance of the Amphion reappearing? Especially the Dark Gilt and the Modern. Unfortunately for me, NTH wasn't on my radar when you made those... and I love them.


Maybe.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Like a glove









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

I’m just a dude jones’n for one of those orthos commanders. Wish I would have know about you guys when that went down. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> It also seems to me that the trend starts out focused on the very old and/or the very rare, but that leads to rampant speculation on the less old and less rare.
> 
> I get the reasoning for bidding up prices on a rare and iconic Tudor, or something from a similarly iconic brand, but there are beat-to-hell watches from no-name brands being bid up to crazy levels, and it just seems like dumb money chasing what people hope will be the next big thing, or just another boat being lifted on a rising tide.


It feels like a constant game of cat and mouse between people looking for value and people looking for investment.

When investors made vintage Rolex expensive, people looking for value moved to vintage Omega. Now investors have made them expensive too, they've moved to Seiko.

People search for the cheap and obscure, others follow and drive the price up, and on and on it goes. While from the outside it looks a lot like fashion, I think for many it's just desperation as they're priced out of everything they want.

How long until we see vintage Vostok Amphibias going for $1000?


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

No, the real question is how long before we see vintage NTHs going for $1000?


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> No, the real question is how long before we see vintage NTHs going for $1000?


Ooh! I have the Ricardo in both colors - those who know will pay dearly for them, right?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

CMFord said:


> Ooh! I have the Ricardo in both colors - those who know will pay dearly for them, right?


And those that Really know will.......run for the Hills!
__


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

CMFord said:


> Ooh! I have the Ricardo in both colors - those who know will pay dearly for them, right?


That reminds me, it's about time for someone to ask Doc again if he'll make more Ricardos!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> That reminds me, it's about time for someone to ask Doc again if he'll make more Ricardos!


Do. He just _loves_ that.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Tanjecterly said:


> No, the real question is how long before we see vintage NTHs going for $1000?


If it's in Canadian dollars... Now! Dammit..

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)




----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Were you lured in by his violin play?

Coming to think of it, what was the inspiration of the names given to the models? Näcken is a cool name.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I mean, a new Riccardo would be neat, but maybe it should be an NTH Riccardo with auto chrono movement and be real nice and thin, like, say, 12mm or so? Now THAT would be neat. 

P.S. Oh hi doc.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

I only brought 2 watches on my week long honeymoon, and the all arounder I chose was my wedding gift. The renegade. I am really digging this watch right now and even have a couple straps to play around with. Here are pics from day 1. Loving that dial color change and am hesitant to swap out the bracelet.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> The vintage market may be getting out of hand. It feels like prices are being bid up because people see the watches as investments, rather than buying for their own enjoyment. That's how bubbles get fueled.
> 
> Don't know if it's in popular use yet, but I recently heard the term "the Hodinkee effect" to describe how prices on some vintage models, if not all vintage watches, are being propelled by the popularity of Hodinkee, and some other blogs putting a spotlight on vintage pieces.
> 
> ...


I'm happy to let other folks take the hit, regardless. Part of the appeal of vintage cars is that you literally can't make them like that anymore. There are all kinds of regulations for what can go where and so Ferrari couldn't make an exact modern replica of a Daytona GTB/4 even if they wanted to, which they don't. There are certain rare exceptions, like then Jag recently decided to finish off what was supposed to be a run of 100 D-type cars in the mid 1950s, but only made 75. For the most part though, that's how it works.

With a watch on the other hand you're getting the history, sure, but you're also getting useless Tritium lume, a dive watch that you'd have to be crazy to actually dive with, and a bracelet too cheap feeling for a Seiko Turtle. I just have trouble seeing the appeal of a genuine vintage piece for gobs of money when you can get that same look with an easily serviceable or replaceable movement, super luminova, and sapphire glass.

You can't roar down the PCH in your $10K Tudor Snowflake pretending it's the 1970s. I love watches as much as the next guy, but it's a watch.


----------



## Birchgrove (Nov 12, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I just got this, and man! Where have you been all my life you sweet, sweet fantastic watch!?









Oh and also, im from Sweden and Näcken is a Swedish word. Perhaps I should get one of those too


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> Were you lured in by his violin play?
> 
> Coming to think of it, what was the inspiration of the names given to the models? Näcken is a cool name.


Submarine inspired names.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Birchgrove said:


> I just got this, and man! Where have you been all my life you sweet, sweet fantastic watch!?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


congrats! I have one that I acquired recently too! Yup, since you're from Sweden, the Näcken is based on the forklore yes?


----------



## Birchgrove (Nov 12, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



liquidtension said:


> congrats! I have one that I acquired recently too! Yup, since you're from Sweden, the Näcken is based on the forklore yes?
> 
> View attachment 14190141


Thank you, and congrats to you too.
And yes, Näcken is a water spirit from Scandinavian folklore. So it's a very suitable name for a diver 

Skickat från min SM-G975F via Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Birchgrove said:


> Thank you, and congrats to you too.
> And yes, Näcken is a water spirit from Scandinavian folklore. So it's a very suitable name for a diver
> 
> Skickat från min SM-G975F via Tapatalk


Very nice! I love the name. Wear in good health my friend!


----------



## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

Will the Santa Cruz (blue bezel/white dial) be available again with no date?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

City74 said:


> Will the Santa Cruz (blue bezel/white dial) be available again with no date?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


SeriousWatches has it in stock.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Love this watch.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm not making a chrono any time soon. Y'all can stop with the subtle-as-a-kick-to-the-groin hints. If I seem prickly about this sort of thing, it's because it's a prickly topic for someone in my position. Let me figure out the products we'll make, please. If I need help, I'll ask.

All the *SUBS* are named for various classes of *submarines* used by navies throughout the world. Any incidental relationship to mythical creatures is only by way of the submarines being named after them. 

If you're named Chris, and you name your kid Chris, he's named after you, not after the biblical figure, or the kid's grandfather, if that guy was also Chris.

We can argue the original derivation of a name, if you want, but it won't change the fact that we get all the NTH Subs' names from submarines, without looking into where those vessels get their names. I didn't know anything about the mythical creature when we called it the Näcken. I just knew it was a submarine.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

City74 said:


> Will the Santa Cruz (blue bezel/white dial) be available again with no date?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's available right now, with no date.

I don't think all our retailers are sold out of them. If they are, we'll make more.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Birchgrove said:


> Thank you, and congrats to you too.
> And yes, Näcken is a water spirit from Scandinavian folklore. So it's a very suitable name for a diver
> 
> Skickat från min SM-G975F via Tapatalk


I am happy that Chris went with Näcken. Sounds infinitely better than "Nixe" - the german word.

maybe I'll engrave some art on the caseback on mine hahah


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I'm not making a chrono any time soon. Y'all can stop with the subtle-as-a-kick-to-the-groin hints. If I seem prickly about this sort of thing, it's because it's a prickly topic for someone in my position. Let me figure out the products we'll make, please. If I need help, I'll ask.


So you're saying the new GMT model will be along pretty quick?


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> All the *SUBS* are named for various classes of *submarines* used by navies throughout the world. Any incidental relationship to mythical creatures is only by way of the submarines being named after them.


There is a chance for @yankeexpress to get his yankee class released one day


----------



## Birchgrove (Nov 12, 2011)

docvail said:


> I'm not making a chrono any time soon. Y'all can stop with the subtle-as-a-kick-to-the-groin hints. If I seem prickly about this sort of thing, it's because it's a prickly topic for someone in my position. Let me figure out the products we'll make, please. If I need help, I'll ask.
> 
> All the *SUBS* are named for various classes of *submarines* used by navies throughout the world. Any incidental relationship to mythical creatures is only by way of the submarines being named after them.
> 
> ...


Submarine or water spirit doesn't matter to me, it's a cool name anyways. 
And I think that HMS Näcken is named after the entity. 
All this makes it even cooler in my eyes, being swedish and all. 
An american brand names their watch after a Swedish submarine, I think I have to own this watch 

Skickat från min SM-G975F via Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> So you're saying the new GMT model will be along pretty quick?


LOL 

Doc Savage


----------



## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> SeriousWatches has it in stock.


Only problem there is that they are a bit more then buying direct


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Birchgrove said:


> Submarine or water spirit doesn't matter to me, it's a cool name anyways.
> And I think that HMS Näcken is named after the entity.
> All this makes it even cooler in my eyes, being swedish and all.
> An american brand names their watch after a Swedish submarine, I think I have to own this watch
> ...


*True story* - it was a Scandinavian friend who suggested the name. I'm fairly certain he knew of the mythological naked murderer ghost fiddler.

He didn't mention it.

He just said it was a submarine.

A lot of my friends are a-holes.



City74 said:


> Only problem there is that they are a bit more then buying direct


They'll remove the VAT if you're outside the USA, and they ship free worldwide. It shouldn't cost you more.

There's also our retailer in the UK, and in Hong Kong.

Singapore had 2, but I don't see them on the website. I wouldn't assume that means they don't still have them. Might be worth an email.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just FYI - 

I'm down to just 20 pieces left of the Subs.

They're going fast. 

I'm serious. Don't screw around. Get the one you want before they're sold out again.


----------



## Birchgrove (Nov 12, 2011)

docvail said:


> *True story* - it was a Scandinavian friend who suggested the name. I'm fairly certain he knew of the mythological naked murderer ghost fiddler.
> 
> He didn't mention it.
> 
> ...


Haha, mythological naked murderer ghost fiddler!

Skickat från min SM-G975F via Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Just FYI -
> 
> I'm down to just 20 pieces left of the Subs.
> 
> ...


This warms my cockles and makes my rooster chubby.

Can't wait to see what ya got cocking up your sleeve next....

Hmmm What ever is on my mind?

I shant edit...


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'm not making a chrono any time soon. Y'all can stop with the subtle-as-a-kick-to-the-groin hints. If I seem prickly about this sort of thing, it's because it's a prickly topic for someone in my position. Let me figure out the products we'll make, please. If I need help, I'll ask.
> 
> All the *SUBS* are named for various classes of *submarines* used by navies throughout the world. Any incidental relationship to mythical creatures is only by way of the submarines being named after them.
> 
> ...


It's because it rhymes with snackin'. Just admit it.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> ...A lot of my friends are a-holes...


LOL as a fellow Army vet, I can totally relate. A-holes who would do anything for you in a time of need. The best kind of friends to have.

Doc Savage


----------



## mattm0691 (Sep 19, 2016)

For everyone with a BVB (or Doc); I have a quick question. is the underlying gold that you can see in the surrounds to the lume, NTH logo, etc. supposed to have a sort of brushed appearance? I thought that I had read elsewhere that that was something that happened with the Carolina but on the BVB it was all supposed to look polished. Thanks for any answers anyone may have!


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

docvail said:


> Just FYI -
> 
> I'm down to just 20 pieces left of the Subs.
> 
> ...


Done. Looks like I got the last black Odin. Stoked!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mattm0691 said:


> For everyone with a BVB (or Doc); I have a quick question. is the underlying gold that you can see in the surrounds to the lume, NTH logo, etc. supposed to have a sort of brushed appearance? I thought that I had read elsewhere that that was something that happened with the Carolina but on the BVB it was all supposed to look polished. Thanks for any answers anyone may have!


Looks polished to me!

Edit: it looks polished but it does has some textures. See pic

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Seikogi said:


> I am happy that Chris went with Näcken. Sounds infinitely better than "Nixe" - the german word.
> 
> maybe I'll engrave some art on the caseback on mine hahah


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> All the *SUBS* are named for various classes of *submarines* used by navies throughout the world.


Google just told me that my Barracuda is named after a French submarine. Sad trombone.









It's like a nuclear-powered baguette. I like how they list the requirement to integrate US weapon systems as a disadvantage. "Stupid Yankee torpedoes. C'est la Merde!"

(For our Francais WUS brethren, I only kid. You guys are still family.)

In other news though, this combo is growing on me:









Word of caution for anyone considering the Strapcode deployant clasp. It's a fine clasp (as every product I've bought from SC has been), but one of the inside edges is a little sharp with pointy corners. Five minutes of light circles with a whetstone fixed that. I'd never have attempted that if it was an outside surface, but since this isn't a visible surface while on the wrist, I went for it. Turned out pretty well, and much more comfortable.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gsurf said:


> Done. Looks like I got the last black Odin. Stoked!


Last one from my store, yes.

Thanks!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Last one from my store, yes.
> 
> Thanks!


PS - it's in my office. I'll try to get it into the mail for you tomorrow. The weather here the last few days has alternated between torrential rain, and torrential rain, but with tornadoes.


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

This thing is a strap monster


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



gsurf said:


> Doc,
> 
> Any chance of the Amphion reappearing? Especially the Dark Gilt and the Modern. Unfortunately for me, NTH wasn't on my radar when you made those... and I love them.





docvail said:


> Maybe.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Alright, I'll tease this one, a little.

Yes, the Amphion will re-appear.

There's a new version of the Amphion in production now. It should be ready by late summer. We'll reveal it soon, along with two new versions of the Subs.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Amphion.. oo early christmas present... thre's something i have been hoping that will happen... a vintage domed sapphire..


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Alright, I'll tease this one, a little.
> 
> Yes, the Amphion will re-appear.
> 
> There's a new version of the Amphion in production now. It should be ready by late summer. We'll reveal it soon, along with two new versions of the Subs.


Hoping its guilty like barracuda. Would really like to see the gilt relief in person

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

liquidtension said:


> Amphion.. oo early christmas present... thre's something i have been hoping that will happen... a vintage domed sapphire..


Vintage domed sapphire? Make that plexi for the vintage vibe. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

hwa said:


> liquidtension said:
> 
> 
> > Amphion.. oo early christmas present... thre's something i have been hoping that will happen... a vintage domed sapphire..
> ...


Yes pls! Where did u get that from!?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> Amphion.. oo early christmas present... thre's something i have been hoping that will happen... a vintage domed sapphire..


No.



DuckaDiesel said:


> Hoping its guilty like barracuda. Would really like to see the gilt relief in person


It isn't.



hwa said:


> Vintage domed sapphire? Make that plexi for the vintage vibe.


NO!



liquidtension said:


> Yes pls! Where did u get that from!?


NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dubble post.

Random pic.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Dubble post.
> 
> Random pic.
> 
> View attachment 14193215


Im over in Center City, big fella, if you want to repo the set










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

TGIF









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

TGIF indeed.

TGIPF........









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Im over in Center City, big fella, if you want to repo the set
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let's cut out the middle man and just dispose of them where you are...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Nah, c'mon over, I'll help you stick 'em in the spot that all Christophers use to hide watches.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

hwa said:


> Nah, c'mon over, I'll help you stick 'em in the spot that all Christophers use to hide watches.


The BOR bracelet will be painful to hide... there is a reason Rolex uses jubilee bracelets.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> NO!
> 
> NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!


YEESSSSSS!!!!!


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

hwa said:


> Vintage domed sapphire? Make that plexi for the vintage vibe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HAHAH you trying to get Doc Banned?


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Alright, I'll tease this one, a little.
> 
> Yes, the Amphion will re-appear.
> 
> There's a new version of the Amphion in production now. It should be ready by late summer. We'll reveal it soon, along with two new versions of the Subs.


Now you tell me... Well, I've just blown my watch budget for the next year or two... no worries. 

Thanks for the reply and for letting me know Odin is on it's way (just got the shipping notice)- have a great weekend.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Which one of you drunk Brits is selling an Odin for $850USD + shipping on Ebay, hm?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm. That's pretty... optimistic. Especially when there's still stock floating around.

Anyway. Got the v2 NTHSC w/ date in today. I like the new date placement, imo an improvement over v1. Nice stepped edge on the date aperture too, makes it look "finished" without needing any dumb color outlines.

One thing, after having had a bunch of subs:

The sub models should all have names with "r" and/or "o" in them, because of the little touches to those letters' font. The swoosh on the 'r' in particular is great.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

JakeJD said:


> Which one of you drunk Brits is selling an Odin for $850USD + shipping on Ebay, hm?


Lmao I saw that

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

And today's strap choice - Cincy Strap Co seatbelt nato


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

'still' enjoying my baraccuda vintage black.

I know doc thinks it's best in the oyster bracelet, but I'm trying different strap options - tbh partly because I'm too aware of the bracelet while wearing it and trying to avoid scratches like hell 

So far: black nato with gold hardware is my go to. I want to try a black nato with a red stripe (still on the hunt ...) Some leather straps work too. MN straps like Erikas are way too 'too-watch' for the bvb in my opinion.

Despite that: great watch, I'm loving it


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Happy Friday, folks.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Poerger said:


> 'still' enjoying my baraccuda vintage black.
> 
> I know doc thinks it's best in the oyster bracelet, but I'm trying different strap options - tbh partly because I'm too aware of the bracelet while wearing it and trying to avoid scratches like hell
> 
> ...


Blue shark nato. I just got one for the same reason

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## green_pea (May 10, 2016)

rpm1974 said:


> Happy Friday, folks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


interesting strap, what type is it?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

green_pea said:


> interesting strap, what type is it?


Cork

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> Which one of you drunk Brits is selling an Odin for $850USD + shipping on Ebay, hm?


Seriously, I *LOVE* drunk Brits, and that sort of brilliance is exactly why.



X2-Elijah said:


> Hmm. That's pretty... optimistic. Especially when there's still stock floating around.
> 
> Anyway. Got the v2 NTHSC w/ date in today. I like the new date placement, imo an improvement over v1. Nice stepped edge on the date aperture too, makes it look "finished" without needing any dumb color outlines.
> 
> ...


HEY! I like the dumb color outlines!

Aaron chose the font.

Aaron knows his fonts.

And kerning. He *LOVES* to talk about kerning. Can't get him to shut up about kerning.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Heads up...

We're raising prices $25 across the board on all NTH Subs, starting June 14th. 

Movement costs are going up, we're seeing increases in shipping and customs costs, and we can't keep up with demand, so...price increase.

Haters can bite me.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

$25 isn’t an increase. It’s couch cushions. Make it $50. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

LOL


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Mikefable said:


> Blue *sharknado*. I just got one for the same reason
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fixed that for ya. Because someone had to:


----------



## Dalen (Dec 12, 2016)

docvail said:


> Heads up...
> 
> We're raising prices $25 across the board on all NTH Subs, starting June 14th.
> 
> ...


Haters gonna hate. I just wanna see that 42mm sub!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Pfft. $25 dollars? That's the cost of a pedicure that my wife can do without.


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

rpm1974 said:


> Happy Friday, folks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


May I ask what exactly were you doing when you took this wrist shot???


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Slant said:


> May I ask what exactly were you doing when you took this wrist shot???


We'd all prefer you didn't.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Slant said:


> May I ask what exactly were you doing when you took this wrist shot???


A simple "1" or "2" will suffice.

I've heard of auto-admiring. What do we call this? &#55357;&#56834;


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Slant said:


> May I ask what exactly were you doing when you took this wrist shot???


You may ask.

I may not answer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to comment. Lol


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

What's the in the reflection of the case? Jk

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



rpm1974 said:


> Happy Friday, folks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is like those selfies people take in the bathroom with a turd in the toilet bowl in the background.

Doc Savage


----------



## green_pea (May 10, 2016)

Slant said:


> May I ask what exactly were you doing when you took this wrist shot???


bahahahaha, just noticed


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

... How in the heck did you think it was a good idea to take a wristshot while squatting on the loo? 
Like, what kind of thought process leads to that thought?


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Well, within one week of ownership I have been putting the renegade through its paces. Traveled to another country, dipped in both a pool and the ocean and went on an off-road Mexican excursion in a Polaris today. Still running like a champ and looking great while doing so. Really loving this watch right now.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> ... How in the heck did you think it was a good idea to take a wristshot while squatting on the loo?
> Like, what kind of thought process leads to that thought?


Coulda been a visit to the proctologists?

"Hang on doc, the light's just right in here, really capturing the colour on the bezel."

😆


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The only thing left is for someone to post a wristshot from their bdsm dungeon with tasteful background array of implements...


----------



## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

I’ll have to say that an NTH sub is the only micro I’d consider spending $650 or so on. The more I look the more I like. I have resigned myself to getting one just don’t know which. It will be the unicorn micro of the my collection so gotta be special. I’ll just make sure I buy before June 14th &#55357;&#56860;


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> The only thing left is for someone to post a wristshot from their bdsm dungeon with tasteful background array of implements...


You go first.......


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

After much deliberation...this is now mine...








...and I'm not even close to capturing the true aesthetics of the dial.

As to the method of attachment to me:










Thanks doc, hopefully you don't get tired of hearing this - absolutely awesome piece, with incredibly nuanced design. I love it, nearly fainted from the new watch rush when I first put it on!

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

rpm1974 said:


> Happy Friday, folks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've taken stall selfies too.

Nothing like that awkward feeling when you take a stall selfie only to realize you left the shutter click sound on.

Well, maybe not as awkward for me ... more so for the people in the other stalls I guess.

Rusty are you a true 33 or a Seinfeld 33?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

illumidata said:


> Thanks doc, hopefully you don't get tired of hearing this - absolutely awesome piece, with incredibly nuanced design. I love it, nearly fainted from the new watch rush when I first put it on!


Yeah...it really gets old, having people tell you how awesome something you made is.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Jtragic said:


> Rusty are you a true 33 or a Seinfeld 33?


Well, my IWB still fits comfortably, so I'd say a true 33. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> $25 isn't an increase. It's couch cushions. Make it $50.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For real.

I was thinking I could justify charging $700 for the gilt-dial Barracudas and Nacken Modern Blue, just based on demand.

The production cost on the BVB isn't dramatically higher than the other models we've been selling for $650, but we've caught more defects with them, which means they end up costing more, when we have to fix them before we can ship them.

Now that our production volume is going up, we're seeing more delays, and spending more time in QC. It seems like every time our supplier has to increase capacity, we go through a "learning curve" period, where we catch more defects, and they cost us more.

So much for "economies of scale".

When we got the Barracuda Browns, all the bezel inserts were the wrong plating color. They used the darker, more reddish brown from the Holland. We had to wait while they remade all the bezel inserts, which we just got.

The watches are already here. It didn't make sense to send them back to be re-assembled, so we have to re-assemble them here.

But, it turns out that our supplier improved the adhesive they've been using to install the inserts. The inserts are almost impossible to get out, now.

We used to be able to pry them out without doing any dis-assembly of the case. Now, Dan has to completely disassemble the watch, and pop the crystal out to get to the insert from the underside. Insert swaps used to be a 5-10 minute process. Now it takes an hour. That hour of Dan's time is a huge cost increase.

Plus, now we have to re-pressure-test each one, after he gets the crystal back in. I had to buy a pressure tester for him earlier this week. The ones you get on Amazon or Ali Express for $100-$200 can only test to 6 ATM. The good ones that test to higher WR ratings cost thousands.

These are all things that we can't predict when we get the cost figures from the factory, and set pricing. If I knew then what I know now, I'd have raised prices in January, or bumped them all $50 back in November, when we just raised them $25.

Using the 90S5 is going to add a little cost. The new printing on the box sleeves adds a little cost. The delays cost us time, and time is money.

I had to order 2,000 movements recently, to make sure we have what we need for the rest of this year and into early next, because movement costs and lead times are going up. I suspect the defect rate will rise, too, which means higher costs for replacements.

Shipping costs are up.

The Trump tariffs don't seem to be having any effect on the customs costs for importing the watches, from what I can see, but I think the customs costs are going up on the boxes.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> The Trump tariffs don't seem to be having any effect on the customs costs for importing the watches, from what I can see, but I think the customs costs are going up on the boxes.


My supplier is getting hit with a 25% tariff on display boxes.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Coriolanus said:


> Fixed that for ya. Because someone had to:
> 
> View attachment 14194973


This is magic. Someone get blushark on the phone with a marketing strategy lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

On the upside, looks like (based on my gen.2 SC) the bezel insert stamping profile (for the SC-style insert, with 15 minute marks) has fixed the "5-0" alignment thing; now the numbers (far as I can see) are properly levelled. I could be wrong, but it looks like the crystal has a slight curve-bevelled edge now (~1mm bevel radius) - if true, then it lines up *really well* with the dial, hiding the sidewall (rehaut?) a bit. Nice to see that the subs are getting these small tweaks and fixes as time goes on.

At this point, idk what else is left to "fix" on the subs... outside of maintaining QC, they basically have everything they need to have. Brushing is good, mirror polish on the case is proper "mirror-like", crown action has been consistently great on all the subs I've had (... 7, by now? Smth like that), lume's consistently great.. Sizing is good, styling is good (and varied enough for all folks)... I still don't know which sub is the best style-wise, or which is the most versatile, but all in all, there ain't no other micro I'd rather buy a watch from.


----------



## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

illumidata said:


> After much deliberation...this is now mine...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that a rubber b strap on the barracuda? How's the fit? Easy to install?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Boom, y'all.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

We did re-do the tooling for the bezel inserts, as of the November deliveries. The numbers are better aligned now.

I don't think we've had a change in the crystal, but it's possible we did and I don't know it. The change in bezel adhesive wasn't something we asked for. They just did it. We didn't realize it until Dan couldn't get the inserts out.

We asked them to stop stamping arrows on the inside of the links. We got the bracelet vendor to change their QC on the screws, so we don't have any more problems with them getting stuck. We talked to the clasp vendor about the tolerances on the safety catch, as the first round had some slop in them.

I told Dan to cut the accuracy spec on the Miyota in half, and regulate any which are outside that range when he's doing QC. Instead of -10/+30, we're looking for -5/+15 now. We haven't had any more accuracy complaints since then.

All the little things add up. It's easy to say yes to a $1.60 increase per unit on the box printing, or to pay a few dollars more per dial, and not think about it. But when you do that ten times, for ten little things, and you start adding up the extra time and cost of all the little quality improvements, you feel it, and I have to raise the price to compensate.

I know I sound like a broken record, but it takes all my restraint not to blast guys online when I see comments running down microbrands, as if we're all the same, and all just playing phone-a-factory. 


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

qiao.feng said:


> Is that a rubber b strap on the barracuda? How's the fit? Easy to install?


It's a Meyhofer- fit is perfect, install is easy, it's supple and it smells good.

There's a blue accent and plain version as well (and at least 2 other more expensive curved end models).

https://www.watch-band-center.com/watchstrap-p31454h254s1470-Watch-strap-Redding-.html

watch addict in recovery


----------



## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

illumidata said:


> It's a Meyhofer- fit is perfect, install is easy, it's supple and it smells good.
> 
> There's a blue accent and plain version as well (and at least 2 other more expensive curved end models).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! Will check it out


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> For real.
> 
> I was thinking I could justify charging $700 for the gilt-dial Barracudas and Nacken Modern Blue, just based on demand.
> 
> ...


So this raises the question, what protection do you have from your suppliers when they send you the wrong stuff? Wrong color bezel inserts are costing you time and money. They should take them all back, fix them, test them and return them to you.

Ive not dealt with buying stuff in China, but elsewhere in the world, if the supplier doesn't deliver the goods to spec, he doesn't get paid until he fixes it.

Maybe in the watch world you have to take it or leave it?


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> We did re-do the tooling for the bezel inserts, as of the November deliveries. The numbers are better aligned now.
> 
> I don't think we've had a change in the crystal, but it's possible we did and I don't know it. The change in bezel adhesive wasn't something we asked for. They just did it. We didn't realize it until Dan couldn't get the inserts out.
> 
> ...


So you offset $16.00 additional cost with $25 additional retail?


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> So this raises the question, what protection do you have from your suppliers when they send you the wrong stuff? Wrong color bezel inserts are costing you time and money. They should take them all back, fix them, test them and return them to you.
> 
> Ive not dealt with buying stuff in China, but elsewhere in the world, if the supplier doesn't deliver the goods to spec, he doesn't get paid until he fixes it.
> 
> Maybe in the watch world you have to take it or leave it?


My experience with Chinese suppliers is the stuff is paid for when it gets on the boat.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

qiao.feng said:


> Thanks for the info! Will check it out


I just looked up the prices of those Rubber Bs...seems to be the same strap with a 600% markup.

Yikes.

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

How is the inside on that Meyhover striped strap? Any texturing or ventilation?

Edit: interestingly, this is the second company who'se "for Rolex" bracelets fit very well on the subs. I wonder, any other "for Rolex" fitted bracelets/straps out there to check out?


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> How is the inside on that Meyhover striped strap? Any texturing or ventilation?
> 
> Edit: interestingly, this is the second company who'se "for Rolex" bracelets fit very well on the subs. I wonder, any other "for Rolex" fitted bracelets/straps out there to check out?


The fit really is flawless. Mine is plain but if you want a textured inside they have some other models. 









watch addict in recovery


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> So this raises the question, what protection do you have from your suppliers when they send you the wrong stuff? Wrong color bezel inserts are costing you time and money. They should take them all back, fix them, test them and return them to you.
> 
> Ive not dealt with buying stuff in China, but elsewhere in the world, if the supplier doesn't deliver the goods to spec, he doesn't get paid until he fixes it.
> 
> Maybe in the watch world you have to take it or leave it?


It doesn't raise the question.

I've got a relationship. There's a give and take, and a way to handle things when things go wrong.

I've got it under control. Acting like an ugly American, and demanding things get done the American way only works in America.



Jtragic said:


> So you offset $16.00 additional cost with $25 additional retail?


I don't know how you got $16 out of what I said, and I can't tell if you're serious or joking, but if you're serious, telling you what I think you should do to yourself would get me an insta-ban.

Use your imagination.

What my costs are, what the increases are, and how I adjust to them is my business. If you don't like it, don't be a customer.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

docvail said:


> It doesn't raise the question.
> 
> I've got a relationship. There's a give and take, and a way to handle things when things go wrong.
> 
> ...


Lighten up Doc. You said you could spend $1.60 on ten different things and they add up.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Jtragic said:


> Lighten up Doc. You said you could spend $1.60 on ten different things and they add up.


Not including any additional labor, overhead, shipping, etc...

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

It was a joke.

Now I remember why I stopped following the thread .


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Jtragic said:


> It was a joke.
> 
> Now I remember why I stopped following the thread .


No need for a pity party and blaming others for your mistakes.

Grow up and take responsibility for your poor digital communication skills. You wrote a provocative post with no indication that it was a joke. You could have used emojis or many other ways to show it, but you didn't, out of laziness or carelessness. Either way, you should act like an adult and own your mistake instead of blaming other people.

Doc Savage


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Jtragic said:


> Lighten up Doc. You said you could spend $1.60 on ten different things and they add up.





Jtragic said:


> It was a joke.
> 
> Now I remember why I stopped following the thread .


It's not something I find funny.

I spent the first two years in this business not paying myself one thin dime. When I started paying myself, for the next two years, I only took out half of what I actually put on the books for my "salary". I didn't give myself a pay increase until two years ago.

Those were hard years on my family, requiring a lot of sacrifice. The years ain't easy yet. I've spent a good bit of time having to deal with jackwagons online, who insisted on telling me I was charging TOO MUCH, even as I wasn't paying myself, at all, or asking if I'll accept less. I still get guys asking for discounts. Don't even get me started on all the shills looking for free swag, and all the others trying to fit their hands into my pockets.

You want to joke around, we can joke around. Find something else to joke about, and I'll make with the hah-hahs.

Make me think you're suggesting I'm gouging my customers, or not delivering a good value, you'll want to make sure you're out of arm's reach, 'cause that ain't something you want to joke about, at least not with me.


----------



## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

illumidata said:


> I just looked up the prices of those Rubber Bs...seems to be the same strap with a 600% markup.
> 
> Yikes.
> 
> Watch Addict In Recovery


I know right? That's why I'm interested in trying out the Meyhofer, there's a lot to choose from!


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Sun and fun! I figure with enough wear, plenty of sun, some chlorine, and a whole lot of 'hopes and dreams,' in about 20 years I'll end up with a faded bezel and a tropical dial. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

jelliottz said:


> Sun and fun! I figure with enough wear, plenty of sun, some chlorine, and a whole lot of 'hopes and dreams,' in about 20 years I'll end up with a faded bezel and a tropical dial.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Idk how they pull off those faded bezels, dials. I recently got a 40-ish year old Seiko diver from Japan (lots of sun and humidity) and it doesn't show any fade at all.

Maybe it was sitting in a box, who knows. Maybe if someone was to work on a sunny beach for decades, or maybe its just cheap paint/technique on certain batches...

Btw. nice bracelet you have there!


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Idk how they pull off those faded bezels, dials. I recently got a 40-ish year old Seiko diver from Japan (lots of sun and humidity) and it doesn't show any fade at all.
> 
> Maybe it was sitting in a box, who knows. Maybe if someone was to work on a sunny beach for decades, or maybe its just cheap paint/technique on certain batches...
> 
> Btw. nice bracelet you have there!


Paint reacts differently to different conditions. It usually requires a lot of sun expose. Salt water or chlorine don't hurt either. A lot of modern watches use ceramic. Chris uses PVD steel. I don't foresee either of those fading. There's still quite a few aluminum bezel inserts in use (including mine). Those have a better potential to fade. Late 90s and early 2000s Submariners and SMPs have aluminum inserts that have ghosted in less than 20 years.

And thanks for the compliment on the bracelet (don't let @docvail hear you though). It's a vintage Sicura stretch rivet bracelet. It'sightweight and comfy in all conditions, and the stretch allows it to fit proper throughout the day as my wrist expands and contracts.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

You'll never walk alone...










Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Love my Nth and Doc. Ducky face kisses for you.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Love my Nth and Doc. Ducky face kisses for you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Baller.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Blurracuda back on steel for the beach tomorrow morning. Now for a tasty beverage.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Make me think you're suggesting I'm gouging my customers, or not delivering a good value, you'll want to make sure you're out of arm's reach, 'cause that ain't something you want to joke about, at least not with me.
> 
> View attachment 14196907


True story: Used to work with a guy who was always going on about being from the "mean streets of Philly" (not verbatim, but you get the idea). Then one day we went to Philly on a business trip. His mom had us over for Philly cheese steaks...

At his family home in *King of Prussia*.

Doc probably just choked on his drink when he read that. For those of you who aren't familiar, King of Prussia is a VERY upscale suburb of Philly.

I never let that one go.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Coriolanus said:


> True story: Used to work with a guy who was always going on about being from the "mean streets of Philly" (not verbatim, but you get the idea). Then one day we went to Philly on a business trip. His mom had us over for Philly cheese steaks...
> 
> At his family home in *King of Prussia*.
> 
> ...


IDK, 'ish can pop off over parking around Xmas time at KOP...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Someone PM me when the testosterone decreases. Keyboard warriors boor the crap out of me. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> It's not something I find funny.
> 
> I spent the first two years in this business not paying myself one thin dime. When I started paying myself, for the next two years, I only took out half of what I actually put on the books for my "salary". I didn't give myself a pay increase until two years ago.
> 
> ...


Mike (Jtrajic) is a stand up guy. He meant it as a joke. I know going off of text somebody writes its now always easy to discern the meaning. But I back up Mike 100%, he's a good guy.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Shane: just spent the better part of the week with a fistful of Torontians in Philadelphia. God save the Canadians! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Boom, y'all.
> 
> View attachment 14196205


That's some serious coordination with the matching color and similar texture strap.

Glad you posted that. Really handsome date window. I'd definitely consider getting a Santa Cruz with date if I didn't already have a no date. Wore mine tonight as a matter of fact - perfect for a summer festival.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

hwa said:


> Shane: just spent the better part of the week with a fistful of Torontians in Philadelphia. God save the Canadians!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not to be that guy, but... it's a fistful of "Torontonians"... Related to but in no measure superior to, in the common parlance, a lap full of "Edmontontonians".

Heh..

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

captainmorbid said:


> Not to be that guy, but... it's a fistful of "Torontonians"... Related to but in no measure superior to, in the common parlance, a lap full of "Edmontontonians".
> 
> Heh..
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


Nah. Im sticking with my pithier version.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Torontontos? Torontontoii?


----------



## Disneydave (Jan 17, 2016)

Does that make people from Ontario Ontariotorians or Ontarioans?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Ontos.


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

Torontonians & Ontarians is propper


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

drwindsurf said:


> Torontonians & Ontarians is propper


Sheesh...."proper" is proper.

A "propper" is one who props.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> Loving my Santa Fe on Jubilee.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please link me to that bracelet ??


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

City74 said:


> I'll have to say that an NTH sub is the only micro I'd consider spending $650 or so on. The more I look the more I like. I have resigned myself to getting one just don't know which. It will be the unicorn micro of the my collection so gotta be special. I'll just make sure I buy before June 14th ��


The price is very reasonable for what you're getting. I think my SKX mod is now approaching $650, because I can't stop messing with it. SKX ain't no NTH, that's for sure.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

illumidata said:


> It's a Meyhofer- fit is perfect, install is easy, it's supple and it smells good.
> 
> There's a blue accent and plain version as well (and at least 2 other more expensive curved end models).
> 
> ...


I normally don't like the look of fitted rubber straps, but that is a brilliant combo.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

jelliottz said:


> Sun and fun! I figure with enough wear, plenty of sun, some chlorine, and a whole lot of 'hopes and dreams,' in about 20 years I'll end up with a faded bezel and a tropical dial.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Arg. I know Doc would never do it that way, but the Seiko insert on BVB is pure sex. Not really sold on the minute/hour combo, however. What insert is that, btw? ............asking for a friend.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Please link me to that bracelet ??


￡10.87 50％ Off | 20mm Metal Watchbands Bracelet Men 316L Stainless Steel Watch Band Women Fashion Watch Strap Deployment Clasp Buckle Accessories
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/cpB9PSl2

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> I normally don't like the look of fitted rubber straps, but that is a brilliant combo.


Thanks  I agree, and it's very hard to predict fit, and they mostly come at a premium - interestingly it didn't work particularly well on my Nassau, it would rotate on the spring bar and the dial is too austere to balance the red stripe. No such problems with the BVB.

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Seriously this is one of the hardest threads to follow.... I don't check in for a couple of hours and there are 50+ postings... No other thread had this sort of activity... all I'm after is some news on the XL releases....

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Red PeeKay said:


> Seriously this is one of the hardest threads to follow.... I don't check in for a couple of hours and there are 50+ postings... No other thread had this sort of activity... all I'm after is some news on the XL releases....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Subscribe through doc's website for news if that's all you're after.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Red PeeKay said:


> Seriously this is one of the hardest threads to follow.... I don't check in for a couple of hours and there are 50+ postings... No other thread had this sort of activity... all I'm after is some news on the XL releases....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Just as a counterpoint, I have seen it go a couple days with no posts at all.


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Arg. I know Doc would never do it that way, but the Seiko insert on BVB is pure sex. Not really sold on the minute/hour combo, however. What insert is that, btw? ............asking for a friend.


This was the goal; a modern version of the Calypsomatic. 
















That insert is the closest I could find with all the correct markings except for the 30. It's made for an SKX031 (7s26-0040 if memory serves).

I've owned a number of Calypsomatics, but I was always wary of taking them in the water. I have no fear with this one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> True story: Used to work with a guy who was always going on about being from the "mean streets of Philly" (not verbatim, but you get the idea). Then one day we went to Philly on a business trip. His mom had us over for Philly cheese steaks...
> 
> At his family home in *King of Prussia*.
> 
> ...


KoP is right up the road from where I live. This ain't where I'm from.

Various areas' degrees of Philly-ness is something people from the area apparently enjoy debating.

I grew up in Delaware County, aka Delco. It wasn't exactly "mean streets" but it definitely wasn't all nice manners and finery.

If where I'm from doesn't adequately explain, let the time spent with the Rangers back-fill the missing bits.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Orthos ii mod today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Almost glass calm at the beach this morning. Gorgeous sunrise:









There was a pod of dolphins working the same school of fish as this kayaker. I wasn't able to get a good picture of them breaching, unfortunately, but they weren't far offshore. Lots of fresh seashells on the beach for the boy to collect as well. All around, one of those perfect mornings that I hope for when I get up before sunrise to head to the beach, but only occasionally get. Cheers!


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)




----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)




----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

I'm preaching to the choir here, but I'm impressed, very impressed, with the NTH BVB. Whilst my Tudor has been away for a service this has been on my wrist pretty much every day, prefer it to the Oris 65 and it feels soooo damm comfortable on.

I put it on in the morning and forget its there and then check the time and that gilt goodness makes me stop and stare. Love the bezel and the vintage style and I think it looks better than Tudors effort with the BB58, they should have asked Doc about before they copied him badly .

If I was going to be super, super critical I'd wish for a 20mm to 16mm taper on the bracelet, but I've gotten so used to it I'm not bothered anymore.

The thing is trying to capture the beauty of the dial in a photo. I've tried my best here......




























.....waffled on as I can't be bothered to do a review anymore for anything.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Mmm. 20->16mm tapered bracelet would be neat. Perhaps there is something aftermarket out there.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Mmm. 20->16mm tapered bracelet would be neat. Perhaps there is something aftermarket out there.


Probably is, but with SELs that fit perfectly and as nice as the OEM? Nah, not a chance.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_2899.jpg


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

.









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Hornet99 said:


> Probably is, but with SELs that fit perfectly and as nice as the OEM? Nah, not a chance.


I bought one from AliExpress that fits pretty well.

￡14.49 41％ Off | CARLYWET 20mm 316L Stainless Steel Two Tone Gold Silver Solid Curved End Link Deployment Clasp Wrist Watch Band Strap Bracelet 
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bwLoX1Wu










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## green_pea (May 10, 2016)

Rubberised Odin


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

DuckaDiesel said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, you got that DevilRay itch, I see  My only regret about getting the Barracuda is that I now have to choose between it and my DR.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Coriolanus said:


> Yeah, you got that DevilRay itch, I see  My only regret about getting the Barracuda is that I now have to choose between it and my DR.


"Have to"?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> I bought one from AliExpress that fits pretty well.
> 
> ￡14.49 41％ Off | CARLYWET 20mm 316L Stainless Steel Two Tone Gold Silver Solid Curved End Link Deployment Clasp Wrist Watch Band Strap Bracelet
> https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bwLoX1Wu
> ...


That looks better than a $20 Ali Express bracelet has any right to.

I don't think direct links to that site will work here. At least, yours didn't, for me. But a search of that site turned up a NOT two-tone steel bracelet, with a decent-looking clasp, and links that sort of look solid, but I can't tell for sure. They don't look as thin/flimsy as folded links usually do, yet still seem to have that hollowed-out C-shape.









Here's a discussion I can start, and not need to argue one way or the other - can we talk about the fit of the end-links vs lugs?

I notice that some old Rolexes have end-links which are recessed below the surface of the lugs. Others are flush. Obviously, we chose to make the NTH links flush with the lugs, but it's not like we put a lot of thought into it. We never considered the alternative.

Which way is "right" would seem arbitrary. Which looks better is a matter of taste, I suppose, but, I gotta say, I don't think this looks bad, at all. The stepped-down surface of the links add a bit of visual texture.

If it's not a complete POS, it's hard to argue with it for $20. Well bought, Sam.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Hengrc also has the jubilee bracelet.. just saying


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

..









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)




----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

NTH sub case does not deserve the endlinks it has. 
They just look like an afterthought if you are being neatpickey to the smallest details. 
Obviously its not a deal breaker. 
I would love to see solid endlinks from a 5 digit rolex sub (ginault has the same) that have the middle part raised above the sides abd would pay another 25 more for them if needed. 
If not those then the end links with the flexible middle portion would be my second choice but not sure if they would look as good as current endlinks but it would definitely wear better as the current endlinks extend lug to lug.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I did not put him up to this, chris. I swear. 

But I definitely said it first, or at least the most. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Which way is "right" would seem arbitrary. Which looks better is a matter of taste, I suppose, but, I gotta say, I don't think this looks bad, at all. The stepped-down surface of the links add a bit of visual texture.


I'm not mad at the stepped-down surface look. I always assume that a portion of the center section is more or less on plane with the top of the lugs. So there is some sort of flushness, some sort of order going on. Which is good enough for me. Subconscious OCD hang ups appeased, the stepped-down outer sections are cleared to provide the visual texture you mentioned.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Fwiw, I prefer / like stepped-down endlinks, where the top surface sits lower than the lug surface. Especially if that is paired with a bevelled inner-lug-edge (like Monta does), it looks perfect.

Here's an extreme example of flush vs. step-down - for most people probably the step-down sits too low - but I like this look more than the flush look. (The devilray also has that inset, stepped down look, which - again - imo works very well for it.

flush (imo, dull-looking, hides case shape a lot):

























and step-down (imo, gives more texture and shape to the watch):


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> NTH sub case does not deserve the endlinks it has.
> They just look like an afterthought if you are being neatpickey to the smallest details.
> Obviously its not a deal breaker.
> I would love to see solid endlinks from a 5 digit rolex sub (ginault has the same) that have the middle part raised above the sides abd would pay another 25 more for them if needed.
> ...


I can't tell if you're joking, trying to poke the bear, because it's been discussed a good bit already, or if you're serious.

I also don't know what a "flexible middle portion" means. Is that the "female" end-links with the hollow center-section, to accommodate the center-section of the next link? At least that much was definitely NOT an afterthought. It was debated within my inner circle. I'll take the blame for the extended end-links, and I'd argue the degree to which they extend the lug length, given the downward curve to both lugs and the links.

Plus - there's NO definition in the center-section with that style of end-link.

The middle section *IS* raised from the outer sections. The thickness of that center section is limited by the case/lug thickness, both of which are thin - which is the entire point of the NTH Subs. They get thinner as the links meet the curve of the case, shrinking the center section further, which is out of our control. That's just geometry, and it limits what we can or can't do with the differential between the sections.

There are only two ways to increase that definition:

1. Lower the outer sections, to sit below the lugs, which was the current topic I'd just raised, I thought, but not something we want to do, because it triggers people's OCD when it's not a "Rolex".

2. CNC machine the end-links. Doing that won't increase the height difference, only make the edge sharper (which, knowing WIS tendencies, would draw complaints about the sharpness of the end-links' center-sections). Doing that would also add a lot more than $25 to the price. Try $100.

Everything is a give-and-take. We have made and continue to make quality improvements when they seem to offer the best mileage. Adding $100 to the price of the watch, just to get marginally nicer end-links doesn't seem like it would be good mileage, certainly not if it meant pulling back on quality in other ways, in order to offset the added cost.

This is one of those complaints that sort of drives me up the wall - what people want us to do, i.e, increase the height difference between center-section and outer sections of the end links, simply cannot be done. We can't change geometry. We can only choose alternatives which bring their own drawbacks.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

I'm personally a fan of the end links as shown on the MKII below.....










However, I'd take the excellent fit and quality of the NTH over the rubbish that I had on the MKII.....

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I am for option number 1.
It would give the endlinks more of a 3d look. 
Current endlinks feel like an afterthought comparing to everything else because of lack of depth in the endlinks so you cannot see different transitions like you do on the case if that makes sense.
I didn't say they were an afterthought. 
I just mentioned female endlinks being my second option as a side note, similar to what Monta OK has but they may not look as good as the current ones.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> That looks better than a $20 Ali Express bracelet has any right to.
> 
> I don't think direct links to that site will work here. At least, yours didn't, for me. But a search of that site turned up a NOT two-tone steel bracelet, with a decent-looking clasp, and links that sort of look solid, but I can't tell for sure. They don't look as thin/flimsy as folded links usually do, yet still seem to have that hollowed-out C-shape.
> 
> ...


Chris, you are correct, there is a slight indentation in the end link, but they are solid and sit flush. I am not sure if it has anything to do with the Rolex cases they were designed to fit.










The other benefit is they come with the fold over divers extension in the clasp as well.










I quite like the way the sides sit slightly lower and the centre link is level with the lugs, but that might just be me. Either way, the 20-16 taper, although it's only 2mm thinner, gives the watch a more comfortable feel on the wrist and looks like less of a slab. I really dislike bracelets that have no taper at all!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Or that Oris' tapers of 20mm to a crazy 14mm. It almost looks weird but very comfy.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Slightly OT but I've always liked the look of leather with pic related, but never risked picking any up...might have to test the waters soon.









watch addict in recovery


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

jelliottz said:


> This was the goal; a modern version of the Calypsomatic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, the handset makes sense now. The bezel on the Calypsomatic is a dead ringer for the UN Le Locle, except backwards. I have yet to understand the appeal of the countdown bezel.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Here's a discussion I can start, and not need to argue one way or the other - can we talk about the fit of the end-links vs lugs?
> 
> I notice that some old Rolexes have end-links which are recessed below the surface of the lugs. Others are flush. Obviously, we chose to make the NTH links flush with the lugs, but it's not like we put a lot of thought into it. We never considered the alternative.
> 
> ...


Not a bracelet guy so it ultimately doesn't matter, but I tend to prefer the sunken end link look over flush, it seems to provide more visual interest.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Hornet99 said:


> I'm personally a fan of the end links as shown on the MKII below.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It could have been worse 

That said the straight overhang above the links is a good look.









watch addict in recovery


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

A counter set endlink makes sense with a CNC endlink. Otherwise, the centerlink would stand proud of the lugs. Do the math, gents!

It would work with molded endlinks, too, but whereas it's practically necessary with cnc links, its a matter of aesthetics for the molded (because no sharp edges to knock).

Heres a watch without a bracelet










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> That looks better than a $20 Ali Express bracelet has any right to.
> 
> I don't think direct links to that site will work here. At least, yours didn't, for me. But a search of that site turned up a NOT two-tone steel bracelet, with a decent-looking clasp, and links that sort of look solid, but I can't tell for sure. They don't look as thin/flimsy as folded links usually do, yet still seem to have that hollowed-out C-shape.
> 
> ...


I personally like the "outers" of the end link to be recessed and the middle to be raised, just adds a touch of "dimension" to that section. Exactly like that Ginault pic posted a few up from this comment.

I do think for that to "work" the inner section of the lugs should have a slight bevel.......but that may being nit picky and surely that adds cost that may not be worth it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I am for option number 1.
> It would give the endlinks more of a 3d look.
> Current endlinks feel like an afterthought comparing to everything else because of lack of depth in the endlinks so you cannot see different transitions like you do on the case if that makes sense.
> I didn't say they were an afterthought.
> I just mentioned female endlinks being my second option as a side note, similar to what Monta OK has but they may not look as good as the current ones.


Sorry if my tone sounded harsh. I'm aware it occasionally does, even if I don't mean it to. I sometimes try to cut down on the word-count by leaving out the softening words, but maybe I ought to find some other technique.

I think I follow you, and the very reason why I mentioned the fit of the end-links on the bracelet Sam posted is because I wanted to hear people's thoughts on what looks better, the links sitting flush with the lugs, or being slightly recessed, which, at least in theory, would lead to more definition in the center-section, thereby addressing one of the most persistent complaints we've gotten.

I'm loathe to change the design for the 40mm NTH Subs, but I promise it's something I'll continue to consider, and we may do it in the future. I've already got the next 1200 pieces in production, so it's unlikely that we'll make the change before next year. Maybe it's something we can look at doing for the upcoming L/XL Sub, and if it's well-received, perhaps carry that over to the next round of 40mm Subs production.

My fear about doing links that way has been from reading comments from people suggesting that recessed end-links look like an afterthought. When we got the first Subs' prototypes back in 2016, the bracelets were completely wrong (non-tapering Presidents). In order to get the protos out for review, I fitted aftermarket bracelets from Strapcode, designed for the Seiko SKX031, and I recall some folks commenting that the recessed links looked amateurish.

Perhaps it's just one of those many things - okay for Rolex to do it, but God help the small brand who follows suit.



Hornet99 said:


> I'm personally a fan of the end links as shown on the MKII below.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the style I don't like (sorry).

I don't like the look of the end-link, generally. It looks inelegant to me.

The purported benefit is that, as compared to the style with the extended center-section, it doesn't add to the effective lug length.

But when you've got downward-curved lugs, and a likewise downward-curved center-section, it's not like the lug-length is being extended all that much in the horizontal plane, the way it would be if the case and lugs were more or less flat/straight-across.

It's more like the center-link simply extends the lines of an arch. Yes, the horizontal length is greater, but that's what happens if you add to an arc. Yet it doesn't create any wrist over-hang, because the radius is unchanged.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

illumidata said:


> Slightly OT but I've always liked the look of leather with pic related, but never risked picking any up...might have to test the waters soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, God, no.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

P.S. The best endlink is a crumpled up piece of tinfoil jammed between the case and the springbar.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I personally like the "outers" of the end link to be recessed and the middle to be raised, just adds a touch of "dimension" to that section. Exactly like that Ginault pic posted a few up from this comment.
> 
> I do think for that to "work" the inner section of the lugs should have a slight bevel.......but that may being nit picky and surely that adds cost that may not be worth it.


See? This is why I tend to avoid these sort of Pandora's box discussions.

We start out thinking about a hypothetical change to the links, one which I don't think would add any cost, yet possibly be more aesthetically pleasing, but soon enough, I foresee the next complaint - "They should have beveled the inner-surfaces of the lugs, the way ____ does."

I wonder how much of what seems "right" is really just arbitrary, and/or the result of some people's preferences somehow becoming the accepted standard.

Changing the link is one thing. Changing the case is a different thing, and wasn't on my agenda.

If changing the link is going to lead to people calling for a change to the case, I may as well just design a whole new model, which, I'm not going to do right away, as we've already got one in the pipeline.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

docvail said:


> Oh, God, no.


Watch this space 
I promise not to do it to the Nth.

watch addict in recovery


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

No need to apologize.
Why bother changing it if no one is complaining and they are flying off the shelves.
It's obvious that 10 people replied with 10 different answers haha. 
BTW let's see them new designs if they are already in production.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> See? This is why I tend to avoid these sort of Pandora's box discussions.
> 
> We start out thinking about a hypothetical change to the links, one which I don't think would add any cost, yet possibly be more aesthetically pleasing, but soon enough, I foresee the next complaint - "They should have beveled the inner-surfaces of the lugs, the way ____ does."
> 
> ...


Completely agree. I was just going down my own rabbit hole of "if I were in charge" dreaming lol.

No matter what it wont stop me from getting the watch  I would be more than satisfied with just a change to the end link


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

I do like the recessed-sides-raised-middle look for endlinks, ala the Ginault Ocean Rover, and, no, I don't think you need to bevel the edges to get it to look good.

That said, the current NTH sub endlinks are fine as-is, and redesigning them just seems like an unnecessary headache.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Omegafanboy said:


> I bought one from AliExpress that fits pretty well.
> 
> ￡14.49 41％ Off | CARLYWET 20mm 316L Stainless Steel Two Tone Gold Silver Solid Curved End Link Deployment Clasp Wrist Watch Band Strap Bracelet
> https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bwLoX1Wu
> ...


I wish I knew why when I bought what *appeared* to be the same bracelet, the end links weren't even close to fitting the nth case.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> I do like the recessed-sides-raised-middle look for endlinks, ala the Ginault Ocean Rover, and, no, I don't think you need to bevel the edges to get it to look good.
> 
> That said, the current NTH sub endlinks are fine as-is, and redesigning them just seems like an unnecessary headache.


That's also my fear.

Whenever we change anything, there's the real possibility that we'll have unintended consequences, or just that it will be work done for no measurable benefit, which is work I hate doing.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

I ordered a few, guess I may have to get the dremel going 



92gli said:


> I wish I knew why when I bought what *appeared* to be the same bracelet, the end links weren't even close to fitting the nth case.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> That's also my fear.
> 
> Whenever we change anything, there's the real possibility that we'll have unintended consequences, or just that it will be work done for no measurable benefit, which is work I hate doing.


I don't think anyone has looked at one of the NTH subs and said, "It's *almost* perfect, but I'm not prepared to shell out the big bucks unless the sides of those endlinks are slightly recessed."

Well, then again, watch people are lunatics, so maybe _somebody_ thought that. But they're vastly outnumbered by people who probably didn't notice it. I didn't even really think about my preference until it got brought up in this thread.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

As soon as you change the endlinks for the x number of people who say you should do it, you'll hear from 2x the number of people who said nothing, but now "won't buy the watch because I liked the old endlink style better."


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

For me the best end links are far away from the case, in a box with all the other unused straps.









*Edit: This is not a dig at NTH bracelets. I'm sure they're lovely for people who like bracelets.


----------



## Champ18 (Jun 18, 2017)

Sussa said:


> For me the best end links are far away from the case, in a box with all the other unused straps.


Agreed. I have at at least a half dozen watches that came on bracelets. Every one of them was immediately replaced with a strap. Still, I find this topic intriguing. Bottom line, everyone has different tastes. Can't please everyone. So you put out what you like personally and don't worry about the nit pickers. Or spend tons of money on market research. Ugh.


----------



## Champ18 (Jun 18, 2017)

Dangit!! 
double post. sorry.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Decided to wear a bracelet. I like it me thinks.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

And here I have always thought the flushed end links were a sign of something well engineered, designed, a refined look and elegant. It looks great.

But the Ginault photo above does also look good and I see the appeal to some.

I just trust the designers that they made every decision for a reason and with some thought, especially with NTH and the community that surrounds it. It would be interesting to see this recessed link on the XL sub and may fit that larger case very well.

...and if someone complains about the flush end links.. send them a link over to the XL sub.

Problem solved.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

This comment is made with zero knowledge of costs and complications, but could both end links be an option? Maybe one as an accessory?

Dont get me wrong Doc, if you dont change the links, it wont stop me from buying lol, but as long as we are all making nit picky wish lists we might as well share our thoughts


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

PixlPutterMan said:


> This comment is made with zero knowledge of costs and complications, but could both end links be an option? Maybe one as an accessory?
> 
> Dont get me wrong Doc, if you dont change the links, it wont stop me from buying lol, but as long as we are all making nit picky wish lists we might as well share our thoughts


:::braces for DocStorm impact:::

This would obviously add a lot of expense and engineering headaches. Doc has been honest about how hard it has been to get the current endlinks to work.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

How terrible is this endlink fitment hah (PS watch is over $3k).


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



tim_herremans said:


> I just trust the designers that they made every decision for a reason


Well, you may think that, but then you realize that we're talking about docvail. >:]


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Public Service Announcement:

Since we're talking about bracelets and endlinks, the new bracelets are awesome, and I like them better than the older version. But the holes for the screws connecting the links are a tiny bit smaller than the average "came-free-with-a-watch" screw driver, which I've found to be typically 1.5mm. I just purchased two different 1.2mm screw drivers from a big over-night online retailer whose name ends in "zon" for around $5 USD each. TOTALLY worth the money. I'm able to remove and tighten those screws now with no difficulty.

And now back to discussing endlinks. On a related note, there's an old saying: if you ask 10 pilots about the weather, you'll get 20 opinions. Seems appropriate.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Its weird how many expensive watches get endlinks wrong. IMO the crowd that shops in the +2k - 10k price class is less sceptical than the 1k micro brand buyer. They tend to manifest the idea that it must be perfect since its sort of expensive, while the micro brand buyer enjoys complaining about the world.
At least what I observed reading around here.

The TC v8... ehm I mean Ginault nails the bracelet and they actually seem to supply every second halios owner with one, lol. If it wasn't for the weird discount campaign last year and the cringy/unacceptable dial text + dubious movement I'd probably have considered one.


My 2c. on nth bracelets.

Of course its always a matter of taste. IMO the 5 digit sub-ish - especially NTH case (since this one has even pointier lugs) is an elegant case. Not bulky and very sharp lines in a thin case. Another element all nth subs share is the bezel - again very grippy and sharp almost industrial design.

The brushing on the case is straight which puts more emphasis on the lines of the case. This all begs for more sharp lines. One can emphasise this look by recessing the endlink sides.

In my perfect world, the endlinks are machined, recessed and we get the old oyster style links with sharp edges back. In addition with a custom thin and compact clasp that features a diver's extension.
This certainly doesn't make sense from NTH's perspective but I enjoy talking about it. 

I have a very small collection and tend to want everything be as perfect as possible so I mod around. Part of the hobby and gives me pleasure. That's why I have a 5 digi sub bracelet incoming.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> This comment is made with zero knowledge of costs and complications, but could both end links be an option? Maybe one as an accessory?
> 
> Dont get me wrong Doc, if you dont change the links, it wont stop me from buying lol, but as long as we are all making nit picky wish lists we might as well share our thoughts


"Options" = complications.

For every one thing we make "optional" (date/no-date, for example), it doubles the number of variations, and adds to the complexity involved in our operations, from assembly through to delivery.

Black dial, white dial = two SKUs.

Add a date/no-date to those two = 4 SKUs.

Make the bracelet optional = 8 SKUs.

Each "model" is a single page on my website, where we have the ability to add options, like date/no-date. Imagine having to build out each model with multiple options - date/no-date, bracelet/strap, this/that endlink, etc, etc, etc.

You see how this goes. We've got upwards of a dozen SKUs in each production already. Our most recent production had 21 unique SKUs. It's a lot to manage post-production, and adds delays in-production.

Additionally, many components have their own MOQs.

My MOQ on bracelets is 300 pieces. If we were to make the choice of end-link an option, it would mean we'd have to make at least 300 of each.

What do I do if I find that one type of end-link outsells the other by 2-to-1? That's not a small problem, or an easy one for me to unwind, after we've produced 600 watches, and are sitting on a bunch of slow-selling inventory, because guys are waiting for us to produce more with their preferred end-link.

I don't mean to say the question is silly, but generally, a lot of the "can't you make ____ an option" questions are silly (at least, silly for me to even consider), in that context, when we compare the complexity we're adding in our operations to any reasonable expectation of the supposed benefits of making ____ optional.

Are there people who don't buy NTH Subs because the end-links don't please them? Maybe. Does that bother me? Not really, so long as we're still selling them like fire sells to cavemen.

In the past, I've made decisions because people complained about something, and I wanted the complaints to stop, without realizing that the change I was going to make wouldn't do anything to improve sales, and would just result in a new/different complaint.

The complaints never stop, is the truth of it. I just need to learn how to shrug with more confidence and conviction.

I don't want to tell people to STFU about it all, but....c'mon...sometimes, some folks need to just STFU about some of this stuff, and let the product be what it is.

The tendency among WIS to feel compelled to complain and find fault where "normal" people wouldn't even understand what's supposedly "wrong" can become maddening after a while. I once got a negative product review from someone suggesting the buckle on one of our rubber straps was sub-par.

A buckle. On a $35 natural rubber strap. Sub-par. Disappointing, in a $35 natural rubber strap from Italy. So disappointing the urge to leave a negative review could not be denied.

Let that sink in. It's not even the most nit-picky review or complaint we've received. My head hurts just reading some of them.

I'm reminded of a comment I once saw on FB, about the owner of now-defunct Orsa deciding to close up shop and do something else, after getting tired of dealing with WIS and their endless, petty complaints about non-issues.

Some days, I totally get it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of cavemen, and their love of fire...

We're down to just 3 NTH Subs left in stock. All 3 are Näcken Renegade, with Date.

597 watches, out the door, in less than a month. 

Tell me I'm over-hyping stuff, will you?

Side note - I'm not sure if I hate my Scandinavian friend more because the Näcken was named for a naked, child-murdering, fiddle-playing river-sprite, or for the way my OCD drives me to pull the "ä" character out of the MS "insert" menu, instead of just being lazy and typing "a".

I can't blame anyone else for the Scorpène, and its "è". That one was all me.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Side note - I'm not sure if I hate my Scandinavian friend more because the Näcken was named for a naked, child-murdering, fiddle-playing river-sprite, or for the way my OCD drives me to pull the "ä" character out of the MS "insert" menu, instead of just being lazy and typing "a".


Näcken, with the umlaut ä, is more metal. Definitely more metal. \m/


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> "Options" = complications.
> 
> I don't want to tell people to STFU about it all, but....c'mon...sometimes, some folks need to just STFU about some of this stuff, and let the product be what it is.
> 
> The tendency among WIS to feel compelled to complain and find fault where "normal" people wouldn't even understand what's supposedly "wrong" can become maddening after a while. I once got a negative product review from someone suggesting the buckle on one of our rubber straps was sub-par.


That is perfectly stated.

I think as enthusiasts, we love that we can talk with Micro Owners. But that just opens the can of "what if you did it this way...." worms for you.

We get all wrapped up in being any part of the "process" 

Try conversing with Rolex.....

In the end you have to make the business decision, not us, and when us cavemen will buy your fire anyway you have to what you need to do to keep the cave doors open 

I will hardly ever not buy a watch because of the bracelet, and your bracelet is top notch no matter the endlink.

I think we need to remember the privilege it can be to converse with a shop owner, 95% never interact with the nerds.

Keep on keeping on, and really, only take design critique from us seriously IF the cavemen stop coming. Until then we are just making passing comments for your consideration


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Soooooooo jubilee? 




Heh... 


Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> That is perfectly stated.
> 
> I think as enthusiasts, we love that we can talk with Micro Owners. But that just opens the can of "what if you did it this way...." worms for you.
> 
> ...


I don't mean to portray my misery as being confined here on WUS.

Every transaction on our website triggers a future email invitation to review the products we delivered, which is a perpetually renewed area of opportunity for complaint.

It's not just WUS, it's all social media.

And on WUS, or social media, it's not just those speaking to me directly. I also lurk outside this thread, and see the comments people make. Not just about my products, but just about watches in general, and customer support, etc.

All manner of lunacy appears before me on a daily basis.

I once attempted to quantify, as close as I could get, what our true satisfaction/dissatisfaction ratio was.

How would that be done? Only about 5% of the people who go through checkout bother to come back and leave a review. 99% of those were positive, 4 or 5 out of 5 stars, but a 5% response rate doesn't seem like it would make for a reliably representative sampling, especially not if we assume that only the most motivated people bother to respond, either way.

The best I could come up with was to go back and count up all the truly awful interactions I had with customers, and divide by the total number of customers we had.

I came up with an astonishingly low number, around 0.25%-0.5%, depending on how I defined "truly awful".

I hesitate to assume that all of the other 99.5%-99.75% are "happy", but I have to assume none of them were unhappy enough to come back and make unhappy noises.

Every day, I try to remind myself of that, and the simple truth that 100% customer satisfaction is only possible in theory. No matter how low my price, no matter how high the quality, someone would always find a reason to complain.

My goal is to serve the 99.5%-99.75%, not the 0.25%-0.5%. I want that small number of perpetually unhappy souls to self-identify, and self-select themselves out of my life, before they buy anything from me, or as soon as possible thereafter.

I never hear from most customers. They buy, they move on down the road. Those I do hear from, the vast majority are nice, rational people, from what I can tell, and some are downright pleasant, in fact, flattering.

But it's that 0.25%-0.5% which suck up the most time, and implant themselves indelibly in my memory. If there are 25-30 truly awful people I've had to deal with, I'd likely remember more of their names than I would the people who are actually ecstatic about what we delivered to them.

So...if I ever seem less than thrilled to be conscious at the moment, hopefully everyone understands why.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Soooooooo jubilee?
> 
> Heh...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


>












Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14202313


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Current state of the collection. 
Sold everything off with ds30 listed for sale. 
I would not mind getting a date Scorpene if my ds30 sells without giving it away like people on this forum are accustomed to.
The only negative, I screwed up and ended up with all no dates.









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Oh, God, no.


I'm with you on this one - leather straps with steel end links: NEEEWWWP. Either shape the leather to fit the case like a Dangerous9 strap, or use a regular strap.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> See? This is why I tend to avoid these sort of Pandora's box discussions.
> 
> We start out thinking about a hypothetical change to the links, one which I don't think would add any cost, yet possibly be more aesthetically pleasing, but soon enough, I foresee the next complaint - "They should have beveled the inner-surfaces of the lugs, the way ____ does."
> 
> ...


I don't think the beveling on the inside edge of the lug is necessary to go with a sunken strap end link. Rolex doesn't do it on the Sub, and nobody seems to be yelling at them about that.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> ...*Rolex doesn't do it* on the Sub, and *nobody seems to be yelling at them* about that.


That could be the title of my autobiography.

I don't want to harp on this.

When I saw the comments about the fit of the aftermarket bracelets on the NTH protos, I already knew about how Rolex end-links fit. There's no point in making some arguments.

"Look at the fit of those end-links. Rubbish! Looks like an afterthought."

"That's how Rolex does it."

"So...it's just a knockoff Rolex? Whatever Rolex does, you do, is that it?"

It's not just the complaints which are truly subjective issues of people's preferences, either. It's also quality complaints.

"For what I paid, the bezel alignment should be PERFECT."

"Let me show you ten pics of ten watches which cost ten times more - and not a one with a bezel insert as well-aligned as ours."

"Would you want me posting a pic of this online? Wouldn't you be embarrassed to have people see this obvious defect you missed in QC?"

"Not as embarrassed as you're going to be when I publicly respond to ask why you would wear a watch with an 'obvious defect' for 3 weeks before bringing it to our attention."

You name the complaint about an NTH, I'll have you an image showing it worse on a watch costing 10 times more.

Handset alignment? I got you:









Blemishes and marks on hands? Oh, yeah...









Rolex uses ceramic inserts. They must be "better", because, Rolex.









Rolex has tighter QC.

One out of these two 9's agrees:









More fun and games, if you want to indulge - https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/bad-quality-control-lets-see-your-pics-4961025.html


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Agent Sands said:


> I don't think anyone has looked at one of the NTH subs and said, "It's *almost* perfect, but I'm not prepared to shell out the big bucks unless the sides of those endlinks are slightly recessed."
> 
> Well, then again, watch people are lunatics, so maybe _somebody_ thought that. But they're vastly outnumbered by people who probably didn't notice it. I didn't even really think about my preference until it got brought up in this thread.


Watch people are indeed lunatics who will obsess over any detail, no matter how small. I'm currently agonizing on whether to go matte black or polished black for the coin edge bezel replacing the fixed bezel on my SKX mod. 95% sure it's going to be polished so that it better matches the ceramic new gen SMP bezel insert. That being said, sunken end links or no wouldn't sway me one way or the other on a watch. A tool-less Glide Lock style clasp upgrade like the one on the MK3 Trident OTOH _would_ be a big deal, as that's a genuinely functional benefit, as opposed to a minor aesthetic change.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Champ18 said:


> Agreed. I have at at least a half dozen watches that came on bracelets. Every one of them was immediately replaced with a strap. Still, I find this topic intriguing. Bottom line, everyone has different tastes. Can't please everyone. So you put out what you like personally and don't worry about the nit pickers. Or spend tons of money on market research. Ugh.


Same. First thing I do when a new diver comes in the mail is take out the Bergeon and get that bugger off, never to go back on. I am mildly intrigued by Chris Ward's QR option, because I could......maybe see myself wearing it on a bracelet occasionally instead of rubber on really hot days where I don't want to sweat all over the leather strap, or if I'm taking it in water. I'm just not sure I'm $120 or so intrigued.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I personally like the "outers" of the end link to be recessed and the middle to be raised, just adds a touch of "dimension" to that section. Exactly like that Ginault pic posted a few up from this comment.
> 
> I do think for that to "work" the inner section of the lugs should have a slight bevel.......but that may being nit picky and surely that adds cost that may not be worth it.


Pretty please, lets not give Ginault credit for its 1:1 ripoff of the rolex bracelet. Wear it if you want, but sheesh.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

DuckaDiesel said:


> How terrible is this endlink fitment hah (PS watch is over $3k).
> 
> View attachment 14201563


The Chronomat Colt looks like a less interesting Halios Seaforth. I don't hate the bezel, but otherwise the design is so dull that it puts me to sleep.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Watch people are indeed lunatics who will obsess over any detail, no matter how small. I'm currently agonizing on whether to go matte black or polished black for the coin edge bezel replacing the fixed bezel on my SKX mod. 95% sure it's going to be polished so that it better matches the ceramic new gen SMP bezel insert. That being said, sunken end links or no wouldn't sway me one way or the other on a watch. A tool-less Glide Lock style clasp upgrade like the one on the MK3 Trident OTOH _would_ be a big deal, as that's a genuinely functional benefit, as opposed to a minor aesthetic change.


I'd argue whether or not we'd see any noticeable increase in sales if we added a glidelock clasp, even without a necessary increase in price. My bet would be on "not".

We offered an expansion clasp on the Tropics and DevilRay.

Anyone want to guess the most common complaint we hear about either of those models?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Seriously, anyone?

Every decision I make comes at a cost, monetary, or otherwise.

Add a "nicer" clasp = people choose whether to b1tch about the price increase, or just b1tch about the clasp.

Change the end-links, at no added cost = I get to discover the white-hot passion the heretofore silent majority had for our earlier end-link design.

Goddamit, boys - we're 3 pieces away from being sold out. 600 pieces, in a month. I literally - not figuratively - can't keep anything in stock.

Do I look like someone who needs product advice from anyone?

Buy it the way we make it, or don't. If you don't, someone else will. Don't worry about me. I'll be fine.

Go buy it from someone else if they're making it how you like it. I mean it. I won't be upset. I'll be happy. That's a win-win all around. You get the watch you want, that other brand makes a sale, and I don't have to hear the complaint about the _____.

If no one makes it how you like it, maybe that's the universe telling you to stop being so damned picky.

When the Army taught me how to shoot, they taught me to shoot "center-mass". I aim for the center of the target, because if you're off, you still hit. When you aim to hit the margins, and you're off, you miss entirely.

Product design is EXACTLY. THE. SAME.

I'm not making the perfect watch for the 0.25%-0.5%.

I'm just trying to sell the next 600 pieces, and I got 2400 peeps shouting at me to take their money.

Let me do my thing.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> The TC v8... ehm I mean Ginault nails the bracelet and they actually seem to supply every second halios owner with one, lol. If it wasn't for the weird discount campaign last year and the cringy/unacceptable dial text + dubious movement I'd probably have considered one.


This discount campaign was weird, and killed resale for awhile because who on earth would pay more for a used one than the 50% discount? Also agree on the dial text, "submersible maritime?" Really? They also regulate it but it is most definitely NOT COSC certified, so the "precision chronometer" is obnoxious as well. Still better than the 5-line Pelagos, though. Would you like some dial with that text, Tudor?

The next generation is supposedly going to just use a Sellita like everyone else, as I think a lot of people were pretty wary of their dubious ETA clone "from somewhere" movement.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> That could be the title of my autobiography.
> 
> I don't want to harp on this.
> 
> ...


At the end of the day though, some people are going to make the "Rolex rip-off" claim no matter what, right? Anything vaguely Submariner-ish will get that charge from some people, especially if you opt for Mercedes hands. Hell I've seen people complain that Zodiac Sea Wolves are Rolex rip-offs, I guess because they are dive watches and have rotating bezels. These people are usually unaware that the Sea Wolf also goes back to 1953, and LOTS of watches copied Zodiac's triangular markers at 3, 6, 9, and 12.

It's all silly. I suppose you could make an argument when you start approaching a 1:1 copy of a 5-digit like the Ocean Rover about going too far, but NTH subs are nowhere close to that.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Lest you think us utterly ungrateful, we clubbed together and got you this mug...








...which you can have on the condition that we can continue to bombard you with unsolicited opinions that you occasionally pretend to listen to.



Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> That could be the title of my autobiography.
> 
> One out of these two 9's agrees:
> 
> ...


I got 99 problems and an Air-King ain't one.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14202317


The flip side of Chris having sold 597 of his last batch of 600 watches is that things are apparently getting a little slow around the office now.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> The flip side of Chris having sold 597 of his last batch of 600 watches is that things are apparently getting a little slow around the office now.


So we have an epic WoT to look forward to?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Current state of the collection.
> Sold everything off with ds30 listed for sale.
> I would not mind getting a date Scorpene if my ds30 sells without giving it away like people on this forum are accustomed to.
> The only negative, I screwed up and ended up with all no dates.
> ...


That DS30 is nice.

A guy had one at our recent GTG here in Philly, the one Rusty attended.

Rusty got all moist in the shorts over it. Wouldn't shut up about it. Talked about it the whole way back to my house, and into the evening. He might be willing to do a trade with you, for something.

Unfortunately, it's a watch that looks a lot better in person than it does in pics, where it looks somewhat plain.

If I can offer some advice - list the specs.


----------



## nyonya (Jun 23, 2015)

Looking for some feedback on the NTH subs bracelet. I was generally never a bracelet guy until I got my AT2500 - the bracelet is comfortable and light, yet feels solid, with no sharp edges. Can anybody who has worn both the AT and a sub compare them? Or, failing that, compare the bracelet with other watches out there? I know I'm asking for something that's not really specific but I'm not exactly sure how to articulate my question. Appreciate any help!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> ...Still better than the 5-line Pelagos, though.


You know what's better than a 5-line Pelagos?

A 6-line Pelagos.



Coriolanus said:


> The flip side of Chris having sold 597 of his last batch of 600 watches is that things are apparently getting a little slow around the office now.


I will murder you, and I'll make it look like an accident.

We've got more watches coming later this month. I don't just mean the 25 Barracuda Browns we have yet to deliver, either. I'm talking about another 200 pieces coming this month, on top of those.

Meanwhile, my family leaves for England in less than 2 weeks.

We'll have another 200-ish watches coming in July, and another 200-ish targeted for August.

And - we're moving house in August.

I'm up to my eyeballs in a$$hole$ and alligators.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I will murder you, and I'll make it look like an accident.











Couple years ago, I retired from the Army. I started terminal leave on May 9th.

On May 10th, I drove from Fort Bragg down to Florida to start house hunting.

A week later I made an offer on a home and drove back.

My son was born on June 16th. On June 24th I drove back down to Florida to close on the house.

I left my truck here, flew back, rented a U-Haul, loaded it and drove back down again with half of our household goods. Then I flew straight back to NC.

On July 24th I loaded my wife, my five-week-old, the dog and the cat up in the car and drove back down to FL. On July 31th (the last day before I was officially retired from the Army), I started my new job here.

My point is, stop your eff'ing whining, ya pansy


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> You know what's better than a 5-line Pelagos?
> 
> A 6-line Pelagos.


I see your 6 and raise you 28. That 29th dial line I'm pretty sure breaks apart the fabric of space-time, that's why they didn't do it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

nyonya said:


> Looking for some feedback on the NTH subs bracelet. I was generally never a bracelet guy until I got my AT2500 - the bracelet is comfortable and light, yet feels solid, with no sharp edges. Can anybody who has worn both the AT and a sub compare them? Or, failing that, compare the bracelet with other watches out there? I know I'm asking for something that's not really specific but I'm not exactly sure how to articulate my question. Appreciate any help!


The nth bracelet is nothing like the butterfly clasp AT.

If you've been reading, you'll know the nth has a serviceable bracelet beloved by all purchasers except those who know how to type. Those of us who can type, also can browse google and find alternatives that please us in ways doc cannot or will not. The real oldest profession is pleasing oneself; the second oldest is pleasing others, and doc's still confusing the two.

If you told me you knew a guy who made a product people loved enough to spend time debating incremental improvements, id show you a guy who should stfu except to say "thanks, just spell my name right."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

hwa said:


> The nth bracelet is nothing like the butterfly clasp AT.
> 
> If you've been reading, you'll know the nth has a serviceable bracelet beloved by all purchasers except those who know how to type. Those of us who can type, also can browse google and find alternatives that please us in ways doc cannot or will not. The real oldest profession is pleasing oneself; the second oldest is pleasing others, and doc's still confusing the two.
> 
> ...


so good...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

nyonya said:


> Looking for some feedback on the NTH subs bracelet. I was generally never a bracelet guy until I got my AT2500 - the bracelet is comfortable and light, yet feels solid, with no sharp edges. Can anybody who has worn both the AT and a sub compare them? Or, failing that, compare the bracelet with other watches out there? I know I'm asking for something that's not really specific but I'm not exactly sure how to articulate my question. Appreciate any help!


I've had both (and about 50 others, many of which are long gone).

Short version: Both are nice, both are comfortable. I'm a bracelet guy.

Longer version: bracelet comfort is almost akin to alchemy and witchcraft. Each one feels different on different wrists. Case in point, the Omega SMP bracelet with no micro adjustments fits me EXACTLY. Others can't get it to fit at all, as the only option is half links. As to the NTH subs, they have a clasp with five micro-adjustment holes, and two half links. The AT I owned had a butterfly clasp and half links only. Advantage sub. The butterfly clasp is more slim than a diver's clasp, advantage AT. The new sub bracelet has very smooth and flexible links, more flexible to me than the AT: advantage sub. I like the way the sub bracelet feels on the wrist, YMMV.


----------



## nyonya (Jun 23, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> I've had both (and about 50 others, many of which are long gone).
> 
> Short version: Both are nice, both are comfortable. I'm a bracelet guy.
> 
> Longer version: bracelet comfort is almost akin to alchemy and witchcraft. Each one feels different on different wrists. Case in point, the Omega SMP bracelet with no micro adjustments fits me EXACTLY. Others can't get it to fit at all, as the only option is half links. As to the NTH subs, they have a clasp with five micro-adjustment holes, and two half links. The AT I owned had a butterfly clasp and half links only. Advantage sub. The butterfly clasp is more slim than a diver's clasp, advantage AT. The new sub bracelet has very smooth and flexible links, more flexible to me than the AT: advantage sub. I like the way the sub bracelet feels on the wrist, YMMV.


Thank you, that's very helpful! I'm on the hunt for a Skipjack - hoping the glossy black dial isn't too far off the AT's in its depth and reflectivity.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> View attachment 14202569
> 
> 
> Couple years ago, I retired from the Army. I started terminal leave on May 9th.
> ...


Well plaid.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

92gli said:


> I wish I knew why when I bought what *appeared* to be the same bracelet, the end links weren't even close to fitting the nth case.


I thought I had basically the same bracelet, too. Except with crappy "glide lock" in the clasp. Bought a "P210 Parnis 20mm bracelet" for an Invicta mod. It refuses to play nice with NTH lugs.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Current state of the collection.
> Sold everything off with ds30 listed for sale.
> I would not mind getting a date Scorpene if my ds30 sells without giving it away like people on this forum are accustomed to.
> The only negative, I screwed up and ended up with all no dates.
> ...


Wait! You can have a watch box that isn't filled with 50% more watches than pillows?!

What a nice thought. A box full of "what should I get to put in here?" instead of full of "I have GOT to sell some of these damn things."


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

<<<sees dozens of new posts in just a day and a half...must be watch news on new Nth models...runs in thread

realizes that most of the posts are about end links

sad face


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> Here's a discussion I can start, and not need to argue one way or the other - can we talk about the fit of the end-links vs lugs?
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> ...
> 
> Goddamit, boys - we're 3 pieces away from being sold out. 600 pieces, in a month. I literally - not figuratively - can't keep anything in stock.
> 
> ...


Love the watches. Love the circus. But, dang, didn't this start with an invitation to share opinions? It was a set up. We knew better but we fell for it anyway. 

Oh my God, its a mirage.
I'm tellin' y'all, it's


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

The Watcher said:


> <<<sees dozens of new posts in just a day and a half...must be watch news on new Nth models...runs in thread
> 
> realizes that most of the posts are about end links
> 
> sad face


Ya'll ain't from around here, are ya?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Love the watches. Love the circus. But, dang, didn't this start with an invitation to share opinions? It was a set up. We knew better but we fell for it anyway.
> 
> Oh my God, its a mirage.
> I'm tellin' y'all, it's
> ...


Uhm...

Gotcha?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Ya'll ain't from around here, are ya?


i have witnessed much, but can only observe...


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> You name the complaint about an NTH, I'll have you an image showing it worse on a watch costing 10 times more.
> 
> Handset alignment? I got you:
> 
> View attachment 14202367


Just to be clear, if I bought one of your watches and the hands were that misaligned, you'd fix it under warranty, right?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Necessary photograph.............









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Dagnabbit!! Dub post....

Have another photo......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> You know what's better than a 5-line Pelagos?
> 
> A 6-line Pelagos.
> 
> ...


Will there be any Barracuda vintage black no dates or Santa Cruz no dates in that bunch of 200 for June or July?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Ragl said:


> Dagnabbit!! Dub post....
> 
> Have another photo......
> 
> ...


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> I see your 6 and raise you 28. That 29th dial line I'm pretty sure breaks apart the fabric of space-time, that's why they didn't do it.
> 
> View attachment 14202573


That's a shame because it really really needs "earth" under Europe. Plenty of room...
Even with 29 lines I still want one. The coin edge bezel and crown are so fetch :-d


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

3WR said:


> What a nice thought. A box full of "what should I get to put in here?"


Bags of springbars dammit! Doc is on to something. You can order em every week and not go broke. You'll always have a delivery to look forward to. You can order sizes you don't need and then complain that the manufacturer should have made them 2mm smaller (hint... They probably DO). And they're super fun to look at with a loupe to search for finishing flaws
:-!


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

If Doc is gonna do anything to add to his bracelet options, I'd like to see him add a vintage-flavored, fine-weave, fairly thin mesh with slightly curved endlinks that flatter the case. And that's just a selfish desire, because I can't find one from another vendor.

It'd be kinda like what Vollmer does, but I'd still like something that's a bit finer-weave (read: vintage-y) than this, with brushed endlinks and a more conventional slide-sizing mechanism:










But, again, Doc can and will choose his own battles and headaches.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

hwa said:


> Pretty please, lets not give Ginault credit for its 1:1 ripoff of the rolex bracelet. Wear it if you want, but sheesh.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I dont even own one but thanks, pretty please thanks


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

This thread makes me feel like I'm sitting in the middle of a room, with open doors on opposite walls, and people keep popping up in those doors and shoot at the guy in the other door. Occasionally I consider getting involved, but then I reconsider, based on where I'm sitting...


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> This thread makes me feel like I'm sitting in the middle of a room, with open doors on opposite walls, and people keep popping up in those doors and shoot at the guy in the other door. Occasionally I consider getting involved, but then I reconsider, based on where I'm sitting...


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

I love this pairing...looks good and is super comfortable


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Just to be clear, if I bought one of your watches and the hands were that misaligned, you'd fix it under warranty, right?


Just to be clear -

1. The hands in that pic aren't set such that I can tell for sure exactly how mis-aligned they are, but I can tell you our QC standard is <3 minutes, meaning, when the hour hand is dead-on the hour, the minute hand isn't allowed to be more than 3 minutes before or after.

2. I'm getting technical, but we don't fix QC issues under warranty. The warranty covers mechanical malfunctions, not variations/imperfections which are visible on delivery. Visible blemishes and defects are covered under the returns policy.

3. If we missed something in QC - something which is outside our QC standards, not just some variation the customer thinks is a defect - and a customer brings it to our attention on delivery, we sort it out, usually with an immediate replacement, or, if the watch is worn, a return for repair, if and when appropriate. I'm always apologetic when we ship a watch with something we legitimately missed in QC.

4. If someone comes to us later, after they've been wearing the watch, bringing something to our attention which they feel needs to be addressed, we take it case by case. It may be a judgment call.

5. Re - judgment calls - they're judgment calls. Arranging a return of a watch that's well past delivery, and has been worn, in order to address something marginal, such as hands which are ever-so-slightly out of alignment, can turn into a nightmare scenario. The customer might claim we damaged it while it was in our care (we've seen those stories on the forum), it may be lost in shipping, we may have to deal with customs charges if we're crossing borders, we might inadvertently damage the dial while removing the hands, we may get dust trapped in the case, etc, etc, etc. We have to decide if the degree of variation justifies the risks involved.

We've got a pretty industry-standard returns policy, which states, in a nutshell - when you get the watch, inspect it before you alter its condition. If there's anything wrong, don't alter its condition. Let us know, right away, so we can address it. We give you 30 days to inspect - but once you alter the condition, the returns policy is void.

If we legitimately missed something in QC, something NOT within our QC standards, I want to get you a replacement, but we need that watch to be in as-delivered condition. If the complaint is about something that's actually within our QC standards, I want you to return it for a refund, but we need that watch to be in as-delivered condition.

Once you alter the condition, you've accepted its condition - you own the watch. Returning it for replacement or repair of what you may think is a defect is out of the question. We're now dealing with the warranty, which, as I said, only covers that which can't be seen on delivery - future mechanical malfunctions.

If the watch is worn, we may or may not agree to fix a visible blemish, regardless of whether or not it's within QC standards. That's the point of the returns policy. Why would you wear it if it's "defective"?

We may not have the parts we need. We may be dealing with damage caused after delivery. The complaint may fall under the heading of "acceptable variations". We may not be able to justify the risks based on the degree of what appears to be wrong. You don't have the entire lifetime of the watch to bring up issues which you see as defects, you've got the time between delivery and wearing it, that's all.

The policy isn't buried in a dense page of terms on the website. It's in the FAQ's. The request for customers to inspect goods on arrival, before altering their condition, is repeated on the card which comes with the watch, on the packing slip included from our warehouse, and in every one of the 8 emails and text messages we send out between shipping and delivery. We make 11 separate attempts to make sure customers know to inspect goods on arrival, to be sure they're satisfied with the quality, before accepting them.

Hope that all makes sense, and is clear.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

City74 said:


> Will there be any Barracuda vintage black no dates or Santa Cruz no dates in that bunch of 200 for June or July?


Barracudas, yes.

Santa Cruz, no.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

drwindsurf said:


> I love this pairing...looks good and is supper comfortable
> 
> View attachment 14203547


Supper comfortable? How 'bout breakfast or lunch?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I shouldn't have opened the door to discussion by asking about the end-links on the aftermarket bracelet.

Sorry if I was less than clear. I was just curious to know whether or not the end-links being recessed below the surface of the lugs bothered people, as I've seen comments in other threads, leading me to think it was a pet peeve for folks. 

I don't like to assume I always know what people think based on a limited number of comments I've read. Sometimes, it seems like a good idea to ask for opinions.

And then I'm reminded why I don't often ask for opinions.

I did not intend for anyone to think I was looking for input into potential changes to the product.

I'm not planning to change the clasp or the lugs, that's for sure. There's no way I'll be switching from the extended-center-section end-link to the hollow-center-section end-link. 

I wasn't looking for ideas about alternative or optional bracelets. 

I wasn't asking to be re-told that the definition of the raised center-section of the end-link isn't pronounced enough, in spite of geometry preventing it from being more, uhm, erect.

I wasn't exactly thinking of changing the end-links on the 40mm Subs' bracelet, and I'm not exactly thinking about it now, given the way the slightest indication (even the erroneous one) that I may be willing to change any one thing, ever so slightly, seems to open the floodgates of unsolicited product suggestions on all manner of things, related or not.

I was really just curious about people's feelings on that one little thing - the way the end-links sit below the lugs, not flush, on that aftermarket bracelet.

I shouldn't have asked, or, perhaps I should have prefaced my question with a wall-of-text, explaining the intent behind the question.

It's all good. I got the answer. People don't mind the lugs being recessed, contrary to my previous belief. That's good to know. I'll file it away for review if the subject comes up in a future product design debate.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Good God, 108 posts on *endlinks* since I last checked in YESTERDAY?












Hornet99 said:


> I'm preaching to the choir here, but I'm impressed, very impressed, with the NTH BVB. Whilst my Tudor has been away for a service this has been on my wrist pretty much every day, prefer it to the Oris 65 and it feels soooo damm comfortable on.
> 
> I put it on in the morning and forget its there and then check the time and that gilt goodness makes me stop and stare. Love the bezel and the vintage style and I think it looks better than Tudors effort with the BB58, they should have asked Doc about before they copied him badly .


This, for real. The BVB (and let's call it of-a-piece with the Carolina) is a show-stopping achievement. I met a guy this weekend who was rocking the new 39mm Rolex Explorer, and he was _ga-ga_ for my BVB. Kept staring at the dial saying "I've never seen anything like that!" Because he hadn't, because almost no one has - not on a modern watch.

It's a rare watch that can completely distract me from the entire reason I was looking at it -- to check the time. Instead, I check out the dial and entirely forget to notice the orientation of the hands. :-!


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> I wasn't exactly thinking of changing the end-links on the 40mm Subs' bracelet, and I'm not exactly thinking about it now, given the way the slightest indication (even the erroneous one) that I may be willing to change any one thing, ever so slightly, seems to open the floodgates of unsolicited product suggestions on all manner of things, related or not.


Oh, you get inundated with hypothetical product suggestions and related chatter even when not invited, so the past 24 hours of this thread seem like business as usual to me!

In truth, any suggestions I've floated past or present were not genuine requests for you to really make anything. Some of us don't visit other threads on this forum very often and are bored and wanna talk about a hypothetical Item X.


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

MikeyT said:


> Supper comfortable? How 'bout breakfast or lunch?


Lol...Thanks


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Oh, you get inundated with hypothetical product suggestions and related chatter even when not invited, so the past 24 hours of this thread seem like business as usual to me!
> 
> In truth, any suggestions I've floated past or present were not genuine requests for you to really make anything. Some of us don't visit other threads on this forum very often and are bored and wanna talk about a hypothetical Item X.


Understood.

My being here isn't always easy.

It often feels like I've been surrounded, not entirely by friendly faces, and it can be difficult to discern the open-ended questions from the veiled criticisms and the impassioned pleas. Some of what I've said in the past has been dubiously excerpted and turned against me. I've seen some absurdly unfair comments from some guys, who appear later pretending to be interested in what I'm doing.

I don't want to sound "woe is me". It would be awesome if everyone was able to be patient with me, and/or put themselves into my position - at the center of a large crowd of people, all asking questions or interjecting on various subjects, at all times, with a mix of positive and negative feedback, much of it endlessly repeated, 24/7/365. My ability to effectively (and diplomatically) respond is limited by being human.

I try to be mindful of what I say, and how I say it. It seems that brevity and clarity often run counter to each other. When I'm brief, I'm often misunderstood. When I'm not, well, walls-of-text have their reasons.

People seem to want and enjoy the interaction with the brand owner. The brand owner is human, and isn't always at his best, AND authentic, AND diplomatic. If people want the interaction, people will hopefully accept the good with the bad, and the occasionally ugly.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep 6 today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Seikogi said:


> View attachment 14203509


I wonder where they got that painting behind the bar?


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Mil6161 said:


> Deep 6 today
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+1










Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> I wonder where they got that painting behind the bar?


from döc-väils design studio

on another note, I believe many here enjoy talking about NTH subs (obviously) and share their ideas as we are passionate about the watch.

with doc - the owner here it might seem as the "crowd" demands something but I believe most are just passionate opinions.

At the end of the day it really is special to chat with the brand owner and raises the exclusivity of the product. Imagine ALS, JLC doing this stuff, yeah never. 
I remember reading that Sinn's Helmut Sinn shared a similar relationship with his customers - with his passion to create affordable tool watches (things changed a lot since then)
Though different times and not online as in 2019.

While I am not on knife forums, Spyderco's Sal Glesser also hangs out with knife buddies in the forum.

To me it makes the product a lot more special and exclusive compared to shady and unresponsive micros and the big fish players.

My everyday set-up


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Seikogi said:


> My everyday set-up
> View attachment 14203961


Oh. My. God! Where did you find it? Doesn't look like AliE stuff to me...


----------



## Champ18 (Jun 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> People seem to want and enjoy the interaction with the brand owner. The brand owner is human, and isn't always at his best, AND authentic, AND diplomatic. If people want the interaction, people will hopefully accept the good with the bad, and the occasionally ugly.


Commendable. Truly. 
If I were a brand owner I would limit my interaction to watch fairs and the like. People are nicer when face to face. Or, more accurately stated, tend to avoid being as much of an a$$hole when the possibility of getting punched in the face is present. Thats about where my threshold is. 
I may cringe at some of the things you say here from time to time, but I have a great deal of respect for the fact that you put yourself out there in the first place. Bravo.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I try to be mindful of what I say, and how I say it. It seems that brevity and clarity often run counter to each other. When I'm brief, I'm often misunderstood. When I'm not, well, walls-of-text have their reasons.
> 
> People seem to want and enjoy the interaction with the brand owner. The brand owner is human, and isn't always at his best, AND authentic, AND diplomatic. If people want the interaction, people will hopefully accept the good with the bad, and the occasionally ugly.


And passionate. You forgot passionate.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> Understood.
> 
> My being here isn't always easy.
> 
> ...


It doesnt matter if you make the perfect watch (which many argue you already do), we will always want to tinker. Its why we all love to do SKX builds...

Dont take it as a demand or insult from us. Like I said we like being part of a conversation and sometimes that gets away from us. Do what the business needs to do and file the rest away for a later date, if ever.

"If it aint broke dont fix it"

but also "preventative maintenance".....

Its just a juggle I guess


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Back to pics


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Champ18 said:


> Commendable. Truly.
> If I were a brand owner I would limit my interaction to watch fairs and the like. People are nicer when face to face. Or, more accurately stated, tend to avoid being as much of an a$$hole when the possibility of getting punched in the face is present. Thats about where my threshold is.
> I may cringe at some of the things you say here from time to time, but I have a great deal of respect for the fact that you put yourself out there in the first place. Bravo.


You think you cringe?

My *DAD* lurks in this thread.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Champ18 said:


> Commendable. Truly.
> If I were a brand owner I would limit my interaction to watch fairs and the like. People are nicer when face to face. Or, more accurately stated, tend to avoid being as much of an a$$hole when the possibility of getting punched in the face is present. Thats about where my threshold is.
> I may cringe at some of the things you say here from time to time, but I have a great deal of respect for the fact that you put yourself out there in the first place. Bravo.


I said the same thing abt people not get punched in the face enough anymore like two weeks ago lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> It doesnt matter if you make the perfect watch (which many argue you already do), we will always want to tinker. Its why we all love to do SKX builds...
> 
> Dont take it as a demand or insult from us. Like I said we like being part of a conversation and sometimes that gets away from us. Do what the business needs to do and file the rest away for a later date, if ever.
> 
> ...


I appreciate you all being here, interested enough to kill time with me, instead of doing whatever else.

Sometimes, it's a little overwhelming for me, particularly if I'm multi-tabbing, trying to keep up with discussion here, as well as in some group on Facebook, and also trying to work, respond to emails, etc.

It seems natural to judge each other by the worst we see. You could be an Eagle Scout, but if one of your friends posts a video of you falling down drunk at a party, that's the image people have of you, because no one posts pics of you helping an old lady cross the street.

But, we all know ourselves better than that. We know we're not the sum total of all our worst moments, like a bizarro-world greatest hits album.

I got a lot of character flaws. I don't know how to hide them. Y'all hopefully accept them if you can, and laugh at them more often than not, because they ain't going anywhere, and even I have to laugh at my own clear inadequacy sometimes.

Being the world's greatest lover helps balance the scales.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Don't know about being the greatest lover, but the black Odin impressed me enough that I got the blue one. 

You got to make more watches with sword hands, Doc. Just sayin'.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> This thread makes me feel like I'm sitting in the middle of a room, with open doors on opposite walls, and people keep popping up in those doors and shoot at the guy in the other door. Occasionally I consider getting involved, but then I reconsider, based on where I'm sitting...


Meh, Ginault is a trigger.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> I appreciate you all being here, interested enough to kill time with me, instead of doing whatever else.
> 
> Sometimes, it's a little overwhelming for me, particularly if I'm multi-tabbing, trying to keep up with discussion here, as well as in some group on Facebook, and also trying to work, respond to emails, etc.
> 
> ...


You have a lot of character my friend, that's not a flaw.

I got your 6.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


>


This watch inspires me.
If I ever win the lottery, I'm going to have someone make me a custom Explorer 1 with a 6-6-6 dial, then post it on the Rolex subforum asking it it's legit.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I appreciate you all being here, interested enough to kill time with me, instead of doing whatever else.
> 
> Sometimes, it's a little overwhelming for me, particularly if I'm multi-tabbing, trying to keep up with discussion here, as well as in some group on Facebook, and also trying to work, respond to emails, etc.
> 
> ...


Doc's periodic prickly responses are part of what makes this thread interesting, and why I keep hanging around even though I haven't actually _owned_ an NTH for a couple of years. I had one of the original run of 25 Nacken modern blues "before it was cool"  My personal taste leans more towards the Huldra and the Trident MK3 than what the subs look like as they are now, but I'm always curious to see what you guys are working on, and definitely curious how the XL models are going to turn out. Part of the reason why I like NTH as a brand is that you guys are so open with your process.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> It doesnt matter if you make the perfect watch (which many argue you already do), we will always want to tinker. Its why we all love to do SKX builds...


No kidding. What started off as a bit of a Ploprof homage became a fixed bezel field watch, and is now on its way back to being an Omega diver homage, this time a cross between the current SMP and Planet Ocean. I saw this picture and I thought, "damnit, now I have to do that."


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

It's an addiction



Davekaye90 said:


> PixlPutterMan said:
> 
> 
> > It doesnt matter if you make the perfect watch (which many argue you already do), we will always want to tinker. Its why we all love to do SKX builds...
> ...


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Seikogi said:


> ...
> My everyday set-up





Forever8895 said:


> Oh. My. God! Where did you find it? Doesn't look like AliE stuff to me...


Sorry Seikogi but if you've mentioned it before I must have missed it. What bracelet is that and do you have a pic of the clasp? Where? How much?

Excuse my manners...but your "sharp and erect" mid-endlink turns me on big time!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

3WR said:


> I thought I had basically the same bracelet, too. Except with crappy "glide lock" in the clasp. Bought a "P210 Parnis 20mm bracelet" for an Invicta mod. It refuses to play nice with NTH lugs.


Try bending the spring bar. Just put a little crimp in the middle...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)




----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

PixlPutterMan said:


> It's an addiction


Wow. Cool! I have a stalled out SKX mod with that dial and Transocean hands. I'm going to have to forget I saw your photo because I think I like it better than where mine is headed. I should chill with the subs for a while and finish the SKX.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Slinging drinks with the D6









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

hwa said:


> Try bending the spring bar. Just put a little crimp in the middle...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the tip. But the end link won't fit inside the lugs anywhere near well enough to even bother trying to get spring bars in place. I think a file or sandpaper would be in order if I were more enamored of the bracelet and set on getting it onto a sub.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Tanjecterly said:


> Don't know about being the greatest lover, but the black Odin impressed me enough that I got the blue one.
> 
> You got to make more watches with sword hands, Doc. Just sayin'.


Yesss, I agree! We need gilt dial sword hands odin or amphion

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Pitiful lack of self control. And the watches I told myself ahead of time could be moved on to make room for the new.

A few thoughts...

Nacken Vintage Blue 
- Wicked cool!

BVB 
- I half expected the box to glow like the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. Looking forward to some natural light to be fully wowed. 
- First sub I've handled w/ date. And I think the first time I've seen a counter clockwise rotating date wheel.

Nazario
- I didn't think I liked sunburst dials, but it works like crazy here. So much character and depth. Well done!
- I've wanted to like other Cali dials. I really do like this one. Proportions are great.

It actually IS nice when the crown has no date position. Crown action seems more solid, more mechanical for some reason. Longer throw with no detent to be felt mid pull? Like a good manual transmission snicking satisfyingly into gear.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Slant said:


> Sorry Seikogi but if you've mentioned it before I must have missed it. What bracelet is that and do you have a pic of the clasp? Where? How much?
> 
> Excuse my manners...but your "sharp and erect" mid-endlink turns me on big time!


Its a 5-digit sub bracelet, the one with the cheapo clasp + diver's extension + SEL endlinks. A friend of mine loves Rolex and I always mentioned the bracelet to him. When I had the opportunity - I jumped on it 

Fit was almost perfect, added a thin duct tape layer on the underside lip and it doesn't have any play whatsoever. Links are a tad thicker and I prefer the NTH link thickness overall.

The endlink is ... just perfect imo


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Yesss, I agree! We need gilt dial sword hands odin or amphion
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


+1

I would love to see a gilt sunburst blue Amphion 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Yesss, I agree! We need gilt dial sword hands odin or amphion
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


Nazario gilt, Nacken gilt, Skipjack gilt...

Let's make gilt dial great again!


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Seikogi said:


> Its a 5-digit sub bracelet, the one with the cheapo clasp + diver's extension + SEL endlinks. A friend of mine loves Rolex and I always mentioned the bracelet to him. When I had the opportunity - I jumped on it
> 
> Fit was almost perfect, added a thin duct tape layer on the underside lip and it doesn't have any play whatsoever. Links are a tad thicker and I prefer the NTH link thickness overall.
> 
> The endlink is ... just perfect imo


I knew that it was definitely expensive stuff

This makes me think, will Ginault bracelet fit into the Subs case  Can anyone give a try?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Gilt-gasm


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Davekaye90 said:


> No kidding. What started off as a bit of a Ploprof homage became a fixed bezel field watch, and is now on its way back to being an Omega diver homage, this time a cross between the current SMP and Planet Ocean. I saw this picture and I thought, "damnit, now I have to do that."
> 
> View attachment 14204795


I love this!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

hwa said:


> Try bending the spring bar. Just put a little crimp in the middle...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Tried that. Still wasn't even close on one side. The other side clicked in but I could pull the bracelet off with only moderate force.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Sooo... How bout that new Nazario?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Mikefable said:


> I love this!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I had the same reaction when I stumbled across it. I was getting bored with my fixed bezel version and was actually thinking of just selling it, but this gave me the idea to re-do the watch again. That's one thing you've just gotta love about the SKX despite its soviet tractor like movement and generally crappy finishing - the mod potential is endless. I suppose that's a bit of a double edged sword if you're a watch fanatic though, because the "wouldn't it be cool if" thoughts don't stop.

That's why these photos of the BVB with Seiko bezel inserts are so dangerous...for the health of my wallet. I have to admit there's a part of me that wants to buy a BVB and put a ceramic bezel insert on it just to annoy Doc.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Forever8895 said:


> I knew that it was definitely expensive stuff
> 
> This makes me think, will Ginault bracelet fit into the Subs case  Can anyone give a try?


The Rolex fits perfectly, so yeah, Ginault fits.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

92gli said:


> Tried that. Still wasn't even close on one side. The other side clicked in but I could pull the bracelet off with only moderate force.


Are we talking about a WendyBeiShop/Carlywet bracelet? If so, it will definitely fit, you just need tremendous perseverance. I've had a couple. But the new Subs bracelet is definitely so much better and more comfortable. No amount of +2mm taper or end-link infatuation can get me over the huge comfort gap between the two.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Sooo... How bout that new Nazario?


You mean this?


__
http://instagr.am/p/ByVLX3OFG7L/


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'm up to my eyeballs in a$$hole$ and alligators.


Lies. There are no gators in Wayne.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Sooo... How bout that new Nazario?


We're calling it the Nazario Ghost, because of the ghost printing of logo and depth-text (like on the Phantom), and the "skeleton" markers.

























Apparently it's hard to really capture the white-framed handset and ghost-printing in the 3D illustrations.

John starts pre-orders at midnight (EDT GMT-4) tomorrow.

If you want one, you may want to email him with "Nazario Ghost" in the subject line - john AT watchgauge DOT com.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Pretty... Not my style, but I imagine it will be a near-instant sell-out on the pre-orders.

Odd-guy out -- the two watches I actually have an eye on, one of them is still in stock from a few deliveries ago, and one is part of the new batch and still available. Starting to recognize that not everyone has the same taste in watches that I do...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Interesting but no date for me is no bueno.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

docvail said:


> We're calling it the Nazario Ghost, because of the ghost printing of logo and depth-text (like on the Phantom), and the "skeleton" markers.
> 
> View attachment 14206595
> 
> ...


At first I thought it was sandwich dial based on the teaser yesterday. But I don't think it's possible to have sandwich dial inside the Subs case, due to its thinness

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> At first I thought it was sandwich dial based on the teaser yesterday. But I don't think it's possible to have sandwich dial inside the Subs case, due to its thinness
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In theory, we could drop the crown by 0.4mm, and maybe deep-dish the caseback, but otherwise, no, there isn't room in the case to double the dial thickness.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> We're calling it the Nazario Ghost, because of the ghost printing of logo and depth-text (like on the Phantom), and the "skeleton" markers.
> 
> View attachment 14206595
> 
> ...


Would ya look at those end links 

Watch looks sick man, SICK


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

damn! That looks dope!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Next episode of Doc's House Calls is up.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Another COSC regulated NTH.
Gained 11 seconds over 8 days.










Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Hopefully this meets the stringent comment criterion as laid out in the video: Great interview. Really enjoyable.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Hopefully this meets the stringent comment criterion as laid out in the video: Great interview. Really enjoyable.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 14207395
> 
> 
> View attachment 14207399


Snackin' on the Nacken 

Doc Savage


----------



## green_pea (May 10, 2016)

Odin


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> We're calling it the Nazario Ghost, because of the ghost printing of logo and depth-text (like on the Phantom), and the "skeleton" markers.
> 
> View attachment 14206595
> 
> ...


WOW!

Yes, I did quote it just so I can look at it more... Bloody lovely Doc.

Sent from my iPhone using a Spirograph and plenty of lemons


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

My black Odin arrived Monday and after sizing the bracelet I’ve been wearing it ever since. After not wearing a watch for over 20 years, I’m relatively new to my watch obsession, with a limited frame of reference to my Seiko SNZG13J and rebuilt/upgraded '98 SKX009, a few luxury brands I've handled here and there and the diminutive vintage pieces down at the local pawnshop. 

First impression:

I’m having a hard time processing how dainty the Sub is compared to the SKX I’ve been wearing daily for well over a year. I’m a large person- 6’5” and a lean 225 lb.- one would think a "full size dive watch" would be work fine for me, but I surf multiple times a week, and have been bothered by the chunkiness of the SKX, which protrudes uncomfortably under my wetsuit sleeve (over the sleeve is a bad choice for surfing). Likewise, that bulkiness doesn’t always transition comfortably to the office, either. Likewise, as a fan of mid-century style (Paul Newman, Steve McQueen, Sean Connery) + 42mm watches just seem gauche to me. So this had brought me to the realization that a more traditional/vintage sized case is best for my preferences and needs. I’ve thought a 14060 Submariner would be the ultimate daily for me, but at this stage in my life, $7k on a +/- 15 year old watch is irresponsible and inconceivable. The Black Bay 58 is cool, but hard to come by and equally out of reach. I, like so many here, have an affinity for the vintage aesthetic and design and gravitate to the mil-spec sub style diver, but in researching the homage iterations out there (Steinhart, Squale, etc.) they all wear at least as large and/or thick as the SKX, making such a move for aesthetics only. And an actual vintage piece- well obviously not even a real option. Nth came onto my radar last year because of TGV, and only recently did I really give the Subs a long hard look.

That all being said, I wasn’t prepared for how the Nth Sub’s dimensions would feel- which is delicate and genteel, by comparison. The 40mm is perfect for my 7.125” wrist and due to the remarkable overall thinness, both in the case and the wafer like bezel, it sits completely flush, nestling into the concave between my ulna and radius. Its presence is very subtle. I forget its there (not true of the SKX). The face is not noticeably smaller than my 42mm SZNG, but wears so much more svelte.

Also, the bracelet, in addition to being maximally articulating, has noticeably thinner links and clasp than the after-market strap code I have on the SKX, and it drapes more like a fabric which allows for a very snug fit without compromising comfort (I wear my watch above my wrist bone, and like it to stay put). This is one of those scenarios when less is so, so much more. As for the nontroversy about the end links, if you look closely, the hinge point of the first link is exactly within the terminus of the lugs- it couldn't be more dead on. The extension of the end link and the recess of the lug holes accomplish this, and I think one must be geometrically challenged to not see the engineering solution employed to arrive at this ideal scenario. 

The smooth sweep of the hi-beat Miyota is mesmerizing as I’m accustomed to the slightly hitchier 7S26 amd NH35. So far I'm +3 seconds a day. Remarkable!

Gosh, I love sword hands. And the Odin name. (I love Submarine history AND Norse mythology)

The design has its own aesthetic. Not a direct homage, but rather a separate offering that channels the spirit of vintage military time pieces. It’s not trying to be a Rolex or Omega reproduction, its taking cues from what makes them so appealing and recapitulates it into a unique, modern package. The Odin's call back to the Seamaster 300 is masculine and aggressive, yet understated and esoteric in a sea of Submariner styled dials. 

Knowing that the robustness of this piece exceeds my SKX, while the feel is that of a diminutive vintage diver, is just hard to fathom. The $625 was not easy for me to bear (I can afford it, wanted to spend it, but I don’t like parting with it), but when you consider what you get, it’s pretty remarkable; almost everything about the Sub is superior to that near mint $7k Rolex 14060 I handled recently, while maintaining what I loved about it. (The 14060 bezel was a little sloppy, bracelet with stamped steel clasp and jangly, a full mm thicker, and when you consider the cost to service it is more than purchase price of the NTH Sub... which has similar case design, sapphire, depth rating, drilled lugs, simple design aesthetic, etc. )

My only issue is there is a little more back play in the bezel than I was hoping for. In the reviews I’ve watched/read, its been stated there's “no back play” and “a little back play”. Mine fell into the later. There’s definitely a little slop after it clicks into place. I wish it wasn't so, but its pretty minimal and well within QC, I'm sure. 

All in all, I'm super stoked.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Yes, the Odin is better than, for example, the Helson SM300 or the Borealis Estoril IMO.


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

Tanjecterly said:


> Yes, the Odin is better than, for example, the Helson SM300 or the Borealis Estoril IMO.


And I actually really don't like the Omega twisted lug design.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Tanjecterly said:


> Yes, the Odin is better than, for example, the Helson SM300 or the Borealis Estoril IMO.


Word

Doc Savage


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Great write up but you are missing a pic.









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Great write up but you are missing a pic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. What strap is that?!


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



gsurf said:


> Thanks. What strap is that?!


Erika's Originals

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

gsurf said:


> All in all, I'm super stoked.


Sounds like it, congrats! If you feel like switching things up every now and then, you may want to look at a Glycine Combat Sub if you haven't already. I don't have the wrist size to accommodate its L2L length, but on a 7"+ it should be fine. It can't match the WR of the NTH, but it's stupid thin - 10.6mm. Sadly, by far the best looking variant of the many that they've made is the unobtanium KMZiZ LE version.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Thanks, mods.


----------



## BC Wave (May 20, 2019)

gsurf said:


> My black Odin arrived Monday and after sizing the bracelet I've been wearing it ever since. After not wearing a watch for over 20 years, I'm relatively new to my watch obsession, with a limited frame of reference to my Seiko SNZG13J and rebuilt/upgraded '98 SKX009, a few luxury brands I've handled here and there and the diminutive vintage pieces down at the local pawnshop.
> 
> First impression:
> 
> ...


Great write-up. You hit on many of the same points that are leading me to NTH. Thanks for capturing them so eloquently.


----------



## BC Wave (May 20, 2019)

double post


----------



## Realize (May 23, 2019)

hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know this is late to the party, but that is Freaking gorgeous! Where did you source the bezel? Were the alterations difficult?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Bluquoise Devil soaking up the Sun..









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Barracudas, yes.
> 
> Santa Cruz, no.


Are any Barracudas going the NTH site or just retailers?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Realize said:


> I know this is late to the party, but that is Freaking gorgeous! Where did you source the bezel? Were the alterations difficult?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I think it's an Alpha case.

@hwa may come along to correct me.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Great write up but you are missing a pic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I must know more about that strap. RIGHT MEOW!!!!!


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> Sounds like it, congrats! If you feel like switching things up every now and then, you may want to look at a Glycine Combat Sub if you haven't already. I don't have the wrist size to accommodate its L2L length, but on a 7"+ it should be fine. It can't match the WR of the NTH, but it's stupid thin - 10.6mm. Sadly, by far the best looking variant of the many that they've made is the unobtanium KMZiZ LE version.
> 
> View attachment 14208375


Love those but hate the non tapering bracelets


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

hwa said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Woah whats going on here


----------



## Realize (May 23, 2019)

docvail said:


> I think it's an Alpha case.
> 
> @hwa may come along to correct me.


Needless to say, but tons of respect. I'm in the process of saving up to get one of your NTHs, but whilst I save, I have the pleasure of deciding on which model.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

basso4735 said:


> Are any Barracudas going the NTH site or just retailers?


Doubtful. I expect the retailers will take all of them, given the way the first 100 flew off the shelves.

Barracuda Brown is for sale now. None on the NTH website, all from our retailers. We'll be delivering them before the end of the month.

Nazario Ghost available for pre-order at Watch Gauge. Delivery next month.

Just 2 NTH Subs (and 1 lonely DevilRay in orange) left available on the NTH website.

Limited stock of the Subs and the DevilRay/DevilFox available from our retailers, plus that one last Antilles at Serious Watches.

Don't forget - Subs' prices going up $25 across the board next Friday, the 14th.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> Don't forget - Subs' prices going up $25 across the board next Friday, the 14th.


Thanks Obama

I kid, but I am interested to hear if the "tariff war" is effecting the micro world


----------



## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> Don't forget - Subs' prices going up $25 across the board next Friday, the 14th.


Will the new stock of subs for June be in before or after the price hike?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Love those but hate the non tapering bracelets


The Glycine bracelet doesn't taper?

You sure?

I had one, but it's been a while. I feel like I would remember if they didn't taper.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

City74 said:


> Will the new stock of subs for June be in before or after the price hike?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


After.


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Great write up but you are missing a pic.


I'll upload one soon...


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> The Glycine bracelet doesn't taper?
> 
> You sure?
> 
> I had one, but it's been a while. I feel like I would remember if they didn't taper.


I guess its possible it was a 22 to 20 taper, but my other (snobby) issue is I hate 22m lugs on sub 44mm watches


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

Davekaye90 said:


> Sounds like it, congrats! If you feel like switching things up every now and then, you may want to look at a Glycine Combat Sub if you haven't already. I don't have the wrist size to accommodate its L2L length, but on a 7"+ it should be fine. It can't match the WR of the NTH, but it's stupid thin - 10.6mm. Sadly, by far the best looking variant of the many that they've made is the unobtanium KMZiZ LE version.


I did spend a little time looking at them- not a fan of the case shape, the handsets, or any of the dial variations, especially the numbered ones (although, I do like the bronze variants and the Airman). And I'm pretty skeptical about how Swiss Made they still are since selling to Invicta... For me it came down to the NTH, the Squale Militaire or waiting a while longer and getting a Sinn 556i. The Squale had too many negatives for me, the Sinn- well, that's still going to happen (shhh- don't tell my wife). Also, knowing the intention and detail Doc put into the design of these which really overlaps my own interests and the fact that the profits go to him and his family, not some obscure corporation, made the decision more obvious for me. I'm not someone who is going to be collecting and flipping lots of watches. I tend to buy things based on research for purposeful long term use.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



PixlPutterMan said:


> I must know more about that strap. RIGHT MEOW!!!!!


https://erikasoriginals.com/mn-straps/us-swcc.php

I have one. I like it. I don't know if enough to justify the premium price though.










(photo repost I assume)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Thanks Obama
> 
> I kid, but I am interested to hear if the "tariff war" is effecting the micro world


I'll let you know for sure later. I have to put in a call to FedEx to see if the customs bill I just received is correct.

If it is, then, yes.

See the Event Horizon 2020 thread I started. I was anticipating movement costs going up as Swatch lowers supply of ETA. We're seeing that now.

I don't think there's been much effect of the tariffs on watches, but I recently saw a peer mention the effect on boxes, and if the bill I just got is correct, it's a huge effect, one I was not anticipating. I think my box costs, which were already 25% higher than five years ago, just went up another 50%.

We've made a number of quality improvements in the product over the last year or two, most of which, we've never bothered to mention publicly. But those improvements all have their incremental cost increases, and they've been adding up to the point I can't simply absorb them any more. I'll probably draft a blog post about it all soon.

In that Event Horizon thread, I think I predicted some turmoil in the market/industry leading up to and following 2020. I think we're starting to see it accelerate. I'm hearing and seeing more evidence of widespread problems in the industry.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I guess its possible it was a 22 to 20 taper, but my other (snobby) issue is I hate 22m lugs on sub 44mm watches


Lug width is almost invariably 1/2 of diameter, but people seem to hate odd-number lug widths.

40mm case gets you 20mm lugs. 44mm case, 22mm lugs.

What do you do with a 42 case?

20mm lugs? Makes the case look fat. 22mm lugs? Makes it look a bit square. 21mm lugs? People cry bloody murder.

Case design. More to it than people realize.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> Lug width is almost invariably 1/2 of diameter, but people seem to hate odd-number lug widths.
> 
> 40mm case gets you 20mm lugs. 44mm case, 22mm lugs.
> 
> ...


42/20 is my favorite. MM300 might be the best proportioned watch I ever saw.

But yes, that ABSOLUTELY highlights the difficulty and brilliance that goes into case design


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

I agree with people complaining about 21mm lug widths, as I think it’s purely due to how common it is to own many 20mm and 22mm straps.

However, I have worn a 20mm leather band on a 21mm lug width and it didn’t bother me at all. It’s just a minor annoyance. I did end up selling that watch.

I could see how in design, proportions are saying keep it 21mm and leave it on the factory bracelet. But consumers want the ability to change the look, feel on wrist or own a favorite strap they like to wear.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I have a Borealis Bullshark. I like the watch but hate the 22mm non tapering bracelet. And I’m a bracelet guy. I basically just don’t wear it anymore. 20/16 is my favorite but 20/18 is still good. I like the NTH bracelet on my Nazario, it’s the older style but comfortable to me. Guess I’ll be able to compare it with the newer when I decide which sub I want.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I have a Borealis Bullshark. I like the watch but hate the 22mm non tapering bracelet. And I’m a bracelet guy. I basically just don’t wear it anymore. 20/16 is my favorite but 20/18 is still good. I like the NTH bracelet on my Nazario, it’s the older style but comfortable to me. Guess I’ll be able to compare it with the newer when I decide which sub I want.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



PixlPutterMan said:


> I must know more about that strap. RIGHT MEOW!!!!!


https://erikasoriginals.com/mn-straps/us-swcc.php

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

Nikita70 said:


> I have a Borealis Bullshark. I like the watch but hate the 22mm non tapering bracelet. And I'm a bracelet guy. I basically just don't wear it anymore. 20/16 is my favorite but 20/18 is still good. I like the NTH bracelet on my Nazario, it's the older style but comfortable to me. Guess I'll be able to compare it with the newer when I decide which sub I want.


The new sub bracelet is really, really nice. I kind of expected it to be more like my Strapcode SKX oyster which is 22/18 (from pictures, I thought the clasps were the same- they are not). It is far more refined and comfortable.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> I'll let you know for sure later. I have to put in a call to FedEx to see if the customs bill I just received is correct.
> 
> If it is, then, yes.


Just got done talking to FedEx.

Houston, we have some problems.

I'd never bothered to dig into my customs bills before yesterday, but because of the news, people have been asking about this, and I figured I ought to know for sure what I'm actually paying. The bill I got yesterday made me happy I did.

So...there's two parts to the import tariff thing, apparently...

1. There's a specific customs duty rate applied to products based on what they are, and what they're made of. That can range from "nothing at all" to "a whole helluva lot". It really varies.

2. Whatever that rate is, there's an additional rate applied based on specific countries products are coming from. With China, it was apparently 10% as of last fall, but it's now 25% (of declared value).

My eyes about popped out when I got my bill yesterday. The customs costs were 45% of declared value, effectively triple what I figured the per-box costs I paid in September were.

Part of that was the increase from 10% to 25% on goods coming from China. That part is correct, apparently, and inescapable.

The other part was a difference in the code they used for the product, which effectively increased the base rate 10x.

I've filed a dispute with FedEx, which included a copy of my previous "Entry Summary" from September of last year. I assume they'll correct the mistake, and my invoice will be adjusted accordingly.

If it isn't adjusted, then my customs costs on boxes just about quadrupled, from 12% to 45%.

Even if it is adjusted, my costs still more than doubled, from 12% to 27%.

It's boxes. They're not my biggest cost component. But, the little things start to add up. Pretty soon, it's real money.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

On the upside, new codes means that the new boxes are probably some super-special animal skin paper with rare earth salts mixed into the paints. Cool!


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> On the upside, new codes means that the new boxes are probably some super-special animal skin paper with rare earth salts mixed into the paints. Cool!


This was my first thought, too. Naturally.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

You can send mine in a zip lock bag if that helps...


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I've noticed a lot of subs on elastic in this thread recently, so here's a rarely seen Amphion Vintage.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Realize said:


> I know this is late to the party, but that is Freaking gorgeous! Where did you source the bezel? Were the alterations difficult?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

Random inquiry Doc.

If i'm looking for the watch releases you've (Nth) have done by year, is that somewhere? I'm not sure what i want, but i'm looking for something released in 2016.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> Random inquiry Doc.
> 
> If i'm looking for the watch releases you've (Nth) have done by year, is that somewhere? I'm not sure what i want, but i'm looking for something released in 2016.


You're asking if our website doubles as a neatly-indexed, searchable archive of everything we've ever produced, with all sorts of search filters, including year of production?

Uhm...no. It doesn't do that.

Describe what you're looking for. I'm a good guesser.


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

After work surf check.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> You're asking if our website doubles as a neatly-indexed, searchable archive of everything we've ever produced, with all sorts of search filters, including year of production?
> 
> Uhm...no. It doesn't do that.
> 
> Describe what you're looking for. I'm a good guesser.


I'm guessing blurple orthos

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Here's a not-really-all-that-funny story about something that's been freaking me out the last few days.

Warning - this isn't a rant. It will probably be kind of long. Feel free to skip over it. Don't complain about the wall-o-text if you decide to read it...

So...if you've been following along, you know the Barracuda Brown arrived with the wrong color inserts. The plating vendor used the darker, more reddish brown from the Holland, instead of the lighter, more neutral brown we specified.

Additionally, we rejected some other bezel inserts in QC, for various reasons. Seemed like we found a higher-than-expected number of small issues with the inserts on the Barracuda Vintage Black. Small stuff, but...noticeable enough, like bubbling in the red paint, or what looked like smears in the finishing. 

Have I mentioned watchmaker Dan is a mechanical genius? No? I'm sure I have. He's a mechanical genius. There's nothing mechanical he can't figure out. He's fixed stuff other watchmakers said was unfixable. He used to design machines for science experiments at Princeton. He's better than MacGuyver.

He figured out that under the bezel, the ledge of the case which holds the bezel onto the case has something of a severe edge. In theory, you could pry the bezel assembly (not just the insert, but the entire assembly - steel ring and all) off the case, like you do Seiko bezels, but there was a high likelihood of that warping the ring or damaging the case, and so, we didn't want to do that.

How do we replace bezel inserts, then?

Easy. Dan figured out he could just heat the bezel insert, get an x-acto knife around the inner edge, swipe it around while levering it up, and pop one out. Bezel insert swaps became a very easy, very low-risk job, that takes 5 minutes.

Until this most recent delivery.

All of a sudden, they're a b1tch to get out.

Dan looks at one of the replacement inserts they sent us, and notices they increased the adhesive by about 50%. They went from easy to get out to impossible to get out, just like that.

What to do now, if we can't pop the bezel ring off without risking destroying the case?

Well...Dan has to disassemble the entire watch, pop the crystal out of the case, and push the insert out from the under-side, where the crystal used to be. Then, replace the insert, pop the crystal back in, and re-assemble the whole watch.

What was a 5 minute job is now a 1 hour job. 

Plus...now we need to re-pressure test each one, to make sure he re-installed the crystal correctly, the seals are still good, etc.

Go online and look for pressure testers. The el-cheapo ones that go to 6 ATM can be had for $100-$200. But we (well, I) wanted better. I whipped out the gold card and popped for one of the big-boy, really good pressure-testers, and had it shipped to Dan. 

So Dan gets the pressure-tester, and...no WR. Nothing. Every watch he tests fails. And not at high ATM, either. Like, less than 3 ATM. He's seeing air bubbles at really low, stupid-low ATM.

We checked, double-checked, then re-checked the instructions. We looked at videos on YouTube. Dan's a mechanical genius. There's no way he could be doing it wrong. 

We talked about it - maybe the videos on YT are wrong. How can that be? Is it possible the entire industry is doing it wrong? It can't be. Our heads were starting to hurt. My stomach churned. Dan was beside himself.

Maybe my guys in HK are BS'ing me, and all that high-tech, expensive testing equipment is just for show. But...I've sold thousands of watches. I know customers are taking them under water. I have some who are scuba divers, and send me pics. We've only ever had one single instance of water intrusion, and in that one instance, we found that the caseback was loose.

Have I been shipping watches with no WR at all, and no one's noticed? How can that be? I can't believe this. I've been going around on the internet, saying we test every case, before and after assembly. This is a nightmare. I want to crawl under my desk and hide, if not die. Just kill me now. Put "He sucked, and so did his watches" on my tombstone.

So I ask Dan to shoot a video, and send it to me, so I can see it with my own eyes. 

So he does. 

And then I see it.

There was air trapped under the bezel insert. That's where the bubbles were coming from. As soon as that air was gone, no more bubbles. Dan tested a case with no movement in it. He waited until the bubbles stopped, then he pulled it out to open it up - bone dry inside.

Okay...Dan's a MECHANICAL genius. 

Fluid dynamics maybe aren't his thing.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I was watching this video today and around 18th minute he tests for WP and actually talks about the trapped air around bezel and insert.






Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I was watching this video today and around 18th minute he tests for WP and actually talks about the trapped air around bezel and insert.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You'd think all the videos online would have a warning in them.

"Warning - if the watch being tested has an external rotating bezel, you may see bubbles of air coming from it, due to air being trapped under it. Don't freak out."

How hard is that???

To be fair, and in Dan's defense - the adhesive on our inserts is around the outer perimeter. Apparently, that creates an air-tight seal, because all the air bubbles were coming out on the inner perimeter, making it look like we had a leak around the crystal.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Doc, I have a question on the bezel pip for the BVB regarding the the difference in batches. The ▼ below the pip seems marginally smaller in the recent batch. I am nick picking... just want to check if this is intentionally?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> Doc, I have a question on the bezel pip for the BVB regarding the the difference in batches. The ▼ below the pip seems marginally smaller in the recent batch. I am nick picking... just want to check if this is intentionally?


It isn't.

You're imagining it.

They're all stamped with the same tooling.


----------



## Watchoss (Apr 6, 2019)

I love this watch. As long as I think I'm not going to beat it to hell, I'm wearing it... So, it's getting beat to hell but, still looks great!


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Somewhat of an ignorant question so I apologize. 

All of the 300m watches I have owned had either a helium escape or were monoblock cases with a thread down crystal. How does NTH (especially so thin) achieve 300m with out these features?

I always thought you needed one of those two features.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

... cerb









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

gsurf said:


> I did spend a little time looking at them- not a fan of the case shape, the handsets, or any of the dial variations, especially the numbered ones (although, I do like the bronze variants and the Airman). And I'm pretty skeptical about how Swiss Made they still are since selling to Invicta... For me it came down to the NTH, the Squale Militaire or waiting a while longer and getting a Sinn 556i. The Squale had too many negatives for me, the Sinn- well, that's still going to happen (shhh- don't tell my wife). Also, knowing the intention and detail Doc put into the design of these which really overlaps my own interests and the fact that the profits go to him and his family, not some obscure corporation, made the decision more obvious for me. I'm not someone who is going to be collecting and flipping lots of watches. I tend to buy things based on research for purposeful long term use.


Fair. I'm not a huge fan of most of the plain Jane versions either. I do kind of like the Goldeneye, and might buy one if it would fit my wrist. The KMZiZ is also cool in a very tool watch sort of way, but the last time I saw one of those actually go up for sale was a few years ago, before it was really on my radar. They only made 50, so it's not exactly common.

I've never really understood why some people look down on micros as not "real" or "serious" watches as opposed to those made by corporations like Glycine or Oris or Seiko. It's not like NTH watches are made in Doc's garage. The after sale support also seems to generally be _FAR_ better with a micro than a big watch company, both in my own experience, and from what I've heard from others.

Me: The Huldra I bought used from another guy, a watch that went out of production a couple of years ago, has a tiny, barely visible scratch on the crystal.

Chip: Here's a new one, on the house.

I wouldn't even bother trying to contact Seiko about something like that.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

I didn’t realize that the “correct” way to go Bond was 2mm smaller than the lugs. I’m kinda liking it.


----------



## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Question: does the Gen1 bracelet take a slightly thicker springbar? The ones I have now seem to give a lot of wiggle room.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Somewhat of an ignorant question so I apologize.
> 
> All of the 300m watches I have owned had either a helium escape or were monoblock cases with a thread down crystal. How does NTH (especially so thin) achieve 300m with out these features?
> 
> I always thought you needed one of those two features.


1. Science.

2. Helium escape valves don't add to WR. They're to release helium from inside the case during decompression, while inside a decompression chamber, usually associated with dives deeper than 300m. They're not strictly necessary. The 500m WR DevilRay also didn't have an HEV.

3. Monoblock cases, thread down crystals - just different ways of skinning the cat. See 1 - Science. We can achieve WR without these things, through engineering, and proper use of basic materials.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

tim_herremans said:


> I agree with people complaining about 21mm lug widths, as I think it's purely due to how common it is to own many 20mm and 22mm straps.
> 
> However, I have worn a 20mm leather band on a 21mm lug width and it didn't bother me at all. It's just a minor annoyance. I did end up selling that watch.
> 
> ...


If you're going to do 21, in my opinion you might as well just do integrated lugs and say screw it, take the bracelet or buy another watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RotorRonin said:


> Question: does the Gen1 bracelet take a slightly thicker springbar? The ones I have now seem to give a lot of wiggle room.


I have no idea.

I don't know some things, because I don't feel like I need to.

That's one of those things.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> It isn't.
> 
> You're imagining it.
> 
> They're all stamped with the same tooling.


I am probably yes. HAHAHA


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Somewhat of an ignorant question so I apologize.
> 
> All of the 300m watches I have owned had either a helium escape or were monoblock cases with a thread down crystal. How does NTH (especially so thin) achieve 300m with out these features?
> 
> I always thought you needed one of those two features.


It's actually pretty routine. The Borealis Portus Cale for example is also 30ATM rated, very similar thickness as the NTH Sub, no monoblock case, no HEV, which as Doc already noted makes no difference to WR. It's for saturation diving. Plenty of 50ATM and even 60ATM watches don't have them. Chris Ward opted to put one on their 100ATM rated Trident, but the regular 60ATM versions don't have it. I've always thought the one on the SMP is silly. It makes the watch look like it has a horn growing out of its head, and it's completely and utterly unnecessary.

A watch like the Marine Master is massively overbuilt for its rated depth. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually passed WR testing at triple that.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Watchoss said:


> I love this watch. As long as I think I'm not going to beat it to hell, I'm wearing it... So, it's getting beat to hell but, still looks great!


Nice Pro4-X. You have about double the miles I do and my 2012 has been roundtrip East Coast to California and back twice. Don't have the map system in a '12 but do have the 6-speed stick.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I didn't realize that the "correct" way to go Bond was 2mm smaller than the lugs. I'm kinda liking it.


I suspect it's actually 1.5mm. If you can find one!









Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Such a photogenic watch.









Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I like gooooold.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> It's actually pretty routine. The Borealis Portus Cale for example is also 30ATM rated, very similar thickness as the NTH Sub, no monoblock case, no HEV, which as Doc already noted makes no difference to WR. It's for saturation diving. Plenty of 50ATM and even 60ATM watches don't have them. Chris Ward opted to put one on their 100ATM rated Trident, but the regular 60ATM versions don't have it. I've always thought the one on the SMP is silly. It makes the watch look like it has a horn growing out of its head, and it's completely and utterly unnecessary.
> 
> A watch like the Marine Master is massively overbuilt for its rated depth. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually passed WR testing at triple that.


I guess I assumed anytime you were below 200m you were in a saturation situation (runs off to Wikipedia to learn more)


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Another COSC regulated NTH.
> Gained 11 seconds over 8 days.
> 
> 
> ...


Lucky you, my new Nacken Modern is doing 11-12 seconds a day. Yeah yeah I know, still (well) within specs for a 9015...


----------



## Champ18 (Jun 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> Okay...Dan's a MECHANICAL genius.
> 
> Fluid dynamics maybe aren't his thing.


That was a long set-up. But the payoff (punchline?) was worth it. I LOLed.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Metallman said:


> Lucky you, my new Nacken Modern is doing 11-12 seconds a day. Yeah yeah I know, still (well) within specs for a 9015...


Try out some different positions overnight to self regulate. Crown down seems to always work to slow it down.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I guess I assumed anytime you were below 200m you were in a saturation situation (runs off to Wikipedia to learn more)


Not necessarily, but, just because you're saturation diving doesn't mean you necessarily need an HEV. They have nothing to do with WR.

The HEV is intended to release helium from inside the case in situations where divers are living in pressurized environments for long periods of time - transitioning between diving and dry environments, so they don't need to repeatedly decompress, thereby reducing their risk of decompression sickness ("the bends").

While at depth and in these pressurized dry environments, they're breathing a mix of gases, including helium. Helium particles are small enough to get past the o-rings. It builds up inside the case, and in some cases, the crystal can pop off if the gas isn't released when they decompress, because the pressure inside the case is greater than it is outside the case.

If a diver isn't transitioning from deep-water diving to pressurized dry quarters (where the gas they breath gets into the case), for longer periods of time, it's a non-issue. The gas isn't getting into the case under water, it's getting in while they're living in those mixed-gas, dry chambers.

If their watch isn't equipped with an HEV, the pressure can be equalized in other ways, such as loosening the crown or caseback - not really ideal, but in a dry environment, not altogether dangerous, as long as they remember to tighten the crown or caseback before going back in the water.

If the watch is more robust, it may be able to withstand the build up of pressure while the helium escapes the case the same way it got in - by slipping past the o-rings. Eventually, the pressure will equalize.

Sound like a big risk? I'm not so sure. If the WR measures are so good that helium can't escape fast enough to equalize the pressure, it's logical to think the measures are good enough to keep the crystal from popping off. It depends on how much gas gets in, and how quickly it gets out, versus the ability of the case to contain that pressure.

Commercial saturation divers, maintaining compression for extended periods, probably aren't wearing these types of dive watches. For most, the HEV is a nice-to-have, not a need-to-have.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

It's Friday.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Metallman said:


> Lucky you, my new Nacken Modern is doing 11-12 seconds a day. Yeah yeah I know, still (well) within specs for a 9015...


11.5 seconds / 86,400 seconds in a day = 0.0133101%

Or, to put that another way, 99.986689% of "perfect".

Not bad for on-the-wrist/off-the-wrist performance, where the watch isn't always at full power, and isn't spending equal time in all positions.

Wonder what the timegrapher would show us as the average rate in multiple positions, with the watch at full power. Bet you it's better than 11-12 s/d.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> Not necessarily, but, just because you're saturation diving doesn't mean you necessarily need an HEV. They have nothing to do with WR.
> 
> The HEV is intended to release helium from inside the case in situations where divers are living in pressurized environments for long periods of time - transitioning between diving and dry environments, so they don't need to repeatedly decompress, thereby reducing their risk of decompression sickness ("the bends").
> 
> ...


Yeah I was WAY off on what I thought saturation diving was lol

I thought once you got below 200m that there was so much helium in the water.........well Ill shut up now


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

What is "ghost printing" on the new Nazario? :think:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Yeah I was WAY off on what I thought saturation diving was lol
> 
> I thought once you got below 200m that there was *so much helium in the water*.........well Ill shut up now


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> What is "ghost printing" on the new Nazario? :think:


Look at the logo and black dial text on the Phantom.

View attachment 14212423


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

docvail said:


>


I like you man...

Oh and Marky Mark is a fox as well.

Now go and make another gif with your swoonie eyes plix.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


>


My eyes are UP HERE MARK!!!!


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> 11.5 seconds / 86,400 seconds in a day = 0.0133101%
> 
> Or, to put that another way, 99.986689% of "perfect".
> 
> ...


I too would be curious about what a timegrapher would show and agree it would likely show better than 11 - 12 s/d, but a couple points I'd like to make:

1. I AM NOT complaining about my watch's performance, just stating my experience for others since they may have an unreasonable expectation after seeing posts like the one I first quoted that showed 11 seconds over
8 days. For the record, I checked the timing over the course of a week, off the wrist only (still have the plastic on the watch), full hand wind (30+ full turns daily), in only the face up position. In the past I've seen your posts telling about how little positional variance the 9015 shows vs. other movements. However, ALL movements have some positional variance.

2. After following this thread for the last 2 years, I am well aware that you regulate your watches to HALF of the Miyota specification for the 9015 (-5/+15 vs. -10/+30), and as such my watch is clearly WITHIN specification.
I am also aware that you are not in the business of making "perfect" watches, there is an allowable tolerance for every part on a watch and as you stated mine is currently running at 99.9% perfect. Agreed, not bad for an off the shelf movement in a $650 watch. 

3. Also, for those watching at home, I am not suggesting that the watch be regulated as it is NOT in need of any adjustment. If others aren't happy with similar performance they have the same options I do, either live with it (which I am happy to do) or return the watch for a full refund within 30 days (provided the watch still has all the protective covering etc.).

4. To emphasis that I am very SATISFIED with my new NTH, please note that I have ordered and prepaid for a Barracuda Brown from the next batch. Yes I am now repeat customer, unhappy customers don't buy a second watch if they are unhappy with the first one.

I also intend to buy at least 2 of the new XL subs when they become available.....


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I still maintain that the nickname for the XL subs should be "Chubs".


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Yeah I was WAY off on what I thought saturation diving was lol
> 
> I thought once you got below 200m that there was so much helium in the water.........well Ill shut up now


He2O, maybe floating gas water in space somewhere, who knows.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Metallman said:


> I too would be curious about what a timegrapher would show and agree it would likely show better than 11 - 12 s/d, but a couple points I'd like to make:
> 
> 1. I AM NOT complaining about my watch's performance, just stating my experience for others since they may have an unreasonable expectation after seeing posts like the one I first quoted that showed 11 seconds over
> 8 days. For the record, I checked the timing over the course of a week, off the wrist only (still have the plastic on the watch), full hand wind (30+ full turns daily), in only the face up position. In the past I've seen your posts telling about how little positional variance the 9015 shows vs. other movements. However, ALL movements have some positional variance.
> ...


I didn't infer any complaint, though I do often assume any comment might create a criticism from the lurking third party.

If you're happy, I'm happy.

Sometimes I'm happy anyway.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Y'all please help if you can.









https://www.gofundme.com/support-ellie039s-journey-with-the-dill-family


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Just a hunch: no Zwaardvis, with date, in the foreseeable future...


----------



## Bleedingblue (Jun 24, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> I still maintain that the nickname for the XL subs should be "Chubs".


If that happens there needs to be a model called the Peterson


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Somewhat ironically, while some folks think a diver isn't "serial" without a HEV, all it really is for the VAST majority of owners is a possible failure point where water could get in the watch. I really, REALLY doubt many professional deep sea divers have SMPs on their wrists in 2019.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Somewhat ironically, while some folks think a diver isn't "serial" without a HEV, all it really is for the VAST majority of owners is a possible failure point where water could get in the watch. I really, REALLY doubt many professional deep sea divers have SMPs on their wrists in 2019.


Pretty sure you mean "cereal".

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Y'all please help if you can.
> 
> View attachment 14212789
> 
> ...


Done. Good on ya, Chris. Gotta believe that this is trending on GoFundMe at least in part because of your support. Lots of $20 donations. I immediately recognized Rusty's ugly grille. At least his pants weren't around his ankles in that pic.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Done. Good on ya, Chris. Gotta believe that this is trending on GoFundMe at least in part because of your support. Lots of $20 donations. I immediately recognized Rusty's ugly grille. At least his pants weren't around his ankles in that pic.


Be happy he owns pants.

He's from Louisiana.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Pretty sure you mean "cereal".
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Ah yes, that's right. The Crepas Cayman 3000 is for super cereal people. You even dive, bro?

View attachment 14213787


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

This just came in about an hour ago. Much appreciate the heads up on this one, Doc. Sergio _nailed it_.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seems like Sergio did nail it. Good on him.

With just about every new model, produced by every new brand, it seems like people who get it all rave about it.

C'mon. Not every new release is a home run. After a while, you get jaded, and most new releases just seem a bit ho-hum, despite the praise, which begins to seem unwarranted.

Some stand out. I like those. I like seeing someone turn out a unique design, which catches on, then deliver it, more or less on-time, with good communication to backers/customers, and most of all, I like to see people pleased with the results.

I don't know Sergio well. He seems like a sweetheart of a gent, though. I was flattered he sought my opinion, and I was happy to do a little to help spread the word. I started out thinking it was a design which deserved to be brought to life, and he deserved to be rewarded for his efforts and risk-taking in developing it.

Good on all those who ordered one. I hope they're all as pleased as the first few people to post about them seem to be.

There isn't enough happiness in the world. Few of us feel like we create any in what we do. No one ever emailed me to tell me they absolutely loved the insurance or software I sold them. For all the nitpicking that happens in this hobby, there's still a good portion of happiness being delivered to a lot of people. I hope Sergio is taking the time to enjoy his moment in the sun.

I'm looking forward to the delivery of the Aevig Huldra. That one's been a long time coming, and I think it's Chip's Mjölnir - maybe not his most signature design work, but certainly the big hammer in his tool set.









There are a handful of projects I've been looking forward to. Three of the guys who came through our Microbrand University Workshop seemed like they were within 6 months of launch, so obviously I feel invested in the success of those projects.

There's a guy on FB who's starting a company called LPW, with an original design for a toolish diver, the Luna One. Something about it caught my eye the first time I saw it, and it's only grown on me since then.









Sergio showed me his next design - it's cool. I'll just leave it at that. Sergio has some good design chops.

I'm kinda digging this new Newmark diver from Ewan Wilson. He seems like a good bloke.









I don't want to tell tales out of school, but...someone I know well is working on his own skunkworks project, which should be a crowd-pleaser, at least around here, since it delivers on something people apparently want, but which I'm not all that interested in making. I'll be rooting for the success of that one.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> I don't want to tell tales out of school, but...someone I know well is working on his own skunkworks project, which should be a crowd-pleaser, at least around here, since it delivers on something people apparently want, but which I'm not all that interested in making. I'll be rooting for the success of that one.


Hope it is a 40mm "Murph" homage with a 9015 powering it.


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

Well I've gotten myself into a pickle. Not too long ago I decided to try the one good do most everything watch approach. I got a titanium seamaster (2254 too shiny for my taste) and intended to sell off most of my quartz tool watches. Pictures below. I did sell a few and don't miss them. At this point I realized it was going to be hard to part with rest and I wasn't comfortable walking around with 2K on my wrist. And I am not going to have a watch like that sit in a box. I'm not a collector. Frankly the more I learn about Swatch Group the less I like them. Bare with me there's a point to all this. I decide to get a 9015 driven robust everyday watch. Most of my days are in on or around the ocean. So the reason I'm bothering you all with this is I am having a damn hard time choosing between the Skipjack and the Odin. Great first world problem to have.









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Roy Hobbs said:


> Well I've gotten myself into a pickle. Not too long ago I decided to try the one good do most everything watch approach. I got a titanium seamaster (2254 too shiny for my taste) and intended to sell off most of my quartz tool watches. Pictures below. I did sell a few and don't miss them. At this point I realized it was going to be hard to part with rest and I wasn't comfortable walking around with 2K on my wrist. And I am not going to have a watch like that sit in a box. I'm not a collector. Frankly the more I learn about Swatch Group the less I like them. Bare with me there's a point to all this. I decide to get a 9015 driven robust everyday watch. Most of my days are in on or around the ocean. So the reason I'm bothering you all with this is I am having a damn hard time choosing between the Skipjack and the Odin. Great first world problem to have.


I'm confused. Looks like you have both already?

If so, where's the problem? Keep both. Boom. Problem solved.

To me, they're like two alternate ways to get to the same end-point. Both vintage-ish divers, neither overtly unique nor over-the-top homagey.

What differentiates them is how toolish they are. I think the Odin is more military-toolish than the Skipjack, which to me feels a bit more casual. Not in the casual vs dressy sense, but in the less rigid, "maybe I'll keep an eye on my bottom-time, maybe I won't bother" sense. The Skipjack is a little more relaxed.

Not that anyone is seriously using either to time their decompression stops or the like, but the Odin seems more believably cast in that sort of role.

The Odin is like Lloyd Bridges in "Sea Hunt". The Skipjack is more Jorge Mistral from "Boy on a Dolphin".

Both go in the water. Both get the girl. Lloyd has his $hlt buttoned up tight, and goes on to become Hollywood royalty. Jorge bangs Sophia Loren once, and is forgotten to history.

How much do you like Sophia Loren? I'm not joking. Lloyd's co-star was Zale Parry. Cute, but no Sophia Loren.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Seems like Sergio did nail it. Good on him.
> 
> With just about every new model, produced by every new brand, it seems like people who get it all rave about it.
> 
> ...


That's what happens with the honeymoon phase. I really liked the Evant Decodiver when I first got it, but over time I began to sour on it, and the little nitpicks I had about the design started to bother me more and more, and I started wearing it less and less, and eventually sold it. In hindsight I probably should've known. It was one of those watches where I loved one specific thing about it, in this case that bright blue sunburst dial, and the rest of the design was "fine." I didn't mind that the design was a mishmash of Genta, Blancpain, and vintage 3 6 9 dialed Explorers and Submariners, but that's not why I bought it. Since I was never that crazy about the rest of the watch, the one thing I did like wasn't enough to save it from getting the axe.

Others are gone for reasons ranging from emotional and largely unrelated to the watch itself (my Cascais) to what seems like a dumb issue but bugged the hell out of me (my Sea Wolf's incredibly loud balance wheel tick). The watches that manage to survive more than a year in the collection all have a combination of things that I love. So far that's the Bacardi Seiko, the Aevig Huldra, and the SKX. Only time will tell if I feel the same about the Drz_02 two years from now.

I'm definitely very curious to see what Sergio comes up with for his third act. The progression from the Type 250f which is a nice enough motorsport inspired watch, but nothing particularly unique or special, to the Drz_02 which is _incredibly_ unique is pretty astonishing.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Dumb double post is dumb.


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

You are correct I do have both. Trying to decide which to keep. The Skipjack is more fun for sure. And I prefer the less busy bezel. It is badass but I'm wondering if the red logo makes it less versatile or I will tire of it. Certainly tempted to keep both but it kind of defeats the purpose of streamlining. Dunno. It's my own damn fault for buying before I decided.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Roy Hobbs said:


> You are correct I do have both. Trying to decide which to keep. The Skipjack is more fun for sure. And I prefer the less busy bezel. It is badass but I'm wondering if the red logo makes it less versatile or I will tire of it. Certainly tempted to keep both but it kind of defeats the purpose of streamlining. Dunno. It's my own damn fault for buying before I decided.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


No not really. I mean it's really something else when seeing both in the metal for sure.

Between the two I'd say skipjack only because the Omega you have has some cues that are shared on the Odin. However that may be the reason you like it lol.

I'd personally choose the skipjack because I have a Helson sharkmaster that is almost like the odin.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Roy Hobbs said:


> I am having a damn hard time choosing between the Skipjack and the Odin.


I think Chris's response was pure to the essence of both pieces unto themselves...but the conundrum comes when you try (sometimes without success) to balance your choice among (or "amoung" for your chaps who wear trousers) with the other pieces in your collection. Us financial types call it Asset Allocation in developing a well-balanced portfolio. IMO, FWIW, I think Skippy pulls far enough away from the other looks vs. the Odin.

I tend to agree with Doc on this one to his point of keeping them both...for now. Allow the fates to guide a future decision rather than forcing one now.

OOhh, what's this?









One of my top 5 weekend beaters! Gotta love the GPW Ti BigDate. Smack it and it smacks you back. 
Not pretty, doesn't need to be (and terrible pic on this computer). 12hr bezel & Nth strap bonusness!











docvail said:


> ...Lloyd's co-star was Zale Parry. Cute, but no Sophia Loren.


This. FTW.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I'm looking forward to the delivery of the Aevig Huldra. That one's been a long time coming, and I think it's Chip's Mjölnir - maybe not his most signature design work, but certainly the big hammer in his tool set.
> 
> View attachment 14213837


Yeah. Although I'm beyond perplexed at Chip's decision to change the colour of the blue Huldra from v1's petrol-cyan-blue to a regular sunburst blue... That blue tone that the v1 blue Huldra had was (and still is) a far rarer and more interesting color than the "regulation diver blue" of the upcoming v2 Huldra...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah. Although I'm beyond perplexed at Chip's decision to change the colour of the blue Huldra from v1's petrol-cyan-blue to a regular sunburst blue... That blue tone that the v1 blue Huldra had was (and still is) a far rarer and more interesting color than the "regulation diver blue" of the upcoming v2 Huldra...


Yup. It took me something like 5 or 6 months to hunt down a V1 blue Huldra, and I'm very glad I did. If I remember right, Chip also opted to go with a flat bezel insert this time instead of the sloped bezel of the original, which is also no bueno in my book. I love how the bezel on my V1 forms a nice solid arc all the way to the top of the crystal. The blue team:


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Seems like Sergio did nail it. Good on him.
> 
> With just about every new model, produced by every new brand, it seems like people who get it all rave about it.
> 
> ...


I love the geometry of that Luna. It nails the logo design, too, which is rare. Logo design/branding/text-on-dial tends to be a weak point for most micros. (Heck, it's a weak point for many, maybe even most, established brands, too.)

The Newmark popped up on my radar via a YouTube review and it immediately grabbed my attention. I'm a sucker for that triangle + numeral indices style that was utilized by a variety of watch brands in this sixties (famously by Eterna, but the Newmark design is closer to vintage Lucerne pieces).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> I love the geometry of that Luna. It nails the logo design, too, which is rare. Logo design/branding/text-on-dial tends to be a weak point for most micros. (Heck, it's a weak point for many, maybe even most, established brands, too.)
> 
> The Newmark popped up on my radar via a YouTube review and it immediately grabbed my attention. I'm a sucker for that triangle + numeral indices style that was utilized by a variety of watch brands in this sixties (famously by Eterna, but the Newmark design is closer to vintage Lucerne pieces).


I wasn't sold on the script text on the Luna One, but that was the only thing that struck me as out of place. Otherwise, I think he nailed the final design, and the script bothers me less each time I see it.

I forget the watch, but there was another recent release that had the same bracelet as the Newmark (which is a remake of an older Newmark, before the brand was resurrected), and I kind of love it. The links remind me of an escalator.

I think both would benefit from offering no-date versions.









One of the guys in our workshop flew here from Tokyo. I was VERY interested to hear him say he had tapped into a network of suppliers based in Japan, beyond just Seiko and Miyota.

I've heard that there are a handful of vendors there, such as case makers, but in my observation/experience, they don't make themselves easy to find, the way the European and Chinese vendors do.

He's talking about making his watch in Japan, with a case maker that can do Zaratsu finishing. He didn't have final costs, but early indications were that he'd be able to offer it at a pretty reasonable price (under $1k).


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...
> 
> I think both would benefit from offering no-date versions.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Every watch should. I'm so glad NTH subs offer ND.

Doc Savage


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> I wasn't sold on the script text on the Luna One, but that was the only thing that struck me as out of place. Otherwise, I think he nailed the final design, and the script bothers me less each time I see it.
> 
> I forget the watch, but there was another recent release that had the same bracelet as the Newmark (which is a remake of an older Newmark, before the brand was resurrected), and I kind of love it. The links remind me of an escalator.
> 
> ...


Ah, I didn't know it was a resurrected brand!

The site for Newmark says there will be no-date options, ala:


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

If we're picking watches based on co-stars, whatever watches are worn in Survival Island would be strong contenders. I somehow neglected to pay attention to wrists when I stumbled on that movie recently. But if they had divers, they get my vote.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Choosing between NTH subs is difficult for sure. Nice problem to have. 

I tried another micro recently. That one was refreshingly easy. Opened it up and within minutes decided, nope, not for me. No sense trying to warm up to it when there are so many obviously good NTH subs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

$7 ebay nylon QR military strap. One keeper cut off.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Are the inserts easy to pop out on these? I wasn’t sure if the bezels were easy to pop off like an SKX. 

My insert is off a hair and I’m an OCD turd about it. 

(Bought used so I’ll blame it on the previous owner lol)


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Agent Sands said:


> Ah, I didn't know it was a resurrected brand!
> 
> The site for Newmark says there will be no-date options, ala:


Nice. Zodiac also recently started offering no-date Sea Wolf 53s in regular production models after the initial LE no-date titanium from a little while back.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Are the inserts easy to pop out on these? I wasn't sure if the bezels were easy to pop off like an SKX.
> 
> My insert is off a hair and I'm an OCD turd about it.
> 
> (Bought used so I'll blame it on the previous owner lol)


Doc talked about this quite a bit in the last few pages. The short answer is they used to be, not no more.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Traded my damasko ds30 for these two. 4th NTH in collection. Love the grainy dial on both of these. Impressed with Nodus as well
Both are new(unworn) too. Traded with the cool guy from these forums that happens to live nearby.










Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

Think it's going to be Skipjack. Such a cool watch. And if I want that 60s Seamaster vibe down the road it's not hard to find. Sized the bracelet. Try out some natos soon. Well executed piece.









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Are the inserts easy to pop out on these? I wasn't sure if the bezels were easy to pop off like an SKX.
> 
> My insert is off a hair and I'm an OCD turd about it.
> 
> (Bought used so I'll blame it on the previous owner lol)


Do NOT remove the bezel assembly.

If the insert is off a hair, there's an easy-enough, home-spun fix, ASSUMING the adhesive isn't the new, stronger stuff.

Follow these instructions EXACTLY:

1. Unscrew the crown (to let heat out).

2. Heat the insert with a heat-gun (to loosen the adhesive).

3. Find a way to nudge the insert without burning your fingers. Nudge it where you want it to go.

4. Let it cool.

If you can't get it, don't screw with it.

If you pry the bezel ring off, you could destroy it or the case. No, I don't have replacements of either.

If you pry the insert out, you're opening up a new can of worms.

Are you going to try to stick it back in using the same adhesive, or are you going to scrape the adhesive off the insert and underlying assembly, and replace it? With what? I tried like hell to find the right adhesive online, and everything we tried was too thick.

If you try to re-use the original adhesive, if may not stick as well, and your insert may be lost.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Traded my damasko ds30 for these two. 4th NTH in collection. Love the grainy dial on both of these. Impressed with Nodus as well
> Both are new too. Traded with the cool guy from these forums that happens to live nearby.
> 
> 
> ...


Nice. We didn't make very many of the Tiburon. I want to say just 20 pieces, total, 10 date, 10 no-date.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

I figured they were sturdy. I'll try the heat method and if it doesn't work just leave it.

Thanks for the instructions



docvail said:


> PixlPutterMan said:
> 
> 
> > Are the inserts easy to pop out on these? I wasn't sure if the bezels were easy to pop off like an SKX.
> ...


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Having issues understanding if I’m hand winding the miyota correctly. Right after the crown is unscrewed, while in that position I turn clockwise, or away from me. I hear/feel this subtle grinding type noise. Am I missing something or is that normal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Mikefable said:


> Having issues understanding if I'm hand winding the miyota correctly. Right after the crown is unscrewed, while in that position I turn clockwise, or away from me. I hear/feel this subtle grinding type noise. Am I missing something or is that normal?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When you unscrew it, the crown pops out slightly and without pulling it out any more turn clockwise to wind and yes you will feel and hear grinding noise.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

DuckaDiesel said:


> When you unscrew it, the crown pops out slightly and without pulling it out any more turn clockwise to wind and yes you will feel and hear grinding noise.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


Thank you! I searched through the forum and couldn't find an exact answer concerning the crown position or the noise.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Nice. We didn't make very many of the Tiburon. I want to say just 20 pieces, total, 10 date, 10 no-date.


Oh thats cool, I had no idea. This one is unworn. Not sure if i ll keep it just yet. Scorpene date is calling me now that I no long have the ds30. May flip Tiburon for it. Black Scorpene was always my favorite NTH sub

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Mikefable said:


> Having issues understanding if I'm hand winding the miyota correctly. Right after the crown is unscrewed, while in that position I turn clockwise, or away from me. I hear/feel this subtle grinding type noise. Am I missing something or is that normal?


The louder the grinding and clicking noises, the better the wind-up will be. If you're really doing it right, the gears should basically screech and squeak in protest, while the rotor spins madly like a vampire in a willow casket.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Mikefable said:


> Having issues understanding if I'm hand winding the miyota correctly. Right after the crown is unscrewed, while in that position I turn clockwise, or away from me. I hear/feel this subtle grinding type noise. Am I missing something or is that normal?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Totally normal. Movements all wind differently. Some are clicky and notchy feeling, others turn smoothly. They all make some sort of noise though. The 9015 seems to be more robust than Swiss movements are in terms of tolerating regular handwinding, but I give mine ~20 turns or so, which is likely around 50% power (at least it is for the 6R21 in my Seiko. It's hard to know for sure without a PR indicator.) and I let the rotor take care of the rest.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

The Commander was on beach duty again today:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

More good stuff...









https://www.gofundme.com/support-el...9vH5FltcnhCTvoAcHxAaKrF0OuSrBGChUNFWnDD0oyMW8

Boom - apparently good vibes are contagious. Please send your good vibes to the Dill family, and also to Val, who is an amazing person, and has gone through some hard times of his own recently.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, this.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Thanks Doc, You are truly an amazing dude.

I am also trying to raise a bit of money for @justadad Every little bit counts so I am offering a pair of Blue Jay tix I know Toronto HAHAH but hey, it is something right? 
Anyways I am sorry that it is for Toronto area peeps or perhaps you are planning on visiting this fine city the week of July 24th? But again, every little bit helps.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/give...y-sorry-toronto-can-peeps-only-;-4969843.html

I should mention that I do not want to post this on facebook. I am not sure how my Boss would feel about me giving the tickets away. He is a charitable guy, just didn't get his clearance. I guess this sounds a bit suspect lol.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Thanks Doc, You are truly an amazing dude.
> 
> I am also trying to raise a bit of money for @justadad Every little bit counts so I am offering a pair of Blue Jay tix I know Toronto HAHAH but hey, it is something right?
> Anyways I am sorry that it is for Toronto area peeps or perhaps you are planning on visiting this fine city the week of July 24th? But again, every little bit helps.
> ...


I've known amazing people. I'm not that amazing. I mostly pretend to be human, and if I have the energy, I pretend to be a good one.

I had no idea Jason and his wife had opened their home the way they have. I don't know Jason well. I've known others who've struggled to adopt, both friends and family. It just struck me as criminally unjust that his family should incur outrageous legal costs just to adopt a kid who's already living with them, the only family she's ever known.

The nice thing about having a business like mine is that it opens up opportunities to do more than just reaching into my pocket for a cash donation. People will put up more money when they see the possibility of personal gain, so when a business donates product to be auctioned or raffled off, it has a multiplier effect. People who don't know Jason or his family well enough to care will throw $20 in the hat just for a chance to win a watch, and feel like it's going to a good cause.

The money raised is more than I could justify contributing from my family's personal funds, and it's easier for me to donate product we've already produced than it is to donate cash which would otherwise go to operational costs or future production. It's just win-win all the way around - the product is worth more to those hoping to get it than it is to the business. And the cash it helps raise is more than I could give on my own.

Val and Emilio are both stand up guys for stepping up like they have. Val's had some pretty big medical bills recently (and is himself the father of adopted children), and Emilio has also suffered some personal setbacks lately.

Also - credit to John Keil at Watch Gauge for suggesting we make it a raffle, rather than an auction, which is what I've usually done in the past, and what I'd planned to do. The 2 Zwaardvis and the 2 Phantoms are pieces he's letting me buy back from his inventory, and when I called to ask him for them, he persuaded me that more people would get involved and it would raise more money if we made it a raffle instead of an auction.


----------



## justadad (Jun 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> I've known amazing people. I'm not that amazing. I mostly pretend to be human, and if I have the energy, I pretend to be a good one.
> 
> I had no idea Jason and his wife had opened their home the way they have. I don't know Jason well. I've known others who've struggled to adopt, both friends and family. It just struck me as criminally unjust that his family should incur outrageous legal costs just to adopt a kid who's already living with them, the only family she's ever known.
> 
> ...


All true, Chris. I think the raffle is the way to go and my family is extremely grateful to you, Val, Emilio, Zach, and so many others who have already donated.

It isn't easy to ask for help, but that is where we are. Humbly in need of it. If a watch as incentive is what it takes, then I'm glad everyone is able to get something out of what will come from an amazing gesture.

Ellie is a special girl and we are fortunate to be a part of her life.

Thank you.









That what can be imagined, can be achieved.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Met this kid (I'm old, he's in his 20's), in HK last year. He's one to watch, IMO. Liked him right away.

This doesn't hurt...









Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

.









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Must be Blue Monday

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

docvail said:


> Met this kid (I'm old, he's in his 20's), in HK last year. He's one to watch, IMO. Liked him right away.
> 
> This doesn't hurt...
> 
> ...


FYI, Going to crosspost about this raffle to help spread the word far and wide.
I'm sure you won't mind.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

^ I do not mind.

Also, this just happened...









I've had two other brand owners reach out to me about donating product. I'm waiting on them to send over details, and having a hard time keeping up.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> ^ I do not mind.
> 
> Also, this just happened...
> 
> ...


I mean... Jeez, you guys.

The first time I donated it was all "oh, what a great couple (didn't know it was justadad) and a worthy cause and of course I'll donate!"

Second time it was "d**m, micro-brand watch producers, so many nice pieces up for grabs here!" 

Does that make me a bad person??? Or just morally conflicted? :think:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> I mean... Jeez, you guys.
> 
> The first time I donated it was all "oh, what a great couple (didn't know it was justadad) and a worthy cause and of course I'll donate!"
> 
> ...


You're a lawyer.

Didn't realize you had morals.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> You're a lawyer.
> 
> Didn't realize you had morals.


Oh right! Thanks for the reminder!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

reunited after a weekend getaway.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

JakeJD said:


> I mean... Jeez, you guys.
> 
> The first time I donated it was all "oh, what a great couple (didn't know it was justadad) and a worthy cause and of course I'll donate!"
> 
> ...


Seriously, ^^this^^

First donation was just because I like to do my small part to reduce world suck (full disclosure, heard that phrase somewhere a few years ago, can't remember where, and it stuck with me).

Now I wantz them watches. Time to improve the odds.

I predict that this is going to get out of hand quickly. I'm comfortable with that.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Just looked at the comments. WISes with money burning holes in their pockets are going to get this thing done.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Just donated! Glad it’s going to a good cause and can’t believe the generosity of the watch community. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I didn't know you knew the Traska guy. That Freediver is pretty suite.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Just donated too. Hope the target can be reached, it's quite close in such a short period of time. Kudos to the community for the support.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I didn't know you knew the Traska guy. That Freediver is pretty suite.


He knows me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Two more watches added to the show.

Eric Goodlock (@goody2141), Derek Love (@chicolabronse), and our friend Eddy Tse (@HKEd), the guys behind EMG / HKED (https://emgwatches.com/) just pledged a green Nemo and black Emperor.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Damn i love those EMG.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

.









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Office wear.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

From today it is required to only wear Odin on Erika's MN strap

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I just talked my future Boss into pitching in as well. 

This is awesome.


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

A little late to the party on the Odin v Skip Jack decision based on cinema comparison. But a Seamaster 300 is exactly what a British secret agent would/should have been issued in 1967's Fathom. The watch that gets closest to Raquel Welch, wins.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

When do we get to learn more about and see the new "larger" subs?


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

gsurf said:


> A little late to the party on the Odin v Skip Jack decision based on cinema comparison. But a Seamaster 300 is exactly what a British secret agent would/should have been issued in 1967's Fathom. The watch that gets closest to Raquel Welch, wins.
> 
> View attachment 14222695


I agree entirely with the Raquel sentiment but I am liking this Skipjack more each day









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Roy Hobbs said:


> I agree entirely with the Raquel sentiment but I am liking this Skipjack more each day
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great Strap!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

My Wall of Text.. and my new Barracuda ..

I've always had a fondness for watches.. but never really pursued it beyond .. having say ONE watch . A few years ago I splurged and got a Seiko Solar Quartz ( $100 ) and was a happy guy.
Then for some reason a couple years ago rekindled my interest.. and started looking at like.. Fossil, Invicta as they are so prevalent at dept. stores.

Then did my typical anal thing and started < internet > searching and learning. Didn't even know there were " mechanicals " versus quartz .. Got enamored with the idea and got my first Mechanical: a Seiko 5 SNK809 ( $80) with display back. Man was I excited to watch that movement.. and do the daily "Seiko Shuffle"

Then, with compulsive further study.. popped for a $275 Orient Mako USA II .. beautiful gradient blue dial.. wonderful lumed indices.. Hacking,.. in house movement, sapphire crystal and solid end links ( by know picking up the "jargon" of watch details ..
Then: an SKX Pepsi.. ( $175 ),. an Orient diver with my team colors ($125 SF Giants: Black Orange ) .. a GShock fancy analog model ( $150 ), and a work around the house GShock F91W . ( Five Bucks ! ) ..

The more I looked, the more layers of the onion became apparent.. the hype.. the misinformation.. the brand " mystique " .. Swiss over production and the Grey Market.. .. the more I learned kinda the more confused I got re: what is a " good " watch..

Then I grappled with learning about the " high " end.. Rolex.. Patek, Audemar.. Lange. JLC.. Omega.., Panerai.. . or "entry" level Sinn, Oris.. Hanhart.. etc ..

Blows me away to hear common conversation talking about " cheap " nice watches being $1,000 to $3,000.. and people spending $10,000 - $20,000 - ON A WATCH . I discover I have a real penchant for: Tudor.. Classic looks.. pedigree.. and god forbid not $10,000 like Rolex..

So now I'm swept into the idea that .. $1,000 is "entry" level .. .. for me: $1,000 is a hell of a lot of money.. as I have a life.. < mortgage, car maintenance, insurance, life expenses .. yada yada ) .. plus I have OTHER hobbies..

Along comes NTH. When I saw the Barracuda I was blown away.. along with the Nacken.. and the others.. I find this forum and learn the amount of thought and detail that has gone into the NTH product.. I was "IN".. ordered my Barracuda and Damn.. this thing is INCREDIBLE . gorgeous. My wife is not as understanding that I dropped $650 on ANOTHER watch.. that to her " Looks just like all the others " < diver > .

So see how perspective changes.. I feel like: my NTH saved me $3,000. It appreciate it's quality, functionality and appearance.. and didn't drop $3,700 on a Black Bay.. It's sure as hell all the watch I NEED.. that's for sure.. If I didn't have predominantly Diver styles.. I'd immediately queue the Nacken and Ghost into my list.. but for sake of variation.. I'd like to add a Flieger ( Type A ) , and classic Marine style ( white enamel, small seconds, Arabic numerals ) , maybe a Regulator style ( Steinhart has a nice black one ) into my collection before adding more Divers..

Thanks Doc.. awesome watch ..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> When do we get to learn more about and see the new "larger" subs?


Please understand - I appreciate that you and others are interested.

But, I get busy, and when I'm busy, I don't like being pestered.

It makes me regret that I said anything about it at all. Because as soon as I say anything about something, people want to know more, and start asking me periodically.

No one is more interested in seeing it finished than I am. But I have other demands on my time, and rushing a design isn't going to make it better.

Trust me, when I have something to show people, I do everything in my power to get it in front of as many people as possible.

You won't miss it. Relax. Asking me about it doesn't increase my motivation to work on it. That actually lowers it.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Roy Hobbs said:


> I agree entirely with the Raquel sentiment but I am liking this Skipjack more each day


Agree. I've been thinking about this one a bit lately... all of the recent commentary about its vibe aren't helping my wallet prepare for the inevitability of me breaking down and picking one up.


----------



## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

MarkLH said:


> My Wall of Text.. and my new Barracuda ..
> 
> I've always had a fondness for watches.. but never really pursued it beyond .. having say ONE watch . A few years ago I splurged and got a Seiko Solar Quartz ( $100 ) and was a happy guy.
> Then for some reason a couple years ago rekindled my interest.. and started looking at like.. Fossil, Invicta as they are so prevalent at dept. stores.
> ...


I have the Barracuda black no date, Odin Blue no date, and Nacken modern blue no date. And contemplating a Ghost. You can't go wrong with an NTH. Their all awesome. Watch out though.  Just one may not be enough.


----------



## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

MarkLH said:


> My Wall of Text.. and my new Barracuda ..
> 
> I've always had a fondness for watches.. but never really pursued it beyond .. having say ONE watch . A few years ago I splurged and got a Seiko Solar Quartz ( $100 ) and was a happy guy.
> Then for some reason a couple years ago rekindled my interest.. and started looking at like.. Fossil, Invicta as they are so prevalent at dept. stores.
> ...


Congrats on your new Barracuda. I have the Barracuda black no date, Odin Blue no date, and Nacken modern blue no date. And contemplating a Ghost. You can't go wrong with an NTH. Their all awesome. Watch out though.  Just one may not be enough.


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

Roy Hobbs said:


> I agree entirely with the Raquel sentiment but I am liking this Skipjack more each day.


It's a great looking design- if only I could have two...


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

MarkLH said:


> My Wall of Text.. and my new Barracuda ..
> 
> I've always had a fondness for watches.. but never really pursued it beyond .. having say ONE watch . A few years ago I splurged and got a Seiko Solar Quartz ( $100 ) and was a happy guy.
> Then for some reason a couple years ago rekindled my interest.. and started looking at like.. Fossil, Invicta as they are so prevalent at dept. stores.
> ...


My story is almost identical, which eventually led me here and to my week old Odin Black Date. Absolutely thrilled with it. Incidentally, I was disappointed by a Tudor Black Bay in the metal- it oozes luxury and that is part of the problem- it is a big, thick slab of luxury, when what I really want is a modern, mid-century tool watch. The BB 58 gets more at it, but the price (?!) and still, no drilled lugs, only 200M WR... NTH Sub is a giant slayer.


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

timekepr said:


> I have the Barracuda black no date, Odin Blue no date, and Nacken modern blue no date. And contemplating a Ghost. You can't go wrong with an NTH. Their all awesome. Watch out though.  Just one may not be enough.


 Believe me.. if money were no object.. I'd have a Nacken, Skipjack and Ghost on order RIGHT NOW ! . Such fine watches.. Very pleased.. and this after: spending WAY to much time Internet surfing a zillion watches...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

DuckaDiesel said:


> From today it is required to only wear Odin on Erika's MN strap
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkLH said:


> ...my NTH saved me $3,000...


I need to be charging half the amount saved, like those tax-relief or home-assessment-appeal shops advertising on the radio.

You owe me the difference between $1500 and the $650 you paid.

We'll just call it $1000, with late penalties and interest, like the IRS does.


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

docvail said:


> We'll just call it $1000


you'll probly get more like $1,300 outta me... when I succumb to the Nacken , & Ghost


----------



## justadad (Jun 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> But, I get busy, and when I'm busy, I don't like being pestered.


Sorry guys! I fear I may have inadvertently Bogarted Doc's time! Not that he or I had any control over that. Total surprise to me and a giant time-sucking snowball for him!

Thank you Chris!

That what can be imagined, can be achieved.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Twehttam said:


> Agree. I've been thinking about this one a bit lately... all of the recent commentary about its vibe aren't helping my wallet prepare for the inevitability of me breaking down and picking one up.


Skipjack is the one. Here's how it can be vintage with BoR and tool-ish with a tropic strap


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

liquidtension said:


> Skipjack is the one.


Yeah, I know, it's happening...


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

K I'll check back next week 



docvail said:


> PixlPutterMan said:
> 
> 
> > When do we get to learn more about and see the new "larger" subs?
> ...


----------



## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

MarkLH said:


> you'll probly get more like $1,300 outta me... when I succumb to the Nacken , & Ghost


When you " succumb " to the Nacken & Ghost.  See your starting already.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

timekepr said:


> When you " succumb " to the Nacken & Ghost.  See your starting already.


One is never enough. You want the same case in different dials.

Then this happens


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Wore my Skipjack today ...









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I finally kind of figured out how to take lume shots with an iPhone.

That other time Doc was like, "Fug it, just lume the whole damn thing."




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

The NTH sub has really ruined me. I wore it on my honeymoon, a week of work in So Cal and some in between. I was ready for a change. I have NEVER worn a watch for more than 2-3 days in a row.

I went to the watch box this morning, grabbed one of my favorite Turtles(SRPC25) wound it, set the time, day and date and then jumped in the shower. While getting dressed, I looked at it, and put it right back in the watch box and grabbed the renegade.

It may just be the honeymoon phase, but this watch is making me reconsider my entire watch box. Eff you Chris Vail, eff you. I was so happy with my collection. . .

Edit: the pic with the wedding band was because this was the watch Mrs. Dub Rubb gave me on our wedding day. And you know I matched my wedding band to my watch cases! #TrueWIS

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

MarkLH said:


> So see how perspective changes.. I feel like: my NTH saved me $3,000. It appreciate it's quality, functionality and appearance.. and didn't drop $3,700 on a Black Bay.. It's sure as hell all the watch I NEED.. that's for sure.. If I didn't have predominantly Diver styles.. I'd immediately queue the Nacken and Ghost into my list.. but for sake of variation.. I'd like to add a Flieger ( Type A ) , and classic Marine style ( white enamel, small seconds, Arabic numerals ) , maybe a Regulator style ( Steinhart has a nice black one ) into my collection before adding more Divers..
> 
> Thanks Doc.. awesome watch ..


I went through a similar process, as it seems several of you folks have. I had a few hundred in credit at a local jewelry shop that carried Citizen and Hamilton. I didn't know anything about watches, and bought a Citizen Eco-drive world timer in two-tone (eek) because I thought it looked cool. That led me to start learning about Citizen, and then I started lusting after a JDM only model. From there I went to a Lum-tec - all quartz chronographs. After that I bought my first mechanical diver on this forum, an SKX, and that's when I completely lost all sanity. Suddenly dive bezels were all that matters, and the quartz chronos all got sold. Mechanical or go home.

One nice thing about affordable microbrand divers like the NTH subs is that not only are they a hell of a lot easier to buy than a Black Bay, they are also a hell of a lot easier to own. You can wear one for the 15+ years that the Miyota will work without complaint, and when it does start to go wrong, pick up another movement and have a watchmaker swap it out. They're about $80 on eBay. Tudor's in-house MT movements? Not so much.

One suggestion I'll make - don't add watches to your collection to tick watch category boxes (I need a flieger, a chrono, a GMT, a dress watch, etc). Buy a watch because you love the design. There's no law that says you can't have a collection of nothing but dive watches.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> There's no law that says you can't have a collection of nothing but dive watches.


Errr, you mean there are people out there who have collections of non dive watches?

Mind blown! 

I need to get out more! I guess my 30+ divers constitutes a problem then? Ahhh, the old normalisation of deviancy principle!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Red PeeKay said:


> Errr, you mean there are people out there who have collections of non dive watches?
> 
> Mind blown!
> 
> ...


Yes. I've even heard tale of people who don't own _any_ dive watches. Somehow after having bought and sold well over a dozen watches over the last couple of years, I find myself with just one (!) at the moment, the Huldra. My SKX currently has a fixed bezel on it, and then I have the Bacardi Seiko and the new Direnzo. Having just one diver simply will not due, so the SKX is on it's way back to being a diver after extended leave as a field watch. Sooner or later I'll also be adding a CW Trident MK3. Then.... I dunno.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Red PeeKay said:


> Errr, you mean there are people out there who have collections of non dive watches?
> 
> Mind blown!
> 
> ...


Yes. I've even heard tale of people who don't own _any_ dive watches. Somehow after having bought and sold well over a dozen watches over the last couple of years, I find myself with just one (!) at the moment, the Huldra. My SKX currently has a fixed bezel on it, and then I have the Bacardi Seiko and the new Direnzo. Having just one diver simply will not do, so the SKX is on it's way back to being a diver after extended leave as a field watch. Sooner or later I'll also be adding a CW Trident MK3. Then.... I dunno.


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

Well yeah ...
I've got 3 flieger (Laco A, Laco B and a Poljot Aviator 1 PVD - the one Fortis and Poljot had a copyright dispute over) 

... they hardly get wrist time at all. Got to get a few new straps for them -that might help. Or it doesn't.

Two of those watches are gifts of my wife (girlfriend back then) so they will stay in my collection, but I'm reality I just wear divers and dress watches 

Brought to you by Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Hope that someone can help me answer few questions about stp1-11. I never had this movement before but I had gazillion eta 2824s and sellita sw200
When winding the watch from PR being dead, it took about 20-25 full turns of the crown for it to start up. Is this normal? The other two were always 10 or less. 
When handwinding, gears clicking sound inside are loud, consistent but loud, this may be them being larger than in eta but I have never heard them before in etas, I am used to consistent grinding noise not clicking? 
Also, PR was abnormally short after wearing a watch for 14 days straight, I think it depleted after 20 hours but this I am not certain which is why I wound the watch this morning manually to wear it a day or so then track it. I know my Miyotas PR lasts forever it seems. I sometimes get surprised when I see the seconds hand still thicking after 2 days of not wearing the watch.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

New Belle of the Ball Barracuda.. but still *thoroughly* enjoy the others .. $1,100 out the door for all three.. careful horology on a budget ..  all for less than a *$ervice on a Rolex*.. 








1) Orient Mako USA II.. fabulous blue dial, great lumed applied indices, sapphire crystal, solid end links on a nice bracelet , day / date hacking in house movement, auto/manual wind ( with the wrong date LOL ) 
2) The Belle Barracuda < Coloreb leather strap en route ... > 
3) SKX009 
4) < note the absence of an " iWatch " which I will NEVER have .. <LOL >

re: more divers.. I'll have more..< NTH's > but I DO LIKE Flieger , and classic Marine.. so those will happen.. ( I have no need/use for "dress" watches ) . again with a frugal approach to good looking, solid movements.. but don't need IWC or Glashutte to scratch the itch.. ( would be nice.. but: $$$ says to dig for an NTH approach: affordable excellent quality... ) ..


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

New Belle of the Ball Barracuda.. < Dupe Dupe De Dupe >


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Hope that someone can help me answer few questions about stp1-11. I never had this movement before but I had gazillion eta 2824s and sellita sw200
> When winding the watch from PR being dead, it took about 20-25 full turns of the crown for it to start up. Is this normal? The other two were always 10 or less.
> When handwinding, gears clicking sound inside are loud, consistent but loud, this may be them being larger than in eta but I have never heard them before in etas, I am used to consistent grinding noise not clicking?
> Also, PR was abnormally short after wearing a watch for 14 days straight, I think it depleted after 20 hours but this I am not certain which is why I wound the watch this morning manually to wear it a day or so then track it. I know my Miyotas PR lasts forever it seems. I sometimes get surprised when I see the seconds hand still thicking after 2 days of not wearing the watch.
> ...


If it's one of ours, email customer support, and we'll get you troubleshooting instructions, as a prelude to possibly arranging a return.

None of that sounds altogether normal.

The STP is effectively an ETA clone with a longer PR. Operationally, they're otherwise the same, other than the PR.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

Well, apparently the brown 'cuda (amongst others it seems) is now available on a serious watch seller website in the Netherlands. 

No thanks to them, did I find out - I just love it when I sign up for a notification and said service does nothing to inform me. You had ONE job. 

Oh I'm sorry, are you to busy to not make an additional sale, is that it huh... HUH?!. 

Am I not good enough? Have I not waited patiently? Have I not forgotten about the BB58, and moved on to other snowflakes? Have I not been a good old boy?

What do you want from me? 

Here take my damn money, TAKE IT!

Pretty please with a cherry on top...

NHT resellers are pulling the Rolex and Tudor game me thinks. 

"You don't choose us, we choose you" 

Ok ok, ........ aside. I can't wait for the Brownie to show up. . If pictures don't to it justice, its gonna be a stunner. 'Cause it aint looking bad in pictures...


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

Duplicate


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Definitely post pics of your Brown 'Cuda! Excited to see it. Re: Serious... I love those guys. Always top-notch service to me but, agree, an alert *should* go out as soon as stock is available so you don't miss out.

What I'd recommend in the future - and you may feel like you shouldn't have to do this, but it works - is to send them an email prior and get on their list. They have always been incredibly responsive to me.


----------



## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)

Here's a picture of my Seiko. No, I'm not in the wrong thread. I just wanted you guys to see a watch that's made by Seiko which is owned by Orient Watches which is owned by Little Debbie Snacks. I'm sure, no need to fact-check any of that.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Definitely post pics of your Brown 'Cuda! Excited to see it. Re: Serious... I love those guys. Always top-notch service to me but, agree, an alert *should* go out as soon as stock is available so you don't miss out.
> 
> What I'd recommend in the future - and you may feel like you should have to do this, but it works - is to send them an email prior and get on their list. They have always been incredibly responsive to me.


This.

At the end of the day, technology isn't foolproof.

Email messages can get caught in spam filters, especially if they appear automated. I can't tell you how many people have submitted the contact form on our website and botched their own email address. I can't tell you how much I enjoy correcting an @gnail,con address for someone. Don't even get me started on the ones who misspell their own names in the email address itself, or complain they didn't get our message, only for us to find they gave us an alternative address they never bother to check, or marked us as junk mail 6 months ago.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

BVB on New Coloreb Strap


----------



## awrose (Aug 12, 2015)

Nazario Azzurro on BluShark


----------



## Champ18 (Jun 18, 2017)

docvail said:


> Don't even get me started on the ones who misspell their own names in the email address itself


A few years ago I started getting a massive amount of emails from retailers thanking me for registering my wedding at their store. Thought a friend was pulling a dumb joke on me. Then the emails started getting more serious, like reminders for actual appointments, etc. I thought that was taking the joke a little far, wasting innocent peoples time.
Turns out, it wasn't a joke after all. After some serious sleuthing I found the young bride-to-be via social media. Had to get creative with female names that matched my initials while also showing off engagement pics, etc. 
Found her. In canada. She was grateful I did as it averted catastrophe on her big day.

Never did answer the question though........... How on earth do you misspell your email 20+ different times??!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Champ18 said:


> A few years ago I started getting a massive amount of emails from retailers thanking me for registering my wedding at their store. Thought a friend was pulling a dumb joke on me. Then the emails started getting more serious, like reminders for actual appointments, etc. I thought that was taking the joke a little far, wasting innocent peoples time.
> Turns out, it wasn't a joke after all. After some serious sleuthing I found the young bride-to-be via social media. Had to get creative with female names that matched my initials while also showing off engagement pics, etc.
> Found her. In canada. She was grateful I did as it averted catastrophe on her big day.
> 
> Never did answer the question though........... How on earth do you misspell your email 20+ different times??!!


copy/paste.

It doesn't happen often, but when I have occasion to be filling out multiple online forms, I'll copy/paste the message over and over.

Also - auto-complete function on web-browsers.

Also - it may be that she entered it once, into some sort of wedding-registry aggregator, which then supplied it to other businesses tied into the network.

Also - aggregator is another weird word. My web browser is convinced it's misspelled (it isn't), and it looks like "angry 'gator".


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Also - aggregator is another weird word. My web browser is convinced it's misspelled (it isn't), and it looks like "angry 'gator".


I am NOT taking the blame for that one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Sorry for the interruption...

GO BLUES (nacken)

Ok....back to the watch talk. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I wanted to swap my BVB with then Gen 1/2 bracelet, yesterday put it on.. change it a few times between nato and leather... and I ended back to the same current bracelet. Is it me.... or do you guys go through the same cycle?


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> This.
> 
> At the end of the day, technology isn't foolproof.
> 
> Email messages can get caught in spam filters, especially if they appear automated. I can't tell you how many people have submitted the contact form on our website and botched their own email address. I can't tell you how much I enjoy correcting an @gnail,con address for someone. Don't even get me started on the ones who misspell their own names in the email address itself, or complain they didn't get our message, only for us to find they gave us an alternative address they never bother to check, or marked us as junk mail 6 months ago.


But I'm perfect?

Anyhow, sh(IT) happens - God knows, I have the pleasure of dealing with it for a living, and I'm sure there's a perfectly reasonable technical season. If the underlying (attempted) humorous tone of the post was not obvious, let it be clear: I have no beef with the vendor - but I would have used the Marcellus Wallace school of punishment, had I missed that watch (again)...

Due to the magic of the Internet, I have been contacted to make sure that I'm a happy camper. I am.

Hugs and kisses all'round.

And have no fear dear thread, I will try to capture it in all its glory once it arrives.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> I wanted to swap my BVB with then Gen 1/2 bracelet, yesterday put it on.. change it a few times between nato and leather... and I ended back to the same current bracelet. Is it me.... or do you guys go through the same cycle?


It's you.

The pace of my strap-change frequency could most accurately be described as "glacial".

Maybe it's not you. Maybe that's just me.

I lost a little more than 30 pounds since January. All my watches are now just a little too loose, and have been since April. I still haven't gotten around to re-sizing any of them.

If anyone in England next week spots a still-kinda-stocky guy walking around, shaking his left hand to get his watch to sit right, do be sure to come up and say hello.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RPDK said:


> But I'm perfect?
> 
> Anyhow, sh(IT) happens - God knows, I have the pleasure of dealing with it for a living, and I'm sure there's a perfectly reasonable technical season. If the underlying (attempted) humorous tone of the post was not obvious, let it be clear: I have no beef with the vendor - but I would have used the Marcellus Wallace school of punishment, had I missed that watch (again)...
> 
> ...


Good to hear!

We'll leave Marcellus strapped to the pommel horse. We don't want him going Medieval on anyone's a$$...


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

I know Doc is always soliciting / welcoming suggestions.. every time I see the lume shots on NTH site .. I think PVD ...


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

MarkLH said:


> I know Doc is always soliciting / welcoming suggestions.. every time I see the lume shots on NTH site .. I think PVD ...
> 
> View attachment 14227891


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

I didn't say DOC was thinking PVD... just ME </end>

<LOL>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkLH said:


> I know Doc is always soliciting / welcoming suggestions.. every time I see the lume shots on NTH site .. I think PVD ...
> 
> View attachment 14227891


You need to calibrate your monitor.

Here, let me help...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double post.

Conveniently appropriate meme...


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

Ooooohh,.,. my new desktop wallpaper .. < be still my wallet >

I'm not sure how well this will help control my discipline to not click " order "


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Good to hear!
> 
> We'll leave Marcellus strapped to the pommel horse. We don't want him going Medieval on anyone's a$$...


No worries, Winston Wolf will fixitt.......


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> It's you.
> 
> The pace of my strap-change frequency could most accurately be described as "glacial".
> 
> ...


What are you doing in England Doc and where abouts over here are you visiting?


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

I love the look of a faded black leather strap on the BVB.









Doc Savage


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

MarkLH said:


> Ooooohh,.,. my new desktop wallpaper .. < be still my wallet >
> 
> I'm not sure how well this will help control my discipline to not click " order "
> 
> View attachment 14227993


I bet you visit chiropractor often having screen set up like that.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

I just got a Coloreb Rust colored distressed strap for my BVB.. but: this Black leather strap looks AWESOME ! ..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> What are you doing in England Doc and where abouts over here are you visiting?


Family holiday. We'll be in London, Bath, Bristol, and Exeter.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

MarkLH said:


> I know Doc is always soliciting / welcoming suggestions.. every time I see the lume shots on NTH site .. I think PVD ...
> 
> View attachment 14227891


Me too. I was running down the steps to get my credit card when I realized it wasn't all black.:-(;-)


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

If you want PVD, you don't need a doctor. You need a watchmaker.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

MarkLH said:


> Ooooohh,.,. my new desktop wallpaper .. < be still my wallet >
> 
> I'm not sure how well this will help control my discipline to not click " order "
> 
> View attachment 14227993


Nice desktop wallpaper!  But not good for discipline. My lack of discipline went out the window. Real early this morning way past my bedtime.  When i clicked on " order "


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

BVB visits Lake Superior









Doc Savage


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> It's you.
> 
> The pace of my strap-change frequency could most accurately be described as "glacial".
> 
> ...


30pounds is .... load of... weight. congrats to you. You should resize them man. I can't stand my bracelet or strap feeling loose. It's like my pants is about to fall. I can't stand seeing people wearing their watches that is so loose that it falls to bottom of their palm. But that's just me. I am OCD.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

There's a watch I've been reading a lot about lately. Everyone seems to be going crazy for them, posting pics, talking about how amazing they are, what good value for the money, blah, blah, blah.

But they're always sold out, blah, blah, blah.

I just found a guy selling one, "near-mint", for $150 under full retail, from a WUS user with a stellar transaction reputation, so I figured I'd pick one up, and see what all the fuss is about.

You guys want to see it?

Seller's pic:









https://www.watchuseek.com/f30/fs-n...ial-no-date-sapphire-lumed-bezel-4973039.html


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Excellent photos and price. That frontal picture is the money shot!


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> There's a watch I've been reading a lot about lately. Everyone seems to be going crazy for them, posting pics, talking about how amazing they are, what good value for the money, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> But they're always sold out, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> ...


I was twelve minutes late to owning my first NTH.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

There are just too many good choices, Chris. What pairs best with my Holland? :think: Tempted by the BVB, Odin Blue Date, Skipjack, hoping for another Nazario (Sauro return ), or grab one of the last DevilRays... kudos to you, regrets to my wallet. There’s no right or wrong answer here, I know. Have a great trip and congrats on getting gilt’ed. |>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bktaper said:


> I was twelve minutes late to owning my first NTH.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll sell it to you, for...wait for it...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

In all seriousness...

I haven't added a new NTH to my own collection since last summer, when I grabbed a Renegade and Scorpene Blue. I've wanted to grab a BVB, but the demand has been too high for me to justify it, and it's not like I really NEED another watch.

But, $525 for a BVB, from a guy with a stellar record as a seller, someone I actually KNOW? C'mon. That's just too stupid-good a deal to pass up.

As soon as I made the decision to announce the $25 price increase going into effect tomorrow, I knew it wasn't enough. I *KNOW* the BVB should be $700.

Okay, okay, yes, my production costs are much lower than that, obviously, so, on the one hand, it's stupid for me to pay $525 for a BVB, but...I just bought a damned nice, easily-worth-$700 watch, for $525, and I *KNOW* I could flip it, tonight, and make $50.

No, I'm not flipping it. At least, not tonight.

Gabe says there are marks on the back of the lugs from strap changes. That relieves me of feeling like I have to send it to a retailer or sell it to a customer. I'll wear it for a while, see if it's a keeper, then decide if I want to keep it or sell it.

When we got the Carolina's in, my dad was asking if I had one around so he could see the gilt dial in person. I'd shipped them all. We got the first Barracudas in January, but they were all sold before we even got them. We got the next batch in last month - all sold before we got them.

So now I have one I can show him, and it's the no-date, which is the version I'd want for myself, and I got a good deal, and took one off the market, so the one on eBay now should go for more.

It's a win-win all around.


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> It's a win-win all around.


I would disagree with that

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> There are just too many good choices, Chris. What pairs best with my Holland? :think: Tempted by the BVB, Odin Blue Date, Skipjack, hoping for another Nazario (Sauro return ), or grab one of the last DevilRays... kudos to you, regrets to my wallet. There's no right or wrong answer here, I know. Have a great trip and congrats on getting gilt'ed. |>


Odin - both of mine, the protos, are out on tour with the Fanmen. I'm looking forward to getting them back. I might need to pull a blue no-date from the next batch we make. The proto is a with-date.

Skipjack - I debated grabbing one from the first batch. Held off. Still thinking maybe I'll grab one from the next batch. I think the one at the WatchDrobe in Hong Kong is the last one left available anywhere, until we get the next batch in.

Nazario - Keil can't find his white Nazario Sauro. He thinks someone walked off with it at a GTG. I was seriously tempted by the blue Azzurro, and I'm thinking I might pick up the new Ghost, or the one we have planned next, which is also going to be HAWT.

DevilRay - I have three, in the colorways I liked best. There's one Orange no-date left in my inventory. I reckon that aside from the DevilFox version at Watch Wonderland, there MIGHT be 4-6 pieces of the other, standard colorways left with retailers, maybe less. You almost never see them for sale.

Only because I'm sort of a minimalist when it comes to material things, I kind of understand the notion of "quality over quantity", when guys on the forum talk about it. But, on the other hand, I don't feel like our watches are disappointing in any way when it comes to quality, and their affordability makes it easier to rationalize having a MUCH bigger collection than I really need, much less actually afford/justify if I was buying them all, rather than making them.

I was making an effort to slim the collection down, but I think I might be about to beef it up again. I don't really "miss" anything I sold off, but we've got some cool stuff in the pipeline, and I may eventually get used to the idea of owning a bunch of watches which rarely if ever get worn.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bktaper said:


> I would disagree with that
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://www.ebay.com/itm/NTH-Barrac...553339?hash=item261edcf0fb:g:eGYAAOSwAz1c~Mp-


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

^^^^^^^^
Thanks for the heads up. Still not comfortable buying international yet. But I will keep my eyes open and get one soon. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Bktaper said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> Thanks for the heads up. Still not comfortable buying international yet. But I will keep my eyes open and get one soon.


Euro to dollar exchange rate is favorable (prices excl. VAT). Look at Serious... 100% recommend (I'm in WA state).


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> Only because I'm sort of a minimalist when it comes to material things, I kind of understand the notion of "quality over quantity", when guys on the forum talk about it. But, on the other hand, I don't feel like our watches are disappointing in any way when it comes to quality, and their affordability makes it easier to rationalize having a MUCH bigger collection than I really need, much less actually afford/justify if I was buying them all, rather than making them.
> 
> I was making an effort to slim the collection down, but I think I might be about to beef it up again. I don't really "miss" anything I sold off, but we've got some cool stuff in the pipeline, and I may eventually get used to the idea of owning a bunch of watches which rarely if ever get worn.


I thought I wanted that, picked up a Speedy Pro (which I loved), but just sold it. Most people probably think I'm crazy... but it was just too much, too fast for me. Maybe I'll try again someday. I'm more comfortable sub-$1k. Odin and Skipjack are right there up too and the Omega influences don't hurt.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Ps, once I see Los Angeles, Seawolf or Virginia on the dial I’ll also be happy.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

well someone is selling the nazario azzurro for more than 100usd more in the local market here as well. it was 877usd then the price dropped to 789usd.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Family holiday. We'll be in London, Bath, Bristol, and Exeter.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Hope you have a lovely time over here Doc and hope the weather has improved for you by the time you arrive! We've been having a lot of rain this week......


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Twehttam said:


> I thought I wanted that, picked up a Speedy Pro (which I loved), but just sold it. Most people probably think I'm crazy... but it was just too much, too fast for me. Maybe I'll try again someday. I'm more comfortable sub-$1k. Odin and Skipjack are right there up too and the Omega influences don't hurt.


Thanks for sharing the experience.

I toy with the idea of something like a speedy pro, but I just feel so much more content wearing, traveling, hoarding, etc. with $1000 and less watches.

Lately I've been thinking about serious consolidation, but then again, my current pieces do represent a lot of refinement in my tastes, variety, etc.

In Doc's y-axis (collecting approach) and x-axis (time) chart, I think I'm at the inflection point between "gimme all the watches!" and "I just want a handful of quality everyday regular wears, even if I have to give up some variety." We'll see if I tip or not.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> In all seriousness...
> 
> I haven't add a new NTH to my own collection since last summer, when I grabbed a Renegade and Scorpene Blue. I've wanted to grab a BVB, but the demand has been too high for me to justify it, and it's not like I really NEED another watch.
> 
> ...


Funny story, (well maybe to me)

I was in line right after you. I REALLY wanted the non date version as I have the dated version. I asked that seller to ask his buyer if he would rather have the with date version. Didnt know that what you that snagged it lol


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

ck2k01 said:


> Thanks for sharing the experience.
> 
> I toy with the idea of something like a speedy pro, but I just feel so much more content wearing, traveling, hoarding, etc. with $1000 and less watches.
> 
> ...


Thats been my issue too. I really want to save up for an older Seamaster GMT, but then I think, would I REALLY travel with an $1800 watch? I have a nice Citizen world time and an SKX mod with a 12 hour bezel that do just fine also. Being rational is annoying sometimes


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

The Speedy Pro is beautiful and was always my personal Grail, but I also had a hard time wearing it - having $4k strapped to my wrist. Mostly with my 2.5 year old crawling all over me all the time (a good thing) and just the fear of banging it into something. I’m just not ready to have expensive things yet.  My thought was the same... can I consolidate down to 2 watches (my other keeper is a Weiss my wife got me recently for my 40th, which isn’t going anywhere)? I love the idea, but Im not there yet. I’m sure I’ll try again someday.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Twehttam said:


> The Speedy Pro is beautiful and was always my personal Grail, but I also had a hard time wearing it - having $4k strapped to my wrist. Mostly with my 2.5 year old crawling all over me all the time (a good thing) and just the fear of banging it into something. I'm just not ready to have expensive things yet.  My thought was the same... can I consolidate down to 2 watches (my other keeper is a Weiss my wife got me recently for my 40th, which isn't going anywhere)? I love the idea, but Im not there yet. I'm sure I'll try again someday.


The Speedy looks good with some character. I went with the hesalite version for my 30th birthday and love it. Already have some scratches after taking it on a 2 week vacation to Europe and I barely notice.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



basso4735 said:


> The Speedy looks good with some character.


You're absolutely right and I will try again, I'm sure.

In the meantime, I'll enjoy this and whatever else Chris can convince me to buy.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Twehttam said:


> The Speedy Pro is beautiful and was always my personal Grail, but I also had a hard time wearing it - having $4k strapped to my wrist. Mostly with my 2.5 year old crawling all over me all the time (a good thing) and just the fear of banging it into something. I'm just not ready to have expensive things yet. ? My thought was the same... can I consolidate down to 2 watches (my other keeper is a Weiss my wife got me recently for my 40th, which isn't going anywhere)? I love the idea, but Im not there yet. I'm sure I'll try again someday.


I satisfied the vintage chrono itch with a Seiko Pogue. Not the same but still oozes some cool


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Thanks for sharing the experience.
> 
> I toy with the idea of something like a speedy pro, but I just feel so much more content wearing, traveling, hoarding, etc. with $1000 and less watches.
> 
> ...


https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/feel-free-graph-along-1172930.html


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



basso4735 said:


> The Speedy looks good with some character. I went with the hesalite version for my 30th birthday and love it. Already have some scratches after taking it on a 2 week vacation to Europe and I barely notice.


I love my speedy pro. Was it expensive? Yes (but not $4k expensive)! Is it going to get scratched/dinged? Yes! It's meant to be worn, why spend money on something you aren't going to wear.

Also, polywatch is awesome...makes the hesalite look brand new.

Doc's watches aren't cheap either.... so get one (or more), wear them, and complain to Doc when they get patina-ed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Ya, I'm still trying to reconcile my appreciation of a refined and representative collection within a theme or themes vs. the freedom of minimalism.

For example, on the one hand, I have one fully lumed textured white dial, a few 70s-styled cushion cases, a red bezel-ed diver, and a now discontinued dressy GADA. All of these are rare or becoming rarer, and they all add something to my collection overall. I greatly appreciate everything that they uniquely offer. Moreover, I have several GMTs, a complication that really resonates with me on an emotional level.

Yet on the other hand, I know that functionally, I rarely if ever wear a white dial, a classic but non-conservative case shape, or non-traditional colors (e.g., on the bezel). My style also tends toward casual rather than dressy. Furthermore, the romance of a GMT is somewhat lost when you need to set the GMT and hour hand every time you wear one since I have several, none of which get worn enough for the power reserves to matter.

Thus, my Nazario Sauro, Avalons, DevilRay, 50 Atmos, SARB033, Seaforths, Horizons, and Ocean One 39 GMT Premium are all in somewhat precarious positions.

Functional/practical considerations also point against "stepping up" for me in some instances. For instance, servicing a mechanical chrono is pricey. Mechaquartz just offers so much value prop for the complication. And I'm never shelling out for a vintage Tudor Sub. Too delicate, too expensive.

Doc's Vintage Blue Nacken is perfectly functional aesthetically and engineering-wise, and emotionally, I need to have at least one NTH in the box to rep my support for a Philly guy with great design chops and an approachable, educative, and humorous style to our pay-to-play hobby. Similarly, while I've considered it, flipping my gen. 2 blue C.Ward to try a gen. 3 seems inconsistent with my attachment to it as the manifestation of my first "step up" or "I think I'm really into watch collecting now" watch. And not having an SKX seems inconsistent with having a physical acknowledgment of what I learned about the hobby by delving into modding (I've modded or bought modded at least 5 over the years).

We'll see. As Doc's time chart evidences, collecting is a constant state of flux, so you just gotta roll with it and enjoy the unexpected turns of the journey.

I guess the best middle path I can offer is my box-size recalibration rule. If I gotta fit them all in into, for me, 12 slots, there should be some anxiety when I venture way over, and there's gotta be some stings when I then make myself flip some pieces that I really like. Yet I do get to enjoy whatever sized variety seems personally wise (for me it's always been 12 for no logical reason). Collectively, it balances keeping the hobby fresh, and emotionally stimulating (like a movie or play) because of both the joy and the loss experiences involved. In short, Doc's self actualization 1-in-1-out rule as a philosophy, like minimalism, that often guides and recalibrates me, rather than a state I consistently maintain.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Ya, I'm still trying to reconcile my appreciation of a refined and representative collection within a theme or themes vs. the freedom of minimalism.
> 
> For example, on the one hand, I have one fully lumed textured white dial, a few 70s-styled cushion cases, a red bezel-ed diver, and a now discontinued dressy GADA. All of these are rare or becoming rarer, and they all add something to my collection overall. I greatly appreciate everything that they uniquely offer. Moreover, I have several GMTs, a complication that really resonates with me on an emotional level.
> 
> ...


Buy a bigger case.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Buy a bigger case.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Naturally have thought about it.

Or how about the ol', "welI, I gotta do something with all these watch rolls micro guys keep throwing in with their watches."

Or to further evidence the pathology, "I mean, I should display some on a padded square on my night stand."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bktaper said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> Thanks for the heads up. Still not comfortable buying international yet. But I will keep my eyes open and get one soon.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Always buy the seller.

If it helps, I'm pretty sure the current US customs duty exclusion amount is $800.

With shipping, all in, the price is ~$587, which seems like a decent deal if the "mint condition" description is accurate. That's almost $100 less than the next batch of new Barracudas will cost, if you can get one.

Then again, it's an auction. You might end up paying more than that. But, still, if you want one, can't hurt to put a bid in, and see what happens.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/feel-free-graph-along-1172930.html
> 
> View attachment 14230129


Ha, I blew through this chart in 3 years and am content at D. right now. I would add quality to the variety. Just because NTH does not charge premium on fluff does not mean its not up there with the rest of them worn by celebrities and that have been around for 50+ years. But who knows maybe in 20-30 years we end up chatting here about remembering how we used to be able to buy a Nazario and Barracuda for 650 and now its 2k. Maybe thats the natural progression in the watch world.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Oh, and since I won't shut up with WoTs about things we all already know (to the point that it's long been graphed), some shots of an NTH watch.

Hands are even correctly oriented to make up for the thread clogging 



















(Not my first rodeo. I know the unspoken rule that if you want to blab, you take a picture too.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Buy a bigger case.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Don't. Just dont. Im overflowing and about to put my old small box to use. That might catch more attention than I want caught.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

docvail said:


> Always buy the seller.
> 
> If it helps, I'm pretty sure the current US customs duty exclusion amount is $800.
> 
> ...


Doc, I know about the exclusion for the first $800 of value. 
When I looked at the US Customs tables a while back I found more than one table for watches and could not tell which one would apply.
Do you happen to know the rate that applies after the initial exclusion amount?


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Wandering France with the blue Odin.


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

Doc.. 

My wife has asked you stop making such fantastic watches that are making me compulse on NTH.. .. I told her you are merciless..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redzebra said:


> Doc, I know about the exclusion for the first $800 of value.
> When I looked at the US Customs tables a while back I found more than one table for watches and could not tell which one would apply.
> Do you happen to know the rate that applies after the initial exclusion amount?


It depends, and actually, I'm not sure the $800 exemption actually applies, the more I look into it.

Is it automatic or hand-winding? How many jewels are in the movement(more or less than 17)? Is it made of precious or base metal? What country is it coming from?

For the sake of an example, let's assume it's an automatic, more than 17 jewels not made of precious metal.

Go here - https://hts.usitc.gov/?query=910221

If you plug "wrist watch" into the search bar, it will give you general results, typically starting with 9101, but that series is for cases of precious metals. If you want base metals, that's the series starting with 9102. If it's an automatic, that's 910221, and from there, you can drill down further by getting more specific. If you look at 910221, I think the .70 ending would be correct.

In the case of a Barracuda Vintage Black from Australia - see the "Special" column. It would be duty-free, because we have a Free-trade agreement with Oz.

Ignore column 2, that's for Cuba and North Korea.

See the General column. If it was coming from some country without a free trade agreement, and it was marked as 9102.21.70, it would be $1.53 per watch, pus 4.2% of the declared value of the case, plus 9.8% on the the declared value of the strap/bracelet.

How would they know?

When I'm the importer/exporter, we provide this info on the customs forms. Otherwise, I think they (the customs agents and couriers) just guess.

Let's say they average it out to 7% on top of the $1.53. There's your answer - 7% of declared value + $1.53, plus whatever brokerage fee the courier charges.

***EDIT* - Sorry, that's not right, because for some reason, they only value the case and bracelet/strap. They don't value the movement, which is a big chunk of the value of the watch. My vendors will usually provide the breakdown of value when they create shipping docs, but when we've had to do the breakdown on import, we'd usually say the movement is half the cost, then the case is maybe 60% of the remainder, and the bracelet is 40% of the remainder.

So...take an example of $600 declared value on a watch you're getting from an overseas seller. If they say the case/bracelet are $300, and the case is 60% of that, then that's $180 on the case, and $120 on the bracelet. Now do the math. There's your answer. $1.53, plus $7.56 on the case, and $11.76 on the bracelet. You wind up at ~$21 plus $15-$20 brokerage fee from FedEx.**

When I bought a Certina DS-1 from a dealer in Spain, back in ~2013/2014, I vaguely recall I paid ~$600, and that I got dinged for maybe $40 by FedEx, of which, I think $15 was their fee. I have no idea what value the seller declared. Using the example above, ~$35-$40 sounds about right.

Looks like the free-trade countries list is:

Australia
Bahrain
Canada
Chile
Columbia
Africa (entire continent?)
Caribbean Basin (all?)
Israel
Jordan
S. Korea
Morocco
Mexico
Oman
Dominican Republic/Central America (all?)
Panama
Peru
Singapore


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Buy a bigger case.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Do it. But, when you do buy the bigger case, keep the old one handy. You will need it for "overflow" when your new bigger case with room for everything you could ever dream of buying is full. Trust me.

Edit: obviously, HWA has trodden the same path.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Sonic_driftwood said:


> Do it. But, when you do buy the bigger case, keep the old one handy. You will need it for "overflow" when your new bigger case with room for everything you could ever dream of buying is full. Trust me.
> 
> Edit: obviously, HWA has trodden the same path.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, of course, you need the new and the old. Shrewd advice. But don't forget about the third box to keep by a window for solar watches.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

docvail said:


> It depends, and actually, I'm not sure the $800 exemption actually applies, the more I look into it.
> 
> Is it automatic or hand-winding? How many jewels are in the movement(more or less than 17)? Is it made of precious or base metal? What country is it coming from?
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to try to untangle this... I remember looking at those HTS Code tables... still as clear as mud.
I also attempted to get a handle on this by looking at the lowest possible applicable rate and the highest one in an effort to create a bracket of best/worst case scenarios when I was considering the purchase of an older Tudor that comes up on rare occasion. The few times it came up in the past year and a half it was in Japan and in the EU. The unfortunate element of uncertainty about how customs would apply the code has kept me from going ahead as I could not get a handle on the eventual cost. In the mean time, I keep hoping that one will come up stateside (but not in Florida to avoid a 6.5% sales tax) so I would not have to deal with the importation issues.

As I was typing this I remembered the story I heard on NPR about the dispute over classifying the Xmen figure... is it a doll or a toy? One has double the import duty than the other and that makes a difference to a business.
The other story I remembered is the one about the snuggie... is it an article of clothing or a blanket? Both went to court for a ruling as I recall.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redzebra said:


> Thanks for taking the time to try to untangle this... I remember looking at those HTS Code tables... still as clear as mud.
> I also attempted to get a handle on this by looking at the lowest possible applicable rate and the highest one in an effort to create a bracket of best/worst case scenarios when I was considering the purchase of an older Tudor that comes up on rare occasion. The few times it came up in the past year and a half it was in Japan and in the EU. The unfortunate element of uncertainty about how customs would apply the code has kept me from going ahead as I could not get a handle on the eventual cost. In the mean time, I keep hoping that one will come up stateside (but not in Florida to avoid a 6.5% sales tax) so I would not have to deal with the importation issues.
> 
> As I was typing this I remembered the story I heard on NPR about the dispute over classifying the Xmen figure... is it a doll or a toy? One has double the import duty than the other and that makes a difference to a business.
> The other story I remembered is the one about the snuggie... is it an article of clothing or a blanket? Both went to court for a ruling as I recall.


So...maybe this will help.

When you import, if the shipper/seller hasn't already provided one to the courier, all of the big, private couriers (UPS/FedEx/DHL) use a basic, one-page worksheet, which they'll give you if/when the shipment gets held for customs clearance.

Here's an example - http://www.fedex.com/downloads/kr_english/shipdocuments/watch_worksheet.pdf

They're all pretty generic. I've found that none of the couriers care which version you use, so long as the info needed is there. Usually there's another couple lines, for the tracking/waybill number (same thing), date, shipper/importer name, etc.

Talk to the seller. See if you can get them to agree to use the worksheet you provide, or work out with them in advance how they're going to classify the watch, and break down the value. Then, download one, fill it out, and email it to the shipper/seller, to include when they ship.

The total value has to equal the declared/insured value, but beyond that, you can divide it up any way you like.

If, let's say, you're buying an expensive watch, but it's just made of steel, no precious metal components, then, arguably, most of the value is in the movement. Even a $10k vintage Tudor Snowflake Sub might not be taxed too heavily if you break it down this way (as an example):

$10k total

$9500 - movement

$300 - case

$200 - bracelet

Do the math - 4.2% of the case is $12.60. Then, 9.8% of the bracelet is $19.60. Add $1.53, and a brokerage fee of $20, you're at $53.73.

It's kind of crazy, but...it doesn't appear that the customs charges are going to change a whole lot just based on the total. It's mostly driven by the way the forms are filled out.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

docvail said:


> So...maybe this will help.
> 
> When you import, if the shipper/seller hasn't already provided one to the courier, all of the big, private couriers (UPS/FedEx/DHL) use a basic, one-page worksheet, which they'll give you if/when the shipment gets held for customs clearance.
> 
> ...


Thanks again Doc. As you explain it, the process of preparing the form seems to put a fair amount of control in the exporter's/importer's hands v/s the customs agent as they have a say in how the pie is divided value wise and consequently the amount of the duty paid.

I also remember seeing that form while doing my research and wondered if the jewels in the movement would need to be broken out separately in the value schedule.

On a separate note, I'd like to say that I enjoyed your interview with the former owner of Deaumar (or the owner of the former Deaumar)... in particular, listening to how his initial product pricing approach influenced his later pricing and the eventual effect on his business model... lots of lessons learned in this episode... would make a good case study at your micro university.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redzebra said:


> Thanks again Doc. As you explain it, the process of preparing the form seems to put a fair amount of control in the exporter's/importer's hands v/s the customs agent as they have a say in how the pie is divided value wise and consequently the amount of the duty paid.
> 
> I also remember seeing that form while doing my research and wondered if the jewels in the movement would need to be broken out separately in the value schedule.
> 
> On a separate note, I'd like to say that I enjoyed your interview with the former owner of Deaumar (or the owner of the former Deaumar)... in particular, listening to how his initial product pricing approach influenced his later pricing and the eventual effect on his business model... lots of lessons learned in this episode... would make a good case study at your micro university.


You don't need to value the jewels, though there seems to be some difference between how they view movements with up to 17 jewels and those which have more than 17, as most modern movements do. I haven't dug into it, because I haven't needed to.

Re - our workshop...

It's *MICROBRAND* university. Pretty much everything I've learned about running a business like this, to include what I've learned from discussions with or observations of other microbrand owners, is fodder for the course. Deaumar/Tony is no exception. His isn't the only story like it, but it's the one I know the best.

One thing I see over and over again is that very few brand owners seem to know how to analyze the economics of a business like this. I see guys who are underpricing their products by 40% asking questions online about import costs, which might be 2% of the landed costs. A lot of brand owners' focus is on the wrong things.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Early pocket watches used 5 to 7, and in some cases 11 jewels and could be regulated very well within COSC standards. The minimum number of jewels in a manual wind watch is 17. An automatic winder can add 8 more for 25 which is found in the eta 2824 base movements. Selitta added one more making theirs a 26 jewel version. More complicated movements may require extra jewels but usually any more than 25-26 are added for the marketing value rather than true functionality.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Safe travels Doc.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You don't need to value the jewels, though there seems to be some difference between how they view movements with up to 17 jewels and those which have more than 17, as most modern movements do. I haven't dug into it, because I haven't needed to.
> 
> Re - our workshop...
> 
> ...


Do you have a moment to explain landed costs?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Early pocket watches used 5 to 7, and in some cases 11 jewels and could be regulated very well within COSC standards. The minimum number of jewels in a manual wind watch is 17. An automatic winder can add 8 more for 25 which is found in the eta 2824 base movements. Selitta added one more making theirs a 26 jewel version. More complicated movements may require extra jewels but usually any more than 25-26 are added for the marketing value rather than true functionality.


Thank you, Mr. Wiki.

I should have been more clear - they (customs officials) seem to care whether or not the movement has more or less than 17 jewels. I therefore assume there's some difference in how the import duties are calculated. I never looked into THAT - the difference in customs duties - because I haven't had to, because all the movements we've used are over 17.

I have done the basic watch-geek thing of looking into what jewels are for, within a movement, and why there are more or less.

I'm not entirely certain about the "marketing value" stuff, which I've also read. Surely there must be movements in which the points of contact between parts - which is to say, the points of friction - would be higher, and thereby warrant more jewels. It makes sense to me that a more complex movement would have more. The Sea-gull ST19 chrono movement had over 30, I think. Chronos = more complicated.

But what do I know? I'm not a watchmaker. I don't need to know all there is to know about the inner workings of a movement in order to run my business. If I need watchmaking skills, I have a watchmaker.

Anyhoo...I should shut down the laptop now. Leaving for the airport in 40 minutes.

I'm out.

PEACE!


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Thank you, Mr. Wiki.
> 
> I should have been more clear - they (customs officials) seem to care whether or not the movement has more or less than 17 jewels. I therefore assume there's some difference in how the import duties are calculated. I never looked into THAT - the difference in customs duties - because I haven't had to, because all the movements we've used are over 17.
> 
> ...


Have a good flight and trip, amigo.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



redzebra said:


> Do you have a moment to explain landed costs?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Ugh.

Only a moment.

Landed costs = the cost of getting everything you plan to deliver to your customer to your doorstep.

Example: The cost of producing the watch + the cost of the box + shipping them both here + customs duties + any ancillary/incidental costs = landed costs.

Customs duties are not the biggest part of that, nor is shipping. They're a pretty minor component of landed costs, in the big picture. So, to me, it's kind of silly for someone under-pricing their product, by a lot, worrying over customs duties, or trying to save $1-$2 per unit on shipping.

Start by not underpricing your product, then focus on how to save a few dollars per unit on stuff like shipping, or how to manage a 150% increase in something that's only 2% of your costs. I mean, that's 2% to 5%. What difference does it make when you're underpricing by 40%-50%? It's not like the customs costs are the thing that's killing your business. If you're worried about something going from 2% of your costs to 5% of your costs, you're probably doing something wrong on the top part of your P&L.

This is one of those things I tend to harp on in the workshop - when you're working off too low a markup of costs, the effect of a small increase in costs is magnified, because your margins are too thin to simply absorb it. You HAVE to maintain a minimum markup, in order to have the margins necessary to run your business effectively.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Don't. Just dont. Im overflowing and about to put my old small box to use. That might catch more attention than I want caught.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nature abhors a vacuum when I got a bigger watch big I filled it now I have 2


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

Speaking about costs, would it be possible to make every NTH watch to come with one complimentary strap? Steel bracelet is awesome, but some of the models are such a strap monster. I like playing around with straps.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Doc is currently incommunicado as he flys over the Atlantic to the UK.

As for extra straps, just pick out your own favorites, otherwise the rest of us are going to have to pay for your second strap that we will probably not use, like that black one you like and I would not put on an NTH.

One of the great things about microbrands is the affordable price.

Extra straps are easy to find and there are so many choices, who would know which one to supply that would satisfy most of us picky WIS?


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Recent posts on the psychology (psychosis?) and life cycle of watch collecting have been interesting. Here is one of my irrational behaviors.

I'm close to convinced that the new Christopher Ward C60 38mm GMT could be the perfect crown jewel in my collection. The nicest watch I can imagine needing. But that costs ~$1000! I'm still getting used to $650 as a "normal" price for a watch. It was healthier when I thought my $400 Seiko Sumo was an extravagant splurge. Speaking of that watch, looking back now it is an incredible value for "just" $400.

$1000 still seems right out of the question. But $1925 worth of Subs at once? Why the heck not?! :-! To be fair, if I keep the new Nacken, my old WILL be sold. So call the total bill $1425. Still over the no way Jose $1000 threshold.

Now I'm in the somewhat uncomfortable speed dating phase of trying to decide if I could love the watches long term. Enough to keep them all.

And then I might go into a frantic mini buying phase. Sometimes to make peace with spending too much, I buy other watches I'm interested in. So they can all be on hand at the same time with overlapping return windows. Of course, the doomsday scenario is that I fall in love with ALL of them.

That CW tab on my browser keeps calling to me.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Does anyone else use a size-o-matic sock for test driving a new watch around the house?

Pro tip: It can be folded over the clasp to prevent desk scratches if you need to type out a post on WUS.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

3WR said:


> Does anyone else use a size-o-matic sock for test driving a new watch around the house?
> 
> Pro tip: It can be folded over the clasp to prevent desk scratches if you need to type out a post on WUS.
> 
> ...


This. Is. BRILLIANT!!!! I have a few watches that are BNIB that I am not sure I want to sell, but didn't want to resize the bracelet and ruin that BNIB status.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

hwa said:


> If you want PVD, you don't need a doctor. You need a watchmaker.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Having a watch cerakoted black by a watchmaker is one thing. That's not much more than getting it bead blasted. PVD/DLC coating is something else entirely. Most of the places I've seen charge more than the price of an NTH watch to get said watch PVD coated.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)




----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)




----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> View attachment 14232565


I still find it hard to believe doc's got the finish to this level.

Really great shots 

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

wtma said:


> Speaking about costs, would it be possible to make every NTH watch to come with one complimentary strap? Steel bracelet is awesome, but some of the models are such a strap monster. I like playing around with straps.
> ]


Yes! I need more "free" natos to throw away.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Back on the metal for the first time in a while!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

So pretty.

My precious.

HAGWE

Toronto Wine and Spirit festival, here I come!!!!









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wtma said:


> Speaking about costs, would it be possible to make every NTH watch to come with one complimentary strap? Steel bracelet is awesome, but some of the models are such a strap monster. I like playing around with straps.


Complimentary, as in, free?

There's no such thing, not even free shipping. It's all built into the price.

No, we're not adding a strap.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkLH said:


> Doc..
> 
> My wife has asked you stop making such fantastic watches that are making me compulse on NTH.. .. I told her you are merciless..


You told her right.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I like how the subs are holding up well under magnification. Not many watches manage that. And it's fun to discover more detail.

The logos on clasp, dial, crown are rather well done. The clasp in particular is _crisp._









The crown's lume has a lovely texture...









And the lume on the bezel is glazed-over to protect it from stuff. The "pip" has actual elevation, in fact.









Whereas on the dial, the lume can be left in its normal, almost sand-like state.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Nice pics ^. 

What was the inspiration on the Santa Cruz design?


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Complimentary, as in, free?
> 
> There's no such thing, not even free shipping. It's all built into the price.
> 
> ...


Since serious watches gave me not only a complementary stroop waffle but also a black nato when I bought the bvb ...

There just might be the rare case of free stuff 

Brought to you by Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

wtma said:


> Speaking about costs, would it be possible to make every NTH watch to come with one complimentary strap? Steel bracelet is awesome, but some of the models are such a strap monster. I like playing around with straps.


Unbelievable

Doc Savage


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The Dolphin on that tire rubber strap _does_ look real nice.

But if it comes down to a choice between a strap or a bracelet, it's bracelet all the way. Getting aftermarket bracelets that fit watches properly is exceptionally difficult.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> ...Whereas on the dial, the lume can be left in its normal, almost sand-like state.


We went to the ends of the earth to find lume which was almost sand-like in its state.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> We went to the ends of the earth to find lume which was almost sand-like in its state.


No kidding, I *really* want to compare it side by side with Ginault's.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> I like how the subs are holding up well under magnification. Not many watches manage that. And it's fun to discover more detail.
> 
> The logos on clasp, dial, crown are rather well done. The clasp in particular is


Beautiful pics

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Poerger (Sep 24, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> The Dolphin on that tire rubber strap _does_ look real nice.
> 
> But if it comes down to a choice between a strap or a bracelet, it's bracelet all the way. Getting aftermarket bracelets that fit watches properly is exceptionally difficult.


Also: If there is the choice - always buy a watch on a bracelet. To buy it later on is usually way too expensive.

I just like the options. TBH I didn't wear the bvb on its bracelet that much. I tried different options but I think I will go back to it. When it's colder I might try some leather straps but I can't stand them in the warmer days...

Brought to you by Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> We went to the ends of the earth to find lume which was almost sand-like in its state.


That bit of marketing sounds familiar. If you close the clasp is it hand built in America


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> No kidding, I *really* want to compare it side by side with Ginault's.


The brand may be full of bs but it's nicley made BS and that lume is nice.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Still wandering France.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Amazing shots, X2-Elijah! What a beaut.

Does anyone want to take some Blue Odin macros and post them so I can spend some money?


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Tanjecterly said:


> Still wandering France.


Haha, great timing. Looks great! |>


----------



## gokce (May 10, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> View attachment 14232555


Very nice photos. It was @X2-Elijah's, @hwa's, and @EL_GEEk's (@watchexposure) beautiful photos that got me started with my first NTH, which was a black DevilRay. That watch was so superb that I just had to try the Subs, and it was all downhill from there. For every NTH that I buy, I use my willpower not to buy three others.

Alas, I just succumbed to the new Nazario Azzurro; it looks like a stunner with that blue dial. I'll post a photo when I get it.

Thank you all for the nice photos.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> Ps, once I see Los Angeles, Seawolf or Virginia on the dial I'll also be happy.


"Ethan Allen" doesn't have quite the ring to it that those do. But if there were a somewhat conservatively styled NTH with that name, it would be an automatic Christmas gift for my dad. Los Angeles or Sturgeon would likely make it under the tree as well.

Sturgeon actually sounds like a cool watch name to me.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Sturgeon could work. Edit: DOH


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Also down with Sturgeon b-)

My current WIS conundrum is whether to pick up an Odin Blue Date now or wait for an Odin Blue No Date 90S5. Leaning toward the latter as it won’t be an everyday wear, but I’ve never been known to have patience. ;-)


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Also down with Sturgeon b-)
> 
> My current WIS conundrum is whether to pick up an Odin Blue Date now or wait for an Odin Blue No Date 90S5. Leaning toward the latter as it won't be an everyday wear, but I've never been known to have patience. ;-)


Some inspiration it is awesome


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ojibway Bob said:


> So pretty.
> 
> My precious.
> 
> ...


Watch fans, wine, spirits and an NBA championship. Toronto has got it going on!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Twehttam said:


> Euro to dollar exchange rate is favorable (prices excl. VAT). Look at Serious... 100% recommend (I'm in WA state).


I'm considering buying from Serious Watches next time just to get the stroopwaffle.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

It’s worth it.  Really, though, they’re tops. I email/annoy them every once in awhile and ask them to check things like “Hey, can you go through all your Odin Blue No Dates and see if a 90S5 snuck in there?” and they don’t yell at me. They even write back to me with my salutation. I’m sure all of Chris’ other partners are just as great, but I’m sold with my buddies in the Netherlands.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> Amazing shots, X2-Elijah! What a beaut.
> 
> Does anyone want to take some Blue Odin macros and post them so I can spend some money?


Those are great shots! Macros are fun. When they are of someone else's watch. If my eyeballs can't detect a flaw, I don't need to know about it.

I'm just barely mature enough not to tell a story this reminds me of. Involving being tasked with administering a rather personal cleaning procedure in preparation for induced labor. I'd not previously had occasion to gaze, in fully lit conditions, directly upon a certain area in all its glory (or potential horror) and was nervous of what image may be seared into my memory.

Well look at that, I guess I'm not mature enough to hold back. Just enough to sanitize it a bit.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> I'm considering buying from Serious Watches next time just to get the stroopwaffle.


It's hit or miss whether you get the stroopwafel.

Doc Savage


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Happy Father's Day to all the WIS dads out there!!!


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Happy Dad's day to all us Dads. 

Cori, glad to see that your watch didn't get 'decorated' along w/ that great card.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Happy Father’s Day.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Happy Father's Day, Lads, from Merry Old England!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Jeez doc you look positively scrawny in that pic.


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

Did you just bump into Ed Sheeran in his neck of the woods???


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Happy Father's Day, Lads, from Merry Old England!


Cheers Doc! Key question inquiring minds need to know: Everyone wearing pants??? :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Slant said:


> Did you just bump into Ed Sheeran in his neck of the woods???


My son gets that a lot.



Horoticus said:


> Cheers Doc! Key question inquiring minds need to know: Everyone wearing pants??? :-!


My son gets *THAT* a lot.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> My son gets *THAT* a lot.


He could always go with a kilt. When in Rome...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Lemme know if you need or want a recommendation for restaurants...

Have a great time, you earned it.


----------



## eleven pass (Oct 6, 2018)

Any thoughts on strap colors for the Brown Barracuda?


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Happy Father's Day to all the dads!









And enjoy your break, Chris.


----------



## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> It's worth it.  Really, though, they're tops. I email/annoy them every once in awhile and ask them to check things like "Hey, can you go through all your Odin Blue No Dates and see if a 90S5 snuck in there?" and they don't yell at me. They even write back to me with my salutation. I'm sure all of Chris' other partners are just as great, but I'm sold with my buddies in the Netherlands.


Mark at Serious Watches is just great. And a heck of a nice guy. Him and John at WatchGauge are tops. Sure the rest are too. You said, I've never been known to have patience.  Did you give in and get the Odin Blue No Date yet? I love mine.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I’ll let you know tomorrow. ;-)


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Bahia at the ballpark.

Or

"Bahia, Baseball, Battlestar Galactica" for fans of American adaptations of British sitcoms.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I think there was mention of a recent change to the bezel action. I handled three from the latest batch. They all seemed to have a little sharper, louder, clickier bezel action than a few older subs I'm comparing them against. Feels like high quality. No complaints. But I have to say, for my own personal taste, my first NTH sub (Nacken Modern Blue from Jan. 2019) has the best bezel action I've ever experienced. It was one of the things that endeared me to the brand. Super solid, no play. Just a little more muted sound and feel.

I don't know if that is pre-change vs. post-change. (If I'm even remembering correctly that there was supposed to have been a change.) Or if it was just the normal slight variation from one watch to the next. Whatever it was, that Nacken's bezel is a joy.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Nope. Alpha bracelet took a while to put it in with some modification of the hollow end link.. super cheap stamp clasp that bit into my skin.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Happy Father's Day, wis dads. This is how we do down south - frog leg appetizers!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

3WR said:


> Bahia at the ballpark.
> 
> Or
> 
> ...


"Wait...Michael!!!!!!"

Doc Savage


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

My last night with the SantaFlake.
Thank you so much Doc. I love this watch...it joined me for a number of adventures.
It is the perfect size and beautifully built. You sir are an artist


----------



## jeffreyt (Mar 31, 2015)

This morning I'm wearing my new brown Barracuda on a brown Hirsch strap.

It's so pretty!!!

Jeff


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

One Seiko for sale and perhaps a few other pieces that don't get wrist time. One chrono I am eyeing and that's it. Thinking of retiring. Näcken gets 90% wrist time. I might also pick up another NTH for the wife (that I can steal and wear  )

Don't wear my KS that often as its hot and I don't want the sweat to rust away the (ironic) gold nugget on the caseback. G-Shocks get wrist time in the gym as I feel like a douche wearing the Näcken there (being in my late 20s) 
Like, I can do garden work and play tennis with the Näcken but the gym feels weird.

I feel like there is no point into buying if I don't wear it, might also have something to do with the fact that I have a new rifle incoming


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> One Seiko for sale and perhaps a few other pieces that don't get wrist time. One chrono I am eyeing and that's it. Thinking of retiring. Näcken gets 90% wrist time. I might also pick up another NTH for the wife (that I can steal and wear  )
> 
> Don't wear my KS that often as its hot and I don't want the sweat to rust away the (ironic) gold nugget on the caseback. G-Shocks get wrist time in the gym as I feel like a douche wearing the Näcken there (being in my late 20s)
> Like, I can do garden work and play tennis with the Näcken but the gym feels weird.
> ...


Is that an AliExpress bracelet? Looks good?

Also, Vienna is likely the most beautiful town I have visited (not sure where in Austria you reside)


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Is that an AliExpress bracelet? Looks good?
> 
> Also, Vienna is likely the most beautiful town I have visited (not sure where in Austria you reside)


Its a Rolex bracelet, decent apart from the weirdo clasp.

Thanks mate, its my city


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> Its a Rolex bracelet, decent apart from the weirdo clasp.
> 
> Thanks mate, its my city


Looks nice, not sure I would want to spend that much on a bracelet. 

Two of my favorite photos happened in Austria. I could never get tired of that view.

While the pic may not have you believe it, my son had a blast in the salt mine tour.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



PixlPutterMan said:


> View attachment 14239085


Your kid up front looked like a mannequin at first glance!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> Your kid up front looked like a mannequin at first glance!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


We are not usually ones to buy photos, but when I saw that face I just had to


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Wow... we did the same salt mine tour, same kind of overalls, same slide to get down, except like... 40 years ago... (damn, I'm old...)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

eleven pass said:


> Any thoughts on strap colors for the Brown Barracuda?


Yes.

It looks amazing on the stock stainless steel bracelet, with flush end-links.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Lemme know if you need or want a recommendation for restaurants...
> 
> Have a great time, you earned it.


What do you have in Exeter?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> I think there was mention of a recent change to the bezel action. I handled three from the latest batch. They all seemed to have a little sharper, louder, clickier bezel action than a few older subs I'm comparing them against. Feels like high quality. No complaints. But I have to say, for my own personal taste, my first NTH sub (Nacken Modern Blue from Jan. 2019) has the best bezel action I've ever experienced. It was one of the things that endeared me to the brand. Super solid, no play. Just a little more muted sound and feel.
> 
> I don't know if that is pre-change vs. post-change. (If I'm even remembering correctly that there was supposed to have been a change.) Or if it was just the normal slight variation from one watch to the next. Whatever it was, that Nacken's bezel is a joy.


I'm not aware of any change in the bezel action. It's possible there's been some change, but I doubt it. The bezel construction isn't overly complex, and the click spring-plate isn't something that was in need of a change.

The click-spring plates can have varied action. It's possible for one to have more or less resistance/noise than average. I think they tend to soften up with use.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Seikogi said:


> G-Shocks get wrist time in the gym as I feel like a douche wearing the Näcken there (being in my late 20s)
> Like, I can do garden work and play tennis with the Näcken but the gym feels weird.


Put it on a not-too-bright nato, and it'll be just fine.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Yes.
> 
> It looks amazing on the stock stainless steel bracelet, with flush end-links.


Yeah but does it come in _beige_?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I'm not aware of any change in the bezel action. It's possible there's been some change, but I doubt it. The bezel construction isn't overly complex, and the click spring-plate isn't something that was in need of a change.
> 
> The click-spring plates can have varied action. It's possible for one to have more or less resistance/noise than average. I think they tend to soften up with use.


The tightness seems to vary between watches at random (or an unknown pattern). Across one's I've had/have, the 1st and 3rd were the best (both early runs). All have been good, but not equally so.
Soundwise, yes, the newer models have a more metallic click sound. Maybe something to do with the reworked bezel insert or shape or whatever it is that also prevents the same disassembly that worked on older models.

I wonder how long until watch bezels get to the point of engineering where car doors are at, when the *sound* of closing is being tuned to feel/sound nice and hefty and solid even when it technically doesn't have to be. So far I don't think any watch brand has advertised their bezel sound... yet...


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

X2-Elijah said:


> So far I don't think any watch brand has advertised their bezel sound... yet...


If Harley Davidson made watches.. they'd register/copyright.. the Bezel sound...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah but does it come in _beige_?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> What do you have in Exeter?


Expensive French: Cote Brasserie
Local flavor: Harry's
Gastropub: Blue Ball (not my favorite name choice)
Italian: Carluccio's
Coffee shop: Bill's Restaurant

1st choice, traditional pub: The Old Fire House


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

eleven pass said:


> Any thoughts on strap colors for the Brown Barracuda?





docvail said:


> Yes.
> 
> It looks amazing on the stock stainless steel bracelet, with flush end-links.


Doing what Doc said today...









But if you must, here it is on dark brown leather and perlon...


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

redzebra said:


> View attachment 14239777


Perlon FTW! I've been putting everything I can on perlon since the weather turned warm. :-!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yep, been wearing the SC on the bracelet for a couple of days. It's a very good bracelet. Clasp is perfect (before going into auto-adjusting spring systems and the like), links are brilliant, endlinks... well, Chris already knows.


----------



## eleven pass (Oct 6, 2018)

docvail said:


> Yes.
> 
> It looks amazing on the stock stainless steel bracelet, with flush end-links.


Thanks, I'll have to keep my eye out for one.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Also, Vienna is likely the most beautiful town I have visited (not sure where in Austria you reside)


Seconded. I was only there for a few days several years ago, but I absolutely loved everything about it. Vienna's Musikverein competes with Berlin's Konzerthaus for title of the best concert hall in the world, and it lives up to the hype. Absolutely spectacular sound. I definitely need to take a more leisurely vacation there sometime soon. I also have a big picture of the Palmenhaus cafe on my office wall.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Seikogi said:


> One Seiko for sale and perhaps a few other pieces that don't get wrist time. One chrono I am eyeing and that's it. Thinking of retiring. Näcken gets 90% wrist time. I might also pick up another NTH for the wife (that I can steal and wear  )
> 
> Don't wear my KS that often as its hot and I don't want the sweat to rust away the (ironic) gold nugget on the caseback. G-Shocks get wrist time in the gym as I feel like a douche wearing the Näcken there (being in my late 20s)
> Like, I can do garden work and play tennis with the Näcken but the gym feels weird.
> ...


I love it!! The choice to slightly brushed the case on the sides is an excellent choice, it doesn't get any finger prints on it so it always looks clean. I have a thing that shiny parts needs to stay shiny. So I wipe my watches like 10-20 times a day during use. That rolex bracelet thickness of the bracelet goes well with the thinnest of the case. it looks like one straight line except for the weird clasp.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

liquidtension said:


> ... I have a thing that shiny parts needs to stay shiny. So I wipe my watches like 10-20 times a day during use...


I'm glad to learn that I am not the only one here with this obsession!

Doc Savage


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> I'm glad to learn that I am not the only one here with this obsession!
> 
> Doc Savage


And I am glad that I am not the only one too!! shiny brother


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Took some carefully Dremel work to reshape the end link, but for $15 on Ali I'm impressed.

Jubilee should be here in a few days.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I tried with a cheapo $15 aliexpress bracelet. Fits the scorpene by bending the springbar but not any from the latest batch. I don't have a dremel (and don't think I want to go to that extend)


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Took some carefully Drexel work to reshape the end link, but for $15 on Ali I'm impressed.
> 
> Jubilee should be here in a few days.


Nice!

Doc Savage


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Quality is obviously no where near then stock bracelet, but switching up looks is always fun.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

And that, gentlemen, is how it's done.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_6126.jpg


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> DevilRay - I have three, in the colorways I liked best. There's one Orange no-date left in my inventory. I reckon that aside from the DevilFox version at Watch Wonderland, there MIGHT be 4-6 pieces of the other, standard colorways left with retailers, maybe less. You almost never see them for sale.


There's one less, new DevilRay available. |>

Fingers crossed for some Stroopwafel!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Pont du Gard.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Two crown Tuesday. Vanilla Azores on faux croc from CheapestNatoStraps










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Is something going on with the forum? I can't seem to access any posts/pages after p.1318 of this thread.


----------



## LogisticsCzar (Jun 23, 2017)

docvail said:


> Is something going on with the forum? I can't seem to access any posts/pages after p.1318 of this thread.


Yeah it's loosing it's damn mind today, PMs have been messing up too.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LogisticsCzar said:


> Yeah it's loosing it's damn mind today, PMs have been messing up too.


I can't load anything after page 1318 on my PC, but I'm getting the content on my mobile with Tapatalk.

Weird...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## LogisticsCzar (Jun 23, 2017)

docvail said:


> I can't load anything after page 1318 on my PC


Aren't you supposed to be on vacation?


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

LogisticsCzar said:


> Aren't you supposed to be on vacation?


Doc feels safe when he knows he can post a WoT, so I'm sure he's just checking in to make sure he could if he wanted.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LogisticsCzar said:


> Aren't you supposed to be on vacation?


I am, but I'm also the owner of a business, so a complete disconnect from the world is not yet in the cards for me.



basso4735 said:


> Doc feels safe when he knows he can post a WoT, so I'm sure he's just checking in to make sure he could if he wanted.


Also, this.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Same here, 1318 on PC, but all the posts on my cell phone access through Chrome, no tapatalk


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

I thought it was only me, logged out and then back in again and I can see all the postings now.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yep, had the same issue until just now. Something went fubar with WUS database.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Nice to see everyone again.


----------



## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

All has been well here. Must of been lucky. Alot of other times response is so slow it hangs. And have to reboot.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

New strap for the devilray.
However bracelet is amazing so dont want to take it off just yet.









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

DuckaDiesel said:


> New strap for the devilray.
> However bracelet is amazing so dont want to take it off just yet.
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like a good match!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> Looks like a good match!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Yep  black dial on the Devilray matches grey on Erikas strap perfectly  
I do have to put loctite on the screws so good excuse to mount the strap

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)




----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Turns out vintage is my jam!

A little softer, warmer personality than the modern. The 90S5 (??) movement with two crown positions is a neat little bonus. Modern's blue lume is cool. Vintage's green lume is way brighter. Vintage appears to have more lume - full width of flat markers vs. centers of raised ones. Bezel situation on this particular vintage isn't as nice as this particular modern in several regards. (To be fair, this modern's bezel is incredibly nice.) That's OK. I'll consider it part of the vintage charm.

Anyone interested in a gently pre-loved modern no date?

** Also, check out this simulated preview of a larger Sub. **


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

wtma said:


>


Interesting strap. Details, please?


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)




----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

3WR said:


> Interesting strap. Details, please?


It's custom wool strap (leather backed) by an IG strapmaker @bacusaleather


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_6141.jpg


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

If vintage is your thing, hi-dome acrylic brings the bling










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Sorry for the mess and dust, but I figured it was worth posting.









I found an aftermarket beads-of-rice bracelet with solid endlinks that fit the Subs quite well. The NTH subs' bracelet clasp is 100% compatible with this BOR bracelet too. Springbars are not bending at all, so little risk of breakage.

















The clasp it comes with isn't bad either, but the NTH clasp is ofc better. The bottom forked bits have the same profile, so it'll feel the same either way.









It's the Watchgecko "Solid Ends Beads of Rice Watch Strap for Geckota G-02". I noticed that the G-02's specs were very similar to the subs (same lug width, lug-to-lug, case diameter), figured it would be worth trying. Experiment succeeded . So if anyone missed the NTH BOR one-time offer, this is the next best shot.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> Sorry for the mess and dust, but I figured it was worth posting.
> 
> View attachment 14244911
> 
> ...


Looks great! Thanks for the heads up on the Beads of Rice band.

Doc Savage


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Sorry for the mess and dust, but I figured it was worth posting.
> 
> View attachment 14244911
> 
> ...


Very cool. If there comes a point where I'm not broke in the future and have the funds for a new NTH sub then I'll be picking one these bracelets up.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Next episode of Doc's House Calls is up.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

X2-Elijah said:


> Sorry for the mess and dust, but I figured it was worth posting.
> 
> I found an aftermarket beads-of-rice bracelet with solid endlinks that fit the Subs quite well. The NTH subs' bracelet clasp is 100% compatible with this BOR bracelet too. Springbars are not bending at all, so little risk of breakage.


Very nice findings and thanks for sharing. Both NTH and Gecko's BoR seems to be different. Here's the NTH one comparing to your photo.

View attachment 14244911


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 14244123


I particularly like how the bezel pip points down to 12hrs marker which then the "t" in the nTh logo which is the Broad Arrow aka crows foot is pointing back at it with perfect alignment.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Blue goes well here.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment S59YrXpI.jpeg


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 14246723


Great pic. Has this one replaced the blue Scorpene?


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Since we are all feeling a bit blue.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Since we are all feeling a bit blue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have no idea how much that hurts my OCD about my watches touching anything metal and risking scratches.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

SteamJ said:


> You have no idea how much that hurts my OCD about my watches touching anything metal and risking scratches.


I was worried I might get some OCD brother's twitching, sorry for that.

Unfortunately I work around roofing materials and I have heavy hands so I can be a bit rough. This bracelet is marked with sooo many scratches already. What is a bit more Wabi-Sabi if it ain't for a photo op.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

basso4735 said:


> Great pic. Has this one replaced the blue Scorpene?


Sold the Scorpene a while back. This one is just a loaner.


----------



## velvet396 (Dec 11, 2013)

Probably going to sell my blue Riccardo. Can't believe it's been six years!! It's just not getting time in the rotation, but I'll probably kick myself later because damn does that blue & red just pop.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Since we are all feeling a bit blue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bit blue, too










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

hwa said:


> Bit blue, too
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your Blue too Boo Drew? I love you!!


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

My favorite status update:









It's almost Pumpkin time!


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Twehttam said:


> My favorite status update:
> 
> View attachment 14247095
> 
> ...


The best, isn't it?


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Since we are all feeling a bit blue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More than a bit...










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Since we are all feeling a bit blue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Clasp has the usual desk diving marks"

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Since we are all feeling a bit blue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nailed it


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Every once and a while eBay works in my favor. Snagged this beauty still in plastic wrap for a smidge over 500. I'm also hating myself bc I said one nth is enough. The barracuda is enough. I didn't want to be a person that doesn't try other brands bc of my tunnel vision for something I like(nth). After buying, feeling I was missing something, then selling a few watches I ended up right back where I started with wanting the Odin. Great job nth. I dig the watches.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Nikita70 said:


> Nailed it


Punny!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Mikefable said:


> ...I ended up right back where I started with wanting the Odin. Great job nth. I dig the watches.


Looks excellent on the NATO! Great score.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Oh, yeah...









Heavy Metal, indeed!









Time to try that rubber strap...


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Inspired by Mike...









Time to order a 22mm... color thoughts? Debating Olive, as above, Black (stealth Bond or solid Black), or Gray...

:think:


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Twehttam said:


> Inspired by Mike...
> 
> View attachment 14248505
> 
> ...


Barton's smoke and orange stripe RAF strap.

https://www.bartonwatchbands.com/co...-orange-nato-style-strap?variant=158878892058

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Done (enabler!). :-d


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Twehttam said:


> Done (enabler!). :-d


Doesn't count unless you order at least 3 straps lol

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Wore the Azores today










Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

one of the fav part of the watch. This besides looking awesome, it is used for watchmaker, or buyer to assess how much the watch has been polished or if there was any done prior to selling.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

deerp derpp double trouble..


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Twehttam said:


> Inspired by Mike...
> 
> View attachment 14248505
> 
> ...


That looks awesome! Can't go wrong with the green!!! Making me want a orange nth now!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Saw this on the news. Couldn't help but thinking next Sub XL will look like this


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> Saw this on the news. Couldn't help but thinking next Sub XL will look like this


But does the stated height include the crystal or not? I hate when they exclude the crystal just to make the watch seem thinner.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

CMFord said:


> But does the stated height include the crystal or not? I hate when they exclude the crystal just to make the watch seem thinner.


Wait, what? So 28mm is not the total number? I bet Doc can beat that


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Meanwhile, at a prominent alehouse in Mayfair, London.........









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I find it amazing that Doc got the right Pantone color for the blue Odin as it matches the waters off the French Riviera. The city fathers of Antibes should pay Doc a royalty.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

^^^ Deffo The French Riviera trumps Mayfair, paradise on Earth, enjoy your vacation.....

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

Forever8895 said:


> Saw this on the news. Couldn't help but thinking next Sub XL will look like this


I have no idea what this is ("Omega designed a ... tank? Literal bathysphere for your wrist? UWO?"), so I did the old "Search Google for this image" in Chrome, and the results made me chuckle:


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

It's the Seamaster Planet Ocean Ultra Deep Professional. Just broke the record for deepest diving watch at 10,928 meters.

https://timeandtidewatches.com/omega-seamaster-planet-ocean-ultra-deep-professional/


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

uvalaw2005 said:


> It's the Seamaster Planet Ocean Ultra Deep Professional. Just broke the record for deepest diving watch at 10,928 meters.
> 
> https://timeandtidewatches.com/omega-seamaster-planet-ocean-ultra-deep-professional/
> 
> View attachment 14250419


Yes, Google did not fail me - the real links were just below the telephoto lenses 

I'd like to know how Omega "tested" this watch to 15,000 meters. And how thick that crystal is!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forever8895 said:


> Saw this on the news. Couldn't help but thinking next Sub XL will look like this


Not chunky enough.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Meanwhile, at a prominent alehouse in Mayfair, London.........
> 
> View attachment 14249567
> 
> ...


Would you send this to me, Alan?

I promise not to tell anyone you're the bald one.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Omega Ultra Deep?

Okay now I can't wait for the "NTH Topnotch Profound".


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Would you send this to me, Alan?
> 
> I promise not to tell anyone you're the bald one.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Thy will be done............

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Now that is what people should be calling a turtle.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

See if I don't stick that dial in an NTH case. Someone send me one.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

D6 today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

docvail said:


> Not chunky enough.


Invicta's all "I told you so!" right now.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

What is the difference between the D Ray and D Fox?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> What is the difference between the D Ray and D Fox?


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Wonderful thank you


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Wonderful thank you


You weren't the first to ask, just the first since I got tired enough of people asking to feel motivated enough to create that side-by-side comparison.

So...thanks for being the one guy who cared enough to keep the exercise from having been a total waste of my time.


----------



## eleven pass (Oct 6, 2018)

docvail said:


> Yes.
> 
> It looks amazing on the stock stainless steel bracelet, with flush end-links.


He's right, folks!

Also, can anyone enlighten me on the connection between the NTH Barracuda and it's fishy namesake? Wondering if it has more in common with that particular fish than, say, a bass or whale shark.


----------



## bjjkk (Oct 20, 2011)

JakeJD said:


> Yes, Google did not fail me - the real links were just below the telephoto lenses
> 
> I'd like to know how Omega "tested" this watch to 15,000 meters. And how thick that crystal is!


Omega tested it the same way Rolex did. They attached it to a submarine at the Mariana trench. ABTW has an article up if your interested


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

eleven pass said:


> He's right, folks!
> 
> Also, can anyone enlighten me on the connection between the NTH Barracuda and it's fishy namesake? Wondering if it has more in common with that particular fish than, say, a bass or whale shark.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_submarine_classes

They're all on that list.


----------



## eleven pass (Oct 6, 2018)

docvail said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_submarine_classes
> 
> They're all on that list.


Excellent, thanks!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

bjjkk said:


> Omega tested it the same way Rolex did. They attached it to a submarine at the Mariana trench. ABTW has an article up if your interested


But is it okay to wear in a jacuzzi?


----------



## jeffreyt (Mar 31, 2015)

Sorry, bad post.

Jeff


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

eleven pass said:


> He's right, folks!
> 
> Also, can anyone enlighten me on the connection between the NTH Barracuda and it's fishy namesake? Wondering if it has more in common with that particular fish than, say, a bass or whale shark.


NTH Subs all named for submarine classes

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_submarine_classes
> 
> They're all on that list.


I respect your deep research methodology.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

Have a good weekend









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## bjjkk (Oct 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> But is it okay to wear in a jacuzzi?


As long as your butt naked, should be good


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Roy Hobbs said:


> Have a good weekend


Looking good!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> I respect your deep research methodology.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


True Story -

Before the Page & Cooper event last night, we met up with three of the guys in attendance, at a little cafe a few blocks away.

As we walked from the cafe to the pub, I got the usual questions - what led to my starting a watch brand being the most common. I should have that one printed on cards I hand out at get-togethers.

But then there was this one:

GUY: "How do you name them?"

ME: "What, the Subs?"

GUY: "Yeah, is there some logic to it?"

ME: "The Amphion was a riff on the classic British, MOD-issued MilSub, so we named it after a British submarine. Same with the Oberon. The Santa Cruz is an Argentinian submarine, and it's got the same colors as Argentina's flag. That was dumb luck, total coincidence, but I took full credit, and acted like I planned it that way. Don't even get me started on the Näcken."

GUY: "What about the Scorpène?"

ME: "I liked that name. I looked at the design, and said, 'Eff it. That's the Scorpène'."


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Mrs. Dub Rubb recently changed work schedules, and wakes up earlier than I have to by about an hour. So subsequently so do I. A byproduct of this is I have abandoned my alarm clock on my nightstand and replaced it with my NTH. Hit that bad boy with a UV flashlight before bed and set it on the nightstand. 

I was surprised that when I did the same thing last night with my turtle(my go to standard for lume), it was much harder to read come 5am. Renegade FTW!!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Just getting my wallet prepped for the next round of Subs... I thought my wife would throw something at me, but a text exchange about picking a strap color for my DevilRay ended with a response from her saying, "But I meant maybe you need the Holland watch in orange?". Unfortunately, I missed the Zwaardvis but, man, she's the best.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> Mrs. Dub Rubb recently changed work schedules, and wakes up earlier than I have to by about an hour. So subsequently so do I. A byproduct of this is I have abandoned my alarm clock on my nightstand and replaced it with my NTH. Hit that bad boy with a UV flashlight before bed and set it on the nightstand.
> 
> I was surprised that when I did the same thing last night with my turtle(my go to standard for lume), it was much harder to read come 5am. Renegade FTW!!
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


But but but...muh Seiko lumes!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> ... she's the best.


This is all I can think of...


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

DRay









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> But is it okay to wear in a jacuzzi?


And the shower can kill it


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

MikeCfromLI said:


> And the shower can kill it


I heard that it's really the soap that is bad for its "liquid metal" case seals. The shampoo eats that liquid metal up. 22.5 tons of pressure got nothing on jojoba seed oil.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Well.....this won't be come off the wrist for a while...


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

bjjkk said:


> Omega tested it the same way Rolex did. They attached it to a submarine at the Mariana trench. ABTW has an article up if your interested


Um, they didn't dive to 15,000 -- just shy of 11,000, actually. But Omega says tested to 15,000. Ergo... ??


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

JakeJD said:


> Um, they didn't dive to 15,000 -- just shy of 11,000, actually. But Omega says tested to 15,000. Ergo... ??


I was curious too. Looks like it's possible to test @200,000psi in the lab (or one lab!). 15,000m is 22,000psi.

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The lug profile is kinda cool on that omega. Like manta ray mouth flaps.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Anyone with a black Odin try an orange rubber strap yet? Thinking that could be a nice beach/summer combo.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

basso4735 said:


> Anyone with a black Odin try an orange rubber strap yet? Thinking that could be a nice beach/summer combo.


Do it! Do it!


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Anyone with a modern blue nacken date wanna trade for a lnib blue Odin?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Doing the tacticool inside-the-wrist wear rn. Feeling very stealthy.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I enjoy the favorite Sub game, but to be honest, even though it's not my typical style, every time I put this thing on, it leaves me with a sense of "magnum opus."

The NTH "showing what we're capable of" (flexing) is palpable and impressive in the metal.

The modest lug to lug makes this work down to my 6.5" wrist.

The only thing that challenges this low end of the wrist fit spectrum is the bracelet. I love it's uniqueness. But the long male end link does result in one side falling a bit vertically down the side of my wrist rather than wrapping like the other side. This is a non-issue for slightly larger wrists, and even a tad nit picky at my size (i.e., "it's a chunky diver, who cares?").

I tend to wear the DR on shark mesh to better accommodate my wrist and cut down on weight, and I may experiment with an incoming BoR with curved end links, bought for my SKX, to see if it fits.

Indeed, somewhat relatedly to a BoR, I feel about the DR like Doxa enthusiasts feel about Doxas. Cult passion.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Blue on blue.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I enjoy the favorite Sub game, but to be honest, even though it's not my typical style, every time I put this thing on, it leaves me with a sense of "magnum opus."
> 
> The NTH "showing what we're capable of" (flexing) is palpable and impressive in the metal.
> 
> ...


Curious about the BOR fit, please share when you get it. 
Looks good on your wrist, dont over think it 
Mine says hi. 
This is my favorite watch ever.










Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Agree, you two.









48mm L2L is my absolute max, which keeps the Subs in play (and their thinness is so so nice), but the DR is ideal. I love it.

Not only the L2L, but I appreciate the visual "shrinking" of the dial with the Orange not extended fully to the bezel.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Curious about the BOR fit, please share when you get it.
> Looks good on your wrist, dont over think it
> Mine says hi.
> This is my favorite watch ever.
> ...


Roger that.

Gracias. I never do 

Looks great on the Erikas 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Twehttam said:


> Agree, you two.
> 
> [/ATTACH=CONFIG]14254463[/ATTACH]
> 
> ...


Gray/orange, slate black/gray, and orange/gray.

We make a good trio of DR bros 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I enjoy the favorite Sub game, but to be honest, even though it's not my typical style, every time I put this thing on, it leaves me with a sense of "magnum opus."
> 
> The NTH "showing what we're capable of" (flexing) is palpable and impressive in the metal.
> 
> ...


I have similar issues on the nth subs, whereby one side is lop-side my wrist is not flat on the top side. But I had to do a few adjustment to the links to make it "balance" but using more micro adjustments rather than removing the links. My micro adjustment is towards the last two (depending on water retention), and since then I've never had the issue. This is similar with the other subs like squale or seiko so yeah...

about the end-links, what I gathered so far is rolex 5-digit fits, so that would make ginault fit, and if ginault fits the sarb033, and strapcode sells bracelets for sarb033.. and I think I saw pics of ginault also fitting into the alpinist, and they carry bracelet for alpinist too..


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



liquidtension said:


> I have similar issues on the nth subs, whereby one side is lop-side my wrist is not flat on the top side. But I had to do a few adjustment to the links to make it "balance" but using more micro adjustments rather than removing the links. My micro adjustment is towards the last two (depending on water retention), and since then I've never had the issue. This is similar with the other subs like squale or seiko so yeah...
> 
> about the end-links, what I gathered so far is rolex 5-digit fits, so that would make ginault fit, and if ginault fits the sarb033, and strapcode sells bracelets for sarb033.. and I think I saw pics of ginault also fitting into the alpinist, and they carry bracelet for alpinist too..


Interesting. So you're saying a Strapcode SARB033 bracelet should fit NTH subs? Angus could be a fun option.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Doc must be silently stewing about us constantly looking for aftermarket subs' bracelets that are, in all likelihood, downgrades compared to the original v2 bracelet.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Interesting. So you're saying a Strapcode SARB033 bracelet should fit NTH subs? Angus could be a fun option.


It is just speculation at this point of time because ginault fits nth sub and fits sarb033 as well.. I have no experience in the trying sarb033 on the nth sub (yet). if anyone has it maybe they can try?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Doc must be silently stewing about us constantly looking for aftermarket subs' bracelets that are, in all likelihood, downgrades compared to the original v2 bracelet.


It's nothing to me.

If I sold the watch on a strap, and people wanted to swap it out, I wouldn't be bothered. Likewise, if people want to try other bracelets, have at it.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)




----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Angus is a thick bracelet in ratio the case thickness on the NTH. I had a SARB033 with Angus and thought it was too beefy for the SARB.

Uncle Seiko I think makes a slimmer jubilee, wonder how that would fit.



liquidtension said:


> 3WR said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting. So you're saying a Strapcode SARB033 bracelet should fit NTH subs? Angus could be a fun option.
> ...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Look at it this way: if we own multiple NTHs, there’s nothing wrong with wanting some strap variety. Chris has good reasons for making a single bracelet; we have good reasons for looking for alternatives unless and until he decides (which he says he’ll never do) to offer alternatives.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

$7 Jubilee FTW










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

rpm1974 said:


> $7 Jubilee FTW


$7? Are those CNC'd end links?


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

After stalking this thread for a while without making a purchase, my mailman brought me a gift on Friday.







I am happy to finally be the proud owner of a NTH Renegade.







The watch is even better looking in person. This feels like my first proper watch purchase as my other watches are two designer watches(Kenneth Cole, Tommy Bahama) and a Shinola Guardian. Those were all watches I acquired before falling down this WUS rabbit hole almost two years ago. Expect to get sick of Renegade pics.  Then again I am pretty lazy so that may be the last one from me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Bktaper said:


> After stalking this thread for a while without making a purchase, my mailman brought me a gift on Friday. [/ATTACH]14256335[/ATTACH]
> I am happy to finally be the proud owner of a NTH Renegade.[/ATTACH]14256383[/ATTACH]
> The watch is even better looking in person. This feels like my first proper watch purchase as my other watches are two designer watches(Kenneth Cole, Tommy Bahama) and a Shinola Guardian. Those were all watches I acquired before falling down this WUS rabbit hole almost two years ago. Expect to get sick of Renegade pics.  Then again I am pretty lazy so that may be the last one from me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Welcome to the rabbit hole.

Enjoy the Sub!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bktaper said:


> After stalking this thread for a while without making a purchase, my mailman brought me a gift on Friday.
> View attachment 14256335
> 
> I am happy to finally be the proud owner of a NTH Renegade.
> ...


Wow. Jumping from quartz fashion watches into the deep end of the micro pool. That's skipping a few steps on the road to WISdom. My first post-WUS purchases were all under $300 - Seiko SKX007, a used Tissot PRS516, and a VSA Infantry Officer.

What's next, flogging undersized vintage watches on ill-fitting bracelets, or jumping right to haute horology?

Let's watch and see what he does...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have been doing my research trying to decide what I would like without wanting to waste countless dollars that I don’t have to get there. Last year I went to Wind-up in NYC (I’m originally from there, so free room and board) to get a better idea of what these watches looked like in person. Then visited some jewelry stores to try on more established and subsequently more expensive watches. I wasn’t planning on making a purchase till after District Time (I was going to stay with a friend in Baltimore), but my will power failed. The wait and the research has been part of the fun and the experience. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Welcome to the rabbit hole.
> 
> Enjoy the Sub!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks. Glad to be down here....so far.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Ginault bracelet.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> Ginault bracelet.


With their end-links? Interesting


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

This blue is a chameleon


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Bktaper said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I have been doing my research trying to decide what I would like without wanting to waste countless dollars that I don't have to get there. Last year I went to Wind-up in NYC (I'm originally from there, so free room and board) to get a better idea of what these watches looked like in person. Then visited some jewelry stores to try on more established and subsequently more expensive watches. I wasn't planning on making a purchase till after District Time (I was going to stay with a friend in Baltimore), but my will power failed. The wait and the research has been part of the fun and the experience.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dang, that's more due diligence that most ppl here (including I ) have ever done. Nice!


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

MikeCfromLI said:


> liquidtension said:
> 
> 
> > Ginault bracelet.
> ...


Yup. No fiddling just sat into place. I think it's how the end link are designed it fits many other different cases.


----------



## capitalisttool_mt (Mar 30, 2011)

A dive watch diving


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Bktaper said:


> I am happy to finally be the proud owner of a NTH Renegade.


Welcome and congrats!

I am having Renegade fever and my Visa card may be the only cure.

Just can't decide if I want the date window or not...


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

X2-Elijah said:


> Dang, that's more due diligence that most ppl here (including I ) have ever done. Nice!


My wife says there is something wrong with me. I reminded her that she is stuck with me through sickness.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Twehttam said:


> Welcome and congrats!
> 
> I am having Renegade fever and my Visa card may be the only cure.
> 
> Just can't decide if I want the date window or not...


Hahaha There are worse decisions to have to make. I was torn on which watch to buy but was sure any of them would hit the spot for me. The Holland you just sold was one of the ones I had been thinking about. The brown and blue looks dynamite in pics.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

liquidtension said:


> Yup. No fiddling just sat into place. I think it's how the end link are designed it fits many other different cases.


I suspect that most, if not all, are based on (or look-alikes of) the old Rolex Sub.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

liquidtension said:


> Yup. No fiddling just sat into place. I think it's how the end link are designed it fits many other different cases.




Rocking mine on a Seaforth today.










The Ginault clasp is to die for. Really, any Glidelock-type clasp is. (Although the cheaper no names are typically sharp at the edges, perhaps calling for filing.)

I'm slowly moving toward rigging all my bracelets, whenever possible, with Glidelock-type or divers extension functionality, unless the feature comes stock. It's just so nice to be able to make on the fly micro adjustments throughout the day for comfort.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Perhaps. No accident the Ginault is a match for the 16610. But it certainly wasn’t doc’s intention to have those parts fit interchangeably with the nth subs. If it were, then it would’ve been nice for him to match the inserts, too!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Roger that.
> 
> Gracias. I never do
> 
> ...


*Incomplete Test of Uncle Seiko Beads of Rice Bracelet, with Curved End Links, on NTH DevilRay
*
*WARNING:* WoT coming 'atcha.

Speaking of WISdom, back to aftermarket bracelet experimentation.

I just got the Uncle Seiko BoR in.

I decided to quickly check it for fit on the DR, since the end links are hollow (and thus there's a little wiggle room when it comes to the range of potential fits).

The Seiko-style fat spring bars seemed at a glance like they'd be too thick for where the DR lug holes are (but don't quote me on this, I didn't spend much time trying).

Indeed, the hollow end link spring bar holders are pretty big to accommodate the fatties, but it still seemed like it just might fit if you shoved the end link and a narrower spring bar in there and wrestled with the latter a bit.

Using the stock gauge spring bars that come with the DR bracelet, it does seem like it's a tight but acceptable fit. The brushing match isn't perfect. And since the beads that connect to the end link have holes that accommodate a fatty spring bar, I assume there'd be some play at the connection using a thinner gauge spring bar.

(Headed out of town for a few days at the moment, so no time to check now. But lest I be accused of causing someone to buy this bracelet before I've 100% confirmed that it works.)

Nonetheless, it is interesting as an apparently viable aftermarket bracelet option (BUT HOLD OFF until I confirm in a few days that the connecting beads aren't too long to actually connect). Perhaps for when you need to take a break from cutting yourself on the DR stock bracelet clasp  (Not complaining-I'll take the occasional arm scratch for divers extension functionality )

Pretty cool (maybe).




























*EDIT UPDATE:* Was 10 minutes into the drive when I realized I forgot my passport 

Upside is that I knew I'd be annoyingly curious about this post while away, so I just spent 10 minutes following up on the above.

In short, the bracelet (end links and connecting links inclusive) JUST works.




























But I hesitate to recommend it unless you're dying for the Doxa bracelet look.

The primary reason being that the bottom side of your lugs are going to take a beating (it's the outside "wings" of the underside of the end links that punish you), and to a lesser extent a spot or two on the case inside the lugs, as you wrestle it all into place with your tool.










The second reason being that I suspect the end link-connecting link gap would be narrower if you could fit a fat spring bar in there (which I doubt).

Third, the DR case is uniquely shaped; the goodness of fit of the US BoR end links vis-a-vis the lugs varies depending on the angle at which you look.

But, if you're cool with your DR being a rough and tumble diver (I am, as the stock clasp is already a bit scraped up, and the watch was conceived of as part tank anyway), and you really like BoR, it is an option that technically fits well enough . . .

Anyway, there you have it. BoR with curved end links on the DR. I think up to this point I've only ever seen someone try straight end links with a BoR.

*EDIT 2:* Alright, truly last edit for today.

I confirmed that the end link-connecting link gap width does relate to the diameter of the spring bar. In short, this bracelet needs fatties.

_Fatty spring bar:_










_Stock spring bar:_










So where this experiment stalls for now is that the fat spring bars are too large at their edges to fit into the DR holes. But I'm 95% sure I've seen fatties with smaller diameter edges for a job like this.

Such a specialized fatty may work with some wrestling, as I was able to get the Seiko-style fatty into "come on little man, fight me" position between the lugs. I'll probably pick some up to finish off the experiment since I got this far already.










Anyway, on this for now.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Bktaper said:


> The Holland you just sold...


Still not over it yet , but I try to live by the "one in, one out" philosophy (the best I can) and would like to try another. Wears yours in good health!


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Incomplete Test of Uncle Seiko Beads of Rice Bracelet, with Curved End Links, on NTH DevilRay
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Here are the fatties you are looking for

https://holbensfinewatchbands.com/c...set-of-fat-spring-bars?variant=16232345796719

I bought these back when i had steinhart OVM

Thanks for the pics and demo.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Here are the fatties you are looking for
> 
> https://holbensfinewatchbands.com/c...set-of-fat-spring-bars?variant=16232345796719
> 
> ...


Thanks man. I'll give them a try.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

hwa said:


> Perhaps. No accident the Ginault is a match for the 16610. But it certainly wasn't doc's intention to have those parts fit interchangeably with the nth subs. If it were, then it would've been nice for him to match the inserts, too!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah in fact that sarb033, halios, and alpinist fit it as well it's probably a design cue used?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

ck2k01 said:


> The Ginault clasp is to die for. Really, any Glidelock-type clasp is. (Although the cheaper no names are typically sharp at the edges, perhaps calling for filing.)
> 
> I'm slowly moving toward rigging all my bracelets, whenever possible, with Glidelock-type or divers extension functionality, unless the feature comes stock. It's just so nice to be able to make on the fly micro adjustments throughout the day for comfort.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's my first experience with any-sort of glidelock type clasp, it's a standard by itself but it's pretty long taking up at least 90% of the space under the wrist i can't imagine it fitting someone with a smaller wrist. I have compared with the supplied bracelet and both has it's own beauty for what it's worth the supplied bracelet stands out quite well in the comfort department, due to the thin fully articulating links..


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

liquidtension said:


> It's my first experience with any-sort of glidelock type clasp, it's a standard by itself but it's pretty long taking up at least 90% of the space under the wrist i can't imagine it fitting someone with a smaller wrist. I have compared with the supplied bracelet and both has it's own beauty for what it's worth the supplied bracelet stands out quite well in the comfort department, due to the thin fully articulating links..


Yep. The glidelock-types are long. But I've never had a problem/discomfort at 6.5". I like 'em!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

liquidtension said:


> Yeah in fact that sarb033, halios, and alpinist fit it as well it's probably a design cue used?


Perhaps, but lugholes are not universal, as is clear from the many posts about fiddling with endlinks, including doc's experience with the 23 BoRs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Omega Ultra Deep?
> 
> Okay now I can't wait for the "NTH Topnotch Profound".


That actually sounds like something Ginault would do. Ginault Extreme Abyssal, and other words pulled out of a thesaurus. Made-ish in America kinda.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> But but but...muh Seiko lumes!


FWIW, my ranking was 1. Cascais with its C3 X1 "bat signal" lume, 2. Marine Master 3. the rest. There are various different flavors and shades of Lumibrite just like SL, and some are definitely brighter than others. The one Seiko I have left is the SARB059 dialed SKX, which is fine, but unexceptional in terms of lume brightness.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

NTH has all the lumes










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

All your lume are belong to us


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> hwa said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps. No accident the Ginault is a match for the 16610. But it certainly wasn't doc's intention to have those parts fit interchangeably with the nth subs. If it were, then it would've been nice for him to match the inserts, too!
> ...


Just to clarify this...

With most brands/designs, if you happen to find that something, like an end-link for a bracelet, is interchangeable, that's pure coincidence/luck, not by design. Jelliottz found that an SKX013 bezel insert is almost a 1:1 dimensional match for the Subs' bezel insert, I found the same thing with some Invicta model, just to give two random examples.

When my team is working on a new case design, all we care about is that the end-links fit our case. We're not wondering how to get them to fit some other case. The end-link is a 3-dimensional component, with thickness, length, shape and lug-hole placement made to match the specific lugs/case to which it will be married.

That said...

1. It isn't improbable to find that the end-links for two watches with the same or almost the same dimensions will be interchangeable. That would make sense, if they share case diameter, lug width, and lug length. Whether or not they'll look right together is going to be a crapshoot, as that will be driven by the link thickness/shape vs lug thickness/shape.

2. Without wanting to throw shade, certainly there are brands making models where the interchangeability of parts with some other, perhaps more famous brand/model is intentional, not accidental.

3. In the case of the NTH Subs, the experience with the BOR bracelets led us to realize that while the outer case diameter of the Subs' case is 40mm, the diameter between the lugs, from 12 to 6, is actually 39mm (to be perfectly accurate, the radius between the lugs is 19.5mm).

So it is possible that the links for a 39mm case with 20mm lugs might fit as well, if not better than the links for a 40mm case with 20mm lugs, and I'm not entirely surprised if the bracelet from a 38mm-39mm SARB fits. As it happens, I can confirm that (at least the oyster) bracelets Strapcode sells for the 38mm SKX013 will fit the Subs, so if Jubilee is your thing, you may want to try one of theirs - https://www.strapcode.com/collections/metal/20mm?sort_by=best-selling

My strong recommendation is that anyone who buys an aftermarket bracelet should confirm the bracelet can be returned if need be, and do a test-fit of the end-links before removing all the protective wrapping.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> My strong recommendation is that anyone who buys an aftermarket bracelet should confirm the bracelet can be returned if need be, and do a test-fit of the end-links before removing all the protective wrapping.


Or just buy from Amazon so you can hack them up with a Dremel as much as you want and still return for a full refund.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Psst, Doc, thanks. Looks good, runs well, winds!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

More blue.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

basso4735 said:


> Or just buy from Amazon so you can hack them up with a Dremel as much as you want and still return for a full refund.


This is EXACTLY why I stopped selling on Amazon.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> This is EXACTLY why I stopped selling on Amazon.


I can imagine. I've bought a couple of watches off Amazon and have had to return since they were clearly used/returns.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

basso4735 said:


> I can imagine. I've bought a couple of watches off Amazon and have had to return since they were clearly used/returns.


I'm sure that happens.

From the seller's perspective - I wasn't selling enough on Amazon to justify the time I was spending trying to keep up with their system. The fact that I got a return for a "defect" and found nothing wrong with the watch, other than the fact that it was worn, didn't help.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

basso4735 said:


> Or just buy from Amazon so you can hack them up with a Dremel as much as you want and still return for a full refund.


File under "this is why we can't keep good stuff."

LL Bean had a very liberal return policy, which people abused, so they clamped down on the whole thing and it's much more restrictive now.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> File under "this is why we can't keep good stuff."
> 
> LL Bean had a very liberal return policy, which people abused, so they clamped down on the whole thing and it's much more restrictive now.


Growing up in New England, and making the annual trip to the HQ in Maine, it disappointed me when they changed that policy. However, I don't blame them at all.

People were just exchanging boots and shoes every year. Not sustainable.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Nacken Vintage Blue on a trip to NYC.

Right next door to this was Hudson Yards mall with a store called Watches of Switzerland. Nice place. Had lots of the big names. Really friendly staff.

Also wandered into a Tourneau store. Noticed the salesperson there checking my wrist. I guess the Nacken passed the test. I wasn't ushered out of the store.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



basso4735 said:


> Growing up in New England, and making the annual trip to the HQ in Maine, it disappointed me when they changed that policy. However, I don't blame them at all.
> 
> People were just exchanging boots and shoes every year. Not sustainable.


Buddy of mine used to scout yard sales for broken or dead LL Bean field watches, pay not much for them, and then return them for a new, replacement watch.

It's amazing they stayed in business as long as they have...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Psst, Doc, thanks. Looks good, runs well, winds!


Glad that worked out.

Remember to keep it clean! ;-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



basso4735 said:


> Growing up in New England, and making the annual trip to the HQ in Maine, it disappointed me when they changed that policy. However, I don't blame them at all.
> 
> People were just exchanging boots and shoes every year. Not sustainable.


I could rant, or wall-o-text here, but I'll try not to.

Every time I read a "send it back [even though it's been worn]" chain of responses to a "look at this shoddy ____" thread, I cringe.

We live in a post-Amazon world, populated by people who have largely lost their minds due to no-hassle returns offered since the heady pre-burst days of the dot-com boom.

It's why a small business like mine has to go to such stupid lengths just to make our entirely-reasonable returns/warranty policies clear to customers, and why, even then, I still end up having to explain them online, here or on FB, or in emails to guys who don't get why I can't agree to fix every little blemish, no matter how imperceptibly small, once they've been wearing something.

The exchanges almost always go the same way:

GUY: "I found ____ wrong with the watch. Obviously you missed it in QC. Here's a pic [wrist-shot, often on an aftermarket strap, so...non returnable]. I expect this will be fixed under warranty?"

ME: "Sorry, but...that's within our QC standards. The warranty covers mechanical malfunction, not visible imperfections. If you hadn't worn it, I could offer you a return for refund. If it was something outside our QC standards, I could offer you a replacement. But now, since you've worn it, I can't replace it or refund you."

GUY: "This is outrageous. How can you say this obvious defect is within your QC standards?"

ME: "Let me ask you - how do you explain that the 'obvious defect' made it through multiple rounds of QC, and then your own keen detection, as you wore it for three weeks after delivery?"

GUY: "Who cares if I've worn it? It's DEFECTIVE! It should be fixed. Would you want people online to see this?"

ME: "If you're suggesting you plan to post pics to the forums or social media, in an effort to embarrass me, have at it, but know that my response will be to ask why you wore it for three weeks if it was so obviously defective on arrival? You should know, no attempt to embarrass me or shame my business publicly has ever had the least effect on me, the business, or the situation, and has often made the person attempting the public shaming look like a fool."

GUY: "I should have expected terrible service from you, judging from your posts online, and your website."

ME: "You mean to tell me you already KNEW I was an @$$hole, but bought a watch from me ANYWAY? I can't wait to tell my friends and fans about this..."

GUY: "Maybe I'll file a PayPal dispute."

ME: "Good luck with that. PayPal loves me. I'm one of their 'power sellers'. After thousands of PayPal transactions, we've only ever been involved in maybe 2 or 3 disputes, all of which, I've won. Screen shots of all these emails tend to make the disputes pretty open-and-shut."


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

3WR said:


> Nacken Vintage Blue on a trip to NYC.
> 
> Right next door to this was Hudson Yards mall with a store called Watches of Switzerland. Nice place. Had lots of the big names. Really friendly staff.
> 
> ...


Are you on the photo walk with Trey Radcliff? He 2as just there yesterday I think?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Thanks for the info about the Strapcode Jubilee. I’m going to order one. I have never had or worn a Jubilee bracelet but I like the look. I seriously doubt it will replace the oyster bracelet that came with my Nazario (super comfortable) but I want to give it a try. I’m not counting on it but it’d be really cool if it fit my 16760 as well.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> GUY: "I should have expected terrible service from you, judging from your posts online, and your website."
> 
> ME: "You mean to tell me you already KNEW I was an @$$hole, but bought a watch from me ANYWAY? I can't wait to tell my friends and fans about this..."


What a fool. Where else can you buy a watch and get a free WoT?! This is the value proposition right here! It's also why I have my 3rd sub on order...


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Something is wrong.. the latest post I am seeing is from a week ago....


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

So... did a solid week's worth of posts in this forum just get obliterated for anyone else? I'm starting to miss just having to deal with the constant double posts.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Odin and canvas. Perfect lug fitment.









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

3WR said:


> Nacken Vintage Blue on a trip to NYC.
> 
> Right next door to this was Hudson Yards mall with a store called Watches of Switzerland. Nice place. Had lots of the big names. Really friendly staff.
> 
> ...


The Seiko. Boutique is cool also walk 47th street between 5th and 6th the diamond district all the windows are full of watches

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

kpjimmy said:


> Are you on the photo walk with Trey Radcliff? He 2as just there yesterday I think?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Nope. Not familiar with that thing or that person.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

3WR said:


> Nope. Not familiar with that thing or that person.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ah ok he just a quirky photographer that I know. He's in NY teaching photography

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

MikeCfromLI said:


> The Seiko. Boutique is cool also walk 47th street between 5th and 6th the diamond district all the windows are full of watches
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thanks for the tip! The Tourneau I visited was smaller than I expected. Later realized the much larger one was a few blocks away. In the morning, I would have taken 46th and missed those windows.

I saw Seiko leaving small Tourneau but couldn't bring myself to force family immediately back into another watch store.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

The main tourneu is 57 and madison they have a new fancy one at 42 and 6th Bryant park


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

There is also a GShock boutique in SoHo


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

looks like a week of data was eaten by the internet.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> So... did a solid week's worth of posts in this forum just get obliterated for anyone else? I'm starting to miss just having to deal with the constant double posts.


Yeah, it's happening again on a bunch of threads. I posted a thread on this when the problem first appeared on the "forum issues" section (https://www.watchuseek.com/f530/f71-4-days-posts-disappeared-4975961.html ), and looks like it's more than just a one-off case, since it's occurring again. Anyone affected might want to post in that thread to show the site mods/maintainers that this problem exists.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Thanks for clearing that up Doc on the end-links. Didn't know that the skx013 end-links fit. I like the idea of swamping out different looks and it's totally coincidentally that the end-links fit. Having multiple NTH subs can give me more options to swap it out... somehow nth's bor is permanently on the skipjack. haha


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

liquidtension said:


> looks like a week of data was eaten by the internet.


It seems to come and go. All the pages and threads are here for me now. Last night they were gone from my desktop, but were available on my phone. The only lingering fallout seems to be that the record of what I've read is lost, as all the threads indicate I've seen them...


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> It seems to come and go. All the pages and threads are here for me now. Last night they were gone from my desktop, but were available on my phone. The only lingering fallout seems to be that the record of what I've read is lost, as all the threads indicate I've seen them...


Some really weird ****e going on here. Twice now I've been notified I've got multiple new posts in a multitude of threads I'm following on Tapatalk. I get taken back multiple pages and posts to old posts I've definitely already read many days ago. Strange .

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Forum admins right now be like...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Forum admins right now be like...


Why would anyone be surprised? I mean, they have done so well with the double post thing.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Forum admins right now be like...


Why would anyone be surprised? I mean, they have done so well with the double post thing.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Oh the irony!


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

MikeyT said:


> Why would anyone be surprised? I mean, they have done so well with the double post thing.





MikeyT said:


> Why would anyone be surprised? I mean, they have done so well with the double post thing.


This is wonderful if it was on purpose, and *even more wonderful* if it was not.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

JakeJD said:


> This is wonderful if it was on purpose, and *even more wonderful* if it was not.


Thanks. I have been able to stop the double posts, but this time I let them flow....

Edit: It tried again, but this time I stopped it.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Waffle dial Wednesday.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

rpm1974 said:


> Waffle dial Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's so cool when a strap absolutely and incontrovertibly melds with a watch. Case in point.



Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

the internet is back.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Mmmmmmm good.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Three new models next week, what is Doc cooking up???


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

basso4735 said:


> Three new models next week, what is Doc cooking up???


GMT with Vantablack (tm) dial in 38mm bronze case and bracelet with female endlinks.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> GMT with Vantablack (tm) dial in bronze case and bracelet with female endlinks.


This kills the man.


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

I love Evil Twin Brewing (Champagne Slushie!!!) but wedding cake in beer sounds like a gross violation of man law to me.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cerberus yesterday









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

gsurf said:


> I love Evil Twin Brewing (Champagne Slushie!!!) but wedding cake in beer sounds like a gross violation of man law to me.


Hahaha. The beer was delicious though. Can't wait to visit their taproom in NY hopefully later this year.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

basso4735 said:


> Three new models next week, what is Doc cooking up???


Something black, something blue, maybe a 12 hour bezel or two...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

MikeCfromLI said:


> The Seiko. Boutique is cool also walk 47th street between 5th and 6th the diamond district all the windows are full of watches
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thanks again for the tips. The Diamond District was overwhelming. I was wondering if I'd see an AP Royal Oak. One window had a dozen or so along with a Patek Nautilus or two and a bunch of other pieces. Must have been $750k worth of watches easily. All crammed together in a window like you'd see model taxis, coffee mugs, and other junk in souvenir shop windows. Kind of killed the mystique surrounding those other worldly brands.

At Tourneau, I tried on a 36mm Rolex Explorer. I've admired those on the internet. Less so in person. Never meet your heroes.

The only thing that jumped out at me (that wasn't ridiculously expensive) was a black Oris Chronoris. Quite handsome in person and modestly sized. Worth twice the price of an NTH sub, though?


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I had similar thoughts earlier today when I saw the Oris HODINKEE for $2300. I like it but paying 4 times as much as buying another NTH? I can’t imagine the quality is 4 times better. I’ve never even seen an Oris in person so maybe there’s more to it than my narrow minded thinking.
It actually looks similar my my Nazario in my opinion, it’s not a California dial but there are similarities.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Nikita70 said:


> I had similar thoughts earlier today when I saw the Oris HODINKEE for $2300. I like it but paying 4 times as much as buying another NTH? I can't imagine the quality is 4 times better. I've never even seen an Oris in person so maybe there's more to it than my narrow minded thinking.
> It actually looks similar my my Nazario in my opinion, it's not a California dial but there are similarities.


They're nice, but I'm not seeing the unregulated SW200 matching the retail prices. I've tried on the Divers 65 when it was on my radar. $800? Sure. $1800? No. I'd probably own an Aquis, but I can't get past the integrated lugs. For sure it gives their bracelet an extremely clean look, but the like 12mm lug width makes straps look weird, even their straps.

I will say though that this guy is an absolute stunner.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I kinda like this...


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

3WR said:


> Thanks again for the tips. The Diamond District was overwhelming. I was wondering if I'd see an AP Royal Oak. One window had a dozen or so along with a Patek Nautilus or two and a bunch of other pieces. Must have been $750k worth of watches easily. All crammed together in a window like you'd see model taxis, coffee mugs, and other junk in souvenir shop windows. Kind of killed the mystique surrounding those other worldly brands.
> 
> At Tourneau, I tried on a 36mm Rolex Explorer. I've admired those on the internet. Less so in person. Never meet your heroes.
> 
> ...


Yeah 47th is odd picture all those folks hocked them and look the amount but you will see stuff you only saw online


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> maybe a 12 hour bezel or two...


*perk*


----------



## xAEROPLANEx (Aug 18, 2011)

Barralina? Carocuda?


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

Nikita70 said:


> I had similar thoughts earlier today when I saw the Oris HODINKEE for $2300. I like it but paying 4 times as much as buying another NTH? I can't imagine the quality is 4 times better. I've never even seen an Oris in person so maybe there's more to it than my narrow minded thinking.


I haven't either, and I think the bronze and the two tone are gorgeous- but that much for a "dive watch" with only 100M WR? Nope. If Doc can engineer a 300M, 11.5mm diver that is regulated as well as mine is for $650, a "heritage" brand like Oris should be able to do the same at their chosen price point.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

gsurf said:


> I haven't either, and I think the bronze and the two tone are gorgeous- but that much for a "dive watch" with only 100M WR? Nope. If Doc can engineer a 300M, 11.5mm diver that is regulated as well as mine is for $650, a "heritage" brand like Oris should be able to do the same at their chosen price point.


That is what I never understood on those Oris, what does it take for 200m? Cant be that much......


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Lunch break


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I will say, though, guys... my Divers 65 and I are like peanut butter and jelly. I don't even notice I'm wearing it half the time. At $2300 retail (really ~$1500 new from an AD who will discount) is it worth 2-3x? That's up to everyone to decide for themselves.

Love the snowflake Carolina on the NATO, xAEROPLANEx! |>|>


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> That is what I never understood on those Oris, what does it take for 200m? Cant be that much......


It's really only intended to be a recreational diver, so I think the WR is fine. You're not going to be going much deeper than 50m on air, which the 65 is more than capable of. If you're using mixed gasses for deep diving, there's no way you'd rely on nothing but a 3-hand dive watch for your safety. Also, that's what the Aquis is for. Oris even makes a pretty cool depth gauge version that's 500m rated.

Also, Oris is using a thicker movement than the 9015 and their case is similarly thin as the NTH Subs. It's the bubble crystal that gives the 65 its tall profile.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Who needs a calculator?


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Twehttam said:


> Who needs a calculator?
> 
> View attachment 14269671


Totally cool!


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

gsurf said:


> I haven't either, and I think the bronze and the two tone are gorgeous- but that much for a "dive watch" with only 100M WR? Nope. If Doc can engineer a 300M, 11.5mm diver that is regulated as well as mine is for $650, a "heritage" brand like Oris should be able to do the same at their chosen price point.


Which is another point. They mentioned they have slimmed the case height "down" to 11.8 mm (or so) by going to the manual winding movement. Hmm, my NTH is 11.5 with an automatic movement.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Were it priced like a Sub, I'd like to try one of the 40mm Oris Sixty-Five models. But what's up with their marketing? Does big hair say "60's style diver"? Why is that one dude wearing his jacket like that? And why is his hand in his pants?


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Anyone else see some NTH Sub in this new Monster? I think it is the bezel and color of the lume.

I like the Sub bezel inserts. Makes a lot of others look boring. Are there other brands/watches with similar looking inserts?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Happy Saturday!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

A good weekend to you all:









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



gsurf said:


> I love Evil Twin Brewing (Champagne Slushie!!!) but wedding cake in beer sounds like a gross violation of man law to me.


this sounds like the stupid mistake of a video I made while drink.

Beer, whisky wine and pizza in a blender. VERY GROSS!!!!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

How life works:

Current watches of interest in include the Nodus Contrail SS with Infinity Blue dial, and the NTH Scorpene Black with date.

I just sold a couple watches and was thinking I'd immediately pick up one or the other.

But then Doc says "new models... 12hr bezels" and I'm all, woah!

So here's how it will play out. As I wait for news of the release, both the Nodus and Scorpene will sell out. Then, either I won't like the new releases for some personal, obscure, stupid subjective reason. Or they will sell out before I have a chance to jump on one when they are released. 

Such is my life...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> How life works:
> 
> Current watches of interest in include the Nodus Contrail SS with Infinity Blue dial, and the NTH Scorpene Black with date.
> 
> ...


On the upside, once the 12h models don't work out for you, you can pick up the nodus or scorpene lightly used for a bit less


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> How life works:
> 
> Current watches of interest in include the Nodus Contrail SS with Infinity Blue dial, and the NTH Scorpene Black with date.
> 
> ...


I can't speak to the Contrail, but I doubt the Scorpene will sell out, everywhere, before next week.

Good news, it's Saturday, so less than a week to go before you know what all three new designs look like.

Don't think about it so hard. We always have new ideas in the pipeline. We've got four more new designs "in the can" for production later this year or early next, and at least 2-3 more ideas we could add whenever we want.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Many of you know I attended a party organized by Page & Cooper the week before last, when I was visiting England.

One of the attendees was Darren, from ZuluAlpha Straps - https://zulualphastraps.com/

When we met, he shook my hand, and handed me an envelope, with two items as contents.

It seems that Darren served in the Royal Navy, and knew I'd served in the US Army. One of the items was a Royal Navy pin, which I feel I'm not qualified to wear, but was nonetheless honored to receive.

The other item was one of his ZuluAlpha straps. This, I am qualified to wear, if a bit slow to figure it out (his website has instructions).

It may be the most comfortable strap in existence. It's got the recently de rigueur seatbelt material, but instead of holes and a tang buckle, it's got a two-ring-and-a-floating-bar hardware setup, for infinite adjustability.

Apparently he hand-stitches them himself, in the UK.

You all should check 'em out. They're seriously nice straps.

Video -

__
http://instagr.am/p/BzTsF60FCyz/


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Many of you know I attended a party organized by Page & Cooper the week before last, when I was visiting England.
> 
> One of the attendees was Darren, from ZuluAlpha Straps - https://zulualphastraps.com/
> 
> ...


Already got a few. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> How life works:
> 
> Current watches of interest in include the Nodus Contrail SS with Infinity Blue dial, and the NTH Scorpene Black with date.
> 
> ...


That's always how it is. I'm waiting on parts from Dr. Seikostain to redo my SKX, then I saw a picture of an SNZH FFF with the new Yobokies lumed ceramic insert and thought, yep, gotta do one of those. Meanwhile, in the back of my mind, I'm still thinking about doing a 'cuda bezel mod with a SS insert.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

For those who haven't seen the Nazario Ghost vid on IG yet:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BzTqN20lEKe/

My DevilRay is afraid... very afraid.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dat lume...









Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

Wet methods









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Santa Cruz is back on the stock bracelet... gotta say, looking back at all the watches I've had, the v2 subs bracelet is pretty much excellent. Flexible, lovely smooth links, lightweight but still solid-feeling, good screw pins (with thread not on very end, but further along), great clasp...

Once sized properly, it's basically a silk wrap that happens to be made of steel. I'm sure there could be aesthetic changes (2-4mm more taper, some polished sections, three-piece milled endlinks), but functionally the bracelet rocks. As for the clasp, the only thing that comes to mind as "would be nice" is an on-the-go elastic expansion. (IF it doesn't compromise the thinness...).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Santa Cruz is back on the stock bracelet... gotta say, looking back at all the watches I've had, the v2 subs bracelet is pretty much excellent. Flexible, lovely smooth links, lightweight but still solid-feeling, good screw pins (with thread not on very end, but further along), great clasp...
> 
> Once sized properly, it's basically a silk wrap that happens to be made of steel. I'm sure there could be aesthetic changes (2-4mm more taper, some polished sections, three-piece milled endlinks), but functionally the bracelet rocks. As for the clasp, the only thing that comes to mind as "would be nice" is an on-the-go elastic expansion. (IF it doesn't compromise the thinness...).


You say that, and yet, the bracelet and clasp still draw some complaints, as being the "weak point" of the Subs.

The watchmaker guy from Frodshams, who used to work for Sotheby's, with the Guinness World Record, who makes $80,000 unobtainium watches, said it was a great bracelet.

But the internet overflows with guys who want to critique everything, so on and on it goes, it seems...

Maybe I should be selling water heaters.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

It's always easier to point out what's missing, instead of acknowledging what's already there 

Water heaters are risky though. At least watches don't explode and ruin people's houses for hundreds of thousands in repair bills.

Also, fwiw, it took me a long time to appreciate and realize the benefit of a comfortable and lightweight bracelet that prioritizes fit over flash.


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Another shade of Renegade

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Santa Cruz is back on the stock bracelet... gotta say, looking back at all the watches I've had, the v2 subs bracelet is pretty much excellent. Flexible, lovely smooth links, lightweight but still solid-feeling, good screw pins (with thread not on very end, but further along), great clasp...
> 
> Once sized properly, it's basically a silk wrap that happens to be made of steel. I'm sure there could be aesthetic changes (2-4mm more taper, some polished sections, three-piece milled endlinks), but functionally the bracelet rocks. As for the clasp, the only thing that comes to mind as "would be nice" is an on-the-go elastic expansion. (IF it doesn't compromise the thinness...).


There is a lot to like about the current version of the NTH sub bracelet. The only tweak I would make is to the clasp. An earlier NTH model had a preferable clasp.

My first NTH watch was an Azores. The ratcheting adjustable-while-on-the-wrist clasp is such a great feature. I wish it was on every steel band they make.

Doc Savage


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> It's always easier to point out what's missing, instead of acknowledging what's already there
> 
> Water heaters are risky though. At least watches don't explode and ruin people's houses for hundreds of thousands in repair bills.
> 
> Also, fwiw, *it took me a long time* to appreciate and realize the benefit of a comfortable and lightweight bracelet that prioritizes fit over flash.


And therein lies the rub...

Among my peers and others in the industry, it seems we all collectively groan and roll our eyes at the thought of yet another critique of quality by someone still fairly new to the hobby. Something about watches, and online discussion of them, seems to make everyone feel like they're on the accelerated learning program, qualified to critique soon after entry. Don't we all feel much differently after a few years of immersion in the subject?

One of the more common complaints is that the Sub's bracelets are thin. They're supposed to be thin. The case is thin. A noticeably-thicker bracelet wouldn't improve the product. You'd notice the weight of it.

Some say the clasp is "sharp". My wife wears two of the new models, with the new clasp. My mom and two aunts, all in their 70's, also wear them. Not one of them has ever noticed a sharp edge or corner. You're telling me your skin is more sensitive than my wife's, and the skin of three women in their 70's? Really? Dude, you shouldn't be wearing a tool watch.

Although he seems to overly enjoy giving me a hard time, I recall once asking UVALaw for his assessment of some aspect of the Subs (and I think it was their bracelet), and he said something like, "I think it's precisely what's to be expected for a watch at their price."

That's not exactly praise, but for me, I was happy to have it, both considering the source (if you know what Gabe's had pass through his collection, you would at the very least, credit him with a large enough and varied enough sample size to form a suitable catalog of references at a wide range of prices), and the dryness of that assessment. It was neither overly harsh, nor overly flattering, and exactly what I would want people to say about our watches, at the very worst - exactly what you'd expect for what you pay.

Some think the watches are amazing value. Some think they're merely fair value. Some think they're a total rip-off. I can't really trust my own assessment, at least not always, nor can I really trust the fans or the haters. I tend to trust watchmakers, and others in the industry who are similarly experienced and impartial. Every one of those types has had nothing but good things to say about the watches I've shown them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> There is a lot to like about the current version of the NTH sub bracelet. The only tweak I would make is to the clasp. An earlier NTH model had a preferable clasp.
> 
> My first NTH watch was an Azores. The ratcheting adjustable-while-on-the-wrist clasp is such a great feature. I wish it was on every steel band they make.
> 
> Doc Savage


With the exception of the Barracuda Vintage Black I just got (and have yet to size, or wear), 100% of the NTH Subs in my personal collection are on the old bracelet, with the old clasp. I can't tell you how many times it's bothered me.

I can't tell you, because it's none. No times. Never bothered me.

I always thought it was at the very least adequate, if not well-suited to its role. It was thin, worked well, and not overly costly to use. That same clasp got praise when we used it on the Lew & Huey Acionna, Cerberus, and Orthos. But, for some reason, people started complaining about it on the Subs.

I do think the new clasp is better, generally, all-around, but we've also raised the price on the watches. Considering what we used to charge for the Subs, I never saw any real deficiency in the clasp (or the old bracelet, but whatevs).

That expansion clasp on the Tropics (Azores and Antilles) was the single most-complained-about feature. Some said it was too thick, the edges/corners were sharp, etc, and for some strange reason, a few griped about not having the ability to use the micro-adjustment holes, because of how we shaped the links which fed into the clasp. We'd made them wedge-shaped, to taper the thinner bracelet into the thicker clasp.

Think about that - wanting to use micro-adjustment holes, on an *EXPANSION* clasp.

For the DevilRay, we brushed the whole clasp (no more complaints about the polished center section), removed the micro-adjustment holes entirely (see, now you don't have those holes to distract you from the fact that it's an expansion clasp), and asked the factory to do something to soften the edges and corners. The links on the DR bracelet are thicker, so the thickness of the clasp seemed to be less of an issue (we still made the links on the end wedge-shaped, but not as noticeable).

Still, people complained about it, and asked if we had other clasps that would fit that bracelet (we don't).

I don't think I'll ever do another expansion clasp. I don't think they're worth the trouble. Nor am I the slightest bit motivated to dig into how we can make the center-section of the end-links more defined, or make the AR more "impressive" (whatever the hell that means), or do anything else which would effectively be nothing but a distraction, in order to please a small yet overly vocal minority of customers who insist on finding fault, no matter how small, or even completely imaginary.

Like the product the way we make it, or don't buy it. Spare me the "expert" criticism if you're not really an expert. If you get it and aren't happy with the quality, send it back for a refund, or if you've already worn it, sell it to someone who'll appreciate it more.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I solved my Barracuda problem, at least.

On CSW premium SB NATO. Don't ask me what color strap. I forget. I like it with the gilt, though.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

DRay










Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> With the exception of the Barracuda Vintage Black I just got (and have yet to size, or wear), 100% of the NTH Subs in my personal collection are on the old bracelet, with the old clasp. I can't tell you how many times it's bothered me.
> 
> I can't tell you, because it's none. No times. Never bothered me.
> 
> ...


Not a criticism, and definitely not directed at you. Had that been the intent, it would have been clear. I was careful to word this as an "I wish..." instead of a "Chris should do this..." I wouldn't ever presume to tell a watchmaker how to run their business. No need to get all "if you don't like it, don't buy it" on me.

I get that you receive a lot of frivolous complaints. The descriptions you gave in your post above are pretty extreme. I'm not telling you how to do anything or pretending to be an expert. I'm certainly not complaining about anything ridiculous. On the contrary, I'm complimenting the previous clasp you made, exactly how you made it, without complaints about it, and I'm discussing preferences of excellent parts of your watches with other NTH owners.

Please don't give me a lazy, knee-jerk response, lumping me in with the whiners you have to deal with elsewhere in your business.

Doc Savage


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

uh-oh


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I solved my Barracuda problem, at least.
> 
> On CSW premium SB NATO. Don't ask me what color strap. I forget. I like it with the gilt, though.
> 
> ...


Did you get a new camera Chris? Because this wrist shot looks DA BOMB!!!

Or is the Vintage Black that photogenic?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Not a criticism, and definitely not directed at you. Had that been the intent, it would have been clear. I was careful to word this as an "I wish..." instead of a "Chris should do this..." I wouldn't ever presume to tell a watchmaker how to run their business. No need to get all "if you don't like it, don't buy it" on me.
> 
> I get that you receive a lot of frivolous complaints. The descriptions you gave in your post above are pretty extreme. I'm not telling you how to do anything or pretending to be an expert. I'm certainly not complaining about anything ridiculous. On the contrary, I'm complimenting the previous clasp you made, exactly how you made it, without complaints about it, and I'm discussing preferences of excellent parts of your watches with other NTH owners.
> 
> ...


Someone's knickers are too tight.

Happens routinely: new guy gets excited, doc tunes him up. He either gets it or goes. 50/50, more or less.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Having tried multiple bracelets, I think the supplied v2 bracelet is made perfect for the NTH watches. Yes, the rolex glidelock clasp is superior in it's "on the fly" resizing but it does not fit everyone.

It's not easy to please everyone, but pleasing a majority is good enough. And I think Doc have done that. I've not seen a fully articulating links being a common in the microbrand world so Doc's one stands out.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Not a criticism, and definitely not directed at you. Had that been the intent, it would have been clear. I was careful to word this as an "I wish..." instead of a "Chris should do this..." I wouldn't ever presume to tell a watchmaker how to run their business. No need to get all "if you don't like it, don't buy it" on me.
> 
> I get that you receive a lot of frivolous complaints. The descriptions you gave in your post above are pretty extreme. I'm not telling you how to do anything or pretending to be an expert. I'm certainly not complaining about anything ridiculous. On the contrary, I'm complimenting the previous clasp you made, exactly how you made it, without complaints about it, and I'm discussing preferences of excellent parts of your watches with other NTH owners.
> 
> ...


Just an observation, having read a LOT of Doc's WoT, Typically the "you" paragraph at the end of one of them is a generic "you" and could more accurately be translated to "one" as in "one should do this thing." I'd ascribe that to an abbreviated form of Philly speak, filtered through a few years as a Ranger Medic. Having been personally the object of a few "you" paragraphs, I wouldn't get too worked up over it. Think: I'm sitting in a bar with a bunch of soldiers, and we're having a spirited discussion about a topic of shared passion, and along comes an aspect over which we disagree. The conversation from this point forward may include several "you should" statements, along with a few "your mother would" retorts, and one or two "you're an idiot" replies. and then you all get another beer and agree that you're all the best of friends...


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I’m very satisfied with the bracelet on my Nazario LE. I’m assuming it’s the ‘version 1’. Very comfortable. Nice clasp.
Unlike how I felt about the bracelet on my Devilray. I like the look but didn’t like the non-tapering. Hated the clasp. Sold it. The Nazario however is a keeper. Unless it somehow goes way way up in value it ain’t leaving my stable.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I solved my Barracuda problem, at least.
> 
> On CSW premium SB NATO. Don't ask me what color strap. I forget. I like it with the gilt, though.
> 
> ...


Now that you've experience it first hand. What do you feel about the BVB? whenever I put it it on, I.. smile.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Not a criticism, and definitely not directed at you. Had that been the intent, it would have been clear. I was careful to word this as an "I wish..." instead of a "Chris should do this..." I wouldn't ever presume to tell a watchmaker how to run their business. No need to get all "if you don't like it, don't buy it" on me.
> 
> I get that you receive a lot of frivolous complaints. The descriptions you gave in your post above are pretty extreme. I'm not telling you how to do anything or pretending to be an expert. I'm certainly not complaining about anything ridiculous. On the contrary, I'm complimenting the previous clasp you made, exactly how you made it, without complaints about it, and I'm discussing preferences of excellent parts of your watches with other NTH owners.
> 
> ...


You misunderstood my response.

I was agreeing with you.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Slant said:


> Did you get a new camera Chris? Because this wrist shot looks DA BOMB!!!
> 
> Or is the Vintage Black that photogenic?


No new camera. Just good light, and a good subject.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Someone's knickers are too tight.
> 
> Happens routinely: new guy gets excited, doc tunes him up. He either gets it or goes. 50/50, more or less.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wasn't directing anything at new guy.

Like I said above, I was agreeing with him.

People complain way too much about minor things, many of which aren't flaws, just matters of personal preference.

Over 5,000 watches sold. Know how many we've received back because someone just wasn't happy with it? Maybe 5.

Know how many times, when someone emailed me to complain about some niggling little thing, I've told those people to send a watch back if they weren't happy with it? Maybe 50.

Know how many of those people I've told to send the watch back actually did send it back?

None.

Not one. Ever.

That, to me, is the ultimate test of how serious a complaint is. Me, if I don't like something, I take or send it back. If I spent a few hundred bucks on something, and it didn't meet my expectations, I'd send it back for a refund.

We have a 30-day returns policy. We make 11 separate attempts to tell people to check out a watch on arrival, to make sure they're happy with it, and if not, let us know. I don't want anyone keeping the watch if they're not happy with it. I want it back. Here's your money, go find something else which meets your expectations.

What sort of loon keeps it, then goes online to complain about it?

My point wasn't directed at any one person specifically, just the madness of online watch discussion in general, because 60% of it seems to be complaining about niggling little things (the bracelet, the clasp, the AR, the rotor noise, etc) in watches people decided to KEEP.

And yet, I still see the complaints, and get the emails from people who think they know quality better than I do, and want to lecture me about it, even though they can't explain why they didn't send the watch back in the first place, if they weren't happy with it.

It gets tedious.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> Having tried multiple bracelets, I think the supplied v2 bracelet is made perfect for the NTH watches. Yes, the rolex glidelock clasp is superior in it's "on the fly" resizing but it does not fit everyone.


The Rolex clasp is also patented, as far as I know. Don't ask me how Ginault gets away with copying it, or why Rolex doesn't sue them. I pay too much to lawyers to ignore their advice.



liquidtension said:


> It's *IMPOSSIBLE* to please everyone, but pleasing a majority is good enough. And I think Doc have done that. I've not seen a fully articulating links being a common in the microbrand world so Doc's one stands out.


Fixed that for you.

That's part of my point - the complaints never stop, no matter what I do. Everyone thinks *their* complaint is the one I need to address, or else my quality will never be good enough, or whatever, but no matter what we do, there will always be someone complaining about something, so there's no fixing everything.

Once you accept that basic truth, it puts all the complaints about all the small, niggling little things into perspective. These aren't objective flaws in the product. They're the pointless musings of online critics, who feel compelled to criticize.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> Just an observation, having read a LOT of Doc's WoT, Typically the "you" paragraph at the end of one of them is a generic "you" and could more accurately be translated to "one" as in "one should do this thing." I'd ascribe that to an abbreviated form of Philly speak, filtered through a few years as a Ranger Medic. Having been personally the object of a few "you" paragraphs, I wouldn't get too worked up over it. Think: I'm sitting in a bar with a bunch of soldiers, and we're having a spirited discussion about a topic of shared passion, and along comes an aspect over which we disagree. The conversation from this point forward may include several "you should" statements, along with a few "your mother would" retorts, and one or two "you're an idiot" replies. and then you all get another beer and agree that you're all the best of friends...


Pretty much this.

When I'm speaking to you, specifically, you'll know it, to a certainty.

Otherwise, you're all you, collectively, but none of you is you, specifically, and any "you" I refer to is a generic "you", synonymous with "one", or "people", or "someone".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> I'm very satisfied with the bracelet on my Nazario LE. I'm assuming it's the 'version 1'. Very comfortable. Nice clasp.
> Unlike how I felt about the bracelet on my Devilray. I like the look but didn't like the non-tapering. Hated the clasp. Sold it. The Nazario however is a keeper. Unless it somehow goes way way up in value it ain't leaving my stable.


The DevilRay bracelet actually did taper, from 22mm at the lugs to 20mm at the clasp. Every bracelet we've ever made has tapered 2mm.

Don't know which Nazario version you mean. I assume you mean the first one. Last I looked, they were up there in value. I seem to recall seeing a used one sell for $100 over full retail.

It may not be Daytona money, but for a brand that isn't the darling of the horological press, it ain't a bad premium, you ask me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



liquidtension said:


> Now that you've experience it first hand. What do you feel about the BVB? whenever I put it it on, I.. smile.


I like it better than I thought I would. I didn't think I'd like the gold on black, but the way it catches and reflects the light is cool.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> The Rolex clasp is also patented, as far as I know. Don't ask me how Ginault gets away with copying it, or why Rolex doesn't sue them. I pay too much to lawyers to ignore their advice.
> 
> Fixed that for you.
> 
> ...


The Rolex clasp is patented? Interesting.

hhaha impossible is the right word.. everybody tends to compare anything with everything and it's normal. I think consumer has changed over the last 10 years or so in every industry. People tends to nit-pick about something they paid money for..

I bought a bun and slightly sweet I don't like it. Another consumer says I bought a bun and the sweetness is just perfect! But it's the same bun..


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I like it better than I thought I would. I didn't think I'd like the gold on black, but the way it catches and reflects the light is cool.


funny hearing it from you since you designed it. but yes the reflection... still one of the best if not the best a few vintage collectors have praise this piece in my ig account


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> The Rolex clasp is patented? Interesting.
> 
> hhaha impossible is the right word.. everybody tends to compare anything with everything and it's normal. I think consumer has changed over the last 10 years or so in every industry. People tends to nit-pick about something they paid money for..
> 
> I bought a bun and slightly sweet I don't like it. Another consumer says I bought a bun and the sweetness is just perfect! But it's the same bun..


I honestly haven't made a study of the clasp thing. When Ginault was getting a lot of discussion, and the clasp specifically was discussed, I seem to recall some saying the glidelock clasp design was patented. If so, I'm not looking to give Rolex an excuse to sue my business.

I've been down this road before, but, if we're here, and need to go down again, we can...

Assume, hypothetically, the clasp design is not patented, and I could find a good supplier to deliver a reliable "glidelock" clasp (something which has been mentioned to me enough times that I believe those who mention it are hoping I'll act on the implied suggestion).

It'll add cost, enough that I'll have to raise prices again, immediately.

There's no free lunch. I try to find the right balance of quality and cost for the product. Every little thing people would want me to change, almost all of it would add cost, and I know for certain, some folks would like it better before we changed it (the same way some folks prefer the old bracelet and clasp to the new bracelet/clasp).

I get it - ceramic bezel inserts, glidelock clasps, bronze, box crystals, Swiss movements, titanium, GMT's, expansion clasps, thicker links, different end-links...everyone has their little pet peeve or personal preference.

The thing is - I don't need to hear them. I'm not changing the product on a whim. The product is what it is. It's not changing, not even hypothetically. Trust me, I know exactly what the product needs to be, and needs to have, in order to sell it in the volume we're producing it.

And, like I've said, if you know what you're getting going into the transaction, then you know what you're getting going in. If not, you know what you got when it arrives. If you don't like it, send it back for a refund, or if you've been wearing it, sell it and move on.

The transaction is really very simple. You give me money. I give you watch. I never agreed to let anyone piss in my ear about what you'd change if you were me. That's not part of the transaction.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



liquidtension said:


> funny hearing it from you since you designed it. but yes the reflection... still one of the best if not the best a few vintage collectors have praise this piece in my ig account


I don't really think I designed that version of the Barracuda.

I never really wanted to make anything that close to an existing model from a big brand. The guys from the BSHT threads were debating whether or not I'd agree to do a gilt-dial project for them, when I settled the debate by saying I would.

The gilt dial was obviously a cool thing, but they wanted to go a different way with their project's design. No problem. We made the Barracuda, which is what the project would have been if I'd made all the design decisions.

The limitations of doing gilt dials take most of the design choices out of it. There are only four colors we can choose from for the dial - black, gold, silver, and gray - giving way to only 12 combinations, and only one which makes any sense to me - black and gold.

There are limited colors available for the bezel inserts. It's basically shades of gray/black, blue, and a handful of browns. If you're doing a black/gold dial, that sort of dictates which bezel insert color you'll choose (hint: it's black).

What's left? Nothing but handsets.

Mercedes - meh, not my first choice, ever.

Swords - not bad, but our experience has been the snowflakes sell better.

Snowflakes - I made peace with the fact that people would call it a Tudor BB 58 knockoff. People suck.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

!!!!

A maxi-negative-printed all-gold dial Sub with black lines on it, i.e. inverse of the current barracuda.

With a pure gold bezel insert, ofc.

And a cabuchon in the crown. 

You know you want to


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

According to rolex website, yeah, the glidelock clasp is patented. Never tried one on, so idk how it feels on wrist per se... but the concept of tool-less adjustment is appealing.

Anyway. I'm just musing - from a *functional* perspective, literally the only thing left to improve on the v2 bracelet is to have some kind of on-the-go adjustment that doesn't require a tool and isn't overly bulky. Probably the glidelock isn't even the best solution for it, but idk what would be.


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Citizen do an awesome compact ratcheting clasp, just 3 positions but that's enough for swelling (I rarely use the 3rd position). Not so good to go over a wetsuit. Posted as an observation only, not a suggestion!

Fully closed:








Fully open:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> According to rolex website, yeah, the glidelock clasp is patented. Never tried one on, so idk how it feels on wrist per se... but the concept of tool-less adjustment is appealing.
> 
> Anyway. I'm just musing - from a *functional* perspective, literally the only thing left to improve on the v2 bracelet is to have some kind of on-the-go adjustment that doesn't require a tool and isn't overly bulky. Probably the glidelock isn't even the best solution for it, but idk what would be.


I agree it would be a functional improvement, albeit one which comes at a cost/price increase.

Where I think some folks get sideways is when they can't differentiate a functional advantage from a quality issue, or a feature from a bug, or a personal preference for a quality issue. I see a lot of that, and it makes my eye twitch.

I'm fortunate that I like to wear my bracelets a tad loose anyway. Until my recent trip to England, I never needed on-the-fly adjustment in a bracelet. I resized the three bracelets on the watches I brought with me for that trip, but didn't get them quite right. Most days, I could have used a little extra length on them.

I'll eventually get around to correctly sizing them. Boom. Problem solved (at least for me and my collection).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> !!!!
> 
> A maxi-negative-printed all-gold dial Sub with black lines on it, i.e. inverse of the current barracuda.
> 
> ...


That hurt my head just reading it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ian_61 said:


> Citizen do an awesome compact ratcheting clasp, just 3 positions but that's enough for swelling (I rarely use the 3rd position). Not so good to go over a wetsuit. Posted as an observation only, not a suggestion!
> 
> Fully closed:
> View attachment 14275729
> ...


That's pretty slick.

I can't help but notice the gap on the fold-over safety-catch.

On an NTH, people would call that a defect.

I know, because some of the fold-over catches on our clasps have done that, and I've gotten complaints about it.

See what I mean, about the little things?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

You can't please everyone it is already a perfect watch as it is - everyone will complain about small things.

about the design - Oh yes about the BVB it was Carolina at first and a project at first with a very touching back story.

As for the instant resizing of claps. Here is what I have with me - it's small and works wonders for your claps.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I like it better than I thought I would. I didn't think I'd like the gold on black, but the way it catches and reflects the light is cool.


I really like that you opted for a deep black dial on the BVB. For whatever reason, a lot of brands pair matte black dials with gold indices, and those dials turn gray under light (BB58, Zodiac, Gilt Monta, etc). I'm not a huge fan of that look.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> According to rolex website, yeah, the glidelock clasp is patented. Never tried one on, so idk how it feels on wrist per se... but the concept of tool-less adjustment is appealing.
> 
> Anyway. I'm just musing - from a *functional* perspective, literally the only thing left to improve on the v2 bracelet is to have some kind of on-the-go adjustment that doesn't require a tool and isn't overly bulky. Probably the glidelock isn't even the best solution for it, but idk what would be.


There a bunch of different ways to skin the tool-less adjustable clasp cat. See Monta's bracelet, or the new Chris Ward Trident, etc. Ginault copied Rolex so directly because they wanted to make something that much closer to a 5-digit Submariner with a 6-digit bracelet, not because it was in any way necessary to do it that way.

The double push-button style seems to be very cost effective, though less elegant than a fold-over style.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> According to rolex website, yeah, the glidelock clasp is patented. Never tried one on, so idk how it feels on wrist per se... but the concept of tool-less adjustment is appealing.
> 
> Anyway. I'm just musing - from a *functional* perspective, literally the only thing left to improve on the v2 bracelet is to have some kind of on-the-go adjustment that doesn't require a tool and isn't overly bulky. Probably the glidelock isn't even the best solution for it, but idk what would be.


Doesn't really work on small wrist, because the clasp is long if you have a small wrist that clasp will stick out at the bottom.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

This is a minority opinion, but I think the best "adjustable clasp/bracelet" variation, at least from a functional POV, is a mesh bracelet with slide adjustment.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

https://www.strapcode.com/collections/divers-clasp

A source for those whom need a different choice.

Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> The DevilRay bracelet actually did taper, from 22mm at the lugs to 20mm at the clasp. Every bracelet we've ever made has tapered 2mm.
> 
> Don't know which Nazario version you mean. I assume you mean the first one. Last I looked, they were up there in value. I seem to recall seeing a used one sell for $100 over full retail.
> 
> It may not be Daytona money, but for a brand that isn't the darling of the horological press, it ain't a bad premium, you ask me.


I have the original Nazario LE, not any of the later versions.

The Devilray I only wore 6 times or so. Liked the watch but I think I've just gotten to the point where I'm more about comfort being the most important thing to me. It was thicker, heavier, had wider lugs, honestly didn't remember the bracelet tapered. I did really like the look of the tank tread. Sold it, didn't lose a dime.

I don't expect everything I buy online to be a perfect match for what I like. The Nazario is 99.9%. It's nice that I was able to give the Devilray a test drive for free.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> That hurt my head just reading it.


All i heard was, "gold nth bvb." Who'd do such a thing?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



liquidtension said:


> You can't please everyone it is already a perfect watch as it is - everyone will complain about small things.
> 
> about the design - Oh yes about the BVB it was Carolina at first and a project at first with a very touching back story.


Not exactly what I meant, but, yes, the BVB somewhat emerged from the Carolina project.



Davekaye90 said:


> I really like that you opted for a deep black dial on the BVB. For whatever reason, a lot of brands pair matte black dials with gold indices, and those dials turn gray under light (BB58, Zodiac, Gilt Monta, etc). I'm not a huge fan of that look.


That's the thing - I didn't opt for it. It was the only choice.

This is what I mean when I say I don't feel like I really designed the Barracuda. It's not like we started with a blank slate, and unlimited choices for everything, and chose to make it look like it does.

Black and gold is really the only gilt-dial color combo worth doing, IMO. The others don't make as much sense.

If you're doing a gilt relief dial, it'll look glossy, like ours, not matte (if it's TRUE gilt relief), because of the processes required (electroplating).

With the steel bezel inserts, colors are limited, and only black made sense in the case of the Barracuda, with the dial.

The only choices we made were handset style, lume color, bezel markings, and what to call it, but even that - with snowflake hands and that traditional sub dial pattern, it's a Barracuda. If it had sword hands, it would be an Amphion. Not much to think about there. Once the hands were chosen, the bezel markings were obvious.

I feel like we designed the other Subs models because we made more choices in the design process. The Barracuda basically designed itself. Once the gilt-dial was the starting point, the choices were mostly automatic.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> This is a minority opinion, but I think the best "adjustable clasp/bracelet" variation, at least from a functional POV, is a mesh bracelet with slide adjustment.


Personally don't like mesh bracelets, but, yes, a slide adjustment (like the one on the Zulu Alpha strap) is great, but then the strap isn't tapering.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> https://www.strapcode.com/collections/divers-clasp
> 
> A source for those whom need a different choice.
> 
> Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


I love that Strapcode is out there, offering the wide variety of clasps and bracelets that they do. I frequently recommend people check them out. Their existence takes some pressure off of me.

I'd love to see some sign that their non-Oyster 20mm bracelets fit the Subs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> I have the original Nazario LE, not any of the later versions.
> 
> The Devilray I only wore 6 times or so. Liked the watch but I think I've just gotten to the point where I'm more about comfort being the most important thing to me. It was thicker, heavier, had wider lugs, honestly didn't remember the bracelet tapered.  I did really like the look of the tank tread. Sold it, didn't lose a dime.
> 
> I don't expect everything I buy online to be a perfect match for what I like. The Nazario is 99.9%. It's nice that I was able to give the Devilray a test drive for free.


The DR is heavy, especially on the bracelet. If you're used to wearing the Subs, which are light enough to forget, you don't forget you're wearing a DR.

I wish I liked straps more than I do. I really prefer bracelets. But that means I end up wearing the Subs more than anything else in my collection.

I like the thinner bracelet (even the old style, with the old clasp). They're just really comfortable watches to wear. Nothing else we've produced has been as comfortable for me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> All i heard was, "gold nth bvb." Who'd do such a thing?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

You ever want to trade that for a dated version let me know 



docvail said:


> I solved my Barracuda problem, at least.
> 
> On CSW premium SB NATO. Don't ask me what color strap. I forget. I like it with the gilt, though.
> 
> ...


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I love that Strapcode is out there, offering the wide variety of clasps and bracelets that they do. I frequently recommend people check them out. Their existence takes some pressure off of me.
> 
> I'd love to see some sign that their non-Oyster 20mm bracelets fit the Subs.


I've purchased a few decent watches that were at decent prices that had a price point clasp, replaced with Miltat clasps, nary an email issued from the desk of I.

If I lose wrist girth, I'll buy a sub and test it out..

Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Would love to see a gilt with sword hands.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > This is a minority opinion, but I think the best "adjustable clasp/bracelet" variation, at least from a functional POV, is a mesh bracelet with slide adjustment.
> ...


The trick is always balancing function with aesthetics, and folks will always balance that out slightly differently, as the bracelet/clasp nitpickery shows.

(FWIW, I like fine-weave Milanese mesh bracelets, but it's hard to find good ones. Don't really care for the big, bulky ones that are everywhere.)


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm digging this combo.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You misunderstood my response.
> 
> I was agreeing with you.


Thanks for clarifying. I must have been really off that day. I usually read online intent pretty well, but on the same day that I horked your comment, I totally misread another post on another forum (and stuck my foot in my mouth there, too). Thankfully, it's rare.

Doc Savage


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

"When you have a bad day is when you stick your foot in your mouth. It happens. When you have a good day is when you stick your foot in someone else's mouth."
_- probably Quentin Tarantino_


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)




----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Tanjecterly said:


> Would love to see a gilt with sword hands.


Like this? Gilt does't show up really well, but....


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Doc, I’m a bracelet guy. No leather for me. Too damn hot and humid in Florida, it’d be reeking in no time. I have never tried a Nato before but going to give one a try on my Borealis, it has a 22 mm bracelet no taper. And rarely gets worn because of being spoiled by the comfort of my sub.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Thanks for clarifying. I must have been really off that day. I usually read online intent pretty well, but on the same day that I horked your comment, I totally misread another post on another forum (and stuck my foot in my mouth there, too). Thankfully, it's rare.
> 
> Doc Savage


No worries. Sorry about the misunderstanding. I do need to be more mindful of my you's and one's/someone's, etc. Thanks for understanding.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Nikita70 said:


> Doc, I'm a bracelet guy. No leather for me. Too damn hot and humid in Florida, it'd be reeking in no time. I have never tried a Nato before but going to give one a try on my Borealis, it has a 22 mm bracelet no taper. And rarely gets worn because of being spoiled by the comfort of my sub.


I just swap on silicone on hot days or whenever I'm wearing sunscreen, which would absolutely destroy a leather strap. I've tried NATOs before, but I just don't like the look of the extra tail at the top. Haven't tried a perlon, but I'm definitely curious about them. There are also waterproof leather/rubber hybrid straps, like the ones made by Hirsch.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> I just swap on silicone on hot days or whenever I'm wearing sunscreen, which would absolutely destroy a leather strap. I've tried NATOs before, but I just don't like the look of the extra tail at the top. Haven't tried a perlon, but I'm definitely curious about them. There are also waterproof leather/rubber hybrid straps, like the ones made by Hirsch.
> 
> View attachment 14277529


I've tried these years ago and still have it some where. This is the one strap that actually pulls my arm hairs and I don't really have hairy arms lol

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## jzoo (Jul 13, 2015)

My new-to-me Oberon. It's a nicely done watch, nothing to complain about here.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> I just swap on silicone on hot days or whenever I'm wearing sunscreen, which would absolutely destroy a leather strap. I've tried NATOs before, but I just don't like the look of the extra tail at the top. Haven't tried a perlon, but I'm definitely curious about them. There are also waterproof leather/rubber hybrid straps, like the ones made by Hirsch.
> 
> View attachment 14277529


I'm really liking the Bonetto Cinturini rubber strap with clasp. Have it on my Mako now but it's great for the summer.

Not my pic


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Thanks for clarifying. I must have been really off that day. I usually read online intent pretty well, but on the same day that I horked your comment, I totally misread another post on another forum (and stuck my foot in my mouth there, too). Thankfully, it's rare.
> 
> Doc Savage


Well-played, and welcome back!

We all have days like that. Let this be a place to ease those days.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

And Oberon. Yeah, no complaints!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



basso4735 said:


> I'm really liking the Bonetto Cinturini rubber strap with clasp. Have it on my Mako now but it's great for the summer.
> 
> Not my pic


I've got one of my DR's on a Bonetto.

Something about rubber straps - all the ones I have (the Bonetto, the new Seiko silicone straps, a Crafter Blue) are pliable enough, but it seems like I can never get them to fit right and really mold to my wrist. It's like I'm always caught between a little too tight and a little too loose.



hwa said:


> Well-played, and welcome back!
> 
> We all have days like that. Let this be a place to ease those days.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This.

If I had a nickel for every time I stuck my foot in my mouth, I'd have like...

Lemme see here...

Carry the two...

Eff me - five bucks?

That can't possibly be right.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I've got one of my DR's on a Bonetto.
> 
> Something about rubber straps - all the ones I have (the Bonetto, the new Seiko silicone straps, a Crafter Blue) are pliable enough, but it seems like I can never get them to fit right and really mold to my wrist. It's like I'm always caught between a little too tight and a little too loose.


I agree. Have to go on the tighter side for these otherwise the watch flops around. Luckily they are fairly comfortable so it's not a big deal.

The Barton elite silicon straps are probably the most comfortable, but are less durable and can attract lint as they aren't real rubber.
Also slightly too thin for most dive watches, but with the NTH subs thin case they work.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Family portrait


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

basso4735 said:


> I'm really liking the Bonetto Cinturini rubber strap with clasp. Have it on my Mako now but it's great for the summer.
> 
> Not my pic


For whatever reason, I've previously dismissed straps like that. Rubber with bracelet style clasp. But I like that there would be no keeper or extra long strap to deal with.

Do you know if they usually have micro adjustments in the clasp? Taper?

Pardon me... Does one/someone know if they usually have micro adjustments in the clasp? Taper?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I just ordered a bunch of "vintage" tropics from CNS. Unfortunately made out of silicon and not rubber


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Regarding discussions of changes people would prefer. I can imagine this thread, at times, could feel to Doc as if he's been called in front of Congress to answer to non-subject matter experts. It would be natural to be leery of questions leading to an attack. I don't get the impression that that is what most folks in this thread have been about in the time I've been paying attention. 

When people are passionate about something, they get into all the fine details and nuances. To an enthusiast, there are so many more things to consider and have a preference about. There probably isn't a perfect watch, perfect car, perfect whatever. Instead, you love the ones that are the best compromise that have the most of those many factors set up to your liking. I don't think wishing some detail or other was different means you don't love the overall whole. Were the tweak possible, it might make the thing that small bit closer to your own personal view of perfect. Its fun to think about and discuss that stuff even if you have no expectation of effecting change. 

Last tangent, I sometimes check in on a thread about a Smiths watch I'm interested in. It weirds me out at times. It would probably drive Doc insane. I don't know how much the discussion actually influences the final product, but it often sounds as if it is expected that design details should be put to a vote. Just as soon as the discussion participants decide which options to allow onto the ballet in the first place. I should probably mind my own business, trust the process, and look forward to a killer watch to try out.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Tried out a NATO for the day. . .Again. Still hate them. Threw the NTH on for the remainder of the day to remind myself of all that is right in the world.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I've got one of my DR's on a Bonetto.
> 
> Something about rubber straps - all the ones I have (the Bonetto, the new Seiko silicone straps, a Crafter Blue) are pliable enough, but it seems like I can never get them to fit right and really mold to my wrist. It's like I'm always caught between a little too tight and a little too loose.


Same. 
Silicon straps can get manageable (as you said the new Seiko silicones) and Barton Elites are molded with a pre-curve and are silicon, thus fitting admirably.

I've also tried the Noomoon straps (those weird crosshatch interlocking buckleless two-piece straps); they ain't silicon but they are very flexible. Unfortunately, on touch they feel like pencil eraser rubber, i.e. nasty.

All the "normal" straps intended for diving, well... myeah. Everything makes the watches sit a bit too high above the wrist, and the pressure on the wrist is sides-only, not evenly around the wrist.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Bonus lume shot of the renegade just because it looks sweet.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

3WR said:


> For whatever reason, I've previously dismissed straps like that. Rubber with bracelet style clasp. But I like that there would be no keeper or extra long strap to deal with.
> 
> Do you know if they usually have micro adjustments in the clasp? Taper?
> 
> Pardon me... Does one/someone know if they usually have micro adjustments in the clasp? Taper?


Slight taper, maybe 1mm or 2, and 3 micro adjustments on the clasp. Cut to fit then use them to dial it in.


----------



## realmasslove (Jun 30, 2018)

Hi all,

I am new here, so please let me know if this is the wrong thread to post something like this. I am a newly converted owner of the NTH Sub - Nacken Blue and it's a great watch. I like the bracelet as well, but the bracelet clasp not as much - I wish it were smaller, just a personal preference as I have slim wrists. 

I have noticed that some of the older models had a different clasp, which was indeed smaller and what would seem a perfect match for this bracelet. Is there a way for me to purchase a clasp like that anywhere? I have found a Strapcode clasp NT-CLASP18-003BSP (unfortunately, can't post links yet :-(). Will it fit this bracelet? Do I need the 18mm one (I believe the bracelet tapers to 18mm?)? 

Your help will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## realmasslove (Jun 30, 2018)

realmasslove said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am new here, so please let me know if this is the wrong thread to post something like this. I am a newly converted owner of the NTH Sub - Nacken Blue and it's a great watch. I like the bracelet as well, but the bracelet clasp not as much - I wish it were smaller, just a personal preference as I have slim wrists.
> 
> ...


UPD: here is what it looks like


----------



## realmasslove (Jun 30, 2018)

realmasslove said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am new here, so please let me know if this is the wrong thread to post something like this. I am a newly converted owner of the NTH Sub - Nacken Blue and it's a great watch. I like the bracelet as well, but the bracelet clasp not as much - I wish it were smaller, just a personal preference as I have slim wrists.
> 
> ...


UPD: here is what it looks like
View attachment 14278727


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



realmasslove said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am new here, so please let me know if this is the wrong thread to post something like this. I am a newly converted owner of the NTH Sub - Nacken Blue and it's a great watch. I like the bracelet as well, but the bracelet clasp not as much - I wish it were smaller, just a personal preference as I have slim wrists.
> 
> ...


Strapcode has them for like, $15-$20.

You want the 18mm size, by the way.

Thanks for buying NTH. Welcome to the madness of this thread. You can check out any time you like, but here and there it'll make you heave.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## realmasslove (Jun 30, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Strapcode has them for like, $15-$20.
> 
> You want the 18mm size, by the way.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Chris! I will give them a try. It was good meeting you in London, BTW.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I may regret this, but, here goes...

This is a multi-question request for your input.

As you are all likely aware, we're not doing pre-orders recently, for a variety of reasons not worth getting into. I can summarize by saying pre-orders always end up being a pain in my cojones.

Instead, I've been telling my retailers to keep waiting lists, and to just work their way down those lists, selling from inventory when the watches come in and are ready to ship (but for any pieces with QC issues we're sorting out).

It seems that some of my retailers see dramatically different conversion rates on their lists, somewhat low to extremely high.

We're (mostly, I) am trying to unravel the reasons why. Is it geography related, maybe, as that's the most obvious difference among them? Is there some explanation related to the relationship or sense of loyalty the customer feels towards the retailer, or by proxy, to me?

So...

Part one: Hypothetically, you want a watch, but it's not in stock yet. It will be available within a month, give or take, but the retailers aren't taking pre-orders or deposits.

Do you:

A. Add your name to one waiting list, then hold the money while you wait?

B. Buy something else because watch-geeks gonna watch-geek?

C. Add your name to multiple wait lists, to increase your odds?

D. Something else: __________

Part two: Where are you located?

Part three: If the big factor is just guys who want something new and can't wait to see if their number comes up on the list, what could my retailers do to make you less likely to go and spend that money elsewhere in the meantime?

A. Take a refundable deposit from the first X people on the list, according to however many watches the retailer is getting?

B. Take a non-refundable deposit?

C. Something else (don't say a discount for making the purchase, because that won't happen): _________

Part four: Do you think that the guys who get on the waiting list, but then decline to make the purchase, are likely to be the same guys who change their minds while waiting on a pre-order, the guys who either cancel last-minute, or immediately flip the watch on delivery?

My thinking is:

1. The guys who really want the watch are going to wait for it. The guys who don't wait are the same guys who cancel pre-orders or flip the watch on delivery, because something else has caught their eye in the meantime. They may be the same guys who have buyer's remorse soon after they get it.

2. The retailers who have higher wait list conversion rates are more likely to be selling to customers who used to buy direct from my site, so the customers feel some loyalty to the brand, benefitting the retailer. The retailers with lower rates are likely dealing with customers who feel less "invested" in owning an NTH, because they're new to the brand.

3. Some of it may be cultural, as I've observed how consumer expectations and attitudes can vary by region.

4. This isn't a problem that can be effectively solved, and retailers just need to adapt their business practices to their experience. Keeping away from pre-orders and deposits is keeping things simple, and that's how we should keep stuff.

5. But, persuade me I'm missing something, if you think I am.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



realmasslove said:


> Thanks, Chris! I will give them a try. It was good meeting you in London, BTW.


Nice to meet you, too.

Were you the chap on the street asking for change in service to a drunk night in a tltty bar, or one of the folks at the P&C party?






PS - if it's the former, how was the tltty bar?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

* goes to pop popcorn.......


I would guess you get a big mix between B and C.

I put myself on the list for a BVB, but found a good deal on a used one before the next batch came in.

Im in Idaho USA.

I would think a refundable deposit would keep a lot from putting themselves on multiple lists.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I may regret this, but, here goes...
> 
> Part one: Hypothetically, you want a watch, but it's not in stock yet. It will be available within a month, give or take, but the retailers aren't taking pre-orders or deposits.
> 
> ...


Sub-answer A: You are going to regret it.

Part One
A. Haven't done that yet, but I will if I can, because I want the projected 12 hour bezel.
C. I might do that, if I think it would increase my chances, but haven't up to this point. See A

Part Two
USA

Part Three
Take my money on the day the watches are announced, and send me the watch when they get it. I.e. Choice B

Part Four
I have no idea. These are watch guys. Most of them (us) are crazy.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Part one: Hypothetically, you want a watch, but it's not in stock yet. It will be available within a month, give or take, but the retailers aren't taking pre-orders or deposits.
> 
> Do you:
> 
> ...


D: wait until it goes in stock and is purchaseable "now". If yes, then I check whether I still want it or not, all else follows.



> Part two: Where are you located?


Sweden, and this year sometimes Finland, Latvia. Let's say N-NE Europe



> Part three: If the big factor is just guys who want something new and can't wait to see if their number comes up on the list, what could my retailers do to make you less likely to go and spend that money elsewhere in the meantime?
> 
> A. Take a refundable deposit from the first X people on the list, according to however many watches the retailer is getting?
> 
> ...


Idk man. Maybe B? Or maybe not have any waiting lists, just let ppl know when and at what time the watch becomes purchaseable and that's that. Seems to work out well enough for Halios.



> Part four: Do you think that the guys who get on the waiting list, but then decline to make the purchase, are likely to be the same guys who change their minds while waiting on a pre-order, the guys who either cancel last-minute, or immediately flip the watch on delivery?


Probably. All of it is connected to the separation (in time) between the decision to "omg get watch" and the outcome of "oh I have a new watch on my doorstep now". The larger that gap is, the more time ppl have to waiver and bail, however that bailing turns out to be like. I've done so on two occasions wrt some other brands' preorders, after a while after signing up / prepaying I realized that, in fact, this had not been a good decision to make (once financial, once pure preference). But it's the time factor, imo. Even if you assign each person a fully random 1% chance of changing their mind and bailing out, each day they get to exercise that roll-of-the-dice; the more days they have, the more opportunities they get to strike that 1%.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Part One: 
D: If it's only a month out and I want it, I will put my name on the list and am OK paying for it right away. 
If it's 4-6 months out then if I want it badly, I will get on a waiting list but prefer not to pay until the last few weeks to a month. 
Then again, if I want it badly like I did the Nacken last year I am ok paying for it straight up and waiting 4-6 months.

Part Two:
USA

Part three: 

B. Take a non-refundable deposit. If you take a refundable deposit then 90% of the people that got on the list and pull out (that's what she said) will most likely ask for a refund. But again, it's only a month so IDK.

Part four:
Yes


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I may regret this, but, here goes...
> 
> This is a multi-question request for your input.


For me... if I want a watch, I'll get the watch and I'm fairly impatient. I will not put myself on multiple lists, however. I'm in the US (WA), but am pretty loyal to Serious. So... if it's a new release that I want, and you're telling me I need to get on a list for it, then I'll get on Serious' list. If it's an older model that is being restocked, and I still need to get on a list, I'll get on Serious' list - but - if I see it on WatchRecon in like-new condition from a private seller, I might pick it up. That said, I generally buy new.

I'm cool with either a refundable or non-refundable deposit, but if I tell someone I'm going to buy something, I try not to flake on them.

Lastly, I have returned a watch before, but generally don't. I rip the plastic off and give it a test-drive for a couple weeks. If we haven't bonded, then I'll take my lumps and list it for sale. I'd rather spend some $ getting decent wrist-time to make sure first.

Oh, and I just ordered my second Holland from Serious... should not have sold that first one.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Part one: Hypothetically, you want a watch, but it's not in stock yet. It will be available within a month, give or take, but the retailers aren't taking pre-orders or deposits.
> 
> Do you:
> 
> ...


In all honesty, probably B; if that money isn't already being held by the retailer, I'm probably not going to have the restraint to just hold on to it. It would probably not go towards a different watch but it'll go towards something.

Once my money is put towards something, I'm generally committed towards it, and I don't typically have buyer's remorse. I'm not likely to back out of a pre-order. But if that money is just in a bank account somewhere, then it tends to go to other stuff in my life.



docvail said:


> Part two: Where are you located?


US! East Coast.



docvail said:


> Part three: If the big factor is just guys who want something new and can't wait to see if their number comes up on the list, what could my retailers do to make you less likely to go and spend that money elsewhere in the meantime?
> 
> A. Take a refundable deposit from the first X people on the list, according to however many watches the retailer is getting?
> 
> ...


Either A or B would work.



docvail said:


> Part four: Do you think that the guys who get on the waiting list, but then decline to make the purchase, are likely to be the same guys who change their minds while waiting on a pre-order, the guys who either cancel last-minute, or immediately flip the watch on delivery?
> 
> My thinking is:
> 
> ...


I won't contest your reasoning on this score, because I can only speak for myself and how I personally make "for fun" purchases. I tend not to be disciplined about it and am typically impulsive, but that impulsiveness doesn't come with a lot of "buyer's remorse," either.

Even though I'm impulsive, I buy stuff I like, and I tend to keep it for at least for a year or two. If the pre-order has a way to take my cash and hold on to it, I'm always inclined to gravitate towards that because it means I see that money removed from my account and I no longer have the temptation to apply it to anything else.


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I may regret this, but, here goes...
> 
> So...
> 
> ...


1. If it's something that exactly meets a niche "want" that I have, then A. If not, then D. I will wait until I get an email its available to purchase, if it's gone, it's gone.
2. California
3. B. A non-refundable deposit is the only thing that gives a wait-list meaning. 
4. Probably in most cases.

I am most likely to purchase directly from your website (which is what I did). I don't like wait lists or pre-ordering. But I will wait for that e-mail that says "now in stock". Gnomon does this for their Steinhart and Squale special models. The Hodinkee Oris suddenly showed up and sold out almost instantly. I think putting up the upcoming release with an "email me when available" and an expected timeline is the way to go. Those who make it a priority will show up cash in hand. Those who miss out, miss out.


----------



## det55 (Apr 19, 2017)

Part One:
It depends on how confident I am I'm going to get it and how quickly. If I perceive it's a brand (like yours) that tends to sell out I'm probably going to buy something else if it comes up first. If it's going to be a while, I'll probably buy something else instead of putting a deposit down. If it's going to be available soon and I'm confident the wait list is legit (transparent communication, updates, etc. sign me up, I'll wait. 
Part Two:
US - Midwest (moving to east coast soon)
Part Three
First, make communication quick and transparent. Make signing up easy. I did watchgauge and though I had to email instead of doing a form (less easy/confidence inspiring) I got a quick response from John telling me where I was on the list and that gave me confidence I would get one. I then got an order email when it was ready to ship and things were easy. Make it easier to get on a list and maybe provide updates throughout the process (not necessary in my case because I was only a week ahead or so). 
Second, if you want a little hook to make sure I'm serious take my payment information but don't charge it and let me cancel at any time. Charge me the day it ships if I haven't canceled. If canceling is painless I'm more likely to pull the trigger. And most importantly for your retailers anyone who no longer intends to purchase will cancel, giving you up-to-date intel on who is actually likely to buy. If canceling is difficult or you take my money now for a product later, I'm less likely to buy at all. This, to me, is the fair way to protect the buyer but also make sure they're serious. Adding a small ($50?) refundable deposit might add a little more incentive to opt-out as early as possible, but I think adds a barrier to purchase that doesn't get you much extra protection. 
Part Four:
I think if there's no incentive to take yourself off the list (i.e. cancel the order, see above suggestion) then I'm not as likely to go through the effort or even think about it. So it could be any reason, but for me it would be I get bored, impatient, or find something I like even better or just as much. If there's no confirmation and I don't have a commitment hanging out there, I might not even remember what waiting lists I'm on. It's not necessarily malicious intent, but we're all busy people here. If I had a cancel-able commitment (i.e. opt-out), I'm going to opt-out as soon as I've changed my mind. If it's an opt-in situation, I might wait and see in case I change my mind again, or simply not choose to opt-in (i.e. pay) when it's available.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

The nackens with the date between 3&4. How old are those models? When was it switched to the 6? Also, as I’m kind of a noob. If this watch turns out to be a couple years old, how would the lume be in comparison to the new ones? I honestly don’t know how long lume lasts. Thanks guys!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

A couple of years.

The lume will be a few years older. 

Usually lume lasts for about 30 minutes to an hour when strong, and for about 3-6 hours on weak glow.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

The Vanguard just broke cover over on FB and IG..........


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I may regret this, but, here goes...
> 
> This is a multi-question request for your input.
> 
> ...


I'm probably an outlier, but here are my data points, roughly aligned to the questions:

Once the decision to procure is made it's final and binding, so there's no losing interest, it's just a matter of sourcing and pricing (when that's a variable, affordability might be a better word).

For my BVB I put myself on the P&C waiting list because that's where I got my Sinn from and Jonathan is a gent (this was for the latest production run).

When the watches landed I did not get a notification, so assumed they'd all been snapped up (I'm guessing P&C are high conversion) - briefly considered waiting but decided this was one train I wasn't going to miss, so, following a timely tip from this very thread it was off to Hong Kong for the BVB international edition.

That's it, loyalty and proximity to dealer were both factors going in, but got outweighed by the need for instant gratification - the silver lining was that customs completely messed up the HKD conversion rate and only charged me about 5% tax, so it ended up being cheaper than buying locally.

Deposits - if demand looks like it's outstripping supply then definitely, and I used to love early bird pre-orders (and discounts) back in the L&H days. I don't think they need to be non refundable as cash up front probably tips you into full commitment...you won't do it unless you're pretty much all in.

General musings on pre-order behaviour. Getting on a list is normally a 1 click operation, and I suspect there's many that use them as a notification system, not a sign of commitment. That said I don't think you can really rationalise the behaviour of wrist jewellery junkies, hell, I thought I was clean but it turns out that not buying a watch for four years just means you're building up a huge head of unrequited, steamy lust, and the gasket will definitely and eventually blow (spectacularly).

A parting thought on regret. Pretty sure this only happens over unaffordable things.

TL;DR it's always going to be a bit of a lottery at the individual level, but you should be able to rely on trend data as long as its not fuelled by "artificial" demand (surely not a problem in this part of the industry).

watch addict in recovery


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

X2-Elijah said:


> A couple of years.
> 
> The lume will be a few years older.
> 
> Usually lume lasts for about 30 minutes to an hour when strong, and for about 3-6 hours on weak glow.


Thank you! Also I meant what's the life of lume? Like a handful of years? I really enjoy the lume on my nths I have now. Just curious if it would still be great looking lume

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Ragl said:


> The Vanguard just broke cover over on FB and IG..........


Who else reads up on the type of submarine class once a new name is released? Did you know there are four Vanguard-class subs - Vanguard, Victorious, Vigilant, and Vengeance - and they may be able to circumnavigate the world 40 times without refueling? "Vengeance" was nearly axed, but was eventually funded and built.

Cool subs.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Saw this campaign on Indiegogo, so had to share it here.

The Return of the Näcken: a gothic horror tale:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-return-of-the-nacken-a-gothic-horror-tale/x/16205959#/

View attachment 142


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mikefable said:


> The nackens with the date between 3&4. How old are those models? When was it switched to the 6? Also, as I'm kind of a noob. If this watch turns out to be a couple years old, how would the lume be in comparison to the new ones? I honestly don't know how long lume lasts. Thanks guys!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





X2-Elijah said:


> A couple of years.
> 
> The lume will be a few years older.
> 
> Usually lume lasts for about 30 minutes to an hour when strong, and for about 3-6 hours on weak glow.


Pretty much, this.

All of the dates were at ~4:33-ish on the first batch, produced in 2016. I can't exactly remember when we switched, and my files aren't anywhere near organized enough, nor do I feel motivated enough, to go looking through them to figure this out.

Oldest NTH Subs were produced in 2016. I vaguely recall we started pre-orders in April/May, so delivery would have been sometime in the fall.

So...3 years old, at most.

Superluminova isn't like Tritium, where the half life decreases its intensity noticeably over time. It does flake over time, so there's that, and I suppose if I knew more about chemistry, I might be know and be able to explain whether or not how its luminosity changes over time, but I don't know, so I can't explain.

I will venture a claim that - c'mon, if it's a good lume application, no way is it going to fade noticeably after just a few years.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> Pretty much, this.
> 
> All of the dates were at ~4:33-ish on the first batch, produced in 2016. I can't exactly remember when we switched, and my files aren't anywhere near organized enough, nor do I feel motivated enough, to go looking through them to figure this out.
> 
> ...


Oh awesome! And thank you! Nailed my question!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> The Vanguard just broke cover over on FB and IG..........




__
http://instagr.am/p/BzbB2j9gAq4/

Ya like?


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

I dig it. Watched a part of the video, color variations available??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

That's the weird thing, we don't actually know IF modern superluminova compounds even degrade at all. Are there any early 90's watches with fading lume?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Twehttam said:


> Who else reads up on the type of submarine class once a new name is released? Did you know there are four Vanguard-class subs - Vanguard, Victorious, Vigilant, and Vengeance - and they may be able to circumnavigate the world 40 times without refueling? "Vengeance" was nearly axed, but was eventually funded and built.
> 
> Cool subs.


Ah, a shame they stopped at four. Would've liked to see the "NTH Vambrace".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mikefable said:


> I dig it. Watched a part of the video, color variations available??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Any color you want, as long as it's blue.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> Any color you want, as long as it's blue.


Lmao fair enough. Sharp looking watch!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> That's the weird thing, we don't actually know IF modern superluminova compounds even degrade at all. Are there any early 90's watches with fading lume?


This is the part where I start to get OCD about the words we use, and their meanings.

I'm sure someone here, or on social media has a watch from the 90's.

Problems:

1. Most people are unlikely to notice a change that takes so long to occur. Sort of like we don't really notice our hair growing, we just notice when someone gets a haircut.

2. Does "fading" mean the appearance in the daylight changes, for example, something that was once a pale yellow-white C3 is now a slightly darker shade (not as bright in the daylight)? Does that necessarily mean it's not as bright in the dark?

3. How do we objectively and accurately assess such things? Even with new watches, our perception of lume brightness and longevity varies from person to person, and its objective performance will vary with quantity and exposure to light.

The thing about radium, and then tritium - they glow because they're radioactive compounds. They emit their own light, which dims as the compounds deteriorate. I think Superluminova is basically a fancy glow-in-the-dark paint. It doesn't glow on its own, it just absorbs ambient light, then gives it back, until its spent.

I suppose whatever chemical process is happening that makes it do that, maybe there's a finite limit to how much of it can be done, but there again, that's not purely a function of time, the way half-life of Tritium or Radium works. It would seem to be more a function of prolonged exposure / use. If so, then, logically, the best way to get the longest life out of your lume is to keep your watch in the dark, and never use the lume.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

FWIW I have a couple of early 1990 vintage watches with lume that still glows like a torch


----------



## realmasslove (Jun 30, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Nice to meet you, too.
> 
> Were you the chap on the street asking for change in service to a drunk night in a tltty bar, or one of the folks at the P&C party?
> 
> ...


No, sorry, I am not this chap on the video  Everybody needs a bit of that at some point in life ;-)


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

docvail said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BzbB2j9gAq4/
> 
> Ya like?


This is killing me. I can't get to social media from behind the CDCR fire wall. Two more hours...


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

gsurf said:


> This is killing me. I can't get to social media from behind the CDCR fire wall. Two more hours...


Quick rip:


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

You're the man.

That thing is so rad.


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I may regret this, but, here goes...
> 
> This is a multi-question request for your input.
> 
> ...


Here's my opinion to be added as whatever anecdotal data point it's relevant to:
I don't like waitlists. There's a lack of information there. Maybe your retailers are more transparent (I've not looked) but the typical wait list does not tell you how high up you are on the list or whether there's a guaranteed shipment by a certain date. In other words, most waitlists don't tell you whether you're likely to actually get a watch. If there's a watch I like and there's only a waitlist for it, I might put my name on it, but I'd have almost no expectation of buying it, because I don't have information about when it will be available. If serendipity strikes and I have funds when the watch is available, then maybe I'll buy. But if not, then not.

And since I've not _lost_ anything by putting my name on a list, why not do it? The barrier is extremely low (in "standard" situations. Again, I've not looked at your retailers so I don't know what they're doing).

At the same time, waitlists seem like a way to create artificial demand. "Ooh, look at the people lined up for my product. Let's make them wait even more and publish the waitlist to make the product seem more exclusive and desirable!"

Finally, I know there are some places where waitlists aren't even waitlists. (Joma, for example, with its infamous "out of stock" pricing.)

Preorders are much different, at least in my mind. I know that I'm going to get a watch. I know the day I'm getting a watch. (Delays happen, but at least there's some idea.) And I know I'm getting the watch roughly the same time as everyone else (at least the same folks who ordered in roughly the same period). There's a much greater expectation. And, since preorders usually require a deposit, there's a greater commitment. Sure, sometimes I flip the preordered watch because I lose interest by the time it gets here, but that's much less likely to happen than a waitlist, at least for me.

Want to increase waitlist return?
- Make the barrier to entry more difficult. I think that means non-refundable deposits (with exceptions for undue delays or other errors on your end). Or at least a sizable refundable deposit.
- Make the waitlist process more transparent. Guarantee that, if I put my name on today, I'll be in the group that gets the product on ___ (barring catastrophe). Perhaps wait to open a waitlist until there's a delivery date (reasonably) certain. I don't want to be on a list that allows people to put their names on a "someday" list. But when X number of units will be most certainly available in Y days (I'd say no more than 30-60 days), open the waitlist then. More skin in the game; more certainty of getting the product in a reasonable time.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gsurf said:


> This is killing me. I can't get to social media from behind the CDCR fire wall. Two more hours...


He said, while on a forum...


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Ah, a shame they stopped at four. Would've liked to see the "NTH Vambrace".


I am now down the rabbit hole.

More respect for the Holland, which is an OG. My guess is Chris named it for the Royal Navy's Holland-class sub, which was their first. However, there's also a claim to be made for the US namesake. The "Holland", SS-1, launched in 1897 and acquired by the USN in 1900, was the first modern, US sub. Lots of cool Holland-class subs and history.

Unsolicited advice: We need a Nautilus sub. SSN-571 was hard core in its mission to reach the North Pole - submerged.

I'm not sure I'd get work done if I had Chris' job... I'd spend too much time researching sub names.


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

docvail said:


> He said, while on a forum...


I didn't say CDCR has a smart firewall. Eventually the nerds in Sacramento will figure it out though, and I'll be stuck with nothing to do... other than work.


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

Twehttam said:


> I am now down the rabbit hole.
> 
> More respect for the Holland, which is an OG. My guess is Chris named it for the Royal Navy's Holland-class sub, which was their first. However, there's also a claim to be made for the US namesake. The "Holland", SS-1, launched in 1897 and acquired by the USN in 1900, was the first modern, US sub. Lots of cool Holland-class subs and history.
> 
> ...


The first brass/bronze cased Sub would need to be the Nautilus- as I'm envisioning a retro-futurist Jule's Verne design aesthetic...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gsurf said:


> I didn't say CDCR has a smart firewall. Eventually the nerds in Sacramento will figure it out though, and I'll be stuck with nothing to do... other than work.


I know that feel...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If you guys could see what's happening on Facebook right now, you wouldn't be suggesting I name a watch "Nautilus".


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Hopefully Vanguard mutual funds doesn't sue you:-d


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Hopefully Vanguard mutual funds doesn't sue you:-d


It's funny...

Their headquarters is right down the road from me (as you know, being in W.Chester). I used to work in financial services, so I know a lot of people who've worked there, and I kind of don't like the company, because of the stories I've heard from former employees. I hesitated to use the name "Vanguard" simply because of that.

It never occurred to me I'd catch hell for it from another brand owner.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

And my short answer to your long pre-order question is that I'm usually not going to pre-order unless I see pics of a prototype. I'd rather take my chances on missing out than be disappointed with what's delivered. Luckily, when the skipjack came out people were sleeping on it and it worked out for me. Now that I own a sub, I'd probably pre-order. But for noobies to NTH, the lack of pics "in the metal" is probably costing you a few sales.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> It's funny...
> 
> Their headquarters is right down the road from me (as you know, being in W.Chester). I used to work in financial services, so I know a lot of people who've worked there, and I kind of don't like the company, because of the stories I've heard from former employees. I hesitated to use the name "Vanguard" simply because of that.
> 
> It never occurred to me I'd catch hell for it from another brand owner.


I worked there a few years right out of college. The environment wasn't for me. But a college friend that started the same time as me stayed, and he's done extremely well for himself. Extremely well. Working up from entry level. It all depends on your disposition. Sorry... Threadjack...


----------



## BC Wave (May 20, 2019)

3WR said:


> For whatever reason, I've previously dismissed straps like that. Rubber with bracelet style clasp. But I like that there would be no keeper or extra long strap to deal with.
> 
> Do you know if they usually have micro adjustments in the clasp? Taper?
> 
> Pardon me... Does one/someone know if they usually have micro adjustments in the clasp? Taper?


Watch Gecko sells these by Bonetto. They can be trimmed and have micro adjustments.

https://www.watchgecko.com/zuludiver-400-italian-rubber-drivers-watch-strap


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Hi Doc,

I want to just ask if the end-links on vanguard are the same as to the other models? 3d rendering might give me a different impression.. hehe


----------



## Slant (Feb 21, 2010)

liquidtension said:


> Hi Doc,
> 
> I want to just ask if the end-links on vanguard are the same as to the other models? 3d rendering might give me a different impression.. hehe


Based on past experience:










In real life:










So I'm pretty sure that yes, the end-links on the Vanguard will be the exact same as the other models.

(Pics taken directly from Doc's site)


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Nice to meet you, too.
> 
> Were you the chap on the street asking for change in service to a drunk night in a tltty bar, or one of the folks at the P&C party?
> 
> ...


Donate a watch to help a family adopt a kid. Donate money to help a bloke get his party on. Did it hurt when you fell from Heaven?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Slant said:


> Based on past experience:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kinda expected! hehehe thanks


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BzbB2j9gAq4/
> 
> Ya like?


meh. Ever consider a dive timer bezel?


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

“Waitlist”....

It’s to make legitimate the fact that you acknowledge that you are, with great conviction... currently waiting.

I personally, appreciate the relative gamble of the pre-order. However, if I were the one selling the wares... Building a frothy mass of demand, keeping the perceived value at its waxing position, is likely best maintained by serve primum venire primum. If you truly want something, come early with your bags O’ treasure for trade. 

I’m good with Doc’s present course, receive notification of the date of release via email from the primary vendor subscription, or via the secondary sellers notifications. Spend cash rather presently, or “unofficially” wait for the next round. 




Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

One: A
Two: USA
Three: A 
Four: You lost me.

I like the wait list system.

I dislike having to be at a computer at a certain time to participate in a watch feeding frenzy. 

I like no deposit. But I suspect a modest refundable deposit might increase the eventual take rate by requiring a little bit of skin in the game. 

(Quick anecdote. A friend worked in a pharmacy. Some assistance program or other made medications free to some customers. They routinely filled truck loads of prescriptions. Then the program changed and required a tiny amount of money per medication. After that, they didn't bother filling all of the prescriptions.)


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BzbB2j9gAq4/
> 
> Ya like?


Yes. Very yes.

Please tell me there will be a date version...

And, not a deal killer, but bezel -- bi- or uni-directional rotation? 60 or 120 clicks?


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> Quick rip:
> View attachment 14280005











Hands, indices made me think of one of my Citizens.

In the animation, the bezel moves as if it has 12 positions. Surely the bezel operates like all of the other Subs, no?


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

det55 said:


> Part One:
> It depends on how confident I am I'm going to get it and how quickly. If I perceive it's a brand (like yours) that tends to sell out I'm probably going to buy something else if it comes up first. If it's going to be a while, I'll probably buy something else instead of putting a deposit down. If it's going to be available soon and I'm confident the wait list is legit (transparent communication, updates, etc. sign me up, I'll wait.
> Part Two:
> US - Midwest (moving to east coast soon)
> ...


This is perfect feedback and exactly the thought process I would take when setting up a pre-order /wait list system.

Fair to both parties while providing anchors on both sides.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I may regret this, but, here goes...
> 
> This is a multi-question request for your input.
> 
> ...


I actually think the way things are now done are perfectly adequate.

Otherwise, just a straight up pre-order scheme would be the safest way to ensure final payment. Get me when I want it, or lose me to something else.

A non-refundable deposit is actually more of a turnoff for me than full prepayment, and least likely to get me to preorder.

A momentary lust would have me signing up for a waitlist, but give me time enough to consider the details or spend money elsewhere, and there is a better than even chance I'll ditch it upon availability notification.

At least with full prepayment, the watch ships... then it's on me to flip it if I then don't want it. And with NTH as an established brand, pretty much known quantity where quality and delivery is concerned, a no-brainer on the consumer end of things.

New England, Southern Maine.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



basso4735 said:


> I agree. Have to go on the tighter side for these otherwise the watch flops around. Luckily they are fairly comfortable so it's not a big deal.
> 
> The Barton elite silicon straps are probably the most comfortable, but are less durable and can attract lint as they aren't real rubber.
> Also slightly too thin for most dive watches, but with the NTH subs thin case they work.


They're my favorite silicone straps that I've tried. I haven't found the thinness to be a problem, and I _love_ that they give you an extra short length tail because a lot of silicone and rubber straps are sized for people with up to 8" wrists, and those look WAY too long on my tiny wrists. Really the only complaint I have is that the sunscreen stains them white on the bottom, but nothing I can do about that. I haven't tried something like a vinegar soak, but regular soap won't get it off.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> Yes. Very yes.
> 
> Please tell me there will be a date version...
> 
> And, not a deal killer, but bezel -- bi- or uni-directional rotation? 60 or 120 clicks?


.

Not holding my breath on the blue date. The vast majority of blue versions seem to be dateless.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I happened to know, from a reliable source, that the Vanguard will have both a date and a no date version


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> Hi Doc,
> 
> I want to just ask if the end-links on vanguard are the same as to the other models? 3d rendering might give me a different impression.. hehe


Joking? Can't tell for sure.

All the Subs have the same case and bracelet. No change.



3WR said:


> Donate a watch to help a family adopt a kid. Donate money to help a bloke get his party on. Did it hurt when you fell from Heaven?


A little.



3WR said:


> meh. Ever consider a dive timer bezel?


I'm not sure I follow. Is that not what we've been making, with all the other Subs?



captainmorbid said:


> "Waitlist"....
> 
> It's to make legitimate the fact that you acknowledge that you are, with great conviction... currently waiting.
> 
> ...


I don't know why this made me think about it, but reading your post, it occurred to me that maybe part of the difference in results is a difference in how the retailers are doing things.

The retailer with the highest conversion rates creates orders in his website, then sends customers an invoice to pay when the watches are ready.

I'm not sure how the retailer with the lower conversion rates is doing it, but I'm pretty sure it isn't with order invoices. I think it's managed with a lot of communications between retailer and customer. The more I think of it, the more I think that has something to do with it, because the communications get in the way.

The thing about not taking any deposits (or pre-orders) is that if we take someone's money, the dynamic becomes one of assumed accountability. Those people want to know, with some assurance, when the watch will be ready to ship. If we don't take people's money, I don't feel like we owe anyone any explanation if we have a production delay. There's no communication required other than vague ready-by dates.

I think a refundable deposit might not be as good as a non-refundable deposit for ensuring everyone converts, but my gut says that very few people are likely to put down multiple deposits with multiple retailers, so it would at least tamp down on that (if it's even been happening), and I think it would be preferable for most people, many of whom may feel some hesitation if the deposit is non-refundable.

I always made pre-orders refundable. I always had at least a few or even a half-dozen people cancel. It was never enough to present any financial problems for the business. The biggest hassle was if it caused some inventory imbalance, but even that doesn't stick out in my memory as being a huge issue for me.



3WR said:


> One: A
> Two: USA
> Three: A
> Four: You lost me.
> ...


Indeed. While it was fun for me to see a few hundred watches sold at once the moment we opened pre-orders, the kvetching by those who didn't get the watch they wanted, at the price they wanted, and the requests to change or cancel orders in the aftermath was always a buzz-kill.

On the one hand, if a brand has that much hype around every new release, then, logically, they don't need to worry about a few people getting pissed off for being shut out of a new release. But I tend to think that sort of thing tends to build up resentment for the brand over time.

Plus, a lot of my customers are my friends. I don't like the idea that it looks like I don't value their brand loyalty and longtime support, and the feeling of pressure to find some way to make sure they all get what they want. That creates a good bit of extra work for me, always at the worst possible time, when I'm already at my busiest.

As for your Rx anecdote - yeah, if we don't take any deposit with the wait list, the conversion rate is going to be lower, on average. If we take a refundable deposit, the conversion rate probably won't be as high as it would be if we made the deposit non-refundable.

But, if it was non-refundable, then I think we end up with guys who really don't want the watch, and will either balk at having to complete the purchase, or balk at not getting their deposit back, or who'll end up flipping the watch immediately on delivery.

Why does the immediate flip bother me enough to mention it? Because I think those guys are most likely to sell for a lower price, even if they paid full price.

My logic is - we're more likely to NOT yet be sold out, and if we still have some available new, that puts pressure on secondary market prices. Plus, the guy selling is more likely to just want his money back, so he prices for a fast sale. And, he's more likely to not even like the watch, so he's not as likely to think it's worth more.



mconlonx said:


> Yes. Very yes.
> 
> Please tell me there will be a date version...
> 
> And, not a deal killer, but bezel -- bi- or uni-directional rotation? 60 or 120 clicks?


All three of the new models will have date no-date versions.

It's the same case for all NTH Subs - 120-click uni-directional.

I had an exchange about it with YouTuber Random Rob yesterday, when he asked the same question. I explained that the way the cases are tooled and assembled, and the way we do new productions, makes it impossible to offer it with a bi-directional bezel.

From my perspective, I don't see why that would be a huge issue for anyone. It's a bezel, it takes 3 seconds to spin it all the way around. How hard is it to go 11 positions to the left rather than 1 position to the right?



3WR said:


> View attachment 14280773
> 
> 
> Hands, indices made me think of one of my Citizens.
> ...


The bezel has 120 clicks. Rusty just illustrated it stopping on a few of the hour indices.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> I don't know why this made me think about it, but reading your post, it occurred to me that maybe part of the difference in results is a difference in how the retailers are doing things.
> 
> The retailer with the highest conversion rates creates orders in his website, then sends customers an invoice to pay when the watches are ready.
> 
> I'm not sure how the retailer with the lower conversion rates is doing it, but I'm pretty sure it isn't with order invoices. I think it's managed with a lot of communications between retailer and customer. The more I think of it, the more I think that has something to do with it, because the communications get in the way.


If that's the case, then the disparity makes sense, even without considering other factors.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...my week is getting more and more interesting.

No doubt some of you are aware of the blog post, apparently published earlier today, suggesting a link between me/my business, and TC/Ginault.

Anyone who reads the article should clearly see that the person/people behind TC/Ginault are fraudsters who make frequent use of aliases. 

For some reason I can't explain, they appear to have some axe to grind against me and NTH, borne out by their own comments and threads in this forum, which frequently make snarky references to me, my business, this thread, my online activity, etc.

Why the blog's author, after seeing the trail of lies and deceit, would somehow believe that a fraudulently filed business document, one using my name - but TC's email address - was somehow legit, and proof enough that I'm somehow connected to it all, is beyond me.

I woke up to find my inbox blowing up with messages about this. Yes, I'm aware of it. Thank you all. 

No, I don't have anything to do with TC/Ginault. My name was used without my knowledge or consent. It was digitally signed, not with my actual signature, but with TC's email address. It should be obvious to everyone that the document is a fraud.

No, I don't know what I plan to do about it. I've already had one attorney friend suggest I contact the state of Wyoming to report the fraud. I can already guess that will be more effective if I hire legal counsel to be the intermediary, and deliver that message. 

I've commented on the post, and replied to the author in a Ginault thread in the dive-watches sub-forum, asking that he edit the article appropriately, removing the assertion that I'm involved, and replacing it with the truth - my name was used fraudulently.

The document was filed in 2018, using a home address and PO box I haven't used in at least 3 years, maybe four. Anyone determined enough to look into my background will eventually find my past residences and business addresses, many of which are matters of public record, thanks to my own business filings with my state, and the legal requirements of my past career as a registered investment advisor and licensed broker of both investments and insurance.

Googling "Ginault Vail" turns up a few of the current discussions happening. It's clear that the allegation of my involvement has already damaged my reputation. The longer the blog post remains as it is, without any correction/retraction, the longer and more damage my reputation will suffer, and the more likely it will be that I will be forced to get legal counsel involved, and pursue action not just against TC, but the article's author, given that he's accused me of being involved with a clear fraud.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> So...my week is getting more and more interesting.
> 
> No doubt some of you are aware of the blog post, apparently published earlier today, suggesting a link between me/my business, and TC/Ginault.
> 
> ...


Dang. That really blows. Is there anything we can do to help?

Doc Savage


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

I'm sorry, Chris.

My recommendation would be to move swiftly, decisively, and visibly on legal and PR fronts.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

This suck. I'm sorry Chris. Please let us know if you need any help. Just saw the post on r/watches but haven't read the article yet. You probably need to protect yourself first and do what you need to do first.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So when can we get those awesome Ginault glide lock bracelets on your subs?

Just kidding!!!

All i can say is WOW! Total BS of course, but wow!


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Incorporation docs with forum handles as the names of D&O’s, LOL!

Who knew Wyoming’s incorporation regs were so lax...

Sorry Doc.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Makes me want to buy another sub. Go get 'em, Chris.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Dang. That really blows. Is there anything we can do to help?
> 
> Doc Savage


Maybe, don't know...

Here's what I think is about to happen.

All my supporters speak up - Chris isn't involved. It's obvious.

All my haters and all the trolls - how do you KNOW that? Can you PROVE it? His past history (whatever that means) makes him suspect.

Blah, blah, blah.

How do I *PROVE* my name was used fraudulently? How do I *PROVE* I stopped using that address 2 years before the business filing, without exposing my current residence - and my family - to the world? I use a PO Box for business because I *DON'T* want people knowing my personal contact info.



Agent Sands said:


> I'm sorry, Chris.
> 
> My recommendation would be to move swiftly, decisively, and visibly on legal and PR fronts.


Just spoke to my attorney. This is bigger than just the hit to my reputation. There are other potential problems I won't get into publicly.

We'll be sending a cease-and-desist to the blog's author, for making fraudulent statements about me and my business.

We'll be contacting the state of Wyoming to have the records edited or the filing voided.

Please, no more emails or private messages about this. My inbox is blowing up already. I'm aware of it, and taking steps to address it. I don't have time to respond to each person who thinks they're helping me by sending me a link to yet another group or forum where the link to the article has been posted.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, please, this isn't a good time to be joking with me, about end-links, clasps, whatever.

This is serious, more than you know. I'm not exaggerating for effect.

It appears that my post to the WUS thread about it has been removed. I have no explanation why. I can't even defend my own reputation in direct response to the blog's author, apparently, even though my understanding is that Ginault is no longer a forum sponsor. 

So...yeah, not a good day to be poking the bear. If you want to help, feel free to speak up about, it, pointing out how absurd it is to suggest I'm involved, for all the good that will do.

I've been libeled, and now I have to pay a lawyer to respond to the blogger, and communicate with government entities, in order to protect myself, my business, and my family. This is going to suck up time and money, and no doubt the haters and trolls will keep it going as long as they can, in as many venues as they can. 

I may look back and laugh at the jokes someday, but today, all you're doing with that is searing a memory into my brain, ensuring that at some point in the future, I'll remember who went out of their way to take a jab at me when my attention was necessarily elsewhere.

For the record - the blog author never contacted me for comment before posting the article. He just published it, while I was still in bed, and did so using a pseudonym. That's some punk-a$$ bull$hlt right there. 

Had he contacted me first, I'd have told him I wasn't involved, and had my lawyer looking into this already. He could have posted what he found, told readers I denied involvement (which I do, vehemently), and let them decide for themselves.

He didn't do that. From behind the shelter of anonymity, he told a flat out lie about me and my business, tying me to a fraud, one which could create future problems for me, beyond the hit to my reputation, and then he went and posted a link to that blog on this forum, on Reddit, and who knows where else. I know it's now on Facebook.

I've spent my day dealing with this. I'm in for a real fight. If you can't understand why I'm not up for jokes about it, you need a checkup from the neck-up.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Understandable Chris, nothing like this is ever easy.

Glad you got the lawyer involved ASAP, it’s always unnerving to see someone attempt to fix an issue like this without counsel. 

We’ll just keep buying the watches.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Maybe, don't know...
> 
> Here's what I think is about to happen.
> 
> ...


I don't think you are involved but how would any of us speaking up about something I assume nobody knows anything about help? Nobody on these forums knows anything about this how could we rightfully state one way or the other your lack of involvement, wouldn't that just be disingenuous?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Never mind


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



rscaletta said:


> It's a fraudulent document on its face. Anybody who says otherwise is just being a dumbass.


I don't disagree with those feelings but you can't make that statement without any information. It's a silly hill to stand on. I certainly don't think doc has anything to do with it. But I have nothing to refute those charges with nor do you or many others. It's best to let him defend himself. You can defend his character that you feel you know based on a forum dialog, but you can't defend the charges without emperical evidence.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JLS36 said:


> I don't disagree with those feelings but you can't make that statement without any information. It's a silly hill to stand on. I certainly don't think doc has anything to do with it. But I have nothing to refute those charges with nor do you or many others. It's best to let him defend himself. You can defend his character that you feel you know based on a forum dialog, but you can't defend the charges without emperical evidence.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


The document itself uses one person's email for another, and supplies nicknames/incorrect middle initials. You don't need expert testimony, son

Sorry-I'm not upset with you, I'm upset with the Internet


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JLS36 said:


> I don't think you are involved but how would any of us speaking up about something I assume nobody knows anything about help? Nobody on these forums knows anything about this how could we rightfully state one way or the other your lack of involvement, wouldn't that just be disingenuous?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Speaking up, *WHEN* it's discussed.

This is difficult for me to discuss here, on WUS.

The article was linked to in another thread. That link and all quotes with it were removed. That's forum moderator action, and forum rules prohibit discussion of moderator action. I think I may be in jeopardy of a temp ban just talking about this.

This forum isn't the only place the blog article is being discussed. There's a $hlt show happening in multiple other venues right now. It's probably best if I leave them unnamed, at least here, for the sake of not putting myself into further jeopardy with WUS mods.

Suffice to say, the haters and trolls are having a field day with this. I have a potentially huge legal problem, not just caused by the guy behind Ginault, but also by the blogger, who posted business filings with a residential address for me.

It's an old address, but it makes it easier for someone to find my current address. There's a family who lives at that address now.

My son is a witness in an upcoming criminal trial. It's not an exaggeration to say we've been scared for his safety, as well as the rest of our family. While the defendant in that trial isn't likely to find that article, the blogger shouldn't have included any reference to me or my business, and certainly not posted any documents with a residential address on them. That's out of bounds.

If you want to help, great. If not, at least have the courtesy not to quiz me about it.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

I’d take that last bit out Doc, no need to point out that fact. Just my .02.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

I don't know chris personally but it's an understatement to say he's nothing but an open book about his business and the watch business in general. Have to be careful with my words here but it blows my mind that someone would say they're "waiting for proof" before deciding if he's been in business with a guy who has created multiple fake aliases and was previously responsible for massive advancements in luxury goods counterfeiting. Really!?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

basso4735 said:


> I'd take that last bit out Doc, no need to point out that fact. Just my .02.


Which bit?

The address posted to the blog isn't my current address. My current address would be less easy to find, for various reasons, and I'm not really concerned that the defendant in the trial will find it.

The point is - the blogger put a residential address up on the web. That's potentially dangerous. He doesn't know if I live there, or if someone else does. Either way, he put a target on the front door, potentially.

Not all of my customers are far away. I've got a few in my hometown. Literally, they live just minutes away.

I've never had any reason to fear one of them would show up on my doorstep, but...people DM me on FB all the time, because it's apparently easier than emailing me or finding the support page on my website. Do I have to explain why I don't want people having my address?

How about this - while I'm on good terms with my local customers, I've had at least one threat of physical violence from one wacko KS backer, years ago. I've sold over 5,000 watches. Even if only 0.5% of my customers are out of their minds, that's still a pretty big group of people. Someone in there might just be motivated enough to take the time to try to cause problems for me.

The blogger acted irresponsibly, by posting the way he did. He should have contacted me first, and good sense would have dictated NOT posting any info about the fraudulent corp filings. He's implicated me in a fraud, and created who knows how many problems for me in the future.

He could have brought my attention to the fake corp filings without including it in the article. I'm not hard to find on the web.

My attorney plans to send the blogger a take-down/cease & desist letter. We'll have to contact WY about the corp filings. The ball is already in motion.

The discussion about this in some other venues is a complete $hlt-show.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

No worries, just figured there’s so many trolls out there, any additional info they can find can’t help.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Perhaps if this gets real bad we can start a go-fund me for a certain micro we all know and love that might help with a ..... I really wanna swear a lot here but I think some of you know what I mean.

Bunchoff%$kinggoofs What a great old Canadian Punk band!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

3WR said:


> meh. Ever consider a dive timer bezel?





docvail said:


> ... I'm not sure I follow. Is that not what we've been making, with all the other Subs?


Yes, of course, and they rule. My comment was a swing and a miss at breaking ba11s. Pooh-poohing the often requested 12 hr bezel. Felt like the type of reaction you've described. Make a change or fulfill a request, then hear about it from the people who liked it the old way.

Hope the blog/legal matter clears up.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Yup, this works.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Yes, of course, and they rule. My comment was a swing and a miss at breaking ba11s. Pooh-poohing the often requested 12 hr bezel. Felt like the type of reaction you've described. Make a change or fulfill a request, then hear about it from the people who liked it the old way.
> 
> Hope the blog/legal matter clears up.


It's been one of those weeks, bringing me to the point where I'm not seeing the humor when it's apparent. Not that I don't find it funny. I just can't even tell who's serious and who's screwing with me any more.

I've got another brand owner pinging me nonstop on FB DM, because we're both releasing new models with the same name. I've already got guys critiquing the appearance/features of the new model. Facebook and Instagram appear to have been hacked today, preventing us from revealing the other two new models.

This Ginault/TC thing is a complete $hlt-show. Other venues are not as heavily moderated as this one. It's a double-edged sword. They let the discussion happen, but they also let every troll and idiot have free run of the place. Here, some of the discussion has been shut down, for what I think are understandable reasons, but it just fuels speculation that this forum is protecting some parties to the affair, and limits my freedom to discuss it all openly. There's more that I know, but can't say.

I'm just trying to run my business and have a life. I have no idea what I did to make myself a target for the person or people behind Ginault/TC. But there are other guys out there, too - guys who I've rarely if ever interacted with, and never had anything remotely resembling an argument, yet for some reason, they clearly have some sort of axe to grind with me, and grind it they do, constantly.

I need to eat something, and have a drink. I think I need to just unplug from the internet for a while, and try to enjoy the 4th.

You cats be cool to each other while I'm taking a break.

I'm out.

PEACE!


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

Twehttam said:


> View attachment 14282881


Oh, damn. That handset is phenomenal.

The Amphion Commando isn't too shabby either.








Baller move, Chris. Siccing legal counsel on a blogger whose carelessness threatens you and your family and still dropping new releases.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Twehttam said:


> Yup, this works.
> 
> View attachment 14282881


Ho-lee s***. This is a very good configuration. Tell me that it has date.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Love the new Amphion. Cant wait to see the real life pics. Am a sucker for steel 12 hour bezels. This one has minutes too, super cool detail. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

That Tikuna...can’t wait to see in the flesh.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Wow pleasantly surprised with the 3 new models.. a step out to something different.

tikuna looks like deauville meets tron in the 60's


----------



## det55 (Apr 19, 2017)

I had to read that whole blog post out of morbid curiousity. It seems very well researched right up until the end. S/he (one of the commentators makes a valid point about an anonymous blogger revealing the alleged identities of others) seems to bring forth multiple pieces of evidence linking TC/Ginault/Tsung Chi but then brings up a dubious document with two names and is like "case closed, those two are guilty of something too." S/he doesn't even really define what it is you two did or what real proof they have. A very weird ending and the post would have been much more credible I think if it stuck to its main point. 

The link between TC/Ginault seems damning. I've only ever vaguely been aware of (and never interested in) the second of those two entities so I would be interested to see a rebuttal. The rest of it? Honestly I'm not even sure what they're getting at. There's no comparison to what Doc has been doing with NTH, just a name on a form. No photo medadata "forensics" either. I don't see NTH as being in the same vein as Ginault. They both are "inspired" by past watches, including Rolex, but NTH's seem to be inspired by a more broad spectrum of watches and seeks to find a unique take on them instead of copying directly. I understand Doc's concerns, and I would certainly panic as well if I wore his shoes, but as a reader of that post I just don't get it. 

Doc (you won't likely read my post since you're logged off and I'm sure there will be many others for you to catch up on), if you read this I wish you good luck. I can't see an intelligent reader taking your involvement seriously, so hopefully you're reputation won't suffer. Whatever risk it is you aren't telling us about has me worried more - mostly because I don't know/understand it. Good luck with that as well.


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Checked in on this thread after reading about the controversy on MoT's forum. Sad that people honestly think someone would sign a legal document using their forum handle. The blog was eye opening on many levels, but throwing mods here and Chris under the bus was in poor taste.

That being said, this new release has me wanting to break my WPAC commitment! It's been since Dec 22nd that I bought a watch for myself, but this might be the one!

Keep fighting the good fight Doc, have a happy 4th, and keep working on draining me from my paychecks. This thing looks spectacular!









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Looks like WordPress brought the page down


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Standing tall with you @docvail

Happy July 4th to my American Brothers south of Border. Drink, be merry but be safe.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sussa said:


> Baller move, Chris. Siccing legal counsel on a blogger whose carelessness threatens you and your family and still dropping new releases.


The show must go on.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> Ho-lee s***. This is a very good configuration. Tell me that it has date.


All the new models have date/no-date options.

Amphion Commando & Vanguard will have date window at 6. White date wheel for Vanguard, black wheel for Commando.

Tikuna will have it at ~4:33, and black date wheel, to avoid upsetting the dial symmetry by cutting out the 6 marker. People who hate date windows between 4 and 5 should buy the no-date, or a different watch, because that's where the date window will be.



DuckaDiesel said:


> Love the new Amphion. Cant wait to see the real life pics. Am a sucker for steel 12 hour bezels. This one has minutes too, super cool detail.


Yep. We thought it would be cool to do a combo bezel, and make the minutes a countdown timer, rather than a count-up. Makes it a good mission-timer.

We opted for a matte dial, and black markers on steel bezel, rather than lumed markers on black bezel, just because. I kind of liked the look of the Tudor P01, so we wanted to do something somewhat similar.



liquidtension said:


> Wow pleasantly surprised with the 3 new models.. a step out to something different.
> 
> tikuna looks like deauville meets tron in the 60's


Yeah, we wanted to start exploring what we could do with the Subs, by looking beyond the established vintage icons.

The Tikuna has a bit of inspiration from vintage Sicura, a little Longines Legend Diver, and a little flavor from some other stuff, but otherwise, it's all original.

It kind of gives me a 70's sci-fi vibe, but also feels like it could have come from a Russian brand.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

happy 4th to everyone! Just realized I set the wrong date as I typed that...for someone who is so insistent abt having a date wheel I do that often. enjoy your day all!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

det55 said:


> I had to read that whole blog post out of morbid curiousity. It seems very well researched right up until the end. S/he (one of the commentators makes a valid point about an anonymous blogger revealing the alleged identities of others) seems to bring forth multiple pieces of evidence linking TC/Ginault/Tsung Chi but then brings up a dubious document with two names and is like "case closed, those two are guilty of something too." S/he doesn't even really define what it is you two did or what real proof they have. A very weird ending and the post would have been much more credible I think if it stuck to its main point.
> 
> The link between TC/Ginault seems damning. I've only ever vaguely been aware of (and never interested in) the second of those two entities so I would be interested to see a rebuttal. The rest of it? Honestly I'm not even sure what they're getting at. There's no comparison to what Doc has been doing with NTH, just a name on a form. No photo medadata "forensics" either. I don't see NTH as being in the same vein as Ginault. They both are "inspired" by past watches, including Rolex, but NTH's seem to be inspired by a more broad spectrum of watches and seeks to find a unique take on them instead of copying directly. I understand Doc's concerns, and I would certainly panic as well if I wore his shoes, but as a reader of that post I just don't get it.
> 
> Doc (you won't likely read my post since you're logged off and I'm sure there will be many others for you to catch up on), if you read this I wish you good luck. I can't see an intelligent reader taking your involvement seriously, so hopefully you're reputation won't suffer. Whatever risk it is you aren't telling us about has me worried more - mostly because I don't know/understand it. Good luck with that as well.





Dub Rubb said:


> Checked in on this thread after reading about the controversy on MoT's forum. Sad that people honestly think someone would sign a legal document using their forum handle. The blog was eye opening on many levels, but throwing mods here and Chris under the bus was in poor taste.





liquidtension said:


> Looks like WordPress brought the page down


Yes, the blog post appears to have been taken down. It's unclear why. I suspect someone reported the doxxing to Wordpress. I doubt the blogger took it down himself.

I agree that the article would have come across as more professional, and credible, had he left me and Bo out of it. The inclusion of those WY biz filings has created suspicion around the blogger himself.

I don't just mean me. Some folks think he may have created the biz filings (I'm not clear on why), or point to that as proof that he was on some sort of anti-micro crusade, or since those docs are clearly frauds, all the rest of the stuff in the article is suspect. He didn't do himself any favors by including those docs, the way he did.

I was willing to chalk the doxxing (and the dubious conclusion about my involvement) up as a rookie mistake by an over-zealous investigator, but by the end of the day, I changed my mind. I was the first person to comment on the blog page. I did that early in the morning. He had all day to remove the fake biz docs and mention of me and my business.

He was online, all that time, posting here, and on Reddit. I was also posting in both places, publicly asking him to edit the article to remove those parts. I also emailed him, using the address he gave in the article.

He posted on Reddit when he got banned from WUS. That was after I replied directly to him over in the Ginault thread in the divers watches sub-forum.

If you read the article, I think anyone would have a hard time believing that he honestly believed I was involved. He clearly knew who I was. He said I owned NTH, and was a well-known presence on this forum.

How could he know who I am, and so much about me, AND so clearly see that the guy behind Ginault is a fraudster, and that my forum user name was used in some places (rather than my actual name), and the TC guy's email, AND yet, somehow believe those ridiculous biz documents were legit, and proof that I was involved?

I don't believe he actually thought that. It's just not plausible. I think he knew what he was saying was false, and would damage my reputation, and posted it anyway. If he was trying to do the right thing, he'd have contacted me first (I'm not hard to find), and kept my name out of the article.

He didn't need to include anything about the WY biz filings to make the case that TC and Ginault are one in the same.

And, if all of that just seems like a harsh reading of the situation, then answer me this...if he just made an honest mistake, and was truly interested in serving the public good, wouldn't he move swiftly to remove those documents, and my name from the article, once I and others made it clear that he was out of line?

I asked in my comment under his blog, over in the dive-watches thread, on Reddit, and in an email, that he remove those docs and mention of me from the article. He never responded. He left that stuff up there all day, and posted links everywhere he could. He may have been out to take down Ginault, but it seems clear that he also wanted to create problems for me.

Now I've gotten dragged into multiple stupid discussions about whether or not I'm really involved, and whether or not I'm justified in taking action, and whether or not I'm also working with a factory that produces fakes, and I should reveal my vendors, and what's a tort, blah, blah, blah.

I so didn't need to be involved in this. It was just a $hltty move he pulled.

Yes, I'm happy to be given notification that I've been pulled into a fake biz filing, but he could have provided me that info without posting it publicly, and he could have taken it down, or at the very least, blocked out my addresses, one of which is a private residence.

I don't know what happens next. We'd planned to send a take-down letter, but the article's been taken down already. The damage is done, either way.

In the meantime, we have to contact WY about the fake filings, and have them edited or voided.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Mikefable said:


> happy 4th to everyone! Just realized I set the wrong date as I typed that...for someone who is so insistent abt having a date wheel I do that often. enjoy your day all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Close enough. Happy Cinco de Julio!

Great photo. I tried and failed to bond with a Barracuda. This has officially kicked off the inevitable second guessing myself phase.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

3WR said:


> Great photo. I tried and failed to bond with a Barracuda. This has officially kicked off the inevitable second guessing myself phase.


Been there. My second Holland comes tomorrow.

Get another one.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> :snip:
> 
> We opted for a ... steel bezel ... because @hwa insisted it would look great. I'll be damned if he wasnt right.
> 
> :snip:


Fixed that for you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> Yup, this works.
> 
> View attachment 14282881


Yowza, that is not boring!

Unfortunately for me, I just saw Lion King. So when I see this watch, I hear two savanna animals singing. And to me, this will be the reference Tikuna Matata. Perhaps I can train myself to read this one backwards. The name "Anukit" has so silly baggage attached to it.









The first watch mod I did had those lines connecting 2-4, 8-10. I never figured out the origin story for that detail. Maybe the Sicura brand mentioned in another post?


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

3WR said:


> Close enough. Happy Cinco de Julio!
> 
> Great photo. I tried and failed to bond with a Barracuda. This has officially kicked off the inevitable second guessing myself phase.


Lol been there as well. Go for it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## csu87 (Feb 5, 2016)

3WR said:


> Yowza, that is not boring!
> 
> Unfortunately for me, I just saw Lion King. So when I see this watch, I hear two savanna animals singing. And to me, this will be the reference Tikuna Matata. Perhaps I can train myself to read this one backwards. The name "Anukit" has so silly baggage attached to it.
> 
> ...


Nice ginault


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> ...
> 
> Lastly, I have returned a watch before, but generally don't. I rip the plastic off and give it a test-drive for a couple weeks. If we haven't bonded, then I'll take my lumps and list it for sale. I'd rather spend some $ getting decent wrist-time to make sure first.
> 
> ...





Twehttam said:


> Been there. My second Holland comes tomorrow.
> 
> Get another one.


I was just about to say I'd recently read some good advice. Went back to see if I could find the source to give due credit. And it was you! I wish selling used was less of a hassle.

Congrats on renewing your vows with Holland. I saw a house the other day with blue and brown paint. I immediately thought of the Holland. That is bad enough. The fact that I almost took a picture to share here is troubling to me. I need a new hobby.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Yowza, that is not boring!
> 
> Unfortunately for me, I just saw Lion King. So when I see this watch, I hear two savanna animals singing. And to me, this will be the reference Tikuna Matata. Perhaps I can train myself to read this one backwards. The name "Anukit" has so silly baggage attached to it.
> 
> ...


Same idea.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

csu87 said:


> Nice ginault


?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

The Tikuna also has the Oris 65 vibe with the numerals. Guarantee this one will have better lume though!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> Tikuna will have it at ~4:33, and black date wheel, to avoid upsetting the dial symmetry by cutting out the 6 marker. People who hate date windows between 4 and 5 should buy the no-date, or a different watch, because that's where the date window will be.
> 
> ....


Solid choice. Solid advice.

*Not a request* On watches with those super prominent numbered indices, it would be interesting to see one of them actually be the date. Instead of a giant fixed "3", you'd have a giant changing date. Probably couldn't fit 31 large numbers on a regular date wheel. Might be possible with one of those setups where the ones digit and the tens digit are on separate, stacked wheels. *Not a request*


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Solid choice. Solid advice.
> 
> *Not a request* On watches with those super prominent numbered indices, it would be interesting to see one of them actually be the date. Instead of a giant fixed "3", you'd have a giant changing date. Probably couldn't fit 31 large numbers on a regular date wheel. Might be possible with one of those setups where the ones digit and the tens digit are on separate, stacked wheels. *Not a request*


In theory, it could be done, but there are some challenges.

First, the numbers on the date wheel are small, and we can't just make them bigger because we want them bigger. There's only so much space on that wheel with which to work.

Secondly, in the case of the Tikuna, imagine what that would look like. Instead of the current black number on field of lume, you'd have a rectangular hole in the lume, wherein you'd then have either a white number on a black background, or a black number on a white background.

I don't think that would look right.

If you look at images of big-date movements - what they look like under the dial - they usually have multiple date wheels. The 9015 doesn't.

We can't really do what you're suggesting, unless we design the dial around the date window/wheel, which to me seems like the tail wagging the dog.

The date window is only 2mm by 2.7mm, and its location in relation to the center point is fixed. That's not big enough or conveniently located enough for us to base an entire dial design around, when the dial size is already set by the case design.

Trust me, when we look at date windows, we're thinking about all this stuff. We put some thought into how best to present the date in a way that doesn't seem jarring to the eye. We look at location, date wheel color, frame shape, and frame treatment, all in relation to the dial elements. We're doing things as well as we can, and I think as well as possible, given the limiting factors we can't control.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

That Tikuna is wild. Very "tacticool" and a bit Vostok-y. I can see it joining the Sante Fe and the Bahia as my favorites of the sub lineup.

Props on going for more "out there" designs as you move the NTH subs forward.


----------



## Apogee84 (Jun 27, 2008)

I was about to take a pass and wait for the next round when I saw the Amphion Commando. Got that 1960's U2 pilot cold war vibe. Unfortunately, I have sworn off any new 3-handers for a while and am saving my pennies for a chrono (probably a used Sinn 103) but this one is tempting. Luckily, I have my new scorpene black to help keep me focused. Keep up the good work Doc. Really interesting designs!

Sent from my Hi8SE using Tapatalk


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

So sorry to hear about all these probs Chris. I don't have the time to read all these posts, but it seems like you've got it under control, or at least a plan is in place. 
There's very little I could do, but I probably know someone who knows someone who's licensed in WY. 
Feel free to call if I can help you.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> In theory, it could be done, but there are some challenges.
> 
> First, the numbers on the date wheel are small, and we can't just make them bigger because we want them bigger. There's only so much space on that wheel with which to work.
> 
> ...


I trust your date window due diligence. Not suggesting NTH should entertain the giant date idea. Just shooting the breeze.

If you/one/someone did, I'd envision a large date window cutout. Same shape/size as the three numbered indices. No lume around it on the dial. With a lumed date wheel(s) showing through. With black printed numbers in stylized font. The (probably required) stacked big-date setup would likely ruin the effect. The extra depth and two-piece-ness would be obvious and the date would look all stepped and broken up and weird. Instead of looking just like the three indices but with a different number.

Oh wait! Another problem. When 6 or 12 came up in the date window, the numbers could be in a similar style to the indices at 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock. But they'd have be shorter since the 9 o'clock index (and proposed date window cutout) are short and fat vs. 6/12 o'clock indices being tall and narrow.

New solution. 
Step 1: Buy a Tikuna no-date. 
Step 2: Wear it on the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th of each month. 
Step 3: Revel in the elegant large date goodness. 
(Point bezel at the appropriate index if necessary to remember which one is displaying the date that day.)


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Hey Doc.

I read that whole blog you've been referring to. I'll keep this short: As a customer I'm still 100% behind you and NTH. 

All I can do to help (besides buying another NTH) is to wear my Nacken to the beach today, perhaps one of the busiest beach days of the year. So I'll be supporting NTH, keeping accurate track of the time, and looking stylish doing it. Crazy that one little 40mm device can do so much!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Great new releases sir.

Hoping the best for you on this mess.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

mplsabdullah said:


> Great new releases sir.
> 
> Hoping the best for you on this mess.


This one...this one is magic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Best wishes on that clown show you got involved in, Doc. 

You keep on trucking and we’ll keep buying.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Twehttam said:


> Yup, this works.
> 
> View attachment 14282881


Might need to consider an hwa fixed bezel mod of this one...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It appears the only with-date illustration we have of the Commando is from the factory, and I don't like factory illustrations, so we'll wait on Rusty to gin one of those up.

In the meantime, here are the with-dates for Vanguard and Tikuna.

















I don't know if what I'm saying about the location of the date windows makes sense, but if it doesn't, here's Aaron's 2D illustration, with a red circle superimposed, indicating the outer perimeter of the date window (11.55mm from center).

If we wanted to design a dial around the date window, using the NTH Subs case and fixed dial diameter, we'd have to pull all the markers inward towards center, and make all the markers (or at least the primary hour markers) a 2mm x 2.7mm rectangle.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

After a superficial investigation which simply included staying on top of NTH Watches social media posts, I have it on good authority that this model will be restocked soon at a number of retailers throughout the world. Not wanting to name names, but it's the Odin black.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

View attachment 14284619


I don't know if I love the Tikuna or the Amphion Commando more...










...These designs really stand out on their own without being a homage of any specific watch. But I just cannot let my Carolina go...

Great release this time! And I wish you will get through the storm safe and sound!


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> In theory, it could be done, but there are some challenges.
> 
> First, the numbers on the date wheel are small, and we can't just make them bigger because we want them bigger. There's only so much space on that wheel with which to work.
> 
> ...


Who will you sell the tikuna through or can we just buy it on your site?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

If the real thing is faithful to the rendering, the tikuna date window is the most under the radar I've ever seen. I always say that "a date window should be sought and not seen". Very well done


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> Who will you sell the tikuna through or can we just buy it on your site?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I think Doc's stepped away from the computer for the day, but as I asked this during a previous run here's the answer I got IIRC: He makes a number of each piece, and the retailers get first hack. If they buy him out, we need to go to one of them. If he has a few pieces left, then you can get it from him. Just to be safe, I'm telling a couple of the retailers that I want one (or two).


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> I think Doc's stepped away from the computer for the day, but as I asked this during a previous run here's the answer I got IIRC: He makes a number of each piece, and the retailers get first hack. If they buy him out, we need to go to one of them. If he has a few pieces left, then you can get it from him. Just to be safe, I'm telling a couple of the retailers that I want one (or two).


Ty

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Sorry to read About all this mess. I Hope you get through this storm unbothered / without affection of your Business. 

Ive Been less active on the forum this year, but am reading occasionally. I don’t follow Every discussion and don’t know the story behind all of what has been Discussed. But from what i know about You, Chris, i wish you the best and that you come out of it fast. 

The tikuna Looks awesome. Really great Shot! 




Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> So...my week is getting more and more interesting.
> 
> No doubt some of you are aware of the blog post, apparently published earlier today, suggesting a link between me/my business, and TC/Ginault.
> 
> ...


Blimey Doc. I found the full article and actually read it, well most of it. OK I missed some large chunks. But ***** the man (I'm assuming it is a man) does go on and on and on and on and on and on. The whole thing about your alleged involvement is farcical in that who would use a forum name on a legal document? I mean come on......

I wish I had as much spare time to waste as this guy.......

.......sorry you've got to deal with this rubbish.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That Tikuna does kind of remind me of a Vostok.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Forever8895 said:


> I don't know if I love the Tikuna or the Amphion Commando more...


Also my "problem". Yesterday? Tikuna. Today? Commando.

That and I still am drawn to the Skipjack and Nacken Vintage Blue... and woe is me if Chris re-releases the Santa Fe or Nacken Vintage White. Not to mention my recent fascination with California dials.

At least I'm righting a wrong tomorrow...

It's continuing to be a fun summer.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Doggone go pro was out of batteries so no watch pics from surfing. Back home...this will have to do until I get back to the beach in a bit!



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Doh. New to this tapatalk thingy.









Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

If I'm not mistaken, all three new releases have new bezel inserts. 

Vanguard: 12 hour (different font than Catalina and no dots)
Tikuna: dots between numbers
Amphion Commando: color, hours, countdown, dots

Samples to Random Rob / Bruce Williams ASAP, please! Need a hit of that sweet live action watch video.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Happy 4th


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Forever8895 said:


> ...
> I don't know if I love the Tikuna or the Amphion Commando more...
> ...


Don't sleep on the Vanguard! I suspect it may be the surprise hit of the bunch. The others are exciting, but Vanguard perhaps more in the sweet spot of the Sub line's subtle design magic.

Applied indices, strong hands, yellow pops, low penalty date option. There is a lot to like.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Twehttam said:


> Also my "problem". Yesterday? Tikuna. Today? Commando.
> 
> That and I still am drawn to the Skipjack and Nacken Vintage Blue... and woe is me if Chris re-releases the Santa Fe or Nacken Vintage White. Not to mention my recent fascination with California dials.
> 
> ...


I want to say at least one will be re released soon and you'll be in a pickle to decide for sure! Good problem to have.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I skimmed that blog post. (Skipped over the parts involving WY, etc.) The main takeaways I picked up on were...

1. Somebody used to sell fake Rolex watches.
2. The watches are still being sold, but no longer being passed off as Rolex.

Is that about right?

Shame on them for #1. But what is wrong with #2? (Honest question, not rhetorical.) Did I miss something about the person stealing tooling, or designs, or other IP from Rolex?

Is it generally accepted that the watches being discusses are anywhere near the quality of Rolex?


----------



## andrewlogan1987 (Jul 9, 2013)

Ive stepped away from micro brands in the last couple years and im glad i did. With the latest shenanigans it seems like a bullet dodged

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> Who will you sell the tikuna through or can we just buy it on your site?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Awesome question.

For the moment, I haven't asked any of the retailers to commit to buying any yet, because it's still too soon. Theoretically, they'll all want a taste of my sweet Tikuna. But, whatever they don't buy first will be available on the website.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Also my "problem". Yesterday? Tikuna. Today? Commando.
> 
> That and I still am drawn to the Skipjack and Nacken Vintage Blue... and woe is me if Chris re-releases the Santa Fe or Nacken Vintage White. Not to mention my recent fascination with California dials.
> 
> ...


The Nacken Vintage White is back in production for delivery later this summer. I doubt we'll bring back the Santa Fe as long as people seem to prefer the Nacken Vintage White.

We've already got another Nazario in the works for later this year, and, trust me, it'll be sweet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

andrewlogan1987 said:


> Ive stepped away from micro brands in the last couple years and im glad i did. With the latest shenanigans it seems like a bullet dodged
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


Just stopped in to tell us you left, and are staying away?

Awesome.

You'll be missed.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Awesome question.
> 
> For the moment, I haven't asked any of the retailers to commit to buying any yet, because it's still too soon. Theoretically, they'll all want a taste of my sweet Tikuna. But, whatever they don't buy first will be available on the website.


Well this should be my first taste of vailsauce so please let me know how to purchase.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> Well this should be my first taste of vailsauce so please let me know how to purchase.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Like Dave said, best to get on a retailer's wait list, just in case demand proves to outstrip supply.

Every model is produced in finite numbers within each batch. Hard for me to know so soon after the reveal how much demand there will be by the time we get them in.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> The Nacken Vintage White is back in production for delivery later this summer.


Thank you!

My snowflake lust won't go unanswered forever. NVB or NVW is likely... NVW (like the NVB) also with the 90S5 (or 9039)?


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Damn these hand ankles.

Those are some sharply dressed Enths! 

Lucky there’s only five more months of waiting... hehehe... EX-ELL!

Too much sugar.. 

About the “blog”... Half hearted attempt to find it, failed to find it. Still lusting after Doc’s watches. Annoyed at ...... journalism. Now understand what doxxing is, somewhat(kind of thought it was shopping for Doxas on Boxing Day... waaaay off). 

Stand fast Doc.


Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

First outing for the red, white and blue Nazario is 4th of July fireworks.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> ...Theoretically, they'll all want a taste of my sweet Tikuna...


This would be a great sig! 

Doc Savage


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Vanguard design is super slick, very nice work, Doc. I know you already covered this a bit, but to expound on it, here are a few examples of different ways to do a big date watch. All of them would require a completely new design. Probably the most interesting is the ETA 2836-2 at the bottom, which splits the month in half, and has a cut out for the lower disc.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TheJohnP said:


> Might need to consider an hwa fixed bezel mod of this one...


Hey, fingers crossed, but waitll you see what I've cooked up this time! Should be ready to reveal inside of a week...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> Ty
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


If you're in the US, John Keil at watchgauge is your man.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> Also my "problem". Yesterday? Tikuna. Today? Commando.
> 
> That and I still am drawn to the Skipjack and Nacken Vintage Blue... and woe is me if Chris re-releases the Santa Fe or Nacken Vintage White. Not to mention my recent fascination with California dials.
> 
> ...


Looks like Watch Gauge website has Nacken Vintage White (no date) in stock. And a sweet blue Cali dial. Also the Nacken Vintage Blue.

That was too easy. I'm starting to suspect this won't be news to you.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

The article has been moved to another hosting, and the address has been removed.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

So maybe I've missed it in the avalanche of posts in this thread. 

Are these 3 new releases the standard Nth sizes or are these the XL watches you've been promising Doc?

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I would agree that the Vanguard is likely to be a sleeper hit. I wouldn't procrastinate if you're thinking of picking one up.

The Tikuna is suite, but the Vanguard has all the makings of a high-appeal watch.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Yesterday's problem: maybe I won't like the new NTH designs, and by the time I find out about them, other watches I like will be sold out.

Today's problem: I really, really like two of the new designs, will have to choose between the two, and not out until "late Summer."

I like the Vanguard with date, a lot. Love the stainless 12hr/countdown bezel on the Commando with date, less so the vintage lume. Still like the Scorpene Black and Nacken Vintage White, too, but they have def taken a backseat to the new releases...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Red PeeKay said:


> So maybe I've missed it in the avalanche of posts in this thread.
> 
> Are these 3 new releases the standard Nth sizes or are these the XL watches you've been promising Doc?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


The 3 new releases are standard 40mm Subs, the XL Sub has yet to surface..........

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

RPDK said:


> But I'm perfect?
> 
> Anyhow, sh(IT) happens - God knows, I have the pleasure of dealing with it for a living, and I'm sure there's a perfectly reasonable technical season. If the underlying (attempted) humorous tone of the post was not obvious, let it be clear: I have no beef with the vendor - but I would have used the Marcellus Wallace school of punishment, had I missed that watch (again)...
> 
> ...


Three weeks have passed, and I have now received my Brown Cuda - Hurraaah 

Not the first one sent to me mind you, no no, as that one may or may not have been stol... erhmm I mean disappeared from the local UPS Pickup Point. W4nkers. Booooohhh.

Seriouswatches have been extremely open and informative about the entire situation, and after a couple weeks of us hoping UPS would locate the package, they elected to ship me a replacement.

Being a SW+NTH virgin, the packaging alone was worth the additional wait. Quite the unboxing event.

Sizing the bracelet was a 2 min job - 1 minute spent on locating my tiny Lorier screwdriver, and the remaining 60 seconds to remove the links.

Dimensions are made for me, and fit is spot on. Lume on the bezel seems radioactive, where do I turn it off? 

Most other things a based of personal taste - ymmv, so I'll leave that out. But I will be a returning customer at SeriousWatches, and it will most likely be an NTH. Not until 2020 though...

Quite tricky to photograph, but I slapped it on the old hairy wrist and tried. Lots of colorways.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Just stopped in to tell us you left, and are staying away?
> 
> Awesome.
> 
> You'll be missed.


Laughed out loud. Literally.

Vintage Vail, innit.

Ric


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Thank you!
> 
> My snowflake lust won't go unanswered forever. NVB or NVW is likely... NVW (like the NVB) also with the 90S5 (or 9039)?


Yes.

Models with date/no-date options will have either the 9015 or 90S5.

Models which are no-date only will have the 9039.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



captainmorbid said:


> Damn these hand ankles.
> 
> Those are some sharply dressed Enths!
> 
> ...


The new models are less than five months away. They should be ready before end of summer. We've had them in the works for a while.

The blog is back up on another site. But, if you don't feel like spending 3 hours sifting through it all, just to get to the bottom and see a bunch of false claims about me, a forum moderator and Wrist Watch Review, you don't need to go looking for it.

It does strike me as a bit coincidental that the blogger makes allegations about the same folks the guy behind Ginault/TC appears to hate.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> The article has been moved to another hosting, and the address has been removed.


Not all the addresses.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Yesterday's problem: maybe I won't like the new NTH designs, and by the time I find out about them, other watches I like will be sold out.
> 
> Today's problem: I really, really like two of the new designs, will have to choose between the two, and not out until "late Summer."
> 
> I like the Vanguard with date, a lot. Love the stainless 12hr/countdown bezel on the Commando with date, less so the vintage lume. Still like the Scorpene Black and Nacken Vintage White, too, but they have def taken a backseat to the new releases...


Just to clarify - the Commando's lume is that "Natural" color, the same we use on the Bahia, Nacken Vintage Blue, and Nacken Vintage Black. It's not the darker, more beige lume we used on the Santa Cruz, Oberon, original Nazario, or Amphion Vintage Black/Blue.

It's just a touch more yellow than C3.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> The new models are less than five months away. They should be ready before end of summer. We've had them in the works for a while.
> 
> The blog is back up on another site. But, if you don't feel like spending 3 hours sifting through it all, just to get to the bottom and see a bunch of false claims about me, a forum moderator and Wrist Watch Review, you don't need to go looking for it.
> 
> It does strike me as a bit coincidental that the blogger makes allegations about the same folks who the guy behind Ginault/TC appears to hate.


Before the originally blog got taken down I had a bit of a convo with the Jackass. I accused him of being one of those social media influencer types that love to harass you. He did not seem to like that haha. I also thought of making a few different Anonymous named accounts and have some fun like i used to years ago on the world wide web but that is what trolls want? Too much time it would take on a some but hurt man living in his Granny's house. He is not worth it.

Fack him in his soulless face!!!!

Anyways we still love you Doc.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> Yes.
> 
> Models with date/no-date options will have either the 9015 or 90S5.
> 
> Models which are no-date only will have the 9039.


Again, I thank you. 

Now it's just down to design...


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> Well this should be my first taste of vailsauce so please let me know how to purchase.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Was getting ready to look up the definition of "vailsauce", and then my Commodore era internal processor came to life and, oh, I get it.

Maybe another lapse of synapse activity, but has the case diameter of the Vanguard and Tikuna been mentioned?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

"Vailsauce" -- ew... just sayin'...


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

docvail said:


> I kind of liked the look of the Tudor P01, so we wanted to do something somewhat similar.


The first time I saw the P01 I thought it was a modded SKX to homage the Black Bay Steel. The Amphion Commando is far better looking than the P01, and will cut a better profile than the Black Bay, plus sword hands(!). Not sure how I feel about the stacked numbers, however it offers far more utility in daily life than a dive bezel...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

RmacMD said:


> Was getting ready to look up the definition of "vailsauce", and then my Commodore era internal processor came to life and, oh, I get it.
> 
> Maybe another lapse of synapse activity, but has the case diameter of the Vanguard and Tikuna been mentioned?


They are Subs, so 40mm.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

As promised. My wife came with me for the evening session.









Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Toonces said:


> As promised. My wife came with me for the evening session.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh. And you posted photos of ... you? That's cool. Not what I thought might be waiting in the thread when I saw the first sentence preview in Tapatalk.

Nice photos all the same. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Even better in the light of day! Good luck topping this Nazario, Doc/John.

I recall the recent on-the-pot Nazario photo. And have some newfound empathy. I realized today that a lot of my watch admiring takes place at a urinal. If I had a free hand, there's a chance I'd forget my surroundings and snap a wrist shot.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Jeez, I leave for vacation and this happens? wtf...

Doc, I hope you 
1) sue the proverbial sh** off of the Ginault arsehole for filing those WY docs & attempting identity theft, and 
2) sue that reddit/4chan "investigator" for libel. Little f***er explicitly wrote in his blog post that you were linked to all this sh**, that's defamation/libel plain and simple.

and ofc point 0: get the state of WY to void those filings. 


As a sidenote, idk what kind of a connection the guy running toxicNATOs website has in all this, but based on his postings on other forums, either he is the "investigator"/blogger, or he's just incredibly thick and kind of a d-bag.


----------



## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

I don’t think digging up the fraud Chi committed against Bo and Doc is anything to be mad about. At least all parties know about it now. And this is big enough that those falsely accused will be vindicated.

That said, I would definitely take legal action against Chi. The guy is a serial liar and fraudster. If my name was attached to him in any way I’d thank the messenger and sue the .... out of Chi.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Robotaz said:


> I don't think digging up the fraud Chi committed against Bo and Doc is anything to be mad about. At least all parties know about it now. And this is big enough that those falsely accused will be vindicated.


It's one thing to say "why is this TC guy using pseudonyms of another brand owner and forum mod" when digging this up.

It's another thing to literally say "cmsgt Bo and chris vail have been partners with this TC guy" - which is that that little sh** blogger did, about two sentences below asking about pseudonyms. That's defamation. F*** him.


----------



## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> It's one thing to say "why is this TC guy using pseudonyms of another brand owner and forum mod" when digging this up.
> 
> It's another thing to literally say "cmsgt Bo and chris vail have been partners with this TC guy" - which is that that little sh** blogger did, about two sentences below asking about pseudonyms. That's defamation. F*** him.


I didn't notice that or take away anything like that.

Edit - I did notice the OP had been banned and sounded bitter. I'm neutral on the banning here since it's a for-profit forum. None of my business.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The new models are less than five months away. They should be ready before end of summer. We've had them in the works for a while.


No hurry, still broke.

I'm just attempting to be consistent... ish.

I've never really looked foreword to a watch release at quite this level before, it makes me feel a bit filthy.

As for the other stuff...

People on the internet seem to operate like they've never been decked in the mouth before. "Consequences be damned" is not quite a modus operandi to live by, in order to achieve a > human algae standing.

Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Jeez, I leave for vacation and this happens? wtf...
> 
> Doc, I hope you
> 1) sue the proverbial sh** off of the Ginault arsehole for filing those WY docs & attempting identity theft, and
> ...





Robotaz said:


> I don't think digging up the fraud Chi committed against Bo and Doc is anything to be mad about. At least all parties know about it now. And this is big enough that those falsely accused will be vindicated.
> 
> That said, I would definitely take legal action against Chi. The guy is a serial liar and fraudster. If my name was attached to him in any way I'd thank the messenger and sue the .... out of Chi.





X2-Elijah said:


> It's one thing to say "why is this TC guy using pseudonyms of another brand owner and forum mod" when digging this up.
> 
> It's another thing to literally say "cmsgt Bo and chris vail have been partners with this TC guy" - which is that that little sh** blogger did, about two sentences below asking about pseudonyms. That's defamation. F*** him.


Uhm...

The blogger had fantastic timing. He posted his article the morning before the USA has a four-day weekend. Plus, even I didn't realize my lawyer had changed firms. Wednesday was literally his 3rd day in the new office. So, obviously, he isn't yet all over this.

Our main concern is the fraudulent biz filings. Those need to be addressed before I get dragged into some bigger BS than a blog article.

Let me try to address all this as dryly as I can...

1. The blogger wasn't doing me any favors.

Yes, it's great that I know about the phony WY filings. But, after all the evidence he turned up showing the TC guy is a pathological fraudster, it should have been obvious the biz filings were frauds. The right thing to do would have been to let me know (I'm not hard to find), and keep them out of the article.

What he did instead is post them, anonymously, along with un-redacted addresses for me and my family, saying - unequivocally - that I'm a partner with the TC guy, and asking if I know about his criminal past.

He doxxed me. It's not illegal, yet, but it ought to be. It's certainly unethical. Potentially, if it could be proven he did it with the intent to intimidate, threaten, incite harm, or extort me, then it would in fact be a crime.

The doxing may not be illegal, but, by saying I'm involved in a fraud, that may be libel.

People want to argue that he qualified his statements, and I'll admit that there is some small amount of "it appears" in his text, but it's followed by less equivocal language, and the open question about what I know of my so-called partner's criminal past. No one with any reading comprehension would think that he's casting doubt over the veracity of the WY biz filing, or my involvement. His original text said - without qualification - that I was an undisclosed business partner of TC.

So, he doxxed me, anonymously, and smeared me, and then he went and posted that link - again, anonymously - here, on Reddit, and who knows where else. He never gave any thought to any problems he might be causing for people who in fact have nothing to do with any of this by doing what he did.

My phone blew up with alerts before I was even out of bed yesterday. Even now, every few hours, I'll get another message from someone asking me if I know about it, or expressing their support, or asking how they can help, etc, etc, etc.

2. Terry from ToxicNatos -

He got banned from WUS years ago. I have no idea why. About a year or so ago, I noticed he seemed to have some axe to grind with me, so I went back and tried to see if we'd ever exchanged any words, here, or anywhere else. As far as I could tell, we never did.

I still have no idea what I did to steal the jam from his donut. He seems to enjoy making snarky remarks about me whenever opportunity arises, usually on another forum, where he seems to have a large presence. Perhaps not surprisingly, he's making some hay out of this whole Ginault thing.

I found out after the event that he was at the NY GTG held by the Diver's Watches Group on FB, and even stopped by my table, yet somehow managed to avoid me knowing he was there. Had I known, I'd have said a polite hello, and asked him what I did to earn his scorn, but apparently he didn't want me to know he was in the room.

Whatever his deal is, I hope he gets over it, and can move on. I can't imagine it's very productive for him to be fixated on me and whatever I'm up to.

3. Vindication -

I don't think there is such a thing on the internet.

Here's what will most likely happen - my attorney will get WY to void the fraudulent biz filings. All the haters and trolls will just say that's proof I actually *WAS* involved, but had the biz docs voided when I "got exposed". God forbid we can't get the biz filings voided, and this becomes a long, drawn out process. All the haters will just say there you go, proof that I *AM* involved.

I can't ever "prove" my innocence to such an absolute certainty that the doubters will all be satisfied forevermore. But, no one will ever "prove" my guilt, because I had nothing to do with any of this, which ought to be obvious to anyone looking at it all.

My signature isn't on those docs. It's not my full legal name. The address used for me is a jumbled up residential address and PO box address, both of which I stopped using years before the filing. Surely if I was going to be involved in a venture for profit, I would make sure the founding documents had my correct legal name and address, no?

How anyone could possibly credit those docs as being enough to suspect I might actually be involved is beyond me.

What's left to do?

I'll be speaking to my attorney as soon as I can next week, and hopefully getting him to bless off on a formal statement I can issue, for all the good it will do. We'll get the ball rolling on voiding the WY documents. I'll get back to focusing on running my business, and as Steve from Raven once told me, "we'll let the internet sort itself out."


----------



## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Doc, I feel for ya. I agree the WY filing is your biggest problem, which is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. Hassle, yes. Mess, no. Sorry if I downgrade what the blogger did to you. You’re right he could have done this differently. I think he has a beef with WUS and dragged you in. Sucks. 

Call me an optimist, but I love seeing good people rise out of a dust storm of internet ..... You’ll be fine.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Robotaz said:


> Doc, I feel for ya. I agree the WY filing is your biggest problem, which is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. Hassle, yes. Mess, no. Sorry if I downgrade what the blogger did to you. You're right he could have done this differently. I think he has a beef with WUS and dragged you in. Sucks.
> 
> Call me an optimist, but I love seeing good people rise out of a dust storm of internet ..... You'll be fine.


I am fine.

The WY thing most likely doesn't pose a very large problem now, but my attorney says there's exposure there, in the future, so we need to get the docs voided.

Depending on how much time and money this sucks up, I may have to go on the offensive, going after the blogger and whoever filed those docs in my name. Not because I expect to get out of them what I lost dealing with this, but as a warning to others not to pull this $hlt. If I have to burn a few bad guys down to the ground, just to make it clear I'm willing to go that far in protection of my name, family, and business, then so be it.

The silver lining here, in my experience, is that this sort of thing inevitably ends up helping my business.

Part of it is "there's no such thing as bad press." Every mention of my brand drives traffic to my site. Thank you to all those who keep stirring the pot. Your negative comments only benefit me.

Additionally, it seems that sensible people empathize with what I'm going through, and start to feel a desire to support me, and by extension, my business. People inevitably see I handle things pretty well, no matter what, and it just brings new fans into the fold.

I can't say I'm not at least a little concerned that someone might see the discussion, assume the accusations are true on the surface, and as a result, we've lost a potential customer. But, the data analytics strongly suggest that most customers are either doing a good bit of online research before making a purchase, or, conversely, they spend almost no time online discussing watches at all, so it seems unlikely I'll lose any potential customers just because a few wankers want to spread gossip.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, apparently Rusty thought he had a 4-day weekend, too, but he ain't a lawyer, and if I'm working, errbuddy working...


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Just to clarify - the Commando's lume is that "Natural" color, the same we use on the Bahia, Nacken Vintage Blue, and Nacken Vintage Black. It's not the darker, more beige lume we used on the Santa Cruz, Oberon, original Nazario, or Amphion Vintage Black/Blue.
> 
> It's just a touch more yellow than C3.


I am glad you brought that up as from the renders it looked like its yellow like santa cruz. Its even cooler watch now knowing that indices will not have fake patina.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Also, apparently Rusty thought he had a 4-day weekend, too, but he ain't a lawyer, and if I'm working, errbuddy working...
> 
> View attachment 14286833


Man you are a bastid to work for!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## oldfatherthames (Aug 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> Our main concern is the fraudulent biz filings. Those need to be addressed before I get dragged into some bigger BS than a blog article.
> 
> Let me try to address all this as dryly as I can...
> ...


Where's the point in bringing up Terry from ToxicNatos here on WUS when he never took part in any discussion here on WUS about this story and when he cannot react to your post here on WUS as he's banned here on WUS as you have stated?

I didn't follow each and every post about this whole cringeworthy story on the web, only some and I also read the blog post, but when I read your post mentioning him I was astonished because it was the first time his name came up in this filthy context.
I did a Google then and found a thread about the issue at thedivewatchconnection. Probably the forum you only vaguely called "another forum, where he seems to have a large presence".
And I was even more astonished to find that you as a member were active in that thread and answered to him. So while there is a board where both of you can meet and post, WUS is not that place, which makes me even more wonder why you bring him up ... here on WUS.

Cheers!
Bernd


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

oldfatherthames said:


> And I was even more astonished to find that you as a member were active in that thread and answered to him. So while there is a board where both of you can meet and post, WUS is not that place, which makes me even more wonder why you bring him up ... here on WUS.
> 
> Cheers!
> Bernd


What is so astonishing about Doc being a member of other watch fora?

And if you'd bothered to read back a few posts, you'll see that Elijah brought up Terry's name.

Do try to keep up.

Cheers!

Ian.


----------



## oldfatherthames (Aug 20, 2015)

Ian_61 said:


> What is so astonishing about Doc being a member of other watch fora?


Nothing at all unless you wonder as I did, why he brought his name up here, when they already had their exchange there.

But ...



Ian_61 said:


> And if you'd bothered to read back a few posts, you'll see that Elijah brought up Terry's name.


... this clears it up for me and I thank you!

Cheers!
Bernd


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

RPDK said:


> Being a SW+NTH virgin, the packaging alone was worth the additional wait. Quite the unboxing event.


Your BB looks great! Congrats!

And, yes, I agree...

































Ahhh, much better now.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

oldfatherthames said:


> Where's the point in bringing up Terry from ToxicNatos here on WUS when he never took part in any discussion here on WUS about this story and when he cannot react to your post here on WUS as he's banned here on WUS as you have stated?
> 
> I didn't follow each and every post about this whole cringeworthy story on the web, only some and I also read the blog post, but when I read your post mentioning him I was astonished because it was the first time his name came up in this filthy context.
> I did a Google then and found a thread about the issue at thedivewatchconnection. Probably the forum you only vaguely called "another forum, where he seems to have a large presence".
> ...


I'm guessing you overlooked this post, which I quoted in my post, the same post of mine which you quoted...



docvail said:


> X2-Elijah said:
> 
> 
> > ...As a sidenote, idk what kind of a connection the guy running toxicNATOs website has in all this, but based on his postings on other forums, either he is the "investigator"/blogger, or he's just incredibly thick and kind of a d-bag.
> ...


I was responding here, to someone who brought Terry up here. I can't help that Terry can't respond here. He got himself banned from WUS. Like I said, I don't know why, and best I can tell, I had nothing to do with it. What would he say, if he could respond?

I've responded to Terry's comments about me online a few times. Each time, he plays innocent, like he's not stirring the pot, and not talking trash about me. Typical troll move.

We were in the same room together. If he wanted to clear the air, he had his opportunity. I'd have been happy to hash it out, man to man, and bury the hatchet.

For the record, I've never said anything negative about him or his business, anywhere, until today, and I was only responding to someone who brought up his posts on Reddit - his posts ABOUT ME.

I took the initiative to reply directly to Terry, several times, in threads on Reddit, and I went out of my way to reach him on the other forum (WUS rules discourage, if not prohibit mention of competing forums, which is why I didn't mention the name), and took the high road with him, every time. I was direct, but I was polite.

Instead of clearing the air, he's still stirring the pot. I'll let his posts and mine stand for themselves. I don't think I owe it to him to go and find him on his "home turf", when he's chosen to play the game he's been playing. Why would I waste my energy? He talks trash, then denies it. What is there to gain by engaging with him further?

Whatever his problem with me is, it's his problem, not mine. I've never done or said anything to hurt his business. I never had any interaction with him at all until I saw him going around talking trash about me online.

I wish him well. I also wish he'd put down that baggage he's carrying around.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14286833


It would be SO awesome if the date was lumed, like on the Draken Tugela ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> It would be SO awesome if the date was lumed, like on the Draken Tugela ...


So when you're diving, you can still see the date...


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> Avo said:
> 
> 
> > It would be SO awesome if the date was lumed, like on the Draken Tugela ...
> ...


Or the logo on the crown...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Or the logo on the crown...












Fine.

I don't do it because I don't like re-printing date wheels. It causes a lot of problems, and the benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Lumed date wheels are neat, but considering how little room there is, I imagine they're going to fade mighty quick. A lumed big date on the other hand....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Lumed date wheels are neat, but considering how little room there is, I imagine they're going to fade mighty quick. A lumed big date on the other hand....
> 
> View attachment 14287351


Don't get me wrong. I give Mike at Draken and Phil at Visitor props for luming the numbers on the date wheel. That's a very cool detail. It's just not one I think adds enough value - in MY watches - to make me want to do it.

We re-printed date wheels on the Acionna and the Spectre. It led to problems and delays, and a higher reject rate. I decided I didn't want to screw around re-printing date wheels any more. I heard Peter Helson swore off color-matched date wheels because of the hell he went through trying to match the dial colors on the Shark Divers.

In theory, assuming you had the date set correctly all day, and it was soaking up the light, it ought to glow for at least a few hours after dark, but the glow intensity and duration is a function of lume quantity. Those little date numbers are really small. You probably won't get much brightness or duration out of a lumed date.

If you load up on the lume, that's one of the things that leads to problems. It can lead to the date wheel getting stuck under the dial, or so I've been told. I didn't used to think that things measured in microns would have a big impact, but I was wrong. I've been shown, repeatedly, that every micron inside a watch has an effect.

It's a cool detail. Does a lumed date add functionality? Arguably, yeah, I guess, if you forget the date after the sun goes down. It's certainly more useful than a lumed crown, if that's the argument to be had.

But, is it useful in the way lume is generally useful, in that it makes the time more readable in the dark? No, in that sense, it's no more useful than a lumed crown, but a lumed crown doesn't require us to mess with the movements, so that's where we put our extra lume.


----------



## Ticktocker (Oct 27, 2009)

I say this with total respect for Doc Vail and I can't be the only one thinking this....... I just don't know how to be less blunt about it.......... You don't have to prove anything here. Just a friendly suggestion......talking watches till you turn blue is great but any legal matters should be between you and your attorney. 

I have never heard of or seen so much posted on a public forum..... a watch forum at that, about a pending lawsuit. Anyone ever heard of not talking about your legal matters in public? The members here commenting on Doc Vails legal matters is kind of crazy. Any attorney worth their fees will tell you to not talk about anything regarding the case to anyone..... especially on a public watch forum.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ticktocker said:


> I say this with total respect for Doc Vail and I can't be the only one thinking this....... I just don't know how to be less blunt about it.......... You don't have to prove anything here. Just a friendly suggestion......talking watches till you turn blue is great but any legal matters should be between you and your attorney.
> 
> I have never heard of or seen so much posted on a public forum..... a watch forum at that, about a pending lawsuit. Anyone ever heard of not talking about your legal matters in public? The members here commenting on Doc Vails legal matters is kind of crazy. Any attorney worth their fees will tell you to not talk about anything regarding the case to anyone..... especially on a public watch forum.


Here's the thing...

It ain't like I'm bringing it up over and over. I'm just responding to other people's posts about it.

If I don't respond at all - the haters and trolls say I don't want to talk about it, so I must be guilty. The less I say, the more guilty I look, according to them. Also according to them, the more I say, the more guilty I look. If I say I don't want to talk about it, the haters will ask what I'm hiding.

Also, the sum total of my statements have been - I don't have anything to do with the docs, they're fraudulent, my attorney will be working on it, and our focus is on having the fraudulent docs voided. Others have suggested I sue. All I've said is we're focused on the biz filings, and I don't know what else is going to happen until I see how things play out.

It's not like I've been arrested for a crime, in which scenario, a criminal attorney would say I should say nothing, rather than risk incriminating myself with my public statements. I'm not accused of a crime, there's no risk of incriminating myself. I'm the injured party here.

Talking watches is pretty much all I do online. I've always been transparent about everything going on in my business. People want to talk about this? Okay, talk about it. I'm not going to tell anyone not to, because they're just going to talk about it anyway, and maybe more if I say not to, because that then becomes another thing to talk about, and again, if I say I don't want people talking about it, there must be a reason (wink, wink), right?

I don't care what people talk about, or what they say. Everyone with any sense knows I'm not involved in this, and everyone who says I do, or that I might, is going to look stupid eventually.

My focus is on my business. My business is making and selling watches. But a lot of that is driven by my online engagement. I've never limited the discussion topics I'd entertain. I will literally - not figuratively - talk about whatever people want to talk about. How do I keep my business going if I stop doing the very thing that's propelled it to this point?

I ain't driving discussion of this whole thing. It's got a momentum of its own, and that momentum will peter out on its own.

I'm happy to talk about the new designs, or where the date window should be, or luming the date numbers, or whatever. It's a party. Everyone is invited. I'm not trying to engineer the scripts for everyone.


----------



## Earl Grey (Aug 17, 2013)

Sorry if I missed it, but is there going to be a date version of the Amphion Commando? Only have had a passing interest in the NTH subs, but this one, with date, would be one of the most versatile (and also good-looking) watches out there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

I’m not a customer, but I just wanted to go on record that Chris should defend himself to the fullest extent legally possible. Identity theft sucks. 

Of everything uncovered by the blog, the WY documents are the most concerning IMO.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

All I heard was lumed crown









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Earl Grey said:


> Sorry if I missed it, but is there going to be a date version of the Amphion Commando? Only have had a passing interest in the NTH subs, but this one, with date, would be one of the most versatile (and also good-looking) watches out there.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Only because I enjoy your tea...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ryeguy said:


> I'm not a customer, but I just wanted to go on record that Chris should defend himself to the fullest extent legally possible. Identity theft sucks.
> 
> Of everything uncovered by the blog, the WY documents are the most concerning IMO.


They're certainly the thing my lawyer is most concerned about.


----------



## deepcdvr (Dec 31, 2007)

docvail said:


> I've responded to Terry's comments about me online a few times. Each time, he plays innocent, like he's not stirring the pot, and not talking trash about me. Typical troll move.
> .


Doc,

I tend never to comment on these types of posts, but in this case I feel you are being disingenuous.

I don't know you nor do I know of any involvement you may have with the TC debacle, but I think you are not being honest about Terry as we told you on the other forum. Your credibility was sound until you attacked Terry - all he said was that you were "screaming" about your innocence on another forum ; most of us read that as understandable if you are innocent of any involvement. Maybe a bad choice of words from Terry, but certainly not trolling.

For those of us that have read every (public) story and post on this issue, you are starting to look like you are throwing shade on a guy who doesn't deserve it. Why would you do that, one wonders...


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Did not screw up sizing this one. :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

deepcdvr said:


> Doc,
> 
> I tend never to comment on these types of posts, but in this case I feel you are being disingenuous.
> 
> ...


See...here we go. I was ready to offer a cut-and-dry response, until I got to that part at the end, "why would you do that, one wonders..." - meaning what, exactly?

You're referring to ONE single exchange. An exchange in which Terry did EXACTLY what I've said. He made a snarky remark about me, then played it off as if he's got no axe to grind.

But, go and read his comments about me on Reddit, in that thread about this blog post, and in other threads about NTH. Go and read his comments about me in threads on FB.

Until today, I have NEVER said anything about him publicly. But, he's been taking swipes at me going back at least 3 years.

Did I say his comments on Reddit make him look like a d-bag? Nope. That wasn't me. That was someone else's unprompted assessment, and he's not the first person to ask me what's up Terry's a$$ (as if I'd know).

Why would people ask me what Terry's problem is?

I'm not being disingenuous. I'm being entirely genuine. If someone skulks around, constantly making snide little remarks about another person, then acts like they weren't doing it, that's typical troll behavior.

Like I said, whatever his problem with me is, it's his problem, not mine. He can keep it going or he can let it go. I've never said or done anything to hurt his business. The more trash he talks about me, the worse he looks.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

DuckaDiesel said:


> All I heard was lumed crown
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did someone mention lume? 









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

deepcdvr said:


> Doc,
> 
> I tend never to comment on these types of posts, but in this case I feel you are being disingenuous.
> 
> ...


Respectfully (I've never had a presence in that other forum), reading through the thread, I got a very distint impression that this Terry was doing everything he could to cast docvail in a bad light and then crying sheep when called out on it. His seeming inability to grasp the concept (or harm) of doxxing was also a major red flag for me. I'm guessing he is not a considerate person, based on that.

But it's cool, I realize that on those forums, he's probably the local folk hero or something. Just saying, his posts make it look like he's kind of a d-bag. Take what you will from it.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Red PeeKay said:


> Did someone mention lume?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Three can play that game...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ticktocker said:


> I say this with total respect for Doc Vail and I can't be the only one thinking this....... I just don't know how to be less blunt about it.......... You don't have to prove anything here. Just a friendly suggestion......talking watches till you turn blue is great but any legal matters should be between you and your attorney.
> 
> I have never heard of or seen so much posted on a public forum..... a watch forum at that, about a pending lawsuit. Anyone ever heard of not talking about your legal matters in public? The members here commenting on Doc Vails legal matters is kind of crazy. Any attorney worth their fees will tell you to not talk about anything regarding the case to anyone..... especially on a public watch forum.


Part of the reason I stick around this thread (and almost nowhere else on WUS) despite not owning an NTH for a couple of years now is because Doc is so open about his business. It's very easy for a microbrand owner to show up and post a few comments about new models, and then go radio silent until the next launch. It's far more difficult to show up practically every day, argue with us watch obsessed lunatics, and explain the often ugly realities of running a microbrand and a small business in general. This was such a big issue that it's practically guaranteed that folks here would start asking about it if Doc didn't say anything, and just replying with "I can't comment on a legal matter" would be out of character. I'm sure he's well aware of what should and shouldn't be posted in a public forum in terms of anything that might potentially compromise a case. So far all I've seen boils down to "here's what this guy posted about me, here's why it's complete BS."

Anyone that would buy into it I think obviously doesn't know Doc and NTH very well. Is there another microbrand owner who's more transparent than Doc about where and how their watches are made? If there is, I'm not aware of them.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Gahh. I come back from two weeks of vacation and check the forum hoping for new pics/renders of up-and-coming subs. Instead I get all this drama and nonsense.

"Oh look, there's a d-bag on the interwebs doing d-bag stuff."

Bluracuda and I are unimpressed. Less text, more watch pics, please.









Also, the term "Vailsauce" should be banned, along with the wrist shot pics Rusty took on the crapper. Both of these things are crimes against nature.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

deepcdvr said:


> Doc,
> 
> I tend never to comment on these types of posts, but in this case I feel you are being disingenuous.
> 
> ...


Nah. Terry's not up to nothin'...

























He ain't stirring the pot (even though he's giddily stirring the pot here)...
















































^I thought maybe he'd chill out, after that. He seemed sincerely contrite.

But...nope. Here he is not long after, in a thread discussing one of my watches...

















Don't anyone dare suggest he's got an axe to grind, either, because if you do, you need to do some research, according to Terry...









Nope, no axe to grind here...

























"Pretty $hltty"? I got doxed. There's a difference between someone having to go scouring through government records to find multiple residential addresses for me, and someone putting them up on the web in a blog, linking to it everywhere, and saying I'm tied to some sort of criminal conspiracy.

Please, tell me again how disingenuous I'm being.

While you're at it, go find the posts from me, all over this forum, Facebook, and Reddit, running him and his business down, sowing doubt about his character, doing my best to make sure people don't want to do business with him.

I'll wait.


----------



## Ticktocker (Oct 27, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> Part of the reason I stick around this thread (and almost nowhere else on WUS) despite not owning an NTH for a couple of years now is because Doc is so open about his business. It's very easy for a microbrand owner to show up and post a few comments about new models, and then go radio silent until the next launch. It's far more difficult to show up practically every day, argue with us watch obsessed lunatics, and explain the often ugly realities of running a microbrand and a small business in general. This was such a big issue that it's practically guaranteed that folks here would start asking about it if Doc didn't say anything, and just replying with "I can't comment on a legal matter" would be out of character. I'm sure he's well aware of what should and shouldn't be posted in a public forum in terms of anything that might potentially compromise a case. So far all I've seen boils down to "here's what this guy posted about me, here's why it's complete BS."
> 
> Anyone that would buy into it I think obviously doesn't know Doc and NTH very well. Is there another microbrand owner who's more transparent than Doc about where and how their watches are made? If there is, I'm not aware of them.


Everyone reacts differently when it comes to accusations. In my opinion, commenting about personal and business legal matters to strangers on the internet can not only seem unprofessional but never a good thing and can come back to bite you when you least expect it. It's a totally different animal than being transparent and explaining how watches are made or getting into details about certain models and how he runs his business. For me, it would be a matter of self preservation to tell people, "I vehemently deny what was said, it was a total lie and the rest is up to my lawyer" or something to that effect. We believe him. He doesn't have to convince us or respond to anyone that doesn't believe him. I respect Doc if he feels differently and I understand that everyone deals with accusations in their own way.

Maybe starting a different thread to "defend" himself would have been a better idea. To some customers, having to elbow their way around posts regarding legal matters while trying to find out about upcoming models might be off-putting.


----------



## borology (Jul 6, 2019)

wow


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ticktocker said:


> Everyone reacts differently when it comes to accusations. In my opinion, commenting about personal and business legal matters to strangers on the internet can not only seem unprofessional but never a good thing and can come back to bite you when you least expect it. It's a totally different animal than being transparent and explaining how watches are made or getting into details about certain models and how he runs his business. For me, it would be a matter of self preservation to tell people, "I vehemently deny what was said, it was a total lie and the rest is up to my lawyer" or something to that effect. We believe him. He doesn't have to convince us or respond to anyone that doesn't believe him. I respect Doc if he feels differently and I understand that everyone deals with accusations in their own way.
> 
> Maybe starting a different thread to "defend" himself would have been a better idea. To some customers, having to elbow their way around posts regarding legal matters while trying to find out about upcoming models might be off-putting.


NTH has other outlets for just covering their new watches. What makes this thread interesting is that it's _not_ that. If you stick around here just looking for wrist shots and info about new/upcoming models, you're going to have to wade through Doc's signature WOT responses, arguments about why all bezel inserts other than brushed steel suck, etc. Doc gonna be Doc.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Vanguard question, as I'm starting to seriously entertain the idea of picking one up. How does the shade of blue on the dial compare to previously released NTH models? I imagine it's lighter than the Scorpene and Nazario. Is it comparable to the blue 'cuda, or lighter than that?


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

As an aside to all the recent unpleasantness, I'd just like to share this......



















Love this watch, well done Doc you nailed it for me with this one 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

(Conspiracy theory's coming...)

Before I knew much about watch industry, I only knew this: there are 2 kinds of watches: overrated expensive stuff from Switzerland, and low quality stuff from China. My opinion changed when I got my eyes on the MWC Flinder in 2014. The quality was stunning, well-design dial and case. I dig into the history of the brand, the specification of the watch more and become a fan of the whole "Microbrand watches" in general.

Back into present. The article that is causing a huge discussion lately throughout all watch forums and social media has surely sparked a side debate about microbrand watches in general. I came across lots of comments like this: luckily I didn't buy a microbrand watch; who knows what brand owners have in their closets...By bringing 2 notorious ends of the spectrum and accused them of "allegedly" working together: Ginault with their lack of clarification and shady history, and NTH/Doc with his total openness about his business and watch industry in general, the author ensured that the article will be shared, talked, quoted all across the news. Guys who are like me 5 years ago will probably like: yeah microbrand watches suck, they are all Chinese knock-off...

(Now here's the theory) What if the author is someone working for "the Swiss", with his main goal is to smear the reputation of the smaller watch brands? I don't think smaller brands would take much of the profit from the Swiss, but in the long run this might be the next potential "quartz crisis"?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Nah. Terry's not up to nothin'...
> 
> View attachment 14287641
> 
> ...


He doesn't seem to like the watches, and he's saying that on a forum about watches, I don't see what the issue is. What about his comments do you feel is an attack? And you have a personality that people may have an opinion on. Again you are putting yourself out there in both regards. Which of his comments lead you too think he's doing anything more than discussing a watch/brand and it's ever present owner?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Forever8895 said:


> (Now here's the theory) What if the author is someone working for "the Swiss", with his main goal is to smear the reputation of the smaller watch brands? I don't think smaller brands would take much of the profit from the Swiss, but in the long run this might be the next potential "quartz crisis"?


Seems very unlikely. If Rolex wanted to smash Ginault, they wouldn't hire some blogger, they'd bring a patent suit against them over their clasp. Also, what's more of a threat? A company like NTH that sells a few thousand watches that in a vague sense somewhat resemble some of yours, sold at a vastly lower price point to a completely different customer, or a Chinese replica maker that's stealing your trademark, and stealing your current designs? If I were in charge at Rolex I could care less about a ~$700 NTH that was loosely inspired by something I made 50 years ago, but I would be very concerned about a $1000 "GMT Master-II," especially now that replica makers have figured out how to make their movements look like a 3285, at least on the surface, as opposed to it obviously being some ETA knock-off as soon as you open the case.

Also, Apple shipped 9+ million watches in Q4 of 2018. I'm sure the sales of ALL microbrands put together doesn't come within a mile of that. If anything is the new quartz crisis for the Swiss, it's _that_.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Seems very unlikely. If Rolex wanted to smash Ginault, they wouldn't hire some blogger, they'd bring a patent suit against them over their clasp. Also, what's more of a threat? A company like NTH that sells a few thousand watches that in a vague sense somewhat resemble some of yours, sold at a vastly lower price point to a completely different customer, or a Chinese replica maker that's stealing your trademark, and stealing your current designs? If I were in charge at Rolex I could care less about a ~$700 NTH that was loosely inspired by something I made 50 years ago, but I would be very concerned about a $1000 "GMT Master-II," especially now that replica makers have figured out how to make their movements look like a 3285, at least on the surface, as opposed to it obviously being some ETA knock-off as soon as you open the case.
> 
> Also, Apple shipped 9+ million watches in Q4 of 2018. I'm sure the sales of ALL microbrands put together doesn't come within a mile of that. If anything is the new quartz crisis for the Swiss, it's _that_.


My point is, by making comments about connection of 2 vastly different but successful small brands, it generates the negative vibe against microbrands as a whole. It's not difficult to find such comment "I will never buy a microbrand watch". But you are right with the Apple Watch, I never consider smart watches as "watches"


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> He doesn't seem to like the watches, and he's saying that on a forum about watches, I don't see what the issue is. What about his comments do you feel is an attack? And you have a personality that people may have an opinion on. Again you are putting yourself out there in both regards. Which of his comments lead you too think he's doing anything more than discussing a watch/brand and it's ever present owner?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


This is the same sort of tepid, careful, intentionally obtuse stuff you post over on the Ginault thread. Terry's statements are right there in the post you quoted; if you care to read them as innocent, so be it. But, seriously, it's right there in black and white, so give us all a break (and here's hoping Chris doesn't rise to your bait).

If Terry has no axe to grind, let him stfu about Chris and his business. As someone not in the business, who doesn't like NATO straps, I don't mind saying it: For a guy who makes NATO straps, to knock someone else for being derivative, is a bit rich, no? The first time Terry comes up with something original, maybe then will be the right time for him to knock someone else's hard work, and then to continue casting aspersions on doc, who is a friend around here (whereas, Terry is not).


----------



## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

Forever8895 said:


> (Now here's the theory) What if the author is someone working for "the Swiss", with his main goal is to smear the reputation of the smaller watch brands? I don't think smaller brands would take much of the profit from the Swiss, but in the long run this might be the next potential "quartz crisis"?


Hahahahahaha this is brilliant


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

hwa said:


> This is the same sort of tepid, careful, intentionally obtuse stuff you post over on the Ginault thread. Terry's statements are right there in the post you quoted; if you care to read them as innocent, so be it. But, seriously, it's right there in black and white, so give us all a break (and here's hoping Chris doesn't rise to your bait).
> 
> If Terry has no axe to grind, let him stfu about Chris and his business. As someone not in the business, who doesn't like NATO straps, I don't mind saying it: For a guy who makes NATO straps, to knock someone else for being derivative, is a bit rich, no? The first time Terry comes up with something original, maybe then will be the right time for him to knock someone else's hard work, and then to continue casting aspersions on doc, who is a friend around here (whereas, Terry is not).


It was nothing but a serious question. Yes it's clear Terry doesn't like him. So what? Why rant about it, it doesn't seem personal it just seems like a dude who doesn't like his watches and maybe not vail either. But it doesn't seem like anything more. You are trying to assign a motive to my statement you can't clearly know. My only reason for making it is Terry seems like a good dude and speaks bluntly. Chris seems like a good dude and speaks aggressively. I don't see anything else here. I simply stated what I saw as evident.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Vanguard question, as I'm starting to seriously entertain the idea of picking one up. How does the shade of blue on the dial compare to previously released NTH models? I imagine it's lighter than the Scorpene and Nazario. Is it comparable to the blue 'cuda, or lighter than that?


Intended to be the same as the Nazario and Scorpene Blue.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> He doesn't seem to like the watches, and he's saying that on a forum about watches, I don't see what the issue is. What about his comments do you feel is an attack? And you have a personality that people may have an opinion on. Again you are putting yourself out there in both regards. Which of his comments lead you too think he's doing anything more than discussing a watch/brand and it's ever present owner?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


The totality of them.

He wasn't just talking about watches. What's up with finding issue with my user name, as an example? What did that have to do with anything? Why go out of his way to cheer on this blogger for doxing me?

As I said in my previous post, he's obviously got some sort of axe to grind. If you don't see it, then you don't see it.


----------



## deepcdvr (Dec 31, 2007)

docvail said:


> Nah. Terry's not up to nothin'...
> 
> View attachment 14287641
> 
> ...


Doc,

Appreciate all the work you did putting this together, but although it looks like you and Terry have been low-key poking each other for a while, this appears to me to be standard internet bs and you have both participated in keeping it going. Terry's a hard a$$ for sure and doesn't mince words but it looks like you gave as much as you got? Just one man's opinion.

I've been trolled before and found it best to just ignore the troll. If you thought Terry was bating you, I would think you just wouldn't have responded, but from what I've gathered (of late) is that that's not your style.

No need to answer as I won't be checking back here.. Good luck with the TC issue and with your business. I've owned a couple of your watches and I think you put out a quality product at an attractive price point. Take care,


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> The totality of them.
> 
> He wasn't just talking about watches. What's up with finding issue with my user name, as an example? What did that have to do with anything? Why go out of his way to cheer on this blogger for doxing me?
> 
> As I said in my previous post, he's obviously got some sort of axe to grind. If you don't see it, then you don't see it.


I don't but that's fine you do. My suggestion to you is get better with accepting but the mean and ridiculous and the good criticism. You go out of your way to combat the negative, my resolve would be to ignore it. You get nowhere arguing with people who wish to belittle you. Your company is strong, your fabbase is strong. You won't win everyone I think the attacks to you come when you aggressively attack people who don't like you or your products. Try avoidance.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> It was nothing but a serious question. Yes it's clear Terry doesn't like him. So what? Why rant about it, it doesn't seem personal it just seems like a dude who doesn't like his watches and maybe not vail either. But it doesn't seem like anything more. You are trying to assign a motive to my statement you can't clearly know. My only reason for making it is Terry seems like a good dude and speaks bluntly. Chris seems like a good dude and speaks aggressively. I don't see anything else here. I simply stated what I saw as evident.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


"Why rant about it?"

Uhm...

Let's rewind the tape, shall we?

He's been running his mouth about me, and at me, in every venue I find him, going back six years. In all that time, I never said boo about him. I've engaged with him a handful of times, usually just to call him out on his BS, but even at that, I never insulted him.

I never talked about the guy in public, or his business, at all, until yesterday. He's been making his little snarky remarks to his circle of mean girls for years, and I let it slide. I never said a peep about it until someone brought it up here.

One time - ONCE - someone else brings him up, and what, exactly, did I say? Did I tell everyone "he's a jerk, I can't stand him, don't do business with him" (the sort of things he says about me)?

Nope. None of that.

I said he got banned from WUS - fact, he did. I said I didn't know why - fact, I don't.

I said I had nothing to do with it - fact, I didn't. I said I'd never crosses paths with him prior to his getting banned - fact, I hadn't.

I said I didn't know what his problem with me is - fact, I don't. I said I wish he'd let it go, and guess what? I do.

Which part of that is a rant? I'm not running the guy down. I still haven't said one negative thing about him, or his business, the way he has about me and mine.

See, this is exactly what Terry does. He runs his mouth, then pretends he's not, and if anyone confronts him on it, he gaslights them, just like he did to that guy on the other forum.

Have I been running around multiple forums, trying to run him and his business down? Nope, that's what he's been trying to do with me. Did I call him a clown, or a d-bag? Nope. He's the one doing that $hlt, constantly.

He had an opportunity to clear the air when we were both at the NY GTG last year. Instead, he avoided me. Had I known he was there, I'd have tried to clear the air with him. I don't see the point in carrying on some pointless rivalry, or whatever Terry feels this is.

Mate, you either see it, or you don't.

It's online reputation management. I run an online business. It's my job to know what's being said about me and my business online. If someone is out there constantly disparaging the business, I'm going to see it, eventually. When people come to me, and ask me what I did to piss in Terry's Wheaties, that ain't my imagination.

Whatever his problem with me is, it's his problem, not mine.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Someone, please tell me that Terry’s last name begins with a C!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> The totality of them.
> 
> He wasn't just talking about watches. What's up with finding issue with my user name, as an example? What did that have to do with anything? Why go out of his way to cheer on this blogger for doxing me?
> 
> As I said in my previous post, he's obviously got some sort of axe to grind. If you don't see it, then you don't see it.


Yeah. It's pretty damn clear.

And also, nothing good ever happens on "the other forum". It's like a cesspool. But a cesspool where certain people are allowed to run amok yet a newer user that politely challenges something said gets banned with no explanation. I don't know what it takes to be in the "cool club" there, but even if I did I'll pass.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Awesome.

I ignore this guy for years, largely avoid engaging with him, for years, and the first time I respond to someone else bringing him up, I get cast as the one keeping the antagonism going.

Amazing analysis.

Find me the posts from me running this guy down. I've shown you the posts from him talking about me. Let me know when you see me running around the web talking $hlt about other business owners.

I never set foot in that other forum except to respond to folks talking about me and my business. And every time, I did so politely, without arguing with anyone about anything. I just let the insults and personal attacks slide. Every time, Terry acts like we're cool, and then he goes right back to trash talk.

Even this whole Ginault thing - when I got dragged into that $hlt-show of a thread, I took the high road. I was asked to comment in that thread, way back in the beginning, and all I said was that if the product was good, fairly priced, and they took care of their customers, good luck to them:



docvail said:


> ...I'm not going to comment about this watch, or get into comparisons between it and mine. If people like this watch, and think it's worth the asking price, they should buy it, and I hope they like it. If the product is good and the company backs it up, I wish them nothing but success.





docvail said:


> ...You said it would be interesting to get my take. My take is just as I said. If the product is good, worth the asking price, and backed up by the sellers, I wish them well. Beyond that, no comment.


That was almost 3 years ago. After that, I stayed out of it, no matter what was said about me or my business - even when it was said about me by Ginault - until this past Wednesday, when that blog post dropped.

Say what you want about me, I don't go around stirring $hlt up, making problems for other people. I very rarely respond to the haters and critics. More often than not, when I do, it's when they find me. I'm not going and finding them.

I'm not on Reddit, giddily cheering on an anonymous blogger who doxed another business owner, and suggesting someone clearly innocent might be guilty of something. That's your boy Terry, not me. When I talk about other businesses and their owners, it's to build them up, not tear them down.

It is what it is. I'm happy to let my posts and actions speak for themselves, and let his and others' posts speak for themselves.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

For the record, I was the one who brought up this toxicNATO guy in this thread and remarked that his posts (on other forums and reddit) are very much less than wholesome. To me he seems like a clear example of a 4chan-spawned troll.

If said toxicguy or his clique have problems with me saying that, by all means come at me (feel free to do so via PMs if you have to), don't try and pin the blame on doc. It's lazy. 

That's all I'm gonna say about it here.


----------



## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

It’s sort of hilarious some guy who sells NATO straps lecturing a person with a legitimate watch business. He sounds like douche bag to me. And that logo with a middle finger. Again, hilarious him lecturing others. Delusions of grandeur.


----------



## Ticktocker (Oct 27, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> NTH has other outlets for just covering their new watches. What makes this thread interesting is that it's _not_ that. If you stick around here just looking for wrist shots and info about new/upcoming models, you're going to have to wade through Doc's signature WOT responses, arguments about why all bezel inserts other than brushed steel suck, etc. Doc gonna be Doc.


Yes, I agree and could have written this sentence along with what I posted. These are well known facts but have absolutely nothing to do with my post that you quoted. I guess I am not communicating very well.... or maybe it's just the way things happen on the internet. You say one thing, and it's totally mashed up to fit whatever response someone feels like giving........ A perfect example of what Doc talks about....I get it Doc. I feel for you.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

To turn the conversation back to watches, it's impressive just how different the various NTH subs look from one another, despite sharing the same case. A bezel color/design change can dramatically change how a case shape "reads" to the eye.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ticktocker said:


> Yes, I agree and could have written this sentence along with what I posted. These are well known facts but have absolutely nothing to do with my post that you quoted. I guess I am not communicating very well.... or maybe it's just the way things happen on the internet. You say one thing, and it's totally mashed up to fit whatever response someone feels like giving........ A perfect example of what Doc talks about....I get it Doc. I feel for you.


If I follow all this correctly, my understanding is that you're suggesting:

1. At least I, if not everyone, avoid talk about potential lawsuits.

Yep, I'm good with that. Just to clarify my position here...

Some have suggested I file suit, against the blogger and whoever filed those documents.

I'm not considering any lawsuits at this time. My attorney needs to address the fraudulent business filings. That's where our focus is.

I'll be taking advice from legal counsel, and determining what if any further actions will be taken, as events unfold. If my attorney suggests we need to take additional steps, in order to protect me, my family, and my business, then that's what we'll do.

2. You want us to keep this thread about new model releases.

Uhm...it's 14,000 posts long, going back a few years. New releases don't come along often enough for that to be the only thing discussed here. If you want to keep up with the new releases, there's the email newsletter, our FB business page and fans group, and our Instagram profile.

I can't control what others post in this thread. I'm not going to try to guide it where I want it to go with my own posts. It's an all-topics-open sort of discussion.

Like I said, I'll entertain just about any topic, directly related to my business or not, even related to watches or not. As long as we're not breaking any forum rules, and the forum is willing to put up with us, I'll hang out and tackle topics as they come up.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

My unwanted 2 cents here for Doc --

Just concentrate on the Wyoming filing and correcting it and whatever legal options present, but don't discuss here.

Also, don't discuss d-bags that obviously have an issue with you. You have a solid business to run with a certain reputation. It's not worth engaging with a forum troll that was banned here. I've visited his forum and it's a clique of d-bags all agreeing with each other. Best to steer clear, otherwise you get covered in mud.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Tanjecterly said:


> My unwanted 2 cents here for Doc --
> 
> Just concentrate on the Wyoming filing and correcting it and whatever legal options present, but don't discuss here.
> 
> Also, don't discuss d-bags that obviously have an issue with you. You have a solid business to run with a certain reputation. It's not worth engaging with a forum troll that was banned here. I've visited his forum and it's a clique of d-bags all agreeing with each other. Best to steer clear, otherwise you get covered in mud.


Everyone lecturing Chris about staying off the internet with this topic seems not to understand the importance and value of business goodwill and a good name. He has to publicly respond, at least to the extent that he has, defending his innocence and showing why he he's not guilty of the slanders made against him and his company.

Doc Savage


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

And to watches...


Twehttam said:


> Three can play that game...
> 
> View attachment 14287625


Four can, as well:









Doc Savage


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Gonna wear a watch today.......

this watch.......









Have a good weekend y'all, especially you Doc.

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just sayin'...

I can't stop other people from bringing it up, here, on Facebook, on Reddit, wherever.

I can just ignore the questions or comments, or I can respond.

For the most part, I'm leaving it all alone, especially if it's somewhere other than here, in this thread.

My experience with watch geeks (and influencers) is that they don't always accept being ignored. If you keep bringing something up with me, eventually, it becomes obvious to me you're not picking up the hint that I'm ignoring you, and in that case, I'll stop ignoring you, and respond.

My observation with haters and trolls is that no matter what I do, they'll make something of it. Say nothing, I'm guilty. Say anything, I'm guilty. Heads they win, tails I lose. So, yeah, for the most part, I leave that $hlt alone. Like I said, I don't go around the web looking for fights to get into. 

Most, if not all of my responses are to those who seek me out, or in those discussions I stumble over, or those that have been brought to my attention by others, who think I should respond.

I appreciate all the support. I'll remember all the shots taken by those looking to pile on, and who want to cast me as somehow contributing to the BS, when I'm doing all I can to stay out of it. I'm happy to let the d-bags do what d-bags do, so long as they do it away from me.

If y'all want to stop talking about it, then stop talking about it. Please don't act as if I need a Jiminy Cricket to remind me what to say or not say in response, or in my own defense.

The party just rolls on, folks.


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

Here's Doc and Terry getting along...


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Agent Sands said:


> To turn the conversation back to watches, it's impressive just how different the various NTH subs look from one another, despite sharing the same case. A bezel color/design change can dramatically change how a case shape "reads" to the eye.


Agreed. Pretty interesting how the silver bezel on the commander "shrinks" the dial. 
I'm having a mental crisis regarding possibly buying a tikuna and selling my skipjack to make space. Tikuna dial is just killer


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Agreed. Pretty interesting how the silver bezel on the commander "shrinks" the dial.
> I'm having a mental crisis regarding possibly buying a tikuna and selling my skipjack to make space. Tikuna dial is just killer


Yep. Stainless bezels contrast with the dial more. The bezel blends in with the case. If the bezel is the same color as the dial, it tends to make the dial look bigger.

Unless you count the Scorpènes, I haven't had any sword hands in the collection since I sold my Amphions. I may have to snag one of these Commandos.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Gli,

Terrible crisis, SkipJack, Tikuna.... Tikuna? SkipJack?? I've been lusting over the SkipJack since I found WUS and then NTH. Now.... I seriously want the Tikuna, the look is SO bada$$, though if a Skip came my way......


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Also, apparently Rusty thought he had a 4-day weekend, too, but he ain't a lawyer, and if I'm working, errbuddy working...
> 
> View attachment 14286833


I tend to be a no-date person, but this is one case where I think the with-date model looks better.

Great design. Can't wait for IRL pics.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Intended to be the same as the Nazario and Scorpene Blue.


Re: Vanguard... Also the same sunburst and darker-towards-the-edges effect as Nazario? Thanks.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Tanjecterly said:


> My unwanted 2 cents here for Doc --
> 
> Just concentrate on the Wyoming filing and correcting it and whatever legal options present, but don't discuss here.
> 
> Also, don't discuss d-bags that obviously have an issue with you. You have a solid business to run with a certain reputation. It's not worth engaging with a forum troll that was banned here. I've visited his forum and it's a clique of d-bags all agreeing with each other. Best to steer clear, otherwise you get covered in mud.


Just remember, 'rasslin' with pigs will get both of you covered with pig$hift, but the pig likes it.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Pulling out those maroon-brown tones...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

92gli said:


> Agreed. Pretty interesting how the silver bezel on the commander "shrinks" the dial.
> I'm having a mental crisis regarding possibly buying a tikuna and selling my skipjack to make space. Tikuna dial is just killer


Fair comments. Speak your truth, brother. But just know that comments like this suggesting a used NTH may become available are likely causing other NTH fans (definitely causing at least one NTH fan) to start asking themselves questions.

-Skipjacks are pretty cool, right, why haven't I pursued one?
-Would a Skipjack too directly compete with other watches already in the watch boxes?
-There is half of the day left, any reason not to spend it looking at every Skipjack photo on the entire internet?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Re: Vanguard... Also the same sunburst and darker-towards-the-edges effect as Nazario? Thanks.


Yep. Same as the Nazario and Scorpene Blue.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> And to watches...
> 
> Four can, as well:
> 
> ...


Looks familiar and sounds like 10 apples up on top


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Trying to bring the Thread back to watches.

Contemplating about that tikuna. But one of my others would have to Go. Cant decide...

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Fack the nay sayer's....
Doc has our back, I have his 6. 
Anytime Doc you up in the Toronto area. I have a beer for you Brother.

I'll get in the trenches with you Brother.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## Firecrow911 (Mar 7, 2019)

Keep Calm and NTH On...









Sent from my overpriced data plan.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Speaking of bezel insert optical illusions, the same trick can be played with the bezels themselves. These both have roughly dial-colored inserts. The blue model with the dark bezel looks larger to my eye.

I have to say, the blue dial is quite fetching in person. This is kind of the reverse of the "It's very nice, but is it really worth [some multiple] the price of an NTH Sub?" situation. Here, it's all gravy, except for the size for me.

Seiko, please do (but really please don't!) release mini Turtles with all of the color options of the big Turtles.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

3WR said:


> Fair comments. Speak your truth, brother. But just know that comments like this suggesting a used NTH may become available are likely causing other NTH fans (definitely causing at least one NTH fan) to start asking themselves questions.
> 
> -Skipjacks are pretty cool, right, why haven't I pursued one?
> -Would a Skipjack too directly compete with other watches already in the watch boxes?
> -There is half of the day left, any reason not to spend it looking at every Skipjack photo on the entire internet?


Here's another pic for you :-!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

When I get a blue watch, I consider it an exception to my policy of preferring black. The exceptions are starting to accumulate. And of course, now the Vanguard exists.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Gosh darn you, 92gli.

Ps, what 2-piece strap is that?


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Twehttam said:


> Gosh darn you, 92gli.
> 
> Ps, what 2-piece strap is that?


$7 ebay jawn. Search for "nylon quick release military strap". Seller has a number of different widths and colors. It's kinda thick so it gets caught on the case a little, but whatever...


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Guess you guys are doing other stuff this Saturday night. Took me a hour and 8 pages to get caught up. 

Sword hands are dope!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Forever8895 said:


> My point is, by making comments about connection of 2 vastly different but successful small brands, it generates the negative vibe against microbrands as a whole. It's not difficult to find such comment "I will never buy a microbrand watch". But you are right with the Apple Watch, I never consider smart watches as "watches"


Who does that benefit, though? NTH competes with entry level Swiss stuff like Hamilton, Mido, Glycine, Certina, etc. Nothing in the NTH range is anything like the watches made by those companies, so it seems really baffling that someone at Swatch would be twirling their mustache, coming up with ways to smear NTH, especially when there are companies like Parnis and Alpha that make shameless rip-offs of Submariners, GMT Masters, Luminors, and SMPs. Why not go after _them_?

I really doubt the people that are open to microbrands would be put off of all microbrand companies by this, and the people that say "I'll never buy a microbrand" likely already felt that way. Again, the sales that the Swatch Group is losing to microbrands has to be infinitesimal compared to the sales they are losing to people wearing Apple watches. If I were them I'd be much more focused on marketing showing how much better the real thing is compared to a glorified screen saver on your wrist. I own a Samsung Galaxy watch. It's boring as hell to look at. I wear it for workouts for the fitness tracking, and then I take it off and put it back on the shelf, and put on a real watch.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Speaking of bezel insert optical illusions, the same trick can be played with the bezels themselves. These both have roughly dial-colored inserts. The blue model with the dark bezel looks larger to my eye.
> 
> I have to say, the blue dial is quite fetching in person. This is kind of the reverse of the "It's very nice, but is it really worth [some multiple] the price of an NTH Sub?" situation. Here, it's all gravy, except for the size for me.
> 
> Seiko, please do (but really please don't!) release mini Turtles with all of the color options of the big Turtles.


The new "Shark fin" turtle is cooler still. Instead of just plain aluminum, they used a textured design for the insert that I haven't seen from them before. Also...just so you know, Seiko diver dials are all interchangeable. So if you're in love with the Save The Ocean turtle dial, you could very easily implant it into an SKX007, or SKX013, SKX031, SNZH, etc etc etc. Here's a STO Samurai dial in an SKX, for example.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> The new "Shark fin" turtle is cooler still. Instead of just plain aluminum, they used a textured design for the insert that I haven't seen from them before. Also...just so you know, Seiko diver dials are all interchangeable. So if you're in love with the Save The Ocean turtle dial, you could very easily implant it into an SKX007, or SKX013, SKX031, SNZH, etc etc etc. Here's a STO Samurai dial in an SKX, for example.
> 
> View attachment 14290361


Hot damm that is a great looking mod! I have an STO samurai that hasn't even been worn. It seems crazy to use that dial for a mod, but you have me reconsidering. I mean, I have an STO turtle that I actually wear so. . .

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> The new "Shark fin" turtle is cooler still. Instead of just plain aluminum, they used a textured design for the insert that I haven't seen from them before. Also...just so you know, Seiko diver dials are all interchangeable. So if you're in love with the Save The Ocean turtle dial, you could very easily implant it into an SKX007, or SKX013, SKX031, SNZH, etc etc etc. Here's a STO Samurai dial in an SKX, for example.
> 
> View attachment 14290361


Is that the original bezel insert! It looks kinda chunky SS, very cool. I'm thinking of modding a Samurai with a SS bezel and this one looks great.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Who does that benefit, though? NTH competes with entry level Swiss stuff like Hamilton, Mido, Glycine, Certina, etc. Nothing in the NTH range is anything like the watches made by those companies, so it seems really baffling that someone at Swatch would be twirling their mustache, coming up with ways to smear NTH, especially when there are companies like Parnis and Alpha that make shameless rip-offs of Submariners, GMT Masters, Luminors, and SMPs. Why not go after _them_?
> 
> I really doubt the people that are open to microbrands would be put off of all microbrand companies by this, and the people that say "I'll never buy a microbrand" likely already felt that way. Again, the sales that the Swatch Group is losing to microbrands has to be infinitesimal compared to the sales they are losing to people wearing Apple watches. If I were them I'd be much more focused on marketing showing how much better the real thing is compared to a glorified screen saver on your wrist. I own a Samsung Galaxy watch. It's boring as hell to look at. I wear it for workouts for the fitness tracking, and then I take it off and put it back on the shelf, and put on a real watch.


I don't buy the conspiracy theory this time, only because it was such a complete clusterfuck of a campaign by a lone troglodyte but...all these micro brands with multi thousand sales are taking away 10s of millions of revenue from someone, and eventually they're going to notice.

Quality is becoming less and less of a differentiator because guys like doc have been fine tuning the alternative supply chain so much it's at the same level as the mainstream's...lots of sacred cows being toppled along the way. I would never have guessed 4 years ago that a regulated miyota was going to be enjoying the same reputation as an ETA right now (and better performance, based on my own experience)

Such a great time to be a consumer.










watch addict in recovery


----------



## DocJekl (May 19, 2014)

docvail said:


> Awesome.
> 
> *I ignore this guy for years, largely avoid engaging with him, for years, and the first time I respond to someone else bringing him up, I get cast as the one keeping the antagonism going.
> 
> Amazing analysis.*


Typical pack mentality, and it sucks that you're on the receiving end. There's really no solution except to drop it and let it go away. For someone like you (or me) that's a tough pill to swallow. I would likely have a hard time following my own advice.

I hope everything works out for you in both the TC and Toxic issues.


----------



## DocJekl (May 19, 2014)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Trying to bring the Thread back to watches.
> 
> Contemplating about that tikuna. But one of my others would have to Go. Cant decide...


However, that one is not the right watch to go. I have one and love it.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Red PeeKay said:


> Is that the original bezel insert! It looks kinda chunky SS, very cool. I'm thinking of modding a Samurai with a SS bezel and this one looks great.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


No definitely not, it's an aftermarket bezel insert (likely DLW) made to look like the platinum Rolex Yacht Master insert. It's important to note that while you can stick pretty much any Seiko diver dial into any other Seiko diver case, the same is definitely NOT true for the bezel inserts. If you want to use the stock Samurai bezel, you'd need to use an insert sized for that, and the options there are pretty limited compared to the nearly countless SKX inserts. Alternatively, you can stick a turtle bezel on the Samurai and then use a SS insert with that.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

What the actual continuous kinetic **** happened here while I spent the last few weeks on the countryside drinking beer and eating water melons.









I find the whole Ginault/WUS stuff extremely hypocritical. Talk and mentions of fakes are strictly forbidden. Yet Ginault was allowed to be a sponsor here or being mentioned? I cannot link those websites here but there is plenty info about the connection between TC and Ginault. Pecunia non olet but should it be ever legally confirmed then we know whose a$$ will be wide open should Rolex find interest in this on the biggest watch forum.

Wish you all the best to get this things sorted out Doc!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> The new "Shark fin" turtle is cooler still. Instead of just plain aluminum, they used a textured design for the insert that I haven't seen from them before. Also...just so you know, Seiko diver dials are all interchangeable. So if you're in love with the Save The Ocean turtle dial, you could very easily implant it into an SKX007, or SKX013, SKX031, SNZH, etc etc etc. Here's a STO Samurai dial in an SKX, for example.
> 
> View attachment 14290361


I've not seen a "shark fin" in person. Insert definitely looks nicer with the texture and milled out numbers. A little NTH-esque, which is a pro. From photos/videos, I think my preference for the older gradient dial outweighs my preference for the newer bezel.

I am aware of the swap-ability. Thanks. I've dabbled in mods. Various factors have turned me off of that for awhile. But that example is a compelling reason to reconsider going back down that rabbit hole. I had started to come around to the idea that a lot of the best mods use real Seiko dials and hands. Seems that can get spendy, though.

Having said all of that, thanks for the reminder. Gives me something to think about.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*









'Nuff said. This watch speaks for itself!
Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> I've not seen a "shark fin" in person. Insert definitely looks nicer with the texture and milled out numbers. A little NTH-esque, which is a pro. From photos/videos, I think my preference for the older gradient dial outweighs my preference for the newer bezel.
> 
> I am aware of the swap-ability. Thanks. I've dabbled in mods. Various factors have turned me off of that for awhile. But that example is a compelling reason to reconsider going back down that rabbit hole. I had started to come around to the idea that a lot of the best mods use real Seiko dials and hands. Seems that can get spendy, though.
> 
> Having said all of that, thanks for the reminder. Gives me something to think about.


Most of the time yeah, I think the best mods are Seiko to Seiko. I do quite like the FFF dials, but other than that a lot of the stuff from Yobokies, Dagaz et all is kinda eh. You do definitely have to pay for the privilege of a genuine dial, though. I'm happy I got my SARB059 dial when I did, now they are way more expensive.

Here's my current "SKARB" mod, which I'm about to change yet again, this time into something resembling a cross between the 2018+ Omega SMP, and gen 1 Planet Ocean. The big question now is do I keep the bead blasted SKX case as is, or replace it with a Crystal Times PVD case? It's not an addiction, I can stop whenever I want. Really.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Most of the time yeah, I think the best mods are Seiko to Seiko. I do quite like the FFF dials, but other than that a lot of the stuff from Yobokies, Dagaz et all is kinda eh. You do definitely have to pay for the privilege of a genuine dial, though. I'm happy I got my SARB059 dial when I did, now they are way more expensive.
> 
> Here's my current "SKARB" mod, which I'm about to change yet again, this time into something resembling a cross between the 2018+ Omega SMP, and gen 1 Planet Ocean. The big question now is do I keep the bead blasted SKX case as is, or replace it with a Crystal Times PVD case? It's not an addiction, I can stop whenever I want. Really.
> 
> View attachment 14292089


Nice dial. I paid what I thought was a lot for mine. I boogered the movement and that project has been dormant since.

If you miss the look after you change it up, there is always the black Odin. Somewhat similar vibe.


----------



## DocJekl (May 19, 2014)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Trying to bring the Thread back to watches.
> 
> Contemplating about that tikuna. But one of my others would have to Go. Cant decide...
> 
> ...


Mine - photo this AM.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Happy bluewatchmonday!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Doc, question for you if you're inclined to comment. (Probably a repeat discussion by now.) Was thinking about how customers' first exposure to new models are the renders/3D animations. Which we can combine with past photos and any hands on encounters to help us imagine what the new watches will look like in the metal. 

My question is about how much of that same imagining you guys have to do before green lighting production. I image you could assemble a mockup that would pretty closely resemble the final product. With sample parts, previously used parts that are close, etc. So when the first batch of a new model shows up, how likely are you to be surprised by what you see? Or maybe you'd have seen photos from the factory by that point and would have a good sense of how the watches turned out. 

Thanks.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> If you miss the look after you change it up, there is always the black Odin. Somewhat similar vibe.
> 
> View attachment 14292125


Odin is cool, but I just can't do painted markers. It's gotta be either applied, or sandwich, which is why I've been thinking about adding a Vanguard to the stable. For my SKX re-do, I was inspired by this. Mine will be very similar, just with the current gen SMP ceramic bezel insert instead of a Submariner style, and a flat black rehaut since an indexed chapter ring is unnecessary with the SARB dials.









I've also been thinking about doing an FFF, but an SNZH lagoon mod is also quite sexy. It's hard out there for a watch fiend.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Happy Blue-Monday indeed.......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Odin is cool, but I just can't do painted markers. It's gotta be either applied, or sandwich, which is why I've been thinking about adding a Vanguard to the stable. For my SKX re-do, I was inspired by this. Mine will be very similar, just with the current gen SMP ceramic bezel insert instead of a Submariner style, and a flat black rehaut since an indexed chapter ring is unnecessary with the SARB dials.
> 
> View attachment 14292711
> 
> ...


You really should rethink that whole, "no painted markers" thing. Relumes courtesy of @brightling007









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Doc, question for you if you're inclined to comment. (Probably a repeat discussion by now.) Was thinking about how customers' first exposure to new models are the renders/3D animations. Which we can combine with past photos and any hands on encounters to help us imagine what the new watches will look like in the metal.
> 
> My question is about how much of that same imagining you guys have to do before green lighting production. I image you could assemble a mockup that would pretty closely resemble the final product. With sample parts, previously used parts that are close, etc. So when the first batch of a new model shows up, how likely are you to be surprised by what you see? Or maybe you'd have seen photos from the factory by that point and would have a good sense of how the watches turned out.
> 
> Thanks.


If I understand you right, the basic question is about how accurate our pre-production illustrations are versus post-production reality, and how often we're seeing something we didn't exactly expect.

I'm not 100% certain when exactly we figured this out, but at some point in the last 2 years, we realized that Aaron and Rusty were still illustrating new models using some dimensions (dial and crystal diameter) we'd come up with way back in 2015, before the case was proofed/modified by the case factory's engineers.

We didn't realize the diameter we were using was a little off, which was repeatedly causing problems. Aside from using the "wrong" diameter, we were sending the factory image files in a format they couldn't manipulate - they couldn't scale up or down to the correct size), so they were re-drawing all our designs, and a lot was being changed. But, all of that was happening pre-production, and we were catching most of it. The only surprises it caused were those changes that we'd missed before starting production.

Once we updated our illustrations to the correct dimensions, and started sending files in a format they could work with, those problems have all but disappeared.

I don't like using factory illustrations because they illustrate using a different program, and settings. They tend to exaggerate certain things, like the color of lume. I think our illustrations are more realistic, and closer to what the final product will look like. We'll put a lot more time into making sure things look as close to reality as possible than they will.

There are some lingering causes of differences between illustration and reality.

Rusty's 3D program has more ability to approximate reality, so we've stopped showing Aaron's 2D's. We mostly use Aaron's 2D's now to do design, because he can create and modify his illustrations faster than Rusty can. Even if Aaron's 2D's aren't as close to ultimate reality, they're close enough, and we've done this enough for me to know what will be different.

We're usually green-lighting production with Aaron's 2D's, then having Rusty get to work doing 3D's to show the world. Rusty gets involved in design when we're making a new model, and need to see the case in 3D. Once we're done with design, Rusty's just illustrating.

With Rusty's 3D program, it's not like there's a single setting for lighting, reflection, surface brushing, etc. Every setting seems to have the ability to be calibrated, dialed up or down, so we'll frequently try to tweak something to be closer to what we think reality looks like.

The 3D program doesn't "understand" some things we do. For example, sunburst dial textures. To illustrate those, we have to get Aaron to create the look of it in 2D, then Rusty has to apply that over the dial, like a sticker. There's no way for us to perfectly predict how that will look, especially if you're also doing a color-fade on that dial, as we usually are.

Sometimes we might get a weird effect, like the hands will look closer to or farther away from the dial, or we'll get more or less distortion / reflection off the crystal. In this most recent iteration, we just added the exact depth (thickness) for the hands, whereas before, Rusty was basically guessing how thick they are. How much of a difference would that make? Probably very little, but it goes to show how many details we have to think about.

The main causes of surprises for me are either straight-up mistakes made in production, or something which isn't a mistake, but had to be done out of necessity. An example would be the glossy coating on the Nacken Renegade. I wasn't expecting that, and it really changes the way the watch looks. I was told it was necessary to protect the dial's brushed texture and color fade. But it wasn't discussed before I got the watches in hand.

There are a very small number of things in our 3D illustrations which aren't 100% the same as reality. Your eye might detect them, and your brain register them as subtly different, but you'd have to spend a lot of time comparing the pics to reality to figure out what they are. They're all very small things - mostly very small differences in dimensions for very small details.

They're often the result of the differences between engineering drawings and finished parts, where the machining and finishing can have some small effect on parts' dimensions. For example, in 3D, you can make end-links and lugs precisely 20mm wide, and they'll fit together perfectly. In reality, that's impossible, because of friction.

There's also an effect where there are things you can detect in the 3D, which are much harder to detect in reality, or just look/feel different, because of how your eye and mind perceive a real-world, three-dimensional object, as compared to a two-dimensional illustration of a 3D object, rendered in a manufactured, virtual environment.

Since we're rarely asking anyone to pre-order from a 3D illustration (only doing that with the store-exclusive models), and we let customers return anything they don't like on delivery, I don't see any need to change what we're doing. The 3D illustrations are very good, and give us more control over the look of the product pages on our website.

There are tons of real world pics available on the web for most models, and I try to post real-world pics of new models before we start sales of them. We don't get many complaints about things looking different than someone expects. When we do, and I swear this is true, it's more often that they're comparing to real-world pics they've seen online than to our 3D's.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RE - applied versus printed indices...

Personally, I used to think that applied were "better", because, why wouldn't they be? They were, at least in my mind, one of the marks of a more "upscale timepiece", or whatever.

Now, meh, I'm pretty ambivalent about them, when it comes to the watches I personally enjoy, and from the perspective of the manufacturer, I'm also fairly ambivalent, but perhaps prefer printed indices, all other things being equal.

When we design, we're just thinking about what looks right. Look at the Tikuna - that wouldn't look right with applied indices. The Santa Cruz kind of needed them, on that quilted dial. Some other models, I guess we could go either way, but in most cases, I think we went the best way, all things considered. I don't think there are any Subs versions which would have looked much better had we gone the other way.

With printed dials, the chance of a one-off screw up in manufacturing is much lower. If something's wrong, it'll be wrong on all of them. But with applied indices, you could always get one that's just a little cockeyed. That's 12 chances per dial, times however many dials you're making. Do the math, it's inevitable you're going to find some that aren't quite 100% perfect.

Plus, with printed dials, we don't have to think about things like hands clearance. With applied markers, we have to make sure the hour hand clears okay. It can affect our choice of handset. 

The gilt-relief dials don't have applied indices. I think they're the nicest dials we've ever made, and people are ready to kill a pygmy to get one, it seems. 

Go figure.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

You guys want to see how you REALLY troll Docvail?

THIS is how you troll Docvail...










Boom. Nailed it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> You really should rethink that whole, "no painted markers" thing. Relumes courtesy of @brightling007
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The very first iteration of my SKX mod had painted markers, it was a Proplof homage. Got bored with it rather quickly, same with my other watches that I've had with painted markers. I just don't find flat dials to be visually interesting.

Contrast any of those with even something as simple as a Marloe Cherwell, and you can see what I'm talking about. This is a watch you want to actually look at, other than to just check the time.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> You guys want to see how you REALLY troll Docvail?
> 
> THIS is how you troll Docvail...
> 
> ...


Just keep posting pics like that, and you'll be sleeping on DC's mean streets instead of a comfortable bed...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

One of those days...

Had two customers contact us for support today. Weird how sometimes that happens, and it's like a tale of two cities.

Guy #1 was emailing to report at least the second problem with one watch, while we're already working to fix at least the second or third problem with a different watch. You'd think he'd be exasperated with us - we're working to fix two watches for him, both of which are on their second, if not third problem/repair. 

But, he was completely cool about it, in fact, almost apologetic towards us, as if he was troubling us. It's no trouble, and he needn't have feared I'd suspect he was abusing the watches. I don't fear that, because I know he's not. It's just one of those things. Every so often, one guy will just get really unlucky, and currently it's his turn to be that guy. We'll sort it all out, as quickly as we can, and I know he'll be patient with us while we do exactly that.

Guy #2 was the complete opposite. He emailed us (on Sunday) demanding we react swiftly to the fact that some shipment wasn't received. We responded (today) to say that tracking says it was in fact delivered, on Saturday. Apparently that didn't sit well, because it set off a string of increasingly demanding emails, to include the threat of a PayPal dispute. 

We did our best to explain that, in this situation, there isn't a whole lot we can do to resolve the issue, but there is a good bit which can be done at the point of delivery (as in, check around for the package). Ultimately, all we can do is file a lost package claim, but we're required to wait 20 calendar days. I'm not going to canvas someone's neighborhood for them, or call their local postmaster. C'mon. If he'd put half the effort into looking around that he put into pissing in my ear about it, he might have found the package by lunch.

In the first case, it would be completely reasonable for someone, anyone, to say we completely failed to deliver, and yet the guy was ecstatic at the support he received - he praised us for the support he was getting. In the second, we did nothing at all wrong, did all we could to help, and yet the guy was all over us, as if we created the problem, and were refusing to help resolve it. He couldn't resist getting in a parting shot, even after I pointed out how out of line he was, from beginning to end.

A lot of life is just about your attitude and perspective. Sometimes people don't realize it when they're actually getting really good service. Gotta be able to take emotion out of it, and see the situation for what it is. No amount of money changing hands justifies beating people up if no mistake was made, and even if one was, give someone the opportunity to make it right, and credit when they do.

---

Talked to my lawyer today. Awesome guy. Great "bedside manner" for an attorney. I feel better already, knowing he's on this fraudulent business filing thing. We're drafting a public statement to post to the website, which will be my final word on the subject.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> hwa said:
> 
> 
> > You really should rethink that whole, "no painted markers" thing. Relumes courtesy of @brightling007
> ...


I like the play with depth that comes from a watch with applied indices, but it's not a look that works on every watch.

I remember when we were having discussions about the design of the Commander that Doc suggested that the group consider applied indices. I think the watch wouldn't have been as appealing with them.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Regarding applied versus printed indices, I'm fond of both in the proper context. On a diver, I particularly think they work well, especially when lume is at stake. I don't have on Odin, but I do have an homage to it, and it's my favorite dial...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> Regarding applied versus printed indices, I'm fond of both in the proper context. On a diver, I particularly think they work well, especially when lume is at stake. I don't have on Odin, but I do have an homage to it, and it's my favorite dial...
> 
> View attachment 14294327












Yep, printed! Noticing that you kept that beauty over the 2220.80 you had, which was applied IIRC.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Yep, printed! Noticing that you kept that beauty over the 2220.80 you had, which was applied IIRC.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Not even going to point out how short the hands are...

Oops.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

hwa said:


> Yep, printed! Noticing that you kept that beauty over the 2220.80 you had, which was applied IIRC.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You nailed it. Sold the 2220.80, but kept this one and the GMT, both with printed indices. I'm trying not to hoard.









Oh, and almost forgot to add, that new Amphion Commando is going to fit right in with these. For a quarter of the cost...


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Not even going to point out how short the hands are...
> 
> Oops.


Dammit! Can't unsee...

I'll be going through the watch boxes tonight, arranging by length...

Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Dammit! Can't unsee...
> 
> I'll be going through the watch boxes tonight, arranging by length...
> 
> Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


How ELSE would someone arrange their collections?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> How ELSE would someone arrange their collections?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


No lie, I'm totally OCD. I got all the Subs in one row, but the Näckens are with Näckens, Scorpène with Scorpène, and Barracuda with Barracuda. All the Snowflakes are together (Näckens, then Barracudas).

Other rows - Seikos together, DevilRays together, Tropics together, etc.

I should probably arrange them alphabetically, by color...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> No lie, I'm totally OCD. I got all the Subs in one row, but the Näckens are with Näckens, Scorpène with Scorpène, and Barracuda with Barracuda. All the Snowflakes are together (Näckens, then Barracudas).
> 
> Other rows - Seikos together, DevilRays together, Tropics together, etc.
> 
> ...


In any bunch of normal people, I'd probably be considered OCD. In WUS, I'm careless and disorganized. When I change one watch for another, I just put the one I'm removing into the hole from which the next one came.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> Odin is cool, but I just can't do painted markers. It's gotta be either applied, or sandwich, which is why I've been thinking about adding a Vanguard to the stable. For my SKX re-do, I was inspired by this. Mine will be very similar, just with the current gen SMP ceramic bezel insert instead of a Submariner style, and a flat black rehaut since an indexed chapter ring is unnecessary with the SARB dials.
> 
> View attachment 14292711


Sorry to be that guy who quotes a bunch of pictures, but what is this watch? I assume it's a mod...where did you get it or did you make it yourself? It's very cool.

Edit: well I guess the pictures don't stay attached. It's the black Seiko with the Commander 300-esque hands.

Edit 2: now the picture is showing. Weird. Maybe I better stop editing this post before I break something.


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

docvail said:


> ---
> 
> Talked to my lawyer today. Awesome guy. Great "bedside manner" for an attorney. I feel better already, knowing he's on this fraudulent business filing thing. We're drafting a public statement to post to the website, which will be my final word on the subject.


looking forward to it...just because i have no idea whats going on and dont want to ask


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

dmjonez said:


> You nailed it. Sold the 2220.80, but kept this one and the GMT, both with printed indices. I'm trying not to hoard.
> 
> View attachment 14294445
> 
> ...


Can I join the party?










....and because this is an NTH thread, not an omega one:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

KiwiWomble said:


> looking forward to it...just because i have no idea whats going on and dont want to ask


You missed the last 5 days, it seems.

Short version - an anonymous blogger, in the process of taking down Ginault, by tying that brand to the production of fake Rolexes, also doxed me, by publicly posting an obviously fraudulent business filing, which had my name forged on it, but also included residential (and unredacted) addresses for me. He posted links to his blog all over the web (and asked others to repost it), and went out of his way to say I was partners with someone involved in criminal activity (I'm not).

Hilarity did not ensue. The opposite of that ensued. It was a complete and utter $hlt-show.

There. Now you're all caught up.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> In any bunch of normal people, I'd probably be considered OCD. In WUS, I'm careless and disorganized. When I change one watch for another, I just put the one I'm removing into the hole from which the next one came.
> 
> View attachment 14294525


Having some difficulty deciding which is worse, this picture or the picture that Rusty just posted.


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

docvail said:


> You missed the last 5 days, it seems.
> 
> Short version - an anonymous blogger, in the process of taking down Ginault, by tying that brand to the production of fake Rolexes, also doxed me, by publicly posting an obviously fraudulent business filing, which had my name forged on it, but also included residential (and unredacted) addresses for me. He posted links to his blog all over the web (and asked others to repost it), and went out of his way to say I was partners with someone involved in criminal activity (I'm not).
> 
> ...


............good luck!


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> No lie, I'm totally OCD. I got all the Subs in one row, but the Näckens are with Näckens, Scorpène with Scorpène, and Barracuda with Barracuda. All the Snowflakes are together (Näckens, then Barracudas).
> 
> Other rows - Seikos together, DevilRays together, Tropics together, etc.
> 
> ...


Mine are arranged by type and brand...

And metallurgy...

And drive mechanism...

And colour..

Yikes! Watch Insanity Symptoms!

Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> How ELSE would someone arrange their collections?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


lug size, type of watch, diameter,brand. In that order.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Odin is cool, but I just can't do painted markers. It's gotta be either applied, or sandwich, which is why I've been thinking about adding a Vanguard to the stable. For my SKX re-do, I was inspired by this. Mine will be very similar, just with the current gen SMP ceramic bezel insert instead of a Submariner style, and a flat black rehaut since an indexed chapter ring is unnecessary with the SARB dials.
> 
> View attachment 14292711
> 
> ...


You're reminding me why I started avoiding the mods thread. Too many options to keep straight. Plus those damn seconds hands will pi$$ you right off!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


>


What's up with Jester? I've seen that a few times. Google skills not sharp enough to find its back story.

Thanks.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> What's up with Jester? I've seen that a few times. Google skills not sharp enough to find its back story.
> 
> Thanks.


Just a watch I put together. Seemed a fitting, satiric name for an homage to a Rolex Explorer I. Thus, Jester Vagabond. Just having some fun.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Not even going to point out how short the hands are...
> 
> Oops.


It's not the pen, it's the penmanship. The 2531 kicks ass, and skeletons make it sing.

As I've explained...









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> If I understand you right, the basic question is about how accurate our pre-production illustrations are versus post-production reality, and how often we're seeing something we didn't exactly expect.
> 
> ...


Entertaining read. Thanks.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> How ELSE would someone arrange their collections?


By crown girth, of course.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> By crown girth, of course.


By purchase price?

By resale value?

By Pantone number, ascending?

By Pantone number, descending?

By the number of WUS posts related to each, ascending?

By the number of WUS posts related to each, descending?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Firecrow911 (Mar 7, 2019)

docvail said:


> In the first case, it would be completely reasonable for someone, anyone, to say we completely failed to deliver, and yet the guy was ecstatic at the support he received - he praised us for the support he was getting. In the second, we did nothing at all wrong, did all we could to help, and yet the guy was all over us, as if we created the problem, and were refusing to help resolve it. He couldn't resist getting in a parting shot, even after I pointed out how out of line he was, from beginning to end.


I've been in the service industry for most of my life (spanning many different domains) and what I have found in common with them all when either dealing with stakeholders or customers, is you're only as good as your last call. I've just accepted that some people are inherently unreasonable or disagreeable. I just do my best and don't let fools live in my head rent free.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Thought Bahia watch head looked cool on this box. Tried to get a strap that was a similar color. Meh.















Red is too much. Liking gray elastic strap so far.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Just a watch I put together. Seemed a fitting, satiric name for an homage to a Rolex Explorer I. Thus, Jester Vagabond. Just having some fun.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You chose the text on the dial? That's impressively custom.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> You chose the text on the dial? That's impressively custom.


Thanks, I appreciate it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> You chose the text on the dial? That's impressively custom.


Please don't encourage him.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> You really should rethink that whole, "no painted markers" thing. Relumes courtesy of @brightling007
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What make are the watches with the mountain on the dial? I've not seen these before. Interesting.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

Been wanting a sub for a good three years at this point, but could never decide on a model. Finally ordered this one a year ago, and received it last week (long story), and its yet to leave my wrist. Doc, you've left me smiling and satisfied.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Firecrow911 said:


> I've been in the service industry for most of my life (spanning many different domains) and what I have found in common with them all when either dealing with stakeholders or customers, is you're only as good as your last call. I've just accepted that some people are inherently unreasonable or disagreeable. I just do my best and don't let fools live in my head rent free.


I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen anyone get abusive towards another person working in a service capacity, while standing or sitting in front of them, and where others can see them acting like an a$$.

But, with email and private messages, it seems a lot of folks feel emboldened to abuse others, because no one is watching. I can't count how many times I've been astounded at the obnoxious emails or text messages someone has sent us.

It's amazing to me that anyone would think that's how you get good service/support. It pretty much guarantees we do the bare minimum to resolve someone's issue.

I'm sure it also explains all the keyboard kommandos on forums and social media. No one talks to people in real life the way so many people talk to each other on the web.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Red PeeKay said:


> What make are the watches with the mountain on the dial? I've not seen these before. Interesting.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


They are my own customs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteagus said:


> Doc, you've left me smiling and satisfied.


That's what she said...

Boom!

Too easy.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> By crown girth, of course.


Sigh.. back to the watch boxes..

Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Toonces said:


> Sorry to be that guy who quotes a bunch of pictures, but what is this watch? I assume it's a mod...where did you get it or did you make it yourself? It's very cool.
> 
> Edit: well I guess the pictures don't stay attached. It's the black Seiko with the Commander 300-esque hands.
> 
> Edit 2: now the picture is showing. Weird. Maybe I better stop editing this post before I break something.


It's not mine, and yes, it's a mod. I posted mine a few pages earlier on my wrist next to my SDGC017. My watch has the deep forest green SARB059 dial, that mod pictured used the black SARB061 dial. Hands in both that one and mine are/will be Dagaz Planet Ocean style. They use a Dagaz numbered chapter ring, mine uses a black steel Seikostain ring. That insert is a ceramic Sub, mine is a SMP style. I made somewhat of a mockup of what the final product will be like. I'm certainly not Rusty, so it's a photoshop hackjob, but it's close enough. Hands are SARB hands on the mockup because I didn't want to bother trying to change those. I also opted for a black pearl Seikostain coin edge bezel on mine, because I like the look of the SARB061, and wanted to replicate that but with a ceramic insert.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

One of the best SKX mods I've seen is from this IG handle called stph_dxtr based out of Indonesia.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I read through some of your news release and you mentioned that the case design is based of the 6536.. then I look at the 6536... then I look at that price. Holy .... I jaw dropped.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Thanks, I appreciate it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





docvail said:


> Please don't encourage him.


The next one really needs to be the Jester Vanguard. For reasons. Humor mostly.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> How ELSE would someone arrange their collections?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Troo story...

Thirty summat years ago, a mate's girlfriend, now wife (and I hasten to add a wonderful lady and a pal) showed me her book collection. Not to make a point, but on the off chance I might see summat I'd like to read. Was staying the weekend and I'd finished me book. Hence an emergency, as the bookish amongst us will understand all too well.

Mixture of literature and art books all arranged... erm, arranged, erm... I see a pattern but definitely not the jumble of chaos of *my* book shelf that looks like a train wreck. Not the obvious arrangement that and book collection should have if or when I could be arsed.

So I looked and looked. Nah, couldn't figure it out. Grabbed a book and moved on.

Later, at dinner (a few glasses of wine in) I remembered the mystery and asked her how she arranged her books. What followed was the discontinuity between the science stream of thinking versus the arts/humanities stream.

She: "Guess", quoth she.

Moi: "Did that, got nowhere", quoth I.

She: "It's obvious, try to think like an artist".

Moi: "Another glass of wine and I'm Vincent and Picasso on crack, but can't see it".

She: "That's the right track, what would Van Gogh have done?"

So I looked and looked and looked. I tried alphabet, genre, book size, paper versus hard back, gender of author. Oh, font size of title. Didn't know the bloody birth signs of the authors, or publishing houses, or I'd have tried that.

Hang on...

So I tried the name of the publishing houses, then saw a surprising number of art books with birth sign names... could it be?

But no. Bollocks.

Quite a lot of wine had flowed by then.

"Ok, lemme off the hook".

"Look again, what was Vincent famous for?"

"Erm, Starry Nights, Sunflowers, chopping his ear off, oh I don't know. Poverty, posthumous collectability, the colour wheel..."

She looked at me knowingly...

"Oh no, you didn't, no way".

I looked at it again, and there it was in its full (non-science stream) splendour...

She'd arranged them by colour. And indeed by complimentary colour as in the colour wheel. The whole soddin' book case was a colour wheel.

Yer think yer an OCD? A nerd? Speak Klingon? Eat yer heart out 'cos yer arty type's got yer beat hands down.

Ric, innit.


----------



## Firecrow911 (Mar 7, 2019)

Ric Capucho said:


> I looked at it again, and there it was in its full (non-science stream) splendour...
> She'd arranged them by colour. And indeed by complimentary colour as in the colour wheel. The whole soddin' book case was a colour wheel.
> Yer think yer an OCD? A nerd? Speak Klingon? Eat yer heart out 'cos yer arty type's got yer beat hands down.


That's just evidence of the truth to the old adage "there is a fine line between genius and madness"

Your sock drawer would probably keep her busy for at least a couple of hours.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmjonez said:


> The next one really needs to be the Jester Vanguard. For reasons. Humor mostly.


Can probably arrange that. What shade of blue would you like?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Firecrow911 said:


> That's just evidence of the truth to the old adage "there is a fine line between genius and madness"
> 
> Your sock drawer would probably keep her busy for at least a couple of hours.


Nah, socks are easy:

Cold weather on left, warm weather in middle, dress on right.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

hwa said:


> Nah, socks are easy:
> 
> Cold weather on left, warm weather in middle, dress on right.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


What? You've got three pair of socks? Luxury I say! You be all posh then!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> I read through some of your news release and you mentioned that the case design is based of the 6536.. then I look at the 6536... then I look at that price. Holy .... I jaw dropped.


Loosely based on the 6536, the original "big crown" / "Bond" sub. The case lines actually have more in common with the earlier versions, like the small-crown 6204/5.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

hwa said:


> Nah, socks are easy:
> 
> Cold weather on left, warm weather in middle, dress on right.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Typically no socks between mid-April to mid-October. Blues/Greens in right hand drawer, Blacks/Browns left hand drawer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> Troo story...Ric, innit.


You had me at "bollocks."


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

.









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Firecrow911 said:


> That's just evidence of the truth to the old adage "there is a fine line between genius and madness"
> 
> Your sock drawer would probably keep her busy for at least a couple of hours.


Top drawer - thermal socks for shoveling snow, tube socks (not even sure why I own those, maybe for lighter snow days), and "laundry-day" white ankle socks (old socks I only wear when all my other socks are in the laundry), plus ear plugs, and a tiny pair of keys which go to some luggage lock or case, no idea which.

Middle drawer - current-rotation white ankle socks.

Bottom drawer - dress socks, arranged by color - blue-khaki-gray-black.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

My watches: well, I only have 4 at the moment and they live in a catch-all cigar box, bedside, no particular order.

Socks: Live mixed up in a bin on top of some closet shelving clothes organizer. They are doubled over in matching pairs, not loose singles because I am not _that _much of a barbarian...


----------



## Firecrow911 (Mar 7, 2019)

docvail said:


> Top drawer - thermal socks for shoveling snow, tube socks (not even sure why I own those, maybe for lighter snow days), and "laundry-day" white ankle socks (old socks I only wear when all my other socks are in the laundry), plus ear plugs, and a tiny pair of keys which go to some luggage lock or case, no idea which.
> 
> Middle drawer - current-rotation white ankle socks.
> 
> Bottom drawer - dress socks, arranged by color - blue-khaki-gray-black.


I thought for sure you'd layer them and put the white ones below, the black on the white and the colored ones on top of the black layer...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Get real........


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Ragl said:


> Get real........
> 
> View attachment 14295957


Some poor organizational freak somewhere just blew a gasket...

Apparently, organizing books by color is not uncommon.









However, as someone who works in publishing, it makes me want to do violence. Socks are one thing, books are a whole other thing...


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

sock drawer;

left hand side, socks w/ holes in toes

middle, socks w/ holes in heel

right, socks w holes in toes & heel 

front, unmatched 'orphans' from pairs separated at the laudromat 

clean, matched pairs, unopened packages, never to be worn unless for presidential pardon


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

.









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> ... tube socks (not even sure why I own those, maybe for lighter snow days)...


There's only one reason to own tube socks.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hello gents -

About this whole Ginault thing... we pow-wow'd with my lawyer, and have now issued our official statement - https://nthwatches.com/blogs/news/truth-and-transparency-addressing-false-claims-about-me-and-nth

That blog post will (hopefully) serve as our official (and last) public statement about the whole sordid mess.

I sincerely appreciate all the support from everyone who's expressed it (or just felt it). I would also appreciate everyone's understanding that I'd rather not extend the discussion about it any further beyond this point. I don't know what else there is to say.

I don't plan to go all over, on this forum, Reddit, or anywhere/everywhere else, posting links to our blog. If any of you feel like posting links as a response to those discussions you see still happening, if you think it'll do any good, be my guest.

I have no idea how long it will take for my attorney to get my name removed from those business filings, or to get them voided. If and when that happens, if there's any sort of document we can point to and say, "See? I had nothing to do with this, and here's proof" I'll be surprised.

My attorney's suggested I ready myself for a great big pile of nothing as an end-state. No statement from WY or anything remotely resembling a certificate of exoneration. The more likely outcome is that the fake biz docs will be edited, if not completely voided, maybe with some notation that the reason they were voided was that they were fraudulent, but nothing explicitly stating I never had anything to do with them in the first place. It'll be up to reasonable people to see the truth in that outcome.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Get real........
> 
> View attachment 14295957


You animal...


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Hmm this is funny to me.

They are socks. I am just happy to have a matching pair in the morning. I just ball em up and throw em into my drawer. Dress socks, ankle, sports socks, punchy socks.. Hell I even have like 5 pair of Christmas socks all rolling around together.

Sometimes socks just want to mingle without any rules. #freesocks #givesoxlibertyordeath #whyseesocksinwhiteorblack










Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Agent Sands said:


> I like the play with depth that comes from a watch with applied indices, but it's not a look that works on every watch.


Exactly. One of the worst examples out there is the Tudor BB Bronze. From the picture it already looks horrible. I handled it personally and it is ridiculous.

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > I like the play with depth that comes from a watch with applied indices, but it's not a look that works on every watch.
> ...


Yeah, I'm not a fan of that one. (I don't care for most contemporary Tudor pieces in general, but that's for more reasons than just applied markers.)


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

Hey Doc

nice final statement on your site.. hopefully this blip will quickly pass by..

huge hassle for you when youre working to design, produce and ship great watches..

at the end of the day take pleasure in the fact that NTH is making incredibly good looking, high quality watches that have more demand than supply... that cant be diminished by some idiot(s) in this internet ( read: anonymous anti social uncivil behavior ) age

only problem for me is: my wish list cant keep up with the NTH models I want... LOVE !! my BVB , want a Nacken modern blue..
and a Ghost,, and Nazario ...and a Skipjack.. and the 3 new models are all great


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> Loosely based on the 6536, the original "big crown" / "Bond" sub. The case lines actually have more in common with the earlier versions, like the small-crown 6204/5.


I can see some ref in 6536, 6204 and 6538. These are all OGs! Wearing an NTH with a nod to that era is truly a feat! Thank you for this.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkLH said:


> Hey Doc
> 
> nice final statement on your site.. hopefully this blip will quickly pass by..
> 
> ...


Cheers mate.

I ended up talking to the guys on the Hour Time Podcast today, and it came up. I forget what was said that made me realize it, and I know a lot of people won't believe this, but it's true - I was actually completely calm when I saw the blog post.

I was still playing catch-up from my trip to England when that blog post dropped. I was buried in work. Maybe I'm just used to insane $hlt getting thrown at me from out of nowhere, often when I'm at my busiest. Whatever the explanation, I'm just not one to freak out when it looks like the wheels are coming off.

The most frustrating thing about the whole mess was the arguing with all the idiots online. That's what got me wound up. Not the fact that I'd been doxed and smeared, but having to defend my reaction to being doxed and smeared to guys acting like I was out of line.

As soon as I stopped reading the running ongoing commentary (after about 24 hours), and stopped responding to the idiots, it stopped feeling like it was worth thinking about, and the course became clear.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Nacken Modern Black on a Watch Gecko beads of rice bracelet (because I missed out on the recent flash sale of NTH BoR).


















Doc Savage


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Nacken Modern Black on a Watch Gecko beads of rice bracelet (because I missed out on the recent flash sale of NTH BoR).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


End-links look like a pretty good match for the lugs in those pics.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> Cheers mate.
> 
> I ended up talking to the guys on the Hour Time Podcast today, and it came up. I forget what was said that made me realize it, and I know a lot of people won't believe this, but it's true - I was actually completely calm when I saw the blog post.
> 
> ...


Glad that you posted a final statement on the whole thing.. the thing about on-line social media and whatnots you cannot stop people from talking... it just how social media runs. sometimes it's just not worth it. so what you did in the end is probably the best thing to do.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

wow looks pretty sweet on the gecko bor.. the difference with the NTH one is that the end link on doc's extend further while gecko one is shorter.. the beads on the gecko's is slightly flatter than the NTH..


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> End-links look like a pretty good match for the lugs in those pics.


They really are.

Like Cheap Trick said: "She's Tight."

Doc Savage


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Nacken Modern Black on a Watch Gecko beads of rice bracelet (because I missed out on the recent flash sale of NTH BoR).


Very nice. Basically might as well be stock, they don't seem aftermarket at all.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Nacken Modern Black on a Watch Gecko beads of rice bracelet (because I missed out on the recent flash sale of NTH BoR).


Very nice. Basically might as well be stock, they don't seem aftermarket at all.


----------



## Earl Grey (Aug 17, 2013)

docvail said:


> Only because I enjoy your tea...
> 
> View attachment 14287525


Thanks, Doc. You can hate me for saying this (and stop drink my tea), but since the date window is replacing a (basically white) index, why not color match what it is replacing?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Earl Grey said:


> Thanks, Doc. You can hate me for saying this (and stop drink my tea), but since the date window is replacing a (basically white) index, why not color match what it is replacing?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


THIS. I always wondered why those super hot GS dials with the fanciest patterns have a simple white date background. Same goes for some champagne dial Patek P. models I have seen. Its utter horror for my OCD.

One of the reasons I stick to no-date whenever possible.


----------



## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Make it your own...


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Earl Grey said:


> Thanks, Doc. You can hate me for saying this (and stop drink my tea), but since the date window is replacing a (basically white) index, why not color match what it is replacing?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Probably because the white date wheel would not look right with that color of lume. Looks fine on the Nacken or Santa Cruz but I'm not sure it would look good on that one.


----------



## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Oh dear Chris...

Fuč 'em ! Not fully aware of the situation, but if a lawyer is involved, ain't good.

Brother G support for realz.

Tu tu !

Camilo.



docvail said:


> Hello gents -
> 
> About this whole Ginault thing... we pow-wow'd with my lawyer, and have now issued our official statement - https://nthwatches.com/blogs/news/truth-and-transparency-addressing-false-claims-about-me-and-nth
> 
> ...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Nacken Modern Black on a Watch Gecko beads of rice bracelet (because I missed out on the recent flash sale of NTH BoR).
> 
> Doc Savage


Link to this exact one from their site please. I see a few different options for BOR


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Earl Grey said:


> Thanks, Doc. You can hate me for saying this (and stop drink my tea), but since the date window is replacing a (basically white) index, why not color match what it is replacing?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Basically white isn't white.

But, more often than not, black is black.

The lume is natural. It's not white. I think the black date wheel looks better in this instance. I tried arguing with myself about it, but I lost.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

My odd-man-out position on date windows is that, 9 times out of 10--even when dealing with white-dial watches--black date wheels look better.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Did someone here find that there are SOLID end-links for BOR bracelets which fit the Subs?

Just to be clear, I don't want to buy the bracelet. I'm just asking if there's a store like Watch Gecko or Strap Code which sells JUST the end-links, which are SOLID, for a BOR bracelet, but the links fit the Subs (even if the fit isn't perfect)?

Apparently Dan is finding that the end-links on the BOR's we have (the ones that DON'T fit the Subs) are buggers to grind down. We're now looking for a local metal shop or gunsmith with a turret mill, and who might be willing to take on the job.

But, if we can't get the links ground down, then I was thinking if someone is selling just the end-links, maybe they'll fit. That might even be the most expedient solution.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> My odd-man-out position on date windows is that, 9 times out of 10--even when dealing with white-dial watches--black date wheels look better.


That's crazy-talk.

Not crazy... I've done the white-date-wheel-in-place-of-sort-of-white-lume-markers-on-a-dark-colored-dial thing, and it's never looked entirely right to me. I think the best we've gotten it is the white wheel with window at 6 on the Nacken Moderns and Renegade.

We made the Barracuda Brown as a no-date only model, because I didn't think there was any way to add a date window and have it look right, with a white wheel under a brown dial, with C3 (not pure white) lumed markers (with gold trim).

But guys want a date window, so we made the first batch of Barracuda Blue with an optional date window, at 6, and a white date wheel. I hated how that looked. It sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

Every way we've tried to incorporate a white date wheel under a dial that isn't white, and doesn't have white lume, I think the results are less than ideal. While I haven't had the time or motivation to tear into the data, I wouldn't be surprised if the no-date versions sell better when the alternative is a less-than-perfect date treatment.

On the other hand, a black date wheel under a black date wheel usually looks better. And, if you look at the black wheel under the full-lume (C3, so not really pure white) dial of the Nacken Vintage White, with black markers, I think even that looks better than it would if we'd used a white date wheel there.

The date window thing is a persistent challenge. Not only is it a challenge to figure out where to put it, what color wheel looks better, what shape and size to make the window, and what if any sort of border treatment to give it, we've also gone so far as to shorten the minute markers in order to avoid the date window cutting any of those off, or lengthen them, to make the window less conspicuous.

I was looking at a new design someone recently revealed, which I think is really well done overall. But while it's obvious they put some thought into the date window placement and shape, its location just makes it the first thing my eye is drawn to, and distracts from how good the design is otherwise. I understand why they put it where they did, and putting it where I think it would look perfect would require re-printing the date wheel (which I hate to do), but it's just an eyesore as it is, which is a shame.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> That's crazy-talk.
> 
> Not crazy... I've done the white-date-wheel-in-place-of-sort-of-white-lume-markers-on-a-dark-colored-dial thing, and it's never looked entirely right to me. I think the best we've gotten it is the white wheel with window at 6 on the Nacken Moderns and Renegade.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think a white date wheel on the dial of the Nacken Vintage White would've looked... odd. White date wheels usually do.

Outside of the Nacken Vintage White, it's hard to find photo examples because the white-dial-with-black-date combo is rare, but I do think it often works well when it is employed. Black doesn't have the same "spotlight" effect to the eye that white does, so even if the black is contrasting with the dial, it tends to read as "background" rather than "foreground."

But even if you disagree there, I think it's hard to argue that dark-dial watches look better with white date wheels. On a dark-dial watch, a white date wheel often dominates the dial. This isn't a perfect example because I think there are other design choices here that mess things up, but in general, the dial of the Orient Ray Raven is much more balanced than that of the standard Ray:










vs.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Have a DevilFox coming in, pretty excited 

Ended up selling the BVB, I cant believe I am actually saying this, it was too thin?

I think just with my wrist size it fell small being both very thin and 40mm. Excited to see if a larger sub comes down the line. It was easily ones of the nicest watches I have owned........and in a few weeks Ill miss it and angrily search Recon to buy it back


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

As chuffed as I am about the pending new releases, could not pass on a decent deal for a BNIB Scorpene black/date. Should be here tomorrow. Jul 10 = day before Christmas.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Did someone here find that there are SOLID end-links for BOR bracelets which fit the Subs?
> 
> Just to be clear, I don't want to buy the bracelet. I'm just asking if there's a store like Watch Gecko or Strap Code which sells JUST the end-links, which are SOLID, for a BOR bracelet, but the links fit the Subs (even if the fit isn't perfect)?


Mno, I only found a full bracelet with solid ends from WG (the one made for their 40mm retro diver, I linked to it smth like a week or two ago). Afaik they don't sell just those solid endlinks alone (though I guess you can send them an email and ask). The fit is not 100% perfect, but good enough for use. (A touch too loose).


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Mno, I only found a full bracelet with solid ends from WG (the one made for their 40mm retro diver, I linked to it smth like a week or two ago). Afaik they don't sell just those solid endlinks alone (though I guess you can send them an email and ask). The fit is not 100% perfect, but good enough for use. (A touch too loose).


It was the G2 from WG, no?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Mno, I only found a full bracelet with solid ends from WG (the one made for their 40mm retro diver, I linked to it smth like a week or two ago). Afaik they don't sell just those solid endlinks alone (though I guess you can send them an email and ask). The fit is not 100% perfect, but good enough for use. (A touch too loose).


Thanks. That's what I thought. They sell end-links, but as far as I can see, not the solid ones, just the folded ones.

I'm still hopeful that we can find someone to modify the links we have to fit.

The sad irony here is that for all the talk about how "easy" 316L steel is to ding or scratch, the steel end-links are proving defiantly resilient in the face of all Dan's (quite deliberate) abuse.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)




----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> *Incomplete Test of Uncle Seiko Beads of Rice Bracelet, with Curved End Links, on NTH DevilRay
> *
> 
> . . .
> ...





DuckaDiesel said:


> Here are the fatties you are looking for
> 
> https://holbensfinewatchbands.com/c...set-of-fat-spring-bars?variant=16232345796719
> 
> ...


Quick final update re: the *Uncle Seiko beads of rice experiment on the DevilRay*.

*In short, the experiment failed.*

I got in 2.5mm spring bars with smaller diameter bar tips (0.8mm). The spring bars fit the spring bar holes on the DR sans bracelet.

However, the Uncle Seiko end links are just slightly too big for the spring bars to fit. Even with some shoving, the spring bars weren't clicking into place, and the end links were rubbing against the underside of the lugs and against the case, so I desisted.

Oh well. Moving on. Sorry to the underside of my lugs for marking you up a tad. But sometimes you just gotta do science.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Agent Sands said:


> Yeah, I think a white date wheel on the dial of the Nacken Vintage White would've looked... odd. White date wheels usually do.
> 
> Outside of the Nacken Vintage White, it's hard to find photo examples because the white-dial-with-black-date combo is rare, but I do think it often works well when it is employed. Black doesn't have the same "spotlight" effect to the eye that white does, so even if the black is contrasting with the dial, it tends to read as "background" rather than "foreground."
> 
> ...


I agree. On an skx mod I did, I went with the black day wheel but kept the date wheel white for symmetry.









Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I gotta start keeping a journal. Too much crazy $hlt happens in a week for me to keep track of it all.

Let's recap what's gone on since last Tuesday...

1. Another brand owner went completely ape$hlt on me, publicly, because I named one of the new models "Vanguard", and he was planning to use that name on one of his new models. The fact that I didn't realize he was planning to use the name way back when we decided to use it, or the fact that he doesn't own it (from an IP perspective), or the fact that multiple other brands have used it, didn't seem to sway him, in the least.

2. Anonymous blogger doxed and smeared me. All hell breaks loose. Another business owner with a long standing, yet completely unexplained grudge decided to roll around in the stink, and I get yelled at when I admit I also saw him rolling around in it, and don't know why he was doing it.

3. And, as of last night, apparently, I've been booted out of a FB group set up for microbrand owners to help each other.

Why?

Well, as best as I can understand, despite being one of, if not the most helpful member of the group, I was kicked out because I was being too helpful, and it was really annoying some folks, including the group's owner, who just happens to own an online store selling microbrands, but not NTH.

I'm serious. I didn't break any rules. I wasn't causing any trouble (at least, not in my usual way). I wasn't arguing with anyone. I never belittled anyone. I responded politely and thoughtfully to every question anyone in the group put to me directly (including the one the group's owner put to me less than a week ago), and did my honest best to add constructive advice and counsel in multiple other discussions. Several members thanked me for my help and advice.

But, because I'm running Microbrand University Workshops (where the sole purpose is helping microbrands grow their businesses), apparently that ruffles some feathers (apparently including the group's owner's), and the ruffling is only intensified when I occasionally mention it, even if the mentioning of it happens to be entirely relevant to the discussion at hand.

Nope. No good. Booted without warning or explanation. Had to go and ask the group's mods to explain. Was told it was exactly what I just said - I'm annoying the wrong people by having a successful business and trying to help others make their businesses successful.

I once tried to explain to the group owner (months ago, when I discovered my posts needed moderator approval all of a sudden) - look, you own a store selling microbrands. With MBU, we're trying to help other brands grow and be more successful. I'm not arguing with people. We're not selling bad advice. We offer a money-back satisfaction guarantee. If we're successful at helping others be more successful, that's good for all of us, especially you, since you own a store selling microbrands.

He never bothered to respond. Didn't even bother to respond today. He booted me, and delegated the task of explaining to one of the group mods. Most amazing display of leadership I've ever seen.

Awesome.

Know what? We've already got 6 guys registered for the next MBU workshop. We'll probably get a few more before we're done. So far, they're all in pre-launch. Five years from now, we'll see some of these guys running successful businesses, using the tools we gave them. We're going to train the guys who are going to put the other guys out of business.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Agent Sands said:


> View attachment 14298553


Your photography skills surpass mine. But, my watch is as kewl as yours!


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I gotta start keeping a journal. Too much crazy $hlt happens in a week for me to keep track of it all.
> 
> Let's recap what's gone on since last Tuesday...
> 
> ...


The universe is reminding you that this thread is where it's at.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Haters gonna hate


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> The universe is reminding you that this thread is where it's at.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Multiple members of my inner circle have told me I really should stop trying to help other people. Clearly, all it does is piss some people off.

What can I say?

I'm a giver...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Multiple members of my inner circle have told me I really should stop trying to help other people. Clearly, all it does is piss some people off.
> 
> What can I say?
> 
> I'm a giver...


Sounds like a win-win situation...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Such drama. You should write a book.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Agent Sands said:


> My odd-man-out position on date windows is that, 9 times out of 10--even when dealing with white-dial watches--black date wheels look better.


I don't recall ever seeing a watch like that.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> I gotta start keeping a journal. Too much crazy $hlt happens in a week for me to keep track of it all.
> 
> Let's recap what's gone on since last Tuesday...
> 
> ...


Just proves no good deed goes unpunished. You're a good guy Chris, don't change a thing about who you are and what and why you do what you do. I for one got your 6!


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Multiple members of my inner circle have told me I really should stop trying to help other people. Clearly, all it does is piss some people off.
> 
> What can I say?
> 
> I'm a giver...


F em. The proof is in the pudding. Your product is excellent and people want to give you money for education because you're a proven entity (winner). Keep entertaining us, love your family and sleep soundly


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

92gli said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > My odd-man-out position on date windows is that, 9 times out of 10--even when dealing with white-dial watches--black date wheels look better.
> ...


They exist! The Nacken Vintage White is one. I'd post pics of other examples, but it'd take me ages to look through my collection of watch pics to find them.

Here's one that came up via Google Image search:


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Well, the nacken black date is kind of necessary. The baume... Can't decide if it's out of line or cool. It adds a bit of sportiness to that piece.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Tanjecterly said:


> Such drama. You should write a book.


Just think who would/could be pissed at that.

Maybe we can have a bunch of fanboys from various Authors came here and wave their finger at Doc. Hell there could even be an Amazon prime short series about him and of course, Netflix would get their feathers all in a bunch.


----------



## Firecrow911 (Mar 7, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Trials and tribulations. As a business owner and entrepreneur for the past 30 years, I can tell you as your professional network and contacts increase, so does the number of those who take their problems out on you and those who are direct business antagonists and confuse competition with "enemy". This effect intensifies with success and one has to learn to not let it affect you. There will be those who are jealous of success and there are those who believe in zero-sum games, ie: success is scarce and only so much to go around and you are successful at the expense of others. It is a very underdeveloped worldview but you can see its effect today (a certain POTUS).

I don't suffer fools and I also don't socialize with those that pull that passive aggressive crap. As a result my business circles of friendships tend to be small and tight. You may discover a need to practice active filtering and carefully manage what you share with who and where. If you're an outgoing person this will be a difficult thing to adjust to. Personally I tend to overshare and over trust still and it bites me ocassionally.

Hang in there it gets better.

Sent from my overpriced data plan.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Mno, I only found a full bracelet with solid ends from WG (the one made for their 40mm retro diver, I linked to it smth like a week or two ago). Afaik they don't sell just those solid endlinks alone (though I guess you can send them an email and ask). The fit is not 100% perfect, but good enough for use. (A touch too loose).


The end links on mine are pretty tight. Any tighter and it would have been a real pain to get the bracelet on.

Doc Savage


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

92gli said:


> I don't recall ever seeing a watch like that.


I know that I have seen something like an Eterna/Baume/Raymond Weil with the black date wheel too, but here is a white dialed Hamilton with black day and date!









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Quoting a Watch Gauge email:

"Introducing...

The Amphion Commando
The Vanguard Blue
The Tikuna"

Is that a meaningful extra word?

I suppose it wouldn't take much imagination to imagine there could be other color variants in the offing. Just more imagination than I have because it didn't dawn on me until I saw Blue in the email.

Who wants to take a stab at predicting the roll out order. I mean, obviously Vanguard Magenta will be next. But after that?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Quoting a Watch Gauge email:
> 
> "Introducing...
> 
> ...


Tikuna Black.

Technically, internally, the Tikuna is the Tikuna Black.

Why?

1. Every model we make could potentially be made in another color.

2. Every model needs a unique SKU alphanumeric code as an identifier. As soon as I realized I'd messed up by NOT designating colors for some early models which were only made in one color at first, I started making sure the SKUs all had a letter to designate the color variation.

3. Once we did that, from that point on, all model SKUs had a letter to designate the color, which then started to carry over into the model names, so that even when a model was only made in one color, and that color was obvious, we still sometimes include the color in the name, when referring to them internally.

So...as an example, we might come up with a new design, like the Skipjack, Odin, Bahia, Dolphin, Tikuna and Vanguard. We might experiment with different colors for each. While hashing out which ones will make it to production, we need a way to talk about them internally, so that when I tell Aaron or Rusty to make a change to the "Vanguard" they know which one I mean. Hence, "Vanguard BLUE".

We've got alternate colorways illustrated for most models. They don't always make it into production.

You shouldn't read too much into it.

Or....should you?


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Internet experts.

Pic from Cyanide and Happiness...

Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> You're reminding me why I started avoiding the mods thread. Too many options to keep straight. Plus those damn seconds hands will pi$$ you right off!


No kidding. I've already pretty much abandoned the idea of modding the SNZH, and now I'm thinking about doing a black gold PVD SKX FFF mod using the Crystal Times case. I like the combo of the FFF dial and SARB017 hands.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Agent Sands said:


> My odd-man-out position on date windows is that, 9 times out of 10--even when dealing with white-dial watches--black date wheels look better.


Agreed. Monta's Oceanking is a good case in point, because they've done both. I think they went overboard with the window outline on the V1, but otherwise it looks fine. For the current one they did a white wheel to "balance out" the lume at 12. I don't like it. If I bought one, the first thing I'd do is swap out the date wheel for a black one.

















For deep blue dials I prefer black if matched isn't possible. Light blue I think tends to work better with white, though.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)




----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Mr. Holland on canvas...


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)




----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Dub Rubb said:


> 92gli said:
> 
> 
> > I don't recall ever seeing a watch like that.
> ...


And just think of how much more boring that Hamilton would be with white day/date wheels!

That said, it definitely creates a "look"--especially with that big "day" window--but I think it adds a bit of pep.

Not that it would work on *every* white dial watch with a date complication. Even that Hamilton made other design choices to ensure it still looks balanced. But I do think it's an underutilized design choice!

Strip away my exaggeration and my opinion is this: that white date wheels are the industry "default" strikes me as being a poor choice. In many cases black date wheels would look better, even on some iconic watches, and the industry would do better to use black date wheels more often than they do.



Davekaye90 said:


> For deep blue dials I prefer black if matched isn't possible. Light blue I think tends to work better with white, though.


Yeah, light blue often looks odd with black (depending on the other accents around the dial).

But with dark blue? It's best to go black.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

The past few pages of this thread make me want a NVW *with* date. Hmmm...

>>>Ripped from NTH's IG page>>>









Yeah, that looks good.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> I know that I have seen something like an Eterna/Baume/Raymond Weil with the black date wheel too, but here is a white dialed Hamilton with black day and date!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree - at least at first, the black day/date wheels work well here, especially since the designer was sharp enough to continue the black onto the handset, and the little pips at every hour. I think this looks much better than the black version:









However, this just occurs to me now - is there any lume on it? It doesn't appear to be a full-lume dial. Okay, it's not a diver, but, it is a "field" watch, so having some lume would seem mission-appropriate.

Bringing this back full-circle, to the question which prompted it - why did we use a black wheel under a black dial, rather than a white wheel, if the date window is at 6, in place of a marker which would otherwise be lumed...

If these WERE divers, not field watches, I know what I'd do, because it's what we've already done...

1. Make the dial white. Lume the markers. Use a white date wheel. Put the date somewhere it doesn't take the place of a marker. See the v.1 (original) Santa Cruz.

2. Make the dial white. Lume the markers. Use a white date wheel. Put the date where it does take the place of a marker. See the v.2 (current) Santa Cruz.

3. Make the dial full lume. Make all the markers black. Don't make a with-date version. See the Santa Fe.

4. Make the dial full lume. Make the markers black. Make the date wheel black. Put the date window where it takes the place of a marker of roughly the same size/shape. See the Nacken Vintage White.

For the non-white versions...

1. Use a black date wheel under a black dial. Put the window somewhere it's not going to cut off a white or some other color marker. See Scorpene Black, Tikuna, and Nacken Vintage Black.

2. Don't make a with date version. See the Barracuda Brown.

3. Put the date in place of a marker. Make a decision about which would look better, a black or white wheel. Under a black dial, probably black (see Barracuda Vintage Black). Under some other color dial, it depends (probably white, see Odin Blue), or go back to 2, above, and don't make it with a date at all, and stop thinking about it. See Nacken Vintage Blue.

4. Debate it for a while with watch-geeks online. Change nothing.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

There's a part of me that wants to accuse Hamilton of being cheap and lazy (cost-conscious and savvy), where they used the same movement with black day/date wheels for both models as a cost saving measure rather than part of a design decision independent of financial realities.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I really like what they did with the black day date on that white Hamilton.

I really really like what this cool brand called NTH did on this one


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> There's a part of me that wants to accuse Hamilton of being cheap and lazy (cost-conscious and savvy), where they used the same movement with black day/date wheels for both models as a cost saving measure rather than part of a design decision independent of financial realities.


It may have been a cost-cutting decision, or just one made by way of being too lazy to think about.

I don't like to assume that. I think if you look at both dial colors, and both date wheel colors as possibilities, they made the right aesthetic decision in both scenarios. It's just that the white dial comes off better than the black, IMO.

And I don't just mean the date wheel color. I mean, looking at both, the white looks cleaner, less cluttered than the black, even though I can't detect any difference in dial pattern, or anything else, other than the differences in colors.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I attended my first Red Bar meeting up here in Toronto and was thrilled to meet Wes of Nodus. He was 1 of quite a few that wanted to look at a couple of my NTH's. The Gilty goodness Carolina and the bluquoise Devil Ray was worn by a few gents. 

You might even say my wrists thrilled a handful of Men last night!

Doc has lots O Luv from the Tdot.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Ojibway Bob said:


> You might even say my wrists thrilled a handful of Men last night!


Usually costs extra.........


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Usually costs extra.........


I take Whisk(e)y as my currency.

Well that and never ending love.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> I take Whisk(e)y as my currency.
> 
> Well that and never ending love.


Every discussion you enter, it's like zero to bizarre in Shane seconds...


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Lagavulin or nothing for me (not really true but its by far my favorite)



Ojibway Bob said:


> I take Whisk(e)y as my currency.
> 
> Well that and never ending love.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> It may have been a cost-cutting decision, or just one made by way of being too lazy to think about.
> 
> I don't like to assume that. I think if you look at both dial colors, and both date wheel colors as possibilities, they made the right aesthetic decision in both scenarios. It's just that the white dial comes off better than the black, IMO.
> 
> And I don't just mean the date wheel color. I mean, looking at both, the white looks cleaner, less cluttered than the black, even though I can't detect any difference in dial pattern, or anything else, other than the differences in colors.


I agree 100%. The black dial version is fine, but ordinary. The white dial though is unique thanks to the black (lumed?) hands and black day/date wheels. If you look at white or light silver dialed Hammies with white day/date discs, they are considerably more bland looking by comparison, even though that's arguably the "correct" way to do it.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

TGIF... zuludiver tropic from gecko watch!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Any of you guys who have the Nacken Vintage White - if you're on Instagram, please do post your pics there, and tag us. We've got more coming later this summer, and want to start showing it more.

THANKS!


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I’m looking for a tropic myself. How is this one? I have read when silicone is used they can attract dust. Is it silicone or hard rubber?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nikita70 said:


> I'm looking for a tropic myself. How is this one? I have read when silicone is used they can attract dust. Is it silicone or hard rubber?


It's not silicone. It's also not "hard" rubber. They were very nice straps, made from EPDM rubber.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Are you referring to the gecko tropic? One of the best but slightly different from the vintage ones as its matte finish and doesn't have the taper.. its 20mm to 18mm.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Every discussion you enter, it's like zero to bizarre in Shane seconds...


That's me in a Doc Minute.

I am often amazed at the expressions on people's faces when I start talking at times and let my mind do it's thang. The looks they give me remind me that in a perfect world, everyone would be inside me....

My head but what evs!!


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Summer time means DevilRay time.




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

OK, so there are mesh bracelets with a solid, straight endlink, and then there are mesh bracelets which end with just mesh, like ck2k01's DevilRay, above. Is there some particular nomenclature to differentiate between the two, or if looking for either specific end, you just search mesh bracelets for the end you want?


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> It's not silicone. It's also not "hard" rubber. They were very nice straps, made from EPDM rubber.


hmmm EPDM huh?

I have so much of that at work. I wonder if I should snag a few feet of it and try to make some straps.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> OK, so there are mesh bracelets with a solid, straight endlink, and then there are mesh bracelets which end with just mesh, like ck2k01's DevilRay, above. Is there some particular nomenclature to differentiate between the two, or if looking for either specific end, you just search mesh bracelets for the end you want?


The "straight endlink" mesh is typically described as *Milanese* mesh.

The mesh you see on ck2k01's is typically described as a *Shark* mesh.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> OK, so there are mesh bracelets with a solid, straight endlink, and then there are mesh bracelets which end with just mesh, like ck2k01's DevilRay, above. Is there some particular nomenclature to differentiate between the two, or if looking for either specific end, you just search mesh bracelets for the end you want?


As for the ends, you just look at pictures to see if the shark mesh bracelet in question has straight end links or, as I prefer, just ends as shark mesh.

I also prefer when a shark mesh bracelet uses a few removable I-shaped "links" near the clasp for easy resizing. Otherwise, some shark mesh bracelets require you to actually cut/trim the bracelet down, which I find risky (and irreversible), and not all that user friendly (nor useful for resale).

Mine is from WatchGecko, by the way. It features all my preferences.

If you opt for the WatchGecko, just make sure not to get the old discounted one with the non-latching (non-safety) clasp. That old clasp sucked-it was too big and didn't secure well. Get this one.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Ojibway Bob said:


> hmmm EPDM huh?
> 
> I have so much of that at work. I wonder if I should snag a few feet of it and try to make some straps.


What could possibly go wrong...

watch addict in recovery


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

illumidata said:


> What could possibly go wrong...
> 
> watch addict in recovery


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - mesh bracelets.

1. I may be wrong, but I thought there was more difference between shark and milanese than just how they end. Isn't there some difference in the thickness of the links, too?

2. Last year in HK, Chip from Aevig told me he found a vendor with a mesh bracelet that was remarkable. I can't remember if he said it somehow tapered, or ended in a fitted (curved) end-link, or maybe both. I said I wanted to go see it, but we didn't go right away, then we forgot, and I never found it later.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Re - mesh bracelets.
> 
> 1. I may be wrong, but I thought there was more difference between shark and milanese than just how they end. Isn't there some difference in the thickness of the links, too?


The primary difference between the two isn't really the endlinks but really the kind of links they use. Milanese is a finer weave while Shark is more chainmail-esque.



docvail said:


> 2. Last year in HK, Chip from Aevig told me he found a vendor with a mesh bracelet that was remarkable. I can't remember if he said it somehow tapered, or ended in a fitted (curved) end-link, or maybe both. I said I wanted to go see it, but we didn't go right away, then we forgot, and I never found it later.


Womp womp.

I would've loved to know more about it. I'm a big fan of the *idea* of mesh but find so many of the bracelets (both high-end and low-end) underwhelming.

The forthcoming Omega mesh--the unannounced one they've got cooked up for the new Bond movie--looks kinda interesting, at least in terms of its thinness and fine-weave texture (both of which distinguish it from the bulk of mesh bracelets currently available in any style). I'm sure that once it's officially announced, we'll see a bunch of imitators crop up.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Re - mesh bracelets.
> 
> 1. I may be wrong, but I thought there was more difference between shark and milanese than just how they end. Isn't there some difference in the thickness of the links, too?
> 
> 2. Last year in HK, Chip from Aevig told me he found a vendor with a mesh bracelet that was remarkable. I can't remember if he said it somehow tapered, or ended in a fitted (curved) end-link, or maybe both. I said I wanted to go see it, but we didn't go right away, then we forgot, and I never found it later.


Not an expert either but I too regard Milanese and shark mesh to be quite different. There's a few other types of common metal weaves too, and their texture/look, typical thickness, etc. all tend to vary by style and manufacturer.

I've tried Milanese on my Squale but I've never bonded with Milanese (it's dressier and I don't really like straight end links on metal bracelets). I love me some shark mesh, though. Rugged and sporty, and you can skip straight end links.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

ck2k01 said:


> I've tried Milanese on my Squale but I've never bonded with Milanese (it's dressier and I don't really like straight end links on metal bracelets). I love me some shark mesh, though. Rugged and sporty, and you can skip straight end links.


I'm a "dressy" guy, so the Shark-style ones are too bulky and utilitarian-looking to me.

I do like the look of the Vollmer curved-end Milanese mesh bracelets you can get from Long Island Watch, but I don't like the clasp/sizing mechanisms they use.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Re - mesh bracelets.
> 
> 1. I may be wrong, but I thought there was more difference between shark and milanese than just how they end. Isn't there some difference in the thickness of the links, too?
> 
> 2. Last year in HK, Chip from Aevig told me he found a vendor with a mesh bracelet that was remarkable. I can't remember if he said it somehow tapered, or ended in a fitted (curved) end-link, or maybe both. I said I wanted to go see it, but we didn't go right away, then we forgot, and I never found it later.


Probably not it.










Pic from: https://www.watch-band-center.com/watchstrap-h262-Rios1931.html

Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> Re - mesh bracelets.
> 
> 1. I may be wrong, but I thought there was more difference between shark and milanese than just how they end. Isn't there some difference in the thickness of the links, too?
> .


As far as I know from experience, milanese has higher metal mesh density, thus more rigid. Shark mesh has loose metal mesh that makes it very flexible. I have small wrist and never had a good fit with milanese, it just couldn't follow the contour of my wrist. Shark mesh, on the other hand, would wrap my wrist perfectly once sized.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

wtma said:


> As far as I know from experience, milanese has higher metal mesh density, thus more rigid. Shark mesh has loose metal mesh that makes it very flexible. I have small wrist and never had a good fit with milanese, it just couldn't follow the contour of my wrist. Shark mesh, on the other hand, would wrap my wrist perfectly once sized.


It depends on the thickness of the Milanese. A thick Milanese bracelet is stiff, but a very thin one--like you'll find in NOS mesh straps from the 60s/70s--is very flexible.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FWIW, if you're ever near a Breitling AD, check out the mesh bracelet on the SuperOcean Heritage line. On either side of the clasp there are sections where the links are almost "faux", arranged in sections, which pivot, and can be removed to size the bracelet. 

It's pretty slick, IMO.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> FWIW, if you're ever near a Breitling AD, check out the mesh bracelet on the SuperOcean Heritage line. On either side of the clasp there are sections where the links are almost "faux", arranged in sections, which pivot, and can be removed to size the bracelet.
> 
> It's pretty slick, IMO.


I just looked up a picture. That's impressive. And the mesh tapers!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I typically see a difference in the clasps on mesh bracelets. Shark-mesh usually has a folding clasp, similar to that found on a h-link or oyster bracelet. Milanese clasps are typically a three piece flip-over clasp that separates to make that a two-piece bracelet. Like so:


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep 6









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> FWIW, if you're ever near a Breitling AD, check out the mesh bracelet on the SuperOcean Heritage line. On either side of the clasp there are sections where the links are almost "faux", arranged in sections, which pivot, and can be removed to size the bracelet.
> 
> It's pretty slick, IMO.


This exactly. The Breitling SO Heritage is the only OEM mesh band I would consider buying. It is really nice.

Doc Savage


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> FWIW, if you're ever near a Breitling AD, check out the mesh bracelet on the SuperOcean Heritage line. On either side of the clasp there are sections where the links are almost "faux", arranged in sections, which pivot, and can be removed to size the bracelet.
> 
> It's pretty slick, IMO.


Anything like these? This is the first mesh bracelet I bought, about 10 years ago from an ebay seller named Will Jean, maybe wjean. Tapers 22-20. All of the links have been removed but one.





Bought for a Seiko diver, so not really in Breitling class.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

MikeyT said:


> Anything like these? This is the first mesh bracelet I bought, about 10 years ago from an ebay seller named Will Jean, maybe wjean. Tapers 22-20. All of the links have been removed but one.
> 
> Bought for a Seiko diver, so not really in Breitling class.


No. The Breitling removable mesh links look much more seamless (borrowed pic):


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Staib makes a gorgeous milanese bracelet. It is NOT cheap, but I have one, and it's a true favorite. The removable sections are visible, but flush.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

New watch days are the best days


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sold my last DevilRay today. 

I think there's one white one left in Hong Kong. Other than that, the only version still available is the DevilFox LE at Watch Wonderland.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

Breitling SO mesh... pretty slick


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Things must really be slow if we're chatting about mesh bracelets.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I thought it was a nice change of pace from the date window discussion...


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Tanjecterly said:


> Things must really be slow if we're chatting about mesh bracelets.


If it's excitement you seek, the Ginault thread is right next door


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkLH said:


> Breitling SO mesh... pretty slick
> 
> View attachment 14304775


I wonder how many people complain about that clasp on a $3000-$5000 watch, seeing as how it doesn't even look as good as the one people said was sub-par on the $600 NTH Subs.

Before anyone goes off on me - I've been to Breitling AD's, and tried them on. Trust me, it's not even as good as the one we used to include on the NTH Subs. It's literally the cheapest piece of folded metal crap you could put onto a watch.

The bracelet felt very well made. That clasp is a joke.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> If it's a *Tijuana Donkey Show* you seek, the Ginault thread is right next door


FTFY.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Agent Sands said:


> If it's excitement you seek, the Ginault thread is right next door


Oh man, I just wasted a couple hours of my life reading that. No humor in it at all. Just a lot of mud-slinging and poor debating skills.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I’ve read enough about the BS going on. Don’t need to read any more. I’m here for watches, not drama.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Agent Sands said:


> If it's excitement you seek, the Ginault thread is right next door


Hard pass.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

That thread has gone through some crazy ups and downs. OP was even found to be an avid replica watch buyer/seller himself, which is... ironic? Or something.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Oh man, I just wasted a couple hours of my life reading that. No humor in it at all. Just a lot of mud-slinging and poor debating skills.


That's why I called it a Tijuana Donkey Show - impossible to follow, and you'd have to be sick to enjoy it.

But it ain't like other social media sites are hosting much better arguments...

Earlier today I commented on a post someone made, showing the amazing results from using laser welding to repair case damage. I said the transformation was amazing.

I get that with some coveted vintage pieces, you don't want to lose the patina on the dial or hands, and maybe it's a bad idea to replace the bezel insert, but who could argue with dramatically improving the condition of the case?

Uhm, some guy on Facebook. He was adamant that a beat-to-hell case was better, because "it tells a story."

Yes, it does. It's a story involving that same guy, expecting a much lower price on a vintage watch, because the case is beat to hell, and expecting a much higher price if he's selling one with a pristine, recently repaired/refinished case.

Just within the last hour, I was scolded for posting a link to a ridiculous Kickstarter project, for others' amusement. I never look at Kickstarter. Ever. But my FB feed has sponsored posts (read: "ads") from some thinly-veiled ad agency called "My Top Kickstarter Projects".

What I find hilarious is:

1. The projects they promote are invariably terrible - terrible in conception, terrible in execution.

2. Their posts (the ad agency's, not the project creators') always have laughably bad "click-bait" headlines, like "The internet is going crazy for this amazing ______." Their attempts at guile are precisely as weak as you'd expect from an ad agency that names itself "My Top Kickstarter Projects".

My dad spent the most meaningful part of his career in advertising, as a copy writer. It just strikes me as funny that the agency with the worst copy writers on the planet somehow always links up with the most dubious KS projects as clients, the ones that look like they were concocted in the bong-smoked back room of a frat house.

I thought it was funny. Other people thought it was funny. It's Friday night. We were having a good laugh. Where's the harm?

But apparently no picnic is complete without someone bringing ants. Within 30 minutes of my posting it, we were being scolded for being "snobs" (not sure why, no one mentioned anything about big-name luxury brands or prices), and crapping on someone's dreams, or something.

As if every KS project is created by some scrappy yet sincere upstart with more moxie than money. No one is just cynically looking to cash in on the gold rush. None of the bazillion "let us help you promote your project" ad agencies is selling a pipe dream.

Yeah, they're ALL lifelong watch enthusiasts, trying to raise money so they can make a watch no enthusiast this side of Stevie Wonder would wear.

I wasn't a lifelong watch enthusiast when I designed my first watch (the design I had before the Riccardo). It was terrible. I mean it. It was laughably bad. It would give you cancer if I showed you.

It was a mash up of Rolex Sub, Breitling Navitimer, and Planet Ocean. If that sounds interesting, trust me, it wasn't. It was disgusting. I'm totally willing to admit that it would have been a complete disaster if I tried to raise money to make it. And if I did try, and decided to hire a no-talent agency to shill for me, and everyone laughed at me, I'd have deserved it.

Meh.

I need chocolate. I wonder if my wife and kids are hiding any cookies...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> That thread has gone through some crazy ups and downs. OP was even found to be an avid replica watch buyer/seller himself, which is... ironic? Or something.


I think I once read a comment from OP, in which he said I was arrogant.

Think about it. That's possibly the least sticky accusation, from a "you hurt my feelings" standpoint.

Anyone truly arrogant wouldn't be the least bit concerned that someone accused them of being arrogant. Anyone who cares enough to be offended can't possibly be that arrogant.

What does it mean that I can't help but smile and shake my head when I read stuff like that?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I think I once read a comment from OP, in which he said I was arrogant.
> 
> Think about it. That's possibly the least sticky accusation, from a "you hurt my feelings" standpoint.
> 
> ...


Didn't you sell a KS chronograph with a seagull movement? Is that legit? Discuss.

Too soon?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > If it's a *Tijuana Donkey Show* you seek, the Ginault thread is right next door
> ...


I take it back. That thread had an amazing twist in the last dozen pages.

For those who stopped paying attention, the guy who's been on a crusade against TC/Ginault for making fakes (the OP) turns out to be a regular on the replica forums, and was on there asking what we in the sales game call "buying questions" as recently as six weeks ago.

He's even made his own reps!

I did not see that coming...










Now there's speculation he and the blogger are one in the same. That actually makes more sense than the theory that the guy behind TC/Ginault is the blogger, and outed himself.



hwa said:


> Didn't you sell a KS chronograph with a seagull movement? Is that legit? Discuss.
> 
> Too soon?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, I did. But in my defense, I really liked chronographs at the time.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Anyone here ever had good photography trick you into liking a watch enough to buy it?

I'm sure I've brought this up somewhere before. There are watches I *KNOW* I definitely do NOT like, but damn, sometimes someone will post a pic of one, and the pic is so good, it gets me thinking I want one.

You don't even know how dangerous it is when it's an NTH watch, one we haven't made in a while, and I start thinking, "Hmph, maybe we should make another 50 of those." 

Never mind the fact that the first however many we made didn't exactly sell like fire to cavemen. Oh no. Don't remind me of that. I'm already breaking out the spreadsheet with the production queue, trying to figure out where we can jam in another 50 pieces before Christmas...


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Anyone here ever had good photography trick you into liking a watch enough to buy it?
> 
> I'm sure I've brought this up somewhere before. There are watches I *KNOW* I definitely do NOT like, but damn, sometimes someone will post a pic of one, and the pic is so good, it gets me thinking I want one.
> 
> ...


Any photos for affordables Doc, as most affordables aren't in stores where I can handle them it's always the photos I've been going off. That has proved problematic. Especially with Steinharts......

......can't stand their straight lugs, but I've bought numerous ones because of their photos and photos on here. They never last. Last one lasted less than an hour from delivery o| o| o|


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

I like all my NTH watches and I have a bunch, but this one gets as much wrist time as any. It is subtle and steely and flys under the radar.

Lousy photo of a great watch.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

A couple of tropics arrived from CNS pretty good for the price paid the skin diver tropic is soft af...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> As if every KS project is created by some scrappy yet sincere upstart with more moxie than money. No one is just cynically looking to cash in on the gold rush. None of the bazillion "let us help you promote your project" ad agencies is selling a pipe dream.
> 
> Yeah, they're ALL lifelong watch enthusiasts, trying to raise money so they can make a watch no enthusiast this side of Stevie Wonder would wear.


Reminds me of the guy selling lightly modified Vostok watches on KS claiming that they were "luxury watches" and that their 18K BPH movements were superior to Rolex because they had more jewels in them. Not joking.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Anyone here ever had good photography trick you into liking a watch enough to buy it?
> 
> I'm sure I've brought this up somewhere before. There are watches I *KNOW* I definitely do NOT like, but damn, sometimes someone will post a pic of one, and the pic is so good, it gets me thinking I want one.
> 
> ...


Yup. Nothing at all against Phil, but the sexy photos of the VPO convinced me to jump on board, and it turned out that the watch looked much sexier in photos than in person. What I was hoping was going to be Aliens meets Panerai turned out to be a sandwich dial that was so shallow that the markers might as well have been painted on. In the case of the Evant Tropic, the photos I saw before I got mine didn't make clear what a slab sided tuna can that case turned out to be. It's much more deserving of that moniker than any Seiko in my opinion.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Anyone here ever had good photography trick you into liking a watch enough to buy it?
> 
> I'm sure I've brought this up somewhere before. There are watches I *KNOW* I definitely do NOT like, but damn, sometimes someone will post a pic of one, and the pic is so good, it gets me thinking I want one.
> 
> ...


I do. Never thought I would buy a Nacken vintage in the first batch, due to various reason. Then this hit me










I bought it almost immediately from the guy who posted it. Once I have it in my hand, the green lume on the bezel insert somehow turned me off (wish it was whiter). I sold it to fund the Carolina, but every time I saw a picture of a Nacken vintage black online, I really want to buy it back.

Edit: recently I don't see you design the "sandpaper" dial for another NTH anymore. Is there because the lack of interest towards the particular model, or the time is not right?


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Hornet99 said:


> Any photos for affordables Doc, as most affordables aren't in stores where I can handle them it's always the photos I've been going off. That has proved problematic. Especially with Steinharts......
> 
> ......can't stand their straight lugs, but I've bought numerous ones because of their photos and photos on here. They never last. Last one lasted less than an hour from delivery o| o| o|


True story: I hated the Steinhart straight lugs until I saw the Omega 1957 trilogy and realised that all this time they've been homaging the pre-Genta Seamaster. Now I think they're great, but all the designs I like are too big. Call it a testament to my own ignorance and the mutability of perception.

watch addict in recovery


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> What does it mean that I can't help but smile and shake my head when I read stuff like that?


What's next in character defects, above arrogant...?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Yeah, they're ALL lifelong watch enthusiasts, trying to raise money so they can make a watch no enthusiast this side of Stevie Wonder would wear.


And disrupt the watch industry. You forgot "They're disrupting the watch industry."


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I had narrowed NTH subs I wanted down to two models: Scorpene black, or Nacken Vintage white. 

Deal popped up on a Scorpene at just the right time, so I snagged it. Yay, me, right? 

Then someone here posted a pic of a NVW with date which had me immediately second guessing my choice...

There's also someone on the forum who posted pr0n shots of his Glycine Combat 6 36mm with blue dial that were soooooo sexy...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

As to the watch photos making me want to buy a watch, in my case that's "all of them."

I have FINALLY learned to really read the specs before I jump, as in "16mm thick". There's a GMT on watchrecon at the moment, that I've had to staple my thumb to my hand to keep me from buying. The photos are great, but the specs reveal the dark side...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I did a thing. Curse you and your pics, TimeBum!

Skinny 9015 for under $300.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> As to the watch photos making me want to buy a watch, in my case that's "all of them."
> 
> I have FINALLY learned to really read the specs before I jump, as in "16mm thick". There's a GMT on watchrecon at the moment, that I've had to staple my thumb to my hand to keep me from buying. The photos are great, but the specs reveal the dark side...


Yeah, specs are important. This watch is cool as hell, and I'd totally buy one. I'm normally not a huge small seconds fan, but that's an amazing way to do it. Oh, 44mm case and 54mm L2L. Neeeewp. Also, now that I think about it, I wonder if it would sit funny on the wrist if you DON'T wear it with a NATO/Zulu/perlon strap, as that's the whole point of doing the caseback like that.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Anyone here ever had good photography trick you into liking a watch enough to buy it?
> 
> I'm sure I've brought this up somewhere before. There are watches I *KNOW* I definitely do NOT like, but damn, sometimes someone will post a pic of one, and the pic is so good, it gets me thinking I want one.


Yep. Several. I'm gonna list here those that I ended up not liking irl. (A couple I acknowledge turned out great irl too, like the autodromo prototipo redman edition... that thing I miss so so so SO MUCH).

Right, the tricky bastarts (not the photos that tricked, but the watches that arrived):








crown way too small, overall too small








too thick








too blocky + no real lume + slippery bezel








too thick, low quality dial print








almost a perfect watch. Movement had unconvincing "stop" at full wind, felt somehow fragile. I was always afraid of overwinding it. This one is less a "not liking it" - I still like how it look(ed) and wore, but its more a case of "one thing that a photo won't tell you is the dealbreaker".








too thick








great watch, looked rubbish on almost every strap








big, thick, unrefined.  Huge disappointment.








low-end feeling fit and finish. looked pretty cheap up-close.








low quality dial print - didn't live up to its gimmick.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

My prayers 🙏 have been answered. All the talk about bracelets has subsided, at least for now. Holy Mother Mary on a bicycle, PLEASE, I'm begging you, anything but more bracelet talk. Milanese, Viennese, Siamese; end links, lugs, clasps, BOR. BOR = first 3 letters of BORED!
Even date wheels are better!

Reminds me of the never ending discussion on the shotgun forums and FB sites. What choke is best? What brand shell should I use? What load breaks more clays? 








Ahhhh, that feels better. My rant is over. Carry on.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

RmacMD said:


> My prayers &#55357;&#56911; have been answered. All the talk about bracelets has subsided, at least for now. Holy Mother Mary on a bicycle, PLEASE, I'm begging you, anything but more bracelet talk. Milanese, Viennese, Siamese; end links, lugs, clasps, BOR. BOR = first 3 letters of BORED!
> Even date wheels are better!
> 
> Reminds me of the never ending discussion on the shotgun forums and FB sites. What choke is best? What brand shell should I use? What load breaks more clays?
> ...


there are lulls between new watch releases, other conversations will creep in

you could always insert your watch photos to steer conversation in another direction...give it a try


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> What's next in character defects, above arrogant...?


WIS

Doc Savage


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

And, back to watches. And living in the boonies.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Any photos for affordables Doc, as most affordables aren't in stores where I can handle them it's always the photos I've been going off. That has proved problematic. Especially with Steinharts......
> 
> ......can't stand their straight lugs, but I've bought numerous ones because of their photos and photos on here. They never last. Last one lasted less than an hour from delivery o| o| o|


Yeah, I probably butchered that question...never mind, after a night's sleep, I realize what I was saying might have been stupidly obvious.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Forever8895 said:


> I do. Never thought I would buy a Nacken vintage in the first batch, due to various reason. Then this hit me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The lume on the bezel is C3, for whatever it's worth. If it looks green, that's because it's glowing.

It feels weird to hear of someone who disliked "day lume", but, yes, that will make lume look green sometimes, even when not in total darkness.

We actually do use the sandpaper texture still. We just released another batch of the Nacken Vintage Blue, with the same texture. The "rice paper" dials are basically the same, but the full-lume treatment seems to soften the texture a bit, hence the more descriptive term. We used that on the Santa Fe and the Nacken Vintage White. There are more of the NVW in the pipeline.

I might have used it on the Renegade, but I'm glad we didn't, given the glossy coating they put on that dial. Happy we went with vertical brushing instead.

If it feels "right", we'll use it on another model.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

illumidata said:


> True story: I hated the Steinhart straight lugs until I saw the Omega 1957 trilogy and realised that all this time they've been homaging the *pre-Genta Seamaster*. Now I think they're great, but all the designs I like are too big. Call it a testament to my own ignorance and the mutability of perception.
> 
> watch addict in recovery


Uhm...what?

I need an explanation here. Did Genta have something to do with the Seamaster?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Uhm...what?
> 
> I need an explanation here. Did Genta have something to do with the Seamaster?


He looked at it. Once. 
The world has never been the same ever since.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> I did a thing. Curse you and your pics, TimeBum!
> 
> Skinny 9015 for under $300.
> 
> ...


I'm assuming you're planning to tear it apart for a mod project. I wouldn't mind having a look at it when you get it, if you'll be in the neighborhood any time soon, or just let me know what you think of it after you do your mad scientist thing to it.

There's another brand I won't name, but I caught some discussion about the inside of the case looking like a high-school kid's effort at bolting go-fast parts onto his Honda Civic - loud muffler, useless spoiler, and bald tires being the lasting impression.

Apparently the internal parts were mis-matched, like the case was originally meant to house a different movement or something, and the brand/factory didn't bother to have any of the parts remade, instead opting to use an additional (crappy-looking, plastic) part to marry everything together.

That whole Ginault/TC discussion - specifically the talk about the unique movement spacer - got me thinking again about internal case assembly.

We've been using a brass movement spacer with tiny tabs and screws that secure the assembly to the case. The spacer is specifically designed to marry the movement to the case. It's not a generic part. It works well, generally, but every so often we'll get a watch with a loose case clamp screw rattling around inside the case.

It's a potential point of failure, from someone not tightening it down all the way during assembly, or one possibly backing itself out because the spacer is just a little small, and there's some tiny amount of movement in the assembly.

That story I told last week, about the guy with not one but two watches in for repair recently? The head of one of his screws actually sheared off. The head got lodged between the spacer and the case, causing the assembly to tilt out of plane, eventually causing the crown stem to snap.

So we're transitioning to a different setup - friction-fitted parts, gaskets instead of screws - which should be more secure, and little to no chance of parts failure causing a problem.

Based on some of that Ginault/TC discussion, apparently with some models of Rolex, there's no spacer, and instead the movement attaches directly to the case? If so, I assume it's pretty slick (because, Rolex), and completely secure.

Again, not naming names, but I've seen at least one instance of a brand screwing a movement directly into a case with no spacer between them, and the results weren't good. The movement and dial assembly flopped around inside like a kid wearing his dad's shoes.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'm assuming you're planning to tear it apart for a mod project. I wouldn't mind having a look at it when you get it, if you'll be in the neighborhood any time soon, or just let me know what you think of it after you do your mad scientist thing to it.
> 
> There's another brand I won't name, but I caught some discussion about the inside of the case looking like a high-school kid's effort at bolting go-fast parts onto his Honda Civic - loud muffler, useless spoiler, and bald tires being the lasting impression.
> 
> ...


I'll take pics before ripping it apart!

FWIW, I like your case assembly. Lots of screws inside a watch case; one will back out or shear sooner or later. Inevitable.

Here's a Seamaster homage:









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

docvail said:


> Uhm...what?
> 
> I need an explanation here. Did Genta have something to do with the Seamaster?


According to the interviews with him and his wife.

https://www.veryimportantwatches.com/files/pdf/creating_desing_rules_en.pdf

http://users.tpg.com.au/mondodec//Gerald_Genta_Designed_Omega_Constellations.pdf

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Yeah, specs are important. This watch is cool as hell, and I'd totally buy one. I'm normally not a huge small seconds fan, but that's an amazing way to do it. Oh, 44mm case and 54mm L2L. Neeeewp. Also, now that I think about it, I wonder if it would sit funny on the wrist if you DON'T wear it with a NATO/Zulu/perlon strap, as that's the whole point of doing the caseback like that.
> 
> View attachment 14305745
> 
> View attachment 14305747


There are certain watches like that, which I view as "statement pieces". You're not going to wear it very often, but if you love it, then you love it, and once in a while is enough.

Ever seen an Angular Momentum?









Public forum regular Gary123 has one. I've seen it in person. It's amazing in every way. It's bigger than a door knob, heavy as a brick, and the bezel lock sticks up like a "suicide handle" on a steering wheel. Gary might be 5'6" and 140 lbs soaking wet. His collection is in - wait for it - sane.

Would I buy one? If I could afford one, probably not, but I love that Martin Pauli makes them, and guys like Gary buy them, because the world needs a certain amount of truly bat$hlt crazy stuff to counterbalance all the flavorless garbage that gets produced.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> View attachment 14305753
> 
> great watch, looked rubbish on almost every strap
> 
> ...


What's the first one?

Is the second one a Hamilton Ventura? That's disappointing to hear.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> Sold my last DevilRay today.
> 
> I think there's one white one left in Hong Kong. Other than that, the only version still available is the DevilFox LE at Watch Wonderland.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I hope you make more or similar watch with Miyota sometimes in the future. My collection is getting out of hand again but I am keeping it all Japanese movements and 1 swiss (Devilray) in order to minimize potential service cost and prolong the need for them

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

illumidata said:


> According to the interviews with him and his wife.
> 
> https://www.veryimportantwatches.com/files/pdf/creating_desing_rules_en.pdf
> 
> ...


Interesting. Thanks for the links.

Without a doubt, Genta is the most revered name in watch design. Justifiably so. I love much of his work, but not all of it. It's ironic that he says he doesn't like watches, but perhaps that explains why some of his designs are so unconventional.

Just skimming the articles, it appears he had a hand in the pre-diver Seamaster dress watch(es) of the early 60's, which were gorgeous, and the 1982 titanium Seamaster Polaris, which is either genius, or one of the ugliest watches I've ever seen, I'm not sure which. At first glance, I hated it, but...it may be growing on me.

Another brand owner once told me that it was actually someone from within the British MOD who designed the late 60's Seamaster which seems to be the foundation for so much of Omega's design language since then.

I don't know if that's true or not, but it would have blown me away to learn Genta designed that one.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> What's the first one?
> 
> Is the second one a Hamilton Ventura? That's disappointing to hear.


1st one, dang, must have linked the wrong pic. It's the seiko "6rmas". The springbar is so far below the nearby case wall, most/all straps look puny and ill-fitting to those lugs.









2nd, yeah, Ventura "elvis 80" version, or somesuch name. Case was so-so (neat concept, near walls, kinda terrible edgework and brushing - transitions between polished andbrushed surfaces were blurry), bracelet was really stiff and butterfly-clasped so sizing was an issue - I didn't get it so sit comfortably on me back then; and the dial / hands looked really plasticky. 
I gave that watch a lot of passes due to the design (imo, it's still a really cool concept and I'd love to have a better-made variation of it), but Hamilton's execution just made me sad after a while.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I hope you make more or similar watch with Miyota sometimes in the future. My collection is getting out of hand again but I am keeping it all Japanese movements and 1 swiss (Devilray) in order to minimize potential service cost and prolong the need for them
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


People have asked if we'll make more of the Tropics and DevilRay.

The STP movements had about a 10% defect rate, at my stage, which is just to say I have no idea how many bad units my factory caught before they shipped to me. They weren't thrilled with STP, and neither was I.

At one point, it seemed like we had a 30% defect rate with the movements in the Tropics. Had we not already been committed to using the STP in the DevilRay, we wouldn't have made the decision to use it again. My factory implemented more rigorous testing, as did we, so we were able to catch a lot more bad units before we shipped to customers.

If we made more of the Tropics, I think we'd almost definitely use the 9015, or maybe another Japanese movement, if Seiko brings out a 9015 killer, and the price-performance profile seems right.

The Tropics case was originally designed to house the 9015 anyway. We were able to fit the thicker STP by deep-dishing the caseback, and moving the crown slightly. If we remade it with the 9015, or a movement with approximately the same costs and dimensions, we could probably keep the costs/prices down by re-jiggering some features - maybe ditching the rubber strap, and the expansion clasp, and simplifying the bracelet design. That might enable us to bring it in for a price similar to the Subs.

The DevilRay was designed to house the thicker STP. The case internals would need to be re-engineered, at a minimum, but the case would still be just as thick, unless we're able to shrink it with a different caseback. I can't imagine that would make much of a difference. The specs and design elements on that one drive the cost higher, regardless of what movement we put in it. Part of the reasoning in using a "Swiss" movement is the simple recognition that the market is willing to pay more for "Swiss", rightly or wrongly.

If we can be assured that STP's gotten their quality under control, we'd consider using them again. If not, perhaps Seiko will come out with a 9015 killer, and its cost/performance justifies a higher price for the DevilRay, because we need to charge more for it if we want to rationalize production.

For now, the XL Sub we've been working on is meant to help fill the gap in our current product line-up, the one left after the DevilRay.

As for the Tropics, even though I think a second production might do okay, I was thinking about doing something completely different instead. Compressor style watches are cool, but I've made them twice, and they don't seem as popular as more traditional style cases.

We've been looking at a design for a "basic 3-hander" off and on for a while, and I was toying with the idea of making something that was sort of a mash-up of the Phantom and vintage Japanese divers, trying to go back and get the case design closer to my original concept for that model, before the case factory engineers got their hands on it.

But there are only so many hours in the day, and for the moment, we seem to be filling all of them with work.

Rusty, Aaron and Dan all work for me part-time. I was looking at hiring a "real" product development team, but the costs were just way too high to justify. Like, insanely high, almost as much as I'm now spending just to run my business each year.

Dan and I have actually been talking about how we can get him doing more work for me, and possibly other brands, as part of a plan to transition him into doing watch work full time. As it is, he's close to maxed out on the work he can do for me, given our current pace of production, and his still having a regular day job.

The point is - between the limited time Rusty and Aaron have available to help with design, and the time Dan and I spend just trying to keep up with what we're already producing, there hasn't been a lot of time or bandwidth for me to focus towards new product development.

We seem to have making 40mm Subs down to a science, but everything else is basically a side-project at this time, and I'll get to it when I get to it, which will only be when I can find or buy the time.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> 1st one, dang, must have linked the wrong pic. It's the seiko "6rmas". The springbar is so far below the nearby case wall, most/all straps look puny and ill-fitting to those lugs.
> 
> View attachment 14306101


Goddamittt!

I have that exact watch, and liked it, but now I know I'll be taking a closer look at it, looking for what's wrong with it.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hehe. Yeah. 
Put a regular-thickness leather strap, smth tapering say 20 to 18/16mm, put it on your wrist, and you'll spot the problem pretty quick


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

docvail said:


> Interesting. Thanks for the links.
> 
> Without a doubt, Genta is the most revered name in watch design. Justifiably so. I love much of his work, but not all of it. It's ironic that he says he doesn't like watches, but perhaps that explains why some of his designs are so unconventional.
> 
> ...


I think he either reused the Polerouter case for the 300 or the guy at the MoD was a huge fan of the one or both. The sword hands and lyre lug case are definitely on the original MoD procurement specification, but that could well have been because the guy with the budget liked omega and had them lined up as a supplier already (knowing how these things work).

I thought what was really interesting about those articles was how different the power dynamics between brands and supply chain was, with the design decisions entirely outsourced to the parts manufacturers.


















Nice SM300 write-up here: https://www.timepiecechronicle.com/features/2017/8/28/in-depth-the-history-of-the-omega-seamaster

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Goddamittt!
> 
> I have that exact watch, and liked it, but now I know I'll be taking a closer look at it, looking for what's wrong with it.


I know the feeling. Don't do it!

I'm purposely going to avoid my Geckota E-01 (which I quite like) for a while. Until I forget about the comments made about it. No sense looking for a reason (however valid) to sour my opinion of it.

I briefly had that Seiko SBDC051. Lovely but the fit was awkward for me. Later handled an SBDC061. Lovely and fit much better. Was very tempted (still am) by SBDC063 with blue bezel. Back then, I had many Seikos and zero NTH Subs. Seemed smarter (less insane) to diversify.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

With sincere apologies to RmacMD, more mesh content.

I looked up mesh bracelets to see if I could get myself interested. Ran across this. Posting as public service for anyone interested. Not trying to wake a dormant discussion.

This mesh from StrapCode looks to have removable links similar to that Breitling bracelet.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Looking at aftermarket bracelets, it occurs to me. Imagine the possibilities that would open up if one could convince oneself that straight end links were OK. Same with quartz. Same with large diameter watches. Same with watches not named for submersible warships. Or whatever one's personal deal breakers are.

(No offense to those more open minded than me who like any of those things.)


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> We've been looking at a design for a "basic 3-hander" off and on for a while, and I was toying with the idea of making something that was sort of a mash-up of the Phantom and vintage Japanese divers, trying to go back and get the case design closer to my original concept for that model, before the case factory engineers got their hands on it.


Either sounds nifty.

The one thing I keep kinda wanting and haven't been able to find to my idiosyncratic satisfaction is something in that "Explorer"-ish category of a robust three-hander that isn't quite an homage to anything in particular. A GADA watch, essentially. I have my Hamilton Jazzmaster but the WR isn't there, and I have the Seiko SNZG but the bracelet is chintzy.

The pieces I really like on the market which all do a neat enough spin on the idea (Ball Fireman Racer, Monta Triumph, Zodiac Jetomatic, Omega Railmaster revamp) are all a bit pricey for my tastes.

I appreciate Lorier taking a stab with the Falcon, but I don't think the "big crown" case design works without the extra bulk of the diving bezel to help balance it.


----------



## jzoo (Jul 13, 2015)

Another watch pic.


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)




----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

3WR said:


> Imagine the possibilities that would open up if one could convince oneself that straight end links were OK.


They tend to look alright with elongated, thin, vintage-y lugs, but few watches are designed that way anymore.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hehe. Yeah.
> Put a regular-thickness leather strap, smth tapering say 20 to 18/16mm, put it on your wrist, and you'll spot the problem pretty quick


We're good. I have it on the stock silicone strap from Seiko, which is amazingly comfortable, and looks good on it.

I'm not really a "strap monger". I mostly wear bracelets, and have one for that Seiko, that I've never worn. I mostly bought it for the eventual day I decide to sell the watch. Anything on a strap ends up staying that way out of laziness towards doing strap changes. Once I put one back on the bracelet, that's usually that. My pace of strap/bracelet changes is glacial.

I actually think it's a fantastic case, which is why I bought it. The problem is the 6r15 movement is too thick, same as the 4r3x movements, so a lot of them end up being pot-bellied, and a little too tall between the lugs, even though the case sides have amazing contours.

My personal mis-step is the Samurai I bought with it. I love the looks of it, but it's just not that comfortable on my wrist. It may be the rubber strap I have on it (not stock) is too stiff. It's a fitted Crafter Blue, which looks awesome, but I just can't get it to fit my wrist right.

The other one is the Citizen Nighthawk. I love them in pictures. Rusty was selling his, so I bought it, and knew right away I was an idiot.

The one that prompted my question about photos tricking you into buying something you don't like is the sales listing for the Oberon on f29. Amazing pics, which really flatter the watch. Of all the Subs designs, that might be my least favorite. And yet, those pics got me thinking how cool it is, and that I might actually want one again.

And, I really don't. Every watch I add to my collection now is stupid, and I really need to start offloading some again, but there's only two or three that I can see letting go.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Either sounds nifty.
> 
> The one thing I keep kinda wanting and haven't been able to find to my idiosyncratic satisfaction is something in that "Explorer"-ish category of a robust three-hander that isn't quite an homage to anything in particular. A GADA watch, essentially. I have my Hamilton Jazzmaster but the WR isn't there, and I have the Seiko SNZG but the bracelet is chintzy.
> 
> ...


There are a few different paths I've contemplated for the development of the 3-hander.

We looked at doing a sort of "tacticool" field watch, to include a version that would be a tribute to my mentor Sgt. Mack, but - A) it's "NTH", and there was nothing overly "vintage inspired" about it, and B) we got distracted with something else before we got too far with it.

There were a couple of particular directions I personally would really like to go in, but, in both cases, again, neither is very vintage-inspired, and both are fundamentally just ideas about improving on a few things I didn't like about some designs I otherwise liked very much, and other than those things, I wouldn't change anything, ideally.

The problem there, aside from the not-being-vintage-inspired, is the obvious homageyness of it, when you're basically doing a 1:1 reproduction, or, if you try not to, you end up changing the very things which made the original so desirable.

The last idea was basically to do something inspired by the likes of the Explorer or Tudor Ranger, which is somewhat obvious, and has been done to death.

Meanwhile, someone I know has been working towards the launch of his own brand, and has what I believe are some solid designs in that vein, and the last time I thought about all of this, I was thinking about a completely new and different direction, so my current thinking is to - A) keep making 40mm Subs as quickly as the market will absorb them, B) keep working on the new L/XL Sub, because it needs more work, and C) let my friend offer everyone the watch they wanted NTH to make, but I wasn't ready to make.



Agent Sands said:


> They tend to look alright with elongated, thin, vintage-y lugs, but few watches are designed that way anymore.


They can also look good when you have a watch with shorter lugs, and a straight rather than curved surface between them. Think about the "Hooper" style of diver, with those sorts of case footprints.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> The one that prompted my question about photos tricking you into buying something you don't like is the sales listing for the Oberon on f29. Amazing pics, which really flatter the watch. Of all the Subs designs, that might be my least favorite. And yet, those pics got me thinking how cool it is, and that I might actually want one again.
> 
> ...


You are a man of the people. What an interesting reversal of roles to hear you wrestling with a purchase decision about one of your own watches.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> There are a few different paths I've contemplated for the development of the 3-hander.
> 
> We looked at doing a sort of "tacticool" field watch, to include a version that would be a tribute to my mentor Sgt. Mack, but - A) it's "NTH", and there was nothing overly "vintage inspired" about it, and B) we got distracted with something else before we got too far with it.


I wouldn't get too tied to the NTH/nod-to-history thing. The NTH name is flexible enough to include original concepts. A cool watch is a cool watch.

Anyway, because I think of the Bahia as being 'tacticool," I just imagined a non-diver with the Bahia dial and handset, and it looks so cool in my mind that it approaches "shut up and take my money" territory.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Agent Sands said:


> Either sounds nifty.
> 
> The one thing I keep kinda wanting and haven't been able to find to my idiosyncratic satisfaction is something in that "Explorer"-ish category of a robust three-hander that isn't quite an homage to anything in particular. A GADA watch, essentially. I have my Hamilton Jazzmaster but the WR isn't there, and I have the Seiko SNZG but the bracelet is chintzy.
> 
> ...


I thought Nodus Contrail 39 might be a good one in that category but I didn't like it in person. I think in part due to the same thing you said about Lorier Falcon.

If automatic isn't a requirement, Citizen PMD56-2952 might be of interest. Well, maybe more field than explorer. It doesn't have 3-6-9 on the dial.















Not my photos.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> ..... when you're basically doing a 1:1 reproduction, or, if you try not to, you end up changing the very things which made the original so desirable.....


That right there might be the million dollar "problem" with most watches lately. If someone gets too close to the icon, then it's a knockoff. If they don't then it's not comfortable, practical, etc...

That what I like about the NTH subs. No one has yet to confuse mine with a Rolex, but it's one of my most comfortable watches.

And funny you would mention the Oberon. I wore the prototype for a bit, and I've always regretted not buying one. I really liked that watch.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

illumidata said:


> True story: I hated the Steinhart straight lugs until I saw the Omega 1957 trilogy and realised that all this time they've been homaging the pre-Genta Seamaster. Now I think they're great, but all the designs I like are too big. Call it a testament to my own ignorance and the mutability of perception.
> 
> watch addict in recovery


I just dislike them cause they don't sit well on my wrist. I'd love to believe that Steinhart are cleverly homaging a Seamaster, but I just don't believe it. I reckon they picked a stock casing design and just are too stubborn to change it....... b-)


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Yeah, I probably butchered that question...never mind, after a night's sleep, I realize what I was saying might have been stupidly obvious.


Thought it was a fair question, but then you're asking a bunch of people that have a relatively unhealthy obsession with watches and the likely responses are going to be skewed......


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

3WR said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > Either sounds nifty.
> ...


The Nodus... Yeah, I dunno. Something about the proportions there just don't work for me.

The Citizen was on my radar but I've just come to realize that I'm mechanical guy and that I'm inevitably going to flip any quartz watch I buy, no matter how cool it is.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Citizen has homages to the Vanguard Blue and the Vanguard Hot Mess.

Joking aside, check out the finish on the bezel insert. If the renders are accurate, it's the first time I recall seeing an NTH looking insert anywhere else.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> There are certain watches like that, which I view as "statement pieces". You're not going to wear it very often, but if you love it, then you love it, and once in a while is enough.
> 
> Ever seen an Angular Momentum?


I'm definitely willing to go over my real limit of case size, which is around 48mm if it's a watch that I really love. My SDGC017 at 49mm is too big for me, but because of the way the lugs arc down, it sort of hides that enough that I feel like I can just about get away with it. I also never wear it on the bracelet, which helps. As much as I love the 60ATM Squalematic though, at 51mm it would look _ridiculous_ on my wrist.

That Ianos would look like this on me:


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Citizen has homages to the Vanguard Blue and the Vanguard Hot Mess.
> 
> Joking aside, check out the finish on the bezel insert. If the renders are accurate, it's the first time I recall seeing an NTH looking insert anywhere else.


Pretty much every time I see a Citizen: "hey that's kind of interesti - oh. Eco-drive. Pass." If you want to know what 90% depreciation from new feels like, buy any Citizen Eco-drive watch, and then try and sell it.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Hornet99 said:


> I just dislike them cause they don't sit well on my wrist. I'd love to believe that Steinhart are cleverly homaging a Seamaster, but I just don't believe it. I reckon they picked a stock casing design and just are too stubborn to change it....... b-)


That sounds much more plausible, so much for my fevered imaginings 

Maybe in Steinhart land 8 inch wrists are the norm.

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I'm going to buy the first watch actually named the Vanguard Hot Mess. Seriously.


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

Woohoo! I can finally get that gilted dial!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Pretty much every time I see a Citizen: "hey that's kind of interesti - oh. Eco-drive. Pass." If you want to know what 90% depreciation from new feels like, buy any Citizen Eco-drive watch, and then try and sell it.


And don't drop one....I have had 3 not survive tough use. They never worked again.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

illumidata said:


> That sounds much more plausible, so much for my fevered imaginings
> 
> Maybe in Steinhart land 8 inch wrists are the norm.
> 
> Watch Addict In Recovery


This 7.5inch wrist works just fine with 6 Steinharts here


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

docvail said:


> There are a few different paths I've contemplated for the development of the 3-hander.
> 
> We looked at doing a sort of "tacticool" field watch, to include a version that would be a tribute to my mentor Sgt. Mack, but - A) it's "NTH", and there was nothing overly "vintage inspired" about it, and B) we got distracted with something else before we got too far with it.
> 
> ...


This has all been said before at different points, I'm just consolidating...

I'm fairly convinced the next undiscovered frontier is a range of sport dress watches a la Cerberus design philosophy (which was and would still be so much fresher than anything around at the time). You could even keep the sub case as it's such a winner, just go for bezel / dial combos and cues from old dress, field and pilots and blitzkrieg it like you did the sub market (it probably didn't feel like it at the time but I'm sure there's a similar level of pent up demand and your customer base has grown exponentially).

That's something I'd love to see, all the awesome themed design variations from the subs and all those different uses of exotic materials applied in a slightly different context, where the emphasis shifts towards elegance rather than ruggedness and play of light rather than contrast and visibility.

You know you want to.



Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> Pretty much every time I see a Citizen: "hey that's kind of interesti - oh. Eco-drive. Pass." If you want to know what 90% depreciation from new feels like, buy any Citizen Eco-drive watch, and then try and sell it.


Of course there are exceptions to that rule. Try picking up on of the new Chronomasters on the cheap 😋

Even the PMD56 that 3WR posted retain their value pretty well, I saved a bit off the sticker price when I picked up my gently used green dial version, but not as much as I'd have liked. Following an auction today for an earlier blue dial version, but that's one where I'm hoping depreciation is on my side!

I prefer autos myself too, and don't like overlap in my watchbox. But on the older blue version the Arabics and stick indices are reversed so it's different enough for me, and these Citizens are as good as quartz get IMO (solar plus perpetual calendar, the ultimate grab and go).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> You are a man of the people. What an interesting reversal of roles to hear you wrestling with a purchase decision about one of your own watches.


Worse than that.

I wasn't thinking about buying that ONE watch. I started thinking we should make FIFTY more.

I mean...one watch I don't need, I can survive pretty easily. String together a few too many bad decisions about how many of this or that model to make, pretty soon I'll need to sell all my personal watches for rent money.

We're working on a plan to right-size/just-in-time production and assembly, so hopefully the day when I can just make 10-20 pieces of something again isn't too far away.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Thought it was a fair question, but then you're asking a bunch of people that have a relatively unhealthy obsession with watches and the likely responses are going to be skewed......


Fair enough, but your answer, while not sounding as if it meant to be snarky, made it clear enough how much of a "duh" question I asked.

I mean, you're right, probably 90% of the watches people in this forum buy are purchased online, without having first seen one in person, so in that way, yeah, there are probably a lot of purchases made based on watches that look better in photos than they look/feel in person.

My question was more retrospective. Like, are there watches you already KNOW you don't like, but someone's really good photo makes you forget you don't like them, and start thinking you like them?

I had an Oberon prototype. I never wore it. I ended up having it modded. If I wanted one, I'd have one already. What in God's name would I be doing looking at one and thinking, "hmph, I wouldn't mind having one of those. Nice looking piece of kit. We ought to order another 50, yesterday..."?

It's something I've caught myself doing a few times, looking at a really well-done photo, admiring the watch, then realizing I really don't like the watch, at all, it's just a really well-done photo.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Citizen has homages to the Vanguard Blue and the Vanguard Hot Mess.
> 
> Joking aside, check out the finish on the bezel insert. If the renders are accurate, it's the first time I recall seeing an NTH looking insert anywhere else.
> 
> ...


I don't know if he's still a regular in these parts, but there used to be a guy here with the user name "ThisEndUp".

Lots of guys have oddball usernames (looking you right in the eye, 3WR), but in one of those threads about all the things WIS hate in a watch, someone said "dials with no numbers except 12", to which he replied, "yeah, it's like the designer's way of saying, 'This end up', and why that's my user name [insert a more amusing anecdote he told about it]."

That never bothered me before he mentioned it. Now I can't stand it.

You're all welcome, if you now start hating it too...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ian_61 said:


> Of course there are exceptions to that rule. Try picking up on of the new Chronomasters on the cheap &#55357;&#56843;
> 
> Even the PMD56 that 3WR posted retain their value pretty well, I saved a bit off the sticker price when I picked up my gently used green dial version, but not as much as I'd have liked. Following an auction today for an earlier blue dial version, but that's one where I'm hoping depreciation is on my side!
> 
> I prefer autos myself too, and don't like overlap in my watchbox. But on the older blue version the Arabics and stick indices are reversed so it's different enough for me, and these Citizens are as good as quartz get IMO (solar plus perpetual calendar, the ultimate grab and go).


Wow, the CTQ57-0933 is basically a first gen Omega A-T copied with tracing paper.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ewhulbert said:


> Woohoo! I can finally get that gilted dial!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry to disappoint you my friend, but it isn't.

I've been working behind the scenes on the website. We've been struggling to manage a lot of moving parts - what's available now on the NTH site versus a retailer's site, what's sold out, coming soon, sold out here but not everywhere, etc.

I installed a new app called "Coming Soon" (best app name ever!), but some of the custom-coding we had done on the back-end of the site wasn't getting along with the app, so I basically spent most of yesterday and today working out the kinks.

There's no Barracudas available anywhere at this time. Best bet is to get on a retailer's wait list. They've already reserved every piece from the next release.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Sorry to disappoint you my friend, but it isn't.
> 
> I've been working behind the scenes on the website. We've been struggling to manage a lot of moving parts - what's available now on the NTH site versus a retailer's site, what's sold out, coming soon, sold out here but not everywhere, etc.
> 
> ...


This is what I mean...









The new app adds "Coming Soon" badges to any product we designate as "Coming Soon" (duh). We can also add a projected availability date, which is nice.

But the app messes with the inventory settings in the website, which in turn affect other functionality I had built in. Observe...

The Odin is still available from some stores, but not the NTH website, where it's sold out. We've also got more coming, but want to make sure that people who land on that product page are prompted to go and check retailers' sites, so this is how that product page looks:









Not yet "perfect", but at least as far as having all the right buttons in place, we're getting there. It says "Coming Soon", with a projected date, but also says to check retailers, and if you click that button, it'll take you to the page on our site where retailers' sites are listed. Or, if you simply must buy from NTH, and no one else, you click that Notify Me button, and we'll notify you when we get them in again.

But...what if we know for sure we're not going to have any inventory on a model (like the Barracuda Vintage Black), or if we don't know yet (like with the new models)? I don't want people keying in on the "Notify Me" button, so that's got to go. But with the new models, I know my retailers aren't all going to have the new models set up in their stores yet, so I don't necessarily want anyone going there yet, either.

We're still working out how to get the system set up right, but for now, this is what the new products' pages look like.









Good enough for now. It has the projected availability date, but doesn't do anything else.

What about the Barracuda?

We know we're not going to have any on our site, so we definitely don't want the "Notify" me button to show. We definitely want people to go talk to the retailers.

What's that page look like?

Well...we got the buttons figured out, but....









This $hlt has been driving me batty for the last two days.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PS - It's even worse that all that.

Any time you add any product to the list of "Coming Soon" products, and hit "save", the app overrides all the inventory settings for ALL products marked as Coming Soon, which changes how everything is displayed on the site, forcing me to go back into each product (including date/no-date options) and revert the settings manually. 

The old website wasn't as nice-looking or as slick-feeling as the current site, but the back-end was much better. The difference in back-ends is like the difference between NASA mission control and Wonka's Chocolate factory. I went from "the Right Stuff" to "Oompa-Loompa, Doopity-do" over here.

Such a PITA.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...My question was more retrospective. Like, are there watches you already KNOW you don't like, but someone's really good photo makes you forget you don't like them, and start thinking you like them?


Yep. Rolex SS Sub Date.

I bought one 15 years ago when I first got into mech watches. I sold it a few years later because I realized it wasn't for me. I've never wished I still had it. But then I see some of the stunning photos Rolex (and others) post, and I start to think that it's a good looking watch, and maybe I should reconsider...

Doc Savage


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> Wow, the CTQ57-0933 is basically a first gen Omega A-T copied with tracing paper.


I don't know if this homages anything, and it wouldn't bother me if it does. I might be at risk of relinquishing my WIS card in saying this, but I'd take a washi paper dial over a GS snowflake any day!


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

You had me at Oompa-Loompa...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Ian_61 said:


> I don't know if this homages anything, and it wouldn't bother me if it does. I might be at risk of relinquishing my WIS card in saying this, but I'd take a washi paper dial over a GS snowflake any day!
> 
> View attachment 14307435


That right there is an excellent example of a photo of a watch making me want to buy that watch even tho I know that I would not like it irl at all.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

So 16 August is what we look for the next round. Gotcha.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

I bought this ....







after seeing this photo








I have worn it almost every single day since I bought it 18 months ago. Never a regret.

Now I have the itch for another watch and mostly likely than not it will be another diver. Leading candidates, all base on photographs, are the Alpina Seastrong, Alpina Seastrong Diver Heritage, Archimede Sporttaucher A, Dan Henry 1970 44mm Grey, Gavox Avidiver, the Gruppo Gamma Diver Master, Mido Ocean Star, and the Tsao Torsk Diver. NTH Odin, Skipjack, the new Vanguard and Tikuna are possibilities, but l like 42-44mm size watches.

Even though I've never regretted buying the Magrette, I have decided to wait till the District Time watch show in October so I can actually see and try on some of the watches above. I got lucky once and I'm not sure if I want to tempt Fate again. Who knows, maybe a 40mm NTH Sub is in my future.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> Lots of guys have oddball usernames (looking you right in the eye, 3WR),
> ...


Well isn't that rich? Your user name is strong, I grant you that. But mine is no worse than many others hanging around here. Short. Simple. Doesn't make you struggle to divine the pronunciation.

Years ago, I needed an account for the sole purpose of responding to a for sale posting. Didn't give the name much thought. I think it actually has an elegant simplicity to it if you knew where it came from. But it would be more fun to make up a better story. So "3 Watch Rotation", "3 World Records", "3 Warrants Reported". I'll have to work on it.

And get this. The watch I created my account to buy was the very Citizen I mentioned today. To commemorate that occasion and to celebrate my user name, I've retrieved the watch, synced it with my Japan radio time signal transmitter app, fine tuned the bracelet fit with the adjust-it-while-on-the-wrist adjustable clasp (how ya like them apples, Glide Lock?) and am currently admiring the crisp movement of the seconds hand and the supreme legibility of time, day and date.














Not my photo


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Pretty much every time I see a Citizen: "hey that's kind of interesti - oh. Eco-drive. Pass." If you want to know what 90% depreciation from new feels like, buy any Citizen Eco-drive watch, and then try and sell it.


I hear you and prefer mechanicals, too.

Citizen churns out a lot of junky watches for the masses. But some are OK. Ones with extra features that make clever use of the hands are kind of neat. Like using the seconds hand to point to a spot on the dial to indicate status of radio reception or whatever. Or ones where the hour hand can adjust itself independently of the minutes hand. Or ones where a button can cause all hands to park themselves up to 12 o'clock so as not to obscure something going on with sub dials. Unfortunately, the ones with all the cool features are usually huge.

Also, Eco-Drive has a little bit of the symbiotic relationship that we enjoy with automatics. The watch is relying on me to expose it to light - at least once in a great while - to keep it alive. So its not as bad as a normal quartz watch that is always dying a slow death on your wrist no matter what you do.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

3WR said:


> I hear you and prefer mechanicals, too.
> 
> Citizen churns out a lot of junky watches for the masses. But some are OK. Ones with extra features that make clever use of the hands are kind of neat. Like using the seconds hand to point to a spot on the dial to indicate status of radio reception or whatever. Or ones where the hour hand can adjust itself independently of the minutes hand. Or ones where a button can cause all hands to park themselves up to 12 o'clock so as not to obscure something going on with sub dials. Unfortunately, the ones with all the cool features are usually huge.
> 
> Also, Eco-Drive has a little bit of the symbiotic relationship that we enjoy with automatics. The watch is relying on me to expose it to light - at least once in a great while - to keep it alive. So its not as bad as a normal quartz watch that is always dying a slow death on your wrist no matter what you do.












The occasionally over the top


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

MikeCfromLI said:


> The occasionally over the top


Over the top indeed. You have to hand it to them for being bold and original. I handled one of those recently. Too massive/tall for me to ever wear.

I prefer the Orca. I can wear that one. Saw a guy (American, I think) wearing one in an airport in Italy. Besides mine, that's the only other one I've ever seen in person.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

3WR said:


> Over the top indeed. You have to hand it to them for being bold and original. I handled one of those recently. Too massive/tall for me to ever wear.
> 
> I prefer the Orca. I can wear that one. Saw a guy (American, I think) wearing one in an airport in Italy. Besides mine, that's the only other one I've ever seen in person.
> 
> ...


I like the orca haven't seen one pop up in a while I picked the Zilla on the cheap as a beater


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Fair enough, but your answer, while not sounding as if it meant to be snarky, made it clear enough how much of a "duh" question I asked.
> 
> I mean, you're right, probably 90% of the watches people in this forum buy are purchased online, without having first seen one in person, so in that way, yeah, there are probably a lot of purchases made based on watches that look better in photos than they look/feel in person.
> 
> ...


I think that the number of Steinharts, Seikos and Squales that I bought are testament to the same madness, e.g. had it in hand, didn't like it, sold it, saw it on the Web and bought it again. Blame nice photos.......

I have had at least x4 Steinharts (42mm ocean one versions), x5 Seiko Turtles (I just love the look, but it's stupid on the wrist), x4 Squale 42mm 30 Atmos, x3 Squale 20 Atmos and none of them have survived......

I was going to mention the 3 gen 1 NTH subs I had, but eventually I got the grail of the Barracuda Vintage Black and that's not getting sold........


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> I hear you and prefer mechanicals, too.
> 
> Citizen churns out a lot of junky watches for the masses. But some are OK. Ones with extra features that make clever use of the hands are kind of neat. Like using the seconds hand to point to a spot on the dial to indicate status of radio reception or whatever. Or ones where the hour hand can adjust itself independently of the minutes hand. Or ones where a button can cause all hands to park themselves up to 12 o'clock so as not to obscure something going on with sub dials. Unfortunately, the ones with all the cool features are usually huge.
> 
> Also, Eco-Drive has a little bit of the symbiotic relationship that we enjoy with automatics. The watch is relying on me to expose it to light - at least once in a great while - to keep it alive. So its not as bad as a normal quartz watch that is always dying a slow death on your wrist no matter what you do.


Both of the ones I had did those sorts of tricks. The first was an A-T World Timer that I bought because I had some credit at a jewelry store, and they only carried Citizen and Hamilton. At the time I hadn't worn a watch for a number of years, and knew nothing about them. The A-T was a highly unusual chronograph in that there was no running seconds sub dial. The main second hand normally indicated time, and then would move to the 12 position when you engaged the chronograph function, with a .10 second subdial because it was a 1-beat second hand. Its party trick was that after you were done using the chronograph function, the second hand returned to where it _would've been_ on the dial had you not borrowed it for something else. Not even a Rattrapante can do that. The other one was a JDM Attesa titanium chrono, which is basically Citizen's answer to Seiko's Brightz watches. It had a 5-beat mecaquartz style movement and a more normal running seconds. The A-T world timer cost something like $650 new, and sold for like $93. Not even a hundred bucks.

The JDM import was something like $1500 list. I got mine slightly used from a Japanese importer on eBay for somewhere around $700, so I was marginally less annoyed when it "only" lost half of what I paid for it.


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

docvail said:


> Sorry to disappoint you my friend, but it isn't.
> 
> .
> 
> There's no Barracudas available anywhere at this time. Best bet is to get on a retailer's wait list. They've already reserved every piece from the next release.


I took it to mean that new inventory was being sent to the retailers on/about July 26. Is that not the case? Happy to go through a retailer or whatnot, just was excited that new production was finally going through. Is that not the case?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

illumidata said:


> I'm fairly convinced the next undiscovered frontier is a range of sport dress watches a la Cerberus design philosophy (which was and would still be so much fresher than anything around at the time). You could even keep the sub case as it's such a winner, just go for bezel / dial combos and cues from old dress, field and pilots and blitzkrieg it like you did the sub market (it probably didn't feel like it at the time but I'm sure there's a similar level of pent up demand and your customer base has grown exponentially).
> 
> That's something I'd love to see, all the awesome themed design variations from the subs and all those different uses of exotic materials applied in a slightly different context, where the emphasis shifts towards elegance rather than ruggedness and play of light rather than contrast and visibility.


The black tie Cerb makes me drool every time I see it.

I'd love to see such a three-hander NTH line like you describe but have no idea whether it's actually worth the investment or not. I suspect the demand would be slightly less than that for the subs, even if, personally, I'd (probably?) be more inclined to the three-hander line.

Divers are the kings of the moment and I think you see that for almost every major brand. The Submariner and its cousins will always outsell the Explorer and the Milgauss. The SMPs and Planet Oceans are always gonna outsell the Aqua Terras and the Railmasters.

I do think there's an interesting trend in the watch world, and that's the near-total death of the actual dress watch in favor of sports models outside of the haute horlogerie segment. Rolex learned this the hard way when its revamped Cellini line faceplanted; as far as the world is concerned, its sport models *are* dress watches.

This is why I chuckle whenever I see a "can I wear my diver with my tux" thread. Nobody outside of these internet forums cares. Formality, as a cultural concept, is dead.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Or at least adapted. Formality of the 1940s, 1920s, 1900s doesn't apply, same as how formality of the 500 b.c. doesn't apply.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Or at least adapted. Formality of the 1940s, 1920s, 1900s doesn't apply, same as how formality of the 500 b.c. doesn't apply.


It's more than just adapted. "Formality" demands social codes, codes that extend from a culture with clear structure and cultural arbiters. This is why "formality" as a cultural concept extended from monarchical cultural and government systems.

The remnants of that exist in some places in our world, but it's mostly been wholly overturned in places like America. To the extent America has an aristocracy, it's not a defined one with a clear playbook.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Two on a tropic... I would say the CNS tropics are good for the price..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> I bought this ....
> View attachment 14307565
> 
> after seeing this photo
> ...


Magrette always has great photography.

Seen them in person. Great watches. Too big on my wrist.

Not exactly the same thing I was talking about, because even in person, they're still great looking, and I still like them, they're just too big on me.

Now, if someone else bought one, then realized they really didn't like the way it looked, and was tricked by the photo quality...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ewhulbert said:


> I took it to mean that new inventory was being sent to the retailers on/about July 26. Is that not the case? Happy to go through a retailer or whatnot, just was excited that new production was finally going through. Is that not the case?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, yes, sorry if I was confusing you.

I thought you got an email alert because I'd "added inventory" we don't really have, as I was trying to dial in the system settings.

My best estimate as of now is that we'll have the next batch for sale on or around the 26th.

But...are you on a retailer's wait list? Because from what I hear, they're all seeing tremendous demand.


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

I shot watch gauge a note, haven't heard back yet. I'll give them a call today or Monday. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

ewhulbert said:


> I shot watch gauge a note, haven't heard back yet. I'll give them a call today or Monday.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You might have to check with some of the non-US retailers, tbh. They might have less ppl in the line - watchgauge seems to be fairly well known for selling the subs, thanks to various youtube exposures.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ewhulbert said:


> I shot watch gauge a note, haven't heard back yet. I'll give them a call today or Monday.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's Sunday. Maybe wait until he's had a chance to reply. He's away from the office this coming week, but should be responding to messages.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Thanks for the picture of the Skipjack and Barracuda side by side like that. I've been wrestling with which of those two I want for a while. I think I like the Barracuda more purely based on looks, but the Skipjack is just cooler. I think Skipjack gets the nod, but boy is it close. 

Re: three handers. I'm sure there's more to it, but that Nacken (I think) that that fellow modded to take off the bezel looked really cool. I don't know if that would sell, and I'm sure it's harder than just popping bezels off of a sub case, but anyway.

I know, Doc, you've said that making a GMT has some obstacles for you, but Squale can't keep that new Pepsi in stock. I can't help but believe that if/when you go with a sub GMT you're going to have trouble spending all the money you bring in.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

GMT functionality is conceptually cool and I like how it informs watch designs (the Bulova Accutron Astronaut is an insanely cool design), and demand for 'em seems to be substantial (the Rolex effect, mebbe?), but I do really question the usefulness of the compilation. 

And I say that as a guy whose day gig requires him to regularly think about different time zones.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Same here with the time zone thing. I've never owned a GMT, but if I had extra buckets of money laying around I'd certainly give one a try. 

They seem to be enormously popular and models that resemble the Rolex seem to fly off the shelf. I mean, even if you want and can afford the Rolex there are some challenges to acquiring one that have been well-discussed on the forums. It seems like there's never been a better time to have a homage to one in your watch company's lineup.

I wouldn't have hesitated to pick up the Squale if I was in the market for a watch like that. I think NTH has the credibility to win big in this area, too.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I personally love GMTs, proper and poor man's.




























For me, it's pleasing to be able to simultaneously track a loved one abroad's time, and it's an excuse to rely more on my watch when I travel. (Necessary, no, but just a good excuse to fiddle with it and look at it more.)

But complications are divisive. Some will love a given complication and others will feel "meh" about it.

Doc:

During your next microbrand owner seminar, please kindly tell folks contemplating a GMT to purge themselves of the urge to use a unidirectional bezel, unless it's a dive bezel insert with secondary 24 hour markings on the dial.










vs










I appreciate that it's not that much more effort to use a unidirectional GMT bezel.

Nevertheless, please tell them to cease and desist the unidirectional urge many seem to have, barring the exception I noted.

While you're at it, might as well tell them to get the number of clicks right on the bidirectional bezel too.

(Elshan goofed a bit on this with the Horizons above.)

Just some friendly suggestions from a non-owner, non-engineer 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

liquidtension said:


> Two on a tropic... I would say the CNS tropics are good for the price..


Cool watches and straps.

This is the type of photo that is helpful to inform purchase decisions. I think the beautiful studio shots of the Barracuda at just the right angle with just the right lighting elevate its look more than other models.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I personally love GMTs, proper and poor man's.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Cool GMTs. I didn't know Crafter Blue made leather straps. Very interesting. Do you like it?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't have any plans for a GMT.

I'm not even thinking about making plans.

When a Japanese movement supplier has a GMT movement that works like Rolex's, doesn't cost as much as the ETA 2893-2, is available for me to buy in bulk, and has proven to be reliable, THEN, I might make a GMT.

Until then, there are no good choices that I'd consider, and so there will be no GMT from me.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yep. And how long has the GMT trend been going? It's getting ripe for being upstaged and getting stale, just like bronze cases...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I just used a Seiko GMT for a week abroad and it worked a charm, I'm still sold on the idea.

However, it's a discontinued and appreciating SBQJ017 with the 8f56 movement, not mechanical. Otherwise, perpetual calendar, "true" hour hand adjustment, Ti case, sapphire, 10yr battery life, +/-20spy... not a lot not to like. And it looks fantastic.









The ETA movement based watches with "businessman's" adjustable GMT hand is fine, but I do like the traveler's adjustment better when traveling.

But FWIW, I don't, and no one I know, travels further than 12 tzs in either direction, so a simple 12hr bezel suits most needs, either traveling or keeping track of someone somewhere else.

So yeah, I'm just thrilled that NTH is releasing not one, but TWO 12hr bezel models this season. Now I just have to figure out which one gets the nod...


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> I don't have any plans for a GMT.
> 
> I'm not even thinking about making plans.
> 
> ...


Not going to lie, seeing this is kind of disappointing but understandable. My orient GMT hasn't had any problems but I'm not sure about the price/availability of the movement.


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> I don't have any plans for a GMT.
> 
> I'm not even thinking about making plans.
> 
> ...


Not going to lie, seeing this is kind of disappointing but understandable. My orient GMT hasn't had any problems but I'm not sure about the price/availability of the movement.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

As far as I've heard, Orient does NOT make any of their movements available to any OEMs.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yep. And how long has the GMT trend been going? It's getting ripe for being upstaged and getting stale, just like bronze cases...


Yeah, it seems like we're at Peak GMT. I dunno if it'll get stale--it's a classic complication and the Rolex GMTs have been desirable for as long as they've been around--but there's a lot of competition at the moment in the microbrand space.

Speaking of GMTs, I did pick up a Parnis GMT recently. It was a late-night impulse buy that I wholeheartedly regret. It's good-looking garbage that looks expensive at first glance but shows lot of shortcuts taken all over. The rotor was unbearably loud so I took it off the movement and turned it into a handwind-only, which wouldn't be so bad if the screw-down crown was machined well, but it ain't.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

MikeyT said:


> As far as I've heard, Orient does NOT make any of their movements available to any OEMs.


This would be less frustrating to me if Orient could build watches that were as attractive as their movements are durable, but Orient is astonishingly consistent in the awkwardness of its watch designs.


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

My son is moving to Australia at the end of the month... finally a LEGITIMATE reason to have an at a glance watch to see what time it is ( somewhere else ) .. there is a 17 hour difference from my local time.. 
... will be looking for an affordable GMT.. maybe two of ‘em .. one for each if us


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yep. And how long has the GMT trend been going? It's getting ripe for being upstaged and getting stale, just like bronze cases...


This could be read as sincere or sarcastic, and it would play the same either way...



mconlonx said:


> I'm just thrilled that NTH is releasing not one, but TWO 12hr bezel models this season. Now I just have to figure out which one gets the nod...


The Vanguard was meant to be more "dressy diver", whereas the Commando is more tacticool, FWIW.



Mr_Finer_Things said:


> Not going to lie, seeing this is kind of disappointing but understandable. My orient GMT hasn't had any problems but I'm not sure about the price/availability of the movement.


As a rule, they don't wholesale their mechanical movements, only their quartz movements. The only exception I'm aware of is a mechanical movement from Orient, used by Vostok Europe. I was told the guy who runs VE is amigos with Orient, so that's how that happened.



MikeyT said:


> As far as I've heard, Orient does NOT make any of their movements available to any OEMs.


Just the quartz movements, not the mechanical, and I'm not even sure if it's all their quartz movements.

They had a booth two spaces down from Seiko at last years HK show. I actually went in to ask if they'd let me buy the GMT, but got shot down.



Agent Sands said:


> Yeah, it seems like we're at Peak GMT. I dunno if it'll get stale--it's a classic complication and the Rolex GMTs have been desirable for as long as they've been around--but there's a lot of competition at the moment in the microbrand space.
> 
> Speaking of GMTs, I did pick up a Parnis GMT recently. It was a late-night impulse buy that I wholeheartedly regret. It's good-looking garbage that looks expensive at first glance but shows lot of shortcuts taken all over. The rotor was unbearably loud so I took it off the movement and turned it into a handwind-only, which wouldn't be so bad if the screw-down crown was machined well, but it ain't.


I know at least two guys who own the Rolex GMT with the black bezel and green GMT hand simply because that was the one design they liked best. They don't need a GMT otherwise.



Agent Sands said:


> This would be less frustrating to me if Orient could build watches that were as attractive as their movements are durable, but Orient is astonishingly consistent in the awkwardness of its watch designs.


I'm trying to think of an Orient I've really loved, but can't come up with one. They all seem to stop somewhere around 80% of being desirable, which just ain't enough.

---

I'm sure I've done this before, but I don't mind going over old ground when the discussion comes back to a topic. Here's the rundown on GMT movements...

Miyota - nothing affordable and mechanical.

Seiko - ditto the above.

Orient - doesn't sell their mechanical movements.

China - Bwahahahahahhahahahahahahaha! No. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

ETA 2836-2 - Not sold directly from ETA as a GMT. It's actually a day/date conversion to a GMT. I know Leschot has or had them. I'm not sure who else. A lot of internet discussion would suggest they're actually Chinese, and I don't mean Chinese parts assembled in Switzerland, I mean legit Chinese. I don't think that's right. I think there are Swiss vendors who sell them, or at least, sold them, before ETA started restricting supply of the base 2836-2 calibre.

Assuming you could still get them - I've heard at least one brand owner say he heard reports of reliability problems with them, due to the conversion. I've heard another say that's BS. I really don't know. But, I do know they're more expensive than the 2824-2, and thicker than the 9015, so they wouldn't fit into the NTH Subs case. They'd need their own case.

What's interesting to me about them is that if you compare their operation to the more upscale 2893-2, I think they actually offer a better solution for someone who is actually traveling, in that the main hour hand can be quick-set, unlike the 2893-2, where only the GMT hand can be quick-set.

ETA 2893-2 - Thin, reliable, as far as I know, but not cheap, if you can even get them. The biggest problem is listening to GMT-geeks whine that the GMT hand is the quickset, not the main hour. And, you're talking about a ~$1,000 NTH. I'm not seeing that the market appetite for $1000 GMT's from microbrands is all that strong.

Sellita? I don't even know. Do they make a GMT? Probably. I know Alpina did their own "in-house" day/date conversion with the SW200, so I'm guessing Sellita doesn't make a "2836-2 GMT", but probably makes a SW300 (2893-2) version. My hunch would be it's not quite as good as the ETA.

STP - After my experience with the STP1-11, I'm not sure I'd buy one if they had one. Surprisingly, when I spoke directly to my contact at STP, and suggested they could do a GMT conversion on their own day/date, I was told - I $hlt you not - that they don't see the business opportunity in developing a GMT, which is just insane, if you look at their website and see the bat$hlt-crazy stuff they actually DID develop and are trying to sell...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkLH said:


> My son is moving to Australia at the end of the month... finally a LEGITIMATE reason to have an at a glance watch to see what time it is ( somewhere else ) .. there is a 17 hour difference from my local time..
> ... will be looking for an affordable GMT.. maybe two of 'em .. one for each if us


12 hour bezel.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Cool GMTs. I didn't know Crafter Blue made leather straps. Very interesting. Do you like it?


Thanks.

I do.

I was grabbing a case-fitting rubber strap from them when I noticed their case-fitting leather options, which looked great in pictures, so I picked one up as well.

It's a high quality strap, like everything from them that I've tried to date.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> I know at least two guys who own the Rolex GMT with the black bezel and green GMT hand simply because that was the one design they liked best. They don't need a GMT otherwise.


That's the thing. The Rolex GMT is just a Submariner (which, classic though it is, looks a bit austere) with a splash of color. That's why it became THE Rolex to have. It's a Sub with a bit more personality.



docvail said:


> I'm trying to think of an Orient I've really loved, but can't come up with one. They all seem to stop somewhere around 80% of being desirable, which just ain't enough.


I've flirted with picking up a green Kamasu, but I know I'd end up flipping it:










It's solid. But it ain't a *keeper*.


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

docvail said:


> 12 hour bezel.


believe me.. I noted the Vanguard... but not in the budget... ( just got my BVB ) .. and Im thinking two watches.. one for my son too .. possibly the new QTimex.. vintage w pedigree.. Junkers has some affordable GMTs too

Vanguard .. " on the list "


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cruzin









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

MarkLH said:


> believe me.. I noted the Vanguard... but not in the budget... ( just got my BVB ) .. and Im thinking two watches.. one for my son too .. possibly the new QTimex.. vintage w pedigree.. Junkers has some affordable GMTs too
> 
> Vanguard .. " on the list "


I'm on the 12-hour bezel bandwagon. There are no hands to move, or even worse, date to change when you let it wind down. But in the vein of a public service announcement (and since Doc has no intention of making one), look here:

https://www.jomashop.com/mathey-tissot-watch-h902abu.html

One of the cheapest GMTs around, and they look solid, and they're on sale. And I want someone else to buy one, post photos, and tell me what it looks like...


----------



## MarkLH (Apr 13, 2019)

dmjonez said:


> I'm on the 12-hour bezel bandwagon. There are no hands to move, or even worse, date to change when you let it wind down. But in the vein of a public service announcement (and since Doc has no intention of making one), look here:
> 
> https://www.jomashop.com/mathey-tissot-watch-h902abu.html
> 
> One of the cheapest GMTs around, and they look solid, and they're on sale. And I want someone else to buy one, post photos, and tell me what it looks like...


nice lookin watch ! .. you owe it to yourself to get one... and it would be a great service to me before I take the plunge, on TWO GMT's


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> I'm on the 12-hour bezel bandwagon. There are no hands to move, or even worse, date to change when you let it wind down. But in the vein of a public service announcement (and since Doc has no intention of making one), look here:
> 
> https://www.jomashop.com/mathey-tissot-watch-h902abu.html
> 
> One of the cheapest GMTs around, and they look solid, and they're on sale. And I want someone else to buy one, post photos, and tell me what it looks like...


That is a dangerously nice looking photo.

Good strategy. Whoever accepts the mission, please add a linen dial Datejust - I mean "Rolly III Silver Dial Men's Watch" - to the investigation.

https://www.jomashop.com/mathey-tissot-watch-h810ai.html


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

Elshan may have messed up the bezel clicks, but the custom rotor he put on the Zelos Horizon GMT is next level cool in my book.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> I'm on the 12-hour bezel bandwagon. There are no hands to move, or even worse, date to change when you let it wind down. But in the vein of a public service announcement (and since Doc has no intention of making one), look here:
> 
> https://www.jomashop.com/mathey-tissot-watch-h902abu.html
> 
> One of the cheapest GMTs around, and they look solid, and they're on sale. And I want someone else to buy one, post photos, and tell me what it looks like...


Hands so short.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

3WR said:


> That is a dangerously nice looking photo.
> 
> Good strategy. Whoever accepts the mission, please add a linen dial Datejust - I mean "Rolly III Silver Dial Men's Watch" - to the investigation.
> 
> https://www.jomashop.com/mathey-tissot-watch-h810ai.html


They probably fall into Doc's "you ever buy a watch based on the photo, and then regret it?" category. Hard to go wrong, if you're just looking for a cheap quartz, but I'm worried about the "Ali" effect wherein you get one, and it's not quiiiiite what you expected. I've never seen a review or photo other than the ads. A quick Google search turns up an old brand with a storied history, but many like that have been resurrected from the dead just for the name. Supposed to have a Swiss Ronda movement, FWIW

This is the one that confuses me:
https://www.jomashop.com/mathey-tissot-watch-h901atlr.html









For $100 more, you can get an auto and a GMT bezel. Just not a GMT hand to use with it. Huh?


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Interesting comment on the Orient, I think that's about how I feel. I see a model and I'm all like oh yeah awesome at first glance, but then after I really take the time to look at the watch a bit, something is always a bit...off.

I almost pulled the trigger - twice - on the Orient Kano with the red bezel. I'd love to try a red (well, burgundy) bezel diver. But that date thing, the two lines, just doesn't work for me. The size is just a bit too big. Like, it's 80% to where I need it to be.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

ewhulbert said:


> Elshan may have messed up the bezel clicks, but the custom rotor he put on the Zelos Horizon GMT is next level cool in my book.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+1 on the sweet Zelos rotor.

Doc Savage


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I just can't bring myself to get one of those GMTs. This, however, is calling to me:


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Toonces said:


> I know, Doc, you've said that making a GMT has some obstacles for you, but Squale can't keep that new Pepsi in stock. I can't help but believe that if/when you go with a sub GMT you're going to have trouble spending all the money you bring in.


Zodiac also blew through their stock of the blue/orange Aerospace pretty much instantly, for whatever it's worth.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Zodiac also blew through their stock of the blue/orange Aerospace pretty much instantly, for whatever it's worth.


Wait...you're telling me the billion-dollar, publicly traded company, with a well-known and storied brand name, and a massive dealer network, blew through some unknown number of watches they produced, after only being covered by every blog on the planet, all in the same week leading up to their release date?

This is my shocked face.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> +1 on the sweet Zelos rotor.
> 
> Doc Savage


+2 on the Zelos . The VPO is also a looker and this is a 9015!









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I just can't bring myself to get one of those GMTs. This, however, is calling to me:
> 
> View attachment 14309915


New Subs models...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Sellita? I don't even know. Do they make a GMT? Probably. I know Alpina did their own "in-house" day/date conversion with the SW200, so I'm guessing Sellita doesn't make a "2836-2 GMT", but probably makes a SW300 (2893-2) version. My hunch would be it's not quite as good as the ETA.
> 
> STP - After my experience with the STP1-11, I'm not sure I'd buy one if they had one. Surprisingly, when I spoke directly to my contact at STP, and suggested they could do a GMT conversion on their own day/date, I was told - I $hlt you not - that they don't see the business opportunity in developing a GMT, which is just insane, if you look at their website and see the bat$hlt-crazy stuff they actually DID develop and are trying to sell...


Sellita makes the SW-330, clone of the 2893-2. Monta uses it in the Skyquest, and Chris Ward uses it in their GMTs. Fun fact - the Zodiac Aerospace uses the ETA because STP doesn't make a GMT. I'm wondering if they are re-evaluating that decision now.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I only have one GMT, that's the Glycine Airman no.1.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Was just re-watching the Random Rob Skipjack video. The fact that it has a glossy dial didn't sink in before. Maybe that, plus "ultra black" bezel, plus distinctive handset would allow it to coexist with a Bahia.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Sellita makes the SW-330, clone of the 2893-2. Monta uses it in the Skyquest, and Chris Ward uses it in their GMTs.


My C.Ward GMT is a few years old, but has a 2893-2.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> My C.Ward GMT is a few years old, but has a 2893-2.


Yeah they switched to Sellita in the C65 GMT and the V3 C60 GMT. I'm curious how their Pepsi is doing sales wise, it's also right at the $1K mark.


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

3WR said:


> Was just re-watching the Random Rob Skipjack video. The fact that it has a glossy dial didn't sink in before. Maybe that, plus "ultra black" bezel, plus distinctive handset would allow it to coexist with a Bahia.


I really like the handset on the skipjack, might be my favorite NTH hands. The Seamaster style arrow hour and then straight minutes hand together works great for me.

There is one up on eBay right now if you want to get one soon.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> [
> Yeah they switched to Sellita in the C65 GMT and the V3 C60 GMT. I'm curious how their Pepsi is doing sales wise, it's also right at the $1K mark.
> 
> View attachment 14310449


This is the first time I've seen that watch and... I dunno. Putting aside my gripes about the newer logo(s), I think that beefy GMT hand just doesn't work, especially given how thin the bezel and hour/minute hands are.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Sellita makes the SW-330, clone of the 2893-2. Monta uses it in the Skyquest, and Chris Ward uses it in their GMTs. Fun fact - the Zodiac Aerospace uses the ETA because STP doesn't make a GMT. I'm wondering if they are re-evaluating that decision now.


Fun Fact - when you Google "Zodiac Aerospace" looking for pricing info, at least while sitting outside Philly, you find out there's a French company called "Zodiac Aerospace", which supplies the aviation industry, with three locations within driving distance...

Moving on, and responding more to the point, vis-a-vis Zodiac and STP both being owned by Fossil, and yet they used the ETA GMT...a small point of clarification...

STP has a clone of the 2824-2, and the 2836-2 day/date. However, they do NOT have a clone of the 2893-2. They could theoretically convert the 2836-2 clone to a GMT, but that wouldn't make it equivalent to the 2893-2 used in the Zodiac. The 2836-2 is a lower level movement than the 2893-2, which is also thinner (thin enough that it would theoretically fit into the NTH Subs' case with a little internal re-engineering).

If they want to have something equivalent, they'd have to cone the 2893-2, which seems like a very different proposition, in terms of R&D, to simply converting an existing calibre. If they want a GMT, their fastest way to market is to convert.

However, at least within the bigger Swiss movement manufacturers, there seems to be some ingrained resistance to doing those sorts of conversions. ETA, Sellita, and STP don't do them. The day/date to GMT conversion is only done by smaller firms that are buying the movements, doing the conversion, then reselling the calibres as GMT's.

So, if you'e Zodiac, and you plan to make a GMT, your choices are the ETA or the Sellita, period.

The real question isn't whether or not STP is going to create their own in-house GMT conversion of their day/date. That seems very unlikely. The real question is whether or not they'll develop their own version of the 2892-2 and make a 2893-2 GMT version.

If you look at the STP calibre range, it doesn't look like Sellita, where there's a close alignment with the ETA product range. That makes sense, since Sellita was assembling movements for ETA.

The STP range looks like Fossil bought a Chinese movement manufacturer (or partnered with one) and moved enough of the production to Switzerland to call their calibres "Swiss". Asided from the two or three calibres STP has which do look like ETA clones, the rest of their range looks more like the PTS Resources catalog, in terms of the complications and layouts.

*Responding (without snark this time) to your point about the Zodiac selling out...*

I know more than one Zodiac retailer. From what I'm told, I gather that Zodiac didn't make a $hlt-ton of the Aerospace. Unlike the big Swiss brands which are constantly over-producing, American-owned Zodiac has shown at least some degree of restraint in balancing supply and demand by limiting production volume leading up to a new model release.

Specifically, one retailer told me how many pieces they were able to buy from Zodiac, it wasn't a huge number (less than they requested), and it isn't at all surprising to me that they sold out quickly, given the extremely well-coordinated press coverage Zodiac had lined up prior to sales starting - something I'm not capable of replicating.

If the topic which prompted mention of the Zodiac is "why Chris doesn't make a GMT", and "Zodiac blew through theirs" is a line of reasoning meant to say, "Chris should make one, and stop saying there isn't enough demand to rationalize its development", I don't think that logically follows, for exactly the reasons I've said.

As I sit here typing this, for me, nothing's changed. If I'm going to use Swiss movements, at this point, I prefer to use ETA's (specifically, the 2893-2), not Sellita's (SW330). But I'm not even sure I can get ETAs right now, or how many I could get, or how much they'd cost. I have a pretty good idea about the minimum costs, and thus I'm pretty sure I know the minimum retail price, which would be well over the $700 price point.

When I say "price POINT", I mean that literally, as in the technical definition of that term. It's a point where I've got firsthand experience, and I know that the supply/demand curve - and thus buyer behavior - changes dramatically when microbrands go above it.

As an example - I'm watching (and limiting my participation in) a developing discussion on FB, about another brand's new model. It's a USD $600 watch with a Miyota 9015 inside. Prices for watches aren't like commodity prices. The products aren't fungible. The prices are at least somewhat a function of intangibles, like brand identity and promotion, so even though the company is in pre-launch, and the specs aren't amazing, I don't think the price is necessarily too ambitious. It really depends.

And yet, there's debate about whether or not the price is too high, with those saying it is clearly convinced that it is, in some objective sense. The FB group where the discussion is happening routinely hosts "what's the most you would pay for a microbrand" debates, in which many people seem to stop at $500, without ever adding any room to pay more for a watch that really ought to cost more, based on specs. The specs apparently don't matter to these people, they're not going over $500.

Those people may not be my customers, but it doesn't change my calculus, or the result. I know that there's more demand for an under $700 microbrand than an over $700 microbrand, and I'm not convinced there's enough demand for a ~$1000 microbrand GMT, when you can buy a used Tag Heuer Twin Time in good condition for that much.

---

Seriously, I'm not just flying by the seat of my pants over here. Y'all can stop asking me to make a GMT. When the time is right, trust me, I'll know. Until then, the development and production can't be rationalized, so my answers won't change, no matter how many times I get asked the question.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

3WR said:


> Was just re-watching the Random Rob Skipjack video. The fact that it has a glossy dial didn't sink in before. Maybe that, plus "ultra black" bezel, plus distinctive handset would allow it to coexist with a Bahia.


Chris could probably say for sure, but I'm looking at mine and I don't think the dial is glossy. The red ink for the Nth logo is very glossy and the black it's on appears matte.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Chris could probably say for sure, but I'm looking at mine and I don't think the dial is glossy. The red ink for the Nth logo is very glossy and the black it's on appears matte.


Pretty sure it isn't glossy. Probably just a trick of the light.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

How about a UTC watch, then? Would that be a fungi price point?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Out of curiosity, I just looked up revenue figures for Swatch and Fossil, in order to compare them.

Swatch has ~$7.5B. Fossil has ~$3B.

Both huge companies. Theoretically, Fossil has the resources to put into R&D, with the goal of making STP a real alternative to ETA and Sellita. 

But, Swatch is almost entirely focused on making watches, the vast majority produced for brands they own. Fossil is much more diversified, producing a lot of non-watch products, and a lot of their production is for brands they do NOT own, by way of various licensing or contract manufacturing deals they have in place.

Fossil being as big as it is means they may not be as concerned about what Swatch is doing with ETA. Whatever Swatch says about not selling ETA movements outside Swatch, obviously Zodiac was able to acquire some (but, again, we don't know exactly how many, yet we do know it wasn't more than the demand, clearly).

Viewed as a stand-alone business (only meaning that they almost certainly operate on their own P&L), Zodiac obviously has the resources to make - and effectively promote - models like the Aerospace, even with having to buy the movements they need from Swatch. 

I'm not sure Fossil is going to see the opportunity in building STP into a powerhouse. I am sure what Zodiac does isn't remotely relevant enough to my business to change what I'm doing.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Yeah they switched to Sellita in the C65 GMT and the V3 C60 GMT. I'm curious how their Pepsi is doing sales wise, it's also right at the $1K mark.
> 
> View attachment 14310449





Agent Sands said:


> This is the first time I've seen that watch and... I dunno. Putting aside my gripes about the newer logo(s), I think that beefy GMT hand just doesn't work, especially given how thin the bezel and hour/minute hands are.


I agree with you, the proportions are all off. The bezel looks a tad too thin for the watch as well.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

Not a GMT...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

New watch! New watch! Party Time! Excellent!









This was facilitated by sale of a Sinn 556A. I had no desire for an 857, due to the size, or especially a Seiko Spork for the same reason. Found myself suddenly without a diver. Scorpene satisfies on all fronts -- fit, aesthetic, specs, purpose. The lume is also a lot better than the 556, and it has an additional 100m WR. It also wears smaller than a similar-sized 856, due to the bezel and smaller dial.

It's a tad larger than I actually expected, and the weight lends it great wrist presence. But not too large or too heavy -- fits my 7" wrist very well. Unfounded worries: bracelet adjustment, male endlinks -- adjustment was a snap with the right screwdriver, fit is excellent. The crown is larger than I expected, but thinner, so no issues there, and very nicely complements the thin-ish bezel.

Crown action is super smooth in operation, same with setting the date and time on the movement. Bezel action is crisp and clicky with minimal back-play. Fit and finish are top-notch -- loving the polished beveled case edge in contrast to the brushed surfaces. Clasp has all the micro-adjust, snappy action, and best I can say about it is that it disappears in use -- no sharp edges, not too thick, etc.

Obviously in honeymoon stage, first day of ownership, but not regretting the decision to ditch the 556A in favor of this.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> New watch! New watch! Party Time! Excellent!


"We're not worthy&#8230; we're not worthy!"

Congrats!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

13 days straight wearing nothing but the Santa Cruz on stock bracelet. Including everyday morning run+swim.

The stock bracelet rocks. So far no problems from sand nor seawater. Bezel got a bit crunchy between days 2 to 6, but remedied itself from day 7 onwards.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Twehttam said:


> "We're not worthy&#8230; we're not worthy!"


...followed by "Extreme Closeup! Whooooaaaahhh!"


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I need to ask a favor.

Sometime within the last few months, someone here posted a pic of the three cardboard sleeves of the three watches they got - the Dolphin, the Barracuda, and the Nacken.

I can't remember who it was, and with a thread this long, I figure it'll be easier if I ask whoever it was to repost it or email it to me, rather than spending hours searching for it.

I actually did download it when it was posted, in order to make a note for my box factory, but I stupidly saved the note as part of the original image file, effectively screwing myself.

Whoever that was, can you do me a solid and re-post that pic, or just email it to me?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> I need to ask a favor.
> 
> Sometime within the last few months, someone here posted a pic of the three cardboard sleeves of the three watches they got - the Dolphin, the Barracuda, and the Nacken.
> 
> ...


I think it was posted by @twomanywrist on IG
I remember asking him a few questions about one of his NTH subs while he was waiting for those 3

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> I need to ask a favor.
> 
> Sometime within the last few months, someone here posted a pic of the three cardboard sleeves of the three watches they got - the Dolphin, the Barracuda, and the Nacken.
> 
> ...


https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-1257.html


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

92gli said:


> Chris could probably say for sure, but I'm looking at mine and I don't think the dial is glossy. The red ink for the Nth logo is very glossy and the black it's on appears matte.





docvail said:


> Pretty sure it isn't glossy. Probably just a trick of the light.


Thanks for the clarification. This is what fooled me. Looks like the underside of the hands reflecting off the dial.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

ewhulbert said:


> I really like the handset on the skipjack, might be my favorite NTH hands. The Seamaster style arrow hour and then straight minutes hand together works great for me.
> 
> There is one up on eBay right now if you want to get one soon.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the heads up.

No offense to the seller if they're around, but the bracelet screws look like they were rode hard and put away wet.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Not even really dark...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Pretty sure it isn't glossy. Probably just a trick of the light.


I always thought that were I in your shoes, I'd keep one of each of the models. Not for my personal rotation (although why not wear them?) but as a sort of reference library to consult as the need arose.

Not chiding you for not being positive about the Skipjack dial. Just, I don't know, saying different strokes for different folks.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Not even really dark...
> 
> View attachment 14312393


Cool picture. But that angle is freaking me out!


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

3WR said:


> Thanks for the heads up.
> 
> No offense to the seller if they're around, but the bracelet screws look like they were rode hard and put away wet.


It's an odd listing; he lists as brand new in box but it's clearly sized and he says he's worn it since Feb.

I didn't pick up on the screws. Thanks for the heads up. If it weren't for my recent good luck finding the Carolina I might have been bidding on that one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

CMA22inc said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-1257.html


That's mine. Let me know if you want me to send you the high-res photo.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Nazario Ghost at 6:45! And 27:00. Tune out before 32:00.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I think it was posted by @twomanywrist on IG
> I remember asking him a few questions about one of his NTH subs while he was waiting for those 3
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


that's me!


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> New watch! New watch! Party Time! Excellent!
> 
> View attachment 14311343
> 
> ...


Congrats on the Scorpene.. This watch is a diver I never knew I wanted... I got it off a trade of my 2 watches that I never used for months (both Seiko solars) for one of these. It is one or is the best trade I have ever done.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I think I told you guys I was on the Hour Time Podcast last week.

Here it is - https://wristwatchreview.com/2019/07/15/homage/

The intro says it's John, Victor and Richard Paige, but then flips over to our recording. My guess is it's a glitch and they'll get it sorted tomorrow.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Swapped out the stock bracelet for a Eulit leather strap.









Not sure if the pic really captures it, but this watch really wants a thicker leather strap.

Drilled lugs make strap/bracelet swap easy-peasy.

Another nice feature just discovered is the "captured" end links -- when the spring bar falls out, the end links are still attached to the bracelet. This may be common and I'm too much still a noob, but most of the other bracelets I've had, the spring bar connects the endlink to the first link of the beacelet.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> I think I told you guys I was on the Hour Time Podcast last week.
> 
> Here it is - https://wristwatchreview.com/2019/07/15/homage/
> 
> The intro says it's John, Victor and Richard Paige, but then flips over to our recording. My guess is it's a glitch and they'll get it sorted tomorrow.


Regarding the "down in the weeds discussion", the band with Ted Nugent and Tommy Shaw was Damn Yankees. One of the other guys in the band was from Night Ranger.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Swapped out the stock bracelet for a Eulit leather strap.
> 
> View attachment 14313649
> 
> ...


That's just a function of the end-link style, specifically the center-section, which extends down/out beyond the outer sections. The alternative is having the center section recessed, such that the center section of the next link comes up into the lugs. That's where you get the disconnection when the spring bar is removed.



RmacMD said:


> Regarding the "down in the weeds discussion", the band with Ted Nugent and Tommy Shaw was Damn Yankees. One of the other guys in the band was from Night Ranger.


I could only remember that there was some connection between them all, but couldn't come up with the Damn Yankees name.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> That's just a function of the end-link style, specifically the center-section, which extends down/out beyond the outer sections. The alternative is having the center section recessed, such that the center section of the next link comes up into the lugs. That's where you get the disconnection when the spring bar is removed.
> I could only remember that there was some connection between them all, but couldn't come up with the Damn Yankees name.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Still listening to the podcast. Way better than a WOT, not that I don't enjoy them.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Still listening to the podcast. Way better than a WOT, not that I don't enjoy them.


The sound is pretty messed up. In real-time, we weren't all talking over each other. It took us a while to get everyone's sound dialed in before we started recording. There must have been some remaining issues with the recording.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double post.

Text replaced with random pic:


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> The sound is pretty messed up. In real-time, we weren't all talking over each other. It took us a while to get everyone's sound dialed in before we started recording. There must have been some remaining issues with the recording.


No worries, it's all good. Listen to two others with Richard Paige. Good stuff. Big plus for me is hearing the pronunciation of brand names, which I butcher on a regular basis.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> No worries, it's all good. Listen to two others with Richard Paige. Good stuff. Big plus for me is hearing the pronunciation of brand names, which I butcher on a regular basis.


I'm not always convinced someone else is saying it right when I hear it.

*True Story - *

I was at a pig-roast the Saturday after that blog post dropped. Ran into a guy I met at a Christmas party last year (both events hosted by the same person, at same house). He's a watch guy. Doesn't really hang around talking about watches online, but somehow is hip to some of what micros are releasing. He was wearing that square-cased chrono from Moto Kore, produced 2-3 years back.

We got to talking. He asked how business was. I told him it had been a weird week. He asked why. I told him, but just in a general way, without too many specifics. He was shocked.

I was getting ready to leave, when he stopped me, "Hey, before you go, what do you think of this company 'Gun-alt'?"

"Who?"

"'Gun-alt'. They make a Rolex look-alike."

"Bro...THAT'S 'Zhe-know', the company I was telling you about, they were the subject of that blog post."

"THAT'S the company?"

"Yep...you thought it was 'Gun-alt'? I've been thinking it was French(ish), and pronouncing it 'Zhe-know'."

"Hmmm..."

"Hmmm..."


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Zhe no not included, but: https://www.crownandcaliber.com/pages/watch-brand-pronunciation-guide


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Indoor


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Outdoors


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Lume


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'm not always convinced someone else is saying it right when I hear it.
> 
> *True Story - *
> 
> ...


All this time, I thought it was GIN-ault. That explains why my family thinks I butchered French while I was in France and French people looked at me oddly.

Oh well.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Same watch, same room, just a slight turn of the wrist.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Ratfacedgit said:


> Lume


Fantastic shot - I HATE the california dial and the red/white color combo of this watch makes me think it looks a bit like a toy but DAMN if I don't think about picking one up when I see them on WatchRecon.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMFord said:


> Fantastic shot - I HATE the california dial and the red/white color combo of this watch makes me think it looks a bit like a toy but DAMN if I don't think about picking one up when I see them on WatchRecon.


Damn, bro...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Tried some "HSTRAP" bracelets.

One of them has "heavy" in the product description. It's not joking around. Its links are closer to the size of a Sub case than a Sub bracelet.

Nazario on mesh is growing on me. The others aren't.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

3WR said:


> Tried some "HSTRAP" bracelets.
> 
> One of them has "heavy" in the product description. It's not joking around. Its links are closer to the size of a Sub case than a Sub bracelet.
> 
> ...


+1 on the mesh.

watch addict in recovery


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

3WR said:


> Tried some "HSTRAP" bracelets.
> 
> One of them has "heavy" in the product description. It's not joking around. Its links are closer to the size of a Sub case than a Sub bracelet.
> 
> ...


Very nice! I have no experience with mesh.. it's either only bor or oysters. and abit of jubilee.

I'm now searching for the "perfect" tropic strap without cost crazy alot like those NOS swiss tropic.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ratfacedgit said:


> Outdoors


VERY nice. White dialed watches usually bore me to tears, but the texture and the crispness of the hour markers really come alive under sunlight. I'd love to see it on something like a brown rally strap.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> I'm not always convinced someone else is saying it right when I hear it.
> 
> *True Story - *
> 
> ...


Since it's getting fancy french in here, you are hereby renamed Va'ille


----------



## dustybutdigital (Jul 17, 2019)

Long time lurker here. I think this has been covered in the past, but no harm in checking again: are there any aftermarket bracelets with a 20-16 mm taper that comfirmedly fit the nth subs? I’ve had a Näcken modern blue for a year now and my only wish would be a more tapering bracelet. Particularly as I’m now eyeing the Amphion Commando. I got the 25$ alibaba version but the lugholes are a no go. I would be willing to pay considerably more too for one that fits...


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

If you search through the thread you may find some discussion on it. Any rolex 5 digit bracelet should fit, particularly the 93150.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


>


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14316117


Werewolf, maybe? Of London?


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Embrace the fur.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

After yesterday's trial with a Eulit leather dressy strap that was a bit thin, I went on a strap swapping extravaganza.

Not shown:

BluShark Pajama. Too thin, and a bit stretchy -- if it was tight enough to hold the watch in place, it was too tight around my wrist

WatchBandit NATO. One of the heavier, seatbelt models. Barely fits through the springbars, too thick for me -- too large a radius on the bend over the springbars. Maybe it would settle in, but life's too short for wonky NATOs. If you like thick NATOs, fits well and fills the lug space admirably.

Erika's Original MN -- nice fit. Makes me want to get a black one with white stripe.








Mankey Hook Strap -- again, fits well. 








Rios leather -- thicker than the Eulit, fits better, but I'm not sold on it.








Eulit "milanese" mesh -- same issue as on the Eulit leather strap, just doesn't fill up the lug space enough.








So, in my very naive estimation:
- lugs on the NTH subs are on the thicker end, where they terminate, and/or the lug holes are a bit low. THIS IS NOT A CRITICISM, MERELY AN OBSERVATION (please, Doc, no WoT...). I'm sure this is the case for many watches, just that I haven't really paid much attention to it on the watches I've owned.
- Maybe just me being picky, but I like a strap that fills the lug-space without a lot of inside-lug showing. Worst offenders were the thin Eulit leather and the straight endlink mesh. Best fit that is not the stock bracelet are underpass straps, like NATO, EO MN, perlon, and Mankey Hook. 
- It is not a lightweight watch, so elastic straps without a lot of heft (BluShark, EO knockoffs) may not play nice with NTHs.

Still loving my new Scorpene. Probably will finish the day with it on either the Mankey or EO. And I predict a return to the stock bracelet in short order... Probably I will check out a true "shark" mesh bracelet just for the fun of it at some point.

Just curious -- what do people like for a rubber strap on these...?


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Twehttam said:


> Embrace the fur.
> 
> View attachment 14316273


Except sometimes you furry guys post these close ups that make me feel like I'm in that cartoon where there were fleas on a dog's back and the hairs looked like trees:-d


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> Just curious -- what do people like for a rubber strap on these...?


Barton elite silicone. But their canvas straps are currently on 2 of my 3 watches.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

Doc, you hit it out of the park with this blue...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> ...So, in my very naive estimation:
> - lugs on the NTH subs are on the thicker end, where they terminate, and/or the lug holes are a bit low. THIS IS NOT A CRITICISM, MERELY AN OBSERVATION (please, Doc, no WoT...). I'm sure this is the case for many watches, just that I haven't really paid much attention to it on the watches I've owned.
> - Maybe just me being picky, but I like a strap that fills the lug-space without a lot of inside-lug showing. Worst offenders were the thin Eulit leather and the straight endlink mesh. Best fit that is not the stock bracelet are underpass straps, like NATO, EO MN, perlon, and Mankey Hook.
> - It is not a lightweight watch, so elastic straps without a lot of heft (BluShark, EO knockoffs) may not play nice with NTHs.
> ...


I don't take it as a criticism...but you get a WOT anyway...

The placement of the lug holes isn't random, or entirely up to us. There has to be enough clearance between the lug hole and the tips of the lugs, and between the hole for the bar within the link, and the edges of the end-link. Plus, the end-link has to fit onto the case. Usually, the holes are ~1mm inboard from the lug tips (measuring both horizontally, and vertically).

And, you can't necessarily just move the bar inward, because A) you might have to curve the bar around the case barrel (the span between the lugs, see Hamilton Pan Europ as an example), and B) when you put a strap on it, if the lug holes are too far from the lug tips, guys with smaller wrists get a weird effect where the strap more or less goes straight down and around the wrist, whereas the lugs keep going outward.

You might not even be able to fit a bracelet, if the lugs are too short and/or the lug holes are too close to the case, depending on the case design.

And yet, you're not the only one who looks at the visible, vertical surface of that inner wall between the lugs as an eyesore. Capucho used to prattle on about it when he and I spoke, and it's part of the reason we don't talk much anymore.

The fact that the Subs' lugs curve downward only exacerbate the issue, for those who view it as a problem.

There are two potential solutions, each with their drawbacks...

1. Don't curve the lugs downward. Straighter lugs will have the end of the strap higher on the case, hiding more of that wall. But...straight lugs. See "Most common complaint about Steinhart's cases" for why I don't like that idea.

2. Drill two sets of lug holes, one for the bracelet, one for the strap, which is usually higher and closer to the lugs.

Uhm, yeah, here's the problem with that one...

First - we drill the lug holes all the way through. We don't want to drill two sets of holes all the way through.

Second - you think bracelet and strap changes can sometimes be difficult with one set of lug holes? Wait until you've spent an afternoon trying to wrangle a spring bar into the right hole, not the wrong hole, then repeat that for the other side of the case.

Third - if we're not going to drill the holes all the way through, they have to be drilled at an oblique angle, and the closer to the case you put them, the less oblique (the farther from "straight") they'll be. You're practically begging for problems.

Fourth - even if you can get past all that, you still have the same basic problem you'd have if you just drilled one set of holes, but you drilled them higher and closer to the case. While the strap end covers more of that case wall, guys with thinner wrists still get the strap curving down while the lugs keep going outward.

My advice - stop obsessing over how your watch looks when you view it from between the lugs, while mounted on a strap. For crying out loud, that's not how you read the time. No one is looking at your wrist and saying, "Blimey, look at that billboard of a case wall visible above the end of his strap. Who hired this putz?"

If you just can't leave the watch on the stock bracelet, then jam whatever strap you like in there, if it'll fit, and move on with your life. You got bigger problems to sort out. Susie in accounting is gossiping about you and your odd strap choices.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh...I'm now getting Ginault's junk mail sent to me...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

redzebra said:


> Doc, you hit it out of the park with this blue...


Cheers, but...

Florida, summer time, long sleeves.

Do you bring a change of shirt to work with you, or is everyone just walking around like they spent the commute in a shvitz?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Just for S&G. Straps sit visually lowest on the SKX, highest on the Huldra, and somewhere in the middle on the SDGC. None has ever bothered me in the slightest, and going from memory, I don't recall having any issue with how my Nacken looked on straps. The only watch I've owned where I actively hated how it looked on straps, which it also was ostensibly designed for as there was never a bracelet, was the Evant Tropic.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Double post is doubly annoying.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> Ugh...I'm now getting Ginault's junk mail sent to me...




Dang...

Doc Savage


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> After yesterday's trial with a Eulit leather dressy strap that was a bit thin, I went on a strap swapping extravaganza.
> 
> Not shown:
> 
> ...


If you don't want to see any inner lug then this is made for the nth case:








It's called a Redding, accept no substitute 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> you get a WOT anyway...


Don't ever change, man...



docvail said:


> The placement of the lug holes...
> 
> [blahblahlugsblahlugholesblahblah]
> 
> ...stop obsessing over how your watch looks when you view it from between the lugs, while mounted on a strap.


Duly noted [and I actually do appreciate the whys behind lugs, lug-hole placement.]



docvail said:


> Susie in accounting is gossiping about you and your odd strap choices.


I knew it!!!


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

I've never owned another diver that had a shorter "wall" between the lugs than the Nth sub. A chamfer of the bottom edge of the case would be a nice luxury though; so thicker straps don't get snagged. (Nice luxury.. not complaining!)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Don't ever change, man...


Dafook would I change for? I love being me!



92gli said:


> I've never owned another diver that had a shorter "wall" between the lugs than the Nth sub. A chamfer of the bottom edge of the case would be a nice luxury though; so thicker straps don't get snagged. (Nice luxury.. not complaining!)


Nope, I can accept that one, too.

The peeps making the NTH Subs are the same peeps that made the Phantom, which had a bevel on the bottom of the case, between the lugs, to spare the strap. I didn't ask them to do it, they just did it. I'm honestly not sure why there isn't one on the Subs' case, but my hunch would be there can't be one, because of construction, or whatever.

Even with where the lug holes are, getting a NATO through there ain't all that easy, if you're trying to shimmy through one of those thicker seatbelt straps (which is pretty much the only kind of strap I wear), because 48mm lug length really ain't all that long, even if you put the holes 1mm from the lug tips.

---



Hotblack Desiato said:


> Dang...
> 
> Doc Savage


And yes, seriously, I got my first piece of junk mail for Ginault's alter-ego. Bad enough my own state's department of corporations sold my info to every jackwagon junk-mailer in the tri-state area, now I'm getting TC's junk mail, too.

I just stood there, staring at it and shaking my head, for a good twenty seconds. I mean...seriously?

Yes.

Seriously.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Plus...FB keeps trolling me, by suggesting I might know him...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

docvail said:


> Plus...FB keeps trolling me, by suggesting I might know him...


21 mutual friends. Time for a group hug! :-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Horoticus said:


> 21 mutual friends. Time for a group hug! :-!


Right?


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

You know, you could always ask him why he enrolled you in the special agents of the club month in Wyoming.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

I knew it!!![/QUOTE]

And Susie knows her straps!


----------



## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

Just sent an email to John @ Watch Gauge with interest in the Tikuna w/date.

Holy crap, you're making a watch that channels my childhood watching live action Japanese shows like Space Giants and Johnny Sakko and His Flying Robot (more popularly, Spectraman and Ultraman). A watch where super nuclear lume actually makes sense to me (sorry, Scorpene, you're just _too much_).

I'm probably missing design influence but don't care because I love the hour treatment and the 4:30 date. And those hands. And the red. Just awesome.

Having dress & casual watches well covered in the 36-38 range it's time to venture up to 40mm. Fits in well with my recent obsession with thin watches, have admired the case design since introduced. The Magenta Dolphin and Santa Cruz (no date, gasp!) tempted me but the Tikuna set the hook.

Have 2/3s the $$ saved up. No problem saving it, but am in the process of helping start a new business; adding may take a minute.

I like your new pop-up. It worked.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

devilsbite said:


> Just sent an email to John @ Watch Gauge with interest in the Tikuna w/date.
> 
> Holy crap, you're making a watch that channels my childhood watching live action Japanese shows like Space Giants and Johnny Sakko and His Flying Robot (more popularly, Spectraman and Ultraman). A watch where super nuclear lume actually makes sense to me (sorry, Scorpene, you're just _too much_).
> 
> ...


I forget where I was and what I was doing, but I just recently saw something about Spectreman, and vividly remembered how truly terrible so much of the television we had to watch as kids in the '70's was.

I mean, WTF was that show?

Anyhoo...

I don't think you're missing anything in the design influence. It's a mish-mosh...

We actually started off talking about doing something like the vintage UG Polerouter, but apparently Aaron and I were talking about different versions.

I meant this one:









But, Apparently, Aaron said, "Screw Chris, we're riffing on this one."









3-6-9-12 negative-block numbering - familiar to many, many of whom credit the Oris 65, I guess because their Google image search for vintage dive watches doesn't work. Credit where it's due, I think our own Aaron (@synaptyx) invented his own font there, which is the same we first used on the 3-6-9-12 block numbers of the Azores.

"Morse code" hour markers and long minute markers are semi-inspired by the Longines Legend Diver.

Red lines on the dial are semi-inspired by vintage Sicura divers.

Handset isn't really inspired by anything. I kinda got a vaguely Russian vibe off the dial design, so I was looking for a set of syringe or paddle hands, like the Vostok 1967 re-issue, but we couldn't find the right hands with the right lengths, so we looked at a bunch of alternatives, and the pair you see is the one we liked best.

I don't know exactly what it is about the Tikuna that conjures up feelings of '70's sci-fi, but, yeah, you ain't alone. It's got a vaguely '70's sci-fi feel to it.


----------



## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

docvail said:


> vividly remembered how truly terrible so much of the television we had to watch as kids in the '70's was.


Truth.

Thanks for the insight. Glad to hear I'm not the only one who reads it that way.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

on-point!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

liquidtension said:


> on-point!
> View attachment 14317249


Duuuuuuuuude. Wow.
Put that on the frontpage of hodinkee, that's an amazing shot.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hey doc, what's the dial finish on the Tikuna? matte black? Shiny gloss black? Anodized ruthenium black?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

X2-Elijah said:


> Duuuuuuuuude. Wow.
> Put that on the frontpage of hodinkee, that's an amazing shot.


I love that shot. Let's send it to hodinkee hahah.. it's taken with my pixel xl2 and edited in snapseed.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

~


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

Hey Chris, if it has any informative and or entertainment value - would you mind sharing the process behind the selection of lume used on the bezel of the Brown 'Cuda? Did you simply use the same as the other bezels, or something specific to give it a more greenish tint? 

As mentioned earlier, it looks almost radioactive or "always on" . Don't know ifs actually green, or its due to the way the lume and bezel work of each other.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Speaking of GMTs, this new Squale is an absolute stunner. The red bezel/navy blue dial version is just weird, but this "robin blue" enamel/gray sunburst version is pretty spectacular. I imagine the 75 run will be gone within a day.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

damn.... squale is releasing a bunch of new divers that are ticking alot of boxes


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Squale and lume should not even be in the same sentence. 

NTH subs are what should be discussed with lume and torch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hey doc, what's the dial finish on the Tikuna? matte black? Shiny gloss black? Anodized ruthenium black?


He said his name was Matt Black.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RPDK said:


> Hey Chris, if it has any informative and or entertainment value - would you mind sharing the process behind the selection of lume used on the bezel of the Brown 'Cuda? Did you simply use the same as the other bezels, or something specific to give it a more greenish tint?
> 
> As mentioned earlier, it looks almost radioactive or "always on" . Don't know ifs actually green, or its due to the way the lume and bezel work of each other.


Probably more informative than entertainment...

It's C3, same as the markers and hands.

It glows green, and C3 is the brightest of the standard lume colors, so it can often be detected in some not-really-dark settings, making people think the color is more green than it is.

Sometimes lume can appear brighter on some surfaces of some components, because of how much of it is applied. The bezel insert is brown under the lume. The markers and hands are gold. There's going to be some difference in color when you use the same color lume on two different surfaces with different underlying colors.

I've read comments/complaints about lume being brighter on one part, like the hands, than another, like the markers. It can't be helped, and it's one of those things that makes me roll my eyes when I read it.

I mean, how do you equalize lume brightness across components made of different materials, and different colors, with different finishes, of different sizes, where the amount of lume material is different?

It's lume. It glows. That's what it does. If it's bright enough to see, then it's working. There's no "brightness" knob we can turn to dial up or down on each part.

But WIS gotta be WIS, and WIS gotta find something to complain about (especially when it's a micro, not a big name brand), so...

(^Not to suggest I read the comment as a complaint, just remembering some of the many and very silly complaints I've read, some from obvious noobs, one or two of whom actually got upset because we didn't publish their review to our website.)

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

I can appreciate attempts to be creative with lume (I the lumed crown idea is really nifty), but folks get weirdly finicky about that stuff.

As far as I'm concerned, if I can tell the time on the watch if I get woken up in the middle of the night, the lume is fine.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Last night, wife-ish got up in the middle of the night, right around 3:20am. How do I know? Scorpene lume... Not as nuclear bright as fresh-charged or just in from being outside in the sun, but plenty bright to read at night from a dead sleep.


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Probably more informative than entertainment...
> 
> Sometimes lume can appear brighter on some surfaces of some components, because of how much of it is applied. The bezel insert is brown under the lume. The markers and hands are gold. There's going to be some difference in color when you use the same color lume on two different surfaces with different underlying colors.


Makes perfect sense. Thanks


----------



## gokce (May 10, 2018)

docvail said:


> I meant this one:
> 
> View attachment 14317237


If this comes to pass, I'm in line for one.


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

I'm really not one to stir up things but...

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/paying-over-200%80-microbrand-kickstarter-watches-4994651-2.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-barracuda-vintage-black-honest-depth-review-4994793.html

Seems Mr. JLS36 has a bone to pick with you.....


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Fantastic shot - I HATE the california dial and the red/white color combo of this watch makes me think it looks a bit like a toy but DAMN if I don't think about picking one up when I see them on watchrecon.

It is my favorite NTH and matches another red/white toy. Now if Doc can make the numbers rosewood color it would be a perfect match.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Good for traveling too #whodathunk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Metallman said:


> I'm really not one to stir up things but...
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/paying-over-200%80-microbrand-kickstarter-watches-4994651-2.html
> 
> ...


I don't have a problem with anything he's said, which I think could be fairly condensed as "I prefer more original designs to homages, and in my opinion, these should cost less."

1. The NTH Subs either ARE homages (designs which take very clear inspiration from others, inasmuch as we borrowed a lot but changed a little), or PAY homage (designs which aren't as clear in their inspiration, which could just mean we were more creative in how we went about stealing good ideas from guys who are probably dead now).

2. I actually want some people to think we're charging too much. My goal is to perfectly split the market in half, with one side saying I charge too much, and the other thinking I could charge more. I'd actually be okay with more people thinking we charge too much, if it means I can offer a better product and better service to a smaller group of people who are willing to pay me to deliver those things. Life would actually be a bit easier, and every keystroke here has me thinking I can't wait to raise prices again.

The worst possible situation my business could be in would be for everyone to agree we're offering the best bargain in watches today. I'd be making no money, miserable, and unable to deliver much in the way of pre- or post-sale support. I certainly wouldn't be able to afford to pay designers like Aaron and Rusty to do what they do (regardless of how original anyone thinks it is), I couldn't get Dan to QC and regulate all the watches the way he does, or have someone on standby to respond to all incoming messages within 24 hours (often within minutes).

I don't want everyone to be able to justify buying one of my watches. Note, I'm not saying I don't want everyone to be able to afford them. I want everyone to be able to afford whatever they want.

But there's a group of customers within the market, which I simply don't want to cultivate as customers for my business. They're the guys who add up the list of components and set a ceiling on what we can charge, without any real ability to differentiate with quality, or design, or support, and no regard whatsoever for whether or not I can support my family with the profit I earn running the business. They're the same guys who are quick to complain, reasonably or not, threaten a chargeback dispute if I don't bend to their will, and run online to assemble a lynch mob for a public hanging.

It's totally okay for people to say I'm overcharging. As long as it's not all the people saying it, I'm good. My best customers think I'm offering an incredible value (i.e, not charging as much as I could be), and would be willing to pay more, if I had to charge more. They're more likely to come back and buy more of what we sell, rave about us to their friends and others online, and write nice reviews. I want to cultivate THOSE customers.

Let my competitors be the value-leaders, the ones who are never criticized for their prices, or anything else. They can have all the customers who self-select away from my business, and towards theirs, along with all the problems they bring.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ratfacedgit said:


> ...Now if Doc can make the numbers rosewood color it would be a perfect match.


Don't fly too close to the Sun, Icarus...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> I can appreciate attempts to be creative with lume (I the lumed crown idea is really nifty), but folks get weirdly finicky about that stuff.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, if I can tell the time on the watch if I get woken up in the middle of the night, the lume is fine.


Agreed.

If I hear a complaint once, I generally shrug it off, and won't mention it to anyone. If I hear it a few times, I'll think about it, trying to figure out some things.

Like, is this a wide-spread thing that everyone is getting (same clasp, same end-link), but only a few people finding and reporting (rough finishing?), or just a few pieces with some small deviation that anyone/everyone would notice (this don't work right, in fact, it's broke), or something more or less imaginary, that a few guys feel compelled to report (muh lumes don't match), because noob WIS gotta noob WIS, or whatever?

Is it a quality thing I need to address, because enough people care, and would notice the improvement (better clasp), or is it something that's more a matter of some people's preferences (different end-link), and not really a change that would equate to an improvement in the product (end-link)?

Is it something we CAN improve, and if so, what would that take, what would it cost, and how many would be affected?

If I get the same complaint a few times, but I can see I'll keep getting it, and it falls somewhere under the general heading of "this is stupid, leave me alone", I might eventually get tired enough of hearing it that I'll mention it.

Lume is one of those things. We do good lume. I know we do. We don't skimp on the lume, because I know WIS loves them some good lume. But somehow we got from "necessary for safety on a deep dive that might last a few hours" to "I need to be able to read the time when I get up at 4am to pee."

And it's not enough that you can see it during your 4am bathroom trip, oh no. Now the hour markers, hands, and bezel have to be perfectly uniform in color, and uniformly bright, in all lighting conditions, regardless of underlying surface material or color, or I hear about it.

I get that not everyone has the knowledge or experience that I do, so they may think what they're saying is reasonable, not realize that they're expecting the impossible, given the limitations of reality - a blue, black, clear or brown insert, white-frosted or brushed metal hands, white-frosted or metallic markers, all with different depths to their respective lume patches.

But how is "hands are brighter than the markers" (when both are very bright) or "lume glows so bright that it looks green, even in the daylight" something people would even complain about?

I dunno, but them do complain, them people.

Like, maybe 5% of people who buy the product will ever come back to write a review, but I swear I've had a dozen people mention something like that (not always related to lume, but always something equally trivial in the degree of the complaint, like the quality of a buckle on an off-the-shelf $30 natural rubber strap, or that the lume in the crown isn't as bright).

Sometimes the review is positive, overall, 4 or 5 stars in most cases, but there's that one little niggle they just have to mention, always something only a WIS would look at, and feel was worth bringing up. Non-WIS don't worry about whether or not the hands and markers are of equal brightness while they're peeing at 4am, or whether or not they can still see the logo in the crown glowing.

Sometimes I'll contact them with an offer to buy the watch back (when they provided enough identifying info for me to figure out who submitted the review), or even refund them, just to see how serious they are about the complaint. Don't like it enough? I'll trade you for your money back. It's worn? I'll add it to my own collection or use it as a review sample. Here's a label.

So far, not one person I contacted after getting their review (or email with a complaint) has ever agreed to send one back to me.

I don't publish every review, for the same reason I wouldn't publish one from someone complaining about the battery in an automatic watch dying after 3 days off the wrist. I know I'm dealing with someone who doesn't realize what they're saying is stupid, but someone reading that review is going to know it's stupid, and I don't want to make a customer look stupid on my website.

Maybe 5% of the reviews we'd received on the old website went unpublished, for that reason. Of those, probably 1 in 5 people had the audacity to email us asking why we didn't publish their review, as if I'm legally and ethically bound to maintain an unregulated forum for public airing of complaints, reasonable or not, stupid or not.

One guy was really upset I didn't publish his scathing review, but then told me didn't want to send it back for a refund, which I practically demanded he do, right away. Why did he refuse? Because he was enjoying it.

You follow that? Destroyed the watch in his review. Angry I didn't publish it. Angry enough to piss in my ear about me not publishing it. Questioned my character because of it. Refused to send it back for refund, because he was enjoying it too much.

Had a guy wait 2.5 years to submit a review complaining that the color of the watch didn't match our "illustrations" on the website, which were actually photographs, taken in a studio, in my office, and on my front porch (as "real world" as it gets). The watch was unworn. I offered him 60% of what he paid (which wasn't full price), planning to flip it for a profit. He demanded 10% more than the current full price.

You get that? Got the watch, didn't like it, felt compelled to complain about it 2.5 years later, refused to sell it at anything less than 10% more than current retail.

Had a guy submit an anonymous review, then email to ask why we didn't publish it, but didn't even bother to provide any identifying information. Of course I knew which review it was. We get 2 bad reviews per year. I played stupid with him, and kept the exchange going for 3 days before he realized I knew exactly which review he submitted all along. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

When people ask why I drink, I tell them I sell watches.

I'm not Amazon. Go air your grievances on a public forum, if you just gotta get 'em out. My website is essentially paid advertising. No movie trailer ever included the blurb "This movie sux! - Anonymous".

Thank God the new website doesn't allow for anonymous submissions (but, sadly, also wouldn't let us import any anonymous reviews from the old site). Having to attach their name to a review seems to discourage the Keyboard Kommandos.

I really wish there was a plug-in app which could test people's knowledge of making watches before letting them even see the text box to submit a product review.

Question 1 - Does your automatic watch have a battery...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Speaking of GMTs, this new Squale is an absolute stunner. The red bezel/navy blue dial version is just weird, but this "robin blue" enamel/gray sunburst version is pretty spectacular. I imagine the 75 run will be gone within a day.
> 
> View attachment 14317765


And the award for highest-number of mis-matched and completely inappropriate fonts goes to...

I have to laugh at myself here. I was talking to another brand owner earlier today, Sergio DiRenzo, for Doc's House Calls. Unlike me, he actually has professional design training.

When he mentioned typefaces, I told him I never let myself criticize anyone else's choice in fonts, given the fact I chose Brush Script for the Lew & Huey logo, and all the $hlt I caught for that.

But then I saw this pic, and all sense of self-awareness and shame just completely deserted me.

That is truly a dumpster fire.

I'm sure it'll sell out quickly, and become a prized collector's item. I'll try to act like it's amazing if I ever see one at a GTG.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> We do good lume. I know we do. We don't skimp on the lume, because I know WIS loves them some good lume. But somehow we got from "necessary for safety on a deep dive that might last a few hours" to "I need to be able to read the time when I get up at 4am to pee."


We're a silly bunch, demanding absurd depth ratings and helium escape valves we'll never use, and then just wearing them to our desk jobs and occasional beach vacations.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> We're a silly bunch, demanding absurd depth ratings and helium escape valves we'll never use, and then just wearing them to our desk jobs and occasional beach vacations.


Maybe that right there is the real driver of all the madness.

You dive? You need a watch with lume, and the lume has to work, or you might die. Does it work? Yes? Then we're good here.

You don't dive? What do you need lume for? 4am trips to the bathroom? While you're walking and getting that stream started, you got time to notice if it's all evenly bright, don't ya? What else can we see? Maybe we ought to put it under a microscope, and see if the lume has any rough spots at 10x magnification. Oh boy, what's that on the edge of the hour hand? A tool mark? How did they miss that in QC? Better go find that email you got, with the invitation to write a review...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Metallman said:


> I'm really not one to stir up things but...
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/paying-over-200%80-microbrand-kickstarter-watches-4994651-2.html
> 
> ...


I don't know about trying to stir things up but you certainly got the attention of the NTH crowd. We all seem to be over there now.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

docvail said:


> You don't dive? What do you need lume for? 4am trips to the bathroom? While you're walking and getting that stream started, you got time to notice if it's all evenly bright, don't ya? What else can we see? Maybe we ought to put it under a microscope, and see if the lume has any rough spots at 10x magnification. Oh boy, what's that on the edge of the hour hand? A tool mark? How did they miss that in QC? Better go find that email you got, with the invitation to write a review...


I like lume at 4 am but I'm not that OCD. If I really wanted to annoy my wife, I'd wear a black Scorpene. That thing is a nuclear torch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> I like lume at 4 am but I'm not that OCD. If I really wanted to annoy my wife, I'd wear a black Scorpene. That thing is a nuclear torch.


I was wearing my Barracuda Vintage Black when we went to see Avengers End Game.

My wife was really annoyed by its lume.

Movie was almost as awesome as the watch.


----------



## Ticktocker (Oct 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> I don't have a problem with anything he's said, which I think could be fairly condensed as "I prefer more original designs to homages, and in my opinion, these should cost less."
> 
> 1. The NTH Subs either ARE homages (designs which take very clear inspiration from others, inasmuch as we borrowed a lot but changed a little), or PAY homage (designs which aren't as clear in their inspiration, which could just mean we were more creative in how we went about stealing good ideas from guys who are probably dead now).
> 
> ...


I don't get it........ I think NTH makes great watches. Good quality finishing. Accurate. Nice designs. Good customer service. So do other micro brands with lower prices. How much money a business owner needs to make to feed his family shouldn't be a concern of the customer. Sounds like you only want family members to buy NTH and can't wait to raise the prices so those family members will be happier. Am I getting it wrong?


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> I couldn't get Dan to QC and regulate all the watches the way he does


Can you elaborate on the QC and regulation procedure?

Past posts of yours have led me to believe that any movement performance within the official Miyota 9015 specs is OK and goes out to the customer.


----------



## eztime (Mar 12, 2018)

docvail said:


> I was wearing my Barracuda Vintage Black when we went to see Avengers End Game.
> 
> My wife was really annoyed by its lume.
> 
> Movie was almost as awesome as the watch.


I wore my Nazario Sauro to the movie theater once and got self-conscious thinking I was annoying the people next to me with a glowing watch. That full lume dial is no joke. Now I think twice about what watch I wear to the movies.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ticktocker said:


> I don't get it........ I think NTH makes great watches. Good quality finishing. Accurate. Nice designs. Good customer service.


Awesome. Thanks.



Ticktocker said:


> So do other micro brands with lower prices.


Also awesome, and good to hear.

Question - how do you know? How do you measure all those things, and add them up to determine a fair price?

How do you measure differences in quality of finishing, and how do you place a value on it?

How do you value good design?

How would you measure good service? Is it pass/fail, or is there some metric you'd use, for things like response time, and turnaround times on repairs?



Ticktocker said:


> How much money a business owner needs to make to feed his family shouldn't be a concern of the customer.


Agree to disagree?

Feeding a family is kind of important when you have one. So is feeding oneself. If Chris don't eat, Chris don't work, and there goes all those great watches, with the quality finishing, and the accuracy, and the good (really insulting, that word, when used to describe others who aren't delivering a fraction of the service we are) service.

Good luck getting any service at all from the brand that isn't charging enough for the product to actually deliver the service behind it.



Ticktocker said:


> Sounds like you only want family members to buy NTH and can't wait to raise the prices so those family members will be happier.


Family? Which of my cousins are you? I lost track when the number exceeded 20.

For a guy who only wants his CUSTOMERS to buy NTH, I sure do seem to spend an awful lot of energy promoting my competitors' brands, no?

If you can explain to me why I shouldn't want to see the leading indicators of business health improve for my business, I'll gladly listen. Can you name many businesses that don't raise prices when things are going particularly well? How many are in industries where startups routinely underprice their products, and the owners literally work for no pay in the early years?

We raised prices on the Subs last year. The vast majority of the comments we've received suggested people A) totally appreciated the improvements we made in the product, and B) totally understood why we needed to raise prices after 3 years of keeping them the same, despite constant cost increases, coincident with several improvements in our service and the quality of the product.

Yes, despite raising prices, our customers are happier. Those that aren't happier aren't customers any more. It's okay. We replaced them with newer, even happier customers. I can't believe how deliriously happy the vast majority of people are, and I can't wait to shuffle the last of the unhappy ones out the door.



Ticktocker said:


> Am I getting it wrong?


Nah.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Can you elaborate on the QC and regulation procedure?
> 
> Past posts of yours have led me to believe that any movement performance within the official Miyota 9015 specs is OK and goes out to the customer.


Speaking of past posts...

You're asking me to thoroughly document the 6+ rounds of QC we do, processes which have been developed and refined over 6 years in business, at no small expense, here on a public forum, where any of my competitors could possibly read it, thereby turning it to their competitive advantage, at the request of an anonymous forum user, with a history of running down the brand, and no clear indication of what's in it for me?

Yeah, let me get right on that.

Go find the post, any post, where I said "any movement performance within the official Miyota 9015 specs is OK and goes out to the customer", please. Then explain how "within spec" is positioned the way you've framed it, as if it's actually sub-standard.

When you stop putting words in my mouth, I'll start caring what comes out of yours.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Twehttam said:


> The past few pages of this thread make me want a NVW *with* date. Hmmm...


And now I'm here...









Too many designs, not enough wrists. Would love to see a wrist shot of this... postulating/hoping the steel-color bezel may visually shrink the overall size a bit but, regardless, it's hot.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> You're asking me to thoroughly document the 6+ rounds of QC we do


I asked if you could "elaborate" on your regulation procedure.



docvail said:


> at the request of an anonymous forum user, with a history of running down the brand


I have no history whatsoever of "running down the brand".



docvail said:


> Go find the post, any post, where I said "any movement performance within the official Miyota 9015 specs is OK and goes out to the customer"


I recall a fairly recent post where you said that customers complaining about movement performance would be asked to document it on a timegrapher showing out-of-official-spec performance before you would regulate it under warranty. I inferred from this that no regulation was done beforehand to get the watches to better than official spec. I asked my question to find out if this is right or wrong. And I wanted to know because I'm seriously considering the Amphion Commando as my next purchase.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> And the award for highest-number of mis-matched and completely inappropriate fonts goes to...
> 
> I have to laugh at myself here. I was talking to another brand owner earlier today, Sergio DiRenzo, for Doc's House Calls. Unlike me, he actually has professional design training.
> 
> When he mentioned typefaces, I told him I never let myself criticize anyone else's choice in fonts, given the fact I chose Brush Script for the Lew & Huey logo, and all the $hlt I caught for that.


Somewhere, out there, is a kickstarter dude thinking that the dial he designed with Comic Sans type is the absolute best ever.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> What do you need lume for?


I have a Scorpene, so I need it to read in bed at night, or, alternately, to warn ships away from the rockier sections of shore on foggy nights.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I actually quite like that squale for what it is...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

^^^ And what might that be?


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> I have a Scorpene, so I need it to read in bed at night, or, alternately, to warn ships away from the rockier sections of shore on foggy nights.


This is one of the few comments on here that actually made me lol(well chuckle at least). I think I said before that I abandoned the clock on my nightstand and just hit the renegade with a UV flashlight before bed and set it on the nightstand. True story.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

MikeyT said:


> ^^^ And what might that be?


the squale master that was "re-released" in 2014.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Dub Rubb said:


> This is one of the few comments on here that actually made me lol(well chuckle at least). I think I said before that I abandoned the clock on my nightstand and just hit the renegade with a UV flashlight before bed and set it on the nightstand. True story.
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


Damn, I thought I might be the only one still using a clock (LED) beside my bed. Now I'm totally psyched to do the UV flashlight thing.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> And the award for highest-number of mis-matched and completely inappropriate fonts goes to...
> 
> I have to laugh at myself here. I was talking to another brand owner earlier today, Sergio DiRenzo, for Doc's House Calls. Unlike me, he actually has professional design training.
> 
> ...


Heh. I don't think Squale has ever been known for their font consistency, and they sure love putting Squale on the dial twice. And yes, their lume is trash. All of that being said, the blue 60ATM Squalematic is, in my humble opinion, the prettiest dive watch ever created.


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

Ticktocker said:


> I don't get it........ I think NTH makes great watches. Good quality finishing. Accurate. Nice designs. Good customer service. So do other micro brands with lower prices. How much money a business owner needs to make to feed his family shouldn't be a concern of the customer. Sounds like you only want family members to buy NTH and can't wait to raise the prices so those family members will be happier. Am I getting it wrong?


Chris has a sound pricing strategy. There are about a million different things that go into pricing, but if you are doing limited runs that sell out, and there are not people who think it's too expensive, then you are leaving money on the table.

There are a ton of different ways to look at pricing, either a cost based pricing or a value based pricing or a market based pricing, etc. Assuming he is making enough to justify his risk, Chris' strategy works under all of those models. Enough customers feel they are getting sufficient value that they buy multiple watches. The secondary market values most used NTH watches in that they sell for slightly less than new watches.

Almost every run sells out quickly and then some are flipped for about the same price; that's pretty much the definition of pricing equilibrium there.

Happy to jump on a call to discuss of this is something that bothers you. I'm a consultant, I can talk about this stuff all day.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Davekaye90 said:


> Heh. I don't think Squale has ever been known for their font consistency, and they sure love putting Squale on the dial twice. And yes, their lume is trash. All of that being said, the blue 60ATM Squalematic is, in my humble opinion, the prettiest dive watch ever created.
> 
> View attachment 14319831


bluetiful!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> I asked if you could "elaborate" on your regulation procedure.
> 
> I have no history whatsoever of "running down the brand".
> 
> I recall a fairly recent post where you said that customers complaining about movement performance would be asked to document it on a timegrapher showing out-of-official-spec performance before you would regulate it under warranty. I inferred from this that no regulation was done beforehand to get the watches to better than official spec. I asked my question to find out if this is right or wrong. And I wanted to know because I'm seriously considering the Amphion Commando as my next purchase.


Mate, don't bull$hlt a bull$hltter. I never called BS, but I've read your posts suggesting I don't stand behind the product I sell, which everyone knows is BS, and leads me to suspect your motives aren't entirely sincere when you pop in here, asking pointed questions, always related to quality, and our processes.

To clarify, when a customer emails us to say a watch isn't running within spec, I ask them how they're measuring. Often, it's the wrong way. I tell them, before we'll take it back for regulating, we need to see a timegrapher report.

Never seen one come back.

Just to make the obvious even more obvious, I'll break that down into increments.

CUSTOMER said the watch doesn't run within spec. I asked for proof it doesn't. We never saw anyone again.

That's a country mile from saying we just ship watches without regulating them further, to run better than spec. And the fact that you'd draw that sort of inference just reinforces the impression - and my clear recollection - that you're not just looking for bad stuff we might be doing, you're hoping to talk about it.

Is that enough elaboration for you?

No?

Fine.

The vast majority of movements we get are running EXTREMELY well before they even get to us. But, some small percentage aren't running EXTREMELY well. I've instructed my watchmaker to take the 9015 spec for daily variance, cut it in HALF, and pull any watch that isn't within that range out to be regulated further, which he'll do, and when he's done, the vast majority will run within COSC spec, often within 1 sec/day.

So, the absolute WORST timekeeping a watch will have when we ship it is 1/2 the manufacturer's spec.

If someone claims a watch isn't running within spec, and hasn't had it on a timegrapher, at full power, in the four specified positions, to get the average, then, in that case, yes, I ask them to do that, or have it done, so that we know a watch is actually in need of regulation, before we agree to take it back to be regulated, which we will of course be happy to do, under warranty, at no charge, just as soon as someone, anyone, anywhere, can find one that isn't running at least as well as advertised.

Keep quizzing me. I'll keep giving you the answers you hope you won't hear. You're not going to trip me up, or catch me off guard. We're doing everything we need to do, with a speed and at a level many companies ten times our size can't match.

Ask around about how long it takes some of the bigger name brands to respond to a customer support request, or turn around a repair. We're answering emails same-day, and turning around most repairs in 1 day. Literally, watches we get for warranty work are being shipped back the next day, in the vast majority of cases.

We don't ship sub-standard product. Our QC standards are so tight the only complaints we get are stuff that can only be seen under high magnification, or the supremely WIS-picky stuff, like "bracelet sux", but no explanation why.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> the squale master that was "re-released" in 2014.
> 
> View attachment 14319825


Nice looking watch.

Shame about the obvious patch of crud on the dial, the mismatched lume, and whatever the hell is going on with that triangle on the bezel.

Please tell me this was a vintage watch, not the new, re-issued piece.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> Nice looking watch.
> 
> Shame about the obvious patch of crud on the dial, the mismatched lume, and whatever the hell is going on with that triangle on the bezel.
> 
> Please tell me this was a vintage watch, not the new, re-issued piece.


It was a collab between squale and Page and Cooper to re-create the watches from the 60's. Only 60 were made.

https://wornandwound.com/review/squale-x-pagecooper-vintage-master-review/ - wornandwound[dot]com/review/squale-x-pagecooper-vintage-master-review/


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Heh. I don't think Squale has ever been known for their font consistency, and they sure love putting Squale on the dial twice. And yes, their lume is trash. All of that being said, the blue 60ATM Squalematic is, in my humble opinion, the prettiest dive watch ever created.
> 
> View attachment 14319831


Without a doubt, that is one of the prettiest $650 watches on the market today.

Shame everyone is asking $1200 for it.


----------



## Ticktocker (Oct 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> Awesome. Thanks.
> 
> Also awesome, and good to hear.
> 
> ...


Oh, now I get it....?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> It was a collab between squale and Page and Cooper to re-create the watches from the 60's. Only 60 were made.
> 
> https://wornandwound.com/review/squale-x-pagecooper-vintage-master-review/ - wornandwound[dot]com/review/squale-x-pagecooper-vintage-master-review/


Welp, Squale definitely nailed the "looking like it was made 50 years ago" thing.

So, they got that going for them.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

RmacMD said:


> Damn, I thought I might be the only one still using a clock (LED) beside my bed. Now I'm totally psyched to do the UV flashlight thing.


I just use my Nite Alpha with T100 lume.... it's seriously bright all night. Prop it up next to the bed. Perfect clock for the night.









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Nice looking watch.
> 
> Shame about the obvious patch of crud on the dial, the mismatched lume, and whatever the hell is going on with that triangle on the bezel.
> 
> Please tell me this was a vintage watch, not the new, re-issued piece.


The bezels are '60s originals, hence the faded tritium lume on them. The dials though are new, so any dirt in the cases would be a QC fail.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ticktocker said:


> Oh, now I get it....?


What can I clarify?

Someone said we're charging too much. I say they're welcome to think that, in fact, I want them to think that, because the alternative is everyone agrees I'm not charging too much, which is going to suck for me, my business, and ultimately, my customers.

Ask the customers of any brand that's gone out of business - because they didn't charge enough.

You quoted a post of mine (thank you for not editing it to remove context), but then you:

1. Put words in my mouth - "Sounds like you only want family members to buy NTH and can't wait to raise the prices so those family members will be happier."

2. Set up a straw-man - "How much money a business owner needs to make to feed his family shouldn't be a concern of the customer."

3. Apparently to support the idea that we are in fact charging too much - "...So do other micro brands with lower prices."

4. Which makes the bit of flattery which preceded that line seem less than entirely sincere - "I think NTH makes great watches. Good quality finishing. Accurate. Nice designs. Good customer service. So do other micro brands with lower prices."

5. And closed with a question phrased like it was rhetorical, but given what it followed, seemed like it was baiting me into an argument about our prices - "Am I getting it wrong?"

That's what you posted. I responded to each point, line by line, directly, and, IMO, appropriately.

I don't want to argue about our prices. They're not going down. They're only going to go up. Everyone who wants a watch should buy one before that happens. You snooze, you lose. As happy as you are to pay less, someone else will be just as happy to pay more, so long as the product quality and support justify the asking price, and from my chair, they more than justify it.

Not concerned about the business owner being able to support his family by delivering a good product and service to his happy customers? Seriously? What's wrong with you? That's like, the most basic of basics. Should Aaron, Dan and Rusty all work for free too, so you can get a $800 watch for $400 instead of $600? I can't wait to hear how they explain that to their families. GTF outta here.

I can't wait for the day when my prices are high enough that the guys who say they're too high don't even bother any more, the same way no one is aghast that a Squalematic 60 is $1200 with a basic 2824-2, bland, retread design (don't get me wrong, I love the color), no bracelet, and quality that anyone who is qualified to judge would know can't match ours. That's a $650 watch, full stop, but they get $1200 for it, which only makes me more convinced I'm not charging enough for the NTH Subs.

Don't like the price? Awesome. Thanks for letting me know. I need exactly that sort of feedback. It makes me wonder if the price isn't too low, and I'm putting my business in jeopardy.

Thank you, all of you, complaining about the price. You're indispensable tools for the business owner who knows how to use them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> The bezels are '60s originals, hence the faded tritium lume on them. The dials though are new, so any dirt in the cases would be a QC fail.


QC standards vary by company.

Apparently, at Squale, that passes.

Good on W&W for their journalistic integrity, not photoshopping that out.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Without a doubt, that is one of the prettiest $650 watches on the market today.
> 
> Shame everyone is asking $1200 for it.


I suppose Squale's pricing is debatable, but the market doesn't seem to consider them vastly overpriced as far as residual values are concerned. The blue 50ATM seems to come up for sale more than anything else they make, is $830 list, and sells used in the $650-700 range. The 60ATM Squalematics are rarer, but I've seen them go up for $900-1000 or so. Contrast that with something like an Oris Diver's 65, which is $1900 list, $1300 GM, and $900 used.


----------



## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

docvail said:


> What can I clarify?
> 
> Someone said we're charging too much. I say they're welcome to think that, in fact, I want them to think that, because the alternative is everyone agrees I'm not charging too much, which is going to suck for me, my business, and ultimately, my customers.
> 
> ...


I've been following this thread, the other thread and 'that' thread. What I've learned from all of this is...you are to feckin available. Where else can people thank, batch, harangue, argue and generally be a richard head to the owner of a company? Maybe I haven't looked closely enough here in WUS to see if there are other company owners online interacting with their customers but I would be willing to bet you might be the only one. Even IF there were others, I'm guessing after these threads they will disappear into the woodwork.

I don't own one of your watches, I have no dog in the fight but the fact that you are here, explaining, answering and in general attempting to smooth feathers and enlighten not just customers but maybe future customers speaks volumes both to your character and to your business model. That people want to drag you down, call you out and in one way or another attempt to engage you in an endless and fruitless debate about issues that are not of their concern is a result of your 'availability and so, your fault. Shame on you for being accessible, attempting to be reasonable and in general trying to build a business that, in all respects is the kind of business that people want to do business with.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

It seems the Internet is full of people who know and have all the facts about how a small business should be run. Unfortunately most of those same people have never had their own business or really know anything about them. 

You sell your product, you stand behind it, you offer outstanding value. 

Love my gen 1 bracelet, especially the clasp.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

They should reopen the Ginault thread so the tools can be put to better use. 

Dude harangues doc on pricing, then says: I’ve preordered one, so it’s all good.

I’d cancel that preorder in a nanosecond. Who needs a customer like that? Hard pass.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seabee1 said:


> I've been following this thread, the other thread and 'that' thread. What I've learned from all of this is...you are to feckin available. Where else can people thank, batch, harangue, argue and generally be a richard head to the owner of a company? Maybe I haven't looked closely enough here in WUS to see if there are other company owners online interacting with their customers but I would be willing to bet you might be the only one. Even IF there were others, I'm guessing after these threads they will disappear into the woodwork.
> 
> I don't own one of your watches, I have no dog in the fight but the fact that you are here, explaining, answering and in general attempting to smooth feathers and enlighten not just customers but maybe future customers speaks volumes both to your character and to your business model. That people want to drag you down, call you out and in one way or another attempt to engage you in an endless and fruitless debate about issues that are not of their concern is a result of your 'availability and so, your fault. Shame on you for being accessible, attempting to be reasonable and in general trying to build a business that, in all respects is the kind of business that people want to do business with.


I swear this is true...

Last year, I sat down with some small business growth consultants, to do a tear-down/rebuild on my business, because I was working too hard, not making enough money, and it was clear the growth of the business had leveled off enough to see that some things needed to change.

Among other things I explained was the fact that as far as I could see, the growth of the business had been propelled by sheer will and the force of my personality, manifested by my presence online, which many perceive as so constant that they wonder when I sleep.

I explained that I would like to get the business to the point that I didn't need to be so engaged online all the time, but from what I could see, having spent tens of thousands of dollars and countless hours on digital advertising, it just didn't have enough of an ROI to ever foresee being able to disengage.

I didn't really need to explain it even that well. They could see it, having done their homework on me and my business before I came in the first day. They said, "Chris, you're way too available to these people. It should be like a rock star walking in when you enter the room. You being there all the time keeps it from being 'special'."

I gave it serious thought. It wasn't the only, and far from biggest thing we needed to fix. I also needed to delegate more, empower Aaron and Rusty to do more without me micromanaging the design process the way I'd been, get help with fielding the overwhelming amount of communication I was getting, have someone handle marketing, get someone to help me with post-sale support, and other technical tasks, like QC.

I've had ongoing debates with peers about this, many of whom are good friends.

There are brand owners who are scared - literally afraid - to come here, because of how brutal and unwelcoming this place seems. This place, Watchuseek, undeniably the most tame watch forum on the web, at least among those where English is the primary language.

Many of them think that they can replace real engagement with advertising. If they can just figure out the algorithms and dial in the numbers, it'll all work out. They'll talk about bringing on investors, to pay for the big increase in ad spend, and scale up quickly, because of the dramatic decrease in margins that happens when your CACs are 10%-20% of gross revenue.

Some think they can get by just working Instagram and Facebook. Some think it's all about schmoozing with the right bloggers.

Influencers. Affiliate marketing. The ideas are endless, and most of them don't work. Those that do don't work well. I have the numbers to prove it.

We fixed 80%-90% of what was wrong with my business. I got Rusty, Aaron, Dan, Josh, Julie, and the guys in Hong Kong all talking to each other, working together as a team. We fixed a lot of what was broken in our product development and production process. I got Julie handling 80% of my inbound emails, Josh doing 80% of the marketing, Dan does the QC and post-sale warranty work, Julie plays traffic cop, retailers are picking up a good chunk of marketing, sales and support.

We dropped digital ad spend from $30k per year down to $0. We spend absolutely nothing on ads now. Not. One. Cent.

This business is entirely driven by content, content, content (most of it produced by me), social media (mostly customer-generated content), sheer will, and the force of my personality.

We grew by 50% last year, and we didn't even start making those changes until the beginning of Q2. This year, we're on track to double, and we've launched a school to teach other startups how to get similar results. I'm working less hard, making more money, while making more people happy with what we deliver. Things are good. Really good.

Yes, I'm way too accessible online. That's what it takes to grow the business the way I have, and it brings with it the daily opportunity for the haters and trolls to do what they do. But, it's not affecting my physical or mental health, or my relationships with my family or friends, because I grew up with the pre-internet equivalent of haters and trolls, and I got used to that noise.

And, it's not having any impact on the business, at least not a negative one, that I can see. Every time we get trolled, we see a spike in traffic to our website, an increase in newsletter sign-ups, more people following us on IG or FB, more people joining our fans group. The haters and trolls were never going to be fans, so I'm not worried if they seem to multiply.

The guy who talks $hlt about me to his group of mean girls, and says he'd never buy from me? He's doing me a favor. I don't want his business. He's making himself look bad, and pushing the more reasonable minds in my direction.

I love all the support people have given me and my business. We're planning to do some really cool things with this business. The success of the business has given me some amazing opportunities to help others find success, and put a spotlight on the good work others are doing, both of which I enjoy, because they feel good.

Microbrand University, Doc's House Calls, sponsoring a watchmaking school, some other stuff we're working on - it's all about doing well while doing good, I'm having a ball doing all of it, and the more trash the haters talk, the more the trolls grind their gears, the more I know I'm having an effect. No one would bother with me if I wasn't ruffling some feathers.

There's a reason Ginault felt so threatened by me that he tried to trick people into thinking I would be involved in that nonsense. You don't see other brands being targeted the way mine is. We're pissing some people off, by making them and their cronies look bad. This is exactly what I did in my sales career. I show up, and I take over.

If I have to put up with some Keyboard Kommandos running their mouths at me, like yapping little dogs, as I stroll on by, and keep doing my thing - no problem. Small price to pay for all the awesome things happening, which I get to be a part of.


----------



## Ticktocker (Oct 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> What can I clarify?
> 
> Someone said we're charging too much. I say they're welcome to think that, in fact, I want them to think that, because the alternative is everyone agrees I'm not charging too much, which is going to suck for me, my business, and ultimately, my customers.
> 
> ...


You certainly don't need me (or anyone else) giving you their take on it but along with transparency comes guys that question certain aspects of it.

As I understand it, you are saying that you can either overcharge or undercharge. There is no reasonable charge?

Saying you only want your die hard fans to be happy and don't really care about the rest is saying you only want certain people ( as in family) to purchase your product. How is that putting "words in your mouth"?

So "How much money a business owner needs to make to feed his family shouldn't be a concern of the customer" is not a valid statement? Only a straw-man?

Commenting that you make a great watch, good quality finishing, accurate, nice designs, good customer service and adding that many other brands that charge less do so too is not insincerity. It's fact.

A business owners private life, (as in how much money you need to survive comfortably) should not be the concern of the customer when pricing a watch. If the customer thinks the product is overpriced compared to other similar products they say so without taking into account how much money Mr. Making-Other-People-Happy micro brand needs compared to how much money Mr. Here's-a-Great-Watch-micro brand. If you think that means anyone should work for free, that's whacked out thinking and talk about putting words in someones mouth.......

I certainly didn't say I want an $800 watch for $400. You are missing the point and frankly, I can tell you just have a "different" frame of mind when it comes to business. That sometimes makes for a fantastic business.

I personally don't need or desire transparency from a micro brand. I know it's pretty hip to want that now but I just want a well made watch at a good-for-me price. Not too concerned about any other aspect of the business except the final product.

Raise away! BTW, I also think a Squalmatic 60 is horribly overpriced. Along with tons of other watches, cars, houses, boats...... That doesn't mean I don't buy them. I just think they are overpriced.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> I've instructed my watchmaker to take the 9015 spec for daily variance, cut it in HALF, and pull any watch that isn't within that range out to be regulated further, which he'll do, and when he's done, the vast majority will run within COSC spec, often within 1 sec/day.
> 
> So, the absolute WORST timekeeping a watch will have when we ship it is 1/2 the manufacturer's spec.


That's useful information, thank you.



docvail said:


> We don't ship sub-standard product. Our QC standards are so tight the only complaints we get are stuff that can only be seen under high magnification, or the supremely WIS-picky stuff, like "bracelet sux", but no explanation why.


I've had to return a $1500 watch (from a well known European maker) because, on opening the box, I instantly saw a misaligned dive bezel; no magnification needed at all. Turning it and trying to align it didn't help. I was told that it was within QC for that maker, and so I had to return the watch, as the misalignment was not acceptable to me. This was extremely disappointing. I'd gone back and forth for well over a year on whether or not I wanted to spend that much money on that particular watch. And, call me crazy, but I prefer not to repeat that experience. Most manufacturers do not discuss their QC standards, so I pay attention when one (whose product I am interested in) does.

More generally, if you're going to write about your standards on a public forum, you're going to have to expect to get questions about them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ticktocker said:


> You certainly don't need me (or anyone else) giving you their take on it but along with transparency comes guys that question certain aspects of it.
> 
> As I understand it, you are saying that you can either overcharge or undercharge. There is no reasonable charge?
> 
> ...


I'll keep responding, for as long as it would seem rude not to. It would be awesome if you'd steer wide of misrepresenting what I've said in your responses.

Transparency, and guys questioning it - I'm not even sure what that means. Water is transparent. What's to question about it?

I wouldn't claim to be completely transparent about all things, because, who would be, in my position, and why would I be? I'm running a business, I have to keep some opacity for the sake of protecting it, and recently, myself and family.

But I will claim to be the most transparent microbrand owner on the planet, ever, by design, or by default. You can't post to a forum like this over 20,000 times and not reveal a lot about yourself and your business, whether you want to or not.

Who and what I am is pretty undeniable at this point, for better or worse. And, beyond revealing things about myself, I have voluntarily shed light on several aspects of my business specifically, as well as the industry generally. No one else is opening the kimono the way I am.

What aspect of my transparency did you want to ask about? Was that the topic? I thought it was prices?

Do you want to see my P&L? I'll show you. Register for MBU's next workshop, and I'll open the books, same way I did in my last workshop, wherein I delivered a semester's worth of masters-level business finance in 3 hours. I guarantee it's worth it, literally, with a money back guarantee.

I'll demonstrate why my prices aren't undercharging or overcharging, but are in fact precisely reasonable, exactly as you'd apparently like them to be. Unfortunately, most people's method of judging price fairness is "I can get the same specs cheaper somewhere else", not an in-depth analysis of cost structure and value, or any real understanding of intangible value. Nope, it's all about them specs for some guys, and those are the customers I don't want.

If you insist on misinterpreting my not wanting to cater to the bottom-feeders as my only being concerned about "keeping die hard fans happy", uhm...okay. If you can explain why I'd worry about keeping people who aren't my customers happy, and not worry about keeping my die-hard fans happy, I'm all ears.

My family's bills are not my customers' concern. But, do we not say here, "buy the seller"? I'm the seller. You're buying me. I need to be here to deliver not just the product (with all them specs you can get cheaper somewhere else), but also the pre- and post-sale support you may not get somewhere else, where they're not paying themselves enough to deliver it effectively, the way I am.

If I don't make enough to support my family, there is no business. You don't need to know what my family needs, all you need to know is that I'm charging enough to provide it. The prices we charge pay our costs, and our employees (me among them).

People who think they're too high don't know their a$$ from their elbow. No one who runs a microbrand and knows our production costs and operating costs would spout such nonsense, in public. If you don't run a business like this, then you don't know, you're just guessing, and comparing, often to a business that is slowly going out of business.

As for the compliments, and their sincerity (or lack of it), I'd be more inclined to credit them as sincere if you spent less energy twisting my words, and put a little energy into answering my questions.

Other brands offer products and services as good as mine, for less? Name them. But, before you do, please be prepared to answer my other, more specific questions, about how you value design, quality, and measure "good" support.

You can't throw a rock in this forum and not hit a story about bad service. Is the guy who isn't charging enough for his product that he can afford to run his business full time capable of delivering the same level of support we do, with me working the business full time, with staff support?

I guarantee the guy selling a watch with the same specs for half as much isn't delivering the full value we are. There's no free lunch. You don't get same-day responses and 1-day turnaround from the guy working a day job, and doing this at night, or the all-but-anonymous guy who runs the brand from the back office in a Chinese factory, who pops up every other year with another 300-piece side-project.

You want that? Okay. Go get it. There's the door. Go. I'm not stopping you. Why are you still here, flapping your gums at me? Go get that $300 watch, bruh. Hit the bricks. Leave me and my "fam" to enjoy what we're doing here. Why bring ants to our picnic? Take your ants and go.

Yes, I have a different mindset when it comes to business. Always have. On that, we could not agree more. I don't let customers treat me or my employees like a doormat. I don't let people who aren't customers lecture me about my prices or my attitude. Yes, I'm the real life Soup N4zl, and no soup for you.

The expression isn't "the customer is always right", and he isn't, anyway. The expression is "the customer is KING". You ain't a customer. You ain't no one to me until you are. Ask my CUSTOMERS how I treat them, and why they're so happy they come back for more. They know I'm working to deliver them the most happiness I can.

No, I don't give a crap about what people who aren't my customers say. Yes, I only care about pleasing my customers, because the better I do at that, the better it is for my family, the people I actually work for. Customers aren't my boss. I don't have a boss. I call my own shots.

Customers are consenting adults who enter into business transactions freely, and I go out of my way to avoid even the appearance that I'm cajoling anyone into buying from me. I put serious effort into talking people out of buying from me, when I see that they're unsure. I don't want anyone to have buyer's remorse. No one's money is that important to me. I don't want it that badly.

If I catch the slightest whiff of unhappiness, I'm on it like a doberman on a pork chop. Yes, I care a lot, and take immense pride in my long track record of delivering the goods, and the passionate following I've earned, well earned, by backing up every word I say, and over-delivering.

But, even with all that, I'm a realist. I realize no matter what I do, I can never make 100% of people happy, no matter what (no matter the prices), so that's not my goal. My goal is to please the 99.5% of people who can be pleased, and to disconnect myself from the other 0.5% of people as quickly as possible, the bottom-feeders, the self-appointed arbiters of what I'm allowed to do.

As. If.

You're clearly not the customer for my business. That's cool. Really. I'm okay with it. And no hard feelings. You like some other watch from some other brand that sells a nice product for less, and your opinion is that they're delivering the goods as well as we do. Totally fine. Why are you still here, wasting your time, pissing in my ear, telling me about it?

If you like those other brands so much more, why hurt them by being here, sharing with your opinion, which might help me, when you don't even seem like you like me?

I don't get it. But don't keep trying to explain it. I'm not worthy of your time, energy, or money. I mean it. Please, go spend your money with one of those other brands. They want it, and need it more than I do.

Please do enjoy whatever you buy from them. That's my most sincere desire for you and everyone else. Just be happy.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Speaking of GMTs, this new Squale is an absolute stunner. The red bezel/navy blue dial version is just weird, but this "robin blue" enamel/gray sunburst version is pretty spectacular. I imagine the 75 run will be gone within a day.
> 
> View attachment 14317765


Interesting. I don't recall seeing other watches with a mix of printed and applied hour markers.

Also, square markers that aren't angled? Can't decide how I feel about that.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Tanjecterly said:


> Squale and lume should not even be in the same sentence.
> 
> NTH subs are what should be discussed with lume and torch.


Nice photo. (Bahia date - not showing up for some reason.) What strap is that?

General pondering. I have a no-date and love it. But that looks pretty cool, too. A date is handy and I like that red surround. I'm not going to, but I wonder if anyone ever buys the same watch in both date and no-date.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Last night, wife-ish got up in the middle of the night, right around 3:20am. How do I know? Scorpene lume... Not as nuclear bright as fresh-charged or just in from being outside in the sun, but plenty bright to read at night from a dead sleep.


"-ish"?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Doc, just be careful of the optics when doing these long replies. Some things ultimately don't need to be said.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I will be a customer when Chris decides he needs to raise prices, full stop.

Every watch I have owned, whether it’s a $40 Timex or a $4,000 Speedy, are luxuries. My phone can tell me the time too. But you know what? Chris is one of the only brand owners who will engage, let me into some part of his crazy world, and that (to me) has value.

Additionally, the NTH Holland I own (and have bought twice!), is one of the only watches my wife was attached to my hip when I was looking at NTH originally... and I quote: “I'm so excited! That felt like the one as soon as I saw it.“

Chris has a great product and a great brand and is someone I *want* to give my money to. And I’ll do it again (and again).

Peace.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I usually find myself reading the walls and wondering if there is no limit to what I'll slog through just for completeness. Turns out there is a limit. The one just above was over it. Hope there wasn't anything important in there. ;-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> That's useful information, thank you.
> 
> I've had to return a $1500 watch (from a well known European maker) because, on opening the box, I instantly saw a misaligned dive bezel; no magnification needed at all. Turning it and trying to align it didn't help. I was told that it was within QC for that maker, and so I had to return the watch, as the misalignment was not acceptable to me. This was extremely disappointing. I'd gone back and forth for well over a year on whether or not I wanted to spend that much money on that particular watch. And, call me crazy, but I prefer not to repeat that experience. Most manufacturers do not discuss their QC standards, so I pay attention when one (whose product I am interested in) does.
> 
> More generally, if you're going to write about your standards on a public forum, you're going to have to expect to get questions about them.


That sucks. Sorry to hear, sincerely. And I do understand how that must feel, and the pain in the a$$ involved in having to send something back.

Just my personal take - as a manufacturer, and out of necessity, I've come to understand why perfection simply isn't a viable QC standard for our business. But, I'm not trying to tell you or anyone else to accept less than perfection. What I do ask is that people who expect perfection do exactly what you did upon receipt of the watch.

You did the right thing. You inspected the goods before altering the condition, didn't like what you saw, contacted them to raise your concern with them, and when you were told the issue you raises was within their standards, you sent it back, probably at your shipping expense, not theirs, which no doubt only seared the experience into your memory, even though, again, as a seller, I understand why that would be their policy.

Let's you and I clear the air, and start fresh, if that's possible. I'll explain that QC standards are too expansive a topic for me to explain all of them, as well as the reasoning for them. I don't really want to provide a public crash-course in QC for my competitors, nor do I want to create an open invitation for every troll and hater to seize on the opportunity to debate our QC standards.

But, I'll ask you, nay, invite you, to ask me if you've got something specific you would like to know, if A) you're sincerely interested in our standards because you might consider being a customer, or B) you're not interested in becoming a customer, but you appreciate my willingness to shed light on the topic, so that you can make more informed decisions about being someone else's customer. I honestly don't mind when people ask me questions with that purpose. I want people to make informed decisions, and improve their odds of finding happiness post-purchase.

Seems like bezel alignment is the implied question here?

Mathematically, the most the insert on a 120-click bezel could be mis-aligned is 0.4%. That's the worst that's mathematically possible.

If you got one from us that was that bad, and you brought it to our attention after you've been wearing it, you own it. I'm not even discussing it with you.

Why? Because it's 0.4%, and an under $700 watch. I have an entire folder on my hard drive of mis-aligned bezels in watches costing 10x-20x as much. The inserts are installed by hand. We have to have some reasonable tolerance for variation and deviation from 100% perfect.

If it's off by half a click, or 0.4%, it's also 99.6% of perfect. Good enough.

Now, if you have NOT worn it. I'll take it back, and issue you a refund. No, I'm not paying return shipping, for the same reason the store doesn't pay for your gas when you return something you don't like.

This isn't a defect. It's within our standards. If it's not a defect, we were good to ship. You decided it wasn't to YOUR standards, but you don't get to dictate OUR standards to us.

I'm not "fixing it under warranty". There's nothing to fix. It's within standards. The warranty is for mechanical malfunction only. I'm putting it right back into inventory for sale.

I'm not replacing it, or looking for a better one in my inventory. Every piece in my inventory went through 6 rounds of QC. I'm not doing a 7th because someone is OCD. All my inventory is in our warehouse anyway. I can't inspect it again, even if I wanted to.

I'm not screwing around, arguing with anyone about what is or isn't a defect. Been there, done that. It's all cut-and-dry now. The returns policy is immutable. Send it back for a refund, we'll inspect the condition, and process the refund within 24 hours of getting our hands on the watch.

We've gotten extremely few returns, but, it does happen sometimes. I don't take it personally. Seriously, I don't want you keeping the watch if you're not happy with it. I certainly don't want you going online to complain about it. I'd rather give you back your money. Just do the right thing, and ask about whatever you find when you get the watch. Don't come at me 3 weeks later, after you put it under an electron microscope, or whatever.

From my perspective, the return policy isn't just fair, it's sort of obvious. If we missed something in QC, something "obvious", why the hell would you be wearing it? Do you watch a defective TV, or wear defective clothes, then bring them back a month later, looking for your money back, a replacement, or a warranty repair?

Now, having said all that, most inserts are perfectly aligned, or damned close. The worst ones, we can work on them a little, even if the watch is worn. If a customer is cool, not acting like we kicked his dog, we'll do what we can to sort things out with no one getting bent out of shape. A little courtesy and patience will go a long way with me and my team.

That's OUR standard, and mode of operation.

But, QC standards aren't universal. Part of the reason I flew to China last year was to meet with every vendor, and get neck-deep into their QC standards and processes. Like I said above, it's too expansive a topic to cover it all here. My primary vendor showed me 7 pages of checklists they use to QC every component pre-assembly, and every watch post-assembly. They check $hlt I'd never even think to check.

On top of that, there are some things that are negotiated. Like your bezel inserts, but also handset alignment, or color variations, or finishing quality, play in moving parts, alignment of parts, etc. Perfection isn't their standard. Sometimes we have to have a bit of a "Come to *****" talk about something.

I think you asked me about handset alignment recently. I'm sure I was a bit prickly in my response, for reasons I've now explained. But, as I said, the standard we use is +/- 3 minutes, meaning that the minute hand has to be within 3 minutes of 60 when the hour hand is bang on the hour marker. I don't know if that's another company's standard, I only know it's ours.

Everyone who complains throws price into it, like, "For what I paid, it should be PERFECT", but, that doesn't make sense, really. Somebody's whole lot of money is another body's not much money. The standards we use are the standards we use. There's no price at which the laws of physics and large numbers cease to function.

I've QC'd a few thousand watches, and had hands on probably 10,000, including some which cost 5x-50x what ours do. I was shocked to see some of the stuff wrong with much more expensive watches, things I know we'd never pass along to the customer. 99% of what we deliver is 100% perfect. The other 1% that isn't 100% is 99.5%, at worst.

Now, that said, I do agree that QC standards should get tighter as the company's markups from cost go up. That's easier for me to know than you. As a consumer, you don't know a company's costs, so you can't really know their markups.

But, you know when you're paying a premium for a name brand (like paying $1200 for a Squalematic 60), so you know they can afford to tighten up their QC. It's not about the absolute price you pay, per se. Because a company working with a higher price may not necessarily be working off a higher markup.

I'll give everyone what I think is a good example of a company that gives customers more when they pay for, in terms of QC - Monta.

I had a conversation with Justin from Monta, and we talked a bit about QC. Justin feels strongly that with the prices they charge, the watch has to be PERFECT, despite the fact that Monta isn't operating with the higher markups of some well known brands charging even more.

If you get a Monta, but then you find that the date window isn't perfectly plumb, or the lume has a rough patch, or whatever, they'll sort it out for you, no problem, even if you've been wearing it. They'll replace the dial, the hands, get it running within COSC, whatever.

Their customers are paying for that, and Monta rightfully calls itself a luxury/premium microbrand. If I was selling a $1500-$2000 watch, I'd probably be more inclined to fix a bezel insert that's 0.4% away from perfect alignment, or re-set hands that are more than 1 minute out of alignment.

I'm not beating my chest that the watches we sell are perfect. I just want peeps to keep things reasonable. I sell watches for less than $700, and customers routinely tell me they compare well with watches costing a lot more. Not all customers. I mean, I still get Gabe and others who don't mind keeping me from getting a big head.

I think Montas are even nicer. Justin's team are rightfully proud of what they produce, but they better be, because they're 2x-3x what we charge, and people will call them out on it if the quality doesn't justify the higher price.

I sincerely hope all that is useful info for you, whatever the use may be, and that we can call it a first step in burying the hatchet. I want no quarrels with anyone. This is one I'm happy to put to rest.


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

Chris, how many keyboard do you go thru each year? I'm sure that's a part of the rising cost of the end product.

As far as

"But how is "hands are brighter than the markers" (when both are very bright) or "lume glows so bright that it looks green, even in the daylight" something people would even complain about? "

... goes (since that was relevant to my posting earlier), its simple: It doesn't look nearly as pretty to me with "green", compared to flat cream or white. I don't have any functional need for a lumed bezel insert. I would 100% absolutely prefer a non-lumed bezel insert - but since no one makes a NTH 'Cuda in brown, without said lumed bezel, I'm SOL. 

There are enough pictures of your watches online, in a world of different situations, that any potential buyer has the possibility to inform themselves before purchase - but even so, it isn't until the watch is on the wrist, that the whole truth is revealed.

Luckily a bezel insert is, depending on the size and availabiliy of replacement parts of course, something I can replace.

_You wouldn't happen to have some spare bezels laying around one could procure?_ Then I don't have to risk damage to the original insert. Or maybe I'll just stealth it out with a sharpie...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

3WR said:


> "-ish"?


Live together, not married, might as well be my wife for how we act together, but "girlfriend" just doesn't work with both of us in our 50s and in a long-term, committed relationship with each other.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

3WR said:


> Nice photo. (Bahia date - not showing up for some reason.) What strap is that?
> 
> General pondering. I have a no-date and love it. But that looks pretty cool, too. A date is handy and I like that red surround. I'm not going to, but I wonder if anyone ever buys the same watch in both date and no-date.


Hirsch Arne black/brown. It's awesome. More expensive than most but soft and looks great.


----------



## FrankDerek (Dec 13, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Live together, not married, might as well be my wife for how we act together, but "girlfriend" just doesn't work with both of us in our 50s and in a long-term, committed relationship with each other.


Something, something, John Mulaney quote...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

A chuffin crap week, TFIF, time for a watch pic......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

RPDK said:


> Chris, how many keyboard do you go thru each year? I'm sure that's a part of the rising cost of the end product.
> 
> As far as
> 
> ...


He could send you 100, and they'd all be within 99.6% of the one you have.

Go get a sharpie.

Doc is a savage in the box.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Another favorite.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> Live together, not married, might as well be my wife for how we act together, but "girlfriend" just doesn't work with both of us in our 50s and in a long-term, committed relationship with each other.


No worries. "*****" fits. https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=6251716

Edit: meaning the Swedish word, of course. Have just been informed that it may mean smth much worse in the us.


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

hwa said:


> He could send you 100, and they'd all be within 99.6% of the one you have.
> 
> Go get a sharpie.
> 
> ...


I'm not looking for another perfectly lumed insert, I'm looking for some that aren't. Demo/test/fails/scraps whatever.


----------



## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I want one of Docs watches but honestly I really don't like wearing homages. Which watch is the least homagie (homagey) in the forums opinion?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



City74 said:


> I want one of Docs watches but honestly I really don't like wearing homages. Which watch is the least homagie (homagey) in the forums opinion?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Omega Speedmaster Pro.

Yer welcome.

Ric


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

RPDK said:


> I'm not looking for another perfectly lumed insert, I'm looking for some that aren't. Demo/test/fails/scraps whatever.


Oh. You want doc to send failed parts to you, so you can mod your watch! Hahahahaha

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ric Capucho said:


> Omega Speedmaster Pro.
> 
> Yer welcome.
> 
> Ric


I was gonna answer, "Riccardo," but yours is better.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Interesting. I don't recall seeing other watches with a mix of printed and applied hour markers.
> 
> Also, square markers that aren't angled? Can't decide how I feel about that.


It's definitely not unheard of. The first gen Monta OK and Triumph also used applied markers at 3, 9, and 12, and printed for the rest. Then there are watches like Chris Ward's C1 that use alternating. Plenty of vintage Squales were done that way.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Live together, not married, might as well be my wife for how we act together, but "girlfriend" just doesn't work with both of us in our 50s and in a long-term, committed relationship with each other.


Even though I'm married, I often wonder what one would call their long time/long term partner outside the bounds of matrimony . You Sirs have solved a perplexing problem. Hence forth all individuals, female or male, who are the 'other' person in a long term committed relationship can now be referred to as "Ish". So brilliant in it's concept. Short, mono-syllable, and easy to pronounce since it's not French. What more could one ask for?


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> Live together, not married, might as well be my wife for how we act together, but "girlfriend" just doesn't work with both of us in our 50s and in a long-term, committed relationship with each other.


SO? As in "significant other?"

Edit: SWMBO, as in she who must be obeyed. Also works for a wife.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Maybe that right there is the real driver of all the madness.
> 
> You dive? You need a watch with lume, and the lume has to work, or you might die. Does it work? Yes? Then we're good here.
> 
> You don't dive? What do you need lume for? 4am trips to the bathroom? While you're walking and getting that stream started, you got time to notice if it's all evenly bright, don't ya? What else can we see? Maybe we ought to put it under a microscope, and see if the lume has any rough spots at 10x magnification. Oh boy, what's that on the edge of the hour hand? A tool mark? How did they miss that in QC? Better go find that email you got, with the invitation to write a review...


We're not buying tools. Tools are utilitarian items.

We're buying jewelry that masquerades as a tool.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Set the watch on Monday when I received it, wore it all week.









Pretty much at +1spd over 5 days, from new. I'm gonna call that pretty darn OK.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

MikeyT said:


> SO? As in "significant other?"
> 
> Edit: SWMBO, as in she who must be obeyed. Also works for a wife.


All appropriate, but awkward in conversation.

Sometimes I use "partner," especially if I'm dealing with someone I know to be slightly homophobic, but who doesn't know my partner is necessarily female...


----------



## Ticktocker (Oct 27, 2009)

docvail said:


> I'll keep responding, for as long as it would seem rude not to. It would be awesome if you'd steer wide of misrepresenting what I've said in your responses.
> 
> Transparency, and guys questioning it - I'm not even sure what that means. Water is transparent. What's to question about it?
> 
> ...


You, my friend, are another stable genius of yuge qualities.... That post ^ proves much more than it's 9000 words say (if anyone can get past the not knowing what transparency means part and then explaining how you are the most transparent). A biggly, yuge, stablest of biggly geniuses. A biggly, stable genius to the NTH degree..........

Medic!......We need a Medic!


----------



## ftrez (Jun 23, 2014)

I just saw on another forum an alibaba link to a watch that is a dead ringer for the Nth DevilRay.

Sorry if doc and others are already aware of this but I'm so disgusted by all of the blatant rip offs I've been seeing lately that I felt compelled to post.

I don't know if anything can be done but wanted to make sure you knew, doc, in the event that there is. Hopefully it's not coming directly out of the factory used to manufacture the watches but it sucks nonetheless.


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

ftrez said:


> I just saw on another forum an alibaba link to a watch that is a dead ringer for the Nth DevilRay.
> 
> Sorry if doc and others are already aware of this but I'm so disgusted by all of the blatant rip offs I've been seeing lately that I felt compelled to post.
> 
> I don't know if anything can be done but wanted to make sure you knew, doc, in the event that there is. Hopefully it's not coming directly out of the factory used to manufacture the watches but it sucks nonetheless.


You can find anything on alibaba, any microbrand watches. They are usually fake listings


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Forever8895 said:


> You can find anything on alibaba, any microbrand watches. They are usually fake listings


They tend to be offers to build 300 or 500, rather than listings for watches available for purchase.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

RPDK said:


> Chris, how many keyboard do you go thru each year? I'm sure that's a part of the rising cost of the end product.


ok, i DID laugh out loud at this one. a little humor to take the edge off of some of these topics goes a long way


----------



## sobwanhoser (Feb 8, 2014)

docvail said:


> No one else is opening the kimono the way I am.


While an enjoyable read, the only thing I can remember about this post was this [email protected]$#! Can't un-do that.....it is really too early in the morning for me to start drinking....:-d


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Finally caught up on this thread after a few days of caring for a new puppy dog. He's currently napping.

Happen to be wearing 2 of my dozen or more NTH....the vintage Amphion and...



Yes, usually wear 2 watches, afterall, have two wrists and a boatload of watches in rotation.





While walking the pooch, noticed that both bird nests under my back deck have Robins as occupants, and the Robins Egg Blue Squale email caught my eye. Actually like the watch, flaws and all but The price is a dealbreaker.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RPDK said:


> Chris, how many keyboard do you go thru each year? I'm sure that's a part of the rising cost of the end product.
> 
> As far as
> 
> ...


I buy my keyboards in bulk.

Honestly, I wasn't reading your earlier comment about the bezel as a complaint. It just happened to remind me of some lume-based complaints I've read, and the thought train left the station at full steam.

I get what you're saying, I think.

There's a thought process we went through when we were determining materials, and we still go through it when considering lume colors.

Happy to elaborate, for those interested. I'll try to keep it simple...

"What should the bezel material be?"

Embedded in that question is whether or not we want to lume the markers. We decided we did, because we view that as a functional advantage.

Although I've since seen aluminum inserts which are lumed, at that time, I was told it couldn't be done, so the choices were narrowed to steel, ceramic, or sapphire.

I'm on record with what I see as the pros and cons of each. We had good results with the steel inserts on the Phantom, and my primary vendor, whose advice I trust, recommended steel, helping me to understand his reasons, which came to be my reasons.

So, steel inserts, with color gained by way of PVD/DLC. Now we have to choose lume pigments for each Subs version.

First, I need to point out that we're often taking inspiration from designs with non lumed aluminum inserts. The markers are often metallic gray, just the underlying metal showing through the top layer of anodized color. It raises the question - if we're going to lume the insert, and we want it bright, but also look "right", is that lume going to be white, even if that doesn't match the lume on the dials and hands, or do we use the same lume all over, so that it matches (in theory...)?

With the first 8 designs, we found that the lume color was pretty consistent when both the lume and the underlying material were monochromatic. White lume on a black bezel might be incrementally darker than on the hands or markers, but your brain still reads it as white.

But as soon as we added blue or other colors to the dials and inserts, we found that the lume color appearance varied a lot. My factory warned me that the "natural" color would be especially yellow. On the vintage Näckens, it wasn't too yellow on the dial or hands, but it was a much darker canary yellow on the v.1 prototype bezels.

We found similar results with the "old Radium" lume on the Oberon and Santa Cruz. No bueno.

So, we had to do some trial and error to figure out which lume colors to use on the bezels to complement those used on the hands and dials. We limited, if not eliminated our use of both natural and old Radium on inserts, and focused on either C3, or BGW9.

C3 looks a little yellow, and glows green. BG W9 is white, and glows blue. We have to consider how each complements the other lume on hands and dial, as well as how each is affected by the color of the underlying surface, and how each looks overall, as compared to how we want it to look.

This is just hard to explain maybe, but, with something like the Barracuda Brown, I think we made the best possible compromise. The C3, when it's not glowing, looks better than it would if the bezel markers were pure white, IMO, and I know they wouldn't even be pure white, because the color underneath is brown. They'd be like a muddy tan color.

The downside is that the lume is so damned good, it often looks greenish, even when not in the dark, because people's eyes can detect the glow, affecting their perception of the color. On that model, I didn't see the upside in using white lume.

On others, like the Odin, I decided to use C3 on the dial and hands, because I think it looks better than stark white would (we had BG W9 on dials and hands with the v.1 protos), but kept the white lume on the bezels, because I knew that would look better, even if the two lume colors don't match, in the light or the dark. Again, I know that annoys some, but I think it was the best possible compromise. It looks right to me, so that's what we did.

We don't sell inserts or any other parts on demand. We have limited spares, which we reserve for repairs, as needed. We don't do customizations or support them.

I'm not being a jerk when I tell everyone to love the watch as it is or don't buy it. I want everyone to love what they get, and not regret getting it, because of that one little thing they don't like and wish was different. That's like marrying someone you think you can change or learn to overlook the obvious. That's not how it works. It doesn't lead to happiness, and the frustration becomes contagious when someone tries to change another person, or starts asking me to help them change a design.

I just want everyone to be happy. If you (everyone) don't like the watch, don't buy it, or if you already did, sell it and get something else you'll like more. No hard feelings from me.

It's okay to not like a design. It's not okay to make it a problem for me, when I do all I can to make sure people know:

1. Exactly what they're getting.

2. It's not changing.

3. I don't want you to buy it if you're not convinced you'll love it.

4. You can send it back for a refund if you don't like it on arrival.

5. We don't support mods and don't do customizations.

6. We put a lot of thought into it, and it's kind of irritating to have someone piss in my ear about how much better it would be if we did it some other way, when I know we already considered the idea and rejected it, and my risk in pursuing bad ideas is potentially infinite, compared to theirs, which is nil. This is high stakes for me.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Alright, honest question to Doc and the rest of you:

Beyond the clear examples where a watch's finishing has genuine, immediately recognizable WOW factor--I'm talkin' bout those sexeh Grand Seiko cases with all their angles to show off the beautiful high-polish effect--how do you evaluate the finishing on a watch? Okay, certain kinds of brushing can look inferior and there can be cases where there's bad definition, and certain cases can also have more elaborate angles and juxtaposition of textures.

But I'm talking about how are you distinguishing between, say, the finishing on an Oris versus the finishing on a Longines versus the finishing on a Tudor? Watches where there's not a night-and-day difference. Are there *specific* things your eyes are looking for or is it really just an arbitrary "this looks expensive/this doesn't look expensive" call? Because most folks on here say "The finishing is tremendous" or "The finishing isn't as good as on Watch X" without singling out any of the aspects are supposedly superior or inferior.


----------



## Tjcdas (Mar 12, 2018)

docvail said:


> That sucks. Sorry to hear, sincerely. And I do understand how that must feel, and the pain in the a$$ involved in having to send something back.
> 
> Just my personal take - as a manufacturer, and out of necessity, I've come to understand why perfection simply isn't a viable QC standard for our business. But, I'm not trying to tell you or anyone else to accept less than perfection. What I do ask is that people who expect perfection do exactly what you did upon receipt of the watch.
> 
> ...


Little math error the most a 120 click bezel is 25% the error in 1 minute not 60.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Tjcdas said:


> Little math error the most a 120 click bezel is 25% the error in 1 minute not 60.


Boy o boy, those grammar errors far exceed any math mistakes. But hey, divide 360 by the number of clicks, divide that in half. That's the max alignment error.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Agent Sands said:


> Alright, honest question to Doc and the rest of you:
> 
> Beyond the clear examples where a watch's finishing has genuine, immediately recognizable WOW factor--I'm talkin' bout those sexeh Grand Seiko cases with all their angles to show off the beautiful high-polish effect--how do you evaluate the finishing on a watch? Okay, certain kinds of brushing can look inferior and there can be cases where there's bad definition, and certain cases can also have more elaborate angles and juxtaposition of textures.
> 
> But I'm talking about how are you distinguishing between, say, the finishing on an Oris versus the finishing on a Longines versus the finishing on a Tudor? Watches where there's not a night-and-day difference. Are there *specific* things your eyes are looking for or is it really just an arbitrary "this looks expensive/this doesn't look expensive" call? Because most folks on here say "The finishing is tremendous" or "The finishing isn't as good as on Watch X" without singling out any of the aspects are supposedly superior or inferior.


About an hour ago (it took me a while to get caught up on this thread) I responded to a thread on Affordables about being able to read the date on your watch. Your question made me think of that thread.

1. Until I really started reading WUS it never even occurred to me to critically examine the "finishing" or other details on my watches.

2. My near-sight without reading glasses is average at best. I can read a book in sunlight, but indoors it is getting increasingly difficult to read print without glasses. All of which is to say that most of the details in finishing are completely lost on me at any given time.

I sometimes feel like we WIS have to search for things to obsess over because otherwise there wouldn't be enough to complain about. I dunno, I guess I sort of lack that level of attention to detail in everything in my life. I probably shouldn't have even responded, questions like yours aren't really meant for people like me.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Avo said:


> I've had to return a $1500 watch (from a well known European maker) because, on opening the box, I instantly saw a misaligned dive bezel; no magnification needed at all. Turning it and trying to align it didn't help. I was told that it was within QC for that maker, and so I had to return the watch, as the misalignment was not acceptable to me. .


Since when are Seiko divers made in Europe? ;-)


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> You did the right thing. You inspected the goods before altering the condition, didn't like what you saw, contacted them to raise your concern with them, and when you were told the issue you raises was within their standards, you sent it back, probably at your shipping expense, not theirs, which no doubt only seared the experience into your memory, even though, again, as a seller, I understand why that would be their policy.


Thanks for the thorough reply. As a customer, I completely agree that it is my responsibility to thoroughly inspect a new watch for any non-perfections that are important to me, while removing/disturbing as little of the packaging as possible, and reporting to the seller any concerns/issues before going any further. I always do this, including fully winding the watch and letting it run down to zero over a couple of days before removing any packaging that is not absolutely necessary to remove (e.g., the plastic sticker on the watch face, which I carefully set aside for re-application if needed).

In the case I was describing, the seller (an AD for the manufacturer) kindly paid return shipping (original shipping was also paid by him), which made me much more likely to buy from him again (and indeed I have another watch, from a different manufacturer, on order from him). But I understand that not all sellers will want to do this, especially at lower price points.

And, just for the record, I don't believe that I'm ridiculously picky. I currently own six watches with dive bezels, ranging in price from $150 to $750, all of which arrived aligned to within my standards.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tjcdas said:


> Little math error the most a 120 click bezel is 25% the error in 1 minute not 60.


360 degrees in a circle / 120 clicks = each click is 3 degrees.

The bezel can only be off by 1/2 a click, at most. Otherwise, keep turning. 1/2 of a click = 1.5 degrees.

1.5 / 360 = 0.4%.

If that doesn't make sense, just divide 1/2 of a click by 120. You'll get the same number (hint, it's 0.4%).

But what do I know? I'm just the guy who makes watches.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Thanks for the thorough reply. As a customer, I completely agree that it is my responsibility to thoroughly inspect a new watch for any non-perfections that are important to me, while removing/disturbing as little of the packaging as possible, and reporting to the seller any concerns/issues before going any further. I always do this, including fully winding the watch and letting it run down to zero over a couple of days before removing any packaging that is not absolutely necessary to remove (e.g., the plastic sticker on the watch face, which I carefully set aside for re-application if needed).
> 
> In the case I was describing, the seller (an AD for the manufacturer) kindly paid return shipping (original shipping was also paid by him), which made me much more likely to buy from him again (and indeed I have another watch, from a different manufacturer, on order from him). But I understand that not all sellers will want to do this, especially at lower price points.
> 
> And, just for the record, *I don't believe that I'm ridiculously picky*. I currently own six watches with dive bezels, ranging in price from $150 to $750, all of which arrived aligned to within my standards.


I try not to judge other people's pickiness, particularly not when they, like you, recognize their own desire for perfection, and are willing to pause long enough to inspect a new arrival before making it impossible for me to accept a return.

That said, I think it's logical to expect better quality as you go up in price, even while I know you don't always get it, and even when you do, there's a diminishing returns problem, whereby you don't see a linear rise in quality versus price.

I don't know what the rate is, and maybe it varies for different things, but I do know that it starts immediately, from the first dollar. A $200 watch isn't going to be twice as nice as a $100 watch, so a $1000 watch won't be twice as nice as a $500 watch. In fact, the $200 watch will probably have a more noticeable advantage over the $100 watch than the $1000 watch has over the $500 watch.

There's no price at which the laws of physics and the limits of manufacturing and human assembly cease to apply. At best, a company that charges a large enough premium for its product can afford to overcome those limits with tighter QC. In a nutshell, Rolex can afford to throw one in a dumpster. We can't.

If someone expects perfection, at any price, and I do mean ANY price, I accept that as their expectation, and I don't try to argue with them about why it's not reasonable. All I try to do is get them to follow the logic you clearly follow - it's up to each of us to INSPECT what we EXPECT (and do that before you alter the condition, at which point, all bets are off).

I wish all customers were as patient and diligent, but I know the vast majority aren't. I just look at it as a numbers game. 99% of what we ship is 100% perfect, the other 1% we ship is within 0.5% of perfect (and within our QC standards). Most, maybe 99.5% of my customers either aren't expecting 100% perfection, or aren't going to notice the 0.5% deviation from it, or are mature enough to accept it if they find it, without losing their $hlt about it.

Maybe 0.5% of customers are insane enough to think it's okay to wear a watch for some length of time, then come back weeks or months later and complain about some tiny stuff they found under high magnification, acting as if we missed it in QC, despite how "obvious" it is. If it was so obvious, why were they wearing it all that time?

The odds are in my favor, and the returns policy is both clear and fair. No matter what it is, the time to address it is on delivery.

Only as an aside, related to what your AD did in your situation - if we do ship something with an issue we legitimately missed in QC, something not within our QC standards, I am quick to apologize for both our mistake and the inconvenience it causes the customer. In that case, we do pay return shipping, because I see it as our responsibility to cover the cost of our own mistake.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Alright, honest question to Doc and the rest of you:
> 
> Beyond the clear examples where a watch's finishing has genuine, immediately recognizable WOW factor--I'm talkin' bout those sexeh Grand Seiko cases with all their angles to show off the beautiful high-polish effect--how do you evaluate the finishing on a watch? Okay, certain kinds of brushing can look inferior and there can be cases where there's bad definition, and certain cases can also have more elaborate angles and juxtaposition of textures.
> 
> But I'm talking about how are you distinguishing between, say, the finishing on an Oris versus the finishing on a Longines versus the finishing on a Tudor? Watches where there's not a night-and-day difference. Are there *specific* things your eyes are looking for or is it really just an arbitrary "this looks expensive/this doesn't look expensive" call? Because most folks on here say "The finishing is tremendous" or "The finishing isn't as good as on Watch X" without singling out any of the aspects are supposedly superior or inferior.


Uhm...it depends.

I'm certain some people's "quality" judgments are really about their preferences. Like, some people think a sharp edge is a mark of quality, some think the opposite. Since I understand either may be an option we can specify, I tend to look at it as how well either option is executed, which anyone can do, if they can separate their preferences from objective assessments.

Some finishing is just bad. If you run your finger over a surface, an you detect bumps or snags, that's no bueno. It's harder to judge two brushed or polished surfaces where there are no obvious problems. Also, while you might get ONE piece that has a problem, for me as the manufacturer, that may be the ONE in 1,000 we missed, and so it's just something we missed, not a more representative indication of our quality than the 999 pieces which had no such issue.

Again, we're getting into diminishing returns when you start to compare the finishing on watches once you get above a certain level. Price really doesn't tell you. Our case factory can deliver a level of finishing from Longines on the low end to Panerai on the high end. We're on the high end, but we charge less than a Longines. Price isn't the only measure of quality, quality isn't the only driver of price.

What's the difference between the two? Honestly, the vast majority of people, including many working within the production side of the industry, and some who are "recognized experts" couldn't explain it to you. I can't explain it to you. You'd have to have two samples in hand, to see and feel the difference.

And, even if you had them, the differences are incremental, not dramatic, because diminishing returns, and the psychology which activates when we inject prices and emotional baggage into this situation. If those case samples were just industrial parts, we'd be less likely to have our minds trick us into seeing something that isn't there, or overlooking what clearly is there.

When people online are saying the finishing on something is amazing, what they're often saying is "I made an expensive purchase, but I need to rationalize it by telling you I got something for my extra $$," or "I was in a luxury boutique, and boy, could I smell the luxury."

Don't believe me? Ask anyone what qualifies them to judge the finishing. I see guys raving about the finishing on watches I've held and examined up close, and found to be total crap. I've seen guys who I think of as experienced collectors overlooking tragically obvious issues, because they dropped a good bit of $$ on something. I never want to be the one to point the issues out to them.

I work in the business. I make this stuff. I'm not the finishing expert. Someone who's bought a few dozen watches in their time probably isn't, either.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Thinking about that Squale, with its enamel bezel, made me think of Chip's upcoming Huldra, all but one version of which also have enamel bezels...









*EDIT - The Huldra is 42mm, not 40mm.*

I mean, it's your money, spend it how you want. If you see $1100-$1200 value in the Squale, buy it. Don't let anyone tell you it's overpriced, just because there are micros selling nicer watches, with better specs/components, for less. And I don't just mean the Huldra. Look at the H20 Tiburon, that thing is gorgeous. $700. Apparently Steinhart has a variety of amazing-value watches, or so I've been informed.

It's just hard for me to understand all the talk about this or that microbrand being over-priced, when you add up the specs (and ignore everything else), when there are watches like the Squale selling for twice as much. Is muh heritage really worth that much more? What's that add to the performance? How is it that micros are just the sum of their parts list, but heritage brands aren't?

You're going to break my balls about being 20% more than my competitors, who are struggling, but give a pass to Squale, and similar brands, who are 100% more, and aren't delivering as well as we are?

I could make a watch better than the Squale, in every way, and sell it for $700-$800 (and still make money on it). Chip's making something similar, and in my opinion, pretty compelling, but it's 1/3-1/2 as much.

It's all a big game. People see the prices, and make up a story they tell themselves, to justify what they think of the price. Then they run around the internet telling everyone else what's over-priced or great value.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I wonder if my parents think they overpaid for me... 


Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Finally obtained one. I can now focus on the vanguard

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tjcdas (Mar 12, 2018)

One minute is 3° your error is based on this not 360°. 

You only have a 3° window to get the bezel insert correct not 360.

You are the watch guy but that does not make your math correct, you could put on the insert with your eyes closed and get .4° error.

QC team needs to talk to other watch guys.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Man, did this one get stuck in my head...



Tjcdas said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > Tjcdas said:
> ...


I gotta do a deeper dive here...

I can't even figure out how you get to 25% on this one. If you said 50%, I'd have bought it. One half of one click is 50% of a click, so...that would sort of make sense.

It would also mean a watch losing 1/2 a second per day is off by 50% (1/2 a second being 50% of a second), which is insane, but at least mathematically, it can almost be defended, and I'd buy it if you told me you got confused by all the numbers.

If you said each click is half a minute, and 0.5 of a minute / 60 minutes = 0.8%, I'd have bought it. It would still be wrong, because the insert can't be off by an entire click (again, keep turning, to the next click), but, I'd have been able to figure out how you got there.

But, 25%? Nope. That one will haunt me. I may not sleep tonight.

All that trying to figure out what the hell was going on did make me realize that maybe expressing the QC standard for allowable deviation in bezel insert alignment as a percentage may not be the best way to express it.

I mean...okay, the maximum possible deviation is half a click, so, if we made half a click 100% (the maximum possible), an insert that was off by the most might be said to be off by 100%. Still not 25%, but, logically, I can start to see where the trouble may have started.

But we're not talking about the job performance of the person doing the assembly here, we're talking about user experience. Assembly standards are pass/fail. Something that is off by up to 100% of the maximum allowable is a pass. It's only a fail if it's OVER 100% off.

So then that brings up what should be the maximum allowable variation from perfect, which is a whole separate discussion to be had, between me and my vendors, and then, if it comes up, between me and my customer.

If someone is complaining that their user experience is a bezel misaligned by the absolute most it can possibly be (1/2 a click), I have to have some way to put that into some sort of context. These are visual observations. No one scrutinizes the visual appearance of a bezel in some bizzaro-world increments of measurement: "30-seconds, visually, of space (equal to your Earthling measurements of 1/2 a click)".

That doesn't make any sense. You look at the bezel as a whole. The whole is a circle, 360 degrees, and the max deviation from perfect (an insert with markers smack dab in the middle of two clicks, instead of bang on each click), when represented as a percentage of the whole, is 0.4%. That's just math.

To use something analogous, someone asked about handset alignment. It's +/- 3 minutes. A handset could be off by 100% of that, all 3 of those minutes, and it would still be a pass. If someone complains, I'd try to frame it the same way - there are 60 minutes in an hour, your handset is within 5% of perfect (3 minutes being 5% of 60 minutes), or, to put it another way, 95% of perfect, just like a watch losing 30 seconds out of 86,400 per day is 99.97% of perfect.

PS/EDIT - Just FYI, if 3 degrees is the maximum (it isn't, 1.5 is, but, you think it is, so, I'm going with it), 0.4 degrees off would be 13%, still not 25%, but maybe you should lay off the math before you break the internet.

PPS/EDIT 2 - I just realized you said 4°, not 0.4°, which is even more insane when combined with the incorrect belief that the max deviation is 3°, because that would be 133%, which is just impossible, when you're talking about a rotating part. Is a bezel insert with the triangle pointed at 6, instead of 12, off by 6000%?

Again, if you're off by that much, keep turning.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I wonder if my parents think they overpaid for me...
> 
> Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


Don't offer them their money back, whatever you do...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tjcdas said:


> One minute is 3° your error is based on this not 360°.
> 
> You only have a 3° window to get the bezel insert correct not 360.
> 
> ...


Literally, you don't know what you're talking about.

You can just take the circumference of a 31mm circle, which is close to the ID of an nth, divide by 60 (the minute hashes on most nth bezels), divide that by 2, and youll see the max deviation from perfect alignment at 12 is 0.8mm.

If you cannot stand less than one mm difference, typically viewed at a distance equal to the end of your bent arm, at an angle, through a curved crystal, you have issues that cannot be fixed by the internet.

Maybe this pic will be soothing.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Literally, you don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Be fair, Andrew.

Nobody knows what he's talking about.

We can't hold the fact he doesn't know against him.

100% of us don't know.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Be fair, Andrew.
> 
> Nobody knows what he's talking about.
> 
> ...


Hahahahaha

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I've reconsidered my advice to those of you with bezel alignment problems.

I will sell this watch for $10,000. Medical care is expensive, and german doctors aren't cheap.

Check the alignment with the strap!!!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

sobwanhoser said:


> While an enjoyable read, the only thing I can remember about this post was this [email protected]$#! Can't un-do that.....it is really too early in the morning for me to start drinking....:-d


Legendary moment in our company's history - our original sales guy, when we were very much in startup mode and looking for the one, big sale to give us some legitimacy in the marketplace, used the kimono line in the middle of a meeting with the female CEO of the company who could give us that legitimacy.

In the middle of a discussion - he cut off our CEO mid sentence, saying "Whoa. Whoa. Whoa! Before we open our kimonos up any more here girls, we need to get an NDA on the table."

Landed the sale. Somehow.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMFord said:


> Legendary moment in our company's history - our original sales guy, when we were very much in startup mode and looking for the one, big sale to give us some legitimacy in the marketplace, used the kimono line in the middle of a meeting with the female CEO of the company who could give us that legitimacy.
> 
> In the middle of a discussion - he cut off our CEO mid sentence, saying "Whoa. Whoa. Whoa! Before we open our kimonos up any more here girls, we need to get an NDA on the table."
> 
> Landed the sale. Somehow.


Sticking the landing.

That's a good salesman, right there.

I once left a voice mail for a guy I'd called a few dozen times without getting a call back. I said I was worried he might be trapped under a large rock, and if I didn't hear back from him, I might call 911, out of concern for his safety.

He called me back. Told me, "I've never seen any salesperson as doggedly determined to reach me. I don't even know what the hell you're selling, but whatever it is, I'll buy it."

That was fun. More fun than the meeting where I showed up, walked into the conference room, heard the door shut behind me, and proceeded to be threatened, loudly, with much profanity, for the better part of half an hour. One guy told me I didn't know who I was messing with, because he was "from the street."

I was an insurance wholesaler. These were insurance agents, the two owners of a huge firm. They were wearing custom-tailored, monogrammed shirts and neckties. The first few minutes, I kept looking around for the hidden camera. I thought for sure they were all goofing on me.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



City74 said:


> I want one of Docs watches but honestly I really don't like wearing homages. Which watch is the least homagie (homagey) in the forums opinion?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dolphin?

Try that. Then see if you become more open to others.


----------



## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

Maybe my mindset is different, no longer focused on "bang for your buck" but emotional attachment, as I really don't understand the "cost of parts" valuation. 

Is Watch A worth the price being asked? How much do I desire it?

Perhaps I've purchased too many watches because of the deal ($25 SNK809 I'm looking at you) or passing infatuation. I know what works for me and have a better understanding of my tastes and needs. Feeling like I got the deal of the century is no longer in the equation.

I consider my EMG Horizon quite a bargain; a great design & colorway at a quality level that more than meets my needs & eye.

Tangramatic's 39A was worth every penny and is a spectacular art piece that I can wear on my wrist. Also, a bit of a bargain IMO even though I immediately ditched the metal mesh band.

My decision to move forward on an NTH will likely move back my next planned watch purchase as it's 4x the cost. What's got me interested is a very unique design, something fresh and in a well engineered case that people attest to being comfortable on similar sized wrists.

I really like how the red accent lines draw your eye to NTH, also in red. It's almost as good as a wi-fi dog.

The Tikuna is a highly desirable piece to me. My budget and circumstances allow its purchase. Comparing it to other watches, that I'm not interested in, is not particularly instructive or helpful. And honestly, buying anything on specs alone (or heavily weight by) is a foreign way of thinking to me.

/rant


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



City74 said:


> I want one of Docs watches but honestly I really don't like wearing homages. Which watch is the least homagie (homagey) in the forums opinion?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My personal take, the DevilRay is our most unique, un-homagey design, the inspiration we took from Doxa, Certina, Seiko, and some others notwithstanding.

Arguably, someone could also say it's the Azores, or, within the Subs range, I'd say the Tikuna, or Vanguard (the Dolphin borrows some from the vintage Tudor lexicon, and some other places).

I get that some peeps "don't like homages", but that's like me saying I don't like spicy food. I loves me some buffalo wings, and wasabi, and some hot sausage, but I'm not into it if something is just TOO spicy.

Homagery (yeah, I may have just made up a word there, not sure), isn't something that purely is or isn't, it's something with degrees. I can't tell anyone where they should draw their personal "just too spicy for me" line. That's up to them. If someone says "no spice/no homagery at all", I respect it, so long as they're consistent with it, not hypocritical (not looking in anyone's direction here, just sayin').

I'm cool with peeps saying we make homages. Yeah, we do. Some more homagey than others, but all inspiration comes from somewhere, so we make a range of things from "I see what he was doing here, because I'm not blind" to "Oooooohhhhhh....yeah, still don't really see it."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

devilsbite said:


> Maybe my mindset is different, no longer focused on "bang for your buck" but emotional attachment, as I really don't understand the "cost of parts" valuation.
> 
> Is Watch A worth the price being asked? How much do I desire it?
> 
> ...


Yep.

There's no unanimously agreed-upon way to determine pricing, for anything that isn't a fungible commodity product, like electricity. Your computer doesn't know where the electricity comes from, you just want the cheapest electric. NTH Watches aren't commodities, because only NTH makes an NTH.

If, hypothetically, another brand sold the exact same watch - same design, specs, components, dimensions, plus all the intangible stuff, like support, and the brand owner did everything I do, exactly the way I do it - then, yeah, that would increase the commoditization of the product, and someone could legitimately say, "I can get the exact same thing somewhere else - where is it cheaper?"

I charge more than many of my competitors, offering *similar* products, because I can, because the demand is there. I charge less than many other competitors, because I see that those brands have created more demand, enough that they can charge more than I can.

It's supply and demand. The market sorts it out one way or the other.

Nobody ever wins an argument with the market.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

devilsbite said:


> The Tikuna is a highly desirable piece to me. My budget and circumstances allow its purchase. Comparing it to other watches, that I'm not interested in, is not particularly instructive or helpful. And honestly, buying anything on specs alone (or heavily weight by) is a foreign way of thinking to me.
> 
> /rant


Yeah, Tikuna + Tropic strap is feeling "right" to me. Watches are 100% emotion to me and I'm just digging the vibe. And it looks like a lot of people are feeling it too. Probably shouldn't slack on this one...

/advice


----------



## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

Since I'm here...

I know crap all about sub homages, really just don't care for divers in general. Anything that feels "too subby" to me looses interest quickly.

That said, I love the Santa Cruz no date. There's just something about this model that really, really works to my eye. Colors and proportion are so on that I can't explain it.

Was actually tempted by the Magenta Dolphin but WIS gotta be WIS, the circular hour markers scream "subby" to me. 

Just a view from the peanut gallery.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I gotta disconnect for a while, grab a drink and a bite to eat, maybe do a little netflix and chill.

Y'all enjoy your evening/weekend. 

I'm out.

PEACE!


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

docvail said:


> I gotta disconnect for a while, grab a drink and a bite to eat, maybe do a little netflix and chill.
> 
> Y'all enjoy your evening/weekend.
> 
> ...


Enjoy!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> ...
> 
> Maybe this pic will be soothing.
> 
> ...


That_ is_ rather pleasant.

Wait. That date looks like the mask from Scream. Something is afoot here.








(I know what it is. And like it.)


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> I get that some peeps "don't like homages", but that's like me saying I don't like spicy food. I loves me some buffalo wings, and wasabi, and some hot sausage, but I'm not into it if something is just TOO spicy.
> 
> ...


Well said! Excellent spice analogy.

Also reminds me of "I know it when I see it." Maybe the lawyers around here know who should really get credit.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

You had to post rehnquist with his pirates of penzance robe? Ruined it for me. 

Give me some Douglas. Or Marshall (Brown v. But I’m down with Marbury v. too). Even some Learned Hand. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

devilsbite said:


> Since I'm here...
> 
> I know crap all about sub homages, really just don't care for divers in general. Anything that feels "too subby" to me looses interest quickly.
> 
> ...


I like Submariners. I don't mind when watches are reminiscent of them. I do mind when, in my judgement, a watch is purposely trying to be so similar as to get itself confused for an actual Submariner. Or any other watch for that matter.

Mercedes hands on a non-Rolex (I'm pretty sure other historic brands have used them, but facts and logic be damned, this is my thought process) put a watch on impostor alert for me. It is only allowed to be cool if it has some decidedly non-actual-Rolex-model cues. Or MAYBE if the model it looks too much like is so old or rare that real ones almost don't exist.

I also love the Santa Cruz. [which is how you got quoted in this ramble] I think the coloring and texture are just enough to allow full enjoyment with a clean conscience.

As an experiment, I broke my own rules with this SKX031. I didn't put it on a bracelet. And there is a nice, shiny applied SEIKO logo right there at the top. But otherwise, it is pretty darn subby. It supports my hypothesis that I would absolutely rock a Submariner if one were to appear in the watch box.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

hwa said:


> You had to post rehnquist with his pirates of penzance robe? Ruined it for me.
> 
> Give me some Douglas. Or Marshall (Brown v. But I'm down with Marbury v. too). Even some Learned Hand.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Thinking about that Squale, with its enamel bezel, made me think of Chip's upcoming Huldra, all but one version of which also have an enamel bezels...
> 
> View attachment 14322035
> 
> ...


Whoa.... you nearly got me there Doc... Huldra 40mm? Had to go back and check. Whew...42mm! I'm struggling these days with 40's...42-44mm is about my sweet spot, hence why I'm hanging out for your XL releases. Any word on when you'll leak some photos or renderings?

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Toonces said:


> About an hour ago (it took me a while to get caught up on this thread) I responded to a thread on Affordables about being able to read the date on your watch. Your question made me think of that thread.
> 
> 1. Until I really started reading WUS it never even occurred to me to critically examine the "finishing" or other details on my watches.
> 
> ...


Bad finishing is actually fairly easy to spot. I guarantee you my vision is worse than yours, but I don't have any trouble spotting it. It's more to do with learning what to look for. The finishing on the Seiko SKX for example is pretty lousy - bad enough that I had mine bead blasted so I wouldn't have to look at it anymore. The brushing pales in comparison to more expensive Seiko divers, and look at the way it inelegantly bleeds into the polished sides of the case with no real definition whatsoever. That's lousy finishing. The Samurai is similarly quite poor looking when you look at it closely. The Prospex "62MAS" reissues on the other hand (SPB051/53) are quite good - Seiko put some real effort into those cases.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Thinking about that Squale, with its enamel bezel, made me think of Chip's upcoming Huldra, all but one version of which also have an enamel bezels...
> 
> I mean, it's your money, spend it how you want. If you see $1100-$1200 value in the Squale, buy it. Don't let anyone tell you it's overpriced, just because there are micros selling nicer watches, with better specs/components, for less. And I don't just mean the Huldra. Look at the H20 Tiburon, that thing is gorgeous. $700. Apparently Steinhart has a variety of amazing-value watches, or so I've been informed.
> 
> ...


As much as I love my V1 blue Huldra, it is not a perfect watch. The blue version has old radium lume (I think). It's tan, and glows blue. The color I think goes much better with the relatively light blue dial than something crispy white like BGW9 would have, but the lume brightness/longevity is AWFUL. Like, unusable bad. Worse than a Seiko 5. WAY worse than a Seiko 5. Also, the bezel action could stand to be a lot better. It's soft, clicks are very indistinct, and there's a good mm of back play. It doesn't line up at 12 on a click, it's either too early or late. I spin one past the 12 marker, and there's enough back play to then line it up pretty well. I forgive it for all of these faults because it's such a lovable design, and a genuinely good value....provided you don't care that the lume lasts 12 seconds and is invisible even in pitch black.

Also, for whatever it's worth, I bought the Huldra because I can't wear the Squale. One of the best things it has going for it is the "one size fits all" case size.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Yeah, he had those hammers and things, but apparently, Odin was the God of Cool for those Norse peeps...apparently, .......now I can see why - you know that he would have worn this.........









Cheerz,

Alan

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

FAO doc, this thread is interesting: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/type-bezel-do-you-prefer-4991637.html

Shows how and why people choose their bezel material preferences.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Whoa.... you nearly got me there Doc... Huldra 40mm? Had to go back and check. Whew...42mm! I'm struggling these days with 40's...42-44mm is about my sweet spot, hence why I'm hanging out for your XL releases. Any word on when you'll leak some photos or renderings?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Haven't touched it since May or June. I gotta get back on it, but I've been too busy, between traveling, work, and family stuff.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Hmm, Friday got past me, but....


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Wow. Go to work for a few days and get 50 pages behind. Couple of thoughts:

It seems like some folks here don't really "enjoy" this hobby. WAY too tightly wound about stuff. If collecting, buying, owning, or wearing a watch seems to make one angst-ridden, maybe it's time to find another hobby? I wear watches that others wouldn't like, and put straps on some that others might question. But I like them and they make me happy. It's really not worth my time to go and try to talk everyone else into admiring my choices.

This thread isn't really about watches. Honestly. It's a place to learn stuff and read things, and touch base with some fellow hobbyists. One of the moderators here once posted something close to this, in another thread : "Why come here, where everyone else is expressing their appreciation for something, just to criticize their choice?"

It seems to me that much of social media has devolved into a contest of "I'm right, and everyone must agree with me." Life's just not like that. Different career paths, different climates, different foods, different housing choices. No right answers. I travel for a living. In a given month, I'll go to Lagos, Amsterdam, Athens, and Buenos Aires. People in all those places are happy, and live differently. Watches are that way, too. Rolexes don't appeal to me, but they appeal to enough people that there's a waiting list to spend $10,000 USD just to get one. I respect that, and I don't spend any time trying to convince anyone that they're making a poor choice.

In my opinion, if anything about this hobby makes you angry or argumentative, why bother with it at all? I come here to find more choices, not to try and eliminate any.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Whoa.... you nearly got me there Doc... Huldra 40mm? Had to go back and check. Whew...42mm! I'm struggling these days with 40's...42-44mm is about my sweet spot, hence why I'm hanging out for your XL releases. Any word on when you'll leak some photos or renderings?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


My bad. Edited the post. Sorry if I caused cardiac arrest.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> As much as I love my V1 blue Huldra, it is not a perfect watch. The blue version has old radium lume (I think). It's tan, and glows blue. The color I think goes much better with the relatively light blue dial than something crispy white like BGW9 would have, but the lume brightness/longevity is AWFUL. Like, unusable bad. Worse than a Seiko 5. WAY worse than a Seiko 5. Also, the bezel action could stand to be a lot better. It's soft, clicks are very indistinct, and there's a good mm of back play. It doesn't line up at 12 on a click, it's either too early or late. I spin one past the 12 marker, and there's enough back play to then line it up pretty well. I forgive it for all of these faults because it's such a lovable design, and a genuinely good value....provided you don't care that the lume lasts 12 seconds and is invisible even in pitch black.
> 
> Also, for whatever it's worth, I bought the Huldra because I can't wear the Squale. One of the best things it has going for it is the "one size fits all" case size.


You do realize the new Huldra is completely different than the old, yes?

I know Chip. We're good friends. I know which factory is making the new one. It's a different factory than the old one. It's a completely new case design. New bezel design. Different bracelet vendor. Better clasp.

The new one will be amazing. I personally guarantee it.

You're criticizing a completely different watch, because they share a name and some design similarities.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Ticktocker (Oct 27, 2009)

dmjonez said:


> Wow. Go to work for a few days and get 50 pages behind. Couple of thoughts:
> 
> It seems like some folks here don't really "enjoy" this hobby. WAY too tightly wound about stuff. If collecting, buying, owning, or wearing a watch seems to make one angst-ridden, maybe it's time to find another hobby? I wear watches that others wouldn't like, and put straps on some that others might question. But I like them and they make me happy. It's really not worth my time to go and try to talk everyone else into admiring my choices.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. Generally, the happiest people I meet when traveling are not very internet savvy. The problem is that for many people, internet forums, no matter what subject, have been a way to release frustrations about other aspects of their life and to prove just how salty and demanding or incredibly talented or generous and benevolent they can be without actually having to look you in the eye.

It always comes down to dropping your ego. That's when you can start enjoying yourself when talking about quartz vs. auto or ceramic bezel vs. aluminum or homage vs. original.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> FAO doc, this thread is interesting: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/type-bezel-do-you-prefer-4991637.html
> 
> Shows how and why people choose their bezel material preferences.


Thanks, I skimmed a little.

I hesitate to put too much stock into those sorts of discussions. In fact, I try not to spend too much time reading them, because I know my OCD will kick in as soon as I've read enough incorrect assumptions, and I'll be up all night trying to stop people from being wrong on the internet.

My observation is that a lot of folks decide their preferences first, then go looking for support, rather than looking for info first, then deciding their preferences. We tend to invent or overweight "facts" which support our biases, and ignore or discount facts which contradict our biases.

I could make a watch with a ceramic or sapphire bezel, just like I can use Swiss movements if I wanted to. I make my choices knowing I may be going counter to some portion of, possibly the bigger portion of the crowd.

But my choices are based on a recognition and calculation of factors beyond what some portion of the crowd wants. The crowd isn't monolithic in its preferences, so I can choose which portion I want to serve. Giving some other portion of the crowd what they want binds me to the future problems which stem from making that decision.

If I use Swiss movements, I have to consider their added cost, higher defect rate, and short service interval, which will undoubtedly increase the volume of support requests in the future. Likewise, if I make a sapphire or ceramic bezel, I have to consider their cons, as well as the pro of "a lot of people like them."

I'm very happy with the choices we're making.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Ticktocker said:


> ... The problem is that for many people, internet forums, no matter what subject, have been a way to release frustrations ...


This is an interesting take. Of all the Forums i Follow more or less regularly I registered to learn something about a new theme I got interested in or to learn more about a thing I already had a kind of sense for.

This particular thread here is knowledge gold and a must-read for anyone who is interested in microbrand watches and i think beyond. I don't understand much of business-building, but I suspect there's a thing to learn about that in here too.

Hell, i sometimes have to look up new words in the dictionary.

But I get what you are meaning. While thinking about it, I think i have to agree to a certain degree. But on the other hand, people who are in it for the long term and enthusiasts, tend to get emotional. Comes with the territory I guess. So, criticism against other people's choices seems to be part of the discussion culture...

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> This is an interesting take. Of all the Forums i Follow more or less regularly I registered to learn something about a new theme I got interested in or to learn more about a thing I already had a kind of sense for.
> 
> This particular thread here is knowledge gold and a must-read for anyone who is interested in microbrand watches and i think beyond. I don't understand much of business-building, but I suspect there's a thing to learn about that in here too.
> 
> ...


Happens to me all the time. I googled 'vailsauce'. Took me some time, and then I had the 'aah' moment. It ain't all peaches and cream getting old.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> Hmm, Friday got past me, but....












Yup


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

RmacMD said:


> Happens to me all the time. I googled 'vailsauce'. Took me some time, and then I had the 'aah' moment. It ain't all peaches and cream getting old.


That one I deliberately did NOT google, I feared the results.

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Waiting outside the airport for my wife...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> Waiting outside the airport for my wife...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ooooooooh, Barracuda! 
(with apologies to Heart).

Doc Savage


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> Waiting outside the airport for my wife...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that a ToxicNato?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bktaper said:


> Is that a ToxicNato?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mmmmmmmmmyeah, no.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

But we can all agree pineapple on pizza is an abomination right? None of "those" types around here I'm sure. 

And if they are we'll type them into submission.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Bktaper said:


> Is that a ToxicNato?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are those endlinks machined?

:mic drop:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Wearing mesh for the first time today. So far, so good. I don't know why, but it just seems to suit the Nazario.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

mplsabdullah said:


> But we can all agree pineapple on pizza is an abomination right? None of "those" types around here I'm sure.
> 
> And if they are we'll type them into submission.


Pineapple Ham pizza is actually really great, and works well with a wide range of tomato sauces, garlic mayos and ketchups. As long as you keep the (new-york-style) greasy pepperoni slices off of pineapple pizzas, they almost always turn out excellent.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> You do realize the new Huldra is completely different than the old, yes?
> 
> I know Chip. We're good friends. I know which factory is making the new one. It's a different factory than the old one. It's a completely new case design. New bezel design. Different bracelet vendor. Better clasp.
> 
> ...


Yes. I'm curious to see how the new one will turn out in the flesh, because it's hard to get a sense of what it's like based on what's available on Aevig's site. I can only comment on the watch that I've actually been wearing for a couple of years, which is the V1. Despite my issues with it, it's one of only a handful of long term keepers in my collection. It's just a fun watch to wear, and the color is really unique and the closest I could find to the Squale 60ATM in a design that I like and that actually fits on my wrist. I have it on my wrist on a blue Barton Elite strap (which matches beautifully) as I type this. I've also mentioned on several occasions that the original owner of the watch neglected to mention a tiny, barely visible scratch on the crystal when he sold it to me. I contacted Chip about it, and he sent me a new crystal, for free, straight away, even though the watch was long OOP, out of warranty, and I never actually gave Chip a single dime for it in terms of an original sale. That earned an enormous amount of respect from me. I don't always love his designs, but I definitely wouldn't hesitate to buy another Aevig.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The only thing I'm worried about with the gen.2 huldra is the bezel profile - the v1 bezel sloped downwards, the v2 bezel appears to the pretty much flat. Otherwise, really looking forward to the Huldra 2.0...


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

mplsabdullah said:


> But we can all agree pineapple on pizza is an abomination right? None of "those" types around here I'm sure.
> 
> And if they are we'll type them into submission.


If ordered from your average pizza place it won't work, but some more "artisan" joints can do wonders with the stuff


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> The only thing I'm worried about with the gen.2 huldra is the bezel profile - the v1 bezel sloped downwards, the v2 bezel appears to the pretty much flat. Otherwise, really looking forward to the Huldra 2.0...


When I was speaking with Chip for Doc's House Calls, I asked about it, because I remembered you'd mentioned it before, and wanted to know why it was changed.

Don't know if I talked about this before, but when I went to visit my vendors early last year, my OEM showed me some samples of enamel bezels which were being offered by some sub-vendor, and I was pretty blown away.

I've never had a vintage bakelite bezel in hand, so I can't say how much alike they are as far as feel goes, but the enamel bezels were presented as being "like vintage bakelite", and I had to admit, A) they looked amazing, just like vintage bakelite, and B) they felt amazing.

For those who like the looks of those Squale bezels, you'll like the look of the Huldra bezel. They're basically the same material and construction.

They have to be flat, because of how they're made. The underlying bezel assembly includes a steel ring with a hollowed out track, much like it would if there was a solid insert placed within it. But, the enamel is poured into that in liquid form, and allowed to cure.

I don't know if it's possible to make it sloped, unless they have some method by which to "shave" it into a sloped shape, but that would seem to require some added structure above the rim of the steel bezel ring, which could be removed after the enamel cures, so the shaving could be done.

The appearance is somewhat like sapphire bezels, where the lume and markers are under the surface, which is transparent, but it's less shiny than sapphire. It has a warmer look and feel than sapphire.

Also, with a sapphire bezel insert, all the markers and lume have to be applied to the underside, in a single layer. You really can't load up on the lume, because you'd be risking an uneven bottom surface, where air and liquid (like salt water or pool water) could get underneath, and cause delamination (rotting of the underside layer).

With the enamel, since it's a liquid, they can lay in the bottom later of enamel, let it cure, then lay in the lume - lots of it - and dividers (like steel parts), then lay in more enamel. It all cures as a single piece, with the lume and markers inside, protected from any water intrusion, and impervious to delamination.

One concern I had at the time was the softness of the enamel. It can be scratched, which is why I haven't thought too much about using it. But Chip pointed out that like an acrylic crystal, scratches can be polished out. The enamel is about as hard/soft as acrylic.

If the bezel needs to be replaced, you would have to replace the entire bezel assembly, but A) the bezel material won't chip or shatter if dropped, and B) scratches can be polished out, so it should never need to be replaced.

Because the bezel profile would be different, both flat and raised/taller than the original, Chip went to the effort of completely redesigning the Huldra case from scratch, to make it all flow together more. While the overall lines are similar, it's not the same case, at all.


----------



## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

mplsabdullah said:


> But we can all agree pineapple on pizza is an abomination right? None of "those" types around here I'm sure.
> 
> And if they are we'll type them into submission.


I make my own pizza; home made dough, home made sugo, fresh mozzarella, fresh basillio, thin crust, the ONLY way pizza should be. But I do like me a Hawiian pizza now and again. But thick crust, deep dish *pizza*...disgraziato!


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Starting to feel so random when I post a pic of a watch in this tread. But you all go on  i like reading too










Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

mplsabdullah said:


> But we can all agree pineapple on pizza is an abomination right? None of "those" types around here I'm sure.
> 
> And if they are we'll type them into submission.


Really? You just have no idea what your missing out on! Mmmmmm capricciosa with egg and pineapple... the purrrrrfect pizza! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> Starting to feel so random when I post a pic of a watch in this tread. But you all go on  i like reading too
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which model is that? Has a 'vintage Seiko' look to it. First NTH that has really gotten my attention


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Seabee1 said:


> Which model is that? Has a 'vintage Seiko' look to it. First NTH that has really gotten my attention


Devilray


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Seabee1 said:


> Which model is that? Has a 'vintage Seiko' look to it. First NTH that has really gotten my attention





mplsabdullah said:


> Devilray


Mostly sold out.

There may be one white one left in HK, at the WatchDrobe. Other than that, the only ones left available are the DevilFox version at Watch Wonderland in Singapore.

They do come up for sale used, though.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> When I was speaking with Chip for Doc's House Calls, I asked about it, because I remembered you'd mentioned it before, and wanted to know why it was changed.
> 
> Don't know if I talked about this before, but when I went to visit my vendors early last year, my OEM showed me some samples of enamel bezels which were being offered by some sub-vendor, and I was pretty blown away.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that somewhat alleviates the concerns. Definitely looking forward to the Huldra 2.0 now. I missed out (well... daftly decided not to get it) back when gen1 launched, ain't gonna make that mistake again with gen.2.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

General bezel question. I have one 60-click bezel that I can think of. I've never thought it needed smaller steps for my purposes. If it is correct that 120-click bezels are much more common than 60-click, does anyone know why?

I realize more clicks would make insert misalignment less obvious. Was wondering if there is a functional reason - like if real divers try to time things to the half minute. 

Surely its not just a silly thing to brag about in specs. More jewels! More clicks!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Good question. 120 clicks make it easier for some manufacturers to not care about alignment (along the lines of the infamous 0.4% debate) - as you say, with 120 clicks, chances are it's gonna be real dang close. Seiko nowadays seems to wholly rely on that logic alone.

I've had way way more 120 click watches (most all divers) than 60 click watches (Citizen Prime).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> General bezel question. I have one 60-click bezel that I can think of. I've never thought it needed smaller steps for my purposes. If it is correct that 120-click bezels are much more common than 60-click, does anyone know why?
> 
> I realize more clicks would make insert misalignment less obvious. Was wondering if there is a functional reason - like if real divers try to time things to the half minute.
> 
> Surely its not just a silly thing to brag about in specs. More jewels! More clicks!





X2-Elijah said:


> Good question. 120 clicks make it easier for some manufacturers to not care about alignment (along the lines of the infamous 0.4% debate) - as you say, with 120 clicks, chances are it's gonna be real dang close. Seiko nowadays seems to wholly rely on that logic alone.
> 
> I've had way way more 120 click watches (most all divers) than 60 click watches (Citizen Prime).


Just generally, FWIW:

1. 120 clicks is "twice as precise" as 60 clicks, because you can time things down to the half-minute, versus a full minute.

2. More clicks = less misalignment. Max misalignment on 120 clicks is 0.4% (trust me). On a 60-click bezel, it would be 0.8% (ditto).

3. Fewer clicks = generally more positive bezel action, with less slop, though this is also driven by bezel diameter and (I would think) the depth of the tooling underneath. More clicks means more teeth, with more shallow cuts/depths in the bezel assembly, and thus less force required to move the bezel, and more ability for the spring to create slop.

4. Sometimes the bezel diameter and direction (bi-directional vs uni-directional) limits the choices for number of clicks, hence the Phantom's 42mm, 60-click bi-directional bezel vs the Orthos's 42mm, 120-click unidirectional, and the occasional 90-click bezel you may find, as well as any others I'm overlooking.

Some guys prefer the 60-click, for the more positive feel / less slop. Other guys prefer 120 for more precision / less chance of misalignment.


----------



## elementainium8 (Aug 20, 2015)

OK...I *really* hope this doesn't pi** folks off, but here goes:

I love the look of the Nacken Black Modern. But, I don't like the bezel insert--to my eye this is the "unmodern" feel to the piece, as most current usable divers (which this is) will have minute marks through 15. The Nacken Renegade has this modern bezel, but I'm just opposed to the faded dial.

Doc states on the FAQ that we should *not* request custom alterations. So, I've got really only one option---buy two watches (one Modern Black and one Renegade). That said, I'm not planning on keeping both...Here's the question: has anyone swapped bezels on the NTHs before? And, what kind of price hit do you think I'll take on a Renegade with a 5-minute only bezel?

Thanks,
Michael


----------



## elementainium8 (Aug 20, 2015)

Double post....deleted


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Santa Fe in Paris



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

elementainium8 said:


> OK...I *really* hope this doesn't pi** folks off, but here goes:
> 
> I love the look of the Nacken Black Modern. But, I don't like the bezel insert--to my eye this is the "unmodern" feel to the piece, as most current usable divers (which this is) will have minute marks through 15. The Nacken Renegade has this modern bezel, but I'm just opposed to the faded dial.
> 
> ...


I have swapped bezels and worse. @jelliottz has swapped inserts and worse.

Assuming you manage the task without damaging anything, the market will set the price.

Personally, I much prefer the cleaner look of the five-minute bezel.

You need to be aware that there are no spare parts out there. Doc ain't going to bail you out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> and the occasional *90-click bezel* you may find, as well as any others I'm overlooking.
> ...











Maybe Vostok has it right. With zero clicks, any misalignment is purely user error.


----------



## elementainium8 (Aug 20, 2015)

hwa said:


> You need to be aware that there are no spare parts out there. Doc ain't going to bail you out.


As a seiko modder, this is the ONE thing that really scares me. I can stand to buy a new handset, or bezel insert, etc. b/c I messed something up, but the idea of messing up and then being out the full cost of the watch....ouch.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

elementainium8 said:


> As a seiko modder, this is the ONE thing that really scares me. I can stand to buy a new handset, or bezel insert, etc. b/c I messed something up, but the idea of messing up and then being out the full cost of the watch....ouch.


I'd have a professional watch maker do the swap if you want to do it on these. There's no going to Dagaz or Yobokies and just buying another one if you mess up. And depending on how much adhesive was used by the factory, the insert may not want to come out without a fight.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> When I was speaking with Chip for Doc's House Calls, I asked about it, because I remembered you'd mentioned it before, and wanted to know why it was changed.
> 
> Don't know if I talked about this before, but when I went to visit my vendors early last year, my OEM showed me some samples of enamel bezels which were being offered by some sub-vendor, and I was pretty blown away.
> 
> ...


Interesting. In this particular case I'm not entirely sure that I prefer it over the original. Normally I'm really not a fan of aluminum inserts, but the metallic finish that the V1 blue has almost looks like auto paint, it's really cool. I also like the engraved, lumed markers which you don't normally see with painted aluminum. The continuous arc that it forms with the crystal is also a really slick look. I still am definitely looking forward to seeing wrist shots, but for the time being I think I'm leaning V1 > V2.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

elementainium8 said:


> As a seiko modder, this is the ONE thing that really scares me. I can stand to buy a new handset, or bezel insert, etc. b/c I messed something up, but the idea of messing up and then being out the full cost of the watch....ouch.


No risk, no reward!

Still, doubt a watchmaker would agree, for exactly that reason: you won't pay enough to be worth risk of irreversible damage.

You can swap an insert with a particular seiko one, but there will be a bit of space between crystal and ID of insert.

Or you could swap crystal and get a perfect fit, but only if you're willing to glue an acrylic.

Easiest move is swapping dial/movement between cases. That's simple and reversible.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I have a watch with a 90-click bezel. I couldn't quite get the numbers to line up so finally I clicked it through 360 degrees, twice, just to verify that yep it is 90 clicks.

Why in the world one would build a dive watch with 90 clicks is beyond me. Seems crazy, yet I own one. It's all cool, though. I like to live on the edge, like that quote from Dirty Harry:

"I know what you're thinking: have you been underwater 25 minutes, or 26? Do you feel lucky, punk? Well? Do you?"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

elementainium8 said:


> As a seiko modder, this is the ONE thing that really scares me. I can stand to buy a new handset, or bezel insert, etc. b/c I messed something up, but the idea of messing up and then being out the full cost of the watch....ouch.


Don't swap the bezels. Swap the cases.

Trust me. It's easier. You could damage the case trying to get the bezel off.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Seiko bezel is still the best! I checked out the turtle gilt over the weekend... and the bezel doesn't align!


----------



## KiwiWomble (Sep 13, 2012)

....anyone else feel like they only know about half of whats been talked about because they cant make it though Doc's WOT's?...the bits a read i agree with generally


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

KiwiWomble said:


> ....anyone else feel like they only know about half of whats been talked about because they cant make it though Doc's WOT's?...the bits a read i agree with generally


I sometimes only glance at them. But the same is true about posts from anyone in the thread.

But if I'm interested in what's currently being discussed, I find Doc's walls to be unparalleled in terms of insightfulness snd authoritativeness.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

#bluewatchmonday. dial becomes black during overcast.


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> I buy my keyboards in bulk.
> 
> snip
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reply Chris. I appreciate the time taken to explain the processes you have been thru. I gives some very interesting insights.

I won't continue beating on the horse, as you've helped bury it deeply now (not the best analogy, but my inner voice is going to accept it) but I have a feeling that number 6 on the list, is going to be a life long partner for anyone brave enough to make a product, of any kind, on any market...

Let alone someone who's easily contacted on a public forum, and to that regards - you sir, are a brave man.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Meanwhile, down at the metallurgy laboratory, Odin time-checks the start of a 24 hour corrosion test on super-duplex stainless steel samples.......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Cool! What happens if you do that test on the Odin?


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Cool! What happens if you do that test on the Odin?


Do it, do it, do it, do it.......


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Cool! What happens if you do that test on the Odin?


Odin wouldn't like it, even a day long exposure to the atmosphere in that particular lab room would give Odin a particularly sickly patina.......

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Ragl said:


> Odin wouldn't like it, even a day long exposure to the atmosphere in that particular lab room would give Odin a particularly sickly patina.......
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wassup!

The next release will go on sale this coming Friday. Hopefully you all saw the email blast that went out today. Official start date announcement will be made tomorrow, but, trust me, it's Friday.

Get on the retailers' wait lists, people. We won't have ANY of the Barracuda Vintage Black available from the NTH website, and only a few pieces each of the other models coming in.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ME: We sell out of everything eventually. Get what you want before that happens. Don't be the guy who emails me the day/week after we sell out of something, asking if we have more, or when we'll make more.

GUYS WHO GET OUR EMAIL BLASTS: "Are you ever going to make more of ________?"

It literally (not figuratively) happens, like, every time.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Truly unparalleled customer service.

(hint: look at the order number)


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> ME: We sell out of everything eventually. Get what you want before that happens. Don't be the guy who emails me the day/week after we sell out of something, asking if we have more, or when we'll make more.
> 
> GUYS WHO GET OUR EMAIL BLASTS: "Are you every going to make more of ________?"
> 
> It literally (not figuratively) happens, like, every time.


Any word on the WG Nazarrio Ghost? I think john was away til today right?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Truly unparalleled customer service.
> 
> (hint: look at the order number)
> 
> View attachment 14330485


That makes me feel much better about my nominal "frenemy" status.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Truly unparalleled customer service.
> 
> (hint: look at the order number)
> 
> View attachment 14330485


1. You earned every letter of that order number.

2. I don't need a "2".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Any word on the WG Nazarrio Ghost? I think john was away til today right?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


They'll ship next week.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> That makes me feel much better about my nominal "frenemy" status.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


nom·i·nal
/ˈnämən(ə)l/

adjective
1. (of a role or status) existing *in name only*...

Bruh, ain't nothing "nominal" about that status.


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

Is it weird that I feel even better about this watch knowing that Chris is ornery and messes with people? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ewhulbert said:


> Is it weird that I feel even better about this watch knowing that Chris is ornery and messes with people?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A little weird, yes.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

ewhulbert said:


> Is it weird that I feel even better about this watch knowing that Chris is ornery and messes with people?


I'd say it's worth twenty-five bucks. ;-)


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> nom·i·nal
> /ˈnämən(ə)l/
> 
> adjective
> ...


Enjoy DC alone.

Hey, everybody, doc sells mod parts, but only if you ask by email. If you don't hear back within one hour, call him.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Truly unparalleled customer service.
> 
> (hint: look at the order number)
> 
> View attachment 14330485


FTFY...

Janis Trading Company
1715 Oak St Suite 1
Lakewood, WY 82001


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Enjoy DC alone.
> 
> Hey, everybody, doc sells mod parts, but only if you ask by email. If you don't hear back within one hour, call him.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't be like that.

We can keep it nominal.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Don't be like that.
> 
> We can keep it nominal.


Okay, "pal."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Good call on putting the time-line of the releases in your newsletter, doc!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Okay, "pal."
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

You see what you get when you mess with the Orphans?!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> You see what you get when you mess with the Orphans?!


I'll be okay.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Chevron!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hopefully this is kosher to post here. Apologies to the mod team if not.

As many of you know, I'm involved in something called Microbrand University, wherein we give startup brand owners a two day crash course in launching and running a watch microbrand.

Our inaugural workshop had five guys in it. While our hope is that all five will launch sooner than later, and be successful, they're all on their own timelines.

Two guys are both in what I think are the late stages of pre-launch, approaching a pre-order or crowd finding start. As such, I want to ask everyone here to just check them out, since they're both putting some content out into the world, laying the groundwork for their brand identity.

I'm not asking anyone to buy anything. There's nothing for sale. Follow them on FB and IG if you want, and subscribe to their newsletters if you like.

What I am asking is to consider the messaging they're doing. If you like what you see, let them know. If you want to know more, let them know.

Both Zack from Ardor & Forge and Mark from Winfield are good guys. Neither is a clone of me, not even remotely. They're very different from me, and each other, but both have put in a lot of work just to get this far, and they still have lots of work to do. Your feedback could make a difference.

http://www.ardorandforge.com/

https://instagram.com/ardorandforge?igshid=p6ypku4gkc2z

https://winfieldwatch.com/

https://instagram.com/winfieldwatchco?igshid=qv2gu59vgpxb

I'll come back and post links to their FB pages later, when I'm not on mobile.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Scorpene, um, Tuesday


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Hopefully this is kosher to post here. Apologies to the mod team if not.
> 
> As many of you know, I'm involved in something called Microbrand University, wherein we give startup brand owners a two day crash course in launching and running a watch microbrand.
> 
> ...


Im digging on that Winfield Mission Timer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Im digging on that Winfield Mission Timer.


Me too. Sort of a quartz, grab-n-go Damasko vibe to it, right?


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> Me too. Sort of a quartz, grab-n-go Damasko vibe to it, right?


It also has a mild Marathon vibe to it, and I like it... just wish it was a little smaller. I need someone to make a 38mm case, 46mm L2L something along these lines.

But I'll watch it...


----------



## ArdorandForge (Feb 20, 2017)

docvail said:


> Hopefully this is kosher to post here. Apologies to the mod team if not.
> 
> As many of you know, I'm involved in something called Microbrand University, wherein we give startup brand owners a two day crash course in launching and running a watch microbrand.
> 
> ...


I appreciate you putting this out there, Chris.

I got great feedback (by great, I don't mean positive) from lots of people here when I first started drawing up ideas back in 2017. I actually completely overhauled the entire brand, and the watch after sorting all of that out. So, I know as much as anyone that every bit of feedback helps, and is (most of the time) appreciated.

Thanks guys!
Zack


----------



## ArdorandForge (Feb 20, 2017)

docvail said:


> Hopefully this is kosher to post here. Apologies to the mod team if not.
> 
> As many of you know, I'm involved in something called Microbrand University, wherein we give startup brand owners a two day crash course in launching and running a watch microbrand.
> 
> ...


I appreciate you putting this out there, Chris.

I got great feedback (by great, I don't mean positive) from lots of people here when I first started drawing up ideas back in 2017. I actually completely overhauled the entire brand, and the watch after sorting all of that out. So, I know as much as anyone that every bit of feedback helps, and is (most of the time) appreciated.

Thanks guys!
Zack


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Very cool, Zack. Lots of personality flowing through with the Rothrock. Dig that bezel!


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> You see what you get when you mess with the Orphans?!


Well played. . .









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

docvail said:


> Hopefully this is kosher to post here. Apologies to the mod team if not.
> 
> As many of you know, I'm involved in something called Microbrand University, wherein we give startup brand owners a two day crash course in launching and running a watch microbrand.
> 
> ...


This is JUST my personal opinion, based on knowing nothing about either watch until 5 minutes ago. Phone browsing, so I'm looking at mobile format. Web pages only, didn't look at IG.

A&F: too much text, not enough watch, too much emphasis on "heritage" in the text, make it shorter and almost exclusively about your personal rapport with the park and it will scan better - the history is interesting but probably deserves its own tab. I think a photo of the park would help rationalise things as well. Watch photos need to be reviewed because as is they make the hands look under emphasised vs the dial, and the crop on the front page is unbalanced.

Winfield: Presents as an empty page until you scroll down. At least one photo of watch required before text. Specs first is the right way to do it. Bio needs to be cut down, it's reiterating the same point several times. Definitely on the right track though. Presentation of watch itself is first class, great angles, mix of perspectives, looks like a really balanced package and the strap is cool.

watch addict in recovery


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Hopefully this is kosher to post here. Apologies to the mod team if not.
> 
> As many of you know, I'm involved in something called Microbrand University, wherein we give startup brand owners a two day crash course in launching and running a watch microbrand.
> 
> ...


Interesting, the A&F design is kinda cool. I just can't gel with the crown and guards at 4, though. I had the same problem with the Decodiver which is why I ultimately sold that watch. 4 o'clock crowns work when they are cleanly integrated ala SKX, or recessed ala Squale. When they stick out with big crown guards though, they make the watch look like it has a giant chin wart.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Good luck to those two brands. 
I could probably find a lot of good and/or bad things to say depending on the mood, but let's see how things go and if they are able to carve a presence or reputation for themselves within this area.

One thing is clear, either they have to start planning an angle of approach for WUS, or an approach for youtube video bloggers, to get their brands and products known. But that's gonna happen once they have their prototypes in hand. Right now it's way too early to tell how things are gonna go.

It's odd that doc kinda threw them out on the bus lane tho - far as I can tell, neither brand has a prototype ready yet, meaning there's almost nothing to show at this stage. Is it wise to reveal themselves at this point, when the design is already locked in, but hasn't been realized yet?


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

illumidata said:


> This is JUST my personal opinion


Who's would it else be?


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

RPDK said:


> Who's would it else be?


If you spend much time here you learn to over qualify these things.

watch addict in recovery


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Just spent a few mins on the website. 
Not looking at the watch now, just the website.
Same as illumidata, too much text on the website - seems like they are develop by the same person. Lose the shadow on the text it looks like the fonts are smudge.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Yesterday's picture but still on the wrist.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> Yesterday's picture but still on the wrist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Knickers?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ArdorandForge (Feb 20, 2017)

Twehttam said:


> Very cool, Zack. Lots of personality flowing through with the Rothrock. Dig that bezel!


Thanks! Not sure which photo you ended up seeing, but the bezel on the previous prototype looked a little weak. The new prototype will get a slightly beefier version (one of the most recent posts on Instagram). Either way, thank you for the compliment and for checking it out!


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Me too. Sort of a quartz, grab-n-go Damasko vibe to it, right?


I was thinking it has a vintage Ollech & Wajs Caribbean vibe going on with the arabic numbers. Which is also my only critique, the package as a whole made me look twice as i said where have i seen this before. But the quartz as a grab and go is very interesting.


----------



## ArdorandForge (Feb 20, 2017)

illumidata said:


> This is JUST my personal opinion, based on knowing nothing about either watch until 5 minutes ago. Phone browsing, so I'm looking at mobile format. Web pages only, didn't look at IG.
> 
> A&F: too much text, not enough watch, too much emphasis on "heritage" in the text, make it shorter and almost exclusively about your personal rapport with the park and it will scan better - the history is interesting but probably deserves its own tab. I think a photo of the park would help rationalise things as well. Watch photos need to be reviewed because as is they make the hands look under emphasised vs the dial, and the crop on the front page is unbalanced.
> 
> ...


Thanks for checking it out, and for sharing your opinion. I stumbled through getting that website published by myself after watching a few tutorials on Wordpress...I'm NOT a web designer. The cropped images are terrible, and there was a lot to be desired as far as text/photo balance and overall layout. It worked to start gathering email addresses for anyone who was interested in the progress, but I'm actually working with a professional to get the site updated before things really launch. Still waiting on a finished version of the prototype as well...


----------



## ArdorandForge (Feb 20, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Good luck to those two brands.
> I could probably find a lot of good and/or bad things to say depending on the mood, but let's see how things go and if they are able to carve a presence or reputation for themselves within this area.
> 
> One thing is clear, either they have to start planning an angle of approach for WUS, or an approach for youtube video bloggers, to get their brands and products known. But that's gonna happen once they have their prototypes in hand. Right now it's way too early to tell how things are gonna go.
> ...


Thanks for the comment! I threw my story out there as early on as I could. I actually started talking to guys and gathering feedback here on WUS over 2 years ago. Those conversations lead to an enormous pivot in my plans. In my experience, there may be a few people who write me off because I don't have everything figured out during that "first impression," but it seems more often than not, most have appreciated seeing my thought process and the growth I've made from being willing to listen to feedback and criticism. I've got a lot of feedback on just about every aspect of building the brand, and although the design is mostly locked in now, I'm still in the prototyping stage, so if something drastic would be brought to my attention, there's still an opportunity to make revisions. Also, I'm working on overhauling the website with a professional (the current version is just something I threw together after watching a few Wordpress tutorials) so any feedback on that, like illumidata gave above, is definitely helpful.

Bottom line for me is, I don't think it's ever too early to reveal yourself, unless maybe you are working on some kind of scientific invention that someone might steal and get to market quicker or something like that...but in this instance, I think the earlier you put yourself out there, the better. If you keep everything behind the curtain until you're ready to launch, only to find out no one likes anything about what you created...you'll probably be out of business before ever even having a chance.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Folks in Australia, New Zealand, or other places in that part of the world - new NTH retailer, Five:45 is coming on board, and should be ready to go this Friday when sales of the next release start.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Folks in Australia, New Zealand, or other places in that part of the world - new NTH retailer, Five:45 is coming on board, and should be ready to go this Friday when sales of the next release start.


it seems that direct sales have been gaining in popularity, what aspect of using retailers made you go this route? Seems you are bucking the trend here.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

NTH Stacko


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> it seems that direct sales have been gaining in popularity, what aspect of using retailers made you go this route? Seems you are bucking the trend here.


World domination requires a worldwide footprint.

Direct sales have grown for many brands because they burned their retailers with how badly they've run their businesses. My retailers love how I run my business, so we're growing our retail distribution.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Omegafanboy said:


> Yesterday's picture but still on the wrist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hate guys without bellies. If I take a pic like that, you see my belly, not my feet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> I hate guys without bellies. If I take a pic like that, you see my belly, not my feet.


You got that furniture syndrome, where your chest done fell into your drawers.

Closely related to Dunlap Disease, where ya belly done lapped ya belt.

Not to be confused with a Dicky-do problem, where ya belly stick out farther than ya...well, you know.

Fat jokes. I've heard them all.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

To help explain why Zack and Mark are out in the world with their brands, even without having a product ready to sell, and why I'm bringing some attention to them...

The typical microbrand launch cycle looks like this: come up with an idea for a product/design, come up with a brand, find a vendor to make your product, figure out how to sell it. That's the process that I and pretty much every other microbrand owner went through/goes through, but that process sucks. 

What if you get to the end - the figure out how to sell it phase - and then you find out your product/design stinks, your branding stinks, or your vendor stinks? The better way to do it is to look at every facet of your launch before you launch, to be thinking about and planning your product, your branding, your promotion, your pricing, your vendor, etc, all from the very beginning.

Mark and Zack were both in similar yet slightly different parts of that process when they came to our MBU workshop. Both figured out they needed to backtrack a little before they launched. Because Zack was a little farther down the road, he had to backup more.

Zack had a vendor picked out, prototypes made, and a lot of his branding established, to include his website/blog, where he'd been documenting a lot of the process to that point, and his Instagram profile. But, in the process of having prototypes made, he realized his vendor wasn't a good fit for him and his business, and the prototypes weren't what he hoped they'd be.

Because I've gone through a few rounds of vendor selection, and because another of our coaches has a deep background in process engineering and manufacturing, most of the advice we gave to Zack in the workshop and since was focused on the challenge he was currently facing - finding a new vendor, and having new prototypes made.

But, in the meantime, we all agreed that his product design and branding were solid. Rather than go back or pause, we wanted to see him continue to lay the groundwork for a successful launch by continuing to build out his brand "story", with his website, blog, and posts to social media. I think we gave him some help in that area, but he was off to a good start already, and his focus was necessarily on the more practical concern of getting his product made to his standards.

Zack plans to exhibit at the District Time event in mid-October, so hopefully he'll have new prototypes to show by then.

Mark also had a vendor picked out, a brand identity in early formation, and was in the early stages of product design, but not yet ready to prototype. While he's happy with his vendor, our coaching team saw that his product concept and branding could be improved, so he went back to the drawing board on both, and made a number of improvements.

Mark is planning to exhibit at the next Worn & Wound Wind-Up, which I think is in November. *EDIT - I think he's in full production now*, with a target delivery date no later than November, so his launch plan is coming together nicely.

One of the things we see over and over again is brand/product launches which fail because brand owners like to spend all their time geeking out over the product design, but promoting their product and brand are well outside their comfort zone, so they tend to avoid it, at the cost of a successful launch. Rather than do good promotion, many brand owners tend to rely on dramatic under-pricing of the product, which puts the viability of their business in serious jeopardy.

There has to be some pre-launch promotion of both the brand and the product. How much and for how long depends on how well it's done, the pricing strategy, the launch vehicle, the strength of the brand and product design, and the brand owner's budget for time and money.

So, Mark's product design is pretty much set, perhaps save for some variations he may decide to add. As an example, I'm aware that people may like a no-date option, so he may figure out how to add one, or he may not. Now, he's got to do the necessary promotion leading up to his November launch window.

I think Zack's product design is also pretty much set, but because he was in the process of finding a new vendor, that opened up the opportunity to tweak the design a bit, if he thought it needed it. I'm not sure if the final version will be much if any different than the v.1 prototypes. I haven't had a direct convo with Zack in at least a month, but I trust his judgment to know if he's on track, and he knows our coaching team is here for him if he needs to use us as a sounding board. Like Mark, he's got to continue doing the promotion necessary to ensure his soon-to-happen launch is a success.

Everyone wants to critique design, and I'm not telling anyone not to, but where I think Mark and Zack could most benefit from the wisdom of the crowd is with the advice you all have been giving them, about how their businesses and brands are being presented to the world, via their websites and social media. From your chair, is what they're doing working for you, or no, and if no, why no?


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

That windfield doesn't look bad at all! Personally, after getting all the swiss marketing BS out of my system again, I'm finding myself actually appreciating quartz more again. *The world could use some more quartz watches that are otherwise up to WIS standard.*
They're accurate, relatively light, can be very thin, and more affordable than mechanical watches. What's not to like.

If that windfield manages to stay within 10mm thickness, that would be awesome. And maybe add some bezel options. I applaud not blatantly repeating the count up dive style bezel, but it would probably sell better (am guessing). So maybe add a 12h and a dive style optiom to the count down bezel design.
I remember Doug from MWW trying something different with the "ascent" bezel on his Beluga. He quickly came back from that adding a normal bezel option, after a storm of requests. Though admittedly, that ascent bezel was a bit more oddball than a simple count down bezel, which is still very functional.
For the right price and with 12h bezel (niche I know) I might be in for it!

Edit: high lighted one line, that I think windfield could capitalize on more. I truly believe that there is room for micro brands in the quartz market. Search the dive watch forum for quartz recommendations. Its scurfa scurfa scurfa, and then aquaracer and hydro conquest. Surely there is room for more micro brands in the quartz niche that scurfa carved out for them selves.
(Maybe a move to consider for NTH as well? A quartz sub at $400? Don't know if the numbers would work out like that obviously though...)


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

liquidtension said:


> NTH Stacko


Nice! The case on the NTH subs is really phenomenal. I never really thought that the attention to detail to make the case this thin with the slightly down ending to the lugs mattered so much, but it wears really well. Combined with the excellent bracelet makes it a watch I'll love for a long time.

Speaking of which, I am wearing now and it is #alwayscompliant. BSH Carolina #3 is out in Tropical Depression #3.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Some thoughts, then:

- as mentioned, the websites (both) could use a professional touch before going all-out with blogs/youtube. Right now its a bit too text-heavy and light on images.
- ardor's webpage loads well, but doesn't have https. That's gonna be a problem when selling.
- winfields webpage has https, but it also has like 8 different servers of javascript. Allowing javascripts from "winfieldwatch" and "shopify" results in an almost blank page that must be pulled down like 2 screens before any content is visible. I don't really want to allow/unblock the other 5 domains of scripts because I've no idea which one of them is or isn't infected with malware, and I sure don't wanna bother risking it. The websites should at least have the basic look/functionality with minimal external script dependencies...

the watches...

- rothrock, not bad. Idk if there will be much demand for the rose gold pvd model. Orange lume on hands might be a problem with regards to glow. If the white lume is a good one (e.g. the new superluminova x-something formulations), mention it in the details. The product page could make a bigger note of Matt's leatherwork contributions. I feel like I'm missing a hook, in some sense. It's not entirely presented as a retro military field watch, nor is it a fashionista piece despite the gold+wood thing. Is it for camping lumberjacks? Maybe, why not... if so, trendy EDC or lifestyle communities might be more into this. For WUS, what's gonna make this stand above a hamilton khaki, or that newly discussed Vaer or Serica(sp?) field watches? I ain't entirely getting it, so you might need to tell it explicitly.

Also, feel free to ignore and laugh, but I'd make the bezel on this watch brushed uncoated steel, to allow those facets to play with light more. The black DLC I fear is gonna mostly hide that detail in all photos and most angles.

- Winfield Timer, good idea to go for a somewhat higher-end quartz watch. And it's a nice looking piece. Please make sure that the case is of good standard. The thing that bugged me to no end with my Aevig Corvid mk1 was that the case was a bit... rough, basic. One thing that springs to mind is that the timer sure looks a lot like a certain Sinn. The seconds hand is red, the strap accent is red... no red on the dial anywhere? As for that date.. Is that the best place for a date window? Is it good to leave the window unframed (by print or by bevel)? As a whole, this reminds me of Gavox in terms of messaging and product, so it might be interesting to check what gavox is doing wrong, and avoid making the same mistakes.

One note to both brands, right now the "hot" thing is box- and box-domed- sapphire crystals, not flat crystals. Just saying.

The biggest issue will be to make these stand out from the pile of other fresh microbrands. IF the WUS audience is the right target market.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Next episode of Doc's House Calls is up.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

ewhulbert said:


> Nice! The case on the NTH subs is really phenomenal. I never really thought that the attention to detail to make the case this thin with the slightly down ending to the lugs mattered so much, but it wears really well. Combined with the excellent bracelet makes it a watch I'll love for a long time.
> 
> Speaking of which, I am wearing now and it is #alwayscompliant. BSH Carolina #3 is out in Tropical Depression #3.
> 
> View attachment 14334665


#alwayscompliant










#10


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

MikeCfromLI said:


> #alwayscompliant
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bro, compliance over here is measured in snark and WOTs. Don't confuse us!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> That windfield doesn't look bad at all! Personally, after getting all the swiss marketing BS out of my system again, I'm finding myself actually appreciating quartz more again. *The world could use some more quartz watches that are otherwise up to WIS standard.*
> They're accurate, relatively light, can be very thin, and more affordable than mechanical watches. What's not to like.
> 
> Edit: high lighted one line, that I think windfield could capitalize on more. I truly believe that there is room for micro brands in the quartz market. Search the dive watch forum for quartz recommendations. Its scurfa scurfa scurfa, and then aquaracer and hydro conquest. Surely there is room for more micro brands in the quartz niche that scurfa carved out for them selves.
> (Maybe a move to consider for NTH as well? A quartz sub at $400? Don't know if the numbers would work out like that obviously though...)


FWIW, whenever I see a watch is quartz, I immediately lose all interest in it. I think there is a reason why there are so few nicer quartz divers, why Oris doesn't make a single quartz watch, etc. When an SKX is $200, I can't make the business case for a quartz diver over like $150, and if your retail price is that low, you don't have the money to do nice/complex case finishing, high quality applied/lumed markers, nice looking hands, etc.

They don't appeal to me personally, but I understand why people like mecaquartz chronos. You get an accurate, functional chronograph that doesn't need to have the massively thick cases that Valjoux 7750 chronos require, and you're not paying for an ETA 2894-2. Both of those movements also require $300+ services after not that much time. When an NH35 is $40 though, and can go 10, 15, 20 years without being touched, exactly how much money are you really saving when you have to swap out batteries every few years?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Hopefully this is kosher to post here. Apologies to the mod team if not.
> 
> As many of you know, I'm involved in something called Microbrand University, wherein we give startup brand owners a two day crash course in launching and running a watch microbrand.
> 
> ...


I forgot to post those FB page links.

https://www.facebook.com/ardorandforge/

https://www.facebook.com/winfieldwatchco/


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> It also has a mild Marathon vibe to it, and I like it... just wish it was a little smaller. I need someone to make a 38mm case, 46mm L2L something along these lines.
> 
> But I'll watch it...


You need to track down an early gen Maratac Mid-Pilot.

That was $200 and 39mm of badassery.

And a good argument for entry-level, workhorse movements.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Today, as everyday, Le Magnifique broke through the D in approval of my watch choice.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Good luck to those two brands.
> I could probably find a lot of good and/or bad things to say depending on the mood, but let's see how things go and if they are able to carve a presence or reputation for themselves within this area.
> 
> One thing is clear, either they have to start planning an angle of approach for WUS, or an approach for youtube video bloggers, to get their brands and products known. But that's gonna happen once they have their prototypes in hand. Right now it's way too early to tell how things are gonna go.
> ...


Re - the angle of approach...

It's something we discuss a good bit in the workshop.

If it wasn't already obvious, I'm a bigger believer in speaking/engaging directly with customers online than I am in paid advertising or relying on reviewers (not that I'm not happy to work with some).

My main beef with paid advertising is that I don't think the ROI is there for what we sell, and I suspect the ROI will only get worse over time. My beef with relying on reviewers is that you're putting the success of your business into someone else's hands, and relying on their good graces to carry your message to the masses.

What I've come to realize is that no matter what you do to grow brand awareness and market your business, your business becomes addicted to that. It's sort of, "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." If you build your business of paid ads, you can never stop buying paid ads. If the reviewers are your patrons, you're subservient to them.

And, obviously, if you spend 2-3 hours a day on social media, you can't just say, "Eff this, I'm out."

My old digital ad agency told me another of their clients, a designer sunglasses company, was killing it online, by doing "a little bit of everything." I think that sort of approach has value, as far as it goes, but in pre-launch and for the first few years, you have to know where you're getting the most traction.

I was fortunate that I didn't have a day-job when I started my business (look at me, so lucky my old company $hlt-canned me!), so I had scads of time to hang around the forum building an online reputation. Most guys just can't create the sheer volume of noise I was able to in the ~6 months leading up to my eventual launch. Brand owners in startup have to lay the groundwork over a longer period of time, maybe, or by executing better with the work they put in.

So, Zack started blogging about his trials and tribulations getting his brand launched, which I think is both a good way to demonstrate what he's all about (hint: he's super hands-on when it comes to the product), and is probably a bit cathartic for him. I think it makes him relatable, for people who read about his progress and empathize with the frustrations he's felt during his quest. He's outdoorsy, and that carries over into the imagery he's using to infuse the brand with that rugged feel.

Whereas Zack is very practical, Mark is more analytical, which makes sense, if you know he served as a Naval Intelligence officer (just like James Bond creator Ian Fleming).

Once we understood his interest in military history, we (marketing guy Josh and I) easily understood his focus on military watches. But we could see that the brand and product he had envisioned needed to have some story behind it, to tie things together. If he's Ian Fleming at heart, he needed to conjure up his James Bond. That's not easy for very many people to do. We're not all born story-tellers.

Like I said, they were both in similar places when they came to our workshop, and they're in similar places now, or perhaps two sides of the same coin. Zack's got a lot of story built out, but is waiting on a product he can show. Mark's got his product, but needs to continue developing his story.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I was thinking it has a vintage Ollech & Wajs Caribbean vibe going on with the arabic numbers. Which is also my only critique, the package as a whole made me look twice as i said where have i seen this before. But the quartz as a grab and go is very interesting.


I think you're the target customer.

I'm not a quartz fan, personally. I didn't get what he was doing when he told me about it, but, after discussing it some, I got it.

It's not a watch for most WIS, who are often movement snobs, and prefer mechanicals. It's a tacticool watch. Functional, legit specs, 10 year battery, built like a tank (I know who's making it - trust me, it'll be solid).

It doesn't get any more grab-n-go than that. If you want a "functionally-correct" military-tool watch that'll be worry-free for 10 years, and you don't want the usual Luminox or whatever, Mark's got you.

If he makes an automatic version, I might have to get one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> That windfield doesn't look bad at all! Personally, after getting all the swiss marketing BS out of my system again, I'm finding myself actually appreciating quartz more again. *The world could use some more quartz watches that are otherwise up to WIS standard.*
> They're accurate, relatively light, can be very thin, and more affordable than mechanical watches. What's not to like.
> 
> If that windfield manages to stay within 10mm thickness, that would be awesome. And maybe add some bezel options. I applaud not blatantly repeating the count up dive style bezel, but it would probably sell better (am guessing). So maybe add a 12h and a dive style optiom to the count down bezel design.
> ...


So...talking to Mark about his product, how he sees it, how I saw it, how I thought the market would see it...

It's got dive-watch specs, so you could argue it's a diver. I looked at it as a diver. In Mark's view, it's a field/tactical watch, just one that happens to be over-built with dive-watch specs.

That said, I have no doubt it will appeal to people who see it as a diver, whether that's how Mark sees it or not. An extra 100m of WR can't hurt, amirite? It's a field watch, or dive-watch, depending on what you want it to be, maybe.

My (perhaps stubborn) thinking has always been that I didn't want to make a quartz watch because I perceived that the market for microbrands largely puts an arbitrary price limit on various microbrand watches based on specs/components, and I didn't want to be in the price range where I thought I'd need to be to sell a quartz watch (which I figured was under $400).

Yes, I know big-name brands sell more expensive quartz watches, but there aren't as many higher-priced (over $400) quartz watches from micros. I started off thinking he was over-pricing it, but after talking with him about it, and going over his plan, and understanding the value of what he was offering, I was convinced he was under-pricing it.

I still don't have much interest in making a quartz watch under the NTH brand, but to Mark's credit, he changed my thinking about it, for his business. He totally turned me around.

I think the target customer for Winfield is more of that tacticool crowd, the guys who pay $700 for a quartz Marathon TSAR. It's not necessarily the same guys who are looking at NTH. I told Mark - I know how to reach the target customer for NTH. I don't know how to reach the guys who pay $700 for a TSAR. But I think those guys like to see the brand owner has the bona fides to produce a high-spec, not cheap, military watch, which Mark has.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I think the target customer for Winfield is more of that tacticool crowd, the guys who pay $700 for a quartz Marathon TSAR. It's not necessarily the same guys who are looking at NTH. I told Mark - I know how to reach the target customer for NTH. I don't know how to reach the guys who pay $700 for a TSAR. But I think those guys like to see the brand owner has the bona fides to produce a high-spec, not cheap, military watch, which Mark has.


As a NTH and TSAR owner, I love this idea, love overbuilt quartz, and I'll be following. It's a little large for me, so I'm probably not a buyer, but I'm a fan and I hope Mark does well. Great advice from everyone.

As for an overbuilt quartz diver, everyone sub-$500 is going to get comped to Scurfa. It's a good idea to go field/tactical - something a little different - with some dive specs.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Doc, a while back, you said you’d stick to divers and leave other genres to some brands you knew were doing good work in those areas. Are these them?

Speaking of other brands, did you ever say which one is also using the name Vanguard? I searched a couple times without figuring it out. 

Thanks.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Some thoughts, then:
> 
> - as mentioned, the websites (both) could use a professional touch before going all-out with blogs/youtube. Right now its a bit too text-heavy and light on images.
> - ardor's webpage loads well, but doesn't have https. That's gonna be a problem when selling.
> ...


Uhm...yes, it is for camping lumberjacks.

Seriously now, I don't know if this is a thing in other countries, but there's a large group of men in the US market who seem to be going through a major rediscovery of our pioneer roots. We're all trying to look Amish lately. Have you seen Rusty? He looks like he spent the day churning butter.

We all see how huge the market for EDC stuff is on IG, and how "lumberjack chic" seems to be the mode with "curated products" sites like Huckberry. Every product photographer seems to be running around the woods like gorillas in the mist. Guys on IG are making fortunes out of bottle openers and folding knives.

I'm connected to Chris Wiegand of Lum-Tec and Steve Laughlin of Raven on Facebook, so I see the pics they post. Chris is always doing something that takes place in a lot of mud, and Steve appears to be running his business from a caravan down by the river.

I don't get it. I spent enough time in the woods when I was in the Army. Too many bugs. I like air conditioning and cable TV. If I find myself in dire need of a knife, I'll know I've somehow made a large number of bad decisions in an alarmingly and uncharacteristically consistent sequence.

But a lot of guys are into it, and there are multiple industries filled with companies catering to guys who like to do things with their hands, in buildings made of wood, in places where you can catch your dinner. Zack is one of those guys, so naturally, Ardor & Forge is one of those brands.

If it were me doing it, I think it would be laughably inept in its execution. I'm just not that guy. But that's who Zack is, he's comfortable in his own skin, and we all agreed he should just talk that talk so long as he was going to walk that walk. In his case, it's authentic.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Doc, a while back, you said you'd stick to divers and leave other genres to some brands you knew were doing good work in those areas. Are these them?
> 
> Speaking of other brands, did you ever say which one is also using the name Vanguard? I searched a couple times without figuring it out.
> 
> Thanks.


I recall saying something like that, but not exactly that, I don't think. I have some thoughts about some non-divers I might make. I don't have any plan to ONLY do divers.

I haven't done anything too dressy because I'm personally not that into dress watches, don't feel like I have anything to "add to the conversation" when it comes to dress watch design, and because I'm friendly with Sujain from Melbourne, who is making dressier stuff, and probably better at it than I'd be.

My avoidance of the style is part courtesy, part acknowledgement that I think I'd suck at it. I can't think of another style I feel that way about. NTH has only made divers so far, but that's only because we (Aaron, Rusty and I) were interested in making those designs, which just happened to be divers (Aaron is a hard core diver guy, so bear that in mind).

I've been asked to make something specific that I wasn't overly enthused about making. Not long after I'd decided to not even think about it for at least a year, if not longer, someone I know revealed he was thinking about starting his own brand, doing exactly what I said I didn't want to do, and wouldn't do.

He showed me his draft designs. I thought they were fantastic, so much so that I wondered if I hadn't made a mistake, but we decided we'd collaborate on it, with him leading design, and me helping him with the other aspects of launching a brand, so for me, it's a win-win. I get to stick to my knitting with NTH, but also be involved with another brand which I think will be offering something NTH fans want, but NTH won't produce.

When my friend is ready to reveal what he's been working on, I'll be helping him in every way I can. Until then, we're keeping it under wraps until we've got our ducks in a row.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

One micro that I think is doing interesting stuff with field watches rather than making Explorer homages is Carpenter. Not something I would buy for myself, but I definitely see the appeal.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> We're all trying to look Amish lately. Have you seen Rusty? He looks like he spent the day churning butter.


Safe for you to say. 99.99% possibility of no way, no how, of any Amish seeing that.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Tactical dress watch... hmmmm... 


Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

docvail said:


> I recall saying something like that, but not exactly that, I don't think. I have some thoughts about some non-divers I might make. I don't have any plan to ONLY do divers.
> 
> I haven't done anything too dressy because I'm personally not that into dress watches, don't feel like I have anything to "add to the conversation" when it comes to dress watch design, and because I'm friendly with Sujain from Melbourne, who is making dressier stuff, and probably better at it than I'd be.
> 
> ...


I hadn't heard of Melbourne before, but that Portsea sure looks nice. I'm a sucker for blue hands, that one might be my next watch

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That Carpenter watch is pretty suite.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Safe for you to say. 99.99% possibility of no way, no how, of any Amish seeing that.


Rusty will.

Good enough for me.



ewhulbert said:


> I hadn't heard of Melbourne before, but that Portsea sure looks nice. I'm a sucker for blue hands, that one might be my next watch


The Portsea Calendar is a gorgeous watch. If you've got a bigger wrist, it helps to pull it off. It's not really "dainty".


----------



## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

ewhulbert said:


> I hadn't heard of Melbourne before, but that Portsea sure looks nice. I'm a sucker for blue hands, that one might be my next watch


Melbourne makes great looking watches with unbelievable customer service.









They were kind enough to redial this in black for me. Loved the silver dial but my eyes needed more contrast, they happened to have a spare dial. Over the equator it went, twice. Buy with confidence.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*#4*


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Thanks, that somewhat alleviates the concerns. Definitely looking forward to the Huldra 2.0 now. I missed out (well... daftly decided not to get it) back when gen1 launched, ain't gonna make that mistake again with gen.2.


Which color way did you go with?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

3WR said:


> Speaking of other brands, did you ever say which one is also using the name Vanguard? I searched a couple times without figuring it out.
> 
> Thanks.


That would be "Smith's" Vanguard I guess...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

ryan850 said:


> Which color way did you go with?


Teal Blue with the Teal Blue bezel. Hopefully, matching the gen.1 metallic ocean-blue tone.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mrwozza70 said:


> 3WR said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of other brands, did you ever say which one is also using the name Vanguard? I searched a couple times without figuring it out.
> ...


And Gruppo Gamma, and Franck Muller...

It's not the world's least common model name for a watch. I'd rather not dwell on it, in any case.

We're making an NTH Sub called the Vanguard, because we name them all after submarines, that's a class of submarine, and we're honestly running out of good submarine names. It wasn't on my mind to think about what other brands might also be using that name for one of their past, and certainly not future models.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

For the ultimate naming issue, turns out there is a service / breed dog named "Vanguard Zelos". Now you know. https://us.working-dog.com/dogs-details/5754878/Vanguard-Zelos


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Teal Blue with the Teal Blue bezel. Hopefully, matching the gen.1 metallic ocean-blue tone.


The one I liked the best also. No date also.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

For those planning to get the restock on skipjack.


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

devilsbite said:


> Melbourne makes great looking watches with unbelievable customer service.
> 
> View attachment 14336025
> 
> ...


Oh, that is beautiful too. Like a JLC master ultra thin for a price I am willing to spend.

I'll have to keep tabs on Melbourne, I like their style. I also love Australia, still not sure I made the right choice by not moving to Brisbane when I got out of the Navy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

docvail said:


> And Gruppo Gamma, and Franck Muller...
> 
> It's not the world's least common model name for a watch. I'd rather not dwell on it, in any case.
> 
> We're making an NTH Sub called the Vanguard, because we name them all after submarines, that's a class of submarine, and we're honestly running out of good submarine names. It wasn't on my mind to think about what other brands might also be using that name for one of their past, and certainly not future models.


What about Gato as a submarine class? The USS Barb was the most decorated US sub in WW2, and they were a Gato class.

They are a submarine that took out a train! Seriously, read up on Eugene Fluckey; him and his guys were totally nuts.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ewhulbert said:


> What about Gato as a submarine class? The USS Barb was the most decorated US sub in WW2, and they were a Gato class.
> 
> They are a submarine that took out a train! Seriously, read up on Eugene Fluckey; him and his guys were totally nuts.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Spanish WIS reactions when I name a Sub "Gato"...


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Less ugly cats, more gilt.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

hwa said:


> Knickers?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Errr?! Not sure what you mean Andrew 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

MikeyT said:


> I hate guys without bellies. If I take a pic like that, you see my belly, not my feet.




I wish that was the case  My belly does stick out, I just hide it well in the photos!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> FWIW, whenever I see a watch is quartz, I immediately lose all interest in it. I think there is a reason why there are so few nicer quartz divers, why Oris doesn't make a single quartz watch, etc. When an SKX is $200, I can't make the business case for a quartz diver over like $150, and if your retail price is that low, you don't have the money to do nice/complex case finishing, high quality applied/lumed markers, nice looking hands, etc.
> 
> They don't appeal to me personally, but I understand why people like mecaquartz chronos. You get an accurate, functional chronograph that doesn't need to have the massively thick cases that Valjoux 7750 chronos require, and you're not paying for an ETA 2894-2. Both of those movements also require $300+ services after not that much time. When an NH35 is $40 though, and can go 10, 15, 20 years without being touched, exactly how much money are you really saving when you have to swap out batteries every few years?


I agree with you 100% about no interest in quartz watches and especially anything over $100 - $150. Scurfa watches are well made for what they are, (tough, well made, grab and go), but I think the only reason Scurfa can sell quartz watches for what they do ($250 ish) is the story. I mean dive watches sold by an actual, no BS, saturation diver who gets to put his watches in a real deep dive environment is not something every micro owner can do. I've looked at Scurfa watches many a time but could never quite pull the trigger when in the back of my mind I see a quartz diver on a strap for that much money... 
I am obviously in the minority though, as Paul seems to have no problem selling out his LE watches and the guys who have them seem to really like so much they buy multiples.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> So...talking to Mark about his product, how he sees it, how I saw it, how I thought the market would see it...
> 
> It's got dive-watch specs, so you could argue it's a diver. I looked at it as a diver. In Mark's view, it's a field/tactical watch, just one that happens to be over-built with dive-watch specs.
> 
> ...


Exactly the case I was making. I think there is room for quartz in the microbrand world. Good to hear it was a deliberate descision by Mark, I aploud that!
Another brand next to scurfa that comes to mind in that quartz segment is Bertucci, which I think also has a pretty strong position in the niche mark is aiming at. I would position the Windfield somewhere in-between Scurfa and Bertucci, having both diver and military/field watch appeal. Adding bezel options could strengthen that versatility between market segments.

Think something like that could easily fit with the NTH brand identity as well, though I understand the hesitance in not knowing how to reach that market segment. Though I think the line between these market segments is more fluid then you propose it here. The guy buying a TSAR could easily be the same guy buying an orient bambino - white collar on weekdays, outdoors adventure man in the weekends. Having different requirements for a rugged outdoors watch (indestructible quartz) then for an office watch (fancy mechanical). But being a watch nerd valuing attention to detail, finishing and quality construction on both kinds of watches, which (at least in my perception) is often lacking in the quartz segment.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Omegafanboy said:


> I wish that was the case  My belly does stick out, I just hide it well in the photos!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Obviously, it's not a 5-7, 250+ belly.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

About the only thing that’s keeping me from adding the Ghost as my 4th sub is that Watch Gauge logo on the caseback. I know .... it’s on the back. But I’ll know it’s there. Just like I know when a Seiko has something a tick out of alignment. Is that unreasonable?


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

Just buy it....I would if it had snowflake hands 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

3-1-1 said:


> Is that unreasonable?


IMO: Yes.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Metallman said:


> I agree with you 100% about no interest in quartz watches and *especially anything over $100 - $150*.


(my emphasis)

Just curious, how do you arrive at the $150 max valuation for a quartz watch?

Considering the extraordinary spread in the price of automatic watches, even ones using the same movement, it seems somewhat unreasonable to not extend that latitude to quartz watches as well.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

3-1-1 said:


> About the only thing that's keeping me from adding the Ghost as my 4th sub is that Watch Gauge logo on the caseback. I know .... it's on the back. But I'll know it's there. Just like I know when a Seiko has something a tick out of alignment. Is that unreasonable?


It likely is. Just don't buy it. It's not like Doc (or Watch Gauge) is having trouble selling them out.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Metallman said:


> I agree with you 100% about no interest in quartz watches and especially anything over $100 - $150. Scurfa watches are well made for what they are, (tough, well made, grab and go), but I think the only reason Scurfa can sell quartz watches for what they do ($250 ish) is the story. I mean dive watches sold by an actual, no BS, saturation diver who gets to put his watches in a real deep dive environment is not something every micro owner can do. I've looked at Scurfa watches many a time but could never quite pull the trigger when in the back of my mind I see a quartz diver on a strap for that much money...
> I am obviously in the minority though, as Paul seems to have no problem selling out his LE watches and the guys who have them seem to really like so much they buy multiples.


They clearly appeal to a certain segment of watch buyers. Same with the quartz Tuna. I would never spend anywhere near $900 on a massive quartz brick, but some people love 'em. The problem is the vast majority of people who buy dive watches are not divers, so the chief concerns aren't rugged dependability and functionality (how long has it been since a Rolex sub was a no nonsense tool watch?) but more typical WIS obsessions, which includes the movement. As for why brands like Tag and Longines can get away with charging what they do for quartz ARs and HCs, honestly I think those buyers are the people who go into ADs looking for a "nice watch," and see that the quartz version costs substantially less, and they don't care about it not being mechanical.

I was just at a festival in Portland, and a watch on the arm of one of the sellers caught my eye. I asked him about it - quartz Tag Formula 1. List on one of those is around $1K. Put the ETA 2824 in it, and now it's almost $2K. If you're not that into watches, spending nearly double for the automatic is going to be a very tough pill to swallow.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Toonces said:


> (my emphasis)
> 
> Just curious, how do you arrive at the $150 max valuation for a quartz watch?
> 
> Considering the extraordinary spread in the price of automatic watches, even ones using the same movement, it seems somewhat unreasonable to not extend that latitude to quartz watches as well.


You obviously _can_ charge way over $150 for a quartz watch if you want to, and plenty of brands do. I mean hell, you can spend over eleven THOUSAND dollars on a quartz Royal Oak. I think that idea is beyond insane, but that's me. It's a niche market though, because a large part of people's interest in watches is the movement, which is why companies like Lange and Patek go to such insane detail with their movement finishing. The calibre 2713 in the Royal Oak is very nice looking with its Geneve stripes, but it's still a quartz movement, and beyond that there's nothing to look at, just a few jewels, a coil, and a battery.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

3-1-1 said:


> About the only thing that's keeping me from adding the Ghost as my 4th sub is that Watch Gauge logo on the caseback. I know .... it's on the back. But I'll know it's there. Just like I know when a Seiko has something a tick out of alignment. Is that unreasonable?


Yes. Don't think I've ever considered a case back before buying a watch, except exhibition vs. closed.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_7107.jpg


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> You obviously _can_ charge way over $150 for a quartz watch if you want to, and plenty of brands do. I mean hell, you can spend over eleven THOUSAND dollars on a quartz Royal Oak. I think that idea is beyond insane, but that's me. It's a niche market though, because a large part of people's interest in watches is the movement, which is why companies like Lange and Patek go to such insane detail with their movement finishing. The calibre 2713 in the Royal Oak is very nice looking with its Geneve stripes, but it's still a quartz movement, and beyond that there's nothing to look at, just a few jewels, a coil, and a battery.


Well, I see it like this. I just checked on Gnomon; the Squale 101 Atmos, 1521 and 1545 both share the ETA 2824-2 movement. They retail for $1250, $850, and $570 respectively. Again, all share the same movement. So what accounts for the price difference?

This is my point on quartz watches. It's NOT just the movement that determines the cost of the watch. It's all those other factors that Squale clearly puts into their watches, as do other brands.

I'm not saying that a buyer can't decide an appropriate price for a watch, but I think to arbitrarily pick some number just because a watch is quartz is to miss some of the qualities that holistically determine a watch's value.

Anyway, interesting discussion so thanks for sharing your thoughts.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

MikeyT said:


> Obviously, it's not a 5-7, 250+ belly.


True, 6'5 and 240. I need to loose about 40-50 pounds to be without the gut 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> Exactly the case I was making. I think there is room for quartz in the microbrand world. Good to hear it was a deliberate descision by Mark, I aploud that!
> Another brand next to scurfa that comes to mind in that quartz segment is Bertucci, which I think also has a pretty strong position in the niche mark is aiming at. I would position the Windfield somewhere in-between Scurfa and Bertucci, having both diver and military/field watch appeal. Adding bezel options could strengthen that versatility between market segments.
> 
> Think something like that could easily fit with the NTH brand identity as well, though I understand the hesitance in not knowing how to reach that market segment. Though I think the line between these market segments is more fluid then you propose it here. The guy buying a TSAR could easily be the same guy buying an orient bambino - white collar on weekdays, outdoors adventure man in the weekends. Having different requirements for a rugged outdoors watch (indestructible quartz) then for an office watch (fancy mechanical). But being a watch nerd valuing attention to detail, finishing and quality construction on both kinds of watches, which (at least in my perception) is often lacking in the quartz segment.


I agree there is room for quartz in the MB world. I'm just not sure how much room, or if I want to try and squeeze my fat a$$ into it.

It was a deliberate decision by Mark. Here's the thing - a lot of guys have gotten my advice (some of it requested, some of it forced upon them). Most have ignored it (hence the term, "askholes"), but I try to remember to always add something to make it clear that I could always be wrong, so, take it for what it's worth.

In Mark's case, it seemed to me like he heard everything I said, carefully considered it, and decided to do something different, BUT (and this is a big "but"), he was actually prepared with some good benchmark examples to use as competitive "bogeys". If someone is going to completely disregard my advice (he applied a lot of it, in his defense), I always appreciate it when I can see that someone actually has good reasons for doing it. Otherwise, I have to admit, I wonder if they think I'm just an idiot.

I think Scurfa is seriously underpricing his product. I don't know enough about Bertucci to have an opinion about them. If those are the two examples, though, I already know I don't want to be in that part of the market. In fact, Scurfa was the first brand I thought of when Mark told me what he was planning. My business doesn't have the bandwidth to support the added volume we'd need to produce to rationalize selling under $300 watches. I'm happy staying north of $500.

I think Marathon and Ares are better benchmarks for Mark, particularly Ares, since the specs and branding are similar, which leads me to believe the target customer is essentially the same.

If Mark crushes it with the Winfield Mission Timer, good on him. If his price is in the same range I play in, even better on him.

But even if that's how it plays out, and even if I thought there was a quartz model which would fit into NTH, I'm still not sure I'd want to be in the >$500 quartz watch business. But, if I was going to be in that business, I think I'd be doing what Mark's doing.

Installing a 10-year battery movement is a good move, in my opinion. It silences some of the usual "I hate changing batteries" complaints about quartz, and removes the possibility he'll be getting warranty claims from guys who fried the module doing their own battery replacements. It's "Swiss", so the "Swiss" snobs will approve, and the specs/quality help justify a higher price tag.

Honestly, there are some cool quartz watches, but when a brand has the same model offered as either quartz or auto, I always end up looking at the auto version. Yes, I'm a mechanical movement snob. But I'm not a hypocritical snob, so I can still live with myself. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for me to become the next King of Quartz.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> About the only thing that's keeping me from adding the Ghost as my 4th sub is that Watch Gauge logo on the caseback. I know .... it's on the back. But I'll know it's there. Just like I know when a Seiko has something a tick out of alignment. Is that unreasonable?


If it's going to stick in your craw, don't get it. I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically. Life's too short to be buying watches you don't really love.

But, for whatever it's worth, I think credit should be given where it's due. I wouldn't have been making all these Nazario versions if it wasn't for John. When we did the first draft designs, along with all the Subs we were releasing around the same time we did the first Nazario, I ranked them in order of best-to-worst designs, just based on how I thought they'd sell. I put the Nazario at the bottom of that list.

John wanted us to make a version that he'd be able to sell exclusively through Watch Gauge, so I showed him the Nazario, along with some other designs we weren't putting into immediate production. He flipped for the Nazario. Fast forward about 2 years, we've made 4 versions, with another in the works, they're always popular, and used ones will often sell for more than people paid for them when new.

He runs a nice little business. He's helped grow my business a good bit. We've become good friends. He takes great care of his customers, many of whom are my customers.

I think he's earned having his logo on the caseback, but that's just my $0.02.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr_Finer_Things said:


> Just buy it....I would if it had snowflake hands
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But then it wouldn't be a Nazario...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Toonces said:


> (my emphasis)
> 
> Just curious, how do you arrive at the $150 max valuation for a quartz watch?
> 
> Considering the extraordinary spread in the price of automatic watches, even ones using the same movement, it seems somewhat unreasonable to not extend that latitude to quartz watches as well.


FWIW, I don't agree with it, but I do understand it.

The WIS way is to look at the specs, see what else can be had with those specs, find the lowest price, and make that the benchmark for value.

It's a debate I've had many times, in other forms, often when people set an arbitrary limit on what they'll pay for a "microbrand" watch, or a watch with the Seiko NH35 or Miyota 9015 in it.

Every watch is (hopefully) more than the sum of its component costs and spec sheet. If you put a Seiko NH35 into a bronze case with crazy-high WR, throw a meteorite dial on it, and a ceramic bezel, and ship it with $100 worth of kit, you're telling me you'll ONLY spend $300 on that? Well, Zelos sold the Hammerhead with an NH35 in it for a helluva lot more than that. He had to, because of the total production costs when you start adding up bronze, ceramic, $100 worth of kit, etc.

If a quartz watch costs as much to make as an NTH Sub, why shouldn't it sell for what an NTH Sub sells for? That just seems logical to me.

If you agree that's logical, then we have to go back and ask why some guys are putting limits on quartz, microbrand, Seiko, Miyota, etc. Why is it they'll only pay more if it's mechanical, "Swiss", mainstream brand, blah, blah, blah? That's just ingrained bias messing with people's heads. Value is in the eye of the beholder.

Like I said, I was convinced Mark was over-pricing the Mission Timer when he first told me about it. I thought, "How the hell can you charge that much when Scurfa is blowing out good quality quartz divers for $200 a pop?" Well, how are Ares and Marathon getting >$700 for quartz watches? In that context, I realized he was under-pricing it. I told him he might as well charge what it's worth, in that case.

The way I see it - if it's not going to sell because it's "too expensive", then you might as well raise the price even more, to where it really ought to be, based on your costs. You can risk failing because your price is too high, or you can risk failing because it's not high enough, but if you try to split the difference, you're risking both.

Once you're over the "guys on the forums will think you're nuts" barrier (think about Monta, as an example), you're already risking failure because the price is too high, so you might as well charge enough that it's not also too low, based on your costs. At least you have a chance of success in that scenario.

No one needs a $200 Scurfa any more than they need a $600 NTH. Honestly, both Scurfa and NTH should be charging more. People pay what you ask them to pay when you make them want to pay it. It's that simple.

The trick is making them want to.


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Toonces said:


> (my emphasis)
> 
> Just curious, how do you arrive at the $150 max valuation for a quartz watch?
> 
> Considering the extraordinary spread in the price of automatic watches, even ones using the same movement, it seems somewhat unreasonable to not extend that latitude to quartz watches as well.


That's a fair question, the reason I have a max valuation of around $150 for a quartz watch is because for not much more than that you're into a decent watch with an automatic movement. I have several watches that cost way less than $300 that have either a swiss made or quality Japanese automatic movement. That may sound a little biased but that's the way my mind works. 
I have spent way more than $150 for a quartz watch when I first started collecting but that was before I knew a lot about automatic movements. Don't get me wrong, I still own lots of quartz watches but I just don't see myself spending as much for a quartz watch as I do for an automatic.


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> But then it wouldn't be a Nazario...


I'll be honest I love the watches but get confused with what specifically makes each model it's own at times.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Toonces said:


> Well, I see it like this. I just checked on Gnomon; the Squale 101 Atmos, 1521 and 1545 both share the ETA 2824-2 movement. They retail for $1250, $850, and $570 respectively. Again, all share the same movement. So what accounts for the price difference?
> 
> This is my point on quartz watches. It's NOT just the movement that determines the cost of the watch. It's all those other factors that Squale clearly puts into their watches, as do other brands.
> 
> ...


Sure, that makes sense, but there will still be a large segment of the watch buying population that will see it as "just a quartz watch" even if it's 30ATM rated, has nice finishing, sapphire glass, a quality bracelet, etc. You could argue that the Seiko SBDJ013 is a bargain because it's an ISO certified titanium diver that costs half as much as a Shogun does. If you don't care that it's solar quartz and not mechanical, it is a bargain. I do, so I'd much rather spend the $500 or so on an automatic.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Metallman said:


> Don't get me wrong, I still own lots of quartz watches but I just don't see myself spending as much for a quartz watch as I do for an automatic.


I think a lot of folks feel the same way. Heck, I guess even I do to some extent, but that is purely from hanging around on WUS, and through assimilation being convinced that that's the right answer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Metallman said:


> That's a fair question, the reason I have a max valuation of around $150 for a quartz watch is because for not much more than that you're into a decent watch with an automatic movement. I have several watches that cost way less than $300 that have either a swiss made or quality Japanese automatic movement. That may sound a little biased but that's the way my mind works.
> I have spent way more than $150 for a quartz watch when I first started collecting but that was before I knew a lot about automatic movements. Don't get me wrong, I still own lots of quartz watches but I just don't see myself spending as much for a quartz watch as I do for an automatic.


So...this sort of logic actually does make more sense than what I hear from most guys putting arbitrary limits on whatever.

You could extend this up and down, and outward. Like, if you can get a watch with a 9015 for $600, then maybe you can rationalize limiting your NH35's to $500 (I'm just making up the numbers here, fill in whatever values you want).

I do understand it, but only so far as you're making more-or-less apples-to-apples comparisons. That sort of logic starts to fall apart when you're comparing a $200 Tissell with a 9015 to an $800 Zelos Hammerhead with an NH35. You have to be able to consider the whole package - all the specs, all the components, the relative quality, etc.

I don't like quartz, or Tunas, so I don't have any idea what makes the quartz Tuna a $900 watch, but I figure the guys who pay $900 for them must know, otherwise, why are they paying it?

In that context, I think we're all just working off our own preferences/biases, which just are what they are (I'm in the no-quartz crowd, too), but we sometimes feel the need to justify our preferences with some sort of logic.

To me, that's just a recipe for endless online arguments. Everyone's preferences/biases are their own, and no one needs to defend them, so long as you don't try to impose them on everyone else (which is what a lot of people do, with all this "value for money" and "Swiss"/non-micro talk really is).

Tell me you prefer automatic, because you just do, and as such, you don't feel like paying more than $X for a quartz watch, I'm right there with you. But if you start trying to build a case for why NO quartz should be more than $X, you lost me, the same way you'd lose me if you told me you'd never pay more than $500 for a micro, or more than $500 for a watch with an NH35, or whatever.

It's no different than "I can't believe NTH has the balls to charge almost $700 for a Sub, with 'only' a 9015 in it, and a Chinese-made case, blah, blah, blah...".

People like it, people pay it, and those other people who can't believe it just don't get it.


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

I guess I want a Nacken Modern Ghost (alternate name Hunt for 31st of October)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Metallman said:


> That's a fair question, the reason I have a max valuation of around $150 for a quartz watch is because for not much more than that you're into a decent watch with an automatic movement. I have several watches that cost way less than $300 that have either a swiss made or quality Japanese automatic movement. That may sound a little biased but that's the way my mind works.
> I have spent way more than $150 for a quartz watch when I first started collecting but that was before I knew a lot about automatic movements. Don't get me wrong, I still own lots of quartz watches but I just don't see myself spending as much for a quartz watch as I do for an automatic.


I did the same. Two Citizen Eco-drives at around $700 a pop, and something like $450 on a Lum-tec. Then I bought an SKX with its garbage finishing and jangly, crappy bracelet, fell in love with it and its mechanical heart, and immediately got bored of all of my quartz watches. All of them were sold off not long after. I'd much rather have a $70 Seiko 5 than a $1,000 UHP quartz watch. Mechanical watches are cool. Quartz watches tell the time.

Still have the SKX, which is in the process of getting its third mod, and I'm doing another one, a "jade ninja" with the jade monster dial in a PVD SKX case. Cheap automatics are fun in a way that cheap quartz watches just aren't.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr_Finer_Things said:


> I'll be honest I love the watches but get confused with what specifically makes each model it's own at times.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Barracudas - traditional Submariner dial pattern (triangle, circles, rectangles), snowflake hands, gilt accents, bezels with no minor minute markers (just markers every 5 min).

Nackens - snowflake Submariner dial pattern (triangle, squares, rectangles), snowflake hands.

- "Modern" - White frosted hands and applied markers on a matte dial, no minor minute markers on bezel, every minute marker on the dial is lumed.

- "Vintage" - brushed steel hands and printed markers on a sandpaper dial, usually no minor minute markers (we splurged on the vintage white), only the hour markers are lumed.

- "Renegade" - uhm...pass. It's basically a mash-up of Modern and Vintage with some twists all its own.

Scorpenes - big-number pilot dials, full-lumed (no visible frames) pilot/sword hands, and inverted aviator's triangle on the bezel, full 60-minute bezel, insane lume everywhere.

Odins - Vintage Seamasterish - '67-'70 SM 300 dial pattern, but without the 3-6-9-12 numbering.

Amphions - MilSubish - Traditional Submariner dial pattern, full 60-minute bezel, sword hands.

- "Modern" - Applied markers, white lume.

- "Vintage" - printed markers, vintage lume, sandpaper dials.

Santa Cruz/Santa Fe - White dials with Mercedes Hands and 15-minute markers on the bezel.

- "Cruz" - Waffle dial, vintage lume, blue bezel

- "Fe" - Full lume ricepaper dial, black bezel.

Nazarios - California dials, cathedral hands, Watch Gauge logo on the case back. Usually some other crazy $hlt.

Dolphins - Leaf-shaped hands, complemented by the shape of the applied markers at 3-6-9 and 12. Stainless bezels, no minor minute markers. Sunburst dial finish.

All the other versions so far have been one of one, but if we make more versions of those versions (like, a blue Skipjack or Bahia, or a black Vanguard, as purely hypothetical examples), then you'd see that other than the color, the models which share a name would all share certain features, most obviously the dial pattern, bezel pattern, and handset. So a Skipjack in another color would still be a Skipjack, because they'd both have arrow-hands and trapezoid markers.

Seriously, why don't I own a Skipjack?


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> Seriously, why don't I own a Skipjack?


I've been asking myself that same question. Not only is the sub design freaking laid-back cool, but the sub class it's named after is bad a$$. It's really got everything.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Barracudas -
> 
> Nackens -
> 
> ...


How I read that.

Also, excellent question.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Still hoping that Amphions Modern will be restock


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

You never see amphion moderns for sale, yet doc won’t make ‘em. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Twehttam said:


> I've been asking myself that same question. Not only is the sub design freaking laid-back cool, but the sub class it's named after is bad a$$. It's really got everything.


This x 100. The ****in' Skipjack is so awesome. When I buy my next NTH, that's the pick of the litter for sure.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Here are some photos of skipjack


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

docvail said:


> If it's going to stick in your craw, don't get it. I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically. Life's too short to be buying watches you don't really love.
> 
> But, for whatever it's worth, I think credit should be given where it's due. I wouldn't have been making all these Nazario versions if it wasn't for John. When we did the first draft designs, along with all the Subs we were releasing around the same time we did the first Nazario, I ranked them in order of best-to-worst designs, just based on how I thought they'd sell. I put the Nazario at the bottom of that list.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input. Whats dumb is I actually like WatchGauge a lot. Bought two of my three subs from him, and I agree totally about the service quality. I'm sure I'll buy again. And its not even a bad looking logo. But you're also right about it bugging me, and for that reason I should probably pass. 
I look at it like this: its not really putting his brand out there, what with it buried against my wrist, so whats it for? I would be the same annoyed if the exclusive blue Seiko Alpinist had a "Hodinkee" logo on the back. Still a watch I love, but boogered up (imo) with extraneous logo. Watch OCD is a funny thing.
I am curious though, was the WG stamp you're idea or WG's?


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

I wonder how many people didn’t buy a watch because it had Tiffany or Comex on the dial.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Nikita70 said:


> I wonder how many people didn't buy a watch because it had Tiffany or Comex on the dial.


Lets not confuse aesthetics with regret!

I'd never have wanted to buy a new comex, and would always regret the inability at the time to predict the future market.

That's true of so many things.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I think a special edition of a watch, with a unique / collab logo on the caseback, is the right way to go. It doesn't impede the on-wrist aesthetics, but the back is clear proof that this is a special, collaborative version.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

...









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Did anyone complain about the Nth logo on the Carolina?








Asking for a friend.

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> So...this sort of logic actually does make more sense than what I hear from most guys putting arbitrary limits on whatever.
> 
> You could extend this up and down, and outward. Like, if you can get a watch with a 9015 for $600, then maybe you can rationalize limiting your NH35's to $500 (I'm just making up the numbers here, fill in whatever values you want).
> 
> ...


For me, I draw the line at quartz vs. automatic but I don't judge a watch entirely on just the movement type. I don't have an inner voice that says, oh too bad, if that watch only had this type of automatic movement in it I would buy it right now or I won't pay this much for a watch because it "only" has this type/brand of movement. As you say, I value the watch as a whole entity, including after sale service, before making a decision. 
That said, there are times where I "justify" a purchase because it does have "better" movement. It moves the meter enough to make me want to buy a watch, but it's not the main determining factor.

To show an example of valuing a watch as a whole package, let's take your Tissell example a little further. I've looked long and hard at the Subs because "I" think they are a good (specs wise) overall VFM. BUT I know going in that if anything goes wrong, I'm on my own cause I'm not paying shipping back to Korea for any warranty work. I also know the build quality of a $200 watch, and as of yet I'm not convinced that I want to roll the dice with that brand.

Let's look at the other end of the spectrum (for me). I also own a Zelos Hammerhead, titanium, meteorite dial with a NH35 that I bought at the "launch" price, not the full price. Why is that important to note? Because for me, I simply won't pay what he wants ($950 full price) for that particular watch, there is a limit to my desires. I didn't care it "only" had a NH35, I payed up for the meteorite dial, because I've always wanted one and most on-line examples I've seen looked washed out, Zelos is not.

Now let's look at the difference customer service makes. I had a (minor) issue with the machining on the bracelet, I contacted Elshan and he sent me a new watch on his dime. He didn't even wait for me to send the original one back which was fortunate because the replacement wasn't any better. He also send me a pre-paid return label, so I returned the replacement watch and explained I could live with the original bracelet. Did Elshan complain about paying for shipping a new watch only to have me say sorry I can live with the first one, no he didn't. It's this type of customer service that will keep me coming back as a customer, even if I have to pay a little more, because I know Elshan stands behind his product whereas I have yet to buy a Tissell because I know there isn't any after the sale support.

So, by now you might be wondering why did I keep the watch if the machining was so terrible? The first thing was knowing a replacement wasn't really any better than what I had, and the same reason guys ..... to you about something on one of your watches yet refuse to send it back. I really liked the watch, and in the end decided the minor variance (not defect) wasn't a deal breaker.

What does this WOT have to do with my previous post about quartz watches over $150? Not much, other than to point out that not everybody is driven solely by specs and maybe an insight to how there's more than one line in the sand....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> I've been asking myself that same question. Not only is the sub design freaking laid-back cool, but the sub class it's named after is bad a$$. It's really got everything.


#true



3WR said:


> How I read that.
> 
> Also, excellent question.


I may have to answer it by pulling one out of this current batch.



liquidtension said:


> Still hoping that Amphions Modern will be restock


Maybe soon is the time.



hwa said:


> You never see amphion moderns for sale, yet doc won't make 'em.


I mean...that by itself doesn't mean anything. If we made 100 of them, some portion of the buyers would flip them, but after a while, everyone who has one keeps it. That doesn't necessarily indicate that there's massive demand for more.

That said, the Subs range might be a bit overweighted in Barracudas and Nackens, so we can look at making some more Amphions, maybe.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> This x 100. The ****in' Skipjack is so awesome. When I buy my next NTH, that's the pick of the litter for sure.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> Thanks for the input. Whats dumb is I actually like WatchGauge a lot. Bought two of my three subs from him, and I agree totally about the service quality. I'm sure I'll buy again. And its not even a bad looking logo. But you're also right about it bugging me, and for that reason I should probably pass.
> I look at it like this: its not really putting his brand out there, what with it buried against my wrist, so whats it for? I would be the same annoyed if the exclusive blue Seiko Alpinist had a "Hodinkee" logo on the back. Still a watch I love, but boogered up (imo) with extraneous logo. Watch OCD is a funny thing.
> I am curious though, was the WG stamp you're idea or WG's?


It was Serious Watches'.

Kaj at Serious Watch asked if we could put the SW logo on the Holland. John saw that. You can figure out the rest.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

23 days so far, swimming with the santa cruz every day in (cold) saltwater. Everything works fine, nothing's jammed, nothings worn, bracelet screws remain firmly in place, links and clasp work fine despite sand and seaweed, there are no residues, no issues. The bezel action has gotten better i.e. more consistent, smoother tension curve (exactly in line with most of my previous subs - might be some factory lubricant finally getting loosened up).

Bracelet is NOT a hairpuller at all. Weight distribution on wrist is also great, no imbalances (even while running, with a slightly loose-fit bracelet).

It's a perfect summer watch.

And yes, several ppl have commented about it looking nice and/or expensive.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

anyway.
















Inspired design, and it's clearly a bracelet watch, so I don't need to go on a strap quest. Small mercies.
Thank you doc, as always.

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

illumidata said:


> anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats! I'll be swapping bands when I get mine, cuz that's what I do. I'll gladly take that job on 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> So...this sort of logic actually does make more sense than what I hear from most guys putting arbitrary limits on whatever.
> 
> You could extend this up and down, and outward. Like, if you can get a watch with a 9015 for $600, then maybe you can rationalize limiting your NH35's to $500 (I'm just making up the numbers here, fill in whatever values you want).
> 
> ...


This^

Just because a mechanical watch snob will not pay over 150 for a quartz watch, doesn't mean there isn't someone who actually prefers the accuracy of quartz, and also wants sapphire, good water resistance, and great build quality and finish - and is willing to pay for that.

Personally it saddens me a bit, that if I want the build quality offered at the 500-1.5k price segment, my quartz options are rather limited. Don't get me wrong, there are some great options out there, but there is not nearly as much variety as in the mechanical segment in that price bracket.

WUS has a strong bias towards mechanical movements, which creates the sentiment that quartz shouldn't cost more than [arbitrary low number]. But it doesn't mean there isn't a market for it. It might be a smaller market, but honestly can't really judge - my image is strongly influenced by WUS, which has an obvious bias towards mechanical movements.

However, you need to be a bit of a watch nerd to spend over 500$ on a watch (generally). And there is a big chance you stumble upon a watch forum if you are nerd enough. And if you stumble into WUS need to be rather strong minded to not be persuaded by that mechanical movement bias on here. So I guess the watch nerd market segment is generally biased towards mechanical movements.

I guess the larger part of the quartz market segment is not on these forums, but are the people that are into other hobbies that appreciate high quality gear, which might include watches.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

I do want to say that John at WatchGauge is phenomenal.

Oh and rebuying the BVB because I flipped and regretted.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> I think a special edition of a watch, with a unique / collab logo on the caseback, is the right way to go. It doesn't impede the on-wrist aesthetics, but the back is clear proof that this is a special, collaborative version.


My personal $0.02 is that it all depends.

We've done collabs with alternate/additional markings in various places.

I thought the Commander 300 project turned out really well, with the Naval reserve rank insignia replacing the often-polarizing L&H logo on the dial, but keeping Sparky on the crown, and putting the WUS logo discretely on the caseback, which was also very well-done, with its Bond-inspired rifling design.

I think that balanced approach had something for everybody. But depending on how you felt about the L&H or WUS logo, you could argue both were more or less inconspicuous, or you might not be able to get past their inclusion, no matter how discrete.

For the Catalina project with the Urban Gentry, I thought it would turn people off to put the TUG logo on the dial, and I know it did turn some people off. I personally thought the Carolina BSHT project might have been better with the logos reversed - big NTH at 12, small BSHT at 6, or just on the case-back. When the guys at Watch Wonderland wanted their version of the DevilRay to have DevilFox on the dial, and their mascot on the caseback, I wasn't sure how well that would go over.

But, when I get involved in any project with other people who want to have input into the design, especially when they're the customers who are buying it, I try to limit how much I impose my own will or design sensibilities on the project. It seems like the desire to represent another person, business or group in a visible way is a constant with all these projects, and so I expect that we'll be co-branding the design in some way, somewhere.

Looking at the ones we've done, and those I've seen others do, I think what we feel about each has a lot to do with how we feel about the aesthetic presentation, and the other entities being represented.

Even if you don't mind the Urban Gentry's logo, if you hate the Urban Gentry, you're not going to buy the Catalina, and it wouldn't matter if we moved the logo to the caseback. Likewise, even if you like John and Watch Gauge, maybe you just hate the logo, and even having it on the case back is too much.

With the Comex/Tiffany Rolexes, the fact that they were made so long ago, and become so collectible makes it harder to know for sure how we'd have viewed them at the time.

My hunch is that the unbalanced novel of text they put on the ref 1680 Tiffany Sub would have turned me off, especially since people who got them had to buy them from Tiffany's. But I might have been okay with the ref 5513 Comex Sub, especially given the fact that it was made for Comex divers, with beefed up specs, and the watershed innovation of the HEV.

















I would bet that people within the Comex community felt more allegiance to Comex than the typical watch buyer would feel towards Tiffany's, which is why I think the BSHT logo on the Carolina wasn't the sticking point that the Urban Gentry logo was on the Catalina. Same with the Commander 300 and DevilFox - the C300 was a forum project for F71, whereas the DevilFox isn't as likely to inspire the same sort of feelings among potential buyers, unless they have a strong affinity for Watch Wonderland.

The Comex Sub, BSHT Carolina and C300 being projects for a specific group of people probably made the co-branding much less of a sticking point than the co-branding on a watch people have to want enough to accept the added branding of the other designers or stores selling it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

illumidata said:


> Did anyone complain about the Nth logo on the Carolina?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not to me, at least not that I can remember.

We had somewhere around 35-36 Carolinas sold before we started production, which I deliberately limited to 40, precisely because I figured there were a few guys who'd join the BSHT party and want one, but I wasn't going to bet heavy that people who had no idea what the BSHT is would want one. If we'd sold 45 by that point, I'd have made 50.

If we'd made 100, I doubt we'd have sold them all, because the BSHT faithful isn't that large or monolithic. So I capped it at a few more pieces than we had sold at that point, and put the Barracuda Vintage Black into immediate production, knowing that I could easily sell 100 of those, to NTH fans, without the BSHT logo on it.

Win-win, IMO.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

illumidata said:


> Inspired design, and it's clearly a bracelet watch, so I don't need to go on a strap quest. Small mercies.
> Thank you doc, as always.


Tempted. Nice incoming!!

So, what's the antithesis of my Holland? What's the yin to my yang?

Nazario Ghost is a contender. NMB is also tempting... or I wait for the Tikuna or Amphion Commando.

I see what you're doing here, Doc...


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Twehttam said:


> So, what's the antithesis of my Holland? What's the yin to my yang?


Oof. Now there's a question.
Let's see...
req:
- NON-merc hands
- NON-dot indices
- Bezel should be equal to dial color, OR bezel should be lighter than dial
- NON-shiney dial (matte)
- NON-sparse bezel print (needs minute indices)
- NON-applied indices
- NON-silver hands
- NON-white lume
- NON-blue dial
- NON-brown bezel


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

^^ Or that, uva. :-!

Love the contrasting lume. Nice shot!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Metallman said:


> For me, I draw the line at quartz vs. automatic but I don't judge a watch entirely on just the movement type. I don't have an inner voice that says, oh too bad, if that watch only had this type of automatic movement in it I would buy it right now or I won't pay this much for a watch because it "only" has this type/brand of movement. As you say, I value the watch as a whole entity, including after sale service, before making a decision.
> That said, there are times where I "justify" a purchase because it does have "better" movement. It moves the meter enough to make me want to buy a watch, but it's not the main determining factor.
> 
> To show an example of valuing a watch as a whole package, let's take your Tissell example a little further. I've looked long and hard at the Subs because "I" think they are a good (specs wise) overall VFM. BUT I know going in that if anything goes wrong, I'm on my own cause I'm not paying shipping back to Korea for any warranty work. I also know the build quality of a $200 watch, and as of yet I'm not convinced that I want to roll the dice with that brand.
> ...


I'm picking up what you're putting down. I wouldn't want you to feel the need to defend your decision-making to me, because I honestly don't have any problem with it, and as long as we're not arguing about what I sell, what you buy and why is none of my business. If all that is just expounding on the topic, for its own sake, I get it, and can't really argue with any of it.

As for Zelos vs Tissell - I've heard enough to be certain Elshan offers great service. Maybe too great, based on your story, which helps illustrate why I will often take the stance I do, when someone complains about something that is actually within our QC standards.

I'm not picking on Elshan. I'd say the same thing to the guys in our MB workshop. As a brand owner, we need to know our own quality, and understand the dynamics of the market we sell to.

If a guy complains about something within our QC standards, which are very tight, the odds are extremely high he's going to find something to complain about in any replacement we send him. So in that scenario, I just try to get the watch back, and issue a refund, rather than play inventory-inspector-bingo with the guy. I'm not going to send him every piece in my inventory until he finds the one he feels is "perfect". Better to cut my losses where they are.

Ironically, I wouldn't be surprised if Tissell's service is better than you'd expect given their price. I'm sure I've read stories about brands that sell very low-price watches just sending out replacements without a lot of hassle. I guess at some point, the cost of the watch is so low, and the cost of shipping and time spent dealing with complaints are both so high that it just makes more sense to ship a replacement and hope for the best. I can't do that with an NTH Sub, so I need to be a bit more rigid in my handling of those situations.

I'm not making an argument in favor of buying a Tissell, but...it's $200, how bad could it possibly be, and how much can you really complain about at that price? If you get some small imperfection on a $600-$700 watch, I understand it's more annoying than it would be on a $200 watch, despite my understanding that the $600-$700 watch might actually be a good enough bargain (given its higher production costs), enough of a bargain to overlook some minor peccadillos.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Twehttam said:


> Tempted. Nice incoming!!
> 
> So, what's the antithesis of my Holland? What's the yin to my yang?
> 
> ...


Goôd luck with the decision making. I don't think it ends with a binary match though, there's like a tertiary or quadratic order of balance you can get to.



Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Quartz is a funny thing. Here I was just the other day thinking, "Man, sure do wish I had $8k to drop on one of those new Citizens with the Caliber 0100 movement..."

Near the top of my want/grail list is either a Grand Seiko 9f or Citizen Chronomaster A660, both HAQ watches in the $2-3k range.

Of the 7 watches in current rotation, 4 are quartz: Casio G-Shock DW-5600 because G-Shock, a dressier watch my dad got me for Christmas, Seiko SNE031 solar, a funky Fossil fashion watch I just couldn't pass up for $20, and a watch so nice I bought it twice, the discontinued Seiko SBQJ017:









Paid what I thought was a mint for one of these, used, $550. Then sold it in a moment of weakness to a guy for whom this was a unicorn, realized my horrible, horrible mistake and nearly immediately tracked another one down in lesser condition but "only" $350.

It's got the Seiko 8f56 movement, which is a "HEQ" movement, supposedly accurate to 20spy, perpetual calendar, travelers GMT function, Ti case measuring at 40x46, Ti bracelet, sapphire crystal, 10yr battery life... I mean, damn -- how much would you have to pay for all that in a mechanical watch? What's the cheapest mechanical watch you can find even with only a travelers GMT function?

Recently, I was tracking an auction for an SBCJ019, which is an Alpinist with the 8F56 movement -- lost interest when it headed north of $800, and eventually sold for $1200.

For the same money, I can get a Seiko 5 with 7s26 movement, a Seiko Solar, or a Seiko Quartz with Ti case/bracelet and sapphire crystal. And I'm currently weighing a couple different field watches -- a Heimdallr IWC Mark homage at $150 (Seiko NH35), or a Momentum with lume dial at $175 (quartz). Casio Oceanus S100 is also on the potential purchase list, although the Gavox Aurora is where I draw the line on price for a watch like that...

Then there's FTS, who are the only movement manufacturer based in the USA, currently producing a quartz movement.

There's a lot of reasons to like quartz. Price vs. mechanical movement watches is only one of them.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> Oof. Now there's a question.
> Let's see...
> req:
> - NON-merc hands
> ...


It's a toughie... The Odin Black that uva posted is a good one that checks a lot of those boxes. Also, the Nacken Vintage White and the two newbies (particularly the Tikuna).


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> Congrats! I'll be swapping bands when I get mine, cuz that's what I do. I'll gladly take that job on
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Tanks and good luck! I'm easily swayed on these matters and can't wait to see what you come up with.

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> This^
> 
> Just because a mechanical watch snob will not pay over 150 for a quartz watch, doesn't mean there isn't someone who actually prefers the accuracy of quartz, and also wants sapphire, good water resistance, and great build quality and finish - and is willing to pay for that.
> 
> ...


Your analysis is similar to mine, and what I discussed with Mark, and other startups.

A big part of why I make watches is that I saw the value in being able to efficiently target the enthusiast market, by way of the forums and social media. But, if the enthusiast market mostly wants mechanical movements, and you want to make quartz, then you're searching for a smaller segment of that market to buy quartz, and/or you need to figure out how to reach the market that isn't hanging around forums talking about not liking quartz.

We looked at Ares and Marathon, and thought, well, they're discussed favorably on forums, so there must be SOME guys here who are okay with quartz, and they're both in that tacticool vein, so maybe that proves that there's a cohort of enthusiasts who like quartz tacticool watches, and are willing to pay more to get a good quality, well-designed quartz tacticool watch.

I suspect the demand would be higher for an automatic, but Mark doesn't need enormous demand to rationalize the choices he's making. He just needs 300 people to buy them at the price he's asking. I'm sure he'll be fine with his choices, so long as he can get the watch in front of the right customers.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> Oof. Now there's a question.
> Let's see...
> req:
> - NON-merc hands
> ...


Great breakdown. From a visual contrast perspective I think bezel lighter than dial would be the strongest distinction against the Holland. Then from an aesthetics perspective I'd go for rugged vs refined...I guess I'd pick the Commando. Doesn't hit every opposite, but not a bad match.

I do like steel coloured dive bezels, still don't have one 

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



illumidata said:


> ...I guess I'd pick the Commando. Doesn't hit every opposite, but not a bad match.


Yup, that's a strong contender! I'm also considering a O&O Humboldt, but that's 2-3x a sub, and I'm probably crazy. Tomorrow's our family's last day with our 16+ y/o pup, and Chase's story pulls at me... but I digress. Doc's got great furkid love too.  I just need some retail therapy right now, me thinks.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Twehttam said:


> Yup, that's a strong contender! I'm also considering a O&O Humboldt, but that's 2-3x a sub, and I'm probably crazy. Tomorrow's our family's last day with our 16+ y/o pup, and Chase's story pulls at me... but I digress. Doc's got great furkid love too.  I just need some retail therapy right now, me thinks.


So sorry to hear about your dog. We've all been there. I've had to put two down, by myself, and I cry like a schoolgirl every time. Our Boxer is 9, and having some health issues. That breed doesn't usually last much longer than 10 years, so I'm starting to feel the slow increase in dread for the inevitable.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

There was discussion about mesh, and I was told the difference between Milanese and Shark. Here's a Scorpene on Shark Mesh.









Got brushed instead of shiny, although shiny would probably have been fine, too. Fun to switch it up, but initially, I'm not seeing a whole lot of upshot over the stock bracelet, and already anticipate swapping back over the weekend at some point...


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

illumidata said:


> Did anyone complain about the Nth logo on the Carolina?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I personally like it for a couple reasons:

1. I think it balances the BSH logo well. 
2. The NTH logo has parallel lines that are extremely close together when that small. Seeing how well they are done under magnification reminds me of the level of attention to detail Chris puts into his watches. 
3. As a newbie to the BSH community I found this watch because of NTH rather than my attention to the community. I now like both BSH and NTH so I like having both present on the watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 14339705


Oh wow, that's cool. I wasn't a huge fan of the Odin but like it a ton more after seeing that pic.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those interested, we did some Q&A with both Zack from A&F and Mark from Winfield. We wanted to get an update on where they are now, vis-a-vis their plans for launch, and get their views post-workshop.

https://www.microbrandu.com/post/mi...s-interview-with-zack-rackovan-of-ardor-forge

https://www.microbrandu.com/post/mi...ew-with-mark-miller-of-winfield-watch-company


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Also...

There are some guys with fairly large rewards points balances. Earlier this year, someone made the point to me that the NTH website is always sold out, so how do people use their points?

Uhm...I call BS.

We released 7 models last November, we had stock on all of them. They didn't disappear overnight. We released 11 models in April/May, we had stock on all of them, except for the Barracuda Vintage Black. They didn't disappear overnight. Other than the Barracuda Vintage Black, we've had some stock on every model we've ever released.

I've been saying forever - get what you want before they sell out, because they will be gone before too long. Don't be the guy who waits, then emails me the day after they sell out to ask when we'll make more. We revealed what was coming months before we put it on sale, where were you?

We sent an email to everyone with large rewards points balances before our last release, and we did that again for this current release. The last time (April/May), I think we got maybe 10-12 people to come through and "pre-order" with their points. This time, rather than doing a secret pre-order (that was a nightmare to manage), we're just keeping a record of what folks want from this and the next couple of releases, but so far, we've only heard back from four guys on the last email.

So...I already know not everyone sees or reads the emails. I get that, but - help me to help you. I can't chase everyone down over the internet, begging them to use their points, before the inevitable day when we just never have anything for sale, ever. That day is approaching. 

The email newsletter is the one way we can reach everyone with one message at the same time. If you unsubscribed, think about resubscribing. Check your spam folders. If you don't get the emails, you unsubscribed at some point (trust me, you unsubscribed).

Please don't come at me with "the watch I want is never in stock."

If there's something you want, and you're sitting on those rewards points, you need to respond to the email we sent out, or contact us through the website, to tell us what you want (be sure to specify date/no-date). When we start sales, you need to get on the site, cash in your points, and get what you want. 

I can't help it if someone else buys the watch while you were thinking about it, or gathering the money, or whatever. What can I say? Someone else wanted it more, and bought it. I can't hide inventory, or stop people from buying what they want. 

This is NOT an invitation for everyone to bombard us with requests to get in on the next round of BVB's. We're not taking reservations from everyone. This is ONLY for those guys with at least 5,000 rewards points, especially the guys with 10k, 15k, 20k, or more. 

I don't want anyone getting angry at me later, when the retailers are taking everything before we're even done with production. Please don't put me on blast if that happens. I'm not trying to stop anyone from using their points. I'm doing all I can to facilitate people using those points. But we may not be doing direct sales forever.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Hmmm. I got the email about points, i just am waiting for something that really moves me.

I already have a modern Nacken black with date, and the Carolina. The blue Devilray, and a Spectre II.

The Skipjack spoke to me and was close. Closer even than the Odin. But just not differently new enough other than a new variation of dial and handset in the same case.

If the Skipjack keeps looking at me i might grab one on the secondhand WUS. We'll see.

Wondering whats in the pipeline?


----------



## Firecrow911 (Mar 7, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Not to me, at least not that I can remember.
> 
> We had somewhere around 35-36 Carolinas sold before we started production, which I deliberately limited to 40, precisely because I figured there were a few guys who'd join the BSHT party and want one, but I wasn't going to bet heavy that people who had no idea what the BSHT is would want one. If we'd sold 45 by that point, I'd have made 50.
> 
> ...


As an owner of a Carolina I must thank you for creating the exclusivity around that watch. Until I got my hands on one, I was disappointed, but now that I have one, it's nice to know it's remained a rather exclusive piece.

I think you could have sold more in retrospect but only if you were willing to take the risk that it would sit in inventory for a while and that's a tough call for a micro brand having capital tied up like that.

The best way to create desire and demand for a product is to simply tell people they can't have it. Look at how well that's working for Rolex.

Sent from my overpriced data plan.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Rhorya- If you want to go with a third sub, I'm thinking Amphion Commando. It's where my mind is right now as far as differentiation between what I currently have (Holland). I think it's primarily that steel 12-hour/countdown bezel. To me, that makes it look different enough and (imo) shrinks the size a bit with the contrast to the dial. For me, that's a plus with my wimpy 6" wrist.


----------



## Firecrow911 (Mar 7, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ewhulbert said:


> I personally like it for a couple reasons:
> 
> 1. I think it balances the BSH logo well.
> 2. The NTH logo has parallel lines that are extremely close together when that small. Seeing how well they are done under magnification reminds me of the level of attention to detail Chris puts into his watches.
> ...


I love it, but my only wish ( I wouldn't use the word complaint because I think the aesthetic of the choices made were very well-balanced) is that the BSH logo was a little larger. But that's also coming from a guy whose eyesight is failing and I really hate the fact that I have to throw on a pair of readers to really appreciate that Gilt dial logo.

On having the NTH logo there, I think it is a great bridge between the group and Chris's efforts to bring everything together to make that watch. And on the contrary I think the NTH brand lends value to the overall watch itself as it expresses its pedigree. The story of the BSH Carolina can't be told without the story of NTH as well.

Sent from my overpriced data plan.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Twehttam said:


> Rhorya- If you want to go with a third sub, I'm thinking Amphion Commando. It's where my mind is right now as far as differentiation between what I currently have (Holland). I think it's primarily that steel 12-hour/countdown bezel. To me, that makes it look different enough and (imo) shrinks the size a bit with the contrast to the dial. For me, that's a plus with my wimpy 6" wrist.


Which? This one?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

About quartz, I collect mostly automatics (see sig).

Yet on the odd day that I reach for my quartz Timex and notice that the watch is still ticking away and spot on accurate, I

(a) realize I collect too many automatics; and

(b) appreciate quartz just a little bit more than when hanging out on WUS.

The romantic ideas around automatics make more sense to me when I envision myself dropping down to a tiny collection of two or so automatics that I rotate every day or two.

In contrast, at 15 or so watches at present, constantly having to wake up and set my watches can get slightly old.

Who knows? Maybe I'm entering a higher end quartz phase of the hobby. Besides a GS, the "so 90s" watches that first caught my attention as a kid could be fun to own in my 30s-Bond Seamaster and, because my cool uncle had one, the gray dial Tag Heuer S/el. (Don't laugh about the S/el. It was a thing in the 90s. Ask Matt Damon.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Firecrow911 (Mar 7, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> It's no different than "I can't believe NTH has the balls to charge almost $700 for a Sub, with 'only' a 9015 in it, and a Chinese-made case, blah, blah, blah...". People like it, people pay it, and those other people who can't believe it just don't get it.


I don't know what you're talking about, I opened mine up and inside there was a midget Foxconn worker pushing around the second hand mumbling something about '该死的工作时间'. Was wondering why I had to charge my watch at night in a bowl of beef congee...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> About quartz, I collect mostly automatics (see sig).
> 
> Yet on the odd day that I reach for my quartz Timex and notice that the watch is still ticking away and spot on accurate, I
> 
> ...


For me, that need for some human involvement is one of the things I appreciate about mechanicals. I feel a connection to the machine. Maybe it's an outdated, overly romanticized way of looking at it, but it's how I feel nonetheless. It takes me 30 seconds to set the time, but it's a ritual I don't mind, even enjoy.

As compared to quartz - when it dies, it's just dead, and there's no starting it until the battery is replaced, a ritual I do not enjoy. Which is why I think it's smart for Mark to go for the 10-yr battery life.

Which brings us back to solar quartz, of course. It would be awesome if Seiko and Miyota were willing to wholesale their solar quartz movements, or (and now I know I'm dreaming), perhaps develop more versions. How about a high-beat, solar chrono or GMT? That would be cool, amirite?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Firecrow911 said:


> I don't know what you're talking about, I opened mine up and there was a midget Foxconn worker pushing around the second hand mumbling something about '该死的工作时间'. Was wondering why I had to charge my watch at night in a bowl of beef congee...


I don't know what this post is about, but I went ahead and "liked" it anyway...


----------



## Firecrow911 (Mar 7, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I don't know what this post is about, but I went ahead and "liked" it anyway...


Humor is at its worst when it has to be explained... I'll let it dangle.


----------



## Firecrow911 (Mar 7, 2019)

docvail said:


> Which brings us back to solar quartz, of course. It would be awesome if Seiko and Miyota were willing to wholesale their solar quartz movements, or (and now I know I'm dreaming), perhaps develop more versions. How about a high-beat, solar chrono or GMT? That would be cool, amirite?


Solar has a dark side (pun intended).

I have two solar powered Citizens (Chrono AT's), one is 14 years old (Blue Angel) and I ended up having to change the capacitor at year 7, and I suspect I will have to do something similar with the other now (it's approaching year 7). So on top of having to service the capacitor (which looks exactly the same as a battery), I have to stick it in the light to charge it if I have not used it for a while and wait. 3 shakes of an auto-wind and my automatic starts running. Autowind = win.

On the other hand, I own an Alpha 208 that has a 10 year battery in it. Aside from a more stable battery chemistry (ie: not worried about it dying and leaking prematurely), I know I have 10 solid years and it will probably need a service at the battery change point anyways. I bought the solar not expecting to have to ever open it except if it started exhibiting the need for a service... FAIL.

I would imagine it would also impact what you could do with the dial, given it needs light to fall on it, so your design freedom might get limited because it would have to reflect consideration for that technical necessity.

Edit: The same people who complain about watch batteries in quartz's also charge their smartphones DAILY. I'm willing to forgive a battery change in a quartz watch once every few years. First world problems.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> This^
> 
> Just because a mechanical watch snob will not pay over 150 for a quartz watch, doesn't mean there isn't someone who actually prefers the accuracy of quartz, and also wants sapphire, good water resistance, and great build quality and finish - and is willing to pay for that.
> 
> Personally it saddens me a bit, that if I want the build quality offered at the 500-1.5k price segment, my quartz options are rather limited. Don't get me wrong, there are some great options out there, but there is not nearly as much variety as in the mechanical segment in that price bracket.


There are definitely people, the question is _how many_, and does it make sense to target a small market that (generally) is less enthusiastic about your industry as a whole, and thus is less likely to seek out microbrands, which are niche to begin with. Everybody around here knows Halios. NO ONE who isn't a watch enthusiast has ever heard of them. I'm John Q. Public, I've just hit some major milestone in my life, and I want to congratulate myself with a nice watch. If I don't otherwise care about watches, I've already heard of Rolex, maybe Tag, and that's probably it. The high-end watch AD here in Portland carries Rolex, Tudor, Tag, B&M, Breitling, Raymond Weil, and Tissot. If I'm not looking to spend Rolex cash (and very unlikely to be interested in a wait list) I'm probably going to go to Tag first, since I've heard of them, and Calibre 5 F1s and ARs cost double that of the quartz versions. I don't really care, so why would I spend 2X as much? Makes perfect sense for Tag to cater to that kind of customer.

In my opinion, it makes no sense for Halios to do the same. That guy has never heard of Halios, he's never go to go on WUS, and while he might buy a watch online, it won't be direct from a microbrand. I'm sure there are _some_ people who would like to be able to save a few hundred bucks to buy a quartz Seaforth, but not nearly enough for it to make any sense for Halios to make one. Halios sells to people who are _already_ watch enthusiasts, the vast majority of which are like me - if the Seaforth was quartz only, they'd say "nice watch, wish there was an automatic version," and buy something else.

If I'm in charge at Oris, and someone pitches an idea for a quartz Aquis, and someone else pitches an idea to bring back the Star cushion case diver with a Sellita in it, that decision is a VERY easy one to make. A vintage diver reissue is almost guaranteed to do well. A high priced quartz watch is a gamble.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> For me, that need for some human involvement is one of the things I appreciate about mechanicals. I feel a connection to the machine. Maybe it's an outdated, overly romanticized way of looking at it, but it's how I feel nonetheless. It takes me 30 seconds to set the time, but it's a ritual I don't mind, even enjoy.
> 
> As compared to quartz - when it dies, it's just dead, and there's no starting it until the battery is replaced, a ritual I do not enjoy. Which is why I think it's smart for Mark to go for the 10-yr battery life.
> 
> Which brings us back to solar quartz, of course. It would be awesome if Seiko and Miyota were willing to wholesale their solar quartz movements, or (and now I know I'm dreaming), perhaps develop more versions. How about a high-beat, solar chrono or GMT? That would be cool, amirite?


I go through involvement-appreciation phases. I sized several bracelets and fiddled around with cutting and filing a crown stem today, and have to wait on some Loctite to arrive to finish off the latter job--so I think it's just one of those rare days where I happen to be appreciating quartz simplicity over winding or time setting.

I'll be singing a different tune tomorrow when I'm back to my typical monocle-wearing mechanical-loving WIS self.

That said, I'm not bothered with battery replacement, since I've become comfortable going into most watch cases (I still shy away from front-loaded ones), having modded a bunch, having amassed good tools, and generally sticking to < $1000.

I'm with you on it being cool if cool self-perpetuating and sweeping quartz technology with cool complications was more available to cool enthusiast brands.


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> Not to me, at least not that I can remember.
> 
> We had somewhere around 35-36 Carolinas sold before we started production, which I deliberately limited to 40, precisely because I figured there were a few guys who'd join the BSHT party and want one, but I wasn't going to bet heavy that people who had no idea what the BSHT is would want one. If we'd sold 45 by that point, I'd have made 50.
> 
> ...


For illustration. Purposes


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> View attachment 14339705












Hold my beer


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> There was discussion about mesh, and I was told the difference between Milanese and Shark. Here's a Scorpene on Shark Mesh.
> 
> View attachment 14340031
> 
> ...


I'm with you. My new mesh will likely come off soon. Wasn't sure if there were brushed mesh bracelets but found myself wishing mine was less shiny. To be fair to mesh bracelets, I did buy a less expensive one as an experiment. Maybe a strapcode or other higher dollar mesh would have been more pleasing to handle and more likely to get regular use. Probably not.

That does look like a nice quality mesh. Maybe it would work on another watch.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

3WR said:


> I'm with you. My new mesh will likely come off soon. Wasn't sure if there were brushed mesh bracelets but found myself wishing mine was less shiny. To be fair to mesh bracelets, I did buy a less expensive one as an experiment. Maybe a strapcode or other higher dollar mesh would have been more pleasing to handle and more likely to get regular use. Probably not.
> 
> That does look like a nice quality mesh. Maybe it would work on another watch.


Easily brushed with scotchbrite.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

hwa said:


> Easily brushed with scotchbrite.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Capital idea. Except I don't have Scotchbrite.

Can you tell which end of the bracelet got the sanding sponge treatment? There are so many intricate, curved surfaces, I think it would be hard to knock all of the shine off. Can't brush the insides of the links which can be seen through the mesh.









Moot point really, because oyster...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I'm with you on it being cool if cool self-perpetuating and sweeping quartz technology with cool complications was more available to cool enthusiast brands.


The problem (I think) is that the more cool stuff you add to a quartz movement, the more battery life becomes an issue. I know there are 10 year quartz movements, but I don't think any of them operate like the Precisionist movement does, or even at a continual 2.5Hz like mecaquartz chrono second hands. Battery life on the Bulovas is something like 2-3 years. The capacitor in my mecaquartz style Citizen chrono was on its way out when I had that watch. It wouldn't charge past the 75% mark on the power reserve indicator, and it would last maybe 2 weeks without direct light on it instead of the usual several months with a good capacitor. When it did run out, it would take several hours sitting under my desk lamp before it was usable again. Much more annoying than an SKX hand wave.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Twehttam said:


> Yup, that's a strong contender! I'm also considering a O&O Humboldt, but that's 2-3x a sub, and I'm probably crazy. Tomorrow's our family's last day with our 16+ y/o pup, and Chase's story pulls at me... but I digress. Doc's got great furkid love too.  I just need some retail therapy right now, me thinks.


I feel your pain about your furkid. In April I actually had to push the "pink juice" on my dog myself as my son held him. Still recovering. think about the life you have given Chase. You're not shortening his life.....you're shortening his death.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Have a good weekend people......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Firecrow911 said:


> Solar has a dark side (pun intended).
> 
> I have two solar powered Citizens (Chrono AT's), one is 14 years old (Blue Angel) and I ended up having to change the capacitor at year 7, and I suspect I will have to do something similar with the other now (it's approaching year 7). So on top of having to service the capacitor (which looks exactly the same as a battery), I have to stick it in the light to charge it if I have not used it for a while and wait. 3 shakes of an auto-wind and my automatic starts running. Autowind = win.
> 
> ...


While I don't have any real argument with what you say, if you have to stick a solar in the light to charge it, that is also why you have to change batteries after 7 years. Store them where they get light. Any North-facing window sill will work. Your watches will always be charged. It is that charge-discharge cycle, particularly the discharge, that is killing the batteries. I think capacitors are long outdated. All manufacturers use rechargeable batteries now. One of my cheap Casio solars has been living on a bedroom windowsill for about 12 years, and it is always fully charged, and has never been opened.

I should say that all of my solar watches, current (four now) and past have lived on that windowsill, and I have never had a battery problem.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Apparently....Odin was also the Norse God of Lume.....apparently.........









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Firecrow911 (Mar 7, 2019)

MikeyT said:


> While I don't have any real argument with what you say, if you have to stick a solar in the light to charge it, that is also why you have to change batteries after 7 years. Store them where they get light. Any North-facing window sill will work. Your watches will always be charged. It is that charge-discharge cycle, particularly the discharge, that is killing the batteries. I think capacitors are long outdated. All manufacturers use rechargeable batteries now. One of my cheap Casio solars has been living on a bedroom windowsill for about 12 years, and it is always fully charged, and has never been opened.
> 
> I should say that all of my solar watches, current (four now) and past have lived on that windowsill, and I have never had a battery problem.


On my newer Chrono-AT they may be using rechargables, but I know on the old Blue Angels, its a capacitor - I don't think they can swap in a rechargeable, its a different power type altogether. I guess the core of my point was between the need for light and still having a battery or capacitor anyways, I don't feel like I am gaining any real advantage with solar. It is certainly interesting from a technology point of view.

A plus on the quartz side in the long term is battery tech is advancing with new forms of chemistry that will probably see better and longer performance life as the science gets better. I can see one day when you could probably have a 50 year battery, then the point becomes moot and the problem goes to whoever my inherits my estate... again, its a small quibble really, I don't find battery changes a big deal, but I get what you're saying. 14 years ago, the inside of a watch was magic to me.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> I may have to answer it by pulling one out of this current batch.


You know what? I obviously have low observation skills. I never noticed the variation in hands color on the Skipjack. Love the white/silver contrast. Yikes, I need to decide what I'm going to do here. :think: |>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> You know what? I obviously have low observation skills. I never noticed the variation in hands color on the Skipjack. Love the white/silver contrast. Yikes, I need to decide what I'm going to do here. :think: |>


If you mean that the frames of the handsets appear different in some pic, sorry if this is a disappointment, but, they aren't. All three hands are brushed steel with C3 lume.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

^^Well, at least I feel better about not missing something.

Ps, I blame Serious for their latest IG photo.  Still hot.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Firecrow911 said:


> Solar has a dark side (pun intended).
> 
> I have two solar powered Citizens (Chrono AT's), one is 14 years old (Blue Angel) and I ended up having to change the capacitor at year 7, and I suspect I will have to do something similar with the other now (it's approaching year 7). So on top of having to service the capacitor (which looks exactly the same as a battery), I have to stick it in the light to charge it if I have not used it for a while and wait. 3 shakes of an auto-wind and my automatic starts running. Autowind = win.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately this is all I see. And hate to say it my Friend, it only gets worse as we age. Nothing like the dreaded leakage of the anal variety. Now that can get messy.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I go through involvement-appreciation phases. I sized several bracelets and fiddled around with cutting and filing a crown stem today, and have to wait on some Loctite to arrive to finish off the latter job--so I think it's just one of those rare days where I happen to be appreciating quartz simplicity over winding or time setting.
> 
> I'll be singing a different tune tomorrow when I'm back to my typical monocle-wearing mechanical-loving WIS self.
> 
> ...


I do not mind the battery changes as well. What sucks horribly is I wait until I need to buy a few batteries at a time. I then replace a good 2 or 3 batteries and well.....Those batteries all go at once and rinse/repeat. It is a silly circle we get ourselves into but I guess that is what the quartz is all about.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Sorry about the leakage bit. Here is a watch. And some of my favorite pastimes, sampling adult beverages.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

My regrets for the quartz nonsense yesterday.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This just happened...


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

Email sent. 

Blue!


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> This just happened...


Yes, please.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> This just happened...
> 
> [/ATTACH=CONFIG]14342603[/ATTACH]
> 
> [/ATTACH=CONFIG]14342605[/ATTACH]


WIS EDC










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bradjhomes said:


> Email sent.
> 
> Blue!


*Colors shipped randomly, but...expect black for now. 2/3 of the order was black. I sent about 1/3 of the blue out to retailers, the rest are just sitting here at my house. I'm 80% sure all the ones headed into the warehouse are black.

Questions about what shade of blue it is start coming in 3...2...



ck2k01 said:


> WIS EDC
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had one of those C&B spring bar tools on my key chain, but somehow the tool part unscrewed itself, and was gone. Now I just have the cap.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Already have one losers!


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Gilty goodness.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Already have one losers!
> View attachment 14342739


Bill Jones School of Photography strikes again!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

About that Skipjack dial...

Someone asked recently if the dial was glossy. I think I said it wasn't. I was looking at one during QC, thinking, "Hmmmm...it does look glossy..."

I went and looked at the spec. Turns out, it is glossy. I just forgot what I specified.


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> I had one of those C&B spring bar tools on my key chain, but somehow the tool part unscrewed itself, and was gone. Now I just have the cap.


Same.

Though I removed the cap part from my key ring.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bradjhomes said:


> Same.
> 
> Though I removed the cap part from my key ring.


I thought about doing that, but I was 100% certain that the day after throwing the cap away I'd find the tool under the seat of my wife's car, or someplace similar. Murphy's law and all that.

Murphy was a sumbitch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Bradjhomes said:
> 
> 
> > docvail said:
> ...


I'm surprised no one's asked me if I put thread-locker on it.

Lost opportunity...


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Back from vacation back to an NTH










Wore a DB milops and a Mudmaster as vacation adventure beaters to fend off those seagulls and Phillies fans while at Ocean City


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Bill Jones School of Photography strikes again!


Delightful. Not a single area is in focus, and camera shake to boot!


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I believe the Bill Jones style is also referred to as sprezzatura. It’s fancy if you use an Italian word for it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> I believe the Bill Jones style is also referred to as sprezzatura. It's fancy if you use an Italian word for it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I feel fancy just reading it.


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

And all this time I thought his picture was just bokeh.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> About that Skipjack dial...
> 
> Someone asked recently if the dial was glossy. I think I said it wasn't. I was looking at one during QC, thinking, "Hmmmm...it does look glossy..."
> 
> I went and looked at the spec. Turns out, it is glossy. I just forgot what I specified.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

But it's not super glossy right? It's not like sunburst glossy


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> Zero chance soon.
> 
> Slight chance, someday, maybe.
> 
> Rinse with Tapatalk before bed, to wake up with minty-fresh breath!


Any chance a year has changed this at all.....a bronze bezel stainless case NTH sub would be wicked cool.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Took the Santa Cruz out to the FedEx St. Jude Invitational today. (Golf tournament) Seemed appropriate to me. Summery watch. White textured dial sort of like a golf ball.

Pretty decent atmosphere for watch spotting in the crowds. Later watched some TV coverage. I've never seen so many Rolex commercials. And each featuring a different model. Saw one golfer with AP sponsorship on his sleeve. Noticed Bubba Watson wears a prominent white watch. Just read article saying it is a $825k Richard Mille model named for him. I think that last part is ridiculous. But all in all, it was cool to see how much watch content there is in golf.

I like the NBA much better, but the only watch content there seems to be Tissot's sponsorship of the league and the occasional blinged out gold watch on an injured player wearing street clothes on the bench.

(By the way, if anyone ever needs a charitable cause to get behind, it doesn't get much better than St. Jude. Look into what they do and you'll be moved. I guarantee it.)


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

liquidtension said:


> But it's not super glossy right? It's not like sunburst glossy


I could be wrong. But in my mind, those are two different things. Sunburst and glossy. Both are kind of shiny but otherwise unrelated.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> But it's not super glossy right? It's not like sunburst glossy


Nope. Not sunburst. Just glossy.



Mr_Finer_Things said:


> Any chance a year has changed this at all.....a bronze bezel stainless case NTH sub would be wicked cool.


Mmmmmnnnnope.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Nope. Not sunburst. Just glossy.
> 
> Mmmmmnnnnope.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Okay... Then what about a full on chunky bronze diver? Come on and be a good sport Doc... bronze divers...mmmmmm









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Seems like ^ you’ve enough of em...

Bronze makes more sense from Lew and Huey, though I’m betting Doc says... “nope”.


Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

captainmorbid said:


> Seems like ^ you've enough of em...
> 
> Bronze makes more sense from Lew and Huey, though I'm betting Doc says... "nope".
> 
> Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


Enough? Really? Hmmmm I don't know... the number of watches one should own is dictated by a universally and scientifically validated formula. This being: NoWn= x + 1 where NoWn represents the number of watches needed by any given individual, x = the number of watches currently owned and +1, well that is fairly self explanatory!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I feel like the whole bronze craze is already on its way out. DLC "tacticool" watches I think will always be in style, but to me bronze feels like too much of a fad.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> I feel like the whole bronze craze is already on its way out.


I agree. It's getting really played out. And the bronze/SS two-tone ship has sailed too.. Aevig jumped on that color-scheme really early with their compressor-style watch, but now many "big" brands have done it (Oris has done it multiple times for years now*), so bronze-all and bronze/SS mixes are over and done for.

I suspect WUS and/or larger share of the "trendy" market will soon start switching away from _retro-style small divers_. There's been SO MANY of those, more and more each year, that ship has got to sail soon. Or call it a bubble bursting. I mean, think about it... even the big dinosaur swiss brands have caught on to the idea that "retro style small diver" is "in". Micros have been doing this style for years now. It cannot last, and imo soon we will start seeing the balance going back.

*- Oris is really running out of ideas, as well. Their Diver's 65 line is getting stupidly over-modelled and fractured, with more and more daft combinations and color palette swaps. That can't last - people got sick of Tudor doing this with the Black Bay, and ppl will very soon turn on Oris too. Plus, the latest(?) oris two-tone was a rather ill-advised mashup, putting a bracelet with SS side-pieces and bronze centerpieces on each link.



> DLC "tacticool" watches I think will always be in style


They've never been in style, and never will be. Ain't nothing more lame than a blacked out tacticool watch.


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

Just my take here but for watch trends I see the following continuing

More gold/bronze/rose gold and brighter colored dials and bezels for a while (green, pastels, yellows, reds, bright blues, etc) 

On the other end extremely subdued tool watches (carbon fiber, dlc, pvd)

Whenever the economy is good people are willing to have something a little more flashy on their wrist. I see the rise in vintage re-issues/homages and minimalist bauhaus styles as a product of the recession as much as anything.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> They've never been in style, and never will be. Ain't nothing more lame than a blacked out tacticool watch.


What I mean is the Panerai Ceramica look. These aren't going away, whereas I think the "gotta make a bronze version" is.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_2949.jpg


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I don't think bronze is played out quite yet, and while a bronze case would nicely complement a gilt dial, not even remotely pining for or suggesting a bronze case NTH. There's enough choice put there where If I wanted bronze, I could get one.

But here's a Scorpene...


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Red PeeKay said:


> Enough? Really? Hmmmm I don't know... the number of watches one should own is dictated by a universally and scientifically validated formula. This being: NoWn= x + 1 where NoWn represents the number of watches needed by any given individual, x = the number of watches currently owned and +1, well that is fairly self explanatory!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


My cheek had a tongue firmly init.

I know that formula well! I've a few bronzes meself, still eyeball shop them. Their average girth attracts me, as I have four ankles instead of the usual two. My progression has led me to the SKX stage of WIS, and lusting for sub styled arm adornment.

I just don't think, (following Doc's WOTs for a while) that bronze is a metal that is going to make an appearance from NTH.

I weirdly, kind of want to see a gold cased NTH sub... We're all flawed in some way...

Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not planning to make any bronze, titanium, all-DLC, carbon, tungsten or watches made of any other material any time soon.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

My own "jade ninja" project. I chopped out the monster chapter ring, which is why it looks a bit weird but I didn't want to try and put in the effort to edit it to make it look like it actually will without the ring. If you look at what Seiko has been doing lately, they seem to think that there's plenty of ore left in the black watch mine. Pro-hunter style mods also remain massively popular in the modding community. You don't however see them rushing to make bronze turtles or samurais.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> Not planning to make any bronze, titanium, all-DLC, carbon, tungsten or watches made of any other material any time soon.












Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> My own "jade ninja" project. I chopped out the monster chapter ring, which is why it looks a bit weird but I didn't want to try and put in the effort to edit it to make it look like it actually will without the ring. If you look at what Seiko has been doing lately, they seem to think that there's plenty of ore left in the black watch mine. Pro-hunter style mods also remain massively popular in the modding community. You don't however see them rushing to make bronze turtles or samurais.
> 
> View attachment 14344715


Now that looks impressive. Lose that cyclops eyesore and I'd be interested. Love the contrast between the vivid green and black. Nice.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Mr_Finer_Things said:


> Any chance a year has changed this at all.....a bronze bezel stainless case NTH sub would be wicked cool.


Add a nice sunburst blue dial and I would be in 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> ...To me, they're like two alternate ways to get to the same end-point. Both vintage-ish divers, neither overtly unique nor over-the-top homagey.
> 
> What differentiates them is how toolish they are. I think the Odin is more military-toolish than the Skipjack, which to me feels a bit more casual. Not in the casual vs dressy sense, but in the less rigid, "maybe I'll keep an eye on my bottom-time, maybe I won't bother" sense. The Skipjack is a little more relaxed.
> 
> ...


6 week bump...

With both of these coming back in stock, I'm going back and forth - Odin v. Skipjack. I mean, really, how does one make this decision?

I like the bezel and contrasting lume of the Odin, I like the dial markers a bit more on the Skipjack, I think I prefer the "regular" NTH logo on the Odin, and I think I like the hands more on the Skipjack. But a lot of these preferences are so minor.

Darn it! 

Edit: N/m, I've got it sorted. |>


----------



## elementainium8 (Aug 20, 2015)

Don’t think any have asked this, and I hope I don’t get ripped for asking it myself...

The new Subs with the 6 o’clock date position have a nice dial balance. What’s the possibility of seeing a Nazario with a date option? (I’m imagining a Ghost with a white on black date wheel.) But maybe that design option stinks...as that’s another Arabic numeral in the lower half to deal with?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

elementainium8 said:


> Don't think any have asked this, and I hope I don't get ripped for asking it myself...
> 
> The new Subs with the 6 o'clock date position have a nice dial balance. What's the possibility of seeing a Nazario with a date option? (I'm imagining a Ghost with a white on black date wheel.) But maybe that design option stinks...as that's another Arabic numeral in the lower half to deal with?


I've asked John if he wanted to do a with-date version. He hasn't wanted to. We'd have to make twice as many, at least twice as many dials, 50 of each. Hard enough to sell just 50 pieces of one version, much less 100 pieces (50 with date/50 no date).

We could assemble 25 each, but then the other 50 dials just sit on a shelf indefinitely, and we end up with lopsided inventory, when more guys want one or the other version.

When we sell 50 pieces in a month, and people are screaming for more, I'll twist his arm into making 100 on the next batch.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Twehttam said:


> 6 week bump...
> 
> With both of these coming back in stock, I'm going back and forth - Odin v. Skipjack. I mean, really, how does one make this decision?
> 
> ...


Why, the correct answer is both. Or, well, three.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Tanjecterly said:


> Why, the correct answer is both. Or, well, three.


Wow. Both Odins. That shows some real commitment. Now share a picture of your two no-dates and you win most crazed Odin fan distinction.

Joking aside, very useful comparison shot. Thanks.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

3WR said:


> Joking aside, very useful comparison shot. Thanks.


I forgot to say this but, yes, definitely. Great side-by-side-by-side!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> ...
> 
> Odin v. Skipjack. I mean, really, how does one make this decision?
> ...
> ...


Verdict is in?


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

3WR said:


> Verdict is in?


Going with the All-Father. While Chris named it after the sub-class, and rightfully so, I'm going with Norse mythology for mine. Just seems fitting as a tribute to Earl.

Love the Skipjack and it was a toughie... maybe I'll grow up to be Tanjecterly one day and get them both. |>


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Going with the All-Father. While Chris named it after the sub-class, and rightfully so, I'm going with Norse mythology for mine. Just seems fitting as a tribute to Earl.
> 
> Love the Skipjack and it was a toughie... maybe I'll grow up to be Tanjecterly one day and get them both. |>


I thought I was good with just the Carolina as my nth sub until the Odin it just scratches the 2254 itch and is awesome as the NTH 'Ray Donovan' good choice.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Red PeeKay said:


> Now that looks impressive. Lose that cyclops eyesore and I'd be interested. Love the contrast between the vivid green and black. Nice.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Thanks! The cyclops is because I just photoshopped the jade monster dial directly over an SKX to get a basic idea of how it will look. My mod will be using a double dome sapphire with no cyclops, I hate them too. I'm also using Transocean hour and minute hands in place of the stock monster hand, and the black second hand with gold tip from the black/gold baby Tuna.

For anyone curious, this is what the monster dial into SKX case mod looks like in the flesh.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_1823.jpg


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Blue Monday.......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Interesting (IMO) discussion of one economist's explanation of the "Rolex Shortage": https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4999615&share_fid=13788&share_type=t

I'm not sure I really understand all the claims or conclusions, so I can't say if I agree or disagree, but found the parts I think I understood interesting enough, and timely, given the claim that Halios and NTH are rationing supply, as well as the offline discussions I've had with some folks, about what seems to be troubling other brands.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Isn't the bottom line of all this (for all other non-rolex brands incl. microbrands) basically "the bottom is about to fall out of the world economy _/thanks UK  /_ so anyone making luxury goods should hunker down and expect fewer sales - so don't ramp up anything"?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

What I found interesting about the Rolex article was the idea of "rent" -- the difference between manufacturer enforced MSRP which a retailer is bound to sell at, and the actual market price. Especially the bit where the author speculates Rolex builds in rent even if they are producing to demand, just that the scarcity -- for whatever reason -- has inflated _the margin_ of rent.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Isn't the bottom line of all this (for all other non-rolex brands incl. microbrands) basically "the bottom is about to fall out of the world economy _/thanks UK  /_ so anyone making luxury goods should hunker down and expect fewer sales - so don't ramp up anything"?


I didn't read all that into the article itself, nor have I read that into the news headlines recently. I don't have any feelings about our short-term global economic prospects, one way or the other, and don't like to make predictions about such things, unless I feel it's necessary for my own business.

But, regardless of what someone might think about the short-term economic outlook, overproduction (too much supply/not enough demand) tends to be a bigger problem than the opposite. So if, let's just say, a business like mine was having a hard time keeping up with demand, it might be wise to avoid leveraging the business in order to rapidly increase production (supply), on the bet that demand will stay the same or continue to increase.

We have a 4-6 month production cycle, and the design-to-delivery cycle is about a year, total, so it's difficult to accurately match supply to demand that far in advance, for any company, of any size. That's the gist of my reply to the OP in that thread (the blog post's author). What's happening with Rolex (and Halios, and NTH) is more likely the organic result of the inherent challenges in running a business like this, than it is the result of some grand and complex scheme by the people who run these businesses.



mconlonx said:


> What I found interesting about the Rolex article was the idea of "rent" -- the difference between manufacturer enforced MSRP which a retailer is bound to sell at, and the actual market price. Especially the bit where the author speculates Rolex builds in rent even if they are producing to demand, just that the scarcity -- for whatever reason -- has inflated _the margin_ of rent.


I think the author is giving Rolex too much credit for planning everything in order to achieve the results we're seeing. Sometimes the results we get are despite our plans, not because of them. It's easier to come up with complex theories after the fact than it is to concoct and implement the corresponding plans before the fact.

Economics is, IMO, an overly rational science. It is grounded in the assumption that everyone acts rationally, always, but we know that isn't true. It's better at explaining large effects in the macro than it is at explaining short-term occurrences and individual decisions in the micro. I tend to prefer game theory and behavioral finance when it comes to explaining why people do things in specific situations.

Rather than retyping my responses to the OP in that thread, I'll simply paraphrase, and let you all read the full text in that thread, if you like.

I think what's happening with Rolex (and Halios, and NTH) is just the organic result of a confluence of factors, not all of them intentional or foreseeable. We have to make production decisions (supply decisions) months in advance of making delivery, and it's difficult to perfectly match supply to demand with such a long production cycle.

Add in complicating factors like production capacity, financial risks, and other business concerns, you sometimes see temporary shortages, which can lead people to think there's some hidden agenda at play, especially when there's "profiteering" happening in the secondary market.

People thought Jason from Halios was deliberately manipulating supply for some inexplicable reason. I've been accused of the same. So has Rolex. I know I'm not deliberately messing up the supply-vs-demand numbers, and I'm pretty sure neither Jason nor Rolex is either.

A year ago, we couldn't keep the Nacken Modern Blue no-date in stock. We gradually ramped up production, little-by-little, until we reached the point that supply is meeting, if not exceeding demand. Now it's the same situation with the Barracuda Vintage Black. It takes time for a watch company to dial in the numbers. It's a process, like having a baby. It takes one woman nine months. You can't put nine women in a room and get a baby in one month.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

36 makes the wildflowers bloom.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

mplsabdullah said:


> .


Now I really like this, however waiting for the larger models to be released. What would really ring my bell is something like Peter Helson released a number of years back that I really liked. Unfortunately it was only a one off. Despite what the photo shows its actually a bright orange dial. I really like the way the skeleton type hands are lot up by the full dial lume.

Now if you did something in this vein in an XL Doc... take my money!









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

hwa, I don't know what watch that is, but it is really sharp. That's the one you modded, right?

Nice.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Toonces said:


> hwa, I don't know what watch that is, but it is really sharp. That's the one you modded, right?
> 
> Nice.


That's the Oberon inside the Smiths case. Did it as a goof, but I like them both better! Its twin is here:









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

That feeling when you get the FedEx email from WatchGauge.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Okay, enough with the "other" watch and wish Doc "would do" photos. Let's pull this thread back on track... doin some cruisin with the Cruz way up north and escaping the Oz winter for a short spell in the northern summer.









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Back in its habitat


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Back on stock bracelet. Liked the shark mesh well enough, and might bust it out for occasional use, but the bracelet works better with the watch. Duh.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Man... just got the Scorpene and already have another NTH piece headed my way. Direct from NTH, this time...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NTH DevilRay LE.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Twehttam said:


> Going with the All-Father. While Chris named it after the sub-class, and rightfully so, I'm going with Norse mythology for mine. Just seems fitting as a tribute to Earl.
> 
> Love the Skipjack and it was a toughie... maybe I'll grow up to be Tanjecterly one day and get them both. |>





basso4735 said:


> That feeling when you get the FedEx email from WatchGauge.





mconlonx said:


> Man... just got the Scorpene and already have another NTH piece headed my way. Direct from NTH, this time...











Yeah, baby.

Stroopwafel!


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> I didn't read all that into the article itself, nor have I read that into the news headlines recently. I don't have any feelings about our short-term global economic prospects, one way or the other, and don't like to make predictions about such things, unless I feel it's necessary for my own business.
> 
> But, regardless of what someone might think about the short-term economic outlook, overproduction (too much supply/not enough demand) tends to be a bigger problem than the opposite. So if, let's just say, a business like mine was having a hard time keeping up with demand, it might be wise to avoid leveraging the business in order to rapidly increase production (supply), on the bet that demand will stay the same or continue to increase.
> 
> ...


I just typed out a response in the other thread and then read your comment here, and it basically said the same thing.

Combination of both, but I'd agree that people are giving Rolex too much credit for being the "wizard of Oz" behind the curtain.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Like father, like son. Our ten year old asked if I had a watch he could wear to church on Sunday. Oberon paired with the parachute strap from eBay was just the ticket.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Two things about ordering from NTH direct:
- all the updates. Order placed, shipped, in transit... all this via email, and just to make sure I get the message, also a text.
- anyone who says they didn't see notices about inspecting for potential issues immediately upon receipt are either illiterate or pretending to be...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> NTH DevilRay LE.


I want to thank all the people who didn't point out the screw was about to come out of my bracelet.

I saw it when I was washing my hands at the DMV.

Good news - my son passed his permit test.

Third time's the charm.

Might want to stay off the roads if you're in suburban Philly. The next few months could be a dangerous situation out there.



mconlonx said:


> Two things about ordering from NTH direct:
> - all the updates. Order placed, shipped, in transit... all this via email, and just to make sure I get the message, also a text.
> - anyone who says they didn't see notices about inspecting for potential issues immediately upon receipt are either illiterate or pretending to be...


Yes.

1. It's in the website FAQ's.

2. It's on the plastic card that comes with the watch.

3. It's on the packing slip our warehouse includes in the package.

4. It's in the email our warehouse sends out with tracking info, when your order ships.

5. It's in the 3 emails our website sends out, with tracking info, when your order ships, is out for delivery, and marked delivered.

6. It's in the 3 emails and 2 text messages the real-time delivery updates app sends out, when your order is shipped, out for delivery, and delivered.

That's 1 website, 2 physical/printed notices, 2 text messages, and 6 different emails - 11 separate attempts we make, asking customers to make sure they actually look at what they get, and to bring any complaints to our immediate attention, before altering its condition.

Someone might get the impression we're serious about that returns policy.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Oh...and another thing...

We're making more BOR bracelets for the Subs. They should be ready sometime in October(ish).

We're making a lot more than we did last time, more than enough to let our retailers buy some for resale. They're not going to sell out in hours, like last time.

So...if you want a BOR, do yourself and me a favor - let your closest NTH retailer know, between now and October, so they know there's interest in them. I'm not going to ship one bracelet to any of them, so they need to know that there's enough demand to justify ordering 5-10 pieces.

And, while I'm at it...

If it wasn't already obvious, we're selling most of our watches through retailers now, not through the NTH website. Generally, they're able to offer a better customer experience than I can (ask anyone who's tasted Stroopwafel), which is great for them, you, and me. 

Keil does phone support. Kaj has a whole team of people on staff. Page & Cooper, Watch Wonderland, 545, and the Watchdrobe all have physical boutiques where customers can see the watches before they buy. Anyone who wants to can schedule a time to meet Keil at WatchGauge, or visit Serious Watches. I think some of the others may do that, too. 

I want people to enjoy the customer experience. There's nothing fancy happening when you buy a watch from us. You get the watch you ordered, in a cardboard box. No Stroopwafel from my warehouse guys, sorry. I don't do phone support. You're not coming to my home office. You give me money, I give you watch. That's just how I roll.

I want all NTH fans and customers to understand that you're not "hurting" me if you buy from a retailer, rather than direct. You're getting the same product, plus probably a little extra, for the same price, maybe with free shipping, and you're not paying any more for it. This is win-win, for everyone.

And, while we may see TEMPORARY shortages on SOME models, OCCASIONALLY, I hope everyone understands that there's no need to contact multiple retailers to get on multiple waiting lists. Just buy from whichever one is closest to you, or whichever one you like best, for whatever reason. 

If there's a problem after the sale, and it makes more sense to send the watch back to Dan, because we're closer than the store where you bought it, no problem, we're still here to support customers, no matter where you bought the watch.

If a model gets "hot", like the Barracuda, we'll know it, and we'll make more. We just delivered another batch of those, and they're not already sold out, unlike the last batch, which were sold out before we even got them. If you were upset about not getting one from the first two batches we made, BOOM, now there's more. I got you.

I don't want anyone to feel anxiety about not being able to get what they want. I don't think that enhances the customer experience in any way, at least not for most people. We're doing our best to match supply to demand, but it's a challenge to do that with a months-long production cycle. So we need everyone to understand, and be patient with us as we adapt to the changing landscape, and do our best to make all our customers happy.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

5k miles for Stroopwafel... so worth it. Seriously, though, I can't say enough how awesome Serious is. They have bent over backward for me on multiple occasions and provide amazing customer service. They've earned every bit of praise I give them.

Ps, who put together this video, Chris? THIS is what sold me on my Holland.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> 5k miles for Stroopwafel... so worth it. Seriously, though, I can't say enough how awesome Serious is. They have bent over backward for me on multiple occasions and provide amazing customer service. They've earned every bit of praise I give them.
> 
> Ps, who put together this video, Chris? THIS is what sold me on my Holland.


1. I don't bend over backwards, unless it's a limbo contest, and there better be some sort of age/weight class divisions, and a big prize for the winner, or don't bother bringing me the sign-up sheet.

2. That video was all SW.


----------



## Nikita70 (Sep 16, 2016)

Definitely getting the BOR bracelet this time!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That was a pretty cool video.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> We're making more BOR bracelets for the Subs. They should be ready sometime in October(ish).
> 
> ...


Good on ya. Definitely more pleasant to have confidence that there will be availability even if not immediately or at all times.

Was thinking about this in the past and realized the models to worry about are the ones that ARE readily available. A new model that lingers probably won't be made again soon. So once they sell out, that may be it. And if there was only one batch ever, it might take a while for a good used one to pop up for sale.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

With all the resellers covering all major areas of the world, why even bother still accepting orders through the nth website? better to keep it up not as a store, but as a digital brand showroom and model info-repository, with easy-to-click links to all the resellers for those who stumble and want to purchase asap.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_7091.jpg


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Bead of rice bracelet?! Im in.

Can we use our points on these? Asking for a friend. Some guy. In Phili. What? You writing a book?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Good on ya. Definitely more pleasant to have confidence that there will be availability even if not immediately or at all times.
> 
> Was thinking about this in the past and realized the models to worry about are the ones that ARE readily available. A new model that lingers probably won't be made again soon. So once they sell out, that may be it. And if there was only one batch ever, it might take a while for a good used one to pop up for sale.


True.



X2-Elijah said:


> With all the resellers covering all major areas of the world, why even bother still accepting orders through the nth website? better to keep it up not as a store, but as a digital brand showroom and model info-repository, with easy-to-click links to all the resellers for those who stumble and want to purchase asap.


Why not, if I still have SOME inventory for sale?



Rhorya said:


> Bead of rice bracelet?! Im in.
> 
> Can we use our points on these? Asking for a friend. Some guy. In Phili. What? You writing a book?


Sure.


----------



## jzoo (Jul 13, 2015)

Hanging out, waiting for my car's oil change.


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

What is the price going to be like for the BOR? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ewhulbert said:


> What is the price going to be like for the BOR?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It gonna be like a dollar sign, then a number.

$150.

It's still showing on the website, just in case anyone wants to look at it. And there should be a "notify me when available" button on the page, which enables peeps to set up an alert when we add inventory.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jzoo said:


> View attachment 14354665
> 
> 
> Hanging out, waiting for my car's oil change.


Bezel alignment off by 50%...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

docvail said:


> It gonna be like a dollar sign, then a number.
> 
> $150.
> 
> ...


It's like you actually *know* what you're doing and you've preplanned for every contingency except for the human condition, and even then, you do double or triple redundancies so that you're covered from your end.


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

docvail said:


> It gonna be like a dollar sign, then a number.
> 
> $150.
> 
> ...


Yep, I had that coming.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Devilray vs Avalon









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Devilray vs Avalon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did NOT see the Avalon as being that big!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> With all the resellers covering all major areas of the world, why even bother still accepting orders through the nth website? better to keep it up not as a store, but as a digital brand showroom and model info-repository, with easy-to-click links to all the resellers for those who stumble and want to purchase asap.


Sorry, I wasn't trying to be flip with my previous answer.

I have thought about this (I know, shocking)...

There are multiple sides to it.

On the one hand, we're dealing with the phenomenon of someone going to the NTH site, seeing that it's "sold out" of a model, and then leaving, or, complaining that we're sold out, or asking why we're sold out, when in fact, the model hasn't even been released and put up for sale yet, or it's still quite available, at any/all of our retailers, just not our site.

How do you fix that?

We've made several attempts. There's a "coming soon" section for models that are coming soon (duh), but it seems that some guys find their way directly to the product page, either by way of an Instagram post where we tagged the product, or by Googling it. Either way, they skipped past the home page, and thus never saw that the product is "coming soon".

On that page itself, we've implemented a "coming soon" app, which replaces the "add to cart" button with a "Coming Soon" button that does nothing, but also has target delivery date text under it. The app also adds a "Coming Soon" badge to the product (but only on the category page, not the product page itself). That hasn't stopped people from asking why something we haven't started selling yet is already sold out.

On the other hand, if it is in fact a model that is sold out on our site, but still available from our retailers, we've had some custom-code built into the site, which replaces the add-to-cart button with a "Check Retailers" button, which redirects to the list of retailers on our website. But, still, we get guys who apparently don't grasp the core concept that we have retailers, who might have their own websites, where you have to go to actually see if maybe they have the watch you desperately want.

Additionally, we've got a pop-up on the site, which detects your geo-location, and tells you, hey, buddy, we've got retailers, would you like to go to the nearest one's site? We've got that app set up to redirect to specific sites if we have a retailer in that person's region, or just to the retailer's list on our site.

But, still, yada, yada, yada, guys ask when we're going to have more in stock. We spend a lot of my time telling people on the internet where to find stuff on the internet.

With some releases, the retailers buy up 90%-100% of what we've got coming, and we won't have ANY inventory available, at all, so, I've thought about just converting the site from one where you buy things, to one where you don't, like the Rolex site - here's a bunch of stuff you can buy, but not here. You need to get up off your duff, and go to the retailer's store (or website), and get it there.

Why haven't we done that? Well, that's the other side to this...

They don't ALWAYS buy 95%-100% of what we make. Sometimes, it's 2/3, or whatever. It's occurred to me that I could just "hide" the inventory by turning sales on the NTH website off, but I don't really want to, for several reasons...

1. Some guys like to buy from the NTH site. Maybe they like me better than the retailers. Maybe they're using loyalty rewards points, or whatever.

2. We're doing a lot to drive traffic to our site. We're also doing a lot to redirect that traffic to our retailers' sites, but, clearly, not all of the traffic gets redirected, so, it makes sense to keep the sales function alive, if we have inventory.

3. If I were to turn that function off, even if we have some inventory the retailers didn't take, it may set a bad precedent. Follow my logic here...

I get a bunch of watches in. 300 pieces, whatever. The retailers take 95%-100%. If I tell them I've got 5% left, it'll be gone, instantly, because they'll all be worried that the other retailers will take what they need before they do.

Let's say instead that the retailers take 200, and I put 100 into my inventory, but it's hidden, where no one can buy it from me, only the retailers. What sort of pressure do the retailers feel to come and reload, when they know I've got 100 pieces left, and I'm not selling direct through my own site?

As opposed to - I put the 100 up for sale on my site. Maybe some of them come and reload sooner rather than later, maybe not, but either way, soon enough, we sell out. When the retailers come back to reload, it's gone. What do you think happens with the next release? How much pressure do they feel to buy more than they did with the previous release, because if they don't buy it all, there won't be any when they want to reload?

Brands that only sell through retailers don't have any good options if the retailers don't buy everything they produce. That's why there's a gray market.

Every business needs cash flow. No business can be profitable sitting on inventory for too long. One way or the other, we'll move the inventory, and the more the retailers see that it moves, the more they'll want, and the less I'll have available on the NTH site. It's a process. It takes time. Eventually, they should be taking 100% of every release. But, even then, I'm not going to paint myself into a corner, where I'm dependent on them not to fail.

Having the ability and willingness to sell direct keeps them honest.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



CMFord said:


> I did NOT see the Avalon as being that big!


That can't be right. I've seen them. They didn't look that big. Seems like a mobile camera fish-eye effect happening.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

Insert that’s what she said joke here 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lps72pp (Jan 30, 2017)

CMFord said:


> I did NOT see the Avalon as being that big!


It's not. It's the silver bezel vs. black bezel effect plus the fact the bezel is bigger on the Avalon. I have two Avalon's and quite a few other pieces. The Avalon actually fits my 7 inch wrist better than most.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Special delivery!









Exactly what I wanted, Chris. Thank you!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Special delivery!
> 
> View attachment 14356401
> 
> ...


Looks awesome Matt!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> Special delivery!
> 
> Exactly what I wanted, Chris. Thank you!


Those are some nice manners. Just checking, you did have to send 600 some odd dollars first, right? ;-)


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

3WR said:


> Those are some nice manners. Just checking, you did have to send 600 some odd dollars first, right? ;-)


Haha, yes, I've paid for them all. No stroopwafel this time, but I *did* get the lume torch. So fun! And, thumbs up to uvalaw, as that contrasting lume shot he posted may have pushed me over the edge. Love it.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Di-Modell makes Bahia a bit of a bad a$$, no?

I imagine it would pair well with an old lumpy cam muscle car. Or an early 911.


----------



## groooooove (Mar 16, 2018)

i've been loving my odin blue/date for a while now.

Since buying that one (new) NY added sales tax to online sales, plus the price went up on the NTH subs. adds a lot to the total cost, which means my next has to be used.

been waiting what feels like forever for a nacken, modern black, with date at 6 o'clock. I've seen no-dates, i've seen the 4:30 dates, but never the exact one I really feel would compliment my collection.

oh well. I hope to find one soon and post a wrist shot here one of these days. In the meantime, the odin is a really pleasurable watch to own. I purposely take it off and wear something else (i own 4-5 others that are in regular rotation) every few days just so when I pick the odin up for the first time in a few days it feels that much better. it's a really, really beautiful watch.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

groooooove said:


> i've been loving my odin blue/date for a while now.
> 
> Since buying that one (new) NY added sales tax to online sales, plus the price went up on the NTH subs. adds a lot to the total cost, which means my next has to be used.
> 
> ...


Can't you buy from sites outside the state?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Brought the dolphin, nacken and scorpene to my beach holiday.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Twehttam said:


> Special delivery!
> 
> View attachment 14356401
> 
> ...


Wow... Doc now delivering pizzas... that's awesome. Nice watch by the way..

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

groooooove said:


> i've been loving my odin blue/date for a while now.
> 
> Since buying that one (new) NY added sales tax to online sales, plus the price went up on the NTH subs. adds a lot to the total cost, which means my next has to be used.
> 
> ...





kpjimmy said:


> Can't you buy from sites outside the state?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


^This.

If you're in NY, I assume you're looking at buying from Watch Gauge, which is also in NY.

I'm in PA, and only charge tax when we ship to PA, so, if you want the Nacken Modern Black with date at 6, we've got some in stock now, and won't charge tax.

Glad you like the Odin.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ewhulbert said:


> Yep, I had that coming.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're not the first guy to ask me a question the website would have answered. I had to hire a virtual assistant to help me respond to all the guys doing that. I ain't mad atcha.


----------



## groooooove (Mar 16, 2018)

kpjimmy said:


> Can't you buy from sites outside the state?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


that's a good question. I think i tried once but it was still what i deemed at the time "too much money."

Compared to my other wishlist items, such as Lorier watches, it's hard to justify another NTH at new prices when there are so many beauties for less money.

not hating, i understand it's supply/demand and they do sell out. i'm just gonna hang tight till i see what i want on the used market.


----------



## hairy (Dec 16, 2011)

docvail said:


> Sorry, I wasn't trying to be flip with my previous answer.
> 
> I have thought about this (I know, shocking)...
> 
> ...


All that work and half of us with uMatrix never see it, unless its a first party script


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

groooooove said:


> that's a good question. I think i tried once but it was still what i deemed at the time "too much money."
> 
> Compared to my other wishlist items, such as Lorier watches, it's hard to justify another NTH at new prices when there are so many beauties for less money.
> 
> not hating, i understand it's supply/demand and they do sell out. i'm just gonna hang tight till i see what i want on the used market.


Lorier makes a nice watch, too.

And, if you're patient, surely someone will put the watch you want up for sale on the secondary market. I recommend setting up an alert on Watch Recon.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hairy said:


> All that work and half of us with uMatrix never see it, unless its a first party script


I don't know, maybe. If you go to my site, and you don't see any pop-up asking if you want to redirect to our retailers, then your plug-ins are blocking it. But, it's not an ad, it's an app built into the site, so hopefully it still shows.

At the end of the day, we can't do all the heavy lifting. Our retailers need to do their part to make people aware they carry NTH watches, and people who want the watches may need to take a few seconds more to click through to a retailer's website.

Almost all of our email blasts have links to our retailers' websites. We frequently link to their sites in our IG posts, and in my FB posts. We still get people asking about "sold out" models, but that's why I have a virtual assistant and someone handling my marketing. One of us is going to respond, if and when someone asks. We're just doing what we can to help people find what they want, from the nearest source who has it.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Interesting (IMO) discussion of one economist's explanation of the "Rolex Shortage": https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=4999615&share_fid=13788&share_type=t
> 
> I'm not sure I really understand all the claims or conclusions, so I can't say if I agree or disagree, but found the parts I think I understood interesting enough, and timely, given the claim that Halios and NTH are rationing supply, as well as the offline discussions I've had with some folks, about what seems to be troubling other brands.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I think I tracked with that piece and what I took away from it makes sense to me.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> I think the author is giving Rolex too much credit for planning everything in order to achieve the results we're seeing. Sometimes the results we get are despite our plans, not because of them. It's easier to come up with complex theories after the fact than it is to concoct and implement the corresponding plans before the fact.


True. But it's also likely that at some point Rolex began consciously reacting to this situation and incorporating it into their plans.

It's worthwhile to consider how Tudor fits into all of this.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> True. But it's also likely that at some point Rolex began consciously reacting to this situation and incorporating it into their plans.
> 
> It's worthwhile to consider how Tudor fits into all of this.


Occam's razor.

Don't use fancy explanations when a simple one will do.

If Rolex is creating a feeding frenzy on one set of models, why not do it for ALL sets?

Why on Earth would Tudor make fewer than the ideal number of BB58's, but also make more than the ideal number of so many other models?

I honestly don't understand why anyone would believe Rolex concocted an overly complex and difficult to implement scheme to create artificial shortages of just a few models, then also decided not to capitalize on the situation they created by maximizing the potential value.

Trust me. Rolex didn't intentionally create a shortage. At most, they decided how many pieces to make of each model, and perhaps decided they were willing to accept that some of those numbers might be less than ready demand. That's not the same thing as deliberately creating a shortage.

But, what do I know? I'm just a guy who runs a business making and selling watches, who tries to look at things logically.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Devilray vs Avalon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll play ....









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

That's wild. The Avalon does look larger.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Parking garage shot.









Yummy.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Mil6161 said:


> DuckaDiesel said:
> 
> 
> > Devilray vs Avalon
> ...


And here's mine


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > True. But it's also likely that at some point Rolex began consciously reacting to this situation and incorporating it into their plans.
> ...


I agree with you that Rolex didn't probably create this situation (and the article's suggestion that the lack of supply has more to do with Swiss culture and economics makes a bit of sense to me), but I don't think it's crazy to believe that Rolex--like everyone else--saw demand go nuts and try a few maneuvers to match. (There's been a recent set of murmurs that Rolex might actually raise retail prices for some models.)

Rolex isn't a brand known for master strategy. It plays cautiously (hence the rather unambitious variants of the same few designs) and when they take risks it often doesn't pay off for them. So I'm not talking about big moves here, but I don't think they're so asleep at the wheel that they're completely ignoring the market situation, either.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Feeling blue today. Not a bad thing in this case.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Black Odin on a long weekend at the lake.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> I agree with you that Rolex didn't probably create this situation (and the article's suggestion that the lack of supply has more to do with Swiss culture and economics makes a bit of sense to me), but I don't think it's crazy to believe that Rolex--like everyone else--saw demand go nuts and try a few maneuvers to match. (There's been a recent set of murmurs that Rolex might actually raise retail prices for some models.)
> 
> Rolex isn't a brand known for master strategy. It plays cautiously (hence the rather unambitious variants of the same few designs) and when they take risks it often doesn't pay off for them. So I'm not talking about big moves here, but I don't think they're so asleep at the wheel that they're completely ignoring the market situation, either.


"Recent murmurs" - well, there's a reason to discard all logic and the voice of experience...

My takeaway from the economist's post, and much of the subsequent discussion of it, was the theory that Rolex planned it all, because complex reasons and huge leaps of logic, with no obvious benefit to Rolex.

Which, as I said there, and here, and am getting tired of saying, makes no sense, at least not to me, but I'm just a logical guy who feels like he has a halfway decent understanding of how this business works.

There's no perfect matching of supply and demand when you make an expensive-to-produce product with a long lead time (i.e, watches). There's always an imbalance, one way or the other.

One day, you have too many. The day after you sell out, there weren't enough produced. That's just how this $hlt works.

Ascribing complex schemes and motivations to companies as a way to explain what happens every day, normally, and then defending all the wild assumptions which went into them, contrary to all reason, just seems like asking for an argument for its own sake.

If they were going to do something to benefit their company, it makes no sense not to actually reap the rewards when the opportunity is there (say, by raising prices on inventory before it sells out), rather than delay action (by raising prices in the future). It makes no sense that they'd only do it for their least expensive models, not their most expensive (and highest-revenue-producing) models.

The lack of supply has nothing to do with Swiss culture or laws. The Swiss have been over-producing by the metric $hlt-ton for decades.

Rolex is run by smart people (I think, maybe, I dunno). But they're not psychic, and not part of some global, secret cabal with the power to manipulate the international economy. They made a bunch of watches, some sold out more quickly than people would ordinarily expect, and the perceived "shortage" created a speculative bubble.

Read up on the 17th century Tulip mania, or the housing bubble of the mid-2000's. Prices go up because of supply and demand, but then they keep going up just because people believe there's a "shortage", and that they'll keep going up, with no understanding of actual demand. It's the bigger fool theory at work. Eventually, prices come down, for the same reason they went up in the first place - supply and demand.

Rolex isn't going to lower its prices, but the secondary market will eventually stabilize, and we might see a correction, if for no other reason than Rolex will add more supply, eventually.

This isn't alchemy. Inventory imbalances happen all the time, for companies large and small. The reasons why are not hard to understand, and in fact, I've done my best to explain them, repeatedly, in as simple and straightforward a way as I can, using no assumptions, guesses, or logical leaps whatsoever. I've used my own firsthand experience and observation of similar businesses as examples.

We make stuff. We have to guess about how much we should make. There's no right answer, ever. We'll have way too much until the day we sell out, and then we won't have enough. End o' story.

But, nope, people want to believe tin-foil hat conspiracy theories about complex, impossible to implement schemes with unclear benefits for the schemers.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Parking garage shot.
> 
> View attachment 14357663
> 
> ...


I call BS.

That's not a pic of a parking garage.

It's a pic of a watch.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Tanjecterly said:


> Black Odin on a long weekend at the lake.


Does Black Odin not just look OK with date, but actually look better with it?

Clever idea to make the 6 o'clock marker small so adding date doesn't eat up a prominent marker. (I think I read that) But maybe knowing it is small to leave room for a date, when there is no date, my brain tells me there is something missing. Or not. Whatever. Great photo.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

3WR said:


> Does Black Odin not just look OK with date, but actually look better with it?
> 
> Clever idea to make the 6 o'clock marker small so adding date doesn't eat up a prominent marker. (I think I read that) But maybe knowing it is small to leave room for a date, when there is no date, my brain tells me there is something missing. Or not. Whatever. Great photo.


I prefer no-dates, but my Odin has a date ftw (balances the big triangle)










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Also good in this case









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I always prefer ND, but they both look smashing. |>|>


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> That's wild. The Avalon does look larger.


Ya I had both (still have the DR).

The DR is chunky but the Avalon looked too big on my 6.5, whereas I think the DR works.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Woot!









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Whaaaaat???.........

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lew-Huey...801223?hash=item3fc824e6c7:g:LR0AAOSwG-FdNqP~

Cheers,

Alan


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Ragl said:


> Whaaaaat???.........
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lew-Huey...801223?hash=item3fc824e6c7:g:LR0AAOSwG-FdNqP~
> 
> ...


Heh. I hope it sells.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Sooo glad that the weekend has finally arrived, hope that you all have a good one too people......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> Woot!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[expletive deleted] glorious!

Congrats 

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

kerplunk..


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Heh. I hope it sells.


So do I, it puts a whole new hyper-inflated value on a large part of my collection; now where are those C300 pair of mine.........


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Whaaaaat???.........
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lew-Huey...801223?hash=item3fc824e6c7:g:LR0AAOSwG-FdNqP~
> 
> ...


FREE SHIPPING!!!

Still though? $1k, for a used Orthos?

I hope he gets it, too. I may have to put my entire collection up on the 'bay.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

That ebay listing is actually really informative about things that docvail hasn't told us so far.

For instance, turns out the Orthoses were made by a japanese factory, not china as suspected before. AND it's actually an adult-only wristwatch (I guess there must be some hardcore erotica inside the case). The case, by the way, is a special blend of orange steel...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> That ebay listing is actually really informative about things that docvail hasn't told us so far.
> 
> For instance, turns out the Orthoses were made by a japanese factory, not china as suspected before. AND it's actually an adult-only wristwatch (I guess there must be some hardcore erotica inside the case). The case, by the way, is a special blend of orange steel...
> 
> View attachment 14359773


It's the orange mixed into the steel which gives it that nice citrusy aroma.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

kpjimmy said:


> Woot!


Woah, that looks gooooooood. Congrats!


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Ragl said:


> Whaaaaat???.........
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lew-Huey...801223?hash=item3fc824e6c7:g:LR0AAOSwG-FdNqP~
> 
> ...


I ran across this one a few days ago before pulling the trigger on my Odin as I was looking for a nice Earl-tribute and thought a L&H with the barking dog logo might be cool... but, wow, that price. It'd be cool to see it ring up for that, though.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Odin with a new pair of shoes.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Twehttam said:


> I ran across this one a few days ago before pulling the trigger on my Odin as I was looking for a nice Earl-tribute and thought a L&H with the barking dog logo might be cool... but, wow, that price. It'd be cool to see it ring up for that, though.


Sparky always makes me think of Keith Haring.







And L&H is what a collaboration between Keith and Gerald Genta might have looked like.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

illumidata said:


> Sparky always makes me think of Keith Haring.
> View attachment 14360237
> 
> And L&H is what a collaboration between Keith and Gerald Genta might have looked like.
> View attachment 14360263


Bookmark this one, chris, odds are against a repeat.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

illumidata said:


> View attachment 14360263


We need details on that strap.

What is it?

Where did you get it?

How much was it?

How stiff is it? (That's what she said, boom, nailed it.)


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*









docvail said:


> We need details on that strap.
> 
> What is it?
> 
> ...


It's not stiff at all, except at the lugs where it needs to be - some sort of support built into it to hold the shape, then it gets fully flexible. Also has a lip on the clasp that has a cool ratchet effect as you tighten it. Got an orange one coming for the Orthos.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Talk-Time-Curved-Silicone-Rubber/dp/B01EXOK454


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



illumidata said:


> View attachment 14360371
> 
> 
> It's not stiff at all, except at the lugs where it needs to be - some sort of support built into it to hold the shape, then it gets fully flexible. Also has a lip on the clasp that has a cool ratchet effect as you tighten it. Got an orange one coming for the Orthos.
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Talk-Time-Curved-Silicone-Rubber/dp/B01EXOK454


Grrrrr....


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Grrrrr....
> 
> View attachment 14360561


I can send you one. Just let me know where.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> It's the orange mixed into the steel which gives it that nice citrusy aroma.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


And I thought vanilla scented rubber straps was high end.... citrus scented cases... that is seriously next level!

Doc IS the man!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



illumidata said:


> I can send you one. Just let me know where.


That's a generous offer, thank you, but I should decline. It's not like I really WANT the strap, I'm just curious how good it is for ~$7. I'd like to see how it feels, because that price is ridonculous. But it would cost 3x-4x that just to ship it here.

I'm sure I've gone into this before, but...

It's insanely expensive to do the tooling for a molded-end rubber strap. The only way it makes sense is if you sell a $hlt-ton of straps, or if you just include them with a watch you're making, and wrap the tooling costs for the straps into your production costs for the watch. I don't sell nearly enough straps to rationalize the tooling costs if they're just going to be sold as stand-alone items.

I just saw that someone has now trademarked "Tropic" strap as a brand name, and is selling them for $79, out of Austria. I want someone with one of the tropic straps we shipped with the Antilles/Azores to get one, and compare them.

Someone in a thread discussing them called our straps "plasticky". I actually did some pretty detailed research into various rubber compounds to figure out which one to use for those straps, and I thought they came out really well. I forget how many extra we ordered, but we sold them all, in a reasonably short time. They were very flexible, and had a nice sheen to them.

I had ruled out making more, because, like I said, I just don't sell that many straps, and the supplier I used has a 300-piece MOQ on them. I've seen guys comparing ours to some others' which sell for less than ours did, but you can't compare just from pics online. I can almost guarantee all the ones selling for less use a compound I rejected, in favor of the one we used. The cost difference wasn't very much, and I thought it was worth getting better quality.

I'd love to know what makes these new ones worth $79, aside from them being the "genuine" Tropic(TM) strap. If people start going bananas for them, maybe I'll have to revisit the idea of having more of ours made.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> That's a generous offer, thank you, but I should decline. It's not like I really WANT the strap, I'm just curious how good it is for ~$7. I'd like to see how it feels, because that price is ridonculous. But it would cost 3x-4x that just to ship it here.
> 
> I'm sure I've gone into this before, but...
> 
> ...


Insured, untracked shipping is £2.30. Offer stands, it'll cost me less than the price of a decent double scotch.

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

There's always Everest. Just $235 for one of theirs. I've tried a whole bunch of different cheap silicone straps when I was trying to color match my old Zodiac Sea Wolf. For whatever reason 95% of "dark blue" silicone straps are actually purple. The Archer "Midnight Blue" strap was the only one that actually matched, and was actually blue. They all feel pretty similar on the wrist though, definitely not great, and the keepers love to wander all over the place and generally be annoying. The Barton Elite straps are in a different league from all of the sub $20 stuff I've tried. They feel MUCH softer and MUCH more comfortable, and the keepers stay in place. Their buckles also don't feel like they're going to instantly fall apart. I had that actually happen with one of the straps I tried - I took it out of the pouch and the buckle instantly disintegrated into its component parts.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Ugh.

I hate heat waves.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Who did it better?









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Grrrrr....
> 
> View attachment 14360561


That is how some of us feel when we see item on the Sales Forum who limit to CONUS ONLY


----------



## dt75 (Nov 26, 2017)

hwa said:


> Who did it better?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's the no bezel Näcken called?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

dt75 said:


> What's the no bezel Näcken called?


Andrew's watch...

Seriously, it a mod from @hwa


----------



## dt75 (Nov 26, 2017)

Pretty rad. If doc ever made one, I'd buy one brand new.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Not to put words in Doc's mouth, but it ain't gonna happen.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dt75 said:


> Pretty rad. If doc ever made one, I'd buy one brand new.


Bro, I'd buy an Oberon, too, and maybe a Nazario Sauro and even a Scorp!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

hwa said:


> dt75 said:
> 
> 
> > Pretty rad. If doc ever made one, I'd buy one brand new.
> ...


Fixed bezel makes all these look so much better. My 2 cents.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Cash cow #2! Fixed bezel version of every sub variation so far


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

"i'll take poking the bear for $100, alex"


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Wimads said:


> Cash cow #2! Fixed bezel version of every sub variation so far


Easy, now. Let's not go crazy! That would be damn near 30, probably.

Amphion (modern black, vintage black, vintage blue, commando)

Nacken (vintage blue, modern black, modern blue, vintage white)

Barracuda (blue, brown, vintage black)

Oberon

Santa Fe

Santa Cruz

Nazario (black, sauro, azzurro, ghost)

Renegade

Vantage

Scorpene (black, blue)

Holland

Dolphin (magenta, ice)

Odin (black, blue)

Skipjack

Bahia

Tikuna

Carolina

Catalina

And that excludes all date options!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

More SKU’s!!!


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

And then do the lot in bronze!.....3, 2, 1.... cue Doc implosion

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



illumidata said:


> Insured, untracked shipping is £2.30. Offer stands, it'll cost me less than the price of a decent double scotch.
> 
> Watch Addict In Recovery


Cheers. Thank you, sincerely, for the offer. If I wanted it for my own use, I'd take you up on it, but there's a limit on the lengths/expense I'll go to just to satisfy my own curiosity.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

The Watcher said:


> "i'll take poking the bear for $100, alex"


I'll take Expression of Enthusiasm for, oh, $2600 or so, Alex

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If my business had the production volume to make everything I'd like to make, and everything fans wanted us to make, then we'd make all of it.

It doesn't have the volume, at least not yet, and so I have to be choosy about where we invest our time and energy when it comes to new model development.

I'm not saying I'd never do anything like it. I'm saying it's nowhere in the product development plans at this time.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


>


Congrats! Very thorough collection!

I don't even have 12 watches... (anymore, that is...  )

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

yankeexpress said:


>


The most amazing thing, in case no one else notices, is that they all appear to be running and set to the same time....


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

dmjonez said:


> The most amazing thing, in case no one else notices, is that they all appear to be running and set to the same time....


And who normally has that many plastic watch holders?!? I mean I don't even have one and I have a bunch of watches lol

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Does yankeexpress have the most comprehensive collection of NTH watches? I would think so yes..


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

liquidtension said:


> Does yankeexpress have the most comprehensive collection of NTH watches? I would think so yes..


Even Chris has not kept that many!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

liquidtension said:


> Does yankeexpress have the most comprehensive collection of watches? I would think so yes..


Ftfy...


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> liquidtension said:
> 
> 
> > Does yankeexpress have the most comprehensive collection of watches? I would think so yes..
> ...


ROFL


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

My new NTH (the one on the right...)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> Does yankeexpress have the most comprehensive collection of NTH watches? I would think so yes..


He has more Subs than I do...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Happy Monday!









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## TypeSly (Jan 9, 2018)

Just put my name on the list for the Vanguard Date. Looks a lot like my beloved Orthos black cherry. Now the eye twitching starts...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

True Story...

I had to call someone for tech support. It came up that I own a company that makes watches...

HER: "Really? How exciting. What's your company's name?"

ME: "NTH."

HER: "I know your brand!"

ME: "...uhm...really?"

HER: "Yeah! I bought one for my son."

ME: "Wow. That would be really coincidental."

HER: "Yeah, he loves watches. I kept seeing your ads everywhere, and showed him one. He liked it, so I got him one."

ME: "...uhm...I don't think that was me."

HER: "Are you sure? What was the brand name again? I'll check out your website."

ME: "Pretty sure. NTH. November, Tacos, Hippos, watches, dot com. We've never advertised much, and haven't done any advertising at all in over a year."

HER: "....no, this wasn't it....oh, I remember now - it was MVMT! Do you know them?"

ME: "Uhm...yeah, I know them."


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> True Story...
> 
> I had to call someone for tech support. It came up that I own a company that makes watches...
> 
> ...


ROFL.. OMG... MVMT and NTH.. hmmm..MVTH.. ok maybe he dont really care about the brand and just have a selective memory.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Pat, Can i buy a vowel?


----------



## det55 (Apr 19, 2017)

hwa said:


> Bro, I'd buy an Oberon, too, and maybe a Nazario Sauro and even a Scorp!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would be all over that Oberon!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

det55 said:


> I would be all over that Oberon!


Everything has its price...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> HER: "....no, this wasn't it....oh, I remember now - it was MVMT! Do you know them?"
> 
> ME: "Uhm...yeah, I know them."


Hahaha ouch. It would be hilarious if she went in the completely opposite direction and was like "yeah, he really loves the '64 Omega SM300, but the Sharkmaster and Estoril are a little too on the nose, so I got him an Odin." Ah well. Gotta start somewhere, right? Hopefully he'll eventually see the light.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I guess that just goes to show the difference between a _WUS-Sucessful_ watch brand and a _World-Successful_ watch brand. Sure enough I'd rather own and wear an NTH over an MVMT, but I think the ppl who launched and made MVMT are in a better place, comparatively.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

The "ppl who launched MVMT" - I see what you did there with the whole people thing...

Seriously though, MVMT is a marketing company, not a watch company. They've been very successful and are better off than nearly any micro brand you can find (possibly any of them) but it's like buying local or buying from Wal-Mart. There's talent, passion, and personality or there's focus groups, lowest common denominator design, and lots of marketing.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Every time I see those tools say "join the movement" I have a gag reflex. Not because I know the product is crap. Because it's so obvious that they're targeting the "bros" in their early 20's that are fresh out of college and working a job they hate while desperately trying to hold on to their college lifestyle. Joining the movement is the exact opposite of what they really want, but most of them don't have a wiser co-worker that owns something like an Nth to show them the way. I was one of them many years ago; My watch was a Michael Kors :-(. :-d


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> I guess that just goes to show the difference between a _WUS-Sucessful_ watch brand and a _World-Successful_ watch brand. Sure enough I'd rather own and wear an NTH over an MVMT, but I think the ppl who launched and made MVMT are in a better place, comparatively.


I'm in a better place, sarcastically.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'm in a better place, sardonically .


FTFY

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> November, Tacos, Hippos


Obviously, the whole phonetic alphabet is due for a re-write.

Watermelon, tweezer, facepalm...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Day 2









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Every time I see those tools say "join the movement" I have a gag reflex. Not because I know the product is crap. Because it's so obvious that they're targeting the "bros" in their early 20's that are fresh out of college and working a job they hate while desperately trying to hold on to their college lifestyle. Joining the movement is the exact opposite of what they really want, but most of them don't have a wiser co-worker that owns something like an Nth to show them the way. I was one of them many years ago; My watch was a Michael Kors :-(. :-d


Between 2014 and 2015, there was a very similarly-styled, similar-back-story, and apparently similarly-targeted startup called Yes Man watches, with the dubious slogan, "Be a YES man!"

They got some discussion on this forum, to include the brand founder joining in to defend/explain the brand. While being a "Yes Man" is a distinctively bad thing for guys of a certain generation (mine among them), the young, college student founder said the name was intended to be empowering, to encourage people to say "Yes!" to...I dunno, something, opportunities, extreme whatever.

It appears the company's activity fizzled out in early 2016, and the brand was acquired (?) by "Mens Gear" a year later, in January 2017.

I have mixed feelings about many young startups. On the one hand, I like to encourage entrepreneurialism. Not everyone is cut out for a 9-5 job. I wasn't. I don't think my older son will be. We all have to earn a living. And with the way modern companies run and treat employees, I think starting a business can be an "eff you" move for some people. It was for me.

But, on the other hand, some of the irrational exuberance displayed by the young, inexperienced, wide-eyed founders makes me shiver. In particular, the tendency many seem to have, of touting non-accomplishments and in-progress activities as proof of concept/success really irks me.

I question their commitment when they work from anonymity, putting their brand name out into the world, but obscuring their own name. It makes me wonder if they're not already thinking about their next venture, and don't want the first, failed venture to attach itself to them, like an anchor.

Yes Man's founder auditioned for Shark Tank. So did I. From what I can tell, he didn't make it onto the show. Neither did I. Yes Man's founder got himself some press about it, so he could "tell the story", as if there was something to tell. I never told the story, because it wasn't worth telling...

I heard they were holding a casting call at some school down in Maryland. I drove almost 3 hours to get there, was the 8,000th person in line by the time I arrived. Waited all day and then some to get 5 minutes in a small room with someone doing double-duty as camera-person and interviewer, then drove home, and never heard from anyone at CNBC. End of story.

Here's his - https://thehustle.co/how-a-5-dollar-investment-got-me-into-shark-tank

The headline is "How a $5 investment *GOT* me into Shark Tank" [emphasis on "GOT" is mine]. That's the sort of click-bait title guaranteed to attract eyeballs.

But...it turns out, he didn't get onto the show, from what I can tell.

He auditioned once, going through the same process I did, and didn't get on. A year later, he heard about another casting call, but instead of changing his pitch, or updating his business plan, he decided to virtually "cut the line"...

_"Last summer I heard about the same casting call that I attended the year before. This time, instead of spending my morning waiting in line, I decided to try a different approach."_

How did he cut the line? Welcome to the wonderful world of millennial-inspired short cuts.

Step 1 - hire a Kickstarter promotion company to tweet about your "incredible college #entrepreneur 'success'," and tag the casting agency for the show.

Step 2 - pay some other college kid $5 to retweet it 500 times, so it looks like there's real social engagement happening, and the tweet is going viral - _"To a common Twitter user, this tweet seemed to have a ton of organic engagement but in actuality, only 26 of the retweets were real."_

What was that "college entrepreneur success" story?

_"At the time, my startup - Yes Man Watches - was just 1 year-old and breaking 6 figures in revenue. Not bad for a sophomore in college."_ - Translation: he limped past $100,000 in gross sales (if he was telling the truth), and decided he was ready for millions of dollars of outside investment.

$100,000 in gross sales isn't a big number, even for a college kid, unless you're selling $2 t-shirts you and your frat-brothers silk-screened for $20-$25. When you're making watches, even cheap, minimalist, quartz watches, it's kind of a small number, and likely not much profit in it.

They sold about 300 pieces on Kickstarter, for $32k. Where did the other $68k come from? If they made 500 watches, and sold the other 200 units for $200 (which seems unlikely), that's still just $40,000.

But, the fake re-tweets worked (sort of). Someone from the casting agency did contact them - to suggest he audition, which I think means they want him to come back and stand in line with hundreds of other people again, so all the $5 got him was an email telling him what he already knew.

But, did that dampen his enthusiasm?

Nope. Not hardly...
_
"Now the real question - did I get on Shark Tank? The casting process at Shark Tank is pretty closed-door and you never know when you'll be called to action. With that being said, if you found this hack useful, I'd appreciate your help getting me on the show!

Here is what you can do to help - please tweet: @SSalyersCasting @kloknight This @yesmanwatches story is incredible. Would crush it on season7 @ABCSharkTank! #collegeentrepreneur #inspired"_

So...after writing an article touting how he cut the line with a fake social media campaign, but is still no closer to getting onto the show, he's asking others to help him - for free - by retweeting the same post, in return for his useful advice.

I mean...at some point, maybe instead of using social media "hacks" to get you onto TV, so you can ask other people to invest in your still-not-successful-yet college business, you'll just give it the old "college try", and actually build a real business, the way most successful entrepreneurs do?

Say what you want about MVMT, they had a "real" business. They sold over a million watches, and reached $70M in revenue after five years, according to news reports. Movado agreed to pay a staggering $300 million for the company, so...dreams do come true, for some young startups. And they did it without getting on TV or with any help from Kevin O'Leary.

The thing is, MVMT and Yes Man watches were basically the same, crap product, sold in the same price range, with the same target market. The difference is one company's founders executed on a business plan, and the other company's founder looked for short cuts.

I don't like MVMT watches, and from what I've read, their quality stinks, so I imagine they're probably not WOW-ing any of their customers. But I have to tip my hat to the now-obscenely wealthy founders for having and executing on a vision.

I hope they both buy luxury-brand watches, the watches break, and they have to go through the extended hell of the typical luxury brand return-for-warranty-repair process.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Obviously, the whole phonetic alphabet is due for a re-write.
> 
> Watermelon, tweezer, facepalm...


You should have heard the voice mail message I left for a cop, when I was returning a call about the court case in which my son is a witness.

Here's me, giving the guy my email address...

"...at janistrading.com. That's Joseph, Apple, Nixon, Idiot, Samwise, Tango, Ringo, Asphalt, Dingo, Iraqui, Naughty, ******, dot com."


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

92gli said:


> Every time I see those tools say "join the movement" I have a gag reflex. Not because I know the product is crap. Because it's so obvious that they're targeting the "bros" in their early 20's that are fresh out of college and working a job they hate while desperately trying to hold on to their college lifestyle. Joining the movement is the exact opposite of what they really want, but most of them don't have a wiser co-worker that owns something like an Nth to show them the way. I was one of them many years ago; My watch was a Michael Kors :-(. :-d


That took a lot of courage to admit that in this forum. You are a better person for doing so.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

A bit of fun with the NTH UV torch while getting dressed this morning:



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

RmacMD said:


> That took a lot of courage to admit that in this forum. You are a better person for doing so.


I once had a Nixon too. That was actually a decently built item that took a hell of a beating for a few years. b-)


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> You should have heard the voice mail message I left for a cop, when I was returning a call about the court case in which my son is a witness.
> 
> Here's me, giving the guy my email address...
> 
> "...at janistrading.com. That's Joseph, Apple, Nixon, Idiot, Samwise, Tango, Ringo, Asphalt, Dingo, Iraqui, Naughty, ******, dot com."


Reading this was a serious "laugh out loud" moment. My wife actually asked me what I was reading...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Reading this was a serious "laugh out loud" moment. My wife actually asked me what I was reading...


My phonetics bring all the Lulz to the yard...


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

92gli said:


> I once had a Nixon too. That was actually a decently built item that took a hell of a beating for a few years. b-)


In my early WIS journey I bought several Invictas, 2 Poljots, and even a Stuhrling :-s. I bought them from a watch repair guy that came to my house, just like the Electrolux vacuum salesmen from back in the day. My horological acumen has since grown and matured.

Wow, I feel better now. Thanks for listening.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Even a Yes Man knows to say "no" to products advertised in SkyMall.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> In my early WIS journey I bought several Invictas, 2 Poljots, and even a Stuhrling :-s. I bought them from a watch repair guy that came to my house, just like the Electrolux vacuum salesmen from back in the day. My horological acumen has since grown and matured.
> 
> Wow, I feel better now. Thanks for listening.


"a watch repair guy that came to the house."

All my mental gears just came to a screeching halt.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Even a Yes Man knows to say "no" to products advertised in SkyMall.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I call BS.

I still want Marvin to get one of those flip-top globe mini-bars for his bachelor pad.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

CMFord said:


> The "ppl who launched MVMT" - I see what you did there with the whole people thing...


I wasn't doing "a thing". I just don't know if it was one guy, one girl, two guys, or a business firm. I've no idea. But, whoever they are, they are undoubtedly rich and happy now, so they ultimately won the game.


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

docvail said:


> Between 2014 and 2015, there was a very similarly-styled, similar-back-story, and apparently similarly-targeted startup called Yes Man watches, with the dubious slogan, "Be a YES man!"
> 
> They got some discussion on this forum, to include the brand founder joining in to defend/explain the brand. While being a "Yes Man" is a distinctively bad thing for guys of a certain generation (mine among them), the young, college student founder said the name was intended to be empowering, to encourage people to say "Yes!" to...I dunno, something, opportunities, extreme whatever.
> 
> ...


This feels like Gary Vaynerchuk hijacked Chris' account. He rails all the time about "fake entrepreneurs" who brag about getting funded but not about selling things. "Anybody can lose $300k per month, tell me when you make some money."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

92gli said:


> I once had a Nixon too. That was actually a decently built item that took a hell of a beating for a few years. b-)


Buddy of mine just had a Nixon serviced by a watchmaker to get it back up and running. Was one of those models with the wood veneer? Not cheap, I think he probably paid more for the service than he actually paid for the watch, and it's still beat to hell. Hey, it got a "like" from me when he posted about getting it fixed...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ewhulbert said:


> This feels like Gary Vaynerchuk hijacked Chris' account. He rails all the time about "fake entrepreneurs" who brag about getting funded but not about selling things. "Anybody can lose $300k per month, tell me when you make some money."
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Guys I know who work in digital ads hate Gary. Apparently they blame him for the "every a$$hole and his brother is now a digital ad specialist" phenomenon.

But I'll sometimes watch one of his videos someone's posted in my FB feed. And I usually end up agreeing with him, at least on substance.

There is an elegant simplicity in the whole "shut up and ______; coffee is for closers" mindset. It's almost impossible to argue against.

Did it counts.

Gonna do it, plan to do it, almost did it, and all other mutterings coming out of I'mGonnaStan don't count.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> "a watch repair guy that came to the house."
> 
> All my mental gears just came to a screeching halt.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Yep, he came to the house. He did not have a brick & mortar shop, he worked out of his house which was several miles outside of town. A customer would call him up, tell him what he needed done, and repair guy would set up a time to pick up the watch at the customer's house. He would give the customer an preliminary estimate of the repair and a delivery lead time. When the watch was done he would call the customer and set up a time to return the watch. Not sure if he was trained as a 'watch maker', but he did have some level of technical training in watch repair. He has made a living for several decades repairing watches and clocks.

With regard to selling new watches, I believe he was getting them from a wholesaler(s). The watches I bought all had boxes, papers, and warranty cards. This was 20 years ago so I have no idea what the distribution structure was at that time for the brands I mentioned.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Diggity double post!

Random pic...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Diggity double post!
> 
> Random pic...


And suddenly I'm a leg man!


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Rhorya said:


> And suddenly I'm a leg man!


Barbi-Q


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



CMA22inc said:


> Barbi-Q


She got roasted at the last shindig!


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> You should have heard the voice mail message I left for a cop, when I was returning a call about the court case in which my son is a witness.
> 
> Here's me, giving the guy my email address...
> 
> "...at janistrading.com. That's Joseph, Apple, Nixon, Idiot, Samwise, Tango, Ringo, Asphalt, Dingo, Iraqui, Naughty, ******, dot com."


That'll either get you shot or arrested over there these days you know

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Guys I know who work in digital ads hate Gary. Apparently they blame him for the "every a$$hole and his brother is now a digital ad specialist" phenomenon.
> 
> But I'll sometimes watch one of his videos someone's posted in my FB feed. And I usually end up agreeing with him, at least on substance.
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



CMA22inc said:


> Barbi-Q


Terrible...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

CMFord said:


> The "ppl who launched MVMT" - I see what you did there with the whole people thing...
> 
> Seriously though, MVMT is a marketing company, not a watch company. They've been very successful and are better off than nearly any micro brand you can find (possibly any of them) but it's like buying local or buying from Wal-Mart. There's talent, passion, and personality or there's focus groups, lowest common denominator design, and lots of marketing.


One of the channels I watch regularly on YouTube is "The Straight Pipes" car review channel. On episodes that are sponsored by Vincero, they are wearing Vinceros. The rest of the time, one of the hosts wears an SKX, and the other host usually doesn't wear a watch. That should tell you all you need to know about how they _actually_ feel about those watches.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

My first automatic was a Stauer, which was the crappiest piece of crap I've ever worn. It had a threaded crown for no discernible reason since it had barely any water resistance, and that bastard would. not. screw. down. Seriously, it would take at least a half dozen tries every time to get it to actually engage the threads properly. My Zodiac's crown was "finicky," but using the crown on that Stauer was torture. The worst part is it wasn't even that cheap, I think it was something like $180 for a Chinese movement that needed pushers to set the day and month. I could've gotten a half decent Orient or Seiko 5 for that, had I known anything about watches at the time.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

barracuday!


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Bump


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I call BS.
> 
> I still want Marvin to get one of those flip-top globe mini-bars for his bachelor pad.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


no international man of mystery flip top globe in the works - us working stiffs have to set aside coins for the next nth release. priorities man!!

did make a costco run yesterday though. does that count?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Daaang that's a nice angle.

Makes me think... a special edition of that model, with a textured imprint of the moon's surface* instead of the random-texture-circle, would be amazing / must-get.

*- e.g. like from the Omega speedy dsotm/apollo-8 version


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

P.S. hey doc, this thread might be of vague interest to you: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/long-term-feasibility-microbrands-boutique-companies-5007875.html . "Long term feasibility of microbrands". Not asking you to participate or anything, just figured there might be some residual value for ya in the discussion/opinions taking place there.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Daaang that's a nice angle.
> 
> Makes me think... a special edition of that model, with a textured imprint of the moon's surface* instead of the random-texture-circle, would be amazing / must-get.
> 
> *- e.g. like from the Omega speedy dsotm/apollo-8 version


Aw, but then Doc will have to fend off complaints that he's just cashing in on the MOOOOOON WATCH trend without MOOOOON WATCH legitimacy.

Anyway, a more intentional texture design would be nifty, though I don't know about putting moon texture on something that's ostensibly a diver. Maybe the Mariana Trench or the Galapagos Islands or something. I love that model to begin with, so if Doc to brought it back and played around with the design a bit more, I think some cool stuff could happen. (An all-out tacticool variant could be fun.)



X2-Elijah said:


> P.S. hey doc, this thread might be of vague interest to you: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/long-term-feasibility-microbrands-boutique-companies-5007875.html . "Long term feasibility of microbrands". Not asking you to participate or anything, just figured there might be some residual value for ya in the discussion/opinions taking place there.


Why would you do that to the poor man? Doc doesn't need the frustration of trying to unpack and process F2 nonsense. He's got enough nonsense to deal with here!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> P.S. hey doc, this thread might be of vague interest to you: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/long-term-feasibility-microbrands-boutique-companies-5007875.html . "Long term feasibility of microbrands". Not asking you to participate or anything, just figured there might be some residual value for ya in the discussion/opinions taking place there.


I don't think I'll participate in this one.

Here's why -

That EXACT topic seems to recur more or less as frequently as many others, like the homage debate, the water resistance debate, the Asian-vs-Swiss debate, and countless more. I've gotten sucked into each and every one of those topics, more than once. I am certain I've always made my most logical appeal to people's sense of reason - and utterly failed.

If that thread was just a new group of guys having the same discussion, my entering the fray would be as pointless as it's always been. But I see that many of the people commenting are THE SAME guys I've debated on those topics in past threads. They're saying THE SAME things they always say (the same WRONG things).

I've been in so many of those debates, and read so many I didn't participate in, that I've reached the point where I can associate various forum usernames with their arguments. There's the "micros don't stock spare parts" guy, the "no heritage" guy, the "no customer support" guy, the "I'll never back a KS project" guy, the "just in it for a quick buck" guy, etc, etc, etc.

I already obliterated most of those guys and their arguments with unassailable facts and logic, easily referenced data, firsthand knowledge, tons of anecdotal support, historical perspective, math, useful analogies, and every other tool I could find or imagine. But clearly, nothing I've ever said or done has made any impact at all.

I can't fix what's wrong with the internet. I can't stop people from being wrong. I'm really trying to remind myself of that, and only wade in when there's a clear benefit to my business, like, I need to clarify something someone's said about it. I don't see any benefit here.

My results will have to serve as proof of concept.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Aw, but then Doc will have to fend off complaints that he's just cashing in on the MOOOOOON WATCH trend without MOOOOON WATCH legitimacy.
> 
> Anyway, a more intentional texture design would be nifty, though I don't know about putting moon texture on something that's ostensibly a diver. Maybe the Mariana Trench or the Galapagos Islands or something. I love that model to begin with, so if Doc to brought it back and played around with the design a bit more, I think some cool stuff could happen. (An all-out tacticool variant could be fun.)


I was thinking I'd make the center section a precise replica of the moles on my back.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Latest episode of Doc's House Calls is up. This one is with Chip from Aevig.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I can't fix what's wrong with the internet. I can't stop people from being wrong.


That doesn't seem to have stopped you from trying. First step is admitting you have a problem... well done, man!


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> I was thinking I'd make the center section a precise replica of the moles on my back.


If you made it a replica of the moles on your bum you could create a whole new kind of Moon Watch


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

True Story -

I talk to my retailers frequently. Every one of them agree that rampant discounting is the bane of the industry, and killing a lot of brands' value. 

It got me thinking about watch pricing, and wondering if it's all just supply and demand, or if there's more to it. It seems like there is, because the watches we talk about are luxury goods, inasmuch as no one with a mobile phone really needs any watch at all, and if you do, a cheap digital will keep time better than anything any of us is selling. Even "affordable" watches are luxury goods, for most people.

I started doing some research into luxury goods pricing and "premium" pricing theory, to see if I could find any agreement among academics/economists, and practitioners (marketers, the guys who set prices, etc). I wanted to see if the theory (in a nutshell, premium prices have a utility component, which is mostly a function of supply/demand, and what I'd call a "feel good" component, which is pure behavioral psychology) aligned with what I saw marketers doing (yes, in the successful cases, the theory and practices align very well). 

So then I started putting together a list of "best practices" that successful brands use to support both the utility component and that "feel good" component, and maintain premium pricing. I figured it would be good content for our Microbrand University Workshop, and have practical application with my retailers and their dealings with mine and other brands.

As I'm in the middle of this, last night, I get a message from a guy asking if I know where he can find a Zwaardvis. He wants an orange-dialed diver, and loves the NTH Subs. 

In my mind, I'm instantly transported back to the whole "Rolex planned a steel sports model shortage" debate. Like I said, no matter how many watches a brand produces, it'll seem like WAY too many at first, but the day after the last one sells, it'll seem like not enough.

The Zwaardvis may have been our least successful NTH Sub design, out of more than 30. The reasons don't matter. That's not the point. I know exactly why it wasn't a hit, which is all that matters. I knew it wouldn't be a huge hit when I ordered them. Luckily, this was before I promised my OEM I wouldn't ask them to make me less than 25 or 50 pieces of any one version. We only made 20, total - 10 date, and 10 no-date. Today, that model wouldn't make it into production.

We couldn't even sell 20 pieces. We gave away at least 3 that I can remember, maybe 4. My seat of the pants impression is that resale values on it are lower than the other models. Producing it was one of the weakest business decisions I've ever made. I'm glad I did it, if only to give myself absolute certainty that I know exactly what NOT to do when rationalizing production.

And yet, now that they're all gone, someone wants one. For that guy, there's a shortage. He might pay a premium to get one, and if he was prone to wild conjecture, he might think I deliberately created a shortage in order to create a situation where he had to pay more to get what he wants (with some unclear benefit to me)...

...as opposed to, what? Producing more than we could possibly sell, creating the opposite situation, where we either have to discount the hell out of them (so he can buy cheap), or give them away at events and for charity? 

That's EXACTLY what happened. We did in fact produce more than we could possibly sell. If we hadn't given 3 or 4 away, we'd still have them. If he bought one, we'd still have 2-3 we couldn't get rid of.

As we're talking, he tells me about another watch he bought, from another brand. I won't say the name, but it was the subject of some "is it really WORTH that?" debate. He didn't feel it was good value, and ended up selling it. As he's telling me why, he's telling me EXACTLY what my own research into luxury goods pricing revealed. 

I thought the price was very fair, given what I estimated the production costs to be, and what I could reasonably presume about the quality. He didn't fault the quality in any way. What he told me spoke to the intangible things which go into luxury goods pricing, those things which don't neatly square up with classic supply-vs-demand pricing theory. 

All this "bang for the buck/good value for money" talk is entirely subjective (behavioral psychology). The watch he bought was actually very good value for money (supply vs demand; utility vs cost), but he didn't feel that way. I told him, you're not wrong. There's just a gap between what you felt and what the brand/product purchase should have made you feel.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> P.S. hey doc, this thread might be of vague interest to you: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/long-term-feasibility-microbrands-boutique-companies-5007875.html . "Long term feasibility of microbrands". Not asking you to participate or anything, just figured there might be some residual value for ya in the discussion/opinions taking place there.


f2....


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> I was thinking I'd make the center section a precise replica of the moles on my back.


New brand called "Ewwww & Huey" 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

kpjimmy said:


> New brand called "Ewwww & Huey"
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Huey Lewis and the Ewwws?

Look at us bringing back all the dank old memes


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> f2....


Well played.



kpjimmy said:


> New brand called "Ewwww & Huey"
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Also well played.



X2-Elijah said:


> Huey Lewis and the Ewwws?
> 
> Look at us bringing back all the dank old memes


Alright, it's enough already.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

On the Rolex / shortage debate, you're in an interesting place, doc, that Rolex isn't. Even the subs - probably the most produced microbrand watch model out there nowadays - are made in the tens or hundreds per variant... so whether a batch sells out fast or not is highly dependent on individual decisions and individual fluctuations / happenstance.

Rolex is making their steel sports watches in such large numbers, that they can safely rely on average crowd behaviour - any individual idiosyncracies get smoothed out due to the volume, right? The nth subs (and even moreso, other, smaller-run microbrand models) cannot rely on average behaviours that much.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Listening to the Aevig interview rn. Around the later part, where you're both talking about thin watches...

It's kinda odd that thinness sometimes works and sometimes doesn't work as a sales pitch... For the subs, it seems to have worked rather well (and for good reason). And for the Orion Calamity, somehow that same thinness argument kinda flopped - so it isn't a sure-fire thing, not a model-seller guarantee..


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Doc's moles dial: the NTH 'Vailback', sort of a Skipjack vibe but w/ melanoma. Could be a break-out watch for the dermatologist population.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

FWIW, there was a time a few months ago where I was thinking, "I need an orange dial diver," at the same time as I was thinking, "I should give an NTH sub a try." Lo and behold, there was Zwaardis subs still available, among all the sold-out models. But not with a date. Bummer, because I so would have got one. Probably. 

Then I started reading DocVail's posts about running a microbrand, supply issues, etc. Saw how new releases were selling out almost immediately and that most stock of most models were unavailable, sold out. And saw a Zwaardis pop up as a charitable donation for that adoption cause. Thought to myself, "Aha -- now that's a model which is not selling..."

Give it a few years, NTH continuing to succeed, and all of a sudden Zwaardis, which Chris was literally giving away, will become a rare and sought-after model, commanding higher than other models prices...

(Followed inevitably for calls to re-issue it, and ensuing WoTs from Chris about why that won't happen.)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> On the Rolex / shortage debate, you're in an interesting place, doc, that Rolex isn't. Even the subs - probably the most produced microbrand watch model out there nowadays - are made in the tens or hundreds per variant... so whether a batch sells out fast or not is highly dependent on individual decisions and individual fluctuations / happenstance.
> 
> Rolex is making their steel sports watches in such large numbers, that they can safely rely on average crowd behaviour - any individual idiosyncracies get smoothed out due to the volume, right? The nth subs (and even moreso, other, smaller-run microbrand models) cannot rely on average behaviours that much.


I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Just my perception, but I think the biggest difference between me and Rolex is one of scale. Whatever advantages they have by being huge would seem at least partially offset by the advantages I gain by NOT being huge.

But certain fundamental realities remain the same, regardless of scale. If I produce 50 of a model, and they produce 5,000, we're both betting that we can sell at least that many, in a short enough time period, at a high enough price, in order to rationalize production.

Taking a guess at the implication of "buyer idiosyncracies" - I think it's a push, or a net zero effect. They have large numbers working for them, I make small numbers work for me. Whereas Rolex could never rationalize development of anything too far outside mainstream appetites, one of the values in microbrands is that we actually can rationalize making stuff that is way outside the mainstream, and make a business selling it all.

The larger my business grows, the less I can take advantage of being small. I used to think in terms of 25 pieces, then it was 50, now, if I don't think I can sell 100 pieces of any version of a model, I don't work on it. This is what leads to Rolex-type design and production volume for each model, and why the steel sports models are their most popular. What's to argue with there, as opposed to a leopard-print, bedazzled Daytona? It's also why I can't get sucked into making stuff that won't sell as well as the stuff I'm already making.

If, let's just say, my business was doing triple the volume it is now, then, I could probably entertain the idea of an auto-chrono, a GMT, titanium, bronze, ladies' models, an entry-level model, and all the other ideas people refuse to stop pitching me.

We'll sell at least 1500 watches this year, maybe 2,000. It's looking like they'll all be 40mm Subs, and the L/XL model won't be available until next year. The difference between 1500 and 2000 will be a function of factors outside my control - the economy, competition, time available, etc. I'll adjust on the fly, as I always have, and not worry about how quickly this batch sells versus the previous batch. I'm way past worrying about that stuff.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

We're mostly on the same conversation street  

I meant that, since you have (or.. had) batches with some variants in the tens, you couldn't rely as much on the average performance per batch as indicator - because individual idiosyncracies of buyers / almost-buyers will have a statistically higher impact than they would on e.g. Rolex's thousands-large batches. Hence the zwaardvis thing with not-selling, then sporadic-demand-when-sold-out.

Although, as you say, now the subs are going 1500 - 2000 per year.. then average crowd performance is statistically meaningful. 

I wonder how it will play out with the Huldra. Chip said he's making 600 watches for now, based on the preorder ratios... however, from the price-ladder on the aevig site, it looks like now there's somewhere between 151 to 349 Huldra's spoken for. Is that a large enough range to set the whole 600-watch variant ratios? idk.

(Edit: and tbh I don't expect to ever find out. I'm just idly wondering, across all microbrands, how much of these kinds of decisions are done by the owners' gut feel, how much - by signals in the statistics and trends, and how much - by random happenstance misinterpreted as a statistically meaningful signal...)


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Orange? I love fruit.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> We're mostly on the same conversation street
> 
> I meant that, since you have (or.. had) batches with some variants in the tens, you couldn't rely as much on the average performance per batch as indicator - because individual idiosyncracies of buyers / almost-buyers will have a statistically higher impact than they would on e.g. Rolex's thousands-large batches. Hence the zwaardvis thing with not-selling, then sporadic-demand-when-sold-out.
> 
> ...


Short version...

If, hypothetically, a brand owner determined the production mix of colorways and date/no-date options for a 500/600 piece production using the numbers from pre-orders, say, 1/3-1/2 of the total production, my past experience doing that suggests that the distribution will be more optimal than just an even split (an equal 100 pieces each of 5 or 6 versions), but still not perfect, for a few reasons.

1. Pre-order customers seem to have slightly different tastes than those who come later and order from inventory. My sense of it is that hardcore WIS are more engaged early on, so you see more no-date sales, as an example, but then, later on, those ordering from inventory prefer with-dates. I stopped bothering to dial in everything so down to the last piece. Now, I just make an equal number of dates/no-dates, and chunk every production up into units of 25 or 50 per version. They sell when they sell. I'm not worried about which ones sell out first.

2. Cost differences matter less when you're doing discounted pre-orders. When we did the Phantom, the full price on the DLC versions was $25 higher. But they sold better when we were taking 25%-30% off in pre-order. Later, at full price, DLC didn't sell nearly as well.

3. There's an element of uncertainty, and thus, unpredictability about what will sell in the future. Maybe you post illustrations of 3 different colorways, and the black is the big hit, but then, when people start posting wrist shots, the blue takes off. It's hit or miss. Sometimes there's just no explanation for what the hell just happened. The more I do this, though, the more I notice patterns, so I sort have a "feel" for what to make, so pre-orders are just not as valuable to me any more, as a risk-management tool.

4. None of the above really matters, at the end of it all. There's no perfect matching of supply and demand in this game. Every time I've looked at inventory for any model, starting on the first day of sales, and every time I looked at it after that, down to the last few pieces, I could see what looked like an inventory imbalance to me. If you could precisely predict what 500 customers will want, you still couldn't predict WHEN they'll want it. You'll get weeks where you sell 5 pieces of one version, and then none at all for a month. No explaining it.

It's like flipping a coin 1,000 times in a row. You're going to get heads-tails-heads streaks, but also get tails-tails-tails streaks, which seem strange when they happen, but aren't really strange, compared to how strange it would be if you saw heads-tails-heads-tails for 1000 flips in sequence, with no change in the pattern. If you flipped ten times, and it was tails ten times, that seems strange, but a ten-tails streak in 10,000 flip sequence is almost to be expected.

We made something like 13 different versions of the DevilRay. The last piece of each version didn't sell out on the same day. That would surprise me. It's not surprising when the black doesn't do as well as the blue in pre-order, so we make less of it, but then it turns out better when people see real-world pics, and it's the first to sell out. It's more surprising to me that there's one white piece still available than it was that we had a few turquoise and orange left long after we'd sold out of the black.

Again, this is why I don't credit the "Rolex wanted this" theory, at all. If they could create a situation where one model sells out, creating a frenzy, and that somehow benefited them, why not do it for ALL models? I would. I try to manage production so that we minimize inventory imbalances, and I think I'm getting pretty good at it, but I can't predict seasonal spikes or dips in global demand, the effect of geopolitical events, what my competition will do, interest rates, currency exchange rates, etc. They all have an effect. Even Rolex can't predict all of that with any real degree of certainty.

You think the riots in Hong Kong are having an effect on some businesses? Bet your a$$ they are. Were they predictable?

Rolex underestimated the future demand for some models. It happens. It doesn't need a complex theory to explain it.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> The Zwaardvis may have been our least successful NTH Sub design, out of more than 30. The reasons don't matter. That's not the point. I know exactly why it wasn't a hit, which is all that matters. I knew it wouldn't be a huge hit when I ordered them.
> ...


Reasons may not matter. But I'd be interested to hear them if you'd care to share. I wouldn't trade any of my Subs for it. But I like it enough that I briefly considered a used one. Would be interesting to know if it has some deal breaking quality that I'm only able to see subconsciously.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

^^ I was tempted over the past ~week when a couple hit WR for ~$400 in new/like-new cond. Crazy (imo). But I still didn't pull the trigger...

That White DR is sitting... I've been tempted, but haven't worked with The Watchdrobe before. Currency exchange is flat to usd, but lack of PayPal may hurt and I haven't seen it come up in their social feeds. Probably just isn't getting the exposure it needs to move.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

One that surprises me is that the Amphion Dark Gilt seemingly did so poorly. The other gilt versions (which are well above it in terms of desirability) weren't even in the works as far as I know, when the Dark Gilt was released, and it has fallen completely off the radar of the Sub buyer. Somebody recently listed the 30+ Sub versions, and it wasn't even mentioned. As of right now, it's the only Sub I have, and I bought it direct from Doc when he had one of his collection dispersals. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it looks like it ranks with the Zwaardvis as far as desirability is concerned.


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> One that surprises me is that the Amphion Dark Gilt seemingly did so poorly. The other gilt versions (which are well above it in terms of desirability) weren't even in the works as far as I know, when the Dark Gilt was released, and it has fallen completely off the radar of the Sub buyer. Somebody recently listed the 30+ Sub versions, and it wasn't even mentioned. As of right now, it's the only Sub I have, and I bought it direct from Doc when he had one of his collection dispersals. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it looks like it ranks with the Zwaardvis as far as desirability is concerned.


You can peel my Amphion Dark Gilt off my cold dead wrist, so maybe that's why there's no action in the secondary market


----------



## Cosmodromedary (Jul 22, 2015)

I'm just gonna leave this here.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/thierry-stern-patek-philippe-steel-watches-nautilus

I think that settles the artificial scarcity debate!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Reasons may not matter. But I'd be interested to hear them if you'd care to share. I wouldn't trade any of my Subs for it. But I like it enough that I briefly considered a used one. Would be interesting to know if it has some deal breaking quality that I'm only able to see subconsciously.


Handset, dial pattern, and color.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> ^^ I was tempted over the past ~week when a couple hit WR for ~$400 in new/like-new cond. Crazy (imo). But I still didn't pull the trigger...
> 
> That White DR is sitting... I've been tempted, but haven't worked with The Watchdrobe before. Currency exchange is flat to usd, but lack of PayPal may hurt and I haven't seen it come up in their social feeds. Probably just isn't getting the exposure it needs to move.


The exchange rate is constant, because they pegged their currency to the US Dollar.

Asia has never been our biggest market, for many reasons. We're trying to grow it.

Just my opinion, but I think it's sub-optimal for any multi-brand store to carry more brands than they can effectively promote. I think half a dozen brands is enough to keep a one-man show busy.

Assume every brand is doing an average of two new releases each year. Times six brands, that's a dozen new releases, or one every month, if they were spaced out evenly (which they never are). Each new release needs the store to promote it, then receive the inventory, do their own QC, take orders, handle pre-sale questions, do order fulfillment, handle post-sale support, etc.

It's a lot of work. Most stores are just carrying too many brands, and aren't nearly as selective as they ought to be. They try to give each brand's new release the same level of attention and effort, but that's just inefficient. If you own the store, and you can sell 50 NTH Subs, or 5 pieces of some other brand's latest model, why give each of them the same level of effort, time, and attention?

They all end up in the 80-20 place. 80% of their revenue comes from 20% of their brands, but they don't know in advance which brands they'll be, and the more brands they have, the harder it is for them to see which are worth having on their site.

TL;DR - no, they're not giving any of them enough exposure, but that's why I pay a marketing guy to continue promoting the brand and each new release, rather than leaving it up to the retailers to do all the heavy lifting.



MikeyT said:


> One that surprises me is that the Amphion Dark Gilt seemingly did so poorly. The other gilt versions (which are well above it in terms of desirability) weren't even in the works as far as I know, when the Dark Gilt was released, and it has fallen completely off the radar of the Sub buyer. Somebody recently listed the 30+ Sub versions, and it wasn't even mentioned. As of right now, it's the only Sub I have, and I bought it direct from Doc when he had one of his collection dispersals. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it looks like it ranks with the Zwaardvis as far as desirability is concerned.


It didn't do poorly. It was more popular than the Zwaardvis, but all the Amphions were eclipsed by the Nackens.

If we make 30+ versions of a model, there's going to be a more-or-less bell-shaped popularity distribution curve. Some are going to be on the wrong side of the mid-point. The farther to the left they are, the less we make, the less likely we are to make more, or at least, the less frequently we'll make more.

The Amphion Commando is coming soon. We'll bring back more Amphion versions. A gilt-relief version seems like a no-brainer, and would likely be made in lieu of an applied-indice "Dark Gilt" Amphion.



rscaletta said:


> You can peel my Amphion Dark Gilt off my cold dead wrist, so maybe that's why there's no action in the secondary market


My reading of the tea-leaves is that most of the activity for any model on the used market takes place around 4 landmark dates:

1. Right after release/delivery. Microbrand does a KS or pre-order. Everyone who pre-orders gets their watches at the same time, months later, and a bunch of those guys decide they don't want it any more, so a bunch hit the secondary market.

2. Six months later. Everyone who didn't sell right after delivery still has theirs, but a lot of guys get bored of any watch after about 6 months, so there's another spike in secondary market activity.

3. About six months after that. Everyone who gets bored after 12 months, and some of the guys who picked them up on the secondary market end up flipping them.

4. (With Swiss movements) About 5 years after release, when people start to approach that recommended service interval, and realize that they're looking at a $200-$300 service bill for a watch that's now worth about $200-$300.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cosmodromedary said:


> I'm just gonna leave this here.
> 
> https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/thierry-stern-patek-philippe-steel-watches-nautilus
> 
> I think that settles the artificial scarcity debate!


Meh, maybe, if you take all of it as the unassailable truth.

They're analyzing and explaining a result after it happened, then discussing what to do about it.

Things could have worked out completely differently, and they'd be having a completely different discussion.

Patek likes to focus production on precious metals. Okay, fine for Patek. But when the global economy is growing, the upwardly mobile start to show more demand for luxury goods, and it often starts with entry-level models for luxury brands, i.e, steel.

Did Patek deliberately produce less because they wanted there to be a shortage? Or did they just underestimate demand, because they were basing production on past history?

Read between the lines. Their plan to adjust is to gradually increase supply. That sounds like they base future production on past sales, which is what many smart and mature companies do. It's neither right, nor wrong, but it can and often does lead to under- or over-production, because the future isn't all that foreseeable.

"We deliberately didn't produce enough steel models to meet demand" sounds a lot smarter than "we totally $hlt the bed with our estimates."

To be fair, Patek and Rolex are outliers. In terms of desirability, those brands are head and shoulders above their price-point peers. Most of their peers are still over-producing, and fueling the gray market.

If Patek and Rolex just said, "we're conservative in our estimates, because we don't want to get wrapped up in over-production, because that devalues our brand, and we're okay accepting temporary shortages", I'd buy it, and I'd respect it, especially if they acknowledged the unspoken aspect of this - they're overstock on every model that isn't in short supply.

That's what I'm doing - being conservative in my production plans, in order to avoid over-production, because it devalues a brand, and I'm okay accepting temporary shortages due to sudden spikes in demand, but also willing to accept that there's also a risk I'll end up over-producing at times, or with some models, anyway, no matter what I do.

When I say it, does it sound like BS? It just seems logical to me. If y'all want me to make up something to make myself sound smarter than I am, I'll do it.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Handset, dial pattern, and color.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Cosmodromedary said:


> I'm just gonna leave this here.
> 
> https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/thierry-stern-patek-philippe-steel-watches-nautilus
> 
> I think that settles the artificial scarcity debate!


Patek makes 62,000 watches a year?! Holy cow. I would have guessed a fraction of that number.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> because the watches we talk about are luxury goods, inasmuch as no one with a mobile phone really needs any watch at all, and if you do, a cheap digital will keep time better than anything any of us is selling. *Even "affordable" watches are luxury goods*, for most people.
> ...


Well aren't we all a bunch of fancy lads, then?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> The exchange rate is constant, because they pegged their currency to the US Dollar.
> 
> Asia has never been our biggest market, for many reasons. We're trying to grow it.
> 
> ...


"Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way..."


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

yankeexpress said:


> "Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way..."


Any chance you could post a picture of the blue Amphion and the blue Barracuda side by side, seeing as you have both? 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

yankeexpress said:


>


Question for Doc -- so the new Amphion Commando will have white lume like the one on the right, not the faux vintage lume like the two on the left...?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Question for Doc -- so the new Amphion Commando will have white lume like the one on the right, not the faux vintage lume like the two on the left...?


The lume won't be like any of them.

It'll be "natural", which is the color we use on the Bahia, and the vintage Nackens. It can take on different appearances depending on the underlying dial color and the light. It's a little darker than C3, but not as dark or brown as "old radium", which is the beige lume we used on the Santa Cruz, and vintage Amphions.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> Any chance you could post a picture of the blue Amphion and the blue Barracuda side by side, seeing as you have both?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Dp


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> The lume won't be like any of them.
> 
> It'll be "natural", which is the color we use on the Bahia, and the vintage Nackens. It can take on different appearances depending on the underlying dial color and the light. It's a little darker than C3, but not as dark or brown as "old radium", which is the beige lume we used on the Santa Cruz, and vintage Amphions.
> 
> ...




UV flashlight lighting sucks to photograph accurately. the Bahia has blue bezel lume, the vintage black Nacken has green bezel lume, the modern Amphion bezel lume is a lighter shade of green





Both Nacken and Bahia dials are green lume, the Amphion dial is blue

Bahia = blue bezel, green dial
Vintage Black Nacken = green, green
Modern Amphion = green bezel, blue dial


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> UV flashlight lighting sucks to photograph accurately. the Bahia has blue bezel lume, the vintage black Nacken has green bezel lume, the modern Amphion bezel lume is a lighter shade of green
> 
> Both Nacken and Bahia dials are green lume, the Amphion dial is blue
> 
> ...


Sorry, but the all the lume on the Modern Amphion is white BG W9, that glows blue. If it looks green, that's a trick of the light, or an effect of the underlying color of the bezel.

Trust me, it's white BG W9.

The Bahia uses the same BG W9 lume on the bezel, but the underlying color is a tad lighter.

The vintage Nacken uses "natural" lume on the dial and hands, but C3 on the bezel, because we found that using "natural" on the bezels looked canary yellow. Both the natural and C3 glow green, but the C3 had less color distortion on the bezels.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Appreciate that the NTH hand lume color always matches the dial lume color. 

Understand the thought and effort put into getting these details correct


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> The lume won't be like any of them.
> 
> It'll be "natural", which is the color we use on the Bahia, and the vintage Nackens. It can take on different appearances depending on the underlying dial color and the light. It's a little darker than C3, but not as dark or brown as "old radium", which is the beige lume we used on the Santa Cruz, and vintage Amphions.


Got it. Thanks.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Really had a hard time getting a good pic of this. Black horween on the skipjack. Bought this strap for my sarb but I think that watch will be staying on the bracelet. Looks pretty tough on the skipper.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Multi-tasking keeps me sane...


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Knowing Doc is a dog person and a former Helson SM owner



Skipper wants to play.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Simply beautiful

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Back to work!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> The lume won't be like any of them.
> 
> It'll be "natural", which is the color we use on the Bahia, and the vintage Nackens. It can take on different appearances depending on the underlying dial color and the light. It's a little darker than C3, but not as dark or brown as "old radium", which is the beige lume we used on the Santa Cruz, and vintage Amphions.
> 
> ...


Love those two models. I dig the mellow lume. "old radium" is cool on Santa Cruz. Not sure I'd choose it on other models.

An Amphion Vintage Black with "natural" lume would be difficult to resist.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

92gli said:


> Really had a hard time getting a good pic of this. Black horween on the skipjack. Bought this strap for my sarb but I think that watch will be staying on the bracelet. Looks pretty tough on the skipper.
> View attachment 14373971


Nice combo. Strap thickness goes well with the case.

What really caught my attention was "skipper". Are nicknames for Subs a thing? Hadn't noticed any before. Oh wait, there was one recently for an Odin, I think.

I might as well call my Bahia, "Baja" since I know how to pronounce that. Which I can't confidently say about the real name.


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

Skipjack









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

92gli said:


> Really had a hard time getting a good pic of this. Black horween on the skipjack. Bought this strap for my sarb but I think that watch will be staying on the bracelet. Looks pretty tough on the skipper.
> View attachment 14373971


It's a good looking strap. Where'd you source that one from? TIA.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

3WR said:


> Nice combo. Strap thickness goes well with the case.
> 
> What really caught my attention was "skipper". Are nicknames for Subs a thing? Hadn't noticed any before. Oh wait, there was one recently for an Odin, I think.
> 
> I might as well call my Bahia, "Baja" since I know how to pronounce that. Which I can't confidently say about the real name.


I was watching The perfect storm again the other night and suddenly I had the urge to say skipper. But it really should have been skippah :-d



Ian_61 said:


> It's a good looking strap. Where'd you source that one from? TIA.


https://www.ebay.com/str/Benchmark-Basics?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
2nd row of the list


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

92gli said:


> I was watching The perfect storm again the other night and suddenly I had the urge to say skipper. But it really should have been skippah :-d
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/str/Benchmark-Basics?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
> 2nd row of the list


I was living in Portland ME at that perfect time. Big waves? You betcha! That was a big effin' storm. Waves crashing at the foot of Portland Headlight, per my dumbass friend who went to look.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Happy Friday and weekend guys!


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

In a meeting staring at the Bahia on a paratrooper strap from WatchGecko.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

From a couple days ago.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

👻







The Ghost has materialised, no thanks to Fedex, who lost the first one, but thanks only to the consummate professionalism of John Keil, who shipped another practically overnight as soon as he heard about the problem.
I can see why doc rates him, and he really (co-)designed the hell out of this watch.

Magic.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

illumidata said:


> View attachment 14377357
> 
> The Ghost has materialised, no thanks to Fedex, who lost the first one, but thanks only to the consummate professionalism of John Keil, who shipped another practically overnight as soon as he heard about the problem.
> I can see why doc rates him, and he really (co-)designed the hell out of this watch.
> ...


The ghost is a seriously cool looking watch. California dials have really grown on me and the way it looks lumed is phenomenal.

That pic has me thinking, "Maybe I do need another sub?"

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

ewhulbert said:


> The ghost is a seriously cool looking watch. California dials have really grown on me and the way it looks lumed is phenomenal.
> 
> That pic has me thinking, "Maybe I do need another sub?"
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Call me maybe when the Ghost gets a date. It's a cool watch otherwise.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

ewhulbert said:


> The ghost is a seriously cool looking watch. California dials have really grown on me and the way it looks lumed is phenomenal.
> 
> That pic has me thinking, "Maybe I do need another sub?"
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It was the free lume torch that pushed me over the edge. Plus this will most likely be the only run of them.


Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Recently tried out a new Monster. Subtle off white lume looks like a Nod To History to me. And the finish on the bezel reminds me of Sub bezel inserts. The sloppy bezel action does not.

The overall vibe reminds me of what I imagine the Vanguard might look like. But the Vanguard will have at least one distinct advantage. The wearer won't have to walk around holding their finger on the watch to hide the Hubble telescope day-date magnifier.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Keeping the ‘and L&H’ part of the thread alive...


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

I like my brew with a side of NTH please.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMFord said:


> Keeping the 'and L&H' part of the thread alive...


Brush Script Font FTW!


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Reflections on the crystal. Notice the hummingbird.


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

~


----------



## awrose (Aug 12, 2015)

Three Amigos


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Brush Script Font FTW!


wifi dog lives on

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

CMFord said:


> Keeping the 'and L&H' part of the thread alive...


I dig the counterbalance on that guy. It's too bad Seiko or Miyota don't offer an affordable bi-compax commercial movement.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Scorpene, over the weekend.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Also going old school! So over the top coordination 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

So these are rare ha?










Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> So these are rare ha?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very.

So is the Tiburón, also just 20 pieces total.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Two lightly modified NTH subs. You can barely tell they've been touched. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

jelliottz said:


> Two lightly modified NTH subs. You can barely tell they've been touched.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very interesting 'cuda mod. Is that PVD or cerakote on the bezel, and how'd you do it? I was under the impression that the bezels on NTH subs aren't intended to be removable.


----------



## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

I am 78 messages behind, spent day getting ready for trip and now out for dinner with Mrs kgrier, but first had to do horse check 









Sent by Tapatalk as the warp core is ejecti.....


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Very interesting 'cuda mod. Is that PVD or cerakote on the bezel, and how'd you do it? I was under the impression that the bezels on NTH subs aren't intended to be removable.


They should not be removed

Life involves risk










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> Also going old school! So over the top coordination
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I went ol school today as well









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Very interesting 'cuda mod. Is that PVD or cerakote on the bezel, and how'd you do it? I was under the impression that the bezels on NTH subs aren't intended to be removable.


Cerakote.

They're not intended to be removable. You're right. That said, they're also not intended to have their lugs drilled out for larger bars, insert swaps, or new hands. They're definitely not intended for vintage stretch rivet bracelets. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

hwa said:


> They should not be removed
> 
> Life involves risk
> 
> ...


This guy knows what I'm talking about.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Fair warning - if you destroy your case, bezel assembly, or both, trying to modify your watch, we don't supply replacements of those parts.

We also don't replace any of the other parts that tend to suffer damage during ham-fisted modding attempts, like dials that got scratched doing a handset replacement, or hands with tool marks on them, or movements with sheared off fourth wheel posts.

If you buy a modded watch, don't ask for replacement parts to undo what some chucklehead did. You knew it was modded when you bought it.

Our parts supply is limited, and reserved for needed customer repairs. Opening up the case voids your warranty. Owner-inflicted abuse is not covered.

You've been warned.




Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> Fair warning - if you destroy your case, bezel assembly, or both, trying to modify your watch, we don't supply replacements of those parts.
> 
> We also don't replace any of the other parts that tend to suffer damage during ham-fisted modding attempts, like dials that got scratched doing a handset replacement, or hands with tool marks on them, or movements with sheared off fourth wheel posts.
> 
> ...


This guy also knows what he's talking about.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I drive my car hard, too. Its just stuff, man. Made for fun. If something breaks, oops. 

But yeah, if that worries you, dont do it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I’ll add this: it’s not that the originals are less than awesome. They’re all really good. It’s just that the one-offs are fun. Something about wearing one, knowing there are no others, that feels different than strapping on a “forum favorite.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

My crown almost aligns perfectly north. So close. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jelliottz said:


> My crown almost aligns perfectly north. So close.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That should be fixed under warranty.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

So the other day, with the Scorpene I got about 3 weeks ago, I noticed one of the bracelet screws coming out.

"Huh, must not have tightened it enough/all the way when I adjusted the bracelet for fit." *shrug*

So I tightened it down and just for S&G, checked the rest of the screws. All of them were not quite seated/tight. Word of warning -- when you adjust your bracelet, take a minute to check the rest of the screws.

Also, in the same sense as using a wood chisel to open a paint can, the prong-end of a Bergeon springbar tool does a great job as a bracelet screw screwdriver...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> So the other day, with the Scorpene I got about 3 weeks ago, I noticed one of the bracelet screws coming out.
> 
> "Huh, must not have tightened it enough/all the way when I adjusted the bracelet for fit." *shrug*
> 
> ...











Bracelet screws are not self-tapping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...QC seems to be the topic du jour (not here in this thread, but, it's being discussed).

Just for context....









Source - Part Tolerance: How does it affect price? - Axis Fabrication

Although the tolerance is shown in inches, not mm, that's the fundamental challenge we have here. Because we're discussing watches, we're sometimes dealing with guys who want 0mm tolerances (or the figurative QC equivalent), but we price to a 0.15mm tolerance (and the figurative QC equivalent). The problem I keep running into is trying to explain to those guys why what they think is "unacceptable" is in fact, very acceptable, and not a defect.

If everyone wants us to get as close as possible to that mythical 0mm tolerance/100% perfection mark, we have to charge 4x what we do..

Thankfully, 99.5% of customers are happy with the quality we deliver at the price we charge. It's just a numbers game. We can't please the 0.5% who want 0mm tolerances at 0.15mm prices.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



uvalaw2005 said:


> That should be fixed under warranty.


Obvs. It is more than 4% off, after all.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> So I tightened it down and just for S&G, checked the rest of the screws. All of them were not quite seated/tight. Word of warning -- when you adjust your bracelet, take a minute to check the rest of the screws.


yep, same. Good advice.


> Also, in the same sense as using a wood chisel to open a paint can, the prong-end of a Bergeon springbar tool does a great job as a bracelet screw screwdriver...


Heh. I've done that... that's an excellent way to break off the springbar tool's tips


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

.









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

jelliottz said:


> Cerakote.
> 
> They're not intended to be removable. You're right. That said, they're also not intended to have their lugs drilled out for larger bars, insert swaps, or new hands. They're definitely not intended for vintage stretch rivet bracelets.
> 
> ...


Gotcha. Well you should be able to swap hands on basically any watch. I'm sure there are less options available for the Miyota than the boat loads of third party Seiko hands, but the 9015 isn't exactly uncommon.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Gotcha. Well you should be able to swap hands on basically any watch, *assuming you can find hands the correct length, since dial diameters aren't universal*. I'm sure there are less options available for the Miyota than the boat loads of third party Seiko hands, but the 9015 isn't exactly uncommon.


FTFY.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> FTFY.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Fewer, not less, ffs

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Devil Ray Deep Six - nowhere near its WR rating as my kiddo splashes me.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

CMFord said:


> Devil Ray Deep Six - nowhere near its WR rating as my kiddo splashes me.


Wow. That picture (the watch part) looks so real and crisp and detailed that it almost looks fake. At least it does on my phone. Like it came from one of those ridiculously detailed modern animated movies.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Just an iPhone and some instagram filters!



3WR said:


> CMFord said:
> 
> 
> > Devil Ray Deep Six - nowhere near its WR rating as my kiddo splashes me.
> ...


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

CMFord said:


> Devil Ray Deep Six - nowhere near its WR rating as my kiddo splashes me.


I think the splash being nowhere near the WR rating has to do with how much and how fast the water is hitting the watch. My understanding (based on Doc's WOT) is that it's not just the depth of the water but also how much force is being applied!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment diGBtY_g.jpeg


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> I think the splash being nowhere near the WR rating has to do with how much and how fast the water is hitting the watch. My understanding (based on Doc's WOT) is that it's not just the depth of the water but also how much force is being applied!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think that has much, if anything to do with it.

WR ratings are just pressure ratings. There's no added pressure from splashes.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I don't think that has much, if anything to do with it.
> 
> WR ratings are just pressure ratings. There's no added pressure from splashes.


Have you really not stumbled onto any of those endless threads debating static vs. dynamic water pressure...?


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> Have you really not stumbled onto any of those endless threads debating static vs. dynamic water pressure...?


Now you are just trying to crank him up....

For your dining and dancing pleasure: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/sigh-myth-busting-again-610734.html


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> Have you really not stumbled onto any of those endless threads debating static vs. dynamic water pressure...?


Not sure if serious or sarcastic.

Yes, I've seen them. I've been neck-deep in some. The last one made me swear to myself, up and down, that I'd never get sucked into another.

Just as an example of the lunacy - everyone who throws out "dynamic pressure" is, in my view, immediately disqualified from contributing anything meaningful to the debate. Dynamic pressure refers to the pressure which exists within closed fluid transfer systems. Think liquids flowing through pumps and pipes. It has to do with the pressure changes ("dynamic", meaning, the pressure changes) in those systems as the volume, temperature and speed varies.

Dynamic pressure has nothing to do with what happens to your watch as you enter the water or move through it, at the surface or at depth. Everyone who uses that term within a WR debate is using it incorrectly.

People make a big deal about WR ratings meaning something other than what they'd seem to mean. The industry doesn't help. Just the opposite, many in the industry have only clouded the issue by putting forth overly-conservative recommendations about the activities which are safe or unsafe at each rating.

Like I said, WR ratings are really pressure ratings, inasmuch as the the ratings are usually expressed using metrics of pressure (ATM or BAR), which correspond to the pressure which exists at various depths (30 ATM ~ 300m).

If a watch is 30 ATM WR, it's supposed to be able to withstand 30 ATM of pressure, which is what exists at 300m of depth. Moving at depth has no bearing on the pressure at depth. No one is moving that fast. You're not Aquaman, and you're not in a closed system (there's no ceiling on open water).

Many think there's some extreme increase in pressure when hitting the surface, either by swimming (slapping your arm on the surface), diving in (hitting the surface), falling off a boat (to go scuba diving), or falling off a jetski (going fast).

With a diving watch, anything over 20 ATM / 200m WR, none of those things are going to have any effect. At 10 ATM or less, most are likewise unlikely to have any effect. You're not creating much additional pressure by swimming, diving in, or falling into the water off the side of a small boat.

Perhaps cliff-diving, or otherwise hitting the surface at high speed will have some effect, but that's not from increased pressure, it's from impact. In that scenario, we're no longer talking about water/pressure resistance, we're talking about shock-resistance, and structural integrity. A higher WR watch is likely to have higher structural integrity, but the fact remains, any effects are more likely from the shock at impact, not because you're hitting water, specifically.

To give an extreme example - if you fall from an airplane over the ocean, you'll die on impact with the surface. You might as well be hitting dirt. It won't matter. If your watch shatters, that's not a WR failure, it's a structural failure.

There are other aspects to it. Depending on who you ask and what you read, it may be ill-advised to wear a watch in situations involving rapid temperature changes (in and out of a hot-tub being the primary example).

Likewise, long-term exposure to chemicals (like chlorine) might lead to a more rapid wearing-out of your WR seals, but again, that's a chemical effect over time, not a situation where the activity itself is causing you to exceed the WR rating. If your seals wear out, you didn't exceed the WR spec, your WR was compromised by parts being worn out.

Whereas basic pressure testing can be done very quickly, in a dry / vacuum environment, ISO dive-watch spec testing is a little different, in that the ISO testing requires some prolonged wet-testing. I'm honestly not sure why this is, or that it isn't needlessly redundant (I believe it is). I can't imagine what explanation there could be for a watch being able to withstand a 20 ATM pressure test, but somehow suffering from sitting in a shallow pool for a few hours.

Why does the industry put forth nonsense recommendations regarding what should or shouldn't be done with various WR ratings? I suspect it's just companies being conservative, in the hopes of limiting their own risk of warranty claims.

Perhaps the industry understands that people aren't going to have their WR seals replaced as often as they should, so a watch which was rated for 20 ATM when new might still be good to 10 ATM after 2 years of swimming in a pool or the ocean every day.

Perhaps the industry doesn't expect the average consumer to understand that a sauna isn't the ideal environment for a low WR watch, so they put out overly conservative recommendations for use at each WR rating.

Perhaps the industry sees value in getting people to think they need higher WR, since higher WR usually comes at a higher price.

TL; DR - the debates are pointless. Your 200m WR watch should be good to 200m. You don't need to worry about a 10 ATM watch while swimming. Be more careful with your low WR watches, not because the WR ratings mean something other than what they appear to mean, but because it's possible you're overlooking the effects of temperature, ambient moisture (humidity), and the correlation between WR and structural integrity.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

tl;dr summary:


docvail said:


> You're not Aquaman


True. Aquaman doesn't wear a watch.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Avo said:


> tl;dr summary:
> 
> True. Aquaman doesn't wear a watch.


I thought he'd wear a Nemo or Baltic...

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

And following the Aquaman theme. What watch does Prince Namor wear?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

^Gurthang54 said:


> And following the Aquaman theme. What watch does Prince Namor wear?


Easy..def a Heroic18

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> I think the splash being nowhere near the WR rating has to do with how much and how fast the water is hitting the watch. My understanding (based on Doc's WOT) is that it's not just the depth of the water but also how much force is being applied!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I remember a bit about that WoT - seems like my kiddo isn't able to push the water hard enough to break the pressure the DevilRay is designed to withstand but I'll be careful in the future...


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> There are other aspects to it. Depending on who you ask and what you read, it may be ill-advised to wear a watch in situations involving rapid temperature changes (in and out of a hot-tub being the primary example).


I've had a 100M Seiko 5 get water in the case after about six months of daily wear and I was never deeper than 15 feet (always rinsed in fresh water). My watchmaker thought it was likely due to extreme temp variance (ambient air temp 90, water temp 46) creating a vacuum that permits water ingress, also more likely to happen in relatively shallow water were pressure is essentially equal to surface and the gaskets aren't being compressed by added pressure. One miniscule drop of saltwater gets pulled in at the crown and when you go back into the heat and sun, and everything warms up, it vaporizes and disperses through-out the whole movement. Subtle, but impactful, corrosion. Not a big deal on a $100 Seiko 5, but imagine having to replace a movement on something from the luxury side of the aisle?

I think where watch manufacturers are conservative is because of the summation of all the factors- shock, structural integrity, chemicals etc.- add up to more than simply submerging to depth, saying well "it can withstand pressures to 10ATM" doesn't account for real world application. It's one of the reasons why I couldn't buy an Oris Diver 65. Oris insists 100M WR is suitable only for _surface_ water activities. While there is no doubt it can withstand being submerged to 100M and likely well beyond, they don't believe it is constructed robustly enough to stand behind that depth in actual application. It's a pretty heritage piece- not a real diver- I'd rather spend that kind of money on something else. Generally speaking, depth rating ALSO comments on the quality of structural integrity required to achieve that depth rating- tighter tolerances, better gaskets, thicker materials, etc. I simply don't worry about my SKX or my NTH Odin, because of the overall robustness of the build that the depth rating reveals to me. It's a good assumption that the depth rating means it can take a daily beating and still handle normal dive depths (even though I likely won't be seeing those depths either).


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)




----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

...









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



gsurf said:


> I've had a 100M Seiko 5 get water in the case after about six months of daily wear and I was never deeper than 15 feet (always rinsed in fresh water). My watchmaker thought it was likely due to extreme temp variance (ambient air temp 90, water temp 46) creating a vacuum that permits water ingress, also more likely to happen in relatively shallow water were pressure is essentially equal to surface and the gaskets aren't being compressed by added pressure. One miniscule drop of saltwater gets pulled in at the crown and when you go back into the heat and sun, and everything warms up, it vaporizes and disperses through-out the whole movement. Subtle, but impactful, corrosion. Not a big deal on a $100 Seiko 5, but imagine having to replace a movement on something from the luxury side of the aisle?
> 
> I think where watch manufacturers are conservative is because of the summation of all the factors- shock, structural integrity, chemicals etc.- add up to more than simply submerging to depth, saying well "it can withstand pressures to 10ATM" doesn't account for real world application. It's one of the reasons why I couldn't buy an Oris Diver 65. Oris insists 100M WR is suitable only for _surface_ water activities. While there is no doubt it can withstand being submerged to 100M and likely well beyond, they don't believe it is constructed robustly enough to stand behind that depth in actual application. It's a pretty heritage piece- not a real diver- I'd rather spend that kind of money on something else. Generally speaking, depth rating ALSO comments on the quality of structural integrity required to achieve that depth rating- tighter tolerances, better gaskets, thicker materials, etc. I simply don't worry about my SKX or my NTH Odin, because of the overall robustness of the build that the depth rating reveals to me. It's a good assumption that the depth rating means it can take a daily beating and still handle normal dive depths (even though I likely won't be seeing those depths either).


Not all watches with similar WR ratings are created equal. The SKX for example may be an ISO certified 200M diver, but its crown seal is pretty rudimentary. Compare that to say, Rolex's Triplock, which can keep water out (though I'm not sure to what pressure) even with the crown unscrewed. That would kill an SKX in a swimming pool. My SDGC Seiko cocktails are both 10ATM rated, but I would be pretty reluctant to wear them swimming because the crowns are push-pull, and that makes me nervous. I'm quite sure they would be fine, but there's a peace of mind when wearing my SKX or Aevig Huldra in the wet that the crown isn't going anywhere unless I purposefully unscrew it.

Something that's easily replaceable with a push-pull crown like a Seiko 5 would be different, but the cocktails are both 1 of 500 limited models that are long out of production. Not worth the risk.

View attachment 14387709


----------



## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

kpjimmy said:


> I thought he'd wear a Nemo or Baltic...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Naw, he'd wear a Skipjack ...


----------



## huwp (Nov 10, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> If a watch is 30 ATM WR, it's supposed to be able to withstand 30 ATM of pressure, which is what exists at 300m of depth.


Pedant mode: Actually the pressure at 300m of sea water is closer to 31 ATM. approximately 1 (to be exact, 0.992) atmosphere for every 10 metres depth, plus 1 atmosphere for the atmosphere.

This means at 300m your watch has to withstand 30.75 ATM of pressure from the outside, with 1 ATM of pressure on the inside.


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Prince Namor always wears a Submariner. He is of course 'The Submariner'.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Thanks for raising this ::fascinating:: subject, doc, which you noted at the outset was about as fun as eating a sandpaper sandwich.

Boring tax










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Boy do I love the contrasting lume...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Thanks for raising this ::fascinating:: subject, doc, which you noted at the outset was about as fun as eating a sandpaper sandwich.
> 
> Boring tax
> 
> ...


I didn't raise it. I just responded to the question I was asked.

Don't hate the player, hate the plaid.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Not sure if serious or sarcastic.
> 
> Yes, I've seen them. I've been neck-deep in some. The last one made me swear to myself, up and down, that I'd never get sucked into another.
> 
> ...


And this is why we love the Doc.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



rpm1974 said:


> And this is why we love the Doc.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just sayin', I usually give the short answers first. The more people want to debate it, the longer my responses get. My answers to that WR debate are going to reach novel-length if we keep going.

Maybe people want to defer to the guy who actually MAKES watches, instead of the pseudo-experts who like to argue stupid $hlt online?

Trust me, if I'm arguing a point, I'm not guessing about what I'm saying. I went and found the info I needed before I started typing.

Your browser does have a scroll function, does it not? Feel free to skip past to the next pic, if you like. I won't be offended.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Review of the Ghost up on WWR -

https://wristwatchreview.com/2019/08/14/wrist-riding-with-the-nth-nazario-ghost/


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

The internet would be about 10% of its current content if not for...



docvail said:


> the pseudo-experts who like to argue stupid $hlt online?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



huwp said:


> Pedant mode: Actually the pressure at 300m of sea water is closer to 31 ATM. approximately 1 (to be exact, 0.992) atmosphere for every 10 metres depth, plus 1 atmosphere for the atmosphere.
> 
> This means at 300m your watch has to withstand 30.75 ATM of pressure from the outside, with 1 ATM of pressure on the inside.


Sooooo a 29.25 ATM of a pressure differential?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> The internet would be about 10% of its current content if not for...


I'd be okay with that.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Just sayin', I usually give the short answers first. The more people want to debate it, the longer my responses get. My answers to that WR debate are going to reach novel-length if we keep going.
> 
> Maybe people want to defer to the guy who actually MAKES watches, instead of the pseudo-experts who like to argue stupid $hlt online?
> 
> ...


It does, but carpal tunnel syndrome is real.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> It does, but carpal tunnel syndrome is real.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Only if your carpal tunnels are a bunch of pansies.

Mine ain't.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Only if your carpal tunnels are a bunch of pansies.
> 
> Mine ain't.


Its 2019, doc, comparing me to a flower doesn't hurt me. Pansies are beautiful.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Its 2019, doc, comparing me to a flower doesn't hurt me. Pansies are beautiful.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're the exception to the rule.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> The internet would be about 10% of its current content if not for...


This website in particular is an anthropologist's wet dream.

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You're the exception to the rule.


Yep, beautiful, and not a pansy. Got it all.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



illumidata said:


> This website in particular is an anthropologist's wet dream.
> 
> Watch Addict In Recovery


What would we call an anthropologist who's also a misanthrope? A misanthropologist? I think that would be right.

That's what I think WUS is, a place for someone who doesn't like people to come and study people he definitely won't like.

I'd love to meet someone like that at a cocktail party.

"So...you're a misanthropologist, eh? That sounds interesting. Discovered any interesting cultures you particularly dislike?"

"Yes, as a matter of fact, I did my doctoral thesis on some aboriginal pygmies found in a wild corner of Guyana. Bunch of Oompa Loompa a$$holes. But I'm always on the lookout for others."

"Lemme tell you about online watch geeks..."


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Echoes of Seinfeld here.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> What would we call an anthropologist who's also a misanthrope? A misanthropologist? I think that would be right.
> 
> That's what I think WUS is, a place for someone who doesn't like people to come and study people he definitely won't like.
> 
> ...


Dude. Every political scientist ever. You dont have to cross your damn street, much less go to Guyana (where you wont find pygmies in any event).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Dude. Every political scientist ever. You dont have to cross your damn street, much less go to Guyana (where you wont find pygmies in any event).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There's a poli-sci major on this side of my street? You sure?

Down there in the swamp, maybe, but here in the Philly 'burbs, you won't find many off campus.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Please, someone post a pic of a watch. Any damn watch!


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RmacMD said:


> Please, someone post a pic of a watch. Any damn watch!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Curious how you guys see this...

Hypothetically, your newish watch starts running erratically, very fast, or very slow. It's not magnetized. A watchmaker tells you "the balance is out". The most likely cause is that the watch took a hard knock. 

Maybe that rings a bell with you, maybe not. Maybe you're like me, bumping into every door jamb you lumber through, so it seems like something that might have happened. Maybe not. Maybe your kid or wife knocked it off your dresser, and put it back, but didn't tell you. Maybe you bumped into something and just don't remember, or maybe you didn't.

But, bottom line, you don't really know for certain whether or not it was running right when you got it, fairly recently. But now, after you've had it a while, you notice it isn't keeping good time, the watchmaker says the balance is out, and the most likely cause is that it took a hard knock, but that's all he can tell you.

How do you look at this situation? Is it like your car's engine blew up, and should be covered under warranty, or like you got a nail in your tire driving down the road, and you should take care of it yourself? 

If it's like your car's engine blew up, but it blew up after you were driving it, and you probably over-filled the oil the last time you added some (meaning, it's not the manufacturer's fault you blew the head gasket), does that make a difference?

How much does the cost make a difference to you? Plugging a hole in a tire is $25. A new tire will be $100. Rebuilding your engine because you blew the head gasket is going to cost A LOT. Are you going to pitch a fit if the dealership tells you the cost of the repair is on you, since you over-filled the oil?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

If it's running fast or slow; unless it's out of the tolerance level at a fully wound stage - I would just report it to the manufacturer and be honest with it - even if I don't know if it's dropped by a family member. My SKX was running way fast last few months ago but within tolerance. So I just brought it to the watch maker and he adjusted for me for free. No problems there... it's not the end of the world.

Here is something you don't see often..


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I remember every knock.

But, running with your scenario, I have it repaired on my dime.


----------



## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

docvail said:


> Curious how you guys see this...
> 
> Hypothetically, your newish watch starts running erratically, very fast, or very slow. It's not magnetized. A watchmaker tells you the balance wheel is out. The most likely cause is that the watch took a hard knock.
> 
> ...


This comes down to personal integrity, not cost. You know the joke "we know what you are, we're just trying to establish the price." If I'm not sure I caused something, I state that. Once we know what's wrong, then we have to decide how to fix it. I am more quality than time and cost sensitive. Here's my example.

An auto shop in town did let's call it @25 NTH Sub's worth of remedial work on my Audi S4 (why is it's own story). In doing so they made a mistake and routed a power steering hose so that it abraded, punctured, drained while I was 150 miles from home in rush hour LA traffic. By the time I could exit, the PS system was toast. Needed new pump, new hoses, new fluid, entire rack flush, a$$ load of work. Could I have insisted they cover it all. Yeah. Did I? No. The car has 146k miles. They don't owe me new parts. They owe me 146k mile parts but installing those would be stupid. We split the cost of the pump, I covered several new hoses, tubing "while they were in there", they covered the punctured hose, fluid, and labor.

Reasonable people examine the situation reasonably, and figure out a workable solution. That shop is still the only one in town I will take my cars too. Stuff happens. And it's just stuff.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I'd be honest in explaining the situation to the manufacturer as a possible warranty claim. 

If I wasn't sure about if it was running erratically when right out the box, could have been defective to begin with or damaged in transit as easily as any hard knock on my end.

But clearly state what the watchmaker diagnosed and admit that it could very well have happened post-purchase for all I know. 

Maybe the manufacturer will replace it. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll offer a discount or replacement at their unit cost. 

I'd be happy if it was replaced, gladly accept a discount on a replacement, or be slightly bummed out, but shrug it off and get on with my life if a claim was completely denied.

However. My reaction would very much depend on cost of the watch relative to what I think of as affordable vs. expensive. Also, communication with the manufacturer. Might affect the way I feel about and deal with the situation, but in the end, life is lifey -- I can't control what the manufacturer will do, but I can control how I react...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Curious how you guys see this...
> 
> Hypothetically, your newish watch starts running erratically, very fast, or very slow. It's not magnetized. A watchmaker tells you the balance wheel is out. The most likely cause is that the watch took a hard knock.
> 
> ...


That's a tricky one. The closest thing I've had happen is with my Seiko SDGC017, which I imported from Japan using Buyee. The watch arrived with a scratched ratchet wheel, which apparently happens sometimes with Seiko movements. The only reason I know about it is because of the display back. It also runs at a consistent -27s/day, out of spec, but not hugely so for the 6R21. So far I haven't bothered to do anything about it, but eventually I'm going to send it in for a service and polish. I don't know exactly how old it is, but I'm guessing 7-8 years or so, so I figure it was going to need a service sooner or later anyway, and I'm not really bothered about having to pay for it.

A new watch that arrived in a similar condition and was running similarly, I'd expect to be covered by the manufacturer. A new watch that I dropped, or banged into something, and went from running at -3s/day to -27s/day, I'd probably pay to get fixed, if I was sure I was the one that did it. If I wasn't sure, I'd probably see what the manufacturer says about warranty service.

The car analogy is a tough one. Probably the most common issue that comes up related to that is excessive oil consumption. Cars should not burn any oil. Cars often do burn oil. Fixing that can be incredibly expensive, which is why most manufactures consider up to like 1qt. per 1.5K miles to be "within spec" even though it shouldn't be, they just don't want to pay for it. On the other hand, I've heard that you can potentially cause an engine to burn oil if you're excessively hard on it during the first few thousand miles. Should the manufacturer be on the hook for that if you don't follow the recommended break-in, and do a bunch of launch control starts with your brand new BMW M5?


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

If the repair estimate was under $200, I'd chalk it up to forgetfulness and pay it. Maybe get a second opinion if there's another watchmaker around. Over $200, I'd contact the manufacturer and be excessively polite and honest. More of an inquiry about whether this is an issue they've seen before without a bump rather than insisting that it's a defect. I'd have low expectations of them offering to fix it under warranty. Best case scenario would be the manufacturer offering partial compensation for the repair, and even that would be stellar customer service. I'd also accept the first response of the manufacturer and not argue. It's a long shot, but possible payoff is worth sending one email.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Cant seem to take this off for days. 
I think its the color combinations, everything works so well together, the orange tone, black hands, black text and index borders and I guess I do prefer my lume to match on dial and bezel insert.
Oh yeah and the 4 triangles are awesome.
Still cant pronounce the name though.









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just call it the Swordfish. That _is_ what the name means.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> What would we call an anthropologist who's also a misanthrope? A misanthropologist? I think that would be right.


Sounds like my friend that was the first dual board certified analyst and therapist.










kgrier said:


> An auto shop in town did let's call it @25 NTH Sub's worth of remedial work on my Audi S4 (why is it's own story). In doing so they made a mistake and routed a power steering hose so that it abraded, punctured, drained while I was 150 miles from home in rush hour LA traffic. By the time I could exit, the PS system was toast. Needed new pump, new hoses, new fluid, entire rack flush, a$$ load of work. Could I have insisted they cover it all. Yeah. Did I? No. The car has 146k miles. They don't owe me new parts. They owe me 146k mile parts but installing those would be stupid. We split the cost of the pump, I covered several new hoses, tubing "while they were in there", they covered the punctured hose, fluid, and labor.


25 subs worth of work huh? Oh... Audi S4. Yep, this story checks out.:-d


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Went to the archives for post 15,000:


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Wow, bad photo, let's try again..


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Went to the archives for post 15,000:
> 
> View attachment 14391927


Great photo and great strap.


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

docvail said:


> Curious how you guys see this...yada yada yada


Tough one. I probably don't even contact the manufacturer. If it's something that can't just _happen_, how could it be the manufacturer's fault? Balance wheels don't just fly "out," right? I might ask the watchmaker for clarification on that. Maaaaaybe I contact the manufacturer to see if it's something they've seen before, but I don't think I'm expecting anything.

To me (and I think to manufacturers), warranty issues are things that result from manufacturing mistakes. The cause has to be present before I receive the watch, even if it didn't manifest until later. Maybe I'm a little peeved at the quality of the watch/movement if I think that normal shocks (putting it down on a dresser) can throw it out of whack, but I'm struggling to see how bad manufacturing is the cause in this case.

Reminds me, I had a similar situation with one of your watches. I discovered that one of my DevilRay bracelet links (near the watch head, so not one that I had ever removed or messed with) had come apart. Like, the outside link of the 5 links was just gone and I didn't know where it was. Looked like there was a friction pin that had let loose. (Not just a screwbar had come out.) I contacted NTH and they sent a replacement link, no questions asked. Grateful for that service, but I wonder if I did the right thing? I mean, I'm pretty sure I didn't abuse it, but I suppose I can't be 100% sure. I feel like bracelets shouldn't just come apart in the absence of extreme abuse.

Curious for when Doc chimes back in with his take. Always good to get the other perspective.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

kak1154 said:


> Tough one. I probably don't even contact the manufacturer. If it's something that can't just _happen_, how could it be the manufacturer's fault? Balance wheels don't just fly "out," right? I might ask the watchmaker for clarification on that. Maaaaaybe I contact the manufacturer to see if it's something they've seen before, but I don't think I'm expecting anything.
> 
> To me (and I think to manufacturers), warranty issues are things that result from manufacturing mistakes. The cause has to be present before I receive the watch, even if it didn't manifest until later. Maybe I'm a little peeved at the quality of the watch/movement if I think that normal shocks (putting it down on a dresser) can throw it out of whack, but I'm struggling to see how bad manufacturing is the cause in this case.
> 
> ...


Hm I wonder if this is related to what was said in the latest Doc's House Calls with Chip from Aevig (plug)

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Curious how you guys see this...
> 
> Hypothetically, your newish watch starts running erratically, very fast, or very slow. It's not magnetized. A watchmaker tells you the balance wheel is out. The most likely cause is that the watch took a hard knock.
> 
> ...


Hmmmmmmmm.

What time period qualifies as "newish"?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Re: service issue. Context is king. Here's how it comes up, no?

Watch isn't keeping good time, and still is under warranty. What do I do? I contact doc by the secret docphone, and I say, bro, what's up, this POS is not keeping good time. What's the deal?

He says, send it back, we'll take a look. If it's a warranty problem, we'll fix it and return it. If it's something you did, by dropping it or banging it or whatever, we'll charge $[x] to fix it. How's that sound?

I'll reply: sounds about right, but I don't recall banging it or anything, so take a careful look. Please contact me before charging me any money.

He'll say, okay. Or should.

When he calls back, we can discuss whatever he found, but honestly, I'd expect the watchmaker, when he finds the balance wheel out of whack, which isn't a warranty issue to people who understand these movements, to just set it aright, regulate it as necessary, and charge me some small amount.

So, the call would be, hey man, we took it apart, here's what we found, it wasn't worth taking the trouble to call you before just repairing/regulating it, so we did, and I'm hoping you're cool with a $25 charge for our time. Or $50, whatever.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Not all watches with similar WR ratings are created equal. The SKX for example may be an ISO certified 200M diver, but its crown seal is pretty rudimentary. Compare that to say, Rolex's Triplock, which can keep water out (though I'm not sure to what pressure) even with the crown unscrewed. That would kill an SKX in a swimming pool. My SDGC Seiko cocktails are both 10ATM rated, but I would be pretty reluctant to wear them swimming because the crowns are push-pull, and that makes me nervous. I'm quite sure they would be fine, but there's a peace of mind when wearing my SKX or Aevig Huldra in the wet that the crown isn't going anywhere unless I purposefully unscrew it.


I've read of people scuba diving with an unscrewed Datejust and having no water ingress. Impressive. Not an experiment I would want to undertake, but also not surprising considering _Rolex_.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'll get to the service issue thing later.

For now...

Standing in my local watchmaker's shop. Never seen a gold-dialed Oris. He tells me it's not. The dial was blue. That's how it's faded. First they go brown, then gold, apparently. He said he'll ask the owner how old it is, so we can figure out how long it takes for this to happen. I never wanted an Oris Aquis as badly as I do right now.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

Regarding warranty servicing.

I had my SKX upgraded by Jeff Macie. Among other things, he installed and regulated an NH36. For 9 months in was consistently about +2-5 sec a day. Then suddenly over the course of a month it started slowing- it was -5, then -10, then -15, then -20, a day. I emailed him to inquire on his thoughts. I know it's still in spec, but the dramatic change in performance was weird. Did I knock it, he asked. Dunno, but it definitely isn't babied- had some hard wipeouts, contacted some door jams, who knows what else? He recommend I do a little trouble shooting. I did, no change. We I agreed I send it back, with the understanding that if he determined it was something I did it was on me to repair/regulate back. What he found- "Your watch had a bad balance staff, replaced at no charge, running at COSC specs now. I usually only see low positional variances like this on NE15s." Well done. If he'd come back and said, "man, you really jacked this thing- going to cost $100 to replace the movement" I would have been fine with that, too.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I never wanted an Oris Aquis as badly as I do right now.


Man, if only you knew someone manufacturing homages who could do a small run of watches like these...


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

The Oris is a TT1 300m. They also also made 200m ones. They have no dots on the bezel. 10-12 years old I think


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'll get to the service issue thing later.
> 
> For now...
> 
> ...


Surely you jest. That is so Invictalike


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

TropiCudas


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

RmacMD said:


> Surely you jest. That is so Invictalike


I think it looks cool 

Go UCLA?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Curious how you guys see this...
> 
> Hypothetically, your newish watch starts running erratically, very fast, or very slow. It's not magnetized. A watchmaker tells you the balance wheel is out. The most likely cause is that the watch took a hard knock.
> 
> ...


I've been too busy since posting this to read every post in response, but I skimmed enough to feel I got the gist. If I'm wrong, I'll figure it out soon enough.

Here's a window into my world...

I've handled hundreds of customer support requests. Easily 99% are from a customer just asking a question or looking for help, showing no signs of aggression or bullying tactics, or any other nonsense. When we ask them to do some troubleshooting, or if we ask some questions to clarify what's going on, they do the troubleshooting, or answer the questions, and everything generally goes pretty smoothly, and quickly. We get things sorted, one way or the other, without any drama, and with minimal expense and hassle for the customer. We always try to be reasonable and fair with people.

But...there's always that 1% or less, which start out on the wrong foot, and never get on the right one. I don't know why this is, but there's a certain type of person who thinks that they can bully their way through a situation, and that's how they'll get others to jump through hoops. It's all passive-aggressive, play-the-victim, threaten with a public-shaming, never gonna buy another watch from you BS. If that's how you roll, please, do us both a favor, and do NOT buy any more of my watches.

Guys who come at us playing the tough guy role always make my spider-sense go bonkers. I can smell the cheese in the email, and I know I'm talking to a rat.

With the Miyotas, we see a handful of issues, repeatedly. I've been through each of these situations so many times that I know how they're going to turn out as soon as we start....

*1. Customer reports the watch isn't running within spec. It's gaining or losing a few too many seconds per day.*

Fix - first, show me a timegrapher report, with the average rate per day of the 4 positions specified by Miyota, with the watch tested at full power. I don't want to know from what your mobile app and personal observation over 24 hours tells you. That's not how you test accuracy.

If it's not running within spec, we'll have you send it back here to be regulated, or we'll make arrangements to have it regulated where you are, if that makes more sense (outside the USA, generally).

I can't remember a single instance of ever getting at timegrapher report or watch back in any of those situations. Not saying it's never happened, just saying, I can't remember any, so...it's extremely rare.

*2. Customer reports the watch is randomly stopping, doesn't seem to hold power.*

Fix - troubleshooting to rule out user error. More than likely, he's not hand-winding it enough, if at all, and isn't moving around enough to keep it running.

Maybe 1 in 500 to 1 in 1000 times, that's not the issue, it's actually a bad movement, and we'll replace it. Very often, when it's a bad movement, the watch just stops running altogether, so that's an easy one to diagnose.

If it's a bad movement, they ALWAYS seem to present themselves very soon after delivery. I had ONE (1) guy who told me he had the watch unopened in a box for a few months, and I had no reason not to believe him, because he did in fact have a bad movement. Nothing in his story sounded fishy to me.

*3. Customer reports the watch is stopping at the same time, like 1:06.*

Fix - More than likely, one or more hands has gone out of plane. The seconds hand could be getting caught against the crystal, or the minute hand. Or, the minute hand could be getting caught against the hour. If you just got the watch, it probably got dropped in shipping, which isn't really "our fault", but shouldn't be a problem for you, so we'll get it sorted for you, without any hassle.

If you've had the watch for any length of time, c'mon, you know how it happened. Don't act like it's a warranty repair. The watch got dropped, sometime AFTER delivery, and the hands need to be reset. Take it to a watchmaker, and pay him $25 to reset the hands, or whatever he charges. We don't need to be involved.

*4. Customer reports the watch is running REALLY fast, minutes per day.*

Fix - 99% of the time, it's been magnetized, which isn't a warranty issue. Have it demagnetized (many watchmakers won't even charge to do this), buy a $10 degausser machine online, or drive to a store with one of those demag pads at checkout, plop the watch on there for a few seconds, and move on with your life.

1% of the time, the watch took a hard knock, and the balance was affected. I'll come back to this.

*5. Customer reports the watch is running REALLY slow, minutes per day.*

Fix - almost certainly, the watch was dropped or took a hard knock, and the balance was affected. The question is - when?

*You see where this is going...*

I'm 100% certain the watch was running well when we shipped it. If it isn't running well when it's delivered, even if what happened in transit isn't our fault, we'll get it sorted, because it certainly isn't YOUR fault that Mr Postman chucked it across your garden like a frisbee. If it got dropped, we'll have you send it back here for a repair or replacement. If it's just magnetized, take care of it there, or at least try to, so we can rule that out before we move on to next steps.

But, weeks or months later, and you're just now reporting that it's not running well? I need to know a little more. Deflecting our questions, or refusing to cooperate with the troubleshooting is only going to raise my suspicion about you. If you think you're going to overcome us with belligerence, trust me, you won't. It just drags the process out, and creates needless drama. It certainly doesn't motivate me to go above and beyond to help.

If the balance is out, it's a $25 fix, maybe $50, but that's practically highway robbery. There's really no need for drama, no matter what the fact-set.

Seriously, even if it's been 6 months, and you come right out and tell me you dropped it, I'll still help you out, gladly. I want you to send it back here, because I'd rather have my guy fix it, so I know it'll be done right, than leave you to your own devices, and Harry Hamfist the watchmaker botches the job. Now we're arguing over a new movement instead of a 5 minute balance spring adjustment.

If you ship it back to us (in the USA), we'll sort it out, no cost to you, no problem. Outside the USA, we'll try to arrange the same thing, without voiding your warranty. Just work with us, is all we ask. There's a solution to be had, I assure you, if you'll just cooperate. I don't want to chance international shipping, the package getting lost or dinged with new customs charges, if we can arrange to have the work done for you locally.

Even if the warranty is expired, I don't care - I had a guy a few months back whose warranty was expired, reporting that the watch was randomly stopping. He angrily insisted we should fix it, even though the warranty was expired. He refused to answer questions or cooperate with troubleshooting. I knew exactly how things would turn out. I was certain he abused it somehow, and just didn't want to be responsible. Sure enough...

He happens to be local to me. I told him to take it into our local shop (literally, we live five minutes away from each other), to see what's up. I told him, and the watchmaker, that if it needed a new movement, I'd provide one. It would have been the first time I heard of a 9015 going bad within only a few years. Turns out, the hands were tripping over each other (because the watch was dropped or banged into something) - 5 minute repair job, in and out for $15. No drama needed, but I got some drama anyway.

All that for 5 minutes and $15. What was the point?

You drive off the lot in a new car, and find a screw in your tire when you get home, you don't know if it was there when you bought the car, you picked it up in your own driveway, or somewhere in between. Don't expect the dealership to fix it for you if you go in there screaming about it.

But, if you go in with the right attitude, and explain you don't know what happened, the odds of them helping you out are greatly improved. They want you to be happy with the new car purchase, and the $25 cost of a tire plug is a small investment to be made in customer loyalty. Don't go off ranting about the clutter in their lot, or threatening to run to the BBB. That's some late-night, House of Waffles, drunken frat boy, abuse the waitress BS.

Just watch the attitude, is all I'm saying.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kak1154 said:


> Tough one. I probably don't even contact the manufacturer. If it's something that can't just _happen_, how could it be the manufacturer's fault? Balance wheels don't just fly "out," right? I might ask the watchmaker for clarification on that. Maaaaaybe I contact the manufacturer to see if it's something they've seen before, but I don't think I'm expecting anything.
> 
> To me (and I think to manufacturers), warranty issues are things that result from manufacturing mistakes. The cause has to be present before I receive the watch, even if it didn't manifest until later. Maybe I'm a little peeved at the quality of the watch/movement if I think that normal shocks (putting it down on a dresser) can throw it out of whack, but I'm struggling to see how bad manufacturing is the cause in this case.
> 
> ...


*Re - "the balance is out"....*

That's sort of a short-hand term. The balance doesn't literally come out. I'm not a watchmaker, and never really *needed* to understand precisely what that means, but the gist of it (as I understand it) is that the tail-end of the balance spring pops out and gets hung up on the regulator. The watchmaker just needs to get it off the regulator and back into place. The watch will run really fast or really slow until that happens.

*Re - the DR link...*

You did the right thing. Bracelet links shouldn't be self-destructing.

We had a few people report that with the DR bracelet. It seems that the friction pins holding the links together either weren't to spec (just on those that came out), or not fully tapped in, or whatever. It's no big deal. We replaced the links for those who brought it to our attention. Because the bracelet tapers, we try to figure out EXACTLY which link came apart, so we replace it with that same link in the chain, if we can.

*Re - no one asked, but...*

We've made something like 3,000 NTH Subs to this point. I'd have to count to know the exact number, but that's close enough. We had maybe 6 people report broken clasps. The friction pin holding the safety catch on, or one of the other friction pins - the head just shears off. At first, I tried to just replace the pin, but we couldn't figure out the right size, so my vendor just sent us some replacement clasps, and we were sending those out to people.

I just spoke to Dan, and he tells me our latest parts resupply had friction pin sets in with the other parts, so now we have those too.

The bracelets and clasps shouldn't just break. If you manage to actually break a solid steel part, like the actual link itself, then, A) you're the hulk, and B) I don't think I'd fix that under warranty, but if you manage to break some small piece of hardware in an assembly (like the links or clasp), yeah, we can sort that out, one way or the other, no big deal.

*Re - and while I'm here...*

Every so often, someone will email to ask (or complain) about bracelet link screws coming loose. Again, the attitude they display will often determine the response they get.

Like I said in a recent post, bracelet screws are not self-tapping. Google "watch bracelet screws coming loose", and tell me you don't find a dozen discussions, all of which with at least a dozen guys saying bracelet screws need thread-locker. I can't tell you how many guys have wanted to argue that point with me. It's at least one every few months.

We ship the Subs with two (2) extra links (and screws) in the box. And, if you had a screw back out, I *KNOW* you sized the bracelet, meaning you more than likely removed links. But you should see how many requests we get for replacement screws from guys who never used any thread-locker, and want to play the "defect" card.

It's like - Bro, there were two (2) extra in the case, and you took one or more out. Use one of those. GTFOutta here. I'm not putting a screw in the mail to you, Boner.

I had a woman email to complain her husband's watch, a wedding gift she gave to him, flew off his wrist when a screw came loose, and suffered case damage. Okay, that's not OUR FAULT, but...I had her send it back here, and I paid to have the case refinished. I managed the logistics of that job personally. We got it back to 95% of BNIB condition, best we could do. We paid to ship it back to her. She never thanked me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Man, if only you knew someone manufacturing homages who could do a small run of watches like these...


I'm picking up what you're putting down...

How about that black date wheel under gold dial though?

It's like Bizarro-gilt.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> The Oris is a TT1 300m. They also also made 200m ones. They have no dots on the bezel. 10-12 years old I think


I posted the same pic and comment to the Diver's Watches group on FB. Someone made the same spot, pretty quickly. I think I read "less than 20" years old, FWIW.

Funny thing - a lot of guys calling BS.

I mean...why would I? Why would my watchmaker?

Weird how many guys want to call BS before stopping to think about something. Maybe Oris fanboys, or whatever, but...I wasn't ragging on Oris. I actually LIKED how it looked. Way more than any black or blue Oris Aquis I've seen.

This isn't my in-house NTH watchmaker. This is the local, Swiss WOSTEP, authorized Rolex/Omega guy. His shop is right across from my PO box, so I stop in every so often just to shoot the $hlt with him. He always has something cool to show me, like that not-really-fugazi alarm watch a few months back, that Hamiltion with the micro-rotor movement, etc.

He also had this there on his bench, from his personal collection, a 1970 Speedy MK whatever on a stingray strap.









The Oris owner told him the dial was originally blue, like the bezel, which he wanted replaced (the insert, not the dial, AFAIK). Peter is friendly with the regional Oris guy, so he can get the part(s) needed.

How is this some sort of scandalous story that makes people online skeptical?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Surely you jest. That is so Invictalike


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I'm picking up what you're putting down...
> 
> How about that black date wheel under gold dial though?
> 
> It's like Bizarro-gilt.


It's kinda funky. Maybe even in a good way. If I was going more conservative, probably a white date wheel and a stainless/silver frame around the window would be more matchy-matchy with the indexes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The story behind the hypothetical...

EDIT - WHAT FOLLOWS IS A SUMMARY, PARAPHRASING THE GIST OF WHAT WAS SAID, NOT DIRECT QUOTES. TRUST ME WHEN I SAY, WE HANDLED THIS AS PROFESSIONALLY AS POSSIBLE, AND WERE PATIENT AS WE COULD BE.

The last 24 hours, I've been dealing with one of the <1% club. 

He bought the watch from the WatchDrobe in Hong Kong, so I have no record of the sale date. He's reporting it running very fast, and that his local watchmaker (in Bangkok, Thailand) says it's not magnetized, so more than likely the balance is out, and he's getting on a plane to Vietnam as he types this, so...I dunno, I guess we need to have it all sorted before he lands, or something.

I shipped that watch to Hong Kong in November of last year. This is August. I don't know when the watch was purchased, or when the guy noticed it wasn't running right. He just reported that he got it "recently".

So....was it running right when the store got it? Was it running right when he got it? I have no idea. 

The guy's original email to us was snarky. Not a good start. But, Julie responded, quickly, and courteously, disregarding the snark. She asked him to first rule out that the watch was magnetized, and to let us know if that didn't get it sorted, which he did.

His second, post-demagnetization message showed an uptick in aggression, complaining about having to pay for a new watch to be repaired. We weren't even there yet. We never said anything about next steps. We were still at stage "let us know if it isn't magnetized."

So, now I get involved, because this is above Julie's pay-grade. I explain - "We regulate all the watches to well within spec before we ship. We can't help what happens in shipping. Was it running well when you received it? Did you contact the store where you got it, when you discovered it wasn't keeping good time?"

Again, I don't know when the watch was purchased. It could have been months ago. It could have been purchased in-store or by mail. He got it from Hong Kong, but he's in Thailand, getting on a plane to Vietnam. He could just be jerking my chain, and there is no watch. It's 12 hours ahead in Asia, so we're dealing with a communication delay.

There's a card that comes with every watch: "If there's any problem, contact THE SELLER immediately." Work with me here, will ya, pal?

Just two questions, no statement from us about what happens next. Was it running right before, and did you contact the store? That's all I want to know at this point, so I can figure out what's going on.

He goes off, like, completely off - saying we're not taking responsibility, invoking Pavlov (?), shame on us, it would be refreshing to have us just take care of it, blah, blah, blah.

By the way, the store owner, Jason, is getting copied on all of this. 

Now, it's go time.

I explain - 1) What the hell are you going on about? I asked 2 questions; didn't make any statements. You still haven't answered either of them. 2) If you want my help, drop the attitude, and show some basic courtesy, because I'm trying to help. 3) This is an easy and cheap fix. Quit pitching a fit, answer the questions I have, and we'll figure out how to get it sorted. Or, 4) you can keep up with the nonsense, play the victim role, and I can tell you to go piss up a pole.

And, then the store owner responds to me - yes, the guy did contact him, and he too suggested it was likely magnetized, but for certain, the watch was well-packaged for shipping, so we shouldn't be dealing with a case of balance-got-knocked-out-in-transit. Okay, I say, no problem, let me handle it from here. No reason for you to have to deal with this guy, if he's already taking a big steaming dump in my inbox. 

It kind of went on like that. Apparently Jason had already told him to send it back to him by that point, prompting Mr. Congeniality to change tactics, and claim he was doing me a courtesy by letting me know about the problems in our logistics (or something), and it was always his plan to send it back to Hong Kong (conveniently ignoring the fact he started out talking about his guy in Bangkok fixing it, and whining about having to spend money on it). Now he's playing the "I'm convinced you have emotional problems, Chris" card. 

Yeah, *I've* got emotional problems. Were you present for this whole exchange, or was I talking to someone else?

You guys don't even know how much time this sort of thing can suck up. These nitwits never let it go, or take responsibility for their own words and actions. We'll be a dozen emails deep before I tell them we're done. I try to be nice. I try to be helpful. But sometimes, they just won't have it, and so, okay, if you won't have nice, you'll get not-nice.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Went to the archives for post 15,000:
> 
> View attachment 14391927


Sell me that strap. I know it's used too, so I expect a good deal.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

CMFord said:


> uvalaw2005 said:
> 
> 
> > Went to the archives for post 15,000:
> ...


Hold on a moment while I get in my time machine to travel back to 2014.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Hold on a moment while I get in my time machine to travel back to 2014.


If you are doing it right, he shouldn't have to hold on at all. That's the bonus of time travel. You can go late, but arrive early.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Hold on a moment while I get in my time machine to travel back to 2014.


OK. I'll buy the time machine from you when you're bored with it - again, I expect a great price.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMFord said:


> OK. I'll buy the time machine from you when you're bored with it - again, I expect a great price.


I mean...it is a USED time machine.

How would the condition be rated on the TZ ("Time Zone") scale? Don't gimme none of that "mint" nonsense, either. We want a NUMBER, pal, and it better be accurate.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

This thread just caught a bad case of tardis.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> This thread just caught a bad case of tardis.


A quick shot in the tuchus and it'll be sound as the pound (pre-Brexit).


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

People that are full of unreal expectations are probably super fun at the CS kiosk in the grocery store... “this food wasn’t eaten when I bought it last month!!!”



FULL Tardis... 


Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

RmacMD said:


> Surely you jest. That is so Invictalike


....except for the reasonable proportions, decent build quality, and expectation that it's actually 300M capable like it says on the tin.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

CMA22inc said:


> This thread just caught a bad case of tardis.


I got tardis once, but penicillin took care of it.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> *1. Customer reports the watch isn't running within spec. It's gaining or losing a few too many seconds per day.*
> 
> Fix - first, show me a timegrapher report, with the average rate per day of the 4 positions specified by Miyota, with the watch tested at full power. I don't want to know from what your mobile app and personal observation over 24 hours tells you. That's not how you test accuracy.
> 
> ...


_?

You think ppl just have random timegraphers lying around their house?

Doc, that's completely unreasonable as a response to a request for servicing.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Happy Friday guys!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> _?
> 
> You think ppl just have random timegraphers lying around their house?
> 
> Doc, that's completely unreasonable as a response to a request for servicing.


Actually, no, I don't, and no, it isn't.

Every time someone reports their watch isn't running within spec, they're reporting on-the-wrist/off-the-wrist performance over 24 hours, with no accounting for power reserve or posture. Meaning, they may be starting from low power, where isochronism has an effect, or not taking a true average, the way the manufacturer does (and we do).

That's NOT how you test accuracy. The spec is an average of four specific (of six possible) positions, tested within 10 minutes to 1 hour of full wind, with a limit on the range of posture difference. You don't test on/off the wrist over 24 hours. That's not how this works.

I've had watches sent back to us, and found nothing at all wrong with them. I'm not doing that any more.

You're *CONVINCED* the watch isn't running within spec? Okay, prove it, with a timegrapher.

Don't have a timegrapher? Okay, take it to a watchmaker. Have him put it on a timegrapher, and send us the report. I've never heard of a watchmaker charging much, if anything, to put a watch on a timegrapher to determine accuracy.

If you want to make a stink about it, I'll make you a bet. Give me the name, number, and email for the watchmaker you plan to take it to. If it's not within spec, I'll pay for the test. If it is, you pay me double.

I've sold over 5,000 watches. Not including the $hlt-show that was the Seagull ST1940 in the Riccardo, not one - NOT A SINGLE ONE - has ever come back running out of spec. It's NEVER happened. Ever.

Look at it from my perspective.

90% of my customers are enthusiasts, with multiple-piece collections. You're rotating them. Even if your watch gains or loses a full minute over 24 hours, you're unlikely to suffer any adverse consequences as a result, when you're rotating through a half-dozen pieces. It's got a 42 hour power reserve. It's stopped dead by the time you get back to it, so you have to reset it. You're unlikely to be accumulating a huge variation for days on end.

Even if you are...it's a MECHANICAL watch. You know they're not as accurate as quartz.

I don't sell the watches as being the ultimate in accuracy. We don't advertise COSC spec. I only guarantee the manufacturer's spec. The fact that we regulate to 1/2 of spec - we don't advertise that. I'm not selling it to anyone as a feature, or thumping my chest about it. We do that to make sure we're delivering a good product, and to avoid complaints from accuracy nuts - about watches running within spec, but not even better than spec.

Eff it, I say, we'll just regulate them all to make sure no one can complain about their watch being 10 seconds UNDER the spec, which we've had people do. God forbid your $600 watch doesn't run within 15 s/d.

What happens if the watch - which is actually running within spec - gets sent back here, but lost on the way? You pitch a fit, and expect me to replace it, because it wouldn't have been lost in shipping if you hadn't needed to send it back, so, it's our fault.

What happens if we find nothing wrong with it? Waste of time, and you'll want to argue about it. Obviously, you'd never make a mistake in observation. We must be trying to pull a fast one, right?

What happens if it gets lost on the way back to you? You pitch a fit, and expect us to replace it. It's not your fault it got lost, right? Now I have to give you a new watch, to replace the one which never should have come back here in the first place.

What happens if you get it back, and all of a sudden you notice the scratches on the case you sent us, which of course, was "mint" when you sent it, right? I can't wait to read that WUS thread. "Doc damaged my watch went I sent it in for regulating". Just call the trolls now, and tell them to make ready for a parade.

I call BS. Your mobile app and personal observations over 24 hours is NOT how to test accuracy. You know what is? Yeah, it's called a timegrapher.

Send me a timegrapher report showing that it's not within spec, we'll have you send it back here to be regulated. Until I see a timegrapher report, I'm not even entertaining the accuracy discussion.

How many have I seen, in 6 years, and dozens of guys claiming the watch wasn't running within spec?

None. Zero. Zilch. Zip. Nada. Goose egg.

Tell me I'm completely unreasonable?

I don't think so.


----------



## velvet396 (Dec 11, 2013)

velvet396 said:


> Probably going to sell my blue Riccardo. Can't believe it's been six years!! It's just not getting time in the rotation, but I'll probably kick myself later because damn does that blue & red just pop.


6 weeks of mulling it over and it's up in the FS section. End of an era. Still ticking great, you made a hell of a first watch, doc.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Sidebar regarding my own thoughts about accuracy:
I routinely wear about a half-dozen watches. The only time I ever had one grossly inaccurate, it was magnetized. No earthly idea how they get that way, but it's happened several times. I finally bought one of those $10 demagnitizers on the Bay, and it REALLY works. 15 second fix.

Along those lines, I'd rather have a watch run fast than slow. I had my local watch guy regulate a couple slow ones (they weren't bad, but enough it annoyed me). $25 bucks. Done.

Last thought: I couldn't bring myself to buy a timegrapher, as my anecdotal observations regarding daily accuracy were typically good enough for me. But a buyer for one of my watches insisted. I found a really good app in the Apple store, cost me around $5-10 I think, that was acceptable to him. Works phenomenally well in that regard. Only issue with that: Apple now requires those wireless earbuds, and so I use my older iPad with a corded mic. Poor-mans timegrapher...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Moar pix fer TGIF









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Sidebar regarding my own thoughts about accuracy:
> I routinely wear about a half-dozen watches. The only time I ever had one grossly inaccurate, it was magnetized. No earthly idea how they get that way, but it's happened several times. I finally bought one of those $10 demagnitizers on the Bay, and it REALLY works. 15 second fix.
> 
> Along those lines, I'd rather have a watch run fast than slow. I had my local watch guy regulate a couple slow ones (they weren't bad, but enough it annoyed me). $25 bucks. Done.
> ...


I ain't saying we shouldn't be held to our own published standards. I'm just saying - we want to make sure we're NOT meeting that standard before we start down that return-for-regulation road.

In my experience, the guys complaining about being a few seconds out of spec have always been wrong about it, and the watch wasn't, when tested the correct way. Maybe they were exaggerating the variance in their communications to me, rather than making a mistake in their observation and testing. I can't say.

All I can tell you guys is we've never heard back from anyone after asking them to have one tested on a timegrapher. And why wouldn't we? Wouldn't you want to know something was actually wrong with your car before taking it in for repair?

You can get a timegrapher from one of those Asian shopping sites for not much more than $100. They're the same thing you see selling on Amazon for $200+. Honestly, I think it's a bad idea for most WIS to own one, because it's like a macro lens. If you own one, you'll use it, and inevitably, you'll find something that annoys you, and "can't be unseen".

Buy a macro lens, become obsessed with the imperfections you can't see with the naked eye. Buy a timegrapher, become obsessed with performance you'd never notice otherwise.

But, if you're an accuracy nut, and you want to play that game, get one. Learn to use it properly. There's nothing complicated about making a "timegrapher report". I'd accept an email from a guy giving me the rate in the four positions Miyota specifies. I'll do the math myself.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment NSlRrszE.jpeg


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I use a loupe on occasion at work. I have never looked at a watch with it. No need in my life for a timegrapher. I'd need to be making or fixing watches for other people to justify owning one.

I get a kick out of people who demand to know the accuracy of a watch when buying. As a seller, without access to a timegrapher, best I can do is describe a comparison to time.gov vs. time the watch is keeping, over days or probably a week, max.

In this case, the Scorpene was running +20sec over the course of a week or so, including a couple days where it was in the watch box for 24hrs, while I wore other watches. That's plenty good enough for me, and if that kind of real life observation was not good enough for a potential buyer, I probably wouldn't want to sell them anything, anyway. As a private seller, I have the luxury of being able to tell an overly picky buyer to piss up a rope, something I know Doc does not have, as a business, selling to the general public...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I use a loupe on occasion at work. I have never looked at a watch with it. No need in my life for a timegrapher. I'd need to be making or fixing watches for other people to justify owning one.
> 
> I get a kick out of people who demand to know the accuracy of a watch when buying. As a seller, without access to a timegrapher, best I can do is describe a comparison to time.gov vs. time the watch is keeping, over days or probably a week, max.
> 
> In this case, the Scorpene was running +20sec over the course of a week or so, including a couple days where it was in the watch box for 24hrs, while I wore other watches. That's plenty good enough for me, and if that kind of real life observation was not good enough for a potential buyer, I probably wouldn't want to sell them anything, anyway. As a private seller, I have the luxury of being able to tell an overly picky buyer to piss up a rope, something I know Doc does not have, as a business, selling to the general public...


I think the problem is all the disconnects which exist in people's thinking about specs vs actual performance vs observed performance vs practical application in the real world.

"Specs" - basically just the WORST the watch should run. And yet, many people assume that's how they all run, and will often cite those numbers as support for "muh Switz". Those numbers are just the boundaries of the acceptable range, not necessarily a measure of actual performance.

"Actual performance" - We test every piece (the RIGHT way) in final QC. The vast majority are running MUCH better than spec when we get them from our vendor. It's actually a very small percentage that we open up and regulate to our own internal standard of 1/2 of spec. And those end up being the ones that run pretty close to 0 s/d, because Dan's an unrepentant perfectionist when it comes to mechanical gizmos.

"Observed performance" - Pretty self-explanatory. You may find that your watch runs +/- 2 secs/day or that it's +/- 20 secs per week, or whatever. That may or may not be identical to the actual performance, when we'd test it using the prescribed method (on a timegrapher, at full power, in 4 specific positions). It's like car manufacturers' fuel efficiency projections versus actual mileage. Every car review I read has a notation that the MFG spec is X mpg, but the reviewers actually found Y mpg. Your mileage may vary (depending on your use and habits).

"Practical application" - Seriously, if you're grinding your gears over the accuracy in a MECHANICAL watch, buy quartz, Poindexter. Missed your morning train, and were late for work? That's not your watch's fault, or ours. You shouldn't be trying to time your morning commute down to the second.

In the real world, especially for WIS who rotate through multiple pieces each week, you're unlikely to NEED a watch that runs more accurately than DOUBLE the manufacturer's spec, nor would most WIS even notice the difference. It's just another thing WIS geek out over online, because online WIS gonna do what online WIS do, and it's a self-reinforcing cycle.

If you want COSC performance, guaranteed, crack open your wallet and pay for a COSC watch. Don't break my balls about your 9015 running +/- 12 seconds per day (when half the day is you sitting at your desk, and the other is the watch sitting on the nightstand), just because you saw some guy online bragging about how his is +/- 2 secs per day. Have some perspective.


----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

Getting this technical, could we perhaps step it up a notch and start talking about sample mean vs population mean, confidence intervals and the accuracy of timegraphers in general?


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I ain't saying we shouldn't be held to our own published standards. I'm just saying - we want to make sure we're NOT meeting that standard before we start down that return-for-regulation road.


I'm not disagreeing with you. In my own experience, most everything I've bought has been between 0 to +12 sec/day on the wrist. When I HAVE noticed something askew, it has typically been magnetized. I like stuff to be "close" to accurate, and only rarely have I noticed something really out-of-whack. Hence my reluctance to buy a "real" timegrapher. The app works fine for me, and basically does the same thing: it listens to the watch. There's no real magic to a time-grapher, they just count ticks.

And I do agree about COSC. If that's what one is after, one must pay the diff...

My most expensive piece, fancy-brand COSC needed a service and got a regulation as part of that. Watchmaker swore he got it at +1 sec/day. Maybe on the timegrapher, but not on the wrist. It's running about -3. Sigh. I just set it a minute fast, and I'm good for about three weeks.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Release date for the Amphion Commando has apparently been pushed back from today to Aug.31 …


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

"sample mean vs population mean, confidence intervals" puts the conversation way past the realm of my comprehension.
Plus I had to goggle "Tardis" yesterday. So confused!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Release date for the Amphion Commando has apparently been pushed back from today to Aug.31 &#8230;


Yeah, sorry about that. Predicting exact ready-by dates is still an imperfect science, I'm afraid.

Two of the three new models are on their way to us as I type this. I'm told to expect the third to be a week behind those two. Depending on how QC goes, we should hopefully have them all ready for sale before the end of the month, or very soon after.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you. In my own experience, most everything I've bought has been between 0 to +12 sec/day on the wrist. When I HAVE noticed something askew, it has typically been magnetized. I like stuff to be "close" to accurate, and only rarely have I noticed something really out-of-whack. Hence my reluctance to buy a "real" timegrapher. The app works fine for me, and basically does the same thing: it listens to the watch. There's no real magic to a time-grapher, they just count ticks.
> 
> And I do agree about COSC. If that's what one is after, one must pay the diff...
> 
> My most expensive piece, fancy-brand COSC needed a service and got a regulation as part of that. Watchmaker swore he got it at +1 sec/day. Maybe on the timegrapher, but not on the wrist. It's running about -3. Sigh. I just set it a minute fast, and I'm good for about three weeks.


Your problem is you're too normal to be here.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Your problem is you're too normal to be here.


Yeah, I don't really like watches. I'm just here for the funny stuff.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> Yeah, I don't really like watches. I'm just here for the funny stuff.


Nothing funny about timegrapher discussion. Zilch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

hwa said:


> Nothing funny about timegrapher discussion. Zilch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, but the follow up was funny. So, there's that. And you can be pretty amusing with a couple of beers in you...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


> Your problem is you're too normal to be here.


I think most of us are normal, or too normal. It's just those 80 or 100 weirdos that skew the conversation.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Anywayz, hope that you all have a great weekend.........









Cheers,

Alan


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Have a great weekend guys!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I may be in the extreme minority of watch obsessed weirdos, but accuracy really isn't something I worry about. I don't even bother to use the hacking seconds of any of my watches when I set them. I check the time on the phone or computer, and if it's 30s+ past the minute, I nudge the minute hand closer to the next minute. <30 seconds, I nudge it closer to the prior minute. Wherever the second hand stops is where it stops - I don't care. I tried one of those timing apps once, and measured my SKX at +3 on wrist. Cool. If it was +25, also cool. It's just not important. I've never even bothered to check my Aevig or any of the others I've had which are now sold. The only reason I tested the SDGC017 was because of that scratched ratchet wheel, to make sure there wasn't something seriously wrong with it.

I was a little worried when my brand new (to me) SDGC009 showed up earlier this week with the day hand in-between two days of the week, and the date hand at a normal position. Advancing the hands a full 24 hours moved the day hand to in-between the next two days. Ruh-roh. Then I remembered that the day hand advances two positions during a date change, first to half around midnight, and to full around 12:30. Moved it up a half click, all good, problem solved, Houston. I haven't bothered to test its actual accuracy. It's been on my wrist since it came in the mail, and seems to have lost ~1 minute since Tuesday. Good enough.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Very odd. In all the variations of NTH watches, I've not had any significant deviations in timekeeping. In fact, as I wear my Odin blue, it's spot on, compared to my computer's time. So I'm not worried or complaining.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> ...
> 
> Along those lines, I'd rather have a watch run fast than slow. I had my local watch guy regulate a couple slow ones (they weren't bad, but enough it annoyed me). $25 bucks. Done.
> 
> ...


100% agree. If you wear a slightly fast watch for an extended number of days, it is so easy to pull the crown out for a few seconds every few days to sync back up.


----------



## fiskadoro (Sep 2, 2015)

NTH Antilles.

Great vintage vibe to this one with that cool champagne dial and super-compressor stylings. The beads of rice bracelet is a nice touch. The concept of an easily adjustable clasp on the fly was awesome, but the execution wasn't the best as the clasp feels a bit too thick. Still love it though!


----------



## rneiman3 (May 17, 2019)

Love that Super Compressor-like case!!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> I may be in the extreme minority of watch obsessed weirdos, but accuracy really isn't something I worry about. I don't even bother to use the hacking seconds of any of my watches when I set them. I check the time on the phone or computer, and if it's 30s+ past the minute, I nudge the minute hand closer to the next minute. <30 seconds, I nudge it closer to the prior minute. Wherever the second hand stops is where it stops - I don't care. I tried one of those timing apps once, and measured my SKX at +3 on wrist. Cool. If it was +25, also cool. It's just not important. I've never even bothered to check my Aevig or any of the others I've had which are now sold. The only reason I tested the SDGC017 was because of that scratched ratchet wheel, to make sure there wasn't something seriously wrong with it.
> 
> I was a little worried when my brand new (to me) SDGC009 showed up earlier this week with the day hand in-between two days of the week, and the date hand at a normal position. Advancing the hands a full 24 hours moved the day hand to in-between the next two days. Ruh-roh. Then I remembered that the day hand advances two positions during a date change, first to half around midnight, and to full around 12:30. Moved it up a half click, all good, problem solved, Houston. I haven't bothered to test its actual accuracy. It's been on my wrist since it came in the mail, and seems to have lost ~1 minute since Tuesday. Good enough.
> 
> View attachment 14396949


You're an animal! 

When I got an SKX as my first automatic, non-hacking didn't bother me at all. When I wear it now, it still doesn't really bother me. But if a movement hacks, I can't imagine not setting it exactly.

Your way is probably better. Reminds me of my attitude about cars. I've always been anal about my cars. Kids forbidden to eat in the car for fear of crumbs and spills. Always park defensively - end spots, away from cars of obviously careless drivers, etc. It is so liberating to drive a rental and park anywhere, etc. that I've wondered if I'm making life more complicated than it should be. I think the only sensible course forward is a collection of cars. A dress car, a sports car, a beater car.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Love the skipjack. It's like a brother to the Odin.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fiskadoro said:


> NTH Antilles.
> 
> Great vintage vibe to this one with that cool champagne dial and super-compressor stylings. The beads of rice bracelet is a nice touch. The concept of an easily adjustable clasp on the fly was awesome, but the execution wasn't the best as the clasp feels a bit too thick. Still love it though!
> 
> View attachment 14397723


Nice pic, Marty, and nice IG feed. I just followed you. Glad you like the Antilles.

I wore my Azores a few times so far this month, and I can't argue the point about the clasp.

FWIW, and for whoever cares to know the thought process and challenges...

By the time we started working on the Tropics, we'd received enough negative feedback about the clasp we'd been using on the NTH Subs (and all the with-bracelet Lew & Huey models before the NTH Subs) that I knew we needed to come up with something better for the Tropics.

I considered a basic butterfly clasp, which I thought might suit the dressier vibe of the Tropics, particularly the Antilles versions, but I feared using it. I didn't feel like I'd observed enough WIS discussion of them to know how that would be received, especially given that the Tropics, while dressier, are still dive watches, and butterfly clasps don't seem to be viewed as favorably on dive watches.

At the same time, as we were refining the design, we were realizing that the beads-of-rice bracelet, being more complicated and expensive to produce than the Subs' 3-link Oyster, would make the Tropics more expensive. I figured the higher the price, the more people would complain about a clasp that wasn't up to snuff, the higher the expectation that the clasp would be something a bit more "special", whatever that might mean.

I liked the idea of an expansion clasp, and my primary vendor told me that they'd designed their own version of one, with a stepped outer surface (allowing us to do a mix of finishes), and with spring-bar attachment on both sides, whereas most expansion clasps at the time had fixed attachment on one end. The advantage there is that the clasp can be removed / replaced.

It seemed like a good solution on paper, but when I got the prototypes, I immediately noticed the big difference between its thickness and the links' thickness. Back when we'd been discussing clasp options with some in our inner circle, there was some time spent talking about "clasp gap" - the unsightly void between thin links and thick clasps.









Often, that gap is present with push-button clasps, rather than more simple friction-shut clasps, because the push-button mechanism needs some additional space to work. But regardless, I knew this needed to be addressed.

The challenge is that simply making the bracelet thicker isn't a good solution. Bracelet link thickness is usually about 25% of case thickness. More or less than that just doesn't look or feel right, it seems. The Tropics case is just 12mm thick, so we didn't want to go much over 3mm on the links, whereas I think the clasp is close to 7mm.

The solution we came up with was to make a change for production. One of my friends showed me his Hanhart, which had a similarly thick expansion clasp, but links on either side which were wedge-shaped, creating a smoother, tapering transition from links to clasp.









So, we decided to do something similar, making the links on either side of the clasp wedge-shaped. What neither I nor my vendor realized was that the increased end-height I'd specified for those links would prevent anyone from using the micro-adjustments in the clasp. There's a little lip hidden on the underside of the clasp, and the revised links butt up against it when you try to slide them inward.

It never even occurred to me that an expansion clasp would have micro-adjustments, much less that anyone would want to use them. I mean, it's an EXPANSION clasp. It expands. Why screw around with the micro-adjustments?

I remember getting a few complaints from guys who wanted to use the micro-adjustments. One destroyed his clasp trying to modify it, and we supplied him with a new one.

But, more often, we heard complaints just about how thick it is, as well as the sharp corners. I think we were the first brand to use that particular clasp, or at least, one of the first, so it hadn't yet gone through any revisions based on user feedback.

I think it's a better match for the DevilRay, which has a thicker case, and thus thicker links. But still, people often ask me about alternative aftermarket clasps which might fit.

It's clear to me now that although the clasp is a good quality component, it's easily the single biggest source of complaints on both models. The whole exercise taught me the hazards involved when you put the effort into giving people what they seem to want, rather than what might otherwise seem "right".

By the time we were delivering the DevilRay, we were nearing the end of the Subs 1.0 production run, with the old bracelet and clasp. I wanted to make some improvements to both for the Sub, but using that expansion clasp again was out of the question.

We went back to the drawing board. I decided to avoid expansion clasps altogether. They're all thicker than a basic double-locking folder, plus, they add a lot of cost, and my experience/observation is that there just aren't enough people who place enough value on them to rationalize including them with the lower-priced Subs. The Subs are NTH's bread-and-butter, so they need to be our most accessible model, in terms of pricing.

If we were to make another run of the Tropics, I think I'd be more likely to use a basic butterfly, or keep the same clasp we're currently using on the Subs. I'd probably revise the BOR bracelet to make it simpler, and less costly to produce. We might go back to the original plan for the Tropics, which was to use the Miyota 9015, instead of a Swiss movement. That'll shave between 0.25mm and 0.5mm out of the case thickness, lower the cost further, and lower our defect rate.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Um, be very very careful if you choose to use a butterfly. 
For one, they have no microadjusts, and fiddling with matching up links and halflinks is way way way more of a pain in the butt than switching microadjustment holes on a proper clasp.
Secondly... butterfly clasps are stupidly thick in that swinging butterfly part, they just are not as comfortable.
I've been sometimes using butterfly clasps on the various aftermarket beads-of-rice bracelets - but only because the butterfly versions were the only ones available at the purchasing time. 

Since the butterfly clasp endlinks are proprietary and cannot be used with a normal/proper clasp, it also makes it hard to "fix" a bracelet by taking off the butterfly clasp and putting on a proper one (unless you get the clasp-adjacent endlinks too, which almost nobody ever sells without the bracelet itself).

The current v2 subs clasp is the best one currently available on nth watches.. Choosing a butterfly clasp instead of the v2 subs clasp would be a massive downgrade in just about every way.


----------



## fiskadoro (Sep 2, 2015)

docvail said:


> Nice pic, Marty, and nice IG feed. I just followed you. Glad you like the Antilles.
> 
> I wore my Azores a few times so far this month, and I can't argue the point about the clasp.
> 
> FWIW, and for whoever cares to know the thought process and challenges...


Thank you for the extensive reply -- it's really interesting to know the thought process that went into the design and how things don't always work out perfectly! Also, I appreciate you taking the time to follow me on IG.

The clasp micro-adjustments did bamboozle for me for a moment and then I looked inside the clasp and saw the 'stepped' design and realized the pin would only fit in the first hole. Fortunately it works for my wrist size pretty well -- taking out another link from the bracelet and wearing the clasp 'always extended' wouldn't really be ideal!

Anyway, if there are future Tropic bracelets on the horizon with slimmer clasps, I'd certainly be interested in grabbing one... but of course with butterfly clasps you sometimes get that pesky issue where there's very little adjustability unless you use a variety of link sizes!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I'm not exactly thinking about using a butterfly clasp, just juggling a few different ideas at once.

If we make more of the Tropics, we'd probably change the bracelet from a BOR to something simpler. But I don't yet know what that looks like.

Until I know what the new bracelet looks like, my mind is stuck thinking about what would have been better on the original BOR bracelet. With the dressier look of the Tropics, my gut tells me a butterfly clasp at least would have *looked* more right than either the expansion clasp or the Subs' clasp (which we didn't even have at that time), maybe, but that then leads to arguments against the butterfly, for functional reasons, all of which are quite valid.

Maybe a simple and thinner friction-folder would be more appropriate, but, A) I'd have to see if we could source a really good one, and B) my gut tells me that people might bemoan the lower security of it, as compared to the Subs' double-locking clasp.

I need to see what we come up with for the bracelet, first, before I can get into what clasp to use. We don't even have a new Tropics production in mind yet. I'm just "thinking out loud", both as a response to the comments here, and to the occasional requests we get to make more.

Which, of course, leads back to the matching supply and demand debate. Now that the Tropics are completely sold out, and all but the DevilFox version of the DevilRay are sold out, we have to field requests to make more of both, whether there's truly enough demand to rationalize another production run or not.

Like I've said, the day after the last piece of any model sells, someone will ask if we have or will make more, and suddenly it seems like we didn't make enough, despite how long it may have taken to sell all those we made.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Here's a thing...

I find that with many of my watches, the head always ends up riding the outside of my wrist, and I'm constantly shaking my hand to get it back to center. To the non-WIS obsverver, I probably look like I've got palsy or something.

I recall reading some discussion on here about adjusting bracelet length such that the 12-side is longer than the 6-side, in order to get the clasp to sit in a better spot on the underside of the wrist.

I usually do that, and don't notice any real benefit to either clasp or head location. I wear my bracelets a tad loose, and figured it was just the result - my watch ends up sloshing around, and coming to rest where it gets hung up on my wrist bone, and can't go over the edge.

But, since I've lost a little weight, all my bracelets feel a tad too loose now. So maybe if I remove another link or half-link, I'll get better results.

So...the question is - do any of you guys have an answer for this? Do you make the bracelet sides equal length, or unequal, and either way, do you find that there's some solution to keep the head from riding the outside of your wrist, or am I just a damned fool for not wearing my bracelets tighter in the first place, and this is my comeuppance?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Here's a thing...
> 
> I find that with many of my watches, the head always ends up riding the outside of my wrist, and I'm constantly shaking my hand to get it back to center. To the non-WIS obsverver, I probably look like I've got palsy or something.


Yep, this happens quite a lot. Constant problem. Even tho I technically have a really flat wrist-top, so this shouldn't happen...



> So...the question is - do any of you guys have an answer for this? Do you make the bracelet sides equal length, or unequal, and either way, do you find that there's some solution to keep the head from riding the outside of your wrist, or am I just a damned fool for not wearing my bracelets tighter in the first place, and this is my comeuppance?


Hmm... kinda.

Shortening the 6 side is what I normally do, yes. But that is more just to get the alignment correct in a "comfortable" position; meaning I adjust the bracelet such that the watch sits flat on top and the bracelet sits flat on bottom of wrist. Because of how long the folding-bit of the clasp is, compared to the top-cover of the clasp, you *must* make the 12-side have more links to get the folding-bits of the clasp in the actual middle.

As for the actually floppening... Eeeeeeh the shorter-on-6 method helps a bit, but not much. Tightening may help, but only at really uncomfortable levels. It ain't a solution.

What can help is to pick a lighter watch and a lighter bracelet. The more mass there is to swing around, the more it will swing. Also, the higher the watch heads' center-of-balance is off the wrist, the more it will swing.

Ultimately, ditch the bracelet, wear a leather strap or an elastic "military" band. They don't slip. (unless you got a really really really shi***y leather strap)


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Here's a thing...
> 
> I recall reading some discussion on here about adjusting bracelet length such that the 12-side is longer than the 6-side, in order to get the clasp to sit in a better spot on the underside of the wrist.


For me it's a combination of several things. I do wear bracelets shorter on the "6 side."

I also quit wearing huge and tiny watches. What constitutes "huge and tiny" is a specific different number for each individual. For me, the sweet spot is usually 39-40. NTH subs just happen to fall in that spot. There are dozens of beautiful watches that I've tried but flipped, because they didn't fit me.

There are a few that fall outside my typical spot, but for some reason their construction makes them stay put. That Omega SMP in the clasp photo above (I still have that pillow) just doesn't move on my wrist. Perhaps because of it's light weight and relative thinness (NTH subs also have that...).

The curve of the clasp can make it stay put, as can the bracelet construction (more links seem to help:BoR, 5 link, mesh, etc).

Finally, I love Bonetto Cinturini rubber straps. They just seem to hold the watch in place...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Here's a thing...
> 
> I find that with many of my watches, the head always ends up riding the outside of my wrist, and I'm constantly shaking my hand to get it back to center. To the non-WIS obsverver, I probably look like I've got palsy or something.
> 
> ...


I always shoot for getting the ends of the wrist-facing part of the clasp roughly equidistant from the watch head. Which means the 12 o'clock side always has more links.

In my experience, position of the clasp relative to watch head does make a difference in fit. I've gotten used watches before that were already sized to be the right circumference. But they felt weird. I shuffled links from one side of the clasp to the other to achieve the above guideline and it felt better to me. I think the clasp can act like an anchor stuck to the bottom of the wrist that keeps the watch head from rolling too far off the pinky side of the wrist.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

liquidtension said:


> Love the skipjack. It's like a brother to the Odin.
> View attachment 14397803


Superb photo!

I watched someone get a really good deal on a Skipjack on the bay a couple days back. I was proud of my self restraint at the time. Now I'm wondering what the opposite of buyer's remorse is called.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> It never even occurred to me that an expansion clasp would have micro-adjustments, much less that anyone would want to use them. I mean, it's an EXPANSION clasp. It expands. Why screw around with the micro-adjustments?


I want micro-adjustments on an expansion clasp, because I view the expansion feature as something to be used relatively rarely, when my wrist has swelled up due to extra exertion or hot weather or whatever. I want the normal, resting position of the clasp to be fully closed.

I bought a watch that had an expansion clasp and micro-adjustments, but the latter were relatively coarse, and I could not get a good normal fit without using the expansion feature.

My solution: I bought a new ordinary non-expanding flip-lock clasp from strapcode. Replaced the original expanding one, which still sits unused in the watch box.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Here's a thing...
> 
> I find that with many of my watches, the head always ends up riding the outside of my wrist, and I'm constantly shaking my hand to get it back to center. To the non-WIS obsverver, I probably look like I've got palsy or something.
> 
> ...


I tend to wear my watches a tad loose and they all pull to the outside. Just something I have to live with.

Too tight and it just bugs me. I really like the clasp on my Seiko Tuna, I can wear it tightish and it's so simple to open up using their divers extension system. The easiest I've come across.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Superb photo!
> 
> I watched someone get a really good deal on a Skipjack on the bay a couple days back. I was proud of my self restraint at the time. Now I'm wondering what the opposite of buyer's remorse is called.


It's just called regret.

Trust me, life is full of them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All my bracelets have a longer 12 side.

But, as an example, if I remove 5 links total, it'll be 2 on the 12, and 3 on the 6 side. If it's 6 links, it'll be 2 and 4.

I guess I was wondering if I shouldn't make it even more uneven, like 1/4 and 1/5, instead of 2/3 and 2/4.

Before my England trip, I resized the bracelets on the watches I planned to take. I messed up and made them all a little tighter than I like, but I did notice that while wearing them that way, the watch head stayed planted at the center-point, but it just wasn't as comfortable, generally.

So...I guess I'm stuck with palsy-hand, until I can find a better solution.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> Here's a thing...
> 
> I find that with many of my watches, the head always ends up riding the outside of my wrist, and I'm constantly shaking my hand to get it back to center. To the non-WIS obsverver, I probably look like I've got palsy or something.
> 
> ...


The 6H side of the bracelet is usually at least one link shorter than the 12H side, sometimes 1.5, occasionally 2 links shorter.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> All my bracelets have a longer 12 side.
> 
> But, as an example, if I remove 5 links total, it'll be 2 on the 12, and 3 on the 6 side. If it's 6 links, it'll be 2 and 4.
> 
> ...


Eat an effin sandwich and quit whining

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Shorter on the 6 side; slightly loose; palsy shake. I figure it's just insurance the watch is staying wound, and bonus points, half the time, I get to hear the Miyota freewheel.

Scorpene, moments before getting kicked off lawn seats at Hall & Oates due to electrical storm...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> Shorter on the 6 side; slightly loose; palsy shake. I figure it's just insurance the watch is staying wound, and bonus points, half the time, I get to hear the Miyota freewheel.
> 
> Scorpene, moments before getting kicked off lawn seats at Hall & Oates due to electrical storm...
> 
> View attachment 14398847


Posted shortly before getting kicked off this thread due to Hall & Oates. Dude. Keep it on the down low.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

hwa said:


> Posted shortly before getting kicked off this thread due to Hall & Oates. Dude. Keep it on the down low.


Bro, you're out of touch!

View attachment 14399085


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ian_61 said:


> Bro, you're out of touch!
> 
> View attachment 14399085




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> You're an animal!
> 
> When I got an SKX as my first automatic, non-hacking didn't bother me at all. When I wear it now, it still doesn't really bother me. But if a movement hacks, I can't imagine not setting it exactly.
> 
> Your way is probably better. Reminds me of my attitude about cars. I've always been anal about my cars. Kids forbidden to eat in the car for fear of crumbs and spills. Always park defensively - end spots, away from cars of obviously careless drivers, etc. It is so liberating to drive a rental and park anywhere, etc. that I've wondered if I'm making life more complicated than it should be. I think the only sensible course forward is a collection of cars. A dress car, a sports car, a beater car.


If I had a UHP quartz watch, I probably would put in the effort to set it to the second. My Citizens were radio controlled and did it themselves. With automatics though, I really don't see the point. I figure most of my watches are probably +/- 10 at least, so if I hack them so that they are correct to the second when I set them, they'll be off by the next day, when I'd have to reset them again. Too much of a PITA. I wear my watches for a few days in a row and swap them, unless I'm in honeymoon mode, which is currently where the SDGC009 is. They wind down in the watch box, and then when I pick them back up, I set them to my "close enough" standards, and that's that. The second hand is still useful if I need to time something to the minute, but other than that, it's just a glorified indicator that the watch is running.

Heh. I like the idea of a dress car. BMW M550i, Porsche 911 C4S, 1997 Toyota 4Runner. The ultimate 3 car collection. I don't really worry about my car that much either. Crumbs and spills really aren't a big deal, any auto detailer worth their salt should be able to take care of that. I try to avoid tempting fate - if I have to absolutely wedge myself into a parallel spot for example, I'll look for another one. Otherwise, eh. My wheels on the passenger side are curbed a bit. There are no obvious dents or scrapes, and I'd have those things fixed if there were. If the car is going to get hit though, it's going to get hit. It happens, you get it fixed, and you move on. I'm only keeping the thing for 3-4 years anyway, so I don't really see the point of going nuts over it.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Get a 2-hander watch. Suddenly don't care about + or - a couple of seconds here or there at all. That's the solution.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Here's a thing...
> 
> I find that with many of my watches, the head always ends up riding the outside of my wrist, and I'm constantly shaking my hand to get it back to center. To the non-WIS obsverver, I probably look like I've got palsy or something.
> 
> ...


Leather straps FTW. My wrists are tiny so I wear my watches well past the wrist bone. Going leather over steel reduces the overall weight of the watch _substantially_, enough so that the strap and the bit of skin oil between my wrist and the caseback are enough to hold the watch in place exactly where I want it. I always had the same issue when I used to wear bracelets. On cold mornings (and basically all mornings are cold here in OR) the bracelet would be too loose, and the watch would slide down to my wrist bone, and to the outside of my arm, and I'd have to push it back in place. Making it any tighter would make it uncomfortable as soon as the weather warmed up. Leather takes care of all of that, and I have some straps that are under $20 that are _extremely_ comfortable.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Get a 2-hander watch. Suddenly don't care about + or - a couple of seconds here or there at all. That's the solution.
> 
> View attachment 14399281


But how will you possibly know when to spit out the fluoride treatment wash at the dentist? I like that my watches all have constantly running 1-minute chrono hands that I can use on the rare occasion I might need them for something, and also serve as a very obvious answer to "is the watch running? Y/N" Also, there's a part of me that feels that if I'm going to have a two-hand watch, I might as well get something like a solar quartz. My biggest issue with quartz watches is the ugly dead seconds hand. Take that away, and it looks no different (on the surface, at least) than any two-hand automatic.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yeah. A well-made solar quartz twohander ain't a bad idea at all. The only issue is, you only have citizen and seiko to pick from, and both of them focus on quality levels that are just one notch too low to be keepers (and designs are.... questionable).

Alternate answer:

Raise 'em to your ear. If the watch is running, you're gonna hear the (mechanical) movement ticking.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

hwa said:


> Posted shortly before getting kicked off this thread due to Hall & Oates. Dude. Keep it on the down low.


Fri night was Sunflower Bean, Spoon, Cage the Elephant, and Beck. Last year, at the same venue, Anthrax, Lamb of God, and Slayer.

Just trying to keep a healthy balance in life... and keep my partner happy...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Posted shortly before getting kicked off this thread due to Hall & Oates. Dude. Keep it on the down low.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Shut your mouth, fool.

Hall & Oates were my jam, back in the day.

I was 12 back in that day, but they were my jam.

Seriously though, don't diss the Philadelphia Sound.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Get a 2-hander watch. Suddenly don't care about + or - a couple of seconds here or there at all. That's the solution.
> 
> View attachment 14399281


Two-handers are one of those things...

My first instinct is to say I just don't get it, having a mechanical watch with no means of telling if it's running. For that matter, having any watch with no running seconds, quartz or mechanical - WTF?

But then...I briefly owned a birth-year Seiko Pogue without running seconds, and somehow I got used to it. It's been long enough since I had it that I can't remember whether or not there were times when I wasn't sure if the time was right or if it had stopped, or how many of those there may have been, but...a lot of peeps like them Pogues.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Shut your mouth, fool.
> 
> Hall & Oates were my jam, back in the day.
> 
> ...


Philly guy bullying me over Hall and effin Oates. That's a picture.

Well, now I know why you called me a pansy. Takes one to know one, i guess

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Philly guy bullying me over Hall and effin Oates. That's a picture.
> 
> Well, now I know why you called me a pansy. Takes one to know one, i guess
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You need a hug.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Here's a hug: 









White seconds hand, ftw
2mm sapphire dome, blue AR

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh.

Noobs and accuracy discussion. Kill me now...

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=5015965&share_fid=13788&share_type=t

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

While I understand the right to speak along with accuracy discussions on a watch forum actually make sense those discussions drive me nuts. 

And it's not like other threads that might bug me yet I read them all the way through like needing to look at a traffic accident. Just seeing a title about accuracy or at most skimming the op and a few comments are like nails on a chalk board for me. 

I have a cell phone for exact accuracy. I wear a watch at most 12 hours or so and it might not be worn for another 2 weeks or so again. Unless something is way outta whack then I don't care. 

To point out again: I understand they make "sense" around here but they bother me. ALOT. This is an "It's not you, it's me" kinda thing.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Doc,

Your respect for and friendship with Chip, and learning about all of the manufacturing hassles he's had to endure in your most recent House Calls episode, just tipped me over the preorder edge.

Happily just put my money down a green-gilt Aevig Hydra v2 

Even though I tend not to gel with most cushion cases long term (the DevilRay curiously being an exception-props), Chip seems like he definitely deserves my money to at least try the new Hydra out for a bit. Plus I'm into green and gilt lately. And at about $450 US right now, the forthcoming Hydra seems like a hell of a value prop at preorder rates 



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gokce (May 10, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Doc,
> 
> Your respect for and friendship with Chip, and learning about all of the manufacturing hassles he's had to endure in your most recent House Calls episode, just tipped me over the preorder edge.
> 
> Happily just put my money down a green-gilt Aevig Hydra v2


Same here. I was considering the Huldra but already owning the DevilRay, I thought I should give it a pass. After Doc's praise, I ordered the green gilt.

Aevig will be in London at the end of August for a watch fair, I am hoping to drop by and meet Chip in person.

Here's my DevilRay:


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



gokce said:


> Same here. I was considering the Huldra but already owning the DevilRay, I thought I should give it a pass. After Doc's praise, I ordered the green gilt.
> 
> Aevig will be in London at the end of August for a watch fair, I am hoping to drop by and meet Chip in person.
> 
> Here's my DevilRay:[/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190818/57e466378330a3d50314940763baea8c.jpg[/IMG]


Great minds think alike 

I like how the Huldra v2 case looks like it may have a bit slimmer of a cushion shape relative to the DevilRay and the other leading cushion case micro IMO, the Nodus Avalon.

I'm also optimistic about the width and l2l of the Huldra v2 being about 2mm trimmer each than the Avalon, which wore just a tad big on me.

I also prefer the more distinctive 12, 3, 6, and 9 indices on the Huldra v2 relative to the Avalon.

I also didn't know about the enamel bezel insert on the Huldra v2 until listening to Doc and Chip discuss it. It sounds like a cool material to try out in the metal, as those old school Bakelite bezels to which it is similar are definitely sharp looking.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mplsabdullah said:


> While I understand the right to speak along with accuracy discussions on a watch forum actually make sense those discussions drive me nuts.
> 
> And it's not like other threads that might bug me yet I read them all the way through like needing to look at a traffic accident. Just seeing a title about accuracy or at most skimming the op and a few comments are like nails on a chalk board for me.
> 
> ...


The thing that kills me is I *KNOW* I'm dealing with a noob when they start arguing with me. Everything I'm saying in those accuracy discussions is 100% correct, and they just disregard all of it.

It's pretty much the same thing with every debate now. I'm not commenting if I don't know what I'm talking about. Every argument has become an exercise in futility, not because some guys CAN'T understand, it's that some guys DON'T WANT to understand.

You just can't fix stupid.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> The thing that kills me is I *KNOW* I'm dealing with a noob when they start arguing with me. Everything I'm saying in those accuracy discussions is 100% correct, and they just disregard all of it.
> 
> It's pretty much the same thing with every debate now. I'm not commenting if I don't know what I'm talking about. Every argument has become an exercise in futility, not because some guys CAN'T understand, it's that some guys DON'T WANT to understand.
> 
> You just can't fix stupid.


A wise Man once say:

"When you are dead you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid".

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

dmjonez said:


> f2....


Well done, sir.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Reworked a previous mod - swapped into a case with 20mm lugs for better strap options.

Anyway, now Bad Bad Bahia Brown has a punk little brother.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah. A well-made solar quartz twohander ain't a bad idea at all. The only issue is, you only have citizen and seiko to pick from, and both of them focus on quality levels that are just one notch too low to be keepers (and designs are.... questionable).
> 
> Alternate answer:
> 
> Raise 'em to your ear. If the watch is running, you're gonna hear the (mechanical) movement ticking.


That's why I don't have one. Bulova's movement is as smooth as a spring drive and also solves the ugly second hand problem, but unlike solar it doesn't last long enough to not be annoying. They're also nearly all hideous and look like cheap department store watches (which they are). They do make a chrono that actually looks like a nice watch as opposed to something you'd buy at Sears for $200, but I don't need or even like most chronographs that much. If I were to get one it would be an elegant bi-compax like one of Farer's models, not something as overstuffed with features as the Bulova.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Happy #bluewatchmonday antidote for Monday blues..


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Gotcha. Well you should be able to swap hands on basically any watch. I'm sure there are less options available for the Miyota than the boat loads of third party Seiko hands, but the 9015 isn't exactly uncommon.


I was being sarcastic. There is a multitude of hands that are the correct size to fit the 9015. The correct hand length is a whole other issue. My hands are for an ETA 2472 that I modified to for the 9015 movement.

And yes, I can, and have, swapped hands on most watches I've owned. That's just how it goes with me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

jelliottz said:


> I was being sarcastic. There is a multitude of hands that are the correct size to fit the 9015. The correct hand length is a whole other issue. My hands are for an ETA 2472 that I modified to for the 9015 movement.
> 
> And yes, I can, and have, swapped hands on most watches I've owned. That's just how it goes with me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When the going gets tough, the tough get weird! Keep on rockin in the free world!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

jelliottz said:


> I was being sarcastic. There is a multitude of hands that are the correct size to fit the 9015. The correct hand length is a whole other issue. My hands are for an ETA 2472 that I modified to for the 9015 movement.
> 
> And yes, I can, and have, swapped hands on most watches I've owned. That's just how it goes with me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gotcha. Can't say I've really felt the need to change the hands with the vast majority of watches I've owned. If I don't like the hands that much, I just don't buy the watch in the first place. The Borealis Adraga is a good example. Neither handset choice is right - the Mercedes version has a fat minute hand like a Yachtmaster that doesn't balance properly with the skinny Explorer hour hand, and the baton version is worse - they aren't beveled and look terrible as a result. I don't know if this was an example of them cutting corners in order to make the watch viable at $430, but I think they would've been much better off making it $475 and using higher quality hands. They sold out all of them though, so clearly they don't need my advice.

The one exception is my SKX, which went from sticks to Mechanical Alpinist to Dagaz Planet Ocean hands, though as part of a much larger mod project.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

jelliottz said:


> I was being sarcastic. There is a multitude of hands that are the correct size to fit the 9015. The correct hand length is a whole other issue. My hands are for an ETA 2472 that I modified to for the 9015 movement.
> 
> And yes, I can, and have, swapped hands on most watches I've owned. That's just how it goes with me.


Jelliottz is an expert at changing hands....bezel inserts too.


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Gotcha. Can't say I've really felt the need to change the hands with the vast majority of watches I've owned. If I don't like the hands that much, I just don't buy the watch in the first place. The Borealis Adraga is a good example. Neither handset choice is right - the Mercedes version has a fat minute hand like a Yachtmaster that doesn't balance properly with the skinny Explorer hour hand, and the baton version is worse - they aren't beveled and look terrible as a result. I don't know if this was an example of them cutting corners in order to make the watch viable at $430, but I think they would've been much better off making it $475 and using higher quality hands. They sold out all of them though, so clearly they don't need my advice.
> 
> The one exception is my SKX, which went from sticks to Mechanical Alpinist to Dagaz Planet Ocean hands, though as part of a much larger mod project.


No watch is perfect; at least very few. Without spending a fortune, I can make minor modifications and get exactly what I want. I've even owned a couple vintage Rolex and Tudor watches (Air King and Prince Date) on which I swapped a few parts.

If I own it, it will be the way I want. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Jelliottz is an expert at changing hands....bezel inserts too.


Thanks Brother!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

hwa said:


> When the going gets tough, the tough get weird! Keep on rockin in the free world!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment P1zGR4MG.jpeg


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

...









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jelliottz said:


> And when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


- Hunter S. Thompson

Gonzo!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

OK, last week, I heard, "Amphion Commando release date pushed out to Aug 31."

I don't pay attention to stuff like that down to the date, so last info which registered on my end was "Late-Aug/Early-Sep - ish," which in my head gets translated to mid/late-Sep. If it happens late-Aug, great, if not -- *shrug* -- I can wait.

"Buy the ticket, take the ride..."


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

All these new kids and their NTHs. I'm going old school today.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

rpm1974 said:


> All these new kids and their NTHs. I'm going old school today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mr Smiths goes to Washington 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

hwa said:


> Mr Smiths goes to Washington
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I once tried begging for factory seconds, but all I got was a two stage captcha. I seemingly got the "New England Clam Chowder" part right but was foolish enough to enter "red" on the following one. No bueno.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I love this post because I have no idea what it means! I do know this: the BB is too damn big for me, so this gives me that black n blue vibe, with Explorer twist! (You purists might note that I dumped the high-dome acrylic in favor of a return to OEM sapphire).



Andrjes said:


> I once tried begging for factory seconds, but all I got was a two stage captcha. I seemingly got the "New England Clam Chowder" part right but was foolish enough to enter "red" on the following one. No bueno.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> OK, last week, I heard, "Amphion Commando release date pushed out to Aug 31."
> 
> I don't pay attention to stuff like that down to the date, so last info which registered on my end was "Late-Aug/Early-Sep - ish," which in my head gets translated to mid/late-Sep. If it happens late-Aug, great, if not -- *shrug* -- I can wait.
> 
> "Buy the ticket, take the ride..."


The Amphion Commando and Tikuna were literally delivered to us (specifically, Dan) today, so we're (also, specifically, Dan is) starting our final QC now. If all goes well (not a lot of defects to fix, and/or minimal-to-no waiting on parts), they'll be ready to ship before the end of the month.

For some reason, the Vanguard dials were delayed. I don't even ask for explanations any more. But, the assembly team now has the dials, so the Vanguard is in final assembly now, and we're hoping to have them here for final QC within 1 week, or 2 at most.

If I were selling all the watches direct to customers, I could put them all up for sale as soon as we know they passed QC, but I'm dealing with retailers in various countries, which is a little like herding cats. I'm still trying to figure out when we'll make them all available for purchase, but I think it makes the most sense to make all three of the new models available at the same time. My best guess is sometime around the end of the month or very early next, give or take a few days.

No doubt, we always seem to be at least a couple weeks behind our own delivery estimates with every release, but there have been a handful of times when we were ahead of schedule, and let me assure you, it's just as problematic.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Does Dan have a camera phone so we can see some pics of the Commando? 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Does Dan have a camera phone so we can see some pics of the Commando?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


He has multiple cameras, and animals, and cars, and guitars, and who knows what else. He's got a lot of toys. He doesn't have kids, so...do the math.

He also keeps weird hours. He goes to bed before 7pm, and wakes up around 3am. It's currently 6:15pm. I'm not pestering him for pictures.

You'll see them when we're done with QC.

QC takes precedence over taking pictures.

Take a look at Rusty's renders. I guarantee they're very accurate.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> He has multiple cameras, and animals, and cars, and guitars, and who knows what else. He's got a lot of toys. He doesn't have kids, so...do the math.
> 
> He also keeps weird hours. He goes to bed before 7pm, and wakes up around 3am. It's currently 6:15pm. I'm not pestering him for pictures.
> 
> ...


I mean...look at these. Tell me Rusty's not killing it with the 3D's...









View attachment 14404193


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GUY ON INTERNET: "3D renders just aren't as good as real-life photography."

RUSTY: "Hold my beard..."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Before anyone even starts...

Remember that time we posted pics we got from the factory, or from Dan, or from me, or from any of the professional photographers who I've paid THOUSANDS of dollars to, and you all gave a collective "meh", but then, later, when you saw the real "real-world" pics start to come in, you were all like "wow, I didn't realize how good they'd be", and I was all like "Yep, told you, that's how it always is, the real thing is ALWAYS better"?

Uhm...you should remember that, because it's literally (not figuratively) EVERY, SINGLE, MODEL, EVER.

I don't pay Dan to do photos. I pay Dan to do QC. That's his business, and business is good. 

I pay Rusty to do 3D. As you can see, he's pretty awesome at it. That's his business, and business is good.

I gave up on photography. Y'all just need to accept that the 3D renders are as good as you're going to get, until you all can start posting your own pics. 

The watches will be awesome. They always are. Way better than the pics we show you make them look. 

I sell awesome. That's *MY* business. And business, gentlemen, is good.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Hall & Oates are my favorite band, ever, and I've modeled my whole adult life after the lessons learned by listening to their hits. Especially, Rich Girl, cuz she's gone too far and knows it doesn't matter anyway. You know why? Of course you do. It's because she can rely on her old man's money. Duh.

Send it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> Before anyone even starts...
> 
> Remember that time we posted pics we got from the factory, or from Dan, or from me, or from any of the professional photographers who I've paid THOUSANDS of dollars to, and you all gave a collective "meh", but then, later, when you saw the real "real-world" pics start to come in, you were all like "wow, I didn't realize how good they'd be", and I was all like "Yep, told you, that's how it always is, the real thing is ALWAYS better"?
> 
> ...


Don't kid yourself, this Bahia photo of yours sold many watches


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Hall & Oates are my favorite band, ever, and I've modeled my whole adult life after the lessons learned by listening to their hits. Especially, Rich Girl, cuz she's gone too far and knows it doesn't matter anyway. You know why? Of course you do. It's because she can rely on her old man's money. Duh.
> 
> Send it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good enough. I'll get you that part now.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> Before anyone even starts...
> 
> Remember that time we posted pics we got from the factory, or from Dan, or from me, or from any of the professional photographers who I've paid THOUSANDS of dollars to, and you all gave a collective "meh", but then, later, when you saw the real "real-world" pics start to come in, you were all like "wow, I didn't realize how good they'd be", and I was all like "Yep, told you, that's how it always is, the real thing is ALWAYS better"?
> 
> ...


Photos.... just shows you one part of the watch. Which is how it looks... 3D just shows what you want it to look in real life. But handling it in real life - it's a totally different experience. A lot of watch enthusiast miss this point. ALWAYS - and often at first glance goes ... "meh" I could pay half the price for something better. But let's leave it as it is and not open a can of worms.. and enjoy the photos below.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Tikuna is out there, man. Kind of sci-fi. Kind of crazy. Might suit Rick and Morty.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Tikuna is out there, man. Kind of sci-fi. Kind of crazy. Might suit Rick and Morty.
> 
> View attachment 14404813


Not even a little embarrassed to admit I know EXACTLY what you mean. That show is genius. My sons got me into it. My only excuse is that both my sons had watched every episode before my wife or I realized how insanely inappropriate it is.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



gokce said:


> Same here. I was considering the Huldra but already owning the DevilRay, I thought I should give it a pass. After Doc's praise, I ordered the green gilt.
> 
> Aevig will be in London at the end of August for a watch fair, I am hoping to drop by and meet Chip in person.
> 
> Here's my DevilRay:


I didn't know Chip was going to WorldTime. That's good. He needs to get out more. Any opportunity to get himself and his product in front of the people is one to take advantage of.

Page & Cooper will be there, with NTH inventory on display, plus UV torches, and I think some other swag from other brands they represent. Be sure to stop by and say hello, and check out the other NTH models.

Really wish I could make it, but that end-of-August time frame is just killing me. Not that I'm going to Hong Kong this year, but I was just in England in June, and the HK show is the first week of September, so I may not be able to make it to WorldTime next year, either, if I stick to my every-other-year trip to the HK show pattern.

I hope all you guys will be happy with the Huldra, and if you are, that you'll spread the word on the forums and elsewhere. Chip's attention to detail is next level, and he deserves more recognition than he gets, IMO.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Not even a little embarrassed to admit I know EXACTLY what you mean. That show is genius. My sons got me into it. My only excuse is that both my sons had watched every episode before my wife or I realized how insanely inappropriate it is.


You're not kidding. That series was a wild, fun ride. But I questioned on more than one occasion if I was mature enough to handle it. Some of the morality questions were unsettling.

The True Level scene was great. Morty is like a watch geek experiencing +0.0000000000000 s/day accuracy. Or True Bezel Alignment! Hopefully this link works.

*



*


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Great minds think alike
> 
> I like how the Huldra v2 case looks like it may have a bit slimmer of a cushion shape relative to the DevilRay and the other leading cushion case micro IMO, the Nodus Avalon.
> 
> ...


Sorry if I should already know this, but...do you attend our Mid-Atlantic GTG's in Philly? If not, I hope you will, if we organize another next year (I think I'll let someone else organize for a change). I'd like to see the new Huldra in person.

I like that there are multiple brands doing Turtle case shapes. It's a great look.

I don't mind saying that I've taken inspiration from the Huldra, and some of that made its way into the DevilRay. I loved my v.1 Huldra, and spent a lot of time looking at its case. I can honestly say that the original Huldra was the first case I really scrutinized closely. Seeing what Chip got really right made me want to put more effort into my own case designs.

I don't know if Wes and Cullen took any inspiration from the DevilRay, but I see some similar thinking in its lines, and I always thought (and still think) the Avalon is great. It's got a very ambitious case design, and they had to be persistent to get it made the way they wanted it (I know that feel, very well). I'm always interested to see what those guys will do next. They're sharp cats.

All three watches share similar fooprints, but they're all very different animals. I think it would be awesome to own all of them, or to see someone do a side-by-side comparison of all three, but I think each should be judged on its own merits, rather than see them as direct competitors to each other. They're just three different brands' takes on the same theme.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> You're not kidding. That series was a wild, fun ride. But I questioned on more than one occasion if I was mature enough to handle it. Some of the morality questions were unsettling.
> 
> The True Level scene was great. Morty is like a watch geek experiencing +0.0000000000000 s/day accuracy. Or True Bezel Alignment! Hopefully this link works.
> 
> ...


OMG! That might actually be the most perfect analogy of watch geeks and their quest for perfection which I've ever overlooked.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Sorry if I should already know this, but...do you attend our Mid-Atlantic GTG's in Philly? If not, I hope you will, if we organize another next year (I think I'll let someone else organize for a change). I'd like to see the new Huldra in person.
> 
> I like that there are multiple brands doing Turtle case shapes. It's a great look.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind encouragement to attend. I hope to. I had hoped to last year too but I think work or something ended up conflicting. If I make it, I'll definitely bring the new Huldra along 

Always cool to hear about what inspire(d,s) a designer 

I'm a big fan of all of NTH, Nodus, and more recently Aevig's respective outputs. And all three have indeed put out very cool and distinct cushion-case watches 

I've owned or own several NTH Subs and a Devil Ray, and several Nodus Triestes and Avalons and a Retrospect (I've also almost pulled the trigger on a Contrail several times). Aevig has grown on me such that I'm now digging the Corvid and of course have a Huldra on preorder.

Not everything has stood the test of time for me for one reason or another (decided the size just didn't work for me, "one in one out," etc.). But you're all indeed putting out some great designs with great specs and great prices  Besides my Omega Speedmaster Reduced, I think all of my more expensive pieces (relatively speaking-I generally like to hang out at $1000 and under) are micros 

And while Chip seems reserved (which is perfectly fine), I enjoy shooting the s**t with you in here (plus reading all of the fruits of your research and experience), and seeing all of the community engagement Wes and Cullen are doing with the interviews and traveling and whatnot.



























































































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

hwa said:


> I love this post because I have no idea what it means! I do know this: the BB is too damn big for me, so this gives me that black n blue vibe, with Explorer twist! (You purists might note that I dumped the high-dome acrylic in favor of a return to OEM sapphire).







And I would like to extend my apologies to the nice people at Time Factors, for possibly having caused something akin to a DDoS on their inbox.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I sooooo wanted to quote that entire wall of pics, but...I'm not a dlck...



ck2k01 said:


> Thanks for the kind encouragement to attend. I hope to. I had hoped to last year too but I think work or something ended up conflicting. If I make it, I'll definitely bring the new Huldra along
> 
> Always cool to hear about what inspire(d,s) a designer
> 
> I'm a big fan of all of NTH, Nodus, and more recently Aevig's respective outputs. *And all three have indeed put out very cool and distinct cushion-case watches* ...


Not to get pedantic with you (he said, about to become pedantic), but you're calling them cushion-cased, whereas I think cushion-case usually refers to the more "rounded square" shape associated with Panerai and similarly-shaped watches.

I've always referred to the DevilRay and other watches with its sort of shape as "turtle" cases.

Don't let my pedantry stick in your craw, nor should anyone look at it as an invitation to debate. There are many instances where the labels seem less descriptive, yet are used anyway.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

More pics from Dan.

Apparently he's taking breaks from QC to f**k off and take pics. This is what I get for letting him spend time hanging around with Rusty...


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14405791


Love this one with date

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I really need to step away from this thread. The Tikuna is awesome.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I sooooo wanted to quote that entire wall of pics, but...I'm not a dlck...
> 
> Not to get pedantic with you (he said, about to become pedantic), but you're calling them cushion-cased, whereas I think cushion-case usually refers to the more "rounded square" shape associated with Panerai and similarly-shaped watches.
> 
> ...







































#tonneau

But just to prove you wrong and me right that they're synonymous in everyday WIS parlance:










#lawyered

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14405791
> 
> 
> View attachment 14405793
> ...


Soooo looking forward to getting one of these...


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

I need a no date Devil back in my collection. Regret selling it 

It did help fund my mini grail Gerry Lopez SeaMaster, but I still long for it.

I made a DevilRay poster and hung it from the ceiling, I just lay in wait under it for the cheap tape to give out.........


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Andrjes said:


> And I would like to extend my apologies to the nice people at Time Factors, for possibly having caused something akin to a DDoS on their inbox.


Was that you asking me about the accuracy of your Everest on FB chat?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Don't kid yourself, this Bahia photo of yours sold many watches


I remember taking that pic. Nice sunny day. Just the right time of it. No filter or edits needed.

For every one image I get like that, I'll get a hundred that my own mother wouldn't put on the refrigerator with a magnet.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## rneiman3 (May 17, 2019)

When did NTH start selling the Azores?........... & are there any plans to offer more?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

rneiman3 said:


> When did NTH start selling the Azores?........... & are there any plans to offer more?


Oof sorry man. The Azores was about 2 years ago? Not sure lol I think doc may have mentioned a possibility down the road but I don't think anything is definite yet

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rneiman3 said:


> When did NTH start selling the Azores?........... & are there any plans to offer more?





kpjimmy said:


> Oof sorry man. The Azores was about 2 years ago? Not sure lol I think doc may have mentioned a possibility down the road but I don't think anything is definite yet
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I want to say we started sales on the Antilles and Azores in late 2016, and delivered them in spring 2017.

I've been thinking about re-jiggering them a bit, and possibly making more next year, maybe.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> I want to say we started sales on the Antilles and Azores in late 2016, and delivered them in spring 2017.
> 
> I've been thinking about re-jiggering them a bit, and possibly making more next year, maybe.


Yep. @mpsabdullah placed the first order on 10 October 2016. Looks like deliveries started in May 2017.

If we make more, my thinking was to use the Miyotas, not the STP's. We could shave about 0.5mm out of the total case thickness, maybe.

I'd probably skip the BOR bracelet in favor of something simpler, use the same clasp we use on the Subs.

The goal would be for the Tropics 2.0 to sell for the same as the Subs, give or take. If we did the above, we should be able to accomplish that.

I'd definitely want to bring back the both versions of the Azores, unchanged. Not sure if all four of the Antilles would make it back. I might like to make them all no-date only, use the Miyota 9039, and shrink the case even more. We should be able to get it very close to 11mm flat.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Just want to say I am already regretting discovering this thread and NTH. That Amphion looks utterly badass. I can’t unsee it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

@Ike2---welcome to the suction that is NTH.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Not even a little embarrassed to admit I know EXACTLY what you mean. That show is genius. My sons got me into it. My only excuse is that both my sons had watched every episode before my wife or I realized how insanely inappropriate it is.


"After the boom boom, some adapted to the new truth, and some chose to huddle near the boomy holes, clinging to the lie of the beforefore times."

"***** Christ, did the boomy booms blow up all your wordy word books?"

"You mean dictionaries?"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rneiman3 said:


> When did NTH start selling the Azores?........... & are there any plans to offer more?


There's a guy on FB searching high and low for a white Antilles, and wants to add 5 versions of the DevilRay. He's already got a blue, no-date Antilles, one of just 30 made.








View attachment 14407373


Supply and demand.

We're sold out. This guy is desperate to find what he wants, and is asking for help. Okay, I'll help.

I go on WatchRecon, to see recent sales, and just shake my head.

We only made 30 pieces of the blue Antilles - last one to sell used, excellent condition, went for just $475.

Vanilla no-date Azores, 92% condition, one of 40 - $475.

Champagne Antilles, excellent condition, one of only 65 - $500.

I dunno, maybe it's timing, but...one of FREAKING 30, 40 or even 65, in the WHOLE WORLD, and you can't get any of those, new, anywhere, not for at least a year and a half - and peeps are just chucking 'em up for grabs like the bouquet at a hillbilly wedding.

I go on eBay...

A Mint (color, not condition) Azores no-date, one of just 35, sold in June, "pre-owned" condition - for $695 (just $5 less than the new price, in 2016), plus $9.95 shipping. I couldn't even find an Antilles for sale on there. THAT'S how you flip a watch, people.

I'm not looking to sell my Azores, Antilles, or DevilRays (1 of 35, 1 of 65, 1 of 18, 1 of 25, and 1 of 5, respectively), but if I was, I'd start the bidding at $700, maybe more, just because. Mine are mint. They're sold out, made in small numbers, and phenomenal pieces. I think they're worth more than what we charged, and I know there are guys out there who agree with me.









I sold a Commander 300 for $500 (full retail price, even though it was used, and 2 years old). I sold my Atomic Orange Orthos II for $600, $100 OVER full retail (it was used, but mint, one of only 6 produced). OMG! "Only" a Seiko NH35 in those! Highway robbery, right?

Dat habitual flipping some folks do is costing you some $$$. Gotta wait for your pitch, so to speak, and sell when the market wants to buy, not when you need the cash to buy something else.

The time to flip isn't 6 months after you get a watch, and start getting that itchy trigger finger. It's when there's a guy who just has to have one, and is willing to pay to get what he wants.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Since it was brought up, I thought I'd share what's on my wrist today, after nearly a week straight of the SDGC009. Of the.... 15 or 16 automatics I've had come and go since I started collecting in earnest around 3 years ago, only this watch and my SKX have stood the test of time, and the SKX only because I can keep changing it when I eventually tire of whatever my most recent mod is. I expect that both of my SDGC cocktails will be long term keepers, but the Huldra has already proven itself. I'm not sure what kind of crystal Chip used on the V2, but the V1 has a pretty unique single dome (I think) that creates a really cool lensing effect when you look at the watch at extreme angles. It also has the effect of making the rehaut appear nearly invisible.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> There's a guy on FB searching high and low for a white Antilles, and wants to add 5 versions of the DevilRay. He's already got a blue, no-date Antilles, one of just 30 made.
> 
> View attachment 14407369
> 
> ...


And yes, I did help. You're welcome, if either of these are your listings...


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

1. I can't believe that I've never heard of Rick and Morty, but I just watched about 5 of those videos. OMG, where has this show been all my life?

2. I had no idea there was a Gerry Lopez LE Seamaster. Way too cool.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

BoR on BVB


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> 1. I can't believe that I've never heard of Rick and Morty, but I just watched about 5 of those videos. OMG, where has this show been all my life?
> 
> 2. I had no idea there was a Gerry Lopez LE Seamaster. Way too cool.


1. My sons and I have watched every episode, multiple times. My son has been giving me regular updates about the new season, hopefully due soon. We always have a dozen queued up on the DVR. After the exchange last night, I watched "Look Who's Purging Now".

2. I had no idea there was a Gerry Lopez. I had to look him up first, then look up his Seamaster. Typical Omega - looks exactly like a regular SMP GMT, but with a different caseback. Wildly creative, Omega.

---

Check out the April 1st (April Fools Day) "Bush World" show they did one year. It's even more insane, and literally ran in an endless loop for 24 hours that day.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> Dat habitual flipping some folks do is costing you some $$$. Gotta wait for your pitch, so to speak, and sell when the market wants to buy, not when you need the cash to buy something else.
> 
> ...


Serious question, is there a good time to sell the seemingly always now available Nacken Modern Blue?

It served me well.

- First NTH. 
- Helped me justify a Nacken Vintage Blue. "If I like the Vintage more, I'll sell the Modern. So basically, the Vintage is free!" (Meanwhile, still have the Modern.)
- Helping me justify an ambitious purchase. "Well, I'll sell the Modern soon, so that's like getting the new watch for $NTH less." (Now that watch has saved me 2 x $NTH)


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ike2 said:


> Just want to say I am already regretting discovering this thread and NTH. That Amphion looks utterly badass. I can't unsee it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There are a lot of cool subs. Pace yourself.

Also, you may want to wait and check out the 38mm orange-dial bronze three-hander with female endlink jubilee before you finalize your NTH shopping list.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Serious question, is there a good time to sell the seemingly always now available Nacken Modern Blue?
> 
> It served me well.
> 
> ...


Team vintage blue 

Straight OG




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Serious question, is there a good time to sell the seemingly always now available Nacken Modern Blue?
> 
> It served me well.
> 
> ...


Just try to be as opportunistic as possible.

Ask yourself:

1. Is it for sale, new, readily/anywhere?

Yes? Maybe wait until it's sold out.

2. If it's not for sale, new, readily/anywhere, how long has it been sold out everywhere, and what sort of demand seems to remain?

There was a time, not that long ago (like, within the last 12 months) when the Nacken Modern Blue was sold out for months, and selling for a premium on eBay. That would have been a good time to sell.

3. Are there multiple WTB (wanted to buy) threads for the same watch?

Yes? Good time to sell, even if you weren't even thinking about it.

4. How many are selling or have sold used recently?

A lot? What's your rush?

The problem I see is that most people do their buying on emotion, and end up selling when they're trying to buy something else, and "need" the money.

Gabe (UVALaw) could publish a thick coffee table book with each page dedicated to the watches he's flipped for profit. He's got his system, with lots of little nuances, but the one big thing, I think, is that he's never buying or selling with any emotion whatsoever. He buys when he sees what he knows is a good deal, and looks to flip when he senses he can earn a profit. Even if he's "attached" to a watch, he'd flip it for the right price.

That's not ALL there is to it, but if you just did that much, you'd save yourself a ton on the flipping.

Just look at what you're doing - you bought one watch while planning to sell another. Now you're talking about selling one or both to fund yet another. But...where is the focus on who's buying, and where? We were sold out of both those models, for months. They were selling for top dollar - some for more than full retail - on eBay during that time.

All those guys who sold their Azores and Antilles on f29 probably had some other watch they wanted to buy. So they sold for less than they could have gotten had they waited until there was a buyer looking for that watch, or gone where the buyers are.

That guy on Facebook would have paid more than $475-$500 for those watches. There's another guy who commented he might want to sell his Watch Gauge LE DevilRay. I bet he gets offered more than he would if he just chucked it up on f29 with some $hltty pics and a "just not getting enough wrist-time" story.

The guy who sold his 2-year-old Azores on eBay got $705 with shipping, two years after we launched that model at $700. He waited until we were sold out, and he went where the buyers are.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Toonces said:


> 1. I can't believe that I've never heard of Rick and Morty, but I just watched about 5 of those videos. OMG, where has this show been all my life?
> 
> 2. I had no idea there was a Gerry Lopez LE Seamaster. Way too cool.


"The Ricklantis Mixup" is one of the best episodes of television I've ever seen. In a single episode they manage to parody Training Day, Stand By Me, make several social commentaries including a couple of truly jaw dropping ones on soulless marketing and consumerism, and skewer modern American politics without even trying. Seriously, they've said in interviews that the end of the episode wasn't intended to reference anything specific. And they do all of this with TWO CHARACTERS.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PS - I wasn't looking to sell my Atomic Orange Orthos. A guy knew I had one, he wanted it, bad, and so I let him have it - for $100 over full retail. I'd still own it (probably), otherwise.

That Commander 300? I saw someone selling one, BNIB, but 18-24 months after we'd sold them all - for $300. I knew they frequently sold for $500, so I instantly bought it, and instantly flipped it, for a $200 profit. 

My two Seikos? I got a sweet two-fer deal when I offered a dealer cash on the spot. It'd be nearly impossible for me to lose money if I sold them both, right now, 18 months later. 

My Amphion Dark Gilt? I mentioned I MIGHT be thinking of letting some pieces go. MikeyT chased me down to say "dibs". I forget what he paid me for it, but I guarantee it was more than I'd have gotten putting it up on f29 and admitting I just wasn't wearing it enough (even though that was exactly why I let it go).

My Barracuda Vintage Black? Gabe put it up for $525, BNIB, when they were sold out. I jumped on that like a fat kid on a candy bar. Why not? If I put a brand new one from inventory into my own collection, one I could have sold new for $675, and then later sold it, I might not have been able to get as much for it as Gabe did. I figured I'd save myself the depreciation, and jump on his at what I felt was a very fair price for something still in mint condition (but for some strap change marks on the underside of the lugs). 

HWA thinks I cost myself the difference between what I pay to have them made, and what I paid Gabe. I think I saved myself $150 and hours of work. The one I would have sold from inventory still sold from inventory, for $675. I might as well have bought the same exact piece later, for $150 less. What difference would it really make? 

Be opportunistic. If you're buying to OWN a watch, then OWN the watch. Keep it. Don't sell it. 

But, if you're going to be that guy who buys a watch, then sells it six months later when you want something else, maybe put a little more energy into taking advantage of a good deal when you see one, and waiting for a good opportunity before you sell one.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

My ears are ringing. Heres a vintage blue nacken. The real OG










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

And another thing who needs a Tiburon?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Just try to be as opportunistic as possible.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips. I don't think I'm a flipper. I rarely sell watches. A few times, I've sold off batches of watches I lost interest in after having them a long time. Its all funny money accounting in my head. Any proceeds from selling my Modern wouldn't really affect any future buying decisions.

I'm down for playing the long game moving it. Could you maybe knock off making them for a production cycle or two? ;-)

No plans of parting with my Nacken Vintage. That simple bastard is all ate up with cool.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Oh there is supposed to be some sort of logic in all this? 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> 1. My sons and I have watched every episode, multiple times. My son has been giving me regular updates about the new season, hopefully due soon. We always have a dozen queued up on the DVR. After the exchange last night, I watched "Look Who's Purging Now".
> 
> 2. I had no idea there was a Gerry Lopez. I had to look him up first, then look up his Seamaster. Typical Omega - looks exactly like a regular SMP GMT, but with a different caseback. Wildly creative, Omega.
> 
> ...


All I can hear is band manager Murray Hewitt from Flight of the Conchords. Except, that can't be right because they're Kiwis - not Australians.









*



*


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Team vintage blue
> 
> Straight OG
> 
> ...


Yep, that's the stuff right there.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

3WR said:


> There are a lot of cool subs. Pace yourself.
> 
> Also, you may want to wait and check out the 38mm orange-dial bronze three-hander with female endlink jubilee before you finalize your NTH shopping list.


Thanks but my taste is not yet advanced enough to appreciate bronze cases. They remind me of the cheapo Pulsar I owned in the early '90s before I knew sh*t about watches. But "pace yourself" is advice I need to hear. Also I have no idea what a female endlink is. I have no idea about many female things. Maybe I need to post that on the F71 "confessions" thread? What are some other cool NTH subs that I should consider? I am digging the Odin and Amphion no date versions at the moment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ike2 said:


> Thanks but my taste is not yet advanced enough to appreciate bronze cases. They remind me of the cheapo Pulsar I owned in the early '90s before I knew sh*t about watches. But "pace yourself" is advice I need to hear. Also I have no idea what a female endlink is. I have no idea about many female things. Maybe I need to post that on the F71 "confessions" thread? What are some other cool NTH subs that I should consider? I am digging the Odin and Amphion no date versions at the moment.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That second part was crazy talk - a mashup of elements you'll likely never see.

Nacken Vintage Blue
Bahia
Santa Cruz
Nazario Azzurro
Skipjack

Those are my favorites. I own 4 of those. Which is where that pacing advice came from. I finally pumped the brakes or else I'd have all 5.

NTH Subs have male end links. The center portion sticks out into the bracelet. Female end links would be the opposite. I didn't read any of this, but it has a useful picture.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/male-vs-female-end-links-4847393.html


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I sold a Commander 300 for $500 (full retail price, even though it was used, and 2 years old). I sold my Atomic Orange Orthos II for $600, $100 OVER full retail (it was used, but mint, one of only 6 produced). OMG! "Only" a Seiko NH35 in those! Highway robbery, right?
> 
> Dat habitual flipping some folks do is costing you some $$$. Gotta wait for your pitch, so to speak, and sell when the market wants to buy, not when you need the cash to buy something else.


That's kinda impossible to do with the subs, considering that there's an abundance of new batches every couple of months. The resale market for them is pretty dire, because the demand for used pieces just doesn't seem to exist. And since you don't seem to intend on stopping making new subs, I don't think advice like "wait a couple of months" is applicable, if one wants to avoid losing $$$ on reselling theirs.

It's kinda fun - in a masochistic way - to see your posts complaining about how low the second-sale prices for some subs are. Well, yeah. That's all on you, don't blame the sellers if you're making so many as to tank the demand.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I've personally never bothered trying to make money selling my watches. If I can make back what I paid, I take that as a win, I got to wear a free watch for awhile. I got a 100% return on my Evant Tropic and Zodiac Sea Wolf, the latter because I got it GM and the supply of those dried up. If I had paid anything close to retail, I would've taken a bath on it. Fortunately (or unfortunately) depending on how you look at it, you don't really see much in the way of GM Zodiacs anymore, which has done wonders for their resale value. 

Otherwise with the vast majority of sales I've lost 10-15% or so. When we're talking a $500 or $600 watch, that's not a huge deal. I'm not going to wait months patiently watching the classifieds and eBay listings so I can maybe make an extra $50. Fortunately the only sale that I've taken an absolute beating on was the very first watch I bought when I started wearing watches again, and that was because I was dumb enough to pay retail for it, and didn't realize that the resale value of Eco-drives is absolutely atrocious.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Doc - That $695 sale on ebay you referenced net the seller less than $605 after fees. Yes, still better than a comp on watch recon but eBay has driven a lot of people away. 

As far as resale goes. I'm worried about the amount lost, not the percentage. I'll take eating $200 on an nth every day over eating $1500 on a breitling, omega, whatever..


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

92gli said:


> Doc - That $695 sale on ebay you referenced net the seller less than $605 after fees. Yes, still better than a comp on watch recon but eBay has driven a lot of people away.
> 
> As far as resale goes. I'm worried about the amount lost, not the percentage. I'll take eating $200 on an nth every day over eating $1500 on a breitling, omega, whatever..


That's one of the reasons why I have a tough time justifying something much over $1K. My LE Seiko cocktails are both right around that mark, which I don't really mind as I don't intend to try and sell either of them, and there's really nothing else like them. The 3-hand Cocktail Times Seiko sells in the US with the 4R35/57 are nowhere NEAR as nice as these, and no other brand that I know of makes watches like these. The rest of my watches though are closer to $500, and if I lose a hundred bucks here or there on experiments like the Evant Decodiver or Visitor Vale Park Officer, it's not the end of the world, especially not when compared to something like an ETA Black Bay, which have lost a good $1K in value compared to when they were new.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Buying and selling watches is akin to commodities trading. Demand is king. I've tried to sell a couple and had no luck, so I put them back in the box and waited. A few sold later, but one in particular just made it back on my wrist and I've kept it. I wouldn't have bought it in the first place if I didn't like it. Maybe it will sell some day. I've also sold a couple others that I still "liked but didn't wear" and they went in an hour. Along those lines, I've had luck buying a "great deal" watch (see the Oberon for sale now) and then TRADING it for another version I wanted.

There's a true story about a guy who traded a paper clip for a house: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_red_paperclip

Be patient, take your time, and enjoy the process.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

There’s a lot of great tips in here and, ultimately, I think the answer is “it depends”.

Before this summer, I never really “flipped” a watch... I held them for quite some time before thinking of selling. Over the past few months, I’ve bought and sold a few watches and I’m not letting the buy/sell profit margin drive when I part with or pick up a watch. At this point, if I want something new, I ask myself what I would give up to get it. If there is something I want more than what I have, I’ll sell a watch. And I accept the loss.

This is part of the fun for me and, as I don’t have any other real hobbies other than chasing around my 2.5 y/o son, it’s a cost I can justify (my “bar” or “movie” money, so to speak). I’m under no illusion buying and selling watches makes sense.

And it’s been totally rad trying different subs and the DevilRay I had.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

yankeexpress said:


> Don't kid yourself, this Bahia photo of yours sold many watches


No kidding. If I was required to have only one automatic as my one and only, this would be it.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I tend to buy used, and at what I consider "good deal" prices. When those get flipped, I lose very little. I may have made money on a watch or two, but with most of them, I've paid a small percentage for whatever lesson they taught me or pleasure that I got out of them.

Bought the Scorpene BNIB at a substantial discount, for example, and should I sell it, expect to lose a small percentage of the price I paid. 

The Amphion Commando is one of the few watches I'll be buying new... but I honestly expect it will be a keeper.


----------



## rneiman3 (May 17, 2019)

docvail said:


> Yep. @mpsabdullah placed the first order on 10 October 2016. Looks like deliveries started in May 2017.
> 
> If we make more, my thinking was to use the Miyotas, not the STP's. We could shave about 0.5mm out of the total case thickness, maybe.
> 
> ...


If that comes to fruition, COUNT ME IN!!!!!!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Thanks but my taste is not yet advanced enough to appreciate bronze cases. They remind me of the cheapo Pulsar I owned in the early '90s before I knew sh*t about watches. But "pace yourself" is advice I need to hear. Also I have no idea what a female endlink is. I have no idea about many female things. Maybe I need to post that on the F71 "confessions" thread? What are some other cool NTH subs that I should consider? I am digging the Odin and Amphion no date versions at the moment.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He was jerking your chain, describing a mashup of things I'd likely never produce. Actually, he might have been jerking my chain.

Definitely pace yourself. Way too many noob watch geeks get a little "BUY ALL THE WATCHES" crazy at first. While it seems like a thrill ride while it's happening, you end up with a bunch of stuff you really don't want as your tastes change, and aren't likely to sell for very much.

That said, if you can restrain yourself somewhat, and focus on quality over quantity, there's often enough resale value in the better micros to make taking a chance on one less risky. As an example, you're not going to lose much money buying, then selling a Magrette. You're practically guarantee to make money on a Halios (if you can even get one). NTH is somewhere in that mix, I think.



3WR said:


> That second part was crazy talk - a mashup of elements you'll likely never see.
> 
> Nacken Vintage Blue
> Bahia
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > I sold a Commander 300 for $500 (full retail price, even though it was used, and 2 years old). I sold my Atomic Orange Orthos II for $600, $100 OVER full retail (it was used, but mint, one of only 6 produced). OMG! "Only" a Seiko NH35 in those! Highway robbery, right?
> ...


It's actually quite possible to do. Like I said, it's about timing, maybe.

When we delivered the Commander 300, we delivered about 200-225 of 250 pieces, all at once. Typical of WIS and their tendencies, a lot of those guys already had their eye on something else by the time we made delivery, and so a lot of those pieces hit the used market after being worn just a few times, and sold for not much more than the pre-order price of $350, some for less.

Six months later, they were all sold out, and all the early-flip pieces had been cleared out of the used market. All of a sudden, you couldn't get one for less than $500. I bought one for $300, 2 years later, and immediately flipped it for $500. That guy who sold it to me could have gotten $500 for it, if he'd been more opportunistic. So could all the early flippers.

With the Subs, there are 30+ versions, many more than that if you count date/no-date options. We don't make and stock them all at the same time. If you look at specific models, there are rarely too many of any of them for sale at any given time. In fact, most of the early models, especially the ones we rarely produce now, are rarely if ever available.

We made the Scorpene Black in the first production run, in 2016. We didn't make them again until this year. There was a three-year window of opportunity if you had one and were looking to flip.

We made the Amphion Dark Gilt in very small numbers, back in 2017. I wasn't looking to gouge anyone when I sold mine, and certainly wouldn't have taken advantage of MikeyT when he bought it from me last year. But if someone wanted one badly enough to appear out of nowhere and offer me more than he paid for it (like what happened with my Orthos II), yeah, I'd have sold it, in an opportunistic way, because I understand that's how supply and demand works.

We might make 300-600 NTH Subs available with each release, and lately, it's been smaller batches, coming more frequently. This year is the first time we've made any model more than once in the same year. We rarely make more than 25-50 pieces of any one version at any one time. If they sell quickly, and we think there's still demand, we'll make more. But otherwise, we'll hold off, and wait for demand to build back up again. During that time, there's your opportunity to sell.

I'm not blaming anyone for anything, just observing WIS habits. What I see isn't just about my brand, but about what I see happening with ALL watches, from all brands, and WIS tendencies.

Why give me a hard time about it? I'm trying to help people get more value out of what they sell. Don't shoot the messenger. If you want to flip your new watches for a 20%-30% loss every six months, be my guest.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Doc - That $695 sale on ebay you referenced net the seller less than $605 after fees. Yes, still better than a comp on watch recon but eBay has driven a lot of people away.
> 
> As far as resale goes. I'm worried about the amount lost, not the percentage. I'll take eating $200 on an nth every day over eating $1500 on a breitling, omega, whatever..


Honestly, I can't remember the last time I tried to sell anything on ebay. I'd heard some grumbling about their changes lately, but didn't pay much attention. If that seller got $90 less (13%?) because they hiked their fees, that's a shame.

I've noticed that resale value on NTH has gone up since we stopped doing dis-counted pre-orders. I've spent a lot of time observing WIS behavior and trying to reason my way through what I see to reach logical conclusions.

I think that the attitude among many guys on WUS is that you should NOT make money with your sales, and in fact, you should always LOSE money, and there seems to be some unwritten rules about how much.

Why?

Am I the only one who sees the connection between "no lowball offers" comments/threads, the attitudes on display, the online discussion, the "profiteering" talk when there's some insane deal on Kontikis or when the latest batch of Halios Seaforths get flipped for double on eBay? To me, it's all connected. If you guys don't see the connections, let me help you out...

There are many guys out there who don't feel as friendly about these things as many of you do. They want you to buy new, pay full retail or get a discounted pre-order, then turn around and flip a BNIB piece for a loss. They're the ones who make the lowball offers, and hammer your inbox with arguments about why you should accept their offer.

They may be the same guys who want to argue "value for the money" with me and other brand owners. They're ruthless, cut-throat, and greedy, which is ironic, as those are the labels they apply to me, my fellow brand owners, and anyone who tries to sell a watch those guys want for a price that's more than they want to pay.

Those guys are out there. They're playing you. And you let them, when you play the game by the rules they want to enforce.

Why do that? Why play the game the way they want you to? I don't, not when I'm selling used, and certainly not in how I run my business. I play to win.

There's no moral imperative to sell your watch for less than the the person who wants it most is willing to pay for it. That's the BS that gets tossed around by the guys who want you to finance their desires.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Some watches I flip at cost because I feel like it’s good karma. Other non-karma watches, I get what I can. 

Mostly, it’s mood (read: alcohol) related. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

The market for the older more limited Subs suffers from condition and the older bracelet. The Oberon listed has had its price reduced a few times and is still available for purchase. I don't know its condition but demand doesn't seem to be there..

The Subs that move quickly on the secondary market are the ones priced significantly below 'market'. These pop up once in a blue moon here on the sales forum but more frequently on eBay..

The difference is that true WIS's know what to pay versus the more uninformed on eBay. I've sold limited edition Devil Ray's on eBay for.$715.+. I've sold Subs with the new bracelet for retail there. Won't happen here. Trick is to wait for reduced end value fee promotions to list..

I've also bought like new Subs on eBay for less than.$450. It works both ways..

If you're a known flipper you should be grabbing your watches on eBay. That way you have the proper margins in place to flip at will..

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> Honestly, I can't remember the last time I tried to sell anything on ebay. I'd heard some grumbling about their changes lately, but didn't pay much attention. If that seller got $90 less (13%?) because they hiked their fees, that's a shame.


Yup, eBay takes 10% and PayPal takes 3%. I'd personally rather sell a watch on WUS for $550 using PP F&F than try and sell for ~$633 on eBay to net the same.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> ...Be opportunistic. If you're buying to OWN a watch, then OWN the watch. Keep it. Don't sell it.
> 
> But, if you're going to be that guy who buys a watch, then sells it six months later when you want something else, maybe put a little more energy into taking advantage of a good deal when you see one, and waiting for a good opportunity before you sell one.


Just to clarify / emphasize this point...

I'm not blind to WIS tendencies, or unrealistic about people's ability to do what I'm suggesting.

Most WIS are just buying what they want, more-or-less when they want it, and taking their lumps when they sell. If you're cool with that, and accept that it's just how things go, I have no problem with it.

But, if you're cool with that, are you also the guy complaining about resale values? Because, that's partially, if not mostly on you and the guys doing the same thing, when you all flip new watches for a loss after only wearing them a handful of times, with no regard for what it takes to get better value for what you sell.

I mentioned Gabe. I'm sure he's told me and others that he's not always buying watches he thinks he'll love and keep. In fact, he readily admits he doesn't always know in advance what he'll like or what he won't. He just maximizes the value of his buying by looking for good deals, as well as taking full advantage of all those rewards points, rebates, discount codes, etc. He's got it down to a science, and like every scientist, he doesn't let his emotion or desire for an object cloud his judgment.

When he sells, he knows how to sell. He takes good pics. He does his pricing research. I think he always keeps one eye on the used market, so he knows WHEN to sell. He knows how to list a watch so that he gets more for it, and more quickly.

Does that sound like "fun" to you? It doesn't sound like fun to me. No doubt, Gabe's enjoyed owning a LOT of watches, many of which were VERY nice. I lost count, but I recall him showing me and others a list with more than 70 watches on it. Honestly, I *HATE* selling used watches. I'm not nearly as good at it as Gabe is, and I don't put nearly as much effort into it when I do. Gabe actually enjoys the flipping. It's like a competition to him, and he's on a winning streak.

My results aren't as good as Gabe's. I don't blame the brands for the prices I sold my used watches for. I own the brand that made most of the watches I've sold. I blame myself as the seller for not doing all I could to get full value for them.

That said, a lot of guys are handicapping themselves doing it the typical WIS way, flipping BNIB pieces with lame ads, terrible pics, no attention paid to the market's appetites, and a too-nice-for-their-own-good attitude, which plays right into the hands of the multitude of vultures online.

A lot of guys are willing to "pass the deal onto the next guy", but you don't really know who the next guy is. I know MikeyT, and Caleb, who bought my Helson Sharkmaster (for not much less than I paid for it). The guy you're passing the deal onto could be one of those bastards who's constantly online trying to guilt others into giving them a good deal, just so they can turn around and flip for a profit. You know they're out there.

Like watches, but not planning to make yourself a flip-master, like Gabe? Okay, then buy to own, not to sell. Don't bother thinking about, much less discussing resale value. Stop financing your next purchase with the proceeds from selling your last purchase. Stop listening to what the crowd of vultures says about the used market, and giving away so much value. Your loss is often some other guy's profit.

If you're going to flip, no matter what your best intentions, then buy used, not new. If you buy new, figure out if you want to keep the watch right away, and if not, return it for a refund before you wear it*. Take better pics, post better ads, go where the prices are higher and there are more buyers, and pay attention to the market, so you give yourself at least a fighting chance to survive.

*When I see a guy selling a BNIB, still in as-delivered condition NTH for less than full price, I'll often message him, and tell him to return it for a refund. I don't get why anyone would sell a watch for less than they paid if they could just return it for 100% of their money back. I'm not kidding. I've done this with PM's through WUS and on eBay. I don't care if it's past our 30 day returns policy. If it's a newer model, and still in as-delivered condition, I'll take it back. I'm sure most retailers would, too, especially if we're low on stock of that model.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> Honestly, I can't remember the last time I tried to sell anything on ebay. I'd heard some grumbling about their changes lately, but didn't pay much attention. If that seller got $90 less (13%?) because they hiked their fees, that's a shame.
> 
> I've noticed that resale value on NTH has gone up since we stopped doing dis-counted pre-orders. I've spent a lot of time observing WIS behavior and trying to reason my way through what I see to reach logical conclusions.
> 
> ...


This is an easy and simple one. IMHO
I see this among any number of hobbies and life in general and it boils down to simple human nature.

If someone is selling something they want to get every penny they can *"their stuff is golden"*. If someone is buying something they want it as cheap as possible *"your stuff is crap"*.

Knowing which side of the transaction you are own is key. The above does not always ring true of course but, it is what I like to call "consistent".

Most arguments on the above normally come down one side or the other of the that coin.
IMHO


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Buy to own, wear, gift and enjoy. Rarely flip any. Hope my heirs like them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> The market for the older more limited Subs suffers from condition and the older bracelet. The Oberon listed has had its price reduced a few times and is still available for purchase. I don't know its condition but demand doesn't seem to be there..
> 
> The Subs that move quickly on the secondary market are the ones priced significantly below 'market'. These pop up once in a blue moon here on the sales forum but more frequently on eBay..
> 
> ...


All true, as far as it goes. And of course, there are variables beyond age, condition, and features like the bracelet.

You're somewhat making my point. The Oberon is listed on WUS, where a lot of people know it was one of the first NTH models, launched in 2016, originally sold at a discount in pre-order, etc, etc, etc. But it's the first one I've seen for sale in quite a while. What would happen if it was listed on eBay?

We can't know unless it happens. But just perusing the WUS listings and comparing to eBay, my sense of things is that if all other things are equal, ebay listings tend to fetch higher prices than WUS listings. And I'm just looking at sold listings on ebay, not pending sales.

When the Nacken Modern Blue blew up after appearing on the Urban Gentry, there was a period of time, longer than a year, when we just couldn't make them fast enough. Many sold on the used market for more than full retail. Now we've got supply catching up to demand, we still have some available new, and - SURPRISE - used market values aren't as high as they once were. I don't have any near-term plans to make more of them. We'll wait for the inventory we have to sell out, and used market values to indicate demand is back to being what we want it to be before we make more.

I've seen used Nazarios sell for more than full retail. Okay, depending on the version, we only made 25 or 50 of them, but...that's what we typically make of any version of the Subs. It's really unusual for us to produce more than 25-50 of any model at any given time, or for those models to be available again, new, within a year.

What's the difference between a sold out Nazario and a sold out Oberon, or Bahia? Sold out means there's no more supply of new pieces, meaning no ceiling on what a used piece can fetch on the open market. The sellers can set their prices higher, if they want to, and are smart enough to consider supply and demand.

The Barracuda Vintage Black blew up. It started selling for more than full retail. We made more, which aren't yet sold out, and mid-year always seems to bring a slow-down in watch-buying, so now used values are coming down again. I see it. Guess what? We don't have any plans to make more any time soon. Once the current stock is depleted, we'll wait a while for demand to build back up. There's your opportunity to sell again.

Like I said, I'm trying to help you guys. We don't make tons of any model, ever. Even the most popular models, like the Nacken Modern Blue and Barracuda Vintage Black - we're talking 300 pieces to date, at most. There's no reason to think that the market is just drowning in used pieces of every model. That's just not true. We have stock of some models now, but we're not in constant production on any model. Eventually, the supply of new pieces will be depleted, and the used market will reflect that.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Well, I do know this... if the market isn't ready for my Hollie right now, I will absolutely withdraw and hold (probably until Serious sells out) rather than sell for a low-ball offer (which I've received).

The process I've been going through this summer is really to find the two or three pieces that really speak to me, that I want to keep forever, and the only way to know that is to test drive them for a bit.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said: "We made the Amphion Dark Gilt in very small numbers, back in 2017. I wasn't looking to gouge anyone when I sold mine, and certainly wouldn't have taken advantage of MikeyT when he bought it from me last year. But if someone wanted one badly enough to appear out of nowhere and offer me more than he paid for it (like what happened with my Orthos II), yeah, I'd have sold it, in an opportunistic way, because I understand that's how supply and demand works."

Nope, you didn't take advantage of me. If I thought that you were, I'd not have bought it. As near as I can tell, I paid $460.00 all in. Would I have been delighted if the price was $50 less? Sure. I thought what you asked was reasonable though, so I bought the watch, and it is now the only Sub I own, along with a couple of L&H models.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

One variable which goes into pricing is the timeframe for selling a watch. Unexpected non-watch expense? Need money for that new, limited release? Need to sell that watch, like, NOW? That will indicate a lower price, just to get it gone and cash in your pocket.

Where you are just inviting the low-ballers and flippers, is actually saying this in your ad. Don't do that. No one cares about your reason for selling, so don't give them anything they can use against you. Kinda like talking to cops when they think you've done something wrong.

Also realize that if someone is in it to haggle, you don't have to take their first offer as the highest they will pay. (Which is also a great answer to "What's the lowest you will take?" -- What's the highest you will pay...?) If you have something listed at $500 and someone offers you $400, chances are, they are expecting to pick it up for $450. 

Back to timeframe -- do your research and find out what comp pricing looks like. If you have all the time in the world to sell it, list it nearer to the highest price you can find, or even a reach beyond that. The quicker you need to sell it, the more you should price it toward or lower than the bottom price in the range. 

Just like when you are participating in an auction, where you should have a max price you will pay, not a dime over, have a floor for how little you will accept for a watch when you list it. Could be the list price; could be something else. But if you have the time to sit on it, sit tight and wait for a better offer to come along. It will. Usually.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Toonces said:


> 1. I can't believe that I've never heard of Rick and Morty, but I just watched about 5 of those videos. OMG, where has this show been all my life?
> 
> 2. I had no idea there was a Gerry Lopez LE Seamaster. Way too cool.


The only thing that is different is the caseback, sapphire with hawaii


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

PixlPutterMan said:


> The only thing that is different is the caseback, sapphire with hawaii
> 
> View attachment 14409163


Just a heads-up -- those enamel backs are fragile. That 50th anniv. GMT model is always on my radar, and I can't tell you how many I've seen where a side of the back is chipped. Guy I know from a different forum advised sourcing a plain SM back and swapping it out, keeping the enamel back someplace safe, if it's going to be any kind of daily-wear watch. I mean, it's not like you can even see the caseback while you're wearing it, and taking it off to show someone is just another chance to drop it and chip the enamel...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> Where you are just inviting the low-ballers and flippers, is actually saying this in your ad. Don't do that. No one cares about your reason for selling, so don't give them anything they can use against you. Kinda like talking to cops when they think you've done something wrong.


Myeah, this is something that's been bugging me about selling stuff on WUS - this age-old tradition to give a reason why a watch his being sold. Everyone was doing it years back (and many still are), and tbh I have no idea why this tradition is worth following.

The worst thing is, in almost all of my sales for the last 2 years, I've gotten pm's asking "I might buy XYZ, but why are you selling it?".

On the one hand - I don't wanna send back a "none of your business", since that might end up in a lost sale and one more upset person angry at me for the rest of their life, but on the other hand - why the F. should I give out any information about why I'm selling or not selling something? The ad is the ad, the watch is the watch, the photos show how it looks, if I say it runs well, then it runs perfectly well, nothing else matters.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> He was jerking your chain, describing a mashup of things I'd likely never produce. Actually, he might have been jerking my chain.
> 
> Definitely pace yourself. Way too many noob watch geeks get a little "BUY ALL THE WATCHES" crazy at first. While it seems like a thrill ride while it's happening, you end up with a bunch of stuff you really don't want as your tastes change, and aren't likely to sell for very much.
> 
> That said, if you can restrain yourself somewhat, and focus on quality over quantity, there's often enough resale value in the better micros to make taking a chance on one less risky. As an example, you're not going to lose much money buying, then selling a Magrette. You're practically guarantee to make money on a Halios (if you can even get one). NTH is somewhere in that mix, I think.


Thanks for the advice Doc. I would have gotten the joke but for the 2 large bourbons doing their work on me at the time. Actually I do my research before I buy and have only ever sold one of my watches, which are up to 20 now. I keep them to wear and pass on to my boys. Will own one of yours before too long I think... In the meantime these discussions are interesting to follow.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I typically save this type of photo wackiness for my fellow brothers  , but a few rainy day thoughts...

1. 6" wrist, baby! The subs just flat out work for nearly any wrist. Big thumbs up!
2. The Odin is a strap monster.
3. Summer is over in Seattle.
4. I just got her wet going outside and must have negatively affected its resale.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> ...now the only Sub I own...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I know---don't let the door hit me on my way out. 'Bye.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Myeah, this is something that's been bugging me about selling stuff on WUS - this age-old tradition to give a reason why a watch his being sold. Everyone was doing it years back (and many still are), and tbh I have no idea why this tradition is worth following.
> 
> The worst thing is, in almost all of my sales for the last 2 years, I've gotten pm's asking "I might buy XYZ, but why are you selling it?".
> 
> On the one hand - I don't wanna send back a "none of your business", since that might end up in a lost sale and one more upset person angry at me for the rest of their life, but on the other hand - why the F. should I give out any information about why I'm selling or not selling something? The ad is the ad, the watch is the watch, the photos show how it looks, if I say it runs well, then it runs perfectly well, nothing else matters.


I think I've asked, and may have been asked. Can't really remember what I heard or said in either case. I doubt I ever used that info to my advantage, but now that we're talking about it, I can't say for sure that it wasn't used against me.

This is just another thing that goes into the mindset aspect of flipping. Obviously, the guy who bought my Orthos didn't need to ask why I was selling it, because he approached me. I mentioned I had too many watches and needed to do a sell-off, which prompted Mikey to ask about my Amphion. If you're buying a hard-to-find, in-demand piece, you don't ask, you just send the money.

But, yeah, any information you give away can be used against you by the buyer. I think there's a school of thought which believes "just not wearing it enough" keeps the market from thinking there's something wrong with the watch, but the market might also view that as an indication that you'd be happy with whatever you can get for it.

"Need money for a car repair" is going to drive people to low-ball you. Whereas, "raising funds for a grail" doesn't sound like it has the same sense of urgency. No urgency = no pressure to accept the first offer.

I don't necessarily think that a reason for the sale is going to help you, but if you feel like you must provide one, then think about how the wording might affect market perception. Just reason your way through it, logically.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> The only thing that is different is the caseback, sapphire with hawaii
> 
> View attachment 14409163


Yeah, I Googled it after I read your post.

Call me crazy, but that would have looked absolutely killer if they used the caseback as the dial. I love that logo.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Custom made oyster bracelet with glide-lock buckle for NTH diver watch! Wish there was a better shot of the endlinks.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143355439004


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Custom made oyster bracelet with glide-lock buckle for NTH diver watch! Wish there was a better shot of the endlinks.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/143355439004
> 
> ...


wot... looks like ginault..


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> Buy to own, wear, gift and enjoy. Rarely flip any. Hope my heirs like them.


Its funny that you've commented on this. I've recently recalled some of the group photos you've posted here and in other threads. And thought, "Now there is someone who doesn't give a rip about the size of their collection." Good for you.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ike2 said:


> Thanks but my taste is not yet advanced enough to appreciate bronze cases. They remind me of the cheapo Pulsar I owned in the early '90s before I knew sh*t about watches. But "pace yourself" is advice I need to hear. Also I have no idea what a female endlink is. I have no idea about many female things. Maybe I need to post that on the F71 "confessions" thread? What are some other cool NTH subs that I should consider? I am digging the Odin and Amphion no date versions at the moment.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


One more tip. Look back for some yankeexpress photos. One recent photo must have shown a dozen or better all together.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

liquidtension said:


> wot... looks like ginault..


 It looks like an effin Rolex. If you think it looks like a Ginault, try again.

That aside, here's my favorite part:

"Custom made for NTH watches ...

PLEASE DO NOT ORDER FOR ANY OTHER BRAND, WILL NOT FIT OTHER WATCHES

...

Made to fit 40MM Ginault case"

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Custom made oyster bracelet with glide-lock buckle for NTH diver watch! Wish there was a better shot of the endlinks.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/143355439004
> 
> ...


I bought the same-looking bracelet from this seller with the intention of using it on an NTH sub (however, there was no mention of NTH on the listing when I bought mine). It almost fit after an hour with a diamond file. The glide lock sucks, finishing blows, and the clasp bites.

Buy something else with your $65.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

The beads of rice bracelet takes things to another level. Just sayin'...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Peteagus said:


> I bought the same-looking bracelet from this seller with the intention of using it on an NTH sub (however, there was no mention of NTH on the listing when I bought mine). It almost fit after an hour with a diamond file. The glide lock sucks, finishing blows, and the clasp bites.
> 
> Buy something else with your $65.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have that clasp on a Steinhart jubilee. I concur with your first two critiques (not sure what you mean by the third).

BUT, I like glidelock-type functionality (really any quick adjust clasp system), however roughly executed (which I don't care about too much since it's under the wrist and I only adjust here and there as needed).

Until more brands offer such functionality, beggars can't be choosers. I'm content with mine in the absence of a better alternative, for what it's worth 

No idea whether just the clasp is compatible with an NTH bracelet, and regrettably not particularly motivated to take it off the Steinhart to find out :/

I'll also add that the rough finishing does tend to scratch the links closest to the clasp on one side over time with use of the glidelock-type mechanism. So I imagine the idea is going to annoy Doc (who I anticipate will say "I don't care, do you, but don't come to me after").

I suppose if enough people in here care, it might motivate me to spend some time to check.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I have that clasp on a Steinhart jubilee. I concur with your first two critiques (not sure what you mean by the third).
> 
> BUT, I like glidelock-type functionality (really any quick adjust clasp system), however roughly executed (which I don't care about too much since it's under the wrist and I only adjust here and there as needed).
> 
> ...


Agree. I installed the entire eBay glidelock bracelet on this modded Barracuda which I obtained at a big discount as it was missing the OEM NTH bracelet. Really like the Glidelock feature


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



yankeexpress said:


> Agree. I installed the entire eBay glidelock bracelet on this modded Barracuda which I obtained at a big discount as it was missing the OEM NTH bracelet. Really like the Glidelock feature
> 
> [/IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/rs4NMy0Z/1964-E4-CC-65-D3-42-F8-BDA1-5322464-A2-A2-B.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> [/IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/MGFb3vfm/B1-F4-E645-3721-43-B3-9-BE2-670-B0-F5-D8-F8-C.jpg[/IMG]


Kewl.

Since the whole aftermarket setup seems to work well enough, my motivation to try just the clasp on the OEM bracelet is now even less. (Plus the last time I tried to do something roughly akin to this-fit an Uncle Seiko BoR to my DR-all I got out of it was a need to brush some scratches out of the bottom of the, and case side between the, lugs, and some aftermarket spring bars I don't need.)

For now I'll just recommend that anyone interested follows yankee's lead and spends the extra $15 over just the clasp to get the whole aftermarket bracelet 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I have that clasp on a Steinhart jubilee. I concur with your first two critiques (not sure what you mean by the third).
> 
> BUT, I like glidelock-type functionality (really any quick adjust clasp system), however roughly executed (which I don't care about too much since it's under the wrist and I only adjust here and there as needed).
> 
> ...


You're right! I should have said that i was disappointed for the price I paid. You can get (probably) the exact same bracelet shipped from China for like $30. Better proposition that way. Buy the cheap one!

Also, I believe the bracelet clasp is 16mm, and NTH bracelets taper to 18mm

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Peteagus said:


> You're right! I should have said that i was disappointed for the price I paid. You can get (probably) the exact same bracelet shipped from China for like $30. Better proposition that way. Buy the cheap one!
> 
> Also, I believe the bracelet clasp is 16mm, and NTH bracelets taper to 18mm
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Word. #aliexpress

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On a scale of one to odd, I can't even...


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Myeah, this is something that's been bugging me about selling stuff on WUS - this age-old tradition to give a reason why a watch his being sold. Everyone was doing it years back (and many still are), and tbh I have no idea why this tradition is worth following.
> 
> The worst thing is, in almost all of my sales for the last 2 years, I've gotten pm's asking "I might buy XYZ, but why are you selling it?".
> 
> On the one hand - I don't wanna send back a "none of your business", since that might end up in a lost sale and one more upset person angry at me for the rest of their life, but on the other hand - why the F. should I give out any information about why I'm selling or not selling something? The ad is the ad, the watch is the watch, the photos show how it looks, if I say it runs well, then it runs perfectly well, nothing else matters.


I agree in Princiapl. One thing I would add though is, by asking, you might gain additional information about the watch (ie I wore it alot and now don't, it sat in my box and never wore it, etc.)

you also might gain a little leverage advantage.

Also indicates what type of seller they might be which could be used to determine what type of person owned the watch (this is all inference). The seller can choose the tone he uses while also still saying "none of your business" and I would be fine.

Nothing much and it's not a big deal but just some of the thought processes that take place (not generalizing everyone)

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## cowbel (Jul 16, 2018)

RmacMD said:


> I bought this ....
> View attachment 14307565
> 
> after seeing this photo
> ...


See you at district time then . Check near Gavox , I'll be there

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> On a scale of one to odd, I can't even...
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Whats you favorit cut of beef?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

WIAA's new video on Aevig Huldra gen2:


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

hwa said:


> It looks like an effin Rolex. If you think it looks like a Ginault, try again.
> 
> That aside, here's my favorite part:
> 
> ...


I'm emailing the seller right now. Telling him that if he posts a video of one of those bracelets fitting an Nth case without using a dremel on the endlinks I'll buy one immediately. I've already been burned twice. But I got the bracelets on alibaba for like $20 each. This one is probably exactly the same construction and quality (rough).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RPDK said:


> Whats you favorit cut of beef?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

ooooOOOOH! SHINEY!!! BLUUuuuuuE!!!


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

92gli said:


> I'm emailing the seller right now. Telling him that if he posts a video of one of those bracelets fitting an Nth case without using a dremel on the endlinks I'll buy one immediately. I've already been burned twice. But I got the bracelets on alibaba for like $20 each. This one is probably exactly the same construction and quality (rough).


Seller replied very quickly and said this photo came from a customer that bought one a few weeks ago


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Vanguard looks awesome. Those little yellow lines look much better in reality. Funny thing is I didn't like it in the rendering, but I loved the tikuna and don't like it in the flesh


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Wha... you saw the Tikuna live and in person?


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Mine is in decent shape but that's a good idea to get a plain back.



mconlonx said:


> PixlPutterMan said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing that is different is the caseback, sapphire with hawaii
> ...


----------



## rneiman3 (May 17, 2019)

I LOVE MY DEVIL RAY!!!!!


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

yankeexpress said:


> Buy to own, wear, gift and enjoy. Rarely flip any. Hope my heirs like them.


I hope you have lots and lots and lots of heirs. From what I see of your collection...


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

^Gurthang54 said:


> ooooOOOOH! SHINEY!!! BLUUuuuuuE!!!


Loving the 12 hour bezel

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> I hope you have lots and lots and lots of heirs. From what I see of your collection...


Maybe some he doesn't know about?


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> Buy to own, wear, gift and enjoy. Rarely flip any. Hope my heirs like them.


DAD!

I'm 45, if that narrows things...

Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> WIAA's new video on Aevig Huldra gen2:


Thanks for that, nice to finally get a real look at these. It looks like the transition from the brushed top of the case to the polished sides is considerably sharper than the somewhat rounded edge on the V1. On balance I definitely prefer the look of the V1. The sloping bezel insert means that the outer edge of the bezel is much shorter, which lowers the overall visual height of the watch, and I prefer the engraved lume on the insert on mine which adds depth and visual interest. The V2 is definitely more "vintage" looking, and I'm sure Chip will sell them by the boat load. Also nice to see that he fixed the bezel action and crappy lume issues on the V1.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14412625
> 
> 
> View attachment 14412631
> ...


Damn, bringing sexy back, Doc. VERY NICE.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Tanjecterly said:


> Wha... you saw the Tikuna live and in person?


I saw photos of a real one. A few pages back.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

92gli said:


> I saw photos of a real one. A few pages back.


Ah...


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Näcken - the water bender - NTH


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

You..... are actually handling your watch under a faucet?! The shock, the horror! Don't you know that a watch rated 300M WR *must always* be kept away from the water!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Was just thinking of the new Amphion, and how I really don't need more than one of any particular model like an NTH Sub (Sacreliege! Blasphemy! Get the torches and pitchforks!), so I thought about selling the Scorpene black w/ date. Someone actually PM'd me out of the blue, asking about a trade. So it got me pondering Doc's Words of WISdom. 

These were part of the newest release, which was -- what? -- like only 4-6 weeks ago? Already sold out. Best I can tell, it may still be available... in Hong Kong. Otherwise "out of stock," "sold out," "unavailable." Woah. That was quick. 

And none for sale atm, according to WatchRecon... hmm...


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Was just thinking of the new Amphion, and how I really don't need more than one of any particular model like an NTH Sub (Sacreliege! Blasphemy! Get the torches and pitchforks!), so I thought about selling the Scorpene black w/ date. Someone actually PM'd me out of the blue, asking about a trade. So it got me pondering Doc's Words of WISdom.
> 
> These were part of the newest release, which was -- what? -- like only 4-6 weeks ago? Already sold out. Best I can tell, it may still be available... in Hong Kong. Otherwise "out of stock," "sold out," "unavailable." Woah. That was quick.
> 
> And none for sale atm, according to WatchRecon... hmm...


Ask him what his best offer is. Can't hurt.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Tanjecterly said:


> You..... are actually handling your watch under a faucet?! The shock, the horror! Don't you know that a watch rated 300M WR *must always* be kept away from the water!


I don't want to go in detail here about this ... but I also shower with it daily and make sure to drop some shower gel on it. 

Its essentially 24/7 on the wrist and made me lose interest in new watches since they wouldn't get to steal much wrist time. That got me sort of out of the forums and left me with more fun money.

The Näcken is already over a year old, I plan to swap the gaskets once it hits 3 years. I think that's a reasonable maintenance interval if not an overkill for a watch that doesn't get any diving action.

Unfortunately my newly discovered hobby is not really cheaper to maintain...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I read a "what's your summer watch this year" post at Worn & Wound. One of the dudes posted a shot of his vintage Tudor sub on a tropic.

I was like, "wait a sec, I can make an NTH combo like that . . ."

Step 1










Step 2










Step 3










Here's to hoping I don't see a shot of a Tudor sub on a BoR. Because then I'll be "NTH sad" that the BoR initially struck me as a tad rich (price-wise) and now I can't have one 

(No worries. I know how to use Watchrecon.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Ask him what his best offer is. Can't hurt.


It can. If you ask me my "best price," i reach through the internet and slap you. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Seikogi said:


> I don't want to go in detail here about this ... but I also shower with it daily and make sure to drop some shower gel on it.
> 
> Its essentially 24/7 on the wrist and made me lose interest in new watches since they wouldn't get to steal much wrist time. That got me sort of out of the forums and left me with more fun money.
> 
> ...


"Soap" from the shower calls for quicker change of rubbers.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Seikogi said:


> Näcken - the water bender - NTH
> View attachment 14414633


Yep, but I'm not sure what is bending what... 









Doc Savage


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

hwa said:


> "Soap" from the shower calls for quicker change of rubbers.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


One would have to know the exact properties of the gasket in order to check the chemical resistance against the exposed materials. So I am missing crucial information here to make an informed decision.

However, I do check the gaskets on my watches and replace should they have cracks or feel "hardened". Not sure whether the NTH crown gasket is inside the case construction or crown, those are harder to swap.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Tanjecterly said:


> You..... are actually handling your watch under a faucet?! The shock, the horror! Don't you know that a watch rated 300M WR *must always* be kept away from the water!


I sometimes clean my watches not just with water, but with SOAP too. I'm surprised the impact of the Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate on the seals hasn't caused my watches to spontaneously shatter into a million pieces.

Also, Doc can probably speak to this better than I can, but changing the seals after 3 years seems EXTREMELY overkill, unless you're regularly doing dives in the dead sea. If you're worried, most watchmakers should be able to do a basic 10ATM pressure test just to make sure everything's on the up and up, but I would think more like 10 years would be appropriate.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> I sometimes clean my watches not just with water, but with SOAP too. I'm surprised the impact of the Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate on the seals hasn't caused my watches to spontaneously shatter into a million pieces.
> 
> Also, Doc can probably speak to this better than I can, but changing the seals after 3 years seems EXTREMELY overkill, unless you're regularly doing dives in the dead sea. If you're worried, most watchmakers should be able to do a basic 10ATM pressure test just to make sure everything's on the up and up, but I would think more like 10 years would be appropriate.


I don't know of any studies about this and there are many variables and opinions involved. I am sure there are tons of 10+ y.o watches that are still doing fine with their first gaskets. From what I have read, cert. divers should swap theirs every year and do pressure tests with their equipment.

One has also to consider the QC on the gaskets, some could have material defects that are not easily detected and a frequent swap would then increase the likelihood of failure.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14412635


*Bravo!*

I keep staring at this one. I like the proportions of the dial. Markers are cool. Yellow is cool. Date window looks nice. Hands are bold and cool (maybe a tad close in size to each other? wondering about readability). That bezel finish remains a huge pro for the Subs in my opinion.

The only thing that is slightly interrupting my drooling is the 12 hour bezel. Haven't gotten used to that yet. I must not be as enlightened as everyone who wanted that. I'll get there. Pretty confident I'm going to want one of these.

** Not a request **

Maybe the thing that is throwing me off with the bezel is that there are a lot of details around the edge of the dial. (Looks great) And then on the next level out, it is framed by a relatively sparse bezel. If the bezel text had 4 periods between the numbers, it might reduce my eye twitching.

....10....11....\/....1....2....

EDIT: Similar to the dots on the Tikuna bezel.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm, too sparse? Yeah, might be. How about a bezel with (9|.30|10|.30|11|.30|*V*|.30|01|.30|02|.30|3...), to make it more interesting?


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I read a "what's your summer watch this year" post at Worn & Wound. One of the dudes posted a shot of his vintage Tudor sub on a tropic.
> 
> I was like, "wait a sec, I can make an NTH combo like that . . ."
> 
> ...


That looks killer! Cheapest Natos is selling off old straps for a few bucks. I ordered a tropic to see how I like that style. Can't wait to try it on my Nacken.

You probably saw, but NTH BoR are coming back. You can sign up to be notified. So availability concern (if not the price one) will be addressed.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Was just thinking of the new Amphion, and how I really don't need more than one of any particular model like an NTH Sub (Sacreliege! Blasphemy! Get the torches and pitchforks!), so I thought about selling the Scorpene black w/ date.
> ...


You're really boxing yourself in there! How about a policy shift to: "I don't need more than one Scorpene, more than one Amphion, more than one Nacken, more than one Barracuda, etc."


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

T-shirts?! Throw pillows?! When did this happen?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> That looks killer! Cheapest Natos is selling off old straps for a few bucks. I ordered a tropic to see how I like that style. Can't wait to try it on my Nacken.
> 
> You probably saw, but NTH BoR are coming back. You can sign up to be notified. So availability concern (if not the price one) will be addressed.


Thanks 

Tropics are my favorite rubber straps. They're not the most comfortable (relative to, e.g., Everest, biwi), but they look the coolest.

And thanks for the heads up. I'm on the NTH email list so I'll keep an eye out for the announcement (plus will sign up for any BoR-specific announcement if it exists) 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Thanks
> 
> Tropics are my favorite rubber straps. They're not the most comfortable (relative to, e.g., Everest, biwi), but they look the coolest.
> 
> ...


What are Everest and biwi?

BoR specific notification does exist:

https://nthwatches.com/collections/...ess-steel-beads-of-rice-bracelet-for-nth-subs


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> What are Everest and biwi?
> 
> BoR specific notification does exist:
> 
> https://nthwatches.com/collections/...ess-steel-beads-of-rice-bracelet-for-nth-subs


Yep just saw that and signed up. Thanks again for the heads up.

Everest is a sister brand to Monta. They predate Monta. They make expensive rubber straps for Rolex and now Tudor (and maybe now a few other luxury brands). I think they run about $200-250. While they carry sticker shock, their quality (e.g., suppleness) really is quite impressive, and they fit flush with the watch cases that they design them for. One (branded for Monta) is included, e.g., with the Monta OK if you order it on a bracelet (you also get a good quality nato made of an interesting material you don't often see in the full bracelet kit). You can also order a Monta watch on just the Everest strap to save a few hundred bucks relative to the full three-strap kit.

Their main aftermarket luxury rubber strap competitor is Rubber B. I haven't tried them but supposedly they're awesome too.

Biwi is the company that manufactures the rubber straps that were included with the Halios Seaforth. I found them to be thin and wonderfully supple. They end at a straight line rather than contouring to specific watch cases. I think they cost about half or more less than Everest and Rubber B straps. I think they run about $100.

I also like Crafter Blue rubber straps, as they're designed to fit flush with certain popular watches cases (I have one for my SKX007). They also have some interesting design choices (e.g., a carbon fiber pattern center strip). I think they run about $50. They're nowhere near as supple as the above options, though.

Otherwise, I just wear tropics. NTH, Uncle Seiko, and Zelos are the three types I think I currently have in my strap box. The Zelos one was included with my Horizons GMT. The other two I picked up separately.

I was lucky to get one of the last NTH tropics that Doc had lying around, which I was excited about since they were well reviewed in terms of price (very reasonable), overall aesthetic, historical authenticity (if I recall correctly close with minor deviations for functional reasons), lint resistance, length (on the shorter side which I appreciate), and function (great keepers, good not overly bulky buckle).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

rneiman3 said:


> I LOVE MY DEVIL RAY!!!!!
> 
> View attachment 14412817


Looking good


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Re - the correct interval for replacing seals...

I have no idea. If you're worried about water intrusion with an older watch, have it pressure-tested, and if need be, replace the seals.

Re - the hands on the Vanguard...

The hands look closer to each other in length within the pic which was re-posted because of the perspective. The hands are similar to (and may even be the same as, I'd have to check) the hands we used on the Antilles. I can't recall anyone complaining that they couldn't tell them apart.

Re - changing the bezel...

The pics I posted aren't of prototypes. The watches are made, and now in final QC. We'll be shipping these next month. If you want to add some marks to the bezel on one, be my guest. Go crazy with a sharpie. 

The Vanguard is the "dressy diver" of the Subs range. It wasn't meant to be the hardcore diver's hardcore diving watch. A less-busy 12 hour bezel may be more useful for someone wearing it in business settings or while traveling (the 12-hour bezel acting as the "poor man's GMT").

Re - branded swag...

We've had that set up for years. The swag store is a separate site. We just never did much to promote it. I mostly wanted it to be available for me to point to when someone asked why we don't have branded swag available. There you go. Go crazy. 

The only change is that we recently added a huge image with hyperlink to the swag store at the top of the accessories page on the NTH site. The link was always there, but judging by the emails we were getting, people were overlooking it. Boom. Now there's a huge, impossible to overlook pic.

Re - Monta vs. Everest...

Justin at Monta told me the two are distinct businesses, run separately, but with some common ownership. I think they want people to see them as separate businesses, which makes sense, I guess, notwithstanding the fact that the Monta straps appear identical to Everest straps, and are identically-priced.

Re - tropic straps...

It's somewhat surprising to me that tropic straps are suddenly so popular, and so widely available from so many different sellers. When we went looking for tropic straps to include with the Antilles and Azores, no one seemed to be talking about them, few people were selling them, and we had a hard time sourcing them.

Now, 2 years later, they're everywhere, it seems. Sort of like thin, 40mm, vintage-inspired dive watches, and lumed crowns. Go figure.

I got lucky finding a good vendor with an existing tropic strap design, ready to produce. Aaron kvetched that the shape of the tail was different from the original/vintage tropics, but I told him to put a cork in it, because that's a silly thing to kvetch about. 

At least from the supplier we used, there were only four materials choices - silicone, plus 3 different rubber compounds. I think a lot of people would either opt for the least expensive option, or they'd just assume that the strap quality is a result of using the most expensive compound. Rather than making my choice based on cost, I looked into the common uses for each compound, and compared their properties/benefits. 

These rubber compounds weren't invented to be made into watch straps. They were made for commercial/industrial use, and each compound was formulated for certain applications. I looked at each compound's intended application, thought about how that compared to the use/abuse most watch straps would be subjected to, and made my choice based on what I thought would offer the best balance of comfort and long term durability.

If I had to do it all over again, I'm pretty sure I'd make the same choice. More expensive isn't necessarily better.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> At least from the supplier we used, there were only four materials choices - silicone, plus 3 different rubber compounds. I think a lot of people would either opt for the least expensive option, or they'd just assume that the strap quality is a result of using the most expensive compound. Rather than making my choice based on cost, I looked into the common uses for each compound, and compared their properties/benefits.
> 
> These rubber compounds weren't invented to be made into watch straps. They were made for commercial/industrial use, and each compound was formulated for certain applications. I looked at each compound's intended application, thought about how that compared to the use/abuse most watch straps would be subjected to, and made my choice based on what I thought would offer the best balance of comfort and long term durability.
> 
> If I had to do it all over again, I'm pretty sure I'd make the same choice. More expensive isn't necessarily better.


Don't knock it out of hand, doc. And the three/four compunds you got offered isn't the entirety of what's available nowadays.

I got the Meraud tropic strap - and yes, it is silly expensive - but it is, genuinely, better than *any *rubber strap I've had from anywhere else.

better than the seiko sdbc053 strap (as soft or softer, more dense, not pulling dust), better than the rubber strap you sold alongside 1st gen subs (much more flexible, no artificial smell, less "sticky" to touch), better than the watchgecko / zuludiver "italian rubber" straps - both the dive ones and their version of the tropic (softer, no artificial smells, a bit more shiney, less "sticky").

And it has, quite frankly, a straight-up better mold shape. The "short" piece has a thinned out midsection and thickened ends, making it curve around the wrist properly. The lug ends are undercut to not rub against the case. The sides have the correct triangle profile. The buckle has a 75-degree bent pin, to sit better in the strap's holes. The strap has a thicker center ridge and a strong taper to the sides.

More expensive doesn't automatically mean better, no, but in the case of the Meraud Tropic, that strap is objectively better. period.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

3WR said:


> *Bravo!*
> 
> The only thing that is slightly interrupting my drooling is the 12 hour bezel. Haven't gotten used to that yet. I must not be as enlightened as everyone who wanted that. I'll get there. Pretty confident I'm going to want one of these.
> 
> ...


glad that's not a request...absolutely not

there are all manner of tool divers out there, the dressy diver segment is just waiting to be taken. a lot of folks in dress casual work environments (myself included) have been looking for clean divers...the barracuda vintage black hit it out the park, and the sparse bezel adds (not subtracts) to the look of a dressy diver. plus one on this design

nah on the dots...there are elevetyhundred other watches out there for that

looking to the present, and future. breitling super ocean heritage, sooner or later, nth is coming for you...and i'll be first in line

here's to dressier divers!


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

docvail said:


> The Vanguard is the "dressy diver" of the Subs range. It wasn't meant to be the hardcore diver's hardcore diving watch. *A less-busy 12 hour bezel may be more useful for someone wearing it in business settings* or while traveling (the 12-hour bezel acting as the "poor man's GMT").


dressy divers |>


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

How do I send a PM to Doc?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Don't knock it out of hand, doc. And the three/four compunds you got offered isn't the entirety of what's available nowadays.
> 
> I got the Meraud tropic strap - and yes, it is silly expensive - but it is, genuinely, better than *any *rubber strap I've had from anywhere else.
> 
> ...


Uhm...okay.

I don't think I mentioned the Meraud strap or any other, specifically. I didn't think I was knocking anything or anyone.

As it happens, I had a productive, very civil and informative exchange with someone on Facebook, who was able to compare the Meraud to the strap we sent out with the NTH Tropics. He said the Meraud was better, and gave some specifics. His opinion was and still is good enough for me. I've no problem with someone making a better strap.

I've no dog in the fight. NTH is sold out of tropic straps, and I'm not in any rush to make more. If I did, I'd probably make them the same way we did before, and unless my costs went up, I wouldn't change the price on them. I think the ones we had turned out well, the price was fair, and people seemed to like them very much.

That said, it's interesting to me that there isn't a lot of very objective info available about rubber straps. The sellers don't seem to feel the same pressure to disclose "specs" that watch sellers face. I get questions about which specific type of lume we use on this or that model, or if our watches are "ISO tested" for WR. Why don't rubber strap suppliers disclose which specific rubber compound they use?

I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus. These are just my observations, and me telling you of my experience.

When I found a tropic strap supplier, they gave me four materials choices, and prices for each, but that's all. They didn't give me any advice at all about which compound to choose, no info about how they compared in ways other than price, etc. When I went looking for rubber STRAP info, I couldn't find any that really told me anything.

I found sellers touting "natural rubber" straps. I later learned what we call natural rubber isn't really "natural", because it still has some petroleum content, according to someone who worked for a company producing truly natural rubber as a raw material. I found sellers advertising "vulcanized" rubber, but I'm pretty sure all the rubber used for straps is vulcanized, so that doesn't really tell us anything. I found very few if any sellers disclosing the compound used in their straps, and I had no information about how those straps held up over time.

If you were me, in that situation, faced with four materials choices, and not having much readily available info about any of them, or what any of your competition is doing, how would you make that choice?

I don't like to just jump onto whatever bandwagon is passing by, be it the ceramic bezel bandwagon, the Swiss movement bandwagon, or the X compound rubber strap bandwagon. I prefer to make informed decisions about the materials we use, so that I can understand how those choices impact the end-user and their user experience.

So, I did what I always do - I did some research, and read a lot, in order to educate myself enough to feel confident in the decision I made, confident enough to defend it if need be, or if not, at least explain why I made the decision I did.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jerseydan31 said:


> How do I send a PM to Doc?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You don't.

If you need to reach me privately, the contact page on the website is the best way. It's found under the FAQ's.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> You don't.
> 
> If you need to reach me privately, the contact page on the website is the best way. It's found under the FAQ's.


Ok done thx again!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)




----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> 
> Re - changing the bezel...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind invitation. ;-) Jeezum Pete.

I've hung around long enough to know the rules. Make a suggestion, get told to pack sand. I get it. You guys make the watches. If we like them, we buy the watches. But we can discuss preferences, can't we?

I think the Vanguard is great and basically said as much. The bezel may not be my exact preference. That's all I was saying. Plus a guess at what may be driving that opinion for me. I even prefaced my comment with a disclaimer that I wasn't making any sort of request.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

On the topic of rubber straps, whatever the SBBN033 Seiko Tuna strap is made out of, it is nice. I don't know all of the important qualities of rubber straps. But from a brief handling of it (no extended wear), it felt noticeably nicer than any of the other modern, soft Seiko straps - Turtles, Solar Tuna, latest Monsters, etc.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

The trick to some of the fun to be had in this thread is to 

(1) make a doc-inciting comment, 

(2) preemptively note how doc will likely respond to said comment,

(3) read probable WoT lecture, and 

(4) have [email protected]$$ retaliatory memes or gifs at the ready. 

Works every time for me.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Thanks for the kind invitation. ;-) Jeezum Pete.
> 
> I've hung around long enough to know the rules. Make a suggestion, get told to pack sand. I get it. You guys make the watches. If we like them, we buy the watches. But we can discuss preferences, can't we?
> 
> I think the Vanguard is great and basically said as much. The bezel may not be my exact preference. That's all I was saying. Plus a guess at what may be driving that opinion for me. I even prefaced my comment with a disclaimer that I wasn't making any sort of request.


Yes, you can discuss your preferences. Am I free to discuss the design as well, or is that not allowed?

Note that I didn't quote anyone else's comments in my post, because I know by now that when I do that, people often take umbrage, as if I'm attacking them personally, when I wasn't attacking anyone or anything, just merely responding to a discussion.

Are we going to play that game where the only responses I'm allowed are:

1. A completely insincere, corporate-speak "I'll consider it";

2. complete agreement; or

3. silence?

If people are going to act like I've slapped them every time I respond directly, yet courteously and without any defensiveness, just because I didn't offer acquiescence, that's a stupid game. I don't want to play.

You want to DISCUSS the design? Okay, I'll discuss it.

I don't appreciate when anything I say in response to someone's comments gets mischaracterized as "angry" (or whatever). I can't make the proposed changes, even if I wanted to, because the watches are already made. All I was doing was describing the thought process which went into our design.

Don't like it? Okay, no hard feelings, I mean it. Don't buy it, it's okay. Hopefully you'll like something else we make more. I'm not mad at anyone for disliking a design, whatever the reason.


----------



## The Dude Hank (Feb 19, 2018)

3WR said:


> On the topic of rubber straps, whatever the SBBN033 Seiko Tuna strap is made out of, it is nice. I don't know all of the important qualities of rubber straps. But from a brief handling of it (no extended wear), it felt noticeably nicer than any of the other modern, soft Seiko straps - Turtles, Solar Tuna, latest Monsters, etc.


I believe the new Seiko straps are actually made from silicone, not rubber. They wear great and are very comfortable, but due tend to collect dust, which bothers some folks.

The Dude Abides


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Can I play?

Doc: stop making all those 40mm watches. Recast them as 38mm, and you’ll be sure to sell two of them. Amirite @jelliottz?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Can I play?
> 
> Doc: stop making all those 40mm watches. Recast them as 38mm, and you'll be sure to sell two of them. Amirite @jelliottz?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This one required some epic phone photoshop skills to tweak for present purposes:










And my reaction whenever this comes up in the thread:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

hwa said:


> Can I play?
> 
> Doc: stop making all those 40mm watches. Recast them as 38mm, and you'll be sure to sell two of them. Amirite @jelliottz?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Three.


----------



## judg69 (Aug 31, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Doc, make more in 42-43mm , and I will be a multiples purchaser. I have nothing against < 40mm watches , but for me they flat out DO NOT work at all! Thank You


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



judg69 said:


> Doc, make more in 42-43mm , and I will be a multiples purchaser. I have nothing against < 40mm watches , but for me they flat out DO NOT work at all! Thank You


Luckily, in approximately five months...

Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Yes, you can discuss your preferences. Am I free to discuss the design as well, or is that not allowed?
> 
> Note that I didn't quote anyone else's comments in my post, because I know by now that when I do that, people often take umbrage, as if I'm attacking them personally, when I wasn't attacking anyone or anything, just merely responding to a discussion.
> 
> ...


If I may, the sharpie thing sounded jerky to me. (I'm willing to concede that may not have been the intent. I used to work with a dude from a different part of the country. It took a while to figure out that when he came across as abrasive, it was _usually_ just his delivery style.) And quotes or not, it was part of a response that was clearly prompted by a comment I'd made. So, now that I've looked up what that word means, yeah, umbrage.

I get the impression some of this is habitual boiler plate response to some watch geek complainer archetype from past exchanges. I mean, I specifically did not propose any changes. I praised the watch and said I'd probably want to get one. I know I don't have to buy one (because of course and because I've seen that advice offered here before). Just like I didn't have to buy any of the Subs I already have.

The crazy part is that when I wrote the comments about the Vanguard, I reread it before submitting and thought to myself, "Hmm, I mentioned something I don't love about it. That could be trouble. But surely I've said enough positive things to make it clear I do really like the watch. Yeah, OK, I think that is safe. Let it fly."

And finally, on the advice of forum counsel, I present a peace offering in the form of a meme. Here's hoping for de-escalation. I definitely don't want anything to dampen my hearty enthusiasm for the Subs.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



judg69 said:


> Doc, make more in 42-43mm , and I will be a multiples purchaser. I have nothing against < 40mm watches , but for me they flat out DO NOT work at all! Thank You


You have "69" in your name, so you get no votes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> You have "69" in your name, so you get no votes.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I disagree. Normally I am with you on this. Same goes for 420, BUT, when I read the username I immediately thought of the '69 GTO, the "Judge".









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Uhm...okay.
> 
> I don't think I mentioned the Meraud strap or any other, specifically. I didn't think I was knocking anything or anyone.
> [...]
> ...


Fair enough - I didn't intend to attack you or anything. Out of the four choices you had available, you probably made the right choice. I just wanted to mention that those 4 ain't the only options out there for people to pick between, and that it *is* possible to get even better compounds (currently, at greater cost to the end user) than the epdm/... that you had to pick between. Maybe, not from the suppliers that you have, but when it comes to us end-users, choosing e.g. aftermarket rubber straps, there are straight-up better options available.

Btw, the guy(s?) from Isofrane have purchased the "Tropic strap" brand (maybe trademark, idk) and are making their version of it, too. Using again a compound that looks and allegedly feels very similar to Meraud's. But, the interesting part? The Isofrane guy(s?) are starting to go after other sellers using the "tropic" name for rubber straps. (ref: https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/real-tropic-straps-back-5005745-22.html#post49695681 ). Maybe that will stick to ebay, or maybe soon we will have a situation similar to the "nato" trademark debacle...

Might be worth keeping an eye out, if you intend to release any nth watches with tropic(ish) straps.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

X2-Elijah said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > Uhm...okay.
> ...


They have trademark it. Unless you are selling a vintage authentic version of it you can else it will be removed. Stupid move.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> I disagree. Normally I am with you on this. Same goes for 420, BUT, when I read the username I immediately thought of the '69 GTO, the "Judge".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh. Horse of another color. Exception permitted also if birth year, grudgingly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

docvail said:


> Was that you asking me about the accuracy of your Everest on FB chat?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


No. Movements and their accuracy doesn't interest me anymore.

To keep things fresh I need a new thing ca every 6 months, with a proper potential for disappointment, to obsess over.

Now I'm trying to bake sourdough baguettes. Cheap, but very frustrating.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Andrjes said:


> No. Movements and their accuracy doesn't interest me anymore.
> 
> To keep things fresh I need a new thing ca every 6 months, with a proper potential for disappointment, to obsess over.
> 
> Now I'm trying to bake sourdough baguettes. Cheap, but very frustrating.


It's all in the starter. Gotta hang around SF kitchens.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

hwa said:


> It's all in the starter. Gotta hang around SF kitchens.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Very true.

You Make My Dreams is pretty much the perfect song for slapping and folding. I run it on repeat until the gluten is just right. Four times usually does it.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I love it when I get up in the morning and am greeted with a lively debate about debating. This thread never fails to keep me chuckling...

On a semi-related note, I'm EXACTLY that guy for whom the Vanguard is targeted. I have a box full of GMT watches, but it will be so nice to just twist the bezel and track the local time. 

I can't wait. 12-hour bezels are epic.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> If I may, the sharpie thing sounded jerky to me. (I'm willing to concede that may not have been the intent. I used to work with a dude from a different part of the country. It took a while to figure out that when he came across as abrasive, it was _usually_ just his delivery style.) And quotes or not, it was part of a response that was clearly prompted by a comment I'd made. So, now that I've looked up what that word means, yeah, umbrage.
> 
> I get the impression some of this is habitual boiler plate response to some watch geek complainer archetype from past exchanges. I mean, I specifically did not propose any changes. I praised the watch and said I'd probably want to get one. I know I don't have to buy one (because of course and because I've seen that advice offered here before). Just like I didn't have to buy any of the Subs I already have.
> 
> ...


I'm rarely put out when someone says there's something they don't like about a design.

I'll likely be put out if any response I offer, however dry (relatively, considering the source), gets characterized as being angry/defensive, whatever. And, it happens a lot. I get tired trying to defend my responses because someone else misread tone in a typed response.

All I can do to avoid sounding "jerky", is to make my responses sound even more "habitual boilerplate": "The watches are already made. So we can't make any changes," versus whatever I said or might say.

But I always fear that giving that sort of response will lead to someone assuming I'm being curt because I'm put out, or that they'll be put out because I even bothered to offer such a dismissive response. I worry people will think me rude if I ignore their comments. I worry about being seen as rude if my response is too short.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't, so to speak.

I get the sense guys like to hang around and read my colorful responses. I'm not *trying* to be colorful. That's just how I and all my friends who grew up where I did talk. I'd be trying to be less colorful if I was trying to avoid sounding jerky. It would be forced, and I don't think I'd be able to do it consistently. It's like asking someone to speak with a different accent.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Fair enough - I didn't intend to attack you or anything. Out of the four choices you had available, you probably made the right choice. *I just wanted to mention that those 4 ain't the only options out there for people to pick between*, and that it *is* possible to get even better compounds (currently, at greater cost to the end user) than the epdm/... that you had to pick between. Maybe, not from the suppliers that you have, but when it comes to us end-users, choosing e.g. aftermarket rubber straps, there are straight-up better options available.
> 
> Btw, the guy(s?) from Isofrane have purchased the "Tropic strap" brand (maybe trademark, idk) and are making their version of it, too. Using again a compound that looks and allegedly feels very similar to Meraud's. But, the interesting part? The Isofrane guy(s?) are starting to go after other sellers using the "tropic" name for rubber straps. (ref: https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/real-tropic-straps-back-5005745-22.html#post49695681 ). Maybe that will stick to ebay, or maybe soon we will have a situation similar to the "nato" trademark debacle...
> 
> Might be worth keeping an eye out, if you intend to release any nth watches with tropic(ish) straps.


Here's the thing, as I'm thinking about it...

I read or heard that Meraud's public statements alluded in some way to finding/using some sort of new compound. Okay. I'm not saying I don't believe them. I take most companies' claims at face value, generally, depending on how tame or absurd they sound.

But, at the same time, it's not altogether uncommon for companies to engage in a bit of hyperbole within their promotion, or to bend the truth a bit. Logically, if they haven't disclosed what the compound is, or at the least, come out and said, definitively, that it ISN'T one of those other compounds available to others like me, how do you or I know for certain it's any different?

Again, I'm not trying to subtly imply that I've got doubts. All I have are questions. I know for certain I've had straps made of 3 of the 4 materials which were available to me, as well as "natural" rubber, which wasn't an option from that supplier. I'm not sure if I've ever felt a strap made of the fourth option they gave me. I didn't use it because I didn't think it would feel as close to natural rubber, which was the benchmark I was using. But maybe I chose wrong.

Again, put yourself in my position. It's natural for me to wonder if Meraud or some other company isn't using exactly that compound, perhaps making a wiser or more informed decision than I did.

Maybe they're just using natural rubber. I was investigating an alternative to the commonly available natural rubber, which was even more natural, but it wasn't yet a viable alternative. Maybe they figured out how to use that. I don't know, because as far as I know, they haven't disclosed what the material actually is.

I also tend to wonder how much of people's quality perceptions are influenced by price. Research into consumer psychology has proven that people generally perceive higher-priced goods as being higher quality, whether they are or not.

Aside from the material chosen, which I think we all agree is a key driver of whether or not we like a rubber strap, and how much we like it, I do appreciate your comments about the way the Meraud strap is formed (its shape) as being a better design than what we produced. I think that's a great insight, and very interesting. Since I didn't design our strap, I have no feelings about it, at all.

Even if they used the same compound I did, if they came up with a better design, and put the work into finding a vendor to make it the way they wanted it, then I say bravo, and they should be able to charge more for it if the market agrees it's a superior product, just like a watch brand should be able to charge more for a superior design, even if there are other watches with the same specs/components selling for less.

As for the new Tropic(TM) strap - I have mixed feelings, at least about the fact that they trademarked the name. Whereas the USPTO granting a trademark on the term "NATO" was clearly a huge blunder, I don't know nearly enough about the history of "tropic" straps to know whether or not the term was a brand name that should be protected or simply a generic term that shouldn't be.

I'm always interested to observe people's reactions, though, when the asking price for anything is substantially higher than comparable alternatives. I wonder how much of the price premium is a function of people simply perceiving higher quality (whether it's there or not), people wanting the association with the "official" brand, the costs being higher for some reason, etc.

I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. I know there are some sellers who are getting an enormous price premium for their straps, much of it "unearned" based on costs alone. It's all very interesting for me to observe, and think about, as it pertains to my own business, and how people's perceptions can be affected by psychological effects.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

You want dots on your new release NTH bezel? Get an Amphion Commando. And TWO rows of numbers!

But really, let's face it, dots are weaksauce - go dashes or go home.


----------



## judg69 (Aug 31, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

To haw and Dub Rubb - The 1969 GTO Judge was my first car and I owned it from February, 1969 to summer of 1980. We had one child at the time and another on the way . I absolutely loved that car and my wife and I hated selling it, it was like selling a large part of my heritage or persona!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

On a somewhat related note, I've never had a sourdough baguette, but hot damn that sounds pretty friggin' tasty!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



judg69 said:


> To haw and Dub Rubb - The 1969 GTO Judge was my first car and I owned it from February, 1969 to summer of 1980. We had one child at the time and another on the way . I absolutely loved that car and my wife and I hated selling it, it was like selling a large part of my heritage or persona!


Your real name isn't Reese Bobby, is it?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> On a somewhat related note, I've never had a sourdough baguette, but hot damn that sounds pretty friggin' tasty!


If you're ever near Monterey, CA, stop down on Fisherman's Wharf, for some New England clam chowder in a sourdough bread bowl.

Thank me later.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

You know, I've looked at some of the straps made by a rather popular company that makes a very specific type of rubber strap for much more than just about everyone else. I've seriously considered picking one up a number of times, but I find it hard to pay $125 or so for a rubber strap. Perhaps I'm being unreasonable; maybe it really is worth that much because it's just so awesome.

There just seems to be some threshold where I simply go, "too much for that." I picked up a similar style strap from a competitor, and I liked it so much that I bought 2 more. That's three of the rubber straps for less than the price of one of the pricey originals, and they feel pretty darn comfortable to me.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



judg69 said:


> To haw and Dub Rubb - The 1969 GTO Judge was my first car and I owned it from February, 1969 to summer of 1980. We had one child at the time and another on the way . I absolutely loved that car and my wife and I hated selling it, it was like selling a large part of my heritage or persona!


Nice tie-dye, too! make it a party!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> If you're ever near Monterey, CA, stop down on Fisherman's Wharf, for some New England clam chowder in a sourdough bread bowl.
> 
> Thank me later.


NE clam chowder on the wrong coast. Smh.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> NE clam chowder on the wrong coast. Smh.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Monterey is on the ocean. That whole part of Cali has great seafood. There are only two types of clam chowder I know about - New England, and Manhattan, which is also on the East Coast. No matter which way I went there, the result would have been the same.

Deal with it...

(...by getting some of that delicious clam chowder in a fat sourdough bread-bowl, down on Fisherman's Wharf, if you're ever in Monterey, CA, and if you do, thank me later).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Toonces said:


> You know, I've looked at some of the straps made by a rather popular company that makes a very specific type of rubber strap for much more than just about everyone else. I've seriously considered picking one up a number of times, but I find it hard to pay $125 or so for a rubber strap. Perhaps I'm being unreasonable; maybe it really is worth that much because it's just so awesome.
> 
> There just seems to be some threshold where I simply go, "too much for that." I picked up a similar style strap from a competitor, and I liked it so much that I bought 2 more. That's three of the rubber straps for less than the price of one of the pricey originals, and they feel pretty darn comfortable to me.


You can say "Isofrane". We all know which strap you're talking about.

I've had one, by way of a giveaway, but never wore it. I'm not all that into rubber straps anyway, and I like straps that taper.

The guys who like them seem to love them, and defend them as being worth the money. Maybe they are. Maybe those guys don't want to admit to others or themselves that they might have over-paid.

I've seen other guys say some of the Alsofranes on sale from various other sources are just as good, or damned close, for a lot less money. I can't say if they're right, because I can't remember ever seeing one in hand.

What I do know is that Isofrane sources their straps from one of the same suppliers I do. They must have some sort of contractually-enforced exclusivity deal on the design, though, so no one else can get those same straps from that same supplier. But, I don't need to buy the same straps to take a guess about what they probably cost to produce, having bought other straps (albeit, with a different design), from the same source, using the same materials.

Let's just say, Isofrane has a sweet deal going, and I can understand why some guys wouldn't want to pay the asking prices. I figure it'll be much the same with the new Tropic(TM) straps.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The Dude Hank said:


> I believe the new Seiko straps are actually made from silicone, not rubber. They wear great and are very comfortable, but due tend to collect dust, which bothers some folks.
> 
> The Dude Abides


The new Seiko straps are insane.

I want to know how they got them to be as comfortable as they are, considering the old SKX silicone straps were stiff enough to use as a weapon in knife-fighting class.

I haven't noticed mine picking up lint, but I'm not the sort to notice it much if they did, and my SBDC on that strap hasn't gotten tons of wear, so maybe that has something to do with it.

But, f'rizzle, those straps are seriously comfortable.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Andrjes said:


> Very true.
> 
> You Make My Dreams is pretty much the perfect song for slapping and folding. I run it on repeat until the gluten is just right. Four times usually does it.


Wait...I gotta review the tape...

Yep, there we have it folks, the thread's first official Hall & Oates call-back diss.

I think we're done here. No need to keep discussing anything. There's your ending. Fade to black. Roll credits.


----------



## judg69 (Aug 31, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Your real name isn't Reese Bobby, is it?
> 
> View attachment 14420187


Real name Jim Bob Tinkleford III , Jr , but you can call me JimBob, or JuJuJu!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



judg69 said:


> Real name Jim Bob Tinkleford III , Jr , but you can call me JimBob, or JuJuJu!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


If that's really your name, it's quite the mouthful.

There's a WUS user with a handle that ends in Huskinson. I think I once called him "husky-kisser". It wasn't my best line ever, and I don't think he got it.

There's a guy I see on FB with the last name Hammershmit, or something like that. I can't read it without thinking "Hammer-$hlt", and feeling like I want to use that term when I talk to my teenage sons about doing multiple flushes to avoid breaking our toilets, like, "Boys, if you're going to take a hammershit, don't wait until you're all done to flush. Go ahead and hit that handle a few times as you're working your way through it. We can afford the water bill more than the plumber."

I was playing cards recently with a guy who told me his name was "Ace", abbreviated from the initials "A.C.", or some such, but...c'mon, you're playing cards, and you introduce yourself as "Ace"? Really? How original...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



judg69 said:


> Doc, make more in 42-43mm , and I will be a multiples purchaser. I have nothing against < 40mm watches , but for me they flat out DO NOT work at all! Thank You





captainmorbid said:


> Luckily, in approximately five months...
> 
> Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


Thought I'd replied to this already, but I guess not...

We didn't touch the XL Sub design for most of the summer, but we just got back to working on it, and are making progress again.

Like I said, the case design is done, unless we decide to change it, which I don't think we will.

The case has a distinctively vintage MilSub'ish look, but we don't really want to make the overall design too much of a direct homage. I think we're finding that the more "original" we make the dial/hands design, the more "modern" it looks, and the less sure I am that it looks "right" with the vintage-inspired case.

I really like what Rusty and I came up with for the case. I really like some of the ideas Aaron and I came up with for the dial/hands. I just didn't like them together, and the only ideas I had to reconcile them just led into doing a direct homage in some other way.

Rather than force our way through it, I decided to let it sit for a while. Maybe I was procrastinating. It helped that we got busy with other things.

Anyway, we're back at it, and making progress, albeit slowly. I don't want to rush it. When we're happy with it, we'll get it into production ASAP. I'm hoping we can start within the next month or two, and have it ready in Q1 2020.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Usually purchase the Isofrane and Tropic rubber when I happen to catch them at a discount.



















The yellow and orange were not discounted. Gear Patrol had the other colors reduced.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Wait...I gotta review the tape...
> 
> Yep, there we have it folks, the thread's first official Hall & Oates call-back diss.
> 
> I think we're done here. No need to keep discussing anything. There's your ending. Fade to black. Roll credits.


You really want hall and oates as your fade-to-black? Sad.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> You really want hall and oates as your fade-to-black? Sad.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Meh. It beats that yacht rock you probably listen to.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Haven't checked in in a bit. Work's been brutal. Still wearing this guy daily:









<< pulls pin on WoT grenade >>

Probably won't come off the wrist until Doc ships my Barracuda Modern Black with silver indices.

ETA: As a serious side note, the PVD bezels on this watch and on my DR have turned me into a PVD believer. The number of times I've banged my wrist on something and thought, "That's it; that's the one that's going to leave a mark"... and yet it never seems to.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

The thing with rubber straps is that I've never really given much thought (read: any thought) to what they're made of. I know some are rubber, and some are silicon, and some are comfortable, and some just suck (read: Seiko SKX stock rubber strap).

I don't know what's in an Isofrane strap. I'm willing to press the "I believe" that they're special, especially when people are actually selling and buying vintage straps! A rubber strap that is going to last long enough to be passed down is pretty remarkable.

Anyway, like I said, that's still a steep price for something that I've never given a whole lot of thought to. So I read the threads, did some research, and decided to pony up $30 (and free shipping!) to Borealis. Since I have no data point on the real Isofrane, I have no idea how it compares to the real deal. I can say that it completely meets my expectations, at a fraction of the cost, and I bought three now because I like them that much.

WRT this thread, and this is going to be kiss-ass, but what I love about your business, Doc, is that you always seem to surprise me with your attention to detail. I would have thought the strap as almost...not an afterthought...but doggone man, looking at rubber compounds to pick the "right" one for your vision?! That's just epic. Every time I read a post by someone that starts talking profit margins and comparing NTH pricing to some other watch just on the paper specs, I just wish they could see things like I see them. There is value in the homework and research you continue to do to put together your watch package. There is a reason we're such NTH fans, beyond just the awesome aesthetics. A watch is more than just the sum of its parts, you know?

Off topic, but I was going to ask how much water resistance I need on my watch for eating clam chowder out of a sourdough bowl, but I think I'll save that question for the public forum. Somehow it just feels...right.


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Off topic, but I was going to ask how much water resistance I need on my watch for eating clam chowder out of a sourdough bowl, but I think I'll save that question for the public forum. Somehow it just feels...right.


The amount of WR needed in that situation depends on how hard you're shoveling the food into your mouth. Chowder moving at a high rate of speed can subject a watch to far greater pressure than you would expect.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Monterey is on the ocean. That whole part of Cali has great seafood. There are only two types of clam chowder I know about - New England, and Manhattan, which is also on the East Coast. No matter which way I went there, the result would have been the same.
> 
> Deal with it...
> 
> (...by getting some of that delicious clam chowder in a fat sourdough bread-bowl, down on Fisherman's Wharf, if you're ever in Monterey, CA, and if you do, thank me later).


In your honor, doc, a bowl of NE's finest. In DC.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Meh. It beats that yacht rock you probably listen to.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


We're going to fight at District Time. You're going to win, but I'm throwing hands.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'm rarely put out when someone says there's something they don't like about a design.
> 
> I'll likely be put out if any response I offer, however dry (relatively, considering the source), gets characterized as being angry/defensive, whatever. And, it happens a lot. I get tired trying to defend my responses because someone else misread tone in a typed response.
> 
> ...


I don't think we're picking up what the other is laying down. For the sake of clarity, I'll waste everyone's time with a few more comments.

I had no issue with "they're made, can't change." I did already know that, but how could you know how closely I've been following Vanguard news? Also, I'm repeating myself, but I didn't suggest anything be changed. But whatever, not a big deal.

The combo of that plus the sharpie part that followed is what seemed like an unnecessary poke in the eye. That was the part that got my hackles up. If you're saying that is just Philly color, then OK, cool, I guess. This whole thing has been much ado about nothing.

The boilerplate comment was about the knee wall of text that followed. The one with the list of allowed responses, etc.

The colorful banter is indeed entertaining. Perhaps best enjoyed from a safe distance like a Gallagher show.

I can appreciate the challenges you face in how to respond. And the challenges we all face in reading tone. Really, I do. This next bit isn't meant as a jab.

If people often think you sound like a duck, maybe you sound like a duck. It would be frustrating for sure to have to repeatedly explain that that is just how it sounds and it doesn't mean you are going to poop all over their patio. When someone makes that mistake and thinks they hear a duck, they're probably predisposed to hear quacking in a reply containing anything that could sound even remotely argumentative. Something simple like "that wasn't meant to offend" might smooth things over more quickly.

Also, I suspect most don't expect you to respond to every comment in the thread. If you aren't directly asked a question, you probably don't have to spend any time considering what response - short or long or whatever - is required.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Can't say how Monterey chowder compares to others. But it is damn good. I once drove up the coast from LA to Monterey, had a bread bowl of chowder and then drove back. This was on the return leg.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Yup, I need to take a drive... beautiful, 3WR!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> We're going to fight at District Time. You're going to win, but I'm throwing hands.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll let you take the first shot.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Excellent, another bar fight.

Some random musings on manners. We’re right out on the edge of the spectrum here. At the other end of that spectrum is Versace.

I have to go spread some straw now to soak up the blood.


Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

illumidata said:


> Excellent, another bar fight.
> 
> Some random musings on manners. We're right out on the edge of the spectrum here. At the other end of that spectrum is Versace.
> 
> ...


Id prefer a mattress for when I hit the ground. No Ranger training.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'll let you take the first shot.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Is this going to happen on Saturday or Sunday?


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

hwa said:


> You really want hall and oates as your fade-to-black? Sad.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There's only one fade to black..






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ghosting the thread...









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Been wearing my NTH tropic lately on one of my other watches and I've been looking into getting some other tropic straps lately so I fell into that thread. Trademarking "tropic" was a lame move imo. Also the responses from them in that thread where a turn off to me.










Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

RmacMD said:


> Is this going to happen on Saturday or Sunday?


Well, I've gotta make sure he's not expecting it, right? So, immediately or whenever he's not looking.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

hwa said:


> Well, I've gotta make sure he's not expecting it, right? So, immediately or whenever he's not looking.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can you set up a live feed? Some of us won't be able to get there.... :-d


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> Been wearing my NTH tropic lately on one of my other watches and I've been looking into getting some other tropic straps lately so I fell into that thread. Trademarking "tropic" was a lame move imo. Also the responses from them in that thread where a turn off to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree. Wasn't too happy to see those decisions being made by the tropic company.

Meraud didn't do themselves any favors but Ill end up going with them vs the tropic company as the quality looks to be there.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ryan850 said:


> I agree. Wasn't too happy to see those decisions being made by the tropic company.
> 
> Meraud didn't do themselves any favors but Ill end up going with them vs the tropic company as the quality looks to be there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Yep that was an odd twist, lol.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ryan850 said:


> I agree. Wasn't too happy to see those decisions being made by the tropic company.
> 
> Meraud didn't do themselves any favors but Ill end up going with them vs the tropic company as the quality looks to be there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk





mplsabdullah said:


> Yep that was an odd twist, lol.


Wait...what?

What did we miss?


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

According to a post by one of the forum moderators, Meraud/stijn was using 3 accounts to post favourable posts about the meraud strap. Same IP address. One of the said accounts was set up to look like a regular forum user, posting something along the likes of "hey, just received the strap, it's great". 
Soooo kind of a really stupid move from Meraud's side.

The Isofrane/Tropic guy (forum user "isofrane") just seems like a general-purpose a-hole...

Also, apparently too many people started objecting to the Isofrane guy's decision to go after non-tropic tropic strap sellers, so the tropic strap thread on f74 got locked. You know, that's how WUS is, criticism of some people is not allowed.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Bummer that the thread got Locked. There was a good amount of bs but I also thought it was very informative and there was some decent dialogue taking place.

The "locking of threads" is something (little) that irks me WUS. I think they should let the people decide chat it out.

Now, this could go both ways (ie doc getting mixed in in bs) so I need to make sure I'm seeing both sides. But the thought is that this is a public forum and people should be allowed to converse about this stuff. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

Shhhhhh...don’t let this thread lock down as well....

Pretty busy these days, trying to keep up with the news on WUS, but pretty surprised by the Meraud guy. His products seem to have good quality, why did he make such a bad move?

Tropic is the next hot trend...I should have bought them when they are still dirt cheap


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh. Just spent 20 minutes scrolling through the last 10-12 pages of that thread.

As soon as I saw that a company had trademarked the name "Tropic", I knew we'd end up with the result of any strap called a "tropic" strap getting its listing removed from eBay, just like with "NATO(TM)" straps. I assume that also means the company will likely send a cease/desist letter to and threaten suit of any company that tries to make and sell a "Tropic" strap.

I'm so glad I sold out of our "unofficial tropik-style" straps before this started.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> If that's really your name, it's quite the mouthful.
> 
> There's a WUS user with a handle that ends in Huskinson. I think I once called him "husky-kisser". It wasn't my best line ever, and I don't think he got it.
> 
> There's a guy I see on FB with the last name Hammershmit, or something like that. I can't read it without thinking "Hammer-$hlt", and feeling like I want to use that term when I talk to my teenage sons about doing multiple flushes to avoid breaking our toilets, like, "Boys, if you're going to take a hammershit, don't wait until you're all done to flush. Go ahead and hit that handle a few times as you're working your way through it. We can afford the water bill more than the plumber."


Catching up on this thread, saw this post and was reminded of old graffiti on the barracks head bulkhead long ago that cracked me up ever since ...."flush twice, it's a long way to the messhall"....next to it was "here I sit in misty vapor, 'cause some dum f*** stole the paper"

Obviously, I crack up easily


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

rpm1974 said:


> There's only one fade to black..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How that solo is supposed to be played, rather than butchered with a wah pedal:


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I saw this new Tisell Explorer homage posted in another thread and was a bit shocked by the low price given the specs and the fact that Tisell has been in the game for a little while now:

http://shop2.tisellkr.cafe24.com/product/tisell-9015-ex-miyota-90s5-automatic-bgw9/40/

I guess I shouldn't have been given my prior knowledge of the pricing of their Sub homages.

I know we've talked about pricing variables a bunch in the past, but what do you guys make of a brand like Tisell's pricings?

At such a price can one just assume it's most likely (or at least that one of the primary factors is) economy of scale-that they must be selling their wares by the truckload to offset what I can only imagine are incredibly thin margins?

If so, it's interesting that they'd stick to this model rather than trying to swim upmarket like some other brands (bad/too complicated of analogy but I'll make one anyway to Seiko).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

X2-Elijah said:


> According to a post by one of the forum moderators, Meraud/stijn was using 3 accounts to post favourable posts about the meraud strap. Same IP address. One of the said accounts was set up to look like a regular forum user, posting something along the likes of "hey, just received the strap, it's great".
> Soooo kind of a really stupid move from Meraud's side.
> 
> The Isofrane/Tropic guy (forum user "isofrane") just seems like a general-purpose a-hole...
> ...


There was multiple complaints sent against Stijn about his brand to the moderators. Not sure what are they.. probably it is getting more attention about their variant of the tropic being better.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I saw this new Tisell Explorer homage posted in another thread and was a bit shocked by the low price given the specs and the fact that Tisell has been in the game for a little while now:
> 
> Welcome to joyful online shopping!
> 
> ...


It is possible that currency exchange rates play a role in this.


----------



## jkpa (Feb 8, 2014)

Speaking of straps, and specifically those "style" straps as mentioned in that other thread - I recently purchased a watch on a Borealis strap and that thing is just awesome. AND CHEAP. 

I'm gonna buy more for my other divers.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

jkpa said:


> Speaking of straps, and specifically those "style" straps as mentioned in that other thread - I recently purchased a watch on a Borealis strap and that thing is just awesome. AND CHEAP.
> 
> I'm gonna buy more for my other divers.


Agree, and add that Obris Morgan rubber (and leather) straps are excellent as well.

The yellow is an OM, the orange a Borealis


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Not for nothing, but Deep Blue rubber straps are pretty good too.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Not for nothing, but Deep Blue rubber straps are pretty good too.


Agree, and comparing Deep Blue rubber with Borealis rubber, I think they may be made by the same folks.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> Not for nothing, but Deep Blue rubber straps are pretty good too.


Agree, and comparing Deep Blue rubber with Borealis rubber, I think they may be made by the same folks. On the other hand, Obris Morgan rubber is definitely different than each.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

It might have been missed in the chatter, but put me down as another very satisfied customer of the Borealis Isofrane-style straps. They are very, very nice.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

I agree on the Borealis straps, nice for the price.

I haven't popped in on this tread lately. It got me reading up on the Great Tropic Strap Wars. My favorite rubber compound is what the Bonetto Cinturini straps are made of. It's interesting that BN doesn't make a Isofrane or tropic style strap. 

"You never know how strong you are, until being strong is your only choice" - Bob Marley


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Bam









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those who've been watching/waiting, the Amphion Commando, Tikuna, and Vanguard will go on sale this coming Tuesday (one week from today), 3 September.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 14426073


I wonder what diet program that guy was on...


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> I wonder what diet program that guy was on...


Rather more extreme than the one you are/were on. That's more than a 30lb or so weight lost.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Scorpene on BoR. I think it came out nice.. reminds me LLD


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

liquidtension said:


> Scorpene on BoR. I think it came out nice.. reminds me LLD
> View attachment 14426623


I like it! Reminds me of a Longines for some reason.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

kpjimmy said:


> liquidtension said:
> 
> 
> > Scorpene on BoR. I think it came out nice.. reminds me LLD
> ...


Yeah! The legend diver


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

A cross between a Longines and a Spork.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Couple of full moons were out this a.m.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Here's a pair










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

It's waffle-dial Wednesday










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

The subs look really sharp on those BoR bracelets.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

liquidtension said:


> Yeah! The legend diver


Apologies, I just realized you mentioned LLD. Sorry it was before my coffee be lol. Looks great 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

kpjimmy said:


> liquidtension said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah! The legend diver
> ...


Haha that's ok. Here's another one...


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

The BoR bracelets really do set off the subs, great combos. They work a lot better with the darker dials than I would've thought. The Nazario Sauro is probably still my favorite pairing.

Is watchgecko the best place to find the BoR still?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

My new Amphion Commando!*

*I do not suffer from mad PhotoShop skillz...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 14428107
> 
> 
> My new Amphion Commando!*
> ...


Looks just like the renders! Rusty is the man!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Immediate style uptick when paired with a BOR:









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Well, it's not a BOR, and it's not a Scorpene, but is a sub.


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

MC,

The Commando looks to wear a lot thinner.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

^Gurthang54 said:


> MC,
> 
> The Commando looks to wear a lot thinner.


Just about disappears on the wrist -- paper thin.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> The BoR bracelets really do set off the subs, great combos. They work a lot better with the darker dials than I would've thought. The Nazario Sauro is probably still my favorite pairing.
> 
> Is watchgecko the best place to find the BoR still?


We've got more of the BOR's coming in October(ish).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I like those scotch-tape links. They really hug the wrist (hair).


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

RuggerAl said:


> The BoR bracelets really do set off the subs, great combos. They work a lot better with the darker dials than I would've thought. The Nazario Sauro is probably still my favorite pairing.
> 
> Is watchgecko the best place to find the BoR still?


Short term, yes, and with straight end links standard. Curved, folded end links are an option.

The NTH BOR bracelet has solid end links and a better fit, as you'd expect.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MaxIcon said:


> Short term, yes, and with straight end links standard. Curved, folded end links are an option.
> 
> The NTH BOR bracelet has solid end links and a better fit, as you'd expect.


There's nothing wrong with the Watchgecko BoR fit. It's different, but I wouldn't say my NTH BoR fits better. I like them both. The fit is tight. What might appear as gaps in the photo is only shadow. 









Doc Savage


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

30 seconds on the sun....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

When did the new NTH Augmented Reality App to 'try on' any model go live and where can I download it?



mconlonx said:


> View attachment 14428107
> 
> 
> My new Amphion Commando!*
> ...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 14428107
> 
> 
> My new Amphion Commando!*
> ...


Very nice! It will also tell the correct time for exactly two seconds out of every day.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hotblack Desiato said:


> There's nothing wrong with the Watchgecko BoR fit. It's different, but I wouldn't say my NTH BoR fits better. I like them both. The fit is tight. What might appear as gaps in the photo is only shadow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I quite like the WG variant and tempted to try it as well! End links is different and think it's cool. Talking about end links I actually bought that ebay oyster that has that description "made to fit ginault". It have the feel of V1 nth bracelet but with ginault's end link and cheaper version of the glidelock. I'll post a pic sometime tomorrow or something,


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

That Tikuna Matata looks really cool. I may have to sell another watch so that I can get one of these (I'm trying to keep a stable collection size).

Doc Savage


----------



## davek35 (Jun 12, 2017)

jerseydan31 said:


> 30 seconds on the sun...


I know what you mean! Lume is not a top priority for me in watches, but my recently acquired Barracuda is amazing! Just as a watch and the lume!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Missed one:


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Oh, Serious, how I both love and hate thee.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Missed one:


You just beat me to it.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RuggerAl said:


> The BoR bracelets really do set off the subs, great combos. They work a lot better with the darker dials than I would've thought. The Nazario Sauro is probably still my favorite pairing.
> 
> Is watchgecko the best place to find the BoR still?


I miss this relatively early WatchGecko BoR trial, which I agree fit decently enough 




























While I'm not a white dial guy (so I let the NS go to make room for something I'd reach for more), this one remains my all time favorite (and longest surviving) white dial to date!



docvail said:


> We've got more of the BOR's coming in October(ish).




It's weird. I rarely even wear BoR bracelets that I have. (I want to like them more than I functionally seem to.) I guess I just want the NTH one for completionist's sake 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Hello Doc,

Can you give us the inspiration/design/idea behind these 3 new releases?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jerseydan31 said:


> Hello Doc,
> 
> Can you give us the inspiration/design/idea behind these 3 new releases?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Needing to pay for groceries.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jerseydan31 said:


> Hello Doc,
> 
> Can you give us the inspiration/design/idea behind these 3 new releases?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Aside from needing money...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Soooo.....a $4200 Christopher Ward is now a thing that exists. It's....ambitious to say the least. Attractive is a different matter.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> Soooo.....a $4200 Christopher Ward is now a thing that exists. It's....ambitious to say the least. Attractive is a different matter.
> 
> I could swear I saw that at the Invicta stand at the Walt Whitman NJ Turnpike rest area last weekend. (Bam!)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Happy Labor day weekend!









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Watch geeks:
“I hate the new Chris Ward logo.”
“I hate the new, new Chris Ward logo.”
“I really hate the new, new, new Chris Ward logo.”

Chris Ward:
“Here. No more logo.”

Watch geeks:
“Why’d they remove the logo?”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmjonez said:


> Missed one:


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Needing to pay for groceries.


Literally just laughed red wine... should stop reading this thread with a full glass..

Ric


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ric Capucho said:


> Literally just laughed red wine... should stop reading this thread with a full glass..
> 
> Ric


Just switch to white or whiskey, laugh all you want

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Fannum Phrydae!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

kpjimmy said:


> Happy Labor day weekend![/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190830/b43fc0e1d8bb1032e073baf4a3d06118.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


You really nailed that pairing 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

rpm1974 said:


> Watch geeks:
> "I hate the new Chris Ward logo."
> "I hate the new, new Chris Ward logo."
> "I really hate the new, new, new Chris Ward logo."
> ...


Actually it has the new new new new logo (to the left of the date window).

I hate that one too (and the entire watch is also pretty bad &#8230.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Soooo.....a $4200 Christopher Ward is now a thing that exists. It's....ambitious to say the least. Attractive is a different matter.
> 
> View attachment 14431921


 looks like a fossil...


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

No NTH today. Wearing the G while I wrangle corrugated storm shutters.

Florida WIS crew: Hold Fast.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> No NTH today. Wearing the G while I wrangle corrugated storm shutters.
> 
> Florida WIS crew: Hold Fast.
> 
> View attachment 14433571


Good luck and stay safe, Bro.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Good luck and stay safe, Bro.


I was in FL for Hurricanes Erin and Opal, in 1995.

Because Erin turned out to be "only" a cat 2, our command (Army) delayed evacuating us in the lead-up to Opal, which was a beast.

Trying to get out of Dodge with no cash and low on gas was not fun. I wrecked my car on I-95, almost died, and had to beg, borrow and steal to get the rest of the way home.

Good times...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I was in FL for Hurricanes Erin and Opal, in 1995.
> 
> Trying to get out of Dodge with no cash and low on gas was not fun. I wrecked my car on I-95, almost died, and had to beg, borrow and steal to get the rest of the way home.


Yikes. I feel ya. "Dodge" cars really were terrible back then.


----------



## khronolektur (Mar 14, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



rneiman3 said:


> I LOVE MY DEVIL RAY!!!!!
> 
> View attachment 14412817


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Ebay oyster bracelet


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> Literally just laughed red wine... should stop reading this thread with a full glass..
> 
> Ric


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


>


Yup, close. Just need the jet of red wine out of my nose and yer nailed it.

Ric


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

Bump


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Crikey, slow day. Everyone must be off the grid.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Crikey, slow day. Everyone must be off the grid.


I'm around.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

RmacMD said:


> Crikey, slow day. Everyone must be off the grid.


I'll play.

Of the three newbies being launched in a couple days, I had the Vanguard in third. Now that I've seen them all, it's hard to separate them... and the Vanguard may now be in first place for me. I mean, look at this thing...









_Ripped from IG_

I love a blue dial and the yellow hour markers are great - and the 12-hour bezel is perfect for this one.

Who's got an order in... and what are you picking up?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Twehttam said:


> I'll play.
> 
> Of the three newbies being launched in a couple days, I had the Vanguard in third. Now that I've seen them all, it's hard to separate them... and the Vanguard may now be in first place for me. I mean, look at this thing...
> 
> ...


I'm in for both of the 12-hours bezels. They work very well as a "poor man's" GMT watch. Extremely useful for me, and easier to set the local time: just spin the bezel.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

So what do you do when you're under hurricane warning, when you've sent your wife and kid to stay with family somewhere safe and the house feels silent and empty?

You bake sourdough bread.

While wearing a DevilRay.

Because that's a thing.

BTW, wearing this because of your earlier picture, Ratfacedgit.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Twehttam said:


> I'll play.
> 
> Of the three newbies being launched in a couple days, I had the Vanguard in third. Now that I've seen them all, it's hard to separate them... and the Vanguard may now be in first place for me. I mean, look at this thing...
> 
> ...


Is the Vanguard an homage to a particular watch? I agree it looks amazing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

Boom. Loom.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Some pics of the eBay oyster


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

dmjonez said:


> I'm in for both of the 12-hours bezels. They work very well as a "poor man's" GMT watch. Extremely useful for me, and easier to set the local time: just spin the bezel.


Yup.

I have a different 12-hr bezel watch coming in a few weeks, but I'm suuuuper tempted. It's just got a really nice vibe that's casual and would work well in the office.

Time will tell...

Post some pics when it (they) land. |> |>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Is the Vanguard an homage to a particular watch? I agree it looks amazing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post49736167.html#post49736167


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

At first I wanted a Nodus Contrail SS in blue. Then I heard there was going to be a 12hr bezel release with the new NTH models. So initially, I was totally primed for the Vanguard. But I like a stainless bezel insert. And countdown bezels, too. I'm now waiting to hear from Watch Gauge about the Amphion Commando I hopefully have reserved.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-post49736167.html#post49736167


That's awesome. An homage to your own watch! Makes sense.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

We gotta chowder up that sourdough bread bowl!


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Toonces said:


> We gotta chowder up that sourdough bread bowl!


Or Cream of Crab!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Oh noes! I got sunscreen on my watch!










Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I rinsed it off in the hot tub. Should be good to go now. Whew crisis averted!










Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You guys may like this.

Animation by Rusty: I dunno. Whatever he charged me.

Original music score by Aaron: Ditto the above.

Being awesome: Priceless.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

"Hardened steel"? 

...
really?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> "Hardened steel"?
> 
> ...
> really?


Really.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

tropics with skipjack


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

You've really gotta love the rabbit hole of extreme Seiko mods sometimes. Just stumbled across this one: "Tiffany & Co. Seiko Turtlemaster" with a 12hr root beer bakelite bezel.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> Really.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I think the whole thing is very cool, especially the moving exploded view parts. My only suggestion would be to slow it down just a bit because it is hard to read all the text and view the images before it moves onto the next "slide".

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

In for a discounted Commando no-date.

Wasn’t gonna participate, but the points discount pushed me over.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> You've really gotta love the rabbit hole of extreme Seiko mods sometimes. Just stumbled across this one: "Tiffany & Co. Seiko Turtlemaster" with a 12hr root beer bakelite bezel.
> 
> View attachment 14441813


That is bloody ridiculous. And somehow charming. I'd like to see a side profile of that crystal and bezel.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> I think the whole thing is very cool, especially the moving exploded view parts. My only suggestion would be to slow it down just a bit because it is hard to read all the text and view the images before it moves onto the next "slide".
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Pause if need be.

We wanted to keep the video from being too long. The pacing is a compromise.


----------



## ddru (Mar 2, 2018)

yankeexpress said:


> In for a discounted Commando no-date.
> 
> Wasn't gonna participate, but the points discount pushed me over.


What discount are you talking about?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ddru said:


> What discount are you talking about?


He used loyalty rewards points to get $25 off.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Really.


Okay, sooo... is it surface-hardened steel, like Sinn's tegimenting? Is it ice-hardened steel, like Damasko? Is it a hard clearcoat layer, like Seiko's Diashield?

How many Vickers (or HRC) do the subs have, is it any higher than any other 316L stainless steel watch? If so... is that only for these new ones, has it been since the beginning?

Or did that line about hardened 316L steel just was industry-speak for "our watch case is made in the same process as almost any other 316L steel watch case"?


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Popcorn.gif


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

X2-Elijah said:


> Okay, sooo... is it surface-hardened steel, like Sinn's tegimenting? Is it ice-hardened steel, like Damasko? Is it a hard clearcoat layer, like Seiko's Diashield?
> 
> How many Vickers (or HRC) do the subs have, is it any higher than any other 316L stainless steel watch? If so... is that only for these new ones, has it been since the beginning?
> 
> Or did that line about hardened 316L steel just was industry-speak for "our watch case is made in the same process as almost any other 316L steel watch case"?


I like my steel to be soft and supple, yet firm and unyielding. Al dente, if you will.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Okay, sooo... is it surface-hardened steel, like Sinn's tegimenting? Is it ice-hardened steel, like Damasko? Is it a hard clearcoat layer, like Seiko's Diashield?
> 
> How many Vickers (or HRC) do the subs have, is it any higher than any other 316L stainless steel watch? If so... is that only for these new ones, has it been since the beginning?
> 
> Or did that line about hardened 316L steel just was industry-speak for "our watch case is made in the same process as almost any other 316L steel watch case"?


*****.









It's just a descriptor, like "surgical-grade" used to describe 316L stainless or "long-lasting" to describe lume.

The cases are cold-forged (always have been), which both strengthens and hardens the steel. You can Google "cold forging", but I'll give you a quick TL;DR:

"The main difference between hot and cold forging may be summarized as follows: The cold forging manufacturing process increases the strength of a metal through strain hardening at a room temperature. On the contrary the hot forging manufacturing process keeps materials from strain hardening at high temperature, which results in optimum yield strength, low hardness and high ductility."

I wouldn't say something about the product if it wasn't true. I'd think I've demonstrated that by now. If you want to play "stump the chump", we can do that, but why?

Why take that sort of posture, as if we're trying to deceive? We're getting more customers who aren't WIS. They aren't as "watch-smart" as so many here seem to be, and so we wanted something to speak more to the layman.

Are the WR gaskets a surprise to anyone? I bet they're not. And yet, they're in the video, just like "hardened" steel, and "sapphire" and "AR", and "micro-adjustments".

PS - Sinn's tegimentation is EXACTLY the sort of hype you seem so hot to expose. They use HY (high-yield, which is to say, highly ductile, low-hardness) steel. Tegimentation only hardens the outer surface, sort of like an egg shell is harder than the contents of the egg.

PPS - Damasko uses highly brittle (i.e. "hard") 440 steel, which is harder, but at the cost of having reduced resistance to corrosion, so while it does go through "cold hardening" (which is the only way to harden 440, by the way), it needs an exterior surface treatment to avoid corrosion.

PPPS - "Ice hardening" isn't even "ice" hardening. It's done with cryogenics. If you quenched high-quality / high-carbon steel in ice water, it would crack. Unless Damasko is using low-quality / low-carbon steel, they're not using "ice" to do hardening.

You want to go hunting for companies over-hyping run-of-the-mill metal work? Look elsewhere, not here.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Instant joy whenever the outfit and mood gets this back on the wrist after an absence.





































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

docvail said:


> You guys may like this.
> 
> Animation by Rusty: I dunno. Whatever he charged me.
> 
> ...


"...with solid, 20mm solid end-links."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kak1154 said:


> "...with solid, 20mm solid end-links."


Yep. I spotted that and another text edit we needed to make last night.

Edits have been made, and the new version uploaded.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Invoice from Watch Gauge received and paid, confirmed. Amphion Commando w/ date on the way...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> *****.
> 
> View attachment 14442341
> 
> ...


Edit:

actually, nevermind. I retract my response and preceding questions. Better to just let this lie.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)




----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Toonces said:


>


Don't push it.

I fundamentally disagree with what doc implied in his response, and hearing him disparaging sinn/damasko as doing "run-of-the-mill metal work" is rich - while he is claiming "hardened cases" which has a VERY SPECIFIC meaning when communicated to customers, and which turns out he just means "we make cases same as any brand" (*who exactly is doing the run-of-the-mill stuff here? Here's a hint - the brand whose cases are just as hard as any other brand's cases, made in the same way as any other brand's cases.*).

But I guess this thread is meant for only praising doc and being his yes-men. So, I'm letting this argument die out - but don't mistake my holding back for blind agreement to his advertisement spin.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Just teasing brother. I mean, c'mon it's Southpark!


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

At the risk of dragging this out, you zeroed in on the inclusion of a single word - "hardened" - as though it was some bold claim that was being heavily touted by NTH. It's not like the video spent a full minute touting some unique case hardening process or anything. It was simply a passing comment in a format that presents a lot of information in a short segment. Whether it was your intent or not, this feels to me, and I'm sure some other folks here, like you were trying to play "gotcha".

Two things can be true here at once: That NTH Subs' cases can accurately be described as "hardened", and that this "hardening" is not an uncommon manufacturing practice. I didn't get the impression that Doc was claiming otherwise.

And we're not all "yes men" here. I think Doc is ugly and obnoxious, and though I've never met him in person, I have a strong suspicion that he emits an unpleasant odor of skunky booze, stale cigar smoke, and broken dreams. But I do like his watches, and I'd expect that most people who waste their free time here do as well.

Relax, my friend.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Don't push it.
> 
> I fundamentally disagree with what doc implied in his response, and hearing him disparaging sinn/damasko as doing "run-of-the-mill metal work" is rich - while he is claiming "hardened cases" which has a VERY SPECIFIC meaning when communicated to customers, and which turns out he just means "we make cases same as any brand" (*who exactly is doing the run-of-the-mill stuff here? Here's a hint - the brand whose cases are just as hard as any other brand's cases, made in the same way as any other brand's cases.*).
> 
> But I guess this thread is meant for only praising doc and being his yes-men. So, I'm letting this argument die out - but don't mistake my holding back for blind agreement to his advertisement spin.


Here we go...

1. I never disparaged Sinn or Damasko. Everything I said about what they do is accurate. I've gone on record before, stating my opinion that I think Damasko has the better solution (better than Sinn), and that I admire the technical innovations from both. I don't particularly admire the way those companies over-hype what they're doing, but that seems to be their modus operandi, and it seems to work very well for them, judging by the awe so many people seem to be in, when they hear "tegimentation".

2. I've actually RESEARCHED metallurgy, for this EXACT sort of discussion, because I wanted to know, for my own benefit, how the various metals and the techniques for hardening them compare. That's why I'm able to comment intelligently about Sinn's use of HY steel and Damasko's use of 440. Want to argue with me? Okay, do some research, and tell me what I've said that's not factually correct.

3. I didn't say they were doing "run of the mill metal work", although I can see how you'd make that connection. I was saying, *YOU* seem to be looking to hang an "overhyping the ordinary" label around my neck, and I won't have it. We're not over-hyping anything, only describing the result of the process our cases go through, for consumers' information.

4. Hardened does have a very specific meaning. It means the cases are hardened. And they are. If you want to dismiss that as being "the same as everyone else", okay, but there are many companies making a big deal out of doing things that everyone else is doing, and some making a big deal out of things that aren't really that big a deal (like "ice hardening" 440 steel, which is analogous to cold-forging 316, or like hardening the outer surface of a softer metal, like HY steel, which is sort of like putting a helmet on your toddler before letting him play hockey).

5. We're not over-hyping anything, or trying to deceive anyone. I'm not going around banging on about how our cases go through some additional hardening process. It's one word, which is 100% true, just as "surgical grade" and "stainless" are also true. They're descriptors.

6. Fundamentally disagree? With what? Everything I said is 100% accurate. You're disagreeing with facts??? Or you just don't like that I'm introducing them where they seem to be lacking?

You got wrapped around the axle over one word, which you object to, and seem to think I'm using it deceptively, just "advertising spin", when it's actually completely true, and not something we've ever gone out of our way to sell as a "feature". We have a complete lack of spin here.

You don't have to agree with me to hang around here, but for crying out loud, maybe consider dialing back a bit on the suspicion/aggression. We can discuss things without throwing jabs needlessly.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> At the risk of dragging this out, you zeroed in on the inclusion of a single word - "hardened" - as though it was some bold claim that was being heavily touted by NTH. It's not like the video spent a full minute touting some unique case hardening process or anything. It was simply a passing comment in a format that presents a lot of information in a short segment. Whether it was your intent or not, this feels to me, and I'm sure some other folks here, like you were trying to play "gotcha".
> 
> Two things can be true here at once: That NTH Subs' cases can accurately be described as "hardened", and that this "hardening" is not an uncommon manufacturing practice. I didn't get the impression that Doc was claiming otherwise.
> 
> ...


Did you get that hurricane yet?

My friend in Cocoa Beach (the one who fed my dog the meat-lovers pizza) has been posting hurricane memes to Facebook nonstop for the last 2 days, and I haven't wanted him to drown so much since that dog covered my house in dog$hlt.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Did you get that hurricane yet?
> 
> My friend in Cocoa Beach (the one who fed my dog the meat-lovers pizza) has been posting hurricane memes to Facebook nonstop for the last 2 days, and I haven't wanted him to drown so much since that dog covered my house in dog$hlt.


It looks like we're going to dodge a bullet this time. Current forecasts have it keeping well off the coast. It's moving towards us now, and should be past by early tomorrow morning. It's a little ugly out there right now, but nothing worse than a bad thunderstorm anywhere else.

Those poor folks in Abaco and Grand Bahama aren't so lucky. That monster sat stationary over the top of them for a full day, grinding them into the ocean. We haven't heard much about casualties out of there yet, but that's only because rescuers haven't really been able to get in. My fear is that when they do, we'll find out that whole communities were swept away.

I'm going to be sending some money to the Red Cross for the relief effort. If anyone here has any spare change jangling around in their pockets, maybe consider doing the same.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

The "hardened" thing... whatevs. 

Doc is right, if something is cold forged, then it is necessarily hardened by cold working. Something that is heat forged would then need additional heat/physical treatment to harden it, same thing with something made out of the same steel, but CNC'd rather than forged -- would need post-shaping treatment to harden it. 

So while quite a few other companies might be using the same steel, same process, it's on them if they are not marketing it as "hardened" steel. I can just see some of them, slack-jawed, learning of this, thinking, "Damn... wish I'd thought of that first. Sure gonna steal it..."

If you look at the spec's of something like a Sinn 556, you'll see "Anti-magnetic to DINxxxxxx; shock proof to DINxxxxxz specifications." Do a little digging you find that it has nothing to do with the watch construction or any special process on their end, just that this is the normal specification for the movement they are using. Any competitor using the movement could (and some do) claim the same thing. 

I mean, I get why someone might cock the chicken eye of doubt and lob a "Seriously...?!?" over the term "hardened," but it's a far cry from Oystersteel, FFS. How 'bout "Vailsteel"? Or if you really want to play to consumer confusion, and considering the steel Damasko uses, "Substeel." Meaning, "the steel used in these sub-style watches," not, "steel used to make submarines." Obviously. But do nothing to clarify if some consumers want to think it the latter, rather than the former.

I didn't even realize I was getting a hardened steel case with the sub, until it was pointed out. Bonus!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> The "hardened" thing... whatevs.
> 
> Doc is right, if something is cold forged, then it is necessarily hardened by cold working. Something that is heat forged would then need additional heat/physical treatment to harden it, same thing with something made out of the same steel, but CNC'd rather than forged -- would need post-shaping treatment to harden it.
> 
> ...


Not wanting to argue or correct you, but it's Sinn that uses the submarine steel, not Damasko. It's "HY" steel (high yield), which means it's high-strength ("ductility"), but strength and hardness in steels are sort of opposite characteristics.

I get why Sinn makes a big deal out of "Submarine Steel!". If it's good enough for submarines, it's got to be good enough for dive watches, and it sounds cool, right? But, submarines need their steel to flex as pressure changes at depth. It has to be highly ductile (resistant to cracking due to deformation). It's not as much a concern with watches, even diving watches. For most people, there seems to be more practical value in having a "harder" metal.

I give credit where it's due. Damasko's 440 steel is harder. A lot harder. But that's because it's high-carbon steel. High-carbon steel is very hard, but that means it's also very brittle, and more prone to corrosion. Their surface treatments "toughen" the outer layer, to protect against corrosion.

"Ice hardening" isn't even a very accurate term. There's literally no such thing with 440 steel. It's done cryogenically, with oils. There's literally no ice involved, whatsoever.

And, it is PRECISELY analogous to cold-forging and annealing with 316L (yes, we do both). Cold hardening treatments are NOT "special" in any way. That's just how you harden high carbon steel.

I don't know how genius "tegimentation" as a process is, but...sorry, using a softer steel for a watch that's going to get banged around tends to diminish my estimation of the genius thinking at work, especially when surface-hardening doesn't do anything to harden the underlying material (again, much like an egg shell around an egg yolk).

Yes, we use "ordinary" (and hardened, as well as annealed) "surgical grade" 316L stainless steel, just like many other brands.

Know why?

Because it's a great choice for the application. It's strong enough, and hard enough, and corrosion resistant, and requires no special surface treatment just to be useful as a material for a watch case. It's also very economical.

I'm a big fan of 316L stainless. But, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe I don't know my knickers from my Vickers...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Not wanting to argue or correct you, but it's Sinn that uses the submarine steel, not Damasko.


https://www.damasko-watches.com/en/technologies/quality-is-in-the-detail/austenitic-submarine-steel/

Ima start a microbrand using corten steel, and when they start to rust, note that they are supposed to develop a protective patina like that... "They make bridges out of this stuff, ya know..."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> https://www.damasko-watches.com/en/technologies/quality-is-in-the-detail/austenitic-submarine-steel/
> 
> Ima start a microbrand using corten steel, and when they start to rust, note that they are supposed to develop a protective patina like that... "They make bridges out of this stuff, ya know..."


Ho. Lee. $hlt.

It appears they started using that recently, with the DSub range. It appears they're still using martensitic (440) steel on all the other model ranges. I wonder if they figured they couldn't beat Sinn, so they may as well join them.

Or (and, I'm just spit-balling, here) - 440 is really tough to work. It can't be cold-forged, I don't think. I'm pretty sure it has to be worked at high-heat. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they've just found the additional hardness and anti-magnetic properties aren't worth the added headaches (and, I know for certain, they've had some).


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Not wanting to argue or correct you, but it's Sinn that uses the submarine steel, not Damasko. It's "HY" steel (high yield), which means it's high-strength ("ductility"), but strength and hardness in steels are sort of opposite characteristics.
> 
> I get why Sinn makes a big deal out of "Submarine Steel!". If it's good enough for submarines, it's got to be good enough for dive watches, and it sounds cool, right? But, submarines need their steel to flex as pressure changes at depth. It has to be highly ductile (resistant to cracking due to deformation). It's not as much a concern with watches, even diving watches. For most people, there seems to be more practical value in having a "harder" metal.
> 
> ...


I'm already missing the slow, quiet holiday weekend.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> Invoice from Watch Gauge received and paid, confirmed. Amphion Commando w/ date on the way...


Shipped. Due here Friday...


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Not wanting to argue or correct you, but it's Sinn that uses the submarine steel, not Damasko. It's "HY" steel (high yield), which means it's high-strength ("ductility"), but strength and hardness in steels are sort of opposite characteristics.
> 
> I get why Sinn makes a big deal out of "Submarine Steel!". If it's good enough for submarines, it's got to be good enough for dive watches, and it sounds cool, right? But, submarines need their steel to flex as pressure changes at depth. It has to be highly ductile (resistant to cracking due to deformation). It's not as much a concern with watches, even diving watches. For most people, there seems to be more practical value in having a "harder" metal.
> 
> ...


As an engineer, and one specialising in Stress analysis (which involves understanding material behaviours) I do love these conversations on WUS. I'm not trying to be patronising here saying I know more than you all, but it does always make me wonder of the level of stresses that a watchcase would see at say 300m under water and how that relates to the strength of the material.

Apparently the pressure at 300m is about 3013.63 kPa or ~3MPa and that's not a lot considering the strength of the material such as 316 stainless steel. And it's mainly a compressive stress that'll be generated as the pressure is all over and uniform. OK, so the case back will take some bending and there will be some tensile stresses, but I can't see it'll be much.

OK, so I don't know much about designing a watchcase to function at that depth but I'm suspecting that the weak areas are the crystal (brittle material and fairly weak) and the holes, e.g. caseback threads and the crown tube. And for the last two that's about the pressure overcoming the sealing. But unless I'm missing a trick the use of stainless steel was to provide protection the corrosive nature of seawater on metals, the strength isn't really needed. Surface hardening is great for providing resistance to scratches, etc but using submarine steel is a gimmick?

I'll be happy for anyone to correct me if I'm way off base......


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> As an engineer, and one specialising in Stress analysis (which involves understanding material behaviours) I do love these conversations on WUS. I'm not trying to be patronising here saying I know more than you all, but it does always make me wonder of the level of stresses that a watchcase would see at say 300m under water and how that relates to the strength of the material.
> 
> Apparently the pressure at 300m is about 3013.63 kPa or ~3MPa and that's not a lot considering the strength of the material such as 316 stainless steel. And it's mainly a compressive stress that'll be generated as the pressure is all over and uniform. OK, so the case back will take some bending and there will be some tensile stresses, but I can't see it'll be much.
> 
> ...


Agreed on all.

I love when the lawyers chime in when we're discussing the law (seriously, not sarcastically). I equally love when the engineers chime in when discussing engineering, or the watchmakers chime in when discussing watchmaking.

I'm not an engineer. What I know is knowledge recently acquired (in the last 5-6 years), through online research, and a handful of conversations with those more knowledgeable than I am. I do my best to stay within the realm of my own certainty, which is a small realm, and I leave open the possibility that someone with more knowledge will correct me.

So...correct me if I've got any of this wrong...

I don't see the point in using submarine steel in a watch, for exactly the reasons you explained. The stresses on the case aren't likely to be enough to think higher ductility has any practical value.

I do see the point in having a harder case, BUT, only up to a point. Especially when you consider the additional costs of using alternative materials, and their downsides (like decreased corrosion resistance, and more difficulty meeting specs and tolerances), I think the trade-offs often are not worth it.

What I know about watch engineering tells me basically what you said - the likely points of failure from pressure are not the steel parts themselves, but the non-steel parts, and the places where the parts come together - the seams and such which are bolstered with gaskets to keep water out.

Still, it amazes me all the fawning attention that gets paid to companies which have raised "hyping the inane" to an art form, and I have to laugh at the irony of my being berated for actually trying to educate the public by introducing some transparency into this situation.

How dare I criticize bad decision-making on the part of people's favorite brands?

I dare that much, and more.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

I gotta say I'm gonna side with X2 in terms of tone and reason for question.

I love doc's communication and apt to debate when things come up.

However, a simple "using it for marketing, nothing has changed with the steel" would have suffice and nothing would have come from it.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

Hornet99 said:


> As an engineer, and one specialising in Stress analysis (which involves understanding material behaviours) I do love these conversations on WUS. I'm not trying to be patronising here saying I know more than you all, but it does always make me wonder of the level of stresses that a watchcase would see at say 300m under water and how that relates to the strength of the material.
> 
> Apparently the pressure at 300m is about 3013.63 kPa or ~3MPa and that's not a lot considering the strength of the material such as 316 stainless steel. And it's mainly a compressive stress that'll be generated as the pressure is all over and uniform. OK, so the case back will take some bending and there will be some tensile stresses, but I can't see it'll be much.
> 
> ...


You're pretty spot on. At depth, the caseback will be a big risk because the center of it can compress, flexing the edges up. In fact, even having a polished or machined back with a little spot where the machining or finishing terminated in the center can provide enough of a focal point for it to deform. In terms of practicality, I don't think the tensile strength of these cryo treated offer enough in terms of cost/benefit to shave a mm off here or there. Overall, these specialty steels offer scratch and ding protection from everyday wear. Which, given the historical use in the watch world of describing specialty steels as hardened a certain way I can see why X-2 Elijah was bothered. Heat treating and tempering are parts of the techniques of achieving the properties of almost any steel, though, to hear it describe a standard 316L when the descriptor of 'hardened' doesn't confer any actual difference from other 316L-it's just a true technicality (intrinsic of steel work)-not something conferring a benefit like scratch or dent resistance.






Sinn and Damasko, as far as I know, offer some extended warranty in regards to scratches and their watches. Sure, you can call it hype or fawning or whatever. The truth is, to some degree, their technology works.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I'll jump in here, because I can't help myself, and because I'm a mechanical engineer, specializing in materials. Boom. And you know what? ALL of those types of steel are WAY more adequate than that required to make a watch case. There are upsides and downsides to every material, for example: a sapphire crystal is very difficult to scratch, but will shatter. Acrylic is near impossible to crack, but easy to scratch. 

I swim and dive with all my watches, and tonight I will have one at 8000' pressure altitude. And I've never cracked one...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> I gotta say I'm gonna side with X2 in terms of tone and reason for question.
> 
> I love doc's communication and apt to debate when things come up.
> 
> ...


To be fair, this isn't the first time with him.

Just recently, I made an open-ended, not-directed-at-anyone comment about rubber compounds used for straps. Again, it was totally true, based on my research. X2 suggested I was knocking my competition, despite there being no mention of any, nor anything at all critical in what I said.

Also recently, I made some points about the value in timing and location when it comes to used market transactions. Again, nothing directed at anyone specifically, and nothing critical. X2 suggested there was something OTT in what I was saying, despite it being patently, if not obviously true.

It gets old. I'm happy to answer people's questions. I won't suffer people's hasty accusations.

Much more often than not, I know what I'm talking about. Very often, people discussing these things online really don't. I can't help it if you and he are dealing with misinformation spread by others, or just a set of bad assumptions.


----------



## stamonkey (Jan 1, 2015)

dmjonez said:


> I'll jump in here, because I can't help myself, and because I'm a mechanical engineer, specializing in materials. Boom. And you know what? ALL of those types of steel are WAY more adequate than that required to make a watch case. There are upsides and downsides to every material, for example: a sapphire crystal is very difficult to scratch, but will shatter. Acrylic is near impossible to crack, but easy to scratch.
> 
> I swim and dive with all my watches, and tonight I will have one at 8000' pressure altitude. And I've never cracked one...


I'm also a mechanical engineer and I agree with dmjonez, however I'm enjoying the hell out of the banter.

Doc, out of curiosity, do you get the material test results for your 316L?

As a side note, I've been on the fence about getting an NTH sub. This thread pushing me hard to pony up and get one.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> To be fair, this isn't the first time with him.
> 
> Just recently, I made an open-ended, not-directed-at-anyone comment about rubber compounds used for straps. Again, it was totally true, based on my research. X2 suggested I was knocking my competition, despite there being no mention of any, nor anything at all critical in what I said.
> 
> ...


I have noticed there has been some back and forth "debate" with you guys.

It seems X2 just tends to have a more skeptical line of questioning which can be critical at times.

I think from my personal standpoint, I like the debate but at times your tone through text comes across as more sensitive than you need to be.

We are all participating in this thread because we love almost everything your doing with your brand as a whole. We appreciate the communication, the transparency, your mindset when it comes to aspects of the watch, etc.

I guess my point is that you have enough cache with this group that brushing certain criticisms off would suit you well. Not getting into a back in forth all the time MIGHT be better.

However, on the flip side, the back and forth creates dialogue and engagement. So who's to say you're doing anything wrong, since obviously things are working.

Long way of saying, carry on... Lol

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Agreed on all.
> 
> I love when the lawyers chime in when we're discussing the law (seriously, not sarcastically). I equally love when the engineers chime in when discussing engineering, or the watchmakers chime in when discussing watchmaking.
> 
> ...


You're using the term ductility doc, that is a measure of a materials ability to undergo significant plastic deformation before rupture, usually this is expressed as a percentage strain. As a general rule of thumb for metals the more ductile a material is the lower its strength and the stronger it is the less ductile. But if you are talking about absorbing plastic deformation you've failed the component. Most metal structures will be designed to operate way below the yield strength, the point at which plastic or permanent deformation occurs. And usually because we have to consider fatigue we design significantly below the yield strength. Watches are no exception, they need to be repeatedly subjected to diving pressure loads so you'd never expect a watch case to be designed to ever let the material get into ductile behaviour. They'd be operating in the elastic regime where after loading and some deformation it returns to its original shape. Both ductility and elastic behaviour are typically shown in a materials Stress-strain curve. They are both connected.......


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

.









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

crappysurfer said:


> You're pretty spot on. At depth, the caseback will be a big risk because the center of it can compress, flexing the edges up. In fact, even having a polished or machined back with a little spot where the machining or finishing terminated in the center can provide enough of a focal point for it to deform. In terms of practicality, I don't think the tensile strength of these cryo treated offer enough in terms of cost/benefit to shave a mm off here or there. Overall, these specialty steels offer scratch and ding protection from everyday wear. Which, given the historical use in the watch world of describing specialty steels as hardened a certain way I can see why X-2 Elijah was bothered. Heat treating and tempering are parts of the techniques of achieving the properties of almost any steel, though, to hear it describe a standard 316L when the descriptor of 'hardened' doesn't confer any actual difference from other 316L-it's just a true technicality (intrinsic of steel work)-not something conferring a benefit like scratch or dent resistance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, small Kt (stress concentrations) could have an effect, but considering the low stresses the parts are subjected to the effect is probably negligible. Look at all the fancy case back engravings you get as testimonials to this......

Hardening the case surface won't do anything to the overall strength of the watch as the bulk of the metal will still be subject to the same stresses. Surface hardening is used, shot preening for example, to introduce localised surface compressive stresses. These are helpful to resist fatigue damage and prevent crack initiation. But you're effectively straining the material and that can have other penalties......


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

stamonkey said:


> I'm also a mechanical engineer and I agree with dmjonez, however I'm enjoying the hell out of the banter.
> 
> Doc, out of curiosity, do you get the material test results for your 316L?
> 
> As a side note, I've been on the fence about getting an NTH sub. This thread pushing me hard to pony up and get one.


I don't, but I slept in a Holiday Inn Express once, so...

Honestly, there are many things that people have asked me about, and I simply don't have any answer, because I never saw the point in having one. I think a lot of online watch discussion is just so deep in the weeds, that it doesn't add anything to someone's actual enjoyment.

Did any of this discussion really change anything, for anyone?

I read what brands say, and what people say about brands, and if I get curious enough to do research, I'll do some. It's not driven by any competitive agenda, only my own interest in developing my own knowledge and expertise in the subject matter.

This whole metals thing - true story...

A few years back, an absolute legend named Bill Cunningham did a series of threads, right here in F71, documenting his home-spun, custom chronograph case project. Apparently he was a retired metal worker, with what must have been tens of thousands of dollars worth of machinery in his home workshop. He was making a 440 steel case for what most would call a POS cheap digital chrono.

It was literally the most amazing series of threads I've ever seen.

I really liked Bill. He educated and informed a lot of people, and what he did was cool as hell (even though he decided not to name the watch the Billennium Falcon, as I'd suggested).

He ended up being a co-designer on the Acionna. When I did a thread on the topic of "why not" (what should exist, but for some unexplained reason, doesn't), he commented about not knowing why more companies don't use 440 steel in their cases (he didn't mention Damasko, as far as I remember). He suggested it was superior to 316 in most ways and couldn't see a reason NOT to use it.

I've always been a sucker for a well-posed challenge, so I took that one on, and started researching. I read a lot, and started making calls to some metal suppliers. I talked to machinists, engineers, and others. I learned about the three different scales for hardness, the correlating tests done for each, and thought about which was most applicable to watch cases. I actually built myself a little spreadsheet to convert Brunell and the other scale (I forget the name of it) to Vickers (the scale I deemed most applicable). Then I built myself a spreadsheet to compare all the different steels for which I was able to compile enough data to seem reliable.

Yes, I got nerdy with it.

My research had nothing to do with Sinn or Damasko, specifically. It was just a quest for knowledge. I figured out why most companies use 316, not 440. Because 440 is a bltch to work with, the processes required add a lot to the cost, and there are clear downsides.

That was 2013. Six years ago. I've never stopped thinking about this stuff, or learning about it (although I clearly still have a lot to learn).

It's irritating as f**k to do all that, to put that level of effort into something, an area where I am a true layman (I have a liberal arts degree, for crying out loud), and then to have someone who knows even less than I do suggest I'm bull$hltting people.

I don't bull$hlt people, ever, not about my business or what we do.

I'll lay this challenge down, publicly, for anyone to take up. Find any - FIND ONE - instance where I said something which was clearly untrue, and I would have known it was untrue at the time.

Yes, I've been wrong on occasion, and as often as I'm able, I come back and correct myself, making my mea culpa. When I'm wrong, I admit it. Much more often than not, when I'm debating something with someone, I'm right. I'm right, because I did my research, so I knew what I was talking about.

I may be an a$$hole, but I'm not a liar.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> You're using the term ductility doc, that is a measure of a materials ability to undergo significant plastic deformation before rupture, usually this is expressed as a percentage strain. As a general rule of thumb for metals the more ductile a material is the lower its strength and the stronger it is the less ductile. But if you are talking about absorbing plastic deformation you've failed the component. Most metal structures will be designed to operate way below the yield strength, the point at which plastic or permanent deformation occurs. And usually because we have to consider fatigue we design significantly below the yield strength. Watches are no exception, they need to be repeatedly subjected to diving pressure loads so you'd never expect a watch case to be designed to ever let the material get into ductile behaviour. They'd be operating in the elastic regime where after loading and some deformation it returns to its original shape. Both ductility and elastic behaviour are typically shown in a materials Stress-strain curve. They are both connected.......


Some part of me knew I might be conflating ductility with strength, possibly incorrectly. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> I have noticed there has been some back and forth "debate" with you guys.
> 
> It seems X2 just tends to have a more skeptical line of questioning which can be critical at times.
> 
> ...


If it proves I'm capable, I'll brush this criticism off, and not get into a back and forth about it.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

trying to decide if i'm a yes man, or an engineer today...decisions decisions









nah. just here for the watches

carry on


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> If it proves I'm capable, I'll brush this criticism off, and not get into a back and forth about it.


At the very least, it shows your a fast learner

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> At the very least, it shows your a fast learner
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


One of us is unclear about what "not getting into a back and forth" means.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> One of us is unclear about what "not getting into a back and forth" means.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Lol touche. i forgot to put the  face after my previous comment.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Coriolanus said:


> That is bloody ridiculous. And somehow charming. I'd like to see a side profile of that crystal and bezel.


As would I. Unfortunately that was the only pic I saw of it. This one is fairly similar though, without some of the cheeky dial text, and with a (IMO pointless) 24hr version of the bezel insert.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Hey Doc, when the BOR bracelets become available later this year, will you be selling them through your website or also offering through your retailers? TIA.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Hey Doc, when the BOR bracelets become available later this year, will you be selling them through your website or also offering through your retailers? TIA.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


More than likely both on our site and through retailers. I know some retailers are already interested, but I doubt they'll take them all.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

First customer pics I've seen of a Vanguard in the wild...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

saying hello wednesday


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Sometimes, reading this beautiful thread, confers in me, a sense that I am becoming smarter and dumber concurrently.


Or was it dumber and smarter...


No matter how passionate (a term one of my old bosses used after yelling at me, “ I wasn’t yelling, I am passionate”) this thread occasionally leans, the civility never really heads for the exits..


Also, German people kind of like engineering things... the quest to make things that already function fine, function more fine..


Also, wish I could afford a Damasko...



Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

stamonkey said:


> As a side note, I've been on the fence about getting an NTH sub. This thread pushing me hard to pony up and get one.


You should absolutely get an NTH sub. They're great watches.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

captainmorbid said:


> Also, wish I could afford a Damasko...


The one I owned for 20 minutes came from the factory with an obviously mis-aligned bezel. And their customer service is legendarily bad. And they rust.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

G'd morning Gents..........









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Some part of me knew I might be conflating ductility with strength, possibly incorrectly. Thanks for the clarification.


You're welcome Doc, a pleasure to help out!


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Avo said:


> The one I owned for 20 minutes came from the factory with an obviously mis-aligned bezel. And their customer service is legendarily bad. And they rust.


Luckily for me then.

Also, dammit...

Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I don't, but I slept in a Holiday Inn Express once, so...
> 
> Honestly, there are many things that people have asked me about, and I simply don't have any answer, because I never saw the point in having one. I think a lot of online watch discussion is just so deep in the weeds, that it doesn't add anything to someone's actual enjoyment.
> 
> ...


Hey, Miley Cyrus is available. I think she describes herself pretty much the same way.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

OK, one of the reasons I dumped my Scorpene was to pick up an Amphion Commando. Love the 12hr bezel, donchaknow. So this AM, I'm cruising around online, and what's posted to FB? Renders of Scorpenes with 12hr bezels. 

Yes, please. With date.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14443979


Figured this thing could be seen in the dark by Stevie Wonder with those huge markers. Leaving satisfied... 
Someone swap a scorpene bezel on to it. Could probably be used as a surgical lamp in a pinch.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Avo said:


> The one I owned for 20 minutes came from the factory with an obviously mis-aligned bezel. And their customer service is legendarily bad. And they rust.


Ha, add me to the list of Damasko haters, I paid 1400 for a "custom" DA46 for them to install the white seconds hand and no top ar crystal. Waited 2 months, got the watch with glue residue left over peaking below the insert, all the way around and dust on the dial. Sent it back within 10 minutes of receiving it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

My third NTH Subs arrived today, the Nazario Sauro. Thanks gelocks!
Quite possibly the most "experimental" of all Subs, in terms of dial design and colorway. The blue hour and minute hands are such great surprise, didn't expect that since nobody seems to have successfully captured it in their photos.
Out of curiosity, Doc, do you think that we will ever see a re-run of this Nazario Sauro sometime in the future?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> OK, one of the reasons I dumped my Scorpene was to pick up an Amphion Commando. Love the 12hr bezel, donchaknow. So this AM, I'm cruising around online, and what's posted to FB? Renders of Scorpenes with 12hr bezels.
> 
> Yes, please. With date.









-or-


----------



## ddru (Mar 2, 2018)

Tikuna no date is really calling my name but I told myself no more divers this year. Decisions decisions


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> OK, one of the reasons I dumped my Scorpene was to pick up an Amphion Commando. Love the 12hr bezel, donchaknow. So this AM, I'm cruising around online, and what's posted to FB? Renders of Scorpenes with 12hr bezels.
> 
> Yes, please. With date.


Aaaannnnddddd...now I know your real name.

Mmmmmmmuuuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhaaaaaahhhhh!!!












wtma said:


> My third NTH Subs arrived today, the Nazario Sauro. Thanks gelocks!
> Quite possibly the most "experimental" of all Subs, in terms of dial design and colorway. The blue hour and minute hands are such great surprise, didn't expect that since nobody seems to have successfully captured it in their photos.
> Out of curiosity, Doc, do you think that we will ever see a re-run of this Nazario Sauro sometime in the future?


I honestly can't remember if we said that was a "limited" edition or not. I can't tell you how many times I told Keil to NOT call them "limited", for this exact reason, and to simply say they were "exclusive" to Watch Gauge.

Either way - meh, I dunno, but I doubt we'd make more of them, at least not exactly the same. Never say never, but between doing something new and doing something we've already done, we generally lean towards the new.



mconlonx said:


> View attachment 14444809
> -or-
> View attachment 14444811


Thought about doing a poll here on WUS, but decided against it.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

^^I’d love to see a reissue, but am excited/hopeful to see a new Nazario to throw my money at. I like the Azzurro and Ghost but the Sauro is tops in my eyes. White Cali dial, pretty please.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 14444809
> -or-
> View attachment 14444811


Yes! I think the minute markers on the bezel are a bit too much and these are very nice solutions


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Aaaannnnddddd...now I know your real name.
> 
> Mmmmmmmuuuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhaaaaaahhhhh!!!


Meh. Lots of people do... If you dug far enough into NTH web shop records, and matched it up to a post here, you'd get to the same place.



docvail said:


> mconlonx said:
> 
> 
> > View attachment 14444809
> ...


Well since you asked...

C. minute dots between all the 12hr bezel indexes. Remember, this is the Scorpene = all the lume features.
D. Stainless bezel with arabic hour markers in black, lume bezel, and dots/no dots/whatever. 
E. Just swap over the Amphion Commando bezel, but do a full lume triangle with a couple lume dots next to it. Extra bonus if you lume the 12hr markers, too.

But for A-D, and especially the two you put up for vote, please, please, please match the font/typeface for the numbers on the bezel to the big number style of the numbers on the dial...


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I don’t do FB, so quit holding out and post the poll. 

I like the two I’ve seen thus far... the Scorpene has always been on my “list” and a 12-hr bezel could tip me over. I like pulling further from the source inspiration and keeping it fresh... mconlonx has some good ideas.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wasn't looking for alternative suggestions. 

Don't be a font n4zi.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Wasn't looking for alternative suggestions.


Well, no, of course not, but you did post to the interwebz, so it's inferred...

Scorpene with 12hr bezel -- don't really care which bezel makes the cut, produce it (with a date) and I will be on board. ...and there will be a used Amphion Commando for sale...


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Aaaannnnddddd...now I know your real name.
> 
> Mmmmmmmuuuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhaaaaaahhhhh!!!
> 
> ...


The Scorpene was the first Nth sub that really caught my eye, but the real life length of the minute markers gave it a completely different look to the renders (which probably made it more popular given how it made the lume shots appear).

If the new version looks like either of these I'll pledge right now. Doubly so if there's gonna be a blue one. I don't have a 3 6 9 sub and I don't have a blue Nth, or a green or red one for that matter.

This is the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night 

watch addict in recovery


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> A few years back, an absolute legend named Bill Cunningham did a series of threads, right here in F71, documenting his home-spun, custom chronograph case project. Apparently he was a retired metal worker, with what must have been tens of thousands of dollars worth of machinery in his home workshop. He was making a 440 steel case for what most would call a POS cheap digital chrono.


Holy $%!t, this is easily the best thread on WUS and I read a few! Bookmarked and I should probably download it for offline re-reading and education just in case.

I also plan to make my "one-of-a-kind" watch when I find the time which will be in around 30 years, so stay alive everyone 

Missed the discussion about steels and just to add a few cents.

316L is good enough to withstand anything most of us do and very likely the best decision if one was to factor everything in. There are so many steels out there and we could easily have our own forum to discuss them exclusively so I don't think 10 or 1000 pages of discussion will yield the ultimate answer.

Especially on knife forums there are many "steel snobs", you could compare them to "swiss made" or "in-house" snobs here and many of them are collectors who never use the knives they own - similar to serious watch collectors.

I am pretty sure that when factoring in cost, it wouldn't make any sense for doc or other micros to approach exotic steels, still a watch in H1 (pretty much rust proof) or M390 (my EDC knife) steel would sound like fun.

RE water resistance: I am surprised that not a single other manufacturer considered approaching the vostok amphibia caseback design which is superior from a technical point of view. Having a thick and wide gasket that gets pressed by the caseback and an additional ring which pushes against it helps for a safer gasket installation and a better force distribution on the gasket since it eliminates the lateral forces that occur due to the caseback being screwed into the case.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> Well, no, of course not, but you did post to the interwebz, so it's inferred...
> 
> Scorpene with 12hr bezel -- don't really care which bezel makes the cut, produce it (with a date) and I will be on board. ...and there will be a used Amphion Commando for sale...


Ugh. Muh inferences...

If we make it, we'll make it with both date and no-date versions. Have no fear of that.



illumidata said:


> The Scorpene was the first Nth sub that really caught my eye, but the real life length of the minute markers gave it a completely different look to the renders (which probably made it more popular given how it made the lume shots appear).
> 
> If the new version looks like either of these I'll pledge right now. Doubly so if there's gonna be a blue one. I don't have a 3 6 9 sub and I don't have a blue Nth, or a green or red one for that matter.
> 
> ...


The Scorpene has some weird stuff about it. It's not like other NTH Subs, for some reason.

When we first launched NTH with 8 Subs designs, before we launched pre-orders, we did a pre-order interest survey, with well over 1,000 respondents, to see how the models would rank from most to least popular. I wanted to make sure we had the right numbers of each model available at each pre-order price tier.

The Scorpene was the clear winner. I was certain we'd sell a ton of them. But when we opened pre-orders, we didn't. In fact, it turned out to be near the bottom of the pack. Sales on most of the other models stayed pretty true to what we expected based on that survey. The Scorpene was the only one that was surprisingly different. After production, it was one of the last models to sell out, and so, I wasn't in any rush to make more.

My best guess at an explanation is that because we let people "pick" more than one in that survey, the Scorpene did well overall by being near the top of a lot of people's lists, but it didn't sell as well as expected because most people will of course just buy whichever one is their favorite, and the Scorpene must have been a lot of people's 2nd or 3rd choice.

Not counting the blue version, I think this most recent batch we made this year is the first time we made any since the first batch. They did okay, not bad, not great. They're sold out everywhere now (and of course, now I get people asking when we'll make more). For some reason, they apparently sold really well through our retailer in South Korea, and he was asking for more immediately, because of the demand he saw for them.

I don't know why it's not more popular. I love mine.

And it's huge in S. Korea.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> *If *we make it,... [WUT?!?]
> 
> ...And it's huge in S. Korea.


You should make it. For South Korea. And, y'know, make it available in the USA, too...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Holy $%!t, this is easily the best thread on WUS and I read a few! Bookmarked and I should probably download it for offline re-reading and education just in case.


What part of "absolute legend" made that thread a surprise?

Seriously, though, he did 2-3 threads like that. Check out his "threads started" history by way of his profile.

Like I said, he is (was, maybe?) an awesome guy. We ended up conversing away from the forum, about the design of the Acionna, and all that metals stuff. To me, at that time, when I literally knew nothing on the subject, he sure seemed like the foremost authority on metallurgy to me.

I don't remember exactly when we lost touch, sometime in 2014, I guess. He hasn't posted here since then, so who knows if he's still around.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Luuurve mine too.......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I don't know why it's not more popular. I love mine.


I always *want* a Scorpene, but then there's always something else that nabs me at the last minute. I think you're probably right that it's popular, but not the most popular, and gets slotted as the "runner up". Which is a shame (for me) because, yes, I want one. When are you making more? 

Seriously, though, I _do_ think one of the new bezel options would actually make me pull the trigger. It tones it down a bit and would make it a bit more wearable for me in more settings.


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Ugh. Muh inferences...
> 
> If we make it, we'll make it with both date and no-date versions. Have no fear of that.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong, I think they're awesome and the world is a better place because of them, and there's nothing to touch them in the high contrast, monochrome, visual impact stakes. If you hadn't made the Ghost, which is just the right kind of minimalistic, balanced look for me, I would have probably ended up with one, or even a black Odin...

Pure conjecture, but maybe there's something about the Scorpene that created some kind of cultural resonance in S.Korea...like a correlation between the density of the dial design and the written language.

Completely OT now but I remember in the really early days of L&H you explaining how the brand name was a phonetic rendition of the Mandarin for "reincarnation", and the reasons behind your choice. Always struck me as exceptionally thoughtful.

Tl;dr, you've got a subconscious affinity with certain market sectors 

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



illumidata said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think they're awesome and the world is a better place because of them, and there's nothing to touch them in the high contrast, monochrome, visual impact stakes. If you hadn't made the Ghost, which is just the right kind of minimalistic, balanced look for me, I would have probably ended up with one, or even a black Odin...
> 
> Pure conjecture, but maybe there's something about the Scorpene that created some kind of cultural resonance in S.Korea...like a correlation between the density of the dial design and the written language.
> 
> ...


Maybe, to all of that.

What I find interesting is that when people say the Scorpene looks like _____, they almost always say either a Sinn or a Seiko Spork, but I never see anyone mention both at once. Perhaps it's some indication of people's existing biases/beliefs/buying habits. And, if so, maybe there's a big cult following for the Spork in S.Korea, or maybe it's Japan, nearby, and our S.Korea retailer gets some business from there.

People have commented that the Scorpene's dial and/or bezel is too "busy", and suggested the lines should have been made shorter, or narrower.

People are wrong.

We need to make the bezel engravings a minimum width just to lume them. Ditto the minute markers on the dial. We've lumed thinner minute markers on the dial, and no one even mentions it. If you're going to do it, you gotta go wider for people to notice. With a smaller case than either the Sinn 857 or Spork, it's going to look more crowded, naturally.

Too crowded? Pffffft. Nonsense. It's LUMED! Not just the bezel pip and the hour markers. ALL OF THEM! Every damned marker!

How can people get tight in the shorts over a lumed date wheel ("Ooooohhh...it's the evening of the 4th!"), but NOT want all the glorious lume of the Scorpene?

Seiko and Sinn don't lume all the markers.

Pffffft. Amateurs.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I didn’t vote on FB yet, but, all the dots.

Better visual balance.


Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I actually bought a Sinn 856 UTC from a WUS member out of S. Korea. And I've noticed it was not the first or last Sinn he's sold.

There's another guy around here somewhere who has a LE white Sinn 556I with applied indices which was either one SK vendor or S Korea specific and limited to 50 watches.

So where the Scorpene black is a pretty decent homage (with much better lume) and a smaller size than a Sinn 857, pretty much a natural for the market there.

I sold off a Sinn 556A and not too long after, bought a Scorpene. Love the Big Number style and a step up with the lume, plus a bezel. But I do like a 12hr bezel, so when the Amphion Commando was announced, Scorpene got kicked to the curb. Scorpene with 12hr bezel...? Oh yesssss, please...


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Ragl said:


> Luuurve mine too.......
> 
> View attachment 14445633
> 
> ...


Disregard my previous comment. This just works. Let the Scorpene be the Scorpene.

Now, if I could only find a blue one...

Edit: The Watchdrobe has one (just one). Exchange rate is not favorable, but that may the price to play today. Otherwise, WR/eBay is our friend.

My alignment is toward the Spork... for the new 12-hr bezels, if this happens, I'd choose the continuous dots between the hour markers.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Ragl said:


> Luuurve mine too.......
> 
> View attachment 14445633
> 
> ...


Hot damn!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Disregard my previous comment. This just works. Let the Scorpene be the Scorpene.
> 
> Now, if I could only find a blue one...
> 
> ...


The HK dollar is pegged to ours. The exchange rate never changes.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> The HK dollar is pegged to ours. The exchange rate never changes.


I think you've told me this before, whoops. Well, then, there you go.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Maybe, to all of that.
> 
> What I find interesting is that when people say the Scorpene looks like _____, they almost always say either a Sinn or a Seiko Spork, but I never see anyone mention both at once. Perhaps it's some indication of people's existing biases/beliefs/buying habits. And, if so, maybe there's a big cult following for the Spork in S.Korea, or maybe it's Japan, nearby, and our S.Korea retailer gets some business from there.
> 
> ...


Just thinking aloud










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Just thinking aloud
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's kinda cool, I like that minus the bezel and on an alligator strap.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I personally think the Scorpene dial is too busy and the minute markers are too big, but that's why there's more than one Sub model, right? I love the way B&R does that style of watch, particularly the steel bezel GMT version, a watch with almost no lume at all on it other than the hands. IMO it looks gorgeous. Others may prefer the Scorpene. This is why there's more than one kind of watch.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Davekaye90 said:


> I personally think the Scorpene dial is too busy and the minute markers are too big, but that's why there's more than one Sub model, right? I love the way B&R does that style of watch, particularly the steel bezel GMT version, a watch with almost no lume at all on it other than the hands. IMO it looks gorgeous. Others may prefer the Scorpene. This is why there's more than one kind of watch.
> 
> View attachment 14446681


Even Seiko have one without being a diver.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Rolex, too. 

If you count the Explorer. 

And many, many others. Omega Railmaster comes to mind. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Hwa is where bezels go to die.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

liquidtension said:


> Even Seiko have one without being a diver.
> View attachment 14446701


And they are among the lowest priced Seiko with sapphire crystals



SRPB65 & SRPB63


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

yankeexpress said:


> And they are among the lowest priced Seiko with sapphire crystals


unfortunately, discontinued just like their other good ones


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Really hilarious video from Watchfinder. Most amusing is that these monsters likely can't survive so much as a drop on a hard floor from counter height. No AP is going to outlast a solar G-shock, that's for sure.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Toonces said:


> Hwa is where bezels go to die.


I have bezels. Some come to me to reach for the heavens









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

hwa said:


> I have bezels. Some come to me to reach for the heavens
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice!

Do you happen to know the dimensions and is the WR maintained? Is the readability different?

I love hoarding spare parts that I might need in 10+ years. I believe to have around 5+ bezels and straps for my g-shock ... just in case.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Might be a shade early, but starting to allow myself to get excited about the prospect of my Kracken joining my Nacken.















Anyone else in on these?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3-1-1 said:


> Might be a shade early, but starting to allow myself to get excited about the prospect of my Kracken joining my Nacken.
> [/ATTACH=CONFIG]14448689[/ATTACH]
> [/ATTACH=CONFIG]14448695[/ATTACH]
> 
> Anyone else in on these?


Yup, in on a dark blue dial with NH35, ratcheting clasp, and spare 12-hour bezel 

I've never tried Ti before so I'm curious to check it out. I doubt I'll hang on to it but who knows, it could be a cool alternative to a Pelagos.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

welp, as long as you're talking about blue watches...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> Might be a shade early, but starting to allow myself to get excited about the prospect of my Kracken joining my Nacken.


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

The Watcher said:


> welp, as long as you're talking about blue watches...
> 
> View attachment 14448797


Wow. Looks awesome on the BOR.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Really liking this useful 12Hr/Countdown bezel insert, with my favorite MilSub sword hands. Maybe Doc will do a blue dial with red sweep version next


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

Day 2 with the Sauro


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

NTH Amphion Commando

























Perspective, on a 7" wrist.









Lume shot's a bit blurry, but you get the idea...


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

The Commando has joined the Barracuda and the Oberon!!

Wonderful watch and spot on homage to the P01!

Pros/Cons of the watch:

(Pros)

- love the metal finish on the bezel
- markers on the dial are very 'vintage'...love the minute track on the edge of the dial
- hands are very elegant, well done and very reminiscent of the MilSub
- same perfect case that NTH uses (perfect dimensions and thickness)
- super stiff/precise bezel action with ZERO back play

(Cons)

- super stiff/precise bezel action with ZERO back play (very hard to turn...not as buttery smooth as the Barracuda)
- rotor spin is super noisy and watch vibrates as the rotor spins (not that much noticeable)

Overall I'm super stocked about this piece!

John K/ Chris Doc....KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

I'm a big NTH fan.

JD31

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_7066.jpg


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> NTH Amphion Commando
> 
> [/attach]14450425[/attach]
> 
> ...


Don't be thinking I didn't peep that Bill Jones School of Photography entry...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

B

A little Skipper schmutz on the bezel at 3


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

yankeexpress said:


> B
> 
> A little Skipper schmutz on the bezel at 3


WHO'S A GOOD BOY?

Doc Savage


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Every time I see Hamtun I read "Hamster."

...not to be confused with "Hamstur" the forum member...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

jerseydan31 said:


> (Cons)
> 
> - super stiff/precise bezel action with ZERO back play (very hard to turn...not as buttery smooth as the Barracuda)
> - rotor spin is super noisy and watch vibrates as the rotor spins (not that much noticeable)
> ...


I'm curious how much rotor noise on the 9015 varies sample to sample. It's been awhile, but I don't recall my Nacken being all that loud, and my Aevig isn't. My Visitor VPO was though, which I chalked up to the display back not blocking as much noise as a solid caseback. It may just be coincidence, but my Miyota and STP 1-11 powered watches with glass backs have been much louder than steel back watches with the same movement that I've owned. FWIW, all of my Seikos with display backs have been dead silent.

That's the Miyota wobble when the rotor is free spinning. They all do that.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Two tropics.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

First review of the Tikuna is up at the Time Bum.

NTH Tikuna | The Time Bum


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> I'm curious how much rotor noise on the 9015 varies sample to sample. It's been awhile, but I don't recall my Nacken being all that loud, and my Aevig isn't. My Visitor VPO was though, which I chalked up to the display back not blocking as much noise as a solid caseback. It may just be coincidence, but my Miyota and STP 1-11 powered watches with glass backs have been much louder than steel back watches with the same movement that I've owned. FWIW, all of my Seikos with display backs have been dead silent.
> 
> That's the Miyota wobble when the rotor is free spinning. They all do that.


There is some variation from sample to sample. The rotor noise some people hear is from the bearings in the rotor assembly. The noise happens when it's spinning in the non-winding direction.

Sometimes, they're lightly lubricated, which makes them slightly louder. Less lubrication, while making them somewhat louder, also makes them freer-spinning, and more efficient auto-winders, albeit at the cost of more wear and tear on the parts. Adding some lubrication will quiet them down, but also slow the rotor, making it a less efficient auto-winder.

I had my old watchmaker make these videos to demonstrate:











It also seems that caseback material and thickness will also play a role. Solid casebacks tend to be better at muffling the noise than transparent casebacks, and with either, the thicker they are (for higher WR), the better. With the NTH Subs, we made them as thin as possible while still able to meet the 300m WR spec.

Seikos and other bi-directional winders are typically going to be less noisy, because there is no non-winding direction.

The comments about noise from the rotor remain a bit perplexing to me. I've had dozens of 9015's in my collection, and never noticed noise from one on my wrist. I've QC'd thousands of watches with them, and never found any of them to be loud enough for me to think someone would hear one while just walking around while wearing it.

The wobble? It's from the rotor slowing down from spinning in the non-winding direction. I've felt it occasionally. It's never bothered me. To me it's just a cool little quirk, like a built-in fidget-spinner.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Trying on straps on the Odin black while the blue keeps me company. Think I’ll go for the grey canvas for now.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

It's Odin time........










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Man Liquidtension, that is one way to solve the dilemma! What a great combo.


----------



## The Dude Hank (Feb 19, 2018)

Just got my first Nth yesterday. I'm a big fan of the Miyota 9 series and don't mind the occasional rotor noice. Hardly notice anyway since I have bad tinnitus.  And I have a bunch of Seiko kinetics and actually enjoy getting their rotors going (I know they're charging).

As I took the watch off last night I was playing with it to admire it from different angles and such. When I put it down on the dresser a weird tone was apparently coming from it. Never heard anything like it. When I picked it up the tone disappeared, but I could still slightly hear some rotor noice, though. Played around some more and realized the free spinning rotor was causing the watch to apparently vibrate at just the right frequency to send harmonics out through the dresser top which was creating a much louder humming tone.

So of course I have a new toy and challenge! Gotta make the dresser sing! Can't get a similar reaction from other watches, even other 9015s. Must be just the perfect combination of build, structure, movement, etc. matching up perfectly with the dresser material to cause the vibrations.









The Dude Abides


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> The comments about noise from the rotor remain a bit perplexing to me. I've had dozens of 9015's in my collection, and never noticed noise from one on my wrist. I've QC'd thousands of watches with them, and never found any of them to be loud enough for me to think someone would hear one while just walking around while wearing it.
> 
> The wobble? It's from the rotor slowing down from spinning in the non-winding direction. I've felt it occasionally. It's never bothered me. To me it's just a cool little quirk, like a built-in fidget-spinner.


Very occasionally I'll flick my wrist quickly in just the right way, which will get the rotor in my Huldra spinning, and I'll hear it. It doesn't bother me at all though because it's not that loud, lasts maybe 2 seconds, and is a pretty benign noise. Even though it's a bi-directional movement, in my anecdotal experience the two STP 1-11s I had could make a much uglier scraping noise after a couple of wrist flicks, but that seemed to require purposefully moving the watch to get it to do that. The VPO was definitely louder than I would've liked, but I could've lived with that if that was the only issue. Really the only major noise problem I've had with any of my mechanicals was with my Zodiac Sea Wolf 53 Skin, and it was the balance wheel, not the rotor that was the problem. That watch ticked _incredibly_ loudly, to the point that in a quiet room I could hear it ticking away at arms length. That grew on my nerves enough that I sold it because of that.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

The Dude Hank said:


> Played around some more and realized the free spinning rotor was causing the watch to apparently vibrate at just the right frequency to send harmonics out through the dresser top which was creating a much louder humming tone.


I had the same experience with a dressy watch with (I presume) a thin case back (and the 9015 movement). I have several 9015s, and while I can hear rotor noise if I hold them to my ear, I've never noticed it in any ordinary situation. That is until I took off my this particular watch one day & put it down on an old wooden dresser, with the case back down flat. Then I heard this strikingly loud whirring noise! I suppose it was probably not really all THAT loud, but it was clearly audible in the quiet room from a few feet away.

But without the amplification from the sympathetic vibrations of the dresser top, I essentially never notice rotor noise from my 9015s (or any other movement, for that matter).


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Doc,

Just wondering how do you measure both crown and bezel action from sample to sample?

My Amphion Commando’s crown and bezel action is not as smooth than my Barracuda (very stiff and gritty).

My older Oberon is also a joy to operate.

????

Sorry to be so picky. 

THX!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Ol skool today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

12-hour bezel brothers. I love these things


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Toonces said:


> Hwa is where bezels go to die.


Ahahahahahahahah! That's perfect.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So with all of the cool watch designs based on names of classes of subs, I’m holding out for Doc to come up with an original cool design for the “Nautilus”. I mean that has got to be done! Jules Verne would feel so slighted!!


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Rhorya said:


> So with all of the cool watch designs based on names of classes of subs, I'm holding out for Doc to come up with an original cool design for the "Nautilus". I mean that has got to be done! Jules Verne would feel so slighted!!


Maybe a blue dial with a horizontal stripe pattern?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jerseydan31 said:


> Doc,
> 
> Just wondering how do you measure both crown and bezel action from sample to sample?
> 
> ...


Is this not the exact conversation we had by email last week?

We don't have a metric for "feel". Feel can vary from one piece to another. Oftentimes the feel will change/soften over time.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> So with all of the cool watch designs based on names of classes of subs, I'm holding out for Doc to come up with an original cool design for the "Nautilus". I mean that has got to be done! Jules Verne would feel so slighted!!


Doc cannot. JZ already did. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

hwa said:


> Doc cannot. JZ already did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is it just me or does that look a lot like the NTH Carolina?

Looking at that pic I am thinking, "I know that watch!"










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Wrong thread! 🙄


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Doc said that the Sub is too thin to do a sandwich dial? That's probably where I'd go with something called the Nautilus, something like the LaVenture Sous-Marine.


----------



## Pugzilla (Sep 2, 2019)

Hi, I'm considering getting a NTH sub, possibly the Barracuda. Looking for some opinions from long term wearers.

I was wondering how the scratch resistance of a DLC coated steel bezel compares to a ceramic bezel? 

This would be main concern. Is there any particular reason steel was chosen over ceramic besides cost savings? Some might say that it fits the vintage look, but the longevity of ceramics trumps that in my opinion. Sapphire crystal shouldn't be used either if that's the case.

Also why a Miyota instead of ETA? I've seen case thickness being used as an argument, but it sounds like another cost saving exercise considering majority of people don't have issues with an increased case thickness.

I normally expect these features for a microbrand at this price point which is turning me away from a purchase.

Thanks


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Pugzilla said:


> Hi, I'm considering getting a NTH sub, possibly the Barracuda. Looking for some opinions from long term wearers.
> 
> I was wondering how the scratch resistance of a DLC coated steel bezel compares to a ceramic bezel?
> 
> ...


You should only buy if you like the design as is and you're completely happy with all the price / performance variables, otherwise it'll just nag at you.

FWIW:
My bezels remain immaculate after plenty of normal wear and bumps. 
Both my Nths run +/- 3spd out of the box, which is better than all the elabore grade ETAs ive bought from the likes of Stowa and mkii (and for which I paid a premium). Standard grade movements are all a bit of a lottery anyway, but there's clearly some very good QC going on before shipping.

IMHO:
The BVB is one of the best looking and wearing watches you'll ever see in the metal, it's right up there with the most expensive watches in my collection. Absolutely love it.








There are much better photos of it out there, but you get the idea.

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

These exact topics have been discussed ad nauseam in this thread. Use the forum search tools to search the thread for terms like bezel, ceramic, miyota, and eta. You'll see the answers to your questions laid out over and over again. In fact, if you want to learn more about miyota vs eta, search the entire site, the whole internet, etc. That horse was dead years ago and you can find every beating it's gotten since.

Finally, if there were issues with the bezel you'd have people coming out of the woodwork by now. The subs and their "not ceramic" bezel have been around for years, with thousands sold - I purchased three from the first batch - and I cannot recall anyone saying anything about the bezels other than how amazing their turning action is.

If you want a watch with a ceramic bezel and an ETA movement they are definitely out there, especially if you don't mind increased case thickness.



Pugzilla said:


> Hi, I'm considering getting a NTH sub, possibly the Barracuda. Looking for some opinions from long term wearers.
> 
> I was wondering how the scratch resistance of a DLC coated steel bezel compares to a ceramic bezel?
> 
> ...


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

CMFord said:


> These exact topics have been discussed ad nauseam in this thread. Use the forum search tools to search the thread for terms like bezel, ceramic, miyota, and eta. You'll see the answers to your questions laid out over and over again. In fact, if you want to learn more about miyota vs eta, search the entire site, the whole internet, etc. That horse was dead years ago and you can find every beating it's gotten since.
> 
> Finally, if there were issues with the bezel you'd have people coming out of the woodwork by now. The subs and their "not ceramic" bezel have been around for years, with thousands sold - I purchased three from the first batch - and I cannot recall anyone saying anything about the bezels other than how amazing their turning action is.
> 
> If you want a watch with a ceramic bezel and an ETA movement they are definitely out there, especially if you don't mind increased case thickness.


We got baited by a sock puppet, check the post count.

Watch Addict In Recovery


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Pugzilla said:


> Hi, I'm considering getting a NTH sub, possibly the Barracuda. Looking for some opinions from long term wearers.
> 
> I was wondering how the scratch resistance of a DLC coated steel bezel compares to a ceramic bezel?
> 
> ...


Don't get one, as you've already decided what is important to you.

But just for the sake of discussion, ceramic is fragile. Ceramic doesn't scratch, it cracks. Google it. Steel bezels don't scratch, aluminum does.

Miyota movements are bullet-proof, and don't require as frequent a service interval. If at all. Mine are all accurate.

Thin is everything. These divers are thin. If you want a thick diver, most others are thick with a few notable exceptions, found in another thread here.

There seems to be some current discussion about "price point" in WUS lately that focuses ONLY on specs: "ceramic bezel, eta, etc"...

Thin is everything to me. Thick watches are bulky, inconvenient, and uncomfortable. To me.

Everyone who wears one of these seems to find that it's a favorite watch. But there are others to whom different things matter. There is no right answer, only personal taste and preference. If it's not calling to you, go get something else. There's no "right answer" contrary to recent arguments to the contrary. If the specs of the NTH watches don't call to you, go find the brand that does. It's not a contest.

Oh, and one final point: Strolling into a thread wherein owners discuss their appreciation for a brand and announcing "I've discovered all the flaws in your choices" is akin to walking into a Chinese restaurant and declaring "Mexican food is better, and I expect tacos at this price point". There is a pretty tight contest for buyers between manufacturers, and there have apparently been instances where trolls spend their time trying to sway potential buyers to "spend their money elsewhere. i.e. over here on this other brand with an ETA and a ceramic bezel..." If you look at the post count in here, you'll see that most of the NTH buyers have been around for a bit. Personally I've owned about 60 watches. I tried them and wore them. And sold them. These fit me, and those "you should get a ceramic bezel" arguments don't make a 16mm watch fit on my wrist.

Buy what you like.

Edit: I originally said above that ceramic shatters, and I wrote that in error due to haste. Sapphire shatters, ceramic cracks...

https://www.watchuseek.com/f23/gmt-ceramic-bezel-shattered-231967.html


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Not so much responding to the dead horse inquiry as I am just noting about bezel insert materials:

How the insert material matches the rest of the overall design of a watch is, IMO, most important.

Some designs look best with aluminum, some with steel, some with sapphire, some with ceramic, and so forth.

More of my watches are tool-y, so they look best with steel bezel inserts, followed by aluminum (the BB58 isn't mine).



















Sapphire bezel inserts are cool for a vintage look. Shiny ceramic for a bling-y dress diver look.



















I've had at least one matte ceramic bezel insert (on a Nodus Avalon) and I was impressed with it. I'd be open to seeing increased use of this type of material to see if it could trump steel as my favorite on tool-y watches (but I doubt it as it has a bit of a rubbery look).










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Is this not the exact conversation we had by email last week?
> 
> We don't have a metric for "feel". Feel can vary from one piece to another. Oftentimes the feel will change/soften over time.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Hello Doc,

yes this is a similar issue. When threading/unthreading the crown on the Commando it feels like digging in sand.

No worries. I'm good with it.

Barraduca is as smooth as butter. I'm willing to send you both watches (on me) so that you can see the difference in person.

I'm sure that there's no need. but just wanted to give you feedback (from a big believer in your brand and what you do).

THX again and take care.

JD31


----------



## Pugzilla (Sep 2, 2019)

What do you mean by sock puppet? I came hear to ask for opinions. There's not much mention of this brand on other forums.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jerseydan31 said:


> Hello Doc,
> 
> yes this is a similar issue. When threading/unthreading the crown on the Commando it feels like digging in sand.
> 
> ...


Dan, just to reiterate what we discussed in our email exchange:

1. If you bought the watch from one of our retailers, and you think there's something legitimately wrong with it, the retailer is the first point of contact for support. The retailer should hopefully be doing some troubleshooting with you. That's their job, and why I sell through retailers.

2. There is no sending it back to me, "just to check out", for reasons I explained. We don't want people sending watches back to us when there's nothing wrong. We already did QC, multiple rounds of it. We're not going to re-check every watch because someone imagines there might be something wrong based on "feel".

3. There's no metric for bezel or crown "feel" or "sound". We check both multiple times before we ship. They work correctly or they don't. If they work correctly, then there's nothing wrong. One watch's bezel or crown may feel and sound slightly different than another's, for various reasons.

4. Read my signature. This thread, and all social media, are NOT how we deliver customer support. If there's a problem with a watch you purchased second-hand or directly from the NTH site, the way to reach us for support is through email or the contact page on the website.

But, since we're here:

The bezel only turns counter-clockwise, and clicks 120 times. Does that describe your bezel? Yes? Then there's nothing wrong with it.

The feel may and likely will soften up with use. If it feels like there's some grit causing added resistance, there may in fact be some trapped under it. Make sure the crown is screwed down all the way, and soak it in some water overnight. That should get the grit out.

Make sure you're washing it with tap water after using it in salt water or a pool.

The crown feel may likewise vary from piece to piece, due to crown stem length and lubrication in the assembly. Does it wind the watch, and set the date/time? Yes? Then there's nothing wrong with it.

If you feel something "gritty" while screwing it down or unscrewing it, there may be some grit on the threads. Running some waxed dental floss over them should sort it out.

If the bezel turns clockwise, or if the crown doesn't wind the watch and set the date/time, let us know. Otherwise, just enjoy the watch. Stop obsessing over sound/feel of one compared to another, because you will inevitably find some variations, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pugzilla said:


> What do you mean by sock puppet? I came hear to ask for opinions. There's not much mention of this brand on other forums.


No worries. WUS searching isn't very user friendly.

Rest assured, though: LENGTHY dialogues re: your questions/concerns can be found by key word searching around this thread.

Most of us are just locals to this thread, so "tired" questions from newer discoverers of NTH/Subs tend to get short shrift, for better or worse.

Once you do some background research through this thread (and read some critical reviews elsewhere), you'll be able to jump into the convo without feeling dismissed.

But again, no worries. I've been hanging out here for awhile but I still sometimes misfire and a question or comment I throw out doesn't gain any traction or, I imagine, garners some eye rolls. It happens 

If all else fails, just post a watch picture 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Pugzilla said:


> Hi, I'm considering getting a NTH sub, possibly the Barracuda. Looking for some opinions from long term wearers.
> 
> I was wondering how the scratch resistance of a DLC coated steel bezel compares to a ceramic bezel?
> 
> ...


We've delivered over 2,000 watches with PVD/DLC coated steel bezel inserts. Our rate of replacement request is extremely low. We require pictures of damaged inserts before providing a replacement, and when we can, we get the damaged parts back. Even when there is some damage, it's almost always very slight, and almost impossible to notice.

Ceramic is harder than steel, so it's less likely to be scratched. But, harder is also more brittle, so while our steel bezels are easier to scratch by comparison, they're all but impossible to break, whereas ceramic can be cracked or shattered/broken:









How often does that happen? I dunno. How often to people bang their watch into something hard enough to scratch the bezel? If you bang it that hard, cracking/breaking the ceramic insert is a possibility, no? Judging by how much discussion I've seen of bracelet screws backing out (or spring bars popping out), it seems like a watch flying off the wrist is always a possibility.

Knowing all this, we made a decision to use steel over ceramic, not because it was less expensive, but because we felt that it's overall durability makes it a better all-around choice than ceramic.

The 9015 / 9039 / 90S5 is a peach of a movement. In every possible objective way, it beats both a standard and elabore grade ETA 2824-2, hands down. And yes, it is much thinner.

A watch is more than the sum of its components and spec sheet. If having a ceramic bezel insert and ETA movement are important to you, they're out there in watches in the same price range as the NTH subs. You won't need to look too hard to find them.

I'd recommend checking out Steinhart and Davosa for similarly-styled watches with those features. I'm sure there are others, but those are the only two that come immediately to mind as making Sub-style watches with ETA movements and ceramic bezel inserts.

Good luck finding what you want. Sorry we can't provide it.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Pugzilla said:


> What do you mean by sock puppet? I came hear to ask for opinions. There's not much mention of this brand on other forums.


The short, short version: DLC coated steel is more durable and scratch resistant that aluminum, less brittle than ceramic. The look is also somewhat unique, you either like it or you don't. IMO Doc's bezel's look much better than some matte ceramic bezels I've seen which can look like chalkboards. The Miyota 9015 has a reputation as being a "cheap alternative" to Swiss ETA, which I think is undeserved. The 2824 is ancient, thicker, and it may or may not have problems with regular handwinding. Anecdotally, too much of that can break it. It's bi-directional, the 9015 is unidirectional. It's Swiss, the 9015 is Japanese. It needs regular service, the 9015 you can let run for 10, 15, maybe even 20 years, and then just replace it with a new one.

On the wrist, the 2824 and 9015 look exactly the same. Same 4Hz, same spin back to move the hands forwards (opposite of Seiko) similar date change. You don't need to wait 2 hours for that like a 7S26. Unless you really, really need your watch to say "Swiss made" on the dial, IMO the 9015 is superior. You can handwind it all day long, and you just don't have to worry about it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

ewhulbert said:


> Is it just me or does that look a lot like the NTH Carolina?
> 
> Looking at that pic I am thinking, "I know that watch!"
> 
> ...


Yes, @jelliottz did it first.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Pugzilla said:


> Hi, I'm considering getting a NTH sub, possibly the Barracuda. Looking for some opinions from long term wearers.
> 
> I was wondering how the scratch resistance of a DLC coated steel bezel compares to a ceramic bezel?
> 
> ...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Blue Odin on a president bracelet.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

illumidata said:


> We got baited by a sock puppet, check the post count.
> 
> Watch Addict In Recovery


Wellll, I once had a single digit post count, and I bet you did, too. I got rid of mine by posting, and I'm sure there were some dum questions.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I once asked here if NTH sold parts, like a 12hr bezel insert...

The answer is yes, I could buy a 12hr/countdown bezel for $650, and it came with a complete NTH Amphion Commando watch assembly already attached:


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

illumidata said:


> We got baited by a sock puppet, check the post count.
> 
> Watch Addict In Recovery


A bit rude and presumptuous.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> Blue Odin on a president bracelet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That really looks good!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Pugzilla said:


> Hi, I'm considering getting a NTH sub, possibly the Barracuda. Looking for some opinions from long term wearers.
> 
> I was wondering how the scratch resistance of a DLC coated steel bezel compares to a ceramic bezel?
> 
> ...


I have no beef with the question, n/w/s search function answers it.

Some people prefer ceramic, some dont. I have both, never broken or scratched any of either. Both are better than aluminum, until you need to replace one if ever you do. To me, it's aesthetics.

ETA 2824/36 is overrated or maybe it's the 9015 that's underrated. I love the miyota. Easier to get parts to fix eta, which is good because they're twice as expensive to repair than to buy a new 9015. ETAs also are more finicky; keyless much less robust than the 9015. And lo-beat vs hi-beat. And, thin.

"Noisy rotor" is a thing to complain about when you have nothing else to complain about.

So, unless you can find a 2892, 9015 all day every day.

Beyond that, most watch guys know surprisingly little about what they're talking about and spending on. "Swiss" is not all it's cracked up to be.

Here's a watch 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dt75 (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Delete


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

I've had a probably a dozen miyota 9015 powered watches and they have never struck me as loud. In watches it's tough to claim what is better or best. I think there is enough similarities in the two movements to say they are just about equal(https://aquacywatch.com/blogs/news/caliber-comparisons-eta-2824-2-vs-miyota-9015). Personally in the watches i lean towards(microbrand) I would generally prefer miyota and hope that it keeps prices down. I think the industry would lean towards the "swiss made" as would the average consumer. Can't go wrong with either we can just hope the use of the miyota saves us some coin. Under my watch I have had amazing success with the accuracy of the 9015. ETA has more cache, miyota does the same and is cheaper. As long as i benefit in cost savings I am all for the miyota. Only things I've noitced is that genereally my ETA powered watches seem to have much smoother crown action and the gritty feel is more common with miyota.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> ...
> 
> ETA 2824/36 is overrated or maybe it's the 9015 that's underrated. I love the miyota.
> 
> ...So, unless you can find a 2892, 9015 all day every day...


This is me exactly. The smoothest winders I have are 2892/3 movements.

I like my 9015s a lot, but they are all a bit noisy. I have learned to live with it, so it's possible.

Doc Savage


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> Blue Odin on a president bracelet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice. Where did you find a bracelet that fit the lugs so well?

I think it would be cool to find a bracelet that split the difference between that one and the original bracelet in terms of link voluptuousness.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Bezel color, lume tone, crystal reflections... Finally figured out what this photo reminded me of.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Just 'cause I like this one....


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Omegafanboy said:


> Blue Odin on a president bracelet.





3WR said:


> Nice. Where did you find a bracelet that fit the lugs so well?


+1 -- Source and model for that bracelet...?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Happy #bluewatchmonday |>


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

what type of lume is on the Tikuna?


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

The days are definitely getting shorter.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

JLS36 said:


> what type of lume is on the Tikuna?


Bright...very bright. :-!


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> +1 -- Source and model for that bracelet...?


￡12.27 46％ Off | CARLYWET 20mm Silver Hollow Curved End Screw Links Stainless Steel Replacement Wrist Watch Band Bracelet For President
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/NehK1mLW

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Horoticus said:


> Bright...very bright. :-!
> 
> View attachment 14458919


that looks good, looks like bgw9? the renders on nth and watch gauge look green however.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

JLS36 said:


> that looks good, looks like bgw9? the renders on nth and watch gauge look green however.


Believe it's Superluminova and to my eye it is green in person.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Horoticus said:


> Believe it's Superluminova and to my eye it is green in person.


sweet that picture lume looks great but looked blue. must be my display settings.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

JLS36 said:


> sweet that picture lume looks great but looked blue. must be my display settings.


I think it's more about the way it photographs. I got the Amphion Commando, lume glows green to my eye, but most of the time I try to capture it, photo comes out looking blue.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

My new NTH I got in... sadly no lume to speak of... today









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> what type of lume is on the Tikuna?


It's luminova.

I'd usually say "Superluminova", but I don't want anyone accusing me of over-hyping the same sort of luminova everyone else uses.

The color is what Tritec calls "natural". It glows green.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Testing its depth rating?


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> Testing its depth rating?


Careful. I read on the internet that having a watch close to rocks reduces the water resistance rating down to about .00001 feet. You are likely going to need a full overhaul with gaskets, etc.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

mplsabdullah said:


> Careful. I read on the internet that having a watch close to rocks reduces the water resistance rating down to about .00001 feet. You are likely going to need a full overhaul with gaskets, etc.


Rather than static or dynamic force, this is known as proximal hydro-geologic force, and is perhaps most important of all.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> It's luminova.
> 
> I'd usually say "Superluminova", but I don't want anyone accusing me of over-hyping the same sort of luminova everyone else uses.
> 
> ...


cool thanks


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> It's luminova.
> 
> I'd usually say "Superluminova", but I don't want anyone accusing me of over-hyping the same sort of luminova everyone else uses.
> 
> ...


cool thanks


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Chris -

The bezel action on my NTH Odin is very smooth. Almost silky. Same with the crown. Not sure how it made it past QC. Anything I can do to make it more gritty and masculine?

View attachment DSC_7091.jpg


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Chris -
> 
> The bezel action on my NTH Odin is very smooth. Almost silky. Same with the crown. Not sure how it made it past QC. Anything I can do to make it more gritty and masculine?
> 
> View attachment 14459513


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Chris -
> 
> The bezel action on my NTH Odin is very smooth. Almost silky. Same with the crown. Not sure how it made it past QC. Anything I can do to make it more gritty and masculine?
> 
> View attachment 14459513


You're ex-mil. Figure it out.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> You're ex-mil. Figure it out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Chris -
> 
> The bezel action on my NTH Odin is very smooth. Almost silky. Same with the crown. Not sure how it made it past QC. Anything I can do to make it more gritty and masculine?
> 
> View attachment 14459513


Work some fine sand in there, that would do it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkND said:


> Work some fine sand in there, that would do it.


What about coarse?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

uvalaw2005 said:


> Chris -
> 
> The bezel action on my NTH Odin is very smooth. Almost silky. Same with the crown. Not sure how it made it past QC. Anything I can do to make it more gritty and masculine?
> 
> View attachment 14459513


I don't understand why you want it gritty?


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

JLS36 said:


> I don't understand why you want it gritty?


Gritty = more masculine









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)




----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

Gritty










Manliness


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> I don't understand why you want it gritty?


No. You don't understand Gabriel's sense of humor which is dry with a side of arid.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

hwa said:


> No. You don't understand Gabriel's sense of humor which is dry with a side of arid.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was also trying to use sarcasm, which I must admit doesn't work well on the forums via text only.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

Winding waxed floss around your crown stem/threads = finer movement.

Winding un-waxed floss around you crown stem/threads = grittier moment. 

That's my guess. Seems like freaking dental floss is the answer to 99% of the issues people find.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

CMFord said:


> Winding waxed floss around your crown stem/threads = finer movement.
> 
> Winding un-waxed floss around you crown stem/threads = grittier moment.
> 
> That's my guess. Seems like freaking dental floss is the answer to 99% of the issues people find.


I must disagree...









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Odin in the office. I might as well be working in Dunder-Mifflin.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Tanjecterly said:


> Odin in the office. I might as well be working in Dunder-Mifflin.


Love this forum! Keeps my internet search skills up to snuff. I thought who/what the hell Dunder-Mifflin is? Person of advanced age here. Seinfeld did it for me.

Odin in the office. Looks good.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

RmacMD said:


> Love this forum! Keeps my internet search skills up to snuff. I thought who/what the hell Dunder-Mifflin is? Person of advanced age here. Seinfeld did it for me. Odin in the office. Looks good.


Or he could be working for Sanalac...on the Pensky file. |>


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Change the angle just a bit and you can really play with the nuances in color on the Holland.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Twehttam said:


> Change the angle just a bit and you can really play with the nuances in color on the Holland.
> 
> View attachment 14461179
> 
> ...


Erm, playing with it will change the angle, or should.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I do love to play with it, hwa.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Omegafanboy said:


> ￡12.27 46％ Off | CARLYWET 20mm Silver Hollow Curved End Screw Links Stainless Steel Replacement Wrist Watch Band Bracelet For President
> https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/NehK1mLW
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


ugh... Am I going to do this a third time and get yet another bracelet that doesn't fit MY nth? :think:

Nevermind - I don't do hollow end links


----------



## Dalen (Dec 12, 2016)

Twehttam said:


> I do love to play with it, hwa.


That's what she said....


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Dalen said:


> That's what she said....


I'm pretty sure that's what HE said.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

92gli said:


> ugh... Am I going to do this a third time and get yet another bracelet that doesn't fit MY nth? :think:
> 
> Nevermind - I don't do hollow end links


Whatever it is, if it fits one Sub, it will fit all of them.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)




----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Put on the skipjack to run a few early errands. This is how overcast it is in my area right now -







This is the torch I had when I came in and went straight to the powder room -







Crazy


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Awe inspiring, innit?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

...









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

how to size a NTH bracelet are they pin and collar?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JLS36 said:


> how to size a NTH bracelet are they pin and collar?


Nope just normal screws.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> how to size a NTH bracelet are they pin and collar?


Screws and screwdrivers.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

And they are tiny screws. 1.2mm screwdriver needed. I bought the Wiha one from amazon. Wiha 96012 Slotted Screwdriver...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> And they are tiny screws. 12mm* screwdriver needed. I bought the Wiha one from amazon. Wiha 96012 Slotted Screwdriver...


*1 point 2 mm.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> And they are tiny screws. 12mm screwdriver needed. I bought the Wiha one from amazon. Wiha 96012 Slotted Screwdriver...


#mensa

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> *1 point 2 mm.


Thanks, fixed.



hwa said:


> #mensa


#decimalpointcritic


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> Thanks, fixed.
> 
> #decimalpointcritic


#deweythanksyou

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

My Nacken Vintage Blue got a compliment from a normal at work. That doesn't happen every day so that was cool.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Speaking of work, does anyone else amuse themselves during meetings by surveying the watches around the table? Not in a snobby way - just to see if you can spot other watch nerds. My two favorite sightings were both worn by guys with impressive sounding titles and I assume plenty of money to blow on watches if they wanted to. One had a 36mm Explorer. Dude was cool so I figured his tasteful choice wasn't by accident. 

I was amazed by the other. An SKX007 on a nato strap. Bona fide enthusiast making a bold choice for the setting. Respect.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Still speaking of work and meetings, I recall one with a Japanese company. As everyone settled in for it to start, they took off their watches and propped them on the table in front of them. I assumed that was a discreet way to keep tabs on time without making it obvious they are doing so. I mean, what else could it have been? No way was it for show and tell. 

Meanwhile, the rest of us barbarians were sitting there with laptops open, checking phone notifications, etc.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

^^Absolutely, but I rarely see anything interesting. Most those at my work, if they wear a watch at all, are wearing a smart watch of some kind. One co-worker has a 36mm Datejust, and I see a few G-shocks, but not much else is going on.

Boo.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Older Hemingway type guy with a hat on during dinner at a local hole in the wall Thai restaurant. My wife and daughter were eating and the older couple sits down. I noticed his attire which was light hemp like pants and maroon button up shirt not tucked in with a styling black hat. His lady friend had kinda fancy attire as well, but the older guy had the style points. While devouring my red Thai curry chicken I noticed the lady picking up her wine glass and saw a fancy jeweled Rolex. I immediately looked at the dude and he had a new shiny vintage Rolex on. So cool. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

I don't see much at work except for one occasion someone wearing a vintage 5513...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Meetings?

Everyone in my office just wears NTH. Occasionally, you might spot a Lew & Huey, or a couple Seiko divers, or a Citizen Nighthawk.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I work in a small office. My boss wears a gold plated seiko solar tank watch on the original leather strap. He's got his grandfather's old pocket watch in a display case. And while he regularly asks me about whatever watch I'm wearing at the time, with genuine interest, he so far has resisted getting any deeper into it. I bet he splurges on a decent watch when he retires and/or sells the company. My bet is it will be a Rolex...

No one else in the office even wears a watch, except some of the younger kids with smartwatches. One guy is into fountain pens, obviously an anachronistic freak...


----------



## stamonkey (Jan 1, 2015)

I was at a conference, and a younger guy about my age came up and said he liked my Sinn. I've had people compliment my watches before or ask me questions, but never had somebody come up and identify my make and model watch before. He was wearing a Rolex Explorer II and we ended up having a long conversation about watches.

At my office, it's pretty much gshocks and apple watches though. I did help one of my co-workers buy a nice Hamilton Khaki that he wears every day.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

BB58 vs BB57!!!

;-)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

jerseydan31 said:


>


Tudor is sloe


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

jerseydan31 said:


> BB58 vs BB57!!!
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A nice comparison picture. Does the NTH BVB have the nicer gilt as it looks like in the picture?


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

MarkND said:


> A nice comparison picture. Does the NTH BVB have the nicer gilt as it looks like in the picture?


Mark,

the markers on the Tudor are applied. They give the dial a different 'dimension' compared to the NTH.

I love the dial on the NTH. The reverse markers give it a nice 3D effect. It's a matter of taste. Both watches have their pros and cons. Many swear that the Tudor BB58 is close to being the perfect watch out there. Wish it has a date and cyclops (I'm that kind of guy...hence buying a Barracuda Date).

The dials are very similar in many ways.

The gold texture on the Tudor is very refined if looking through a magnifier.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Double post...


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

jerseydan31 said:


> BB58 vs BB57!!!
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bb58 looks tiny

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

jerseydan31 said:


> BB58 vs BB57!!!
> 
> ;-)


Just for the fun of it, can you take/post a shot of them from the side? Would love to see a comparison of midcase shape/size...


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

jerseydan31 said:


> Mark,
> 
> the markers on the Tudor are applied. They give the dial a different 'dimension' compared to the NTH.
> 
> ...


Hi Dan,

They looked applied, but given its a Tudor I figured they would be well done.

Thanks for the comparison pictures!

Mark


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Just for the fun of it, can you take/post a shot of them from the side? Would love to see a comparison of midcase shape/size...







































....and the hot mess shot!!:










....just to show you how much those links fold!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

jerseydan31 said:


>


Mounted 

Doc Savage


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I've had two recent watch geek connections (I've maybe had 10-15 unsolicited ones over the last few years. Most people in my life know I collect or at least appreciate watches, so those conversations don't count.)

A younger friend of mine recently ousted himself as wanting to collect despite a meager income. He had a citizen chrono or something on, and he wanted an Alpinist. To allow him a reasonably well rounded collection at about the cost of an Alpinist, I recommended a G-Shock M5610BC-1JF, perhaps with a combo bracelet; an Amphibia (or if he wants to spend more an SKX or Ray); an SNK; a Bambino; some Barton straps; and a Bergeron 6767-F tool. He seemed appreciative.

A student came up to me after a lecture the other day and said "I noticed you're a watch guy, I could tell by the watches you've had on." (I think he spotted me wearing a Steinhart Batman GMT one day, and maybe a Seaforth the other day.) I told him that the stuff I teach is pretty cool, but watches are what I REALLY think are cool. He's my new favorite student.

A third "someone noticed my watch" story, this one way weirder. I was in the Amsterdam airport going through security while wearing an Amphion Vintage. If I remember right, a security agent at the scanner saw me putting my watch in my bag for when I went through, said I didn't need to (I guess the Dutch are lax with metal?), and then, confusingly, asked why I'd worry about protecting my watch, and why I don't wear a real watch like a Rolex. It seemed he didn't know anything about watches (in hindsight it was probably the nato strap that caught his attention and "cheapened" the look to an untrained eye), which made the slight all the more confusing (i.e., ironic given that I was wearing a milsub homage).

I remember feeling annoyed/offended, so I dismissively laughed, said something to the effect of "I actually collect watches-you'd be surprised at what I've plunked down on them; sounds like you don't know much about them," and proceeded on. He seemed to realize at that point that he'd been a douche. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, he was probably just trying to josh someone in a short security line to liven up a boring job, without any real malice, but he just misfired 

#the Dutch don't know what they don't understand










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Speaking of work, does anyone else amuse themselves during meetings by surveying the watches around the table? Not in a snobby way - just to see if you can spot other watch nerds. My two favorite sightings were both worn by guys with impressive sounding titles and I assume plenty of money to blow on watches if they wanted to. One had a 36mm Explorer. Dude was cool so I figured his tasteful choice wasn't by accident.
> 
> I was amazed by the other. An SKX007 on a nato strap. Bona fide enthusiast making a bold choice for the setting. Respect.


Hard to say on the Explorer. I dig the SKX though, THAT is a watch guy for sure.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> ...A third "someone noticed my watch" story, this one way weirder. I was in the Amsterdam airport going through security while wearing an Amphion Vintage. If I remember right, a security agent at the scanner saw me putting my watch in my bag for when I went through, said I didn't need to (I guess the Dutch are lax with metal?), and then, confusingly, asked why I'd worry about protecting my watch, and why I don't wear a real watch like a Rolex. It seemed he didn't know anything about watches (in hindsight it was probably the nato strap that caught his attention and "cheapened" the look to an untrained eye), which made the slight all the more confusing (i.e., ironic given that I was wearing a milsub homage).
> 
> I remember feeling annoyed/offended, so I dismissively laughed, said something to the effect of "I actually collect watches-you'd be surprised at what I've plunked down on them; sounds like you don't know much about them," and proceeded on. He seemed to realize at that point that he'd been a douche. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, he was probably just trying to josh someone in a short security line to liven up a boring job, without any real malice, but he just misfired
> 
> #the Dutch don't know what they don't understand


Next time, just call him a Zwaardvis, and move the f**k on.

That will confuse the $hlt out of him, or, at worst, get him correcting your pronunciation.

#WinningWithTheDutch


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Decided to check out the watch shop in downtown Portland today. I guess I'm just not a Rolex guy. They aren't a new A/D, but they have a pretty decent selection of recent 5-digit subs, Explorer/IIs, and GMT-Masters. Really the only one that caught my eye was the Coke bezel GMT-Master (non-ceramic). Cool watch, but there's no way on earth I'd ever spend that kind of cash on one. They are an Omega A/D so they have all the new SMPs with the laser cut dials. They don't look any better in person than they do in pictures, and they're too big. The best looker in the place was the 40mm Oris Aquis Clean Ocean. Kills me that they don't really work on straps, or I'd have to have one.

Interestingly, the owner mistook my SDGC009 for a Cartier.


----------



## sobwanhoser (Feb 8, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Next time, just call him a Zwaardvis, and move the f**k on.
> 
> That will confuse the $hlt out of him, or, at worst, get him correcting your pronunciation.
> 
> #WinningWithTheDutch


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> Decided to check out the watch shop in downtown Portland today. I guess I'm just not a Rolex guy. They aren't a new A/D, but they have a pretty decent selection of recent 5-digit subs, Explorer/IIs, and GMT-Masters. Really the only one that caught my eye was the Coke bezel GMT-Master (non-ceramic). Cool watch, but there's no way on earth I'd ever spend that kind of cash on one. They are an Omega A/D so they have all the new SMPs with the laser cut dials. They don't look any better in person than they do in pictures, and they're too big. The best looker in the place was the 40mm Oris Aquis Clean Ocean. Kills me that they don't really work on straps, or I'd have to have one.
> 
> Interestingly, the owner mistook my SDGC009 for a Cartier.
> 
> View attachment 14467159


I've been in that store before and had a very enjoyable experience. They were an ad for several nice brands (Longines, Oris, etc) and also had a pretty good assortment of pre owned pieces as well.

Sales staff was also very nice and attentive. I was wearing a seiko sbdc051 and didn't feel out of place.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

ryan850 said:


> I've been in that store before and had a very enjoyable experience. They were an ad for several nice brands (Longines, Oris, etc) and also had a pretty good assortment of pre owned pieces as well.
> 
> Sales staff was also very nice and attentive. I was wearing a seiko sbdc051 and didn't feel out of place.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Yeah I've been in several times, mainly for bracelet fitments when I still wore those, and they were always nice, and never treated me any different than anyone else even if I was asking them to size a $600 retail Citizen Eco-Drive, and kept asking them to take a link out, and then put it back in, and then take it out again, for the grand total of $10 or whatever the fitment cost was.

I'm very often surprised just how boring a lot of the $1500+ Swiss watches are when I actually see them in the flesh. The Legend Diver, the black dial B&R V2-92, most of the Omegas, etc are nowhere near as interesting as a watch like Doc's Tikuna. I could maybe see replacing my Aevig with that Oris if it had regular lugs, but other than that, eh.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Phannum Friday... seemed fitting to wear it on Friday the 13th









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

OK,


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Sporting the Oberon on Friday!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

3WR said:


> Speaking of work, does anyone else amuse themselves during meetings by surveying the watches around the table? Not in a snobby way - just to see if you can spot other watch nerds. My two favorite sightings were both worn by guys with impressive sounding titles and I assume plenty of money to blow on watches if they wanted to. One had a 36mm Explorer. Dude was cool so I figured his tasteful choice wasn't by accident.
> 
> I was amazed by the other. An SKX007 on a nato strap. Bona fide enthusiast making a bold choice for the setting. Respect.


I just met an executive who was in from abroad. His IWC Aquatimer is a really nice watch. Had not seen one in person before and it made me instantly think he had good taste.

Also worked for a CEO whose daily driver was a Pepsi bezel Seiko diver. I thought that was cool that he was so practical.

Odd how I can see a luxury watch and think it's tasteful rather than extravagant, and a tool watch and think it's practical rather than cheap. I guess I wanted to see the best in both of them.

I suppose I could see a 50yr old executive wearing an MVMT and think "wow, he doesn't give a f*$k!"

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Oddly I'd be more impressed by someone who I met who had an NTH Sub over a Rolex Sub. Yes, the Rolex is far more expensive but the NTH shows they actually took the time to learn about a microbrand and probably bought it more out of knowledge than just for status.


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

SteamJ said:


> Oddly I'd be more impressed by someone who I met who had an NTH Sub over a Rolex Sub. Yes, the Rolex is far more expensive but the NTH shows they actually took the time to learn about a microbrand and probably bought it more out of knowledge than just for status.


I've met a few NTH owners...

The less said the better.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

ewhulbert said:


> I just met an executive who was in from abroad. His IWC Aquatimer is a really nice watch. Had not seen one in person before and it made me instantly think he had good taste.
> 
> Also worked for a CEO whose daily driver was a Pepsi bezel Seiko diver. I thought that was cool that he was so practical.
> 
> ...


I think an Aquatimer is pretty tasteful. It's expensive, but I think it's still well into the tool watch realm, like a Pelagos. It definitely doesn't shout about how much it costs. Something like a 44mm+ Panerai or a two-tone Sea-Dweller on the other hand would be a very different story.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Bradjhomes said:


> SteamJ said:
> 
> 
> > Oddly I'd be more impressed by someone who I met who had an NTH Sub over a Rolex Sub. Yes, the Rolex is far more expensive but the NTH shows they actually took the time to learn about a microbrand and probably bought it more out of knowledge than just for status.
> ...


Hey, remember I still have your watch!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ewhulbert said:


> I just met an executive who was in from abroad. His IWC Aquatimer is a really nice watch. Had not seen one in person before and it made me instantly think he had good taste.
> 
> Also worked for a CEO whose daily driver was a Pepsi bezel Seiko diver. I thought that was cool that he was so practical.
> 
> ...


I think regardless of price, there are certain pieces we respect and certain ones we don't, for reasons we all more or less understand intuitively.

I used to work with a guy who always wore a huge G-Shock in board-room meetings. It never looked right next to his suit sleeve, and while I've got nothing against G-Shocks, seeing him wear one while we were trying to close the CFO always stuck in my craw a little. Not because they're not "nice" or "expensive", but because it looked like the guy didn't know how to dress.

It's like wearing a belt with suspenders - that's clown-$hlt, man.

There's just something about certain watches in certain situations, that can instantly raise or lower the wearer's stock. I've told this story before, but back when my son was in little league, I spotted one of the other dads wearing a Panerai, and figured he was just another overly-rich a-hole money-manager from this suburb where they seem to grow on trees. The next time I saw him, he was wearing a $30 Timex Weekender, and his stock went through the roof.

$30 Timex? Nothing that special, in most contexts, but there, it was like spotting a guy's Hydra lapel pin. If he'd been wearing a Daniel Wellington, I would have d**k-punched him, but as it was...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bradjhomes said:


> I've met a few NTH owners...
> 
> The less said the better.


Pfffffft!

Says the peanut not wearing knickers...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

ewhulbert said:


> I just met an executive who was in from abroad. His IWC Aquatimer is a really nice watch. Had not seen one in person before and it made me instantly think he had good taste.
> 
> Also worked for a CEO whose daily driver was a Pepsi bezel Seiko diver. I thought that was cool that he was so practical.
> 
> ...


I know its me, but I can't get past the first sentence. "I just met an executive who was in from a broad."


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I love this thread.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

SteamJ said:


> Oddly I'd be more impressed by someone who I met who had an NTH Sub over a Rolex Sub. Yes, the Rolex is far more expensive but the NTH shows they actually took the time to learn about a microbrand and probably bought it more out of knowledge than just for status.


It reminds me of the "advice from Goldman Sachs" column, which opined on watch style: "buying a Rolex Submariner means you have money, but nothing to say." I'm not entirely endorsing that statement, but I do know many, many Sub owners for whom it is true.

Doc Savage


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> It reminds me of the "advice from Goldman Sachs" column, which opined on watch style: "buying a Rolex Submariner means you have money, but nothing to say." I'm not entirely endorsing that statement, but I do know many, many Sub owners for whom it is true.
> 
> Doc Savage


This.

I about said as much to "Dave", the guy in the thread I started last night. I cringed (inside) when he mentioned Tag and Breitling as brands in the context of his desire to buy some "statement" pieces (notwithstanding my sincere love for numerous models from both).

I frequently recall the scene in "Gone in 60 Seconds", with Nic Cage making the point any a$$hole with $500k can walk in and buy a Ferrari, but it's a connoisseur driving around in some GTB from the '60's, or whatever.

My knee-jerk reaction when I see most guys wearing the standard-issue rich-guy watch is to assume he's a basic suburban rich guy, who treated or treats watch buying like he's completing a checklist - "graduate from the ivy leagues, marry Becky, squeeze a kid into her, buy a BMW, and a Breitling, make partner, develop a coke habit, set my assistant/mistress up in a tasteful love-nest, pass the stern belittlement my father gave me onto my children, have a coronary, clean up my act, find *****, contribute heavily to my alma mater in the two years prior to my dip$hlt son needing to get in there, fall off the wagon, ruin a junior associate's career by blaming him for my own mistake, then, just when I'm reaching the zenith of my personal power and peak evil, run for public office."


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

^Bahahahahaa!

Seriously, one of the heavy equipment mechanics that works in our shop has a Breitling...

and a jazzmaster...


I always wondered about the whole status trophy bull****, though I do swim in swampier waters.. G-shock territory.. Not a bad pond, people that are dirty at the end of shift, salt.

Although, bet I’d buy a dateless submariner if I had the means. Or, a motorcycle and a NTH el grande’ sub...

Or another SKX to demolish..


Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Even if I had the means, I wouldn't buy a Rolex. It seems the 'obvious choice' if you can spend thousands & thousands for a watch. There are many watches I feel that are more interesting, at least to me. Very interesting article about Rolex here:
https://www.ablogtowatch.com/todays...at-rolex-is-selling/?ct=t(RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Even if I had the means, I wouldn't buy a Rolex. It seems the 'obvious choice' if you can spend thousands & thousands for a watch. There are many watches I feel that are more interesting, at least to me. Very interesting article about Rolex here:
> https://www.ablogtowatch.com/todays...at-rolex-is-selling/?ct=t(RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN)


I would only differ SLIGHTLY with you, on the first point.

As a brand, Rolex is indeed the default choice for anyone who wants "THE" luxury brand watch. But, within the brand's product range, there are those models which seem to attract the less enlightened, and those which are more appealing to those of us in the know. I had hoped to steer Dave away from the former, towards the latter.

Tell me you wouldn't like a Milguass. Really? None of them? You couldn't live with a steel SubC, or a Polar Explorer? C'mon...those are nice pieces, and no one who knows watches will necessarily assume you just went into the AD and bought the first Rollie they showed you.

As for the ABTW article...I'm too tired to have read it all, but if the gist of it was summarized well enough by the second paragraph, then I got the gist.

Ariel's not dumb, by any means. And he frequently makes some compelling arguments. I may be too tired to even think about whether or not there's a counter-argument to be made, or if he's just right, case closed.

I can certainly see his point, that Rolex is the most well-known luxury watch brand in the world, and responsible for a lot of luxury watch demand, generally, not just demand for Rolex watches, specifically. To the extent Rolex contributes to people's desire to portray, if not actually maintain, a luxury lifestyle, yeah, no doubt other brands benefit in some way. A rising tide lifts all ships, as they say. I certainly feel that my business is only viable because there was already demand for mid-range watches, a demand which I didn't create, I only sought to exploit. With no luxury tier, there is no mid-range, maybe.

I skimmed enough beyond the second paragraph to see him address the hypothetical scenario - if Rolex stopped, or didn't exist, would any one or a group of other brands fill the void, or would all the other luxury brands simply die out from lack of Rolex's sun continuing to rise each day to give them warmth? Without the horse, would there still be horse-flies?

His argument seems to be that Rolex is just that big, spending that much, and just so good at what they do, that it could never be replaced. He may be right. It's impossible to know, really. Perhaps the very smart people who ran or run Rolex would have ran or run some other brand if Rolex didn't become "ROLEX", and that other brand would have become "TAG", or whatever.

It's hard to accept that no Nick Hayek, no Jean-Claude Biver, no combination of smart, perceptive people could have been enough to propel the Swiss luxury watch industry, only Rolex and its people could do it.

Nature abhors a vacuum. If Rolex never existed or suddenly ceased to exist, I think we'd be in the same situation, just talking about some other brand instead. I believe in the perpetual rise of smart people who are tired of watching dumb people making a cluster-f**k of things. In any sample group, there will be outliers from the mean.

In that context, Ariel may be both absolutely correct, but also just pointing out and explaining what is really just the statistically-inevitable-and-ultimately-obvious.

And for that, we thank him.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

RmacMD said:


> Even if I had the means, I wouldn't buy a Rolex. It seems the 'obvious choice' if you can spend thousands & thousands for a watch. There are many watches I feel that are more interesting, at least to me. Very interesting article about Rolex here:
> https://www.ablogtowatch.com/todays...at-rolex-is-selling/?ct=t(RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN)


Sometimes a nice watch is just a nice watch.

I find a slug eating a mushroom interesting.










Squeezed from my iPhone like the final blob of toothpaste via Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> It reminds me of the "advice from Goldman Sachs" column, which opined on watch style: "buying a Rolex Submariner means you have money, but nothing to say." I'm not entirely endorsing that statement, but I do know many, many Sub owners for whom it is true.
> 
> Doc Savage












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I don't hate the 5-digits, they just wouldn't be my 1st, or frankly 5th choice for a watch in that price range. The two-tone blue 16613 is a pretty watch, and I could maybe see wearing one on brown leather. The 6-digit ceramics I actively dislike though, for the same reason I don't like the new SMPs. They took a beautifully proportioned watch, and ruined it by pumping it full of steroids. The SMP at least has the excuse of needing to fit the current 8 series co-axial movement, whereas Rolex just made the Submariner chunkier because they wanted to.

I'm also not much of a Milgauss fan. I wouldn't kick a 39mm Oyster Perpetual out of bed for sure, which is a very understated, under the radar watch, but there's also no "gotta have it" for me at all. The watches I actually buy, I watch dozens of YouTube videos about, and just stare at pictures of them for an unhealthy amount of time. That still doesn't end up working out more often than it does, but there's no Rolex that's ever had that effect on me......other than maybe the nipple dial root beer GMT-Master. If that was a $5,000 watch, I might ponder selling off most of my collection and just wearing that and maybe an SKX mod. At $10,000+ though, nope. I like it, but not _that_ much.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I sold off a Datejust and my 2002 drilled lug submariner for this watch. Love it! Its a tool watch and no polished center links so it looks like i should rough and tumble with it and i do. But its also one of many in my watch collection and i wear it on a rotation so its treated like any other watch including my NTH/(L&H) pieces.

Watches are still fun and so i buy what i want and wear a different one every day, or two. Or three.










And this is only about half of the collection.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

The rolex I desire the most is a pretty mundane one - oyster perpetual 114300, 39mm black dial. Perfect size, thin, no date, lots of lume, just enough shiny bits. Of course that one is also somewhat difficult to get right now.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

SteamJ said:


> Oddly I'd be more impressed by someone who I met who had an NTH Sub over a Rolex Sub. *Yes, the Rolex is far more expensive but the NTH shows they actually took the time to learn about a microbrand and probably bought it more out of knowledge than just for status.*


wait what?



















Hotblack Desiato said:


> It reminds me of the "*advice from Goldman Sachs*" column, which opined on watch style: "buying a Rolex Submariner means you have money, but nothing to say." I'm not entirely endorsing that statement, but I do know many, many Sub owners for whom it is true.
> 
> Doc Savage


the same goldman that got a government bailout?

gentlemen - i know it's hard to resist the reverse virtue signaling, but we can try

oh, and one correction...i don't have money OR much to say :-d (keeping the thread lighthearted)


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

SteamJ said:


> Oddly I'd be more impressed by someone who I met who had an NTH Sub over a Rolex Sub. Yes, the Rolex is far more expensive but the NTH shows they actually took the time to learn about a microbrand and probably bought it more out of knowledge than just for status.


I totally get this. Obviously there are plenty of serious watch guys with Submariners (TGV has one, etc) but at the same time, it is "THE" luxury dive watch in the same way that the Speedmaster is "THE" luxury chronograph, and so you get plenty of people who wear them that just have them as status pieces.

NTH is a special case even compared to something like a Steinhart or Squale sub homage though, (and especially an unscrupulous company that starts with the letter G) because NTH subs don't look _that_ much like a Rolex, so that tends to rule out the kind of people that want to look like they are wearing a $10K watch on their wrist without risking a fake watch. You buy an NTH because you want an NTH. Even some of the models that are closer to the original designs like the Odin and Nacken, you can still find homages that are much more like an old SM300 or Tudor snowflake if you really want to, so then it becomes more about the details that those other watches don't have, like the super thin case.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Rhorya said:


> And this is only about half of the collection.


That is quite the collection. What do you do with them all? I guess I just don't have that mindset, but I'd have a tough time justifying more than one watch per day of the week. I'm currently sitting at four, with one additional that's for sale. My second SKX mod project will make five, and then another that I'm likely going to pull the trigger on today will be six, and I think that'll do for the indefinite future.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Trigger pulled. This is the SSW I've been wanting from Zodiac since I sold my ZO9204. Black sun ray dial, black glass bezel, no date, classic script with very minimal text, not even a depth rating. Knock out.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

It is interesting how so many of us think the size of our collection is roughly the “right” size. I have 18 at the moment and think 20 is a good size. When I get to 20 I may start thinking 25 is a good size. (I tend to only get watches I know I will like, and then find it hard to part with them.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Dave, that's the Zodiac I'd go for as well. It's a real stunner.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Toonces said:


> Dave, that's the Zodiac I'd go for as well. It's a real stunner.


Yup. I actually had no idea it even existed until a few days ago when P&C posted that, since in the US it's a Hodinkee exclusive, at least for the time being, and it wasn't a big release for them like the Aerospace GMT, which was everywhere. I've been gawking at it ever since though, and it completely erased any desire I had to pick up a SARX057 or Omega SMPc which were the other two black dial watches that I was eyeing to full that space in the collection.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> I totally get this. Obviously there are plenty of serious watch guys with Submariners (TGV has one, etc) but at the same time, it is "THE" luxury dive watch in the same way that the Speedmaster is "THE" luxury chronograph, and so you get plenty of people who wear them that just have them as status pieces.
> 
> NTH is a special case even compared to something like a Steinhart or Squale sub homage though, (and especially an unscrupulous company that starts with the letter G) because NTH subs don't look _that_ much like a Rolex, so that tends to rule out the kind of people that want to look like they are wearing a $10K watch on their wrist without risking a fake watch. You buy an NTH because you want an NTH. Even some of the models that are closer to the original designs like the Odin and Nacken, you can still find homages that are much more like an old SM300 or Tudor snowflake if you really want to, so then it becomes more about the details that those other watches don't have, like the super thin case.


I don't think the speedmaster is as much of a status symbol as the submariner. I think having the speedmaster means you know something about watches. (Full disclosure, I have a speedy)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> It is interesting how so many of us think the size of our collection is roughly the "right" size. I have 18 at the moment and think 20 is a good size. When I get to 20 I may start thinking 25 is a good size. (I tend to only get watches I know I will like, and then find it hard to part with them.)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have 18-20 (I'm honestly not even sure), and it's way too many, for me, for certain, if I feel self-imposed pressure to actually wear them all with any sort of frequency (which I tend to feel). Because of general laziness / lack of discipline, and not wearing a watch while I work / rarely leaving the house, most of my watches may only get worn once or twice a year.

It's also laziness that keeps me from doing anything about it. If selling used was easier / less time consuming, I'd have a smaller collection of pieces I'd be rotating more frequently, and flipping pieces as I replace them with newer models I like more.

I freely admit that some of the watches are just there because I like them enough to keep them despite rarely being worn. There are maybe 2-3 watches in my case that I could see letting go, and lately I just haven't felt a strong enough desire to add anything. Those I think about adding or letting go would just be trading places.

If you put a gun to my head and force me to say what my "right" size collection would be, depending on my mood and the watches, it could be 2, 3, 5, or 7, and 5-7 is probably pushing it. Knowing my habits and priorities - I like versatility, prefer quality vs quantity, and tend to think best when presented with limited options - I think a 2-3 piece collection is my ideal.

The recent exercise in trying to come up with a list of recos for some budding watch geeks led me to realize how unsuited I am to being a watch collector at all. I think I could live and be happy with just two pieces - a good diver as a daily beater, and a good GADA type piece for everything else. That would spare me the mental energy of figuring out what to wear whenever I go to put a watch on, and I think I'd feel more attachment to those two pieces than I do to anything I now own.

As soon as I get beyond that hypothetical 2-watch collection, and start adding diversity, the numbers and thoughts get nebulous, and lead me to indecisiveness.

Owning a watch company has created this bizarre situation where I've got a "collection", despite not having the personality type to be a collector of anything.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> I don't think the speedmaster is as much of a status symbol as the submariner. I think having the speedmaster means you know something about watches. (Full disclosure, I have a speedy)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's not. The Daytona is definitely MUCH more of a status symbol than the Speedy is, but the Speedy has worked its way I feel into general consciousness in a way that the Daytona hasn't. That's why I feel like it's THE chronograph.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> ......other than maybe the nipple dial root beer GMT-Master. ...


It is always fun to learn a new watch term. Bummer that I'm not a fan of its meaning in the watch world.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> I don't think the speedmaster is as much of a status symbol as the submariner. I think having the speedmaster means you know something about watches. (Full disclosure, I have a speedy)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Empirically, I think that's right.

Every year, Digital Luxury Group compiles internet usage data for luxury watch brands into their "World Watch Report". They don't publish the reports publicly (they charge the brands big bucks for their 'insights'), but they have occasionally made past years' reports public.

It's clear that DLG proposes that internet search data is a good proxy for market demand. I'd argue sales is the ultimate indicator, but that data would certainly help explain what's happening, and help to spot patterns and trends.

When I look at those reports, searching for my own insights, Rolex always emerges as the most searched-for brand among internet users, by a large margin. Omega occupies the number 2 spot, and Tag Heuer number 3. The rest of the industry is left sucking the wake of those three brands.

If Rolex is the most-searched for luxury brand, and the Submariner is Rolex's most popular / recognizable / iconic model, it supports the idea that the Sub is going to be more recognizable as a status symbol than the Omega Speedmaster.

Really, though, we shouldn't need empirical data to "prove" what would otherwise seem obvious by way of general observation. How many watch designs emulate the Sub? How many the Speedy? How often do people seeing a diver - any diver - ask "is that a Rolex?" How often do people seeing a chrono ask "is that an Omega?"

I once had a guy ask if my Seiko SKX007 was a Rolex. I've never heard anyone say someone asked if their...I dunno what the chrono equivalent of the SKX would be...was an Omega.

Ask a large random sampling of people if they've heard of Rolex. Follow up question, ask if they've heard of the Submariner. Or, show them a pic of one with the logo and text removed, and ask what brand they think it is.

Then do that for Omega, and the Speedmaster.

How much do you want to bet that a lot of people guess the Speedy is a Rolex, and few if any people guess the Sub is an Omega?

Show them the two watches, side by side, with logos and dial text removed. Ask which one they think costs more, or is more likely to be worn by wealthy people.

Just show them the logos, not even on a product, and don't tell them they're both watch brands. Ask them what they think the brands make, and ask them for adjectives they'd use to describe the products and/or people who buy them.

Just as a thought experiment, I think we all know what the data would show.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Does anyone insure their watches? If all of my watches were sold off to buy one high dollar piece, I think I would want to insure it. As it stands, I don't have any single piece that seems worth the hassle.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> It's not. The Daytona is definitely MUCH more of a status symbol than the Speedy is, but *the Speedy has worked its way I feel into general consciousness in a way that the Daytona hasn't.* That's why I feel like it's THE chronograph.


Disagree.

The Daytona featured prominently in a recent season of "Ray Donovan", and very soon after, Daytona production / sales volume / prices surged.

Ask any random sampling of people if they've heard of the Rolex Daytona, and what they know about it. Ask them if they've heard of the Omega Speedmaster, and what they know about it.

The general public is MUCH less aware of Omega as a brand compared to Rolex. The Speedmaster is much more likely to be purchased by a knowledgeable enthusiast, and much less recognizable to the general public.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> The recent exercise in trying to come up with a list of recos for some budding watch geeks led me to realize how unsuited I am to being a watch collector at all. I think I could live and be happy with just two pieces - a good diver as a daily beater, and a good GADA type piece for everything else. That would spare me the mental energy of figuring out what to wear whenever I go to put a watch on, and I think I'd feel more attachment to those two pieces than I do to anything I now own.
> 
> As soon as I get beyond that hypothetical 2-watch collection, and start adding diversity, the numbers and thoughts get nebulous, and lead me to indecisiveness.
> 
> Owning a watch company has created this bizarre situation where I've got a "collection", despite not having the personality type to be a collector of anything.


I think I would struggle with just two. I'm able to slice things up to 6, but beyond that, the use cases get too fuzzy, and I end up with duplicates playing the same role, which I don't want. One of my SKX mods will be all PVD/stealth black ceramic with the jade green monster dial. I probably won't wear it that much, but it will be a fun diversion every now and then. The other SKX is the beater, the one I don't really care what happens to because every single part is easily replaced if necessary. The Aevig is my "pool party" watch. The two Seiko cocktails are similar, but different enough to fill different roles. The SDGC009 with its baton hands is more of an every day watch, while the 017 with its dauphine hands is better suited to more elegant occasions, but even on black leather I feel like it sort of has a limit on how dressy it can get because the brown striped/sun ray/fume dial is a bit too showy for really formal stuff, which is where the Zodiac comes in. It'll also work every day without stepping on the toes of the 009 since they are so different, but on black leather I think it could handle even black tie stuff.

For the same amount of money invested I suppose I could have a single Aqua-Terra and maybe like a cheap Seiko 5 "diver," but that really doesn't appeal to me nearly as much. It's a nice watch, but it would be boring having the same watch on every day.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

docvail said:


> Empirically, I think that's right.
> 
> Every year, Digital Luxury Group compiles internet usage data for luxury watch brands into their "World Watch Report". They don't publish the reports publicly (they charge the brands big bucks for their 'insights'), but they have occasionally made past years' reports public.
> 
> ...


I feel validated, which is awesome!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Disagree.
> 
> The general public is MUCH less aware of Omega as a brand compared to Rolex. The Speedmaster is much more likely to be purchased by a knowledgeable enthusiast, and much less recognizable to the general public.


Brand wise, absolutely, agreed 100%. I feel like the Speedmaster is a special case though, because it's Omega's defining model, more than anything else they make by far. The "bond watch" doesn't even come close. The Daytona's mega success is FAR more recent, sort of displacing what a solid gold Day-Date used to be as arguably the ultimate Rolex status symbol, above the Sub, GMT-Master, Yachtmaster (itself largely obscure until recently), and the rest of their models.

Everyone knows what a Rolex Submariner is, just like everyone knows what a Mercedes S-class is. The Planet Ocean is more like an Audi A8 - for people that specifically don't want an S-class for whatever reason, and a car that most people likely have no idea what it is. The Daytona is still a Mercedes in this analogy, the big kahuna above BMW and Audi, but something much less recognizable (I think) than an S-class. Maybe a G-wagen. Super cool and flashy and desirable _now_, but 30 years ago, no one had any clue what a G-wagen was, even though it was around.


----------



## jcar79 (Aug 3, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> Blue Odin on a president bracelet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you share your wrist size?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Does anyone insure their watches? If all of my watches were sold off to buy one high dollar piece, I think I would want to insure it. As it stands, I don't have any single piece that seems worth the hassle.


Do you keep your collection together, all in one place? Is it worth more than your homeowners insurance deductible? I keep my collection in an easily transported travel case. It would take two seconds for a burglar to close the lid and walk off with it.

I figure my ~20 piece collection is worth ~$10k. I don't specifically insure it by making sure my homeowners insurance has an additional rider for high-value items, but mostly because the likelihood of it being stolen is very low, and my ability to replace it makes the hassle involved somewhat pointless.

If we get robbed, I'm more concerned about a couple pieces of my wife's jewelry and my laptop. If the whole place burned down, the insurance would be enough to replace everything we'd miss.

The sad irony in a collection of affordables being stolen is that the scumbag stealing it has no idea that there's nothing there worth the effort. That collection is only valuable to its owner and other enthusiasts.

A pawn shop might give a guy $2k for everything in my case, if they wanted it at all. There's a high probability that those watches end up being thrown away or sold for pennies on the dollar.

Case in point - when we had inventory stolen from our old warehouse, we found some of those pieces being sold on the LetGo app and eBay for less than my production cost. Brand new, $500 Orthos, asking $100. We found a few pieces on LetGo, and a few on eBay, all for too-good-to-be-true asking prices, but only one being sold by a pawn shop (for a much more reasonable asking price).

We lost over 100 pieces of inventory in that debacle. Where did it all go? It wasn't for sale online or in pawn shops.

More likely, the thieves just kept the watches, or gave them away, or threw them away when they heard the theft was discovered and the police were involved, and no one had profited much by the theft anyway.

Why bother keeping a $500-$600 watch you can't quickly sell it for more than $100? Selling for a low-enough price to make quick cash just raises suspicion and attracts unwanted attention. Why increase your risk of being arrested by putting one up for sale long enough or doing the work necessary to get $300-$400 for it?

When it was all said and done, the one guy who sold one piece to a pawn shop faced prosecution. Everyone else involved got away with it, but none of them profited much, if at all.

Who profited, aside from anyone who kept the watch they stole or received one from one of the thieves?

The handful of people who bought those stolen pieces on LetGo or eBay, for pennies on the dollar. Who were they? Watch geeks just looking to score a deal - basically the only people other than you who'd put any value on your collection of affordables.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Brand wise, absolutely, agreed 100%. I feel like the Speedmaster is a special case though, because it's Omega's defining model, more than anything else they make by far. The "bond watch" doesn't even come close. The Daytona's mega success is FAR more recent, sort of displacing what a solid gold Day-Date used to be as arguably the ultimate Rolex status symbol, above the Sub, GMT-Master, Yachtmaster (itself largely obscure until recently), and the rest of their models.
> 
> Everyone knows what a Rolex Submariner is, just like everyone knows what a Mercedes S-class is. The Planet Ocean is more like an Audi A8 - for people that specifically don't want an S-class for whatever reason, and a car that most people likely have no idea what it is. The Daytona is still a Mercedes in this analogy, the big kahuna above BMW and Audi, but something much less recognizable (I think) than an S-class. Maybe a G-wagen. Super cool and flashy and desirable _now_, but 30 years ago, no one had any clue what a G-wagen was, even though it was around.


Agree to disagree.

I don't think the Speedmaster is a "special case" such that it's better-known to the general public than the Rolex Daytona. I think Omega as a brand isn't nearly as well-known to the public, and the Speedmaster doesn't stand out any more than any other Omega model as being "THE" Omega the general public knows about and desires.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> I think I would struggle with just two. I'm able to slice things up to 6, but beyond that, the use cases get too fuzzy, and I end up with duplicates playing the same role, which I don't want. One of my SKX mods will be all PVD/stealth black ceramic with the jade green monster dial. I probably won't wear it that much, but it will be a fun diversion every now and then. The other SKX is the beater, the one I don't really care what happens to because every single part is easily replaced if necessary. The Aevig is my "pool party" watch. The two Seiko cocktails are similar, but different enough to fill different roles. The SDGC009 with its baton hands is more of an every day watch, while the 017 with its dauphine hands is better suited to more elegant occasions, but even on black leather I feel like it sort of has a limit on how dressy it can get because the brown striped/sun ray/fume dial is a bit too showy for really formal stuff, which is where the Zodiac comes in. It'll also work every day without stepping on the toes of the 009 since they are so different, but on black leather I think it could handle even black tie stuff.
> 
> For the same amount of money invested I suppose I could have a single Aqua-Terra and maybe like a cheap Seiko 5 "diver," but that really doesn't appeal to me nearly as much. It's a nice watch, but it would be boring having the same watch on every day.


As a rookie, I had a vague strategy to try owning lots of different types of watches. I don't have a chrono, let's look for one of those. Cushion case, you say? Yes, please, let's find one. Black watch, square watch, swiss movement, etc., etc. I matured just enough watch-wise to realize I like what I like and it is pointless to try owning every different style, feature available.

I really hear you guys when you say fewer choices could be appealing. But I also don't bother trying to eliminate duplicates that are too similar. I have an SKX007 on a strapcode bracelet. I also have an SKX173 on a waffle strap. Love both. Don't care one bit that they are the basically the same watch. It is actually kind of nice that if I'm feeling SKX, one is available on metal or rubber, ready to go. That is the type of luxury inexpensive watches afford you. 

I guess my point is that for me, it sounds like too much effort to maintain strict order and watch count in my collection.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Do you keep your collection together, all in one place? Is it worth more than your homeowners insurance deductible? I keep my collection in an easily transported travel case. It would take two seconds for a burglar to close the lid and walk off with it.
> 
> I figure my ~20 piece collection is worth ~$10k. I don't specifically insure it by making sure my homeowners insurance has an additional rider for high-value items, but mostly because the likelihood of it being stolen is very low, and my ability to replace it makes the hassle involved somewhat pointless.
> 
> ...


Generally, yes. All in the same room, at least. Not all in a bug out bag, though. I thought you were going to say that was so you could save them in the event of a disaster. Make sure the people are moving, grab the dog, grab the gun, grab the watches, jump into the nearest shoes, quick WOT, and out the door!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I don't have a garbage fake two tone Day Date (with crown and brand name on the dial) that a family member bought from a street vendor in Korea decades ago. But for the sake of discussion, let's pretend I do. I'd never wear it. It would just be unceremoniously tossed in a desk valet on my dresser. Maybe I should display it more prominently as a decoy in case anyone was ever faced with a choice of which of my watches to run off with. Thank you leading luxury watch brand for your relentless marketing efforts!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Does anyone insure their watches? If all of my watches were sold off to buy one high dollar piece, I think I would want to insure it. As it stands, I don't have any single piece that seems worth the hassle.


I could see doing that if I regularly wore something worth $4K+. I'll never forget the story of the guy on here who banged his wrist against the railing of a boat, which snapped one of the spring bars on his watch, and sent his Submariner tumbling into the ocean, never to be seen again. I'd be curious just how long the seals will hold out before the water eventually gets to it. If my place burns down our my entire watch case is stolen, home insurance will cover that. Much more annoying than the money is how difficult the watches would be to replace. The V1 Huldra is a very modestly priced watch, but it's also basically irreplaceable. They do not come up for sale. My two Seiko cocktails are both 1 of 500s, and while there are enough 017s floating around that I could replace that one sooner or later, the blue 009 is considerably more rare, and that would be tough.

The SKXes on the other hand are the polar opposite, a collection of very easily replaced mod parts (other than the SARB059 dial in one of them) and I'd probably just use the excuse to make two completely different new ones. So in my case, insurance really doesn't help that much. Whereas if I had a $4500 A-T, I could just take the check from the insurance co, go down to the A/D, and get another.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Generally, yes. All in the same room, at least. Not all in a bug out bag, though. I thought you were going to say that was so you could save them in the event of a disaster. Make sure the people are moving, grab the dog, grab the gun, grab the watches, jump into the nearest shoes, quick WOT, and out the door!


That portability in an instant is a benefit, but only as a positive by-product.

Lots of WIS keep their collections in something not very portable. A display case, within a piece of furniture, etc. The fact I don't only helps solidify the fact that I'm only a collector by accident, not by nature.

Not long after I started owning more than a handful of watches, I started going places to meet up with other WIS, and ease of transport became a priority for me, much more so than any feeling of wanting to see my collection on display would ever be.

For the last few years, that travel case has sat on the floor in a corner of my office, not somewhere you'd put something central to your thoughts. I didn't have a place of distinction for it, only a place which was convenient enough for me to access when I wanted a watch. Early last month, it got moved to my closet, where it stayed until meeting up with some guys this week. Now it's back in a corner of my office, jammed between the wall and a rack of shelves.

The watches I wear tend to end up floating around on my desk for days, sometimes weeks, not ritually and respectfully returned to their siblings in the nest. When I put watches back in the case, it's when I'm trying to reduce clutter in my workspace, and I go on a cleaning frenzy.

I'm not wired for valuing pretty things or curating them as they ought to be. I'm wired for quick bursts of fascination, immediately followed by detached neglect. My environment endures long periods of utter yet controlled chaos, punctuated by brief periods of sterile organization.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> As a rookie, I had a vague strategy to try owning lots of different types of watches. I don't have a chrono, let's look for one of those. Cushion case, you say? Yes, please, let's find one. Black watch, square watch, swiss movement, etc., etc. I matured just enough watch-wise to realize I like what I like and it is pointless to try owning every different style, feature available.
> 
> I really hear you guys when you say fewer choices could be appealing. But I also don't bother trying to eliminate duplicates that are too similar. I have an SKX007 on a strapcode bracelet. I also have an SKX173 on a waffle strap. Love both. Don't care one bit that they are the basically the same watch. It is actually kind of nice that if I'm feeling SKX, one is available on metal or rubber, ready to go. That is the type of luxury inexpensive watches afford you.
> 
> I guess my point is that for me, it sounds like too much effort to maintain strict order and watch count in my collection.


I started out with all chronos, and eventually learned that I don't need or even like them all that much. There are definitely plenty of lessons you learn along the way. On the one hand you could say I have duplicates - two SKXes, two SDGC multi-hand cocktails. But in my mind, they're different enough that they have their own roles, and I also really like the SKX as a fun mod platform and I love the SDGC cocktail design, so why not get more of what I like instead of just trying to do something different?

I don't really have a strict count per se, it's more that I want to regularly use and appreciate all of my watches, and if six starts to become ten, then that's going to be much harder to do.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> That portability in an instant is a benefit, but only as a positive by-product.
> 
> Lots of WIS keep their collections in something not very portable. A display case, within a piece of furniture, etc. The fact I don't only helps solidify the fact that I'm only a collector by accident, not by nature.
> 
> ...


My case is mainly a strap case that happens to have some watches in it. The center part lifts out and there's more storage underneath (for the lesser worn straps) as well as a few bits like my reserve crystal for the Huldra, and SKX mod bits.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> That is quite the collection. What do you do with them all? I guess I just don't have that mindset, but I'd have a tough time justifying more than one watch per day of the week. I'm currently sitting at four, with one additional that's for sale. My second SKX mod project will make five, and then another that I'm likely going to pull the trigger on today will be six, and I think that'll do for the indefinite future.


I actually enjoy wearing each and every one. A lot of them have stories attached to them, such as the Lew & Huey Spectre II i purchased directly from "Doc" himself at a GTG in King o Prussia PA couple years ago. Good stuff.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

3WR said:


> As a rookie, I had a vague strategy to try owning lots of different types of watches. I don't have a chrono, let's look for one of those. Cushion case, you say? Yes, please, let's find one. Black watch, square watch, swiss movement, etc., etc. I matured just enough watch-wise to realize I like what I like and it is pointless to try owning every different style, feature available.
> 
> I really hear you guys when you say fewer choices could be appealing. But I also don't bother trying to eliminate duplicates that are too similar. I have an SKX007 on a strapcode bracelet. I also have an SKX173 on a waffle strap. Love both. Don't care one bit that they are the basically the same watch. It is actually kind of nice that if I'm feeling SKX, one is available on metal or rubber, ready to go. That is the type of luxury inexpensive watches afford you.
> 
> I guess my point is that for me, it sounds like too much effort to maintain strict order and watch count in my collection.


That's me too. I like having diverse choices but also similar ones. (Orange Mako and Pepsi Mako? Why the hell not?) And I don't feel guilty if some watches I like tend to sit in the box most of the year. I still like owning them and remembering how/where/why I acquired them. In fact, some of those are very cool vintage Swiss dress watches that were some of my first purchases when I knew almost nothing, but I loved how they look and now I appreciate them more. Even if the "fancy" occasions when I wear them are fairly rare, I like knowing I own them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> I would only differ SLIGHTLY with you, on the first point.
> 
> As a brand, Rolex is indeed the default choice for anyone who wants "THE" luxury brand watch. But, within the brand's product range, there are those models which seem to attract the less enlightened, and those which are more appealing to those of us in the know. I had hoped to steer Dave away from the former, towards the latter.
> 
> Tell me you wouldn't like a Milguass. Really? None of them? You couldn't live with a steel SubC, or a Polar Explorer? C'mon...those are nice pieces, and no one who knows watches will necessarily assume you just went into the AD and bought the first Rollie they showed you.


With regard to your comment above, and trying to keep an open mind, I spend much of the afternoon looking at Rolex on Chrono24. I'm not a fan of round marker/indices, Mercedes hour hands, or cyclops date windows, so that eliminates probably about 60% of the Rolex line. But you were right Doc, I could live with a Milguass, specifically the green/black/orange model, Ref 116400GV. I would have to (this is probably blasphemy) put it a a strap though. With that said, there are 7-8 other 'luxury' brands that have models I would purchase before the Milguass. IWC, JLC, Blancpain, and Glashutte Original have the leading contenders.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

jcar79 said:


> Can you share your wrist size?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is relatively large at 7.5 inches and I also like to wear my watches a little loose on my wrist.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> The recent exercise in trying to come up with a list of recos for some budding watch geeks led me to realize how unsuited I am to being a watch collector at all. I think I could live and be happy with just two pieces - a good diver as a daily beater, and a good GADA type piece for everything else. That would spare me the mental energy of figuring out what to wear whenever I go to put a watch on, and I think I'd feel more attachment to those two pieces than I do to anything I now own.
> .


So when are you going to design and build this fabled GADA type watch you are talking about. You have already successfully delivered my favourite diver, so now I am waiting on your take for a GADA watch 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

The thing about generalizations is they're unfounded, illogical, and useless, typically offered by guys projecting their own worst selves on others.

I own what I like. I wear what i like. Don't care a rat about what some stranger thinks. I talk about them here because it's (sometimes) fun. I have too many. I sold some recently, but then bought some because, i dunno. Bright shiny object? Maybe I'm a squirrel.

My latest incoming. 








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

And wtf does GADA stand for?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> And wtf does GADA stand for?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Get America Drinking Again.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> My latest incoming.


Very nice. Like the green, date window and, what appears to be, shorter lugs. Looks good!


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Get America Drinking Again.


Already doing it.









Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> So when are you going to design and build this fabled GADA type watch you are talking about. You have already successfully delivered my favourite diver, so now I am waiting on your take for a GADA watch
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


hwa has already designed it....just sayin'.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Toonces said:


> hwa has already designed it....just sayin'.












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Hey Chris,

Out of curiosity, did you change the crown design on all the new subs? Or is it just a different style on the 90s5 movements? Or is it certain models? I don't think I have seen this mentioned. Definitely the first thing I noticed. Not in a bad way, just that the two crowns were very different.

Loving my new Tikuna. It has some sort of awesome 80's vibe to it that I can't explain. I know it's not for everyone, but I think it is rad.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> Hey Chris,
> 
> Out of curiosity, did you change the crown design on all the new subs? Or is it just a different style on the 90s5 movements? Or is it certain models? I don't think I have seen this mentioned. Definitely the first thing I noticed. Not in a bad way, just that the two crowns were very different.
> 
> ...


First I've heard of it.

Glad you like the Tikuna.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> First I've heard of it.
> 
> Glad you like the Tikuna.


Okay, first off, I would like to apologize. Pretty sure I am just an idiot. I think it was either the lighting, the drinking, or a combination of the two. Under natural light and sober the crowns indeed look the same.

I think just since the new watch is obviously shinier, it played with the light a little differently. I suppose this is exhibit A as to why you shouldn't do QC while drinking.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## illumidata (Apr 4, 2014)

Dub Rubb said:


> Okay, first off, I would like to apologize. Pretty sure I am just an idiot. I think it was either the lighting, the drinking, or a combination of the two. Under natural light and sober the crowns indeed look the same.
> 
> I think just since the new watch is obviously shinier, it played with the light a little differently. I suppose this is exhibit A as to why you shouldn't do QC while drinking.
> 
> ...


Your first shot did make them look completely different 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Dub Rubb said:


>


Idk man, they don't look the same. The crown on the right has a narrower ridge-ring and more triangular (cone-like) base... And the "top" of the dome is further out from the ridge.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> Idk man, they don't look the same. The crown on the right has a narrower ridge-ring and more triangular (cone-like) base... And the "top" of the dome is further out from the ridge.


They do look the same and that's what he was stating.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

They're the same. Just different slant from where the camera is.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

QC while drunk:

https://media3.giphy.com/media/Syxs...e47e3508bc8ed3c3c21839c852a5d97&rid=giphy.gif

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> Okay, first off, I would like to apologize. Pretty sure I am just an idiot. I think it was either the lighting, the drinking, or a combination of the two. Under natural light and sober the crowns indeed look the same.
> 
> I think just since the new watch is obviously shinier, it played with the light a little differently. I suppose this is exhibit A as to why you shouldn't do QC while drinking.
> 
> ...


You had me convinced.

Thanks for clearing it up. I'll let my factory know they no longer need to look into it.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

I’ve been looking at some of the prior rounds of NTH subs. The Swaardvis seems like it may have flown under the radar as I don’t see much discussion of it. But it looks sweet! Doc, any hope of doing that one again, or another orange dial sub? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

You know my feelings about another run of Dutch Subs, doc...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

No plans.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

ck2k01 said:


> You know my feelings about another run of Dutch Subs, doc...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ahh, I should have recognized the connection between the Dutch name and orange color. Cool. My alma mater was named after the Dutch Prince William of Orange and we wear a hell of a lot of orange and black at reunions!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

When do you guys think we will start seeing tariffs raise our cost of our beloved micros? Or will producers eat the cost to remain competitive? 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> When do you guys think we will start seeing tariffs raise our cost of our beloved micros? Or will producers eat the cost to remain competitive?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Interesting question.

The new 15% tariffs on watches went into effect this month. I haven't seen too many people talking about them, nor have I noticed any uptick in discussions of "these damned micros raising their prices".

I would expect there to be a delay between increased costs and increased prices among most sellers, for several reasons:

1. Most of the watches they're selling were received by them before the tariffs went into effect.

2. They may not have received any new watches since the tariffs went into effect.

3. Most micros sell through pre-orders, and set prices months in advance of taking delivery. Any pre-order watch being delivered this month or later was likely paid for before the brand owner had any opportunity to raise prices due to tariffs.

4. Just my observation, but I think most microbrand owners don't really know how to do good financial analysis of their own business. It will take them longer to see the impact, and make any adjustment to it.

5. Most microbrands are selling on "value for money", and so the owners don't want to be the first to raise prices. It'll create a big game of "Chicken", to see who'll jump first.

6. Just my observation, but it seems like the industry as a whole has seen a slowdown in sales this year. Many brands are sitting on too much inventory to think about raising prices, and may have slowed down on production.


----------



## EddieTheBeast (Jun 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> Interesting question.
> 
> The new 15% tariffs on watches went into effect this month. I haven't seen too many people talking about them, nor have I noticed any uptick in discussions of "these damned micros raising their prices".
> 
> ...


This all makes sense - but can you explain the new 15% tariffs on watches to your friends across the big pond!?!


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



EddieTheBeast said:


> This all makes sense - but can you explain the new 15% tariffs on watches to your friends across the big pond!?!


Large orange man told China I'll show you. He Has called for tariffs on all kinds of goods. So when a US based microbrand imports the watches they clear customs,before you are allowed to take possession you need to pay the tariffs. It will be a %15 fee for the declared production cost not he retail value. This tariff can be avoided if the watches aren't shipped to the US and then sold from the US. Atm its likely a 10-30$ cost per watch for micros based in the US. Will be curious to see what happens

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

EddieTheBeast said:


> This all makes sense - but can you explain the new 15% tariffs on watches to your friends across the big pond!?!


Without injecting politics into it...

Calculating customs duties on watches imported into the USA has always been done with a complex formula, and depends on some specifics about the watch, such as whether or not there's precious metal in the case, and how many jewels are in the movement, if the movement is automatic or not, etc.

There are several rates applied, different rates for different components, where the value of the imported goods can be broken down in different ways, at the discretion of the importer.

To put the new tariffs into context, it helps to understand that with the watches we import, prior to the tariffs, we'd pay about 2%-3% of the total value (watch + box) in customs duties.

The new tariffs apply a 15% tax on the entire value, no matter how it's broken down, and add 15% to the box, so it's a much bigger number than the customs duties were previously. The import costs are now close to 20% of the total.

Imagine the prices for all US-based watch companies going up by 15%, at a minimum. For those in VAT-paying countries, your added ~20% would be on top of that. A USD $500 / GBP $600 watch becomes a USD $575 / GBP $690 watch. A $650 NTH Sub becomes a $750 NTH Sub. Potentially, that's where this is headed.

What's interesting about these tariffs is that with watches, they're not combative, they're just punitive. There isn't a group of companies in the USA who stand to benefit from these tariffs, so there's no direct, strategic benefit for US businesses, other than punishing imports from China, ostensibly in an effort to pressure the Chinese government to make some reforms.

What I mean is - there's really no mass production of watches industry left in the USA. The customs calculations previously only took into account the value of the steel parts, not the value of the movement. There are vendors in the USA who can make steel parts, but there are no more USA-based (mechanical) movement companies.

In theory, you could get cases and other steel parts made here, but I'd think the costs would be prohibitive. It's not just the labor. It's the higher costs of set up, tooling, materials, and all the built-in ancillary costs, like regulatory compliance (workplace safety, environmental standards, etc). Then you would have higher follow-on costs of assembly, with higher labor rates, and potentially expensive problems with vendor cooperation.

I'm not complaining or trying to make my job seem more complex than it is, but I think about the industry-specific knowledge base which exists in China, and does not exist here. There's no annual trade show where US manufacturers of watch-specific components gather for guys like me to shop for cases, clasps, crystals, etc.

I had no manufacturing knowledge prior to starting my business. The Chinese industry is basically turn-key for guys like me. It wouldn't be as plug-and-play for someone starting out and hoping to source everything in the US.

There are extremely few US based companies advertising their services or products to the watch industry, and none I see as being able to move the market. There's one company making "American" quartz movements, and offering assembly services, but that's really it, and it's not enough.

If you wanted to make everything here, you'd have to first find, then vet, then educate the vendors on what they need to know, about things like case engineering, and all the other nuances that I currently don't have to think about. It's a daunting process of trial and error, which would no doubt be very expensive and time consuming.

It's not impossible, but it's impossible for someone like me, with my resources, to do by myself. If Fossil wanted to do it, they could. They have the resources. Probably Shinola could too. Otherwise, I'd hope to see a guy like Chris Wiegand from Lum-Tec lead the charge, or be part of a consortium of smaller US-based brands working together to develop a group of vendors we'd all use.

I don't think the tariffs are high enough to drive a big move to bring production back here to the US. All they do is raise costs. But without being enough to move production away from China, they won't feel the effect, only we will.


----------



## EddieTheBeast (Jun 26, 2019)

^^^ thanks for such an excellent detailed explanation. I didn't realise the USA watch companies relied on China so much. 

It'd be great however if some US companies did move production away from China. But then costs would go up for customers and I'm sure most would just turn elsewhere - so it'd be a brave company that went down that road.

In the UK Christopher Ward are offering watches with in-house movements - but in reality their manufacturing is all based in Switzerland! So not really British made, just a British company!!


----------



## EddieTheBeast (Jun 26, 2019)

Some Phantom photos from earlier today:


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Without injecting politics into it...
> 
> Calculating customs duties on watches imported into the USA has always been done with a complex formula, and depends on some specifics about the watch, such as whether or not there's precious metal in the case, and how many jewels are in the movement, if the movement is automatic or not, etc.
> 
> ...


Tariffs aren't based on your retail price, they are based on the invoice price that's declared in customs. Customs doesn't know nor do they ask your retail price. You pay based on the declared value when it enters the country, thus a $200 production cost would add $30 to the cost of an NTH not $100. Of course I don't know the exact cost of production except i know it's more than 100 and less $400. 15% Tariffs don't raise retail price 15% they will raise it [...15 * production(invoice) = added cost, added cost / retail = % change]... Either way this ins't good for me as a consumer or you as a producer. I hope costs are split in the future. This could hopefully spur more MFG growth in the US.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> So when are you going to design and build this fabled GADA type watch you are talking about. You have already successfully delivered my favourite diver, so now I am waiting on your take for a GADA watch
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not convinced a true "Go Anywhere / Do Anything" watch actually exists, or at least, I'm not convinced there's any real consensus about what that looks like.

When I start considering it, I start out thinking it's a no-bezel case, and "basic black" sort of dial design, like the Certina DS-1. I owned one, and loved it enough to think I'd have been happy wearing it to the office every day, but I wouldn't take it to the beach or wear it doing anything which might lead to it getting banged up.

Military style, like a pilot or field watch? Probably not appropriate for suit-and-tie, in many situations. Something like the Sinn 556i comes close, I guess, but it's a bit small for a lot of guys (it is for me).

Until recently, if I was putting on a suit, I'd reach for a Cerberus, but at 42mm, they're a bit big for a "dress" watch, and like the DS-1, not really what I'd want for going on vacation or working outside. Even an Antilles, which I think is dressy enough to wear with a suit - not really rugged enough to be my "beater".

The last wedding I went to, a few months back, I wore my Nacken Modern Blue. People may say that anything with a dive bezel isn't appropriate to wear with a suit, but, hey, if it works for James Bond, who are we to argue?

So...you've got a bunch of NTH Subs which are 40mm, small enough to not be "too big", thin enough to slip under a shirt cuff, and not too toolish in their design to think people will give you the stink-eye at your cousin's wedding, and rugged enough to take on vacation or wear while working outside.

I wouldn't grab a Tikuna, but the Vanguard, the Skipjack, the Santa Cruz, the Nacken Moderns, the Odins, the Dolphin Ice, and any of the Barracudas should work well enough as your GADA watch, if your GADA just has to be an NTH.

If you're just pining for me to make something without a dive bezel, that's a horse of a different color, and we'll no doubt beat it well beyond death whenever I feel like starting that discussion, which isn't today.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

EddieTheBeast said:


> ^^^ thanks for such an excellent detailed explanation. I didn't realise the USA watch companies relied on China so much.
> 
> It'd be great however if some US companies did move production away from China. But then costs would go up for customers and I'm sure most would just turn elsewhere - so it'd be a brave company that went down that road.
> 
> In the UK Christopher Ward are offering watches with in-house movements - but in reality their manufacturing is all based in Switzerland! So not really British made, just a British company!!


I can almost guarantee that very few of CW's parts are actually produced in Switzerland, despite being "Swiss Made".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JLS36 said:


> Tariffs aren't based on your retail price, they are based on the invoice price that's declared in customs. Customs doesn't know nor do they ask your retail price. You pay based on the declared value when it enters the country, thus a $200 production cost would add $30 to the cost of an NTH not $100. Of course I don't know the exact cost of production except i know it's more than 100 and less $400. 15% Tariffs don't raise retail price 15% they will raise it [...15 * production(invoice) = added cost, added cost / retail = % change]... Either way this ins't good for me as a consumer or you as a producer. I hope costs are split in the future. This could hopefully spur more MFG growth in the US.


Are you seriously arguing this with me?

1. I never said tariffs are based on my retail price. I know they're based on the declared value. I could explain the exact calculation for customs duties, because it's not on the total value, but on how that value is broken down by component, but it's way too deep in the weeds, and more than I feel needs to be explained to answer someone's question about tariffs, generally.

2. 15% tariffs would potentially raise retail prices by 15%, exactly as I said, not only by the incremental amount my costs increase by. And I can explain why...

If the cost of one component, say, the movement, goes up by 10%, say it's $6, I don't just raise my retail price $6. I have to pay customs costs on that $6, and all of the added cost gets wrapped into my landed costs, BEFORE I apply a markup.

Retail pricing on a product like watches isn't done like a government contract, where it's cost + X%, that X% being the limit on the profit the vendor can make. Retail prices are markups (a multiple) of total cost, or at least, a markup of total cost should be a component of retail pricing strategy. The economics of this business demand it. You can't be profitable if all you're doing is passing the increase along to the customer 1:1, dollar for dollar.

So, if my markup was 2x, meaning I were to simply double my costs to reach a retail price, that $6 increase in my cost means a more than $12 increase in retail prices. Thus, a 15% increase in my costs equates directly to AT LEAST a 15% increase in retail pricing.

Please, for the love of God, do not argue with me about the intricate details of my business. You have no idea the can of worms you're opening, and the wall of text I could build here. If you're not running a watch brand, you're simply out of your depth in this conversation.

Trust me, I'm not BS'ing here. The 15% tariffs could mean a 15% increase in retail pricing, at a minimum, taking effect sometime in the future.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

When I hear GADA, I immediately think of something like a Sinn 556 (personal preference, I like the A version, which is definitely more a pilot watch which can be pressed into service as GADA), Seiko SARB033/035, Certina DS-1, Tissot PR100... and of course everyone else's (not mine...) favorite, Rolex Explorer. 

With a 7" wrist, I find that all-dial (no rotating bezel) 40mm watches simply wear too large. Looking at you, Sinn 856, which I flipped due to the size @ a nominally reasonable 40mm. Even the Sinn 556 at 38.5mm is on the outside of what I prefer. Loves me my Glycine Combat 6 36mm, which actually measures out a hair over 37mm at the case. So when someone says GADA, I'm hoping for something in the 36-38mm range, no dive or other rotating bezel. 

Scroll back through here and you can find HWA swapping assemblies -- dial, movement, hands -- out of NTH watches into 36mm cases. I think they look pretty slick, indeed. I'd be more than satisfied if Doc merely had a decent, thin, 36-38mm case designed to hold his current Sub assemblies. Hit the "Make it so!" button, take my money. 

But I know that wouldn't be the Doc Way, it would get much more involved, and inevitably grow in complexity and need for resources, both time and money. 

I was surprised when I got my first NTH sub by how small it actually was when on the wrist. To the point that I completely understand the drive for a larger XL version -- I have no doubt that a larger sub would sell in probably magnitudes more than a smaller-case no-rotating-bezel model line. Not to mention the opportunity cost of taking a risk on a smaller watch, a whole new model line, vs. devoting resources to new runs of the regular subs, with variations (Scorpene with 12hr bezel -- yes, please...).

And when it comes right down to it, GADA means different things to different people. I think of it as no-rotating-bezel, smaller watch. Others think of it as a Rolex Sub, Tudor BB, and the like. In that sense, most of the current crop of NTH subs fit the bill just fine. I'd wear my Amphion Commando with a coat and tie, no problem, no fear of citation from the Fashion Police...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Recently, we printed a tarot deck and book package in China. It wasn't until we were already committed, way into production planning, that we heard it would be subject to the 15% tariff. There were delays at the printer. 

When it finallly shipped, some idiot at the printer decided the Proforma Invoice (what Customs uses to determine value/tariff/duties...) should be at the retail price, not the manufacturing unit cost, about 10x the actual value. 

Product shipped end of July. While it was on the water, idiots in DC decided that Sep 1 is when tariffs would be slapped on such things as our book/deck package.

Printer issued an amended Proforma and our freight forwarder made things right. Ship hit Port of NY Aug 30. 

Skin of the teeth...


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Are you seriously arguing this with me?
> 
> 1. I never said tariffs are based on my retail price. I know they're based on the declared value. I could explain the exact calculation, because it's not on the total value, but on how that value is broken down by component, but it's way too deep in the weeds, and more than I feel needs to be explained to answer someone's question about tariffs, generally.
> 
> ...


i could be wrong i will withdraw


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Are you seriously arguing this with me?
> 
> 1. I never said tariffs are based on my retail price. I know they're based on the declared value. I could explain the exact calculation, because it's not on the total value, but on how that value is broken down by component, but it's way too deep in the weeds, and more than I feel needs to be explained to answer someone's question about tariffs, generally.
> 
> ...


I could be wrong i will withdraw


----------



## EddieTheBeast (Jun 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> I can almost guarantee that very few of CW's parts are actually produced in Switzerland, despite being "Swiss Made".


Yes I bet you're right. Good job most people don't look beyond what it says on the product! ;-)


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

JLS36 said:


> I don't want to go too deep down this rabbit hole but your logic is not sound nor is the economics of your argument. If I sell something in this country for $500 usd and I was importing it for say $100 usd. I had a *gross *profit of $400 usd. My production cost was 20% of my retail sale price. The tariffs are not a complex thing. They are a blanket 15% on consumer goods. You are importing a consumer good. A watch built in China. The cost on your invoice is what you are paying the tariffs of. So in my example I would add $15 dollars to the production cost of the watch making it $115, $15 / $500 is a 3% price raise. Economics are not always simple but this case is. I am fully able to make valid arguments in this space. I don't need to lay my resume on the table but this is a field I am fully comfortable making assements in. You have a deep and vast knowledge of your business and the workings of it and i appreciate that, it however does not mean that the rest of us are incapable of understanding economics and imports.


I think it's worth noting the addition *in red*, above. *Net* profit -- less expenses/overhead -- will be much lower.

If the financial model a company is working with is 5x manufacturing costs, and "manufacturing" includes all costs up to merchandise in distribution warehouse, then that additional 15% gets passed along to the consumer and the $500 watch becomes $575.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



EddieTheBeast said:


> Yes I bet you're right. Good job most people don't look beyond what it says on the product! ;-)


Not looking to use your post as the reason to re-open a debate I've litigated ad nauseum already. Only saying this for the benefit of anyone reading, who hasn't yet figured it out...

The difference in labor costs alone make the idea of even a remotely "affordable" watch with many parts actually made in Switzerland laughable. Because there are limited choices for hairsprings, that's always a part which is more likely to truly be a product of Switzerland. But all the other parts are much more likely to be made somewhere else, likely China, even in luxury brands.

It's not just the difference in labor costs, though those numbers alone make my argument easy enough to validate. When you add in the higher costs of land and facilities, and the higher costs of regulatory compliance, the production costs to make things in Europe, especially a place like Switzerland, would be astronomically higher, too high to believe that "Swiss Made" means there's very much production being done in Switzerland.

The rules are pretty clear if you read them, all of them, including the little loopholes in the footnotes, and can do math. Literally 100% of the parts could be made elsewhere, and the Swiss Made label could still be applied. The commonly misunderstood 60% number applies to the value of the assembled watch, the Swiss component of which could be all in R&D, labor, and the costs of certifying foreign-made parts as being equivalent in quality to parts made domestically. There don't need to be any parts literally made in Switzerland in a Swiss Made watch.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Not looking to use your post as the reason to re-open a debate I've litigated ad nauseum already. Only saying this for the benefit of anyone reading, who hasn't yet figured it out...
> 
> The difference in labor costs alone make the idea of even a remotely "affordable" watch with many parts actually made in Switzerland laughable. Because there are limited choices for hairsprings, that's always a part which is more likely to truly be a product of Switzerland. But all the other parts are much more likely to be made somewhere else, likely China, even in luxury brands.
> 
> ...


anyway how about those Eagles?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

It's definitely possible to build a substantial portion of your watch in the US, because Vero is doing it, about 20 minutes or so from where I live in Portland. Movement no (they are using Sellitas), hands no, case and dial yes, and I imagine they are importing their crystals from somewhere. That being said, their watches cost as much as Monta's. So while it can be done, you're definitely going to have to pay for the privilege of a mostly made in the US watch, and that still leaves out the movement.

RGM makes their movements here in the US and claims 90% US made content (with the rest being Swiss) but now you're talking Rolex Submariner money.


----------



## EddieTheBeast (Jun 26, 2019)

I think this wording on the Vero website says it for all:

'DESIGNED, ASSEMBLED, AND TESTED IN THE U.S.'

They just leave out the:

'PARTS BOUGHT FROM CHINA':


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

EddieTheBeast said:


> I think this wording on the Vero website says it for all:
> 
> 'DESIGNED, ASSEMBLED, AND TESTED IN THE U.S.'
> 
> ...


did u read or watch the video they make a lot of parts here.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

A GADA watch is tricky, because that means so many different things to different people, and you have to define just how "anything" the word anything actually means. I'm not going to go rock climbing with an Aqua-Terra, and I'm never going to wear a G-shock to a black-tie wedding.

Polished and brushed finishes are equally easy to scratch. Polishing shows more, but is easier to fix. I would think that a bead blasted case would be the least likely to show scratches, (my SKX has gotten banged around quite a bit with nary a mark on it) but if it _does_ scratch, you're probably screwed unless you refinish the entire thing.

For me personally, probably the closest to my ideal GADA watch is the Zodiac ZO9209 coming in the mail today. Not too much of a tool watch like the Pelagos, not overly showy and flashy like a Panerai. The glass dive bezel and dauphine hands give it an elegant dress diver look, but there's still enough lume for it to be functional, and it has a screwdown crown and is 20ATM rated, so there's absolutely no worry about getting it wet. It's also not too big at ~40mm, and not too tall. I could wear it to the beach on silicone, and to a formal wedding on black leather.

Really my only concern would be scratching the bezel, because that's mineral glass. So the "anything" would have to not include situations where I might expect that to happen.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> A GADA watch is tricky, because that means so many different things to different people, and you have to define just how "anything" the word anything actually means. I'm not going to go rock climbing with an Aqua-Terra, and I'm never going to wear a G-shock to a black-tie wedding.
> 
> Polished and brushed finishes are equally easy to scratch. Polishing shows more, but is easier to fix. I would think that a bead blasted case would be the least likely to show scratches, (my SKX has gotten banged around quite a bit with nary a mark on it) but if it _does_ scratch, you're probably screwed unless you refinish the entire thing.


In my life, I hear about the 80/20 rule a lot. Make a rule that works for 80% of situations, and the 20% outside that can be examined for exceptions on a case by case basis. So for me, GADA means it's a watch that can work in 80% of situations with 10% on either side, where it is either not dress enough or not beater enough. And I would argue that most of my watches fall in this category, on purpose.

Bead blasted cases can be hard to maintain in pristine condition. They tend to show scuffs as shiny bits on an otherwise matte finish. And where, generally, imperfections can be fixed with brushed or polished surfaces, harder to do so with a blasted finish.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Not a GADA unless you're an adventurer in some novel series I've never read. But every time I think I might need to try a Professional or Searambler, my next thought is always, "Nah, I've got this thing from Doc and co. I'm gonna wear that today."










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Davekaye90 said:


> A GADA watch is tricky, because that means so many different things to different people, and you have to define just how "anything" the word anything actually means. I'm not going to go rock climbing with an Aqua-Terra, and I'm never going to wear a G-shock to a black-tie wedding.
> 
> Polished and brushed finishes are equally easy to scratch. Polishing shows more, but is easier to fix. I would think that a bead blasted case would be the least likely to show scratches, (my SKX has gotten banged around quite a bit with nary a mark on it) but if it _does_ scratch, you're probably screwed unless you refinish the entire thing.
> 
> ...


Gorgeous watch. Congrats!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Without injecting politics into it...
> 
> What's interesting about these tariffs is that with watches, they're not combative, they're just punitive.
> 
> ...


Exactly this.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I like the theory of GADA but I concur it's subjective as to what someone hones in on as a GADA for him or her.

So while many would say an Explorer I, I say give me a date and GMT complication for my GADA. Because I subjectively want some traveler spirit in my GADA.

I've even looked at throwing a chrono atop that pile of complications (e.g., Sinn has one), but then you're talking basketball player height on the side (e.g., that Sinn), or else quartz (e.g., Seiko Flightmaster but it's busy like a Navitimer) or a price beyond my comfort zone (can't think of a good example right now-maybe a Navitimer GMT).

As another subjectivity example, I was seriously looking at the Monta Atlas as my potential GADA. But then I realized that while it works well for work, I know me and that I wouldn't wear a dressier fixed bezel hiking, paddle boarding, or snowboarding (e.g., I've never reached for my SARB033 for such an occasion). My style is more casual than that, especially when not working.










Most days I reach for a thin, reasonably priced (sub-$1000) diver like an NTH Sub or Halios Seaforth as my work-and-play watch (GADA).










My first focused attempt at a GADA was a 12-hour Seaforth with a neutral dial color (albeit sunburst).










But the GMT Seaforth with dive bezel is probably my current GADA pick out of my collection.










If I had to pick a fixed bezel without complications, maybe this guy, since it's still rugged and has more flair than an Explorer I.



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EddieTheBeast (Jun 26, 2019)

Davekaye90 said:


> A GADA watch is tricky, because that means so many different things to different people, and you have to define just how "anything" the word anything actually means. I'm not going to go rock climbing with an Aqua-Terra, and I'm never going to wear a G-shock to a black-tie wedding.
> 
> Polished and brushed finishes are equally easy to scratch. Polishing shows more, but is easier to fix. I would think that a bead blasted case would be the least likely to show scratches, (my SKX has gotten banged around quite a bit with nary a mark on it) but if it _does_ scratch, you're probably screwed unless you refinish the entire thing.
> 
> ...


That Zodiac looks good! :-!

But I'd go for my Seiko Alpinist as my ideal GADA. I think it's only problem is the beautiful green dial doesn't go with everything you may wish to wear! But when the new black dial Alpinist is released in January, that'll be hard to beat!! Smart finished case, 70 hours power reserve, Sapphire crystal, beautiful hands, good lume ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> It's definitely possible to build a _*substantial portion*_ of your watch in the US, because Vero is doing it, about 20 minutes or so from where I live in Portland. Movement no (they are using Sellitas), hands no, case and dial yes, and I imagine they are importing their crystals from somewhere. That being said, their watches cost as much as Monta's. So while it can be done, you're definitely going to have to pay for the privilege of a mostly made in the US watch, and that still leaves out the movement.
> 
> RGM makes their movements here in the US and claims 90% US made content (with the rest being Swiss) but now you're talking Rolex Submariner money.
> 
> ...


"Substantial"?

No, not really, Vero isn't.

Vero makes two parts, the case and dial, that's it? That's not a "substantial" portion. That's two parts, among many, and not the two most valuable components. The dial especially is a low-cost component, compared to the case. And, as you point out, look at their prices, to get a feel for how much more it costs to make just those two parts, and I assume do assembly here.

For another similar example, go look at now-defunct Niall, which made a big noise about making cases and doing assembly in the USA.

RGM? Not "Made in America", according to the FTC's "all, or virtually all" standard. I'm not criticizing RGM. Far from it. I've nothing but the highest regard for what Roland Murphy does. But, again, look at the prices, to see how much more it costs to do as much as they are doing here, which is vastly more than most, but still not "all" or even "virtually all". I tip my hat to Roland for all the parts he does make in his shop, but it's a fallacy to think that it's all but a few small bits.

And, even at that, RGM makes...a whopping 300 watches per year.

That's not really "MASS" production, which is the term I used in my previous post. When we say MASS production, a 300-500 piece production run is SMALL. Our vendors are churning out tens of thousands of pieces per year. RGM is a bespoke watch company, making 300 pieces per year, with a long waiting list. They may as well be making them to order, and for all I know, that's exactly what they're doing.

And RGM doesn't offer any services or components to other brands, like mine, so it's not like RGM represents an industry infrastructure on par with what brands like mine can access in China.

Like I said, can mass production be done here? Sure, if a company with the resources decided to do it, but so far, no such company seems to exist. Fossil and Shinola seem content to outsource most of their production, and in the case of Shinola, only do a small amount of assembly here in the USA. The fact that one company is making two components here doesn't prove it's "possible", it only proves how nearly impossible it is. If it was anywhere near *feasible*, everyone would already be doing it.

Even if it was just "a challenge"...no one seems to be gearing up to tackle it. It's more than just a challenge. You're talking about re-building a complex eco-system of diverse vendors across multiple disciplines, in a place where that eco-system has been dead for nigh on 50 years, and all the knowledge has migrated elsewhere.

The movement is the single most expensive component in most mechanical watches. The case is a valuable component, but not the most valuable, and not something people care about enough for any company to make "cases made in the USA" a big selling point. It certainly didn't work for Niall, and from what I've seen, they got a ton more press coverage than Vero has gotten to date.

The problem was that Nialls were a $600 watch being sold for $3000, with no "heritage" or luxury brand pedigree. The market reaction to all the "made in the USA" stuff was a collective *yawn*.

I would argue that the one component that matters most is the movement. If there was an American made movement, even if all the other parts were made somewhere else, and it was widely available for wholesale use, so brands like mine could use it, that would be remarkable, and noteworthy. Talking about anything else just doesn't raise the market's pulse, in my observation.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I want an RGM at some point. That cockpit-clock-looking one (801-A) is rad (although probably too big for me-42mm and long-looking lugs). And makes me think of Pennsylvania. Sometimes that's all it takes for me: an emotional connection.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ike2 said:


> Gorgeous watch. Congrats!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks! Just came in about an hour ago. I know Hodinkee gets a lot of crap, but they shipped Fedex overnight for free (and not in a small box), and included their own nicely finished box complete with a quite lovely travel case, so credit to them on that. Happily the crown feel is about a billion times better than the early ZO9204 I had.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> The problem was that Nialls were a $600 watch being sold for $3000, with no "heritage" or luxury brand pedigree. The market reaction to all the "made in the USA" stuff was a collective *yawn*.


I think that's probably true across a lot of industries, and it seems very difficult to live up to the "Made In The US" stamp, and is it ultimately worth it if you're trying to run a successful business? The company Schiit Audio for example crows that "the vast majority of the total production cost-chassis, boards, transformers, assembly, etc-goes to US companies manufacturing in the US. Our chassis are made minutes from our facility. Our PCBs are done just over the hill from us, or done in NorCal. Our transformers are also made in California."

At the price points they sell at doing that much in the US is highly unusual, typically the entire production would be outsourced to the far East. They still can't claim "Made In The US" though (all of those Nichicons are from Japan, for example) and have to use "designed and assembled," and I'm not sure how much people ultimately care where their production is vs. their competitors.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> 6. Just my observation, but it seems like the industry as a whole has seen a slowdown in sales this year. Many brands are sitting on too much inventory to think about raising prices, and may have slowed down on production.


On a separate topic, any thoughts on why this is? I've bought a lot fewer watches this year, mostly because I just have too many and am no good at getting rid of them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> On a separate topic, any thoughts on why this is? I've bought a lot fewer watches this year, mostly because I just have too many and am no good at getting rid of them.


Doesn't seem like a separate topic to me, but I'll take the opportunity to change course and go down a different path (and for that, I thank you)...

To answer your question, no, I don't know, at least not for certain, but I've spent a good bit of time ransacking my brain and the internet recently, trying to come up with an answer. Here's a rundown of what paths I've run down, in no particular order:

1. Global economy in a rut?

Meh, not really.

For the most part, it seems like the global economy is doing well enough, at least on the surface. There may be some slower sales in HK due to the protests, some slower sales in places like Canada due to a less than favorable currency exchange rate, and slower sales in places dealing with localized uncertainty (I'm looking at the UK, and Brexit), but 2/3 of my business is still in the USA, still the world's largest consumer market (for now, and not by a big margin, thanks to China's growth), and the USA economy seems to be chugging along.

2. Retail Apocalypse Now?

The term "retail apocalypse" has been a buzzword among retail industry analysts for some years now. I think most of the pain was supposed to be felt by bricks-and-mortar stores, as consumers shift more of their shopping online.

My seat-of-the-pants impression is that a lot of the weaker retail players have indeed been culled from the herd. But increased competition online has made ecommerce more challenging, and, surprisingly, there seems to be something of a resurgence in bricks-and-mortar, as some stores in some markets step up their game, to make for a more inviting and rewarding shopping experience, and landlords in some places are holding rents down in the face of a soft property market.

Unrelated to watches example - Home Depot looked like it was going to put mom-and-pop hardware stores out of business. But, there's a chain of small "Do it Best" stores, which are crushing Home Depot when it comes to in-store experience, which in turn leads to increased customer loyalty.

I've been blown away by my DIB experience, enough that I made it a point to ask someone there how many people they had working during that shift. We're talking about a small store, and they had 9 people working at that time. Their staff-per-square-foot ratio must dwarf Home Depot's.

Even if they're not selling as many, if any big-ticket items (like washing machines), I think their prices on most other small items are higher. I don't think many people are as price sensitive when it comes to grabbing $40-$50 worth of doo-dads for the house, and they're probably doing more revenue per square foot than HD is, so it's a winning strategy, I think.

If we look at what most watch brands and retailers are doing, I think there's an unfortunate reality that too many are oblivious to the concept of "experience" for the consumer, but they're not ALL oblivious. I wonder how much of the general slowness is due to the industry just being slow to realize that consumers want more than just a product.

All of which is a long way of saying that I don't think the "retail apocalypse" explains the slow year for the watch industry as a whole, mostly because it seems like something with an impact that would be felt gradually over time, not all at once.

3. Decreased demand as part of a longer (as in, decades-long) trend, just catching up to us now?

Meh, not really.

Despite the widespread notion that "most people don't even wear a watch anymore" (which is probably true, as far as it goes), that doesn't equate to the equally widespread (and probably untrue) corollary that *FEWER* people are buying watches every year. That doesn't logically follow, and isn't borne out by the data, at least not from what I can see.

It appears to me that the portion of global population which likes wearing a watch, while small, is stable, if not growing at a modest rate. An improving world economy would seem likely to stimulate the growth of that portion, at least somewhat, and I'd think the growth in demand would be seen across most, if not all price bands, but particularly in the lower price bands, since more people at the lower income levels would be helped by widespread increases in prosperity. Even if the income and wealth gap is growing (which it seems to be), the people on the wrong side of that gap are still seeing their lot in life improve, generally.

4. Some unforeseen fly in the ointment, like a sudden glut of new product being dumped on the gray market?

Definitely not that, specifically.

At most, the only "black swan" type of event I can see is the apparent moves by Swatch Group to cut off supply of ETA movements. Earlier this year, I was expecting to see a bigger impact, but judging from the general volume of noise in the market, I'm really not seeing it having much of an effect on most small brands. They're still producing new products, they're just using alternative movements.

If there has been some impact, in fewer ETA-equipped watches being available, I would have expected that to benefit a lot of other brands, but that doesn't seem to be happening. Everyone I talk to, both brand owners and store owners, seems to be seeing and reporting the same thing, just a general slowness, particularly when you contrast to how well the year started, which, at least for me and my retailers, was really strong.

5. Everyone's just getting bored of it all....

Was it just me, or have the big shows like Basel been getting more and more mundane with each passing year? With very few exceptions, was there just nothing worth talking about at this year's show, and was that not unsurprising for most of us?

On the one hand, what happens in Basel wouldn't seem to have a big, direct impact on my business, because I'm not doing anything related to or because of Basel. On the other hand, maybe brands like mine enjoy some rising tide effect when the big boys are splashing around, making waves at Basel.

Likewise, I've seen what I think are some interesting projects from other brands lately, but it also seems like there's a growing discontent with crowd-funding sites like Kickstarter, and my general impression is that there are so many new projects being started that people are either becoming jaded, or their attention is becoming too divided, or maybe some combination thereof. It seems like I'm seeing a higher failure rate in otherwise solid projects lately.

In general, watch geeks get excited by the new. I just can't tell if there hasn't been enough new worth getting excited about, or there's just been way too much of the new for any of it to get enough attention.

Related to much, if not all of the above...

That lunch I had with my attorney and his partner last week was a bit of a personal shot-in-the-arm. It made me realize there's a HUGE number of potential customers most of the industry just isn't reaching, because these guys aren't going online to talk watches, nor is the AD network dense enough or welcoming enough to entice them in. I think the industry is at or near a crossroads, where we need to radically re-make how we connect with customers.

The outsized reaction I got out of spending time face-to-face with two guys across the table got me thinking about how that sort of experience could be replicated, and scaled up to make it more efficient. I'm thinking about maybe trying to organize some mini-GTG's in the future, if I can figure out how to do that within a modest budget.


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Weiss watch company says they manufacture and assemble their Cal 1003 hand wind movement in Los Angeles. Not sure exactly what that means but they make a nice looking field watch out of my price range. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bktaper said:


> Weiss watch company says they manufacture and assemble their Cal 1003 hand wind movement in Los Angeles. Not sure exactly what that means but they make a nice looking field watch out of my price range.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Have you been there, to see the shop, with your own eyes?


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Doesn't seem like a separate topic to me, but I'll take the opportunity to change course and go down a different path (and for that, I thank you)...
> 
> To answer your question, no, I don't know, at least not for certain, but I've spent a good bit of time ransacking my brain and the internet recently, trying to come up with an answer. Here's a rundown of what paths I've run down, in no particular order:
> 
> ...


Your last point about the customer experience, from the outside is exactly what Nodus has done since they came on the scene.

Nodus has made a point (more so than other micro brands) to create customer engagement through social media (daily posting, fan give aways, podcasts) and also doing world tours at mini gtgs.

I think it's starting to pay dividends as I'm now routinely seeing them pop up in different WUS discussions.

I'd say they would be a good one to follow and glean some take aways on things you could integrate into your business model that makes sense.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

ryan850 said:


> Your last point about the customer experience, from the outside is exactly what Nodus has done since they came on the scene.
> 
> Nodus has made a point (more so than other micro brands) to create customer engagement through social media (daily posting, fan give aways, podcasts) and also doing world tours at mini gtgs.
> 
> ...


Doc sponsors multiple GTG, posts daily and has a popular podcast. Have you seen it?


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Yes Ive listened to a couple of episodes. I like it.

I wasn't implying that doc isn't do things well. More the fact that Nodus has also done a great job and if there is any additional things that could learned from others business models, Nodus would be one suggestion.

Its always good to keep learning. One of the reasons why I got into watches. I pick up different things and nerd out on them. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I've even looked at throwing a chrono atop that pile of complications (e.g., Sinn has one), but then you're talking basketball player height on the side (e.g., that Sinn), or else quartz (e.g., Seiko Flightmaster but it's busy like a Navitimer) or a price beyond my comfort zone (can't think of a good example right now-maybe a Navitimer GMT).
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not necessarily. With Valjoux based chronos yes, but ETA 2894-2 based chronos can be made quite thin, without costing Zenith money. Farer's are a prime example. The beautiful Lander chrono for example is only about 1mm thicker than an NTH sub.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Not necessarily. With Valjoux based chronos yes, but ETA 2894-2 based chronos can be made quite thin, without costing Zenith money. Farer's are a prime example. The beautiful Lander chrono for example is only about 1mm thicker than an NTH sub.
> 
> [/ATTACH=CONFIG]14481123[/ATTACH]


Yep, I have a Speedmaster Reduced (ETA with piggy back chrono module), which is quite thin.

I suppose a chrono module could probably be piggy backed on an ETA date/GMT movement-I just haven't come across such a setup yet (not saying one doesn't exist, just can't bring one to mind at the moment).

(I had been envisioning date + GMT + chrono in that prior post.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> Your last point about the customer experience, from the outside is exactly what Nodus has done since they came on the scene.
> 
> Nodus has made a point (more so than other micro brands) to create customer engagement through social media (daily posting, fan give aways, podcasts) and also doing world tours at mini gtgs.
> 
> ...





yankeexpress said:


> Doc sponsors multiple GTG, posts daily and has a popular podcast. Have you seen it?





ryan850 said:


> Yes Ive listened to a couple of episodes. I like it.
> 
> I wasn't implying that doc isn't do things well. More the fact that Nodus has also done a great job and if there is any additional things that could learned from others business models, Nodus would be one suggestion.
> 
> ...


Wes and Cullen do a great job with online and real-world engagement, for sure. I'm certain that much of it comes naturally to them, having grown up in the internet age, whereas I didn't. There's nothing to be taken away from them on that front.

I wouldn't want to suggest they modeled what they're doing after me, or took their cue from me. I vaguely recall telling Wes I thought their blog was something they should keep doing, but after they were already doing it. I somewhat recall Wes and Cullen telling me before they launched Nodus that they planned to engage online as much as they saw me doing, or that they admired me for that, or something to that effect. If they were BS'ing me, it worked, because I liked them instantly.

I've been organizing GTG's here in Philly going back 6 years. I've been going to GTG's in DC/Baltimore and NY about as long. I've been to GTG's as far north as CT, and as far south as Atlanta. In conjunction with Hong Kong Ed, I organized not one, but two meetups in HK, and make it a point to attend every GTG I can get to.

I publicly (and privately) laid down a challenge to other brand owners, to get out to GTG's more than they were. From what I can see, Wes and Cullen are the only two guys who see the value in that as much as I do, and I tip my hat to them, for really exceeding what I was already doing with their road-trip. That was big and bold, and I like that they went big and bold. They came to the NY GTG, all the way from LA. That's farther than I've traveled, so...they got me there.

I'm the lead sponsor for District Time, and I've been a vocal ambassador for the event, in an effort to get other brands to attend. Last year, Chip from Aevig and Michael from Draken made the trip from overseas because I gave them my word it would be worth it.

I sponsor the Diver's Watches Group on FB. I've been a forum sponsor. I sponsor a watchmaking school.

I blog.

I've got over 20k posts here on this forum. Show me the brand owner who's done more-or-less annual industry insights/prediction threads, has or had a recurring advice series ("Ask Doc"), or has done the AMAs ("ask me anything") that I have. Show me the brand with consecutive, epic-length threads, where the brand owner is in there, responding, every day, and the thread is always on the first page, due to the blistering pace of activity.

I have a FB group for NTH. I'm active in a handful of others, active enough that you can't miss me.

We post to IG three times per day, where we're closing in on 25k followers.

I've got a series on YouTube, and I've been an occasional guest on the Hour Time podcast.

I've been interviewed several times, by several blogs.

I've done live-streaming videos from inside factories in China, and on the streets of Hong Kong, and Philadelphia.

I did a cooking show for crying out loud.

I'm not sure there's a brand owner out there who can lay claim to engaging with the community more than I have in the time I've been doing it, across all channels, and very few who can credibly say they've come even remotely close to racking up the raw numbers I have, all-in, across all channels, in the time I've been doing it.

But, maybe I'm not doing enough, which was the point I was making, because I feel like there's still a group of non-online watch geeks we're not reaching, as a group, not just me as one brand owner. That's the next frontier, I think, and I want to be first to colonize it, if I can figure out how.

As far as the online watch geeks go, I think I've done as much to engage with them as anyone, and a ton more than most everyone.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Gada is open to so much interpretation. Personally I would go with a diver. Of my current flock it would be my Oceanking but I have many that would fit the bill. I think divers fit the bill more than anything. They can be dressed up or down better than other watches. And I just love seeing a bezel on my watch









Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Yep, I have a Speedmaster Reduced (ETA with piggy back chrono module), which is quite thin.
> 
> I suppose a chrono module could probably be piggy backed on an ETA date/GMT movement-I just haven't come across such a setup yet (not saying one doesn't exist, just can't bring one to mind at the moment).
> 
> ...


Something like this?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Yep, I have a Speedmaster Reduced (ETA with piggy back chrono module), which is quite thin.
> 
> I suppose a chrono module could probably be piggy backed on an ETA date/GMT movement-I just haven't come across such a setup yet (not saying one doesn't exist, just can't bring one to mind at the moment).
> 
> (I had been envisioning date + GMT + chrono in that prior post.)


Bulova Telc grey dial Accu-Swiss chrono-GMT 63b187












Originally Posted by hifi_hound

"For all those Bulova AccuSwiss fans out there, this one is quite unique and limited to 50 pieces. It is the Bulova Telc GMT Flyback Chronograph SE. I purchased this watch over a year ago on Amazon when it dropped below $900.00. It was a lot to pay for a Bulova, but I loved the watch. None of the descriptions on any of the sites I could find mentioned the movement, or the fact that they are limited to 50 total pieces. Yes, they are numbered 1/49, 18/49 etc. I contacted Bulova support, and found out the movement is an *ETA 2893-A2 GMT, with a Dubois Depraz Flyback Chronograph module. [53 jewels] *I'm surprised these haven't sold out yet, but I think that is because nobody bothered to ask Bulova about the movement and limited nature of the watch etc. I noticed the price never dropped below what I paid for mine, until just recently. Retail on these was $3,700. I think it is a pretty unique movement for this Special Edition Bulova. Now, here's the nice part, there are 2 available on Amazon through the third party seller "PrimeDeals Online" for $677.49. They have 96% positive reviews with over 39,000 ratings, so they are probably a safe bet."

Paid $595 new, 50 of each exist


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

docvail said:


> Have you been there, to see the shop, with your own eyes?


No I have not. I did enjoy the Watch and Listen podcast the owner cohosted for awhile. He seemed pretty knowledgeable about watches.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bktaper said:


> No I have not. I did enjoy the Watch and Listen podcast the owner cohosted for awhile. He seemed pretty knowledgeable about watches.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No doubt he is, as a trained watchmaker.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I thought the bezel-less NTH subs hwa posted up (modded of course) looked like a pretty good shot at a GADA watch, much like the Rolex Explorer. 

Me? I'm a diver guy, my Nacken fills that role just fine. I had occasion to fly out to the east coast and wear my dress uniform and the Nacken was the only watch I brought and wore. I thought it went just fine with jeans and flip flops on the plane to under the cuff of my uniform coat at the function I attended.

And when I got back to Cali I didn't even have to change my watch before I went surfing, LOL.


----------



## sobwanhoser (Feb 8, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> i could be wrong i will withdraw


Oh come on....





I didn't even get the popcorn into the microwave:-d


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Something like this?
> 
> [/ATTACH=CONFIG]14481425[/ATTACH]





yankeexpress said:


> Bulova Telc grey dial Accu-Swiss chrono-GMT 63b187
> 
> [/img]https://i.postimg.cc/8cNzTsMs/7-F78-C291-F605-4-A49-AFFE-218-FD4-E43-FDA.jpg[/img]
> 
> ...


Yep, both cool, but not for me due to one reason or another (price, size, design, etc.). Cool to know it can be done with a GMT ETA though.

Sinn has several of these "perfect trifecta of complications to me" watches too.

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...hUKEwjh4Y3uu9nkAhXyYN8KHfSDBNcQ4dUDCAc&uact=5

Of the options, it was the 38.5mm 356 PILOT UTC that spoke to me most, although it's a bit tall at 15.5mm (I of course understand given all that's packed in there).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I prefer MMA to boxing, if we're doing that.

Fastest knockout in UFC history (at least officially, at 5 seconds), Jorge "Game Bred" Masvidal, flying knee on Olympic wrestler (and epic $hlt-talker) Ben Askren...






Unofficially, elite, world-class kickboxer Duane "Bang" Ludwig, last one in this top 10 video. Commentator Joe Rogan counts it off in 4 seconds, but apparently the official time was 6 seconds.






Maybe not as flashy as a flying knee, but if you're into the "sweet science", that side-step/straight-cross he pulled off there was a thing of pure beauty.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Meanwhile, in watch news, Tikuna visiting @hwa labs

Hmmm. What sort of trouble should I cook up here?









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

hwa said:


> Meanwhile, in watch news, Tikuna visiting @hwa labs
> 
> Hmmm. What sort of trouble should I cook up here?
> 
> ...


It's quite nice the way it is, although i like it on the 3 link bracelete more than the beads of rice. Throw it on some leather, maybe canvas?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

hwa said:


> Meanwhile, in watch news, Tikuna visiting @hwa labs
> 
> Hmmm. What sort of trouble should I cook up here?
> 
> ...


It's quite nice the way it is, although i like it on the 3 link bracelete more than the beads of rice. Throw it on some leather, maybe canvas?


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> I feel like there's still a group of non-online watch geeks we're not reaching


This isn't the dial-up days... Who are these illusive non-online people, in the market for a non-smart, non-luxury, non-cheapo, non-hipster watch?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

...









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

RPDK said:


> This isn't the dial-up days... Who are these illusive non-online people, in the market for a non-smart, non-luxury, non-cheapo, non-hipster watch?


There can't be many. I wonder what the apple watch to mechanical watch ratio is in the wild these days.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> There can't be many. I wonder what the apple watch to mechanical watch ratio is in the wild these days.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I own a smart watch, and I still don't get the appeal. I bought it mainly as a glorified HR monitor and workout timer, and that's the only time I ever wear it. If a mechanical watch is having a fireplace in your living room, a smart watch is like playing a screen saver of a fireplace on your TV. I can make the dial look like a Lange, but it's still just a screen. The always-on display isn't bright enough to work outdoors, and you can't just casually rotate your wrist to check the time because that's not enough movement for the accelerometer/gryoscope to register. It's annoying. It also has about the same power reserve as a mechanical watch, but gets no charge from movement and can't be wound, so you have to remember to plug it in every night.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Nacken, sans umlat










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RPDK said:


> This isn't the dial-up days... Who are these illusive non-online people, in the market for a non-smart, non-luxury, non-cheapo, non-hipster watch?


Potentially fantastic customers, who are damned difficult to reach effectively.

Traditional advertising, like print ads in magazines, aren't likely to have a high enough ROI. Rule out all old-school ad mediums, like TV, Radio, billboards, etc.

Digital ads, for as much as businesses spend on them, don't really work in this space, either. The ROI just isn't there.

They're not joining forums, or watch-groups on Facebook. They're not checking the #watchfam hashtag on Instagram to see what other watch geeks are showing off today.

They're probably not watching reviews on YouTube, listening to podcasts, or reading blogs.

The guy I was introduced to last week, Dave, is the archetype - he has the means, and the interest in getting some "nice" pieces, but neither the time nor the desire to get sucked into the world of watch geekery. Left to his own devices, he might get sucked into buying a Tag Carrera or an Oris at whatever AD he walks into, but, if I can get to him first, would be a great customer for me.

Don't know if you caught that thread I started, with the list I sent him, but that set off a frenzy of emails between us, with my friend who introduced us dragged along for the ride. This was the last I received:









I only met this guy by way of a personal introduction. Otherwise, our paths would have never crossed. It drives home a point Marc from Long Island watch once made to me, "the market is bigger than the forums."

It's a big world out there. I'm thinking of ways to make it smaller.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Nacken, sans umlat
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In less time than it took you to type "sans", you could have long-held the U on your mobile keyboard, and had the umlaut.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> In less time than it took you to type "sans", you could have long-held the U on your mobile keyboard, and had the umlaut.


Well well, aren't we fancy with the mobile keyboard this morning.

Thanks for enhancing my ability to text people re: metal bands

Ü 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Test: 
Scorpène
Motörhead
Crüe

Sweet. Thanks, Doc!


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> Potentially fantastic customers, who are damned difficult to reach effectively.


I reacted mostly due to the use of "watch geek". What you describe there sounds just as much like, well regular healthy people. 

We all know them. Members of the real outside world, away from the toxic cesspool that is the majority of public forums and social media.

Where do "these" people turn for assistance and inspiration? If a product isn't in the boutiques they or their spouse frequent.

It was easy in the old days, just get someone to climb a mountain with your watch, go to the moon, or down to the deepest of seas.

Today... sheesh. Have you thought about asking PewDiePie to wear one? I'm sure the collateral damage will reach your intended audience.

Oh damn, the normies of the house are back. Have to get off the internet 

Best of luck, with planting that seed - or casting the hook. Whichever way you look at it.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

[email protected]äcken.

¡Hey cööĺ!

Thänks Đöc!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

äwęšømê


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Löl. It makes my heart happy to see everyone pile on Doc for his pedantic mobile keyboard skills.

I also caught your correct spelling of umlaut above.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## devilsbite (Feb 19, 2015)

RPDK said:


> This isn't the dial-up days... Who are these illusive non-online people, in the market for a non-smart, non-luxury, non-cheapo, non-hipster watch?


This describes my old boss, the Sales Manager for a Lincoln dealership, who's 15 year old watch broke and wanted to know if you could get a decent watch for $150 or under.

He's not into social media but looks at Facebook for family stuff and mostly browsed the news online during downtime. I put together an epic email like Doc's but focused on <$200 dress watches and how to buy them for that price. He wound up with a Bulova Day-Date homage purchased at Kohles for ~$30 more than online so he could see it first.

While some of this is due to age, he's mid fifties, I think most online folks would be amazed how many people don't have a SM presence.

The majority of my clients where virtual ghosts online beyond any professional information.

I think Doc's on to something. Unfortunately it's a whisp of recognizing a market with no roadmap to reaching it. I sincerely hope he continues to chew on this publicly, I'll be listening.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

devilsbite said:


> This describes my old boss, the Sales Manager for a Lincoln dealership, who's 15 year old watch broke and wanted to know if you could get a decent watch for $150 or under.
> 
> He's not into social media but looks at Facebook for family stuff and mostly browsed the news online during downtime. I put together an epic email like Doc's but focused on <$200 dress watches and how to buy them for that price. He wound up with a Bulova Day-Date homage purchased at Kohles for ~$30 more than online so he could see it first.


I made the same type of epic email/list for a buddy several months ago who wanted a "nice looking dressy/kind of sporty" watch for "$500-$800". I had all sorts of great suggestions and told him I would make sure he got the best deal once he picked one. I even gave him ways to get 2 great watches for $800 (every day and dressy). He then "got a $300 Tissot for $100" while in UAE because it was such a deal, but didn't send me a pic of it and then gave it to his teenage son. He STILL has not bought a watch for himself. All that exercise did was confirm to him that his buddy is nuts.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Löl. It makes my heart happy to see everyone pile on Doc for his pedantic mobile keyboard skills.
> 
> I also caught your correct spelling of umlaut above.
> 
> ...


Only a pedant would make sure he correctly spelled "umlaut".


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> Test:
> Scorpène
> Motörhead
> Crüe
> ...


Not nearly as easy on a Chromebook, but it can be done.

Scorpène.

Or maybe I'll just start posting from my phone. Not.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Only a pedant would make sure he correctly spelled "umlaut".












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Germanic irony = there's no umlaut in "umlaut".

They had TWO opportunities there...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Germanic irony = there's no umlaut in "umlaut".
> 
> They had TWO opportunities there...


There's an opportunity yet for a newly forming metal band looking to include the word "umlaut" in their band name and also stylize it.

See bottom left:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This will sound weird. But I swear that looks just like my mother's hand writing. I don't think I've ever given anyone's hand writing a second thought and don't know why I even noticed. But I'll be darned if you couldn't be her hand writing doppelgänger. But with cooler watches.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> This will sound weird. But I swear that looks just like my mother's hand writing.  I don't think I've ever given anyone's hand writing a second thought and don't know why I even noticed. But I'll be darned if you couldn't be her hand writing doppelgänger. But with cooler watches.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll take it, but . . .










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I'll take it, but . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dear Mr. Garrison,

Please excuse 3WR from class today. He has a baseball game, errrr, an all day doctor's appointment to attend.

Thanks,
ck2k01


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

While I'm here:


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Cerberus today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

devilsbite said:


> This describes my old boss, the Sales Manager for a Lincoln dealership, who's 15 year old watch broke and wanted to know if you could get a decent watch for $150 or under.
> 
> He's not into social media but looks at Facebook for family stuff and mostly browsed the news online during downtime. I put together an epic email like Doc's but focused on <$200 dress watches and how to buy them for that price. He wound up with a Bulova Day-Date homage purchased at Kohles for ~$30 more than online so he could see it first.
> 
> ...


Worn & Wound Wind-Up is held in a busy shopping area, and their space is fronted by floor to ceiling glass walls. The event attracts a lot of people who just happen to be in the building. It's not all watch geeks who made the pilgrimage to be there. The crowds are huge.

District Time is held in a bustling part of DC, where the foot traffic might generate some visits from passersby. But The Time Bum tells me that very few if any people coming in just happened to get curious as they walked by. Most, if not all attendees are WIS who planned to be there. The crowds are not nearly as huge.

Maybe this is sour grapes on my part, since I've never been invited to Wind-Up, but I've told myself I'd rather have 500 people who are into watches stop by to have a real conversation with me, than have 5,000 people who just wandered in off the street stand there jaw-jacking all day.

But, either way, those events require significant investments of time, energy and money to pull off. And, I don't think either is very good at bringing out the sort of guys the industry isn't effectively reaching.

The Nodus guys did that road trip, but there again - all the promotion was aimed at WIS. When we coordinate our local GTGs, we promote them on social media - to other WIS. We're still not capturing the guys like Dave.

Back when I was a financial advisor, I'd attend 2-3 local networking events each month. Once I got out of that game, I stopped. I haven't networked locally in more than a dozen years. My friend Chris, who introduced me to Dave, is a contact I made way back in those days. I'm just sitting here scratching my head, wondering who else I stayed in contact with, locally, who may also be able to put together a casual meetup of guys who are interested in watches, but not already hanging around talking watches online.

I'm working on some ideas, brainstorming how to bring guys like Dave out into the light.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

For a while I wanted to get something together in the DFW area. As it's a huge hub and home to Timeless Luxury Watches I worked with them to do a GTG twice a year. At the peak we had about 75 people attend but it was a lot of time and energy spent and, with my own job and family to take care of, eventually it just dropped off. I considered looking into a real Wind-up type event but I just don't think the interest is there in DFW and I doubt that brands would travel to Texas for it. A shame but I think these events will be limited to the Northeast/west for the foreseeable future.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

The strangely named LA micro lux is coming to Chicago next month. They have a few brands signed on. Not sure what the event will really entail. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## fiskadoro (Sep 2, 2015)

JLS36 said:


> The strangely named LA micro lux is coming to Chicago next month. They have a few brands signed on. Not sure what the event will really entail.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Thanks for mentioning this. As a Chicago native, I may have to check it out. Looks like they've got Oris, Monta, Zelos, and plenty of others... but not sure if the actual people behind the brands will be there of course.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> In less time than it took you to type "sans", you could have long-held the U on your mobile keyboard, and had the umlaut.


Hey, neat trick! Let me try that on my desktop PC!

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

W̡̬̥̙̘e̬̙͍̯̮͈l҉͉͙̰̬̭ḽ̲̤͎͎͕, ̫̤̤̼̠͉̬t̢̙̹̳̬̝̤h̥̺͓̟̖a̢t̸͔ ̞͜d̡͉͎̻̯i͏̳͚̲͇̹̲d͏͓͔͍̱n̤̼̬͈͍̞̥'͚t͈͙͙̯̺̥ ͙̬̺̮w̱͓̙̘o̙̗͎̤̖r̹̠̝͙̘k̴̮̞̗̤̥.͈͔͇̮̤͓̺.̺̮̪̝͕̲.̯̠̖̜̜̘̼


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

MaxIcon said:


> Hey, neat trick! Let me try that on my desktop PC!
> 
> uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
> 
> W̡̬̥̙̘e̬̙͍̯̮͈l҉͉͙̰̬̭ḽ̲̤͎͎͕, ̫̤̤̼̠͉̬t̢̙̹̳̬̝̤h̥̺͓̟̖a̢t̸͔ ̞͜d̡͉͎̻̯i͏̳͚̲͇̹̲d͏͓͔͍̱n̤̼̬͈͍̞̥'͚t͈͙͙̯̺̥ ͙̬̺̮w̱͓̙̘o̙̗͎̤̖r̹̠̝͙̘k̴̮̞̗̤̥.͈͔͇̮̤͓̺.̺̮̪̝͕̲.̯̠̖̜̜̘̼


You can do the same thing on a regular computer by using alt codes. For instance, hold down the alt key and type 0252, gives you a ü. Google "alt codes" to see the whole list.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> For a while I wanted to get something together in the DFW area. As it's a huge hub and home to Timeless Luxury Watches I worked with them to do a GTG twice a year. At the peak we had about 75 people attend but it was a lot of time and energy spent and, with my own job and family to take care of, eventually it just dropped off. I considered looking into a real Wind-up type event but I just don't think the interest is there in DFW and I doubt that brands would travel to Texas for it. A shame but I think these events will be limited to the Northeast/west for the foreseeable future.





JLS36 said:


> The strangely named LA micro lux is coming to Chicago next month. They have a few brands signed on. Not sure what the event will really entail.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


There again, these events are aimed directly at WIS, and predominantly promoted in the venues where WIS congregate - on forums, in FB groups, via Instagam etc. Just like Red Bar meetings.

FWIW, LA Microlux is called that because it started in LA. It's A Blog To Watch's answer to Worn & Wound Wind-Up, it seems. I think W&W threw down the gauntlet when they went west to do a Wind-up in San Francisco. Not to be outdone, LA Microlux is going to Chicago.

I don't mean to sound critical of any of them. They're all fun events, which hopefully bring out the local WIS, but for me, as a brand owner who is already doing all that I do to engage with my target customer base, the ROI makes these events hard to rationalize. I know their costs, and I know the likely revenue to be generated by being there. The math rarely adds up well enough for me to think it's worth it.

Beyond the fact that they actually invite me to be there, District Time works better for me. It's a two-hour drive for me, and I have friends in the area, both among the WIS, and old college friends. If I don't want to stay in a hotel, I have a half dozen people who'll let me crash with them. The costs for District Time are much lower than the other shows, so low I've opted to be the lead sponsor the last two years, increasing the value of the event for NTH. And, I like that the crowds, while smaller, are more engaged. Guys who stop by will routinely say they made the trip to see NTH watches, meet me, etc. They hang out a while, and we connect.

But, even with all that, none of that is what I'm talking about. You're not getting Dave or his type to the DFW GTG or LA Microlux. I invited him to District Time, but he's tied up with family stuff that weekend, a kid's soccer tournament, I think. He might consider driving up to NY for Wind-Up, but, A) I won't be there, nor will many of the brands I'd recommend to him, and B) it's not the sort of more intimate gathering that will create the instant bond between brand and customer that we created spending an hour having lunch together.

I didn't even pay for lunch. My lawyer Chris picked up the check. But, if I did, I think it was less than $100. I think exhibiting at Wind-Up is going to total $10k, by the time you add up what W&W charges, travel costs, hotel, meals, parking, paying someone to be there to work the table with me, etc.

$10k. That's a lot of coin. There's no way we'd sell enough watches by being at that event to make that investment worth it. It's not an efficient use of funds for a business like mine.

I flew round-trip to Atlanta for $500. I stayed with a friend. CMA22 picked me up for the Atlanta GTG. Dmjonez drove me to the airport after. The three of us met up early to grab lunch with UVALaw. At that GTG, I probably met 50 WIS, including a blogger, a WUS moderator, and a bunch of F71 regulars I've "known" for years, but never met in person, like Ten-ten and 2manywatchs. For many of them, that was the first opportunity they had to put hands on an NTH.

It cost me $10/person to put my product into my target customer's hands in Atlanta. That's not bad. When we do our local GTG's, it's next to nothing. I might spend $100, and we'll have 40-50 guys show up. I took a train up to the Connecticut GTG. That might have been $200, if that. I drove to the Diver's Watches GTG in NY. Gas, tolls and parking might have been $200, and I think I spent $150 for a room.

For what I'd spend being at Wind-up, I could fly to 20 GTG's, and probably make out better.

Still, no Dave, though.

Getting the Daves of the world to come into the tent is going to require some outside-the-box thinking. We need a good carnival barker.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> There again, these events are aimed directly at WIS, and predominantly promoted in the venues where WIS congregate - on forums, in FB groups, via Instagam etc. Just like Red Bar meetings.
> 
> FWIW, LA Microlux is called that because it started in LA. It's A Blog To Watch's answer to Worn & Wound Wind-Up, it seems. I think W&W threw down the gauntlet when they went west to do a Wind-up in San Francisco. Not to be outdone, LA Microlux is going to Chicago.
> 
> ...


10k seems outrageous, the event wouldn't pay for itself true. But would the residual exposure and fanboy atmosphe worn and wound fosters be enough? It's a really hard metric to measure. I imagine a well placed event would capture walking traffic in high population areas like stated. But most of these events I couldn't drag someone too. Watches are bigger than wus and Facebook no doubt. But I think for most start up brands we can be enough. Halios with the mentions on hodinkee has exceled. I think it's just creating a good brand and your name will find its way to consumers. I think you've done enough in that regards. Mvmt, we all mock them but that level of success has to be a goal for some of the micros around here. Also this blogger model started by hodinkee is impressive. Pretend to provide the space with a service but it's really a Trojan horse for retail. I find that sourcing real reviews and opinions of watches is harder than watching cable news. Wus is still the best place to get unadulterated opinions and pictures on watches. It's not polluted by the faux patina of reviews as the blogosphere.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

MarkND said:


> You can do the same thing on a regular computer by using alt codes. For instance, hold down the alt key and type 0252, gives you a ü. Google "alt codes" to see the whole list.


As a former assembly language code monkey, I'm familiar, but ain't nobody got time for that! I'm more disappointed that the zalgo text didn't display right. Still, it's a neat trick for phone keyboards!


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

MaxIcon said:


> ... ain't nobody got time for that!
> ...


Zackly!

Doc Savage


----------



## OhDark30 (Oct 2, 2012)

Are there clothes or lifestyle things which would give you overlap with your target moneyed non-nerd watch customers?

Thinking of the spectrum covered in something like GQ magazine which has pretty good watch articles along with the clothes, shoes and interviews with movie stars. Are there actual events that cover that range?

Also sporting things, motorsport, idk, golf?
Not so much the international stuff as quirky things like Goodwood Festival of Speed or equivalent https://www.goodwood.com/motorsport/festival-of-speed/

Not to mention shops that *curate* lifestyley things eg https://www.burrowsandhare.co.uk - there's one near me, they have watches, canvas backpacks et al. A collab, or to be carried by them

This may not be your bag at all, but there are your guys with money, actively hunting for things to buy to make them look cool


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Never mind.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> 10k seems outrageous, the event wouldn't pay for itself true. But would the residual exposure and fanboy atmosphe worn and wound fosters be enough? It's a really hard metric to measure. I imagine a well placed event would capture walking traffic in high population areas like stated. But most of these events I couldn't drag someone too. Watches are bigger than wus and Facebook no doubt. But I think for most start up brands we can be enough. Halios with the mentions on hodinkee has exceled. I think it's just creating a good brand and your name will find its way to consumers. I think you've done enough in that regards. Mvmt, we all mock them but that level of success has to be a goal for some of the micros around here. Also this blogger model started by hodinkee is impressive. Pretend to provide the space with a service but it's really a Trojan horse for retail. I find that sourcing real reviews and opinions of watches is harder than watching cable news. Wus is still the best place to get unadulterated opinions and pictures on watches. It's not polluted by the faux patina of reviews as the blogosphere.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


A mention by Hodinkee or ABTW can move the needle.

Wind-Up and LA Microlux rely on the belief that the sales at the event + long-term goodwill from those who attended (leading to future sales) justifies the expense for a brand to be there.

For some brands, that's correct, I think. For others, not so much. It depends on how many watches are sold at the event, the brand owners' expense in attending (travel, lodging, etc), the brands' alternatives for how that money would otherwise be spent, and how much penetration into the WIS market the brand has already achieved.

There are very few WIS who like affordable micros, but don't know of my brand, or do know of my brand, but aren't willing to rely on the hundreds of online reviews to make a purchase, and are holding off until they can see one in person. For me, those events don't offer the same sort of upside potential that they do for a brand with less brand awareness among WIS, fewer online reviews, less buzz, etc.

There are many factors. I spoke to RT Custer from Vortic about it. His watches are $2k, some more. For him, selling 4-5 watches at an event which cost him $3k to attend is a win. For me, with $650 watches, it's a loss. I didn't even break even, when you add my cost to attend to the production costs of what I sold. I'd have been better off staying home in that scenario.

I was once approached by a venture capital firm expressing interest in acquiring my business. They claimed to have had discussions with MVMT (prior to their acquisition by Movado). They told me MVMT, for all the revenue they generated, made no profits. They said MVMT was spending so much money on digital ads, and their customer acquisition costs were so high, that there wasn't enough profit left in the sale to drop much to their bottom line.

That probably sounds preposterous in light of the fact Movado bought MVMT for $100 million.

It's not preposterous at all. Typical CAC's on digital ads for watch brands can range from as low as $60 (and that's crushing it) to $100 or more. I'm not making these numbers up. I've compared notes with other microbrand owners, and I have the former COO of a 2-time Inc 500 fastest growing companies (it was a digital marketing agency he was running) guru on retainer. The ROI on digital ad spend just isn't there, for affordable watches. That's why NTH doesn't spend one thin dime on digital ads.

Take a $150 watch, spend $100 selling it. Even if it only cost you $25-$30 per unit to make it, your gross profit isn't much. Back out merchant processing fees, shipping, return logistics, customer support, warranty support (assuming they delivered any), your gross margins get razor-thin, and you haven't paid any of your fixed operational costs yet. You still have to pay insurance, utilities, rent, salaries, etc.

Why would Movado buy them?

My best guess - Movado saw a huge user base they were buying. Movado probably calculated that they could drop MVMT's production costs even lower, and plug them into Movado's existing and very large retail sales network. Maybe they thought they could drop the ad spend. Save some on the costs, increase the top line, fire any employees who are redundant, and roll MVMT's operations into Movado's, maybe there was a huge opportunity there.

Or, maybe Movado just didn't know what they were really buying, and were desperate. As of the 2014 World Watch Report, Movado seemed to be taking it on the chin...









Those figures from 2014 were published in 2015. Three years later, Movado bought MVMT, which reported $71 million in revenue. Buying a company for 1.5x sales sounds like a good deal...IF there's profits, or, IF you can make it profitable.

I vaguely recall reading MVMT was moving about 500,000 watches per year. That sounds right, give or take. It works out to about $142/watch. How much net profit could they have been making? Maybe $5/unit to their bottom line? If so, Movado paid 40 times earnings, which is bananas. If I had the money at the time, I would have shorted Movado's stock. That's the financial equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot, with a spear-gun, while swimming in shark-infested waters.

But what do I know? I'm just a guy who makes and sells a couple thousand watches per year. I'm not a genius CEO.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

OhDark30 said:


> Are there clothes or lifestyle things which would give you overlap with your target moneyed non-nerd watch customers?
> 
> Thinking of the spectrum covered in something like GQ magazine which has pretty good watch articles along with the clothes, shoes and interviews with movie stars. Are there actual events that cover that range?
> 
> ...


I've considered the overlap WIS seem to have with the EDC crowd, and occasionally I'll consider adding some sort of EDC products to my store, but:

A. I don't know enough about them to think I'm going to create a new original/unique EDC product, find the time to source a good vendor to make it, etc.

B. Without the above, I'd just be buying a commodity product to resell, and I don't like being a commodity seller.

Beyond that, I haven't much entertained the idea of getting my watches stocked in more diverse-offering retail stores. I've looked at it once or twice, but always end up deciding that the clothing/gear type stores won't move enough volume to make it worth the time I'd have to spend dealing with them.

My thinking is that the key isn't the product, it's the experience. Men of a certain age and with certain means tend to long for something which doesn't exist in abundance any more - the weekly retreat. Men used to go to the Elk's lodge, or whatever, and find camaraderie among other men. Today, we Netflix and chill (at home).

Guys need the occasional distraction from work, wife and kids, soccer games, etc.

WUS is a virtual Elk's Lodge (women allowed, or as the case may be, accepted). But there's something, nay, a great deal to be said for the value of a full-throated, hairy-chested, yowping celebration of our shared manliness, which can only be done in person, where the high-fives and back-slaps can be delivered the old-fashioned way, manually, not digitally.

This isn't something we're gonna hashtag and blast out on Instagram. This is gather around the campfire and roast meat on sharpened sticks $hlt about to go down.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gents (and what few ladies may be daring enough to lurk in this thread)...

The NTH website is now sold out of the models below. What inventory our retailers have is all that remains. 

- Amphion Commando (both date and no-date)

- Barracuda Blue

- Barracuda Vintage Black (no-date)

- Näcken Modern Black (no-date, with umlaut)

- Skipjack - (both date and no-date)

All models/versions we still have in stock - it's low single-digits for all of them.

We have NOTHING in production right now. We're figuring out what to do next. We've got a few things cooking.

Looking at the entire range of NTH Subs - aside from the 3 newest versions (Amphion Commando, Tikuna, and Vanguard), I doubt we'll make more of any (or at least, not many) of them before next year. 

We may not even make more of the three new models. My focus is now on what we can get into production for delivery next spring.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Bahia Burnout


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

There's a guy in a few watch groups on FB that must have as many model cars as he does watches. Seems like every day, he's posting a pic of a different combo.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> Looking at the entire range of NTH Subs - aside from the 3 newest versions (Amphion Commando, Tikuna, and Vanguard), I doubt we'll make more of any (or at least, not many) of them before next year.


If it happens that you have a couple of previous Subs models that will make it into re-production before the year ends, please include the black Scorpéne without date as one of them.

Or, is there someone willing to part with theirs?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wtma said:


> If it happens that you have a couple of previous Subs models that will make it into re-production before the year ends, please include the black Scorpéne without date as one of them.
> 
> Or, is there someone willing to part with theirs?


ME: Scorpène's are back in stock. Don't wait. Don't be the guy who asks me when we'll make more the day after they sell out.

YOU:









Seriously, they were part of our May release. There were still one or two available as recently as August. If they'd sold out instantly, I could understand, and I'd be inclined to make more, but...c'mon, where were you when they were in stock for three months?

I seriously doubt we'll make any more Subs before the end of the year. I have a pretty good idea how many are available across all our retailers. It's about enough to get us through the end of the year, maybe, but for certain, it's too many for me to rationalize ordering another 300 pieces to be assembled, for delivery in 8 weeks, especially not when I figure most brands are about to $hlt themselves for lack of sales, and will probably start their Black Friday sales on the 1st of November.

PS - ^all tongue in cheek. No offense intended. I do my best to dial in the balance of production versus demand. With a four-month production cycle, MOQ's to contend with, and the cost of production, there's no such thing as perfectly matching supply and demand when it comes to watches. Someone is always the guy who wants one after they've sold out, but that's why I say, don't wait.

We've got our numbers dialed in about as well as can be expected. I know how quickly our inventory turns, and it's about as long as it takes for us to get through one production cycle. While it's impossible to get the numbers for each SKU perfect, we're about as close to perfect balance as you can get, in the macro, when we combine all SKUs.

When we sell out of a model instantly, and someone asks when we'll make more, I get it, we sold out instantly. But when it takes 3 months...well, we had them for 3 months. That's the turnover we're seeing. Might be less, might be more, but on average, we like to move everything within 90 days of inventory being produced.

Like I say, when we get something in, if you want it, buy it, don't wait. I'm only going to order more of those SKUs which sell out instantly. Otherwise, I could wait a year, or more, before producing that version again.

You snooze, you lose, unfortunately. Set up an alert on Watch Recon, or start a WTB thread.

Those of you who have a Scorpene - now's your time to sell, if you've been thinking about it.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

It has probably been 10-15 years since I was into collecting model cars. But I went hard for many years before that. Here are some of them. I used to work in motor racing and liked to collect models of cars I'd worked on or those driven by drivers I'd worked with. Or any number of other cool road racing cars.

Color me impressed if anyone recognizes any of these. Or knows the significance of the Corvette.


----------



## EddieTheBeast (Jun 26, 2019)

3WR said:


> It has probably been 10-15 years since I was into collecting model cars. But I went hard for many years before that. Here are some of them. I used to work in motor racing and liked to collect models of cars I'd worked on or those driven by drivers I'd worked with. Or any number of other cool road racing cars.
> 
> Color me impressed if anyone recognizes any of these. Or knows the significance of the Corvette.
> 
> View attachment 14487473


Very cool car collection, which works well for watch photo backgrounds! b-) :-!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> My focus is now on what we can get into production for delivery next spring.


Scorpene with 12hr bezel...?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Those of you who have a Scorpene - now's your time to sell, if you've been thinking about it.


Data point: bought mine (black, date) used, LNIB for $500, while they were still available. This was unworn, plastic still on bracelet, crystal, and case back. Why this was not returned as unused for refund at full price (as Doc frequently wonders aloud), I don't know. But I scooped it up.

I wore it a couple months, put some scuffs and one not insignificant scratch on it, model sold out, posted it for sale @ $500, and it was gone within 5 minutes. Probably should have tried for more...


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Have you tried setting up shop in a local brewery or distillery one evening? See if that garners any interest in your brand at a local level with non-WIS. Plus you could drink while you are there. People buying expensive drinks locally may be interested in upping their watch game from a local business. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

It's Phrydae!



And, I hate acrylic crystals!


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Trying to ghost today away









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Scorpene with 12hr bezel...?


I am certain we'll make more Scorpènes soon enough, probably early next year, and when we do, I think we'll make them all with a 12-hour bezel.



mconlonx said:


> Data point: bought mine (black, date) used, LNIB for $500, while they were still available. This was unworn, plastic still on bracelet, crystal, and case back. Why this was not returned as unused for refund at full price (as Doc frequently wonders aloud), I don't know. But I scooped it up.
> 
> I wore it a couple months, put some scuffs and one not insignificant scratch on it, model sold out, posted it for sale @ $500, and it was gone within 5 minutes. Probably should have tried for more...


Maybe. Depends. Take better pics, create a better listing, have better timing - all of that can affect the price you get. But, for sure, if a watch is still available new from the manufacturer, you're unlikely to get as much as you would if it's sold out.

$500 for an unworn $650 watch is a great deal. $500 for a less than 95% condition one seems like a fair deal, given the relative popularity. I think about the insane prices I've seen for beat-to-hell Sporks or Samurais, but...Seiko, not NTH.



Bktaper said:


> Have you tried setting up shop in a local brewery or distillery one evening? See if that garners any interest in your brand at a local level with non-WIS. Plus you could drink while you are there. People buying expensive drinks locally may be interested in upping their watch game from a local business.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's sort of where my head is, find a local business which would be a good fit for hosting a small meetup, and which would mutually benefit from hosting it. Beyond the venue, I'm thinking more about the method by which we'd get people to attend.



MikeyT said:


> It's Phrydae!


Phuck yeah!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I am certain we'll make more Scorpènes soon enough, probably early next year, and when we do, I think we'll make them all with a 12-hour bezel.


Yay!


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

3WR said:


> It has probably been 10-15 years since I was into collecting model cars. But I went hard for many years before that. Here are some of them. I used to work in motor racing and liked to collect models of cars I'd worked on or those driven by drivers I'd worked with. Or any number of other cool road racing cars.
> 
> Color me impressed if anyone recognizes any of these. Or knows the significance of the Corvette.
> 
> View attachment 14487473


The Corvette is a model of the car Dale Earnhardt Sr., JR, Andy Pilgrim, and Kelly Collins raced at the Rolex 24 hours at Daytona in 2001. Am I right?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Boo









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Metallman said:


> The Corvette is a model of the car Dale Earnhardt Sr., JR, Andy Pilgrim, and Kelly Collins raced at the Rolex 24 hours at Daytona in 2001. Am I right?


Yes, indeed! The last race the elder Earnhardt survived. I was picking up my credentials for that Rolex 24 at the same time he was. I assume that's what he was doing in there. Although it seems like he might have had people to do stuff like that for him. He seemed nice. They don't all seem nice.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I’ve worn a lot of NTHs to a lot of bars. Doc, I assume it’s garnered you a lot of sales.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep Six today









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Just bought my first NTH (used). Will post a pic tomorrow. I don’t have the spring bars. Does anyone know if the Seiko “fat boy” spring bars will fit the lug holes?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Ike2 said:


> Just bought my first NTH (used). Will post a pic tomorrow. I don't have the spring bars. Does anyone know if the Seiko "fat boy" spring bars will fit the lug holes?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Even if they fit it you probably won't be able to get any straps on the watch with them. The lugs are pretty short.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

92gli said:


> Even if they fit you probably won't be able to get any straps on the watch with them. The lugs are pretty short.


They didn't fit so I used standard spring bars and wrestled valiantly for quite a while trying to put on an Uncle Seiko rubber strap but could only get half of it on. I gave up and put an old NATO on it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Looking forward to seeing which one you chose, Ike! |>


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Ike2 said:


> Just bought my first NTH (used). Will post a pic tomorrow. I don't have the spring bars. Does anyone know if the Seiko "fat boy" spring bars will fit the lug holes?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They don't, no. The lug hole width is less than 1.2mm, so seiko-style diver bar ends do not actually go into the lugs. (Some diver-style bars have rounded tips, so they might sorta catch into the lug holes, but then it's only the top of that domed end that fits, and it's an extremely loose arrangement). For the NTH subs you gotta use regular springbars.

If you need a thick bar for a seiko-like strap, you can try and find some fat-style bars with regular ends, iirc they probably exist - you may have to do a lot of ebay/aliBB searching though.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I have no idea if they’ll fit/work (haven’t tested), but Crown & Buckle sells 2.5mm Fat bars with 0.7mm standard tips. FYI.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

3WR said:


> It has probably been 10-15 years since I was into collecting model cars. But I went hard for many years before that. Here are some of them. I used to work in motor racing and liked to collect models of cars I'd worked on or those driven by drivers I'd worked with. Or any number of other cool road racing cars.
> 
> Color me impressed if anyone recognizes any of these. Or knows the significance of the Corvette.
> 
> View attachment 14487473


The 787b jumped out at me instantly! I effing love that thing! Time to actually look at the pic and see if I k ow more.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

First day out with my Swaardvis!














Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Since it's been a minute:


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ike2 said:


> First day out with my Swaardvis!
> View attachment 14493133
> View attachment 14493131
> 
> ...


Looking good.

Is that the blasted case one that had been for sale on the forum? You may have a one off of one of the already rare Zwaorowhateveryoucallit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

3WR said:


> Looking good.
> 
> Is that the blasted case one that had been for sale on the forum? You may have a one off of one of the already rare Zwaorowhateveryoucallit.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sharp eye! Indeed it is. It is therefore my first NTH and first beadblasted watch. Also, I am fairly sure it is my first watch named after a Dutch submarine. All this is very pleasing to me. And as a bonus, Doc liked my photo so presumably he is OK with the apostasy of artistically defacing his baby. :;

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Sharp eye! Indeed it is. It is therefore my first NTH and first beadblasted watch. Also, I am fairly sure it is my first watch named after a Dutch submarine. All this is very pleasing to me. And as a bonus, Doc liked my photo so presumably he is OK with the apostasy of artistically defacing his baby. :;
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Peeps can do whatever they want to a watch after they buy it. As long as I'm not asked to un-modify it later, I've no problem with it.

On the "Cool" to "WTF" scale, bead-blasting the case makes more sense than filing a flat-spot into the crown, but less sense than a hands swap.

Never really thought about this concept before, a scale for mods, but now that we're here, here's how I think I'd see it, from most to least understandable...

1. Basic parts swaps that can be reversed if desired - hands swaps, dial swaps, bezel insert swaps, dropping the whole dial/movement assembly into a different case.

2. Mods that cannot be reversed, or are not easily reversed, or can affect the water resistance, and/or may decrease your ability to sell because of relative desirability - cerakoting, bead-blasting, brushing polished surfaces, crystal swaps, case-back swaps.

3. Permanent mods which will affect the value - altering metal parts, as in filing a flat spot into the crown, boring out the lug holes, any other similar lunacy.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I still kinda want a Zwaorowhateveryoucallit. 

Anyone have a date-version not getting wrist time? PM me. |>


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Peeps can do whatever they want to a watch after they buy it. As long as I'm not asked to un-modify it later, I've no problem with it.
> 
> On the "Cool" to "WTF" scale, bead-blasting the case makes more sense than filing a flat-spot into the crown, but less sense than a hands swap.
> 
> ...


Happy to tick all the boxes!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Twehttam said:


> I still kinda want a Zwaorowhateveryoucallit.
> 
> Anyone have a date-version not getting wrist time? PM me. |>


Here is a Zwaardvis for you. The date is 1972. Not bead-blasted. 








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I'd actually be curious to know if bead blasting has a measurable impact on WR. My SKX was tested to 10ATM and did just fine, so there's nothing I'll ever need to worry about there, I don't do anything more than snorkel. Nesbit up in Seattle can do 120ATM testing, so they definitely would be able to find out. I just don't want my watch to be the potential sacrificial lamb.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Twehttam said:


> I still kinda want a Zwaorowhateveryoucallit.
> 
> Anyone have a date-version not getting wrist time? PM me. |>


Seriously, it is a very cool watch and I encourage you to find one. For me, they got the shade of orange exactly right and it works really well with the black bezel. Among others, the watch is perfect for fans of the Baltimore Orioles, Princeton U and Halloween. Also the dial and hands are nifty -the tooth/dagger indices at 12/3/6/9 and the black-outlined hands are really nice details. I think I saw Doc say in an interview clip that the design is based on vintage Heuer and Tudor models.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I'd actually be curious to know if bead blasting has a measurable impact on WR. My SKX was tested to 10ATM and did just fine, so there's nothing I'll ever need to worry about there, I don't do anything more than snorkel. Nesbit up in Seattle can do 120ATM testing, so they definitely would be able to find out. I just don't want my watch to be the potential sacrificial lamb.


If you're suggesting bead-blasting can affect WR based on what I said earlier, that's not what I said.



docvail said:


> ...2. Mods that *cannot be reversed*, *or* are not easily reversed, *or* can affect the water resistance, *and/or* may decrease your ability to sell because of relative desirability - cerakoting, bead-blasting, brushing polished surfaces, crystal swaps, case-back swaps...


Notice I said "OR", not "AND" for each of the sub-headings.

Bead-blasting would fall under the heading of "cannot be reversed" or "not easily reversed", not "can affect WR". A crystal or case-back swap might affect WR, but is more than likely easily reversed, assuming you didn't destroy or discard the original parts in the process of doing the swap.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Seriously, it is a very cool watch and I encourage you to find one. For me, they got the shade of orange exactly right and it works really well with the black bezel. Among others, the watch is perfect for fans of the Baltimore Orioles, Princeton U and Halloween. Also the dial and hands are nifty -the tooth/dagger indices at 12/3/6/9 and the black-outlined hands are really nice details. I think I saw Doc say in an interview clip that *the design is based on vintage Heuer and Tudor models*.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is a mash-up of vintage Heuer and Tudor, yes.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ike2 said:


> Sharp eye! Indeed it is. It is therefore my first NTH and first beadblasted watch. Also, I am fairly sure it is my first watch named after a Dutch submarine. All this is very pleasing to me. And as a bonus, Doc liked my photo so presumably he is OK with the apostasy of artistically defacing his baby. :;
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I learned a new word today. Thanks.











Ike2 said:


> Seriously, it is a very cool watch and I encourage you to find one. For me, they got the shade of orange exactly right and it works really well with the black bezel. Among others, the watch is perfect for fans of the Baltimore Orioles, Princeton U and Halloween. Also the dial and hands are nifty -the tooth/dagger indices at 12/3/6/9 and the black-outlined hands are really nice details. I think I saw Doc say in an interview clip that the design is based on vintage Heuer and Tudor models.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was tempted by that one. Agree wholeheartedly on the indices and the dark hands. Good grab. Enjoy it.


----------



## gsurf (May 23, 2019)

Doc,

I was reading your musings on how to reach non-WIS guys who are nonetheless likely to be interested in NTH. I was just skimming through, so forgive me if this is repetitive... but have you considered or looked into Huckberry? I have several friends who became interested in mechanical watches because Huckberry featured the Deep Blue for a while (At the time I steered them towards the SKX or Orients instead). Huckberry is probably one of the largest of classically masculine, bespoke but affordable "gear" marketplaces- but there are others like Best Made Co. and Iron and Resin that seem to do well too. Huckberry puts their marketing emails in a million inboxes- I know I'm always interested in the products they feature and have made a few purchases.

Also, what about podcast advertising? You can really narrow in on a specific demographic, and there is certainly much more bang for buck than print media, or general online advertising. I know that I am apt to consider the advertising on the podcasts I listen to; Quip toothbrushes, Duke Cannon soap, and Mack Weldon all got my business through podcasts.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gsurf said:


> Doc,
> 
> I was reading your musings on how to reach non-WIS guys who are nonetheless likely to be interested in NTH. I was just skimming through, so forgive me if this is repetitive... but have you considered or looked into Huckberry? I have several friends who became interested in mechanical watches because Huckberry featured the Deep Blue for a while (At the time I steered them towards the SKX or Orients instead). Huckberry is probably one of the largest of classically masculine, bespoke but affordable "gear" marketplaces- but there are others like Best Made Co. and Iron and Resin that seem to do well too. Huckberry puts their marketing emails in a million inboxes- I know I'm always interested in the products they feature and have made a few purchases.
> 
> Also, what about podcast advertising? You can really narrow in on a specific demographic, and there is certainly much more bang for buck than print media, or general online advertising. I know that I am apt to consider the advertising on the podcasts I listen to; Quip toothbrushes, Duke Cannon soap, and Mack Weldon all got my business through podcasts.


Yes, I've looked at Huckberry.

Maybe not always, but generally, Huckberry likes to sell watches at a discount from regular retail price.

NTH doesn't get discounted, full stop.

I don't really have any interest in dealing with anyone who doesn't think enough of NTH to sell an NTH for full price. I've no time for resellers who don't know how to sell without a discount. That's the mark of an amateur, in my opinion.

If they want to buy 20-50 pieces, with our normal wholesale terms, and work the same way our other retail partners do, we've got something to talk about. If they expect me to let them have my inventory for less, so they can sell it for less, we don't, and I don't care how many people's email addresses they have.

I haven't thought about podcast advertising, because...

A) I have no idea how many people listen to podcasts. My sense is that the numbers aren't large enough to make it worth the time I'd spend investigating it, and crafting an ad.

B) It's an auditory-only medium. You need to *SEE* a watch to want it. I'm a good story-teller, but even I'm not a good enough story teller to make you want a watch just by telling you about it.

C) I think people are increasingly ignoring paid ads and devaluing the importance of "influencer" opinions.

If you're only skimming, you may have missed some of the salient points I tried to make. I'm not trying to reach an audience which is already plugged into the Matrix. I'm trying to reach a disconnected demographic, and offer them something more experiential than transactional. I want to give those hard-to-reach guys an opportunity to get hands on with product, literally, not figuratively.

It's not going to be done via advertising.

I did a bit of brainstorming with my marketing guy last night, over drinks with our wives. We've got the start of a plan.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Another happy Zwardy owner.
Had a few NTH subs but like this one the best.










Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> A) I have no idea how many people listen to podcasts. My sense is that the numbers aren't large enough to make it worth the time I'd spend investigating it, and crafting an ad.
> 
> B) It's an auditory-only medium. You need to *SEE* a watch to want it. I'm a good story-teller, but even I'm not a good enough story teller to make you want a watch just by telling you about it.
> 
> ...


Depends on the show. Stuff You Should Know and This American Life for example have massive audiences, way bigger than plenty of prime time TV shows. The only show I regularly listen to that advertises at all is The Dollop. They do all the underwear and electric toothbrush and Blue Apron stuff, and I skip past them all. If I wanted to listen to ads, I'd put on FM radio. Even as a watch guy, I don't think I would get anything from listening to an ad about watches.

Some of the YouTube channels I watch like The Straightpipes occasionally do watch ads for Vincero. I wonder if their margins are any better than MVMT. Considering how much they advertise, I doubt it. I skip past those as well, because I know what Vinceros are. If they were talking about a micro brand selling 9015 or ETA powered watches that would be a different story, and I would pay attention to that if it's something I wasn't already aware of from watching Just One More Watch, Average Bros, Bruce Williams, or the P&C channels, or reading W&W.

Even then though, it would just be something that I would make a mental note of to look at in more detail later. They're car guys and I'm there to watch them talk about cars, not watches.


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Nice sub pic (real sub), must be tiny if that is the full crew on deck.


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

I don’t know how others feel about ads, in general, but I believe that advertising campaigns...like the ones that interrupt the podcasts I listen to...have the effect of making me LESS likely to buy a product. I know the way most ad campaigns work is not completely obvious to the receivers of the ads and that they have some effect even when you aren’t really paying attention to them. But, if I go through a mental checklist of the items I typically buy, everything from toothpaste and shampoo and food, to tools and toys, none of the brands I purchase are supported by any sort of ad campaign with the exception of the things my kids want.

The only thing that really influences my watch purchases are unsolicited appraisals of merit from (as far as I can tell) unpaid consumers who do or do not actually like the brand. There’s zero chance I’m walking into an AD that pays for a giant billboard with a GMT master on it next to the interstate. The billboards mess up my view of the city...whatever city that happens to be. That’s enough to drive me away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Nice hands


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Yup!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Yup!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sonic_driftwood said:


> I don't know how others feel about ads, in general, but I believe that advertising campaigns...like the ones that interrupt the podcasts I listen to...have the effect of making me LESS likely to buy a product. I know the way most ad campaigns work is not completely obvious to the receivers of the ads and that they have some effect even when you aren't really paying attention to them. But, if I go through a mental checklist of the items I typically buy, everything from toothpaste and shampoo and food, to tools and toys, none of the brands I purchase are supported by any sort of ad campaign with the exception of the things my kids want.
> 
> The only thing that really influences my watch purchases are unsolicited appraisals of merit from (as far as I can tell) unpaid consumers who do or do not actually like the brand. There's zero chance I'm walking into an AD that pays for a giant billboard with a GMT master on it next to the interstate. The billboards mess up my view of the city...whatever city that happens to be. That's enough to drive me away.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm the same way. In fact, I'd go a step further.

It's hard enough to get me to start watching a video or click through a social media post to read any article. When the video is interrupted with an ad, or I'm forced to close pop-up ads to read the content I came to see, I'll just exit out and do something else. Those medium are time-suck activities for the audience. They need people to become and stay entranced. Breaking the content up with an ad is like the alarm waking you from a dream.

Although, just yesterday, I bought an "as seen on TV!" product because I saw the ad. It was a pair of 16x magnifier glasses with built-in led lights. I had to laugh at (and somewhat admire, albeit, begrudgingly) the way they up-sold me, by forcing me to click through multiple offers before completing checkout. What started out as 2 pair for $20 ended up being a ~$50 transaction by the time I was done.

I think advertising has its value, but it really depends on the nature of what you're selling.

The product in the ad happened to be a perfect solution to a recurring problem I have. My eyesight isn't as good as it used to be, the lighting in my office isn't great, and I sometimes need to work with very small items, like bracelet screws. I'll keep one pair for my office, and give the other pair to Dan, if he wants them. If not, I'll just have an extra pair for when the first ones get lost or broken.

It seems like most TV ads I actually pay attention to are for those "perfect solution to a vexing problem" sorts of products. I keep wondering if I have a need for FlexSeal, or if our house could benefit from a couple outlet shelves. Maybe I need Tac Glasses, or a Tac Visor. How have I not died already from a head-on collision with a lorry coming straight out of the sunset, shrouded in glare?

A watch isn't a perfect solution to a vexing problem. Watches are man-jewelry. No one is running out to buy a watch because they see an ad.

Most big-budget watch advertising is the "lifestyle" stuff that Rolex and other luxury brands produce. For microbrands, it's usually just "here's a picture of a watch, and a link to buy it", which just doesn't work very well. In either case, it generally takes multiple exposures over time for the ad to have any impact at all.

At Microbrand University, we preach content, content, content, and engagement, engagement, engagement. This is an enthusiast-driven industry, and enthusiasts tend to get immersed in product-related content, and want to feel "connected" to a brand, the way we feel connected to people, which means the brand has to be humanized in some way. The brand has to engage, which only a human can do.

If you like watches, but you're NOT online reading blogs, watching YT videos, looking at watches on FB or IG, or discussing them on forums, then you're just a guy who likes watches, collecting them isn't your "hobby". If you don't see a difference between a corporate brand and an enthusiast brand, you're not an enthusiast.

There are a handful of outlets with a large enough reach to really move the needle. Those include the big blogs - Hodinkee, ABTW, and Worn & Wound, probably in that order; the big "swag mags" - Gear Patrol, mostly, but also Hi Consumption, and Cool Material; the big YT reviewers - mostly Urban Gentry, but anyone with a few hundred thousand subscribers would suffice; and the big Instagram influencers - Watch Anish is credited with putting SevenFriday on the map.

I would never turn down any attention from any of the above, but more often than not, the attention you get from those outlets is the result of being some contributor's pet favorite, or paying for it. I look at that sort of sales boost as gravy, not something I want my business to be reliant upon receiving, whether I pay for it or not. I'm usually not inclined to pay for it, and it seems my business isn't the sort they tend to fall in love with.

The big problem I see is this - you live by the sword, you die by the sword.

If you build your business by ads, you can never stop advertising, and your advertising costs will only get more expensive, because of increased competition, ad networks raising costs, and the "low hanging fruit" problem - the more people who know about your brand, the harder it gets to reach new people who don't. Every incremental dollar spent has an incrementally lower ROI. A lot of ad spend is wasted because of that.

Likewise, if your business is made because someone at Hodinkee or Gear Patrol decided you were worth their attention, your business can be unmade when they decide you're not. I don't want my business being at the mercy of someone else thinking I'm cool enough to be featured every time I have a new release. Advertising on those big blogs or in those big swag mags isn't cheap.

I got lucky when John Keil from Watch Gauge was able to get NTH in front of TGV of the Urban Gentry. He liked what he saw, and gave the brand some coverage. He's since transitioned into doing other stuff, and so we're not getting any more coverage there. It was fun while it lasted.

I'm not paying Watch Anish $100k to post a pic of my watch. That's what I heard SevenFriday paid him, and that was 5 years ago. It's probably even more now. I don't have $100k to gamble like that.

That leaves content and engagement.

Creating content and engaging is time-consuming, but we can control the distribution and costs, and it tends to have an increasing ROI, rather than a decreasing ROI. Whereas a $1000/month ad spend is inevitably going to produce diminishing returns over time, my 10 hours per week of content generation and engagement is going to produce increasing returns over time, as my following grows. If it takes me an hour to draft an email blast, that hour has a higher value when my email list is larger.

All that said, I think the number of worthwhile venues and potential value in each is limited. Once you've maximized your exposure in and the value of a venue, your ROI starts to level off and stop increasing. It doesn't generally decrease, the value just gets capped out. I'm not gaining a lot of new followers by posting to WUS or FB groups today.

I don't know how many people are on Huckberry's email list, but I'd bet a lot of guys who buy watches through Huckberry are already reading about watches online, so there's a good but of built-in overlap. Joining a new watch group on FB is just going to put me in front of the same guys I see in the other groups I'm already in.

When you reach that saturation level, it's time to seek out additional venues, and time to get creative.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

I've been intermittently been thinking about this question since it first came up as a topic a week or so ago (I think with my comment on the Nodus guys). 

I echo what doc and everyone else has said. Doc has done a great job cultivating himself and the human side on all of the watch platforms he's on. The Nodus guys are doing the same thing in a different way, that was the main appeal.

That has brought on a second level of analysis.

I have several friends have a couple of watches but aren't checking out forums or nerding out like we are. They are dads with families and other activities and choose to spend their time doing other things (I also have kids but I digress). 

These guys tend to be interested in having things that function well, and appreciate good quality things.

Because I'm into watches, I noticed they always wear a watch so I asked them about their watch and the conversation went further than just the "oh I've had this thing forever..." we actually talked a little about watches. 

One of the guys has actually started to check out some brands I recommended to him. We also are planning a little GTG with a watch buddy of mine and a couple other guys I know that are vaguely into watches but would enjoy hanging out.

And THAT right there is what needs to be captured. Creating some kind of call to action for us WIS to interact with non WIS people that might have a vague interest in watches.

Maybe it's creating a "template" for how watch GTG usually go. What type of things are fun and where to do them. Helping to "spot" other watch guys that would want to tag along.

Not really sure how this would take shape. My goal would be to try to get social leverage from all of the relationships you've cultivated online, and have those people bring out your message to others outside the forum.

Obviously, if it was easy it would already be done. But at least this starts to frame the narrative on ways to reach people outside the standard mediums for people that are connected online. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## ancap95 (Aug 26, 2019)

What are the chances of us seeing a white dial (or preferably lume dial) Scorpene?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sonic_driftwood said:


> I don't know how others feel about ads, in general, but I believe that advertising campaigns...like the ones that interrupt the podcasts I listen to...have the effect of making me LESS likely to buy a product. I know the way most ad campaigns work is not completely obvious to the receivers of the ads and that they have some effect even when you aren't really paying attention to them. But, if I go through a mental checklist of the items I typically buy, everything from toothpaste and shampoo and food, to tools and toys, none of the brands I purchase are supported by any sort of ad campaign with the exception of the things my kids want.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I generally just try to avoid having to deal with ads as much as possible. I don't have CATV, and I don't listen to the radio. I don't have any print magazine or newspaper subscriptions, and I always have uBlock turned on, so I never see most banner ads, and YouTube ads never play. Sometimes "hero" banners like the Undone ads at the top of the page make it through, but I never pay any attention to them. The podcast stuff is generally all stuff I'm not interested in. I already have a Sonicare, I already have an electric razor, and I have no interest in any of the food delivery subscription services.

As Doc has said, watches aren't necessities like underwear and razors, and "normies" are generally just going to check their phones or their Apple watches. My dad has a 16613 Submariner, a Speedmaster, a vintage Omega of some sort, and I think a few other pieces, but he's not a "watch guy" like we are. He's definitely not hanging out on watch forums. He's hanging out on vintage Jag forums talking to other E-type owners and taking his car to shows. I think guys like him are probably "gettable" by micros, but I have no idea what the best way to do that would be.

I think there probably _is_ a connection between guys who like vintage cars and guys who like '70s era Tudor snowflakes, and I could see NTH getting some sales there to someone who likes the look of those old divers but doesn't want to drop $10K+ on a 50 year old watch with an acrylic crystal, tritium lume that doesn't work, and that probably can't even go in the water. I wouldn't know what the best way to reach them is, though.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> He's hanging out on vintage Jag forums talking to other E-type owners and taking his car to shows. I think guys like him are probably "gettable" by micros, but I have no idea what the best way to do that would be.
> 
> I think there probably _is_ a connection between guys who like vintage cars and guys who like '70s era Tudor snowflakes, and I could see NTH getting some sales there to someone who likes the look of those old divers but doesn't want to drop $10K+ on a 50 year old watch with an acrylic crystal, tritium lume that doesn't work, and that probably can't even go in the water. I wouldn't know what the best way to reach them is, though.


This is interesting and a possible avenue.

Here's my story: I was way into bicycles. Regularly read and posted to a place called bikeforums. One day, I notice this thread "Roadies and Watches," which got moved to the catch-all non-bicycle topics forum called Foo. I was amazed by all the pretty watches and it led me to track down a Seiko 5 SNK809. Which I was happy with for nearly 2 years.

Then someone else posted some watches to the thread and I started looking for an Omega, which I now know as the 2534.50. That led to WUS, then to affordables, the ever-on-p.1-NTH thread, and finally the Amphion Commando I own today.

But it has to be an organic thing. If someone posted an NTH as their 1st post ever to some special interest forum, even in a dedicated watch thread, you would never hear the end of "Shill!!!" accusations. And I don't quite know how to get around that. Ask the NTH Watch-Force to reach out on their other-interest forums? Offer some kind of incentive to do so? And how would you track the efficacy of such marketing...? Approach "influencers" within that sphere?

Anyway, that's my story. I don't know that I would have been seeking out an NTH, even if one had be posted there, before I knew anything about watches. But a thread about watches on a completely unrelated forum is what led me to eventually purchase one...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

ancap95 said:


> What are the chances of us seeing a white dial (or preferably lume dial) Scorpene?


I wish, too, but the chances are probably very, very low.

In the meantime, I picked up this, Sinn 656L a LE release from '11...:


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

A good way to reach domestic, mostly off-trend audiences is to do an MLM system.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

92gli said:


> Nice hands
> View attachment 14495385


Holy crap. Almost made an impulse purchase from seeing this pic. Probably one of the coolest photos I've seen recently. Well done.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> This is interesting and a possible avenue.
> 
> Here's my story: I was way into bicycles. Regularly read and posted to a place called bikeforums. One day, I notice this thread "Roadies and Watches," which got moved to the catch-all non-bicycle topics forum called Foo. I was amazed by all the pretty watches and it led me to track down a Seiko 5 SNK809. Which I was happy with for nearly 2 years.
> 
> ...


I went from wearing a jewelry store Citizen Eco-drive to wearing a Lum-tec quartz chrono because I thought Panerai ceramicas looked cool, and I wanted something that looked like that, and Lum-tec's watches look like that, combined with a B&R pilot style dial and handset which I was also into at the time. I'm pretty sure I originally found the M72-S through a Google image search. I got into watches sort of organically, and I don't remember how exactly, but it definitely wasn't through any kind of advertising or influencer.

I will say that watching TGV did convince me to try a ColaReb strap from Holben's after I discovered that I hated NATO straps, and I also learned about Visitor watches because of his channel, and eventually bought a VPO because of that. So at least for me personally, it's sort of been a mix of discovering things on my own (I had one of the original run of 25 modern blue Nackens WAY before TGV talked about them) and seeing watches covered on watch focused YouTube channels. Also, sometimes I just stumble blindly onto a cool looking watch on MyWatchMart, and go "now that looks interesting." I ended up with a blue fume Evant Tropic that way.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ancap95 said:


> What are the chances of us seeing a white dial (or preferably lume dial) Scorpene?


Grab a pic of the Scorpene, and invert the colors...


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Grab a pic of the Scorpene, and invert the colors...
> 
> View attachment 14496141


That's pretty frosty!

Now drop the digits from the dial, match up the indices...Scorpene Ghost!










Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## EddieTheBeast (Jun 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> "Substantial"?
> 
> No, not really, Vero isn't.
> 
> ...


Ok so not an American movement but: 'the only metal watch bracelet being manufactured in the United States today'. I think Pelton look like a noteworthy company!

Link to Pelton Watches


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Scorpene Ghost date.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Someone please tell me when this thread became a dumping ground for info about so many other brands...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Someone please tell me when this thread became a dumping ground for info about so many other brands...


Sometimes I have to back-track to figure out where the train went off the rails...

SOMEBODY: Blah blah question about tariffs.

ME: Something about how tariffs affect businesses like mine - they raise costs, without really having the desired effect of bringing watchmaking back to the USA in a big way.

SOMEBODY ELSE: Well, it's certainly possible blah blah blah.

ME: No, it really isn't, trust me, or not, because I'm happy to explain why not, since I assume you don't want to, otherwise why challenge what I just said in the first place?

---

Yep, that seems to be about where all the trouble started.

---

Pelton looks like a nice watch. Ditto for Vero. I've seen enough RGMs to know they're nice. You know what was REALLY nice? The $80,000 made-in-the-UK Frodsham's watch I was allowed to fondle in the UK.

But, really - why bring all that up here?

Feel free to start a new discussion thread about Vero, or Pelton, or any other brand. Please understand why I'm not thrilled to have it happen here. Either explanation below may suffice as valid, but choose whichever makes me seem less of a jerk.

A) It seems like there's an implied expectation I'll offer some comment in response, which is potentially fraught with peril for me, and is at best, a pointless distraction.

B) Honestly, I was bored talking about the USA-made stuff before we reached the end of that discussion. Actually, I was bored of it before the discussion started. That horse has been beaten well beyond death for years.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Sometimes I have to back-track to figure out where the train went off the rails...
> 
> SOMEBODY: Blah blah question about tariffs.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to be a jerk. Bear with me...

Frequently enough, people will comment, here in this thread, or in others where I'm involved and sure to see, with comments that seem to beg for some response from me.

And, in many cases, I don't know how to respond.

Why ask me what I think about some other brand, or design? Why point out that Vero makes their own cases, or Pelton makes their own bracelets - TO ME - as a response to a discussion where the context is the insanely high cost of trying to make things in the USA?

Vero makes cases, Pelton makes bracelets - and neither is remotely close to what WIS would typically consider good "Value for Money". Are they arguments about what I was just saying? That's what they seem to be. Why are we arguing? How are those good arguments?

Are you just pointing them out, as vaguely relevant, not meant as argument? Okay, but...again, I'm completely at a loss for what I'm supposed to say in response. They don't contradict what I was saying, only support it.

And yet, "Well, it's possible to make stuff in the USA - look at Vero or Pelton," doesn't sound like they're provided as examples proving the case I was making. How else am I to construe them but as contradictory? That seems like a reasonable way to read those.

I don't want to argue this $hlt. I know what I'm saying is correct as I'm typing it. I don't want to get sucked into a drawn out debate about it with anyone, because I said something vaguely controversial (when it really wasn't), and someone feels compelled to look for the example of some exception to what I was saying. Why draw me into that debate? You'll more than likely end up despising me before it's done.

I'm happy to respond to any/all questions people want to throw at me, so long as we can agree that I'm not here to wage pointless arguments on every topic. If you disagree with me, fine, that's your prerogative, but please don't think me rude if I simply ignore your comments to the contrary.

I don't want to be rude, but neither do I want to argue with you, and those seem to be the only two choices I've been given when I say something in response, and someone feels compelled to disagree.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Someone please tell me when this thread became a dumping ground for info about so many other brands...


This thread has actually become its own separate entity. It's a forum in a forum.

Mainly I think it goes down a back alley while we all wait around to see what's coming next from the Doc Skunk Works (obscure aviation reference, props to Clarence Kelly Johnson). We wait around for a couple months, and then everything sells out pretty quick, and then the cycle repeats itself. And while we wait we discuss just about anything. Reference the last couple hundred pages...


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I miss the beach.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> Someone please tell me when this thread became a dumping ground for info about so many other brands...


This thread is a dumping ground for _everything_ that people don't want to make a new thread about. You just noticed?;-)


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

RmacMD said:


> Holy crap. Almost made an impulse purchase from seeing this pic. Probably one of the coolest photos I've seen recently. Well done.


Taken with a $200 phone AND I was drunk! lol


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> This thread has actually become its own separate entity. It's a forum in a forum.
> 
> Mainly I think it goes down a back alley while we all wait around to see what's coming next from the Doc Skunk Works (obscure aviation reference, props to Clarence Kelly Johnson). We wait around for a couple months, and then everything sells out pretty quick, and then the cycle repeats itself. And while we wait we discuss just about anything. Reference the last couple hundred pages...


Not that obscure. The folder on my laptop with all the stuff I think is cool and may use as inspiration is called "skunk works".

Just sayin', maybe I'm always missing the nuance of the discussion. Nuance isn't my strong suit. Ask me a question, I answer. Argue with me, I'll take it you want to argue, even though I have no idea why. Pay me a compliment, I'll awkwardly acknowledge it, as gracefully as I can.

Some posts just confuse me. I'm not mad, just confused about the intent. Throw a bone to the guy who doesn't easily pick up on subtlety. Make your point, or run the risk I'll completely misconstrue it.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Not that obscure. The folder on my laptop with all the stuff I think is cool and may use as inspiration is called "skunk works".
> 
> Just sayin', maybe I'm always missing the nuance of the discussion. Nuance isn't my strong suit. Ask me a question, I answer. Argue with me, I'll take it you want to argue, even though I have no idea why. Pay me a compliment, I'll awkwardly acknowledge it, as gracefully as I can.
> 
> ...


It's all good. It has taken me all of my life to finally realize that I DON'T need to respond to everything with which I might disagree. Hence my diminished presence on the internet. This thread, however, serves as my daily dose of interesting conversation and humor.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> It's all good. It has taken me all of my life to finally realize that I DON'T need to respond to everything with which I might disagree. Hence my diminished presence on the internet. This thread, however, serves as my daily dose of interesting conversation and humor.


Yup. Don't even get me started on twitter. I enjoy this thread for its mix of cool NTH pics, WOTs, and rando watch dork tangents. My primary hobby is really more audio gear than watches, but I tend not to spend any time on audio forums because they are almost universally unbearable. It's a bit hard to make a comparison, but imagine if you said "here's why an NTH is better than a Parnis sub homage," and then half the thread started saying, "No, it isn't. Your watch tells time, so does theirs. All watches tell time, therefore all watches are the same, and you're an idiot for spending more than $100 on one." That's what audio forums are like.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

ryan850 said:


> ...
> 
> One of the guys has actually started to check out some brands I recommended to him. We also are planning a little GTG with a watch buddy of mine and a couple other guys I know that are vaguely into watches but would enjoy hanging out.
> 
> ...


Preach it, brother! Are we evangelizing NTH or the gospel? I've heard a similar blueprint for spreading the good news outside the walls of the church.


----------



## ancap95 (Aug 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> Grab a pic of the Scorpene, and invert the colors...
> 
> View attachment 14496141


If you posted that to show how awesome it would look, kudos. If you posted it because that's the only way I'll be able to see it, that's a shame.

I'm guessing it would work better with a black bezel but I'd buy it either way.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

dmjonez said:


> This thread has actually become its own separate entity. It's a forum in a forum.


Less of a thread, and more of a stream-of-consciousness, really.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

ancap95 said:


> If you posted that to show how awesome it would look, kudos. If you posted it because that's the only way I'll be able to see it, that's a shame.
> 
> I'm guessing it would work better with a black bezel but I'd buy it either way.


Lucky for you the bezel can't be made white!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

3WR said:


> Preach it, brother! Are we evangelizing NTH or the gospel? I've heard a similar blueprint for spreading the good news outside the walls of the church.
> 
> View attachment 14496731


My transforming will soon be complete lol

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## ancap95 (Aug 26, 2019)

hwa said:


> Lucky for you the bezel can't be made white!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sweet! I'm patient, hopefully I get a chance to buy one.


----------



## gokce (May 10, 2018)

hwa said:


> Lucky for you the bezel can't be made white!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Non-PVD stainless steel would also work well.

Having said that, my next NTH will likely be the black dial Scorpene with the 12-hour black bezel.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

gokce said:


> Non-PVD stainless steel would also work well.
> 
> Having said that, my next NTH will likely be the black dial Scorpene with the 12-hour black bezel.


Well, if we're just spitballing, a silver sunburst with black bezel would be something to see, too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

....









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Gents (and what few ladies may be daring enough to lurk in this thread)...
> 
> The NTH website is now sold out of the models below. What inventory our retailers have is all that remains.
> 
> ...


Add Näcken Vintage Blue to the list.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Just bought the last nacken modern black w/date from serious! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

hwa said:


> Lucky for you the bezel can't be made white!


Just do it in ceramic...
(ducks and covers)


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

On an EO MN for a spell...


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> On an EO MN for a spell...
> 
> View attachment 14498363


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)




----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

hwa said:


> Lucky for you the bezel can't be made white!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What's your favorite nth watch? And what's your favorite non nth?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

JLS36 said:


> What's your favorite nth watch? And what's your favorite non nth?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Pretty sure hwa's entire collection could be considered nth and non-nth.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> On an EO MN for a spell...
> 
> View attachment 14498363


Subtle nod to the forum people at 10 o'clock.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Peteagus said:


> Pretty sure hwa's entire collection could be considered nth and non-nth.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's going to get weirder soon! Stay tuned...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> What's your favorite nth watch? And what's your favorite non nth?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Even though that question wasn't directed at all of us, I'm going to pretend that it was. NTH: Nazario Azzuro. I'm a sucker for blue watches, and that one was done incredibly well. Non NTH, currently, my SDGC009 JDM cocktail time. Like I said, sucker for blue watches, and this one is mesmerizing to look at. Also, I don't know how they did it, but the AR on these SDGC models is INSANE. It seriously looks like they don't have crystals at all.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Even though that question wasn't directed at all of us, I'm going to pretend that it was. NTH: Nazario Azzuro. I'm a sucker for blue watches, and that one was done incredibly well. Non NTH, currently, my SDGC009 JDM cocktail time. Like I said, sucker for blue watches, and this one is mesmerizing to look at. Also, I don't know how they did it, but the AR on these SDGC models is INSANE. It seriously looks like they don't have crystals at all.
> 
> View attachment 14499795


I have two tied for non nth. And the tikuna is the winner for me followed by the scorpene.









Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> I have two tied for non nth. And the tikuna is the winner for me followed by the scorpene.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is the Monta really that good? Been eyeing them


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

JLS36 said:


> What's your favorite nth watch? And what's your favorite non nth?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Easy for me. Only have one NTH and that's the Carolina, which I love. Were I to purchase another NTH the Devil Ray and the Nazario Ghost top the list of ones I want.

I'm a big fan of Zelos as well as NTH and my bronze Swordfish with the teal dial is really beautiful.

Elshan and Doc Vail both make really cool watches. I'd love to see a JV with Doc's sub case and some of Elshan's original dials like the forged carbon.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Is the Monta really that good? Been eyeing them


Yes it's quality and construction is as good as any watch I've held,owned or worn.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

My favorite NTH is my 1st gen Nazario. I'm trying not to buy any more 40mm watches, but the Nazario Ghost keeps tempting me, and if there's a gilt dial Amphion in the works, that may push me over the edge.








My favorite non-NTH is my Omega Dynamic 3rd gen 3 hander. This is what I grab when I'm in a hurry.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

The uncle Seiko president band works! Intended for my skx013 but I wanted to wear it on this today.









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

For NTHs, let's call it a tie:









For non-NTHs, tougher still:









You get the idea! Who can choose?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Favorite (only) NTH at the moment, and current non-NTH seeing the most wrist time.









Favorite for going to a rave:


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

These 2 for me









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## The Dude Hank (Feb 19, 2018)

Only Nth and favorite watch over all, Omega Dynamic.










The Dude Abides


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

The love is equally distributed among my watch harem
Since hwa also cheated, here are my "2"


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Taint Blitz.


I almost feel like that would proffer a bit of discomfort... 


Also, extricated from Hwa’s pic, not random.


Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I've given this a lot of thought. I think if I had to narrow my collection down to two watches - zombies are at the front door, the house is burning down, I'm in a sinking sailboat next to a deserted island - and I can only grab one watch from the box in addition to the one on my wrist...I have to say that my Nacken Modern Blue and CWC Royal Navy diver would be the two I'd take.

For the longest time I'd been thinking that the Nacken and my SKX would be the two apocalypse watches, but lately I am finding myself completely over the whole non-hand winding aspect the the SKX. It's a real hassle sometimes. The CWC wears beautifully, and is more and more frequently my grab and go watch being quartz and always ready to rock and roll.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> The love is equally distributed among my watch harem
> Since hwa also cheated, here are my "2"
> 
> View attachment 14501449


One on the far right looks interesting. Vintage Russian, if I had to guess. For half a second, I thought you modded a Makara Turtle.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I've given this a lot of thought. I think if I had to narrow my collection down to two watches - zombies are at the front door, the house is burning down, I'm in a sinking sailboat next to a deserted island - and I can only grab one watch from the box in addition to the one on my wrist...I have to say that my Nacken Modern Blue and CWC Royal Navy diver would be the two I'd take.
> 
> For the longest time I'd been thinking that the Nacken and my SKX would be the two apocalypse watches, but lately I am finding myself completely over the whole non-hand winding aspect the the SKX. It's a real hassle sometimes. The CWC wears beautifully, and is more and more frequently my grab and go watch being quartz and always ready to rock and roll.


The CWC is a very cool watch. I just can't do quartz.

For the SKX almost-but-not-really fans, there's now the new Islander, from Island Watch - hacking/hand-winding NH36, sapphire crystal, choice of 60-min or 12-hr ceramic bezel, SKX-clone case with 200m WR, compatible with SKX mod parts, SEL bracelet, and probably better assembly/QC and finishing, for ~$300, much less than it would cost to upgrade/mod a new non-hacking/non-handwinding SKX with all the same features.

Gotta hand it to Marc Frankel. In retrospect, it all seems so obvious, and yet, it never seemed to occur to anyone else.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Taint Blitz.
> 
> I almost feel like that would proffer a bit of discomfort...
> 
> ...


"Almost"?


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> "Almost"?


Hedging.

Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> Favorite (only) NTH at the moment, and current non-NTH seeing the most wrist time.
> 
> View attachment 14501135
> 
> ...


I gotta say I wasn't a fan of the amphibian commando until I saw it on that strap. it looks tough as hell! I'm jocking your look for sure. About to grab one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> One on the far right looks interesting. Vintage Russian, if I had to guess. For half a second, I thought you modded a Makara Turtle.


Its a vintage Vostok Amphibia 470. They don't make this model anymore.

What's interesting imo is the radial case brushing, angular case and dial. No idea how they did the dial but it looks like anodized finish. Not something that is generally seen in tool/dive watches.

It also has an antimagnetic "cage" placed over the movement and stem + dial made from non magnetic metals.

Old picture ... unfortunately the stock bezel is chrome plated.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Favorites change often, at least daily, impossible to choose. Big diver, milsub fan





Robust quartz gets my attention


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

My fav from NTH is.. Scorpene, BVB/Carolina and Skipjack in no particular order. I'm selling off my Nacken Modern Blue this weekend. 





















For non-NTH from the microbrands would be the Baltic Aquascaphe. I don't have this yet as I'm waiting for the restock to happen in Nov.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

NTH was the BVB









Non NTH:









And


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mikefable said:


> I gotta say I wasn't a fan of the *amphibian* commando until I saw it on that strap. it looks tough as hell! I'm jocking your look for sure. About to grab one.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


*Amphion.












Seikogi said:


> Its a vintage Vostok Amphibia 470. They don't make this model anymore.
> 
> What's interesting imo is the radial case brushing, angular case and dial. No idea how they did the dial but it looks like anodized finish. Not something that is generally seen in tool/dive watches.
> 
> ...


Radial case brushing is old-school cool.

I don't know enough about all the potential dial materials and finishes to know if it's anodized. I mostly hear that term associated with aluminum (mostly bezel inserts), whereas I know brass tends to be the standard dial material these days, which would usually be printed in some way, or in the case of the gilt-relief, electro-plated. Considering it's old and Russian, nothing would surprise me.

I'll defer to the engineers lurking, but I think antimagnetic cages are made from magnetic metals, not non-magnetic, perhaps counter-intuitively. Non-magnetic metals generally make weak magnetic shields, whereas magnetic metals route magnetism around the object being shielded.

Chrome plating is standard-issue Vostok. Part of their "charm", like wobbly crowns, short hands, and no-click bezels.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Separate from the current "favorite two" conversation, just wanted to share this from today. Strapcode Hexad Oyster's contours look like it was made specifically for this watch.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

...now as far as the other thing:


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

liquidtension said:


> My fav from NTH is.. Scorpene, BVB/Carolina and Skipjack in no particular order. I'm selling off my Nacken Modern Blue this weekend.
> 
> For non-NTH from the microbrands would be the Baltic Aquascaphe. I don't have this yet as I'm waiting for the restock to happen in Nov.


I actually like alot more than just the baltic.. but I'm just eyeing one at a time.....I have been lusting over the baltic for more than 6 months.... I also love some vintage skin divers, and vintage squale medium case. Those does not come by easily..

For non-microbrand, and non-nth, I think Rado's reissue are wonderful particularly the captain cooks (36mm) and their date just dress watches golden horse. I also love the longines big eye. It ooozes to much manliness !


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> The CWC is a very cool watch. I just can't do quartz.
> 
> For the SKX almost-but-not-really fans, there's now the new Islander, from Island Watch - hacking/hand-winding NH36, sapphire crystal, choice of 60-min or 12-hr ceramic bezel, SKX-clone case with 200m WR, compatible with SKX mod parts, SEL bracelet, and probably better assembly/QC and finishing, for ~$300, much less than it would cost to upgrade/mod a new non-hacking/non-handwinding SKX with all the same features.
> 
> Gotta hand it to Marc Frankel. In retrospect, it all seems so obvious, and yet, it never seemed to occur to anyone else.


Wow credit to Marc on that. By the time you're finished with a crystal, bezel insert, hands, chapter ring, etc, even going the complete DIY route using a CT or Namoki case, I don't think you could make your own "SKX" for less than $300 or so. I've completely lost track of how much I invested into mine, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was pushing $7-800 at this point, and it still has the 7S26 in it. I'm also working on a PVD version that I'm going to buy a complete Jade Monster to harvest the dial and 6R15 out of, because I am an insane person.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

Favorite NTH that I currently own is Nazario Sauro, I love cali dial and the colorways. However Scorpene design is what I like most. And while I have a blue Scorpene, I think the black version is the perfect one. I also own a magenta Dolphin which unfortunately doesn't really make a bond with me. If I could only have one NTH, or even one microbrand, it would be the black Scorpene.

















Favorite non NTH, this is a bit hard to answer since it's changing all the time. All time favorite maybe my Tudor BB36. But nowadays these Solar Tuna duo get much wrist time.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

MaxIcon said:


> ...
> My favorite non-NTH is my Omega Dynamic 3rd gen 3 hander. This is what I grab when I'm in a hurry.
> View attachment 14500805





The Dude Hank said:


> Only Nth and favorite watch over all, Omega Dynamic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting to see two of these pop up. I'm intrigued. Date font is cool.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Mikefable said:


> I gotta say I wasn't a fan of the amphibian commando until I saw it on that strap. it looks tough as hell! I'm jocking your look for sure. About to grab one.


It's an Erika's Original Marine Nationale strap, black with red stripe and stainless satin hardwarwe. I got it used, for a different watch, but held onto it when that watch sold. Perfect for the Amphion Commando, with the red highlights.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> It's an Erika's Original Marine Nationale strap, black with red stripe and stainless satin hardwarwe. I got it used, for a different watch, but held onto it when that watch sold. Perfect for the Amphion Commando, with the red highlights.


Yeah I have a few! Love them!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> Wow credit to Marc on that. By the time you're finished with a crystal, bezel insert, hands, chapter ring, etc, even going the complete DIY route using a CT or Namoki case, I don't think you could make your own "SKX" for less than $300 or so. I've completely lost track of how much I invested into mine, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was pushing $7-800 at this point, and it still has the 7S26 in it. I'm also working on a PVD version that I'm going to buy a complete Jade Monster to harvest the dial and 6R15 out of, because I am an insane person.


I once priced out a custom Yobokies build -- Big Numbers/656 dial and hands, black date wheel, 12hr stainless bezel, sapphire, NH36 movement. With new donor watch, it was up around $650-700. At that point, I was all, like, might as well get either a Nodus Contrail SS or NTH Scorpene. Scorpene popped up at a decent price on F29, so it got the nod... until the Amphion Commando was released...

With Marc's new stuff, I might have gone for the 12hr version and never looked back. Seiko could have done an updated SKX release, but I bet it would not have been this cheap -- instead, they downgraded spec for the new Sport 5 series. In other threads, people are pointing out that Heimdallr/Sharkey sells a 007 homage at $150 or so, but 1) it's currently sold out, 2) aluminum, not lumed ceramic bezel, and 3) no drilled lugs. Plus, Marc offers mod parts and services...


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

Slightly off topic, maybe I missed it or maybe it was announced on social media somewhere (I'm not on Facebook or any other social media) but what ever happened with the make a GoFund me $20 donation to have a chance to win one of several micro-brand watches? Did the winners ever get announced or is there a list somewhere? I assume since I wasn't contacted I didn't win anything but, was just curious who did get lucky.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Metallman said:


> Slightly off topic, maybe I missed it or maybe it was announced on social media somewhere (I'm not on Facebook or any other social media) but what ever happened with the make a GoFund me $20 donation to have a chance to win one of several micro-brand watches? Did the winners ever get announced or is there a list somewhere? I assume since I wasn't contacted I didn't win anything but, was just curious who did get lucky.


It was announced on the BSH thread, and winners have already received their watches. I actually ended up with a nice Traska.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Metallman said:


> Slightly off topic, maybe I missed it or maybe it was announced on social media somewhere (I'm not on Facebook or any other social media) but what ever happened with the make a GoFund me $20 donation to have a chance to win one of several micro-brand watches? Did the winners ever get announced or is there a list somewhere? I assume since I wasn't contacted I didn't win anything but, was just curious who did get lucky.


https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=49240427

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

3WR said:


> Interesting to see two of these pop up. I'm intrigued. Date font is cool.


Once I figured out the Dynamic was my go-to watch, I tried to figure out why. This has helped me quit buying bandwagon watches that I like the looks of but don't wear too much.
- Small and thin, at 36.5mm (I have skinny wrists), but very legible due to the field watch aesthetic
- Interesting dial with deco markers and subtle color pops (I like numeral dials)
- Font-matched date wheel that's also legible without a cyclops
- Light, comfortable bracelet, but works well on a variety of straps
- Bonus big crown and cool second hand, and is a bit quirky, which I like

Not for everyone, due to the smaller size, but it works for me.

I also have the chrono version, but the piggyback module makes it a good bit thicker, and it's more noticeable on the wrist for me.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=49240427
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Totally forgot here as well! Kudos by the way for the amazing support as well as the other brands who stepped to support. Just a great community to be a part of!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I once priced out a custom Yobokies build -- Big Numbers/656 dial and hands, black date wheel, 12hr stainless bezel, sapphire, NH36 movement. With new donor watch, it was up around $650-700. At that point, I was all, like, might as well get either a Nodus Contrail SS or NTH Scorpene. Scorpene popped up at a decent price on F29, so it got the nod... until the Amphion Commando was released...
> 
> With Marc's new stuff, I might have gone for the 12hr version and never looked back. Seiko could have done an updated SKX release, but I bet it would not have been this cheap -- instead, they downgraded spec for the new Sport 5 series. In other threads, people are pointing out that Heimdallr/Sharkey sells a 007 homage at $150 or so, but 1) it's currently sold out, 2) aluminum, not lumed ceramic bezel, and 3) no drilled lugs. Plus, Marc offers mod parts and services...


There will always be a cheaper alternative direct from a Chinese factory, and always a buyer who either doesn't put any value on the value-adds from the seller (like customer support), or who is willing to roll the dice they won't need any customer support.

Everyone has to earn a living. I've seen some of the factory-direct Seiko clones in person. As a value proposition, they're about equivalent to a Parnis. They're a lot of watch for the money, but there are always little things which betray a lowest-cost mindset in their quality. And, if you get a bad one, you're in for a longer, more frustrating process of getting help sorting it out.

True story -

Marc used to sell Lew & Huey. His sales weren't paying my rent, and I'm sure they weren't paying his, either, but we did some nice business together, and got along.

One day, he contacted me about a customer whose Seiko NH35-powered watch started having movement issues, after 6-9 months of ownership. Based on my experience and the fact-set, it sounded like it was dropped, affecting the balance, and needed a watchmaker to sort it out, but it would be a cheap & easy fix, which we shouldn't be responsible for sorting out.

Marc saw it differently. The cause didn't matter to him. He thought we should sort it out, but rather than argue with me about it, he said he'd just sort it out for the guy.

In retrospect, I was being penny-wise and pound-foolish, and a bit stubborn. I had my reasons at the time, but it was a learning experience for me, and now I'd handle things like Marc did.

That wasn't the only scenario I've heard about like that, with Marc. He used to (and still may) sell chronos with the ST19 movement. That movement can be finicky. The defect rate is high, and sometimes doesn't appear until months into ownership. If you get one with a bad movement, you'd be hard-pressed to find a watchmaker to work on it, and you'd be flipping a coin buying a new movement on eBay.

Marc kept (keeps?) a supply of them. When someone gets a bad one, he replaces the movement. Not the manufacturer, under warranty - *MARC* replaces the movement.

My retailers often have their own in-house watchmakers, and they'll sometimes do a movement swap when needed, but often I'll end up supplying the movement.

Marc's basically got his own in-house national repair center. Maybe he's getting support direct from Seiko, because he sells so many of them. But even if so - Marc's service has to be worth something.

When you get a bad Parnis or Heimdallr, or Sharkey, you're dealing with a factory in China. There's a big time zone difference, a language barrier, expensive international shipping, and very often, a hesitancy to provide support, because their margins are so thin to begin with. Just paying the shipping one-way may eat up all their profit on that sale.

I have no doubt the Islander will be nicer than a Seiko SKX, in overall quality, and it comes with literally - not figuratively - the world's best customer support as part of the price.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Hello Chris,

any chance of getting a modern submariner homage?

JD31


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Double post


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jerseydan31 said:


> Hello Chris,
> 
> any chance of getting a modern submariner homage?
> 
> JD31


Zero chance.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

MaxIcon said:


> Once I figured out the Dynamic was my go-to watch, I tried to figure out why. This has helped me quite buying bandwagon watches that I like the looks of but don't wear too much.
> - Small and thin, at 36.5mm (I have skinny wrists), but very legible due to the field watch aesthetic
> - Interesting dial with deco markers and subtle color pops (I like numeral dials)
> - Font-matched date wheel that's also legible without a cyclops
> ...


Solid list of Pros.

Did I read correctly that those are all from around 2000? Wouldn't have guessed they were that old.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMFord (Sep 7, 2012)




----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Fellas, bookmark this post. Whenever any of the trolls start name-calling Chris for this or that, point right here. This is a first-class move by Chris. Color me impressed.



docvail said:


> There will always be a cheaper alternative direct from a Chinese factory, and always a buyer who either doesn't put any value on the value-adds from the seller (like customer support), or who is willing to roll the dice they won't need any customer support.
> 
> Everyone has to earn a living. I've seen some of the factory-direct Seiko clones in person. As a value proposition, they're about equivalent to a Parnis. They're a lot of watch for the money, but there are always little things which betray a lowest-cost mindset in their quality. And, if you get a bad one, you're in for a longer, more frustrating process of getting help sorting it out.
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Fellas, bookmark this post. Whenever any of the trolls start name-calling Chris for this or that, point right here. This is a first-class move by Chris. Color me impressed.


I give credit where I think it's due.

Despite the fact that Marc and I haven't done business in years, we still get along, and I respect him, completely.

I got the sense he wasn't thrilled with my stance in that one instance, but he took the high road, rather than making it a federal case. To this day, I still feel a sense of embarrassment about it. He took me to school, in the most subtle way possible.

I like to think I learned the lesson.

But, like I said, we still talk sometimes, and as far as I know, we get along. I can't fault him for how he handled that situation, or me, in the aftermath.

Marc's been at this for years. He's worked hard, but he's also made great decisions. It would be a criminal understatement to describe his business as simply "thriving". He's been killing it for years, and his success is entirely well-earned.

A better-made, well-upgraded SKX, fully compatible with stock and aftermarket SKX parts, sold new, with a warranty, for $300? In retrospect, it's almost stupidly obvious. I feel stupid I didn't see it. But, Marc saw it, and had the cojones to make it.

Notice - he didn't go on Kickstarter, or do a discounted pre-order. He just cut a check for their production, waited to take delivery, and went live with them. Those are cojones big enough to drive around in a dump truck.

I've seen the online comments, here and on FB, and the snark about it. It may have been my very first conversation with Marc, when he told me something I still think about almost daily, even now, 6 years later - "the market is much larger than the forums and Facebook."

He doesn't need WIS approval to do anything. Whatever he does, it'll work. He knows what he's doing, with a level of certainty I aspire to.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Bought my first ~WIS purchase from Marc back in 2011, a month after I joined WUS (a first gen Orange Monster, which I sold back in '14, foolishly). I've chatted with him a few times since and he's tops. He'll even check chapter ring alignment, if you ask.  I'll definitely look at the Islander (c'mon, 38mm!).

And, yes, that Skipjack pic from earlier is intensely awesome. |>


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> I once priced out a custom Yobokies build -- Big Numbers/656 dial and hands, black date wheel, 12hr stainless bezel, sapphire, NH36 movement. With new donor watch, it was up around $650-700. At that point, I was all, like, might as well get either a Nodus Contrail SS or NTH Scorpene. Scorpene popped up at a decent price on F29, so it got the nod... until the Amphion Commando was released...
> 
> With Marc's new stuff, I might have gone for the 12hr version and never looked back. Seiko could have done an updated SKX release, but I bet it would not have been this cheap -- instead, they downgraded spec for the new Sport 5 series. In other threads, people are pointing out that Heimdallr/Sharkey sells a 007 homage at $150 or so, but 1) it's currently sold out, 2) aluminum, not lumed ceramic bezel, and 3) no drilled lugs. Plus, Marc offers mod parts and services...


Yeah I don't understand what Seiko was thinking with those new models. I'm sure there's some minor extra cost to making them official ISO certified dive watches, so I think they could probably skip that specific thing and leave the "Diver's" tag to the turtle, and people wouldn't be too upset. Going to 10ATM and *losing the screw-down crown*, why? Even the 10ATM wouldn't be so bad, but how much does a threaded crown possibly cost over a push-pull? I just picked up an Oris Diver's 65 which is also only 10ATM rated, but I can put it on silicone and take it in the water and not worry because I know the crown is safe. Seiko should've just replaced the 7S26 with the 4R36, raise the price $50, and otherwise left it alone.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

In case anyone is curious how these two compare. The SSW for whatever reason hasn't really connected with me, so it'll be moving on. The '65 is its replacement.


----------



## sobwanhoser (Feb 8, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> The uncle Seiko president band works! Intended for my skx013 but I wanted to wear it on this today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, like a 3am booty call that I really should never make but I still want it...!


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Finally... letting this guy go..


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

New strap for my Scorpéne


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

wtma said:


> New strap for my Scorpéne


Where have I seen one of them?
(Pic of my Scorp mod on a 36, which tapacrap wont allow me to upload. This will he tapacraps downfall)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

hwa said:


> Where have I seen one of them?
> (Pic of my Scorp mod on a 36, which tapacrap wont allow me to upload. This will he tapacraps downfall)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It didn't allow me to upload full resolution photos either, it got scaled down.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Rocking my Zwaardvis again today. (I was too busy at work to wear it the last few days -- was afraid it would distract me.)








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> I give credit where I think it's due.
> 
> Despite the fact that Marc and I haven't done business in years, we still get along, and I respect him, completely.
> 
> ...


I like that Marc waited for the SKX to be discontinued. If he did that part on purpose (I assume so) that is a classy move. I remember when another brand did a SKX bigger with upgraded specs and got roasted here for it.


----------



## Amuthini (Sep 15, 2011)

CMA22inc said:


> I like that Marc waited for the SKX to be discontinued. If he did that part on purpose (I assume so) that is a classy move. I remember when another brand did a SKX bigger with upgraded specs and got roasted here for it.


deep blue


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> I like that Marc waited for the SKX to be discontinued. If he did that part on purpose (I assume so) that is a classy move. I remember when another brand did a SKX bigger with upgraded specs and got roasted here for it.


Only to clarify - by "here", you mean "WUS", not here, this thread, and not by me.

I don't think I ever said anything about the NATO diver, publicly or otherwise.

I've also met Stan from Deep Blue, and have no problem with him.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I never got what the big problem was with that watch. Yes it looks very similar, but it's also much bigger at 44mm, and is 300M rated. Seiko won't sell you a 300M diver unless you're willing to drop $2K on a Marine Master. I'm also not sure, but I expect the dial is bigger, which some people might appreciate. Seiko makes mammoth cased dive watches with tiny dials in them - you can put a Sumo dial in a 37mm Seiko 5 dress watch case, and it'll fit perfectly. The MM dial is actually _even smaller_ at 28mm even, whereas the others are about 28.5mm. I don't see making an upgraded, more capable SKX as some kind of blasphemy, especially when Seiko had so much time to do similar upgrades themselves, and chose to do nothing.

Regardless, I'm just happy that so many SKX clone cases and crown/stems are available now, so you won't have to find an original to then chop up if you want to mod it.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Friday surprise









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> Only to clarify - by "here", you mean "WUS", not here, this thread, and not by me.
> 
> I don't think I ever said anything about the NATO diver, publicly or otherwise.
> 
> I've also met Stan from Deep Blue, and have no problem with him.


Yes, correct on all counts.

Sorry I was not more clear.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> Yes, correct on all counts.
> 
> Sorry I was not more clear.


No worries, Bruh.

I'm just a little skittish about brand-tribalism. I've seen how some guys will read something someone else says about this or that brand, and somehow decide to hold me accountable for what that other guy said.

More often than not, they're blaming me for HWA.

Like I have any control over what HWA says. I can't even get him to stop modding my watches.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> No worries, Bruh.
> 
> I'm just a little skittish about brand-tribalism. I've seen how some guys will read something someone else says about this or that brand, and somehow decide to hold me accountable for what that other guy said.
> 
> ...


Oh, not to worry. The guy who promised to gold-plate one of them has disabused me of that. Still, the "fix" will be fun for all!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...
> 
> More often than not, they're blaming me for HWA.
> 
> Like I have any control over what HWA says. I can't even get him to stop modding my watches.


LOL perfect burn for a Friday night!

Doc Savage


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Saturday morning errands in the gf's sardine size car.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mikefable said:


> Saturday morning errands in the gf's sardine size car.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a car sized FOR sardines, or a car the size OF sardines?

So many questions...


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

docvail said:


> That's a car sized FOR sardines, or a car the size OF sardines?
> 
> So many questions...


I think both are applicable in this situation!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Met up with an old friend for drinks at our usual hangout last night, a local, hometown bar where he goes regularly, and where we almost always run into folks we know from back in school.

Not sure why, or if I just do this unconsciously all the time now, but I found myself looking around to see what people had on their wrists.

I'm guessing I'm not the only one. Do we not know this is a recipe for despair?

Saw a few Apple watches, a few overly-large/overly-blingy whatevers, one guy who seemed to be wearing a smaller, possibly vintage gold-cased something, and one guy wearing something that looked vaguely interesting, but that I couldn't make out very well.

At one point, the comely bartender noticed me looking in her direction. I was looking at her Apple watch, but it must have looked like I was gawking at her. I did gawk at her and the other comely bartender for a good part of the evening, but wasn't gawking at that moment.

Anyhoo, she said something to me, I don't remember exactly what, but essentially noting that I seemed to be staring. Instinctively, I said, "maybe I like what I see", and almost instantly regretted it.

It was the sort of thing I'd have said when I was a flirtatiously bold 20-something. Now I probably sounded like a disgustingly creepy 40-something.

She turned and walked away. My buddy said, "she didn't seem to like that", to which I shrugged, but couldn't stop my brain from being invaded with all the more clever things I might have said if I'd been prepared.

Usually, when I meet up with him, it'll be early in the evening, I'll hang out a couple hours, then leave him there. For some reason last night I stayed almost to closing, and my head is splitting this morning. He closes the joint on a regular basis. I don't know how he does it and manages not to look like it's taking any toll on him at all. There's not a gray hair on his bushy head, and I wager he hasn't put on more than five pounds since we graduated 30 years ago.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

I’ve gotten to the point of not caring anymore in these situations. Searching the rooms for watches then when I see one that may be interesting focusing on it. I’ve had a few people ask if I was looking at them for a reason and my default response now is “not you, your watch”

Classic bill Murray in kingpin. 

Stares and waves at girls at table. One waves back. His response, “no not you, your friend”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*










Not a reflection, just an apt demonstration of what I'd feel like if I went out for drinks, where people are present...

Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Not sure why, or if I just do this unconsciously all the time now, but I found myself looking around to see what people had on their wrists.
> 
> I'm guessing I'm not the only one. Do we not know this is a recipe for despair?


Oh I do that all the time. Apple watches couldn't be less interesting so I move right along after noticing them, and aside from those, it's usually some shiny MK or MVMT on the wrist of the woman ringing up my groceries at the supermarket. Very very occasionally I'll catch something interesting, like the black ceramic Submariner on the wrist of the guy next to me on a flight, or the guy working at a recent festival wearing a Tag Formula One. I doubt Mr. Submariner would be interested in a dorky conversation about watches, and was busy reading something anyway. The guy wearing the Tag though I struck up a conversation with because I didn't immediately recognize it, and I figured he's there to talk to people anyway.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Met up with an old friend for drinks at our usual hangout last night, a local, hometown bar where he goes regularly, and where we almost always run into folks we know from back in school.
> 
> Not sure why, or if I just do this unconsciously all the time now, but I found myself looking around to see what people had on their wrists.
> 
> ...


No Sub? Some friend. Maybe he's a lefty.

Regarding Ms. Apple, she probably didn't know she was dealing with an important person. Did you ask her if she'd heard of MVMT?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> No Sub? Some friend. Maybe he's a lefty.
> 
> Regarding Ms. Apple, she probably didn't know she was dealing with an important person. *Did you ask her if she'd heard of MVMT?*


LQTM.

(Laugh quietly to myself)

He has a Phantom. Not sure why he wasn't wearing it, other than the fact he'd just gotten off work. I think it's his only watch. I might give him my v.1 Nacken prototype next time I see him.

It is kind of strange to be "internet famous" among watch geeks, but to be a total nobody in the real world.

For years, I've been going to GTG's, and my wife would act like she did back when I was in sales and going to networking meetings - "how was the meeting, honey? Did you make any good contacts?"

She didn't "get it" until she walked in to DistrictTime last year, and saw the "sponsored by Janis Trading" signage everywhere, and the guys crowded into our room, to meet me and see the watches (let's not argue over which was their primary objective).

I could see it in her face, "OMG, these a-holes think he's awesome. He'll be even more of an a$$ around the house now."

I try to take joy in those little things. That look on her face will warm my bones in my old age.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

...









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I generally stear clear of the texture on the dial but that looks pretty nice.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

Has any Nacken owners experienced a bezel alignment issue from wear? Mine is a half click off alignment, also showing a few scratches. I am looking for a lumed black replacement. Mainly for the fact that I need a backup bezel or insert to put on in the case that it gets bent/damaged during the removal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tim_herremans said:


> Has any Nacken owners experienced a bezel alignment issue from wear? Mine is a half click off alignment, also showing a few scratches. I am looking for a lumed black replacement. Mainly for the fact that I need a backup bezel or insert to put on in the case that it gets bent/damaged during the removal.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://nthwatches.com/apps/help-center#!do-you-sell-replacement-parts


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

tim_herremans said:


> Has any Nacken owners experienced a bezel alignment issue from wear? Mine is a half click off alignment, also showing a few scratches. I am looking for a lumed black replacement. Mainly for the fact that I need a backup bezel or insert to put on in the case that it gets bent/damaged during the removal.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


pretty sure they(NTH) doesn't offer bezel's that aren't stainless it's one of the downsides of stainless. I must say though that the look of the stainnless almost feels like a matte ceramic in appearnce.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

“I’ll sell you a bezel for a nacken. 675, comes with a free watch”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> ...[/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190930/dbd45898a390b0e80f6a15e0fc58fcab.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


My all time fave sub!

Big textured dial fan. With the steel bezel brushing, Tudor hands and indices, and a textured strap, plus all the various colors going on, there's a lot of visual interest to be had.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Amuthini (Sep 15, 2011)

docvail said:


> Met up with an old friend for drinks at our usual hangout last night, a local, hometown bar where he goes regularly, and where we almost always run into folks we know from back in school.
> 
> Not sure why, or if I just do this unconsciously all the time now, but I found myself looking around to see what people had on their wrists.
> 
> ...


i don't think she would have believe you if you told her you were looking at her apple watch anyways.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

I was misunderstood. The scratches are fine to me, its a worn watch.. it's the minor misalignment that occurred that I would prefer to fix.

I was already well aware of that fact that NTH does not have the interest in providing any part orders to their customers and because of that I am hesitant to work on the bezel. I was asking about a third party replacement that someone on here has applied to their NTH case, as that is the only option for anyone in my situation.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tim_herremans said:


> Has any Nacken owners experienced a bezel alignment issue from wear? Mine is a half click off alignment, also showing a few scratches. I am looking for a lumed black replacement. Mainly for the fact that I need a backup bezel or insert to put on in the case that it gets bent/damaged during the removal.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





docvail said:


> https://nthwatches.com/apps/help-center#!do-you-sell-replacement-parts





JLS36 said:


> pretty sure they(NTH) doesn't offer bezel's that aren't stainless *it's one of the downsides of stainless*. I must say though that the look of the stainnless almost feels like a matte ceramic in appearnce.


Apparently, it isn't...



Mikefable said:


> "I'll sell you a bezel for a nacken. 675, comes with a free watch"
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If the request was for a mod, that might be my answer.



tim_herremans said:


> I was misunderstood. The scratches are fine to me, its a worn watch.. it's the minor misalignment that occurred that I would prefer to fix.
> 
> I was already well aware of that fact that NTH does not have the interest in providing any part orders to their customers and because of that I am hesitant to work on the bezel. I was asking about a third party replacement that someone on here has applied to their NTH case, as that is the only option for anyone in my situation.


You don't need to replace the bezel insert, or the assembly.

But, this isn't the venue for requesting support.

Please use the link I provided. The contact page of the website is accessible at the bottom of our FAQ's. Reach us there, and we'll get this sorted.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Amuthini said:


> i don't think she would have believe you if you told her you were looking at her apple watch anyways.


Probably not, but "looking at your watch, because I make watches" is more plausible than "I'm hoping if I stare long enough you'll lift your shirt."


----------



## Tanker G1 (Feb 28, 2016)




----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

docvail said:


> Probably not, but "looking at your watch, because I make watches" is more plausible than "I'm hoping if I stare long enough you'll lift your shirt."


Whatever works 

Doc Savage


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Probably not, but "looking at your watch, because I make watches" is more plausible than "I'm hoping if I stare long enough you'll lift your shirt."


I think that would be less likely to set off the creeper alarm, especially if you then point to whatever NTH you're wearing and say, "I designed this. I'm kind of a big deal in parts of eastern PA."


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

someone pm me when we move from puerile back to juvenile.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

"I am known across the globe by at least dozens, maybe hundreds!" Sure to impress the wimmenz...


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

hwa said:


> someone pm me when we move from puerile back to juvenile.[/QUOTE
> 
> what are you referring to?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

hwa said:


> someone pm me when we move from puerile back to juvenile.[/QUOTE
> 
> what are you referring to


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Wow Tanker, that Devil Ray picture is freaking AWESOME!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

I bought it this way. Whomever did the insert replacement did a good job without damaging anything, except maybe the old insert, which I do not have.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Toonces said:


> Wow Tanker, that Devil Ray picture is freaking AWESOME!


Ya that white (silver, Searambler) dial is awesome.

I'm envious, but ya'll know I love this guy too.



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > Gents (and what few ladies may be daring enough to lurk in this thread)...
> ...


And Barracuda Vintage Black, with date.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Jubes









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

kpjimmy said:


> Jubes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


skx013 bracelet?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)




----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



liquidtension said:


> skx013 bracelet?


Nope , eBay or Amazon I think. It's a stamped bracelet clasp I've had for a while.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> Nope , eBay or Amazon I think. It's a stamped bracelet clasp I've had for a while.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I see, i've tried on of those. End link doesn't meet. I gave up.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



liquidtension said:


> I see, i've tried on of those. End link doesn't meet. I gave up.


Man that sucks, sorry. I wish I can remember where I got it. I'll check if I can get more details later.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> Man that sucks, sorry. I wish I can remember where I got it. I'll check if I can get more details later.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


haha that's ok  I have my beads and it's ok


----------



## 0pticalillusi0n000 (Sep 12, 2019)

hwa said:


> For NTHs, let's call it a tie:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is that MKII with what looks like inner rotating bezel and orange minute hand!? I have been looking for info on it with no luck.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I'd like to report a defect to the internet world. It's a travesty of huge proportions. My lume has leaked from the watch dial to the crown. I've alerted my states attorney. 









Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> I'd like to report a defect to the internet world. It's a travesty of huge proportions. My lume has leaked from the watch dial to the crown. I've alerted my states attorney.
> [/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191002/196350ec8a0df212ed21c745cb543059.jpg[/IMG][/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191002/cde0fa994bf3c19b8cecc4530631468e.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


I love everything about that combo. It'd be the Sub and bracelet I'd be on the hunt for if I were looking for another one 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



liquidtension said:


> haha that's ok  I have my beads and it's ok


Lol no worries! Love the BoR as well.

If any one is interested, the jubilee is a Hadely Roma and it tapers to 16 it's really drastic and I love it.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> Lol no worries! Love the BoR as well.
> 
> If any one is interested, the jubilee is a Hadely Roma and it tapers to 16 it's really drastic and I love it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Hmm. 20-16 sounds great! I may have to get one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mplsabdullah said:


> I'd like to report a defect to the internet world. It's a travesty of huge proportions. My lume has leaked from the watch dial to the crown. I've alerted my states attorney.


You're making a joke, I know, but that guy hasn't stopped.

This was posted to our FB biz page 3 hours ago...









For those who aren't in on the joke - https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/nth-bahia-disapointed-quality-issues-5033125.html

His original complaint was about the lume on the crown.

Then it was the lume on the crown, and the bracelet being mounted "backwards", whatever that means.

Now it's the lume on the crown, the bracelet was backwards, the watch was used, and it's running two minutes fast per day.

And no, we haven't been ignoring this guy's emails, which you'll see if you read that thread in the diver's watches sub-forum. We haven't heard from him since he first emailed us about the crown, weeks ago.

Sigh...I could have been selling water heaters...


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Kinda wish he'd f'29 it. I could use a Bahia.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Sigh...I could have been selling water heaters...


NEVER BUY AN NTH WATER HEATER!!!! I set the water temp to 130F, and it's actually 132F, and all they say is that 2 degrees hot is "within spec" and so they won't do anything about it. Worst water heaters ever.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Nacken with USS Theodore Roosevelt in the background. 









Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> NEVER BUY AN NTH WATER HEATER!!!! I set the water temp to 130F, and it's actually 132F, and all they say is that 2 degrees hot is "within spec" and so they won't do anything about it. Worst water heaters ever.


I LQTM'd.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> NEVER BUY AN NTH WATER HEATER!!!! I set the water temp to 130F, and it's actually 132F, and all they say is that 2 degrees hot is "within spec" and so they won't do anything about it. Worst water heaters ever.


Aw, man, did you get one without lume on the temp knob, too???


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The funny thing about leaving us a nastygram on our FB biz page? As far as I can tell, very few people actually go there, or see our posts. 

FB throttles the visibility of our posts to the biz page, because they want us to buy advertising, and pay to "boost" posts. They do the same thing to our Instagram feed. Only about 5% of our followers ever see our posts to either platform.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> Aw, man, did you get one without lume on the temp knob, too???


What I don't get is why they won't use ceramic temperature knobs instead of steel.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> What I don't get is why they won't use ceramic temperature knobs instead of steel.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Kinda wish he'd f'29 it. I could use a Bahia.


For real, I was hoping he'd put it up on eBay, so I could put a snipe bid on it.

Then again, can you imagine the $hlt-storm I'd unleash if he put it up on f29 and I sent him a lowball offer?

OMG, I won't be able to fall asleep tonight, just thinking about how awesome that would be...

Dear Lord in heaven, I don't ask for much, and everything I have asked for, you've pretty much blown off, so, here goes, one last try...

Please, please, please, make this jackwagon post that watch for sale on f29. I swear I'll stop cursing so much...well, I'll try to cut back, and I'll be nicer to my parents, and my kids, even the ginger, if you grant me this one blessing.

Amen.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Twehttam said:
> 
> 
> > Kinda wish he'd f'29 it. I could use a Bahia.
> ...


I've never laughed at prayers until I met you


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> I've never laughed at prayers until I met you


Nobody's religion is funnier than mine.

Nobody's.


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

docvail said:


> FB throttles the visibility of our posts to the biz page, because they want us to buy advertising, and pay to "boost" posts. They do the same thing to our Instagram feed. Only about 5% of our followers ever see our posts to either platform.


That's a mob-level racket right there


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

rscaletta said:


> That's a mob-level racket right there


Google's the same way.

Think about it. You want to advertise your business on YouTube, you don't pay the YouTuber creating the content, you just pay YT, owned by Google, and they pay the YT guy.

For every $1 spent on YT advertising, how much do you think the guy creating the content gets, and how much do you think Google keeps?

Same with the Google Ad network. Why do you think the big blogs, reviewers and influencers always have their hand out, looking for money or free swag from all the brands?

Maybe because Google takes the biggest portion of the ad spend and keeps it, passing just a pittance along to the people who actually create the content which makes the advertising valuable.

When I see a competitor with half as many followers, but 5 times as many likes on their posts, I *know* they're paying to boost their posts. It's obvious. I just think, "man, that must suck, to have so little uptake for your product, that you have to pay all that money, just to get people who follow you to see your posts on a 'free' network."

My annual ad budget is $0. We don't pay for press, or give away product, or do any of that $hlt. Google and FB ain't getting a dime out of me.


----------



## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

Twehttam said:


> Kinda wish he'd f'29 it. I could use a Bahia.


Wait, I was just going out there to offer to buy it!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Bidding war!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Why would you want to buy a watch with a backwards bracelet? Only veteran watchmakers in the tiniest of villages in the Swiss Alps can tackle such a task to correct. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Bahia sells because
- Bahia is dope
- out of spite
- to prove a point
- for forum yucks

Any reason is a win if current owner is a genius whose real goal was to get 'er flipped.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Alright, so...

Aside from Mr. Bad Lume Bahia, we had a contact through Facebook yesterday, who said he'd tried to reach us by the contact page on our website, but didn't get a response.

That led to taking a closer look at our spam filters. We recently implemented a new email security system, due to the avalanche of spam we'd been getting.

It seems that we missed several messages from guys legitimately looking for help. For that, I am truly sorry to any of you who've been waiting on us to reply. Julie and I went through them all today, making sure each one got a response.

FWIW, the messages weren't sitting in a folder, waiting for us to look there. They were never sent to our email. They were held on the server. For some reason, we weren't even getting the usual server messages about them possibly being spam. There was no notification at all, and no way for us to see them without going into the server and searching for them. 

So, my bad, but please understand we weren't just being stupid or lazy. We thought we were seeing everything that was coming to us, one way or the other. 

It turns out Mr. Bahia did submit the contact form a few times, rather than just replying to the email exchange we'd already had going, so we missed those, too, but there wasn't anything in them that wasn't already addressed one way or the other, or would have changed anything.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Alright, so...
> 
> Aside from Mr. Bad Lume Bahia, we had a contact through Facebook yesterday, who said he'd tried to reach us by the contact page on our website, but didn't get a response.
> 
> ...


So this is why I never got a response to any of my d*** pics.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

FYI, unless someone buys it from our store before then, the absolute last Bahia left on the planet will be on display at District Time next weekend, the 12-13th.

First 50 people to visit the NTH display will get to see the Bahia's crown lume at no charge.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> Alright, so...
> 
> Aside from Mr. Bad Lume Bahia, we had a contact through Facebook yesterday, who said he'd tried to reach us by the contact page on our website, but didn't get a response.
> 
> ...


He's still a wanker.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> FYI, unless someone buys it from our store before then, the absolute last Bahia left on the planet will be on display at District Time next weekend, the 12-13th.
> 
> First 50 people to visit the NTH display will get to see the Bahia's crown lume at no charge.


...so you keeping the lights off for the first 50 District Time attendees? Guess I'll be in late, can't trust hwa in the dark.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkND said:


> He's still a wanker.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


True enough, but you know how it goes. If the seller does anything remotely "wrong", the buyer will often use it as an excuse for all sorts of bad behavior.

He seems to expect real-time support, day or night, instant resolutions, and complete surrender by the seller if he's unhappy.

Looking at all his messages earlier today, even if I'd seen them all and responded as they were coming in, we'd still have ended up in the same place.

He wouldn't have liked any of my responses any more than he liked my first or last response. The fact that we didn't see his messages probably exacerbated the situation, but didn't cause it. Some guys just can't be made happy, no matter what we do.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteagus said:


> ...so you keeping the lights off for the first 50 District Time attendees? Guess I'll be in late, can't trust hwa in the dark.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Then you don't any part of Glen "rear naked choke" Roiland.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> FYI, unless someone buys it from our store before then, the absolute last Bahia left on the planet will be on display at District Time next weekend, the 12-13th.
> 
> First 50 people to visit the NTH display will get to see the Bahia's crown lume at no charge.


I'm camping on the 7th Street Friday night.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> NEVER BUY AN NTH WATER HEATER!!!! I set the water temp to 130F, and it's actually 132F, and all they say is that 2 degrees hot is "within spec" and so they won't do anything about it. Worst water heaters ever.


Doc could hire a factory in china to make water heaters out of elephant dung and they'd be better quality than Bradford White.

(End of rant from the guy that DOESN'T sell bradford white junk and therefore doesn't get to go on their reward trips to Jamaica. I replace a lot of them though. With whatever the F lowes or HD has.) :-d


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



92gli said:


> Doc could hire a factory in china to make water heaters out of elephant dung and they'd be better quality than Bradford White.
> 
> (End of rant from the guy that DOESN'T sell bradford white junk and therefore doesn't get to go on their reward trips to Jamaica. I replace a lot of them though. With whatever the F lowes or HD has.) :-d


Only because I'd make sure we sourced the highest quality elephant dung...


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Peteagus said:
> 
> 
> > ...so you keeping the lights off for the first 50 District Time attendees? Guess I'll be in late, can't trust hwa in the dark.
> ...


Docvail for the win.

Now that's funny as hell. Especially with no context..

But it is a rear naked choke, not a naked rear choke...


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> NEVER BUY AN NTH WATER HEATER!!!! I set the water temp to 130F, and it's actually 132F, and all they say is that 2 degrees hot is "within spec" and so they won't do anything about it. Worst water heaters ever.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Peteagus said:


> ...so you keeping the lights off for the first 50 District Time attendees? Guess I'll be in late, can't trust hwa in the dark.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wait. What?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > Alright, so...
> ...


Correction.....steamj for the win!!!


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

hwa said:


> Peteagus said:
> 
> 
> > ...so you keeping the lights off for the first 50 District Time attendees? Guess I'll be in late, can't trust hwa in the dark.
> ...


If we have to rehash it....


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> He wouldn't have liked any of my responses any more than he liked my first or last response. The fact that we didn't see his messages probably exacerbated the situation, but didn't cause it. Some guys just can't be made happy, no matter what we do.


Did you offer to go to his house and do his laundry?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Did you offer to go to his house and do his laundry?


I know you're being facetious. I'm going to be literal anyway, because it's 3am, and I'm too tired...

There really wasn't any solution I could offer, in retrospect.

He wasn't happy about the crown lume. It was present, not missing, so not a defect. Apparently he'd already had the bracelet sized and been wearing the watch, so a return for refund was no longer an option.

He said the bracelet was backwards. I assume he meant clasp. If that was true, he also said whoever sized the bracelet turned it around in the process, so...problem solved already.

He's taken to saying the watch was used. It wasn't, at least not if we believe the guys in Singapore. I've no reason not to.

He's now saying it's running 2 minutes fast. Okay, have it demagnetized, and see if that sorts it out. If not, we'll sort it out. Still waiting on him to respond.

He's railing about how bad the service was after the sale.

A) I responded to his email about the crown, politely. I missed his contact form submissions, but it was an honest mistake.

B) He was already railing about the watch and our service within hours, maybe minutes of emailing us about it.

C) He apparently saw my email response, and didn't like it, but also didn't respond to it. Even if we'd seen his contact form submissions, our responses wouldn't have pleased him.

I do my best to discourage the "thin end of the bell-curve" guys from buying from me. I think I do a pretty good job of it. Whenever I read someone's comment, saying they'd never buy from me, I know I dodged a bullet.

But, if you sell enough watches, eventually, you roll craps. We've sold over 2,000 pieces in the last 12 months. Even if only 0.5% of the buyers are complete whack-jobs, that's still 10 per year. I think we've seen maybe 5 this year, so I try to remind myself we're still beating the house most days, and not get too upset when the house wins a few.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I know you're being facetious. I'm going to be literal anyway, because it's 3am, and I'm too tired...
> 
> There really wasn't any solution I could offer, in retrospect.
> 
> ...


Yeah I'd say if a quarter of one percent of customers turn out to be impossible to please jerks, you're doing something right. I've only had one buying experience with NTH which was totally smooth so I can't really comment on your CS since I've never had to send anything back. It DID look like my modern blue had some kind of spot on the bezel insert when I first took it out of the box, but a damp paper towel took care of that. If it didn't, I knew you guys would happily take it back (unworn, of course).

Really the only minor annoyances I've had in the watch world have been with Chris Ward. One shipment took like 5 weeks to arrive. I made some jokes around here that they sent it by 17th century frigate (HMS Christopher Ward) and another time they seemingly lost my emails in their spam folder or something happened and I didn't hear back from them for a few weeks and had to go to their web contact form again to get a response. Nothing worth getting bent out of shape over. The shipment arrived (eventually) and I got the other thing sorted. I'll never understand why some people just completely lose their sh*t over stuff like that.

I am however deeply disappointed that they discontinued all of their XS length QR straps, which has lowered the available supply of such straps by about 95% since almost nobody else offers them aside from Meyhofer, Strapsco, and Watch Gecko. I'm glad I got my pile of oaks and shell cordovans when I did, but now they're all irreplaceable. :-|


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Tell me again about the time that customer was a jackhammer and you tried to help but missed some emails to your website customer support line and he got mad and flamed you here there and everywhere but added to his original tales of woe and then you kicked him off Facebook after he was tossed from WUS and then you WOT WOT WOT everywhere you’re allowed to post and just couldn’t ever stop even though you know you know you know 1% of customers are absolute asshammers but folks here love you anyway :gasp: we love that story. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sideways2 (Dec 1, 2016)

ROFL!!!

Brilliant


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

hwa said:


> Tell me again about the time that customer was a jackhammer and you tried to help but missed some emails to your website customer support line and he got mad and flamed you here there and everywhere but added to his original tales of woe and then you kicked him off Facebook after he was tossed from WUS and then you WOT WOT WOT everywhere you're allowed to post and just couldn't ever stop even though you know you know you know 1% of customers are absolute asshammers but folks here love you anyway :gasp: we love that story.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope. This wins , for sure.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Tell me again about the time that customer was a jackhammer and you tried to help but missed some emails to your website customer support line and he got mad and flamed you here there and everywhere but added to his original tales of woe and then you kicked him off Facebook after he was tossed from WUS and then you WOT WOT WOT everywhere you're allowed to post and just couldn't ever stop even though you know you know you know 1% of customers are absolute asshammers but folks here love you anyway :gasp: we love that story.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Head or gut?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I’ll get back to you on that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tjcdas (Mar 12, 2018)

docvail said:


> I know you're being facetious. I'm going to be literal anyway, because it's 3am, and I'm too tired...
> 
> There really wasn't any solution I could offer, in retrospect.
> 
> ...


It goes both ways I have purchased watches from many manufactures and about .05 are complete wack-jobs.

I have only come across one complete whack-job manufacure in my lifetime.:-db-)


----------



## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

3WR said:


> Regarding Ms. Apple, she probably didn't know she was dealing with an important person.





docvail said:


> It is kind of strange to be "internet famous" among watch geeks, but to be a total nobody in the real world.
> 
> I could see it in her face, "OMG, these a-holes think he's awesome.


Next time, just wear this. It will properly convey the right message and for those silly enough to question you, a quick point to the shirt does the trick.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

skyefalcon6 said:


> 3WR said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that being the spirit animal of a group of watch nerds grants anybody status in the real world. b-) Was a call back to the time a random customer support person thought she was talking to the man behind her son's favorite watch brand - MVMT.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that being the spirit animal of a group of watch nerds grants anybody status in the real world. b-) Was a call back to the time a random customer support person thought she was talking to the man behind her son's favorite watch brand - MVMT.


I was picking up what you were putting down.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

skyefalcon6 said:


> 3WR said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding Ms. Apple, she probably didn't know she was dealing with an important person.
> ...


"I'm HIND of a big deal"?!?
That shirt needs a better font choice. 
?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Tikuna takes flight..









Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

NICE!


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

JLS36 said:


> Tikuna takes flight..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tikuna Flieger!

Doc Savage


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> Tikuna takes flight..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Harvard?


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Has anyone tried the 22mm beads of rice bracelet on a devil Ray?


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

JLS36 said:


> Tikuna takes flight..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From walking up to the plane to airborne in 10 minutes? That seems pretty quick.

Rad photos!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> I was picking up what you were putting down.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Yeah, was pretty sure you were.

Keeping up with the twists and turns in this thread is a fun waste of limited memory. Sort of like movie quotes.

Ned: "Ah, Dusty! Infamous is when you're more than famous! This [_NTH_] guy is not just famous, he's IN-famous!"


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Taking the NTH Odin to Geneva for a quick visit. Took an early flight with a spectacular sunrise.










Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Great sunrise pic. Have a smooth flight.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

3WR said:


> From walking up to the plane to airborne in 10 minutes? That seems pretty quick.
> 
> Rad photos!


Small private airport, plane flew earlier in the day, it was on taxiway and ready to go.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Has anyone tried the 22mm beads of rice bracelet on a devil Ray?


I tried an Uncle Seiko BoR. Documented the effort extensively in this thread. Was a fail due to the end links just not fitting.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

ck2k01 said:


> I tried an Uncle Seiko BoR. Documented the effort extensively in this thread. Was a fail due to the end links just not fitting.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wonder if the Antilles BoR would fit..... Im not afraid of a dremel


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

ck2k01 said:


> I tried an Uncle Seiko BoR. Documented the effort extensively in this thread. Was a fail due to the end links just not fitting.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wonder if the Antilles BoR would fit..... Im not afraid of a dremel


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I wonder if the Antilles BoR would fit..... Im not afraid of a dremel


I support this 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I wonder if the Antilles BoR would fit..... Im not afraid of a dremel


A 20mm end-link on a case with 22mm lugs?

You'll need more than a Dremel.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> A 20mm end-link on a case with 22mm lugs?
> 
> You'll need more than a Dremel.


Duct tape?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I wonder if the Antilles BoR would fit..... Im not afraid of a dremel


I aint afraid of no dremel!

Who you gonna call?

Dremel busters!


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Rhorya said:


> I aint afraid of no dremel!
> 
> Who you gonna call?
> 
> Dremel busters!


If you screw it up just tell NTH management that it showed up that way. Blame fedex or someone. Make sure you make a thread here and some facebook posts, etc. showing your outrage. Court of public opinion will assure you get a refund. A watch should really be able to hold up to a little dremel work anyways. Its just all that fine print stuff those watch company fat cats put on their websites to abuse us common folk.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Would like to hear the doctor's take on the rapid rise and fall of Silver Watch Co. They cite the perfect storm of orange man, paypal and movement brokers. Seems to me that 2 of the 3 could have been handled by politely asking customers for a little more money. Nonetheless, they just refunded peoples $ and explained after.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Would like to hear the doctor's take on the rapid rise and fall of Silver Watch Co. They cite the perfect storm of orange man, paypal and movement brokers. Seems to me that 2 of the 3 could have been handled by politely asking customers for a little more money. Nonetheless, they just refunded peoples $ and explained after.


Uhm....what?

What happened? What did I miss?


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Refunded all Archetype 1.2 pre-orders and are reevaluating their business model due to tariffs, payment processing and movement costs.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Twehttam said:


> Refunded all Archetype 1.2 pre-orders and are reevaluating their business model due to tariffs, payment processing and movement costs.


Very interesting


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> Duct tape?


And Liquid Metal


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

92gli said:


> Would like to hear the doctor's take on the rapid rise and fall of Silver Watch Co. They cite the perfect storm of orange man, paypal and movement brokers. Seems to me that 2 of the 3 could have been handled by politely asking customers for a little more money. Nonetheless, they just refunded peoples $ and explained after.


I said it in the MWW thread. Maybe it bears repeating.

There's a tendency in the microbrand world toward a "march to zero" pricing policy, where, when people complain about a model or brand as too expensive, the brand unwisely cut their margin a bit more in order to lower prices.

Thing is, that margin is what keeps the lights on and doors open; the difference between a company being able to weather changes in circumstances, and having to go the route Silver is taking. Or MWW, for that matter.

In the normal business world, part of that margin is called overhead. In the red-sea microbrand universe, it's called greedy owners profiting off the backs of poor watch enthusiasts.

I see comments like, "They could have asked for a few bucks more to cover these things! They could have switched to a different movement!" But historically, take a look at other ventures which have done such things, mid-campaign -- you get supporters looking to crucify them, threatening to launch class action suits, and such.

Could be the beginning of the shake out Doc has predicted in the past... which was based only on a shortage of movement availability and subsequent rise in pricing, nevermind the unforeseen circumstances of a global trade war and policy changes of PP.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> I see comments like, "They could have asked for a few bucks more to cover these things! They could have switched to a different movement!" But historically, take a look at other ventures which have done such things, mid-campaign -- you get supporters looking to crucify them, threatening to launch class action suits, and such.


This was their 2nd run and they never used kickstarter, it was just pre-orders.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Refunded all Archetype 1.2 pre-orders and are reevaluating their business model due to tariffs, payment processing and movement costs.











A lot to unpack there...bottom line, sounds like they weren't charging enough for the product.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I said it in the MWW thread. Maybe it bears repeating.
> 
> There's a tendency in the microbrand world toward a "march to zero" pricing policy, where, when people complain about a model or brand as too expensive, the brand unwisely cut their margin a bit more in order to lower prices.
> 
> ...


If only there was someone who ran a successful microbrand willing to teach others all they needed to know to share similar results, to include pricing theory and strategy...


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Wasn’t Silver’s logistics handled by MWW? Could the pending sun setting of MWW have something to do with Silver closing shop?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Wasn't Silver's logistics handled by MWW? Could the pending sun setting of MWW have something to do with Silver closing shop?


It wasn't cited among the reasons in that message Silver sent out.

PS - I meant to say, "possibly, but...it wasn't cited..."

There's plenty of opportunity for speculation. I just see it as too-low pricing is too-low pricing, no matter how you get there.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Could be the high tide of micro brands has peaked and those who haven't planned for this contingency will be high and dry and gasping for air.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> It wasn't cited among the reasons in that message Silver sent out.
> 
> PS - I meant to say, "possibly, but...it wasn't cited..."
> 
> There's plenty of opportunity for speculation. I just see it as too-low pricing is too-low pricing, no matter how you get there.


What happened to the cincy strap works guy who was going to release the Tudor homages?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> What happened to the cincy strap works guy who was going to release the Tudor homages?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I am pretty sure Zach still has something in the works.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Felt like a long time since I posted here. Here's my scorpene


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)




----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Don't call it comeback, I've been here for years









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## andyjohnson (Oct 5, 2018)

liquidtension said:


> Felt like a long time since I posted here. Here's my scorpene
> View attachment 14532083


That's a beauty! Hoping to see another run of these get built soon!


----------



## Ratfacedgit (Dec 27, 2011)

~


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Been a while since I've had a sub.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

...









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

andyjohnson said:


> That's a beauty! Hoping to see another run of these get built soon!


I think they will restock sometime next year only...


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

SteamJ said:


> Been a while since I've had a sub.
> 
> View attachment 14533209


Congrats! Love the Skipjack. And it took me opening this thread a handful of times to see the 9015. |>


----------



## andyjohnson (Oct 5, 2018)

liquidtension said:


> I think they will restock sometime next year only...


Thanks! I only learned about the Scorpene recently but I'll definitely be watching!


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Twehttam said:


> Congrats! Love the Skipjack. And it took me opening this thread a handful of times to see the 9015. |>


I've actually been waiting to have another watch with a Miyota 9015 to take this picture in our warehouse.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> I am pretty sure Zach still has something in the works.
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


I can't answer for Zach. I'm not Zach. If peeps want to know Zach's plans, they should ask Zach, not me.

He came to me for some advice before he started. I gave him the advice he asked for, and then some. But I'm not going to tell tales out of school by revealing what we discussed.

I haven't talked to him in a while. I honestly don't know what his current thinking is.


----------



## ddru (Mar 2, 2018)

Doc, any plans for a ghosted gray bezel / black dial?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ddru said:


> Doc, any plans for a ghosted gray bezel / black dial?


Besides the new amphion, you mean?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ddru (Mar 2, 2018)

Love the Amphion but meaning a "vintage" ghosted gray bezel. Not straight stainless


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

ddru said:


> Love the Amphion but meaning a "vintage" ghosted gray bezel. Not straight stainless


Doc does the steel ones you've seen; he's not going to make any aluminum ones, and I've never heard tell of any way to "ghost" his steel ones.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Autumn is really kicking in now. Wearing my Santa Fe on Jubilee for the next few days.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## MLsims (Dec 29, 2018)

What is the B&H on this model? I've never seen that on an NTH watch before.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

MLsims said:


> What is the B&H on this model? I've never seen that on an NTH watch before.


Part of this group I believe: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/brotherhood-submariner-homages-k-bsht-part-36-a-5039271.html


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

MLsims said:


> What is the B&H on this model? I've never seen that on an NTH watch before.


Hello MLsims, this was a limited edition one time only production of 40 pieces for the BSH group (Brotherhood of Submariner Homages). It was called the Carolina to memorialize one of the members spouse who passed away due to cancer way too early in life. Doc Vail was very kind to take on this project and allow the BSH logo to share space on the NTH dial. If you ever see one of these for sale it will be a rare thing indeed as these are very coveted in our group. The Barracuda has a very similar gilt dial look as this one, so if you like the look of the gilt I'd look at one of those.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MLsims said:


> What is the B&H on this model? I've never seen that on an NTH watch before.


Edit.

Rhory beat me to it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.









Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

Rhorya said:


> Hello MLsims, this was a limited edition one time only production of 40 pieces for the BSH group (Brotherhood of Submariner Homages). It was called the Carolina to memorialize one of the members spouse who passed away due to cancer way too early in life. Doc Vail was very kind to take on this project and allow the BSH logo to share space on the NTH dial. If you ever see one of these for sale it will be a rare thing indeed as these are very coveted in our group. The Barracuda has a very similar gilt dial look as this one, so if you like the look of the gilt I'd look at one of those.


I didn't know that's where the name came from. As one of the few who has acquired this watch secondhand it continues to feel more special by the day as I learn more of its story.

It really is beautiful, even at PHL which is not. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

mplsabdullah said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love this one. That Nacken Vintage White is so boss, baby. I'd have to go Date because that black date wheel is perfecto. |>


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

ewhulbert said:


> I didn't know that's where the name came from. As one of the few who has acquired this watch secondhand it continues to feel more special by the day as I learn more of its story.
> 
> It really is beautiful, even at PHL which is not.
> 
> ...


Yup, she's beautiful. One will weave its way into my life one day...


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I didn't know that backstory either. Thanks for posting that, Rhorya.

And yeah, PHL is definitely the suck.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

ewhulbert said:


> I didn't know that's where the name came from. As one of the few who has acquired this watch secondhand it continues to feel more special by the day as I learn more of its story.
> 
> It really is beautiful, even at PHL which is not.
> 
> ...


Youre welcome! Enjoy the watch! We keep a list of all 40 owners, ill pass your name along to the list keeper, what number do you have?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ddru said:


> Doc, any plans for a ghosted gray bezel / black dial?


No plans. I don't know if that's possible with a steel insert.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Interesting release from Ball. Sapphire glass bezel with trit tubes under it. They've never done that before (has anyone)? Also, since it's ETA powered, those ugly day-date wheels could be swapped for black ones.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Interesting release from Ball. Sapphire glass bezel with trit tubes under it. They've never done that before (has anyone)? Also, since it's ETA powered, those ugly day-date wheels could be swapped for black ones.
> 
> View attachment 14540557


wow that's fantastic looking.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Interesting release from Ball. Sapphire glass bezel with trit tubes under it. They've never done that before (has anyone)? Also, since it's ETA powered, those ugly day-date wheels could be swapped for black ones.
> 
> View attachment 14540557


wow that's fantastic looking.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Interesting release from Ball. Sapphire glass bezel with trit tubes under it. They've never done that before (has anyone)? Also, since it's ETA powered, those ugly day-date wheels could be swapped for black ones.
> 
> View attachment 14540557


I believe that's a Gnomon limited edition. I also received the e-mail from them, but it's not on Ball's own website. Ball make really nice watches, and I still have one of the 4 I've owned. I love the tritium, but their latest releases have all been on the "more popular" larger sizes, especially their GMT models. Regardless, it's a nice, well-made piece, and priced accordingly at $1790 USD...


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

One of the eternal mysteries of life:

Why do random watches from other companies get discussed on the NTH thread??


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

First day with new Crown & Buckle Chevron strap on my Swaardvis. I like it! Very comfortable (more so than most Natos) and I think the color and PVD hardware match the bezel nicely. 




















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Avo said:


> One of the eternal mysteries of life:
> 
> Why do random watches from other companies get discussed on the NTH thread??


Doc asked the same question. I actually think it's because this thread has become a mini-forum with it's own life. And because most of what's posted is a gentle not-so-subtle attempt to make sure Doc sees it, so it has a chance at getting produced for less than $1790 USD...

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Doc asked the same question. I actually think it's because this thread has become a mini-forum with it's own life. And because most of what's posted is a gentle not-so-subtle attempt to make sure Doc sees it, so it has a chance at getting produced for less than $1790 USD...
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


Yeah that's my feeling on it. The people here are both NTH fans and watch fans in general, and it's a cool watch, and the tritium tubes in the dive bezel make it really unique. Non Chris Wards get talked about on the Chris Ward forums all the time, for example. Nothing wrong with that. I didn't post it with the intent of getting Doc to comment on it, and I already know his feeling on tritium, which is about as likely to appear on an NTH watch as ceramic bezels are. Just thought it was interesting, and also quite pretty especially by Ball diver standards which generally are not. Carry on


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Not a Ball. But just as nice, if not nicer...









And on a related note, for some reason, if I post a photo from my phone, iPad, or desktop, the forum will randomly tilt the photo based on the source. Meaning it looks good from the phone, but flipped from the desktop. And even when I "preview" the post, sometimes it flips after I fix it. Anyone else notice that, and have a solution?


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

I currently have three NTH Subs in my possession, all on aftermarket straps. All are Rolex style, 20-16mm taper and super cheap Chinese. What do you think?










Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

Thanks to a fit of impulsiveness and an eBay seller willing to accept a lowball offer, I have a Tikuna on the way! I couldn't get that freaky little mash-up of Oris Sixty-Five meets vintage Russian diver out of my mind.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Doc,

Wanted to ask you what’s down the pipeline (as far as NTH Subs are concerned)?

After the Amphion Commando, the Tikuna and the Vanguard....what’s next?

Need the next set of homages

;-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> Interesting release from Ball. Sapphire glass bezel with trit tubes under it. They've never done that before (has anyone)? Also, since it's ETA powered, those ugly day-date wheels could be swapped for black ones.
> 
> View attachment 14540557


Pretty sure Ball has done this before. DeepBlue has, also. But this one is def a cool watch.

Doc Savage


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> I currently have three NTH Subs in my possession, all on aftermarket straps. All are Rolex style, 20-16mm taper and super cheap Chinese. What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice variety. I especially like the left watch and bracelet combo.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

So... I apologize in advance if I missed this information somewhere back in the pages of discussion about how a guy didn't like his watch, or about how Doc went to a bar and looked at a girl once, but has there been any update on the "October-ish" estimate of the next BoR production?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> Pretty sure Ball has done this before. DeepBlue has, also. But this one is def a cool watch.
> 
> Doc Savage


Yep, you're right. Several actually. For some reason I thought that they had always used SL on the bezels prior to this, but nope.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Sussa said:


> Thanks to a fit of impulsiveness and an eBay seller willing to accept a lowball offer, I have a Tikuna on the way! I couldn't get that freaky little mash-up of Oris Sixty-Five meets vintage Russian diver out of my mind.


Congrats. I had a similar experience this week. Stumbled on a just posted for sale ad for what I think was a really good deal on a sub I'd told myself I'd consider under those circumstances.

Then very soon after, I think I saw the eBay Tikuna you bought. The photos were flattering for sure. If you don't mind saying, what lowball offer worked?

Update: Just noticed Ebay sent me one of those reverse seller to watcher (I guess) offers for the Tikuna this morning.


----------



## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Omegafanboy said:


> I currently have three NTH Subs in my possession, all on aftermarket straps. All are Rolex style, 20-16mm taper and super cheap Chinese. What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Were they all listed for subs? What is the bracelet on the Odin?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That Ball watch is nice, but tell me: does it have tritium lume in the _*crown*_?

LOL. Carry on.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Porterjrm said:


> Where they all listed for subs? What is the bracelet on the Odin?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The braclet on the Odin is a President.

As for whether they were listed for subs, some were and some weren't. I just went looking for 20mm curved end link bracelets on Aliexpress and bought a few different styles. All of them are based on original Rolex design though, so that is obviously the intent.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

3WR said:


> Congrats. I had a similar experience this week. Stumbled on a just posted for sale ad for what I think was a really good deal on a sub I'd told myself I'd consider under those circumstances.
> 
> Then very soon after, I think I saw the eBay Tikuna you bought. The photos were flattering for sure. If you don't mind saying, what lowball offer worked?
> 
> Update: Just noticed Ebay sent me one of those reverse seller to watcher (I guess) offers for the Tikuna this morning.


Yes, that's the one. I countered the offer sent to watchers with $475 and received an immediate automatic rejection. I tried $500 and also got an immediate rejection. About an hour later, I received a notification that the seller had accepted my offer of $500. Average selling price of a used sub, sure, but this is supposedly new and unworn. Not sure why the seller is willing to accept that for what appears to be a new, unwrapped watch that could be returned for full purchase price but I'm not complaining.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

For $500 you get more for your buck selling here in WUS with PayPal than through eBay, I would think -- from the seller's perspective.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Sussa said:


> Yes, that's the one. I countered the offer sent to watchers with $475 and received an immediate automatic rejection. I tried $500 and also got an immediate rejection. About an hour later, I received a notification that the seller had accepted my offer of $500. Average selling price of a used sub, sure, but this is supposedly new and unworn. Not sure why the seller is willing to accept that for what appears to be a new, unwrapped watch that could be returned for full purchase price but I'm not complaining.


Sounds like a win. Especially if you were already going to be buying one.

Thanks for the play by play. Interesting to hear how those work. I assume there are some pre-set limits that generate the automatic accept/rejects. And I suppose the seller has a chance to review responses and accept at their discretion. Good for you for not countering up until you got an auto acceptance. |>


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Tanjecterly said:


> For $500 you get more for your buck selling here in WUS with PayPal than through eBay, I would think -- from the seller's perspective.


Well, yeah. Assuming anyone here actually buys it for $500. people browsing f29 seem to be a lot less willing to buy things of late compared to people on ebay.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Well, yeah. Assuming anyone here actually buys it for $500. people browsing f29 seem to be a lot less willing to buy things of late compared to people on ebay.


Eh, it depends. My old Zodiac sat for a long time in the FS section, with just a couple of low ball offers. On eBay I got exactly what I wanted for it straight away. I seem to have better luck with retail brands on eBay, and micro brands in the WUS FS section.


----------



## ancap95 (Aug 26, 2019)

Davekaye90 said:


> Interesting release from Ball. Sapphire glass bezel with trit tubes under it. They've never done that before (has anyone)? Also, since it's ETA powered, those ugly day-date wheels could be swapped for black ones.
> 
> View attachment 14540557


I had no idea anyone did tritium on the bezel. thanks for posting.


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Omegafanboy said:


> Autumn is really kicking in now. Wearing my Santa Fe on Jubilee for the next few days.


Seeing this posted the other day at about the same time my most recent purchase came in, got me wondering if there was a particular source of inspiration for the mix of black and lumed indices on the Santa Fe Doc?

I vaguely recall seeing this configuration on a older watch other than the Citizen (a Zodiac?)...


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Omegafanboy said:


> I currently have three NTH Subs in my possession, all on aftermarket straps. All are Rolex style, 20-16mm taper and super cheap Chinese. What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are the end links solid on the presidential bracelet and if so where did you find it? All three look fantastic. I love the look of the 20/16 taper. Prefer it, in fact.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Ian_61 said:


> Seeing this posted the other day at about the same time my most recent purchase came in, got me wondering if there was a particular source of inspiration for the mix of black and lumed indices on the Santa Fe Doc?
> 
> I vaguely recall seeing this configuration on a older watch other than the Citizen (a Zodiac?)...
> 
> View attachment 14544651


I believe that the inspiration was actually a Tag Hueur from the 1980's but I cannot remember the model. @hwa would know better.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Omegafanboy said:


> I believe that the inspiration was actually a Tag Hueur from the 1980's but I cannot remember the model. @hwa would know better.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Heuer Night Diver.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I can tell you the inspiration for the skeleton hands: 3/6/9 indices.

As for the rest, i recall doc pointing to an old heuer or zodiac or such

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

^ x3

Yup.










Saw a little Timothy Dalton Bond action.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Thanks for the responses all! 👍


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

NTH Amphion Commando. The butcher's choice.


----------



## jelliottz (Dec 10, 2012)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheJohnP (Jan 28, 2010)

Curious as to Doc's thoughts on the new Atelier movement? Would it be an option for a future NTH model?









http://www.tempusfugit.watch/2019/10/boom.html?m=1


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

TheJohnP said:


> Curious as to Doc's thoughts on the new Atelier movement? Would it be an option for a future NTH model?
> 
> View attachment 14545921
> 
> ...


The extra height over the 9015 I'm guessing would make it a non-starter for future Subs. Then there's just the question of "is this thing reliable?" The 9015 is a known quantity, and it's the Toyota Camry of watch movements. That's hard to argue against.


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

Just back from District Time, enjoyed meeting Doc, and now enjoying my NTH lume torch!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

At the Texas Renaissance festival waiting for my kid in Sherwood Forest









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ewhulbert (Jun 14, 2019)

Rhorya said:


> Youre welcome! Enjoy the watch! We keep a list of all 40 owners, ill pass your name along to the list keeper, what number do you have?


I'm pretty sure they already know; I was welcomed to BSH with stroopwaffles when I bought #3 from Randy over the summer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> ^ x3
> 
> Yup.
> 
> ...


Well spotted. I never mentioned the Bond connection, but you are correct. Once again, we find the connection between the Subs and Bond.

Dalton wasn't a terrible Bond, but he was a better grocer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteagus said:


> Just back from District Time, enjoyed meeting Doc, and now enjoying my NTH lume torch!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What the hell?

Why does no one introduce themselves as "______, from WUS"?

I gotta find out we met...like this?

Do people think I'm going to follow them home or something?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> At the Texas Renaissance festival waiting for my kid in Sherwood Forest
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If it was really the Texas Renaissance festival you'd be waiting for your kid in the Alamo.

The stars at night, are clear and bright...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Well spotted. I never mentioned the Bond connection, but you are correct. Once again, we find the connection between the Subs and Bond.
> 
> Dalton wasn't a terrible Bond, but he was a better grocer.
> 
> View attachment 14546891


Had a Santa Fe a ways back. Fully lumed dial are quirky cool. I liked it a lot. So I did some research on the old night swimmers and came across the Dalton Bond sighting.

I liked Dalton a lot as Bond. His were the first Bond films that really grabbed my interest as a kid. The first guy to play him moodier/darker. Sadly he always ends up squarely in the fourth or fifth spot vis-a-vis Brosnan, but I'd actually put him third (Connery/Craig tie > Dalton > Moore/Brosnan tie).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Had a Santa Fe a ways back. Fully lumed dial are quirky cool. I liked it a lot. So I did some research on the old night swimmers and came across the Dalton Bond sighting.
> 
> I liked Dalton a lot as Bond. His were the first Bond films that really grabbed my interest as a kid. The first guy to play him moodier/darker. Sadly he always ends up squarely in the fourth or fifth spot vis-a-vis Brosnan, but I'd actually put him third (Connery/Craig tie > Dalton > Moore/Brosnan tie).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wasn't big on Bond movies until Craig's.

The Moore films were the first I remember as a kid, and although they seemed cool at the time, looking back, they were all so campy. Dalton's were darker/grittier, but not really great films. Brosnan should have been a great Bond, but those films were also campy, and kind of terrible.

Craig's portrayal is suitably dark for the times, but the films are just better made now, IMO.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I wasn't big on Bond movies until Craig's.
> 
> The Moore films were the first I remember as a kid, and although they seemed cool at the time, looking back, they were all so campy. Dalton's were darker/grittier, but not really great films. Brosnan should have been a great Bond, but those films were also campy, and kind of terrible.
> 
> Craig's portrayal is suitably dark for the times, but the films are just better made now, IMO.


I saw the Dalton Bonds as a kid, but the ones I actually remember growing up are the Brosnans. GoldenEye was....okay...but they got progressively worse after that, with the last one, The World Is Not Enough, being absolute trash. Craig's movies have been decent, but I didn't see the one that everyone seems to hate, Quantum Solace. I did think Spectre was a significant drop in quality compared to Skyfall though. It also probably doesn't help that Craig himself basically hates playing the character at this point.


----------



## azsuprasm (Nov 25, 2011)

Dalton? No, the name is Pricklepants.

Mister Pricklepants.


----------



## OhDark30 (Oct 2, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*









The Living Daylights is the best Bond*
Didn't notice the watch, was too busy ogling the aircraft




*imho ;-)


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> What the hell?
> 
> Why does no one introduce themselves as "______, from WUS"?
> 
> ...


He was with me, so he legit had reason to worry

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> He was with me, so he legit had reason to worry
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Notice I was too gentleman to point out you brought a bodyguard with you...


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> Notice I was too gentleman to point out you brought a bodyguard with you...


I kinda expected to be recognized by my hairy arms.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> ... the Brosnans. GoldenEye was....okay...but they got progressively worse after that, with the last one, The World Is Not Enough, being absolute trash...


Are we just going to pretend Die Anothe Day never happened?










This one rates very high in both awfulness and rewatchability.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Got to try on the Ghost this weekend at the watch show. Been wanting to see that watch in person since it came out. My favorite NTH that I saw though was the Vanguard. Pictures don't do that watch justice. I was only able to make it on Sat but spent a few hours there and tried on lots of watches. Hopefully it was worth it to the companies to be there so that there will be more of these events.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> ^ x3
> 
> Yup.
> 
> ...


I knew there was a reason it looks so good on the jubilee. I must have seen pictures in the past and it stuck in the back of my mind.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Well spotted. I never mentioned the Bond connection, but you are correct. Once again, we find the connection between the Subs and Bond.
> 
> Dalton wasn't a terrible Bond, but he was a better grocer.
> 
> View attachment 14546891


Great movie, and perfect casting!

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Dude. You were wearing a vest. What'd you think I was going to do?



docvail said:


> Notice I was too gentleman to point out you brought a bodyguard with you...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Dude. You were wearing a vest. What'd you think I was going to do?


I have no response to this.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Close the thread. I win. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Close the thread. I win.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe it's time?

I mean...>16,000 posts. Maybe it's time for a new one?


----------



## blakadder (Oct 6, 2017)

DO IT!

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Close it on Hwa’s triumph? Nah.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

hwa said:


> Close the thread. I win.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Doc does live in PA. They seem to like their vests over that way...










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

The thread lives on......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Gosh darn it. Pics like that are going to force me to buy hwa's abomination. And I have the itch today.

Still got that Bahia, Doc?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Gosh darn it. Pics like that are going to force me to buy hwa's abomination. And I have the itch today.
> 
> Still got that Bahia, Doc?


Nope, but Watch Gauge does.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

ck2k01 said:


> Doc does live in PA. They seem to like their vests over that way...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's not a vest it's a tank top for gawds sake......


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> That's not a vest it's a tank top for gawds sake......


Sweater vests...










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



yankeexpress said:


>


I forget, was that the Santa Fe I had? I remember I never punched the lume out of the aftermarket hands.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> I forget, was that the Santa Fe I had? I remember I never punched the lume out of the aftermarket hands.


Probably, I searched my records to no avail, but I remember that the sweep second hand was not swapped out, the lollipop being OEM NTH sweep hand.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Thunderball was best. Period. Probably to many dive watches to count.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



yankeexpress said:


> Probably, I searched my records to no avail, but I remember that the sweep second hand was not swapped out, the lollipop being OEM NTH sweep hand.


In any case, such a sweet watch 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Tanjecterly said:


> Close it on Hwa's triumph? Nah.


At least you recognize winning when you see it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Seikogi said:


> .


Nice watch, but what did that poor coffee ever do to you? Nothing but coffee in my coffee.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

MikeyT said:


> Nice watch, but what did that poor coffee ever do to you? Nothing but coffee in my coffee.


i thought it was obvious, coffee and milk are yin & yang, the universe needs balance, so does my cup


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> i thought it was obvious, coffee and milk are yin & yang, the universe needs balance, so does my cup


I thought you were doing the Seiko caseback thing...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...FREE e-Book review time!

Do you like sci-fi? How about WWII history? Magic and mayhem?

Many friends know my favorite contemporary author is fellow watch-geek, ex-military, ex-cop, and secret-identity WUS regular, Dominic Adler. Well, I just finished his new book, Timberwolf, and it is a brilliant work of alternative history sci-fi, a true tour-de-force.

Rakish youth Axel Geist, wrongfully-convicted political prisoner compelled into military service, is recruited by an old god into a very likely suicidal scheme to avenge his lost love, thwart his country's master plan, and overthrow his own government, with the help of a cast of characters both strange and familiar, and a good bit of magic. He'll be a legendary hero - if he doesn't die first.

Bonus - it's available as a FREE download on Amazon. Highly recommend it.

Download here - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1693301709/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i0

EDIT - It may be free. It looked free until I logged into Amazon, then it was $3.99 (also as a paperback). Still, that's stupid-cheap for a good read.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> it's available as a FREE download on Amazon.
> 
> EDIT - It may be free. It looked free until I logged into Amazon, then it was $3.99 (also as a paperback). Still, that's stupid-cheap for a good read.


Not free. I checked and if I get a trial run* of Kindle Unlimited @ 2mos, no charge, I can download it for free.

*After which, if one does not cancel, it becomes a $9.99/mo subscription.

No thanks.

So, Doc, is it worth $4?


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> So...FREE e-Book review time!
> 
> Do you like sci-fi? How about WWII history? Magic and mayhem?
> 
> ...


I just downloaded the Kindle version. I've read his other books and they're good reads.


----------



## sideways2 (Dec 1, 2016)

Kindle Unlimited is the best thing since sliced bread lol!! If you read books like my wife does then $10 a month is a steal!!! It seriously that good!! I've been laughing all the way to the bank for the last couple years since I got her the subscription!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Not free. I checked and if I get a trial run* of Kindle Unlimited @ 2mos, no charge, I can download it for free.
> 
> *After which, if one does not cancel, it becomes a $9.99/mo subscription.
> 
> ...


It's ridiculously good fun at 3x the price. It's a no-brainer at $4.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

sideways2 said:


> Kindle Unlimited is the best thing since sliced bread lol!! If you read books like my wife does then $10 a month is a steal!!! It seriously that good!! I've been laughing all the way to the bank for the last couple years since I got her the subscription!!


WUS has seriously cut into my reading time, otherwise, I'd probably be on board. The other thing is, I work in trade book print production, and there's a little part of me that dies with every book I download to my phone... Ebooks = smartphone clock apps; printed/bound books = actual watches...


----------



## sideways2 (Dec 1, 2016)

Point taken... for my wife it's a way to find new authors... and when she finds ones she likes then she supports them... our house is like a library lol... there's literally books hiding in every corner!! Not sure what's going to happen in a few years when we retire and move


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> WUS has seriously cut into my reading time, otherwise, I'd probably be on board. The other thing is, I work in trade book print production, and there's a little part of me that dies with every book I download to my phone... Ebooks = smartphone clock apps; printed/bound books = actual watches...


You can buy the paperback for $11.99.


----------



## TimeOnTarget (Feb 11, 2006)

MarkND said:


> I just downloaded the Kindle version. I've read his other books and they're good reads.


I will give it a shot too. It sounds interesting.

Kindle has been a game changer for me as I travel around the globe each month for work. I could never carry all these books the old fashioned way.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

RmacMD said:


> Thunderball was best. Period. Probably to many dive watches to count.


My first Bond movie was Goldfinger, in the theater with my family. I was 9, and man, did that movie ever rustle my jimmies! Still the best Bond movie, IMO. I'm not sure what my parents were thinking.

A little known fact unless you were my age back then (and detail oriented) - the Goldfinger chewing gum trading cards listed Poosy Galore as "Goldfinger's female pilot", so as not to corrupt America's sensitive youth.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Not a fan of the Kindle since it uses proprietary file formats. I prefer epub or even pdf, both which work on my tablet and ebook reader.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

P&C on the Tikuna and Vanguard. Both of these are really gorgeous, I don't think the renders or even wrist shots really do either of them proper justice. Still though, looking down at the Diver's 65 on my wrist today, I can't help but wonder what the Tikuna would look like with a PVD bezel....


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

The Tikuna has arrived and I'm loving it!








If you've grown tired of staring at the sun and need a new way to burn your retinas, might I suggest a little quality time with this watch in a dark room? This is just with normal light exposure.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> Not a fan of the Kindle since it uses proprietary file formats. I prefer epub or even pdf, both which work on my tablet and ebook reader.


It can be a pain in the balls, but you can get .MOBI files onto your Kindle.

You have to set up your Kindle email address in your Amazon account, AND also be sure to specify the email address(es) you use to send files to your Kindle email address.

I've done it twice. Dominic was kind enough to send me a pre-press edition of this and his previous book, "Dark as Angels". Both times, I wanted to chuck my Kindle across the room trying to figure out how to get the file he sent me onto the device, but, eventually, I did figure it out.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> P&C on the Tikuna and Vanguard. Both of these are really gorgeous, I don't think the renders or even wrist shots really do either of them proper justice. Still though, looking down at the Diver's 65 on my wrist today, I can't help but wonder what the Tikuna would look like with a PVD bezel....





Sussa said:


> The Tikuna has arrived and I'm loving it!
> View attachment 14551295
> 
> 
> ...


*Fun Fact* (surprised no one's noticed and complained about it yet) - the lumed counterweight on the Tikuna's second hand is intentionally asymmetrical...









I didn't even realize it when we picked it. I don't remember discussing it with Rusty and Aaron at all. Not sure if they noticed it either.

*Not all that fun fact* - my dad at one point mentioned his desire to have me explain the functional purpose of the red lines on the dial. I'll be damned if I know that they have one. I remember seeing other dials with similar lines, but always assumed they were just decorative. Does anyone know if they have some historical significance or use?

Or, alternatively, would anyone like to try to bull$hlt me any my old man by making up some history? Be my guest.


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> Or, alternatively, would anyone like to try to bull$hlt me any my old man by making up some history? Be my guest.


The lines block off the times when it's safest to go in the water after a meal. Because most people eat lunch around noon, 2-4pm is more than enough time for lunch to digest. The lines to 8 and 10 pull double duty as the indicator for safe swim time after breakfast and dinner. We've since proven that needing to wait 30 minutes after eating to swim is a myth, so you don't see these lines on dials much these days.


----------



## watchnut69 (Dec 24, 2014)

I really like the Tikuna, it's a cool thing.



Sussa said:


> The Tikuna has arrived and I'm loving it!
> View attachment 14551295


----------



## watchnut69 (Dec 24, 2014)

Sussa said:


> The lines block off the times when it's safest to go in the water after a meal. Because most people eat lunch around noon, 2-4pm is more than enough time for lunch to digest. The lines to 8 and 10 pull double duty as the indicator for safe swim time after breakfast and dinner. We've since proven that needing to wait 30 minutes after eating to swim is a myth, so you don't see these lines on dials much these days.


With that slick load of b.s. you could have a future in politics


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sussa said:


> The lines block off the times when it's safest to go in the water after a meal. Because most people eat lunch around noon, 2-4pm is more than enough time for lunch to digest. The lines to 8 and 10 pull double duty as the indicator for safe swim time after breakfast and dinner. We've since proven that needing to wait 30 minutes after eating to swim is a myth, so you don't see these lines on dials much these days.


This thread is about to be epic...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> *Not all that fun fact* - my dad at one point mentioned his desire to have me explain the functional purpose of the red lines on the dial. I'll be damned if I know that they have one. I remember seeing other dials with similar lines, but always assumed they were just decorative. Does anyone know if they have some historical significance or use?
> 
> Or, alternatively, would anyone like to try to bull$hlt me any my old man by making up some history? Be my guest.


Your guess is as good as mine. The only factoid I know about vintage divers like that is the reason why Zodiac SSWs have little arrow markers at 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15 minutes is because that's (supposedly) the interval for timing long distance phone calls way back when. As for this one though, I don't have the foggiest idea why it's like that.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

MaxIcon said:


> My first Bond movie was Goldfinger, in the theater with my family. I was 9, and man, did that movie ever rustle my jimmies! Still the best Bond movie, IMO. I'm not sure what my parents were thinking.
> 
> A little known fact unless you were my age back then (and detail oriented) - the Goldfinger chewing gum trading cards listed Poosy Galore as "Goldfinger's female pilot", so as not to corrupt America's sensitive youth.


Goldfinger would be my #2, then a tie between You Only Live Twice and Diamonds Are Forever.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> *Fun Fact* (surprised no one's noticed and complained about it yet) - the lumed counterweight on the Tikuna's second hand is intentionally asymmetrical...
> 
> View attachment 14551369
> 
> ...


So the goofball counterweight was accidentally on purpose? I guess the same goes for the red lines. I just assumed they were intentionally referencing a design flourish popular on early grandfather clocks that featured hints of hourglass shapes (and less commonly, sundials) - either somewhere on their ornate faces or in the shapes of - or carvings in - their wooden enclosures. I guess they were kind of NTH'ing back to what was vintage to them in their time.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Sussa said:


> The Tikuna has arrived and I'm loving it!
> View attachment 14551295


Your Nato pairing game is strong. I'm over those goofy a$$ straps, but dang, that looks the business! |>


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Is this one any good?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

gilty man gilty beads...


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I realized recently, that I always read this thread. I also take pictures of my NTHs. But I never post them here. All the Tikuna love made me decide to post up the Tikuna I was wearing today. I love this watch, so quirky and cool!

As for the red lines, I believe they came about as a watch for diabetics. Blood sugar levels spike between the hours of 2-4 pm and 8-10 pm on the average diet, more so if alcohol was consumed.

These lines were designed to remind people to watch their sugar intakes during this period of the day and Also as a guideline as to when it was safe to start drinking again.

After several years of this use, methamphetamine users picked up on the guidelines and found that if they took four two hour breaks throughout the day, they could make the most of their supply and stay high the entire day, all while saving money and precious precious meth. That was until they sold their watches for more meth. The current use of the red lines is unknown, but that was all that Wikipedia could tell me.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

I love the Tikuna design, its very refreshing. The 12 - 3 - 6 - 9 remind me somewhat of the Kontiki (a watch ruined by its date window), although I am sure there are other vintage divers with even more similarities. 
Also, color combination and font are fantastic.
IMO having the 12 - 3 - 6 - 9 applied/raised in one of those vintage shapes would also be a nice concept.


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

The red lines on the Tikuna refer to the old Navy time of '8 bells and all's well'. pointer lines designate 'dog watch' period of 2 hrs. between 2-4 and 8-10. 8 bell cycles are 4 hrs., 0:30 to 04:00, 04:30 - 08:00, etc. 8 bells sound every 4 hrs; 00:00, 04:00, 08:00, so the 'first bell sounds 30 minutes into the start of each standing watch. The 'dog watch' splits are to provide a change of rotation for those standing watch to not have two nights in a row. At least that's how the very Ancient Mariner explained it to me.


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> It can be a pain in the balls, but you can get .MOBI files onto your Kindle.
> 
> You have to set up your Kindle email address in your Amazon account, AND also be sure to specify the email address(es) you use to send files to your Kindle email address.
> 
> I've done it twice. Dominic was kind enough to send me a pre-press edition of this and his previous book, "Dark as Angels". Both times, I wanted to chuck my Kindle across the room trying to figure out how to get the file he sent me onto the device, but, eventually, I did figure it out.


I downloaded the complete Ian Fleming James Bond collection from a Canadian site. I downloaded a program to convert it to a kindle compatible format, a fairly straightforward process.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

The stories y’all are trying to spin about the red lines are adorable. The truth, once known, is so obvious it’ll make you go “D’oh!” 

In the early 50’s, renowned marine biologist Jacques le’Dumas, observed feeding patterns of sharks in areas heavily dominated by Divers. 

It seems that over time, local shark populations started timing their feeding to the periods following the diver’s feeding times. It was surmised that the sharks realized that these are the periods when their prey would be fattest and, consequently, slowest. 

Jacques, ever the entrepreneur, licensed this knowledge out to the major dive watch providers of this time. 

These lines block out the period when divers should avoid the water. This would allow for divers too cheap to invest in watches with this technology to get eaten, leaving those smart enough to avoid the water to stay safe. Plus, as the dumber divers met their fate, popular dive areas would consequently be less congested, and therefor more enjoyable. 

This gave rise to the old diver saw
“Dive in the red, sharks make you dead. Dive in the clear you have nothing to fear.”

Further evidence this is true is the shape of the red zone. Note how the shape vaguely represents the top part of a coffin ...


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Sussa said:


> The Tikuna has arrived and I'm loving it!
> View attachment 14551295
> 
> 
> ...


One of the best pairings yet for the Phantom NATO!!! 

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Love that Phantom NATO!









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Is this one any good?
> 
> View attachment 14552065


I see what you did there.

But, yes, that Cal Winter trilogy was very good, IMO, albeit, the language is ENGLISH, not AMERICAN. If you read it, you'll know what I mean.

Also - Adler can be a bit of a ruthless bastard when it comes to killing off my favorite characters. I've wanted to choke him out a few times. He claims it's a sign of good character development when you get so attached to a fictional character that you're upset when they die.

I say he's just a ruthless bastard who likes killing off well developed characters.

EDIT/PS - about that trilogy - if you like dark, gritty novels about anti-hero soldiers/mercenaries/spies running around doing dangerous things with murky motivations, you'll like the Cal Winter trilogy.

If you like Jane Austen, you probably won't.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> I realized recently, that I always read this thread. I also take pictures of my NTHs. But I never post them here. All the Tikuna love made me decide to post up the Tikuna I was wearing today. I love this watch, so quirky and cool!
> 
> As for the red lines, I believe they came about as a watch for diabetics. Blood sugar levels spike between the hours of 2-4 pm and 8-10 pm on the average diet, more so if alcohol was consumed.
> 
> ...


Damn bro, that's dark.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

No Natos here, Phantom or otherwise, Just a (semi)old Amphion Dark gilt on OEM bracelet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> I love the Tikuna design, its very refreshing. The 12 - 3 - 6 - 9 remind me somewhat of the Kontiki (a watch ruined by its date window), although I am sure there are other vintage divers with even more similarities.
> Also, color combination and font are fantastic.
> IMO having the 12 - 3 - 6 - 9 applied/raised in one of those vintage shapes would also be a nice concept.


We're actually looking at doing something like that for something we're working on, and it was a challenge to figure out how to do it. I've got prototype dials being made now, so we'll see how it turns out.

The challenge is - how do you form a 3-dimensional marker to both have lume on its top surface and have a contrasting number? Usually, lumed and applied markers just have a single, unbroken surface as a lume patch, and nothing within that area which is not lumed.

Applied indices are typically solid pieces, like a block, but with a recessed top surface for the lume patch. I was thinking that they might be made more like a hollowed-out cup, but with a raised number rising up from the cup's "floor", and lume essentially poured in around it and left to dry.

But apparently that was a stupid idea, I guess, because they either didn't understand what I was saying, or it just couldn't be done.

I don't want to say how we solved the problem (assuming we have), but another of the proposed and rejected solutions was to apply a number sticker over the lume.

Stickers. Eeewwww. I can only imagine the defect rate (and the complaints) related to the stickers being off-kilter, and a horrific future of stickers peeling off and floating around under the crystal.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

First business trip with the loud orange Swaardvis. If anyone thinks it doesn't go with a suit ... too bad.








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hairy (Dec 16, 2011)

docvail said:


> We're actually looking at doing something like that for something we're working on, and it was a challenge to figure out how to do it. I've got prototype dials being made now, so we'll see how it turns out.
> 
> The challenge is - how do you form a 3-dimensional marker to both have lume on its top surface and have a contrasting number? Usually, lumed and applied markers just have a single, unbroken surface as a lume patch, and nothing within that area which is not lumed.
> 
> ...


Ive always wondered how the famous Kontiki markers were done. It sure looks like they are machined and then filled, but I guess not.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hairy said:


> Ive always wondered how the famous Kontiki markers were done. It sure looks like they are machined and then filled, but I guess not.
> 
> View attachment 14553049


I suspect the top surfaces are recessed, but with raised numbers, and the lume applied around the numbers, somewhat like my cup-shaped markers idea. But it's also possible those numbers are separate pieces, layered on top of the lume.

I'm honestly unsure how thick a liquid lume is before it dries. I've had discussions with my vendors, about some challenges involved doing some things I wanted to do, and I came away thinking that it's not all that thick when wet.

Errant lume application can cause some problems in QC. For instance, you can ruin the surface of a part trying to remove stray lume that dried there.

That, I think, is the main challenge, especially when you're not pricing in the luxury range, and therefore have to carefully manage the costs involved with tighter QC standards.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Errant lume application can cause some problems in QC. For instance, you can ruin the surface of a part trying to remove stray lume that dried there.
> 
> That, I think, is the main challenge, especially when you're not pricing in the luxury range, and therefore have to carefully manage the costs involved with tighter QC standards.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


hmm, sounds risky and is something to consider.

People will be - "oh but its applied by hand, this watch is handcrafted blabla... " on a big brand with strong following (thinking MM300) vs "bad QC on overpriced sub homage" for micros.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep 6









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Looking at the way Zodiac does it, I think the numbers are painted on? They definitely aren't metallic like those on the Eterna.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I think Le Jour is doing something similar - painting on top of the lume? I'd be curious to know how the markers were done on this old Philly. Maybe two separate pieces with the trit lume painted around the inside?


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Sussa said:


> The lines block off the times when it's safest to go in the water after a meal. Because most people eat lunch around noon, 2-4pm is more than enough time for lunch to digest. The lines to 8 and 10 pull double duty as the indicator for safe swim time after breakfast and dinner. We've since proven that needing to wait 30 minutes after eating to swim is a myth, so you don't see these lines on dials much these days.


Impressive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

Jtragic said:


> The stories y'all are trying to spin about the red lines are adorable. The truth, once known, is so obvious it'll make you go "D'oh!"
> 
> In the early 50's, renowned marine biologist Jacques le'Dumas, observed feeding patterns of sharks in areas heavily dominated by Divers.
> 
> ...


Impressiver.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)




----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

.








A Skipjack followed me home. Actually, it met me there after a few days in transit from the person who surprisingly sold it BNIB for a song.

This will be my first date model. About twice a week at work, I find myself needing to know the date when I'm not near a computer. I often wear a sub. And I often check it first before I remember mine are all dateless. Then I pull out my phone for a date check. Can't decide if the phone use is lame or cool. Lame because it looks like someone using their phone to tell time like a watchless rube. Or cool because it is a byproduct of my superior purist tastes that call for dateless dials. b-)


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

3WR said:


> .
> View attachment 14554505
> 
> 
> ...


I prefer no-date watches these days for two reasons.

1. They look more balanced

2. I can't see them anyways unless I'm wearing reading glasses 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I can be sitting in front of a computer, or holding my phone in my hand for something else, but if I have a need to confirm the date, I always glance at my watch. 

Having a date window on a watch is a necessary for me. Date-less watches = dealkiller. Which is good, since I might otherwise aspire to owning an Explorer I, but bad because I otherwise really admire the Tudor BB36. Just picked up a Hamilton Khaki Field Mechanical, with, you guessed it, a date window. Love that new Smiths Expedition release, but no date window = no deal. Had to sell a used Antilles on because it did not have a date window, and the couple of NTH subs I've picked up since then both had dates. 

Just seems like there's something missing on a watch if it does not have at least a date complication, and the few times I've worn a watch without a date, I inevitably find myself glancing at it to ascertain the date and coming away chagrined...


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

I generally prefer a no-date watch, but think that Chris' implementation of the six o'clock date window on the last few batches of subs has been superb, particularly the matching black date wheel on the Barracuda, Skipjack, etc.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

My preference is for watches with dates, but somehow my two NTH's are both no date!

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

I am more of a no date guy.

wind, set time and go........


----------



## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> Not free. I checked and if I get a trial run* of Kindle Unlimited @ 2mos, no charge, I can download it for free.
> 
> *After which, if one does not cancel, it becomes a $9.99/mo subscription.
> 
> ...


Lagging PSA on free e-books here. Head to https://www.freebookshub.com/ if you like what you see you can set up an IFTTT watcher - https://ifttt.com/ - to send you an email alert when a free book pops up. I forget what the filter options are. I just have gmail handle it. Here's my alert email on a free e-cookbook. Yes, I have kindle unlimited too, but if I get it for $0.00 then I still have it when/if I cancel all my Amazon* services. Like that's going to happen. And a watch pic from earlier in the week. Not wearing an NTH today.








.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

uvalaw2005 said:


> I generally prefer a no-date watch, but think that Chris' implementation of the six o'clock date window on the last few batches of subs has been superb, particularly the matching black date wheel on the Barracuda, Skipjack, etc.


With you I think. However when I look at a no date on my wrist I always search for the date. But 6 o'clock date is far and away my favorite location.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I have always preferred No-date, and Doc's Subs I've owned have all been this way, but am warming up to Date dials. The past two of the three watches I have purchased (and kept) have a date complication. I greatly prefer the symmetry of No-date, but am finding value in having a date on the dial. So, I can go either way - depends on the watch.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

For the most part, except for the 4:30 dates (which I don't like on any watch unless they are vertically oriented) I think Doc has integrated his date windows really well, particularly on the snowflake dials. Currently the only no-date I have is my Aevig Huldra, which is fine as that's much more of a summer weekend watch than a daily wear watch. Of all of my current collection though, the Oris is the best integrated. It simply disappears visually into the dial, but is still there when you need it. You definitely need sharper eyes to read it than if it were at 3, but I'm only 38, so I can still read 6 o'clock date windows for now  Actually, I'm sure it'll be the multi-hand Seiko cocktails that go first, they are even harder to read than a 6 o'clock date wheel.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

I like the trend and NTH is certainly on trend of vintage inspired modern watches.









Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

My first preference is the date @ 6:00, but 3:00 wouldn't be a deal breaker. 4:00 position is definitely not a favorite. My Magrette Moana PD II is a no date and I really don't miss it. The two things I can't abide, and are deal breakers, are round date windows or a cyclops. The Tikuna dial design is just so bad a$$.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

MarkND said:


> I prefer no-date watches these days for two reasons.
> 
> 1. They look more balanced
> 
> ...


I hear you. I've started to have this issue with some of my watches. I try not to throw many stones at cyclops because I think I may enjoy the easy reader aspect of them someday.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

JLS36 said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like posts like this that give me a new watch or two to go off and read up on.

Also a perfect visual aid for something I've often wondered about. And that is why NTH 4:30 date windows are (always?) round vs. rectangular like this watch that I've never heard of before. I've not handled a 4:30 date Sub, but from pictures, it often looks like the circle is small enough to cut off the corners of the date numbers. Obviously, the 4:30 placement is great for not messing with prominent hour markers. Perfect for Tikuna. And I think might work well on Bahia, Dolphin, etc.

6:00 date on Skipjack works great.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

3WR said:


> I like posts like this that give me a new watch or two to go off and read up on.
> 
> Also a perfect visual aid for something I've often wondered about. And that is why NTH 4:30 date windows are (always?) round vs. rectangular like this watch that I've never heard of before. I've not handled a 4:30 date Sub, but from pictures, it often looks like the circle is small enough to cut off the corners of the date numbers. Obviously, the 4:30 placement is great for not messing with prominent hour markers. Perfect for Tikuna. And I think might work well on Bahia, Dolphin, etc.
> 
> 6:00 date on Skipjack works great.


If you would ask me I would say I hate 4:30 dates. I do however keep buying them so I guess I don't. 6pm is my favorite but I like a date well done.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

3WR said:


> I hear you. I've started to have this issue with some of my watches. I try not to throw many stones at cyclops because I think I may enjoy the easy reader aspect of them someday.


I don't enjoy the cyclops at all.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> I hear you. I've started to have this issue with some of my watches. I try not to throw many stones at cyclops because I think I may enjoy the easy reader aspect of them someday.


IMO you're much better off with a big date watch at that point. I have a Seiko Jade Monster with a cyclops that is in the process of being gutted for one of my SKX projects. The cyclops at least on that watch is terrible. Unless you're looking _directly_ at the watch, it's *harder* to read than it would be otherwise because the number gets obscured by the bubble.


----------



## Birchgrove (Nov 12, 2011)

Todays watch, the Barracuda on a comfy leather strap.










Sent from....


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Clearly Doc has a marketing opportunity for cyclops on his NTH watches; question is -- will he take it? A lot of his customers, including me, are aging and sometimes struggle to see the date.

And I'm a date guy.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> Clearly Doc has a marketing opportunity for cyclops on his NTH watches; question is -- will he take it? A lot of his customers, including me, are aging and sometimes struggle to see the date.
> 
> And I'm a date guy.


Can you imagine the marketing opportunity to make watches without cyclopes for guys who absolutely despise them? Question is - will you recognize it? We all get old.

I used to be a date guy. Now I'm a no-date guy.

I'm not making a watch with a cyclops.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Ghostin' this tgif









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I used to be a date guy. Now I'm a no-date guy.


Well, you're married, now, so...

Plus, I hear you creep out bar staff.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Well, you're married, now, so...
> 
> Plus, I hear you creep out bar staff.


It's all true.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Can you imagine the marketing opportunity to make watches without cyclopes for guys who absolutely despise them? Question is - will you recognize it? We all get old.
> 
> I used to be a date guy. Now I'm a no-date guy.
> 
> ...


Attaboy!


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

Ok, I'm just going to throw this out there because.... I wanna. How about a cyclopes on the inside of the crystal? I've seen a couple companies do this and it doesn't look half bad. Most people hate the cyclopes because it sticks up from the crystal making it look unbalanced, traps dirt, and can catch on things. With the cyclopes on the inside, it negates all of these negatives. The only catch is, I don't know about the internal crystal height requirement needed to avoid contact with the hands.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

For what it's worth, if I have a no date option, I choose it. It just looks cleaner/minimal to me. But a date window doesn't bother me and I use it (seiko, bauhaus). (I'd also own a watch with a cyclops, but never have.)

I also am someone who would never buy a chronograph out of choice. I don't think it is a useful complication for my life and clutters the dial up with nonsense. However I do find it very intriguing mechanically.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Metallman said:


> Ok, I'm just going to throw this out there because.... I wanna. How about a cyclopes on the inside of the crystal? I've seen a couple companies do this and it doesn't look half bad. Most people hate the cyclopes because it sticks up from the crystal making it look unbalanced, traps dirt, and can catch on things. With the cyclopes on the inside, it negates all of these negatives. The only catch is, I don't know about the internal crystal height requirement needed to avoid contact with the hands.


1. Added cost, of the sort that most guys don't want to pay for. Imagine me trying to explain the watch costs $25 more because we added an internal cyclops.

2. Reduced clearance, necessitating increased case thickness.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



tim_herremans said:


> For what it's worth, if I have a no date option, I choose it. It just looks cleaner/minimal to me. But a date window doesn't bother me and I use it (seiko, bauhaus). (I'd also own a watch with a cyclops, but never have.)
> 
> I also am someone who would never buy a chronograph out of choice. I don't think it is a useful complication for my life and clutters the dial up with nonsense. However I do find it very intriguing mechanically.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I used to prefer a date. Then I turned my head around, and went no-date only, mostly because I decided I disliked setting the date more than I liked the utility of having it.

Then, my eyes started having a harder time reading it, especially the thinner numbers when you put the date at 6, compared to at 3, and I've become even MORE of a no-date guy.

I can't please everyone. I'm not pizza.

Guys wanna bltch about me putting the date at 3, and want it at 6? Okay, the date will be harder to read there, because of how the printing gets flipped, forcing taller/thinner numbers. And, I'm not adding a cyclops, because WIS generally hate them.

It's about what sells the best.

I find that I do best offering either a date or no-date, but with the date strategically placed at 6, or ~4:33ish if need be, not at 3, and not with a cyclops.

Sorry to whoever that disappoints, whatever the reason, but it ain't show-friends, it's show-BUSINESS, and I got bills to pay.


----------



## TimeOnTarget (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I used to prefer a date. Then I turned my head around, and went no-date only, mostly because I decided I disliked setting the date more than I liked the utility of having it.
> 
> Then, my eyes started having a harder time reading it, especially the thinner numbers when you put the date at 6, compared to at 3, and I've become even MORE of a no-date guy.


That is exactly what happened to me.

It is too much trouble messing around with the date when you are in Hong Kong one day and LA the next. I prefer the simplicity of time only.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



TimeOnTarget said:


> That is exactly what happened to me.
> 
> It is too much trouble messing around the date when you are in Hong Kong one day and LA the next. I prefer the simplicity of time only.


God help you if you're wearing a perpetual calendar that can't go backwards. I don't particularly mind setting the date, the only thing that's moderately annoying is swinging the hands around past 12 to see if it's AM or PM, discovering that the watch stopped at 6:42 PM and not AM, and now the date has advanced to _tomorrow's_ date, meaning I have to spin the date all the way around back to today's date. Still, doesn't happen that often, so not the end of the world, and Seiko date wheels advance extremely quickly. SW-200 wheels on the other hand take a full turn of the crown to move a single day, so _that_ would be a bit of a pain in the ass.

The in-crystal magnifier is better than the stuck on bubble, but it still looks weird at an angle, and is still nowhere near as good as a big-date.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

I dig the date. Even sitting in front of the computer I still use my watch to check the date. It’s mildly annoying having to set the date when I pick one up after a time of sitting but not annoying enough to stop using it. The first no date I ever had was a nacken and the first time I went to check the date out of habit I knew I would be flipping it for one with a date lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Can you imagine the marketing opportunity to make watches without cyclopes for guys who absolutely despise them? Question is - will you recognize it? We all get old.
> 
> I used to be a date guy. Now I'm a no-date guy.
> 
> ...


Of course youre a no-date guy. Have you looked in the mirror?

Too easy. Im out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nordlys (Jan 9, 2019)

Really loving some of the new designs. Excellent work Doc! I'm particularly fond of the dial, markers, and hands on the new Amphion.

Any chance of seeing a model with:

a.) Amphion-style dial/hands
b.) Black DLC, minimalist (no minute tick) 60 minute bezel like on the modern Näcken, and 
c.) Modern (white/blue) lume throughout

sometime in the near future (like within a year)? This would, IMO, be the perfect model.


----------



## Nordlys (Jan 9, 2019)

I guess what I'm requesting is similar to the older model Amphion from 2017 like in this video:





But without the more minimalist (tick-less) black bezel, modern silver/white lume hands and markers instead of the gilt/faux aged lume, the new style date-at-6 layout and, of course, the awesome new-style clasp. 

Love what you've done with the most recent Näcken Modern Black with the clean bezel and modern white lume, but I'm not a fan of the snowflake hands and square markers. Much prefer the sword hands and round markers.

Release an Amphion Modern Black and I would be like:


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TreeScientist said:


> Really loving some of the new designs. Excellent work Doc! I'm particularly fond of the dial, markers, and hands on the new Amphion.
> 
> Any chance of seeing a model with:
> 
> ...


Like this, more or less? Available today...









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nordlys (Jan 9, 2019)

hwa said:


> Like this, more or less? Available today...
> https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191019/4999be916bd7339c53ec427de34fc03d.jpg[IMG]
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TreeScientist said:


> Really loving some of the new designs. Excellent work Doc! I'm particularly fond of the dial, markers, and hands on the new Amphion.
> 
> Any chance of seeing a model with:
> 
> ...


I'm guessing the answer will be no, which leaves you with two options: find the closest to your ideal as you can, or get as close as you can by modding a watch.

For instance, I'd be looking for one of the new Amphions and another NTH with the bezel you prefer, buy both, swap the bezels, sell the loser.

Was actually considering this--swapping the Amphion Commando bezel over to a Scorpene, but decided I like the looks of the Amphion well enough to leave it alone.

Plus, there is allegedly a Scorpéne with 12hr bezel in the works, so...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Note: you mod your watch at your own risk. NTH does not sell small parts, so if you or someone else screws up your watch while attempting to mod it, you will be SOOL.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)




----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Remember when cars came in date and no-date?


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> swap the bezels


How hard is this to do? Anyone here done it???


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Avo said:


> How hard is this to do? Anyone here done it???


You can't swap the bezels, but you can cerakote them.

You CAN swap inserts. A few of us have done so.

And if you screw them up, its tough nuts

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TreeScientist said:


> No, not at all. Not even close.
> 
> a.) Sword hands: This has Mercedes hands.
> b.) Black BEZEL. Not entirely black case.
> ...


You should learn to distinguish between the bezel and the insert, fwiw.

And learn to mod watches. It's nbd to cerakote the bezel and swap handsets.

But, you have to be willing to take the loss.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

hwa said:


> You CAN swap inserts. A few of us have done so.
> 
> And if you screw them up, its tough nuts


Ah, bezel roulette. The original version of 'The Deerhunter' had De Niro and Walken trying to prise the bezel inserts off of old Seikos and apply new ones without screwing it up. It was too intense, they had to take the scene out and replace the watches with pistols.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Ah, bezel roulette. The original version of 'The Deerhunter' had De Niro and Walken trying to prise the bezel inserts off of old Seikos and apply new ones without screwing it up. It was too intense, they had to take the scene out and replace the watches with pistols.


Shots fired... in progress, with some help from a friend and apologies to the moflake ripoff










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

hwa said:


> You can't swap the bezels, but you can cerakote them.
> 
> You CAN swap inserts. A few of us have done so.
> 
> ...


Where do you get one cerakoted? I'm guessing you're the fella on fb that I've noticed on the nth page. I love the look of that bezel man

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Mikefable said:


> Where do you get one cerakoted? I'm guessing you're the fella on fb that I've noticed on the nth page. I love the look of that bezel man
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's likely @jelliottz. I dont FB (not judging). I am having an entire case cerakoted. I'll post it up when it arrives.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

hwa said:


> That's likely @jelliottz. I dont FB (not judging). I am having an entire case cerakoted. I'll post it up when it arrives.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Tikuna?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Where did you have it done? Just started googling and have ended up in a rabbit hole. Motor city ww seems to have great reviews but a long turnaround time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Avo said:


> How hard is this to do? Anyone here done it???


If you have two complete NTH watches, the easier route would be to leave the bezels in place, and swap everything else. Just about any watchmaker should be able to pull the movement, dial, and hands from one case and put them in the other case (with the bezel you want on it) with very minimal effort.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Mikefable said:


> Where did you have it done? Just started googling and have ended up in a rabbit hole. Motor city ww seems to have great reviews but a long turnaround time.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Watchmakers4 does it, but I imagine with all of the TGV exposure, he probably has as long of a wait/turnaround as MCWW does. Wouldn't hurt to ask though.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Davekaye90 said:


> Watchmakers4 does it, but I imagine with all of the TGV exposure, he probably has as long of a wait/turnaround as MCWW does. Wouldn't hurt to ask though.


Thanks man! Mcww said he's too busy to even do it rn lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Mikefable said:


> Where did you have it done? Just started googling and have ended up in a rabbit hole. Motor city ww seems to have great reviews but a long turnaround time.


Jay did a piece for me about three years back; great work but yeah, he's a busy guy and it took a lot of time. His cerakote work is genuinely as good as the stuff you see on his page.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Dude, just send it to hwa to do. He's the master at hacking new NTH watches from original ones!

I only know hwa from his posts on here, but he strikes me at the sort that would do it for a bottle of scotch. And not expensive scotch, like JW Red or something.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Jay did a piece for me about three years back; great work but yeah, he's a busy guy and it took a lot of time. His cerakote work is genuinely as good as the stuff you see on his page.


Jay does do nice work. He occasionally has to shut off new work, though in order to get caught up. I bought a couple of first gen Monsters that he had done and they were great. Dunno why I let them go.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Toonces said:


> Dude, just send it to hwa to do. He's the master at hacking new NTH watches from original ones!
> 
> I only know hwa from his posts on here, but he strikes me at the sort that would do it for a bottle of scotch. And not expensive scotch, like JW Red or something.


It'd be bourbon or rye, and you're right. I would do it happily










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Good rye. First time trying it. I've been building and appreciation for American spirits every since I visited a local Texas bourbon distillery. So far I believe my favorite is Buffalo Trace bourbon but this is good as well.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

SteamJ said:


> Good rye. First time trying it. I've been building and appreciation for American spirits every since I visited a local Texas bourbon distillery. So far I believe my favorite is Buffalo Trace bourbon but this is good as well.
> 
> View attachment 14561769


Buffalo Trace is just excellent.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

SteamJ said:


> Good rye. First time trying it. I've been building and appreciation for American spirits every since I visited a local Texas bourbon distillery. So far I believe my favorite is Buffalo Trace bourbon but this is good as well.
> 
> View attachment 14561769


I am usually not a rye guy, but I recently had some angels envy rye and it was spectacular! Bang for the buck was similar to what I find from Blanton's bourbon.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Tikuna Matata!!









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Nordlys (Jan 9, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> I'm guessing the answer will be no, which leaves you with two options: find the closest to your ideal as you can, or get as close as you can by modding a watch.
> 
> For instance, I'd be looking for one of the new Amphions and another NTH with the bezel you prefer, buy both, swap the bezels, sell the loser.
> 
> ...


Yeah, this was my assumption as well. I'm sure another Amphion with Black Dial will be re-released eventually, but I assume there will be a minute track on the bezel, as the old Rolex MilSubs with the sword hands (inspiration for the Amphion) all had full minute tracks.

I'm not a "modding" guy, so I would choose the first option, which is to choose the model that is closest to what I want. For me, that would be the Modern Näcken, as the clean bezel of the Näcken and the white/blue modern lume is more important to me than sword hands. While I slightly prefer sword hands to the snowflake hands, I don't _dislike_ the snowflake hands. They're visually interesting and are extremely easy to read, and they work well with square hour indices.* I could certainly live with them and be happy with them. I just wanted to check first to see if something matching my ideal was in the pipeline so I'm not kicking myself a few months down the road. 

*As an aside, I cannot wrap my head around the decision by Tudor to put the round indices on the Black Bays. Would've looked 1000X better if they stuck with the square indices like on the vintage Tudor MilSubs and modern Pelagos. Round indices with loppipop hands OR square indices with snowflake hands. This is the way it should be to maintain balance in the universe haha.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

TreeScientist said:


> *As an aside, I cannot wrap my head around the decision by Tudor to put the round indices on the Black Bays. Would've looked 1000X better if they stuck with the square indices like on the vintage Tudor MilSubs and modern Pelagos. Round indices with loppipop hands OR square indices with snowflake hands. This is the way it should be to maintain balance in the universe haha.


----------



## sideways2 (Dec 1, 2016)

Yer rye ain't "rye"... come to Canada and I'll show you a rye!! Or two LOL!! Possibly a third *hick*


----------



## Elbakalao (May 8, 2014)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> Ah, bezel roulette. The original version of 'The Deerhunter' had De Niro and Walken trying to prise the bezel inserts off of old Seikos and apply new ones without screwing it up. It was too intense, they had to take the scene out and replace the watches with pistols.


Gold.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Dub Rubb said:


> Tikuna Matata!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Notice how those awesome BSH straps make everything look better!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

TreeScientist said:


> For me, that would be the Modern Näcken, as the clean bezel of the Näcken and the white/blue modern lume is more important to me than sword hands. While I slightly prefer sword hands to the snowflake hands, I don't _dislike_ the snowflake hands. They're visually interesting and are extremely easy to read, and they work well with square hour indices.* I could certainly live with them and be happy with them. .


The modern Nacken is an excellent choice. It is easily my favorite automatic, and in my top handful of watches. I got the blue, which is just stunning. It wears just so great, and with the drilled lugs strap changes are a breeze if you're into that. I just keep in on the bracelet most days.

Good luck!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> Tikuna Matata!!


What a wonderful phrase...


----------



## Nordlys (Jan 9, 2019)

Toonces said:


> The modern Nacken is an excellent choice. It is easily my favorite automatic, and in my top handful of watches. I got the blue, which is just stunning. * It wears just so great,* and with the drilled lugs strap changes are a breeze if you're into that. I just keep in on the bracelet most days.
> 
> Good luck!


The wearability potential is what attracted me to these NTH subs in the first place. I'm not a fan of thick or heavy watches, which rules out most of the bricks that companies are releasing in their dive watch lines. A few companies have started releasing vintage throwbacks that are more reasonably proportioned (Oris Divers 65, BB58, etc.) but I'm not a fan of the faux aged lume or gilt on most of these "nouveau-vintage" releases.

It's really difficult to find modern dive watches with modern styling that are under 12mm thick and less than 150g total weight on bracelet. I was really excited when I discovered these NTH subs last week (yes, I've apparently been living under a rock), as I thought "FINALLY a reasonably proportioned, modern styled dive watch!"


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

What spot in your collection does your nth take? I suppose a leading question would be do you categorize your watches and if so where does your nth sit? 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

TreeScientist said:


> The wearability potential is what attracted me to these NTH subs in the first place.


I like larger watches usually, but the appeal of these subs is they're proper tool divers that wear almost like dress watches. I know Chris put blood, sweat and tears into getting the case design and dimensions just _so_. The effort was worth it IMO.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

JLS36 said:


> What spot in your collection does your nth take? I suppose a leading question would be do you categorize your watches and if so where does your nth sit?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


The Barracuda and Nacken are some of my most inexpensive watches, but they get worn at least as much as the expensive ones.

Doc Savage


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

#hairywrists









Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

@dmjonez - saw this in my FB feed, and thought of you...


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> What spot in your collection does your nth take? I suppose a leading question would be do you categorize your watches and if so where does your nth sit?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Second row from the top, third watch in, right between the Ollech Wajs M6 sub and the Marathon TSAR. Solidly in the "not going to sell" category.

The Santa Cruz is also my only white dialed watch, and other than the GS snowflake, I haven't seen another that I think could replace it, so it fills that gap.

I have a tendency to not be able to hold onto less expensive microbrand watches, I like them for a while and then they get stale, so most of what occupies a spot below it In value is either a Seiko, or a quartz. It's right smack in the middle.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

TreeScientist said:


> Really loving some of the new designs. Excellent work Doc! I'm particularly fond of the dial, markers, and hands on the new Amphion.
> 
> Any chance of seeing a model with:
> 
> ...


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Orthos ii mod









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

JLS36 said:


> What spot in your collection does your nth take? I suppose a leading question would be do you categorize your watches and if so where does your nth sit?


I don't really categorize my watches, but pretty much all of them are GADA, sporty-style watches. And the NTH Amphion Commando fits right in. Works well in 98% of the situations I find myself. The other 2% is split 1.5% too upscale; 0.5% not dressy enough.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> @dmjonez - saw this in my FB feed, and thought of you...
> 
> View attachment 14563831


Nailed it


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> @dmjonez - saw this in my FB feed, and thought of you...
> 
> View attachment 14563831


Before or after his first touch and go?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Money, mouth...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

RmacMD said:


> Before or after his first touch and go?


Actual photo of my youngest. His sister also flies. Both are 4th generation pilots...









And I have already led him down the other rabbit hole, he owns a Glycine, an NTH, and a G-Shock so far...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Actual photo of my youngest. His sister also flies. Both are 4th generation pilots...
> 
> View attachment 14567079
> 
> ...


According to the picture, he flies at the Equator.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Actual photo of my youngest. His sister also flies. Both are 4th generation pilots...
> 
> View attachment 14567079
> 
> ...


Y'all didn't realize "Airplane" was a documentary...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rhorya said:


> According to the picture, he flies at the Equator.


And I'm not completely sure, but I think you're saying that, because the picture was flipped. I have completely given up on trying to have pictures right side up. I will post something on my iPad, check it, confirm it, and then see it later on my phone and it's upside down. I've completely given up. For what it's worth, I posted it from my phone, and I'm looking at it on my iPad right now and it's right side up to me.

If you're saying that because the picture is data tagged as being from the equator, it might be, because I am in Nigeria at the moment.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> And I'm not completely sure, but I think you're saying that, because the picture was flipped. I have completely given up on trying to have pictures right side up. I will post something on my iPad, check it, confirm it, and then see it later on my phone and it's upside down. I've completely given up. For what it's worth, I posted it from my phone, and I'm looking at it on my iPad right now and it's right side up to me.
> 
> If you're saying that because the picture is data tagged as being from the equator, it might be, because I am in Nigeria at the moment.


What do you fly?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> What do you fly?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Right now, and probably until I retire in three years, the A330. A lot of other things previously. And this needs a photo, upside down or otherwise.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> And I'm not completely sure, but I think you're saying that, because the picture was flipped. I have completely given up on trying to have pictures right side up. I will post something on my iPad, check it, confirm it, and then see it later on my phone and it's upside down. I've completely given up. For what it's worth, I posted it from my phone, and I'm looking at it on my iPad right now and it's right side up to me.
> 
> If you're saying that because the picture is data tagged as being from the equator, it might be, because I am in Nigeria at the moment.


It was sideways here in Tapatalk. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Right now, and probably until I retire in three years, the A330. A lot of other things previously. And this needs a photo, upside down or otherwise.
> 
> View attachment 14567767


Nice I've married into a flying family. 777,747 and anything beechcraft.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Right now, and probably until I retire in three years, the A330. A lot of other things previously. And this needs a photo, upside down or otherwise.
> 
> View attachment 14567767


Where are you in Idaho? Im in Boise....


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Sandpoint. Waaaay up in the panhandle

Needs another photo


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

And a watch photo to get back on track. I can't remember where I was...


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Venice?


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Paris.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Tanjecterly said:


> Paris.


Paris it is. I went back and checked. Good call


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

I absolutely love the dial on the DevilRay


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh.

I got NOTHING done today, at all.

Someone tried to put a fraudulent order through my website two days ago, and today, they tried to pull $5k out of my bank account. 

Tomorrow I have to go to the bank to open up new accounts, for the second time since last year, and go through the hassle of updating all my other accounts with the new info.

I freaking hate cyber-criminals. Why can't they grow a set of balls and stick up a liquor store, like a proper villain?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Ugh.
> 
> I got NOTHING done today, at all.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that. Do you think they are connected?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JLS36 said:


> Sorry to hear that. Do you think they are connected?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


They're definitely connected. Same name used by both peeps, "Charles Harrison", which is apparently a commonly used name for online fraudsters.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## OhDark30 (Oct 2, 2012)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*









What this pic needs..









is more








pic: Time Bum

N518 Nazario Sauro, Genoa, Italy
I visited the sub, now for the Sub


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



OhDark30 said:


> What this pic needs..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see you still have that marvellous Strela, Kath. Looks wonderful.

Sold mine a couple of years ago, and still wonder if my collection consolidation went a step too far.

Ric x


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

wtma said:


>


Love the strap on this! Where did you get it?


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

Hornet99 said:


> Love the strap on this! Where did you get it?


It's a custom strap made by Orijin Works (IG: orijinworks)
By the way Doc, any chance for a yellow dial Sub?


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> They're definitely connected. Same name used by both peeps, "Charles Harrison", which is apparently a commonly used name for online fraudsters.


First, sorry to hear that. I agree, there's nothing more frustrating than that helpless feeling of being the victim of online crime. You can't do anything about it yourself, and you know that there's nothing the cops can/will do either.

Second... as a software engineer with a cybersecurity background, I'd like to tactfully suggest that if someone can gain access to your bank account information via your website, you might have some major design flaws in your website design/architecture. I'm not trying to bash whoever your web developer is, and I haven't personally "poked" at your website enough to look for any vulnerabilities, but I can take a pretty good guess just from your description about how you were attacked and what the exploit was.

You may want to consider finding a third party to do some basic penetration testing. There are firms out there that use automated tools to essentially run the full spectrum of known exploits against client websites and identify any vulnerabilities. Someone could put in a few hours of work and let you know if there's something about your site that could be re-designed or "hardened" to prevent these types of things.

Anyway, that's my two cents, but I'm just here for the watches, so take it or leave it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wtma said:


> It's a custom strap made by Orijin Works (IG: orijinworks)
> By the way Doc, any chance for a yellow dial Sub?


Slim to none.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Coriolanus said:


> First, sorry to hear that. I agree, there's nothing more frustrating than that helpless feeling of being the victim of online crime. You can't do anything about it yourself, and you know that there's nothing the cops can/will do either.


Cheers/Thanks.

Speaking for the cops, this from another friend of mine, who is one...











Coriolanus said:


> Second... as a software engineer with a cybersecurity background, I'd like to tactfully suggest that if someone can gain access to your bank account information via your website, you might have some major design flaws in your website design/architecture. I'm not trying to bash whoever your web developer is, and I haven't personally "poked" at your website enough to look for any vulnerabilities, but I can take a pretty good guess just from your description about how you were attacked and what the exploit was.
> 
> You may want to consider finding a third party to do some basic penetration testing. There are firms out there that use automated tools to essentially run the full spectrum of known exploits against client websites and identify any vulnerabilities. Someone could put in a few hours of work and let you know if there's something about your site that could be re-designed or "hardened" to prevent these types of things.
> 
> Anyway, that's my two cents, but I'm just here for the watches, so take it or leave it.


So...a couple things...

It's not like I built my own website (hopefully, obviously).

When you go looking for a turnkey solution for an ecommerce site, the list of providers isn't that long. So, right off the bat, if you're a cyber criminal looking to score, there's your target list, right there.

The list of the GOOD ecommerce site platforms is even shorter. It's basically two, from what I've seen, and I've been on both of them, between my old site, and my new site. The rest of the platforms all rate somewhere between suck and $hltty.

I know for certain the platform I'm on now has had data security breaches. I'm pretty sure the platform I was on also had them.

Until yesterday, I never thought (or realized, as the case now appears to be) that those data breaches had any affect on me or my business.

Prior to posting last night, I was on the phone with a friend who makes his living doing cyber security, to get his opinion about this. Mostly, I wanted to figure out if someone was targeting me specifically, or if it seemed like I was just caught up in a bigger scheme targeting my ecommerce site provider. Whichever it was, my secondary aim was to figure out where the blame would likely be.

Based on what we know and using basic logic, this looks like it wasn't personal, and they were targeting the platform, not me. The platform's coders are to blame here, it's pretty certain.

There's nothing I can do to force better cyber security on them, so there's no sense in me hiring anyone to do anything cyber-security related here. And I'm not changing ecommerce platforms again, because no matter where I take my business, I'd be stepping down in features and functionality, and possibly increasing my odds of being hit again, for all I know.

When my bank account got hit last year, in a very similar way, I didn't connect the attack to my website at the time, and so I didn't take any added precautions when I set up my new accounts. This time, the connection is pretty clear, and it seems obvious that system vulnerabilities are going to pose an ongoing risk, no matter what platform I use. So this time, I'm taking precautions on the banking side, to make it impossible that this will happen again.

It's all good. Both times, I caught the transaction in time to not lose any money. Having to update all my accounts for the second time in less than 2 years is a PITA, but it's a few hours out of my week, so I can't bltch too loudly.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...
> 
> It's all good. Both times, I caught the transaction in time to not lose any money. Having to update all my accounts for the second time in less than 2 years is a PITA, but it's a few hours out of my week, so I can't bltch too loudly.


Great news!

True, redoing accounts is a pain, but so glad you didn't lose $.

Doc Savage


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Someone say Nazario Sauro?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Doc, question for you regarding the SEL design on the NTH subs.....

What lead you to choose the "male" SELs on the subs, which are like this:










.....as opposed to the "female" SELs which are like this:










I know that there will be fans of both and that it's a subjective taste thing, but I'm curious to the decision process here, was it aesthetics or costs or something else?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Hornet99 said:


> I know that there will be fans of both and that it's a subjective taste thing, but I'm curious to the decision process here, was it aesthetics or costs or something else?


FWIW, I prefer the female endlink design for how watches fit my wrist, and I was a bit iffy on the NTH bracelet... until I received it. For my 7" wrist and the size/design of the rest of the watch, it works very well for me. Was actually a bit surprised.

Not what you were asking, but this was my experience.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Hornet99 said:


> I know that there will be fans of both and that it's a subjective taste thing, but I'm curious to the decision process here, was it aesthetics or costs or something else?


FWIW, I think the male SEL's work much better with the sub case. Imho it adds a fake third lug in the middle making the design more fluid and streamlined whereas female endlinks look like an afterthought.

In fact, the endlink design is the only aspect I prefer on the modern Rolex compared to Tudor.

Not what you were asking, but this was my experience.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

1. I like the male style better. I hate the female style, which often looks stupid, when the center-section of the next link slides under a hollow section of the end-link. I like how the center-section of the male style is raised from the two outer sections. I hate how the link is flat on the female style.

2. It's better/easier when it comes to drilling the lug holes and hole in the the end-link, and assembly. When it's a male-style, there's one hole that goes through the end-link, which has to align with the lug-holes. When it's female, there are two holes, one through the end-link, one through the center-section of the next link, and they both have to align with the lug-holes. It's a challenge to get all those holes perfectly aligned, and you often end up with a thinner spring bar, and a rattly bracelet.

3. With the male-style, when you remove the bracelet from the case, the end-links are still attached to the bracelet, so there's zero chance of losing one or both of them. With the female style, the links come apart from the bracelet. It makes attaching the bracelet to the case more difficult in assembly.

4. People think the male style extends the lug to lug length. People are wrong. The lugs and the end-links both curve down, they don't point straight out. All that's happening is the arc of the links is being continued down and around your wrist. The way the watch sits on the wrist is unchanged. People need to get over it and stop fussing over stupid $hlt. 

Trust me. It's my job to fuss over all the stupid $hlt, so you don't have to.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Good morning all!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The list of the GOOD ecommerce site platforms is even shorter. It's basically two


Well that explains why so many watch company sites have the same basic design &#8230;


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> 1. I like the male style better. I hate the female style, which often looks stupid, when the center-section of the next link slides under a hollow section of the end-link. I like how the center-section of the male style is raised from the two outer sections. I hate how the link is flat on the female style.
> 
> 2. It's better/easier when it comes to drilling the lug holes and hole in the the end-link, and assembly. When it's a male-style, there's one hole that goes through the end-link, which has to align with the lug-holes. When it's female, there are two holes, one through the end-link, one through the center-section of the next link, and they both have to align with the lug-holes. It's a challenge to get all those holes perfectly aligned, and you often end up with a thinner spring bar, and a rattly bracelet.
> 
> ...


No fussing here Doc! Just a question that popped into my head and wanted to understand your choice, seeing as you're an accessible watch brand owner!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> No fussing here Doc! Just a question that popped into my head and wanted to understand your choice, seeing as you're an accessible watch brand owner!!


"Fussing" not directed your way, or at anyone else's here, necessarily.

I've seen this issue brought up, and whinged over, in various places. The degree to which some people will get their shorts in a twist over something so trivial truly hurts my head whilst reading their protracted rants about it. Truly, this is first world problem stuff, of the most inane variety.

It's just yet another reason why I'll someday run screaming from this forum and all watch talk online.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> "Fussing" not directed your way, or at anyone else's here, necessarily.
> 
> I've seen this issue brought up, and whinged over, in various places. The degree to which some people will get their shorts in a twist over something so trivial truly hurts my head whilst reading their protracted rants about it. Truly, this is first world problem stuff, of the most inane variety.
> 
> ...


Live by the watch, die by the watch?


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

Today I wore the Tikuna while taking an at-home practice GRE test. My quantitative score increased over the previous practice test. Conclusion: wearing an NTH makes you smarter.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I like your style, Sussa.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Rhorya said:


>


Those bracelets often look cool in watch photos. Is there a name for them? Probably a dumb question with an answer like, "It's called a 'bracelet', dummy". Maybe bead bracelet.

Likely a moot point. I have serious reservations about my ability to pull off something like that.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Rosary bracelets?

Though idk if putting skullheads on them is blasphemous or not (don't really care myself, but others might).

Btw, if one is so inclined, there's a Rosary Smart-bracelet recently released in collaboration with (and approved by) the Vatican.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

3WR said:


> Those bracelets often look cool in watch photos. Is there a name for them? Probably a dumb question with an answer like, "It's called a 'bracelet', dummy". Maybe bead bracelet.
> 
> Likely a moot point. I have serious reservations about my ability to pull off something like that.


You can always try alternatives like bracelets that are made from rope or string, look slightly less like "jewellery" and can be thinner/more discreet......


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

NTH Näcken Modern Black today.....










Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Some folks are into them. I don't really get it (if it's not a religious thing) but I guess it's a way to coordinate with your dial color if you're into that sort of thing. I will caution though that they have a bit of a "divorced dad" stigma to them.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

3WR said:


> Those bracelets often look cool in watch photos. Is there a name for them? Probably a dumb question with an answer like, "It's called a 'bracelet', dummy". Maybe bead bracelet.
> 
> Likely a moot point. I have serious reservations about my ability to pull off something like that.


A gift from a friend who makes his own man jewelry. Bead bracelet is what i call it.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Some folks are into them. I don't really get it (if it's not a religious thing) but I guess it's a way to coordinate with your dial color if you're into that sort of thing. I will caution though that they have a bit of a "divorced dad" stigma to them.
> 
> View attachment 14580041


Love that, the whiff of divorced dad.......


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hornet99 said:


> Love that, the whiff of divorced dad.......


Seems like any kind of "james bond diving watch" gives off that whiff all by itself as-is...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

People often ask my wife if she’s available, even when I’m standing right there, because watch and bead bracelets. 

This convo has a whiff of inanity


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Seems like any kind of "james bond diving watch" gives off that whiff all by itself as-is...


Nah, it's just the beads.......

.......what would an Apple watch and bead bracelets say?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> 1. I like the male style better. I hate the female style
> 
> Trust me. It's my job to fuss over all the stupid $hlt, so you don't have to.


I enjoyed reading this while imaging you an end link sexist and mansplainer, contributing to the continued underrepresentation of female end links in the market.

As for me, #end link feminism

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I bought several NTH watches, two bead bracelets, and two string bracelets not too long after getting divorced. 

I don’t have kids but I think there may be something to this divorcee theory...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

hwa said:


> People often ask my wife if she's available, even when I'm standing right there, because watch and bead bracelets.
> 
> This convo has a whiff of inanity
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Could be a different explanation; is she in a higher league than you?! :think: :-d


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Hornet99 said:


> Nah, it's just the beads.......
> 
> .......what would an Apple watch and bead bracelets say?


Millennial or baby boomer trying too hard.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Some folks are into them. I don't really get it (if it's not a religious thing) but I guess it's a way to coordinate with your dial color if you're into that sort of thing. I will caution though that they have a bit of a "divorced dad" stigma to them.
> 
> View attachment 14580041


Ha! That's me.. and been married for 16 years this month 

But I've narrowed down my bracelet wearing to one. But every now and then I funk it up. But that's my personality really.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Sonar (Sep 9, 2019)

Found out about NTH watches just today. Received the Steinhart Vintage One this week.. 

I know its the wrong place to ask but how do both brands compare? If i had known about NTH beforehand I may have had an even harder time to decide

The brown baracuda looks awesome.. love the thickness and size.. exactly the things I wasnt sure about with the 42mm steinharts..



Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G955F met Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Sonar said:


> Found out about NTH watches just today. Received the Steinhart Vintage One this week..
> 
> I know its the wrong place to ask but how do both brands compare? If i had known about NTH beforehand I may have had an even harder time to decide
> 
> ...


For this comparison I'm team NTH Subs all day for several reasons. (And I do have a Steinhart in the box so I'm not too biased.)

But the biggest reason is my preference for the Subs case shape and size. The Steinhart lugs aren't exactly known for their wrist-hugging ergonomics...

That said, enjoy the new watch! I think Steinhart offerings are solid, and I've always found their bracelets quite nice in the metal (an aspect in which I'd even give them the edge).

And if a (likely preowned) Sub eventually moves you enough to take the plunge, join in on the fun here!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> NTH Näcken Modern Black today.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pelagos replacement? I didn't see this posted on the "other" thread... (I picked up the blue one btw so I'm pro team nacken)

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sonar said:


> Found out about NTH watches just today. Received the Steinhart Vintage One this week..
> 
> I know its the wrong place to ask but how do both brands compare? If i had known about NTH beforehand I may have had an even harder time to decide
> 
> ...


Günter Steinhart has more umlauts than Chris Vail...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Günter Steinhart has more umlauts than Chris Vail...


Indeed. You're stuck coping with your umlaut inadequacy with some of your Subs names.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Sonar said:


> Found out about NTH watches just today. Received the Steinhart Vintage One this week..
> 
> I know its the wrong place to ask but how do both brands compare? If i had known about NTH beforehand I may have had an even harder time to decide
> 
> ...


Steinhart make a quality product as does NTH, but I'd go for NTH all day long because of the better proportions, shape of the case. I've never kept a Steinhart because of the lugs and the size of the 42mm versions. Same for their 39mm versions, just don't like the lugs......


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Günter Steinhart has more umlauts than Chris Vail...


But you've got the Näcken to compensate.........


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Indeed. You're stuck coping with your umlaut inadequacy with some of your Subs names.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sadly, 'tis true.


----------



## Sonar (Sep 9, 2019)

I didnt take their umlaut game in the equation yet. Solid point..

So DocVail is the owner of this brand and he spams here all day? That is cool!

Following this thread feom now on 

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G955F met Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sonar said:


> I didnt take their umlaut game in the equation yet. Solid point..
> 
> So DocVail is the owner of this brand and he spams here all day? That is cool!
> 
> ...


Pretty much how it goes down in here. Welcome!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Hmmm. Man beads as a sign of marital status? Im still married to my wife after 33 years. Which explains the skulls. Im dead.


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Rhorya said:


> Hmmm. Man beads as a sign of marital status? Im still married to my wife after 33 years. Which explains the skulls. Im dead.


Lmao

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Avo said:


> Well that explains why so many watch company sites have the same basic design &#8230;


You say that, and yet, I've seen surprising number of truly $hltty websites.

I'm speaking mostly for those in the USA. When I researched which ecommerce platform to use, I kept seeing the same names coming up in various comparisons, and the people doing the comparing made the same basic points about them all. I quickly settled on one of the big two, then last year I switched to the other.

But, especially with some brands based in Europe, I notice some commonalities which make me wonder if there isn't some popular alternative(s) there, which we don't see here in the US.

I don't know if what I'm about to say makes sense, or if it makes sense for the companies doing it, but I see a good number of sites where the "main" site seems to not even be an ecommerce site. Like, it's all info about the brand and watches, but no way to actually buy them. You have to find a link to their e-store in the navigation, and very often the e-store has a very different look and feel from the main site.

Very often, it's maddening, at least to me. If a potential customer struggles to find specs and prices, I'd think that's a problem, knowing that most site visitors stay less than 3 minutes.

Then again, my seat-of-the-pants impression is that ecommerce sites as a group are all an imperfect solution (at best) to what brands need or want their sites to do, and the gap between user experience and site functionality seems to be growing wider as mobile device usage and social media use proliferate.

Like, think about this...

Especially among enthusiasts, there's a desire to "connect" with the brand and product story in some way. Telling a story involves text and images. Where do you tell that long-form story when more and more people are viewing your site on a small-screen, and interacting with your brand in short-form media like Instagram, Twitter and Facebook?

I just saw a post from another brand, with what would be a short explanation of something if you were reading it on a bigger screen, but on social media, it was probably too long, and I imagine most people didn't read it all.

Do you rely on bloggers? Most bloggers tend to give only passing attention to brand story, in favor of focusing on details about the product. Think about how much you read about Steve Laughlin's background in the last review of a Raven watch.

You can use video, on YouTube, but then you need to get those viewers to go to your site to buy something, and YouTube is trying to keep them on YouTube, not leaving to visit your store.

You can interact on a forum, and in Facebook groups, but many/most want to limit commercial activity from non-sponsors. And you've got the same challenge there - you can interact with consumers on a forum, but you can't sell them anything there. You have to get them to your site to actually buy something.

You can use a blog, but paring that story down to a size which is ideal for mobile is a challenge. And, is that blog somewhere other than your ecommerce site, or embedded within it? How do you get people to go from your blog site to your ecommerce site? How do people coming to your site from Instagram or Facebook find the blog, if they're landing on a product page, which is frequently the case?

Do you put a mini-version of your blog on the product pages? How do you effectively maximize the use of that small space, which site visitors expect to include product images, pricing, and specs? I've seen that people will frequently overlook product-page specs, even when they're prominently placed. Adding a mini-blog may make that info harder to find.

Beyond that stuff about story, there are challenges surrounding communication about product availability. A lot of brands will promote a new model for some time before it's available for sale. Ecommerce sites aren't fantastic at presenting pre-launch products in such a way that site visitors understand those products aren't sold out, but rather will be available soon.

Likewise, what do you do with products that are sold out, at least on the site, but still available from retail partners, or will be produced again in the future? How do you quickly and clearly communicate that info to someone on a mobile device, who lands on the product page, and sees "sold out"?

Most ecommerce site conversion rates are very, very, very low. When we were doing all direct-to-customer sales, and sort of killing it, our long-term average was ~0.5%, meaning 1 in every 200 visits to the site resulted in a sale. For a lot of brands, it's much worse than that.

So, back to my site and that problem with someone hacking in to get my bank info - it's not like I can switch platforms on a whim. We spent most of last year trying to get the current site built and launched. It does a lot of things really well, and most of those things, it does better than most other platforms. I can't easily rationalize giving up a better user-experience, even if it's for more security.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

On a Yobokies waffle:


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I think Nomos has the best example of a website that at once tells the brand "story" and that acts as a clean, easy-to-use storefront for their watches. And it looks a damn sight better than any other brand's website/webshop I've encountered.

The front page of the store - and of the brand itself - is also a good study in how to entice various kinds of potential customers into exploring the watches. Text is ALWAYS accompanied by - and often preceded by - good photography. There's multiple ways to find a watch, going from categorizations ("new releases, for him, for her, xyz"), to "model families" for those who know what they want, to a list of all options (organized by families), to specific styles.. Multiple paths. 

As for buying on mobile devices, imo a big mistake many sites make is to try and cram everything and the kitchen sink into a single "view". Scrolling the page up/down is not difficult on mobiles, it's better to see a few things that look good and are easy to read, than to see twenty things that look like tiny coloured blobs.


This maybe is a bit mean, but.. compare nomos' store to e.g. serious watches. Which one does a better job and convincing, enticing a visitor to decide on the purchase? Which one looks nicer to browse and be in?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sonar said:


> Found out about NTH watches just today. Received the Steinhart Vintage One this week..
> 
> I know its the wrong place to ask but how do both brands compare? If i had known about NTH beforehand I may have had an even harder time to decide
> 
> The brown baracuda looks awesome.. love the thickness and size.. exactly the things I wasnt sure about with the 42mm steinharts..





Sonar said:


> I didnt take their umlaut game in the equation yet. Solid point..
> 
> So DocVail is the owner of this brand and he spams here all day? That is cool!
> 
> Following this thread feom now on


Yes, doc owns NTH. Yes, he posts here, but not all day (let's hope not).

Steinhart makes a nice watch. I'm not going to comment on quality, value, or any of those subjective traits, when my comments might end up causing controversy.

As others have noted, the case designs are different enough to keep them from being only comparable based on specs or components.

If you like female-style end-links on your bracelets, there you go.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

For what it’s worth I also like the Subs relative to arguable competitors for the range of creative dial and handset combos all in the same tried and true case, the (often colored) brushed and lumed steel bezel inserts, the lumed crown, the clever model name system, and in all honesty just to support Doc as an enthusiast who shares a lot of knowledge about design, manufacturing, the biz, and some history. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

Ok I’m sure I’m way late to the party on this one but I for some reason assumed the nacken was named after a fleet of submarines. My girlfriend just pointed out that a nacken is some Scandinavian man beast that lured people to their death by drowning with his stellar violin playing. 

Both of these are equally as cool to me but I’m curious where you got the name from doc!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Mikefable said:


> Ok I'm sure I'm way late to the party on this one but I for some reason assumed the nacken was named after a fleet of submarines. My girlfriend just pointed out that a nacken is some Scandinavian man beast that lured people to their death by drowning with his stellar violin playing.
> 
> Both of these are equally as cool to me but I'm curious where you got the name from doc!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Named after a sub. The sub was named after that myth.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I'm team NTH because I love that the owner is right here talking story with us peons.

You know, I sometimes wonder if I should have gone with the black Nacken rather than the modern blue. But, I always come around to being stoked I went with the blue after all.

Two Nackens is too much. I think that a black Barracuda is going to have to be acquired at some point.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

On a somewhat related note, I was browsing the NTH section of Watch Recon today. NTH's really seem to be holding on to their re-sale value.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> Nah, it's just the beads.......
> 
> .......what would an Apple watch and bead bracelets say?


Somebody starting their first day of a "i'm going to hit the gym six days a week" resolution.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sonar said:


> Found out about NTH watches just today. Received the Steinhart Vintage One this week..
> 
> I know its the wrong place to ask but how do both brands compare? If i had known about NTH beforehand I may have had an even harder time to decide
> 
> ...


I definitely prefer NTH. Steinhart is just a little too on the nose in terms of their Rolex homages for my taste. They do have some original designs, but I've never found them to be especially compelling. The 42mm OOV is really in a different size class than the subs. The upcoming 42mm models that Doc has been teasing for awhile would be a more direct comparison. Other than that, Swiss vs. Japanese. I prefer the Miyota, because I don't have to think about it. You just wear the watch until the movement reaches the end of its useful life, and then swap it out for a new one, which could be in 10, 15, possibly 20 years. The ETA/Sellita that Steinhart is using is going to need regular servicing around every 7 years or so.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Im not anal about these beads. Oh and a watch.


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

I have both the NTH Näcken Modern Blue and the Steinhart Ocean One Vintage Red (the Sea Dweller Double Red homage).

I love both watches and both get about equal wrist time, with the Steinhart maybe taking a slight lead. Out of my approx. 20 watches in my collection, those two are the ones I wear the most. 

There is something about the colour combo of the Steinhart dial that I absolutely love. It is sturdy, well built and well-equipped with the ETA 2824-2 elaboré. However, with 42mm it's still wearable, but a 39mm or 40mm would be perfect for me. 

However, the case and finish of the NTH is so much nicer, as it's slimmer, more svelte and it looks much more refined with that beautiful polished chamfered edges. Also, the case size of the NTH is the absolute sweet spot for me.

I feel the NTH clasp is a bit thick, also, I prefer a bit more tapering on my bracelets. The Steinhart bracelet is 22/18mm, while the NTH tapers only slightly from 20 to 18. It appears a bit bulky for my taste. 

The perfect watch for me would probably be the Steinhart O1VR dial in an NTH case (go on and hit me with your 'blasphemy!' calls).

Still, both brands produce excellent watches for the money. And there's something to nitpick in just about every watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

karmadrome said:


> ...there's something to nitpick in just about every watch.


Said every, WIS, ever.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I had a chance to check out some Steinharts this past weekend at the Boston GTG, They actually look fabulous. And at one point I was scheming on how to afford the Ocean 39 GMT Premium 500.

But I'd read about the case shape, with relatively flat (vs. curved) lugs. I got my partner a Seiko SNXS77 because she wanted "a blue watch" and I love that dial and hand combo. Same issue -- a fairly thick case, more-straight-than-curved lugs, and a prominent case back. She loves it; I can't stand the way it fits.

So I actually tried on a Steinhart, and... no-go. Glad I didn't splurge on one. 

NTH content: was representin', wearing the Amphion Commando on the EO MN strap to the GTG.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Nobody specifically asked me, but it's been brought up enough times...

Bracelet taper.

Like a lot of decisions I make, the result is often tied back to various discussions I've seen on a topic. In this case, I've read comments from guys who like no taper at all, guys who like some taper (22mm-20mm, 20mm-18mm, etc), and guys who really like a more extreme taper (20mm-16mm).

All of the bracelets I'd had on other watches had a 2mm taper. I'd never had a 4mm taper, and honestly, it kind of looked weird to see a 16mm clasp on Rolexes, notwithstanding guys telling me how comfortable it is. That 4mm taper looks too severe to my eye. 

Plus, when the clasp is made thinner, I'd think people would notice its thickness more. Even though our current clasp is only marginally thicker (literally, 0.1mm thicker) than the old one, people say it's a tad too thick, something no one ever said about the original.

I've also wondered about problems stemming from the difference in the link widths. If a link needs to be replaced, and the taper spreads out over more of them, does that mean that there are fewer links which are interchangeable, because there are fewer of the same width, and therefore getting (and for me, supplying) replacement links becomes more tedious? Right now, all the taper in our bracelets happens in the first 2-3 links from the case, so except for the half-links, all the removeable links are interchangeable.

I figured if most companies were doing 2mm tapers, there must be a reason, and it seemed to me that a 2mm taper would strike the right balance between no taper at all and a 4mm taper. Sure enough, I've seen comments from guys who couldn't even tell the bracelet is tapered at all. 

On the one hand, hearing "I wish the bracelet tapered" gets old. But on the other hand, maybe there are guys who don't like any taper who are fooled into buying one, or who change their minds after seeing how subtle the taper really is.

All that said, and even if it isn't entirely logical, I think a 22mm-18mm taper makes more sense than a 20mm-16mm, and so we're planning to do that for the XL Subs (which are closer to 44mm than 42mm, by the way). The benefit is we can use the same 18mm clasp we use on the 40mm Subs, so it'll make things easier when it comes to replacements.

Sidebar - I just went to Strapcode's website to see how many different 16mm clasps they sold, and it looks like the only ones are those Rolex oyster-style clasps. It makes me wonder how many other current brands do more than a 2mm taper.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Nobody specifically asked me, but it's been brought up enough times...
> 
> Bracelet taper.
> 
> ...


The only after market brand I've seen with the 20-16 taper is Hadley Roma. I've posted mine a few times. Hollow endlinks though.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Yes, doc owns NTH. Yes, he posts here, but not all day (let's hope not).
> 
> Steinhart makes a nice watch. I'm not going to comment on quality, value, or any of those subjective traits, when my comments might end up causing controversy.
> 
> ...


Doc doesn't post all day, but when he's been gone for a little while, he tends to get long-winded to make up for lost time. And I mean in the WOT sense, not the PR sense.


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

You'll never please everyone, Doc, and you don't have to. You make a great product overall, and that's what counts.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> ...Bracelet taper.
> 
> ...I've also wondered about problems stemming from the difference in the link widths. If a link needs to be replaced, and the taper spreads out over more of them, does that mean that there are fewer links which are interchangeable, because there are fewer of the same width, and therefore getting (and for me, supplying) replacement links becomes more tedious? Right now, all the taper in our bracelets happens in the first 2-3 links from the case, so except for the half-links, all the removeable links are interchangeable.


Just out of curiosity, I ordered one of those "[brand shall remain nameless] to fit NTH subs" bracelets. 20-16mm taper with the "Glide-Lock" style clasp. Apparently, because of the glidelock apparatus, the clasp is longer than I am used to, certainly longer than the NTH clasp, maybe by as much as even 10mm. Combined with the taper, there are not as many removable links on either side of the clasp, and as a result, I could not get the clasp centered under my wrist where I like it -- not enough removable links on the 6 side.

When I posted this assessment on the [nameless brand] thread in the Dive Watch forum, I was informed that this was a known issue, and for at least their own watches, adjustments were being made so that the new release will have more removable links on either side of the clasp. I don't know if that will exaggerate the taper and make it look strange, or what, but I nearly immediately flipped the bracelet along.



docvail said:


> ...All that said, and even if it isn't entirely logical, I think a 22mm-18mm taper makes more sense than a 20mm-16mm, and so we're planning to do that for the XL Subs (which are closer to 44mm than 42mm, by the way). The benefit is we can use the same 18mm clasp we use on the 40mm Subs, so it'll make things easier when it comes to replacements.


Nothing to do with ease of manufacture and lower pricing with higher order quantities of an existing clasp, I'm sure...


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Some folks are into them. I don't really get it (if it's not a religious thing) but I guess it's a way to coordinate with your dial color if you're into that sort of thing. I will caution though that they have a bit of a "divorced dad" stigma to them.
> 
> View attachment 14580041


I used to wear some silver bracelets on my watch wrist, until I realized they were putting lots of micro-scratches on the watches. Now, sterling is far softer than steel, but it can pick up embedded particles of harder stuff that results in scratching.

The scratches are easy enough to polish out with a little bit of cape cod cloth, but I switched the bracelets to the other wrist anyway.

Still married after 37 years, so no divorced dad issues (maybe a little bit of old man invisibility going on there). I was a jeweler in a previous life, and have a fondness for ethnic chain styles, so the bracelets are a low profile way of connecting with that era for me.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Nobody specifically asked me, but it's been brought up enough times...
> 
> Bracelet taper.
> 
> ...


Taper is great, take the Oris 65 with its ridiculous taper to the clasp, crazy but its very comfortable. But taper isn't everything, and talking of strapcode bracelets, they are lovely but waaaaay too thick. Any benefit of the comfort of the taper is outweighed by the weight.....


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> I had a chance to check out some Steinharts this past weekend at the Boston GTG, They actually look fabulous. And at one point I was scheming on how to afford the Ocean 39 GMT Premium 500.
> 
> But I'd read about the case shape, with relatively flat (vs. curved) lugs. I got my partner a Seiko SNXS77 because she wanted "a blue watch" and I love that dial and hand combo. Same issue -- a fairly thick case, more-straight-than-curved lugs, and a prominent case back. She loves it; I can't stand the way it fits.
> 
> ...


Tried the 39mm steinharts twice and wished I'd not.....


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

MaxIcon said:


> I used to wear some silver bracelets on my watch wrist, until I realized they were putting lots of micro-scratches on the watches. Now, sterling is far softer than steel, but it can pick up embedded particles of harder stuff that results in scratching.
> 
> The scratches are easy enough to polish out with a little bit of cape cod cloth, but I switched the bracelets to the other wrist anyway.
> 
> ...


That dial makes me drool....

BTW, what is that watch?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Hornet99 said:


> Tried the 39mm steinharts twice and wished I'd not.....


Your descriptions of why you don't like Steinhart is a big reason I never got one, but it was good to confirm it in person last weekend.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Your descriptions of why you don't like Steinhart is a big reason I never got one, but it was good to confirm it in person last weekend.


Question is did you agree with my description or was it something else that put you off?


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Hornet99 said:


> Question is did you agree with my description or was it something else that put you off?


Short: yes, agreed.

Longer: I'm not a fan of vintage lume, mercedes hands, cyclops, which kills off many different versions of the Steinhart GMT, including the one I saw at the GTG. But the 39 GMT Premium has different hands, no cyclops, and white lume. Only negative aside from fit is the batman bezel, which I can live without, but which is not in any way a dealkiller for the right watch, considering all the other features. But I was wary of the fit after your description, and trying one on confirmed it. So in my world, it fits more like an SNXS77 (bad) than a SNX809 (good). And where straight up subs are concerned, I much prefer a less direct homage like an NTH than something trying too hard to be something it's not. They feel like quality watches, just not what I'm into, and there are way too many other watches out there I'd rather have. For instance, at that GTG, I much preferred a quartz Boldr GMT to the Steinharts I saw, based on fit and design.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

MikeyT said:


> That dial makes me drool....
> 
> BTW, what is that watch?


I think it's a Cobra de Calibre. Great designed watches IMO.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Doc doesn't post all day, but when he's been gone for a little while, he tends to get long-winded to make up for lost time. And I mean in the WOT sense, not the PR sense.


For a guy who earned a punch from me, but escaped without receiving one, you sure like to talk a lot of $hlt in the aftermath of nothing happening...

Some blokes would be more...I dunno...appreciative, I s'pose, and not do so much to poke the bear, so to speak.



mconlonx said:


> Nothing to do with ease of manufacture and lower pricing with higher order quantities of an existing clasp, I'm sure...


Actually, no, there really isn't anything to do with any of that.

I'm not sure how much production volume I'd need to have to get some "economies of scale" pricing from my vendors, but whatever volume that is, I haven't achieved it.

I don't think there really is such a thing with outsourced manufacturing. You're already getting the benefits of scale in your production costs. The vendors I work with are already using all of their production capacity, so adding volume doesn't do anything for them. The prices just are what they are.

The economies come into play when you get into your operational overhead costs. Like, if I'm paying $3,000 in design costs, it's better to make 3000 watches than 300 watches.

Honestly, the decision to taper the XL Sub's bracelet more than the 40mm Sub's was both a "make my life easier if I only stock one size of clasp" operational decision and a "this may help the bigger watch wear smaller" design decision. Nothing else to be read into it.

At most, we might say my operation is more efficient if I only use 18mm clasps for both models (and I'm thinking of using the same clasp on others), but that still doesn't mean I'm saving money on the production side, and if I didn't think the choice made sense for a design, I'd choose something else.



Hornet99 said:


> Taper is great, take the Oris 65 with its ridiculous taper to the clasp, crazy but its very comfortable. But taper isn't everything, and talking of strapcode bracelets, they are lovely but waaaaay too thick. Any benefit of the comfort of the taper is outweighed by the weight.....


Without wanting to re-ignite our previous debate on the topic, I can't help but smirk a bit at the irony here, given that the thinness of the Sub's bracelet was your primary complaint about it, if I remember correctly.

FWIW, I think Strapcode bracelets are as thick as they are because they're primarily meant to be mounted on thicker Seikos. As you no doubt remember me saying, thicker watches = thicker bracelets, as a general rule (bracelet link thickness usually being ~25% of case thickness).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

What your 20mm-16mm taper looks like in my mind...


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> We've got more of the BOR's coming in October(ish).


I shouldn't have, responsible adult and all that jazz, but i just impulsed bought a Ghost with corresponding BoR bracelet. Awaiting shipping notice from Watch Gauge. Looking forward to receiving, then need bracelet adjustments, then pictures.

Which watch comes out of the case? Decisions to be delayed.

Random question, does the Nth loyalty program extend to purchases made from authorized partners?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

karmadrome said:


> You'll never please everyone...


I'm not pizza.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> I'm not pizza.


You're more like pizza with pineapples lol

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> I shouldn't have, responsible adult and all that jazz, but i just impulsed bought a Ghost with corresponding BoR bracelet. Awaiting shipping notice from Watch Gauge. Looking forward to receiving, then need bracelet adjustments, then pictures.
> 
> Which watch comes out of the case? Decisions to be delayed.
> 
> Random question, does the Nth loyalty program extend to purchases made from authorized partners?


Just FYI - we haven't even gotten the BOR's in yet. They got held up in customs clearance. We expected them today, but now it's looking like we'll get them tomorrow, which means Watch Gauge won't have them until net week.

No, the loyalty program is native to the NTH website, so you can't use the points on other sites, and purchases made on other sites don't accrue any points.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> You're more like pizza with pineapples lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I routinely see Dominic Adler $hlt-posting to Facebook about pineapples on pizza. While "Hawaiian" style isn't my favorite, I don't see what all the fuss is about.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of places where I should have punched HWA, WatchWithUs posted a video today, featuring Brad talking with some brand owners at the show, including Wes from Nodus, Jimmy Collins, and two Microbrand University alums.

Worth watching, if you have a few...


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> For a guy who earned a punch from me, but escaped without receiving one, you sure like to talk a lot of $hlt in the aftermath of nothing happening...
> 
> Some blokes would be more...I dunno...appreciative, I s'pose, and not do so much to poke the bear, so to speak.
> 
> ...


Smirk all you want Doc, you'd be right to as yes I had raised a criticism of the thickness of the original NTH subs bracelet, now on the NTH Näcken Modern Black that I've got I find the bracelet thickness great, very similar in feel to the Oris and entirely proportionally sized to the watch. My tastes have changed and shall we say matured and now I appreciate it......

Which leads, interestingly, back to the strapcode bracelets, that they mainly are designed to fit large Seikos doesn't help; had one for the SRP775 Turtle and it seemed to double the weight. Eventually the weight (and the size) forced me to realise that 44mm watches weren't for me.

Having said that you did increase the thickness (ever so slightly) of the NTH bracelets if I remember correctly?

Although obvious I should state that these are all comments on my personal preferences!


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I routinely see Dominic Adler $hlt-posting to Facebook about pineapples on pizza. While "Hawaiian" style isn't my favorite, I don't see what all the fuss is about.


I worked with an Italian guy who was regularly incensed about pizza toppings, we'd always order a ham and pineapple just for him.......


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> For a guy who earned a punch from me, but escaped without receiving one, you sure like to talk a lot of $hlt in the aftermath of nothing happening...
> 
> Some blokes would be more...I dunno...appreciative, I s'pose, and not do so much to poke the bear, so to speak.
> 
> ...


Irony lives, apparently. By the way: You could've taken a shot. Pete wasn't contracted to protect me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Speaking of places where I should have punched HWA, WatchWithUs posted a video today, featuring Brad talking with some brand owners at the show, including Wes from Nodus, Jimmy Collins, and two Microbrand University alums.
> 
> Worth watching, if you have a few...


And yet: im the guy saying NTH is the only micro with a midcase worth owning at any price. Keep talking ahit, hombre, and ill tell the masses to buy some slabby POS with a swiss movement.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Smirk all you want Doc, you'd be right to as yes I had raised a criticism of the thickness of the original NTH subs bracelet, now on the NTH Näcken Modern Black that I've got I find the bracelet thickness great, very similar in feel to the Oris and entirely proportionally sized to the watch. My tastes have changed and shall we say matured and now I appreciate it......


But did you go back and amend your earlier posts???

Just jerking your chain. We all suffer from the memory of our youthful indiscretions.



Hornet99 said:


> Which leads, interestingly, back to the strapcode bracelets, that they mainly are designed to fit large Seikos doesn't help; had one for the SRP775 Turtle and it seemed to double the weight. Eventually the weight (and the size) forced me to realise that 44mm watches weren't for me.


I wonder if it's the size, or simply the weight of them, which is obviously going to be more, all other things being equal, but is often more than it *needs* to be, because no one thought to keep it from being that way.

The DevilRay is my personal "can't decide" piece. I love the case design. It's "43mm", but it doesn't wear that way, I don't think. I think it wears much smaller.

I love the bracelet design. We wanted it to be more "hardcore", so we gave it more WR, which means more thickness, out of necessity, and thus, the bracelet is thicker.

Some have said it's simply "too heavy" on the bracelet, and I can't argue that it isn't all that heavy on it, because it is heavy enough to pull your gait to the left, and have you walking in circles, if you're not careful. Others have said the bracelet balances out the weight of the watch head, so it doesn't flop around the wrist whilst on a strap, and so it's a good thing.

I don't know, really. I do know that I've seen enough thick divers with ridiculously thin bracelets, and it always seems like a letdown to the people who owned them.

It's a question for the ages, perhaps - does size (in bracelet links) matter?



Hornet99 said:


> Having said that you did increase the thickness (ever so slightly) of the NTH bracelets if I remember correctly?


Yes, and yet...no, it seems.

I measured the old bracelet's C-shaped links in their middle, because that seemed logical, and specified I wanted the new bracelet's links to be incrementally thicker. I don't remember the exact numbers, but, at the time, I thought they were "right".

"Technically", the links on the new bracelet *are" thicker, but *only* in the middle. They're also ovoid, so thinner at their ends, whereas the original links had the same thickness from end-to-end.

Combined with the new links' shorter length, the new bracelet seems to look and feel even thinner than the old one did. I must have gone through some small amount of personal growth of my own recently, because I haven't tried to argue with anyone that the new bracelet's links are in fact thicker, despite obviously looking and feeling thinner.

If, let's just say, someone of noob tendencies was likely to equate "thinner bracelet" with "cheaper bracelet", I don't think I solved that particular problem. I think all we did was improve the overall quality, particularly of the clasp, and fix some of the other more nitpicky complaints about the original bracelet. I think the new bracelet "feels" better quality than the old (at least to most folks), but aside from the better clasp, they're about equal in quality.

I wish I could say that we no longer hear complaints about the bracelet, but I can't. There's still a quite small yet unreasonably vocal contingent of people who want CNC-machined end-links, those who prefer female end-links (you all already regret getting me started), and one guy who returned a watch because he seriously hated the new bracelet style, and much preferred the old one (to his credit, he was cool about it, and hadn't unwrapped the bracelet, which would have prevented a return for refund).

We also still have the usual "for that price, I wish it had an expansion clasp on it" crowd, and the "why can't you copy Rolex's patented glide-lock" crowd.

So...yeah, I've given up trying to please everyone, and will now happily settle for everyone simply agreeing not to piss in my ear with all their pet quibbles.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Irony lives, apparently. By the way: You could've taken a shot. Pete wasn't contracted to protect me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll be honest - I've got a lot of pent-up rage looking for someone to be on the receiving end of it. I don't want the guy who deserves just one quick gut-shot to be the one who opens the flood gates. For now, I think I'll keep my finger in the **** until I'm accosted on the street by someone who truly deserves the beating I'll be delivering.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> And yet: im the guy saying NTH is the only micro with a midcase worth owning at any price. Keep talking ahit, hombre, and ill tell the masses to buy some slabby POS with a swiss movement.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And CNC-machined end-links, amirite?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

No. Dont effin tempt me.

Sent from my iPhone using


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Doc, there’s a lawyer holding forth next to me at the bar. I want to stick my foot in his pompous effin mouth. Is that how you feel when you’re with me? I’m ashamed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

The new bracelet is better. Thick or thin, it doesn’t matter. It’s so good I might sell my BoR.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Doc, there's a lawyer holding forth next to me at the bar. I want to stick my foot in his pompous effin mouth. Is that how you feel when you're with me? I'm ashamed.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think of you as pompous. More alien.

Maybe pompous alien.

A lot of what you say doesn't make a lot of sense, yet you seem to think it's really profound and important.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I'm a strap guy, but definitely put me in the 2mm taper is better camp. 20-16 MAYBE on a dress watch I could see, but on a daily wear/sport piece it looks weird.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> Just FYI - we haven't even gotten the BOR's in yet. They got held up in customs clearance. We expected them today, but now it's looking like we'll get them tomorrow, which means Watch Gauge won't have them until net week.
> 
> No, the loyalty program is native to the NTH website, so you can't use the points on other sites, and purchases made on other sites don't accrue any points.


Ordered a steel sports watch, told i'm going to have to wait to get it. Just like Rolex, custoner service in the 21st century.

Guess i'll just have to paitently wait. That's the force in-demand watch houses can exert on loyal fan bases.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> Ordered a steel sports watch, told i'm going to have to wait to get it. Just like Rolex, custoner service in the 21st century.
> 
> Guess i'll just have to paitently wait. That's the force in-demand watch houses can exert on loyal fan bases.


I honestly didn't even know Watch Gauge had the BOR's up on their site already. I don't even have them available on my site yet.

Feel free to give John $hlt about it. I'll probably give him some next time I talk to him.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> I honestly didn't even know Watch Gauge had the BOR's up on their site already. I don't even have them available on my site yet.
> 
> Feel free to give John $hlt about it. I'll probably give him some next time I talk to him.


It's been such a long time since i've posted, just trying to make up fo lost time and get my count up without being accussed of speed posting.

I wrote both Nth and Watch Gauge about interest in the BoR and Watch Gauge wrote back. Said there were only a number of Ghost left (I said i was only interested with the BoR if I could pair it with the Ghost) so he may have jumped the gun a bit, but only because I prompted him to do so with a sale. He probably also expected the delivery to occur quicker, he mentioned they weren't in hand when he wrote back.

John has provided prompt and excellent service, as long as the watch and bracelet are delivered safely.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> It's been such a long time since i've posted, just trying to make up fo lost time and get my count up without being accussed of speed posting.
> 
> I wrote both Nth and Watch Gauge about interest in the BoR and Watch Gauge wrote back. Said there were only a number of Ghost left (I said i was only interested with the BoR if I could pair it with the Ghost) so he may have jumped the gun a bit, but only because I prompted him to do so with a sale. He probably also expected the delivery to occur quicker, he mentioned they weren't in hand when he wrote back.
> 
> John has provided prompt and excellent service, as long as the watch and bracelet are delivered safely.


It's all good.

I didn't see your message about the BOR's. If it was an email, or a contact page submission, and we didn't respond, please let me know when you sent it, so I can look into it.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> But did you go back and amend your earlier posts???
> 
> Just jerking your chain. We all suffer from the memory of our youthful indiscretions.
> 
> ...


I'll happily go back and dig out the original thread and resurrect it just for you Doc...... 
....if you're sure you want that, cause the argument was more than just the thickness if you remember! Nah, kidding you can't be @rsed. On a serious note, I'd say that the bracelet has improved and is going towards the Oris 65 in feel; thin, light but not in way that feels cheap. :-!

There's a thing about weight, diameter and height and I'm not sure I've worked it out. Take the seiko mini turtle that I've got, bought it on the rubber strap and happily wore it all summer. Bought a strapcode jubilee for it and suddenly it becomes a brick on the wrist, didn't want to wear it. Bought the OEM bracelet (which is half the weight) and it is much better. Again, and I'm repeating myself here, but I'm not entirely sure whether this is simply a change of tastes or whether I've just stopped kidding myself about the feel of wearing a brick on the wrist. Having the Tudor Pelagos had maybe changed my taste with the lack of mass, but I think I'd changed before that with having had enough of the full size seiko Turtles. I certainly didn't think I'd have bought a 38mm diameter watch, and be happy with it, in previous years, but I've got the Titanium helson and that's a dream on the wrist.......

.....I kept a spreadsheet of watch dimensions and stats, but I never put weight on this. Would have been interesting to add weight of watch head, weight of bracelet and bracelet thickness to that data. Wonder whether it would have shown anything.

......there's a thought Doc, how's about some LE Titanium NTH subs (preferably with a white dial cause I'm a hankering for that at the moment)? :think: oh and don't forget the CNC machined, female end links and the glide lock style expansion clasp (all for the same current pricing). In fact just make me a one off, [email protected] the rest of the customer base, I'm special b-).


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> What your 20mm-16mm taper looks like in my mind...
> 
> View attachment 14583859


Well, if you do a bad job designing it, sure.. 

Anyway..
I get that "there is probably a reason why other manufacturers aren't doing it" i.e. making high-taper bracelets, but... if it's not ease of production / less effort for them, then what is it?

I mean. Look back at how much work you yourself had to do to convince the factories to do your designs properly. How much effort it took to shave thickness on subs cases. How much back and forth when they did random changes for no good reason.

Do you really think those same people are making non-tapering or minimally-tapering bracelets because it would be good design or the best option objectively? I really doubt that. There has to be some element of least-effort or lower-cost (to them, not to you) involved, if they are the ones making the decisions. And their definition of "best" is not "best for the wearer", it's "best for us to make and sell to brands at a profit".


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Oris 65 tapers from 20mm to 14mm.










Weird at first but you get used to it. Each link is stepped, so probably easier to achieve?

Sent from my SM-T560 using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> I honestly didn't even know Watch Gauge had the BOR's up on their site already. I don't even have them available on my site yet.
> 
> Feel free to give John $hlt about it. I'll probably give him some next time I talk to him.


I saw last week that Watch Gauge was showing them as available, so I emailed them to verify. John emailed back and said that they were en route to him, and that they should be ready to ship by Monday (yesterday). Based on that I ordered one.

Mehh. Stuff happens. It's on the way. It'll get here when it gets here.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> In fact just make me a one off, [email protected] the rest of the customer base, I'm special b-).


This may be the statement that most describes my own foray into "collecting." I owned (still do, photo shortly) a Seiko SNA139 that I scratched all to hell. I went down the rabbit hole trying to replace it. Ventured into mods (thanks yobokies, nice work), then found WUS, and micro-brands, and expensive watches. I've gone through about 50-60 watches and pared down my collection in the last couple of years into roughly a dozen. And the reason I say "roughly" is that I've gifted a few to son and son-in-law.

The NTH fits me better than almost anything else. Bracelet and case included. The last year is a breakthrough of sorts, as the only thing I've purchased has been the new subs sporting the 12-hour bezel. I even sold a couple GMTs, which are now the focus of my small collection. I've been looking for something new for the last year, and can only find different, not better. Unless I break the $4000 barrier, which isn't likely.

I'm sure some will disagree, but big and thick watches just aren't my style.

Photo!


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Who needs "morning wood" when you have "morning lume"?









Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Hornet99 said:


> Oris 65 tapers from 20mm to 14mm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like that watch overall, but that dramatic taper looks bad, IMO. It's just not much of an issue because you rarely get to see a watch in such a way that the taper is noticeable.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> I'll happily go back and dig out the original thread and resurrect it just for you Doc......
> ....if you're sure you want that, cause the argument was more than just the thickness if you remember! Nah, kidding you can't be @rsed.


True, I cannot be @rsed. But neither should you be. I vaguely recall the debate. Sincerely, I didn't hold a grudge about it. I wasn't and still ain't mad atcha.

You were neither the first nor the last to complain about one of our bracelets, but not provide enough specific, constructive criticism to make it clear what needed to be improved. I can only remember that thin = cheap/low quality, which is a common enough assertion among many WIS, especially noobs.

It's often frustrated to me to read vague criticisms about our quality, without anything quantifiable, but then to hear/see lavish praise being heaped on watches/bracelets which I've found to be noticeably thinner/cheaper feeling, or rattly, but attached to a luxury brand watch, so, obviously beyond reproach.

No matter. I try to take the criticism in stride, and look for the improvements we can actually make.

There was a GTG here in Philly a few years back, where one of the BSHT guys, Don Logan, showed up with his MKII on its stock rivet bracelet. He clearly loved the bracelet. I honestly couldn't tell why. It felt cheap to me, no insult toward MKII intended. I suppose it was meant to approximate the vintage rivet bracelet from Rolex, and vintage Rolex bracelets were invariably thin/cheap feeling, it seems.

People complaining about "sharp edges", which I've never felt, despite relentless searching for them, has also been a frustration.

It turned out that link-edge finishing is something we can specify, but we hadn't realized it (no one told us, no one asked us). Our vendor had simply been giving us a sharp edge finish because another of their customers had insisted on it, and the bracelet vendor took that to mean western customers equated sharp edge finishing as a sign of quality. Perhaps true with case finishing (where polished surfaces meet brushed), but perhaps not with bracelet links.

I'm gratified to see people generally agree the new bracelet is an improvement over the original, both because I want people to be happy with the product, and I'd be miffed if the effort put into improving it was for naught.



Hornet99 said:


> On a serious note, I'd say that the bracelet has improved and is going towards the Oris 65 in feel; thin, light but not in way that feels cheap. :-!


I honestly can't remember seeing/feeling any Oris bracelet recently enough to have formed a lasting impression. I'm sure I've held one, so my guess is that it didn't strike me in any way as particularly good or particularly bad.

But that's not really saying anything much. I've seen so many watches in hand now, at so many GTG's and in so many AD's or shops, it's rare that any stand out in any way. Bracelets aren't rocket science. They're small pieces of steel chained together. The difference between good and bad is mostly incremental.

Having said that, I've recently had to delve into the reasons behind what makes one cost much more than another (aside from a luxury brand being attached to it). Perhaps not surprisingly, beyond basic design complexity (more vs fewer links across), the number of surfaces on the links seems to add cost quickly.

So, while links with faceted surfaces may not be "higher quality", in the objective sense, the added visual interest will make the bracelet more costly.



Hornet99 said:


> There's a thing about weight, diameter and height and I'm not sure I've worked it out. Take the seiko mini turtle that I've got, bought it on the rubber strap and happily wore it all summer. Bought a strapcode jubilee for it and suddenly it becomes a brick on the wrist, didn't want to wear it. Bought the OEM bracelet (which is half the weight) and it is much better. Again, and I'm repeating myself here, but I'm not entirely sure whether this is simply a change of tastes or whether I've just stopped kidding myself about the feel of wearing a brick on the wrist. Having the Tudor Pelagos had maybe changed my taste with the lack of mass, but I think I'd changed before that with having had enough of the full size seiko Turtles. I certainly didn't think I'd have bought a 38mm diameter watch, and be happy with it, in previous years, but I've got the Titanium helson and that's a dream on the wrist.......


I've been observing WIS behavior closely since September of 2012. While everyone is "different", I've seen a repeating pattern wherein guys start off with more mainstream tastes (read: "they like bigger/thicker/heavier watches with more complicated designs, which have been in vogue"), but inevitably end up liking smaller/thinner/lighter/simpler watches.

Congratulations, you're "normal", at least for a WIS.



Hornet99 said:


> .....I kept a spreadsheet of watch dimensions and stats, but I never put weight on this. Would have been interesting to add weight of watch head, weight of bracelet and bracelet thickness to that data. Wonder whether it would have shown anything.
> 
> ......there's a thought Doc, how's about some LE Titanium NTH subs (preferably with a white dial cause I'm a hankering for that at the moment)? :think: oh and don't forget the CNC machined, female end links and the glide lock style expansion clasp (all for the same current pricing). In fact just make me a one off, [email protected] the rest of the customer base, I'm special b-).


One of the reasons I started Microbrand University was the realization that most of the people working in the industry, and most in the market, simply don't understand how this industry *ought* to work, but doesn't, because it's "watches".

Ask any accountant what the inventory turnover ought to be in a business, and they'll invariably say the ratio ought to be 4 or higher, meaning the inventory turns over in 90 days or less (4 times per year, or more frequently). Most watch brands, big or small, would be doing cartwheels to achieve that rate.

As an example, vaunted Swatch Group has 2 *YEARS* (720 days) of stock on hand at any given time, equating to a turnover ratio of 0.5. Richemont's ratio is just under 1 - 379 days. (Source - https://www.ablogtowatch.com/ablogt...-industrys-biggest-problems-in-2019-beyond/2/). That's only *finished* (assembled) inventory. If they add not-yet-assembled components, the numbers double.

I'd say the average micro is similar, *if they're pricing appropriately for their costs*. If they're turning inventory over more quickly than once per year, or once every two, it's likely the result of under-pricing, or super-low production numbers (they found a vendor to produce much smaller than typical MOQ numbers).

Occasionally, you'll see a brand that isn't under-pricing, isn't doing multiple discount sales every year, and isn't producing in super-low numbers. Those are typically the darlings of the huge blogs, or spending a ton on advertising, or getting great traction through social media.

This is one of the biggest challenges facing smaller brands. Our minimum production quantity for major components (like the case) is 500 pieces. We might be able to get a vendor to produce 300 (at a higher unit cost), but 500 is the norm. A brand would need to sell 2,000 watches per year to turn 500 pieces over in 90 days. Most micros aren't doing that sort of volume.

Before I start developing a new product, any new product, I try to envision whether or not I can realistically sell 300-500 of them in 3 months. Usually, I can't see that as being realistic. How many I can realistically see myself selling, and in what time frame, determines whether or not I invest the time in that product's development. Some projects get green-lighted for more strategic reasons, and we'll produce them in smaller numbers.

It ends up being a comparison to all other alternatives. Titanium, bronze, a $1000 GMT, a $1500 chrono, a ladies watch, a dress watch, something <40mm - rationaiizing the project is difficult, when I compare it to something else which seems more certain to sell in larger numbers and/or more quickly, and can be brought to market more quickly, with more certain costs (we're starting to see rapid movement price changes become a problem).

It's not simple greed. Too many brand owners think it's okay to sit on inventory as long as it takes to sell, or that it's okay to under-price it. So long as they're charging more for it than it cost to produce, they're "making a profit", no matter how thin, or how long it takes.

I've learned firsthand how that simply doesn't work. The fixed overhead costs will kill you. Inevitably, a business that can't turn its inventory over quickly enough, while charging enough for it, won't grow, and will likely go out of business. If I can't pay the bills, what good am I? I won't be here for the long haul.

When my production and sales volume grow large enough, I'll be able to rationalize any/all such projects. But until then, I have to be ruthless in my decision-making, because the survival of my business depends on it.

So...none of those ideas merit inclusion in the product development plan, at least not yet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Well, if you do a bad job designing it, sure..
> 
> Anyway..
> I get that "there is probably a reason why other manufacturers aren't doing it" i.e. making high-taper bracelets, but... if it's not ease of production / less effort for them, then what is it?
> ...


Not wanting to be argumentative here...

I see your point, in the macro, at least. But specifically with regards to bracelet taper, I don't think there's any correlation to ease of production or costs/profits, or at least not a direct, cause-and-effect sort of relationship.

I really think it's just the market finding its natural point of homeostasis. Market demand drives (or at least, it should drive) product development. It's not an exact science, though. There's some "feel" to it.

My "feel" tells me a 2mm taper is as acceptable to a guy who wants no taper at all as it is to a guy who wants a 4mm taper, whereas having no taper or a 4mm taper might be a bigger sticking point.

For the XL Sub, I'm betting that it'll be less of a sticking point going from 22mm to 18mm than it would be going from 20mm to 16mm, but that's also just my gut instinct, nothing particularly scientific. I'm willing to make that gamble in part because I see the additional benefit of using the same clasp on both Subs' models.

In other recent posts, I've said what drives bracelet cost. It's the design complexity, specifically, how many links across a bracelet has (and I suppose, how short the links are, if that means more links to be assembled in order to meet a minimum bracelet length), and the number of surfaces/finishes on the links.

Admittedly, I haven't specifically asked if a 4mm taper adds cost over a 2mm taper, so I could be wrong, but I honestly can't imagine why it would matter. If there's a cost difference, it has to be negligible, not worth consideration.

There are a handful of things which really drive big cost differences - movement, point of assembly, WR ratings, QC standards, bracelet vs strap, and crystal material / shape.

Beyond those, all the potential differences bring incremental / marginal / negligible cost differences, which might add up to be substantial in the aggregate, but individually aren't worth arguing over, in my experience/opinion.

My vendor once told me something I wanted to do would be "expensive". I asked him how much, and was told it would add $1 per unit. On a small, inexpensive component, like a dial or handset, that is a lot to add - to that one component - but in the greater scheme of things, it's nothing to worry about.

If a 4mm taper is $1 more than a 2mm taper, I'd be mildly surprised, but wouldn't spend any effort trying to find a way around it in a ~$700 watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Oris 65 tapers from 20mm to 14mm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My hunch is they're stepped because of the riveted sides. The rivet studs/caps probably require the links' sides to be a perpendicular surface.

Not necessarily harder to achieve, so much as necessary for execution.

And yes, 20mm to 14mm is weird, and I don't know that I'd be able to get used to it.

My approach to product design has been to look at what's been done, and try to objectively assess whether it should be done that way again, because that was "right" (as objectively as such a thing can be decided), or if it can be improved by doing it differently. I don't want my admiration or respect for an icon to prevent me from offering customers some improvement, no matter how small.

If I wanted to, I could make a watch more like a vintage Rolex - anodized aluminum bezel insert, thin, rattly bracelet with hollow end-links, etc. You guys would all hate it.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> My "feel" tells me a 2mm taper is as acceptable to a guy who wants no taper at all as it is to a guy who wants a 4mm taper, whereas having no taper or a 4mm taper might be a bigger sticking point.
> 
> For the XL Sub, I'm betting that it'll be less of a sticking point going from 22mm to 18mm than it would be going from 20mm to 16mm, but that's also just my gut instinct, nothing particularly scientific.


That's probably the case, yeah. And in objective terms, makes sense.

As for the cost savings, what comes to mind for me is that a bracelet tapering by 4mm requires more sizes of certain link variants than a bracelet tapering by 2mm or not at all. (e.g. on that Oris65 bracelet, the center-link section is the same, but how many side-slab sizes are needed? More than if that bracelet didn't taper). Less variation for components means less hassle for the manufacturer, less blanks to deal with.. If those manufacturers are so concerned about a $1 diff per part (assuming here that "part" means an entire bracelet or an entire case or an entire dial), then that kinda shows where their priorities are at, and (more relevant) how they will design their "ready to use" components to offer to brands.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> I saw last week that Watch Gauge was showing them as available, so I emailed them to verify. John emailed back and said that they were en route to him, and that they should be ready to ship by Monday (yesterday). Based on that I ordered one.
> 
> Mehh. Stuff happens. It's on the way. It'll get here when it gets here.


He wasn't lying. They were in route, and I expected them last week.

They got hung up in customs for longer than normal, because they were shipped with some parts, which weren't correctly classified on the customs declaration.

For some reason, they've also been randomly circulating the delivery point for the last 2 days, which I can't explain.

If John had asked me, I'd have cautioned him against listing them for sale before he had them ready to ship, for exactly this reason, but he didn't ask.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I used to think I'd prefer a highly tapered bracelet, as I don't really like having a 22mm band all the way around my wrist. Too big on the underside of my wrist. And then, Eureka, I realized I actually just needed a smaller watch. 40mm case, 20mm bracelet tapering to 18. Voila!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> That's probably the case, yeah. And in objective terms, makes sense.
> 
> As for the cost savings, what comes to mind for me is that a bracelet tapering by 4mm requires more sizes of certain link variants than a bracelet tapering by 2mm or not at all. (e.g. on that Oris65 bracelet, the center-link section is the same, but how many side-slab sizes are needed? More than if that bracelet didn't taper). Less variation for components means less hassle for the manufacturer, less blanks to deal with.. If those manufacturers are so concerned about a $1 diff per part (assuming here that "part" means an entire bracelet or an entire case or an entire dial), then that kinda shows where their priorities are at, and (more relevant) how they will design their "ready to use" components to offer to brands.


As I was typing my earlier response, it did occur to me that there might in fact be some added cost stemming from the fact that there might be more variation among the links' width, if the taper took place over more of the bracelet's length, as opposed to making the taper happen within the first few/permanent links, and having all the replacement links be the same size.

I didn't mention it, only because it seemed too deep in the weeds to be worth contemplating.

But, assuming more taper = more cost...I know how much the bracelet typically adds to the total unit production cost of the watch, and unless some aspect of bracelet design adds A LOT to the bracelet's cost (and I don't think more taper would add a lot more cost), I don't think it's enough to be a major decision point in product development.

For certain, I've seen how vendors will have default options for some components simply because they've come to believe those options are "better", or that we all want "cheaper", even if the savings is extremely small.

For me, as a brand-owner, thinking about cost savings is a balancing act. I know many, if not most customers tend to look at the big things, the things that end up in the spec sheet. Most aren't willing to accept that some little thing adds enough cost that I have to charge more.

Many tend to put mental (and often arbitrary) "ceilings" on what they'll spend for a watch based on a handful of things, so I sometimes have to find ways to save small amounts where we can, in order to keep the retail price under those ceilings.

As an example - the original Zelos Hammerhead...bronze case, legit WR, ceramic bezel insert, meteorite dial, and Seiko NH35 movement - $800. I can't throw a rock in this forum and not hit a guy who doesn't want to pay even $500 for a watch with that movement in it. But, bronze case, legit WR, ceramic bezel insert, meteorite dial - those add up.

The Lew & Huey Legends Racer didn't make it to production for a few reasons, but I think the root cause was the 8217 movement. That watch, at $450, was fairly priced, given all it had going for it (which was a lot), and what it would have cost us to produce it. But too many guys can't see past the 8217 and $450 price-tag, so we killed it in utero. I didn't want to "dumb down" the design to make it cheaper. We just killed it.

By comparison, our next model, the Phantom, was a huge hit (suck it, all you haters who giddily claimed I was done after the Legends). It was identically priced, because it cost the same to produce. It had the same or similar-enough specs, but it had the newer, hacking and hand-winding Seiko NH35, which doesn't have the 8 series' stigma.

With that model, we didn't put any effort into keeping the costs down. Every thing we did, from the lumed minute markers to the engraved-and-etched caseback, added some small amount of cost, but clearly, the final result justified those costs.

Yes, the designs were very different, but IMO, the Legends Racer was a more interesting, more exciting design. I got to show it to some guys at a recent GTG, and the guys who loved it said they'd spend $500 or more for it. No one ever told me they loved the Phantom enough to spend more than $500 for it.

The point is, I don't think it's fair to look at cost-savings in a vacuum, as something brand owners view cynically, trying to shave cost wherever they can. At least for me, it comes down to sell-ability. If the final result will sell, eff it, go for all the cool stuff. If all the cool stuff doesn't add up to something that will sell, cut some of that $hlt out, so there's a return on your investment in product development.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Some watches look better to me with a taper, others don't. A noticeable taper looks better with slimmer, sleeker cases, but more heavyweight, bulky cases can sometimes look unbalanced with a visible taper.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

This is all very interesting but the most important question right now is this... have I found the perfect strap for my Barracuda Brown? I love the watch, but have always struggled to find a strap I genuinely love. I've got a brown peanut suede, which is almost dressy, but now I've got a grey Barton strap. Will post pics anon, the real thing is more slate-grey when you see it.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Try this brown canvas from Crown & Buckle. It's a great match to the Holland's brown bezel and (I bet) would look great on the Barracuda Brown.









Also on the F71 Emperor:


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> This is all very interesting but the most important question right now is this... have I found the perfect strap for my Barracuda Brown? I love the watch, but have always struggled to find a strap I genuinely love. I've got a brown peanut suede, which is almost dressy, but now I've got a grey Barton strap. Will post pics anon, the real thing is more slate-grey when you see it.
> 
> View attachment 14585321


I'd probably put it on a black suede or horween strap with brown contrast stitching.

Or maybe on the B&R Rosewood Croco:


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

kpjimmy said:


> I think it's a Cobra de Calibre. Great designed watches IMO.


Yep, that's it. One of my early WIS purchases, my first of many California dials, and a great watch. A little big for me these days, but I love the quirky design elements and the dial color.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> What your 20mm-16mm taper looks like in my mind...
> 
> View attachment 14583859


Lol! Never skip leg day!

I had the same response to this roll-of-the-dice 18mm BOR for my old Omega:


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

Actually really happy with this sail cloth from Barton (no filters on admittedly very crappy photo).


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> My hunch is they're stepped because of the riveted sides. The rivet studs/caps probably require the links' sides to be a perpendicular surface.
> 
> Not necessarily harder to achieve, so much as necessary for execution.
> 
> ...


The taper was so extreme at first that I was thinking of returning it, but eventually got used to it and now love it.......

I'm sure if you made something more like a vintage Rolex, as you've suggested, the BSHT (or whatever the acronym is) would love it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Hornet99 said:


> The taper was so extreme at first that I was thinking of returning it, but eventually got used to it and now love it.......
> 
> I'm sure if you made something more like a vintage Rolex, as you've suggested, the BSHT (or whatever the acronym is) would love it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


what modern watch has that agressive 20-16 taper?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Hornet99 said:


> The taper was so extreme at first that I was thinking of returning it, but eventually got used to it and now love it.......
> 
> I'm sure if you made something more like a vintage Rolex, as you've suggested, the BSHT (or whatever the acronym is) would love it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


what modern watch has that agressive 20-16 taper?


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

JLS36 said:


> what modern watch has that agressive 20-16 taper?


Rolex submariner?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I don't think of you as pompous. More alien.
> 
> Maybe pompous alien.
> 
> A lot of what you say doesn't make a lot of sense, yet you seem to think it's really profound and important.


People tend to disparage what they cannot understand.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Hornet99 said:


> Rolex submariner?


Ty

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> This is all very interesting but the most important question right now is this... have I found the perfect strap for my Barracuda Brown? I love the watch, but have always struggled to find a strap I genuinely love. I've got a brown peanut suede, which is almost dressy, but now I've got a grey Barton strap. Will post pics anon, the real thing is more slate-grey when you see it.


My collection of Chris Ward straps. Stiff out of the box, particularly the shell cordovans, but I put them on a watch off my wrist and squeeze them like a stress ball, and after a few minutes they soften up and are extremely comfortable. I'd also recommend checking out Strapsco and Watch Gecko for straps, they both have tons of options, including many with QR. All Chris Ward straps have QR.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> He wasn't lying. They were in route, and I expected them last week.
> 
> They got hung up in customs for longer than normal, because they were shipped with some parts, which weren't correctly classified on the customs declaration.
> 
> ...


Like I said, "Mehh." I know that in 2019 we're supposed to internet all over everything whenever stuff doesn't turn out exactly the way we expect it to, but that's not a world I want to live in and I won't contribute to it. I also don't need my watch suppliers to choose their words like lawyers lest they inadvertently misspeak.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> My collection of Chris Ward straps. Stiff out of the box, particularly the shell cordovans, but I put them on a watch off my wrist and squeeze them like a stress ball, and after a few minutes they soften up and are extremely comfortable. I'd also recommend checking out Strapsco and Watch Gecko for straps, they both have tons of options, including many with QR. All Chris Ward straps have QR.
> 
> View attachment 14586547


+1 for Watch Gecko. I've been consistently happy with my purchases from them. This ZuluDiver is the best aftermarket strap that I own.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

You know what strap looks *amazing* on the Barracuda Brown?

The stock steel bracelet.

That's how I wear mine. I like it, and so should you.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> People tend to disparage what they cannot understand.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Preach, brother, preach.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Like I said, "Mehh." I know that in 2019 we're supposed to internet all over everything whenever stuff doesn't turn out exactly the way we expect it to, but that's not a world I want to live in and I won't contribute to it. I also don't need my watch suppliers to choose their words like lawyers lest they inadvertently misspeak.


I didn't think you were upset, FWIW.

I had to talk to John about something else today, so I mentioned to him he ought to be sure to tell peeps the bracelets are a week away, just to be conservative. Apparently he got the impression we had them in already, and he'd have them last Friday or yesterday.

It wasn't a "clean up your backyard" talk. It was just a "might want to let peeps know you snore before room assignments are made" talk.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

What I had to talk to John about...

There are ~300 NTH Subs left available, globally, which sounds like a big number, until I tell you that it's just ~15 per model (not counting date/no-date options, which would make it 7-8 per SKU), and we've been averaging ~150-200 per month being sold for the trailing 12 months. Do the math, and you'll see that we should be sold out before the year ends.

Right on time - I've got 100 pieces being assembled for January, but nothing else in the pipeline will be ready until March-April, at the earliest, because of Chinese New Year, and because I haven't been able to figure out what I want to make after those 100 pieces.

Where John comes in - I'm trying to "equalize" that inventory by getting my retailers to swap pieces, so that they all have some of everything, and no one is overstock on anything. There's no reason for one of them to be sold out of something if there are five of them sitting in another guy's stock room, or wherever.

Y'all know where this is going, right?

If you have your eye on one of the 19-20 Subs models we've made in the last 12 months, your window of opportunity is rapidly closing.

Please, for the love of God, do NOT be the guy who asks me when I'll make more ____ the day after the last one available sells.

Don't even think about telling me I need to fix my supply chain, because I'm "always sold out", when we've had stock (somewhere) on 19-20 models available for 2-3 months at a time going back to April/May of this year.

Yes, there was a guy on IG who told me that.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Because my OCD makes me think that needs to be clarified, perhaps repeatedly...

No matter how many we make of anything, there will always be at least one guy interested in something after it sells out, because he just discovered the brand, or just found that model, or didn't realize we don't own the machines and aren't making them in infinite numbers, blah, blah, blah. Last week my marketing guy's new hire was pissing in my ear about the Oberon - which sold out two years ago.

I can't make just *ONE* piece for that *ONE* guy who wants one, now, and has the money to buy it, now.

(Don't even get me started on the guy who asks me when we'll make more, then, when I tell him there are still some available, he tells me he doesn't actually have the money to buy one right now.)

No matter what we make, we assemble a minimum of 25 pieces (25 date, 25 no-date, as an example), but usually no more than that 25 at one time, unless we KNOW there's enough demand to assemble 50 or more.

We have to make a minimum of 50 per dial, which means 25 dials get put on the shelf for later, if we only assemble 25. We'll come back and make the other 25, eventually, but it ain't gonna be today, Poindexter, just because you want *ONE*, and you want it now.

As far as I care, those 25 dials can sit there and rust, if there's not enough demand to make me think I can sell all 25 watches in less than 90 days. Dials are cheap, even good ones. Much cheaper to have dials rusting on the shelf than watches I can't sell in my inventory.

To make me think I can sell 25 in 90 days, I need 2-3 guys asking me to make more, every week, for a good long while, before I'm convinced it's time to make more. My rule of thumb is one in ten guys isn't completely full of $hlt when they say "I'd buy it right now if it was available, shut up and take my money!"

If you want one that bad, find 24 friends to pay for them up front, and I'll have 25 assembled for you.

That's assuming we didn't already use the other dials to make another 25, which really means the other 50 (25 date, plus, you know, also 25 no-date). That's 100 watches with that dial, between the first 50 (25/25) we assembled, and the second 50. With most versions, that's enough supply to meet demand for two years, maybe more (see: "Oberon", above).

I'll make another 2000 watches next year, but they may not include the one you want. Good luck finding that one of 25, 50 or 100 on WatchRecon if not. Ask Hornet how his search for one of the 50 Nazario Sauros has gone. Ask Yankee what it would take to pry his away from his collection. Someone stole Keil's at a GTG, they liked it so much.

I'm not bull$hltting. When the last one sells, that will be the LAST ONE, for a while, and maybe forever. Piss in someone else's ear. Mine's already full.

You know I ain't lying. I deliver this same spiel every few months. Not long after, we're sold out. Not long after that, someone will show up, acting surprised that the watch he wants isn't available anymore.

Like I say, don't be that guy. Get what you want before it's gone. You snooze, you lose.

Don't say I didn't give you a heads up. Don't ask when I'll make more. I'm being your friend here.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

So, more Nazario Sauros then? I mean, there’s really only 49 out there with one transformed into a 36mm Explorer. Hornet definitely has company...


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

docvail said:


> You know what strap looks *amazing* on the Barracuda Brown?
> 
> The stock steel bracelet.
> 
> That's how I wear mine. I like it, and so should you.


Stop making sense, I don't like it.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> You know what strap looks *amazing* on the Barracuda Brown?
> 
> The stock steel bracelet.
> 
> That's how I wear mine. I like it, and so should you.


Gotta disagree there. One of the reasons I don't own a Clean Ocean Aquis is that you can't (easily) put a strap on it. Bracelets are boring, and heavy, and have to be sized, and sometimes the clasp isn't exactly the way you want it, and oh look, it's covered in desk diving scratches. The first minute after my Nacken MB was out of the box, the bracelet was off, and didn't go back on until it moved on to the new owner.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> So, more Nazario Sauros then? I mean, there's really only 49 out there with one transformed into a 36mm Explorer. Hornet definitely has company...


Appeal to John Keil, not to me. He owns Watch Gauge. It's a WG exclusive. If he wants to roll the bones on making another 50, it's his call, not mine.

I'm sure he'd want to snag one for himself, seeing as how someone may have absconded with his.

*TRUE STORY - *

I didn't want to believe someone would snatch a watch at a GTG. I know John. He's a friend. But I'll tell him to his face that keeping his $hlt organized isn't his strong suit, at least not when he's wheeling it all around with him in crates on hand-trucks.

I was at that event, sanding at the table next to his. I brought a box of inventory for him. I handed it to him, looked him dead in the eye, told him it was inventory he'd paid for, told him to put it aside somewhere safe (like under the table), and to make sure he went through it and cross-checked it against his order when he returned to his office.

What's he do? He nods, plops it down on the floor, sort of around the corner and behind us (because he was afraid he'd forget it if it was under the table, at his feet), and doesn't give it another glance the rest of the night. At one point, he forgot where he put it, and almost left it there.

Thank God he didn't. He eventually scooped it up, and put it in one of his wheeled crates...where he forgot about it. A week later he's calling me to ask where his order is. We both had a moment of sheer panic, thinking he left that box sitting at the bar in NYC.

"Oh. Never mind. We're good. I got it here in one of my crates..." still unopened, inventory yet to be returned to his stock room shelves.

I was sure he'd find his Nazario, eventually, buried in one of his inventory crates, somewhere.

But, nope, many moons later, there's no sign of it, and he's looked everywhere, he says, so it appears it was lost, perhaps stolen (but, knowing John's habits, the odds of someone stealing it versus him just leaving it somewhere are 50-50). At least it was a NY GTG, not a Philly GTG. I can at least avoid feeling guilty for what someone in my city (might have) done.

So...then there's District Time, two weeks back. He lost not one, not two, not three, but - wait for it - FOUR watches, in a roll.

He's not positive, but he thinks he put the roll in his laptop bag when we left the venue at the end of his first day. It either fell out, or someone reached in and took it when he wasn't looking. Maybe a pickpocket on the street, or maybe someone at the bar next door, or the other one up the street (so we had some drinks, it was Saturday night, don't get all up in my grill about it).

He told me what the four pieces were. I'm positive there was the light-blue Draken Tugela LE. I think there was also an NTH Sub (I forget which one), an Ocean Crawler, and something else I'm just completely blanking on.

Whatever. Someone in DC is well on their way to having a respectable collection of microbrand watches, thanks either to brazen larceny, or John's total lack of situational awareness.

If he ever asks to borrow one of your watches...get a security deposit from him, because odds are decent neither of you will ever see that watch again, once he takes it off his wrist.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Gotta disagree there. One of the reasons I don't own a Clean Ocean Aquis is that you can't (easily) put a strap on it. Bracelets are boring, and heavy, and have to be sized, and sometimes the clasp isn't exactly the way you want it, and oh look, it's covered in desk diving scratches. The first minute after my Nacken MB was out of the box, the bracelet was off, and didn't go back on until it moved on to the new owner.
> 
> View attachment 14587097


Horses for courses isn't it? As much as I want to like putting my watches on straps I can't stand 'em, the only strap I can tolerate is the Seiko OEM rubbers. Bracelets all the way baby!


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> .......I'll make another 2000 watches next year, but they may not include the one you want........
> 
> I'm not bull$hltting. When the last one sells, that will be the LAST ONE, for a while, and maybe forever.......


.....just for clarification Doc are you really saying that the next run of NTH subs might be the last?


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Hornet99 said:


> Horses for courses isn't it? As much as I want to like putting my watches on straps I can't stand 'em, the only strap I can tolerate is the Seiko OEM rubbers. Bracelets all the way baby!


I am sort of OCD about this. What bothers me is that the strap ends are rarely curved while the watch case remains curved between the lugs forming two triangles between the inner lug corners.

That's why I am fine with straps on a vostok 710 since its straight between the lugs whereas the uneven free space on a NTH bothers me.

Also, rubber straps rarely come in different sizes and the buckle could be off centered on the underside of the wrist leading the watch to sit uneven on the wrist and generally looking ugly. Bracelets and perlon straps eliminate this problem since I can center most bracelets very evenly.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Seikogi said:


> I am sort of OCD about this. What bothers me is that the strap ends are rarely curved while the watch case remains curved between the lugs forming two triangles between the inner lug corners.
> 
> That's why I am fine with straps on a vostok 710 since its straight between the lugs whereas the uneven free space on a NTH bothers me.
> 
> Also, rubber straps rarely come in different sizes and the buckle could be off centered on the underside of the wrist leading the watch to sit uneven on the wrist and generally looking ugly. Bracelets and perlon straps eliminate this problem since I can center most bracelets very evenly.


The only straps I ever liked were these MILTAT zizz canvas, but even then gaps were an irritation......



















Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## det55 (Apr 19, 2017)

OK, dumb question about pricing. I know there was a price increase recently, but I'm confused seeing inventory at the new and old prices out there. For instance I saw on one of the retailers has Nacken White with & without date at different prices (cheaper for with date). Does this indicate it's older inventory? Are there any product differences that went along with the price increase that prevent you from increasing prices across the board? I'm partly just curious but also think it'd be valuable to know what I'm missing, if anything, if I go with the older inventory.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Right on time - I've got 100 pieces being assembled for January...


Um... just for planning purposes on my end, would that include the much anticipated (by me) Scorpene w/ 12hr bezel...?


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Taking the Tikuna for a test ride...I like it doc..fresh and diff design...very nice








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I like bracelets. I like some straps. Sometimes I wear my Amphion Commando on the stock bracelet, which is pretty darn nice. Fits better than the aftermarket bracelet I tried out recently.

When I got the Amphion, I went on a strap swapping spree and there's plenty straps I didn't like on it. We all have our little vexing issues that make zero sense to others -- like, I have no issue with the Dreaded Triangles Of Space referenced above, and think it odd that anyone would. On my end, however, with thinner straps, I didn't like the amount of lug side-wall showing. Many are all, like, "Wut?!?" but for me, it kills off a lot of strap choices.

Went back to the bracelet for a while. But then I noticed I was wearing a lot of watches on bracelets and decided to give my EO MN strap a shot. Fits well and the red stripe on the black strap really matches the design of the Commando well. Haven't bothered going back to the stock bracelet yet, but I imagine its only a matter of time.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> .....just for clarification Doc are you really saying that the next run of NTH subs might be the last?


That wasn't how I meant it, but...yes, possibly.

What I meant was that if we make 100 of something, in two 50-piece batches, that may be all we make, ever, or at least for some time.

Take the Skipjack. We made 50 pieces available last November (25 date/25 no-date), then another 50 pieces mid-year. That's all of the 100 dials we made. If we want to make more, I have to make another 100 dials, and I'd need to see there's enough demand to rationalize that.

Unless and until I do, I'm not making more of that version, and there will just be those 100. When the last one sells, that's the LAST one, in that scenario.

We've never made a second batch of the Oberon (at least not that I can remember), or the Santa Fe, or the Zwaarvis, or the Tiburon, and probably some other models that just aren't immediately popping into my head. It took us 2 years to make a second batch of the Scorpene Black.

When the last piece of some version sells out, unless that version proved wildly popular, and sold out instantly, we'll probably wait to make more, if we ever do, especially if we've gone through the first 100 dials we made (50 date, 50 no-date, or in the case of no-date-only models, just 50).

Even if we still have 50 dials on the shelf, what's the point in using them if I don't see the demand? Let them sit on the shelf for years, or forever, if need be.

As for the Subs as a complete model range - let me try to make this clear...

We have 100 being assembled for January, and ~300 cases left available for assembly after that, before we have to produce another 500 cases, minimum.

I've been ordering cases produced in multiples of 300, but in quantities over 600, so that we can meet the 500-piece MOQ on cases, and also (usually) meet the 300-piece minimum order quantity for assembly.

The 100 pieces for January are the result of having to make some production changes on the fly this past year. We ended up having 100 "extra". The assembly team wants to assemble 300 at a time, but here and there, I can get them to do fewer, as needs arise. They'll make exceptions for me because I do decent volume, and I otherwise behave myself, at least in the last 18 months, since going there for a come-to-***** meeting last year.

So, if we make more, we'll probably make at least 600, so we can assemble 300 at a time. I want to say if I don't see enough demand for 600, then I'd just make 500 and be done with it. But really, if there isn't demand for 600, there may not be enough for 500, so I'd want to make 300 (getting an exception to the 500pc MOQ on cases, which, again, I can do, because *****), and at that point, I might instead just not make any at all, until we see demand build up again.

I'm willing to bet that the 40mm Subs will remain popular, and a staple of the brand's production, and we'll keep making them for as long as we can sell them, but:

1. Eventually, every product comes to the end of its life-cycle, and gets killed off. I can't predict when that will be, but before I pull the trigger on another 600 cases, minimum, I'd like to be very certain that there's still enough demand to sell them all, 300 at a time, in 90 days, on average, and in two consecutive productions, in quick succession, so, 600 pieces sold within 6 months.

2. A plane could crash into me tomorrow. None of us is guaranteed another day of life. While I've been able to get some people to help me run this business, and I no longer do everything myself, if a plane did crash into me, it's hard to imagine anyone having the time, ability, and willingness to step up, buy the business from my wife, and keep it going.

Business succession planning was actually my specialty before I quit financial services. It's kind of a cobbler's kids got no shoes situation right now, but I've got enough life insurance to keep me from feeling like I'm putting my family at risk. I'll figure out how to build some transferability into the business, eventually, but not today.

If I did suddenly disappear, Josh and Julie can get into the back of my website to handle any pending orders. I'm sure Keil would step up to help, and maybe he'd want to buy NTH.

3. I've got other models in mind to produce next year. I'm already envisioning 600-900 pieces of other stuff (2-4 other models, beside the 40mm Subs). It's difficult to manage and finance overlapping production cycles, especially if there's a large production of 40mm Subs in the mix, so there could be a break in Subs' production. If so, and if the other stuff proves to be more successful during that break, then, in that scenario, I'd keep making the other stuff, and not the Subs.

What's on my mind for next year, you ask?

We're developing an updated versions of the Tropics.

We've been and continue working on the XL Subs.

Depending on how things shake out, I think we might conceivably make another run of DevilRays.

I've got a couple other ideas I've been toying with, but haven't had time to develop.

Plus, with Microbrand University, things are heating up. We're planning to do our next workshop in Dublin, Ireland, and we're working to build an online version of MBU. There's a lot of work to do there. And, I've gotten sucked into being involved in a couple of projects with guys who've gone through the course.

One project I'm involved in has been in the works for much of this year, and will hopefully be revealed to the world very soon. I know you guys are going to love it. When you hear the story behind the project, you'll immediately see why I was involved. It's kind of obvious.

The other guy is just getting started with his project, but it could start taking up more of my time soon. It's a bit off-the-wall crazy, but also possibly genius. I like crazy-with-the-possibility-of-genius, so I told him I was in, if he wanted me in, which he does. That one's going to be a wild ride.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> I am sort of OCD about this. What bothers me is that the strap ends are rarely curved while the watch case remains curved between the lugs forming two triangles between the inner lug corners.
> 
> That's why I am fine with straps on a vostok 710 since its straight between the lugs whereas the uneven free space on a NTH bothers me.
> 
> Also, rubber straps rarely come in different sizes and the buckle could be off centered on the underside of the wrist leading the watch to sit uneven on the wrist and generally looking ugly. Bracelets and perlon straps eliminate this problem since I can center most bracelets very evenly.





Hornet99 said:


> The only straps I ever liked were these MILTAT zizz canvas, but even then gaps were an irritation......


Some days I wonder how the average WIS makes it out of the house without having a complete meltdown at all the imperfection in the world...


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> That wasn't how I meant it, but...yes, possibly.
> 
> What I meant was that if we make 100 of something, in two 50-piece batches, that may be all we make, ever, or at least for some time.
> 
> ...


So, buy one now cause when that plane crashes into you these will be sought after?


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Some days I wonder how the average WIS makes it out of the house without having a complete meltdown at all the imperfection in the world...


I don't go out. I sit in darkened room gently caressing my watches, repeating "my precious....." over and over.......


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

det55 said:


> OK, dumb question about pricing. I know there was a price increase recently, but I'm confused seeing inventory at the new and old prices out there. For instance I saw on one of the retailers has Nacken White with & without date at different prices (cheaper for with date). Does this indicate it's older inventory? Are there any product differences that went along with the price increase that prevent you from increasing prices across the board? I'm partly just curious but also think it'd be valuable to know what I'm missing, if anything, if I go with the older inventory.


Not that dumb a question. We've had much dumber.

There's no "older inventory" out there. Everything for sale has been released within the last year.

Currency exchange rates play a role. When we're leading up to a release date, I tell all my retailers what the USD price is, and we'll figure out what that equates to in their currency. After that, I'm not going to make them update the price daily, as the exchange rates change. That's nuts.

Instead, periodically, if we see a big change, we might address the price discrepancy, but that's difficult to do and keep things fair. For instance, with the dollar rising, I don't want US customers taking advantage of a weak currency in some other part of the world, which hurts Keil's sales. But if I push a retailer to raise their prices, it hurts their sales in their own country/region. What do we do when their currency goes back up, tell them to lower their prices?

When we raised prices earlier this year, I told them the new prices, and we figured out what the prices would be in their own currency. It's possible one may have messed up and not updated the price somewhere, but more likely, if you're seeing a difference, and it's small, it's likely the result of changing exchange rates.

If there are two different prices for the same product, based on date vs no-date, that's a mistake, but it could also be you're viewing a cached or "hidden" page. Someone recently found NTH Subs "for sale" on a site that hasn't actually had any at all in almost two years. Somehow that person discovered a page the store's owners didn't realize was still visible, and could be found with an internet search.

All that said - feel free to post a link, and I'll take a look. Maybe peeps will score a bargain before I can get the store to update its prices.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Um... just for planning purposes on my end, would that include the much anticipated (by me) Scorpene w/ 12hr bezel...?


Maybe. I'll let you know when we get closer to January.



Mil6161 said:


> Taking the Tikuna for a test ride...I like it doc..fresh and diff design...very nice
> View attachment 14587905
> 
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


It's quirky-cool, right?

I'm happy that people seem to dig it. I wasn't positive people would like it, but sometimes you gotta gamble a bit if you want to grow.



mconlonx said:


> I like bracelets. I like some straps. Sometimes I wear my Amphion Commando on the stock bracelet, which is pretty darn nice. Fits better than the aftermarket bracelet I tried out recently.
> 
> When I got the Amphion, I went on a strap swapping spree and there's plenty straps I didn't like on it. We all have our little vexing issues that make zero sense to others -- like, I have no issue with the Dreaded Triangles Of Space referenced above, and think it odd that anyone would. On my end, however, with thinner straps, I didn't like the amount of lug side-wall showing. Many are all, like, "Wut?!?" but for me, it kills off a lot of strap choices.
> 
> ...


I like bracelets. I've come to realize the only straps I can tolerate are seatbelt NATOs, or similar, like that ZuluAlpha strap I got from the guy in the UK. Those things are bananas, in a good way.

I've tried on one of those elastic straps, and didn't jive with it. That one is a fantastic pairing with the Commando, though.



Hornet99 said:


> So, buy one now cause when that plane crashes into you these will be sought after?


Just say I was a solid dude after I'm gone, or I swear to Jehovah, I will haunt your days and nights.

And not like that scary, obviously we need to move out of this house type of haunting. Oh no, you're not getting off that easy.

I'm gonna be doing that watching lots of pay-per-view, adjusting your thermostat, and eating all the leftovers haunting. When I haunt a mofo, I go for the real pain points.

You'll rue the day you crossed me, Trebek.



Hornet99 said:


> I don't go out. I sit in darkened room gently caressing my watches, repeating "my precious....." over and over.......


Seems legit.


----------



## det55 (Apr 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> All that said - feel free to post a link, and I'll take a look. Maybe peeps will score a bargain before I can get the store to update its prices.


Something like this


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Latest episode of Doc's House Calls is a shorter episode, with an update on all that's been happening in the last few months.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

det55 said:


> Something like this
> View attachment 14588045


Those are correct prices.

Nacken Moderns are $675.

Nacken Vintage Blue is $650.

Different production costs = different retail prices.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Some days I wonder how the average WIS makes it out of the house without having a complete meltdown at all the imperfection in the world...


alcohol, nicotine and half a barrel coffee.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> alcohol, nicotine and half a barrel coffee.


I bet your bowel movements are fast and furious.


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

What would the minimum number be for something that hasn’t been made previously. Let’s say commando bezel and skipjack Dial/hands?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> What's on my mind for next year, you ask?
> 
> We're developing an updated versions of the Tropics.
> 
> ...


Music to my ears.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Ya Doc it's a cool looking watch IRL..I like it better than a few other Nth subs I've owned..yes it's quirky but cool...








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Senorzebra (Jun 8, 2019)

Hey Doc, out of curiosity, any more of the barracuda black vintage gilt coming in 2020?


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> The only straps I ever liked were these MILTAT zizz canvas, but even then gaps were an irritation......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've gotten a lot of enjoyment from the meraud tropic strap. I also really want to pick up a couple of mrsailcloth straps. Im not that fond of natos either.









Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Just say I was a solid dude after I'm gone, or I swear to Jehovah, I will haunt your days and nights.
> 
> And not like that scary, obviously we need to move out of this house type of haunting. Oh no, you're not getting off that easy.
> 
> ...


Cool, haunt me all you like. I'm sure we'd annoy you more. Well, just me asking random questions about bracelet thicknesses and sharp edges.....

......and random NTH shot










Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Mr_Finer_Things said:


> What would the minimum number be for something that hasn't been made previously. Let's say commando bezel and skipjack Dial/hands?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


100 pieces.

50 date. 50 no-date.

Unless we just did 50 without a date/no-date option, and made them all the same.

Not sure if this has been made clear, but I'm so not into doing product design by forum discussion. That's not how I roll. I'm not gonna get sucked into an endless game of what about this dial with those hands and that bezel.

If I come up with an idea, I'm willing to gamble that it'll sell well enough to make 100 dials and assemble 50 at a time. But I'm looking for designs that we can make repeatedly, beyond the first 100 pieces, not trying to get bogged down doing a lot of work for 50 pieces of some group's "unicorn". Just kill me now.

If someone else comes up with an idea, I'm not going to get stuck holding their hand doing the design. Let me know when the design is final, ready for production, with vector files, Pantone numbers, the full shebang. Then pay me in full, up front, non-refundable, for 50-100 pieces, and I'll make whatever you want. That's all I got time for.

Anything else is a conversation I'll be leaving faster than a gas station restroom.

Yes, I know, it sounds arrogant. It isn't. It's experience talking - bitter, painful experience. I've come to despise the "collaboration" involved in one-off projects. I've come to realize I don't have the patience to explain what I do and why to people who want me to do something different.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Was the Carolina collab that bad? Or was it the Catalina collab that cured you?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Senorzebra said:


> Hey Doc, out of curiosity, any more of the barracuda black vintage gilt coming in 2020?


I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

The Barracuda Vintage Black is still available, from several retailers around the world. I don't plan to make more of anything while there's still some of that thing available.

Want one? Get one while they're available. The last one to sell might be the last one ever. I don't know what I'm making or when beyond the 100 pieces we have coming in January, which are just two models that aren't currently available.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Was the Carolina collab that bad? Or was it the Catalina collab that cured you?


Let me put it this way - I've never been involved in any collaboration and not wanted to murder one or more of the other people involved at some point in the process, and let's leave it at that.

Actually, I'll leave it with this - on one project I was involved in, my stubborn insistence on doing things the right way not only caused the person who initiated the project to quit the project committee, he actually quit the venue, and disappeared.

There's a reason I don't work in corporate America any more.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
> 
> The Barracuda Vintage Black is still available, from several retailers around the world. I don't plan to make more of anything while there's still some of that thing available.
> 
> ...


What I want to know is how you ever manage to run a business posting so much on WUS.......

.......oh yeah, we're back to you never sleeping.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> What I want to know is how you ever manage to run a business posting so much on WUS.......
> 
> .......oh yeah, we're back to you never sleeping.


I was up working till 4am last night.

I post while eating breakfast, while pooping, and while watching TV.

Guess which this is...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I post while eating breakfast, while pooping, and while watching TV.
> 
> Guess which this is...


Hey, as long as it ain't all three at once.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I was up working till 4am last night.
> 
> I post while eating breakfast, while pooping, and while watching TV.
> 
> ...


Save time, poop, post and eat breakfast all at the same time.........

......5% efficiency saving right there, you're welcome.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Just to be difficult here is a shot of one of the super rare early edition subs that Chris made, back when he was doing MOQ of 10, not 100!

The stunning NTH Amphion vintage blue.......









Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> For this comparison I'm team NTH Subs all day for several reasons. (And I do have a Steinhart in the box so I'm not too biased.)
> 
> But the biggest reason is my preference for the Subs case shape and size. The Steinhart lugs aren't exactly known for their wrist-hugging ergonomics...
> 
> ...


The subs win on the almost perfect case but I do like the Steinhart crystals and the 3D of some of their bezels they both are great pieces


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Latest episode of Doc's House Calls is a shorter episode, with an update on all that's been happening in the last few months.


Good update and info. Thanks. Not the best of news, but it is what it is.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Omegafanboy said:


> Just to be difficult here is a shot of one of the super rare early edition subs that Chris made, back when he was doing MOQ of 10, not 100!
> 
> The stunning NTH Amphion vintage blue.......


Old iPhones take better pictures


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

.








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Forgot the lume shot








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Depending on how things shake out, I think we might conceivably make another run of DevilRays.


Stop the press. You've never seen a fat kid chase down an ice cream truck the way I'd be after a new DR.

Quick story: After wearing my turquoise around the office for months, one of my WIS coworkers suddenly shows up with a DevilFox. Dayum. I like his better than mine now, and he knows it. I put him onto NTH, and now he flaunts that $*** on a weekly basis just to torment me.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Some days I wonder how the average WIS makes it out of the house without having a complete meltdown at all the imperfection in the world...


Who says we don't? At work, I'm "that guy", the software engineer that makes a simple change to fix a bug, but then has to proceed to go through the entire file line by line and fix every comment typo, every indentation inconsistency, every little "coding standard" semantic detail. I regularly go into a file to change one line of code, and end up editing 100 more lines to fix things that don't impact the code's functioning. I get crap for it all the time.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Coriolanus said:


> Who says we don't? At work, I'm "that guy", the software engineer that makes a simple change to fix a bug, but then has to proceed to go through the entire file line by line and fix every comment typo, every indentation inconsistency, every little "coding standard" semantic detail. I regularly go into a file to change one line of code, and end up editing 100 more lines to fix things that don't impact the code's functioning. I get crap for it all the time.


.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> I was up working till 4am last night.
> 
> I post while eating breakfast, while pooping, and while watching TV.
> 
> ...


Hope you washed your hands after posting this one then! ...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> When I got the Amphion, I went on a strap swapping spree and there's plenty straps I didn't like on it. We all have our little vexing issues that make zero sense to others -- like, I have no issue with the Dreaded Triangles Of Space referenced above, and think it odd that anyone would. On my end, however, with thinner straps, I didn't like the amount of lug side-wall showing. Many are all, like, "Wut?!?" but for me, it kills off a lot of strap choices.
> 
> Went back to the bracelet for a while. But then I noticed I was wearing a lot of watches on bracelets and decided to give my EO MN strap a shot. Fits well and the red stripe on the black strap really matches the design of the Commando well. Haven't bothered going back to the stock bracelet yet, but I imagine its only a matter of time.
> 
> View attachment 14587929


What's interesting about the "dreaded triangles" is that basically all watches that don't have a bracelet, including the vast majority of dress watches, are supposed to look like that. I actually think fitted straps, either rubber or custom fitted leather straps, look weird and generally don't like them. I REALLY don't like the Rolex straps that have end links. I don't really mind lug sidewall, but I have to make sure that my straps are thick enough so that the lug doesn't stick out past the end of the strap if the watch has flat shaped lugs, and there's some distance between the lug hole and the end of the lug. On a bracelet that would never show, but with a thin strap, you can have the lugs sticking out like little lug horns past the strap, and that bugs me to no end.


----------



## sideways2 (Dec 1, 2016)

docvail said:


> What's on my mind for next year, you ask?
> 
> *I've got a couple other ideas I've been toying with, but haven't had time to develop.*


Dress?? Dressy?? Maybe?? I have patience :-!


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Then again, my seat-of-the-pants impression is that ecommerce sites as a group are all an imperfect solution (at best) to what brands need or want their sites to do, and the gap between user experience and site functionality seems to be growing wider as mobile device usage and social media use proliferate.


Nobody else has really picked this up, so I'll assume interest is low and avoid going into too much detail, but you've hit it right on the nose here.

Good e-commerce platforms are bad at brand. Good content platforms are bad at e-commerce. This is especially painful in semi-luxury where you're not just selling cookie-cutter widgets but online sales are still a vital revenue stream. The two sites solution is a pretty poor, but not uncommon approach.

The contradiction can be solved with a bespoke platform, which is how I pay my bills, but that comes at a level of investment (both time and money) that makes no sense before a business reaches big revenue and probably also has unusual needs driven by the operational side.

For what it's worth, if you'd come to us we would almost certainly have advised you to go away and use the same platform you chose on your own.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Rainy Halloween. Only one watch in my box for the job.



















Spooky zombie day lume:










Happy Halloween 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmnc said:


> Nobody else has really picked this up, so I'll assume interest is low and avoid going into too much detail, but you've hit it right on the nose here.
> 
> Good e-commerce platforms are bad at brand. Good content platforms are bad at e-commerce. This is especially painful in semi-luxury where you're not just selling cookie-cutter widgets but online sales are still a vital revenue stream. The two sites solution is a pretty poor, but not uncommon approach.
> 
> ...


Cheers. Completely agree with all that.

There's a recurring criticism (albeit, constructive) I get from people who are "experts" on branding and marketing, and who tell me that the website doesn't really convey everything I've told them about my brand and business.

I try to explain that it's difficult, if not impossible, to reduce all my forum and social media activity (all the stuff on which the brand is built) down to something that can be effectively conveyed via an ecommerce website, even a "best of breed" site, and also transmit the same "feel" you'd get interacting with me online or in person. That challenge is compounded by the fact I sell a product with an appeal communicated via imagery and numbers (specs vs prices), but the brand is mostly understood via words and actions.

Imagine me trying to get people to visit my website by updating its content and blasting out emails every day, instead of going online to interact with customers on social media, where they already spend their time.

Imagine if instead of posting pics of watches (the product we sell) to Instagram, I was posting screen shots of every email I exchange with Aaron and Rusty or my production team whilst working on a new design. That would show you the spirit and thinking that goes into the product, but I'm not going to CC the world on our emails.

So, as it is for many businesses, the website is just a place to buy the product, but the brand "lives" on social media. A lot of the brand following was built by online interaction, which isn't possible to effectively archive, index, and make instantly presentable, on demand, in a way that's always relevant for the user in an ecommerce environment.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

sideways2 said:


> Dress?? Dressy?? Maybe?? I have patience :-!


You'll need it, too.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Cheers. Completely agree with all that.
> 
> There's a recurring criticism (albeit, constructive) I get from people who are "experts" on branding and marketing, and who tell me that the website doesn't really convey everything I've told them about my brand and business.
> 
> ...


From the perspective of a buyer I've been on the NTH website and I actually like the look of it, simple and straightforward and I can see the product, nothing wrong from my perspective. Compared to some websites, where you have to hunt for the product or the e-shop or wade through a whole lot of guff about the ethos and spirit of the brand, its excellent!


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Cheers. Completely agree with all that.
> 
> There's a recurring criticism (albeit, constructive) I get from people who are "experts" on branding and marketing, and who tell me that the website doesn't really convey everything I've told them about my brand and business.
> 
> ...


In my experience the idea that you can communicate the same message through every channel is not just unrealistic but unwise.

It's often smarter to use each channel for what it's good for, work out which are effective for your business (and doable with your resources) and embrace the fact that customers will have multiple touch points, each with a different flavour.

I would be very surprised if any watch brand, let alone a micro, is really converting from cold on their website anyway. It's likely the end of the journey, not the whole of it.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmnc said:


> In my experience the idea that you can communicate the same message through every channel is not just unrealistic but unwise.
> 
> It's often smarter to use each channel for what it's good for, work out which are effective for your business (and doable with your resources) and embrace the fact that customers will have multiple touch points, each with a different flavour.
> 
> I would be very surprised if any watch brand, let alone a micro, is really converting from cold on their website anyway. It's likely the end of the journey, not the whole of it.


You could use this analysis on any form of e commerce. The website is no longer the first point of contact but more the middle to the end. It's a validator, not a lead generator.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

sideways2 said:


> Dress?? Dressy?? Maybe?? I have patience :-!


42mm sub?


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ryan850 said:


> You could use this analysis on any form of e commerce. The website is no longer the first point of contact but more the middle to the end. It's a validator, not a lead generator.


As soon as the purchase becomes remotely aspirational, yes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hornet99 said:


> From the perspective of a buyer I've been on the NTH website and I actually like the look of it, simple and straightforward and I can see the product, nothing wrong from my perspective. Compared to some websites, where you have to hunt for the product or the e-shop or wade through a whole lot of guff about the ethos and spirit of the brand, its excellent!


Oh, it works well for what it *needs* to do, but not well as what a business like mine would ideally *like* it to do.

Part of it too is the growing challenge of communicating with customers in an age when print and broadcast advertising are non-starters, more than half of all online usage is now on small screen mobile devices, and the online landscape is so fragmented.

How many forums does a brand owner need to be in? How many FB groups? Of course we have to be on Instagram. Do we have to be on Twitter? What about Pinterest? Reddit? Where does it end?

When I post a link to a new Doc's House Calls or to our blog in FB groups, I might post to 6-8 groups. Even cutting/pasting the same content, it's 10 minutes of work. Add IG, Twitter, Pinterest, Reddit, and if you're a member, 3-4 forums, just to make sure you're flooding the zone with your message, and it's an hour, not counting the time put into writing the blog post or recording/editing/uploading the video to YouTube, and not counting the time you'll then spend responding to people's comments on what you posted.

That's just posting content. That's not even real "engagement", of the sort that makes you seem like a part of the community, rather than just another guy spamming it.

When I talk to pre-launch startups about their plan for promotion of a new model, I ask them how they plan to promote it, and how much time they think it will take, versus how much time they have available. Everyone thinks it's going to be easier than it is, and can be done in very little time. It's literally - not figuratively - two hours per day, every day, for three months, to do it right, if you're doing it all yourself.

You can't do that with a website, unfortunately. There are tools to help streamline the work involved in posting to social media. There are bots that can distribute your content across multiple platforms, but I can't get a bot to come here and be me. I can't get a bot to respond and engage after the post. The bot can't create the content in the first place.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



dmnc said:


> In my experience the idea that you can communicate the same message through every channel is not just unrealistic but unwise.
> 
> It's often smarter to use each channel for what it's good for, work out which are effective for your business (and doable with your resources) and embrace the fact that customers will have multiple touch points, each with a different flavour.
> 
> I would be very surprised if any watch brand, let alone a micro, is really converting from cold on their website anyway. It's likely the end of the journey, not the whole of it.


Oh, absolutely.

I can't remember the last time I looked at Twitter. We post to Instagram 3 times per day. I think I've got fewer than 10 posts on Reddit. Obviously, I've spent a good bit of time on the forums.

You can't do on IG or Facebook what you do here. The tone is really the only thing you might be able to keep consistent.



ryan850 said:


> You could use this analysis on any form of e commerce. The website is no longer the first point of contact but more the middle to the end. It's a validator, not a lead generator.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Again, absolutely.

It may help if I added some context.

This started in 2014, when I thought we needed to do some advertising to help grow the business. The digital ad guys said the website kinda sucked when it came to communicating the brand "feel" that I thought it had if you knew it from the forums. They were right, of course, but of course their pitch was to fix that with advertising, which didn't work any better.

It comes full-circle now, in the context of Microbrand University, where we preach content, content, content, and engagement, engagement, engagement.

It's pretty simple - your website probably sucks for communicating brand. I think the NTH site is nice enough, and "gritty" enough to reflect *some* of the brand feel, but it's a static, two-dimensional, one-way transmission, so it's potential is limited. Advertising also sucks for communicating brand, unless you're investing heavily in it.

What does that leave you with? Social media? Okay. If the brand is you (and if you don't know it yet, trust me, it is), how do you communicate brand (which is you) with a picture of a watch on Instagram? How do you do it on Twitter? How do you do that on Facebook? On Reddit? On Forums? On YouTube?

It's a hard-to-swallow pill for a lot of brand owners, who think they can do it all with a website, paid ads, blog reviews, an email list, a FB business page, and Instagram. But all that ends up being mostly product-focused, not brand-focused.

What's left out is the down-in-the-trenches, hand-to-hand combat stuff, that can often lead to a bloody nose - direct engagement with enthusiasts online, our core customers, who form an opinion of the brand based on what they know (or in many cases, what they don't know) about the brand owner, as much as the brand's product.

No one likes risking a bloody nose, but the alternative is being a virtual unknown in a sea of mostly homogeneous alternatives.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Oh, it works well for what it *needs* to do, but not well as what a business like mine would ideally *like* it to do.
> 
> Part of it too is the growing challenge of communicating with customers in an age when print and broadcast advertising are non-starters, more than half of all online usage is now on small screen mobile devices, and the online landscape is so fragmented.
> 
> ...


I get it (now....) Doc. I came across you via WUS, not anywhere else. And let's be honest if you're on WUS and aren't aware of the "personality" known as Doc Vail then you're probably hiding under an Invicta shaped rock. But that's just me what about reaching all those others on different forums/media/etc. Sounds like a nightmare, you're welcome to it.......


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

I had a thought the other day regarding reddit.

I noticed that the r/watches sub forum regularly has people posting that they are "new to watches" and want some feedback on their first automatic.

I was thinking about it in relation to the question of how to reach a broader audience than just current WIS people.

It might be time cost beneficial to start engaging a little more on reddit.

Reddit has a big enough population that r/watches can be found by non watch people.

Just a thought. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ryan850 said:


> I had a thought the other day regarding reddit.
> 
> I noticed that the r/watches sub forum regularly has people posting that they are "new to watches" and want some feedback on their first automatic.
> 
> ...


Perhaps. I may not have posted there much, but I've read enough to get a sense for the place. It's basically the forums, with less moderation. I don't foresee my being able to maximize the potential value AND minimize the potential damage.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

My Halloween bad boy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Ike2 said:


> View attachment 14591843
> 
> My Halloween bad boy.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well done. Not to creep you out. But I thought about you earlier this evening. As I grabbed my Seiko Orange Monster, I thought to myself, "I wonder if that dude is rocking his blasted orange sub today."


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Mil6161 said:


> Taking the Tikuna for a test ride...I like it doc..fresh and diff design...very nice
> View attachment 14587905
> 
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


That looks really, really good on that chunky rubber strap! Is it from a Seiko? I'm having trouble remembering one with 20mm lug width and a strap like that.

Do you have the time set 12 hours off? Looks like the date is rolling in daylight.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

3WR said:


> Well done. Not to creep you out. But I thought about you earlier this evening. As I grabbed my Seiko Orange Monster, I thought to myself, "I wonder if that dude is rocking his blasted orange sub today."


Not creeped out. That's hilarious. Of course I did.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> That looks really, really good on that chunky rubber strap! Is it from a Seiko? I'm having trouble remembering one with 20mm lug width and a strap like that.
> 
> Do you have the time set 12 hours off? Looks like the date is rolling in daylight.


I don't even look at the date .lol...and I believe this is the prototype....the strap is a z20 from Seiko...the newer version...awesome comfy strap...

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Slowly becoming my favorite sub....and I don't know why








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

A question that is a little off topic although topical here. Is there such an animal as a black SS DLC Beads of Rice bracelet with a straight end? I've searched to no avail.

And back on topic... still waiting patiently for the release of the Nth BoR..

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

All this talk of dials rusting away, any chance that after they’re “retired” they’ll hit a special yard sale section of your (inadequately communicative of brand) website? I hear they look great in explorer cases!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Latest episode of Doc's House Calls is a shorter episode, with an update on all that's been happening in the last few months.


Dig that homage to old Rolex print ads in the background.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I've really been enjoying the Skipjack. Excellent for the office. Seems more serious, mature than my other subs. Without being boring at all.

Besides being useful, I think the date is a nice little piece of flare for the bottom of the dial. Plus, I like when the light catches the edge of the window and you can see the gloss finish.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Mil6161 said:


> Slowly becoming my favorite sub....and I don't know why
> View attachment 14594205
> 
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


I'm with you bud. It's just too damn cool!


tennesseean_87 said:


> All this talk of dials rusting away, any chance that after they're "retired" they'll hit a special yard sale section of your (inadequately communicative of brand) website? I hear they look great in explorer cases!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I like where you are going with this bro. Let's procure some dials!

Also, a couple pics from today. The Tikuna is effing awesome, and even got my dad's approval (he was wearing a Squale, and was amazed by how thin the sub was).









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> A question that is a little off topic although topical here. Is there such an animal as a black SS DLC Beads of Rice bracelet with a straight end? I've searched to no avail.
> 
> And back on topic... still waiting patiently for the release of the Nth BoR..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


I can't recall ever seeing such an animal.

BORs available soon.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

tennesseean_87 said:


> All this talk of dials rusting away, any chance that after they're "retired" they'll hit a special yard sale section of your (inadequately communicative of brand) website? I hear they look great in explorer cases!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Doubtful. I'm not in the parts business.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm.. A DLC BOR?
I'd be very hesitant to spring for such a thing... there's gonna be a LOT of wear and rubbing on those links, there's so many moving parts and so many touching/grinding surfaces. Even a DLC coating might not be able to withstand that for long.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

NTH nacken modern black again........










Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

aaaand more black näcken!









btw guys, since he has been mentioned here. Do you know something about twente(o) - guy from australia who had the biggest and best documented spring bar catalogue I have ever seen. his ebay site is down. 
Hope he is doing well!


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

Seikogi said:


> btw guys, since he has been mentioned here. Do you know something about twente(o) - guy from australia who had the biggest and best documented spring bar catalogue I have ever seen. his ebay site is down.
> Hope he is doing well!


That's not good news. I've purchased from him several times. A few months ago he cancelled my order with a note saying he was in the hospital and could not fulfill. A couple of weeks later I heard from him saying he is back in business so I reordered. Maybe same situation again.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

redzebra said:


> That's not good news. I've purchased from him several times. A few months ago he cancelled my order with a note saying he was in the hospital and could not fulfill. A couple of weeks later I heard from him saying he is back in business so I reordered. Maybe same situation again.


Me too, the only person to list all specs and a great guy to deal with. Hope he is well...


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> NTH nacken modern black again........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Näcken is such a beautiful watch. I have the Modern Blue no date, and today I once more realized how beautiful it is.

As for your picture, when I saw it I immediately stopped scrolling and my eyes deceived me so that the WR indication text on the dial looked red. How cool that would look


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

karmadrome said:


> The Näcken is such a beautiful watch. I have the Modern Blue no date, and today I once more realized how beautiful it is.
> 
> As for your picture, when I saw it I immediately stopped scrolling and my eyes deceived me so that the WR indication text on the dial looked red. How cool that would look


There's always little things that we'd like to change on watches, but good luck persuading Doc to change what he wants in his designs. If he'd listen to us he'd have probably never ended up making the very watch you love as it is......!


----------



## karmadrome (Sep 10, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> There's always little things that we'd like to change on watches, but good luck persuading Doc to change what he wants in his designs. If he'd listen to us he'd have probably never ended up making the very watch you love as it is......!


No intentions to pursuade Doc to anything. There's enough people on his tail already


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Red PeeKay said:


> A question that is a little off topic although topical here. Is there such an animal as a black SS DLC Beads of Rice bracelet with a straight end? I've searched to no avail.
> 
> And back on topic... still waiting patiently for the release of the Nth BoR..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Yes and Goodspeed is selling it with his latest KS offerings

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## foxzone (Jul 22, 2019)

Here is my Nacken modern blue with modded silver hands.


----------



## foxzone (Jul 22, 2019)

Sorry for double post


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Having sampled a few new and hot watches which have been top heavy and uncomfortable, I have a better appreciation of the sizing, the slimness and lightness of Doc's watches.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Doc has taken his show to the next level and is announcing the eagles game?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Doc has taken his show to the next level and is announcing the eagles game?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If that is doc (might be), maybe, but whoever he is, he looks well and truly blazed off his nut.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Doc has taken his show to the next level and is announcing the eagles game?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Didn't know Doc was bald and old......


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Doc has taken his show to the next level and is announcing the eagles game?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those were two of the worst game callers I've ever heard this side of Joe Buck and Chris Collnsworth.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Monday









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

Seikogi said:


> aaaand more black näcken!
> 
> View attachment 14596093
> 
> ...


I noticed that when I was looking for some more shoulderless spring bars this weekend. He's the only guy I order spring bars from. Hopefully all is well or will be.


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

.








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Those were two of the worst game callers I've ever heard this side of Joe Buck and Chris Collnsworth.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I once loathed Collinsworth, he's really grown on me though.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

kpjimmy said:


> Monday
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great strap, can you recall where you got it?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

BigEd said:


> Great strap, can you recall where you got it?


Crown and Buckle Chevron bro

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Gavinr (Dec 29, 2018)

Is anybody looking to part with their blue Nacken? It's the only really quality piece that I think will scratch my Pelagos itch ( that I can not afford to scratch!)
I was hoping to buy used. Unfortunately all of you NTH fanatics seem to hold on to yours........must be a good sign. 
If anybody gets bored with theirs please message me!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Gavinr said:


> Is anybody looking to part with their blue Nacken? It's the only really quality piece that I think will scratch my Pelagos itch ( that I can not afford to scratch!)
> I was hoping to buy used. Unfortunately all of you NTH fanatics seem to hold on to yours........must be a good sign.
> If anybody gets bored with theirs please message me!


Go here..........

https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-nth-modern-nacken-blue-5062327.html

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Gavinr said:


> Is anybody looking to part with their blue Nacken? It's the only really quality piece that I think will scratch my Pelagos itch ( that I can not afford to scratch!)
> I was hoping to buy used. Unfortunately all of you NTH fanatics seem to hold on to yours........must be a good sign.
> If anybody gets bored with theirs please message me!


WatchGauge still has a handful of pieces left of a few versions, FWIW - https://watchgauge.com/collections/nth.

Looks like some of our other retailers have some, too.

There is both a vintage blue and a modern blue available on eBay.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Next episode of Doc's House Calls is up.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> Next episode of Doc's House Calls is up.


Yeah, I'll pass on the skin cheese too...........


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Drat and double drat, Double Post Syndrome strikes again......

Best have a photo of an uber kewl watch then.......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Black no-date? Oh, yeah!


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

MikeyT said:


> Black no-date? Oh, yeah!


Have got his Blue Brother too, just to keep him company of course......

Luuuurve these watches......









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## WhiteWolf (Sep 11, 2017)

If anyone inside the US wants to sell their Barracuda Vintage Black w/ Date i'd be interested in buying. would prefer the date version but might consider no date as well.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Uh oh... look what just showed up in the mail from WatchGauge...


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Aaaagh, double post! Take this instead!


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

Ragl said:


> Have got his Blue Brother too, just to keep him company of course......
> 
> Luuuurve these watches......
> 
> ...


I also have the pair, they were my introduction to Chris's work.


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

I did something. The näcken was some kind of gateway drug. They happily coexist.

For those who are curious, the nöcken is bigger by one (1!) mm.










Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## Sonar (Sep 9, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I did something. The näcken was some kind of gateway drug. They happily coexist.
> 
> For those who are curious, the nöcken is bigger by one (1!) mm.
> 
> ...


Could you list the pro and cons of the BB compared to the NTH? (Leaving the price difference out of the equation)

Congrats with the BB! Grail stuff

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G955F met Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Sonar said:


> Could you list the pro and cons of the BB compared to the NTH? (Leaving the price difference out of the equation)
> 
> Congrats with the BB! Grail stuff
> 
> Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G955F met Tapatalk


Thanks!

I am not sure if this is the right thread to do such a comparison.

Naturally, there is the concept of cognitive dissonance, where you justify/vindicate an expensive purchase to yourself as being „worth it"...

And naturally, buying such a watch is a piece of lunacy.

But it's worth it. Trust me.  .

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I did something. The näcken was some kind of gateway drug. They happily coexist.
> 
> For those who are curious, the nöcken is bigger by one (1!) mm.
> 
> ...


1mm bigger, no extra charge.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Sonar said:


> Could you list the pro and cons of the BB compared to the NTH? (Leaving the price difference out of the equation)
> 
> Congrats with the BB! Grail stuff
> 
> Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G955F met Tapatalk


Bruh, he already told us.

1mm bigger.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I am not sure if this is the right thread to do such a comparison.


You should make a dedicated thread/review. It could be really interesting.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Sonar said:


> Could you list the pro and cons of the BB compared to the NTH? (Leaving the price difference out of the equation)
> 
> Congrats with the BB! Grail stuff
> 
> Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G955F met Tapatalk


Better comparison would be the NTH Barracuda black vintage. Watch that gives you better vfm than the Tudor and arguably looks better (IMHO).


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Better looking bezel and the price difference swings this one to be an easy winner over the Tudor....... 









Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Miyota 9015.

Official Chronometer.

"But, but, but, it's not Switz!"


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> You should make a dedicated thread/review. It could be really interesting.


No. This I cannot. First: my English reading comprehension is far better than my writing skills. And my writing skills suck, even in my native language. I work with my hands, not with my mind.



Hornet99 said:


> Better looking bezel ...


We should leave it at that.



docvail said:


> Miyota 9015.
> 
> Official Chronometer.
> 
> ...


Wow, this is pretty cool and should be known more widely. What a slap in the face for the whole cosc/„swissness" 

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> Wow, this is pretty cool and should be known more widely. What a slap in the face for the whole cosc/„swissness"


Ya think?









"The observatory testing regime typically lasted for 30 to 50 days and contained accuracy standards that were far more stringent and difficult than modern standards such as those set by COSC."

Bwahahahahahahahahahahah!

Suck it, Miyota haters...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Without an ounce of sarcasm intended...

Cognitive dissonance is real.

The BB58 is a nice watch. I've no issues if someone prefers it to the Barracuda, and I wouldn't harangue them to explain their reasons why.

What I've found is that if someone prefers the Barracuda (as I do, and would regardless of owning the brand), some people lose their minds. I had someone go ballistic on me on Facebook recently, because I wouldn't agree that one was objectively preferable in every way.

"How can you prefer the 'poor-man's' version to 'the real thing'?"

Because the Barracuda isn't simply a cheap Tudor clone. They're both "real" things, and different enough for people to prefer one or the other, for their own reasons.

I happen to prefer the Barracuda's case, bezel profile, bezel insert, dial, and bracelet. 

Costing 20% of what the Tudor costs is really immaterial, but it is a nice bonus.

If you like the Tudor better, so be it.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Without an ounce of sarcasm intended...
> 
> Cognitive dissonance is real.
> 
> ...


^^^This^^^.

Ok, yeah, Doc could be accused of "talking his own book" here. Of course he likes his watches. But I've had very similar thoughts since getting my Barracuda Blue. It's a great watch, and I've gone down the rabbit hole of "well, if I like this so much, why not get the Black Bay?"

But every time I think about it, I find myself getting hung up on the things I like more about the Barracuda. I've become a huge fan of PVD. It seems like once a week I bang this thing against a door jam, and I have yet to find a visible scratch on the bezel. I also like the lumed bezel and crown, the drilled lugs, the slimmer case profile, the beveling along the sides of the case, the blue dial/bezel as opposed to black/blue on the Tudor... (Also, 100m extra water resistance, but truth be told I don't really care about that.) I genuinely came to the conclusion that I'd be shelling out 5x to downgrade. The only reason for buying the Tudor would be for the brand name. Which, yes, is a thing to some folks, and that's fair.

All of the above is just my opinion. There are some people that prefer the BB, and they're not wrong. This is a fully subjective comparison. But Doc's right that there's enough that when you factor in all the differences, you get to a place where it's easier to just list what they have in common: Hands and indices. That's about it.


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

I wore the BB (Brown Bara) to pick up my BB58 recently.

And did so unapologetic, albeit a wee bit tounge in cheek.

Ill compare for you;

The bezel, crown and winding action of the 58, is like wiping your a$$ with silk. The NTH isnt.

The bracelet on the BB58 doesnt fit me well. The NTH does. 

One point each...


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Without an ounce of sarcasm intended...
> 
> Cognitive dissonance is real.
> 
> ...


This!

I am not that old but I feel like getting too old for this b$ on forums and I am not talking about watches only. (even some IT discussions)

There seems to be an established dogma, ideologies that are so deep into people that they are brainwashed into thinking that it cannot be different.

And the more time I spend reading, responding and arguing the more I feel like wasting time and not enjoying any of it. TBH apart from enjoying a few threads for entertainment like this one and the very view technical discussions or modding discussions mostly on the f10 (russian forum) or f17 its basically a repetition of people showing the same behaviour and resorting to the same phrases and believes in an infinite loop.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I tried on a BB58. Nice watch, and the bezel action is sublime, better than any NTH I've had.

But not 5x better. And the rest of the package... I like the NTH case -- size, proportions, and fit -- better. Bracelet... could go either way. Didn't live with the BB58, no idea if I'd prefer the movement IRL. All said and done, I'd probably have 2-3 NTH models and a few other watches besides, rather than what it would cost to buy into a Tudor.

Oh, and...

I had a Scorpene. I like Sinn watches. I don't like the size of the 857 or even the prior 657. So in that sense, the NTH was actually a better watch, in my world even if direct parallels could be drawn, where the designs are concerned. On paper, with all the Sinn tech that goes into it, I can see why many might consider the 857 a better watch, worth 3-4x the price of an NTH, but for my needs, taste, and choice, the Scorpene was better. 

Of course I'm now sporting a Seiko 5 SNK809/656 mod that I like better than a 556A, so maybe take what I say with a grain of salt...


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

RPDK said:


> I wore the BB (Brown Bara) to pick up my BB58 recently.
> 
> And did so unapologetic, albeit a wee bit tounge in cheek.
> 
> ...


I'll play, talking about the watch itself only

Since the pro's are usually the cons on the other watch I'll state just them

NTH
cons:
movement finish not as great as on Tudor although I have not taken both of them apart
lower OOTB accuracy? (don't know the specs)
dial indices fit not as precise
f&f and clasp design not as good as BB58 (although I only have the old nth clasp to judge and currently use the 5 digit sub clasp and bracelet)
maybe worse case finish (not sure unless someone has high magnification images to prove, since I cant find anything wrong with a x12 loupe on the NTH)
bracelet endlink is not machined, would have also preferred them to be recessed
text on caseback, would have preferred it completely empty as on Rolex

BB 58
cons:
aluminium bezel
lume pip sticks out - do not like it
no lume on bezel indices and printed instead of engraved as on NTH

female endlink bracelet not to my liking
not a fan of riveted style bracelets

hands do not sit flush with markers when passing by
dial text - NTH combines logo and brand name - Tudor does not
uneven font spacing on the lower dial text
too much text on the dial

case is thicker
case sides do not curve enough towards the lugs, too thick in comparison to bezel
no drilled lugs
radial case brushing instead of straight looks weird with linearly brushed bracelet
proprietary tool needed to remove caseback
text on caseback

higher movement service cost
cannot replace movement/service myself due to part availability

only one variation available, NTH subs come in all sorts of stylings

Pretty sure I have missed a few points and its already late in Europe but it was an interesting topic to me before I bought the NTH.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RPDK said:


> I wore the BB (Brown Bara) to pick up my BB58 recently.
> 
> And did so unapologetic, albeit a wee bit tounge in cheek.
> 
> ...


I think I speak for everyone here when I say that in order to give your comment credence, we'll need to see evidence you've actually wiped your a$$ with silk.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)




----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

I typed an answer, quoting some of the above posts. Then erased it all again. Why? It's pointless. Sitting down with every single one of you by a beer, we could talk it all through and have a laugh at the end of it. Here in this place with everyone chiming in and turning my words around, I suspect it would end in deep misunderstandings.

Mind you all, I wasn't showing that picture because I wanted to show what I was preferring. I wanted to show, these two watches can coexist in my collection no problem.

Plus: cognitive dissonance can work both ways, you know 

Well, just because I like to take pictures and everyone likes to see pictures of watches:



















Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Eww. Doesn’t silk just smear?


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

Tanjecterly said:


> Eww. Doesn't silk just smear?


And it's kind of cold, isn't it?

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I thought your post was fine, Tarak, and not something that spawned any argument. We're just chatting up watches. It's hard not to compare a Barracuda to the BB58; they're very similar at least superficially in appearance.

Nothing wrong with some thoughtful discussion of the two pieces.

For me? I love my Nacken. But I'm not going to lie- I still want a Tudor. I can't give you a rational answer why exactly, other than to say that I want that Tudor logo staring at me on the dial.

The Nacken can stay in the rotation, but it hasn't made me want a Tudor less. Both can coexist in my watch box.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

I also started to post a list of pros and cons, and deleted it. Then I went and did something else constructive while I reconsidered the subject. Here's what I concluded:

WIS are fond of making comparisons and turning them into competitions. No insult intended here, it's a common byproduct of this forum and these threads tend to draw it out. Mainly because many of us (if not all) are constantly making comparisons to help us with purchase decisions. So, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

BUT, there isn't really a winner. If I told you to name the best airplane ever invented, but gave you no criteria for your judgement, there would be answers consisting of the fastest and largest and most beautiful. And then I could tell you it had to land on a 400' grass strip, because the owner is a bush pilot, and none of the previously chosen "winners' would qualify.

And so, it's a little useless to try and derive a "winner" between the NTH and the Tudor. For me the Tudor is too thick and too expensive. That DOES NOT mean that it's not a spectacular watch, because it is. But in my own collection there resides a quartz Momentum Atlas that is one of my favorite watches. I doubt it would win any contests, but it's thin and reliable and bulletproof. And I got it for less than $100USD. Boom. It's my "grass strip" watch. 

For me, thin is everything. I wear "thin" all day. I may only set and wind a watch every four or five days, so crown action doesn't move a watch up higher on my own personal list. Lume is right behind, as I'm usually working at 3am while others sleep. Good lume is valuable to me.

And the NTHs are thin and have great lume, and mine have 12-hour bezels, so they win my own contest. But someday I might decide that Tudor GMT isn't as thick as I used to think....

And I wouldn't think less of someone for choosing one.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> This!
> 
> I am not that old but I feel like getting too old for this b$ on forums and I am not talking about watches only. (even some IT discussions)
> 
> ...


I just wanted to quote this because F10 is all that is right on the internet. Thats why I'm here and where I started my journey. Super helpful folks, no question is too dumb from a noob and a VAST amount of knowledge willing to be shared. F71 is close and has more entertainment value, but I don't dare venture out of those two subs.

And an NTH to keep this ish on topic.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I typed an answer, quoting some of the above posts. Then erased it all again. Why? It's pointless. Sitting down with every single one of you by a beer, we could talk it all through and have a laugh at the end of it. Here in this place with everyone chiming in and turning my words around, I suspect it would end in deep misunderstandings.
> 
> Mind you all, I wasn't showing that picture because I wanted to show what I was preferring. I wanted to show, these two watches can coexist in my collection no problem.
> 
> ...


Well... deal is that some prefer a Tudor (or.a Sinn, or whatevs) to an NTH, or even *gasp* along with. No worries.

Try this: post the same thing in the Tudor/Rolex thread and extol the virtues of your NTH, and see how it goes...

FWIW, that Näcken Blue doesn't do it for me, either...


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I did something. The näcken was some kind of gateway drug. They happily coexist.
> 
> For those who are curious, the nöcken is bigger by one (1!) mm.
> 
> ...


I get it bud. Sometimes the real deal is just more awesome to you for no justifiable reason. I have fully been a victim of this, and it is in no way a bad thing. There are subtleties that will make the more expensive watch worth it to you, which is all that really matters.

I am guilty of it just as bad(or good IMO). I really wanted a GS snowflake. I saw the SARX that resembled it, and then Seiko came out with the SJE073. The SJE is stupid expensive, looks exactly like the SARX, is NOT titanium like the SARX and GS, but it just spoke to me. And I tell you, now that I have the real deal snowflake, the SJE is just as damn cool. I don't need to justify how I feel about it to anyone other than myself(and maybe my wife, but hey, it's a Seiko so it's cheap in her mind).

I think its really cool you own both. Now you can preserve the Tudor by wearing the NTH In its place when doing things you may not wear the Tudor all while not sacrificing style. Best of both worlds.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I typed an answer, quoting some of the above posts. Then erased it all again. Why? It's pointless. Sitting down with every single one of you by a beer, we could talk it all through and have a laugh at the end of it. Here in this place with everyone chiming in and turning my words around, I suspect it would end in deep misunderstandings.
> 
> Mind you all, I wasn't showing that picture because I wanted to show what I was preferring. I wanted to show, these two watches can coexist in my collection no problem.
> 
> ...


Sorry if it seemed like a debate, my friend. It isn't. I'm happy for you that you're happy with the Tudor. Sincerely, I am. I meant it when I said they make a nice watch. I know it is.

My point was that any of us might be happier with either, for valid reasons, and as such, I don't see the point in making comparisons, especially when that always seems to attract snobbery and create divisions. Why can't any of us like either? Why do some folks only accept another's opinion when it conforms to their own?

I want everyone to just enjoy what they have, and let others do the same. It's a shame that some feel compelled to berate others for how they choose to spend their money. It's my view that the Tudor is a fine choice if it's the one you prefer, no more or less valid a choice than the Barracuda for those who prefer it. Neither needs an explanation or a defense.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Yep. I wear my Nacken surfing all the time, and I'd be pretty bummed if I lost a $600 watch to the bottom.

But I'd be even MORE bummed if I lost a $3600 watch. Honestly, as much as I want to own a Tudor at some point, I'm just not sure where it fits in my life at the moment. I'm not buying a watch I can only wear on "special occasions" or other such stuff. I don't have enough of those in my life to make the cost/benefit worth it.

Break

Jonez, everyone knows the coolest jet ever made is the F-4 Phantom. Any other suggestion is just crazy talk, and any excuses like 400' strips are just the booze talking.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

a bor-ed barracuda.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Maybe this clarifies, maybe not...

Knowing someone prefers a Squale, a Steinhart, a Tissell, an MKII, a Ginault...none of those preferences changes my opinion of the person. We like what we like, for various reasons, some logical, some not so much. 

I don't believe in letting my feelings about a watch, or even the business / people which make it, affect my opinion about a person who likes it. Someone preferring a Tudor is no different than someone preferring a Squale.

My point was that, unfortunately, not everyone feels the same way, especially when "luxury" and "heritage" get injected into it, and money, sometimes lots of it. 

No exaggeration, I've seen people act viciously towards others, because of some bizarre, misplaced loyalty to a brand run by a person or people who will never know the name of the person or people waging war on their behalf. As much time as I've spent online, even I don't know the names of all the people I see supporting NTH. 

I'd never taunt someone for preferring one watch over another, for any reason. Yet I've seen people who can't NOT taunt someone for daring to wear a watch which bears some resemblance to some other (often more expensive) watch. 

Honestly, sincerely, to me, owning/enjoying/preferring an NTH, or a Tudor, are equally valid positions. 

I don't mind seeing them compared, hopefully objectively. It just seems to me that such comparisons inevitably rile people up, because someone inevitably feels compelled to have a "winner", and all too often, those guys will throw their toys out the pram if anyone disagrees with them about which is declared victorious.

One of my favorite demonstrations of unity within this hobby was at our local GTG, a few years back. F2 regular Gary123 drove up with some guys from DC. Gary's collection is insane, easily worth over $100k. He walks in with his huge pelican case (all the more cartoonish because Gary's like 5'3", 130 pounds), drops it on a table, pops it open, and starts to mingle. 

The guy next to him had a small watch roll with a few Seiko 5's. I looked over at one point to see them talking, and getting along, Gary showing as much interest in the other guy's small collection of very affordable Seikos as the guy was showing in Gary's menagerie of horological exotica. 

*THAT* is how people who share a hobby are supposed to treat each other. The guys who have to throw $hlt like chimps at the zoo are just a bunch of d1cks.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

RPDK said:


> Ill compare for you;
> 
> The bezel, crown and winding action of the 58, is like wiping your a$$ with silk. The NTH isnt.


Damn....now I won't be able not to think about wiping my a$$ with silk when I wind my BB36. But Tudor's crown is really that good indeed.

Anyway, my black Scorpéne without date is due for delivery today. Will post pics after I pick it up.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Toonces said:


> Yep. I wear my Nacken surfing all the time, and I'd be pretty bummed if I lost a $600 watch to the bottom.
> 
> But I'd be even MORE bummed if I lost a $3600 watch. Honestly, as much as I want to own a Tudor at some point, I'm just not sure where it fits in my life at the moment. I'm not buying a watch I can only wear on "special occasions" or other such stuff. I don't have enough of those in my life to make the cost/benefit worth it.
> 
> ...


The F-4 Phantom was the first Muscle Jet, and shall always be living proof that if you put big enough motors on anything, it will break the sound barrier. And flying the Eagle was like the Phantom on steroids. But this is still cool:


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

dmjonez said:


> The F-4 Phantom was the first Muscle Jet, and shall always be living proof that if you put big enough motors on anything, it will break the sound barrier. And flying the Eagle was like the Phantom on steroids. But this is still cool:


When I was a kid, I was a huge fan of both the Phantom and the Eagle. It's hard not to love anything with a thrust:weight ration > 1.

That said, we should be clear about something: The A-10 is the coolest plane ever made. I mean, c'mon. It's a gun with wings... and the wings are almost optional. People say that the A-10 is equipped with a GAU-8 Avenger 30mm cannon. What they really mean is that the GAU-8 comes equipped with an A-10.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That video was insane!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

One of the first Revell models I built as a youngster was not a car, but an F-4 Phantom. Flew that thing everywhere.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I don't know if I'd feel safe saying this outside of this thread, but here goes:

I don't get the love of expensive G-Shocks.

Don't misunderstand, I do love my G. I have a super base model $50 solar beater that has lasted forever in just horrendous abuse. And I'm mildly interested in the dive versions, and those with tide gauges because they're specifically useful for things I do.

But beyond that...I just don't understand the attraction. I mean, I don't see anything inherently aesthetically pleasing, and if it doesn't have some specific function I need I don't see why I'd need more than one, or "limited editions."

I fully realize that everything I just said could be equally applied to my non-G Shock diver collection...but, well, there it is.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Tarak Trisaltuol said:


> I did something. The näcken was some kind of gateway drug. They happily coexist.
> 
> For those who are curious, the nöcken is bigger by one (1!) mm.
> 
> ...


Missed the lively convo but awesome pairing 

I considered doing the same but ended up with this combo for some of the reasons discussed.

Still muh fav sub:










My first ever automatic watch (recently bought another one since I let the original one go long ago), and BB58 inspired:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> One of the first Revell models I built as a youngster was not a car, but an F-4 Phantom. Flew that thing everywhere.


I built so many F-4 models at a kid that I didn't need directions anymore for new kits.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Toonces said:


> I don't know if I'd feel safe saying this outside of this thread, but here goes:
> 
> I don't get the love of expensive G-Shocks.
> 
> ...


The barometer/barograph on the Rangeman is extremely useful and a real time saver for an officer of the deck of any ship. The weather has to be logged every hour and there is only one barograph on the bridge. The Rangeman can be calibrated as an accurate and reliable repeater.



The barograph is useful to anyone paying attention to the local weather.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Coriolanus said:


> Uh oh... look what just showed up in the mail from WatchGauge...
> 
> View attachment 14607189


Hey Doc. Will this be available through your site? I've been watching... still nada. Alternatively will the Kiwis be stocking it downunder? TIA.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Maybe this clarifies, maybe not...
> 
> Knowing someone prefers a Squale, a Steinhart, a Tissell, an MKII, a Ginault...none of those preferences changes my opinion of the person. We like what we like, for various reasons, some logical, some not so much.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree with this any more. Watch guys are like car guys. Some are die hard for their brand and some can find something really cool from all brands. I am the same for both. I just love cars and watches, at all price points.

I recently complimented a customers Casio MDV106. He sheepishly replied that it was just a cheap watch, but I explained to him how I think it is one of the best values out there, and dollar for dollar, there is no competition. It is highly regarded by the knowing watch community, and was a great choice. It is an excellent watch, and I would highly recommend it to anyone looking for a diver to take on anything. By the end, I could see he felt good about his watch, and he should!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Got distracted by discussion and forgot pics!









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tarak Trisaltuol (Jul 8, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...We like what we like, for various reasons, some logical, some not so much.
> 
> I'd never taunt someone for preferring one watch over another, for any reason. Yet I've seen people who can't NOT taunt someone for daring to wear a watch which bears some resemblance to some other (often more expensive) watch.
> 
> ...


There. There are the things I should have said before.

What I Honestly think has more weight than which watch I prefer, is the picture and statement that Doc posted far above and got a little lost during the discussion:

The COSC/Lundis bleues Miyota thing. THAT IS A THING.

Typed by throwing coconuts randomly at my keyboard.

More watches? @brrrzkrrz on ig.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Red PeeKay said:


> Hey Doc. Will this be available through your site? I've been watching... still nada. Alternatively will the Kiwis be stocking it downunder? TIA.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Working on it.

Been insanely busy recently.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I don't know if I'd feel safe saying this outside of this thread, but here goes:
> 
> I don't get the love of expensive G-Shocks.
> 
> ...


Personally, I'm not into them, though I do think some are cool, in an over the top, needlessly complex sort of way.

I know Keil absolutely kills it with them, and the more expensive the model, the more he kills it. Apparently Bordell at Page & Cooper is seeing the same thing.

You know those BSHT guys? How they're a bit mod-crazy? There are G-shock guys who are just as devoted to the G as the BSHT guys are to the Sub.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> The F-4 Phantom was the first Muscle Jet, and shall always be living proof that if you put big enough motors on anything, it will break the sound barrier. And flying the Eagle was like the Phantom on steroids. But this is still cool:


Fun fact, in the early '70s, some Israeli F-4s tried to go after a MiG-25 Foxbat coming from Egypt. The MiG hit the gas and walked away from them at Mach 3 like an Aventador SVJ walking away from a Mustang. Nobody in the west really knew what the Foxbat could do at the time, and it seemed like it vastly outclassed anything in the west. The F-15 was a response to what the assumed capabilities of the MiG-25 were. When a pilot defected and took one to Japan later in the decade, it was discovered what the Foxbat really was - basically a truck that was capable of flying extremely fast and extremely high, and not all that much else. Still, it looked damn cool doing it.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Coriolanus said:


> When I was a kid, I was a huge fan of both the Phantom and the Eagle. It's hard not to love anything with a thrust:weight ration > 1.
> 
> That said, we should be clear about something: The A-10 is the coolest plane ever made. I mean, c'mon. It's a gun with wings... and the wings are almost optional. People say that the A-10 is equipped with a GAU-8 Avenger 30mm cannon. What they really mean is that the GAU-8 comes equipped with an A-10.


Gotta love the tank buster. The gun was so big that the front wheel is offset to the side to make room for it.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Toonces said:


> Yep. I wear my Nacken surfing all the time, and I'd be pretty bummed if I lost a $600 watch to the bottom.
> 
> But I'd be even MORE bummed if I lost a $3600 watch. Honestly, as much as I want to own a Tudor at some point, I'm just not sure where it fits in my life at the moment. I'm not buying a watch I can only wear on "special occasions" or other such stuff. I don't have enough of those in my life to make the cost/benefit worth it.
> 
> ...


Harrier jump jet, would kick the phantom and could land on a 40' grass strip........


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Sorry for going back to the Tudor vs NTH discussion, but the big thing for me is the value aspect. I just wasn't comfortable (from a loss/damage aspect and the personal ethics*) wearing that much money on my wrist.


* - just from a personal background thing of the values I grew up with.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I like all mechanical watches regardless of price. I have a nearly $2K (list) Oris, and an SKX that I love modding the hell out of. I enjoy them equally. I don't really see the point of watch snobbery. I think Pateks and Vacherons and Langes are amazing to be sure, but I'm equally interested in what guys like Doc and Sergio Direnzo have coming down the pike. All that really matters to me is: does the watch look cool, and do I like wearing it? My SDGC009 may not have the prestige of a DateJust, but given the option of the two I know what I'd want to wear, and it wouldn't be the Rolex. Also, despite the fact that it's "just a Seiko," my 009 is #105/500, which is its own exclusivity. There's a hell of a lot more than 500 DJs out there. Here it is with SDGC017 #118.


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

I'll present you all with todays first world problem: 

No one knows what the hell a Tudor is, and that it may present a certain value. 

Would I pay Rolex money for a BB58 with a Rolex label, most likely not. But what is the point of paying Brand name tax, if no one knows the brand? .


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

Davekaye90 said:


> Gotta love the tank buster. The gun was so big that the front wheel is offset to the side to make room for it.


I was stationed in South Korea in the mid 80's, mostly at Osan AB. During an exercise they launched 54 F-4's in a row, that was awesome to watch. Or watching F-15's stand on their tail shortly after takeoff and blast straight up like a rocket. While there I went TDY for a month to a strafing/bombing range on the coast where I was able to watch A-10's and F-16's make runs, fairly close up. Not much compares to watching an A-10 on a strafing run. Cool .... for sure.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

John at Watch Gauge just posted to FB about only being able get 6 Ti G-Shocks, 3 plain, 3 camouflage. Guessing the sell out in a day.

When I got back into watches, nostalgia for a G-Shock of my youth led me to find another 5600. Hey, they're still cheap!... waitaminute, I don't remember a screw-on back... oh, there's the one I had with the screw-down case back... and it's how much?!? Yikes.

People like what they like. I even know people who are way into sub-style watches...

I grew up on air bases through the 70s. In the mid-70s, dad was stationed at Edwards AFB, where I got to see stuff like the rollout of the B-1, the X-15 up close, and the SR-71 at a distance. Eventually, we ended up at Aviano in Italy, where there was a bunch of f-4s, and, sorry, but they are among the least elegant jets out there. Just sayin'.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



wtma said:


> Damn....now I won't be able not to think about wiping my a$$ with silk when I wind my BB36. But Tudor's crown is really that good indeed.
> 
> Anyway, my black Scorpéne without date is due for delivery today. Will post pics after I pick it up.


So here it is, my most wanted NTH Sub. And yes I like the Scorpéne better than Sinn 857. Better case size and (way) better dial layout proportion, imo.









With another favorite of mine...


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Enjoying this one so much at the moment......










Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

My wife's idea of hell is where they only talk about jets and watches! I can't show her this thread...

Seriously, I like almost the entire range of both. My taste in watches runs from the Atlas all the way to Rolex, with admired pieces ALL along the range. Same with aircraft, my love for them spans from the Piper Cub, through most every fighter, and into the modern jumbos. I retired from fighters a few years ago (or I should say: they made me retire, much like athletes), but I have three more years to go on the wide-bodies. Last check-ride I took, the examiner looked at my type-ratings and asked, "what are you trying to do, collect the whole set?"

Bonus pic of part of airplane and me wearing a watch. A looooong time ago.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Coriolanus said:


> When I was a kid, I was a huge fan of both the Phantom and the Eagle. It's hard not to love anything with a thrust:weight ration > 1.
> 
> That said, we should be clear about something: The A-10 is the coolest plane ever made. I mean, c'mon. It's a gun with wings... and the wings are almost optional. People say that the A-10 is equipped with a GAU-8 Avenger 30mm cannon. What they really mean is that the GAU-8 comes equipped with an A-10.


+1. Big A-10 homer. Final assembly and flight testing in my home town. My home was just on the edge of one leg of the approach, so years of Thunderbolt/Warthog flyovers. As a child of the 50's and 60's I was always enamored with delta wing planes, F-102 Delta Dagger, F-106 Delta Dart, and B-58 Hustler.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

RmacMD said:


> +1. Big A-10 homer. Final assembly and flight testing in my home town. My home was just on the edge of one leg of the approach, so years of Thunderbolt/Warthog flyovers. As a child of the 50's and 60's I was always enamored with delta wing planes, F-102 Delta Dagger, F-106 Delta Dart, and B-58 Hustler.


The A-10 is the G-Shock of aircraft...

The Army's favorite jet. If you Google "Brrrrrt" you get some great videos.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> *THAT* is how people who share a hobby are supposed to treat each other. The guys who have to throw $hlt like chimps at the zoo are just a bunch of d1cks.


Amen, brother. Guy sat down next to me at the recent Boston GTG with two models of Devon Tread watches and a Ressence Type 3. Any one of them are probably more than I will will spend on watches, total, in my lifetime. Another attendee was wearing a ALS No. 1 and had an FPJourne annual calendar, besides. In between those two were two of us with very much more *ahem* modest collections. But everyone was happy, mingling and talking watches, zero snobbery.

Not my watch...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Apropos of almost nothing, I think I'm starting to love the Tudor PO1. I can't tell if it's the design or the fact so many WISsnobs seem to hate it.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RPDK said:


> I'll present you all with todays first world problem:
> 
> No one knows what the hell a Tudor is, and that it may present a certain value.
> 
> Would I pay Rolex money for a BB58 with a Rolex label, most likely not. But what is the point of paying Brand name tax, if no one knows the brand? .


I don't think everyone who buys a Tudor is buying it because of the luxury label. I have no doubt some really like the watch enough to buy it, without regard for anyone's future reaction to it.

But just as there are those who make brand-name purchases in the course of conspicuous consumption, I am certain many watch purchases are the result of time spent in this online echo chamber, which clearly creates artificial demand.

It's not about "Tudor", specifically. It's about the need to fill an internal void or compensate for a sense of personal inadequacy by making a crowd-approved purchase, like school kids peacocking with the latest in name-brand clothes.

Buying a brand name watch in the hopes it will be noticed is like a 14 year old buying Air Jordans thinking they'll make him popular. The online put-downs of others' watches is no different than kids teasing another for his no-name sneakers. It's a tell-tale sign of a fragile ego. No one secure in their own identity would bother to ridicule someone else for what they buy or wear.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



wtma said:


> So here it is, my most wanted NTH Sub. And yes I like the Scorpéne better than Sinn 857. Better case size and (way) better dial layout proportion, imo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Glad you like it. It's one of my personal faves, as well.

Funny you like the dial layout better than the Sinn. When we revealed that design, some of the most vehement criticism we got was that the dial was too crowded, specifically compared to the Sinn.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I remember getting flack about a number of things in the lead-up to launching NTH. It's fun to now see people praising those very same things.

Anyway... I like the Sinn, too. I'd understand if someone said they like it better than the Scorpène. Either way, I'm glad we made it the way we did.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## dg8dg7 (Jul 28, 2019)

docvail said:


> Apropos of almost nothing, I think I'm starting to love the Tudor PO1. I can't tell if it's the design or the fact so many WISsnobs seem to hate it.
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I love the risk they took with the P01. It was refreshing to see something other than another bezel option of a standard black faced sub (nothing wrong with that, I love them). Made me excited about a baselworld for once, vs the eye roll of disappointment haha. I thought the look was jarring, and not to my taste but I appreciated the heritage and originality to the point of considering it. But I only wish it were smaller lug to lug. I tried it on at the AD and thought it looked comically large on my 7" wrist. If it fit me like it would on a 8" wrist, I would absolutely buy it. I need the 58 version of it to come out for me!

Sent from my LG-H933 using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I don't think everyone who buys a Tudor is buying it because of the luxury label. I have no doubt some really like the watch enough to buy it, without regard for anyone's future reaction to it.


Just for the sake of discussion, while we wait for the next NTH sub release...

I don't recall having ever heard of Tudor before I started frequenting WUS. Honestly, watches weren't on my list of "important things to consider", and were more likely on my list of "boring stuff I need to own to get through the day." Stuff like plates and pants and socks.

Thinking back, I'd suggest my limited knowledge of watches consisted of "jewelry store brands" such as Rolex, Breiting, Tag Heuer, and Omega. And "department store brands" like Seiko, Citizen, Casio, and Timex. I'd probably heard of older brands like Elgin, Longines, and Hamilton but did't give them much thought.

Point to all this: I'd bet the modern public at large is closer to my original position than WUS. There might be more emphasis on designer brands (Gucci, etc) and highly advertised stuff (MVMT, Daniel Wellington) but I doubt that wearing a Tudor is likely to gain one much status in most circles other than WUS. Neither is a microbrand. I used to own a Steinhart (very nice watch, btw) but finally decided I didn't like the repeated queries about my "Rolex". That's just my own bias, and no criticism directed towards the Steinhart. It might be one of the nicest watches I've ever owned for the money invested. But the public's recognition of most brands is pretty limited.

Anyway, the "status gained" for wearing a Tudor might not be as considerable as some think, and there might be more from the public-at-large for wearing a Tag (which ironically, isn't as highly regarded here).

That being the case, I'd revert back to the "buy what you like and wear what YOU want", not what others value...


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Glad you like it. It's one of my personal faves, as well.
> 
> Funny you like the dial layout better than the Sinn. When we revealed that design, some of the most vehement criticism we got was that the dial was too crowded, specifically compared to the Sinn.
> 
> ...


And no mention of the Spork, which I lusted for for quite a while. :-d


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Initially, I liked the PO1 -- 12hr stainless bezel, crown at 4, date window. But the 42mm size and resulting L2L... nah. Not to mention price. If it was 39 or 40mm, I'd be lusting after it. As it is, I know it won't fit me right. But for anyone who posted, "What will be a future classic?", I was pointing to the PO1. Chances are, it will be an oddity, produced for a short time, and then relegated to dead-end design path glory or infamy, and much sought after as a very limited release by future collectors. 

When the Amphion Commando was announced, I didn't even make the connection, but knew I wanted the new Amphion. To the point that I sold my Scorpene to get one. Doc says it was influenced by the P01, but I dunno -- not like NTH doesn't have snowflake hands kicking around at their factory which would have been more true to the PO1 than the Amphion milsub hands, and instead of a pure 12hr bezel, Doc went with 12hr/countdown combo. I wondered about the "Commando" name, but just reviewing a Hodinkee article about the P01, I come across this: 'The "Commando" program, as Tudor code-named it...' Ah.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Initially, I liked the PO1 -- 12hr stainless bezel, crown at 4, date window. But the 42mm size and resulting L2L... nah. Not to mention price. If it was 39 or 40mm, I'd be lusting after it. As it is, I know it won't fit me right. But for anyone who posted, "What will be a future classic?", I was pointing to the PO1. Chances are, it will be an oddity, produced for a short time, and then relegated to dead-end design path glory or infamy, and much sought after as a very limited release by future collectors.
> 
> When the Amphion Commando was announced, I didn't even make the connection, but knew I wanted the new Amphion. To the point that I sold my Scorpene to get one. Doc says it was influenced by the P01, but I dunno -- not like NTH doesn't have snowflake hands kicking around at their factory which would have been more true to the PO1 than the Amphion milsub hands, and instead of a pure 12hr bezel, Doc went with 12hr/countdown combo. I wondered about the "Commando" name, but just reviewing a Hodinkee article about the P01, I come across this: 'The "Commando" program, as Tudor code-named it...' Ah.


Re - heritage -

If I understood the P01 story, the original watch was never actually mass produced. My understanding was that it was a prototype of a military issue model, but it wasn't green-lighted.

I get paying homage to some iconic model by doing a re-issue, but the P01 story seems to be celebrating the fact Tudor did *NOT* land a military contract.

I don't know if we should laugh with them or at them.

Re - Commando -

I think Commando is essentially a generic term for any airborne soldier.

If I noted the "project Commando" aspect of the Tudor story, I honestly don't remember. It's as likely, if not more likely I just called it that because the bezel makes it a "Mission Timer", whatever that means, and I sometimes get nostalgic for my Army days.

I know that as a former somewhat high-speed soldier, I'm supposed to be really into the tacticool thing, but I just never was. Ugly is ugly, no matter how tactical something is.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hairy (Dec 16, 2011)

F-15 ACTIVE, my favorite version. Other than a trade study bird with two F119s. That one was a screamer.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> If I noted the "project Commando" aspect of the Tudor story, I honestly don't remember.


I don't remember you doing so.

I do remember when someone asked where you got inspiration for the Tikuna, Amphion Commando, and Vanguard, you mentioned the P01 as inspiration for the Commado. It wasn't until I read the Hodinkee article again, just today, that I found out it was the code name given to the original prototype project by Tudor, back in the day. Go figure.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Re - Commando -
> 
> I think Commando is essentially a generic term for any airborne soldier.


Well, technically, "Commando" is a generic term for not wearing underwear.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I don't remember you doing so.
> 
> I do remember when someone asked where you got inspiration for the Tikuna, Amphion Commando, and Vanguard, you mentioned the P01 as inspiration for the Commado. It wasn't until I read the Hodinkee article again, just today, that I found out it was the code name given to the original prototype project by Tudor, back in the day. Go figure.


Sometimes, things just play out without being planned.

I wasn't thinking about doing a gilt-relief dial, and was definitely NOT planning to do anything that looked a lot like a current Tudor model. But, the BSHT guys wanted the Carolina with a gilt relief dial, and I knew a production model using that dial could only be an Barracuda or an Amphion, so that one more or less designed itself.

I didn't see the P01 and think, "Yeah, we need to make an homage to THAT". But...

1. People had been asking for a Sub with a stainless bezel.

2. People had been asking for a 12 hour bezel.

3. People had been asking for another run of Amphions.

4. Although the P01 is a "new" model, c'mon, the whole backstory is about a 1967 MilSub that didn't happen. Stories don't get much more NTH-themed than that. But...

5. The actual inspiration had Merc hands, not snowflakes. I figured if Tudor is gonna f**k around and re-write history, so will we, but we'll do it "right", by giving it sword hands, just like the ones on the MOD-issued 1967 Seamaster 300 of that same year, and the 1971 Rolex 5517 MilSub which followed. As far as I know, snowflakes didn't appear on a Military-issue diver until the MN Tudors in 1969. And...

6. I figured, as long as we're coloring that far outside the "homage" lines, eff it, we might as well just make it its own thing anyway, and not worry about whether or not people see a resemblance, or how much of one.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> 1. People had been asking for a Sub with a stainless bezel.
> 
> 2. People had been asking for a 12 hour bezel.


This would have included me...



docvail said:


> 5. The actual inspiration had Merc hands, not snowflakes. I figured if Tudor is gonna f**k around and re-write history, so will we, but we'll do it "right", by giving it sword hands, just like the ones on the MOD-issued 1967 Seamaster 300 of that same year, and the 1971 Rolex 5517 MilSub which followed. As far as I know, snowflakes didn't appear on a Military-issue diver until the MN Tudors in 1969.


If you'd done mercedes hand, I never would have got one. I'd still have got one with snowflake hands, but probably wouldn't like it as much as the milsub hands. And I honestly, as a consumer, don't give a crap about the historical precedents, only the style to my eye.



docvail said:


> And...
> 
> 6. I figured, as long as we're coloring that far outside the "homage" lines, eff it, we might as well just make it its own thing anyway, and not worry about whether or not people see a resemblance, or how much of one.


I didn't get the reference to the P01 on my own, and wouldn't have made the connection if you hadn't mentioned it. I liked it in its own right.


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

doc this came up in the other thread and I didn't want to clog that thread up anymore than it already has been with our responses.

You mentioned that there have been several improvements over the years to include rhodium-plated markers and regulation to within 1/2 of the movement manufacturer's accuracy spec. I wasn't aware of these and like I said they've changed perspective on NTH subs value-wise. 

Point being, I've looked over your website and your US vendor's site and see no mention of these improvements/details in any of the descriptions. Seems like this would be important and valuable information that should probably be included in the description of your watches? Maybe these features have been mentioned in this thread before, but it was news to me until you mentioned it in the other thread. Just a thought. 

And thanks for changing my mind. My wallet might not thank you though. :-d


----------



## RPDK (Jan 26, 2019)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> And no mention of the Spork, which I lusted for for quite a while. :-d


A few years back, the Scorpene and Spork really cought my eyes, and of course both were impossible to get. Fast forward a year, and I found a bnib Spork lurking in the window at a local watch dealer. Took about 15 seconds before I bought it. Sadly, something about it didnt really suit me. May have been to big. But hey, for a short while I lived the dream . I found a white whale.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Sometimes, things just play out without being planned.
> 
> I wasn't thinking about doing a gilt-relief dial, and was definitely NOT planning to do anything that looked a lot like a current Tudor model. But, the BSHT guys wanted the Carolina with a gilt relief dial, and I knew a production model using that dial could only be an Barracuda or an Amphion, so that one more or less designed itself.
> 
> ...


It's interesting seeing that picture of the prototype posted.

It actually makes me appreciate the P01 more.

The long L2L is representative of the prototype and it seems tudor wanted to stick with that.

I think if people had more knowledge of the prototype, the P01 would be more accepted. This is the first I have seen of pics of the original. I'm sure thats true for a vast majority of the people.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rice and Gravy said:


> doc this came up in the other thread and I didn't want to clog that thread up anymore than it already has been with our responses.
> 
> You mentioned that there have been several improvements over the years to include rhodium-plated markers and regulation to within 1/2 of the movement manufacturer's accuracy spec. I wasn't aware of these and like I said they've changed perspective on NTH subs value-wise.
> 
> ...


Not being argumentative, but...

Where could I put it so that people would read it?

https://nthwatches.com/blogs/news/the-cost-of-quality-part-2

I get people asking me basic stuff, like prices and specs (all on the product page), or where they can buy something that isn't available on my site, when we have links to our retailers there.

There's only so much we can do to provide this info and make it available. It's up to people to look at it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

BOR's are up on the website.

PS - Shipping won't be until next week.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> And no mention of the Spork, which I lusted for for quite a while. :-d


True story: found out about the Spork last this past year and instantly tried finding one. Used prices were insane, and besides, I'm pretty sure it would be way to big for comfort (for me).

So I actually priced out a mod build based on a SKX case with Dagaz Big Numbers dial, appropriate date wheel and hands, and was considering either a lume or stainless 12hr bezel.

But then NTH re-released the Scorpene with better components ALREADY PROFESSIONALLY ASSEMBLED for less than or about the same as just the parts involved with building something similar from scratch.

And I found one being sold LNIB at a discount. Sold.

Only thing it didn't have was a 12hr bezel. So it got sold along to pick up the Amphion Commando. And now rumors of a Scorpene with 12hr bezel? *swoon*


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Because I like the rabbit hole of Tudor, NTH, BSHT, and my random shoehorning in of Seiko within the past 24 hours . . .

I too thought the P01 was a cool looking internal homage of an exotic prototype, which funny enough also looked a bit like an external homage of an SKX case.

So, since the P01 size and cost were way outside of my range, I built this a little while back.

I don't want to full-on Tudor it (dial and hands) and I can't quite get the Tudor bezel and insert copied, but it scratches the itch well enough.





































So both of my current SKXs are Tudor-influenced 










And a random picture of a sub so I don't get yelled at for NTH thread Seiko spamming:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> Not being argumentative, but...
> 
> Where could I put it so that people would read it?
> 
> ...


I looked for it on yours and multiple vendor sites and didn't see anything as I assumed the natural fit to note rodium plating and regulating the movement beyond manufacturer specs would be under the technical specs of the watch, not a blog post. I should have looked further. These 2 features are selling points to these watches that should be noted that currently isn't readily apparent is all I'm saying. And since you asked, put it in the technical specs.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Glad you like it. It's one of my personal faves, as well.
> 
> Funny you like the dial layout better than the Sinn. When we revealed that design, some of the most vehement criticism we got was that the dial was too crowded, specifically compared to the Sinn.
> 
> ...


That's totally the opposite of my thought. I always think there's too much empty space in the Sinn dial, and those skinny hands don't help at all. I think the key is putting it in smaller overall case like you did. I still like the Sinn though, but NTH just did it better. Seiko also did it better with the Spork, but they have a bad habit of ruining what supposed to be a balanced layout with an ugly date window opening.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> Apropos of almost nothing, I think I'm starting to love the Tudor PO1. I can't tell if it's the design or the fact so many WISsnobs seem to hate it.
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Can't get the hate either. It is a very interesting watch, to say the least. It looks okay and is certainly unique. I think part of the hate is stirred from/by these so called "influencers". This is what I see especially on IG, where some big names on watches would bash the watch and then a bunch of snobs would follow.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> This would have included me...
> 
> If you'd done mercedes hand, I never would have got one. I'd still have got one with snowflake hands, but probably wouldn't like it as much as the milsub hands. And I honestly, as a consumer, don't give a crap about the historical precedents, only the style to my eye.
> 
> I didn't get the reference to the P01 on my own, and wouldn't have made the connection if you hadn't mentioned it. I liked it in its own right.


People don't typically get the Polerouter inspiration behind the Tikuna on their own. People see the numbers, and a lot of them instantly shout "Oris 65" or "KonTiki".

As. If.

The Tikuna was influenced by two different Polerouters, a Sicura, and the Longines Legend Diver. To me, that makes it "an homage", but not "just another homage", and also a little bit "original", to whatever extent anything can be original.

The Vanguard was inspired by the DevilRay, which was inspired by Doxa, Certina, Seiko, and Ball.

"Homage" doesn't simply mean "looks just like ____", at least not to me.

People who hate on homages take $hlt way too seriously.

Their loss.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



RPDK said:


> I'll present you all with todays first world problem:
> 
> No one knows what the hell a Tudor is, and that it may present a certain value.
> 
> Would I pay Rolex money for a BB58 with a Rolex label, most likely not. But what is the point of paying Brand name tax, if no one knows the brand? .


Reminds me of a friend who rocks a Tudor, and she is totally not a watch person. She just came from a wealthy family (his parents wear Rolexes). I think they are just used to luxury goods. I can imagine them walking into a boutique, have a little chit chat and seal a deal or two. But to some extent, I think she knows the quality is there.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rice and Gravy said:


> I looked for it on yours and multiple vendor sites and didn't see anything as I assumed the natural fit to note rodium plating and regulating the movement beyond manufacturer specs would be under the technical specs of the watch, not a blog post. I should have looked further. These 2 features are selling points to these watches that should be noted that currently isn't readily apparent is all I'm saying. And since you asked, put it in the technical specs.


Right. I got that.

My challenge is simply:

A - People don't always read the tech specs which are already there, if they even see them.

B - The more we try to jam in there, the more likely it is that people will overlook something.

C - More than half of all traffic we're seeing is people on mobile devices, often coming to us via social media. Even with the best layout of a web page, the specs list isn't going to be as easily found/navigated as it would be on a larger screen. And either way, a lot of people aren't going to the site, just demanding info via social.

D - Over 90% of my sales are through retailers. I can put anything I want on my site. I can't make them follow suit.

E - If I advertise it, it becomes an expectation. I've found that the more we increase quality, and the more we or anyone else talk about the quality, the more quality complaints we get from guys who have had their expectations built up to unrealistic levels.

For example, if you think it's just going to be a decent $650 watch, you might be blown away by how good it really is. If you think it's going to be an amazing $650 watch, you're more likely to be looking at it for "proof" of what makes it so amazing, and to be disappointed that it isn't perfect down to the microscopic level.

Likewise, we still get guys asking us about accuracy, even now, when we regulate to 1/2 of spec. I just had one the other day, and had to explain how accuracy actually works to him.

I'm not trying to attract more accuracy-nuts as customers. We regulate to 1/2 of spec in order to cut down on the number of complaints we get from guys who can't be happy with 20 sec/day on the wrist. We don't do it because we want to run around thumping our chest about our amazing accuracy. It's more a precautionary measure than an attempt at differentiation.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

docvail said:


> I don't think everyone who buys a Tudor is buying it because of the luxury label. I have no doubt some really like the watch enough to buy it, without regard for anyone's future reaction to it.
> ...


I didn't even know I wanted a Tudor until I stumbled across the Day-Date Cali dial model on ebay. The price was well outside my comfort range, but I'm a fan of California dials, and this appears to be the last Cali dial made by a Rolex affiliated company, so that counted a bit, historically. It's small, at 36mm, which I like. They're also pretty uncommon; maybe not rare, but you can't just find one for sale at any given moment.

It's polarizing to a lot of people - the dial's got a lot going on for a small watch, some people hate Cali dials, some people hate magnifiers, but I like it a lot. Quirky watches are a thing for me.

These are my two nicest California dial watches:


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Renegade got the nod today, and I managed a pic that captures how the dial can change colors so drastically. I still can't figure it out, but I sure do love it!









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I'd like it if Doc did the Renegade with sword hands. That'd be interesting.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

docvail said:


> BOR's are up on the website.
> 
> PS - Shipping won't be until next week.


Just ordered... very excited. Sadly will be a month before I can pick up.. also means I'm gunna have to pack the Santa Cruz for my winter in Canada. Can't be holding a bracelet with no watch attached for 3 months can I?

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

I have many watches. I like them all. My Nacken is a very nice watch as is my Tudor.

Own and wear whatever you like.

Cheers!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

What is that watch on the far right? It's neat looking.


----------



## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Toonces said:


> What is that watch on the far right? It's neat looking.


Judging by that DEEP a$$ rehaut, I am guessing marathon. That build is awesome looking.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Toonces said:


> What is that watch on the far right? It's neat looking.


Thats a modified Marathon with a BSHt dial.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

docvail said:


> ................ *to whatever extent anything can be original.
> *
> 
> *People who hate on homages take $hlt way too seriously*.
> ...


'nuff said, this totally sums it up, well for me anyway. Spooky thing how a watch looks like, erm.......a watch.

People, whatever you are wearing on your wrist this weekend, enjoy it and have a good one.

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> The barometer/barograph on the Rangeman is extremely useful and a real time saver for an officer of the deck of any ship. The weather has to be logged every hour and there is only one barograph on the bridge. The Rangeman can be calibrated as an accurate and reliable repeater.
> 
> 
> 
> The barograph is useful to anyone paying attention to the local weather.


I had a Rangeman and enjoyed several of the features. But dang those suckers are big. Maybe if I had a legit use like you described, or was into camping or similar, I could have worn it more. Felt odd to me to wear it in normal settings. Best I could muster on a regular basis was mowing the lawn.

I take a look at G-Shock and ProTrek every now and again hoping to find something a little more conservative. I have that solar, atomic G-Shock square with the metal case back. Like it a lot. Sprinkle in just a couple of the Rangeman's features and some easier to use buttons and it would be fantastic.


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

Finally found a strap to go with the SC!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

It's not a Sub, not even an NTH, but this one has spent more time on my wrist over the last several months than the rest of my watches combined.


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

Was in the mood to throw a watch pic up. Got to try this on at District Time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

MaxIcon said:


> I didn't even know I wanted a Tudor until I stumbled across the Day-Date Cali dial model on ebay. The price was well outside my comfort range, but I'm a fan of California dials, and this appears to be the last Cali dial made by a Rolex affiliated company, so that counted a bit, historically. It's small, at 36mm, which I like. They're also pretty uncommon; maybe not rare, but you can't just find one for sale at any given moment.
> 
> It's polarizing to a lot of people - the dial's got a lot going on for a small watch, some people hate Cali dials, some people hate magnifiers, but I like it a lot. Quirky watches are a thing for me.
> 
> ...


Cool Date-Day! I've been considering one of those - but with the easier to get silver or mosaic dials. They seem sort of like NTH - brand new vintage watches. Leagues cheaper than any Rolex (and with a counterculture type of cool from being Tudor vs. Rolex). But still more than I've ever spent on one watch. I'd be tempted by the very cool Cali version if they weren't more expensive.

Does it live up to the hype - feels special? Is the classic Rolex style 36mm case really God's gift to wrists?

My only current Cali dial...


----------



## Mikefable (Feb 26, 2019)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

My favorite NTH out of all 5 that I own/owned. Simple. Yet effective.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ That's a great combo.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)




----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Put me in the P01 hater camp. I still think it looks like the world's nicest SKX013 Tudor homage. Something quite interesting though is Sergio Direnzo's take on the classic dive watch. The case is very conventional and almost "ordinary" compared to the extremely unique DRZ 02 case, but plenty of people were put off by that, so this may end up being more of a crowd pleaser. The dial and hands though I think are his best execution yet. Particularly the hands which seem like what a hypothetical FP Journe dive watch might use.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Put me in the P01 hater camp. I still think it looks like the world's nicest SKX013 Tudor homage. Something quite interesting though is Sergio Direnzo's take on the classic dive watch. The case is very conventional and almost "ordinary" compared to the extremely unique DRZ 02 case, but plenty of people were put off by that, so this may end up being more of a crowd pleaser. The dial and hands though I think are his best execution yet. Particularly the hands which seem like what a hypothetical FP Journe dive watch might use.
> 
> View attachment 14614945


Wow, that dial looks impressive!


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Seikogi said:


> Wow, that dial looks impressive!


Meh.... still waiting for the Nth XL releases... come on Doc... we is waiting!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

docvail said:


> Right. I got that.
> 
> My challenge is simply:
> 
> ...


This 1000%...I see the same thing as a General Contractor. I want my customers to be blown away by my product, so I explain what I need to but don't "overexplain". To put it another way...I remember several years ago a fast food chain had a policy that if they didn't give the receipt to the customer, the customer got a refund and their food was free. I didn't care to get a receipt, but I looked in that bag EVERY time to see if that little scrap of paper was in there.

I foolishly sold my Nacken Vintage Black awhile back in a down-sizing spree. I have a new-to-me black Odin on the way from a fellow WUS member and I'm stoked! Here's the one now gone. Doc, I hope you do this one again...seriously good looking piece.


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

Not describing aspects of your product that add to your value proposition seems like an opportunity lost to me, but no big deal, his choice obviously and has described why in detail. I get it and he's selling plenty without it regardless.  

Anyway, did I see a post somewhere in this thread suggesting that there will be a Scorpene with a 12 hour bezel?


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Seikogi said:


> NTH
> cons:
> movement finish not as great as on Tudor although I have not taken both of them apart


Who cares? The BB has a solid caseback!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> Seikogi said:
> 
> 
> > NTH
> ...


Define "finish".

Does that mean "decoration", or literally, the finishing of the parts of the movement?

My watchmaker has taken them apart, and the finishing of the 9015's parts is impressive, better than the finishing on the parts of Swiss movements he's had apart (albeit, they've been ETAs, not Tudors).

Decoration, or the lack of it, is kind of a weird thing, when trying to figure out if it matters or not.

Finishing at least arguably has an impact on operation and performance, at least when it comes to those parts which work off each other, like the parts of the gear train. Does the finishing of a plate matter as much, if you're not looking at it, or can't see it behind a solid case back? I don't know.

Decoration would seem to be purely aesthetic. It wouldn't *seem* to matter if you can't see it, but...I dunno, I kind of feel like a lot of WIS would still put some value on just knowing that it's there, even if it can't be seen.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I had an epiphany recently. I hope I can remember it accurately...

I think I realized that what drew me into this wasn't being all that interested in watches. It was that I was fascinated by the people who are into watches. 

As a group, y'all are a strange bunch.

Take the Tudors with the ETA movements as an example...

1. They worked.

2. In theory (which is to say, notwithstanding any potential future state in which no one can get ETA parts), they can be serviced by any watchmaker.

3. They were thinner than the in-house movements which replaced them (not that you can tell by the way Tudor designs cases).

But, it seems people didn't want to pay Tudor money for a watch with a lowly ETA movement inside. 

I understand the logic, as far as it goes. But the in-house movement (MT5612), despite having a longer PR, doesn't seem to be superior performance in any other way, yet it's thicker (apparently requiring an even thicker case), seems plagued with problems, and would seem to be more expensive/complicated to service.

It seems that a lot of guys now put a premium on the ETA-equipped models. Go figure.

I can't help but be reminded of the frequent "for that price, I wish it had an ETA, not a Miyota" movement comments. The 9015 spanks the ETA 2824-2 in every objective way, just like the ETA seems to be better all-around than the in-house MT.

Take accuracy...

1. You know mechanical movements aren't all that accurate, compared to quartz. If you *need* your watch to be super-accurate, you know you should be wearing a quartz watch.

2. You know if you want better accuracy in a mechanical, "guaranteed", you can step up to COSC spec.

3. You more than likely rotate through so many watches that you're unlikely to be wearing the same watch for days in a row. The watch you're wearing on any given day was probably stopped when you grabbed it. You're likely setting the time before you put it on, making the amount of time it gains or loses in a 24 hour period largely irrelevant.

4. In your heart of hearts, you know these watches are expensive man jewelry, and we buy them for how they look more than how they perform.

5. If you are concerned with accuracy, hopefully you know that your hand-winding habits, wearing habits, and other factors can affect accuracy on the wrist, such that we really can't guarantee performance on the wrist, only on the timegrapher, which is to say, in a controlled test.

And yet, I routinely see guys arguing over accuracy in mechanical movements, and get guys asking me about the accuracy in ours. I don't get it.

Take the whole "China" thing...

1. We all know a lot of what we use day-to-day is made in China. Somehow we deal with it.

2. We should know a lot of what gets marked as "Swiss Made" has a lot of Chinese-produced content in it.

3. We understand it's because of lower labor costs, and yet somehow a lot of guys can't wrap their heads around the better value in a watch being made in China, to the same standard as a watch "made" in Switzerland. I could tell you they're of equal quality, and a lot of folks will simply refuse to believe it.

And yet, I see guys saying they won't buy anything made in China. Really? How do you know the watch you're buying has ZERO Chinese-made content? It seems like willful self-deception to me. You're willing to pay more just to tell yourself and others that what you bought is "Swiss", even without it being measurably better?


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

[QUOTESomething quite interesting though is Sergio Direnzo's take on the classic dive watch. The case is very conventional and almost "ordinary" compared to the extremely unique DRZ 02 case, but plenty of people were put off by that, so this may end up being more of a crowd pleaser. The dial and hands though I think are his best execution yet. Particularly the hands which seem like what a hypothetical FP Journe dive watch might use.

View attachment 14614945

View attachment 14614947
[/QUOTE]

Wow. I love the blue dial Direnzo!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

docvail said:


> Take the Tudors with the ETA movements as an example... [snip]. It seems that a lot of guys now put a premium on the ETA-equipped models. Go figure.


I'll declare an interest as I own one of the ETA Tudor BB Blacks (and love virtually everything about it, including its heft. Conversely, I admire the NTH subs because of their elegant case design... I like different things, wow I might end up getting in trouble in binary-argument internet land).

I think there are two main reasons the watch remains coveted despite the in-house version;

1. The dial and rarity. The rose logo and 'smiley' text are precisely the small details guaranteed to drive a watch fan crazy - especially because of the relative rarity of the black version (A six-month run as a sort of interregnum between the old and new in-house version?). As Tudor began clawing its way back into relevance as a brand (it was as dead as disco before the BB), this piece will become an important part of its history. Thought about selling mine, but decided against it. Too much of an oddity.

2. Tudor have a decent rep with the BBs and the Ranger (which I also own) for improving the ETA movements substantially (and they don't even make much of a fuss of it). There are several threads of the Tudor forum where guys who obsess over such things show the performance specs of these two models well within COSC parameters. Of course, the ETA 2324 is a solid movement anyhow, but Tudor *do* tweak it.

I've seen the in-house BBs and tried them on, the slab-sided cases aren't a deal-breaker for me, but the riveted bracelets and (to me) anodyne dial text sort of ruins it for me. Such is the lot of the watch nerd.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> I'll declare an interest as I own one of the ETA Tudor BB Blacks (and love virtually everything about it, including its heft. Conversely, I admire the NTH subs because of their elegant case design... I like different things, wow I might end up getting in trouble in binary-argument internet land).
> 
> I think there are two main reasons the watch remains coveted despite the in-house version;
> 
> ...


Yes. I did understand that there are aesthetic differences between the ETA versions and the in-house versions, and that many prefer the aesthetics of the ETA.

My point was that the reasoning behind Tudor creating the in-house versions in the first place was that people turned their nose up at the ETA in a watch with the Tudor's price.

The point was that much of what WIS clamor for or rail against often ends up falling under the "careful what you wish for" heading.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

^ Yes I see. it makes the BBN ETA version a happy accident.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Define "finish".
> 
> Does that mean "decoration", or literally, the finishing of the parts of the movement?
> 
> ...


Bear with me; this is going to get a little wordy, but I have a point to make. I'll try to make up for the WoT with some pictures.

I have a bit of a "side hobby" of rescuing pocket watches. Now, I'll caveat up front that "value" is defined most generally as "what someone else is willing to pay" for something. That said, IMO, pocket watches are extremely undervalued today. For years now, people have been yanking the movements out of watch cases made of precious metals to melt the cases down. Now you have companies like Vortic who have created a successful business out of re-casing pocket watch movements as wrist watches, further reducing the pool of these vintage watches.

And yet, you can find them in just about any antique or watch shop, selling for a song. A few months ago on a whim, I "rescued" this Waltham from a dusty corner of a display case for $100. I probably could have even argued the guy down further if I'd felt like it. $100 for a watch that was made in 1895 or 1896 and still runs. Less than $1 per year.

















And since it was the topic of "finish" that set me off on this rant, look at the movement on this thing:









Here's another one. This is a Hampden that my great grandfather bought when he got to this country in 1920. Cash value at the local antique shop? Maybe $200. Value to me? One of the most precious things that I own.









You can't convince me that these aren't undervalued. I believe that late 19th / early 20th century American watchmaking represents one of the crowning examples of American craftsmanship. and yet, these weren't even bespoke, hand crafted articles for rich guys. They were mass produced and economical, intended for the every-man who needed to know what time it was as he went about his business. Incredible.

These watches weren't babied or locked away in safes. They were used daily for decades perhaps. And then they were tossed into dresser drawers or left to collect dust on top of night stands, thrown into storage boxes, packed away in the corners of musty attics or basements for yet more decades while the world changed, then rediscovered and fiddled with out of ignorant curiosity before being sold off for a few quick bucks.

Anyway, my point is that if there's any art in this hobby of ours, a big part of it might be in the extra care and attention to detail implied in "decorating" movements that might almost never see the light of day. When they do, it's like finding a small hidden treasure. I dunno. Call it "gratuitous craftsmanship".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> ^ Yes I see. it makes the BBN ETA version a happy accident.


The main point was just how... I don't want to say "hypocritical", but... perplexing so much of WIS discussion ends up being.

Try explaining to a non-WIS that you're disappointed your mechanical watch gains or loses 15 seconds per day, even though it was affordable, and that's within the specs you could have read when you bought it. I guarantee they don't know what you're talking about.

Try explaining a willingness to pay more for something of equivalent quality and function, just to stay it was made in one place versus another.

Try explaining why a Tudor with an ETA movement just wasn't good enough.

See what sort of looks you get.

That sort of stuff, the way WIS obsess over some things, to me, is WAY more interesting than the watches themselves.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

^ Of course, we're now into a much wider psychological realm. Cars. Clothes. Guns. One of my other weaknesses is tech... Apple is a case in point, hours of fun parsing the value / aesthetic / performance trade-offs that people substitute for emotion and tribal instinct.


----------



## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

MarkND said:


> I was stationed in South Korea in the mid 80's, mostly at Osan AB. During an exercise they launched 54 F-4's in a row, that was awesome to watch. Or watching F-15's stand on their tail shortly after takeoff and blast straight up like a rocket. While there I went TDY for a month to a strafing/bombing range on the coast where I was able to watch A-10's and F-16's make runs, fairly close up. Not much compares to watching an A-10 on a strafing run. Cool .... for sure.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I got to watch A-10 runs in Gulf War I. Had a couple fly right over our position heading down range. They're quieter than you expect. It was pretty cool. Even better to see what a tank looks like after being hit by one.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That was a great post, Coriolanus. And beautiful watches, thanks for sharing those pictures!


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Decoration would seem to be purely aesthetic. It wouldn't *seem* to matter if you can't see it, but...I dunno, I kind of feel like a lot of WIS would still put some value on just knowing that it's there, even if it can't be seen.


Probably. But it's still nuts to do so!


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Yes. I did understand that there are aesthetic differences between the ETA versions and the in-house versions, and that many prefer the aesthetics of the ETA.
> 
> My point was that the reasoning behind Tudor creating the in-house versions in the first place was that people turned their nose up at the ETA in a watch with the Tudor's price.
> 
> ...


The Eta black bays seems to be in demand though? Rarely can logic be assigned to the likes and dislikes of watch crowds. Take the new p01 black Bay if that were produced by anyone else it would garner no interest, that watch was universally hated six months ago now it's "better in person" I don't buy it. The only reason anyone wants it is they think it will be rare and collectible(which is smart financially) but come on that watch is terrible.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Palmettoman said:


> I foolishly sold my Nacken Vintage Black awhile back in a down-sizing spree. I have a new-to-me black Odin on the way from a fellow WUS member and I'm stoked! Here's the one now gone. Doc, I hope you do this one again...seriously good looking piece.
> View attachment 14615471
> View attachment 14615475


Agree, it gets as much wrist time here as any watch.


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

Orthos Commander 300


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

And again.


----------



## tennesseean_87 (May 31, 2011)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Coriolanus said:


> Bear with me; this is going to get a little wordy, but I have a point to make. I'll try to make up for the WoT with some pictures.
> 
> I have a bit of a "side hobby" of rescuing pocket watches. Now, I'll caveat up front that "value" is defined most generally as "what someone else is willing to pay" for something.


I used to work with an antiques dealer and somewhere along the line, traded something to him for an Illinois Watch Co. pocket watch. When times got tough I went to see what a different dealer would give me for it, and he said, "Not much, maybe $25, but I have a drawer full of them I can't move at $50, so not buying right now." Glad it didn't sell, because the guy I got it from is a good friend, not long for this world, and I will hang onto it in memory.

Fast forward and I find WUS, post pix over in Vintage and Pocket forum. based on the serial number, someone there sleuths it to 1893 manufacture, probably re-cased in the 1910s. Woah, had no idea.

Brought it to the Boston GTG recently, and it was a hit. Lots of interest in it, probably the oldest watch there. Now that I'm into watches a bit more, I also have fallen back in love with it, again glad I didn't let it go way too cheap at any point in the past.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

Neat!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wtma said:


> Neat!


Awesome pic.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## gelocks (Feb 18, 2014)

Red PeeKay said:


> Meh.... still waiting for the Nth XL releases... come on Doc... we is waiting!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


I just came here to bother Doc about this one!!
Hopefully it's still in the plans?

Thanks.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

I hate this new Tapatalk behaviour that would resize every picture uploaded :-/


----------



## Mil6161 (Oct 5, 2012)

Deep Six on a Barton...damn these things are comfortable








Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Awesome pic.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Would you ever make fitted rubber straps?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Mil6161 said:


> Deep Six on a Barton...damn these things are comfortable
> View attachment 14622023
> 
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Yup, love em. Sun screen will stain them white, but a bit of dish soap gets that right off and then they look like new again.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> Would you ever make fitted rubber straps?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I would doubt it. Not enough watches sold to take advantage of creating the strap.

Someone like crafter blue can make them for seikos because there are a ton of seiko divers sold world wide that can use those straps.

However, if doc does decide to make them, I'll def buy one.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

For your info, there's a fitted rubber strap suitable for NTH - it shares the similar end links as rolex (that's why ginault can be fitted).








This was from https://www.watch-band-center.com/watchstrap-p31453h254s1470-Watch-strap-Redding-.html


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



liquidtension said:


> For your info, there's a fitted rubber strap suitable for NTH - it shares the similar end links as rolex (that's why ginault can be fitted).
> View attachment 14622237
> 
> 
> This was from https://www.watch-band-center.com/watchstrap-p31453h254s1470-Watch-strap-Redding-.html


Looking great!
Thanks for this.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> Would you ever make fitted rubber straps?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


IBTWOT!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gelocks said:


> I just came here to bother Doc about this one!!
> Hopefully it's still in the plans?
> 
> Thanks.


It's still in the plans. I've got about a dozen different and semi-urgent projects on my plate at the moment. It's one of those frequent times when there just doesn't seem to be enough hours in the day, and I'm in a steady state of being behind.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> Would you ever make fitted rubber straps?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Very doubtful. At least not until my sales volume increases, a lot.

I've looked into it. The tooling costs are insanely expensive, compared to the other production costs, when looked at in the context of how many straps I actually sell, which isn't many.

My MOQ on straps is 300-350, depending on vendor. At that number, the fitted end effectively doubles the price of the straps. It would take me forever to sell that many, especially at 2x the price.

When we made the NTH Tropics, I had the straps made to include with the watch, plus I think we ordered 50 extra. It took about a year to sell those 50 straps, which were widely recognized as being nice, and were not expensive.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ryan850 said:


> I would doubt it. Not enough watches sold to take advantage of creating the strap.
> 
> Someone like crafter blue can make them for seikos because there are a ton of seiko divers sold world wide that can use those straps.
> 
> ...


This.

Just like Strapcode can make a business selling bracelets for Seikos. There are so many of them out there.

I was able to rationalize making the 300 BOR bracelets for the Subs, because we've made over 3,000 NTH Subs to date, with more planned, so I figured there would be enough demand.

And it didn't cost me "extra" to make them fitted to the Subs' case, so the bracelets don't cost a lot more than a good alternative which will also fit. There really aren't many/any really good alternatives.

Those BOR's started shipping Monday or yesterday, so peeps should be getting them as soon as today. Hope to start seeing those pics popping up soon.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> For your info, there's a fitted rubber strap suitable for NTH - it shares the similar end links as rolex (that's why ginault can be fitted).
> View attachment 14622237
> 
> 
> This was from https://www.watch-band-center.com/watchstrap-p31453h254s1470-Watch-strap-Redding-.html


That looks like a really nice strap, especially for the money. Looks like the identical strap from Everest is $240.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Next episode of Doc's House Calls is up.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Finally wearing it on the bracelet. Not sure why I thought I didn't like it, but I've come around.:think:


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> That looks like a really nice strap, especially for the money. Looks like the identical strap from Everest is $240.


It does look good

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

This polyurethane strap fits the NTH case curve pretty well, too. It's definitely on the cheaper side, both in price ($6 USD) and feel. I didn't want to drop too much money on something that might not fit.

It fits nicely when not worn:








But there's a little gap when worn. Not sure if it's a strap quality issue or the size of my wrist causing the strap to curve down sooner than it was designed to.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sussa said:


> ...But there's a little gap when worn. Not sure if it's a strap quality issue or the size of my wrist causing the strap to curve down sooner than it was designed to.
> View attachment 14623249


Good for collecting skin cheese...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

^^^ Puke richly.......


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

NTH Beads-of-Rice doing that watch enhancing thing.........

Works a treat.









Cheerz (not cheese...),

Alan


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Sussa said:


> This polyurethane strap fits the NTH case curve pretty well, too. It's definitely on the cheaper side, both in price ($6 USD) and feel. I didn't want to drop too much money on something that might not fit.
> 
> It fits nicely when not worn:
> View attachment 14623247
> ...


the lug end is not a tight fit, you can put some tape to making it tighter (TWSS)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> the lug end is not a tight fit, you can put some tape to making it tighter (TWSS)


I'm pretty sure she NEVER authorized the use of tape for a tighter fit.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

New shoes:









Also, Epstein didn't kill himself.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> I'm pretty sure she NEVER authorized the use of tape for a tighter fit.


you'll never know what goes behind the door.....


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

This little beauty has come for a visit. I was not sure if I would like this watch as it is a little busy for my usual tastes. That being said, on the wrist it has real presence. The touches of colour have a real impact, and the black dial and bezel have a lovely deep gloss to them.

Overall the design really works together to make this a funky modern take on vintage style.









Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

Excellent micro adjustment features on this clasp. It IS better than the V1 bracelet, which was, in turn, better than the Orthos bracelet. So, things are both looking and feeling very awesome with this Santa Cruz now.

None of my watches have lasted on a bracelet more than two weeks or so before I was back to a leather strap or a NATO. I have several with bracelets that I've never worn at all. This one *might* set a new record.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, just a heads-up...

The NTH website is now sold out of all Subs, EXCEPT for the Barracuda Brown, the Näcken Vintage White, the Odin Black, and the Vanguard. 

For all of those, all we have is no-date, and low single-digit inventory - like, one or two pieces of most of those.

I get periodic updates from my retailers on what they have in stock. I try to rebalance inventory distribution by getting them to swap inventory here and there, so that none of them is sitting on too many pieces of anything. 

Across the board, there are fewer than 10 pieces left per version, on average, in all the world. But, if you look at each store, more often than not, they're not going to have all models in stock, and many of them will only have 1 or 2 pieces of whatever's in stock.

All of a sudden, like clockwork, now we're getting hammered with messages from guys asking when we'll make more of this model, or that model, because it's either sold out everywhere, or isn't available from the store they want to buy it from, because of taxes, shipping, or whatever. 

I do mean "hammered". Like, a dozen of those messages, just this week.

If this is starting to sound familiar, you've been paying attention.

Before you ask, "Doc, are you going to make more..." stop. Please. Best get one before they're gone. If they're gone, you should have gotten one when they were still available. Sorry to disappoint you, but you can't take 6 months to think about it sometimes.


----------



## LordBrettSinclair (Sep 22, 2015)

But playing "availability chicken" is all part of the fun.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LordBrettSinclair said:


> But playing "availability chicken" is all part of the fun.


Not for me.

People have no idea. I wanna chuck my laptop across the room when I see guys trashing micros for being sold out, doing pre-orders, or anything else a small business is forced to do when it has to contend with a months-long production time, and a year-long design-to-delivery cycle. I see it a lot. I wish those guys were sitting in my office saying that stuff. I'd chuck the laptop at them.

It's almost always a tale of two cities, feast or famine.

Two or three months ago, I was practically $hltting myself because the entire industry seemed to call a cease-fire on sales mid-year, and it looked like we might end the year with a glut of inventory. I can't rationalize ordering more watches when that happens. How do you order 300 more for a late-year delivery when there are still 500 available at the end of summer?

Fast forward 2-3 months, it's like someone flicked the sales switch "on". Retailers are asking me for inventory they didn't want when I offered it to them not too long ago. Suddenly there isn't enough to go around. Now I'm scrambling to jam something into the production pipeline as quickly as I can, so we have stuff to sell a few months from now, because whatever we have now will certainly be gone by then, and everyone will be trying to crawl up my a$$ looking for keistered stock.

We're not trying to create "artificial scarcity". Nobody can perfectly predict demand months or a year in advance, or explain why no one bought anything for most of Q3, or why suddenly people are buying again. Stuff just happens, for who knows what reason, which is why I periodically make a public service announcement about getting what you want before it's gone.

Everything available now will be gone before too long, most of it before the year ends, and certainly before we deliver the March/April release. Most of what we've produced in the last 12 months won't be seen again for the better part of a year, regardless of how popular any of it was, how many people want one, or how loudly they clamor for it. There just isn't enough time or money available to me to create and maintain perpetually renewable inventory on everything.

Artificial scarcity?

Pfffft!

Try unbridled transparency.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

Doc, I noticed you tagged Gnomon Watches on your last IG post. Are they going to be one of your retailers soon?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wtma said:


> Doc, I noticed you tagged Gnomon Watches on your last IG post. Are they going to be one of your retailers soon?


I dunno. The door is open to discussion, if they want to walk through it.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Completely off topic, I saw this ad on Timebum yesterday and I think it's pretty cool.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

It seems like a really bad idea to run out of watches right before Xmas...before Black Friday even. 

Not trying to tell you how to run your business, what the heck do I know about running a watch company, but for many this is the start of the buying season.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Helluva nice bracelet.









Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> It seems like a really bad idea to run out of watches right before Xmas...before Black Friday even.
> 
> Not trying to tell you how to run your business, what the heck do I know about running a watch company, but for many this is the start of the buying season.


Not as bad as needing to do a Black Friday sale because you can't figure out how to move inventory.

If I have to choose between being sold out too soon and not being sold out soon enough, that's an easy choice.

"Man it sucks to be sitting on all this cash in the bank. I really wish it was inventory, which I can't trade for things like food and gas," said no one, ever.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

SteamJ said:


> Helluva nice bracelet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


skipjack was voted the best worn with the bor last few months ago. I think the pairing is absolutely perfect!


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Santa Cruz... right hand drive version! 









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Two or three months ago, I was practically $hltting myself because the entire industry seemed to call a cease-fire on sales mid-year, and it looked like we might end the year with a glut of inventory. I can't rationalize ordering more watches when that happens. How do you order 300 more for a late-year delivery when there are still 500 available at the end of summer?
> 
> Fast forward 2-3 months, it's like someone flicked the sales switch "on". Retailers are asking me for inventory they didn't want when I offered it to them not too long ago. Suddenly there isn't enough to go around. Now I'm scrambling to jam something into the production pipeline as quickly as I can, so we have stuff to sell a few months from now, because whatever we have now will certainly be gone by then, and everyone will be trying to crawl up my a$$ looking for keistered stock.


It's been the same in the used watch market, too. Somehow sales and deals have started to go, after months of standstill. Curious change. 
Might be the market sort-of self-regulating from one extreme to another, in face of looming financial uncertainty for most folks (irrational behaviour) combined with start of the "shopping season".. Imo, this oscillation will again correct, and over-correct, hard, in the downward direction around jan/feb.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

SteamJ said:


> Helluva nice bracelet.


Sigh... I had convinced myself to hold off on this bracelet. Oh, well, trigger pulled. At least I can stop checking the webpage daily to see if they're still available.

I'm a fan of playing chicken with the stock level - saves me some money, but costs me in time and regret!


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Toonces said:


> Completely off topic, I saw this ad on Timebum yesterday and I think it's pretty cool.


Not Odin...

More like Whoa! Damn!!!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

So Doc should be spending some of that ad money on good looking women with the NTH watches draped provocatively on them?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> It seems like a really bad idea to run out of watches right before Xmas...before Black Friday even.
> 
> Not trying to tell you how to run your business, what the heck do I know about running a watch company, but for many this is the start of the buying season.





docvail said:


> Not as bad as needing to do a Black Friday sale because you can't figure out how to move inventory.
> 
> If I have to choose between being sold out too soon and not being sold out soon enough, that's an easy choice.
> 
> ...


Sometimes I read something I posted a little while later, and think it sounds rude, despite not being meant as such.

Let me try again, if only to ease my conscience...

1. We don't do Black Friday, or any other sales, or discounts, at least not for the last 2-3 years. They're bad for brand value. Thankfully, we're in a position where we don't need to do them. It's not luck, it's a lot of effort to maintain production volume at a level where it's balanced by demand, and constant work to maintain that demand.

2. Historically, we never saw a lot of sales leading up to the holidays. I used to think I knew which months would be good, which would be bad, and why, but this year has me questioning how certain I should be about that. But, in any case, my theory is that most people buying watches from brands like mine are guys buying a watch for themselves, but that gets harder to justify as the holidays and all their associated costs loom ahead.

3. As such, I try to be sold out, or damned close, before the holidays. Part of it is that I know any inventory we have isn't likely to sell until the new year (more on that in a moment). Part of it is that I know that all my competitors start getting desperate as the year winds down, and their sales figures aren't what they'd hoped they'd be. I know that every year, they're going to get more aggressive on their sales, and start them sooner, especially in a year like this, where sales were slow, throughout the industry, for most of the year. If all my competitors are going to be doing Black Friday, Cyber Monday, and any other holiday sales, I want my inventory levels to be as low as possible before they start.

4. Accounting for anything (including inventory) carried over from one year to the next is a pain, and adds to my workload. Ending the year with no inventory at all, no pending pre-orders, and no one owing me money makes things so much simpler.

5. Whereas we've commonly seen November & December as slow sales months, January is often a good month. My theory is that all the guys who didn't buy anything for themselves in November-December, and didn't get what they wanted for the holidays, will pay off the credit card, and reward themselves with a watch in January, which is why I like to have something available then, preferably something we just released (a great start to the year), but that might be supplemented by the last of my previous year's inventory.

So, no, it's not a bad idea for me to be running out of watches as the year winds down, since we've got more coming for January. It's awesome. I love it when a plan comes together. I'd rather be running out of inventory selling it at full price than begging people to take it at a discount.

My biggest problem right now is figuring out what to make next.

And I need to get back to that.

Peace!

I'm out.


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

Toonces said:


> Completely off topic, I saw this ad on Timebum yesterday and I think it's pretty cool.


Nice watch, innit.

Ric


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

What was the proposed sizing on the “XL” cases? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr_Finer_Things said:


> What was the proposed sizing on the "XL" cases?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Diameter of the bezel is 43.75mm. It overhangs the case slightly. I think the case is 1mm narrower, so 42.75mm.

51mm lug-to-lug.


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

Guess I will wait those dimensions are about perfect for me 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Yeah, what's wrong with you Doc? You're going to miss out on the 3 or 4 Christmas sales to partners of dudes who literally sent them a link to one of your watches and said "Buy this for me because I won't like anything you pick yourself".:-d


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Yeah, what's wrong with you Doc? You're going to miss out on the 3 or 4 Christmas sales to partners of dudes who literally sent them a link to one of your watches and said "Buy this for me because I won't like anything you pick yourself".:-d


What can I tell you?

Make sure they get their X-mas shopping done early, because "limited numbers" means the numbers are LIMITED.

You snooze, you lose.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

92gli said:


> Yeah, what's wrong with you Doc? You're going to miss out on the 3 or 4 Christmas sales to partners of dudes who literally sent them a link to one of your watches and said "Buy this for me because I won't like anything you pick yourself".:-d


What's wrong with that? That's how I ended up with a renegade on my wedding day! God only knows what Shinola she would have bought me otherwise. However, she came to me since she knows I am particularl about my watches. Good on her.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

They coexist in peace.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Bktaper said:


> They coexist in peace.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Dammit, now I feel bad. My wife learned early on to NOT buy me watches, at least not without getting an idea of what I wanted. It all spawned from a Bering watch on integrated black mesh bracelet my mom bought me. Utterly terrible, but I jave to wear it a couple times a year. Meanwhile the renegade is on the wrist almost weekly.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Before I fell down this watch wormhole my wife bought me a Kenneth Cole watch for our anniversary. I barely ever wear it now. I won't get rid of it though cuz that would unnecessarily hurt her feelings. I do enough stupid things on a daily basis to invoke her wrath so the Kenneth Cole staying in my collection won't kill me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Diameter of the bezel is 43.75mm. It overhangs the case slightly. I think the case is 1mm narrower, so 42.75mm.
> 
> 51mm lug-to-lug.


Nope. Soul brother too beaucoup.


----------



## fiskadoro (Sep 2, 2015)

Just a pic of the Antilles today


----------



## fiskadoro (Sep 2, 2015)

@docvail... Apologies for the question if it’s already been answered earlier in this thread, but does the newly released BOR bracelet also fit the Antilles above? Thanks.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



fiskadoro said:


> @docvail... Apologies for the question if it's already been answered earlier in this thread, but does the newly released BOR bracelet also fit the Antilles above? Thanks.


No but of course correct me if I'm wrong, the BoR only fits the subs. The Antilles should have it's own BoR. Albeit a different clasp. But the end links are not the same IIRC.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## fiskadoro (Sep 2, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



kpjimmy said:


> No but of course correct me if I'm wrong, the BoR only fits the subs. The Antilles should have it's own BoR. Albeit a different clasp. But the end links are not the same IIRC.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


OK, thanks for the response. Yep, that's my watch above already on the BOR, but I thought I'd ask just in case there's an opportunity to replace it in the future!


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

My new to me Odin arrived yesterday and I am very pleased.

I'm a sucker for the old military dive watches - 5517, Seamaster 300, Benrus, 6105, etc. The first "nice" watch I bought was the Omega 2264 (eBay). Beautiful watch that I really liked except for 2 things - the non-grippable bezel and the small crown. Being that mine was quartz, I could have lived with the small crown, but the bezel was a problem as I often use it as a timer.

Doc's Odin solves both of these problems and combines the best of the Seamasters - 2254/2264 dial and 300 hands. I also like that the case is not the same design as the Omegas - it gives the Odin its own personality.

I expect to keep this for a long time. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Nope. Soul brother too beaucoup.


FWIW, the lugs will be turned down, to hug the wrists, if it's the lug-to-lug that seems too long.

I don't want to open up a protracted debate about the "right" interval between case sizes when a brand wants to make two sizes of something. My personal take is that 4mm makes more sense than 2mm, especially if one of the sizes is 40mm.

I never understood why the CW Trident was 38mm or 43mm, when those were the two sizes for that one. I always thought they should have just done 40 and 44, or 38 and 42.

I think 40mm is a size that works for a lot of guys' wrists, even if you generally prefer a 38mm or 42mm. Most of the guys who've been asking me to make a bigger version of the Subs have asked for 43mm-44mm or more, so I didn't see the point in making a 42mm.

Plus, we were looking to scale up the basic proportions of an existing vintage case design, and wanted to keep the lug-width even (because WIS hate odd-number lug widths). Lug width is generally ~1/2 of case diameter, and diameter is usually ~85% of lug length, with a traditional case design.

The dimensions we have are just what we ended up with, more or less. We actually trimmed a little bit off the L2L.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



fiskadoro said:


> @docvail... Apologies for the question if it's already been answered earlier in this thread, but does the newly released BOR bracelet also fit the Antilles above? Thanks.





kpjimmy said:


> No but of course correct me if I'm wrong, the BoR only fits the subs. The Antilles should have it's own BoR. Albeit a different clasp. But the end links are not the same IIRC.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk





fiskadoro said:


> OK, thanks for the response. Yep, that's my watch above already on the BOR, but I thought I'd ask just in case there's an opportunity to replace it in the future!


The end-links are different, so those likely wouldn't be interchangeable/compatible between models.

But...I feel like we tried this already, and failed, but can't remember for sure, so I just asked my watchmaker Dan to see if the new BOR bracelets can be married to the end-links from the Antilles/Azores. He texted me back that he thinks he tried, and they didn't, but he'll double-check later.

We had this sort of thing before, with the Cerberus and Orthos. The H-link bracelets weren't the same. The Cerberus's had thinner links, connected by folded split pins, whereas the Orthos links were thicker, connected by screws. The end-links for one wouldn't fit the other's case.

But, you remove the end-links from both bracelets, and marry one's bracelet to the other's end-links, if you had the end-links already, and make one's bracelet work for either case that way.

Anyway, unless and until we hear otherwise, I'd assume they are not compatible, unless you want to experiment with doing a swap of links starting with the removable ones, assuming you just wanted to use one watch's clasp with the other model. I don't think the Sub's clasp would fit on the clasp-links of the Tropics' bracelet, so you'd have to find a way to swap links between them.

Assuming someone would want to do that, I suggested Dan look into it.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The end-links are different, so those likely wouldn't be interchangeable/compatible between models.
> 
> But...I feel like we tried this already, and failed, but can't remember for sure, so I just asked my watchmaker Dan to see if the new BOR bracelets can be married to the end-links from the Antilles/Azores. He texted me back that he thinks he tried, and they didn't, but he'll double-check later.
> 
> ...


So, I have a Doxa 1200T from that period where they thought they could get away with crappy faux-BOR bracelets where the BOR were all joined. I've been meaning to try an end-link swap with my NTH BOR to see if that would work. Haven't gotten around to it yet.


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

38/42 seems to make the most sense if starting from scratch 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Mr_Finer_Things said:


> 38/42 seems to make the most sense if starting from scratch
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Personally I would disagree. 40mm is a perfect size for myself and I believe a lot of people (if you like 38 or 42, you'll likely be ok with 40).

However, I know for a fact that I wouldn't buy one if I only could choose between 38 and 42. And I think a lot of others feel the same (see different threads of people always asking for sub 40mm cases).

I think doc is on the right path with the 40 and 43ish with just over 50ish L2L.

Seems like guys with 7.25 and above wrist size can fit a 43 really nicely. That's skx size (albeit the L2L on that I think is sub 50)

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Sign me up for 38 (or 36). [Ps, I know that's not happening]

I will say, though, that even with a small, 6" wrist, the subs are very comfortable. |>

Pps, Palmettoman, I think that was my Odin originally. Wear that guy in good health, bro. It was a big lift during a tough time for our fam'. Glad it's still in this thread. |> |>


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Mr_Finer_Things said:


> 38/42 seems to make the most sense if starting from scratch
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Depends on the L2L, and shape of the lugs. Short lug length watches like the SKX or the Aevig Huldra should be able to fit just about anyone's wrists, even though they are 42mm. My 40mm Diver's 65 on the other hand is 48mm, but it wears larger than that because the lugs are nearly flat. My 41mm Seiko Brightz cocktails are longer at 49mm, but wear smaller.

I like 40/47, 41/47-48, and 42/46-49. I think those are all very crowd pleasing sizes. A case diameter that starts with a "3", and you're automatically going to have some guys walking away, even if it's 39.5mm. 43mm+ watches really need 50mm+ L2L in order to look right, which generally means they are going to be for the larger wristed folks only.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Hanging around


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Depends on the L2L, and shape of the lugs. Short lug length watches like the SKX or the Aevig Huldra should be able to fit just about anyone's wrists, even though they are 42mm. My 40mm Diver's 65 on the other hand is 48mm, but it wears larger than that because the lugs are nearly flat. My 41mm Seiko Brightz cocktails are longer at 49mm, but wear smaller.
> 
> I like 40/47, 41/47-48, and 42/46-49. I think those are all very crowd pleasing sizes. A case diameter that starts with a "3", and you're automatically going to have some guys walking away, even if it's 39.5mm. 43mm+ watches really need 50mm+ L2L in order to look right, which generally means they are going to be for the larger wristed folks only.


The watch size aesthetic question... IMO every measurement is important.

L2L, thickness, dial size, bezel shape and size, lug shape/direction, caseback shape/curvature, dial color, size of dial indices, bracelet style and thickness, etc.

Even crown guards or crown guards to lug proportions matters, something I am not fond of on the Halios SF for example.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Me:



docvail said:


> ...I don't want to open up a protracted debate about the "right" interval between case sizes...


Y'all: Good idea! Let's have a debate!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Initially I thought the NTH subs at 40mm would be too large for me. And I actually had a second-hand Antilles which did nothing to dispel the thought -- even though it is 40mm, I thought it wore too large. But watches with rotating or wider fixed bezels always seem to wear smaller. 

Other strikes against the subs were the L2L, which I thought was at the outside of what I could pull off, and male endlinks, which conventional wisdom says further extends the L2L. 

Funny thing, though -- the subs fit my 7" wrist just fine. Really well, as a matter of fact. And don't look too large. There's some magic combo which includes the lack of thickness and effective curved lugs which just works for me. 

So while I might have wished for a 38mm version, glad I took a chance on the 40mm subs. Not even going to bother with the larger subs, but I'm not pining for something smaller, either.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Initially I thought the NTH subs at 40mm would be too large for me. And I actually had a second-hand Antilles which did nothing to dispel the thought -- even though it is 40mm, I thought it wore too large. But watches with rotating or wider fixed bezels always seem to wear smaller.
> 
> Other strikes against the subs were the L2L, which I thought was at the outside of what I could pull off, and male endlinks, which conventional wisdom says further extends the L2L.
> 
> ...


That's interesting you thought 40mm was going to be too small for a 7" wrist. I have the same size wrist and have had both an skx and a sbdc051.

Wondering if you started at the other end of the size spectrum and worked your way up.

I could def rock both of those but felt those were just slightly too big.

40mm I've always felt was the perfect size for my wrist.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

ryan850 said:


> That's interesting you thought 40mm was going to be too small for a 7" wrist. I have the same size wrist and have had both an skx and a sbdc051.
> 
> Wondering if you started at the other end of the size spectrum and worked your way up.
> 
> ...


Divers are strange. SKX fit me pretty well, I think due to a shorter L2L and the rotating bezel. In fact, now I also rock a 6105 homage, which clocks in at 44mm, but with a cushion case extending beyond even the bezel, a bezel, and 46mm L2L, it actually fits not too bad at all. Because of curved lugs and not too large L2L, I'm thinking I might pick up a Glycine Combat Sub at some point, but anything with L2L at 50mm+, is right out.

Still don't like thin-bezel watches at 40mm, and prefer 36-38mm range for those. For instance, current favorites in heavy rotation include a Glycine Combat 6 36mm which actually clocks in closer to 37mm+, and a SNK809/656 at 37-something mm, too.


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Initially I thought the NTH subs at 40mm would be too large for me. And I actually had a second-hand Antilles which did nothing to dispel the thought -- even though it is 40mm, I thought it wore too large. But watches with rotating or wider fixed bezels always seem to wear smaller.
> 
> Other strikes against the subs were the L2L, which I thought was at the outside of what I could pull off, and male endlinks, which conventional wisdom says further extends the L2L.
> 
> ...





ryan850 said:


> That's interesting you thought 40mm was going to be too small for a 7" wrist. I have the same size wrist and have had both an skx and a sbdc051.
> 
> Wondering if you started at the other end of the size spectrum and worked your way up.
> 
> ...





mconlonx said:


> Divers are strange. SKX fit me pretty well, I think due to a shorter L2L and the rotating bezel. In fact, now I also rock a 6105 homage, which clocks in at 44mm, but with a cushion case extending beyond even the bezel, a bezel, and 46mm L2L, it actually fits not too bad at all. Because of curved lugs and not too large L2L, I'm thinking I might pick up a Glycine Combat Sub at some point, but anything with L2L at 50mm+, is right out.
> 
> Still don't like thin-bezel watches at 40mm, and prefer 36-38mm range for those. For instance, current favorites in heavy rotation include a Glycine Combat 6 36mm which actually clocks in closer to 37mm+, and a SNK809/656 at 37-something mm, too.


I found the 44mm seiko turtles were OK as far as the L2L went but they always felt too large for me. I still struggle a bit with the 42mm mini turtle in terms of wearability, especially when compared to the NTH subs.......


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> I found the 44mm seiko turtles were OK as far as the L2L went but they always felt too large for me. I still struggle a bit with the 42mm mini turtle in terms of wearability, especially when compared to the NTH subs.......


Non WPAC (cover your ears)

Ever thought about getting something smaller? Seems like 40mm is where you like to stay max size

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

ryan850 said:


> Non WPAC (cover your ears)
> 
> Ever thought about getting something smaller? Seems like 40mm is where you like to stay max size
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Errrr, yes......

40mm NTH 









38mm Helson









40mm Oris 









......not that I've been through a [email protected]*k load of watches to arrive at this conclusion 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> Errrr, yes......
> 
> 40mm NTH
> 
> ...


Staying with larger for the beater or do you like having one slightly larger size?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

ryan850 said:


> Staying with larger for the beater or do you like having one slightly larger size?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


It's a beater, so I don't really care. I like the style and it's just about acceptable for me on the wrist. Why change it and go through the whole hateful sales process?


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> It's a beater, so I don't really care. I like the style and it's just about acceptable for me on the wrist. Why change it and go through the whole hateful sales process?


Very good points. I dislike the whole selling process.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

ryan850 said:


> Very good points. I dislike the whole selling process.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Oh don't get me started on THAT. Can't stand selling watches, it's such an ar£e.


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

A huge thank you to Ojibwaybob for lending me this watch 
The dial and the lume are just amazing


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> The end-links are different, so those likely wouldn't be interchangeable/compatible between models.
> 
> But...I feel like we tried this already, and failed, but can't remember for sure, so I just asked my watchmaker Dan to see if the new BOR bracelets can be married to the end-links from the Antilles/Azores. He texted me back that he thinks he tried, and they didn't, but he'll double-check later.
> 
> ...


Dan looked into it. The BORs for the Subs aren't in any way compatible with the BORs for the Tropics. Apparently none of the links are the same.

The new BORs can be fitted to the Tropics case, but it's not a good fit...


































Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> Me:
> 
> Y'all: Good idea! Let's have a debate!


I mean... what else shall we talk about?


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

It’s interesting to see everyone’s opinions on sizes. That being said as much as I’m moving away from 40mm I’m going to pick up an NTH sub purely based off of this thread and how passionate Doc is about his product. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

That's pretty much why I'll keep buying the subs. Luckily, my wrist is pretty flat but, at 6", it's small and really only has a 46-47mm span. But, Doc has earned that extra millimeter.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

A few 6" wrist-shots... |>

















Palmetto... lots of love in this one!









And, a DevilRay because, well, it's a DevilRay.


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

Twehttam, awesome pic! It's a great piece that'll be well taken care of...and used!

Got the bracelet sized today. I'm more of a strap guy, but it's pretty comfortable.

The lume is sick!!!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Doc has earned that extra millimeter.


Sometimes an extra mm is all you need...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Sometimes an extra mm is all you need...


TWSS!


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

On bracelet today!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Hmmmm... NTH BoR on a Monta??









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> docvail said:
> 
> 
> > Twehttam said:
> ...


I think she already said it.

Quotes inside of quotes inside of quotes.

I quotes 'em.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> Hmmmm... NTH BoR on a Monta??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting.

2 Q's:

1. How's the gap where the link meets the case, especially at the corners? The NTH's Subs' case actually has a 19.5mm radius between the lugs. The Monta's case is supposedly 38.5mm. If the links have a wider radius than the case, I'd think there'd be some gaps at the corners.

2. How do the end-links upper and lower surfaces align with the lugs' surfaces? It looks like there's a bit of a lip, with the link higher than the lugs, but I can't tell if that's just the Monta's different finishing there.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


> Interesting.
> 
> 2 Q's:
> 
> ...


1. There's a slight gap at the endlink corners, but is actually really well hidden from the polished chamfered edges. So you can't really tell any gaps

2. The endlinks actually are slightly raised above the lugs by 2mm... guesstimating so they do not align perfectly but we'll enough to be a cohesive look.









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

kpjimmy said:


> 1. There's a slight gap at the endlink corners, but is actually really well hidden from the polished chamfered edges. So you can't really tell any gaps
> 
> 2. The endlinks actually are slightly raised above the lugs by 2mm... guesstimating so they do not align perfectly but we'll enough to be a cohesive look.
> 
> ...


What about the vice-versa? Monta bracelet on NTH sub?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Peteagus said:


> What about the vice-versa? Monta bracelet on NTH sub?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry don't have the Monta bracelet. I do have it on rubber

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

Going old-school with my Cerberus.









Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

kpjimmy said:


> 1. There's a slight gap at the endlink corners, but is actually really well hidden from the polished chamfered edges. So you can't really tell any gaps
> 
> 2. The endlinks actually are slightly raised above the lugs by 2mm... guesstimating so they do not align perfectly but we'll enough to be a cohesive look.
> 
> ...


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

docvail said:


>


Ok tell me something I don't know

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ya know, if that marriage of endlink to lug were to be the CNC'd marriage of centerlink to edgelinks, we could have avoided so much typing on this thread.



docvail said:


>


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

My Ghost came in today. Was able to grab the last one that WatchGuage had. Really nice piece!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> My Ghost came in today. Was able to grab the last one that WatchGuage had. Really nice piece!
> 
> View attachment 14642315


Looks great, and glad you like it, but I think you must have had some miscommunication with WatchGauge, as I know he still has a few pieces left.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> Looks great, and glad you like it, but I think you must have had some miscommunication with WatchGauge, as I know he still has a few pieces left.


Oh, no worries. I was just going by the site when I purchased it. When I went back to the site about 2 minutes after buying it, it said SOLD OUT. I assumed I had purchased the last one. Oh well. At least there are more to be enjoyed!

And thanks for the compliment.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> Looks great, and glad you like it, but I think you must have had some miscommunication with WatchGauge, as I know he still has a few pieces left.


Oh, no worries. I was just going by the site when I purchased it. When I went back to the site about 2 minutes after buying it, it said SOLD OUT. I assumed I had purchased the last one. Oh well. At least there are more to be enjoyed!

And thanks for the compliment.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

Question for you guys: can scratches be buffed out of the NTH watch case? I was installing a bracelet today in one of my NTH watches, and slipped, scratching the non-crown side of the case in the process. Not the end of the world, but pissed me off nonetheless. Given the nice satin finish on the case, I’m guessing not but I thought I’d ask just in case. 


Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bloom said:


> Question for you guys: can scratches be buffed out of the NTH watch case? I was installing a bracelet today in one of my NTH watches, and slipped, scratching the non-crown side of the case in the process. Not the end of the world, but pissed me off nonetheless. Given the nice satin finish on the case, I'm guessing not but I thought I'd ask just in case.
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river...


Brushed surfaces = ScotchBrite pads are your best friend.

Polished surfaces = grab some Cape Cod cloths, and queue up the extended Director's cut of Titanic, Avatar, Patton, or The Return of the King. You're gonna be there a while, rubbing that scratch out.

If it's a REALLY deep scratch, you'll want to find a watchmaker who can have the case re-finished.

The good thing about stainless steel is that it's pretty hard, but the harder it is, the harder it is to remove scratches.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NTH website is now sold out of all watches.


----------



## Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

docvail said:


> Brushed surfaces = ScotchBrite pads are your best friend.
> 
> Polished surfaces = grab some Cape Cod cloths, and queue up the extended Director's cut of Titanic, Avatar, Patton, or The Return of the King. You're gonna be there a while, rubbing that scratch out.
> 
> ...


Thanks Doc. It's on my Barracuda and I'm not sure I want to chance making it worse. You can only really see the scratch in certain lighting, so it's probably not worth worrying about.

Sent from a van down by the river...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bloom said:


> Thanks Doc. It's on my Barracuda and I'm not sure I want to chance making it worse. You can only really see the scratch in certain lighting, so it's probably not worth worrying about.
> 
> Sent from a van down by the river...


If it's that faint, it shouldn't be too tough to get out.

If it's on the polished surface, Cape Cod cloths should work.

If it's on the brushed, but close enough to the polished that you might go over, I'd leave it alone. I'd rather live with a small, light scratch on a brushed surface than risk ruining the polished surface or the dividing line between them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

NTH Subs coming before mid-next year.

For January:

Bahia

Dolphin Ice

Nazario Sauro - might want to contact John @ Watch Gauge to get on the list for one. Limited supply, and apparently a good bit of demand.

Scorpene "Nomad" (12 hour bezel). More details to follow soon.

For March/April - 3 new(ish) models. Something gilty, something sandy, something syrupy. More details to follow later.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

Something sandy......sounds intriguing to me.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Scorpene "Nomad" (12 hour bezel). More details to follow soon.


Sweet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> NTH website is now sold out of all watches.


Sorry, I should have mentioned, there is still some stock available at our retailers, depending on what you're after.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

6 days ago:



docvail said:


> Guys, just a heads-up...
> 
> The NTH website is now sold out of all Subs, EXCEPT for the Barracuda Brown, the Näcken Vintage White, the Odin Black, and the Vanguard.
> 
> ...


5 days ago:



docvail said:


> Sometimes I read something I posted a little while later, and think it sounds rude, despite not being meant as such.
> 
> Let me try again, if only to ease my conscience...
> 
> ...





docvail said:


> 92gli said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, what's wrong with you Doc? You're going to miss out on the 3 or 4 Christmas sales to partners of dudes who literally sent them a link to one of your watches and said "Buy this for me because I won't like anything you pick yourself".:-d
> ...


15 hours ago...



docvail said:


> NTH website is now sold out of all watches.





docvail said:


> Sorry, I should have mentioned, there is still some stock available at our retailers, depending on what you're after.


Today:









There are still a few of the Nacken Modern Black available at our retailers, in case anyone was looking for one.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Definitely curious about the new spring 2020 models.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Y'all have to be patient regarding the 2020 Subs.

In the meantime, fans of NTH will be interested in the news that breaks at about the 5:20 mark in this video...


----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

^Oh hell yeah! Best of luck to Rusty and that quick glance was the answer to my prayers, nice microbrand sport watch! Can't wait and can't believe nth hasn't put a stamp on that platform yet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rusty FTW. Good luck!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Kinesis said:


> ^Oh hell yeah! Best of luck to Rusty and that quick glance was the answer to my prayers, nice microbrand sport watch! Can't wait and can't believe nth hasn't put a stamp on that platform yet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's the thing...I'm not going to make something I know Rusty wants to make. He's been working on this a while.

So...for those of you who've been haranguing me to make an <40mm non-diver sport watch, boom - Atticus. Similar design aesthetic (albeit, Rusty's driving this particular bus), same quality you'd expect from NTH, etc, etc, etc.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

TIN ROOF.


----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Kick-ass name and possible symbolic reference to boot, intended or not(Icarus).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Whoa! Atticus...


Sexy.




Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Looking forward to Rusty's pièce de résistance.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Let Rusty’s sub-40 rain down on me.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Y'all have to be patient regarding the 2020 Subs.
> 
> In the meantime, fans of NTH will be interested in the news that breaks at about the 5:20 mark in this video...


Interesting. I'm seeing a lot of Sinn 556 in that render, though with a more interesting case shape. Am I in the ballpark there?


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Y'all have to be patient regarding the 2020 Subs.
> 
> In the meantime, fans of NTH will be interested in the news that breaks at about the 5:20 mark in this video...


Nice! Starting your coaching tree doc.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Terrific reveal Rusty, go get it Mate........

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> Y'all have to be patient regarding the 2020 Subs.
> 
> In the meantime, fans of NTH will be interested in the news that breaks at about the 5:20 mark in this video...


Looks like a hybrid of Sinn 556 and Damasko DA36 (colored second hand). I hope he'd give the option to have it in different color (yellow). The case looks terrific, if there would be no-date version I might get one.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Already another watch on my radar for 2020. Drat. All good luck.to Rusty with the new venture.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Rusty's going to need his own thread soon


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I think that my attempt in humor has fallen flat so I'm deleting.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Tanjecterly said:


> New thread is fine as long as no posting while on the throne is allowed.


At least no photos...


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Deleting.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Tanjecterly said:


> New thread is fine as long as no posting pictures while on the throne is allowed.
> 
> EDIT: important clarification made.


I'm kinda looking forward to all photos and renders of his watches having an inside view of a pair of jeans as the background. Gotta keep the brand identity strong, ya know.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Y'all have to be patient regarding the 2020 Subs.
> 
> In the meantime, fans of NTH will be interested in the news that breaks at about the 5:20 mark in this video...


How to get people to stop bugging you about new releases of your watches? Get them to start bugging someone else about their new release...


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Tanjecterly said:


> Deleting.


Is this "A brave New World" Self editing movement going to catch on....??

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Would really be interested in the "something gilty". I had my eye on the previous gilt, but cant find one new or used. Oh well.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

I fail to see how this is inspired by Sinn or Damasko, sword hands existed long before both brands and the dial is the most simple layout possible that can be found on a million different vintage watches. 

Pretty sure Rusty dug quite a lot deeper than the forum queens for inspiration...


Atticus is a great name, slim case, drilled lugs!! and a clean dial, people will love it. 

Good luck!!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Would really be interested in the "something gilty". I had my eye on the previous gilt, but cant find one new or used. Oh well.


New, there are a handful available from our retailers in S.Korea, Hong Kong, and New Zealand.

Maybe 6 pieces, total.

Can't have your eye on something too long, my friend. Someone else probably has his eye on it, too.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> I fail to see how this is inspired by Sinn or Damasko, sword hands existed long before both brands and the dial is the most simple layout possible that can be found on a million different vintage watches.
> 
> Pretty sure Rusty dug quite a lot deeper than the forum queens for inspiration...
> 
> ...


I mean...I see the resemblance, too, FWIW.

I can't remember if Rusty told me what his inspiration was. We didn't spend a lot of time talking about it, because from what I've seen of the designs he's mocked up, most of them seem pretty clear.

I like the Sinn 556. I always felt it was a little small for me, and a little pricey for what it is, but I may have to try an Icarus to see if I can get used to the size. Gonna be hard to pass up at the price.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, I've got Dan assembling some DevilRays using some extra parts we had available.

These will be the last 4 pieces we'll have unless and until we do another big production.

There will be 2 Orange no-dates on orange natural rubber straps (no bracelet), and 2 Turquoise no-dates, one on the stock bracelet, and one on a turquoise natural rubber "almost-frane" from Obris Morgan.

Because 3 of them will be on straps, without the bracelet, we'll be selling those 3 for $600.

They should hit the site next week. If you're interested, the product pages on the website have a "notify me" feature built into them. Click that, give us your email, and you'll get a message when we add the inventory and make them available.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Oh, man, if only one of those devil rays was with date I'd totally buy one!*

*Not really. I mean I really, really love the style, but lack immediate funds to pick one up. Which doesn't stop me from pontificating online like I would totally buy one, so then when a manufacturer produces them to meet supposed demand, it's just not there.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> I mean...I see the resemblance, too, FWIW.
> 
> I can't remember if Rusty told me what his inspiration was. We didn't spend a lot of time talking about it, because from what I've seen of the designs he's mocked up, most of them seem pretty clear.
> 
> I like the Sinn 556. I always felt it was a little small for me, and a little pricey for what it is, but I may have to try an Icarus to see if I can get used to the size. Gonna be hard to pass up at the price.


When I started this watch "hobby" I remember seeing the 556 for 550€ (with bracelet). Wish I picked one up at the time!! It had to compete with the SARB and I didn't see the price diff benefits...

Those were the Seiko Monster under 200USD, Sarb 250-ish times. ... Not too long ago.

I once went to an AD wearing my Omega Dynamic 3rd Gen and trying the 556 and 104. (Flieger death match)

I enjoyed the 556, I wish the 12o'clock marker wasn't uber boring and they would add a no-date option (you'd think its easy for a company that mostly does 2-d dials...)

The 104 was a huge disappointment, especially because youtube and forums hyped it to heaven and I expected a lot. Watch case completely polished and sharp edges on the lugs, sharper than some kitchen knife factory edge... 
misaligned date window, etc.

I am a huge fan of Helmut Sinn, he was the passion and energy Sinn had. The 103 being my fav. design (black friction bezel model). To me its the German Speedy, I believe inspired by the Breguet Type XX.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Rusty has a thread. Now he just needs to pull up his damn pants and post some pics or something.
https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/atticus-catticus-out-bag-5075997.html#post50366641


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

600 clams for a turquoise Devil Ray is a fantastic deal. 

And hwa, that threat title is hilarious!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Tanjecterly said:


> Deleting.


Wait, they're gone? Now I gotta have one. When will you have jokes back in stock?


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Toonces said:


> 600 clams for a turquoise Devil Ray is a fantastic deal.
> 
> And hwa, that threat title is hilarious!


Freudian slip with the "threat", but then, it is HWA pulling that particular chain.....

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Mad dash Xmas shopping trip early morning to avoid the crowds and I'm shattered. Relaxing coffee whilst daughter is off at her dancing class......

.....NTH Näcken Modern Black looking fantastic today and comfortable as ever.









Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ragl said:


> Freudian slip with the "threat", but then, it is HWA pulling that particular chain.....
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


I have met Rusty. A quieter, equally capable version of doc. Doc is like the 007 villains. I think I could escape during his inevitable blowhard description of his dastardly plans. Rusty would just pop a cap and feed me to the gators before doc's first comma splice.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> I have met Rusty. A quieter, equally capable version of doc. Doc is like the 007 villains. I think I could escape during his inevitable blowhard description of his dastardly plans. Rusty would just pop a cap and feed me to the gators before doc's first comma splice.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Rusty is my Oddjob.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Rusty is my Oddjob.


He has a Bowler?


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Rusty vs Rhorya. Wouldn’t want to take bets. Cant meet two more good-natured, even-keeled fellas, both of whom seem built for more nefarious purposes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Doc quick question on the NTH subs spring bars; what's the diameter? Would measure them myself but calipers have stopped working......


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Doc quick question on the NTH subs spring bars; what's the diameter? Would measure them myself but calipers have stopped working......


Pretty sure they're all 1.8mm.

This is one of those things I guess I'm supposed to know but could never be arsed enough to bother. I only asked Dan to check recently because someone was having a hard time getting the right size replacement bars.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Pretty sure they're all 1.8mm.
> 
> This is one of those things I guess I'm supposed to know but could never be arsed enough to bother. I only asked Dan to check recently because someone was having a hard time getting the right size replacement bars.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Ta!


----------



## valuedcustomer (Dec 12, 2017)

NTH BOR FTW








Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> New, there are a handful available from our retailers in S.Korea, Hong Kong, and New Zealand.
> 
> Maybe 6 pieces, total.
> 
> Can't have your eye on something too long, my friend. Someone else probably has his eye on it, too.


I only know of the NTH website and WatchGuage. Would you mind sending me a PM of one of your other sellers that would have the GILT version?


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

WeirdGuy said:


> I only know of the NTH website and WatchGuage. Would you mind sending me a PM of one of your other sellers that would have the GILT version?


nthwatches.com

There's a link to each of the retailers. A few clicks should get you the info you're looking for. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

rpm1974 said:


> nthwatches.com
> 
> There's a link to each of the retailers. A few clicks should get you the info you're looking for.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks!


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm curious about the relative sales of date vs no-date of watches that come in both versions. I almost always prefer no-date for the better design aesthetics, but I'm guessing I'm in the minority on this ...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Avo said:


> I'm curious about the relative sales of date vs no-date of watches that come in both versions. I almost always prefer no-date for the better design aesthetics, but I'm guessing I'm in the minority on this ...


Arguably, the 6 o'clock date placement solves the design problem. I think the odin date is better than the no-date.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

I just got this curved RubberB look-alike from AliX for my Scorpéne which fits almost perfectly. Only wish it was a little bit thicker, the strap is about half milimeter recessed lower than the lugs wall.

The strap tapers down to 16mm thus I couldn't use the original 18mm NTH clasp. I tried to install it, but it looked ugly. Luckily I had a 16mm Miltat v-clasp laying around in my strap drawer that I can use. Very identical to the original NTH clasp in looks and quality, minus the logo.

The rubber itself is of high quality material in my opinion. It doesn't feel flimsy unlike typical cheap AliX silicone strap. It also doesn't attract dust and lint at all, so I believe it's of different material. Definitely a good deal for $15.


----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Shiny, shimmery,
splendid.









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Almost whenever it rains, this is my jam.



















Of my collection, and probably among all of the 50 or so watches I've cycled through, it's the one that best gives me the "good looking yet purpose built and no nonsense aquatic tool" feeling. Love it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

ck, I hear you. Between the Cw300 and this one....


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

MikeyT said:


> ck, I hear you. Between the Cw300 and this one....




Loved my Amphion too but I can be a flipper 



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That's a great combo on your Nacken, Ck.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Toonces said:


> That's a great combo on your Nacken, Ck.


Thanks, my friend. I think I'm going to try it out on an Admiralty Grey Phoenix G10 soon. It's been living on the NTH tropic strap for a while now.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I wore mine like that for a while and it looks fantastic. But...I find the bracelet so darn comfortable that I just rarely take it off anymore.

Maybe a month ago I took it off and tried a Boneto Cinturini rubber dive strap on it, and while it looked ok I just prefer the bracelet.

Be sure to post up some pics when you get in on the nato, though.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Avo said:


> I'm curious about the relative sales of date vs no-date of watches that come in both versions. I almost always prefer no-date for the better design aesthetics, but I'm guessing I'm in the minority on this ...


Very dependent on the watch. The 3-6-9-12 Oris Diver's 65 presently on my wrist has a beautifully integrated 6 o'clock date that basically disappears into the dial until you need it, so I don't feel like the no-date Topper version gains all that much. Some of Doc's watches that use a white date wheel at 6 o'clock in place of a lumed marker look fantastic because the positioning is perfect. A lot of watches try and fail to do this at 3 o'clock because the positioning is off, and they'd be better off just with a black wheel. At the other end of the spectrum, Ball has some of the worst looking date windows in the business. Their dials that have the date cutout at around 1 o'clock....why? SO many of their models would look so much better as no-dates.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I completely agree that it is possible to do a date window well, and that putting it at 6 is generally the best bet. doc does it well in all the sub designs, but in most I still prefer the no-date version. 

And I'm still curious about relative sales ...


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Avo said:


> I completely agree that it is possible to do a date window well, and that putting it at 6 is generally the best bet. doc does it well in all the sub designs, but in most I still prefer the no-date version.
> 
> And I'm still curious about relative sales ...


its possible somehow... Oris 65 does a great job. It works on many divers since you have thick lumed markers that are usually white and that goes well with the date windows.

I am a no-date guy, I enjoy the simplicity.

Worst offenders are white date windows on many Grand Seikos because GS makes imho the most beautiful dials in mass production run watches.

I have seen white date windows on champagne colored high end watches like PP and such and am surprised that they still keep doing it.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

This date window works for me.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I prefer a date complication. One of those things I need a reminder about.

At the 6 > 4.5 or 3 usually, although it depends on the overall dial design. I also generally prefer matched color wheels and some attempt to integrate the shape of the cutout into the overall dial design (e.g., roughly matched to shape of indices).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Nice watch, and nice date window. I like this one as well. although the 6:00 works well for many dials.


----------



## Digital_1 (Jan 6, 2014)

Latest addition to my collection. I absolutely love it


----------



## Digital_1 (Jan 6, 2014)

Latest addition to my collection. I absolutely love it.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Digital_1 said:


> Latest addition to my collection. I absolutely love it
> View attachment 14656291


Looks good. Way better than expected from the renders, tbh.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Can't do the 4:30 date. Blancpain's color matched dates are definitely less offensive than white date wheels on dark dials at 4:30, but I'd still rather it not be there at all.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

yankeexpress said:


>


That strap looks great, but IMO it clashes with the Swordfish dial.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MikeyT said:


> That strap looks great, but IMO it clashes with the Swordfish dial.


The way those Tropic[TM] straps are cut at the ends, and they way they sit at the lugs both look weird to me. Almost looks like a fitted strap mounted the wrong way.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Just as info. I'm selling my nth skipjack(date) and barracuda vintage black (date). If anyone interested, pls PM me


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

One of quite few watches that excites me enough to wear it more than 5 days in a row.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't know if we covered this exactly, but for some reason, an old FB post just popped up in my feed, from someone who fitted the bracelet from the Hodinkee Alpinist to the Barracuda, and vice-versa. 

Neither was a 100% "perfect" fit, but I think the SARB bracelet looked better on the Barracuda than the opposite, which I think makes sense, given the difference in their diameters. Actually kind of surprised someone could get a SARB end-link onto a Sub, unless their hollow, which for all I know, they may be.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I don't know if we covered this exactly, but for some reason, an old FB post just popped up in my feed, from someone who fitted the bracelet from the Hodinkee Alpinist to the Barracuda, and vice-versa.
> 
> Neither was a 100% "perfect" fit, but I think the SARB bracelet looked better on the Barracuda than the opposite, which I think makes sense, given the difference in their diameters. Actually kind of surprised someone could get a SARB end-link onto a Sub, unless their hollow, which for all I know, they may be.


Definitely not hollow. The 5 bracelets are folded steel junk with hollow links, and I can't remember if the stock SKX bracelet is or isn't. Everything Seiko makes above the $250+ level AFAIK all have solid end links.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

MikeyT said:


> Nice watch, and nice date window. I like this one as well. although the 6:00 works well for many dials.


This is the one that got away. Hoping that "something gilty" refers to this, or similar.


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

Hi Chris--
I looked back a couple of pages, and I didn't see an answer to a burning question I have --
Are you (or your retail partners) doing any Black Friday sales? NBD either way, but if there are discounts coming on Thursday or Friday, I would certainly be incentivized to make a purchase.


----------



## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Perdendosi said:


> Hi Chris--
> I looked back a couple of pages, and I didn't see an answer to a burning question I have --
> Are you (or your retail partners) doing any Black Friday sales? NBD either way, but if there are discounts coming on Thursday or Friday, I would certainly be incentivized to make a purchase.


No sales on NTH, ever. They're worth more than we charge.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Charge extra for having to work the holiday. $725 for any cheap bastard looking to squeeze you. That’ll show ‘em!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> No sales on NTH, ever. They're worth more than we charge.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


What? You sell watches for less than they cost to make?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Value is determined by what a buyer is willing to pay, not by the cost of production. I'm pretty sure that a Rembrandt painting probably has about $10 USD in materials, and then perhaps a couple months of labor. And they sell for quite a bit more than minimum wage.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Value is determined by what a buyer is willing to pay, not by the cost of production. I'm pretty sure that a Rembrandt painting probably has about $10 USD in materials, and then perhaps a couple months of labor. And they sell for quite a bit more than minimum wage.


Value is what you get price is what you pay(WB) . By either measure that statement is odd.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> Value is what you get price is what you pay(WB) . By either measure that statement is odd.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


It's quite obvious you don't like Doc, but your conclusions are incorrect. I'd be happy to compare education, background, and Mensa numbers with you. I'd also suggest that life would be more peaceful for all if you avoided argument just for the sake of argument.

Definition of value:
val·ue
/ˈvalyo͞o/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something.
"your support is of great value"
Similar:
merit
worth
usefulness
use
utility
practicality
advantage
desirability
benefit
gain
profit
good
service
help
helpfulness
assistance
effectiveness
efficacy
avail
importance
significance
point
sense
mileage
2.
a person's principles or standards of behavior; one's judgment of what is important in life.
"they internalize their parents' rules and values"
Similar:
principles
moral principles
ethics
moral code
morals
moral values
standards
moral standards
code of behavior
rules of conduct
standards of behavior
verb
*1.
estimate the monetary worth of (something).
"his estate was valued at $45,000"
Similar:
evaluate
assess
estimate
appraise
assay
rate
price*
put/set a price on
cost (out)
2.
consider (someone or something) to be important or beneficial; have a high opinion of.
"she had come to value her privacy and independence"
Similar:
appreciate
rate (highly)
esteem
hold in high esteem

We're all allowed to come to different conclusions, and make our own assessments. If I decided I didn't like a style of dress, type of food, and brand of watch, I'd not frequently enter into those places where they are held in higher regard than my own assessment, and argue with those who DO like them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> It's quite obvious you don't like Doc, but your conclusions are incorrect. I'd be happy to compare education, background, and Mensa numbers with you. I'd also suggest that life would be more peaceful for all if you avoided argument just for the sake of argument.
> 
> Definition of value:
> val·ue
> ...


Thanks.

I was tempted to just tell him to go eff himself.

That was way classier.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Well aren't we all in a festive mood today 

Happy almost Black Friday to the thread!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

JLS36 said:


> What? You sell watches for less than they cost to make?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Honestly, this is so disingenuous I assumed he was joking

A watch (from yesterday)


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Had to temporarily pack up the watch boxes. Against my nature, I just grabbed a few to tide me over without giving it much thought. I think these guys will cover most bases. As it turns out, the three on rolls are still riding foam so far. I'm kind of curious to see if I get a hankering for any particular watch when they're out of sight and mind.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

rscaletta said:


> Honestly, this is so disingenuous I assumed he was joking
> 
> A watch (from yesterday)


That looks cool. I would really like to see the applied indices Amphions in person.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

3WR said:


> Had to temporarily pack up the watch boxes. Against my nature, I just grabbed a few to tide me over without giving it much thought. I think these guys will cover most bases. As it turns out, the three on rolls are still riding foam so far. I'm kind of curious to see if I get a hankering for any particular watch when they're out of sight and mind.
> 
> View attachment 14661603


Thats defensible. Couple seikos, casio, skipjack. I assume the Casio is the dress watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

The G-shock is in foam to protect the others from it.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

hwa said:


> Thats defensible. Couple seikos, casio, skipjack. I assume the Casio is the dress watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bingo. That's why it occupies the most prominent spot. "It's a casio."






(Anyone know how to embed a video in a post so you can see the video and not just a link? Asking for a friend.)


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Double post


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> Value is what you get price is what you pay(WB) .
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Speaking of odd statements, is it me, or does this sentence make no sense?
Not being difficult. Maybe its just too early. I just cant make sense of the statement that "value is what you get price is what you pay".

Edit...ok, its me. Its missing either a semicolon, coma, or period in the middle. Value is what you get, price is what you pay.....my mind had a tough time with it without the hesitation between the two statements.

Nevermind....nothing to see here....just move on
...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> Speaking of odd statements, is it me, or does this sentence make no sense?
> Not being difficult. Maybe its just too early. I just cant make sense of the statement that "value is what you get price is what you pay".
> 
> Edit...ok, its me. Its missing either a semicolon, coma, or period in the middle. Value is what you get, price is what you pay.....my mind had a tough time with it without the hesitation between the two statements.
> ...


*****, Glen.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

hwa said:


> *****, Glen.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Eats shoots and leaves.

Ric


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ric Capucho said:


> Eats shoots and leaves.
> 
> Ric


Let's eat Grandma.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ric Capucho said:


> Eats shoots and leaves.
> 
> Ric


What is a Panda?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> What is a Panda?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Try to stay off-topic without going further off-topic, mmmmkay?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Wow, very interested to see what the other Atticus models look like. The Icarus isn't really my thing, but the Teleios (tele-ios? tea-lee-os?) is quite cool.


----------



## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Ric Capucho said:


> Eats shoots and leaves.
> 
> Ric


Could be worse.... could, eats, roots and leaves. Sigh I guess only the Aussies are going to get this...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Check it out, Tikuna hands (less the cool asymmetrical seconds hand). Looks like these are only medium crazy looking hands by that brand's standards.

Fun fact, one of their models has a lumed caseback. Makes a lumed crown seem downright sensible.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The wild thing on that Crepas is that the seconds hand is negative-lumed. I.e. the black spot does not glow, but the entire rest of the seconds hand does.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That Crepas is great. Love that dial color.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Check it out, Tikuna hands (less the cool asymmetrical seconds hand). Looks like these are only medium crazy looking hands by that brand's standards.
> 
> Fun fact, one of their models has a lumed caseback. Makes a lumed crown seem downright sensible.
> 
> View attachment 14664575


The white dial version is wild, I kinda dig it. What's amusing is that 1000M is pretty modest by Crepas standards.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)




----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)




----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

Wore the Odin all day, but was too busy to post.


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

Just switched to the Odin after wearing a Tuna all day. This leather strap doesn't make for the best-looking combo, but it sure is comfortable.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Palmettoman said:


> Just switched to the Odin after wearing a Tuna all day. This leather strap doesn't make for the best-looking combo, but it sure is comfortable. [/IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191203/c1fc2758c88e1216ca0e681d39de0d0e.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looks great. And tis the season to bust out the leather straps.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Palmettoman said:


> Just switched to the Odin after wearing a Tuna all day. This leather strap doesn't make for the best-looking combo, but it sure is comfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your Odin is keeping this thread alive.  Come over and guess Atticus pricing with everyone else!

(Looks good on that leather.)


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

3WR said:


> Your Odin is keeping this thread alive.  Come over and guess Atticus pricing with everyone else!
> 
> (Looks good on that leather.)


Is that why the thread has gone dead? Man, I totally missed the jump.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Coriolanus said:


> Is that why the thread has gone dead? Man, I totally missed the jump.


Yes. Doc's resistance to making fixed bezel watches was just a ploy to get rusty to take over all of his forum time. In a related note, Mrs. Vail is enjoying all of the recent attention. I also heard that doc built a new deck on his house over the last week.:-d


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

92gli said:


> Yes. Doc's resistance to making fixed bezel watches was just a ploy to get rusty to take over all of his forum time. In a related note, Mrs. Vail is enjoying all of the recent attention. I also heard that doc built a new deck on his house over the last week.:-d


Pffft!

If only I was that handy. I strutted like a peacock after painting my new office. Just about anything involving power tools is outside my wheelhouse.

Uhm....here's what's going on...I've been busy, both with business-stuff, but also family-stuff.

It was Thanksgiving last week, I was away for 3-4 days. Then on Saturday, I attended my 30-year high-school reunion, got pretty drunk, and spent the entire next day nursing a hangover, while simultaneously trying to address some family drama which started over the holiday (not fun stuff, I can assure you), and watch the Eagles piss away a healthy early-game lead to lose to the 2-9 Miami Dolphins.

Monday afternoon, my dog, who's had some health issues for a few years, and seems worse lately, appeared to have a seizure. As it was late in the day, I had to take her to an emergency clinic, where my son and I sat for three hours while they took x-rays and did other diagnostics.

Turns out she's got megaesophagus - an abnormally enlarged esophagus - which has been causing her to hack up food, some of which she must have then inhaled, because it seems to have gotten into her lungs, causing severe pneumonia.

Now she's hacking up both food from her stomach, and mucus from her lungs, and the lack of oxygen to her brain has been causing her to faint. So it's not seizures she's been having, just her being weak and passing out. But we've got a few things to address with her health - gotta cure that pneumonia first, then see how to cure, or worse case, just manage the megaesophagus.

Also, my older son is learning to drive, so I've been taking him out to practice, while also chauffeuring him to his new job. Until recently, my wife had been working part-time, very close to home, and handling most of the household stuff. But earlier this year she got a new job, full-time, which involves a lot of travel, so I've had to pick up a lot of the parental work she used to do because she had time and I mostly didn't.

In addition to trying to run my business, I've been working to help Rusty launch his. Atticus is a project that's been in the works for most of the year, but it's been all-hands-on-deck the last month. I haven't abandoned this thread. There hasn't been much to post, but there are things in the works.

We'll soon be revealing the final version of the forthcoming Scorpene Nomad (12 hour bezel).

Guys who hang out in the BSHT thread know we learned my vendor had 10 additional Carolina dials laying around, so we've got those being assembled for delivery soon.

Because we want to increase the amount of work we're doing in the USA, I've been coordinating between my vendor and watchmaker Dan to get him set up to start doing final assembly and testing here. It's a process to making that happen.

Meanwhile, just because Rusty is launching Atticus, that doesn't mean he's done supporting NTH. I've been cracking the whip to get him to gin up the 3D package of images and animations for some of the stuff we've got in the works for spring.

Here and there, when time allows, I get to eat, sleep, take a $hlt, do some bookkeeping, watch a football game, answer a few emails (probably a few dozen a day), etc, etc, etc.

Build a deck? Ain't nobody got time fo'dat.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> We'll soon be revealing the final version of the forthcoming Scorpene Nomad (12 hour bezel).


Yeah, buddy.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> View attachment 14677075
> 
> 
> Yeah, buddy.


WOT > simply telling people to STFU and give me the time needed to do all the things.

Not for nothing, but y'all are welcome to go find the brand owner who engages as much as I do, is as transparent as I am, etc.

On what planet does it make sense to pressure me for MORE of that stuff?

I'm doing my best over here, to manage all that needs managed, gentlemen. If I need to divert my attention elsewhere sometimes, trust me, that's where my attention is needed.

I don't think I'll ever look back and say, "I wish I'd posted to the forum more, rather than teaching my son to drive, protecting my kids, helping Rusty, and taking care of our family dog."


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> y'all are welcome


Thank you!


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> WOT > simply telling people to STFU and give me the time needed to do all the things.
> 
> Not for nothing, but y'all are welcome to go find the brand owner who engages as much as I do, is as transparent as I am, etc.
> 
> ...


Love the passion doc! Preach it!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> ...Monday afternoon, my dog, who's had some health issues for a few years, and seems worse lately, appeared to have a seizure...


Aww, man. I'm really sorry to read this, Doc.



> Also, my older son is learning to drive, so I've been taking him out to practice...


Yeah, I'm not sure I'm looking forward to this myself... I will consider it a rite of passage. 



> In addition to trying to run my business, I've been working to help Rusty launch his. Atticus is a project that's been in the works for most of the year, but it's been all-hands-on-deck the last month...


I'm still really excited about this one and am trying not to be nit-picky... I trust Rusty. |>



> Guys who hang out in the BSHT thread know we learned my vendor had 10 additional Carolina dials laying around, so we've got those being assembled for delivery soon.


Thank you.



> Because we want to increase the amount of work we're doing in the USA, I've been coordinating between my vendor and watchmaker Dan to get him set up to start doing final assembly and testing here. It's a process to making that happen.


Very cool, Doc.

And, lastly, an overall "thank you". Being able to engage with a brand-owner like this is awesome.


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Doc, sorry to hear about your dog. People without 'em won't understand how they become a member of the family. They are in many ways just like a child.

My lab is getting up there (10yrs) and is starting to have some health problems. Nothing serious, just age-related. While he doesn't have megaesophagus, he does have megastomachagus. That dang dog will eat anything...even Ivory soap!

But seriously, and I truly mean this...

Since you need your deck built, I know a really good general contractor. 'Course you'd have to move to FL for me to do it.  Keep me in watches, I'll keep you in decks!!!  

And my watch again! Switched out the Martu for horween this am. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Palmettoman said:


> Doc, sorry to hear about your dog. People without 'em won't understand how they become a member of the family. They are in many ways just like a child.
> 
> My lab is getting up there (10yrs) and is starting to have some health problems. Nothing serious, just age-related. While he doesn't have megaesophagus, he does have megastomachagus. That dang dog will eat anything...even Ivory soap!
> 
> ...


Yep. All them feels...

When my son came running into my office to get me, and I came to see what was going on with the dog, I thought she might be dying that night. She's had an auto-immune condition for a few years, she's 9, and Boxers don't live that long, so it seemed like maybe it was her time.

I've had to put two dogs down on my own, the first when I was just 18. My older son is 17 now, so in the car on the way home, when he asked me why I made sure to wrap her in a blanket, and put her in the back of my wife's SUV, I explained what happens when they die (literal $hlt comes out all of a sudden - this happened with a dog I picked up on the side of the road, after he'd been hit, and the SOB who hit him never stopped), but also took the opportunity to try to make him understand - she's not going to live a whole lot longer, and at some point, he'll need to ready himself not just for the day we have to put her down, but for the day when he has to man up and put one down on his own.

The last couple days, I've had her in the office with me, so I could keep an eye on her while the rest of the family is out of the house. It seems like not that long ago, she'd have been bouncing off the walls trying to get out, but now, she just lays in her bed and chills. It's heart-breaking to see how old she's been acting recently.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


>


Terrific!! that really is an outstanding set-up to ensure total QA/QC, it certainly imparts a great deal of confidence with what you are doing Doc, to make NTH watch ownership just that bit more special.

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Ragl said:


> Terrific!! that really is an outstanding set-up to ensure total QA/QC, it certainly imparts a great deal of confidence with what you are doing Doc, to make NTH watch ownership just that bit more special.
> 
> Cheerz,
> 
> Alan


Cheers, Alan.

I was extremely fortunate to meet Dan, who has a unique mix of skills, attitude, proximity to me, and available time. I wish we could have done that video earlier, but that workshop is new. Dan's prior space wouldn't have made for as good a video.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Three DevilRays just added to the site, for anyone who's been looking for one.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> Yep. All them feels...


Hard to "like" this post, but I'm with you. We're still feeling it over here.



docvail said:


> Cheers, Alan.
> 
> I was extremely fortunate to meet Dan, who has a unique mix of skills, attitude, proximity to me, and available time. I wish we could have done that video earlier, but that workshop is new. Dan's prior space wouldn't have made for as good a video.


Awesome video. Loved the BTS!



docvail said:


> Three DevilRays just added to the site, for anyone who's been looking for one.


Tempting - especially the lower price w/o bracelet. But, I have an invoice from you coming...

-Edit for a DR pic-


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Hard to "like" this post, but I'm with you. We're still feeling it over here.
> 
> Awesome video. Loved the BTS!
> 
> ...


Damn...that's just a badass looking watch right there.

Might need to get that orange no-date prototype back from Dan...


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That was a great video, Doc. I enjoyed the look behind the scenes.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Toonces said:


> That was a great video, Doc. I enjoyed the look behind the scenes.


I felt like the guy in the Liberty-Biberty commercial a few times.

"Is it okay if I riff?"


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> I felt like the guy in the Liberty-Biberty commercial a few times.
> 
> "Is it okay if I riff?"


Would have been better if you came out of the water.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Yep. All them feels...
> 
> The last couple days, I've had her in the office with me, so I could keep an eye on her while the rest of the family is out of the house. It seems like not that long ago, she'd have been bouncing off the walls trying to get out, but now, she just lays in her bed and chills. It's heart-breaking to see how old she's been acting recently.


I know how it is. We had cats growing up, and the oldest lived to 19 which is ancient for a cat. She was an adopted stray, and if you tried to pick her up, she'd make you pay for it. The last few years, she was too tired for that and would just sort of passively accept it. Very sad.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Office guard dog...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

Coriolanus said:


> Is that why the thread has gone dead? Man, I totally missed the jump.


to paraphrase a quote...rumors of thread demise have been greatly exaggerated

b-)









































tikuna...one of many nth designs.

and soon, my friends. new models. 
stay in the thread. 
stay the course.
keep supporting. 
thin, sleek, well made, and way more value than the sum of parts on the wrist.

nth watches.
atticus watches.
2020.

soon, my friends.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

The Watcher said:


> soon, my friends.


Soon oh soon the light
Pass within and soothe the endless night
And wait here for you
Our reason to be here

Soon oh soon the time
All we move to gain will reach and calm
Our heart is open
Our reason to be here

Long ago, set into rhyme
Soon oh soon the light
Ours to shape for all time, ours the right
The sun will lead us
Our reason to be here


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

The Watcher said:


> View attachment 14680091
> 
> 
> .


Killer photo.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)




----------



## Whisky Beer Bob (Jan 29, 2017)

Sorry to hear about your Furry Family member.

I had to put our Dog down 3 1/2 months ago and not a day goes by that I don't think about her or look for her on the couch in the morning. Take care of the Fam, we all appreciate what you do here, besides the NTH thing.

Have a Great Weekend Everyone!!!!









Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## BigEd (Jul 4, 2014)

Avo said:


> Soon oh soon the light
> Pass within and soothe the endless night
> And wait here for you
> Our reason to be here
> ...


"YES" best band ever in my opinion


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ojibway Bob said:


> Sorry to hear about your Furry Family member.
> 
> I had to put our Dog down 3 1/2 months ago and not a day goes by that I don't think about her or look for her on the couch in the morning. Take care of the Fam, we all appreciate what you do here, besides the NTH thing.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Shane.

Our little girl's been improving over the course of the week. We've got her on 5-6 different meds - something to treat the pneumonia, the Rx for her long-term condition, something to soothe her esophagus, an antacid, and at least one other. I lost track, but, she seems to be getting better.

All that said, she's 9, and Boxers typically only live 10-12 years, so we're just hoping we can get her healthy again, and try to make her last few years relatively pain-free.

I had to put our last dog down before his time (long story). I swore I'd never do that again.

As for what I do here - I think being here is good for my business. I wouldn't be here otherwise. Most often, being here is enjoyable. I try to give back to the community when I can, and give customers some insight into who they're buying from, for better or worse. But being here, and engaging as much as I do, has a down side.

Inevitably, someone takes issue with something I've said, rightly or wrongly, or resents me for some reason, or is jealous, and wants to twist my words around, or take something out of context, etc. Every brand has haters and trolls, but the more you engage, and the more your business grows, the more haters and trolls you encounter.

It's part of the package. I try to ignore the BS, and maximize the good vibes as much as I can. I can't control what anyone else says or does, only what I say and do.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

The Watcher said:


> View attachment 14680111


Middle picture there... is that stingray material? Killer strap for that watch. I think I'm also going to have to pick up one of those marginally fitted rubber straps...

While I'm thrilled with the Atticus offerings, I'm still on edge for news about the Scorpene Nomad release. Renders, maybe...? Is Doc just trying hard not to steal Rusty's thunder?

Woman I moved in with came with two pets, a big old black lab and a cat with attitude. Duncan the lab was already incontinent, but still enjoyed life. Finally, his hind legs gave out and we had to put him down. Our vet does housecalls for such events, so it was as nice as it could be... but still tragic. He left this world on his own bed, comforted by Elizabeth to the end.

Recent scare with Johnny Hotcakes the cat, went missing for a couple weeks. We had basically written him off, and started grieving, but then a phone call from a no-kill shelter way not local -- vet scanned him for a chip when someone wanted to adopt and we got that miraculous phone call all lost pet owners hope for...


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Check the NTH Instagram update, bro. |>


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Twehttam said:


> Check the NTH Instagram update, bro. |>


???

I see Bob Ross painting an Atticus...?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> ???
> 
> I see Bob Ross painting an Atticus...?


Nomad.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Twehttam said:


> Check the NTH Instagram update, bro. |>


???

I see Bob Ross painting an Atticus...?

Ah -- new animation up on FB...

Sweet.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Yep.






Coming in January. Limited availability. Get on a retailer's wait list now. No idea how many or if there'll be any available direct from NTH.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

BigEd said:


> "YES" best band ever in my opinion


And "Close to the Edge" is the single best piece of music ever written. Word.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Yep.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks great but I think you need to regulate it. I don't have a timegrapher but that seems to be running really fast.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

I honestly prefer it with the dive bezel, it gives a more coherent overall look with the marker-heavy dial, imo. Glad I managed to snag one.

Doc, will you also be producing regular Scorpène along with the Nomad?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Get on a retailer's wait list now.


Done.



wtma said:


> I honestly prefer it with the dive bezel, it gives a more coherent overall look with the marker-heavy dial, imo. Glad I managed to snag one.


I don't disagree about the overall look, probably would have preferred with the dots, like in the initial alternate sketch, but way psyched to see the 12hr bezel version and will be buying one. I sold a Scorpene with the dive bezel, no regerts.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wtma said:


> I honestly prefer it with the dive bezel, it gives a more coherent overall look with the marker-heavy dial, imo. Glad I managed to snag one.
> 
> Doc, will you also be producing regular Scorpène along with the Nomad?


No time soon, if we ever do.

We produced 50 of the regular Scorpène Black this year, and I think 75-100 of the Scorpène Blue since last year. We'll make 50 of the Nomad for January (25 date, 25 no-date).

I think that's enough for the time being, and we should focus on other things for the near future.

Like I said, anyone who wants one should get on a retailer's wait list, now.

Along with the Nomad, we're going to have more of the Dolphin Ice, and the Bahia for January. Again, after that, I think we'll focus on other designs, and that may be the last we see of those two.

We've got three semi-new designs planned for March/April, plus we'll be bringing back a 2-3 of people's favorites soon after.

That's the last of the 40mm NTH Subs cases we have available from this year's big round of production. We've got some other stuff we're looking to get into the production queue, and there's a limit to how much we production we can manage, so it may be a while before there are more 40mm Subs. Probably not until the second half of next year, at the soonest.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Done.
> 
> I don't disagree about the overall look, probably would have preferred with the dots, like in the initial alternate sketch, but way psyched to see the 12hr bezel version and will be buying one. I sold a Scorpene with the dive bezel, no regerts.


Regerts?

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## rpm1974 (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Regerts?
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Those are like ragrets but different. Both are similar to regrets, but not precisely.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Regerts?


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

I have a 9 year old boxer mix that went from being a super star athlete 6 months ago to an old lady now. We suspect a stroke but she is still happy and pain free. It’s tough to watch though. 
In other news, the Scorpene Nomad looks sexy. Winner winner, Chicken dinner.


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

Odin gettin' strappy









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Palmettoman said:


> Odin gettin' strappy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Olive green NATO on a black watch is always a good combo, it seems.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> Thanks, Shane.
> 
> Our little girl's been improving over the course of the week. We've got her on 5-6 different meds - something to treat the pneumonia, the Rx for her long-term condition, something to soothe her esophagus, an antacid, and at least one other. I lost track, but, she seems to be getting better.
> 
> ...


Then again, this is part of the package, too...









Once upon a time, I made a literal (well, figurative) $hlt-ton of money selling insurance.

Not once did anyone ever email me out of the blue, or go out of of their way in the slightest, to tell me how happy they were with the insurance they got from me.

"Hi Chris - I just wanted to say, I love this insurance you sold me. It really is amazing insurance for the price. Keep doing what you're doing..."

Never happened.

For all the insanity that comes with running a business like this (and oh, Boy, is there insanity), it does have its perks.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wow, I just saw Josef post in another group about the other watch he got today. It's from a brand that's been a bit of an internet darling since launching not too long ago.

It costs $50 more than the NTH Subs, but with lower specs, lower-cost components, and apparently, lower quality, despite the online taste-makers fairly gushing with praise for it.

This is EXACTLY what I needed to see at the end of a long week. 

Ahma take my wife out for date night, have some dinner and drinks, go see our town's Christmas tree lighting, and get my weekend started.

Y'all go get your weekends on. I hope they're enjoyable. 

I'm out. 

PEACE!


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Yep.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


12H bezel? For amateurs... remember the human arm can strap up to 5 watches.

This is how the real Mr Bond manages his timezones


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> Middle picture there... is that stingray material? Killer strap for that watch. I think I'm also going to have to pick up one of those marginally fitted rubber straps...


- black stingray.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> No time soon, if we ever do.
> 
> We produced 50 of the regular Scorpène Black this year, and I think 75-100 of the Scorpène Blue since last year. We'll make 50 of the Nomad for January (25 date, 25 no-date).
> 
> ...


Crap.

I forgot - the Nazario Sauro (full lume white dial) is making a return in January, too.

Very limited numbers there, just 25 pieces. Anyone who wants one should run, not walk to get on Watch Gauge's wait list.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Allergic to IG....What does an NTH Nomad look like?

Nevermind, saw the youtube video. Will there be a blue version?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Allergic to IG....What does an NTH Nomad look like?
> 
> Nevermind, saw the youtube video. Will there be a blue version?


No current plans, but maybe at some point in the future.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Fun fact, if you Google image search "NTH Nomad" the first thing that comes up isn't a watch. You sportin' these, Doc?


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Fun fact, if you Google image search "NTH Nomad" the first thing that comes up isn't a watch. You sportin' these, Doc?
> 
> View attachment 14683773


Branded underpants seems more like an Atticus thing. Anything in the bathroom / toilet space seems like a more natural fit for that brand.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> Fun fact, if you Google image search "NTH Nomad" the first thing that comes up isn't a watch. You sportin' these, Doc?
> 
> View attachment 14683773


"Starts to Google NTH Commando"

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Hello Chris (Doc),

Big fan of your NTH Sub line. Have 3 in my collection with another one on the way.

Have a few questions about any ideas and future design/suggestions about your subs line:

- have you ever looked into another end link design (ie like Ginault’s OR end link)?..maybe a more ‘angular’ design?
- Have you looked into a glide lock system or adjustable tool-less clasp?
- Any plans on resurrecting old designs like the Catalina, Carolina, Original Amphion, Oberon, etc?
- Do you release old designs based on previous sales?
- Any plans to put the date window at the 3 o’clock?
- Have you ever considered a cyclops (and consequently a flat crystal)?
- Do you take any custom requests (even at a higher price)? (Ie Nazario Ghost with Nazario Sauro bezel insert or something like that)
- Any plans to release any California dials with date complication?
- Any plans for a Black Barracuda Dial with applied indexes?
- Have you considered using other movements like a Sellita or Seiko? Do you choose movements based on thinness of your case (besides price point and serviceability )?

THX for taking a few minutes to answer there questions and have a gr8 weekend.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Popcorn. I love popcorn. 

I swear to god I don’t know who that guy is, and I didn’t put him up to it. 

But bless him for what is sure to come!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Would be even more fun if they were suggestions rather than questions 😄


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok...did I miss something?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

jerseydan31 said:


> Ok...did I miss something?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes....but you will understand soon enough!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

jerseydan31 said:


> Ok...did I miss something?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Somewhere buried in this bazillion page thread is a LOT of discussion about Doc's design philosophy. Short version: He'll do what he does, and there's not any use in nudging him one way or another.

Typically following a post like yours (no offense, there are a lot of them from the unsuspecting), a WoT (wall of text) will appear saying what I just said, but longer...


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

jerseydan31 said:


> Hello Chris (Doc),
> 
> Big fan of your NTH Sub line. Have 3 in my collection with another one on the way.
> 
> ...


The short, short version - has he considered? Yes. Will he do it? No. If you want one NTH watch with a different NTH watch bezel on it, buy two, pull the movements/dials/hands, and swap them. If you like that second watch with the first watch's bezel on it, win-win.

The 9015 is both thinner than the equivalent ETA-2824 and its clones, and more reliable, which is why Doc uses them. He's used STP before but doesn't use them anymore, and doesn't like Sellita. Seiko (annoyingly for us Seiko fans) still doesn't have anything comparable to the 9015. The NH35 has a 3hz beat rate and is less accurate. The NE15 has somewhat better accuracy than the NH35 and a longer PR than the 9015, but you've still got that 3Hz rate which a lot of people don't like, and associate with "cheap" watches, even though there are A. Lange movements that are 3Hz. The NE15 is also more expensive than the 9015.

People have been begging Seiko for a 4Hz replacement for the 6R15 for a LONG time, and they finally released the 6R35, which is basically the same thing but with a longer power reserve, which no one asked for. Their only 3-hand, 4Hz movements (below the GS range) remain the 6L35 ($$$$) and the 8L35 ($$$$$$$).


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

This reminds me of watching A Quiet Place.

We made a noise. Did they hear?!


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Will there be a no date nomad?


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



PixlPutterMan said:


> Will there be a no date nomad?


There will be 25 date Nomads and 25 no-date.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jerseydan31 said:


> Hello Chris (Doc),
> 
> Big fan of your NTH Sub line. Have 3 in my collection with another one on the way.
> 
> ...


No.

No.

No comment.

Sometimes.

No.

No.

Hell no.

No.

No.

Yes, yes/sort of.

In precisely that order.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> No.
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


That moment when you realize the movie sucks and the popcorn is stale.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Well, my Ghost Rider came home from the spa yesterday. It now has a new crystal to replace the old cracked one. A big thanks to Doc and his watchmaker Dan. They aren't responsible for the lint, however. That's all on me, sorta.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> That moment when you realize the movie sucks and the popcorn is stale.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> No.
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


Well said. 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Wait, whuuuuu?!?!? 

If I'm lining these Q's and A's up properly, that was a "yes/yes sort of" to the question about a black Barracuda with applied indices. 

Reflexively reached for my wallet when I realized this.

Speaking of "reflexively", I like how everyone was bracing for things to go all "Lord of the Flies" in here, but instead we actually got some potentially great news.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

When I line them up, I see a "no" there. But dream on.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

So we're going to debate which answers line up to what?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

This bezel...its a transformer in natural light it looks matte and almost ceramic. In indoor lights it appears to have a gloss finish. I love when it looks matte









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

In order to end debate...

- have you ever looked into another end link design (ie like Ginault’s OR end link)?..maybe a more ‘angular’ design?

No.

- Have you looked into a glide lock system or adjustable tool-less clasp?

No.

- Any plans on resurrecting old designs like the Catalina, Carolina, Original Amphion, Oberon, etc?

No comment.

- Do you release old designs based on previous sales?

Sometimes.

- Any plans to put the date window at the 3 o’clock?

No.

- Have you ever considered a cyclops (and consequently a flat crystal)?

No.

- Do you take any custom requests (even at a higher price)? (Ie Nazario Ghost with Nazario Sauro bezel insert or something like that)

Hell no.

- Any plans to release any California dials with date complication?

No plans.

- Any plans for a Black Barracuda Dial with applied indexes?

No.

- Have you considered using other movements like a Sellita or Seiko? Do you choose movements based on thinness of your case (besides price point and serviceability )?

Yes, yes/sort of.




Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> In order to end debate...
> 
> - have you ever looked into another end link design (ie like Ginault's OR end link)?..maybe a more 'angular' design?
> 
> ...


Thx for chiming in Doc. That's all I was looking for!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> In order to end debate...
> 
> - have you ever looked into another end link design (ie like Ginault's OR end link)?..maybe a more 'angular' design?
> 
> ...


What would it take to change the opinion on the clasp?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Just a little more Tikuna love.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

I









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

jerseydan31 said:


> I
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice commando! I'd buy one, but i can't believe/can't stand that the bezel is not bidirectional. I mean, what kind of monster makes unidirectional 12 hour bezels?

Just kidding. I only don't have one because I can't have every shiny thing that I think I love. Right? Right!? Somebody tell me that's right.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> What would it take to change the opinion on the clasp?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I'm guessing about 300 of your closest friends!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For those who need more explanation...

*- have you ever looked into another end link design (ie like Ginault's OR end link)?*

I like our end-link design. I'm definitely not doing a "female" end-link, and not really keen on doing anything that will lead to people saying it's "like Ginault".

Just kill me now.

*..maybe a more 'angular' design?*

No idea what 'angular' means with regards to end-links, but, see above, I like what we have.

Maybe some future iteration will have the end-links slightly recessed below the lugs, because apparently some people like that, but maybe not, because I'm not sure it's worth dealing with the people who don't like it asking why we changed the end-link.

*- Have you looked into a glide lock system or adjustable tool-less clasp?*

As far as I know, Rolex has a patent on glidelock. Anyone here want to pay my lawyer bills if Rolex sues me for patent infringement?

Adjustable clasps add cost, and complexity. So you get a more expensive watch which is also more prone to have a part failure.

Maybe for the $650-$675 we charge, we're doing it right, and you don't really want to pay more than that because we keep adding features most people don't really want badly enough to pay for them.

How much is that clasp worth to you? $50-$100 more? What about CNC-machined end-links? Another $50-$100?

At what point has the product achieved the right balance of features for the price? I think we've achieved it already. There's nothing we can do to improve quality or add features without adding cost at this point. We're already dealing with people saying we're charging too much for a watch with "only" a Miyota inside.

How do I know most people don't really want them? Because the single most common complaint on the NTH Tropics and the NTH DevilRay was about the ratcheting expansion clasp, and that was a GOOD example of one.

Just my personal view of the subject. I like the clasp we had on the Subs originally. It performed its task well. But people complained about it, so we got a better one.

I like the new clasp we have now. People seem to like it better, even though we've had as many or more complaints about it as compared to the previous iteration.

I'm not going on another personal quest to improve something we just improved, when I feel that it's already "right" for the application, which is how I feel about it.

*- Any plans on resurrecting old designs like the Catalina, Carolina, Original Amphion, Oberon, etc?*

Catalina - no.

Carolina - yes, 10 more coming soon, and every one is already spoken for. Please don't email me to ask about getting on the wait list for one. I'm not keeping any lists. @lifetrekker has a list of the BSHT guys who want them. Trust me, they're spoken for, and there's a list of guys waiting in the wings in case one of the first 10 drops off.

Amphion & Oberon - stay tuned. New Amphion and Oberon versions are in the works.

*- Do you release old designs based on previous sales?*

I read tea leaves. Past sales history are in the leaves, along with online buzz, gut feelings, personal observations, and what my dog thinks.

I like to mix things up, keep people guessing, and keep things fresh. If we have 4-6 releases per year, there will be a mix of new designs and familiar faces, but only the fastest-selling models get made in back-to-back productions.

If you see a watch you like, available now, you shouldn't think about it too long. With most brands, you can take 6 months to a year. With NTH, you might get a week, you might get a month. Here and there, we'll end up with one or two pieces of something we made 50 of sitting around for months and months. But, eventually, they all sell out, and when that happens, we likely won't make more again any time soon.

*- Any plans to put the date window at the 3 o'clock?*

No plans.

People seem to despise date windows at 3, 4, ~4:05, 4:30, and ~4:33.

The only date window people here seem not to despise is the six o'clock, until they hit 40, their vision starts to go, and they either begin to appreciate the better legibility of the 3-o'clock window, or they just stop giving a f**k about the date any more, because they can't read it anyway, or they're just too old to care.

Those are my people. I too do not give a f**k about the date any more. All the watches I add to my collection now are dateless, and I'm a happier man for it.

Personally, as a designer I like the ~4:33 date window, but it seems I'm ahead of the curve on that one.

*- Have you ever considered a cyclops (and consequently a flat crystal)?*

The only thing I hate more than cyclopes is how they're spelled.

I like domed. Domed is nice. Let's keep it domed.

Say it with me now - DOMED.

No cyclops. If it were up to me every watch would be dateless. You're lucky I offer date/no-date as an option. Don't push your luck with that cyclops talk.

*- Do you take any custom requests (even at a higher price)? (Ie Nazario Ghost with Nazario Sauro bezel insert or something like that)*

We don't take any custom requests now, because the business isn't built to deliver on them such that the results would be good, fast, and affordable.

I know we could make them good. I can't guarantee they'd be fast.

As for the cost increase - at a minimum, I think giving people the ability to mix-and-match bezels, dials, and handsets would require adding $200 to the retail price of the watch, when I factor in the added labor, the added parts cost, the added aggravation, etc.

Does anyone here want to spend ~$900 for a one-off NTH Sub that may be impossible to sell if you decide you don't want it later?

Before anyone says yes, or emails me, don't. We're not set up to do it, and I'm not sure we ever will be.

For now, my answer is hell no. If things change, I'll make sure everyone knows.

*- Any plans to release any California dials with date complication?*

I wouldn't say I've got an agreement with John at Watch Gauge to NOT make any other California dials, but for the time being, it's been working out well to let the California-dialed Nazarios be a Watch Gauge thing exclusively.

I offered John the option of making them date/no-date, but he declined, and decided to make them all no-date only.

One of the challenges is that our MOQ on dials is 50 pieces per version. If we want to offer a date/no-date option, we have to make 100 of the dials - 50 date, 50 no-date - and we're not yet at the point where we want to start cranking out 100 Nazarios at a time. So, for now, they're all no-date, which is fine with me.

*- Any plans for a Black Barracuda Dial with applied indexes?*

No, because what's the point?

We do the gilt-relief dials, and for the time being, I think we're the only brand in the world doing them, especially as well as we're doing them. Any a-hole can make a dial with applied markers. I know, because I've made plenty, and I'm often an a-hole.

But there's only one Barracuda Vintage Black - and it's f**king killer exactly how it is.

So...no, no applied markers planned for that one.

*- Have you considered using other movements like a Sellita or Seiko? Do you choose movements based on thinness of your case (besides price point and serviceability )?*

I'm a huge fan of Japanese movements.

At the HK show last year, a VP from Seiko told me they were working on something to compete head-to-head with the Miyota 9015. He was cagey on the details, but I wasn't, because being cagey is for people who have all day to f**k around, and I don't.

I told him it needs to be as thin as, or thinner than the 9015, high-beat, more accurate than the NE15 (as accurate as the 9015), with at least as much power reserve as the 9015, and it had to be priced to compete with the 9015.

He half-heartedly mumbled something by way of a reply. It sounded like he was trying not to tell me it wouldn't be all that. When he changed the subject, and asked me if I'd seen the new NE57 with central power-reserve hand, I just walked away.

Seiko already has the perfect movement in their in-house watches. It's the 6L35 used in the SARA015.









It seems for now they want to keep it in-house, and sell those watches for >$2k. We'll see how well that works out for them. My bet is they'll see the light within the next two years, and well be able to source the 6L35 for about what a 9015 costs.

On the good-bad scale, that would be good.

Selitta? Did you mean the SW200?

The only Swiss movement which is thin enough to fit into the NTH Subs case is the ETA 2892-2, or a clone of it, or something equally thin. That would make the NTH Subs a $1500 watch, minimum. Be careful what you wish for.

Swiss movement costs have been going up rapidly recently. Rather than make more DevilRays with a Swiss movement, and pricing them at $850-$900, we've been considering making the DR with the Seiko NH35, and bringing the price down closer to $500.

If we make more of the NTH Tropics, we'd likely use the Miyota 9xxx. The Tropics' case was originally designed for the Miyota 9015, and had to be re-engineered to house the STP1-11. We could easily de-re-engineer it back to original, and shave a little thickness out of it at the same time.

You may have missed the discussion of Rusty's new brand, Atticus, which uses a Selitta SW200. Pre-orders start Tuesday. They'll be $500, which seems like a helluva deal on a nice watch which will eventually sell for $700.

I told him we needed to keep the in-stock price at $700 or under, because of all the dip$hlts online who don't want to pay more than $500 for any watch from a microbrand, no matter how much said watch actually costs to make, sell, and support. I think that $700 is a hard ceiling for the kind of watches we're making right now, but in six months, given what's happening with production costs, $900 could be the new $700, and if so, then I might think about making a $900 DevilRay with a Sellita inside.

So...yeah, I hope everyone gets in on the Atticus pre-order. It might be the last of the Mohicans when it comes that sort of thing.

Meanwhile, I was rocking my $700 DevilRay DeepSix LE all day today, thinking about how freaking sweet that watch is for what we sold it for.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

I know literally nothing about the legality and patents of the Rolex glide lock, but Monta has essentially the same function in their clasp so I would assume there's a way around it.

That's purely a comment in a vacuum. Just saying the patent may not be as air tight.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

That said it's probably cheaper for us watch owners to buy the clasp second hand than the headache to design your own that doesn't violate said patent


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I know literally nothing about the legality and patents of the Rolex glide lock, but Monta has essentially the same function in their clasp so I would assume there's a way around it.
> 
> That's purely a comment in a vacuum. Just saying the patent may not be as air tight.





docvail said:


> *Adjustable clasps add cost, and complexity. So you get a more expensive watch which is also more prone to have a part failure. *
> 
> Maybe for the $650-$675 we charge, we're doing it right, and *you don't really want to pay more than that because we keep adding features most people don't really want badly enough to pay for them. *
> 
> ...


Forget I mentioned the patent.

I swear, I should know not to mention IP on the forum by now. Mentioning IP has never not turned the discussion into a "how-did-I-get-here/kill-me-now" fest.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Let me make the clasp thing more clear. What I'm about to say applies equally (or proportionally, as the case may be) to ANY/ALL "nice to have" features anyone wants to ask me about adding to a watch.

How much is it REALLY worth to you?

Before you answer, let me make the unspoken part of that question more clear by reiterating and emphasizing something I just said, again, after saying it many times before - there is NOTHING we can add to the watch without adding cost.

That expansion clasp we used on the DevilRay and Tropics adds at least $50 to the price of the watch, above the clasp we're currently using on the Subs, which is more expensive than the old clasp.

Is that clasp worth paying another $50 for the watch? Specifically, is it worth turning the $650-$675 NTH Subs into $700-$725 Subs?

Maybe not THAT exact clasp, but, assume for the sake of discussion that some sort of semi-glidelock system would be the same cost, and same price. 

Hypothetically, if I were to take a poll of my customers, how many would vote to add that clasp, and $50 to the retail price, as opposed to being happy with the current price, and current solution of half-links on the bracelet and 6 micro-adjustments on the current clasp?

Sellita? If an SW200 could be shoe-horned into the Subs' case, it would raise the retail price by over $100, probably closer to $125, when I add in the higher customs duties and support costs. Now we're at $825-$875.

You see where this is going. Nothing people want me to add is "free". I think people think it's all "free", because they see some other brand selling a watch with a SW200, or that sort of clasp, and it's the same price or less.

But, the price isn't just a function of a list of specs. There's a difference in quality. There's a difference in the work we do pre- and post-sale. I can't give you the NTH Subs, as good as they are now, for the price they are now, and just willy-nilly toss in a wildly more-expensive component, with a higher failure and support needed rate.

My goal isn't to sell anyone the longest list of specs and features for the lowest price. Plenty of other brands doing that. My goal is to make everything we produce as good as it can possibly be, and sell it for a fair price, one that lets me run the business full-time, pay my people, and continue to grow.

The Subs are already as feature-rich as they're going to be at the current price. We can make some small tweaks to things, like changing the style of an end-link, but we can't keep adding in "nice-to-haves" without the price going up, or the quality of the product and/or our service going down.

Please, like the watch for what it is, or if not, don't buy it. No hard feelings. Sincerely. If getting the most features for the least money means more than the overall quality of the total product offering (product + purchasing & ownership experience), then there are plenty of other brands you should look at. NTH isn't for you.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

I was out of the watch game for a few months and now I have a lot of catching up to do. First stop, my favorite thread. For almost a year I wore only 2 watches consistently, my NTH Nacken and Omega Aqua Terra. I've reached the conclusion that those two are the highest quality watches that I have and they always put a smile on my face. Now I need to see what goodies Chris has made the last few months...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Iliyan said:


> I was out of the watch game for a few months and now I have a lot of catching up to do. First stop, my favorite thread. For almost a year I wore only 2 watches consistently, my NTH Nacken and Omega Aqua Terra. I've reached the conclusion that those two are the highest quality watches that I have and they always put a smile on my face. Now I need to see what goodies Chris has made the last few months...


I think we need to talk about this...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This is what happens when product development gets warped by customers who are features & specs obsessed...









That watch sells for $75-100 more than the NTH Subs, when someone opts to get it with both the BOR bracelet and tropic rubber strap, both of which were a disappointment, it seems. The clasp on the bracelet actually looks kinda flimsy - stamped, friction-closing, like what you'd get on a watch from the '70's.

The BOR's we sell are more than the stock Subs' Oyster bracelet, because BOR's, when done right, cost more to produce than an Oyster. But, yeah, you can get a worse one, for less.

The brand says they assemble in Europe. That's a nice to have, I guess, but it adds cost.

The watch has a sapphire bezel, another nice to have, which comes at a higher production cost, and a higher replacement cost.

It's thicker than the NTH Subs, but with 100m less WR.

There's no free lunch. Everything that gets added to the product has to be paid for, somehow. It's either in the price, or it's in corners cut somewhere else.

The blogging press *LOVED* it. They gushed about it. This guy is disappointed, and he's not alone. While I see many are happy with the watch, I've also seen many who are equally disappointed.

On paper, if all you see are the specs, and the features, it's easy to think it's "better" than something else with lesser/lower specs and features.

Quality matters. Experience matters. I'm not selling a list of features and specs. I'm selling a complete package, and it's as good as we can possibly make it for the price we charge for it.


----------



## Iliyan (May 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> I think we need to talk about this...
> 
> View attachment 14688117


Boo! I guess I need to make some edits...my monkey is gone!


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Please also note that extension clasp (whether it be ratcheted or glidelock system) adds up to the overall length of the bracelet, ie. if you have to remove 3 bracelet links to fit your wrist using regular clasp, then you will likely have to remove 4 or more links using extension clasp. It makes sense since it is designed for REAL divers to wear their watch above their wetsuit.

Now for people like me who have small wrist, this extension clasp is of no use. With regular clasp I already have to remove all removable links of the bracelet. I tried it with rubber strap, I did manage to fit it to my wrist but it looks ugly and feels very uncomfortable.

For me it's not an added feature, and I don't like to pay more for something I don't need.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> kYou may have missed the discussion of Rusty's new brand, Atticus, which uses a Selitta SW200. Pre-orders start Tuesday. They'll be $500, which seems like a helluva deal on a nice watch which will eventually sell for $700.


I'll be putting in my pre-order on Tuesday, but Rusty's use of the SW200 is a head-scratcher, especially since one of his design goals was thinness. Why go with the thicker & more expensive SW200 over the 9015?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

All the iterations of the glidelock I have seen are thicker than the OEM NTH clasps.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



wtma said:


> Please also note that extension clasp (whether it be ratcheted or glidelock system) adds up to the overall length of the bracelet, ie. if you have to remove 3 bracelet links to fit your wrist using regular clasp, then you will likely have to remove 4 or more links using extension clasp. It makes sense since it is designed for REAL divers to wear their watch above their wetsuit.
> 
> Now for people like me who have small wrist, this extension clasp is of no use. With regular clasp I already have to remove all removable links of the bracelet. I tried it with rubber strap, I did manage to fit it to my wrist but it looks ugly and feels very uncomfortable.
> 
> For me it's not an added feature, and I don't like to pay for something I don't need.


Exactly.

I'm all for finding ways to improve the product.

I'm also theoretically in favor of finding ways to get people to pay more for it. If adding features persuades people to pay more, that's good for me.

The challenge is that there are real psychological barriers which come into play when the prices hit certain price-POINTS.

Price points are real, and they cause the supply-demand-price curve to bend inward, which is a problem for a small company which is forced to produce a minimum number of pieces.









If I sell 2000 watches per year, in 90 days, on average, with our current balance of features & specs versus price, and we raise the prices 8%, I don't just need to be certain that we won't see greater than an 8% drop off in demand (and I'm not sure we wouldn't), I need to know we can still sell everything we produce in an average of 90 days.

I think if we added $50 to the price, even with something some people would see as a value-add, a lot of people wouldn't see enough value in it, if any, and we might see a 12%-20% decrease in sales, and/or an increase to 100 days.

That would be a disaster.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> I'll be putting in my pre-order on Tuesday, but Rusty's use of the SW200 is a head-scratcher, especially since one of his design goals was thinness. Why go with the thicker & more expensive SW200 over the 9015?


...



docvail said:


> When we discussed what movement to use, Rusty and I spent some time looking at what other brands have been doing recently, and also spent some time strategizing about the long-term plans for his brand.
> 
> Here's how we saw things, in a nutshell...
> 
> ...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Crud. I dropped my popcorn yesterday. Can I get a tl/dr?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

hwa said:


> Crud. I dropped my popcorn yesterday. Can I get a tl/dr?


tl/dr: He ain't changing jack.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

docvail said:


> This is what happens when product development gets warped by customers who are features & specs obsessed...
> 
> View attachment 14688153
> 
> ...


To each of it's own. I'm pretty sure he is talking about Baltic. Funny thing is I got a unit of the Baltic yesterday, and today I sold off my BVB.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> When we discussed what movement to use, Rusty and I spent some time looking at what other brands have been doing recently, and also spent some time strategizing about the long-term plans for his brand.
> 
> Here's how we saw things, in a nutshell...
> 
> ...


*Sigh*, so it's marketing triumphing over form function and cost. I'm still getting an Icarus, but I'd rather have it a mm or so thinner and put a few more of my dollars in Rusty's pocket (if indeed the SW200 costs him more per unit than a 9015 would).

I get it though, it's a rational decision in today's market.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> What would it take to change the opinion on the clasp?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Demand vs cost

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Avo said:


> *Sigh*, so it's marketing triumphing over form function and cost. I'm still getting an Icarus, but I'd rather have it a mm or so thinner and put a few more of my dollars in Rusty's pocket (if indeed the SW200 costs him more per unit than a 9015 would).
> 
> I get it though, it's a rational decision in today's market.


I'm sure they have thought about all of those things and they have decided that they have made the right call.

There are other factors to consider besides overall cost. Doc has mentioned before that they want to create a mentality of a sister brand while not being too close in nature. Having a different movement that is Swiss creates a completely different vibe. If it has the same movement, I'd think much harder on whether I wanted one in the same collection as an nth (if I care about having diversity). With a different movement, that thought is almost non existent. I get everything I know and love about nth while getting something completely different. Win/win.

I appreciate the changes atticus has made and think the price point (at retail) is spot on. At the pre order price, it's ridiculous.

You and rusty look like a great team.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

It would be unwise to develop a product with no thought given to what the market appetite for that product may be.

There are a lot of great watches which are similar to the Atticus models and use Miyota movements - Traska Summiteer, Borealis Adraga, and Smiths Everest, just off the top of my head. 

That's kind of the point. Rather than be in the thick of that pack, when most, if not all are going to be lower-priced (due to being made earlier, at a lower cost), we wanted to distance Atticus from the pack. 

I dunno what else there is to say about it. The decision was made, it's not reversible at this point, and the consensus seems to be that $500 in pre-order is more than fair.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

Yes, an extra $50 is worth it for a good on-the-fly adjustable clasp. Once you have one, you want nothing else. It's an amazing feature and worth every penny of $50.

But I will say this, with the 4 micro-adjustments and 2 half-links, Doc's bracelets offer a lot more adjustment and refinement than most. I was able to get a nice fit in the short time I had my NTH a few years ago.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

I probably haven't flipped nearly as many watches as some people on here but it's still an embarrassing amount to my wallet. One thing I won't do is deny being wrong. And I'm now firmly in the mindset that nearly all of the tool free adjustable clasps are too damn big, ESPECIALLY for a watch that's 10-11mm thick. The only one that's really gotten it right so far is Omega. The rolex design just sucks when size is part of the criteria, and the chinese knockoffs are horrible quality. The clasp that doc and rusty are using is light, slim and very easy to get your "goldilocks" fit with 6 positions. I keep a safety pin on my key chain in case I really need to make an adjustment. I don't want a bulkier clasp on the Meteora I'm ordering.
As for the movement, 10 is nice but who can notice the difference between 10 and 11mm? I just sold the SARB I bought a few months ago. Same thickness as an Nth sub, BUT, it appeared a lot thicker because of the case shape and dimensions. Poorly balanced is the best way I can describe it. The nth/atticus case design feels more natural on the wrist. The nth subs are VERY well balanced, I think the atticus will be even better because the bezel will be lighter.
I like the miyota, but $500 with the swiss movement is a bonus.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

PixlPutterMan said:


> That said it's probably cheaper for us watch owners to buy the clasp second hand than the headache to design your own that doesn't violate said patent


Have done this with a couple of my watch bracelets. Adjustable clasps can be useful, but in all honesty, the fixed clasp is more than adequate, at least for my use.

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

Agree about clasp length and size, Omega and Christopher Ward have it right in my experience.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> For those who need more explanation...
> 
> At what point has the product achieved the *right balance of features for the price*? I think we've achieved it already. There's nothing we can do to improve quality or add features without adding cost at this point. We're already dealing with people saying we're charging too much for a watch with "only" a Miyota inside.


I think so too, this is THE "sweet spot" imho.

In the realm of never going to happen and considering that no-one around me irl is interested in watch talk, let me present you my perfect NTH Sub 

Titanium mono-case with curved back 
Crystal gets screwed in a la Seiko Tuna He divers
One piece bezel (no insert) where only the bezel insert surface would be coated in black

5 digit sub bracelet with Rolex OP clasp, recessed design all in titanium held together with torx screws (no-one got time for that huge slab of Submariner clasp)
shoulderless spring bars with 1.2mm head diameter

Citizen signature premium Miyota 90XX movement (not sure what the actual changes are compared to the production premium 9015/9039 but accuracy is better and it sounds cool)
Platinum hands and dial indices


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rice and Gravy said:


> Yes, an extra $50 is worth it for a good on-the-fly adjustable clasp. Once you have one, you want nothing else. It's an amazing feature and worth every penny of $50.
> 
> But I will say this, with the 4 micro-adjustments and 2 half-links, Doc's bracelets offer a lot more adjustment and refinement than most. I was able to get a nice fit in the short time I had my NTH a few years ago.


Under the heading of "being needlessly pedantic even though someone agrees with you"...the current clasp actually has 6 micro-adjustments, not 4.

For me, the not-all-that-funny-irony here is that in a recent FB exchange, someone was complaining/criticizing the 16mm version of the same clasp being used on the Atticus, because of how long the clasp is as a result of having so many micro-adjustments.

His point wasn't just that it's too long in his opinion, but also, beyond a certain number, they're redundant, inasmuch as you could just remove another link to achieve the same fit.

On the latter point, he's not wrong. I have to admit I don't know why we'd need more micro-adjustments than what would otherwise equal the removal of another link.

I tried to explain that it isn't easy to find a good quality milled clasp, which is also shorter, and goes with the style of the watch, but also satisfies demand with how many micro-adjustments are present. It seems that in general, people's comments on the subject indicate more adjustment ability is almost always better.

He didn't seem to appreciate the logic or the response, and read it as defensive/argumentative, which is often the case when someone's criticism doesn't elicit an apology and a promise to change it.

What can we say here? I put a good bit of effort into finding a god replacement for the old Subs' clasp. I'm not sure it's a good use of my time to try to design a unique clasp of our own, when there's a good quality and well-suited clasp available already. I'd be concerned that a custom-designed solution - something which is shorter, could be too short when opened, and you'd have this problem (pic from another FB post in the same group):









From that guy's post on FB - "...I have some issues with the shorter clasp. It doesn't go on the normal way, I have to position it with the watch head facing me (hurts less) and even then it's a real squeeze. Even with this squeeze it ends up being a link or so too loose."

Welcome to my world. We have to be careful about trying to give people everything they think they want. Sometimes it's better not to reinvent the wheel.

I don't exactly want to dismiss the value of the expansion clasp in every day use. I get that people's wrists can swell and shrink over the course of a day. But the primary reason for that rapid expansion ability is for actual diving, where the wearer needs to wear the watch over a wetsuit.

Nobody's wrist expands and shrinks THAT much in a day (equal to the thickness of a wetsuit), that they couldn't get a bracelet fit which is comfortable all day, without needing a rapid expansion clasp.

In my view, as someone who designs and develops products for real-world use, and has to deal with the consequences of sub-optimal component choices, I've come to view expansion clasps as a bit pointless. Their added "cool factor" isn't enough to offset their added costs, added complexity, added thickness, and higher failure rate.

A quick-release diver's extension (one size fits all) is enough to accommodate a wetsuit's sleeve thickness. For daily (non-diving use), if you can't get a good enough fit by way of removing links (to include the 2 half-links in the Subs' bracelets), and the micro-adjustments on the clasp, you're almost certainly wearing your watch too tight at least part of the time.


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Of course it should also be mentioned that the example pictured was a design error that was quickly made right by Zelos... Everyone received a larger bridge for their clasp free of charge...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

I'll raise your "pedanticry" by saying currently has 6, HAD 4 when I owned one. 

:-d;-)

If I weren't so persnickity about bracelet fitment there are a few watches I'd probably still own, because I really mean it when I say that once you have a bracelet with the feature (done right), you will never want anything else.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> I think so too, this is THE "sweet spot" imho.
> 
> In the realm of never going to happen and considering that no-one around me irl is interested in watch talk, let me present you my perfect NTH Sub
> 
> ...



















Find 499 friends to put down full-price, non-refundable pre-orders, I'll make it, no problem.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> Of course it should also be mentioned that the example pictured was a design error that was quickly made right by Zelos... Everyone received a larger bridge for their clasp free of charge...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Be that as it may, my point remains unchanged - having had to deal with such issues post-delivery, I'm leery of trying to re-invent the wheel when the current wheel works as well as it does. Examples like that give me pause.

I'm sure that in retrospect, Elshan wished he'd field-tested that clasp more thoroughly. And I wonder if people liked the final result enough to rationalize the added cost of using that clasp - would they all agree that the custom-designed clasp was worth paying more for it, as opposed to something more "standard".

Most microbrands don't have a very well-developed or well-thought-out process for product development. More often than not, brand owners rush to make their dream watch, without putting enough effort into concept development, feasibility analysis, and field-testing. Very often, the results are unexpected and expensive consequences.

Experience has taught me not to rush product development, or to be too hasty to incorporate additional features simply because I've read comments from people clamoring for them. I'm not into "Field of Dreams" product design.

The expansion clasp we used on the Tropics and DevilRay is a powerful personal example. I got sucked into thinking that we "needed" it, yet it turned out to be the most frequent target of people's complaints. In retrospect, I don't think we needed it, and I'm unlikely to include it again on future models. Now, when people complain about wanting an expansion clasp on the Subs, I cringe.

Rather than piling on more features, not all of which are fully vetted or add enough value for what they cost, I think it's better to focus on improving the overall quality and "correctness" for each component choice and design decision.

On paper, especially for the specs and features obsessed, it may appear the overall package is "light", but in hand, it's cohesive, with few if any areas of obvious weakness.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Nah. The subs v1 clasp was decent and functional enough. Could it have been better? of course. v2 is the better version. It has everything one needs and nothing you don't, in a perfectly slim package.

Now, we can start talking titanium for case/bracelet, that discussion has legs. But the clasp, on the subs? Keep it as is and make it standard for all future models.

Would some expansion system be nice? Sure. With two conditions. 1) Clasp does NOT get thicker, longer, or shorter-when-opened. 2) The clasp does not look stupid when extended.

I haven't seen any example of an expanding clasp, unfortunately, that fulfills both 1 and 2.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14688861
> 
> 
> View attachment 14688871
> ...


The attachments are not showing for me.

Its more likely that I machine it myself than finding 499 friends who agree to this. 

The thread with the guy who made a SS case for a Casio ana-digi watch was inspiring and one of the coolest things I read in the watch world.

Part of the fun is thinking about this or that that does not exist.

"Wanting is a better feeling than having" - no idea where I read that quote.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Be that as it may, my point remains unchanged - having had to deal with such issues post-delivery, I'm leery of trying to re-invent the wheel when the current wheel works as well as it does. Examples like that give me pause.
> 
> I'm sure that in retrospect, Elshan wished he'd field-tested that clasp more thoroughly. And I wonder if people liked the final result enough to rationalize the added cost of using that clasp - would they all agree that the custom-designed clasp was worth paying more for it, as opposed to something more "standard".
> 
> ...


I feel like the expanding divers clasp is functional gold. It's commonly bashed for its size and looks.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Rice and Gravy said:


> Yes, an extra $50 is worth it for a good on-the-fly adjustable clasp. Once you have one, you want nothing else.


For me, this is not the case. As noted earlier, the adjustable clasps are all noticeably thick. I actually bought a plain vanilla strapcode clasp to replace the super-chunky-with-sharp-corners ratchet clasp on my Hamtum Neon. (Thetimebum has also expressed disdain for that particular style of clasp.) The glidelock style is better, but it's still a tradeoff. I have one of those on another watch, but I'm not looking to replace the strapcode on the Neon (or the OEM not-on-wrist-adjustable clasps on several other watches).

I've never owned an NTH, despite having my finger hovering over the "buy" button on several occasions (I'm still hoping for my personal idea of a more perfect hands-dial-bezel combo to magically appear one day), but I'm sure I'd be happy with the clasp.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

On the subject of adjustable clasps, I've always liked the ratcheting designs and don't find this has any negatives in thickness / size. But I'm sure someone somewhere won't like it for some reason or another....... 



















Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> On the subject of adjustable clasps, I've always liked the ratcheting designs and don't find this has any negatives in thickness / size. But I'm sure someone somewhere won't like it for some reason or another.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ordinarily, I'd be happier with the added thickness and length (TWSS), but not on a clasp riding the underside of my wrist.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Ordinarily, I'd be happier with the added thickness and length (TWSS), but not on a clasp riding the underside of my wrist.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Well, this the problem isn't it; I like it, you don't, fair enough. But as youve alluded as a business you're walking a tightrope of trying to satisfy enough customers......

I've not noticed the Helson's clasp when I wear it tbh being a problem. I'll measure and compare to the NTH for curiosity......


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> Well, this the problem isn't it; I like it, you don't, fair enough. But as youve alluded as a business you're walking a tightrope of trying to satisfy enough customers......
> 
> I've not noticed the Helson's clasp when I wear it tbh being a problem. I'll measure and compare to the NTH for curiosity......


I think the other point to make is one decision is negative impact facing and the other decision is positive impact.

Ie if you add the clasp that some customers want, it might negatively hinder sales because of price increase or dislike of said clasp. (negative impact)

On the other hand, if you have a standard clasp, you might not have everything those "clasp" customers want but they will still buy along with the people who didn't want the clasp in the first place (positive impact)

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

ryan850 said:


> I think the other point to make is one decision is negative impact facing and the other decision is positive impact.
> 
> Ie if you add the clasp that some customers want, it might negatively hinder sales because of price increase or dislike of said clasp. (negative impact)
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to influence Doc to do something he doesn't want to, firstly I like the NTH subs just the way it is and secondly he knows more about this than I do. Just aiming to talk about clasps.....

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Rice and Gravy said:


> Agree about clasp length and size, Omega and Christopher Ward have it right in my experience.


+1 on the CWard adjustable. Its phenomenal.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Comparison of NTH versus Helson clasp dimensions, apologies for the crap photos.....










NTH clasp about 37mm long, Helson is 40mm.



















Helson is about 19mm wide and NTH is about 20mm.



















NTH clasp is about 7mm thick with Helson at 8mm.



















So, not a huge amount in it between the two in terms of additional bulk on the wrist......

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to influence Doc to do something he doesn't want to, firstly I like the NTH subs just the way it is and secondly he knows more about this than I do. Just aiming to talk about clasps.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Same here. Should have quoted docs post and not yours. I like talking about all this also 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

The Helson clasp is closed all the way though, it gets longer as you loosen it. Omega's and Christopher Ward's adjustable clasps don't change dimensions when used, making them much more comfortable and both are under 40mm (about the same length as the NTH). I know this is hyperbole and the horse is dead, but a well executed on-the-fly adjustable clasp is life changing to a WIS bracelet wearer.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Ginault's clasp (glidelock style)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Rice and Gravy said:


> The Helson clasp is closed all the way though, it gets longer as you loosen it. Omega's and Christopher Ward's adjustable clasps don't change dimensions when used, making them much more comfortable and both are under 40mm (about the same length as the NTH). I know this is hyperbole and the horse is dead, but a well executed on-the-fly adjustable clasp is life changing to a WIS bracelet wearer.


I had a Tudor Pelagos and that had a good system of two different adjustments, one where you had to take the watch off a la glidelock and the ingenious spring adjustment. For the latter I tried to adjust the bracelet such that I'd be on the springs adjustment and it'd always be perfect, but it never worked for me. I like the ratcheting Helson as I can adjust it with out removing the watch; first world problems eh......


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

jerseydan31 said:


> Ginault's clasp (glidelock style)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Isn't the glidelock a Rolex patented design?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

jerseydan31 said:


> Ginault's clasp (glidelock style)


I bought one of those "Fits NTH subs" "Ginault-style" bracelets off [popular auction site] and didn't like it. The clasp was rather long, and in combination with the 20-16mm tapering, it was a removable link short on the 6 side from being comfortable for me. Flipped it right quick.

Apparently, I'd rather have something like the NTH V2 bracelet, with shorter clasp, more removable links, and half-links for adjustability. Plus, just playing around with the "glidelock"-ish mechanism, I don't see that it's something I would be adjusting to make a watch fit better over the course of a day. I've tried other ratcheting extension clasps, too, and gladly sacrifice such adjustability for a svelter clasp.

If I want something that adjusts to wrist swelling and shrinking, I'll go elastic of some kind, like an EO MN, Mankey Hook Strap, and the like. Maybe a Speidel Twist-o-Flex? Otherwise, I'm happy to wear bracelets on the looser side, and fit is seldom an issue.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

@everyone who wants shorter and has a microadjust clasp

Why not cut it? Afterwards go through 2 or 3 grits of sandpaper and it should be as new...


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

dp


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Well, this the problem isn't it; I like it, you don't, fair enough. But as youve alluded as a business you're walking a tightrope of trying to satisfy enough customers......
> 
> I've not noticed the Helson's clasp when I wear it tbh being a problem. I'll measure and compare to the NTH for curiosity......


It's not so much that I dislike it, it's that I'm aware that it's a complaint from some customers, possibly as many as there are like you, who like it.

Indeed, it is a tightrope of trying to satisfy people - as many as I can, as best I can, taking into consideration the literal cost of each component, as well as the possible cost that every choice might have a negative effect equal to or greater than the potential positive.

I've no particular criticism for that Helson's clasp specifically, or any similar clasps generally. All of my comments here are simply factual - they add cost, add complexity, are more failure-prone, and while some may view them as a "nice to have" feature on a watch, I came to realize that as many or more don't really like them, or at best, don't like them enough to want to pay the added cost for them.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Since we're talking about clasps, the best one I've ever seem is the one on the IWC Pilot XVIII. Never held one in person, but in photos it's gorgeous. But it ought to be for $5000...

I personally love the Omega Seamaster clasp, and it's the nicest one I actually own. But some people don't like them as the older ones (which I have) have NO micro adjustments. But it almost disappears on my wrist.

Bottom line, there are pros and cons to all of them. I like Doc's clasp for the money invested. Most all of the aftermarket alternatives have gotten enough mediocre reviews on here to keep me from trying them.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

dmjonez said:


> Since we're talking about clasps, the best one I've ever seem is the one on the IWC Pilot XVIII. Never held one in person, but in photos it's gorgeous. But it ought to be for $5000...


got pics?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Bottom line - NO, I'm not even remotely considering adding an expansion or otherwise adjustable-on-the-fly clasp to the Subs, and in fact I'm planning to delete that feature from future iterations of the Tropics and DevilRay.

It's my assessment that there are as many, if not more people who simply do NOT want one, and will complain about them. Still more do not like them enough to pay more to get one. I don't see them adding enough value to the product to offset the added cost, and I'd be concerned that they'd hurt sales more than help sales. 

If I have to choose between fielding complaints/suggestions/requests from those who like them, and dealing with the consequences of adding one, it's an easy decision for me to make, having gone through the experience of using them twice before, and the effort to source the clasp we're currently using.

I regret trying to explain the thinking here, as it appears to have triggered unwanted debate. I should have stopped at "NO".


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I haven't been following the thread today but on-the-fly adjustable clasps are awesome and Doc and anyone else who disagrees is wrong. But that's ok.

Anyway, it rained today. I wore this. Every time.










For anyone looking for a proper dive watch, I can confirm the Subs are WR to overcast weather.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> I regret trying to explain the thinking here, as it appears to have triggered unwanted debate.


Nah, just idle talk while we wait for the Atticus, and the Nomad...

We're good, but we just like talking about watches and clasps and stuff, while we solve all the worlds problems.



X2-Elijah said:


> got pics?


Not my photos, purloined from the internet:


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

ck2k01 said:


> ............For anyone looking for a proper dive watch, I can confirm the Subs are WR to overcast weather.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Or even typical "sunny" day over here in dear old Blighty.............









Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ragl said:


> Or even typical "sunny" day over here in dear old Blighty.............
> 
> View attachment 14689587
> 
> ...


I'll raise you one.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

ck2k01 said:


> I'll raise you one.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

jerseydan31 said:


> Ginault's clasp (glidelock style)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cant help it.

If by Ginault, you mean Rolex, then yeah, thats a Rolex

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> Nah, just idle talk while we wait for the Atticus, and the Nomad...
> 
> We're good, but we just like talking about watches and clasps and stuff, while we solve all the worlds problems.
> 
> ...


Very intricate and handy for adjustment, a few more pins present. A failure of a pin or spring away from a repair, which of course could be said of any adjustable clasp.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

yankeexpress said:


> Very intricate and handy for adjustment, a few more pins present. A failure of a pin or spring away from a repair, which of course could be said of any adjustable clasp.
> 
> View attachment 14689669


That, and the price, are why I probably don't own one. It just seems like to much effort for the gain. I tend to treat my watches poorly. I bang them on stuff. I like not having to baby them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Nah, just idle talk while we wait for the Atticus, and the Nomad...
> 
> We're good, but we just like talking about watches and clasps and stuff, while we solve all the worlds problems.


Hopefully I can be forgiven if I occasionally start to sound grouchy after discussion of a topic has gone on at length.

Clasps are suddenly a hot topic in my world, and I don't just mean here.

It's now been one year since we released the Subs with the new bracelet and clasp. Generally, the response seems to be positive to both, overall. And, for the most part, I'm able to tolerate the occasional comment lamenting that it isn't an expansion clasp.

That said, I saw right away that the new clasps generally require more force to close than the old clasps, and I think as a result, they also might be more likely to suddenly pop open, if not properly / fully closed.

Requiring more force wouldn't typically bother or worry me, except that we brought out the Dolphins, which were intended to be unisex. My wife, mother, and two aunts all have one (plus my wife also has a Holland). My mom and my aunts are in their '70's. While visiting with her over Thanksgiving, I inadvertently hurt my mom's wrist helping her get the clasp closed.

John Keil forwarded me a message last week, from a customer complaining about how difficult the clasp is to shut. I started to feel a creeping sense of anxiety about the clasp.

At this point, my inner Ranger Medic comes out, and I go into crisis response mode. I grab the three new Subs I have in my collection, plus some of the old Subs (with the old clasp), and jump on the phone with Dan, who's a mechanical genius, to do a deep-dive into the intricacies of the design of each clasp.

What's causing this, Dan? Is it the height or shape of the prong, an overly-tight spring in the push-button release, too-tight tolerances, not enough clearance, some defect in design or manufacture?

At the end of all the hand-wringing and teeth-gnashing, all we came up with was that the head of the little prong is shaped like a cone with a flat top surface, whereas the old clasp's prong head was more smoothly rounded - more like a dome than a cone.

As for a "solution", Dan suggested pushing the buttons in while closing the clasp, which I'd done, and wasn't bothered by having to do it, but felt that we shouldn't need to do that, which is exactly how I think a lot of customers would feel, leading me to begin worrying that we were in for the usual "I've owned dozens of watches and never needed to do that with any of them" sort of response.

I replied to John, and asked him to forward the suggestion to the customer. Meanwhile we waited to see if the customer accepted it, or balked, opening up the dreaded cycle of having to explain how things work to someone who doesn't want to hear it.

Thankfully, the guy accepted that, in fact he said that he didn't know why it didn't occur to him on his own. I was bracing to see the "NTH clasp is effed up, and so is their solution" thread pop up, but thankfully, it never materialized.

---

I'm not sure if this makes complete sense, and I know some hater or troll will twist this around, but here goes...

I'm intensely focused on making sure that everything we produce is right, and as good as it can be. And yet, the reality is that we don't have unlimited time or resources to do all our own in-house engineering and extended testing of every component we use. There are a lot of things I'd like to do, or try, but the business doesn't yet have the capacity for me to chase down every idea I want to explore.

As such, I try to keep in mind that every time we decide to change anything, there's a risk that the result will NOT be an improvement, or that there will be some unforeseen consequence to that decision, potentially a disastrous one. Because we can't afford a big mistake, I think it's best to make sure that we stick to those things our vendors have proven they can do well.

Every "problem" we try to solve opens up the possibility that the solution just brings more problems. Observe...

1. I knew the Tropics and DevilRay would need to be priced higher than the NTH Subs, so I wanted to add value to the total package. Having read comments from people talking about how awesome expansion clasps are, and seeing that above a certain price, a lot of guys expect an upscale clasp, we opted to add one to those two models.

2. As luck would have it, my vendor had a newly-designed expansion clasp to show me, with some features which seemed to be an advantage over existing clasps at that time, but without any added production cost. So using the new clasp was a no-brainer.

3. Meanwhile, the discussion about clasps which preceded that decision included a detour into a related discussion about "clasp-gap" - the gaping maw of black space between the thin links of a bracelet and the underside of a thick clasp.

4. When I got the Tropics prototypes, sure enough, I was now fixated on clasp-gap, and solving that new "problem". Another friend suggested we follow Hanhart's example, showing me his Hanhart bracelet and clasp, where the links near the clasp are wedge-shaped, and taper seamlessly into the thicker clasp.

5. I asked my vendor to have the bracelets made with the links on either side of the clasp similarly wedge-shaped. In fact, I took the time to take measurements of the links and clasp of the prototype, and specify exactly how thick I wanted the ends of those links. But, because we'd already had prototypes made, this was a change that wouldn't be seen in the metal until we got the full production from our vendors.

6. What I didn't realize was that the clasp has a little lip on its underside, and that lip wouldn't allow for my newly-designed fat-end links to slide under the clasp, making the micro-adjustments on the expansion clasp not just pointless, which micro-adjustments would already seem to be on an expansion clasp, but REALLY pointless, since they now couldn't be used.

7. Not many people complained, but some did, to include one guy who destroyed his clasp trying to modify it so he could use the micro-adjustments. Additionally, the new clasp had sharp corners, which people complained about, and, because I'd modified the design of the links to lessen the clasp-gap, the bracelet wouldn't accommodate any aftermarket clasps anyone tried to fit to it, which just further enraged some folks.

8. For the DevilRay, I told my vendor to delete the micro-adjustment holes from the clasp, but also made sure the DR's links would be thin enough at the ends to allow someone to fit an aftermarket clasp. I also asked them to see about rounding the corners of the clasp a bit, but I was told that the sharp corners are built into the tooling for the clasps, so I should keep my expectations about their being rounded pretty low.

9. For the new Subs' clasp, I traveled to China to source *THE* perfect clasp. Well, here we are - the new clasp needs more effort to close, is longer than the old clasp (leading to a new complaint about it), and still isn't good enough for the guys who don't seem to understand that an expansion clasp would be even longer, even thicker, more expensive, more likely to fail, and not necessarily preferable to a lot of my customers.

You follow all that? Every problem we tried to solve just led to another problem. That was a lot of time and effort spent trying to fix "problems" which, in retrospect, don't seem as big to me as the problems which followed.

Now, we're looking at solving all those problems if we make more of the Tropics or DevilRay. Know how we'll do that? A big part of the solution is to utilize the same clasp we're using on the NTH Subs, the one which works well (albeit, with some added effort needed to close it), has generated far fewer complaints, gotten more praise, and costs less to produce. Plus, using the same clasp on all three NTH models means we only have to stock one type of clasp for replacements, which makes it easier to support customers post-sale.

Y'all like to break my balls about the walls-of-text. Okay, go ahead and break 'em. But, at least recognize that I put a lot of thought into the product we deliver, and there isn't any aspect of it which hasn't been carefully considered.

When someone questions any of those decisions we made, it's like barging into a top chef's kitchen and asking why he doesn't salt the food more, or scorch the butter, or whatever. It's kind of insulting to second-guess a professional trying to deliver something that is going to please the widest range of palates, on a budget, while also letting everyone watch him work.

You want the food? You want it right, fast, affordable, and tasty? Let the chef do his work. Go sit down, and open a bottle of wine. Trust the process and the professional.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Wall of text












Expansion clasps are still awesome.

(Being a watch collector seems way more enjoyable/less effort than a watch company owner.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

The new clasps are fine. Short answer to the WoT: Everything I've found better is on a watch thousands of dollars more. When I wear the latest clasp/bracelet, it disappears on my wrist, which is my preference.

Having said that, it doesn't mean I still won't obsess over that IWC until I buy one some day. And I'll probably decide it wasn't worth $5000, and then I'll flip it.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> He half-heartedly mumbled something by way of a reply. It sounded like he was trying not to tell me it wouldn't be all that. When he changed the subject, and asked me if I'd seen the new NE57 with central power-reserve hand, I just walked away.


You made the right call there. The 4R57 is a ridiculously fat bastard, and the cocktails that Seiko makes with it are knocking on the door of *15mm* thick! For what are supposed to be dress watches! It's absurd. For comparison, the 6R21 has a 42hr power reserve, 3 sub-dials for PR, day, and date, and beats at 4Hz. My watches that use it are around 12.5mm thick. I don't know why the 4R57 exists.


----------



## Horoticus (Jul 23, 2011)

^ Doc whatever you do, do NOT scorch the butter...


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

dp


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> You made the right call there. The 4R57 is a ridiculously fat bastard, and the cocktails that Seiko makes with it are knocking on the door of *15mm* thick! For what are supposed to be dress watches! It's absurd. For comparison, the 6R21 has a 42hr power reserve, 3 sub-dials for PR, day, and date, and beats at 4Hz. My watches that use it are around 12.5mm thick. I don't know why the 4R57 exists.
> 
> View attachment 14689981


Holy $. 15mm! That's twice my high beat Seiko and close to my G-Shock Rangeman


----------



## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

Anybody have a link for an oyster bracelet that fits the NTH case? Tried a Carlywet and it was a no go. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Porterjrm said:


> Anybody have a link for an oyster bracelet that fits the NTH case? Tried a Carlywet and it was a no go.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Lose the OEM? I don't have a link, but I understand that any AM bracelet that fits the Rol3x Subs will fit.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> The new clasps are fine. Short answer to the WoT: Everything I've found better is on a watch thousands of dollars more. When I wear the latest clasp/bracelet, it disappears on my wrist, which is my preference.
> 
> Having said that, it doesn't mean I still won't obsess over that IWC until I buy one some day. And I'll probably decide it wasn't worth $5000, and then I'll flip it.


You might just keep it!









Oh, and doc, most of the suggestions/criticisms aren't looking for arguments, they're just looking to order off the menu.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Porterjrm said:


> Anybody have a link for an oyster bracelet that fits the NTH case? Tried a Carlywet and it was a no go.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Try again, brother, carlywet will fit with a bit of fiddling. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

hwa said:


> Try again, brother, carlywet will fit with a bit of fiddling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I assumed Carlywet since the images match on aliex. After working with a dremel it's still a no go and will be used for the clasp and extra links if needed. I tried my Ginault bracelet and it sits low. It fits. I thought I had seen someone using an oyster that sits flush or close to it. Even if hollow links I'd be happy, I just want some taper.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rice and Gravy said:


> I'll raise your "pedanticry" by saying currently has 6, *HAD 4* when I owned one.
> 
> :-d;-)
> 
> If I weren't so persnickity about bracelet fitment there are a few watches I'd probably still own, because I really mean it when I say that once you have a bracelet with the feature (done right), you will never want anything else.


*three.

Never get pedantic with a pedant when death is on the line...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> I don't know why the 4R57 exists.


Because Japan.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Porterjrm said:


> Well I assumed Carlywet since the images match on aliex. After working with a dremel it's still a no go and will be used for the clasp and extra links if needed. I tried my Ginault bracelet and it sits low. It fits. I thought I had seen someone using an oyster that sits flush or close to it. Even if hollow links I'd be happy, I just want some taper.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


The stock bracelet has a 2mm taper, from 20mm lugs to 18mm clasp, FWIW.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> You might just keep it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Meh.

People ask questions, I'm happy enough to give the answers.

All the discussion after that sounds like a bunch of argle-bargle to me, but I grew up with a lot of argle-bargle, so maybe all further discussion just sounds that way to my ears.

I ain't mad at nobody. I get tired of saying the same thing a different way after the third or fourth attempt within 24-48 hours, but that's what sleep and booze are for.


----------



## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> The stock bracelet has a 2mm taper, from 20mm lugs to 18mm clasp, FWIW.


And it's very comfortable. But I can't leave ..... alone as most know. Undoubtedly if I get one to go on I won't be happy with the end link fit and will keep the stock one on and be happy forever.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Porterjrm said:


> And it's very comfortable. But I can't leave ..... alone as most know. Undoubtedly if I get one to go on I won't be happy with the end link fit and will keep the stock one on and be happy forever.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Certain urges simply won't be denied.

When I was 12, my dad bought me a Daisy air rifle for Christmas, and did his best to put the fear of God into me when he told me not to shoot anybody with it.

I made it about six months, before my friend and I took turns running across the yard while the other one of us tried to hit his buddy mid-sprint.

I still can't help laughing out loud, thinking about my buddy letting out a yelp, grabbing his a$$, and limping to cover, after I hit him square in the left cheek.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> ...
> As for a "solution", Dan suggested pushing the buttons in while closing the clasp,
> ...


Pardon the edited quote.

"Solution"? I thought this was standard practice. Maybe (I don't remember) I tried to push an NTH clasp closed once and noticed it was difficult. Maybe not. But I'm definitely in the habit of using the buttons when putting on subs. Just the slightest pressure and the clasps close like scorched butter.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

I also have the habit of pushing the clasp buttons when I put the bracelet on, but for the reason to minimize tear and wear in the long term. Out of 4 NTH Subs I own, one clasp in particular is very hard to lock that pushing the buttons is a must, just so I’m not afraid of breaking the prong. It shouldn’t be like that, but it doesn’t bother me at all though, just make sure it’s properly locked.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Pardon the edited quote.
> 
> "Solution"? I thought this was standard practice. Maybe (I don't remember) I tried to push an NTH clasp closed once and noticed it was difficult. Maybe not. But I'm definitely in the habit of using the buttons when putting on subs. Just the slightest pressure and the clasps close like scorched butter.


I'm not gonna live that scorched butter comment down, obviously.

The original Subs' clasp was pretty slick-closing, as was that clasp when we used it on the L&H Acionna, Cerberus, Orthos, and Spectre II. None of those required any extra effort, in my observation.

I think that "normal" for that type of clasp is to just be able to push it down, without using the buttons. But, even my experience is limited. Maybe using the push-buttons to close the clasp is actually normal, and the other clasps we've used were too easily shut.

I've had to deal with similar things before. Some of the crown assemblies on some of the older L&H models needed a little finesse to go from time-setting to winding position. It was a function of the WR gaskets in the assembly putting resistance on the crown stem, which I confirmed with multiple watchmakers, but some guys just didn't want to accept that it was "normal", not a defect.

Hearing someone say, "I've had lots of watches, and never had one do this" as a response to telling them how to work a crown or clasp is one of my pet peeves.

All part of the territory, for better or worse, it seems.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

My anecdotard evidence: I have close to a dozen strapcode clasps of various vintage and design, most are button lock. The easy to close ones infrequently pop the latch open while in use, the stiffer closing latch ones, don’t.

Therefore, stiffer ones are more secure. It’s a feature.


Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

“Therefore, stiffer ones are more secure. It’s a feature.”

TWSS!


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Hopefully I can be forgiven if I occasionally start to sound grouchy after discussion of a topic has gone on at length.
> 
> Clasps are suddenly a hot topic in my world, and I don't just mean here.
> 
> ...


Do you wanna talk about bracelet taper instead?


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Do you wanna talk about bracelet taper instead?


Dear God, no.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Certain urges simply won't be denied.
> 
> When I was 12, my dad bought me a Daisy air rifle for Christmas, and did his best to put the fear of God into me when he told me not to shoot anybody with it.
> 
> ...


How many pumps?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

docvail said:


> Certain urges simply won't be denied.
> 
> When I was 12, my dad bought me a Daisy air rifle for Christmas, and did his best to put the fear of God into me when he told me not to shoot anybody with it.
> 
> ...


Sherriff









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Roy Hobbs said:


> Sherriff
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We need a bit more context on this

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

hwa said:


> We need a bit more context on this
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You need to re-watch the movie...

Oh, and there's no bracelet on that IWC of yours, which is my whole reason for wanting one. Unless you're stashing it away.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dmjonez said:


> You need to re-watch the movie...
> 
> Oh, and there's no bracelet on that IWC of yours, which is my whole reason for wanting one. Unless you're stashing it away.


No stash. That bracelet is spendy, and maybe just a touch too gaudy. The watch may be called le petit prince, but as you know, I'm more of a beat up leather type

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Do you wanna talk about bracelet taper instead?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> How many pumps?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just one.

Yes, it's true, there was a time when I was a single-pump chump.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

The other thing I like about the NTH bracelet is the three-link design. That other bracelet I tried was an oyster style, where the middle "link" was part of the outers, in essence a 1-link bracelet. I think I liked the H-link I had on a Sinn 556 marginally better than the NTH bracelet, and I was initially suspect about the fit of the male endlink design, but the 3-link design of the NTH does a great job mitigating that issue for me. 

Regarding taper, if the trade-off for 20-16 taper is losing removable links from either side of the clasp (which in some cases, it is), I'm not a fan. Add in a substantially longer clasp with on the fly adjustment mechanism, and it can make satisfactory fitment difficult, if not impossible, especially for the smaller wristed.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> ...I'm more of a beat up leather type
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


On some level, I think we all knew...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

remind me what we're talking about.



docvail said:


> Just one.
> 
> Yes, it's true, there was a time when I was a single-pump chump.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Look guys! 
A cool watch I found👍


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Sorry I couldnt find this in searching, about when does the new 12 hour Scorpene drop?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Sorry I couldnt find this in searching, about when does the new 12 hour Scorpene drop?


January


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

This one seems to be sticking around. Back on the fantastic NTH bracelet, with its awesome stock clasp.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

docvail said:


>


Nice pocket square.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


>


I'll take that as a yes then........


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> The other thing I like about the NTH bracelet is the three-link design. That other bracelet I tried was an oyster style, where the middle "link" was part of the outers, in essence a 1-link bracelet.


So...the previous generation oyster on the NTH Subs was a "true" three-link setup, inasmuch as the three links were all individual pieces. Honestly, I wasn't even sure about that at first, because the middle link didn't swing freely, so it seemed like all three links were just a single piece of steel with lines cut into it, to make it look like three pieces.

It was only when I asked my vendor about it that I received an engineering diagram showing how the three links were joined together. The center-link was joined to the outer two links by two parallel pins, which effectively locked it in place.

It was sort of explained to me that it had to be done that way, due to the positioning of the center-link, the edge of which wasn't perfectly aligned with the mid-line of the two outer links. That was just the "standard" setup for oyster style bracelets, apparently.

We just needed to specify the end-result we wanted while designing the new bracelet, which, while not all that unique, isn't an "off the shelf" or catalog component. We actually specified the length and thickness of the links, their shape, how many needed to be removable, that they needed to be fully articulated, etc. That bracelet was made according to our design.



mconlonx said:


> I think I liked the H-link I had on a Sinn 556 marginally better than the NTH bracelet, and I was initially suspect about the fit of the male endlink design, but the 3-link design of the NTH does a great job mitigating that issue for me.


I love H-link bracelets, which is why I used them on the L&H Cerberus, Orthos, and Spectre II. For all the talk about a bracelet with more and smaller links being more comfortable, I think H-links are underrated.

Male end-links get a bad rap, unfairly. People obsess about their horizontal length, but if they curve down to follow curved lugs, then that center-portion is just following the arc of the lugs around the wrist. There's no real difference in fit or functional length.



mconlonx said:


> Regarding taper, if the trade-off for 20-16 taper is losing removable links from either side of the clasp (which in some cases, it is), I'm not a fan. Add in a substantially longer clasp with on the fly adjustment mechanism, and it can make satisfactory fitment difficult, if not impossible, especially for the smaller wristed.


I don't know how a 20-16 taper would impact the removable links, because I've never explored the idea. I just figure a 2mm taper is a good middle-ground compromise between a 4mm taper and no taper at all.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Sorry I couldnt find this in searching, about when does the new 12 hour Scorpene drop?


Sometime in January. Exact date still TBD.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

A 2mm taper is usually done over two links, a 4 mm taper is done over 3 links. So yes this would impact the number of removable links on any bracelet. I have put multiple aftermarket bracelets on my NTH Subs as I prefer the 20-16mm taper. I have a Jubilee, President and an Oyster with a glide-lock clasp which all work perfectly for me.









Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Wow... that Amphion Vintage Blue. Love it.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Omegafanboy said:


> A 2mm taper is usually done over two links, a 4 mm taper is done over 3 links. So yes this would impact the number of removable links on any bracelet. I have put multiple aftermarket bracelets on my NTH Subs as I prefer the 20-16mm taper. I have a Jubilee, President and an Oyster with a glide-lock clasp which all work perfectly for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know you've posted before and not sure if you have mentioned, what bracelets are those and where did you get them?

Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> Holy $. 15mm! That's twice my high beat Seiko and close to my G-Shock Rangeman


Seriously. If you need that much case height for a center post power reserve hand, something is seriously wrong. 15mm is Valjoux 7750 territory.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

::Watches bemused as you bracelet guys agonize endlessly over your clasp designs:: Give me a good old-fashioned pin buckle any day of the week, and I'm happy as a clam. I can punch in new "micro adjustment" holes in about 5 seconds if I don't like where the factory ones are.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> ::Watches bemused as you bracelet guys agonize endlessly over your clasp designs:: Give me a good old-fashioned pin buckle any day of the week, and I'm happy as a clam. I can punch in new "micro adjustment" holes in about 5 seconds if I don't like where the factory ones are.


Philistine......

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Or, you do both


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Omegafanboy said:


> A 2mm taper is usually done over two links, a 4 mm taper is done over 3 links. So *yes this would impact the number of removable links on any bracelet.*


Not an argument, only an observation/question regarding the part in bold - would it?

Looking at both the old and the new Subs' bracelets, none of the four links on either side of the case are removable, so, logically, if the taper happens over 2 links or 3, none of those would be removable in either scenario, I'd think.

The 4mm taper happening over so few links just looks weird to me. I would actually look more "right" if it happened over more links, I think, but then, perhaps it would have an impact on how many links could be made removable.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

ryan850 said:


> I know you've posted before and not sure if you have mentioned, what bracelets are those and where did you get them?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


All of mine were bought off Aliexpress from Carlywet, which as someone else has mentioned is a bit hit and miss. Some have fitted with no issues, others have taken some manipulation, but some just never fit. That said most of them cost less than $20 so it is not that big a loss if they do not fit. One of the ones I bought that did not fit my NTH ended up being perfect for my Halios Seaforth.

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> Or, you do both
> 
> View attachment 14692231


Eh. I prefer the tail with keepers. Sits flatter on the wrist, and there's nothing to scratch.


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Not an argument, only an observation/question regarding the part in bold - would it?


Maybe it wouldn't have to, but in the case of that "fit's NTH subs" 20-16 bracelet I picked up, either it did matter, and maybe the taper happened over more than 3 links, or shouldn't have mattered, with the taper happening in the first three links, just that they chose to make some of the post-taper straight links non-removable. In any case, when I posted about this concern in The Brand Which Shall Not Be Named thread over in the Dive watch forum, I was told that it would be fixed, with more removable links for the new release.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Maybe it wouldn't have to, but in the case of that "fit's NTH subs" 20-16 bracelet I picked up, either it did matter, and maybe the taper happened over more than 3 links, or shouldn't have mattered, with the taper happening in the first three links, just that they chose to make some of the post-taper straight links non-removable. In any case, when I posted about this concern in The Brand Which Shall Not Be Named thread over in the Dive watch forum, I was told that it would be fixed, with more removable links for the new release.


Can't decide if I should laugh or shake my head at that.

My personal experience and observation, for whatever it's worth - Chinese bracelet suppliers must think everyone outside China has a wrist from 7"-9". The average is actually around 7". But time and again, I've seen Chinese-made bracelets which were just enormous, and all too often, they didn't have enough removable links to size a bracelet for smaller wrists.

This isn't just a problem with my supplier, either. The bracelet on the Chinese Mech Watch Forum's "dual crown" project was enormous. I've seen people complaining about not having enough removable links in bracelets from at least three other brands. After making the original L&H Orthos, which was sizable down to 6.5" (*maybe*), I started specifying the size range we needed to achieve with the bracelet for each new model.

*Ironic and not-so-fun-fact:* Despite Chinese bracelet suppliers thinking we've all got gorilla-wrists, I've found the opposite problem with Chinese strap suppliers, some of whom apparently think no one's wrist could possibly reach 8" around, much less larger than that. After getting complaints about the strap on the L&H Spectre being too short, I had to start playing close attention to strap lengths when sourcing straps for future models.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Can't decide if I should laugh or shake my head at that.
> 
> My personal experience and observation, for whatever it's worth - Chinese bracelet suppliers must think everyone outside China has a wrist from 7"-9". The average is actually around 7". But time and again, I've seen Chinese-made bracelets which were just enormous, and all too often, they didn't have enough removable links to size a bracelet for smaller wrists.
> 
> ...


You should have just started telling them that westerners actually wear their watches on their ankles now. They might have believed the 8" then.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Can't decide if I should laugh or shake my head at that.
> 
> My personal experience and observation, for whatever it's worth - Chinese bracelet suppliers must think everyone outside China has a wrist from 7"-9". The average is actually around 7". But time and again, I've seen Chinese-made bracelets which were just enormous, and all too often, they didn't have enough removable links to size a bracelet for smaller wrists.
> 
> ...


You should have just started telling them that westerners actually wear their watches on their ankles now. They might have believed the 8" then.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Which sub would you all vote for as most versatile? I'm thinking Dolphin Ice. Having a hard time imagining any _reasonable_ strap selection that would look bad with it.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3-1-1 said:


> Which sub would you all vote for as most versatile? I'm thinking Dolphin Ice. Having a hard time imagining any _reasonable_ strap selection that would look bad with it.


Silver dials are probably the ultimate strap monsters. You could easily wear something like Chris Ward's midnight blue shell cordovan strap with that, and it would look _great_, as would all of the typical tan/brown/black colors. Greens and reds would also look good. Probably the only color I _wouldn't_ use with it is a gray strap, bit too monochromatic.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

This one, most of them, I still enjoy them the most on steel bracelets.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I think I'll agree with the Nacken Modern Black. A little more toolish but, man, what a strap monster - and a little less going on than say the Odin (which I love).


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Ultimate strap monster = Atticus

I could do any strap/bracelet combo with the NTH sub except for shiny leather because of the rotating bezel which the Atticus lacks.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I have owned or handled the Amphion, Nacken Modern Black, Nacken Vintage Blue, Oberon, Santa Cruz, Santa Fe, Barracuda Vintage Black, Tikuna, and, I dunno, I think some others. For pure versatility, the Nacken Modern Black is the best of the bunch. Others have their appeal, to be sure, but the Nacken Modern Black, in that crispy clean monochrome, can do anything.

I had the original in a hotel room a few streets away from doc's house at the time, and what happens in those hotel rooms, stays in those hotel rooms.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

hwa said:


> I have owned or handled the Amphion, Nacken Modern Black, Nacken Vintage Blue, Oberon, Santa Cruz, Santa Fe, Barracuda Vintage Black, Tikuna, and, I dunno, I think some others. For pure versatility, the Nacken Modern Black is the best of the bunch. Others have their appeal, to be sure, but the Nacken Modern Black, in that crispy clean monochrome, can do anything.
> 
> I had the original in a hotel room a few streets away from doc's house at the time, and what happens in those hotel rooms, stays in those hotel rooms.


Let me guess, you put it on a pink hello kitty strap?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Tikuna









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Seikogi said:


> Ultimate strap *monster = Atticus*
> 
> I could do any strap/bracelet combo with the NTH sub except for shiny leather because of the rotating bezel which the Atticus lacks.


Excellent foreshadowing as it turns out. Except maybe unicorn is a better description than monster. A beautiful, mythical thing that doesn't exist. :-(

Hopefully it does someday.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Seikogi said:


> Let me guess, you put it on a pink hello kitty strap?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## reVidix (Jul 20, 2018)

Double post


----------



## reVidix (Jul 20, 2018)

On the clasp subject, i think the nth sub one is very very good, a lot better then any other micro's i have, the silverwatchco one especialy is very cheap and don't feel secure anymore.
The best clasp for a diver to me is the BB58 one, it's slim, short, very durable (thanks ceramic bearing) and just get the work done in the simplest manner. 
and tbh it wouldn't be fair to compare it to the nth sub one
Btw doc, it's been nearly a year i have the nacken renegade, still loving it even tho it doesn't get much wrist these days as i'm still in honeymoon phase with the tudor


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

3WR said:


> Excellent foreshadowing as it turns out. Except maybe unicorn is a better description than monster. A beautiful, mythical thing that doesn't exist. :-(
> 
> Hopefully it does someday.


I did not pre order as I am going to spend quite some money for movement service and zaratsu polishing next year. (Bought a vintage Seiko crystal that I searched for over a year for 100USD recently !  )

Nonetheless I have 100% confidence that Rusty will sort this out and release a very fine watch next year.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

dp


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3-1-1 said:


> Which sub would you all vote for as most versatile? I'm thinking Dolphin Ice. Having a hard time imagining any _reasonable_ strap selection that would look bad with it.


It's hard to argue with monochrome colorways as being more versatile. Certainly the basic white-on-black Nacken Modern Black would be a strong contender, and perhaps a case could be made for the Dolphin Ice.

I had a Nacken Modern Black in my collection for a while. Versatile or not, I didn't wear it enough to keep it. I seem to have a lot of blue in my wardrobe, and tend to match my watch to what I'm wearing, so the Nacken Modern Blue has proven itself fairly versatile for me.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

3-1-1 said:


> Which sub would you all vote for as most versatile? I'm thinking Dolphin Ice. Having a hard time imagining any _reasonable_ strap selection that would look bad with it.


I'd say any black dial and black bezel Subs would be very versatile. Nacken modern black or Scorpene black look great with any kind of straps. White dial like the Nazario Sauro is also quite versatile but not as versatile as black, imo.

My Scorpene blue looks good in brown strap of any shades. On the other hand, the Dolphin magenta is such a PITA when it comes to strap. Black strap looks okay with that watch, but any other straps would be terrible.

And here's my Nazario Sauro...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

reVidix said:


> On the clasp subject, i think the nth sub one is very very good, a lot better then any other micro's i have, the silverwatchco one especialy is very cheap and don't feel secure anymore.
> The best clasp for a diver to me is the BB58 one, it's slim, short, very durable (thanks ceramic bearing) and just get the work done in the simplest manner.
> and tbh it wouldn't be fair to compare it to the nth sub one
> Btw doc, it's been nearly a year i have the nacken renegade, still loving it even tho it doesn't get much wrist these days as i'm still in honeymoon phase with the tudor.


Thanks for the kind words, my friend. I'm happy that you're happy with the Renegade, and the new clasp.

Congrats on getting the BB58, as I understand they're not easy to come by. I know Tudor makes a *very* nice watch, and I don't doubt the clasp is on par with the rest of the package.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Thanks for the kind words, my friend. I'm happy that you're happy with the Renegade, and the new clasp.
> 
> Congrats on getting the BB58, as I understand they're not easy to come by. I know Tudor makes a *very* nice watch, and I don't doubt the clasp is on par with the rest of the package.


Me thinks this is a US / Asia thing?

The fancy ADs here who have Tudor/Rolex seem to have plenty SS Rolex models available and I have also seen 58s for sale. Can't remember if I have seen a Rolex sub but I'll check when I go shopping next time.

Maybe they don't sell to "new" customers?

They certainly wanted to sell me the SS OP when I tried it.


----------



## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

Seikogi said:


> Me thinks this is a US / Asia thing?
> 
> The fancy ADs here who have Tudor/Rolex seem to have plenty SS Rolex models available and I have also seen 58s for sale. Can't remember if I have seen a Rolex sub but I'll check when I go shopping next time.
> 
> ...


Plenty of BB58's on strap in the US, on bracelet is the tough to find one.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> It's hard to argue with monochrome colorways as being more versatile. Certainly the basic white-on-black Nacken Modern Black would be a strong contender, and perhaps a case could be made for the Dolphin Ice.
> 
> I had a Nacken Modern Black in my collection for a while. Versatile or not, I didn't wear it enough to keep it. I seem to have a lot of blue in my wardrobe, and tend to match my watch to what I'm wearing, so the Nacken Modern Blue has proven itself fairly versatile for me.


What matches cheesesteak-stained t-shirts?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

hwa said:


> What matches cheesesteak-stained t-shirts?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fits of trouser bursting laughter.........


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

basso4735 said:


> Plenty of BB58's on strap in the US, on bracelet is the tough to find one.


Interesting, I thought Tudor had the same "all sports watches must come on bracelet" rule as Rolex.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I haven't been keeping up with the all the latest "can't get the Rolex/Tudor I want" news because I don't want one.

But, just seeing the comments in passing, my understanding has been that a lot of people can't find (or can't seem to buy) the Rolex/Tudor they want. If that situation has improved, cool.

When I was in England in June, I spotted a Tudor AD in Exeter. They had an entire display window full of Black Bays, in what looked like all its variations. I asked if they had the BB58, but they didn't, and gave me the impression there were none to be found at any AD in the UK. I'd only asked because I considered buying one just to flip it for a profit in the USA.

I know, that sort of speculation makes me part of the problem. But it's not *MY* problem, is it?

I don't remember exactly when my last visit to the local Tourneau was, but it was earlier this year. The display cases were all but overflowing with models from most brands, but the entire wall of Rolex display cases was shockingly sparse. I didn't see any Submariners, Seadwellers, Explorers, or GMTs. Not even a Milgauss. They were happy to show me the butt-ugly AirKing, and any number of ho-hum Datejusts or OP's.

Their Tudor display was much smaller, but more densely packed. But, again, no BB58. The guy rolled his eyes as he was telling me it was effectively unobtainium. He was eager to show me the BB chrono, the Heritage chrono, the ho-hum Ranger, the meh North Flag, and the full size BB on a strap (no bracelet version in store).

I have a recurring discussion / debate with one of my retailers. He sees that too many of the well-known brands he carries in his stores make way too many models, and variations thereof, most of which don't sell all that well, but not enough of the handful of models/variations which everyone seems to want. He thinks they should just concentrate their production on the few that are in demand, and abandon the rest.

On the one hand, it makes sense, and I'm inclined to agree, to a point. 

But on the other hand, McDonald's made a name for itself making burgers, yet their menu has expanded with a dizzying array of non-burger items. It seems to me that some sort of 80-20 product mix makes sense. Make 80% of your products burgers for people who want burgers, and make 20% of your products something else for the days they don't want a burger, or the people who never want a burger, but get dragged into McDonald's by someone who does want a burger.

My business growth coach is a process engineer, and veteran of manufacturing, having worked in production at GE and 3M, and as president of a company that launched 22 products in Europe in 2 years. I've explained how the watch industry works (or, as the case may be, how it doesn't work) to him, and it hurts his head. 

The challenge with watches is that the design-to-delivery cycle is way too long, and the future demand too difficult to predict, to implement rapid revision of a product mix, or sustain a perfect balance between supply and demand, and few if any companies have a robust and effective mechanism for incorporating customer feedback into the product development process. 

This is why you can't always get the watch you want, and the watches no one wants (at least, not at full price) get dumped at a discount.


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

Heads up on green and blue fitted rubber straps - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZBXGHR2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

I bought the green to check the fit and just ordered the blue also. I have a black Zealande rubber strap that I bought before their prices got stupid expensive. Virtually the same feel and quality.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> What matches cheesesteak-stained t-shirts?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What doesn't?



Ragl said:


> Fits of trouser bursting laughter.........


OK, boomer.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Plenty of new BB58s on Chrono24, slightly under MSRP if you're willing to import one. The "unobtainable" BB58 bubble has definitely popped.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This dropped, earlier today.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/brot...t-37-a-5077403-post50506945.html#post50506945









47-piece LE collab with Kiger MilSub.

Contact Kiger directly for purchase info.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Happy Holidays, Doc.











Don't blame me...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> Happy Holidays, Doc.
> 
> View attachment 14697361
> 
> ...


I blame everyone.

No one is innocent.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> This dropped, earlier today.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/brot...t-37-a-5077403-post50506945.html#post50506945
> 
> ...


Wait a minute. Isn't Kiger 253 friends shy of qualifying for a custom order?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Wait a minute. Isn't Kiger 253 friends shy of qualifying for a custom order?


That's a unique dial/handset combo, not something completely custom. Doc routinely does 50 pieces of this or that. There also weren't 300 Carolinas or Catalinas.


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

Tikuna - a review:
Watch Review : NTH Tikuna.....With A Big "H" Or A Small "h"? - Scottish Watches


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> 47-piece LE collab with Kiger MilSub.
> 
> Contact Kiger directly for purchase info.


How? Google produces no leads.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Bradjhomes said:


> Tikuna - a review:
> Watch Review : NTH Tikuna.....With A Big "H" Or A Small "h"? - Scottish Watches


Thanks for the write up!
For me the Tikuna is one of those watches that grow on you very slowly. I was like "meh" when I saw it for the first time. But the more I look at it, the more intrigued I got. I really dig those hands and double red lines, pretty "experimental". I like it.

The only thing bothers me a bit is that the markers/numerals seem green-ish, I'd prefer them to be pure white. I don't know...maybe it's only in photos but I have yet to get over it.


----------



## reVidix (Jul 20, 2018)

Seikogi said:


> Me thinks this is a US / Asia thing?
> 
> The fancy ADs here who have Tudor/Rolex seem to have plenty SS Rolex models available and I have also seen 58s for sale. Can't remember if I have seen a Rolex sub but I'll check when I go shopping next time.
> 
> ...


i would guess wait time are a bit lower in europe,
i was able to try a nato one they had, and they had a bracelet one on order for a few months.
on the ad relationship thing, they were very down to earth, i'm young and it's the first ever thing i buy from them, although i did a short internship with their watchmaker nearly a year ago and the watchmaker has become a good friend of mine since, but it really didn't feel like it changed anything.

ps : Patiently waiting on a new tropics run !


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Bradjhomes said:


> Tikuna - a review:
> Watch Review : NTH Tikuna.....With A Big "H" Or A Small "h"? - Scottish Watches


Nicely stated and we'll written opinions.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Oh. No. You. Didn't. Dicktionary...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Wait a minute. Isn't Kiger 253 friends shy of qualifying for a custom order?


500-piece MOQ is for cases. 300 for bracelets. 50 for dials and other small components.

It's an NTH Sub case and bracelet, so no need to hit 300 or 500. He wanted to buy 47 numbered cases plus 3 dials, and sell them on his own, rather than ask me to take 47 people's orders.

Pretty easy to say "yes" to a request like that.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> How? Google produces no leads.


I think he mostly sells through his FB page, but you could PM him through the forum.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If anyone has a red-dial Orthos I or II they're thinking of selling, there's a guy on FB in search of one. I can make an introduction.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That was a very well-done review, Brad. I've got your page bookmarked to check out some of your other reviews!


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> Oh. No. You. Didn't. Dicktionary...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For those of us that dont keep everything on a winder.....

Its just one less step when we grab a watch; wind, set time and go, vs having to cycle through the date.

It doesnt keep me really from buying a watch, but I am also more likely to sell it down the road.

When that new Scorpene with the 12 hour bezel comes out, the no date will take the slot in my box for travel watch


----------



## Senorzebra (Jun 8, 2019)

Good review on the Tikuna. I'm still saving to buy my first NTH (used or new), but reviews like yours are making me question whether I want a barracuda black or a tikuna.


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

My Skipjack is ridiculously accurate.









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



wtma said:


> Thanks for the write up!
> For me the Tikuna is one of those watches that grow on you very slowly. I was like "meh" when I saw it for the first time. But the more I look at it, the more intrigued I got. I really dig those hands and double red lines, pretty "experimental". I like it.
> 
> The only thing bothers me a bit is that the markers/numerals seem green-ish, I'd prefer them to be pure white. I don't know...maybe it's only in photos but I have yet to get over it.


Thanks.

The indices certainly aren't pure white. Not a problem for me, but if that's what you want then I can see the hesitation.


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

JLS36 said:


> Nicely stated and we'll written opinions.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Thanks


----------



## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

Toonces said:


> That was a very well-done review, Brad. I've got your page bookmarked to check out some of your other reviews!


Thanks.

That was the first review I've done for Scottish Watches, but lots more on Worn&Wound


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> How? Google produces no leads.


Go here:

https://www.facebook.com/KIGERMILSU...wdLSxbDD5SpeWECdAhpCWRHV1QNkckM&fref=mentions

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> Go here:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/KIGERMILSU...wdLSxbDD5SpeWECdAhpCWRHV1QNkckM&fref=mentions
> 
> ...


Charlie don't surf.

And YankeeExpress don't do Facebook.

C'mon...it's in his sig!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Without a nice picture, this won’t have the same sizzle. But I just have to say that the Skipjack w/ date is a straight up masterpiece. 

Have been wearing one for weeks and can’t get over how much I like it.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Charlie don't surf.
> 
> And YankeeExpress don't do Facebook.
> 
> C'mon...it's in his sig!


When Yankee realized its on FB


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Help NTH brothers and sisters, was just checking the time on my Näcken and noticed the clasp safety lock part has come loose. Is it fixed with a springbar normally? Special one or just a standard? 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## Digital_1 (Jan 6, 2014)

Recently picked this Tikuna up and I am so glad that I did. Really love this piece. Any one have any suggestions for a fitted black rubber strap?


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Digital_1 said:


> Recently picked this Tikuna up and I am so glad that I did. Really love this piece. Any one have any suggestions for a fitted black rubber strap?
> 
> View attachment 14701229


Pricey but awesome. Monta rubber.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

Hornet99 said:


> Help NTH brothers and sisters, was just checking the time on my Näcken and noticed the clasp safety lock part has come loose. Is it fixed with a springbar normally? Special one or just a standard?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


A pic would help. I can caliper one of mine once we know which pin.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Hornet99 said:


> Help NTH brothers and sisters, was just checking the time on my Näcken and noticed the clasp safety lock part has come loose. Is it fixed with a springbar normally? Special one or just a standard?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


I want to say 18mm but I think you're talking about the fold over clasp part?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Just got the 'Ghost' in a few days ago! Love it. The BOR bracelet complements it very well!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Help NTH brothers and sisters, was just checking the time on my Näcken and noticed the clasp safety lock part has come loose. Is it fixed with a springbar normally? Special one or just a standard?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Do you mean the flip lock? It's held shut with a friction pin. We have some. Shoot us an email.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Bktaper (Oct 22, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hornet99 said:


> Help NTH brothers and sisters, was just checking the time on my Näcken and noticed the clasp safety lock part has come loose. Is it fixed with a springbar normally? Special one or just a standard?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Never mind. I was too late with the answer

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Do you mean the flip lock? It's held shut with a friction pin. We have some. Shoot us an email.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Yep, flip lock on the clasp. Was in trauma when this happened and out on taxi duty taking my daughter to a party.....










.....lucky I caught the flip lock before it fell off as I'd have not noticed this and lost it. There would have been crying then.

Email you or would Page & Cooper have them?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Yep, flip lock on the clasp. Was in trauma when this happened and out on taxi duty taking my daughter to a party.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They don't have them. We do. Contact us. We'll get you sorted.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

Digital_1 said:


> Recently picked this Tikuna up and I am so glad that I did. Really love this piece. Any one have any suggestions for a fitted black rubber strap?
> 
> View attachment 14701229











https://www.watch-band-center.com/watchstrap-p31453h254s1470-Watch-strap-Redding-.html


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> They don't have them. We do. Contact us. We'll get you sorted.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Thanks Chris |>


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

3WR said:


> Without a nice picture, this won't have the same sizzle. But I just have to say that the Skipjack w/ date is a straight up masterpiece.
> 
> Have been wearing one for weeks and can't get over how much I like it.


Felt like unfinished business without a photo so I snapped a real winner. And then one more in focus.


----------



## househalfman (Nov 9, 2016)

Back on the NTH train...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

If anyone has a DevilRay they plan to keep, but no intentions of ever wearing the bracelet, please let me know. 

The three DR's we recently sold on straps were assembled that way because we ran out of bracelets, and I've had guys who wanted to buy the watches asking me about the bracelets.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Digital_1 said:


> Recently picked this Tikuna up and I am so glad that I did. Really love this piece. Any one have any suggestions for a fitted black rubber strap?
> 
> View attachment 14701229


Anything that fits a 40mm Rolex sub case, Ginault, Monta, Seiko Alpinist, those should all fit. I have a Ginault, Monta OK and NTH sub and the bracelets all swap, I also have a Horus rubber strap for Rolex and that and the Monta rubber fit fantastic.

So basically. lots of options


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So has anyone picked up one of the Winfield quartz Mission Timer One watches? Any first hand impressions?










Picture for attention only.


----------



## gokce (May 10, 2018)

docvail said:


> If anyone has a DevilRay they plan to keep, but no intentions of ever wearing the bracelet, please let me know.
> 
> The three DR's we recently sold on straps were assembled that way because we ran out of bracelets, and I've had guys who wanted to buy the watches asking me about the bracelets.


I have an unused, still in its wraps DevilRay bracelet. I am keeping the watch but happy to part with the bracelet. Note that I am in the UK.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Seikogi said:


> When Yankee realized its on FB
> 
> View attachment 14700545


Was able to order a Kiger milsub without going near fb by friends on the BSHT thread. It was shipped today and should arrive shortly.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Digital_1 said:


> Recently picked this Tikuna up and I am so glad that I did. Really love this piece...
> 
> View attachment 14701229


Snagged the Tikuna with date that was on f29 pre-owned and it arrived today. Another unique looking NTH sub with a good foundation of thin case, bright lume and highbeat movement.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> So has anyone picked up one of the Winfield quartz Mission Timer One watches? Any first hand impressions?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

gokce said:


> I have an unused, still in its wraps DevilRay bracelet. I am keeping the watch but happy to part with the bracelet. Note that I am in the UK.


PM inbound.

For anyone else, contact this guy - https://www.facebook.com/groups/JanisTradingCoFans/permalink/511765866103496/


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ugh, damned dirty dubble post.

Instead of a random pic from my computer, here's a pic I was looking for some time back, and couldn't find, but just found it now.

This is the doodle Francis (@bombfish) of Tangramatic drew when I commissioned him to do a caseback drawing for the never produced Lew & Huey "Spyder". Note the inclusion of the 3-headed Cerberus from my avatar, which is the caseback he did for the model of the same name...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Was able to order a Kiger milsub without going near fb by friends on the BSHT thread. It was shipped today and should arrive shortly.


Serious questions...

1. Do you even know how many watches you own?

2. How many, if so?

3. How many from L&H / NTH? Is that the most you own from any one manufacturer/brand?

4. Where do you keep them all?

5. Do you ever sell one?

6. If not, is the plan to just be buried with them, or are you gonna hold the world's most kick-a$$ watch-geek yard-sale when you feel your time coming, or is there some other plan yet to be set in motion?


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

1. Not off the top of my head.

2. Probably around 20.

3. Two. No. But probably the brand I've tried the most (the Subs, in particular).

4. A 12-slot box, two rolls, and a padded square thing. I need a bigger box.

5. Yep. But I'm starting to have more difficulty with that for several reasons (refined tastes, limited prior releases, etc.). So I have to occasionally rank order my keepers in my mind for the hypothetical "should really sell some for these ones."

6. Haven't thought about it 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

docvail said:


> Serious questions...
> 
> 1. Do you even know how many watches you own?
> 
> 2. How many, if so?


I wouldn't be surprised if he has more than 1,000.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Serious questions...
> 
> 3. How many from L&H / NTH? Is that the most you own from any one manufacturer/brand?


I have seen yankee's impressive G-Shock solar collection on f17, pretty sure that trumps the NTH count.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> 1. Not off the top of my head.
> 
> 2. Probably around 20.
> 
> ...


All good, but I was curious to know Yankee's responses, given that he appears to have literally - not figuratively - bought all the watches.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> I have seen yankee's impressive G-Shock solar collection on f17, pretty sure that trumps the NTH count.


It would be fun to know how much he's spent, and compare that to other things that money could have bought, or just take random guesses about it...

"For what you spent on watches, you could have had 3 jet skis, a house in the Caribbean, and a really nice pair of hand-made leather sandals."

"You could have bought up all the sovereign debt of Paraguay."

"You could have paid a professional man-servant to cater to your every impulse and whim, like P-Diddy has."

"You could have cured cancer, you bastard, but it's cool, enjoy your G-shocks."


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> All good, but I was curious to know Yankee's responses, given that he appears to have literally - not figuratively - bought all the watches.


Gotcha. Wasn't following the flow of the thread. Just hopped in to procrastinate for a moment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Gotcha. Wasn't following the flow of the thread. Just hopped in to procrastinate for a moment.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No worries. Feel free to make a guess about what Yankee could have done with all that money had he not spent it all on watches.


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> This is the doodle Francis (@bombfish) of Tangramatic drew when I commissioned him to do a caseback drawing for the never produced Lew & Huey "Spyder". Note the inclusion of the 3-headed Cerberus from my avatar, which is the caseback he did for the model of the same name...
> 
> View attachment 14706589


This is the first time I can say I'd buy a watch for the caseback. The Cerebus head distracted by the snail really makes it.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> It would be fun to know how much he's spent, and compare that to other things that money could have bought, or just take random guesses about it...
> 
> ."


I get the feeling that watch collectors are rarely participating here? Perhaps they lurk brand specific forums or communicate old school via email with each other...

I know there are a few guys on f10 who have collections probably in the thousands (and a website with documentation).

A famous G-Shock collector "sjors" used to be a mod on f17 who probably has a 1k collection. So in the realm of watch collectors being collectors I doubt that yankees numbers would be considered unusual.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Sussa said:


> This is the first time I can say I'd buy a watch for the caseback. The Cerebus head distracted by the snail really makes it.


I liked that one, too. People who can draw really impress me. That head is maybe a dozen pretty simple lines. And it totally captures the spirit of a distracted dog.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Serious questions...
> 
> 1. Do you even know how many watches you own?
> 
> ...


I would sooooo love to know Doc, but he just never talks. Maybe he's not real......


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> If anyone has a DevilRay they plan to keep, but no intentions of ever wearing the bracelet, please let me know.
> 
> The three DR's we recently sold on straps were assembled that way because we ran out of bracelets, and I've had guys who wanted to buy the watches asking me about the bracelets.


In true Chris fashion, I have a devil ray bracelet for sale. It is in great condition and comes with a watch!

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

This is like half of my 125 watch collection, retail at over $100,000. Not that i paid full retail for most of it. I look for great second hand bargains.

For the NTH L&H brands, I have a modern Nacken black with date, Carolina, Spectre II, Devil Ray, and a franken-Orthos blue dial.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> In true Chris fashion, I have a devil ray bracelet for sale. It is in great condition and comes with a watch!
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


Kind of the opposite - I sold the watches without the bracelets in this case - but that recent "Dan's workshop" video has inspired requests for parts we absolutely do not sell, like cases.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> No worries. Feel free to make a guess about what Yankee could have done with all that money had he not spent it all on watches.


"With what he spent on watches, he could have launched his own microbrand."


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> "With what he spent on watches, he could have launched his own microbrand."


And sold watches 'til he went broke.

That's an old joke about the farmer who won the lottery. When asked what he planned to do with his winnings, he said "I'm just going to keep farming until it's all gone."


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> "With what he spent on watches, he could have launched his own microbrand."


Several brands........


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MikeyT said:


> And sold watches 'til he went broke.
> 
> That's an old joke about the farmer who won the lottery. When asked what he planned to do with his winnings, he said "I'm just going to keep farming until it's all gone."


How do you make a million dollars in publishing?
Start with 10 million dollars...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

The "make a small fortune by starting with a large fortune" paradigm, in my observation, is true in many cases, but often they're cases of idiots with more money than business sense investing in businesses they shouldn't be, and making poor decisions, usually because they've got more money than sense, and are used to throwing money at problems, as opposed to talent, creativity, persistence, etc.

This is why you see brands pissing away fortunes on celebrity endorsements, sponsoring race teams and sporting events, blowing obscene amounts attending expensive events, etc. None of that $hlt moves product.

I didn't have a large fortune when I started. Far from it. I was well on my way to being broke. I may not have a small fortune (yet), but I own a business that supports my family, and I'm certain it's worth more than I invested in it.

Sometimes, having lots of money at your disposal can be a terrible thing. Sometimes, not having vast resources at your disposal forces you to come up with smarter solutions to vexing problems...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Mmmmmhmm, speaking of nasa and lots of money being a terrible thing... How's the Congressional Pork Launch System doing? Still going strong, eh?


----------



## nemorior (Jan 1, 2017)

Fun fact: both NASA and the Russians used pencils for manned space missions in the beginning (though NASA bought pretty expensive pencils at the beginning for more than 100$ apiece). 
Only later in the mid 60s did NASA switch to a "space pen" (pencils are not ideal for space missions for various reasons). That space pen, however, was developed by a private company with private funding (i.e. not NASA or state funding) and later the pens were purchased by NASA for less than 4-5$ per piece. 
For a more detailed versions see e.g. here: https://www.thespacereview.com/article/613/1

Also: here's a photo of a watch.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Since Doc turned me on to this beaut in this thread, I thought I'd post a follow up about his pal Chip nailing it.

Halfway unwrapped:










Will grab a bro shot with the DevilRay soon!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> The "make a small fortune by starting with a large fortune" paradigm, in my observation, is true in many cases, but often they're cases of idiots with more money than business sense investing in businesses they shouldn't be, and making poor decisions, usually because they've got more money than sense, and are used to throwing money at problems, as opposed to talent, creativity, persistence, etc.
> 
> This is why you see brands pissing away fortunes on celebrity endorsements, sponsoring race teams and sporting events, blowing obscene amounts attending expensive events, etc. None of that $hlt moves product.
> 
> ...


Ok, so I have to correct the record here. The END of the "Russian space pencil" story is that the Russians quickly discovered that the highly conductive graphite dust from their pencils became problematic when it floated around the capsule and got into the electronic components. At which point they started using NASA's pen too.

Turns out that the people who figured out to put the first man on the moon were smarter than the guys who made Chernobyl happen.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Coriolanus said:


> Ok, so I have to correct the record here. The END of the "Russian space pencil" story is that the Russians quickly discovered that the highly conductive graphite dust from their pencils became problematic when it floated around the capsule and got into the electronic components. At which point they started using NASA's pen too.
> 
> Turns out that the people who figured out to put the first man on the moon were smarter than the guys who made Chernobyl happen.


That's an extremely simplified point of view taking two unrelated events out of context.

Besides, it was a certain german gentleman who worked for the dude with the weird beard who was the head engineer behind the rocket or should I say "Wunderwaffe".


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Seikogi said:


> That's an extremely simplified point of view taking two unrelated events out of context.
> 
> Besides, it was a certain german gentleman who worked for the dude with the weird beard who was the head engineer behind the rocket or should I say "Wunderwaffe".


They're related in that NASA tried to think of everything that could possibly go wrong, whereas Chernobyl was a stunning failure to consider what could go wrong.

And yes, turns out that the U.S. managed to find something more productive for Von Braun to do than lob V2 rockets at London. Von Braun was a genius, without question. If he weren't, he would have found himself swinging at the end of a rope at Nuremberg along with all of his former pals. Or is that just another extremely simplified point of view?


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Coriolanus said:


> They're related in that NASA tried to think of everything that could possibly go wrong, whereas Chernobyl was a stunning failure to consider what could go wrong.
> 
> And yes, turns out that the U.S. managed to find something more productive for Von Braun to do than lob V2 rockets at London. Von Braun was a genius, without question. If he weren't, he would have found himself swinging at the end of a rope at Nuremberg along with all of his former pals. Or is that just another extremely simplified point of view?


"They're related in that NASA tried to think of everything that could possibly go wrong" - as is any other space program in the world?

"whereas Chernobyl was a stunning failure to consider what could go wrong." - absolutely, a fine example of incompetence

Things go wrong here and there and there are smart people everywhere, thus I disagree with your simplification.

"And yes, turns out that the U.S. managed to find " - yup, its simplified but quite accurate imo.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Back on topic


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Y'all keep arguing about NASA's space pens.

Whatever keeps y'all from telling me about clasps and whatnot.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Coriolanus said:


> Ok, so I have to correct the record here. The END of the "Russian space pencil" story is that the Russians quickly discovered that the highly conductive graphite dust from their pencils became problematic when it floated around the capsule and got into the electronic components. At which point they started using NASA's pen too.
> 
> Turns out that the people who figured out to put the first man on the moon were smarter than the guys who made Chernobyl happen.


We're also the ones so smart that we mothballed the Oak Ridge Thorium plant in the late '60s, because it _couldn't_ make weapons grade material as a byproduct of operation. If we had given the world Thorium, there would never have been a Fukushima.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

This thread is the best. Space pens turned into




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Y'all keep arguing about NASA's space pens.
> 
> Whatever keeps y'all from telling me about clasps and whatnot.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


If NASA designed its own clasp, it'd have a diver's extension.

Omega is dropping the ball.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I really want to get one of those Gagarin commemorative Sturmanskie watches so I can be all, Well, not quite first watch in space, eh? in Speedmoon threads...

Which will inevitably be met with multiple Very Serious WOTs about why the moon landing was so much more important, NASA equipment testing routines, etc. All in an effort to hype a Swiss brand watch. 

Say what you want about the tenets of Soviet Socialism, at least they used a Soviet watch on their historic first man in space mission...


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

....









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

Odin back on an olive green nato for hump day. Yeeeeaaaahhhh!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

This BOR bracelet really dresses up a watch!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> I really want to get one of those Gagarin commemorative Sturmanskie watches so I can be all, Well, not quite first watch in space, eh? in Speedmoon threads...
> 
> Which will inevitably be met with multiple Very Serious WOTs about why the moon landing was so much more important, NASA equipment testing routines, etc. All in an effort to hype a Swiss brand watch.
> 
> Say what you want about the tenets of Soviet Socialism, at least they used a Soviet watch on their historic first man in space mission...


I think having an original Strela would be more interesting, since it actually went outside the capsule. There's also the fact that there's some dispute as to what exactly Gagarin was wearing. Also amusing that the Navitimer that went up and did fine in space was then damaged by plain old water....and that Navis still have that problem.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...update on the ongoing saga of the XL Sub...

First, a brief (I swear) prologue...

Despite the French wine and smelly cheeses appearance I put on, I'm not made of money. The pre-orders we did between September and November 2018 were the last time I asked anyone else to finance my production costs. 

Since then, NTH has been self-sufficient, which just means the business has been generating enough cash flow to both pay for production and pay to keep me in French wine and smelly cheeses.

After delivering on the November 2018 release, and the smaller January 2019 release, I committed to a LARGE production of 40mm Subs early this year. I do mean large. Huge. Every 40mm Sub we've delivered since then, and the remaining ~400 we'll be delivering over the next 3-4 months has been from that production. 

We've been working on other ideas, particularly the XL Sub, but...

1. Although I reckon NTH has fared better than many other brands this year, sales for the entire industry seemed to grind to a screeching halt around mid-year. Because of that huge investment I made in production, I wasn't able to make anything else in the meantime. So, production of anything had to wait until we could work our way through selling what we already had in production - and paid for.

2. Along the way, I got side-tracked by a number of other projects (like Microbrand University, the Philly GTG, Doc's House Calls, a trip to England, moving my office, and sponsoring District Time), and the requirements of heading up a family (dealing with consistently rotten kids, a frequently salty wife, and increasingly demanding dog).

3. Development of the XL Sub was the first time we did things in an order reverse of what we usually do. Usually, Aaron and I will figure out the 2D front view first, then Rusty and I will hammer out the case design. This time, Rusty and I started with the case, and took our time to get it right, before Aaron and I even started looking at dials, handsets and bezels. I'm not sure I can adequately explain it, but by the time I connected with Aaron, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with the design, and with everything else I had going on this year, progress has been slow.

And then...Swatchamageddon happened. ("ETA Apocalypse"? "Movement Mayhem"? You see what I'm going for here.)

For various technical reasons, the XL Sub was going to be more expensive than the 40mm Subs. Rusty and I designed the case to house the 9015, in order to keep the costs/price down. 

With the 40mm Subs at $650-$675, and knowing that my costs would be going up by the time we started production, my goal was to keep the price at $700-$725 retail. That was a "scary" number at the time (mid-year), given that we sold the Tropics and DevilRay for $700-$725, with a more expensive Swiss movement, and some other nice features the XL Sub wouldn't have. Maybe part of my reluctance to commit to working on the design was my sub-conscious uncertainty about the future ability to sell a $700 watch with a 9015 in it, given how much chirping there is about the 40mm Subs being "overpriced".

But, with the cost increases we've been seeing, there's zero chance we'll hit that number. No way. 

Anyone who followed the Atticus story knows we got blindsided with a surprise cost increase, after working on that project for months, thinking we knew what the costs and price would be. If you followed that thread, or if you've been keeping up with the Event Horizon 2020 thread, you know my thoughts about the whole mess. If not, the short version is I have no idea what will happen with costs next year, but it could be ugly, really ugly.

I saw Rusty's costs. Even if we swapped a 9015 in place of the SW200, his costs would have been higher than what I've been paying to produce the NTH Subs, despite the Subs having a more complex, three-piece case, and 3x the WR. There's no way the XL Sub, even with a 9015, will be $700. Just no way. 

Like I said in the Atticus thread - it isn't just rising movement costs, due to what Swatch/ETA are doing. It's rising labor costs everywhere they make watches, as well as rising raw materials costs, rising shipping costs, etc. I honestly didn't realize how much I've benefited from increasing our production sizes with NTH, and starting as early as we did. My OEM has been holding my costs down for a while, but they simply can't do that any longer.

For me and NTH, this is a perfect storm scenario. I know that with the industry-wide sales slowdown since mid-year, there are still many brands with a whole heaping ton of unsold inventory out there. Just look at all the discounting and sales happening. 

All those watches were produced before costs started to spike, so they're all priced lower than I can price anything I make starting now. No brand owner in his right mind is going to raise prices just because they see other brands' prices going up next year, not if they're still struggling to sell what they produced this year (or, as the case may be, last year, or even earlier). 

By selling through what we've been producing (read: we've been doing a pretty good job aligning supply with demand), we're forced to produce new models at higher cost, and price them higher than what other brands will be selling (stuff produced earlier, at a lower cost), at least until all that unsold inventory gets flushed from the market.

And...I hate that situation. As such, I've put any project using the Miyota or a Swiss movement on hold until we see the dust settle, at least a little. We'll continue to develop the XL Sub, so that we can get it into production eventually, but I don't know when that will be. For now, we've got ~400 of the 40mm Subs coming over the next few months, and I'm thinking about what other projects make sense to work on.

So...there you go. The XL Sub will be here when it gets here. In the meantime, enjoy the waning days of big bang for your little buck. Smoke 'em if ya got 'em. Get those cheap-as-chips watches before they're all gone.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

View attachment DSC_8706.jpg


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

docvail said:


> The pre-orders we did between September and November 2018 were the last time I asked anyone else to finance my production costs.


I see what you did there. Well played.



docvail said:


> 2. Along the way, I got side-tracked by a number of other projects (like Microbrand University, the Philly GTG, Doc's House Calls, a trip to England, moving my office, and sponsoring District Time), and the requirements of heading up a family (dealing with consistently rotten kids, a frequently salty wife, and increasingly demanding dog).


Don't forget that rather unpleasant and unnecessary controversy with Ginault and Mr. Chow, or whatever his name is.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



92gli said:


> I see what you did there. Well played.
> 
> Don't forget that rather unpleasant and unnecessary controversy with Ginault and Mr. Chow, or whatever his name is.


Actually, NTH'S self-sufficiency started before that. We started that production in June 2018.

The only pre-orders we had before starting that production were for the TGV Catalinas, and not all of them. Sometime after starting production, we sold 60 pre-orders for the Näcken Modern Blue. All of those and the Catalina were sold through Watch Gauge, so the money NTH got wasn't nearly enough to finance the whole production. I think we did the 40 BSHT Carolina sales in July.

I was expecting delivery of that production in October. We started taking pre-orders in September because people wouldn't stop asking me to shut up and take their money, and my retailers wanted to start taking deposits. My plan was to wait until we could start shipping, but I caved to the pressure.

Trying to manage a world-wide pre-order across multiple stores was just too much hassle, so I decided that would be the last time. I told all the retailers they should just maintain wait lists for new releases from then on.

The Ginault thing ended up being a two-three day time-suck, but blew over after that. It broke on 3 July, and it's not like I would have gotten a lot done on the 4th. The upshot is that I swore off looking in on Reddit and some other forums, which actually frees up time whcih was just being wasted otherwise.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Nice box too


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

The Kiger milfsub?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> The Kiger milfsub?


I see what you did there.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> The Kiger milfsub?


I thought that's what it said too when I glanced at it quickly. Lol. Optical illusion


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So...about that Kiger...

Late last year or early this year, we said we were working on a collaboration, and for a while after, people asked about it. The Kiger "Red Ronin" was it. But, Kiger wanted to keep it under wraps until he was ready to start selling the watches, so we had to keep mum.

And...there you go, the Kiger Ronin MilSub, inspired by the legend of the 47 Ronin, but also by the very rare Oman Submariners, which had similar red logos on their dials.

You can read more about the Oman Sub history here - The Rolex Oman Story


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Oman Submariners, which had similar red logos on their dials.
> 
> You can read more about the Oman Sub history here - The Rolex Oman Story


So basically:

Oman WIS: Rolex we want swords on the dial, they should look cool!

Rolex: Sure, find me 24999 friends and I'll make it happen.

Oman WIS: Hold my oil drill.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> So...about that Kiger...
> 
> Late last year or early this year, we said we were working on a collaboration, and for a while after, people asked about it. The Kiger "Red Ronin" was it. But, Kiger wanted to keep it under wraps until he was ready to start selling the watches, so we had to keep mum.
> 
> ...


The sword hands was an inspired idea.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Friday









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

That Kiger surprised me and looks cool 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Another 'what did I see?'.... 

Looking at JLS pics, swore I saw 'Tijuana'.... guess the milfsub post put my mind in the gutter....


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

10:28AM - Got an email from John Keil with an update that the Amphion Vintage Gilt will be coming in the spring.
10:49AM - Replied with a request to be added to the wait list.

That $**+ is happening.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Got a newsletter from John Kiel at WatchGauge announcing the new Winter/Spring NTH releases. 
January - Dolphin Ice, Scorpene Nomad, Bahia. Also the WatchGauge exclusive Nazario Sauro
March - Amphion Vintage Gilt, Oberon II, Nacken Vintage Black II

Also, that existing inventory of NTH watches at WG is in single digits, and such models "won't be back for quite a while!"

I'd be tempted by the Amphon Vintage Gilt if I didn't already have the Commando. (Both of which feature the newly coined milfsub(tm) hands...). Signed up for the waitlist on the Scorpene Nomad.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

Coriolanus said:


> 10:28AM - Got an email from John Keil with an update that the Amphion Vintage Gilt will be coming in the spring.
> 10:49AM - Replied with a request to be added to the wait list.
> 
> That $**+ is happening.


My pic of the ghost is there!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Quite possibly it's the last chance to grab the Sauro guys, place your pre-order now! It's definitely one of favorite NTH Subs.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Since John mentioned it in that video...

We produced almost 40 different versions of the NTH Subs in the last 13 months. 

NTH retailers have some stock left on about 30 versions, but on average, there are just 7 pieces of any version left - that's combined worldwide numbers, across all retailers - and most retailers only have 1-3 pieces per version, and only 10-15 versions per store. 

We've sold through more than 90% of what we've produced since November 2018, and most of what you've seen in that time won't be produced again any time soon. 

After March/April, the next time you see any of those models, it'll likely be at a higher price.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I had landed on Pytheas as the Atticus I was most interested in. Had forgotten that the Oberon existed and never really spoke to me. Weird.

I like the OII's Nod to Pytheas hands. Is that a larger triangle @ 12? Lume is now whiter? That one might grow on me.

And a Nacken Vintage w/ a date option? Interesting. Would be a tough choice. I was previously convinced NVBlue was the coolest Nacken hands down. New bezel color is darker? May muddy the waters for me. 

Maybe I should Yankeexpress the March group.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Sent John a reply to be put on his Gilt list.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> Sent John a reply to be put on his Gilt list.


Must be a long list. Who doesn't have a little gilty thought now and then?


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

.....if only the Nazario Ghost had a date window at the 6 o'clock position.....the world would be a better place!

Keep up the good work Doc!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

jerseydan31 said:


> .....if only the Nazario Ghost had a date window at the 6 o'clock position.....the world would be a better place!
> 
> Keep up the good work Doc!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fact check: Mostly true.

That Cali dial feels like it was made to have a 6 o'clock date.

H8ters will say that all date windows are the devil.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

+1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

jerseydan31 said:


> Just got the 'Ghost' in a few days ago! Love it. The BOR bracelet complements it very well!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I bought the same package a few weeks ago. Awaiting the finish of a work project that has sucked near all the life out of me before i open it up, a reward for the end of the line. Bought my first Nth watch, but have no idea if i like it or not, yet.

Wear it in good health.

P.S. - after becoming a watchguage customer, get a notice recently that the Saurio is coming back (25 only), a bit pissed, because i generally like the saurio better, except i dislike the red highlights, because bad sports teams wear red, good teams wear blue- fact.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

RuggerAl said:


> bad sports teams wear red, good teams wear blue- fact.


Tell that to fans of the Detroit Lions. If you can find any.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

That was a comment to the moral fiber, metaphysical integrity, of like or similar teams. There's always exceptions to the rule though.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I couldn't bring myself to comment about sports teams' colors before the Eagles game ended. 

No, I'm not superstitious. I just believe in jinxes.

Anyhoo...Dallas sucks. Go Eagles.

And on that note, Merry Christmas, one and all. If Christmas isn't your thing, then Happy whatever is your thing.

See y'all in a couple days.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> I couldn't bring myself to comment about sports teams' colors before the Eagles game ended.
> 
> No, I'm not superstitious. I just believe in jinxes.
> 
> ...


There's always exceptions to the rule. Dallas sucks. (And I'll root for the Phillies, even though my grand father wouldn't.)


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

Delete


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

yankeexpress said:


>


Awesome watch!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I live in New England and can't help but be subjected to talk about SportsBall. I hear our seasonal SportsBall team won their Region title and will be going to the World Playoffs, or something...


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

Playing with straps when I shoulda been working yesterday









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> I live in New England and can't help but be subjected to talk about SportsBall. I hear our seasonal SportsBall team won their Region title and will be going to the World Playoffs, or something...


Well played.


----------



## boatswain (Sep 4, 2014)

Palmettoman said:


> Playing with straps when I shoulda been working yesterday
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like it best on the tropic


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

boatswain said:


> I like it best on the tropic


I love it on the red nylon.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

Received these recently and really enjoying them. NTH count is up to 3 now.


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

Palmettoman I love that invasion strap. I have been looking for one; only seller I've found is a UK seller. About $30. Is that where you sourced yours?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

Roy Hobbs said:


> Palmettoman I love that invasion strap. I have been looking for one; only seller I've found is a UK seller. About $30. Is that where you sourced yours?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Thank you. I'm not sure where this one came from...I thought it was from Cincy Strap Works, but I can't find them on their site now. I also have one from Haveston which I highly recommend. They are fantastic straps.
https://www.haveston.com/service-series/33-492-HAV044.html#/36-variation-20mm_polished


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

boatswain said:


> I like it best on the tropic





Ike2 said:


> I love it on the red nylon.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I like it on the kevlar style strap. The white contrast stitching compliments the watch nicely.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Palmettoman said:


> Playing with straps when I shoulda been working yesterday
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That one is obviously the best one as it matches the lume. What strap is it?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

I like it best on the sailcloth. Where was that one from?


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

DuckaDiesel said:


> That one is obviously the best one as it matches the lume. What strap is it?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thank you. Martu canvas


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

Tanjecterly said:


> I like it best on the sailcloth. Where was that one from?


Thank you. Maratac strap.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Merry Christmas to all of you!


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Merry Christmas and happy holidays, all. What's the first new watch purchase you folks are thinking about in '20? Right now I've got a mild obsession with the Aquis Clean Ocean, still can't quite decide whether to put it in the driveway or not. Before that it was the white dial Titoni Seascoper, which now I'm less sure about. I could also see an Atticus Meteora happening. That one (IMO) is the prettiest of the bunch, and a hell of a deal.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Atticus Pytheas FTW!


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm still wearing the he!! out of this one.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Merry Christmas!










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Davekaye90 said:


> Merry Christmas and happy holidays, all. What's the first new watch purchase you folks are thinking about in '20? Right now I've got a mild obsession with the Aquis Clean Ocean ...]
> 
> *********
> 
> ...


----------



## ddru (Mar 2, 2018)

docvail said:


> Merry Christmas
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Nice shoes doc, I have the same pair. I get a ton of compliments on them


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ddru said:


> Nice shoes doc, I have the same pair. I get a ton of compliments on them


Frye boots? They're nice, right? I get a lot of compliments on them, and they're pretty comfy.

I'd never heard of Frye before stumbling on them in the clearance section last year or the year before. My wife made me get them instead of another pair of leather boots I was considering. Apparently Frye is a hot designer brand.

Mildly amusing/ironic fact - the other pair I was considering were marked "Made in Italy". The Fryes did seem nicer than the other pair, but they're made in China. Well made, too, from what I can tell by wearing them.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Yankchef (Feb 8, 2018)

docvail said:


> Frye boots? They're nice, right? I get a lot of compliments on them, and they're pretty comfy.
> 
> I'd never heard of Frye before stumbling on them in the clearance section last year or the year before. My wife made me get them instead of another pair of leather boots I was considering. Apparently Frye is a hot designer brand.
> 
> ...


I've got 3 pairs of frye and they are great boots. Try to stay away from the China made ones the boots made in Mexico, US and Italy seem to be better made and higher quality

Sent from my H8266 using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Yankchef said:


> I've got 3 pairs of frye and they are great boots. Try to stay away from the China made ones the boots made in Mexico, US and Italy seem to be better made and higher quality


Frye boots were popular in the 1970's and widely imitated and copied.


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

Sorry...but I had to...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Palmettoman said:


> Sorry...but I had to...
> View attachment 14731743


There's the problem, right there. I was just a little kid in the '70's. My fashion awakening happened in the '80's. I was a Nikes and Timberlands kid.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

Bump!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

wtma said:


> Bump!


That photo, with the littre raindrop on the crystal, makes me think that this watch would look awesome with a fluild-filled case. Imagine, that pattern with 0 reflections...


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

X2-Elijah said:


> That photo, with the littre raindrop on the crystal, makes me think that this watch would look awesome with a fluild-filled case. Imagine, that pattern with 0 reflections...


You are on quite the fluid kick lately. I think it's a very cool concept. Which watch that's fluid filled do to like the most?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

ddru said:


> Nice shoes doc, I have the same pair. I get a ton of compliments on them


Those are not his feet.

Ric


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

JLS36 said:


> You are on quite the fluid kick lately. I think it's a very cool concept. Which watch that's fluid filled do to like the most?


Very few of them out there... the Sinns being the obvious ones... though I recall seeing a custom filled seiko diver on reddit that looked impressive. 

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Watches/comments/9jqqa1


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I thought I read somewhere that there were *reasons* why most or all liquid filled watches were quartz?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I thought I read somewhere that there were *reasons* why most or all liquid filled watches were quartz?


I'm sure I've read the same, but don't remember the explanation, likely because it didn't interest me enough.

I saw a fluid filled watch at the District Time show. It had an air bubble in it. I asked why, and got a science-guy explanation about how the air bubble was there intentionally, as blah blah helium, at depth, the bubble does something or other, and so there you go.

I just kept thinking, "yeah, awesome, but here above water, it makes the watch less legible, my eye is instantly drawn to that bubble, and I can't help feeling that I'd find it annoying as hell very quickly."

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> [
> 
> I just kept thinking, "yeah, awesome, but here above water, it makes the watch less legible, my eye is instantly drawn to that bubble, and I can't help feeling that I'd find it annoying as hell very quickly."


New complication: ...and it works as a level!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

mconlonx said:


> New complication: ...and it works as a level!


Or, works a treat to reveal uneven crystal installations.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Just stumbled into a third hand gem. A Scorpène in its most fully evolved form. Outstanding.









Went on a strap changing bender. Ended up back where I started with the nice, simple seat belt strap it arrived on. Might try to source a slim oyster at some point.







































Coincidentally, a new bracelet for my Geckota E-01 also arrived. So I'm swimming in nice, ~36mm blue watches. The Geckota may work as a Datejust stand-in, the NThwa as an Explorer. I'm told Scorp'lorer is the proper nickname. ;-)


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> I thought I read somewhere that there were *reasons* why most or all liquid filled watches were quartz?


The reason given was that the liquid would increase resistance and the gears of the mechanical movement would work less efficiently. In that same thread, I remember someone mentioning a liquid-filled watch that is mechanical and had a sealed separation between the front of the dial and the movement. Though I'm not sure how that works, with the pinion needing to rotate through the hole in the dial and all.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Sussa said:


> The reason given was that the liquid would increase resistance and the gears of the mechanical movement would work less efficiently. In that same thread, I remember someone mentioning a liquid-filled watch that is mechanical and had a sealed separation between the front of the dial and the movement. Though I'm not sure how that works, with the pinion needing to rotate through the hole in the dial and all.


Magnets.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Sussa said:


> I remember someone mentioning a liquid-filled watch that is mechanical and had a sealed separation between the front of the dial and the movement.


Isn't that the Ressence? Way cool, but hardly affordable.









A way cool WUS member brought one to the Boston GTG and was very generous with letting people handle this and a couple Devon watches.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sussa said:


> The reason given was that the liquid would increase resistance and the gears of the mechanical movement would work less efficiently. In that same thread, I remember someone mentioning a liquid-filled watch that is mechanical and had a sealed separation between the front of the dial and the movement. Though I'm not sure how that works, with the pinion needing to rotate through the hole in the dial and all.


Not that I care enough, but I don't get that either.

I thought the idea behind the fluid inside the watch was to keep helium gas out while sitting in a decomp chamber, so that the crystal doesn't pop out when the compression decreases, and the gas expands. If the entire case isn't filled, wouldn't that defeat the purpose?


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Not that I care enough, but I don't get that either.
> 
> I thought the idea behind the fluid inside the watch was to keep helium gas out while sitting in a decomp chamber, so that the crystal doesn't pop out when the compression decreases, and the gas expands. If the entire case isn't filled, wouldn't that defeat the purpose?


Caseback HRV.

You can use that on the oil filled XXS Phantom deep air pilot diver... Though, my cut per unit price would need to be maintained at 10 cents per 10,000. One time payment is acceptable...

Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Caseback HRV.
> 
> You can use that on the oil filled XXS Phantom deep air pilot diver... Though, my cut per unit price would need to be maintained at 10 cents per 10,000. One time payment is acceptable...
> 
> Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


For real?

I thought the whole point was to do away with the HRV?


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

If I ever wanted to spend that much on a watch the ressence would be it. I simply love the looks and unique features. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> For real?
> 
> I thought the whole point was to do away with the HRV?


Errrr, yes.










Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> I thought the idea behind the fluid inside the watch was to keep helium gas out while sitting in a decomp chamber, so that the crystal doesn't pop out when the compression decreases, and the gas expands. If the entire case isn't filled, wouldn't that defeat the purpose?


I thought the idea behind fluid inside the watch was legibility. It reduces the refraction that typically happens between the crystal and the dial. That's what Ressence says anyway: https://ressencewatches.com/innovation/oil-filled


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> I thought the idea behind the fluid inside the watch was to keep helium gas out while sitting in a decomp chamber,


nope.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Sussa said:


> I thought the idea behind fluid inside the watch was legibility. It reduces the refraction that typically happens between the crystal and the dial. That's what Ressence says anyway: https://ressencewatches.com/innovation/oil-filled


Yep. In Ressence's scenario, that's the benefit. And, in many ways, the main reason that allows the Ressence to look so otherworldly/magical. Same principle with a regular domed sapphire and flat dial, with the regular airgap inbetween, would be pretty lackluster.

In the Sinn Hydro scenario, where the whole case is filled incl. movement, the upshots are *legibility* (above and under water) and insane *WR* (since there's no compression to speak of, past collapsing that oft-discussed bubble; after a while the friction under pressure may become too much for the movement to move hands, so it will stop, but it won't be damaged or implode, ever).

As for helium... Mmmm tbh I'm not sure, but I never figured that to be a factor either way. I suppose seals and valves could straddle the line between stopping fluid but allowing helium atoms through. In which case, the fluid might get saturated or infused with helium, much in the same way as divers' blood.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

"It's gettin late, gotta see my mates, gonna get a belly full of beer.........."

As I won't get the opportunity for the next 36 hours or so, I'd like to wish all of you here, on this, officially the TMPTOW (The Most Popular Thread on WUS), a Very Happy and Prosperous New Year and I hope that 2020 brings you all the very best of times and much wearing of watches in good health.

Have a good one guys and see you all in 2020 for more fun and epic time-keeping.

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

And in the interlude before the first beer arriving, a picture of a wristwatch..........

View attachment 14743613


Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ragl said:


> "It's gettin late, gotta see my mates, gonna get a belly full of beer.........."
> 
> As I won't get the opportunity for the next 36 hours or so, I'd like to wish all of you here, on this, officially the TMPTOW (The Most Popular Thread on WUS), a Very Happy and Prosperous New Year and I hope that 2020 brings you all the very best of times and much wearing of watches in good health.
> 
> ...


Likewise, Alan!

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Going old school with the Lew & Huey Orthos on this New Year's Eve. Happy New Year everyone. See y'all in 2020!










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Going old school with the Lew & Huey Orthos on this New Year's Eve. Happy New Year everyone. See y'all in 2020!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's quite the color coordination there.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

docvail said:


> Going old school with the Lew & Huey Orthos on this New Year's Eve. Happy New Year everyone. See y'all in 2020!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Matches the whites of yer eyes when you've got a hangover. Which is always.

Happy New Year, Chris.

Ric, innit.


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

For Christmas, I bought the BOR bracelet to go with my Nacken Vintage. I was super excited to get it, as I love the Nacken but have been somewhat unimpressed with the bracelet it came on (the previous Sub bracelet -- the safety clasp would pop out when I'd flex my wrist, it was a little rattly, and the oyster-style is a little blah).
So I got the bracelet and my 4-year-old helped me open it up. 
"It already has spring bars," she said. (Yes, she knows what spring bars are.)
"And it looks like little poops!" she exclaimed.
I told her that it's called a Beads of Rice bracelet, because the links look like little pieces of rice. "No," she countered, "Rice if pointier. I'm going to call it Beads of Poops!"

So attached is the picture of my Nacken on a Beads of Poops bracelet. 








(I really like it, BTW. The design is great, adding a bit of bling and vintage flair to the watch. It's very comfortable and solid. The only niggle is that some of the edges of the clasp are still a little sharp, so I have to be a tad careful when I pick up my daughter or when I roughhouse with her to avoid scratches.)


----------



## boatswain (Sep 4, 2014)

Perdendosi said:


> For Christmas, I bought the BOR bracelet to go with my Naken Vintage. I was super excited to get it, as I love the Naken but have been somewhat unimpressed with the bracelet it came on (the previous Sub bracelet -- the safety clasp would pop out when I'd flex my wrist, it was a little rattly, and the oyster-style is a little blah).
> So I got the bracelet and my 4-year-old helped me open it up.
> "It already has spring bars," she said. (Yes, she knows what spring bars are.)
> "And it looks like little poops!" she exclaimed.
> ...


Beads of poop.

Classic 

When I had a watch in with BOR my wife said "why beads of rice? They are called grains of rice".


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Beads of poop... 

That is the best thing I will ever read, for the rest of this decade. I’m going to bed now, so it doesn’t get spoiled. 


Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Perdendosi said:


> "And it looks like little poops!" she exclaimed.
> I told her that it's called a Beads of Rice bracelet, because the links look like little pieces of rice. "No," she countered, "Rice if pointier. I'm going to call it Beads of Poops!"


What's your daughter's hourly rate for new product naming consultation?

Aaron and Rusty are absolutely worthless in the face of such raw talent.

Also, anyone who says you can't polish a turd must now stop saying it, since the poops on our BOP bracelet are, in fact, polished.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Happy New Year, all!









Back on the OG-triple-OG bracelet for the first time in a few months because I just cleaned and conditioned the leather strap that I normally have it on.

On that note, quick reflection on value: Today I decided that it was time to give my leather belts and watch straps some love.

The belt that I wear most often is a cheap (inexpensive) brown leather belt that I picked up at Walmart while I was traveling almost ten years ago when I realized that I'd forgotten to pack a belt. I ended up really liking that belt, and it's become my daily casual (blue jeans) belt.

I never thought or cared much about maintaining it because of how inexpensive it was and how I'd acquired it. But after all this time of being reliable, I've come to appreciate it. I really like having things that just last without being coddled, and do their job well.


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

docvail said:


> Going old school with the Lew & Huey Orthos on this New Year's Eve. Happy New Year everyone. See y'all in 2020!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was gonna make a smart#@$ comment about taking a few Sharpies to your old 80's vintage Stan Smiths, so I started searching for pics to help make my point. I am not believing what I found...

Gucci Stan Smiths for $670.00








They have apparently spawned a DIY cottage industry. You can have the coral snakes painted on for $250

The "rebel teens" aren't left out either.








I'm so stupid...:-s


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Palmettoman said:


> I was gonna make a smart#@$ comment about taking a few Sharpies to your old 80's vintage Stan Smiths, so I started searching for pics to help make my point. I am not believing what I found...
> 
> Gucci Stan Smiths for $670.00
> View attachment 14744857
> ...


I got these on sale for $64 from Aldo. They were originally $80.

That's over 90% savings!










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> Going old school with the Lew & Huey Orthos on this New Year's Eve. Happy New Year everyone. See y'all in 2020!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doc ending the year and decade all color coordinated. Nice job!


----------



## Palmettoman (Apr 6, 2013)

docvail said:


> I got these on sale for $64 from Aldo. They were originally $80.
> 
> That's over 90% savings!
> 
> ...


LOL and no tax too...winner!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

I thought "King of Prussia" was the local bar. Doc, did you buy your shoes at a bar?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> I thought "King of Prussia" was the local bar. Doc, did you buy your shoes at a bar?


It's the next town north, home to an enormous shopping mall.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Doc, I see that you added the Kiger Milsub to the NTH page. 

I know there's been some discussion on those here, and I may have missed a few details about availability. But since we've been talking about sneakers for the last two pages, maybe there's a little extra bandwidth to revisit the Kiger business at the risk of someone having to repeat themselves.

I remember seeing that they were in extremely limited quantity and almost all spoken for. But...

1) Does anyone know if any are still available?

B. Is there any way to contact that guy other than FB (I, like YE, am a staunch boycotter of FB)?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Coriolanus said:


> Doc, I see that you added the Kiger Milsub to the NTH page.
> 
> I know there's been some discussion on those here, and I may have missed a few details about availability. But since we've been talking about sneakers for the last two pages, maybe there's a little extra bandwidth to revisit the Kiger business at the risk of someone having to repeat themselves.
> 
> ...


1) I believe there are likely still some available.

B. You can PM Kiger through the forum, or, if you go to the contact page on the NTH website, there's a link there to contact him.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> I thought "King of Prussia" was the local bar. Doc, did you buy your shoes at a bar?





docvail said:


> It's the next town north, home to an enormous shopping mall.


In point of fact, there is a bar there, the "Fox & Hound", which has hosted our local GTG's the past 4-5 years.

King of Prussia, or "KoP" as it's abbreviated locally, borders on Valley Forge national park, where Prussian general Baron Von Stuben taught D&C ("drill and ceremony") to George Washington's revolutionary soldiers.

I can't remember if I learned of Stuben in school, or in the Army, but I always assumed KoP was named in honor of Stuben's service to our country, but apparently, it's not so.

It seems that there was a King of Prussia Inn, built first as a cottage by Welsh Quakers in 1719, then converted to an Inn in 1769, catering to travelers on their way from Philadelphia to Ohio. The Inn was a day's horse ride from the city, so travelers would stop there on their first night of the journey.

There seems to be some dispute as to when the Inn was named "King of Prussia". A British spy map listed it as "Berry's" in 1777, but that's possibly just the name of the then-current proprietors. A 1786 petition listed it as the KoP Inn, possibly a reference to Ben Franklin's satirical, pro-American essay "An Edict by the King of Prussia", but there's also suggestion it was renamed in order to entice German soldiers fighting in the American Revolution to remain in the area.









Anyhoo, now it's an overgrown and obscene monument to consumerism and lavish excess, with a nice view of the park.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

docvail said:


> 1) I believe there are likely still some available.
> 
> B. You can PM Kiger through the forum, or, if you go to the contact page on the NTH website, there's a link there to contact him.


Muchas gracias.



docvail said:


> In point of fact, there is a bar there, the "Fox & Hound", which has hosted our local GTG's the past 4-5 years.
> 
> King of Prussia, or "KoP" as it's abbreviated locally, borders on Valley Forge national park, where Prussian general Baron Von Stuben taught D&C ("drill and ceremony") to George Washington's revolutionary soldiers.
> 
> I can't remember if I learned of Stuben in school, or in the Army, but I always assumed KoP was named in honor of Stuben's service to our country, but apparently, it's not so.


Fox & Hound is a franchise, but I think I've been to that one (and a few others). Highly recommend.

You almost certainly learned about Von Steuben in the Army. The story of the D & C "Blue Book" is beaten into the head of every new NCO during formal leadership development courses. Of course, you're from that area, so you might have also gotten it in school.

Valley Forge is absolutely gorgeous. I encourage anyone who's in the area with some free time to check it out. In particular, the church there (can't remember the name) is a historic monument with classic Gothic architecture and has some absolutely amazing stained glass windows. I spent a day touring VF once a few years back and it was well worth it.

All that said, just up the road an hour or two, Gettysburg is far and away the most amazing historic battlefield/military historic site that I've ever visited. The park basically surrounds the town, and you can spend a whole day just doing the driving tour and checking out all the monuments of key events during the battle.

Bonus: I haven't been there in years but the last time I was, there was a Rolex-trained watchmaker (former instructor, IIRC) with a little shop downtown.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Coriolanus said:


> Doc, I see that you added the Kiger Milsub to the NTH page. ... Is there any way to contact that guy other than FB (I, like YE, am a staunch boycotter of FB)?


[email protected]

By the way, did you know that he trademarked "milsub"?

https://trademark.trademarkia.com/milsub-86276436.html


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> [email protected]
> 
> By the way, did you know that he trademarked "milsub"?
> 
> https://trademark.trademarkia.com/milsub-86276436.html


I did, because he told me.

Pretty genius. Wish I'd thought of it.

The thought of some folks inside of Rolex losing their $hlt always brings a smile to my face.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

docvail said:


> I got these on sale for $64 from Aldo. They were originally $80.
> 
> That's over 90% savings!
> 
> ...


Im not mathmetician, and havent stayed at a Holiday Inn lately, but 64 out of 80 isnt 90%.......


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Im not mathmetician, and havent stayed at a Holiday Inn lately, but 64 out of 80 isnt 90%.......


No, the shoes were marked down 20%, but compared to a $670 pair of Gucci's, $64 is indeed over a 90% savings.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I did, because he told me.
> 
> Pretty genius. Wish I'd thought of it.
> 
> The thought of some folks inside of Rolex losing their $hlt always brings a smile to my face.


Quick: trademark MILFsub...


----------



## delmar39 (Mar 1, 2018)

Strap adjusted good to go! First day with my NTH Skipjack what a piece. Obsolutely love it. More than holds its own next to my other two divers.









Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

According to the NTH Scorpène Blue, it's almost quitting time at the Docvail Industries Secret Underground Product Lab and Hidden Office Bunker...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Soon...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

delmar39 said:


> Strap adjusted good to go! First day with my NTH Skipjack what a piece. Obsolutely love it. More than holds its own next to my other two divers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I gotta admit, I like how the Skipjack turned out, but I wouldn't kick an SMP 2254.50 out of bed for eating crackers...


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Starting the year in Hawaii


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> View attachment 14749761
> 
> 
> Starting the year in Hawaii


Posts pics from inside an airplane - pics appear upside down.

Posts pics from his hotel balcony - pics appear sideways.

I think we may need to build a Dave Jones wing on the Bill Jones School of Excellence in Photography.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Posts pics from inside an airplane - pics appear upside down.
> 
> Posts pics from his hotel balcony - pics appear sideways.
> 
> I think we may need to build a Dave Jones wing on the Bill Jones School of Excellence in Photography.


Seriously, they are all right side up when I post them. I've even gone to the trouble to delete a post and rotate them and put them back in. Enormously frustrating. And for what it's worth, when I view them on the device with which I posted them, they are right side up. I blame the forum


----------



## Perdendosi (May 10, 2012)

docvail said:


> What's your daughter's hourly rate for new product naming consultation?
> 
> Aaron and Rusty are absolutely worthless in the face of such raw talent.
> 
> Also, anyone who says you can't polish a turd must now stop saying it, since the poops on our BOP bracelet are, in fact, polished.


I think you could buy her time in (pretty small) servings of Chick-Fil-A nuggets, chocolates, and ice cream cones, and episodes of Paw Patrol.
I don't like posting pics of my kid online for strangers to see, but this one may do. She wanted to be a skeleton for Halloween, and when we bought her costume, she didn't like that the mask had a squiggly smiley face. ("That's not the kind of smile skeletons have...") So we had to make her a paper-plate mask with "straight teeth" that wasn't too scary.

I think she's a pretty innovative product designer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Seriously, they are all right side up when I post them. I've even gone to the trouble to delete a post and rotate them and put them back in. Enormously frustrating. And for what it's worth, when I view them on the device with which I posted them, they are right side up. I blame the forum


I blame Rusty.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> I blame Rusty.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Dave is always posting pics with a bad attitude.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

CMA22inc said:


> Dave is always posting pics with a bad attitude.


And often at altitude.

Makes you wonder how much of the cost of airfare is "pilot f**king off" expense.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> And often at altitude.
> 
> Makes you wonder how much of the cost of airfare is "pilot f**king off" expense.


Nah, Dave could pour you a drink in row 33 from the cockpit if he wanted to. Have you seen the commercial where Chuck Norris does a split between two jets?

Dave was the Pilot.

Of both jets.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

delmar39 said:


> Strap adjusted good to go! First day with my NTH Skipjack what a piece. Obsolutely love it. More than holds its own next to my other two divers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a fun post.

A. Sounded like fighting words to start. When I hear "what a piece" there is always an implied two word chaser. Like the young skeleton's beads of poop but less polite. 
B. The picture in picture aesthetic.
C. Post count matches user name.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)




----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

docvail said:


> I gotta admit, I like how the Skipjack turned out, but I wouldn't kick an SMP 2254.50 out of bed for eating crackers...


I'm glad you brought this up. I have had the 2254.50 and currently have a 2264.50 and 2231.50. I arrived at the 2231 because the 54 and 64 have more polished surfaces than I want. I have a small collection of divers that all are great on their own. But I am a minimalist at heart and want one watch for 90% of need. I wear a watch 24/7. Long story short while the Omega is so damn cool, modern classic etc. I keep arriving at the Odin. Help me let go of the SMP.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

And you may have noticed the....er.....um....helium valve....

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Roy Hobbs said:


> And you may have noticed the....er.....um....helium valve....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Mine doesn't have one. That second crown is to help release methane gas from the watches colon.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Roy Hobbs said:


> I'm glad you brought this up. I have had the 2254.50 and currently have a 2264.50 and 2231.50. I arrived at the 2231 because the 54 and 64 have more polished surfaces than I want. I have a small collection of divers that all are great on their own. But I am a minimalist at heart and want one watch for 90% of need. I wear a watch 24/7. Long story short while the Omega is so damn cool, modern classic etc. I keep arriving at the Odin. Help me let go of the SMP.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Trade you either of my Odins for a black SMP 2254 50.

Even swap.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Senorzebra (Jun 8, 2019)

Proud owner of my first NTH.
Heard about the brand on reddit, and stumbled onto this thread. I became fascinated by the discussion, and waited until I had the funds to get my own.

The watch definitely lives up to my expectations. I was worried that I would miss having applied markers, but the gilt dial is beautiful, and adds depth in its own way. The bracelet is comfortable and quality. The movement is my most accurate watch so far. The rotor is noisy, but I love how the quiet the movement ticks compared to my other watches. I won't be buying another watch for a very long time. (Especially after having had to convince the wife to buy this one!)


----------



## Senorzebra (Jun 8, 2019)

View attachment 14750503


Proud owner of my first NTH.
Heard about the brand on reddit, and stumbled onto this thread. I became fascinated by the discussion, and waited until I had the funds to get my own.

The watch definitely lives up to my expectations. I was worried that I would miss having applied markers, but the gilt dial is beautiful, and adds depth in its own way. The bracelet is comfortable and quality. The movement is my most accurate watch so far. The rotor is noisy, but I love how the quiet the movement ticks compared to my other watches. I won't be buying another watch for a very long time. (Especially after having had to convince the wife to buy this one!)


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Senorzebra said:


> [/ATTACH=CONFIG]14750503[/ATTACH]
> 
> Proud owner of my first NTH.
> Heard about the brand on reddit, and stumbled onto this thread. I became fascinated by the discussion, and waited until I had the funds to get my own.
> ...


Congrats!! Great variant you grabbed there. And welcome to this fun house of a thread.

The Subs have really seemed to position themselves among the most popular mid-level affordables going over the past couple of years (at least on WUS), and it's hard not to love Doc, Rusty, and the rest of the team.

Enjoy the watch and thread!

P.S. Be careful: the Subs are addictive. I can't quite get that damn Kiger out of my mind as of late, and the gilt relief variants have long been on the back of my mind.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> And often at altitude.
> 
> Makes you wonder how much of the cost of airfare is "pilot f**king off" expense.


True story. Posted the last one from an iPad, with Safari, using the Google photo version. Looked great and thought no more about it until I saw your post and looked at it on my phone. Sideways. D#$%. Got home, opened it on a Windows computer, edit post, deleted the old one, upload one.... Sideways!?! Deleted it, opened a version from the desktop, looked good, saved it.... Freaking sideways?!?! Flipped it so that it looked sideways on the computer, saved the change. Straight up and down! WTF. I still blame the forum. It's the same double post software, different version...

Bonus photo, blurry watch, clear view of Los Angeles from 39000.


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

docvail said:


> Trade you either of my Odins for a black SMP 2254 50.
> 
> Even swap.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Very generous, thanks. But it was the age old rhetorical question of value. Struggling to justify the Omega, as good as it is, when the Odin is 1/3 price. It further chaps my onions knowing I'm paying for the name and supporting Swatch Group shenanigans.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Roy Hobbs said:


> Very generous, thanks. But it was the age old rhetorical question of value. Struggling to justify the Omega, as good as it is, when the Odin is 1/3 price. It further chaps my onions knowing I'm paying for the name and supporting Swatch Group shenanigans.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Great point. You should definitely get rid of the Omega.

To me.

Hard to believe you don't already have it packed up to ship.


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

"You pick the one right tool"









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Omega???

Don't you think George Clooney, Daniel Craig, Nicole Kidman, etc etc, have enough money already? Do you really want them to have some of yours?

IMO, once a brand starts paying wealthy celebrities to shill for them (excuse me, be "brand ambassadors"), they lose any design/horological cred they might have ever had, and go straight into Daniel Wellington territory. None of them are ever getting a dime from me.


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

Shots fired

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## delmar39 (Mar 1, 2018)

3WR said:


> What a fun post.
> 
> A. Sounded like fighting words to start. When I hear "what a piece" there is always an implied two word chaser. Like the young skeleton's beads of poop but less polite.
> B. The picture in picture aesthetic.
> ...


I think you've got too much time on your hands (if you'll pardon the pun).

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

I can't imagine selling my 2254 for anything. Love is a strong word for inanimate wrist jewelry that tells time, but I love mine. And a strong affection is building with my new Aqua Terra too. No Swatch shenanigans to be found and I have no idea who the Omega ambassadors are, but to each their own.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rice and Gravy said:


> I can't imagine selling my 2254 for anything. Love is a strong word for inanimate wrist jewelry that tells time, but I love mine. And a strong affection is building with my new Aqua Terra too. No Swatch shenanigans to be found and I have no idea who the Omega ambassadors are, but to each their own.


Both beautiful watches.

I don't know that I ever embraced the idea that buying a watch from a brand with celebrity ambassadors makes the watch "overpriced", because some large portion of the watch's price is going to a celebrity.

We're talking about Swatch. The company has $8 Billion in annual gross revenue, and $600 Million in net revenue. How much could they be paying celebs to appear in a few ads? $6 Million? That's 1% of net revenue. I doubt it's that much, but if it is, it's likely a small portion of their overall ad budget. Let's say the ad budget is $80 Million dollars. That's 1% of their annual revenue, meaning 1% of the price of the watches they sell. Maybe it's $800 Million. Still, just 10%.

It's an investment in marketing and promotion. If they didn't spend that money on celebs, they'd spend it in some other way. Lots of brands, including small brands like mine, spend some money on marketing and promotion. Does that mean we're all over-charging?

Is it okay to spend some money to maintain a website? What about maintaining an email newsletter service? What about sponsoring the forum, or a FB group? What about forking over 5% of my sales to Kickstarter, or 3% to PayPal, or 15% to Amazon? Where do we draw the line between what's okay for a company to pay for, and what isn't?

Sponsoring the forum is okay, but putting Daniel Craig in an ad isn't? I don't get why.

If someone wants to avoid Swatch brands because Swatch is run by a bunch of a$$holes, that actually does make some sense to me. But there again, Google, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and even this forum - all companies being run by people with the clear intention of milking users for maximum value. And yet, here we are.

By all accounts, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Steve Jobs, and many other titans of industry and technology were complete and utter bastards. I'd still take a Ford Mustang, use electricity every day, pay for my wife and kids' iPhones, etc, etc, etc. I make peace with using the goods and services of companies I don't particularly admire, because the goods and services add value to my life.

I don't particularly admire Swatch Group, the company, but I do love the Omega SMP 2254, and the Skyfall AT, and the SM300, and the PO 2500, etc, etc, etc. If someone wanted to let me have one in trade for one of my watches, or if one otherwise fell into my lap, I certainly wouldn't let my principles get in the way of my enjoyment of it.


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

All good points. I know I compromise everyday to some degree just navigate our world. I imagine we all do. I by no means intended to start a principles of capitalism discussion. The Swatch Group shenanigans comment was secondary to my point of the Odin being a lot, for me, of the 2254 for a fraction of the price. The amount each of us is willing to pay for a name or marketing budget is purely an individual equation.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Roy Hobbs said:


> All good points. I know I compromise everyday to some degree just navigate our world. I imagine we all do. I by no means intended to start a principles of capitalism discussion. The Swatch Group shenanigans comment was secondary to my point of the Odin being a lot, for me, of the 2254 for a fraction of the price. The amount each of us is willing to pay for a name or marketing budget is purely an individual equation.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Cheers, mate.

I have both Odins, the blue and the black. When we were designing them, I wasn't sure they'd scratch my SM300/SMP itch, given that the Orthos I and the Commander 300 didn't completely scratch my SM300/PO itch.

But, between the Commander and the Odins, and briefly owning the Helson Sharkmaster 300, I honestly don't think about any of the Omegas too much any more. It helps that the PO and SMP only come with a date, and the ones I like have that godawful protuberance at 10 o'clock.

For now, I think the itch has been scratched well enough. Although, I did see a used PO in my local Tourneau last weekend (same mall where I got my new kicks), and I've been thinking about going back to take a closer look at it.

Either way, I still think they're all nice watches, and I agree that we're delivering something that is likely very close, in terms of look and feel, for a fraction of the price. I don't see why both can't be true, or why we can't admire both the SMP and the Odin.

With the Scorpene, I don't think about the Sinn 857 (which is too big, and doesn't have a no-date version anyway). The DevilRay more than scratches my Doxa Sub and Certina DS-3 itch. The Barracudas and Nackens more than scratch the Tudor Snowflake/Black Bay itch. My Cerberus scratches my Milgauss itch.

I didn't think I had a Gucci Stan Smith itch, but if I did, my $64 Aldos more than scratch it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone who might have missed it - Watch Opinon: Swatch?s Opening Gambit: It?s Your Move, Japan. - Scottish Watches


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

I love all this omega talk!

Did someone say brand ambassador???










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

NTH...

now with Healing Aloe!


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> Is it okay to spend some money to maintain a website? What about maintaining an email newsletter service? What about sponsoring the forum, or a FB group? What about forking over 5% of my sales to Kickstarter, or 3% to PayPal, or 15% to Amazon? Where do we draw the line between what's okay for a company to pay for, and what isn't?


IMO, all of those are legit business expenses, inherent to the product and letting potential customers know about it. Paying George Clooney (and many others) a few million a year to pretend he likes your product? Nope, not OK by me. In my mind, it cheapens the product. If the product is so good, why does a celebrity need to be paid to say so?

In most areas of life, there's nothing we can do about it. Back in the day Pepsi paid Brittany Spears $50M, and god knows what Coke paid Cosby.

But there are lots of excellent watch makers that don't pay celebrities. NTH for example. So we have a choice.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Avo said:


> IMO, all of those are legit business expenses, inherent to the product and letting potential customers know about it. Paying George Clooney (and many others) a few million a year to pretend he likes your product? Nope, not OK by me. In my mind, it cheapens the product. If the product is so good, why does a celebrity need to be paid to say so?
> 
> In most areas of life, there's nothing we can do about it. Back in the day Pepsi paid Brittany Spears $50M, and god knows what Coke paid Cosby.
> 
> But there are lots of excellent watch makers that don't pay celebrities. NTH for example. So we have a choice.


Is there really such a big difference between paying Clooney to pretend he likes a watch, vs. paying for an ad campaign towards e.g. 20 websites to post messages to pretend they recommend the watch?

Or, how about paying hodinkee or worn&wound or aBlogToWatch or some youtube reviewers to pretend they like the watch?

If it's a deep personal dislike of Clooney himself, okay, that's fair. But as far as the general principle of advertising goes, there's not much difference between him and other advertising avenues, imo, at a principle level.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

X2-Elijah said:


> Is there really such a big difference between paying Clooney to pretend he likes a watch, vs. paying for an ad campaign towards e.g. 20 websites to post messages to pretend they recommend the watch?


Can you give a specific example of this sort of ad campaign?



X2-Elijah said:


> Or, how about paying hodinkee or worn&wound or aBlogToWatch or some youtube reviewers to pretend they like the watch?


Which youtube reviewers are paid to pretend? The Big 3 websites you name all flag paid content.



X2-Elijah said:


> If it's a deep personal dislike of Clooney himself, okay, that's fair. But as far as the general principle of advertising goes, there's not much difference between him and other advertising avenues, imo, at a principle level.


I have nothing against Clooney specifically. But I do think there is a very big difference between paying to bring your product to the attention of potential customers, and touting its features and quality, vs getting someone with no particular expertise, but who is famous for doing something entirely unrelated (acting, singing, football, golf, whatever) to say they like it. Why should I care if George Clooney likes Omega or Tiger Woods likes Rolex?

In Tiger's case, he used to like Tag, but then they stopped paying him, and suddenly he discovered his deep love for Rolex. I'm sure it's totally genuine. He probably sold his Tiger Woods Special Edition Tag on ebay.

But hey, if you think these guys don't have enough money yet, and should get some of yours, go for it!

For my final word on the subject, here's a pretty reasonable article on the whole phenomenon of celebrity endorsement in the high-end watch world:

https://quillandpad.com/2015/05/27/celebrity-ambassadors-good-marketing-or-terrible-waste/


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Avo said:


> Can you give a specific example of this sort of ad campaign?
> 
> Which youtube reviewers are paid to pretend? The Big 3 websites you name all flag paid content.
> 
> ...


There is no difference advertising is advertising. Small watch brands send their watches to friendly reviewers and have big number followers in social media post pics of them. It's the same as Clooney just on a smaller level. Clooney pretending to like a watch is no different than the worn and wound and any other blog or YouTube channel constantly churning out nothing but positive reviews.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Cheers, mate.
> 
> I have both Odins, the blue and the black. When we were designing them, I wasn't sure they'd scratch my SM300/SMP itch, given that the Orthos I and the Commander 300 didn't completely scratch my SM300/PO itch.
> 
> ...


You might wanna see a Doc about all that itching.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

The only thing that irritates me about celebrity-driven marketing campaigns is that they're mostly dumb and/or lazy (the Chris Hemsworth Tag Heuer ads always make me laugh because they're so doofy). I have no problem with the core concept.

Let's face it: getting the James Bond product placement contract was one of the smartest things Omega ever did, and you'll now have to pry that association away from Omega's cold, dead hands.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> IMO, all of those are legit business expenses, inherent to the product and letting potential customers know about it. Paying George Clooney (and many others) a few million a year to pretend he likes your product? Nope, not OK by me. In my mind, it cheapens the product. If the product is so good, why does a celebrity need to be paid to say so?
> 
> In most areas of life, there's nothing we can do about it. Back in the day Pepsi paid Brittany Spears $50M, and god knows what Coke paid Cosby.
> 
> But there are lots of excellent watch makers that don't pay celebrities. NTH for example. So we have a choice.


On the one hand, I don't think that celebrity endorsements, or appearances in watch ads, are overly effective in driving demand, and that much of that money is wasted.

How much increase in demand did Tudor see because they got David Beckham or Lady Gaga into their ads? I think the product and people's perceptions of the brand matter more.

To the extent that the money seems wasted, I suppose it's logical to feel that the watch is therefore over-priced, if the brand is spending money wastefully.

Likewise, even if the money wasn't wasted, because there was some increase in demand, say, by having "James Bond" promote Omega, it might seem that the watch is priced higher because of it. I know that there was a time when I saw things that way, just as you do.

But, honestly, from my position running a business in the same industry, those sorts of business expenses don't factor into the price of the product. When I put a price on the product, I take into account a handful of things - my production costs, what my competitors charge for similar watches, and how my watch and brand are differentiated from my competitors.

When I spend money on anything that isn't a production cost, that's an operational expense of my business. For a while (like, a few years), I was wasting money on digital ads, which weren't working. That didn't increase the price of my product, it just decreased the net profit of the business.

So, when I see a brand paying for celebrity endorsements, I no longer think about it as "_*my*_ money going to pay Daniel Craig". I think of it as "*Omega's* money going to Daniel Craig."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> The only thing that irritates me about celebrity-driven marketing campaigns is that they're mostly dumb and/or lazy (the Chris Hemsworth Tag Heuer ads always make me laugh because they're so doofy). I have no problem with the core concept.
> 
> Let's face it: getting the James Bond product placement contract was one of the smartest things Omega ever did, and you'll now have to pry that association away from Omega's cold, dead hands.


Indeed, the effort can backfire. I can't help but cringe looking at the Tag ads with Leo DiCaprio holding the watch like a knuckle-duster. Those are pretty stupid ads.

But, what I somewhat like about the Clooney ads for Omega is that he's a bit tongue-in-cheek with them.

I think the old-school, basic idea behind having a celebrity endorse a product is to create an air of prestige around the product. However, I think more forward-thinking advertisers understand that it's sometimes better to use a celebrity with whom people can identify, in order to make the product seem more accessible, to the extent the celebrity is relatable.

Clooney, for all the times he seems oh-so-suave and debonair, is also really good at being goofy, and I think that gives those ads a bit of humor, making them more effective.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> On the one hand, I don't think that celebrity endorsements, or appearances in watch ads, are overly effective in driving demand, and that much of that money is wasted.
> 
> How much increase in demand did Tudor see because they got David Beckham or Lady Gaga into their ads? I think the product and people's perceptions of the brand matter more.


I think that you're giving people too much credit, to be that discerning about advertising, I'd imagine that it does have some positive affect, if it didn't they wouldn't do it.

.......the *endorsement* by celebrities is only narrowly removed from the effect that the use by NASA of the Omega speedmaster has had. If the Speedmaster wasn't _*the*_ moon watch would it buy such an icon and a grail for WIS, probably not.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

If Anton Chigurh wore Nth I'd instantly want more of them :-d


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Indeed, the effort can backfire. I can't help but cringe looking at the Tag ads with Leo DiCaprio holding the watch like a knuckle-duster. Those are pretty stupid ads.


......reminds me of a vaguely watch related story. Was going out with a girl at Uni and one evening we bumped into a very aggressive guy, unpleasant experience. Later she told me that was her ex and then related the story about how he'd been done for GBH (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grievous_bodily_harm) by using his watch as a knuckle duster. Apparently the conclusive evidence was the imprint of the bezel in the other guys face. That relationship did not last, but I bumped into years later and discovered she'd married this nutter.

......bet he wears a Tag now.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Indeed, the effort can backfire. I can't help but cringe looking at the Tag ads with Leo DiCaprio holding the watch like a knuckle-duster. Those are pretty stupid ads.
> 
> But, what I somewhat like about the Clooney ads for Omega is that he's a bit tongue-in-cheek with them.
> 
> ...


It's working on you then........


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hornet99 said:


> I think that you're giving people too much credit, to be that discerning about advertising, I'd imagine that it does have some positive affect, if it didn't they wouldn't do it.
> 
> .......the *endorsement* by celebrities is only narrowly removed from the effect that the use by NASA of the Omega speedmaster has had. If the Speedmaster wasn't _*the*_ moon watch would it buy such an icon and a grail for WIS, probably not.


It's not so much that I think people are discerning about advertising, it's that I think many people have become largely immune to advertising, generally, and to paid-endorsement advertising in particular, especially for certain products.

I try to pay attention to watch advertising, and to be mindful enough to think about how the ads make me feel, or how they would likely make someone else feel.

Seeing Daniel Craig, in a tuxedo, wearing an Omega dive watch, while partially submerged? Meh, no effect on me whatsoever. Seeing Leo DiCaprio wearing a Tag across his fist? It makes me cringe.

Seeing David Beckham in a Tudor ad? I honestly can't even remember the ad, so in that way, it was even less effective than the Daniel Craig ad, which I at least remember. The ad with Clooney seated at a watchmaker's bench? If I didn't already know about quality control, I think I would have come away thinking that there was something special in Omega's.

I saw an ad for the Tudor Ranger, with the watch overlaid on an image showing the point of view of someone at the handles of a dog-sled, along with some text about the Iditarod, or some such. I actually thought that ad was pretty effective, inasmuch as it did a good job making me feel like the Ranger was a rugged watch, made for adventure.

More importantly, it got me thinking about the lack of adventure in my own life, which I think is *exactly* the psychological effect desired by whomever created that ad.

They want people to feel like their lives are boring (for most of us, they are). I'm not going to sign up for the Iditarod. I hate the cold. An easier way to feel a sense of adventure-readiness is to walk into Tourneau and buy a Ranger. Even if I don't race, I can walk out feeling like I'm better equipped for adventure, should one unfold.

I think the Daniel Craig ads are meant to both lend prestige / glamour to the Omegas, but also convey that sense of absent adventure in our lives, because he's "James Bond", but I'm not sure how effective the ads are at doing either, to the extent that the ads are likely "preaching to the converted". Anyone into watches likely already knows of Omega, and the tie-in with James Bond. For everyone else, the ads are just visual noise, easily ignored.

The most effective ads - in my observation - are those which conjure up a problem, and offer a solution. I recently bought some magnifier glasses after seeing an ad for them on TV. I ordered them online as soon as I saw the ad, because the ad reminded me of a real problem I have (seeing small objects, like bracelet screws, in my not-very-well-lit office).

Most watch ads don't do that. The Ranger ad actually did - it reminded me I'm a chubby, pale, middle-aged man living in a virtually sterile suburb, but it's not too late for me to squeeze in a few more adventures before I die. I may not have added "buy a Tudor" to my bucket list, but I suspect that ad got more people thinking about buying a Tudor than the one with David Beckham.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> It's not so much that I think people are discerning about advertising, it's that I think many people have become largely immune to advertising, generally, and to paid-endorsement advertising in particular, especially for certain products.
> 
> I try to pay attention to watch advertising, and to be mindful enough to think about how the ads make me feel, or how they would likely make someone else feel.
> 
> ...


That's you Doc, you are probably fairly immune to advertising (like me a bitter and twisted cynic.....), but look at the rise of YouTube influencers, no different to advertising and seems to be effective. Different things work for different people, the adventure aspect works for you rather than the celebrity, but I'm sure people are stupid enough to buy a Tudor just cause Beckham wears one.......

......on Beckham I'm sure I'd read he wears a beaten up Tudor black bay most of the time. So maybe a *genuine* ambassador?


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

The effects of advertising have been extensively studied by psychologists. The bottom line is that essentially everyone is influenced by it, while simultaneously firmly believing that they are not.

My personal opinion is that I do differentiate celebrity endorsements from product-presentation advertising (including compensated "reviews"). For me, the latter is often very useful in showing details of the product that I want to know before buying (or even seriously considering). Daniel Craig underwater? Not so much.

And doc, when you say that it's Omega's money, not yours, that goes to the celebrities: where do you think Omega got their money from? I'd rather have them raise the salaries of their employees (you know, the people who actually make the watches) instead of giving it away to Nicole Kidman.

Not picking on Omega (and their celebrities) in particular, I have the same distaste for all celebrity endorsements, unless there is some real reason for the celebrity to have some expertise. I still remember a magazine ad from the 1980s featuring famed oil-well-fire-fighter Red Adair and his Rolex. Now there's a guy who needed a tough watch. Tiger Woods, Roger Federer? No.

So, if I ever buy a high-end watch, it will come from a company like RGM or Hentschel (or at the very least, a division like GO or ALS) that doesn't do celebrity endorsements.

Meanwhile, I'm very happy sticking to affordables made by small companies like NTH, which really do feel like they are labors of love, by enthusiasts for enthusiasts.

YMMV.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Few random thoughts on ads. 

Where are you all seeing them? I only see the celebs if I happen to go to a brand’s site. The only ads I can recall seeing are the very simple Rolex ones that are just a giant picture of one watch. On billboards. At airport baggage claim. 

I think Doc touched on the distinction between us lunatics and normals. I’d guess normals would be more influenced by celeb ambassadors. Since they don’t have other ways to form opinions of a watch brand. And may not really care about the finer details. 

I wonder if any of the ambassadors are *really* into watches. I mean, who wouldn’t like to have luxury watches? Maybe even a big collection. But I mean really into them like us. Would it be selling out for a truly afflicted watch nerd to endorse a brand? Since we tell ourselves we’re all so much more enlightened and above brand /marketing hype. 

Finally, I wonder if part of the ambassadorship gig is agreeing not to wear competing brands. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

3WR said:


> I only see the celebs if I happen to go to a brand's site.


There was a full-page Daniel Craig underwater ad in the Sunday Los Angeles Times (print circulation: 2 million) when that campaign was in full swing.



3WR said:


> I wonder if part of the ambassadorship gig is agreeing not to wear competing brands.


Absolutely:



> Charlize Theron will head to court later this month in a $20 million lawsuit - all because she accessorized with some renegade bling.
> 
> Swiss timekeepers Raymond Weil had claimed Theron reneged on an endorsement contract specifying that she wear their watches - and only their watches - 24/7. The "Monster" star tried to fight the claims back in February, but this week a judge ruled that the proceedings must indeed go to trial. At stake? The "substantial funds" that Raymond Weil wants back, estimated by lawyers to be $20 million.


https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/charlize-suit-closely-watched-article-1.301716

https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/watch-brand-sues-ambassador-charlize-theron-12m/852723


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> The most effective ads - in my observation - are those which conjure up a problem, and offer a solution. I recently bought some magnifier glasses after seeing an ad for them on TV. I ordered them online as soon as I saw the ad, because the ad reminded me of a real problem I have (seeing small objects, like bracelet screws, in my not-very-well-lit office).
> 
> Most watch ads don't do that. The Ranger ad actually did - it reminded me I'm a chubby, pale, middle-aged man living in a virtually sterile suburb, but it's not too late for me to squeeze in a few more adventures before I die. I may not have added "buy a Tudor" to my bucket list, but I suspect that ad got more people thinking about buying a Tudor than the one with David Beckham.


Watch ads used to do that more often, but it was easier to do that when they were selling them as high-performance tools.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

3WR said:


> Few random thoughts on ads.
> 
> Where are you all seeing them? I only see the celebs if I happen to go to a brand's site.


Lotta watch billboards 'round here. Including one with Clooney and the Speedmaster.

Mostly I see them in magazines, though.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

92gli said:


> If Anton Chigurh wore Nth I'd instantly want more of them :-d


Never fails, I always have to Goggle someone or something in this forum.

Wonder where this photograph was taken? Omega's 'Far East' manufacture?


----------



## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

RmacMD said:


> Never fails, I always have to Goggle someone or something in this forum.
> 
> Wonder where this photograph was taken? Omega's 'Far East' manufacture?
> View attachment 14755711


It's at a service center....


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

RmacMD said:


> Never fails, I always have to Goggle someone or something in this forum.
> 
> Wonder where this photograph was taken? Omega's 'Far East' manufacture?
> View attachment 14755711


I didn't realise Clooney was so short......


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Why am I now shopping for Nespresso...


Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Sorry, but Cara has me wanting to buy a Tag...


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> Sorry, but Cara has me wanting to buy a Tag...


Don't do it.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> Sorry, but Cara has me wanting to buy a Tag...


That's not what she spends her own money on:

https://canoe.com/entertainment/cel...ashley-benson-buy-bondage-bench-for-love-nest


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Rice and Gravy said:


> I can't imagine selling my 2254 for anything. Love is a strong word for inanimate wrist jewelry that tells time, but I love mine. And a strong affection is building with my new Aqua Terra too. No Swatch shenanigans to be found and I have no idea who the Omega ambassadors are, but to each their own.


Gorgeous watches. The sword hand SMPs are definitely my favorites of them all, followed by the first gen ceramics. Be careful putting them that close together though!! I used to take double watch wrist shots like that, and the crown on your SMP will scratch the hell out of the case of your A-T if you let them just touch. It happens amazingly easily.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Avo said:


> IMO, all of those are legit business expenses, inherent to the product and letting potential customers know about it. Paying George Clooney (and many others) a few million a year to pretend he likes your product? Nope, not OK by me. In my mind, it cheapens the product. If the product is so good, why does a celebrity need to be paid to say so?
> 
> In most areas of life, there's nothing we can do about it. Back in the day Pepsi paid Brittany Spears $50M, and god knows what Coke paid Cosby.
> 
> But there are lots of excellent watch makers that don't pay celebrities. NTH for example. So we have a choice.


I don't really get it. Lincoln spends a ton of money to get Matthew McConaughey to pretend he likes their cars. Cadillac spends a ton of money on brain dead marketing "wizards" who move Cadillac's HQ to NY to be where the cool kids are (they have since abandoned that and moved back to Detroit) and started a subscription service (which I'm pretty sure they've abandoned) and created a new twin-turbo V8 for one car that is already on the green mile on its way to the electric chair.

Lincoln's product planners are executing flawlessly. If you look at what they've released lately - Navigator, Aviator, Corsair - the brand that used to hawk silver-trimmed Fords for an extra $10K, and at one point wasn't far from the gallows itself, is now competing with the world's best from Germany and holding their own, something even Lexus has never managed. Cadillac on the other hand is fumbling around in the dark. So which is worse? Blowing money on a celebrity endorsement, but delivering a world class product, or blowing money on a crew of inept managers (all of whom have since been fired) and delivering mediocre product?

Additionally, aside from the cars themselves, you really get an idea from everything else they've been doing lately that Lincoln knows what they are, and knows where they want to go, and that goes _in_ to the end product. Lincoln has fully embraced the _Mad Men_ '60s chic thing. Cadillac again hasn't a clue what they're doing. In my mind, I don't see a Corsair as over-priced, despite whatever they're paying McConaughey, because they're right up there with the X3, Q5, and GLC. The XT4 on the other hand _is_ over-priced.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

As for watch ads specifically, I really couldn't care less who has what on their wrist. Chances are I don't even know who they are. What does work on me are pictures of dive watches either at the ocean, or in it. I've never gone down deeper than snorkel depth, but a sunny pic of a diver in the sand always reminds me that whatever I'm doing at that particular moment, I'd rather be doing that. In my opinion, this pic sells the Aquis far better than George Clooney ever could.

View attachment 14756771


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

RmacMD said:


> Never fails, I always have to Goggle someone or something in this forum.
> 
> Wonder where this photograph was taken? Omega's 'Far East' manufacture?
> View attachment 14755711


Does this sort of endorsement mean that the watch Clooney serviced is now a rare collectible?

"I can prove George fixed my watch! His fingerprint is all over the inside of the crystal and caseback!"


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

On all this advertising stuff I think it’s really important to understand the difference between luxury and non-luxury products.

In non-luxury, you have a product. You spend money on a marketing campaign to increase sales. If they increase enough, the campaign is profitable and you call it a success. It doesn’t really matter what the campaign actually was. If celebrity endorsements give return on investment, great. If it’s giving money to youtubers, great. They stand on their own and don’t really have any direct effect on what the customer pays.

In luxury the brand is the product. You spend money on marketing campaigns to increase the value of the brand. Its desirability. Its exclusivity. The campaign doesn’t need to work on the purchaser. David Beckham might not make you buy a watch, but it might make someone else understand that your Tudor is a big deal. That’s what matters. Campaigns that shift product but damage the brand are a failure. What you pay for the product is determined purely by the success of all that marketing because better brand means higher price.

Of course, this isn’t binary. All products sit somewhere on the line between commodity and luxury, and most companies have brands to cover the whole range.

Most of the watch brands discussed on this forum are well toward the luxury end of the scale. Hell, Rolex is probably the most successful luxury brand ever. 

WIS like to pretend we are making contemplated rational purchases on this stuff, and we are probably a bit more discerning than your average luxury watch purchaser, but we really are all buying unnecessary treats for ourselves here. Of course we’re influenced by the standing of the brand, and of course none of us came to understand that on our own. If you think marketing doesn’t affect you, you’re easy prey.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I completely agree with everything you say. It's just that, personally, I choose to opt-out from buying brands that use celebrity shills. Marketing is not universal: celebrity shills are highly effective on the vast majority of the population (which is why they are so universally used), but I am in the tiny minority that views them as a negative, so much so that I won't buy the product if a viable alternative exists.

And in the world of watches, there are plenty of viable alternatives (e.g., NTH).


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Avo said:


> I completely agree with everything you say. It's just that, personally, I choose to opt-out from buying brands that use celebrity shills. Marketing is not universal: celebrity shills are highly effective on the vast majority of the population (which is why they are so universally used), but I am in the tiny minority that views them as a negative, so much so that I won't buy the product if a viable alternative exists.
> 
> And in the world of watches, there are plenty of viable alternatives (e.g., NTH).


Funny, I avoid products that feature "real people" endorsement. Mostly, the overall population can't tell the difference between .... and Shinola. Plus, OMG GM commercials suck!

I avoid things that annoy me, generally. I'm not going to bother applying any personal justification for this behaviour, as that annoys me too.

In the watch world, avoiding celebrity "endorsement" is nigh on improbable, at least for the mainstream brands. Easier with independent brands, but still present for some.

As far as NTH not using celebrity endorsed sales... Doc is pretty famous 'round these parts, maybe not celebrity enough to have undergarments sail towards him as he enjoys a delicious pint, while minding his own beeswax... but he does live across the continent from Edmonton... heh. Wonder what the WIS equivalent to that would be, chucking SKXs?

Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Would not buy anything mcgongley (or whatever his name is) endorsed. He don’t know crap about watches or suvs. Lincoln s are overpriced Fords, and tags are vastly overpriced Heuers.


----------



## stamonkey (Jan 1, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> Would not buy anything mcgongley (or whatever his name is) endorsed. He don't know crap about watches or suvs. Lincoln s are overpriced Fords, and tags are vastly overpriced Heuers.


Alright alright alright


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

"Lincoln Lawyer" was pretty good, though


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

stamonkey said:


> Alright alright alright


This thread has left me dazed and confused.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

Ike2 said:


> This thread has left me dazed and confused.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It took me on a roller coaster ride, just like this song.
[video] 



[/video]


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> Would not buy anything mcgongley (or whatever his name is) endorsed. He don't know crap about watches or suvs. Lincoln s are overpriced Fords, and tags are vastly overpriced Heuers.


It'd be a lot cooler if you did.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Speaking of all of this stuff... In one of the earlier McConaughey / Lincoln TV commercials I can remember, he was getting dressed before driving off into the night in a Lincoln. There was a close up of him pushing in the crown on a Cle de Cartier. Despite myself, I actually thought the whole thing was kind of cool. And I had to go look up what that unique crown was all about.

Surely there was some arrangement between Lincoln and Cartier, right? Lincoln paid Cartier to use their brand next to their own? Or Lincoln approached watch brands seeing who would be willing to pay to be in Lincoln's commercial with McConaughey? Maybe Lincoln and Cartier are both clients of the same ad agency.

Or maybe they didn't actually show the name "Cartier" on screen. Can't recall now. The watch brand seemed pretty obvious to me, though.









I have to admit the recent ice fishing commercial appeals to me. The initial shot of the interior looks nice. The scenery is beautiful. And I kind of like the Aviator's vibe - at least from afar. The only thing McConaughey adds (as opposed to any other anonymous person doing the fishing) is a little justification for the seemingly bizarre plot.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> Would not buy anything mcgongley (or whatever his name is) endorsed. He don't know crap about watches or suvs. Lincoln s are overpriced Fords, and tags are vastly overpriced Heuers.


Up to around 5 years ago, I'd agree. You really should see what the new ones are like, though. The transformation from tarted up Fords to world beaters has been pretty remarkable.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> Speaking of all of this stuff... In one of the earlier McConaughey / Lincoln TV commercials I can remember, he was getting dressed before driving off into the night in a Lincoln. There was a close up of him pushing in the crown on a Cle de Cartier. Despite myself, I actually thought the whole thing was kind of cool. And I had to go look up what that unique crown was all about.
> 
> Surely there was some arrangement between Lincoln and Cartier, right? Lincoln paid Cartier to use their brand next to their own? Or Lincoln approached watch brands seeing who would be willing to pay to be in Lincoln's commercial with McConaughey? Maybe Lincoln and Cartier are both clients of the same ad agency.
> 
> ...


The Cartier connection is no accident. In years past, Lincoln had "Cartier edition" models that were usually the top trim of whatever Lincoln Mark or Town Car, many of which had Cartier clocks in them. Here's one form 1978.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Davekaye90 said:


> The Cartier connection is no accident. In years past, Lincoln had "Cartier edition" models that were usually the top trim of whatever Lincoln Mark or Town Car, many of which had Cartier clocks in them. Here's one form 1978.
> 
> View attachment 14759129


Beat me to it. One of my uncles used to roll around philly during the polyester era in his cartier continental. That car fascinated me when I was little.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

I love that the clock has a IV instead of IIII, kudos Cartier. It kinda makes me want to buy the car, even if it is a Lincoln/Ford.


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

Lincoln Cartier editions

Lincoln Continental Cartier Clock Myth


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

If I can go off topic here, I finally got around to putting my NTH BOR onto my Nazario.

I can't remember ever having put an NTH bracelet back onto the watch, and I never noticed that little lip on the end links until the NTH BOR web page pointed it out, but man, that is da bomb! I often struggle with getting everything lined up to re-install a tight-fitting bracelet, but that little lip made it super easy - barely an inconvenience!

Are other bracelets made with those? Have I just missed it all this time?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> If I can go off topic here, I finally got around to putting my NTH BOR onto my Nazario.
> 
> I can't remember ever having put an NTH bracelet back onto the watch, and I never noticed that little lip on the end links until the NTH BOR web page pointed it out, but man, that is da bomb! I often struggle with getting everything lined up to re-install a tight-fitting bracelet, but that little lip made it super easy - barely an inconvenience!
> 
> ...


As far as I know, that's been consistent with all the bracelets we've gotten with each model that had a bracelet.

I don't think it's all that uncommon when you have a bracelet that was made for a particular watch. Perhaps it's less common with generic, after-market bracelets, or maybe with certain brands, it's less common.

I may be wrong. I can't remember if the watches I've had from other brands also had it. I'd go check the bracelets I have for my two Seikos and the Citizen, but I don't feel like doing it right now. If I remember, I'll look tomorrow when I'm back in the office.

PS - the bracelet looks great with the Nazario.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Having or not having that little lip is a bit random, and ime depends on the bracelet manufacturer more than generic vs. custom. Plenty of watches with made-for bracelets without such lip.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Avo said:


> That's not what she spends her own money on:
> 
> https://canoe.com/entertainment/cel...ashley-benson-buy-bondage-bench-for-love-nest


If you think this makes me want to buy a Tag less, because they pay her to hawk their wares, you would be wrong...


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes, I know I'm wrong for the vast majority of people, which is exactly why Tag pays her.

But I'm in the small minority who is negatively affected by celebrity shilling. For us, there are alternatives: microbrands (including NTH), and at the high end, RGM, GO, ALS, just to name three (although for the latter two we have to be willing to discount the fact that they are in conglomerates with other brands that do use celebrity shills).


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Avo said:


> Yes, I know I'm wrong for the vast majority of people, which is exactly why Tag pays her.
> 
> But I'm in the small minority who is negatively affected by celebrity shilling. For us, there are alternatives: microbrands (including NTH), and at the high end, RGM, GO, ALS, just to name three (although for the latter two we have to be willing to discount the fact that they are in conglomerates with other brands that do use celebrity shills).


Isn't describing celebrity endorsement (or participation in advertising) as shilling quite harsh?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I won't not buy a watch just because a celebrity is being paid to advertise or endorse the product, and in some cases (see Cara, above), I applaud the effort. 

It wouldn't sway me toward buying a watch, however. Even if I did just pick up a "Zissou" Amphibia... Woops.

But no plans on buying a Tag anytime soon. A used Twintime or Carrera would be more my style, anyway, and there are other GMT and three-handers I'd pick up before either of these two. 

That sex-bench, however...


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Celebrity endorsement or advertising does not bother me, but what I do dislike is product placement in films, especially where it is obvious that the scene has been written around getting the product in or the logo is lingered on for far too long....... 

......James Bond I'm looking at you.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Hornet99 said:


> Isn't describing celebrity endorsement (or participation in advertising) as shilling quite harsh?


Remember the Tiger Woods Special Edition Tag? Tiger just loved that Tag that he helped design! Then, WHOOPS, Tiger had his little kerfuffle, and Tag (and most other companies that contributed to the estimated $90M/year - not a typo - that Tiger was taking in back then from endorsements) dropped him. Rolex stepped in (recognizing, as most did not, that the kerfuffle would soon be forgotten). And now? Tiger just loves his Rolex Deepsea!!! (Go the the Rolex site and read all about it.)

So: is it harsh to describe Tiger Woods as a celebrity shill?

I have my opinion, you are fully entitled to yours.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

OG










And some day lume to go with it










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Scorpène Blue










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Not too long ago, this was for sale. Now it is not.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Avo said:


> Remember the Tiger Woods Special Edition Tag? Tiger just loved that Tag that he helped design! Then, WHOOPS, Tiger had his little kerfuffle, and Tag (and most other companies that contributed to the estimated $90M/year - not a typo - that Tiger was taking in back then from endorsements) dropped him. Rolex stepped in (recognizing, as most did not, that the kerfuffle would soon be forgotten). And now? Tiger just loves his Rolex Deepsea!!! (Go the the Rolex site and read all about it.)
> 
> So: is it harsh to describe Tiger Woods as a celebrity shill?
> 
> I have my opinion, you are fully entitled to yours.


I do see your point, but I thought that a shill was something that wasn't obvious or clear, any celebrity endorsement is obviously part of a financial transaction......


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Like if someone calling themselves Tiger Woods showed up here espousing the wonderful qualities of Rolex without revealing their endorsement affiliation, one might rightfully accuse them of being a shill. But as an obviously paid endorser of a product...?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

All I know is Tom Selleck is dreamy enough to make me want a Ferrari 328, a Rolex Pepsi GMT, and a reverse mortgage.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hornet99 said:


> Celebrity endorsement or advertising does not bother me, but what I do dislike is product placement in films, especially where it is obvious that the scene has been written around getting the product in or the logo is lingered on for far too long.......
> 
> ......James Bond I'm looking at you.


Yeah! Carl F. Bucherer.
I honestly never thought the way they advertises in several movies lately would have gotten me off-putting. But somehow it did.

In general I have no problem with celebrity endorsement, in fact I kinda like how Tudor does it with Lady Gaga.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



wtma said:


> Yeah! Carl F. Bucherer.
> I honestly never thought the way they advertises in several movies lately would have gotten me off-putting. But somehow it did.
> 
> In general I have no problem with celebrity endorsement, in fact I kinda like how Tudor does it with Lady Gaga.


Y'all can think what you want.

When Bucherer comes out with that time-travel watch that Cable was wearing in Deadpool 2, I'm getting one, then I'm going back to 1982, and making some changes...


----------



## Roy Hobbs (May 14, 2016)

Bucherer featured in the John Wick series. Apparently Keanu was a fan of the brand first. Who knows.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> Like if someone calling themselves Tiger Woods showed up here espousing the wonderful qualities of Rolex without revealing their endorsement affiliation, one might rightfully accuse them of being a shill. But as an obviously paid endorser of a product...?


But in fact the celebrities don't reveal that they're paid. For example, where on the Rolex Tiger Woods page does it say that they paid him? Answer: nowhere. We just INFER it because we're not stupid.

When the companies start telling us in EVERY AD how much the celebrity was paid to do it, then I will refrain from calling them shills.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Avo said:


> But in fact the celebrities don't reveal that they're paid. For example, where on the Rolex Tiger Woods page does it say that they paid him? Answer: nowhere. We just INFER it because we're not stupid.
> 
> When the companies start telling us in EVERY AD how much the celebrity was paid to do it, then I will refrain from calling them shills.


They don't reveal how much they are paid, but it's public knowledge that they are paid.......


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Avo said:


> But in fact the celebrities don't reveal that they're paid. For example, where on the Rolex Tiger Woods page does it say that they paid him? Answer: nowhere. We just INFER it because we're not stupid.
> 
> When the companies start telling us in EVERY AD how much the celebrity was paid to do it, then I will refrain from calling them shills.


So anyone who does ads or promotes a product is shilling? If they don't disclose their pay?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

How's about a pic of a lovely NTH sub?










Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

^ That and the Skipjack are probably my favorite models, but I think I prefer the brighter white of the Nacken


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Someone needs to sell the watches that get made. Those people are getting paid to do so, one way or the other.

Even if the company relies heavily, if not "entirely" on word-of-mouth advertising from customers, at some point, if you go back far enough in the timeline, someone had to sell those first watches to the first customers.

I understand a knee-jerk reaction to celebrity endorsements. Celebrities are likely already very wealthy, and the ads frequently only remind us that we're not as fabulous and as wealthy or as glamorous as they are. Why give them more of our money, by buying the watch from the company paying them even MORE money, right?

But, I don't see the point in drawing distinctions between the celebrity endorser and the guy working the counter in the local AD, or the ad agency, or the online taste-makers getting paid in cash or product, or the brand owner engaging through social media.

Y'all know I make money doing this, right? If I want to take some of that money, and invest it in a brand ambassador, or an ad agency, or an influencer, it doesn't cost my customers anything. It costs me something. I'm not raising prices because I'm spending more on advertising, or lowering them if I'm paying less. 

That marketing expense is just one of many operational costs my business incurs in the course of doing business. Even if I spend nothing, by not having a brand ambassador, or ad agency, or working with influencers, or working with retailers, I'm still spending my time, and time is money. 

The marketing budget really isn't a cost that gets built into the price of the watch. At most, I think that brands which spend more on marketing feel like they have more ability to ask higher prices, so there's a general correlation, if not a direct relationship between marketing budgets and prices. But whether a brand has a celebrity endorser or not falls under that marketing umbrella - it's not a separate expense.

The investment of my time or my money is one I'd make if I believe it will drive more sales. To borrow a phrase from my days in the Army, I'm looking for a "force multiplier" effect. If hiring a better looking, more well known person to sell the watches drives a lot more sales than I can by doing it myself, and the numbers make sense, then it's a winner, and we do it. If not, then it's a loser, and we don't.

The one big risk I see is that the tactic backfires. I think brands quickly lose credibility and goodwill when they choose the wrong tactic, or execute that tactic poorly, or it doesn't align with the brand image very well. There's always the "I hate celebrity endorsements" element, but I suspect it is indeed a small minority of people who are automatically turned off by them, enough to avoid the brand or models entirely, or enough for the brand to feel any effect.

No doubt Daniel Craig and Leo DiCaprio work well for Omega and Tag, respectively. Everyone wants to be James Bond. And I suspect Leo plays well with the 25-35 age demographic that grew up watching him, which seems like it would be the demo Tag would want to cultivate, being generally priced lower than Omega.

I'm not so sure how well Lady Gaga works for Tudor. How many 25-65 year old men are going to be influenced by what she says, and how many women are shopping for any version of the Black Bay, rather than a Chanel J2 ceramic, some blinged-out Cartier, or a ladies Datejust?


----------



## Mr_Finer_Things (Jul 12, 2017)

Love me some Lady Gaga and Tudor










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

This just in, thanks to Chris Ford - apparently the NTH Subs' bracelets fit the Omega Speedmaster...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

JLS36 said:


> So anyone who does ads or promotes a product is shilling? If they don't disclose their pay?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Not quite.
Anyone who promotes a product based on financial or otherwise personal gain, and not based on genuine preference of that product, is fundamentally a shill. Some shills are paid, hence the term "paid shill".

For a clear example of contemporary, balls-deep shilling, this youtube channel is spot on:


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> This just in, thanks to Chris Ford - apparently the NTH Subs' bracelets fit the Omega Speedmaster...


Not like I'm in the market for a Speedy, but this is cool. Especially after the disclaimer the lip may make it difficult to fit other watches, being specific for Nth.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

This ad is just awesome! Honestly this ad might have played a little part in my decision to buy the BB36.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Per Wiki:
"Shill: A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization."

In this sense, I don't think celebrity endorsers are shills, in the technical definition of the term. There's an element of subterfuge missing when a company's marketing department makes ad buys which directly associate a celebrity or public figure with their product and brand. Tiger wearing a Rolex, or Lady Gaga wearing a Tudor even outside official marketing efforts would not be considered shilling because there's a very public record of their paid endorsement of such products represented by print and electronic media ads. 

Shill: some rap dude who wears a Richard Mille, mentions it in interviews, includes such bling by name in his songs. 
- Paid endorser of Richard Mille -- not a shill
- No affiliation whatsoever with Richard Mille, just likes the product or recognizes it as a status symbol luxury brand -- not a shill
- Richard Mille pays the artist or gifts with free merch but does not acknowledge the official connection -- shill

Shill: YouTube reviewer who does not disclose they received a gratis watch for review.
Not a shill: YouTube reviewer who alerts viewers that the watch they are reviewing was given to them for free in exchange for the review.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

RuggerAl said:


> Not like I'm in the market for a Speedy, but this is cool. Especially after the disclaimer the lip may make it difficult to fit other watches, being specific for Nth.


Not cool: while I'm not in the market for a Speedy, I might conceivably want a BOR bracelet for an NTH, and when word of this gets out to the Omega fanbois, I can see a run on these things happening...


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> Not cool: while I'm not in the market for a Speedy, I might conceivably want a BOR bracelet for an NTH, and when word of this gets out to the Omega fanbois, I can see a run on these things happening...


Welp, I bought one already for a Ghost. I'm this close <holds fingers touching so fingernails are near each other> to getting a second NTH, and at that time will purchase another BOR from Doc directly, for those sweet sweet reward points I'll likely never cash in. So hopefully the run on BOR doesn't occur before about 6 pm today. <finds something wooden to knock on>

By the by, as not to double post, a while back I asked if Doc had a library of sorts for the watches he's made. At the time I asked (pre-NTH dedicated page, JanisTradingCo.com(?)), the only response back I got was a glib, "no". Fast forward to two weeks ago, I'm surfing the new web page just for lulz (near the announcement of the new editions, limited releases) and low and behold, most the NTH watches are collected in one place for viewing of what was, and what is. FANCY THAT!

So, there is still a missing release date info on the watches. I attempted to cherry pick random pages out of this thread, but that's a fools errand at ~1.7k pages. Well, lookie there, a review page on the website. Neatly curated by date, it has most of the NTH watches, either by mention or in detail. Found what I was looking for. Lo and behold, the Ghost is a birth year watch for my 2nd kid, and I'm now able to reasonably search and find a byw for my first kid. That was the genisis of my original question, if NTH had what I was looking for, or do I venture into the wilderness and give someone else my money.
THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT! (except when they're not)


----------



## Metallman (May 8, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> Not cool: while I'm not in the market for a Speedy, I might conceivably want a BOR bracelet for an NTH, and when word of this gets out to the Omega fanbois, I can see a run on these things happening...


I agree, not cool. Now that Doc has figured out a way to tap the Omega market, that BOR is now a $250 bracelet.....


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

Metallman said:


> I agree, not cool. Now that Doc has figured out a way to tap the Omega market, that BOR is now a $250 bracelet.....


To demand that price, he may need a shill. Who is this Chris Ford guy anyhow? Not sure there's enough star power associated with Nth to demand those type prices, hopefully.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Someone needs to sell the watches that get made. Those people are getting paid to do so, one way or the other.
> 
> Even if the company relies heavily, if not "entirely" on word-of-mouth advertising from customers, at some point, if you go back far enough in the timeline, someone had to sell those first watches to the first customers.
> 
> ...


So you're admitting to being a celebrity shill then? b-)


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Not quite.
> Anyone who promotes a product based on financial or otherwise personal gain, and not based on genuine preference of that product, is fundamentally a shill. Some shills are paid, hence the term "paid shill".
> 
> For a clear example of contemporary, balls-deep shilling, this youtube channel is spot on:


Didn't watch the video but I'm presuming the presenter doesn't reveal he's being paid or affiliated to MVMT?


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

You should watch the video, it's ridiculous. The guy is a slut, his words. There is no mention of affiliation with MVMT, other than he'd f with it, just as he likes to f with Rollies. Actual significance of video- this MVMT has an auto movement instead of quartz, so folks should respect the hell out of it, like Rolex, but cheaper.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

Pending payment and delivery, I'm the new owner (custodian) of a Nth Amphion Vintage! Someone tried to snipe it from me at the end, under 10 seconds, but the auto-up bid covered the transgression. What a dingus.

What new watches will NTH come out with in 2022/3? Will they adjust for an actual lady sized watch or will the Dolphin still be the du jour?

Now to finish purchasing a BOR (or is that poops, something something shining a turd?) before some influencer gets to Doc and the Omega fanbois drive the price higher than affordable. 
Got distracted from post- BOR ordered, with a UV torch, because why not, it's only money.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> By the by, as not to double post, a while back I asked if Doc had a library of sorts for the watches he's made. At the time I asked (pre-NTH dedicated page, JanisTradingCo.com(?)), the only response back I got was a glib, "no". Fast forward to two weeks ago, I'm surfing the new web page just for lulz (near the announcement of the new editions, limited releases) and low and behold, most the NTH watches are collected in one place for viewing of what was, and what is. FANCY THAT!


I only vaguely remember this. "Glib" rings a bell, though...

Sorry for being glib. Possibly I misunderstood you, and thought you were asking me if I maintain a literal, physical library of everything we've ever made.

No, I don't. That's way too many watches for me to own.

Also possibly, and equally likely, I precisely understood you to mean a virtual library, on a website.

Also, no, we don't. The site only shows those watches which are:

A - In stock on our site, or one of our retailer's, and/or...

B - Recent releases which we may make again, but that doesn't rule out...

C - Stuff we made a while ago, and might make again, but the last time I thought about it, I didn't feel like making them visible on the site, either because I didn't want to get emails from people asking when we'd make them again, or just because we're slowly migrating away from using old photography, and plan to update those product pages with new 3D illustrations, showing the new versions, if they are new, or simply the new bracelet, which is new.

I understand WIS like it when a company maintains some sort of immortal archive of product info, but few companies do that, and the ones who do likely aren't ones I'd want to model my business after.

Rolex doesn't show you the specs on the older Subs versions. Seiko doesn't show you the old, discontinued SARBs. Why do I need to maintain product info for a product that's been sold out a while, if we have no intention of bringing it back? That's like the J. Crew catalog showing you jeans from the '90's.

I figure, if someone wants that info badly enough, they're already on the internet, so...there's this little thing called "Google", and they might want to Google it...because that info is out there, somewhere, I'm sure, and if it ain't, oh well, not really my concern, and doesn't need to be my problem.

Really is amazing I don't have more friends...



RuggerAl said:


> So, there is still a missing release date info on the watches. I attempted to cherry pick random pages out of this thread, but that's a fools errand at ~1.7k pages. Well, lookie there, a review page on the website. Neatly curated by date, it has most of the NTH watches, either by mention or in detail. Found what I was looking for. Lo and behold, the Ghost is a birth year watch for my 2nd kid, and I'm now able to reasonably search and find a byw for my first kid. That was the genisis of my original question, if NTH had what I was looking for, or do I venture into the wilderness and give someone else my money.
> THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT! (except when they're not)


Release date on the watches?

My first guess was you were talking about upcoming models. We tend to announce those dates when I'm more or less certain we won't be blowing past them. Nothing l love more than being reminded that I said we'd be selling something in January, and here we are, and we're not selling it yet.

But the context here makes it clear that you were hoping to find the past release dates for every model...

Ugh...kill me now.

Do I need to build a WOT for this one? I can...

Short version - there's no obvious place to put that with every product on the website, where people would know to look for it, and see it there. The most obvious place would be on the product page somewhere, in the description, or the specs, but in my observation, most people don't bother to read the descriptions on those pages, and many fail to find and/or read the specs there.

Plus, assuming I did put them there - that opens up a huge and new can of worms...

First - how important is this, and to how many people? Is it stopping anyone from actually buying a watch, since, you know, my job is selling them? Do I have to add "go back and figure out the production & release dates on 40+ models, and add it to each product's page on the website" to my already too-long agenda of important projects?

Believe it or not, I don't have an easy way to go back and figure this out. The back-end of our website doesn't allow me to search all order records for specific models, and have only those EXACT models included in the results. I can't exclude any model names with ANY of the same words. So, the Barracuda Vintage Black is going to show up in a search looking for orders of the Näcken Vintage Black.

I'd have to go back and look for my old blog posts, email blasts, Instagram posts, or the disorganized mess that is my "NTH" folder on the laptop.

How do I differentiate between the *original* release date and the most recent release date, for models we've produced more than once?

How do I get people to understand that "originally released in 2016" doesn't mean the watches we have for sale in 2020 have been sitting around for four years?

Let's say someone is looking for a "birth year" watch for a kid. I can peg the year we produced a watch (close enough, more or less, on most of them), if it's something we have in stock now, or had recently, or if it was a limited edition, or something we only made once. But I've lost track of how many times we've produced some of the more popular models (and even some of the less popular ones).

And...what if we assembled and sold a watch in 2019 using some parts we actually produced in 2018? Is that a 2018 watch or a 2019 watch?

And...since I'm sold out, and depending on what you're looking for, there's a possibility you could end up buying a used one from the wrong year.

Am I going to get sued by angry parents here?

And...suppose it's January 2019, and I say the release date on a watch was "2018". I know, as sure as I'm sitting here typing this WOT, that some OCD-cursed WIS are going to want to know which MONTH we produced those watches in 2018, so they're not getting an "old, dried out one" (seriously, dude, go buy a f**King quartz - yes, I'm thinking about someone specific here), or because someone's kid was born in November, so he really wants one from November (or February, depending on which night you want to commemorate - the birth, or the conception).

Once we're having that discussion (which I don't want to have), I know the "can I get a specific serial number" question is coming, or "can I get it with a blue bezel, because my kid has blue eyes, and now I've got blue balls..."

Ultimately, things like this always lead to the same destination - me wanting to chuck my laptop across the office, when I get besieged with pointless requests for more info, none of which seems to help me sell (a lot) more watches.

But, because I probably could use more friends, I'll help you out...

November 2018 release - Bahia, Carolina, Catalina, Dolphin Ice, Dolphin Magenta, Nazario Sauro, and Scorpène Blue.

Everything else you see on the NTH Subs collection page was produced in 2019.

All the other Subs (the ones you don't see) were produced between April 2016 and November 2018.

The ones you don't see:

2016 - I think it's just Amphion Modern Black, Amphion Vintage Black and Oberon that are missing. I can't remember for certain whether or not we made a second run of the Näcken Vintage Black, but I think we did, in 2017, but it may have been 2018.

2017 - Amphion Dark Gilt, and Amphion Vintage Blue, for sure (I think). Could be the Näcken Vintage Black, too.

2017/2018 (not sure) - Santa Fe, Tiburón, and Zwaardvis, and also maybe the Näcken Vintage Black.

If you really need to know on those versions about which I'm not sure, just search this thread by the model name, and go to the oldest post, then work your way forward. There can't possibly be that many posts with those model names in them.

The Tropics were released in 2017. The DevilRay was released in 2018. Those are easy enough.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

You're welcome for the chance to do a WOT. Clearly I celebrated having solved my first-world problem breeder-induced attempt-to-inflict-hobby for my kids. But I do enjoy watching the hamster run. Have a like, you've earned it more over than once. The questions you ask, are those rhetorical? The date of a watch should be when it was made available for purchase. Iteration specific if considering reissues, like the Nazario Sauro.

EDIT: TBF, that post probably took a good bit of time to write, more than the 6 minute difference of my previous self-congratulatory post on the Amphion Vintage. So yeah, it's all moot, got what I came for, and included NTH proper on another sale. Both boys will have a BOR, the old child will have the old standard bracelet, and the new child will have the new standard bracelet, seems fitting.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

RuggerAl said:


> You should watch the video, it's ridiculous. The guy is a slut, his words. There is no mention of affiliation with MVMT, other than he'd f with it, just as he likes to f with Rollies. Actual significance of video- this MVMT has an auto movement instead of quartz, so folks should respect the hell out of it, like Rolex, but cheaper.


I couldn't make it through more than about a minute. Rolex - over 100 years of history, makers of the most well known, most imitated luxury watches on the planet. MVMT - two college guys had the bright idea to buy some Chinese quartz watches for $5, print "MVMT" on the dial, market the hell out of them, and sell them for $100+. Heritage - MVMT. Uh...what? Very occasionally some of those "style influencer" guys actually know what they're talking about, and are worth watching. That guy ain't one of them.

This guy on the other hand despite having somewhat of a "style" channel is actually a decent watch reviewer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> The questions you ask, are those rhetorical?


Most questions I ask here are rhetorical, inasmuch as I tend to give zero f**ks about anyone's answers. The "questions I can more easily answer - with confidence - for myself versus questions I need other people to answer for me" ratio is easily 50:1.



RuggerAl said:


> The date of a watch should be when it was made available for purchase. Iteration specific if considering reissues, like the Nazario Sauro.


Mmmmmyyyyyyeaaaahhhhh...here are all (or at least SOME) of the things, about that:

1. I used to put the "production" dates on the case backs of L&H models. But production takes four months. Which month should I use? And we frequently blow past the target delivery date. I seem to recall X2-Elijah or one of the other smarta$$es in this thread scoffing at those dates because of it (sorry if that wasn't you, X2, but you no doubt know yourself well enough to know that's the sort of thing you might say, in jest, or completely serious).

2. I swear this is true - I've seen guys say they thought 4/2014 meant they got number 4 out of 2014 made. That literally (figuratively) makes all my mental gears come to a screeching halt.

3. Those markings are permanent. When we made the Spectre II, in 2017, we assembled them using cases we made as part of the original production in 2014. So...the date was wrong, if it was supposed to be the year we actually assembled and sold the watch. That wasn't exactly a one-off thing. We ordered 1000 Subs cases in 2016, and didn't assemble them all until 2018. We ordered 900 more in 2018, and the last 150 were delivered in 2019. I ordered 1800 in 2019. Wanna guess where we're getting the cases for the next ~400 pieces we're expecting now, in 2020?

4. In theory, I could get around the above by doing laser-etching, rather than stamping all the parts, but that's far from a perfect solution. It opens up another area of opportunity for mistakes to be made. I can't have a shipment of 300 watches show up here, and open them all to find out the laser numbering was done incorrectly. Plus, what do I do with our spare parts? How do we handle having to replace a 2018 case-back we scratched when the watch came in for repair, when all we have are 2019 spares?

5. Again, as I alluded to above, do I really want guys obsessing over a year of production number on a watch that we might have made 1 month ago, or 12 months ago, both of which would be marked "2019"? You may think I'm over-thinking this, but I've seen how WIS get. If I have plenty of watches for sale, for too long, my business must suck. If I'm sold out of everything, somehow, that also means my business must suck. I really don't want to provide another possible "data-point" for the armchair analysts to use against me.

6. If I put a date on the watch, I guarantee someone will ask me if I have one with an older or newer date. Please, I'm just going to lay down behind the car, and let you back it right up over me. Don't be afraid to make more than one pass. Be sure I'm dead, not just maimed.



RuggerAl said:


> EDIT: TBF, that post probably took a good bit of time to write, more than the 6 minute difference of my previous self-congratulatory post on the Amphion Vintage. So yeah, it's all moot, got what I came for, and included NTH proper on another sale. Both boys will have a BOR, the old child will have the old standard bracelet, and the new child will have the new standard bracelet, seems fitting.


It took a lot longer to write than a glib "no", for certain.

Look, I'm protective of my online reputation. In a recent thread, where most / many posts were critical of a brand, I merely _acknowledged_ a point someone else was actually making, I didn't even express my own opinion one way or the other, and next thing I know, guys are saying I was criticizing the brand.

The ONLY thing I ever said publicly about Ginault was that if the product was good, the price was fair, and people were happy with it, I wished them well. From what I understand, and seen myself, my name and brand routinely get dragged through the mud in that thread.

I need to remember my Miranda rights. ANYTHING I post online CAN and WILL be used against me, at some point, by someone. In fact, a lot of guys will make up some $hlt that I never said.

If some guy reads your post saying I only offered you a glib "no" in response to your question, he may go around saying I'm a jerk to my customers, or maybe you're making that point, here, for me to see, hoping to get my attention, and a more elaborated response. Some guys want to poke the bear, some just want to be my new best friend, or my unpaid product / marketing / branding consultant. There's a reason I hired a virtual assistant to screen my emails.

I have no idea what most people's motivations are. I can't count how many guys went from fans to foes because they didn't like the tone that *THEY READ* in one of my posts. Think about that - no one can hear my voice, but how many times do people portray me as "angry" and "ranting"?

I may have just been answering the question they asked. But if the response was too short, or too long, or used too many big words, or sounded angry when I thought it was funny - they're off to the races, running around, acting like I kicked their dog.

There's likely a well-thought-out and logical reason behind everything I do, and everything I DON'T do. You raised the questions, you got the responses. Thanks for your business. Sorry the first answer was too short, the second was too long, and this one might sound angry, even though I'm not angry at you or anyone else.

Now if you'll all excuse me, I hear a bottle of Vodka and a plate of meat loaf calling my name, and I gotta say, this is a double-woofer siren song I simply can't resist.

I'm out (at least until later).

PEACE!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

PS, not for nothing, I think you meant to describe my "no" response as curt, not glib, though no doubt that might be descriptive of my longer answers.

















The best (worst) thing about me being here is no matter what I post, or the length of my posts, someone will assume one or the other as my intent.


----------



## t minus (Dec 10, 2014)

I'd say this is one of the most accurate statements ever posted on WUS.



docvail said:


> ANYTHING I post online CAN and WILL be used against me, at some point, by someone.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

t minus said:


> I'd say this is one of the most accurate statements ever posted on WUS.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Nothing l love more than being reminded that I said we'd be selling something in January, and here we are, and we're not selling it yet.


*coughscorpènenomadcough*

(Yes, I know, plenty of January left, and I saw the wrist shots posted...)


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> This just in, thanks to Chris Ford - apparently the NTH Subs' bracelets fit the Omega Speedmaster...


Wait.....does that mean the speedy bracelet will fit the NTH subs??

Anyone that is not happy with the quality of the NTH bracelet can buy up to the next level!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ILiveOnWacker said:


> Wait.....does that mean the speedy bracelet will fit the NTH subs??
> 
> Anyone that is not happy with the quality of the NTH bracelet can buy up to the next level!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll defer to @cmford, but my understanding is the Subs bracelet fits the Speedy "well enough", which I took to mean it doesn't require any modifications or superhuman feats of strength and manual dexterity, but may or may not perfectly complement the Speedy's case/lugs.

I would suspect that the Speedy's bracelet would likewise fit the Subs in a similar way, much like we've seen how the Subs case and bracelet is cross-compatible with 38mm/39mm Seiko SARB/SKX cases/bracelets, and Rolex Subs cases.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> PS, not for nothing, I think you meant to describe my "no" response as curt, not glib, though no doubt that might be descriptive of my longer answers.
> The best (worst) thing about me being here is no matter what I post, or the length of my posts, someone will assume one or the other as my intent.


I meant what I said, the response was glib. I didn't need to include the tl,dr; version, so I summarized the affect to "no". Thank you for the customer attention though, in a perverse way, this is gratifying that the brand owner is so engaged with his customer base. Whatever your intent, the attention is appreciated from the majority of us, be it with responses or silence.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

For the record, I'm much more invested in a discussion about the difference between "terse" and "glib" than another discussion about static vs. dynamic pressure... but that's not saying much...


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

While I do enjoy a good read, there's a lot of fatigue sitting at a desk. There are many verbose posts, but I would never accuse anyone (Doc specifically) of bloviating.

You should use dryer sheets to relieve any of the static you're encountering. And if you don't want something to be dynamic, put it in the cold, that'll help slow down the molecules so there's not as much movement. That should work, probably.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Just love this watch......










......since I fixed the clasp flip lock I've not worn anything else 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> While I do enjoy a good read, there's a lot of fatigue sitting at a desk. There are many verbose posts, but I would never accuse anyone (Doc specifically) of bloviating.
> 
> You should use dryer sheets to relieve any of the static you're encountering. And if you don't want something to be dynamic, put it in the cold, that'll help slow down the molecules so there's not as much movement. That should work, probably.


You write like Philly people sound.

And it's all good.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> You write like Philly people sound.
> 
> And it's all good.


But without all the "fakin dis" and "fakin dat".


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ILiveOnWacker said:


> Wait.....does that mean the speedy bracelet will fit the NTH subs??
> 
> Anyone that is not happy with the quality of the NTH bracelet can buy up to the next level!


That would also give you the option of the Omega quick-adjust clasp, by adding the appropriate clasp and links to a Speedy bracelet. Of course, at that point, the bracelet and extras would cost more than the watch, but it wouldn't be the first time I've done that.

If I find a little free time this weekend, I'll give it a try.

BTW, Uncle Seiko is selling Speedy compatible bracelets, starting with a BOR. I bought one but haven't tested it out yet. Initial reports are that the clasp isn't great and the end links can scratch the case. They'll be making other Speedy compatible bracelets, so that may open up more NTH bracelet replacement options.
https://www.uncleseiko.com/store/c20/Omega.html


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Just ordered my second NTH. Nazario Azzurro from WatchGauge. Already eyeing my third NTH purchase.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Next episode of Doc's House Calls is up.

Sorry about the sound. My external mic wasn't working right.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Does anyone have/wanting to sell an NTH Nazario (the original one - black waffle dial with the vintage lumed California dial)?


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)




----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



redzebra said:


> View attachment 14769041


Wow that's beautiful! For sale? Wishful thinking.....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## redzebra (Mar 6, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



jerseydan31 said:


> Wow that's beautiful! For sale? Wishful thinking.....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you. Sorry, no, not for sale.
This was one of 40 made by Doc... all sold. He is making 10 more but they are spoken for and there is a waiting list in case one of the 10 pulls out.
So I would say yes... wishful thinking.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok no worries. I’ll get in the back of the line.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Does anyone have/wanting to sell an NTH Nazario (the original one - black waffle dial with the vintage lumed California dial)?
> 
> View attachment 14769053


Probably also wishful thinking. Only 25 made, just about 2 years ago now.

Funny how many people hated it when we first revealed it. I wasn't going to make it, but John @ Watch Gauge loved it, so here we are.

Watch Gauge still has a few of the Azzurro (blue sunburst), and he's taking pre-orders on the Sauro (white, full-lume) which we're hoping to ship to him within the next few weeks. And he'll be getting a few more of the Ghost (black with white-frame markers) in early next week.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I've got my Sauro on order, and the end of January can't come fast enough. AND the Ghost is making a comeback? I'm gonna need more money. Now if I could only get my hands on an Azores Vanilla....


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> WeirdGuy said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone have/wanting to sell an NTH Nazario (the original one - black waffle dial with the vintage lumed California dial)?
> ...


I figured, but still thought I'd ask. Id never seen the original until today. I already have a Ghost and just bought an Azzurro from John today. I appreciate you answering though, even if it hurts. Lol.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I've got my Sauro on order, and the end of January can't come fast enough. AND the Ghost is making a comeback? I'm gonna need more money. Now if I could only get my hands on an Azores Vanilla....


First post!

EPIC!

Welcome to the madness.

Yes, we assembled a few more Ghosts for WG. He should have them ready to sell sometime next week.

We're working on a new version of the Azores, for production later this year (hopefully).

In the meantime, they come up for sale used, sometimes. Set up an alert on WatchRecon.com and eBay.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> I figured, but still thought I'd ask. Id never seen the original until today. I already have a Ghost and just bought an Azzurro from John today. I appreciate you answering though, even if it hurts. Lol.


No pain, no gain.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Thanks for the welcome, Doc! I've been stalking this thread, your site and WG for months now... just couldn't pull the trigger. Then I saw the Sauro was coming back, and it just whispered sweet nothings in my ear. I'm still fairly new to the watch addiction... but i definitely have the bug bad. I think my future purchase list is about 20 watches strong 😬


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Ok, just added the third NTH. Nacken Modern Black w/date from WatchGauge. Thankfully I was able to scoop up the last one they had. Hornet99's pic above, sold me. It's the other one I had my eyes on.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> First post!
> 
> EPIC!
> 
> ...


So keeping same case just changing dial or are you reworking the whole watch?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

WeirdGuy said:


> Just ordered my second NTH. Nazario Azzurro from WatchGauge. Already eyeing my third NTH purchase.


Nice choice. I can't believe they are still available. A Random Rob video opened my eyes to the appeal of that one. I think the watch had been for sale a while when I saw the video. I remember thinking I better go grab one while I still could. Surely what I figured were the last few would be snatched up by others who were impressed by the video like I was.

That was over 7 months ago.

Recycled photo...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

WeirdGuy said:


> Ok, just added the third NTH. Nacken Modern Black w/date from WatchGauge. Thankfully I was able to scoop up the last one they had. Hornet99's pic above, sold me. It's the other one I had my eyes on.


That sounds like a compliment. But it must cut deep.

After being complicit in a buying spree, Mr. Hornet heading back to his thread...


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Anyone know if a sub bracelet fits a halios Seaforth? 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

WeirdGuy said:


> Ok, just added the third NTH. Nacken Modern Black w/date from WatchGauge. Thankfully I was able to scoop up the last one they had. Hornet99's pic above, sold me. It's the other one I had my eyes on.


Don't forget I'm just one of Doc's celebrity shills..........b-)


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

3WR said:


> That sounds like a compliment. But it must cut deep.
> 
> After being complicit in a buying spree, Mr. Hornet heading back to his thread...
> 
> View attachment 14769711


I didn't buy a watch and he's not one of the WPAC members, so my conscience is clear.......


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Undone's Cali vintage is something of a poor man's/missed the boat Nazario. It's _substantially_ thicker than the NTH, and you're not getting the finishing quality, or the 9015, or the sapphire, and it's only 10ATM, but uh...it has a similar dial at least?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Undone's Cali vintage is something of a poor man's/missed the boat Nazario. It's _substantially_ thicker than the NTH, and you're not getting the finishing quality, or the 9015, or the sapphire, and it's only 10ATM, but uh...it has a similar dial at least?
> 
> View attachment 14770415


It's a cross between the original Nazario and the v.1 Oberon.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

ryan850 said:


> Anyone know if a sub bracelet fits a halios Seaforth?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Should, and Ginault bracelet fits both to my knowledge to buy default an NTH Sub bracelet should as well....


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

ryan850 said:


> Anyone know if a sub bracelet fits a halios Seaforth?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Send me your Seaforth and I'll check...?


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Send me your Seaforth and I'll check...?


I'll let you know when mine arrives (shh don't tell hornet) . I just thought I'd ask while waiting.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

ryan850 said:


> I'll let you know when mine arrives (shh don't tell hornet) . I just thought I'd ask while waiting.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk












Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MaxIcon said:


> That would also give you the option of the Omega quick-adjust clasp, by adding the appropriate clasp and links to a Speedy bracelet. Of course, at that point, the bracelet and extras would cost more than the watch, but it wouldn't be the first time I've done that.
> 
> If I find a little free time this weekend, I'll give it a try.
> 
> ...


So, I pulled out my Uncle Seiko Speedy BOR to compare with the NTH BOR, and there's no comparison - not unexpected, given the cost difference. The US links are stiffer, the end links are hollow, and the clasp is not as nice. Aesthetically, the US beads are longer, and I prefer the shorter beads of the NTH, but YMMV.

It seems to me that the real value here is putting the NTH BOR on the Speedy, as shown in the Chris Ford video, if the end link fit is nice. It's easily good enough quality to match up with the Speedy at a much lower price than any official Omega bracelet (not that Omega offers a BOR for the Speedy).

I just bought a Nazario Ghost on ebay (didn't realize more were coming), so between that and my Speedy, I may need a couple more NTH BORs. 
How's the stock holding up?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MaxIcon said:


> I may need a couple more NTH BORs.
> How's the stock holding up?


Mmmmmmmokay.

For now.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Stuff...

Scorpene Nomad & Dolphin Ice - should go on sale next Friday, 17 Jan, unless something unexpected happens.

Bahia, Carolinas, and Nazario Sauros - still waiting to receive them, so we can do our QC. I've been told we'll have them within the next week or two, so we'll see. Hopefully we can have the Carolinas and Nazarios ready to ship before the end of the month, but I'm thinking we'll hold onto the Bahias, and throw them in with the next release, in Feb-Mar-April.

Fewer than 7 pieces per Subs version left worldwide, on average. Most of them are low single-digits. With just two exceptions (Tikuna and Nacken Modern Blue), nothing we've made in the past 13 months will be available again for at least 6 months, if then.

Watch for a big announcement next week...


----------



## panrev (Jan 10, 2020)

Will the Nacken modern black be available again?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

panrev said:


> Will the Nacken modern black be available again?


Good news - it's available now, a total of 6 new pieces left for sale, globally - 3 dates, and 3 no-dates....

There's one with-date at Watch Gauge, but John's holding it for someone, pending payment. Email John and ask to be on deck in case that guy doesn't pay for it.

There's one with-date on its way to Serious Watches in the Netherlands. It'll be there and available for purchase mid-next-week. Email them and ask if you can buy it.

There's one no-date at the WatchDrobe in Hong Kong, available now. Go buy it.

There's one with-date at 545 Watches in New Zealand, available now. Go buy it.

There are two no-dates at IntoWatch in South Korea, available now. Go buy one of them.

I have no plans to make more of them for at least 6 months.

Like I said guys, fewer than 7 pieces left, on average, spread out around the world. If you want one, get it before it's gone, because anything that's still available now won't be available again for at least 6 months (except for the Tikuna and Nacken Modern Blue).


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Scorpene Nomad... - should go on sale next Friday, 17 Jan, unless something unexpected happens.[/QUOTE]

Yay!



docvail said:


> Watch for a big announcement next week...


Hmm... "big" announcement? Like XL big...?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Hmm... "big" announcement? Like XL big...?


Big, but that's not it.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



MaxIcon said:


> So, I pulled out my Uncle Seiko Speedy BOR to compare with the NTH BOR, and there's no comparison - not unexpected, given the cost difference. The US links are stiffer, the end links are hollow, and the clasp is not as nice. Aesthetically, the US beads are longer, and I prefer the shorter beads of the NTH, but YMMV.
> 
> It seems to me that the real value here is putting the NTH BOR on the Speedy, as shown in the Chris Ford video, if the end link fit is nice. It's easily good enough quality to match up with the Speedy at a much lower price than any official Omega bracelet (not that Omega offers a BOR for the Speedy).
> 
> ...


And people say the watches are over-priced, because they can get a watch with the same specs and components from another brand for less.

We're working with the best vendors, we pay for top quality. Yeah, you can get a watch with a Miyota 9xxx and/or a BOR bracelet for less. That doesn't make them "the same".

If anything, we're not charging enough.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> And people say the watches are over-priced, because they can get a watch with the same specs and components from another brand for less.
> 
> We're working with the best vendors, we pay for top quality. Yeah, you can get a watch with a Miyota 9xxx and/or a BOR bracelet for less. That doesn't make them "the same".
> 
> If anything, we're not charging enough.


I think you should raise your prices.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

/\
|
Dislike.

I might pay more. Would rather not. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Hornet99 said:


> I didn't buy a watch and he's not one of the WPAC members, so my conscience is clear.......


Fair enough.

Unrelated... What if a WPAC'er buys a watch from another WPAC'er? Is the buyer a sinner or a savior? Selfish (duh, broke the covenant and bought another watch) or self-less (took on the burden of another so that they might be at peace with their collection)?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Undone's Cali vintage is something of a poor man's/missed the boat Nazario. It's _substantially_ thicker than the NTH, and you're not getting the finishing quality, or the 9015, or the sapphire, and it's only 10ATM, but uh...it has a similar dial at least?
> 
> View attachment 14770415


I dig that photo. Suspect it may be reverse of NTH. I'd like it much less in person.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

3WR said:


> Hornet99 said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't buy a watch and he's not one of the WPAC members, so my conscience is clear.......
> ...


Buyer and seller are both sinner. Buyer didn't abstain. Seller enabled. Its not like there wouldn't be someone else to buy the watch....


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

3WR said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Unrelated... What if a WPAC'er buys a watch from another WPAC'er? Is the buyer a sinner or a savior? Selfish (duh, broke the covenant and bought another watch) or self-less (took on the burden of another so that they might be at peace with their collection)?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Both get to spend a month (separately obviously....) in the official WPAC chair of contemplation.......









Sent from my SM-T560 using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Daughters horse riding lessons, cold and bored......










Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

A shot from yesterday









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Not many watches would get my Amphion Dark Gilt away from me, but a Tikuna might....


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Undone's Cali vintage is something of a poor man's/missed the boat Nazario. It's _substantially_ thicker than the NTH, and you're not getting the finishing quality, or the 9015, or the sapphire, and it's only 10ATM, but uh...it has a similar dial at least?
> 
> View attachment 14770415





3WR said:


> I dig that photo. Suspect it may be reverse of NTH. I'd like it much less in person.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Whoa! I need to walk that back. On my phone, I liked the photo. Seeing it now larger on laptop makes it look kind of plasticky. Probably unfair to judge from photos, but that's all I'll have to go on.

Got curious and checked out their site. I'm not hip enough to understand some of their collaborations. I thought these dudes were the Charmin deuce dropping bears.

















This one has an F-bomb written on the dial. No thanks. But if that 7 o'clock index is a symbolic one, then that's kind of clever.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

MikeyT said:


> Not many watches would get my Amphion Dark Gilt away from me, but a Tikuna might....


Luckily, and inexplicably, it sounds like Tikuna stock isn't as desperately low as other models. I could scratch two NTH itches by ordering up a pair of them with one drop shipping to you.

When I was first getting interested in NTH, there were at least a pair of (if not 3) used Amphions for sale. Made it appears as if they would be easier to find than they really are.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Funnily enough I just pulled the trigger on a Tikuna about an hour ago... it is odd the stock for these isn't lower, they're gorgeous. I decided to get a "beads of poop" bracelet as well, before the Omega fanboys snatch em up.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Carolina and beads of poop.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

3WR, I PM'd you.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Tikuna... Where do I start? I always look at the Tikuna and say to myself "that's the next NTH for me", and then I see one I want more. But here's the thing, I REALLY like the Tikuna, and it WILL be my next NTH, unless the Nacken Vintage comes out before it. But either way, those two are on my list to buy next.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

I guess you're referring to the Vintage Black? Because WG has both the white and the blue in stock.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Finally I have an NTH that I can read the date on. *Don't know why Doc couldn't help us out on this one. All the great watches have easily readable dates. He really needs to get his stuff together if he wants to be a respected brand.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk
*Chris, I am KIDDING!!! I love your watches, but have been having fun placing Cyclops where they don't belong.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

Cyclops FTW!
I’m a no-date guy, but I kinda like Cyclops.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> Finally I have an NTH that I can read the date on. *Don't know why Doc couldn't help us out on this one. All the great watches have easily readable dates. He really needs to get his stuff together if he wants to be a respected brand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gotta love a good cyclops. Would be better with 2.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Snagged one last month from f29



On the list for a gilt Amphion next batch, my 5th (vintage, vintage blue, modern, commando)


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> Finally I have an NTH that I can read the date on. *Don't know why Doc couldn't help us out on this one. All the great watches have easily readable dates. He really needs to get his stuff together if he wants to be a respected brand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a nice idea. Adding a little groin bulge to the watch dial.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

TheBearded said:


> I guess you're referring to the Vintage Black? Because WG has both the white and the blue in stock.


Yes, the black. I forgot to put that, but was thinking it as I typed. Brain fart. The new Nacken Vintage Black will have a Titanium Gray bezel insert, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

wtma said:


> Cyclops FTW!
> I'm a no-date guy, but I kinda like Cyclops.


Noooo. The cyclops always looks terrible, both as a bubble on the glass, or under it. I'd never purposefully buy a watch with a cyclops on it, but since my SKX is under the knife right now, I'm using my Jade Monster as my beater watch until the SKX is done, and then I can harvest the dial and movement from the Monster for another Seiko mod project. This is how a watch with a cyclops looks at a glance, which is how I check my watches. I almost never look directly at them (unless I'm admiring them), just a quick glance to check the time. What's the date? I don't know, because the cyclops is covering it up. It completely fails at the one job it's supposed to do. If you can't read an unmagnified date, buy a big-date watch.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

yankeexpress said:


>


So nice. Thanks for sharing. I thought I heard that color combo was going to be new though. Guess not.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Dub Rubb said:


> Finally I have an NTH that I can read the date on. *Don't know why Doc couldn't help us out on this one. All the great watches have easily readable dates. He really needs to get his stuff together if he wants to be a respected brand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ryan850 said:


> Gotta love a good cyclops. Would be better with 2.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Gotta wonder if the guy who invented the monocle did a forehead slap when the other guy invented glasses.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> That's a nice idea. Adding a little groin bulge to the watch dial.
> 
> View attachment 14775577


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Yes, the black. I forgot to put that, but was thinking it as I typed. Brain fart. The new Nacken Vintage Black will have a Titanium Gray bezel insert, if I'm not mistaken.


You're not mistaken.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> So nice. Thanks for sharing. I thought I heard that color combo was going to be new though. Guess not.


The Vintage Black was one of the original 8 designs. I think we made it one more time after that. We're updating it with a "titanium gray" (not actually titanium) bezel insert, and moving the date window from that ~4:33 position to 6.

*FUN FACTOID / TRUE STORY - *

The Vintage Black was Aaron's favorite among all the versions we ginned up prior to launching NTH.

When we settled on our favorite 8 versions, I created a pre-order survey, to try and gauge interest in each version, prior to starting pre-orders, so I'd know about how many of each version to make available at each price tier.

(I was hoping to avoid a situation where we just put 25 of each version up for sale at each price tier, but we blew through 2-3 tiers of the most popular models, while struggling to sell through the 25 pieces in the first tier for the least popular models.)

The Vintage Black got the least votes in that survey (which had well over 1,000 respondents), by a decent-sized margin. With over 1,000 respondents, I thought the survey would be a pretty reliable indicator of each model's success, and so I debated not making it at all. Aaron was completely gutted. I kept it in the plan mostly just to throw Aaron a bone, and keep him happy.

If I'd known then that the Subs would become as popular as they are, with so many different versions, I wouldn't have worried about it. I would have just pressed on without thinking about it so hard. But back then, it was still pretty unprecedented for a microbrand to launch with 15 different versions of its first model (counting date/no-date options).

The Vintage Black wasn't and still isn't the most popular version, but it seems popular enough to bring it back again after it being out of production a while, like the Oberon, and my hope is that people see the changes we've made to those two (and the Amphion) as improvements.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

You know Doc is doing something right when your wife complains about the lume on your NTH Odin being very bright at night.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm. Close the curtains so doc can stop shining the uv torch in your windows every night ...


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> WeirdGuy said:
> 
> 
> > So nice. Thanks for sharing. I thought I heard that color combo was going to be new though. Guess not.
> ...


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> The Vintage Black wasn't and still isn't the most popular version, but it seems popular enough to bring it back again after it being out of production a while, like the Oberon, and my hope is that people see the changes we've made to those two (and the Amphion) as improvements.


Doc,

Are you allowed to disclose which Sub was/is the most popular?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jerseydan31 said:


> Doc,
> 
> Are you allowed to disclose which Sub was/is the most popular?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Allowed?

I own the company. Who's to stop me?

Yes, I could say, if I knew off the top of my head. Without knowing the exact numbers, it's either the Barracuda Vintage Black, or one of the Nacken Moderns, either black or blue.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> Allowed?
> 
> I own the company. Who's to stop me?
> 
> Yes, I could say, if I knew off the top of my head. Without knowing the exact numbers, it's either the Barracuda Vintage Black, or one of the Nacken Moderns, either black or blue.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

First attempt to deliver(*2) was on a Saturday, didn't come to fruition. Difficulty level- having packages delivered to work instead of home.

Repeat attempts on Monday, Jan 13th, the next business day. Mission objective- successful. Contents received- packages. Joy level- high.

By the by, I was excited to get the beads of poop bracelet and the UV torch, I thought about writing here if I could just swing out to KoP and pick them up. But $4 for shipping is way cheaper than the gas I would have burned, so I'd wait patiently as a good normie should. Then, upon receiving notice of where it was actually shipped from, I'd have to pay more in tolls to get home than the shipping costs, so I'm definitely winning, f'in Jersey. It was packaged well, but it didn't come with a sandwich. It was not advertised to have been delivered with such, but it would've been nice. Preferably a reuben (like Famous 4th Street Deli), or a turkey club (no tomatoes), but even a classic PB'n'J would taken this service from a 9.8 to an 11. Maybe next time.

With this purchase (first bid on in 2019 via eBay, closed after the new year), I'm ready to join the WPAC, once home and proper SOTC photos can be taken. The wife wants a new house, and I've been told kids need to be fed and clothed, or something. Time to deactivate watchrecon and ebay alerts. :_ (

P.S. - 
*) Unexpected treat, the way the light catches the hands, the edges. Very mirrored, sharp clean, makes for good eye candy just rolling the wrist to and fro, sparkles. 
2nd: The bezel action is great, only the second watch I have with a movable bezel. This bezel movement is worlds better than the Seiko SARB075 I have, that thing is _monster_ously difficult to move. As-in, nigh impossible when on wrist, and it's anti-climatic to take it off to use the bezel. (DOC, MAKE A COMPASS BEZEL YOU HOSER!)
c- I got this as a gift for someone, but I had to try it on briefly, the person I bought it from has just about the same wrist size I do. Maybe I'd play with taking the half-link out, but I don't notice that much wiggle or play. However, I do notice how convenient it is to have a half-link in the bracelet, a detail many may not appreciate until it comes to sizing in person.

One more reveal to do for the Ghost when the conditions have been satisfied to do so.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WIS noobs be like...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Whoever the Dicktionary is, he's an absolute savage.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

RuggerAl said:


> This bezel movement is worlds better than the Seiko SARB075 I have, that thing is _monster_ously difficult to move. As-in, nigh impossible when on wrist, and it's anti-climatic to take it off to use the bezel. (DOC, MAKE A COMPASS BEZEL YOU HOSER!)


I don't find the Monster bezel tough to use at all. It's vague and indistinct, sure, but the resistance is minimal, and it's certainly easy to grip in the non shrouded areas. Unless the Land Monster is somehow very different in it's bezel action? IMO, the Monster's crown action is WAY worse than its bezel. It doesn't wobble around all over the place like the SKX crown, but it's every bit as annoying trying to pull it out with just enough force to get it to the date set position without pulling it all the way out. For something that lists for $600+, and has an ostensibly "upper-end" Seiko movement in the 6R15, there's really no excuse for it being _that_ bad. Miyota definitely > Seiko in that area.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> I don't find the Monster bezel tough to use at all. It's vague and indistinct, sure, but the resistance is minimal, and it's certainly easy to grip in the non shrouded areas. Unless the Land Monster is somehow very different in it's bezel action? IMO, the Monster's crown action is WAY worse than its bezel. It doesn't wobble around all over the place like the SKX crown, but it's every bit as annoying trying to pull it out with just enough force to get it to the date set position without pulling it all the way out. For something that lists for $600+, and has an ostensibly "upper-end" Seiko movement in the 6R15, there's really no excuse for it being _that_ bad. Miyota definitely > Seiko in that area.


The 6r15 is far, FAR from "upper end", being merely a souped up 7S lowbeat with added hack and handwind. Seiko has no business installing it an any watch over $300.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

Davekaye90 said:


> I don't find the Monster bezel tough to use at all. It's vague and indistinct, sure, but the resistance is minimal, and it's certainly easy to grip in the non shrouded areas. Unless the Land Monster is somehow very different in it's bezel action? IMO, the Monster's crown action is WAY worse than its bezel. It doesn't wobble around all over the place like the SKX crown, but it's every bit as annoying trying to pull it out with just enough force to get it to the date set position without pulling it all the way out. For something that lists for $600+, and has an ostensibly "upper-end" Seiko movement in the 6R15, there's really no excuse for it being _that_ bad. Miyota definitely > Seiko in that area.


The bezel on mine is bi-directional, has no clicks. Maybe that makes a difference. Do you you have a Trek Monster, or more apt, have a uni-directional bezel? The ease has come and gone on moving the bezel. I'm unsure if there's lint or something jamming the action, or if it's not worn enough and whatever grease is used to lube the action is cold and stiff, but yeah, turning it is difficult.


----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)




----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

hmmmm


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Andrjes said:


> View attachment 14780885


Well, now we have the perfect response template for any of docvail's future WoT's


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Whoever the Dicktionary is, he's an absolute savage with a perfect response to WoTs. ;-)


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Stuff...
> 
> Watch for a big announcement next week...


It's next week.

Just sayin'...


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

Check your email if you signed up for them through watch guage.



Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> It's next week.
> 
> Just sayin'...





Rice and Gravy said:


> Check your email if you signed up for them through watch guage.


I must be psychic...

From John at Watch Guage:

I had a chance chat with Chris "Doc" Vail from NTH as we discuss some special announcements for 2020!

First are the plans for upcoming NTH Releases:

Current releases!
Scorpene Nomad, Dolphin Ice, Bahia, and the return of the WatchGauge Exclusive Nazario Sauro!
You can check them out here! (Hey, look, new watches!)

Next we introduce the NTH 6 & 6 Guarantee!
NTH gives you up to 6 weeks to return watches for a full refund, net of shipping costs, and guarantees the movement for 6 years from the date of production.
Simple, right? It is!
Learn more


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> I must be psychic...
> 
> From John at Watch Guage:
> 
> ...


6 & 6. That's awesome!

NTH is beginning to move out of the "microbrand" realm and into the next tier (I'd put Steinhart and cward in that group).

Nice job Chris.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just sayin'...


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm. 

There must be some way that that could have been a "666 guarantee". The 3rd '6' could be... at least 6 paragraphs in each of doc's WoT manifestos?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> The 3rd '6' could be... at least 6 paragraphs in each of doc's WoT manifestos?


*guaranteed...


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

Hmm, the original batches were all released in 2016, two years left. The Amphion Vintage I just acquired might fail within the next year and a half, guaranteed.

But on a non-serious note, it's very cool that the new assurance includes those original purchases instead of a "haha, not for you" for those original/first customers.

*Also disappointed there was a lacking third 6.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> Hmm, the original batches were all released in 2016, two years left. The Amphion Vintage I just acquired might fail within the next year and a half, guaranteed.


Considering the 2-year warranty expired 2 years ago, you're better off now than you were yesterday.



RuggerAl said:


> But on a non-serious note, it's very cool that the new assurance includes those original purchases instead of a "haha, not for you" for those original/first customers.


What can I say? I'm a very cool guy.



RuggerAl said:


> *Also disappointed there was a lacking third 6.


I'll tolerate these third 6 jokes for another 6 hours. After that, I'll cease to find them even remotely humorous...


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

docvail said:


> Considering the 2-year warranty expired 2 years ago, you're better off now than you were yesterday.
> 
> What can I say? I'm a very cool guy.
> 
> I'll tolerate these third 6 jokes for another 6 hours. After that, I'll cease to find them even remotely humorous...


These guys all have a 6 sense of humor.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

RuggerAl said:


> Hmm, the original batches were all released in 2016, two years left. The Amphion Vintage I just acquired might fail within the next year and a half, guaranteed.
> 
> But on a non-serious note, it's very cool that the new assurance includes those original purchases instead of a "haha, not for you" for those original/first customers.
> 
> *Also disappointed there was a lacking third 6.


What!!!??? The 6 year movement guarantee covers previously purchased NTH subs?! Seriously? If so that's frickin' excellent.........


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Not only that, but for those who bought watches with Swiss movements, they are getting fair warning about getting them serviced if they want warranty coverage... if they care to notice...


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> I'll tolerate these third 6 jokes for another 6 hours. After that, I'll cease to find them even remotely humorous...


We know you've been around, here there and back again style. Just tell us, are you a traveling enthusiast whom laments the disrepair and seldom used traditional US highway system, Route 66 in particular, or are you a bewildering Josh Ho-Sang supporter, or worse, a despicable Mario Lemiux fanboi?

<checks watch, within 6 hour window. T-5hr and counting.>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> What!!!??? The 6 year movement guarantee covers previously purchased NTH subs?! Seriously? If so that's frickin' excellent.........


Frickin' excellent, it is.

Y'all feel free to tell your friends. Just like Nigel Tuffnel's amps go to 11, the NTH guarantee goes to 6...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> We know you've been around, here there and back again style. Just tell us, are you a traveling enthusiast whom laments the disrepair and seldom used traditional US highway system, Route 66 in particular, or are you a bewildering Josh Ho-Sang supporter, or worse, a despicable Mario Lemiux fanboi?
> 
> <checks watch, within 6 hour window. T-5hr and counting.>


I criss-crossed the country twice, once on I-10, then back by I-70.

My wife and my dog both got sick on the same day, heading west out of El Paso. She got food poisoning, and he must have eaten something that didn't sit well, either. Every time he passed gas, I had to pull over so she could vomit. Didn't get to the Grand Canyon until well past sundown, and overslept the next morning, so we missed the sunrise. We literally - not figuratively - spent just 5 minutes looking at it before getting back into the car to head for LA.

Fun times.

Never been on Route 66, but I've been on both Route 1's, the East-Coast version (Philadelphia to DC), and Highway 1 in California, aka the Pacific Coast Highway. My wife almost vomited on that one, too. Note to anyone whose wife is prone to car-sickness, don't travel south on PCH, only travel north. Going south, the view out the passenger side window is straight down, 300 feet, to a rocky death. No bueno.

As for the disrepair - Pennsylvania is where well-tuned auto-suspensions get sent to die. Every road is a top contender in a Robert Davi look-alike contest.

As for Josh Hubba-Stank and Mario Luigi, no idea who either of those guys are, honestly.

Sorry, Robert, but you know your face is like a Drake's coffee-cake...


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

Two guys who play ice hockey, one a Hall of Famer, the other a talented minor leaguer.

PA has the worse roads, it is so sad, PennDOT is either the best no-show paying job, or a front for the mob. (Seeing any non-Bentley* exotic car in Philly makes less than zero sense, unless at auto show brought in by car transporter, or in a museum (Simeone Foundation Automotive Museum)).
*_"sufficient"_ ground clearance

P.S.- Will you ever go back to making Huey & Luey watches, or has NTH just stolen the first brand's lunch money? Just curious.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> Will you ever go back to making Huey & Luey watches? Just curious.


I dunno. Never say never, but no current/near-term plans.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> I criss-crossed the country twice, once on I-10, then back by I-70.
> 
> My wife and my dog both got sick on the same day, heading west out of El Paso. She got food poisoning, and he must have eaten something that didn't sit well, either. Every time he passed gas, I had to pull over so she could vomit. Didn't get to the Grand Canyon until well past sundown, and overslept the next morning, so we missed the sunrise. We literally - not figuratively - spent just 5 minutes looking at it before getting back into the car to head for LA.
> 
> ...


That's a real pitty....

Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ Oh, that's just terrible. Worst pun ever.

And Doc, that guarantee is really epic. I didn't realize you grandfather'd in older watches. That is really, really cool.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

RuggerAl said:


> The bezel on mine is bi-directional, has no clicks. Maybe that makes a difference. Do you you have a Trek Monster, or more apt, have a uni-directional bezel? The ease has come and gone on moving the bezel. I'm unsure if there's lint or something jamming the action, or if it's not worn enough and whatever grease is used to lube the action is cold and stiff, but yeah, turning it is difficult.


I guess that could be it. I have the jade monster with the usual diver style bezel. I barely wear it, but that's made no difference AFAICT with the action.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Frickin' excellent, it is.
> 
> Y'all feel free to tell your friends. Just like Nigel Tuffnel's amps go to 11, the NTH guarantee goes to 6...


Out of curiousity, is this THE longest warranty on a movement, like from anyone? Either way, seems like a testament to how awesome the Miyota is.

Now if They could just mute that rotor noise. It's actually easily done, but I don't remember how. Brightling007 has quieted several for the BSH brothers. Not nitpicking per se, but maybe something to look into doc. I had heard the complaints and it still doesn't bother me much, but I will say that out of 40 or so autos, the only ones I've heard the rotor free spinning on was the miyotas.

I just turn the volume up to 11 and enjoy my 6 years of worry freedom, but just something to think about.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

afaik richemont group is starting an 8-year guarantee.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

NTH 6 & 6 Guarantee - this is truly a very significant value up-kick for owners of NTH watches and deeply cements the quality proposition on offer. In one fell swoop, the overarching percieved Swiss/best-quality argument evaporates........

Also, this guarantee further enhances the delighted owner quotient of that NTH watch that you are wearing, taking it light years away from the massed hordes of Me-Too microbrand offerings climbing over each other in the bang-for-buck, bottom-feeding, we can do it for $200 space. In the long run, quality will always out.......

Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> As for the disrepair - Pennsylvania is where well-tuned auto-suspensions get sent to die. Every road is a top contender in a Robert Davi look-alike contest.


I can certainly attest to that as a former Pennsylvanian. I think they used I-76 to design the suspension for the moon buggy. Some parts of east Portland are pretty crap, but for the most part OR roads are good, just loud because of the grooved concrete they use.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Dub Rubb said:


> Out of curiousity, is this THE longest warranty on a movement, like from anyone? Either way, seems like a testament to how awesome the Miyota is.
> 
> Now if They could just mute that rotor noise. It's actually easily done, but I don't remember how. Brightling007 has quieted several for the BSH brothers. Not nitpicking per se, but maybe something to look into doc. I had heard the complaints and it still doesn't bother me much, but I will say that out of 40 or so autos, the only ones I've heard the rotor free spinning on was the miyotas.
> 
> ...


At the very least it's one of the longest. Chris Ward has their 60/60 - 60 day returns and 60 months warranty, or 5 years. Rolex upped theirs to 5 in 2015, and Omega followed suit in 2018. More than 5 is quite nice to have, and it may be the most generous at the price. It's not the longest on the market, though, as someone already mentioned, several of the Richemont brands - Cartier, JLC, Panerai, etc have gone to 8 years.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Interesting NE-88 based autochrono from a micro brand I've never heard of. I'm curious how this will play out for them. Farer has proven they can play in this space, but they also took quite awhile to establish themselves first, and they use Swiss chrono movements. You really don't see the NE-88 much at all.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> Interesting NE-88 based autochrono from a micro brand I've never heard of. I'm curious how this will play out for them. Farer has proven they can play in this space, but they also took quite awhile to establish themselves first, and they use Swiss chrono movements. You really don't see the NE-88 much at all.
> 
> View attachment 14783173


Im not into chronograph watches, all the sub-dials just clutter up the dial and i never got what you're to do with them anyway, however, i will say that this overall design is quite nicely done aesthetically. I admire a good design and will give credit where its due.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> I dunno. Never say never, but no current/near-term plans.


Is your new warranty transferable?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> Out of curiousity, is this THE longest warranty on a movement, like from anyone? Either way, seems like a testament to how awesome the Miyota is.
> 
> Now if They could just mute that rotor noise. It's actually easily done, but I don't remember how. Brightling007 has quieted several for the BSH brothers. Not nitpicking per se, but maybe something to look into doc. I had heard the complaints and it still doesn't bother me much, but I will say that out of 40 or so autos, the only ones I've heard the rotor free spinning on was the miyotas.
> 
> ...


Adding lubrication to the rotor will quiet it down a bit, but it also slows it down. What you gain in noise dampening and lower wear and tear, you lose in winding efficiency.

These videos were shot by a watchmaker I was working with a few years back:











We're not going to start monkeying with the movements in that way. There's no real "spec" for rotor noise, nothing that we can measure against, so there's no way to determine which ones we'd lubricate, and which ones we wouldn't.

Plus, for all the people who complain about it, I still believe that it's a very small minority who even hear it. I've QC'd at least 2,000-3,000, and never noticed any which seemed louder than any other.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> afaik richemont group is starting an 8-year guarantee.


Interesting. I honestly didn't know about it.

https://www.revolution.watch/panerai-announces-industry-leading-eight-year-guarantee-on-all-watches/

"Panerai has unveiled a new after-sales service called Pam.Guard, which offers an eight-year guarantee on all its watches. Pam.Guard offers an extension of the international limited warranty up to eight years on all wristwatches. Panerai is the fourth brand in the Richemont stable to offer an eight-year warranty after Jaeger-LeCoultre, Cartier and IWC.

"The new programme goes live from Tuesday 26th November 2019, and applies not only to new watches. Any watch bought from a registered Panerai dealer up to two years before that date can be enrolled onto the care programme and offered the extended warranty..."

Nice of them to make the program available to people who bought watches as far back as 26 November 2017.

Unfortunately, there seems to be some fine-print people need to read.

First, it doesn't appear to be automatically in force. The owners of those watches need to apply for the extended, six-year limited warranty. It's unclear if there's any cost to the program, or why someone might not be accepted. It would be interesting to know more about the application process, and costs to the program.

Second, read this:

https://www.panerai.com/us/en/servi...international-limited-warranty-extension.html

"In order to participate in the Panerai Pam.Guard program which notably, includes *the opportunity to apply for a Warranty Extension*, you must follow the registration process on services.panerai.com, and opt-in to allow Panerai to use your personal information to receive communications from Panerai about products or services, including marketing information, regardless of whether your application for a Warranty Extension is approved. We may send you marketing information using e-mail, text, telephone or post. We may also use your personal information to deliver personalized messages or advertising on social media or other digital platforms...

"...Your participation in the Panerai Pam.Guard program, your entitlement to any of its benefits, including without limitation any Warranty Extension, may be denied by Panerai at its sole discretion for any reason...

"...Panerai may cancel your participation in the Panerai Pam.Guard program and/or the Warranty Extension for the same reasons that would entitle it to a denial, and for other reasons in its sole discretion, at any time and without notice....

"...The Panerai Pam.Guard program is limited to individuals only and to one account per individual. Your participation in the Panerai Pam.Guard program may not be sold, transferred or assigned to, or shared with, anyone else. ...

"...Panerai reserves the right to modify or restrict any aspect of the Panerai Pam.Guard program (including its services and/or benefits) without notice..."

Just for the record:

1. The NTH 6 & 6 guarantee is back-dated to 2016.

2. It's automatic.

3. We don't require any more information than we already have from anyone, or require opt-in to our digital marketing.

4. The only reasons for denial of service are those we've stated - opening the watch during the warranty period, or not having the Swiss movements serviced.

EDIT - 5 - It's transferable from one owner of an NTH to the next owner, automatically, no communication needed.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double post.

Random pic.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Interesting NE-88 based autochrono from a micro brand I've never heard of. I'm curious how this will play out for them. Farer has proven they can play in this space, but they also took quite awhile to establish themselves first, and they use Swiss chrono movements. You really don't see the NE-88 much at all.
> 
> View attachment 14783173





Rhorya said:


> Im not into chronograph watches, all the sub-dials just clutter up the dial and i never got what you're to do with them anyway, however, i will say that this overall design is quite nicely done aesthetically. I admire a good design and will give credit where its due.


I used to love chronos. I still find them interesting to look at, but most are way too thick to be very wearable (for me, YMMV). The Soldat is 42mm x 50mm x 14mm, which I think is precisely what the Riccardo was.

I like the looks of the Soldat, generally. There's nothing "wrong" with it, but there's also nothing overly distinctive about it, as compared to the chronos from Farer, Oak & Oscar, or Straton. My only quibbles are that the WR is a little light (but not egregious) at 5 ATM, and the date wheel color vs the dial color, but it is what it is.

The price seems right, if not a little better than fair, knowing what the NE88 costs to purchase whole, and it seems that the watch was "designed in Switzerland, but manufactured in Japan". If it truly was "manufactured" in Japan, that's a nice to have, I guess, but it no doubt adds to the cost.

Re - Farer - my understanding is the brand's founders came from TJ Maxx UK. It seems like the brand was launched with watches selling at higher-than-most-micros prices, and with a well-developed retail network. It seemed to me that Farer set a land-speed record for being accepted as a player at those higher price points.

Re - the NE88 vs Swiss chronos - all other things being equal, I'd take an NE88 over any new Swiss chrono, all day long.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> Is your new warranty transferable?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Our warranties have always been transferable from one owner to the next.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Interesting. I honestly didn't know about it.
> 
> https://www.revolution.watch/panerai-announces-industry-leading-eight-year-guarantee-on-all-watches/
> 
> ...


Read that last part, slowly.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Our warranties have always been transferable from one owner to the next.


OK Ty

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Received my Azzurro yesterday. Took the bracelet off and put it on this dark blue Scurfa rubber. This watch looks so damn good in person. Thanks again to John over at WatchGauge. Super nice guy, always, and just makes everything easy. Will definitely be purchasing from him again.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Read that last part, slowly.


Read it as slowly as you want, smartass. It's not contradictory.

There's no reason to open one of the watches during the 2-year *warranty* period.

Don't confuse the warranty with the guarantee.

It may sound like semantic hair-splitting, but I'm using "warranty" to refer to the 2 year period during which we will repair/replace any part of the watch which fails, and "guarantee" to refer to the 6 year period during which we'll ensure the movement runs as expected.

We require proof of *servicing* on the Swiss movements, just once within the 6 year guarantee (and we're recommending it be done no later than 5 years).

Of course that requires opening the case, but it shouldn't need to be done during the first 2 years (the warranty period), and it should be assumed that the proof of servicing comes from someone who is a legitimate / professional watchmaker, certified to do the work, not some ham-fisted amateur playing home-watch repair.

If we find that someone who isn't a trained watchmaker opened the watch, monkeyed about with the movement, and damaged it in some way, of course we don't want to be responsible for fixing that, and it would thus void the warranty.

Let's not get into a debate about the fine-print or fairness of it all. I've been entirely consistent about this, always. The only people who would be bothered by these terms are EXACTLY the people who'd expect us to fix their boneheaded mistake.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*True Story - *

Someone once contacted us to report that their STP movement "suddenly" stopped hacking. Very strange. We'd never heard of that happening before. We told him to send it back to us.

Watchmaker Dan gets the watch, and finds that the hacking lever was missing.

Uhm...there's ZERO chance that would go unnoticed through multiple rounds of QC, and would take the watch owner months to notice and report to us as the hacking "suddenly" stopped.

What happened?

The doofus opened his watch, started disassembling the movement, removed some group of parts, and the hacking lever came with them, stuck to the bottom, but must have fallen away, unnoticed by the doofus, who then re-assembled the movement without it.

Instead of admitting what he did, he tried to pull a fast one on us.

I told Dan to close it up and send it back to the doofus, warranty voided.

Play stupid games. Win stupid prizes.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> *True Story - *
> 
> Someone once contacted us to report that their STP movement stopped hacking. Very strange. We'd never heard of that happening before. We told him to send it back to us.
> 
> ...


I like your attitude. This is how business should be run. People can be total idiots.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> *True Story - *
> 
> Someone once contacted us to report that their STP movement stopped hacking. Very strange. We'd never heard of that happening before. We told him to send it back to us.
> 
> ...


I like your attitude. This is how business should be run. People can be total idiots.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> I like your attitude. This is how business should be run. People can be total idiots.





WeirdGuy said:


> I like your attitude. This is how business should be run. People can be total idiots.


Thanks for the double-post. I wanted to like your comment twice, and that gave me the opportunity.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Our warranties have always been transferable from one owner to the next.


How many goats does the old owner need to sacrifice to transfer the warranty?


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> Thanks for the double-post. I wanted to like your comment twice, and that gave me the opportunity.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


HA! I didnt even realize it had double-posted my comment. Sneaky WUS.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Stupid games abound. Just in the last two days...

1. There's a complete loon, who's been pestering me to trade free product in exchange for his dubious-value "photography and design services" going back to 2014. I keep blowing him off (politely). But then he won a watch we gave away at District Time in October.

You'd think a guy who'd been trying to score a free watch out of me would consider that a victory, and be satisfied enough to leave me alone, but you'd be wrong...

First he approaches me at the event, once again pitching his services, which I assume would now be paid for with cash, since he just won a watch. I told him I'd let him know if I was interested.

Then he starts DM'ing me via Instagram, asking to trade the watch for a different one. I told him no, and after he refused to understand, I blocked him.

Then, he contacts us through the website, claiming that Washingtonian Magazine (which he does not work for) wants a BOR bracelet to go with the watch.

Conveniently, that was the magazine which helped promote the event. No coincidence he claimed it was they who wanted the bracelet, implying that he was doing some sort of pictorial feature for them.

I knew it was BS, so I asked him to have someone from the magazine contact me directly with the request. At that point, he got $hltty with me, which so often happens, when I refuse to provide free swag to every $hltheel who asks.

2. Yesterday a guy contacted us to complain about one or more screws backing out of his bracelet, and demanding we provide several replacement screws, despite losing none of his.

We explained that the screws need thread locker to stay in place once the bracelet is sized. And by the way, there are two extra screws with the spare links, included with the watch.

He responded to say that info should be included with the watch. We explained that people tend not to read the info we provide, no matter how we try to convey it, but it was something most enthusiasts seem to be aware of, and our customers tend to be enthusiasts.

Today he responds (incensed), to say his watch is now damaged, from falling to the floor, despite his following our advice, by applying thread locker to the screws. He is expecting us to provide a better resolution, invoking his 30 years of collecting, and the names Rolex, Omega, and Tag Heuer.

How does a guy with 30 years of collecting experience not know how bracelet screws work? Anyone? Anyone?

I sent him a link to the results of an internet search on the topic of loose bracelet screws. Said results include many discussions about it, including needing to to use thread locker on bracelets from Rolex, Omega, and Tag.

I also pointed out the card included with each watch states that all operating instructions are on our website, where, you guessed it, it clearly states that thread-locker needs to be applied to the bracelet screws.

Lastly, I explained that we have no way of knowing if case damage occurred due to a bracelet screw backing out, or some Sasquatch banging his watch into a door jamb on his way through, so we can't and don't warranty against external damage which occurs after delivery, regardless of the cause.

Not wanting to take too hard-line a stance, I offered to replace his case, at a discount to what we'd typically charge for parts and labor.

Still waiting on his reply. I'm not expecting it to be overly appreciative of what I consider a very fair offer in this unfortunate situation.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Doc, I like these story times. I can never understand the entitlement some people feel they have/deserve. Sickening, really.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Doc, I like these story times. I can never understand the entitlement some people feel they have/deserve. Sickening, really.


I can't either, but then, apparently I'm a hard-a$$.


----------



## Tjcdas (Mar 12, 2018)

NTH has hired Red Forman as the customer service manager for the new NTH SIX/SIX Raising the Bar Guarantee.

He has made a company training video on how to deal with customers requesting to use the SIX/SIX guarantee.

The word on the street is that the owner of NTH is not happy that Red seems to be treating the customers with to much love and kindness. :-d


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tjcdas said:


> NTH has hired Red Forman as the customer service manager for the new NTH SIX/SIX Raising the Bar Guarantee.
> 
> He has made a company training video on how to deal with customers requesting to use the SIX/SIX guarantee.
> 
> The word on the street is that the owner of NTH is not happy that Red seems to be treating the customers with to much love and kindness. :-d


So...you've made it clear, with your posts in this and other threads, that you don't like the cut of my jib.

I get it. My jib. You don't like its cut.

I've been ignoring you, but since you're still chiming in, I take it you've been hoping for some sort of response from me.

If you were hoping I'd unload on you, sorry to disappoint. I'm just not feeling the need, or seeing the point.

Best I can do is acknowledge that yes, I see you there, making your snarky remarks, hoping to get others to join you in thinking I'm some sort of jerk.

Whatever it is weighing you down, I hope it gets lifted, and you can move on, and find happiness in life.

Maybe get a puppy or something.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

docvail said:


> Read it as slowly as you want, smartass. It's not contradictory.
> 
> There's no reason to open one of the watches during the 2-year *warranty* period.
> 
> ...


Oh. Now i get the Swiss movement part of the reference my friend. At first i thought it was an oversight reference as you pretty much use the 9015 and that seemed (at least to me) to be the basis of the guarantee. So i was confused as to the Swiss reference there. Now based on the above explanation it appears that if i own a NTH watch with the STP-11 Swiss movement then it falls under the 6 year guarantee provided i have had it properly serviced within that time period.

Maybe just me, but i had interpreted the 6 years on the movement to be only the 9015.

If this now extends to all movements in your watches, I'm suitably impressed. And as an owner of your watches with 9015 and the STP, also appreciative.

Wasn't splitting hairs, but thank you for the additional explanation, it was actually very clarifying.

If i have inadvertently misinterpreted something please let me have it with both barrels in the chest.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I do love it when irony is juicy and delicious...

The first time I can recall encountering Tjcdas was in a review thread someone posted, about their Barracuda.

I was honestly confused about the reviewer's conclusions.

On the one hand, he fairly gushed with praise for the watch, overall, but then he also apparently hated the bracelet - particularly the male end-links - enough to make him question the value of the watch. He really hated those links, and the bracelet, and I think the clasp. He said they were of poor quality, but didn't say why he thought that.

He went on to say that he might like to buy another NTH Sub, but wouldn't do so, because I refused to sell them without the bracelet.

He also mentioned that it seemed to not be running within spec.

I responded by saying that depending on where he was located, he could return the watch either to the retailer, or directly to us, to have the timekeeping checked, and if need be, the watch regulated.

I added that if he wanted to buy another NTH Sub, but didn't want the bracelet, I'd buy the bracelet back from him.

And, since my primary goal is for people to be happy with the watches they buy from NTH, if he wasn't convinced the watch he'd already purchased was good value, I'd buy it back from him, if he'd only name his price, so long as it seemed fair.

Follow all that? I offered to get the watch running within spec, offered to buy back the bracelet on a future purchase, and offered to buy back the watch he already owned, at any price we could agree was fair.

Tjcdas went off:



Tjcdas said:


> Nice customer service!
> 
> At least the OP showed class in his comments!
> 
> I'm sure your comments make more people willing to buy your watches!


So...yeah, I guess somehow, in his worldview, I'm a big jerk.

Here's where the irony comes in, and what makes it so delicious - the guy who posted that review is also an active member of the microbrands group on Facebook, where we've also crossed paths.

Prior to posting his review, he asked me if I'd sell a Sub without the bracelet. I offered my apologies when I explained that they all come with bracelets, we don't sell the watches without them - leading to his mentioning it in his review.

More recently, we exchanged some words regarding the clasp Rusty intended to use on the Atticus watches, which is the same as the one used on the Subs, and which the guy apparently still despises, due to its length and thickness.

I very politely explained that the length is a function of how many micro-adjustment holes the clasp has, and its thickness is a function of the locking mechanism. They're not something we can control or vary, unless we source an entirely different clasp, which may not be equal in quality, or preferable to all customers.

His response was to say I couldn't accept "constructive" criticism, leaving me to wonder how "too long and too thick" could be considered "constructive".

In any case, most recently, he posted about his Barracuda again, and we had the following exchange:























I know, I know, what a total jerk I am, right? Can't understand how anyone could possibly buy anything from me, seeing how shoddy I treat my customers.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> Oh. Now i get the Swiss movement part of the reference my friend. At first i thought it was an oversight reference as you pretty much use the 9015 and that seemed (at least to me) to be the basis of the guarantee. So i was confused as to the Swiss reference there. Now based on the above explanation it appears that if i own a NTH watch with the STP-11 Swiss movement then it falls under the 6 year guarantee provided i have had it properly serviced within that time period.
> 
> Maybe just me, but i had interpreted the 6 years on the movement to be only the 9015.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I thought you were breaking muh balls there, which isn't unusual.

It's six years, on the movement, in every NTH watch ever produced, from the date of manufacture (call it the year, if you like).

You're not the only one who was temporarily confused. Before the video went live and the email blast went out, I gave my retailers a heads-up preview. At least one was confused in the same way, asking about servicing the 9015.

I've been expecting some confusion between the 2 year unlimited warranty and the 6 year movement guarantee, and some degree of trolling from guys trying to portray it as something other than just what it is.

I did my best to make the communication about it all as clear as we could make it, and still allow for the basic protect-the-business-from-idiots-doing-idiocy type stuff.

The point isn't to say that we'll be servicing all your watches in six years. If I thought we'd be getting a lot back, I wouldn't have created the guarantee. That's the real point - customers shouldn't be worried about what might go wrong, and if I have to offer a 6 year movement guarantee to free them from that worry, so be it.

I know we produce quality. I know we rarely have to deal with movement issues. I know we provide great service. And I know our prices are fair. Rather than get dragged downward, into debating specs/components vs price, I'm trying to add value, and peace of mind for my customers is just one component of that value.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I do love it when irony is juicy and delicious...
> 
> The first time I can recall encountering Tjcdas was in a review thread someone posted, about their Barracuda.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure that there aren't many, if any, micro brands (certainly no major brands) that when selling a product would offer to sell it in separate parts. Makes me wonder about whether your "accessibility" changes peoples perspective of how you operate your business. But if they've read any of your post, especially the point blank refusals to discuss female style end links, they'd soon be dissuaded from that perspective....... b-)


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Too many words, not enough pictures!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> I'm pretty sure that there aren't many, if any, micro brands (certainly no major brands) that when selling a product would offer to sell it in separate parts. Makes me wonder about whether you're "accessibility" changes peoples perspective of how you operate your business. But if they've read any of your post, especially the point blank refusals to discuss female style end links, they'd soon be dissuaded from that perspective....... b-)


I've no problem with someone having a preference for something being other than how we do it. I do wish everyone could discriminate between their own personal preferences and what actually constitutes quality.

I have been and remain baffled that someone could decide the value of a watch is questionable, simply because some single aspect of it doesn't conform precisely to their individual tastes.

I'll remain firm in my opinion that anyone who feels compelled to run around the internet smearing a small business owner, anonymously, is a cowardly c**t.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I've no problem with someone having a preference for something being other than how we do it. I do wish everyone could discriminate between their own personal preferences and what actually constitutes quality.
> 
> I have been and remain baffled that someone could decide the value of a watch is questionable, simply because some single aspect of it doesn't conform precisely to their individual tastes.
> 
> ...


I was more thinking that generally companies sell a product and either you buy it or you don't, for reasons of price, don't like the colour, too expensive, etc. If you want a better product you generally end up paying more and eventually you get to the example of Rolls Royce cars; they say that they don't sell cars, they sell bespoke automotive solutions, meaning they'll customise the [email protected] out of the car just how you want it. Expecting semi-bespoke product from a small, affordable, watch micro brand is slightly ridiculous.......

......anyway, enough of your whining Vail, sort me out an NTH bracelet with female end links and a clasp with a divers extension. Oh and whilst you're at it I want a Titanium NTH sub with all of the above, like yesterday you slacker.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Stupid games abound. Just in the last two days...
> 
> 1. There's a complete loon, who's been pestering me to trade free product in exchange for his dubious-value "photography and design services" going back to 2014. I keep blowing him off (politely). But then he won a watch we gave away at District Time in October.
> 
> ...


Act a fool...Get discounted parts. Got it.

So anyway, new topic, rotor noise hit a resonant frequency that caused by sub to shatter into a million pieces.

Rolex! Omega! Tag!

How much of a break can I get on a replacement watch?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Hornet99 said:


> I'm pretty sure that there aren't many, if any, micro brands (certainly no major brands) that when selling a product would offer to sell it in separate parts. Makes me wonder about whether your "accessibility" changes peoples perspective of how you operate your business. But if they've read any of your post, especially the point blank refusals to discuss female style end links, they'd soon be dissuaded from that perspective....... b-)


Glad he didn't say they were gender neutral end links.:roll:


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

The new guarantee is bumming me out. It’s like life insurance. Glad to have it, don’t want to think about what it’s for. 

In my mind, my Seikos and NTHs were going to live forever without service or hassle. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

All this talk of guarantee this, warranty that got me to thinking. It reminds me of a scene from the great modern masterpiece Tommy Boy. In it, without google assistance, the titular character Tommy retorted with these words to a potentially lost sale- (sic)"Ya know why folks put a guarantee on the box? Because that's all they're selling, a guarantee. At Callahan, sell quality products at affordable prices. I can shove my head up a bulls ass to get a good look at a T-Bone steak, but I'd rather just take the butcher's word for it."

So I'm left here wondering, with this sudden unexpected turn, is Doc a bull about to poop all over the place with tasty steaks hidden inside of him, or is he a butcher carving, wheeling and dealing steaks for the masses to appreciate on his word?

Hmmm... ������
Edit- those question marks are supposed to be the chin rubbing thinking yellow bodiless head emojii *3... but this platform (hosting site) didn't like copypasta.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> All this talk of guarantee this, warranty that got me to thinking. It reminds me of a scene from the great modern masterpiece Tommy Boy. In it, without google assistance, the titular character Tommy retorted with these words to a potentially lost sale- (sic)"Ya know why folks put a guarantee on the box? Because that's all they're selling, a guarantee. At Callahan, sell quality products at affordable prices. I can shove my head up a bulls ass to get a good look at a T-Bone steak, but I'd rather just take the butcher's word for it."
> 
> So I'm left here wondering, with this sudden unexpected turn, is Doc a bull about to poop all over the place with tasty steaks hidden inside of him, or is he a butcher carving, wheeling and dealing steaks for the masses to appreciate on his word?
> 
> ...


I don't think that's how that quote went, but I went ahead and gave your post a "like" anyway...






Speaking of Callahan and Tommy Boy, how many of y'all caught this Easter egg in 50 First Dates?










Callahan Institute Brain Injury Clinic, funded out of Sandusky, Ohio, by "TB" Callahan.

Kind of a cool tribute to Chris Farley, after his death.

And Lucy's doctor at the clinic?






Dan Akroyd, who played Zalinsky, in Tommy Boy.


----------



## Cvp33 (May 6, 2017)

First NTH inbound as we speak. Seriously doubt it will be my last.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Cvp33 said:


> First NTH inbound as we speak. Seriously doubt it will be my last.


We have a winner!!


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Would buy a yellow dial version of this....



Which will cut the high used prices this is getting:









Note the yellow date wheel


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Well my first NTH arrived... been nervously anxious all day. 42mm has been what I consider my wrists comfort zone. Is 40mm too small? No. The answer is no. Now my Sauro just needs to get here!


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

TheBearded said:


> Well my first NTH arrived... been nervously anxious all day. 42mm has been what I consider my wrists comfort zone. Is 40mm too small? No. The answer is no. Now my Sauro just needs to get here!


Looks great on the BoP!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Would buy a yellow dial version of this....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bwahahahahahahah!

Brother, I doubt a yellow-dialed NTH Sub would have much, if any impact on the used market prices of the Halios Seaforth. Popeye's chicken sandwich isn't affecting Chick-fil-A.

Whatever magic Jason has, it's powerful stuff. He seems to have the golden touch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Looks great on the BoP!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Everything looks good next to beads of poop.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Rhorya said:


> Im not into chronograph watches, all the sub-dials just clutter up the dial and i never got what you're to do with them anyway, however, i will say that this overall design is quite nicely done aesthetically. I admire a good design and will give credit where its due.


Same, I just thought this piece was interesting for its movement, which is extremely rare to see in the wild. Straton made a couple of vintage inspired chronos using it, but they seem to have switched to using Valjoux movements. Autodromo has their Monoposto automatic using it, and that's all of the ones I know of.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I love that shade of yellow.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Re - Farer - my understanding is the brand's founders came from TJ Maxx UK. It seems like the brand was launched with watches selling at higher-than-most-micros prices, and with a well-developed retail network. It seemed to me that Farer set a land-speed record for being accepted as a player at those higher price points.
> 
> Re - the NE88 vs Swiss chronos - all other things being equal, I'd take an NE88 over any new Swiss chrono, all day long.


Interesting, I didn't know that about them. They've definitely gotten a lot done in the five years or so that they've been around. I think their least impressive watches are their divers. Most of their designs are quite clever and extremely well executed, but the Aqua Compressors have a pretty bland turtle case, and the dials are sort of run of the mill as well. The Antilles with that bronze sunburst dial is much prettier than any of their compressors, IMO.

Totally with you on that. I find it amusing that a $600 Valjoux 7750 based watch will need a $350+ service after not that long, but at least most watchmakers will service them. If you hand them an autochrono with an ETA 2894-2 in it, you may just get back a flat "no."


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Interesting, I didn't know that about them. They've definitely gotten a lot done in the five years or so that they've been around. I think their least impressive watches are their divers. Most of their designs are quite clever and extremely well executed, but the Aqua Compressors have a pretty bland turtle case, and the dials are sort of run of the mill as well. The Antilles with that bronze sunburst dial is much prettier than any of their compressors, IMO.
> 
> Totally with you on that. I find it amusing that a $600 Valjoux 7750 based watch will need a $350+ service after not that long, but at least most watchmakers will service them. If you hand them an autochrono with an ETA 2894-2 in it, you may just get back a flat "no."


That's actually what gives me pause on the NE88.

I'm not at all concerned about letting a Seiko NH35 or Miyota 9015 go without maintenance, right up until it stops keeping time, or just flat out dies. It may take decades for that to happen. If it's sooner, like, now, you can buy a movement and drop it in for $100, give or take.

I'm not as confident thinking or saying that about the NE88. I don't have any reason to think its got any flaws, or won't run as well 40-50 years from now, the same way a lot of un-serviced Pogues from 40-50 years ago run well enough today.

But, just because it's a chrono, which is more complex, and because the movements are expensive, and from what I've seen, you can't just order one from a parts supplier (at least not that I've seen yet), it makes me wonder about getting one serviced.

Notwithstanding Swatch Group/ETA's recent shenanigans with the independent repair channel, I'm fairly sure my local watchmaker could service a 7750, and probably most other Swiss chrono movements, even some vintage ones, like a Lemania.

I have no idea if he could or would service an NE88.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I want a pale lemon yellow like on my Sartego:


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Avo said:


> I want a pale lemon yellow like on my Sartego:
> 
> View attachment 14785783


Since I don't think Doc is going to make a yellow one (right Doc?), check out the yellow Bernhardt Corsair diver for $319. I have the yellow Binnacle Diver and it's great (discontinued).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

Now that I have to bury my dream of having a yellow Sub, can I hope for crosshair on the dial Doc?
Something like this would be really nice...


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

wtma said:


> Now that I have to bury my dream of having a yellow Sub, can I hope for crosshair on the dial Doc?
> Something like this would be really nice...


Long time gone:


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> Since I don't think Doc is going to make a yellow one (right Doc?), check out the yellow Bernhardt Corsair diver for $319. I have the yellow Binnacle Diver and it's great (discontinued).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No current plans.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

wtma said:


> Now that I have to bury my dream of having a yellow Sub, can I hope for crosshair on the dial Doc?
> Something like this would be really nice...


No current plans.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Long time gone:


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14786441


Dang, I had heard that the CGI in Cats was not good, but this is incredible.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Dang, I had heard that the CGI in Cats was not good, but this is incredible.


It's purrfect.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

Random thought, giving props to Doc.

So I'm sure all of us participate in at least one other forum/message board type environment. Here (WUS in general, not this particular thread), or there, you've obviously ran into a troll. Well, over the years I've done research on trolls, most of it coming from Scandinavian countries, what with there being a higher percentage of trolls originating from those locales. Trolls *HATE* sunlight, kills them. The UV light does them in, hyperdrives their metabolism and then, death.

Doc (and by extension Jon from WG) provide us with these awesome little UV torches so we can on demand be enthralled by the lume. Side benefit of great importance, it's an anti-troll device. Granted, the light is small, and it may not be the best protection against a large marauding troll hell-bent on mayhem. But some protection, is better than no protection.

Stay safe, shine bright.

+1 to Nth, +1 to Watch Gauge

P.S. - It took me about an hour to change that bracelet, I am so slow, but no scratches, so it was worth it. (Stubborn bent spring bar in old bracelet didn't want to let go.)


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> It's purrfect.


I had to watch the Cats film as my daughter wanted to see it and wife had booked tickets but decided (wisely) to be ill on that day. Dear lord what the [email protected] was it all about? Can't believe I spent my hard earned pounds on watching that rubbish, two hours of my life I'll never get back........


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Hornet99 said:


> I had to watch the Cats film as my daughter wanted to see it and wife had booked tickets but decided (wisely) to be ill on that day. Dear lord what the [email protected] was it all about? Can't believe I spent my hard earned pounds on watching that rubbish, two hours of my life I'll never get back........


I often sleep through movies I attend with kids. I consider the price of admission as having bought me two hours of undisturbed time in a comfy seat (depending on theater) in a dark environment that is conducive to napping. Sorry, theatre.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

wtma said:


> Now that I have to bury my dream of having a yellow Sub, can I hope for crosshair on the dial Doc?
> Something like this would be really nice...


Maybe a future Atticus. In the mean time, here's a crosshaired micro...










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

If you had bought more watches, you wouldn't have been able to afford the movie ticket. #Winning?


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Maybe a future Atticus. In the mean time, here's a crosshaired micro...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've seen this Orion and I like the design, but it has a date (white disc no less). Would love to see crosshair in the next design iterations of Atticus though.

Currently having my eyes on this Mercer, looks quite nice.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Technically no crosshair, but it's nice to see Glycine finally do _something_ interesting with the Combat Sub after the KMZiZ version, rather than yet another bezel/dial color change. I dig it, particularly the red on black date wheel that's correctly oriented! Nice touch there.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Technically no crosshair, but it's nice to see Glycine finally do _something_ interesting with the Combat Sub after the KMZiZ version, rather than yet another bezel/dial color change. I dig it, particularly the red on black date wheel that's correctly oriented! Nice touch there.
> 
> View attachment 14787965


You'll like the new Oberon II.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> You'll like the new Oberon II.


Most likely. The "1016 but diver" concept usually works for me. If I have a complaint about the Glycine, it's that the markers are maybe a bit big, particularly the 12 o'clock which looks like a NY pizza slice. I think ya'll got the proportions better than they did.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

That Glycine is more interesting than most Glycines. Not sure what Nacken Vintage looks like magnified. But I know this one zoomed in to show the molded in, raised, smooth areas for all of the printing looks a little, I don't know, not nice.

Most interesting is the new branding. OTP. Notice the "Ode to the Past" 
description?

Agree, date window is a unique touch.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> That Glycine is more interesting than most Glycines. Not sure what Nacken Vintage looks like magnified. But I know this one zoomed in to show the molded in, raised, smooth areas for all of the printing looks a little, I don't know, not nice.
> 
> Most interesting is the new branding. OTP. Notice the "Ode to the Past"
> description?
> ...


Nod to History > Ode to the Past

"Don't write when you can talk; don't talk when you can nod your head." - Martin Lomasney


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

docvail said:


> You'll like the new Oberon II.


I am intrigued. Please tell us more. Tell us at least this one doesn't have fauxtina.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Maybe a future Atticus


You work with Chris and Rusty?



wtma said:


> I've seen this Orion and I like the design, but it has a date (white disc no less).


I like your manifesto sir.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> I am intrigued. Please tell us more. Tell us at least this one doesn't have fauxtina.


Gotta be patient.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

wtma said:


> Something like this would be really nice...


That's pretty much the only modern Omega that I actually like ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Boom.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

Avo said:


> wtma said:
> 
> 
> > Something like this would be really nice...
> ...


I think it's the best of the current Omega lineup. Doesn't always look astonishing in photos but it's awesome in-person.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Agent Sands said:


> I think it's the best of the current Omega lineup. Doesn't always look astonishing in photos but it's awesome in-person.


I like this older version better (HWA's pic)...









Said it before, I'll say it again - Omega designs peaked about 5 years ago. They've been screwing the pooch ever since.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> Long time gone:


How I'd love to see that made at nth sub dimensions. Owned the red orthos briefly, but it was just about 2mm too large for me in all directions. Loved the design and the deep red color though.


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

NTHs all week!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Boom.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a cute watch.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> Boom.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It makes sense conceptually (pilot style with dual time bezel).

It makes sense functionally (to me at least, I would use a 12h bezel).

So I really want to like it. But somehow aesthetically it doesn't work for me. Didn't work on the Catalina. Doesn't work on this (for me). Think its the wide bezel style that's just not looking right to me with the 12h layout or something.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

That dial and bezel style would look better if the bezel was brushed steel, not black.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> That dial and bezel style would look better if the bezel was brushed steel, not black.


Maybe, not sure.

Actually, I do like how the 12h looks on the vanguard. So its not the width of the bezel that is bothering me. Has to be something with the combination with the dial that makes the difference here for me then I guess..


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



92gli said:


> You work with Chris and Rusty?
> 
> I like your manifesto sir.


No. They work for me. Sort of. I pay them, at least. Not every two weeks. But more often than I should.

No, wait. Probably more accurate to say they work for a company I deal with. My payments to them go through Watch Gauge.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

docvail said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's the best of the current Omega lineup. Doesn't always look astonishing in photos but it's awesome in-person.
> ...


That doesn't do much for me.

I'm firmly in the "newer is better" camp on this one, Doc. The brushed dial on the new one is stunning (in person, anyway).


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Wimads said:


> How I'd love to see that made at nth sub dimensions. Owned the red orthos briefly, but it was just about 2mm too large for me in all directions. Loved the design and the deep red color though.


Agreed with much of this, I had a red/gray Orthos also for a time. Sold not because of size so much, but that darn dog, and I found the bezel difficult to grip and fidgit, which is my tendency. If I can't fidgit spin, why bother with a diver. I don't dive. Otherwise, the dial was the richest and best red I have seen on any watch. And I go after the reds. Loved the lugs, loved the bracelet too.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

In for sub h-link. Someone let me know when they're available. (Already have one of the BoR.)

Although I do have one of those Nodus Sector divers inbound. That may scratch the h-itch.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Aw, yeeeeaaahhhh...

























This was the Scorpéne I wanted 10 months ago, but I got one with the diver bezel instead. The Amphion Commando came out with the 12hr/countdown bezel, which was a great design, especially with the stainless bezel insert. But this is the one I wanted all along. Stole my horological heart when I saw the first renders, absolutely loving it on wrist.

(Just sold the Commando to a WUS member -- thanks, you know who you are...)


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Agent Sands said:


> That doesn't do much for me.
> 
> I'm firmly in the "newer is better" camp on this one, Doc. The brushed dial on the new one is stunning (in person, anyway).


I agree. This one is much better. Newish to me!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> That dial and bezel style would look better if the bezel was brushed steel, not black.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Said it before, I'll say it again - Omega designs peaked about 5 years ago. They've been screwing the pooch ever since.


Mostly agree. The Skyfall Aqua-Terra is the prettiest one they've done. The newer ones with the date at 6 are less attractive. Didn't like the new wave dial SMP when it launched, still don't like it. The point of the SMP was that it's supposed to be a reasonable size, and 41/47/12mm was perfect for a luxury dive watch. Now it's comparable to the Tudor Black Bay at 42/50/13.5. If you're getting something that big, why not just get a Planet Ocean?

I have to say I do like the re-imagined '40s era Seamasters though, particularly the Paris LE.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

3-1-1 said:


> Agreed with much of this, I had a red/gray Orthos also for a time. Sold not because of size so much, but that darn dog, and I found the bezel difficult to grip and fidgit, which is my tendency. If I can't fidgit spin, why bother with a diver. I don't dive. Otherwise, the dial was the richest and best red I have seen on any watch. And I go after the reds. Loved the lugs, loved the bracelet too.


Was never bothered by the wifi dog. Agree the bezel wasn't easy to grip, but I love the look of it so didn't care - and the bezel action is the nicest I have experienced.


----------



## karabiner159 (Sep 14, 2017)

Davekaye90 said:


> wtma said:
> 
> 
> > Cyclops FTW!
> ...


Exactly. Also, they tend to get so scratched up (at least on watches I wear frequently) that they become borderline illegible anyway.


----------



## Agent Sands (Feb 1, 2014)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Agent Sands said:
> 
> 
> > That doesn't do much for me.
> ...


Enjoy it!

Me, I'm a sucker for textured dials, and I think Omega really nailed the brushed look on the newer edition.

(Also, I'm not really a fan of green-ish lume.)


----------



## Cvp33 (May 6, 2017)

NTH Tikuna arrived! Now for a mini-review.

Great 40mm dive watch that wears easy at 11.5mm thick. Case is just beautiful with polished, beveled and brushed finishing. Drilled lugs fitting one of the nicest bracelets I've ever seen. The 20mm end links fit perfectly into the case and overall it has an oyster feel to it with tapering to an easy-to-wear 18mm. Honestly you could install the bracelet inside/out - the finishing looks that good. Peer through the sapphire crystal and you'll see a very nicely detailed dial face with superlumed indices and hands sweeping away at 28,800bph powered by the Miyota 9015 with a 42 hour power reserve. The black, stainless, also superlumed bezel is 120 clicks of perfection with absolutely no back play. TimeBum calls it retro-futurism. I like that description and I agree. Absolutely smitten!

Enough talk.........










GLAMOUR SHOT


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Was NTH behind earlier versions of Kigers, too? Looks like there were lume pips/pearls or whatever you call them at 12 on the bezel. And maybe some different crystals. Compared to the Subs. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> Was NTH behind earlier versions of Kigers, too? Looks like there were lume pips/pearls or whatever you call them at 12 on the bezel. And maybe some different crystals. Compared to the Subs.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


NTH didn't have anything to do with earlier Kigers.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Had a very nice, interesting, refreshing, somewhat surprising discussion with a watch reviewer this past week.

It started with my receiving this message from him (message image cropped to remove identifying info):








We ended up having a fairly lengthy academic exchange, regarding how to assess quality in a watch, regardless of price, in objective ways, while being as dispassionate as possible.

What struck me is that this gentleman has a background in manufacturing goods where tolerances, quality, and performance matter, a lot. He has some existing knowledge about the processes involved, and what can be expected as a result. And yet, he was willing to admit the limits of his knowledge. I only wish all reviewers had as much humility.

When that other gentleman reviewed his NTH here some months back, I remarked that I didn't know who he was, and thus didn't know if he was qualified to judge the watch. In retrospect, that sort of remark, while logically valid, probably would set most people on the defensive (just as it seemed to, in that case). But the fact remains - many WIS like to do reviews, and pass judgment, and yet I frequently notice people's opinions change as they gain experience and "WISdom."

Case in point is the most recent post from that same guy, the one who was questioning the quality and value of his Barracuda last year, in the thread where I got trolled for having the audacity to call someone's qualifications to criticize into question, and offered to buy back what seemed to be a great disappointment...









Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Been a minute.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Had a very nice, interesting, refreshing, somewhat surprising discussion with a watch reviewer this past week.
> 
> It started with my receiving this message from him (message image cropped to remove identifying info):
> 
> ...


Yeah, we all gain perspective don't we b-). I had a v1 Näcken modern black and said to you, at some point, that it wasn't a good Pelagos substitute. Now that I've owned a Pelagos and bought the Näcken (again....o|) I think its perfect* and arguably better than the Pelagos.....|>

* - just need that Titanium NTH sub with female end links and the ratcheting divers extension I've mentioned before ;-)


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hornet99 said:


> * - just need that Titanium NTH sub with female end links and the ratcheting divers extension I've mentioned before ;-)


+1


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hornet99 said:


> Yeah, we all gain perspective don't we b-). I had a v1 Näcken modern black and said to you, at some point, that it wasn't a good Pelagos substitute. Now that I've owned a Pelagos and bought the Näcken (again....o|) I think its perfect* and arguably better than the Pelagos.....|>
> 
> * - just need that Titanium NTH sub with female end links and the ratcheting divers extension I've mentioned before ;-)


And like I told you before, I wasn't angry at you for expressing your opinion at the time, no more than I am angry at anyone else for expressing theirs.

I'm only saying, as I've said many times, that opinions vary (duh), but as a manufacturer and owner of a brand, I have to weigh what I know or can gather about the person giving their opinion against what I know about others with differing views.

I tend to put more stock in the opinions of other brand owners/manufacturers, experienced watchmakers, and experienced collectors, than I do on the opinions of someone with unknown experience, posting anonymously to a forum, possibly with an axe to grind, or who may be simply parroting what they've read or heard from others, whose knowledge may be dubious, or who may have their own axe to grind.

I know the quality of what we produce, because I'm intimately familiar with it, and because I've gone through a learning process, over years, and made it part of my job to know the processes involved in production, and what constitutes reasonable regarding the results which can be expected. It isn't arrogance; it's just confidence, which comes from experience and knowledge.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

All charged up and nowhere to go...


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> But the fact remains - many WIS like to do reviews, and pass judgment, and yet I frequently notice people's opinions change as they gain experience and "WISdom."
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I've wasted a LOT of money figuring out what I "need" to be satisfied with a watch. Consequently, I'm now pigeonholed into a very narrow range of criteria. But it's definitely better than trying to convince yourself that a horribly uncomfortable watch is acceptable because you spent 4k on it. Nth subs are a really special blend of features, design, ergonomics and price. If the atticus stuff comes to light the other people making "dressy sport watches" under 1k are going to get their asses handed to them.

Anyway, is that conversation with that reviewer going to be published sometime? Sounds like the kind of thing I'd like to listen to or read.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



92gli said:


> Anyway, is that conversation with that reviewer going to be published sometime? Sounds like the kind of thing I'd like to listen to or read.


I gave him my permission to use what I told him, if he wanted to do a "how to" piece about judging quality. It sounds like he may do just that.

Otherwise, I think the discussion was mostly for his own benefit.

I don't really want to post everything I told him here, or even try to do a summary. Some of it was stuff that wouldn't translate well to a written review, only a video review. Some of it was subjective. Some of it would no doubt invite debate, and I'm so tired of debating people here.

I gave him a few real-world examples. I know for certain, that if I posted those here, calling out the specific things I called out for him, I'd be accused of trashing a competitor, which isn't what I was doing, at all.

We got kind of deep into the weeds, regarding manufacturing tolerances, QC standards, and related topics. I've discussed those things on the forum, more than once, but seen the result. I'm either preaching to the converted, or the haters twist it around and say I'm making excuses for low quality.

Something he said near the end struck a chord with me, making me realize that most people posting reviews of any sort to forums are noobs, and most of the guys reading blogs and watching YT reviews are noobs, and in fact, a lot of the guys starting blogs or YT channels are noobs.

Think about it - experienced collectors of anything aren't as likely to pay any attention to what amateur bloggers or YT reviewers say. They might be interested in reviews of something they're thinking of purchasing, but they'd be more likely to trust someone with demonstrated (or merely perceived) expertise on the subject. No one who's been collecting for a while cares what "Joe the Watch Guru" on YouTube thinks the five best dive watches under $500 are.

Noobs aren't looking to have the conventional wisdom challenged. They just want reviewers to confirm what they already believe to be true ("Swiss" = "better", heritage means something, in-house is better, etc, etc, etc). Meanwhile, experienced collectors already know what's true enough for them, when it comes to their own tastes. I think "experience" in collecting is a process of narrowing your horizons, not broadening them.

For me, after 7 years doing this, I'm so over trying to persuade noobs that what they think is true really isn't, just as much as I'm over trying to dismantle the "knowledge" someone is clinging to after years in the hobby. I'm over trying to debate people who are anonymous, with a crowd of anonymous spectators. I know what I know, and beyond that, I try not to get sucked into any madness as it unfolds online.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

Here's my new Nazario Ghost - the latest addition to my California dial collection - along with my other NTH-ish Cali dials. NTH is right at the top edge of my wearability envelope, which keeps me from buying them as much as I'd like, but the Ghost pushed multiple buttons for me, so I waited until they were all gone to decide to buy one. It's part of how I control my watch buying. Then, a NIB one showed up on ebay, so that was that. No regrets!









On the left is the original Nazario on the NTH BOR. The middle is my new Ghost, on the older bracelet from Nazario 1 because it was already sized. On the right, the jelliottz one-off NTH based Zerograph homage on the Watchgecko BOR bracelet.

I really like the simplicity and relative sparseness of the Ghost, and may keep it on the standard bracelet for the simpler look. At first, I thought maybe I'd get rid of the original Nazario, but it's got more of the original Zerograph vibe going on, which appeals to me, so maybe it'll be the Jelligraph that moves on.

As for the NTH vs Watchgecko BOR bracelets, the NTH is a pretty clear winner, though the Watchgecko is quite good for less money. The NTH beads are shorter, which I like, and the outer link brushing and steel color are a better match for the NTH case, not surprisingly. I tried to put the Uncle Seiko Speedy BOR on one of these, but it doesn't come close to fitting on NTH (maybe it's the fat spring bars).

The solid end links are where the NTH BOR shines - the fit is very close to both the case and the tops of the lugs. It's got more curve to the end links to match the beads, compared to the stamped and folded end links on the WG. The WG end links are also snug against the case, with no gap, but sit about a mm below the lugs, and there's more gap between the WG end links and the first beads. Both types are female end links, so the bracelet drops down before the end of the lugs, which is important for small wrists like mine. Also, the lip on the NTH end links makes swapping bracelets super easy, especially compared to hollow end links.

The Watchgecko clasp is very similar to the older NTH clasp (it looks identical to me), which is solid and decent, but the new style clasp on the NTH BOR is nicer, IMO. It's more solid and bigger, but not unbalanced, and has more adjustment holes (6 vs 3), which I like a lot.

This is my favorite NTH so far - the Sauro called to me a few times, but not enough to pull the trigger.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MaxIcon said:


> The Watchgecko clasp is very similar to the older NTH clasp (it looks identical to me), which is solid and decent, but the new style clasp on the NTH BOR is nicer, IMO. It's more solid and bigger, but not unbalanced, and has more adjustment holes (6 vs 3), which I like a lot.
> 
> This is my favorite NTH so far - the Sauro called to me a few times, but not enough to pull the trigger.


The new clasp is definitely better-made than the old clasp.

The main complaints we've gotten about the new one are that it's too long and/or too thick.

But...

1. It's only 0.1mm thicker than the old clasp. That's such a small number, it's practically "nothing".

2. It's a small price to pay for better quality.

3. The length? Meh, the top part with the micro-adjustment holes is longer, yes, but the folding arms which sit underneath are exactly the same length. So overall, it only *looks* longer, but really *isn't* any longer. Meanwhile, we picked up more micro-adjustments. I think 6 is probably overkill, more than anyone would need, but whatever, if people want them, we got them.


----------



## karabiner159 (Sep 14, 2017)

docvail said:


> MaxIcon said:
> 
> 
> > The Watchgecko clasp is very similar to the older NTH clasp (it looks identical to me), which is solid and decent, but the new style clasp on the NTH BOR is nicer, IMO. It's more solid and bigger, but not unbalanced, and has more adjustment holes (6 vs 3), which I like a lot.
> ...


Having loads of micro adjustments is great for me, because I gain and lose weight really quickly. It's so annoying having to remove and replace links every couple of months, so you've got my vote.

Of course I can't vote with my wallet quite yet, but with time...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

This is probably obvious, but regardless of the insightfulness of the presenter, YT videos are still invaluable for seeing watches you can't easily handle in person. Different angles (and motion), different light, possibly a wrist similar to yours. 

I'm always happy to see Marc from Long Island review something I'm interested in because he seems knowledgeable and sensible to me - so I'll pay attention to the audio. But more importantly, we have similar sized wrists. So I can vicariously try on watches. 

Side note, a great thing about all the variety of subs is that I already know I like the size/fit. So if I like a new design, there is never the potential disappointment that fit will rule it out. 

Kind of reminds me of clothes shopping, which I HATE. Went through that agony this weekend. I flounder around until I find a style/size of pants or shirts or whatever that fit. Then I buy every color they make (maybe a double of some) and hope to not set foot in a dressing room again for as long as possible.


----------



## karabiner159 (Sep 14, 2017)

3WR said:


> This is probably obvious, but regardless of the insightfulness of the presenter, YT videos are still invaluable for seeing watches you can't easily handle in person. Different angles (and motion), different light, possibly a wrist similar to yours.
> 
> I'm always happy to see Marc from Long Island review something I'm interested in because he seems knowledgeable and sensible to me - so I'll pay attention to the audio. But more importantly, we have similar sized wrists. So I can vicariously try on watches.
> 
> ...


Everyone thinks I wear the same T shirt every day... I've just got six in the same colour lol.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> The new clasp is definitely better-made than the old clasp.
> 
> The main complaints we've gotten about the new one are that it's too long and/or too thick.
> 
> ...


I liked the new clasp a lot at first, but after messing around with it a bit, I found something that made me like it even better: I only kept enough links in the bracelet to reach the clasp. The fewer links "underneath" the bracelet, the less it "sticks up." Ahhhh


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> This is probably obvious, but regardless of the insightfulness of the presenter, YT videos are still invaluable for seeing watches you can't easily handle in person. Different angles (and motion), different light, possibly a wrist similar to yours.
> 
> I'm always happy to see Marc from Long Island review something I'm interested in because he seems knowledgeable and sensible to me - so I'll pay attention to the audio. But more importantly, we have similar sized wrists. So I can vicariously try on watches.
> 
> ...


Yep, I definitely know a hell of a lot more about watches than when I started collecting about three years ago, but there are still plenty of watch based YT channels that I like for a variety of reasons. I'm not going to make any serious buying decisions based on what The Time Teller says, but I think he's amusing to watch. The Watchfinder guy's knowledge is encyclopedic, but most of the stuff they cover is megabuck Pateks and what not. It's always really cool to see those watches under extreme magnification though, or that hilarious video where they showed a Rolex Air-King with the 9 - 6 - 9 dial on it. The Just One More Watch guy covers tons of lesser known micros that no one else does, and in a lot of cases his review is my first exposure to a brand or particular model.

Some watches also just have to be seen in motion to be appreciated. This thing for example:


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> The new clasp is definitely better-made than the old clasp.
> 
> The main complaints we've gotten about the new one are that it's too long and/or too thick.
> 
> ...


IMO those long clasps on divers look silly for the smaller wristed population.

I don't have the new NTH clasp but I think you can cut that as well. With a fine saw and some sandpaper cutting the not needed extra holes away, no one will notice it. 
Been there, done that on some bracelets.

That's not possible with those "extendable" stuff like the R. Sub clasp.

Its not mainstream popular but nothing beats the comfort of a thin bracelet with a cheapo folded clasp.


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Silver bracelet on NTH case. Fits like a charm with a 20-16mm taper and female end links.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;amp;amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I gave him my permission to use what I told him, if he wanted to do a "how to" piece about judging quality. It sounds like he may do just that.
> 
> Otherwise, I think the discussion was mostly for his own benefit.
> 
> ...


With regards to reviewers. I'm honestly usually only interested in the pictures and videos (videos especially) they make. A good video with good lighting often tells more about the quality of a watch than anything the reviewer has to say.

If my eye cannot see obvious flaws, I'm usually good. My judgement of quality doesn't go farther than my perception of it (feel and visual), and it doesn't need to go any further, because that's all I experience of a watch.

The only other thing that matters beyond what is experienced directly is durability. So track record of a brand is important. Some basic specs matter (sapphire, movement). Customer service matters. For that I don't need a blogger, I can do my own online research. Customer reviews, forums etc. are much more telling by number of bad/good response. (Easy to pick out Helgray for example.. wouldn't ever buy based on CS reputation).


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hmm. Mostly I agree with what's been said above - the main use in youtube reviews is getting to see how the watch looks in various angles, positions, lights, in motion, etc.

And, yes, the range of expertise ranges wildly from "None" to "Some". However, there is some value in the spoken opinions anyway - they are informative on what the general opinion of the watch is likely to be, and a proxy for how many people would be interested in the watch (or not). As long as you make peace with the concept that youtube reviewers can be (and often are) objectively wrong in their judgement, it's all good.

The amount of times when "_I'd like this if it had a Sellita instead of Miyota_" is posted in the youtube comments, though, is really disheartening/frustrating.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

For me, with YT reviewers, I get a lot of the intangibles that I would only get by handling a watch in person.

Mainly wearability, weight on wrist, finishing, etc. I tend to follow the people that have similar taste and wrist size to me because over time, I get a sense of their preferences and what type of watches they gravitate towards.

The ones I follow are:
Just one more watch
Random rob
Bruce Williams
Average bros 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

liquidtension said:


> Silver bracelet on NTH case. Fits like a charm with a 20-16mm taper and female end links.
> 
> View attachment 14796783
> 
> View attachment 14796785


Got a link to the bracelet please?


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Hornet99 said:


> Got a link to the bracelet please?


Don't think it is sold separately, but you try to email silverwatchcompany[at]gmail.com


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

liquidtension said:


> Don't think it is sold separately, but you try to email silverwatchcompany[at]gmail.com


Aaaah, sorry just thought you meant the colour rather than the company!


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

Hornet99 said:


> Aaaah, sorry just thought you meant the colour rather than the company!


LOL! it's the silver watch co that made the archetype one.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Boom.
> 
> 
> 
> ...












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hey doc, this might be interesting to you ("Talking Distribution Perspectives for the Watchmaking Industry"):





They start out pretty quick with talking hard numbers, doesn't seem to be hiding much either.

And wait till you figure out the real hook of that video (and who the interviewed guy is). ]:>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hey doc, this might be interesting to you ("Talking Distribution Perspectives for the Watchmaking Industry"):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You lost me at Thomas Baillod, founder of the Watch Trade academy.

He's the guy behind that BA1110D watch, which is sold like it's some sort of Ponzi scheme.

His background is working within Victorinox, and some other Swiss brand. His "Watch Trade Academy" and that BA1110D watch are his first forays into entrepreneurship.

I don't want to sound catty, but he's not someone I'd turn to for advice on how to fix what's wrong with the industry. He's been steeped in it, his whole career. What the industry needs are people from outside it, who understand how most businesses/industries work, and will instantly see what's effed up in the watch industry.

Honestly, it's not a mystery. It's all in the numbers, for anyone who knows how to read them.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Yeah. Halfway through the vid, when he stopped talking about the industry and started pitching his brand, it was a bit unexpected (had no idea who the guy was from face/name). Afaik just last week, there was an aBlogtowatch article from him about the same supposed topic (fixing the industry via his academy or somesuch)... I guess that's one way to try and get a hustle going. 

Tbh I was more hoping that at the start, he mentions some numbers that were previously unknown. Maybe not, though - I haven't exactly been digging through the reports. It is interesting to hear that the nr. of units sold are dropping like flies while the average turnover remains about the same... That means a mad rush to the peak from everyone, doesn't it?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Yeah. Halfway through the vid, when he stopped talking about the industry and started pitching his brand, it was a bit unexpected (had no idea who the guy was from face/name). Afaik just last week, there was an aBlogtowatch article from him about the same supposed topic (fixing the industry via his academy or somesuch)... I guess that's one way to try and get a hustle going.
> 
> Tbh I was more hoping that at the start, he mentions some numbers that were previously unknown. Maybe not, though - I haven't exactly been digging through the reports. It is interesting to hear that the nr. of units sold are dropping like flies while the average turnover remains about the same... That means a mad rush to the peak from everyone, doesn't it?


I think I'm saying the same thing here, but in my words, in case we're not...

If you look at the export figures published by the FHS, a clear pattern emerges. The Swiss are generally raising prices while selling fewer units, in almost every price range, with the exception of the $400 to $1000 price range, where they've been holding prices steady, if not lowering them.

In "business fundamentals" terms, there are two basic takeaways:

1. You can conceal some problems with your sales figures by raising prices. Even if your total units sold number goes down, you can make up for it with those higher prices. If someone is just looking at your gross revenue number, the problems may not be apparent.

2. They're still problems.

To illustrate:









In mature & stable industries, sales growth tends to keep pace with inflation. Unit sales figures don't change much year to year, but there's still revenue growth as prices are raised to keep up with rising production and labor costs. The growth in unit sales may be nil, but there's still revenue growth (far left).

In growing industries, unit sales figures and revenue figures will go up, as more customers are buying the product, and/or existing customers are buying more of the product. Even without raising prices, this will cause revenues to go up, simply by selling more units (second from left). Unit sales and revenues will more or less go up at the same rate.

In a *REALLY* healthy industry, one where demand is rising very rapidly, and outpacing supply, you'd see both sets of numbers going up, but the revenue number going up more quickly, indicating that not only are you selling more units, but you're raising the average sale price. The rapidly rising demand, outpacing supply, gives you pricing power (the power to raise prices without decreasing sales - second from right).

The Swiss are generally doing the opposite, at least under $400 retail, and over $1000 retail. They've been increasing prices, regardless of real demand, even as their user base has been shrinking, and likely causing it to shrink that much more rapidly, by raising prices not just with inflation, but faster than wage growth. It's nucking futs.

That's the Swiss, far right, in every price range, except what I call the mid-market, or $400 to $1000. In that price range, regardless of whether the figures go up or down year over year, the unit sales tend to lead revenues, rather than the other way around.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14798537


This is from the 2018 report by the FHS.









It's denominated in CHF (the Swiss Franc), but their Franc has been at parity with the US dollar, or within a few cents, since they decoupled it from the Euro. For discussion purposes, I'll refer to the numbers in dollars, rather than francs.

The figures are "EXPORT" figures. Obviously, export values are going to be less than retail prices (duh). Based on my reading of the FHS reports, as well as other data points, I've come to believe that their export figures roughly equate to 50% of retail prices.

Thus, the price ranges here are under $400 (<200 CHF export value), $400-$1000, $1000-$6000, and over $6000.

For the sake of giving each of these price bands a name, I refer to them as "the mass market" (<$400), the mid-market, entry-level luxury, and luxury.

The graph shows year-over-year sales growth figures, by units sold and value (revenue), from the previous year. It's just a single snapshot of one year, as compared to the previous year. But they post these every year. And every year, no matter what the numbers are, good or bad, the pattern I see holds true.

Look at the units sold figures, compared to the value figures, in total, but also for each price range.

In most years, their total unit sales figures will lag behind their total revenue figures. If both numbers go up, the revenue will go up more. If both go down, the unit sales will go down more. Some years, unit sales are down, even as revenues are up (exactly what happened in 2017 and 2018).

They only maintain the summary reports with these easy-to-read graphs for the previous 3 years, but I've been reading them since 2012, and they have the raw (no graphs) numerical statistics going back as far as 2000.

Trust me. I've read all the reports going back to 2010, and run the numbers going back to 2000. The pattern holds, over the long-term, presenting a fairly recognizable trend-line, regardless of isolated blips in any given year.

Rising revenues are generally a good thing, but falling unit sales are ALWAYS a bad thing. If you're raising revenues while your unit sales are falling, you need to stop raising prices, yesterday, and focus on increasing your user base. Increasing prices is the last thing you should be doing.

The one range where things seem more or less "okay" for the Swiss, in terms of unit sales vs value, is that mid-market, $400-$1000 retail price range. It's the only range where unit sales frequently lead revenues.

To me, that indicates that it's the one range where the Swiss actually mind seeing their market share shrink, and they're willing to fight tooth-and-nail to maintain it, even if that means holding their prices down.

Baillod is right about some things he sees (I see them too). That segment of the market doesn't lend itself to the traditional, high-overhead, luxury-brand AD model. It's driven by ecommerce and digital word-of-mouth via social media.

Where he's wrong is thinking that the brands can gain profitability by "cutting out the middle man" - just like the analysts at Morgan Stanley are wrong when they say the same thing about luxury brands. The tasks involved in getting the product from assembly to the consumer are the same, no matter how many people or entities are involved. Each task needs to be compensated. There's no "savings" or "extra margin" created when you have one guy doing 12 tasks, instead of 12 guys doing one task each.

If anything, that just eliminates the efficiencies which come with specialization. It adds drag, removing savings, and sucking value out of the equation.

Proof - NTH prices didn't change when we added retailers, but the product and the service have actually gotten better.

He's also wrong in thinking a brand can create brand ambassadors / ersatz social media influencers out of customers by offering them some sort of financial incentive to shill the product. What did he call them? "Ambaffluers"? Something like that.

I just looked it up. It's "Afluendors"...sigh.

He has an online "Watch Trade Academy". I've been involved in the Microbrand University Workshop. He's got a background working in the part of the industry that's failing. I'm...well, you see what I'm about.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Ambaffluers. I'm getting that on a coffee mug


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Ambaffluers. I'm getting that on a coffee mug


I expect to be offered 5% of the coffee drank from that mug...


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

dmjonez said:


> Ambaffluers. I'm getting that on a coffee mug


I saw them in 94, didn't buy an album.

Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Doc, that new Scorpene looks great. 

Here's my issue with NTH... nothing. I will keep buying them. I have a few Rolexes and Omegas and other brands, but these NTH's are fantastic. I love the size, case design, thinness of the case and overall look. They wear very well on my wrist, too. 

My only critique would be that I'd like to see some really distinct colors; yellow, green, orange, red, grey and maybe even something like a plum colored dial. Granted, I know most would not care for these, but I'm just dreamin' here. 

My Nacken Modern Black (with date) shows up Wednesday). Really looking forward to it. 

Keep it up, Doc!


----------



## Cvp33 (May 6, 2017)

WeirdGuy said:


> Doc, that new Scorpene looks great.
> 
> *Here's my issue with NTH... nothing.* I will keep buying them. I have a few Rolexes and Omegas and other brands, but these NTH's are fantastic. I love the size, case design, thinness of the case and overall look. They wear very well on my wrist, too!


While generally I agree, I would have to say that upon further and more forensic examination of the brand, the design, their participation on our forums, willingness to engage with customers and now the warranty one would come to the same conclusion.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Doc, that new Scorpene looks great.
> 
> Here's my issue with NTH... nothing. I will keep buying them. I have a few Rolexes and Omegas and other brands, but these NTH's are fantastic. I love the size, case design, thinness of the case and overall look. They wear very well on my wrist, too.
> 
> ...





Cvp33 said:


> While generally I agree, I would have to say that upon further and more forensic examination of the brand, the design, their participation on our forums, willingness to engage with customers and now the warranty one would come to the same conclusion.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

WeirdGuy said:


> Doc, that new Scorpene looks great.
> 
> Here's my issue with NTH... nothing. I will keep buying them. I have a few Rolexes and Omegas and other brands, but these NTH's are fantastic. I love the size, case design, thinness of the case and overall look. They wear very well on my wrist, too.
> 
> ...


Yep.... I can picture myself getting a couple more Subs in the future (currently own 4), when Doc would start to work on new designs. Yellow and grey dial will very likely score sales from me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

After I saw that faded Oris in my watchmaker's shop, I asked Aaron to gin up an illustration of a sunburst yellow dial with a blue bezel.

I hated it.

Maybe there's a matte yellow Sub that'll happen in the future.

No promises.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Doc,

Any Carolinas left? Anyone backed out of theirs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

Too many words, not enough pictures!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## liquidtension (Feb 20, 2019)

jerseydan31 said:


> Doc,
> 
> Any Carolinas left? Anyone backed out of theirs?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Please contact @lifetrekker from the bsht thread.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

liquidtension said:


> jerseydan31 said:
> 
> 
> > Doc,
> ...


^This.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Too many words, not enough pictures!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok... This is for sure on the list now. I just checked, and its not a lumed dial, which I thought it was (I dont care for fully lumed dials).


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

WeirdGuy said:


> Ok... This is for sure on the list now. I just checked, and its not a lumed dial, which I thought it was (I dont care for fully lumed dials).


It's a good watch.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

^^^ We have an enabler!!! LOL


Now I have to decide between date/no date. Thank for the pics. Thats looks so good.


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

WeirdGuy said:


> Ok... This is for sure on the list now. I just checked, and its not a lumed dial, which I thought it was (I dont care for fully lumed dials).


Glad I could help 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


>


Looks like a cricket back there.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Now comes the difficult decision of date or no date. Hmmm...


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

WeirdGuy said:


> Now comes the difficult decision of date or no date. Hmmm...


Easy if you ask me, no date.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Nacken back on bracelet.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Love the blue bezel insert against the white dial... but hatin' on the "vintage" lume (even though it's a great application of it, to contrast with the white dial) and the mercedes hand. And mine would need a date. Not an NTH in which I'm interested.

OTOH, the Scorpene Nomad stayed on my wrist the whole weekend.









Only displaced today because I had a bracelet incoming for a different watch.

My path to this was: Scorpene, Amphion Commando, then this. I really wanted a Scorpene with 12hr bezel -- fantastic watch as is, but I'm not a huge fan of diver bezels. And truth be told, ALL the lume on the bezel, too, was a bit much. Then the Amphion Commando hit -- liked the stainless bezel and the 12hr/countdown scales, but not so much the Amphion dial and milsub hands. Don't get me wrong, great excecution and if that's your thing, fantastic watch, but I do like my Big Number dials and aviator hands. When the Nomad was announced, the Commando's days were numbered...

So the Nomad? Probably a keeper...


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

wtma said:


> Easy if you ask me, no date.


My only issue with this, is there will be a ghost position where the date should be.

Doc, you may have answered this before in this long thread, so apologies beforehand but, why do all no-date NTH's (other than the WatchGauge exclusives) not come with the no-date version of the Miyota?


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

X2-Elijah said:


> It's a good watch.
> 
> View attachment 14800253


Gold sand lume! ;-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> My only issue with this, is there will be a ghost position where the date should be.
> 
> Doc, you may have answered this before in this long thread, so apologies beforehand but, why do all no-date NTH's (other than the WatchGauge exclusives) not come with the no-date version of the Miyota?


We've been using the no-date movements in no-date watches for a while now, ever since we found out that the cost of the 90S5 had come down a good bit.

With date watch = 9015

No-date version of that same watch = 90S5

No-date only model = 9039


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> WeirdGuy said:
> 
> 
> > My only issue with this, is there will be a ghost position where the date should be.
> ...


PS - mild, mini-rant...

I ain't mad at nobody, but this whole "phantom date change position on the crown" complaint is, without a doubt, the single most "First World Problems" of first world problems among watch geeks.

If and when I sell my company, retire, or prepare myself to die, if someone asks me what it was like to deal with watch geeks, and all their inexplicable pecadilloes, the phantom date change will be in the top five reasons why I frequently wanted to chuck my laptop across my office like a frisbee.

And with that, I'm out, for at least a few hours, so I can do some actual work.

PEACE!


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> We've been using the no-date movements in no-date watches for a while now, ever since we found out that the cost of the 90S5 had come down a good bit.
> 
> With date watch = 9015
> 
> ...


Thanks, Doc for the info. Hope I didnt elevate that blood pressure too much with my question.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

It was really odd how the "phantom date position" complaint kinda appeared out of nowhere around iirc late 2017 or early 2018. Before that, nobody - and I do mean nobody - gave much of a toss about date position in a no-date watch; moreover, there was no such term as a "_phantom_ date position". There were some brands before that, modifying movements to remove date positions, but at a higher pricepoint, (iirc from germany), not making a big deal out of it, and most pertinently, nobody cared much if a date-having movement was in a no-date watch. _Especially_ when talking affordable watches.

Then something happened*, and all of a sudden, in very short time, WUS turned into a hardcore anti-phantom-position crowd. It's been a prevalent talking point, from a good part of WUS, ever since; and that same term has also suddenly started appearing on youtube reviews too (again, since c.a. 2018).

*- this is very foggy memory plus conjecture plus some guesstimating, but it might have started by a microbrand making a big deal about using no-date 90xx movements for their no-date watches, and introducing the idea that a "phantom date position" is a thing.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Honestly, the *only* upside to some models using a 9039 movement instead of 9015 is that 9039 was something like 0.3mm thinner (when hands were sticked on), allowing the 9039-model watch cases to have that extra 0.3mm room that could in theory be shaved off.

Now I gotta dodge a shoe that docvail has no doubt thrown in rage xD


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> It was really odd how the "phantom date position" complaint kinda appeared out of nowhere around iirc late 2017 or early 2018. Before that, nobody - and I do mean nobody - gave much of a toss about date position in a no-date watch; moreover, there was no such term as a "_phantom_ date position". There were some brands before that, modifying movements to remove date positions, but at a higher pricepoint, (iirc from germany), not making a big deal out of it, and most pertinently, nobody cared much if a date-having movement was in a no-date watch. _Especially_ when talking affordable watches.
> 
> Then something happened*, and all of a sudden, in very short time, WUS turned into a hardcore anti-phantom-position crowd. It's been a prevalent talking point, from a good part of WUS, ever since; and that same term has also suddenly started appearing on youtube reviews too (again, since c.a. 2018).
> 
> *- this is very foggy memory plus conjecture plus some guesstimating, but it might have started by a microbrand making a big deal about using no-date 90xx movements for their no-date watches, and introducing the idea that a "phantom date position" is a thing.


I wonder if one reason is that the buying populace has become more educated on different moments and what readily available and therefore because people now know there is a 9039 and if a no date watch doesn't have the 9039, it's now a "thing"

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Jason of Halios made a big deal of not using date movements in no-date watches. I think that was a likely infection vector for the WIS population. 

But there was low-level simmering before that. I recall a rant thread in which the OP thought everyone would agree with him that a date movement in a no-date watch was a horrific crime against humanity, and was shocked when most responses were yeah whatever yawns. And another person who could not be happy with his NH35 until he swapped it for the no-date equivalent. (Or maybe it was the same person.)

I'd rather have no-date if it doesn't cost me any more, but otherwise I don't care.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

1) An extra detente crown position? That's what people are all up in arms about?

2) Or some *click* when the date changes AT MIDNIGHT, when sane people are sound asleep? And that's only non-Seiko movements...

That's what the whole no-date movement fuss is all about? My godz, it's not like there's even anything serious, like a bezel being 1% off...


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> 1) An extra detente crown position? That's what people are all up in arms about?
> 
> 2) Or some *click* when the date changes AT MIDNIGHT, when sane people are sound asleep? And that's only non-Seiko movements...
> 
> That's what the whole no-date movement fuss is all about? My godz, it's not like there's even anything serious, like a bezel being 1% off...


There's a percentage of folks that are just bat sh*t crazy in the world......

WIS folks (don't try and deny this anyone) are generally more crazy for the whole watch obsession.....

Hence the considered crazy element of WIS are going to be really crazy......

Therefore WIS = distilled crazy.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

I have to be blunt, I never knew about 99% of the things folks complain about with respect to their watches until I started reading WUS thoroughly.

Like, I'll bet I owned my SKX for 6 months before I finally learned about the whole misalignment thing with Seikos. I checked mine out and, yep, it's slightly off. Huh. I never, ever would have noticed that without WUS pointing it out.

Likewise it never would have occurred to me that one could or should be upset about a ghost date position if WUS hadn't told me.

Having said all that, I just can't be bothered to be bothered about any of these things. There are details that bother me in life, but fortunately with watches that obsessiveness just isn't there.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Toonces said:


> I have to be blunt, I never knew about 99% of the things folks complain about with respect to their watches until I started reading WUS thoroughly.
> 
> Like, I'll bet I owned my SKX for 6 months before I finally learned about the whole misalignment thing with Seikos. I checked mine out and, yep, it's slightly off. Huh. I never, ever would have noticed that without WUS pointing it out.
> 
> ...


.....and before I found WUS I wore the same watch day after day for over 10 years. Never worried about whether it was too big for my wrist, never worried about need a collection of watches for different occasions and situations, never worried about it being a quartz (rather than a mechanical watch with a *soul*). ***** WUS what have you done to me!


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

The downside, of course is that now I notice things.

For example, I just put the bracelet back on my Citizen Aqualand Kuroshio. The original spring bars are stuck in the Borealisofrane strap I had it on, so I had to use some spares to fit the bracelet. I guess they're the wrong diameter because now the bracelet sits with this slight, maybe 1/2 mm gap between the case and end link. It's one of those things I never would have noticed before, but now I can't unsee it. LOL @ me. 

It's not stopping me from wearing the watch, but clearly I'm going to have to source the proper spring bars now. Sigh.

Whelp, off to read more about Phoibos's QC standards. Surely that can't do any harm, right? Right?!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I do believe Jason from Halios was the first guy to "go the extra mile" on the no-date thing.

I remember discussing it with him, over dinner in Hong Kong, in 2016, prior to his release of the original Seaforth. He told me he planned to use the 90S5, which was the only no-date option in the Miyota 9 series range at that time. I asked him what they cost, and was shocked to learn they cost about 1/3 more than the regular 9015.

Understand - I do numbers in my head. And these numbers are tattoo'd on my frontal lobe. His cost on those movements was comparable to what ETA 2824-2's were going for at the time. I knew that meant pricing the Seaforth *A LOT* higher than most microbrand watches with "only" a Miyota 9 series inside them, at that time.

But, it's Jason, and Halios. He's that guy, the guy who obsesses over every detail, and he was adamant that no one should feel the date-setting detent in the crown of the Seaforth.

The first discussion I can recall about the "phantom date change" position on the crown was over in the dive-watches sub-forum. I believe the thread was started by a user calling himself PinkyBrain, or something similar. I remember the discussion, because Pinky characterized brands that use with-date movements under no-date dials as cutting corners, or "cheaping out", which I think was the specific phrase used.

I took umbrage at the time, and tried to explain that when we used a Japanese movement, they all came with date-change positions as standard. Unlike the Swiss movements, where we can often get no-date versions at no difference in cost, our choices with the Japanese movements all came at an added cost. We could either follow Jason's lead, by using a movement that cost 1/3 more than the with-date version, or we could modify the movements (maybe, I'm just guessing), but at some significant increase in cost.

And, as you all know by now, at least with me, if my costs go up, your prices go up. That's just how this game is played.

I can't recall if Pinky was having any of it. He seemed riled up, but subsequent exchanges with him seemed to indicate he's fairly reasonable, otherwise. 

Then, Miyota announced the no-date 9039, and all the WIS rejoiced. All but me. I had the unfortunate task of trying to explain to everyone that the hands-setting height on the 9039 was lower than the 9015, meaning we couldn't use the same hands on the 9039, meaning we couldn't just make a bunch of no-date versions of the same watch we were making with the 9015, because it was almost certain that there would be massive problems in assembly, caused by the confusion about which hands were which, given that the only difference between them is a fraction of a millimeter. 

Then, HWA insisted that he was sourcing dirt-cheap 90S5's somewhere, and that the hands-height was the same as the 9015. I was sure their cost was still 1/3 more, but HWA has an annoying habit of being right a lot more than he's wrong, so I asked my OEM about it.

Sure enough, the cost of 90S5's had come down since 2016. They're a few dollars more than the 9015. The 9039 is a few dollars less. It all averages out to work out about the same, so since sometime in 2018, we've been using all three movements, in order to make all the "Phantom Date Change is the Devil" guys STFU.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> We've been using the no-date movements in no-date watches for a while now, ever since we found out that the cost of the 90S5 had come down a good bit.
> 
> With date watch = 9015
> 
> ...


Bonus: you can mod the dial for skeleton feature on the 90S5! WooHoo!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Bonus: you can mod the dial for skeleton feature on the 90S5! WooHoo!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


*Cutting holes in your dial to expose the "skeleton" feature will void your warranty.


----------



## Coriolanus (Nov 3, 2014)

Toonces said:


> I have to be blunt, I never knew about 99% of the things folks complain about with respect to their watches until I started reading WUS thoroughly.
> 
> Like, I'll bet I owned my SKX for 6 months before I finally learned about the whole misalignment thing with Seikos. I checked mine out and, yep, it's slightly off. Huh. I never, ever would have noticed that without WUS pointing it out.
> 
> ...


Yep. That was me with the whole thing about the hour hand not being right on the marker when the minute hand is at 12.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> It was really odd how the "phantom date position" complaint kinda appeared out of nowhere around iirc late 2017 or early 2018. Before that, nobody - and I do mean nobody - gave much of a toss about date position in a no-date watch; moreover, there was no such term as a "_phantom_ date position". There were some brands before that, modifying movements to remove date positions, but at a higher pricepoint, (iirc from germany), not making a big deal out of it, and most pertinently, nobody cared much if a date-having movement was in a no-date watch. _Especially_ when talking affordable watches.
> 
> Then something happened*, and all of a sudden, in very short time, WUS turned into a hardcore anti-phantom-position crowd. It's been a prevalent talking point, from a good part of WUS, ever since; and that same term has also suddenly started appearing on youtube reviews too (again, since c.a. 2018).
> 
> *- this is very foggy memory plus conjecture plus some guesstimating, but it might have started by a microbrand making a big deal about using no-date 90xx movements for their no-date watches, and introducing the idea that a "phantom date position" is a thing.


Could only have been Halios starting that, but he was hardly the only uber-uptight wis on the boards. You don't have to look far or swing a long stick to find one around here

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> *Cutting holes in your dial to expose the "skeleton" feature will void your warranty.


As if I ever cared for a 6-yr warranty

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Meanwhile, if you want to hemorrhage cash, get drunk and visit WatchRecon, or just hang around a train station with reasonable dentistry and dare to make eye contact with anybody. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Delayed double-post.

Unrelated random pic.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Forthcoming fun









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ILiveOnWacker (Dec 5, 2014)

hwa said:


> As if I ever cared for a 6-yr warranty
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Would you care for a 7-yr warranty?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Would you care for a 7-yr warranty?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You laugh, but since announcing our 6 year guarantee, I've been awaiting someone announcing a 7-year guarantee.

You know where this is going...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

ILiveOnWacker said:


> Would you care for a 7-yr warranty?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No. I cant last past about 6 mos without voiding a warranty

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

hwa said:


> Forthcoming fun
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice! I would buy a PVD 'Cuda Brown in about 12 seconds. Cerakote I'm less crazy about, but it would still look cool. As it is, Crystal Times' new SKX to Samurai case has my mind reeling with the possibilities, especially since they confirmed there will be a forthcoming black IP version. Jade Monster Samurai is now happening.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Speaking of mods, since I posted a lazy photoshop mock-up of this guy a long while back in this forum, figured I might as well show off the finished (well almost) Ocean Master Professional 200M. PO hands are gonna be swapped out for LA's new lumed Grand Seiko hands.


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

hwa said:


> Bonus: you can mod the dial for skeleton feature on the 90S5! WooHoo!


So there's a phantom skeleton in my no-date Tikuna? How can I enjoy this watch anymore knowing that my least favorite feature is hiding just behind the dial? Thanks for nothing.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sussa said:


> So there's a phantom skeleton in my no-date Tikuna? How can I enjoy this watch anymore knowing that my least favorite feature is hiding just behind the dial? Thanks for nothing.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Sussa said:


> So there's a phantom skeleton in my no-date Tikuna? How can I enjoy this watch anymore knowing that my least favorite feature is hiding just behind the dial? Thanks for nothing.


You have a skeleton inside you, too. Knowledge is power.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> You have a skeleton inside you, too. Knowledge is power.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)




----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Wearing a t-shirt with skeleton print while voicing those complaints 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> View attachment 14802463


I love cerebral discussions.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Yeah, WIS be crazy. But I'll be darned if I wasn't very pleasantly surprised when I got my first no date, no phantom sub. I wouldn't rule out a watch for having phantom date. But no doubt the solid, two position (in-out) crown action is better if available. At least based on my experience with two such subs.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

WeirdGuy said:


> ^^^ We have an enabler!!! LOL
> 
> Now I have to decide between date/no date. Thank for the pics. Thats looks so good.


You may need to work at finding one. (He said boldly without fact checking that they're actually sold out.) You could leave the choice up to fate and go for first available.

Santa Cruz is crispy white goodness in person.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

New oyster for the Scorp'lorer.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

3WR said:


> New oyster for the Scorp'lorer.
> 
> View attachment 14802715
> 
> ...


That looks killer. Nice pick up. I remember seeing that when it came up for sale. Glad someone in here picked it up.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

hwa said:


> You have a skeleton inside you, too. Knowledge is power.


Yeah, but I already hated my body. At least I had pretty watches to bring me joy.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Here's the thing with the phantom date poutrage--on a watch with date function I really have to try to even stop at the first, date-change detente. Usually, I pull the crown and end up in third crown position, anyway, then have to go back and *gently* feel for the date adjust second crown position. And on some watches, even that's a challenge.

Luckily, I prefer a watch have a date function, so the whole phantom date thing is moot on my end, and I take secret pleasure out of the consternation of the phantom date freaks on no-date only watches I'd otherwise like, if only they had a date function...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

3WR said:


> You may need to work at finding one. (He said boldly without fact checking that they're actually sold out.) You could leave the choice up to fate and go for first available.
> 
> Santa Cruz is crispy white goodness in person.
> 
> View attachment 14802643


Or he could just return to Watch Gauge to buy one.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> Or he could just return to Watch Gauge to buy one.


Which is exactly what I will be doing.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

docvail said:


> Then, HWA insisted that he was sourcing dirt-cheap 90S5's somewhere, and that the hands-height was the same as the 9015. I was sure their cost was still 1/3 more, but HWA has an annoying habit of being right a lot more than he's wrong, so I asked my OEM about it.


You really shouldn't encourage him.

Andrew, you need anything dropped in Amsterdam? Back twice in February...

And on a related note to the "ghost date" stuff, it's amazing HOW MANY different GMT movements there are, and how they're all COMPLETELY different. Each one moves a different hand in a different direction. Sometimes I just decide I don't need to know what time it is...


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Went with a no-date Santa Cruz. The NTH addiction is real. 

On a side note; my Nacken Modern Black with date will be here today.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> You really shouldn't encourage him.
> 
> Andrew, you need anything dropped in Amsterdam? Back twice in February...
> 
> And on a related note to the "ghost date" stuff, it's amazing HOW MANY different GMT movements there are, and how they're all COMPLETELY different. Each one moves a different hand in a different direction. Sometimes I just decide I don't need to know what time it is...


That would explain why almost every commercial flight seems to depart late.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Oooooooooook, Sauro pre-ordered. Done NTH shopping for now. LOL


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

WeirdGuy said:


> Oooooooooook, Sauro pre-ordered. Done NTH shopping for now. LOL


That's the problem with affordables... Obviously this is Doc's fault, intentionally I bet.

If he'd just use a swiss movement (or even better, in-house American), ceramic bezel, titanium case (& bracelet), display caseback with decorated movement (keeping the ATM, if not increase it), make the guarantee 7 years, and have modular by choice bespoke dial and hand set combos, the watches wouldn't be, "as affordable" and the opportunity cost to ownership would be more transparent.

All of that should increase cost, by maybe, if I'm generous, ~27%. Even that seems a little too high.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

WeirdGuy said:


> Oooooooooook, Sauro pre-ordered. Done NTH shopping for now. LOL


Doc = dealer
You = addict


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Doc = dealer
> You = addict


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

Just because I'm enjoying my Amphion Vintage, came across this Hodinkee article and it seemed relevant and fun.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/f...-and-cons?mc_cid=1fb36ff537&mc_eid=406096fc4b

Quick disposable read about fauxtina. Some history, some reasoning and opinions, few examples/pics, general what say you sentiment.

As a design feature/element, it can be over done or classically incorporated. At least with my watch, I think Doc knocked it out the park. I could go crazy and wish this were a gilt version (but gold would clash with silver polished hands and i like those a lot), but for what I'm holding, I'm utterly satisfied.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


>


----------



## delmar39 (Mar 1, 2018)

I love my NTH Skipjack can't take it off. Not sure I'd buy another though...same watch different face. Am tempted by their Vanguard though!!

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


>


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

delmar39 said:


> I love my NTH Skipjack can't take it off. Not sure I'd buy another though...same watch different face. Am tempted by their Vanguard though!!


I thought I might keep the Amphion Commando when I got the Scorpene Nomad. But I di'n't. And the original Scorpene was sold to finance the Commando. I appear to be a serial monogamist with my NTH watches, instead of polyamorous...

But I don't have a large collection, so I am uncomfortable with the thought of having two NTH subs at the same time. I know, heresy, Rusty already busted me on the FB group over it...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

delmar39 said:


> I love my NTH Skipjack can't take it off. Not sure I'd buy another though...same watch different face. Am tempted by their Vanguard though!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


Can't take it off, as in the clasp won't open?

Cut your hand off at the wrist, and send the whole affair back to us. We'll get that clasp off for you.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Nacken showed up. Looks great.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

That's customer service for you!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tanjecterly said:


> That's customer service for you!


I like to think we deserve a hand, when we lend a hand.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Speaking of Sauro's... I know it's only the 22nd, but what's the story on those Doc? They still gonna ship this month? Seeing the "order confirmed" on my tracking app is killing me!


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

RuggerAl said:


> Just because I'm enjoying my Amphion Vintage, came across this Hodinkee article and it seemed relevant and fun.
> 
> https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/f...-and-cons?mc_cid=1fb36ff537&mc_eid=406096fc4b
> 
> ...


Mississippi plates have fauxtina...










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Speaking of Sauro's... I know it's only the 22nd, but what's the story on those Doc? They still gonna ship this month? Seeing the "order confirmed" on my tracking app is killing me!


Keil has them, so....yeah, they should ship this month, but you have my permission to pester him about it, night and day, until it arrives.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Hello Doc,

is there a website or some sort of listing that contains a comprehensive list of all of the current and past NTH Sub models?

THX and take care.

JD31


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jerseydan31 said:


> Hello Doc,
> 
> is there a website or some sort of listing that contains a comprehensive list of all of the current and past NTH Sub models?
> 
> ...


"Current"? Yes. It's the NTH website.

Past? No, just like Rolex and Seiko don't maintain an evergreen archive of everything they've made.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> "Current"? Yes. It's the NTH website.
> 
> Past? No, just like Rolex and Seiko don't maintain an evergreen archive of everything they've made.


Cmon Doc!

Their list is pretty long! You've been making Sub models since 2016 (?).

Is the list that long?


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Was just wondering since there's a gagillion rolex fanboys sites out there (besides WUS) with listings and picture listings.....was wondering if NTH has such a site.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jerseydan31 said:


> Cmon Doc!
> 
> Their list is pretty long! You've been making Sub models since 2016 (?).
> 
> Is the list that long?


Length of the list has nothing to do with it.

Does the J. Crew catalog show you the jeans they sold in 2016, or just the jeans they have for sale now?

I'm running a business, not a library.

Seriously, I just had this *EXACT* discussion with someone else, in this very thread, less than a month ago. It's not happening.

Let. It. Go.


----------



## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

ok thx for the response.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

jerseydan31 said:


> ok thx for the response.


There are nearly (over?) 100 different NTH versions. I may have the most, got 17 of them.

4 Amphion 
- vintage black date
- vintage blue no-date 
- modern date
- Commando no-date

3 Barracuda 
- blue date
- brown no-date modded bezel bought pre-owned
- vintage gilt w/date

Santa Fe - no-date with modded snowflake hands bought pre-owned
Bahia - no-date
Carolina - no-date
Catalina - no date
Nacken vintage black no-date
Nazario Sauro
Zwaardvis
Tikuna date
Scorpène blue
Kiger MilSub

Plus 2 Orthos with date, red and grey/white

Old pic from the summer


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jerseydan31 said:


> Was just wondering since there's a gagillion rolex fanboys sites out there (besides WUS) with listings and picture listings.....was wondering if NTH has such a site.


You have my permission to start your own NTH fanboy site, and do what those fanboys who run those sites do (online research, on their own, likely with zero support from Rolex).

There's a 2016 thread started by HWA, on this forum, which has the original 8 Subs models.

This thread was started in 2016. No doubt if you went through all my past posts, you'd see all the other models released at different times.

You could also scour our Instagram feed or Facebook business page for past posts regarding new models.

There's also this thing all the fanboys are using now. It's called "Google". You might want to Google it.

I don't have the energy to list out 40 different Subs models every time someone discovers NTH and wants to know every model we've ever produced, or the production numbers thereof, or the release dates, or which ones had true no-date movements, etc, etc, etc.

Ford doesn't show you the 2016 models, and all their specs and production numbers. You get the 2020 models, and their specs, and that's it. If you want to know all about the 2016 Mustang, you go looking for info put out about it in 2016.

You're not the first to ask. I've been getting this request since 2014, when people wanted me to maintain visibility of our first model, which sold out earlier that year. That's not how this works. It's not how any of this works. When we sell out, and there's no reason to maintain the ongoing visibility of a product, we take it down.

Let. It. Go.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

dmjonez said:


> And on a related note to the "ghost date" stuff, it's amazing HOW MANY different GMT movements there are, and how they're all COMPLETELY different. Each one moves a different hand in a different direction. Sometimes I just decide I don't need to know what time it is...


IMO, the "proper" GMT is the independent jumping hour type, with the GMT hand intended to be set for home time. "Caller" GMTs are a lot less useful, unless you always need to know what time it is in some other time zone.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Re: the whole "phantom date" thing, I can't say it's ever bothered me. My Huldra V1 has a 9015 with a phantom date, and having to pull the crown out to the second position never ruined my day. The one nice thing about a no-date movement is that you can always move the hands forwards or backwards to set the time, because there's no date change mechanism to potentially damage if you try and go backwards too close to 12am. I always move the hands forwards on all my watches just in case though, so doing that too on the Huldra again isn't a bother.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

jerseydan31 said:


> ok thx for the response.


Read this post - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-1754.html#post50704139

Look near the bottom.

If someone can explain how maintaining visibility of a sold-out model, when we have no plans to produce more, helps us sell more of the models we have available now, or those we do plan to produce again, I'll consider it.

Until then, when I don't see any good reason to maintain the visibility of a product on our site, I take it down, permanently, unless and until we decide to bring it back.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Thanks for the info, Doc. And the permission to pester.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

delmar39 said:


> I love my NTH Skipjack can't take it off. Not sure I'd buy another though...same watch different face. Am tempted by their Vanguard though!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


Honestly you'd be surprised at how different a watch can seem with just a dial and handset change. These two are twins, but they look completely different on wrist, and I wear them for different things, often with different outfits. A Vanguard on a blue strap will look completely different than a Skipjack on a bracelet. I say get both!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Re: the whole "phantom date" thing, I can't say it's ever bothered me. My Huldra V1 has a 9015 with a phantom date, and having to pull the crown out to the second position never ruined my day. The one nice thing about a no-date movement is that you can always move the hands forwards or backwards to set the time, because there's no date change mechanism to potentially damage if you try and go backwards too close to 12am. I always move the hands forwards on all my watches just in case though, so doing that too on the Huldra again isn't a bother.


Assuming you were going to damage the date change mechanism by adjusting the date between 9pm and 4am, what difference would it make, if you didn't have a date window to reveal that the date change mechanism was broken?

A broken date change mechanism has no impact on the timekeeping of the watch.

RatFacedGit insisted that the whole "God help you if you adjust the date between 9 and 4" thing was largely overblown, even in the Seiko NH3x series, which has a plastic gear in the date change mechanism.

In order to prove it, he set about TRYING to break one, by changing the date over and over again, between 9 and 4, and couldn't do it. He had to fix the date wheel in place with rodico, then advance the date, in order to break that gear. But, that's an extreme test, wherein he created a problem which wouldn't exist under normal circumstances.

This was also what led him to hook his power drill up to the stem of an NH35, turn it on at high speed, and advance the time/date at 3,000 RPM, eventually causing a retention clip in the keyless works to completely disintegrate, leaving nothing but carbon dust behind.

RatFacedGit is like the "MythBusters" of the watch world.

I'm not saying that it's complete BS. It might be. But it can't hurt to avoid changing the date between 9 and 4, just in case it isn't. At the same time, if you do change it during those hours, we couldn't find anything in the mechanism of any of the movements we've used which would lead to damage.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'm not saying that it's complete BS. It might be. But it can't hurt to avoid changing the date between 9 and 4, just in case it isn't. At the same time, if you do change it during those hours, we couldn't find anything in the mechanism of any of the movements we've used which would lead to damage.


As far as I've been able to tell, changing the date as soon as the date wheel _looks_ like it's completed the change (around 12:30 or so) has never caused a problem on any of my watches. My SKX has a phantom day because I'm using a 6R15 dial, and I've changed the date before the day has finished its change, which I don't think happens until like 1:30 on the 7S26. Also no issues. What I thought you weren't supposed to do is adjust the time counter-clockwise during date change hours, because the date-change only goes forwards, and it doesn't like the watch hands going in the wrong direction. Is that not a thing?

Also, IIRC, one time I accidentally tried to adjust the date on one of my 6R21 based cocktails when I thought it was at 11:30am, when it was actually at 11:30pm, and it had already started to change itself. The 6R21 uses sub-dials, not wheels, and I think maybe it has some sort of clutch or something that disengages the crown date-set function during a date change, because it just didn't do anything at all when I turned the crown forwards at the date-set position. I may be misremembering that, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened. Not gonna purposefully test it to find out.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> What I thought you weren't supposed to do is adjust the time counter-clockwise during date change hours, because the date-change only goes forwards, and it doesn't like the watch hands going in the wrong direction. Is that not a thing?


It's not a thing I've ever heard about.

Maybe ask a watchmaker. There are some on this board.

All I can tell you is what I have. We've looked for reasons why the mechanism would be damaged by changing the date between 9pm and 4am, and couldn't find any.


----------



## delmar39 (Mar 1, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> Honestly you'd be surprised at how different a watch can seem with just a dial and handset change. These two are twins, but they look completely different on wrist, and I wear them for different things, often with different outfits. A Vanguard on a blue strap will look completely different than a Skipjack on a bracelet. I say get both!
> 
> View attachment 14804993


Thanks! Well I do keep looking at the Vanguard so you know what that means...I'll see. Nice watches BTW.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Read this post - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-1754.html#post50704139
> 
> Look near the bottom.
> 
> ...


If a back catalog of subs appeared somewhere on the internet, I'd probably enjoy seeing it and use it as reference now and again. But this isn't about making a case for it to happen. More in the spirit of discussing the psychology of watch buying and because you kind of asked...

I can think of two scenarios where showing sold out models might encourage new sales.

1. Sometimes if I stumble onto a watch brand and they have different versions, colorways of a watch listed but some are already sold out, it triggers FOMO. Even if my clear favorite option is gone and I should just let it go, I sometimes feel an urgency to decide which of the still available options is the best. So I can grab one of those before they, too, sell out. I normally come to my senses in time. Others might not.

2. The other is more of a long game. A lot of us have probably hunted older used models. Having a comprehensive list / gallery might help spark someone's interest in an older model and set them on the hunt. Spending time stalking and possibly not finding some older model could make buying the cool new models - while they're still easily had - seem like a good idea.

It does kind of seem like the type of listing an NTH fan might put together and maintain for fun. Not it!


----------



## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

docvail said:


> You have my permission to start your own NTH fanboy site, and do what those fanboys who run those sites do (online research, on their own, likely with zero support from Rolex).


https://nthwatches.com/fanboyzone/ ?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> It's not a thing I've ever heard about.
> 
> Maybe ask a watchmaker. There are some on this board.
> 
> All I can tell you is what I have. We've looked for reasons why the mechanism would be damaged by changing the date between 9pm and 4am, and couldn't find any.


It does seem to be a thing, at least according to a Breitling manual (as well as some random internet advice) "My Breitling manual says this:

"mechanical watches endowed with a date, day, month or moonphase indicator are equipped with a complex mechanism that is set into motion between 8 pm and 3 am. It is therefore vital to avoid adjusting the calendar or moving the time backwards during this period"


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Length of the list has nothing to do with it.
> 
> Does the J. Crew catalog show you the jeans they sold in 2016, or just the jeans they have for sale now?
> 
> ...


Raven does it and it's a pretty nice touch.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> Let. It. Go.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

yankeexpress said:


>


dang...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> It does seem to be a thing, at least according to a Breitling manual (as well as some random internet advice) "My Breitling manual says this:
> 
> "mechanical watches endowed with a date, day, month or moonphase indicator are equipped with a complex mechanism that is set into motion between 8 pm and 3 am. It is therefore vital to avoid adjusting the calendar or moving the time backwards during this period"


Meanwhile, the Vostok date change hack is to adjust to 2, past a date change, then wind back to 8 and advance again past 12 to get the next date, repeat until desired date is achieved.

In Soviet Russia, watch wind you!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> IMO, the "proper" GMT is the independent jumping hour type, with the GMT hand intended to be set for home time. *"Caller" GMTs are a lot less useful*, unless you always need to know what time it is in some other time zone.


This is totally the wrong thread to do this because NTH has never produced a GMT watch, and to the best of my knowledge, has no plans to, but...

I take issue with this. Different strokes for diff'rent folks. If I do business abroad, or like recently, a loved one was abroad, it was useful to have an independently adjustable GMT hand, so I did not have to futz with changing the time.

Or maybe you have a "travelers" GMT, with independently adjustable hour hand. For the fun of it, let's say you have the GMT hand set for a different time zone. If you travel, you're in the same boat as if you have a "callers" GMT, where might want to set the GMT hand to hometime and then set the hour hand to where you end up.

And really, what's the big deal, either way? Is your GMT chronometer-rated and you never or very rarely adjust it? Are you never without or far from a secondary timekeeping device by which you could set your watch 
while adjusting for a second time zone? If you have halfway decent short term memory, is it really all that hard to concentrate for a sheer moment to set your watch correct after making an adjustment to the hour hand?

I've geeked out on Seiko 8F56 quartz watches -- accurate to 20spy, perpetual calendar, "travelers" hour hand adjustment. Worked a charm while traveling. But I'm over them now, and have a watch with a 12hr bezel to take its place. Yes, I will adjust the time to local time, and then use the 12hr bezel to track home time, like a "callers" GMT. NBD. To keep things NTH-compliant, it's this one:


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

Yeah, that's all well and good. But when does the date change? ____ That's wrong, and you're wrong, it should change (opposite).

No true Scotsman ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> Raven does it and it's a pretty nice touch.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Good for Raven.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> It does seem to be a thing, at least according to a Breitling manual (as well as some random internet advice) "My Breitling manual says this:
> 
> "mechanical watches endowed with a date, day, month or moonphase indicator are equipped with a complex mechanism that is set into motion between 8 pm and 3 am. It is therefore vital to avoid adjusting the calendar or moving the time backwards during this period"


I don't know what to tell you.

We looked at the mechanism of how the date change is driven by the time being advanced, and didn't see anything which seemed likely to cause damage by advancing the date during the time when the automatic date change mechanism was already engaged.

I've never seen any "random internet advice" about not adjusting the time backwards when the automatic date change might be engaged. But I vaguely recall seeing images/video of the date change mechanism in action, while its operation was explained to me, and I don't remember seeing or hearing anything that would make me thinking adjusting the time backwards would cause damage.

I can't speak for whatever movement Breitling may have used. Perhaps there's something more delicate or complex involved in the date change mechanism of that one.

All that said, perhaps ask a watchmaker about it, rather than rely on random internet advice. Remember that random people on the internet are the same folks blathering on about "dynamic water pressure", "60% of the movement", "midnight runs" and other such nonsense.

Meanwhile, perhaps I'll ask around among the watchmakers I know, to see if I can flesh it all out some more.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Davekaye90 said:
> 
> 
> > IMO, the "proper" GMT is the independent jumping hour type, with the GMT hand intended to be set for home time. "Caller" GMTs are a lot less useful, unless you always need to know what time it is in some other time zone.
> ...


I'm definitely not planning to make a GMT, unless and until I can source an inexpensive and reliable GMT movement (looking at you, Orient, Miyota, and Seiko).

That said...

Rolex seems to own the franchise on making a "correct" GMT, with independently-adjusted and jumping hour hand (intended to be set to local time), whereas the ETA 2893-2 does it "backwards" with the GMT hand being independent, and jumping. Rolex is also the only one (that I'm aware of) which can also roll the date backwards with the time, which is pretty slick.

If the cost of the 2893-2 wasn't enough to keep me from using it, the complaints from watch-geeks about the "wrong" hand being the jumping hand puts me over the edge, into "eff this" territory.

The 2836-2 day-date conversion to GMT actually seems to be the more useful solution, in that both the hour and GMT hands are independently adjustable, but neither jumps in 1-hour increments, the movement is kinda chunky, it's also kind of expensive, and it's not available directly from ETA, only from a 3rd party which does the conversion. I've read that they can be prone to reliability issues. All that is enough to keep me from using it.

Going back to Orient -

I never bothered to look into how the GMT function works, whether it's the hour hand or GMT hand which is separately adjusted, but I just read the description of the Orient Polaris GMT on Island Watch, and saw this: "A separately adjustable hand (with lumed tip) tracks the second time zone in GMT or military time." If I'm reading that correctly, it seems that like the ETA, it's the GMT hand, not the hour hand, which is separately adjustable.

Pretending for the sake of discussion that Orient would wholesale their movements - I don't know how thick the Orient 40P5x series is, or how much it might cost when purchased in bulk, but judging by the case thickness and retail pricing on a few Orient GMT models, my guess is it's also a somewhat chunky movement, but the cost might be low enough to make it worth considering anyway.

Seiko/Miyota - No idea what Seiko is doing. I think I recently read or heard something about "industry rumors" saying Miyota was working on a 9xxx series-based GMT. That would be cool, if it materializes.

For now - 12 hour bezels are the best I can do, and considering they come at no added cost, or thickness, or increase in defect rate, I think they're a pretty good solution for your "I can't be bothered to do math when thinking about what time it is somewhere else" problem.


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

docvail said:


> Read this post - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/nth-l-h-janis-trading-doc-vail-3556858-1754.html#post50704139
> 
> Look near the bottom.
> 
> ...


Since I'm the poster that was bugging you about this previously... you didn't sell a new watch so to say, but because I found that older watch I was searching for (through other avenues than just your displayed pieces on the website) you were able to sell a BOR bracelet and a lume torch, that I would have otherwise not purchased.

There are some tangential benefits, and with the old catalog being static, I doubt would require much maintenance.

And as another poster mentioned, FOMO.

Edit- it's also an education of things that _may_ come to fruition again. While reissues aren't nearly a given, it shows range and possibility, informs potential customers to set up a google alert or the sort for future offerings.

Edit*2- Hey Doc, do you still have any of the Tropics or DevilRays available for sale personally or at a retail partner? I ask because those watches are still displayed on the website, but clicking the individual pieces, none of them appear available. I've checked most the retail partners (work fire wall blocked a few), but didn't see any available. Based upon recent discussions, if those watches are not available for sale, why are they still visible on the website?

(And as a customer, now the relationship is maybe becoming too familiar for anonymous rapport.)


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> All that said, perhaps ask a watchmaker about it, rather than rely on random internet advice. Remember that random people on the internet are the same folks blathering on about "dynamic water pressure", "60% of the movement", "midnight runs" and other such nonsense.


I'm fully prepared to believe that 60% of people have a dynamic case of the midnight runs.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I'm definitely not planning to make a GMT, unless and until I can source an inexpensive and reliable GMT movement (looking at you, Orient, Miyota, and Seiko)...
> 
> For now - 12 hour bezels are the best I can do, and considering they come at no added cost, or thickness, or increase in defect rate, I think they're a pretty good solution for your "I can't be bothered to do math when thinking about what time it is somewhere else" problem.


Back in the day, Rolex, Seiko, and others did GMT with a 24hr hand slaved to the 12hr hand (I.e. not adjustable) and a 24hr bezel. Which seemed to work just fine for people in an era when timekeeping via wristwatch was arguably more important than it is now. "Only" tracked two separate timezones, the regular time with 24hr time displayed and a second timezone via the 24hr bezel, but there ya go. Then Rolex went and messed everything up with their Master II GMT function...

You can still get a Vostok with the same slaved 24hr hand with 24hr bezel functionality for less than $100. If someone was making pretty much an exact homage of the Seiko 6117-8000, I'd be there.

Otherwise, in the affordable realm of modern GMT functions, the answer is quartz, a Ronda movement, which is showing up more and more. I think Straton uses them in their new 40mm GMT models, Phoibos and Boldr, too? They come with their own WIS complaints -- I they are not jump hour adjusting with the GMT hand/disk, and by WIS standards, are not very precise.

I've favored the Seiko 8F56 movements, but they are now discontinued, so you are limited to used/vintage. Just sold one, and the other one I have was claimed by Mrs-ish mconlonx, so I'm down to my Nomad for dual time-zone functionality.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

jerseydan31 said:


> Was just wondering since there's a gagillion rolex fanboys sites out there (besides WUS) with listings and picture listings.....was wondering if NTH has such a site.


Job for an NTH fan boy to do!


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> dang...


Were you at all surprised? Shouldn't have been.......


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Decided to wear the Nacken on the bracelet, and I gotta say, this is probably how it will stay for quite a while. Also, its probably going to be more of my daily wearer. Really glad I was able to grab the last one of these from WatchGauge.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Hornet99 said:


> Were you at all surprised? Shouldn't have been.......


Not really, considering yankeeexpress, but it is impressive to see them all lined up in one shot like that.

...and here I am, "I'd rather not have two different models of an NTH sub at the same time in my collection."


----------



## RuggerAl (Dec 18, 2014)

mconlonx said:


> Not really, considering yankeeexpress, but it is impressive to see them all lined up in one shot like that.
> 
> ...and here I am, "I'd rather not have two different models of an NTH sub at the same time in my collection."


Upon further consideration/reflection, one must ask- are you living your best WIS life? Gaze upon YankeeExpress, and the _Nth_ collection thereunto belonging, and acknowledge that is a WIS life well lived.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

RuggerAl said:


> Upon further consideration/reflection, one must ask- are you living your best WIS life? Gaze upon YankeeExpress, and the _Nth_collection thereunto belonging, and acknowledge that is a WIS life well lived.


Its impressive, thats for sure.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RuggerAl said:


> Since I'm the poster that was bugging you about this previously... you didn't sell a new watch so to say, but because I found that older watch I was searching for (through other avenues than just your displayed pieces on the website) you were able to sell a BOR bracelet and a lume torch, that I would have otherwise not purchased.
> 
> There are some tangential benefits, and with the old catalog being static, I doubt would require much maintenance.
> 
> ...


Ugh...

You found the watch you wanted through other avenues? Awesome. Then you bought a torch and a bracelet from us? More awesome.

It doesn't seem like you proved why I need to maintain visibility of older products. It seems like you proved that I can make sales even WITHOUT having old models visible on my site, which is EXACTLY what I already knew, and what I'll be saying again, in a moment...

Let's explore the arguments for and against...

1. Someone recently discovered NTH, goes crazy for the brand, and wants to know more about past models, so they can buy them.

Okay, let's unpack that...

We don't have them for sale any more. You can't buy them from us. If you want to go buying up old NTH Subs, just set up alerts for "NTH" on eBay and Watch Recon. That's all you need to do. We're done here. I don't have any role to play in this.

But, wait...you say, it's not ALL NTH Subs models, or ANY of them, it's one, specifically, you're interested in.

Okay...how did you get so interested in that one model, if it isn't visible on my site? You saw it somewhere online? Okay, now you know what it is, so go set up an eBay and WatchRecon alert for that model, specifically.

Still done here. Still no role for me to play in this.

2. Someone is interested in buying an older Subs version, and wants to know more about it.

Okay...all the Subs share the same basic specs and components. We don't publish the "release" date for any of them on the site. The specs we do publish are generally the same for every model. Where the specs may differ, say, in the exact lume color used, as an example, we don't publish that info.

The only exception to the above is the date/no-date version of the movement, which was something we only updated recently, and only on visible products. It wouldn't apply to older, sold-out/discontinued models, produced before we started using the no-date versions of the 9xxx.

Whatever it is you want to know about that old Subs version is either in the sales listing someone posted for that watch, available on our site by looking at a different version, or available by searching the web for it.

Worst case scenario, if you were considering buying a used Santa Fe, or Amphion Vintage Black, or whatever, and there was something you just HAD to know, and the seller couldn't tell you about it, you could shoot us an email to ask. Lord knows we get enough of those, one more isn't going to break us.

3. Someone has no intention of searching out an older, sold-out model, but is just that OCD that they feel there's some imperative for me to maintain the visibility of that info, forever, because they want it.

Seriously? Eff that guy. I so don't care about meeting the entirely unrealistic expectations of the most OCD among watch-geeks, especially not when it adds nothing to my business, and only takes away from it.

Don't know how many times I can explain this, but I'll try again - I don't focus one ounce of energy on pleasing the <1% of guys who are out of their minds when it comes to what they expect. I focus all of my energy on the >99% who are not out of their minds.

4. Someone sees something about an older model, perhaps a pic someone posts to social media, and wants to know more about it.

Dude, you saw a pic? Why not ask the guy who posted the pic about it?

I mean, seriously, explain this to me. Some guy posts a pic of his Santa Fe, but the hands are covering up the model name, so all you can see is the logo. You come to the NTH site looking for it, but it's not there.

How would you even know what model to look for if you didn't know the name? How would you know the name? Try asking the guy who posted the pic. As long as you're asking him for the model name, you could ask him whatever else you want to know.

What else would you want to know? How much it cost when he bought it? Ask him. What the specs are? You can find that by looking at any other NTH Sub on our site. There's nothing you can't figure out between asking that guy and looking at our site, even if the exact watch isn't visible there any more.

Those are all the reasons I can imagine why someone would bother to argue with me about this. Here's my response...

We get a dozen emails each week, from guys asking when we'll make more of _____. I don't want us to get more of them. I don't want to have to explain to a guy who really wants a Santa Fe that the Santa Fe wasn't as strong a seller as the Nacken Vintage White, and that's why we don't plan to make more.

We have an IG account, a FB business page, a FB fans group, an email newsletter, and I'm active on this forum. There's no way anyone emailing me to ask about _____ would miss the news if they were paying attention.

Let's say I plan to make more of _____ later this year, maybe, maybe not. So I tell the guy, maybe later this year. Know what else I tell them? Subscribe to the newsletter, and follow us on social media, to make sure you don't miss the announcement.

Seven years I've been doing this. Seven. Years. Every time I tell a guy "no" when he wants to hear "yes", there's a risk I'll piss that guy off. I've seen it happen enough times. And if I try to be courteous, by explaining my reasons for saying "no", I've seen how that often just sends the guy spinning off, telling people I brow-beat him just because he asked me a simple question.

You follow that? I said "no". The guy wouldn't have "no" as an answer, so he insisted on knowing my reasons why I say "no". When I give him my reasons why, he goes off and tells people I "rant", or was somehow insulting to him.

We've produced 38 different versions of the NTH Subs. We've got more planned. It doesn't make sense to maintain the visibility of all of them, when...

A. The page displaying all the models available now, and those we plan to make again, is already cluttered enough, making it harder for people to find the watch they want.

B. If we're not planning to make more of a model after it's sold out, we don't want to deal with emails from people asking when we'll make more.

C. We've raised prices since some of those models went out of production. How do I deal with that? Do I raise their prices to what they would be now, if I was still producing them? Do I leave them alone? If I leave them alone, then I get emails from guys asking why some of the watches are $600, and some are $650, yet they seem the same, so why do they have different prices?

I recently had a guy rip into me about the Watch Gauge LE version of the DevilRay.

The DevilRay is sold out. All versions. We maintain it on the website because we're planning to make more. Since we're making more, it's a "current" model, even though its sold out. I want people to see it, and be interested in it, so that when we have more, it's easier to sell them.

The guy was pissing in my ear, because the watch is visible on the site, but it's not for sale on the site. I explained that it was never available on our site, because it was a Watch Gauge LE, only available from Watch Gauge. He came back to piss in my ear some more, because it's also not available from Watch Gauge. I explained that yes, it isn't available any more, because it's sold out.

Do I need more of this $hlt in my life? No, not at all. That was just one exchange, with one guy, who felt compelled to go out of his way to piss in my ear about a watch we made, but he can't buy, right now, when he wants it. We get a few of those each month.

I need less of that in my life, not more. So, to tamp down on the pointless bull$hlt that finds its way to our inbox, we take down old models whenever there's no point in keeping them visible any more.

We try to get people to read our FAQ's before submitting the contact form, but at least once a week, we'll get people asking us things which are right there, clear as day. Even if I we marked a discontinued model as "discontinued", I know, to a certainty, that we'd get people asking us to make more of it.

Seven years I've been doing this. Seven years of unparalleled transparency into the thought process behind so many of my decisions. No matter what question you may ask or what suggestion you might make, trust me, I've heard it before, and there's a well-reasoned line of thinking behind why I do things differently than you may like.

If you don't like it, no hard feelings. There are other brands out there you can buy from. Raven apparently maintains an archive of old models. If that persuades you to buy a new model from them, good for Raven, and go buy a Raven. Steve makes great watches.

I just want everyone to be happy with whatever they buy, whoever they buy it from. If it's some other brand, but it makes you happy, I'm happy for you. I can't be held responsible for people who allow themselves to be made unhappy because I don't maintain the visibility of products they can't buy from me.

I also want to run my business as efficiently as possible, and catering to every demand from every WIS isn't very efficient. I'm running a business, not running for class president. If you're disappointed in me for not maintaining visibility of old models, and you see me as unreasonable, okay, sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not changing my position, no matter how unreasonable you may think it is.


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

Let it go, let it go
Can't hold it back anymore
Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door
Let it go (go, go, go go, go go, go go, go, go, go go)
Let it go...
Let it go...
Let it go...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> I'm fully prepared to believe that 60% of people have a dynamic case of the midnight runs.


So...just spoke to my watchmaker about it all...

There's nothing in the mechanism which would seem likely to cause damage, either by advancing the date, or by rolling the time backwards, when the automatic date change mechanism was engaged.

He says there are fail-safes built into the movement, to avoid damage being caused by adjusting the date (or rolling the time back) during that time, just as "back-hacking" isn't going to damage a non-hacking movement, and rolling back and forth over midnight to advance the date on your Vostok won't damage it.

His best guess is that it's a "CYA" move by the brands mentioning it in their literature. If you break your watch, it gives them the ability to say you broke it by doing something they told you not to do - changing the date (or rolling the time back) between 9pm and 3am. I'm not saying that's their reason, I'm just saying, it's one theory about why they say it.

That said, and as I said, we can only tell you what we found. I'm not telling you the "don't touch the date between 9 and 3" thing is BS. It certainly can't hurt to avoid changing the date (or rolling the time back) during 9 and 3, just to be safe.


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

I'm surprised the financial benefit of not maintaining a catalog of past NTHs hasn't come up, but I also know how underwear tends to bunch when Chris dares to suggest he's here to make a profit. If there's an old model advertised on the NTH site in the archives and someone decides they like that more than a current model, they'll go hunt the older model down on the secondhand market, sending no money to NTH or its retail partners. If they've heard of NTH and like the design, specs, whatever, is it not in the company's best interest to promote only the products they can make money on? A company exists to make money. Most, if not all decisions, should be focused on "will this make us more money?"


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Just to hammer one point in the "rant" above, in case it was lost in all that...

I get people pissing in my ear because they found a sold-out watch on our site, but they can't buy it. That's like, every week. Every week, some guy gets his shorts in a knot because he found a watch he likes on our site, but it's sold out.

I also get guys pissing in my ear because we DON'T maintain the visibility of some sold out models. Here we are, two guys brow-beating me about it, refusing to accept why we don't do it, raising and re-raising the issue with me, in just the last two weeks.

So, on average, every week, I get a complaint from some guy who tells me I should NOT show him a watch if he can't buy it, and a complaint from a different guy, who tells me that even though he can't buy the watch new, from us or any of our retailers, I should STILL show him the watch, because, reasons.

And people wonder why I rant...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sussa said:


> I'm surprised the financial benefit of not maintaining a catalog of past NTHs hasn't come up, but I also know how underwear tends to bunch when Chris dares to suggest he's here to make a profit. If there's an old model advertised on the NTH site in the archives and someone decides they like that more than a current model, they'll go hunt the older model down on the secondhand market, sending no money to NTH or its retail partners. If they've heard of NTH and like the design, specs, whatever, is it not in the company's best interest to promote only the products they can make money on? A company exists to make money. Most, if not all decisions, should be focused on "will this make us more money?"


This guy gets it.

Ford doesn't sell more 2020 Mustangs by showing you how awesome the 2016 Mustang was. J.Crew isn't selling any more pre-faded jeans by showing you the acid-washed stuff they sold in the early '90's.

Kenneth Cole isn't concerned with how many laces they sell because someone buys a discontinued shoe model on Zappos.com.

Trust me, I know what I'm doing here. If I'm doing something, there's a reason why. If I'm not doing something, there's a reason why not.

Arguing with me about it is only going to get you a WOT, and no change in my position.

Let me do my thing, the way I do it. My thing seems to be working quite nicely, thank you very much.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

RuggerAl said:


> Upon further consideration/reflection, one must ask- are you living your best WIS life?


I know this is rhetorical and tongue in cheek, but you asked for consideration/reflection, so...

Yes, I am living my best WIS life. For me, that includes a smaller collection than some, larger than others, but for me the right size is in the 6-10 watches range.

Through the typical noob WIS phase of "buy all the watches!", I narrowed down my preferences -- size, style, price range -- and yes, collection size. To that end, the watches I have now very much reflect where I want to be: sport/GADA/tool with more emphasis on mid-range (size) field watches than divers and prices favoring $200-300, with about as many <$200 as >$300

I get anxious with too many watches. They are meant to be worn.* And with too many, others are being neglected. Which makes for favorites (keepers) and not (soon to be flipped).

I'm also at a point where I'd like to be content with what I have and very much limit purchases (WPAC, anyone...?).

So yes, it is an _examined_ WIS life, a conscious WIS life, a woke WIS life I lead.

*OK, look, I get it -- some like to collect watches like my buddies like to collect matchbox cars: they got multiple not-small bins full of them, most still in packaging. If they are not up to 1000+, I would actually be surprised. Multiples of different modes with different colorways, and even some duplicates. And that's fine. Good for them. That is their best WIS life and I'm not criticizing either their collection or the philosophy behind it. I'm gonna WIS my own way and for my own reasons, leave others to theirs.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Ugh...
> 
> You found the watch you wanted through other avenues? Awesome. Then you bought a torch and a bracelet from us? More awesome.
> 
> ...


I gave up reading this and my mind drifted back to this.......


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Fun podcast I did with "Self Made Strategies". Listen or download here - https://selfmadestrategies.com/049-...under-of-nth-watches-and-founder-of-lew-huey/


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

So you know those "word cloud" things? I think that's what you call the things that show the frequency of words used by making the common words larger. I wonder if one can be made from all the pages of this thread.

Any guesses on what the largest words would be? After "NTH" and "subs" and "watch"

I bet "business" would be prominent.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

The oyster experiment was short lived. I have a good feeling about this one. And it allows the NTHwa and Geckota to settle nicely into separate lanes.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

3WR said:


> So you know those "word cloud" things? I think that's what you call the things that show the frequency of words used by making the common words larger. I wonder if one can be made from all the pages of this thread.
> 
> Any guesses on what the largest words would be? After "NTH" and "subs" and "watch"
> 
> ...


I know "piss in my ear" has been very prominent lately. Priceless!


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

3WR said:


> So you know those "word cloud" things? I think that's what you call the things that show the frequency of words used by making the common words larger. I wonder if one can be made from all the pages of this thread.
> 
> Any guesses on what the largest words would be? After "NTH" and "subs" and "watch"
> 
> ...


Phantom no date......?


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Who’s Jennifer?


----------



## Ric Capucho (Oct 5, 2012)

dmjonez said:


> Who's Jennifer?


We don't talk about her anymore. For the best.

Ric


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Have to include “beads of poop”. My horological vocabulary is forever changed.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Back in the day, Rolex, Seiko, and others did GMT with a 24hr hand slaved to the 12hr hand (I.e. not adjustable) and a 24hr bezel. Which seemed to work just fine for people in an era when timekeeping via wristwatch was arguably more important than it is now. "Only" tracked two separate timezones, the regular time with 24hr time displayed and a second timezone via the 24hr bezel, but there ya go. Then Rolex went and messed everything up with their Master II GMT function...
> 
> You can still get a Vostok with the same slaved 24hr hand with 24hr bezel functionality for less than $100. If someone was making pretty much an exact homage of the Seiko 6117-8000, I'd be there.
> 
> ...


If you really want to go old school, the Airman "Noon" has no GMT hand at all. They modified the 2893-2 to run at 24 hours, just like the originals, which technically solves the "Caller vs. Flyer" issue. Hand for local, bezel for home or the second time zone.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> So...just spoke to my watchmaker about it all...
> 
> There's nothing in the mechanism which would seem likely to cause damage, either by advancing the date, or by rolling the time backwards, when the automatic date change mechanism was engaged.
> 
> ...


The CYA thing definitely wouldn't surprise me. I'll keep doing it anyway though, similar to how I shuffle start my ETA-2824 watches even though that's probably equally unnecessary. No reason to risk angering the watch Gods.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Doc. You should put serial numbers on all your component parts, so we can be forever certain of provenance. Oh. And a slip of paper with genealogical info about who operated the machines, who did assembly, and who did qc and packaging and and and


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Doc. You should put serial numbers on all your component parts, so we can be forever certain of provenance. Oh. And a slip of paper with genealogical info about who operated the machines, who did assembly, and who did qc and packaging and and and
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You misspelled "cereal", I'm sure, because tricks are for kids...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

TGIF









Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'd be curious what guys here in F71 would make of this.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'd be curious what guys here in F71 would make of this.
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


My take is that he'd have to be flexing the bracelet in a really odd way to get those marks. The links have to rotate through more than 90 degrees to touch the SELs. He needs to stop doing whatever he's doing.....


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

docvail said:


> I'd be curious what guys here in F71 would make of this.
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Pass, cannot open the tapacrap app


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Gilty NTH goodness.......



















Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

yankeexpress said:


> Pass, cannot open the tapacrap app


F2: "Bracelet on latest Seamaster is marking up end links."
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=5113403

Try that.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

I've had that happen with watches on a bracelet before and it came from consistently laying the watch flat when taking it off overnight. I am kind of surprised there is that much flex in that bracelet to cause that though. There is not on my 2254, nor was there with an older "Bond" SMP I had a while back with the bracelet similar to that newer one shown.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> My take is that he'd have to be flexing the bracelet in a really odd way to get those marks. The links have to rotate through more than 90 degrees to touch the SELs. He needs to stop doing whatever he's doing.....


Okay. But that raises questions.

Should the manufacturer ensure the product design and/or the execution in production/assembly is such that the product won't be damaged under normal circumstances?

If that damage is happening whenever the watch is laid flat, or the link is allowed to rotate beyond parallel, is that a "defect"? Or is it okay for the manufacturer to say to the customer, "don't do that, not our problem"?

What constitutes reasonable in this situation? Is it reasonable for the customer to think the links shouldn't rub against each other, or that damage wouldn't be caused by way of such inadvertent use? Should the customer have known not to let the bracelet flex that way? How would the customer have known that?

I've had to replace bracelets for less problematic reasons or issues, like the first link getting hung up on the underside of the end-link (something that would never happen when on the wrist), or just not pivoting smoothly, because the connecting pin had a very slight bend in it. No damage was caused in those cases. It was just an annoyance for the customer.

I imagine if I'd spent the money to buy a new Seamaster, I'd be put out if I was told the bracelet's design or assembly was such that it could damage itself under what seems like "normal" use, rather than abuse.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

I am of the mind that for kind of $$ it should not do that and I'd be pursuing the issue with Omega if I were that owner.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Mo gilty goodness.


----------



## fx2243 (Jun 12, 2017)

Rice and Gravy said:


> I've had that happen with watches on a bracelet before and it came from consistently laying the watch flat when taking it off overnight. I am kind of surprised there is that much flex in that bracelet to cause that though. There is not on my 2254, nor was there with an older "Bond" SMP I had a while back with the bracelet similar to that newer one shown.


I've just replied to that thread after Doc posted it here.

The difference between this bracelet and the older ones is the female endlink, it can be folded back until the middle of the first link can touch the endlink...another valid reason for Doc to resist using the female endlinks!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I don't see it as a manufacturer issue, I see it as a customer use/perception issue. 

There are all kinds of ways bracelets can sustain marks in use just as a matter of the way they are designed. Sometimes, I note that if I am not paying attention, I put regular marks in the flip lock of nearly every bracelet I ever own because I'm trying to close the clasp with the flip lock in the way. 

With Sinn H-link bracelets for the 556 (and maybe others), where the flip-lock comes in contact with the bracelet link when open and flopping around, it may leave a mark similar to what is shown on that Omega... and at least one person commenting on the issue said he would not buy a Sinn with H-link as a result. Fair enough, but when I looked at my bracelet, sure enough it had a similar mark, and... just didn't bother me. Not considering how much I liked the fit of the bracelet and other marks I put on the bracelet with just regular use. 

I just picked up a Ti Momentum bracelet for my Atlas, and was wondering why there was protective plastic over the hinge internal to the clasp. I took it off, wore it, handled it, and even in just a day's wear/use, it had developed a scratch in the matte finish on the inside of the bracelet where the clasp hing contacts the links. 

*shrug* 

I don't think that's a new bracelet design for Omega, is it? If it was any kind of real issue that many customers of Omega was concerned about, they probably would already have addressed it...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rice and Gravy said:


> I've had that happen with watches on a bracelet before and it came from consistently laying the watch flat when taking it off overnight. I am kind of surprised there is that much flex in that bracelet to cause that though. There is not on my 2254, nor was there with an older "Bond" SMP I had a while back with the bracelet similar to that newer one shown.


I don't have any axe to grind. I really am just curious how people see it.

Is "laying the bracelet flat" something we're all supposed to know not to do, because it may cause damage? I've never heard of that.

Is that rub mark something most WIS would just accept as "normal wear and tear", or would most say it's the result of faulty assembly, and that shouldn't happen?

The links on the new Subs' bracelet pivot enough to fold back over the links on either side, but I don't think their edges would rub against the links on either side, such that damage would be caused just by way of the links rotating through their allowable range of motion.

I would really love to know how Omega would approach this. I don't think that should happen. I think my customers would want us to sort it out. We would probably replace the bracelet, if we couldn't sort it out by just replacing the affected links.

If all of the bracelets from that production do that, I'd say it's a design flaw, but customers will probably have to live with it. If it's a rare thing, then I'd say it's an assembly error, and they should replace at least that link, if not the whole bracelet.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## fx2243 (Jun 12, 2017)

docvail said:


> I don't have any axe to grind. I really am just curious how people see it.
> 
> If all of the bracelets from that production do that, I'd say it's a design flaw, but customers will probably have to live with it. If it's a rare thing, then I'd say it's an assembly error, and they should replace at least that link, if not the whole bracelet.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I'd guess all the bracelets do it, so it's a design flaw. I hadn't noticed mine until I had a look at that thread.

It doesn't bother me though as I think marks are just a natural part of wearing a watch, although I appreciate some people would find it impossible to live with.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I don't see it as a manufacturer issue, I see it as a customer use/perception issue.
> 
> There are all kinds of ways bracelets can sustain marks in use just as a matter of the way they are designed. Sometimes, I note that if I am not paying attention, I put regular marks in the flip lock of nearly every bracelet I ever own because I'm trying to close the clasp with the flip lock in the way.
> 
> ...


"Normal signs of wear" don't really bother me.

Marks left on the clasp because I wasn't paying attention when I tried to close it are on me, not the manufacturer.

But I think this thing with the Omega would bother me, because it's unavoidable, as a result of either the design, or the assembly. One or the other is "wrong", in my mind.

Even with a female end-link, I'd think that the dimensions of all the moving and fixed parts could be worked out in design/engineering such that this wouldn't happen. At the very least, they could have spotted it in sampling, or QC.

If we were looking at a <$1000 watch from a micro, and every bracelet did that, I could understand it. They may not have caught it early enough to sort it out before mass production. But with Omega, I don't think I could accept it.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## CMA22inc (Mar 7, 2014)

On a watch at that price point I would consider that a design deficiency.

My guess would be that because it is a female end-link and the connecting link that is making the mark has a less than perfect edge so it cuts into its neighbor.

The whole situation rubs me the wrong way.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

CMA22inc said:


> The whole situation rubs me the wrong way.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Okay. But that raises questions.
> 
> Should the manufacturer ensure the product design and/or the execution in production/assembly is such that the product won't be damaged under normal circumstances?
> 
> ...


 Dunno know Doc, but bracelets do get marked through wear, take the clasp and where it's underside contacts with the top of the links, that gets marked up doesn't it? My helson, with proper female SELs, gets marks. I don't worry about it.....

......my NTH Näcken Modern Black has one SEL that's ever so slightly proud of the case, you can feel it, but not see it. I'm not going to complain about it.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

docvail said:


> I'd be curious what guys here in F71 would make of this.
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


The helson shark diver bracelet does that. It marks on the first center link, and it did bother me slightly. Mainly because it seemed like it could have been avoidable, or at least reduced, by a simple design choice. Rounding the sharp center edge of the endlink would have done the trick - which imho would have been aesthetically more pleasing as well.

Not a big issue, but it bothered me because it seemed unnecessary in terms of design.

Edit: added picture (not mine) for clarification. You can see Helson themselves are aware of it also, since they put a blue plastic specifically over the affected link when new ?

That endlink edge could have been rounded more, and by consequence leave enough gap for the centerlink to not touch the endlink when sitting flat.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

fx2243 said:


> I've just replied to that thread after Doc posted it here.
> 
> The difference between this bracelet and the older ones is the female endlink, it can be folded back until the middle of the first link can touch the endlink...another valid reason for Doc to resist using the female endlinks!


Hmmm, that does seem to be a bit of a design flaw, the flex required isn't as pronounced as I expected. Would have thought that the underside of the SELs would have a rounded finish to prevent that.....


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

My Helson has some marks, doesn't bother me as they are so faint......










Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Hornet99 said:


> My Helson has some marks, doesn't bother me as they are so faint......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That seems still OK. Mine had a pretty prominent line across both center links after some time, which I guess will be the case for yours as well after a year or so. I mean it is nothing to get worked up about, but my designer mind gets triggered with these kind of small but unnessecary flaws. But honestly nothing else but only one other minor thing I could nitpick over with that watch, its a pretty great design overall.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> F2: "Bracelet on latest Seamaster is marking up end links."
> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=5113403
> 
> Try that.


Normal wear-and-tear. Not eligible for any kind of free-fix, imo - we have the same thing on many many watches where the clasp meeds the bracelet endlinks - very often there are marks on the contact points. It's just the way things are.

Ofc a re-designed bracelet that doesn't do this would be nice to have.


----------



## fx2243 (Jun 12, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Normal wear-and-tear. Not eligible for any kind of free-fix, imo - we have the same thing on many many watches where the clasp meeds the bracelet endlinks - very often there are marks on the contact points. It's just the way things are.
> 
> Ofc a re-designed bracelet that doesn't do this would be nice to have.


I agree, I've just had a look at 3 watches at different price points to compare.

SARB033 - Female endlinks - no marks
CW C65 GMT - Male endlinks - light marks
Seamaster - Female endlinks - light marks

Despite the fact it is universally panned, the SARB has the best bracelet!! (If marked endlinks bother you, that is)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Interesting...

My take:

1. Marks on the bracelet from rubbing against the clasp - normal, to be expected, particularly if the link is attached to one of the micro-adjustments, bringing more of the link into contact with more of the clasp. You should expect the links by the clasp to be marked up, just as the clasp will be from "desk diving". Company owes you nothing.

2. Marks on the clasp or bracelet from "desk diving" - seriously? Get out of here. Not even going to discuss that as something "wrong" from the manufacturer. Clearly, it isn't.

3. Marks on the bracelet from rubbing against the end-link - Hmmmmm...I would have bet A LOT of money that most WIS would say that is not okay, in general, and the more you pay for the watch, the less okay it is. I'm surprised how many guys are willing to just accept that.

I remember replacing at least one, maybe two or three Subs bracelets because the first link next to the end-link didn't pivot smoothly, or wasn't perfectly straight, or rubbed on the lugs. It never even crossed my mind to tell the customers complaining to just live with it.

There was a guy with a Tropics, and the first link next to the end-link would get hung up *under* the end-link, when he pulled the bracelet under the watch. It seems that the one side of the little slot for accessing the spring bar had a bit of a lip on it, and the other link was getting caught on that lip.

That one, I did think about telling the guy to get lost, because the bracelet would never be in that position on the wrist, or when stored on a pillow in a case or winder. And who gives a crap if the bracelet gets hung up on the end-link when you pull the bracelet under the watch, across the caseback? But, the watch was sold through one of our retailers, and I didn't feel like fighting about it, so I replaced the end-link for the guy. To this day, I think I should have told him he was nuts.

If you guys are telling me that this is common or normal for female end-links, then, without a doubt, 100%, we'll never use a female end-link.

We shipped the first batch of Subs to have the new bracelet before we realized the half-links and links by the clasp weren't designed correctly. The full-size links didn't have enough room to pivot freely when connected to the clasp-links, so you had to leave the half-links in place, rendering their removability pointless. We replaced 6 links on every one of those bracelets. 

It seems to me that the Omega's bracelet likewise has a design flaw (or that one was assembled or machined poorly), this shouldn't happen, and they ought to replace one or both links so that it doesn't happen any more.

But, that's just me. I'm sure "Omega" knows better than I do.


----------



## larand (May 15, 2017)

There's a discussion over here which might be of interest to the folks in this thread:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/seriously-timefactors-5113937.html


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Interesting...
> 
> My take:
> 
> ...


Stiff or sticky links usually loosen up with wear/time, so seen that before and not got hung up about it......


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

As long as there's no metal shavings falling out during the wear/time process.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> As long as there's no metal shavings falling out during the wear/time process.


Metal shavings? The force required to shave metal off is significantly more than you could ever generate by contact during normal use. All that's happening is the microscopic surface finish is being affected.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

Reminds me a little bit of my Damasko bracelet. Though ice-hardened like the case itself and not prone to being scuff/scratched by most materials, each link is obviously just as hard as every other link. So there's a decent bit of shine in several spots where the bracelet has brushed against itself over the years.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> Interesting...
> 
> But, that's just me. I'm sure "Omega" knows better than I do.


A'ight:

Maybe if it were my watch, for which I'd paid more than 3 times what I've ever paid for a watch and more than 8 times the most expensive watch I currently own, I might be a bit miffed about it.

Especially if I was of a kind who keeps the rest of the watch in otherwise flawless condition, which certainly appears to be the case, examining the rest of the bracelet and case in those photos.

Or if this was a new issue due to a revision in Omega's bracelet design on a new model or line of watches -- could just be a design/manufacturing oversight -- I might expect Omega to rectify the situation.

But there's a lot of variables in play. Maybe I am wealthy and have a bunch of watches, and that one in particular is not the star of my collection, but pretty much a beater. Maybe I don't have time in my life to be concerned about a detail like that. Maybe I recognize that with the wear I will eventually put on the watch, it is just not that important.

Maybe I just don't handle my watch in a way where this is at all an issue... There were others in the thread reporting no issue with their watches...

But OK, it's an issue in my life that I want to address. I would bring the watch back to the AD or contact Omega directly, asking them for some kind of solution. If they decided to send me a whole, revised bracelet? Awesome! Return for repair with revised parts? Awesome! If they decided to send me new, replacement endlinks without addressing the underlying issue? Uh, OK, would keep those with the original kit and wear with marks, as-is.

If they did nothing, basically told me to go pound sand? I would definitely whinge about it online for all I was worth. Duh. (Actually, no, I'd shrug it off and live with it.)

But basically, at the price paid for an Omega and considering their brand value, I would fully expect them to make right by the situation, one way or another.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Nazario Azzurro on bracelet today.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> A'ight:
> 
> Maybe if it were my watch, for which I'd paid more than 3 times what I've ever paid for a watch and more than 8 times the most expensive watch I currently own, I might be a bit miffed about it.
> 
> ...


It's not even the damage being caused that gets under my skin. I suppose it's the "principle".

If I damage my watch through normal use, I can live with it. Desk diving marks don't bother me at all.

But something like that, on an Omega, just makes all my mental gears come to a screeching halt, because the cause seems preventable in design/production, yet the result seems unavoidable after the fact, simply through use most of us would probably think of as "normal".

That's the part that gets me. Just using the watch normally, as intended, that mark is going to be made. It's not like the guy who owns it was doing something crazy with it, or complaining about something that you'd only notice if you did something other-than-normal (like the guy complaining that the link on his Tropics got hung up on the end-link when he pulled the bracelet under the case).

Mild/mini-rant - there really is no justice in the universe. I can't believe how many guys would accept this on an Omega, compared to how many guys rip into me for the most microscopic imperfections on an NTH.


----------



## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

I'm not really sure how this would be prevented without some other kind of big trade-off. Having a well articulated high tolerance bracelet is extremely comfortable, are we railing on Omega because you can articulate it into itself? What? I'm not sure what the fix is that doesn't involve either lowering tolerances and ending up with a bracelet that has so much flex that it's inappropriate for the price range or redesigning it so the end link and first link have limited articulation (which would create a spot of high stress and wear).

Each bracelet design will have inherent trade-offs, but complaining about rather normal wear, or marks stemming from negligent or uninformed operation is like, well I don't know what it's like, I can't think of a good analogy since moving parts wear down over time from operation. 

If you don't want weird marks or premature bracelet wear, make sure it's clean and no dirt/skin cheese builds up. Make sure you're not flopping it around unnecessarily (I'm imagining 'Surprised Pikachu Face' when people flop links into each other and see it leaves a mark). If you don't want marks on your caseback don't rest your watch dial up with the bracelet/clasp contacting the caseback.

I think it's worth exploring "what's a design flaw" vs. "people not knowing proper etiquette". Bracelet care is one of those things that watch people just don't know much about, and with many unfulfilled expectations, a lot of that can be mitigated through education. Example: If you size your bracelet and the screws keep backing out it seems like a faulty bracelet and your expectation is that the screws should not back out (cue yelling at watch brand). The correct answer, is that screws need to have a fresh application of loctite applied every time they're reinstalled.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'd disagree that a well-articulated bracelet means having to live with the links rubbing against each other, such that marks are left.

The NTH Subs bracelet is fully articulated. The links can be folded back on top of each other. But they don't rub against each other, to the point that marks are left.

I'd also disagree that the wear marks are due to negligence on the part of the owner. The watch in the thread on f2 is a fairly recent purchase, it seems. 

My opinion - for whatever it's worth - is that the rubbing is either a design flaw, or a flaw in the construction of that one bracelet. Just as it was a design flaw when the half-links and clasp links in our bracelets were designed/made incorrectly, and just as it was a flaw in construction when a connecting pin has a bend in it, causing the link to not sit parallel to the one to which it's connected.

If every bracelet for every SMP from that production has the same issue, I'd call it a design flaw. If it's just that one bracelet, my hunch is that first link is out of spec, or the connecting pin is slightly out of place, but one way or the other, there's a flaw in construction, causing the link to rub against the end-link, when it shouldn't.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> ...Just using the watch normally, as intended, that mark is going to be made. It's not like the guy who owns it was doing something crazy with it, or complaining about something that you'd only notice if you did something other-than-normal (like the guy complaining that the link on his Tropics got hung up on the end-link when he pulled the bracelet under the case).
> 
> Mild/mini-rant - there really is no justice in the universe. I can't believe how many guys would accept this on an Omega, compared to how many guys rip into me for the most microscopic imperfections on an NTH.


I guess that's not what's clear to me in this example -- is this owner doing something other-than-normal or not? My opinion is based on the user doing something other than normal -- other than normal for most users, maybe perfectly normal for him, but an outlier example of how most use and handle their watches. How big a problem is this -- one user? a handful? 5%? more...?


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Hey, just for the fun of it, here's an NTH being worn today:


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

I owned one very briefly and it had those marks. I don't recall doing anything particularly unusual to it. If it had to do with primarily with articulation -- rather than endlink design -- wouldn't we expect to see it on other areas of the bracelet rather than the exact same spot on both endlinks?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> I guess that's not what's clear to me in this example -- is this owner doing something other-than-normal or not? My opinion is based on the user doing something other than normal -- other than normal for most users, maybe perfectly normal for him, but an outlier example of how most use and handle their watches. How big a problem is this -- one user? a handful? 5%? more...?


If the damage is going to happen any time that first link on the bracelet extends past parallel, which I'd say is pretty "normal", as it could happen just laying the watch down, then I'd say it shouldn't happen, and it's a problem, no matter how many guys are willing to overlook it. It would bother me if I owned that watch, and it would bother me if I *MADE* that watch.

If the "problem" is only going to happen if you do something that is a little unusual, and/or if there's no damage caused as a result, then I'd say it's kosher, and no one should get their pants in a twist about it.

So, while a bracelet might get pushed under the case when you lay a watch down, if the only "problem" is that the first link is getting hung up on the little spring-bar-access slot on the back of the end-link, but otherwise, no damage is happening, I don't think that's something the company should be pressured to fix (even though, I was pressured, and I did fix it).

Likewise, if you're damaging a watch doing something which is "possible" to do, but not something you "should" do, that's on you. I can't think of any example with a bracelet, but I vaguely remember dealing with a guy who broke his Riccardo because he kept trying to reset the seconds hand without stopping it first. When I told him how to operate the chrono correctly, he gave me some spiel about being a mechanical engineer, and knowing how it *should* work, and flat out rejected my explanation of how it *actually* worked.

Some guys just can't get out of their own way, it seems.


----------



## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

docvail said:


> I'd disagree that a well-articulated bracelet means having to live with the links rubbing against each other such that marks are left.
> 
> The NTH Subs bracelet is fully articulated. The links can be folded back on top of each other. But they don't rub against each other, to the point that marks are left.
> 
> ...


Fully articulated links touch each other, just in a different way. They also have a much larger tolerance than Omega bracelets - no matter how you mince it Omega makes a technically higher grade bracelet. Rolex links aren't fully articulated, they'll touch each other if you want them to - and you know what? They make some of the finest bracelets in the industry (from a technical standpoint not a fanboy standpoint). The push for higher tolerance and solid bracelets is a relatively recent thing. And with it, comes new wear patterns and ways to care for your bracelet.

If you want to draw the conversation to wear induced by damage (your bent pin example) that kind of throws the entire argument out since damaged parts don't follow uniform wear patterns. Bracelets are not immune to wear. Steel that moves, will wear. Do I think some bracelets out there have design flaws? Absolutely. I also do think the general watch population is woefully uninformed on how to properly care for a bracelet (but that's also because knowledge isn't really disseminated).

When I interned at Rolex I saw tons of people come in absolutely irate that their bracelet wasn't working. These are people who would change pins themselves, bend them, then let the damage accumulate. One guy bent his clasp because something wasn't seated properly and his entire gold clasp was now junk.

When I see that a large majority of people with screw pin bracelets don't understand they need heat to break loctite and loctite after each re-installation of a screw pin - speaks to me of the level that bracelet knowledge is at - which is foundational to non-existent.

It's only after we've done our best to educate consumers and enthusiasts on PROPER care and SOP do we get to look for defects or damage. Or, we can just do it the other way around and watch the same mistakes get made over and over, watch the same damage repeat itself over and over.

Educating the enthusiast on how to use and break loctite, crimp collars for pins and collars, balance a bracelet, clean out skin cheese will not only make their end experience with their watch & bracelet more enjoyable but it will also alleviate pressure and undue grief when these things go wrong.


----------



## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

So the BLUF on all this is NTH bracelets are better than Omegas.:think::-d:-!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

uvalaw2005 said:


> If it had to do with primarily with articulation -- rather than endlink design -- wouldn't we expect to see it on other areas of the bracelet rather than the exact same spot on both endlinks?


Exactly, and yes.

It's not about the articulation. It's a clearance issue. There isn't enough of it.

Unless that guy who started that thread bought that watch from you, I'd say it's looking like Omega's bracelet vendor $hlt the bed on them, and they're probably all like that.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

On the other hand, if endlink design A is prone to scratching when bracelet is laid flat (common thing, imo) and endlink design B doesn't do that, I would definitely prefer to get B instead of A.

It might be one of those things that becomes more irritating/important when the issue actually happens to *your* watch.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> If the damage is going to happen any time that first link on the bracelet extends past parallel, which I'd say is pretty "normal", as it could happen just laying the watch down, then I'd say it shouldn't happen, and it's a problem,


Agreed.



docvail said:


> If the "problem" is only going to happen if you do something that is a little unusual, and/or if there's no damage caused as a result, then I'd say it's kosher, and no one should get their pants in a twist about it.


Same page.

And since there's actually more than one example -- both in that other thread and as uvalaw2005 posted above -- I'd say it's a real issue Omega should actually address.

But I do wonder if it as something to do with the finish on that center link that we can't see from the photos provided. Like a rough edge, flat surface, or what? Because I just checked -- the NTH bracelet will fold back on itself to the point that the first center link contacts the endlink in a like manner, but it's obviously not an issue with NTH watches, no marks left by the rounded, finished surface of the first center link.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

crappysurfer said:


> Fully articulated links touch each other, just in a different way.


If by "different way", you mean "they don't rub against each other, leaving marks", then, yes, I'd agree, and I'd think that's preferable to rubbing against each other, and leaving marks, but that's just me, perhaps.



crappysurfer said:


> They also have a much larger tolerance than Omega bracelets - no matter how you mince it Omega makes a technically higher grade bracelet.


I'm sorry, but are you referring to *our* tolerances in comparison to Omegas? That implies you know our tolerances, and Omega's. Care to provide some numbers?

The tolerances on our bracelets are fairly tight. Did you mean to suggest they aren't? That's a comment related to our quality.

As the owner of a microbrand, wading into this discussion, making those sorts of implications, doesn't seem advisable, but you do you, Nick.



crappysurfer said:


> Rolex links aren't fully articulated, they'll touch each other if you want them to - and you know what? They make some of the finest bracelets in the industry (from a technical standpoint not a fanboy standpoint). The push for higher tolerance and solid bracelets is a relatively recent thing. And with it, comes new wear patterns and ways to care for your bracelet.


Bringing up Rolex seems like a straw-man argument to "prove" a spurious point about needing to do something special just to keep your Omega bracelet from damaging itself.

Honestly, it seems like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing with me, given some of our past exchanges.



crappysurfer said:


> If you want to draw the conversation to wear induced by damage (your bent pin example) that kind of throws the entire argument out since damaged parts don't follow uniform wear patterns.


I don't want to draw the conversation anywhere, other than to a close, but I doubt that will happen now.

The bent pin example was in fact not about "damage" induced by the owner. It was about a bracelet we shipped with a bent connecting pin, causing the links to rub against the lugs. It was clearly a flaw in construction, one which we took ownership of, by replacing the bracelet for the customer.

I don't see how it throws any part of the argument out, much less the entire argument.



crappysurfer said:


> Bracelets are not immune to wear.


Wear from contact with other objects? Agreed.



crappysurfer said:


> Steel that moves, will wear.


Uhm....that seems a bit vague. Someone with a steel bracelet should expect that it will show signs of wear, even when virtually new, simply because it *moves*? Surely you can't mean that.

The Omega in that thread is a recent purchase. All the links move, and yet, only the end-link has that mark. How is it that all the other links, which move, have enough clearance between them to avoid showing those same marks, despite your mention of Omega's "tighter tolerances"?



crappysurfer said:


> Do I think some bracelets out there have design flaws? Absolutely.


But not this one? Or not this one, because the person who suggested as much was me, and we both know you've had this grudge since "watchmakerpalooza" early last year?



crappysurfer said:


> I also do think the general watch population is woefully uninformed on how to properly care for a bracelet (but that's also because knowledge isn't really disseminated).


So you're saying the guys hanging around this forum, where knowledge is apparently *NOT* disseminated, talking watches all day, are woefully uninformed?

I guess I'm woefully uninformed too, since I think it's a design or construction flaw, not the result of skin cheese, or something to that effect?



crappysurfer said:


> When I interned at Rolex I saw tons of people come in absolutely irate that their bracelet wasn't working. These are people who would change pins themselves, bend them, then let the damage accumulate. One guy bent his clasp because something wasn't seated properly and his entire gold clasp was now junk.


Got it. You encountered some people who did something stupid, and therefore, the guy with the marks on his Omega end-links is probably doing something stupid, too.



crappysurfer said:


> When I see that a large majority of people with screw pin bracelets don't understand they need heat to break loctite and loctite after each re-installation of a screw pin - speaks to me of the level that bracelet knowledge is at - which is foundational to non-existent.


Wait until you've sold 4,000-5,000 watches on bracelets, with screws in the links, before you claim a majority don't understand the use of loctite.

I've sold close to 5,000 watches on bracelets, with screws in the links. The rate of "guys who just don't get it" seems to be about 1 in 1,000.

Very far from a "majority" showing a "non-existent foundational level of bracelet knowledge".



crappysurfer said:


> It's only after we've done our best to educate consumers and enthusiasts on PROPER care and SOP do we get to look for defects or damage. Or, we can just do it the other way around and watch the same mistakes get made over and over, watch the same damage repeat itself over and over.


Wait...so, before a company admits that they produced a watch with a defect, the customer has to be educated on the "proper care" for the watch?

What if the watch was just defective, in the first place? What does it matter whether or not the customer knows how to do "proper care" if the watch is brand new, and yet, defective?



crappysurfer said:


> Educating the enthusiast on how to use and break loctite, crimp collars for pins and collars, balance a bracelet, clean out skin cheese will not only make their end experience with their watch & bracelet more enjoyable but it will also alleviate pressure and undue grief when these things go wrong.


None of that seems to be in any way related to why the Omega's links are rubbing on the end-links, but not against any of the others, but it's good to know you'll be focused on "educating the enthusiast" from now on, if it keeps you from starting arguments with other brand owners or customers.

And people say *I* show contempt for my customers....


----------



## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

Okay Chris.

Let me know when you make tutorials for people instead of opting for brow beating them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

crappysurfer said:


> Okay Chris.
> 
> Let me know when you make tutorials for people instead of opting for brow beating them.


I just tutored you, my friend.


----------



## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

docvail said:


> I just tutored you, my friend.


Ha. So when you have a person who has a bezel alignment issue you use them as a public example and dutifully educate them on what your tolerances are, right? I mean you've posted it here, we've seen your math and what you tell them. What makes educating people on bracelets any different?



docvail said:


> Wait until you've sold 4,000-5,000 watches on bracelets, with screws in the links, before you claim a majority don't understand the use of loctite.
> 
> I've sold close to 5,000 watches on bracelets, with screws in the links. The rate of "guys who just don't get it" seems to be about 1 in 1,000.


Wait until you've repaired 4,000-5,000 watches before you claim you know how bracelets wear out.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

crappysurfer said:


> Ha. So when you have a person who has a bezel alignment issue you use them as a public example and dutifully educate them on what your tolerances are, right? I mean you've posted it here, we've seen your math and what you tell them. What makes educating people on bracelets any different?
> 
> Wait until you've repaired 4,000-5,000 watches before you claim you know how bracelets wear out.


Nick...seriously, you're out on a limb here.

We had a public disagreement. It appears you're still sore over it, given your recent attempts to pick another fight with me.

You forget that before you launched your business, you sought me out, for my advice, which I gave to you. You forget that I went out of my way to help promote your brand, more than once. You forget that for several years, we had a professional relationship, what some might say was a friendship, one which benefited you on several occasions.

You can say what you like about me, and to me, but your words and actions speak for themselves. Picking a fight with me, publicly, especially here, is ill-advised. It's not going to win you any fans, nor cost me any.

What's ironic in all this is that the disagreement we had was entirely over nothing. You took umbrage not over something I actually said, but over what you seemed to have wished I'd said. It seemed like you were just looking for a reason to have a public falling out, and that discussion was enough, as plain vanilla as it was.

I haven't gone out of my way to engage with you publicly since then. Just the opposite, I've mostly avoided engaging with you, except to congratulate you when you sold out of the Calamity, following the review by Hodinkee. I've never criticized you or your brand, nor have I confronted you over any comments you've made publicly.

And yet, you seem determined to criticize me and my business, make little snide remarks, and confront me, and challenge whatever I say, against all reason.

You want to build your business, right? Don't we all. The best way to do that is to focus on your business, and talk to your customers, and engage in a positive way. Getting into pissing contests with other brand owners, store owners, etc, that's just shooting yourself in the foot.

Why would you want to go out of your way to make it clear to everyone that we don't get along? What does that gain you?

Take my advice. Don't keep going with this. Just go your own way, and leave me to mine.

I wish you nothing but success.


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

A lot of _other _business owners should take this advice at heart.

*You want to build your business, right? Don't we all. The best way to do that is to focus on your business, and talk to your customers, and engage in a positive way. Getting into pissing contests with other brand owners, store owners, etc, that's just shooting yourself in the foot.

Why would you want to go out of your way to make it clear to everyone that we don't get along? What does that gain you?

Take my advice. Don't keep going with this. Just go your own way, and leave me to mine. 
*


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Switched to the Ghost on a green Scurfa.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Switched to the Ghost on a green Scurfa.

View attachment 14809799


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

crappysurfer said:


> Wait until you've repaired 4,000-5,000 watches before you claim you know how bracelets wear out.


I'm confused. You've had 4000-5000 bracelets wear out? Jeez man, your brand is like, what, 3 years old?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Switched to the Ghost on a green Scurfa.
> 
> View attachment 14809799


Green and black is an underrated color combo, IMHO.


----------



## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

docvail said:


> Nick...seriously, you're out on a limb here.
> 
> We had a public disagreement. It appears you're still sore over it, given your recent attempts to pick another fight with me.
> 
> ...


Chris, I'll wait for apologies for things like telling me that "my success is because I'm riding a wave you created" or things like "why would you even service watches when you can't run a business" or "I run my company like a business and not a hobby." (I've got tons of examples)
For a while I understood you to be just the brash but well intentioned person most people suspect you to be. But as my success took its own form, you couldn't resist to peck away at me, remind me of my place ("Sounds like a noob problem"), and put me down in small (sometimes large) ("Looks like you've been struggling lately, you should read this book") and constant ways - it became a toxic and kind of abusive relationship. That public disagreement, where you also offended other brand owners by saying they have no business servicing watches and only 'an idiot would do that' was really the cherry on the top. As it stands, you are currently just another person on the internet, if you're spouting incorrect or falsehoods minced with truth, I'll occasionally try to correct that.

As far as the bracelets go, before it became personal, I see a lot of normal wear patterns that could be avoided by short educational talks - I don't see overarching design flaws. Seems unfair and not totally honest to help people find a way to avoid damaging their product and just writing it off as a design flaw, I'm not really into that. There's no contempt here, some people can't drive manual cars, if you teach them then they can - let them learn on their own, they'll more often than not damage a transmission or clutch. I'd love to list 20 ways to prevent wear and extend the life of your bracelet but I'm not sure if I'll be deemed someone trying to start a pissing contest.



JakeJD said:


> I'm confused. You've had 4000-5000 bracelets wear out? Jeez man, your brand is like, what, 3 years old?


No, I'm a watchmaker and have repaired lots of watches and their bracelets. You learn a thing or two when you not only make the product, but fix it for countless other people as well.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

crappysurfer said:


> Chris, I'll wait for apologies for things like telling me that "my success is because I'm riding a wave you created" or things like "why would you even service watches when you can't run a business" or "I run my company like a business and not a hobby." (I've got tons of examples)
> For a while I understood you to be just the brash but well intentioned person most people suspect you to be. But as my success took its own form, you couldn't resist to peck away at me, remind me of my place ("Sounds like a noob problem"), and put me down in small (sometimes large) ("Looks like you've been struggling lately, you should read this book") and constant ways - it became a toxic and kind of abusive relationship. That public disagreement, where you also offended other brand owners by saying they have no business servicing watches and only 'an idiot would do that' was really the cherry on the top. As it stands, you are currently just another person on the internet, if you're spouting incorrect or falsehoods minced with truth, I'll occasionally try to correct that.
> 
> As far as the bracelets go, before it became personal, I see a lot of normal wear patterns that could be avoided by short educational talks - I don't see overarching design flaws. Seems unfair and not totally honest to help people find a way to avoid damaging their product and just writing it off as a design flaw, I'm not really into that. There's no contempt here, some people can't drive manual cars, if you teach them then they can - let them learn on their own, they'll more often than not damage a transmission or clutch. I'd love to list 20 ways to prevent wear and extend the life of your bracelet but I'm not sure if I'll be deemed someone trying to start a pissing contest.
> ...


You have me on record saying those things?

Post screen shots, unedited.

I'll wait.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

For anyone on Facebook, with an interest in reading what I *actually* said that set Nick off, you can find the entire exchange here - https://www.facebook.com/groups/microbrandwatches/permalink/953318334792369/


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

docvail said:


> You have me on record saying those things?
> 
> Post screen shots, unedited.
> 
> I'll wait.


It looks like chat history gets deleted after a couple years, so some of them are gone. But here are some screen shots as requested. The thread you linked from MBW seems to have portions deleted or not quite the right one.





























And it was just a while of comments like this, I couldn't find the one where you were telling me that the Calamity was a mistake and the market wouldn't bear it and my pricing was all wrong - but that could've been on the phone.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Man, today has been some fun reading!


----------



## TgeekB (Nov 1, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> Man, today has been some fun reading!


You learn a lot about people by reading these threads.
I'm just getting into the micro brands market. Reading comments here I can tell you it has confirmed what I have read about certain people and how they treat their customers, which will influence where my money goes. It also confirms I don't think they understand this.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

TgeekB said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > Man, today has been some fun reading!
> ...


I've been lurking these forums pretty much since the beginning of my watch obsession... and I saw Docs posts before I ever knew he was the man behind the curtain of NTH. Sure, he's a crotchety ol' bastard who speaks his mind without regard to how some might react to it, but that's what I like about him.

Honestly, what blows my mind is I can like a guy from Philly.... I mean, I live in Dallas. We're supposed to be bitter enemies, right?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

crappysurfer said:


> It looks like chat history gets deleted after a couple years, so some of them are gone. But here are some screen shots as requested. The thread you linked from MBW seems to have portions deleted or not quite the right one.
> 
> View attachment 14809951
> View attachment 14809955
> ...


So...you edited the discussion. Got it.

Where to start?









You wanted to discuss the owners of another brand. You had some criticisms of them, which you wanted to relate to me, pursuant to your objection over my proposing to bring them into a close-knit circle of brand owners.

The conversation drifted to some other brands, and their owners' tendencies. You said one of them was "pretty magical at making people fall in love with him".

In response, I quipped, "I'm just in it for the money", confessing something I've confessed here many times - I'm running a business, not running for class president. It has to make money, because it has to support my family.

Didn't realize that would be a surprise, or offensive.









You had some choice comments for me, in a public discussion. We took that discussion private, wherein I said it seemed like you were going through a rough patch. It seemed that way to me, because you seemed to be exchanging angry words with others recently, not just me, and I think I recall seeing something about some setback you'd suffered, though I can't remember what it was.

Actually, I think I do remember - not long before that, you confided in me that one of your watchmaking school instructors had been a dlck, and you had difficulty passing some test he'd administered, or something to that effect. I empathized, having had similar experiences.

I recommended a good book, about dealing with life's changes and challenges. I've read it at least three times, and given it to others as a gift.

Sorry that offended you.









There was a public discussion of homages. Actually, it was about a microbrand ripping off a design from another microbrand. Several microbrand owners chimed in, noting the similarities.

It seemed like you were defending what that guy did, by calling it an "homage", in response to a comment I made. Once again, we took that discussion private. This is the unedited text of what I said to you:

















Yep. I admit it. We launched NTH in 2016, and made a big deal about how thin they were. You made a big deal about how thin the Calamity was. When did you make that? 2017? 2018? I remember giving you props for besting NTH in the thinness game. I did that, right here, in this thread.

This is also where I spoke up for you, and Orion, and the Calamity, when others said it was overpriced, and not good enough for what you were asking.

Every interaction we've ever had, I treated you with courtesy and respect. I went out of my way to help promote your brand and new models. When someone ran you down, I took up for you. And yet - I hear other microbrand owners telling me you're constantly running me down.

We didn't always agree. But when we quarreled publicly, I always tried to take the discussion private. In fact, we had a discussion about that, in which I said, no matter what, if we needed to clear the air, let's clear it, but do that privately, because bickering in public is bad for business.

And yet, you never stopped. You bickered with me, and other brand owners, and others in the industry, all in full view of the public. I tried to counsel restraint, but you wouldn't have it. John Keil is one of the nicest guys on the planet, and he told me if he ever saw you on the street, he'd knock your teeth out.

I tried to help you, publicly, and privately, several times. I was a friend to you, better than you ever were to me, clearly. When you made it clear you didn't want to be friends, I left you alone.

Mate, the problem isn't everyone else. And it ain't me. I'm not the one who's been stalking you around the forums and Facebook, trying to pick a fight. That's you.

Seriously, you need to focus on your own business, literally, and figuratively, and let me and mine be.


----------



## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

I really disagree about the courtesy and respect, Chris. And that's the thing, people have different barometers for it. I'm not the only one you've disrespected, but I may be one of the few that has spoken up. 

Also, I'm not sure other people would like to have their names dragged into this. Which is why I edited them out, they call it courtesy. 

Good thing I should avoid John Keil. I called him out for racist hate propaganda, I'm sure he's kind if you look past that, but resorting to violence after being told off (in a vulgar way I admit) doesn't seem very kind.


But you have not treated me with constant courtesy and respect, and your self awareness may be askew here, because there was a lot of talking down to me. But you're right, I do need to focus on my business because most definitely do not have as much free time as you to banter on the internet. 

Always willing to at least attempt reconciliation, and that goes for anyone.

And also, the bracelets, probably not a design flaw, which is what we're really talking about.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Chip and Sujain are close friends of mine. I know they wouldn't be upset knowing I took up for them when someone did them wrong. What was said about their experiences was already a matter of public record, having been discussed right here, in this forum.

If you were more of a regular here, you might have seen it.

I left out your criticisms of several other brand owners. Do you really want to get into a "who's got more character" contest with me?

Dude, I'm the one microbrand owner who has consistently spoken up for ALL microbrands, as a group. I don't run them down, not publicly, not privately. I gave my time and experience to many other brand owners - including you - because I was sincerely interested in seeing them gain success.

I have no idea when or why you decided I was your public enemy #1, nor will I lose any sleep thinking about it.

I could post a dozen links to threads I started to say GOOD things about other brands (including YOURS).

You just barged in here to say BAD things, about me, in front of many of my friends.

Whatever's weighing you down, seriously, I hope it gets lifted.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

crappysurfer said:


> .
> 
> No, I'm a watchmaker and have repaired lots of watches and their bracelets. You learn a thing or two when you not only make the product, but fix it for countless other people as well.


I'm still confused. You've repaired 4-5000 of _other_ manufacturers' bracelets, as a watchmaker? How long does it take to repair a bracelet? That seems like full-time work for 2 solid years, doing nothing else. Are you, like, 60? I seem to recall you're a young guy. This just seems highly implausible. Or are you, like, specialized in bracelets? I guess that could be a thing.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


> I'm still confused. You've repaired 4-5000 of _other_ manufacturers' bracelets, as a watchmaker? How long does it take to repair a bracelet? That seems like full-time work for 2 solid years, doing nothing else. Are you, like, 60? I seem to recall you're a young guy. This just seems highly implausible. Or are you, like, specialized in bracelets? I guess that could be a thing.


Jas - leave it alone. I know you're just jerking his chain, but I so don't want more drama swirling around me, my business, this thread, etc.

If he says he's repaired 4000-5000 bracelets, let's take it at face value. We can agree to disagree about whether or not the Omega's bracelet has a design flaw or if it's just a bad case of too much skin cheese.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

docvail said:


> Jas - leave it alone.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JakeJD said:


>


Someone has to be the adult in the room.

I'm as surprised as anyone it turned out to be me.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## wtma (Jul 26, 2014)

Pic break with one of the rarest Subs (at least in this thread), the Dolphin Magenta.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Soooo, the beads of poop fits the Speedy? 


Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> Soooo, the beads of poop fits the Speedy?
> 
> Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


Like a magnum condom fits a big Johnson.

Tight around the circumference, with no rattling.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

docvail said:


> Like a magnum condom fits a big Johnson.
> 
> Tight around the circumference, with no rattling.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Doc, can we get your opinion on the Eddie drama in the other thread?

Whats going on? or cant you say anything?

Edit, sorry im reading this thread backwards, seeing youve addressed some of your feelings on it.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Like a magnum condom fits a big Johnson.
> 
> Tight around the circumference, with no rattling.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.












Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cobia said:


> Doc, can we get your opinion on the Eddie drama in the other thread?
> 
> Whats going on? or cant you say anything?
> 
> Edit, sorry im reading this tread backwards, seeing youve addressed some of your feelings on it.


On the advice of legal counsel, no comment.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

docvail said:


> On the advice of legal counsel, no comment.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Fair enough, so from that we can presume you are currently looking at your legal avenues.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

I double thumb speed scrolled past most of that.

But this caught my attention. Nice.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Marendra (Mar 2, 2010)

captainmorbid said:


> Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


I think we can safely assume that this big Johnson didn't always wear a condom.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Speaking of thumbs, is there a way to type texts using a full keyboard? Because if those ultra dense texts were tapped out with just thumbs, color me impressed. And here I thought you were a middle aged dude. Middle aged dude with teenaged thumbs, apparently.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Speaking of thumbs, is there a way to type texts using a full keyboard? Because if those ultra dense texts were tapped out with just thumbs, color me impressed. And here I thought you were a middle aged dude. Middle aged dude with teenaged thumbs, apparently.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You do realize FB messenger isn't just a mobile app, right?

It's accessible via a browser. My guess is I banged that out on my laptop keyboard.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

What’d I miss?

If doc told jake to stfu, must’ve been something good


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> What'd I miss?
> 
> If doc told jake to stfu, must've been something good
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just another day in the circus.

The clowns were out in force.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You do realize FB messenger isn't just a mobile app, right?
> 
> It's accessible via a browser. My guess is I banged that out on my laptop keyboard.


No, I do not. I know FB isn't mobile only. Kind of shaky on the details of this messenger you speak of.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Marendra said:


> I think we can safely assume that this big Johnson didn't always wear a condom.


Some jokes...

like an onion.

..weird that my image search for "Magic Johnson drinks from a magnum" had limited success..

Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> No, I do not. I know FB isn't mobile only. Kind of shaky on the details of this messenger you speak of.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Meh. I've banged out some long posts using only my thumbs, on my mobile. It's not impossible that one was just me and muh thumbs. But the longer the post from me, the more likely it is I had access to a full keyboard.

My typing skills are on point.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

More gilty loveliness....



















And random pussy pic......










Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I have a previous version of the Seamaster and do have a hotspot from the clasp scratching the first link. Its a design flaw and cannot be avoided. I dont have to be "educated" on how to avoid this. Clasp is closed and watch is on my wrist, as I wear it, clasp edge and first link make a V and scratch itself. I also had some bracelets where the flip lock will scratch the first link when it folds back which is a design flaw in my opinion. There should be enough clearance. I also think Damasko bracelet where links scratch other links is a design flaw and I would never buy it. 
Just for fun, I am going to call Omega and see what they say about this. If it was not brought up here I would not have ever thought about it. Once someone brings up something like this on WUS and it goes "viral" watch nerds soak it up and it becomes a thing. All the little flaws that bug me about watches were embedded in my head from WUS. Some I can forgive others eat me alive.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Basically, the moral of the story is don’t sell a watch to anyone with a wus handle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



DuckaDiesel said:


> I have a previous version of the Seamaster and do have a hotspot from the clasp scratching the first link. Its a design flaw and cannot be avoided. I dont have to be "educated" on how to avoid this. Clasp is closed and watch is on my wrist, as I wear it, clasp edge and first link make a V and scratch itself. I also had some bracelets where the flip lock will scratch the first link when it folds back which is a design flaw in my opinion. There should be enough clearance. I also think Damasko bracelet where links scratch other links is a design flaw and I would never buy it.
> Just for fun, I am going to call Omega and see what they say about this. If it was not brought up here I would not have ever thought about it. Once someone brings up something like this on WUS and it goes "viral" watch nerds soak it up and it becomes a thing. All the little flaws that bug me about watches were embedded in my head from WUS. Some I can forgive others eat me alive.
> 
> 
> ...


Let us know if they invoke the "Skin Cheese" clause in your warranty.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Basically, the moral of the story is don't sell a watch to anyone with a wus handle
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LOL!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Seriously of *all* the things I've seen on WUS since joining, the pervasive willingness of WUS users to bring up "wrist cheese" or "skin cheese" among the years is probably the most confounding (and kinda disgusting).

Thankfully it's not an entirely common day-to-day discussion topic, but it does get brought up often enough


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Seriously of *all* the things I've seen on WUS since joining, the pervasive willingness of WUS users to bring up "wrist cheese" or "skin cheese" among the years is probably the most confounding (and kinda disgusting).
> 
> Thankfully it's not an entirely common day-to-day discussion topic, but it does get brought up often enough


Especially weird for those of us who've never suffered it........

......regular washing folks, that's the solution b-)


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Seriously of *all* the things I've seen on WUS since joining, the pervasive willingness of WUS users to bring up "wrist cheese" or "skin cheese" among the years is probably the most confounding (and kinda disgusting).
> 
> Thankfully it's not an entirely common day-to-day discussion topic, but it does get brought up often enough


So...just in the last few days of this thread, we've touched on the way some terms, topics or WIS complaints go viral very quickly.

I can't remember ever hearing the phrase "skin cheese" prior to the Doc's House Calls episode with Josh Flagg of Watch It All About. We just recorded that in November, two months ago. Since then, it seems like I've heard it a dozen times.

And yes, I agree with you, it's a disgusting idea I wish to stop hearing about.

But, now that we've admitted we're repulsed by the term, I'm certain it will be put into even more frequent use...

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Especially weird for those of us who've never suffered it........
> 
> ......regular washing folks, that's the solution b-)


The struggle is real!

Got this one back from a guy who said his crown was broken. Turns out there was just four years of nasty caked all over the watch and threads.

Thankfully, Dan has a good supply of hazmat gloves...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

huuuuuuurgh


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

That is f**king disgusting. People are gross.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> The struggle is real!
> 
> Got this one back from a guy who said his crown was broken. Turns out there was just four years of nasty caked all over the watch and threads.
> 
> ...


Oh dear lord.......

.......name and shame Doc, name and shame.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

That is freakin disgusting!


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

I built an 8926 for my dad maybe two years ago. Saw it over Xmas. It was cheesy. I cleaned it for him. I told him to stop being gross. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Matching your watch to your outfit? That's kid stuff.

Try matching both to your couch. That's WIS.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

X2-Elijah said:


> Seriously of *all* the things I've seen on WUS since joining, the pervasive willingness of WUS users to bring up "wrist cheese" or "skin cheese" among the years is probably the most confounding (and kinda disgusting).
> 
> Thankfully it's not an entirely common day-to-day discussion topic, but it does get brought up often enough


My wife made a 3 'cheese' mac & cheese for lunch today. It was sooooooo good! Glad I read this afterwards.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hornet99 said:


> Oh dear lord.......
> 
> .......name and shame Doc, name and shame.


True story -

The guy didn't buy the watch. He won it, in a giveaway, in 2015. And he's outside the USA, so there was international shipping and customs costs involved.

Very soon after shipping him the watch, I started to see the all-too-familiar signs of crazy.

He submitted a product review to the site. Most people who do that will keep it to 120 characters, give or take. You think I build some walls of text? You ain't seen nothing. This guy's product review was a novel.

Just the fact that he wrote a review of a watch he *won* seemed a little odd to me, and I would have hesitated to post it to the site, but with the length of it, there was no question I couldn't post it.

He emailed me a few days later, to ask why I didn't post it. I just told him that people reading it might not see it as unbiased, given that he won the watch, rather than bought it.

What's he do? He posts the entire review, verbatim, as a comment to a blog review of the watch.

Not too long after, maybe six months, he starts emailing me - multiple messages - with a laundry list of complaints / requests. First he said the bracelet and clasp scratched too easily. A few months later, he couldn't figure out how to swap the strap in place of the bracelet.

There were a few other odds and ends I'm forgetting, but it was always something nonsensical, and frequently with the appeal for a new strap, a new bracelet, or just a new watch. Every three to six months, he was emailing about something new.

At some point, the crown assembly breaks. Normally, this isn't a big deal. We'd fix it under warranty. He insisted I sent him a "lemon", and renewed his insistence that I should send him a brand new watch.

I had him send it back for repair. We repaired the crown, and returned it to him. I thought that would be the last I heard from him.

Nope. There was something else he wanted, or wanted to complain about, maybe a year later. By this time, the warranty was expired, and while I forget what he was complaining about, I remember it was something silly, like demanding a new strap, or buckle, because his was worn out. I told him the strap wearing out wasn't a warranty issue, and to buy one online.

Then, six months later, he emails to say the crown broke, again. He was adamant this time - we sent him a lemon, and he really thinks he deserves a new watch. This was *FOUR YEARS* after he won the watch, which had a *TWO YEAR* warranty.

I could have told him to get lost. But, for some reason, I decided we should fix it for him.

Ordinarily, before arranging a return for repair, we try to do some troubleshooting, or get pics, anything we can do to make sure we're not getting a watch back with nothing wrong with it. In this case, I didn't ask for pics, because of who I was dealing with. I just figured, he must have broken the crown, again, somehow.

So, I told him to send it back. And, if you read that note from Dan, and saw the pics, then you know, the crown wasn't broken, at all. He couldn't operate the crown because it was caked with dirt, grease, and God knows what else.

So, Dan cleaned it up, but this time, we charged him for the service - $90, all-in, including return shipping. I thought, for sure, since we're charging him, and he's paying the return shipping, this will be the last we hear from him.

Nope. Six months later, he emailed me again, saying the crown broke again, calling it a lemon, and demanding a new watch. He said he couldn't afford to return the watch to us and spend another $90, so the only solution was for us to send him a new one.

I don't even have that watch in stock any more. We sold out in 2016 or 2017.

This was a little more than a month ago. He won the watch in 2015. The crown broke once, and we fixed it, under warranty. He's emailed us at least a dozen times since 2015, to complain about all sorts of nonsensical things, always demanding a free replacement strap, buckle, or a whole new watch.

He couldn't (or simply wouldn't) understand reason, or why we wouldn't send him a new anything.

I had to tell him he was out of line, we wouldn't be providing further support, and asked him to stop contacting us.

I'm expecting him to email us again no later than May.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

Jeeze, I thought I was a slob. Well, I am, but that Acionna was way beyond gross. o|


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> True story -
> 
> The guy didn't buy the watch. He won it, in a giveaway, in 2015. And he's outside the USA, so there was international shipping and customs costs involved.
> 
> ...


Don't know how you keep sane......


----------



## fx2243 (Jun 12, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> Don't know how you keep sane......


There's only 2 sane threads on here, this one...and yours


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Matching your watch to your outfit? That's kid stuff.
> 
> Try matching both to your couch. That's WIS.
> 
> ...


Please tell me you have some black, textured throw pillows on that couch to match the strap. Either way, well done.

Curious, do you think upcoming tweaked Nacken Vintage Black could out-cool the blue?


----------



## Viseguy (Jul 1, 2018)

docvail said:


> True story -
> 
> The guy didn't buy the watch. He won it, in a giveaway, in 2015. &#8230; I'm expecting him to email us again no later than May.


Yikes! There's a screw loose there. Or too tight, one or the other. :roll:


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> Please tell me you have some black, textured throw pillows on that couch to match the strap. Either way, well done.
> 
> Curious, do you think upcoming tweaked Nacken Vintage Black could out-cool the blue?


Damn, I'm sure I do. Missed opportunity.

I haven't been following too closely: what's going to be tweaked on the new Nacken Vintage Black?

I'm doubtful anything will ever dethrone this Nacken Vintage Blue for me. There have been a lot of cool Subs that have come out since the original variants. Many have tempted me; I even owned a few. But nothing has ever challenged the Nacken Vintage Blue's slot in my box.

And not just for the aesthetics. The build, specs, and price of the Subs in general are just reassuring to me. There's just something about the details that collectively yield the epitome of a dive watch to me, in the vein of a classical tool GADA skin diver (or what I presume Rolex Subs were once appreciated as).


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Don't know how you keep sane......


Booze and walls-o-text.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> Damn, I'm sure I do. Missed opportunity.
> 
> I haven't been following too closely: what's going to be tweaked on the new Nacken Vintage Black?


"Titanium" colored insert. Date window moved to 6.

Otherwise, it's unchanged.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> . . .
> 
> I haven't been following too closely: what's going to be tweaked on the new Nacken Vintage Black?





docvail said:


> "Titanium" colored insert. Date window moved to 6.
> 
> Otherwise, it's unchanged.


Thank you, sir.



3WR said:


> . . .
> 
> Curious, do you think upcoming tweaked Nacken Vintage Black could out-cool the blue?


I love the Nacken Vintage Black, but sounds like I'll still be on team Vintage Blue


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

From video, new bezel color looks darker. Looks better to me. Previous bezel made the choice between blue and black easy for me.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

3WR said:


> From video, new bezel color looks darker. Looks better to me. Previous bezel made the choice between blue and black easy for me.
> 
> View attachment 14812779


Thanks. Looks great. I look forward to seeing shots from those who get in on it.

That said, I also always liked the ghosted effect of the prior bezel (throw the OG on a strap of some sort to get some more contrast going and its a winner IMO).


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Team Vintage Blue remains the coolest NTH to date. Nacken Modern Black remains most versatile.



ck2k01 said:


> Thank you, sir.
> 
> I love the Nacken Vintage Black, but sounds like I'll still be on team Vintage Blue


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




----------



## karabiner159 (Sep 14, 2017)

docvail said:


> True story -
> 
> This was a little more than a month ago. He won the watch in 2015. The crown broke once, and we fixed it, under warranty. He's emailed us at least a dozen times since 2015, to complain about all sorts of nonsensical things, always demanding a free replacement strap, buckle, or a whole new watch.
> 
> ...


I am really surprised at your patience. I can't think of anyone I know who's done that much for a clearly crazy problem customer.
He's not even a customer fgs!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> Team Vintage Blue remains the coolest NTH to date. Nacken Modern Black remains most versatile.


Factual objectivity for the win!

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

karabiner159 said:


> I am really surprised at your patience. I can't think of anyone I know who's done that much for a clearly crazy problem customer.
> He's not even a customer fgs!


I try to keep people happy, if I can.

An untold part of that story was that I know the crown assembly on that model was wonky. We have plenty of spares, so even outside of warranty, we'll sort problems out for folks as long as our spares last.

I should have asked for a pic of the broken crown before we told him to send it back. The mistake was mine.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Factual objectivity for the win!
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.












#teamvintageblue

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

docvail said:


> The struggle is real!
> 
> Got this one back from a guy who said his crown was broken. Turns out there was just four years of nasty caked all over the watch and threads.
> 
> ...


Did he send it to you in this state lol?
What a disrespectful grub.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cobia said:


> Did he send it to you in this state lol?
> What a disrespectful grub.


Yep. That's how we got it.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

docvail said:


> Yep. That's how we got it.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I cant say where it looks like its been, but a bit of imagination is all it takes.
Youd feel embarrassed just handing that to somebody to look at, let alone to expect somebody to work on.
The fact he won it makes it even more disrespectful.
Id hate to see how he leaves public restrooms.


----------



## Wimads (Jun 14, 2015)

Cobia said:


> I cant say where it looks like its been, but a bit of imagination is all it takes.
> Youd feel embarrassed just handing that to somebody to look at, let alone to expect somebody to work on.
> The fact he won it makes it even more disrespectful.
> Id hate to see how he leaves public restrooms.


I did not need that mental image... Thank you..


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Wimads said:


> I did not need that mental image... Thank you..


You're welcome.










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ick. If that's what the guy's watch looks like, I can't even begin to fathom what his wrist must _smell_ like. Mostly what I get on my casebacks after a full day of wear is just skin oil. A quick rub with a wet paper towel before I put it back on in the morning or I put it back in my watch case takes care of that. Also a pro-tip I discovered recently: hand soap will not remove sun screen from silicone straps. Dish soap however, will.


----------



## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Ick. If that's what the guy's watch looks like, I can't even begin to fathom what his wrist must _smell_ like. Mostly what I get on my casebacks after a full day of wear is just skin oil. A quick rub with a wet paper towel before I put it back on in the morning or I put it back in my watch case takes care of that. Also a pro-tip I discovered recently: hand soap will not remove sun screen from silicone straps. Dish soap however, will.


To be fair it looks like it was owned by a left handed hobo who hadnt taken a shower in 3 years, who had just been kicked out of a month long extreme swingers party for refusing to shower..
Looks like he's taken it straight off and sent it in for repairs without even giving it a rinse.

If you did a swab on that thing it would breed a world record cryptosporidium colony, in 5 minutes.

Youd have to get in a hazmat suit to even touch it.

Was the repair guy ok after working on it?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cobia said:


> To be fair it looks like it was owned by a left handed hobo who hadnt taken a shower in 3 years, who had just been kicked out of a month long extreme swingers party for refusing to shower..
> Looks like he's taken it straight off and sent it in for repairs without even giving it a rinse.
> 
> If you did a swab on that thing it would breed a world record cryptosporidium colony, in 5 minutes.
> ...


Dan?

Define "okay".

Dan was already a little weird when I first met him.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Cvp33 (May 6, 2017)

I have confirmed that the watch was worn in an unconventional way. He described it as his “man wrist”. Sweet geezus man!


----------



## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

Id suggest investing in one of these for your watch repair guys.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

#12/50 checking in.

Thank you!


----------



## bbrou33 (Aug 16, 2012)

My first NTH
#50/50
In love










I need more wrists


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Cvp33 said:


> I have confirmed that the watch was worn in an unconventional way. He described it as his "man wrist". Sweet geezus man!


I don't know what this post is about, but I went ahead and gave it a "like" anyway...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> #12/50 checking in.
> 
> Thank you!


How is that book?

It seems like something I should have already bought, but for all the pics I've seen people post of it, I haven't read any comments about what's inside, and if it's any good.


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Rhorya said:


> #12/50 checking in.
> 
> Thank you!


I have that book. It should be called A Man and his Rolex, for Christ's sake. (Although actually some of the essays are decent.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

From BSHT:



Rhorya said:


> I'd also suggest dropping a Carolina pic into the NTH forum as a fly by "tip of the hat" to Doc!


Uncanny resemblance


View attachment 14813483


Good Sunday to all


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> How is that book?
> 
> It seems like something I should have already bought, but for all the pics I've seen people post of it, I haven't read any comments about what's inside, and if it's any good.


It's an enjoyable table book read.

Every watch has a two page or so essay by the contributor about his or her foray into watches, the story of the watch at hand, significant memories attached to the watch, why the watch resonates with him or her, etc. It's not academic watch research.

It's like reading single watch segments of Hodinkee's Talking Watches videos, accompanied with nice sterile studio watch photography.

I think it's worth the reasonable cost of entry off Amazon ($26 right now).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> How is that book?
> 
> It seems like something I should have already bought, but for all the pics I've seen people post of it, I haven't read any comments about what's inside, and if it's any good.


Have it and like it. It sits next to my bed and I pick it up every few weeks and flip through it and read some of the essays again. There are some moving parts, especially when authors speak to the significance of their watch as it relates to their father, grandfather, partner, etc. I'd say it's worth the $.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Ike2 said:


> I have that book. It should be called A Man and his Rolex, for Christ's sake. (Although actually some of the essays are decent.)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Welp, looks like I'll be saving those Amazon bucks for something else...


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

docvail said:


> How is that book?
> 
> Actually I posted my mocking comment before seeing Doc's question, so I will expand a bit. The book has a bunch of stories by men about the watch that has personal meaning for them, and why. Some are industry guys or WIS, others don't pretend to know much about watches. Yes there are lots of vintage Rolexes, but lots of other brands and types as well. Some of the stories are very powerful, while others ... I guess you had to be there. The photos are excellent and some of the watches are quite interesting. E.g, a vintage LeCoultre "Deep Sea Alarm" or a 1960s "Tornek-Rayville U.S." (rebranded Fifty Fathoms) with a compass on the back that USMC issued to a recon marine who wore it through 6 years of combat in Vietnam. How ....... cool is that? Pics below. So yes, I recommend the book for Doc and the types of guys on this forum.
> 
> ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



ck2k01 said:


> It's an enjoyable table book read.
> 
> Every watch has a two page or so essay by the contributor about his or her foray into watches, the story of the watch at hand, significant memories attached to the watch, why the watch resonates with him or her, etc. It's not academic watch research.
> 
> ...


Thanks, but I think I'll pass. I don't think I'd enjoy reading some random guy's random thoughts about some random watches.

But, as long as we're on this topic (books for watch-geeks), I can't recommend "Longitude" highly enough. I read it on my Kindle, which makes it hard to instantly know how "big" a book is, but I read it in a couple days, so my best guess is it's only a few hundred pages, maybe less.

I keep thinking someday I'll write a tell-all memoir of my time in this business, probably structured as a collection of anecdotes, rather than a single narrative in chronological order. I wouldn't think it sounds like an interesting topic, but I think I could make it funny enough to be entertaining.

My wife and I just started watching season 2 of "Mindhunter" on Netflix. Highly recommend the series, if you like true crime as a genre. Most of the episodes are directed by David Fincher, who is just outstanding, IMO.

Last night, there was a scene where Agent Tench is interviewing the sole survivor of a BTK killer attack, and the guy mentions BTK was wearing a "big watch, like something from the military".

Yes, my ears perked up. Is there a correlation between over-sized watches and serial killers? I knew it!!!

Nah, seems BTK took it from one of his first male victims, the father of the Otero family. The FBI guy had a pic of it on Otero's wrist, but it was too small on screen to make out what it was.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Thanks, but I think I'll pass. I don't think I'd enjoy reading some random guy's random thoughts about some random watches.
> 
> But, as long as we're on this topic (watches for watch-geeks), I can't recommend "Longitude" highly enough. I read it on my Kindle, which makes it hard to instantly know how "big" a book is, but I read it in a couple days, so my best guess is it's only a few hundred pages, maybe less.
> 
> ...


Absolutely loved mindhunter, one of the best things I've watched in a long time (until The Witcher came along....), glad to hear your enjoying it. Disappointing thing is that another season is very unlikely, apparently not enough people liked or watched it.....


----------



## bbrou33 (Aug 16, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hornet99 said:


> Absolutely loved mindhunter, one of the best things I've watched in a long time (until The Witcher came along....), glad to hear your enjoying it. Disappointing thing is that another season is very unlikely, apparently not enough people liked or watched it.....


Really? I loved Mindhunter and everyone I talk to about it feels the same. Hopefully a third season comes along.

I need more wrists


----------



## Ike2 (Jun 29, 2009)

Coincidentally, I heard a great “Man and His Watch”-type story from a buddy the other night. We were catching up at the bar of a watering hole in Annapolis when my eyes were immediately attracted to his watch. It was a GORGEOUS vintage Rolex Air-King. He had recently brought it out of a drawer and had it serviced and cleaned up. It was at the same time shiny with it’s silver satin dial and Jubilee bracelet but, at about 36 mm, not blingy at all. I don’t think I had ever seen one of these in the flesh and was really struck by it’s simple, ineluctable aesthetic logic. Just classic and cool. Simple slender hands and no magnifier of course. I would LOVE to have one. 

Then he told me the story. In the 1960s his grandfather was a surgeon on US naval ship. He performed a life-saving operation on a South American diplomat who was aboard. The watch was a thank you gift from said diplomat. The grandfather wore it for years and then gave it to my friend, and he will pass it down in due course to one of his daughters. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



bbrou33 said:


> Really? I loved Mindhunter and everyone I talk to about it feels the same. Hopefully a third season comes along.
> 
> I need more wrists


https://www.radiotimes.com/news/on-demand/2020-01-25/mindhunter-season-3-release-date/


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hornet99 said:


> Absolutely loved mindhunter, one of the best things I've watched in a long time (until The Witcher came along....), glad to hear your enjoying it. Disappointing thing is that another season is very unlikely, apparently not enough people liked or watched it.....


I tried to get into the Witcher, and just didn't. Maybe I'll give it another try.

The thing about Netflix originals is that they rarely get any advertising help. Amazon seemed to blanket the Earth with ads for the Jack Ryan series. Yet the only way I hear about Netflix originals is through word of mouth, mostly on social media, and there aren't that many people really raving about too much of that content. "Peaky Blinders" is the only NF series that seems to have a large and rabid following.

I thought the Punisher was great, and Luke Cage was decent, but most of the other Marvel series were crap. Altered Carbon was pretty good, I thought. The Highwaymen was outstanding.

For those into cars, the documentaries "Apex" and "The 24hr War" were good. I love "the Grand Tour".

The series "Fastest Car" is pretty decent, too. Fun bit of watch-related trivia - season 2 opens with the guy behind that "Watch Trading Academy" (not that Swiss Baillod guy doing that "Watch Trade Academy", the guy with the ads on Facebook, about flipping luxury watches for profit, Pejman Ghadimi), driving a Lamborghini, and making friends fast.

But so much of what I see on Netflix just looks like refried garbage.

Anyway, my hope is that Mindhunter catches on.

I'm just wrapping up the Mandalorian on Disney Plus. It's okay, not fantastic, despite all the hype about it, and all the Baby Yoda memes flooding Facebook.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> I tried to get into the Witcher, and just didn't. Maybe I'll give it another try.
> 
> The thing about Netflix originals is that they rarely get any advertising help. Amazon seemed to blanket the Earth with ads for the Jack Ryan series. Yet the only way I hear about Netflix originals is through word of mouth, mostly on social media, and there aren't that many people really raving about too much of that content. "Peaky Blinders" is the only NF series that seems to have a large and rabid following.
> 
> ...


We don't get Disney+ until March in the UK, so will have to wait for the Mandalorian, daughter and I are looking forward to it!

......with the Witcher you've got to realise that it's not all told in chronological order and jumps about a bit, once you've gotten over this or used to it then it makes sense. Just let it wash over you, especially Geralt's grunting responses, hilarious. Sacrilegious but I thought it was better than GoT, but maybe the last season of GoT made me jaded.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> We don't get Disney+ until March in the UK, so will have to wait for the Mandalorian, daughter and I are looking forward to it!
> 
> ......with the Witcher you've got to realise that it's not all told in chronological order and jumps about a bit, once you've gotten over this or used to it then it makes sense. Just let it wash over you, especially Geralt's grunting responses, hilarious. Sacrilegious but I thought it was better than GoT, but maybe the last season of GoT made me jaded.


The last season of GoT was ****e.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> How is that book?
> 
> It seems like something I should have already bought, but for all the pics I've seen people post of it, I haven't read any comments about what's inside, and if it's any good.


Pretty photos, if not particularly interesting. Same composition, framing, lighting, content - just the watch.

The short three/four-paragraph narrations by the watch owners, talking about the significance of the watch, are... Not particularly insightful, nor really meaningful to anyone but the owner themselves.

As a collection, the book basically is an advertisement for the lifestyle/appreciation of used/vintage watches, and how the "character" they have is imbued with a mystical connection to an event of some note (implied noteworthy) because the owners or people involved were of some note.

If you've read a Hodinkee style article, this book is basically that Hodinkee ethos distilled to the most basic of concepts underpinning it all: "You should care about this worn out jewellery because of who owns / wore it". If you don't happen to worship the idols the book shows, then it all feels really flat and (on the author's part) rather exploitative/cheap.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Pretty photos, if not particularly interesting. Same composition, framing, lighting, content - just the watch.
> 
> The short three/four-paragraph narrations by the watch owners, talking about the significance of the watch, are... Not particularly insightful, nor really meaningful to anyone but the owner themselves.
> 
> ...


That's about what I figured.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Shropshire_Tom (Sep 20, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> True story -
> 
> The guy didn't buy the watch. He won it, in a giveaway, in 2015. And he's outside the USA, so there was international shipping and customs costs involved.
> 
> ...


See....this is why I never get around to even see what it might take get into business for myself. I don't get anywhere near to thinking about cash flow forecasting or marketing or anything....because I always imagine a situation like this (a little less petty to be fair ... ) and think "Your business will go down the pan when you punch someone" and then I also usually think "...and that could take 5 minutes if it's something really stupid".

I mean it wouldn't be in watches - it's be in the stuff I do for a living which I know inside out...but even so, some people are proof that evolution stalled and Darwin was only correct until we started actively working against evolution by natural selection!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Shropshire_Tom said:


> See....this is why I never get around to even see what it might take get into business for myself. I don't get anywhere near to thinking about cash flow forecasting or marketing or anything....because I always imagine a situation like this (a little less petty to be fair ... ) and think "Your business will go down the pan when you punch someone" and then I also usually think "...and that could take 5 minutes if it's something really stupid".
> 
> I mean it wouldn't be in watches - it's be in the stuff I do for a living which I know inside out...but even so, some people are proof that evolution stalled and Darwin was only correct until we started actively working against evolution by natural selection!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I forget who I was talking to recently, but we went from saying his or my business is hard to admitting pretty much every business is hard. Every business has its share of knuckleheads, among both competitors and customers.

If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. But once everyone starts doing it, it's no longer easy.

Honestly, over 99% of the people I deal with are nice enough, normal enough, etc. It's just that <1% who are out of their minds, who create all the problems, who take up so much of my time, and embed themselves in my memory.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

I don't watch TV, so I have no way of judging those shows. I did enjoy Longitude, which is why I liked Doc's post. Dava Sobel is a great writer.


----------



## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

Carolinas 08 and 42 checking in.









Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## valuedcustomer (Dec 12, 2017)

#34

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

I used to work as a bicycle mechanic. The way people would drop their bikes off for service... *shudder*

Nowadays, my car goes through the car wash with the undercarriage spray, and a vacuum of the inside before I drop it off for service.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Tried to like Witcher. Would rather drop a dirty car off for service than watch another episode. At least the shop gets paid to service the car; I had to pay to watch Witcher


----------



## Impoverished (Mar 17, 2015)

#44 with the glow.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

LifeTrekker said:


> Carolinas 08 and 42 checking in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Added together, they make 50, the exact number of Carolinas.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Tried to like Witcher. Would rather drop a dirty car off for service than watch another episode. At least the shop gets paid to service the car; I had to pay to watch Witcher


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I could never come close to pulling off a 46mm watch, but the dial on this guy is _spectacular_. Also quite an interesting way of doing a triple time GMT without using a bezel.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

I've decided to use my own patented "brand magnifier" on an NTH. I don't care what date it is, but I really want those around me to be able to see what kind of watch I have on and flaunt my status. Now as soon as I have a jubilee bracelet for this I will use my social media influencer status to generate tons of business for you Doc.

You're welcome, and I expect a cut of the revenue from this industry disrupting idea that you will surely adopt.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

On a serious note though.

Big thanks Chris for putting out this second small run of Carolinas. The whole project is really awesome to begin with, and I appreciate that I was able to get in on this second run. The watch really is a stunner, and the meaning behind it elevates it to another level in my collection. Sadly this means the Renegade, Devil Ray and Tikuna Matata will be getting less wrist time. This thing is just too Damn cool.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> I've decided to use my own patented "brand magnifier" on an NTH. I don't care what date it is, but I really want those around me to be able to see what kind of watch I have on and flaunt my status. Now as soon as I have a jubilee bracelet for this I will use my social media influencer status to generate tons of business for you Doc.
> 
> You're welcome, and I expect a cut of the revenue from this industry disrupting idea that you will surely adopt.
> 
> ...


Magnifier is out of alignment.

Clearly defective.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

ck2k01 said:


> Thanks. Looks great. I look forward to seeing shots from those who get in on it.
> 
> That said, I also always liked the ghosted effect of the prior bezel (throw the OG on a strap of some sort to get some more contrast going and its a winner IMO).


Not sure why it took me this long to reply to this...

Here's the deal with these illustrations before-the-fact..

When we specify dial colors, we use Pantones, so Rusty can illustrate with nearly 100% color accuracy.

With the bezel inserts, the vendor that plates the steel has their own colors for the PVD/DLC, and they're not Pantones, nor do they tell us how the colors equate to Pantones.

Rusty has no clue how to illustrate based on those samples. He just illustrates the RGB (Red-Green-Blue) ratio I tell him to. In order to figure that out, I have to literally - I $hlt you not - hold the vendor's little blue book of plating samples up to my computer screen, and try to find the RGB numbers which look closest to the sample I'm holding.

It's a crap shoot, before we get the finished product. Once we get the product in hand, we'll often go back and re-do the illustrations, to get the colors closer to real life.

The "titanium" color sample is like, half a shade darker than the original bezel insert on that model, which, depending on the light, looked gray, or like bare steel, or green, or brown.

I wanted to try the titanium color because I thought it would be a more "predictable" color in the metal, and have less variation in appearance from one guy's photo of it to the next.

Anyhoo...don't go by that illustration alone. Wait for the real watches to come in. They may look a little different.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> Magnifier is out of alignment.
> 
> Clearly defective.


Wrong. The better brands get it right. It's these cheap micros selling $80 watches for $600 that can't align a Cyclops OR a bezel. The audacity.

But I will be emailing you regarding fixing the mod I performed under warranty. I still have 5 years of future problems to pester you with.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

And another pic of that beautiful gilt relief at work. Just to make up for my shenanigans.










Oh look chief! He said shenanigans!!!!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> I forget who I was talking to recently, but we went from saying his or my business is hard to admitting pretty much every business is hard. Every business has its share of knuckleheads, among both competitors and customers.
> 
> If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. But once everyone starts doing it, it's no longer easy.
> 
> ...


What are you going on about? I'm going to take a nap for a minute, and when I wake up, I'm going to pick some parts off AliBaba and, Open Sesame, I'm going to commission a few thousand $80 watches of high quality Chinese manufacture, and sell 'em all. They will be on bracelets, none of which will require repair or return, the logo will not require any IP trade dispute, but they will be freakin' AWESOME. Oh, yeah, I almost forgot, they will have bi-directional pressure fit bezels, so they can be made to be exactly freakin' perfectly zeroed. Still, I know, some Doofus will try to return it because ... wait for it ... it's not FAIR to make him twist the bezel.

trust me, doc, your business, selling watches to tools, is not quite what you expected, is it: selling tool watches. Don't answer. It's okay. We know.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> Wrong. The better brands get it right. It's these cheap micros selling $80 watches for $600 that can't align a Cyclops OR a bezel. The audacity.
> 
> But I will be emailing you regarding fixing the mod I performed under warranty. I still have 5 years of future problems to pester you with.
> 
> ...


I'd have put it over that phallic 12 marker, to make it bigger.

But that's just me.

I'm immature like that.


----------



## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Dub Rubb said:


> On a serious note though.
> 
> Big thanks Chris for putting out this second small run of Carolinas. The whole project is really awesome to begin with, and I appreciate that I was able to get in on this second run. The watch really is a stunner, and the meaning behind it elevates it to another level in my collection. Sadly this means the Renegade, Devil Ray and Tikuna Matata will be getting less wrist time. This thing is just too Damn cool.
> 
> ...


Can't wait to see this thing when we finally have a meet up lol (my buddy has been pestering me to get a date set)

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> What are you going on about? I'm going to take a nap for a minute, and when I wake up, I'm going to pick some parts off AliBaba and, Open Sesame, I'm going to commission a few thousand $80 watches of high quality Chinese manufacture, and sell 'em all. They will be on bracelets, none of which will require repair or return, the logo will not require any IP trade dispute, but they will be freakin' AWESOME. Oh, yeah, I almost forgot, they will have bi-directional pressure fit bezels, so they can be made to be exactly freakin' perfectly zeroed. Still, I know, some Doofus will try to return it because ... wait for it ... it's not FAIR to make him twist the bezel.
> 
> trust me, doc, your business, selling watches to tools, is not quite what you expected, is it: selling tool watches. Don't answer. It's okay. We know.


You forgot to mention the self-loctiting bracelet screws.

Shows how much you know, smart guy.

Pffffft. And you want to be my latex salesman...


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Dub Rubb said:


> Wrong. The better brands get it right. It's these cheap micros selling $80 watches for $600 that can't align a Cyclops OR a bezel. The audacity.
> 
> But I will be emailing you regarding fixing the mod I performed under warranty. I still have 5 years of future problems to pester you with.
> 
> ...


chris, this dude gets it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> You forgot to mention the self-loctiting bracelet screws.
> 
> Shows how much you know, smart guy.
> 
> Pffffft. And you want to be my latex salesman...


Wait. What?

By the way, the phallic remark was strong.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

docvail said:


> I'd have put it over that phallic 12 marker, to make it bigger.
> 
> But that's just me.
> 
> I'm immature like that.


 brilliant. Well played. And I am glad you are a good sport, I figured a Philly guy could go along with the fun. Really digging this Carolina though. As of right now, it holds the top spot in my collection.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Firecrow911 (Mar 7, 2019)

docvail said:


> I'd have put it over that phallic 12 marker, to make it bigger.
> 
> But that's just me.
> 
> I'm immature like that.


... and knowing that is half the battle. The other half is resisting the urge to exercise that immaturity when it clearly needs to be directed at someone deserving of it.

And thats okay, we're all redeemable.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

ryan850 said:


> Can't wait to see this thing when we finally have a meet up lol (my buddy has been pestering me to get a date set)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Looking forward to it bud! I don't have much on the calendar. But who really knows what the wife "forgot" to tell me about. I'll make sure to bring the Carolina though.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## ck2k01 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> Not sure why it took me this long to reply to this...
> 
> Here's the deal with these illustrations before-the-fact..
> 
> ...


Do you, brother  

All these Carolinas are 

I've come so close to pulling the trigger on a pre-owned several times. Looks awesome, very WIS, and a lovely backstory. Enjoy guys!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> brilliant. Well played. And I am glad you are a good sport, I figured a Philly guy could go along with the fun. Really digging this Carolina though. As of right now, it holds the top spot in my collection.
> 
> Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


I sell the best $80 watches $700 can buy.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> I sell the best $80 watches $700 can buy.


bro. $80 is SO yesterday. Word on the street is you can get a mechanical for $50. https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/$50-mechanical-5115473.html


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> bro. $80 is SO yesterday. Word on the street is you can get a mechanical for $50. https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/$50-mechanical-5115473.html


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seiko NH35 - $46. Seiko 5 - $76. You can charge $30 more than the price of a 9015 Doc. Anything more than that - highway robbery of course.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Seiko NH35 - $46. Seiko 5 - $76. You can charge $30 more than the price of a 9015 Doc. Anything more than that - highway robbery of course.


Said it before, I'll say it again...

If all someone values is the cost of the components, cool, go buy all the components, and put your own watch together. You could probably put a decent 200m WR dive watch together, with a 9015, and a bracelet, for about $300.

You'll have to do your own assembly and QC. It won't be an original design. It won't have any warranty. You won't have any support from the companies that sold you the parts. Doubtful the quality will be as good. Etc, etc, etc.

$80, though? That's insane. I know a lot of the BSHT guys will do builds using Tiger Concept cases. They'll tell you, those cases are nowhere near as good as NTH's. I think Tiger comes right out and says their WR specs are BS, don't get the watch wet. Ours could easily pass ISO testing, if we felt like bothering.

Every few months, it seems someone will pop up, point to an ad on AliBaba or Ali Express, an ad featuring a watch that looks like an NTH, or in some cases, an ad with images the factory lifted right from my website, with a ridiculously low "price" next to it, and say, "See? Here's Chris's cost! He's ripping people off!"

My OEM doesn't advertise on AliBaba. Those aren't my watches. The factories and their salespeople spam AliBaba with hundreds of ads, using pics they lifted off any number of websites, from big brands and small, and all with ridiculously low prices, because they know people searching the site will often sort search results by price - lowest to highest.

The first time I saw an Omega Planet Ocean was a pic of one with the logo shopped out, on AliBaba. Seriously, do people think Omega's factory is advertising on AliBaba, showing a pic of the PO? Of course not. It's delusional on its face. But if they see a micro, "Ah-HAHHHH!!! I found his factory!!! Now I know his true costs!!!"

Those prices are entirely fictional, just like the images. When I first started looking for a factory, on AliBaba, and I started contacting those factories, I learned very quickly how they play the game.

I would ask about the watch in the ad, and they'd immediately pivot - "please send us your design, please provide us with the specs and components you want to use." I did that, and the price was WAY higher. "What happened to $60 per unit?"

I can't even tell you how giddy I was when I saw that one guy say he's been looking into starting his own microbrand. OMG, I can't wait to see that. First he trolls the forum, taking shots at a popular micro, and arguing with other members, and throwing numbers around recklessly (ignorantly). Then he says he's planning to start his own micro, but won't "shill" it here.

Okay, then, I'm assuming that means he doesn't want people knowing the brand he starts is his? That would seem to indicate he knows his comments have been out of line, and likely indicates he doesn't plan to sell the watches for the crazy-low numbers he's been throwing around, as he's been smearing a future competitor?

I also wonder how he plans to promote his new brand, if he won't talk about it on the forum. Generally, microbrand owners who engage with their customers online tend to do better than those who don't. Is he going to limit his "shilling" to Facebook or Instagram? How is that any different?

That other guy? Apparently he just has a hard-on for micros, or perhaps just certain micros, judging by the way he seems to go after certain brands...

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/show-me-your-camouflage-watches-4975607.html#post49191555

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/@@@@[email protected]@@@-4982195-9.html#post49271613

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/what-you-wearing-right-now-1062434-4176.html#post49191533

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/what-you-wearing-right-now-1062434-4191.html#post49253919

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/what-you-wearing-right-now-1062434-4191.html#post49253931

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/****...-wruw************-4980779-8.html#post49253905

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/*-*-...w-right-now-*-*-*-4975601-6.html#post49191585

Trolls gonna troll. Nothing you can do but ignore them.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> bro. $80 is SO yesterday. Word on the street is you can get a mechanical for $50. https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/$50-mechanical-5115473.html


OMG this is the best...



Sasropakis said:


> I wouldn't waste my time on modding the Tevise. I paid something like $20 for it and it feels as cheap as the price suggests. The movement is Tongji so the cheapest Chinese automatic movement but it's not really automatic as you have to handwind it too to keep it alive. And I managed to knock it and even though the watch didn't get a scratch someting went wrong with the movement so not it's "accurate" to several minutes per day. Also the case is made of alloy, has sharp edges and scratches easily and the bezel action is rather poor. So while it looks rather good from a distance it's rather disappointing in every aspect. I would advise you to spend some extra money and get a watch with Seiko or Miyota movement and steel case if you want to practice modding.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

So I stay away from the forums and miss all those popcorn threads.

Wow my NTH is 80 Yuan worth, here is a factory photo. This is how they finish the cases, inexcusable!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Seikogi said:


> So I stay away from the forums and miss all those popcorn threads.
> 
> Wow my NTH is 80 Yuan worth, here is a factory photo. This is how they finish the cases, inexcusable!
> 
> View attachment 14818437


Isn't that what all the cool-kids call Zaratsu finishing...?


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Isn't that what all the cool-kids call Zaratsu finishing...?


It is, crazy doc claims Zaratsu polishing on this 80 yuan piece.

Seriously, "Zaratsu" polishing is one of the terms I cannot stand in watch forums, especially since I also free hand sharpen my knives, sometimes to high grit polished mirror finishes. They make it sound as if its some out of space technique.

Other notable terms like "bang for buck", "bezel action", "homage", "in-house", etc.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Seikogi said:


> It is, crazy doc claims Zaratsu polishing on this 80 yuan piece.
> 
> Seriously, "Zaratsu" polishing is one of the terms I cannot stand in watch forums, especially since I also free hand sharpen my knives, sometimes to high grit polished mirror finishes. They make it sound as if its some out of space technique.
> 
> Other notable terms like "bang for buck", "bezel action", "homage", "in-house", etc.


The hot one lately seems to be everyone one-upping their competitors grade of stainless steel. Who gives a crap as long as it doesn't rust like a cheap toothbrush holder? But I ain't paying more than $83.50 if it's not 90444.666LMNOP grade!


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Seikogi said:


> mconlonx said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't that what all the cool-kids call Zaratsu finishing...?
> ...


Knives with mirror edges you say? My daily user at work, my much beloved ESEE 3.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Knives with mirror edges you say? My daily user at work, my much beloved ESEE 3.


I do need an ESEE, never had one, looks great with the Tikuna! Great even edge btw. 

I usually EDC a Pacific Salt Spyderco or a custom Cheburkov Swift.

Wish we could post that stuff here...


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> It is, crazy doc claims Zaratsu polishing on this 80 yuan piece.
> 
> Seriously, "Zaratsu" polishing is one of the terms I cannot stand in watch forums, especially since I also free hand sharpen my knives, sometimes to high grit polished mirror finishes. They make it sound as if its some out of space technique.
> 
> Other notable terms like "bang for buck", "bezel action", "homage", "in-house", etc.


Let's not forget term du jour "wrist cheese".


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

RmacMD said:


> Let's not forget term du jour "wrist cheese".


I'd rather forget that one. That was the most disgusting thing I have seen on this forum, by far.

Even the worst condition vintage watches that I bought can't compare to that.

__________

btw. that TimeFactors thread sure is salty, I am amazed how hateful people can be in a rather dull hobby like watches...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

RmacMD said:


> Let's please never mention "wrist cheese", ever again.


FTFY.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Seikogi said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > Knives with mirror edges you say? My daily user at work, my much beloved ESEE 3.
> ...


Oops, hope I didnt break a rule by posting a knife. If so, apologies all.

And you should definitely check out ESEE... if you're into Spydies, the Izula II is prolly right up your alley. They're definitely not knives for "steel snobs" though. Simple, effective, easy 1095. Though they did just release some updated SKUs in S35VN. Ok, I'll shut up about blades now and stick to watches.

The Sauro lands tomorrow!!


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

bbrou33 said:


> My first NTH
> #50/50
> In love
> 
> ...


Always compliant


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> Oops, hope I didnt break a rule by posting a knife. If so, apologies all.
> 
> And you should definitely check out ESEE... if you're into Spydies, the Izula II is prolly right up your alley. They're definitely not knives for "steel snobs" though. Simple, effective, easy 1095. Though they did just release some updated SKUs in S35VN. Ok, I'll shut up about blades now and stick to watches.
> 
> The Sauro lands tomorrow!!


they might not notice the photo, lets keep posting 

I am a steel nerd but not an edge retention junkie so I like them all.

Congrats on the Sauro! Apart from the Näcken, Sauro, Tikuna and Santa Cruz are my favorite flavours.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> I'd rather forget that one. That was the most disgusting thing I have seen on this forum, by far.
> 
> Even the worst condition vintage watches that I bought can't compare to that.
> 
> ...


Something I've noticed about forums and many FB discussions...

If one guy is outraged about X, but X is something silly/trivial, or just "normal", a lot of guys will respond to tell him he's crazy. After a while of people telling him he's crazy, inevitably, someone else will come along to argue with everyone saying that guy is crazy, and that guy will say the first guy isn't, he's quite reasonable, and they're all bullies, or snobs, or part of some class of brainwashed zombies, etc.

Likewise, if a bunch of guys are outraged by X, and X seems like something a lot of people would rightfully be outraged about, inevitably, someone will act like everyone is getting all up in arms over something trivial, no big deal, and they're all overreacting. That guy will be joined by guys taking the opposite side, or making "LOL" sorts of comments at how upset everyone is.

In either scenario, it always descends into endless bickering, involving increasingly obtuse analogies and irrelevant straw-man arguments.

Eventually someone invokes Hltl3r and the N4zis, or does something similar, and the mods will close the thread. Even if something that dramatic doesn't happen, eventually, the arguments become circular/repetitive, and the mods will close the thread.

Happens every time.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Mods stopped all that in Ginault thread. We’ve always self-policed here. But there’s a new gaggle of trolls who have nothing of value to add, theyre not funny, theyre just routinely off topic and noxious, hijacking threads with their blather. Mods should break out the ban hammers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Something I've noticed about forums and many FB discussions...
> 
> If one guy is outraged about X, but X is something silly/trivial, or just "normal", a lot of guys will respond to tell him he's crazy. After a while of people telling him he's crazy, inevitably, someone else will come along to argue with everyone saying that guy is crazy, and that guy will say the first guy isn't, he's quite reasonable, and they're all bullies, or snobs, or part of some class of brainwashed zombies, etc.
> 
> ...


that's a perfect breakdown. unfortunately there is nothing one can do about it, it will happen as long as forums exist.


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

Seikogi said:


> that's a perfect breakdown. unfortunately there is nothing one can do about it, it will happen as long as 'humans' exist.


FIFY.

Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## caktaylor (Mar 13, 2014)

hwa said:


> Mods stopped all that in Ginault thread. We've always self-policed here. But there's a new gaggle of trolls who have nothing of value to add, theyre not funny, theyre just routinely off topic and noxious, hijacking threads with their blather. Mods should break out the ban hammers.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Instead of the ban hammer, should should break out the Jan Hammer!

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=RDGQDU-2qMre0

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

itsa nthwa

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Hey Doc, quick question. I'm sure this has been asked before, so I'll apologize in advance. But seeing as I'm not gonna scroll through 1800+ pages of posts in this thread, here we go... 

I know you've got the BOR(or is it BOP now?), the standard oyster, etc. for NTH branded bracelets and rubber straps. But have you ever thought about doing more color options/combos for the rubber straps? Stamp NTH on the side of the strap and on the clasp I figure they'd sell pretty steadily.


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

docvail said:


> FTFY.


Once again, Goggle was my friend. I do apologize for my lapse in memory, but I'm pushing 70, so give me a damn break! I will self-banish myself to F74 and immerse myself in that forum for a short while, and then retire for the night.
Good evening gentlemen.


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

docvail said:


> Pffffft. And you want to be my latex salesman...


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Seikogi said:


> they might not notice the photo, lets keep posting
> 
> I am a steel nerd but not an edge retention junkie so I like them all.
> 
> Congrats on the Sauro! Apart from the Näcken, Sauro, Tikuna and Santa Cruz are my favorite flavours.


Fascinating glimpse into the vernacular of another hobby nerd culture.

I wonder if I'd be an edge retention junkie. I know when my "don't recall the brand but like it" pocket knife doesn't cut through something with the greatest of ease, it bums me out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

So you are saying I just need to refer to you as HlTL3R over there and I could stop all this nonsense?

On a serious note, I read the whole thread. Yet I gained actual knowledge of the subject in the first 10 posts. After that was just a chit show. Sometimes I don't know how you do it Chris. But I am sure glad you do. This Carolina is my go to right now. The other 40 or so watches are gonna start getting sad soon.

I've realized that in any given week, my Renegade and Tikuna always get worn at least once. Now with the Carolina, people are gonna start thinking I am an NTH fanboi. I am not. I am a Seikoholic through and through, but for some reason these just keep stealing wrist time.

Cheers to you Chris, for putting this watch together for what has to be the best group of guys on WUS, if not all of the internet.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> Seikogi said:
> 
> 
> > they might not notice the photo, lets keep posting ?
> ...


Watches and knives. In my opinion, the manliest collections you can have. You cant beat a watch that catches everyones eye and a blade you can shave with.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Peteagus said:


> itsa nthwa
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My son would love that!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Hey Doc, quick question. I'm sure this has been asked before, so I'll apologize in advance. But seeing as I'm not gonna scroll through 1800+ pages of posts in this thread, here we go...
> 
> I know you've got the BOR(or is it BOP now?), the standard oyster, etc. for NTH branded bracelets and rubber straps. But have you ever thought about doing more color options/combos for the rubber straps? Stamp NTH on the side of the strap and on the clasp I figure they'd sell pretty steadily.


I don't have any current plans to buy more straps, in any color, stamped or not.

Aside from ordering maybe 50 extras of the not-the-official-vintage-style-tropik-straps with the NTH Tropics, most of my strap purchases were a mistake. The straps don't sell quickly enough to bother, and the strap suppliers are often a pain in my balls.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Not sure how these two escaped to the night stand and ended up snuggled up together. The Skipjack had some low key day glow going on from some indirect sunlight. Seemed like a good enough reason to get a picture of these two all stars.

This picture lets down both watches. If you're familiar with the SARB, think of how much better it really looks than this photo. Then apply the same multiplier to the Skipjack.

If I wear something else for a day or two, I actually start to miss the Skipjack. Honeymoon phase going on 4 months now.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Doc, quick question. I'm sure this has been asked before, so I'll apologize in advance. But seeing as I'm not gonna scroll through 1800+ pages of posts in this thread, here we go...
> ...


Meh, fair enough. A guy can dream though.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

TheBearded said:


> Watches and knives. In my opinion, the manliest collections you can have. You cant beat a watch that catches everyones eye and a blade you can shave with.


Yeah, manly, I like the sound of that. Better than saying I collect and discuss jewelry with a bunch of other weirdos on the internet.

If I may venture off path for a moment, two knife questions for those in the know:

I just checked. My knife is a SOG Flash I. Feels nice enough to me. But just to make sure, it isn't the MVMT of the knife world, is it?

Is there an SKX007 of smallish pocket knives?


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Peteagus said:


> itsa nthwa
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've seen these little beauts based on Nazario, Scorpene, Nacken and I think Oberon. Are there pictures floating around of other re-cased subs?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> Meh, fair enough. A guy can dream though.


My problem is rubber straps are everywhere, like leather straps, NATOs, etc. They're easy enough to produce, which leads to a lot of people selling them.

But I have to order at least 300 at a time. Unless I'm giving them away with a watch, it takes me forever to sell that many.

I can design a good watch that stands apart. There's only one "NTH". But for the most part, a basic strap is a basic strap, unless it's something "special", and there are plenty of guys who know way more about straps than I do, and they all have a big head start on me.

I leave selling straps to the guys who are good at selling straps. I try to stay in my own lane. My lane is watches, not straps.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

3WR said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > Watches and knives. In my opinion, the manliest collections you can have. You cant beat a watch that catches everyones eye and a blade you can shave with.
> ...


SOG makes very decent knives, I've got a couple. We'll go ahead and consider the knives you get at the gas station "MVMT Knives". SOGs are perfectly functional, get the job done, entry level knives. Call em the Timex(I guess thatd fit) of knives.

Hmmm... now a knife version of the 007 is a little tougher... possibly say, a low-mid level Spyderco or Benchmade possibly.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > Meh, fair enough. A guy can dream though.
> ...


I see your point 100%, and you're definitely pulling it off staying in your lane. You wont hear any crying about it from my end, was simply curious. Something similar to that branded BSH leather strap is what I was imagining in my head, only in a nice natural rubber. Because we all know leather on a sub now n days is heresy!

Only kidding.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Seikogi said:


> I do need an ESEE, never had one, looks great with the Tikuna! Great even edge btw.
> 
> I usually EDC a Pacific Salt Spyderco or a custom Cheburkov Swift.
> 
> Wish we could post that stuff here...


Occasionally we get a mention of knives on WUS and I'm always curious about this, so for my edification what do you use these knives for on a daily basis?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Occasionally we get a mention of knives on WUS and I'm always curious about this, so for my edification what do you use these knives for on a daily basis?


Slashing necks and cashing checks.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Hornet99 said:


> Occasionally we get a mention of knives on WUS and I'm always curious about this, so for my edification what do you use these knives for on a daily basis?


The usual stuff. Opening packaging, letters, cutting things to length, dismembering bodies, helping your kids with art projects, threatening people who've wronged you. You know, every day stuff.

Also useful for some "side projects".


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> I see your point 100%, and you're definitely pulling it off staying in your lane. You wont hear any crying about it from my end, was simply curious. Something similar to that branded BSH leather strap is what I was imagining in my head, only in a nice natural rubber. Because we all know leather on a sub now n days is heresy!
> 
> Only kidding.


Lots of very good rubber strap sellers out there. Barton seems to be killing it lately. Crafter Blue is great. I've read nothing but good things about Borealis straps.

I forget who had the link, but not too long ago, someone posted pics of an NTH Sub on a fitted rubber strap, that looked pretty good, and I think whoever posted it said the quality and price were good.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > I see your point 100%, and you're definitely pulling it off staying in your lane. You wont hear any crying about it from my end, was simply curious. Something similar to that branded BSH leather strap is what I was imagining in my head, only in a nice natural rubber. Because we all know leather on a sub now n days is heresy!
> ...


I've actually got quite a few Barton straps. Canvas and silicone rubber with a pretty nice quick release. Makes changes a breeze.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Hornet99 said:


> Seikogi said:
> 
> 
> > I do need an ESEE, never had one, looks great with the Tikuna! Great even edge btw. 🙂
> ...


Opening amd breaking down boxes of parts and material I'm using for any given project. Stripping shielded cable, threatening my project manager when he gets on my nerves. You know, the usual stuff.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Hornet99 said:


> Occasionally we get a mention of knives on WUS and I'm always curious about this, so for my edification what do you use these knives for on a daily basis?


most likely, Tactical Urban Assault. Or at least that's the common fantasy for a lot of knife nuts.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

X2-Elijah said:


> Hornet99 said:
> 
> 
> > Occasionally we get a mention of knives on WUS and I'm always curious about this, so for my edification what do you use these knives for on a daily basis?
> ...


No no... its TactiCOOL.

Jokes aside, its merely a tool that I use daily in my trade. I'm not behind a desk all day.

Plus, I live in friggin Texas man, you need at least one knife and a gun just to get your driver's license here.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



X2-Elijah said:


> most likely, Tactical Urban Assault. Or at least that's the common fantasy for a lot of knife nuts.


Then I am so in! I 5h!t you not, my house came with a Tactical Wall.

I'm woefully under equipped. All I have is a bike helmet and not even a single rifle.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

I've never really gotten the fancy knife as a box cutter thing. I have a box cutter for that, with like 100 replacement blades for it in a little case. Eventually the blade gets all sticky and gross from tape goo, and I just change out the blade for a new one. Just about the last thing I want to do is clean and sharpen my box cutter. Kitchen knives on the other hand, _now_ we're talking.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Slashing necks and cashing checks.





Dub Rubb said:


> The usual stuff. Opening packaging, letters, cutting things to length, dismembering bodies, helping your kids with art projects, threatening people who've wronged you. You know, every day stuff.
> 
> Also useful for some "side projects".


So really just cutting up your sandwiches at work or dangerously picking out wrist cheese from watch bracelets, whilst still wearing the watch.......


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Kershaw Shuffle is my SKX007K of the knife world. Lives in my man-bag. Cuts open and breaks down boxes; family depends on me having a knife at Christmas, for opening presents and packaging. At work, I have cheap single-edge razor blade box cutters, too.

I could easily have gone KIS, was into them decades ago, but that would cut into my watch habit at this point... Buddy of mine just got a set of Yaxell kives for a friend. Damn. I used to be a meat cutter, still cut for the ex-in-laws on their farm, seasonally, so my kitchen knives are basic food service quality... but sharp.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

3WR said:


> Not sure how these two escaped to the night stand and ended up snuggled up together. The Skipjack had some low key day glow going on from some indirect sunlight. Seemed like a good enough reason to get a picture of these two all stars.
> 
> This picture lets down both watches. If you're familiar with the SARB, think of how much better it really looks than this photo. Then apply the same multiplier to the Skipjack.
> 
> ...


I had both for a while too. Honeymoon phase with the skipjack is over a year now. Sarb wore off much quicker. The pic shows one reason. That crystal always looked hazy. The other was that it was that it was shaped like a certain wannabe latex salesman on the last page. Too thick for it's size. The crystal can be fixed but it makes the watch even thicker.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

My EDC is a Cold-Steel lockback. Talk about keeping an edge!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...
> 
> Eventually someone invokes Hltl3r and the N4zis, or does something similar, and the mods will close the thread. Even if something that dramatic doesn't happen, eventually, the arguments become circular/repetitive, and the mods will close the thread.
> 
> Happens every time.


There you go:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/01/27/grand-valley-coach-....../ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/01/27/grand-valley-coach-....../

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Hornet99 said:


> Occasionally we get a mention of knives on WUS and I'm always curious about this, so for my edification what do you use these knives for on a daily basis?


Knives and watches are not so hard to compare. In both cases you admire metal objects for specific qualities and little real life benefits.

Being a "city boy" I use mine for:

tinkering, repairing stuff around the house, car
food prep at work (read office) because the knives in our kitchen are nasty
cutting and preparing packaging
deburring stuff like cheap IKEA furniture for example
cutting of free floating clothing threads/seams
as an emergency tool, for example cutting seat belts

I imagine people who live more rural have many additional use cases.

As with watches, an affordable SAK can get the job done but buying them for their craftsmanship, different lock/steel types, coolness factor, etc. makes it interesting.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Seikogi said:


> Knives and watches are not so hard to compare. In both cases you admire metal objects for specific qualities and little real life benefits.
> 
> Being a "city boy" I use mine for:
> 
> ...


And sharpening is easier than servicing a movement!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

hwa said:


> And sharpening is easier than servicing a movement!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


and more rewarding, unless you are a watchmaker and don't need 3 hours to swap watch hands like me.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

On the real...

I'm not really into knives, the way I know a lot of guys are. I had two folding lock blades I acquired when I was in the Army. 

I don't remember using my knife all that often when I was in the service. From what I do remember, usually it was used for something pretty mundane - slicing open an MRE ("Meal, Ready to Eat"), cutting the tail on a bandage, snipping a thread from a unform, etc. Nothing remotely "Rambo".

I have both folders in my office. I also have one of those cheap, plastic box cutters. I'll use one or the other to open a box or letter. I'll frequently keep one of the folders in my pocket when I'm out of the house. You never know when it may be useful. 

It's a crazy world. Even though we live in one of the most upscale zip codes on the planet, it's not free of violent crime. There are break-ins, home invasions, assaults, etc. Just within the last year or two, my son was robbed, and got beaten up by two other boys.

Better to have one and not need it than to need one and not have it.


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Seikogi said:


> Knives and watches are not so hard to compare. In both cases you admire metal objects for specific qualities and little real life benefits.
> 
> Being a "city boy" I use mine for:
> 
> ...


In the UK carrying knives, I'm hazy about the exact rules, can land you in trouble. Especially as we suffer from more knife related crime than say gun. Suppose for the US guns take that place.....


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Politics happen in 3...2...


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Politics happen in 3...2...
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Oops. Sorry if I'm upsetting anyone, was merely an observation.......


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

FWIW, in my (USA, Maine) state, we legalized auto knives when we did Constitutional Carry (concealed carry of firearms without a permit), so I often ponder the cost of a switchblade... but nowadays, some affordable watch usually catches my eye and keeps my priorities straight.


----------



## JakeJD (Jan 19, 2011)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



hwa said:


> There you go:
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/01/27/grand-valley-coach-....../ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/01/27/grand-valley-coach-....../
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol, can't even post the link because the forum filters a certain key word from it...


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

I’ve a small hoard of watches, and am always bloody late...

Logic dictates, knives, me bleeding continuously...


I did own a sword once. Seemed like a good idea at the time.


Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> I could easily have gone KIS, was into them decades ago, but that would cut into my watch habit at this point... Buddy of mine just got a set of Yaxell kives for a friend. Damn. I used to be a meat cutter, still cut for the ex-in-laws on their farm, seasonally, so my kitchen knives are basic food service quality... but sharp.


They're lovely, and the "Gou" SG2s are quite reasonably priced for SG2 steel knives, while being higher quality (IMO) than a comparable Miyabi. What I use at home though are Shun Classic VG-Max knives. Ironically, a lot of the higher end Japanese knives, at least that you can get in the states, are Western style, which I don't really like. I much prefer the push-cut method to rocking the knife on the board, which Japanese style knives (Nakiri, Honesuki, Kiritsuke) are much better suited for than a Western style chef's knife.

The Shuns are less brittle than the Yoshihiro VG-10 knives I had prior, while still managing to hold a sharp edge much longer than any Wusthof ever could, and they cost a fraction of what SG2 knives cost. They do still need periodic sharpening, but Shun's HQ here in Oregon will take care of that free of charge for the life of the knives, which is quite nice of them.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Hornet99 said:


> In the UK carrying knives, I'm hazy about the exact rules, can land you in trouble. Especially as we suffer from more knife related crime than say gun. Suppose for the US guns take that place.....


afaik any sort of lock on a knife is illegal in the UK so that leaves you with slipjoints. Enjoy the freedom hornet, its one less obsession to potentially worry about.

Its watches, guns and knives for me since I can also legally buy any semi auto assault rifle in Austria 

Other notable things many here seem into are flashlights, pens, lighters and those 1000 different EDC gadgets.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> On the real...
> 
> I'm not really into knives, the way I know a lot of guys are. I had two folding lock blades I acquired when I was in the Army.
> 
> ...


The military, before that I did not wear any watch and was happy. It was the first time I thought I NEEDED a watch. So the square G-Shock arrived. (And I did need it)

After that I discovered my first auto mechanical the Seiko Monster second gen. (Could kick myself for selling it)

Then came the affordable Seiko/Citizen/Swatch period...
After that the hunt for a well rounded collection...
Then the GADA thing...
Then the flipping era started...
Finally I found the type of watches I enjoy!

That's why my only "modern watches" are the Näcken and the GW5K.

The rest is 40-50 y.o. mostly Japanese stuff.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Davekaye90 said:


> They're lovely, and the "Gou" SG2s are quite reasonably priced for SG2 steel knives, while being higher quality (IMO) than a comparable Miyabi. What I use at home though are Shun Classic VG-Max knives. Ironically, a lot of the higher end Japanese knives, at least that you can get in the states, are Western style, which I don't really like. I much prefer the push-cut method to rocking the knife on the board, which Japanese style knives (Nakiri, Honesuki, Kiritsuke) are much better suited for than a Western style chef's knife.
> 
> The Shuns are less brittle than the Yoshihiro VG-10 knives I had prior, while still managing to hold a sharp edge much longer than any Wusthof ever could, and they cost a fraction of what SG2 knives cost. They do still need periodic sharpening, but Shun's HQ here in Oregon will take care of that free of charge for the life of the knives, which is quite nice of them.


I'm not sure what level of Yaxell he bought, but we watched a YT vid of someone doing the factory tour, and he pointed out one of two people who hand engraved the blade, and the one guy at the factory who did the final sharpen/polish, so guessing they were not the more reasonably priced models...

Professionally, I used whatever knives a service would deliver, which inevitably was Chicago Cutlery, Dexter, Forschner, and Victorinox, with molded plastic handles. In between services, they got sharpened on a belt sharpener and steel. Which is what is still used on the farm, when I cut there.

At home, kind of an accumulation: TJMaxx closeout Henckel Santoku, some off-brand Japanese Nakiri, Victorinox semi-flexible 6" boner, Wusthof classic 5" utility. Less used, a 12" Chicago Cutlery Cimeter Ergogrip (the pizza knife...), and a generic Chinese cleaver. I have a steel and some carbide gizmo at home for sharpening; annually, I bring them to the farm for a coarse run on the belt grinder, and then finish with the steel at home.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Tikuna on a chilly day.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> Tikuna on a chilly day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to ask...

How is it you bought a brand new Tikuna, despite frequently saying NTH watches were overpriced?

I seem to recall you saying that both before and after the purchase.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Seikogi said:


> afaik any sort of lock on a knife is illegal in the UK so that leaves you with slipjoints. Enjoy the freedom hornet, its one less obsession to potentially worry about.


Thankfully watches are my only obsession and that is becoming less and less so......


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> I have to ask...
> 
> How is it you bought a brand new Tikuna, despite frequently saying NTH watches were overpriced?
> 
> ...


My argument was not intended to be that they were overpriced. It was always that I felt they were not a deal and could/should be cheaper. Watches are basically about what you want to spend for me $700 and under seems to be the Crux. I had a hard time with the subs because they started at $400 and now are $650. Knowing Zelos and obris produce cheaper and similar or better specs leads my opinion on value. All that being said value is only part of the equation. I finally found a nth sub I loved the design of. And when in hand I loved it. Finishing overall is above obris, but deciding if it's $300 above is a judgment call. I buy based on appearance and brand. You produce a good product and stand behind it. I just disagree that it's a great value. I buy what I like and if it's under 700 and from a brand I respect I'll pull the trigger. Again maybe I've worded my arguments wrong, overpriced isn't the fight term, but I do feel it's lacking in value. I will say that you sell out so the market disagrees with me.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## kpjimmy (Feb 11, 2014)

TheBearded said:


> No no... its TactiCOOL.
> 
> Jokes aside, its merely a tool that I use daily in my trade. I'm not behind a desk all day.
> 
> Plus, I live in friggin Texas man, you need at least one knife and a gun just to get your driver's license here.


Where in TX? SAT Here. And I actually have my Ferrum Forge Falcon with me today lol.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## RmacMD (Jul 24, 2017)

Misplaced or lost my sweet Kershaw Leek last month. Really pissed about that. Backup is a Puma. Ain't a junk mail envelope or Amazon box made that I'm not cuttin'!


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

JLS36 said:


> ...overpriced isn't the fight term, but I do feel it's lacking in value.


I think this here is the basis for much of the "overpriced" arguments. Pricing is manufacturer driven and only Chris and his accountant know if the watches are overpriced or not.

To say in business, economics indicates that there is sweet spot with pricing which maximizes profit, with demand and supply in balance. And the way runs of NTH models sell out, they seem to be in that sweet spot, which, divorced from expenses, means that the watches are probably not overpriced. The Market attests to that.

On the consumer end, it's about value. My first NTH was purchased used, and for what I got, thought it was very good value indeed. I flipped that watch for what I originally paid in order to finance the next NTH watch, at full-pop retail. While I didn't think the VFM was not as good, I was well-satisfied by the value it represented -- value is not just based on price alone. Otherwise, I would not have flipped that one, in order to finance the Scorpene Nomad, which again, is good VFM from my POV.

I try not to argue about what represents value for others (no, really) -- value is very subjective to the person making the claim, and what represents value to me, might not to you. I got rid of the Commando at used watch pricing to buy the Nomad, and I purchased the Nomad at a higher price than I paid for the used Scorpene with dive bezel. But the Nomad represents a better value than either of them to me because it has a specific feature I wanted all along -- that 12hr bezel. For others, it's a turnoff, less value for money, and for some, no NTH will ever be worth the money.

I can't tell you that NTH watches are a good value; but also, you can't tell me that they are not...

And this is just objectively speaking about NTH offerings. Drag other watch brands and models into the picture and value gets even more subjective. I have a bronze San Martin watch which I like slightly less than the Nomad, but which represents outstanding VFM. Ostensibly, it offers better smiles/$, better value, but ultimately, I value the Nomad more... and the comparative costs of the watches have little to do with it -- I like the NTH better, would favor it in a this or that situation regardless of the price difference. _I just like it more._ And while VFM might play into that -- not sure I'd even be comfortable wearing it if it was twice the price (like, I've given up pursuing a Damasko DA4x series with 1-11 bezel) -- it's not a primary consideration, or even a major one.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> My argument was not intended to be that they were overpriced. It was always that I felt they were not a deal and could/should be cheaper. Watches are basically about what you want to spend for me $700 and under seems to be the Crux. I had a hard time with the subs because they started at $400 and now are $650. Knowing Zelos and obris produce cheaper and similar or better specs leads my opinion on value. All that being said value is only part of the equation. I finally found a nth sub I loved the design of. And when in hand I loved it. Finishing overall is above obris, but deciding if it's $300 above is a judgment call. I buy based on appearance and brand. You produce a good product and stand behind it. I just disagree that it's a great value. I buy what I like and if it's under 700 and from a brand I respect I'll pull the trigger. Again maybe I've worded my arguments wrong, overpriced isn't the fight term, but I do feel it's lacking in value. I will say that you sell out so the market disagrees with me.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Can we please all stop the value talk on watch forums. Everyone has his own definition of value.

Buy watches based on looks -> likes the look = great value

Buy watches based on specs -> better specs, same price = better value

Buy watches based on heritage -> more achievements = better value

Buy watches based on hype -> bigger hype = better value

Buy watch based on warranty, support ....

Usually its a combination of those and different factors, for some it can be a 10/10/60/20 ratio or 30/50/0/20 or XX....

So what's great value for one isn't true for the others.

Thus its a completely irrelevant discussion, especially since we discuss jewellery and not the construction details of rockets.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

kpjimmy said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > No no... its TactiCOOL.
> ...


I'm just a few minutes North of Dallas. Suburb called Richardson.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

TheBearded said:


> I'm just a few minutes North of Dallas. Suburb called Richardson.


That's close to Mr Gayle Bradley, isn't it?

I love his work, especially the GB1 folder.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Seikogi said:


> Can we please all stop the value talk on watch forums. Everyone has his own definition of value.
> 
> Buy watches based on looks -> likes the look = great value
> 
> ...


short answer is no.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Not looking to drag this out more than necessary, but...



JLS36 said:


> My argument was not intended to be that they were overpriced. It was always that I felt they were not a deal and could/should be cheaper.


Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm nearly certain I've seen you say they were "overpriced", using that exact term. But even if not, merely saying they "could/should be cheaper" seems like a subtle distinction without a meaningful difference.

This isn't something you said once, casually, in passing. It's a point you made, over and over and over again, in this and other threads, often in such a way as a reader might draw the conclusion you thought I was ripping people off.

Indeed, you've frequently made additional comments, suggesting you knew my costs, and that they were absurdly low compared to my prices. You've flat out asked me about my costs on other occasions.

All in all, your many posts about it made your purchase of an NTH quite the surprise. And while you've posted pics of your watch enough to make it look like you're happy with it, I've yet to see you make any comments suggesting you changed your position, or regret any of your previous posts on the topic.



JLS36 said:


> Watches are basically about what you want to spend for me $700 and under seems to be the Crux.


And yet, you've started threads, or posted in them, regarding what good value you seem to think Monta and Astor & Banks are, despite the Montas being $1700, and the A&B being $850.

Seems like you've been selective about which brands you think need to be under $700 - by a lot - and which brands you think should be more....



JLS36 said:


> The new skyquest gmt from Monta seems like a winner priced at just over $1700 on pre-order. Ya it's expensive for a micro but you can have it in your hands in a reasonable time. Bracelet looks great, and considering what other micros go for and the quality here $1700 doesn't seem insane. It's micro competition would be say oak and Oscar who sells for $1k more without bracelet and then you have mkii key West where you could put down a a deposit and possibly have a watch a decade later. Monta seems to be king of the hill for premium micro brands.





JLS36 said:


> Woke up today with plans on purchasing a nodus contrail, then i saw this...... I'm really digging it, value seems to be there.
> 
> https://www.astorandbanks.com/collections/sea-ranger/products/the-sea-ranger-2
> 
> ...





JLS36 said:


> I had a hard time with the subs because they started at $400 and now are $650.


Flat out wrong.

The in-stock, retail prices for the Subs started at $600/$625.

When we launched NTH, we did pre-orders, starting at $375/$400, but those were **PRE-ORDERS**. Those people waited **SIX MONTHS**. And those were the **STARTING** pre-order prices. We quickly raised prices by $25 at a time, based on how many we sold. By the end of the **VERY FIRST DAY** of pre-orders, we'd jumped through three $25 price tiers.

The average pre-order on the Subs was $500.

Since then, we've raised prices a whopping $50, from $600/$625 to $650/$675, barely 8%, since 2016. Barely enough to keep pace with inflation.

In that time, we've had cost increases - both production costs, and basic things like freight costs, utility costs, etc. My family needs to eat, too.

We've also improved quality - new bracelet and clasp, tighter QC standards, regulation to 1/2 of Miyota's accuracy spec, rhodium-plated dials, etc, etc, etc. Improved quality comes at an increased cost.

We've also improved our service in that time. Support requests are typically answered the same day. Repairs are usually turned around in days, sometimes hours. We extended our returns period from 30 days to 6 weeks, and added a 6 year movement guarantee to the 2 year warranty, both of which are transferable. We actually lowered our shipping costs.

We also stopped doing pre-orders. We only open sales when we have a model in stock, ready for delivery. We no longer use customers' money to finance our production costs. No more waiting.



JLS36 said:


> Knowing Zelos and obris produce cheaper and similar or better specs leads my opinion on value.


OM is a factory-owned brand, based in HK.

*[EDIT] *_- *I should say that I've been told OM is a factory-owned brand, by others within the industry. I've seen others say OM is factory-owned. OM appears to me and others to be factory-owned. I haven't seen anything to make me think OM is *NOT* factory owned. But of course, I can't *prove* OM is factory-owned. So form your own conclusions.*_

They're typically not maintaining standing inventories. When they come out with a new model, very often, it's so underpriced that it sells out in minutes, followed by widespread b1tching on the forums, from guys who didn't get one.

How do I know it's underpriced? Duh, it sells out in mere minutes. That's an inarguable sign that the watch is underpriced.

Zelos? In many ways, Zelos is similar. They're often underpricing their product, and are frequently well behind their delivery schedule. Zelos is often sold out - because they habitually under-price.

Many of my competitors under-price their products. Some are doing it because they run the business part-time (at best), and don't offer the same level of service we do. Some feel pressured to do it because they don't have the brand recognition we do. Some may offer the same specs and components, but the quality isn't the same. Some are just idiots.

NTH is frequently sold out. When we're not sold out, we're turning our inventory over at the right pace. To me, that's all the proof I need that we're not overcharging for what we sell.

Sold out = not overpriced. Turning inventory over every ~90 days, exactly as an inventory business should = not overpriced.

Comparing A to B, and determining A is "overpriced" because B seems similar, yet costs less, is idiotic. Watches aren't commodities, they're luxury goods, even at this price range. You want an OM or Zelos? Okay, go buy one. You want an NTH? We determine what they cost, not you.

The market determines if they're overpriced, and if we're always turning inventory over every 90 days, or even faster, leading to being sold out, then by definition, we're not overcharging.



JLS36 said:


> All that being said value is only part of the equation. I finally found a nth sub I loved the design of. And when in hand I loved it.


This, right here, is where we begin to understand each other.

I've long said, when someone deems A to be too expensive compared to B, at least with watches, what they're really saying is they don't like A enough compared to B, not enough to justify their purchase of A.

It's true, even in your case, given your acceptance of Monta's and A&B's pricing, which is even higher than mine. You like the Monta and A&B enough, your mind found reasons to think of them as good value. You didn't see any NTH you liked enough (until the Tikuna), your mind found reasons to think of them as poor value.

Why that led you to bang that drum the way you did is a question only you can answer. A lot of guys here think a lot of watches are overpriced. They don't run around making sure everyone else knows it, every chance they get.



JLS36 said:


> Finishing overall is above obris, but deciding if it's $300 above is a judgment call.


NTH finishing is better than many lower-priced brands with similar or identical specs and components. Better quality comes at a higher cost. At least now you're seeing that it *IS* better, even if you're not sure if it's *WORTH* it, to you. But, there again, at least you're finally able to admit that there's an aspect of this which is indeed a "judgment call", rather than being a matter of purely objective fact.



JLS36 said:


> I buy based on appearance and brand.


As do we all, I'd think, which makes comparisons between A & B based solely on specs and components precisely as idiotic as I've said, but at least you admit it. Why make price comparisons based solely on specs and components when your'e buying based on appearance and brand?

It never made any sense, and still doesn't.



JLS36 said:


> You produce a good product and stand behind it.


I do.



JLS36 said:


> I just disagree that it's a great value.


Ugh...then why buy it?

What do you think it's worth? Honestly? Tell me what your used Tikuna is worth, in your estimate, and I'll buy it back from you, right now, today, if it's even remotely reasonable.

Before you answer, understand asking that question puts you in an impossible situation. Lowball that number, I get that watch back from you for a song. Ask a stupid-high number, in order to get more money from me, you disprove your own claim that it's not good value for the money.

But, you tell me the number, what you think your watch is TRULY worth, right now, in its condition, and I'll buy it back from you, if that's what it takes to get you to stop banging that drum.



JLS36 said:


> I buy what I like and if it's under 700 and from a brand I respect I'll pull the trigger.


No reasonable person who's seen all your posts about NTH, and about me, would ever believe you respected either.



JLS36 said:


> Again maybe I've worded my arguments wrong, overpriced isn't the fight term, but I do feel it's lacking in value. I will say that you sell out so the market disagrees with me.


Value is subjective, but, to be fair, also relative.

NTH is NOT great value compared to Obris Morgan, among several other brands. OM habitually underprices their watches. Compared to brands which underprice, we'll never look like great value.

NTH is phenomenal value compared to many brands which are higher priced. I routinely have people tell me they compare favorably to anything you can get at 2x-3x the price, and the bang for the buck is off the chart compared to many well-known luxury brands.

Honestly, candidly, sincerely - I can't reconcile your purchase and on-the-one-hand positive comments with your long history of overly negative comments. It you respect me and/or the brand, you'd be doing me a favor, and earning others' respect, if you just came out and said you changed your mind, and were wrong before, or if you sold me your watch, so I can relieve your suffering with a watch that isn't good value, and you never bought another NTH.

Say you were wrong, and changed your mind about NTH, or sell me that overpriced watch for what you think it's TRULY worth. I need you to do one or the other, or just go away.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> FWIW, in my (USA, Maine) state, we legalized auto knives when we did Constitutional Carry (concealed carry of firearms without a permit), so I often ponder the cost of a switchblade... but nowadays, some affordable watch usually catches my eye and keeps my priorities straight.


There are lots of assisted openers these days that are more practical and reliable than switchblades, IMO. My EDC is a Kershaw Blur (along with the little Swiss Army Knife for the scissors, tweezers, and toothpick), which is very affordable, if a bit thicker and heavier than the higher end brands. It's an ideal one-handed knife for me, though the Kershaw Leek mentioned by RmacMD is a great choice for a smaller, slimmer assisted opener.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> short answer is no.


Short answer:

Its amusing that people who spend money on jewellery talk about value. 
I guess its a psychological mechanism to justify wasting money on watches for some.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> I think this here is the basis for much of the "overpriced" arguments. Pricing is manufacturer driven and only Chris and his accountant know if the watches are overpriced or not.
> 
> To say in business, economics indicates that there is sweet spot with pricing which maximizes profit, with demand and supply in balance. And the way runs of NTH models sell out, they seem to be in that sweet spot, which, divorced from expenses, means that the watches are probably not overpriced. The Market attests to that.
> 
> ...


Very nicely put sir |>

....the whole debate started me thinking back to other watches with similarities to the NTH, firstly the Raven Vintage 40mm I had, very rare and sought after and when initially sold quite expensive. Nicely made and good value (subjectively). Second the MKII KeyWest, ok so it's a gmt and hand assembled in the US, but it was double (if not more pre-owned) the price of the NTH and I'd say the quality was no better than the NTH (fit of the SELs on the MKII was a f*cking nightmare). I'm sure folks look on the MKII's as vfm but probably because of the ultimate homage thing. There's a thought, NTH gmt with a pan-am styling, bet they'd sell like hotcakes.


----------



## TgeekB (Nov 1, 2015)

I collect a lot of old pocket knives (Case xx, Schrade, etc) but my edc are simply SAK’s that I also collect from the 1970’s. No need for anything more and they get the job done. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## TgeekB (Nov 1, 2015)

Seikogi said:


> Short answer:
> 
> Its amusing that people who spend money on jewellery talk about value.
> I guess its a psychological mechanism to justify wasting money on watches for some.


It's exactly that.
Let's face it, who NEEDS a watch these days especially more than 1? Value is simply that random number we each pick out that justifies said purchase. Nothing more.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

MaxIcon said:


> There are lots of assisted openers these days that are more practical and reliable than switchblades, IMO. My EDC is a Kershaw Blur (along with the little Swiss Army Knife for the scissors, tweezers, and toothpick), which is very affordable, if a bit thicker and heavier than the higher end brands. It's an ideal one-handed knife for me, though the Kershaw Leek mentioned by RmacMD is a great choice for a smaller, slimmer assisted opener.


Had a leek; lost it out of a pocket while cycling. Loved the spring assist opening, but decided that for the price of losing it, a knife with a thumb-stud which enables 1-handed opening would do the trick just as well... at a cheaper price.

Of course I've never lost the cheaper knife... Will give this to Kershaw, though -- I wrote them asking if I could buy some of the screws and nuts which hold the Shuffle together, never heard a thing, but about a week later, received a package from them containing half a dozen nuts and screws.

I'll revise my estimate of the Shuffle, however -- More like the Seiko 5 of the knife world, than the SKX007. I don't even know why anyone would buy any of those other overpriced knives...


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I miss this one.









I've been consolidating and simplifying, which has been very rewarding, but a NTH sub will always have a soft spot for me. And I bet I'll nab another.


----------



## MaxIcon (Oct 16, 2016)

The first time in quite a while I've swapped a bracelet for a strap, because this look is awesome. Still honeymooning with the Nazario Ghost.

I know, that's no Nazario in the background, but it's an ocean-going Ghost, and that's good enough for me!


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Very nicely put sir |>
> 
> ....the whole debate started me thinking back to other watches with similarities to the NTH, firstly the Raven Vintage 40mm I had, very rare and sought after and when initially sold quite expensive. Nicely made and good value (subjectively). Second the MKII KeyWest, ok so it's a gmt and hand assembled in the US, but it was double (if not more pre-owned) the price of the NTH and I'd say the quality was no better than the NTH (fit of the SELs on the MKII was a f*cking nightmare). I'm sure folks look on the MKII's as vfm but probably because of the ultimate homage thing. There's a thought, NTH gmt with a pan-am styling, bet they'd sell like hotcakes.


Re: mkii. If you wish to pay the premium for a "bench made" watch, go for it (or, if you want a 1:1 to the specific model BY cribs). But the price difference to the nth (or BY's ready-made models) is disproportionate to the quality difference (if any). Ive had three Kingstons and a Key West. They're not objectively "better" than the many NTHs I've owned.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

hwa said:


> Re: mkii. If you wish to pay the premium for a "bench made" watch, go for it (or, if you want a 1:1 to the specific model BY cribs). But the price difference to the nth (or BY's ready-made models) is disproportionate to the quality difference (if any). Ive had three Kingstons and a Key West. They're not objectively "better" than the many NTHs I've owned.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think we're agreeing on the MKIIs. Out of trying to avoid offence I didn't want to come outright with it and say that the hype surrounding MKII watches is just that hype and they are no better if not worse than NTH as far as quality goes and I'm framing that with an eye on the price difference.......

On the l key west I had the spring bars weren't engaging fully into the lug holes and you could see one spring bar was bending just to stay in place. I contacted MKII and to their credit they were responsive/helpful, but the advice that I should try the SELs switched around as they "each have a custom fit" staggered me. Needless to say I did as advised and it just swapped the problem to the other lug. I'd say the Barracuda I have has a better gilt dial, it seems much clearer/stronger/distinct (I'm struggling with a way to describe it.....) than the key west.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> I think we're agreeing on the MKIIs. Out of trying to avoid offence I didn't want to come outright with it and say that the hype surrounding MKII watches is just that hype and they are no better if not worse than NTH as far as quality goes and I'm framing that with an eye on the price difference.......
> 
> On the l key west I had the spring bars weren't engaging fully into the lug holes and you could see one spring bar was bending just to stay in place. I contacted MKII and to their credit they were responsive/helpful, but the advice that I should try the SELs switched around as they "each have a custom fit" staggered me. Needless to say I did as advised and it just swapped the problem to the other lug. I'd say the Barracuda I have has a better gilt dial, it seems much clearer/stronger/distinct (I'm struggling with a way to describe it.....) than the key west.


On the gilt, id go kingston > bvb > key west

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Re: mkii. If you wish to pay the premium for a "bench made" watch, go for it (or, if you want a 1:1 to the specific model BY cribs). But the price difference to the nth (or BY's ready-made models) is disproportionate to the quality difference (if any). Ive had three Kingstons and a Key West. They're not objectively "better" than the many NTHs I've owned.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


TRUE STORY -

For years after starting Lew & Huey, guys were telling me I should make a MilSub homage. I never even considered doing it, at all. I flat out rejected the idea, repeatedly.

When asked for my reasons, or if I felt enough pressure to think I should give them, I'd say they basically boiled down to the simple fact that there were already so many MilSub (or for that mater, just Sub in general) homages out there. Not only did the genre not interest me very much, personally, or as the designer/owner of a watch brand, but I didn't feel I had anything to add to that mix, stylistically, nor did I think there was any business case to be made for making a Sub homage.

Things went on like that, for years.

Until HWA.

HWA is one of a dozen or two dozen guys who were repeat customers/friends since I first launched my brand, what I thought of as my "inner circle". We were in his car, leaving a GTG down in DC, when he started in on that topic, "You should make a Sub homage, Chris."

Like him or not, it's possible, if not likely, you've seen HWA can be somewhat...what's the word I'm looking for here...not just persistent, not dogmatic, not bombastic, not brash...but...you know what I mean. He has a certain way with some of his comments. If you think he's just that way because he's on the internet, I can tell you, he isn't. He is EXACTLY that way in person, if not more so.

Friend or no, after standing around talking watches for the last two hours, and having been in his company for at least an hour before that, and probably having just shot down this same suggestion within days prior, I kind of laid into him...

"Alright, smart guy, you tell me - why? Why should I make a Sub homage? Everyone's doing them. Why should I? What's missing in all those offerings from Steinhart, Squale, Tiger, Parnis, MKII, Kiger, Davosa, and all the others?"

Just like he was waiting for this moment, he rattled off a laundry list - too big, too thick, too flat, too expensive, too cheap, too long a wait, too off in the details, too this, too that...

HWA was one of the main instigators behind my producing alternative color dials for the Orthos (and then the Cerberus), so guys could mod them. In retrospect, I could have skipped doing that, so this time, I wasn't ready to start forming business plans just based on one conversation with him.

So...I turned to the "FanMEN", my inner circle, to start fleshing this out some more. We pulled Aaron into the discussion, since he was a known Sub fan, and so he could run illustrations. We got a handful of BSHT guys involved. I asked which Subs versions we should emulate, and in what ways, but also, what did we absolutely need to improve upon, when compared to existing Sub homages?

From the many suggestions and must-have's, I formed a set of mission-critical parameters for what would become the NTH Subs - big-crown, no crown guards case; 40mm diameter with great ergonomics; high spec, yet as thin as possible; under $700; no long wait; great quality; and a mix of iconic styling cues. We got Rusty to start designing the case.

We benchmarked against a lot of different brands, but MKII was the main "bogey". The goal was to come up with something as close as we could get, if not equal to the MKII in quality, but under $700, and aside from a "normal" (read: "under 6 months") pre-order period, no long wait.

As a cherry on top, we lumed the crown insignia. NTH was the first microbrand to do that (followed a few months later by Zelos). We took the extra step of having Tritec make a custom lume-mix, which would look metallic gray in the daylight.

We hit all the goals we set for the project. I've asked guys with MKII's to compare them to the NTH Subs, and while most tell me they think the MKII's are better, I can't remember any of them giving a very definitive reason why. It's often a "feel" thing, for whatever that's worth, much like NTH watches often "feel" better than some other brands with similar or identical specs and components.

And, to this day, four years later, not one brand has been able to best NTH with equal or higher WR, in a case as thin or thinner, including a domed crystal, at the price or lower.

Trust me, I know what I'm saying. It's still unbeaten, when you make apples-to-apples comparisons.

The Orion Calamity is 0.2mm thinner, but it has 100m less WR, and costs more than double, thanks to the ETA 2892, which is a bit thinner than the 9015, but a lot more expensive.

The Borealis Portus Cale was also 0.2mm thinner, but it has a flat crystal, not domed.

My OEM told me I was the biggest pain in the a$$ client he's ever had, because of what I put his team through, negotiating the thinness of the NTH Subs, and that he'd never do that for me or anyone else, ever again, so long as he was in business.

"Biggest pain in the factory's a$$" - I can live with that title, easily.

HWA?

He's remains one of the biggest pains in mine.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> I think we're agreeing on the MKIIs. Out of trying to avoid offence I didn't want to come outright with it and say that the hype surrounding MKII watches is just that hype and they are no better if not worse than NTH as far as quality goes and I'm framing that with an eye on the price difference.......
> 
> On the l key west I had the spring bars weren't engaging fully into the lug holes and you could see one spring bar was bending just to stay in place. I contacted MKII and to their credit they were responsive/helpful, but the advice that I should try the SELs switched around as they "each have a custom fit" staggered me. Needless to say I did as advised and it just swapped the problem to the other lug. I'd say the Barracuda I have has a better gilt dial, it seems much clearer/stronger/distinct (I'm struggling with a way to describe it.....) than the key west.


To be fair, about the spring bars and lug holes...

I routinely find it can be difficult to get spring bars to seat correctly. Not on every watch, no, but it's happened to me often enough that I dread trying to re-attach a bracelet to one of my watches.

Shortest version explanation - the tolerances are very, very, very, tight, if you want good quality, with no rattling, and little to no daylight between the links and the case. If that bar is even slightly bent, or if the hole on either side of the lugs isn't perfectly aligned with the hole in the end-link, it can make it difficult to get both ends of the spring bar to seat correctly.

I've heard of one other brand which literally drills each end-link to mate to a case, such that they're not all interchangeable (the bracelets for that model can't be fitted to every case of that model), but I'm not sure what I heard is even true. If it is, that seems...less than ideal, to me, knowing what I do about this stuff, as well as customers' tendencies and expectations.

That said, when I've had issues, I do sometimes find that swapping the end-links around to mate them to the other lugs makes life easier, though not always, and not nearly often enough to make me think that's a "good" solution. I can't specifically remember telling any customers reporting difficulty to try doing that, but I may have.

About the gilt dial...

I asked James "Fullers1845" from the BSHT how he thought the gilt dial on the Carolina compared to his beloved MKII Kingston. He said the Kingston's was better, owing to the fact that its underlying gold surface was polished, whereas the Carolina's appeared to be brushed.

Having gotten that feedback, from him, but also others, I told our OEM to see if we could get a more polished appearance on the base surface on the Barracudas. From what I can tell, we did.

Aside from MKII, I'm not aware of any other brands currently producing watches with gilt-relief dials (assuming you think of MKII as being "current" with production). It's a difficult technique, resulting in a higher dial defect rate. Apparently it's difficult to find a dial supplier who will even attempt it.

I can't help but bring it back to the topic of "NTH's are overpriced" - I mean...the Subs are still among the thinnest 300m WR diving watches on the planet, in the affordable range, with all the features they have, etc, etc, etc. I think their attributes make them worth the asking price, if not more, and the vast majority of the feedback I've gotten about them only confirms that, emphatically.

But, I own the company, so I'm biased, and I'm the only one who knows my production and operating costs, so everyone else can only speculate, or just form subjective opinions, for whatever those are worth.


----------



## Ragl (Jun 22, 2016)

Meanwhile, out in watch wearing land.........

Tikuna, yeah........

















Cheerz,

Alan


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

docvail said:


> The in-stock, retail prices for the Subs started at $600/$625.
> 
> Since then, we've raised prices a whopping $50, from $600/$625 to $650/$675, barely 8%, since 2016. Barely enough to keep pace with inflation.
> 
> ...


Because it's my dead horse, and I'll beat if I want to...

We launched NTH in April of 2016.

$600 in April of 2016 would be $644.42 by December of 2019, according to the CPI inflation calculator available at the Bureau of Labor Statistics website:









Source - https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

Our prices on the Subs which started out at $600 are now $650, less than $6 more than the inflation-adjusted price (ending last year - we've not raised prices this year, yet).

For an inflation-adjusted $6 price increase, you got a better bracelet, better clasp, tighter QC standards, better overall quality, accuracy specs cut in half, rhodium-plated dials, a 2 week-longer returns policy, a 6 year movement guarantee, lower shipping costs (despite shipping costs always going up), and faster pre- and post-sale support.

If you bought from one of our two main retailers, you got some sort of nice add-on from Keil, or if you bought from Kaj in the Netherlands, you might have gotten a delicious Stroopwafel.

Seems like you got a lot for that extra $6.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Met up with watchmaker Dan for a liquid lunch and first look at the new Tropics prototypes today...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

docvail said:


> Met up with watchmaker Dan for a liquid lunch and first look at the new Tropics
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


Wow. They look great!!!!


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

docvail said:


> Met up with watchmaker Dan for a liquid lunch and first look at the new Tropics prototypes today...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You big tease, that orange looks interesting

Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

My Amphion Vintage Blue says hello from Evian, France (yes that Evian, the source spring is 10 minutes walk from my hotel).









Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

docvail said:


> HWA?
> 
> He's remains one of the biggest pains in mine.


He did get me to spend an inordinate amount of $ recently, but I still kinda like him too.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



GlenRoiland said:


> Wow. They look great!!!!


They're a work in progress.

We just got sample dials. There were a few things I wanted to do differently on the next Tropics, with the dials, so I just asked them to send me some sample dials, so I could see how these things worked out in real life.

For the most part, I'm happy, but there are a couple small things I want to speak to my supplier about. They pass the naked eye test, but close examination under the loupe shows some things that I'm sure some folks will find objectionable. My hope is we can sort them out for mass production, when we get there, hopefully not too much later this year.

I'd given Dan the original prototypes from the first run to keep in his shop, to use as parts donors, if or when needed. When we got the dial samples, I asked him to swap them into the original prototype cases.

It seems I'm an idiot - Dan informed me that the original Tropics handsets have a different shade of lume than what we spec'd for the new Azores dial, so the handset doesn't match the dial.

And in both cases, the new dials are a little thicker than the originals, due to some of the changes we made. The fit inside those cases is so tight that you can't turn the internal bezels, at all. We already knew that we'd be increasing some of the internal clearances on the new case, but I'll have to review them again, just to make sure we're on the safe side.



Omegafanboy said:


> You big tease, that orange looks interesting
> 
> Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


Call me a tease if you like. I can live with that. Better to be a tease than an outright $lut, perhaps.

I don't like showing protos when I know that A) they're not yet production quality, B) my photo skills are less than a left-handed chimpanzee's, and C) at least a few of my competitors have a habit of lurking in this thread, some of whom have proven they can't resist lifting good ideas. I like to hold my cards a bit closer to the vest these days.

The "orange" isn't exactly that. I'm trying to decide if it's "honey wheat" or "amber", but there's a definite brownish-orange tint to it.

There's also a new bracelet design, not pictured yet, obviously.

How's that for a tease?


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

Seikogi said:


> TheBearded said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just a few minutes North of Dallas. Suburb called Richardson.
> ...


Decently close. He's out in Weatherford I think. Around 60mi from me.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

docvail said:


> Call me a tease if you like. I can live with that. Better to be a tease than an outright $lut, perhaps.
> 
> I don't like showing protos when I know that A) they're not yet production quality, B) my photo skills are less than a left-handed chimpanzee, and C) at least a few of my competitors have a habit of lurking in this thread, some of whom have proven they can't resist lifting good ideas. I like to hold my cards a bit closer to the vest these days.


glad you didn't reveal the chronograph prototypes yet ...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Seikogi said:


> glad you didn't reveal the chronograph prototypes yet ...
> 
> View attachment 14821437


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

The Sauro has landed! Its gorgeous. Cant wait to flaunt it tomorrow. Tossed a lil' nugget in there for you too Seikogi. Recognize it?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Speaking of lug holes and spring bars, anyone here ever seen a defective spring bar like this?

Had a guy email me to say he couldn't get the one end of the spring bar from his beads of poop to go into the lugs.

I've never seen this before. Looks like someone jammed the head of a bracelet screw into the spring bar tube.









Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I am here to help, brother. Homages are not for everyone, and I won't say otherwise. But if you're in the market for one, NTH fills the bill, something like 34 different ways and counting.

But I keep saying: buy the seller, whatever the product. Chris gets that, and that's why I and others have his back.



docvail said:


> TRUE STORY -
> 
> For years after starting Lew & Huey, guys were telling me I should make a MilSub homage. I never even considered doing it, at all. I flat out rejected the idea, repeatedly.
> 
> ...


----------



## captainmorbid (Mar 3, 2016)

docvail said:


> Speaking of lug holes and spring bars, anyone here ever seen a defective spring bar like this?
> 
> Had a guy email me to say he couldn't get the one end of the spring bar from his beads of poop to go into the lugs.
> 
> ...


I think I have seen that... It looks like the seat that the lug end sits in. But it's not supposed to stick out of the bar tube.. I had a spring bar explosion when trying to fit a bracelet, when i finally located the bar(probably days if not weeks later) one end looked like that. I have hundreds of spares, so I tossed it after a chuckle. Must've had too much spring tension?

Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

just held up the mirror when I saw the indecision... That Explorer wears well, though, doesn't it!



Twehttam said:


> He did get me to spend an inordinate amount of $ recently, but I still kinda like him too.


----------



## TheBearded (Jan 8, 2020)

docvail said:


> Met up with watchmaker Dan for a liquid lunch and first look at the new Tropics prototypes today...
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


C'mon! You cant just throw a pic up like that with em just off in the background!


----------



## bbrou33 (Aug 16, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

I think I need to get me one of those BoP bracelets

Speaking of thinness, I was admiring how thin this watch was earlier today while sitting on the throne. It's incredible










I need more wrists


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

captainmorbid said:


> I think I have seen that... It looks like the seat that the lug end sits in. But it's not supposed to stick out of the bar tube.. I had a spring bar explosion when trying to fit a bracelet, when i finally located the bar(probably days if not weeks later) one end looked like that. I have hundreds of spares, so I tossed it after a chuckle. Must've had too much spring tension?
> 
> Sent from a vague location via Tapatalk


Dammit!

Why didn't I think of that?

I suspect you are precisely correct. I believe that is the "correct" spring-bar end, just turned the wrong way.

FUN FACT - When I visited China in 2018, to tour some vendors' facilities, it seems our clasp supplier also owns a spring bar factory, and insisted on taking us there, to watch spring bars being made.

Look at me. Do I look like a guy who gives a flying f**k how spring bars are made?

No. No I do not.

But, it's China, and business courtesy is a big deal there (judging by how many tea ceremonies I sat through), so if the clasp guy wants to show you spring bars being made, you go look at spring bars being made.

Sooooooo glad I went. Truly. That was one of the most amazing things I saw on that trip, or on any trip, anywhere, before or since.

Spring bars aren't made by hand, at all. This place looked like something out of "The Matrix". Wall to wall, it was filled with abdomen-height machines, poking tiny springs into tiny tubes, and capping them off with those tiny tips. Ker-chunk, ker-chunk, ker-chunk...

There was one guy walking around, feeding the different parts into little feeder basins perched on top of the machines. The machines do all of the sorting, orienting the little parts correctly, and assembly.

I'd think something like that should really never happen. But now I'm wondering how often it does. We receive the watches with bracelets or straps already attached. If our assemblers are getting a lot of those, we'd never know it, because they'd reject them during assembly.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

TheBearded said:


> C'mon! You cant just throw a pic up like that with em just off in the background!


Can and did.

Gotta sit tight.

Next up are the Amphion Vintage Gilt, the Oberon II, and the updated Nacken Vintage Black.

Then, I think we'll probably make more of the DevilRay.

After that, I'm not sure, but maybe we'll produce more of the Tropics, or produce the XL Sub, or more of the 40mm Subs, or something else, if I can ever find time to work on it.

In addition to the reasons I gave above, I just don't like showing things before we're ready to set a delivery date for them. I shouldn't even be talking about them, just like I shouldn't have talked about the XL Sub. I don't want guys getting excited, asking me when ______ will be done. It's like being back in a job, with a boss riding my a$$ for my TPS reports.

I suppose the only reason I do it is the same reason I see other brands saying things like, "after two years of development..."

Best case scenario, the design to delivery process can take a year, give or take. Sometimes it can be less. We might be able to bang out a final design within a month, then get it right into production, for delivery 4-5 months later. So that would be 6 months.

But more often, we'll take 3-6 months to develop a new design. It'll take another month or 2 to get our vendors to consider it "final" and ready for production. Then another 4-6 months for production.

It ain't all just slapping your logo on $80 watches you find on AliBaba, then sitting back to collect your money. Here and there, we do some actual work. I'll spend two or three days just reviewing these dials with my vendor, discussing potential changes and aspects of quality. We still need to review the updated case. I haven't got the new bracelet in hand yet. I may have concerns about it.

Almost sounds like it's a "real" business, innit?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



bbrou33 said:


> I think I need to get me one of those BoP bracelets
> 
> Speaking of thinness, I was admiring how thin this watch was earlier today while sitting on the throne. It's incredible
> 
> ...


The beads of poop are nice, I ain't gonna lie.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Value is a very weird thing with watches. As a former Nacken Blue owner, (which I paid MSRP for) I've always said that I thought the asking price for an NTH sub is very fair. Not underpriced, not overpriced - fair. The market seems to agree, Doc has no trouble selling them, and resale values are pretty strong - basically what you would expect for a product that isn't unobtanium, but also doesn't haven an MSRP that's silly. If MKIIs were regular production watches, I do not think they'd have anywhere near the resale that they do.

The most expensive watches I own are my two LE Seiko cocktails, and my Diver's 65. You can buy a fairly similar 6R2x based Seiko for $500, so you could argue that these $1K Cocktails are poor values. But "fairly similar" isn't the same. You can buy a "fairly similar" Sub homage for less than an NTH. If anything, I find that a lot of the other competing sub homages are much more like each other (Squale and Steinhart for example) than they are like an NTH. It's up to the individual to decide if "fairly similar" is good enough.

My "Ocean Master Professional" on the one hand is a terrible value ($700+ for an SKX) but on the other hand is an amazing value (to me) because it has one of my absolute favorite Seiko dials, is a totally unique one-of-a-kind watch, and I _love_ the look of it. I wore it for more than a week straight after it was finally done, and had to almost force myself to take it off and put on something else. What we think about how a watch looks plays a *massive* role in our perception of the value of said watch.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Davekaye90 said:


> Value is a very weird thing with watches. As a former Nacken Blue owner, (which I paid MSRP for) I've always said that I thought the asking price for an NTH sub is very fair. Not underpriced, not overpriced - fair. The market seems to agree, Doc has no trouble selling them, and resale values are pretty strong - basically what you would expect for a product that isn't unobtanium, but also doesn't haven an MSRP that's silly. If MKIIs were regular production watches, I do not think they'd have anywhere near the resale that they do.
> 
> The most expensive watches I own are my two LE Seiko cocktails, and my Diver's 65. You can buy a fairly similar 6R2x based Seiko for $500, so you could argue that these $1K Cocktails are poor values. But "fairly similar" isn't the same. You can buy a "fairly similar" Sub homage for less than an NTH. If anything, I find that a lot of the other competing sub homages are much more like each other (Squale and Steinhart for example) than they are like an NTH. It's up to the individual to decide if "fairly similar" is good enough.


Truth. lots of guys around here have a wide-range of price points in their collections. Some I do think are nicer than others, but certainly not per any kind of 1:1 value assessment I could begin to articulate. Simple fact: by what you like, if you can afford it, and who the hell cares what the relative value is, so long as you're happy with what you bought. Don't we all have some sliding scale in our heads that helps us decide whether to buy a particular thing, or not, based on perceived value vs. price? I think so. Which is why some I buy used, I'd never buy new.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

hwa said:


> Truth. lots of guys around here have a wide-range of price points in their collections. Some I do think are nicer than others, but certainly not per any kind of 1:1 value assessment I could begin to articulate. Simple fact: by what you like, if you can afford it, and who the hell cares what the relative value is, so long as you're happy with what you bought. Don't we all have some sliding scale in our heads that helps us decide whether to buy a particular thing, or not, based on perceived value vs. price? I think so. Which is why some I buy used, I'd never buy new.


Yep. Diver's 65s are $800-1100 or so on the used market. I think they are a solid buy at that price. $1800 from an A/D? NOPE.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Value is a very weird thing with watches. As a former Nacken Blue owner, (which I paid MSRP for) I've always said that I thought the asking price for an NTH sub is very fair. Not underpriced, not overpriced - fair. The market seems to agree, Doc has no trouble selling them, and resale values are pretty strong - basically what you would expect for a product that isn't unobtanium, but also doesn't haven an MSRP that's silly. If MKIIs were regular production watches, I do not think they'd have anywhere near the resale that they do.
> 
> The most expensive watches I own are my two LE Seiko cocktails, and my Diver's 65. You can buy a fairly similar 6R2x based Seiko for $500, so you could argue that these $1K Cocktails are poor values. But "fairly similar" isn't the same. You can buy a "fairly similar" Sub homage for less than an NTH. If anything, I find that a lot of the other competing sub homages are much more like each other (Squale and Steinhart for example) than they are like an NTH. It's up to the individual to decide if "fairly similar" is good enough.
> 
> My "Ocean Master Professional" on the one hand is a terrible value ($700+ for an SKX) but on the other hand is an amazing value (to me) because it has one of my absolute favorite Seiko dials, is a totally unique one-of-a-kind watch, and I _love_ the look of it. I wore it for more than a week straight after it was finally done, and had to almost force myself to take it off and put on something else. What we think about how a watch looks plays a *massive* role in our perception of the value of said watch.


Another example, a regular Seiko Bellmatic can be easily found under 300€. There is a rare edition with an ugly dolphin on the caseback and some different text on the dial. Rarely pops up for sale and can go over 1k.

The buyer who grabs it feels like the luckiest guy to have scored it and its great value for him as it gives him a lot more pleasure than the peasant models.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Seikogi said:


> Another example, a regular Seiko Bellmatic can be easily found under 300€. There is a rare edition with an ugly dolphin on the caseback and some different text on the dial. Rarely pops up for sale and can go over 1k.
> 
> The buyer who grabs it feels like the luckiest guy to have scored it and its great value for him as it gives him a lot more pleasure than the peasant models.


I'm feeling that way about Pogues. $600 for a wreck. Twice that'ish for a good one. Add service, carry the two ... 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> He did get me to spend an inordinate amount of $ recently, but I still kinda like him too.


Congrats. Can we see it?


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

3WR said:


> Congrats. Can we see it?


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> Another example, a regular Seiko Bellmatic can be easily found under 300€. There is a rare edition with an ugly dolphin on the caseback and some different text on the dial. Rarely pops up for sale and can go over 1k.
> 
> The buyer who grabs it feels like the luckiest guy to have scored it and its great value for him as it gives him a lot more pleasure than the peasant models.


Yeah I don't understand watch collectors sometimes. A nice 1680 Submariner is worth a decent chunk of change. "Submariner" written in RED though, double to triple the price. Because that one line of text is a different color. That's it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Twehttam said:


> View attachment 14821921


Socks, ftw!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Not looking to drag this out more than necessary, but...
> 
> Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm nearly certain I've seen you say they were "overpriced", using that exact term. But even if not, merely saying they "could/should be cheaper" seems like a subtle distinction without a meaningful difference.
> 
> ...


I enjoy the watch and don't want to sell it. I felt comfortable paying $650 and if you released another model I like I would pay $650 again.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

I own quite a few watches that I would not consider to be a good value. That by no means determines how much I personally enjoy them. I mean I did buy them! I think the sapphire sandwich is not a great value, but I love mine! Even worse is the Seiko SJE073. Insane price for a Seiko, but it spoke to me and I love it. 

I think NTH is a good value due to the details. That thin case is what attracted me to the SJE as well as the subs, and I put a premium on that by itself, let alone the fun designs. And then I got the Carolina and to me, it is a great value! How many gilt relief dials do you see at this price point? Hell, when I was part of a group buy for gilt relief dials, they were well over $100. Just for the dial! And now the maker won't even make them anymore due to how difficult the process was and the high reject rate. The fact that the BVB exists, for regular sub prices is incredible.

The whole value thing is such an intangible. 

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Twehttam said:


> View attachment 14821921


Sorry, I can't help it...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Lagania (Jan 21, 2020)

Oh I love this thread. I can’t wait to pick up one of those gilt relief dials.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> View attachment 14821921


Superlative!

Nice choice. Super cool watch.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> I enjoy the watch and don't want to sell it. I felt comfortable paying $650 and if you released another model I like I would pay $650 again.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


So...that's it?

Are you going to keep saying they're overpriced, or are you going to cut that $hlt out? Are you going to keep acting like we're cool, when we both know you've been running around trashing me, my brand, and anyone who speaks up in defense of either?



JLS36 said:


> I agree but people who follow vail do so with a religious like outlook. The reason why people get up in arms over the price of the nth is because vail tells anyone who will listen he's selling these things so close to cost he should raise the price(which he has done 2016-$400, 2020-$675) . Most brands stay an arms length about value and price not vail. His followers take the walls of texts like gospel. And any challenge to him or his watches brings it out. It's really to a point where it's clearly bullying being done by a group of them to keep threads and comments with any objectivity eliminated. From the public evidence it seems like vail is getting hosed here until more comes out I support vail and his outrage on this one.


I mean...you're so absolutely full of $hlt. It's laughable to see you talk about "objectivity", when you can't even be HONEST, or show the slightest shred of consistency, much less integrity.

Usually, when someone says they like an NTH they have, it fills me with pride. I love hearing that someone is enjoying my team's work. You're the exception. I don't want you to enjoy that watch, after all the $hlt you talked, and still talk, about me, my brand, and my friends.

I can't even pretend you're not trolling any more. You can't even admit you were wrong, even as you say you were comfortable spending the $650, and you'd spend it again.

Please, let that be the first, last, and only NTH you buy, if you're not man enough to admit you were way over the line, more than once, and can't even offer even the weakest semblance of an apology. I don't want your business.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks, guys! I love it. Fun story wrapped up in it as well. It’s hard to explain it.

And, yes, what fun is life without fun socks? 

Ps, still love the Scorp’lorer!

Pps, I will buy another sub one day my tiny 6” wrist be darned.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Davekaye90 said:


> Yeah I don't understand watch collectors sometimes. A nice 1680 Submariner is worth a decent chunk of change. "Submariner" written in RED though, double to triple the price. Because that one line of text is a different color. That's it.
> 
> View attachment 14821981


Tut tut tut...look at how awful that dial printing is. Truly terrible.

How dare they put "Superlative" on the dial? It's barely lative, much less super.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Davekaye90 said:


> Yeah I don't understand watch collectors sometimes. A nice 1680 Submariner is worth a decent chunk of change. "Submariner" written in RED though, double to triple the price. Because that one line of text is a different color. That's it.
> ]


Legend says, Roger Federer time travelled and applied the font using his own blood.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> I'm feeling that way about Pogues. $600 for a wreck. Twice that'ish for a good one. Add service, carry the two ...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Remember five years ago, when you could get a decent-condition Pogue for about $300-$400?

Remember I just gave Rusty my birth-year Pogue?

Remember that, if you ever hear Rusty whinging about what a slave-driver I am.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lagania said:


> Oh I love this thread. I can't wait to pick up one of those gilt relief dials.


First forum post for the win!


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

And a pic. Just because who doesn't love pics? The watch my wife gave me on our wedding day. Crazy that two of my 3 watches I will never sell are NTHs. (The other being Carolina and ironically a Pogue my FIL gave me that he bought new)









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> How dare they put "Superlative" on the dial?


"Superlative chronometer" truly is a joke. Rolex mechanicals (like all mechanicals) stopped being "superlative chronometers" in October 1960, when the first Bullova Accutrons landed on store shelves. Today, any $10 watch from the drug store is a better chronometer than a Rolex mechanical.

(And here I am using the dictionary definition of "chronometer" as "time measurer", and not the hijacking of the word by the ISO.)


----------



## Lagania (Jan 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> Lagania said:
> 
> 
> > Oh I love this thread. I can't wait to pick up one of those gilt relief dials.
> ...


Yep first post. I have been creeping for 400 pages and it's so much fun reading I couldn't help myself any longer. Finally signed up. I love how involved you are with all of the fans of your products.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> "Superlative chronometer" truly is a joke. Rolex mechanicals (like all mechanicals) stopped being "superlative chronometers" in October 1960, when the first Bullova Accutrons landed on store shelves. Today, any $10 watch from the drug store is a better chronometer than a Rolex mechanical.
> 
> (And here I am using the dictionary definition of "chronometer" as "time measurer", and not the hijacking of the word by the ISO.)


I mean...yeah, okay, we all know quartz watches are more accurate than mechanicals, generally, usually, when you compare the averages of each, as a group.

But...it is pretty amazing to see what can be done with the performance of a mechanical movement. Honestly, I respect Rolex's +2/-2 secs/day range. Hopefully people know my earlier post was tongue-in-cheek.

The Charles Frodsham double-impulse chronometer holds the Guiness record for accuracy in a mechanical watch movement. It's +/- five eighths of one second, every 100 days.

Unless my math is wrong, that's 0.19 seconds per *month*.That's more accurate than the majority of quartz watches.

Now *THAT* is a truly superlative chronometer.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lagania said:


> Yep first post. I have been creeping for 400 pages and it's so much fun reading I couldn't help myself any longer. Finally signed up. I love how involved you are with all of the fans of your products.


Careful, Bud.

Some hater might accuse you of being a fanboi.


----------



## Lagania (Jan 21, 2020)

docvail said:


> Careful, Bud.
> 
> Some hater might accuse you of being a fanboi.


Yea, I guess I would deserve that. 
Better off creeping and watching everyone get mad about bracelets while I glue my Seiko chapter rings into alignment.


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Speaking of lug holes and spring bars, anyone here ever seen a defective spring bar like this?
> 
> Had a guy email me to say he couldn't get the one end of the spring bar from his beads of poop to go into the lugs.
> 
> I've never seen this before. Looks like someone jammed the head of a bracelet screw into the spring bar tube.


That "fat pin" is installed upside-down.


----------



## The Watcher (Jan 27, 2013)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



bbrou33 said:


> I think I need to get me one of those BoP bracelets
> 
> Speaking of thinness, I was admiring how thin this watch was earlier today while sitting on the throne. It's incredible
> 
> ...


great photo.

to me, this model is the epitome of what i like most about the nth subs - the very simple dial combination and very simple bezel with no minute hash marks/whatever you guys call 'em. thin, super versatile and super readable


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> The Charles Frodsham double-impulse chronometer holds the Guiness record for accuracy in a mechanical watch movement. It's +/- five eighths of one second, every 100 days.


That record is held by an enormous grandfather-sized CLOCK, sitting perfectly still on a flat floor! (The dude also makes watch movements, but they're nowhere near that accurate.)






And it's simply a fact that Rolex's +/- 2 s/d (a goal not always achieved, check the Rolex forums) is inferior to the +/- 0.5 s/d you can expect to get from most any cheapie quartz movement.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

*Re: NTH and L&amp;H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Avo said:


> That record is held by an enormous grandfather-sized CLOCK, sitting perfectly still on a flat floor! (The dude also makes watch movements, but they're nowhere near that accurate.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True, but we don't buy mechanical watches solely for their accuracy correct? If accuracy was the be all end all, we would just check our phones or buy atomic watches.

You have to love that tiny mechanical object ticking away with cogs and gears built to such a tight tolerance that it is able to achieve such remarkable accuracy.

Just like how a modern Honda accord is faster than a vintage 911. One's specs are better, but the other puts a much bigger smile on your face when you dip into the throttle and clip the apex coming out of turn 3.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I love mechanical watches, I own a bunch and plan to buy more.

But "superlative chronometers" they ain't, no matter what Rolex or anybody else prints on the dial, and no matter how much the ISO tries to twist the definition of a word whose meaning is obvious (and has been in use with the same obvious meaning for centuries).

https://www.etymonline.com/word/chronometer


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> That record is held by an enormous grandfather-sized CLOCK, sitting perfectly still on a flat floor! (The dude also makes watch movements, but they're nowhere near that accurate.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems I may have been mistaken. I was under the impression their record was for the watch movement, which I believe is a miniature version of Harrison's H4 - accurate to less than 1 second every 100 days.

I couldn't find any mention of the watch's accuracy, but they're adjusted to 6 positions, at 3 temperatures, over a month.

I'd be willing to bet it's under 1 second every 100 days, which is better than many quartz watches, particularly the cheaper ones. The decent Japanese quartz modules run +/- 20 seconds per month.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Avo said:


> I love mechanical watches, I own a bunch and plan to buy more.
> 
> But "superlative chronometers" they ain't, no matter what Rolex or anybody else prints on the dial, and no matter how much the ISO tries to twist the definition of a word whose meaning is obvious (and has been in use with the same obvious meaning for centuries).
> 
> https://www.etymonline.com/word/chronometer


I would argue that from a mechanical standpoint, they are indeed superlative chronometers. Yes it may be an outdated technology, but they are a step above your average mechanical watch on a consistent basis. Comparing them to quartz is like comparing an F1 car from the late 80's/early 90's to a modern F1 car. While technology has advanced them, they lack a certain charm. And it takes an impressive driver to handle an 80's F1 car without traction control/tire compound advancements/downforce the same way it takes a mechanical watchmaker some serious skill to consistently make +/- 2spd watches.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

The Ronda is more accurate than the Vacheron, and I couldn't care less about that. The Vacheron is mechanical artwork, and you can't help but feel awestruck by how much of that is done by incredibly skilled watchmakers, by hand. It's like comparing a sculpture to a rock you found in your driveway.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

docvail said:


> I'd be willing to bet it's under 1 second every 100 days


Really? The big grandfather-sized clock with the enormous pendulum was just a tiny bit better than that, 5/8 second over 100 days. You think you can shrink that down to the size of a watch, put it on a moving wrist, and only be off by another 3/8 second over 100 days?



Dub Rubb said:


> While technology has advanced them, they lack a certain charm.





Davekaye90 said:


> The Vacheron is mechanical artwork


If Rolex or Vacheron wants to put "superlative charm" or "superlative artwork" on the dial, it's fine with me.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

At these prices, I’ll take a Miyota 9015 and pocket the difference.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Just cause I adore this NTH......




























.....this is my previous date model, haven't gotten around to photographing the no date version yet.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Regarding accuracy, I recently had two watches both get "off" by over 30 sec/day. Checked to see if either was magnetized, and nope. One, was a Swiss movement with an unusual complication, the other a 9015. I sent the Swiss to a local watchmaker to get it regulated, and he called me after a couple of days to let me know there was an issue with the movement. And so, back to the AD it went. $78 in postage just for starters. sigh. 
And so now I had the 9015. I found @ratfacedgit's YouTube video, watched it a couple of times, and regulated the 9015 myself with an iPhone app and a tiny screw driver in about 10 minutes. It's been keeping about +3 sec/day since. I might even try to slim that down a bit. 
The 9015 is an awesome movement, IMHO...


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

One of those Alibaba specials. Best $650 i ever paid for an$80 watch! You talk about value?! You don't know value!!


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

I don't disagree about "Superlative Chronometer", but I see it as a nod to history, primarily. ;-)

That said, since I've had it it has remained +2s/d. Not shabby for a 12-year old, not yet serviced movement. Works for me.

Ultimately, accuracy was not the main reason I bought the Explorer. There's really too much to write here and doing so will sound like some sort of purchase justification, which isn't necessary. In short, I'm happy.

And I also have great memories with the NTHs I've owned. Although now on another owner's wrist in this thread, I'll wrap up with this guy. I could see finding another one of these...









Thought from an earlier post I read... I do have a beautiful Bell-Matic - maybe I'll post in the trade forum and see if anyone is up for a 1:1 sub swap...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> Really? The big grandfather-sized clock with the enormous pendulum was just a tiny bit better than that, 5/8 second over 100 days. You think you can shrink that down to the size of a watch, put it on a moving wrist, and only be off by another 3/8 second over 100 days?
> 
> If Rolex or Vacheron wants to put "superlative charm" or "superlative artwork" on the dial, it's fine with me.


I'm assuming your question is literal, not rhetorical.

If anyone could do it, I think they could.

Not sure if you missed it, but I met Richard Stenning, one of the owners of Frodsham's while I was in London, spent some time talking to him, and saw the watch for myself (not that seeing it added anything to my understanding of it, nor did I see it on a timegrapher, so it added nothing to my knowledge of its accuracy).

I wish I could remember how I came to believe the Guiness record was for their watch. I'm sorry I said that as much as I have. I'm sure I heard it mentioned in some discussion about the Frodsham's watch, and connected the two due to the context.

But, therein lies the basis for my belief, as well as my confusion regarding several related parties and their accomplishments - we were discussing the Frodsham's watch, as well their team's recreation of Harrison's H3 and H4, their completion of Burgess's Regulator B (the clock which set the record), and their successful miniaturization of George Daniels' double-impulse pocket watch movement. They even added a power reserve indicator to Daniels' design. Clearly, they are true masters of their craft.

Read more here:

https://www.alphaluxe.com/2019/03/hands-on-charles-frodsham-double-impulse-chronometer/

As watchmakers, that team at Frodsham's is the best in the world, bar none, given the totality of their accomplishments.

Again, I was NOT able to find any reference to the accuracy of their movement. I am only relying on my memory of several discussions about Frodsham's and that watch, with Stenning and others.

I don't know why there's no mention of the accuracy. Perhaps it's uncouth, given their status as Royal Clockmakers, and the low-volume they produce (fewer than 20 pieces per year). Maybe it's a British tendency not to brag about such things.

Whatever the reason, I can only go by what I am certain I was told or what I've read, and from there, I'd be inferring the rest, drawing conclusions.

My inference is that their movement is likely the most accurate mechanical wrist watch movement in the world. I probably wouldn't want to go out on a limb and bet much money that it's more accurate than most quartz movements. At the same time, it wouldn't shock me, as I already thought that, and it already shocked me the first time.

I can't prove how accurate it is. That would be up to them, or up to others to disprove, I suppose.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Twehttam said:


> In short, I'm happy.


Frankly, this is the only reason for this hobby IMHO, and the only justification necessary for any watch purchase. I wish more realized that.


----------



## rscaletta (May 28, 2015)

Today's watch:










(Makes me excited about upcoming gilt amphion)

And re: timekeeping, even today's "high accuracy" quartz are pretty garbage when you think about it. Even the best stuff is basically a stepper motor and a coil, 70's tech stuffed in a watch case.

Atomic is where it's at, and any cheapo microcontroller can use the network time protocol (NTP) to get perfect accuracy (+/- 0), essentially indefinitely. Really makes an expensive "Swiss Quartz" watch look silly.

I think that's why I like mechanicals-essentially because they're overly complicated and hopelessly obsolete. Getting any kind of decent timekeeping out of them should be regarded as an engineering achievement


----------



## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

docvail said:


> I shouldn't even be talking about them, just like I shouldn't have talked about the XL Sub. I don't want guys getting excited, asking me when ______ will be done.


Wearing a Planet Ocean as I type this. I sold my first gen Näcken Modern because it wore slightly too small for my tastes in a diver. No pressure intended at all -- just to remind you that I believe that there is still a market for such a line and I look forward to the day they are announced. If they don't come to light, then no big deal. There are many other fish in the sea. But I would certainly be interested in one if they do.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

FWIW, as of Sept 2017, Zenith claimed to have the world's most accurate mechanical watch:


> Zenith presents the world's most accurate mechanical watch
> ...
> A new oscillator forming a monolithic whole, made of monocrystalline silicon (with details finer than a human hair), replaces the sprung balance. The 30 or so components of a standard regulating organ (which requires assembly, adjustment, timing, testing and lubrication) are thus replaced by a single element measuring just 0.5 mm thick (compared with the usual 5 mm.)
> 
> ...


https://www.0024watchworld.com/zenith-presents-worlds-accurate-mechanical-watch/

So, that's a bit better than the average cheapie quartz (~0.5 s/d), but nowhere near the 0.006 s/d of the record-holding giant mechanical clock. And Zenith had to use super-high-tech to do it.

The world's most accurate watch regardless of tech (but that doesn't sync to an external signal) is the Citizen Caliber 0100, which is accurate to 1 s/year = 0.003 s/d:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/citizen-eco-drive-caliber-0100-introducing


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Lee_K said:


> Wearing a Planet Ocean as I type this. I sold my first gen Näcken Modern because it wore slightly too small for my tastes in a diver. No pressure intended at all -- just to remind you that I believe that there is still a market for such a line and I look forward to the day they are announced. If they don't come to light, then no big deal. There are many other fish in the sea. But I would certainly be interested in one if they do.


Yep.

Honestly, I tend to not even remember who's saying or asking what in this thread, with the exception of those guys I've known a while and post here often, and those who stick out in my memory for some other reason. If you'd been pestering me about it repeatedly, I'm sure I'd remember it. The fact that I don't just proves you hadn't annoyed me by asking.

It's not even the "annoyance", and that's not even really the right word. I feel self-imposed pressure to deliver on everything we commit to working on. In addition to that, I feel self-imposed pressure to do everything reasonable to accommodate people's requests, not just regarding product development, but things related to the website, social media, etc.

It's a lot of pressure, but I can't say it's all added by others. Some of it is just in my head, no doubt.

I believe there's demand for a larger size Sub. I wouldn't have worked on it otherwise. I believe there's demand for more Tropics, and more DevilRays. I think all those deserve the time we'd invest in development. I just don't know if I have all that time available, nor do I know which ones to prioritize.

If someone just wanted a bigger NTH, well, the Tropics wear larger than the Subs, and the DevilRays wear larger than that. But, perhaps neither scratches the specific itch for a larger NTH well enough, hence, why we started working on the L/XL Subs.

Sure I've said this before, but...even with bringing people onto the team, to take some of the work off my plate, there's still a lot of work for me. I think I took on too much last year, with Doc's House Calls, and Microbrand University. They took time away from the business, and product development. It's not just the time spent on camera or in the classroom, there was *A LOT* of time given to all those other brand owners, off camera, out of the classroom.

Plus, even though we're selling mostly through retailers now, dealing with them can be like herding cats sometimes.

Anyhoo...I'm working on bringing all those new projects to fruition this year. I hope we can produce all of them in 2020.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Avo said:


> FWIW, as of Sept 2017, Zenith claimed to have the world's most accurate mechanical watch:
> 
> https://www.0024watchworld.com/zenith-presents-worlds-accurate-mechanical-watch/
> 
> ...


Interesting enough.

The Burgess Clock B record was set in 2015. But, of course, it's a clock, not a watch.

It appears Frodsham's watches only came about in 2018.

Zenith is owned by LVMH, a publicly traded company. I have no idea what Zenith's annual production is, but it certainly must dwarf Frodsham's 10-20 pieces per year. In much the same way that it doesn't make sense for me to pursue ISO or Testaf certification, or to have our watches observatory-tested for accuracy, I can easily imagine Frodsham's wouldn't care enough to bother having their movement "certified" in some way.

Why bother? They make 10-20 pieces per year. They have a years-long waiting list already. What more does it add to their business, if they were proclaimed "makers of the world's most accurate watch"?

Again, I don't know how accurate it is. I wish I'd realized the world record I was told about wasn't for the watch, but for the clock they built, when I was sitting there talking to him. Had I realized that, I likely would have asked about their watch's accuracy.

But, it stands to reason, if they built the world's most accurate clock, and produced replicas of Harrison's H3 and H4, and successfully miniaturized Daniel's double-impulse chronometer movement, and they added a power reserve mechanism to it (one which, based on what I've read, sounds pretty ingenious), then at the very least, they'd seem *capable* of producing the world's most accurate mechanical watch movement, even if they don't feel the need to prove it, or even bother to advertise it.

There are some qualities I know our watches possess which I do not advertise, or even discuss, because I know that if I did, someone would demand I "prove" the claims. If I felt it added something to my business to toot that particular horn, I would. But unless and until we have the time and resources available to make a really big noise about it, and back it up in an indisputable way, I'm happy enough to leave that horn un-tooted.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

docvail said:


> Yep.
> 
> Honestly, I tend to not even remember who's saying or asking what in this thread, with the exception of those guys I've known a while and post here often, and those who stick out in my memory for some other reason. If you'd been pestering me about it repeatedly, I'm sure I'd remember it. The fact that I don't just proves you hadn't annoyed me by asking.
> 
> ...


If you stopped with the walls of text Doc you might get some work done...........:-d b-)

.......running and hiding now.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)




----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> If you stopped with the walls of text Doc you might get some work done...........:-d b-)
> 
> .......running and hiding now.


You love them.


----------



## TgeekB (Nov 1, 2015)

Hornet99 said:


> If you stopped with the walls of text Doc you might get some work done...........:-d b-)
> 
> .......running and hiding now.


I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to be the one to say it. Kudos.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> You love them.


I don't read them. Got my mind made up. Who needs to be confused by facts?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> ...
> 
> I believe there's demand for a larger size Sub. I wouldn't have worked on it otherwise. I believe there's demand for more Tropics, and more DevilRays. I think all those deserve the time we'd invest in development. I just don't know if I have all that time available, nor do I know which ones to prioritize.
> 
> ...


How's about a sneak peak of XL case? Maybe it will chum a feeding frenzy and help decide the priority question.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



3WR said:


> How's about a sneak peak of XL case? Maybe it will chum a feeding frenzy and help decide the priority question.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mmmmmmno.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

So....I can no longer see the "80 dollas to make you holla" thread.

Did something happen within the last few hours, while I was watching TV? It's unusual for the mods to completely remove a thread. Usually, if it gets out of hand, they'll just lock it up.

Please tell me I didn't miss anything spectacular happening.


----------



## BrookTrout304 (May 12, 2018)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> So....I can no longer see the "80 dollas to make you holla" thread.
> 
> Did something happen within the last few hours, while I was watching TV? It's unusual for the mods to completely remove a thread. Usually, if it gets out of hand, they'll just lock it up.
> 
> Please tell me I didn't miss anything spectacular happening.


I was having a great time following along... seems like it just disappeared into thin air. Last I read, homeboy was sending a PM out to someone and it got real creepy


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

docvail said:


> OM is a factory-owned brand, based in HK.


With all due respect (and I mean that) what evidence is there that Obris Morgan is a factory brand? I know that's not a claim you would throw out lightly, but I thought that had been discussed and debunked before. They may have insides connections but I always thought Justin from OM was running a legit microbrand.
Honest question


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Davekaye90 said:


> Yeah I don't understand watch collectors sometimes. A nice 1680 Submariner is worth a decent chunk of change. "Submariner" written in RED though, double to triple the price. Because that one line of text is a different color. That's it.
> 
> View attachment 14821981


Red.

Red.

Hot damn, I'm gonna be rich!


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WhiteSand said:


> With all due respect (and I mean that) what evidence is there that Obris Morgan is a factory brand? I know that's not a claim you would throw out lightly, but I thought that had been discussed and debunked before. They may have insides connections but I always thought Justin from OM was running a legit microbrand.
> Honest question


Fair question.

"Evidence" is problematic, not just in this case, but in a lot of things discussed online. I've seen how those discussions tend to go. Inevitably, they devolve into he-said/she-said, counter-accusations, character assassination...essentially, all the worst things that happen on forums.

I can provide "evidence" that I'm a real person, with a last name, a home and business address, a driver's license, employees, a business tax ID, etc. I pay state, federal, and local taxes.

My identity and other identifying details are so easy to verify, and track down, someone actually tried to implicate me in a fraud, using my name, and not one, but two of my addresses, on fraudulent corporate filings.

Someone on the internet can still say I'm not who I say I am. Guys here have met me, and will say, "I've *MET* Chris", and someone will say they're liars, or shills, or just fake accounts I set up.

I've met at least 40 or 50 of my peers - other brand owners. Many more, they have social media profiles, post personal pics, make connections to others, etc. It's hard to convincingly fake being a "real" person with a "real" small business if you're really not one.

In the end, it boils down to what we find credible.

I've seen and heard enough to believe OM is a factory-owned brand. I don't know how that's been "debunked", but I'm very willing to be proven wrong, and open minded about it. If you can point me to the discussion where someone debunked it, please do. I'll immediately edit my prior statement, and apologize for spreading misinformation. That is never my intention. I'd accept proof I was wrong, if someone offered it.

What's Justin's last name? Precisely where is the business located? Has anyone on the forums, or any of his peers, met him? Does he have some sort of "registered" business ID, or address? Is anyone here connected to him on social media? Does he present all the same markers of being a "real" person that other brand owners do?

How is it that OM only seems to come out with a new model once every 2 years, and sells them so cheaply that they sell out, instantly? OM is based in Hong Kong? Okay, that's one of the most expensive places to live in the entire world. Please don't say "he's got a lower cost of living, that's why he can sell cheap."

I routinely talk to other brand owners. I'll frequently make a guess about their production costs. I've *NEVER* been off by more than a few dollars. OM prices are consistently and ridiculously low. It's not enough margin to run a small business like this full time. It's enough for a factory-owned brand selling direct, though.

All that said, and in complete honesty - I don't care. I really don't. It makes no difference to me whatsoever. People say Armida and Helson are factory-owned brands. I don't care. I bought a Helson, and recommend them to others.

In my view, saying a brand is factory-owned isn't an insult, nor is it criticism. It's merely an obvious explanation for why a brand based in Hong Kong can consistently sell for so much less than every other micro. It's not just a matter of being a *little* lower, *most* of the time. It's *a lot* lower, *all of the time*.

If OM isn't truly a factory-owned brand, then I'd strongly suspect "Justin" works for a factory, and OM is his part-time side hustle. If so, then it becomes a distinction without any real difference.

A brand that comes out with a new model every 2 years, and is run as a side-hustle, and otherwise doesn't "do" a whole lot day-to-day, can afford to rock-bottom their prices, which is the point I was making in the post you quoted, which was a response to someone else constantly throwing out "what about OM" whenever that tired "value for money" discussion gets revived.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Twehttam said:


> Thanks, guys! I love it. Fun story wrapped up in it as well. It's hard to explain it.
> 
> And, yes, what fun is life without fun socks?
> 
> ...


You inspired me to wear a little blue charmer today.

Would be interested to hear your thoughts down the road about how you're liking the move to unload some nice watches in order to move into a really nice one.

If the stars aligned and I ended up with a Rolex, I think it would be liberating. Looking like a Rolex is a good quality for a watch. But I have a (probably not unique) hang up about one looking too much like a Rolex without actually being one. (Nevermind that I have a Santa Cruz that really toes the line.) But with a real one? Heck yeah, bring on a famously Rolex dial. Sure, why not, I'll take a nice coronet. And come on, Mercedes hands, it's not a party without you!


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

docvail said:


> Fair question.
> 
> "Evidence" is problematic, not just in this case, but in a lot of things discussed online. I've seen how those discussions tend to go. Inevitably, they devolve into he-said/she-said, counter-accusations, character assassination...essentially, all the worst things that happen on forums.
> 
> ...


Seems about right. OM watches are sent out from huangzhou, not HK, either way. 
Then again... Whoever "Justin" really is*, at least they have responded to my emails and order-alterations basically within hours, and shipped an order out within hours too. On some level - whether OM is a factory brand, a side-hustle, or something else... that doesn't make a tangible difference tbh. Heck, maybe OM is used by the factory to keep a gauge on consumer interest.

In the end, whoever the person(s) interfacing/operating as "OM" are, they manage to make good watches, at *great* prices, and - at least upfront - seem to deliver good service. Idk, maybe it all falls apart when servicing/repairs come into play, maybe not.

As a side thought, the fact that OM allows customization of handset/dial/crystal on their orders, and fulfill that customization within a day or so, gives strong hints towards OM being at least very very close to the "assembly line". *shrug*

*- whether the person running OM is actually legally called "Justin" or not is not really relevant. A lot of folks here who came from China tend to use a "western name", for a variety of reasons. They are a lot more accessible than, say, anyone at San Martin / Hruodwhateveritwas / Proxima. Now, figuring out what the deal is with *those* brands would be interesting, for sure. They also sell good watches - including some wild stuff - at yet even lower prices than OM.


----------



## Twehttam (Apr 28, 2011)

3WR said:


> You inspired me to wear a little blue charmer today.


I miss that Scorp! Doc nailed that dial and the lume, my the lume. My Explorer's SL lasts about 10 minutes.



> Would be interested to hear your thoughts down the road about how you're liking the move to unload some nice watches in order to move into a really nice one.


You bet!



> ...Heck yeah, bring on a famously Rolex dial. Sure, why not, I'll take a nice coronet. And come on, Mercedes hands, it's not a party without you!


Got to have the Mercs! But one thing I dig about an Explorer is it's at least a bit under the radar. The coronet is smaller and doesn't occupy top billing at 12 and the dial is relatively simple overall. But don't let that totally fool you... you'll know. I tried wearing another watch today and it was off in about 2 minutes. Try one, or if you visit Seattle, hit me up.

And my toll...


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> So....I can no longer see the "80 dollas to make you holla" thread.
> 
> Did something happen within the last few hours, while I was watching TV? It's unusual for the mods to completely remove a thread. Usually, if it gets out of hand, they'll just lock it up.
> 
> Please tell me I didn't miss anything spectacular happening.





BrookTrout304 said:


> I was having a great time following along... seems like it just disappeared into thin air. Last I read, homeboy was sending a PM out to someone and it got real creepy


Woke up this morning to find it gone, so disappointed.......


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

X2-Elijah said:


> Seems about right. OM watches are sent out from huangzhou, not HK, either way.
> Then again... Whoever "Justin" really is*, at least they have responded to my emails and order-alterations basically within hours, and shipped an order out within hours too. On some level - whether OM is a factory brand, a side-hustle, or something else... that doesn't make a tangible difference tbh. Heck, maybe OM is used by the factory to keep a gauge on consumer interest.
> 
> In the end, whoever the person(s) interfacing/operating as "OM" are, they manage to make good watches, at *great* prices, and - at least upfront - seem to deliver good service. Idk, maybe it all falls apart when servicing/repairs come into play, maybe not.
> ...


Agreed.

Like I said, I don't have anything against OM, nor do I have anything against Armida or Helson, all of which, people say are "factory-owned" brands.

So long as the product is good enough for the price, and they support their customers well enough, I think it's all fair play.

I don't want to harp on OM. It's just that OM is one of those brands that frequently get thrown out as an example whenever someone wants to say some other brand is over-priced.

But that's not really an apples-to-apples comparison, was my point. And not just because OM appears to be factory-owned.

Any brand run part-time can't possibly offer the same support as a brand run full time. Any brand which is run full time, but which isn't factory-owned, is at a disadvantage to factory-owned brands, but probably has the advantage in support.

But beyond that, OM's pattern has been to come out with a new model every 2 years, put them all up for sale - for immediate delivery, no pre-orders - at crazy-low prices, and they instantly sell out. The watches they're selling now - this is the first time in recent memory that they've actually had stock for sale for more than a few hours.

The fact that they used to sell out so quickly was proof enough they were under-pricing. I suspect they made *A LOT* more of their current models, in response to all the online complaining about their selling out so quickly, which is why they still have some for sale (but are sold out of many versions already).

I don't really want to re-open the painfully endless discussion of costs, margins, etc. All I can say is that at a certain point, the numbers don't add up, and when you get to that point, you have to look for alternative explanations. OM isn't charging enough for the brand to be run the way most micros are. The most likely explanation is that they're a factory owned brand.

I can't compete with factory-owned brands on price, or even other independent brands on price, if the competition is with brands who are habitually underpricing. I built my business to offer a higher-quality product, and a higher level of support, but also at a higher price.


----------



## justin_omt (Oct 29, 2019)

docvail said:


> Fair question.
> 
> "Evidence" is problematic, not just in this case, but in a lot of things discussed online. I've seen how those discussions tend to go. Inevitably, they devolve into he-said/she-said, counter-accusations, character assassination...essentially, all the worst things that happen on forums.
> 
> ...


This is Justin from OM
All of your assumptions are base on only factory able to offer the price below yours.
And then everything seems doesn't make sense.
Everything base on your own experience.
Ton of Micro Brands there proved this is only your own experiences.
I am in I.T industry before start OM.
I have zero connection To the watches industry.
Again, we are not factory owned brand/ working for factory/ having special connections to having any magic offer.
Mostly one meeting in a year discussing our product.
That's all.


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Another pic just because. Renegade all charged up and cat face just the opposite.









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## justin_omt (Oct 29, 2019)

X2-Elijah said:


> Seems about right. OM watches are sent out from huangzhou, not HK, either way.
> Then again... Whoever "Justin" really is*, at least they have responded to my emails and order-alterations basically within hours, and shipped an order out within hours too. On some level - whether OM is a factory brand, a side-hustle, or something else... that doesn't make a tangible difference tbh. Heck, maybe OM is used by the factory to keep a gauge on consumer interest.
> 
> In the end, whoever the person(s) interfacing/operating as "OM" are, they manage to make good watches, at *great* prices, and - at least upfront - seem to deliver good service. Idk, maybe it all falls apart when servicing/repairs come into play, maybe not.
> ...


Many Micro Brands assembly in house. 
And we are.
Now he is not talking assembly. He is telling we are factory owned and this is the reason offer the product below his price.

The reason we setting up an office in China was because Hong Kong is under China. But the product import from Hong Kong to China has border.
It mean if we needed return failure parts to China.
That would be complicated.
But anyway we will move back to Hong Kong in no longer than 2 years.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

justin_omt said:


> This is Justin from OM


Hi Justin, thanks for writing here. And welcome!

Questions:

If I am reading correct, OM assembles their own watches in China workshop?

And soon to move back to HK?

Would it make any more sense to assemble in Shenzhen FTZ?


----------



## justin_omt (Oct 29, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> Hi Justin, thanks for writing here. And welcome!
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...


Thank you. 
We assembly our watches in house or our operations were
Written in our website - introduction page long times ago. 
This is not the news.
Regarding to assembly in SZ.
Honestly I don't know yet.

One thing I want to clarify here. When there are untrue about us.
We have to response. 
We tried to ignore those rumors in the past. 
However, the rumors didn't stop. Rumors just go further and sounds like science fiction.
I met forum owners / members or Bloggers in Hong Kong.
Do I needed to report to some of you to prove I am exist?

If there are questions, email are welcome.
Thank you.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Like I said, I don't have anything against OM, nor do I have anything against Armida or Helson, all of which, people say are "factory-owned" brands.
> 
> ...


So you are making assumptions and guesses about Obris Morgan. Isn't that exactly the reason you were ridiculing jbglock? Very nice. Must destroy what doesn't fit your narrative. I've been buying om for years and love them, customer service, response time to emails and the ability to customize orders are all amazing.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## WhiteSand (Feb 11, 2010)

docvail said:


> Fair question.


Thanks for taking the time to respond. I certainly didn't mean to start any more online battles or detract from fact this thread is actually about your brand.

FWIW I believe you are a real person ?


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Love this watch......










Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## Sussa (Nov 24, 2014)

docvail said:


> So....I can no longer see the "80 dollas to make you holla" thread.
> 
> Did something happen within the last few hours, while I was watching TV? It's unusual for the mods to completely remove a thread. Usually, if it gets out of hand, they'll just lock it up.
> 
> Please tell me I didn't miss anything spectacular happening.


It was locked, but then deleted. I was trying to read the last posts when the site returned an invalid thread error. Now we'll never know how to get an $80 NTH.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

justin_omt said:


> Thank you.
> We assembly our watches in house or our operations were
> Written in our website - introduction page long times ago.
> This is not the news.
> ...


Thanks for chiming in you make a great watch. Please keep at it you have plenty of fans here who support your work.









Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> I've seen and heard enough to believe OM is a factory-owned brand. I don't know how that's been "debunked", but I'm very willing to be proven wrong, and open minded about it. If you can point me to the discussion where someone debunked it, please do. I'll immediately edit my prior statement, and apologize for spreading misinformation. That is never my intention. I'd accept proof I was wrong, if someone offered it..





JLS36 said:


> So you are making assumptions and guesses about Obris Morgan. Isn't that exactly the reason you were ridiculing jbglock? Very nice. Must destroy what doesn't fit your narrative. I've been buying om for years and love them, customer service, response time to emails and the ability to customize orders are all amazing.


That bit up there is primary among the reasons that Doc Vail's posts differ from jbglock's, along with actually knowing what he's talking about, and being able to reference quotes, citations, and assertions.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> That bit up there is primary among the reasons that Doc Vail's posts differ from jbglock's, along with actually knowing what he's talking about, and being able to reference quotes, citations, and assertions.


Yes that's a good disclaimer I don't know if jb said anything like that or not.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> Yes that's a good disclaimer I don't know if jb said anything like that or not.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


You know enough to draw this comparison so you read his posts, it just doesn't fit your narrative.


----------



## dmjonez (Jul 14, 2013)

Can we please not let the "flat-earth" society spam and lock EVERY thread? I appeal to everyone to keep civil, and not insist that contrary opinions are satanic. The recent thread explosions are a perfect display of all the current problems with social media today. WUS is approaching the point of uselessness, due to the hatred and discourtesy.

Without knowing for certain why it was locked, I watched the other thread degrade from "I disagree" into "You are a bad person" in content.

Whew.


----------



## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

I think there's a safe space down in f/425, Thursday is puppy day at f/469, if that's of any interest


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

justin_omt said:


> This is Justin from OM


Hello Justin. Thanks for chiming in.



justin_omt said:


> All of your assumptions are base on only factory able to offer the price below yours.


Actually, no. I've given lots of reasons why another brand could price less than mine. Many other brands which are not factory-owned are lower than mine.



justin_omt said:


> And then everything seems doesn't make sense.


How so?



justin_omt said:


> Everything base on your own experiences.


Actually, it isn't. I talk to a lot of other brand owners. Some have more experience or knowledge than I do. I've heard this about OM from other brand owners, whose judgment I tend to trust.

Would you like me to edit my earlier post, to say it's OM is only reputed to be factory owned?

Beyond that, of course, all any of us can do is base our conclusions on our own experience. I think my experience should count for something.



justin_omt said:


> Ton of Micro Brands there proved this is only your own experiences.


I don't know what to make of that.



justin_omt said:


> I am in I.T industry before start OM.
> I have zero connection To the watches industry.


Great. Can you post links to your LinkedIn or Facebook profiles?

I see you only recently joined the forums here, and only have 3 posts. Not all microbrand owners are active on the forums, but many brand owners are active on Facebook, active in Facebook groups, and many professionals will maintain LinkedIn profiles.

Having any sort of social media footprint helps to show that the owner of a brand is a real person. Like I said, it's hard to fake being a real person if you're not one.



justin_omt said:


> Again, we are not factory owned brand/ working for factory/ having special connections to having any magic offer.
> Mostly one meeting in a year discussing our product.
> That's all.


Sounds like you're still working in IT then? Please do post a link to your LInkedIn profile. Can you tell us the IT company, and a little about what you do there?

Here's an example of what I mean by presenting yourself as a real person. Consider this free advice to help you establish OM more with online enthusiasts...

This is my LinkedIn profile - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisvail/.

It's viewable to the public. You can see a picture of me (albeit, it's way out of date), that I have 500 connections, and my education. I removed a good bit of my past career history a few years ago, because it was no longer relevant to my current business, and I was getting way too many connection requests based on past jobs.

You can see I've provided references for other professionals. Prior to removing my past work history, I had over 2 dozen references from others, but those went away when I deleted that work history.

This is my Facebook profile - https://www.facebook.com/Vail.Christopher

Again, it's viewable to the public. I tend not to use pictures of myself for my profile pic, but there are many pictures of me within my photos, and people can see that the person in those pics is the same person on the LinkedIn profile.

Both profiles have both my first and last name, pics of me, some details about my background, hundreds of personal and professional connections to other people, and a geolocation tag.

Those are just two pieces of my online "footprint". There are many, many more. There are pictures of me, along with my full name, in various blog posts and YouTube videos. In many of those blog posts or videos, there's a mention of my background, the city I live in, some personal details about my life, etc.

It would be very difficult for someone to convince others I'm not a real person, just a made-up persona as a front for a factory-owned brand.

By contrast, when a brand owner doesn't have any sort of digital footprint, hasn't revealed much if any personal details which are in any way verifiable, hasn't met any customers by way of regional GTG's, doesn't reveal their last name, or their face, or the city they live in, etc, then it would be easy for a factory to have any employee pretend to be "Justin".

None of the above is meant as criticism. Anyone reading can judge for themselves if it makes sense. I think it does, and you should consider it, because letting customers know more about you is good for business, in my observation and experience.

If you don't let customers know anything about you, it tends to create suspicion, and give people (including your competitors) ammunition to suggest that you're not a real person, and OM is just a factory-owned brand.

I hope that helps. Best of luck in your endeavors.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



JLS36 said:


> So you are making assumptions and guesses about Obris Morgan. Isn't that exactly the reason you were ridiculing jbglock? Very nice. Must destroy what doesn't fit your narrative. I've been buying om for years and love them, customer service, response time to emails and the ability to customize orders are all amazing.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Not at all.

As I said, I've heard this about OM from others in the industry, and I think it's a reasonable conclusion.

There are many things people believe to be true, because those things are reasonable to believe, and there's no evidence to the contrary.

Let's say you ask me if my business has shareholders, or if I own it all myself, 100%. I say I own the business 100%, and don't have shareholders. You say I do have shareholders, and I demand you prove it, by giving evidence.

You can't do it. There's no evidence I have any shareholders. Logically, I can't prove a negative. I can't prove that I *don't* have shareholders. But, I could actually provide you "evidence" that makes it look like I don't. When I created the company and registered it with my state, mine was the only name which appeared as a shareholder, and I owned 100%.

As it happens, I don't own 100%. There is some outside investment. You'd have to get a hold of our business tax filings to discover it, but of course, those aren't available to the public, on demand.

I can't "prove" OM is a factory-owned brand, which I already admitted. Justin can't "prove" he doesn't own or work for a factory, because you can't prove a negative. But, like I said, there are many brand owners which present themselves as real people, not as a front for a factory, and some who don't.

Justin is one who hasn't presented himself as a real person, the way many other brand owners have, there are some in the industry who say OM is factory-owned, and the brand shows many, if not all of the markers of being factory-owned. It's just a logical conclusion that the brand is factory-owned.

Justin could help himself and his business, and put those rumors to rest, if he shared more about himself and his business with the public. As I said, I'm open-minded, and very willing to be proven wrong. It's not my intention to spread misinformation, and I don't have any problem with OM, or factory-owned brands.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WhiteSand said:


> Thanks for taking the time to respond. I certainly didn't mean to start any more online battles or detract from fact this thread is actually about your brand.
> 
> FWIW I believe you are a real person ?


No worries. I didn't want to assume you were trying to start trouble.

Honestly, I should have said, "OM is reputed to be a factory-owned brand" in my earlier post, because of course, I can't prove it.

I don't think anyone can prove any other brand is "factory owned", either, and yet, we all seem to agree there are some brands which are factory-owned.

I don't see how it's out of line for me or anyone else to look at a brand, how it operates, and the visibility of the owner, and draw some reasonable conclusions.

It's reasonable for people to think I'm exactly who I say I am, and that I don't own or work for a factory. I think it's reasonable for people to think OM may be factory owned. I encourage Justin to set the record straight, not just by saying "I don't own or work for a factory", but by giving people more to go on.

I hope he takes the advice, and it helps his business.


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Please excuse my ignorance, but could someone please explain the "BSH" on the 50 that were made? I've seen BSH on some other watches, but when I search google, they dont seem to be a watch brand? A little confused, as I do not know the back story. Just curious is all, as these BSH versions seem to be very well loved.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

justin_omt said:


> Thank you.
> We assembly our watches in house or our operations were
> Written in our website - introduction page long times ago.
> This is not the news.
> ...


It's great that you met forum owners / members and bloggers in Hong Kong.

Who are they? Where are they? Have any of them come forward to say, "I've met Justin from OM"? Here's hoping they present themselves as real people.

Did you happen to meet HKEd, who is well-known on these forums, lives in Hong Kong, and knows many people in the industry? What about Tom (MrDagon007), who is very active on this forum, and also lives in HK?

Did you meet any other brand owners, from brands based outside China or HK? Which ones?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

WeirdGuy said:


> Please excuse my ignorance, but could someone please explain the "BSH" on the 50 that were made? I've seen BSH on some other watches, but when I search google, they dont seem to be a watch brand? A little confused, as I do not know the back story. Just curious is all, as these BSH versions seem to be very well loved.


It's actually a BSHT.

There's a long-running series of threads with "Brotherhood of Submariner Homages", collectively called "The BSHT", for short. One of the regulars created that BSHT anchor logo, which many of them have been using to have custom dials printed for the homages they create.

Latest installment - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/brotherhood-submariner-homages-k-bsht-part-38-a-5111225.html


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

docvail said:


> It's actually a BSHT.
> 
> There's a long-running series of threads with "Brotherhood of Submariner Homages", collectively called "The BSHT", for short. One of the regulars created that BSHT anchor logo, which many of them have been using to have custom dials printed for the homages they create.
> 
> Latest installment - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/brotherhood-submariner-homages-k-bsht-part-38-a-5111225.html


Ah, my bad on the incorrect acronym. Thanks for the info and link, Chris.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sincere apologies to everyone for not being more accurate in my earlier post. I should know better than to make statements I can't readily support. I've edited my earlier post as seen below.



docvail said:


> OM is a factory-owned brand, based in HK.
> 
> *[EDIT] *_- *I should say that I've been told OM is a factory-owned brand, by others within the industry. I've seen others say OM is factory-owned. OM appears to me and others to be factory-owned. I haven't seen anything to make me think OM is *NOT* factory owned. But of course, I can't *prove* OM is factory-owned. So form your own conclusions.*_


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

Speaking of the BSH watch, here is 42/50. I also have a BVB which probably won't get much wrist time now, given the similarities. I'll probably have to move that one.


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

Seabee1 said:


> I think there's a safe space down in f/425, Thursday is puppy day at f/469, if that's of any interest


bunch of snowflakes here


----------



## justin_omt (Oct 29, 2019)

docvail said:


> It's great that you met forum owners / members and bloggers in Hong Kong.
> 
> Who are they? Where are they? Have any of them come forward to say, "I've met Justin from OM"? Here's hoping they present themselves as real people.
> 
> ...


It's just ridiculous.
Why I have to prove you who I met?
Why they needed or wanted to tell people they met me?
What if I ask them here to prove. And then prove your next question?

Why other brand owners? Did I said anything about other brand owners I met?


----------



## justin_omt (Oct 29, 2019)

docvail said:


> It's great that you met forum owners / members and bloggers in Hong Kong.
> 
> Who are they? Where are they? Have any of them come forward to say, "I've met Justin from OM"? Here's hoping they present themselves as real people.
> 
> ...


It's just ridiculous.
Why I have to prove you who I met?
Why they needed or wanted to tell people they met me?
What if I ask them here to prove. And then prove your next question?

Why other brand owners? Did I said anything about other brand owners I met?


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Interestingly from the OM Facebook page......










Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Hornet99 said:


> Interestingly from the OM Facebook page......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well yeah...

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Subtle Nomad in a rental car


----------



## WeirdGuy (Feb 11, 2019)

Ghost on bracelet for today. I honestly have no complaints about these NTH watches. I have tried _a lot_ of microbrands, as I really enjoy them, but NTH watches really hit the nail-on-the-head for me. Looks, size, case design, movement choice, etc... I definitely see myself always having one or more NTH in the collection.


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> Not sure why it took me this long to reply to this...
> 
> Here's the deal with these illustrations before-the-fact..
> 
> ...


I might be missing something silly here, but have you tried using one of the sets of Pantone swatches to do the matching with the samples? They're obscenely priced, but you only have to buy them once.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmnc said:


> I might be missing something silly here, but have you tried using one of the sets of Pantone swatches to do the matching with the samples? They're obscenely priced, but you only have to buy them once.


I haven't, and reasons why would require a wall of text.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

justin_omt said:


> It's just ridiculous.
> Why I have to prove you who I met?
> Why they needed or wanted to tell people they met me?
> What if I ask them here to prove. And then prove your next question?
> ...


It's your choice if you want to go that way, and expect everyone to just take you at your word. I can only tell you from my experience that people appreciate some transparency from microbrand owners.

Either way, best of luck in your business.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Why does it matter who owns OM? I don’t give a hoot. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

@justin_omt, I don’t own any OM watch, although I hope one day there will be one can fit my wrist. Love the design of the SeaStar. One question though: I can understand why you don’t want to have digital footprint. I hate to know that one search on my email could reveal a lot about me. Still, the timing and position of your post is strange. There were rumors, but why do you pick Doc’s thread to clear it, right after he laid out the evidence? At the beginning, my thought was like: it sounds like a troll who pretend to be “Justin” from OM.

Still, love the brand, hopefully one day I can become your customer!


----------



## det55 (Apr 19, 2017)

hwa said:


> Why does it matter who owns OM? I don't give a hoot.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It seems mostly to matter to Justin.


----------



## det55 (Apr 19, 2017)

justin_omt said:


> It's just ridiculous.
> Why I have to prove you who I met?
> Why they needed or wanted to tell people they met me?
> What if I ask them here to prove. And then prove your next question?
> ...


You don't have to do any of that. 
And Doc/Others don't have to take your word for it either. 
If you want people to believe your story it helps to have a consistent story. Doc gave specific examples of how to do that. Getting defensive about it doesn't really help. 
If you prefer, for whatever reason, not to do that sort of thing that's fine too. I'm sure you'll still sell watches as people seem to have an overall positive opinion of the watches.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

det55 said:


> It seems mostly to matter to Justin.


Well no that's not entirely true. Vail asked him to prove who he is.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

docvail said:


> dmnc said:
> 
> 
> > I might be missing something silly here, but have you tried using one of the sets of Pantone swatches to do the matching with the samples? They're obscenely priced, but you only have to buy them once.
> ...


Pantone is great for print, works in a pinch for paint, but start talking about semi-transparent color on metal, and things go south. Dealing in approximations only. Red print on dial is easy enough to spec, my guess would be 185, 186 or so for the text on my old Amphion Commando, but blue dial or bezel? Not so much.

I was even cringing when Doc was talking about holding a color book up to a screen -- projective RGB color vs. reflective spot or CMYK? Solid best guess, pick a color and hope for the best territory.

BTW, those books have a shelf life...


----------



## justin_omt (Oct 29, 2019)

I


det55 said:


> You don't have to do any of that.
> And Doc/Others don't have to take your word for it either.
> If you want people to believe your story it helps to have a consistent story. Doc gave specific examples of how to do that. Getting defensive about it doesn't really help.
> If you prefer, for whatever reason, not to do that sort of thing that's fine too. I'm sure you'll still sell watches as people seem to have an overall positive opinion of the watches.


Thanks for the teaching.

I have to get other peoples involved to prove
him I am a real existing people convince him stop saying 
untrue which by only his imagination without any proof from him?
Where's the proof when he saying that.


----------



## justin_omt (Oct 29, 2019)

Forever8895 said:


> @justin_omt, I don't own any OM watch, although I hope one day there will be one can fit my wrist. Love the design of the SeaStar. One question though: I can understand why you don't want to have digital footprint. I hate to know that one search on my email could reveal a lot about me. Still, the timing and position of your post is strange. There were rumors, but why do you pick Doc's thread to clear it, right after he laid out the evidence? At the beginning, my thought was like: it sounds like a troll who pretend to be "Justin" from OM.
> 
> Still, love the brand, hopefully one day I can become your customer!


The timing was he told others here "OM is factory owned brand"
And then we clarify in FB
Next day he still stand for what he told here. Changed the voice a little. I am working for factory.
Similar to what he claimed "OM is factory owned brand" May be Justin is created people.
I came here to told he we are not factory owned brand or I don't work for factory and I am exist.
Now he asked proof.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

You're litigating the dispute on a web forum, on a thread populated by doc's particular friends. Take it somewhere else, probably would be a wise idea. Nobody here much cares; we're all waiting for proof that some other dude can buy an NTH for $80 on Alibaba...



justin_omt said:


> The timing was he told others here "OM is factory owned brand"
> And then we clarify in FB
> Next day he still stand for what he told here. Changed the voice a little. I am working for factory.
> Similar to what he claimed "OM is factory owned brand" May be Justin is created people.
> ...


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

You don't owe anyone anything, Justin.. but it would be pretty simple and validating to respond in another way. I thought you'd go that route next as it's typically the natural response when something or someone is called into question. You are here on this forum. You made an account. I'm learning who you are and about your products. I'm a potential customer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> Well no that's not entirely true. Vail asked him to prove who he is.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


In fact, I did no such thing, but it's nice to see you're still trolling.

I was quick to say I can't prove OM is factory-owned, and explained why. I edited my earlier post in which I said that. I thanked Justin for chiming in, and provided him with some advice about how to put those persistent rumors to rest, once and for all. Some might say that was very considerate of me.

I can't help the appearance other brand owners give. Some brand owners put themselves out there, some don't, and some brands are apparently owned by factories.

If a brand looks like a factory-owned brand, and seems to operate like a factory-owned brand, and is located where factory-owned brands are located, but it's important for the brand owner to make it clear that his brand is NOT factory-owned, doesn't it make sense that the owner would do something more than simply saying, "no it's not"?

I too find it a little odd that after years of discussion about Obris Morgan on this forum, the first time we hear from the brand owner is in this thread, where all his posts so far have been. The timing seems a bit odd, doesn't it? Why not speak up before now, when others said OM was factory owned, or when customers were angry they couldn't get one of the watches, due to the absurdly low prices and low production numbers?

Just to review what we've been told or already knew:

1. His name is "Justin" (no last name provided, no link to a Facebook profile).

2. He works in IT (no company name provided, no job title, no details about the work he does, no LinkedIn profile).

3. He's based in mainland China (where the watches are made), and he's met several other forum owners and brand owners in Hong Kong (but won't tell us which ones, not one single name).

4. Prior to the most recent OM release, many of their past models were sold for such a low price that they sold out instantly. Hundreds of watches, already produced, with no pre-orders, just ready for immediate shipping. Let's explore that...

You brought OM up as an example of why NTH prices are too high. Okay, fair enough. You weren't the first, and likely won't be the last. Whenever someone's thrown OM in my face in the past, I like to tell them to go buy one. But, of course, they couldn't, because the watches were sold out, instantly, leading to hundreds of angry dudes ranting on the forums.

So...I say the price is too low, which is why they sell out instantly. You say it isn't too low, so implicit in that statement is the idea OM is making a good profit on those sales, right? It should be enough for me, if it's enough for them, no?

But...if I could sell 300 watches instantly, with a healthy profit, it wouldn't take me 2 years to come out with my next model. Let's just say that he was doubling his money, by marking up his costs 2x to get his retail prices. With a four month production cycle, and an instant sell-out, he could double his money every 4 months.

He's got a great job in IT, and doesn't want to quit it? Sorry, but there's no job in IT which is better than doubling your money every 4 months.

The money on those sales is "enough"? Sorry, but with a $375 retail price, and a 2x markup, he'd be making $175 per unit, *gross* profit. On 300 units, that's $52,500 profit. That's not enough to cover business overhead and all your living costs for two years, even in China.

None of it makes sense. You know what does?

OM is a side-hustle for someone who works in the industry, or operates as a "pressure release valve" for some OEM. Most of the time, "Justin" (the OEM) is making watches for client companies. When there's some unused capacity, they throw the next Obris Morgan model into the production queue, just to keep the workers busy. Making a profit on them isn't as critical. So long as they don't lose money, it's all good.

Someone at the factory can respond to any emails which come in through the OM website. Anyone can be "Justin" in an email, or on a forum.

If anyone says OM is owned by a factory, say it isn't. If they suggest you could put the rumors to rest by posting a link to a FB profile, a LinkedIn profile, or point to anyone who is a reliable, known entity, who could verify that you've met - act outraged at the very notion. Say it's ridiculous.

Sorry, but it's not on me to prove anything here. I can't prove NTH isn't a factory owned brand. But no reasonable person can look at my digital fooprint, and come to that conclusion. That people can easily see I'm a real person is enough for any reasonable person.

Is it not even a little odd that most microbrand owners understand that engaging online with customers can be critical, but there's a microbrand owner who's *NEVER* engaged, at all, except to say "by brand isn't factory-owned, but how dare you ask me to prove what I say"?


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



mconlonx said:


> Pantone is great for print, works in a pinch for paint, but start talking about semi-transparent color on metal, and things go south. Dealing in approximations only. Red print on dial is easy enough to spec, my guess would be 185, 186 or so for the text on my old Amphion Commando, but blue dial or bezel? Not so much.
> 
> I was even cringing when Doc was talking about holding a color book up to a screen -- projective RGB color vs. reflective spot or CMYK? Solid best guess, pick a color and hope for the best territory.
> 
> BTW, those books have a shelf life...


Good guess, we're in that 185-187 range with the reds we like.

Everything you said there is true, and there's even more to it. The PVD is semi-transparent, and how the colors present themselves can vary with the underlying surface. Unless Pantone can supply me with a set of samples showing all the colors applied to stainless steel via PVD, a paper catalog isn't going to be very reliable.

If I had steel samples, I could take them out in the daylight, hold them next to the plating supplier's samples, and find the closest match, then come back inside, and make little tweaks as needed to get to the end result.

Until then, I'll keep putting the blame on Rusty.


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)




----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

I personally don't understand the contempt around 'factory brands' here and on Facebook. Who cares? If a watch is well made and appeals to me and what I personally deem a good value, I'll buy it. I don't really care if the company is run by a single owner, a group of investors or a factory. Why should it matter?

OM makes nice watches at a better than average price point. Their customer service is good, they even will make custom changes to a piece on occasion. I don't care if they're owned by an IT guy, a factory or the Chinese government. Just announce the date the watch is going to go online for sale and deliver it via FedEx. 

But that's just me. 

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> I personally don't understand the contempt around 'factory brands' here and on Facebook. Who cares? If a watch is well made and appeals to me and what I personally deem a good value, I'll buy it. I don't really care if the company is run by a single owner, a group of investors or a factory. Why should it matter?
> 
> OM makes nice watches at a better than average price point. Their customer service is good, they even will make custom changes to a piece on occasion. I don't care if they're owned by an IT guy, a factory or the Chinese government. Just announce the date the watch is going to go online for sale and deliver it via FedEx.
> 
> ...


How dare you inject logic into a discussion on the internet!?!?!?

You're absolutely right, of course.


----------



## Spartans (Mar 2, 2013)

Doc,

I don't know if you saw my last post before the thread was nuked....

You mentioned that you are considering bringing case production to the US. In my opinion, that's not a good move since you already have what is probably a very good/cheap source in China.

What I would do is look into ceramic cases or some other exotic tech that puts one into exclusive territory. A lot of the new tech sound super exotic, but a lot of it is far less then meets the eye. The trick is to find related industries that you can copy or cooperate with. Obviously anyone who is making the cases for current uber expensive watches wont help you, so you have to dig, dig and dig some more to find sources. Or maybe I'm wrong and the China Watch Inc is already producing them and available. 

Another thing which you already know....perception is as important as reality. A lot of people love titanium, but in reality, 316 ss is normally harder and relatively cheaper. Add a coating or two and 316 can get pretty scratch resistant. So a ceramic case will have a lots of wow factor and it may not cost that much to push up the retail price. The downside is that they can be cracked catastrophically. So what. A cracked case in a thousand is well worth the cost/benefit ratio. 

Good luck....


----------



## Forever8895 (Oct 12, 2014)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Well, I don't care either! I love good watches, backed by good people. Couldn't care less where it comes from. However, I question this Justin, as he cleared the rumor with 3 posts in NTH thread. It makes things more suspicious than it was. Like he is doing something shady and wants to correct it here


----------



## Spartans (Mar 2, 2013)

winstoda said:


> I personally don't understand the contempt around 'factory brands' here and on Facebook. Who cares? If a watch is well made and appeals to me and what I personally deem a good value, I'll buy it. I don't really care if the company is run by a single owner, a group of investors or a factory. Why should it matter?
> 
> OM makes nice watches at a better than average price point. Their customer service is good, they even will make custom changes to a piece on occasion. I don't care if they're owned by an IT guy, a factory or the Chinese government. Just announce the date the watch is going to go online for sale and deliver it via FedEx.
> 
> ...


It could be run by IBM....*sigh*

I'm fuming right now because IBM bought Weather Underground and completely destroyed it. All in the name of maximizing every once of profit out of it. I depended on it for local weather and now, even if I want to pay their ridiculous monthly fee, it's still garbage.

Back on topic....

Who cares who owns it....as long as the company has a PROVEN record of making a good product. Fashion brands like DW were, are and will probably be a junk watch brand. Versus the giants like Citizen/Seiko/etc and the smaller companies who depend on their reputation.


----------



## Spartans (Mar 2, 2013)

ANOTHER double post from my desktop....don't know why.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Sorry guys, I can't do this right now.

I have a family emergency...


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

docvail said:


> Sorry guys, I can't do this right now.
> 
> I have a family emergency...
> 
> View attachment 14827007


Sounds like he takes after his dad.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Spartans said:


> Doc,
> 
> I don't know if you saw my last post before the thread was nuked....
> 
> ...


That's mighty thoughtful of you. Thanks, sincerely.

As it happens, I've been looking into alternative materials for a while, and there's one in particular I want to try, so that's on the agenda.

Regardless of how things go on that specific topic, I think it would be good for me to have a better understanding of the processes involved, and their costs, if we did want to bring some production back here.

It's not all theory or just academic. Mass producing watches in America is the "holy grail" for a lot of people in the industry. I've been saying, for some time, that if it's going to work, it can't just be about red-blooded, chest-thumping patriotism. It's a global market, and we have to be competitive in EVERY market, not simply find the intersection of American nationalism and conspicuous consumption.

I honestly think everyone who's attempted it so far has failed because they came at it with the wrong vision. It was brand-centric, rather than industry-centric. I want to see some numbers, before I make plans, and before I just give up.


----------



## SteamJ (Jun 30, 2013)

docvail said:


> That's mighty thoughtful of you. Thanks, sincerely.
> 
> As it happens, I've been looking into alternative materials for a while, and there's one in particular I want to try, so that's on the agenda.
> 
> ...


If you're trying something new then maybe try out an adobe baked case with a thatch roof dial. Maybe an homage to this.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkND said:


> Sounds like he takes after his dad.


There's a reason we call him "the pantsless wonder".

True story - HWA once visited my house. We walked in together, and I announced to anyone home that we had a visitor. This kid was watching TV in the front room, wearing only a pair of boxers. "I'm not wearing any pants," he said, as if I was about to tell HWA to go wait outside. He's an idiot.

Another true story - I once walked into my house, and found a pair of boy's boxer shorts immediately inside the front door. I stopped, did a double-take, and started to look around the front porch for a pair of trousers. I mean, if his boxers are just inside the door, where was he when he ditched his pants?

I have two teenage boys. They're terrible. All the younger one does is eat, take two-hour power-dumps, and look at himself in the mirror. The older one is only wearing pants around the house about half the time, and apparently can't even keep them up for the six hours he's in school.

I keep reminding my wife how awesome it used to be, when it was just me, her, and the dog.

Those were good times...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

SteamJ said:


> If you're trying something new then maybe try out an adobe baked case with a thatch roof dial. Maybe an homage to this.
> 
> View attachment 14827037


I like where this is going...

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/adobe/n9492


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Double post.

Random pic.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Your expected response to the school is why people think you're a d1ck. Your actual response to the school is why we KNOW you're a d1ck.

good lord, brother, what would have been so hard about saying, "Sorry, the mooner is a moron. Honestly, we were hoping you could raise him better than we've proved capable."


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

winstoda said:


> I personally don't understand the contempt around 'factory brands' here and on Facebook. Who cares?


Well... ya gotta draw a line somewhere, about what constitutes a "microbrand," and many feel that line should exclude factory brands.

Personally, I have a bronze San Martin that I absolutely love, and have had other factory brand watches which were perfectly fine.

I think part of the issue is that many attribute positive qualities to microbrands to the point that factories have noticed enough to try to horn in on that scene.

And online, you can be anything you want to represent.

Plus, the same people who fault microbrands for homage and derivative designs probably lump factory brands in with them.

So there are probably more than one attribute which contribute to factory brand hate. And you know the drill: haterz gonna hate...


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> Your expected response to the school is why people think you're a d1ck. Your actual response to the school is why we KNOW you're a d1ck.
> 
> good lord, brother, what would have been so hard about saying, "Sorry, the mooner is a moron. Honestly, we were hoping you could raise him better than we've proved capable."


Oh, and that would have made me sound like LESS of a dlck???

Eff that guy if he hasn't got a sense of humor. He's not a teacher, he's an administrator. The only interaction he ever has with my son is when the kid screws up somehow.

For the money I pay to send my kid to that school, he should be allowed to roll in wearing nothing but a tube-sock over his johnson, like the Red Hot Chili Peppers (Google it).


----------



## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> Well... ya gotta draw a line somewhere, about what constitutes a "microbrand," and many feel that line should exclude factory brands.
> 
> Personally, I have a bronze San Martin that I absolutely love, and have had other factory brand watches which were perfectly fine.
> 
> ...


I guess I don't get the hang-up around having to define what a microbrand is. My collection is made up of an assortment of brands from Rolex, Omega, Breitling, Seiko, Halios, Raven, NTH, one hit wonders and assorted Kickstarter pieces. I buy what I like. I don't stick my nose up at 'microbrand' pieces or Swatch group brands. I like Swiss pieces. I also like Japanese. I like watches.

Sometimes I think people just enjoy railing against something... Need something to argue about.

I don't personally feel any need to draw a line. But again, that's just me.

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Pantone is great for print, works in a pinch for paint, but start talking about semi-transparent color on metal, and things go south. Dealing in approximations only. Red print on dial is easy enough to spec, my guess would be 185, 186 or so for the text on my old Amphion Commando, but blue dial or bezel? Not so much.
> 
> I was even cringing when Doc was talking about holding a color book up to a screen -- projective RGB color vs. reflective spot or CMYK? Solid best guess, pick a color and hope for the best territory.
> 
> BTW, those books have a shelf life...


It's not going to be perfect by any means. But squinting at calibrated cards must surely be better than squinting at the screen.

That said, once you get to an acceptable RGB value for on screen representation you're happy with for each of the PVD colours available it all becomes immaterial and you've saved a few hundred quid.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

docvail said:


> Oh, and that would have made me sound like LESS of a dlck???
> 
> Eff that guy if he hasn't got a sense of humor. He's not a teacher, he's an administrator. The only interaction he ever has with my son is when the kid screws up somehow.
> 
> For the money I pay to send my kid to that school, he should be allowed to roll in wearing nothing but a tube-sock over his johnson, like the Red Hot Chili Peppers (Google it).


As if you didn't know that was a friendly kick

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uvalaw2005 (May 27, 2009)

winstoda said:


> I guess I don't get the hang-up around having to define what a microbrand is. My collection is made up of an assortment of brands from Rolex, Omega, Breitling, Seiko, Halios, Raven, NTH, one hit wonders and assorted Kickstarter pieces. I buy what I like. I don't stick my nose up at 'microbrand' pieces or Swatch group brands. I like Swiss pieces. I also like Japanese. I like watches.
> 
> Sometimes I think people just enjoy railing against something... Need something to argue about.
> 
> ...


As I understand it, the point being made about factory brands is not so much that there is anything wrong with it, but that it is one factor for why OM or Armida, for example, might be able to offer watches with great specs at prices that are very difficult (or impossible) for non-factory brands to compete with, and a helpful rejoinder when folks point to OM as evidence that NTH is overpriced.

Does not mean you should not buy from them, just helps explain why the higher prices of NTH or Halios, for example, are not just excess profits going straight into Doc's gold vault.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

winstoda said:


> I guess I don't get the hang-up around having to define what a microbrand is. My collection is made up of an assortment of brands from Rolex, Omega, Breitling, Seiko, Halios, Raven, NTH, one hit wonders and assorted Kickstarter pieces. I buy what I like. I don't stick my nose up at 'microbrand' pieces or Swatch group brands. I like Swiss pieces. I also like Japanese. I like watches.
> 
> Sometimes I think people just enjoy railing against something... Need something to argue about.
> 
> ...


I agree, for the most part. I'm biased towards liking microbrands more, generally, but I don't discriminate based on the size of the company, its ownership, etc. I've owned big-brand watches and factory-brand watches.

That said, there is something to be said for some sort of transparency in business. I think most of us like to feel we know who we're doing business with.

Plus - there are guys who say they won't buy micros, they'll only buy from "established" brands. There are guys who prefer to buy from micros. It seems to me that they all have their reasons, and to whatever extent some might see some advantage in buying from micros, I suspect they'd want to know if a brand was actually not all that micro.

For instance - I've seen guys say they like knowing they're supporting a small business, they like knowing they're dealing with the owner, etc. Wouldn't those guys like to know if they were in fact dealing with some random employee responding to an email sent to a factory brand?

From my perspective as a brand owner, I accept that the playing field is as level as its going to get. I can't and don't expect anyone to pay more for something just because my business may be at a disadvantage to a large conglomerate like Swatch, or competing against a factory brand with lower costs. I expect everyone to do what's best for them, buy the watches they like, etc.

I also expect people to be fair in their comparisons, but I'm frequently let down. Too often, comparisons are made based only on specs and components, with no appreciation for differences in quality. There's too little appreciation for design. There's frequently no appreciation for differences in customer support.

Too often, there's no appreciation for the customer experience, by which I mean the difference between waiting 6 months on a pre-order or being able to get something right now, or the difference between having to participate in a feeding-frenzy to get the watch you want, or being able to take your time and pick it up when you want (within reason).

The fact is, I don't see how the big conglomerates or the factory brands really have any advantage at all, other than possibly having a lower labor cost (in the case of the factory brands). If another brand can make a watch with quality equal to mine, offer support equal to mine, make it as appealing as mine, and sell it for less than I do, then I'd feel pressure to charge less for what I'm selling.

I feel no such pressure. I think the price is right, all things considered, and our turnover is all I need to know I'm right. Anything anyone else has to say about it is just a lot of hollow noise, until those turnover numbers change.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

hwa said:


> As if you didn't know that was a friendly kick
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Took it that way. Responded that way.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

dmnc said:


> It's not going to be perfect by any means. But squinting at calibrated cards must surely be better than squinting at the screen.
> 
> That said, once you get to an acceptable RGB value for on screen representation you're happy with for each of the PVD colours available it all becomes immaterial and you've saved a few hundred quid.


Out of curiosity, are the cards sold separately, or as a complete set? How much would a complete set cost?

Maybe I'm not thinking about this logically. Help me figure this out, if you can...

Rusty doesn't use Pantone colors. His program requires RGB numbers as input. I only use Pantones when dealing with specifying dial colors (because the dial suppliers do require Pantones), and when dealing with Aaron's 2D illustrations (which you guys don't often see, but we use in early design stages).

When we're considering a new PVD color, one we've never used before (or one we didn't illustrate very well before), I'm trying to compare a physical sample on steel (provided by the plating vendor, which doesn't use Pantones or RGB, or CMYK) to how a color looks on-screen. If I can nail it down to a Pantone color, I'll give that to Aaron, but convert that to RGB for Rusty.

It's not so much that we need the Pantone for our 3D renders. We really need the RGB color, but if we had the Pantone, we could convert that to an RGB value.

My screen seems to be pretty true in how it displays colors. The biggest challenge isn't really with the tool we're using, it's trying to decide which color looks the closest to the steel sample, which shifts colors as you turn it over, or based on the light.

Even if we can figure out what Pantone or RGB looks the closest, it's still a challenge to get that to look accurate in a 3D illustration, compared to real life. Sometimes it just requires some trial and error with different RGB values, but sometimes it could be something as simple as Rusty's lighting settings in the 3D program he uses.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Hanging at my boy's b-ball game. Number 15 riding pine for this shift...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## tim_herremans (Aug 19, 2018)

*NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*

Have you both calibrated your monitors with a hardware device that creates a unique icc profile? It can help prevent some issues. I have used x-rite for photography and printing work.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



tim_herremans said:


> Have you both calibrated your monitors with a hardware device that creates a unique icc profile? It can help prevent some issues. I have used x-rite for photography and printing work.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Pfffft!

Calibration.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Own multiples of Helson, NTH, OM, Armida (well, only one Armida), like them all. I sometimes get accused of liking every watch, which isn't true. Not much of a fan of tag (though I love old Heuer as my mother gave me one), power-80s, overpriced brands, etc.

Really appreciated when OM offered to assemble a Nautilus to my spec:


----------



## bbrou33 (Aug 16, 2012)

MarkND said:


> Speaking of the BSH watch, here is 42/50. I also have a BVB which probably won't get much wrist time now, given the similarities. I'll probably have to move that one.


Really great job at capturing the dial. I'm still trying to figure out how to catch mine so well










I need more wrists


----------



## MarkND (Nov 18, 2010)

bbrou33 said:


> Really great job at capturing the dial. I'm still trying to figure out how to catch mine so well
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Different angles, take a lot of pics, and having indirect light seems to help. I've had BVB for a year, so I've had some practice.


----------



## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



docvail said:


> Pfffft!
> 
> Calibration.
> 
> Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


I just had a flashback to the L&H thread right there!

Good times were had by all back then in the Golden years of this forum. You know, like...a year or two ago. Back when people said things like, "cool watch, bro, how do you like it?" and the "phantom date position" was just a twinkle in some sadist's eye.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

*Re: NTH and L&H by Janis Trading and Doc Vail*



Sonic_driftwood said:


> I just had a flashback to the L&H thread right there!
> 
> Good times were had by all back then in the Golden years of this forum. You know, like...a year or two ago. Back when people said things like, "cool watch, bro, how do you like it?" and the "phantom date position" was just a twinkle in some sadist's eye.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nostalgia ain't just a thing of the past.

I got you, fam...










Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Spartans (Mar 2, 2013)

docvail said:


> That's mighty thoughtful of you. Thanks, sincerely.
> 
> As it happens, I've been looking into alternative materials for a while, and there's one in particular I want to try, so that's on the agenda.
> 
> ...


Red-blooded, chest thumping and nationalism isn't a business plan. :roll:

The problem with manufacturing in Canada/US being competitive is that our labor rates are never going to allow anything that has anything more then 5%-8% labor content. Our 5% is Vietnams and Chinas 20%, so to be competitive with them, it's either extremely high value or extremely low labor. Even then, the metrics are going to favor third world countries because they will make up for it in low taxation, cheap loans, absolute minimum environmental, health and safety concerns.

I can't see how the watch making industry with it's multiple "hand touches" can compete. Perhaps fully automated forging, sure, but what about case finishing? Assembly? I don't know your industry numbers but if I had to guess, it's closer to 10% then 3%.

Then you have the issue of "making a better, cheaper mouse trap" because even if a company grew to match Seiko/Citizen with NA factory, one still have to beat them with price/quality.

Meanwhile, the low cost countries will start to brand and wholesale/retail. I don't know if you are familiar with the "The Rise and Fall of Schwinn: Lesson 101".

If I were in the watch manufacturing/retail business, from a "business practices" perspective, my first and foremost thought would be "creative separation". Meaning, separate myself from my competitors, not by cheaper and cheaper, a fools run into economic ruin, but by breaking into new or formally very expensive territory. Ceramic, transparent aluminum, carbon fiber, perhaps some other "exotic" material that breaks away from the ordinary. That then could be combined with a signature look.

Just an idea, I was not in your world so I don't know much more then speculate and offer a related opinion.

Good luck......


----------



## Seikogi (May 2, 2016)

do I get a pre order discount on this new nth?


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Seikogi said:


> do I get a pre order discount on this new nth?
> 
> View attachment 14827479


No, but just FYI you can pick one up for $80 over on Ali X.

Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dub Rubb (Jul 29, 2017)

Rocking #41 yet again today. Also Chris, am I right in thinking that 41-50 are all 905S and 1-40 are all 9015s? I don't recall you using the 90S5 at the time of the OG Carolina. 









Sent from my LG-M322 using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Dub Rubb said:


> Rocking #41 yet again today. Also Chris, am I right in thinking that 41-50 are all 905S and 1-40 are all 9015s? I don't recall you using the 90S5 at the time of the OG Carolina.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know.

Ask someone with one of the first 40 if they have a phantom date change position.

If they do, feel free to point at them and laugh.


----------



## Peteagus (May 14, 2011)

docvail said:


> Hanging at my boy's b-ball game. Number 15 riding pine for this shift...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"I was removing splinters from my backside" is a foolproof excuse next time his pants are off in class.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Spartans said:


> transparent aluminum


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Peteagus said:


> "I was removing splinters from my backside" is a foolproof excuse next time his pants are off in class.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That was my other, non-sporty one.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

Dub Rubb said:


> Rocking #41 yet again today. Also Chris, am I right in thinking that 41-50 are all 905S and 1-40 are all 9015s? I don't recall you using the 90S5 at the time of the OG Carolina.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Check the NTH historical archive listing. I think there is a subsection dedicated to the special editions - Carolinas, Kigers, Nazario, etc.


----------



## 3WR (May 31, 2015)

docvail said:


> Hanging at my boy's b-ball game. Number 15 riding pine for this shift...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ever notice basketball jersey numbers outside of the pros are only composed of digits 0-5? Because the refs don't have enough fingers.

Whatever. The dudes on Deadliest Catch have the same number of fingers (well, maybe not all of them do. Rough business out there on deck) and are signaling crab counts well up into the hundreds.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Spartans said:


> Doc,
> 
> I don't know if you saw my last post before the thread was nuked....
> 
> ...


Is exotic tech casings what the affordable crowd want? Titanium i can imagine there's a small following for (me being one of them), but ceramic? I'm presuming that the price goes up and there are associated problems......


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

NTH Barracuda Vintage Black still on duty.......










Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## justin_omt (Oct 29, 2019)

docvail said:


> In fact, I did no such thing, but it's nice to see you're still trolling.
> 
> I was quick to say I can't prove OM is factory-owned, and explained why. I edited my earlier post in which I said that. I thanked Justin for chiming in, and provided him with some advice about how to put those persistent rumors to rest, once and for all. Some might say that was very considerate of me.
> 
> ...


Full of Non-Sense

We are not start up brand. 
Discussed about our production in FB or IG. We are not invisible as your saying.
That's easy to prove what I said.
You only choose the sign fit your story. 
Port some number no idea where those came from.

- I have FB account but all my friends and family there.
I want to keep it private. 
- I don't have LinkedIn 
- I said I met forum owners/members/bloggers. Didn't said I meet other brand owners
- We are base in Hong Kong not base in China

We released 1 - 2 models every year. And the reproduction of previous model.
Not 1 model every 2 years.


----------



## dmnc (Sep 20, 2015)

docvail said:


> Out of curiosity, are the cards sold separately, or as a complete set? How much would a complete set cost?
> 
> Maybe I'm not thinking about this logically. Help me figure this out, if you can...
> 
> ...


They come as a set. The normal one is something like $150. Then there are further sets, with different finishes etc.

Now you've explained your process a bit more, I suspect actually using them would just bring more frustration. Not all Pantone colours are representable in RGB and to convert accurately you need to understand the output colour profile. There's a reasonable likelihood that you find a swatch that you're happy with and then have to poorly approximate it anyway.

Given your goal is output from the 3D package, which is likely introducing all sorts of transformations itself based on lighting conditions and so on, trial and error with a well calibrated monitor may well be as good as you'll get. I think you previously said there were less than a dozen PVD colours available anyway, so I'm guessing you've worked out a good value for most of them by now.

One potential alternative to try might be comparing a nice neutral photo to the render, both on the same screen. That way you take the monitor out of the equation somewhat.


----------



## Davekaye90 (Jun 7, 2017)

docvail said:


> I keep reminding my wife how awesome it used to be, when it was just me, her, and the dog.
> 
> Those were good times...


Pictures of my son and daughter. Their names are vacations and sleep.


----------



## Spartans (Mar 2, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Is exotic tech casings what the affordable crowd want? Titanium i can imagine there's a small following for (me being one of them), but ceramic? I'm presuming that the price goes up and there are associated problems......


No ceramic for you? How about transparent aluminum case?

https://hackaday.com/2018/04/03/whats-the-deal-with-transparent-aluminum/

It took me three years of RnD to develop a new product line. It wasn't some exotic product, simply a new and cheaper way to make a better existing commodity product. It's the ONLY way we in NA can beat "cheap, cheaper, cheapest" offshoring.

So Doc, when do I order that see-through cased automatic? Or a $300 ceramic cased quartz? ;-)


----------



## Danielc117 (Jan 31, 2020)

I bought myself a skipjack for Christmas and have been enjoying it so much that I decided to make an account just to say how great of a watch it is. The build quality is phenomenal and I love the lume.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Trying for a better shot to capture the gilt......










Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Danielc117 said:


> I bought myself a skipjack for Christmas and have been enjoying it so much that I decided to make an account just to say how great of a watch it is. The build quality is phenomenal and I love the lume.
> View attachment 14828171
> View attachment 14828173


Awesome first post.

Happy to hear you like the watch. Let us know if it gives you any trouble.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

dmnc said:


> They come as a set. The normal one is something like $150. Then there are further sets, with different finishes etc.
> 
> Now you've explained your process a bit more, I suspect actually using them would just bring more frustration. Not all Pantone colours are representable in RGB and to convert accurately you need to understand the output colour profile.


In my world, we have Pantone spot color books in both coated and uncoated, CMYK with PMS approximations in coated and uncoated, a separate sampler with fluorescent spot colors, and we are contemplating buying a metallic ink book for coated stock. A little while back, I found that their tint book was now out of print, so I bought the latest one I could fine, second-hand, and it was $175.

Glad it's not my money.

Best way we found to do color conversions is to do design in CMYK color space. If we ever need to do RGB conversion for print, we convert to CMYK and then check the pantone CMYK book for closest match. Since we're usually off by some percentage on a few of the colors, we then crank in the actual PMS CMYK color for which we have a printed sample, and compare it to what we are seeing on screen vs. the raw RGB conversion. And that gives us an idea of what we are going to see in print.

Luckily, as a previous boss said, we're not doing lipstick advertising or National Geographic photography, so if we don't hit a color spot-on, not the end of the world...


----------



## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Wish I was down here in FL for better reasons, but currently back home in ME, we just don't have color like this going on... or orchids growing off palm trees...


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> In my world, we have Pantone spot color books in both coated and uncoated, CMYK with PMS approximations in coated and uncoated, a separate sampler with fluorescent spot colors, and we are contemplating buying a metallic ink book for coated stock. A little while back, I found that their tint book was now out of print, so I bought the latest one I could fine, second-hand, and it was $175.
> 
> Glad it's not my money.
> 
> ...


Everything you have said makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me.......:-!

Stop making so much fuss over colours.......


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Not looking to drag this out more than necessary, but...
> 
> Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm nearly certain I've seen you say they were "overpriced", using that exact term. But even if not, merely saying they "could/should be cheaper" seems like a subtle distinction without a meaningful difference.
> 
> ...


The point I've attempted to make, and clearly failed at is this. What makes nth and it's price differ from Astor and Banks, Monta and others you have mentioned is you. Docvail. You spend so much time banging the drum of what value you produce, how you offer such amazing value and "you should charge more", "if anything they are priced to low ", all the threads about costs going up etc.. They are all designed to allow you to say that you produce a great watch and sell it for the lowest possible price to allow you to make money and let us get a good product. Very few if any brands discuss price like you do and I think it's at your determent to do so.

I think $650 is fair to pay for an nth sub. When compared to more expensive watches the cheaper can always be made to seem a value. But when all said watches come from the same/similar supply chains we can make much more clear comparisons. I don't think there is value in nth in regards to other micros. Obris Morgan, Zelos, EMG, Helm, Borealis. I would wager your product costs the same to produce as any of those or maybe even less because you have bigger volume. I have ZERO problems paying your asking price. I have issues with you trying to say it's a great value when it's clear in regards to other micros you are higher. You sold them @$400(pre-order is a distinction without a difference ) they are now $650. I clearly don't have a problem paying the asking price, I just don't need to be told that I'm getting a deal because the evidence that's out there says I'm not. I don't know why this stance is controversial.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrjes (Dec 29, 2012)

mconlonx said:


> In my world, we have Pantone spot color books in both coated and uncoated, CMYK with PMS approximations in coated and uncoated, a separate sampler with fluorescent spot colors, and we are contemplating buying a metallic ink book for coated stock. A little while back, I found that their tint book was now out of print, so I bought the latest one I could fine, second-hand, and it was $175.
> 
> Glad it's not my money.
> 
> ...


Specifying a pantone color, based on a book, and receiving just that would be easy peasy. It is however most probably not that simple, with yes not always meaning yes and a bit of "what you get is what you get" thrown into the mix. The magic lies in getting what you want, all things considered. And that is probably why people like doc are doing ok.


----------



## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

JLS36 said:


> The point I've attempted to make, and clearly failed at is this. What makes nth and it's price differ from Astor and Banks, Monta and others you have mentioned is you. Docvail. You spend so much time banging the drum of what value you produce, how you offer such amazing value and "you should charge more", "if anything they are priced to low ", all the threads about costs going up etc.. They are all designed to allow you to say that you produce a great watch and sell it for the lowest possible price to allow you to make money and let us get a good product. Very few if any brands discuss price like you do and I think it's at your determent to do so.
> 
> I think $650 is fair to pay for an nth sub. When compared to more expensive watches the cheaper can always be made to seem a value. But when all said watches come from the same/similar supply chains we can make much more clear comparisons. I don't think there is value in nth in regards to other micros. Obris Morgan, Zelos, EMG, Helm, Borealis. I would wager your product costs the same to produce as any of those or maybe even less because you have bigger volume. I have ZERO problems paying your asking price. I have issues with you trying to say it's a great value when it's clear in regards to other micros you are higher. You sold them @$400(pre-order is a distinction without a difference ) they are now $650. I clearly don't have a problem paying the asking price, I just don't need to be told that I'm getting a deal because the evidence that's out there says I'm not. I don't know why this stance is controversial.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Based on your comments here I have to ask, what do the other micro brand owners have to say about their watches, prices, manufacturing, etc here on WUS? I ask this because docvail can't be the only owner here to interact with his customers (and fanbois, and of course the requisite haters). I mean when he's here, typing his famous walls of text in response to inquires, complaints, praise, condemnation, etc where are the other owners? Are they interacting with their customer base and in doing so, drawing the same criticism and accusations that NTH and vail are subject to?

Now just to be fair, I don't own an NTH, or any micro (well, a Ticino but that's a different story) nor do I know the doc, I just pop in now and then and read what's going on in the affordables and his thread is always busy so I read it, and I read the other (now deleted) thread. My point is that, in all that I've read the only opinion I have developed about NTH and vail is that it appears he makes a decent product at a decent price. For me, there's nothing in his line that attracts me enough to warrant me buying any of his watches, yet. I check every now and then to see and likely will continue to do so, but I'm more of a vintage guy but who knows.

As I pointed out earlier on, with doc on WUS as often as he is, and interacting with most everyone who posts (or at least the ones he feels need addressing) discussions are guaranteed to eventually come around to pricing, whether from fans and customers commenting and of course, from others who feel that NTH prices are unfair, over-priced, exorbitant or a complete rip-off and of course, off doc goes, great walls of text, explaining, usually patiently, sometimes angrily, not so much justifying his prices but explaining how he runs his business, what all is involved in from start to sales. Honestly he's shared more information about his business (and his recent posts about his digital footprint and how 'real' he is) than anyone should ever be expected to, especially online where weird ass crazies linger and troll. The above stated, can you or anybody else point out any other microbrand owner, any other watch manufacturer, who is not just online here, but is online here constantly answering questions, explaining, interacting and in general being the WUS watch nerd extraordinaire he appears to be? I mean it, is there another one online here doing what doc does? Or is he the only one with a huge presence, we're talking CEO, President, Chief Operations and Bull Shjte Officer or whatever title he goes by, on WUS or any other forum? If not then the people that seem to be popping up like mushrooms to take potshots at him and his operation appear to be sad people who enjoy trying to piss in other people's cereal bowls because...I don't know, what possible reason do people have to do such middle school behavior?

I get it's the internet, and I get the doc doesn't need anybody defending him, least of all a nobody like me but, after reading these threads even I, not an NTH fanboi but just enjoying a lot of the threads and comments and plain old nonsense that's just good old internet cray cray reached a limit where the constant attacks by a few people harping on the same things over and over, despite verbose explanations by doc tell me that it has gone well beyond business and VFM and has settled down into a nasty trollzilla extrvaganza of which the internet is so well known for. In fact I bet if doc hadn't already pointed out where to find info on him that someone here would have already doxxed him because...internet warrior


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> The point I've attempted to make, and clearly failed at is this. What makes nth and it's price differ from Astor and Banks, Monta and others you have mentioned is you. Docvail. You spend so much time banging the drum of what value you produce, how you offer such amazing value and "you should charge more", "if anything they are priced to low ", all the threads about costs going up etc.. They are all designed to allow you to say that you produce a great watch and sell it for the lowest possible price to allow you to make money and let us get a good product. Very few if any brands discuss price like you do and I think it's at your determent to do so.
> 
> I think $650 is fair to pay for an nth sub. When compared to more expensive watches the cheaper can always be made to seem a value. But when all said watches come from the same/similar supply chains we can make much more clear comparisons. I don't think there is value in nth in regards to other micros. Obris Morgan, Zelos, EMG, Helm, Borealis. I would wager your product costs the same to produce as any of those or maybe even less because you have bigger volume. I have ZERO problems paying your asking price. I have issues with you trying to say it's a great value when it's clear in regards to other micros you are higher. You sold them @$400(pre-order is a distinction without a difference ) they are now $650. I clearly don't have a problem paying the asking price, I just don't need to be told that I'm getting a deal because the evidence that's out there says I'm not. I don't know why this stance is controversial.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Ugh...why are you still here?

I say my watches are good value when guys like you can't stop saying they're poor value. I love how you try to turn my response to your trolling into another reason to hate on the brand.

I've lost count how many times I've tried to explain to you that even with an identical list of specs and components, there can be noticeable differences in quality, and quality comes at a cost. Even if two brands are sourcing the same component from the same supplier, there are quality and cost differences.

I was encouraged when you admitted the Obris Morgan you have isn't as well finished as your NTH, and for a brief moment, I thought perhaps reality was sinking in for you, but...nope, you're as obtuse as you've always appeared.

I don't know the person or people behind Astor & Banks, but I've spoken to Justin from Monta a handful of times. I have a pretty good idea what their production costs are, and some idea what their operating costs must be. I am certain they produce a quality product, and provide outstanding service. And if anything, they're under-pricing, just as most small brands tend to to.

Judging by what I've read people say about A&B, my hunch is they're also under-pricing. NTH is often under-pricing too. You're comparing brands that underprice a little to ones that are drastically underpriced, and saying the ones that are almost-but-not-quite fairly priced are poor value.

It's insane. At what point is the business allowed to make money? At what point do you just write a brand off entirely, and go away? Please tell me we're at that point.

I don't know if your issue is that you're just cheap, just can't afford them, just don't like me, or what, but given the way you troll, I'll never understand why you bought an NTH, and wish you'd let me buy it back from you, with the promise you'd go away forever after. But, it seems you want to have your NTH and trash it too, so here you are.

If you prefer Obris Morgan, Zelos, EMG, Helm, or Borealis, great. Go buy those watches, and while you're at it, go pester those brand owners (if you can find them all - some are kinda low profile). No doubt they'll be thrilled to discuss their watches with you, and perhaps you can get them to tell you all about their costs, since you seem so interested in mine.

Good day, sir.

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

The price, vfm discussion will role on and on. What I don't get is why some are so bent on going at this subject, if you don't think its vfm then don't buy it or worry about it. If you want one but object to the price, buy pre-owned or swallow it up....... 

From a personal perspective I think that the NTH subs offer value for money (even with the import duty in the UK.....) because I get a watch that's perfect for me. Value isn't totally objective is it? No one else produces a watch like either the NTH Näcken Modern Black or the NTH Barracuda Vintage Black do they? The former is the closest I can get to a 40mm homage of the Pelagos. And I'm not going to pay +£3k for a BB58 so the latter is perfect. And I'm willing to pay the asking price cause it seems good value to me. 

Take Tudor, I do love most of what they produce, and I'm sure you could level the same criticism (whether it's true or not) that they are upping their prices to include the cachet that the brand name gives. Take the same argument to Rolex, Omega, etc. Doc can charge what he wants and if that includes a premium for providing what people want so be it. Obris Morgan does not do anything that I'd want to wear, so I don't care if they are cheaper, doesn't matter. He's running a business and he'll charge what he thinks the market can stand, if he prices too high he'll know as his sales will plummet...... 

If Doc is running a successful business and making money then it's likely he'll keep on producing product that'll grab my interest. Maybe if I badger him enough he'll see the light and make a 40mm Titanium sub with female SELs and a clasp with an integrated divers expansion.......:roll:

......apologies for a slightly rambling post


----------



## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Aluminum Oxynitride. That is all.


----------



## Omegafanboy (Jan 30, 2010)

An oldie but a goodie









Sent from my SM-G390F using Tapatalk


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Andrjes said:


> Specifying a pantone color, based on a book, and receiving just that would be easy peasy. It is however most probably not that simple, with yes not always meaning yes and a bit of "what you get is what you get" thrown into the mix. The magic lies in getting what you want, all things considered. And that is probably why people like doc are doing ok.


All that is true, plus there's this...

The colors we get from the plating vendor can have some small variations from one batch to another. Black is usually black, but even if we nail the color in our 3D illustrations, those blues, grays and browns can look a little different than the samples do when we get the watches out of production.

Which is why I started out saying we may end up having to go back and re-do the illustrations once we get the watches. It's the same with the lume colors. White is white, but anything else, the appearance can vary with the underlying surface, so we often go through some trial and error before we get it right in the illustrations.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

docvail said:


> Ugh...why are you still here?
> 
> I say my watches are good value when guys like you can't stop saying they're poor value. I love how you try to turn my response to your trolling into another reason to hate on the brand.
> 
> ...


I should just give up, but I will give it one last shot then move on from this topic. I am not saying your watches aren't good, I am not saying your price is not fair I am not saying other brands are better values or superior. I in fact enjoy the heck out of my tikuna and I paid full retail. My point is and has been that you(Vail) discuss price(and what you get compared to other brands etc..) and thus make it a topic of debate and inspection(if you open the door to compare to OM then you have it there). The other brands do not(mostly) and it seems to benefit them. I am comfortable paying whatever I want for a watch if I like that design. I am fully aware that the production costs of my NTH, Astor and Banks and Obris Morgan are all likely very similar but yet all have different retail prices(obviously I prefer paying Obris Morgan prices to Monta prices, but there is more to a watch than just production costs(we agree on that)). I contend you make your price a subject of debate by the rhetoric you choose. It's not a bash of your product(I liked your product so much I bought it), but you opened the door to the value proposistion with your posts about value so I walked through it. That's it that's my whole point(point: your statements on value in regards to other brands is where i take exception, because you share the same chain of supply that borealis, zelos, OM and others).


----------



## fx2243 (Jun 12, 2017)

Hornet99 said:


> From a personal perspective I think that the NTH subs offer value for money (even with the import duty in the UK.....) because I get a watch that's perfect for me. Value isn't totally objective is it? No one else produces a watch like either the NTH Näcken Modern Black or the NTH Barracuda Vintage Black do they? The former is the closest I can get to a 40mm homage of the Pelagos. And I'm not going to pay +£3k for a BB58 so the latter is perfect. And I'm willing to pay the asking price cause it seems good value to me.


This is the crux of the matter that people can't seem to get into their heads.

Do I like the watch? Yes
Do I consider it a good price? Yes
Do I care what other people think? No

Then buy the effin watch and enjoy it, stop moaning.

If you answered no to q.2 then don't buy the effin watch and move on.

Its really not that difficult to grasp!


----------



## ^Gurthang54 (Oct 5, 2018)

On the subject of watch cases made in the US. Do any watch manufacturers use EDM (electro-discharge machining) to produce cases? 

Local job shop has several EDM units for producing gas and steam turbine parts, the finished parts are incredibly detailed and smooth. I know that EDM is a slow process and uses some fairly exotic bits so the cost is $$$$$. Also uncertain if a watch case is too small a workpiece. 

The advantage w/ EDM is it can machine hard / difficult steels (Inconel being one type) and even hardened steel and titanium.


----------



## fx2243 (Jun 12, 2017)

^Gurthang54 said:


> On the subject of watch cases made in the US. Do any watch manufacturers use EDM (electro-discharge machining) to produce cases?
> 
> Also uncertain if a watch case is too small a workpiece.


Very interesting, just had a quick search and it looks like medical implants are made using this technique, so watch cases wouldn't be a problem. Not cheap though.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

JLS36 said:


> I should just give up, but I will give it one last shot then move on from this topic. I am not saying your watches aren't good, I am not saying your price is not fair *I am not saying other brands are better values* or superior...











Seriously, go back and read your own posts. That's *EXACTLY* what you said.

Yes, you should just give up. In fact, you should have done that long ago.



JLS36 said:


> I in fact enjoy the heck out of my tikuna and I paid full retail. My point is and has been that you(Vail) discuss price(and what you get compared to other brands etc..) and thus make it a topic of debate and inspection(if you open the door to compare to OM then you have it there).


I discuss price when you and others confront me about my price.

Don't dump your $hlt in my yard, pal, and tell me it's mine.



JLS36 said:


> The other brands do not(mostly) and it seems to benefit them.


I guarantee, if another brand owner was actively engaging with their customers, and a handful of people insisted on constantly telling them the brand's watches were overpriced, or not good value, or however you want to describe whatever you've been saying, eventually, those brand owners would respond.

I imagine I've been more patient and tolerant than many others would have been, particularly with you.



JLS36 said:


> I am comfortable paying whatever I want for a watch if I like that design.


You have a funny way of showing it.



JLS36 said:


> I am fully aware that the production costs of my NTH, Astor and Banks and Obris Morgan are all likely very similar but yet all have different retail prices(obviously I prefer paying Obris Morgan prices to Monta prices, but there is more to a watch than just production costs(we agree on that)).


You're fully unaware.

The production costs are NOT the same. I know this, for a fact. You know nothing about it, which makes your insistence that you do all the more astonishing.



JLS36 said:


> I contend you make your price a subject of debate by the rhetoric you choose.


So when you say the watches are overpriced (not good VFM, whatever), here, in this thread, or in others where NTH comes up, and I respond to you, I'm making price a subject of debate.

Got it.

By "rhetoric", I take it you mean technical terms, like production costs, quality, components, margins, markups, customer service - that sort of thing?

You make it sound like I run around beating my chest about what great value my watches are, compared to other brands. The opposite is actually true. I've told you and others, repeatedly, that they're NOT good value compared to EXACTLY the brands you and they throw out when making those comparisons.

I go on - those brands make great watches. They're great quality. I think those brands could and should charge MORE.

I've always been consistent, to the best of my ability, when I explain how and why costs/prices can vary, based on multiple factors. I've never said anything remotely like, "_____ quality is crap," or "_____'s support is terrible." I don't mention other brands by name like that. I only use their names when *YOU* and others like you bring them up (which you do, constantly).

But even then, I don't put any of those brands down. You said NTH's finishing was better than OM's. I didn't say that, you did. All I said was better finishing comes at a higher price. Quit putting your $hlt on me. It's your $hlt, not mine.



JLS36 said:


> It's not a bash of your product(I liked your product so much I bought it), but you opened the door to the value proposistion with your posts about value so I walked through it. That's it that's my whole point(point: your statements on value in regards to other brands is where i take exception, because you share the same chain of supply that borealis, zelos, OM and others).


It's not a bash of the product? So...it's just a bash of me? Why bash it, or me?

You keep trying to turn this around, like I go around talking about how good NTH's value is compared to those brands. I don't. You keep saying how bad our value is compared to those brands.

You take exception when I respond to explain why our prices are what they are, because apparently you've got an unhealthy fixation with me and my business, or you just can't take it when a brand owner pays you the courtesy of proving a response to your incessant whinging. If anyone else tries to reason with you, you say they're part of a cult of personality, fanboys who follow me with religious zeal, and say *THEY* can't stand when anyone disagrees with *THEM*.

We don't all share the same supply chain. I've told you that many times.

Since you're so quick to demand proof of me, whenever I say anything, where's your proof??? Can you offer one shred of evidence that I share a supply chain with all those brands (plus Monta and A&B, according to you)?

There are HUNDREDS of vendors in this business, maybe thousands. Why would you think all these brands share all the same vendors???

I know which other brands my vendors support. I know some of the vendors which support some other brands. As I've told you repeatedly, even if two brands use the same vendor for the same component, there can be different levels of quality and different costs. I actually went through this EXACT issue with a fellow brand owner, using some of the same vendors, but getting lower quality, because they weren't paying what I do.

You simply don't get it, but since you said you plan to move on from this topic, please, move on. In fact, you'd be doing me a favor if you moved on from this thread. And you'd make my day if you moved that watch on, to anyone, if you won't sell it to me. I don't want you enjoying my team's work after all your bull$hlt.


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

fx2243 said:


> This is the crux of the matter that people can't seem to get into their heads.
> 
> Do I like the watch? Yes
> Do I consider it a good price? Yes
> ...


I made this a while ago...


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

^Gurthang54 said:


> On the subject of watch cases made in the US. Do any watch manufacturers use EDM (electro-discharge machining) to produce cases?
> 
> Local job shop has several EDM units for producing gas and steam turbine parts, the finished parts are incredibly detailed and smooth. I know that EDM is a slow process and uses some fairly exotic bits so the cost is $$$$$. Also uncertain if a watch case is too small a workpiece.
> 
> The advantage w/ EDM is it can machine hard / difficult steels (Inconel being one type) and even hardened steel and titanium.


......you had me with Titanium.


----------



## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

fx2243 said:


> Very interesting, just had a quick search and it looks like medical implants are made using this technique, so watch cases wouldn't be a problem. Not cheap though.


Let's get all exotic and go for laser metal deposition...... |>


----------



## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Please let this be the last I have to explain myself, for having discussed prices...

People used to complain about the bracelets and clasps. We improved the bracelets and clasps.

People complained about the accuracy. We improved the accuracy.

Over the course of the last seven years, I've always listened to what customers had to say, and done my best to make improvements to both the product and our service, while also trying to keep the product "affordable". Every time we did anything which added cost, I made sure it was something that most people would actually notice, and see the value in it. 

I brought on two designers, a watchmaker, a virtual assistant, outsourced order fulfillment, and expanded into retail distribution. The designs have gotten better, QC standards are higher, our support response and turnaround times are shorter, our shipping costs are lower, and the overall purchasing experience has gotten better.

There's nothing left for me to improve, unless people are willing to accept a disproportionate increase in price, in exchange for the incremental improvement you might receive.

The vast majority of the feedback I get suggests the product and service are outstanding for what we charge. There's really only one thing left for people to complain about - the price.

This is where we ended up. Prices and quality went up together, over time, to the point we get a steady flow of people who can't afford it, or don't see the value in it, or just feel like it should be less, because they say so, because reasons.

I can't count how many times I've said, if you don't like the product enough to pay the asking price, don't buy it. Go buy something else, if that will make you happy. 

Dude, go find happiness. If reading what I post gets under your skin, then don't read it. 

If the Tikuna makes you happy, then just wear it, and be happy. Don't get wrapped around the axle worrying about whether or not it actually is good value, or whether or not the brand owner thinks or says it's good value. Of course the brand owner believes in his own product (you'd hope so). 

I believe in the work my team is doing. I believe the product is fairly priced, given its quality, and the way we support it. You're allowed to disagree. You're not allowed to constantly piss in my ear about it, and tell me I asked you to. I'd remember it if I did.


----------



## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Thoughts on where (if anywhere) to go next on my Subs collection?
Current line up is:

- Nazario white
- Nazario black (ghost not the original)
- Nazario blue
- Dolphin silver (ice)
- Barracuda brown

Seems to me I have all the basic/available colors represented. Used to have a white Nacken also but deemed it too repetitive of the Suaro. And I guess theres those orange Zwaard somethings, but I cannot get down with Flyers colors ever, on anything (from Pittsburgh). I suppose if one of the original Nazarios with the black waffle were to pop up in good condition at a reasonable price I would consider it to complete the set.

May just have to wait until that glorious L&H Orthos red makes its way to a sub. Lets call it Nacken Red Alert. Here's hoping. Who's in?


----------



## Weetabix (Jun 10, 2018)

Hornet99 said:


> Everything you have said makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me.......:-!
> 
> Stop making so much fuss over colours.......


My wife tries to describe a color to me, and I ask, "Can I find it in ROYGBIV? If not, you're on your own."


----------

